Thursday Volume 568 17 October 2013 No. 57

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 17 October 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 865 17 OCTOBER 2013 866

of the last Government, when we saw the number of House of Commons companies reduced. Under this Government, competition is increasing. I would urge people who are disappointed Thursday 17 October 2013 by increases from their energy company to shop around and switch, because there are some very good deals out there. The House met at half-past Nine o’clock Mrs Glindon: Last week the Prime Minister said that PRAYERS Labour had definitely “struck a chord” on energy prices and that [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] “There’s a certain amount you can do freezing prices,” so will the Minister freeze prices, which will benefit Oral Answers to Questions more than 47,000 households in my constituency? Mr Davey: The hon. Lady was obviously not at Prime Minister’s questions yesterday, because the Prime Minister ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE called it a con, and he is right. Labour’s energy price freeze is a con. Let me explain to the Opposition why it is a con, because when people see a politician promising The Secretary of State was asked— something for nothing, they do not believe them. The Energy Bills policy cannot control prices before Labour’s price freeze and it cannot control prices after it, so energy companies 1. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): What steps he is are likely to hike prices before and after. Consumers will taking to help households with their energy bills. be worse off as a result of such a measure. [900513] Ian Lavery: Energy bills have already risen by £300 and 6. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): What are set to increase by perhaps another £100 this year. In steps he is taking to help households with their energy my constituency, more than 36,000 people would benefit bills. [900520] if the Government took action to freeze bills this year, which could save up to £120 per household. Why will 18. Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): What steps he is the Government not stop defending the big six companies taking to help households with their energy bills. and other companies, and get on the side of the consumers [900537] and help them out this winter? The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey): With your permission, Mr Speaker, Mr Davey: We are on the side of the consumer, I would like to group this question with several others. I because we are promoting competition. The hon. am taking many steps to help, which come under three Gentleman and his party, through their price freeze, will broad categories. hurt competition. Let me explain it to him. Whereas we have seen companies entering the market under this Mr Speaker: Order. I think the Secretary of State is Government, a price freeze would hurt small suppliers. seeking to group this question with Questions 6 and 18. If he doubts my word, he should listen to the small I understand the concept of the broad brush, but it can suppliers themselves. Nigel Cornwall, of the Energy be taken a bit far. We need greater specificity. Suppliers Forum, says that Labour’s policy “ignores real progress made in increasing competition in the Mr Davey: As always, I am very grateful for your market over recent years”. advice, Mr Speaker, as I am sure the House is, too. Small suppliers do not like Labour’s policy because they I will start again. I am taking many steps to help know it would hurt consumers. households with their energy bills. Those steps come under three broad categories: first, direct help for millions Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): Does my of people, with money off their bills and money to help right hon. Friend agree that nobody suffers more than to pay their bills, through the warm home discount, consumers in rural areas that are off grid? The ECO winter fuel payments and cold weather payments; secondly, system was supposed to ensure that 15% of the funding energy efficiency, to help people to cut their bills by went to upgrade hard-to-reach homes in rural areas, wasting less energy, through the energy company obligation, but the evidence on the ground is that the big six are the green deal and smart meters; and thirdly, competition. unwilling to assist with supplying new oil-fired liquefied I am intervening to make electricity and gas markets in petroleum gas boilers. Given that energy bills are more the UK ever more competitive, so that energy companies than 50% higher in off-grid areas, will he raise the issue cannot exploit people through market power. with the energy companies and ensure that all households Ian Lucas: Does the Secretary of State think that can receive help? SSE’s proposed increase of 8.2% is reasonable? Mr Davey: My hon. Friend raises an interesting question. Mr Davey: Of course I am disappointed by energy Almost all aspects of the energy company obligation companies that are putting up their prices. The key are working well, but the rural sub-obligation—the bit thing is competition, and we in this Government have he is referring to—is not working so well, and we are pushed competition hard. The big six were the creation looking at how it can be improved. 867 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 868

Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): The Opposition policy that is a con; he says everyone will be put on the want to have their cake and eat it. They say they want to cheapest tariff, but is it not a fact that 90% of people decarbonise the energy market, yet they also say they do will see no benefit from his policy at all? not want people to pay for it. Can my right hon. Friend bring some reality and honesty to the argument and tell Mr Davey: Millions are seeing benefits from our us how we decarbonise the economy while at the same policy of competition. The right hon. Lady has made a time trying to keep costs to consumers to a minimum? very interesting point today. In response to our charge that Labour’s policy is a con, because energy companies Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The could push up bills beforehand and after, she said that Energy Bill and electricity market reform do just that. Labour would take action if they do. Does that mean He may be interested to know that we have today asked that she is going to introduce full price regulation? Is the Leader of the Opposition 10 questions about Labour’s Labour now promising that, because that is the implication policy. If we look at it, we find that it is not only a con of what she said? that will reduce competition and hurt the small suppliers, it will hurt investment, too, which is needed to keep Energy Efficiency energy security and to decarbonise. Labour’s policy is economically illiterate. 3. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): What Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): SSE’s 8.2% steps he is taking to help households improve their average price increase—we should remember that some energy efficiency. [900516] people have to pay more than that—is unacceptable when the company is boasting on its website about the 11. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): What large dividends it pays out to its shareholders every steps he is taking to help households improve their year. I see competition as the answer. Will my right hon. energy efficiency. [900525] Friend tell my constituents what concrete steps are being taken to improve competition and when they will 16. Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): be able to have a much wider choice than they have at What steps he is taking to help households improve the moment? their energy efficiency. [900534]

Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. When The Minister of State, Department of Energy and big energy companies make these high price rises, I Climate Change (Gregory Barker): For the first time would urge all their customers to look at the competition ever, the UK now has a national energy efficiency available. There is a lot of choice out there. In fact, there strategy. This is something no Government have put in is far more choice than there has been for a long place before. Helping to cut energy bills is at the heart of time—possibly ever. The last Government killed choice this drive through the green deal, energy company and reduced competition; under this Government, we obligation, electricity market reform, smart meter roll-out have seen a big increase. and support for innovation, research and development. They all demonstrate the Government’s determination Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): Let me tell the to drive unprecedented investment into energy efficiency. Secretary of State that if Labour is elected, our price freeze will happen, and if companies collude to increase Alex Cunningham: I think that just 25 people have prices beforehand, we will take action. The right hon. benefited from the green deal in my constituency so far, Gentleman is the one in government, so if companies but thousands of people across Stockton-on-Tees could try to hike up their prices beyond anything that can be have warmer homes thanks to a tremendous project to justified before 2015, will he stop them—yes or no? externally clad their homes run by the borough council and deliverer partner, Go Warm. This has attracted Mr Davey: We will help customers to get the best £20 million of investment and 300 jobs. Sadly, a legal deals. The right hon. Lady knows that. She knows that judgment means that BT is the only company that can on the current market, customers can get much better remove the eyelets that support the wires in the houses deals than those offered by the big six. She knows that that are benefiting from the scheme. This is slowing the the number of small suppliers has increased. She knows programme down because of insufficient resources to that in 2011 there were no independent suppliers with do the work in a reasonable time. Will the Minister more than 50,000 customers. Thanks to our policies, please intervene, tell BT to get its act together, get the there are now three with more than 100,000 and a work done more quickly and give my constituents the further seven companies have entered the market in the warmth they deserve? last two years. That is the choice; that is the solution: people can cut their bills significantly by changing Gregory Barker: The hon. Gentleman raises a legitimate supplier. point about BT. I will certainly look at this in more detail and would be happy to meet him to discuss it. We Caroline Flint: There you have it, Mr Speaker: every want to press ahead. We have an ambitious efficiency single time, this Government put the energy companies programme, which is led by the energy company obligation. before consumers. According to figures from the House We believe that through a combination of the ECO and of Commons Library, energy prices are rising three the green deal, nearly 250,000 people will have seen times faster under this Government than under the last their homes improve by Christmas. Labour Government. Our price freeze will save money for 27 million households and 2.4 million businesses Ann McKechin: Fuel poverty is increasing, but the while we reset the market. It is the right hon. Gentleman’s amount of money spent on energy efficiency programmes 869 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 870 directed at the fuel poor has decreased by 50% since Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): A 2010. Is it not time that the Minister changed his report by Anna Walker did a huge amount to improve priorities? energy and water efficiency. What are the Government doing to educate people, and to advise them not to heat Gregory Barker: The hon. Lady seems to be confusing water beyond what they use and to become more energy the record of the coalition with that of the last Government. and water-efficient? During the last Parliament, fuel poverty rose in every single year; under the coalition, it has fallen in every Gregory Barker: Any green deal assessment will feature year. [Interruption.] The definition has not been changed a number of recommendations. We have found that yet. It will be changed next year, on a cross-party basis. people are very pleased with their assessments. More than 80,000 people have had a green deal survey, and We still have a great deal to do, but this Government 81% said that as a result of a survey they had taken are rolling up their sleeves and making a difference, action, would be taking action or were currently taking unlike the last Government. They had the chance to action, while 72% said that they were recommending deal with fuel poverty, but it rose in every single year of the green deal to their friends. It is still early days, but the last Parliament. the green deal, with its range of measures from handy tips to big structural changes in homes, is the way forward. Luciana Berger: The Government forecast that the green deal and the energy company obligation would Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I have been create 60,000 jobs, but earlier this year the Insulation contacted by a pensioner constituent whose annual Industry Forum confirmed that more than 4,000 jobs heating bill is £700. He lives in a terraced house in the had been lost during the transition to the ECO. Just the middle of Kettering with a solid wall that requires other week, Carillion, a leading green deal provider, external insulation and rendering. He has been in touch was forced to announce a restructuring that is expected with 17 local companies, and has been told that he must to lead to further job losses in the green deal sector. pay between £4,000 and £15,000 to get the work done That is a disaster for the workers who are affected, for and that the green deal is not available to help with that their families, and for our low-carbon industry. Can the type of work. Can the Minister please advise? Minister confirm the number of people who have lost their jobs since the scheme was launched, and can he Gregory Barker: That is very puzzling, because the explain why this is happening? ECO, which is designed to complement the green deal, has exactly that sort of consumer in mind. I should be Gregory Barker: We are certainly seeing a change in happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss his constituent the industry, and we expect to see a structural change. and see how we can help. New companies are now entering the market. The growth that we are seeing is not in the big energy companies Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ created by the last Labour Government, but in the small Co-op): During the passage of the Energy Bill I raised and medium-sized enterprises, the independents and with the Minister the way that the Government’s policy entrepreneurs who are being championed by the coalition. on simplifying tariffs is resulting in some customers The ECO is helping more than 215,000 households, and paying more. Ofgem’s recommendation of the we expect it—in combination with other measures—to reintroduction of standing charges is resulting in some enable nearly a quarter of a million homes to benefit customers who are energy-efficient, increasing, rather from insulation, and from a range of new products that than lowering, their bills. That cannot be right. Why were not available before, by the end of the year. cannot the Government look into it?

Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con): Does my right hon. Gregory Barker: I am sorry, but I did not catch all of Friend agree that fuel poverty would be worsened if the the hon. Gentleman’s question. He raises a serious cost of the capital required for the billions of pounds of point, however, and I will be very happy to talk to him new investment rose because of heightened political in more detail about our tariff plans. This is a Government risk associated with the United Kingdom? Indeed, is who are taking real action to simplify tariffs, to get on that not exactly what the Leader of the Opposition has the side of the consumer and to deliver better value for achieved? Surely his comments will make fuel poverty money after years of inactivity and inaction under the worse. last Labour Government. Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): Gregory Barker: My hon. Friend, who has huge Because this Government will not stand up to the experience in these matters, is absolutely right. Labour’s energy companies, Ministers in other Departments are policy would scorch investment. According to an analysis clearly eyeing up the ECO scheme that funds energy-saving by Cornwall Energy, which leads the monthly forum for measures as a short-term, although counter-productive, independent energy companies, Labour’s policy is “wrong”, way to reduce bills, but is not the poor running of the and ECO scheme by Ministers what has made it so vulnerable? “based on imperfect information, flawed assumptions and emotion, It is too bureaucratic, it is not geographically focused which will cost the consumer dearly. There are at least five and it does not prioritise the genuinely fuel-poor. What significant problems with it.” is the Minister going to do to sort it out? Labour’s policy would indeed have an impact on the cost of capital and on investment, and consumers— Gregory Barker: First, may I welcome the hon. particularly vulnerable consumers—would be left to Gentleman to his post? I am not sure whether he is the pick up the pieces. 10th or 11th member of the Labour party I have had 871 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 872 opposite me on the Labour Front-Bench, but I hope he single onshore and offshore wind turbine we currently has a long stay on the Opposition Front-Bench—a very have. Given that, will he assure the House that there will long stay indeed. not be a further 10-year delay in respect of future The hon. Gentleman’s criticisms of the ECO are nuclear stations? misplaced. I am not saying it is perfect, and as we go forward we will always look to improve the scheme, but, Michael Fallon: Nuclear power is a very important as I said earlier, we anticipate that between 215,000 and part of our energy mix and of our future energy security, 230,000 homes will be helped by the ECO by Christmas which makes it all the more criminal that nothing was this year—that is nearly a quarter of a million families done for the long, long period of the Labour Government benefiting from warmer homes and cheaper bills. I will to replace the nuclear stations that are coming offline in be very happy to organise a briefing for the hon. Gentleman, the late 2020s and 2030s. so next time he can, perhaps, come to questions a little better prepped. UK Energy Market

Nuclear Power 5. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): What recent assessment he has made of the 4. Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): What competitiveness of the UK energy market. [900518] progress he has made on encouraging investment in new nuclear power. [900517] The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey): I keep the competitiveness of the The Minister of State, Department of Energy and UK energy market under constant review and have Climate Change (Michael Fallon): The Government are acted to make it more competitive. In retail markets, committed to securing the right conditions for investment where companies are supplying customers, we have in new nuclear power in the UK. This is the first nuclear acted by deregulating to increase the number of suppliers programme in a generation and it is progressing well, and by reforming bills and tariffs. In wholesale markets, with projects to build new power plants moving forward where companies are selling power they are generating with EDF, Horizon Nuclear Power and NuGen. Between to suppliers, Ofgem measures and measures in the Energy them, those projects involve plans to develop at least Bill will boost competition and market access for 12 new reactors on five different sites. independent generators across the UK. Mr Jones: My constituents are extremely concerned Chi Onwurah: Npower told my constituent Alan Gowers, about future energy prices and continuity of supply. a pensioner, that his tariff was ending and his new one With one fifth of UK generating capacity due to come would be 50% more expensive. SSE estimated that my offline within the next decade, does the Minister agree spend would go up by 10% and so it tripled my direct that we need to bring forward this new nuclear capacity debits. I have worked in competition regulation for six as a matter of extreme urgency? years and I can tell the Secretary of State that this is not Michael Fallon: Yes, I do. We are living with the a competitive market. When a market is not functioning— legacy of 13 wasted years in which absolutely nothing when it is fuelling a cost of living crisis—do a Government was done to replace our ageing nuclear stations. Under who stand up for people not intervene? this coalition Government plans are now progressing, as I said, and we have every prospect of 12 new reactors Mr Davey: We are intervening, because the market we on five separate sites. inherited from the previous Government was not as competitive as it should have been. Before Labour’s Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) previous energy market reforms, there were three generators (LD): The Minister will know that I am not a convert to and 14 suppliers—17 companies—but after those reforms nuclear power, but I accept that the coalition Government the number went down to six, so Labour reduced have done a deal that says there will be no nuclear competition. Labour is the party of the big six. This power that has public subsidy—so public subsidy will coalition Government have acted to make sure that we not be provided. How is the Government’s position have competition to take on the big six, so the hon. reconcilable with an application for derogation from the Lady should speak to her Front Benchers because Labour EU rules on state aid? is the party of non-competitive energy markets—the party of the big six—whereas our coalition Government Michael Fallon: My right hon. Friend the Secretary are taking on the big six. of State’s predecessor set out to this House the circumstances in which support would be offered for Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): the new nuclear technology we are negotiating on with As part of the competition assessment, the Secretary of EDF in respect of Hinkley C. When we conclude those State could do worse than visit the workers at Ineos at negotiations—which I hope we will do very shortly—we Grangemouth, who supply the energy needs for the will, of course, report the details of the investment whole of Scotland and, indeed, the north of England, contract to the House. I also note that the party of my and whose jobs are now under threat from a belligerent right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old employer that has walked away from talks with the Southwark (Simon Hughes) is now a supporter of nuclear trade unions and, more seriously, is now demanding power. taxpayers’ money in order to invest in the company.

David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): The Minister Mr Davey: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s may be aware that when Hinkley Point C comes onstream question. I hope he will be reassured by the fact that I it will produce as much electricity in a year as every have spoken personally both to key Unite trade union 873 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 874 leaders and to Ineos. We persuaded them to go into not just to west Sussex but across the country is as ACAS talks. I regret that those talks have broken down, tough as any regulatory regime anywhere in the world but I urge both parties to resume them and try to and we keep it under review to ensure that it remains resolve this situation without industrial dispute. May I that tough. He might be interested to learn that the take this opportunity to say that, working with the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation Scottish Government and industry, we have done everything and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks we can to make sure that if there is a dispute, the fuel (Michael Fallon), as Energy Minister, will meet west will flow through Scotland’s economy? Sussex MPs next week to discuss the issue.

Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ Renewable Energy Co-op): My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) gave two of the 8. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): What proportion many examples that hon. Members could give of how of UK energy demand is met by renewable sources. the retail energy market is not working in the interests [900522] of households or businesses. Ensuring that all power trading is on an open exchange and stopping companies The Minister of State, Department of Energy and selling power to themselves at secret prices, as we are Climate Change (Gregory Barker): In 2012, under the proposing, will reset the market, encourage other entrants measure used for the 2009 EU renewable energy directive, and ensure that people know why they are paying what renewable sources contributed 4.1% of gross final energy they are paying. Will the Minister confirm the speculation consumption. In terms of renewable electricity, however, in The Times at the weekend that his Government will the share of overall generation has more than doubled shortly perform a welcome U-turn and adopt our proposal in the last three years, from 6% in the second quarter of to introduce a pool that will bring clarity, fairness and 2010, when the Labour party left government, to 15.5% transparency to the UK retail energy market? in the second quarter of 2013.

Mr Davey: No, we will not, because we have got a Jeremy Lefroy: I welcome that answer from my right much better policy. Working with Ofgem and in the hon. Friend. Alstom in my constituency supplies component Energy Bill, as the hon. Gentleman ought to know now, parts for turbines used in tidal lagoons, such as those we are tackling the real problem in the wholesale market—a proposed by Tidal Lagoon Power, a consortium of problem that the previous Labour Government completely which Alstom is a member. What is my right hon. failed to deal with. Interestingly, Labour’s new policy Friend doing to support such tidal projects, which reverses the policy that Labour implemented in government generate clean electricity and provide critical base load —talk about confused; never have an Opposition been energy? so confused in their policies. Gregory Barker: My hon. Friend will know that this Exploratory Drilling (Balcombe, West Sussex) Government have put much greater emphasis on driving forward the efforts to develop the potential for marine 7. Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): What progress energy around our shoreline. We have created two marine has been made on exploratory drilling in Balcombe, energy parks to do that. Tidal lagoon is a very interesting West Sussex. [900521] technology. The project in Swansea is at a pre-planning application stage, so I cannot give a specific answer on The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change that project, but we are interested in working on research (Mr Edward Davey): The licence holder, Cuadrilla, has and development to drive the technology forward. drilled a well, including a horizontal section, in accordance with the planning permission granted by West Sussex Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I county council, to explore for oil. Apart from the scrutiny do not know whether the Minister is as early a riser as I by the planning authority, the proposals were subject to am, but on “Farming Today” there was a poor farmer scrutiny by the Environment Agency, the Health and who had been encouraged by a £1 million grant to grow Safety Executive and my Department to ensure that the willow and miscanthus. There is no market for it, nor operations are safe and that the environment is protected. great storage for it, so what kind of policy is that? Will the Minister listen to that programme, even if he has to Nicholas Soames: My right hon. Friend will know listen to it on iPlayer, and do something about farmers that Balcombe lies in the constituency of my right hon. who are trying to contribute to renewable energy? Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), who, as a Cabinet Minister, is unable to ask parliamentary Gregory Barker: A poor farmer with a £1 million questions. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the grant seems a slight oxymoron, but I am sure that the exploratory drilling at Balcombe was, as he said, subject hon. Gentleman is making a real point. I will happily to the most rigorous monitoring and regulation, that look into the programme he mentions, but I regularly further detailed regulatory approvals would be needed meet the National Farmers Union, the Country Land before fracking could take place and that the recovery and Business Association and a range of stakeholders of these valuable energy resources will not override the with an interest in bioenergy. We are making great need for local residents’ understandable concerns to be progress under this Government and picking up the heard and registered? slack left by the last.

Mr Davey: My right hon. Friend will know that I Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Huddersfield have spoken to our right hon. Friend about that. We (Mr Sheerman) is wittering away from a sedentary have also ensured that the regulatory regime applying position and meanwhile the right hon. Member for 875 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 876

Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) is chuntering about the Michael Fallon: We have not ruled that out for the merits of cricket bats. I have not yet had the pleasure of second stage. A number of proposals have been put to observing the right hon. Gentleman bat, but I feel sure us for new interconnectors, and we are looking at each that that delight awaits me in due course. of them.

Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): If The Times Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): As a result is correct that the nuclear industry will receive twice the of weak competition and ineffective regulation, electricity wholesale price for electricity, what are the implications prices in Britain—according to the Department’s own for renewable energy, and does that mean that we can figures—are the sixth highest in the EU15, the third continue to grow the sector? highest in the G7 and almost 20% above the EU15 and G7 average. The Minister will know that energy bills are Gregory Barker: The thing about this Government’s the second biggest cost that businesses face, and that energy policy is that we want a range of technologies. ever higher prices cost jobs and deter investment. Why Energy security will come from diversity, and we are will he not support Labour’s policy to stop unfair price committed to driving forward the nuclear programme rises by freezing energy bills until January 2017, saving in a way that the previous Labour Government did not, the average business some £1,800, and reform the energy but not to the exclusion or detriment of significant market to reintroduce competition and rebuild trust? investment in a range of other technologies, including, importantly, renewables and energy efficiency. Michael Fallon: I welcome the hon. Lady to her new Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): What are the Government responsibilities. I think that the prices she quoted were doing to ensure that the investment in the renewable pre-tax rather than post-tax, but the answer is simple—to industry paid for by UK taxpayers and UK energy bill bear down on prices, we need more competition. The payers results in jobs in the UK, not jobs elsewhere? Labour party left us with the big six. It started with 14 retailers; we ended up with the big six. The answer is Gregory Barker: That is a very good question. We are more competition, easier switching and ensuring that doing a great deal more than the previous Government. the most vulnerable people are placed on the lowest The London Array, for example, was a fantastic installation, possible tariff. but it is a shame that 80% of it was constructed and contracted abroad. We now have an industrial strategy. Wind Energy We are working in partnership with the industry to establish, mobilise and grow a supply chain here in the 10. Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): UK. Only if we have a really vibrant UK supply chain is What assessment he has made of the adequacy of the roll-out of renewables at scale genuinely sustainable. support for offshore and onshore wind energy. [900524]

European Energy Markets 12. Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy 9. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): What steps he is of government subsidy for onshore wind farms. taking to promote competition in European energy [900528] markets. [900523] The Minister of State, Department of Energy and The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Michael Fallon): Support for onshore Climate Change (Michael Fallon): The Government strongly and offshore wind projects is provided under the renewables support a competitive and better connected energy market obligation and, from next year, under contracts for across Europe. Increased competition can put downward difference. Support rates take account of the costs of pressure on energy prices in the long term and help us each technology, and are intended to be sufficient to maintain secure supplies. We are involved in a number support delivery of our renewable energy and carbon of areas to drive competition, including the development reduction targets, while minimising costs to consumers. of EU-wide market rules, regional infrastructure initiatives and cross-border projects, including more interconnectors. Mr Ellwood: I am grateful for that reply. I hope that Neil Carmichael: I thank my right hon. Friend for the Minister agrees with me that Bournemouth is one of that expansive answer. Does the Minister agree that, in the most attractive and popular seaside resorts in Britain. contrast to Labour’s energy price con, the Government’s Whatever one’s views, tourism is important to the town focus on more competition through the single market and the area, but many of my constituents are concerned by enhancing the role of energy within that market is about the visual impact of the proposed offshore wind right? farm in Poole bay. There are many questions such as how many turbines will be built, the exact locations and Michael Fallon: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, how high they will be. I would be grateful for a meeting and I could not have put it better. I shall be pursuing with the Minister to discuss this important matter. these issues later this afternoon in Brussels in the Commission. Michael Fallon: I am very much aware of my hon. Friend’s strong concerns about the proposal. No application Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Why has been made, but let me assure him that the visual have the Government failed to include interconnection impact and acceptability of any installation is one of with Europe as part of the capacity payment arrangements the factors that would be considered by the planning that they recently announced as part of the DECC inspectorate and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of implementation programme? State in determining any application of this kind. 877 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 878

Andrea Leadsom: I am grateful to my right hon. policy making can afford to ignore these trends? What Friend for his reply on the subject of subsidies, but would be the risks and consequences if we attempted to given that the Secretary of State for Communities and do so? Local Government has said that current planning applications give Gregory Barker: This Government are very clear that “insufficient weight...tolocal environmental considerations like we will continue to drive forward the decarbonisation of landscape, heritage and local amenity”,—[Official Report, 10 October the energy sector and of the wider economy, consistent 2013; Vol. 568, c. 31W.] with meeting our targets in the Climate Change Act, does he agree that the subsidies provided to developers which we are committed to. But we need to make sure need to take account of the very real local concerns that we do that in a way that keeps our industry competitive, about how these things are blighting the countryside? does not put a burden on consumers and is consistent with growing prosperity. I think this coalition is absolutely Michael Fallon: We have reduced the support for up to that job. onshore wind projects from April this year and the draft strike prices that we have set out are reduced over time Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Why, then, did the up until 2018, but the new planning policy framework British Government this week help Germany scupper a makes it clear that local authorities should have policies very important European agreement on reducing CO2 in place to ensure that any adverse impacts, including emissions from the most polluting vehicles? visual impacts and cumulative impacts, are addressed satisfactorily. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of Gregory Barker: We did not. [Interruption.] State for Communities and Local Government has made it clear that he intends now to call in more applications Mr Speaker: Order. I think I heard the right hon. at appeal to ensure that the new planning practice Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) make an allegation guidance is meeting the Government’s intentions. of dishonesty. I must ask him to withdraw that word. I think he used a three-letter word which implied direct Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): May I dishonesty. advise the Minister that while the incentives are clearly proving sufficient to encourage a number of prominent Mr Bradshaw: I apologise, Mr Speaker, but perhaps local Conservatives to apply for wind farms to be built the Minister could clarify how Britain voted. on land in Northumberland, what concerns many of my constituents is whether landscape, which the Minister Mr Speaker: We cannot continue the debate in that mentioned, and proximity to residences can be taken way. Topical questions will continue the exchange, but I properly into account at every stage in the planning must ask the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw that process? word.

Michael Fallon: Yes. I want to reassure my right hon. Mr Bradshaw: I happily withdraw it. Friend. Planning applications in respect of onshore wind should be approved only if the impacts are acceptable Mr Speaker: I am most grateful to the right hon. to the local community. The new planning guidance Gentleman. All these matters will be aired further, I am from the Department for Communities and Local sure. Government helps to deliver the balance that we expect, ensuring that proper weight is given to the visual impact, Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): It the cumulative impact and any heritage implications for is true that emissions are down both from this country particular sites. and in Europe, but the contribution of Europe and the United Kingdom to atmospheric carbon dioxide is Carbon Reduction Targets increasing because of imported manufactured goods. What is the Minister going to do about that? 13. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): What progress his Department is making towards the UK’s carbon Gregory Barker: The hon. Gentleman does have a reduction targets. [900529] point. Ultimately, we will not defeat dangerous manmade climate change unless there is a global solution. Although The Minister of State, Department of Energy and we can play our part, the important thing is that we Climate Change (Gregory Barker): The Government are secure a global deal involving all the major economies, fully committed to meeting the greenhouse gas emissions particularly China, America and the other fast-growing reduction targets set out in the Climate Change Act developing economies, and get everybody on a sustainable 2008, and I am pleased to tell the House that the UK is economic path. That is why we are putting more and now 25% below 1990 emissions levels and on track to more effort into securing a meaningful, robust global meet our 2020 34% reduction target. treaty in 2015.

Andrew George: Many people query why that is Energy Support (Northumberland) important. The recently published Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change fifth assessment report confirms 14. Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): What steps his both the nature and the scale of climate change and Department is taking to ensure that residents of human contribution to it. Does my right hon. Friend Northumberland who are off the grid have sufficient believe that any Government engaged in evidence-based support during cold weather this winter. [900531] 879 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 880

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Michael Fallon): The Government want Climate Change (Gregory Barker): This year the green everybody to be able to access secure and affordable deal and the energy company obligation have already fuel supplies for heating their homes. This year’s “Buy transformed the homes of 216,000 low-income and oil early” campaign was launched on 11 September to vulnerable households, cutting bills and keeping people encourage consumers to stock up early and join oil-buying warm. Additionally, this winter our warm home discount groups, where cost savings can be found. I will continue scheme will pay out to 2 million households, including to work through the all-party group and the ministerial over 1 million of the poorest pensioners. The Government roundtable on off-gas grid issues to see what further have also permanently increased cold weather payments action is required. to £25 a week, and all pensioners will receive winter fuel payments. Guy Opperman: I thank the Minister for that answer. Our concern should particularly be for vulnerable residents Andrew Stephenson: I thank the Minister for that caught out by sudden spring cold snaps. Does he agree answer. My constituents want practical help with energy that there is scope for a pilot project in Northumberland bills, not a rearrangement of the deckchairs at the in which a consortium of oil-buying clubs, parish councils regulator, Ofgem. Will he confirm what steps the and credit unions could be funded to assist such residents? Government are taking to help my most vulnerable constituents keep warm this winter? Michael Fallon: Yes; we very much welcome the development of local initiatives that can help promote a Gregory Barker: Absolutely. There will be no return more affordable supply of heating oil to consumers. I to the 1970s under this Government. We will offer look forward to seeing my hon. Friend’s final proposals practical help to people struggling with energy bills. for a pilot project in Northumberland and will then ask This winter, as I have said, that means: a warm home my officials to consider what support might be made discount worth £135 for 2 million households, including available to assist him in taking it forward. 1.1 million pensioners; guaranteed winter fuel payments for all pensioners; and cold weather payments permanently EU Anti-dumping Tariffs uprated to £25. Of course, we are also rolling out the most ambitious energy efficiency programme to date, 15. Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): What which I am sure will be of great help to my hon. assessment he has made of the potential effects of Friend’s constituents. proposed EU anti-dumping tariffs applicable to solar PV cells manufactured in China; and if he will make a Topical Questions statement. [900533]

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and T1. [900538] Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) Climate Change (Gregory Barker): Following a robust (Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental intervention from the UK, including a delegation of responsibilities. key industry players that I took to Brussels, the European Commission has negotiated an agreement with Chinese The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change exporters that is a significant improvement on the initial (Mr Edward Davey): Since the last Energy and Climate EU position. The agreement should mean that we will Change questions we have been busy. The Energy Bill is not undermine the future of the UK solar PV industry continuing its progress through Parliament and we hope or deprive UK consumers of the benefits of cheaper that it will achieve Royal Assent by the end of the year. solar panels. That will help deliver the modernised infrastructure and cleaner energy that the country needs to meet our Michael Fabricant: I thank my hon. Friend for that energy security requirements and climate change obligations. answer. It is good to hear that he stands up not only to The House might be interested to know the latest figures the energy companies, but to the European Commission. we have on investment: we have seen at least £35 billion Does he not agree that if the European Commission invested in increased electricity infrastructure alone since had had its way, its tariffs would have not only been 2010, a 56% year-on-year increase in renewable energy inflationary, but damaged the photovoltaic industry, investment and a doubling of renewable electricity which does so much good in employing people in this generation under this Government. Also, our policies to country? help the fuel poor are in place for the winter.

Gregory Barker: How typical of my hon. Friend to Steve McCabe: Pensioner Val Soames has been in align himself with an energy source driven by sunshine. touch to advise me that E.ON has told her that it is I am grateful to him for pointing this out. The UK’s scrapping its fixed-rate StayWarm pensioner tariff as a solar sector now has a strong future, thanks to our result of Government policy, just in time to increase the reforms. It is affordable for consumers, who pay for the bills of thousands of pensioners this winter. When subsidy through their bills, and it is now scalable. We exactly did the Minister last speak to E.ON about this are working with the industry to drive down the costs problem, and how is he going to put it right? and make this an attractive proposition for consumers up and down the country. Mr Davey: I speak to E.ON and other energy suppliers and generators frequently. We are looking at the tariff Fuel Poverty reforms to make sure that they deliver the competitive markets that Ofgem believes they will. We believe that 17. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): What steps he a large number of people will be really benefited by has taken to reduce fuel poverty this winter. [900536] these reforms. 881 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 882

T3. [900540] Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): The energy does not automatically override environmental Government are rightly encouraging investment in protections and the planning concerns of local communities. energy infrastructure by institutional investors through I want to see our guidance in force, and I will be writing initiatives such as the Treasury’s pensions infrastructure to local planning bosses to make sure that they take it platform. Will the Minister’s Department tell the Treasury on board. how important it is that that investment in infrastructure is low-carbon and compatible with our overall climate T2. [900539] Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): Under change goals, and will he welcome ShareAction’s campaign this Government, according to Ofgem’s latest figures, to encourage institutional investors to invest in truly average household fuel bills have increased by £315 a green energy futures? year, while wholesale energy prices have gone up by just £145 a year. That leaves a gap of £170 a year. How Mr Davey: My hon. Friend knows that we are a much of that is made up by the extra tax taken by the champion of low-carbon energy investment. I strongly Government from consumers, and how much by higher welcome ShareAction’s campaign to promote responsible profits taken by the energy companies? investment by pension funds and fund managers. People who operate these pension funds should think long term, and there is no longer-term problem and challenge Mr Davey: The hon. Gentleman will know that the for the people they are investing for than climate change. vast majority of the rises in people’s bills have come from wholesale prices, as he said, and network cost Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): During these questions rises. He should know that a bill is made up of a host of British Gas has announced that from 23 November it things: the biggest portion is wholesale and the next will increase its gas prices by 8.4% and its electricity biggest is network cost. They are the big cost measures prices by 10.4%. This is the company that, with Centrica, that people are unfortunately experiencing. has passed on the highest share of its profits to its shareholders while making the least amount of investment T7. [900544] Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) into what we need to ensure our energy security in (Con): In my constituency there are two major future. Two years ago the accountancy firm BDO warned brick-manufacturing companies. As hon. Members will that the big six energy companies could be under-reporting know, brick making is highly energy-intensive, and I their profits and recommended tighter rules, but the am concerned that, without action, increased energy Government and Ofgem failed to act. We backed the costs will make their product potentially unaffordable new rules, and so did a recent Select Committee report, to the construction industry, which is getting on with but in their response all the Government could say was, the essential task of building the homes we desperately “Government is not in a position to comment.” Why need. What is my right hon. Friend doing to address will not the Secretary of State stand up for consumers, this urgent and pressing issue? support Labour’s price freeze and make the energy companies tell us exactly how much money they are The Minister of State, Department of Energy and earning? Climate Change (Michael Fallon): I will certainly look at my hon. Friend’s specific points about the brick Mr Davey: First, that is extremely disappointing news industry. We have an energy-intensive industries support for British Gas customers. British Gas will need to scheme and are already making payments under it. We justify its decision openly and transparently to bill-payers. hope to conclude further payments by the end of this British Gas was the only energy company not to meet month. I will certainly see what can be done to help the its targets under the previous obligation to make its brick-making industry and see whether it can be included customers’ homes more energy-efficient. That left more in our measures. homes cold and its customers paying over the odds. British Gas has form in failing to meet its targets, the last of which was set by Labour. I hope that the right T5. [900542] Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth hon. Lady will join me in making sure that British Gas and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): On the question asked is more transparent about its costs. We are pushing by my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley competition, and I urge British Gas customers who are (Caroline Flint) about British Gas price rises, will the unhappy to change their supplier. Secretary of State explain how British Gas has increased its operating profit to nearly £1.6 billion, as T4. [900541] Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) announced in June 2013, and yet people around the (Con): I welcome the emphasis on microgeneration, country will now see their prices rise by 8% and 10%? including ground-source and air-source heat pumps, How can that be fair to this country’s consumers? plus deploying solar PV on rooftops and brownfield When will the Government get a grip on this and sites where appropriate, and I recognise its potential, finally do something about it? but what is being done to stop deployment of the unwanted large-scale ground-mounted PV farms? Mr Davey: We are doing things about it. Not only are we promoting competition and urging people who are The Minister of State, Department of Energy and unhappy with suppliers such as British Gas to change Climate Change (Gregory Barker): My hon. Friend and choose others—there are plenty out there, thanks makes a good point. We have an ambitious plan for to this and not the hon. Gentleman’s Government—but solar, focused on rooftops, on-site generation and brownfield we are also making sure that the energy companies are sites. That is why this summer we toughened up the more transparent. I urge British Gas to publish and be planning guidance, distributed it to local authorities, more transparent about the increased policy costs that and made it absolutely clear that the need for renewable it is blaming for these bill rises. We have looked at its 883 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 884 initial figures and question whether the policy costs, shutdown of the refinery and petrochemical plant has which it claims are putting up the bill, are the root been done deliberately. It must be urged to start up the cause. plant again and to take the knife from the throat of the workers and the gun from the head of the Scottish T9. [900547] Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): people. Given the importance that the Minister has placed on converting coal-fired power stations to biomass, Mr Davey: I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a including the plans for those in Drax and Eggborough close interest in this matter and is a voice of moderation. in my constituency, and also in the light of National He knows that I have worked hard to get the ACAS Grid’s winter outlook report, which states that capacity talks going. They did get going, but unfortunately they reserves could be as low as 5%, will he update the broke down. I repeat my request that all sides get House on the progress of those two strategically around the table and resolve the matter without a important projects? dispute. I am pleased that Unite called off the strike. We have been working with the Scottish Government and Michael Fallon: We recognise the importance of biomass the industry to ensure that Scotland gets the petrol, projects such as those in my hon. Friend’s constituency. diesel and heating oil that it needs. We included draft strike prices for biomass in the prices we published at the end of June and we expect to Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): When confirm them by the end of the year. We hope that will the Government publish the Atkins report and between 1 GW and 4 GW of biomass will come onstream. their response so that we can begin to unlock the huge potential in Cornwall and the UK for deep geothermal T8. [900546] Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): The energy? Minister previously promised me that he would discuss cold alarms with the energy suppliers and let me know Mr Davey: That is an important report. I cannot give their response, but he has not. With people choosing my hon. Friend an exact time, but it will be published between heating and eating, and with prices ridiculously relatively shortly. high, will he please now tell me what progress he has made on cold alarms, which will alert vulnerable people Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): Given the and their carers when temperatures become dangerously announcement from British Gas, would the Secretary low and prevent more unnecessary deaths this winter? of State not be best advised, rather than just expressing disappointment and urging transparency, to send out Gregory Barker: I apologise to the hon. Lady. I am the message that there will come a point when he will not sure whether she actually wrote to me, which I intervene on these companies that are jacking up prices? invited her to do following her question. I will look at At what point will he intervene? the issue again after these questions to see where we are, and I will write to her later today. Mr Davey: I have done more than that from the Dispatch Box. I have said to British Gas customers that Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): Will the Minister if they are worried about the prices, they should change confirm that he is continuing to work with industry to supplier. A range of competitors and alternative suppliers agree a long-term strategy for the offshore wind sector are offering much better deals. By the way, those suppliers that will secure large-scale private investment and create are there because of the actions of this Government. In thousands of jobs in my constituency and other coastal 2011, no other independent supplier could compete constituencies? with British Gas and SSE, and none had more than 50,000 customers. We now have strong, independent Michael Fallon: We have an offshore wind industrial suppliers that customers can turn to and I urge them to strategy, which we published earlier this summer, and I do so. look forward to taking it forward with the Offshore Wind Industry Council, which I co-chair. Offshore wind Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): In welcoming the is part of the energy mix. We have put draft strike prices new solar road map, in which the Minister sets out out for consultation, which has now closed, and we are guiding principles for the appropriate siting of solar PV, analysing the responses. We expect to confirm the final may I ask what added protection from solar farms the strike prices for offshore wind by the end of the year. road map gives to green-belt land?

Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): Gregory Barker: The road map sets out our industrial A missive from Ineos Grangemouth, which supplies strategy. The right place to protect important areas such 80% of the fuel for Scotland and the north of England as the green belt, areas of outstanding natural beauty and accounts for 10% of the gross national product of and grade 1 agricultural land, about which we care Scotland, says that the plant is passionately, must be the planning process. In particular, “shut and will remain shut”. we must ensure that local people have a proper say. That I have kept all Ministers informed through the Secretary is why I am reminding local planning authorities that of State for Scotland, as well as those on the Opposition they have a duty to enforce that. Front Bench. The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change said earlier that he wanted people to Mr Speaker: I do not know why the hon. Member for get back to ACAS. However, he has also made it clear Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) was that supplies will still get through to Scotland by other not heard with his first question, but I hope that he will means. The company has prepared for this and the cold be heard this time. 885 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 886

Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Mr Davey: We believe, and there is a huge amount of Co-op): A number of times today, the Secretary of evidence for this, that the Ofgem reforms will lead to State and his Ministers have defended the policy of more competition, because they will get rid of a lot of simplifying tariffs for energy customers, but they have the confusion and complexity. The last Government not once addressed the fact that low energy users, who failed to act on the multitude of tariffs, which have got are often people on low incomes, are worse off because in the way of the consumer’s ability to choose. There of the recommendation from Ofgem to reintroduce may well be a few people who see an increase in tariffs standing charges. Will he look at that issue and ask in the short term because of Ofgem’s reforms, but Ofgem to reconsider the policy that it appears to be because of the extra competition that will bear down on imposing on the energy suppliers? prices, the majority of people will get a better deal. 887 17 OCTOBER 2013 Al-Madinah Free School 888

Al-Madinah Free School those concerns before signing a funding agreement for the school? Why have Ministers allowed a school to be run by large numbers of unqualified staff? Why have 10.33 am Ministers sanctioned “dangerous levels” of safety and Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab) (Urgent behaviour, and why have they allowed children with Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Education special educational needs to be left to struggle? In a city to make a statement on the failings of the Al-Madinah where every child needs to be supported and educated free school revealed in the Ofsted inspection report. to the highest possible level, the Education Secretary has sacrificed learning for ideology.It is not just Al-Madinah The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): I welcome school that is dysfunctional; it is the Education Secretary’s this opportunity to make a statement on the Al-Madinah free schools policy. free school, and I apologise to the House for the absence of the Secretary of State, who is abroad. We have Mr Laws: The support of the Labour party for free received the letter that the hon. Gentleman sent to the schools did not last long, did it? I do not know how the Secretary of State on 15 October, raising issues relating hon. Gentleman has the nerve to come to the House. to that school, and Lord Nash and I will respond to it On Sunday he was going around television studios and shortly. saying that Labour was shifting its position on free schools. He said: The Al-Madinah free school serves children and young “We will keep those free schools going”. people between the ages of 4 and 16 in the Derby city community, and it has been open for just a year. After a Within the same set of Department for Education press steady start by the school we became aware of potential cuttings in which he announced he was shifting his breaches of the conditions in its funding agreement late position in favour of free schools, we find a headline this summer, and at the end of July we began a wide-ranging stating that Labour now plans to rein in free schools. It investigation into the financial management and governance is complete and utter incoherence from the hon. Gentleman, of the school. We investigated whether it was delivering and he should be ashamed. on its commitment to be inclusive, and we investigated Let me respond in detail to every single serious point allegations about the imposition of a dress requirement the hon. Gentleman made—it will not take very long—and on female members of staff. Our investigations did go back over what has happened in Al-Madinah school indeed find significant and numerous breaches of the and the scrutiny to which it has been subjected. The conditions in the school’s funding agreement, and our school opened in September 2012. It had a pre-registration concerns were such that we requested Ofsted to bring Ofsted report, as all such schools do—such a report is forward its planned inspection. not sensational. In the report, Ofsted set down a number The Ofsted report is published this morning. It found of requirements that it wanted met before the school that the school is dysfunctional, and inadequate across opened. In advance of the school opening, the trust every category of inspection: achievement of pupils; went through the requirements with the lead contact in quality of teaching; behaviour and safety of pupils; and the Department for Education. It produced certificates leadership and management. We were already taking to show that it had done the safeguarding and first aid decisive action before we received the Ofsted report. training, and a certificate—[Interruption.] The shadow Lord Nash wrote to the chair of the trust on 8 October, Secretary of State ought to listen to this. The school following the previous investigations, and set out all the produced a certificate authorised by the director of requirements for the trust to take swift and decisive planning and transportation at Derby city council saying actions to deal with the serious concerns. We have been that the building was fit for occupation. After that, the clear with the trust that failure to do so promptly will Department sent an adviser to the school two months result in the school’s funding being terminated. We have after it opened, who saw the good progress that the also been clear that the trust must address all the school was making at that stage. breaches identified. We will not let any school, whether In July 2013, we became aware of concerns about a free school, an academy, or a local authority school, equalities and management issues at the school and languish in failure. The Ofsted report confirms that we acted immediately on that. We established an Education are taking the right actions. We are not prepared to Funding Agency financial investigation into the school allow a school to fail its parents, its children and its and sent our advisers to it. We asked Ofsted to bring community. We said we would take swift action in these forward its inspection, which has now taken place. Prior cases, and that is exactly what we are doing. to receiving that inspection, the Under-Secretary of State, Lord Nash, wrote to the school setting out precisely Tristram Hunt: Today’s Ofsted report exposes the fact the actions that it will take, and making it clear that its that the Government’s free school programme has become funding will not continue unless it addresses those a dangerous free for all, an out-of-control, ideological things. experiment that has closed a school, leaving 400 children If the shadow Secretary of State is so supportive of losing an entire week of learning. It is a devastating free schools, why does he not have the responsibility to blow to the Education Secretary’s flagship policy, and put the failure of the school into context? Seventy-five reveals that pupils have been failed on every possible per cent. of the free schools that have opened have been measure. Parents will want to know why the Education rated good or outstanding by Ofsted. That is a higher Secretary has allowed that to happen. proportion than the proportion of local authority schools. Contrary to what the Minister said, in a pre-registration We did not hear that from the hon. Gentleman. report in July 2012, Ofsted deemed the school to be On complacency, which I believe is the allegation the failing to meet basic child protection standards, even hon. Gentleman makes, may I remind him of the record before it was opened. Why did Ministers not act on of the Labour Government whom he defends? At the 889 Al-Madinah Free School17 OCTOBER 2013 Al-Madinah Free School 890 end of their period in office, 8% of schools in this country process for new schools on how soon inspections can —more than 1,500—were rated as inadequate, many happen? What is the trigger for parents and concerned had been so for years, with no action. By focusing on parties in any school to start a process of additional one school in which the Government are taking action, inspection, and what is the speed at which that can be the hon. Gentleman is failing schools in this country, done? including ones that failed under the Labour Government, when little action was taken. Mr Laws: I assure my right hon. Friend that we are People listening to these exchanges and to the hon. following a two-pronged strategy to deal with these Gentleman, and reflecting on what he said on Sunday concerns. The Minister with responsibility for free schools, and how he has stood on his head today, will see Lord Nash, set out clearly, in a letter on 8 October to nothing other than total and utter opportunism and the chair of governors, a series of actions that are shambles from Labour’s education policy. expected to be taken by the free school in swift order— within this calendar month. We will report back to the Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): House and others on those actions, including the issues The leaked Ofsted report states that identified by Ofsted, to ensure that they have been taken and dealt with. In addition, given the highly critical “the governors have failed the parents of this community who nature of the report, Ofsted will follow up to ensure have placed their trust in them.” improvements are rapid. We will consider, very swiftly Will Ministers intervene to replace the current board of indeed, whether the governing body and the existing governors with an interim executive board? Looking to leadership have the capacity to make those improvements. the future, what steps will the Minister take to ensure that the training available to the governors of free Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The Minister will schools properly equips them for that important role? know that the majority of children who attend the school are of the Muslim faith: this is a faith school that Mr Laws: I can assure the hon. Gentleman—the is also a free school. Earlier this year, on 15 March, the Chairman of the Select Committee on Education—that Secretary of State opened the first Hindu free school Lord Nash and I are taking decisive action to ensure that is a faith school in my constituency, which I applaud that the school improves its leadership and governance. and welcome. Will he confirm that nothing he has said The hon. Gentleman will understand why I cannot go today will affect the Government’s policy if a faith into all the details of that, although the clear requirements school wishes to be a free school? are set out in the letter Lord Nash wrote to the school on 8 October, which has been published. Mr Laws: I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we will still allow faith schools to be free schools. We must Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The not lose sight of the fact that some of the best schools leaked report has rung an alarm bell. Will the right hon. are faith schools. That includes Muslim schools—both Gentleman learn the lessons from it, because what free and non-free schools—some of which have secured begins as a good idea—having unqualified and sometimes impressive levels of attainment and progress. untrained teachers in an establishment—can, in some cases, be very dangerous and damaging? May we have Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): My right hon. an explicit word from him this morning to say that, in Friend will be aware of the mess that the previous this country, no establishment and no school—this Government made of education, but he may not be should not even happen in home schooling—should aware that the chair of the education trust and chair of treat girls in a subservient way and differently from governors at Al-Madinah free school is a member of, boys? and fundraiser for, the Labour party and recently stood as a candidate in the Derby city council elections. Does Mr Laws: The hon. Gentleman, the former Chair of the Minister think the mess the school is in could have the Select Committee, is absolutely right: different treatment anything to do with a local leadership that seems to for boys and girls is unacceptable. We have made that come directly from the national Labour party? absolutely clear and required the school to change those practices immediately, for both pupils and teaching Mr Laws: What I can compare favourably is the swift staff. He is a reasonable man and will know that it is action that this Government take when we find a school sensible and responsible to draw the right conclusions that is failing. That contrasts with the previous Labour from one school, and balance them against the success Government, who had more than 1,500 schools categorised of many free schools. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent as inadequate. I do not remember any occasion where Central (Tristram Hunt) wanted to praise and associate the same scrutiny was given to those schools. himself with that success on Sunday and withdrew his support by Tuesday. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Surely this situation demonstrates the need for those working with children Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) to be properly trained and qualified. Will the Minister (LD): I declare an interest as chair of governors of change course, follow our lead and require all teachers St James’ Church of England primary school in to be qualified? Bermondsey and as a trustee of Bacon’s college in Rotherhithe. Having seen the report that states clearly Mr Laws: We want to ensure that teachers in schools four findings of inadequacy, nine significant failings have good qualifications and the capacity to teach. The and only three strengths, will the Minister tell us the hon. Lady will know, however, that there are plenty of timetable for Al-Madinah school, if it is to continue, to teachers who may not have formal qualifications but be found good, satisfactory or excellent? What is the who still do a superb job. We are ensuring, through the 891 Al-Madinah Free School17 OCTOBER 2013 Al-Madinah Free School 892

[Mr Laws] been vociferous in the national and local press about this school, because he is totally against free schools, Ofsted inspection process, that every single teacher has wants it brought within the remit of the local authority, the capability to teach. All classes are assessed for the chairman of governors, who wanted to be a Labour quality, and that is the right way to ensure a backstop of councillor, was quite happy with it? Labour’s policy is high standards. all over the place. I thought that the hon. Gentleman was at odds with the shadow Secretary of State, but Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): There are clearly he is not. 170 free schools across the country and plans for more, including one serving my constituency. Will the Minister Mr Speaker: Order. First, the question was too long; assure me that, notwithstanding this isolated case, the secondly, the Minister has absolutely no responsibility Government’s plans for these schools will go ahead so for the attendance or stance of absent or present Members. that they can continue raising standards? Perhaps we can deal holistically with the issue, rather Mr Laws: I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. than with the minutiae. The speed with which the shadow Secretary of State has stood on his head regarding Labour policy on free Mr Laws: The hon. Lady has succeeded rather well in schools will unnerve many free schools across the country highlighting the fact that anybody trying to understand and undermine the confidence of the many free schools what Labour’s policy on free schools this week would be that are doing a fantastic and innovative job. I just draw rather confused. attention to the fact that the proportion of free schools that are outstanding and good is higher than in the rest Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): of the school population, even though many of them The Minister spoke about the safeguards in place to have only been in existence for two years. prevent this sort of thing from happening, but his comments were unconvincing given that it has happened Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The Minister reports and children are suffering as a result. Will he now that his Department had concerns about this school. acknowledge that the Secretary of State in Whitehall Which other free schools does his Department have cannot possibly provide the level of scrutiny, oversight concerns about? or support that schools need and which the local community, through the local authority, is much better Mr Laws: I think the hon. Gentleman is talking placed to provide? about the concerns we identified in July and August. We acted swiftly on those, and we would act swiftly on any Mr Laws: The very fact that we are having this urgent other concerns. question about one particular school that has performed Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Is it not right very badly shows the degree of scrutiny there is on free that the Government should take action, whether a free schools. The challenge is to ensure that every other school or a Government-run school is having problems, failing school across the country has the same level of and is it not wrong to leap on one single instance of a scrutiny. problem, because it is being tackled, and blame the other 169 schools, too? Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): The failing of any school is regrettable, be it a free school or Mr Laws: The hon. Gentleman is exactly right. When non-free school, but does the Minister accept that we we consider how to intervene in failing schools, we need need to see it in the context of the success of the policy? to consider the challenge of intervening just as swiftly Can he reassure me that strong action will be taken and as we are in this school in the hundreds of other schools that the model that has worked successfully elsewhere across the country that are performing inadequately. will also be used in this case? The hard reality is that under the last Government and some previous Governments, too many inadequate schools Mr Laws: I can give precisely that assurance. I can across the country were able to sustain inadequate assure my hon. Friend that those of us on the Government performance for long periods. The challenge is to ensure Benches will not ignore and run down the achievements that the focus on this school is also on all those other of the vast majority of free schools, which have done an maintained schools, which the hon. Member for Stoke- absolutely fantastic job in the last two years. on-Trent Central seems far less attracted to focusing on. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): The local Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): The authority in this case has neither the power nor the Minister says he wants to ensure that teachers are capacity to help, so who will help the school to improve qualified and supervised, but last year his Department and take the action the Minister is requiring it to take? announced that teachers in free schools and academies did not need to be qualified to be appointed and never Mr Laws: We certainly will take action. The local did. As a result, Al-Madinah school appointed virtually authority concerned should reflect on some of the all its teachers on an unqualified basis. Does he think schools that it is responsible for in the area, many of that is any cause for reflection on the announcement he which are not good or outstanding. It should focus on made last year about unqualified teachers being acceptable? doing its job; we will do ours. Mr Laws: The governing body and the school leadership Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): Is the Minister have a clear responsibility to recruit teachers who are fit as surprised as I am that, interestingly, whereas the hon. to do the job, and if they are failing to do that, we will Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson), who has act against them. 893 Al-Madinah Free School17 OCTOBER 2013 Al-Madinah Free School 894

Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I salute the is narrowly focused on a particular school; it is with Government’s swift action on this matter. Does the that, and that alone, that we are concerned. I hope my Minister agree that it also reinforces the argument that point has now finally registered with the hon. Gentleman. we need strong and effective leadership in schools, especially through school governance? Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I thank the shadow Education Secretary for asking this urgent question Mr Laws: I certainly do. If Members, particularly on on such an important issue. We should be focusing on the Opposition Benches, reflect more carefully on this this particular school, not making party political points, issue, they will see that one of the lessons is that the although, interestingly, more Government Members are speed with which we have acted on the concerns expressed interested in this subject than Opposition Members. should be reflected in the speed with which we see Can the Minister confirm that, if necessary, he has the action in all schools that are weak. power to close the school down if it cannot be reformed?

Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) Mr Laws: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. I (Con): Will the Minister ensure that one sector of these can certainly confirm to him that we have powers to children—children with special learning difficulties—is take action against the school, as Lord Nash has already looked after more than others? They are the ones who made very clear in his letter. suffer most in any school that this happens to. Will he ensure through his office that those children get adequate Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Parents cover while this period of uncertainty continues? will have pressed for the Al-Madinah free school to be established because they felt that the school would Mr Laws: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to provide a suitable education for their children. I am put the spotlight on the young people in the school, reassured by the actions already taken, but will the whose concerns need to be top of our list of priorities. Minister also ensure that pre-applications are thoroughly We will ensure that those with special needs—indeed, scrutinised? all the pupils—are properly catered for through this period, which is one reason why Lord Nash has acted so Mr Laws: I will certainly give my hon. Friend that swiftly to ensure that the school resolves the outstanding assurance. We scrutinise free school applications very problems. carefully and reject many of them for a variety of different reasons. We will continue to scrutinise them George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): The free school very closely. revolution has triggered a renaissance of educational Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): The OECD report hope and lit a thousand candles around the country, published last week places Britain near the bottom of with people investing and taking an interest in new the international literacy and numeracy league tables. education. May I welcome the speed with which those Does that not make the case for continued innovation in on the Front Bench have acted on this school, but also education? Will the Minister ensure that this poor example urge the Minister and the team not in any way to allow does not undermine the excellent and innovative free the intellectual and political gymnastics of Opposition schools programme? Front Benchers—who have opposed progressive reforms in education for years and have now seized on one case Mr Laws: My hon. Friend makes a telling point of failure—to slow down these important reforms, which about the educational challenges for this country and are giving hope to millions? about the need to focus on educational failure from wherever it comes. It speaks volumes about the Labour Mr Laws: I can assure my hon. Friend that we are not party that it should choose to have an urgent question impressed or distracted by the gymnastics we have seen on this one individual school while across the country over the last week or by the desperate attempt by the there are hundreds of other schools facing similar challenges shadow Education Secretary to resolve his differences in which it seems to have no equivalent interest. with his own Schools Minister, who has a totally different view about free schools. We will remain focused on Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Does my right hon. improving this school—and, indeed, all schools across Friend agree that, despite the failings of this particular the country that need improvement. school, free schools, university technical schools and the pupil premium are transforming education in our Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): country and that we should not use the failure of one Does my right hon. Friend agree that this urgent question school to become the enemy of choice for parents who demonstrates the Opposition’s political dogma on want to set up their own schools? education? They are using one failing free school to criticise all free schools. Given that the comprehensive Mr Laws: My hon. Friend is exactly right. The Under- school that I attended is now sadly in special measures, Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the does he not think it is telling that the Labour party is Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), will not asking questions— publish information showing the progress made across the country in last year’s exam results—progress that, Mr Speaker: Order. I must have told the hon. Gentleman thanks to our reforms and to Ofqual, we can be assured over three and a half years a score of times—I now tell is real progress and not simply inflated progress. him for the 21st time—that questions must be about the policy of the Government, not the Opposition; nor is Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): What is actually this an occasion for general dilation by Members on happening for the children at this school to make sure their own educational experiences. The urgent question that we look after them? 895 Al-Madinah Free School 17 OCTOBER 2013 896

Mr Laws: What is happening is that Lord Nash is Business of the House taking decisive action to address, one by one, all the deficiencies identified in the Ofsted report. He has 11.4 am already received detailed responses and assurances on many points from the free school, and we will make sure Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): May I ask the that we get assurances on all those issues. We will then Deputy Leader of the House to give us the business for make a judgment about whether the people running the next week? school are fit to continue running it in the future. The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Brake): The business for next week will be as follows: Does my right hon. Friend agree that actions taken in MONDAY 21 OCTOBER—A general debate on the future respect of Al-Madinah school demonstrate that this of the BBC, followed by a debate on a motion relating Government are tough on low standards wherever they to the state of natural capital in England and Wales. occur—whether it be in free schools, local authority The subjects of both debates were nominated by the schools or academy schools? Backbench Business Committee. TUESDAY 22 OCTOBER—Second Reading of the Mr Laws: My hon. Friend is right. If we reflect on Immigration Bill, followed by a debate on a reasoned some of the schools that were able to languish in failure opinion relating to the European Public Prosecutor’s for many years under the last Labour Government Office. without decisive action being taken, we will find that our actions in this case compare very favourably indeed. WEDNESDAY 23 OCTOBER—Opposition Day [8th allotted day]. There will be a debate on dealing with the past in Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I welcome the action Northern Ireland, followed by a debate on air passenger taken in respect of this school and the fact that the duty. Both debates will arise on a motion in the name of majority of the 170 free schools are outperforming the Democratic Unionist Party. local authority schools. Does the Minister agree that THURSDAY 24 OCTOBER—A debate on a motion relating one bad apple does not spoil the barrel, and has he to the Financial Conduct Authority’s redress scheme learned anything about Labour’s policy on free schools? for the mis-selling of interest rate swap derivatives, followed by a general debate on aviation strategy. The Mr Laws: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. It is subjects of both debates were nominated by the Backbench interesting that the shadow Secretary of State who Business Committee. speaks for the Opposition on these matters has not FRIDAY 25 OCTOBER—Private Members’ Bills. concluded that the Labour party’s last academies The provisional business for the week commencing programme was deficient because some of those academies 28 October will include the following: have failed. There is a basic lack of logic in Labour’s position and an ideological resistance to innovation in MONDAY 28 OCTOBER—Second Reading of the Local the school system. Audit and Accountability Bill [Lords]. TUESDAY 29 OCTOBER—Remaining stages of the Pensions Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Whether it be Bill, followed by a motion to approve a European at the Al-Madinah school or any other school, most of document relating to reform of Eurojust and the European my constituents would take the view that it is completely Public Prosecutor’s Office. inappropriate for any school uniform policy to include WEDNESDAY 30 OCTOBER—Opposition Day [9th allotted a requirement for schoolgirls to wear the full-face Islamic day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion; veil. Is that the policy of Her Majesty’s Government, or subject to be announced. is it up to each school to decide? THURSDAY 31 OCTOBER—Remaining stages of the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill. Mr Laws: I agree with my hon. Friend that we do not want these impositions on children or on staff—and we FRIDAY 1NOVEMBER—Private Members’ Bills. have made that clear to this school. I should also like to inform the House that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has announced that the autumn statement will be made on Wednesday 4 December, and that the business in Westminster Hall on 24 October will be a debate on planning, housing supply and the countryside.

Ms Eagle: I thank the Deputy Leader of the House for announcing next week’s business. I also send my best wishes to the Leader of the House as he recuperates from his minor operation. Let me begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), who yesterday won the election to become Deputy Speaker. I hope that she will not mind my saying that it is unusual to see a Scottish Tory being elected. I am sure that I speak for many Labour Members when I say that it has certainly been an experience to be on the receiving end of the vote- gathering techniques of the Conservative party. We 897 Business of the House17 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 898 enjoyed welcoming all the candidates to a parliamentary I understand that the Deputy Leader is heavily involved Labour party hustings, and I am pleased to say that we in his local save St Helier hospital campaign. In fact, he managed to resist the temptation to set them a bushtucker is so involved that the phone number and address on the trial. campaign website is that of his own constituency office. Last week, I asked where the Offender Rehabilitation To clear up any confusion, can the Deputy Leader of Bill (Lords) had disappeared to. I note that it is still the House confirm that he is actually a part of the missing. Will the Deputy Leader of the House confirm Government who are closing the hospital? Is there not my suspicion that the Government are deliberately holding a pattern of behaviour here: the Deputy Leader is up the Bill so that they can privatise the probation campaigning against himself on St Helier, the Deputy service before they bring the Bill back to the House of Prime Minister is campaigning against himself on library Commons? closures forced by Government cuts in Sheffield, and now they are ready to sign up to a new pledge on tuition When the Government announced new plans for the fees? The more they protest, the more we see right funding of social care, they claimed that no elderly through them: you can’t trust the Liberal Democrats. person would be forced to sell his or her home to pay for it. At the Tory party conference, the Health Secretary was at it again, promising Tom Brake: May I start by thanking the shadow Leader of the House for her kind words, which I will “for those who need residential care…We’ll stop them ever having to sell the home they have worked hard for all their life to pay for pass on to the Leader of the House, who is recovering the cost of it.” well? I am grateful to her for those remarks. I also echo However, during the debate on the Care Bill in the other her comments about the hon. Member for Epping place, those grand ministerial claims have been exposed Forest (Mrs Laing), who not only is a Scottish Tory as empty PR posturing, and the truth has finally emerged: who got elected, but who did so under the single transferable older people will be helped only if they have less than vote, which is clearly very welcome, too. £23,000 in the bank. Given the huge disparity between On the issue of the funding of social care, I am sure the Health Secretary’s claims and the modest reality, the hon. Lady will be aware that no decision has been will the Deputy Leader of the House arrange for an taken on that, and the consultation is still open and if urgent statement to be made? Members want to make a submission, they have until It is a rare treat to face the Deputy Leader across the 25 October to do so. Dispatch Box. I often wonder what he is thinking when We have just had a full hour of Department of he is sitting next to the Leader of the House on Thursday Energy and Climate Change questions, and my right mornings. I suppose that we are going to find out today. hon. Friend the Secretary of State did a very good job I am sure the Deputy Leader is aware, however, that for of explaining why Labour’s policy of freezing energy 39 of the 40 months for which the Government have prices is a con. In case the hon. Lady was not here to been in power, prices have risen faster than wages. hear that, it is because prices will go up both before and Labour’s promise to freeze energy bills until 2017 would after the freeze, and the Leader of the Opposition has be of real benefit to those who are struggling. What is indicated that if things changed globally during the the Government’s policy? The Tories want to scrap freeze, he would not be in a position to hold prices energy efficiency measures for the poorest in order to down. That is why we do not support Labour’s position, reduce bills, but the Deputy Prime Minister thinks that but what the Government have done is maintain winter that would put prices up. What does the Deputy Leader fuel payments, worth £300, cold weather payments of think? We have heard only this morning that British £25, and the warm home discount, which is worth £135. Gas is going to increase its prices by nearly 10%. Is the Indeed, more generally in relation to cost of living Deputy Leader proud that the Government are arguing issues, under this Government 25 million basic rate among themselves while the cost of living squeeze just taxpayers will be £700 better off next year, and 3 million gets worse? Would it not be easier to freeze energy bills? people have been taken out of income tax entirely. Yesterday the Prime Minister could not clear up the The hon. Lady mentioned the save St Helier hospital confusion over his own policy on marriage tax breaks, campaign. I thank her for promoting that and, of which will benefit only one third of couples. The Deputy course, I am fully behind that campaign. It seems as Prime Minister has made his opposition clear. So when though she is chiding me for running a campaign in this policy eventually comes to the House, will the support of my local hospital, something I will make Deputy Leader of the House and his party be voting sure Labour-inclined voters are aware of, but the important against it, or will this just be another example of the thing about the save St Helier campaign is that the Liberal Democrats saying one thing and doing another? review that has taken place was not conducted by The Deputy Leader of the House will remember that politicians, but the proposals came from a team of before the last election he signed the National Union of clinicians and, on that team, St Helier hospital was Students pledge to vote against any increase in tuition under-represented, which is why we are campaigning fees. I am sure he also remembers that just months after against this. I am very pleased to be able to conclude my the election he was voting to treble them. I noted this remarks on the subject of save St Helier hospital, because week with interest that the Deputy Prime Minister has that is a campaign I intend to win. made another Lib Dem pledge on tuition fees: he has promised not to increase them to £16,000 a year. Will Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) the Deputy Leader be signing up to that one, too, or has (Con): Last week, the all-party group on excellence in he learned his lesson? I am sure nothing will worry the the built environment, which I chair, published its report hundreds of thousands of young people considering on the Government’s green deal for the domestic residential going to university more than another promise from the market. I was delighted that the Under-Secretary of Liberal Democrats on tuition fees. State for Communities and Local Government, my 899 Business of the House17 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 900

[Oliver Colvile] the general election. On a whole number of indicators things are moving in the right direction. There should hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford be no room for complacency, but we are beginning to (Nick Boles), who is responsible for planning, attended see very positive indicators in the economy generally. the launch. May we have a debate on this issue, so that the Government can bring us all up to date on the Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): May we progress they are making on the green deal and how have an urgent debate on the ever-increasing cost of better insulation in homes will help to reduce the number in-work benefits, given that it would appear that the of families and individuals living in fuel poverty? taxpayer is having to subsidise employees of companies that are earning millions of pounds in profits? It is not Tom Brake: I do not know whether my hon. Friend about time that they paid decent wages and cut the was able to be here for Energy questions earlier, but welfare bill? energy efficiency and the green deal came up then. Let me detail some of the specific things that the Government Tom Brake: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that have done. In October 2012, the Department of Energy where employers are in a position to pay the living and Climate Change offered English local authorities wage, they should do so, but that should not be at the the opportunity to bid for funding to reduce the extent expense of jobs. So he makes a valid point, but how of fuel poverty, and £31 million is now going into employers address that is a decision for them. 60 projects involving just under 170 local authorities. Of course, we have the Warm Front scheme—it was closed Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): There in January for new applications but we are still processing is a great deal of concern about the protection of others and measures are being taken on the back of vulnerable children, so may we have a debate on how that. In response to the shadow Leader of the House, I child protection services in Somerset, which were adjudged also set out the measures we are taking to support to be outstanding just five years ago, were last year people who are in fuel poverty or are struggling to pay judged to be inadequate, with Ofsted saying this year their bills with a range of initiatives, including the warm that there has been no improvement? Does it not show home discount, winter fuel payments and cold weather an astonishing failure of political leadership and payments. management that Somerset county council, which does not face overwhelming demands on its social services, is Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): I am grateful to now considered to be among the 17 worst local authorities you, Mr Speaker, for granting the debate next Wednesday in the country at protecting our children? on the fate of the Arctic Sunrise crew, who are still being held captive in Murmansk. It is nearly a month Tom Brake: May I say what a pleasure it is to respond since the Russian authorities hijacked the boat and to a question from my hon. Friend, who did such a unlawfully detained and arrested the crew, including six good job as Deputy Leader of the House before me? Britons, three of whom are from Devon. They have now The Government take any failure to deliver adequate been charged with the ludicrous charge of piracy. May children’s social care services very seriously. I recognise we have an urgent statement from a Foreign and the challenges that local authorities can face in delivering Commonwealth Office Minister on what the British strong child protection services, but it is right that Government are doing to secure their release? Ofsted should identify weaknesses clearly and set out the areas where improvement is needed. I can assure Tom Brake: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his him that Ministers are acting robustly to ensure that question, which raises a significant issue. Indeed, the failure is turned around quickly and sustainably. In Prime Minister responded to it yesterday in Prime Minister’s Somerset, that process has happened. Department for questions, because one of his constituents is also affected. Education officials have met senior representatives from The British Government have rightly made representations, Somerset council and Ministers intend to issue the and I want to see those people released as soon as council with a notice to improve. Clearly, my hon. possible. Friend’s strong concerns are now on the record, too.

Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Following its Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): The earnings recent survey of businesses, the Hull and Humber chamber limit for carers allowance was last increased in April of commerce stated that 2010. Carers in my Bridgend constituency tell me that if they work more than 16 hours on the national minimum “the economic recovery in the Humber region is gathering pace”. wage, they will lose their carers allowance. Carers are Constituencies such as mine contain a large proportion critical to our economy; they provide a vital service and of low-income and middle-income households, and we support to vulnerable people. Is it not wrong that they need to ensure that they are the first to benefit from the should be punished in this way? May we have a debate recovery. Will the Deputy Leader of the House find on how we can support carers and ensure that changes time for a debate when these issues may be fully aired? to the benefit system do not leave them worse off?

Tom Brake: Clearly, we want to ensure that those on Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Lady for that question, low incomes and middle incomes benefit first from the because it gives me an opportunity to reinforce her recovery, and that is exactly what is happening in the tax point about the excellent work that carers do, which is measures we are introducing. I am pleased that my hon. acknowledged on both sides of the House. She has Friend is detecting good news economically in his raised a specific issue about the earnings limit and I will constituency. Some 1.4 million more people are in work ensure that her concerns are passed on to Ministers at today in the private sector than there were at the time of the Department for Work and Pensions. 901 Business of the House17 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 902

Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): May we have a Tom Brake: I assure the hon. Gentleman that this is a debate on the effect that decisions taken by one Government matter on which there is agreement. No one wants to agency have on other Government Departments and on abandon any towns or cities, and that is why the the public purse? Training for Travel in my constituency, Government have invested as heavily as we have in the which provides training for the travel industry, was days regional growth fund to ensure that jobs in the private away from transferring its training providing business sector are there. We want to work constructively with to another provider when the Skills Funding Agency him on that issue. told it that it was cancelling its training contract. The result is that that company is likely to fold, resulting in Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): May hundreds of thousands of pounds having to be paid out we have a debate on the factors that lead to business by other Government Departments in statutory redundancy investment and job creation? Honeytop Speciality Foods and the like. in my constituency has already exported naan bread to India. It is creating 200 extra jobs this month, and it has Tom Brake: The issue my hon. Friend raises is quite turned Dunstable into the crumpet capital of the United complex and I have a significantly complex reply that I Kingdom. But it gets even better. I have now learned of could give him, but in the circumstances I think it an extra £22 million investment to produce the fastest would be better for me to ensure that he is written to. burger bun plant in the whole of Europe. Is it not He might also want to raise the matter in Business, critical that we have this type of investment across the Innovation and Skills questions next week, if that is whole of the United Kingdom? appropriate. Tom Brake: I am aware that the hon. Gentleman Mr Speaker: That is immensely considerate of the raised the same issue last week. He will remember that Deputy Leader of the House and we thank him for the Leader of the House promised to go and sample a that. crumpet if he was in his constituency. Last night I was at a planning meeting at my local authority to support Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): May we have a strong local opposition to the opening of a fast-food debate or a statement about the regulations governing restaurant, so it would be hypocritical of me to offer to major retail developments in local areas? Late last come and eat a burger with the hon. Gentleman. However, night, I was contacted by residents on Melton road who he has put on record the fact that substantial, welcome were complaining bitterly about Sainsbury’s, which is investment is going into his constituency, which I am trying to put up a huge store on the junction of Melton sure will create lots of jobs, building on what the road and Troon way. The work goes on throughout the Government have already achieved—the 1.4 million night. We are trying to make Leicester into the city of jobs that we have helped to create in the private sector. culture; Sainsbury’s is trying to make Leicester into the city of roadworks. Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): The prison population Tom Brake: There might be an opportunity for the is approaching record highs and the numbers of prison right hon. Gentleman to raise the subject at Communities staff are approaching record lows, and that is causing and Local Government questions on Monday and we prison staff up and down the country to have great will have a debate on Thursday on planning, housing health and safety concerns. The situation has been supply and the countryside, and he might be able to described as a powder keg. May we have a debate on raise the issue as part of the planning aspect. how we approach safety and health for prison staff before we as politicians suffer greatly as a result of a Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): May we have a tragic incident that is waiting to happen in the Prison debate on restoring public trust in the police? Is it not Service? the case that David Shaw, the chief constable of West Mercia police, should take immediate and appropriate Tom Brake: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on action against the officer implicated in lying against my drawing attention to that. Clearly, we all want our right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield prisons to be safe environments both for prison staff (Mr Mitchell)? and for prisoners. He has made a specific request about staffing levels and the impact on health and safety, and Tom Brake: I thank my hon. Friend for that question I will ensure that a written response is sent to him. and I am sure that he will have heard the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister state their position. The behaviour John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): Far too was unacceptable and action would be appropriate, but often, constituents of mine end up in destitution when clearly that is something for the Crown Prosecution their claim for employment and support allowance Service and others to consider, rather than Ministers. ends. Whereas they qualify for jobseeker’s allowance or income support, such a claim is not put in place. Will Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): Has the Deputy the Government introduce a motion to authorise Leader of the House seen this week’s article in The the Department of Work and Pensions to institute Economist, which referred to towns such as Hartlepool, automatically a claim in appropriate circumstances while Hull, Middlesbrough and Wolverhampton as “rustbelt the legislative environment is resolved? Britain”and urged the Government to ignore and abandon them? May we have a debate on the issue so that we can Tom Brake: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. reject that ridiculous notion and highlight the promise He said something on which we can achieve consensus, and potential of my area, or would such a debate which is that no one should be left destitute. If there is merely confirm that the Government have already an appropriate way of ensuring the transition to which abandoned areas such as Hartlepool? he referred, I am sure that DWP will seek to find it. 903 Business of the House17 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 904

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op):May Tom Brake: The hon. Member for Linlithgow and I ask the Deputy Leader of the House to take time this East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) has put on record his week to read the article that I published in The House concerns for a second time. I will not repeat some of the magazine this week about how we treat the people who language that he used, but clearly from the Government’s work in this Parliament of ours? Most of our constituents perspective we would encourage the employers and the and certainly mine in Huddersfield believe that this unions to work together to ensure that the matter is place should be a beacon of good treatment of people resolved. If he feels as strongly about the issue as he at work. Zero-hours contracts, no contracts and short-term clearly does, there will be an opportunity for him to contracts dominate this House now and it is about time raise it again next Thursday during questions to the we put our shop right. Let us lead; let us be a beacon. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Let us treat our staff well. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): The editor Tom Brake: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman of The Guardian recently boasted online that he was was able to speak in the Opposition day debate on that “taking precautions” to prevent UK security services very subject yesterday. If he did, he will have heard the from having access to the files of vital national security Minister’s response. I agree with him that we should be information that he had sent outwith the remit of the an exemplar in terms of how we treat people who work UK courts to The New York Times. Security sources are in this place. I will endeavour in the next few hours to still trying to decrypt these files, which The Independent track down a copy of The House magazine so that I can described as “highly detailed” and a “threat to national read his article. security”. May we have a statement to reassure the John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): Over the past five years House that The Guardian will be asked for a decryption QinetiQ in Boscombe Down in my constituency has key and if none is forthcoming, action will be taken? doubled the number of new graduate trainees and Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman has been successful apprentices that it employs. It has also set up the 5% in securing a debate on Tuesday next week, when I am campaign to challenge other companies to aim for sure he will get a much more detailed response to his 5% of their work force being drawn from apprentices concerns than I am able to give him. Clearly, he is right and new graduate trainees. Will the Deputy Leader of that intelligence leaks are causing serious damage to the the House make time for a statement on how the UK’s national security. The Government have a duty to Government can encourage this worthwhile campaign? protect national security and should make it clear to Tom Brake: My hon. Friend has rightly drawn attention media organisations that publishing highly classified to the importance of employers taking on graduates material damages our ability to protect this country. and apprentices. He will be aware that we have created a Journalists are not in a position to make national security million extra apprenticeships, which is beginning to assessments on what should or should not be published. have a real effect. I am sure that in the contacts that As he will be aware, however, it is a matter for the police both he and I have with employers, they underline how and the Crown Prosecution Service to determine whether much added value apprentices bring to their company. a crime has been committed and what action should be So he has helped publicise this today, and I am sure that taken as a result. As I said, he will have an opportunity all Members will want to do so in the contacts that they on Tuesday to raise these matters in detail. have with employers. Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): In view of Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): what we have just heard and what was said by the Prime The Deputy Leader of the House said that he was in the Minister yesterday, by the Home Secretary before the Chamber for Energy questions. He will have heard me Home Affairs Committee and by the head of MI5, is tell the House that Grangemouth oil refinery and chemicals the Deputy Leader of the House aware that many of us is shut down until further notice. It is not only the first believe that what is happening at present are threats and time that there has been a full, cold shutdown of that smears against The Guardian for publishing details, plant, which represents 10% of the Scottish economy, in which is not in any way a threat to the security of our the 21 years that I have represented the town, but it is country, but information which the public have a right the first time since I first worked there as a student in to know? As the Liberal Democrats are supposed to be 1967. The replies from the Energy Minister were all ardent defenders of our civil liberties, perhaps the right about securing supply and everyone getting supplies. hon. Gentleman will bear it in mind that it would be May we have a statement from the Business Secretary useful to have an overall debate on intelligence and and a debate in the Chamber about the fact that planning security matters and not just leave it to the Committee clearly went into this so that the company, which is which meets in private session. owned by one man and two others but mainly by one man, who may be the equivalent of a Russian oligarch Tom Brake: I will not restate what I have said, but the and may have been involved in collusion with this Government clearly have a duty to protect our national Government to store up supplies so that he could take security.If a newspaper—whichever one—is in the business on the work force and break them because he wants to of publishing information that damages our national take £50 million out of the terms and conditions of security or circulating information that has the potential employment of the people on that site, so we need a to do so, the Government are required to respond. If debate on collusion— that newspaper publishes information on certain matters that have no relevance to national security, clearly we Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman probably want them to be able to do so. should seek an Adjournment debate on the matter in order fully to give vent to his multiple concerns on the Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) issue. Business questions is an occasion when a brief (Con): In the next few days we will hear an announcement request for a debate is made. on the Hinkley Point C nuclear power station, which is 905 Business of the House17 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 906 obviously vital to UK plc. The Government will no the NHS, in contrast with Opposition Front Benchers, doubt make a statement to that effect, which will be who I think described that proposal as “irresponsible”. welcome, but may we have a debate in the Chamber to The level of funding going into the NHS is very significant. consider it more closely, because of the importance to On A and E and NHS waiting times, average waiting skills and inward investment and what it will mean for times remain low and stable. The number of patients UK plc over the next 100 years? who have been waiting longer than 52 weeks is 352—clearly that is 352 too many—but that compares with a total of Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman is right to expect a 18,458 at the end of May 2010, when his party left statement on the matter very soon, and it would be power. appropriate for him to take that opportunity to make his point and to listen to the responses to all the other Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Ellen, a year 11 student questions that will be asked. from my part of Somerset, wrote to me about the Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): May we have a cancellation of her GCSE maths exam in November, statement on the Government’s support for traditional having heard about it not through her school nor through music, as this year Wingates brass band is celebrating Parliament but through the Sunday papers. May we its 140th anniversary? On 26 October it will hold a have a debate to consider the method of communicating concert at which two new specially written pieces will be such changes, which Ellen says causes confusion, distress, introduced, as well as the launch of “From Bible Class upset and anger, and to see whether it would be preferable to World Class”, a book about its history. Will the and more sensible for changes to apply only to students Deputy Leader of the House join me in congratulating who started studying for their exams last month rather Wingates brass band on that fantastic achievement? than making dramatic changes for those like Ellen who, since 2009, had planned her work with her teachers for Tom Brake: I join the hon. Lady in congratulating an exam next month? that musical ensemble. I am afraid that my briefing pack, although extensive, did not run to traditional Tom Brake: I do not know whether my hon. Friend music, but she has put the matter on the record and I was able to be in the Chamber on Monday when the am sure that in future all Members will want to know Minister for Schools made a statement about standards; more about that important subject. she may find that pertinent to the issue. She has raised a specific point about which I will ensure that the Department Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): The Commission for Education writes to her. on Human Medicines has today recommended that schools should be permitted to keep an asthma inhaler for general use for when children who do not have Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): My constituents continue recourse to their own inhaler suffer an attack, which to suffer from cold calling by claims management Members will be shocked to learn is currently against companies. Will the Deputy Leader of the House arrange the regulations. May we please have a debate on support for the Secretary of State for Justice to make a statement for children in our schools who suffer from chronic to this House on the performance of his Department in conditions such as asthma? regulating those companies, including looking at whether to transfer that responsibility to the Financial Conduct Tom Brake: I congratulate the hon. Lady on campaigning Authority? on the matter. The Government are grateful to the Commission on Human Medicines for its recommendation Tom Brake: I am sure that every Member in the and intend to act on it. We will consult on changing the Chamber has sympathy with the hon. Gentleman’s point. regulations to allow schools, if they so wish, to hold a These calls are persistent and an irritant, and we need to spare asthma inhaler for emergencies and to develop ensure that, as far as possible, the matter is addressed. appropriate protocols for their staff to ensure its safe He asked for the Secretary of State for Justice to respond and proper use. She will have opportunities on Monday, to the issue. I will make sure that my right hon. Friend is during Communities and Local Government questions, aware of his concerns and writes to him about the and on Tuesday, during Health questions, to raise the matter. matter of schools and health. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): May we have a debate Cleveland) (Lab): We already know that accident and on local authorities’ winter highways maintenance emergency departments in the north-east are to receive preparedness? no extra funding this winter, but this week we learnt that the South Tees clinical commissioning group’s per-head Tom Brake: I am sure that we are all hoping our local funding is to be cut significantly, alongside other north-east authorities will be getting in the appropriate levels of CCGs. Following that, Monitor indicated that it will be salt and sand to ensure that we have, as far as possible, investigating South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation an accident-free winter. The hon. Gentleman will be Trust for a persistent failure to meet targets on waiting interested to hear that the Department for Transport times, and on clostridium difficile and for a rise in never continues to liaise with local and national partners to events. May we have a debate in the House in Government improve winter resilience so that this country enters the time about NHS funding for the north-east? forthcoming winter season well prepared. A national strategic salt reserve of no less than 425,000 tonnes is Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that going to be brought to bear on this issue. If he wanted question. I do not have the specific figures about north-east to raise specific issues about local authorities, he funding in front of me, but he will be aware that the could do so on Monday at Communities and Local Government have committed an extra £12.7 billion to Government questions. 907 Business of the House17 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 908

Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Has my right hon. sure that Members of all parties are interested in the Friend seen my early-day motion 589, which deals with subject of credit unions, so the hon. Gentleman may lower taxes for lower earners? want to consider making representations to the Backbench [That this House welcomes the Government taking Business Committee through an all-party delegation. 2.2 million people out of income tax so far by increasing the personal allowance threshold; further welcomes the Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Government raising the income tax threshold even further Data published yesterday show that my Harrogate and to £10,000 in 2015; notes that the Government is committed Knaresborough constituency is one of the top three in to helping the low paid with the cost of living by lowering the country for falling unemployment, with particularly taxes so that they can keep more of their own money; encouraging falls of more than 40% year on year for further notes that the National Insurance threshold remains both long-term unemployment and 18 to 24-year-old at £7,748; and therefore urges the Government to examine claimants. Could we have a debate on job creation, in the possibilities of increasing the threshold for National order to explore not just that positive news, but how we Insurance in the long term to help low earners with the can accelerate growth and ensure that it is spread around cost of living.] the country? My right hon. Friend mentioned earlier the fact that our Conservative Chancellor has cut taxes for 20 million Tom Brake: I would welcome such a debate. I am lower earners in our country. May we have a debate on pleased for the hon. Gentleman and his constituents whether we can help lower earners still further by that there has been a significant drop in unemployment raising the threshold for national insurance? in his constituency, which is something that is being replicated to a greater or lesser extent around the whole country. Employment is up, unemployment is down and Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his youth unemployment is slightly down. Clearly, there question. He is a doughty campaigner on many issues are still many issues that we need to address and the and has had great success with some of them. I am debate suggested by the hon. Gentleman might give pleased that the issues he mentions are very much on the Government the opportunity to focus on youth the Government’s agenda. Once we have hit the threshold unemployment, on which we could make even more to allow people to earn £10,000 before they pay any progress. income tax, the Liberal Democrats would like to push the matter further, and the Government as a whole Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): might like to do so as well. He raises the specific issue of For some time I have been in correspondence with the national insurance contributions, and I am sure that he Foreign Office on the unacceptable and illegal discrimination would support the Government’s initiative to reduce faced by UK and other foreign national lecturers in those in relation to employers. I can assure him that I Italy. Despite repeated attempts to get the European have just read his early-day motion, and fantastic it is Commission to act and intervene, no action has been too. taken and the Commission is now looking to close the file. Could we therefore have an important debate on Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The Deputy this clear and systemic breach by Italy of the free Leader of the House is demonstrating that he could be movement of workers within the European Union, and Leader of the House by filling in for him today. Could its discrimination against them, and the failings of the this be extended so that other deputies could take over European Commission to act on it? for a day? Perhaps the Deputy Prime Minister could take over for a day; may I suggest 1 April? Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman is right. This is a serious issue and it is the Government’s view that the Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman. It was all discrimination faced by UK and foreign national lecturers going so well until the last phrase. In fact, I misheard it in Italy is not only unacceptable, but illegal. We have so I will just stick with the first part. I think it is entirely been pressing the Italian authorities to find a solution appropriate for deputies to take over on the occasions and the hon. Gentleman may be aware that the Minister when they are required to do so. I was rather expecting for Universities and Science met the Italian Education my shadow, the hon. Member for Penistone and Minister on 5 October and raised the problems faced by Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), to take over for today as foreign lecturers working in Italy. He received assurances well; I am not quite sure what happened there. that the Italians are actively looking into a solution over the next year. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): Today is international credit union day and the Bishop of Stafford is opening Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): May we have a in a Stafford department store a branch of the Staffordshire debate on what I think is the case that someone from my credit union, with which I have an account. Could we constituency of Beckenham who happens to be a Scotsman have a debate on how credit unions can provide viable and wants to go to university in Scotland has to pay and excellent competition against payday lenders and tuition fees, whereas someone who lives in Scotland other forms of credit on the high street? who happens to be an Englishman does not and someone who comes from France, Germany, Italy or Spain does Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. not, either? It seems extraordinary. Perhaps I should declare an interest as a member of the Croydon, Sutton and Merton credit union. Clearly, Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman is right. He will be there is real potential for credit unions to enter the aware that higher education is a devolved matter for market and provide people with loans at low rates of Scotland and that under EU law member states cannot interest and to make a sustainable contribution. I am discriminate on grounds of nationality against people 909 Business of the House17 OCTOBER 2013 Business of the House 910 from other member states in the conditions of access to has made serious allegations about the composition of vocational training, which includes higher education. the clinical reference group and it would be appropriate Where certain residency and nationality conditions are for the Secretary of State for Health to respond. met, EU nationals and their family members will qualify for home fee status and will therefore be treated the Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): Principled employment same with regard to tuition fees as UK nationals who agencies throughout the United Kingdom are suffering also satisfy the residency conditions. and some are closing because of the practices of unprincipled employment agencies, which exploit staff Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): Like my by underpaying them and incorporating expenses into hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough their remuneration, thereby undercutting the principled (Andrew Jones), I welcome the drop in unemployment agencies that pay people properly. May we have a debate in my constituency of Mid Derbyshire. I visited the on how the rules could be changed to stop that unfair local A4e last week, which is very successful at getting practice? more than 100 long-term unemployed people a month into employment, but I was told that its biggest problem Tom Brake: I thank my hon. Friend for drawing my related to those with mental illness. May we have a attention to that issue, of which I was not aware. I am debate on how we can further help people with mental sure that she will pursue the matter at Business, Innovation illness who are long-term unemployed? and Skills questions next Thursday. It might be possible for me to secure a response for her in the interim. Tom Brake: The hon. Lady is right that organisations that are seeking to address long-term unemployment are coming across people with substantial challenges Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): such as mental health issues and drug or alcohol addiction. As the Deputy Leader of the House knows, the The Government are committed to assisting them through Government are planning to introduce a hybrid Bill various work programmes. She has made a pertinent into the House before the end of the year on the vexed point that requires a written response. She may be subject of High Speed 2. It will be accompanied by an interested to know that I am meeting Rethink Mental environmental statement that contains more than Illness later today to talk about the sorts of issues that 50,000 pages of information. On the day on which it is she has raised. laid, the Government’s consultation period will commence. It is rumoured that it will be only eight weeks long and Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): A few will take place over the Christmas period. Will he grant months ago, the Secretary of State for Health rightly a debate on the efficiency and effectiveness of the made a statement to announce the suspension of the consultation periods that are being allowed by the Safe and Sustainable review into children’s heart surgery Government, to ensure in particular that my constituents after the Independent Reconfiguration Panel found that and other people who will be affected along the line it had been flawed and biased. It seems that the same have a decent time to reply to what will be one of the thing may be happening again. May we have another largest environmental statements in history? statement on the composition of the clinical reference group because three of its four members established a Tom Brake: Again, I am not in a position to guarantee position in 2010 on what should happen? One of them, such a debate. However, my right hon. Friend will be Anne Keatley-Clarke, the chief executive of the Children’s aware that the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill will Heart Federation, has behaved in a thoroughly be debated in this place on Thursday 31 October and unprofessional manner. The Independent Reconfiguration she may have an opportunity to raise those issues during Panel described her charity’s role as that debate. She will also be aware that there have been “a source of unhelpful divisiveness”. many legal challenges to what the Government are doing May we have a statement so that we can discover why a on this issue, but that overwhelmingly the Government supposedly neutral body is being set up in such a biased have been successful in overturning them. way? Andrew Bridgen: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Tom Brake: I am afraid that I cannot guarantee my hon. Friend a statement, but I can offer him the opportunity Mr Speaker: There will be no points of order now to raise the matter at Health questions on Tuesday. He because we have a statement. 911 17 OCTOBER 2013 Afghanistan 912

Afghanistan Today we have four UK bases in central Helmand as well as Camp Bastion—down from 137 UK bases at the height of the conflict. On 9 August the military headquarters 11.53 am of the UK’s Task Force Helmand moved from Lashkar The Secretary of State for International Development Gah to Camp Bastion, symbolising the changing UK (Justine Greening): With permission, Mr Speaker, I will military profile in central Helmand. We have also reduced make a statement on the Government’s progress in the total number of UK armed forces personnel in Afghanistan. theatre from 7,900 in May, to currently around 6,800. First, may I welcome the right hon. Member for East By the end of the year we will have reduced that even Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) to his new role? I very much further to 5,200 personnel, notwithstanding occasional look forward to his contribution to the important area fluctuations due to temporary surges into theatre. in which we both now work. We must not forget the challenges that still remain, Secondly, I pay tribute to Lance Corporal James and throughout all this the insurgency has remained a Brynin of 14 Signal Regiment, who was tragically killed determined and resilient enemy. However, as we approach in action in Afghanistan on 15 October after coming the final year of the ISAF campaign, we can be optimistic under enemy fire during an operation in Nahri Sarraj. about Afghanistan’s future. Encouragingly, recent Afghan My thoughts are with his family and loved ones as they polls show that 90% of Afghans feel that security in come to terms with their terrible loss. Four hundred and their area is fair to good, and 80% of Afghans say they forty-five members of the UK armed forces have died feel safe travelling outside their area during the day. on operations in Afghanistan since 2001. Their bravery Such perceptions in the minds of ordinary Afghans will and commitment to our nation’s security will never be ultimately determine the country’s fate. The ANSF is an forgotten. essential component in achieving that, and in building a secure and viable Afghan state that can provide long-term Our objective in Afghanistan has not changed since security and governance for its people. the Prime Minister’s statement to Parliament in July. We are protecting the UK by ensuring that Afghanistan Progress has also been made in securing a sustainable is not used as a base for terrorism against our country political settlement for Afghanistan ahead of presidential and our allies. We are helping the Afghan Government and provincial elections in 2014. Afghans want and in three main ways: to increase the capability of deserve the right to decide the future of their country, Afghanistan’s national security force; to make progress and we are committed to helping them achieve that. A towards a sustainable political settlement; and to build constitutional, peaceful transfer of power from President a viable state that helps meet the needs of the Afghan Karzai to his successor will be a significant milestone people. Progress has been made on all three fronts. This for the Afghan people, yet we cannot underestimate the summer, through the fiercest months of the Taliban challenge of holding those elections. We are working fighting season, Afghan national security forces led the hard to support the Afghan authorities to make them as security response to the insurgency threat for the first credible, inclusive and transparent as possible, and we time. That followed President Karzai’s milestone very much welcome the fact that two vital pieces of announcement in June that the ANSF has assumed electoral reform were passed by the Afghan Parliament lead responsibility for security throughout the country. and signed by President Karzai in late July. That was an historic moment and the first time that Afghanistan has The ANSF has now reached its temporary surge had laws of that kind debated and voted on by Parliament, strength target of 352,000 army, police and air force rather than adopted by decree. personnel, and today leads 93% of all operations across Afghanistan. Those numbers are having an effect on the DFID has given £12 million to support the Independent battlefield. Despite an increase in violence levels and Electoral Commission. The IEC has recruited and trained high-profile attacks in June, the ANSF responded effectively more than 5,600 officials for voter registration, including to the majority of security incidents, and launched almost 2,000 women, as well as encouraged people to several proactive operations to disrupt planned attacks vote through public service announcements on TV and in Kabul and elsewhere. That resulted in just one high-profile radio. So far, it has helped to ensure that more than attack taking place in the capital since July, and an 2 million Afghans have registered to vote—as of mid- overall reduction in violence levels throughout July and October—of whom around 31% are women. Efforts to August. Crucially, the ANSF is succeeding in keeping encourage women to participate in the electoral process the insurgency out of the protected communities, and will increase in the coming months. DFID’s programme the majority of violence is now taking place away from to support women’s political participation will build the populated areas. political capacity of female political candidates through There have been several successful operations in recent training and mentoring. That is part of a wider DFID months, which were notable not only for their size but programme to strengthen political governance in for their complexity and degree of co-ordination. For Afghanistan and has been fast-tracked so that our example, the ANSF launched Operation Seamough at support for women’s political participation is embedded the end of July—a combined clearance, security and long before the elections. Ahead of the election, the international aid mission to secure the main supply Afghan Government must continue to meet the needs routes south of Kabul. That operation involved more of their people. DFID is taking an active role in supporting than 1,300 Afghan security personnel, working alongside the lives of ordinary Afghans, be it to improve their other arms of the Afghan Government, as well as livelihoods or exercise their rights. humanitarian organisations. In line with the clear progress Our support for the HALO Trust in removing landmines of the Afghan national security forces, the UK and our and unexploded ordnance from land in Herat province international security assistance force partners are in western Afghanistan continues to deliver excellent continuing the process of draw-down and redeployment. results. Reporting from the HALO Trust and the United 913 Afghanistan17 OCTOBER 2013 Afghanistan 914

Nations High Commissioner for Refugees shows that, Finally, the UK Government look forward to co-chairing thanks to UK aid, more than 20,000 families, many of with the Afghan Government the 2014 ministerial meeting whom are internally displaced people, have benefitted to assess further progress against the Tokyo mutual from the return of land to productive use in the Jebrail accountability framework. We expect that that will take township in Herat. Hazara refugees returning from Iran place three to six months after the formation of the next also benefit. Between April and June this year, HALO Afghan Government. Working together, the Afghan cleared more than 1.6 million square metres of land in Government and their international partners have a Herat province and disposed safely of two anti-personnel unique chance to set the conditions for political, security mines, 10 anti-tank mines, 63 unexploded ordnances and economic transition. We must continue to focus on and 1,609 small arms ammunitions. The UK has committed that over the coming months, and I commend this to making the whole of Herat province free from mines statement to the House. and unexploded ordnance by 2018. Elsewhere, UK support for the Afghan Government’s 12.4 pm comprehensive agriculture and rural development facility Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab): I thank continues to help farmers in four provinces across the Secretary of State for her statement and for advance Afghanistan to improve their livelihoods by increasing sight of it. I also thank her for her warm wishes. I look the value of agricultural crops and building better links forward to shadowing her, supporting her where possible to markets for their products. In Helmand, UK support and scrutinising when necessary, in particular when the for technical and vocational education and training has Government seek to forge a domestic and global consensus helped more than 15,000 graduates to secure employment, on the post-2015 agenda for international development. already exceeding the programme’s 2014 target. DFID is looking at how best to strengthen the programme We meet amidst myriad security challenges, and while further to ensure that graduates get the best out of their countless countries and communities seek UK support. training. For all the conflicts and the contest for resources, our commitment to Afghanistan must remain a constant We believe that DFID’s support for Afghan civil beyond the 2014 military draw-down. Our safety at society through the Tawanmandi programme is having home is in part dependent on the security and stability a lasting impact. One of Tawanmandi’s core partners, of that country. the Community Centre for the Disabled, has successfully We reflect on the fact that Afghanistan cannot become worked to improve the welfare of disabled people. As a a forgotten conflict in the knowledge that British men result of its efforts, the Government of Afghanistan and women are risking their all for our security. That have passed legislation to enshrine the rights and active was brought home to us with the news of the death of participation of disabled people in society. The second Lance Corporal James Brynin of the 14th Signal Regiment. call for Tawanmandi grant proposals has recently closed, His family and friends, and all those lost, are in the and we look forward in the near future to being able to thoughts of all of us and in the prayers of many of us. extend our support to more Afghan organisations, including those supporting women and youth groups. The Opposition support the Department for International Development’s work in Afghanistan and We are determined to support women in Afghanistan, we recognise that progress has been made. More children who continue to face severe challenges in their daily are attending school, access to health care is improving, lives, including the regular threat of violence. We are the economy is growing and, for the first time, Parliament- already providing support for girls’ education and women’s approved elections are forthcoming. Progress, however, empowerment in addition to working with the Government is not irreversible. Afghanistan remains one of the of Afghanistan to ensure they uphold their responsibilities poorest and most fragile countries in the world, progress and commitments to protect women. Earlier this year, I on the millennium development goals is slow, violence said I wanted to go further and make tackling violence and corruption persist and, while the courage of many against women a strategic priority for DFID’s work in individuals in the Afghan security force is not in doubt, Afghanistan. My officials have consulted experts, non- the resilience and capacity of that force remains uncertain. governmental organisations and Afghan women to ensure I would like to ask the Secretary of State questions that our implementation reflects their needs. I will announce about four areas. I start by asking whether she agrees our revised approach in due course. with the recommendation of the Select Committee on In July, DFID and Foreign and Commonwealth Office International Development that officials took part in a senior officials meeting in Kabul, “the UK Government reconsider DFID’s focus on creating a where donors reaffirmed their aid commitments of more ‘viable state’, giving greater emphasis to the provision of services than $16 billion until 2015. However, the international and alleviating poverty”. community also delivered a clear message that existing It would appear that the two are symbiotic and that, levels of aid will be at risk if the Afghan Government should the alleviation of poverty be sustainable and fail to take forward their reform commitments. As well services locally responsive, credible Afghan institutions as ensuring credible and inclusive elections, we are and a viable Afghan state are prerequisites. particularly keen to see progress on tackling corruption, The enabling of such a state, however, is, as the upholding women’s rights and managing the economy. Secretary of State herself alluded to, dependent on a Failure to deliver those reforms could jeopardise the reflective and genuine political settlement. These issues stability of Afghanistan. During the recent World Bank will come to the fore at next year’s Tokyo review conference, annual meetings in Washington, I met Finance Minister but the Secretary of State said that existing levels of aid Zakhilwal and reiterated the importance of Afghanistan will be “at risk” if the Afghan Government fail to take continuing to make credible progress on agreed reforms, forward their reform commitments. Will she say which including the International Monetary Fund programme. specific reforms she is referring to, and give an assessment 915 Afghanistan17 OCTOBER 2013 Afghanistan 916

[Mr Jim Murphy] taken to bear down on corruption and a successful outcome to the appeal process in relation to the Kabul of current progress and what is required to preserve bank corruption. We want to see the Afghan Government current levels of aid? More immediately, what has been continue to make significant progress in several areas, the impact of the arrest of senior Pakistan Taliban alongside the work that donors are doing on their leader, Latif Mehsud, on establishing a post-2014 security behalf. agreement? The right hon. Gentleman also asked about the post-2014 A political settlement is vital outside as well as inside security agreement and was right to point out that the the country. Will the Secretary of State tell the House bilateral security agreement under discussion between what discussions have taken place with the Government the US, predominantly, and Afghanistan is yet to be of Prime Minister Sharif regarding NATO convoy routes, finalised. Ultimately, that is a matter for the US transportation of British equipment from Afghanistan Government, but clearly we are committed to playing through Pakistan, and Pakistan’s support in the run-up our role in a NATO-led process after 2014, and as he to Presidential elections? will be aware, to date, we have been very clear that that It was a shared belief of the international community will focus on our work with the Afghan national army that female advancement was vital to delivering a secure officer academy. In addition, alongside that support, we society across Afghanistan. It was concerning, therefore, will provide security and support for any UK personnel that the International Development Committee recently involved. stated that “the situation for women” had “deteriorated The right hon. Gentleman rightly flagged up the in some respects”. The Secretary of State rightly talked massively important relationship between Afghanistan about wider research and work. I invite her to update and Pakistan, and of course he will know that the UK the House on progress on the implementation of UN has played a key role in brokering the so-called trilateral Security Council resolution 1325 relating to the role of talks, which have seen the UK bring together Afghanistan women in conflict, and on whether members of the and Pakistan. At the World Bank meetings at the weekend, Afghan civil service and military are being educated in I met both Ishaq Dar, the Pakistan Finance Minister, the terms of that resolution. and Minister Zakhilwal, the Afghanistan Finance Minister, We on the Opposition Benches are committed to both of whom made it clear that they saw as key the effective delivery of aid. We know that that means that need to grow economic links, in particular, between expertise on the ground is essential; but it is also compulsory Pakistan and Afghanistan. I was encouraged by their in Whitehall. I pay tribute to the many civilian staff enthusiasm to work together and follow up those initial whose integrity and ingenuity is so central to our nation’s discussions between their respective Governments with proud development record. Reports of high staff turnover meetings over the coming months. As I told them, the and loss of capacity in DFID, however, are a worry. UK stands ready to play its role in helping that relationship Can the Secretary of State say, therefore, how the to grow and become a positive one. numbers of individuals working on Afghanistan in her The right hon. Gentleman rightly flagged up the Department have changed since 2010? Specifically, how challenge of ensuring that we do not lose the gains we many staff have Afghan linguistic skills? have seen on women and girls. This is a massively Finally, this is the UK’s fourth military campaign in important point. I have elevated the issue of violence Afghanistan. We have no intention of there ever being a against women and girls to a strategic priority for my fifth. In a conflict that has never had a purely military team to ensure that it never gets lost within the work solution, the success of the DFID mission will be that we do. It is worth bearing in mind the context. For increasingly crucial in building the lasting stability that a start, life expectancy in Afghanistan is 49, while 87% our armed forces have fought so tenaciously to secure. of women can expect to suffer violence during their lives. Under the Taliban, they faced the worst prospects Justine Greening: I thank the right hon. Gentleman of any women in the world. We are quite right, therefore, for those comments and questions. He is quite right that to focus on this issue, and Parliament is right to send our Afghanistan programme needs to take a balanced out a message that we believe this matters massively. I approach. Alongside our work on livelihoods, it needs wanted to take this opportunity to thank colleagues to focus on basic service provision. In fact, as he will from across the House for enabling us to speak with one know, much of the work done through the Afghanistan voice on this agenda over the past 12 months. I spend a reconstruction trust fund has focused very much on lot of time talking with women in Afghanistan—I had a that—on schools and health. Particularly in places such chance to meet parliamentarians there—and I know as Helmand, the UK has played a leading role in the that it makes a difference to them. I can assure him, provincial reconstruction team to ensure that those therefore, that this will remain a priority, and over the things happen on the ground. coming weeks I will set out how we will up our game. The right hon. Gentleman asked about the challenges Finally, the right hon. Gentleman talked about staff and risks around donors’ support for Afghanistan going in Afghanistan with linguistic skills. Obviously, the UK forward. What the donors want, including the UK, is Government work closely, including on development, for people to stick to what was agreed in Tokyo and the with many locally employed staff, which helps to ensure mutual accountability framework. It is very important that we have the right skills in place. We recognise that it that we see the progress that ultimately can only be is an incredibly dangerous and challenging place for made by the Afghan Government, particularly by passing anyone to work in, which is why we have been clear that the necessary laws through Parliament. The law on the we want to be responsible and help those people in elimination of violence against women, for example, danger after working for the UK Government. That is which has passed through Parliament, must now be why we have been clear about a repatriation package seen to be implemented. We also need to see action where we think those risks are significant. 917 Afghanistan17 OCTOBER 2013 Afghanistan 918

Several hon. Members rose— country remains secure in the future. The contribution they have made to our nation is incalculable, and we Mr Speaker: Order. This is an important statement, should recognise that, honour it and never forget it. but I remind the House that there are two debates to follow under the auspices of the Backbench Business Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): The Afghan security Committee, the first of which is especially heavily subscribed, forces cannot be sustained financially by the Afghan so I must appeal to colleagues to ask single, short Government, certainly not in the short to medium term. supplementary questions, without preamble, and to the What discussions have the UK Government had with Secretary of State for her customarily pithy replies. their counterparts in the USA about post-2014 funding for the Afghan security forces? Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con): What does my right hon. Friend regard as the greatest Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman will be aware strategic threat to the longer-term success of our mission that under the Tokyo mutual accountability framework in Afghanistan? and the summit that saw it emerge, donor countries committed to giving, on average, about $4 billion of Mr Speaker: A master class from the Chairman of annual support up to 2017. As I pointed out to the right the Defence Committee. hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy), that is a contract between ourselves and the Afghan Government Justine Greening: Ultimately, it will be having successful that needs them to deliver on the part of the framework elections that can deliver a leadership in Afghanistan relating to progress that only they can make. There is, able to create a state that can keep itself secure. Without however, a commitment and will to ensure that funding security, all our development work, including that on is in place for the Afghan national security force. I women and girls, will be undermined. Ultimately, what should also say, briefly, that we are working to help the matters is having strong leadership in Afghanistan, Afghan Government to increase their tax base, so that which we hope to get following the 2014 elections. they do not need to rely so much on the donor community. In fact, tax receipts have risen from $200 million several Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Does the Secretary years ago to more than $2 billion, in part thanks to of State agree with the secret Ministry of Defence DFID’s work with the tax revenue authority to help it document, published in response to a freedom of do a better job. information request, advising the Government to conceal the news of deaths in Afghanistan and elsewhere in Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): order to make future deaths more palatable? I do not Is my right hon. Friend aware that the loss of British know whether she has visited the facilities at Brize servicemen’s lives in Afghanistan is more than double Norton, but it is clear that there are no facilities there to what it was in Iraq, which was only 179—I say “only”!—and express grief, as there were on previous bases. Is it not that the cost of operations in Afghanistan has so far right that the public understand the full effect of the been double what it was in Iraq? Given that we established grief of the relatives—a wound of grief that will never the Chilcot inquiry to look into lessons learned from heal—rather than have a Government who try to conceal Iraq, what consideration are the Government giving to the true cost of war? having a similar inquiry, once we have withdrawn, into what lessons can be learned from this long and bitter Justine Greening: I do not believe that there has been campaign? any such attempt. The UK has played a major part in the international security assistance force campaign Justine Greening: My hon. Friend makes an interesting and has played a correspondingly high price through point. Obviously we have yet to go through the draw-down the tragic loss and injury of UK servicemen and women. process, between now and the end of next year. His I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State point about the lessons we can learn from this conflict for Defence is committed to ensuring that their memory and the UK military role in it is well made and will will live on and that they can be commemorated certainly be considered at the highest level in Government. appropriately. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The Secretary Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Next Tuesday, of State’s commitment to dealing with violence against at a slightly earlier time than normal—3.15 pm— women is extremely welcome. One thing we have found 120 soldiers from 1st Mechanised Brigade, returning in this country is that it is helpful for women who want from Afghanistan, will arrive at the north door of to report violence to have women to whom they can Westminster Hall, where right hon. and hon. Members report it. Only 1% of the Afghanistan police force is will have the option to thank them for all they have female. What can the UK Government do to improve done. Does my right hon. Friend agree that their legacy—the on that? legacy of the 445 people who have died and the others who have been injured—will be a relatively stable and Justine Greening: We can continue our work with peaceful Afghanistan, and that the legacy of her work civil society, other donors and women’s groups across and that of other Departments will be to continue that Afghanistan to encourage and help women to become good work? part of the national police force. We can also continue DFID’s work as part of the Tawanmandi programme, Justine Greening: Yes, I absolutely pay tribute to the which has seen legal aid centres established in several work of those soldiers; they have put their lives on the districts, as well as mobile legal aid centres, so that the line, and many have lost their lives, in order to create a availability of justice for women goes well beyond having more stable Afghanistan that can be part of how this women in the national police to having a justice system 919 Afghanistan17 OCTOBER 2013 Afghanistan 920

[Justine Greening] the right choices, with a view to minimising the risk of kit perhaps being used against us in, heaven forbid, any that they can rely on. Clearly that is a huge challenge, future conflict. and I do not underestimate how far we are in Afghanistan from having the kind of justice system that people rely Justine Greening: Perhaps I can take this opportunity on and need here in the UK. to welcome my hon. Friend back to the House. It is great to see him in his place. To answer his point about Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Can the Secretary progress on redeployment, we have got about a third of of State reassure the House about the future, after 2014, the way through so far, in terms of equipment such as of the vital work that her Department is doing for motor vehicles and major equipment, but also some of Afghan women and girls, including through the girls the smaller matériel that we need to bring back from education challenge fund, the grants to War Child, Save Afghanistan. We are on track to bring back all the the Children and Afghanaid, and the work with the equipment we want to between now and the end of Independent Election Commission, which is improving 2014. As I have said, we will take a close look at value the visibility of women in the electoral process in that for money as we take those decisions. country? Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): In the summer of Justine Greening: Yes, I can. I think of the women 2008, 16 Air Assault Brigade transported a massive and girls agenda very much in terms of ensuring that power station turbine through hostile and difficult terrain women and girls have a voice and are participating in to the Kajaki dam. Five years later, may we have an communities and national societies at all levels, and update on the Kajaki dam mission? ensuring that they have a choice over how they run they lives and have control over their lives and their bodies. Justine Greening: That is a specific project that for They should not have to live in fear of violence. DFID some reason is not in my briefing, but I will write to the will continue to work across those areas and play what I hon. Gentleman and give him an update on progress. would like to be a major role in the Afghan donor community to ensure that we push this agenda. Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that we must do all we can Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): Let me associate ahead of next year’s important provisional and presidential myself with the remarks about Lance Corporal James elections to support the election commission to register Brynin, who makes me think of Corby’s own Victoria voters, particularly women? Cross hero, Lance Corporal James Ashworth, and the Ashworth family’s worry about the future of our troops Justine Greening: I very much agree with my hon. in Afghanistan after 2014. Given that they will be Friend. We are working in three areas: combating fraud, operating under a NATO mandate, can the Secretary which we know was a feature of previous elections, of State tell us who will be responsible for their safety registration and ensuring that women go out and vote. after 2014? We are working hand in hand with the United Nations Development Programme on the latter. Justine Greening: There is a NATO command structure in place, but perhaps I should take this opportunity to reassure the hon. Gentleman that the draw-down will Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): take place in a co-ordinated and agreed fashion within May I thank the Secretary of State for paying tribute to ISAF. We will ensure that our troops continue to have in Lance Corporal James Brynin, who was from Shoreham place not only the security to keep them safe and secure, in my constituency? He was bravely serving his country but the logistics needed to do their job effectively. on his second tour of Afghanistan and was helping to defend civilians and ISAF personnel when he came under attack. He was described by his family as having Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): On the draw-down the “heart of a lion” and by his commanding officer as of Her Majesty’s armed forces, may I encourage my right hon. Friend to discuss with the Defence Secretary “immensely popular and an outstanding soldier in every respect.” returning as much kit and equipment as is practicable Lance Corporal Brynin was fighting for the safety of and practical back to the UK and, in particular, hosting people in Afghanistan. When I visited Tajikistan a it at RAF Cosford and MOD Donnington in my while ago, I taught in a school of Afghan refugees, who constituency, where there is lots of space? spoke well of their education in Afghanistan—they spoke excellent English—and the support for their schools, Justine Greening: I am sure that the Secretary of but had been driven out of their country by threats of State for Defence will have heard that kind offer. The kidnap and non-military violence from the Taliban and redeployment of equipment is driven by operational others. What is being done to stem the flow of people requirements predominantly and, then, an assessment out of their country, so that we can look after them of what is value for money. I can assure my hon. Friend safely in their own country, where they belong? that the first desire is to see equipment redeployed or, if not, sold, or otherwise gifted or destroyed. Justine Greening: At the heart of all this is the work we have done to staff up and help to improve the Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): May Afghan national security force, which includes not only I ask the Secretary of State how the repatriation of kit the army and the police but latterly the air force as well. is going? Is the timing on schedule or are there any As I said in my statement, they are now conducting 93% major problems? Given the choice of what we leave of operations and 90% of their own training. The behind, I hope we are also being sensible and making draw-down takes place against the backdrop of our 921 Afghanistan17 OCTOBER 2013 Afghanistan 922 continuing work to ensure that they can play the role we simply must give Afghan farmers an alternative to that my hon. Friend describes in the coming years. That cultivating poppies. That has clearly been a real challenge. role is vital, because as I said earlier, without security We have seen some significant progress, but the challenge Afghanistan will not develop in the way that the people remains, which is why DFID’s livelihoods work will there and we want it to. continue.

Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): In my experience of Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): I was delighted being on operations in Bosnia and working with aid to hear the Secretary of State mention the HALO Trust workers, it was crucial that they were able to work in a which, along with MAG, is helping to de-mine large secure environment. After December 2014, it will be areas all over the world. When the Select Committee much more difficult. May I ask for my right hon. went to Afghanistan, I noticed that women were employed Friend’s assurance that as much effort as possible is to de-mine areas, which helps to raise their status in the made in DFID to ensure the security of the large country. I hope that we will be able to continue to fund number of our aid workers left in Afghanistan when that in the future and the wonderful ICRC-funded British soldiers are largely withdrawn? hospital—everyone who works there is at least a single amputee if not a double amputee, providing fantastic Justine Greening: I hope I can reassure my hon. role models for disabled people. Friend that that is a constant preoccupation of mine, not just in Afghanistan but in all our country programmes Justine Greening: I am very grateful for that question. where DFID staff are working. As we have seen in a As I have said, we want to allow HALO to continue the different place, with the kidnap and, luckily, the subsequent important work it does and clear Herat province of release of Red Crescent workers in Syria recently, we mines by 2018. I can assure my hon. Friend her that this often carry out work in dangerous places. We should work on health, and particularly improving the access never forget that when we put in the resources to keep of pregnant women to health facilities, will continue to our staff safe, and I can assure my hon. Friend that that be one of our key priorities. is uppermost in our minds. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): Following my right Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): The hon. Friend’s reply to my hon. Friend the Member for UK has been given the task of taking a lead in reducing Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), how effective the narcotics trade and the growing of poppies in does she think the comprehensive agriculture and rural Afghanistan, which is essential if the country is to development facility really is? become a viable state subject to the rule of law. What Justine Greening: I think it has been effective, and the ongoing role will the UK have and how do we intend to main challenges in getting it to work effectively have transfer the responsibility to Afghan agencies? been to do security, which has fluctuated from month to month. We face a constant challenge in being able to Justine Greening: The principal route for DFID, aside work in the communities in Afghanistan. It is a challenge from our strengthening of institutions in the security that we meet, and I am proud of DFID’s work, particularly and policing spheres, has been the focus on livelihoods, with respect to livelihoods. As I have said, we will particularly in the agricultural sector. The reality is that continue that work. 923 17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 924

that. Just two years ago, the plan was to say, “We will Backbench Business not wind down the regular troops until we know that the reservists are up to strength”. That plan has changed. Defence Reforms [Relevant Documents: Oral evidence taken before the Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I agree with Defence Committee on 5 December 2012, on Future the hon. Gentleman, and the plan also changed in Army 2020, HC 803-i, Session 2012-13, and on 10 July respect of the original strategic defence and security 2013, HC 576-i; uncorrected oral evidence taken before review. It initially planned for a reduction of 7,000 troops, the Defence Committee on 8 October 2013, on Future but it suddenly increased to 13,000 and if recent press Army 2020, HC 576-ii; written evidence to the Defence reports are to be believed, it might be even higher. Committee, on Future Army 2020, reported to the House on 24 April, 9 July and 8 October 2013, and published on Mr Baron: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. the internet.] A number of changes to the plan have occurred, but to my knowledge, at no time have we had any explanation 12.32 pm from the Dispatch Box of why the plans have changed, of the cost implications or indeed of when they changed. Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): I beg The entire Army reforms depend on the successful to move, recruitment of reserves. Let us examine that for a moment, That this House notes concerns about the Government’s defence and let us remember that without such recruitment up reforms in relation to whether its proposals for the reserve forces to 30,000, the Army reform plans fall apart. What do will deliver either the anticipated cost savings or defence capability; and urges the Government to delay the disbandment of regular we know about recruitment so far? We know that TA units until it is established that the Army Reserve plan is viable numbers have been falling, not rising, since 2009 and and cost-effective. are now at their lowest ebb since 2007. We know today Let me first express my gratitude to the Backbench that new reservist recruitment targets are being missed. Business Committee for granting this debate. Many of The front page of The Daily Telegraph, under the heading us on both sides of the House believe this to be an “Reforms have left the Army in chaos” refers to documents important topic for discussion. clearly showing that reservist recruitment targets both for this and next year are being missed—and not just by I suggest that Government plans to replace 20,000 a small margin, but by a massive margin—thus bringing regulars with 30,000 reservists are on the rocks. Territorial the whole plan into doubt. Various reasons are put Army numbers are at a low ebb; reserve recruitment forward, including criticism of the Ministry of Defence targets are being missed; costs are rising; and there are for closing down local recruitment offices, and there is delays and disorganisation. The plans will produce neither talk about privatisation and Capita, but I think that is the anticipated cost-savings nor the capability envisaged. somewhat overplayed. What we know is that there has The time has come to say “Halt”—to halt the axing of been a lack of communication in the IT systems in the the regular battalions and units until we are sure that MOD as between Capita and Atlas. There are all sorts the reservist plans are both viable and cost-effective. We of reasons, but the bottom line is that key reserve run the risk of wasting taxpayers’ money on the back of recruitment targets are being missed. false economies and unrealistic expectations.

Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Were we Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): I not promised by the previous Secretary of State that the congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. cuts to the regular forces would happen only if it were The issue of recruitment targets within the reserve clear that we could increase the reserves? Yet that is not forces and the TA cannot be helped when it can take going to happen, so what happened to the original several months to get from someone signing up to join promise? to turning up for their first night’s training. That is too long for people to be delayed along their way. Mr Baron: My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the original plan, which was to allow the build-up of the Mr Baron: My hon. Friend, who has experience of reserves before we axed regular battalions because it these matters, makes a valid point. [Interruption.] Yes, was deemed that deployability was terribly important. he is my hon. and gallant Friend. Exchanges took place on the Floor of the House in Other reasons include the draw-down in Afghanistan, 2011 between the then Defence Secretary, my right hon. which is perhaps not encouraging reservists to sign up, Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), and and the fact that employers are reluctant to let key my right hon. Friend the Member for North East employees go. There is a host of reasons, but as I say, Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), which clearly confirm that the bottom line is that the key reserve recruitment targets the plan was to get the balance right—to build up the are being missed. Another key concern is that costs may reservists before winding down the regulars. be rising faster than anticipated, yet the Government My first questions, then, to the Minister of State, have not presented to Parliament a fully costed plan, Ministry of Defence, who is replying to the debate, are: despite numerous requests for them to do so. why and when did the plan change? To make this debate as productive as possible, I would be delighted to take Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): On that point, interventions from my right hon. Friend if he wishes to would the hon. Gentleman care to comment on an answer the questions we pose as the debate proceeds. I observation in the current issue of the Army Reserve think that the questions why and when the plan changed Quarterly to the effect that it is all to do with are wholly legitimate ones, because the plan has changed “rebalancing Her Majesty’s Forces in light of the country’s needs and the House should be in no doubt whatever about and resources in the years ahead”? 925 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 926

Mr Baron: I would need further clarification of the However, this is not just about the bits of the jigsaw comment, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that there is that we have seen. We know that there are hidden costs real concern about the plan among both the regular and further down the line. According to a recent report by the TA/reservist units in the Army, not just at the front the charity Combat Stress, reservists are twice as likely end but in the highest echelons. to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder as regular troops. We may be storing up a ticking time bomb for Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): I congratulate ourselves. The necessary support structures for reservists my hon. Friend on securing this timely debate. Before are not in place, and I should be interested to know he deals further with the question of cost, may I as a whether there are any proposals in that regard. layman suggest to him that, if the reservists cannot May I ask the Minister how much of the £1.8 billion— make up their membership in time for the disbandment spread over 10 years—has been set aside for the of the regular battalions, there is bound to be a gap in Government’s plans? We are told that that money has capability? been set aside and all is well, but there are various reports that some of it has already been eaten into. Has Mr Baron: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I shall any of it been spent, and if so, how much? be dealing with the capability gap—very briefly, if my While I am on the subject of costs, may I question the hon. Friend will forgive me—because I think that it is Minister about the impact assessment, which attempts an important issue, but may I test the patience of the to take an overall view of the costs? Again, we are House and stick to the cost issue for the time being? dealing with assumptions and projected usage rates, There is a real risk that, if costs rise faster than anticipated, and not all the figures are on the table, but I think we we shall create false economies that will bring the whole can all agree that the assessment is very dependent on project into doubt. That is terribly important, and we projected usage rates. The way in which the reserve are right to ask questions about it on behalf of the forces are used will depend on assumptions about future taxpayer. costs. The Government have not come here to present a Artificially low rates can create false economies. The fully costed plan, but the pieces of the jigsaw that we central case in the document seems to be based on an can see do not reveal a rosy picture. We know from the assumption of 3,000 annual deployments. I must ask Green Paper—and the Independent Commission to the Minister whether that projection is realistic, given Review the United Kingdom’s Reserve Forces has the original rationale of the reserve reforms. We are meant confirmed this—that it costs more to train a reservist to be replacing 20,000 regular troops with 30,000 reservists. than to train a regular. We know that those who leave If the central projected use is 3,000, something is not the regular forces to join the reserves will be given a adding up on the terrain. We need to examine the facts £5,000 bounty, payable over four years. We have some very carefully, because, again, we may be creating false questions about the reservist award, which is the difference economies and the taxpayer may be presented with a between reservists’ pay and what they earn in civilian much larger bill than was originally envisaged. life. We are told that the potential cost has been accounted for, but the assumptions have not been made clear. We Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): As my hon. also know that, because employers are reluctant to let Friend knows, I strongly support those who are concerned key employees go for extended periods, the Government about a capability gap, but I am slightly worried about have come up with an incentive for prospective employers some of the figures that he has given. For example, the amounting to £500 per reservist per month. Those are figure relating to the higher cost of training a reservist is all added costs, but we still do not know what the fully correct on a per-day basis, but it is not correct overall. costed plan is. What worries me is that, if Members give incorrect figures, the Government will very quickly knock them Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): My hon. Friend back. Let us stick to the main thrust, which is our fear referred to the Independent Commission to Review that there will not be enough soldiers to fight in any the United Kingdom’s Reserve Forces. I serve on the future deployments that may take place. commission, and I do not accept his statistic. Broadly speaking, the cost of a reservist is about a fifth of the Mr Baron: I am indeed very worried about the possibility cost of his regular counterpart. In America, it is about a that we shall not have enough troops to deploy. I refer quarter, and my guess is that following the changes that my hon. Friend to the Green Paper, which states that it we are making, it will be something between a quarter costs more to train a reservist than to train a regular. and a fifth. However, he has made a valid point about the manpower gap, which I think is a central issue of concern. Will Mr Baron: I must say to my hon. Friend, with the 30,000 reservists be enough, even if they can be recruited? greatest respect, that he has confused training with According to figures from the Ministry of Defence, the deployment. There is no argument in the House about present TA mobilisation rate is 40%. In other words, for the fact that reservists will be cheaper; the question is, every 100 TA soldiers on paper, 40 are deemed to be how much cheaper will they be? When costs are rising, deployable at any one time. That suggests that if we are do we enter the terrain of false economies—which plugging a gap left by 20,000 regulars, we shall need brings into doubt the whole question of value for 50,000 reservists, not 30,000. money and whether the plan should have been instigated In response to a letter sent to him a while ago by in the first place? I was talking about training. There 25 Conservative Members, the Secretary of State suggested has been a dispute about whether it costs more to train a mobilisation rate of 80%. He said: a regular, but my hon. Friend should know from the “The total strength target for the Army Reserve in 2020 is 38,000, Green Paper that it costs more to train a reservist. in order to deliver 30,000 trained reservists. 927 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 928

[Mr Baron] What research has been undertaken to ensure that the money earmarked is sufficient to bring reservist units May I ask the Minister what research, what study, what up to the same standard as regulars upon deployment? evidence justifies the claim that the MOD’s budgets will That is especially important given that it appears that double the mobilisation rate? It is one thing to recruit human rights legislation will require equal training and 30,000 reservists, but doubling the mobilisation rate as equipment. That has not been raised much in the debate well would require an extremely large investment. Many thus far, but human rights legislation is a concern in the of us would be interested to know what evidence supports sense that it is going to say, “Any troops put into the the claim that the £1.8 billion that has been put aside field, reservist or regular, have to have equal training will achieve both those objectives. It is a very, very tall and equipment.” I would be interested to hear the order. Minister’s thoughts on that. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere There is a concern that these plans are having a (Mr Clappison) raised the issue of the capability gap, distorting effect on the ground. I come back to the fact and he was right to do so, because there is a fear that the that well-recruited battalions are being axed, including Government plans risk creating such a gap. The Army my own battalion, the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment reforms were put together before the strategic defence of Fusiliers, yet more poorly recruited, and therefore and security review, and since then a string of events more expensive, battalions are being saved. Such a have changed the international strategic dynamic. The policy reinforces failure. Can the Minister justify the nature of conflict is changing. Previously, it was thought decision for 2RRF to replace on the list one of the more of very much in binary terms—there would be one bloc poorly recruited battalions when it was not on the against another bloc—but more fluid geopolitical forces original list of five battalions to be scrapped? We know, are now at play, both state and non-state. War is becoming because we have seen it in writing from the MOD, that more asymmetrical, and we need well trained, agile, five battalions were originally due to be axed as they regular forces at high readiness if we are to meet the had poor recruitment figures. One of those was replaced. challenges that lie ahead. There is no disguising among They had to go looking for another battalion and they the military their frustration about the fact that they fell upon 2RRF, which happened to be the best-recruited could not have been more supportive to the French in battalion in the British Army. Many fusiliers and their Mali. The penny may have dropped on that side of the families in swathes of constituencies across the north channel, but it has not yet dropped on this side. and the midlands of England would like an answer to I must ask the Minister whether 40 days’ training is that question. really enough. Let us be absolutely clear about this: the Government’s plans represent a step-change in our Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): Both 2RRF and the approach. We are proposing to deploy whole units of 1st Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers are very reservists into the field. We have got to ask serious close to my heart, my dad having been a member of the questions about this. Some would say, “Well, it happens Royal Northumberland Fusiliers before and during the in the US with the National Guard,” but it is, perhaps, second world war. I wonder what the MOD wants out not fully appreciated that the US National Guard has of our defence forces. One of the battalions to be axed, its own bases and its own equipment and training 2RRF, is referred to as “Daring in all”, and it is said: programmes. They take it very seriously in the US; they “Where ever the Fusiliers have deployed to they have proved throw a lot of money at it, and even then the National capable of meeting every challenge with courage, determination Guard units are not infantry units. That is the interesting and a will to win.” thing: the National Guard units are not infantry units, That is on the Army website. despite the investment the US puts into it. Mr Baron: That goes without saying. I sympathise Mr Brazier: My last visit to a National Guard infantry with what the hon. Gentleman says. We have still not unit was in Kabul about a year and a half ago. It was yet had a straightforward answer to a straightforward doing an excellent security job, and it also had detached question: 2RRF was not in the original five; those five platoons along the Pakistani border. Some 60% of the were chosen because of their poor recruitment and American infantry is in the National Guard and 40% is retention figures; one was removed and they had to go in its regular army. looking for another battalion to take its place; and they just happened to fall upon the best-recruited battalion in the British Army, and one with a very proud recruiting Mr Baron: All I would say to my hon. Friend is that history. We recruit from across the major cities of there is a general view that the National Guard is very Lancashire, Warwickshire and Northumberland— much focused on supporting roles, and the Americans Newcastle, Coventry, Birmingham, Manchester—as well treat their National Guard very differently from what I as from London, yet we were told we were having think is being proposed here. For example, I do not trouble with our recruitment, and that is simply not the know of there being any details about separate training case. programmes, operational programmes or equipment programmes in the Government’s plans, which we have No wonder ex-military chiefs are critical. Many are yet to see. All we are asking is to see those plans, pointing out that strategic thought has been abandoned because £1.8 billion may sound like a lot of money but at a time when many other countries, not necessarily it is spread over 10 years, and we must consider the scale friendly to the west, are increasing their defence budgets. of what we are asking—not just raising 30,000 reservists, They are asking all politicians to think again. or, to be more accurate, adding another 12,000 or There comes a stage with any struggling project when 13,000 reservists, but doubling the mobilisation rate. common sense and evidence dictate a revaluation and That is a very big ask indeed. I believe we have reached that point now. There is no 929 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 930 doubt—let us be clear about this—that reservists are be present, hard working and seen to be valuable to the cheaper than regulars, but rising costs threaten the company. Especially given today’s high living standards anticipated cost savings and raise the very real prospect and bills, no one wants to risk losing their job. Many of false economies, and that is before we consider the employers will also be very reluctant to make the extra issue of capability gaps, yet the Government seem demands of their employers. We must remember that determined to plough on with this misguided plan and being a reservist does not mean taking hours off; it can play down concerns. mean taking weeks off. There will be a real fear that That is evidenced today by this important debate being a reservist can jeopardise someone’s career. That having been downgraded, I believe, to a one-line Whip. is not to say that people will not volunteer to be That does not surprise me, but, all the same, I think it reservists, but when push comes to shove reservists will speaks volumes about the Government’s approach. This put their employment first. is a very important issue and the debate has been very I understand that there are to be incentives for employers well-subscribed to, yet we drop it down to a one-line to take on reservists, but, again, I fear that when work is Whip at a time when the Government have still not demanding and a deadline is looming employers would produced fully costed plans and there are very real rather have their employee at work and will put pressure concerns about whether 30,000 reservists can plug a gap on reservists accordingly. Furthermore, I understand left by 20,000 regulars. that the Territorial Army’s current mobilisation rate I intend to test the will of the House on this motion. stands at 40%, so only 40 of every 100 soldiers are The time has come to say “Halt”—halt to the axing of deemed fit for deployment. Given that figure, we have the regular battalions until we know that the reservist to bear in mind that we are going to need to recruit plan is both viable and cost-effective; otherwise the about 50,000 reservists, rather than 30,000. The TA has taxpayer could bear the brunt of many false economies had a net loss in officers and soldiers since 2009; TA to come. numbers are now at their lowest level since 2007. I also understand from recent reports that the reserves recruitment Several hon. Members rose— drive, which ought now to be in full swing, is falling well short of its targets for both this year and next. I will Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. May leave others to discuss the strategic considerations and I remind Members that there is a six-minute limit? the cost of the plans, which is considerable and escalating. I simply call on the Government to delay the axing of 12.57 pm the 20,000 regulars until it is beyond doubt that the Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I reserves plan is viable and cost-effective. Let us wait to congratulate the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay see what the reservists plans look like before making (Mr Baron) on securing this debate. It is the second such significant cuts. such debate he has secured, and in the first debate we Ian Mearns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for won the vote but the Government did not take a blind giving way, because it gives me the opportunity to bit of notice. I hope they will do so today. highlight the sad disbandment of the 72 Engineers Like the hon. Gentleman, I had the pleasure the Regiment, which has its headquarters in my constituency. other day of helping to hand in a petition to No. 10 Although it is to be amalgamated into other regiments, Downing street, when I met, and talked to, many of the the 72 Engineers Regiment has a long history of residency ex-fusiliers. There is no doubt that they feel very strongly in my constituency and has the freedom of the borough. about what has happened to their regiment and battalions. Many people in the borough are deeply saddened to see I appreciate that periodical reorganisations are necessary the demise of the regiment. and that cuts sometimes might be required to ensure efficiency, but let us be clear: that is not what is happening Mr Cunningham: I am sure that most of the House here. This is a financial, not a strategic, change. would agree with my hon. Friend. The Government say these cuts will not affect our We need to ensure that we do not cause unnecessary military capability, but they clearly will. We are losing costs to the taxpayer and that we do not damage our whole battalions—20,000 troops are to be axed. The military capability. Finally, I urge the Government to Government know this will damage our military capability, consider abandoning the plan to disband the 2nd Battalion creating gaps that will cost us both financially and of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers altogether. It is an strategically. That is why they keep insisting that their excellent battalion with a proud history—the Warwickshire plans for reservists will fill this gap. That may or may county regiment is part of that history—particularly not be the case. I am not a military expert and do not during the second world war, and it has an outstanding wish to discuss whether or not 30,000 reservists are a track record of recruitment. I urge the Government to substitute for 20,000 regulars. I do, however, have experience reconsider disbanding it while keeping more poorly of industry and, as a result, I am highly sceptical of the recruited, and therefore more expensive, battalions. Government’s plans. 1.2 pm I fear that the Government are being highly optimistic in relying on 30,000 reservists. To be in the Territorial Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): I welcome Army is admirable and I respect all reservists, but it is this debate and I congratulate my hon. and gallant admirable because it is a serious time commitment—and, Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) more than that, they can sometimes put themselves in on securing it. It is also a pleasure to follow the hon. harm’s way. In today’s economic climate, it is not easy Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham). for people to request time off from their employer, let I understand my hon. and gallant Friend’s loyal defence alone take large amounts of time off. If companies are of his fine former regiment. As the 100th anniversary of tightening their belts, employees feel it is important to the start of the first world war is almost upon us, it is 931 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 932

[Mr Julian Brazier] recruiting group—officer applicants and ex-regulars—are both improving. So, first, we need to get more of the time to remember six Lancashire and Warwickshire control over the enlistment process back with the units Fusiliers who won Victoria Crosses in that war. Sir John again. French made the famous remark that without the Territorial units available at the very beginning of the fighting we Mr Baron: May I suggest that this is a clear example would have lost in France before the war had really of where the plan is driven by costs, rather than by begun. strategic design? The cost for Capita to take on the The reality is that we have a good plan that is being recruitment was derived in large part by scaling down, if unevenly implemented. America’s land forces are almost not selling up completely, local recruitment offices. So exactly split 50:50 between regulars and volunteer reserves. to start opening those offices, although a sensible Canada has 44% regulars and Australia has 36% regulars; proposition, would require additional cost if we are in all countries there are more reserve infantry than going to reverse that recruitment loss. regulars. Uniquely, Britain has a target that is much less ambitious. It is broadly the case that a reservist costs a Mr Brazier: My hon. and gallant Friend makes an fifth of the price of a regular. All of us who are keen on interesting point. That is not what I am arguing for, defence would like more resources to be allocated to although I would strongly argue that it is ridiculous that defence. Indeed, more than 20 years ago, I stepped down the offices we still retain are open 9 am to 5 pm Monday from my post in government as a Cabinet Parliamentary to Friday instead of, for example, 9 am to 9 pm Tuesday Private Secretary over that issue. However, the reality is to Thursday, which would allow the people there to do that we have to work within these very difficult economic both jobs rather than only regulars. I am calling for times, and the alternative to 30,000 reservists is not more emphasis on the units. A temporary measure has 20,000 regulars, but somewhere between 6,000 and 7,500, been adopted in that area, which I suggest should be and that would be if we got rid of all the specialist more permanent—it need not be expensive. medics, cyber-people and so on whom the Regular The second major change we need is to have a senior Army does not have. reservist officer in the recruiting group who is tasked I therefore strongly support this plan; I have seen the with talking to units and who has real power in the way work of American and Australian reservists, and I am in which decisions in that area are made. We have done proud that 20% of the British division that captured it at Land Command at the senior level, where two southern Iraq was made up of reservists. However, I am highly effective successive deputy commanders at Land concerned about some of the details of how the plan is in that position have worked well, and the improvements being implemented. From the beginning, Ministers and in the proposition have stemmed in no small part from the Chief of the General Staff have made a strong that. The same needs to be done in the recruiting group. commitment to it. Ministers have secured the support The third change we need is on a relatively small of every employers’ organisation in the country. The scale, as seven or eight changes among the 400-odd CGS, starting with his own pitch to employers in his decisions that had to be made to the location of the excellent article in the Financial Times, immediately reserves are not right. Seven or eight really well-recruited spotted the governance issue by appointing, for the first sub-units have been wrongly selected for disbandment, time since the second world war, a TA two-star—a including the best-recruited squadron in the yeomanry, major-general—to play a pivotal role in it. The problems which is going down to troop level, the best-recruited largely lie within the recruiting group. At a time when battery in the TA gunners and three or four well-recruited the proposition has improved immeasurably as a result infantry sub-units. of changes the Army Board is making, it is deeply depressing that this department is failing to deliver. I believe that this plan is achievable and it is moving us in the direction of the allies we fight alongside. It is a I have before me the monthly recruiting statistics for good plan; it just needs an improvement in implementation. one unit—I will not disclose which, for obvious reasons. In the 12 months before the first push on TA recruiting in autumn 2011, the unit had enlisted between three 1.10 pm and 12 people a month. The figures after that push are: Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): It is an 15 for November 2011, 21 for December 2011 and honour to follow the hon. Member for Canterbury 19 for January 2012. Then, for a reason not understood (Mr Brazier), who made an earnest plea. I also thank by anyone, the recruiting group introduced its new the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) system for medicals and common selection, without any for all he has done to secure the debate today and the market testing and without talking to units, and within debate last year. He deserves our support for what he three or four months the figures had dropped to one or said today. two a month. That muddle was sorted—it had nothing to do with Capita. Second time around, the arrangements This is an important debate, because, as yet, the with Capita—I do not blame Capita—were introduced Government have not made a good enough case for without any market testing or discussion with units. I their plans to reform the country’s armed forces completely am sure we have all dealt with cases of soldiers who by 2020. Furthermore, we know that, of the three have waited six or nine months with their documents services, the Army will be most affected by the Government’s repeatedly lost in the system. proposed changes. I confess that a particular concern Time is extremely short, so I want to suggest three for me from a local perspective is the plan to disband things that the Government need to do turn this around. 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. The units I talk to tell me again and again that there is A year ago, on 18 October, as my hon. Friend the more interest in joining the reserves and that the figures Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) has for the two groups that are not under control of the mentioned, the House debated the proposed disbandment 933 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 934 of that battalion. The vote was won, but we know that it respect. Those veterans—Jim, Terry, Jim the Stick and was not binding and the Defence Reform Bill is before Mac—fear for the future of their battalion and the Parliament with the disbandment proposals intact. opportunities for young people in the north-east to All the while, the Army is working to implement its follow them into a full-time Army career. restructuring by 2018. None of us wants to see the battalion or any other Colleagues speaking in support of this motion cannot unit disbanded in haste and without our being sure that yet see any evidence that supports the Government’s the Government’s plan is cost-effective and wholly workable. decision to give reservists a bigger role in defending the This House, our armed forces and the people of the country. To complete the transformation of the Army, country have a right to see evidence from the Government the Government must meet their target of recruiting that they can make the savings and maintain the level of 30,000 new reservists by 2018. However, the Assistant defence that they claim the reforms will deliver. Chief of the General Staff told the Defence Committee If the Government are serious about defence reform, in July of this year that achieving the 6,000 target for they must acknowledge the relevance of the motion and this year is “looking tough”. Even if recruitment improves, act in accordance with it. I support the motion and urge there are concerns from many quarters about how all other Members in Westminster today to do so, too. employers will react when their staff, serving as reservists, have to be deployed for up to 12 months at a time every five years. There is also concern that the compensation 1.15 pm of £500 a month to cover each reservist is too low to Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The first responsibility cover employers’ costs. of any Government is the defence of the realm. I put Moreover, can Future Force meet the same capability that point to the Prime Minister on the Floor of the levels as the Army today? With less time for training House and warned him that on his watch the size of the and with a voluntary role, these soldiers cannot be British Army will fall to the level it was at the time of expected to be comparable with full-time, fully trained the battle of Waterloo. and battle-ready Army personnel. I have considerable sympathy with the points that are being made about saving 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment Mr Brazier: I am listening carefully to what the hon. of Fusiliers. As a member of the Select Committee on Lady is saying. On the question about being battle-ready Defence, I will not venture too far in that direction, but and so on, under the American system the regular I will say that I have placed on record my reservations troops are used to seize ground and the reserve troops, and concerns about where the replacement of regulars who can bring extra expertise—they include policemen, of reservists will get to. I pointed out in an intervention farmers, business men and so on—are used to hold on my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Basildon ground. They are often more successful than regular and Billericay (Mr Baron) the fact that the current issue troops at building links with the local community. of Army Reserve Quarterly states: “These changes are not in isolation: they are part of rebalancing Mrs Glindon: The point at issue is the transformation Her Majesty’s Forces in light of the country’s needs and resources to reservists. in the years ahead following the 2010 Strategic Defence and So far, the Government have not been able to instil in Security Review, Securing Britain in an Age of Uncertainty.” either Members of this House or the people of this It goes on to say: country any confidence in their cost-cutting proposals, “The changes being made are modernising the Army to face an because they have not laid the figures on the table. unpredictable future, transforming the Army to one that is affordable, Instead, they have launched headlong into reform, wholly integrated, designed to be adaptable, and ready to meet announcing redundancies and undermining the morale the challenges of the future.” of our forces on active service. I remind the Minister My fear is that we might perhaps have a generational that the military covenant states that our military deserve challenge in the leadership of our major political parties. our support, respect and fair treatment, and they should I am of an age that I can remember the aftermath of the have that at all times. second world war and other conflicts, so I feel that As for the question of the depletion of our Regular reducing the size of Her Majesty’s armed forces to even Army, earlier this year I had the honour, along with the lower numbers than present is not in the national interest. hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), Today’s edition of The Daily Telegraph, a paper that I of taking to Downing street a 10,000-strong petition, follow— which was co-ordinated by the Newcastle Evening Chronicle and signed by the people of the north-east, asking the Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Avidly. Government not to disband the 2nd Battalion. On Tuesday this week, hundreds of fusiliers marched through Sir Bob Russell: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Whitehall in support of a national petition to save their providing a word I was struggling to find; it was not my battalion that was presented at 10 Downing street. It original thought, but it will do. was an emotional afternoon, charged with the pride of The Daily Telegraph reports today: a regiment that has the best recruitment record in the “Controversial plans to restructure the Army are ‘failing’ land, yet tinged with sadness and dismay that that because cuts to the defence budget are putting off potential new proud tradition could soon be consigned to history. soldiers…according to a leaked document”, After the march, I was honoured to bring four veterans and: from the north-east on their first visit to Parliament. I “The memo, which is understood to have had wide distribution am pleased to say that while I showed them around this within the Ministry of Defence, says that ‘disappointing’ recruitment great place, every member of staff and every MP we to the new Army Reserve means that targets for a larger part-time encountered treated them with the utmost courtesy and force will not be reached.” 935 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 936

[Sir Bob Russell] I should also declare an interest as a member of the Backbench Business Committee, because I was part of It goes on to quote that document, saying that the decision-making process for securing the debate “the Army faces ‘increased risk to its structure and operational today. I am rounding the circle. because I declared the capability’”. same interest in the Committee. The full-time Army has been cut from 102,000 to I have previously alluded to my sadness and that of about 82,000 and five battalions will be axed. As someone my constituents at the disbandment of the 72 Royal who would desperately like to see 3rd Battalion the Engineers TA Regiment. It was a real pleasure to attend Royal Anglian Regiment reinstated, I well understand an event here yesterday afternoon, mostly about the why people are anxious about battalion cuts. The cuts Royal Engineers, at which members of the 72 Regiment are supposed to be offset by a major expansion in the were present. We saw the great work that the Royal part-time reserve force, which is expected to grow from Engineers do across the country and in far-flung fields. 19,000 to 30,000. It is particularly disappointing that, as part of the review, in which we hoped to see an expansion of the Mr Brazier: Just while my hon. Friend is mentioning TA, the headquarters of the regiment was removed the distinguished Royal Anglian Regiment, one should from my constituency. As I said earlier, they have the also say that the Territorials have produced a number freedom of the borough, and we will see their passing of distinguished Members of Parliament, including with great regret. Sir Winston Churchill and the hon. Member for Raleigh, I referred in an intervention to the impending demise a former member of the Royal Anglians. of the 2nd Battalion Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, which Sir Bob Russell: Or indeed, the right hon. Member recruits mainly from the north-west. I am concerned for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois). I welcome a that if we disband the 2nd Battalion, that will leave one fellow Essex MP to the debate, and in a few minutes I full-time regular battalion within that regiment. Using will also be delighted to welcome from Essex the new the Government’s own defence review criteria, single- Deputy Speaker. It is good to see an Essex girl doing so battalion regiments are automatically subject to review, well. so that would place in jeopardy the last remaining 1st Battalion of full-time regular soldiers within the Royal The Daily Telegraph says that the 10-page report Regiment of Fusiliers. The regiment is close to my heart. dated 6 August and marked “Restricted” claims that the It was my dad’s regiment; he was a regular soldier, Army is currently recruiting barely half the number of serving in Palestine and north Africa. He was captured new reservists needed to hit the target. It says: in the early days of the second world war before becoming “The Army is currently failing to attract and recruit sufficient a prisoner of war for a number of years. I wonder why Army Reserve personnel. Reserve info numbers in Quarter 1 are disappointing. If this continues the Army will miss its challenging we are seeing the potential demise of such a regiment, inflow targets both this year and next.” which dates back almost 330 years. That would have consequences for the full-time Army. I really wonder what more we want from our service The report continues: personnel than what the Fusiliers already provide. “Only 376 recruits joined the Reserve between April and June, According to the Army website, missing a target of 1,432. That puts the Army on course to recruit “The First Fusiliers epitomise the modern British soldier … only 50% of the overall 2013-14 target”. The Second Fusiliers are a superb, operationally hardened, light The defence of the realm should be based on the role infantry battalion.” defence needs of the nation; it should not be resources They are supported by the 5 RRF, a TA battalion, which led. I get the distinct impression that it is being resources has stations at Alnwick, Ashington, Newcastle, Tynemouth, led. I pay tribute to our service personnel and their Washington, Bishop Auckland and Doncaster—mainly families. I suggest to my colleagues, friends and chums a north-east regiment of the territorial reserve force. We on the Government Front Bench that, should windfall have grave concerns about the future of the Royal funds materialise from the disposal of MOD assets, Regiment of Fusiliers per se. which they could well do, the money should be used Comparisons between the capability of our TA reserve primarily to modernise our Army married housing. The forces and front-line regular forces and that of the modernisation programme is currently on hold because American services are almost meaningless. Given the it is claimed that the country cannot afford it, but as size of the American regular capability and the resources heard in Prime Minister’s Question Time yesterday, the available to it, to compare them with our regular forces, economy is improving. So if there is an MOD windfall, who I believe are much better troops on the ground I suggest that the money goes on improving our housing. even though they are obviously many fewer in numbers, I should like to end on an upbeat subject and advise is meaningless. I would ask Government Members not the House that on Wednesday 6 November at 7.30 in to make such comparisons because they demean this the atrium of Portcullis House the Colchester military debate. wives choir will be making a return visit. Everyone is I welcome the debate and ask the Government to welcome to come along and hear them. think again about the proposals. There could be hidden cost implications down the line, and we worry about 1.22 pm our real defence capability come 2020. Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) 1.27 pm on securing this debate. It is an honour and a privilege Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): It is a great to follow the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Russell). We reside on the same corridor upstairs, and Mearns), and I thank him and his colleagues on the exchange pleasantries on a daily basis. Backbench Business Committee for taking note of the 937 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 938 submission made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hon. Members: Hear, hear. Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), me and other hon. Members from across the House at last week’s meeting, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark and for granting this debate today. Francois): Will my hon. Friend give way? This matter is one of enormous importance to my constituents in Bury, and I want to explain briefly why Mr Nuttall: Certainly. that is. The motion refers to the disbandment of regular Army units. As we have already heard, one of the units Mr Francois: We on the Government Benches have to be disbanded is the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment noted, Madam Speaker, that you have achieved what of Fusiliers. Bury has long been a productive recruiting the military would call an initial operating capability. ground for the Fusiliers—originally the Lancashire Fusiliers We wish you the very best and we are sure that you will raised in 1688, who had their barracks in the town of succeed. Bury, as I know you are well aware, Mr Deputy Speaker. Following a previous reorganisation of the regular Army Mr Nuttall rose— units, back on 23 April 1968, the Lancashire Fusiliers Mr Kevan Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? joined the Royal Northumbrian Fusiliers, the Royal Warwickshire Fusiliers and the Royal Fusiliers to form Mr Nuttall: Certainly. part of the new Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. The people of Bury are extremely proud of the town’s Mr Jones: May I, from the Opposition Benches, links with the Fusiliers. The town is home to the Fusiliers welcome you to the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker? I museum, which has recently moved from the site of the see that you are getting clear guidance from your fellow old barracks to a new venue right in the heart of the Deputy Speaker. From my experience of the right hon. town. This was visited by the Secretary of State for Member for Chorley (Mr Hoyle), I would not listen too Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for South closely to him on every occasion, as he has a mischievous West Surrey (Mr Hunt), when he was shadow Secretary sense of humour. of State for Culture, Media and Sport. Just a few weeks ago, my right hon. Friend the current Secretary of State Mr Nuttall: My constituents in Bury are concerned for Culture, Media and Sport also visited the museum. that not enough reservists will be recruited to fill the Earlier this year, in the summer, the Bury parish massive hole that will be left by the disbandment of the church played host to the funeral of Drummer Lee 2nd Battalion. The original plan was to keep the Regular Rigby—a Fusilier—who was so brutally murdered here Army battalions in place until it was clear that the plan in London. The church is the garrison church of the to replace them with reservists was viable. It surely Fusiliers. Each year on the Sunday nearest 25 April makes sense to be absolutely certain that the reservists Bury commemorates the terrible losses sustained by the recruitment plans are on track before the regular units Fusiliers at Gallipoli in 1915. The Fusiliers were awarded are disbanded. We have heard from my hon. Friend the six Victoria Crosses for the bravery that they displayed Member for Basildon and Billericay that the plan to at that landing, and famously they are remembered as recruit more reservists is behind schedule, but we should having won six VCs before breakfast. not have to rely on leaks published in The Daily Telegraph. We must never lose sight of the reason why the What are the facts? Exactly how many reservists should Government have had to make these difficult decisions. have been recruited by now? Exactly how many have It is right that the defence budget must be balanced; no been recruited? They are not a cheap option. We need to one disputes that. It is nevertheless prudent constantly know the facts. I urge the House to vote for the motion. to review the plans that the Government have put in place and monitor them to ensure that they are on track 1.34 pm and that they will deliver the planned savings. My constituents are understandably angry and disappointed Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): Madam Deputy that the 2nd Battalion is being disbanded at a time when Speaker, it is a pleasure to see you in your place. I there is so much uncertainty in the world. On Tuesday support the comments of my colleagues. this week I was honoured to meet the hundreds of I commend my hon. and gallant Friend the Member former Fusiliers and their families who marched down for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) for his persistence Whitehall to hear the speeches in Old Palace Yard. This in raising these questions. As has been said, the Government was the second such march, following the one we had plan to more than double the size of the TA to 38,000. last year. It is just one indication of the strength of That figure has not been used yet, but as I understand feeling not just in Bury, but in all the towns from which it, that is the target figure, of which 30,000 will be the Fusiliers recruit right across the country. potentially on call. At the same time the number of The 2nd Battalion is one of the best—if not the regulars will be reduced by 20,000. The motion best—recruited battalions in the British Army. My “notes concerns” constituents ask why Scottish battalions, which are about whether these reforms much more poorly manned, are being retained when the “will deliver either the anticipated cost savings or defence capability”. 2nd Battalion is being disbanded. They wonder whether the answer has anything to do with the impending My sympathies are with the members of the Government referendum on independence for Scotland. Front-Bench team, whom I know reasonably well after Madam Deputy Speaker, may I be the first hon. three years here. I know that none of them wishes to be Member of this House to welcome you to your new in this position. position, to congratulate you on your election as Deputy During my nine years in the Army, I worked alongside Speaker, and to wish you well in your new role in the many reservists. They were capable, professional and House? dedicated. Their magnificent contribution to many recent 939 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 940

[Richard Drax] hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay has said, the statistics show that reservists are operations from Afghanistan to Iraq to Libya leaves us 50% more likely to suffer from post-traumatic stress in no doubt of their valour or significance. However, disorder than their regular counterparts. reservists have other priorities in their lives, and that is I question whether the £1.8 billion investment over even more pertinent in today’s tough and competitive the next 10 years will be adequate. The Government’s world. For these reasons and others, their numbers target is a total Army Reserve strength of 38,000 by must be kept to a sensible and manageable proportion 2020, but it is reckoned that this will give us 30,000 of the whole. No military commander I have spoken to, trained reservists. I question whether that will be achievable, serving or retired, agrees that the increase in the proportion and certainly the statistics we have heard today indicate of reservists to regulars is correct. Today’s conflicts that it probably will not be. require well trained, professional, regular troops to hit As a humble Back Bencher, I urge the Government to the ground running, so if we are to cut our armed stop dismembering our armed services before it is too services, the proportion of regulars to reservists must be late and at least ensure that plan B is in place and higher, not lower. working. Twenty thousand fully trained and experienced regulars are leaving the Army, creating what I and many other 1.41 pm campaigners and commentators would consider a yawning Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): It is a capability gap. The Government argue that they inherited privilege to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, a multibillion pound hole in the defence budget, which Madam Deputy Speaker. was unsustainable. Although I accept that premise, I do not agree with the conclusion that we should cut the I would like to associate myself with the comments of armed services to the extent that we are planning, and my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), certainly not before plan B has proved sustainable. who sadly is no longer in the Chamber. Like him, I think that the whole plan for the Army Reserve is a To me, this is all about priorities. We are happy to good one. I know a great many serving reservists in my strike a moral pose and devote many billions of pounds constituency who are excited and enthused about their to overseas aid, much of which is unaccountable, while role in a fully manned, 30,000-strong force that will starving of cash the very organisations that defend our ensure that they and others in future can make their country. I have no problem with giving money to overseas contribution to the British Army. I note with interest aid, but it should be better targeted, and I think that a that the south-west has been given an important role to statutory target is incorrect. Furthermore, projects such play in this expansion, with the equivalent of 940 new as HS2, which is very controversial, will cost billions of posts being created for the region. However, like my pounds, and, dare I say it, there is the old elephant in hon. Friend, I have some concerns about the proposals the room, the EU. Charity starts at home, especially as they stand. in austere times. It is a sobering thought that at the height of the Mr Baron: What is in no doubt is that one has great troubles in Northern Ireland we had nearly 30,500 troops respect for the TA and, in many respects, wants the serving there. In my day it took about six men to put reserve plan to work. What one is arguing here is that, one man in the field. Working on that basis, if—God given the shortfalls in recruitment and the rising costs, forbids it ever happens again—Northern Ireland flares surely it would be wise and prudent to stop the axing up, we would be pushed to meet that commitment, let of the regular battalions until we know that the reserve alone retake the Falklands if Argentina were ever in a plan is viable and cost-effective, because we in this position to launch an attack. House must not forget that defence is the first priority Ministers tell us that this reduction is of Government. “to make best use of the resources available” Sarah Newton: I thank my hon. Friend for that and to intervention. I have certainly never forgotten my personal “harness better the talents of the country”. responsibility or the fact that the defence of our nation It sounds good, but does it deliver? According to a is, collectively, our first responsibility in this Chamber, leaked document from the MOD, it does not. I would and I do not think for one moment that the Ministers be grateful if Ministers would confirm what percentage on the Front Bench have forgotten their responsibilities of GDP is spent on our armed forces. I am told that it is either. We have not yet had an opportunity to hear the now below 2%, the minimum that our membership of Minister respond to the debate or explain the current NATO demands. In my day, it was above 5% —money situation with regard to reservist recruitment. I have that was needed not only to maintain our commitment some concerns about recruitment, which is why I am to NATO, but for the defence of our dependants and of speaking in this debate. course to safeguard the realm, which is the most solemn The Green Paper published in July contained some duty of this House. proposals that concern me. One, in particular, is for the Yet today more redundancies loom and more reliance reconfiguration of D company of 6th Battalion The will be placed on reservists, who are not rallying to the Rifles. I believe that the proposal, as it stands, will MOD’s bugle call to the extent that we were led to frustrate the delivery of the Army Reserve plan in expect. Those who do respond will receive 40 training Cornwall, particularly the aim of maximising its local days a year. Will that be enough to give a reservist potential now and in years to come. D company is an confidence when his or her boots hit the ground? Will important part of 6 Rifles. It is currently based and the already overstretched training facilities be able to headquartered in Truro and Plymouth, which allows cope with the increase in demand? Will the new riflemen from across Cornwall to play a full role in the arrangements be to the reservist’s detriment? As my life of the regiment. The Green Paper proposes a 941 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 942 reconfiguration that would see the majority of the Cornwall’s population of 530,000, which is expected to company, including its headquarters, based in Plymouth grow at a fast rate in the coming decades, it seems likely by 2016 and one platoon housed at a new facility in that a Truro-based platoon would be readily able to Barnstable. recruit sufficient reservists to man it. It is currently a The move from Truro would cause real problems for well manned unit. serving riflemen living in west and central Cornwall and In conclusion, my concerns about the reorganisation impact on future recruitment from those areas. Cornwall, are very local. I support and welcome the strategy for as Members will know, is a large and rural county, and the Army Reserve, which I think is widely supported by it can take a considerable time to travel to Plymouth. A reservists in my constituency, but over 100 people have rifleman taking the train from Falmouth in my constituency contacted me to express their consternation about the to an evening training session in Plymouth would face a proposed move, including many serving riflemen in my four-hour round trip. Those travelling further west would constituency. During his time at the Ministry of Defence, face even longer journey times. Is it reasonable or, with my right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire a view to future recruitment, wise to add such an (Mr Robathan) listened closely to those concerns, met inconvenience to the many other sacrifices required of me and agreed in writing to look again at the proposed our reservists? move. He had also been planning to visit Truro to help him to understand further the impact that the move Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): I agree wholeheartedly. would have. I hope that his successor as Minister of My constituency will see the closure of Coltman house, State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh a well served TA centre in Burton. When we are trying and Wickford (Mr Francois), will be able to continue to encourage more people to join the TA, it makes that close consideration of that local concern. I hope absolutely no sense to make it more difficult for them to that will lead to the proposed reconfiguration being do so. reviewed. Such a review is simply essential if Cornish residents are to serve in The Rifles in the manner in Sarah Newton: I definitely agree with the principle of which they have proudly done for centuries and if my hon. Friend’s point. Cornwall is to continue to contribute to the British Army As well as creating a tangible difficulty for Cornish to the extent envisioned in the Army Reserve plan. riflemen, the proposed move from Truro will inflict a blow to local military identity. The link between Cornwall 1.49 pm and The Rifles dates back to 1782, when the 32nd Regiment of Foot, a predecessor unit, was designated Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): May I as Cornwall’s county regiment. That designation has wholeheartedly join in the warm welcome that has been lasted through the centuries and the reorganisations of extended to you today, Madam Deputy Speaker? It is recent years and, until now, has been physical as well as delightful to see you in the Chair. theoretical, with members of the regiment serving within It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member Cornwall. The end of 231 years of The Rifles’s boots on for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton). I echo what Cornish soil will weaken the link between county and she and other speakers have said about the size of the regiment. task that is facing Ministers with the £35 billion black I know that the Ministry of Defence recognises that hole they inherited, the need to put our armed forces on such links not only are a matter of sentiment and a sound financial and strategic footing— heritage, but have a real impact on local recruitment. The case against reconfiguration therefore rests on the Mr Kevan Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? threat to recruitment, but the argument cited in its favour is that the move from Truro will save money. Mr Clappison: I have only just started, but of course I When considering this, it is important to remember that will. Truro’s TA centre, which is currently home to D company, would stay open if The Rifles move. The centre currently Mr Jones: I think we have had black holes of £38 billion also supports local Army cadets and provides a base for and £36 billion, and now we have £35 billion. Can the the Royal Army medical field hospital and a squadron hon. Gentleman explain that, because the Government of the Royal Logistic Corp. The Green Paper would not are clearly reluctant to do so? alter those arrangements. If the move goes ahead, Truro TA centre will remain open as a facility but support Mr Clappison: The figure comes from someone who fewer reserve units. It is difficult to see how that could knows more about this than me; it is contained in the lead to significant financial savings. Indeed, the proposed National Audit Office report of 2010. I have only six establishment of a new platoon-sized facility at Barnstable minutes to speak. I will happily debate the black hole in looks likely to incur costs that would not have to be met the accounts and the whole of the debt that the previous if Truro were retained as a Rifles base. Government left to this Government, but that is not The reconfiguration does not need to be completely really why I want to take part in the debate. I wanted to abandoned in order for its adverse impact to be mitigated. do so to pay tribute to our Ministers. We have an It is generally accepted that it makes sense for the excellent Minister who has served in the armed forces company headquarters to move to Plymouth, as the and we are lucky to have him serving in this Department. nearest large urban area, but only while one platoon The longer this debate has gone on, the more it has remains in Truro to enable continued service from central become clear to me that something is going wrong with and west Cornish residents. I understand that that was the implementation of the Government’s plan. I speak the expected scenario following the talks with local on these matters as a layman. I do not have any gallant commanders in advance of the Green Paper, so the loss service of my own, but as a Conservative I take an of all Rifles units came as a dreadful shock. Given interest in our armed forces and the strength of our 943 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 944

[Mr Clappison] concluded that Britain required a fleet of 32 surface ships, destroyers and frigates, in order to fulfil its capability defence. I am not remotely qualified to judge the merits needs. Now we have a fleet of 19 surface ships in the of the plan, nor the size of the Army, although I have form of frigates and destroyers. I know that these ships some sympathy with what the hon. Member for Colchester have greater capability than ever before, but I would be (Sir Bob Russell) said about the size of our armed surprised if they had acquired a capability proportionate forces. Least of all am I qualified to judge the relative to the loss of numbers that has been experienced since capabilities and costs of reservists as against regular the defence review in the late 1990s. Even as an amateur soldiers. However, there is clearly common ground emerging strategist, I can understand that, as the noble Lord that something is going wrong with the recruitment of West, a former Sea Lord, has helpfully pointed out, a reservists. My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury ship can only be in one place at one time. I doubt that (Mr Brazier), who has played a distinguished role in this there are fewer threats in the world today than there regard, described it as “uneven”. Perhaps the Minister were in the late 1990s and that the world has become a can put me right, but it seems that initial reports are not much safer place since the turn of the last century. uniformly optimistic about the recruitment of reserves While other nations are responding to the world as it is to take the place of our regular forces. by increasing the number and capability of their surface Let me put to the Minister the case that has already fleet, we are seeing a diminution in ours. been put in a very distinguished way by my hon. Friend The hon. Member for Colchester mentioned Waterloo. the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron). If Helpfully, next Monday is Trafalgar day, which used to there is a problem with the recruitment of reservists, be celebrated nationally and is still celebrated in our and those reservists are needed to make up for the Navy. I was interested to find out how many warships capability lost through the loss of the five regular the British Navy had at the time of the battle of Trafalgar, battalions, surely the Government should look again at and my rather amateur research unearthed a figure of the question of disbanding those battalions. 950 warships in 1805, so we may not have had a very big Army, as the hon. Gentleman said, but we certainly had Mr Gray rose— a very good Navy.

Mr Clappison: I give way to my hon. Friend, who is Richard Drax: Bearing in mind that 85% of our trade much more distinguished in these matters than I am. comes by sea, would it not be foolish if we did not have the Royal Navy to protect, not least, our trade routes? Mr Gray: I am not even slightly distinguished. I very My hon. Friend may recall that one man tried to cut us much agree with my hon. Friend about the risk of there off before, not too long ago. being a capability gap. Does he agree that, while the MOD may well hope that the TA recruitment figures will improve, there must arrive a point at which it will Mr Clappison: My hon. Friend is right. Who knows become obvious that that is not going to occur? We what we may be called on to deal with through our might therefore want to hear from the Minister a date Royal Navy? At the time of the Falklands conflict we or a time at which the MOD might be ready to admit had 60 frigates and destroyers. Recently our Navy played that the bold plan in “Future Army 2020” has not a very important role in the conflict in Libya. Four of worked and will think again about regular units. the ships that we used in that conflict have since been decommissioned or are on their way to being Mr Clappison: I hope that the Minister has heard my decommissioned. Let me put this into further context hon. Friend. If I may, I would put it even more strongly. by saying that, on the eve of the second world war, a My hon. Friend mentioned hope. I would say to the conflict that tells us all we need to know about the need Minister that, if there is even an element of doubt about for military preparedness, Britain had 272 surface warships the recruitment of reservists, the Government should and the largest Navy in the world. put these plans on hold and look again at the whole question of disbanding the regular battalions. In saying Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): On that, let me make it absolutely clear that I mean no ships of the past, the cannonballs only went so far; disrespect at all to the excellent individuals who serve in today, the force multipliers on ships are enormous. The our Territorial Army and to whom we owe the deepest situation is not comparable. We have fewer forces and debt of gratitude, not least for the way in which they fewer castles. Things have moved on in our capabilities, have performed in Afghanistan. and that is what we need to focus on. This is simply a question of whether the implementation of the plans as they stand will give us the capability that Mr Clappison: I hope that the ships have very great we require. I very much hope that it will not be part of capabilities because we have only 19 of them. I think the Government’s thinking or policy to say, “Here we that my hon. Friend will know from his military expertise have a plan which should meet our capability needs, and that it is said in the Navy that three ships are needed for will also save us costs, but even if it doesn’t meet our every one that is deployed, so at any time we can deploy capability needs we will go ahead with it none the less.” six ships. Let us hope that they are indeed mightily That is not a position in which a Conservative-led powerful. As I said, other nations are not taking the Government should find themselves, and I am sure that same view as us and are increasing the size of their they will not under the watchful custodianship of my navies. I am pretty sure that some of those navies will right hon. Friend the Minister. have very good capabilities as well. Let me say a few words about our Navy, which is also Although our surface fleet may now be on the rather encompassed by the defence reforms. The previous modest side, happily we are not short of commanding Government’s strategic defence review in the late 1990s officers, because in our Navy we have 40 admirals and 945 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 946

260 captains. That is a ratio of just over two admirals Sir Alan Beith: The same logic can indeed be applied, per surface warship. If one takes into account our but the sheer strength of feeling with regard to the submarine force and HMS Illustrious, which is due to Royal Regiment of Fusiliers is significant, as is the be decommissioned next year, we will have one and a number of Members who are taking part in this debate half admirals per vessel in our Navy. At least we can see because of their concern about the future of the that all possibilities will be well and truly covered. As 2nd Battalion and of the regiment in general. for the 260 captains, one is tempted to guess that, I do not want to spend too long on why the mistake although in the past the dream of a captain may have was made, but it is clear that in the case of the 2nd been to command a ship, today his dream may be to set Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers the decision foot on one. to stand down was based not on efficiency, but on the We do not have to look far back in time to find cap badge argument, which preserved Scottish battalions occasions when we have needed our Navy at short that did not recruit as well as the Fusiliers. Interestingly, notice, and who knows when we may need it again? It is the cap badge argument did not count for much when, an excellent branch of our armed forces, as is the case a few years earlier, we lost the King’s Own Scottish with all our armed forces. Whatever we say about the Borderers—the other regiment that had its regimental size and capabilities of our armed forces, we know the headquarters in my constituency—and they were merged quality of the people who are involved in them. They with the Royal Scots to become one battalion of the are excellent individuals who never hesitate to serve Royal Regiment of Scotland. In effect, the two regiments their country and put their lives at risk, and we are very associated with our area have sustained losses. lucky to have each and every one of them. Since the decision was made—Ministers may claim it I say to the Minister that it is a credit to the Government was right, but I think it was wrong—the facts have that they have made it such an explicit priority to give changed, and when the facts change, Governments have our forces the equipment they deserve. However, on the to look at things again. It has become clear how difficult reserves, as a straightforward, ordinary Conservative it will be to meet the TA recruitment target. I do not Back Bencher, I think that the Government need to know many people—indeed, anyone—who are confident think again. that we will achieve the targets in the given time scale. It is therefore likely—in fact, I am certain—that there will 1.59 pm be a capability gap. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): It is a pleasure to be the first Liberal Democrat Member to Mr Brazier: The reason we are not meeting the targets welcome you to the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, is not that there is a shortage of people willing to enlist. and to wish you well. Of course, my hon. Friend the As I explained in my speech, we have had two big Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) welcomed you surges, but both were wrecked because the Department when you were waiting in the wings and I am sure he in charge of recruiting and enlistment has set up systems shares my view that your eye should never stray far that are simply not volunteer-reservist friendly. from the Liberal Democrat Benches. The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers has a huge, historic Sir Alan Beith: My hon. Friend, who has worked association with my constituency. The regimental diligently on strengthening the TA and its role in our headquarters of the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers military structure, makes an important point. I am not was in Alnwick and its museum is still there. The sure whether that is the whole answer or argument. If regiment also has a major Fusilier Territorial Army we are deterring potential recruits as a result of slow centre and the benefit of very good recruitment areas, processes, that should be put right. Many years ago my which is why it is such a well-recruited battalion. The hon. Friend was my Conservative opponent and he north-east, Lancashire, the midlands and London could became aware during that time of the significance of hardly be better places for recruitment. the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in my area. The defence plans, which have been widely discussed As well as the slowness of TA recruitment, TA centres today, involve a significant and risky reduction in regular are being closed. Alnwick in my constituency is keeping numbers and are dependent on a massive increase in a good and strong TA centre of the Royal Regiment of reservists on a scale unprecedented in modern times. Fusiliers. The TA centre in Berwick was reassigned Two things follow from that. First, we need to make some time ago to the Royal Logistics Corps, which no sure that we achieve regular recruitment at the necessary longer needs it. I think we should have kept it and that it level, organised in a regimental structure that supports should be reassigned back to the Royal Regiment of efficiency of operation. Secondly, we need to make sure Fusiliers. that we do not take out regular strength until we can be If we give up on rural areas and create a situation sure that we have the reservists to replace it. whereby it is too far for people from rural areas to That brings me directly to the mistake that I think attend training nights, we will cut off a significant has been made, namely the disbandment of the 2nd source of recruitment. There are many loyal people in Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. On Tuesday, rural areas who want to serve and many ex-regulars hundreds of Fusilier veterans marched on Whitehall—it return to rural areas. At the very least, we need to devise was a truly magnificent sight—after we had presented a ways in which the training structure can accommodate petition to Downing street. people who live 30, 40 or 50 miles away from a training Bob Stewart: Based on the logic that we should keep centre, if we are not simply to write off a whole area of regulars until we have reservists to take their place, we recruitment. should mention in the same breath the other three I do not want to take up much more time. It is clear regiments that are being lost, including mine, the Mercian from today’s discussion that a lot of people, for various Regiment. reasons, have serious concerns about our ability to meet 947 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 948

[Sir Alan Beith] than 20 recruits per parliamentary constituency, although I do appreciate the point that has been made about the the TA targets. I therefore suggest to Ministers that the fact that the Army Reserve is becoming slightly more contingency plan they should have to hand and keep in regional than local. preparedness is the retention of at least one of the regular Employers will play an essential role in this process. It battalions, and the obvious choice is the 2nd Battalion is really important that the National Employer Advisory the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. Board and Support for Britain’s Reservists & Employers do their job well and properly. I also want chambers 2.5 pm of commerce, the Federation of Small Businesses, the CBI and the Institute of Directors—all the employers’ Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): It is groups—to get behind the need to recruit and retain a pleasure to speak in your first debate in the Chair, more reserves. Madam Deputy Speaker. When I first joined the Honourable Artillery Company I speak as a former Territorial Army soldier, first in as a young man, I was working in the Lloyd’s of the Honourable Artillery Company and then in the London insurance market, which had a reserve forces Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. I served for about 12 years association. Many young underwriters and brokers joined in total. A great-great uncle of mine lost his life as a the reserve forces. There was significant employer buy-in. member of the 25th Battalion the Royal Fusiliers during We could talk about our weekend’s training when we the German east African campaign of the first world got back on Monday morning. It was a normal and war. natural thing to do. There is no reason why clusters of My understanding of the objective that the Government employers could not copy that model. have set for the reserve forces and the Army Reserve in particular is that they need to capture 0.15% of the Jack Lopresti: My hon. Friend is talking about a working-age population. I do not think that that target large organisation. Small and medium-sized enterprises is beyond us, because many of our closest allies, such as and small towns and villages cannot be compared with America, Canada, New Zealand and Ireland, all manage Lloyd’s of London. to achieve significantly better than that. If our neighbouring countries and closest allies can achieve that, we should Andrew Selous: I accept that, but there is no reason have faith in the volunteer ethic in British society. It is why the chamber of commerce in my hon. Friend’s also important to remember that we will still have a constituency or the Federation of Small Businesses larger proportion of regular forces in our total military could not do the same thing. I would like to see stalls on than many of our closest allies. the high streets, in the market towns and at the village fairs in his constituency. We should literally be setting Mr Gray: Will my hon. Friend give way? out our stall to get young men and women to join the reserve forces. Groups of employers could do the same Andrew Selous: I give way to my hon. Friend, who, thing. like me, is a former HAC soldier. To highlight one employer, Carillion is doing an excellent job of encouraging its staff to join the reserve Mr Gray: I am most grateful to my Honourable forces because it is a two-way trade. Not only does the Artillery Company colleague. It is the oldest and, of country get the reserve forces that it needs, but employers course, greatest regiment, regular or territorial, in the get back a capable, determined and well-trained employee British Army. who will be of even more benefit to their work force. It is important to recognise that this is not just about Mr Ellwood: Division! employers doing the decent thing; there are sound business reasons for employers to get behind the reserves. The Mr Gray: No dissent from other Members, please. Government also provide assistance to meet mobilisation I agree with the optimism and hope of my hon. costs. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew It is important to recognise the contribution that the Selous) that we can recruit a first-class reserve army to Territorial Army, as it used to be called, has made to play the role called for by Army 2020. However, does he recent campaigns. Up to 10% of our forces in Afghanistan agree that the statistics so far are extremely disappointing have come from the Territorial Army. Indeed, my hon. to say the least? Does he think we will reach a point and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob during the next year or two when it will become obvious Stewart) mentioned the figure of 14% for Iraq in our that we will not be able to achieve the Army 2020 targets debate on 23 April. and we will have to think again? We need a simple and straightforward recruiting system. My memory of joining the Territorial Army in 1980 is Andrew Selous: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that it was a quick and easy process. Captain Simon his point. I have one or two positive suggestions on how Lalor, who is now a major-general, was the recruiting we might be able to improve recruitment, based on what officer of the Honourable Artillery Company. I had has worked in the past. I also have every confidence that friends in the company and I went in to see him. The our colleagues on the Front Bench want and need this process was very quick and I was doing my recruit basic to work. They are not stupid and I am sure they will training before I knew it. There was not a long delay, make the necessary adjustments, if needed. but I am sure that the necessary security checks were At present there are 19,000 people in the Army undertaken then, as they must be now. If we were able Reserve and the Government want 30,000, an increase to do it quickly, simply and easily then, I am sure that of 11,000. To put that in round terms, that will be fewer we can do so now. That is important because if a young 949 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 950 man or woman who is bursting with energy and commitment River Buffalo in South Africa and died saving the wants to join the TA, we have to act quickly to capture colours. Essentially, the colours were the regiment. That that enthusiasm or we may lose them. gave great character to each regiment. I return to the point that I made about the need for I did not understand how much that tradition mattered community engagement. It is important that businesses, until I went to Londonderry later that year. When I lost civic leaders, Members of Parliament, mayors, county a third of my platoon, I saw why regiments were so council and unitary council chairs and so on get behind important. My men went back into the regimental this effort, support the reserve forces and encourage system and said, “We’ve got to do the right thing.” people to join their local unit. I think that an extra Twelve years later, I saw that pride in action again when 11,000 reserves is possible. I have heard about the I lost six men at Ballykelly on 6 December 1982. When I difficulties with the current recruitment process that buried six of my soldiers, four of their mothers put their have been outlined, but I still believe that recruiting arms around me and said, “We understand how you 11,000 reserves is possible. feel.” That was amazing. That is why the regimental system is so important to Government and Opposition Mr Brazier: My hon. Friend is making a powerful Members. The regiment is a family and it acts like that. case. The central difference between the recruitment It gives the Army huge strength in adversity. That is why processes in this country and other English-speaking it is so important and why we must preserve it. countries is that reservists here have very little say over On Monday, I hosted a visit to this place for 15 soldiers the way in which it is designed, organised and implemented. and officers from my old regiment. I reminisced fondly Andrew Selous: I defer to no one in this House more about my time in the regiment. They tolerated an old than my hon. Friend for their knowledge of and man’s yearnings. However, when I looked at them, I commitment to the reserves. He has advised the House could see that they were not with me. They had a well and loyally over the past few years. There are two different view. They were not the Cheshires that I had Defence Ministers on the Front Bench and I am sure been in; they were another lot. Since 1 September 2007, that they will have heard his comments. I know that they had been in 1st Battalion the Mercian Regiment they want to get the process right and that they will and they were no longer the Cheshires. They had a new leave no stone unturned in ensuring that we achieve the regimental identity that had been bonded in battle on target. two severe tours in Afghanistan. I realised that the way We need community buy-in. We need employers and that I looked at things was all over and that a new civic leaders to be out there supporting our reserves. We generation was coming. I do not like it, but I have to need an extra 11,000 reserves. We have done it in the accept it. Fundamentally, there are some things that we past. In 1990, we had 70,000 people in the Territorial must accept. Army. Surely it is possible for us to get to a figure of I do not want 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of 30,000. I refuse to believe that we cannot do that if we Fusiliers or any other regiment to go. I do not think that have the right enthusiasm, motivation and recruiting the reserves are getting the recruitment that is needed. systems. Old regiments do not die; they fade away, just as those that made them go to their makers. Those of us who 2.14 pm have served and have seen our comrades in action have great difficulty in accepting change—I do not like it, Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): It is a great pleasure and I will fight tooth and nail to keep the Royal Regiment to see you in your new position, Madam Deputy Speaker. of Fusiliers, and the other battalions. Sometimes, however, I will talk about why the regimental system is so we will have to accept that we cannot do that. That is emotive for so many people in this House. I was in the why people such as me, and other hon. and gallant Army, but I really wanted to join the Royal Air Force Members from across the House, are fighting so hard because my father was an RAF officer. However, he for their local battalions and regiments. rather ruined it for me when I discovered that I was I have 16 seconds left, so let me say this: please do not colour blind. I said, “Dad, that means I can’t fly and I confuse regiments and battalions. A regiment consists can’t join the RAF.” He said, “That’s right son.” I said, of many battalions, and many of those battalions are “What about the Navy, dad?” He said, “Starboard and from previous regiments. My time is up. Think of port are red and green. You’ve got to be able to see those.” previous battalions. So I said, “What about the Army?” He said, “Son, the Army will have anyone.” 2.20 pm When I got to Sandhurst, I discovered that the Army Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): It is a great was not just the Army, but that I had to go in for a honour to follow my hon. Friend the Member for regiment. I did not really understand that. I lived in Beckenham (Bob Stewart) who has given distinguished Cheshire and went to school in Essex—I was an Essex service. I never rose higher than a most diffident and boy. I ended up being interviewed for the Cheshire incompetent trooper in the Honourable Artillery Company, Regiment. It was weird. I did not really understand so I speak with some diffidence in this debate. I may be what the regimental system was until I got to the an amateur in military strategy, but I know a bit about regiment in Bahrain on 25 July 1969. When I arrived, parliamentary procedure, and I am concerned about the I was suddenly taken into this very proud organisation. way that debates on our armed services are effectively I discovered that the Cheshires had real ethos and spirit. being downgraded. The House is on a one-line Whip, I was taught regimental history very rapidly. I was and we are debating a motion that we have not heard a taught that the colours were the heart of the regiment lot about. The motion and that they were carried by subalterns. Everybody in “urges the Government to delay the disbandment of regular units the Chamber will remember the story of the two young until it is established that the Army Reserve plan is viable and officers who were given the colours in 1879 to cross the cost-effective.” 951 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 952

[Sir Edward Leigh] Sir Edward Leigh: We all hope that that is true and will happen, but the fact is that we are still faced with My hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay what appears to be a crisis in recruitment. My hon. (Mr Baron), who is sitting next to me, will press the Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay has motion to a vote, so it will—I presume—be passed by ensured that two national papers gave enormous the House. It is incumbent on the Government to listen prominence to this subject this very day. There is a to the House if it expresses an opinion in such terms. leaked report in The Daily Telegraph—perhaps the Minister will not want to comment on that—but we do not need Mr Ellwood: On that point, I stress that this is a a leaked report to know that the recruiting drive is in serious motion, but the House needs to reflect on how trouble. According to The Daily Telegraph we pay tribute to our armed forces. I do not believe that “only 50 per cent of the overall 2013-14 target of 6,383” a half-day debate on a Thursday is the way to do that. We previously had four debates a year on the issue. I has been met. Clearly, something is going wrong. hope that the powers that be will listen—I hope my hon. Why have we closed recruiting services and placed the Friend will agree—and that we can return to that and emphasis on Capita? I have some experience of dealing do justice to what our armed forces are doing for this with Capita from the Public Accounts Committee. Is country. that really the right, hands-on way to recruit our Territorial Army and reserve forces? The Army is reducing the Sir Edward Leigh: I agree with my hon. Friend. When Regular Army by 19,500 personnel, and working to I arrived in the House we had an annual Navy debate, increase the Army reserve to 30,000 from a current which was the only debate in which Mr Bonner Pink—a trained strength of 19,000. That is fair enough. It has great man who represented Portsmouth—spoke in the been said in the debate that we need to recruit 20 people course of an entire year, so important was it. We greatly per constituency, so why are we not doing so? We must respect my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, but get a grip on the issue and understand from the Minister we would like the Secretary of State to be present on exactly what is happening on the ground. Why are we these occasions and in these most important debates. cutting people who have done their jobs well and who would like to continue in the Regular Army in the hope We are, of course, sympathetic to Defence Ministers, of promotion and a career? Why are we cutting them and we know the intolerable pressure they have been and recruiting reservists when we are still not meeting put under. I will not get into a debate about the £35 billion our quotas? black hole, just in case the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) intervenes on me, but as we know, Many colleagues, as well as other commentators, the money has to come from nowhere—or rather, from have been just as suspicious of the MOD’s ability to somewhere—and difficult decisions must be made. I recruit and train so many recruits in such a short time hope that was not a Freudian slip, Madam Deputy span, and the more the debate continues, the more some Speaker, and by the way, welcome to the Chair. Thank of us worry about that. How many regulars will sign up you for calling me; you are doing wonderfully well so as reservists? They entered as career soldiers and many far. may feel betrayed at being forcibly deprived of their We all know the pressure that those on the Front jobs. Will they be keen to join as reservists? What Benches are under, but that does not absolve them from preparations have the Government made for the loss of answering the central question in this debate. We can those skills and experience? The redundancy notices argue about the relative costs of reservists compared that the soldiers have received are real and can be held with regular forces, but we cannot deny that the previous in their hands; the reservists who are meant to replace Secretary of State made a pledge to the Chair of the those soldiers are merely theoretical. Defence Committee that we would not reduce the Regular My hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay Army unless we were sure we could recruit these reservists. pointed out that the plans are “flawed” and present a That is the nub of this debate, and we must not get lost “high risk”. A think-tank suggests that current defence in the detail. We must keep our eyes firmly focused on policy is the issue. “merely a mechanism to slash defence spending.” My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) has played a distinguished part in this debate, and his I do not accuse Ministers of that, but they must reply to independent commission concluded: the charge. Is the policy a mechanism to reduce defence spending, or does it hold up? Even the Liberal Democrats, “Our Reserve Forces are in Decline.” our coalition partners, have expressed concern that the Why are they in decline? The commission concluded: changes envisaged “We have failed to modernise Reservist Roles.” “have not been adequately thought through and could pose We must ask my hon. Friend, and the Minister, whether risks.” we can increase the burdens we place on reservists when In conclusion, I believe history has shown that a we are still modernising their role. The 2013 MOD standing Army adds tremendous value to Great Britain. White Paper “Reserves in the Future Force 2020: Valuable During the first and second world wars, it was immensely and Valued” was produced in response. easier to mobilise the male population, because we could add them to pre-existing units. It was both easier Mr Brazier: The central point was that for the past and wiser to add another battalion—or two or three—to few years reserves have been used exclusively as a part-time an existing regiment, than to imagine an entire reserve personnel service with no command opportunities for force almost ex nihilo. These regiments have long and officers whatever. That has now changed, and as a result proud histories that have come under sustained attack we have a decent proposition. over the past half century. 953 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 954

Richard Drax: Will my hon. Friend give way? Mr Ellwood: It depends which frigates we are talking about. It will be rare for us to participate in a conflict Sir Edward Leigh: I cannot. I will keep going for the without an international flotilla, so we need to think last few seconds of my time. about frigates other than our own. I want to focus on Obviously, not every regiment can last for ever, but Britain’s military capability, which goes far beyond providing tradition is a priceless, incorporeal thing that takes the senior service with a replacement for the Invincible centuries to build and yet can be destroyed in an instant. class and thinking of carriers in terms of the battle of We must again remember Admiral Cunningham, who Medway and so forth. was criticised for the heavy losses his Navy ships suffered We either need carriers or we do not. If we need the when they were exposed to German air assault as he capability, we need a minimum of two carriers to guarantee protected the Army. He said: that one is permanently operational. Let us bear in “It takes three years to build a ship, but it takes three centuries mind what happened in the operation in Libya. Halfway to build a tradition.” through the operation, the Charles de Gaulle had to The tradition of our Regular Army is a real thing that head back to France for a refit. Previously, 40% of air we still have in this country. The reforms seek to replace operations had come from it. Let us also bear in mind that with a continental-style citizen army, and to do so our experiences in Afghanistan and Iraq, which highlight stealthily without properly saying so. It may take only the need for a new and adaptable, but arm’s length, 40 days of a year to train a reservist, but we may lose doctrine of intervention, with the flexibility for upstream centuries of tradition if the reforms are implemented in engagement and stabilisation, including humanitarian the wrong way. tasks, based on a much lighter footprint. The carriers could become the centrepiece of British expeditionary capability. 2.29 pm The Queen Elizabeth class carriers provide an Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): It is a opportunity to facilitate a step-change in long-range pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for manoeuvrable technology and capability, and allow us Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh). I welcome you to to recalibrate our joint-service approach to littoral, your place, Madam Deputy Speaker, as other hon. expeditionary and inland conflict prevention and upstream Members have done. I hope that my voting for you will engagement. In a wider context, strategic carriers allow not in any way affect the frequency with which I am able us to extend and embolden Britain’s diplomatic soft to catch your eye, although I live in hope. I hope hon. power and hard power in a manner not seen for a Members join me in welcoming the new the Under- generation, for the reason my hon. Friend the Member Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the for Hertsmere has given. In my view, we are not reaching Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), who has the carriers’ potential. responsibility for veterans. I am pleased to see her in her place. Mr Brazier: Will my hon. Friend confirm that there is I am grateful for the debate. I should declare that I no way we can fund that objective, which I strongly am proud member of the TA, which is soon to be called support, if we have an all-regular Army? the reserves. I congratulate the Government on hosting the next NATO summit next year. The debate is on Mr Ellwood: I will come to funding in a second. defence reforms and is about the capabilities to meet In my view, the full potential of the carriers needs to future threats and commitments. I wish to focus my be exploited. For example, we are not considering having remarks on one aspect of defence capability, the significance unmanned aerial systems on board, but that will become of which is not, in my view, fully appreciated by the the norm in future. Drone systems like the ScanEagle, House, namely the utilisation of our Queen Elizabeth the Fire Scout and the X47-B are already available and class carriers. exist on other carriers, yet we do not have a programme We tend to obsess about platforms, ships and aircraft, to consider them, even though our ships will be around but not what they are expected to do. My hon. Friend for the next 40 years. On capability, it is worth noting the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) fell into that two thirds of airborne operations conducted over that. The 24 lb guns used in the battle of Trafalgar are Afghanistan by the Americans took place from aircraft different from the assets we have today. carriers based in the Indian ocean. We need to recognise that those are versatile bits of kit. Mr Clappison: My hon. Friend knows far more about Rotary systems have been mentioned. The Apache these matters than I do, but may I gently draw his played a pivotal and interesting but new role in Libya, attention to the fact that we will not have the splendid with the use of Hellfire missiles, extending the range at Queen Elizabeth carriers until 2020? In the meantime, which we can use our force capability. Hellfire has a our only helicopter carrier is being taken for what is range of 8 km, the Storm Shadow 500 km, and Brimstone called recycling next year. 12 km. I stress these points because two thirds of the world population lives within 250 miles of the coastline. Mr Ellwood: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s That is where future conflict will take place. If we do intervention. I did not want to focus on legacy issues not want to put boots on the ground, it is aircraft and procurement—all hon. Members are well aware of carriers that will allow us to conduct and expedite such them, and there are questions to be answered on both operations. sides of the House. Continuing to operate two carriers will send a powerful message to potential adversaries, both state and non-state, Sir Edward Leigh: And the carriers must be protected but also to our allies, such as the US, allowing us in turn by frigates. to employ greater leverage on their decision making. It 955 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 956

[Mr Ellwood] Christopher Pincher: In that, as in most cases, the Government are very wise. will also save millions of pounds because we would not I am pleased to be able to speak in the debate. I shall have to create forward bases or undertake long-range ask three brief questions. The first question, to the operations. In the operations in Libya, Tornados had to House, is this: do we need to restructure our armed be refuelled five times—three times on the way there forces? We had not had a review for many years. Given and two on the way back, putting massive strain on the the military deficit that the Labour Government left the airframes. Operating two carriers will give us greater current one, if Labour were still in power—heaven flexibility compared with running just one. With one forefend—it would have had to have one. carrier, operations are likely to be carrier-strike only—there would be little expeditionary capability. The second question is whether we need to rebalance the armed forces in favour of the reserves. Broadly Hon. Members have spoken passionately about retaining speaking, that is the right thing to do. I disagree with the soldiers who live in their constituencies. My question my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay is this: what are the soldiers expected to do? Huge work because in this post-cold war asymmetrical world he needs to be done on expeditionary capability, upstream referred to, it is not appropriate to have an overwhelming engagement and stabilisation. We could win the war number of regular forces. It is more appropriate to have quickly, but lose the peace because we do not have such a flexible reserve-based force. Our allies are doing that. stabilisation. Aircraft carriers can play an important In 1990, our Territorial Army was more than twice the role in that. Two aircraft carriers could have a tailored size than the proposed Reserve Army, so I do not think expeditionary capability that we have never had. that having approximately 30,000 reservists out of a Other nations are watching us with interest. The total of 120,000 in our armed forces is inappropriate. Americans have the Wasp class carriers, which are There have been many reforms and there has been 44,000 tonnes, and the Nimitz class carriers, which, opposition to them. There was opposition to “Options because of sequestration, are likely to be removed. They for Change” a generation ago, and to the Keith Speed are looking at the 65,000 tonne class with interest, and reforms in 1980. There was opposition to the changes in also saw what we did with the Apache. They may want 1959, and I am sure there was opposition to Edward to follow suit. We do not talk this up. Building a third Cardwell’s reforms in 1872. The question is not so much aircraft carrier is not even being considered because whether reform is wrong, but whether the Ministry of of the embarrassment and the legacy problems of the Defence has got this reform right. Broadly speaking, I past. think it has. The question we are asking ourselves is can I believe that the additional annualised cost of a we recruit enough people into the reserve to match the carrier, which has been mentioned—about £65 million a draw-down of our regular forces at a time of falling year—is a small price to pay for the diplomatic signal joblessness and increased career alternatives for young and military statement of intent it would send to potential people? The answer is yes, if we get it right. adversaries, state and non-state alike. It would significantly reduce the operational cost of war fighting, conflict Bob Stewart: The regiments will have gone by 2015, prevention and peacekeeping roles. It would also elevate and on any optimistic assumption the reservist plan will Britain’s ranking as Europe’s senior military power, not be complete until 2018. There is a three-year gap. justifying our permanent membership of the UN Security Council. I hope that hon. Members on both sides Christopher Pincher: Gap planning is the trial and the House support my call for operating two aircraft tribulation of any organisation. Businesses all around carriers. the country have to deal with gap planning, particularly when people who are in the reserves need to go on 2.37 pm deployment or training. The issue for many such firms—I Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): I welcome used to be involved in an organisation that had a lot of you to the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. The great reservists going on deployment—is not so much planning challenge speaking before the two Front Benchers is for 40 days away, because that is something that can, to that just about everything that can be said has been a greater or lesser extent, be planned for; the challenge said. I shall try not to let that stop me. is ensuring that there is somebody to step temporarily I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for into the reservist’s role, that the handover is done effectively, Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) on his speech and his the person is able to discharge their other responsibilities two-carrier Royal United Services Institute policy, which while stepping into that role, and, when the reservist I am working my way through. I also congratulate my returns, that the handover back is smooth. Making sure hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay that those sorts of challenges are dealt with is one way (Mr Baron) on his tenacious campaign. He has fought for companies big and small to be confident about with great integrity and spoke today with great clarity. recruiting and retaining reservists. That is particularly important for firms whose bread and butter is deploying Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I regret their resources at their clients’ sites. They have to consider that an investigation being carried out by the Intelligence what their clients might think of their staff leaving and and Security Committee has prevented my taking part coming back for periods of time. in the debate. My hon. Friend has referred to the The key message for the Minister, who is knowledgeable two-carrier solution. Does he agree that the only reason about these matters and is committed to our armed we can consider that solution is the Government’s wise forces, is to ensure that big and small businesses recognise decision to have the short take-off and vertical landing the advantages of having reservists on their books. joint strike fighter on the carriers? Otherwise, there was Most firms put great store in training and skill capability. no way we could operate two carriers. They need to know that the MOD, the Army, the 957 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 958

Air Force and the Navy will train the reservists on their It is time for the Government to be honest with our books, giving them the skills that their firms want, need servicemen and servicewomen and say why they are and can use. As my hon. Friend the Member for South making these cuts. The real reason is that in the SDSR, West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) said in a very good the Government reduced the defence budget by 9% and speech, it is incumbent on the MOD to work with the have made some silly mistakes since. Federation of Small Businesses, the CBI and local The hon. Member for Bournemouth East spoke chambers of commerce to ensure that businesses know eloquently about the need for the carriers, but he was the value of the training that reservists will receive, so the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Defence they are more likely to want to recruit and retain them. Secretary who not only recommended changing the If we do that, we can move further and faster towards “cats and traps”, which wasted £74 million, but wanted the objective the Minister hopes to achieve, and this to mothball one of those carriers. change in the deployment of our resources will be successful. Mr Ellwood: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 2.44 pm Mr Jones: I am sorry, but I do not have much time. Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee and the hon. Member There is clearly a recruitment crisis, but as is often the for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on securing the case, the Government are implementing a policy without debate, which has been excellent. There have been 16 thinking it through. That might be okay with things speakers. I have done a quick tally and I think we have such as the green deal, but it is not acceptable when the had 10 blue on blue attacks and two yellow on blue defence of our country is at stake. From the recruitment attacks so far. It has been good to recognise the importance figures, it is clear that there is a crisis. The hon. Member of our armed forces and the unique role that reservists for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) mentioned the drop in play. I have seen our reservists in action in Iraq and recruitment in one unit. I have got to say, having spoken Afghanistan, and I think everyone in the House would to people, mistakes have been made, and I do not like to thank them for their contribution to the defence believe it is all Capita’s fault; the decision, which rests with Ministers, to take Army recruiters out of centres of our country. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] has been a mistake, and as has been recognised, they My hon. Friends the Members for Coventry South will have to backfill them. That needs addressing. (Mr Cunningham), for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) and for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), the hon. Members Another issue clearly needs addressing. Whether we for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and for Hertsmere like it or not, the general impression created by the (Mr Clappison), and the right hon. Member for Berwick- Government is that the armed forces are not open for upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) raised the issue of the business. They can spend as much time and money as fusiliers. The Minister needs to answer why the Government they like on glossy adverts, but if they are handing out have decided to axe the fusiliers in spite of the their P45s, giving the impression that people are not required good recruitment record. in our armed forces, it is not surprising that people are The current situation needs to be put into context not joining the regulars or the reserves. and I know that some hon. Members have short memories. There are some concerns over the leak in The Daily It is important to recognise that, at the time of the Telegraph this morning, one of which relates to mental strategic defence and security review, the Prime Minister health. Next week, we will table amendments to the said: Defence Reform Bill raising issues that need to be “Our ground forces will continue to have a vital operational addressed as part of the long-term mental health care role, so we will retain a large, well-equipped Army, numbering of reservists. To be fair to the Government, however, around 95,500 by 2015—7,000 fewer than today.”—[Official Report, they have carried on and improved some of the things 19 October 2010; Vol. 516, c. 799.] we did on mental health care for regulars. We all know the reduction was increased to 13,000 and When he was Defence Secretary, the right hon. Member that compulsory redundancies have taken place. There for North Somerset (Dr Fox), rightly committed to is concern among many that the increase in the reserve getting the balance right. He said he would not reduce is not for operational purposes, but to fill the gap. the level of the regulars until the reforms to the reservists We have heard that the reason for the gap is the had been carried out, which I think was a sensible, well previous Labour Government’s black hole in the finances— intentioned proposition and the right approach, but the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) now that things are going wrong, why are the Government tried to support that notion. We have heard about a steaming ahead? This is a serious issue. It is not just that £35 billion black hole, a £36 billion black hole and a the policy is failing. It is not good enough to say that £38 billion black hole. The fact is that a 2006 National this is not about the wider issue of finance and support Audit Office report said that the gap in the defence for our armed forces. Unless Ministers change tack budget, if it continued in line with inflation, would be now, in the not-too-distant future, the defence capability £6 billion and would only go up to £36 billion if there of this country could be at dire risk. were flat growth over a 10-year period. [Interruption.] The Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), will learn to 2.51 pm listen in time. The Government have used that to hide The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark behind their reason for making cuts to defence spending. Francois): As this is a debate on the armed forces, I wish Mr Ellwood Will the hon. Gentleman give way? to endorse the tribute paid earlier by the Secretary of State for International Development to Lance Corporal Mr Jones: I will not give way. Unfortunately, I do not James Brynin of the Intelligence Corps, serving with have much time. 14th Signal Regiment, who was tragically killed in 959 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 960

[Mr Mark Francois] Reservists have made a significant contribution to recent operations in Iraq and Afghanistan as well, with action in Afghanistan on 15 October. He died in the in excess of 25,000 mobilised for tours on Operations service of his country, defending our freedoms, and I Telic and Herrick. Just as we were told earlier that the suspect I speak for the whole House when I say that our United States National Guard takes its responsibilities thoughts are with his family and loved ones as they seriously and is taken seriously, I would respectfully come to terms with their grievous loss. suggest that our 25,000 men and women who served in On a less sombre note, I say to my hon. Friend the those theatres were taking their responsibilities pretty Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), who mentioned seriously as well. Between them, those reservists have Trafalgar, that according to the Naval Historical Branch, gained more than 70 gallantry awards in those campaigns. a Jean Francois served at Trafalgar, although I am I would also humbly remind the House that 24 reservists relievedtosayitwasintheRoyalNavy. made the ultimate sacrifice in combat during those operations. Sir Bob Russell: Which side? We are establishing greater links with the national health service to enhance our medical units. Many of Mr Francois: In the Royal Navy. That’s our side, Bob. the lessons learned in combat, including at Camp Bastion— I also say to my hon. Friend the Member for for instance, in treating haemorrhaging and bleeding—have Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) that I have not read now been fed back into the NHS. We are also setting up his paper on carriers, which I think was published by a new cyber-reserve unit—although I can scotch the the Royal United Services Institute, but having heard rumour this afternoon that it has anything to do with his speech today, I promise him that I will. attacking 38 Degrees. It is true that reserves can in some I am glad to have the opportunity to respond for the cases be more expensive than regular forces when deployed Government in this important debate, and I would like on operations, but they are significantly cheaper when to remind the House why we are making these changes. held as a contingency. On 3 July, we published the White Paper, “Reserves in the Future Force 2020: Valuable and Valued”, setting out our vision for the reserve forces and the detail of Sarah Newton: I appreciate that my right hon. Friend how we would make reserve service more attractive. It sat and listened through the whole debate, but may I ask also confirmed our intention to change the name of the for confirmation that he will carefully consider the Territorial Army to the Army Reserve to better reflect points I made about reservists being able to serve in the their future role. Army in Cornwall? With this new approach, the UK is not breaking entirely new ground. In fact, as my hon. Friend the Mr Francois: Yes, I understand that my predecessor Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), who arguably gave my hon. Friend a commitment that he would look knows more about the reserves than the rest of the at that issue closely. I will honour that commitment and House put together, pointed out, it will bring us into look at it too. I cannot prejudice the outcome, but I line with our principal allies and partners, who currently promise my hon. Friend that I will look at it. rely more heavily on reserves than we do. Currently, Central to the White Paper was the improved offer to reserves represent about 17% of our total armed forces, reserves, which includes, among other things, investing and that is scheduled to rise to 25% under our proposals. an additional £240 million in improved training for This compares to 36% in Australia, 51% in Canada—that reservists, including more overseas training, and investing is the figure I have—and 55% in the US. an additional £200 million over the next 10 years for Since the original Haldane reforms in the last century, improved equipment. The reserves have already received the reserves have always made an essential contribution the same new-style uniform as their regular colleagues, to national security. In world war two, eight of the while Bowman radio equipment is being issued, along 13 infantry divisions that went out in the British with new vehicles and personal fighting equipment. We expeditionary force were from the Territorial Army. will also pair Army reserve units with regular units to That shows the scale of the contribution it has made enable the sustained delivery of high-quality training historically. and the development of fully integrated capabilities, as well as the sharing of knowledge, skills and experience. Richard Drax: Will my right hon. Friend give way? Much has been said about support from employers, Mr Francois: I will take my hon. Friend’s intervention, which is vital—we recognise that. Only recently I launched but I am told that I must finish by 3 pm, so his might the corporate covenant, which all the major employer have to be the only one. organisations have signed up to, including the Business Services Association, the British Chambers of Commerce, Richard Drax: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. the Institute of Directors, the Federation of Small Although the reserves were bigger in those days, more Businesses and the Confederation of British Industry. resources were put into them. The big question is whether In addition, individual companies such as Barclays, we will have sufficient resources to put into an increasing BAE Systems, National Express and General Dynamics number of reserves. My fear is that we will not and that have joined the covenant, one of the key points of the regulars will suffer as a consequence. which is endorsing the release of reserves. I am attending an event tonight, where I confidently anticipate more Mr Francois: I understand my hon. Friend’s question. firms will sign up. Employers tell me there are benefits I believe that we will—we are devoting £1.8 billion to to having reservists on their payroll. They are highly our programme of reserve expansion, which is a significant motivated and trained personnel who can take their amount, given all the challenges in the budget. military leadership skills back into the workplace. 961 Defence Reforms17 OCTOBER 2013 Defence Reforms 962

Mr Baron: Will my right hon. Friend give way? he wrote to the Secretary of State about this in detail and he knows that the Secretary of State replied to him Mr Francois: I am afraid I really do not have time. in detail and rebutted every point that he made. For the For some employers, there will be directly transferrable benefit of the House, I will ensure that a copy of that qualifications, skills and experience between reserve letter is placed in the Library this afternoon. service and civilian employment, which can be very valuable. To come to the heart of this matter, I believe Mr Baron: I am pleased that the Minister is going that as parliamentarians we should get behind the reserves to do that because all the points made by the Secretary and the Army to support them in their endeavours. It is of State have, in turn, themselves been rebutted; many true that there have been some administrative issues in of them were based on false assumptions. the process—it is too bureaucratic, as some of my hon. Given how little time is left, let me clarify this. One is Friends have pointed out. However, we are working not saying “Scrap the reservist plans”. In many respects, with our recruiting partner, Capita, and the senior one wants them to work. What one is saying is that Army leadership to actively address those issues. there comes a point in any project whereby if extra costs keep being thrown into a plan—because it is failing or Mr Baron: Will my right hon. Friend give way? because recruitment targets cannot be met or because costs are rising and TA numbers are at a low ebb or Mr Francois: I believe we can work through those because of disorganisation—there comes a point when issues, simplify the system and meet the objective. We one has to ask “Is this project creating false economies, should remember that the key target is 30,000 trained to therefore costing the taxpayer dear?” The motion says phase two by 2018. We start with around 19,000 or so simply that we should “delay” the axing of the regular trained. That is not a cold start: we are two thirds of the battalions until we know that the reservist plan is both way there, and we need to achieve the other third over “viable and cost-effective”; otherwise, because of false four years. My hon. Friend the Member for South West economies and unrealistic expectations, the taxpayer Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) summed it up brilliantly: could pay dearly. That is not unreasonable, but I am we need, on average, an additional 20 reservists from afraid that my right hon. Friend has failed to answer each parliamentary constituency across the country in that central point in the motion. I thus have no hesitation order to do that. I believe we certainly can do that. As whatever in pressing the motion and calling for a Division. the Chief of the General Staff reminded us at a successful Question put. reception in Parliament for the Royal Engineers reserves only yesterday, that is a challenging proposition, but a The House divided: Ayes 92, Noes 0. workable one. I agree with CGS: we can do this; let us Division No. 104] [3.3 pm get on with it. AYES 3pm Alexander, Heidi Gray, Mr James Mr Baron: I would like to add my warm welcome to Bain, Mr William Greenwood, Lilian Baker, Steve Hamilton, Mr David you, Madam Deputy Speaker, in your new post. Baron, Mr John Hanson, rh Mr David I am afraid that I listened to my right hon. Friend the Bayley, Hugh Healey, rh John Minister, but found that key questions remained Beith, rh Sir Alan Hilling, Julie unanswered. In fact, I do not think he answered one of Berger, Luciana Hodge, rh Margaret the questions I put to him. In a debate of this nature Betts, Mr Clive Irranca-Davies, Huw and importance, it is a shame that he is not willing to Blackman-Woods, Roberta Jenkin, Mr Bernard take an intervention from the Member who sponsored Blenkinsop, Tom Jones, Mr Kevan it. The bottom line is that questions such as “When did Blunkett, rh Mr David Khan, rh Sadiq the plan change from back in 2011?” and “How much Bottomley, Sir Peter Lammy, rh Mr David of the £1.8 billion has already been spent?”, questions Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Leigh, Sir Edward Brown, Lyn Lewis, Dr Julian about the impact assessment, about the costs involved Burden, Richard Lopresti, Jack in doubling the mobilisation rate and so on and so forth Campbell, Mr Alan Love, Mr Andrew have not been answered in detail—all we have had is a Clappison, Mr James Mactaggart, Fiona sense of direction. Coaker, Vernon Marsden, Mr Gordon No one doubts for one moment the courage and Coffey, Ann McCabe, Steve service of past reservists or indeed of future reservists. Cooper, rh Yvette McCann, Mr Michael One is not critical of that— Creagh, Mary McDonald, Andy Creasy, Stella Mearns, Ian Mr Francois: Will my hon. Friend give way? Cruddas, Jon Miller, Andrew Cunningham, Mr Jim Mills, Nigel David, Wayne Murray, Ian Mr Baron: I will give way to the Minister if he will Davies, Geraint Offord, Dr Matthew answer this question: does he accept that recruitment Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Onwurah, Chi targets are being missed to the extent that has been Dugher, Michael Osborne, Sandra reported in The Daily Telegraph today? If he gives me a Eagle, Ms Angela Percy, Andrew straight answer to that, I will take his question. Ellman, Mrs Louise Perkins, Toby Engel, Natascha Phillips, Stephen Mr Francois: I do not normally comment on leaked Evans, Chris Phillipson, Bridget documents, and I am not about to start now. What I will Fitzpatrick, Jim Pound, Stephen say to my hon. Friend on the point of costs—in fairness, Glindon, Mrs Mary Reynolds, Jonathan I had only about seven minutes—is that he knows that Goodman, Helen Robinson, Mr Geoffrey 963 Defence Reforms 17 OCTOBER 2013 964

Rosindell, Andrew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Deaf Children and Young People Russell, Sir Bob Umunna, Mr Chuka Seabeck, Alison Vaz, Valerie Sheerman, Mr Barry Vickers, Martin 3.17 pm Shuker, Gavin Whitehead, Dr Alan Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I beg to move, Skinner, Mr Dennis Wilson, Phil That this House recognises the importance of services for deaf Smith, Henry Winnick, Mr David Spellar, rh Mr John children and young people and acknowledges the wide attainment Winterton, rh Ms Rosie gap; further recognises that communications support for deaf Stewart, Bob Wright, Mr Iain Tami, Mark children and their parents is vital for social development and educational progress; acknowledges that the Government has Thomas, Mr Gareth Tellers for the Ayes: stated there is an expectation that funding for vulnerable learners Timms, rh Stephen Richard Drax and is protected, but is concerned about recent evidence uncovered by Twigg, Derek Mr David Nuttall the National Deaf Children’s Society which shows that in 2013-14 over a third of local authorities plan to cut education services for NOES deaf children; urges the Government to take steps to hold local authorities to account and support parents in doing so, including Graham Jones Tellers for the Noes: by asking Ofsted to inspect these vital services, improving access Nic Dakin and to communication support including sign language, and strengthening the Children and Families Bill currently before Parliament; and Question accordingly agreed to. further urges the Government to deliver and implement reform of special educational needs. Resolved, It is a particular pleasure to be launching this debate That this House notes concerns about the Government’s defence reforms in relation to whether its proposals for the reserve forces under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker, will deliver either the anticipated cost savings or defence capability; having nominated you for the post. I know that you will and urges the Government to delay the disbandment of regular conduct it with the usual good humour and common units until it is established that the Army Reserve plan is viable sense that is your characteristic, and I will do my best to and cost-effective. respond in a similar fashion to any strictures you may impose on me. I am particularly pleased to have the opportunity to launch this debate. I am grateful to 79 Members of the House who supported the call for us to debate this important subject, and to the Backbench Business Committee for agreeing to it. I have to declare an interest, in that I am a vice-president of the National Deaf Children’s Society and of Action on Hearing Loss, and I chair the all-party group on deafness. I can also declare a personal interest, as I have a deaf daughter. She is now grown up, but she was six when I was elected to the House, so throughout my time here, and for some time before, issues relating to deaf adults and deaf children have been of paramount concern to me. I requested today’s debate because I am concerned that support for deaf children is being cut at a time when they need more, not less, support. Having campaigned on these issues for such a long time, I remain frustrated that this country does not support deaf people as well as I believe it should and as well as some other countries do. Ten years ago, I produced a report for the Council of Europe on sign languages. I secured support from the Parliamentary Assembly for legal recognition of sign languages across Europe; sadly, the Committee of Ministers never acted on it. I still feel that we need to ensure that deaf children get the help they need, particularly in terms of communication support. More than 50,000 people have signed a petition calling on the Government to act on the issue and many MPs have signed the motion and shown support for the debate. There is considerable strength of interest in and support for the subject. The debate is being closely watched by deaf people and their families across the country and is being actively monitored in the Twittersphere by those who are most directly affected.

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The right hon. Gentleman and I knew Jack Ashley, who then became Lord Ashley, very well and we remember his campaigning fervour and what a wonderful person 965 Deaf Children and Young People17 OCTOBER 2013 Deaf Children and Young People 966 he was. He was an exemplar—they said that a deaf such teachers were trained and resourced. That is a person could not cope in this Chamber, but he showed problem. Too often, children are being taught by people that he could. I wanted to get his name on the record who are inadequately qualified in such specialist teaching, today, because we both worked with him and admired not because the local authority does not want to employ him greatly. qualified teachers but because they are not available.

Sir Malcolm Bruce: I absolutely acknowledge that. Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): I am very Jack Ashley was the honorary president of the all-party grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who is being very group and, having at first been sceptical about setting generous in giving way. Does he agree that the forthcoming up a discrete group for deaf people, he actively supported Bill, which envisages a nought-to-25 process, will be it once it was created. That is a key part of this debate. I more inclusive for families and administratively less accept that all kinds of children have special educational cumbersome and burdensome? That can only be a good needs and have no doubt that the Minister will allude to thing. Government policy on special educational needs, but I hope that he will also accept that deaf children have Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I am sure that the specific needs that need to be articulated expressly in Minister will make clear the initiatives that the Government policy and not just swept up in general issues of special have taken, many of which I commend; they are helpful. needs and disability. I am not here to criticise the Government for what they are doing, but I think that more could be done, and I Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Before the right hope that we can press the Government to consider hon. Gentleman moves away from the subject of sign what that might be. language, is he aware of the problems faced by people Ninety per cent. of deaf children are born to hearing such as my constituent Rachel Goswell? She has a parents who, when they are confronted, as I was, with profoundly deaf son, Jesse, and the only way of the knowledge that their child is profoundly deaf, often communicating with him will be to learn sign language have no knowledge of, or contact with, the deaf community. herself. There is no support locally for parents to learn I pay tribute to the National Deaf Children’s Society, sign language. Does he agree that that and the training which provides excellent support for people when that of educationalists at a local level cannot be left to a happens to them. postcode lottery? There must be national guidelines so that everyone in England gets the same level of support. Eighty per cent. of deaf children are now being educated in mainstream schools, which is different from Sir Malcolm Bruce: I am extremely grateful for that the time when my daughter was educated, and they may intervention, because my speech will make that point be the only deaf child in that school. The question that powerfully. There has been some progress from the has to be asked is how well deaf children are achieving. previous and present Governments, but there has not Government figures suggest that only 37% of deaf yet been enough. That is a powerful point that I hope children achieved five good GCSEs last year. That is a the Minister and other Ministers will take on board. dismally low, indeed a shameful, figure because it compares with 69% for hearing children. Let us be clear that It is estimated that there are 45,000 deaf children in deafness is not in itself a learning disability. There is no the UK, but no one actually knows how many there are. reason why the majority of deaf children should not There is no systematic collection of statistics or data on achieve the same as other children, provided that they deaf children, and that is a problem in itself. As we get the right specialist support. increasingly mainstream deaf children, they become less visible and can also be socially isolated, particularly if they are the only deaf child in the school. There is Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): evidence that they might be bullied, they might suffer Not only is the difference in achievement between children depression and not all of them thrive. I am not against with hearing problems and their peers shocking but it is mainstreaming in principle, but I believe that some getting worse. That figure of 37% was down from 40% profoundly and severely deaf children will make better the year before. So things are going in the wrong direction. progress in a school resourced properly and dedicated The right hon. Gentleman may also be aware that it is to their needs. Schools such as Heathlands in St Albans estimated that 80% of teachers of deaf children are over and Frank Barnes, which serves London, offer impressive 50. So we shall have a serious recruitment problem if we education for deaf children but such schools are not do not do something about this quickly. found everywhere in the country. Sir Malcolm Bruce: That is right. I have been shown Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I thank my local authority adverts for teachers of deaf children right hon. Friend for giving way and commend him for that did not require full capacity in sign language. In securing this important debate. I am pleased to say that some circumstances, the sign language of the children is in Warwickshire there have been no reductions in services better than that of the teacher, and that cannot be for deaf children, but there are great difficulties in satisfactory. finding qualified teachers to fill vacant posts. Does my Things are getting worse in many areas. The NDCS right hon. Friend agree that one issue we need to resolve has carried out a survey that shows that 29% of local is how to ensure that we train the next generation of authorities are cutting services for deaf children and a specialist teachers for deaf children? further 25% have identified that there is a risk of cuts. Of course we are living in a time of spending restraint, Sir Malcolm Bruce: I absolutely do. The Government but that should not impact on people who have such could take a number of measures that would help to real need and are so vulnerable. The Government have lead to a market and a demand that would ensure that made it clear that they want to maintain support for 967 Deaf Children and Young People17 OCTOBER 2013 Deaf Children and Young People 968

[Sir Malcolm Bruce] can develop sign language support for them. The point has been made that many families are paying thousands vulnerable learners, but if it is not happening we have to of pounds of their own money for sign language ask the Government what more they can do to ensure education—if they can find the teachers—so that they that cuts do not happen and that standards are maintained. can communicate with their children. I do not believe We have to work out what can be done to maintain that that is acceptable. support for deaf children, and we should have aspirations When I undertook a report for the Council of Europe, to do a lot better. I discovered that the policies in Scandinavia meant that One suggestion is that Ofsted should be required to interpreters were readily available and that in most inspect services for deaf children. When we consider Scandinavian countries as soon as a child was diagnosed how much scrutiny mainstream teachers in schools are as deaf, free tuition in sign language was offered to the subject to by Ofsted, many people tell me that they are child and their family. I commend that as a practice that surprised that teachers of the deaf and specialist support should be available to people in this country. services are subject to virtually no such oversight. That sends a signal that deaf education is less important than Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): mainstream. The reason that is so important, as the right hon. Gentleman will know, is that any form of communication Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and in early years is critical to the life outcomes of children Lesmahagow) (Lab): Does the right hon. Gentleman later in their life. Does he therefore agree that this is think that the reason the Government do not want to something that the Government should be looking at examine these issues is that the poor standard of teachers very hard indeed? for the deaf would be exposed and there would rightly be a public scandal? Sir Malcolm Bruce: Indeed. The number of deaf children has diminished in recent years and in some Sir Malcolm Bruce: That is a problem of government, ways that is a good thing. We have rubella vaccination I suppose. I would like to believe that Governments in and other measures, but deafness will not be eliminated. the end will say, “We need data and if the data show Congenital deafness or unexplained deafness in newborn that we are not up to the mark, even if we cannot solve children happens, and diseases such as meningitis can the problem overnight, we will at least embark on a lead to deafness in infancy, so there will always be some strategy to do something about it.” So it is not a good deaf people in our community and they need to be excuse not to inspect services. I should be interested to adequately supported. hear from the Minister whether the Government would Although cochlear implants have made an impressive consider giving Ofsted a specific responsibility. contribution, they are not a cure. There is evidence now Ofsted did a report on communication last year, of children who were given cochlear implants 15 years looking at three local authorities that had established ago not coping brilliantly in the mainstream, as people best practice. That was interesting, but it did not tell us had hoped. They are still deaf; they just have a very much about the other 149 authorities that it had not sophisticated hearing aid. We went through a generation studied. So we do not know and we need to know. If assuming that we had solved the problem. We have not. there is a recognition that people are going to be scrutinised, We have made a contribution to alleviating it, which is that gets the Government off the hook to some extent not the same thing. because it means that the authorities must respond to I commend the previous Government and the former that scrutiny. Every tier of government that has a Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy responsibility must accept its share of responsibility. I and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), who in response to a hope the Government will consider that as a practical Prime Minister’s question, found resources within the suggestion. Department for Education to set up a pilot project Communication support is at the heart of what deaf called I-Sign which ran in Devon and Merseyside to children and their families need. I know that from provide support to deaf parents and children, and led to personal experience. I have very poor sign language. I the creation of more sign language interpreters and a did go on a course but I found it very difficult. It is a very much stronger support network in those two areas. language and I had difficulty keeping up with it. I try That pilot was a success and the present Prime Minister where I can. I notice that every time I am in the has acknowledged that fact, but the scheme has not yet company of deaf people—which, because of my interest, been rolled out nationally. When he responds, I am sure I very often am—the transformation of that relationship the Minister will report that the Government have by the sheer appearance of an interpreter is phenomenal. taken it forward, which I welcome, but I would love to Therefore I understand absolutely why communication believe that we will get to a point where that is the support is so valuable. As one blind person said to me, national standard. “I would prefer to be blind than deaf because being The step change in sign language that we need could blind cuts me off from things, but being deaf would cut be driven by technical innovations. The Minister responsible me off from people and I would find that far worse.” for communications in the Department for Culture, That is what people need to understand—the social Media and Sport has been actively engaged with the isolation resulting from the lack of communication telecommunications industry to try to develop video support. relay services. BT and, this week Sky, announced that I tabled a private Member’s Bill which notionally has sign language-using customers wishing to communicate its Second Reading next Friday. It identifies the areas of with Sky or with BT can do so using a video relay communication support that the deaf community is service. Most deaf people I know who talk about video looking for, and it identifies the need to ensure that we relay services say, “I don’t want a video relay service to 969 Deaf Children and Young People17 OCTOBER 2013 Deaf Children and Young People 970 talk to BT. I want a video relay service to talk to my teaching deaf children. He ended up taking a squad of mum, my boss or other people.”That system is established teachers from Paris to American, which is why American right across America, and it is hugely successful. I hope deaf people use a sign language based on French sign that we can find a way to achieve that, because it would language, rather than British sign language. We invented make a huge contribution to communication. It would sign language, but we have not always led the way in also lead to a rapid expansion in the provision of sign innovating and establishing it. language interpreters, because they would have a reliable I challenge this Government, and any Government source of income. I commend the Government for what who come after them, to say, “We will no longer leave they have done so far but urge them to come up with a deaf people behind. We can transform their lives.” The definitive solution that will make the difference. resources are not great and the mechanisms are clearly Our attitudes towards sign language communication understood, so let us just do it. and spoken language communication are quite different. The Department for Work and Pensions gave sign language Several hon. Members rose— legal recognition, or definition, 10 years ago, which was hailed as a breakthrough, but it is not recognised across Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. government, so that is another challenge for the We are short of time this afternoon, as Members will be Government. They recognise Cornish, Welsh and Gaelic, aware. The debate has to finish by 5 o’clock. I will not which receive huge resources, yet British sign language, impose a time limit at this stage but will wait to see how which is an indigenous, created language—indeed, sign we proceed. I ask Members not to make long speeches. language itself was invented in Scotland—is not supported. Hopefully they will be about eight minutes long, but For some people it is their only language. I know of no 10 minutes is the maximum, including interventions. I Welsh or Gaelic speakers—I do not know that there are hope that everybody will be able to participate in this any Cornish speakers—who do not also speak English, important debate. but there are sign language users who do not communicate 3.39 pm in English. We do not support them in the same way we support people who use minority spoken languages. Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Baroness Howe of Idlicote has tabled an amendment Lesmahagow) (Lab): I have quite a lot to say, Madam to the Children and Families Bill to try to bring such Deputy Speaker, but I will try to bear in mind the time support forward, so the issue might come back to this constraints. House. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Gordon I know that the Minister has done some extremely (Sir Malcolm Bruce) on bringing this debate to the good work and have heard many people in the industry Chamber. I declare a personal interest, because my commend him strongly for it. However, like everybody three siblings—my younger brother, Brian, and my two else, he is a cog in a machine that cannot always deliver younger sisters, Clare and Delia—are profoundly deaf. everything we want as fast as we want it and across the Equality is a word that we often bandy about in this piece. I hope that he will tell us what the Government House, but deaf people in the United Kingdom have are doing. I do not expect him to say, “Yes, of course we never had equality in education. Progress has been will adopt all those things”, but we do want champions made thanks to deafness campaigners such as my parents, in the Government who are prepared to drive them Bridget and Charles McCann—the self-same parents forward and who recognise that it is simply not right to the right hon. Gentleman mentioned who suddenly had leave out a whole section of the community who have a deaf child and did not get any access to services to real and identifiable needs for which there are practical support them. However, the fight goes on. The motion solutions, not all of which cost a huge amount of highlights the fact that we still have much work to do, money, but which could transform their life attainment. with the fear and danger that local authorities might cut They could also provide economic benefits, because the back on services for deaf children and young people. vast majority of deaf people either cannot get a job or, The National Deaf Children’s Society has evidence to when they get into the jobs market, get one well below suggest that education services for deaf people might be their skills and standards, so they are inevitably a drain cut. We should not be talking about cuts; if we genuinely on the community. They also suffer a much higher seek to bring about equality for deaf people, services proportion of mental illness. Supporting them will have must be increased. an economic benefit as well as improving the quality of Colleagues will have noticed my Scottish accent and their lives. the fact that I represent a seat in Scotland that some I have spent 30 years campaigning in this House. In people have difficulty in pronouncing, particularly the many ways I feel frustrated at how little we have achieved. last part. I entered this debate also to flag up the fact I acknowledge the steps that have been taken, but when that Scotland is a year behind the cuts and austerity I remember what I saw in Finland and Sweden and measures that have been brought in for local government, compare it with what I see in this country, it seems a real although I do not mention that in a party political shame that the United Kingdom cannot do more to sense. The Prime Minister agreed with the First Minister, transform the lives of deaf people in our country. Alex Salmond, that Scotland would retain its budget in We had been pioneers in this regard. Donaldson’s 2010, so we are a year behind the curve. There is already school in Edinburgh led the way in developing sign speculation in Scotland about local government services language. The ironic twist—this is my final point—is being cut, and I suspect that services to deaf children that when Thomas Hopkins Gallaudet came from America and young people are in danger. That is the relevance of to find out how to set up a school to teach deaf children my participation in this debate. in Boston, the Donaldson’s institute said that it was not I will not be ungenerous in suggesting that we have prepared to share its teaching mechanism with him. In not made some progress in the past 40 years. Let me tell despair, he found that there was a seminary in Paris the House about my experience with my brothers and 971 Deaf Children and Young People17 OCTOBER 2013 Deaf Children and Young People 972

[Mr Michael McCann] Moreover, if parents want their child to attend a specialist school, they should not just be lumped in a classroom sisters. I remember the grey bus arriving in front of our with a bunch of other children, because that will drag house in East Kilbride. On the bus were children with them down. every disability one could think of—physical disabilities, Time is of the essence. I will cut a couple of pages of physical and mental disabilities, or deaf-blindness. The what I was going to say; the right hon. Member for amalgamation of challenges presented by those children Gordon has already mentioned the statistics on deaf with disabilities led to two things. First, it dumbed people, so I need not rehearse them again. We should down education. At the school my brother and sisters recognise that there are many shades between hearing went to, the education was carried out at the lowest and deafness: some have lost a little hearing while common denominator instead of challenging the kids others lose it a little later in life, and on the other side of to do the best they could. the spectrum are those who are profoundly death. With Secondly, there was the stigma. As you can imagine, the greatest respect to the tribute paid to Jack Ashley children can be cruel. As the elder brother, I ended up earlier, we should remember that he became deaf and with a few second prizes in the pugilism stakes. If your was not born deaf, and that there is a world of difference brother’s and sisters’ honour is criticised in some way, for people who have never heard the spoken word. or they are taunted by other children, then you step in The key issue is British sign language, the officially and defend them. Yes, children can be cruel, but we recognised language for the deaf. As the right hon. should remember that adults—the educationists of the Gentleman has said, it is diverse and colourful and as time—created the system that enabled them to be so. finessed as any other language in the world. In fact, The inequality of 40 years ago was palpable. Profoundly Members may be interested to know that every person’s deaf children were not allowed to sign. The right hon. sign name is unique. I could not possibly show the Member for Gordon talked about British sign language. House some of the signs that have been made for my We made up our own sign language in the house, relatives over the years, because they cannot be recorded because there was no formal language to communicate in Hansard, but they would make Members chuckle. in. Believe it or not, my brother was forced to sit with In the world of education, the gatekeepers—the his hands behind his back in the classroom, unable to educationalists—know better, or so they think. Members communicate, despite the fact that he was profoundly may be surprised or even shocked to learn that teachers deaf. Forty years ago, deaf children had no access to the of the deaf are expected to have only BSL level 3 as a curriculum that I had as a hearing child. That meant qualification. However, as the right hon. Gentleman that their ability to learn was stifled. Bright young deaf has said, the fact that there is such a dearth of talent in children were consigned to the dustbin on the day and this field means that some get jobs as teachers of the hour they first entered their primary school. deaf and are labelled as such even though they have skills only at BSL level 2. It should be an aspiration, I am glad that my brother and sisters have done very and I hope the Minister will address that issue in his well in their adult lives, mainly because of my parents’ response. We should raise the standards for teachers of refusal to take no for an answer. They refused to take on the deaf and ensure that the right quality of individual board what the educationists of the time said was good is teaching our deaf children. I have thought about the for such children. The perceived wisdom of the day was best way to describe the situation. It is like asking that people listened to the educationists. Hearing parents someone who has just failed their driving test to become who did not know about deafness would take the word a driving instructor: they know a little, but they are not of the people who were professional and allegedly knew competent and should not be allowed to drive on their more than they did. The less vigorous parents, who were own. not prepared to campaign like my parents, took the That is a practical example by way of analogy, but I educationalists’ word and ultimately their children suffered have another one. My brother Brian has five deaf children and did not get anywhere near the aspirations achieved who all go to school. His eldest daughter, Monika, is by my brother and sisters. However, they have fallen 12 years old and has more advanced communication foul of many of the problems mentioned by the right skills than her teachers. They have BSL level 2 and she is hon. Gentleman, including mental health issues and the way above that at level 7 or 8, perhaps even higher. As inability to get employment. I often wonder what my she progresses through high school she will meet challenges brother and sisters could have achieved—even though and become a frustrated child unable to fulfil her potential, they have achieved a lot—had they had access to the because her teachers are not able to communicate with same education opportunities as me. her properly. In primary education and at high school, the quality Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Thomasson Memorial of the teacher must rise with the child. The teacher school, an excellent primary school for deaf children must always be ahead of the child and have far advanced and children with hearing difficulties, is located in my communication skills so that the child does not feel constituency. Does my hon. Friend agree that parents frustrated. When they sign something to the teacher in and children should be able to choose whether to attend British sign language, the teacher must understand what a specialist school for children with disabilities or a the problem is and how to communicate with them. mainstream school? The needs of the child should be Sadly, the children in my family have become frustrated paramount in any educationalist’s decision about the on many occasions because they are bright, sparky kids best education for them. who have not always had the opportunity to be educated properly. Mr McCann: I agree. Choice is important and I will The NDCS has uncovered some circumstantial evidence, discuss it later. If parents want their child to attend a but local authorities are reluctant to disclose information hearing school, they must be supported in that choice. about deaf education. A hypothesis for that might be 973 Deaf Children and Young People17 OCTOBER 2013 Deaf Children and Young People 974 that they do not want the figures to be revealed. I was greatly encouraged to hear from Justine that Outrageously, Ofsted does not inspect services for the her daughter got such excellent support, but I am aware deaf routinely, as the right hon. Member for Gordon that that is not universally available across the country. I said. Local authorities are damaging the life chances of ask the Minister to make an assessment of the varying young deaf people across the United Kingdom. This standard of support across the country. One small debate has provided the opportunity to expose that example, which is important for Justine’s family, concerns argument to a wider audience, not only in this House, her daughter’s hearing aids, which require four batteries but across the country. a day. When they run out, Justine has a one-hour round If there are to be further cuts to local government trip to a hospital to collect them, yet in a neighbouring services, there is a danger that deafness will once again area, rechargeable batteries for hearing aids are available. take a back seat and that those who are already vulnerable Another difficulty for some families concerns getting will be affected. My father once described deafness as a a statement of educational needs for their child. One Cinderella disability because nobody can see it. When a highly experienced teacher of the deaf, Liz Gwynn, has child is physically disabled, we do not shirk the responsibility spent many years liaising with local authorities. She of meeting the costs of the support that they need to told me—quite bluntly—that the reason for the delay or participate in the education system. Why is there such a lack of statement is often that, dearth of ambition and support for deaf children? “local authorities don’t want to commit to the financial implications Local government cannot be allowed to attack this of a Statement.” Cinderella disability because it thinks that it can get That cannot be right. away with it. We must stop paying lip service to equality The one-to-one support provided by a teacher of the of opportunity for every child and start providing it. deaf in my council of Cheshire East is greatly appreciated, 3.51 pm but it amounts to only one hour a week. Ideally, every deaf child and their family needs much more support Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I support what the and time. A teacher of the deaf plays a critical role in a right hon. Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce) child’s development because they advise on whether the has said in this debate and, as a member of the all-party child is accessing the curriculum properly and adequately, parliamentary group on deafness, I thank him for his on that child’s language development and how they are dedicated work as its chair. hearing through hearing aids or cochlear implants, and I am proud to have a deaf-aware nursery in my on whether they need a radio aid to help them. Such constituency, which is based at the New Life church in teachers can act as an intermediary between the child or Congleton. It has been running for 25 years and caters family and the school, in addition to helping set targets for able children, as well as for children with needs, such for development and providing strategies and ideas for as those with deafness or autism, and it will soon have a accessing lessons. All hon. Members will agree that that child with Down’s syndrome. For the past five years, it cannot be done in one hour a week. has been managed by Margaret Sanders, a special In Cheshire East there is a ratio of one teacher of the educational needs co-ordinator with a passion for inclusion deaf to every 45 children—a phenomenal challenge for who has worked hard to ensure that the nursery goes those teachers. I struggle to see how a teacher of the the extra mile to provide support for deaf children in an deaf can support that number of children and their extra special way. However, such early-years provision families, let alone even more, yet I understand that in should not only be available when one inspirational some parts of the country there is even less support for individual is backed by committed community support, deaf children. such as that provided by New Life. The nursery also works closely with specialist organisations such as the The availability of care for deaf children and young teachers of the deaf. people should not be a postcode lottery. The National Deaf Children’s Society reports that some families with Justine Heathcote, the mother of a profoundly deaf a deaf child are fighting that issue by moving to a three-year-old girl who attends the nursery, has shared different area, which is surely unacceptable. There are some of her experiences with me. Her daughter was examples of good practice and expertise across the diagnosed as deaf just after birth. It was a traumatic country, and better sharing of support across local time for the family. Justine says generously that her authorities and support networks would be beneficial. I family have received excellent support and care from the would be grateful if the Minister would tell the House nursery and the local authority. Crucially, that included whether there are any plans to share best practice across her daughter being given a teacher of the deaf immediately. authorities and promote a more collaborative approach. I ask the Minister to do all that he can to ensure that that always happens. A family must be given the appropriate The exemplary nursery in my constituency, to which I support straight away, either at birth or on diagnosis. I referred, aims to maximise the individual potential of have heard that in some cases it takes 10 years from each child, but it is placed in a dilemma. When a child when hearing starts to deteriorate before a clear diagnosis who has received that much-needed support—designed is made. to raise their attainment levels in the early years to those of their non-deaf peers—moves to primary school, they Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Does my hon. Friend are assessed. If they are assessed to be above a certain welcome the measures in the Children and Families Bill, level, any one-to-one support that the child previously as I do, to create care plans for people that go from received, or which they may need in future, is withdrawn, nought to 24 years of age? and they begin primary school without it. What should the nursery do? Should it support the child to develop Fiona Bruce: I very much welcome that, because it is to the maximum level possible and risk that one-to-one crucial that families can plan ahead from the earliest support being withdrawn when they go to primary possible moment of childhood. school? Withdrawal of such support would undoubtedly 975 Deaf Children and Young People17 OCTOBER 2013 Deaf Children and Young People 976

[Fiona Bruce] 79 Members pledged support for a debate on the subject. I do not regard myself as an expert on the matter and result in the child falling back and not continuing to see the debate as the start of a learning exercise. I have flourish to the same degree that they need and for which already learned a lot simply by listening to the right the nursery has given them a head start. If we believe hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend the Member for East that every child should have the opportunity to develop Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) to their fullest potential, surely that must be the case for and the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce). the more vulnerable children in our society. When looking at the National Deaf Children’s Society If a parent wants their child to go to a mainstream material, I was struck by its point that, although deafness school in later years, it is crucial for support to be is not a learning disability, deaf children underachieve established at the start and to continue throughout the throughout their education. As has been mentioned, as child’s early years. Liz Gwynn explains: many as 80% of deaf children are in mainstream schools “In a big class with a ratio of 15 pupils to one staff member, or where they might be the only deaf child in attendance, even thirty to one, it is very easy for a deaf child to be overlooked, which suggests that we should perhaps look again at the especially if they aren’t a behavioural issue. They can appear to be balance between mainstream and specialist schooling. understanding, but when questioned often haven’t a clue and get It also suggests that we need to recognise the important by by copying what others are doing.” role of specialist speech and language services, whether Such a situation can result in low self-esteem and lack the specialist works directly with the child or assists the of confidence. That is the “stolen future” that the school or parents. National Deaf Children’s Society is raising awareness of, and I commend its work with local groups and I note that an amendment designed to maintain parents around the country. I encourage the Minister to speech and language therapy as special educational support those groups and ensure that all families have provision is proposed to the Children and Families access to them. Will he review the assessment procedure Bill in the other place. It would be good to know that for deaf children and young people, not just when they the Government are giving the proposal favourable enter school, but when they move to another educational consideration. establishment for the first time, so as to determine I am a realist on the economic situation and the appropriate individual provision for that child or young amount of money we have to spend on any service, so I person? Sign language is critical, yet 81% of parents recognise that there is no magic fund on which the with deaf children never learn how to fully communicate Minister can call, but we need to focus on the available with their child through that. money and how it is spent. Local authorities are not Justine, to whom I have referred, says she managed to obliged to passport to schools money for specialist get funding for level 1, but was unable to get funding for education support service. It occurs to me that this is an level 2, which she took at her own expense of £400. area where decisions should be taken in conjunction Level 3, at £1,000, is simply too expensive for the family. with parents. It is not enough for a local authority to Will the Minister consider what duties can be placed on say, “We’ve given the money to the schools and we’re local authorities to provide sign language support for washing our hands of it.”There may be some circumstances families? where schools are the right people to hold the budget, but there may be others where the local authority, or As we have heard, deafness itself is not a learning some other partnership, should play a key part. This is disability, but we can do so much more to ensure that one area where we should not be too quick to diminish the attainment of deaf children and young people does the role of local education authorities, and where the not continue to fall worryingly behind that of their case for partnership and collaboration rather than non-deaf peers. competition between schools is well made. Like others, I have noticed that so far 29% of local authorities have 4pm indicated an intention to cut specialist education services. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I The vast majority of local councils already do not have begin by apologising for the fact that I am seeking any specialist social care services for deaf children. permission to leave before the end of the debate because This must be extremely worrying for parents of deaf I must attend an annual prize-giving in Baverstock children. school in my constituency tonight. May I take this I hope the Minister is minded to look at the National opportunity, in my first outing in my new role, to pay Deaf Children’s Society’s proposals, particularly that tribute to the work of my predecessors, my hon. Friend Ofsted should inspect specialist education services for the Member for Washington and Sunderland West deaf children, that local authorities should be required (Mrs Hodgson) and my hon. Friend the Member for to publish details of how much is spent on SEN provision Wigan (Lisa Nandy)? and what services are actually available. We must have I thank the right hon. Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm the data, otherwise we will never comprehend the scope Bruce) for the work he has done over his years in the of the issue and the best way to proceed. I would House for deaf children, and for securing this debate. I welcome improvements to the code of practice to make also thank the hon. Members who have supported him. it easier for parents to hold local authorities to account. I found his speech informative and illuminating. I was Parents have a tough enough job as it is. Our role interested in his points about the use of technology and should be to try to make it easier for them support for sign language. I conclude by once again congratulating those who This is a Backbench Business Committee debate. secured the debate and have taken part. I hope that this Consequently, I intend to be brief. I acknowledge the is an area where the Minister and I can find common large number of people who signed the e-petition calling ground, put the party politics aside and work together for the protection of specialist deaf services, and that in the interests of deaf children and their parents. 977 Deaf Children and Young People17 OCTOBER 2013 Deaf Children and Young People 978

4.7 pm is that due to financial constraints we may have to become a ‘traded service’ this would mean that schools may have to buy us Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): in on an hourly rate.” I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce) on securing the debate Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The hon. Lady and for his contribution, over so many years, to this has hit the nail on the head. In this very important area of work. I have raised issues about the education of area—it is the same with speech therapy—people are deaf children on many occasions, but this is the first reluctant to address some of these needs and concerns time that I have spoken in a debate concentrated solely because of the lack of money available. on this topic. This is a good opportunity to reinforce the many points raised by the National Deaf Children’s Annette Brooke: I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point, Society. but I am flagging up fears about the future, not about I continue to be saddened that deaf children experience what is happening now. If each school had to buy in the an attainment gap, which is reflected so strongly in service, it would be more difficult to spread it over a GCSE results. About a month ago, I had the pleasure of larger number of pupils. I think we would still have meeting at party conference a deaf young person called excellent support in Dorset for those with a statement Adam, who was introduced to me by the NDCS. Adam of educational need or an education health care plan, is an extremely bright, confident and articulate deaf but many of those with not such severe conditions are young man, and was quickly in charge of the whole not achieving their potential in speech, language and meeting. He explained to me clearly that he would not literacy skills. It is important, therefore, not only to be where he is today without the help of the specialist consider what is happening now, but to look at what support services he had received to date. Even with deaf might happen in the future and to ensure that we young people such as Adam, we can see the risks of maintain support for hearing impaired children. what happens when support does not match their needs and is cut. Adam told me that the support he received in Like other speakers, I want to emphasise the need for maths was variable because of staff turnover, and that good, specialist communication support workers and the extra support had been reduced to just once a week. teachers. It has been many years, but I remember being This meant that he was now struggling to pick up some struck by the fact that many communication support of the complex new words and vocabulary being used workers—I still call them teaching assistants—had only and that he was no longer thriving but coping in maths. level 2 qualifications in sign language. It must be difficult for somebody with just a level 2 qualification—an important Across the country there is too much wasted potential qualification in its own right—to communicate the technical when it comes to deaf children, because too many are language of science and maths. I am really concerned not getting the support they need. I share the concerns about that. that the Department’s funding protection for vulnerable learners is not always being carried through locally. I In conclusion, we all want every child to achieve their also support the NDCS’s call for Ofsted to play a full potential, and many improvements have been made greater role in inspecting specialist support services for for children with hearing impairments over the years, deaf children. but there is more to be done, and we must protect what we are doing well at the moment. I hear really positive reports of my local services. Dorset, Bournemouth and Poole operate a long-standing joint arrangement through which specialist support is 4.14 pm provided to children with hearing or vision impairment. Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): It is a Dorset is the lead authority, and the outcomes for deaf pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and children locally have generally been good and the feedback North Poole (Annette Brooke), who has made another from parents and the young people themselves about thoughtful contribution. the work of the service is excellent. I am told that there are no plans to reduce the funding available for specialist I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing provision, which sounds good, but there are concerns this debate and I congratulate the right hon. Member about the future. I was contacted by a specialist teacher for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce) on his leadership. He who told me: concluded his remarks with some self-deprecation and self-criticism for the lack of progress over 30 years. That “At the present time we are not a traded service, this means that we can provide support, training, advice and teaching (depending is an indictment of Governments on both sides, not of on the child’s level of need) to any school in Dorset where there is his role, which has been an honourable one during his a pupil attending the school who has a hearing impairment that time in the House. Indeed, he has again demonstrated requires them to wear a hearing aid, who has a cochlear implant that today by securing this debate. We are all grateful to or similar hearing device. The school does not have to pay for this him for the opportunity to contribute. Let me also directly, which means we can respond to the level of need appropriately. express appreciation for the National Deaf Children’s We of course have a set of protocols to follow to ensure that the Society briefing and for constituents who have contacted time given to each individual is proportionate. However, often the me about this debate. pupils with a high level of need (those with a severe to profound hearing loss) have a great deal of support in school which along I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for with appropriate direction and guidance from our service enables Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), the shadow them to make good progress. It is more often (in my experience) Minister, on his first speech in his new role. He showed a those pupils with a mild to moderate hearing loss who are not clear interest in the subject and a determination to help entitled to additional support in school who find it more difficult to progress and overcome the barriers to their learning. At the the Minister, who is highly regarded and comes with present time our service is able to support these pupils also, great credentials. He has already done a good job in enabling many of them to ‘narrow the gap’ and achieve age-related other areas; no less will be expected of him in this one. expectations. However, one of the fears for our service in Dorset We are keen to hear what he has to say in concluding, 979 Deaf Children and Young People17 OCTOBER 2013 Deaf Children and Young People 980

[Jim Fitzpatrick] want to speak and obviously the Minister’s speech is important to us all. The first of the three recommendations because I am here to seek reassurances from him on the is to matters that colleagues on both sides of the House have “Ask Ofsted to inspect specialist education services for deaf raised. children.” Many colleagues are aware that I wear two hearing That does not happen, so it is key recommendation No. aids. I have a little understanding of what hearing loss is 1. The second is to improve the offer made by local about. I spend most of my time in the Chamber during councils by providing accurate data. If we are not Prime Minister’s questions standing near the Speaker’s measuring what is happening and do not have a proper Chair, because I find the loop system better there. understanding, how can we identify the nature of the However, using the loop, I miss lots of the witticisms problem and then put in place the remedies, which that other colleagues contribute—I know that they are might be obvious in many instances? I should be most sometimes better than some of the speeches, although interested to hear what the Minister has to say about fortunately not in this debate—and the whispers, and that. The third recommendation is that sometimes people think I am being rude because I do not respond. Hearing aids are great—I thank the “deaf children get the basic support they need”, audiologists at the Royal London hospital—but they which several colleagues have mentioned. are not perfect. I should have mentioned my appreciation for the My hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, House authorities and the technicians for what they do Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) and the in the House through the loop service, which is of great right hon. Member for Gordon mentioned relatives and assistance to all who use hearing aids. I am very pleased their personal experience. My experience—I suffered about this debate being called and I would like to industrial injury in the London fire brigade, which congratulate the right hon. Member for Gordon again caused damage to my hearing—is trivial compared with on securing and leading it. I have enjoyed the speeches that of children who were born with hearing loss or so far and I very much look forward to hearing from the born deaf. Given the powerful speeches that we have Minister how the Government intend to implement heard so far, and given the personal experience of those recommendations and policies to improve the situation two families in particular, I cannot imagine how much for children and young people who are in this predicament. more difficult it is for those children to come to terms with their predicament. I will come back to that point later, I hope briefly. 4.20 pm I am keen to hear what the Minister has to say, Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): It is a because we are seeking reassurances today. The two great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Poplar most disturbing stats I have read in the NDCS briefing, and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), who, by talking about which have been mentioned by other hon. Members, his own personal experiences of hearing loss, brings an concern exam passes and parental communication. As extra dimension to the debate. We have encountered colleagues have said—including my hon. Friend the that time and again when contributions deal with local Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow examples as well as national issues. and the right hon. Member for Gordon, who have I believe it is important to focus on children and personal family experience—we are not talking about young people with the disability of hearing loss. As kids who have not got ability, yet only 37% of deaf vice-chair of the all-party group on speech and language children achieve five GCSEs, which was down last year difficulties, I know that there are wider issues relating to from 40% in 2011. That is an indictment of the education the development of those services, but it is important to system and of all of us for allowing it to happen. The remember that we are talking today about a particular NDCS briefing also said: cohort—a cohort about which my right hon. Friend the “Research suggests that 40% of deaf children experience mental Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce) spoke so health problems compared to 25% of other children.” powerfully in his opening speech. I pay warm tribute to That is a shocking statistic, but it is in no shape or form him for securing this debate. I was happy to support it surprising, given what those children have to go through. as part of his bid to the Backbench Business Committee. The other point from the NDCS briefing that I found shocking was that 81% of parents with deaf children As has been rightly said, deafness is not a learning never learn how to communicate fully with their child, disability, but it can be a real barrier to learning for the which is mostly down to costs. The briefing says that it thousands of children and young people who live with costs several hundred pounds to learn to sign—I learnt it every day. Let us not forget the families of those to sign the alphabet when I was young, but it is quite a young people who are and should be involved in the long way from that to messaging by letter—but the planning of services. right hon. Member for Gordon said that it now costs What I thought was particularly interesting in the thousands of pounds. That is a real deterrent to ordinary helpful briefing from the National Deaf Children’s Society families. was the issue of working out the numbers of children In my borough of Tower Hamlets, I have met children and young people with hearing loss. The estimate is with hearing impairments and deaf children, along over 45,000, but if we look at the official figures, the with their teachers, in a variety of schools. I commend position becomes very confusing, to say the least. The all that they do in Tower Hamlets. It is clear from the school census records 16,000 children formally identified NDCS briefing that it performs a little better than as having a hearing loss special educational need. The many local authorities. However, the NDCS report asks way that is categorised, however, can vary from school for three things—they have already been mentioned, so to school, so the figure is not reliable. There clearly I will not labour them, because many colleagues still needs to be far greater co-ordination of these numbers. 981 Deaf Children and Young People17 OCTOBER 2013 Deaf Children and Young People 982

Some of the NDCS suggestions are worthy of Mr McCann: The concept of BSL as a second language consideration by the Minister—for example, whether is indeed a noble idea, but does the hon. Gentleman schools and local authorities should be requested to concede that we might as well ask for cars to run on record in the school census whether the child has a water, given that deaf children—and profoundly deaf disability as well as a formally identified special educational children in particular—are not being given the proper need; and whether there is a better way of capturing education in the classroom that is available to their whether a child has a sensory impairment by looking at hearing counterparts? the child’s unique health identifier or extending that to education and social care as well. That chimes very well Mr Buckland: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, with the education, health and care plan approach that but I am trying to make the point that there are good is central to the welcome Children and Families Bill, local examples of integration which enables children currently proceeding in the other place. The Minister and young people with hearing loss to gain access to the and I have enjoyed many debates in Committee on that mainstream rather than being isolated. I think that the and other issues, including on the strength and quality widespread use of BSL is a very good way of ensuring of the local offer that will form the heart of accountability that they are valued, that their confidence increases, for parents and children and young people with special and that they become very much part of the mainstream. educational needs. Clearly, more needs to be done properly However, it does not stop there. to identify the need in the first place. We have heard a little about radio and video-aided Let us look at a positive example of a local authority systems. The borough of Swindon is providing £20,000 that is doing much to address some of the issues identified for an extra 20 such systems, which will improve curriculum today. I refer to my own local authority of Swindon, access from pre-school to key stage 4. I am particularly which has two special resource provisions for primary impressed by the work of a local partnership, the children and for secondary education. One commissioned body and young people’s hearing services group. It contains providing services is based at Red Oaks primary school, not only professionals from education, health and social while the secondary provision is based at the Ridgeway services but members of the voluntary sector, and it is school. I know that school very well from my days as a led by parents. When organisations are led by parents governor, and from my many visits to the special resource and service users, services, rather than being developed provision for hearing-impaired pupils. I pay warm tribute in a way that is remote from users, are much more to the staff, pupils and parents who are involved in focused on the needs of users and their families. Moreover, those two facilities, and also to the outreach work done keeping provision local is good for local authorities, for by both facilities in the wider educational community in which out-of-borough provision can be significantly the borough. The budget in Swindon for special provision more costly. That is a good local example of money and outreach services is just over £900,000, which is being spent wisely, in a way that helps to integrate spent on interventions that allow young people with services and maximises the advantages for young people hearing loss to integrate properly with others, and to with hearing loss. have the opportunities that children who have hearing There is much that I could say about the progress of take for granted. the Bill. My hon. Friend the Minister and I continue to Over the last year, the local authority has been working engage in a dialogue about the need to ensure that, with Isambard secondary and Red Oaks primary schools when necessary, parents and families of young people to plan for better British sign language provision at with hearing loss and other special needs have a clear secondary level. With the help of the National Deaf point of redress rather than ending up in a convoluted, Children’s Society—which provided a consultant for labyrinthine system of appeal. I know that he is listening the local authority—and funds from the local schools very carefully to those observations, and I hope that forum, the steering group is now training two cohorts of when the Bill comes back to this place both the Bill and school staff on a BSL level 1 course. the code of practice, which has already been improved British sign language is proving very popular and from its original draft, will be truly a fresh start and a successful in my area. It is being used not only by new dawn for children with hearing loss. children with hearing difficulties, but by their peers who have hearing. What a great way of not just educating 4.30 pm young people with hearing about the challenges faced by young people with hearing loss, but increasing the Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I will be very confidence of the latter and helping to ensure that they brief so that the other Members trying to speak and the are, and are seen to be, equally valued by their peers. We Minister replying to the debate can contribute. hear a great deal about second languages. I am a Welshman, First, I want to put on record my—and, I am sure, and Welsh is my second language: it was very much part everybody else’s—thanks to the Backbench Business of my upbringing. Why should BSL not be a second Committee for choosing the subject of today’s debate. language for children with hearing? This emphasises the importance of having a BBC that The hearing support team in Swindon have an impressive can enable a motion such as this to take place and I and useful set of web-based support tools, which are hope the House will approve of it. Under the old system being used regularly by schools and families in the area it might have taken months and months of lobbying to and are helping to improve educational outcomes. In get any debate in Government time on this kind of the last year, £15,000 of additional funds have been issue, apart from the lottery of trying to get an Adjournment provided for BSL training courses which are available debate. not only to staff, but to family members and members I thank the right hon. Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm of the wider community. What an excellent example of Bruce) for what he said, and I am sorry I missed the first extending the reach of BSL. few minutes of his contribution. I also want to put on 983 Deaf Children and Young People17 OCTOBER 2013 Deaf Children and Young People 984

[Jeremy Corbyn] We need to ensure that there is an acceptance that deafness is something that people can cope with if they record my thanks to the campaign group Disability have adequate support. If they are just ignored and Action in Islington for the work it does for deaf people forgotten as children, they end up having a much less and people with disabilities across the borough. It often fulfilling and less useful life than they could otherwise campaigns on getting signers for sign language, and it have. So I just hope that this motion is agreed, that the can be very expensive to get someone in to do signed Government accept that it is important and that, in translation. That is an area that needs to be looked at. I return, local authorities fulfil their basic obligation to do not have an easy answer, but it is a complication. ensure that every child gets the best possible education Other Members have mentioned the excellent campaign and the best possible treatment to deal with whatever briefing from NDCS, which works for children with condition they happen to be suffering from at the time profound deafness and hearing issues. My constituent they enter school. Jon Barnes works for that campaign and he has been extremely helpful in highlighting these issues. 4.35 pm The hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) raised Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): the problem of identifying children with hearing issues, It is a great pleasure to follow the thoughtful contribution and other Members talked about deaf children not of the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). being picked up in school by the teachers, with their It is always a great pleasure to follow him, not least parents either being unaware of the issue or not wanting because he is my MP for four days a week. I am pleased to draw attention to it. Such children can gradually fall to have the opportunity to contribute to this important ever further behind their cohort group in school and debate, and I congratulate my right hon. Friend the eventually become educational under-achievers, and all Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce) on securing it sorts of other things follow from that. Ofsted inspections and on all the work he has done throughout his time as could look carefully at what is done in all schools to chair of the all-party group on deafness. identify children with hearing difficulties. I know it sounds odd that we are even saying that, but it is actually Earlier this year, I hosted a visit to Westminster by perfectly possible for a child in a class of 30 children to the National Deaf Children’s Society listening bus. Children be forgotten or ignored because they might be able to from the Frank Barnes school for deaf children and copy what others do where written answers are involved others had the opportunity to meet a number of MPs to and have some minor level of hearing that enables them talk about their experiences of growing up deaf and the just about to cope. We need to ensure that all children difference that extra specialist help has made to them. are properly tested on their hearing abilities from the By all accounts, colleagues who attended were inspired very beginning, and the Ofsted inspection could help to by what they heard. As a former chair of governors at do that. the school, I know that it has been a steadfast supporter The figure that 75% of deaf children are not statemented of the NDCS’s “Stolen Futures” campaign, which has is an interesting one, and the figure that 40% of those prompted today’s debate. I still have contact with the who suffer from profound deafness as children end up school, and I know that the teaching staff passionately with mental health problems highlights how important believe that we should have high expectations of deaf it is to have the identification at a very early stage. children’s social, emotional and academic development, I know local authorities are up against it at the and that effective communication, praise, celebration of present time. I have just come from a meeting with the success, and quality teaching and learning enables children new leader of my local authority, Richard Watts, and he to reach their full potential. We have heard that message was explaining the horrendous problems it is facing in from a number of hon. Members today, and it is different funding our current services. Islington is doing its very from the one that deaf children were receiving some best to ensure that all children get a very good education, decades ago. but in these circumstances it is very easy to see how in Ofsted has repeatedly identified Frank Barnes school some local authorities the needs of a relatively small as being outstanding, and I know that the head teacher, group of children will be forgotten or ignored, or the Karen Simpson, who is with us in the Gallery today, money will simply be spent on something else for which and her staff work tirelessly to ensure that deaf pupils somebody is able to shout louder and push harder for receive the specialist support they need. We all know the funding. Therefore, inspection and the protection that local councils need to target funding at the most and ring-fencing of the funds available for children with vulnerable children who require the most support, including profound deafness are very important indeed. deaf children. Correctly, local authorities have a statutory The last point I wish to make is that if we ignore and duty to identify children’s special educational needs and do not provide sufficient support for children who to provide the services to meet them. However, the suffer from this condition, their health will suffer and NDCS’s report reveals that many deaf children—perhaps they will become increasingly dependent and less able the majority of them—are not statemented. Not only is to contribute to wider society. As a result, we all suffer, that a matter of regret, but it should cause grave concern because we will spend money on children who ought to to Members of this House because it means that the be able to achieve a great deal in school and on adults educational potential of those children is simply not who ought to be able to achieve a great deal in life, but being realised in the way it should. they end up unemployed and dependent when they The Government have, of course, taken action. They could be making an enormous positive contribution to ensure that local authorities can retain funding for society. It is very wasteful not to identify the needs in specialist education support services for deaf children the first place and to use all the available technology to as part of the high needs block. However, that does not improve communication and help people. Sign language prevent local authorities from reducing funding overall and its teaching are very important vehicles for that. for those services and, as we now know from the NDCS 985 Deaf Children and Young People17 OCTOBER 2013 Deaf Children and Young People 986 report, many of them appear either to be doing that or supporting deaf children and their families and I know threatening to do it. My own county council in Lincolnshire that the Department for Education recognises that. takes a much more satisfactory line. We are protecting Many parents, teachers and other professionals—I now and even increasing funding for services for deaf children, add my voice to theirs—are concerned by the anomaly and I have to say that it is very disappointing that other that schools are inspected by Ofsted but education local authorities are not demonstrating the same wisdom. services are not. Any cuts take place in a context in which too many We must ask ourselves why, in 2013, a parent of a deaf children are already underachieving, as the House deaf child at a school such as Frank Barnes can be has heard, and are simply not getting the support they confident that their child is getting a good education need. I know that many colleagues will agree with me because the school has been inspected, but a parent of a that the Minister needs to send a strong signal to all deaf child in a nearby mainstream school cannot? The local authorities that the money that is intended for Government must look at that anomaly and fix it, and I special educational needs should be used for those hope to hear from the Minister that the Government needs. are considering requiring Ofsted to inspect all educational One solution to the general problem might well be to services for deaf children. see what more could be done on a regional basis, At the same time, schools also need more guidance particularly given the current economic climate. I would on progression trajectories for deaf children and be interested to hear the Minister’s thoughts on that. how they differ between mainstream and specialist Deafness is a low-incidence disability and the complex schools. In the past, special schools for the deaf have needs of deaf children are not something that many requested comparative data reports, similar to reports local authorities, particularly smaller authorities, appear that were previously produced under the performance able to address on their own. The available research, to and assessment—PANDA—system to support the which the NDCS has drawn attention, is pretty damning. benchmarking of pupil attainment and other measures. Many local authorities employ two or fewer visiting There is currently no way of comparing the performances teachers of the deaf, and it is impossible to see how such of SEN schools, as the direct comparison of data has small teams can provide the specialist support needed apparently stopped, and that cannot help special schools by all the deaf children and their families in those areas. to make progress. We are, of course, as the hon. Member for Poplar and Ofsted says, as I understand it, that it is unable to Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) mentioned, too often talking provide the data because of the challenges of categorising about families who cannot or who are not in a position pupils who are deaf or those with special educational to fight the system. Sometimes they come to us to do it needs, but it fails to suggest how, without reliable data, for them, but they are often disadvantaged families and professionals can assess how well deaf children are doing we should be doing everything we can to help their or how, for that matter, local authorities can properly equally disadvantaged children. commission services. I have spoken about Frank Barnes, which is one of Without proper data on deafness, as on all special the few schools in the country that provides a bilingual needs, local authorities cannot plan ahead and cannot approach to teaching where deaf children learn sign know what they have to commission for the future. The language and English together. That is critical, because, point has, I know, been stressed by the Department for as I pointed out in an intervention on my right hon. Education in the draft special educational needs code Friend the Member for Gordon, all the research in this of practice, recently published for consultation, but area tells us that communication in the early years, more can be done. For example, as my hon. Friend the however it is achieved, is critical for life outcomes. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) said, the Schools such as Frank Barnes therefore have an important school census captures only about two thirds of deaf role to play as centres of excellence and more should children, as they are only identified if they have been perhaps be done both to support them and to use the formally assessed as having a special educational need. I resources which they offer to other schools in their hope that the Department will wish to look into whether areas. Specialist schools across the country have the that can be improved by looking at what data are scope to innovate in teaching, but that is too often not required from schools in the census. the case in mainstream education, where there is so Those who know more about these things than I do much focus on inclusion—inclusion that can too often, also tell me that part of the problem with getting for deaf children, become exclusionary. accurate data is that even now there are no agreed For my part, I think the Government could considerably definitions to help identify which children are deaf. I improve provision by encouraging local authorities to have to say to the Minister that that is not an acceptable work together to commission services on a regional state of affairs. The Government must work, as my basis and to work with centres of excellence such as right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon said, with Frank Barnes. Some authorities have perhaps already professional bodies to agree on suitable definitions to recognised that, but others have yet to do so, presumably enable data to be collected more effectively. because they lack the necessary expertise in dealing In the time available, let me come to specialist teaching. with the education of deaf children to realise that it is I have already noted that the high needs block within necessary. I want to hear from the Minister the the dedicated schools grant for local authorities will Government’s views on whether any steps can be taken include funding for specialist support services, including to encourage the regional commissioning of services for peripatetic teachers of the deaf, and that is no doubt to low-incidence special needs, and for deafness in particular. be welcomed. However, as my hon. Friend the Member The House has already heard something about the for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) noted inspection regime and the recommendations of the in an intervention, around 80% of teachers of the deaf NDCS. Teachers of the deaf play an important role in are now over the age of 50. This is at a time when the 987 Deaf Children and Young People17 OCTOBER 2013 Deaf Children and Young People 988

[Stephen Phillips] so, I will endeavour to write to hon. Members to make sure that they have a full response to the questions and number of training departments appears to be reducing. points that they have raised. The Minister and the Department therefore need to The Government are clear that the most important think now about succession planning for teachers of the service for all children and young people is high-quality deaf, because action must be taken to maintain specialism teaching. That is why we have ensured that funding is funding and to give more support for, for example, protected, maintaining the amount per pupil at the specialist masters degrees, including funding for schools same cash level this year as last year. In this context, a to provide cover while teachers study. number of hon. Members rightly raised concerns about Let me end by saying that, although there is still the attainment gap between deaf children and their much to be done, the future is much rosier than it once peers. That is a key indicator of whether deaf children looked. Lengthy battles like the one I had to fight to are receiving high-quality teaching. keep Frank Barnes open because the previous Government Although we must see further progress in this area, had formulated the law so that special schools closed, we should recognise the enormous progress that has look as though they are now history.Good local authorities, been made so far. In 2011-12, 71% of deaf children like mine in Lincolnshire, understand much better the achieved five or more A* to C grades at GCSE compared issues that surround deaf education and the need to with just 43% in 2007-08. For non-SEN pupils, the deploy appropriate resources. figures are 90% and 75% respectively. Over that period, This debate and the NDCS report reveal, however, deaf pupils progressed at approximately twice the rate that although things are perhaps rosier, they are simply of their peers, closing the attainment gap significantly—a not perfect. So the Government need to act, and to act testament to the pupils themselves, as well as to the now. It is worth doing so not merely because deaf work of sensory support services across the country. children are children just like any others—entitled to Improvements in teaching practice and technological the best education and the best start in life that we can advances mean that deaf children are now far more give them—but because the costs to other services in the likely to achieve their potential than five years ago. long term are much reduced by good early intervention My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and that improves life chances. Helping deaf children to Shoreham (Tim Loughton) rightly raised concerns about learn and communicate makes their lives much easier; it the slight decline in good GCSE passes over the past means that they are more likely to find employment; it year. We must, of course, be alert to that, but it is means that they are less likely to develop mental health important to note that progress in those subjects has problems due to feelings of alienation from a society of also increased markedly over the past four years: 37% of which they are, after all, part. The case made by the deaf pupils now achieve that standard, compared to NDCS in its report, as reflected in the motion before 28% in 2007-08. However, that is still not good enough. the House, is unanswerable. It is one that I respectfully Clearly, we all want to see progress continue. We are suggest that the Minister must listen to. committed to improving the training that teachers and school leaders receive to help them identify where pupils 4.47 pm with hearing loss face barriers to learning and to offer The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education appropriate support, an issued raised by my hon. Friend (Mr Edward Timpson): I congratulate my right hon. the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) and by the hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce) Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow on securing this important and well-informed debate. I (Mr McCann), who speaks with such authority, based take this opportunity, as others have done, to thank him on his own personal experiences. for his dedication and commitment as founder and The National Scholarship Fund provides funding of chair of the all-party parliamentary group on deafness up to £3,500 for teachers’ postgraduate qualifications and for his assiduous campaigning for the recognition and training, including specialist training for teachers of British sign language. I know from attending and of the deaf. Funding of £2,000 is available to support speaking at the Signature conference that he chaired teaching assistants and support staff to improve their last year how his inspiring work and unstinting efforts skills in SEN. Some 600 teachers have achieved or are have led to a growing recognition of the support required working towards a qualification related to SEN and a to help deaf children and young people achieve their further 500 have applied for the current funding round. potential. We have also worked with the NDCS to update and I would also like to recognise the tireless work that increase schools’ access to information on deaf-friendly the National Deaf Children’s Society does to support teaching and on specific issues such as managing the deaf children and their families. It manages to balance transition to secondary school and teaching phonics for working with my Department on projects such as I-Sign pupils with a hearing impairment. As we reform the with powerful campaigning to hold Government both SEN system we will work with the National Sensory local and national to account. The 51,000 signatures Impairment Partnership—NatSIP—to provide advice received in support of holding this debate are testament and information to schools on effective support for deaf to this campaigning, and to the importance of getting pupils. support for special educational needs right. As well as taking steps to improve the quality of A whole number of pertinent points and issues have education, we are taking significant steps to secure been raised by hon. Members from all parties about access to it for deaf children and others with disabilities attainment, funding, access, support, data, inspection and SEN. Under the Equalities Act 2010, schools and and the wider special educational need reforms. In the other education providers must make reasonable short time that I have, I will do my best to address as adjustments for disabled children and young people to many of those points as possible, but where I fail to do alleviate any substantial disadvantage they experience 989 Deaf Children and Young People17 OCTOBER 2013 Deaf Children and Young People 990 because of their disability, and they must not discriminate children and to access tools and information on the against them. If, after those adjustments have been most effective approaches. That includes the £1.1 million made, children and young people need special educational we have given to NatSIP to carry out a benchmarking provision or specialist services, the duties that schools, exercise. local authorities and others have in relation to special My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona educational needs come into play. The Children and Bruce) and others mentioned the importance of early Families Bill, which includes our reforms to this area, is support. I hope that they will be pleased to hear that we currently being debated in the other place. I shall say have also funded the development of an early support more about those changes a little later. guide for parents of deaf children and the I-Sign project The NDCS is concerned that, as things stand, services to develop a family sign language programme. We are for deaf children risk being undermined by cuts. We continuing to fund the I-Sign consortium to build on have heard some examples of that this afternoon. I the learning from that project and improve the availability want to reassure the House that we have ensured that all of sign language support for parents and families. local authorities have as much funding for SEN in As the NDCS has set out, most deaf children attend 2013-14 as they had in 2012-13. The NDCS acknowledges mainstream schools, some with additional specialist that the Government have protected funding for vulnerable units offering support on site. Assessments on how well learners. Local authorities decide what SEN services to those schools perform will be made as part of Ofsted’s provide for children and young people, including services school inspection regime. The new Ofsted inspection for deaf children, and how much to spend on them, frameworks, introduced in September 2012, place a from the funding that we supply. clear emphasis on meeting the needs of disabled pupils The services that local authorities typically provide, and pupils with SEN and considering the quality of either directly or by commissioning other providers, teaching and the progress made by those pupils. include services for visual, hearing and physical impairment; I know that the NDCS and Members are calling for specific learning difficulties; speech, language and an alternative approach in which Ofsted would inspect communication; profound and severe learning difficulties; the local authority services that work with schools to and autism. Local authorities are reporting that they support deaf pupils, and there is some initial appeal in are spending no less on their SEN services this year that, but the same argument could be made for pupils than they spent last year. Through their local funding with autism, speech and language needs or dyslexia. formula, they also include in delegated schools budgets However, I understand that this is part of a wider a clear amount of funding intended to meet the needs question about the inspection of the reformed SEN of pupils with additional needs, including those with system, and I expect it to continue to be discussed as the SEN or disabilities. Special schools and other schools Children and Families Bill progresses. with special units often use their budgets to develop Aside from the role that Ofsted could play, I want to particular specialist services, including those for pupils stress that the SEN reforms will preserve and enhance with hearing impairments. I have seen that for myself in legal protections for families who want to challenge Springfield special school in Crewe in my constituency. councils through their involvement in determining local Where necessary, schools receive extra top-up funding provisions. The two deaf young people who are directly from their local authority for the additional support advising my Department on our SEN reforms have costs of pupils with the greatest needs. made it clear that they want to see reforms which We are committed to ensuring that the needs of provide legal protections; establish a better system for children with SEN are met. We have been clear with identifying need and commissioning services across local authorities—I re-emphasis the point now—that education, health and social care; ensure that the services they should prioritise vital front-line services for vulnerable provided match local needs as accurately as possible; children. However, we should not forget that the current and ensure that families do not have to battle to get financial climate, as Members have acknowledged today, those services. That is what our reforms are intended means that everyone in Government, both local and to do. national, has to make tough decisions to ensure that the I want to leave a few moments for my right hon. limited resources are spent most effectively. Friend the Member for Gordon to close the debate. It is We know that it can be challenging for local authorities clear that this has been a thoughtful, sincere and passionate to provide services for young people whose needs are debate that has provided us all with an opportunity not less common, so we are encouraging them to work only to celebrate excellence where it exists, including in together on such provision. I heard the point my hon. Swindon, but to challenge and question what more and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North could be done to ensure that deaf children and young Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) made about regional people get the right support at the right time so that commissioning, and I will certainly look at that as part they can flourish and thrive. I will take away the of the work we are doing and the reforms we are many excellent points and suggestions made by hon. undertaking. Where services have to be changed, that Members, particularly my right hon. Friend, and consider should be done with a careful assessment of the impact them carefully as our reforms move closer towards on families, and those assessments should involve the implementation. The Government’s message is clear: we families. share his ambition and desire to give deaf children the With regard to specialist support, local authorities best possible start in life and will continue to work with support parents of deaf children to communicate with him in that shared endeavour. them through teachers of the deaf and sensory support Sir Malcolm Bruce rose— services. The Department for Education is working with voluntary and community groups to enable local Mr Speaker: Order. If I am to put the Question areas to benchmark the support they provide to deaf before the motion lapses, I need to do so at 4.59 pm. 991 Deaf Children and Young People 17 OCTOBER 2013 992

4.58 pm Daniel Pelka Sir Malcolm Bruce: I thank the Minister for his Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House constructive and courteous response and for undertaking do now adjourn.—(John Penrose.) to follow up on those points in detail. I thank all Members who have contributed to this well-informed 5pm debate. The Minister has responded to the point about Ofsted, but there is a worry that although SEN might Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): be maintained, switches could take place that disadvantage Let me say, Mr Speaker, how graced we are by your deaf people. We want there to be special attention to again being in the Chair for our debate. ensure that deaf children are not disadvantaged. I take This is a very important debate. I hope that one or the point about other categories, but I think that we are two other Members who have an interest, apart from entitled at least to ask for a process by which that can be the Minister, to whom I spoke two weeks ago, will find done. it beneficial. I labelled it “The Lessons of Daniel Pelka On the regional issue, which was also a good point, I in Coventry”, which happens to be my own constituency. note that in Sweden schools for the deaf are provided in It is a horrid shock to MPs who have never had anything every region and parents have the right to choose whether like this happen in their constituency before but have to they send their children to a special school or a mainstream get to grips with it as part of the job. As so much is one. I believe that is something we should address. taking place at the moment around the discussion groups, We have had a very good debate. The Minister is very this debate is a unique opportunity for us, as a small engaged in the subject and we look forward to working group in the House, to see what might be done and what with him. I also thank the hon. Member for Alyn and might be improved. One thing is for sure: there has been Deeside (Mark Tami) for his constructive comments. report after report, study after study, and still we get This is something that we can do together, and with real these dreadful incidents from time to time, all too commitment we can improve the quality of life for all frequently. deaf children. Some people say to me, “It will always happen—don’t Question put and agreed to. worry about it. It’s bound to happen and you can’t stop it.” I find that repugnant. I cannot believe that Daniel Resolved, Pelka, whose home was visited 27 times following domestic That this House recognises the importance of services for deaf violence incidents, who turned up at school getting children and young people and acknowledges the wide attainment thinner and thinner, who was showing bruises and was gap; further recognises that communications support for deaf clearly being maltreated in every other respect, needed children and their parents is vital for social development and educational progress; acknowledges that the Government has to die. I cannot accept it; it seems ludicrous to me. We stated there is an expectation that funding for vulnerable learners have to find a much better way of dealing with the is protected, but is concerned about recent evidence uncovered by situation in an improved way, step by step; I am not the National Deaf Children’s Society which shows that in 2013-14 saying that it can all be put right at once. I want to put over a third of local authorities plan to cut education services for forward four points for consideration, if not action. deaf children; urges the Government to take steps to hold local authorities to account and support parents in doing so, including I very much thank my hon. Friend the Member for by asking Ofsted to inspect these vital services, improving access Stockport (Ann Coffey), who is a great expert in this to communication support including sign language, and strengthening area, and has done a tremendous amount and mounted the Children and Families Bill currently before Parliament; and campaign after campaign on it, for suggesting that my further urges the Government to deliver and implement reform of focus in terms of the Coventry report—she had read special educational needs. before I did, typically—should be on the fact that nobody spoke to the child. The poor child was going to school starving, being beaten up, and in the end clubbed and killed, and nobody tried to speak to him. One of the answers given is that he was Polish. Well, there are Polish-speaking people we could draw on, as we saw the other night in Wembley—although they are not exactly the experts that we would want for that. The first thing we have to do is to make it very clear that in any one of these cases where there is a failure to speak to the child, consequences should follow. Nobody wants witch hunts or people being sacked, but they clearly cannot follow the basic instructions for getting into a dialogue with the child, who admittedly may be too young.

Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr Robinson: I am delighted to do so.

Ann Coffey: I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this very important debate. We all want to see life made better for some of our most abused children. A few weeks ago I visited an organisation called Triangle in 993 Daniel Pelka17 OCTOBER 2013 Daniel Pelka 994

Brighton, which is strongly committed to helping children you think that’s feeble, it was 700 pages when I got it.” who have been harmed and abused to communicate Think of all the time, effort, pen-pushing and talking their experiences, and I saw the extraordinary work that that is going on, and yet we cannot find a means of it does using drawings. Does my hon. Friend agree that getting through to a young kid because he speaks a it is very important that that kind of expertise is made different language. It does not make any sense at all. available throughout the United Kingdom so that we Secondly—I owe a good deal to my hon. Friend the can better help children to communicate their experiences Member for Stockport for this point, too—the lines of and intervene in their lives before they are abused and responsibility have to be much clearer. Who is responsible? killed? I thank the well meaning and extremely professional National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children Mr Robinson: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. and half a dozen other agencies, as well as probably a Indeed, it might have been plagiarism—I hope that is dozen people from other constituencies who have been, not an inappropriate word—but that was another idea I or fear they will be, affected by this issue, for their was going to take from her. We should have not one response to tonight’s debate. The first recommendation huge centre but various centres in which creative means in the NSPCC’s briefing paper is: of communicating with difficult children are imaginatively “Front-line agencies must see and listen to the child”. developed and explored. The day before Daniel Pelka That is sensible and we all agree with it, but it then died, a teacher was found in another school in Coventry— states in a green box: there are loads of them—to talk to him. She happened to be Polish and was able to speak the language, but “All notifications of domestic abuse should be sent to a Multi- Agency Safeguarding Hub (MASH)”. that is not good enough. It is pathetic that things got to that stage. What sort of line of communication is that? What it amounts to is a mishmash. We see that more and more. I agree with my hon. Friend, so let us make that our No.1 point: children must be talked to and we should It is not that the agencies are not talking to each develop a whole area of useful specialisations, as opposed other. They probably are not as good at communicating to a load of paper that gets churned out continually. with each other as they should be and improvement is Children could tell us what their parents look like by necessary, but the problem is that we do not know who using diagrams. We might start to learn something and is responsible. The NSPCC says that a lead is needed. it could tell quite a story. It is not a lead that is needed, but somebody who is responsible for the case and who knows that he is responsible for it. I am sorry, I should have said “he or Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): she”, because the only person who had the guts to put a The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about the need foot in the door and leave it there was a female youth to talk to the child. The situation was even worse in this community officer, who did a fantastic job and found case, because I gather that they relied on another child out that the abuse was going on. in the family to communicate with him, which obviously is not appropriate. MASH just about sums up what is wrong. What we need is clearer lines of communication. There is a big issue of social workers being fobbed off at the door. When social workers are dealing with Tim Loughton: I am loth to intervene again in case communities that are not naturally fluent in English, we the hon. Gentleman does not get on to his other points, need to make sure that they have people alongside them but I must say that the MASH is the way to go. It allows who can communicate in the relevant language so that all the different agencies to communicate with each they are not fobbed off by communication difficulties, other better because they sit next to each other in the let alone by all the problems involved in crossing the same room. In a relatively short period of time, all the threshold and finding out exactly what is going on. This relevant people can come together and swap information. is a real problem for some of the incoming communities, Importantly, somebody then picks up the ball and acts particularly those from eastern Europe. on what has been said. That is the responsible person to whom the hon. Gentleman rightly refers. It is happening Mr Robinson: Yes, that is a problem. Let us think more effectively in MASHs than it has done before. creatively and commonsensically about how we can That is why most London authorities and most other deal with it. It will not be enough to train a whole load authorities in the country are going that way. It is the of interpreters to become experts in Polish, arts and waytogo. crafts and other languages and grammars. We need the same sort of practical thinking as inventive mothers Mr Robinson: I am delighted to hear that and I wish who work part time and know how to do things with the hon. Gentleman well with it. I hope that it works. their kids. However, a MASH can work only if at the end of all the I do not want to be unkind to the Minister, because talking—I accept that that has to happen, because there he inherited the situation and was gracious and courteous is no other way of getting everybody to know what they enough to agree to meet me on the afternoon the case need to know—there is a clear line of responsibility. review was published, but at that meeting he said, “I Somebody has to write the minutes, somebody has to think we’re going to make a big difference now,” and say what will be done and there must be a clearly produced a 74-page document full of all sorts of jargon. identifiable responsible person or group of people who The Minister should not worry, because I will say are charged with carrying it through. Otherwise, it will something else to qualify my comments in a moment. not happen. The document was statutory guidance, which is an The MASH is a committee and committees do not do oxymoron—it is either statutory or it is guidance; it anything. It serves the useful purpose of bringing people cannot be both. The Minister said, “Well, Geoffrey, if together so that they can talk and exchange the information 995 Daniel Pelka17 OCTOBER 2013 Daniel Pelka 996

[Mr Robinson] so Ann Lucas wrote to me and asked whether I would relay this message to the House tonight. She is an that they need to know about. What is missing from the outstanding council leader who has been in the job system is a clear way of saying at the end of the meeting about six months. She was distraught to find that she what the conclusions and recommendations are. Those had inherited this case, and she went along with a must be very short. A person or group of people—a traditional conventional review. She said that lead, or whatever you want to call them—must then be “we need a national debate around safeguarding issues— responsible for carrying out those recommendations. that is obvious— That was certainly what was missing in Coventry. “with the setting up of a Commons Select Committee to take There was meeting after meeting. Everybody was grouped evidence from all concerned. From politicians, from front-line together and the information was being exchanged. workers, from all agencies, social workers, the police, health However, when the dreadful news broke, I asked who agencies—including GPs, hospitals, health visitors and schools. was actually responsible. The reply was that we were all And very importantly, from experts working with Domestic Violence”, responsible. If we are all responsible, no one is. We must in which she is an expert. not be afraid of allocating responsibilities and ensuring I do not know whether that is a runner, but I am clear that they are carried out. If they are not, retraining is that I do not see it ever working—I have not left the always a good option. People do not have to be sacked. hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham time to We are not like that on this side of the House. However, add his comprehensive view. We need a more forensic people in the country cannot accept that the head of the direct attack. For example, there were four or five department, Colin Green, resigned a few days or weeks points at which Daniel Pelka could have been saved. before the report came out and was appointed to exactly That is clear. We need a mechanism so that when such a the same position elsewhere. That was wrong. What sort point is reached—I guess the people doing it did not of confidence does that provide? know—or anything like that, the man at the top should That point reminds me of another Adjournment be informed. We need a mechanism to intervene and debate that I secured about a distinguished surgeon at bring things to a head, and in a way it is about management. Walsgrave who was almost sacked because he had reported I hope those points will have helped the Minister in his somebody else. It turned out that the chief executive of reply. the hospital was not up to the job—there were a whole series of these cases—and all six neighbouring MPs served by that hospital called for his resignation. He 5.19 pm was sacked—well, that was what it was called, but The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education within six months he was back in charge at Birmingham (Mr Edward Timpson): I congratulate the hon. Member Heartlands hospital. It is unbelievable what such a for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) on securing network of controls can do. this important, timely and serious debate. The tragic My next point will, I am sure, again be contentious case of Daniel Pelka is a stark reminder to us that we for the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham can and must do more to ensure the safety and well-being (Tim Loughton), and others who are a bit on the side of of our children. It was helpful to meet the hon. Gentleman the establishment, because it concerns the compositions recently to discuss the findings of the serious case of serious case reviews. Each area has its own chairman— review in Coventry and its implications. I welcome the that is all it has, actually—and lay members. When it opportunity to set out the steps that are being taken to comes to the inquiry, the chairman or chairwoman ensure that we fully understand what went wrong and brings in a rapporteur, a writer of the report, and both why, and ensure that any individual and collective failures she and he know each other—I am not suggesting that are identified and addressed. is wrong; it could sometimes be very helpful—and have National accountability for child protection rests squarely written many of these reports in the past, either together with the Department for Education, working closely or separately. Already in my book that does not seem with other Departments. However, all of us have a part quite right. It is not independent, and the essence of the to play in keeping our children safe. In March 2013, we serious case review is that it must be seen to be independent. published revised statutory guidance—“Working Together My last point—I have left plenty of time for the to Safeguard Children”. I was pleased the hon. Gentleman Minister—concerns Ann Lucas, whom I begged to carry mentioned the scything of the original document from out an independent report. “Why should I be the only 700 pages to just over 70, which was quite a feat in one to put Coventry through that when nobody else has anybody’s language. The guidance clearly states that ever done it?”—she did not say that, but that was what I anyone concerned about a child’s welfare should bring felt she felt. That would have meant a completely new it to the attention of the relevant authorities. board, fresh blood, with people who did not know the It is also clear that the focus of our attention must be situation in Coventry or the chair of the Coventry on the needs of individual children rather than on the group, and who had a completely dispassionate view. interests of adults. The serious case review by the Coventry I do not think anybody would agree any longer with safeguarding children board showed that, although many the police investigating the police. Why should the civil professionals were concerned about Daniel, they did servants who had administered the case in question be not speak to him or focus efficiently on either his those who were the team supporting the independent experiences or his needs. Our statutory guidance is clear chair—she was independent—and the so-called appointed that, if someone is concerned about the safety of a independent rapporteur, or reporter? He wrote the report child, they should refer them to the local authority and one could see he is a professional. Every perfect children’s social care and ensure that they take into piece of civil service-ese was in it; it could not be account the wishes and feelings of the child. That is faulted. However, out of that comes nothing so far, and abundantly clear and should happen in every case but, 997 Daniel Pelka17 OCTOBER 2013 Daniel Pelka 998 too often, Daniel was not at the heart of the assessment made publicly available, which should give to the people process. His needs were completely overshadowed by of Coventry the confidence that the right actions have the perceived needs of his mother and her welfare. been taken in response to Daniel’s death and ensure I was pleased that the SCR was published swiftly and that everyone with a role in safeguarding children has without redaction—my hon. Friend the Member for the opportunity to reflect on their own practice. East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) has We will also consider whether the lessons from the argued for that practice for a long time. It is important analysis have national implications, something touched that reports are published in full so that the lessons are on by the hon. Gentleman. The Government remain transparent and can be learned. The report highlights focused on driving through our programme of reform of a number of basic practice failures, across a range of the child protection system, building on recommendations agencies, to share information, keep accurate records, from a wide range of reports and inquiries, including use those records appropriately, and carry out robust the Munro review, the Education Committee report and assessments of Daniel’s needs adequately. As the hon. Lord Carlile’s report into the Edlington case. I remind Gentleman has said, there were numerous opportunities the hon. Gentleman, in response to the point he made to intervene and examples of concerned professionals towards the end of his contribution, that there has been who wanted to do the right thing, but no decisive a recent inquiry by the Select Committee into child intervention was made. protection, which is being reopened to consider what The purpose of any serious case review is not only to progress has been made, and he might want to make his provide a retrospective description of what happened in views known to it. The lessons from Daniel Pelka’s the case; nor is it simply to apportion blame to individuals. tragic death, and those of Keanu Williams and Hamzah An SCR should provide a sound analysis of why the Khan, will add to that body of evidence. The Government incident happened and identify the issues on which are requiring the publication of serious case reviews for agencies need to act individually and collectively to the very reason that it enables national lessons to be improve services for children. The SCR in Daniel’s case learned. The National Society for the Prevention of begins that process, but I believe that Coventry needs to Cruelty to Children is helping to collate the analysis at a deepen the analysis to address why failings occurred. single point, so that social workers and other front-line practitioners can understand how they can benefit Mr Robinson: I intervene on the Minister to pay him from it. a compliment. There were five or six occasions when We want a child protection system where all children intervention should have happened, and he has asked in at risk of abuse or neglect are identified early, have his letter why it did not. There is not a word on that in timely and proportionate assessments of their individual the SCR, so I hope he gets some satisfactory answers. needs, and receive the right services at the right time. That is why we are fundamentally reforming the system Mr Timpson: The hon. Gentleman is right. Without to put the needs of individual children at its heart. We that type of analysis, we cannot be confident that the want a system that fits the needs of children and not the lessons have been learned. We need to be able to distinguish other way around. We have strengthened the framework between errors of practice and errors of judgment, and underpinning child protection by publishing the revised identify where there are systemic weaknesses. That is “Working Together to Safeguard Children” statutory why I have asked for that further work. guidance. It is clear that the needs of individual children, whatever their age, are paramount. That puts the needs As he knows, on 16 September, I wrote to Amy Weir, of children back at the heart of assessment processes by the independent chair of the Coventry safeguarding removing the requirement to have separate initial and children board—I should emphasise her independence core assessments. and the fact that the writer of the serious case review is appointed independently from the local authority—to Good practice is out there. We have had a discussion set out my concerns about the serious case review. I was about the merits of multi-agency safeguarding hubs. I clear that, unless we get to the bottom of why things have had the opportunity to visit some myself, and they happened, we will be unable to put the right solutions in are doing fantastic work in their co-location with different place. I have asked her to provide a time scale for agencies. They are sitting in the same room talking to carrying out a deeper analysis of that appalling case; each other, rather than communicating via computer or why basic information was not recorded properly both at a greater distance. That helps to bring about joint between and within agencies; why information needed responsibility. It is not a panacea, but it is one way of to protect Daniel was not shared between the relevant working more closely together to provide a better service. agencies; why four separate assessments by children’s We want social workers who are able to confidently social care fail to identify the risk to Daniel; and what identify, assess, decide and act on individual cases where oversight there was of those decisions. I have also children are at risk of abuse or neglect. We want social requested details of the actions that have already been workers who have a commitment to self-improvement taken to respond to the report’s findings, including the and are not afraid to challenge one another. We want support and training put in place for professionals managers who provide appropriate and timely support involved in the case and more widely and supervision to their staff. That is why we are seeking I met Ms Weir yesterday and she was able to provide a step change in the quality of the contribution that me with an update on the work that is taking place in those entering the profession can make. The Frontline response to the report’s recommendations. I was very programme is providing an innovative route into the clear with her, and I can reassure the hon. Gentleman profession for top graduates, and the Step Up to Social and other hon. Members that I will continue to pay Work programme is doing the same thing for high-calibre close attention to the evidence emerging from Coventry. career changers. We are introducing reforms to support The lessons identified by the deeper analysis will be better local and national leadership, which in turn 999 Daniel Pelka17 OCTOBER 2013 Daniel Pelka 1000

[Mr Timpson] It is this kind of innovative approach that is needed to bring about a fundamental shift in the quality of our should help to create a more confident profession. The child protection services. newly appointed first ever chief social worker for children I am enormously grateful for the support and concern and families, Isabelle Trowler, will provide leadership that the hon. Gentleman has given to this issue today. for the profession and help to drive improvement in He knows as well as I the challenge we still face to front-line practice. prevent such tragedies. I take the deaths of Daniel We want to see stronger leadership, accountability Pelka, Keanu Williams and Hamzah Khan as stark and learning in the system, and less variability in local reminders of the work we still have to do. As I said at authority safeguarding performance. From next month, the time of the publication of the serious case review, Ofsted will be using a reformed inspection framework this is as important as anything the Government do. that will bring child protection services for looked-after children and care leavers, and local authority fostering and adoption services, into a single inspection. We are 5.30 pm setting up an innovative arrangement in Doncaster to House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order run social care services independently from the council. No. 9(7)). 315WH 17 OCTOBER 2013 Coastguard (Maritime Incident 316WH Response Group) The proposals unleashed a storm of protest. There Westminster Hall was alarm about the potential loss of crucial local knowledge, particularly in parts of Wales and Scotland Thursday 17 October 2013 where local landmarks can have more than one name in different languages. Local knowledge includes awareness of place names, dialects, tides and currents, geography [MR ANDREW ROSINDELL in the Chair] and the volunteer rescuers available in the area for which the coastguard is responsible. Claims that such Coastguard (Maritime Incident local knowledge could be replaced by technology were Response Group) met with incredulity. [Relevant document: Sixth report of the Transport There was alarm, too, about the concept of daylight-only Committee, Coastguard, Emergency Towing Vessels and coastguard stations. Would it really be safe to hand over the Maritime Incident Response Group, HC 647, and the co-ordination of a major incident to new staff, perhaps Government Response, HC 1018.] hundreds of miles away, because it was time to finish work for the day and nightfall had come? Redundancy Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting plans unsettled staff, as did talk of redefining roles, be now adjourned.—(Stephen Hammond.) grades and terms and conditions. Many coastguards faced a choice between accepting a new role at a new 1.30 pm maritime operations centre in a different location or Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): leaving the service. I welcome the opportunity to serve under your In our original 2011 inquiry, we visited coastguards chairmanship, Mr Rosindell, and to debate the Select in Falmouth, the Clyde and Stornoway and spoke to Committee on Transport’s second report on the coastguard coastguards from many other co-ordination centres. We service since the 2010 election. I pay tribute to the shared many of their concerns about the original plans. nation’s coastguards—both professional staff and In particular, we asked the Government to reconsider volunteers—who provide an essential emergency service, introducing daylight-only co-ordination centres, because protecting life and limb at sea throughout the year in all of the difficulty of handing over rescues. We also highlighted weathers. concerns about the loss of local knowledge and the Last year, Her Majesty’s Coastguard dealt with limitations of technological alternatives. I will return to 2,859 incidents—a 23% increase on the previous year— that issue shortly. including rescuing swimmers, divers and people falling The Government published a revised plan in July off cliffs, cut off by tides and endangered by boat 2011, which took account of some of our concerns. failures. The changes are wide-ranging and involve the That plan is now being implemented, but disquiet remains. maritime rescue co-ordination centres, search and rescue There will be one maritime operations centre in Fareham, and the maritime incident response group, which deals backed up by a co-ordination centre in Dover and eight with firefighting and chemical hazards. I am concerned other co-ordination centres. Eight centres will close; about all those aspects of the service, and I know that Clyde, Yarmouth and Forth have already shut down. there are ongoing issues, in particular about arrangements The remaining centres will be open around the clock. for emergency towing vessels. The Government have abandoned the concept of daylight- Today, however, I will focus on changes to the maritime only centres, and I welcome their change of mind. rescue co-ordination centres, which handle calls for assistance and co-ordinate rescues. Reform has been Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) discussed for several years, and the current proposals (SNP): The hon. Lady is making a good speech, highlighting date back to 2010. The proposals raise major concerns, the Government’s indecisive “suck it and see, make it up which is why the Transport Committee has paid close as you go along” approach to maritime coastguard attention to them. We published our first report in 2011 stations in 2011. The same thing is happening to the and followed it up in 2012, and we are raising the issue emergency towing vessels. In the report’s conclusion, again here today. the Transport Committee asks the Government to explain In 2010 there were 18 centres spread around the UK how an emergency towing vessel stationed in the Northern coastline, of which the Government proposed to close Isles can serve the west coast effectively. Is that not a 10. Their work was to be taken over by the two new mirror image of what the hon. Lady outlined in respect 24-hour maritime operations centres in Aberdeen and of the coastguard stations? the Solent area. Five co-ordination centres would remain open during daylight hours only. Under those plans, the Mrs Ellman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his number of coastguards would fall from 596 to 370 by comments. He highlights a crucial issue causing major 2014, a reduction of 38%. concerns that have not yet been resolved. The main rationale for the changes was the claim that To return to coastguards and co-ordination centres, individual co-ordination centres were largely independent under the revised proposals, the number of professional of each other and that, as a result, the system as a whole coastguards will fall to 436. The new maritime operations lacked resilience. If a centre was affected by a power cut centre was due to be operational by April 2014. That or overwhelmed by work, we were told, other coastguard has now been delayed until September 2014. Co-ordination stations could do little to help. The proposed maritime centres at Solent, Portland, Brixham, Liverpool, Swansea operations centre would be able to deal with incidents and Thames are due to close after that. all around the country and would be able to allocate We published a second report on the revised proposals work to remaining co-ordination centres to iron out in December 2012, and we continue to receive deeply peaks and troughs in work load. disturbing information from coastguards about staffing 317WH Coastguard (Maritime Incident 17 OCTOBER 2013 Coastguard (Maritime Incident 318WH Response Group) Response Group) [Mrs Ellman] can be replaced by databases. Coastguards taking on new areas of responsibility will still be assessed on their and morale in the service. It is to those issues that I understanding of local factors, although it is hard to see now turn. The Committee accepted that there is a how this will apply to the coastguards in the new marine case for a national maritime operations centre to operations centre. Perhaps the Minister will explain manage particularly large or difficult incidents, which what importance he attaches to coastguards having could overwhelm an individual co-ordination centre or local knowledge and how it will work under the new two centres working together. However, we remain unclear system and be tested. about what coastguards at the national centre would do at times when such an emergency was not taking place. Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): I am Coastguards giving evidence to us said that they had no sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend—I sense that she idea how the new maritime operations centre and the might be concluding. Her Committee has obviously co-ordination centres would work together. done another thorough job in monitoring the good In their reply to our report, the Government spelled work of the shipping Minister and his officials under out in more detail what they saw as the main responsibilities her excellent leadership, but can she give us a sense of of the maritime operations centre, particularly in what progress she thinks has been made compared with co-ordinating the work of coastguards across the country. where we were last year and the year before? Is her The recent agreement on the roles and responsibilities Committee more worried about the situation? Is there of coastguards under the new system might also bring the same level of anxiety, or is she more reassured greater clarity in this area. Will the Minister explain because of what she has heard in the various examinations how the new system will work—not just during a major that her Committee has undertaken? incident, but at quieter times? Mrs Ellman: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments We heard strong criticism of the decision to close and for the excellent work that he did in a previous three maritime resource co-ordination centres before capacity. It is good to hear from him. I remain concerned the new system is in place. For example, Shetland about the situation. There is now more clarity about coastguards explained that they had to use their own what exactly is going to happen, but major questions time to gain local knowledge of parts of the northern remain. That is why I am pursuing them today. I hope Scotland coastline for which they would be responsible the Minister will be able to give reassuring answers. after the closure of the Forth station. There have been continuing concerns that some co-ordination centres Staffing and morale were both raised with the Committee are now severely overstretched. as significant problems. We heard concerns about the level of vacancies in the service, the proportion of We were told in March this year that, already, staffing coastguards on fixed-term contracts, and the loss of at Belfast co-ordination centre had been below the experienced staff. The coastguard service’s vacancy rate risk-assessed staffing level on 124 occasions out of 158 doubled between December 2010 and November 2012, shifts. At the same time, Yarmouth co-ordination centre, when it stood at 13.8%. In other words, nearly one in which has since closed, was moved to daylight-only seven posts in the service was vacant. Can the Minister operations because of staff shortages. It is testament to tell us what the current vacancy rate is? the professionalism of the service that the closures have been accommodated without major incident. Going back to the comments from my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse, I continue to It was widely believed that ministerial statements and receive representations from coastguards. These include Maritime and Coastguard Agency documents had given allegations of stress caused by understaffing, lack of a commitment that the maritime rescue co-ordination leave and unreliable communications equipment. The centres would not be closed until the new system was high level of vacancies puts strain on coastguards, who put in place. This was denied, but the language used by must work harder to fill the gaps. What assessment has the Minister’s predecessor in the House and some of the the Minister made of the high level of vacancies? Has documents published by the Maritime and Coastguard the level of sickness absence increased? Does the Agency back in 2011 were at best ambiguous. Department even monitor coastguards’ morale? What One key area of the dispute is the importance of local actions are management taking to help staff get through knowledge. Coastguards emphasise its importance in what is obviously a difficult and unsettling period of their work, and they are tested on their local situational change? knowledge. Knowing that a particular rock or headland Low morale and disillusionment with management has three names in two languages can help to ensure were reflected in all the evidence the Committee received that assistance reaches people in distress as quickly as from coastguards. We have received further correspondence possible. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency discounted that reinforces that since our report was published. For its significance, considering that local knowledge could example, we were told that the new contract offered to be stored electronically so that it could be used by any the coastguard coastguard based anywhere. Indeed, when we heard evidence from the chief executive of the Maritime and “increases the number of days worked, reduces the number of days off, reduces the annual hours leave, reduces the opportunity Coastguard Agency, he seemed to disregard the importance for leave, and reduces the pay by regrading the majority of the of critical local knowledge, which is about geography, older staff to a lower level of pay, capping the shift allowance at a tides and currents, language and dialect, and the availability low rate and removing allowances for shoes and telephone line of additional volunteer sources for rescue in the area rental—all in all, these changes are unworkable to existing staff concerned. and are surely a case for constructive dismissal”. Coastguards remain concerned about the issue. They We have also heard complaints from volunteer challenge whether the knowledge built up over many coastguards about the operation of the Maritime and years by experienced coastguards working in their areas Coastguard Agency. Again, long-standing volunteer 319WH Coastguard (Maritime Incident 17 OCTOBER 2013 Coastguard (Maritime Incident 320WH Response Group) Response Group) coastguards feel that they are no longer valued and Sadly, even now, it seems that we have not been able are subsequently leaving the service. I have received to communicate exactly how the coastguard service representations from my hon. Friend the Member for works and the fact that the people who make the Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) that nine out of rescues locally are the volunteers—the people of the 13 volunteer staff at the Walney Coastguard have resigned, community—who have local knowledge, as opposed to claiming they have been bullied by MCA staff. Will the people in the centres, who of course use their local there be an independent investigation into that? It is knowledge and other skills to deploy the right resources clearly a matter of grave concern. accordingly. When I learned that fact, it gave me more Our report concluded that the loss of experienced confidence. When I learned about the extra training coastguards was one of the most significant risks to the that was to be given and the extra equipment that was successful implementation of the Government’s to be provided, that gave me even more confidence that modernisation programme. Everything we have heard we were doing a lot more to support our volunteer since has confirmed that view. The Maritime and coastguard rescue officers on the front line. And thus it Coastguard Agency now has to manage another round has proved. I am confident in their abilities. I have met of MRCC closures and find sufficient qualified staff to them at Southwold on various occasions. I did not meet fill positions in the new maritime operations centre. them when they had been called into action, most This is a major challenge. Many experienced coastguards notably earlier in the summer when they worked closely may prefer to leave the service than move to Fareham to with the RNLI to rescue more than 50 people off the take on new roles. Will the Minister tell us when recruitment coast at Southwold, but they continue to have my full of MOC staff will begin and what mix of skill and support. experience he will want staff working there to have? I want to pick up a few specific points raised by the What assistance will be available to coastguards who hon. Lady in her report, and to say more about local wish to relocate to Fareham? understanding and resilience. I understand that several The coastguard reform programme will have been people have transferred from the Yarmouth station to stretched over five years when it finally comes to an end the Humber station, so the Government policy of keeping in 2015. That is five years of uncertainty and worry for one of two pairing centres open, and encouraging and coastguards about their jobs, pay, and terms and conditions. helping staff to move if they so wish, certainly appears My concern is that by the time the new system is to have happened in our case. That is useful because it operational, many experienced coastguards will have not only keeps those people in employment, but builds left, weakening an essential emergency service. I hope greater knowledge about the wider area that the centres that the Minister can demonstrate today that he is cover. actively trying to ensure that that does not happen. To step back and wear a non-constituency hat, there The coastguard service is about saving lives. It is is a lot to be said for trying to increase the resilience of staffed by dedicated people. It deserves the unequivocal our national network of information, because it does support of the Minister and the Maritime and Coastguard not take much—someone being off ill or whatever—for Agency. I hope the Minister can assure us today that he there suddenly to be gaps in knowledge. That is not is committed to securing the confidence of those who unique, dare I say it, to the coastguard system, but it is work in this essential service, so that the public’s safety one reason why many of our emergency services, such can continue to be protected. as the NHS or the police, put as much information as possible into a common format or database that other people can draw on. That does not mean that people 1.47 pm never speak to each other, but it is deliberately done to Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): It is a make services more resilient. great pleasure to contribute to this debate and to follow Will you allow me to stray slightly to illustrate the the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman). point, Mr Rosindell? An extreme example is that the She knows that I grew up in Liverpool. I lived in Care Quality Commission often picks up issues about Formby for a while, so I am familiar with Blundellsands, people relying on information being passed verbally in where the Liverpool station is based. hospitals, instead of their documenting it to provide There is no specific co-ordination centre in my extra safety for the patient. That is a real parallel to the constituency, but the stations of Yarmouth and Thames coastguard service. We should not get too hung up both serve the Suffolk coast, stretching from Felixstowe about local knowledge: of course it is important, but up to beyond Southwold. However, I have excellent people do not need to know every metre or yard of the volunteer coastguards. I have met the Lowestoft and coastline to be aware of the key problems in a given Southwold branch several times and I follow them on area. The areas off Southwold and near Felixstowe Twitter. They are very informative and they work closely ferry have particularly difficult currents, but that kind with the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. Such brave of knowledge should be assimilated by a broader range volunteers deserve our praise and thanks for the difficult of people, so that we are not reliant on a relatively small job that they do so willingly. group of coastguard co-ordinating officers in our Yarmouth When the issue erupted, thanks to the Government’s and Thames centres. proposals early on in the Parliament, MPs learned a lot I am reassured by the important point made by the about how such an important service works. Admittedly, Select Committee’s recommendation in paragraph 27, it took a lot of explaining to understand it, but I am one that of the MPs who, having learnt more about it and having “any work to develop and foster local knowledge should be made representations about aspects of concern in parts organised by…management, properly scheduled, and remunerated, of the country, ended up supporting the revised changes not left to coastguards to organise themselves when they are off that the Government came up with. duty.” 321WH Coastguard (Maritime Incident 17 OCTOBER 2013 Coastguard (Maritime Incident 322WH Response Group) Response Group) [Dr Thérèse Coffey] For the east coast, the figures are slightly better, but they are still worrying. From the closure of the Forth I fully agree that we have to build up such knowledge. I station in September 2012 to May 2013, Aberdeen was am also reassured by paragraph 36 of the Government understaffed 52% of the time. The only bright note is response, which mentions exercises, full pairing days, that its partner station at Shetland was hardly ever visits for staff, and visits and briefings as part of working understaffed. with the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. Those are important parts of on-the-job training, and the Select Mr MacNeil: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Committee makes the very fair point that people should highlighting those figures, which are in the Library. The not be expected to pick up such knowledge by themselves conclusion that I draw from them is that confidence in or by chance. Maritime and Coastguard Agency management is not what it should be. I lack confidence in it, as I think do Of course, the test will come with the big incident people in my community, due to the very figures that he that, thank God, has not happened yet—we hope it mentions. never does—and I appreciate people’s concerns about wanting resources to be deployed as quickly as possible Mr Reid: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the in such an incident. I am confident that more such community does not have confidence in the new system. centralisation, with a wider network of centres, but The seafaring community was very nervous about the without going from the former situation to having only closure of the Clyde station, particularly because of the two centres open 24/7, will provide the kind of resilience loss of local knowledge. When figures show that Belfast, in which people can have trust. It will also build knowledge which has become responsible for most of the Clyde to ensure that people are safe 24/7, not just when a area, was understaffed 71% of the time during the six coastguard co-ordinating centre happens to be open. I months following the closure of the Clyde station, that am pleased to have been able to review the report. clearly increases the seafaring community’s lack of confidence. I hope that the Government will address 1.54 pm that point. More positively, I am not aware of any incidents Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): It is a pleasure since the closure of the Forth or Clyde stations in which to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I understaffing at coastguard co-ordination centres has congratulate the Transport Committee on its report and caused a problem in responding to incidents. That is a on paying close attention to so important an issue, as tribute to the professionalism of the coastguard staff, well as on securing this debate. I join the Chair of the but we cannot be complacent. As my hon. Friend the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) said, the system Riverside (Mrs Ellman), in paying tribute to both will be put to the test when there is a major incident. We professional and volunteer coastguards—the professional all hope that there will not be one, but one will inevitably rescue services and the volunteer lifeboat crews, who happen at some point, and that will test the system. I devote a huge amount of time to rescuing people from hope that the co-ordination centres are all fully staffed the waters around our coasts. before that happens. The Government have undertaken The Scottish Affairs Committee, of which I am a recruitment programmes, and I hope that the Minister member, has investigated the implications of the changes will report that they have been successful and that for the coastguard service in Scottish waters. The Forth understaffed watches are a thing of the past. and Clyde coastguard stations were the first to close, Concern about the loss of local knowledge was one with their functions being transferred to Aberdeen, of the main reasons why seafarers were not convinced Belfast and Stornoway. During its inquiry, the Scottish about the reorganisation of the coastguard. I hope that Affairs Committee found that the Government had both new recruits and existing staff now covering a clearly failed to carry public opinion with them on different area will have been trained and tested on their changes to the coastguard service, and recommended knowledge of the area for which they are responsible. I that the Government hope that the Minister will reassure the House on that. “do more to provide reassurance to seafarers who may need to I am pleased that the Government have listened to contact the coastguard in an emergency.” the concerns that were expressed and have arranged for The lack of public confidence in the changes has not two emergency towing vessels to be available in Scottish been helped by the fact that Belfast, Stornoway and waters. However, there is concern on the west coast that Aberdeen have consistently been understaffed since the both vessels are based in the northern isles, and that one closure of the Forth and Clyde stations. In response to a is no longer based in Stornoway. I note from the question from the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Government’s response that in moderate sea conditions Iar (Mr MacNeil), the Minister placed in the Library a it will take approximately eight to nine hours for an table showing the number of coastguard watches that emergency towing vessel to arrive at a position between were staffed below risk levels during the year from May North Minch and the Little Minch and, in heavier 2012 to May 2013. The table makes uncomfortable weather when an incident is more likely to occur, it will reading, particularly in relation to Belfast. From December take about 11 to 12 hours. It will take even longer for 2012, when the Clyde station closed, to May 2013, the emergency towing vessel to get to the southern Belfast was staffed below the risk assessed level 71% of Hebrides in my constituency. I hope the Government the time, which is extremely worrying. During the same will have another think about basing an emergency period, its partner station, Stornoway, was understaffed towing vessel in Stornoway and bear in mind the extreme 17% of the time. The table does not tell us how often environmental damage that an oil spill would cause. Belfast and Stornoway were both understaffed at the They should compare the costs of a clean-up with the same time, but the figures show that that must inevitably costs of an emergency towing vessel based in Stornoway. have happened on several occasions. After all, prevention is better than cure. 323WH Coastguard (Maritime Incident 17 OCTOBER 2013 Coastguard (Maritime Incident 324WH Response Group) Response Group) Mr MacNeil: Iceland, which has suffered major financial staffed by volunteer coastguards. Unfortunately, there trauma in the past five years, has actually gone in the has been an attitude of extreme intransigence on the opposite direction from that taken by the UK Government part of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency in the in northern and western Scotland. Does the hon. Gentleman matter of dual manning. I represent a rural constituency not feel that a huge error has been made here and that and we are fortunate to have volunteers who are prepared the calculation that should be done is the ongoing cost to undertake dual manning. There has never been an versus the cost of any incident that could occur? I have issue over that. Unfortunately, volunteers are being a terrible feeling that the Government are spoiling the pressured into a situation where they have to choose ship for a ha’p’orth of tar and that we really should between one or other of the operations, and there have that emergency towing vessel in Stornoway now. simply is not the availability of staff in the area reliably to man both as completely separate teams. Mr Reid: As I have said, prevention is definitely better than cure. It is important to stress that there are Ian Pedrick, who heads up a team, is the third generation two emergency towing vessels in Scottish waters—the in this community that has manned the Hope Cove same number as there were before—so the Government lifeboat. If pressed, the entire team would opt to stay clearly listened to the concerns that many of us expressed. with the Hope Cove rescue boat because there is such a None the less, the hon. Gentleman makes the important long tradition within our community and it is such a point that one of the vessels should be based in Stornoway highly valued resource. Will the Minister look at the to cover the west coast. matter and try to break the deadlock, so that we can continue an arrangement that has served our community Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman says that there are well over generations. two vessels, but it is their location and what they are The third issue is emergency towing vehicles. There actually doing that is the problem. are concerns in my constituency that we may find that Mr Reid: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is there are no vessels capable of carrying out the duties of not the number of vessels that is the problem but the ETVs closer than Brest or Cherbourg. Evidence for that location. There is no vessel based in Stornoway to cover is supplied by the MCA head of pollution control. Both the west coast, and I hope that the Government will vessels are many hours away. They are under the control take that on board. of the French Government and might be available if the I also note that funding for the emergency towing French are not using them. It should be noted that the vessels is only guaranteed until the end of the current French are particularly unhappy about the UK’s unilateral spending review period in 2015, which is not far off, so I withdrawal of ETV cover as it has left their coastline hope that the funding will be guaranteed on a permanent also relatively unprotected. I do not need to spell out to basis. The seas around the west coast and islands provide the Minister the disastrous consequences if we had a the basis for much of the local economic activity.Preserving spillage in the channel, which is a busy shipping area. lives and the environment is vital, as is reassuring seafarers The impact would be felt not only by our valued fishing that rescue will come quickly if they get into difficulties. industry but by our tourism industry. Will the Minister Our coastguards, both professional and volunteer, and tell us exactly what facilities would be available on a the professional rescue services and volunteer lifeboat commercial basis, and what assessment has been made crews do a tremendous job. They deserve to be backed of their reliability to provide the reassurance that my up by a properly resourced system of co-ordination and constituents seek should there be a shipping disaster in emergency vessels. I hope that the Minister will be able the future? Let me close now by paying tribute to our to give us some assurances on the issues that I have local coastguards for everything they do on our behalf. raised today. 2.7 pm 2.2 pm Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): It is a Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I apologise to the great pleasure and privilege, Mr Rosindell, to serve hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) under your chairmanship, and to speak for the first for missing the start of the debate. Unfortunately, I had time as the Front-Bench spokesman with responsibility an unbreakable commitment, but I have read the excellent for this area. Like others, I pay tribute to the work of report and congratulate the Committee on its follow-up. the coastguards. Both the regulars and the volunteers I have three issues to raise. First, it remains a matter of do a fantastic job, as do the other sea rescue agencies profound regret in my constituency that the Brixham that they work with. maritime rescue co-ordination centre will close. I pay tribute to the staff at the centre and to the dignified way I am conscious of the fact that this area is both in which they are assisting in the handover period. complex and difficult and one to which I am new. Listening to the accounts of staff, I hope that the Having served as a Parliamentary Private Secretary in a Minister will pay particular attention to ensuring that range of Government Departments and sat on two we retain their valuable skills and support those who Select Committees, I know that there are no easy answers, are able to continue within the service so that we do not either political or administrative, in issues such as this. lose their local knowledge. I take the point, however, However, the business of Government can be improved that the efforts that are being made to transfer some of by three things: evidence-driven policy, wide consultation that local knowledge into detailed databases will be with stakeholders and using Select Committees as a helpful. critical spur to challenge too many paper or computer- Secondly, much local knowledge is vested in the driven scenarios. volunteer coastguards. Will the Minister look at a particular Evidence-driven policy has often been lacking, as the area in my constituency around Hope Cove? We have a Select Committee discovered after much prodding and Hope Cove rescue boat and a cliff rescue team, which is probing over the past two years. The deficiencies in the 325WH Coastguard (Maritime Incident 17 OCTOBER 2013 Coastguard (Maritime Incident 326WH Response Group) Response Group) [Mr Gordon Marsden] Recently, I have put a couple of written questions to the Minister on that issue. I will just quote from the process are clear. As the Select Committee pointed out, reply to one of them: there was no thorough public consultation and the “The RNLI, like coastguard rescue teams, independent lifeboats, original proposals were deeply flawed. To their credit, rescue helicopters and other rescue facilities, are not affected by the Government responded to those points, but it is these changes.”—[Official Report, 15 October 2013; Vol. 568, concerning none the less that, even at this stage, the c. 661W.] Select Committee, two years on from the original proposal, I submit that if anyone ever wanted to see an example still has some specific concerns about the direction of of silo mentality in a Government Department, there it responsibility. is. I invite the Minister to comment on why I received There are big issues around greater local interoperability that particular written response. and they seem to have been ignored or ducked. In many cases, the Government seem to have put the cart before Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman take this the horse, closing MRCCs before the maritime operations opportunity to state whether he believes an emergency centre is fully operative, and there are widespread woes, towing vessel should be based in Stornoway? Indeed, as we have already heard this afternoon, that local will he commit to such a vessel being based in Stornoway knowledge is being spurned and not transferred. in the future? We know that the day-today co-operation between Mr Marsden: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman MOC and the centres is soon to be replaced by the for his intervention. He and his colleague, the hon. coastguard operation centres. The Government say that Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), have already coastguard officers will be trained more broadly and raised that issue and I will return to it later in my extensively, making them more flexible. We have already speech. heard about how local knowledge can be shared between local coastguards. However, I have a question, which How do the Government expect fire and rescue services echoes what the Chair of the Transport Committee, my in particular to develop proposals for an at-sea presence hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs without direct central funding, at a time when local Ellman), said—how can local knowledge be shared budgets are more stretched than ever? I know that there when so little time has been allowed for handover is, of course, a piecemeal arrangement along the south between the closing of MRCCs and the neighbouring coast, but so far as I am aware that does not extend centres? Also, how will staff in the MOC gain this elsewhere. information for all of their areas? I understand that on In response to the Select Committee, the Minister has one occasion the Department for Transport spokesperson produced positive scenarios about the interaction of said that they could use social media, but the Minister MOC staff and MRCC staff, but the Committee has must be aware that there are very strict conventions rightly pressed the Government on major incident scenarios. within the maritime service about how social media are If we look at the Government response, we see that used, so perhaps he would like to examine that issue or page 7 contains a list of actions that superficially seem comment on it. impressive. I came to this brief from looking at further The Government have also said that the MOC will education funding. In that sector too, there are wonderful oversee a range of services, including search and rescue, diagrams about the process of money and the process but do more resources need to be put aside for it also to of communication, and I am sure that if the Minister manage the introduction of a newly privatised search got his officials to produce a complicated diagram of and rescue service and to have the capacity to adapt to the various steps that are listed on page 7 it would be the longer term search and rescue solution? I ask the even more impressive. But the crucial question is how Minister, specifically, what confidence he has that Dover, long it would take the complex chain of command as a back-up to the Fareham-based MOC, will be far detailed on page 7 to operate and respond. That will be enough away from Fareham to provide an effective the determination of how effective the MOC is, and back-up, so that a serious event could not result in both raising that issue underlines the continued concerns and centres being incapacitated at the same time? disquiet that members of the Committee and other hon. Members have expressed today about emergency At the close of the second consultation, at the end of vessels. November 2011, the then Minister—the Minister of I turn now to the issue of staffing, because that has State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. already been talked about in considerable detail. The Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning)—admitted demographic profile of coastguards is highly skewed that concerns had already been expressed about having towards older employees. The Minister’s own figures, both an unmanned centre and back-up in the south, from the Government response to the Committee, show when they should perhaps be more geographically separated. that, for example, in Falmouth 14 of the 33 coastguards Of course, there are also wider issues of collaboration are over the age of 50 and in Humber 16 of the 27 here. If the Government boast that this change is a coastguards are over 50. So, those valued employees thorough overhaul of the service, why has there been no will probably be leaving the service during the next five broader assessment at any stage of the relationship to 10 years and taking their experience with them, at the between the coastguard and the MOC, and the other same time as there is major upheaval in coastguard traditional rescue services—the beach patrols and lifeguards operations. In addition, there is currently a growing loss that local councils run, the fire and rescue services, and of valuable expertise in the service. For example, only crucially the relationship with the Royal National Lifeboat one of the London coastguards has more than 20 years Institution, which is not only about central administration of experience. Therefore, the emerging picture is that no but local volunteers? replacement generation of coastguards is coming through 327WH Coastguard (Maritime Incident 17 OCTOBER 2013 Coastguard (Maritime Incident 328WH Response Group) Response Group) with the extensive service that is needed both to replace I know that they have been considerably aired in the those who will soon leave and to oversee the introduction local media, including the transfer of oil from one of the new system. tanker to another along the coast from Lowestoft and In 2011, the Government proposals estimated a total Southwold. There have been issues about co-ordination, reduction in staffing numbers from 596 to 370, with which have been exacerbated by the removal of the coastguard numbers falling from 491 to 248. Therefore, Yarmouth centre. There has been a particular incident there will be an increasing reliance on volunteers, with at Caister in the recent past and the Caister lifeboat the number required rising from 80 to 105. We have centre has expressed its concerns. My colleague in the already heard today about some of the problems with European Parliament, Richard Howitt, said that the volunteers, so could the Minister give more up-to-date decision on Yarmouth could lead to a disaster. figures on the assessment of job losses as a result of this reorganisation? Dr Coffey rose—

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Mr Marsden: I am just about to come on to what the (Stephen Hammond): I think that the hon. Gentleman is hon. Lady said earlier. She told us that several people really confused at this point. There are no volunteers had transferred from Yarmouth to Humber, but of being used in the co-ordination centres, and the centres course what she did not tell us was how many people are what those figures were referring to. So he might had not done so. just want to gently correct the record on that point. Dr Coffey: The hon. Gentleman just needs to be Mr Marsden: I will correct the record as and when I careful about that case, because I think it is still being have examined the details of what the Minister has said, investigated. I appreciate that Mr Howitt said what he and if it needs to be corrected. did, but the risk is that when the full details come out he will understand that the process happened exactly as it Does the Minister accept, therefore, that frequent should have done. reports of low morale in the service are exacerbated by the Government’s inability to provide a clear picture of coastguards’ future? It seems to me that the closures at Mr Marsden: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. Forth and Clyde, what has been said in that area and I am not making any particular comment on what the the admirable work of my hon. Friend the Member for final incident report might be in that respect; I am North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) on the numbers merely reporting to her, as I am sure she is already involved have produced some really rather concerning aware, the concerns that were expressed by the Caister statistics. The Public and Commercial Services Union lifeboat crew. has said that not only are 15% of all operational coastguard There are also issues regarding the Clyde and Forth posts vacant but of the 416 posts that are filled 24% of closures, which have been already referred to, including them are filled by officers on fixed-term appointments; the fact that those services are now being operated out I gather that those are Maritime and Coastguard Agency of Belfast. In my own neck of the woods, in Blackpool, statistics from 2012. My hon. Friend the Member for we are concerned about the closure of the Liverpool Liverpool, Riverside, the Chair of the Select Committee, centre. There is significant concern about all its work has already given the details showing the disillusionment being done out of Holyhead. Mr Ken Harcombe, from and resignation among volunteer coastguards. the National Coastwatch Institution’s Rossall point The Government have failed to offer a clear or finite observatory, just outside my constituency, said: timetable to coastguards, and they have explained that “Our concern would be if there was any delay dealing with that was due to the assessment of ongoing operations someone 300 miles away, that could cost lives.” and the success of transition. How that assessment We are keen to maintain some local community with would be made has never been made very clear. We have Liverpool. heard about the problems at Yarmouth, with it being Blackpool attracts some 10 million visitors a year. We designated as a daylight-only centre, and we have also have a lot of problems with sea tragedies and, if such heard about the changes in the closing dates for Solent, problems are exacerbated, that will make things far Portland and Brixham. These problems and changes worse, not just in Blackpool, but along the whole coast. breed confusion and can also lower morale. So, can the That is why the coroner for the area has expressed her Minister say what the current timetable is for the remaining concerns in the past and why the Blackpool annual closures at Liverpool, Swansea and Thames in 2014-15, patrol report for 2011 stated: and can he also say if that timetable is likely to change “The impending closure of Liverpool Coastguard Rescue given that the original timetable for those closures was Co-ordination Centre, is anticipated to have a significant effect on produced in 2011? beach/sea safety at Blackpool.” As I say, the Select Committee’s report talks quite a Before I leave local issues, my hon. Friend the Member lot about local knowledge, but of course what has been for Gower (Martin Caton), who is unable to be with us very apparent in this whole process—my hon. Friend, today, tells me that in Swansea there remains considerable the Chair of the Committee, has already referred to concern about the decision to close the centre there. this—is the continuing concern, which has been expressed There was a huge cross-party campaign against the again today by hon. Members, both about those centres closure. Questions still remain about why Milford Haven that have closed and those that are expected to close. was chosen as the site, as opposed to Swansea. I will just touch on two or three of those centres. The We have heard about the situation regarding emergency closure of the Yarmouth centre is not just an example towing vehicles in Scotland. What lessons have the of local jobs and a proud tradition being lost; there are Government learned from the experiences there about also some very specific local issues along that coastline. the need to maintain a Government-backed ETV in the 329WH Coastguard (Maritime Incident 17 OCTOBER 2013 Coastguard (Maritime Incident 330WH Response Group) Response Group) [Mr Marsden] saving would be swallowed up in cleaning costs? This decision is based on an assumption that the private interests of ensuring safety and protection from maritime sector would pick up the tab. However, outside Scotland, pollution? I am not in a position to say what the extent where, I gather, specific commitments have been made of that provision should be, but surely in this situation recently, there is no evidence that it will do so. The we should consider those things. What is the state of the Transport Committee was right to label this, in June procurement process, to find emergency towing vehicles 2011, as potentially a dangerous situation. support in Scottish waters? What are the long-term The Government’s response to this issue over the past plans to ensure the stable, reliable provision of ETV two years has been a curious mix of detailed response support in the rest of the UK’s waters? to the Select Committee’s excellent report and prodding, The Government did not explain, in their response to and dangerous complacency. It is quite clear that, the Select Committee’s critical question, how the ETV throughout the process, emotional intelligence and a in the northern isles would effectively serve the west sense of the need for co-operation from the work force coast. We have heard concerns about that this afternoon. has been severely lacking. The end of the Department’s most recent response to Mr Reid: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman is the Committee’s report slipped back into a Maoist view highlighting these concerns. He speaks as the Labour of permanent revolution, which will do little to assuage party spokesperson, so perhaps he will tell us whether the concerns of coastguards and coastal communities, the Labour party would, if it won the next election, about services that liaise with the general public. The propose to have an ETV on the west coast? Department dismissed the comments about the future, saying, “You can’t make decisions for a generation.” Of Mr Marsden: That is a nice try, but the hon. Gentleman course, no Government can guarantee no further change, knows that we cannot make commitments to future but it is important to respond in a considered, thoughtful funding until we have seen the books, after the next way to a Select Committee report, rather than arrogantly. election. He also knows that the first step in making Generations are normally considered as periods of decisions in this area is to do a proper analysis, which 30 years. Earlier this year, I attended a moving unveiling the Government have failed to do. ceremony in Blackpool on the 30th anniversary of three When the Government responded, initially— police officers losing their lives in a sea incident. That brought home to me the need for all emergency coastal Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman explain the services, whether voluntary and statutory, to co-operate difference between his position and the Government’s? and collaborate. That is what we should be looking for He seems to be talking about investigations tomorrow. out of this process—as well as answers to the detailed There is no firm commitment whatever to looking into questions, which the Transport Committee has still to the real, pressing need, as identified in the Select Committee receive. report. It is fluff we are hearing from the hon. Gentleman. 2.27 pm Mr Marsden: I regret to say that the hon. Gentleman would do better to stick up for his constituents, rather The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport than play party political games. He knows perfectly well (Stephen Hammond): I welcome the report and this that the real issue is whether there will be support in the debate, and the opportunity to update the House on short term, and that is an issue for the UK Government, some of the many developments in the modernisation so perhaps he will turn his attention to that in future, of the coastguard, in the approach to emergency towing rather than play political games. vessels and in the way fires at sea are now handled. Let me start, as the Committee Chair, the hon. Member Mr MacNeil: What is the difference? for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), rightly did—and as almost every other hon. Member who contributed to Mr Marsden: I am not taking another intervention the debate did—by praising the coastguard on its excellent from the hon. Gentleman. work, including an outstanding summer of hard work There was an airy response from the Department in that has seen our shores remain so safe. October 2010, when it announced why the process The Government welcome the interest of, and the would proceed as set out. It said: close scrutiny and challenge from, the Transport Committee “ship salvage should be a commercial matter between a ship’s over the past three years. The Committee Chair knows operator and a salvor.” that we have not agreed with all the Committee’s conclusions In my view, that shows that the Government do not get and recommendations, yet there are a number of legitimate, it. What about the pollution issues, in respect of which important matters to discuss. In my response, I hope to ETVs have been proposed as a solution? tackle the four or five major points on which she challenged the Government. We were told, in the original assessment, that the removal of a commitment to ETVs would save £32.5 million I state at the outset—I have said this to the Scottish over the spending review period, but, for example, we Affairs Committee and, twice, to the Transport Committee heard the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) in respect of maritime matters—and reassure hon. Members mention her concerns about the length of time it might that the Government will do nothing to endanger safety take for an ETV from the south coast to come and deal and they are not complacent. with an incident in her area. I have already talked about The Transport Committee’s primary area of interest the problems and deep concerns on the east coast about is the modernisation of the coastguard, which is of tanker-to-tanker oil transfers. If a major pollution incident great interest to a number of hon. Members, not least were to take place, how much of that alleged £32.5 million because, as an island nation, more than 200 parliamentary 331WH Coastguard (Maritime Incident 17 OCTOBER 2013 Coastguard (Maritime Incident 332WH Response Group) Response Group) constituencies have a coastline. There are more than to the fishing community on submarine movements and 200 million individual visits to the coast each year and military firing exercises. More recently, the world has no one in the country is more than 72 miles from the acquired the ability to track ship movements and plot sea. Even many hon. Members with inland constituencies them in real time on electronic charts using the automatic have rightly shown an interest in this matter. identification system. All that has added to the marine Before I address a number of the concerns raised by picture available to coastguards. hon. Members today, it is important to put the proposals The importance of maritime surveillance has increased for change back into context and to explain why they the relevance of situational or maritime domain awareness, were introduced in December 2010. At times, people as it is known. That has added to the need for differing have confused what the report is about; it is about the skills and growing responsibilities, so in 2010 we faced a co-ordination of maritime search and rescue, not about significant disparity of work load among maritime the front line. rescue co-ordination centres. At the height of a busy The proposals do not affect front-line services operated summer season, some centres could find themselves by the Royal National Lifeboat Institution and independent dealing with multiple incidents and having to drop lifeboats, nor do they affect the ability of search and coastguard duties and broadcasts to focus, rightly, on rescue helicopters to perform their task, for which, of life-or-death rescue situations. course, there is now greater investment. The proposals Current technology has now allowed some pairing of also do not affect mud and cliff rescue services provided resources between neighbouring centres to co-ordinate by volunteers and the coastguard rescue service. I have responses, but there is little capacity to provide support reiterated this before, but there is no impact on safety or beyond that. Prior to 2010, if both centres in a pair on those services. found themselves busy, routine lower-priority work would be dropped so that, quite rightly, the immediate impact Mr Marsden: I thank the Minister for clarifying, but on safety was addressed. None the less, there was a does he not accept that there is a difference between the significant gap in resilience. The case for a national, specific effects of the proposals? He is absolutely right joined up approach that allows work to be better managed to say that what is happening in the coastguard does not and distributed and exposes coastguards to the full formally affect the RNLI or the various other services range of work, thereby keeping their skills relevant and he mentions, but surely he would accept that, for good finely tuned, seemed clear in 2010. reasons or otherwise, when the area of coverage is Let us not be under any illusion: there was clear widened, as under the proposals, there are implications consensus across the House, which was highlighted for how the service is co-ordinated. The Department during some of the consultation exercises, on the need should be considering better ways—there are always to do something about coastguard pay, particularly at better ways—of co-ordinating with the other services. lower levels. Creating a national network, with the new national maritime operations centre at its heart, has put Stephen Hammond: As I have contested both before in place improved safety systems with fewer coastguards the Select Committee and in other debates, the impact in fewer locations, but, importantly, it is helping to will be that the co-ordination of the affected services relocate the money to ensure that we have properly will improve. The services will be more resilient and improved pay to reflect the increased responsibilities safety will increase. That is key, and we must ensure that placed on coastguards in the new centres across the we do not lose sight of it at the outset of this debate. country. That is why it is right to propose the changes. Historically, in the 1970s we had a coastguard In her opening remarks, the hon. Member for Liverpool, co-ordination system fit for the 1970s. In 2010, however, Riverside rightly said that there were concerns about that co-ordination system had not moved on. The system the initial plans, and it is fair, as she rightly acknowledged, was still right for the 1970s, but it was certainly not that the Government accepted those concerns and modified appropriate for the 21st century. The fact that we had the plans. Following the Transport Committee’s report, done so well was due to the excellent work of the superb changes were made and a second set of proposals were men and women in the service. announced in July 2011. That set of proposals retained The case for change was that it had become clear that more centres, all operating on 24 hours and all with the technical and physical infrastructure in place in more coastguard operators. 2010 had not kept pace with the maritime operating Throughout the consultation process, there were environment. The service was geared up for its role of considerable concerns about the loss of local knowledge, dealing with localised, and only localised, maritime and several hon. Members have raised that point today. search and rescue, and to many extents it did that well. Concerns about the perceived loss of local knowledge But since the last major reconfiguration of the coastguard are understandable. Over a number of years, the number in the late 1970s, when it was recognised that there was of co-ordination centres has reduced from nearly 30, so no longer a need to maintain a visual watch, the demands the lack of local knowledge has been highlighted at on officers operating the system, as it was pre-December every stage of the process. 2010, had grown significantly. As the chief executive of the Maritime and Coastguard Technology has clearly moved forward. As many Agency and I explained to the Transport Committee, in hon. Members know, the introduction of the global the transitional phase, as the national network is being distress and safety system in the 1990s changed how put in place, the MCA is ensuring that there is time for coastguards receive distress messages. The demise of increasing coastguard familiarisation with their new the old coast radio stations led to coastguards taking on areas. All coastguards in the new areas are being tested the role of broadcasting regular navigation warnings on their understanding of local rescue facilities, incident and maritime safety information. Coastguards were hotspots and communication systems. Equally, all given new responsibilities for broadcasting information coastguards will have access to, and will share, a common 333WH Coastguard (Maritime Incident 17 OCTOBER 2013 Coastguard (Maritime Incident 334WH Response Group) Response Group) [Stephen Hammond] building leasing arrangements for Clyde and Great Yarmouth, and to reflect the robustness of the existing national system. We are also working with the Ordnance technical infrastructure between Forth and the centre at Survey on developing a database of vernacular place Aberdeen. names, which will allow multiple names to be applied to Before each centre closed, the neighbouring centres any coastal feature or place, factoring in local as well as increased familiarity with the new patch. Some officers Gaelic and Welsh names. transferred from the closing centres, and experts with local intelligence briefed officers in the receiving centres—a Mr Marsden: I am pleased to hear what the Minister system known as pairing—so that local information has said about the testing process, but is he in a position was retained. A few weeks ahead of each closure, to elaborate slightly? How, specifically, will that work? coastguards at the receiving centres took on full If he is not in a position to elaborate, will he write to responsibility, while the closing centres went into shadow members of the Committee on that point? running mode. That gave everyone confidence that the systems would be and were working and that the receiving Stephen Hammond: I do not need to write to members officers could manage the larger areas competently. I of the Select Committee about that because Sir Alan hope that the House will join me in paying tribute to the Massey, the chief executive of the Maritime and Coastguard professionalism of the coastguard officers involved in Agency, and I set out in some detail how those transitional managing that process over the past 12 months, which arrangements will work. We set out the number of visits has been a credit to those involved. The experience that each coastguard is expected to undertake and the reaffirmed our belief that other closures can and will be time period for them to do so. managed safely and within the time set out, although If the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) we are not complacent. has the chance, I hope he will look at the evidence session, which I hope will reassure him. [Interruption.] To pick up some of the points made in the debate, I If he is not happy with that, I will happily respond hope that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside further, but I think he will find that our evidence sets heard my comments about local knowledge and, in out the arrangements. particular, developments with Ordnance Survey. She also asked what MOC staff would be doing when not Mrs Ellman: Will the Minister give us an absolute managing major incidents. They will of course be providing assurance that he is satisfied that there is an official routine operational cover for areas of the UK coastline, programme to ensure that coastguards increase their so that there is even stronger and better resilience in familiarity with new areas? The issue arising in the coverage. That will include vessel traffic monitoring, evidence taken by the Select Committee is that coastguards safety information and maintaining an updated national are working on that in their spare time, rather than as risk picture. an official part of business. There was some concern that coastguards had expressed the view that, overall, they would have to work longer Stephen Hammond: I am aware that the Select Committee hours. The new contract that has been agreed with the took some such evidence, but, equally, the chief executive Public and Commercial Services Union increases the of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency gave his assurance number of days, but reduces the number of nights. that time was being made available for coastguards to Therefore, staff will have more whole weekends off than do that, so it need not be done in anyone’s spare time. under the current arrangements, while leave for existing He also said that local knowledge would be in place up staff remains as it has always been. I hope that the hon. to two months before any coastguard station closing. Lady can accept my reassurance and see that we have We also discussed local knowledge in some depth taken on coastguards concerns. when I was before the Scottish Affairs Committee, and I We and the MCA in particular have made great remember that one Committee member said—my hon. progress in establishing the new national arrangements Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) may for infrastructure and technology. The new national also remember, if it was not his good self—that there MOC near Fareham is being equipped with the latest were three places, all within a mile of each other, known operational kit; it will be ready for training to start in by the same name, so that even the Member with his January and for full operational running by next September. local knowledge could not be certain whether he directed Acceptance checking of the refreshed emergency response people to the right place the first time. systems is progressing well, and that will shortly allow Local knowledge is important—retaining it and having the MCA to move into an extended period of operational knowledge transfer—as is the new vernacular system. testing. We must recognise, however, that at every stage local A number of Members who have contributed today knowledge is only one part of what should be in place. made the point, rightly, about the slower progress in With the new modern systems, it is incredibly important settling the new package of terms and conditions for that we rely not only on local knowledge, but on modern roles. That reflects the complications of agreeing a new mapping systems and vernacular place-name capture, package for coastguards, given the increased responsibilities, which will undoubtedly be an improvement. the commitment under the civil service reform plan to In November 2011, in response to the second debate, modernise the employment offer in the public sector another set of decisions was announced, together with and the consequent need for agreement. Without agreed the timetable for the closures and for the transition to terms and conditions, it would not be possible to start the national network. Since then, the MCA has managed recruitment for the new roles and responsibilities. the closures of Forth, Clyde and Great Yarmouth, the The good news is that the MCA has agreed a new set centres earmarked for closure ahead of establishing the of terms and conditions with the Treasury and a firm new national Maritime Operations Centre—due to the offer is on the table, which has the support of the PCS’s 335WH Coastguard (Maritime Incident 17 OCTOBER 2013 Coastguard (Maritime Incident 336WH Response Group) Response Group) elected representatives in the MCA. I hope that the Portland will close in September 2014 after the busy offer will be accepted. To be clear, the new jobs will have summer season, when the new NMO centre will be significantly increased responsibilities, which we have staffed and operational. The centre at Brixham will recognised with a significantly enhanced pay and grading close in November 2014, followed by Liverpool in January structure. For example, the lowest entry level for coastguard 2015 and Swansea in March 2015. The final centre to officers is now one civil service grade higher, which close will be the Thames centre at Walton-on-the-Naze means being paid 19% more than today. As I have said, in June 2015. The full technical infrastructure for the there will be some revision of working patterns in the new national, fully resilient system will be in place by package, but the shift systems will match demand much the end of 2015. better, according to the seasons and the time of day. Understandably, that final confirmation will disappoint Coastguards in all operational centres will therefore several hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the have a reduced number of night duties, with more full Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston). Like her, I praise weekends off during a year. The offer also includes a the coastguards at Brixham, but the new system will commitment to at least 60 hours of continuous professional ensure safety round her shores. She raised a particular development each year. issue regarding Hope Cove and I understand that the Recruitment for the new roles will start in November, MCA is working with the coastguards there to resolve and that process has also been agreed with the PCS. I that. I will ensure that my officials speak to the team at hope and expect that many existing coastguard officers Hope Cove, and I will respond in writing to my hon. will now opt to stay within the service and to apply for Friend to address her concern. the new roles as they become available. Others may wish to leave, and we will support them if they wish to Mr Reid: I was pleased that the Minister announced consider taking voluntary redundancy. In the interim, the 59 extra staff. Does he have the figures to show how the coastguard service has been committed not to leave staffing at Belfast and Stornoway compares with what vacancies unfilled until the roles were agreed—there has their establishment should be? If he does not have those been a continuing operation to recruit new officers. The figures, will he write to me? MCA has now successfully recruited 59 new coastguards, providing some resilience. There was particular concern Mr Hammond: If the hon. Gentleman gives me a about the low number of shifts in places such as Belfast, minute, I may be able to supply those figures. I can tell but we have seen success in recruiting there, as well as in him what the current vacancy level is, but I will ensure Falmouth, Solent and elsewhere. I am pleased that the that my officials give him the figures he asks for. recruitment process has continued and is continuing; a I turn to a couple of other points that the hon. point was made about the recruitment of some new Member for Blackpool South raised. He spoke about officers on fixed-term appointments, but, to be clear, the volunteer arrangements and I intervened to make such recruitment was explicitly agreed with the unions the point that they refer to volunteers on the front line first, to avoid any perception of unfair competition for and not to the co-ordination centres. I do not believe future jobs. those arrangements need to change because they are excellent. The Royal National Lifeboat Institution and Mr Marsden: Notwithstanding the progress that the the other voluntary coastguard systems provide a Minister has described in particular areas, which I will magnificent service, and to suggest that we are trying to reflect on, does he accept that there is a systemic issue alter that in any way would cause much disquiet. I hope about the age profile and the number of people likely to the hon. Gentleman agrees that they provide an excellent retire in the next five to 10 years? The problem is not service. unique to the MCA, but will need further thought and The hon. Gentleman asked about handing over following addressing by it. the closure of MRCCs and I made a statement on that a moment ago. I reiterate that that has been done in a Stephen Hammond: The MCA has addressed that staged way with shadowing and a gradual handover. I explicitly in the document. The ability to recruit new hope he will be reassured that it was not a case of one officers, particularly at the lower end, suffered because station closing one day, and a new one opening the of the lack of a career path and opportunities. I hope following morning. Far from it, there have been traditional the hon. Gentleman heard me say that we have agreed a pairing operations and the handovers have been based new grading system with enhanced responsibilities and on those pairing operations. Indeed, there was significant a clear career path, and that is reflected in a rise in civil time in-between to ensure that all the arrangements service grading. I hope that that will make this a much were in place. more attractive and rewarding career to many people. I I turn briefly to emergency towing vessels in Scotland, also hope that now that the new roles have been settled to which the hon. Member for Blackpool South and the and there is an ongoing vacancy recruitment process, hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), we will shortly be able to report a considerable reduction who is no longer in his place, referred. The Government in the number of shifts below assessed risk level. have undertaken the necessary analysis and assessment. I turn to the implementation timetable, which we set We all accept that shipping is not risk-free, but the out in November 2011. We now accept that some of it is world has moved on considerably since the Government- no longer achievable because of the need to ensure a funded tugs. There have been improvements in technology, safe transition to the national system. We have made navigation and safety systems, with the advent of new small but necessary and sensible adjustments to the ship routeing and reporting. planned closure dates. They have been communicated We continue to take the view that it is for the shipping to staff and to search and rescue partners, and I have industry to manage and to mitigate the risks that its written to all hon. Members. The stations at Solent and activities present to the maritime environment and to 337WH Coastguard (Maritime Incident 17 OCTOBER 2013 338WH Response Group) [Mr Philip Hammond] Food Contamination make full use of the established arrangements for the provision of commercial towage and salvage. Those [MRS SANDRA OSBORNE in the Chair] commercial arrangements are working well in some [Relevant documents: Eighth report of the Environment, areas where the Government used to provide funded Food and Rural Affairs Committee, Contamination of tugs, particularly in the south-west approaches and the Beef Products, HC 946, and the Government Response, Dover strait. Indeed, those commercial arrangements HC 1085, and Fifth Report of the Environment, Food and have now been the norm for almost two years, and have Rural Affairs Committee, Food Contamination, HC 141, worked well. and the Government Response, HC 707.] The Government accept that there was an issue with the availability of commercial tugs in the waters off 3pm Scotland, which proved to be more problematic, so we gave a commitment to fund a single emergency tug Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I based in Orkney. However, due to the excellent working welcome you to the Chair, Mrs Osborne. Together with across Government and with the oil and gas industry, colleagues from the Select Committee on Environment, we have been able to put in place arrangements that Food and Rural Affairs, I am delighted to have secured permit a vessel that is normally engaged in commercial the debate. I welcome my hon. Friend the Minister to operations to be released from its contracted duty to his new position and congratulate the hon. Member for perform emergency towage in the waters off northern Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) for retaining his as shadow Scotland. That has been available at no extra cost. The Minister. Secretary of State led those discussions and the discussions The Minister is new, but we look forward to hearing on the future of emergency towing vehicles in Scotland. his remarks in summing up the debate. I take this The Scottish Government were also involved. A solution opportunity to thank him, in his individual capacity, for has been found for the next two years with a vessel the contribution he made and excellent work he did on commercially funded by the offshore industry. That is the Select Committee. I remind the Chamber—and, welcome and provides the necessary resilience for the perhaps, the Minister—that he contributed to and supported coast there. the conclusions of both the reports and the Government The hon. Member for Blackpool South asked about responses, which we received just as he was vacating his the complement in Belfast. Shetland is six down but we position. I hope that he will keep some of his enthusiasm are in the process of recruiting three officers, so it is and vigour in summing up today. only three below complement. Stornoway had been two I would like to talk briefly about the history—a officers down, but the recruitment process has resulted previous Committee report is also of interest. The in two officers about to join so it will be at full complement. United Kingdom decided to impose a moratorium on desinewed meat production in this country, which had Dr Wollaston: Will the Minister write to me to reassure huge implications—not only for my constituency, but my constituents about the availability of commercial for parts of Northern Ireland. Newby Foods was told ETVs? We do not have an offshore oil industry that that it could no longer produce desinewed meat, which could provide such support. led to a loss of 30 jobs near Thirsk. Since we conducted our report and reviewed the UK Stephen Hammond: I will write to my hon. Friend to Government moratorium, which was imposed as a short- point out what arrangements are in place and why they term measure at the will of the European Commission have worked so well for the past two years. I am sure in Brussels, the Government have clarified desinewed that if she wishes to raise other issues, she will, and I meat from poultry and pork as being from non-ruminants, will be happy to respond. so that they may continue. However, will the Minister I am grateful for the opportunity to have this debate continue to make the case to the European Union for this afternoon. It has enabled me to set out our position desinewed meat production from lamb and beef to be and, hopefully, to allay some fears of hon. Members allowed to continue, as well as from pork and poultry? about the progress of recruitment, the resilience of the That information is relevant to the debate, because transition process and the confirmation of the final we concluded, in, I believe, March 2012—this was based dates of closure of a number of the MRCCs. I am also on an assertion in evidence from a predecessor of the pleased that progress to get the national centre at Fareham Minister; it was perhaps two farming Ministers ago—that ready on time is going well, and I think that a more ceasing production of desinewed meat could lead to cost-effective, safer arrangement for UK coastal mislabelling and contamination and adulteration of co-ordination has been secured. meat, with cheaper cuts of meat substituted for the meat that is on the label. 2.59 pm I shall go through each—[Interruption.] Mrs Ellman: I thank the Minister for his remarks; his Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. answers bring clarity to some important issues. He began by saying that safety would not be affected, but that, indeed, remains the challenge. 3.15 pm On resuming—

Miss McIntosh: Perhaps I could set the scene in terms of the food industry. As of last year, there were more than 490,000 food businesses in England. In 2011-12, 339WH Food Contamination17 OCTOBER 2013 Food Contamination 340WH spending to protect consumers from food incidents was One worry is identifying the supply chain, and traceability, £241 million, 75% of which was spent by local authorities and we drew some clear conclusions from the evidence. to enforce food law. The chief executive of the FSA told us the contamination and adulteration could have been going on for almost a One issue the Committee identified was that the Food year, from March 2012, when desinewed meat production Standards Agency reports to three key Departments in this country was banned—there was also a so-called with responsibility for aspects of food policy.Furthermore, ban in the EU, although we believe it was being produced there has been a marked fall since 2009-12 in the number in the EU. of the local authority food samples tested. In addition, there are 12 different national and European databases We concluded that the system for food traceability, on food intelligence. including the requirement that at every stage in the supply chain operators must keep records of the source Let me record a little of the history. In November and destination of each product, has been breached; 2012, there was a routine meeting between the Food that retailers and meat processors should have been Safety Authority of Ireland and the UK’s FSA. At that more vigilant about the risk of deliberate adulteration; meeting, the Irish FSA mentioned that it was developing and that trust is not a sufficient guarantee in a system a new methodology for checking the composition of where meat is traded many times before reaching its meat products. The first question the Committee asked—we final destination. We have also noted our concern about are asking it again today—was why it took two months the length of supply chains for processed and frozen for our own FSA to authorise and conduct any testing. beef products. We welcome the efforts of some retailers Tests then found that there had been contamination; to shorten those whenever possible. it was small in the UK, but it was widespread in the EU. In the UK, horse and pig DNA were found in a variety Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I commend the of beef products, including samples of Findus lasagne, hon. Lady for securing the debate. Perhaps I can bring which contained more than 60% horsemeat; Aldi lasagne together two strands of her thinking. There will be and spaghetti bolognese, which contained between 30% public discontent if only a relatively few small players and 100% horsemeat; and beef products certified as are investigated and prosecuted and become scapegoats halal and supplied to prisons in England and Wales, for the industry. If larger players—whether they are which contained pork DNA. meat processors, retailers or others—can be proved not to have used due diligence, or to have been negligent, Those findings emerged only after extensive testing ignorant or downright culpable, the size of the operation of beef products across the EU and by local authorities or its importance to the European market should not and industry in the UK. The EU tests revealed that preclude investigation, including by Governments working 4.66% of products contained more than 1% horse DNA. together, if necessary. The UK incidence of contamination in products tested was less than 1%. Although the contamination was Miss McIntosh: I welcome that intervention. The small, and the principle was that this was a labelling and hon. Gentleman’s Front-Bench colleague, the hon. Member a fraud issue, there could so easily have been a food for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), led a line of questioning safety scare and a food safety scandal. in that regard, and we met a brick wall. I agree that the action taken should not be symbolic, against small Complacency is not the best word to use, but we have retailers. We must go through the supply chain. When a seen no sense of urgency among those on the Government major supermarket takes a supply chain on trust year Benches, which is why we welcome my hon. Friend’s after year, without inspecting identities and its integrity, appointment as Minister. The Secretary of State or there is definitely something wrong. As to traceability another Minister told us in evidence that the perpetrators and the so-called labelling issue, I confess to being of this crime—if it was a crime, and everyone generally disappointed with the Government response. We have understands it is a crime—would face the full force of identified a problem of traceability and labelling, and I the law. What arrests have therefore been made? What is urge the Minister to go a bit further so that we have the role of Europol and, possibly, Interpol? What charges concrete suggestions. and prosecutions have been brought by the City of London police to draw a line under this issue? I have mentioned the number of relevant businesses and the food industry’s importance to the economy. We If we are to boost consumer confidence, which I must accept, with respect to testing, the need for a think we all want to do, we must show there is no risk-based assessment, but when we are told that there further contamination and no prospect of further is a risk in a particular country we need, for goodness’ contamination. We therefore need to know at what sake, to wake up, liven up and respond, because of the stage the contamination and adulteration entered the potential for a problem in this country. food supply chain. We talk a lot in the two reports The people we need to go out and do testing—the about controls in the food chain, to protect consumers first in line—are food analysts. We learned in evidence from contaminated and potentially unsafe food, which that most of those are in the Association of Public did not work in the case in question. Analysts. I want to dwell on that point for a moment. Perhaps the most worrying aspect of the matter, as We found out that insufficient testing has been done by something following on from the BSE crisis, is that local authorities since 2009. We need to accept that, every 10 years we have either a food scare or a food although testing must be risk-based, there should be crisis. In the early 1990s it was BSE; in 2001 it was foot some random testing to ensure that nothing slips through and mouth disease; and in 2012—we know that it the net. started in 2011—it was the scandal to do with horsemeat We also identified an acute potential shortage of contamination, and pork DNA being found in halal public analysts. I want to take issue with the Government meat. That was completely unacceptable. response to our second report at point 13: 341WH Food Contamination17 OCTOBER 2013 Food Contamination 342WH

[Miss McIntosh] greater clarity about the role of the FSA in major incidents. The point is that we accept that this is primarily “Officials from both FSA and Defra meet regularly with a food-labelling issue, but there is the suggestion of representatives from the Association of Public Analysts and local fraud, to which the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw authorities to ensure sufficient laboratory capacity exists and Irranca-Davies) referred, on a massive scale, and we suitable methods are in place”. need the reassurance that the FSA is, in my words, fit I want to quiz the Minister on that. The Association of for purpose. However, the Government response does Public Analysts has meetings with FSA officials twice a not fit the bill. year. That is not “regularly”—it is only every six months. We are told: One meeting was attended by a DEFRA official, the implication being that the other was not, and laboratory “The Government is concerned that the Committee may have capacity is not discussed. Even if it were discussed, it is misunderstood”— not within the gift of individual public analysts, or the I say to the Minister that that is a very dangerous association, to prevent laboratory closures or to ensure allegation to make— sufficient capacity. “the status and constitution of the FSA.” The Government response is flawed because it does We know, as the response states, that the FSA, not deal with the Committee recommendation that they “as a non-Ministerial government department, does not report to should ensure that there are sufficient properly trained any other department. The FSA is accountable to Parliament and public analysts. Why does that matter? It is not only the reports…through Health Ministers.” Committee, which heard powerful and compelling evidence The National Audit Office confirms our initial conclusion about it, that concluded that it is important. The National that the problem is that the FSA reports to three Audit Office report, published earlier this month, leant different Departments. That is a source of concern. It is heavily on—I would like to think—our work and on the compounded by the fact that we are having review after report’s conclusions and recommendations. It stressed, review after review. We came to conclusions quite early as we did, that budget cuts coupled with a two thirds on—in March, I think—about our fundamental concerns. rise in reported food fraud have increased the risk of We are now hurrying towards the end of the year. We another horsemeat scandal. The NAO also said that the have the benefit of Professor Pat Troop’s response to cuts in testing led to a loss of intelligence information, the incident. Her conclusions back up entirely what we so that the Government say. “failed to identify the potential risk of adulteration of beef with horsemeat, despite indications of heightened risk.” The question for the Minister is why the Government are not responding to our conclusions, to the review by The NAO report questions whether there will be Professor Troop and to the National Audit Office findings, sufficient capacity to respond to future incidents. I am but have called for another review. This is something mindful of what the previous Secretary of State, my that we used to say in opposition; it is not unfamiliar to right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), me. Under the last Administration, as I am sure the said about DEFRA being the fourth emergency service, hon. Member for Ogmore will remember, if there was a and of the possibility that, given the dramatic decline problem, we would have a review, then another review over recent years in the number of public analysts and and then another review. Now, we need to see some laboratories, there will not be the capability for detecting action, so the fact that the Elliott review has been set food fraud. I urge the Minister to respond to that up, will make an interim conclusion and will report concern. finally only in the spring of next year is very disappointing I have covered the question of Europol, Interpol and and missing the point. our police bringing people to book, and discussed traceability. I want to make a final point. There is a I would like to draw the strands together and confirm richesse before us, and I could dwell on every that this is not the time for another review. We need a recommendation and conclusion; I am sure that the fundamental rethink on the infrastructure, composition Minister will remember the passion with which the and role of the Food Standards Agency, what its Committee adopted the recommendations. I want now relationships with the Departments are and who goes to focus on what the FSA’s role should be. out and gives explanations to the public and to the industry in the event of an incident. In our first report, we conclude: We need to see some movement on reducing the “Whilst Ministers are properly responsible for policy, the FSA’s diminished role has led to a lack of clarity about where responsibility likelihood of future contamination by improving the lies, and this has weakened the UK’s ability to identify and traceability provisions and ensuring the integrity of respond to food standards concerns.” each supply chain. It is very pleasing that in local We found that the FSA and Government reacted in a butchers’ shops in my constituency and, I understand, “flat-footed” way and were across the country and in farm shops and at farmers’ markets, the purchasing of food has gone up incrementally. “unable to respond effectively within structures designed primarily to respond to threats to human health.” Everyone is buying local, because they know what they are buying. They know that it is beef or whatever the We did not much care for the Government response, label says. As I said, that is very pleasing, but we need to but I am sure that the Minister will try to justify the restore public confidence in what is a multi-million-pound rather disappointing response that the industry through supermarkets. We also need to look at “Machinery of Government changes in 2010 led to some changes”. the vexatious issue of there being a shortage of analysts The response went on to tell us what they were. and insufficient testing to put the consumer mind at rest. In our more recent report, to which we have only I commend our two reports to the House. I have recently received the Government response, we reiterate dwelt on three issues, but I would like to bring to our previous conclusion and confirm that we need the attention of the Minister and the shadow Minister 343WH Food Contamination17 OCTOBER 2013 Food Contamination 344WH our main concerns, which are set out in all our to introduce a cheaper product into what is a fairly recommendations. Those have been supported by Professor expensive product. My criticism of the supermarket Pat Troop’s review. She does not disagree with them one and meat processors still stands: rather than accepting iota. We have also had the very powerful—it uses very that the price of the commodity had gone up, they were strong language—report from the National Audit Office scouring the European markets and probably the world on “Food safety and authenticity in the processed meat markets to find a cheaper product. That gave an opportunity supply chain”. I therefore now say to the Minister that for less scrupulous people to get involved and make this is a call for action, rather than for another review. money.

3.35 pm Huw Irranca-Davies: My hon. Friend is makes a good contribution. He has a great background in this area. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): It Does he agree that a signal change of the past few is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, decades has made good governance necessary, as the Mrs Osborne, at this late hour on a Thursday afternoon. hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton said? Whereas a I should begin by declaring an interest. I am still involved previous outbreak to do with either food providence or in a farming business that produces red meat: beef and safety may have been relatively isolated in a region—I lamb. I commend the Chairman of the Select Committee, have had them in my area—nowadays the potential the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), danger and risk are much greater, because they are and the members of the Committee for the work that transnational and affect the plates of far more consumers, they have done on this very important matter. I also potentially in many different countries? That is why commend the NAO report that has recently been published. governance is important. The sound and fury has gone out of this matter for now, but that does not mean that it is not extraordinarily Roger Williams: I agree. My hon. Friend—he is a important. It is extraordinarily important for our farming Welsh MP with me, so I will call him that—reiterates communities that their product should not be contaminated the words of the Chair of the Select Committee. That again in the future and extraordinarily important for was a conclusion the Committee came to. consumers that they should have the ability to choose I was going to say that part of the complexity with what they want to eat, knowing that it is as described on the process was that the contamination was not happening the label. Sadly, however, the history of food is full of in only Britain or one region of Britain. Very long and examples of contamination and adulteration. The watering complex food chains were undoubtedly involved, and down of beer is a heinous crime, but it has been perpetrated part of the problem is that we do not know where some everywhere. It is not the only one, unfortunately. of the products originated. For me, one of the key I would like to draw a distinction between contamination things to come out of the NAO report is on page 5: and adulteration. As far as I am concerned, contamination “Six months on, inquiries are still ongoing and the original is when a small quantity of extraneous material finds its source of the adulteration has not been identified.” ways into foodstuffs. That usually occurs because of It goes on to say that some people have been arrested. negligence or carelessness in the preparation or processing For all that our Government have done and for all that of food, in relation either to buildings or to equipment. Governments on the continent have done, we still do Sometimes contamination may not be serious. It may not know where the horsemeat entered the food chain. involve inert material. But sometimes, of course, it can Until we can establish that, we will not have done a be very serious indeed. One example is the poisonous good job and we will not have deterred other people material ergot in rye bread; I can think of other examples. from trying to make opportunistic profits. It is also very serious when infective material gets into If we do not know where the meat came into the food foodstuffs. Sadly, there are outbreaks of E. coli from chain, we have no idea what its provenance was. We do time to time in this country. Of course, the Chairman of not know whether the animal was slaughtered in a the Select Committee mentioned the presence of pork registered slaughterhouse or the back shed of a farm in food that is supposed to have been processed to an somewhere. We have no idea about the safety of the halal standard, which is grossly offensive to the Muslim meat. It appears to many of us that the crisis did not community. That is particularly serious as well. involve any human illness, but if we do not know the I define contamination as something that does not provenance of the meat, we do not know if that was by take place deliberately, but it quickly became apparent luck alone. It is key that we continue our work and work to me during the so-called horsemeat scandal that what with our European partners on a governmental as well was happening was not happening through carelessness. as a police level to identify where the horsemeat entered In the main, it was a deliberate attempt to make money the food chain. out of fraud, and we should see it in that light. People from time to time do see the opportunity to do that. If Huw Irranca-Davies: What are the hon. Gentleman’s they can introduce something into a foodstuff that does views on the need for deep intelligence across Departments not necessarily alter its appearance, taste or consistency, in analysing what is going on? There could have been a they can get away with it for a short time before more moment when the contamination could have been picked sophisticated tests can be done on that foodstuff. The up. It is all very well saying that in hindsight, but it Chairman of the Committee mentioned the changes in could have been detected. We had massive shipments of the way in which certain foodstuffs, including meat, horses from Ireland and Northern Ireland into Britain could be included in other foodstuffs. for transport out of the UK, but they were not transported. Adulteration also occurs when we have high commodity They were disappearing. There were numbers in, but no prices for meat or for any foodstuff, and of course the numbers out. At some point, a good intelligence operation price of meat has risen quite considerably. If it rises would have spotted that and flagged up the fact that quickly, there are opportunities for the less scrupulous those horses were going somewhere. 345WH Food Contamination17 OCTOBER 2013 Food Contamination 346WH

Roger Williams: The hon. Gentleman raises another many European countries they can—they would good point. We must use intelligence. When I was doing immediately be able to tell the difference. If we minced work on illegal imports of meat products from Africa, it them up and put them in a burger, however, I suspect became apparent that the people involved in that were that when we actually looked at it physically, we would also involved in other criminal activities, such as drug not see a great deal of difference. If horse meat is smuggling and people smuggling. The penalties for trading at a quarter to a third of the price of beef, it drug smuggling and smuggling individuals across borders is tempting to the unscrupulous in the food processing were high, but the penalties for smuggling meat were industry to substitute one for the other. low and yet profits were high. There was a huge incentive Not only the Government but the large retailers to get involved, because the smugglers would not end should keep a check on the situation. If retailers are up in prison for very long, but would probably get a buying beef burgers for less than the cost of the beef paltry little fine having made a lot of money. The hon. that should be in them, they should ask how on earth a Gentleman gets the point: we must put pressure on our company can produce that product for that price. That European partners to work with us to share intelligence, is a lesson for the industry and the big retailers to learn. which is so important. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire probably I believe that a single market is hugely important for shares my view that although the big retailers are necessary, British agriculture, but to have a single market, we must they have used their muscle over the years to drive down have the same standards in Europe that we expect in prices for primary producers and farmers. They have Britain. Only when we can rely on our European partners spent their lives doing it. This time they drove the price to deliver that famous level playing field can we have down too far, and people came in who said, “Okay, confidence in the single market. I want to say a few these big retailers want cheap burgers; well, we’ll mix in words about why a single market is important for British a bit of horse meat, and it’ll be fine.” That is where agriculture: 90% of Welsh lamb is consumed outside questions need to be asked. Wales and 40% of UK lamb is exported, mostly to The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton made the continental Europe. Those of us in the farming business case that the Government need enough public analysts, remember when that market could be open one day and but retailers also need to employ such people or franchise shut another. We do not want things to be that way out the work to somebody else. When I go into a large now; we want it to be as it is at the moment, with the supermarket, I expect to buy a product that is made of market available to us every day of the year. We cannot what it says on the label. That is the retailer’s responsibility; be certain that we will have continuous access to the the Minister may well make that point later. Yes, it is the market if the conditions, processes and inspection regimes Government’s responsibility, but it is also very much the on the continent are not the same as those we have in responsibility of the retailer. Britain. I noticed that the Chair made a bit of a face when I I call on the Minister to continue the work. The job said that one could tell the difference between a joint of of examining what went on is not finished. It has only horse meat and a joint of beef. Ethically, we in this just begun in terms of working with our European country do not eat horse meat, but it is eaten in many partners to ensure that process are in place to ensure countries across Europe, and it is legal. It is necessary to that such contamination does not happen in the future. be able to slaughter horses for meat. There are so many horses in this country, some with huge welfare problems, 3.47 pm that if we could not slaughter them, the welfare problems Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): It is good would be even larger. I would much rather those horses to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Osborne. I be slaughtered humanely in this country than taken on welcome the new Minister to his place; we worked well vast journeys across the continent in poor conditions to together on the Select Committee and I look forward to be slaughtered. We must remember that slaughtering him having views entirely consistent with those he had and trading horse meat are not crimes in themselves. in Committee now he is a Minister. I am partly teasing him, but I look forward to working with him. I enjoyed Huw Irranca-Davies: The hon. Gentleman is making his friendship on the Committee. I congratulate my a good and cogent point. We must guard not only hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton against inhumane transport but against the possibility (Miss McIntosh), the Chair of the Select Committee, that imports of horse meat from places that previously on securing the debate, because it is necessary for us not discarded the slaughter of horses, such as the United to forget exactly what happened. States—they are now slaughtered in other countries I want to concentrate on the consequences and on the instead—might find their way back to us through Poland many lessons that we need to learn. For many years, I or the Czech Republic, with added ingredients such as have been saying that we have not had proper labelling phenylbutazone, known as bute. of the origins of processed food, especially meat products, and the contamination has highlighted that hugely. Neil Parish: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Basically, the product was travelling all across Europe intervention. It leads me neatly on to the fact that, as I from the Republic of Ireland, Poland and Romania into said, horse meat must be traceable. It is not only a case Luxembourg and France—it was travelling all over the of what is imported into this country. In America, there place. The trail—exporting from one country and importing are many racehorses and other sorts of horse that are to another—was almost impossible to follow. more likely to have been treated with all sorts of drugs As the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire throughout their lives. We must be careful of that. (Roger Williams) highlighted, the value of the processed We in this country must also be careful to ensure that meat is key. If someone bought a joint of beef and a we know where the horses that we slaughter have come joint of horse—we cannot do that in this country, but in from. At the moment, under the passport system, many 347WH Food Contamination17 OCTOBER 2013 Food Contamination 348WH horses have one, two or several passports, one of which supporter of it; we are only 52% self-sufficient in meat, is clean and says that the horse has not been injected so there is much more that we could do. Production of with anything, and another one of which may have been poultry and pigs in particular can be built up quickly, used when the horse has been injected with various but again, we must ensure that we have enough premises drugs throughout its life. We need a better passport where they can be produced. system and a central database so that we know where Many more people now ensure that they buy locally horses come from, to ensure that when they are slaughtered, produced and British food, which is a great asset, but I we know that they are healthy. Although we may not eat also want them to be sure—again, this is a lesson to be the meat, it will be exported for someone else to eat. It is learned—that when they go into a big retailer or other essential. shop, they can pick up a product, especially a processed I believe that some good things will come out of this product, and be absolutely certain where it has come situation. As other Members have said, it would have from. Sometimes my wife comes back with a product been terrible if the contamination had led to a public that she presents to me and says, “Where does that health issue, but fortunately it did not. One or two come from?” I read the label and it is more confusing horses slaughtered were found to have levels of than enlightening about where it has come from. I urge phenylbutazone, but not enough to hurt anybody eating the Minister, newly in post, to realise that labelling of the meat. We must learn to ensure that horse meat is country of origin—knowing where a product is from—is traceable in future, not because it should be mixed with fundamentally important. If it has been imported, so be beef and sold fraudulently but because the meat should it, but say so. If products are from all over the world, be safe. fine, but say so, so that people have a choice. I do not The other great lesson to be learned concerns the like the old system that states “product of the EU” and traceability of our own meat. People like farm-assured “processed in the UK”, and displays a Union Jack. schemes, such as the red tractor promoted by the National Everybody picks it up, convinced that it is entirely a Farmers Union and many others. As soon as horsegate—the British product, when it is not. It is perfectly legal to do problem with horse meat in beef burgers— occurred, that, and that is what happens. people wanted meat from this country. I do not wish to With the reports that we have had and what we have be churlish, but Tesco did not decide to source all its heard, we would all accept, to a degree, that we got meat from the British Isles out of the goodness of its away with it. It was not perfect, but we got away with it, heart; it decided that that was a good way to make despite the fact that it was a fraud and we were eating consumers buy at Tesco. horse when we should have been eating beef. However, nobody was injured. We need to wake up to the fact that Roger Williams: Was my hon. Friend amazed, like horse meat and slaughter need to be much more traceable. me, to hear that Tesco has said that British lamb is now When people pick up products, particularly processed out of season? I find that extraordinary, given that the foods, they need to know exactly where they have come UK produces lamb in season all year round. from. We want to ensure that the supermarkets that genuinely want to have British products are stocking Neil Parish: The fact is that for most grass-fed lamb them and that they have not come from somewhere else from Wales, the west country and other parts of the in the world. We expect our Minister, newly in post, to country, the height of the season is exactly now, from guarantee that all that will happen. September onwards. When I used to produce lambs, I did not feed them a lot of concentrates; I fattened them We can learn positive lessons. The fact that people on grass, and they came out in September, October and now want to eat more home-produced meat is a good November. Whoever put out that particular press release thing. Let us be absolutely certain in future that that is probably got it slightly wrong. exactly what we are eating. Although Government have a responsibility, so do the large retailers and the processors That takes me back to the fact that although Tesco that manufacture and process the products. They are wants to source British meat, which I welcome, it does the ones that acted illegally. Let us not forget that, so from a commercial point of view. Therefore, having whoever was at fault, it was illegal. It was fraud. systems in place to ensure the traceability of that meat is important. However, there is also a knock-on effect. Finally, although I agree with the other hon. Members At a certain conference in Manchester—I will not mention who have spoken, I fear that in the end we will find one which one it was—I was talking to the poultry industry. or two small processors here and there who will be hung Again, Tesco has decided to source all its poultry meat out to dry, and the rest of the larger processors and from the UK, which is great, but the problem is that it is others will largely be left untouched. Certainly the Irish absorbing all the poultry meat that we produce, so we Government have been rather reticent about prosecuting need to produce more. In order to produce more poultry anybody. I think that that is the tactful way of putting meat, of course, we need more poultry units, and in it. Also—the point was made earlier—when a member order to build more poultry units we need planning state of the European Union is having a problem, it permission. All those things have a knock-on effect. should be brought to the notice of our authorities and others much more quickly so that we can take action. It is the same with the pig industry. We need more There was definitely a slowness in the whole process. I pigs and pork so, again, we need planning permission. look forward to the new Minister sorting it all out, and Those Members who represent rural constituents will I again welcome him to his new post. find that when a piggery or a poultry house must be built next door, individuals do not always welcome it with open arms. I understand that the Minister is not 4.3 pm responsible for planning, but the Department for Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): It is a delight to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs should make the be here, as always. I congratulate the hon. Member for case if we are to have more British meat. I am a great Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) and all her Committee 349WH Food Contamination17 OCTOBER 2013 Food Contamination 350WH

[Huw Irranca-Davies] while criminal investigations are ongoing, to delve too deeply into specific companies and individuals. I think members on securing this debate and on the sterling the public and consumer organisations will be rightly work that they have put in throughout this year. As a outraged if the criminals who infiltrated the supply critical friend of the industry and of Government, they chain are not brought to book. If complicity or duplicity have scrutinised the causes and effects of and response is identified within the supply chain itself, those companies to the food contamination scandal in a frank and and individuals should also be brought to book. honest way. It is a great pleasure to follow the contributions from Miss McIntosh: It would be interesting to know what the hon. Members for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger the hon. Gentleman’s potential future Administration Williams) and for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish). would do to check the integrity of the supply chain. I They have great experience in terms of their personal am mindful of the fact that it was a Labour Government backgrounds and in terms of Select Committees. The who set up the Food Standards Agency, and one of the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton made the point difficulties that I highlighted is that it reports to at least that we got away with it. That is the point that we want two, potentially three, Departments. I take the hon. to focus on. It is not adequate to say that we got away Gentleman’s point about the retailers, but we rely hugely with it. We need to ensure that, within the realms of all on the work of the FSA to test the supply chain. the identifiable risks that we can think of, we do not simply get away with it again. We need to put the right things in place to avoid it happening again. As has Huw Irranca-Davies: I welcome the hon. Lady’s rightly been pointed out, fortunately there was not a intervention and the focus that she and the Select Committee major public safety scare, although there could have have put on not only the FSA, but the overall issue of been. This was an issue of provenance. We need a food governance and the integrity and coherence of it. fleet-footed response from all the agencies and Government We have repeatedly made it clear from the early days and everybody else. when its responsibilities were split up that we had concerns about what might happen. Her Committee’s I also welcome to his new position as Under-Secretary report and the report of the National Audit Office have of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the made it clear that those concerns did not cause the hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth— crisis, but contributed to a delayed reaction, which I will come to in a moment. There is confusion at national, TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, local and intergovernmental level. I shall not call for a Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson) indicated dissent. review today. I shall echo her call for action and for the Government to introduce proposals to change the structure Huw Irranca-Davies: My apologies. I was expecting of food governance. to see the other new Minister. I welcome the Under- Tesco, the UK’s market-leading supermarket, notably Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural and admirably fessed up to its responsibilities. It said, Affairs, the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan “We get it.” It took out full-page advertisements Rogerson). It is a great position and a great Department. coinciding—coincidentally, I am sure—with the NFU I am sure he will do a wonderful job. I am beginning to conference in February, and it is seeking to re-engineer think that DEFRA Ministers have taken against me as its supply chains and get closer to primary producers. It they keep disappearing in front of me. His previous role has a way to go, as has already been mentioned. I visited as a member of the Environment, Food and Rural Tesco’s headquarters and we went through this in detail. Affairs Committee stands him in good stead. As I draw Although it has a journey to make, I do not doubt its on evidence and recommendations from the Committee’s sincerity and ambition to do so. It is consumer-focused; two reports, I am conscious that he is a collective author there is a reason why it is doing this. Other large of those words, findings and recommendations. retailers have already developed shorter supply chains or other methods of ensuring the provenance of their Dan Rogerson: One of the reports. food. In the early stages, many took a different approach Huw Irranca-Davies: The Minister is a collective author and frankly said, “Not us, guvnor.” They pointed to of one of the reports, and there is no way in which he abroad or to smaller suppliers, international criminals, would seek, for whatever reason—under pressure from other third parties and, frankly, anybody but themselves. officials or his Secretary of State, or the lure of the red It is clear that the criminal activities of some have box or the trappings of a Minister—to resile from the damaged public confidence in the whole supply chain. positions that he laid out so very recently. He is a good The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee and honourable man and will stand by his words. spoke for many in the country, when it reported that it could only This is a timely debate to look back at the lessons learnt to try to avoid repeating the same mistakes and to “conclude that British consumers have been cynically and return confidence to an industry that was shaken badly. systematically duped in pursuit of profit by elements within the To put it bluntly, consumers were tricked, deceived and food industry.” defrauded by criminals operating within or alongside Whether that was criminality, negligence, complicity or the food chain. It is the same food supply chain that we failure of due diligence through the whole supply, from trust to supply safe, nutritious, affordable food and major processors and supermarkets down to the very drink to our household tables, our schools and hospitals, small players, all were to varying degrees at fault in and our care homes and cafeterias. That supply chain causing the failures, and all have responsibility in rectifying betrayed us—nothing less. It would be wrong, particularly them and restoring trust and confidence. 351WH Food Contamination17 OCTOBER 2013 Food Contamination 352WH

I welcome the letter that I received yesterday from who is only just in post, but by his coalition Government. ABP, a dominant player in the UK and European beef They are the architect of their own misfortune, but processing market, which tells me that it supplies more more importantly, of what others have described as the than 20 countries and has a network of over 15,000 flat-footed response to the food adulteration scandal. farmers. In the letter, the company acknowledges—it The food sector and the consumer deserve better. It is cannot deny—the presence of horsemeat in some of its not the fault of the FSA, but of the Government who frozen beef products over the past year, but states: split its responsibilities. “It was certainly not an activity sanctioned by ABP in any way at any level”. Neil Parish: I accept, to some degree, the hon. It goes on to make it clear that the company is not Gentleman’s assertions about changes to the FSA, but subject to any ongoing investigations. there had been no testing of horsemeat for 10 years or In some ways, it is unfair to pick out ABP, because it more, and the situation arose only when we started was not alone in a complex and vulnerable supply chain testing horsemeat. What matters is not the structure, that put beef adulterated with horsemeat and, for good but the fact that we were just not testing. All through his measure, with trace elements—thank goodness, only watch and that of his Government, nobody was testing trace elements—of phenylbutazone or bute into our horsemeat. That is why I think that he is being a little homes, hospitals, schools and canteens, as well as, through disingenuous, if I may say so. food distribution companies, into Royal Ascot and the royal household. When it comes to food adulteration, Huw Irranca-Davies: I utterly refute the idea of my we are genuinely—and right royally—all in it together. being disingenuous, because I am citing the words, As the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton said, evidence and recommendations of the Select Committee those who came out well from the crisis were the butchers, and National Audit Office reports. The criticisms are local abattoirs, and those in local food networks and not mine, although I entirely agree with them, because short supply chains, whose customers could prove where we said the same from the outset, after the FSA was their food came from and what it was. The upside of the split up. I am not being disingenuous, but frank: I am crisis is that it has reignited a major debate about our saying what I have consistently said month after month, relationship with the food we eat, which I hope will lead and year after year, and that is what our position has to changes in how we produce and value our food. been. Much of the modern supply chain is long, complex I understand what the hon. Gentleman says, but I am and international, with multiple handling and processing hammering the Government because the issue of operations and multiple opportunities for adulteration. governance is central to how we resolve the situation. The lesson for those in wider supply chains, especially We can ask the industry to do many things—we have the major and dominant supermarkets, processors and done so, and the industry is getting on with them—and distributors, is that no one can escape responsibility for agencies are helping it, but unless we resolve the the mess we got ourselves into or avoid responsibility fundamental issue of how to bring together the entirety for restoring trust in those supply chains. It is not good of the food industry coherently and not split it between enough to say, “It wasn’t us, guvnor,” because as far as Departments, we will be back here again. That is what the consumer is concerned, it was. his Committee concluded. I want to turn to the issues of food governance The Government response to the concerns is worryingly identified by the Select Committee’s two reports and complacent. The document states, on page 7: highlighted in a timely report by the National Audit “The Government is concerned that the Committee may have Office, on 10 October, entitled, “Food safety and misunderstood the status and constitution of the FSA”, authenticity in the processed meat supply chain”. and it then defends the FSA in the following three I tell the Minister that the Government must clearly paragraphs. If the Select Committee has misunderstood now take responsibility: they are also in the dock and the FSA, so have the National Audit Office and many must fess up. They must answer criticisms of their role other well-informed, critical friends of the food industry in failing to ensure effective governance of the food who want the Government to look more fundamentally manufacturing sector. Although I commend the industry at the FSA and to review the cack-handed way in which for working alongside UK, Irish and EU agencies to its responsibilities were diced and sliced in 2010. strengthen the testing and tracking of food products in The Government should adopt the Tesco approach: response to the horsemeat crisis, I cannot yet commend fess up to this aspect of their responsibility, learn the the UK Government, whose response to the crisis was lessons that they must learn and deal properly with the hampered by structural problems of their own making. role of the FSA and food governance, instead of tinkering The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, at the edges. It takes a big man or woman to accept that of which the Minister was a member, put that succinctly they were wrong, but I hope that the new Minister, in in its first report, stating that whom I have confidence, will be able to do so. “the current contamination crisis has caught the FSA and Government Let me ask the Minister some questions that stem flat-footed and unable to respond effectively within structures designed primarily to respond to threats to human health.” from the Select Committee and National Audit Office reports. Coming new into the post, does he accept, from The National Audit Office’s No. 1 key finding was: what he has looked at, that the Government’s and the “A split since 2010 in the responsibilities for food policy in FSA’s early response to the crisis was flat-footed and England has led to confusion among stakeholders and no obvious slow, as has been said, partly thanks to the Government’s benefit to those implementing controls.” machinery of government changes? Does he accept that That split in responsibilities is, of course, the one that the Government’s decision to split the FSA roles directly was devised and implemented in 2010 not by the Minister, led to confusion and a lack of clarity about responsibilities 353WH Food Contamination17 OCTOBER 2013 Food Contamination 354WH

[Huw Irranca-Davies] In conclusion, while Labour rightly demands—I know the Minister will demand this as well—that the food at the outset of the crisis, both between Whitehall sector step up and take responsibility for its failures and Departments and agencies and between local government commends the sector for the work it has done so far in enforcement and the FSA? recent months, it also demands the same response from Does the Minister accept that, as highlighted by the our Government. The sins of the father do not have to National Audit Office, confusion at local and national be visited on the son. The new Under-Secretary of State level still exists today, despite the Government’s well- can acknowledge that the 2010 FSA machinery of meaning reforms, which signifies that deeper reforms or government changes were wrong-headed, that they played the unwinding of some of the 2010 reforms might be a contributory factor in retarding the early response to needed? Does he accept that, despite strong Government the crisis, that they are a risk factor, as the NAO says, in rebuttals back in February and March, the introduction any future large-scale food adulteration or contamination of the banned substance phenylbutazone or bute into episodes, and that he should now step up and act for the the food chain via horsemeat, albeit in trace elements, good of consumers, the food sector and farmers and for might have turned the situation from a food provenance his own peace of mind. Last week, the head of the issue into a food safety crisis? If he does not accept that, National Audit Office said: I ask him to read the National Audit Office report. “The Government needs to remove this confusion, and improve How does the Minister respond to criticisms that its understanding of potential food fraud and how intelligence is brought together and shared.” intelligence-sharing, especially between food authorities and Departments in Ireland and the UK, has been I look forward to the Under-Secretary of State doing weakened by the coalition’s machinery of government just that, beginning with his response. I wish him well in changes? Does he believe that reducing food testing by taking forward the Government’s action on this matter. local authorities by a quarter, linked to cuts in funding and budgetary stresses, contributed to a lack of deeper Sandra Osborne (in the Chair): The debate must end intelligence from local sources that might have picked by 16.43, and it would be appreciated if the Minister up the risks earlier? To turn to the point made by the would leave some time at the end for the Chair of the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton in his intervention, Select Committee to respond. one of the things that the National Audit Office picked up on was the lack of deep intelligence down on the 4.23 pm ground. Although it applauds a risk-based approach, deep intelligence would have flagged up these sorts of TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, incidents at an early stage. Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson): It is a pleasure, How does the Minister respond to fears that the Mrs Osborne, to serve under your chairmanship and to closure of four public control laboratories in the past stand here as both a Minister and a member of the three years combined with a reduction in public analysts Select Committee—at least in name, if not in application. from 40 to 29 since 2010 raises the potential risk that we The House will remove me from the Committee in due will be unable to respond to any future incident of this course. type? Before I get on to substantive matters, let me say that My final question echoes a concern of the Select it has been an absolute pleasure and an honour to serve Committee and of the wider public. Where are the on that Committee for more than eight years, under the prosecutions, the fines, the penalties, the custodial sentences, excellent chairmanship of the hon. Member for Thirsk and the naming and shaming of the guilty parties? I and Malton (Miss McIntosh) and also of Michael Jack, realise that the Minister will not be able to go into detail who did fine work as Chair of the Committee in the about the ongoing investigations, but we need to know previous Parliament. It is also a pleasure to follow all whether we are talking about one or two bad apples or a those who spoke in this debate; they spoke with passion fundamental problem with a rotten barrel. The Select and brought insight. I may not agree with all the conclusions Committee asks whether this is that the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) has drawn, but I pay tribute none the less to his experience “a complex network of traders and processors acting fraudulently to deceive consumers and retailers.” and the care that he has taken in preparing for this debate. As he knows, I have family roots in his constituency, The longer we wait for conclusions to the investigations, so it is always a pleasure to hear from him. the more the feeling grows that people are escaping justice and that the networks that caused this criminality I am grateful to the Chair of the Select Committee are also delaying that justice. We cannot expect the and colleagues for securing this debate, so that we can Minister to comment in detail on investigations that are explore this issue in some depth. As highlighted, the under way, but I hope that he can at least inform us of incident has been the subject of a number of reviews some progress. and reports, which reflects the level of public concern and the fact that it is essential that consumers have At the outset, I reiterated the justified criticism by the confidence in the food that they buy or are served. Select Committee of the flat-footed response by the FSA and the Government. Its call for stronger powers Food fraud is completely unacceptable, and that is for the FSA were re-emphasised by the head of the what we are dealing with here. Consumers have every National Audit Office only last week. He stated: right to expect food to be correctly described. It is up to the whole food supply chain to ensure that such an “The January 2013 horsemeat incident has revealed a gap between what citizens expect of the controls over the authenticity incident does not happen again. As the Committee’s of their food, and the effectiveness of those controls on reality. report says, industry’s assurance measures and the action The division of responsibilities for food safety and authenticity it takes to ensure the traceability of products are key to has created confusion.” a sustainable food chain. 355WH Food Contamination17 OCTOBER 2013 Food Contamination 356WH

As the Committee is aware, the industry is taking its the FSAI stated that it was “surprised” by the results own steps to build consumer confidence. Although the and retested and reconfirmed the results before informing Government should not be closely supervising the industry its Government officials and Ministers. or limiting its ability to react to market signals, they do Once the presence of horsemeat in beef products had have a role in helping to restore consumer confidence been identified as potential fraud, rather than unintended and in enforcing EU law. contamination, the UK’s response to the incident was To help restore consumer confidence, the Government rapid and extensive—more rapid and extensive than have encouraged industry to continue to give high priority that of any other member state. An unprecedented level to the testing of processed meat products and the of testing was carried out quickly by industry and local sharing of information. More than 36,000 industry test authorities, the results of which were communicated to results have been reported, covering manufacturing, consumers and shared with the Commission and other processing, retail, catering and food service, which European countries. It is to the credit of the industry demonstrates the seriousness with which the industry is and enforcement officers that that activity was carried taking the need to remain vigilant and to restore consumer out at pace and effectively, and to UK laboratories’ confidence in its food. credit that they demonstrated the ability to up their The Government agree that they have a role in working capacity to meet demands. with businesses from across the food supply chain to identify ways to strengthen the industry and to enable it Huw Irranca-Davies: I commend the Minister for to respond to the challenges and opportunities that it making a very good first stab at it; I know that he will faces. Regular meetings are being held, chaired by my be excellent in this role—I genuinely mean that. However, right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, to ensure that I want to clarify that he is now distancing himself firmly British food is recognised for its rigorous standards and from the recommendations and findings of the Committee traceability and that our farmers and producers do not and the National Audit Office. He is turning 180°. get a bad reputation as a result of incidents such as the one involving horsemeat. Dan Rogerson: I am seeking areas of common ground between the two—between the Committee and the NAO. Research shows that in the wake of the horsemeat Having had the opportunity to discuss this matter with incident, UK consumers have a greater level of trust in officials in preparation for this debate, having looked at British produce, and the industry must welcome and the report from the Committee of which I was a member, build on that. That point was made by my hon. Friends having looked at the other report that the hon. Gentleman the Members for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) mentioned and having sought the evidence, what is clear and for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), as to me as a Minister is the important distinction between well as my hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee the notification that a test was being developed and the in her opening remarks. discovery that horsemeat had been found. That is an During the incident, the Government’s role focused important distinction. on working with industry and local authorities to establish The Government share the Committee’s desire to see the scale of the problem, investigating and taking those responsible for the situation brought to justice. I enforcement action against those responsible and prompting note the Committee’s concerns about the pace of those action at a European level to deal with some issues that investigations and the number of arrests. However, it is have again been raised today. Our focus is now on a criminal matter and so is being dealt with by the learning and sharing the lessons from the incident and prosecuting authorities—not something in which the on improving the current approach to food authenticity Government should intervene. However, the police Gold and fraud. Group, chaired by the City of London police, is taking The UK Government reacted quickly when they were the matter very seriously and the necessary steps are alerted to the presence of horsemeat in beef products being taken. on sale in the UK by the Food Safety Authority of Another point to make is that if we wanted a faster Ireland. That is backed up by the findings of the Troop response, we might well have ended up with lesser fines, review, mentioned by the Committee Chairman and of the sort that Members have been concerned about others, into the FSA’s response to the incident. today. We would have had a local authority response at The Committee has questioned whether the FSA a lower level, which would have been swifter but would should have done something sooner when the Food perhaps not have picked up on the issues. I want to Safety Authority of Ireland mentioned that it was reassure Members present here that these investigations developing testing methods to detect horsemeat. I would are live, that—as we know—arrests have been made and like to clarify that a competent authority in another that these matters are being taken very seriously. However, member state informing the UK that it is planning to it would not be proper for me to seek to jump to develop a detection method is not the same as a member conclusions ahead of the report on those investigations. state informing the UK that it has found evidence of We will continue to share information from the UK contamination or food fraud. We would hope and expect with Europol and other enforcing authorities, and we that any intelligence that another member state had are mindful that a number of businesses in the UK have would be shared with us at that juncture. Nothing was been victims of this fraud and will also be keen to see brought to the Government’s attention at that point; it action taken against those responsible. People along the was only that the FSAI was developing a test. chain could be said to have been victims of the fraud. Just as we have a programme of work to develop As I said, the Government’s focus is on learning from testing to support our enforcement of EU food law, and sharing the lessons from the incident, both through other member states develop methods for testing the formal reviews and internal discussions to strengthen authenticity of food. In its evidence to the Committee, current activities. Following the publication of Professor 357WH Food Contamination17 OCTOBER 2013 Food Contamination 358WH

[Dan Rogerson] Department or to the Department of Health. It is independent, and its independence is welcomed. Obviously, Pat Troop’s review of the FSA’s handling of the incident, that it would be independent was the intention of the the FSA and the Department for Environment, Food previous Government in constituting it. and Rural Affairs are working together to address the Although we are looking to communicate better the issues raised. In particular, they are looking at ways to roles and responsibilities of the FSA and DEFRA, the strengthen and improve intelligence sharing with relevant Government do not accept that machinery of government partners, and to clarify the responsibilities and roles of changes in 2010 impacted on the Government’s handling the two organisations. of the horsemeat incident or on the independent status Horsemeat fraud is unacceptable, but that does not of the FSA. The FSA led the response from day one, mean that the Government were not effectively identifying with DEFRA and the FSA working closely together food contamination and fraud. Meat fraud and product throughout to deliver an effective response. It is right substitution are not new; as my hon. Friend the Member that Government Ministers were held to account for for Tiverton and Honiton pointed out, across the centuries updating Parliament on the situation during the incident; and across the sector as a whole these are things that it is right that Government Ministers took the lead in unscrupulous people have attempted to get away with. initiating action at a European level; and it is also right In 2012, local authorities carried out more than 18,000 that the FSA led on investigating the incident and tests for food authenticity, including tests for meat taking enforcement action. The FSA leads on enforcement, substitution. However, enforcement officers were not and it has in place the necessary framework and looking for the presence of horsemeat. Instead, the relationships with local authorities to instigate sampling focus of testing was for product substitution with more and testing. widely available products, such as chicken and pork. There will always be boundary issues for the What the horsemeat incident has demonstrated is the Government’s interest in food, and it is our responsibility widespread and international nature of food fraud, and to ensure that these issues are understood and that we the need to consider products that are more readily have the measures in place to make them work. The available beyond the UK in order to protect consumer recent horsemeat incident has demonstrated that the confidence. The Government agree that to understand FSA and DEFRA can work together to address issues and robustly assess the risks, we need better intelligence such as food fraud, but we recognise that there is always sharing. The FSA and DEFRA are jointly working to more to be done to ensure that stakeholders understand achieve better intelligence sharing between Government, where those boundaries lie and why, even if they do not industry and local authorities. Intelligence is not solely agree with them. about testing, and given finite resources it is right that As the Select Committee is aware, the Government’s sampling and testing by enforcement bodies should independent review, “Integrity and Assurance of Food remain targeted and risk-based. Supply Networks”, will focus on consumer confidence The increase in the number of reported incidents of in the authenticity of food products, identifying any food fraud demonstrates the effectiveness of that targeting, weaknesses that could have implications for food safety as well as the successful development of detection methods and authenticity. The review will consider the efficiency and the priority given to authenticity. The Government of current frameworks and operations, and I am sure also agree that it is unacceptable for any local authority that stakeholders will have taken the opportunity to not to carry out food standards sampling, and the FSA raise their concerns or highlight issues. will continue to work with local authorities to ensure The Chair of the Select Committee raised the issue of that all of them meet the standards set out in the reviews. It is important to point out that this is a framework agreement. Although we all understand the separate review. The Troop review was into the incident pressures on local government, the matter is very clear itself; this review will now set out where we go from and the FSA has also been clear about working with here, if you like. It is looking at what we need to do to partners in local government to ensure that those standards ensure the integrity of the supply chain right the way are delivered. across, and we look forward to the interim publication The Government recognise that they have a role in of its findings later in the year. horizon-scanning for the “unknown” risks, but this The “Integrity and Assurance of Food Supply Networks” should be done in a manner and on a scale that still review is not only focused on Government but will look represents good value to the taxpayer. That is something at the roles, and responsibilities to consumers, of the that we will need to consider further and it will still need industry, and at what businesses need to do to support to be based on intelligence for it to be justified. We are consumer confidence. That is the point that my hon. already strengthening information sharing between Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton made departments, by linking the emerging risks programme when he was talking about the responsibility of the and the authenticity programme to improve our ability industry. As the Government, we are engaging with this to horizon-scan the next “unknown” risk. The FSA has issue and seeking to reassure people that the food chain also reviewed its own operational structure to give is secure, but ultimately those involved in the food chain greater direction and priority to identifying and combating are responsible for it. They are the ones who are selling food fraud in the future. products to consumers, engaging with producers and On the issue that a number of hon. Members raised taking part in that chain. about the report line for the FSA, we have to be My hon. Friend was absolutely right to raise that absolutely clear that the FSA is a non-ministerial issue; the Government have a role in this process, but we department of Government. It advises other Departments must ensure that it is those who are involved in the and shares information with them, as I have been saying, chain itself who guarantee its integrity. The food industry but it is not subject in any way either to my own is ultimately responsible for making sure that food is 359WH Food Contamination17 OCTOBER 2013 Food Contamination 360WH authentic and meets the required standards expected consumers will respond to it. We insisted, in our conclusions, not only by the Government but most importantly, as that the results of the tests ordered by the FSA should hon. Members have said, by consumers. be submitted to it and that a summary should be I am sure that, as I am, the Committee is looking published on the retailer’s website. forward to seeing Professor Chris Elliott’s interim report There must be change in respect of issuing horse in December. passports. There is a worrying increase in numbers of horses in my county, let alone between Northern Ireland 4.37 pm and southern Ireland. We need to deal with insufficient testing by retailers, Miss McIntosh: I congratulate my hon. Friend on his including supermarkets, especially those who do not do first outing as Minister. There is some common ground it at all. I will be pleased if the Elliott review addresses between us, but there are still areas of disagreement. the issue of analysts. I welcome what the Minister said Nevertheless, we have had a very good debate and about strengthening intelligence sharing. exchange this afternoon. It was remiss of me not to thank all those who Dan Rogerson: I should like to mention a couple of participated in our inquiry, including the witnesses, who points that I did not talk about directly in my remarks. gave both oral and written evidence. I will momentarily The issue of horse passports will be settled at European point out to my hon. Friend the Minister that his name level, but the Government are keen to engage in that is recorded in the formal minutes of both reports and process and see what can be done, as long as it is we were delighted to have his support. proportionate, to ensure that we get it right. The NAO considered capacity in terms of analysts, Dan Rogerson: The hon. Lady is absolutely correct. although it did not say that there was a lack of capacity. When I was responding to the hon. Member for Ogmore The FSA holds that under review, so we will keep a earlier, I thought that he was referring to the NAO close eye on that. report when he talked about “two reports”, rather than the two phases of the work that the Committee did. Miss McIntosh: I am most grateful to the Minister. Although it would be hugely expensive to deal with, Huw Irranca-Davies: Are you in the NAO report as there is concern about abattoirs slaughtering both cattle well? [Laughter.] and horses. We need to be aware of that. Dan Rogerson: No—absolutely not. There is a real issue about the governance and structural problems. I poked fun at the shadow Minister, the hon. Miss McIntosh: Anyway, a week is a long time in Member for Ogmore, about how his Government set politics. the structure up. However, it is possible that we have been seen to compound that situation. We will be able I will just go through some of the points that have to draw a line under this matter only when we can say, been made. Regarding traceability and the supply chain, hand on heart, where contamination, adulteration and I think that the Minister has taken the point, and we lack of authenticity entered into the food chain. The need to process that. sooner we can see prosecutions of the perpetrators from On the issue of insufficient testing, we concluded— the big retailers, the more it will boost consumer confidence. although none of us spelled it out, and it was remiss of I endorse comments made about the processed foods me not to do so—that the FSA at the moment does not that have been a cause of concern. At the heart of our force the industry retailers to carry out testing. It would report was concern about processed foods and frozen be good if we could agree that the Department should foods. look into that and consider giving the FSA a steer on it. Perhaps the Elliott review will do that, and say that I am delighted that the Minister, and the shadow large retailers must carry out regular DNA testing of Minister, gave us a hearing today. meat ingredients for frozen and processed meat products, Question put and agreed to. with the cost being borne by themselves—the industry—and not by the consumers. That point has been echoed by 4.42 pm hon. Members throughout the debate and I think that Sitting adjourned.

63WS Written Statements17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 64WS Written Statements Child Poverty Commission (Annual Report)

Thursday 17 October 2013 The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): I, in collaboration with the Deputy Prime Minister and the TREASURY Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, wish to inform the House of the publication of the annual Tax Policy Consultation and Draft Legislation report by the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission “State of the Nation: social mobility and child poverty in Great Britain”. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David The report sets out the views of the Commission on Gauke): The Government’s approach to developing tax the progress made toward the goals of improving social policy emphasises the benefits of policy consultation mobility and reducing child poverty in the United Kingdom. and legislative scrutiny. It also includes a description of the measures that have Following Budget 2013, the Government have engaged been taken by the devolved Administrations in Scotland with interested parties, seeking their views on more and Wales. than 30 areas of tax policy. The next stage of consultation The Government welcome the report and the aims to ensure that the legislation works as intended. Commission’s contribution to these important issues. Draft clauses to be included in Finance Bill 2014 will We will consider their recommendations and our response be published on 10 December 2014, together with responses in due course. to policy consultation, explanatory notes and tax The report will be laid in Parliament and published information and impact notes. The consultation on the later today. The report will be available at www.Gov.uk/ draft legislation will be open until 4 February 2014. SMCPC.

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS

Low Pay Commission: National Minimum Wage ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): I am pleased to Agricultural and Fisheries Council announce that the Government have written to the Low Pay Commission setting out what we would like the Commission to consider on the national minimum wage. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and The document contains the Government’s interim evidence Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): The next Agriculture on economic and non-economic issues, including the and Fisheries Council is on Thursday 17 October in minimum wage rates and the youth labour market. An Luxembourg. The Under-Secretary of State for updated version of the evidence will be published later Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend when the latest information on earnings and economic the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), forecasts will be included. will be representing the UK. Richard Lochhead MSP A copy of the evidence will be placed in the Libraries may also attend. of both Houses and will be available at: www.gov.uk. The Council will concentrate on fisheries items. There are no agricultural items scheduled for this Council. The agenda items are as follows: EDUCATION Council regulation fixing the 2014 fishing opportunities for certain fish stocks and groups of fish stocks applicable in the Contingency Liability Baltic sea EU /Norway: annual consultation for 2014 The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic In line with normal practice I would like to inform the Tunas (ICCAT) annual meeting— exchange of views House that while in the summer recess, my Department AOB item: north-east Atlantic mackerel management and provided an indemnity to the Church Commissioners coastal state negotiations for England, in order to secure a lease arrangement on its site for CET primary school, Westminster, from September 2013 until 31 March 2017. Bovine TB Such an indemnity would normally be notified in advance to Parliament but since the need was identified during recess, officials wrote to the right hon. Member The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and for Barking (Margaret Hodge) as Chair of the Committee Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): This Government of Public Accounts, copied to my hon. Friend the are committed to ensuring we have a comprehensive Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) as package of measures to tackle bovine TB (bTB), including Chair of the Education Select Committee on 21 August a carefully managed and science-led policy of badger 2013, informing them of the proposed indemnity. control in areas with high incidence of TB in cattle. I inform the House today of the indemnity provided I am updating the House following the completion of and a departmental minute, which sets out the detail of the six-week control pilot in Gloucestershire on 15 October. the indemnity, has been laid in both Houses. This is further to my statement of 9 October, in which I 65WS Written Statements17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 66WS informed the House that Natural England was considering, The framework sets out the detail of the UK’s interests and has since granted, a short extension to the pilot in in the Arctic, how we will work with Arctic states and Somerset to improve the disease benefits already achieved. the wider international community, and what expertise As previously announced, the badger population in the UK can offer to help meet some of the long-term Gloucestershire immediately before the pilot began was challenges facing the region. estimated to have fallen to 2,350 compared with an In doing so, we will respect the sovereign rights of the estimated population of 3,400 last summer. In the six Arctic states to exercise jurisdiction over their territory; weeks of the pilot 708 badgers have been removed from the views and interests of people who live and work in this population. This represents just over 30% of the the Arctic; and the Arctic environment, its fragility and local badger population. its central importance to the global climate. In view of this, the chief veterinary officer (CVO) has We will work towards an Arctic that is safe and advised that the period of culling this year should be secure; well-governed in conjunction with indigenous extended to achieve the earliest and greatest possible peoples and international law. We will promote Arctic impact on bTB in Gloucestershire. Natural England is policies that are developed on the basis of sound science therefore considering an application for an extension and have full regard to the environment. We will promote from the cull company in Gloucestershire. an Arctic where only responsible development takes The pilots held this year are the first stage in a place. planned four-year cull. Three of the areas of the randomised We will support the Arctic Council as the pre-eminent badger culling trial also had a slow start. These areas regional forum for discussing Arctic issues and actively saw an increase in the numbers of badgers removed in encourage wider dialogue on Arctic matters of global subsequent years and went on to contribute to overall importance. We will promote UK Arctic science, encourage disease benefits. more international collaboration and continue to fund I have always been clear that both the Somerset and top-class research to increase understanding of the Gloucestershire culls are pilots. This has enabled us to changes in the Arctic. We will play a leading role in test the safety, humaneness and effectiveness of controlled diplomatic efforts to avoid dangerous climate change shooting as a means of reducing badger numbers and and support the principle of designating Marine Protected so reduce significantly disease in cattle. Having the two Areas in international waters where science supports it. separate pilot areas has similarly enabled us to see how We will facilitate responsible business activity in the different environmental factors, field and other conditions region by UK companies and advocate for the highest affect the practical delivery of our objectives. Experience environmental and drilling standards. gained on the ground has been invaluable. I would like Fundamentally, leadership for Arctic stewardship rests to pay tribute to the local farmers and landowners who with the eight Arctic states and the peoples within those are undertaking the cull, often in difficult terrain and states. However, where appropriate we will show leadership weather, and often in the face of intimidation by a small on Arctic matters of global importance, such as minority who are determined to stop this disease control understanding the effects of Arctic climate change on policy. global processes, and we will work co-operatively with After the independent panel of experts has reported, Arctic states and other international partners on issues we will consider all the information these pilots have that affect UK interests in the fields of governance, generated and decide on next steps. The early indications environment and commerce. are that, as in Somerset, the pilot in Gloucestershire has I have placed copies of the Arctic policy framework been safe and humane. Nevertheless, the Gloucestershire in the Libraries of both Houses. It is also available on: pilot has again demonstrated that the cull period may https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/adapting- need to be longer than six weeks in future, enabling to-change-uk-policy-towards-the-arctic. teams to adapt their approaches to suit local circumstances. These pilots are another step towards halting the spread of bTB. We continue to make good progress on EU-Ukraine Association Agreement all aspects of our draft strategy to eradicate the disease in England within 25 years, including the development of workable badger and cattle vaccines and better biosecurity on farms. Collectively, we are putting in The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I wish place the necessary measures for the successful long-term to inform the House that the Government have opted in eradication of bTB in the UK. to the following measures: (i) the Council decision on the signing, on behalf of the EU, and provisional application of an association agreement between the EU and its member states, and Ukraine. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (ii) the Council decision on the conclusion of the association agreement between the EU and its member states, and “Adapting To Change: UK policy towards the Arctic” Ukraine. The EU-Ukraine association agreement, including a deep and comprehensive free trade area, will deepen The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and broaden the political and economic relationship and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds): I would between the EU, its member states, and Ukraine. The like to inform the House that the Foreign and agreement process supports and encourages reform in Commonwealth Office is today publishing the Ukraine to bring it closer to EU norms, as well giving Government’s Arctic policy framework, “Adapting To Ukraine gradual access to parts of the EU internal Change: UK policy towards the Arctic”. market. 67WS Written Statements17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 68WS

UK Government policy is to support a closer relationship The Council agreed to the proposed extension until between the EU and Ukraine, while continuing to make 2024 on the regulation establishing a joint undertaking clear to Ukraine that they need to deliver demonstrable to develop the new generation European air traffic improvements. We have not yet taken a decision on management system (SESAR). whether to recommend signature of the agreement which The Council agreed three general approaches on: is dependent on sufficient progress on reform by Ukraine. railway safety; multi-annual funding in respect of the I underlined all of these points during my September European Maritime Safety Agency; and the Galileo visit to Ukraine. GNSS Agency. The Council decisions relate to an agreement which On the proposal for a recast directive on railway contains provisions relating to the temporary movement safety (part of the 4th railway package), the Commission of natural persons for business purposes—known as had originally proposed that the European Railway “mode 4” trade in services—and the readmission of Agency should undertake all approvals, but the presidency’s third country nationals, thus triggering the UK Justice compromise proposal included a similar model to the and Home Affairs opt-in. I believe it is in the UK’s general approach on the recast directive on railway interest to opt in to these measures, which are an interoperability agreed at the June Transport Council integral part of our wider approach on trade and support for the issue of the single safety certificate. This included our other commitments in services and investment the UK’s proposal to give applicants a choice to use liberalisation. national safety authorities where operations would be restricted to one member state. The proposal for a directive on multi-annual funding TRANSPORT for the action of the European Maritime Safety Agency was agreed following the withdrawal of the remaining reservations. EU Transport Council The proposal for a regulation setting up the European GNSS Agency which will play a central role in improving the governance and management of the EU’s satellite The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport navigations systems, Galileo and EGNOS, was also (Mr Robert Goodwill): I attended the first Transport agreed. Council of the Lithuanian presidency (the presidency) in Luxembourg on Thursday 10 October. Under any other business, the Commission reported on the outcome of the International Civil Aviation The Council held an orientation debate on the proposal Organisation assembly in relation to the aviation emissions amending regulation (EC) No. 261/2004 establishing trading scheme. The Commission noted that the common rules on compensation and assistance to commitment to the development of a global market-based passengers in the event of denied boarding and of measure for agreement by 2016, to be implemented by cancellation or long delay of flights, and regulation 2020, was a major success for the EU. I strongly welcomed (EC) No. 2027/97 on air carrier liability in respect of the the commitment to a global market-based measure. carriage of passengers and their baggage. The presidency However, I pointed out that the EU needed to consider invited responses to questions posed on compensation next steps in light of the outcome of the ICAO Assembly, for missed connections and whether compensation should and in particular the need to avoid hostile reactions be time/distance-based or linked to the price of the from third countries. ticket. I expressed concern that the inclusion of connecting flights in the text would impact negatively upon interlining The Commission updated Ministers on a developing agreements, reduce regional connectivity, increase capacity situation where Russia is likely to commence requesting problems at airports and place the EU sector at a passenger data from EU airlines from 1 December competitive disadvantage. I stated that the priority should 2013, and reported on the system for monitoring, reporting be to agree the five, nine and 12-hour trigger points for and verification (MRV) of greenhouse gas emissions when compensation is due. The time/distance-based from international maritime transport. approach to compensation should be maintained. I also Spain reported on the recent train accident at Santiago took the opportunity to make some other points on the de Compostela and will be focusing on the overhaul of proposal—I stressed that extraordinary circumstances standards and technical improvements, as well as assistance should not be limited to two flights, and that the provisions to those affected by the accident. Investigation into the should not cover other transport modes. accident is currently ongoing.

801W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 802W Written Answers to TRANSPORT Billing

Questions Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many invoices were processed by his Department Thursday 17 October 2013 in the last financial year for which figures are available. [171195]

Stephen Hammond: I refer my hon. Friend to my PRIME MINISTER answer of 10 October 2013, Official Report, column 336W.

Canada Blue Badge Scheme

Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Prime Minister Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for what recent discussions he has had with the Canadian Transport how many people previously in possession of Prime Minister on (a) the Commonwealth Heads of a Blue Badge have been rejected since the introduction Government meeting in Colombo in November 2013 of the new guidelines set by his Department. [170929] and (b) the role of the Commonwealth in promoting human rights. [171243] Mr Goodwill: I am unable to provide this figure. Accurate data could be provided only by individual The Prime Minister: I have spoken to the Prime local authorities, although it is unlikely that they would Minister of Canada about the Commonwealth Heads be able to distinguish whether a rejection was on the of Government meeting in Colombo on a number of basis of revised guidance or the introduction of independent occasions including when we met on 13 June, following mobility assessors, which are both now in operation. his address to both Houses of Parliament. We have The Government has not changed the underlying eligibility discussed the shared values of the Commonwealth and criteria but has sought to ensure that the statutory reaffirmed the importance we attach to the Commonwealth regulations are applied fairly so that badges go to those adhering to those core values. The UK firmly believes with the greatest difficulty in walking. The final decision that the Commonwealth can continue to be a force for on all applications rests with the local authority. good around the world, promoting freedom, democracy First Great Western and human rights. The meeting in Colombo will turn the spotlight on Sri Lanka. I will take a very tough message to the Sri Lankan Government: that they to John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for make progress on human rights. Transport (1) what public subsidy has been paid to First Great Western Ltd for the Great Western passenger rail Ministers: Official Secrets franchise in each year that this train operating company has held that contract; [170868] Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Prime Minister what (2) what public subsidy was paid to First Great mechanisms are in place to ensure that an individual Western Ltd for the Great Western passenger rail franchise whom it is proposed to appoint to sensitive ministerial in each year of that company’s previous contract. positions is screened for reliability in the handling of [170878] classified information; and if he will make a statement. [170487] Stephen Hammond: Details of the aggregate level of Government financial support to, and income from, the The Prime Minister: Ministers are bound by the strict rail industry dating back to 1985-86, is published on the duties of confidentiality and propriety set out in the Office of Rail Regulation’s (ORR) website at: Ministerial Code, and are subject to the Official Secrets http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/ Act. They are briefed by security specialists within their In addition, detailed historic information on franchise Departments about how to handle sensitive information payments and premiums in respect of individual train on appointment. operating companies dating back to 1999-2000 is also available on the ORR’s website. Sri Lanka John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Prime Minister Transport what the estimated total value will be to (a) when he last discussed (a) human rights in Sri Lanka the public purse and (b) First Great Western Limited and (b) the recommendations of the Lessons Learnt of the planned investment in (i) rolling stock on and Reconciliation Commission with Sri Lankan Thames Valley routes, (ii) capacity on the existing high President Rajapaksa. [171242] speed train fleet and (iii) smart ticketing on the Great Western line between October 2013 and September The Prime Minister: I have raised human rights in Sri 2015; and if he will make a statement. [170872] Lanka and the recommendations of the Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation Commission with President Rajapaksa Stephen Hammond: The announcement of 3 October previously and will do so again during the Commonwealth 2013 said that the Department for Transport would Heads of Government Meeting. The Government continues work with First Great Western on these three matters to regularly raise our concerns on human rights at both ″over the next two years″. At this stage the value of ministerial and official levels. these matters has not been estimated. 803W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 804W

Great Western Railway Line John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what the punctuality score for passenger rail services on the Great Western main line has been in John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for each year since 1997-98; and what comparative assessment Transport (1) what the cost was of negotiations between he has made of such figures and that of (a) other his Department and First Greater Western Limited on operators of inter-city passenger services and (b) the the extension to 20 September 2015 of the rail passenger national average in each such year. [170874] service contract for the Great Western line; whether he expects further costs to arise; and if he will make a Stephen Hammond: Details of the operational statement; [170869] performance of each train operator are published on (2) whether his Department employed external the Office of Rail Regulation’s (ORR) website at consultants to work on the negotiations with First http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/ Greater Western Limited for the extension to 20 September The Secretary of State for Transport uses these statistics 2015 of the rail passenger service contract for the Great to inform his understanding of rail performance. Western line; what the cost was in each case; and if he will make a statement. [170870] The comparison of operational performance does not take into account the complications resulting from unique line-specific conditions. Stephen Hammond: The franchise agreement entered into in respect of the period to September 2015 is a new John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for agreement, not an extension of an existing agreement. Transport what consultation he has undertaken with The Department for Transport has employed legal, (a) passenger groups and (b) trade unions over the technical and financial advisers in connection with the content of the contract extension negotiated between negotiations of the new franchise agreement. To date, his Department and First Greater Western Limited for the cost for advisers is £475,265.00. The costs of passenger services on the Great Western line; and if he departmental time have been met from the Department’s will make a statement. [170875] existing budget. The negotiations were completed prior to the signing Stephen Hammond: A full consultation exercise was of the new franchise agreement. carried out in respect of the Great Western franchise competition, commencing with the publication of a John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for consultation document on 22 December 2011. The Secretary Transport what assessment he has made of the comparative of State for Transport said on 31 January 2013 when he value to the public purse of awarding Directly Operated announced the direct award to First Great Western that Railways the extension of the contract for rail passenger the aim was to services on the Great Western line; and if he will make a “to ensure wherever possible that the benefits for passengers statement. [170871] previously sought in new substantive franchise agreements are not delayed”. The public consultation garnered 1,144 responses, of Stephen Hammond: No such assessment has been which one was from a trade union. made. Directly Operated Railways (DOR) undertook the preparatory measures necessary to commence operation in the event that we were unable to conclude the negotiations John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for successfully with the incumbent operator, and this included Transport what estimate he has made of the increase in an assessment of resource requirement. passenger revenue over the life of the contract extension to September 2015 agreed between his Department and First Greater Western Limited for rail passenger services John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for on the Great Western line; and if he will make a Transport what the average increase in passenger rail statement. [170876] fares on the Great Western line has been in each year since March 1998; and what comparative assessment he Stephen Hammond: The Franchise Agreement entered has made of such a change and that of (a) other into in respect of the period to September 2015 is a new operators of inter-city passenger services and (b) the agreement, not an extension of an existing agreement. national average in each such year. [170873] The estimated passenger revenue is commercially confidential. Stephen Hammond: The Department does not hold information about the average increase in rail fares in John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for each year. Transport in which contractual circumstances his The Office of Rail Regulation (’ORR’) publishes a Department would activate contingency for further rail fares price index which provides a measure of the extension of the rail contract agreed with First Greater change in the prices charged by train operating companies Western Limited for passenger services on the Great (TOCs) to rail passengers. This is available on ORR’s Western line; and if he will make a statement. [170877] website data portal Stephen Hammond: The EU legislation under which http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/ the new franchise agreement starting, on 13 October, ORR’s fares index does not break down the figures was entered into does not permit that agreement to by individual TOC but by sector. First Great Western exceed two years. The agreement therefore does not and the other inter-city operators are included in Long- contain provisions in relation to extension. The overall distance Operators. term of 33 months included in the franchising programme 805W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 806W published on 26 March 2013 is planned to be achieved including updates to our assumptions about the planned through the entering into of a second direct award improvements to transport infrastructure in England franchise agreement. and Wales included in the ’without-HS2’ comparator.

John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Maritime and Coastguard Agency Transport what the value will be to (a) Network Rail and (b) First Greater Western Limited of the planned Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport improvements to (i) on-train Wi-Fi coverage and (ii) what recent discussions he has had with officials in the stations on the Great Western line to be undertaken Maritime and Coastguard Agency on the employment between October 2013 and September 2015; and if he of workers on zero hours contracts in safety critical will make a statement. [170879] roles in the shipping industry. [171222] Stephen Hammond: The Department has secured a Stephen Hammond: I have had no discussions with commitment with First Great Western to fit more trains officials from the Maritime and Coastguard Agency on with free wireless internet services. Priority for this the employment of workers on zero hours contracts in upgrade given to long-distance trains, and we will continue safety critical roles in the shipping industry. to work with the operator to deliver improvements to services and stations through the life of the direct award; the exact details are yet to be finalised. Peel Holdings

John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Transport (1) what the value to First Greater Western what grants and loans have been made by his Department Limited is of the contract extension agreed between his and the bodies for which it is responsible to projects in Department and that company for rail passenger services which Peel Holdings is a significant beneficiary in each on the Great Western line; what steps he has taken to of the last five years. [170993] protect the public purse; and if he will make a statement; [170880] Stephen Hammond: The requested data is not available. (2) what the estimated level of (a) public subsidy, (b) The Department records direct recipients of grants and premium payments and (c) revenue support will be loans which it makes, but does not maintain records of during the contract extension to September 2015 agreed other parties involved in projects funded by these grants. between his Department and First Greater Western Limited for rail passenger services on the Great Western Public Transport line; and if he will make a statement; [170881] (3) what the value of the contract extension to September Mr Nuttall: To ask the Secretary of State for 2015 agreed between his Department and First Greater Transport if he will commission an assessment of the Western Limited for rail passenger services on the Great hyperloop system as an alternative to high speed rail as Western line is; and if he will make a statement. [170883] a means of high speed transportation. [170825]

Stephen Hammond: The Office of Rail Regulation Mr Goodwill: The Government believes that high routinely publishes premium and subsidy payments in speed rail offers the most suitable approach to promoting regards to each operator. These are published annually economic growth and providing the long-term transport in arrears. Additionally, compensation to each Train capacity our country needs. It utilises proven technologies, Operating Company will be published annually by the while untested systems, such as Hyperloop, risk delay to Department for Transport as required by Regulation delivery and cost overruns. 1370/2007. Railways: Nottingham John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether First Greater Western Limited will abide by existing collective bargaining agreements with Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for recognised trade unions for the period covered by the Transport what forecasts his Department has made of contract extension for the Great Western line; and if he journey times from Nottingham city centre to central London via High Speed 2 and an electrified Midland will make a statement. [170882] Main Line in 2033. [171101] Stephen Hammond: Industrial relations are for First Great Western to manage. This is the case with all Mr Goodwill: The forecast journey time between franchises. Nottingham Midland to London Euston on HS2 is 1:08 hours, a saving of 36 minutes from the current High Speed 2 Railway Line times, as published in ‘High Speed Rail: Investing in Britain’s Future—Consultation on the route from the Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for West Midlands to Manchester, Leeds and beyond’, July Transport whether the increase in capacity that will be 2013. created by the electrification of the Midland Main Line The Department looks to Network Rail to determine will be included in the next update of the economic a detailed journey time between Nottingham and London case for the Y route of High Speed 2. [171102] via an electrified Midland Mainline. Network Rail is funded to electrify the route by 2019 and is working Mr Goodwill: The next update to the economic case with the rail industry to establish the benefits such as for HS2 will accommodate a range of enhancements, shorter journey times that can be incorporated. 807W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 808W

Railways: Tickets Jane Ellison: Both the Secretary of State for Health and the Attorney-General are of the view that termination Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for of a pregnancy oh the grounds of gender alone is both Transport how much the Government’s proposed trial illegal and grossly unethical. However, sex-linked inherited of single leg ticketing will cost; and when he anticipates medical condition could be relevant to whether one of that the trial will begin. [170988] the lawful grounds under the Abortion Act is met. The Department has, and continue to, refer any doctors Stephen Hammond: The details of the trial are still suspected of having acted unlawfully to the appropriate being decided, although we expect it to begin in the next authorities to investigate. financial year. The Department has taken a number of steps regarding The cost of the trial will depend upon a number of sex selection abortions. These include writing to the factors, such as the number of routes upon which relevant police forces and requesting that all the allegations single-leg pricing will be trialled, details of which will be which appeared in February 2012 be investigated. A decided in due course following further discussion with letter was also sent from the chief medical officer (CMO) train operators. on 23 February 2012 to all abortion services highlighting legal requirements under the Abortion Act 1967, including Shipping: Training gender selection. In addition, at the request of the Council of Europe, Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for we undertook a detailed analysis of births by gender Transport if he will make it his Department’s policy to from 2007 to 2011. The data were published in May this collate information on the number of training roles for year and showed that the United Kingdom gender ratio UK ratings in the previous year for inclusion in the is 105.1 male births to 100 female and is well within the annual Seafarer Statistics publication. [171219] normal boundaries for populations. When broken down by the mothers’ country of birth, no group is statistically Stephen Hammond: I refer the hon. Member to my different from the range that we would expect to see answer of 14 October 2013, Official Report, column 535W. naturally occurring. Speed Limits We now intend to issue further guidance. First there will be a further letter from the CMO and will cover sex selective abortions, pre-signing of abortion certification Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for forms and the information that doctors need to make a Transport what discussions he has had with his EU decision in good faith. departmental officials will also counterparts on compulsory speed adapters. [170737] be working closely with professional bodies, including the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, Mr Goodwill: I have not had occasion to discuss the British Medical Association and the General Medical speed adaptation with EU counterparts. There has been Council, to discuss what further support and guidance some preliminary discussion at official level of intelligent clinicians might need. speed adaptation as part of the ongoing EU-wide dialogue on road safety issues. Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation

Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for HEALTH Health by what process members are appointed to the Abortion Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation. [170867] Dr Poulter: The Department, NHS England and the Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health chair of the committee regularly review the balance of (1) under what circumstances abortions can be performed expertise on the Advisory Committee on Resource on the grounds that the foetus is female; what the form Allocation. As required, the Secretary of State for Health and timescale is of the investigation into reports of and NHS England invite individuals to take up an abortions being performed on the grounds that the appointment. foetus is female; whether that investigation will cover all abortion clinics in the UK; whether the relevant police forces and prosecuting authorities have been informed Alcoholic Drinks and Drugs: Rehabilitation of those reports; whether doctors suspected of having falsified abortion referral forms or having performed Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for abortions on the grounds that the foetus is female will Health what the average cost per individual, per week is be referred to the General Medical Council and the of NHS residential drug and alcohol detoxification relevant police authorities; and if he will make a statement; units. [171121] [169754] (2) what further steps he (a) has taken and (b) plans Jane Ellison: Information on the average cost of to take in each of the next 12 months regarding cases of national health service residential drug and alcohol sex-selection abortions; and if he will make a detoxification units is not collected centrally. statement; [170115] The available cost figures for in-patient detoxification (3) what progress he has made with his Department’s cover treatment provided by both the NHS and voluntary investigation of allegations that gender abortions are organisations. They are aggregated figures and it is taking place in England and Wales; and if he will make therefore not possible to identify the cost of NHS a statement. [170140] treatment alone. The figures cover NHS general hospital 809W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 810W psychiatric units and specialist drug misuse in-patient Count of finished admission episodes (FAEs)1 where there was an emergency admission method2 and a primary or secondary diagnosis3 of dementia4 for the units in hospitals, as well as voluntary, sector residential years 2007-08 to 2011-125—Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English settings. NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector FAEs Ambulance Services: North West 2011-12 219,064 Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 1 Finished admission episodes A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient care under what recent discussions he has had with the North one consultant within one health care provider. FAEs are counted against the West Ambulance Service on response times. [171256] year or month in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within the period. Jane Ellison: No Ministers in the Department have 2 Admission method held such discussions with the North West Ambulance A code which identifies how the patient was admitted to hospital. 22—Emergency: via general practitioner (GP) Service. 23—Emergency: via Bed Bureau, including the Central Bureau 24—Emergency: via consultant outpatient clinic Cancer: Staffordshire 28—Emergency: other means, including patients who arrive via the accident and emergency department of another health care provider. 3 Number of episodes with a main or secondary diagnosis Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The number of episodes where this diagnosis was recorded in any of the 20 (14 how many people in Staffordshire have received from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) primary and secondary diagnosis fields in a Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) record. Each episode is funding from the Cancer Drugs Fund in each of the only counted once, even if the diagnosis is recorded in more than one diagnosis last three years. [170912] field of the record. 4 ICD10 codes—Dementia F00.0 Dementia in Alzheimer’s disease with early onset Jane Ellison: Information on the number of patients F00.1 Dementia in Alzheimer’s disease with late onset who have had cancer drugs funded by West Midlands F00.2 Dementia in Alzheimer’s disease, atypical or mixed type strategic health authority (SHA) for the period October F00.9 Dementia in Alzheimer’s disease, unspecified F01.0 Vascular dementia of acute onset 2010 to end March 2013 is shown in the following table. F01.1 Multi-infarct dementia West Midlands SHA F01.2 Subcortical vascular dementia F01.3 Mixed cortical and subcortical vascular dementia Number F01.8 Other vascular dementia F01.9 Vascular dementia, unspecified Number of patients funded in 2010-11 292 F02.0 Dementia in Pick’s disease Number of patients funded in 2011-12 1,658 F02.1 Dementia in Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease Number of patients funded in 2012-13 1,534 F02.2 Dementia in Huntington’s disease F02.3 Dementia in Parkinson’s disease 1 Total number of patients funded since October 2010 3,484 F02.4 Dementia in human immunodeficiency virus [HIV] disease 1 Some individual patients may be double-counted where a patient has F02.8 Dementia in other specified diseases classified elsewhere received more than one drug treatment through the Cancer Drugs Fund. F03.X Unspecified dementia Source. F05.1 Delirium superimposed on dementia. Information provided to the Department by SHAs. 5 Assessing growth through time (In-patients) HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over Information on patients funded through the Cancer time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements in data quality and Drugs Fund is not collected at county level. coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For NHS England took responsibility for the Fund from example, changes in activity may be due to changes in the provision of care. April 2013 and is collecting data on the use of the fund Source: from four regional teams. We are advised that between 1 Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre. April and end of June 2013, 1,253 patients in the Midlands and East area were funded. ICT

Dementia Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many (a) iPads and (b) iPhones have been Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for purchased by (i) his Department and (ii) his Health how many emergency hospitals admissions in Department’s non-departmental public bodies in each England were for patients with a diagnosis of dementia of the last three years. [171272] in each of the last five years. [171247] Dr Poulter: Information about the number of iPads Dr Poulter: Data on a count of finished admission and iPhones procured by the Department and the episodes where there was an emergency admission method Department’s non-departmental public bodies for each and a primary or secondary diagnosis of dementia for of the last three years is available in the following table. the years 2007-08 to 2011-12, is shown in the following There were no iPads or iPhones procured in previous table. years. The iPad was only launched in mid-2010 and the It should be noted that this is not a count of people iPhone was not available for use within Government as the same person may have been admitted on more until more recently. than one occasion. 2011 2012 20131 Count of finished admission episodes (FAEs)1 where there was an emergency admission method2 and a primary or secondary diagnosis3 of dementia4 for the iPad iPhone iPad iPhone iPad iPhone years 2007-08 to 2011-125—Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Department of 63 0 0 1 25 0 Health FAEs

2007-08 133,373 Non-departmental 2008-09 154,920 public bodies 2009-10 177,622 NHS England 0 0 100 220 190 1,591 2010-11 202,628 Monitor 0 0 14 0 40 0 811W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 812W

Dr Poulter: These figures represent advertising 2011 2012 20131 expenditure relating to public appointments and public iPad iPhone iPad iPhone iPad iPhone health campaigns, and to other expenditure recorded by Human 000000the Department’s Business Management System. To Fertilisation and provide fully comprehensive data could be done only at Embryology Authority disproportionate cost. Human Tissue 000000 Authority £ National Institute 000091 Public appointments Department of Health for Health and and public health Procurement Centre of 1 2 Care Excellence campaigns Expertise Care Quality 15 0 41 0 50 0 (a) The Guardian Commission newspaper Health and Social 0 1 0 727 12 42 (i) 2009-10 0 0 Care Information Centre (ii) 2010-11 15,296 0 1 To date. (iii) 2011-12 16,000 0 (iv) 2012-13 13,068 0 NHS England (b) The Guardian Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for website Health how much NHS England has spent on public (i) 2009-10 . 0 0 relations and communications staff since its inception. (ii) 2010-11 0 0 [171269] (iii) 2011-12 0 0 (iv) 2012-13 3—0 Jane Ellison: NHS England advises that it has spent the following sums on public relations and communications (c) The Guardian staff since it was established as an executive non Media Group departmental public body in October 2012: (i) 2009-10 0 15,295 (ii) 2010-11 129,360 5,601 Financial year Type of staff Amount (£) (iii) 2011-12 256,554 0 (iv) 2012-13 158,675 0 2012-13 (from 1 Central NHS England staff 253,963 1 Including VAT. October 2012) 2 Excluding VAT. 2013-14 (to 30 Central NHS England staff 1,497,517 3 Costs included in (a)(iv). September 2013) Commissioning support 4,712,220 unit staff ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Public Health England Bovine Tuberculosis Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Health which staff positions at Public Health England Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for are currently unfilled. [171268] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what number and proportion of badgers killed in the current culling Jane Ellison: Public Health England (PHE) is currently programme have been identified as carrying active recruiting for 364 vacancies—for a whole-time equivalent bovine TB. [171056] (WTE) of 357.68. George Eustice: There were no plans to test badgers 49 out of the 364 posts are medical and dental culled for infection with M. bovis. This was one of the qualified staff or senior civil servant posts. elements investigated during the randomised badger The remaining 315 represent a cross-section of the culling trial, giving us evidence on the typical prevalence PHE workforce as a whole: nurses, biomedical scientists, of TB in badgers in areas of high TB incidence, and has clinical scientists, laboratory staff, quality assurance not been repeated during the pilots. staff, emergency planners, scientific and technical staff, epidemiologists, statisticians, corporate services staff Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for (business managers, finance, information technology, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what recent procurement and human resource professionals) and estimate he has made of the costs relating to carry out data analysts. post mortems on badgers; and how such costs will be As a proportion of total PHE WTE percentage this funded following the recent extension granted in represents 6.3%. Somerset; [171250] (2) what recent estimate he has made of the costs The Guardian relating to humaneness monitoring; and how such costs will be funded following the recent extension Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health granted in Somerset; [171251] how much his Department spent on advertising with (3) what recent estimate he has made of the costs (a) The Guardian newspaper, (b) The Guardian website relating to sett monitoring of the badger culls; and how and (c) The Guardian Media Group in (i) 2009-10, (ii) such costs will be funded following the recent extension 2010-11, (iii) 2011-12 and (iv) 2012-13. [171155] granted in Somerset; [171252] 813W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 814W

(4) what recent estimate he has made of the costs The Environment Agency has a standard set of criteria relating to licensing of the badger culls; and how such for identifying and classifying a chalk stream which was costs will be funded following the recent extension published in full in its ‘State of England’s Chalk Streams granted in Somerset; [171253] Report’, 2004. The key characteristics are that the river (5) what recent estimate he has made of the cost of is dominated by rain-fed groundwater percolating through policing the badger culls; and how such costs will be chalk. The river water is normally very alkaline and funded following the recent extension granted for the relatively constant in temperature as a result of the badger cull trial in Somerset. [171254] water’s underground journey through the chalk. A standard set of criteria for defining a chalk stream George Eustice: The 2011 Impact Assessment is the as a habitat, in terms of flora and fauna, is provided by most recent estimate prepared on the cost of the pilots: the Habitats Directive, Annex 1, section 3260 in which chalk rivers are recognised as a priority habitat. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/measures-to- address-bovine-tuberculosis-in-badgers-impact-assessment Rural Areas: Financial Services When the current badger control policy was published, we recognised the uncertainties around costs and benefits which provided an additional reason to proceed with Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for two pilots initially. As planned, costs will be reviewed Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment after the conclusion of the pilots when all the information he has made of the availability of commercial loans to is available. businesses and individuals operating in the rural economy; and if he will make a statement. [170406]

Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gauke: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what regard he the Treasury. gave to Section 10(c)(i) of his Department’s guidance to The Government is committed to improving the flow Natural England on the licensing of killing or taking of credit to small businesses, and is taking action to badgers for the purpose of preventing the spread of help small businesses access the finance they need in bovine TB when he extended the current cull of badgers. order to grow. [171296] The funding for lending scheme has contributed to a transformation of the bank funding environment and George Eustice: As the designated licensing authority, banks are now passing this on to the real economy, it is for Natural England to consider and grant applications including to small businesses, while the Business Bank for badger control licences, having regard to the relevant and the Business Finance Partnership is developing the Guidance provided by the Secretary of State. sources of non-bank finance available to smaller businesses. The Government is taking a number of other actions Compost to support the rural economy, by improving competitiveness and skills, investing in rural tourism and supporting Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for micro-enterprises. This includes investing £150 million Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the to improve mobile coverage for up to 60,000 rural answer of 6 February 2013, Official Report, column premises across the UK that currently cannot receive 263W, on compost, when his Department intends to any signal; and establishing the five pilot rural growth publish the findings of the study entitled, Monitoring networks (RGN) to tackle barriers to economic growth bioaerosols and odour emissions from composting in rural areas, such as a shortage of work premises, slow facilities. [171290] internet connectivity and fragmented business networks. Decisions about whether to lend to specific individuals Dan Rogerson: The findings of the Monitoring or businesses remain commercial decisions for banks Bioaerosols and Odour Emissions from Composting and building societies. Facilities project are due to be published later this month.

Rivers ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Electric Cables Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his Mr Yeo: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Department has produced a standard set of criteria for Climate Change when the Minister of State for Energy identifying and classifying a waterway as a chalkstream; plans to respond to the joint signatories of a letter to and if he will list all those chalkstreams it has identified him regarding overhead transmission lines, dated as flowing in England. [171265] 18 July 2013. [171191]

Dan Rogerson: The UK Chalk Rivers Steering Group Gregory Barker: The Minister of State, Department has identified 161 chalk rivers across England. A copy of Energy and Climate Change, my right hon. Friend of this list will be placed in the House Library. The the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), replied to Group was chaired by the Environment Agency and my hon. Friend and each of the other seven signatory comprised of Government and representatives of interested MPs on 2 August 2013. A copy of the letter will be organisations. placed in the Libraries of the House. 815W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 816W

Electricity: Prices electricity and gas markets in the UK ever more competitive, so energy companies cannot exploit people through Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy market power. and Climate Change what recent comparative assessment he has made of electricity prices for industry in the UK Energy: Scotland and in other EU member states. [900526] Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Davey: I am aware that electricity prices for Energy and Climate Change what recent representations industry in the UK are higher than in some other EU he has received from the Scottish Government regarding member states. This is why the Government has put in (a) business and (b) household energy bills in Scotland. place compensation for the indirect costs of the EU [171152] Emissions Trading Scheme and, subject to state aid approval is introducing compensation for the cost of the Carbon Price Floor and an exemption for Energy Michael Fallon: DECC Ministers and officials have Intensive Industries from the costs of Contract for had a number of discussions with the Scottish Government Difference. about a range of energy issues. Energy Company Obligation Energy: Wales

Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Energy and Climate Change what proportion of the and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the Energy Company Obligation budget will be spent on average proportion of household expenditure on homes classified as being in fuel poverty. [171053] energy bills for households in North Wales in the latest period for which figures are available. [171341] Gregory Barker: The Energy Company Obligation (ECO) sets in legislation a carbon and notional bill Gregory Barker: DECC does not hold data on household savings target for March 2015. The obligation is expected expenditure in Wales below national level. to cost participating suppliers around £1.3 billion per annum to deliver. Our impact assessment suggests some At the national level, the average proportion of household £540 million of this, or 42% of the total budget, will be expenditure on energy bills in Wales was 5.4%, over the spent through the Affordable Warmth and Carbon Saving period from 2009 to 2011. In terms of pounds and Communities Obligation programmes. These elements pence, this is an average spend of £21.50 per household, of ECO are targeted at low income and vulnerable per week. households and households living in low income areas. These figures include expenditure on electricity, gas It is likely that some low income and vulnerable households and other household fuels, but exclude expenditure on will also receive assistance under ECO’s main carbon petrol, and diesel. They are based on data from the obligation. Living Costs and Food Survey, which is run by the It is not possible to develop accurate estimates of the Office for National Statistics. Due to the small number number of fuel poor households receiving assistance of households in Wales within the survey each year, under ECO overall, as specific households in fuel poverty results are averaged across a three year period and change year on year. However, an energy efficiency cannot be produced for sub-regions of Wales. scheme of this nature targeted at low income and vulnerable households can be expected to make a significant Fuel Poverty contribution to fuel poverty objectives. Delivery data shows that by the end of August, 244,882 energy efficiency and heating measures had been installed through ECO: Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what steps he has taken to reduce https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-of- fuel poverty this winter. [R] [900532] energy-climate-change/series/green-deal-and-energy- company-obligation-eco-statistics This includes more than 167,000 measures under the Gregory Barker: This year the Green Deal and Energy Affordable Warmth and Carbon Saving Communities Company Obligation have already transformed the homes parts of ECO. of (174,000) low income and vulnerable households, cutting bills and keeping people warm. Energy: Billing Additionally, this winter our Warm Home Discount scheme will pay out to 2 million households—including Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for over 1 million of the poorest pensioners. Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to This Government has also permanently increased help households with their energy bills. [900515] cold weather payments to £25 per week. And all pensioners will receive the winter fuel payment. Mr Davey: I am taking many steps to help that come under three broad categories. First, direct help for millions of people, with money off their bills and money to help Scotland pay their bills—warm home discount, winter fuel payments, cold weather payments. Second, energy efficiency, to Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for help people cut their bills by wasting less energy—the Energy and Climate Change when he last met the energy company obligation, the Green Deal, Smart Scottish Government’s Minister for Energy, Enterprise Meters. Third, competition. I am intervening to make and Tourism. [171138] 817W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 818W

Gregory Barker: DECC Ministers have regular Prudential Regulation Authority engagement with Ministers in the Scottish Government to discuss a range of issues. As has been the case with Graham Stringer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer successive Administrations, it is not the Government’s if he will make it his policy that the Prudential Regulation practice to provide details of all such meetings. Authority issues warnings to bond markets about capital shortfalls in banks. [170844]

TREASURY Mr Gauke: On June 20 2013, the PRA published the results of its assessment of the capital adequacy of Co-operative Bank eight major banks and building societies, including the level of capital shortfalls of each institution against the Graham Stringer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer risk-weighted capital ratio based on the Basel III definition (1) what discussions he has had with the Financial of at least 7%. The results are available on the Bank of Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority England website: about the provision of independent advice to retail www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/news/ investors in securities issued by the Co-operative Bank 2013/pracaprec.pdf about the recapitalisation of that bank; [170842] The PRA have informed all of the firms of their (2) what discussions he has had with the Financial requirements and have produced PRA plans-to meet Conduct Authority (FCA) about the suspension of them, with the vast majority of these actions to be interest payments to holders of Co-operative bank accounts; completed by end-2013. and if he will request that the FCA ensures that such Under the Banking Consolidation Directive (BCD), investors receive independent advice from a competent the PRA is prohibited from publishing confidential firm on the proposed capital reconstruction. [170843] regulatory data about individual firms. However, PRA rules made in accordance with the BCD and the Market Mr Gauke: The Prudential Regulation Authority (PRA) Abuse Directive require firms themselves to disclose and Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) operate information about their capital position, as well as-other independently of Government. market-sensitive information, including information which The Government has frequent discussions with both could affect the pricing of their debt. regulators, at ministerial and official level, about the full range of firms and across a range of issues. It would not Public Sector: Pay be appropriate to comment on the details of discussions about individual firms. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Martin Wheatley, chief executive of the FCA, wrote Exchequer (1) what assessment he has made of the to Lord Myners on 13 August 2013 setting out the research report Pay Progression in the Public Sector FCA’s views. The letter was placed in the Libraries of August 2013 from Incomes Data Services; [171108] both Houses. The letter noted the Co-op’s announcement, (2) what his policy is towards pay progression in the on 12 July 2013, that the coupon on the 13% perpetual public sector; [171109] subordinated bonds (PSBs) scheduled for July 31 2013 (3) what analysis of different pay progression models would be deferred and paid at the time of the successful his Department has undertaken. [171110] completion of the exchange offer. The letter also noted that Co-op’s announcement of Danny Alexander [holding answer 16 October 2013]: 17 June 2013, that it is The Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that ‘considering the manner in which it can facilitate the provision Departments will be putting in place plans to end of independent financial advice to retail holders at the Bank’s automatic time-served progression pay in the civil service cost.’ by 2015-16. In addition, substantial reforms to progression The letter stated that the FCA is satisfied that the pay will be taken forward or are already under way for Co-operative Bank is progressing this work and will other parts of the public sector. continue to engage with the firm on the issue as the In providing advice on pay reform, the Treasury exchange offer develops. continues to take into account a range of evidence and information, including information about existing pay Mortgages: Government Assistance systems in place in public sector workforces and the civil service. Graham Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether officials in his Department are monitoring the Public Sector: Pensions geographical allocation of mortgages arranged under the Help to Buy scheme. [170931] Mr Raab: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much of total net public service pension expenditure Mr Gauke: The Help to Buy: mortgage guarantee was spent on final salary-defined benefit pensions in scheme is available throughout the UK. The scheme (a) 2011-12 and (b) 2012-13. [171262] will support potential borrowers who can afford the repayments on a high LTV mortgage, but are unable to Danny Alexander: In unfunded public service schemes save up for the large deposits currently required in the there is no investment pot into which member and aftermath of the financial crisis. The Government has employer contributions are paid, instead, pensioners’ made £12 billion of guarantees available, which is sufficient benefits are treated as if they were financed from the to support up to £130 billion of high loan-to-value contributions of current members and employers with mortgages across the UK. any shortfall being met by the Exchequer 819W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 820W

Table 2.18 of the Supplementary Fiscal Tables to the (2) how many times UK authorities have made use of Office for Budget Responsibility’s (OBR) March 2013 the directory under Joint Action 96/610/JHA in each of Economic and Fiscal Outlook provides figures for the last five years; [170807] Exchequer—or ’net’—expenditure on the unfunded public (3) what the cost to the UK public funds has been of service pension schemes in 2011-12 and 2012-13. The complying with Joint Action 96/610/JHA in each of the schemes covered are final salary defined benefit schemes, last five years. [170808] with the exception of the Nuvos section of the Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme, and the GP section of the NHS Pension Scheme, both of which are career average James Brokenshire: To the best of our knowledge, defined benefit pension schemes. These schemes are Joint Action 96/610/JHA has not been used by UK administered, by the Cabinet Office and Department authorities and there are no costs associated with complying for Health respectively, and HM Treasury does not hold with this measure. the information required to determine from the OBR figures the split in Exchequer expenditure between final As the UK has opted out of this measure, from 1 salary and career average public service pension schemes. December 2014 the UK will have the power to change our practice in line with the needs of law enforcement. The Guardian

Julian Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for how much his Department spent on advertising with the Home Department (1) what alternative arrangements, (a) The Guardian newspaper, (b) The Guardian website if any, will be required to enable the transmission of and (c) The Guardian Media Group in (i) 2009-10, (ii) controlled substances upon opting out of Council Decision 2001/419/JHA; what her policy is on putting in place 2010-11, (iii) 2011-12 and (iv) 2012-13. [171158] such alternative arrangements and whether they should Nicky Morgan: The Treasury have advertised on The differ from the provisions of the Council Decision; and Guardian’s website including: what assessment she has made of whether these arrangements would be put in place; [170809] www.jobs.guardian.co.uk and The Guardian newspaper. However, as this is arranged (2) what the cost to the UK public funds has been of via the Treasury’s advertising agency TMP, any detailed transmissions carried out under Council Decision information on spend broken down by separate media 2001/419/ JHA in the last year; and what the purpose is not held centrally by the Department and can be was of each of these transmissions. [170810] provided only at disproportionate cost. James Brokenshire: There have been four transmissions carried out in the last year in accordance with the HOME DEPARTMENT procedures set out in Council Decision 2001/419/JHA. Two of these related to amphetamine samples for EU EU Justice and Home Affairs profiling projects and two related to the European Network of Forensic Science Institutes (ENFSI) Drugs Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for Working Group Proficiency Testing. These exchanges the Home Department (1) what the cost to UK public could have happened lawfully without this instrument funds has been in each of the last five years of complying and alternative arrangements will not be required upon with Joint Action 97/339/JHA; [170804] opting out. (2) with which EU member states the UK does not Information on costs of these transmissions is not have bilateral or multilateral agreements on matters collected centrally. covered by Joint Action 97/339/JHA; and whether the UK would seek to establish such agreements with these As the UK has opted out of this measure, from 1 member states upon opting out of this measure. December 2014 the UK will have the power to change [170805] our legislation on this matter in our Parliament. At this moment the UK has no plans to change operational James Brokenshire: Police forces in the UK use other practices but the UK will have the power to do so if more practical bilateral and multilateral agreements for required. sharing information with all other member states. As the UK has opted out of this measure, from 1 Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for December 2014 the UK will have the power to change the Home Department (1) whether co-operation which our practice in line with the needs of law enforcement. is undertaken under the provisions of Joint Action At this moment the UK has no plans to change policy 98/699/JHA will be maintained following a UK opt out or practice and will fall back on other practical agreements from that Joint Action; and what the cost has been to without impacting cooperation. UK public funds in each of the last five years of this There have been no costs to UK public funds over the co-operation; [170811] last five years for complying with this Joint Action. (2) whether the UK complies with the obligations relating to judicial training under Joint Action Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for 98/699/JHA; [170812] the Home Department (1) what assessment she has made of the importance of Joint Action 96/610/JHA in (3) what assessment she has made of the cost of counter-terrorism co-operation between the UK and producing and maintaining the guide required by Joint other EU member states; [170806] Action 98/699/JHA. [170813] 821W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 822W

James Brokenshire: Currently co-operation with other (5) which provisions of Joint Action 96/750/JHA do member states to identify, freeze or confiscate assets is not accord with existing UK policy or practice. principally based on the 1990 Council of Europe [170819] Convention on Laundering, Search, Seizure and Confiscation of the Proceeds from Crime, not on Joint Action 98/699/JHA. As part of the 2014 Decision the James Brokenshire: The EU Council Joint Action UK intends to rejoin Council Framework Decision 96/750/JHA concerns the approximation of the laws 2006/783/JHA of 6 October 2006 on the application of and practices of the member states of the European the principle of mutual recognition to confiscation orders Union to combat drug addiction and to prevent and and Council Framework Decision 2003/577/JHA of 22 combat illegal drug trafficking. July 2003 on the execution in the European Union of The UK Government has worked at a practical level orders freezing property or evidence and these measures with international partners to tackle the threats from will also provide a basis for future co-operation in this drug trafficking for many years. The Government is field. confident that it complies with all the obligations set Judicial training is a matter for the judiciary but the out in this measure through other mechanisms. Government is satisfied that the UK meets the obligations The information requested on the cost to UK public as set out in Article 6 of Joint Action 98/699/JHA. funds associated with co-operation with other member The UK Central Authority, based in the Home Office, states is not held centrally. maintains guidance relating to all elements of mutual As the UK has opted out of this measure, from 1 legal assistance in criminal matters, including those December 2014 the UK will have the power to change covered by Article 2 of Joint Action 98/699/JHA. This our legislation on this matter in our Parliament. At this can be found on the European Judicial Network website moment the UK has no plans to change existing policy and at: or operational practices but the UK will have the power www.gov.uk/mutual-legal-assistance-mla-requests to do so if required. The costs of maintaining this guidance are met from the overall Home Office budget and are nominal. Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for As the UK has opted out of this measure, from 1 the Home Department (1) through what means, if any, December 2014 the UK will reclaim the power to change the information currently exchanged through Joint our legislation on this matter in our Parliament. At this Action 96/699/JHA will be exchanged with other moment the UK has no plans to change operational member states assuming that the UK ceases to be practices but the UK will have the power to do so if bound by this Joint Action; [170820] required. (2) how many prosecutions have been facilitated in the UK through Joint Action 96/699/JHA; [170778] Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether existing policy and (3) how frequently information exchange involving practice in matters covered by Joint Action 97/372/ the UK is conducted on the basis of Joint Action JHA, including co-operation with other member states, 96/699/JHA; and what the cost has been to UK public will alter as a result of the UK opting out of the Joint funds in each of the last five years of such information exchange. [170779] Action. [170814]

James Brokenshire: The UK has not used Joint Action James Brokenshire: The information requested on 97/372/JHA to share intelligence or information for frequency and cost of transmission of information on joint customs operations and relies on the provisions of the chemical profiling of drugs or related prosecutions the Naples II Convention. Opting out of this measure is not collected centrally in the UK. will not impact on our existing policy and practice in The EU Council Joint Action 96/699/JHA concerns this area, including co-operation with other member the exchange of information on the chemical profiling states. of drugs to facilitate improved cooperation between member states in combating illicit drug trafficking. Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what the cost to UK public The Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) funds has been in each of the last five years of co-operation transmitted this data on behalf of the UK forensic with other member states undertaken under the provisions science laboratories and the National Crime Agency (NCA) will now undertake this function. The UK will of Joint Action 96/750/JHA; [170815] continue to exchange forensic drug information with (2) whether existing policy and practice in matters other member states and EU partners through a variety covered by Joint Action 96/750/JHA, including co-operation of other means including direct to law enforcement, by with other member states, will alter as a result of the forensic providers and through other networks, such as UK opting out of this measure; [170816] the European Drug Profiling System and Europol analysis (3) what steps the UK has taken to assure the EU work files. that the UK is compliant with Joint Action 96/750/JHA; As the UK has opted out of this measure, from 1 [170817] December 2014 the UK will reclaim the power to change (4) what UK legislative or operational measures, if operational practices and policy. At this moment the any, would be necessary to satisfy the requirements of UK has no plans to change existing policy or operational Joint Action 96/750/JHA that do not accord with practices but the UK will have the power to do so if existing policy or practice; [170818] required. 823W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 824W

Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for Ministers the Home Department whether the Government intends to retain unchanged the provisions of UK law Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for the and practice required by Council Framework Decision Home Department which Ministers in her Department 2002/474/JHA, as amended, assuming that the UK have (a) responsibility for and (b) access to classified ceases to be bound by the Framework Decision under information in connection with the Security Service; Article 10 of the Protocol on Transitional Provisions and if she will make a statement. [170258] annexed to the EU treaties. [171001] James Brokenshire: The Secretary of State for the James Brokenshire: No record of Council Framework Home Department has responsibility for the Security Decision 2002/474/JHA can be found and this is not a Service and is accountable to Parliament, and to the measure subject to the UK’s 2014 Opt-out decision. public, for the work they do. Council Framework Decision 2002/475/JHA on combating Government Ministers may have access to classified terrorism was amended by Council Framework Decision information where it is necessary and relevant to their 2008/919/JHA. It is assumed that your question relates ministerial responsibilities. to these measures. The UK goes further than the requirements of Police: Training Framework Decision 2002/475/JHA in most respects. There are no plans to amend UK legislation which is compliant with this measure and domestic practices will Siobhain McDonagh: To ask the Secretary of State not be altered as a result of the UK’s decision to for the Home Department (1) what assessment she has opt out. made of the effect of the introduction of compulsory paid-for Certificate in Knowledge of Policing courses as a requirement for applying to become a police Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for officer on (a) the demographic composition of police the Home Department whether the information forces and (b) how representative police forces are of exchange between the UK and EU bodies that occurs the communities they serve; [170864] under Council Decision 2005/387/JHA will continue if the UK opts out of that Decision; and what the cost to (2) which police forces offer bursaries or other UK public funds has been in each of the last five years financial assistance to pay fees for Certificate in Knowledge of Policing courses to applicants from of such information exchange. [171030] disadvantaged backgrounds; [170865] (3) which police forces require potential applicants James Brokenshire [holding answer 15 October 2013]: for police officer roles to have completed a Certificate The UK Government has worked at a practical level in Knowledge of Policing prior to application. [170866] with international partners on drugs issues for many years. Co-operation and information exchange with other member states and EU bodies will not change as a Damian Green: The Certificate in Knowledge of Policing result of opting out of this measure. The marginal costs is not a requirement for entry in to any force. It is one of associated with the UK’s participation in the information a number of routes and is designed to increase access exchange mechanism are subsumed within the existing and inclusion and to build the profession of policing. responsibilities of the UK National Focal Point on The College of Policing is monitoring take up of the drugs based at Public Health England the UK’s Europol new qualification, including the demographic data of National Unit. candidates. It is too early to give an informed response of its effect as the certificate is in its infancy and As the UK has opted out of this measure, from 1 recruitment in forces outside Metropolitan Police Service December 2014 the UK will have the power to change is low. operational practices and policy. At this moment the No forces have established bursary schemes for students UK has no plans to do so. undertaking the Pre-Join programmes but a number are considering doing so.

Young Offenders HM Inspectorate of Constabulary Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what proportion of children Home Department if she will make it her policy that aged 17 and under who were detained overnight in non-warranted holders of the position of HM Chief police cells in each of the last three years were Inspector of Constabulary should not wear ceremonial subsequently charged with a criminal offence; [171054] uniform while conducting their duties; and if she will (2) what the (a) offence type, (b) gender and (c) make a statement. [171107] reason for detention was of each child aged 17 and under who was detained overnight in police cells in Damian Green [holding answer 16 October 2013]: each of the last three years. [171055] The HM chief inspector of constabulary (HMCIC) and HM inspectors do not hold warrants. It is for the Damian Green: The requested information is not HMCIC to decide the public engagements at which available from data collected centrally by the Home they wear the uniform to which they are entitled. Office. 825W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 826W

Electronic Surveillance Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is Michael Fabricant: To ask the Secretary of State for taking to enforce economic sanctions against Iran. the Home Department what has been the cost of [171149] reprogramming equipment and other security changes made at GCHQ and other establishments as a direct Hugh Robertson: The EU has imposed a comprehensive consequence of the recent actions of Edward Snowden. set of economic sanctions against Iran, which are detailed [171105] in a series of EU Regulations. Member states are required to apply penalties for infringement of the Regulations. Hugh Robertson: I have been asked to reply on behalf The UK has statutory instruments which set out these of the Department for Foreign and Commonwealth penalties. affairs. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for It is the long-standing policy of successive governments Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment not to comment in detail on matters of intelligence. he has made of reports that Iran is producing plutonium at its Arak facility. [171150]

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Hugh Robertson: I am not aware of such reports. Although Iran continues construction of a Heavy Water Electronic Surveillance Research Reactor at Arak—in contravention of its UN Security Council obligations—the IAEA’s August report Michael Fabricant: To ask the Secretary of State for made clear the facility is not yet operational. If it Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what has been the becomes operational, this reactor could produce Plutonium cost of reprogramming equipment and other security that could be reprocessed for use in a future nuclear changes at intelligence gathering establishments as a device. direct consequence of the recent actions of Edward Kieron Bryan Snowden; [171104]

Hugh Robertson: It is the long-standing policy of Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for successive governments not to comment in detail on Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when British matters of intelligence. consular officials in Russia have visited Kieron Bryan since his detention on 19 September 2013; how long Iran each such visit lasted; and when the next such visit will take place. [171142] Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Mr Lidington: British consular officials visited Kieron assessment he has made of Iran’s support for Hamas. Bryan on 24 September and again on 3, 9 and 11 [171130] October. During each visit, which varied in length, they were able to discuss welfare issues with Mr Bryan and Hugh Robertson: We continue to have serious concerns follow up on these with the relevant Russian authorities, about Iran’s support for terrorist groups, including as well as pass messages to and from family members. Hezbollah’s military wing and Hamas. Iran provides Consular officials intend to visit Mr Bryan again later the military wing of Hezbollah with significant financial this week. resources, military equipment, and training. Iranian Religious Freedom support for Hamas reportedly continues, although at a lower level since Hamas decided not to support the Syrian regime. Iran’s support to such groups is unacceptable, Angie Bray: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign is in direct contravention of UN Security Council and Commonwealth Affairs if he will develop a Resolution 1747, and undermines prospects for peace strategy to prevent attacks on individuals throughout and stability in the Middle East. the world where the primary cause is due to the individual’s atheism, humanism or lack of religious Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for belief. [170845] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he has made of Iran’s relationship with Mr Lidington: Freedom of religion or belief is one of Hezbollah. [171143] the Government’s international human rights priorities. Protecting the rights of atheists, humanists and the Hugh Robertson: We continue to have serious concerns non-religious is an important component of this. We about Iran’s support for terrorist groups, including condemn all instances of violence and discrimination Hezbollah’s military wing and Hamas. Iran provides against individuals motivated by their religion or belief, the military wing of Hezbollah with significant financial regardless of the country, faith or belief concerned. resources, military equipment, and training. Iranian We have a strategy to strengthen our promotion of support for Hamas reportedly continues, although at a the right to freedom of religion or belief through bilateral lower level since Hamas decided not to support the work with affected countries, using multilateral institutions, Syrian regime. Iran’s support to such groups is unacceptable, and through targeted programme and project funding, is in direct contravention of UN Security Council including internal capacity-building initiatives. We are Resolution 1747, and undermines prospects for peace currently reviewing the effectiveness of our strategy. and stability in the middle east. This review is taking into account the reports of 827W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 828W

International Humanist Ethical Union and the particular We have been clear that there has been some progress threats faced by atheists, humanists and the non-religious in areas such as demining, internally displaced persons identified by the British Humanist Association. (IDP) and resettlement and infrastructure development. However, much more work is needed to achieve Russia reconciliation in Sri Lanka. As the Deputy Prime Minister stated on 15 May, too many Lessons Learnt and Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Reconciliation Commission (LLRC) recommendations Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent have not yet been implemented. assessment he has made of whether any of its new The UK co-sponsored the Sri Lanka resolution passed ballistic missile systems have put Russia in breach of in the Human Rights Council in March, and we welcome the 1987 Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces treaty; its adoption with the support of a majority of Council and if he will make a statement. [170968] members. We look to the Sri Lankan Government to implement the recommendations contained in the Hugh Robertson: The 1987 Intermediate-range Nuclear resolution, including the implementation of LLRC Forces treaty is a bilateral treaty between the USA and recommendations, and to comply with their obligations the former Soviet Union, and any determination of under international human rights law and international whether or not it has been breached is a matter for the humanitarian law. parties. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has not made an assessment on whether Russia is in breach of Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces treaty. and Commonwealth Affairs what conditions his Sri Lanka Department set in relation to human rights in Sri Lanka before confirming the attendance of the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary at the Commonwealth Heads Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign of Government Meeting in Colombo in November and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he 2013. [171145] has had regarding the UK’s attendance at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in Mr Swire: The Prime Minister and the Secretary of Colombo, Sri Lanka in November 2013. [171052] State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs will attend Mr Swire: The UK is attending the Commonwealth the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM) because we (CHOGM) in Sri Lanka as the Commonwealth is too believe it is the right thing to do for the Commonwealth. important to be set aside because of the location of We will take a very tough message to the Sri Lankan CHOGM. However, we have been very clear that the Government: that they need to make concrete progress CHOGM host should demonstrably embody our shared on human rights, reconciliation and political settlement, Commonwealth values. We believe that the attendance and that we expect unrestricted access for media and of many world leaders and the global media will help to non-governmental organisations (NGOs) attending shine a light on what is going on the country, either CHOGM. As Minister for the Commonwealth, I have highlighting progress made or drawing attention to a discussed CHOGM with a wide range of interlocutors lack of it. recently, including with hon. and hon. Members, the We continue to urge Sri Lanka to make progress on Secretary-General of the Commonwealth, Ministers human rights concerns and on the implementation of from other Commonwealth governments, and the high Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation Commission (LLRC) commissioner for Sri Lanka. recommendations, which Sri Lanka set up in 2010, and to allow unrestricted freedom of movement for Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Commonwealth Heads, media and non-governmental and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he organisations attending CHOGM in November. We has made to the Sri Lankan Government regarding full will support and welcome tangible signs of progress. implementation of the recommendations of the Equally, we will not hesitate to highlight negative Lessons Learned and Reconciliation Commission; and developments or lack of progress against commitments. what assessment he has made of progress by the Sri Lankan government on implementation. [171144] Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assurances he has Mr Swire: We regularly raise the importance of the received from the Sri Lankan government regarding Sri Lankan Government making concrete progress on (a) media freedom and (b) access for non-governmental the implementation of the Lessons Learnt and organisations during the Commonwealth Heads of Reconciliation Commission recommendations at both Government Meeting in Colombo in November 2013. ministerial and official level. This was raised most recently [171146] by the UK’s high commissioner to Sri Lanka, at ministerial level this week. In September, the former Under-Secretary Mr Swire: We welcome the Sri Lankan Government’s of State, my hon. Friend the Member for North East public assurances confirming their commitment to provide Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), also outlined to the Sri full media access to journalists at the Commonwealth Lankan high commissioner in London the importance Heads of Government Meeting. While the Secretary of that the UK attaches to the Sri Lankan Government State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right making progress against commitments made to the Sri hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Lankan people. I also made this point in my statement Hague), raised this with Sri Lankan Foreign Minister at UNGA to other Commonwealth Foreign Minister’s Peiris recently in New York, we are concerned about during CFAMM. recent statements to the contrary from some representatives 829W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 830W of the Sri Lankan Government. The UK Government Human Rights Report update states that there are also believes it vital that the media is able to travel to Sri increased reports of land takeovers in Tamil areas. Lanka and to report freely. We will continue to press the However, we understand that the Sri Lankan Government Sri Lankan government to honour their public assurances. have recently given assurances that the military would Non-governmental organisations (NGOs) have an return some private land in the north within the next important role to play during CHOGM including through three months. Our high commission in Colombo has attending events such as the Peoples’ Forum. The UK raised with the Government of Sri Lanka the need to Government believes it is important that the Sri Lankan resolve land disputes through a fair and accountable Government ensures NGOs are able to participate in process. CHOGM and travel freely during the event. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions and Commonwealth Affairs what assurances he has he has had with his Sri Lankan counterpart following received from the Sri Lankan government about the the demonstrations in Weliweriya in August 2013; and safety and rights of human rights defenders, journalists what representations he has made in support of an and lawyers meeting international visitors during the independent investigation into the protestors’ deaths Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in and the army’s conduct during those demonstrations. [171249] Colombo in November 2013. [171147] Mr Swire: We understand that investigations by the Mr Swire: The British Government has repeatedly police and the National Human Rights Commission sought and received assurances at all levels from the are continuing into the deaths which followed the violent Government of Sri Lanka that journalists and non- disruption of peaceful protests by Sri Lankan security governmental organisations will be allowed free access forces in Weliweriya. My hon. Friend the Member for to Sri Lanka during the Commonwealth Heads of North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), the former Government Meeting. We have urged the Government Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, noted our serious of Sri Lanka to take decisive action to guarantee freedom concern about the deaths in a statement on 6 August. of expression by investigating infringements of human He urged the Sri Lankan authorities to conduct a swift rights and ensuring those responsible are brought to and transparent investigation into the shootings and justice. ensure the right to peaceful protests is protected. We continue to have concerns about human rights in The European Union Delegation also issued a statement Sri Lanka, including on freedom of expression. We in agreement with the EU Heads of Mission in Sri welcomed the oral update of the UN High Commissioner Lanka. It noted that the right to freedom of peaceful th for Human Rights (UNHCHR), Navi Pillay, to the 24 assembly is fundamental to democratic societies and session of the UN Human Rights Council following her should be protected by the state, and looked to the Sri visit to Sri Lanka in August. The update noted that Ms Lankan authorities to ensure justice through speedy, Pillay had received complaints about the continuing impartial investigations and to enable all Sri Lankans to high levels of harassment and intimidation meted out exercise their human rights freely. to human rights defenders, lawyers and journalists and outlined concern that people who had been in contact Officials at our high commission in Colombo have with the UNHCHR were subsequently questioned about raised these concerns with members of the Sri Lankan the content of their conversation. Government. It is important that the Sri Lankan authorities conduct transparent investigations into all human rights abuses, ensuring the perpetrators are brought to justice. Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent representations Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for he has made to the Sri Lankan government regarding Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which individuals the (a) military presence in the north of that country, and organisations from the UK will attend the (a) (b) acquisition of private land by the Sri Lankan business summit, (b) youth summit and (c) civil society military and (c) role of the military in (i) education, (ii) summit at the upcoming Commonwealth Heads of [171148] tourism and (iii) agriculture in Sri Lanka. Government meeting in Colombo. [171255]

Mr Swire: Officials at our high commission regularly Mr Swire: Individuals and organisations from the raise with the Sri Lankan Government the issue of the UK taking part in the Commonwealth Business Forum, military presence in the north of the country. Though Commonwealth People’s Forum and Commonwealth military drawback is evident in some areas, we are Youth Forum in the margins of the Commonwealth concerned at military involvement in commercial and Heads of Government Meeting are required to register other civil activities, such as education, tourism, and with each event’s organiser. We do not hold a comprehensive agriculture, and the occupation of land in high security list of participants. The Government has yet to finalise zones. We have raised this issue at both ministerial and its plans for attendance. official level with members of the Sri Lankan Government, and will continue to press .the need for the military not Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for to partake in civil activities. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Land rights are challenging in most post conflict he has made of the report by the UN High Commissioner situations involving internally displaced people or refugees. for Human Rights following her visit to Sri Lanka on In Sri Lanka, multiple displacements of different groups sexual harassment and abuse in that country; and if he and individuals have occurred over many years resulting has discussed his Department’s Preventing Sexual Violence in competing claims on the same land. Our most recent Initiative with his Sri Lankan counterpart. [171270] 831W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 832W

Mr Swire: The Government welcomed the oral update Mr Swire: Ministers in my Department have held from the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights three meetings at which British Tamils Forum (UNHCHR) to the 24th session of the UN Human representatives were present since 2012. Two of these Rights Council following her visit to Sri Lanka in meetings included wider Tamil community or All Party August, and share many of her concerns. This update Parliamentary Group for Tamils attendees. outlined her concern on the vulnerability of women and No ministerial meetings have been held with the girls to sexual harassment and abuse, including at the Global Tamil Forum leadership since 2012. However, hands of military personnel in Sri Lanka. We look members of the British Tamils Forum automatically forward with interest to the submission of the full hold membership of the Global Tamil Forum. A Foreign written report during the March 2014 session of the Office Minister delivered a speech at the third anniversary UN Human Rights Council. conference of the Global Tamil Forum in Parliament in We continue to be concerned at reports of a culture February 2013. of impunity for rape and sexual violence and the lack of support for victims in Sri Lanka. Tackling sexual violence is central to conflict prevention and peace-building INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT worldwide, as recognised in the Preventing Sexual Violence initiative (PSVI) by the Secretary of State for Foreign Burma and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague). My hon. Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair International Development what policy objectives her Burt), the former Parliamentary-Under-Secretary of Department aims to achieve by supporting Myanmar’s State, raised the PSVI declaration in his meeting with forthcoming census. [171106] the Sri Lankan Foreign Minister in the margins of the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) on 25 Mr Duncan: A census is an essential tool that enables September. We have encouraged Sri Lanka to endorse effective government. DFID judges it sensible to support the Declaration of Commitment to End Sexual Violence Burma’s census including to advise on the content of in Conflict, launched by the Foreign Secretary on 24 the questions. This will help ensure it provides the most September, and we will continue to do so when accurate and useful data possible to inform development opportunities arise. policy. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Coltan Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with the Prime Minister about UK Government Mrs Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for attendance at the forthcoming Commonwealth Heads International Development what practical steps the of Government Meeting in Colombo, Sri Lanka. Government plans to take to make the trade in coltan [171271] conflict-free. [171266]

Mr Swire: The Prime Minister and I are in regular Lynne Featherstone: Through DFID’s Extractive contact about the Commonwealth Heads of Government Programme (ProMines) in the Democratic Republic of Meeting. We will continue to work closely together in Congo (DRC) we are funding a study on certification the run-up to the meeting. arid traceability systems in Eastern DRC with a view to supporting the scaling-up of conflict-free initiatives in a Sudan cost-effective way. The same programme is also supporting the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region mineral certification process. Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent At the international level, the UK Government is assessment he has made of reports of violence in working closely with several initiatives to break the Khartoum; and if he will make a statement. [171261] links between minerals and conflict in Eastern DRC. Developing Countries: Taxation Mark Simmonds: As I made clear in my statement of 30 September, I was shocked and saddened by reports of Sudanese security forces’ use of excessive force against Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for protesters in Khartoum and other Sudanese cities. These International Development what steps her Department events demonstrate the importance of all parties in is taking to provide assistance to developing countries Sudan engaging in a meaningful comprehensive national to increase the effectiveness of their tax authorities; dialogue to build a more prosperous, stable and peaceful and what steps it is taking to help such countries Sudan. The UK is committed to helping Sudan work increase their capacity to utilise tax data shared as a towards this vision. result of the agreement at the G8 summit in June 2013. [170199]

Tamils Justine Greening: Leaders at the G8 summit June 2013 agreed to support developing countries’ efforts to Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign collect the taxes owed to them. The Government has and Commonwealth Affairs how many meetings Ministers already set up the Developing Countries Capacity Building in his Department have held with representatives of (a) Unit, which I announced in March 2013. This is based the British Tamil Forum and (b) the Global Tamil in Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and funded by Forum since 2012. [171051] DFID to support developing countries’ tax authorities. 833W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 834W

In September 2013, the G20 asked the Organisation When a service person based in the UK is ordered by for Economic Co-operation and Development and the a civil court to attend a rehabilitation programme, Global Forum to produce a roadmap showing how commanding officers will ensure that the individual is developing countries can overcome obstacles to participating not prevented through their military duties from complying in the new standard of automatic exchange of information with the order. Any serious impact on the military agreed at G8 summit. duties of the individual which result from such an order being imposed is considered during the service’s administrative process that follows court proceedings, and an employment decision is made accordingly. Where DEFENCE appropriate, the service police and welfare services will liaise with Home Office police forces and the Probation Armed Forces: Discounts Service to assist in the offender management process. Domestic violence offender programmes have been Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for offered to British forces in Germany since November Defence which companies offer what discounts under 2008. It is taking time to collate the details and I will the Defence Discount Service. [168402] write to the hon. Member shortly. Substantive answer from Anna Soubry to Madeleine Anna Soubry [holding answer 11 September 2013]: Moon: The Defence Discount Service, managed for the Ministry of Defence by Blue Light Card Services, offers a very In my predecessor’s (Mark Francois) response to you on 8 wide range of discounts from leading high street and October (Official Report, column 27W) he promised to write on perpetrator programmes in the UK. I am now in a position to online retailers. These include Vodafone, KFC, Vue respond fully. Cinemas and a number of major supermarkets, clothing stores and technology companies. Discounts are available From November 2008 British Forces in Germany (BFG) were able to draw on a voluntary one-to-one programme for domestic on, among other things, cars, lap-tops, supermarket violence offenders, known as the Individual Domestic Abuse shopping, holidays and mobile phones. Module (IDAM). This programme, which was offered by the The full range of discounts is accessible to members BFG Probation Service, consisted of 16 one-hour sessions. Between of the scheme, which is open to regular and reserve November 2008 and June 2011, IDAM received 34 referrals. Of members of the armed forces, veterans, service family these 34 referrals, 10 were assessed as suitable candidates and five members, Ministry of Defence civil servants, cadet forces completed the full programme. (over 16 years of age) and NATO personnel serving in During Financial Year (FY) 2011-12, the Domestic Abuse the UK. Perpetrator Programme (Managed Intervention Domestic Abuse Service (MIDAS)) was developed. It was then implemented across The right hon. Member will appreciate that to publish the BFG area during FY 2012-13 by Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen a full list of the companies participating, which now Families Association on a contractual basis. MIDAS is a voluntary numbers over 1,000, and the discounts they offer, could one-to-one modular offender management programme which is impact on the commercial interests of those companies run over a 12-16 week period. In FY 2012-13 MIDAS received a and their willingness to continue participating. We also total of six referrals, and of these five candidates completed the owe a duty of confidence to the contractor we hired to full programme. So far in FY 2013-14, MIDAS has received two draw up the list and obtain the discounts. The scheme referrals, and of these one has completed the programme and one is in progress. operates as a ’closed-group’ website and the information requested is therefore not in the public domain. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Armed Forces: Sexual Offences Defence if he will provide details of the numbers of reported instances of rape and sexual crimes against Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence military personnel by other military personnel in the (1) how many sexual violence perpetrator programmes armed forces for each year since 2010. [170682] are available to (a) Royal Navy, (b) Army and (c) Royal Air Force personnel; where each such programme Anna Soubry: The Ministry of Defence takes allegations is made available; and if he will make a statement; of sexual offences very seriously. The following table [169407] shows the information readily available in respect of (2) how many places are available on his Department’s investigations of rape by military personnel against domestic violence perpetrator programmes; what the other military personnel for each year between 2010 length is of each such programme; how many participants and 2012. It relates to cases where the Service Police failed to conclude each of the programmes in the last have jurisdiction and the investigative lead. five years; and if he will make a statement. [169409] Reported Rape Investigations Mr Francois: The tri-Service Military Corrective Training Centre (MCTC) in Colchester has a range of offender 2010 7 programmes designed to address detainees’ offender 2011 13 attitudes, thinking and behaviour. These include the 2012 15 newly introduced Domestic Abuse programme delivered by Essex Probation Services. The MCTC does not For allegations in respect of sexual assault and assault provide specific sex offender treatment programmes, by penetration, I refer the hon. Member to the answers primarily because detainees generally serve short sentences given by my predecessor on 10 April 2013, Official and are not sentenced for offences which would warrant Report, columns 1126-1127W,and 25 April 2013, Official this type of intervention. Report, columns 1252-I253W, to the hon. Member for 835W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 836W

Bridgend (Mrs Moon), which relates to allegations that (3) whether his Department has made alternative have been made by serving members of the armed plans for Royal Marines’ training exercises in the next forces. six months following the cancelled Exercise Djibouti Lion; [171166] Billing (4) which (a) administration and (b) other problems led to the cancellation of Exercise Djibouti Lion; Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence [171167] how many invoices were processed by his Department in the last financial year for which figures are available. (5) when his Department received formal notice from [171193] the French government that French forces would not be taking part in Exercise Djibouti Lion; [171168] Anna Soubry: In financial year 2012-13, the Ministry (6) what the costs are, by category of expenditure, of of Defence processed 4,048,336 invoices through the the cancelled Exercise Djibouti Lion. [171184] defence bills system. Mr Francois [holding answer 16 October 2013]: I Data Protection refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan), on 8 October Defence what the nature was of each of his Department’s 2013, Official Report, column 34W,to the hon. Member loss of personal data incidents in 2012-13. [168323] for Moray (Angus Robertson). Activity costs for individual exercises are not identified Anna Soubry [holding answer 10 September 2013]: separately within the overall Cougar 13 deployment. The number and type of personal data incidents reported The specific financial information requested could be in financial year 2012-13 are contained in the following provided only at disproportionate cost but their marginal table. These figures include both confirmed and potential costs above planned operating levels are low. Travel and losses. Potential losses are incidents where evidence subsistence costs for the initial reconnaissance visit for from the investigation indicates that an accounting error Djibouti Lion and the subsequent visit for negotiations has taken place (for example, a failure to properly were £27,500. record a document’s destruction), rather than a genuine loss. Even where documents are simply recorded as lost, HMS Bulwark, HMS Illustrious and RFA Mounts investigations into the incidents indicate that in the Bay as part of Cougar 13 were due to participate in the majority of cases there is no evidence that the documents cancelled Exercise Djibouti Lion. RFA Mounts Bay, are not within Ministry of Defence premises. RFA Fort Victoria, RFA Lyme Bay and the RoRo Hurst Point still intend to make scheduled port visits to Nature of Data Number Lost or Potentially Lost Djibouti. The numbers of personnel, by unit, who were due to Contact information 51 participate in the Exercise, are shown in the following Personnel information 3 table: Travel details 1 Sensitive, including family, finance 17 and medical Unit Number of Personnel Private correspondence 1 Commando Amphibious Forces— 50 Photograph and identifying 1 Battlestaff information HQ 3 Commando Brigade RM 55 Total 74 42 Commando Group 500 30 Commando (IX) Group RM 130 Defence: Scotland (elements) 29 Commando Regt Royal Artillery 35 Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for (elements) 24 Commando Engineer Regt 30 Defence what (a) consultation and (b) meetings Ministers (elements) and officials in his Department have had with the Cdo Logistics Regt (elements) 120 Scottish Government regarding the production of its 539 ASRM (elements) 75 forthcoming White Paper on defence policy. [171183] 1 Not all personnel are Royal Marines and the numbers have been rounded. Dr Murrison: None. Engagement with the Scottish Some Royal Marines have been re-tasked on other Government on issues where the reserved matter of activity in the region, and some personnel will return to defence touches devolved matters continue as normal the UK in preparation for future exercises. and is not affected by the independence referendum or Exercise Djibouti Lion required agreement on a number the debate around it. of administrative issues in order for UK forces to gain permission to access Djibouti. Regrettably satisfactory Military Exercises agreement on some issues could not be reached in time for the Exercise to proceed. This was a value for money Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for decision; it was not for lack of available resources as has Defence (1) which Royal Navy vessels were to be deployed been reported in some quarters. Vessels involved carried for the cancelled Exercise Djibouti Lion; [171162] on with their planned exercises in the Gulf region and (2) how many Royal Marines personnel, by unit were built in additional training packages. involved in the cancelled Exercise Djibouti Lion; French units were still planned to participate in Djibouti [171163] Lion before the UK cancelled the Exercise. 837W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 838W

RAF Akrotiri Reserve Forces

Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence how much his Department has spent on what the process is for dealing with Reserve Forces improving armed forces accommodation in RAF applications; and if he will make a statement. [167197] Akrotiri, Cyprus, in each year since 2010. [167921] Anna Soubry: The process for candidates applying to Mr Francois: It will take time to gather this information, the Army Reserve is the same as for the Regular Army. I will write to the hon. Member. After the initial online application, candidates complete Substantive answer from Anna Soubry to Kevan Jones: medical screening questionnaires. If successful they proceed My predecessor undertook to write to you in answer to your to face-to-face interviews with Army Career Centre Parliamentary Question on 6 September 2013 (Official Report, staff. The interviews can also be undertaken by Army column 544W) about the Ministry of Defence’s spend on improving Reserve Liaison Officers for Army Reserve personnel. Armed Forces accommodation in RAF Akrotiri. All continuing candidates will then be assessed, including The amount spent on improving Armed Forces accommodation medically, at one of the Army’s four Assessment Centres. in RAF Akrotiri, Cyprus in each financial year since 2010-11 is as Final pre-employment checks are then conducted (including follows: a basic security/criminal record check and confirmation of medical circumstances from each candidate’s GP). If Financial Year Spend (¤) these pre-employment checks are completed successfully then the candidate can be enlisted and booked onto the 2010-11 621,657 appropriate initial (Phase 1) training course. 2011-12 3,590,814 2012-13 857,256 Territorial Army: Wales Recruitment Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Michael Fabricant: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what plans his Department has to dispose Defence what his Department’s policy is on the use of of (a) Caernarfon TA and (b) other redundant TA genetic data from asymptomatic candidates who may training centres; [170917] continue to be asymptomatic indefinitely for use in its (2) where staff currently employed at Caernarfon TA recruitment programme; and if he will make a barracks will be redeployed; [170918] statement. [171215] (3) what plans his Department has for the disposal of tied houses in relation to Caernarfon barracks. [170919] Anna Soubry: The Ministry of Defence neither collects nor uses genetic data from any candidates, asymptomatic or otherwise, in any of its recruitment programmes. Dr Murrison: It is too early to say what the long term future of the Caernarfon Territorial Army (TA) centre Redundancy site or any other redundant sites may be. Once vacated by the TA, the site, including any tied housing, will be handed over to the Defence Infrastructure Organisation Mr Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for (DIO) in line with departmental procedures. The DIO Defence what estimate he has made of the (a) costs will then see if there is any wider Ministry of Defence and (b) likely savings as a result of his Department’s (MOD) use for the site, followed by wider Government redundancy programme over the next five years. use and, if no such use is found, finally place it for sale [168068] on the open market. The effects of the Army Reserves basing announcement Anna Soubry [holding answer 9 September 2013]: may affect the working arrangements of civilian staff. The final costs and savings from redundancies and early We do not yet know the fine detail of these changes, nor release schemes over the period will depend on a number the definite time scale of implementation, but staff will of factors such as the level of natural wastage, salary, be informed at the earliest possible opportunity. Staff rank/grade and length of service of the personnel selected. affected by the changes will be managed in line with Our current assessment is that the major drawdown in MOD policy. the numbers of service personnel and civilian staff will have been completed by financial year 2014-15. We Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for estimate that the costs of exit packages in 2013-14 and Defence (1) what provision there is for training in the 2014-15 will total some £460 million. Exit costs beyond medium of Welsh at Territorial Army training centres 2014-15 are expected to be relatively small. in North Wales; [170916] We have made no estimate of the savings accruing specifically from the redundancy and early release (2) what provision is made for Welsh language programmes themselves, since they are part of broader training at TA training centres in North Wales. [170924] workforce reductions. We estimate, however, that by 2021-22 we will have achieved cumulative savings of Mr Francois: No Army training is conducted in the some £23 billion as a result of reductions in service and medium of Welsh at Territorial Army centres in north civilian personnel and greater efficiency in the conduct Wales, nor is any provision made for Welsh language of non-front line activities. training for Army personnel. 839W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 840W

Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for or by Government clients requiring that all payments to Defence what assessment he has made of the average sub-contractors are made within 19 days of the due travelling times to each TA training centre in North dates in the main contract; and if he will make a Wales. [170921] statement. [171005]

Dr Murrison: No assessment of the average travelling Elizabeth Truss: As an Executive agency of a Government times to each Territorial Army (TA) training centre in Department, the Education Funding Agency (EFA) is North Wales has been made. bound to comply with Procurement Information Notice As part of the work on Army Reserve structures and 2/2010. The notice states that compliance with the basing announced on 3 July 2013, Official Report, column Guide to Fair Payment Best Practice is a contractual 924, we did consider the distance of travel for those requirement for central Government construction clients. personnel based at the Caernarfon Territorial Army Compliance with the guide has been a contractual centre, which is being vacated, and Colwyn Bay, the requirement in the EFA’s (previously Partnerships for nearest alternative base. This showed that the majority Schools) Contractors Framework since 2009. of relevant Army Reserve personnel lived closer to The EFA has not yet used project bank accounts Colwyn Bay than they do to Caernarfon. (PBAs). The notice is clear that it is not intended to apply retrospectively to contracts already in place. The Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for EFA is currently re-procuring the Contractors Framework Defence how large the geographical area being served and is putting in place provision for the use of PBAs. by the TA training centre in Colwyn Bay is. [170922] The EFA will use PBAs for all construction procurement contracts that it enters into under the new Contractors Dr Murrison: There is no designated geographical Framework. The EFA will be encouraging all Contractors area served by any Territorial Army Centre; while recruiting Framework users to adopt PBAs although it is might be limited to a reasonable area, attendees can acknowledged that there are some limited circumstances come from much further afield. when their use may not be appropriate; in those circumstances, compliance with the guide will continue Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for to be required. Defence what the average attendance at each TA training centre in North Wales has been in each of the Free Schools last 12 months. [170923]

Dr Murrison: I will write to the hon. Member with Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for the information requested. Education how many and what proportion of applications to open free schools were made by (a) academy sponsors and (b) teacher-led groups in each year since the inception of free schools. [170908] EDUCATION Anti-Slavery Day Mr Timpson: All free schools are set up with the involvement of educational experts and all successful Mark Field: To ask the Secretary of State for applications must show sufficient educational capacity. Education what each Minister in his Department will Looking only at free schools proposers which have be doing to acknowledge Anti-Slavery Day on 18 self-identified as ‘teacher-led groups’ or ‘academy sponsor October 2013; and if he will make a statement. [171036] groups’ does not, therefore, provide a full picture of the range of individuals and groups involved in the set-up Elizabeth Truss: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply and running of a free school. The Department received given to my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and 70 (22%) applications from groups describing themselves Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) on 24 June 2013, Official as teacher-led in 2010, 72 (26%) in 2011, 35 (15%) in Report, column 128W. 2012 and 35 (11%) in 2013. The equivalent figures for applicants classifying Disciplinary Proceedings themselves as academy sponsors are: 11 (3%) in 2010, 19 (7%) in 2011, 39 (16%) in 2012 and 77 (24%) in 2013. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Some applications—while identified as academy sponsor how many members of staff in his Department are groups–may be led by teacher groups who have opted to currently suspended; and for how long each such member partner with an academy sponsor to bolster their expertise of staff has been suspended. [171245] and capacity.

Elizabeth Truss: No members of staff at the Department GCSE for Education are currently suspended.

Education Funding Agency Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what proportion of pupils achieved five or Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for more GCSEs at grade C or above, including mathematics Education with reference to Cabinet Office Procurement and English (a) in London, (b) in other areas of Information Note 2/2010, whether the Education Funding England and (c) in England; and what proportion of Agency is required to comply with the advice that firms such pupils (i) spoke and (ii) did not speak English as an in construction supply chains should have payment additional language in each of the last three years. security either through the use of project bank accounts [171231] 841W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 842W

Mr Laws: The requested information on the proportion Munro Review of pupils achieving five or more GCSEs at grade C or above, including English and mathematics by region, Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for local authority and by English as a first language can be Education what progress he has made on implementing found in the Department’s Statistical First Release: each of the recommendations of the Munro Review of ‘GCSE and equivalent attainment by pupil characteristics child protection. [171151] in England: 2011 to 2012.’1 The link ″National and local authority tables SFR04/ Mr Timpson: The following recommendations made 2013″ table 4 contains the information required. There by Professor Munro have been implemented in full: is a drop down box in the top right hand corner of the 1. the re-design of the inspection framework for services to table which allows the filtering of each year back to safeguard children, including taking into account the feelings and 2008. experiences of children and young people about the services they receive; 1 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gcse-and-equivalent 2. publication of a revised children’s safeguarding performance -attainment-by-pupil-characteristics-in-england information framework; 3. new guidance issued on the role of directors of children’s services and lead members; Higher Education: South Yorkshire 4. stopping the evaluation by Ofsted of serious case reviews; 5. implementation of the professional capabilities framework Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for for social workers; Education what proportion of school leavers in (a) 6. recruitment of two chief social workers, one to focus on Barnsley Central constituency, (b) Barnsley, (c) south children and families social work and the other on adult social work; and Yorkshire and (d) England went on to complete higher 7. publication of ’Safeguarding vulnerable people in the reformed education in each of the last five years. [171062] NHS: accountability and assurance framework’. 8. the publication of the revised statutory guidance, ‘Working Mr Laws: Destination Measures data were published together to safeguard children’, in March 2013 provided full for the first time in July 2012 and covered the sustained implementation of the following recommendations: educational destinations for academic year 2009/10. 9. revision of ’Working together to safeguard children’ and Constituency and regional level data are available only ’The framework for the assessment of children in need and their for the 2010/11 Destination Measures, published in families’, including greater focus on the offer of early help; 2013. 10. strengthening the role and responsibilities of Local Safeguarding Children’s Boards (LSCBS); The higher education destinations for Barnsley Central 11. requiring LSCBS to produce an annual report submitted to constituency, Barnsley local authority, Yorkshire and the chief executive and leader of the council; and the Humber region, and England are shown in the 12. promoting the use of systems methodology in undertaking following table: serious case reviews. Percentage of KS5 students, entered for a Level 3 qualification,1 going Substantial progress is being made on implementing into a sustained2 higher education destination in academic years the other key recommendations, including supporting 2009/10 and 2010/11 local areas in the redesign of their social work practice Percentage and designating a Principal Child and Family Social 2009/10 2010/11 Worker in each local authority. Barnsley Central 3—35In respect of Professor Munro’s recommendation on constituency introducing a duty to secure provision of early help Barnsley local 46 38 services, the Government has concluded that there is authority sufficient legislation in place to deliver early help services Yorkshire and the 53 49 to children and families. We are continuing to work Humber region with sector partners to reinforce existing legislation and England 52 48 understand how early help offers in local areas can be 1 A-level or other level 3 qualifications. improved. 2 Sustained for the first two terms, October to March. 3 Not available. Parents: Education Ministerial Policy Advisers Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) what estimate he has made of the proportion of parents who have taken up classes in the CANparent Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for trial areas who have below average household income; Education how many complaints his Department has received about its special advisers since May 2010; what [171139] proportion of these complaints were investigated; and (2) how many parents have taken up CANparent free if he will make a statement. [171246] parenting classes in the trial programmes in (a) Middlesbrough, (b) High Peak, (c) Camden and (d) Bristol to date. [171122] Elizabeth Truss: I refer the hon. Member to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing Mr Timpson: Data on the household income of parents and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), on 25 February 2013, who have taken up classes in the CANparent Trial areas Official Report, column 52W. are not held by the Department. 843W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 844W

As of 15 October 2013, 417 parents have taken up apply to undertake the new early years educator CANparent classes in Middlesbrough, 307 in High qualifications during 2013-14 and will start their courses Peak and 705 in Camden. The Department does not in September 2014. currently hold data on the number of parents taking up During this transition, and to support the delivery of classes in Bristol. This trial area is operating under an early learning places for two-year-olds, we have introduced alternative model with less central management. this September an apprenticeship bursary scheme of £2 million for the early years profession to provide up to Pre-school Education 1,000 bursaries to highly qualified people aspiring to a career in early education. The Teach First programme has also been extended, from July this year, to include Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for those working in the early years. Education what assessment his Department has made of the (a) supply of and (b) demand for early years Public Appointments workers in each of the next three years. [169979] Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Elizabeth Truss: The early years and child care market what the role of non-executive board members of his is dynamic and diverse and we expect it to respond Department is; and if he will make a statement. [171033] positively to a growing demand for places, including Elizabeth Truss: Non-executives provide advice and through the recruitment of additional high quality staff. bring an external perspective to the business of Government We know that the quality of the workforce is a crucial Departments; they do not have ’executive’ decision element of high quality early years provision, and that making powers. teachers, or other suitably qualified graduates, are Non-executives exercise their role through advice and particularly effective. The Government is, therefore, challenge. They support and challenge the Executive on taking action to raise the status of the profession and a range of areas, including implementation of the. help attract high quality people into early education. Department’s business plan and operational and delivery We have introduced early years teachers who will implications of departmental policy proposals. specialise in early childhood development. Entrants to Pupil Exclusions: Greater Manchester these courses (which started in September 2013) will need to meet the same requirements, and pass the same Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for skills tests, as trainee school teachers. Early years teachers Education how many exclusions there have been in (a) recruitment closed on 30 September and achieved 2,327 Denton and Reddish constituency, (b) the metropolitan trainees (97%) against a target of 2,400. This recruitment borough of Tameside and (c) the metropolitan borough level is higher than the previous September 2012 Early of Stockport in each of the last 10 years. [171225] Years Professional Status (EYPS) recruitment of 78%. This successful outcome has been achieved in the context Elizabeth Truss: Information on the number of of tougher entry requirements for September 2013 with permanent exclusions and the number of fixed period the addition of science GCSE. exclusions in Denton and Reddish constituency, Tameside The market will also benefit from the introduction of local authority, Stockport local authority and England early years educators. Only the best qualifications, which is shown in the following tables. meet rigorous criteria (which we published in the summer) Information has been provided for 2008/09 to 2011/12. set out by the National College of Teaching Leadership, To provide data for further years would incur will earn the early years educator title. Candidates can disproportionate cost.

State-funded primary, state-funded secondary schools and special schools1, 2, 3, 4. Number of permanent exclusions and number of fixed period exclusions. 2008/09 to 2011/125. England, Tameside local authority, Stockport local authority and Denton and Reddish constituency

Permanent exclusions

2008/09

State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1, 3 Special4 Total1, 2, 3, 4

Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of permanent the school permanent the school permanent the school permanent the school exclusions population6 exclusions population6 exclusions population6 exclusions population6

England 720 0.02 5,700 0.17 120 0.13 6,550 0.09

Tameside local 10 0.05 35 0.24 0 0.00 50 0.13 authority

Stockport local x x 49 0.33 0 0.00 50 0.13 authority

Denton and x x 18 0.28 0 0.00 20 0.16 Reddish constituency 845W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 846W

Permanent exclusions 2009/10 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1, 3 Special4 Total1, 2, 3, 4 Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of permanent the school permanent the school permanent the school permanent the school exclusions population6 exclusions population6 exclusions population6 exclusions population6

England 620 0.02 5,020 0.15 100 0.11 5,740 0.08 Tameside local 8 0.04 30 0.21 0 0.00 40 0.11 authority Stockport local 0 0.00 49 0.33 0 0.00 50 0.13 authority Denton and x x 11 0.18 0 0.00 10 0.09 Reddish constituency

Permanent exclusions 2010/11 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1, 3 Special4 Total1, 2, 3, 4 Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of permanent the school permanent the school permanent the school permanent the school exclusions population6 exclusions population6 exclusions population6 exclusions population6

England 610 0.01 4,370 0.13 110 0.12 5,080 0.07 Tameside local x x 33 0.24 0 0.00 40 0.10 authority Stockport local x x 44 0.31 0 0.00 50 0.12 authority Denton and x x 17 0.31 0 0.00 20 0.14 Reddish constituency

Permanent exclusions 2011/12 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1, 3 Special4 Total1, 2, 3, 4 Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of permanent the school permanent the school permanent the school permanent the school exclusions population6 exclusions population6 exclusions population6 exclusions population6

England 690 0.02 4,390 0.14 80 0.09 5,170 0.07 Tameside local 9 0.04 43 0.31 0 0.00 50 0.15 authority Stockport local 0 0.00 39 0.27 0 0.00 40 0.10 authority Denton and x x 18 0.30 0 0.00 20 0.15 Reddish constituency

Fixed period exclusions 2008/09 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1, 3 Special4 Total1, 2, 3, 4 Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of fixed period the school fixed period the school fixed period the school fixed period the school exclusions population7 exclusions population7 exclusions population7 exclusions population7

England 39,510 0.97 307,840 9.41 15,930 17.71 363,280 4.89 Tameside local 243 1.24 1,617 11.06 86 22.05 1,950 5.61 authority Stockport local 87 0.39 1,828 12.35 63 10.38 1,980 5.22 authority Denton and 95 1.32 748 11.61 0 0.00 840 6.15 Reddish constituency

Fixed period exclusions 2009/10 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1, 3 Special4 Total1, 2, 3, 4 Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of fixed period the school fixed period the school fixed period the school fixed period the school exclusions population7 exclusions population7 exclusions population7 exclusions population7

England 37,210 0.91 279,260 8.59 14,910 16.46 331,380 4.46 Tameside local 287 1.45 1,519 10.62 118 31.55 1,920 5.59 authority 847W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 848W

Fixed period exclusions 2009/10 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1, 3 Special4 Total1, 2, 3, 4 Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of fixed period the school fixed period the school fixed period the school fixed period the school exclusions population7 exclusions population7 exclusions population7 exclusions population7

Stockport local 119 0.53 1,382 9.42 95 17.56 1,600 4.23 authority Denton and 83 1.14 481 7.68 x x 570 4.18 Reddish constituency

Fixed period exclusions 2010/11 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1, 3 Special4 Total1, 2, 3, 4 Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of fixed period the school fixed period the school fixed period the school fixed period the school exclusions population7 exclusions population7 exclusions population7 exclusions population7

England 37,790 0.91 271,980 8.40 14,340 15.66 324,110 4.34 Tameside local 299 1.50 1,518 10.83 89 24.25 1,910 5.56 authority Stockport local 113 0.49 1,567 10.88 109 18.96 1,790 4.71 authority Denton and 58 0.78 532 9.83 x x 590 4.58 Reddish constituency

Fixed period exclusions 2011/12 State-funded primary1, 2 State-funded secondary1, 3 Special4 Total1, 2, 3, 4 Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of fixed period the school fixed period the school fixed period the school fixed period the school exclusions population7 exclusions population7 exclusions population7 exclusions population7

England 37,790 0.90 252,210 7.85 14,370 15.39 304,370 4.05 Tameside local 328 1.63 1,519 11.06 117 33.05 1,960 5.74 authority Stockport local 147 0.63 1,622 11.36 111 17.73 1,880 4.93 authority Denton and 76 1.00 611 10.31 x x 690 5.07 Reddish constituency x = Less than 5, or a percentage based on less than 5. 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes primary academies. 3 Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies (including all-through academies). 4 Includes maintained special schools, non-maintained special schools and special academies. Excludes general hospital schools. 5 Figures relating to permanent exclusions for the years 2008/09 to 2009/10 are estimates based on incomplete pupil-level data. 6 The number of permanent exclusions expressed as a percentage of the number (headcount) of pupils (excluding dually registered pupils) as at January each year. 7 The number of fixed period exclusions expressed as a percentage of the number (headcount) of pupils (excluding dually registered pupils) as at January each year. Note: National and total figures may not appear to equal the sum of component parts because numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: School Census

Pupils: Bullying example, race, religion, gender or sexual orientation. Our advice includes signposts to organisations, such as Stonewall, EACH and School’s Out, where schools can Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Education access specialist information and advice on dealing with when his Department last updated its guidance to schools issues such as homophobic bullying. on homophobic bullying and language. [171201] Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Elizabeth Truss: We substantively updated our bullying if his Department will review its guidance to schools on advice to schools in 2011, making it shorter and more homophobic bullying and language. [171202] accessible so that schools are clear about their legal obligations and powers. In July 2013 we made some Elizabeth Truss: We regularly review our guidance on minor changes mainly to tighten the drafting in relation behaviour and bullying to ensure that it is useful to to the legal obligations on maintained schools and schools. The current advice will next be formally reviewed academies in respect of their behaviour policies. in spring 2014. We will ensure that it contains up-to-date The advice states that all schools should have a advice and signposting to specialist organisations to behaviour policy. This should contain measures to prevent help schools tackle all forms of bullying, particularly all forms of bullying, including bullying based on prejudice that which is motivated by prejudice such as homophobic against any particular groups, on the grounds of, for bullying and language. 849W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 850W

Pupils: Coastal Areas Local authorities are responsible for ensuring that schools submit SFVS returns and the EFA will be notified at Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for that point if any warrant further investigation. Education with reference to the Ofsted publication, The assurance statements for 2012 to 2013 show that: Unseen children: access and achievement 20 years on, (a) There are no SFVS declarations outstanding in Barnsley page 7, column 1, paragraph 2, what assessment he has local authority. made of the educational achievement of pupils in (b) The area of the former South Yorkshire Metropolitan coastal towns. [171153] Council includes Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham and Sheffield local authorities: Mr Timpson: Research published by the Department for Communities and Local Government on seaside There are no SFVS declarations outstanding from schools in Barnsley; towns in 20081, found that educational attainment varies considerably between areas. There are no SFVS declarations outstanding from schools in Doncaster; More information on pupil attainment at local authority, super output area and ward is available via the There are no SFVS declarations outstanding from schools in Neighbourhood Statistics website2. Rotherham; and 1https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ There are four SFVS declarations outstanding from schools in attachment_data/file/7624/englishseasidetowns.pdf Sheffield. 2 Neighbourhood Statistics—Home Page. A total of four SFVS declarations are outstanding from the area of the former South Yorkshire Metropolitan Schools: Bible Council. (c) 1.1% of SFVS declarations are currently outstanding Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for from the total number of maintained schools in England. Education what the total cost to his Department of his King James Bible project has been; what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of that project; and if he Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for will make a statement. [171244] Education how many schools financial value standard declarations for the last financial year in (a) Barnsley Elizabeth Truss: There was no cost to the Department Central constituency, (b) south Yorkshire and (c) for the King James Bible project. The costs were met in England have warranted further investigation. [171065] full by charitable donations. These costs were published on the Department for Education website in February Mr Laws: The Education Funding Agency (EFA) 2013 at the following link: monitors Schools Financial Value Standard (SFVS) https://www.education.gov.uk/schools/toolsandinitiatives/ declarations through local authorities’ dedicated schools b00205257/king-james-bible grant assurance statements. The assurance statements We have made no formal assessment of the project. It for 2012 to 2013 show that 99% of SFVS returns have is for schools to decide how they use the King James been submitted by schools in England. The assurance Bible to support the teaching of English literature and statements confirm that local authorities have systems language, history, drama, art, music, and religious education in place that give adequate assurance over schools standards or in school projects. of financial management and the regularity and propriety of their expenditure. Therefore, the SFVS returns covered Schools: Finance by the assurance statements do not warrant further investigation. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many schools financial value standard Local authorities are responsible for ensuring that declarations for (a) Barnsley Central constituency, (b) schools submit SFVS returns and the EFA will be south Yorkshire and (c) England are outstanding from notified at that point if any warrant further investigation. the last financial year. [171064]

Mr Laws: The Schools Financial Value Standard The Guardian (SFVS) was introduced to local authority maintained schools in the academic year from September 2011. The Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for SFVS does not apply to academies and free schools, but Education how much his Department spent on they can use the standard if they find it useful. advertising with (a) The Guardian newspaper, (b) The The first collation of data was from September 2011 Guardian website and (c) The Guardian Media Group to 31 March 2012, applicable only for those schools that in (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11, (iii) 2011-12 and (iv) did not achieve the Financial Management Standard in 2012-13. [171154] Schools (FMSiS) before. All the remaining schools were required to submit their SFVS forms by 31 March 2013, with an annual review thereafter. Elizabeth Truss: The financial accounting system within The Education Funding Agency (EFA) monitors the the Department does not allow analysis to the level of submission of SFVS declarations through local authorities’ detail requested in (a) and (b). dedicated schools grant assurance statements. It is a Data are only available up to 2010-11 because, since mandatory requirement for all local authority maintained 2011, the Department has used the Central Office of schools to complete the SFVS assessment form on an Information and Creative Choices to procure advertising, annual basis and submit a signed copy to their authority. without recording the identity of the end supplier. 851W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 852W

The Department has spent the following amounts Mrs Grant: Overseas call centres that are engaged by with The Guardian News and Media Group: UK companies to make marketing calls on their behalf must comply with the Privacy and Electronic Communications £ Regulations (PECR) 2003. Callers are legally required Advertising Total to ensure they do not call a number that is Telephone Preference Service (TPS) registered, or if they have 2007-08 0.00 2,445,787.76 previously been notified by the caller not to make 2008-09 2,428.80 1,729,695.24 further calls. The Information Commissioner’s Office 2009-10 0.00 724,206.75 can issue a monetary penalty of up to £500,000 for 2010-11 5,232.00 421,850.36 companies breaching PECR. Additionally, callers are required to ensure compliance with Ofcom’s persistent misuse guidelines in relation to silent and abandoned CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT calls and Ofcom can issue monetary penalties of up to £2 million for companies breaching its persistent misuse Billing rules. As part of the strategy paper published in July https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/connectivity- Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, content-and-consumers-britains-digital-platform-for-growth Media and Sport how many invoices were processed by my Department has committed to consider further measures her Department in the last financial year which figures to enable improved enforcement action against nuisance are available. [171196] calls. This includes legislating to allow sharing of information between Ofcom and ICO and consideration Mrs Grant: In last the financial year (1 April 2012 to of measures to lower the legal threshold to allow ICO 31 March 2013) the Department processed 5,285 invoices. to issue more monetary penalties. Further thinking will be set out in an action plan in the autumn. Direct Selling

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what measures are in place BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS to prevent nuisance calls originating from outside the UK. [170909] Adoption: Self-employed

Mrs Grant: The Privacy and Electronic Communications Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Regulations (PECR) 2003 prevents nuisance marketing Business, Innovation and Skills if he will bring forward calls being made from within the UK and also from an amendment to the Children and Families Bill to outside the UK on behalf of UK companies. Callers extend statutory adoption pay and maternity allowance are legally required to ensure they do not call a number to self-employed adopters. [171067] that is Telephone Preference Service (TPS) registered, or if they have previously been notified by the caller not Jo Swinson: The Government has no plans to introduce to make further calls. The Information Commissioner’s an amendment to provide statutory adoption pay to Office (ICO) considers complaints about breaches of self-employed adopters. Statutory adoption guidance the PECR and can issue a monetary penalty of up to asks local authorities to consider making a payment to £500,000 to callers who wilfully or negligently breach self-employed adopters equivalent to maternity allowance. the regulations. In addition, the Office of Communications (Ofcom) under the Communications Act 2003 covers This payment is discretionary and means-tested to silent and abandoned calls through their persistent misuse ensure that resources are targeted at those adopters who powers. This includes calls that originate from outside need it most and forms part of a package of post-adoption the UK made on behalf of UK companies and Ofcom support available to prospective adopters (irrespective can issue a monetary penalty of up to £2 million to of whether they are self-employed or not) once they company for a breach of its persistent misuse rules have been approved as an adoptive parent and linked to covering silent and abandoned calls. Marketing calls a child. made from outside of the UK on behalf of non-UK We have committed to review the provision of shared companies are outside of the UK’s jurisdiction. As part parental pay for all self-employed after 2018. This would of the strategy paper published in July also consider the provision of shared parental pay to https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/connectivity- self-employed adoptive parents. content-and-consumers-britains-digital-platform-for-growth my Department has committed to consider further measures Business: Greater Manchester to enable improved enforcement action against nuisance calls. This includes legislating to allow sharing of Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for information between Ofcom and ICO and consideration Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses in of measures to lower the legal threshold to allow ICO (a) Denton and Reddish constituency, (b) the Metropolitan to issue more monetary penalties. Further thinking will Borough of Tameside and (c) the Metropolitan Borough be set out in an action plan in the autumn. of Stockport were owned solely by women in the most recent period for which figures are available. [171229] Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what measures are in place to prevent Matthew Hancock: Information is not available to companies in the UK employing foreign call centres to answer this question for these specific geographical make nuisance sales calls on their behalf. [170910] areas. 853W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 854W

However, estimates from the BIS Small Business Survey As part of the post-implementation review BIS will show that 18% of small and medium-size enterprises in use information from a number of sources to make an the UK were either solely led by women, or had a assessment of the take up of the new status. management team of which the majority were women. Those thinking of using the new status may seek This equates to around 860,000 small and medium-sized advice from a number of different sources such as their enterprises (SMEs).1 legal contacts, or a helpline or business organisation. Further information is available via the link provided These are likely to provide information on take up. below: External Trade https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/small-business- survey-2012-businesses-led-by-women-and-ethnic-minorities The Small Business Survey is not large enough to John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, provide estimates for smaller areas. Innovation and Skills which Ministers are responsible for the ongoing Transatlantic Trade and Investment 1 Private sector businesses with fewer than 250 employees. Partnership negotiations; and if he will make a statement. Centre on Migration Policy and Society [170990] Michael Fallon: The Minister of State for Trade and Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Investment, my noble Friend Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint, Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer is responsible for trade policy including EU Free Trade of 13 May 2013, Official Report, column 81W, on Agreement (FTA) negotiations such as the Transatlantic Centre on Migration, Policy and Society, for what purposes Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP). The Secretary that funding was granted; and for what purpose that of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right funding was used. [170850] hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), is the Cabinet Minister responsible for TTIP and the Minister Mr Willetts: Funding has been used for COMPAS’ without Portfolio, my right hon. and learned Friend the current research programme grouped around five thematic Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), is also closely clusters, each addressing one element of the migration involved in our work to engage with business and build process: political support for an ambitious deal in the EU and Flows and Dynamics—exploring global migration flows and the US. the dynamics that drive, facilitate and inhibit migration. TTIP is a priority for the Government and has the Labour Markets—analysing the socio-economics of international potential to be the largest bilateral trade agreement in labour migration, particularly the economics and politics of labour shortages and demand. history and to bring significant economic benefits in terms of growth and jobs to both sides of the Atlantic. Citizenship and Belonging—addressing the relationship between mobility, citizenship and the numerous ways in which people The UK has consistently pushed for an ambitious ’belong’. agreement that cuts tariffs, addresses behind-the-border barriers and helps to achieve regulatory coherence between Urban Change and Settlement—challenging assumptions around movement and settlement patterns, investigating emergent urbanisms Europe and the US. and processes of integration. Green Investment Bank Welfare—addressing the relationship between migration and welfare provision in ‘receiving’ and ‘sending’ countries. Simon Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Eligible costs on Research Council-funded grants Business, Innovation and Skills what contribution he include Principal and Co- Investigator time, staffing, expects the Green Investment Bank to make to green travel and subsistence, equipment and survey costs, growth. [900535] estates and indirect costs and the predicted costs for any communication, knowledge exchange, public engagement Michael Fallon: Funded with £3.8 billion to March 2016, or other impact activities planned throughout the project. the Government expects the Green Investment Bank to The COMPAS grant includes funding across all these play a significant role in accelerating the UK’s progress headings. towards a green economy both through its direct Research Council funding is made on the basis of full involvement in financing green projects and by helping Economic Costing, supporting 80% of eligible costs, to improve the overall financing environment and attracting with the remaining 20% provided by the host institution. new sources of capital into relevant green sectors. To All expenditure to date has been in line with Research date, the bank has committed £714 million in to green Council funding rules. projects with every £1 invested mobilising approaching £3 of further investment from the private sector. Employee Ownership Royal Mail Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for businesses have taken on an employee shareholder to Business, Innovation and Skills what representations he date; and how many people are employed on employee has received from the Northern Ireland Executive on shareholder contracts. [171287] the privatisation of Royal Mail; and if he will make a statement. [171264] Jo Swinson: The new status came into effect on 1 September 2013. BIS has not collected any statistics to Michael Fallon: I have not received any representation date. It is a voluntary option that some employers may from the Northern Ireland Executive regarding the sale wish to consider using. of Royal Mail. 855W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 856W

Sri Lanka Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) collects and publishes statistics on students enrolled at UK higher education institutions (HEIs). Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Information on the number of entrants not continuing Business, Innovation and Skills whether a trade delegation in higher education after their first year is published as will be accompanying the Secretary of State for Foreign part of ‘Performance Indicators in Higher Education in and Commonwealth Affairs and the Prime Minister to the UK’, which is available at the following link: Sri Lanka for the upcoming Commonwealth Heads of http://www.hesa.ac.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task Government meeting. [171248] =view&id=2064<emid=141 However, there are no statistics available on the number Michael Fallon: The British Government will be of students who do not continue in higher education, represented at Commonwealth Heads of Government specifically, as a result of not receiving their student Meeting (CHOGM) by the Prime Minister, Secretary of loan on time. State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and Minister Universities will often offer help to students in of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office. There are circumstances where loans are not received on time. currently no plans for a trade delegation to accompany any Government representatives to CHOGM. Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Some UK companies will attend the Commonwealth Business, Innovation and Skills what assistance his Business Forum which takes place before CHOGM on Department makes available to students who do not 12-14 November. receive their student loan on time. [171311] Mr Willetts: I am informed by the Student Loans Students: Loans Company that all complete applications received with the required evidence before the deadline are processed Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for in date order and will lead to payment before the start Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what value of loans of term. For late applications, or those where there is a provided by the Student Loan Company were paid late requirement for further evidence, SLC will attempt to in each of the last five years; [171309] ensure that at least the minimum non-means tested payment is made available to students. Further payments (2) how many loans provided by the Student Loan can then be made when evidence to demonstrate entitlement Company that were paid late were paid within (a) one has been received and processed. The further evidence month, (b) two months and (c) three months of the will almost always be financial evidence to support an original payment data in each of the last five years. application for the means tested element of support. [171313] Students who are facing financial hardship may be eligible to receive assistance from the Access to Learning Mr Willetts: Information is not available in the form Fund. This is a discretionary fund administered by requested. Information about the performance of Student higher education institutions. This year £37.4 million Loans Company (SLC) in the administration of student Government funding has been distributed to institutions finance is included in their annual report. The latest to finance this fund. annual report, for the 2012-13 financial year, stated that 99.9% of student finance applications1 were processed Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for before the start of term. Business, Innovation and Skills what value of student loans were granted in each of the last five years. http://www.slc.co.uk/media/632300/slc_annual_report _1213_v14_final.pdf [171312] 1 Student finance core applications received before the published Mr Willetts: Figures on the amount of loans awarded deadlines. and paid to students are shown in the table. These statistics are published each year by the Student Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Loans Company (SLC) in the publication ‘Student Business, Innovation and Skills how many students Support for Higher Education in England’. The latest were unable to continue with their university education publication is available via the following link and the as a result of not receiving their student loan on time in relevant tables are 4A and 4B: the last academic year. [171310] http://www.slc.co.uk/statistics/national-statistics

Payment and award of Tuition fee and Maintenance loans to full-time students, academic years 2008/09 to 2012/13 Amount of maintenance loans1 (£ million) Amount of tuition fee loan2 (£ million) Awarded (mid November during the Paid (end of August following Awarded (mid November during Paid (end of August following Academic year relevant academic year) the relevant academic year) the relevant academic year) the relevant academic year)

2008/09 2,541.2 2,717.0 2,047.7 1,981.1 2009/10 2,704.4 2,946.0 2,465.2 2,344.2 2010/11 3,000.1 3,103.1 2,756.7 2,552.8 2011/12 3,250.8 3,330.9 3,063.8 2,840.1 2012/13 (provisional) 3,310.2 n/a 4,633.9 n/a n/a = Not available. 1 Maintenance Loan amounts granted to full-time applicants domiciled in England. 2 Tuition fee loan amounts granted to full-time applicants domiciled in England and EU applicants studying in England. Source: Student Loans Company (SLC) 857W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 858W

The figures for 2012/13 were provisional. Final figures one apprenticeship or other qualification will appear on Student Support for 2012/13 will be published by the more than once. The SFR will be published here on 28 Student Loans Company in November 2013. November: Statistics on Student Support Awards are collated http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/Statistics/ two months into the academic year and give an early statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current/ indication of the likely trend in expenditure and are subject to change over the course of the academic year. Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Statistics on Student Support Payments cover the eventual Innovation and Skills when he plans to publish analysis expenditure after completion of the full academic year. produced by (a) his Department and (b) the UK Commission for Employment and Skills on the performance of round one of the Employer Ownership of Skills Vocational Training pilot. [171300]

Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Matthew Hancock: The Department, in conjunction Innovation and Skills what criteria he is using to judge with the UK Commission for Employment and Skills, whether round one of the Employer Ownership of has commissioned an independent evaluation of the Skills pilot has been successful. [171297] impact and value for money for Round 1 of the Employer Ownership of Skills pilot. This is being conducted by Matthew Hancock: The Department has commissioned CFE in collaboration with the university of Sheffield an independent evaluation of Round 1 of the Employer and Qa Research. Ownership of Skills Pilot, which is being conducted by The final impact evaluation report is due in September CFE in collaboration with the university of Sheffield 2017 with annual reports earmarked as follows: and Qa Research. The overall aim of this evaluation is to provide evidence of the impact of the pilot and an Summer 2014: baseline report; assessment of whether giving employers direct access to Summer 2015: annual progress report; public funding has increased or improved their investment Summer 2016: annual progress report. in skills, or enabled them to demonstrate more effective ways of improving skills in the workforce than they can currently achieve through mainstream funding. The evaluation will gather evidence from employers, providers, JUSTICE learners and other stakeholders to ensure that we can Prisoners: British Nationals Abroad evaluate the pilot processes; assess the impact and determine whether the pilot achieves value for money. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, who pays for the flights and associated security of Innovation and Skills how many of the Employer British citizens jailed abroad coming to serve their Ownership of Skills pilot projects in round one (a) had prison time in the UK; and who makes the decision a funding agreement in place, (b) had received funding, about such prisoners being permitted to serve their time (c) have started and (d) had been completed as of in UK prisons. [170971] 1 October 2013. [171298] Jeremy Wright: British nationals imprisoned abroad Matthew Hancock: Information on Round 1 projects who voluntarily seek to serve their sentences in the in the Employer Ownership pilot is compiled by SFA on United Kingdom are required to pay the cost of their a quarterly basis. The next update is due in early November. own airfare. Other associated costs such as the provision of an escort are met by the National Offender Management Currently, (a) all 36 projects have a signed grant Service. offer letter and (b) 35 of these have received funding. Where a British national is transferred to the United (c) All 36 projects are operational and will receive Kingdom to continue serving his sentence here without funding over a number of years. One project has started that person’s consent, all costs involved in the transfer to deliver but has not yet made their first claim. are met by the sentencing state which is responsible for (d) None of the projects have been completed. delivering the prisoner to the United Kingdom. That is the sort of delivery you can expect from this The Secretary of State is responsible for the repatriation Government. of prisoners into and out of England and Wales. Responsibility for the determination of individual Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for applications is delegated to officials within the National Business, Innovation and Skills how many individuals Offender Management Service. All cases relating to (a) have completed and (b) are in the process of high profile or high security transfers are referred to completing (i) apprenticeship frameworks and (ii) other Ministers for decision. nationally-recognised qualifications as part of round The transfer of prisoners into and out of Scotland, one the Employer Ownership of Skills as of 1 October and into and out of Northern Ireland is a devolved 2013. [171299] matter and separate arrangements may apply in those jurisdictions. Matthew Hancock: Data on the number of starts and achievements for apprenticeships and other qualifications Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for as part of Round 1 of the Employer Ownership Project Justice how many British citizens who committed crime will be published in the November 2013 Statistical First abroad are serving their time in UK jails; and at what Release (SFR). Individuals starting/achieving more than total cost to the public purse. [170972] 859W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 860W

Jeremy Wright: From 1 January 2007 to date, 493 Total British citizens have transferred from prisons abroad to prisons in England and Wales in order to serve their 2010 945 sentences here. 2011 953 NOMS central databases are unable to identify separately 2012 979 those prisoners who have returned to the UK and who remain in custody as a result of that sentence. The proportion of prisoners transferred to hospital has remained stable in recent years. NOMS does not calculate separately the cost of British citizens who committed crime abroad and are serving their sentences in prisons in England and Wales. Prisoners: Repatriation NOMS does not analyse cost by prisoner nationality, gender or individual prisoner level, as costs recorded on Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the NOMS central accounting system do not allow Justice how many foreign nationals sentenced in the identification of costs attributable to holding individual UK have chosen to spend their prison sentence in their offenders. home country in each of the last three years. [170966] The transfer of prisoners into and out of Scotland, and into and out of Northern Ireland is a devolved Jeremy Wright: The number of foreign nationals matter and is the responsibility of the relevant Minister. sentenced to imprisonment in England and Wales who have voluntarily returned to serve their sentence in Prisoners: Mental Capacity prisons in their home country in each of the last three years is as follows: Mr Cox: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what steps he is taking to ensure that the protections Number offered by the Mental Capacity Act 2008 are available 2010 41 to those in HM prisons. [169803] 2011 33 2012 41 Jeremy Wright: As in the community, prison mental health services are provided through a combination of The repatriation of prisoners to and from Scotland, primary care and specialist teams. Most prisoners’ mental and to and from Northern Ireland is a devolved matter. health care needs can be met by primary care. Prisoners are screened on arrival in prison by trained staff to identify their health needs, including any requirement for a mental health assessment. WORK AND PENSIONS Prison Service Instruction 64/2011—Safer Custody has a dedicated chapter on complex behaviours providing Annual Reports an overview of mental health, including mental capacity, and staff are required to comply with it. Compliance is Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State tested by the Chief Inspector of Prisons and Independent for Work and Pensions when his Department’s Annual Monitoring Boards. Report and Accounts for 2012-13 will be published. The National Offender Management Service also [171284] provides mental health training for relevant staff. Esther McVey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I Prisoners: Mental Illness provided to the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) on 8 October 2013, Official Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Report, column 172W. how many prisoners have been transferred to hospital under the Mental Health Act 1983 in each of the last Cold Weather Payments 10 years. [171092] Sarah Newton: To ask the Secretary of State for Jeremy Wright: The number of prisoners directed to Work and Pensions what estimate his Department has hospital for treatment under the Mental Health Act made of the number of people eligible for cold weather 1983 in each of the past 10 years is set out in the table. payments in each weather station area of the UK. These figure include persons sectioned under section [171204] 47 (sentenced prisoners) and section 48 (unsentenced prisoners, immigration detainees and civil prisoners). Steve Webb: The estimates for the number of people eligible for cold weather payments in each weather Total station area in the UK will not be available until the end 2003 722 of October. The estimates are produced by a scan of the systems immediately prior to the start of the cold 2004 831 weather payment season, commencing 1 November 2013. 2005 834 The scan is conducted as close as possible to the start of 2006 894 the cold weather season to best represent the most 2007 873 accurate number of eligible customers. 2008 926 2009 940 When the estimates become available I will place a copy in the House of Commons Library. 861W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 862W

Employment and Support Allowance: Bradford Individual circumstances vary widely and local authorities are best placed to determine these based on local knowledge. Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many employment and support allowance Housing Benefit: Scotland (ESA) applicants from Bradford were signed off ESA before their appeals were heard in the last 12 months. Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work [171123] and Pensions what payments his Department plans to make from the discretionary housing payment budget Esther McVey: The information requested is not readily to each of Scotland’s local authorities in the year 2014-15; available and could be provided only at disproportionate and what proportion of the overall discretionary housing cost. payment budget this represents in each local authority area. [171568] Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the success rate of appeals of decisions Steve Webb: The discretionary housing payment on entitlement to employment and support allowance allocation for the 2014-15 financial year will not be from Bradford was in the last 12 months. [171141] available until early next year. Mike Penning: The information requested, for new Jobcentre Plus: Wales claims to employment and support allowance (ESA), is shown in the following table: Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for Number of appeals heard on fit for work decisions in the initial functional assessment for new claims to ESA by local authority and Work and Pensions how many staff were employed in appeal outcome: 1 June 2011 to 31 May 2012 job centres in Wales as of 1 April (a) 2011, (b) 2012 Appeal outcome and (c) 2013. [171238] Initial decision Local authority overturned Initial decision upheld Mike Penning: As at 31 March for the three years in question, the numbers of staff who were employed in Bradford 100 400 jobcentres in Wales were as follows: Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 100. Number 2. The latest data available is to 31 May 2012. This is due to a reporting lag of approximately 14 months which is needed to process As at 31 March each year: thedataandtoenablethebulkofappealstobeheardbyHer Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS). 2011 2,045 3. Data is updated quarterly. The next intended release date is 22 2012 1,942 October 2013. 2013 1,823 Source: Department for Work and Pensions benefit administration dataset. The information requested for appeals heard on fit Jobseeker’s Allowance for work decisions in the functional assessment for repeat claims to ESA is not readily available and could Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for be provided only at disproportionate cost. Work and Pensions with reference to the contribution Food Banks by the Minister of State for Employment of 12 February 2013, Fourth Delegated Legislation Committee, column 19, what sanctions notifications will be in writing; in Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for what proportion of cases that undertaking has been Work and Pensions pursuant to the oral answer of the adhered to; and whether his Department plans to review Prime Minister of 11 September 2013, Official Report, that policy. [171120] column 975, what definitions his Department uses of referring and signposting. [171118] Esther McVey: All sanctions notifications should be in writing and there are no current plans to review this Esther McVey: DWP is only a signposting body that policy. No statistical information on the number of does not get involved in any decision to award a food issue of such notifications is kept. parcel. The act of signposting to any local organisation including foodbanks is not a formal referral or endorsement on the part of the DWP. The operation of foodbanks is Motability: Newport (Gwent) not the responsibility of this Department. Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for Housing Benefit Work and Pensions how many people in Newport East constituency have a Motability vehicle. [171185] Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what definition of significantly adapted Mike Penning: Information on how many people in properties is used to calculate discretionary housing Newport East constituency have a Motability vehicle is payments. [171561] not held by the Department. As an independent charity, Motability is responsible for collating its own management Steve Webb: Local authorities have not been provided information and they may be able to answer your question. with a definition of significantly adapted accommodation Questions about Motability can be sent to: Declan as we do not want to limit the scope where help would O’Mahony, Director, Motability, Warwick House, Roydon be considered. Road, Harlow, Essex CM19 5PX. 863W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 864W

Universal Credit This is the right approach for such a large and complex change, and the plans we announced in July mean we Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for will be testing universal credit in each region across the Work and Pensions how his Department plans to country. Claimants will also start to benefit from using calculate entitlement to universal credit for claimants the claimant commitment which will help bring about a with PAYE annual status. [171119] cultural shift in taking a more active approach to searching for work. Esther McVey: A universal credit award is adjusted The roll-out of the claimant commitment for new by any earnings received in a claimant’s monthly assessment claims to jobseekers’ allowance started on 14 October. period. Therefore, where all earnings are paid annually, We will set out more details on our development plan they will be taken into account in that one assessment later in the autumn. period. If the earnings are more than the claimant’s universal credit award, he or she will lose entitlement to universal credit. The claimant can reclaim universal credit in the following assessment period and any unspent WOMEN AND EQUALITIES earnings will be classed as personal capital and may effect entitlement to universal credit. Where no earnings Equality Act 2010 (Specific Duties) Regulations 2011 are received and the claimant has work-related requirements, he or she may be required to look for paid employment. Mr Raab: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities However, if the claimant is analogous to a sole trader, what recent estimate she has made of the total cost to DWP will investigate the nature of the business and public bodies of implementing the Equality Act 2010 whether the claimant should be treated as self-employed. (Specific Duties) Regulations 2011. [171260] If treated as self-employed, the claimant will have an assumed level of earnings, the Minimum Income Floor, Mrs Grant: On 27 June 2011, the Government published applied to the award and any PAYE earnings would be an impact assessment detailing the estimated costs of taken into account against the particular assessment implementing the Equality Act 2010 (Specific Duties) period they were paid. Regulations 2011 in England. This estimated costs to DWP is looking into the feasibility of introducing a the public sector as a one-off ’familiarisation’ cost of carry forward of earnings in the future. between £7 million and £9 million and annual recurring costs between £21 million and £26 million. Vetting The Government has recently conducted a review of the public sector equality duty and found little evidence of the costs or benefits and that a further review should Mr Woodward: To ask the Secretary of State for be carried out in three years. Work and Pensions (1) what assessments his Department has made of the cost of a DBS check; and what assessment he has made of the effects of the cost of a DBS check on the ability of unemployed people to move into work; CABINET OFFICE [171032] (2) what assistance his Department offers towards David Kelly the cost of a Disclosure and Barring Service check for unemployed people moving into work. [171179] Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what recent assessment she has made of the Esther McVey: The cost of a Disclosure and Barring circumstances surrounding the death of Dr David Service check is determined by the Home Office. The Kelly in 2003. [170259] Department has made no assessment of the effects of the costs of a Disclosure and Barring Service check on Mr Maude: There has been no recent assessment into the ability of unemployed people to move into work. the circumstances surrounding Dr David Kelly’s death. The Department’s view is that employers in the first instance should meet the costs of these checks; however, Security where they refuse to do so, Jobcentre Plus officials can, in exceptional circumstances, decide to reimburse the Michael Dugher: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet employer for the cost of the check. Office how many departmental identity cards or passes have been reported lost or stolen by staff in his Welfare State: Reform Department since May 2010. [168604]

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Maude: The Department takes seriously any losses Work and Pensions with reference to paragraph 7, page or thefts of ID security passes, All such incidents, which 34 of 21st Century Welfare, Cm 7913, what recent staff must report immediately, are fully investigated. assessment he has made of the scale of project required Passes are deactivated when reported lost or stolen, to to make the 17 changes necessary to deliver a more ensure our access control measures will not allow the integrated system; and if he will make a statement. passes to be used. [171117] Since May 2010 the Cabinet Office has recorded 139 passes as lost and 27 recorded as stolen. 55 of these Esther McVey: The Department is committed to rolling were successfully recovered. The annual rate of losses is out universal credit in a careful and controlled way. no higher than in years before the last general election. 865W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 866W

Select Committee Reports Brandon Lewis: The Department for Communities and Local Government does not offset its energy-related Mr Jenkin: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office carbon emissions. whether it remains the policy of the Government to However, the Department has, since 2009-10, saved respond to reports from Select Committees of the the tax payer approximately £4.7 million per year through House within two months. [170665] reduced energy consumption, lowering its operational greenhouse gas emissions by 41% or 9,798 tonnes. Mr Maude: Guidance to Departments and officials on responding to Select Committee reports can be found in the .document ’Guidance on departmental Council Tax evidence and response to select committees’, available at: Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for www.gov.uk Communities and Local Government how many I wrote to my hon. Friend on 21 June regarding the people were in arrears with their council tax in April delay in responding to a PASC report. We are currently (a) 2012 and (b) 2013. [171258] undertaking a review of business appointments and, as I explained, we intend to respond to the Committee’s Brandon Lewis: The Department does not collect recommendations once that is complete. data on the number of people who are in arrears with their council tax. For information on the value of Youth Services uncollected council tax, I refer the right hon. Member to my answer of 10 October 2013, Official Report, Ian Austin: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office columns 391-93W. (1) what estimate he has made of total Government I would observe, as I have pointed out to the right funding for youth services in each of the last five years; hon. Member in correspondence, the most recent official [170981] statistics published on 26 June show that in-year council (2) what steps he is taking to provide support to tax arrears improved slightly in 2012-13 as a proportion youth services. [170977] of total council tax collectable in the year, by 0.03 percentage points. Collection rates in England increased Mr Hurd: The Cabinet Office took over responsibility in the last year from 97.3%, to 97.4%. for youth policy from the Department of Education in For the current financial year, council tax collection July 2013. is on the up. Official statistics published on 21 August Since then I have commissioned a review of the show that £6.9 billion of council tax was collected in quality and quantity of existing youth provision. This England over the first three months of 2013-14, This is will be carried out in collaboration with sector partners 3.5% more than in the same period of the previous year, and will be complete by the end of the year. at a time when average Band D council tax rose by just 0.8%. It is also a larger percentage increase in the The findings of this review will be used to inform amount collected than in the same quarter from 2011-12 future policy on youth services and will build on existing to 2012-13. Cabinet Office initiatives including to: support youth services that are looking to spin-out into public service mutuals. These local authorities can access funded Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for specialist support and expert advice from the Cabinet Office’s Communities and Local Government how many people £10 million Mutuals Support Programme. who are (a) paying council tax for the first time and (b) Several projects have already successfully applied for paying higher council tax as a result of the changes to funded support, with many more in the pipeline: council tax benefit introduced in April 2013 have received a court summons for non-payment to date. [171259] increase the scale of National Citizen Service, which offers young people the opportunity to take part in structured activities outside of school that provide them with key skills for work Brandon Lewis: The Department for Communities and life; and and Local Government does not collect figures on the invest in the Campaign for Youth Social Action which aims to number of people who have been issued with court increase the quality and quantity of youth social action opportunities summonses by local authorities for non-payment of for young people aged between 10 and 20. council tax. I would observe that according to figures collated by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, 3.0 million summons were issued for unpaid council tax COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT across England in 2009-10; their most recent figures for 2011-12 published in August 2013 show that this figure Carbon Emissions has fallen slightly. I also refer the right hon. Member to the written David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for statement of 18 June 2013, Official Report, column 27WS, Communities and Local Government how much has which outlines how the coalition Government has tackled been spent by his Department on offsetting costs for unreasonable and aggressive collection practices and energy-related carbon dioxide in the last year for which which notes how the last Government broke its promises figures are available. [169504] on taking action. 867W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 868W

Council Tax Reduction Schemes The Government is currently considering how best to implement an exemption for self build in respect of Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Section 106 agreements (such as those for affordable Communities and Local Government what data arising housing contributions) and will make a further from the changes to council tax benefit he has decided announcement in due course. to collect to carry out the review of its effect as required by section 9 of the Local Government Finance Act Local Government Finance 2012. [171239] Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Brandon Lewis: We are currently working with local Communities and Local Government what steps his authorities to identify appropriate data sources for the Department is taking to ensure that local authorities review. do not overspend budgets. [170911]

Housing Brandon Lewis: Councils are under a statutory duty to balance their budgets. They have a duty under section Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for 28 of the Local Government Act 2003 to consider what Communities and Local Government how many people action to take to remedy a budget overspend. in (a) Ribble Valley constituency, (b) Lancashire and (c) the UK are housed in (i) local authority or housing Satellite Broadcasting association-owned property, (ii) privately rented property, (iii) shared ownership property and (iv) privately owned Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for property. [170895] Communities and Local Government what subscriptions his Department has for premium satellite television Kris Hopkins: The Department publishes estimates channels; and what the cost of each such subscription each year on the number of households by tenure in was in the most recent year for which figures are available. England, through its annual English Housing Survey, [168640] which can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-housing- Brandon Lewis: The Department for Communities survey-2011-to-2012-household-report and Local Government does not currently subscribe to In 2011-12. 3.8 million households in England were any premium satellite television channels. in the social rented sector (local authority or housing By contrast, the Department under the last association); 3.8 million were in the private rented sector; Administration spent £5,594 on premium Sky channels, and 14.4 million were owner occupied; this includes which included television for the (now closed) Darts around 125,000 shared ownership properties. The Bar. Department does not produce parliamentary constituency or county estimates for England or United Kingdom figures. Social Rented Housing The Office for National Statistics publishes estimates from the 2011 Census for the number of households by Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for tenure for local authority districts and counties in England Communities and Local Government how much his and Wales, which are available online in table KS402EW Department spent on new social housing for rent in (a) at: the City of York and (b) England in 2011-12; and how much it expects to spend for such purposes in each year http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/census/2011/ index.html of the Comprehensive Spending Review period. [163878] Estimates from the 2011 Census for the number of households by tenure for parliamentary constituencies Kris Hopkins: The Department’s spending, through in England and Wales can be found here: the Homes and Communities Agency’s Affordable Homes http://data.parliament.uk/resources/constituencystatistics/ Programme, on new affordable housing for rent in the census2011/Census2011-ConstituencyProfile.xlsx city of York council’s area was £2.3 million in 2011-12 These figures are only available for England and and £4 million in 2012-13. This includes spending on Wales. new build and on acquisition and refurbishment. The Department’s capital spending on housing, including Housing: Taxation new affordable housing in England in 2011-12, 2012-13 and 2013-14 is set out in its published Estimates at: John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Communities and Local Government if he will issue attachment_data/file/205103/ guidance to local authorities on exemptions from the Main_parliamentary_supply_estimates_2011-12.pdf (a) community infrastructure levy and (b) affordable https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ housing levy for self-builders. [170596] attachment_data/file/205092/ Main_parliamentary_supply_estimates_2012-13.pdf Nick Boles: Yes. Revised guidance on the community https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ infrastructure levy will be published alongside the enactment attachment_data/file/197752/ of legislation amending the levy to make it a fairer and dclg_mainsupplyestimates_201314.pdf more transparent system, including exempting self build Spending in 2014-15 will be set out in future published developments from the levy. Estimates. 869W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 870W

£19.5 billion of public and private investment in has made of the number of families with children living affordable homes will deliver 170,000 homes in the four in temporary accommodation in (a) Coventry, (b) the years to 2015 and up to a further 30,000 will be delivered West Midlands and (c) England in each of the last by March 2017, supported by a share of the £10 billion three years. [170885] Housing Guarantees and grant of £450 million. The spending round announced a further £3.3 billion Kris Hopkins [holding answer 15 October 2013]: The of Government money, which, together with receipts information requested for Coventry and England is set from right to buy sales, will help lever up to £20 billion out in the following table. of private finance on top. This will provide a further As outlined in the written ministerial statement of 18 165,000 homes in the three years from 2015 to 2018. September 2012, Official Report, column 32WS, my Department no longer publishes statistics by Government Temporary Accommodation office region. Local authority figures from which regional estimates for the former West Midlands Government Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for office region can be calculated are also included in the Communities and Local Government what estimate he table.

Households with children in temporary accommodation1 Number as at 30 June 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013

Local authorities in the former West Midlands Government Office Region Birmingham 382 567 515 615 715 Bromsgrove 8 6 15 17 21 Cannock Chase 0 3 1 2 2 Coventry 12 20 22 43 31 Dudley 27 22 32 32 30 East Staffordshire 2 1 3 1 5 Herefordshire, County of 73 50 36 58 41 Lichfield 12 10 12 17 7 Malvern Hills 1 5 2 0 1 Newcastle-under-Lyme 0 0 1 0 2 North Warwickshire 0 0 1 1 2 Nuneaton and Bedworth 4 9 6 15 11 Redditch 7 4 9 13 11 Rugby 0 9 5 5 17 Sandwell 30 13 18 15 16 Shropshire 51 43 50 49 25 Solihull 15 22 27 27 31 South Staffordshire 13 10 11 3 2 Stafford 4 2 1 2 1 Staffordshire Moorlands 9 11 15 14 3 Stoke-on-Trent 5 1 7 5 8 Stratford-on-Avon 16 19 14 13 19 Tamworth 5 6 5 4 9 Telford and Wrekin 51 44 41 42 32 Walsall 22 20 14 22 33 Warwick 11 6 10 15 14 Wolverhampton 55 47 45 43 39 Worcester5150383037 Wychavon 9 14 21 18 5 Wyre Forest 15 18 14 4 3

England2 45,940 37,940 35,950 39,490 43,090 1 Includes expectant mothers with no other dependent children. 2 England totals are rounded to the nearest 10, and published in DCLG Live Table 775. Source: Quarterly PIE returns from local authorities.

We want families with children to be able to live in Families will no longer need to be placed in temporary secure and settled homes. That is why we have taken accommodation while they wait for social housing to action to help local authorities move families quickly become available. into settled accommodation. From 9 November 2012, local authorities have had a new power under the Localism At the same time, we have also put in place extra Act to use good quality private rented sector protection for the most vulnerable. The Homelessness accommodation to end the main homelessness duty. (Suitability of Accommodation) (England) Order 2012 871W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 872W helps prevent the use of temporary accommodation to deliver the best possible service to those that are at which is a long distance from the family’s previous risk of homelessness. This includes a commitment not home and community. to use Bed and Breakfast as a form of temporary For households already in temporary accommodation accommodation for families. the local authority has a duty (under section 193 of the Housing Act) to find that family settled accommodation. Town and Country Planning Act 1990 Local authorities should continue to work with these households to discuss alternative housing options as Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for they become available. Communities and Local Government how many We are investing £470 million in homelessness prevention Article 25 directions have been issued under the Town over four years of the spending review period—funding and Country Act 1990 in each month of the last year going to local authorities and the voluntary sector. We for which figures are available. [170824] are continuing to support local authorities to raise their game with an additional £1.7 million for a new Gold Nick Boles: The information requested is not available Standard support and training scheme across the country centrally. 9MC Ministerial Corrections17 OCTOBER 2013 Ministerial Corrections 10MC

The principles and processes for materiel accounting Ministerial Correction are contained within the Defence Logistic Support Chain Manual (Volume 4) which is published on the internet Thursday 17 October 2013 at the following link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jsp-886-volume- 04-materiel-accounting The LCS Bicester and LCS Donnington materiel and DEFENCE financial accounts are audited by the Defence Internal Audit Team and the National Audit Office. Lost Property In November 2012 Defence Equipment and Support Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence began implementing the Inventory Strategic Plan to (1) how many items were lost at (a) COD Donnington control inventory within the future Defence supply and (b) COD Bicester since September 2012; and if he chain. This programme of work will drive the practice of high quality inventory management throughout the will make a statement; [167285] Department that will deliver and maintain optimised (2) what the value of items lost at (a) COD Donnington inventory across Defence. and (b) COD Bicester was since September 2012; and if he will make a statement; [167286] The correct answer should have been: (3) if he will publish details of the auditing processes for (a) COD Donnington and (b) COD Bicester; and Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) Annual if he will make a statement. [167289] Report and Accounts includes reportable materiel losses. [Official Report, 5 September 2013, Vol. 567, c. 483-84W.] Culpable losses include the result of proven or suspected Letter of correction from Philip Dunne: fraud, theft, arson or sabotage, or any other deliberate An error has been identified in the written answer act including repairable damage caused maliciously to given to the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) on buildings, stores or other equipment. 5 September 2013. Non-culpable losses include the result of accidental The full answer given was as follows: damage or unavoidable and/or unforeseen circumstances. Non-culpable losses can also occur where the loss of Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) Annual materiel could be expected in the normal course of Report and Accounts includes reportable materiel losses. MOD business, e.g. inventory or equipment damaged Culpable losses include the result of proven or suspected or destroyed by enemy fire or due to authorised tests or fraud, theft, arson or sabotage, or any other deliberate practice firings. However, unless there is evidence of act including repairable damage caused maliciously to culpability, losses in these circumstances are not reportable buildings, stores or other equipment. in the Annual Report and Accounts. Non-culpable losses include the result of accidental The total value of stock issued from Logistic damage or unavoidable and/or unforeseen circumstances. Commodities and Services (LCS) Bicester and LCS Non-culpable losses can also occur where the loss of Donnington for the period 1 October 2012 to 30 June materiel could be expected in the normal course of 2013 was £3.8 billion. The number and value of reportable MOD business, e.g. inventory or equipment damaged materiel losses for the same period is contained in the or destroyed by enemy fire or due to authorised tests or following tables: practice firings. However, unless there is evidence of culpability, losses in these circumstances are not reportable Number of instances of loss in the Annual Report and Accounts. LCS Bicester LCS Donnington The total value of stock issued from Logistic Commodities and Services (LCS) Bicester and LCS Lost on site 2 10 Donnington for the period 1 October 2012 to 30 June Lost in transit 320 909 2013 was £3.8 billion. The number and value of reportable Notes: materiel losses for the same period is contained in the 1. A single incidence may involve the loss of more than one item. following tables: 2. 30 June 2013 is the end of the last full quarterly accounting period. Number of instances of loss Value of items lost LCS Bicester LCS Donnington £000 LCS Bicester LCS Donnington Lost on site 2 12 Lost in transit 390 1,058 Lost on site 5 9 Notes: Lost in transit 485 1,551 1. A single incidence may involve the loss of more than one item. Note: 2. 30 June 2013 is the end of the last full quarterly accounting period. The figures are gross and do not include any potential future recovery Value of items lost of lost items. £000 LCS Bicester LCS Donnington The principles and processes for materiel accounting are contained within the Defence Logistic Support Chain Lost on site 5 20 Manual (Volume 4) which is published on the internet Lost in transit 606 1,883 at the following link: Note: The figures are gross and do not include any potential future recovery https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jsp-886-volume- of lost items. 04-materiel-accounting 11MC Ministerial Corrections17 OCTOBER 2013 Ministerial Corrections 12MC

The LCS Bicester and LCS Donnington materiel and inventory within the future Defence supply chain. This financial accounts are audited by the Defence Internal programme of work will drive the practice of high Audit Team and the National Audit Office. quality inventory management throughout the Department In November 2012 Defence Equipment and Support that will deliver and maintain optimised inventory across began implementing the Inventory Strategic Plan to control Defence. ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 17 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 865 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued Carbon Reduction Targets ...... 877 Fuel Poverty...... 879 Energy Bills...... 865 Nuclear Power...... 871 Energy Efficiency ...... 868 Renewable Energy...... 874 Energy Support (Northumberland)...... 878 Topical Questions ...... 880 EU Anti-dumping Tariffs...... 879 UK Energy Market...... 872 European Energy Markets ...... 875 Wind Energy...... 876 Exploratory Drilling (Balcombe, West Sussex)...... 873 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Thursday 17 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 63WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 65WS Low Pay Commission: National Minimum Wage .. 63WS “Adapting To Change: UK policy towards the Arctic” ...... 65WS EDUCATION...... 63WS EU-Ukraine Association Agreement...... 66WS Child Poverty Commission (Annual Report)...... 64WS Contingency Liability...... 63WS TRANSPORT ...... 67WS EU Transport Council ...... 67WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 64WS Agricultural and Fisheries Council ...... 64WS TREASURY ...... 63WS Bovine TB...... 64WS Tax Policy Consultation and Draft Legislation ...... 63WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 17 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 852W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued Adoption: Self-employed ...... 852W Direct Selling ...... 851W Business: Greater Manchester...... 852W Centre on Migration Policy and Society...... 853W DEFENCE...... 833W Employee Ownership ...... 853W Armed Forces: Discounts...... 833W External Trade ...... 854W Armed Forces: Sexual Offences...... 833W Green Investment Bank ...... 854W Billing ...... 835W Royal Mail ...... 854W Data Protection...... 835W Sri Lanka ...... 855W Defence: Scotland ...... 835W Students: Loans ...... 855W Military Exercises ...... 835W Vocational Training...... 857W RAF Akrotiri...... 837W Recruitment ...... 837W CABINET OFFICE...... 864W Redundancy...... 837W David Kelly...... 864W Reserve Forces ...... 838W Security...... 864W Territorial Army: Wales ...... 838W Select Committee Reports...... 865W Youth Services...... 865W EDUCATION...... 839W Anti-Slavery Day...... 839W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 865W Disciplinary Proceedings...... 839W Carbon Emissions...... 865W Education Funding Agency ...... 839W Council Tax ...... 866W Free Schools...... 840W Council Tax Reduction Schemes ...... 867W GCSE ...... 840W Housing ...... 867W Higher Education: South Yorkshire ...... 841W Housing: Taxation ...... 867W Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 841W Local Government Finance ...... 868W Munro Review ...... 842W Satellite Broadcasting...... 868W Parents: Education...... 842W Social Rented Housing...... 868W Pre-school Education...... 843W Temporary Accommodation ...... 869W Public Appointments ...... 844W Town and Country Planning Act 1990 ...... 872W Pupil Exclusions: Greater Manchester ...... 844W Pupils: Bullying...... 847W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 851W Pupils: Coastal Areas...... 849W Billing ...... 851W Schools: Bible ...... 849W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION—continued INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued Schools: Finance...... 849W Coltan...... 832W The Guardian...... 850W Developing Countries: Taxation ...... 832W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 814W JUSTICE...... 858W Electric Cables ...... 814W Prisoners: British Nationals Abroad ...... 858W Electricity: Prices ...... 815W Prisoners: Mental Capacity...... 859W Energy: Billing ...... 815W Prisoners: Mental Illness...... 859W Energy Company Obligation...... 815W Prisoners: Repatriation ...... 860W Energy: Scotland...... 816W Energy: Wales ...... 816W PRIME MINISTER...... 801W Fuel Poverty...... 816W Canada ...... 801W Scotland...... 816W Ministers: Official Secrets ...... 801W Sri Lanka ...... 801W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 812W TRANSPORT ...... 802W Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 812W Billing ...... 802W Compost ...... 813W Blue Badge Scheme...... 802W Rivers...... 813W First Great Western...... 802W Rural Areas: Financial Services...... 814W Great Western Railway Line...... 803W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 805W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 825W Maritime and Coastguard Agency ...... 806W Electronic Surveillance...... 825W Peel Holdings...... 806W Iran...... 825W Public Transport ...... 806W Kieron Bryan ...... 826W Railways: Nottingham ...... 806W Religious Freedom ...... 826W Railways: Tickets ...... 807W Russia ...... 827W Shipping: Training ...... 807W Sri Lanka ...... 827W Speed Limits ...... 807W Sudan...... 831W Tamils ...... 831W TREASURY ...... 817W Co-operative Bank ...... 817W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 817W HEALTH...... 807W Prudential Regulation Authority...... 818W Abortion ...... 807W Public Sector: Pay ...... 818W Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation ...... 808W Public Sector: Pensions ...... 818W Alcoholic Drinks and Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 808W The Guardian...... 819W Ambulance Services: North West...... 809W Cancer: Staffordshire ...... 809W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 864W Dementia ...... 809W Equality Act 2010 (Specific Duties) Regulations ICT ...... 810W 2011 ...... 864W NHS England ...... 811W Public Health England...... 811W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 860W The Guardian...... 811W Annual Reports...... 860W Cold Weather Payments ...... 860W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 819W Employment and Support Allowance: Bradford .... 861W Electronic Surveillance...... 825W Food Banks...... 861W EU Justice and Home Affairs...... 819W Housing Benefit ...... 861W HM Inspectorate of Constabulary ...... 823W Housing Benefit: Scotland ...... 862W Ministers...... 824W Jobcentre Plus: Wales...... 862W Police: Training ...... 824W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 862W Young Offenders ...... 824W Motability: Newport (Gwent) ...... 862W Universal Credit...... 863W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 832W Vetting ...... 863W Burma...... 832W Welfare State: Reform ...... 863W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Thursday 17 October 2013

Col. No. DEFENCE...... 9MC Lost Property...... 9MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 24 October 2013

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PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £4. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £600. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 568 Thursday No. 57 17 October 2013

CONTENTS

Thursday 17 October 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 865] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change

Al-Madinah Free School [Col. 887] Answer to urgent question—(Mr Laws)

Business of the House [Col. 896] Statement—(Tom Brake)

Afghanistan [Col. 911] Statement—(Justine Greening)

Backbench Business Defence Reforms [Col. 923] Motion—(Mr Brown)—on a Division, agreed to Deaf Children and Young People [Col. 964] Motion—(Sir Malcolm Bruce)—agreed to

Daniel Pelka [Col. 992] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Coastguard (Maritime Incident Response Group) [Col. 315WH] Food Contamination [Col. 338WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 63WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 801W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 9MC]