WSIRN Episode 217: Making up for Lost Time in Your Reading Life Hosted by Anne Bogel, with Guest Pamela Hernandez

WSIRN Episode 217: Making up for lost time in your reading life Hosted by Anne Bogel, with guest Pamela Hernandez

[00:00:00] ANNE: Did you have a difficult time thinking about a book that wasn't for you?

PAMELA: I ... No, but ... [BOTH LAUGH]

[CHEERFUL INTRO MUSIC]

ANNE: Hey readers. I’m Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next? Episode 217.

Welcome to the show that’s dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader: What should I read next?

We don’t get bossy on this show: What we WILL do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we’ll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

And today we're kicking off a brand new year of reading together. Readers, before the holidays, I published my latest installment of a reading challenge I’ve been sharing for quite a few years now. And while it’s not tied to the calendar year, I know many people are rethinking their reading right now. If you need a boost to read better, not just more in 2020, head to modernmrsdarcy.com/challenge and sign up to challenge yourself to do just that. You’ll get a list of challenge categories, downloads to help keep you on track, and tips and recommendations to help you along the way. Find the Modern Mrs Darcy reading challenge at modernmrsdarcy.com/challenge.

Readers, I also want you to know that we just launched our pre-order campaign for Don’t Overthink It! That’s my new book coming out this winter. Here’s what that means: you can go to my blog, modernmrsdarcy.com and get the lowdown on the free bonuses you get when you order a copy of my next book. Don’t Overthink It comes out March 3, but when you preorder now it gives the book a huge boost, because of the current publishing landscape, and you get the closer-to-instant gratification of enjoying some of those bonuses very, very soon. We're

1 sending them out to everybody who signs up and claims their bonuses in mid-January. Plus those who preorder will be the first ones we invite to be part of the Don’t Overthink It launch team and that is happening soon.

So, go to my blog modernmrsdarcy.com for all the info on those bonuses. As always, we’ll also put this information in the show notes for you: find the notes for this episode, plus a written transcript if that helps you out, at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/217. That’s whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/217. Those show notes include all today’s relevant links plus a full list of the books we talk about today. That's whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/217.

Readers, at the start of every new year, there’s a buzz of goal-setting and self-improvement in the air, and around here we believe that when you improve your reading life, it does good things for the rest of your life. Today’s guest Pamela Hernandez has found creative ways to pull together reading goals and fitness goals in her personal training business. Pamela loves to read about women who mirror herself and her clients — seasoned female characters who live life on their terms, strive to make the best of their life circumstances, and thrive. Today I’m recommending 3 books that fit the bill, plus a self-help book that hopefully won’t leave Pamela shaking her head in disappointment. Let’s get to it!

Pamela, welcome to the show.

[00:03:10] PAMELA: Oh, thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

ANNE: Pamela, you're an avid reader, obviously. But also you are a personal trainer and I am so curious about how what we do in the rest of our lives impact our reading lives. Now what I'm saying all the time on the blog and the podcast is when you improve your reading life, when you get more out of that, you can't help but get more out of the rest of your life as well because of the way books zone right in on the things that matter most to us. But you get to see this happen from the other direction. You get to see how fitness and physical pursuits affect the rest of our lives.

PAMELA: I do and I love my job. I've been doing this for about ten years. You know, one of the things they tell you when you start a business is be yourself, you know, there's a million other personal trainers out there, but be you. So I was sorta unapologetically the book person. Like if you're going to be in my gym, we're going to talk about books, too.

ANNE: Oh, you're the book trainer!

PAMELA: We have a book club at the gym, and we recently opened a little library, so we actually have a little library in the gym. In talking about books, I always feel like there's, there's the fun of just talking about books, but there's that crossover between our lives and not even

2 necessarily like in self-help books, like there's other things that we can find in the books that we're reading. So it's part fun and distraction and part teaching tool.

[00:04:32] ANNE: I really don't know the answer to this, but do you feel like you can help your clients more effectively if you feel like you know them as people?

PAMELA: 100%.

ANNE: Because I'm thinking if you're able to talk books with someone who you're new to each other, that's such a not awkward, but effective way to get to know who they are.

PAMELA: Right, you're just - you’re just building a relationship and what I do is ... It's very personal. I don't think people sometimes always understand how personal of a relationship it can be. And so when we can start off in the beginning, obviously we've talked about health history and goals, but what are you reading? Because we have a book club and here's what the book club is reading. Have you read this? And it starts to develop that relationship so they trust me and we become like a family.

ANNE: I love that. So when we were just chit-chatting a moment ago, it occured to me like oh how ironic, I'm talking to you, a personal trainer, and this is a running day for me. And I on purpose skipped it because I had a lot to do this morning, and then I sat down and realized, oh, this is so funny. Like I'm talking to someone who does fitness for a living and I totally skated out on mine this morning. You must hear some version of that all the time that people feel like a little apologetic and maybe even ashamed of where they are in their physical journey, I don't even know the language that you prefer to use to talk about what you do.

PAMELA: I talk about it in terms of a fitness journey. It's never perfect, so it's really not about the destination. And yes, I get into awkward situations all the time [LAUGHS] where I have to convince people that I'm not judging them. [ANNE LAUGHS] Everybody wants to explain what they're currently eating. Like I go to parties and we're having a conversation, and they're chowing down on something really decadent and you know, you obviously get into that conversation, and what do you do? [ANNE LAUGHS] And then I tell them, and then they ... You know, the guilt look, and I’m like no, no, I'm going to go get one of those in just a minute. I just haven't made it there yet. [ANNE LAUGHS] There's a time and a place for everything, and I'm not judging you at all. There's a really delicious brownie over there. I'm probably going to have one too. I just haven't gotten there yet.

ANNE: That really resonates because when people find out what I do, they often instantly become apologetic in the same way. Oh, I feel really bad. I don't read as much as I should. I'm so embarrassed to tell you that I haven't read, you know, fill in the blank classic, and I'm always telling them, no, no, no, like it is okay. I'm not judging you. I don't have like standards, I'm not going through some checklist of what kind of reader you should be. But on the other hand,

3 reading journey is not language I use, but I totally could, Pamela. It's tricky because people will come to me and say I want to read more books. And I think, well, quantity isn't necessarily the goal, but if it's a goal that's important to you, then let's talk about how we can do that together. It's difficult to communicate especially if other people are listening in that I want to be here as a reading resource, but I don't want to impose my standards on what you want to experience in your own reading life. And I imagine there's a whole host of similar issues for you as someone who shepherds people on their fitness journeys.

[00:07:37] PAMELA: And there is. You know, sometimes people get a little, they come in and they talk to me and they find out that they, you know, I'm a vegetarian and then they're like, oh, but I like meat. Well that's okay. You can eat meat. That's fine. Or I like this particular kind of exercise. Well that's great. You don't have to give up zumba. I just want to be like you said, that resource. I want to help you fill in the gaps. A lot of the times it's more about some accountability or just a missing piece and I never want people to feel like they have to do it my way because my way only works for me. They need to find their way, so I really see myself as somebody who's really more of a guide and a coach than a here is a one and true way because there isn't one true way.

ANNE: That's true. And yet I'm thinking that on the flip side, sometimes people come to me, picking for a fight it seems, and say, I think the classics are stupid and pintless and that people should stop reading them immediately. And then I think hold on. Like, I agree that we want to figure out what works for you in your reading life. And on the other hand, let's maybe help you see this thing with new eyes and perhaps get just a sliver of appreciation of what it is, even if it's never going to be your favorite thing.

PAMELA: That's so true. I mean, people come in to see me with all sorts of experiences with exercise, with diets, with weight loss, and I always ask two things. Okay, let's just - let's just have a beginninger's mind. Let's just kinda forget or try to forget [LAUGHS] what happened in the past. And then particularly with food, I try to refer to myself as the sort of diet agnostic. If someone asks me a question about you know, the latest diet that's been all over the Internet, my first question is generally so what interests you about that? And from there, we can typically find sorta maybe a more moderate approach or something that fits them because I can really understand what it is that they really want, and why that thing is appealing to them. So there's a lot of listening and being open-minded on my end to try to figure out again, how I can - how can I help you instead of saying being dogmatic. That's what I try not to be is dogmatic. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: When people come to you, what are the things that they are often looking for? I'm sure you must hear some of the same requests for help over and over again.

PAMELA: Yeah, I mean, motivation and accountability. Those are usually the first two things out of people's mouths, and as you dig deeper, I mean, it's that desire to be healthy and it always seems to be linked with happy. And so I try to focus on both. Let's make this an experience

4 where you're having a good time, let's make this an experience where you enjoy coming into the gym; that you enjoy what you're eating. So it's a healthy life, but it's a happy life. And those are the things that I really hear the most, and so that's why I try to be very holistic and again, we do fun things like the book club and cooking classes and self-care Saturday or just, you know, whatever needs to find that juncture of healthy and happy.

[00:10:35] ANNE: I'd love to hear more about how you became the trainer who's also a reader. Has it always been that way? Or was that something you kinda found your way in to your profession?

PAMELA: I've always, always been a reader. That is always been me for as long as I can remember [LAUGHS] But when I first started my business, I stopped reading for awhile. Except for like business books and like health-related books because I was starting the business as a side hustle, so I was working a what I call my paycheck job. I was working for that 40-some hours a week, and trying to start the business, and there simply just didn't feel like there was time. And after I was able to start working as a personal trainer full time and got the business established, there's always of course something always to be doing when you run your own business, but I started to think, I’m like, what happened to my reading life? Like where did my books go?

And I remember the first time I said to myself, I said you know what, you've done your to-do list for today. You're going to take 30 minutes and go read a book for fun. And it was a struggle because I felt - I felt guilty because I knew that I could get a headstart on the next day's list or there was probably something around the house that needed to be done, but I was realizing I had separated myself from something that had always been so important and started having to work my way back in. Almost like someone's working their way back in to an exercise routine [BOTH LAUGH] working my way back in to saying yeah, reading, it's part of who I am. And from there, now I feel like I'm maybe six years, making up for lost time, and just reading everything I can get my hands on. So that's why I feel like we're always talking about books because I've attracted this great group of clients who are mostly readers and so we're always sharing. I just feel like I'm trying to catch up for all the books that I missed.

ANNE: Pamela, what are you reading right now in your book club?

PAMELA: So in book club, we're actually reading two books. Prairie Fires which is about Laura Ingalls WIlder, and we're also going to read or reading Little House in the Big Woods to go along with that. So just kinda this cozy sorta, I don't know, feels like a winter book to me.

ANNE: I see what you mean. Everybody's gathered around the fire hunkered down and-

PAMELA: Yeah.

ANNE: So, just your typical gym reads, I hear what you're saying.

5 [00:12:49] PAMELA: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

ANNE: And then what do you do at your book club?

PAMELA: Well I try to be creative because my other passion, and it goes very well with books, is tea. So I try to somehow match the beverage, the tea choice, to go along with the book.

ANNE: Oh, that's so fun.

PAMELA: I'm still trying to figure out how that looks for [LAUGHS] this particular selection. For example, we read Tangerine and I made Moroccan mint tea for everybody.

ANNE: Oh, of course you did. Yeah, that sounds amazing.

PAMELA: It was so much fun and I have this great kitchen space at the gym, and so we kinda sit in the kitchen and we were drinking our Moroccan mint tea and I bought from the farmer's market, we have a vendor who, she makes like Turkish delight and all of these dried fruits and candies, and so I had these figs and dried kiwi and so we just sat and drank our mint tea and ate dried figs and talked about Tangerine.

ANNE: That sounds delightful. The way you run your business, do your clients like, would they bump into each other in the course of working out? Or do they all come in to their individual slots and never see each other?

PAMELA: No, we do, and that's part of the fun. We do - I do small groups, so it's not a bootcamp or anything. I mean, they're doing their individual workout, but my space is big enough where you know, two or three people can work out at the same time. So we're all talking about life and questions about food and there's a little bit more comradery there which is fun for me and I think it's more fun for them too. Again, it makes that experience a little more enjoyable than someone sorta standing over you and counting your reps and pushing, pushing, pushing.

ANNE: Yeah, and I would imagine if your clients are looking for accountability and motivation, knowing that they're showing up to see people who are becoming people that they actually know and not just, you know, that woman who's there sometimes on Tuesdays, provides that.

PAMELA: Yeah. They're friends in Facebook and they've supported each other through you know, I have a couple of clients who in the last couple of years have been diagnosed with breast cancer. The one who was diagnosed most recently, she got a lot of information from the other client who had been diagnosed I think about a year prior. They - they don't really know each other outside of that gym context. They don't come in at the same time, but again, kinda trying to built that fit family connection type of vibe with the things that we do. So, no, it ... I'm

6 just super lucky. I've surrounded myself with sorta this wonderful group of women and it's just more than that workout.

[00:15:16] ANNE: I love that. Your fit family. I like it. Can we start talking about our reading family here?

PAMELA: Absolutely.

ANNE: Because it is nice to know, I mean, whatever your pursuit is, it's nice to feel like even if you're not seeing those people every day that you are not the only one interested in this thing and striving to meet those goals, whether that's to do I don't know, 40 push-ups. I can not do like one complete beautiful push-up, Pamela. That and a pull-up. Goals. Or if that's to, you know, read 25 books this year, or all the works of a favorite author. Or I don't know, try a new format or genre. I feel like I'm always saying people often feel alone in their pursuits, but whenever it comes to anything in the reading life it is never just you. And I imagine you see that in your work every day with people in their own struggles.

PAMELA: Every day. We definitely succeed and get better in groups.

ANNE: Oh, that's such a great way to put that. So, Pamela, I would love to hear more about your individual reading life. So all those years ago when you said you know what, I haven't done this thing that I really enjoyed for a long time and you sat down with a book, what happened after that?

PAMELA: I tried to say you know what, it's okay. You work really hard. You can spend some time reading a book. [LAUGHS] There was a lot of convincing myself. I was in a book club, so I think I had just recently started the book club, so that certainly helped. 'Cause okay, I'm a big accountability person myself. If I tell somebody I'm going to show up for book club, I'm not going to be the person that hasn't read the book. So coaches need coaches, and there was my accountability partner. [ANNE LAUGHS] So that was one thing.

Then I started to also explore like how can I fit this into my day? How - where does reading make sense to me, and I started to get more into a habit of ending the day with reading. Not coming back from the gym and getting back on the computer when I ... I wasn't effective anyway. I was tired. I was done. It made so much more sense to say you know what, I'm not going to get back on the computer and start answering emails. I'm going to set some boundaries and I'm going to set time for myself. And so I do a lot of my reading at the end of the day. And then as time went on, and of course as technology catches up, audiobooks. I started reading a physical book and an audiobook at the same time, so I'm like I'm reading twice as much now. And I can fill in those gaps while I was, you know, driving from place to place or while I was cooking something. And now I'm able to read at the same time. So I've sorta been able to expand that time.

7 [00:17:48] ANNE: So that's a big change for you.

PAMELA: It is. I love audiobooks.

ANNE: We're hearing that more and more. I mean, you're part of a trend, Pamela, because audiobook listening has been up so dramatically just year over year these past five years. It's really impressive because I think it really is helping people read in ways that they couldn't read before and in times when they couldn't read before.

PAMELA: And I agree. You know, I wouldn't think of trying to read a book, like a physical book, while I was stretching after a run. Like that just doesn't make sense. But I can turn an audiobook on while I'm stretching, while I’m getting something to drink, and I can get in 15-minutes of reading.

ANNE: Well, Pamela, I can't wait to hear what you are reading and listening to these days. Are you ready to talk about your books?

PAMELA: Always.

ANNE: I like that answer.

***

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***

ANNE: Well you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately and we will talk about what you may enjoy reading next. So how did you choose these favorites and not favorites?

[00:20:10] PAMELA: Oh, that was so hard. [ANNE LAUGHS] It's so hard.

ANNE: It is.

PAMELA: I - I ... I'm like, how in the world ... And I do this every time I listen to the podcast, I'm like, how in the world do people narrow this down to three books? So I really had to think about books that sorta symbolized a lot of the things that I just love about reading. They - they're definitely books that I tell everybody that you have to read this. But really tried to say well okay, these are the representatives of my reading life and my life stands right now.

ANNE: Okay, so what did you pick? What's book one?

PAMELA: All right. Book one - book one was actually pretty easy, and that's She's Come Undone by Wally Lamb. This is one of those books that I - I feel like if you read it too soon in your life, you're going to miss out on some stuff. I read this for the first time ... I was in my 20s. It was not long after it came out, and I worked - I worked at a bookstore. I was so lucky I got to work at bookstores both in high school and college. And it was an Oprah book, and I was reading the Oprah books. I loved it. I mean, it really spoke to me, but then I read it again about I can't remember if it was two or three years ago, so after I turned 40, I read it again, and it was like a whole other book. It was like a whole other message, especially because I had lived twenty, you know, twenty some years that Delores resonated in me in a whole other way.

ANNE: Mm-hmm.

PAMELA: It's such a great story of becoming. I love stories that take you through a person's life and their transformation and what they learned. And I identified with the main character ... She - she grew up in a very challenging family situation and kinda without a father really being present. And I grew up without my father being present. My parents divorced when I was very

9 young. And sorta kinda what happens in your life when you don't always have that strong family support and how you have to sorta build that family for yourself.

[00:22:01] ANNE: Yeah.

PAMELA: I think that's one of the things I maybe didn't know I loved about it at the time when I first read it, but then when I read it again, I was like oh. I see what's happening here.

ANNE: Mm-hmm. [LAUGHS] Something that I read recently about Wally Lamb was that he is not for the emotionally fragile.

PAMELA: No. But I love all of his books.

ANNE: That says a lot about your reading life.

PAMELA: I think Wally Lamb writes women characters really well, which is very unusual for a male author in my opinion. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: I see what you mean, and I'm flipping back through my history with Wally Lamb. I haven't read everything, but I really enjoyed much of what I have read by him. I found She's Come Undone really, really emotionally wrenching to read, and also at the same time, I loved I Know This Much Is True, which I think is also emotionally wrenching, but in a slightly different way...

PAMELA: Yes.

ANNE: … That was easier, but when I think through those characters like I just love the way that he wrote it was Della in that book. Loved her, and I don't think I ever stopped to think like hey, how'd you do this, Wally?

PAMELA: I know. And the funny thing is too, have you read the Christmas book, Wishin’ and Hopin’?

ANNE: No. But I'm so curious because Wally Lamb does not scream Christmas books to me.

PAMELA: I read it every year at Christmas. It was the first book I brought to the gym book club 'cause it's really short and it's really sweet and it's about ... His name's Felix, and he is ... I can't remember if he's in the fifth or sixth grade. And it's the months leading up to the Christmas pageant at the Catholic school Felix goes to. And it's set, I think, in the '60s. It is hilarious. It is so not an emotional like tug, it is just fun read and so I do ... Every year, that's my - that’s my Christmas read.

ANNE: [LAUGHS] Fun Wally Lamb read are words I didn't think would go together.

10 [00:23:53] PAMELA: No.

ANNE: Okay. Well I'm going to read that. Maybe next, thank you for the recommendation. So intrigued. Pamela, what did you choose for your second book?

PAMELA: I chose 11/22/63 by Stephen King. It's funny ‘cause I don't consider myself like a big Stephen King reader, but when I look at books that maybe I've read more than once or that I had like oh you have - again, that you have to read this recommendation, they seem to be Stephen King books, like 11/22/63 or The Stand. I love historical fiction, and so this and that time period around the events leading up to the Kennedary assassination, this spin on history and the butterfly effect wrapped up with this really poignant love story and then just Stephen King is a brilliant storyteller. It is so good. And I did it on audio - I read it on audio. Amazing narrator. I was crying. I was laughing. I loved this book.

ANNE: Wow. That is high praise. Okay, so that is a serious epic, and I'm already getting the sense that you like fiction that's realistic and it's okay that it goes to hard, heavy places.

PAMELA: Yeah. I am okay with that. I would rather feel something, and the books that I tend not to enjoy are books that I don't care about these characters. [LAUGHS] I - I want to feel something for the people that I'm reading in the story, and they just take you along on this crazy journey of you know, what would you do if you had a chance to change history? And I don't want to give away too much but you know, how does love get involved in that? What would you do? I don't even think it's necessarily what people expect from Stephen King because it's not scary. It's not IT. It's not any of that. But at the same time, there's definitely a - a psychological, scary, I don't know if that's the right word to describe it or not, like-

ANNE: There's no monsters in the closet or anything.

PAMELA: No, other than human nature, which sometimes that can be the scariest monster.

ANNE: Yes. I really enjoyed this book and I'm not a horror reader, but I’ve heard so many people say that this book is deeply unsettling, even if it's not horrific.

PAMELA: Yes. And that's a good way to put it. It really sorta shakes your foundation about somethings, and again just because we can, should we? And that's a question I think applies in a lot of instances in our world right now just because we can do it, should we do it?

ANNE: This is also a really long book, Pamela.

PAMELA: Oh, yes. That's hard for me. That's one of the things that I would like to see different about my reading life is I tend to get caught up in these big, sweeping, like doorstop books. I don't mind to do that on occasion, but when I have a stack of books waiting and the library holds

11 come in and here's this 800-page book, and I'm trying to read it usually in these like 45-minute, hour chunks, that's a hard thing to do. So that's definitely something I need to figure out like how do I - how do I balance that because I do tend to get caught up in these kinda big arcs and big stories.

[00:27:03] ANNE: So if we have to narrow it down somewhere, go short.

PAMELA: Go short.

ANNE: We'll see where it goes. Tell me your third book and we'll see what I can make fit.

PAMELA: Okay the third book was really hard, but again I picked one that I ... This is sorta representative in more ways than one. I chose How The Lights Get In by Louise Penny, and this is actually #9 in The Inspector Gamache series. I knew I had to pick a Louise Penny book because these are the books that when they come out, I will get them and they will sit on the shelf. I will buy them so they're not a library checkout. I will buy them and I will wait until I know I have a weekend where I'm either going to be home alone or I don't have any major projects that I'm working on that I can get lost in this book.

ANNE: I admire your restraint. [PAMELA LAUGHS] I mean, not necessarily for Louise Penny and not that I didn't read the new book in three days, but just for anything that you're really excited to read. I like hearing how people plan and wait. So this one - this one was worth it.

PAMELA: This one was worth it. I am such a delayed gratification person. Like let me get all the stuff done that's the work that I don't necessarily want to do or really, like let me get the work done so I can get to the reward.

ANNE: Ooh.

PAMELA: I'm all about that. So #9 just is all the things that I think make this series so wonderful. I love the setting, and it's winter, even though I'm not much of a winter person for some reason, winter in Quebec just sounds lovely. [BOTH LAUGH] I don't know why that is. There's so much ... Again, about that family that you make and the loyalty and the trust and someone who is that father figure. It's just all the stuff ... The ending where she wraps up ... You can tell she's been patiently over these nine books getting to this climatic ending, and you can just see every step of the way how methodical she was to get here and pulled it off in a way that I just did not see coming. It was so worth the pay off and so worth the wait. So this is ... I love all the books in that series, but this was the one that just ... I put it down and I was like, did that just really happen? Like did she really just write that? [ANNE LAUGHS] It was so good.

ANNE: That's a great way to feel.

12 [00:29:20] PAMELA: Yes. I love - I love feeling that way when I finish a book.

ANNE: Oh, and I especially love that in a series you love, you could really pinpoint one book that encapsulates what you love about the series.

PAMELA: It wasn't easy. [ANNE LAUGHS] It was hard.

ANNE: Nothing worth doing is, Pamela.

PAMELA: Yeah. I knew she had to be on the list, but I don't know how I’m going to figure it out. ANd then I'm like oh, remember that ending?

ANNE: Count me among the many who's like I don't really love the cold, but I definitely want to go to Winter Festival in Quebec and Louise Penny is why. Pamela, did you have a difficult time thinking about a book that wasn't for you?

PAMELA: I …. No. But …. [BOTH LAUGH]

ANNE: Let's hear it.

PAMELA: I understand that I'm not alone when I picked Girl, Wash Your Face.

ANNE: We have seen this one on a lot of submissions lately, but I don't know if anyone's actually discussed it on the podcast. Of course, ringing in my ears right now is your commentary about how you are diet agnostic. Not necessarily writing prescriptions, but tell me more.

PAMELA: Okay. So the funny thing about Girl, Wash Your Face is I had at least two clients come to me and say you need to read this book. Some of the things she says reminds me of things that you say in the gym. And I'm like okay, and I do read a lot of personal development and self-help books. I mean, those are things that I do read for myself. And so I'm like okay, I'll get this on audio and I'll listen to it. You know, I get a lot of book recommendations from my clients, and 90% of the time, like, nail it. We're on the same page.

So, I get the book and I start listening and I shake my head every so often, I'm like yeah, okay, I get what you're saying. Yeah. And then the - the way she says it kinda starts to rub me the wrong way. And I've had a couple of other people, we've used the term maybe condescending. I looked at the way she was saying things about creating a community for all women and then the way she was going about that, I was you know, no, this isn't a community for all women. And I felt like she was coming from this place of privilege, but not really understanding how much privilege she had because of kinda where I am in my personal world, I just feel really sensitive to that. My evolution of ... I grew up poor. I'm a Latina in a very White community. Lots of different things in my life and I was like yeah, this - this isn't for me. Like there were things that

13 she was saying from a message that I'm like yeah, that does actually sound like something I would say, but it was the place that she was coming from with that that really just rubbed me wrong. I'm like nope, not for me. Not it.

[00:32:03] ANNE: When it comes to self-help books that have not been for you, if they're condescending, or just seem to be unaware of the challenges that people might face, that makes it difficult or impossible to implement what seems so easy to the author that is not for you. But you do read a lot of self-help and you do read a lot of inspirational, so let's talk about what works in those books because I think as someone in your position you get to see a lot of people put this kind of advice into practice in a real tangible way. Much more so than most of us get to see and experience in our daily lives.

PAMELA: That is so true. I mean, I do read a lot of self-help, maybe personal development, and I kinda like Brene Brown's approach to we're all just doing the best that we can. Like, we're all kinda working with some of the same struggles and we're all working with the tools that we have. So, I've read Daring Greatly I think maybe three or four times at this point. Things that are really about saying, you know what, yeah, here you are. Here's the place that you are in your world. You want to do better? Great. Here's how we can do that. Here's some inspiration. Here's some motivation.

I love Marie Forleo's new book, Everything is Figureoutable. Like I believe that 100%. It may not necessarily be figureoutable the way you want it to go, but there's always an action or step you can take within your world. I like to read things about behavior because that's a big part of my job. So books like Atomic Habits. Those types of things or Gretchen Rubin of course. I'm a total upholder. [BOTH LAUGH] And I love her books. I often make my clients ... Well I don't make them. I don't make them do anything, but I ask them to take the quiz even though now I"m getting to a point where I can almost guess what they are. Because that helps me as a coach a great deal to kinda understand their innate personality. And so, you know, I know my upholders. I'm like, you're going to be pretty easy. Rebels, this ... Well I don't know what to do with the rebels. I'm just here when you need me. [ANNE LAUGHS] So a lot of those type of books are very valuable for me personally as well as how I can help my clients be better, but I'm a huge Brene Brown, Pema Chodron, I've read a lot of her books ... So things that sorta lend maybe a little bit more towards understanding our behavior in nature and how we can work with that.

ANNE: So you're describing books that really embrace a spirit of experimentation. Well let's try something. Well let's see what works. Well have you done this? Well maybe if you did that. Well a small next step could look like. And so on and so on, instead of taking a template and just pressing it down over your life and saying here's your next checkbox. Get to it.

PAMELA: Yes. Exactly. It's very much we're all different people coming from different places.

14 [00:34:53] ANNE: So Pamela, even though it can feel like our reading life is different from the rest of our lives sometimes, I really think that we are still ourselves and that books speak to all aspects of our lives and I'm curious to hear, do you notice themes in fiction that maybe make you not appreciate the book, but for the same reason?

PAMELA: Mm. That's a good question.

ANNE: 'Cause I'm thinking of a couple novels that I've read that do seem to have this plucky heroine, picks herself up by the bootstraps, revolutionizes her life that does have the same kind of mindset even though it's written in a different genre. Except I don't see that genre represented in your favorites. It doesn't mean that you never pick it up, but you seem to like fiction that's a little more character-driven, a little more realistic, a little more literary than the kind of stories that I'm thinking of, typically lend themselves to.

PAMELA: Yeah, no, and I see what you're saying. I think if it's again that sorta realness in a novel that I do ... I like strong women characters. Particularly as I get older, I like to see you know, women who are in midlife, kinda living on their own terms and doing their thing. One of the books that was shortlisted for my [BOTH LAUGH] just wasn't for me was Persuasion.

ANNE: Oh, mm-hmm.

PAMELA: For I think for along that same theme in a way. I'm just like why? I don't ... [LAUGHS] Like I don't get this. So I think that again, I do like strong, kinda get it done, living life on their terms kinda characters, female characters for sure. I think it just depends on that level of introspection. Maybe that's the way. Like is it a thoughtful journey?

ANNE: That's a really good insight.

PAMELA: Is it going somewhere? Are they even starting in one place and learning and changing as that journey goes on? That I'm totally open to, but if it's sorta like you said tone-deaf throughout, I'm like mm, I don't know if that's for me.

ANNE: So you want to see people in any genre making choices, taking action, not just rolling with the tides.

PAMELA: Yeah, that's it.

ANNE: So in your practice, or in your personal life, are there any like best loved, most recommended, personal growth kind of titles that we can take with us into the new year?

PAMELA: So one of the books that I've been reading lately that I do tell everybody, every woman although I think it'd work well for men too, is called Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the

15 Stress Cycle by Emily and Amelia Nagoski. It is the best book [ANNE LAUGHS] that I have read about ... The first part is about the physiological effects of stress, which I know doesn't sound super interesting, but they're very, they're very knowledge, the two sisters are, and they are very good writers and they make it very engaging to make us really understand how much stress affects every aspect of our physical, emotional, spiritual health. Then to really talk about what it means to handle the stress cycle, not necessarily try to, well here's all you need to do to get rid of those stressors, but here's what you need to do to take care of yourself. And then they talk about this systemic stress, so it is very intersectional and acknowledging how things outside of our control in our immediate life affect us.

[00:38:19] ANNE: And this is one of those books for me that I still think about pretty much every time I go running because of the metaphor they use about how when you're running against a wind, you notice it in your face and you can tell it's impeding you. But going back to condescension and what we were saying about Girl, Wash Your Face, if the winds blowing behind you and helping you along, unless it's really, really gusty, you don't notice. You're getting helped, but you don't even know it and I just think about that every time I put on my shoes and head out. So I'm really glad that you chose to highlight it today.

PAMELA: It has become one of my favorite books. Again, these are things as a personal trainer and a health coach, I've known but it's so accessible. They're really good writers and they really put in a place that someone who this is not their life's work can understand and put it into practice.

ANNE: Well this is going to be fun.

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ANNE: Pamela, you love She's Come Undone by Wally Lamb; How The Light Gets In, book #9 in Louise Penny's Gamache series; and 11/22/63 by Stephen King. Not for you is Girl, Wash Your Face by Rachel Hollis. You're looking for something with a little more introspection. You're interested in reading about thoughtful journeys, and also, I know that you don't want long books, but the thing a long book can do, trickier for a shorter book to do just because of space reasons, is with a long book is you can really dig in to a character and see them in many different situations, from many different angles. You can feel like you have a real, 3-dimensional, multifaceted view on them. Whether we're talking about nonfiction or fiction, you're looking for a book that at least aspires to do the same for the characters and situations you're reading about.

Lately, you've been reading Burnout by Emily and Amelia Nagoski and also The Good House on audio by Ann Leary. Okay, and we're looking for shorter but still character-driven books, not thousand page sweeping ones as much as you like those, and books about strong women who are getting it done, living life on their terms. How does that sound?

[00:41:38] PAMELA: That sounds right.

ANNE: So, can we start with a 400 pager? Is that okay?

PAMELA: Absolutely.

ANNE: Well you said that you loved historical fiction. It's a debut. It's got a really fresh, interesting voice. This is not a story of older women. This is a story of a young girl. It's by John Larison. It's called Whiskey When We're Dry.

PAMELA: I have not heard of it.

17 [00:42:00] ANNE: Here's what I like about this for you. I read the book and only found out after that Oprah.com had called it Mulan meets Deadwood. I don't know if you know enough about either of those things for that to be interesting to you.

PAMELA: Oh, I do, and now I'm intrigued. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: So this is sat in 1885 in rural America. This is a story about a girl put it in an impossible situation who has to do what she can to survive. So, she's orphaned. She's alone. She's living in the middle of nowhere. Her father and brother have taught her to be good with a gun, and they did it so that she can hunt, but she ends up needing to do it to defend herself. Her name is Jessilyn. Or Jess. She's a 17-year-old girl on her own in a time when it was terribly dangerous. So she decides to become a boy. She cuts off her hair. She binds her chest. She takes to her horse, and she is off to find her brother, who is a refugee because he's been accused of a terrible crime. She [LAUGHS] also ends up in several precarious situations working for the wrong people, making friends with the wrong crowd, of course really quickly she ends up trope of the genre almost, but when you need to see, she ends up killing someone very early, which changes how she sees herself, what she wanted for herself, what she ever imagine her life would be like. But along the way, she meets incredible people of course. She finds love in a guy she completely did not expect, and she is getting it done the best way she can, and I think this could be really engaging, interesting reading for you in a genre, setting, and form your favorites indicate that you really enjoy. How does that sound?

PAMELA: That sounds like something I would definitely get lost in on a plane. I like that.

ANNE: Okay, that is Whiskey When We're Dry by John Larison. I think it's out in paperback. It first came out summer of last year.

PAMELA: Even better. It's so hard to take a hardback on a trip. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: Yes, and some readers are very particular. Like they don't even want to read it until they can get a soft paperback in their hands. And then something that I just found out in the past couple years is that some many books clubs only read on paperback. It's just more accessible because the cost is about half as much for a lot of books.

PAMELA: One of the books we recently did for book club was Daisy Jones and The Six, and it was really hard for some people to get their hands on the book because it had just came out and the library was, you know, the list was really long and so some people were like, well, I really want to come but I haven't had a chance to read it, so I can totally get that notion of staying with paperback.

18 [00:44:29] ANNE: Well you will get your wish on that one. So, when I think about shorter stories that are still character-driven, Jacqueline Woodson comes to mind. The specific book I'm thinking of is her brand new release Red At The Bone.

PAMELA: I am familiar with her work. I have not had a chance to get my hands on this book.

ANNE: Another Brooklyn was also her most recent release before this one, and I know we've talked about it on the podcast before.

PAMELA: The only one I've read is Brown Girl Dreaming.

ANNE: Oh, and I love that, especially on audio.

PAMELA: Me too.

ANNE: This is an adult novel this time. The good news and the bad news is that this is fantastic on audio and it is really quite short for a full-length novel. The audiobook comes in under four hours. So the bad news is if you're looking to make the most of your credit, like cost per page, you're way better off with 11/22/63, but I think your satisfaction factor, both for how good the book is in this format and for the feeling of accomplishment around finishing a book, that's really high. So I'll let individual listeners do the calculus on this, but let me tell you more about the audio version.

This story is told from multiple points of view and there's a full cast that narrates it, including Jacqueline Woodson herself. So Bahni Turpin is one of my favorite audiobook narrators, who I thought of as the primary voice, but maybe just because we hear her voice first in the story. There's a character read by Peter Francis James, Quincy Tyler Bernstine, Shanya Small, the cast they have for this audio production is phenomenal. So what happens in this story, a young girl who's still in high school becomes pregnant, it's an unexpected pregnancy, and it brings together two families of different socioeconomic status, different parts of Manhattan, different hopes and dreams for their families and for these two young teens. And what you see in this book is how every individual family member is affected by this pregnancy.

Melody is still a young teen when she becomes pregnant, so of course that affects her boyfriend of the time, and it affects his parents and of course it affects her parents. And then she goes off to college. She goes to Oberlin, and has to decide what will she tell people. I won't say any more. She's still deciding what she wants from her life and at the same time, she has this child who affects things, and she wrestles with how much do I want this child to affet things and how much will being a mother impact my identity. If you're looking for a thoughtful journey, they're like casting back and reflecting on what happened back then, so you immediately get that wistful feel and the sense of longing and what might have been-ness.

19 [00:47:21] PAMELA: I love how that sounds. And I totally hear what you're saying about the audible credit [LAUGHS] so luckily we have access to a couple of really great apps for audiobooks from my local library, so this is definitely one that I"m going to see if it's available or put on hold if it's not 'cause that sounds wonderful.

ANNE: Well I hope you enjoy it. I got to throw in a self-help pick. Have you read Women Rowing North by Mary Pipher?

PAMELA: No, I haven't, but I remember reading Reviving Ophelia. Again, I think that’s one of those books that I probably should actually go back and read now 'cause I read it in college.

ANNE: Yes, I was just thinking I appreciated it at the time, but I was so young. I was a baby when I read it the first time and I think I'd have a completely different perspective now.

PAMELA: Me, too, and I want to go back. It's so hard to go back just rereading books when there's so many new ones.

ANNE: I love rereading and I hear you on that too because I always [LAUGHS] there's so much to read.

PAMELA: There's so much, but I can't remember where I heard blurb about this book sorta in passing, and so I'm really interested because I know she's looking at women a whole other stage of their lives than Reviving Ophelia, but I'm not quite sure what the premise is, so tell me more.

ANNE: Okay, so this is Women Rowing North, and the subtitle is navigating life's currents and flourishing as we age. So we were saying that as we've gotten older, we would have a different perspective on these books. Well Mary Pipher is growing older as well and her interest have likewise shifted. So she's a clinical psychologist, so she's writing firmly from the expert point of view, and what she's really looking at is in today's world and she's specifically looking at America, although much of what she's saying will extrapolate as she's gotten older, she couldn't help but notice that life gets harder in many ways because of the way you see yourself, because of your abilities, because of losses that you accumulate just by virtue of just being on the planet over time. She wanted to explore how we can age well because ideally, as you age, and you learn, and you grow and you become hopefully wiser and more compassionate, you become more fully yourself and that's what she's really exploring, like how can you become a whole person and really develop an authentic self because there are so many ways to go wrong, both from inner pressures and cultural pressures.

The metaphor she uses is kinda fun. She explores what she calls travel skills that women need in middle age, specifically late middle age and old age. A lot of the book reminded me of Parker Palmer's book On The Brink of Everything, which he's writing as someone who is now 80 and

20 very old and has learned a lot and is looking back. Those could be really nice companion reads for any listener who's interested. But for that kind of thoughtful introspection that still does equip you with skills and insights that you can apply in your practical life. She could be an interesting pick. That's Women Rowing North.

[00:50:23] PAMELA: I like that pick a lot. That really feels like the kind of place for myself personally as well as the people that I work with, like these are the kind of books we would get into discussions where we almost forget to do the workout because we’d hit on that point. [ANNE LAUGHS] Sorta understanding of things have just gotten real, like this is hard. That totally feels in my wheelhouse.

ANNE: Something I found interesting is that we had several podcasts guests who've said hey, I'm looking for books featuring older, more seasoned female protagonists and there aren't as many as it feels like there should be and in her book, Pipher says exactly the same thing. Not just about books, but about advertising and things we see in the movies, they don't accurately reflect the presence and needs and interests and circumstances of women who are older.

PAMELA: And that is 100% true. I feel like of my industry. I guess having a conversation, one of my clients, you know she walks into her local community center and they're like, yeah, we've got the silver sneakers program, and she's like silver sneakers, what? [LAUGHS] You know, like wait a second, it's either you're sorta one end or the other and as we're sorta in that midlife place, not really being spoken to.

ANNE: All right. The final book I have in mind for you is one that I don't think is as well known as it deserves to be. It's by Crystal Wilkinson. It's called The Birds of Opulence.

PAMELA: I've never heard of it.

ANNE: Okay. Well let's go. So this is a short book. I'm holding it in my hand right now. It's 199 pages and yet it covers a whole lot of ground. This covers four generations of women in interestingly, since you just talked about The Good House by Ann Leary, in the Goode-Brown family, hyphenated. There are very few men in the book - you see two, but you see a whole lot of women. They live in the small town of Opulence, Kentucky, the author is Kentuckian. This is a book that explores female friendships, family secrets. You said that you like Lisa See and her mother-daughter relationships.

PAMELA: Yes.

ANNE: This book has got those and every woman in this book and every generation is dealing with some kind of trauma. You also see mental illness. You see coming-of-age as these young girls experimenting with their new young womanhood in ways that are not [LAUGHS] necessarily healthy. Oh, if Wally Lamb is not for the emotionally fragile, neither is Crystal

21 Wilkinson, but the reason is because it feels so real and realistic and you care about these characters and you don't want to see any harm come to them. But that is part of the story. You see how every woman here is dealing with her own form of trauma.

So I wanted to tell you about the cover of this book because it's really beautiful. This book shows a beautiful, multi-colored bird. It looks like an Opulent bird to me, I didn't realize it was symbolic. This bird is a sankofa and this is an African word, the literal translation is is not taboo to fetch what is at risk of being left behind. You can't see the bird's feet on the cover, but a sankofa is a bird with its feet planted facing firmly forward, but its head is looking back. So the idea is that even as we move forward, we can't forget what happened in the past, what we learned then, our history with ourselves and our people. Knowing what you've said about how you want to see thoughtful journeys, an author who’s writing deliberately with that stance for this four generational family story I think could be a really good fit for you.

[00:54:00] PAMELA: I love how that sounds.

ANNE: When you're thinking about where to place this book in the spectrum, I heard Crystal and David Joy, whose Hillbilly Noir is something that he was joking that his genre has kinda taken on, he and Crystal ... They're pals. They know each other. They write similar stuff, but if you go into a bookstore, her work is shelved in African-American fiction and his work is shelved in either fiction or Appallachian fiction, but he was like, hello, we are writing the same thing. And I thought that was really interesting and will never forget about that when I'm reading Crystal Wilkinson or David Joy. But for listeners who are like I'm intrigued, tell me more, where does this fit into the literary universe as I understand it? I thought that tidbit from their talk together might be interesting.

So Pamela, we talked about Whiskey When We're Dry by John Larison; Red At The Bone by Jacqueline Woodson; and The Birds of Opulence by Crystal Wilkinson. I do not know how that is on audio. Of those three books, what do you think you'll read next?

PAMELA: That's a hard pick. I'm thinking about that right now [BOTH LAUGH] I'm like okay, which one can I probably get my hands on? Probably Red At The Bone. Some of that might be serendipity whether that gets to be read first or not, it depends on how long the hold queue is, but that's the one I'm definitely going to go seek out first.

ANNE: Well I hope you enjoy it. And I can't wait to hear what you think. Pamela, thank you so much for talking books with me today. It has been a pleasure.

PAMELA: Thank you. I love talking books. Thank you so much.

[CHEERFUL OUTRO MUSIC]

22 [00:55:33] ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Pamela, and I’d love to hear what YOU think she should read next. That page is at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/217 and it’s where you’ll find the full list of titles we talked about today. Follow Pamela on Instagram @thrivefit, and hear more from her on her podcast Fit in 417, where book segments are part of the regular rotation.

Subscribe to What Should I Read Next now so you don’t miss next week’s episode in Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and more. We will see you next week!

If you’re on twitter, let me know there @AnneBogel. That is Anne with an E, B as in books -O-G-E-L. Tag us on instagram to share what YOU are reading. You can find me there at annebogel and at whatshouldireadnext. Our newsletter subscribers are the first to know all the What Should I Read Next news and happenings like news about my upcoming book tour; if you’re not on the list, visit whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter to sign up for our free weekly delivery.

If you enjoy this podcast please pop over to Apple Podcasts and give us a rating or review. Even two sentences about what this show means to you would mean the world to us. Thank you in advance from all of us here at WSIRN HQ.

Thanks to the people who make this show happen! What Should I Read Next is produced by Brenna Frederick, with sound design by Kellen Pechacek.

Readers, that’s it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening.

And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, “ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading.” Happy reading, everyone.