Tuesday Volume 570 5 November 2013 No. 70

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 5 November 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 99 5 NOVEMBER 2013 100

out very clearly how they will help households—by House of Commons reviewing green levies, by encouraging switching, which I am pleased to see the Leader of the Opposition has Tuesday 5 November 2013 taken up, and by increasing competition. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I, too, The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock welcome the Minister to her post. She will know that one of the energy bills that my rural constituents have to struggle with is for petrol. Will she tell us whether the PRAYERS Office for Budget Responsibility has done an assessment of how much families are saving by our avoidance of the 13p fuel hike planned by the Labour party? [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Nicky Morgan: I thank my hon. Friend for her question. BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS The OBR does an assessment of all taxes and their impact on the economy. The policies that this Government LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR are pursuing in recognition of the pressures on household LONDON (NO.2)BILL [LORDS] budgets mean that filling up the average car is costing families £7 less at the moment, and by the end of this Third Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday Parliament it will cost them £10 less. 12 November (Standing Order No. 20). Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Does HERTFORDSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (FILMING ON the Minister accept that the best answer to this question HIGHWAYS)BILL [LORDS] is to freeze energy prices? Surely that is the answer. Second Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday 12 November (Standing Order No. 20). Nicky Morgan: I thank the hon. Gentleman very much indeed for his question, but the energy price freeze suggested by the Leader of the Opposition is actually an energy price con. It has been made very Oral Answers to Questions clear that the prices will go up beforehand and up afterwards, and the Leader of the Opposition has made it clear that if wholesale prices go up, he will have to stop the freeze. That is a price con; it is not sustainable; TREASURY we are fixing the problem. Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD): Will the Chancellor The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— of the Exchequer join me in congratulating the Eastleigh Energy Prices Liberal Democrat borough council on the large part it has played in bringing the local unemployment rate down below 1,000? 1. Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): What assessment the Office for Budget Responsibility has Mr Speaker: Whatever the worthiness of the efforts made of the effects on the economy of recent changes of the council to which the hon. Gentleman refers, in energy prices. [900893] unfortunately it has absolutely nothing whatever to do with Question 1. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Nicky Morgan): The Office for Budget Responsibility has not published Fuel Duty any assessment of the effects of the recent energy price increases on the economy. The OBR’s last published 2. Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) forecast, “Economic and fiscal outlook” was issued in (Con): What assessment he has made of the effect of March 2013, and an updated forecast will be provided freezing fuel duty on the price of petrol. [900894] alongside the autumn statement. The Government are The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): committed to doing all we can to keep energy bills down Thanks to this Government’s action, pump prices are to support hard-working families. 13p a litre lower than they would have been under the previous Government’s plans. Provided we can find the Huw Irranca-Davies: I welcome the hon. Lady to her savings to pay for it, my intention is to freeze fuel duty post. Is she aware that last year wholesale energy prices for the rest of this Parliament. rose by 1.7%, but energy bills by 9.1%? Is it not time that the Government stopped defending the big six Paul Maynard: I thank my right hon. Friend for that energy companies and actually called for a freeze on reply. The cost of fuel is of great concern to many of my prices while we reset the energy market? constituents. If he can freeze the price of fuel for the remainder of this Parliament, how much cheaper will Nicky Morgan: It is very interesting to hear what the petrol be, come the next election? hon. Gentleman says, but the first thing he needs to do is explain to his constituents why he voted for the Mr Osborne: If we are able to freeze petrol prices for decarbonisation target, which is going to add £125 to the rest of this Parliament, the price will 20p a litre energy bills. Secondly, it was the last Labour Government lower than it would have been if we had stuck with the who created the big six. We started off with 20; they left plans that the shadow Chancellor advocated at the last us with the big six. Thirdly, this Government have set general election. That would mean, as my hon. Friend 101 Oral Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 102 the Economic Secretary was just reminding us, a saving Mr Speaker: Order. That has nothing to do with the of over £10 every time people filled up their average car. responsibilities of the Chancellor. [Interruption.] Order! That is what this Government are doing; by fixing the In the name of respect for parliamentary process and public finances, we are able to help people. the traditions of the House, I ask Ministers not to behave in that way. We deserve better. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): When the Chancellor became Chancellor, unleaded petrol was £1.19 a litre. Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I shall Can he tell us how much it is today? return to the actual question of duties. Has the Chancellor found the £750 million that is needed to pay for the Mr Osborne: It depends, of course, where you buy it. freeze? At the party conferences, he also promised to The last price I saw at a petrol station was around £1.35, spend a further £700 million on school meals, a further but it would have been 20p higher if we had stuck with £300 million on his Work programme, and a further the last Government’s plans—the hon. Gentleman voted £600 million on a marriage allowance. That is £2.3 billion for them—in the last Labour Budget. That is the truth, of promises. Let us be clear about this. Is the Chancellor and it is because we are fixing the public finances and going to raise taxes or cut services to pay for those fixing the economy that we can avoid these disastrous promises, or is he planning simply to borrow even Labour tax rises. more? Which is it?

Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): The freeze on Mr Osborne: What a question from a Labour Front duty makes a crucial contribution to improving business Bench team that wants to spend £27 billion more, and competitiveness, and will have been welcomed by all our to borrow every penny of it. If this is the hon. Gentleman’s constituents throughout the country. Will the Chancellor debut performance as shadow Chief Secretary, I am undertake, as part of his work on the autumn statement, afraid that he will have to do a lot better. His job should to publish the Treasury’s own estimate of the full amount be to control the promises that he makes. As for our by which both motoring and energy input costs have side, we are paying for the commitments that we are been increased by climate change-related measures? making to the hard-working people of this country.

Mr Osborne: Of course, the OBR provides an assessment Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op): How? of the impact of Government policies on the economy, and I will consider my hon. Friend’s specific suggestion Mr Osborne: I will tell the right hon. Gentleman that we look into the impact of climate change policies how: by sorting out the mess that he created. on energy prices. We are currently examining the charges and levies that the last Government, among others, Chris Leslie: Despite all that hot air, it seems that added to energy bills, and seeing what we can do to roll there are still £2.3 billion of unfunded promises. Would them back in order to provide relief for customers. it not be far easier if all those promises were fully costed and funded and independently checked by the Office for Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I welcome Budget Responsibility, just to ensure that the Chancellor’s the action taken by the Government to freeze fuel sums add up? duties, but UK taxes on petrol and other fuels remain among the highest in any country in the European We have proposed that all the main political parties Union. What will the Chancellor do to remedy that should be able to submit tax and spending plans to the much-unwanted achievement? OBR ahead of the election manifestos. Surely we can all agree that—as the Chair of the Treasury Committee has suggested—an independent audit by the OBR for Mr Osborne: I looked at the plans that this Government all the main political parties would be good for the inherited, and then cut petrol duty in March 2011. We democratic process, so will the Chancellor now join us have frozen the duty ever since, and I intend to continue in a cross-party consensus on that? the freeze for the rest of the current Parliament, provided that we can find the savings to pay for it. That is the crucial point: if we do not sort out the economy, if we Mr Osborne: As to a cross-party consensus, I remember are not fixing the public finances, if we do not have an when I was speaking from the Opposition Dispatch Box economic plan, we cannot have a living standards plan. and the hon. Gentleman’s party was in government that it opposed the creation of the OBR—opposed it time and again. I believe it is important that we preserve the Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Notwithstanding the independence and integrity of this new body, which is excellent news of the fuel freeze, petrol pump prices are working well but is entrusted with the very important still under threat from hard-liners at Grangemouth. task of providing the economic forecasts for whoever is Does my right hon. Friend agree that extremism in the in government. That should be its primary purpose and pursuit of hard-pressed motorists is no virtue? the changes to the primary law that the hon. Gentleman is proposing are not very practical. Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The greatest threat to fuel supplies recently has been the Sukuk threat of industrial action from the Unite union, led by the chair of the Falkirk Labour party. We now hear the former Labour Chancellor and the former Labour Foreign 3. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Secretary saying that Labour should open its inquiry What his policy is on the issuing of Government bonds and publish what it finds, and a Labour Front Bencher in the form of sukuk; and if he will make a statement. saying that Labour does not “publish internal documents”. [900895] 103 Oral Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 104

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): Manchester airport is seeking to develop a new route to The Government want the United Kingdom to become Beijing, but one of the major obstacles is the very high the first sovereign state outside the Muslim world to level of UK APD. Will she take a careful look at new issue an Islamic bond. The Treasury is therefore working research by York Aviation, which has concluded that a on the practicalities of issuing about £200 million of time-limited exemption from APD on new long-haul sovereign sukuk as early as next year. The Government routes from regional airports would make the Manchester- see sukuk issuance as an excellent opportunity to promote Beijing route immediately viable? London as the leading centre for Islamic finance. Nicky Morgan: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for Roger Williams: As chairman of the all-party group his question. The Government will always take a look at on Islamic finance and diversity in financial markets, I the evidence. In fact, we debated APD in the House welcome the Government’s decision to issue a sukuk. It only the week before last. In October 2012, Her Majesty’s is something the group has campaigned on. I also Revenue and Customs published modelling on price congratulate the Government on their part in hosting differentials at UK airports, and it showed that even the World Islamic Economic Forum in this country, the large price changes have a relatively small impact on first time it has been held in a non-Muslim country. total passenger demand, but I am sure he will welcome What else are the Government doing to promote Islamic my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s investment in this country and sustain the Islamic banking announcement of the £800 million investment in Airport sector? City in Manchester, which will create over 16,000 jobs. The involvement of Beijing Construction Engineering Sajid Javid: I thank my hon. Friend for his continuing Group as a partner in this project is the latest in a work in promoting Islamic finance and diversity in line of new partnerships being forged between the UK financial markets. London is already a global player and China. in Islamic finance, which brings in significant investment and creates thousands of jobs. Last week I also announced Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Ind): Manchester that we are bringing together a global Islamic investment airport is second only to Heathrow in terms of airport group. This group will have the expertise to help Islamic capacity, but it is operating at under half capacity yet finance grow globally, as well as developing London as Heathrow is full. Boris Johnson talked yesterday to the one of the leading centres for Islamic finance. CBI about getting these new routes out to China and Asia, but instead of forcing people from the north-west Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): May I also welcome to fly down to London in order to fly to China, why what the Government have done? It will make this cannot we get people to come from London up to country the first anywhere in the western world to Manchester to fly out on all these new routes that we provide sharia-compliant bonds. We do not just want need? people to invest from outside, however. Although the last census showed that Brecon and Radnor had 116 Muslim people, I have 21,075 in my constituency. Nicky Morgan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his How does the Minister intend to sell those bonds to the question. As I said, we will always look at any evidence people of Leicester East? that people want to send us. We want to encourage new links between the UK and China, and the Mayor of Sajid Javid: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his London made some interesting points. The point is that warm words. Britain already has 20 banks offering we have to change prices a lot in order to change Islamic financial products. We also have 49 sukuk listed passenger behaviour, and we would need to look at that on the London stock exchange, valued at over £25 billion, further. and 25 law firms that have significant Islamic practices. We will bring all this experience together to further Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) develop Britain as an Islamic finance centre, and I am (SNP): Is the Minister aware of the success of Barcelona sure that will help his constituents with their investment airport in gaining more than 20 international routes in decisions. the past year because of a 100% APD reduction? Does she think that such a reduction would help Scotland to Air Passenger Duty regain the millions of passengers it has lost due to this Government’s APD costs? 4. Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): If he will introduce a time-limited exemption from air Nicky Morgan: The hon. Gentleman will be aware passenger duty on new long-haul routes from that there is no APD charge from airports in his uncongested airports. [900896] constituency. As he knows from our recent debate, APD makes an important contribution to the deficit reduction The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Nicky Morgan): plans; we will always keep it under review, but it is a The Government are always open to ideas that promote very important part of this Government’s attempts to regional growth. The Airports Commission will shortly rebalance the economy. publish a report on the best use of existing airport capacity in the short to medium term and the Government Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): APD will take its findings into account in our response. can also have a disproportionate effect on regional airports operating lifeline routes with modest passenger Paul Goggins: I am grateful to the Minister for her numbers, such as Newquay’s. Will the Minister factor answer, and I welcome her to her position. As part of that into the discussions she is having with colleagues the growing links between the north-west and China, on the future of APD? 105 Oral Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 106

Nicky Morgan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): Evidence shows question. We will always look at the evidence, and if that it is not just having a job, but having the right job cares to write to me, we will certainly take that into and the right level of pay that lifts someone out of account. poverty. So can the Chancellor tell us how many of those new jobs that have been created are full-time jobs, Private Sector Jobs how many do not involve zero-hours contracts and how many actually pay the living wage? 5. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): What estimate Mr Osborne: We have 1.4 million new jobs in this he has made of the number of jobs created in the economy. To take on the point about part-time work, private sector in the last 12 months; and if he will make there has also been an increase in the number of hours a statement. [900897] worked in the economy, and a lot of the recent increase in employment has come from full-time employment. 11. Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): What Let us compare that with the disastrous situation we estimate he has made of the number of jobs created in inherited from the Labour party, where unemployment the private sector in the last 12 months; and if he will was rocketing and youth unemployment was rocketing. make a statement. [R] [900904] Unemployment is now lower than it was at the general election, and many thousands—[Interruption.] That is The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): the fact. Many thousands of young people have come In the past year, employment in the private sector has off the claimant count for youth unemployment, too. increased by 380,000, more than offsetting the fall in Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) public sector employment of 104,000. For every public (Lab): Can the right hon. Gentleman now confirm that sector job lost, more than three have been created in the the number of people working part time because they private sector. That confounds the predictions of those cannot get a full-time job has risen over the past year to who thought it could never happen. 1.45 million and is now at a record high? With prices rising faster than wages for 39 of the past 40 months, is Graham Evans: Unemployment in my constituency is this not just another reason why so many working lower than it was when I became the MP. With the people are facing a cost-of-living crisis after three wasted further good news that Waitrose is creating 140 new years under this Chancellor? jobs in Northwich later this month, will my right hon. Friend the Chancellor set out how small and medium-sized Mr Osborne: The best thing we can do for anyone’s enterprises will benefit from a reduction in national cost of living is make sure that they have a job. Jobs are insurance contributions? being created under this Government, after they were destroyed by the Labour Government. I am surprised Mr Osborne: I am delighted by the news of the new that the hon. Lady did not thank us for creating an jobs being created by Waitrose in Northwich; as my economy in which, in her constituency, unemployment hon. Friend well knows, I represent part of that town. is falling, and has fallen over the past year, and the That will be good for the people who live in it, and I claimant count is falling, when it was rocketing in the hope that some of my constituents will find work there. last years of the Labour Government. The employment allowance, which we debated in this Parliament this week, is going to take £2,000 off the Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) national insurance bill of every firm, but the biggest (LD): The Chancellor made some important benefit will be felt by the smallest companies; 450,000 firms announcements last week about the future of the Royal will be taken out of employer NICs altogether. That is a Bank of Scotland. Although we are absolutely right to real boost for business, and it shows how we can help to keep pressing the bank to improve its poor lending support the recovery. record, will he also put on record the need for us to recognise the hugely important private sector jobs underpinned by RBS in Scotland and elsewhere, and Nigel Adams: Unemployment is down by almost 30% the fact that we see a strong future for that company? in my constituency since the last election. Given that Selby lost almost 2,000 jobs in 2004 in the mining Mr Osborne: I have discussed RBS and what we can industry, that is very encouraging. Given UK Coal’s do to ensure that it supports the Scottish economy with recent troubles and its callous decision to withdraw my right hon. Friend on many occasions. The plan that concessionary fuel from some ex-miners and their widows, the management has proposed, which we and the Governor what comfort can the Chancellor give to these pensioners, of the Bank of England support—it is the first time who potentially face fuel poverty this winter? since RBS collapsed in autumn 2008 that all those groups agree on a single strategy for the bank—will Mr Osborne: I know that this difficult situation has mean a strong, healthy future for RBS as a bank that been brought about by the failure of UK Coal. I supports the entire United Kingdom economy and, in congratulate my hon. Friend on leading this campaign particular, the Scottish economy. It is an important part to do something about the situation, and I know that of Scottish economic history and of Scotland’s economic my hon. Friends the Members for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) future, too. and for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) have joined him in coming Earnings/Inflation to see me about it. We are looking very carefully at the case for what we can do to help those who have had 6. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): What recent their concessionary fuel allowance taken away because assessment he has made of the rate of increase in of the failure of UK Coal. I am personally looking at (a) average earnings and (b) consumer price inflation. this case and I hope to have some good news shortly. [900898] 107 Oral Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 108

The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): Gauke): Disposable income increased last year at the The Government are committed to making the aspiration fastest pace since 2009. In March, the Office for Budget of home ownership a reality for as many people as Responsibility forecast that real household disposable possible. That is why we recently announced that income growth would accelerate each year from 2014 to participating lenders will be able to offer high loan-to-value 2017, reaching 2.3% in 2017. The best way to raise mortgages supported by their Help to Buy mortgage living standards is to stick to the Government’s economic guarantee schemes three months earlier than planned. I plan and deliver a recovery that works for all. Britain is was pleased to hear that Lloyds Banking Group recently back on the path to prosperity, the economy is growing, announced that the first such mortgage was taken out the deficit is falling and jobs are being created. by a first-time buyer in Dartford, Kent.

Julie Hilling: I do not understand how the Minister Alec Shelbrooke: Will my hon. Friend update the and the Chancellor can think that their economic policies House specifically on helping the hard-working people are a success. After three wasted and damaging years of in my constituency, where there is 77% home ownership, flatlining, working people are on average £1,500 a year which is increasing, compared with 65% across the UK? worse off. Is it not clear that his plan has failed hard-working families? Sajid Javid: Under Labour, the number of first-time buyers fell to its lowest level for 25 years, from an Mr Gauke: It has not failed the people of Bolton average of 470,000 a year in the early 2000s to around West, where unemployment has fallen by 1,800 in the 190,000 by 2008. That destroyed the hopes and aspirations past year. of many hard-working families. This Government’s two Help to Buy schemes will help thousands of hard-working Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): people to get on the housing ladder, including those in On the subject of the cost of living, does my hon. Elmet and Rothwell and those throughout the UK. Friend think it astonishing that Opposition Members do not understand that this Government have done so 16. [900910]Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): Is much to keep council taxes down? If we were still it fair for taxpayers in my constituency to subsidise a subject to their policies, the average council tax cost London property bubble that has already increased by would be £210 a year higher. 10% since the introduction of this scheme?

Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It was Sajid Javid: The hon. Lady should know, as she not this Government who doubled the rate of council would if she looked at the facts carefully, that the Help tax, it was not this Government who doubled the rate of to Buy scheme is priced on commercial terms; it is income tax for the lowest earners and it was not this designed to break even and it will not cost the taxpayer Government who increased fuel duty 12 times. anything.

Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Why Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Does does the Minister think that April 2013 was the only the Minister share my concern that, reportedly, some month on this Chancellor’s watch in which pay rose young people have actually given up saving for a deposit, faster than prices? Does he agree with the ONS that it is and will he ensure that those of us on the Government because people deferred their bonus payments to make Benches will stand with those people who have a dream the best use of the Chancellor’s millionaires’ tax cut? of home ownership to make sure it can be fulfilled? Mr Gauke: Of course, under the previous Labour Government bonuses were four times the rate they were Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Some this year. I would also ask the hon. Gentleman whether Opposition Members believe that only people who have Labour believes in reversing the 45p rate of income tax, rich parents that can help them meet some of the large because I am not sure what the answer is. deposit requirements should be able to buy their own home. That is not the policy of this Government, who support hard-working families. Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that one way of tackling rising prices is to leave people with more of Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): their own money in their pocket? Will he confirm that On the issue of fiscal steps to help people buy homes, the 50% tax cut we have given to those on the minimum the Chancellor of the Exchequer said last year that wage has done exactly that and shows that we are on the people buying homes through a company to avoid tax side of hard-working people? was unacceptable, and he would come down on it “like a ton of bricks”. Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If we Has he investigated reports that the Under-Secretary of want to help living standards, we want to be able to cut State for Transport, the hon. Member for Wimbledon taxes in a sustainable way. That is what we are managing (Stephen Hammond), has avoided tax in that way, and to do. will he come down on him like a ton of bricks?

Home Buyers Sajid Javid: I welcome the hon. Lady to the shadow Front Bench team. I look forward to debating with her. 7. Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): What The Government have already taken steps to ensure recent fiscal steps he has taken to help people who want that property buyers pay more in tax, by increasing to buy their own home. [900899] stamp duty and by dealing with purchases through 109 Oral Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 110 companies, and it would not be appropriate for any particular scheme that he is promoting and I look Minister to make a comment on any individual’s tax forward to discussing it further with him to see how we circumstances. can take it forward.

Infrastructure Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): The Chief Secretary will be aware that several conflicting 8. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): What and not very encouraging cost-benefit analyses for HS2 recent steps he has taken to increase investment in are currently in circulation. Could he not clear the air infrastructure. [900900] by commissioning and publishing a genuinely independent internal Treasury cost-benefit analysis of the project? The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): Investment in infrastructure is a key priority for this Danny Alexander: The Government have set out various Government. In June, I set out a pipeline of investment cost-benefit analyses of the project. With respect to the in specific projects, worth over £100 billion out to 2020, hon. Gentleman, what is needed in this project is not including the largest investment in our railways since more procrastination, delay and extra reports, but a the Victorian era and the biggest investment in roads commitment in all parts of the House to get on with since the 1970s. this north-south railway and allow economic growth in every part of the United Kingdom. Jason McCartney: I welcome the support of my local Labour leader of Kirklees council for the new north-south Small Businesses railway, but does my right hon. Friend agree with the leader of Manchester council, who said that politicians need to stop taking cheap shots at HS2 9. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What recent fiscal steps he has taken to support small businesses. [900901] “unless we want an increasingly disconnected North…slowly grinding to a halt”? The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Danny Alexander: I wholeheartedly agree with those Gauke): The Government are very supportive of sentiments. My hon. Friend could have added to that small businesses. We demonstrated this support again list the leader of Nottingham city council, who said that at Budget 2013 through the introduction of the new the Labour Front Bench should get off the fence on £2,000 employment allowance for small businesses and HS2. The project is needed to promote growth, and charities from April 2014.We have extended the small connectivity outside London. I agree with that, and so business rate relief from April 2013. We have increased should they. the small business research and development tax credit to 225% and the lifetime limit on entrepreneurs relief to 22. [900916]Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): £10 million. In addition, we have launched a £1 billion When the Chancellor talks about increased investment, British business bank to improve access to finance for is that what he meant to cover the £10 billion increase small and medium-sized enterprises in the UK. in the HS2 costs, which have gone up on his watch? John Howell: I congratulate my hon. Friend on the Danny Alexander: We set out in June the budget for fact that the new employment allowance will mean that HS2. We will absolutely stick to that budget. Using the 450,000 small businesses pay no national insurance excellent leadership we have brought in, with Sir David contributions at all. Is this not a positive help to small Higgins and others, we will make sure that the project is businesses such as those in my constituency as they seek delivered under budget. The hon. Gentleman should be to take on more employees? committed to the project because it will support growth all over the United Kingdom. It is the most significant Mr Gauke: I entirely agree. That £2,000 for every investment in our railways for 100 years, and his party business will feed through by helping businesses take on should support it. new staff, invest in their business or pay higher wages. It is a positive contribution, which contrasts with the 17. [900911] Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): I refer proposals that we inherited for an increase in employer’s the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ national insurance contributions. Financial Interests. I congratulate the Chancellor and his Government Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East on their investment in infrastructure in the west midlands, Cleveland) (Lab): Why since 2011 has SME investment which helped to deliver the Jaguar Land Rover plant, and lending to SMEs fallen by £30 billion? and thousands of manufacturing jobs in the process. I also draw the Minister’s attention to the A50, a key corridor in my constituency, connecting Stoke to Derby, Mr Gauke: We have had to deal with the aftermath of which involves a number of manufacturing businesses a banking crisis that occurred, in part, because of failed that could hugely benefit from road improvements and regulation set up by the previous Government. infrastructure spending. David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman is right that Does my hon. Friend agree that it is good news that, targeted infrastructure investment can unlock job creation due to the investment in small businesses, unemployment in enterprise zones, including at JLR and in various in Morecambe has fallen by 10% in the past three places around the country. I am well aware of the months? 111 Oral Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 112

Mr Gauke: That is very good news. As we are hearing Youth Unemployment from various constituencies, unemployment is falling. It is going in the right direction and it is important that we 12. Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland stick to the economic path. South) (Lab): What recent assessment he has made of the effect of fiscal policy on the level of youth Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Why should unemployment. [900906] we believe from the Minister that the present scheme for dealing with national insurance contributions will be The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): any more successful than his previous scheme, where The UK labour market is showing some signs of recovery. take-up was extremely poor and did nothing to increase Youth unemployment, excluding those in full-time jobs? education, fell over the last quarter and the number of young people claiming jobseeker’s allowance is lower Mr Gauke: I do not know whether Labour is opposing now than it was in 2010. The Government are committed the scheme. That was not the impression I got. This is a to supporting long-term unemployed young people, very simple scheme. It does not require applications or which is why we launched the Youth Contract in 2012 involve any of the complexities that we saw with two of and why we have increased the number of apprenticeships, the Labour national insurance contribution schemes. with over 1 million starts so far. We are confident that the current scheme will work. It Bridget Phillipson: The Chief Secretary refers to the has been widely supported by business groups and I Youth Contract, but does he not accept the assessment think it will make a big difference to small businesses. of the Government’s own social mobility adviser that it is having a limited impact on the In-work Benefits “appallingly high levels of youth unemployment”?

10. Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): What Danny Alexander: I certainly accept that there is a assessment he has made of the effect of his spending great deal more that we have to do to get people off benefit and into work, but if the hon. Lady looks at the plans on the cost of in-work benefits. [900903] work experience programme within the YouthContract, she will see that it is having a significant effect on the The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Nicky Morgan): number of young people getting off benefit and into The latest forecasts of benefits and tax credits are work, and at one 20th of the cost of the future jobs available online via the website of the Department for fund, which I think is good value for money. Work and Pensions. They are consistent with the Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts and reflect the George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): Is not the Government’s wider policy. single most important measure we can take to tackle youth unemployment the creation of jobs? I therefore Mr Watts: Will the Minister explain why she is allowing welcome the creation of over 1.5 million new jobs and companies that are making massive profits to pay poverty 600,000 new apprenticeships and the news that last wages that need a subsidy from the taxpayer through year this country had more small businesses than ever in-work benefits? Why does she not stop those companies before. Does that not show that we have a Government sponging off the taxpayer and adopt a Labour policy of who are seriously tackling youth unemployment, after requiring companies that can well afford it to pay a it rose for 13 years? living wage? Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend is right. In fact, Nicky Morgan: It seems that even the shadow Chancellor there are now more people in work, including more has questions about a living wage policy, saying in 2010 women, than ever before in our country’s history, and that he was not sure about it. I am surprised that the there are now more households in which someone works hon. Gentleman did not talk about the fact that in the than in any year under the previous Government. There north-west and Merseyside 306,000 people have been is a lot more to do, but that is a record to be proud of. taken out of paying income tax altogether as a result of Yorkshire Bank this Government’s policies. 13. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): What Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): It was the representations he has received on Yorkshire bank and case, was it not, that under the previous Government lending to small and medium-sized businesses. [900907] work simply did not pay because people who got into The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): work found that a huge proportion of their extra income All meetings between external organisations and Treasury and, in some cases, all their extra income was clawed Ministers are published on the Government’s website. back by the complex benefits system? Will my hon. However, it is not the Treasury’s practice to provide Friends redouble their efforts to make sure that work details of all representations Ministers receive. Lending pays? to small and medium-sized businesses is an important issue, and I can assure my hon. Friend that it receives Nicky Morgan: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. the Government’s highest attention. He is absolutely right. This Government believe that work should always pay. By 2010, nine out of 10 working David Mowat: I thank the Financial Secretary for families had been made dependent on the state by the that answer. He might be aware that two years ago the previous Government. This Government believe that owners of Yorkshire bank announced their intention to families should keep more of their hard-earned money downsize in the UK and invest more money in Asia. to spend on the things that are important to them. Since then they have aggressively reduced the size of 113 Oral Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 114 their UK loan book, despite assurances made to small The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Nicky Morgan): businesses. That has affected many businesses across This Government recognise the pressure on households, the country, including Arley Homes in my constituency, but the fall in living standards is a consequence of the which has been forced into administration, with the loss economic crisis left to us by Labour. The only way to of many jobs. Is there more we can do to make them raise living standards is to stick to our economic plans behave responsibly? and deliver a recovery that works for all. Britain has turned a corner: the economy is growing, the deficit is Sajid Javid: I know that my hon. Friend raised this falling, and jobs are being created. Last year, UK issue with my predecessor on behalf of his constituents, take-home pay was the highest in the G7 and the third and he was absolutely right to do so. The way in which a highest in the OECD. bank structures its business is a commercial decision, as I am sure he appreciates, so I am unable to comment on Steve McCabe: That is a very interesting answer. Why it. However, if a bank decides to restructure its business does the Minister think that the 15% cut in wages in a certain way, I would expect it to pay due regard to suffered by British workers over the past five years is the interests of all its customers and to treat them fairly. more than in any comparable five-year period and the Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Small businesses second biggest in the G20? in my constituency used to borrow from Yorkshire bank, and many have told me that they never missed a Nicky Morgan: It is interesting to note that the main repayment, but now the bank simply will not lend to fall in wages and salaries came in 2007-09, when growth them, despite excellent credit histories. Why are the fell from 5.7% to less than 1%. Of course the Government banks refusing to lend to small businesses that have a understand that the situation is very difficult, but I am strong history of repayment? surprised that the hon. Gentleman has not welcomed the fact that the claimant count in his constituency has Sajid Javid: May I give the hon. Gentleman some fallen by 11% under this Government, whereas it went advice on how he can help small businesses in his up by 75% under the previous Government. constituency and elsewhere? The SME appeals process that the Government set up with the banking sector has Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): been very successful, with 40% of businesses that appeal Will my hon. Friend tell the House by how much those finding it overturned. He can help to advertise that, as on low and middle incomes are going to be better off the Government will be doing shortly to banks. because of this Government’s decision to raise the Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): The point of capitalism personal allowance to £10,000 from April 2014? is that people who take risks should be rewarded when they are successful and should lose money when they Nicky Morgan: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. fail. Yorkshire bank has been among the worst for The average taxpayer will be better off by £700 a year as penalising its good customers to try to make up for its a result of these changes. own losses. That is an abuse of capitalism. I hope that the Minister will take steps to ensure that Yorkshire Banking bank treats its customers fairly, because in too many cases it has been treating them terribly unfairly. 15. Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): What recent Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend has made a number of steps he has taken to increase competitiveness in the representations on this issue, and he is right to do so. As banking sector. [900909] I have said, we want all banks to treat their customers fairly, and the Government are absolutely committed to The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): that. The Government are driving a wide-ranging and ambitious Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): I agree programme of reforms to make the banking sector with the comments made by the hon. Member for more competitive and to give consumers a better deal. Warrington South (David Mowat). Following an article This includes reducing market barriers, encouraging I wrote for the Yorkshire Post, I have received dozens of current account switching, and putting competition at complaints about Yorkshire bank from small businesses, the heart of the regulatory system. particularly about being locked into tailored business loans with very high interest rates and very high redemption Sir Tony Baldry: Will my hon. Friend commend the clauses and payments to get out of them. Will the Church Commissioners for their investment in Williams Minister look at involving the Financial Conduct Authority and Glyn’s as a new competitive bank that intends to to see if there could be an investigation into what has have the highest ethical standards? As well as increasing been going on? competition in banking, is it not also crucial that we have a system of banking regulation with clear Sajid Javid: I believe that my predecessor raised this accountability and responsibility, avoiding mistakes in issue with the FCA, but I would be more than happy to the system designed by the previous Administration? do so again. Wage Levels Sajid Javid: I congratulate the Church Commissioners on their role and the expertise that they bring. Given 14. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): that my hon. Friend is a commissioner, I take this What recent comparative assessment he has made opportunity to congratulate him too. He is right to of trends in real wages in the UK and in similar highlight the fact that the previous Government’s changes economies. [900908] to financial regulation contributed significantly to the 115 Oral Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 116 banking crisis in 2008. That caused misery and hardship absolutely disastrous for families. That is precisely why for millions of hard-working families, yet I notice that we have to stick with the economic plan that is delivering the Opposition have still to apologise. the recovery.

Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab): The Minister Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op): I welcome will agree that a level playing field is important for the Economic Secretary and the shadow Financial Secretary competition. Why, then, did the Chancellor make the to their new jobs, and let us not forget the former misguided offer to the Chinese Government to give Treasury Whip, the Treasurer of Her Majesty’s Household, light-touch regulation to Chinese banks operating in the hon. Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands), this country? If we are going to have competition, will who has finally got the promotion we have been urging that approach be extended to all other banks? him to get for three years. Under this Chancellor’s watch, the UK is experiencing Sajid Javid: The hon. Gentleman will know that such the slowest recovery for more than 100 years, and with decisions are made by the independent regulators—in prices, including energy prices, rising faster than wages, this case, the Prudential Regulation Authority, which for millions of people this is no recovery at all. Yet from has made the reasons for the decision absolutely clear. the Chancellor’s earlier answers to the Chair of the Treasury Committee, he seems to think he can get away Topical Questions with cutting energy bills by simply shifting the burden of his green levies on to the ordinary taxpayer. Let me ask the Chancellor—[Interruption.] T1. [900918] Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental Mr Speaker: Order. I think we are going to get a responsibilities. question.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): Ed Balls: Why will the Chancellor not agree with us The core purpose of the Treasury is to ensure the and Sir John Major that it is the energy companies that stability and prosperity of the economy. Today I can are making the excess profits and that it is they, not the also announce another step in the fight against tax ordinary taxpayer, that should bear the burden? evasion. This afternoon we will sign a tax information- sharing agreement with the Cayman Islands—the first ever with an overseas territory. As a result, information Mr Osborne: First, I join the right hon. Gentleman in on UK taxpayers held in the Cayman Islands will welcoming the two hon. Ladies to their new Front-Bench automatically be provided to Her Majesty’s Revenue positions, although I think he got the title wrong of his and Customs, which will use it to collect the tax that new shadow Exchequer Secretary. By the way, while I is due. am at it, may I welcome the fact that the right hon. Gentleman did not move in the reshuffle, because he is exactly where we want him to be? Mr Campbell: Is it still the Chancellor’s intention to withdraw jobseeker’s allowance from all young people Perhaps one of these days the right hon. Gentleman under the age of 25? will welcome the fact that GDP is increasing, that unemployment is coming down and that today we had the best services purchasing managers index since May Mr Osborne: That is not part of the Government’s 1997. I believe we should roll back some of the levies programme. We are seeking to help young people into and charges that have been imposed on energy bills. I work through the Work programme and the Youth am not clear whether he agrees. Contract. The good news is that the youth claimant count has fallen by many tens of thousands. I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman would use this Ed Balls: After three years of flatlining, people are opportunity to get up and point out that unemployment worse off because of this Chancellor of the Exchequer. has fallen in his constituency over the last year, and As for ordinary people’s rising energy bills, he just does there are—[Interruption.] Unemployment has fallen in not give an EDF. his constituency, and every job created is one that he Is it not the case that, over the past year, energy prices should be celebrating. He should remind his constituents in the euro area fell by 1.7% while in the UK they have of the enormous damage done to the north-east economy risen by a staggering 7.7%? Simply switching green by the previous Labour Government. levies on to the taxpayer is giving with one hand and taking with the other. Why does this Chancellor always T3. [900920] Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): hit ordinary families while standing up for a powerful The most important financial issue in the lives of many few? young families is mortgage interest. Does my right hon. Friend the Chancellor agree that the best way—indeed, Mr Osborne: With questions like that, the right hon. the only way—to keep mortgage rates low is to stick Gentleman is never going to be npower, is he? with the Government’s economic plan of cutting the The truth is that the right hon. Gentleman created a deficit? situation in our economy whereby living standards were hit hard, because he destroyed jobs and economic prosperity. Mr Osborne: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. Like a bonfire on Guy Fawkes night, every single one of Of course, one of the consequences of the higher borrowing his economic predictions has gone up in smoke, and he that the Labour party is advocating would be not just has nothing credible or serious to say about the British higher taxes, but higher interest rates, which would be economy. 117 Oral Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 118

T4. [900921] Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): Is it since 1959. Last month saw the biggest growth in beer not true that the only way to improve considerably our sales this century, with 1 million extra pints being sold standard of living is to focus on the economic situation and £60 million extra going to the Exchequer. I ask him of the country to boost growth and pay down debt? to keep supporting Britain’s pubs and brewers.

Mr Osborne: I completely agree with my hon. Friend Mr Osborne: This is a case of teamwork, because my that unless we have a credibly economic plan to grow hon. Friend has led a brilliant campaign involving the economy, deal with public finances and support many Members of Parliament in support of the local business rather than tax it, we will get the reaction the pub industry in their constituencies and the brewing shadow Chancellor got from the CBI, whose members industry, which is so important in Burton. The work said that the hairs on the backs of their necks stood up that he has done has been fantastic. It was thanks to his as they listened to all the terrible things that a Labour campaign, which drew the evidence to my attention, Government would do to them. The truth is that we are that we were able to take the action that he has welcomed. fixing the economic mess the shadow Chancellor left behind, and that is the best way to improve people’s living standards. T10. [900927] Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): Will the Chancellor make a statement on why T2. [900919] Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): The the decision has been taken to extend HMRC’s pilot of Chancellor was warned that his cuts would choke off the new customer service model in the north-east by the growth that had returned to the UK economy when two months until the end of December? he took the job in 2010. Of course we welcome the fact that Britain is finally returning to growth, but does he The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David not realise that if he had taken the advice of my right Gauke): We want to look at the evidence further, so that hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed seems to be a sensible approach; we want to see whether Balls) earlier, we would not have had three wasted the model is working. The final decision has not been years, the average working person would not be £1,500 taken on whether to extend it. This is about improving worse off, and the talents and potential of 1 million the service for the people who need it most. We believe young people would not have been laid to waste? that that is an important objective.

Mr Osborne: I remind the hon. Gentleman that the T8. [900925] Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): shadow Chancellor said that our economic policies As you know, Mr Speaker, I am of a nervous would choke off the recovery in the spring of this disposition. I was therefore alarmed this year—not year—the very moment when the recovery was under three years ago—to hear predictions that 1 million jobs way. When will a Labour MP welcome the fact that our would be lost, there would be a decade of lost growth GDP has grown by 0.8% and unemployment is coming and the recovery would be choked off as a result of the down? When will Labour acknowledge that it is our Government’s plans. Will the Chancellor allay my fears economic plan that is delivering that? and explain what has happened in the real world?

T5. [900922] Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): One of the frustrations of losing ministerial Mr George Osborne: My hon. Friend is right that office is that one cannot see through the things that one there were a lot of predictions from the Opposition started. Will the Chancellor look carefully at the Dispatch Box. They said that there would be a decade recommendations of the independent future of of lost growth, but the economy is now growing and farming review, which I commissioned, because it has we have had the fastest growth in the G7 this year. They made far-reaching suggestions for changes in taxation predicted that 1 million jobs would be lost, but 1.4 million that will benefit rural areas? jobs have been created in the private sector and unemployment is down. Above all, they advocated—indeed, they continue to advocate, because it was in the speech Mr Osborne: I pay tribute to the work that my hon. that the shadow Chancellor made yesterday—increased Friend did in government. I will make it a personal borrowing, which would lead to higher taxes and higher priority to ensure that his review sees the light of day interest rates. The biggest threat to the British recovery and is acted on. is sitting right opposite me.

T7. [900924] Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Why has the number of the working poor doubled since the Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): What Chancellor took office? progress has been made on the extension to the fuel duty rebate scheme, which is due for further implementation Mr Osborne: The key thing is that people are getting via a submission to the European Commission? into work. That is another Labour MP who has not acknowledged the fact that unemployment has fallen in The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): his constituency.When will Labour Members acknowledge We have completed a call for evidence on that subject that our economic plan is repairing the mess that they and have put forward an initial list of locations that left behind? meet the strict criteria that are required to make a successful application at the European level. Further T6. [900923] Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): On work is needed to ensure that we have all the information behalf of brewers everywhere, I thank the Chancellor that is necessary to submit the application. That will be for being the man who scrapped Labour’s hated beer the subject of a supplementary piece of work and we duty escalator and who cut beer duty for the first time will submit the application early in the new year. 119 Oral Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 120

T9. [900926] Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): I was to the achievements of my right hon. Friend the Secretary delighted to welcome my right hon. Friend to of State for Work and Pensions, and of the economic Hainsworth mill in my constituency recently. Will he plan that is getting the parents of children into work. join me in welcoming the news that production output increased by 0.5% in the last quarter, and does he agree Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Given that that that shows that British business is rising to the the cost of the EU will double in this Parliament, and challenge of rebalancing the economy after an the huge current account deficit with the EU, does the unsustainable decade under the Labour party? Chancellor agree that our current economic relationship with the EU is wrong and that we should renegotiate? Mr George Osborne: I was very impressed by the work being done at Hainsworth mill, which is one of the Mr Osborne: I certainly agree that we need to reform oldest textile mills in Britain and has been going for a the European Union so that our entire continent is not couple of hundred years. It is now exporting textiles priced out of the global economy. We must also make from west Yorkshire to China, which shows that the reforms to the European Union, and Britain’s relationship British economy can achieve remarkable things if we with it, so that British businesses can thrive, compete get the investment and economic policy right. My hon. and create jobs. I point out to my hon. Friend—he Friend is right: we must stick with the economic plan knows this anyway—that the cost of the European that is continuing to improve the situation in his constituency Union would have been much higher if my right hon. and across the country. Friend the Prime Minister had not secured a very good deal. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Morley Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): Every and Outwood (Ed Balls) says, “We did it,” but Labour newly created job in the private sector is very welcome, gave up the rebate. The Prime Minister went to the EU but will the Chancellor tell the House how many public battling for Britain and delivered for Britain. sector jobs have been redesignated as private sector jobs in the past three years? Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Over the past six months more than 350,000 people, Mr Osborne: I am happy to write to the hon. Lady many of them in work, have accessed emergency food with that number. Let us be clear: the Labour party and aid from a food bank. When will the Chancellor visit a the shadow Chancellor said it was a complete fantasy food bank so that he can see for himself the impact of that private sector job creation would outstrip the loss his cost-of-living crisis on hundreds of thousands of of public sector jobs required by fiscal consolidation. people across the country? That is complete nonsense and we have not yet had an apology from the shadow Chancellor. Mr Osborne: I have visited a food bank in Northwich in my constituency and seen the excellent work it does. I Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): Companies up and down commend the volunteers at that food bank, and indeed the country have been investing in manufacturing capacity across the whole food bank movement. for the green infrastructure of tomorrow. Those in the north-east Energi Coast consortium have already invested Several hon. Members rose— £400 million. Will the Chancellor confirm the Government’s Mr Speaker: Order. Last, but never forgotten, I call commitment to support the renewable energy industry? Sir Malcolm Bruce.

Danny Alexander: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): If Scotland chooses the question, and I congratulate him on his new to vote for independence next September, how will appointment in this House. I can reassure him on his handing over control of the Scottish economy to a point. We are, of course, looking at the range of support foreign bank, namely the Bank of England, benefit that exists in terms of people’s energy bills, but we will Scotland’s economy? not compromise on our commitment to renewable energy and green infrastructure investment. That means we Danny Alexander: My right hon. Friend makes an remain absolutely committed to the renewables obligations important point. It would be very foolish indeed for and the contracts for difference, and that will not change anyone to vote for independence on the basis that as part of this process. Scotland will keep the pound. It is highly unlikely that a currency union would be workable, and therefore highly Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) unlikely that any euro-style arrangement for the UK (Lab): The Institute for Fiscal Studies estimates that would be in the best interests of either Scotland or the more than 1 million more children will be living in rest of the UK. The only way to be sure of keeping the poverty in 2020, which absolutely wipes out the number pound is to keep the UK together. of those lifted out of poverty under the previous Labour Government. Several hon. Members rose—

Mr George Osborne: The best approach to lifting Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry to disappoint remaining children out of poverty is to ensure that they live in colleagues, but, as usual, we have bust the box office for working households. We now have the lowest number of Treasury questions. There is nothing unusual about workless households since records began, which is due that. 121 5 NOVEMBER 2013 122

Points of Order Benefit Claimants (Automatic Transfer to Alternative Benefits) 12.35 pm Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): On a point No. 23) of order, Mr Speaker. The Guardian newspaper has constantly denied sending details of UK intelligence agents overseas, particularly to The New York Times, 12.38 pm and yet, this weekend, The New York Times published highly specific information regarding UK intelligence John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): I beg to teams operating in the middle east. Is it in order, Mr Speaker, move, for a national newspaper constantly to refuse to answer That leave be given to bring in a Bill to ensure that individuals questions from the House and to threaten the security claiming state benefits are automatically enrolled onto alternative of our constituents in that way? benefits to which they are entitled when a benefit ceases to be applicable; and for connected purposes. Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman The Bill is needed because worrying and growing both for the fact of his point of order and for advance numbers of people find themselves without income, notice of his intention to raise it with me. However, the stuck in a bureaucratic benefits-bungling muddle or issue he has raised, though of seminal importance, is benefits limbo for extended periods for technical reasons. not an issue of procedure with which the Chair can I have become aware of the problem through a number deal. The hon. Gentleman is drawing attention to what of constituency cases. Mrs N lost her entitlement to he believes to be, and what I think I can probably best employment and support allowance on 15 March but, describe as, an equivocation by The Guardian.Thatisa owing to a wholly official error, the benefit continued matter he must pursue by other means. I know that he to be paid until 1 August, causing an overpayment of has already led a well attended debate on the subject in £1,431. Having approached me for help in early September, Westminster Hall. He may well wish to try to continue Mrs N was left with the option of appealing the appeal that debate by other means. He is well aware of the without any income during that time or of making a location of the Table Office in the House, and he is a new claim for ESA from 16 September, which she dextrous user of parliamentary procedure. We will leave did—it was once again granted. My constituent was left it there for today. without income for almost six weeks, from 8 August to 16 September, and was not advised to apply for an Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): On a point of alternative benefit at any point between March and order, Mr Speaker. I will keep it brief. The last time we September. She managed to keep debt collectors at bay had an opportunity to debate the badger culls linked to only by borrowing money from family and friends, and bovine tuberculosis was in an Opposition day debate on was barely able to avoid the debt trap that is payday 5 October. In that debate, the evidence on which the lending after she found herself in benefit limbo. House made its decisions included statements from the There is the case of Mrs A, whom I saw at my surgery Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural on 12 October. When her benefit entitlement was stopped Affairs, in which he said: in July, she did not receive a decision assurance phone “Evidence suggests that at least 70% of the badgers in the areas call or written notification informing her of her entitlement must be removed.”—[Official Report, 23 October 2012; Vol. 551, to claim jobseeker’s allowance. She has not received any c. 836.] income since July. She, too, has been stuck in benefit I further quote: limbo. Her doctor advised her that she is not fit for “It would be wrong to go ahead if those on the ground cannot work and provided documents to that effect, but the be confident”— Government say she is fit for work, and, because of an error in the system, she was not informed what she Mr Speaker: Order. I recognise and respect the hon. should do. Had she been automatically enrolled on to Gentleman’s commitment to brevity but, unfortunately, jobseeker’s allowance at the moment her previous his attempted point of order was not as brief as I would entitlement ended, she would not have been left without wish, especially as it was an attempted point of order income. She would have been entered into the system to rather than a genuine point of order. I would say to either find work or be enrolled anew on appropriate him, in so far as he is alerting me and the House to state support. What is important about this case is that I statements that he believes to have been in any way have previously asked the Department for Work and incorrect, erroneous or partial, that Ministers and all Pensions what it does when ESA entitlement ceases, Members are responsible for the accuracy of their remarks and was told that it tells people to claim JSA. That, in the Chamber. What we cannot have is the continuation however, clearly does not happen in all cases. of debate by the ruse of a bogus point of order. If I did We then encounter the passporting problem. The not know the hon. Gentleman better, I would think that system is efficient when it comes to people automatically that was his game plan, but as I know him as well as I qualifying for housing benefit. However, it also efficiently do, and know him to be a person of the highest moral knocks people off housing benefit when they wrongly probity, I feel sure that he had some other mission in fall out of the support system. That means that when mind. We will not continue the exchange now. He will they finally ask for help, they are probably also facing deploy the resources of the Table Office to advance his an eviction notice. That is unnecessary. The Department purposes. We can leave it there for today. could simply start them on the new benefit, which it already knows they qualify for. I have been told that the law does not allow that for data protection or other reasons. The Bill would cut the Gordian knot. 123 Benefit Claimants (Automatic 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Benefit Claimants (Automatic 124 Transfer to Alternative Benefits) Transfer to Alternative Benefits) There is significant delay in the system. I am aware of when it comes to transfers from disability living allowance one constituent who, having been referred by the jobcentre to personal independence payment, or indeed the payment to a local food bank, missed an appointment at the of discretionary housing payments or other situations, jobcentre. As a result, he was sanctioned. An appeal such as the case of EG. At times, the Department would take up to 10 weeks—three times longer than the clearly has evidence that people qualify for benefits, but sanction itself. does not manage to pay them and they end up destitute. We should not overlook the effect on the health of I do not think that is the Government’s objective; those left in benefits limbo. The uncertainty, stress and however, the Bill is one way of resolving the issue. choices for those without income experience do nothing Another would be to introduce a legislative and regulatory to help their mental or physical health. They do not face reform order to remove the burden of a formal application. a choice to heat or eat; they are left reliant on handouts It would be preferable to ensure that a claimant and charity—a lack of dignity no one in this House continued to receive regular payments and had any would wish to impose on anyone. overpayment recovered over time, rather than leaving There is the case in Westminster of child EG, who people at the mercy of the debt traps of payday loans or died of starvation after his mother, Mrs G, referred to to be forced to rely on charity, food banks or emergency in the serious case review, suffered a serious illness and support. As the Minister of State, Department for Work died shortly afterwards. She was a survivor of domestic and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West violence and, with her children, successfully sought (Esther McVey), told me in a letter dated 23 October, asylum. After many months, however, she had still not there are stigmas and confusions associated with the been placed on mainstream state support. The serious system at present. As she told me, many claimants of case review reflected on the effect on her health, and ESA, having been found fit for work, fear making a that of her children, of ad hoc sources of income from claim for JSA because they think it might prejudice charities and the local authority, the failure of the UK an appeal. Border Agency to hand over necessary papers, the absurd Although the Minister assures me that this fear is requirement that she become homeless for the local misplaced, I think it would be far better for the user if authority or benefits agency to assist her, and the insecurity we removed that fear. Such a move should have no of her housing situation. The case review concluded impact on the benefits budget, because it would be that the situation was money someone is entitled to and a replacement for a “worrying for anyone; it must have been extremely difficult and benefit they would be getting otherwise. It would allow contributed to her difficulty in managing her children and their decision makers to make informed decisions in the time collective health needs”. they need without leaving a claimant without income. This young mother found herself in a desperate situation. Indeed, it would create a bureaucratic saving, because The failure of the authorities to get into gear and not having to process a backdated claim for housing provide the support she needed contributed to a tragic benefit and council tax support would reduce the amount outcome, yet in the months leading up to her death she of effort for the state. was relatively well. I have examples of people left in We need to remember that although some people similar situations—unable to pay the rent, in fear of have abused the benefits system in the past, there are debt collection and forced to rely on charity and food also people who are confused about what is going on. banks—because of the same bureaucratic delay and As I have explained, that confusion can lead to tragedy, befuddlement that contributed to those deaths. and the Government should support my Bill in order to My office is authorised to hand out food vouchers for avoid such tragedies. As I said, there are various routes the local food bank. However, I have a case of someone towards this objective: the DWP might be able to manage who refused food vouchers, because he could not pay it under current legislation and rules—although this is for the cost of cooking the food as he was destitute. not clear—but a legislative and regulatory reform order Aside from the stress and anxiety an appeal causes to a would achieve the same outcome, and would also be person who is, in many cases—if not the majority—not quite a rapid process. As a member of the Regulatory fit for work and really rather ill, the Government announced Reform Committee, I am sure the Committee would in February that they were introducing a mandatory welcome the work. Alternatively, I would be happy for reconsideration pending appeal during which benefits the Government to take over the Bill. were to be stopped. A freedom of information request Question put and agreed to. issued in April this year revealed: “If the claimant wishes to dispute this decision they must Ordered, request that the decision maker looks at it again (mandatory That John Hemming and Jim Shannon present the reconsideration). Whilst the decision maker is reconsidering the Bill. decision, ESA cannot be paid as there is no legal basis to do so.” ESA may not be paid, but at least the Department for John Hemming accordingly presented the Bill. Work and Pensions could ensure that people are not Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on destitute by paying them JSA. The principle is the same Friday 22 November, and to be printed (Bill 125). 125 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 126 Advertising) Bill Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill State to designate non-EEA jurisdictions that have strong regulatory systems comparable to Britain, and to give Second Reading them permission to advertise remote gambling services in Britain. Those jurisdictions form what is informally 12.47 pm known as the “white list”, and they include Antigua The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, and Barbuda, the Isle of Man, the States of Alderney Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant): I beg to move, and Tasmania. That the Bill be now read a Second time. The Bill will repeal section 331 of the 2005 Act, British remote gambling regulation is currently conducted removing the offence of advertising foreign gambling on a point-of-supply basis. Only operators with at least and, consequently, the distinction between EEA and one piece of their remote gambling equipment require a “white list”countries, and non-EAA jurisdictions. Instead, Gambling Commission licence and are subject to the all operators who hold Gambling Commission remote required standards. This means that overseas operators licences will be able to advertise to British consumers, offering gambling services to consumers in Britain are regardless of where the operators are based. As now, currently regulated not by the commission, but by the gambling operators who wish to advertise in Britain regulatory regimes in the countries in which they are will need to comply with the advertising codes of practice. based. In consequence, there are different regulatory Overseas operators that are required to hold, but fail to standards and UK consumers might experience varying obtain, a Gambling Commission licence will be committing levels of protection, depending on the operator they are the offence of providing facilities for gambling or the dealing with. separate offence of advertising unlawful gambling. The The Gambling Commission estimates that about 85% Gambling Commission is empowered to pursue and of remote gambling activity by UK consumers takes bring appropriate action against the operator concerned. place with operators that the commission does not The repeal of section 331 will also have an impact on regulate. The Bill aims to regulate remote gambling on a Northern Ireland, where gambling is a devolved matter. point-of-consumption basis. With this change, all operators New provisions creating an offence of unlicensed advertising selling into the UK market, whether based in Britain or of remote gambling have been included in the Bill to abroad, will be required to hold a UK Gambling ensure that Northern Ireland continues to have the Commission licence, making them subject to robust same protections for the advertising of remote gambling and consistent regulation, increasing protection for UK as we have in Great Britain. The Northern Ireland consumers, supporting action against illegal activity Assembly formally agreed these changes through a legislative and establishing fairer competition for British-based consent motion on 17 June. Gambling is a reserved operators. matter with regard to the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales. Scotland, England and Wales will Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): The Minister says that all receive the same protection in relation to the advertising this is about regulation and stopping illegal activity. and regulation of remote gambling. What proportion of people is currently estimated to bet illegally in the UK, and what will that estimate be after Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The Minister the Bill has been introduced? has kindly outlined the situation in Northern Ireland. Has she had discussions with the relevant Minister in Mrs Grant: At the end of the day, this is about the Northern Ireland Executive about the regulation of establishing a level playing field. I hope that my hon. remote gambling in Northern Ireland? I know this is a Friend will bear with me for a little while, because I devolved matter, but did the issue arise in the discussions shall go into that matter in greater detail. on the legislative consent motion and, if so, what was The Bill aims to regulate remote gambling at the the outcome? point of consumption. Under the new regime, overseas- based operators will be subject to the provisions of the Gambling Act 2005, its regulations and the Gambling Mrs Grant: I have not personally had any such Commission’s social responsibility and technical standards discussions, but I am sure officials will have done so, requirements. This will mean, among other things, that and I know that the Gambling Commission and others all licensed operators will be required to contribute to will continue to liaise on this matter. research, education and treatment in relation to British Clause 1(4) of the Bill confers a power on the Secretary problem gambling, and to comply with licence conditions of State to make provision, by statutory instrument, that protect children and vulnerable people. about Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): Just to “the making, consideration and determination of advance applications” help the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), may I point out that this is an important part of the licensing for a remote operating licence. This will allow robust objectives of the Gambling Act, and that the Bill is interim measures to be set up, permitting a smooth consistent with those objectives? transition between the current regulatory regime on remote gambling and the proposed new regime. Similar Mrs Grant: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. powers were used as part of the 2005 Act. The Bill will also level the playing field for the advertising I would like to thank the Culture, Media and Sport of remote gambling. At present, operators based in the Committee for its thoughtful and thorough pre-legislative European economic area or in a country on the “white scrutiny of this small but important Bill, and for its list” can advertise remote gambling to consumers in support for the move to regulate remote gambling on a Great Britain. The 2005 Act allows the Secretary of point-of-consumption basis. 127 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 128 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I support the Bill, Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): If a and I agree with its aim to ensure that there is a level company set up in, say, China or America, and advertised playing field. Will my hon. Friend tell the House what only through the internet, would it be covered by the financial benefits the Bill will bring to the Government scope of the Bill? The Minister will correct me if I am and the taxpayer? wrong, but I do not think that it would.

Mrs Grant: My hon. Friend makes a good point Mrs Grant: Territorial restrictions have been removed, about the level playing field; that is certainly what the but if a company is advertising here and its facility is Bill sets out to achieve. However, this is about consumer being used here—or if it ought to know that that protection, which is an important feature of the legislation. is so—it will need a Gambling Commission licence and Taxation matters are ones for the Chancellor of the it will be bound by the regulations. Exchequer. Several hon. Members rose— Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC): Regrettably, a number of my friends have got into huge difficulties through gambling on smartphones, Mrs Grant: I must make some progress now. because the situation is so liberal. I appreciate that I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for companies operating remote gambling will be brought Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) for his sterling work onshore and regulated at UK level, but how will the Bill on developing the Bill and getting it to where it is now. prevent individuals from getting into thousands of pounds- It is fitting that he should be sitting near to me, if not worth of debt and losing their homes, families and quite next to me, on the Front Bench today. I also want livelihoods? to pay tribute to the previous Administration’s review of the remote gambling regulatory framework, and I Mrs Grant: This is exactly why we are seeking to am pleased that the Bill has the support of hon. Members regulate remote gambling. The process is quite circular on both sides of the House. in many ways. Unfortunately, according to the Gambling The Bill is largely a prudential measure to prevent Commission, 85% of the remote gambling that takes what is currently a risk from becoming a major issue in place in Britain is unregulated. Many people are therefore future, especially as accessing online gambling products not protected. The Bill will enable them to enjoy a more is becoming much easier—as has already been mentioned consistent and robust level of protection. That is exactly this afternoon—with the growth of smartphones and what the Bill is about. other portable devices. Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): The According to the latest Gambling Commission statistics, Bill will also ensure that remote gambling organisations remote gambling is very much on the increase—year are paying something towards dealing with the outcomes after year, all year round—and increased by 10% in the of problem gambling. last year alone. We must therefore take this opportunity to ensure that the Gambling Commission has the power Mrs Grant: Absolutely. It is important that they to intervene if problems occur now or at some point in should pay their fair share, just as the onshore companies the future. The Bill will do just that, providing public offering remote gambling already do. Again, this is protection for consumers based in Great Britain by about achieving a level playing field. tightening current legislation to ensure that all remote gambling, whether provided by UK or overseas suppliers, Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): Regarding the level is a licensed activity subject to Gambling Commission playing field for domestically based businesses, the Minister standards and controls. I commend the Bill to the will know that casinos pay tax and employ local people, House. yet they cannot undertake remote gambling from their premises. Will the Government look at what the Culture, Media and Sport Committee has said on this matter, 1pm and consider whether there should be changes to allow Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): I start by welcoming them to do so? the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald Mrs Grant: We will look at all the relevant information, (Mrs Grant) to her new post, which I neglected to do and I am certainly happy to take another good look at under pressure of time at questions last week. I look what the Committee has said. The important thing for forward to debating with her over the coming years. casinos is that they maintain a proper balance between [Interruption.] Well, she may well keep her position in table play and machine play, because we do not want opposition. them to become machine sheds, as some have suggested they might. I can confirm today that I am happy The Bill has been a long time coming. The need for generally to review the issue of gaming machine provision changes in the licensing of remote gambling operators in casinos. was first identified by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) when he was Minister for Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Will the Minister Sport. Online gambling was first regulated in the UK in tell us how the measures in the Bill are to be enforced? 2007. Since that time, in order to avoid taxation, all but one of our major online betting companies has moved Mrs Grant: We will go into this matter in considerable offshore and they justified that by claiming that that is detail in Committee. Enforcement will be a matter for necessary to remain competitive. The consequence has the Gambling Commission, which has many tools at its been that these operators are outside UK regulation, disposal to ensure that everyone is properly regulated which is one of the reasons why we are here debating and that the rules are complied with. this Bill today. 129 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 130 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill [Clive Efford] there is pretty much unanimous agreement, so it is difficult to understand why we have had to wait so long, In 2009, my hon. Friend ordered a review of overseas when the Bill is so limited in what it seeks to achieve. gambling operators who advertised in the UK. In 2010, we began the consultation on extending Gambling James Duddridge: What the hon. Gentleman says is Commission licensing to include online gambling operators completely incoherent. He started by arguing that things offering services in the UK. Consultation responses should have happened faster, but then raised a whole were published after the general election in July of that series of issues that would have delayed the Bill even year by the then Minister with responsibility for gambling, further. Which of those two things does he believe? the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose), who I see in his place. It was then a full year before he Clive Efford: My point is that if the Bill addressed issued a written statement on the Government’s plans those issues, we could understand the delay, but it does to legislate. The draft Bill was published in December not. It deals only with something we all agreed with 2012, and the Select Committee published its report on nearly four years ago. I am highlighting a number of the draft Bill in May 2013. Four years and four Ministers issues about which people who monitor the gambling later, we have finally got the Bill, so what was all the industry are concerned. It is perfectly legitimate for the waiting about? House to raise and debate those issues, particularly when we are intending to legislate in a very important James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con): area of gambling activity. I agree that there have been too many delays, but if the Labour party had not messed around with large-scale Philip Davies: I wish the hon. Gentleman the best of casinos and the accompanying shenanigans, could this luck with all the questions he peppered at the Minister, not have been achieved under the last Government? most of which seem wholly irrelevant to me. I hope he does better than I did when I posed a question to her, which did not seem to get an answer. I wonder whether Clive Efford: As I said, the regulations on online the hon. Gentleman could answer my question, which is gambling were introduced in 2007 and the issues relating rather important to the purposes of this Bill. Can he tell to online gambling were identified in 2009 by my hon. us what proportion of gambling in the UK he estimates Friend the Member for Bradford South, who then takes place with illegal operators, and what proportion began the process of dealing with the situation, and of it will take place with illegal operators after this Bill nothing was held up at all by casino gambling. We now has been introduced? have before us a five-clause Bill that deals with the licensing of remote gambling operators at the point of Clive Efford: The hon. Gentleman will know that the consumption. That is not contentious. Virtually everyone, chief executive of the Gambling Commission said in including large parts of the gambling industry, is in the evidence she gave to the Select Committee on which favour of that. he sits that there was very little reporting of illegal The delay in bringing the Bill forward could be gambling activity from 80% of the market that was understood if it addressed many of the issues that have unlicensed—a point to which I shall return. The gambling come to light since 2007. For instance, does the Bill prevalence survey, which last took place in 2010, has include clauses to introduce financial penalties for been abolished, so we have very little empirical evidence companies that breach licensing codes? Does it set out on which to base our views. What we do know, however, detailed methods for enforcing compliance with new is that people have raised entirely legitimate concerns powers for the Gambling Commission? Does it require and we should address them in our consideration of all licensed operators to display a kitemark to inform legislation. consumers that they are using a UK licensed online We could understand the delay if we had had a full operator? Does it introduce a whole new set of penalties legislative timetable from the Government, but we have for operators who fail to report suspicious activities? not, so why have we waited so long? We want to say that Does it deal with betting advertising before the 9 pm we welcome the Bill and that we particularly welcome watershed? Does it include requirements on operators the adoption of Labour’s policy of regulating online to contribute to research on, and treatment of, gambling gambling, but we are disappointed, given the time that behaviour and problem gambling? the Government have had to consider these issues, that Does the Bill define what a betting shop should a number of them have not been included in the Bill. provide before it can advertise as such? Does it deal with unmanned betting shops providing self-service Guy Opperman: I have been listening with fascination betting terminals? Does it create the framework for a to the hon. Gentleman’s great speech. Will he assist us single form of self-exclusion across the industry for by explaining why, given the multitude of things that he those who need help with their gambling addiction? would have liked to see included in the Bill, the Labour Does it deal with the anomaly of spread betting being party did not introduce any of them when they were in regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority? Does it government? require every operator taking bets on horse racing from UK-based customers to contribute to a horse race Clive Efford: Let me explain to Government Members betting levy? Does it require the betting industry to that the Gambling Act 2005 was a major piece of make some contribution to all sports from which it legislation that has largely stood the test of time. When profits yet makes no contribution? Does it deal with the the legislation was put in place, the then Government issue of dormant accounts, on which the Government said that the issues in the Bill would be kept under promised to legislate? This Bill deals with matters that review. A number of areas have subsequently come have been under consideration for four years over which to light, such as online gambling, which has grown 131 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 132 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill exponentially over the last few years, that present some countries such as Alderney and Gibraltar. There is new challenges to Government, in respect of which regulation technology designed to identify people who may have might be necessary. problems, but there has been no indication from the Government that they intend to use it to protect vulnerable Mr Sutcliffe: The 2005 Act was the first parliamentary consumers. legislation on gambling since the 1960s. Betting changed dramatically between that period and the Budd report Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): One of 2000. This Bill represents the first time the present of the problems of the current system is that, while the Government have allowed us to discuss gambling as an likes of Gibraltar may have a fairly good regulatory issue, and it may be the last time before the next election system, those of other white-listed countries may be less that we have an opportunity to look at the many issues than desirable. affecting the gambling industry. Clive Efford: I have seen no evidence suggesting that Clive Efford: I am grateful for the benefit of my hon. any white-listed countries have a significantly lesser Friend’s knowledge of this issue. As he says, the Bill has regulatory system. Indeed, the position appears to be been a long time coming. The Department has few quite the opposite when it comes to protecting vulnerable opportunities to find time on the legislative calendar, people. The Bill, however, opens the market to people and we should not waste this opportunity to explore all who currently cannot operate within the United Kingdom, the aspects of online gambling that may need to be and that is one of the main points of concern. What addressed. steps does the Minister expect the Gambling Commission Gambling is enjoyed by more than 56% of the to take, and at what stage does she expect it to intervene population, and the figure rises to more than 70% if the if operators fail in their duty to monitor gambling purchase of lottery tickets is included. Obviously we activity? welcome the move to create a level playing field between There is widespread concern about pre-watershed operators who have remained onshore and those who gambling advertising. Although most gambling is not have moved offshore, have based themselves offshore, advertised before the watershed, there are exceptions or have recently entered the market and wish to trade for betting during sports fixtures that are televised with United Kingdom customers. before 9 pm. Can the Minister assure us, given the However, when we consider legislation on matters of amount of concern about the issue, that she will consider this kind, we tread a difficult path between our wish to reviewing that aspect of advertising regulation? promote an industry from which people gain a great Although it is welcome that every gambling operator deal of pleasure and our responsibility to protect the who advertises in the United Kingdom will be required vulnerable. Online gambling is of particular concern to be licensed by the Gambling Commission, the Bill because of its very nature. It is possible for vulnerable will open up the market to operators outside the European adults to indulge their addiction without leaving their economic area and the white list. In her evidence to the homes, and hence to suffer alone while running up Select Committee Jenny Williams, chief executive of the debts that they cannot hope to pay. It is our duty as commission, said that legislators to create a safe and well-regulated environment “the Gambling Commission received one or two reports per in which people can enjoy the pleasure that they experience month from its online gambling licensees, who handled…20% of from gambling. the market, but from the 80% licensed overseas the Commission The online industry has grown to be worth more than had received a total of about ten since 2007. Ms Williams suggested £2 billion a year in a relatively short time, and with that it was implausible there were so few suspicious transactions.” has come a relative increase in the capacity of online In that context, the Bill is a giant leap in the dark. gamblers with an addiction to lose money before anyone What will be the demand on the commission’s resources? becomes aware of their problem. Unlike codes of conduct No one can say for certain what the scale of the problem in other jurisdictions, the Bill contains no requirement may be. The Government have allowed themselves scope for licensed operators to monitor the behaviour of their to regulate in the future, but given their reluctance so customers and intervene if they think there is a problem. far to act to protect the consumer, we must insist on some indication from them of what they are prepared to Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Is there not a potential tolerate before they will take such action. What will be for illegal sites to crop up all over the internet, left, right their response if the commission says that it cannot and centre, because of the lack of consumer protection cope with money from licence fees alone, and asks for in the Bill? extra resources? What if it needs extra powers with which to tackle the problems presented by the opening Clive Efford: I think that we shall be seeking assurances of our market to companies that are currently excluded? from the Government on the issue of consumer protection. The Minister must explain what benchmarks the We shall want to see exactly where the lines will be Government will set themselves, according to which we drawn, and where the Government feel that action can hold them to account. It has taken so long for them should be taken if any form of illegal activity is taking to present the Bill that we cannot pass up the opportunity place or there is no protection for vulnerable people. to secure from them clear guidelines explaining how Online gambling is an important issue of public they expect the market and the regulators to deal with concern, and we are entitled to know how the Government these important issues. intend to monitor it. The Bill does not specify a point at which operators would be required to intervene, and to Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): I do discuss directly with their customers whether there is a not by any means agree with everything that is said by problem. Some people have expressed concern about the Remote Gambling Association, but I do believe that the fact that we have a weaker regulatory framework the enforcement issue needs to be explored further than that which operates under the regulators in white-listed during the Bill’s subsequent stages. According to the 133 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 134 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill [Paul Farrelly] losses. If I place a bet on Tonga and it loses on shirt supremacy by 23 points, I will be liable for 23 times my RGA, not only is the lack of enforcement measures stake money. problematic for the licensing regime, but the Government Action on spread betting is strongly urged by sports may experience problems in collecting the revenue that bodies including the English cricket board, the Football it expects to receive as a result of the change in the Association, the Premier League and the Rugby Football system overall. League. They are experts in this field and work together on sports betting. Will the Minister accept an amendment to the Bill to require those who offer spread betting and Clive Efford: There is a great deal of concern about who advertise to comply with licence condition 15.1, or the details of the Bill. It is easy to understand why it is will she give a commitment to work with her ministerial desirable, and, as I have said, we support it, but its colleagues at the Treasury, who have responsibility for application may present problems. As my hon. Friend the FCA, to get it to introduce its own version of says, during its further consideration we need to look licence condition 15.1 as soon as possible? into exactly how it will be enforced. Ian Lavery: Is there any reason whatever why spread Any company that is paying the licence fee and doing betting, which is very complex and is different from any its best to operate according to the highest standards other form of betting, is regulated by the FCA rather has a right to expect the integrity of the licensing system than the Gambling Commission, and if so, should that to be rigorously enforced. There should be a kitemark prevent an amendment from being introduced to bring on the website of every UK licensed operator to indicate the regulation of all the gambling companies together? clearly to the public that the company is a registered, licensed operator that is overseen by the Gambling Clive Efford: It is my understanding that because Commission. We need to see some evidence that the spread betting is seen as a financial transaction and Government have thought that through. Does the commitment, rather than straightforward betting, it commission have enough scope within its powers to was felt it was better regulated by the FCA. However, take action to protect consumers? What does it mean there are requirements on those companies that are when it says that the provision of a kitemark will licensed to report any suspicious betting activity they effectively happen? What form will the kitemark take, identify—that is covered by licence code 15.1—and the will it be easy to recognise, and will it provide links anomaly created by this current situation is that every to information and advice from the commission, particularly online gambling operator who wishes to advertise for information about the dangers of using unlicensed sites? custom within the UK will be licensed by the Gambling According to the Select Committee’s report, when Commission, except for spread betting companies. The asked why the Bill did not include measures on enforcement, intention of this Bill is that everybody will be brought such as provision for financial blocking or the blocking under one regime, thereby creating a system that is of specific internet protocol sites, the Government assured easily understood by the public. That intention is the Committee that “most were already available”. What undermined by the lack of action in bringing spread does that mean? Will the commission have the power to betting into line in the same way. request financial blocking? Will it be able to request an James Duddridge: In terms of introducing amendments internet service provider to block an IP address? We on spread betting, should we not distinguish between should be expecting matters to move on considerably as sports betting and, for example, foreign exchange spread a consequence of the Bill. Why should we miss this bets, which may be covering an underlying financial opportunity to give the commission the full range of transaction? That is materially different from betting on powers? Why should we risk being behind the game and Southampton to win against Portsmouth. having to wait again for time in which to legislate? It is surprising that the Bill contains no measures to Clive Efford: It can be difficult to draw a distinction ensure that spread betting is licensed in the same way as between such transactions, and the hon. Gentleman has other forms of betting. It rightly requires all betting identified one of the reasons why spread betting is operators, wherever they are based, to comply with treated differently from straightforward betting. Some Gambling Commission licence condition 15.1, which spread betting is provided by companies that also provide means that betting operators will have to share irregular betting services, however, and therefore people might be betting patterns with the commission and with sports confused about how this form of betting is regulated. bodies. The licence condition will then be integrated We should consider how to deal with that. If the FCA across the industry, with one notable exception. Spread is going to continue to be the regulator for spread betting is regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority, betting, we must consider how it will comply with but it currently has no licence condition 15.1, although licence condition 15.1. compliance with that code is cited—rightly—as one of As I have said, there is a great deal of concern about the main justifications for the Bill. Just today I looked problem gambling. Is the FCA able to deal with this at the Sporting Index site. It offers a range of sporting issue? Is this a form of activity that would normally spread bets, including on shirt supremacy. The specific concern it? Does it have the power to require operators example I looked at involved the Tonga versus Cook to have appropriate systems in place to identify individuals Islands match in the rugby league world cup. For anyone with problems? How will it monitor how the operators who is unclear, I should explain that shirt supremacy apply that? bets are about the difference between the totals of the If a scheme were introduced for people with gambling numbers on the shirts of the try scorers of each team. problems to self-exclude, how would it be implemented Unlike traditional bets where people can win or lose a across two different enforcement regimes? If the Minister set amount, spread betting allows potentially unlimited cannot satisfy herself that we can safeguard vulnerable 135 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 136 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill people through the FCA, she must take steps to ensure jurisdiction of suspicious activity, in the interests of that spread betting is regulated in the same way as all protecting the consumer, the Gambling Commission other forms of betting. In the meantime, however, will should be able to revoke the licence of such an operator. she give an assurance that spread betting operators who The Minister will know that the issue of overseas have a betting licence will be monitored by the commission betting operators paying the horse racing levy has been for compliance with licence code 15.1? Should they be a cause of frustration for Government over many years. found to have failed to notify the FCA of suspicious In answer to a debate on this issue on 20 January 2011, activity, that must call into question whether they are fit the Minister’s predecessor but one, the hon. Member and proper to hold a UK gambling licence, and the for Weston-super-Mare, said: commission should have the power to take away their betting licence. “It is absolutely right for the House to urge the Government to come up with concrete proposals before the end of the year, and I The European Parliament has recently passed a resolution am happy to accept that challenge, in line with the mood of the calling on Governments to make match fixing a criminal House.”—[Official Report, 20 January 2011; Vol. 521, c. 1067.] offence. That has been taken up by Michel Platini, It is now November 2013, and no Government solution UEFA president, who has called for all EU Governments to this issue is in sight. to legislate. The request of Mr Platini is also supported At last Thursday’s Department for Culture, Media by the Sports Rights Owners Coalition and David and Sport questions, the Minister said in answer to a Collier, chief executive of the England and Wales Cricket question from me about whether she will review the Board, who, through his sport, is at the forefront of Government’s legal advice in the light of the European trying to ensure that every country across the world has Commission’s ruling on the French betting levy: as effective a regime as possible. So what is the response to Michel Platini’s request? “I agree with the hon. Gentleman to a certain extent”— so there is progress there— Is it possible to introduce a new clause into this Bill to amend section 42 of the Gambling Act 2005 on cheating? “because the levy was created 50 years ago and does not completely The Minister may be aware that the report of the Sports deal with modern betting and racing practices, so, as I have Betting Integrity Panel in 2010 chaired by Rick Parry previously said, I will consult. We will take evidence and look at the situation very carefully indeed, and try to find a modern, recommended that the definition of cheating in the sustainable and enforceable legal solution.”—[Official Report, 2005 Act be reviewed. The power in that Act to tackle 31 October 2013; Vol. 569, c. 1062.] match fixing is too loosely defined and is not used. Indeed, it was not used in the case of the Pakistani The Bill, in effect, brings online gambling under the bowlers. They were prosecuted under fraud laws, because Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963 in exactly the the definition of cheating did not cover that form of same way as bricks and mortar betting shops are covered. match fixing sufficiently for it to be used in that case. So I ask her again to review the advice on this, because a simple solution may be available. The Government rejected The Parry report also had recommendations for sports previous attempts to regulate for a betting levy that governing bodies to improve their act. The sports have includes online betting, which has had the support of done what was asked of them. We are all now waiting those from all parts of the House, on the basis that it for the Government to act, and we have to ask why this would not satisfy European state aid rules. I believe that is: why, when we are attempting to create the most all parties would like betting operators to pay a levy on robust system for regulating the gambling industry here all bets, as the 1963 Act says they should. We now have in the UK, would we fail to introduce this specific form a rare legislative slot and we cannot afford not to get of sanction? Will the Government consult the sports this Bill right. I am talking about a policy that the governing bodies to address the problem of match Minister’s colleagues, the hon. Members for Thirsk and fixing? Malton (Miss McIntosh) and for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), who is no longer in his place, have recently Given the international nature of the remote gambling tried to pass into law, and I hope she will listen to them. industry, it is not unreasonable to monitor how operators There is a considerable legal view that the Bill will act in other jurisdictions when reporting suspicious require levy payments automatically, as it will bring activities. If they fail to notify the relevant licensing betting operators back into the regulatory environment authority in any jurisdiction in which they operate of and, de facto, within the scope of the 1963 Act. There is suspicious gambling activities, not just those related to much concern in the industry that this should not be left UK-based sports, the commission should have the power to the courts to judge, as it inevitably will be. to consider whether to revoke their licence to operate here in the UK. Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): May I gently take The Bill proposes to amend the 2005 Act so that a the hon. Gentleman back to one clause of the Bill and person providing facilities for remote gambling without leave aside the things that have been omitted from it just a licence in the UK is guilty of committing an offence for a moment? As he will know, clause 4 applies specifically “if the person knows or should know that the facilities are being to Northern Ireland. Did he take time and the opportunity used, or are likely to be used, in Great Britain.” to consult the relevant Department in Northern Ireland Similar assumptions should apply to the reporting of about the provisions of the clause and, in particular, suspicious activities. If an operator has been found about the penalties for breaching it, as six months’ knowingly to be providing facilities for unlicensed remote imprisonment seems light indeed? gambling in another jurisdiction, the Gambling Commission must have the power to consider that and remove a Clive Efford: I thank the hon. Lady for her question. licence. Similarly, if the operator is found to have failed The Government are introducing the Bill, not me. I to notify the appropriate licensing authority in another understand that we have been given evidence sessions 137 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 138 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill [Clive Efford] 1.35 pm Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): May I begin for the Public Bill Committee, so perhaps there will be by reminding the House of my entry in the register an opportunity for people to give evidence and speak showing that I paid a visit to Gibraltar in September, at on that issue. the invitation of the Gibraltar Betting and Gaming On the 1963 Act, it would help considerably if the Association, to discuss the provisions of the Bill? Minister could make a clear statement and commitments about the levy. Alternatively, she could work with all Paul Farrelly: Will the hon. Gentleman give way on parties to consider a simple amendment to the Bill to that point? finally address the issue. The recent decision by the European Commission approving the French levy on Mr Whittingdale: I am not sure that there is anything remote operators gives us further reassurance that a on that point, but I am happy to give way. legislative approach is valid. There is considerable good will among Members from all parts of the House, and Paul Farrelly: Following the hon. Gentleman’s discussions in the other place, for such a measure. If we all work over the summer with the Gibraltar-based companies, together, we should be able to ensure that this issue does can he tell the House whether they are still minded to not drag on too far into the future. launch a last-minute legal action in Europe against The Government have said that they will legislate on these provisions? When he was there, did he discourage unclaimed winnings and dormant betting accounts held them from doing so? by operators—[Interruption.] I assure the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare that I will soon be coming to a Mr Whittingdale: The hon. Gentleman will have to conclusion, and I thank him for his contribution from a ask the Gibraltar gaming authorities whether they intend sedentary position. The 2010 report by the right hon. to launch legal action. They have certainly expressed Member for Bath (Mr Foster) on dormant betting concern as to whether the Bill’s provisions are legal, and accounts and unclaimed winnings said: it is obviously up to them whether they take legal action. I made it clear to the authorities and the gaming “It is important to be able to establish whether betting operators associations that I supported the Bill, and that therefore and bookmakers are able to accurately identify the number of dormant betting accounts and others, such as unclaimed winnings I would certainly discourage them from doing so. They that their business creates. did raise some concerns, which I shall discuss in the course of my remarks. Unfortunately, the Gambling Commission do not hold figures on the number and size of dormant accounts.” I wish to make it clear that my Select Committee supports the Bill’s general provisions, as do I. The I say to the Minister that we are missing an opportunity Committee has spent some time examining gambling. to require betting operators to record exactly how much We carried out post-legislative scrutiny in 2011-12 of and what they hold in dormant betting accounts and the entire Gambling Act 2005. Although we examined unclaimed winnings, so that when the Government online gaming, which is obviously the most rapidly come to legislate, as they have promised to do, they will increasing form of gambling, inevitably the main focus be able to deal with the issue. on the 2005 Act related to casinos, the previous The Bill could also have included a definition of just Government’s abortive attempt to introduce regional exactly what constitutes a “betting shop”. The Gambling casinos—super-casinos—in the UK and the provisions Commission definition of the “primary gambling activity” relating to fixed odds betting terminals in betting shops. has permitted Trafalgar Leisure to introduce self-service I do not propose to explore the latter issue at great betting terminals alongside fixed-odds betting terminals— length today, although it remains one of some controversy. FOBTs—in unstaffed premises, albeit against the better Hon. Members may recall that when that Gambling judgment of the commission. The commission is consulting Bill became an Act, the then Secretary of State declared on a new definition for the primary gambling activity that one of its purposes was to make the UK the world test for its licence conditions and codes of practice, and centre for online gaming and that that would be of great anticipates being able to deal with the issue. However, it benefit to the UK economy. Unfortunately, the then has unsuccessfully tried to interpret the primary purpose Chancellor of the Exchequer holed the then Secretary rule to require over-the-counter betting rather than of State amidships by setting the tax rate at a level that move towards automated betting shops. At a time when led to almost every operator moving offshore. There is a there are concerns about single manning in betting single exception, which I am sure the hon. Member for shops, it is unacceptable that gambling organisations Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly), my friend from are seeking to remove the necessity to have staff at all. the Select Committee, will mention: bet365 remains the Will the Minister consider setting out in this Bill what last operator headquartered in the UK. Almost all the services should be offered by betting shops if they wish others have moved to offshore jurisdictions such as to be licensed as such, and remove this loophole once Gibraltar, Alderney and some European Union member and for all? states. In conclusion, for the benefit of the hon. Member for The system that existed at that time of operating a Weston-super-Mare, I welcome the Bill as far as it goes, white list to recognise the regulatory authorities of but more needs to be done. I hope that the Minister will different jurisdictions appears, in the main, to have consider the issues I have raised with her today and worked reasonably well. The Government, in putting enter into cross-party discussions, so that we can all forward the arguments for this Bill, have raised one or agree on a Bill that will protect vulnerable people and two concerns about how the current regime works. In create the licensing system that is the gold standard for particular, they have said that there is some confusion the world. about the different regimes in different jurisdictions, 139 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 140 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill and that consumers may sometimes be confused as to I was also interested to hear the hon. Gentleman’s where responsibility lies and where they should go with suggestion about spread betting. As my hon. Friend the their complaints. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) points out, there is There are undoubtedly some differences between the difficulty in drawing a line between the activities of rules applied in different jurisdictions. I agree with sports betting stops and financial transactions. If it the Remote Gambling Association that, in general, the were possible for the Financial Conduct Authority to industry is reasonably well regulated in the white list require suspicious activity to be reported to the relevant countries. As CARE—Christian Action Research and regulatory body, that would seem to be a sensible move. Education—has pointed out, one or two jurisdictions, particularly Gibraltar, operate slightly stronger regulatory Mr Sutcliffe: Would not having sports betting rights conditions than those in the UK. In particular, the be a good idea, so that we could sort out the definition Gibraltar rules governing the reporting of suspicion of financial transactions related to the market? If sports that individuals might have a problem with their gambling had their own betting rights and the ability to sell their habits are slightly stronger. The UK Gambling Commission sports to the betting operators, that would clarify any might want to consider whether it can tighten its licensing problems with the definition. conditions, particularly on problem gambling, which is rightly a great concern to everybody who considers Mr Whittingdale: I think that would go rather further gambling and the policies governing it. than defining sports betting and financial speculation and would have other implications that would need Philip Davies: I challenge my hon. Friend, who does a further consideration. I am not sure that I am convinced fantastic job as the Chair of the Select Committee, to by the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion, but I would certainly stand there and say with a straight face that he believes be happy to debate it with him later. that the Bill is all about regulation. Might he concede Let me return to the issue raised by my hon. Friend that it is more to do with taxation than regulation? the Member for Shipley. The Government have made it very clear that the purpose of the Bill is to strengthen Mr Whittingdale: My hon. Friend has made his view consumer protection and, of course, the Committee known during the course of our debates and I shall accepted the evidence given to us by the Minister on reach a conclusion on that point very shortly. As I say, that point. It is important that that is its purpose, however, the Government have advanced the argument because if it had other purposes the Government might, that the Bill will result in major gains in consumer as has been pointed out, be vulnerable to legal challenge. protection. However, it seems entirely acceptable to argue that those people who sell gambling services to UK consumers should be required to pay UK tax. Although that might Paul Farrelly: Does the Chair of the Select Committee not be the purpose behind the Bill, if the consequence is agree that the example of Full Tilt Poker, which was that they come within the tax net, that would benefit the licensed by Alderney but not, as we understood it, by Exchequer and create a level playing field, which it is Malta, demonstrates the scope for greater regulatory important we should have. co-operation, particularly in Europe? Some operators might even choose to return to the UK once the new licensing regime comes in. I realise Mr Whittingdale: The hon. Gentleman anticipates that the level at which the tax is set is not an issue for my the next two words on my notes, which read “Full Tilt”. hon. Friend the Minister, but that is what will determine He is, of course, correct. Something went badly wrong whether they return. Many of the remote gambling with Full Tilt Poker, which was regulated by the Alderney operators in Gibraltar and other jurisdictions have expressed gambling control commission. It is right that there concern that there is a danger that the tax will be set too should be a review into how that happened and I high, which will have an impact on their operations and understand that lessons will be learned. There have create an incentive for consumers to look elsewhere—to certainly been concerns about some incidents in white go outside the licensed operators to the black market. list countries, and for that reason there might be some That is a serious threat, which I want to talk about. advantages to consumer protection of bringing the entire remote gambling industry under the licensing Philip Davies: Is my hon. Friend aware that the rules of the UK Gambling Commission. Treasury has already given some estimates of the amount The hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) spent of money it expects from this measure? It believes that if some time on match fixing and licence condition 15.1. the tax is imposed at a 15% rate, 20% of the UK market He is quite right that the Select Committee received will be unlicensed, unregulated and not paying tax. evidence on that and there is no doubt that all the major That will mean that a higher proportion of people will sporting bodies support the Bill, because they have be playing on unregulated sites. expressed concern that some of the other regulatory authorities outside the UK have not always been particularly Mr Whittingdale: That is a matter for the Treasury, good at reporting suspicious activities. Indeed, if we but I agree with my hon. Friend that a 15% rate would consider the statistics, we can see that there have been have a damaging impact. The Remote Gambling far more reports of potential suspicious gaming activity Association has suggested 5% as a reasonable level, but from UK-licensed operators than from offshore operators. the Treasury will obviously have to examine that and If licence condition 15.1 is applied to all those offering strike a balance. The Treasury will need to bear in mind online gambling facilities to UK customers, I hope that the risk not only that its revenues might suffer if consumers that will result in more attention being given to the were driven from the licensed market to the black issue. market but that consumers would suffer, as they would 141 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 142 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill [Mr Whittingdale] becoming increasingly difficult for them to remain in the UK, and unless something was done soon, they have none of the protections that would result from the might very reluctantly have to follow the exodus. Happily, new licensing requirements in the Bill. That seems to be I hope the Bill will address that, but as I said earlier, it at the heart of the issue, so although it is important that all comes back to the rate of tax that is levied. We want we should debate all the provisions in the Bill, the a rate of tax that is attractive to online operators, so critical question will be determined not by the Minister that they license themselves in the UK, and does not but by her colleague in the Treasury. drive people into the black market. One or two other concerns have been raised, particularly However, other measures are also required, and one about the fact that this is an enormous new responsibility or two of those who have made representations on the for the UK Gambling Commission, which will have to Bill have said that the Government must consider taking issue licences to a huge number of operators based in all other measures to prevent illegal gambling online. There parts of the world. The Select Committee had some are several ways in which that could be done. They are concerns about the commission’s ability to do that and not dissimilar from the measures that we have been about the resource implications. The Gibraltar betting looking at in order to tackle online piracy. and gaming association has raised the concern that the There are three potential ways forward. The first is to change could result in brass plating, with the Gambling work with payment companies to ensure that unlicensed Commission merely giving an operator a tick because it sites cannot use the payment facilities offered by credit does not have the resources to go to the other jurisdictions card companies. The second is IP blocking—actually, to question the regulating authorities. The UK Gambling URL blocking—preventing access via the internet to Commission will have to rely on other regulators in a certain websites. That has technical difficulties but is way not dissimilar from its reliance on those on the certainly worth exploring. In the third, search engines white list, so if it is to accept the regulatory approval of have a role. I expect that my hon. Friend the Minister other regulators in different countries it is important will be aware of the vigorous debates that have taken that it satisfies itself that those regulators are doing a place with Google about the extent to which it is willing good job. That might require additional resources, and to take responsibility to ensure that illegal websites, or we expressed some concerns about the degree of the websites offering illegal products, do not appear at the extra responsibilities that will be placed on the commission. top of their search engine results. That too is an area Let me return to the question of the consequence of where more work could be done to make it harder for consumers being driven into the black market. The consumers to be tempted by illegal online operators industry is highly competitive and a very small difference once the new regime is in place. Those are genuine in cost can result in operators offering more attractive concerns, which I hope the Government will address in odds than the licensed operators. On those grounds, the course of debate. there is a risk that people will look towards the black I shall flag up one more issue. An anomaly was market. identified to the Select Committee, about which we had considerable sympathy. Casinos are among the safest Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): The hon. Gentleman places to gamble. They have strong measures in place to is making a succinct point, but does he agree that online prevent money laundering, to identify those at risk of customers are more promiscuous than their retail problem gambling and, if necessary, to exclude individuals counterparts and will follow prices more closely than and so on. They also have experienced, well trained those who have a loyalty to the shop and the shop staff on the premises. For all those reasons, a casino is manager? one of the safer places to gamble—certainly considerably safer than in a bedroom alone, where people are able to Mr Whittingdale: The hon. Gentleman is almost certainly gamble for lengthy periods without any controls and to right. Obviously, people go to high-street betting shops lose a huge amount of money. to bet, but they also do so for other reasons. They form friendships and it becomes a social environment. None Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I am of that exists in online gambling; it is being done in delighted that my hon. Friend has raised this issue. bedrooms by gamblers on their own, and they will look Does he agree that we could usefully employ British for the site where they can get the best odds. Therefore bricks-and-mortar casinos, which have an excellent we need to look at measures to ensure that they do not reputation for responsible gambling, to operate some of go into the black market. the online gambling on their premises, to allow them to monitor how it is working and, indeed, then help to Paul Farrelly: Before the Chairman of the Select frame any regulations that we might need in future? Committee perhaps over-eggs fears of the black market, will he explain why, in the last year, the gambling Mr Whittingdale: That is an interesting idea, but my revenues of bet365—he was right that I would mention hon. Friend’s suggestion runs straight into the problem—the bet365, and I will do so again later—have risen from anomaly that the Select Committee received evidence £12 billion to £20 billion, when it operates in the UK about—that it still will not be possible for casinos to and pays tax on its sports betting activities at 15%, offer their own remote gambling facilities within their rather than the near 1% in Gibraltar? buildings. I could go into a casino and place a bet using my own iPad or iPhone or other online device, but when Mr Whittingdale: I am delighted to hear of the success the Bill is passed, the casino will not be able to offer that of the company based in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, facility through remote terminals, or by giving out their but he will remember that when witnesses from bet365 own devices. That seems an extraordinary anomaly, so gave evidence to the Committee they said that it was the Select Committee suggested that the Bill should be 143 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 144 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill amended to remove it, and to allow casinos to offer a very male-dominated environment. Gambling has changed remote gambling facility as well. I was disappointed tremendously over that period. One needs only to look that the Government appeared not to accept our argument, at the success of the national lottery to see how gambling and I hope they will still think about that and perhaps has become part of the psyche of people in the UK. allow an amendment to the Bill in the course of debate. We need to ensure that people who have a problem However, having said that, I have no doubt that the with gambling are supported. The last prevalence study Bill is desirable because it strengthens the protection showed that 0.7% of people had problems with gambling. available to UK consumers who indulge in online gambling, I say that to the Minister, because I remember from my and may have the additional benefit of resulting in time No. 10 and No. 11 saying, “Keep gambling off the some additional revenue, in due course, to the UK front pages.” They were worried about the Daily Mail; Exchequer. On that basis, I and the Select Committee they were worried about the anti-gambling media. support the Bill. Sometimes, that does not help us to have a legitimate debate about some of the issues that flow from the development of gambling. 1.55 pm I am delighted to be a member of the Select Committee. Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): It is a The former gambling Minister, Richard Caborn, was great pleasure to follow the Chair of the Select Committee. brave enough to tell the Committee that we did not get I refer Members to my declaration in the Register of it quite right in the 2005 Act. What he meant was that Members’ Financial Interests. I am a trustee of the the Act had got caught up in the wash-up at the end of Responsible Gambling Trust, a great organisation that the Session, where deals are done to try to get Bills promotes research, education and treatment for problem through. The deal on numbers of fixed odds betting gamblers. The entire gambling industry contributes to terminals and shops was not a worked-out formula—it the fund on a voluntary basis. As the former Minister, I is just that that was the debate at the time. So it is right threatened that if it did not do so voluntarily, we would and proper that we look at all the issues around the introduce a compulsory levy, but I am happy to report Gambling Act 2005. Although her officials will be that it agreed and has raised over £5 million for research, guiding the Minister to view the detail of the Bill in education and treatment. terms of online issues, I urge her to look at wider issues I mention that because I think the gambling industry and to try to put right some of the wrongs in the 2005 is a very fair industry. Before I set out the context of the Act. The Minister will be waiting to hear the outcome Bill, I notice that the deputy Chief Whip, the right hon. of the research by the Responsibility in Gambling Trust, Member for Bath (Mr Foster), has arrived in his place, which will be ready next year and should give a detailed so I put it on the record that the Bill had its origins in solution to the problems associated with fixed odds my time as the Minister with responsibility for gambling betting terminals. and sport, on the prompting of the right hon. Gentleman. I return to the subject of casinos, which the Chair of It was his idea to tackle the anomaly of remote gambling, the Select Committee raised. The problem of the portability so I place on record my thanks to him for his support of the licensing of casinos has been around for a while. during that time, when we were considering these issues. There are 68 licences, some of which have not been I welcome the Minister to her position in the best job taken up, but buildings are maintained because the in government—the Minister for sport. It is unfortunate licence applies to the building. I hope the Minister will that it comes with gambling, tourism and other things accept some amendments relating to casinos and the on top, which is a bit of a problem. I am pleased that unfair treatment that casinos have received as a result of she has been able to get the Bill to the House today for the Gambling Act. Casinos are some of the most highly its Second Reading; notwithstanding the comments regulated places in the gambling sector and consumers that my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive are well looked after by the casino operators. I hope Efford) made about the time that that has taken, at least there will be some flexibility on the issues of portability we are here today. and online opportunities. We seldom have opportunities to discuss gambling in The Bill puts consumers at the heart of gambling. We such a context. There is a lot of hysteria about fixed considered the issue in 2008, with the support of the odds betting terminals and the proliferation of betting right hon. Member for Bath, now the Comptroller of shops—topics that I am sure we can discuss in a quieter Her Majesty’s Household. There was a need to make environment sometime soon—but gambling contributes sure that consumers were protected. I know that the a lot to our economy in jobs, taxation and betting hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) is concerned companies’ support for sport. In our efforts to protect about taxation and he is right to be concerned about the the consumer, we should not lose sight of the context of level of that taxation, but that should not take away where the industry is and how good it is. Those are the from the fact that the Bill needs to be enacted for principal points around the licensing objectives of the consumer protection. Gambling Act 2005—to protect the vulnerable, to provide One of the things I did as Sports Minister was look at consumer support, to keep crime out of gambling and sports betting integrity, which is a parallel issue. My to give a fair and open opportunity for the industry. hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford), The 2005 Act came about following the Budd report speaking from the Front Bench, raised the issue of the in 2000. As I said in an intervention, the previous piece Pakistani cricketers. There have been numerous problems of legislation was in the 1960s. To those of us old in relation to cheating, match fixing and so on, so we set enough to remember that, betting and gaming was seen up the sports betting integrity panel chaired by Rick as something dodgy—something associated with crime. Parry, which produced a report calling for education in It was illegal to advertise it. Betting shops were behind sports for players of all age groups to make sure that closed doors and frosted glass windows, and it was a they were aware of the risks from the type of gambling 145 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 146 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill [Mr Gerry Sutcliffe] pretend they are not introducing the Bill, even though it is clearly the case that the Bill is nothing to do with that could take place. Some footballers, for instance, regulation; it is to do with taxation. I will deal with think it is not cheating to kick the ball out to get two regulation in a moment. corners or two throw-ins, because some people bet on We know what is behind the Bill and we do not need that, but it is cheating and we have to make sure that to guess: it is all about filling the Treasury’s coffers, people are aware of that. although it probably will not fill them as much as the I hope that when we go through the detail of the Bill Treasury would like. The Chancellor made the objective in Committee we will look at bodies such as the Sports clear in his Budget speech last year, when he said: Betting Group that were set up after the Parry report. “One area where I am today making substantial changes is Such bodies included people from football, cricket, gambling duties. . . The current duty regime for remote gambling rugby union, horse racing and many other sports, who introduced by the last Government was levied on a ‘place of have followed some of the recommendations of the supply’ basis. This allowed overseas operators largely to avoid it, Parry report. One of their great concerns is spread and much of the industry has, as a result, moved offshore. Ninety betting, a topic that has been raised. The issue of how per cent. of online gambling consumed by our citizens is now spread betting is defined needs looking at. The Chairman supplied from outside the UK, and the remaining UK operations are under pressure to leave. This is clearly not fair—and not a of the Select Committee did not take up my offer of sensible way to support jobs in Britain. So we intend to introduce looking at sports betting rights, but I hope the Minister a tax regime based on the place of consumption—where the might consider including that in her discussions with customer is based, not the company—and, from this April, we the sports. will also introduce double taxation relief for remote gambling. One aspect of the Bill that concerns me is the inability These changes will create a more level playing field, and protect to pursue the online gambling organisations for a jobs here.” —[Official Report, 21 March 2012; Vol. 542, c. 803.] contribution to the horse racing levy. I was delighted It is perfectly clear what the Government are doing—the when the Minister was able to announce the agreement Chancellor could not have made it any clearer, and I reached between the betting companies and the horse fully support what he said. I thought there was a great racing industry on the levy. Online operators should deal of sense in it and I think most people here would contribute to the levy as well. agree with him. As I said, research, education and treatment are The problem is that the Chancellor made no reference important, so I would welcome opportunities to increase in his Budget speech to the need to introduce measures support for the trust in promoting that. to improve player protection or to better regulate the The Minister should look at the European directive gambling industry. I do not think that was accidental. It on money laundering. Although we are all agreed that was perfectly obvious why. The Bill has nothing to do money laundering is undesirable, the directive affects with regulating the gambling industry or improving on-cost bookmakers and the limits on what they are player protection. able to pay out on bets. We require some flexibility on The Select Committee enjoyed hearing from the chief the directive, which went through 27-0 on its last reading. executive of the Gambling Commission and from the I urge the Minister to speak to the Federation of Racecourse permanent secretary, struggling to think of any reasons Bookmakers about how the money laundering regulations why the current regime needed improving from a player might affect them. protection perspective. I was slightly embarrassed for The Bill is welcome. It is important that we have the them. They were in a difficult position. They had come opportunity to protect consumers and to do the necessary to argue the indefensible—that the Bill was all about tidying-up in the gambling industry. I found the gambling regulation. When they were pressed to identify the sector to be mindful of its responsibilities to consumers issues that had caused all the problems and require new and of its contribution to employment and our economy. legislation, we did not get anything from them. The I support the Bill and look forward to its Committee hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly) and remaining stages. made the point about Full Tilt. If anybody can give an extensive list of all the problems that have been created 2.5 pm by the current system of regulation, I would be very Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I refer the House to my pleased to hear it, as would the other members of the entry in the Register of Members’ Interests. Select Committee, I am sure. We did not hear much of it It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bradford from the chief executive or from the permanent secretary. South (Mr Sutcliffe), who was an excellent Minister in the Labour Government and is an excellent man. I am Paul Farrelly: One of the main problems is the flight not saying that just because he is one of my constituents. offshore. The hon. Gentleman referred to the 2012 I genuinely mean it. I do not think he votes for me, but I Budget statement and the elimination of double taxation. have not given up hope on him just yet. It is also a Does he agree that that is extremely important if we are pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for to encourage British firms based overseas to relocate Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), who does a superb job here, because taxing their profits in Britain and elsewhere chairing the Select Committee on Culture, Media and would make them uncompetitive? Sport and trying to bring a consensus to it, which is sometimes a challenge, but he does it with great skill. Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I do not intend to divide the House on the Bill. I I intend to talk about taxation more widely a little later, support its premise, but we are in a rather strange because it plays a crucial role. situation. The basis on which I support the Bill is not My understanding—I am sure that the Minister will the one on which the Government are promoting it. It is correct me if I am wrong—is that the Bill is all about the one basis on which the Government are desperate to regulation because that is what is needed to satisfy the 147 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 148 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill European Union and make it fit within its rules. Were I am delighted that an agreement has been reached the Government to admit that it is all about taxation, between racing and bookmakers, but in my view, and the European Union would be all over it like a rash and that of others, including the hon. Member for Bradford would rule that it is illegal because it interferes with tax South, who are better qualified than me to decide competition and will upset other parts of the EU. That whether what I am saying is right, it seems that Ministers is why the Government have been desperately trying to decide at the start how much the gambling industry pretend that the Bill is all about regulation, even though should contribute towards racing—perhaps arriving at we know that it is not. a figure of around £75 million—and then come up with I am sure we all agree with what the Chancellor said a mechanism on the levy to deliver that. in his Budget statement—I certainly do—but I am not If offshore companies are included in the levy, my entirely sure that it was particularly helpful to the suspicion is that exactly the same thing will take place. Government more widely or to the Minister in this The Minister will think that £75 million is about right instance. The Chancellor talked about protecting jobs and will then change the mechanism so that it delivers here, and I am sure that he had in mind the company that amount. Those people in racing who think that that the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme represents, that is a way to get an awful lot more money from the bet365. It should be commended not only for ensuring betting industry are simply misguided, although I can that it protects all the jobs in his area, but for the see why they think it. It would not generate any more commitment it gives to the area more generally, because money; it would just change the formula by which these it sponsors the local football club and is involved in the things are calculated. local community. We should all congratulate bet365 on what it has done. Chris Evans: Before the hon. Gentleman moves on from that point, does he agree that horse racing makes However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon up 23% of betting shops’ business, whereas the entire made clear, bet365’s representatives told the Select online business is 23%, and most online gambling is Committee in evidence that the company would be poker, bingo and other things, so we have to be very under pressure to leave if the current situation continued careful when we involve online companies in the levy? for much longer. Furthermore, they said that it was only really here because it was a privately owned company. Philip Davies: I welcome what the hon. Gentleman They conceded that it would almost certainly have had says. We should be very careful before going down any to go offshore if it was a public limited company. The of these routes and should look for any unintended fact that it is a private company is what has allowed it to consequences. stay. Therefore, I do not necessary think that we should I do not think that the proposal will deliver the criticise those that have gone offshore, because it was an revenue that the racing industry thinks it will. If the inevitable consequence of the tax system and it would Government are concerned that this will entangle them be naive to think otherwise. in a huge legal minefield in the European Union, it I would prefer to try to allow bet365 to stay here, seems to me to be a pointless battle to get into when it which of course we want, but it would be nice if our will generate no extra money for racing anyway. I therefore ambitions were a little grander. I would like to see some urge the Minister, whatever representations she receives, of the companies that are already offshore return to the to resist going down that route, because I think she will UK, which is why the tax rate is so important. If we be led down a blind alley, whatever the superficial introduce a 15% tax rate, there is no chance of any of attractions of that. those firms returning. I encourage the Minister to encourage I speak as a rather modest owner of racehorses—an her Treasury colleagues to indulge in some negotiations owner of rather modest racehorses is probably a better with the betting companies to see what agreement can description, to be honest—so I am really arguing against be reached, because I would much prefer us to set a tax my own interests, because in theory increasing the levy rate that enabled them to come back or to bring back yield is supposed to benefit people like me. some of their operations. That would also mean an awful lot of jobs coming back here. That would be a Mr Nuttall: Only if you win. much more sensible way forward, rather than seeing it Philip Davies: Yes, the levy would kick in only if my as an immediate cash cow. horse won some prize money, and given how rarely that happens I suppose it would not make much difference. Mr Syms: Is not there a broader issue? Sometimes the It is a distant dream one way or the other. Government take firms based in the UK for granted, I want to concentrate on taxation, because I thought which means the gambling and casino industries paying that the question I asked at the start of the Minister’s substantial sums in tax, and we must ensure that they speech was rather simple and got to the nub of the issue. are competitive as well. If this is all about regulation and player protection, surely the first question the Government must have Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. asked is how many people are currently playing on I want to touch on the levy, because a number of illegal betting sites. I cannot believe that nobody has Members have suggested that we should be compelling looked into that, because it seems the obvious question companies that are currently offshore to pay it, just as to ask. I did not hear an answer, and I am not sure onshore companies have to. I think that argument is a whether there is one, but I venture that it will be at least bit of a red herring. There is a perfectly clear and 95%. If anybody wishes to argue with that, they are respectable argument for those offshore to pay the same welcome to intervene. as those onshore, including the levy, but I do not think James Duddridge: Why 95%? that it would make a fat lot of difference to the money raised from the levy going from bookmakers to racing. Philip Davies rose— 149 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 150 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill Mr Speaker: Order. For the record, that was an Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As intervention from Mr Duddridge, but it was uttered an occasional punter myself, I can speak with some from a sedentary position. It is better to stand up on authority in saying that I am very interested in which these occasions. bookmaker is offering the best odds—naturally; that is what punters do. In many respects, online horse racing Philip Davies: I very much agree, Mr Speaker. My punters have never had it so good in terms of the hon. Friend’s idleness is not to be commended. I will competitiveness of the odds and offers such as “best bear that in mind in future and give priority to those odds guaranteed”, which means that if someone backs who can be bothered to stand up when intervening. a horse at a particular price and its starting price is bigger than the price they backed it at, they will get the The 95% figure is my hypothesis. Nobody here appears bigger price—a fantastic offer for punters. All those to disagree with it. If the Gambling Commission wants offers will probably cease once this Bill comes to fruition, to supply us with information following the debate to when the cost base of bookmakers will go up. That will gainsay that, I will be happy to read it, but I do not be a bad thing for punters, who will lose out on the believe that anybody is seriously arguing that at least returns they get from their gambling. That is an inevitable 95% of gambling takes place with people who are consequence of the Bill; it is no good pretending that it properly licensed and registered. The Government seem is not, and we should be open and honest with people to have got themselves into a bit of a muddle. As I said about it. If they still think it is a good Bill anyway, that in an intervention on my hon. Friend the Chairman of is fair enough, but at least we should be honest about its the Select Committee, the Government have not made it implications. There are no painless panaceas whereby clear what they think is currently bet with illegal sites, everybody will get more money out of it; somebody has but they have made a very good stab at guessing what to lose, and the loser is undoubtedly going to be the will be bet with illegal sites after this Bill has come to punter. fruition. The Treasury, which obviously has pound signs Because of the competitive nature of the market and in its eyes as it sees the Bill progressing through Parliament, the fact that many punters have become used to betting has already made its forecasts for the revenue it expects with concessions such as “best odds guaranteed”, some to get from it. The assessment of remote gambling online betting sites will obviously see an advantage in taxation in its 2012 Budget policy costings suggests that going somewhere else—in being unregulated, not applying if a place-of-consumption tax is imposed at a 15% rate, for a licence, and hoping that the fact they are not about 20% of the UK market will be unlicensed, advertising on Sky TV, or wherever it might be, will be unregulated and therefore not paying tax. overcome by their offering concessions that punters have come to love and that give them much greater Paul Farrelly: Does the hon. Gentleman think that value. That is clearly what the Treasury has factored the Treasury really knows what it is talking about in into its predicted revenues. Because it has built its making that stab in the dark, or does it perhaps not prediction on a tax rate of 15%, it is crucial for everybody wish to over-egg expectations of the revenue it is going concerned that the tax rate introduced when the Bill to raise, so that if it ends up at 95% it will have exceeded comes into being is not 15%, because the lower the tax expectations? rate, the less the chance of people using unregulated sites and of companies that are currently licensed and Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman may have no faith regulated becoming unlicensed and unregulated. I support in the Treasury. I am happy to go along with the Office the Bill in principle, but the key part of it is not this for Budget Responsibility, which wants to look at this Minister’s responsibility but the relevant Treasury Minister’s. to see what revenue can be expected. In fact, I am happy I hope she will keep his feet to the fire to make sure that to look at anybody’s genuine predictions. what she intends is not undermined by the Treasury. This is a Government Bill that is supposed to be Mr Laurence Robertson: My hon. Friend is making about increasing regulation and player protection. However, some excellent points. He talked about people being the Government themselves admit in their own Treasury tempted to bet illegally, possibly because of the withdrawal forecast that it will result in our moving from a situation of special offers. I am sure he is aware, because he has where probably fewer than 5% of people are betting greater knowledge of this than me, that in several with unlicensed and unregulated sites to one where countries there is monopoly betting, usually a tote about 20% of people are likely to be betting in that way. monopoly, and it is illegal to bet beyond that, yet Does that sound like a sensible strategy for a Government because the internet is so very difficult to control, who are introducing a Bill to improve player protection people in those countries do bet illegally every day, all and the regulation of the gambling industry? It is the time. complete nonsense and it is there for all to see. This has nothing to do with regulation or player protection; it is Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He about taxation and tax rates, as the Treasury made undersells how much he knows about this subject; he is abundantly clear in its forecast. far more of an expert than me. When the Select Committee took evidence on gambling during a visit to Brussels, Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend think that the where we met European Union regulators and others reason why the Treasury is using the 20% figure is that it in Europe, it was clear that levels of illegal gambling in accepts what I and, I suspect, my hon. Friend believe to countries with much greater restrictions than ours were be the case, which is that punters will seek the best odds far higher. We can predict what happens if the restrictions and that this Bill will increase the costs on the operators imposed are too onerous, because we have seen it in and result in their offering less good odds than those other countries. People go on to illegal sites. As my hon. who are not so regulated? Friend the Chairman of the Select Committee explained, 151 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 152 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill the efforts made to try to stop people doing that are not Philip Davies: My hon. Friend makes a very good particularly successful, as they can be got round. If the point. focus is on closing down internet sites, they will immediately reopen elsewhere. If it is on blocking credit card payments, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. May people will use PayPal and other methods to get round I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that it is not Friday those restrictions too. It is a pointless exercise. People today and that, although I know he is very keen on this who want to get round these restrictions will do so. subject, a few more Members want to get in? Other countries have proved that, because they have tried them all and they have all spectacularly failed. Nothing will change in this regard, because the Bill is Philip Davies: You are absolutely right, Mr Deputy not really about regulation but taxation. Speaker: it is not Friday. I am concerned about the impact with regard to the Gambling Commission, which, like all quangos and Mr Deputy Speaker: My worry is that you think it is a bureaucracies, likes nothing more than a bit of empire Friday, when you usually speak for hours—that’s what’s building. I suspect that it has seen the Bill and thought, bothering me! “My goodness me, all our Christmases have come at once!” Whereas before it has had to accept the licensing Philip Davies: For once, Mr Deputy Speaker, you are and regulation from the white list countries, and accept quite wrong. I have been racing through my comments, the companies that are considered to be good enough, it which I suppose is just like a Friday, when I do the can now get its teeth into every single one of them. It same. I am trying to go through them as quickly as can go jetting around the world checking out whether possible and I do not intend to speak for hours. I was all these individual companies should be a given a just looking at the clock, actually, thinking that I should licence. Lord knows how many extra people it will need draw my speech to a close as soon as possible. in order to satisfy itself that those companies are fit and The final point on which I want to concentrate relates proper to advertise their wares in the UK and get to taxation and what people may wrongly associate themselves an appropriate licence. This Bill is a bureaucrat’s with this Bill. There is too much focus on the big dream. I would be interested to hear what steps are gambling companies, such as William Hill, Ladbrokes being taken to stop any empire building by the Gambling and Coral. To be perfectly honest, I do not worry too Commission, because I am sure that would be an much about the effect the Bill will have on them. They unintended consequence of the Bill, allowing a huge are big, successful and innovative companies and I am bureaucracy to grow on the back of it. sure they have the wherewithal to cope with the Bill’s I do not know what the great problem was with the taxation regime. I am sure it will create some pain for white list. During our Select Committee hearings, I was them, but I do not have a problem with that. The reason scrabbling around trying to think of examples of problems. why I support the Bill is that there is an awful lot to be Only one sprang to mind, which was a notorious case said for companies offshore having to pay taxation in where the legendary gambler, Barney Curley, pulled off the same way as small, independent betting shops in a huge coup one day when he had four horses running this country. I do not worry about those big companies. at different meetings around the country; I think that What I am worried about—I hope the Minister will one was somebody else’s that he used to train. The first consider this carefully—is the Bill’s likely impact on three won and the last one, fortunately for the bookmakers, much smaller internet companies in the gambling industry, lost, but with three out of four winners he still reportedly such as innovative start-up companies. If we look at the ended up making a profit on his bets of some £10 million. history of the gambling industry, we see that it is often He was paid out by all the British bookmakers, but the the smaller companies that have driven much of the regulator in Gibraltar, I think, allowed the bookmakers innovation and change that have been part of improving based there not to pay him out, which led to a huge standards in a number of areas. My concern about the dispute over a long period. I think I am right in saying Bill’s new licensing system and the Treasury’s proposed that the situation was eventually resolved and they paid taxation rates is that those companies will be priced out him out. of the market before they can even reach a scale that That is the only case I can recall where the regulation would allow them to flourish. In effect, they will be in one jurisdiction was fundamentally different from strangled at birth and that would wipe out lots of that in another and the returns to the punter were innovation in the gambling sector. materially affected. Nobody who came to the Committee That could easily be avoided, without altering the ventured that particular example—I ventured it—so principles behind the Bill, through the introduction of they did not seem to be acutely bothered about it. I am thresholds or a tiered taxation system when the tax not sure, therefore, what was wrong with the old regime. rates are announced. Both those alternatives would People are going to be too concerned about big mirror the current income tax system, which has tiered companies— rates depending on the size of a person’s income, a tax-exempt threshold at the lower end and graded percentage rates. The Government should look closely Mr Syms: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. at introducing a tax regime that does not involve a The Gambling Commission already charges high fees simple, across-the-board 15% rate, but that takes into on the domestically based industry. Is there not a risk consideration the size of the companies concerned, not only that it will chase revenue from remote firms, their ability to pay and innovate, and the investment but that it may have to put up the fees for the whole needed for that innovation, because lots of jobs—an industry, including those that are already paying their underestimated number—are dependent on these small taxes? technology companies in the UK. 153 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 154 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill [Philip Davies] It should be done incrementally: start at 5%, see how it goes and review it from there. I hope the Minister will People might say, “They’re based offshore. It doesn’t take that on board and urge her Treasury colleagues not matter.” The companies are based offshore for gambling to damage what otherwise could be sensible legislation. purposes, but they also employ lots of people in the UK who do their marketing and advertising and who create their TV adverts. We would lose lots of jobs in the UK if 2.38 pm we priced such businesses out of the market. Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Shipley Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend agree not only that (Philip Davies), who is knowledgeable and free-thinking. those companies employ British workers in this country, I usually do so on the Culture, Media and Sport Committee but that often, the workers based offshore are also from in order to ensure that he does not have the final word. the UK? I broadly welcome the Bill. As my Select Committee colleague has said at length, it is clearly at the regulatory Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. end of the welcome moves towards a major reform of People ought to bear in mind a number of very small the taxation system—to a point-of-consumption basis—so companies, such as Probability, NetPlay TV, Gamesys, that companies pay tax on profits made from bets Adobo Games and tombola, which advertises a lot on placed in the UK. The Bill is not about the appropriate TV and is growing. Those companies employ lots of level of that taxation. It focuses on other crucial aspects people in the UK, but if the Bill’s regime of a 15% tax of the regime, namely, as it says on the tin, licensing and rate had been in place when they started, they would advertising of gambling. It is a crucial part of reforms never have got off the ground because it would not have to an industry that has hugely relocated, not only been worth their while. The British economy cannot online, but offshore, principally to Gibraltar for most afford to lose those companies and the jobs they create. UK operators, and largely for tax reasons. I use the This is not about Ladbrokes and William Hill. I suspect word “most” pointedly, because there is one huge and they will survive whatever the rate of taxation. It is the important exception, which is particularly important to smaller companies we should be thinking about. my local area. I want to address one or two points that I do not think have been cleared up. Will software suppliers such Mr Whittingdale: Which one is that? as Oracle and Microsoft need to apply for a Gambling Commission licence, given that they are key suppliers to Paul Farrelly: It is bet365, which is the biggest UK software providers of the online gambling and gaming operator and perhaps now the biggest operator worldwide. industry? The Bill does not make it clear whether they However, the Chair of the Select Committee will have will need a licence. I am not sure whether the Minister to be patient, because I will speak about that company a will be receptive to redrafting the Bill in order to make little later. clear the extent to which software providers need to go Notwithstanding the delays to which my hon. Friend down their supply chain to require suppliers to apply the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) referred, I for a Gambling Commission licence. Italy, Denmark congratulate the Government on introducing the Bill and France do not need software suppliers to be licensed. and on sticking to the timetable that they set out in 2012 My understanding is that only Spain does, and that that to bring the reforms into force, after careful consideration is currently under review. I urge the Minister to consider and consultation, by the close of next year. that point and ensure that it does not happen. A replication of that resolve would be welcome on Another point is the extent to which the staff and the wider related issue of corporate tax avoidance by ultimate beneficial owners of applicants are required to huge multinationals, both on and offline, which has provide personal information. With the possible exception gained a head of steam in these straitened times. Although of banks, no other industry will be required to provide gambling, both on and offline, is treated differently so much personal detail, not just of directors but of from general business because it has licensing regimes, virtually anyone in a senior position in the organisation. the design of an effective point-of-contact consumption Why is that needed? tax system holds lessons about what tax authorities can I support the principle of the Bill, but not for the do for themselves, without passing the buck to the reasons given by the Government for introducing it. interminable renegotiation of international tax treaties, Frankly, the regulation argument is nonsense and does which may well take a lifetime. not stack up at all. This is about taxation and on that The Bill and the issues to which it relates have been basis I support the Bill, but only if the Government set well scrutinised in this Parliament. The experience of the taxation at a sensible and affordable rate. Before we the UK since the passing of the Gambling Act 2005 has get to Third Reading, I hope the Treasury will indicate been referred to at length. That was the subject of a the likely taxation rates and whether it will consider DCMS consultation that started in 2009, before the last tiered rates or a much lower rate. If the tax rate is too election, which recommended the current course. The high, I may no longer support the Bill, because it could Select Committee endorsed that approach in the report have unintended and damaging consequences. that we issued in July 2012. This April, the Committee Whatever revenue is raised will be good for the published another report welcoming unanimously and Treasury—it will get more in the future than it is getting on a cross-party basis—although perhaps for different now—so why not try the rate at 5% and see what reasons—the main thrust of the draft Bill following happens? If there is no big issue, it could then increase it extensive pre-legislative scrutiny. In January, the House to 10%, and to 15% at a future date. Why go straight in staged a precursor to this debate on the private Member’s at 15% and perhaps have lots of unintended consequences? Bill promoted by the hon. Member for West Suffolk 155 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 156 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill (Matthew Hancock), which was introduced by the hon. The firm is a leading member of the UK’s Remote Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) following Gambling Association, which John Coates has chaired his move to the Government Front Bench. I recall that and which does much to promote responsible gambling that Bill was intended as a parade ring for the gambling and the industry overseas. However, unlike other leading concerns of the Newmarket and Thirsk race courses, members, including household names such as Ladbrokes but it covered much of the same ground as this Bill. and William Hill, bet365 supports the changes in this I will be brief and will not run around the Select Bill because it is mainly based here and not offshore. If Committee circuit, as the hon. Member for Maldon it is so successful while paying taxation, why should its (Mr Whittingdale) has done. Once again, he has proven competitors not do so too? I do not think that the UK’s himself to be Essex’s own latter day Seabreeze in the legislative framework should discriminate between a way that he has galloped around the track. However, it private company and a publicly quoted company, even is worth re-emphasising the extent of the flight of most if publicly quoted companies are motivated by profit online gambling offshore and the resulting loss of tax to maximisation. the Exchequer. The new regime should, if carefully I sympathise with some of the arguments that have designed, encourage a more level playing field for the been made by bet365’s competitors and by the RGA online operators who have stayed and for the rest of the during the gestation of the Bill, which we have heard traditional sports gambling industry in the UK. about today from the hon. Member for Shipley. I also welcome the change of tone from the RGA towards The Chair of the Select Committee has waited long these reforms, which will surely happen. I hope that enough. Chief among the online companies that continue there is no challenge from the Gibraltar-based companies to base their sports gaming operations in this country is in Europe, because that would be a delaying tactic that bet365. It is, in many respects, a modest company with a is all about taxation. great deal to be immodest about. It certainly does not seek the limelight, but I do my best for it. In Committee and in the subsequent stages of the Bill’s passage, we must have the best possible scrutiny to Bet365 is based at Festival Park in Hanley in the get the legislation right. The success of the regime will constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke- depend on British consumers choosing to gamble with on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt). In 1986, Festival licensees who have chosen to go with the Gambling Park was the site of Britain’s second national garden Commission. There will have to be effective enforcement festival. The first was in Liverpool and the successive to deter non-licensed companies from muddying the ones were in Glasgow, Gateshead and Ebbw Vale. They waters with a grey or black market. There are outstanding were a sort of biennial Olympics, or biennale as Boris licensing issues on which the industry is being consulted. would describe them, for Britain’s most deprived areas We must remember that this is an international industry during the pain of the Thatcher era. Stoke was chosen in which operators hold licences overseas in reputable after the closure of Shelton Bar steelworks in a north jurisdictions. As the RGA says, it is in everyone’s interests Staffordshire that was ravaged by the loss of its coal that the regulators work together. mines and many of its pottery makers. As we have heard, it is crucial that we get the level of Bet365 is a world-beating break from that legacy. It is taxation right. It is also important to get the definition one of the most phenomenal success stories in British of what is to be taxed right. I hope that the Treasury is business in the new millennium, having been started in listening to the arguments from the industry for a gross 2000. With more than 2,000 highly skilled staff, it is profits tax, rather than a wider gross gaming revenue now the largest private sector employer in north definition, which rather moves the goalposts from what Staffordshire. It has led the local regeneration without a the operators were expecting. hand up or a handout from Government. In the last year, in a highly competitive industry, it has increased In listening to the industry, we must recognise that its pre-tax profits from online gaming by more than other jurisdictions, notably in Europe, have successfully 50% to about £180 million. It has done that in just introduced similar licensing systems and taxation on a 13 years. As I have said before, £20 billion was wagered point-of-consumption basis. That is reaping revenue for with bet365 in 2012-13, which is a 57% rise. That has their Exchequers. One of the most recent countries to happened because it is one of the industry’s most innovative do so was Denmark. The duty there is 20%, which is and trusted players. higher than the 15% gross profits tax in this country. None of the major operators—all responsible members Unlike its online competitors in the UK, bet365 paid of the RGA—have seriously suggested to the Select £31 million in corporation tax to the Exchequer last Committee or to anyone else that they would not apply year. With betting duties and VAT, over the years it has for a licence under the new regime established by the paid hundreds of millions of pounds more. It also Bill, but instead join an unlicensed or grey market. pumps a fortune into the local premiership football They have not done so in Denmark, Germany, Greece team, Stoke City, which is another source of pride and a or Spain. Frankly, the UK is too important a market sign of its commitment to the local area. Charities and and their reputations are too important for them to do good causes benefit from the Bet365 Foundation, the so here. I repeat: if bet365 can be so successful and Stoke City Foundation and the Coates family themselves. supportive of these changes, that also shows what the The reason bet365 remains in this country is not just competition is capable of doing. that it is privately owned. It is because the Coates To conclude, once we implement this new system—by family—Peter, the Stoke City chairman, his daughter the close of 2014, I hope, and following parallel moves Denise, who was the founding force of the company, by other European countries—UK operators, including and her brother John, the joint managing director—believe bet365, will not only have a greater degree of certainty in creating employment where they come from and in for their future investment and growth, but in co-operating paying their fair share of tax. with, rather than resisting, the new British system, all 157 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 158 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill [Paul Farrelly] sufficient assets are deposited in the UK, or whether any entity subject to action by UK regulators or the those who claim to be a reputable UK company will be authorities has assets in the UK that can be picked up. better placed to argue, particularly at European level, They must also consider whether people from remote for fairer access to other major markets such as France companies have locally based directors who are responsible and Italy, and to ask the UK Government to help for what they do—that is important. support the industry in Europe and worldwide. The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly) asked whether there ought to be sanctions 2.50 pm against individuals or businesses that provide facilities for offshore remote gambling companies. That is a Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I rise to support the difficult area and an absolute minefield, and there are Bill, although I am a little disappointed that it is so tricky issues for the Government to consider, which narrowly drawn as I think that major issues need means setting out a balance. In reality, however, because considering. Gambling is very much part of modern life we are not getting tax from the remote industry, the UK in Britain. We all cheered the Olympians in 2012, and a has probably lost £1 billion or £2 billion in revenue over lot of that success was built on the national lottery. One the past few years, and it is an area in which any sensible needs only to look at the various books produced at Government would look for reform. Budget time to see how much the industry generates in A number of other issues have been raised, including taxation to pay for the things we want in this country, why we have to wait until December 2014 before we such as health, education or law and order. bring in a new rate. By some estimates, the UK may well Gambling is an important industry, and it is also part lose £200 million or £300 million by having that delay. of our offer as a country that many people come to The issue raised by the Culture, Media and Sport visit. We need only look at casinos in London to see that Committee is also important. Someone can gamble a high percentage of people in them are visitors to this remotely on an iPad in the street, but when they go into country who have come to take advantage of the facilities a casino, which is safe, regulated, taxed, and where and what we have to offer. Progress was clearly made in people have a duty to look after their general welfare, the Gambling Act 2005, but given the way the internet they are not allowed to. I was pleased after my earlier is developing, it is difficult without a crystal ball to intervention when the Minister said that the Government work out what the future will bring. It is clear that we might consider that issue during the passage of the Bill. have lost a large slice of the industry to abroad because A number of points in the broader industry need of the tax system, and it is therefore perfectly sensible addressing. The hon. Member for Bradford South for the Government to look at ways and means of (Mr Sutcliffe) mentioned the portability of casinos. A tempting people back to the UK to make a bigger lot of our—very successful—industry still runs under contribution. the Gaming Act 1968, which is nearly 50 years old. We ought to be aware of concerns that we might load Certain issues need looking at if we are to modernise too much on the Gambling Commission because it the industry and for it to continue to be a success. might then load higher fees on to domestically based businesses. Many of those businesses found that the size Mr Sutcliffe: That is why it is important to consider of the commission compared with the old gambling issues that have been wrong for some time and put them board, and the number of people it employs, has put right in the Bill—I hope the Minister will win that battle their fees up substantially over several years. Many The temptation is to get the Bill through with its core issues must be considered and this Bill is part of the values, but not to look at the wider issues. Perhaps this solution. I suspect that the other part of the solution, as will be the only time we have to get it right. we discussed earlier, will be in the Finance Bill following the Budget. Mr Syms: The hon. Gentleman raises a good point. A number of important issues have been raised, We are dealing with a specific problem, and as my hon. include how we tempt offshore companies to come Friend the Member for Shipley said, the driver is clearly back. Do we tempt them back by setting a competitive the Treasury which sees an issue it needs to deal with to rate? My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip raise money. That does not mean, however, that no Davies) made a strong argument for that, but there are a other aspects of the whole industry need considering number of competing concerns. The domestic industry and modernising. When the hon. Gentleman spoke is clearly upset that people offshore can set better odds earlier he mentioned the Daily Mail test, and I suspect and therefore take customers, but we must also consider all of us in politics get a little wary when talking about the rate we set, as that could ensure many more illegal the gambling and casino industries and all those other sites in the UK, which raises the issue of problem industries. In reality, however, if the Government cannot gambling. amend the Bill, there is a good argument for introducing, I think we have a responsible domestically based certainly early in the next Parliament, another Bill to industry that, as I said, generates a lot of tax. It has cover the broader gambling and casino industry, to codes and practices that it sticks to, and it is part of our make it a little more responsive to modern demand. offer as a country. It also expects a degree of fairness. I was interested in comments by the hon. Member for When we talk about a level playing field, we must take Newcastle-under-Lyme about how bet365 had provided into account the millions of pounds of investment, the regeneration for Stoke. We should not underestimate thousands of people who are employed, and the tax the fact that the gambling industry is a factor in they generate. The rate we set for remote gambling regeneration. It certainly was in Atlantic City, and one operations will be important, but the Gambling needs only to look at what is happening in the United Commission and Treasury must also consider whether States to see that many local governments and other 159 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 160 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill areas have deliberately attracted and promoted that In a world in which sadly we have seen names such as industry because it can help local areas. A Government Woolworths and HMV disappear from the high street, who want certain areas of our country to prosper and the gambling industry has been at the forefront of regenerate could do a lot worse than looking at the innovation and technology. I want to focus my remarks gambling industry as a potential source of regeneration on that. When I left the industry over 12 years ago, for some areas that are struggling in the modern world. online gambling was in its infancy. If people walked I broadly support the Bill. I am a little disappointed into a shop at that time, they would think the industry with its scope because there is unfinished business in was in decline. The punters were mainly either coming the broader gambling industry, but I look forward up to retirement or retiring. The only thing in the shops to the passage of the Bill. I hope that the clever people— that kept them going was the amusement prizes machines, the bright people with towels round their heads in the the forerunners of fixed odds betting terminals. Treasury—will find a good way of generating money to In reality, the trade was changing. It is important to help the public services that we all want. realise that the industry has been forced to be innovative and adaptable. More than a quarter of William Hill online customers place bets on their mobile, smartphone 2.58 pm or iPad. The industry is continually changing. People Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): I refer the House who bet online would probably not have taken a trip to to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial their local bookie to bet on a horse. If anybody turns on Interests, and I welcome the Minister to her place. She the television tonight to watch the football, the last is the Minister responsible for sports, and having served things they will see before kick-off are adverts for odds with her on the Justice Committee I know that she is on the first goal scorers. The people watching the adverts level-headed and takes a non-partisan view on things. I are not going to run off to their local bookies to put think she is an excellent addition to the Department, £5 on a match result. They will instead get out their but I caution her on one thing. I know that she loves smartphone or iPad and bet from the comfort of their tennis and is a bit of a tennis freak, but I hope that she living room. looks at other sports as well. Frankly, bookies have to be innovative. They must I am pleased to speak about this Bill. Bookmaking keep up in an ever-changing industry, and have found was my family business—my mother and father were ways to reach customers who previously would not have bookmakers, and in fact I am the son of a bookmaker looked at them at all. When we talk about businesses in and the son of a bookmaker’s son. Indeed, bookmaking this country, it is important that we look to gain positive was my first job after university, and like the hon. aspects of all businesses, no matter what our perceptions Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), I am sure, who also or prejudices of certain industries. worked in betting shops, I could entertain the House On the detail of the Bill, I do not think any hon. with tales of the characters we would meet in betting Member will disagree that the priority must be to shops. I know, however, that there has already been a protect the consumer. We need to ensure that we do not warning about time, so I will limit my remarks to what see sites operating illegally and offering bets to UK is in the Bill. consumers. We need an assurance from the Government In the past few years, the betting industry has suffered that the Gambling Commission has the appropriate from an image problem. The country has a tradition of powers to deal with illegal operators. As somebody who playing the football pools and of crossing its fingers has worked in the industry, I know that the one thing we each and every week in the hope of winning the do not want in the betting trade are black market national lottery, but people seem to look down their operators. I am sure the hon. Member for Shipley noses at the betting trade. There is a perception that agrees that when we worked in the betting trade we were there is a betting shop on every corner, and yet, when we constantly competing with illegal betting operators, talk about gambling, it is important that we understand whether they operated out of the pub, the side street or the history of the industry. In the 1970s, there were their houses. We—the people who played by the rules 16,000 betting shops; today there are just 9,000. The and paid their taxes, and who had betting licences—were idea that there are more betting shops is perception constantly undercut. I fear that the same thing could more than anything else. People can walk into any happen as a result of the Bill. newsagent or supermarket and be offered a wide range We must ensure that strong licensing conditions are of scratchcards and other gambling opportunities, but in place but, at the same time, we must ensure that the bookie is blamed for so-called gambling problems in licensing conditions are imposed in a timely, effective this country. and fair way. Black market operators should be run out That is not all. The betting shop is blamed for the of business as quickly as possible. I know that the decline in our high streets. Betting shops are tarred with Government have already rejected the idea of internet the same brush as the pawnbroker and the money shop. protocol address blocking and financial transaction Rather than bash the betting industry, it is time to talk blocking, but if we are serious about ensuring proper about our betting firms as a great British success story. enforcement, we need to look at that again. I have some The industry contributes £3.2 billion to UK gross domestic sympathy with the hon. Member for Shipley. I very product each year and provides £1 billion in taxes. often do not agree with him politically, but a lot of what Betting shops directly employ 55,000 full and part-time he has said makes a lot of sense. jobs, which is the equivalent of 10% of the entire leisure The hon. Gentleman mentioned the point-of- industry. The work force are mainly women, some of consumption tax. I agree with the findings of the Culture, whom have re-entered the workplace after having children, Media and Sport Committee, which warned that the or students, who need flexible or part-time work while Government need to be careful with how steep they studying, as I did when I was at university. make that tax. We know that the UK retail betting 161 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 162 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill [Chris Evans] My final point—I do not want to take up too much time—is on GamCare. We see the adverts on the television industry is competitive. There is a huge focus on customer and the internet. People can click on the icon and service and brand loyalty. As I said in an intervention receive the help they need. We have heard a lot in the on the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), past about payday lenders; we can learn from that. We the Chairman of the Committee, online gamblers are can also learn something about self-exclusion. I believe far more promiscuous. They will shop around for the that the betting industry is almost paranoid about problem best price. They will not worry. There are two sets of gamblers, but very often we can be proud of the industry. customers: the customer who wants to bet heavily online I will support the Bill, and I look to the Minister to give and shop around for the best price, and the customer the assurances for which I have asked. who has been going to his local shop for years. The latter likes the atmosphere of the bell ringing before the 3.8 pm dogs go off. He likes running up to the counter quickly James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con): to place his bet. That is what he lives for. He also likes I thank the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) for the staff—he likes sitting down for a cup of tea with the timely completion of his speech, which allows me to them. He will not go online and shop around in that leap to my feet. The hon. Gentleman gives my hon. way, but others will. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) a run for As the hon. Member for Shipley has said, if the tax is his money as the champion of betting, and particularly set too high by the Treasury, it will stifle one of the most of betting at bookmakers. I am not saying that out of innovative industries out there. Betting is a growth bitterness because my hon. Friend called me idle—I industry. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle- should have been faster on my feet. under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly) mentioned the growth of bet365 over 13 years, which was down to the innovation The hon. Gentleman makes a bid for being the champion it has shown online. However, if that tax is too high, I of betting shops, rather like the hon. Member for believe we will open a new market for, as I have said, Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly) made a bid for unlicensed, illegal operators, which will not comply being the champion of online betting. I rise to identify with the new regime and which can offer better odds my constituency as perhaps the epicentre of bricks and than licensed operators such as Ladbrokes, William mortar casinos. Three of the 142 casinos in the UK are Hill, Betfred and bet365. in my constituency, all within a mile and a half along the seafront. I will go on to talk in detail about a fourth Modelling by Deloitte in its 2011 report, “The Impact that is opening up on those golden couple of miles. of a Point of Consumption Tax on the Remote Gambling Industry”, demonstrated that a 5% rate of tax would Reflecting on the Minister’s introductory comments, mean that as many as 13% of UK online customers it is brilliant to see her in her new job. I was a little would move to the unlicensed or illegal market. At 10%, worried in the first week. Most Ministers are instructed 27% of business would move to the illegal market. I to hit the ground running, but, looking at comments would hate to see how many people would go to the from journalists, the Minister seemed to be flexing her illegal market if we set the rate too high at, for example, sporting credentials in karate and throwing journalists 15%. I mentioned Woolworths and HMV going out of around her private office. I am not sure how well that business; I would hate to see companies that we have will work out for her in the long run, but if she ever seen on our high streets for so long, such as Coral, needs me to do anything I will certainly think twice William Hill and Ladbrokes, having difficulties and before disagreeing. Having said that, I would love to going out of business. serve on the Public Bill Committee and will be in I started my career in an independent bookmakers—Jack negotiations with her on one or two amendments I Brown, which no longer exists. One sadness I have—anyone would like the Government to table if the Chair of the who has worked in the betting industry will know Select Committee does not table them. this—is that the independent bookmaker has disappeared I criticised the hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) from the high street. I went out on Friday night and saw for the enormous list of measures he wants included in an independent bookmaker. That was a novelty and a the Bill, so I hesitate to ask for more provisions—I want rarity, but when I was younger, it was a familiar sight. I my little bit, but not necessarily his. The Bill is small, am deeply concerned that, if we set the tax too high, the but I suspect that if the hon. Gentleman got everything firms for which people have some sort of warmth and he wanted, I would need a hand to get out of my seat empathy will go out of business. and lift the Bill. The Bill is important because, ultimately, its purpose I want to focus on the interaction between online is to protect consumers—that is what it should be betting and bricks and mortar casinos. This is important about—but I would like to see more. When the Minister not just in relation to deregulation or taxation—my responds to the debate, I would like her to provide hon. Friend the Member for Shipley hit the nail on the assurances that the Gambling Commission has sufficient head; this is a much greater part of the process—but in resources to deal with the regulatory requirement it what can be done online compared with what can be must undertake. We need to be extremely careful that done offline in a bricks and mortar casino. As I said, we do not stifle a forward-thinking and forward-moving there are 142 casinos in the UK, which means that 3% industry. The fact is that gambling is a growth industry. are in the constituency of Rochford and Southend East. I do not want the Bill to do anything to change that. While I am bragging—if you will allow me a brief Ultimately, I believe we can learn something from the diversion, Mr Deputy Speaker—I will say that 8% of sector. It has been innovative and has responded to UK piers, by metre, are in the constituency too. It is a challenges in the market that would have brought down wonderful place to go for entertainment, with the Genting lesser industries. I think that Members across the House Club, Genting Electric and Rendezvous casinos, and would agree that we can learn from that. the soon to be opened Park Inn Palace hotel. 163 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 164 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill My hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms) The Minister indicated that she was sympathetic to made many good points, but I picked up in particular the point. I am interested to hear, in her concluding on his comments on regeneration. At a difficult time for remarks, how that sympathy will play out. Does she the economy when high streets are not doing so well, expect Back Benchers, on limited resource, to start Southend high street is doing well and the seafront is tabling probing amendments, or will the Government being regenerated. When I arrived in Southend more table a new clause that we can all consider? The latter than 10 years ago, there was a beautiful but derelict would be my preference, rather than the unfair process 19th-century hotel, the Palace hotel. The Government of the Select Committee coming up with an idea, an used it to house asylum seekers on a temporary basis, hon. Member pushing it forward in the Bill Committee, before they could be found more suitable accommodation. the Government considering it, the consultation perhaps That made the area, to a degree, a no-go zone. It is now not coming back on Report, and then, quietly, the a four-star hotel, and the company will be opening Select Committee’s work coming out as a Lords amendment another casino. It may even be a five-star hotel; it at the end of a long day, and the Government saying it certainly should be, given the quality of service I received. is just an additional tidying-up matter. There should be The gambling industry can be of significant benefit to a greater degree of transparency. I would like the Minister constituencies, whether in Newcastle, from betting shops to introduce a new clause which we can all look at, or from online casinos. rather than relying on us to write one up on the back of Genting casinos employ more than 170 members of a fag packet—be it plain or with pictures. staff in Southend and the company has invested millions It has been a pleasure to contribute to the debate. I in the economy. It supports the broader community hope to have the pleasure of being a member of the Bill through mayoral charities. All three casinos have been Committee, where I can talk more about Rochford and fantastic on responsible gambling. Governments always Southend East and the value of bricks and mortar ask for more and more. I often wonder what more the casinos. industry can do, but as Governments tinker with taxation and regulation they feel they should ask for more without 3.18 pm understanding fully what that could be. There is a tacit Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the understanding, which is in many ways false, whereby Minister on her new position and look forward to her the industry says, “We are trying to do more; what more response to the debate. can we do?” and the Department and Ministers do not have a hit list of what they want, because so much is Hon. Members have referred to taxation and regulation, already being done. but I would like to focus on enforcement, in particular in relation to problem gamblers and others who are vulnerable. When I read the Bill and realised it would Mr Sutcliffe: The hon. Gentleman will recognise that provide a regulatory framework for online gambling Governments can sometimes apply pressure, which is providers that are not based in white-listed jurisdictions, what we did with the responsibility in gambling levy. I was pleased that at long last we would have regulation— That voluntary levy—voluntary donations from the that had to be good. I have also received advice on the gambling industry—is now worth more than £5 million, Bill and some concerns have arisen, in particular relating which shows that the industry does consider the problems to those who are vulnerable. that problem gamblers face. At the moment, online gambling providers located in jurisdictions that are not on the white list can access the James Duddridge: Absolutely. I have had a number of UK market, despite the fact that they are not regulated discussions about individual gamblers in Southend who by the UK Gambling Commission or by a domestic have put themselves on the register and, as a result, have regulatory regime deemed sufficiently robust to justify been protected. The protections are not, as a number of their being deemed a white list jurisdiction. The only hon. Members have said, in the online arena and I am thing they cannot do is advertise in the UK. The fact deeply concerned about that. While the Government that companies not subject to proper regulation can are, to a degree, looking at online and bricks and access the UK should concern anyone who knows anything mortar together, the two are still too polarised. I can about the social problems associated with gambling. put that down only to the Government wanting to Problem gambling is a desperately destructive social divide and conquer the industry by setting up slightly phenomenon that brings real suffering and economic different regulations, rather than operating en bloc, but cost. According to the Gambling Commission, 450,000 they are disadvantaging one of the more high-performing people in the UK suffer from problem gambling, the sectors and that is ludicrous. effects of which should not be underestimated: it can My hon. Friend the Member for Maldon take families to breaking point and beyond and sometimes (Mr Whittingdale) described the Essex sea breeze. In his lead to suicide. As a modern society, it is incumbent on penultimate point, he talked about online gambling in us to ensure that the regulatory framework for gambling bricks and mortar casinos. It is ironic that a casino is provides the greatest possible protections for vulnerable able to advertise outside the Rendezvous casino, but and problem gamblers, and it is certainly wrong that games cannot be played online inside it, even if one hitherto we have adopted such a laid-back attitude to takes in one’s own iPad or iPhone. Quite how we could gambling websites that we deem not to be properly stop people gambling on their own devices I do not regulated. To this end, the Bill’s proposal to subject know, but it would be much better to allow casinos to providers from beyond the UK and white-listed jurisdictions have gambling online within their own premises. That to UK regulation comes not a moment too soon. would bring it into the family that has greater protection In scrutinising the Bill, however, some questions arise. for problem gamblers and into the tax net. The current All online gambling providers seeking to access the UK position is ludicrous. market will be required to get a licence from the Gambling 165 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 166 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill [Jim Shannon] white-listed jurisdictions. If we do not do that, the unintended consequence of the Bill will be that British Commission before they can advertise their services, customers accessing the many providers currently based but there is no clarity on enforcement, and the claim in white-listed jurisdictions might actually enjoy fewer that the Bill protects the vulnerable will completely protections than they do now. disintegrate if companies without a licence are not Finally, even if the Bill is accompanied by proper prevented from accessing the UK market. If licensing is enforcement mechanisms preventing providers from beyond not backed up with an enforcement mechanism, the Bill the white list accessing the UK market, and even if we will simply result in an increase in online gambling ensure that the return of online gambling providers to advertising. Some online providers that currently have the UK does not erode protections by enhancing our access to the UK market but which cannot advertise regulatory regime with respect to care for problem here would be able to advertise, while those that cannot gamblers, the Bill will still result in an increase in advertise would be able to access the UK market on the advertising for online gambling in the UK. Although same basis as today. That is not the right step forward. online gambling is not associated with the highest problem I know the Bill gives the Secretary of State regulation- gambling prevalence figures, it does have one of the making powers, which could be used for enforcement higher figures for problem gambling. Unlike other gambling purposes, but if we are serious, as I believe the Government opportunities, it is available 24/7; one can access hundreds, are, about creating a progressive legislative framework if not thousands, of gambling websites without leaving that shows proper regard to the vulnerable, why not put one’s house or bedroom. enforcement mechanisms in the Bill to make it clear I and my constituency office are often confronted by from day one that if an online gambling provider from people with addictions, be it drink, drugs or gambling, outside the UK market wishes to access that market, it and I am aware of the illusion of the gambler when they must have a licence? It would be perfectly possible to make the gamble, their depression when it is not successful make that plain by amending the Bill to prevent such and their guilt when they realise they have spent money companies from accessing the UK by using financial they could not afford to spend. We cannot ignore the transaction blocking measures, which have proved successful vulnerable or problem gamblers. As online gambling in other countries that have gone down the same road. I providers not on the white list access advertising seek an assurance from the Minister, therefore, that the opportunities for the first time, the Bill will make people licensing regime will be backed up with a clear enforcement in the United Kingdom, including problem gamblers, mechanism that makes it absolutely clear, in the Bill, more aware of opportunities to gamble online. If the that if a company outside a white-listed jurisdiction House is to vote for measures designed to result in an does not have a licence, it will be prevented from accessing increase in online gambling in the UK, which is effectively the UK market by a financial transaction blocking what the advertising provisions propose, we should measure or similar mechanism. I look forward to her complement it with enhanced assistance for problem response. gamblers, who will face additional advertising challenges My concerns do not end there. Our current regulatory as a result of the Bill. framework incentivises online gambling providers located One mechanism developed to help problem gamblers in the UK to relocate to white-listed jurisdictions beyond is self-exclusion, which empowers a problem gambler the UK. The vast majority of UK-facing online gambling on “a strong day”—even on their strongest days, some providers have left the UK for nearby white-listed of those I have met are still not strong—to exclude jurisdictions, such as Alderney and Gibraltar, which are themselves from the services of a gambling provider for subject to a different regulatory regime and one that has a fixed period. Although in principle this is a good often exhibited greater regard for problem gamblers thing, in the context of online gambling it is useless: than the UK regulatory framework. My concern, therefore, there are so many online gambling providers—hundreds is that if we remove the incentive for gambling providers if not thousands—that it would be impossible to self-exclude to locate outside the UK, problem gamblers in the UK from them all. One answer to that dilemma has been will find many key providers less responsive to their proposed by academics, including Dr Sally Gainsbury, needs—unless, while removing the incentive, we also author of “Internet Gambling: Current Research Findings make our regulatory framework for problem gamblers and Implications”, published in 2012, in which she at least as robust as the best white-listed jurisdictions. states that “a significant limitation” of self exclusion The Minister might be tempted to say that licensing is “is the lack of collaboration between different online gambling sites and venues, so that excluded individuals may find it easy to a matter for the Gambling Commission, and of course gamble at another site or venue.” it is, but it is also a matter for the House, which created the commission when the current legal regime was Will the Minister indicate how we can address that introduced. We cannot, therefore, pretend that a significant issue? Again, she might say it is a matter for the Gambling change in that regime does not require us, the legislature, Commission, but again I would say: yes, but it is also a to review the capacity of the commission to deal with matter for the House, which created the commission the new challenges emanating from the Bill. I would like and established the legislative framework that the Bill a strong assurance that she will review the regulatory significantly amends. I believe that it would be appropriate regimes of white-listed jurisdictions—the regimes from for us to put in place a system that provides problem which British consumers of many online gambling services gamblers with a credible, meaningful, one-stop-shop have benefited in recent years—and the regard they self-exclusion mechanism. I should like to hear her show for problem gamblers and the vulnerable, and thoughts on that matter. ensure that when the Bill takes effect our regulatory I fear that, if the concerns that I have outlined are not regime will be made as sensitive to the needs of problem addressed, the effect of the Bill will simply be to allow gamblers as the regulatory regimes of the very best some people who cannot currently advertise in the UK 167 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 168 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill to advertise online gambling opportunities, and to erode the legislation might fall foul of European Union law the level of protection afforded to problem gamblers on by creating a restriction on trade between EU states, but the many sites accessed by the UK market. We must the Department’s response has been fairly robust, arguing seize the day and ensure that those things do not that the Bill is necessary and proportionate for enhancing happen. We must ensure that providers from beyond the consumer protection for British citizens. Our Committee white list who do not have a Gambling Commission was satisfied that the Government had considered the licence are prevented from accessing the UK market, question of compatibility, and we accepted their confidence and that the UK licensing regime is made at least as that any legal action would be unsuccessful. robust as those in the best white list jurisdictions, so The Remote Gambling Association has argued that that problem gamblers and vulnerable people can be the change in legislation will send punters to unregulated protected in the context of the increase in advertising sites on the black market where there is no regulatory through the provision of a one-stop-shop self-exclusion regime. That view has been backed up by the Gibraltar mechanism. Betting and Gaming Association, which has claimed that online gaming customers will migrate to unregulated 3.29 pm and non-compliant operators who have a significant market advantage over the regulated and compliant Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I am operators, resulting in completely the opposite of what delighted to have this opportunity to speak in favour of the Government are trying to achieve. That point was the Bill. It will go a long way towards creating a level raised by the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies). playing field for the onshore betting industry and towards reversing the trend of remote gambling companies setting I do not believe that that will be the case, however. up their businesses abroad to avoid the Gambling Jenny Williams, the chief executive of the Gambling Commission’s regulatory regime and to avoid paying Commission, has made it clear that there will be little tax on transactions in the UK. scope for significant expansion of the black market I pay tribute to the former sports Minister and my when there are already few restrictions on the type of parliamentary colleague on the Culture, Media and gambling available and when advertising is freely available Sport Committee, the hon. Member for Bradford South within the regulated market. The Department has also (Mr Sutcliffe) for recognising in April 2009 that changes made it clear that this is not about more restrictive would be required to keep up with the technological regulation; it is simply about consistent regulation. advances in online gambling. As a “Yorkshire United” The RGA has also claimed that this is all about tax. supporter, he might not know anything about football, In giving evidence to the Select Committee, it declared but it is fair to say that he knows a fair bit about that the provisions were a gambling, and he was a pretty good Minister in his time “backdoor method to tax off-shore operators”. in the Department. I also pay tribute to the fact that he took into consideration the arguments of my right hon. They are not, but that would certainly be a welcome Friend the Member for Bath (Mr Foster), who had been consequence—unintended or otherwise—of the Bill. arguing the case for reform throughout the whole of the Critics of the offshore remote gambling industry, and last Parliament. supporters of the Bill, legitimately point out that in many cases operators ended up as offshore remote As a result of the Bill, remote gambling will be gambling sites to avoid paying tax in the first place. The regulated at the point of consumption. All operators RGA told our Committee that about 7,000 people were selling into the British market, whether from here or working in the UK for remote gambling companies abroad, will be required to hold a Gambling Commission based offshore, but it could not answer my direct question licence, which will level the playing field for British-based about how many are working offshore. It effectively licence holders. The Bill will also repeal section 331 of admitted, however, that it was only a fraction of that the Gambling Act 2005, removing the offence of advertising number. Let us be honest: these companies are effectively foreign gambling and consequently the distinction between UK-based, barring certain technicalities, and they are white-list and EEA countries and non-EEA jurisdictions. based abroad only to avoid paying tax and to be able to Instead, in order to advertise to British consumers, all compete with their genuinely foreign-based competitors. operators will have to hold a GC remote licence, regardless of where they are based. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport is The changes will provide increased protection for adamant that this is not about taxation, but the legislation British consumers, because all remote gambling operators will have the good unintended consequence of paving will be subject to robust and consistent regulation, as the way to ensuring that foreign-based operators are well as being required to support action against illegal taxed on any gambling taking place in the UK. Our activity and corruption in sport, and to comply with Committee report got it right when it stated: licence conditions that protect children and vulnerable “Whether or not this is the case, we regard it as a legitimate adults. They will also be required to contribute to and desirable outcome of the change in the licensing regime that research, education and treatment in relation to British in future remote gambling companies doing business in the UK problem gambling. should be subject to the same taxation requirements, whether they are based onshore or offshore.” As the Chairman of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), pointed out, the Committee carried out pre-legislative Philip Davies: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman scrutiny of the Bill. It is perhaps not surprising that its for quoting so extensively from our Select Committee provisions have not been well received by either the report, but does he agree that we were very careful in remote gambling operators or the overseas regulators. our wording about what the Government were doing? The Remote Gambling Association has questioned whether We said that we were 169 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 170 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill [Philip Davies] the legitimate and well-run companies in bookmaking and to recognise the role they play in communities, in “satisfied that the Government has considered the compatibility charities and in helping to finance horse racing. of the proposed legislation with EU law and we note its confidence that any challenge to the legislation would be unlikely to succeed.” As has been said, the Bill is quite limited in scope. It does not deal with taxation and does not mention the We merely noted the Government’s confidence; we did levy. not necessarily share it. Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): My Mr Leech: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his helpful hon. Friend mentions taxation. Does he agree that the intervention. My impression from the evidence we took Treasury seems to be turning a deaf ear to the pleas of, was slightly different from his; perhaps I am a little for instance, those who play bingo, which is being taxed more confident about the Government’s potential for much more heavily than almost every other form of success if anyone in the industry decided to take further gambling? action. While the Bill has its opponents among the remote Mr Robertson: I shall have to accept my hon. Friend’s gambling industry, it also has its supporters within it. word on that, as I always do on everything. I have no Rank fully supports the Gambling Bill, even though it expertise in the taxation of bingo. paves the way for measures that it estimates will cost The Bill identifies what might be termed a loophole, approximately £10 million a year. It sees it as an important although it would be better described as an inconsistency. opportunity to provide greater consumer protection for Companies that locate some of their online business British gamblers. Similarly, the British Horseracing offshore are not regulated, taxed or subject to a levy. I Authority, the Sport and Recreation Alliance and the understand why that inconsistency worries a number of National Casino Industry Forum all welcome the Bill. people, and I am happy to go along with the proposal to The Bill is, however, limited in scope, and many create a level playing field. within the industry would have liked it to go further, As I have said, the Bill does not at this stage refer to a whether it be in relation to the horse racing betting levy, tax or a levy, although it was suggested earlier today, British terrestrial casinos being able to offer their dedicated probably by more than one speaker, that a recent European online products in their casino buildings, tackling the Union ruling was likely to give the Government an inequity of bingo taxation, which has not been mentioned opportunity to extend the levy to companies that are so far, or even addressing very legitimate concerns based offshore. That might well bring in more money about the proliferation of B2 machine use and its for horse racing, but I accept what was said by my hon. impact on problem gambling. I recognise that this Bill Friend the Member for Shipley. There have been some cannot address all those issues within its legislative estimates of how much money it would bring in, which scope, but perhaps the Minister will in her closing I think may have been exaggerated. remarks recognise that many other issues remain unresolved My hon. Friend was understandably concerned about and give some indication that the Government will seek the smaller bookmaking companies, but when it comes to address them. to the extra tax and the extra levy, I think we should be a little concerned about the larger ones as well, because 3.37 pm we are talking about a very highly taxed industry. As well as the ordinary corporation tax and other taxes Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): It has that apply to all businesses, it is subject to machine been a good debate with many powerful arguments games duty, and to the general betting tax and levy. being made. I am in favour of the general thrust of the Bill and its intentions, although like my hon. Friend Philip Davies: Should we not also recognise that the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), I believe that bookmakers are giving an increasing amount of money the reasons for introducing it go beyond regulation and to horse racing through picture rights, which is dwarfing consumer protection. I sat in some of the same meetings the amount raised by the levy? as my hon. Friend, when we debated potential levels of taxation, and he is right to say that the Bill is mainly Mr Robertson: The bookmakers give money to horse about providing the Government with the ability to racing through picture rights, through the levy, through tax—a point to which I will return. voluntary sponsorship of races and indeed through Let me state one or two non-declarable interests. I am hospitality. As my hon. Friend says, the amount of a joint chairman of the all-party group on racing and money they put into racing cannot measured just by the bloodstock, and the Cheltenham race course is in my levy, and we must be careful not to tax them too heavily. constituency. I have a deep interest in horse racing, Last week, during DCMS questions, a number of Members which is financed largely if not entirely through the levy attacked the so-called clustering and proliferation of that comes from bookmakers and from sponsorships betting shops. I pointed out that over the last 20 years that also come from bookmakers. Another non-declarable the number of betting shops has actually halved. I am interest is that through the all-party group, I organise not sure that that can accurately be described as charity dinners in this place, which are heavily supported proliferation. by bookmaking companies. The last one took place just The pressures on betting shops and bookmakers have a few months ago, and we raised £48,000 for charity. increased. As was mentioned earlier, the amount of Over the last five years—not entirely under my joint money that certain individual shops make is very small, chairmanship, as my predecessors should be included— and the number of independent bookmakers has been we have raised £234,000 for charities, and it has come reduced. Creating a level playing field should not mean largely from bookmakers. I thus want to pay tribute to heaping more tax on bookmakers. We should view the 171 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 172 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill position another way. Yes, we should be searching for and Sport Committee, the hon. Member for Maldon that level playing field, but the level could be a great (Mr Whittingdale), who has conducted inquiries into deal lower than it is at present. gambling, horse racing and betting. I was grateful for Rather than imposing a 15% tax on bookmakers who his comments on licence condition 15.1 and the issues are based offshore, should we not try to attract them relating to the Financial Conduct Authority, which are back onshore by reducing the overall burden of taxation, important and we will have to address. I hope the not just for those based abroad but for those in this Minister takes that on board. There are also important country? It would be rather perverse to impose a 5% tax issues related to match fixing and resources for the on those based in Gibraltar, for example, and a 15% tax Gambling Commission. on those based here. The levels should be compatible, Many Members have paid tribute to my hon. Friend but lower. I fear that imposing a 15% tax on bookmakers the Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) for his based in such places as Gibraltar would have a negative contribution over many years, both as a Minister and in effect. opposition. He is extremely well-informed and passionate I mentioned in an intervention that I have been to about these issues, and I commend his commitment to countries—I am not going to name them—where there education and treatment for people with gambling problems. is a tote monopoly and it is illegal to bet outside that He talked about the problems created by some aspects monopoly, and I have sat next to people as they have of the 2005 Act which were dealt with in the wash-up, had illegal bets. That is not a clever situation. It is not and rightly said they need to be addressed. He also something I was proud to witness, but it goes on. That is raised the issue of the definition of spread betting, and the real world. I hope the Minister takes that on board when considering We must be careful not to drive businesses from being any future amendments. He alone raised the issue of legitimate and based in Gibraltar, for example, to being money laundering and how it affects on-course betting based anywhere else in the world and taking bets from operators. this country, completely unregulated and without paying The hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) is always a penny in tax or levy. That would be the complete fascinating to listen to. Even if we do not agree with opposite of what the Government are trying to achieve. everything he says, he makes his points eloquently. He There would be no protection for consumers, and we described himself as modest and of course, that is a know the internet is notoriously difficult to regulate. word we all immediately think of when we think of him. That is no fault of this or the previous Government; it is He expressed his concerns about taxation levels and his just what has happened. desire that online operators locate back in the UK. I A few years ago a company called Betfair stole was struck by his passionate appeal for recognition of a march on the entire betting industry by creating a the contribution that small companies make—particularly betting exchange business. It was hugely successful, and in innovation and the number of people they employ in Betfair puts a lot of money into racing, but that move this country—and the effect that overtaxing them will took the entire country and industry by surprise. Nobody have, particularly when they are developing in their knew how to compete with or respond to it. That is the early stages of trading. That is an important point and way of the world, however. That is the way things are the Government should take it on board. He also going. showed a healthy scepticism for civil servants who are That is the way things have gone in this House, too. empire building, which we all share. It is not fair to When I arrived here 16 years ago, there were no such accuse the Gambling Commission of that in this case, things as iPads. Now, they can be used in Committees, given that there is such widespread support for what we and some Committees have even gone paperless: papers are trying to achieve in the Bill. are not circulated and instead they use the iPad, which links into the internet. Things have changed, and we My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme do not know how they will change over the next five or (Paul Farrelly) made a passionate case for companies 10 years. It is difficult to regulate what goes on via the relocating to the UK, and highlighted the fact that internet, and we should not pretend that we can. We bet365 has not been disadvantaged by remaining onshore. have to ensure that we do not inadvertently, through He pointed out that it has made a significant contribution well-intentioned measures, make the situation worse. to regeneration in his area, employing more than 2,000 people. It is the largest employer in north Staffordshire, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am aware that you are anxious and I believe he said that it achieved a profit of £180 million. to get on to the next debate so I will not say any more. I He also called for sanctions to deal with those providing entirely agree with many of the points made today, and facilities for those who are avoiding the licensing system. I do not want to repeat them. I am basically in favour of Effective enforcement is something we will want to the Bill and a level playing field for taxation, levy, pursue in considering this Bill. He also referred to the regulation and customer protection. But as the Bill importance of getting taxation right. proceeds, I urge the Minister and the Government to ensure that we do not inadvertently make the situation The hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms), like a number worse. of other Members, expressed disappointment at how narrowly drawn the Bill is. He, too, referred to regeneration and casinos. My hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn 3.47 pm (Chris Evans), the son of a bookmaker, expressed concern, Clive Efford: As always when we discuss issues relating as one or two other Members did, about people criticising to betting and horse racing, this has been a good debate. the proliferation of betting shops. I wish to put on the It has also been very informative, as Members with a record that I have never criticised such proliferation. great deal of knowledge of the subject have contributed. There are not more betting shops following the 2005 I pay tribute to the Chairman of the Culture, Media Act, but there is concern about the locating of betting 173 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 174 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill [Clive Efford] 3.55 pm shops close to areas of deprivation. Even the betting Mrs Grant: With the leave of the House, I thank all industry has recognised that that is an issue, and if we Members who have taken part in the debate. I shall try are going to deal with it, local government should be to remember everything that has been asked and to deal able— with as many of the questions as possible. I am glad to see that the Bill has support on both sides of the House and that most hon. Members are in favour of bringing Mr Laurence Robertson: Will the hon. Gentleman in robust and consistent regulation of remote gambling. give way? Through the Bill, remote gambling will be regulated at the point of consumption. That will mean that all Clive Efford: I will not, if the hon. Gentleman does operators selling or advertising in the British market, not mind, because I have been given only a few minutes whether from here or abroad, will be required to hold a to wind up. Local government should be given the Gambling Commission licence. The Bill will increase powers to review whether there are too many betting protection for Britain-based consumers and will level shops in a given area. My hon. Friend the Member for the regulatory playing field with all remote operators, Islwyn, too, expressed concern about the impact of allowing British-based operators to compete on an equal taxation on the industry. footing. The hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Eltham (James Duddridge) spoke about the capacity for casinos (Clive Efford), raised a great number of issues in his to contribute to regeneration. He also talked about the opening speech, including the levy, fixed odds betting need to protect online customers who may have a gambling terminals, enforcement and compliance. I will touch on addiction, as did the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim all those issues in my speech, subject to the time available. Shannon), who made a passionate plea for effective I can confirm that we continue to engage and consult enforcement and protection from exploitation of vulnerable with the industry, as does the Gambling Commission, adults. to ensure that issues of detail are dealt with very carefully. Of course, in Committee we will have an evidence The hon. Member for Manchester, Withington sitting followed by a scrutiny sitting, which should deal (Mr Leech) largely spoke about the importance of the with any clarification that he needs. Select Committee report, but he also called for a level playing field in the industry. The hon. Member for We will not accept an amendment on spread betting. Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), too, expressed concern The current arrangements work well, with the FCA and about the taxation of the industry and the impact it the Gambling Commission working closely together. may have on small businesses, in particular, which might They are also working with operators that offer spread be harmed if taxes are set too high. He also referred to betting to ensure that suspicious betting behaviour is the clustering of betting shops, which I have mentioned. reported to regulators and that licence code 15.1 is adhered to. Many hon. Members have called for the Bill to be extended in relation to enforcement protection, particularly The hon. Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe), for adults at risk of developing, or with, a gambling the shadow Minister, my hon. Friends the Members for addiction. Some hon. Members also called for a one-stop Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) shop for self-exclusion across the industry, which is an and many other hon. Members asked about horse race important factor that we should be looking at, as this is betting levy. I understand why the issue has been raised, an opportunity for us to set a standard by which we can but the Bill cannot be the vehicle for other measures protect vulnerable adults. that have been neither fully considered nor consulted on. I also want to consider the question of levy reform A number of hon. Members called for spread betting more broadly as there might be other options that regulation, and I hope that the Government will listen should be considered and there should be proper and that there will be sports betting rights for those consultation before any measures are put in place. I will sports that have to pay out much of the money that they consult on any options that are sustainable, enforceable generate for themselves so that they can protect their and legally sound. integrity when it is challenged by irregular activities in My hon. Friend the Member for Maldon the betting industry. We must have regard to the concerns (Mr Whittingdale), the hon. Member for Bradford South, that those sports organisations have, and I hope that the my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms), the Minister will consider consulting the governing bodies hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) to consider what can be done in the Bill to address their and my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and concerns. Southend East (James Duddridge) all raised issues about Whenever we discuss such matters, the debate is online gambling or the lack of it in casinos. The suggested always extremely well-informed because the hon. Members change in the Government’s position that has been who contribute have a great deal of background knowledge. mooted would undermine existing regulatory controls I hope that the Minister has been listening to what has on gaming machine provisions. It would also allow been said today and to the calls for further amendment casinos to offer an unlimited number of gaming machines to the Bill so that we can reach a broad consensus on with unlimited stakes and prizes within their premises. both sides of the House that will allow us to develop a The Government see no reason why such machines regulation system for the gambling industry in the UK should be offered on an unlimited basis in casinos, that has the full support not only of Members of this when all other categories of gaming machine remain House but of the people we represent and that sets the subject to control. That would risk fundamentally changing standard for regulation across the world. the character of casinos and, very sadly, turning them 175 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Gambling (Licensing and 176 Advertising) Bill Advertising) Bill into something that looks like a machine shed. There are confident that action can be taken through existing may be a case to consider greater flexibility in casino enforcement mechanisms to disrupt and stop unlawful regulation, as I mentioned in my opening speech, but gambling. Such action would include action on illegal that would need to be subject to proper impact assessment advertising, player education and, ultimately and if and consultation, and the Bill is not, in my opinion, the necessary, prosecution. There will always, of course, be appropriate vehicle at this stage to change casino policy. grey areas where judgments of risk and proportionality The subject of problem gambling was rightly raised will need to be made in each individual case. by numerous Members today, including the hon. Member The hon. Member for Bradford South, the former for Bradford South, my hon. Friend the Member for Sports Minister, who knows a considerable amount Rochford and Southend East and the hon. Member for about these matters, rightly mentioned sports betting Strangford (Jim Shannon). I would say to them that integrity and cheating. Britain is proud to lead the way despite the relatively low rates of problem gambling, in approaches to sports betting and integrity. However, there are obviously very high participation rates for we do not believe that there is a need at this stage to gambling, at around 73%. The Gambling Commission introduce in this country a new criminal offence of 2010 prevalence survey showed that fewer than 1% of match-fixing. We believe that existing law and sports the adult population are problem gamblers, but the rules are sufficient, but we will keep the matter carefully Government acknowledge that while only a very small under review. fraction of gamblers develop problems, that can of My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley asked whether course result in significant problems, not just for those software producers need to be licensed. The Gambling people but for those close to them. That is why protecting Commission is working with the industry on the issue. children and vulnerable adults from harm is a key In the meantime overseas software suppliers will be able component of our remote gambling policy. The Bill to continue to supply British licensees. would require operators to have effective policies and procedures in place in relation to socially responsible I thank the hon. Member for Islwyn for his kind gambling, and to contribute to research, education and comments and reassure him that I do sports other than treatment in relation to problem gambling, as part of tennis. He asked me for two assurances—first, that the complying with the Gambling Commission licence Gambling Commission will take action and has capacity conditions. to stop illegal betting effectively, and secondly, that the tax rate is not set too high. On the first issue, the Lady Hermon: Will the Minister give way? commission will fully implement its regulatory responsibilities in line with the requirements of the Bill, Mrs Grant: I am afraid I will not, because I have very and I will continue to discuss with the commission its limited time and still have an awful lot to say. needs to ensure that it has the necessary capacity, resources and expertise. On the second issue, as I have already The level of taxation was discussed by many hon. said, tax rates are a matter for the Treasury and I will Members, including my hon. Friends the Members for not venture this afternoon on to its turf. Maldon and for Shipley, the hon. Members for Newcastle- under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly) and for Islwyn (Chris Evans) The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and my hon. Friend the Member for Poole, to name queried whether the Bill would be enforced by ISP but a few. The remote gambling Bill and the blocking or something similar. There is mixed evidence Treasury’s remote gambling taxation reforms are, while on the effectiveness of ISP blocking, but we do not rule complementary, completely independent of each other anything out. and we absolutely reject the assertion that the licensing Finally, on the matter of fixed-odds betting terminals, reforms are being pursued in order to generate tax which was mentioned by several hon. Members today, income. The Bill includes, as Members know, no provision although we have decided not to reduce stakes and for the increasing of tax. Reform is entirely justified on prizes on these machines at this stage, it is a priority for its own merits for public participation and public protection the Government that we develop a much better reasons, regardless of the state of any tax plans. understanding of the impact of these machines, and On black and grey markets, I apologise to my hon. further work is already under way. The research being Friend the Member for Shipley if I did not answer his conducted by the Responsible Gambling Trust into question fully earlier, but I can now say that I am category B machines is very important and it would be confident that the Gambling Commission has the necessary wrong to pre-empt this work. Furthermore, we believe tools to enforce the licence requirements and to deter that the Bill is not the right legislative vehicle to deal illegality and black-market activity. It is not meaningful with such difficult issues. to try to speculate about the size of the black market, In conclusion, this is a small but important Bill that which by its nature is unknown. Whatever the size of will increase protection for remote gambling consumers any black market, the Gambling Commission will make based in Britain. It is not empire-building by the Gambling risk-based decisions on when and where it may need to Commission, as was suggested by my hon. Friend the intervene. Member for Shipley. It is about protection and proper Finally, on the extent of the tax, it will be no surprise oversight and it will ensure that all remote gambling, to learn that I am telling the House that tax is a matter wherever the operator is based, is licensed by the Gambling for the Treasury, which I know continually keeps these Commission and subject to that body’s robust and matters well under review. consistent standards of controls. I look forward to debating these issue in Committee, and I commend the On enforcement and compliance, I assure the shadow Bill to the House. Minister and all the hon. Members who raised the issue that where illegal operators attempt to target British-based Question put and agreed to. consumers, the Government and the Gambling Commission Bill accordingly read a Second time. 177 Gambling (Licensing and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 178 Advertising) Bill GAMBLING (LICENSING AND ADVERTISING) BILL (PROGRAMME) Backbench Business Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)), Water Industry That the following provisions shall apply to the Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill: 4.8 pm Committal (1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I beg to move, Proceedings in Public Bill Committee That this House has considered reform and infrastructure of the water industry and consumers’ bills. (2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall be completed on the first day on which it shall meet. I move the motion also in the names of my hon. (3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on Friends the Members for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) that day. and for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith). I thank the Consideration and Third Reading Backbench Business Committee for allowing time for (4) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously this debate. The subject has been in the news recently, so concluded) be brought to a conclusion two hours after the the debate is timely, and it is positive that the House commencement of those proceedings. should have the chance to consider the issues in relation (5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously to the water industry and what reforms, if any, ought to concluded) be brought to a conclusion three hours after the be introduced. commencement of proceedings on Consideration. (6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Before my not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading. hon. Friend starts his main remarks I would like to pay Other proceedings tribute to him for his work in leading the debate since (7) Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings early this year and for securing this debate and, hopefully, on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages some exciting announcements from the Government. from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Karen Bradley.) Question agreed to. Charlie Elphicke: I thank my hon. Friend for his customary generosity. I will turn to the pressures that hard-working families GAMBLING (LICENSING AND ADVERTISING) are facing as we come out of a very difficult economic BILL (WAYS AND MEANS) time for our country. The fact is that most people do not Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing particularly care about politics. They vote us in every Order No. 52(1)(A)), few years and decide the Government of the day, but That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Gambling they do not consider politics on a daily basis; they (Licensing and Advertising) Bill, it is expedient to authorise an consider how they are going to keep the wolf from the extension of the cases in which: door. They consider how they are going to get through (1) a penalty may be imposed under section 121 of the Gambling the day, provide for themselves, their families and loved Act 2005, and ones, raise their children, manage to pay their bills and (2) a levy may be imposed under section 123 of that Act.—(Karen get a better paid job. The Government have been very Bradley.) effective in ensuring that there is more employment and Question agreed to. a return to economic growth, from rescue to recovery and onward to greater economic strength for our country. Part of keeping the wolf from the door is dealing with the utility bills that cost all our constituents so much money. That is why water reform matters. People do not really have a choice, because there is not much competition. It is a natural monopoly and people have to pay their water bills. There is an opportunity to foster more competition and ensure that the industry is more effectively regulated than it has been. For many years nothing was done to keep on top of the water industry, particularly before this Government were elected. Now we have an opportunity to make further changes and look more closely at what the issues are and what might be done. Before the Government were elected, there was a settlement with Ofwat and the water industry that was to last for five years. The assumptions on which the settlement was made have since altered. Retail prices index inflation has risen more quickly than it was expected that construction inflation would rise, and interest rates have been lower than expected. The result has been excess profits for the industry. Ofwat figures highlight a return on regulated equity in excess of 20% in some cases. Investment was allowed to fall in real terms after 2007, while customer bills have risen by 179 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 180 more than inflation. Dividend payments are often greater Andrew Percy: I congratulate my hon. Friend on than the profits made, which some would say is particularly securing this debate. We have heard a lot about people unattractive. having problems with a shortage of water. In my constituency, which is very low-lying and where we rely Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I, on significant pumping capacity to keep us dry, the too, pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work he has problem has been the other way round: we have had too done to bring the issue to light. In relation to bills and much water. While our water companies have been affordability, does he agree that it is completely and making big profits, we have not been getting the investment utterly unacceptable that bills have risen by 60% over in keeping us dry, let alone in ensuring we have enough the past 10 years, which clearly shows that the previous drinking water. Government did absolutely nothing to help the consumer? Charlie Elphicke: That is true. In some parts of the Charlie Elphicke: I thank my hon. Friend for that country we have too much water and in some parts too intervention. Certainly a better deal needs to be driven little. I am sure that at some point someone will raise for the consumer than was driven by the previous the need to move water from one place where there is Government. They also permitted a culture of industrial- too much of it to another place where there may be too scale tax avoidance, which was wrong. little of it.

Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): I, too, Mr Walker: We do not need to move water around congratulate my hon. Friend on all his fine work on the from one place to another; we need to build more water industry. Would he care to comment on the fact reservoirs such as the Abingdon reservoir, which was that we have seen a 60% rise in water bills yet still face spade-ready and then the plug was pulled, if my hon. rather serious and sporadic water shortages? Is it not Friend will forgive the pun. We need to build more true that the public have really seen no return for their reservoirs, not waste money transporting water around higher bills? the country.

Charlie Elphicke: My hon. Friend makes a powerful Charlie Elphicke: My hon. Friend is a passionate point. Ensuring that we have investment in the infrastructure advocate for more reservoirs. Reservoirs are not only that the country needs is really important. important for water storage; they are important places for the angling community. Many hon. Members here Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): In are passionate anglers who enjoy fishing, and reservoirs view of the hon. Gentleman’s commitment to the issue, provide an opportunity for that pursuit. I hope that he will confirm that the only time there have been reductions in water charges was under the previous Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I am glad Labour Government. that my hon. Friend is going to talk about the need for competition to provide better quality and low prices, Charlie Elphicke rose— but why does he think that there is a natural monopoly? Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Then they Surely anyone, under a suitably liberated regime, could went back up again. build a reservoir or drill a borehole and provide their water to the customer through a piped system. Charlie Elphicke: Then they went back up again, as my hon. Friend remarks. Under the previous Government Charlie Elphicke: My right hon. Friend makes an the water industry was allowed to become 100% mortgaged interesting point. The planning system obviously means to make the tax avoidance work. There have been that such things take time. It is certainly important to excessive pay rises in the boardroom at a time when have more of a national planning framework, which has hard-working families have not seen substantial pay been discussed by some and is worth considering. The rises. That has been very hard to justify and people look view of water professionals is that competition is important askance at that. but, in terms of customer service, it does not necessarily reduce costs because the infrastructure represents about Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): My hon. 90% of the cost base. Friend wisely talks about infrastructure. One of my concerns regarding the east and south-east of England Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con): My hon. Friend is that water companies have been extracting water to will be aware that the Water Bill will make it easy for the detriment of our rivers and not building reservoirs. new entrants to do precisely what my right hon. Friend Indeed, the last major reservoir in the south-east—the the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) suggested, Queen Mother—was built 40 years ago. In the meantime, by giving them access to a market that is currently millions more houses have been built, placing more denied them so that they can provide these infrastructure pressure on a valuable resource that tends to come out assets. of the aquifers in the ground. Charlie Elphicke: Indeed. That will be an important Charlie Elphicke: My hon. Friend makes exactly the reform. right point. In my constituency, in Dover and Deal in Let me move on to the reforms that are worth east Kent, we depend on the aquifers. There is water considering. First, we must consider whether it is possible abstraction and water stress, and compulsory metering to tackle the excess profits and excess returns seen over has been in place for some time. We need to look more the last period and return that money to hard-working closely at the national planning and national infrastructure families in the next period, and to drive a fair and planning aspect, which I am sure hon. Members will equitable settlement whereby investors can get appropriate raise. returns but customers can get a better deal. 181 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 182

Rehman Chishti: One of the key problems is that revisit the settlement on an ongoing basis.” If it had constituents at the bottom end of the income scale have those powers, it would be able to have a stronger over many years incurred a debt as a result of high conversation with the water industry. That is worth water bills. Given the big profits made by these companies, considering. It would also be worth looking at allowing surely they have a moral responsibility to help those Ofwat to give guidance to the water industry on appropriate people at the bottom end with the debts they have and responsible corporate governance. incurred. George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): I am grateful Charlie Elphicke: My hon. Friend makes an important to my hon. Friend for giving way; he is being extremely point, but I will leave it to my hon. Friend the Member generous with his time. Does not Ofwat potentially for South Swindon, who has been studying those issues suffer from perverse incentives? We know that it does with considerable care and concern. not matter how cheap water is; if there is none, we need Secondly, there is the question of how we tackle tax infrastructure to be built. If Ofwat has a primary duty avoidance. The unacceptable, even antisocial, tax avoidance to ensure best value for customers—which, of course, it culture in the water industry has meant that many must—it is almost certain to find it very difficult over companies have not paid tax for years. It is wrong that time to allow infrastructure development that will help that situation has arisen. Everyone should pay their fair our resilience. Is not that a problem we need to address? share. We need sustainable debt, not 100% mortgages. Charlie Elphicke: Very much so. I and, I am sure, Under the previous settlement, these water companies many other Members would argue that Ofwat should have been allowed to become casinos. We have an have a stronger role as a consumer champion, but that opportunity to look carefully at that to see whether the ought to be done within the framework of the national position is safe, secure and sustainable for the future. infrastructure we need. My hon. Friend makes a powerful point and I hope he will explore it further during this Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I am glad that debate. the hon. Gentleman has pointed out some of the problems in the industry and with the behaviour of the water Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): Although, companies. All of the companies working on an industrial clearly, much more needs to be done in the industry to estate in Formby in my constituency have been overcharged ensure a better balance of risk between the shareholders for years and the water company has been allowed to and the taxpayer, the Government have taken some get away with not repaying them because of the way in steps to help in the south-west and we now have a which the regulations are set up. Does the hon. Gentleman significant £40 million pot from which individual local agree that that is the type of unacceptable practice that consumers get £50 each off their bills. Does my hon. needs to be tackled? Friend agree that the regulators at Ofwat and the Government need to ensure that that is delivered to all Charlie Elphicke: Clearly, the billing system needs to residents in the south-west? At present, those who receive be fair. benefit through intermediaries—park home owners, for The issue about debt is that water companies are example—do not get that benefit and it cannot be often leveraged to 100% and then say that they cannot enforced. Does my hon. Friend agree that that needs fund infrastructure improvements. Many colleagues have fixing? concerns about the Thames tideway tunnel and how that is financed. I am sure that will be explored in due Charlie Elphicke: My hon. Friend makes a powerful course. point, which Ministers will no doubt take on board. We also need more appropriate investment. If real This Government have been great in driving a better investment falls, where is the justification to increase deal on water for people in the south-west, and they bills? We need to ensure that real investment does not deserve credit for that. fall, that we maintain the investment we need and that it On potential reforms under the Bill, we need to is funded in an appropriate way. consider the extent to which Ofwat needs new powers and whether the Government should include appropriate Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I am grateful to my provisions. Those are important questions. hon. Friend for mentioning the tideway tunnel, because The previous Labour Government mismanaged the my constituents in Wycombe want to avoid having to economy and took Britain to the brink. It was not just pay for it, particularly given that Wycombe faces its the economy they mismanaged; they left a toxic legacy own problems with its sewerage systems. I hope my hon. of mismanagement in our utility industries, making life Friend will explain how he sees choice and competition difficult for hard-working families. I welcome the fact liberating people from having to pay for inadequate that the Government are looking at water reform and I services. wish them well.

Charlie Elphicke: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. Time denies me the opportunity to go into the 4.24 pm issue in great detail, but I know that my hon. Friend the Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): I Member for South Swindon has been looking at it with congratulate the Members who secured this welcome considerable concern, because his constituency, like that debate. of my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Until recently, there had been a general consensus Baker), is in the Thames sewerage area. that the privatised water industry was a success. That We need to look at how we can beef up Ofwat and was a consensus to which I never subscribed, whether in give it greater powers in the Water Bill to say, “There’s government or in opposition. It is far from being a been a favourable adjustment, so we can adjust and success. 183 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 184

We must not allow the water industry to get away Frank Dobson: In 1995, 826 million gallons of water with all sorts of technical explanations for why it cannot per day were leaking out of the water companies’ pipes. do its job properly and reasonably cheaply, because it According to my calculations, that is 3,755 million litres has a simple task. It gets its raw material free: it is called per day. The companies now proudly proclaim that they rain. It collects the rainwater and pumps it along pipes are dealing with the leaks. They have got the figure to its customers. It then charges them for using the down to the apparently minuscule 2,910 million litres water. per day. Once they had to admit they were getting it wrong, we could see that it was a farcical record. Frankly, Mr Charles Walker: That is exactly the problem. Our they simply deserve—I do not know; perhaps total water companies are lousy at collecting water. When it abuse is the word—for their failure, and so does the is at its most abundant, they wave it down the rivers into system that regulates them, and the Ministers and civil the sea. That is why they need to be building more servants who are also involved. reservoirs. I am sorry to labour the point, but they are During the recent period water companies have increased not collecting the water. charges; under the Labour Government charges went down at first then gradually crept up again. One thing Frank Dobson: The next word in my notes is “reservoirs”. that has not gone down, of course, is the huge dividends Every substantial reservoir that the water companies that the water companies have been paying. Since use was built when the industry was in the public sector. privatisation, they have paid out £37 billion in dividends. The private sector has not increased reservoir capacity As the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) in this country since privatisation in 1989-90. pointed out, that is 21% of gross value added compared with comparable parts of the private non-financial sector, Alec Shelbrooke: I stand to be corrected, but I understand which come in at about 11% of gross value added. that only 1% of rainfall is captured for domestic use. I Look at the figures for individual water companies: wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman has found Severn Trent Water has paid £6.2 billion in dividends; that during his research. Thames Water has paid out £6.3 billion; United Utilities in the north-west paid out £7.3 billion; and Anglian Frank Dobson: God knows; it would depend on when, Water has paid out £6 billion. Then there is tax avoidance if the hon. Gentleman sees what I mean. and, as the hon. Member for Dover pointed out, a large The bulk of the reservoir capacity and the pipework amount of that is the product of manipulation of the was provided when big cities such as Birmingham, companies’borrowing, to the infinite benefit of their foreign Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds and the Metropolitan owners in particular, more so than to their British Water Board in London were trying to look after the owners. interests of the people of their areas. They created the Then there is the bosses’ pay. Some of them are being reservoirs and laid the pipes. paid more than £1 million a year for collecting rainwater During the arguments about the privatisation of the and sending it down a pipe. I understand the Health water industry, I received a letter in beautiful copperplate Secretary suggested that some managers in the national handwriting from an ancient ex-councillor in Sheffield. health service might be overpaid. It may be the case that He said, “All the people at Yorkshire Water are doing is some are, but let us consider Leeds Teaching Hospitals collecting water in reservoirs we built and sending it NHS Trust, for example—two teaching hospitals, along pipes we laid. I speak as the former chairman of 12,000 staff and 1,200 doctors to manage. I do not the water committee in Sheffield.” He pointed out that think anybody in the world would think that the person while the chief executive of Yorkshire Water was getting responsible for managing that, who gets about £250,000 several hundred thousand pounds a year, when he had a year, does not have a rather more complex task than been responsible for it he had been paid “nowt” and the someone who collects rainwater and sends it down a job had been done properly, whereas it had not been pipe. We must get some sense of proportion. done properly ever since. Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) Mr Redwood: Does the right hon. Gentleman concede (SNP): Has the right hon. Gentleman made any assessment that the pipe network that the nationalised industry put of the effect on bills if there were not the excesses of in was riddled with holes by the time the private sector bonuses, payments and dividends that he detailed earlier? took over? More than 25% of the water was being lost en route and the private sector has been renewing the Frank Dobson: I cannot really do that as I have only pipes. just come back to looking at the water industry from the time when I tried to make life difficult for it, with Frank Dobson: That is certainly true. Until 1995, some success. “Hammer the customers for the profiteers” Ministers from all parties accepted the statement by the is the motto of the water industry. We have higher water industry that the bulk of the water that leaked out charges, and now water companies want to install of the system leaked out of customers’ pipes. It took a compulsory water meters everywhere. That is basically lot of effort from me and somebody who was working their policy, and a lot of people who I think ought to for me at the time to finally reveal that that was nothing know better have been going along with that. short of a lie. It was not that the Ministers were lying; It costs about £250 to supply and install a water they were being provided with lies by the water industry. meter, and they have about 15 years of life before the I have had the figure changed into fashionable litres grit and impurities in the water make them not do their now. job accurately. If it is a smart meter I understand that the situation is even worse. It costs about £50 to install a Andrew Percy: What was it in gallons? new meter if one has previously been installed. I think 185 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 186

[Frank Dobson] Frank Dobson: It is no good me saying that the previous Government’s record was as good as it ought there are more than 10 million unmetered households, to have been—I will not pretend that it was. so at £250 a throw—according to my calculations—that Another thing is that, over the years, charges for is £2.5 billion. Does anybody think that investing in water have risen at twice the average of price rises for water meters is the best way of spending £2.5 billion? everything else. There can be no possible justification Even if they do, I certainly do not. for that. What sickens customers are the water industry’s Another thing is that, as soon as anything goes byzantine financial arrangements and how it is an outpost wrong, the companies come rushing to the taxpayer to of the tax avoidance industry. Nobody appears to bail them out. South West Water could not cope with understand this. Ofwat, successive civil servants and the problems it faced, particularly its sewerage problems successive Ministers do not appear to have understood and ended up getting a leg-up from the taxpayer. what is going on. I am not excusing anybody: I have no faith in the continuation of the existing system. The George Hollingbery: I read one or two historical industry continues to be run for the benefit of companies, documents on water management before I came to the company bosses and shareholders. If it is to be run Chamber. I believe I am right in saying that the previous properly from an environmental, security of water supply Labour Government’s policy was for universal water and cost point of view, it is essential, before changes are metering—the policy statement was made in 2008. Is made, to subject the industry to freedom of information, that correct? so that troublemaking pressure groups and individuals can get to work on the figures in a way that Ofwat and Frank Dobson: That might be the case, but the statement the Department are clearly incapable of doing. was not made in my name, put it that way. When I was I have a more advanced view of what should be done: responsible for water in opposition, I was opposed to we should follow recent examples from Germany. Berlin metering. I remained opposed to it when Labour was in decided to bring the control and operation of its water government and continue to be opposed to it. supply back under the ownership of the people of South West Water is not the only one. Thames Water Berlin, and the people of Hamburg voted in a referendum had sewage and run-off problems and came up with a to bring its electricity supply back under the control great £4 billion scheme. Because of how it finances and ownership of the people of Hamburg. That almost itself, it could not finance the scheme, despite paying happened in Berlin, but the necessary turnout was not £6 billion in dividends over the years. The only way in quite achieved. I propose a trial run in London. We which it can proceed is by Government guarantee. It is could give the people of London a referendum to ask, therefore not really privatised; it is a dependency of the “Do you want to take over, and bring back under the Treasury. ownership of something similar to the Metropolitan Water Board, your water industry?” That would be Rehman Chishti: The right hon. Gentleman says that popular with the public: at the weekend, an opinion poll the previous policy was not in his name. Does his party showed that 69% of the population wanted the energy leader have his support for his current policy on water? industry to go back into public ownership. Is so, what is his party leader’s policy? Mr Redwood: The right hon. Gentleman has just Frank Dobson: My understanding is that the party’s criticised spending £2.5 billion on water meters as a policy—no doubt it will be enunciated in due course luxury we cannot afford. How much would it cost to from the Front Bench—is that the current situation is buy companies back into public ownership, and why unsatisfactory, and that we need a dramatic change in would it be a good investment? the powers and functions of the regulator. No Government Member would think there is anything wrong with that Frank Dobson: These industries are pleading poverty proposal. all the time, so it would not be all that expensive. The Where is all that customers’ money going? In the case cost could be paid out over a very long period, which is of Thames Water, it is being paid out to shareholders in what happened when industries were brought into public Australia and China. Prior to that, it was paid out to ownership in the 1940s and early 1950s. shareholders in Germany. People talk about the wonders Most people are sick to death of what is going on. of the City of London as a financial centre, but I They have no faith in Ofwat, officials at the Department wonder why, in such a great financial centre, one or two or Ministers. I share their lack of faith and until we put of the people with all the money have not thought of forward some aggressive propositions nothing will change getting together to own the water supply for their own to the advantage of the people we try to represent. city. Apparently, that has not occurred to them. Thirty per cent. of the average water bill goes to 4.43 pm profits. Even the energy industry uses only 9% of charges as profit, but the water industry uses 30%—30% of Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con): It is a great pleasure every penny and pound that people pay goes off in to take part in a debate from the Back Benches for the profits, which, to say the least, is a remarkable return first time in a few years. This is an important subject on investment. and I apologise to those on both Front Benches for not being able to be here for the winding-up speeches, as I Charlie Elphicke: The percentage is not that high. have a long-standing engagement that I have to attend. Nevertheless, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that I welcome the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, the previous Government allowed an inappropriate Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member settlement that should not have been agreed? for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) to his post. I told 187 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 188 him in the Lobby the other night that I had three and a sector. I am not affronted. I welcome it. It is the sign of half years to get my head around the water industry. He a vibrant industry and one that we need to encourage. has three and a half weeks before the Water Bill comes We need more investment if we are to deal with some of before the House, but he is a clever fellow and I am sure the Victorian—at least Edwardian—infrastructure we he will be more than a match for the job. are trying to replace. Under a nationalised industry, I hope this debate does not over-emphasise the negative directors of water boards would sit outside the Treasury and allows us to take a little pride, at least on the saying, “Please can we have some more money for Conservative Benches, in what has been achieved in the investment?” Down the ages, Chancellors have said, water industry. I thought the only voice, upon deep “Certainly. Just get in the queue behind the NHS, consideration, really talking about renationalisation was pensioners and the welfare state, and if there are any dear old Len McCluskey—I sometimes wonder whether scraps left, we will give them to you.” he is a stooge of Conservative central office—but I now We have seen an historic level of investment— see that there are others: it is a great pleasure to follow £116 billion—and we want to see more. We also want to the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras ensure that we keep the bills as low as possible. Supplying (Frank Dobson). I take great pride, however, in what all the water that goes into households and treating all was achieved by privatisation through good, strong the sewage that comes out costs households an average political leadership. My right hon. Friend the Member of £1 a day, although I accept that there are wide for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) was part of the intellectual discrepancies in price. As a percentage of our household force behind privatisation. With people such as Nicholas expenditure, that might be quite small compared with Ridley and others, he led the debate—with, I have to energy costs and other items, but it is still a significant say, the support of about 8% of the population. However, amount, and those in the lowest income decile in this they drove though something that has delivered for country are, broadly speaking, in water poverty. We customers. Twenty-two years down the road, I am the need to address that. There are huge challenges facing first to agree with my hon. Friends, and probably all the industry, and I hope the Water Bill and the ongoing Members, that the industry is long overdue a tweaking—in activities in the sector will tackle them. fact, more than a tweaking; a serious reform—but I The challenges include continuing to ensure investment shall explain later why I think the Government are to deal with leakage and other concerns, such as those getting it right and the part the House can play to expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne protect the incomes of our householders, particularly (Mr Walker), and to ensure that new infrastructure is those on low incomes. built. We must also address the challenges of affordability Jonson Cox, the chairman of Ofwat, came into my and the credibility of the industry among its customers. office shortly after his appointment and said he was An important matter for our constituents is that the keen to ensure that the industry took more notice of companies address the question of resilience. They must customers’ needs. To summarise, I said: “Good. That is be able to keep the water flowing from the taps in a time precisely what the Government hope you will do in this of changing climate. price review—more power to your elbow—but we want In my short tenure as Minister with responsibility for you to do much more. We want you not only to keep these matters, I saw the worst drought for decades. We household bills down, but to keep investment up and are the sixth largest economy in the world, but if we had ensure that water companies play their part in improving had a third dry winter, towns in some of the most the environment.”We must accept, however, that sometimes economically vibrant parts of the country would have those three things conflict. faced the very real prospect of standpipes. That is unacceptable in this day and age. Large national events Frank Dobson: When the hon. Gentleman was talking could have been affected. Indeed, the Olympics presented to the new boss of Ofwat, did he draw to his attention quite a worry at the time. We clearly need more investment the marked reluctance of the water industry to pay the to ensure that water continues to flow in areas that are proper amount of tax, bearing it in mind that the prone to drought. aforesaid new boss of Ofwat, when he was at Anglian, During that time, I also saw floods. We must not made pretty sure it kept its tax liability to a minimum? forget that the water companies’ role in managing sewerage systems is vital in protecting our constituents’ homes Richard Benyon: Like the right hon. Gentleman, I am from flooding. There is also a need for continuing keen that everybody pay the required tax, but I caution investment in that regard. people who criticise capital allowances. If our water company were not exercising its rights under capital Alec Shelbrooke: I shall expand a little on my hon. allowances, either investment would fall or our bills Friend’s comments on the role of water companies in would rise, or both. There is sometimes a lack of basic dealing with flooding when I speak later. Would he care economic understanding: tax deferred is not tax not to comment on how the water companies are often paid; it has to be paid. In one respect, however, I ignored when they tell developers that there is a flood entirely agree, and I am deeply uncomfortable with risk in the area in which they are building? Does he some practices in aspects of corporate Britain. Work agree that the water companies are often left to clear up needs to be done—and in fairness to the Government the resulting mess, which puts pressure on their budgets? much has been done—to close loopholes. We need to make the argument that investment in the Richard Benyon: My hon. Friend makes a good point. industry keeps bills down. The right hon. Member for The Government are right to deal with the connection Holborn and St Pancras seems affronted by Chinese to private sewers, where many leakages have occurred. companies and sovereign wealth funds and investors They, and the water companies, are also taking action from all parts of the world investing in our regulated in other areas to ensure that they are playing their part. 189 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 190

[Richard Benyon] Let me explain why I believe the Water Bill is only a work in progress when it comes to delivering the ambitions Sometimes just a small investment can make a big of the water White Paper. In the next Parliament, I difference to the flood risk in an entire street, for really hope we will see a Bill to address the needs of example. It is vital to ensure that the water companies abstraction reform. It would be impossible to bring that are sitting down and talking to the flood forums and the forward as part of the Water Bill because there are tens local flood authorities to make sure that these issues are of thousands of abstraction licences, on which many of being addressed, but perhaps that is a wider issue for our constituents and the businesses that employ them another debate. depend for their water supply. Trying to create a new The Water Bill will play a key part in addressing the abstraction regime from the one created back in the challenges. The question of building new infrastructure 1960s is a Herculean task that will require thoughtful and new reservoirs was raised earlier. The key reform to legislation to make sure that the taps still flow and that ensure that that happens, to secure the long-term we do not suck dry aquifers like the Kennet, which sustainability of the industry and long-term benefits for provides a very important water supply to the constituents our constituents, will involve enabling new entrants to of my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon come into the industry and provide new competition. (Mr Buckland). That, however, has been the cheapest The competition that will exist in the non-household place from which to suck water, and it is only through sector must, in time, be introduced in the household the construction of good infrastructure and investment sector as well, and I hope that that will be the long-term that we can do this in a sustainable way that keeps bills ambition in a forward-thinking political agenda. That down, keeps water flowing and supports our economy. would result in the kind of benefits for households that Further legislation, then, is needed. businesses will soon be able to achieve by switching Let me make a further point about investment before supplier. The Bill should be seen only as work in progress, I reach my final point. If we want to see continued however. investment from pension funds—whether they be British One of this Government’s achievements of which I or from overseas—sovereign wealth funds and other am most proud is the water White Paper. It might sound investors, we need to recognise that this is a relatively rather prosaic to say that I am proud of a document, fragile and competitive market. I shall give the House but it set out some important provisions. It demonstrated an anecdote about the frequent visits I made to speak to that the Government were getting a grip on water the investor community to make sure that it saw that policy. In the past, water policy had been created by all our ambitions in the water White Paper and the Water kinds of different organisations and bodies, not least Bill were consistent with continued high levels of investment. the water companies themselves. In the White Paper, we Some time ago, there was a hiatus concerning a demonstrated our determination that the Government rather technical issue that might well have gone over the should own the policy and that the regulators should heads of most people in this country. It related to the regulate. We stated that, in a regulated sector, if the licence modifications that Ofwat wanted to create. This water companies functioned within meaningful regulation brought me in touch with a new breed in my life—City by the three regulators, we would have an industry of analysts, many of whom, in the words of my children, which we could be proud. The water White Paper was were “wusses”. They took an instant view that the welcomed by customers’ groups, the industry, investors, regulated sector was not the place in which to invest, so green NGOs and all parts of the House, although I do the water sector saw quite a high risk of much-needed not know whether that makes it a unique document, as investment being reduced. It took a Herculean effort—by the natural environment White Paper achieved much of me at the bottom echelons of the Government, right up the same. to the higher levels—to make sure, first, that what Ofwat was trying to achieve was understood. In my Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): opinion, it might have had a virtuous reason for what it I seem to recall that the Select Committee, of which the did, but perhaps went about it in the wrong way. It former water Minister was a member, criticised the reminded me that if we want to see continued levels of Government for not being ambitious enough. Is that investment, we have to make sure that we explain what not a fair recollection? we are doing. Ultimately, the need to deal with infrastructure problems needs to feed through to bills, and we need to Richard Benyon: The Select Committee produced many explain that we want to see a vibrant regulated sector in good things with which I agree. If that is what it said at this country. the time—I am afraid that many of my memories of the last three and a half years merge into one—I would Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? probably not agree, because there was bold ambition in the water White Paper, which was reflected in many of Richard Benyon: Very briefly. the comments made about it by many different people. Mr MacNeil: I have been listening carefully to the Julian Smith: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s work arguments on both sides of the debate. Why does the as a Minister. He is speaking passionately about the hon. Gentleman think average water bills are lower in White Paper and the Water Bill, but does he agree that Scotland, where water is publicly owned, than in England, the financing of these companies still looks dodgy to where it is privately owned? many of our voters? I would appreciate it if he commented on that before he concludes. Richard Benyon: We want to see in England the virtue of the competition from which the hon. Gentleman’s Richard Benyon: I shall talk about debt and gearing constituents benefit in Scotland, in the business sector shortly, and I think my hon. Friend will find me in and, indeed, the public sector. Schools and the health agreement with him on those issues. service in Scotland have the opportunity to switch their 191 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 192 suppliers, and the Water Bill will enable businesses in I hope that we will not be defensive about the model, England to do the same. I accept that this is still work in because it is a good model. It has created a huge benefit progress, but we want to see the benefits of competition for this country in terms of investment. What it has flowing— delivered is relatively affordable for most people, but we need to work hard to make sure prices come down. The Mr MacNeil rose— five-yearly price review, along with clear policy from the Government, who understand the situation, presents an opportunity. We can make sure the companies are Richard Benyon: I will not give way again because bearing down on bills and there is none of that awful many other Members wish to speak and I want to say cyclical investment, with investment falling off a cliff something about debt before I finish. two years before the price review period. We want to see I took on the water brief with a background in small continued investment because we know that is the way business, but I had never encountered, or been closely to have a sustainable water supply and a sustainable associated with, businesses that had the level of debt sewerage system—not just economically sustainable, and gearing that I saw in the water industry. I observed but environmentally sustainable as well. that the credit rating agencies—for which I have great respect: some very good people work for organisations 5.5 pm such as Moody’s and Standard & Poor’s—were giving Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): It is a the water companies very high ratings, awarding them pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for As, A-minuses and high Bs. In fact, Ofwat operates the Newbury (Richard Benyon), who spoke with passion strict criterion that their ratings must remain at those and real understanding about what is a complex issue. levels. However, I could not come to terms with that in The water industry was privatised nearly a quarter of a my own mind at times. century ago now, and it is reaching a crossroads. While I The companies may indeed be complying with Ofwat’s agree with my hon. Friend about the levels of investment criterion by gaining high credit ratings as a result of that privatisation has delivered—which is well in excess their wealth, but I think many Members will feel, as I of £100 billion in the last 25 years—we are reaching a do, that gearing of that order confers a brittleness—an stage where we now need to look for different solutions. inflexibility—when it comes to those companies delivering My hon. Friend touched on a number of them in his what we want them to deliver to their customers. I hope remarks, and I was very impressed by his description of there will be more understanding of the need for them City analysts and their attitude to the regulated sector, to reflect the concern that is felt about gearing levels, and the challenge of gearing. As he said, the high level not just in the House but among their customers. of gearing is causing inflexibility. That is leading to unimaginative solutions to the problems that beset It is important for us to view water bills in the context companies such as Thames Water, which serves not of total household expenditure. The Leader of the only the London area, but the area I have the honour of Opposition has decided that energy bills are an issue on representing: Swindon. which he wants to bang the drum, but we know that his plan will not work. He knows it will not work, and he My hon. Friend mentioned abstraction from the Kennet, knows that we know that he knows it will not work. and I should commend the Save Water Swindon campaign, What is ridiculous about his argument is that it treats which is all about encouraging householders to be one part of household expenditure, albeit an important sensible in the use of water. It has had a marked impact part, as the sole issue of the moment. Rather than doing and continues to this day. Indeed, only a couple of that, the Government must view water bills and energy weeks ago I was helping Thames Water promote that costs in the context of overall household expenditure. campaign. They must keep bearing down on council tax, and All that is detail, however, but today’s debate presents preferably freeze it. They must continue to protect the us with an opportunity to look more broadly at the most vulnerable by providing winter fuel payments, and challenge facing the industry.I am grateful to the Backbench to ensure that more of our constituents on low incomes Business Committee for accepting the application made do not pay any tax. It is in that context that the in my name and that of my hon. Friends the Members Government should develop policy on household bills. for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) and for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith). There is quite a geographical spread Water bills are, of course, important. It is vital for us between our constituencies, which shows that this is an not only to understand but to reflect the concerns of issue for the whole country, not just the area I represent. our constituents, and to take advantage of every opportunity to protect those on low incomes. We can, Although cost-of-living issues are very much the stuff for instance, provide social tariffs. We can also work on of current political debate, the issues raised today long the problem of bad debt, which, as we know, adds an predate the current political spat. This debate has to be average of £15 to every household’s bills—although about value for money for local consumers and businesses when that is broken down by company, it is clear that and finding better ways for our water industry to operate. some companies are outperforming others dramatically, Despite the interesting contribution of the right hon. and that their bad debt is a fraction of the average. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), Some are doing magnificently, and others appallingly who is no longer in his place, there is no doubt that badly. We must learn from best practice. We must 25 years ago privatisation was the right course of action. ensure that companies deal with bad debt, but we must There was no alternative for the industry if we were to also ensure that we address their relationships with their seek and secure new forms of capital investment. The customers in general. We must bear in mind the win-wins achievements of Bazalgette and the Victorians lasted us that can help those who are having trouble paying their for a long time, but we have by now reached a stage bills to deal with the problem. where renewal and reinvestment are essential. 193 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 194

[Mr Robert Buckland] householders because of their water bills. Does he recall whether the Labour party, when it was in government, Now, after nearly a decade of continued price rises, had any form of social tariffs or anything like what it householders are rightly asking themselves, “Why us?” has been calling for today? Or is this something where In the context of the current monopoly, who can they the Labour party has woken up and jumped on the turn to? The situation is worse than the Henry Ford bandwagon? scenario of “You can have any colour you like, as long as it’s black,” because there is nowhere else for consumers to go. Mr Buckland: I hope that this debate will continue in a spirit of looking to the long-term future of the I understand why the regional model was adapted industry, rather than descending into anything approaching from the previous nationalised structure. In many ways point scoring. I do not think that is worthy of the hon. that made sense in terms of bringing together infrastructure Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas with water supply, and I can think of the example of Docherty) and I am sure that we will not see such a Severn Trent with its assets over the border in Wales, descent in his contribution, because this issue predates but I ask this question: is the regionalised model sustainable this Government. for the long term? Is there not a better way of dealing with the industry? As I was explaining, price rises started to increase significantly in the middle of the past decade. The Mr Redwood: When we debated this, I was the one average Thames Water household bill was £254 in 2005-06 who said, “You must have competition and you can and it has now risen to £354. One of my constituents have competition in water, as in other things.” I lost that sent me his own list of increases, where he recorded that battle. Privatisation solved the capital shortage but, in 2005-06 his bill increased by a whopping 21% and apart from that, it has left all the evils of the monopoly that since that time his bills have increased by 84%. So in the nationalised business—a lack of quality, a lack of we can see why consumers and residents are asking, choice, high costs and a lack of innovation. “Why us? Why do we have to bear the burden?” Mr Buckland: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend I am pleased that Ofwat has issued a preliminary for that, and his role in all this back in the late 1980s decision to disallow Thames Water’s request to raise must not be underestimated. As he rightly says, now is prices by £29 for customers’ bills with effect from 2014-15. the time for us to draw an analogy with other industries Thames Water said that it wished to spread that increase such as telecoms, where infrastructure and supply are over several years but, as Ofwat has said, Thames Water dealt with separately. Giving consumers the right to has produced insufficient evidence to justify such a rise. switch suppliers is essential if we are to drive through an It is unique this year in terms of the other water improvement in service. companies and it is compounded by the prospect of indefinite rises of up to £80 for my residents in order Thomas Docherty: I heard the hon. Gentleman making to pay for the £4.1 billion Thames tideway tunnel. I am this argument earlier on the BBC. For the interest of the in no way an opponent of bold and imaginative House, will he clarify whether he also believes that the infrastructure schemes. They represent the best spirit of water companies should be able to disconnect a customer what inspired the Victorians to create the infrastructure who refuses to pay? on which, in many ways, we rely today. Buildings such as this place were the result of such boldness. It is right, Mr Buckland: Disconnection is very much a last however, that we should ask the legitimate question resort. We need to make sure that we do not put off about whether dealing with the problems experienced consumers from switching by fears about disconnection through the discharge of sewage into the River Thames that may be unjustified. Not only is water a resource for is worth that £4.1 billion. the country, but it has huge and essential social utility. I have no doubt that there are serious issues with It is one of the essentials of life, so I quite accept that we pollution, but air pollution in London affects more must have a social dimension to all this. That is why people than the issue that the tunnel seeks to address. moving towards a system where we have more social Other proposals, such as those for sustainable drainage, tariffs to help the more vulnerable members of society would be a more incremental way of dealing with the would be a good thing. problem than inflicting this large hit on consumers. Thomas Docherty: I am most grateful for that half- explanation. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that unless Mr Charles Walker: What does my hon. Friend suggest there is disconnection, the market simply cannot work? that London does with its faeces if we do not put them If we are going to have competition for households, we into the Thames or build a tunnel to take them away would have to have disconnection. from the Thames? Where will it all go? Mr Buckland: I do not follow that argument; it does not apply in other sectors and I do not see why it needs Mr Buckland: I am not saying that there is not a to apply in this one. Disconnection would not assist problem, but that there are alternative ways of dealing consumers when making that switch because they may with it through sustainable drainage. Earlier, my hon. well be deterred by the fear of disconnection, so I do Friend made an intervention about the need to build not accept that argument. more infrastructure. I heard what he said, but to my way of thinking the Abingdon reservoir was the wrong Charlie Elphicke: My hon. Friend is completely right response to the problems that still besets Thames Water— to reject the outrageous suggestion made by shadow that is, the massive leakages. Thames Water is still Minister that there should be the power to disconnect losing 646 million litres of water a day. 195 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 196

Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): I congratulate which has been welcomed, has already been issued my hon. Friend and his colleagues on securing the about concessionary schemes for community groups, it debate. Does he also agree that there is some question is now up to the industry to act swiftly on social tariffs about where the figures of £70 or £80 resulting from the and to ensure that those who are the most vulnerable tideway tunnel come from? If we divide the £4 billion by and who, like all of us, need access to a basic staff of the total number of customers in the area, it seems to life, can have that access without the fear of disconnection come to a somewhat lower number. Are there not also that was mentioned by the Opposition spokesman. questions about exactly how it is financed and whether As I said, this is an issue of not only household and it can be done more cheaply? local significance but national resonance. I shall not repeat some of the points that were raised by hon. Mr Buckland: My hon. Friend is right to suggest that Members about excessive boardroom pay, rather exotic the breakdown of the arithmetic for individuals does tax arrangements and capital expenditure, but it is not seem to add up. Thames Water intends to use a important to note, looking at the figures based on separate corporate vehicle to build this entity, but we current prices, that in real terms gross capital expenditure must ask why the bill payer must bear the brunt of the by the four major water companies in England and problem. Wales has fluctuated and is on a downward path. My Let me return to the question of leakages because the hon. Friend the Member for Newbury spoke eloquently figures are quite startling. Although Thames Water is about the cyclical nature of investment, which is hardly making progress in bringing the leakages down, and I a solid foundation for attracting the much-needed future give it credit for that, the figures are pretty disturbing. and further investment in the water industry. While it is Last year, it was reported that Thames Water was losing right to say that the Ofwat regime—Ofwat is currently 665 million litres of water a day, a leak rate of 25.7%. looking at the 2015-20 price regime—is an appropriate That was five times higher than the 5% that would have exercise of regulatory power, we need to try and get been saved by a hosepipe ban. The leaks would fill through the cyclical problem that is causing the inflexibility Wembley stadium every 36 hours. in the industry that he talked about. Today’s debate is a chance not only to make an Alec Shelbrooke: Wouldmy hon. Friend care to elaborate important contribution to the ongoing discussion about on that for those who call for nationalisation? Is it not the cost of living, but to look forward to the Water Bill, true that the state of the water industry and the state of to ensure that we take the opportunity to get that piece the pipes the water runs through were caused by the of legislation right for the market, and to remember lack of maintenance that happened when they were in that value for money for businesses, and for the people Government hands? Since they have been in private we represent, must be at the heart of our deliberations hands, the investment has been put in to try to rectify and discussions today. We owe it to them to ensure that that appalling problem. water bills are priced competitively, that the service is efficient and that there is a real sense of responsibility Mr Buckland: My hon. Friend is right that the problem for the people that the water companies serve. If we would probably be considerably worse had we left things help water companies along that road, we will have as they were and expected the Government, with their done the people whom we represent at least some declining pot, to invest and deal with leakages. The service today. problems, however, remain and although Thames Water is working to try to deal with them, I believe that the company should concentrate on leakages before it advocates 5.23 pm vast reservoir projects such as the one supported by my Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): It is a pleasure hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker). to see you taking up your new duties, Madam Deputy It is not just Thames that has a problem of leakages. Speaker. It probably has the most serious problem, but other Monopoly is the evil that we are here to debate. It is companies such as United Utilities and Severn Trent monopoly that stifles innovation. It is monopoly that also have considerable leakages. The most recent figures drives prices higher. It is monopoly that takes away I have from Ofwat show that United Utilities is losing choice and consumer power, and it is monopoly that 457 million litres a day and Severn Trent is losing leads to rationing. We saw all those features in the water 441 million. industry when it was nationalised. I am amazed that the The Water Bill has been mentioned. The Bill is a Labour party still has people who think it would be a good first step. It will be the first reform of the industry good idea to go back to the nationalised water monopoly, since privatisation, and it will bring choice for businesses, which regularly ran out of water in the summer. Woe charities and the public sector, but as other hon. Members betide the man or woman who had bedding plants in a have said, we should be going further to allow that hot summer in Britain—because before global warming choice to be extended to residents and household consumers. we used to get hot summers, and then the water would I am glad to hear that the Bill will allow for a more run out. It was a tragedy, because it was a direct result joined-up approach to the water supply network, thereby of the nationalised industry. in some ways dealing with the regionalisation issue that The privatised industry, I am pleased to say, has done continues to bedevil the infrastructure. I am glad that one thing better than the nationalised industry—it has there will be further improvements to the Ofwat regulatory got access to more capital. It has mended a lot of pipes, system. put in new pipes, and put in some investment into I am looking for a greater emphasis on developing dealing with dirty water as well, so we have fewer social tariffs. How that is to be done will be a matter for interruptions to supply under the privatised industry detailed discussion, and while Government guidance, than before. However, we did not go far enough with 197 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 198

[Mr John Redwood] a much better service. They could get the water supply when they wanted it and where they wanted it, and the privatisation. We transferred the ownership but, as pipes and so on mended and repaired. some of my hon. Friends have wisely pointed out, we Businesses in Scotland can also negotiate with their kept in place much of the regional structure. water industry about what sort of water they want. At present, under a nationalised monopoly or a privatised We bought the idiotic idea that the industry sold to monopoly, only one type of water is available. It is Ministers and advisers that because rivers run to the sea cleaned to a certain standard and it then has additives in separate geographical areas called river basins, it was put in it. An industry wanting to make drinks may need terribly important to have local monopolies around a to take the additives out before it can make its drinks, so river basin. Woe betide anyone who wanted to move there is a double cost and a nuisance, because it cannot water from one river basin area to another, and woe get the type of water it wants. A firm that wants to carry betide anyone who wanted to use borehole water. out a fairly rudimentary washing business does not Apparently, it all had to be organised around river need water of a quality that we can drink, but it has to valleys. Sometimes it is difficult to create boundaries pay the extra price to buy the very high-quality water between them, because tributaries and streams have a literally to tip it down the drain. habit of not being as neat as administrative lines on maps, but it was decided that we had to have this Therefore, we are not seeing experimentation, innovation “natural monopoly”. or customer service because of a lack of competition. The industry is determined to supply only one grade of There is no natural monopoly in the supply of water. water and only the amount it can be bothered to supply, As was pointed out by the right hon. Member for and then it blames the customer, should we dare to say Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) who has that we want a bit more. We are now bombarded with recently departed the Chamber, rain falls across the messages from the industry suggesting that water is a whole of the United Kingdom, not always all at the natural monopoly and not the ultimate renewable resource. same time, not always in the same quantities, but this We are told that good people take only one bath a week island is not cursed with a shortage of rain for most of in order to save water, that they do not use so much the time, and we collect very little of it. It is also not water for cleaning and that they ensure that they husband true to say that water is some precious resource that has their use of water in their sinks and whatever machines to be husbanded because it will run out. Water is the they have at home that require it. ultimate renewable resource. It falls as rain; it mainly I have good news for my constituents: I do not believe runs out to the sea; it is picked up by the winds and goes that. I think that water is the ultimate renewable resource, back into the clouds; and it comes back again as rain. that it ought to be made available more abundantly and Nature or God, depending on one’s beliefs, does most more cheaply and that that could be done if we trusted of the job for us, producing an endless supply of water competition. Surely one of the advantages of rising to this country. All that we have to do is provide living standards, which is what we are all here to try to business people who can raise the capital to make sure help create, is that people can then use more water that we capture enough of that water in a form that we because they have more things to clean, or because they can then put into pipes, and that we clean it up to an wish to enjoy themselves in their bathroom. We need to appropriate standard for the use. ensure that they have access to the right quantities of We did not introduce competition into the industry cheaper water, and competition is the way to do that. when we privatised it, so many of the evils of monopoly are still with us. We have less rationing, but we can still Julian Smith: My right hon. Friend, as always, is have rationing. We have quite dear prices, although speaking in an impassioned way about the merits of perhaps they do not go up quite as quickly as they did competition. Will he explain to the House how quickly when they were part of a Treasury exercise. We certainly he thinks domestic competition could be introduced get more capital into the industry, but at the expense of and whether he thinks the Government should be moving quite substantial gearing, as some hon. Gentlemen have more quickly on that? mentioned. However, many of the bad features of the nationalised industry are perpetuated and it is very Mr Redwood: I would do it straight away. I cannot see difficult being a challenger to the industry, so I pay what the problem is. If water is a natural monopoly, as tribute to the former Minister, my hon. Friend the some people argue, no harm will be done by breaking Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), who produced the formal monopoly; it is just that nothing will happen. a White Paper which is becoming a piece of legislation, But of course it is not a natural monopoly, which is why which will try to open up the market a bit more. the industry is fighting so hard to keep a legal monopoly. It knows that it will have to wake up and change quite a I pay tribute to the modest steps taken in Scotland, lot if it has to face competition. where it was discovered that far from the taps running We would have to give the market some help to get dry or the water prices going through the roof if the it going, because the monopolists are in a very strong authorities dared to have more than one provider of position. We would need to tell them to use their pipe business water, the opposite has happened: the prices network as a common carrier, because other people went down—a little bit, because there was not a great would need access to it. However, the challengers might deal of competition coming in—and above all the quality soon find, as was the case with those sorts of arrangements of service rose. I have talked to some of the Scottish in the telecoms industry, that the existing assets are not businesses that have to deal with the water industry. so great and that they want to put in their own pipes. They say that the great breakthrough in Scotland as The challengers in telecoms did that with wires, and a result of competition was the fact that they could get then of course the radio links became a cheaper and 199 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 200 better way of doing it. Who knows what technical It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for breakthroughs there might be or how much challengers Wokingham (Mr Redwood). I think that he and I will would want to use the common carrier network? However, agree about one thing: the botched privatisation of the to get competition going we would need to start with a late 1980s and early ’90s has led us to a wholly undesirable common carrier network, so a system would need to be situation. However, we are where we are. As someone put in place to allow people access to the pipes. who, in the past couple of years, has had responsibility We would also need to ensure that the Environment on the Opposition Front Bench for the issue of water, I Agency was prepared to license borehole water and have watched the situation very closely. I was struck sensible levels of river extraction by other licensees. I do today by the news that this Government are now apparently not want our rivers to be run dry by people taking too taking water affordability incredibly seriously. There much out in a dry season, so we would need proper has been a damascene conversion—or perhaps a regulation for that. As has been pointed out, however, Dunfermline and West Fife conversion, as my hon. we let huge quantities of water go to the sea during wet Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife periods, so we do not seem to be very good at planning (Thomas Docherty) has joined the Front-Bench team our water use and holding it in suitable locations so that and is clearly getting far better results than I ever did in we have plenty in drier weather. the role that he has the privilege of holding. Another thing that I think the water industry needs to pay attention to, along with other utilities in this The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for country, is the huge disruption they cause to our road Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson): I network. Our road network is a nationalised monopoly welcome the hon. Gentleman to this debate and hate to and therefore has rationing and, looking at the tax bill, interrupt his complimentary remarks about his hon. is extremely expensive. It has all the characteristics of Friend. However, following what Government Members monopoly provision that I dislike. One of the things have said about the Water Bill and what we want to do that make our totally inadequate road network even on pricing, it is fair to say that we have been working on worse is the fact that it is regularly disrupted by businesses this issue for a very long time. I think he will find that digging up great chunks of tarmac and subsoil with any announcements in recent days that have come from pneumatic drills in order to lay new water pipes, other sources on the Opposition side might be a little new to utility pipes and wires. Why on earth have we not learnt the debate. that it is not a great idea to put these things right down the middle of the road and then hard-pack soil, subsoil, Gavin Shuker: What a fantastic set-up for the speech I tarmac and stones on top, which means huge delay, am about to give, which is about the Government’s disruption and cost every time we want to change it? In record in the past few years. I freely accept that the hon. modern buildings all the services run in ducts under the Gentleman was not a member of the Government at floors so that we do not have to rip out the plaster, half that time, but he obviously voted on many of the issues demolishing the place, every time we want to change the that I want to talk about. wiring. It is crucial that we in this House have a proper Surely we could have a system to provide easy access understanding of the impact that the Bill that is being along the side of our roads to pipes, wires and anything sold to us will have on the consumer bills that are being else we want to put down without having to dig up the levied on many of our constituents right now. Let us be road every time. We could at least start doing that when clear: no one was talking about water affordability or we build new estates, shopping centres or whatever. We Government action to reform the water industry to should do it intelligently by putting in ducts to save all deliver for customers and not just for shareholders until that money and time. I find utility companies very the Leader of the Opposition gave his living standards sympathetic to that idea when I invite them in to talk speech in Brighton back in September. about it. They say, “It’s a very good idea, but it won’t work in this case, Mr Redwood.” We have to make it Richard Benyon rose— work, because many other countries are well ahead of us on all this. They think we are completely potty to go in for this idea that the water company digs up the road Gavin Shuker: I am happy to take an intervention and puts in a new pipe, then six months later the gas from the former water Minister. people come along and do exactly the same thing in a slightly different position, and then the following year Richard Benyon: I hesitate to rise, because I could just the electricity people turn up and do it again. It is mad, sit here and enjoy the hon. Gentleman’s speech. He and costly and inefficient, and it is doing huge damage to an I had endless discussions about affordability when he inadequate road network. was in his Front-Bench role, so he knows that he need For all those reasons, give us competition, give us only read the water White Paper to see that we were choice, give us innovation, and give us some common concerned about that issue, and he knows that the sense, because we are getting a rotten deal at the moment. underlying truth of the Water Bill is that, in order to keep bills low, we need to make sure that we have an industry fit for the future, which is all about affordability 5.35 pm and protecting our constituents. He also knows, therefore, Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): I am extremely that it is ridiculous to suggest that this issue has appeared grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker, for your generosity just in the past few days. in allowing me to speak in this debate. I apologise for having missed the opening speech because of parliamentary Gavin Shuker: The hon. Gentleman makes a passionate business that I could not avoid. defence of his own record in post. 201 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 202

[Gavin Shuker] Gavin Shuker: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If we look at the price review periods since privatisation, Let us look at some of the specific measures on which we will see that water bills came down in real terms this Government had the opportunity to work and during only one of them and that was under the previous legislate but deliberately chose not to do so. First, there Labour Government. On the price review process, my is bad debt. I was interested to read a copy of the hunch is that this Government believe that the water Secretary of State’s letter to the water companies—sent companies will read the signals coming from hard-pressed out today, curiously enough, purely coincidentally—which consumers and come in at RPI plus 0 or RPI minus 1 in talked about bad debt. I thought, “Fantastic! At last the next price review period and claim it as their victory, this Government have adopted the right position on but let us be clear: getting a sustained reduction in water bad debt.” Each household has to pay £15 or so because costs requires action from this Government. some people cannot pay and will not pay, and that money is dumped on the bills of consumers who step up and do pay. Andrew Percy: We have moved on a little, but the hon. Gentleman has graciously given way. He is doing a On energy bills, is it not interesting that there is a good job of reading the Labour brief and trying to provision that requires landlords to give companies pretend that all of a sudden it is interested in people’s their tenants’ details so that they can reclaim the money? bills. On the Pitt review, is he suggesting that it was On reading the letter, I thought, “Fantastic. At last the somehow planned by the Labour Government, or did it Government have responded to the Opposition’s calls come about because I and my constituents were all to make the water situation analogous with that of under about 2 feet of water for a long time? energy.” However, the letter only makes a firm threat to look at the issue in more detail if the companies themselves do not voluntarily make progress on the provision. Gavin Shuker: Intense flooding has major implications My position and that of my party is clear: bad debt as and climate change means that it will happen more a result of those people who will not or cannot pay regularly, but the hon. Gentleman seems to be saying dumps an additional cost on every household, so it that the previous Labour Government were in some would make sense to implement the provision. The way wrong to review the situation and flood defences. Government could have taken that action. We made the He was not the MP for his area at the time, but he case for it, but they have had no interest in it until now. knows that the flooding was devastating. If he wants That is not the only issue. Government Members and proper action on ensuring that his constituents will be the press have today mentioned the social tariff. I was protected against the next bout of flooding, he should the lead Opposition Member on the Water Industry support our efforts to amend the Water Bill to make (Financial Assistance) Bill Committee. We sought to sure that there is a proper, workable Flood Re solution amend the Bill so that every water company operating for flooding insurance. He mentions the Labour brief. I in the UK had to do one simple thing, namely offer a humbly point out to him that for the past few years I social tariff to those people who find it hard to pay their have been writing the brief. bills or who find themselves in a situation where they cannot pay for the service provided. The Government Charlie Elphicke: Does the hon. Gentleman agree chose to vote down that proposal and Government that the last Labour Government did nothing on social Members voted against it. Instead, they favoured a tariffs? voluntary approach: if water companies wanted to introduce a social tariff, they could. It is amazing how few water companies have actually done so. Gavin Shuker: No, that is not the case. The Flood and Water Management Act 2010 created the legislative George Hollingbery: I think I am right in saying that framework for that measure. the previous Labour Government were in power for 13 I want to talk about some of the measures that have years and I am struggling to add up the number of been trumpeted as the solution to bring about water water regulation Bills they introduced during that time. affordability and to stop the rising tide of householders If the hon. Gentleman would like to tell me, I will take a who are finding themselves in water poverty or unable round number. to pay their water bills. The approach of the Water Bill is entirely the wrong way around. It is interesting to Gavin Shuker: Why not start with the three reviews hear Government Members say that the only answer is that led to the water White Paper? The Pitt, Walker and greater competition. I accept that retail business competition Cave reviews looked directly at competition and were could be a good way of reducing water usage. That has conducted in the five years before we exited government made a profound difference north of the border. That is and this Administration came in. They laid the groundwork why we have supported it continually. The idea came and contained radical ideas that would have resulted out of the Cave review. in better provisions for water affordability. They would have put in place a framework to deal with the issue in However, at a time when many parts of the UK are its entirety. The water White Paper, which resulted from much more water-scarce than other parts of the continent those reviews, was quite good, but that has left many of and even parts of Africa, it is short-sighted to think that us asking: why is the Water Bill so washed out? that idea will work without considering abstraction reform as well. The Government have chosen to punt Thomas Docherty: My hon. Friend is making an that issue into the 2020s—until 2025—for the next excellent speech. I think I am right in saying that it was Government to look at. If we do not deal with scarcity only under the Labour Government that water bills in many parts of the country, there will be a major actually fell. Is that correct? problem. Instead, the Government have looked for a 203 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 204 number of measures that will shake up the industry and Today, 72% of people believe that water would be make them look pro-reform, but that will not necessarily better off nationalised. That is a massive flashing red tackle the issue of abstraction. light to the water industry that it needs to take action, There is an idea that the only answer to the problem and to the Government if they believe that that should of some parts of the country being water-rich and not be the policy that passes through. I believe one way others water-poor is to build pipelines. I remind the of doing that would be to have a social responsibility House that 2% of the country’s energy usage already clause in the Water Bill that lays out clearly and benchmarks goes on water. There is a major carbon cost to that idea. what each water company is doing in terms of social If people do not believe that that would end up on responsibility. That would include the companies saying people’s bills, they are wrong. how they manage their tax affairs in a way that is easy to understand and has clarity, rather than things being Alec Shelbrooke: Just to clarify, did the hon. Gentleman hidden away in the balance sheet. They would also say that we need a national water grid to move water mention their responsibility to their broader constituencies, around or that we do not? and whether they employ apprentices and are investing in R and D, as Cave mentioned in his report. Let us Gavin Shuker: I am happy to clarify that. I was saying look at the water companies and instead of saying that that the idea of a national water grid is stillborn, purely some have a good story to tell, let us try to raise them all on the basis that the carbon costs make it too difficult. up to the level of the very best. If we accept the premise for that idea, surely what we Those five areas—bad debt, social tariff, abstraction need is a similar level of investment in water efficiency. reform, Eurobonds and social responsibility—would in We must have a similar amount of foresight on how we themselves create a coherent basis for tackling water will get by with less in the many water-stressed areas. affordability and water scarcity. I humbly remind the The south-east continues to grow and water is becoming House that despite all the hype of today and what the more scarce. Minister may say, this Government have looked those Unless there is proper leadership on that issue, things challenges squarely in the eye and dodged each one. will become very difficult. Big concrete, in-the-ground solutions are not the right approach. There is a need for additional water capacity, but we need to consider the issues. I say humbly that the Government have a green 5.52 pm deal, but where is the blue deal? Where is the deep Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): I would thinking about what we need to do? like to go further in the debate and mention some of the Another area where the Government have been caught powers that I think the water industry needs. I will focus napping is the structure of the industry.After privatisation, my remarks around the Water Bill, and the fact that as a number of companies emerged that were listed on the with any industry, resources are scarce. It by no means UK stock market. There was then a shift in the industry passes the public by that their water bills go up, yet now towards foreign ownership. Today, the majority of the and again we have hosepipe bans and so on because—let industry is owned by private equity firms. At the same us be honest—of the mismanagement of our water time, dividends and water bills have continued to rise. resources. It does not help, however, when developers Unison has done some fantastic research that has tracked take no notice whatsoever of reports from water companies the nature of the industry. However, it is not just about the impact that their developments may have on Unison that has raised concerns. Jonson Cox, the chair the surrounding area. My constituency of Elmet and of Ofwat, has said that there needs to be greater clarity Rothwell is badly affected by such situations. in many of the difficult accounting explanations. I hope I recently had discussions with some people from that Ofwat will continue to pursue that issue. Yorkshire Water about a small village in my constituency One issue on which the Government could take action called Walton. It has a couple of houses that are badly is Eurobonds, and the practice whereby water companies affected by heavy rainfall and flooding. Yorkshire Water effectively borrow from arm’s length bodies of themselves effectively said that a scheme to save two houses would at greater levels of interest, which is obviously favourable cost £1.8 million—not in the region of something it on their balance sheet. The Government consulted on could afford do—but that the problem came about in that issue and decided to do nothing, yet it is a major the first place because the original barn should never reason why the water industry has skewed the way it have been converted into a house. Messages to that has. If we want to drill down and ensure that the benefit effect were put forth at the time, but the conversion of the reforms goes not only to shareholders but to went ahead. The house was sold on in good faith and customers and households, the Government must consider no matter what the situation in trying to alleviate the that issue again. problem, Yorkshire Water is fairly certain that the water Finally, I want to mention social responsibility for will always end up in that place. No one particularly water companies. In January 2012 I went to a fantastic noticed when it was full of cows, but when it is someone’s research facility at the university of Leeds called Water house, they tend to notice. That is a prime example. at Leeds. I gave a speech in which I laid out Labour’s My constituency is under unprecedented pressure for response to the water White Paper and the forthcoming housing development. Figures from Leeds city council legislation. I also talked about the consensus that exists state that 12,500 houses could be built across my on water. Both parties in government, the industry constituency. One place currently under great scrutiny and customers have bought into the idea of a largely is an area of Kippax called Sandgate drive. Some 260 houses monopolised, yet privately owned, privately run and are to be built at the back of some houses—by that privately debt-financed water industry, but that consensus I actually mean built on a hill behind those houses. could break down if action is not taken. Yorkshire Water has said that the water that will run 205 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 206

[Alec Shelbrooke] One village in my constituency, Methley, suffers from huge toxic, rancid smells from a pumping station for off would be unacceptable and that it would put huge sewage. Yorkshire Water believes that that happens pressure on the water courses to deal with that run-off because there is a kink in the sewage pipe somewhere in of water—something the developers appear to be ignoring. the two miles of road by the village. It does not have the The Environment Agency deals with water that floods resources to dig up the road and find the kink—it says off land and is taken away in rivers, but it is down to the that the amount of people affected does not justify the water companies to deal with the surface run-off and to amount it would need to spend. That is an example of get it to the rivers. The current development plans do the pressures the water companies are under. not help water companies in the slightest, which means two things: first, that resources that should be used to Frank Dobson: Surely Yorkshire Water has access to a repair the network so we can use our resources more device that will identify where the aforesaid kink is and efficiently get soaked up in flood alleviation solutions; does not need to dig up two miles of road. and, secondly, that people’s bills rise constantly, with no further impact. Alec Shelbrooke: One would have thought so, and I have had meetings about that. Unfortunately, Yorkshire In an area of my constituency in the town of Wetherby, Water is uncertain about where the sewer actually runs, there is a planning application for 400 houses at the top and that is a consequence of decades gone by when of a hill. There have been problems with the water there was not proper mapping. That shows the problems pressure in Wetherby. Yorkshire Water had to take the privatised water industry has come up against when measures on the Thorpe Arch trading estate to ensure it dealing with a legacy of poor investment and poor had proper pumping facilities to get the water to the records. top. That has been resolved, but only last week a Incidents such as the one in Methley are a blight on resident told me that, last summer, on a very warm day, people’s lives. I have stood there and the smell is appalling— the water pressure dropped off when everybody in the people are prisoners in their own homes. We have to area used the water. The developers have taken no ensure that water companies have a say over inappropriate notice of that, which means that Yorkshire Water must developments. There are 4,500 houses in Garforth and spend more of its resources dealing with the further 1,000 house Rothwell, but no consideration is given to drop in pressure, because it does not have the detonator water in planning developments. The developers do not to say, “That development cannot go ahead unless the care and leave it to Yorkshire Water to deal with. The developer is willing to spend huge amounts on the water time water companies have to take to deal with such infrastructure.” issues means that they are not able to deal with historic A huge development—a dual carriageway ring road—is issues, such as ensuring efficient water use, repairing taking place to the east of Leeds. Back in the storms of collapsed sewers and so on. 2007, my constituency, like the constituency of my hon. I urge the Minister to take those points into consideration Friend for— during the passage of the Water Bill. For my constituents, the ability of the water companies to make their lives Andrew Percy: Brigg and Goole. better cannot come quick enough.

Alec Shelbrooke: I cannot believe I forgot the name of 6pm my hon. Friend’s constituency, but there we go. Like his Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) constituency, my constituency had a huge amount of (LD): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship water flooding through it during those storms. for the first time, Madam Deputy Speaker; I welcome Fundamentally, the river valley could not cope with the you to the Chair. I thank the Backbench Business amount of water. Nobody can do anything about such Committee for giving us this opportunity—I lobbied one-off events, but we can avoid exacerbating the situation. for it, so I am one of those responsible for securing the There is a live planning application for a development debate—and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for on the floodplain in the village that was 6 feet under Dover (Charlie Elphicke) for introducing the debate. I water that day, which is disgusting. Yorkshire Water apologise for being unable to hear his contribution—I should have the ability to turn around and say, “No. was detained—but I have been present for much of the That area will not be developed.” The developers can debate. I welcome the Under-Secretary of State for put in any flood protection scheme they like on their Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend new development, but they do not give a tinker’s cuss the Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson), who what happens 100 metres down the road, where the has inherited the Water Bill. His predecessor, my hon. houses will be flooded. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), Those problems can be alleviated if the water industry said that this issue has occupied him for the past three has the ability to work hand in hand with the developers. years. I thank him for always being courteous and I mentioned the ring road, which should have a flood engaging, not least on matters relating to Thames Water. alleviation drain built under it. The proposal will have a I received an encouraging piece of information a few huge impact on my constituents, who have had to deal weeks ago, as did other hon. Members who represent with flooding and must now deal with extra housing. the Thames Water area. As my hon. Friend the Member We are talking about investment in the water industry for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) said a moment ago, and how it best uses the money it gets from water bills. the provisional view of Ofwat is that it is minded Given the pressures of development, we need to ensure to reject the latest application from Thames Water to that the industry has every ability to work hand in hand increase prices. Given that we had previously been told with developers. by Thames Water that it expected to increase prices not 207 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 208 just next year but every year by approximately £60 to In other words, there is no clearly identifiable social £80 per household, to fund the Thames tunnel, that is a tariff scheme that the entire water industry can point welcome relief. I understand that Ofwat has not made to—although I appreciate that WaterSure is a national its final decision, but I hope it will confirm it this week. scheme—and there are patches of coverage, which is My constituents would be encouraged by that news. one reason why all water companies should have a It was also encouraging to hear the Environment social tariff. Secretary this week tell water companies to be mindful that price increases should be imposed only where necessary, and remind them to introduce special tariffs for hard-pressed Simon Hughes: I apologise if I phrased my remarks as households. That takes me back to debates at the end of if to suggest that the hon. Gentleman was the former the previous Parliament when my hon. Friends the Member for Luton South. He is clearly still the current Members for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) Member, as I know, not least because when I last went and for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) tabled an to Luton on official business—to watch Millwall beat amendment to the Flood and Water Management Act Luton Town—he was there to buy me a drink afterwards. 2010 to allow for social tariffs, which had never before I was very grateful—actually, I cannot remember whether existed in the water industry. There had been social I bought him a drink or he bought me one, but anyway tariffs in the energy industry, but not in the water it was a very nice pub, and I commend it. Luton has industry. The Act became law on 8 April 2010—probably good breweries, beer and pubs. But we, as the away the last piece of legislation to sneak over the line before team, were very well received by our hosts. [Interruption.] the general election. Since then, the Government have He wants me to stop rubbing it in. I apologise. been positive about encouraging individuals to consider how they can get help with their water bills and ensuring One of the dates in my diary this week, besides this that water companies introduce social tariffs. Since the debate, was that for making representations to the public Liberal Democrats have been in the Government, guidance inquiry into the Thames tideway tunnel. The latest date on social tariffs was issued in June 2012 and water for written representations was yesterday, which was companies have been able to introduce their own social when I submitted mine. For my constituents and many tariffs since 2013. I credit Thames Water with welcoming others, not just in London but in the whole Thames and responding to that opportunity. Water region, it remains a live issue whether Thames Many families are often hard pressed by the cost of Water’s current plans for the tunnel are the right ones, their water bills. For years, I and my hon. Friend the given the alternative ways of dealing with sewage in Minister and his colleagues in Cornwall and the south-west London, and the question whether the route is the right campaigned for a reduction in south-west water bills, one. Obviously, the route will impact significantly on but the Government have now dealt with that and, in a constituencies such as mine. For example, a big site welcome move, have legislated to reduce bills in the on Chambers wharf is proposed for the drive shaft, but south-west. I and my constituents argue that it should be used for the reception shaft—if it is to be used at all—and that For the benefit of those who follow our debates, I the drive shaft should be elsewhere. should add that there are two other schemes that provide help. The first is the WaterSure scheme, funded by water We also have concerns about the financing. The hon. customers, which provides financial help to householders Member for South Swindon said that the debate was with three or more children under the age of 19, if on a ongoing in government about what the right approach water meter and in receipt of certain benefits—people should be, if the Government are to respond to Thames should check which benefits and whether they qualify—and Water’s approaches. My constituents think—the right for those without children but in receipt of benefits and hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) with a medical condition requiring excessive water use. probably shares this view—it is a bit rich for a non-public That is important. Not everybody knows about it, but company to run down its assets and then ask the they should, particularly those struggling who might Government to underwrite it in borrowing significant qualify. The other scheme, Water Direct, run by the amounts of money and expecting the taxpayer, the bill Department for Work and Pensions, helps householders payer or both to pick up the bill, as is currently proposed. in receipt of certain benefits to manage debt with water companies. Under that scheme, the DWP acts as a I have regularly urged my right hon. Friend the Chief broker to help make arrangements. Secretary to the Treasury and colleagues in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—before and Gavin Shuker: Will the right hon. Gentleman give after the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, way? Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall took up his post—to be careful not Simon Hughes: Before I give way, I pay tribute to the to endorse a solution that appears to condone allowing hon. Gentleman for the work he did from the Opposition water companies in England to run down their assets Front Bench and for his contribution a few minutes ago, and then try to get Government support to bail them which I heard and enjoyed. out. That would not send the right message. The water companies must understand that, if they make choices Gavin Shuker: That is incredibly generous of the right resulting in their profits going not to the consumer but hon. Gentleman. I am just checking I am not dead—people to their shareholders in the form of dividends, they rarely speak nicely of each other in the House, so really cannot expect the Government to come to the perhaps I am. rescue, even if that means that one company eventually I wanted to be helpful, actually. Does the right hon. has to be replaced by another. I am sure that there is no Gentleman agree that neither of those quite good schemes shortage of companies willing to enter the water market is well known, partly because they operate regionally? in England. 209 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 210

Frank Dobson: Does the right hon. Gentleman not organisations, either through a consumer representative agree that it would be ludicrous to expect the British on the board or by placing a duty on the non-executive taxpayer to bail out a company that was partly owned directors to report on how best to serve the consumer by Chinese taxpayers? If Chinese taxpayers want to interest, or both. invest in Thames Water, they should bear the brunt of Fourthly and importantly, we should amend the Bill any charges that the company might incur. The scheme to introduce mandatory annual customer meetings, where is going to cost £4 billion, but Thames Water’s shareholders customers can hold management to account in companies have already benefited from £6 billion of dividends. that do not currently have annual general meetings in None of that money came to the people of London. the UK. I would also hope to change the law through the Bill, so that, when restructuring companies which Simon Hughes: I take a similarly hard line on this have gone into special administration, the regulator issue. If Thames Water does not have the money in its must always first consider non-profit companies, rather own coffers to do what it wants, it should not be doing than putting them straight back into the private sector, the job, and it certainly should not be asking the taxpayers as we saw in a recent example in the railway industry. I of the United Kingdom for help to do it. hope that the Government will also look at how different I also want to flag up some proposals that I hope the models of corporate ownership have impacted on the Government will take on board. I do not expect my water industry, as they have not all been satisfactory. hon. Friend the Minister to provide an immediate response I hope that Ofwat will also do four things—and soon. of yes, yes, yes, but I know that he is alert to the First, I hope it will report on all the companies in questions I am going to ask about what Ofwat and the England, not just Thames Water, to establish whether Government can do. I pray in aid a useful pamphlet, more modest dividend and financial policies would which I am happy to promote, that was recently published have allowed them to have enough money to spend and by CentreForum, a Liberal think-tank. It was written to reduce bills. Secondly, it should look at how price by George Turner, who used to run my office here. He cuts could be implemented at the next price review. became interested in the water industry during his time Thirdly, it should change the licence conditions of here because of the Thames Water issues. His pamphlet companies to impose London stock exchange disclosure has the additional commendation of having had its requirements on non-stock market-listed companies. foreword written by Sir Ian Byatt, the well-regarded Lastly, picking up the point made by the right hon. first regulator at Ofwat. Member for Holborn and St Pancras, Ofwat should I shall quote briefly from the pamphlet, then set out change the licence conditions to require public disclosure my recommendations for what I hope the Chancellor of all intermediate holding companies, ultimate controlling will say in his autumn statement on 4 December. The companies and all the beneficiaries of those companies, pamphlet refers only to England; Wales and Scotland so that we know exactly where the benefits that go in have entirely different arrangements. It states: dividends to shareholders end up in those many companies “Water is one of the essential industries. We literally cannot behind many of this country’s water companies. live without it…There are allegations of widespread tax avoidance. We may have the best drinking water quality in the The level of corporate borrowing is becoming unsustainable. The world, and we are soon to debate different changes in ownership structure means that there is very little public accountability. the structure of the industry. I hope the Government Most of our largest companies are owned by private equity funds and there are no public meetings where management can be held will be responsive to amendments designed to enhance to account. The ownership structures are murky to say the least the interests of the consumer. I hope the water companies with strings of companies dotted around the world’s island secrecy will understand that it is now time for them to stop jurisdictions and tax havens. This makes it difficult for the public stacking up money for profits to be paid out in dividends, to know what is going on with its water suppliers.” and to put the interests of the consumer and the consumer’s The problem has come to a head in relation to bills first. Thames Water, which has got itself into this position over the proposed tunnel. I suggest that some of the 6.18 pm ideas in the pamphlet should be picked up by the Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): The debate Government, Parliament, Ofwat and the Select Committee. has been interesting, with more contributions from First, we could introduce a water levy on highly geared Government than Opposition Members—but I enjoyed water companies, which would take away the incentive their speeches all the same. The hon. Member for Luton to introduce risk by increasing gearing and removing South (Gavin Shuker) told us that he wrote the briefing financial flexibility. This was mentioned by my right for the Opposition. It seemed to consist of, “Here are hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) lots of good things that the Government should have and my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard done, which we did not bother to do in our 13 years”, so Benyon). he should perhaps revisit history a little before he writes Secondly, we could ask the Government to look at—I his next briefing on this issue. ask them to do so now—the tax treatment of debt in There are three water companies—Yorkshire Water, highly geared companies and to consider economies Anglian Water and Severn Trent—in my constituency, and systems such as the German ones, where there are covering 250 square miles in two different counties. I earnings-stripping rules that prevent companies from have had experience of trying to deal with all three, and taking out excessive loans with the intention of avoiding the experience can be different depending on which tax. water company one has to deal with. I shall speak about Thirdly, we could legislate—I hope the Minister will my constituents’ experience with some of those companies be sympathetic when the Water Bill goes through its and make some suggestions to make the consumer stages—to make sure that water companies make the experience better, not just for my residents but for all interests of the consumer much more central in their constituents across the country. 211 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 212

We have been lucky and unlucky. We have seen for a number of years that the town’s pumping capacity considerable investment in the constituency in recent and the major assets that were meant to protect us were years, but that came after year after year after year of not fit for purpose. Yorkshire Water has tried very hard regular flooding. Bizarrely, over the last year or two, since then, and I feel very positive about what it has parts of the constituency have faced hosepipe bans done, but we should not have been put in that position, because of a lack of water, while other parts have at particularly in view of Yorkshire Water’s dividends. different times been under several inches, if not feet, of There has been an improvement since 2010—the company’s water. Much of it has been surface water, and hence dividend is now significantly lower in relation to its within the remit of the water and sewerage companies. post-tax profits—but the statistics for 2005, 2006 and My constituency, apart from a few bumpy bits, is generally 2008-9 were pretty appalling, at the very time when we very low lying, below the high-tide mark, and consequently should have benefited from investment. most of the communities I represent rely on a pumping Meanwhile, bills were rising in my constituency. The system to keep them dry. Where I live, there is a series of Yorkshire Water household bill, which I pay every year very high banks as well as pumping. along with other residents, was £264 in 2005. By 2009-10 We have had some good experiences with Severn and 2010-11, when we were under many feet of water Trent, and have welcomed its investment in Westwoodside owing to that lack of investment and an inability to and Crowle. I have been a key member of the liaison maintain assets properly, it had risen to £330. Profit for team dealing with that investment. The company has utility companies is something that is established, and I also worked with customers: we have arrived at some have nothing against it as long as it is accompanied by solutions, and it has been generally responsive. That has investment, but the compelling statistics and data presented not always been the case, but we have done reasonably by my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie well in recent years, and I am grateful for the company’s Elphicke) at the beginning of the debate made clear that investment. all is not well. We need either beefed-up powers for In Goole, which is covered by Yorkshire Water, we Ofwat, or the creation of further bodies to deal with have had a very different experience historically, although water companies that are making huge profits while not it has improved a great deal recently. Goole has been investing in communities such as mine which are particularly flooded in at least four or five consecutive years out of prone to flooding. the last seven or eight, including 2010 and 2011, when Although Yorkshire Water’s profit-to-dividend ratio major assets failed in the town. At the time I was at has improved since 2010, I am afraid that that of pains to remind the House, and also Yorkshire Water, Anglian Water is moving in a different direction. I that sometimes it is the people who pay the bills who are concur with some of the demands Members have made the last to find out when something has gone disastrously of the Government and the water industry. I hope the wrong. Minister will consider introducing new powers to allow In 2011, I was in my wellies going from door to door companies making excess profits to be ordered to cut and from street to street, visiting as many places in my bills and to beef up the powers allowing Ofwat to constituency as I could. We were under rising water, require investment in our infrastructure when these because our pumping system had completely failed and profits are too high. The Government must stand up for if our town is not pumped, the water level rises very consumers. quickly. Over a period of about 12 to 18 hours, we all I was astonished that the hon. Member for Luton saw water levels rising. It was obvious that something South (Gavin Shuker) claimed that because his leader had gone very wrong with our pumping system, particularly had been making noises about consumer bills, all of a the big pumping station at Carr lane. sudden people are concerned about water bills. If the I became very angry when speaking to Yorkshire hon. Gentleman had attended past debates or followed Water on the telephone, because it was impossible to what many of us have been doing in our constituencies, obtain any answers. The company failed to communicate he would know we have for many years been complaining with residents at what was the most important time for about the fact that our constituents are paying more but them—when they were being flooded. Many of those we are not seeing the return in investment in our people have medical conditions that require treatment, infrastructure. I thought that adding that political element but power was going off, and there was still no into a debate that had generally been consensual was communication. When the local authority, East Riding beneath him. In response, I have tried to make a wholly of Yorkshire council, tried to descend on the site, it was non-partisan speech. initially warned that it would not be allowed to enter, so There have been improvements in our area. My it had to invoke its powers. All that was completely hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness unacceptable. (Mr Stuart), who is present and takes a great interest in Since then the position has changed significantly, these matters, will know of the transfer tunnel created thanks to the outcry from me and from local residents, in Hull which has helped to protect the Hull catchment and I am pleased to say that we have had a completely a lot better. In Yorkshire, we have seen investments in new experience with Yorkshire Water. The company has the pipe network, which was in an abysmal state before invested £3.6 million over the last 18 months to improve privatisation, with massive leakage. We have also seen our pumping capacity by 20%, and 18 December will investment in my constituency. see the publication of a flood catchment study which it Some good stuff has been done under privatisation has funded and has cost a quarter of a million pounds. by Yorkshire Water, Severn Trent and Anglian, but we That is all great news, but I must nevertheless ask why now need somebody to stand up for the consumer my residents and my constituency were put in such a where these companies are not acting as responsibly as position in the first place, given that it had been clear they should. I hope the Government will respond to this 213 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 214

[Andrew Percy] earns £1,091,000; Liz Barber, the director of finance and regulation, earns £476,000; and the communications debate by making sure the powers are in place to ensure officer earns £165,000. these companies act responsibly towards their bill payers, who, after all, provide them with everything they have. Frank Dobson: May I urge the hon. Gentleman not to use the word “earns”, because it has a sensation that they deserve the money? The best way to describe it is 6.26 pm probably to say that they are “being paid”. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): The cost of Julian Smith: The right hon. Gentleman’s intervention living is a major issue in Yorkshire, as it is across the rest is very accurate. of the country. I therefore pay tribute to the Government for acknowledging that we need to deal on every level Those highly paid—highly compensated—board with the cost of living, and this debate is at the very members showed no contrition about how tough it is at centre of what we are doing. the moment for consumers. They basically said that they would not budge on their stretching of the tax The policies the Government have come up with to rules to ensure that they paid no tax. We talked about get every energy consumer on to the lowest tariff are the clause in their commitment to customers where they exactly the right thing to do, and I hope the review of said that they would be responsible and that they were green levies and Labour’s £125-worth of green taxes environmentally and socially engaged, but they just will enable us to reduce energy bills, too. As my hon. would not listen. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham Andrew Percy: These figures are incredible. Does my (Mr Redwood) have said, addressing water bills will be hon. Friend share my concern that these people are another big step, by making the industry more competitive being paid these million-pound salaries but they still and ensuring we have a water industry that is fit for the have not responded to my request, on behalf of my future. constituents, to pay compensation to people who were Giving businesses the opportunity to switch will enable flooded because their assets failed when the company big users of water to get the very best deal. It is failed to manage them? unfortunate, however, that that opportunity will not be available to the consumer. I agree with my right hon. Julian Smith: I absolutely do, because the situation is Friend, who urged the Government to push ahead, a kick in the teeth from Yorkshire Water to hard-working where possible, with consumer-led competition. My people in Brigg and Goole. constituents really have only one option, which is Yorkshire Water, unless they happen to live in Long Preston, near We asked the management team about their debt Settle in the western part of my constituency, where standing at 84.5% of regulated capital value at the end they have their own water trust, which enables them to of March in contrast to the figure of 56% when the guarantee much lower prices. company was acquired. We asked them how they explained their £63 million of shareholder dividends in 2012 I wish to focus on Yorkshire Water because my hon. quadrupling to £256 million in 2013. We asked them Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) how they could seriously defend, in these tough financial is correct: Yorkshire Water has done some positive times, a dividend payment of 27.3% of 2013 revenue. things on infrastructure, and it has also done some We asked them to enlighten us on the risks of having good, and some bad, things on flooding, but the financial more than £4 billion in debt and what would happen if situation and decisions of Yorkshire Water show that it things went wrong. We asked them how they explained is exploiting my constituents and people across Yorkshire. the quagmire of vested and conflicting interests between If Members have not read the Yorkshire Water annual the different board structures— between investors and report, perhaps I should recap. In 2013 it made an the company and the various Yorkshire Water subsidiaries. operating profit of £331 million on a turnover of And we asked them how they could explain the claim in £936 million. Average increases in bills were 6.6% with their annual report that these complex financial the average bill being £356. There was a quadrupling of arrangements led to lower bills for customers, given that the dividend payment, from £62.3 million to £256 million bills actually went up by about 7%. The answers were in the past year. The thing that really sticks in the craw not weak or woolly—they were non-existent. of my constituents is the fact that despite those massive I welcome the measures that the Government have dividends and huge opportunities for its shareholders, taken on tax reform and the general anti-avoidance Yorkshire Water paid zero tax in the last financial year, rule. That is a shift from prescriptive rules to a general and with a highly leveraged balance sheet. When we rule, which is the right thing to do. However, should Her compare that behaviour with the behaviour of my Majesty’s Revenue and Customs really be having to constituents, the small and micro-businesses throughout wage an uphill struggle against a monopoly business my rural constituency, we see that today’s debate and that is providing customers with one of the most the one we will continue to have about holding the feet fundamental services and utilities in the world? of the water companies to the fire is vital. The Government have done a lot on tax, but I urge People will say that Yorkshire Water has done nothing them to go further. I urge them to use things such as the illegal, and it has not, but we thought as Yorkshire MPs Water Bill to implant exciting and novel policies from that we should take that from the horse’s mouth, so we the Treasury and look at whether we can taper the level invited the senior management team down to Westminster. of deductions received for interest charges in corporation Let me list that team: Kevin Whiteman, the chairman, tax as shareholders take on more debt. Can we impose earns £1,077,000; Richard Flint, the chief executive, a bank levy on debt? Could we look at how to impose a 215 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 216 levy payable by shareholders to customers so that the of approximately 9% whereas water companies make cost is not simply passed on to customers and instead operating profits of approximately 30%. While shareholders they gain a share themselves? have seen their dividends increase, families across the Somehow, we must stop this limitless offsetting of country have suffered. Last year, regional water companies interest against tax. We should push on with greater made a pre-tax profit of £1.9 billion, paying out dividends competition and consider ensuring that a percentage of totalling £1.8 billion to shareholders, yet they have not profits goes back to customers. We should knock Ofwat seen the need to pay their fair share in taxes. As The about until it works vigorously in the interests of the Sunday Times revealed, in 2012-13 Thames Water, which, consumer first, second and third. We should consider as we have already discussed, has asked to increase bills everything in the industry and say clearly to companies by a further 8%, made £127 million of pre-tax profit such as Yorkshire Water, “No. No more. This has to and paid zero corporation tax. change.” We should shake this industry up from top There are further examples, as we have heard from to bottom. the hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) and others. Yorkshire Water made £184 million and paid no tax, and Southern Water paid just £6.5 million 6.35 pm tax on profits of £172 million. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Water companies have been able to reduce their tax I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to the liabilities to such tiny levels by substantially increasing debate on behalf of the Opposition, Madam Deputy their levels of debt. Some water companies have reduced Speaker, and I apologise for my slight tardiness at the their tax bills by offsetting the interest payments on start. I meant no disrespect to the Chair. debt, often inter-company and involving tax havens, I congratulate the hon. Gentlemen on securing this while claiming allowances for spending on infrastructure. excellent debate, although I suspect that their ministerial Shareholders and bosses, as we have heard, have benefited colleagues in the Department will be less keen to thank from that aggressive tax avoidance, with eye-watering them after hearing some of the issues that they have salaries going to those at the top. Peter Simpson, chief brought to the House today. executive of Anglian Water, received a package worth Three and a half years into the life of the Parliament, £1.27 million in the last year, up from a mere £1.06 million and with the regulator expected to have completed its the year before. The complex nature of tax governance price review by the end of next year, it is well worth and the growth in debt has been recognised by Jonson reviewing the track record of the coalition Government. Cox, the chairman of Ofwat, who described the ownership It is regrettable that, having by general consensus inherited of these companies as complex and “opaque” structures. a substantial body of work from the previous Labour Julian Smith: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Government on how to reform the water industry, the coalition has frittered away so much of the past 40 months. Thomas Docherty: I will not, because there were so I am at a loss to understand what, if anything, was done many speakers and we have very little time for the in the first year and a half of this Government. When Minister to speak. they came to office in 2010, the new ministerial team Ofwat has highlighted that the overall proportion of inherited not one but two reports on the water industry equity has diminished from 42.5% in 2006 to 30% of from Anna Walker and Martin Cave. Both reports had regulatory capital today, with some companies obtaining been favourably received by consumer groups, customers, only one fifth of their financing from equity. regulators, industry commentators and Parliament. The So why the delay in reform? Why has the coalition reports, which complemented each other, provided a dragged its feet? Why have the coalition parties seemed clear framework for reform. In fact, the only organisations so unwilling to champion the household customer, small that did not welcome their recommendations were some businesses and the taxpayer? It is because this coalition of the water companies. Government serve the vested interests, not the interests It is not surprising that those who were found to have of ordinary Britons. Ministers have done nothing to let down their customers—whether domestic, in the help hard-pressed small and medium-sized enterprises public sector or in private business—were the ones who because they are too busy cosying up to their friends in were less than enamoured with the possibility of reform. the City. Labour understands that when small businesses The stories of poor customer service are legendary—we are struggling to survive thanks to the failed economic have heard many such cases today—as are the dividend policies of the Chancellor, the Government should standing returns paid out by many of the water companies. The up for them, not their fat cat friends. arrogance of the companies has been astonishing. The After three wasted years, we have no progress on tax avoidance measures, coupled with a refusal to plough social tariffs for those who are struggling the most and excess profits back into either infrastructure improvements can afford to pay the least; no pressure brought to bear or a lowering of bills, are simply unacceptable. on water companies to adopt permanent solutions to Even now, when household budgets are continuously flood insurance, without which hundreds of thousands squeezed by inflation-busting utility bill increases, many of families up and down the country face uncertainty; of the water companies show a breathtaking arrogance and, as we heard earlier, no substantial progress on by refusing to pass back any of their profits to consumers. water competition—a series of measures that would For example, Thames Water, having recorded eye-watering help our cash-strapped businesses grow our economy. returns for its investment, now expects hard-pressed It has been four months; 16 weeks; one hundred and customers to foot the cost of the Thames tunnel. sixteen days since the Secretary of State met the water Water companies are some of the most profitable in companies. Last week, we had the unseemly spectacle of the utilities sector, earning even more than energy the Prime Minister briefing against his own Ministers companies. Energy companies make operating profits and officials as panic set in on the Downing street spin 217 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 218

[Thomas Docherty] Select Committee. He should have written the speech himself, instead of giving a speech that was written for operation, which reacted to the pressure placed on it by him. He could have done much better himself. my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, and the Labour party, to stand up to the water companies. Thomas Docherty rose— We had days of Downing street briefing that action would be taken, either through regulation or by instructing Dan Rogerson: The hon. Gentleman did not take Ofwat to take action on water bills. interventions, so I shall follow his lead and try to In short, we were all anticipating a big announcement respond to some of the issues raised in the debate. We from the coalition parties. And in the end, what did we will have plenty of opportunity to come back to his get? A letter. One thousand words. A missive to the comments. water companies from a Mr Paterson, of North Shropshire, I congratulate the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie which said, in effect: “Dear chief executive, Thanks for Elphicke) on leading the charge to secure the debate. He coming along in July for cream tea; our last discussion wanted to send a clear message to Ofwat and particularly was so riveting that I clean forgot to write about it until to the water companies that consumers expect more now! I know that times are awfully hard for you at the now. They want a fairer deal to cope with the cost of moment, with your offshore investors demanding an living and to reflect the fact that the water companies even greater return on their money than last year, but it have had some good years. They have had much lower would be awfully splendid, as we’re all such good chaps, borrowing costs in recent years than was predicted if you could not put your bills up by quite as much next when those prices were set. The hon. Gentleman is year as you were thinking about doing. It would really looking for some flexibility during the current price help me out of this political pickle the Prime Minister review period for those issues to be taken on board. has put me in, and I know that you’re all such good eggs. Best wishes, Mr Paterson.” Clearly, that is a matter for the regulator. Ofwat is being far more assertive in the message that it is sending The Secretary of State’s letter is clear evidence that to the water companies. It has the power to revisit the the Government do not understand the cost of living current price settlement, but in particular circumstances. crisis here in Britain today. For 39 out of 40 months Ofwat’s discussions with water companies are obviously under this coalition, prices have risen faster than salaries. focused on the coming price review period. It will want Until this weekend, water bills were not a priority for to see whether water companies come forward with any the Prime Minister or the Department. After three and suggestions. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of a half squandered years, a hastily cobbled together State pointed out in his letter to the water companies, statement of vague promises of future action is simply they are in far better circumstances than were predicted not enough. It is clear that the Prime Minister is unwilling at the beginning of the current period. As a Government, or unable to stand up to the vested interests that have we are supporting Ofwat and providing political cover. placed the needs of offshore tax haven investors ahead If Ofwat is looking for a deal from water companies of those of hard-pressed householders and businesses. that more accurately reflects current circumstances, it Families deserve better than this; small businesses has the political back-up to do that. I welcome the signs deserve better than this; Britain deserves better than that Ofwat is indeed doing that. this. Since privatisation in 1989, water bills have increased The issues surrounding investment are crucial. The by almost 50% in real terms. The Secretary of State has right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras spoke the guile to call the water industry one of the great about the simple business of a couple of pipes in the successes of privatisation. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is ground catching the rain water and sending it on. That only a success story if you are fortunate enough to own was the case once upon a time. There are also the issues shares in one of those companies. of what happens—how can I put this delicately?—after the water has been consumed by the consumer. What 6.44 pm used to happen is that a pipe would be installed, as I know all too well, representing a coastal constituency, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for and the waste would drift out into the Atlantic ocean. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson): That is not acceptable now and we expect a far better This has been a fascinating debate. Contrary to what standard of treatment for sewage and better solutions the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas to deal with the problems. That is why we have much Docherty) just said about my attitude, I welcome the better bathing water quality than we used to have. debate. It is a foretaste of the discussions that we will have on Second Reading of the Water Bill and in Frank Dobson rose— Committee and subsequent stages. Today’s debate has been a useful opportunity for Dan Rogerson: I will not give way. I accept what the hon. Members to raise a range of issues such as affordability right hon. Gentleman says about what he considers and the practices of water companies, and also local simple problems. Yes, we want the water companies to issues such as flooding, development and the history of do better on price, but we also want them to continue water supply going back to the locally owned water investing and improving. We have a responsibility to provision that the right hon. Member for Holborn and deliver better environmental quality. We have seen St Pancras (Frank Dobson) spoke about. I will come improvement in that but we want it to go much further, back to some of the comments of the hon. Member for so we want the investment to continue. We will have the Dunfermline and West Fife. It is a great shame that he opportunity to consider some of these issues on Second finished off his speech as he did. He knows quite a bit Reading of the Bill, so perhaps we can come back to the about these issues and enjoyed dealing with them in the more technical issues at that point. I know that hon. 219 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 220

Members on both sides of the House will want to However, I accept what the right hon. Gentleman engage with me in the run-up to that and I look forward said about the challenges monopolies present, which is to some informal discussions, as well as the discussions why we want first to move towards allowing businesses, on Second Reading. charities and so on to have the benefit of competition. I pay tribute to my ministerial predecessor, my hon. We also want them to look at how they can simplify, so Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon)—he that businesses with many sites across the country, for is not currently in his place—who did a huge amount of example, can have one unified bill. That would be a work to get us where we are. Some Opposition Members huge saving for them and would allow far more claimed that nothing has happened over the past three transparency, rather than having separate bills for every years, but nothing happened over the 13 years they were site. in office, other than reviews. Her Majesty’s Opposition A number of hon. Members mentioned the tax situation seem to stake their reputation on a number of reviews, and financing. Some of those points are for the Treasury, but they did nothing on the back of them. This Government rather than me, but they have had the chance to put will look at that work and the evidence provided and do them firmly on the record. Many of them have been something, such as dealing with the inequality in the campaigning on that outside this place, which I know south-west and the problems people there face, which they will continue. I know that Ofwat is listening to that Anna Walker looked at, and the issue raised by the Cave carefully. One of the things it is keen to do with water review, which looked at the water industry as a whole. companies is look at how it regulates to encourage This Government are taking action. transparency and overcome opaqueness, which relates The Government are also looking at flood insurance, to what Jonson Cox has said. The companies that take a because the previous Government left the clock ticking more responsible attitude to engaging with consumers, on an agreement that was about to evaporate. We have feeding back their information and being open about negotiated something that will now be delivered in a what they do can be regulated in a way that reflects that, Bill. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for and those that refuse to engage with that progress will Newbury for being at the forefront of delivering that be the ones that Ofwat will want to investigate much settlement. We look forward to debating that as we take more closely and have close conversations with in future. the Bill through the House. That is the sort of approach that I very much welcome. Having mentioned Ofwat a number of times, I should The hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) also pay tribute to the Consumer Council for Water for talked about leakages. He said that although water its work as the voice of the consumer, which has not companies have improved, they could do much better been mentioned in the debate so far. and there is still a long way to go. I absolutely agree. The Several hon. Members raised the issue of bad debt, important point is that we still see companies investing and I am pleased about that. We have been very clear in the infrastructure to put it right and get a better that we want the companies that have done less well on solution to the problems. That is why in all our discussions that to look to the examples of those that have done on price we must ensure that we get the balance right so much better in offering a better deal, and to try to build that we can continue to see that investment. on that work. We heard an interesting exchange between the hon. The hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Member for South Swindon and the hon. Member for Shelbrooke) talked about development issues. Water Dunfermline and West Fife on household disconnections. companies have the opportunity to give an input into It was not clear to me whether the hon. Member for that process, but so does the Environment Agency in Dunfermline and West Fife was recommending that relation to flooding, and that is important. We want to water companies should have that power. I hope that see housing growth in the economy and investment in that was not the case, because it is certainly not something housing for people who are desperate to get on to the the Government want to reopen. housing ladder or, indeed, to rent. We have to get the right balance in that process. Thomas Docherty indicated dissent. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) posed a number of Dan Rogerson: I am pleased to see that is not something challenges and raised detailed issues that I am happy to the hon. Gentleman wants, because we certainly do not. discuss with him as we move towards the Second Reading We hope to see some benefits through retail competition, of the Water Bill and its progress into Committee. but we want to do that carefully. This is a huge area of The hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew reform and a big change. That might slightly disappoint Percy) raised issues about flooding and infrastructure the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), investment. It is important that we encourage companies who looks forward to a time when there will be an to continue to invest to overcome these problems at the ample supply of water for everybody to enjoy in all same time as bearing down on price. The hon. Member sorts of ways and when we will not have such nasty for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) talked about things as metering and restrictions. There are other transparency and the tax framework. He also noted reasons for metering which relate to energy use and that some consumers feel that they have very little voice environmental concerns, because whatever we do to in what is being done with the money that they hand reform the retail side will not suddenly and hugely over to the water companies in their bills. Ofwat is increase the amount of water. We will work on abstraction taking a much tougher line on this, and I welcome that. reform and encouraging new people into supply, but Our approach in the Water Bill is to look to update that does not necessarily mean we want to abandon our the structure of the industry to deal with some of the commitment to using the water we have efficiently and problems we have heard about, but not to try to step in managing our resources effectively. and do what Ofwat is there to do. It is the regulator, 221 Water Industry5 NOVEMBER 2013 Water Industry 222

[Dan Rogerson] Many Members, including the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury said, and my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon it will regulate. We will therefore make sure that there (Mr Buckland), expressed concern about Thames Water, are opportunities for it to make any proposals that it particularly its tideway tunnel. Yorkshire MPs, including thinks will improve the Bill. If there are things we are my hon. Friends the Members for Brigg and Goole not doing in primary legislation or it wishes to see (Andrew Percy), for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) change, it will be able to get involved in and develop and for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke), noted those things without having to come back to this House that Yorkshire Water could do better, as its school or the other place. report might say. I was fascinated by the speech of the The Government’s approach to this issue is a responsible hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker), who one. Knee-jerk reactions that undermine the strengths was until recently the shadow Minister; he spoke with of the regulatory system could be immensely damaging. great passion about social tariffs. A stable, independent regulatory system is vital in keeping I thank Front Benchers on both sides of the House bills affordable. Small changes to the industry’s financing for foreshadowing the Water Bill debates; it was fascinating costs can have a significant impact on customers’ bills. to watch a dry run. The shadow Minister, the hon. In that context, I reiterate my strong support for Ofwat’s Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas drive to secure efficiencies and improvements through Docherty), took the somewhat Maoist approach that the price review and other measures that will allow us to 2010 was year zero, and the Minister explained the keep customers’ bills as low as possible while ensuring Government’s direction. I hope that the Government that we can continue to attract significant, low-cost have listened to this debate and will consider the matter investment in the sector. further. I thank hon. Members for bringing this issue to the Question put and agreed to. attention of the House. The interest and passion expressed Resolved, by Members displayed the importance that we all place That this House has considered reform and infrastructure of on the matter, and I assure them that it continues to the water industry and consumers’ bills. receive the highest level of attention from the Government. We will return to many of these important aspects of Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): On a the industry as we move towards the Second Reading of point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In the past the Water Bill in due course. hour the BBC has been reporting more than 1,000 job losses in UK shipyards. If correct, that has major 6.57 pm implications for families up and down the country and Charlie Elphicke: This has been an excellent debate. in particular for our sovereign capability and skills In particular, we heard a very fine speech by my hon. retention. Has the Secretary of State for Defence given Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), any indication that he intends to give a statement to the who was an outstanding Water Minister and served House? with distinction. It was interesting that we had the old left-right battle, with the right hon. Member for Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): As the Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) saying, “Up hon. Lady will know, that is not a point of order. If she nationalisation”, while others, such as my right hon. wants to pursue the matter, I am sure she is already Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) and considering the options open to her during the next my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury, championed parliamentary day. We will not deal with it now and we what private investment can achieve. will certainly not deal with it through the Chair. 223 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Bullying (School Transport) 224

Bullying (School Transport) bullying in general. Although the intention of the survey was to focus on the dedicated school bus, anecdotal Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House evidence suggests that the situation is not much better —(Mr Evennett.) do now adjourn. on public service buses. To put the level of responses in context, it should be 7pm noted that bullied children feel that making an issue of Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): bullying could make matters worse. Although the children On 12 December 2006, 11-year-old Ben took his own ought to feel safe because they are anonymous for the life after being persistently bullied on a dedicated school purposes of the survey, the responses indicate that they bus in Sussex. The bullying incidents were reported on a still feel vulnerable. It is also common for such children number of occasions, but still the end result was this to have low self-esteem, which makes them feel that the dreadful tragedy. Had it just been his peers he may well bullying is their fault and that no one will think that have withstood the bullying, but the bus driver decided they are worth bothering with. to join in and, in his parents’ view, this took the situation The responses to the survey indicate that there is a to another level. As Ben saw it, here was an adult—someone significant problem with bullying on dedicated school to look up to and who represented authority—taking buses. That has had serious consequences for many of part in his denigration. Ben’s parents have since moved the bullied children. Thirty respondents reported self- to my constituency and I have met his father on many harming, 24 considered suicide and 97 just wanted to occasions. Over the years, Mr Paul Vodden has spent an hide away. Fear, anger and embarrassment were also enormous amount of time working with charities associated significant reactions, which adds to the concerns. with protecting children from bullying and he met a children’s Minister with me during the previous The survey indicates that most bullying on the school Government’s time in office. bus starts when the student commences secondary school in year 7. One hundred and two respondents said that In 2010, a year after the publication of Government the bullying started in that year, which is 40% of the guidance on tackling bullying on journeys to and from respondents. Children in the top year of primary school school, a survey carried out by 4Children and me are confident of where they fit within the school and of showed that the majority of local authorities did not their peer group. Moving to secondary school puts have a safer travel policy in place. The survey found that them at the bottom of the pile, with all the pressures out of 67 local authorities, 60% did not have a safer and insecurities that that engenders. The move from travel policy and 52% did not have a safer travel team. year 6 in primary school to year 7 in secondary school Of those local authorities that did have a safer travel should therefore be recognised as a time of particular policy, only 50% said it covered all forms of bullying vulnerability. That vulnerability is compounded by the and only 38% said it covered all forms of journey. fact that children are often moving from a small primary The chief executive of 4Children said that the school where they know most of their fellow students to implementation of anti-bullying policies outside the a much larger secondary school with many more pupils, school gates has been slow, with many local agencies perhaps from a greater variety of social groups. That is still not working together as well as they could. Mr Vodden a particularly interesting finding and something that said: could easily be cross-referenced with other research. I “In my opinion, this incident represents a small tip to a very wonder whether the Minister has further evidence on large iceberg of misery for many children who have a hard time on that point. We know that school transition can be their way to and from school on dedicated school buses. In what other situation would we expect an untrained and unqualified difficult in many other respects. adult to be in sole charge of 50 or more children and to do Mr Vodden concludes that it is clear that the role of another complex task at the same time”? the driver is significant. Only four drivers were recorded This August, Mr Vodden completed his report on his as taking action to alleviate bullying, whereas 41 were own online survey to assess bullying on dedicated school reported as taking no action, even when many of them buses. The aim of his survey is to attempt to determine were reported as knowing what was going on. A worrying the extent of bullying on those buses and the involvement, 17 drivers were reported as joining in. if any, of drivers. The report demonstrates that a number Only six respondents knew about the safer travel of problems still exist and they need to be urgently policy. Although 69 respondents knew that their school addressed. I have sent the Minister details of the had an anti-bullying policy, it is worrying that an almost methodology used by Mr Vodden and today I want to equal number did not. A significant number of respondents look at his conclusions. did not know who to turn to in the event of bullying or The situation on the dedicated school bus is, by its whether the school had any systems in place to deal nature, potentially problematic as far as bullying is with bullying. That might indicate that the school did concerned. Children are placed on a school bus in a not have an effective system in place, if any. Although a group, the composition of which they have no choice few respondents reported that support was forthcoming over. There is no formal supervision and virtually no from the school and that practical, effective action was opportunity of avoiding conflict situations. In other taken, a large majority reported that they received little social situations, such as during playground play, there help from school staff. When help was provided, it was is at least the potential of formal supervision by a generally found to be ineffectual. teacher, access to supportive peers and the opportunity That part of the analysis shows how patchy anti-bullying of escaping unpleasant situations. However, as we know, policies are across schools. I have seen some excellent even in the playground, bullying is not easily avoided. examples of good practice in schools in my constituency. Mr Vodden’s survey aims to be a realistic snapshot It is clearly necessary to ensure that good practice is of what is happening on dedicated school buses and a spread. There is also a question over how much leadership general indication of the effects and consequences of there is from the local authority and over what is 225 Bullying (School Transport)5 NOVEMBER 2013 Bullying (School Transport) 226

[Annette Brooke] adequately understand the complex nature of bullying, and appear unclear how to deal with it. The responses happening in academies and free schools. ChildLine indicate a lack of joined-up thinking between the relevant and other helplines are important because they allow agencies when dealing with bullying, and an absence of children to discuss bullying, but children are still highly a coherent strategy or clear procedures. Schools are likely to need practical support from their school. Good required to enforce measures that will encourage good mentoring from older pupils can be particularly useful behaviour and prevent all forms of bullying, including in helping children to overcome their reluctance to talk the provision of an anti-bullying policy, but the results to adults. of the survey indicate that in many cases that is not My husband recently led a working party on anti-bullying properly implemented. Even when systems are in place policies across Poole. He concluded that the local authority to deal with bullying, they may be ineffective. needs to promote wider discussions with schools to help Owing to the complex nature of bullying and the them understand bullying and must give schools greater varying needs of both the victims and the bullies, it is assistance in dealing with individual cases. He found essential that any procedure for identifying or dealing that governors need to develop a more proactive role with bullying should be flexible and applied specifically and challenge or encourage their schools to develop to the individuals involved. It is self-evident that children— and implement anti-bullying policies. He said that like the rest of us—are individuals and must be dealt partnership working must be developed in conjunction with as such. Any procedure must be efficient and with the expansion of an anti-bullying programme, effective to alleviate the bullying without delay. It is which could provide for the greater inclusion of parents. important to assess accurately what is taking place, but It is interesting that that separate piece of work came up it is potentially risky to undertake a painstaking investigation with the same areas where more needs to be done. before taking speedy action. Mr Vodden’s survey shows that bullying takes place Mr Vodden’s conclusions and recommendations include on dedicated school buses and that it involves both a properly trained adult or “chaperone” other than the verbal and physical abuse such as spitting, punching, bus driver to be provided for all dedicated school buses, slapping and pushing. He concludes that, apart from particularly on longer journeys, and that all dedicated some notable exceptions, bullying on school buses is school bus drivers be given appropriate training in how clearly an area of child vulnerability that has received to behave when dealing with children, how to respond insufficient attention. In what other situation are as in the event of bullying, and how to avoid becoming many as 50 or more children forcibly restricted in a involved in the bullying itself—I have asked the previous confined space for up to an hour, with a single, untrained Schools Minister about that issue on a number of adult present, who is undertaking a separate task that occasions. Mr Vodden recommends that all dedicated requires their full attention? When students are taken school bus drivers should be assessed as suitable and on school outings, the ratio of adults to students is safe to transport children; that it should be made clear strictly controlled and there are always a number of to all which agencies and individuals are directly responsible helpers. for resolving incidents on the school bus; and that those Drivers of school buses, whether public service routes individuals must be properly trained. In Ben’s case, the or dedicated school services, are recruited on account of parents went to the school repeatedly, but nothing their training, qualifications and ability to drive a bus. I happened as far as the bus journey was concerned. It is make a plea for a requirement for some training for so easy to separate school departments from transport people who drive a bus with those vulnerable pupils. As departments at local authority level. a minimum safeguard, most local education authorities Mr Vodden also recommends that a professional of course require drivers of dedicated school buses to body of experts and practitioners in child behaviour undergo a Criminal Records Bureau check, but additional should be created to set up and frequently monitor a training and assessment is needed to ensure that such national procedure for assessing and dealing with bullying. drivers are able to relate to children and equipped to That should be flexible and take into account individual deal with the childish behaviour that is bound to happen. requirements. Every school should have in place an The findings of the survey indicate that there is a risk of efficient, effective and up-to-date procedure for dealing school bus drivers reacting inappropriately towards the with bullying, ideally including peer mentoring schemes young people in their charge. At best they may fail to with proper pastoral care for students. notice or to report peer bullying, thus leaving vulnerable Clearly, this survey has been carried out in response children without a responsible adult to turn to. At to a heartbreaking tragedy and a father’s passion to try worst, either through ignorance or wilful intent, they to ensure that better support is given to children like may themselves take part in acts of bullying. Ben who suffered so much. Seven years on, many Mr Vodden asks whether the driver of a bus can improvements could still be made. I commend the whole reasonably and safely be expected to monitor children’s piece of work—the survey—to the Minister. There is behaviour while giving their full attention to the serious scope to cross-reference with other pieces of research to undertaking of driving. If not the driver, however, come up with further ideas to build on the good work where is the “responsible adult” who can intervene to that the Department for Education already supports. I safeguard children from bullying during their daily should like to request a meeting with the Minister and journey to and from school? That question requires an Mr Vodden to discuss that further. urgent and unequivocal answer. A number of charities do excellent work for bullied The psychological effects of bullying on children are children, and I thank all of them. Mr Vodden specifically potentially long term and significant even in the short mentions the anti-bullying ambassadors scheme operated term. It seems from the responses given in this survey by by the Diana Award—a cheap and highly effective victims of bullying that a number of schools do not system for implementing peer mentoring in schools—and 227 Bullying (School Transport)5 NOVEMBER 2013 Bullying (School Transport) 228 the counselling work undertaken by Kidscape, and says When contracting to provide school transport, local they are of particular value in dealing with children in authorities can instruct companies to include anti-bullying extreme cases of bullying. However, all hon. Members procedures as part of their tenders. I strongly urge them know that bullying happens and will continue to happen. to do so. No doubt they, like me, will be interested in The worst situation is when a school suggests that no Mr Vodden’s recommendations in developing their policies. bullying takes place, because it is most likely to be Only by taking collective responsibility will we be able happening somewhere. We must face up to the problem to eradicate poor behaviour in our schools and wider and not believe that school transport, as something that communities. happens outside the school, is nothing to do with the I recognise that the majority of pupils travel by teacher in charge of bullying policy, and the governors, public transport that is provided by private companies. who must support the school’s anti-bullying policy. Let It is for those companies to determine the training of us ensure that everybody pulls together so we can do their staff. Responsible providers of any service, whether our very best to avoid tragedies such as Ben’s. a private company, a charity or the state, should take into account its interactions with young people and other vulnerable groups when developing safety policies, 7.16 pm and they should act when they encounter bullying. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education Members of the public not directly involved with schools (Elizabeth Truss): I congratulate my hon. Friend the or services for children have a responsibility to play Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette their part in keeping children safe and reporting poor Brooke) on the powerful case she has made concerning behaviour, in the wider interests of the community. It is bullying on school transport. Bullying in any form and important that we all take responsibility for dealing for any reason is totally unacceptable and should never with this scourge in our society. be tolerated. It can instil fear, damage self-esteem and Bullying is not a specific criminal offence in the UK, reduce academic attainment. Sadly, it can lead to the although in some circumstances it can constitute a most tragic consequences. criminal offence: for example, under the Protection I am aware of the case of Ben Vodden—the son of from Harassment Act 1997, the Malicious Communications my hon. Friend’s constituent, Mr Paul Vodden—who Act 1998, the Communications Act 2003 and the Public sadly took his own life following bullying on school Order Act 1986. The Home Office’s Anti-social Behaviour, transport. I very much admire the fact that, since the Crime and Policing Bill, which is currently working its tragedy, Mr Vodden has devoted time and energy to way through Parliament, contains provisions allowing a looking into this issue with a view to ensuring that no range of bodies—including the police, local councils other children and their families suffer in the same way. and other agencies—to apply for an injunction to prevent I know that bullying is very high on the list of parents’ nuisance and annoyance in order to tackle antisocial concerns about education and children going to school. behaviour. The injunction is designed to stop or prevent behaviour whereby someone has engaged, or threatens I should like to set out the Government’s approach to to engage, in conduct capable of causing nuisance or tackling bullying in and around school. Children and annoyance to any person. Bullying is a behaviour that young people can be bullied in and out of school, and could fall into that category. The injunction could be on the way to and from school. To tackle bullying used to stop emerging antisocial behaviour before it successfully, the whole community and all those who escalates, and to protect victims from bullying in and provide services that include children and young people around schools and colleges and in the community, and need to work together to change the culture, so that all from cyber-bullying. For example, the injunction could forms of bullying are unacceptable. stop a perpetrator associating with the victim outside of Being victimised restricts a group’s or child’s use of school or college, or from entering named areas in the their area’s amenities, such as parks, playgrounds and community. leisure facilities, and can lead to one group gradually Schools have a key part to play in preventing and dominating a territory. For example, some children do tackling bullying. Behaviour and bullying are closely not play outdoors because they are scared of being linked. All schools must have a behaviour policy, with bullied. Whether children are in groups, clubs or residential measures to prevent bullying. It is up to them to develop care, on the streets, in parks, or using public or school their own strategies, but they are now clearly held to transport, they should feel safe from victimisation and account for their effectiveness in doing so by Ofsted. discrimination. The number of criteria in the Ofsted inspections framework As my hon. Friend has pointed out, local authorities, has been reduced from 27 to four. Of the four that local safeguarding children boards, the police, schools remain, one is behaviour and safety, which requires and parents all have a role to play by intervening to school inspectors to take into account bullying, harassment prevent and to respond to bullying. Local authorities and discrimination. We have made that criterion a core have a duty to safeguard and promote the welfare of part of the inspection regime. children under the Children Act 2004, which includes To ensure that teachers have the powers they need to tackling bullying. Authorities can develop their own maintain discipline and enforce school rules, the approaches to tackling bullying, including by employing Government have introduced a number of reforms, dedicated staff such as anti-bullying co-ordinators, or including stronger powers to search pupils, the removal by commissioning support from the voluntary and of the requirement to give parents 24 hours’ written community sector. It is important to recognise that notice of after-school detentions, and a clarification of different solutions may be appropriate in different locations, teachers’ power to use reasonable force. Schools that and that local authorities have a responsibility to deliver excel at tackling bullying have created an ethos of good those solutions. behaviour where pupils treat one another, and school 229 Bullying (School Transport)5 NOVEMBER 2013 Bullying (School Transport) 230

[Elizabeth Truss] ambassadors. I recently met representatives from The Diana Award and year-11 student Henry Doran, an staff, with respect, because they know it is the right way anti-bullying ambassador at the Magna Carta school in to behave. The best schools develop a more sophisticated Surrey. I was incredibly impressed by what Henry told approach whereby school staff proactively gather me about how they had created a much more positive intelligence on issues between pupils before they become culture within the school and how he enjoyed his role a problem: they prevent bullying from occurring in the helping the other children. At a recent reception in first place. That might involve talking to pupils about Downing street celebrating that impressive programme, issues of perceived difference in lessons, in dedicated I was told about the smile and compliment days—I events or projects, and in assemblies. said I thought it would be good for us to have them in My hon. Friend made a very good point about the Westminster sometimes. It is a really good project. transition from primary school to secondary school, What is nice is that it accentuates the positive—it is the not just with regard to academic attainment, but to opposite of a bullying culture—creating a positive culture confidence and how pupils fit into a new school. That in which people compliment each other and focus on needs to be explored. In general, we are concerned their similarities and strengths, rather than the issues about that transition. dividing them. So that is very good. Successful schools involve parents to ensure that they Secondly, we are giving just over £250,000 to Kidscape are clear that the school does not tolerate bullying and to work in nine of London’s most economically deprived that they are aware of the procedures to follow if they boroughs to train primary school professionals to deliver believe their child is being bullied. They involve pupils, preventive and remedial strategies. Thirdly, we are giving so that pupils understand the school’s approach. They £1.5 million to Beatbullying to train 3,500 11 to 17-year-olds regularly evaluate and update their approach to take over two years. Fourthly, we are giving £1.5 million to into account developments in technology—for example, the National Children’s Bureau consortium to focus on the role of computers and social media. They implement bullied children and young people with special educational disciplinary sanctions, so that the consequences of bullying needs and/or disabilities, working with 900 schools and reflect the serious nature of the incident, and they have with parents, carers and school staff to reduce the open discussions about perceived differences before they bullying of these children and the impact when it occurs. become problematic. It is important that schools work As we have heard, bullying can blight the lives of with the wider community, including the police and young people and result in tragic consequences. We do children’s services. not want other children and their families to suffer as We acknowledge that tackling bullying outside school Ben Vodden and his family have suffered. We all have a is challenging, but we have been clear that teachers have part to play in helping to prevent and tackle bullying the power to discipline pupils for poor behaviour, including wherever it occurs—whether in the school, the wider bullying outside the school gates. Where bullying outside community or on school transport—to ensure that no school is reported to school staff, it should be investigated children have to suffer mistreatment. My hon. Friend and acted upon. If the misbehaviour could be criminal asked if I would meet with her and Mr Vodden. I would or poses a serious threat to a child or another member be happy to do so in order better to understand the of the public, the police should be informed. The issues at a local authority level: what prevents local Department has issued advice to help schools prevent authorities from using their powers to make changes—she and tackle bulling, making it clear that teachers have mentioned the survey—and how we can ensure that the power to discipline pupils for bullying incidents on good programmes, such as the anti-bullying ambassador school and public transport and on the journey to and programme, become more widespread in our schools. from school, when it is brought to their attention. That will help us to change the culture in our schools and create a positive environment where learning can I agree completely with my hon. Friend about the take place. excellent organisations working in this area, some of which the Department funds. We are providing four Question put and agreed to. organisations with £4 million over two years from spring 2013. First, we are giving £800,000 to The Diana Award 7.29 pm to identify and train 10,000 pupils as anti-bullying House adjourned. 1WH 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians (Middle 2WH East) Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): I am sure Westminster Hall that my hon. Friend is aware of the problems for Armenians both within Armenia and in Turkey.

Tuesday 5 November 2013 Fiona Bruce: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning two of the numerous countries where Christians are suffering. I hope that the debate will highlight many [HYWEL WILLIAMS in the Chair] more. The recently produced evidence-based and measured Persecution of Christians (Middle East) report by Aid to the Church in Need, which is available in full at www.acnuk.org/persecution, shows that Christians Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting in the middle east are subject to widespread and intense be now adjourned.—(Mark Lancaster.) acts of violence motivated at least in part by religious hatred, and that violence and intimidation are now 9.30 am much more serious than in preceding years, and certainly Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): It is a pleasure to since ACN’s last report in 2011. speak on this topic under your chairmanship, Mr Williams. The report catalogues a preponderance of anti-Christian The number of Members in the Chamber testifies to the violence, including attacks on Christian homes, churches debate’s importance. and businesses, and the kidnapping of Christians for Article 18 of the universal declaration of human reasons connected with their faith; court cases, including rights states: those involving blasphemy allegations; key political developments affecting religious freedom, including new “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or or amended constitutions, travel permits for clergy, belief; and freedom, either alone or in community with others and Government statements, policies causing Christians in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, difficulties; planning regulations, which similarly cause practice, worship and observance.” difficulties for church building projects; and Government Freedom of religion is a fundamental human right. attitudes towards Christian engagement in political debate When citizens are prevented from enjoying that right, and voting rights. Many social changes have resulted in the social, political and cultural implications can be restrictions and limitations on Christians’ access to serious, as the debate will show. The loss of other employment, education and health care, and there is human rights can swiftly follow. The debate is therefore pressure to change religion on pain of death. important not only for Christians, but for all religious groups and minorities, and indeed for everyone seeking David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate to live out the dictates of their conscience in worship, the hon. Lady on securing this important debate. Many teaching, practice and observance, respectful of others’ years ago, Christians in this country were burned at the right to do likewise, and under the protection of a state stake because of their belief and their faith. It is estimated striving to achieve that positive vision under the rule of that 130 countries around the world persecute Christians. law. That is a far cry from the reality for many Christians Every hour, a Christian is tortured and murdered in the middle east. somewhere in the world. Surely, in this day and age, something more can be done to protect people and their Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I faith. congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. She is being characteristically generous in giving Fiona Bruce: I absolutely agree. We should be crying way. It is right that we should stand up to champion the out with the same abhorrence and horror that we feel cause of religious freedom across all religions and faiths, about the terrible atrocities towards Jews on Kristallnacht but is it not a stark fact of Christian persecution that and on other occasions in Germany during the second 80% of all discrimination is against Christians? world war. Analysing 30 countries, the ACN report indicated Fiona Bruce: My hon. Friend is quite right. Christianity that in only four had the situation for Christians improved, is the most persecuted faith worldwide, so the problem and in three of those the improvement was only marginal. exists not only in the middle east, but globally. In six, there was no change, but that was only because The former Chief Rabbi, Lord Sacks, in his the situation was so bad already. Persecution in the outgoing interview with The Daily Telegraph, discussed middle east region was the greatest concern of all. the persecution of Christians in the middle east with the deepest concern of any current issue, saying that Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ “this is a human tragedy that is going almost unremarked… it is Co-op): I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. the religious equivalent of ethnic cleansing. We are seeing Christians The report to which she refers does not cover numerous in Syria in great danger; we are seeing the burning of Coptic countries, including Malaysia, which is not in the middle churches in Egypt. There is a large Coptic population in Egypt, east, but the situation there is of significant concern. Is and for some years now it has been living in fear. Two years ago the last church in Afghanistan was destroyed, certainly closed. she aware of the recent decision in Malaysia to ban There are no churches left in Afghanistan. Between 500,000 and Christians from using the word “Allah”, which has been 1 million Christians have left Iraq. At the beginning of the used in Malay as a term for God for centuries? It has 19th century, Christians represented 20% of the population of the effectively outlawed the Bible, particularly in the Christian Arab world, today 2%. This is a story that is crying out for a eastern states of Malaysia. Is she concerned about the public voice”. wider ramifications in other parts of the world not Let us be that voice today. covered by the report that she cites? 3WH Persecution of Christians (Middle 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians (Middle 4WH East) East) Fiona Bruce: I am very concerned about that and the convictions for ill-defined crimes. The Church that I problem has global implications. I hope that, as a result, attend here in this country is a member of the AOG we will have many more debates in the House on the denomination. persecution of Christians in other regions of the world. The ACN report discusses how, in virtually every Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Martin country in and around the middle east region, Christians Luther King said: report suffering either high, high to extreme or extreme “In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, persecution. That includes Egypt, Yemen, Sudan, Saudi but the silence of our friends.” Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and In that regard, I want to put on the record my concern Pakistan. In virtually every one, the situation has worsened for Farshid Fathi, who has been in Evin prison in since ACN’s last report in 2011, except in Iraq, but only Tehran since December 2010. He is serving a six-year because the attacks in 2009-10 were so large in scale. sentence simply for wanting to run a church, and he has a wife and two young children. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): In this context, it is important to recognise that there is Fiona Bruce: I am delighted that my hon. Friend has one state in the middle east with a proud record of mentioned that person. It is an outrage that citizens of allowing a large degree of religious freedom, irrespective countries such as the United States are being detained of other elements of the problems that it faces within its in prisons in Iran. borders: Israel. I hope that my hon. Friend will say a In October, CSW reported that four members of a few words about how religious freedom, at least, is Christian Church were sentenced to 80 lashes each for protected in Israel, not just for the 2% of its population drinking communion wine during a communion service, who are Christian, but for the 16% who are Muslim. contrary to rules against the drinking of alcohol. That effectively criticises and condemns the Christian sacrament Fiona Bruce: My hon. Friend is quite right, which is of sharing the Lord’s supper, and criminalises it. why I did not include Israel in the list that I read out. The report does not include it among the areas of Open Doors states that, despite promising words extreme persecution. I respect what is being done in “from Iran’s newly elected President, Rouhani, the situation Israel, although I must say that concerns are now being for Christians in the country has not improved.” expressed in Palestine about increasing persecution there. An Iranian lawyer, Attieh Fard, told a recent meeting The report says: of the United Nations Human Rights Council: “Christianity may yet remain the largest world religion, but its “It is obvious that the Islamic government of Iran has taken claims to universality—a truly global presence on all five continents— actions to prevent access of both Christians and the public to may soon be lost as it becomes the prime victim in the emergence Christian societies, to churches, to Christian literature and religion, of theocratic states where minority faith groups—most especially despite the Christians’ constitutional, national and international Christians—have no place, except perhaps as third-class citizens.” rights.” Anti-Christian repression in Saudi Arabia is more Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): I am sorry severe than anywhere in the region, although we hear that I am unable to stay for the Minister’s reply. Is it not precious little about it. Non-Muslim places of worship one of the most shocking features of the situation that a are forbidden, conversion from Islam is punishable by number of the countries on the list are ones with which death and the small number of indigenous Christians our country has significant ties? Several are significant who practise their faith in extreme secrecy risk raids recipients of British aid, so we should have leverage in and arrests. some of the heart-rending cases that my hon. Friend I will discuss what is happening in Syria in a moment, has mentioned. and also what happened to the Christians in Iraq following the US-led invasion of 2003, when hundreds of thousands Fiona Bruce: That is absolutely right. I hope, if time were forced to flee their homes following targeted attacks, permits, to come to that point, although I am most many by Islamist militants. willing to take as many interventions as Members wish, because that demonstrates the interest in the subject. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I thank The plight of Christians in Iran was highlighted by the hon. Lady for giving way and apologise for arriving an all-party parliamentary group report on the persecution late. I hope she will mention Egypt and the situation of Christians in Iran, and I pay tribute to my hon. with the Coptic Church and the problems that Christians Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), are experiencing. who chaired that inquiry. The situation has not improved since we produced that report. In September, Christian Fiona Bruce: I will indeed, time permitting. The suffering Solidarity Worldwide wrote to the Foreign Secretary to of the Copts in Egypt is a critical issue. say that Iranian civil society has experienced intense Christians in the middle east have suffered from a repression, including the continuing detention of journalists, domino effect of violence that began in Iraq, spread to human rights defenders and political activists. Syria and overshadows Egypt, leaving the survival of With regard to freedom of religion or belief, despite the Church in jeopardy. According to reports, Christians Christianity being recognised in the Iranian constitution, are leaving in droves, ending the presence of the Church a campaign of arrests that initially targeted the house in its ancient heartlands. We must remember that Paul’s church movement has been extended to the Government- conversion was on the road to Damascus. That is a key sanctioned Assemblies of God—the AOG denomination part of the Christian story and heritage. Such countries —with hundreds of Christians detained in raids in cities formerly had large Christian communities—Syria had across the country, forcible closures of churches and more than 1.5 million, and a similar number in Iraq is 5WH Persecution of Christians (Middle 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians (Middle 6WH East) East) now down to about 300,000—so those are tragic reductions Christian home and destroyed evidence of the inhabitants’ in countries where there are large numbers of the faithful. faith. At least seven were killed, and most of the village’s Persecution is also happening in countries such as Yemen, residents were forced to flee. Christians who fled said: where the faithful are few in number. “Let history record that Maaloula is crying today.” A growing trend is the use of rape as a weapon. In Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I congratulate my early 2013, a fatwa was issued, via YouTube, that called hon. Friend on securing this debate. On the situation in for the rape of women who were not Sunni Muslims. A Syria, one of the greatest tragedies is that it was that tragic example is the horrendous ill-treatment of Mariam, country that offered a haven to refugees, Christian and a young Christian woman from al-Qusayr. She was of other faiths, during the civil war in Lebanon from forcibly married to a man who raped her on the same 1975 to 1990, and indeed during the war and civil war in day. Later that day, he repudiated the marriage. The Iraq, and yet, in Syria now, Christians and others are next day, another Islamist man did exactly the same. It being persecuted. continued day after day. For 15 days, 15 different men abused her in this way. Finally, when she was showing Fiona Bruce: That is absolutely right. Barnabas Aid signs—unsurprisingly—of mental instability, they killed reports that until 2011, Syria was one of the freest her. She was just 15 years old. places to be a Christian in the middle east. It was a Christian Church leaders are being kidnapped and place of sanctuary for Christians escaping persecution disappearing, including two senior bishops, Yohanna in Iraq. Suddenly, all of that has changed. Christians Ibrahim and Boulous Yazigi. I am informed that they made up a sizable minority—around 10% of the are of the same seniority as the Bishops of Liverpool population—and were allowed to live out their faith and of Manchester; if they had been kidnapped and without much hostility from Muslims around them. had disappeared, and were possibly dead, there would The Patriarch of Antioch, Gregorios III, said that it be an international outcry. We should exhibit the same was often Christians who provided a bridge between response. disparate Muslim groups in the region. They had a For many years, Christians in Syria have formed a collegiate approach towards living there. However, as cohesive part of the community. At the launch of the clashes between Government forces and opposition fighters report that I have referred to, the Patriarch of Antioch, escalated into the brutal civil war that the country has head of one of the largest Christian Churches in the experienced, Christians emerged as particular targets country, said movingly in this place: for rebels who assumed at times that Christians were “AllSyrians are our brothers and sisters—we have no enemies—yet Government supporters. we are victims. We have not asked for weapons and I have told my As Islamist bands have become some of the most parishioners, ‘don’t seek arms.’ We are a church of reconciliation prominent groups among rebel fighters, Christians are and we are seen by many Muslims as the only one—let the rest of Europe hear that. Persecution is not in our history and we have a increasingly being targeted. We hear, for example, of long history of collegiality in the region. Let us understand our one village where the parish priest has to collect $35,000 role and mission—both the historic one and one going forward. a month to pay rebel groups to protect the Christians But you cannot have a role if you are not present.” from armed attacks. That is outrageous, but that is what In Egypt, we hear that despite the persecution they is happening now. engender, Egyptian Christians have forgiven their Recent estimates put the number of Christians who persecutors and are not retaliating. Although it has have fled Syria at between 450,000 and 600,000—about experienced enormous hardship, the response of the a third of the Christian population before the atrocities Coptic community has been one of unprecedented non- began. Barnabas Aid estimates that about 600 have retaliation. In some areas, they stand hand in hand with been martyred for their faith. For those who stay, the Muslims—I pay tribute to the Muslims standing with picture is bleak. The report that I mentioned states that them—to protect their churches from further damage. entire populations of predominantly Christian villagers Muslim families in lower Egypt have given blankets to around Homs fled for their lives in 2012. In February Copts who have lost their homes. this year, rebel fighters invaded al-Thawrah, seized Christian Since the fall of the Islamist Government in Egypt, homes, confiscated possessions and threatened people Christians have seen no improvement in their condition. with death because they did not comply with sharia law. On the contrary, they are suffering one of the worst On 27 May this year, rebel fighters massacred almost periods of targeted violence against them in modern 40 men, women and children in the Christian village of history. More than 140 attacks have been documented Dweir on the outskirts of Homs. Some victims were since the middle of August—a “reign of terror”, as it tortured before being murdered. has been called by Christian Solidarity Worldwide. The report’s authors told of meeting Syrian Christian As I have said, we bemoan to this day the persecution refugees in Jordan, who had been told while they were of the Jews in Germany, but in August 2013, The Times in Syria: reported ransackings of homes, hospitals and schools “Don’t celebrate Easter or you will be killed like your Christ.” similar to those that took place in 1938, when Jewish On 17 August this year, the Christian area of Wadi synagogues and buildings were ransacked and pillaged. al-Nasara, called the valley of the Christians, was attacked. It stated: Church buildings were targets. In January this year, “Dozens of churches, homes and businesses have been set church attacks were condemned as war crimes by Human alight and looted in Egypt, forcing millions of Christians into hiding amid the worst bout of sectarian violence in the country’s Rights Watch. On 4 September, the historic Christian modern history. Some Coptic Christian communities are being village of Maaloula—one of the few places in the world made to pay bribes as local Islamists exploit the turmoil by where Aramaic, the language of Jesus, is still spoken—was seeking to revive a seventh-century tax, called jizya, levied on attacked. Rebels linked to al-Qaeda went into every non-Muslims.” 7WH Persecution of Christians (Middle 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians (Middle 8WH East) East) [Fiona Bruce] we really must get over that and find a way round it. It must not inhibit us from acting; millions of people’s The morning after the terrible attacks in mid-August, lives and livelihoods are at stake here. Others have Bishop Kyrillos William Samaan of Assuit told staff of rightly remarked on the sheer complexity of such a Aid to the Church in Need that, during a spate of daunting task, but I again say that we cannot leave violence against Christians, nearly 80 churches and the lives of those millions of people in the “too hard to other centres were attacked in less than 48 hours. Fear do” box. of attack means that thousands of Christians are now I recognise that substantial endeavours have already too afraid to leave their homes. He said that in some been made by Foreign Office Ministers and officials to villages, people were heard crying: address the challenges, for which I thank them. Those “Save us. We cannot go out of our houses.” endeavours include the Foreign Office toolkit on freedom Joe Stork, the acting middle east director of Human of religion or belief, the new conferences on equality Rights Watch, has reported that dozens of churches are taking place at Wilton Park, and the new equality and in ruins, and that non-discrimination team in the Foreign Office human “Christians throughout the country are hiding in their homes, rights and democracy department. afraid for their very lives.” I want to ask the following questions. What steps can Only last week, a young Christian minister was kidnapped, the British Government take to help translate into tortured and killed when his family could not pay a positive action and support the grave concerns of millions ransom. How long can we remain apparently indifferent of Christians around the world about the plight of their to regular reports of the abduction, forced conversion fellow believers in the middle east? What actions are the and marriage of Christian girls, and to the accompanying Government taking to call to account the Governments violence, rape, discrimination, beatings and abuse? responsible, either directly or indirectly, for the persecution I accept that growing militant Islamism is not the of Christians and, indeed, other religious minorities in only reason why Christians are being attacked—there is the middle east? For example, what calls have been also political instability, poverty and desperation resulting made on the Iranian authorities to ensure that President from the displacement of refugees—but that issue Rouhani fulfils his promise to release all political prisoners, nevertheless poses a real threat to other societies. As including prisoners of conscience, and to ensure that Barnabas Aid reported in mid-September, the nation’s new constitutional procedures do not contradict “Western Muslims are going to fight alongside jihadists in its international obligations, under the international Syria…returning home to become potential jihadists themselves. covenant on civil and political rights, to guarantee the Western countries are not fully grappling with this problem.” full enjoyment of freedom of religion or belief for all religious communities? Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I, too, What action can be taken to urge protection of the congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this important Coptic community in Egypt, to help address the culture debate and highlighting the issues so eloquently and of hate speech and impunity in which attacks occur, powerfully.She has mentioned several middle east countries, and to ensure the emergence of a society in which all but may I raise the issue of Lebanon? The Syrian Egyptians can flourish, regardless of their religious or refugee crisis is affecting Jordan, Turkey, and particularly political affiliation? What actions are the Government Lebanon, where there was a delicate balance between taking to assist Governments who are grappling with an Shi’as, Sunnis and Christian groups. There is great upsurge in violence by those responsible for atrocities concern that the mainly Sunni influx will result in a very against Christians and other minority religious groups big change in Lebanon’s demographics, with big effects in the middle east? for the Christian community in particular. Does she share my concern? What action are the Government taking to assist the growing numbers of internally displaced people and Fiona Bruce: I share the right hon. Gentleman’s concern. refugees forced from their homes directly as a result of He is absolutely right that the massive influx into Lebanon persecution? I recognise that the Department for is putting enormous pressure on medical services and International Development has allocated the generous institutions. One problem is that Christian refugees in sum of £500 million to support Syria—I believe that is many places in Syria are frightened to use official UN one of the largest donations in the world—but as I said camps, because of fear of persecution and attacks even earlier, the particular problem of Christians who are within the camps, and therefore have to seek aid elsewhere. struggling to get aid support because of their faith In this debate, I want to call on the UN to look at what needs to be addressed. can be done to ensure that official places of refuge, such What action are the Government taking to assist as UN camps, are secure and safe for Christians and, other Governments in rooting out religious discrimination indeed, any other religious minorities suffering in the against Christians in educational institutions, and where same way. there is institutionalised anti-Christian bias in curriculums I turn to my requests to the Minister, who I am sure and cultural practices? Some fundamental organisations would not want me to conclude without making some. I appear to be able to tap into significant financial resources. appreciate the utter complexity of challenging the situation How can strategies be developed to reduce such access? in the middle east, and that deep-seated sensitivities can Although I accept that the Minister is from the Foreign be engendered by addressing the issue of religious Office and not from DFID, many of the issues relate to persecution in general, and the persecution of Christians the work of both Departments. I ask DFID to identify in particular. More than one person has commented to freedom of religion or belief as a new priority in its me that addressing the issue could be seen as promoting work, and to recognise that where article 18 of the colonial or neo-colonial attitudes. I respectfully say that universal declaration of human rights is breached, 9WH Persecution of Christians (Middle 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians (Middle 10WH East) East) the impact on women, which is a priority for DFID and I, too, believe that to be the truth. Just as one did not in the current review of the millennium development have to be Jewish in the 1970s to care about dissident goals, can be particularly acute. Jews in the Soviet Union, or to be black to be outraged I call on DFID to recognise the contribution that by the apartheid regime in South Africa, one does not promoting freedom of religion or belief can make in have to be a Christian today to see that the defence of achieving other societal goals such as gender equality, a persecuted Christians should be a towering priority. reduction in discrimination and social exclusion, the I was pleased to meet Baroness Warsi and other prevention of conflict and the promotion of regional Members last week and to read the interesting report stability; and the contribution that healthy civil society prepared by the APPG on international religious freedom. bodies, including faith groups, make in many cultures to Of great interest was the fact that 75% of the world’s help promote security and prosperity. It should also population live in countries with high levels of Government recognise that while religious freedom concerns are restriction on freedom of belief, and that became evident predominantly issues within individual states, they can during the so-called Arab spring. Some 100,000 Christians and will escalate into larger national and international will be killed in a year—one every hour—and 2 million problems with significant global implications if they are will be persecuted. Such statistics put the matter into not addressed, as we are seeing in the impact on Lebanon. perspective. With our current economic issues, it is clear Countries with high levels of religious restrictions that many people are concerned with their own difficulties. can be breeding grounds for terrorism and political None the less, I have been overwhelmed by the amount instability, and that can result in large numbers of of people who regularly contact my offices to ask me to refugees fleeing violence. Will the Minister accept that do all I can to use my position to bring about an end religious freedom should be seen as a human rights to Christian persecution. The stories that are relayed to concern and be prioritised in our foreign policy? I call me are shocking in their intensity. on DFID to renew its “Faith Partnership Principles” A century ago, about 20% of the population in north document, which was referred to just last week in a Africa and the middle east were Christian, according to meeting of the Select Committee on International Open Doors, but that figure has now dropped to just Development, in a reply to a question that I raised with 4% of the population, which is due to persecution. The the Secretary of State for International Development. I percentage drop does not indicate how many of those have the utmost respect for the Secretary of State, and I people were murdered or forcibly or even voluntarily genuinely mean that. She is doing a remarkable job with displaced, but it does indicate that there may be no a very wide brief. On reading the document, I saw that it Christian presence left in the middle east in my son’s was written some years ago, and that it focuses more on lifetime—or even in my own lifetime. To those who the impact that faith groups have on delivering aid, and might question what role we have to play in that working with the Government to do that, than on international story, I say that it is a very important one. addressing the persecution of Christians and other It is my role and that of the House to support Christians religious minorities as a human rights issue. As this who are persecuted and targeted merely because of debate shows, the time has come for that priority to be their choice of worship. The hon. Member for Congleton stated and defined. has given evidence of other parts of the world where Will the Minister consider all the recommendations persecution is rife. As the debate is specifically on the in the recent report, “Article 18: An Orphaned Right”, middle east, I will keep my comments entirely on that published by the all-party parliamentary group on region. international religious freedom, of which I and several A quick glance online at Christian Persecution Info other Members in the Chamber are members? Will he will reveal many headlines and stories. In Iran, we learn also provide us with a written response to that report, that 80 lashes were given for the taking of communion which makes too many recommendations for me to wine. It is unbelievable that such a small thing in reality—it enumerate here? is important to Christians because of the importance of holy communion—can bring about such persecution. Several hon. Members rose— We also learn that the violations of the rights of Christians, most notably converts from Islam to evangelical Protestant Hywel Williams (in the Chair): Seven Members have groups, continue unabated. A UN report in October said that they wish to speak. I intend to call the Front-Bench said: speakers at 10.40 am, so I appeal to Members to keep “Authorities continue to compel licensed Protestant churches their remarks brief and to the point, and to restrain to restrict Persian-speaking and Muslim-born Iranians from themselves in interventions, if they can. participating in services and raids and forced closures of house churches are ongoing. More than 300 Christians have been arrested 10.3 am since 2010 and dozens of church leaders and active community members have reportedly been convicted of national security Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the crimes in connection with church activities, such as organizing hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) on bringing prayer groups…and attending Christian seminars abroad.” this important matter to the Chamber and on allowing In Egypt, a man, woman and young children who us all to have a chance to have a say in the debate. were all Christian were killed at a drive-by shooting at a Christian persecution is an important issue. Although I wedding. In Saudi Arabia, there has been a call for the always have my constituency in my heart, I believe that I destruction of all churches on the Arabian peninsula. must stand up for those who are persecuted throughout According to Jihad Watch, a Kuwaiti parliamentarian the world—in this case, Christians in the middle east. In presented a Bill that would ban the construction of any the debate pack for this debate, it says that new non-Islamic religious buildings in the emirate. However, “the global war on Christians remains the greatest story never the call in Saudi Arabia went further than that. It told of the early 21st century.” insisted that all existing churches be demolished, as 11WH Persecution of Christians (Middle 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians (Middle 12WH East) East) [Jim Shannon] speak up about it, but they are members of all our family who are suffering, and anyone who is concerned Islam is the only religion permitted on the peninsula. about freedom of religion feels that; it is not the exclusive The ruling is based on the hadith of Mohammed, who preserve of Christians but is felt by anyone who cares said: about a good society and wants to stand up for common “There shall not be two religions on the peninsula of the freedoms, and the desire for freedom of religion is very Arabs.” much a common concern. We will hear today from Again, that is a very insidious and very specific persecution other Members who do not share the Christian faith of Christians. with us but very much share that same passion and desire for freedom of religion. It is quite right that we The village of Maaloula, a symbol of Syrian Christian are all united across the House and across the faiths on tradition where Aramaic is still spoken, is now a ghost this issue. town. The bodies of Christians lie along the roads of that small village north of Damascus after it was invaded The term “Christian persecution”is sometimes bandied by Islamist insurgents last month. about carelessly. In this country, we can talk about Christian persecution, but let us just remind ourselves The list goes on and on. There will be no Christians that if there is Christian persecution in this country left in the middle east if we continue at such a rate. That then at worst its victim is likely to be sued, but in the fear is based not on percentages, but on the fact that middle east the victim will be killed. That is the stark there are literally millions of people who live in fear reality that we are facing and that is why we are focusing every day. today on Christian persecution in the middle east. I will conclude now, because I am conscious that As I say, Christian persecution is a reality in the other Members want to contribute to the debate. I middle east, but I will particularly focus on Iran. As has plead with the Minister, the Foreign and Commonwealth been mentioned, Christians in Parliament, the all-party Office and the Department for International Development group, produced a report last year on the persecution of to do all they can to help stop the persecution in the Christians in Iran, but now sadly we need to produce an middle east and to ensure that support filters down to update on how such persecution has been extended. the downtrodden Christian families who suffer every Hassan Rouhani has been elected and religious freedom day to enjoy the freedom that we take for granted in this in Iran formed part of his campaign pledges. He said in place. I stand with my friend and colleague, the hon. his election campaign: Member for Congleton, and ask the Minister to take action today and use the influence of this House, “All ethnicities, all religions, even religious minorities, must feel democratically and politically, to stop ethnic cleansing justice”. from taking place in the middle east. We cannot allow it We have to challenge that and ask how there has been to go on simply because it is a difficult area with intense justice for Christians in Iran, even in the time that he problems. has been President. What he was doing in making that remark was effectively referring to the Iranian constitution, 10.9 am article 23 of which states: “The investigation of individuals’ beliefs is forbidden, and no Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I one may be molested or taken to task simply for holding a certain congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton belief.” (Fiona Bruce) on securing this debate. That principle has been overridden by sharia law, which Why are we particularly focusing on Christian has taken precedence on this issue. However, the basic persecution? The reason has already been given, but it is constitutional work in Iran, and indeed the pre-revolution worth emphasising. I am sure, Mr Williams, that you heritage of Iran, was about having sympathy with religious would like me to focus particularly on the middle east, minorities and the Iranian people here in Britain hang but the reality is that in a disturbing total of 139 nations their head in shame at what is happening in their Christians face persecution, which is extraordinary. country now in the name of Iran and its current regime, We have already heard various statistics, but it is and that has continued under the watch of Rouhani; the worth reminding ourselves of one statistic from the situation in Iran for all religious minorities, but particularly Centre for the Study of Global Christianity, which has for Christians, has continued to deteriorate. worked out that 11 Christians are killed around the Just at the end of last month, two Christians in Iran world every hour, seven days a week, 365 days a year, for were lashed for drinking communion wine; they were reasons related to their faith. And increasing numbers punished simply for partaking in a sacrament that has of Christians are being killed in the middle east, which obviously been practised for centuries, since the time of is why it is right to focus on the region. Jesus. Two other Christians in Iran are now awaiting the Is this a debate just for Christians? There are a same punishment for drinking communion wine. In number of Christians here, including members of Christians Iran, Christians continue to be arrested, detained and in Parliament, the all-party group, but there are other interrogated, before harsh sentences are handed down Members who are here who are not Christians, and on erroneous, trumped-up and political charges, on the quite rightly so. It is right that we should recently have basis of protecting security, and those sentences are heard the words of Pope Francis when addressing the upheld on appeal. general audience. He said: Our all-party group’s report on Iran particularly “When I hear that so many Christians in the world are suffering, highlighted the concerns that exist for the house church am I indifferent, or is it as if a member of my own family is movement, the members of which have suffered appalling suffering?” persecution. In addition, there is now visible persecution Christians very much feel that members of their family— of people in churches, including of people in Orthodox brothers and sisters—are suffering and they need to churches. Also, the Catholic Church in Tehran has been 13WH Persecution of Christians (Middle 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians (Middle 14WH East) East) pressured by the Iranian authorities into barring Persian- world today are directed at Christians. Like others, I speaking Iranians. Why is that? No doubt, it is because shall use my brief contribution to refer to the persecution the regime presumes that such people are from a Muslim of Christians in Iran, drawing on a visit that I made last background and it wants to suppress any profession of year to Turkey, with my hon. Friend the Member for Christian faith by them. Previously, such treatment has Bootle (Mr Benton). While we were there we briefly met been limited to Protestant Churches, but now it is being the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), extended across the board. who was in the country. My hon. Friend and I were We have had the September session at the UN General guests of Elam Ministries, a UK-based charity that Assembly, and perhaps we are seeing a thawing of supports Iranian Christians. Our visit contributed relations with Iran. Eighty prisoners of conscience were evidence to the Christians in Parliament report, which released from Iranian prisons. So can we sit down and has been referred to and was published last October, say, “All is good now in Iran.”? We have to recognise and which was put together by the hon. Member for that two of the Christian women released were near the Enfield, Southgate. end of their sentence. Also, when Iran says that it is Iran has a population of 74 million. We do not know trying to be good and says, “Yes, we are going to release how many of those people are Christians, but it seems all prisoners of conscience,”we must look at the individuals clear that the number of Christians in Iran is increasing, concerned. Mr Williams, I hope that you and the Hansard perhaps quite quickly. Some estimates put the number writers will forgive me, but I need to put on record the as high as 1.5 million, or 2% of the population. The names of the 16 Christians who are serving time in jail regime in Iran has certainly retaliated against the growth in Iran whom we know of and who can be named. They of Christianity with a concerted propaganda campaign. are Maryam Zagaran, Farshid Fathi, who has already It is strictly forbidden for Christians to talk with others been mentioned, Farhad Sabokrooh, Shahnaz Jaynaz, about what they believe in, and Churches that reach out Nasser Zamen-Dezfuli, Davoud Alijani, Mostafa Bordbar, to non-members have had leaders executed and members Mojtaba Hossein, Mohammad-Beza Partoei, Homayoun imprisoned and tortured. Congregations live under the Shokouhi, Vahid Hakkani, Ebrahim Firouzi, Saeed constant threat of arrest and violent interrogation. Abedini, Shahin Lahooti, Alireza Seyyedian and Behnam The situation has not always been like that, though. Irani. Forgive my pronunciation of their names, but the We were told that, after the Islamic revolution in 1979, point is that these people need to be released if Rouhani the regime was, on the whole, tolerant of Christianity is to make good on the promises that he made. and of other minority religions—those religions are I wish to give others an opportunity to speak, protected under the Iranian constitution—but things Mr Williams, but we must recognise that despite the changed rapidly for the worse, as the evidence gathered suffering that these Christians experience, they deal for last year’s Christians in Parliament report showed. with it with incredible grace, humility and fortitude. Christian Solidarity Worldwide has also noted since the Farshid Fathi recently wrote: beginning of 2012 an increase of harassment, arrest, “How can I complain about my suffering when my brothers trial and imprisonment of converts to Christianity in and sisters are paying a high price for their faith all over the cities across Iran. world? How can I complain?” The renewed wave of repression has affected both the Today, we can complain on their behalf. In fact, we can house church movement and approved denominations. properly take the words of the Catholic Patriarch of There are tight restrictions on officially recognised Churches. Jerusalem, Fouad Twal, and I will finish by quoting We were told that, with few exceptions, churches can no him. We have already heard that Israel is very much set longer hold services in Farsi—the first language—and apart from concerns about freedom of religion, by that services are not allowed on Friday, which is the contrast to the countries that neighbour it. In 2011, official day off. That means that going to church is Fouad Twal said: likely to involve taking time off work and possibly “Does anybody hear our cry? How many atrocities must we giving up half a day’s pay. Those who attend services endure before somebody, somewhere, comes to our aid?” are closely monitored. Churches must submit lists of The opportunity for the Minister today is to respond members, with their identity card numbers, so that to this debate and to show that the Government take churchgoers can be easily traced. Recognised Churches these atrocities seriously and will complain and ensure find it increasingly hard to obtain permission for that the relations between Iran and the UK are thawed. maintenance work on their buildings. Human rights and the freedom of religion are central to While in Turkey, my hon. Friend the Member for restoring diplomatic relations with Iran, and Iran must Bootle and I were told that the harshness of the Iranian respond to our recommendations. We must ensure that regime contrasts starkly to the warmth and tolerance of we use all the channels that we can to stand up for the Iranian people. Iranians are proud of their rich persecuted Christians in Iran. history of poetry and literature. Despite the persecution, the Church in Iran is growing rapidly. The Iranian 10.17 am Christians whom we met in Turkey made the point to us that the regime’s propaganda against Christians is widely Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I also welcome the disbelieved. That was demonstrated dramatically when opportunity to take part in the debate and congratulate we spoke to some remarkable Christians we met, who the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) on had gone to Turkey for safety. securing it and on her consistent attention to this pressing One of our destinations was Kayseri—a big, modern and important topic. Turkish city of about 1 million people, with an ancient We have already heard the statistic, which I think fortress at its centre. We visited an Iranian church there, comes from the International Society for Human Rights, one of quite a large number of churches made up of that 80% of all acts of religious discrimination in the Iranian exiles that meet in Turkey. This one meets in a 15WH Persecution of Christians (Middle 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians (Middle 16WH East) East) [Stephen Timms] “behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee modest flat at the top of a low-rise block above shops. into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod We met there a man who, with his wife, was imprisoned will seek the young child to destroy him. on a charge of When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by “action against the security of the nation”, night, and departed into Egypt: which can carry a six-year sentence. He was in prison And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be for three months, which included a month in solitary fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, confinement. It was a grim experience. For a while, he Out of Egypt have I called my son.” was in a cell with 10 others, including a journalist, an Joseph would not be very wise today to move academic and other professionals. They shared minimal from the west bank of Palestine to Egypt, because in facilities between them. August this year, there were targeted attacks on at Many of the Christians we met knew Pastor Farshid least 100 Coptic Christian churches in Egypt, as well as Fathi, whom we have heard about in the debate. I, too, Christian homes and businesses; and in September, pay tribute to him. A critic of the Iranian Government—a large mobs carrying machetes and guns attacked properties, political critic—Mehdi Khazali, who shared a cell with including the Virgin Mary and Priest Ibram monastery. Farshid last year, spoke of him in an interview: It was forced to close for prayers in August for the first “Farshid was a polite young man with a warm smile always on time in 1,600 years. his face. All prisoners in ward 350 remember nothing but kindness from him. He had an exemplary behaviour. We never saw him lose I do not intend to repeat anything that my hon. his temper. He was a kind person.” Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) excellently He is serving a six-year sentence, which began in December said in opening the debate. The freedom of religion is 2010. an important human right set out in article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights. In the few moments We met many people who had suffered in Iran for available to me, I want to say some of the things that I their faith. Some had suffered terribly, but had not think that Ministers should be doing. given up. Instead, they appeared to be even more determined to tell their fellow countrymen what they believed. One The Foreign Office should consider appointing a church in Istanbul, which offers copies of the New special envoy for freedom of religion and belief to Testament to visiting Iranians—admittedly, it is quite a co-ordinate the UK’s diplomatic efforts in this field, in small church—told us that it had recently had to stop partnership with the UN special rapporteur on freedom its evangelism because it could not fit any more people of religion or belief and the US ambassador-at-large into the building. for international religious freedom. Today’s debate has I welcome the high priority that has been assigned by highlighted that this is now an issue of such seriousness the Government, among their foreign policy concerns, that it needs to rise up the list of Government priorities. to freedom of religion or belief. I pay tribute to the hon. I hope that we can see a re-establishment of the Foreign Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) for and Commonwealth Office freedom of religion panel, the work that he did as a Foreign Office Minister, and I to bring together on a regular basis human rights and hope that this Minister can reassure us that that priority religious freedom organisations and representatives of will be maintained. religious communities. That panel could inform and I hope that Ministers making overseas visits will advise the Foreign Office on violations of, and methods continue to make a point of meeting religious minorities, of promoting, religious freedom, and on ensuring that like some of those I met in Turkey. A Minister visiting a freedom of religion and belief was part of bilateral and country such as Iran or the others that we have heard multilateral discussions with relevant Governments on about is in a privileged position, and such visits to a regular basis. religious minorities in those countries are a source of I appreciate that the Foreign Office often has a difficult huge encouragement for groups that are being persecuted. task. It wants to promote trade with countries such as At the same time, they can help to draw much-needed Malaysia, but what we heard earlier about the prejudice attention to the injustice that so many people are suffering. and discrimination against Christians in Malaysia is There are perhaps grounds for optimism in Iran: we appalling for a Commonwealth country that has regular have not yet seen much change, but at least some of the trade with the UK. We want to be reassured by Ministers right words have been said. I hope that the Minister that these issues are raised regularly. might be able to encourage us with the prospect that some of those words will indeed be fulfilled and that in It is also important to continue to exert diplomatic the months ahead there will be change for the better for pressure on Governments of nations in which religious Christians in Iran. freedom is violated, and to consider imposing targeted sanctions on key individuals or Governments responsible Several hon. Members rose— for serious widespread and systematic violations of religious freedom. I very much agree with the comments Hywel Williams (in the Chair): Order. I emphasise made by my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury again that time is short and I might have to impose a (Mr Brazier): many of the countries that we are talking time limit on speeches. about are countries to which the UK gives significant amounts of bilateral aid. Pakistan is the largest recipient of UK bilateral aid. I do not think it unreasonable that, 10.25 am in discussions about what bilateral aid we give to countries, Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): And when the wise we consider this issue and ensure that those countries men were departed, will give religious freedom to everyone, including Christians. 17WH Persecution of Christians (Middle 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians (Middle 18WH East) East) Lastly, it is important to continue to oppose robustly today on the middle east. The problems are going on, efforts at the UN to introduce religious defamation hour by hour, before our very eyes, and I am interested measures; we must work to build a coalition of support to hear what the Government will do, in practical terms. for the campaign to reject religious defamation laws, and work generally to promote religious freedom. 10.32 am Several hon. Members rose— Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): We are thinking this morning about those people in the middle east and Hywel Williams (in the Chair): I will have to impose a across the world who will wake up today to the reality time limit on speeches. Can hon. Members confine of the persecution of their faith. It may be that their themselves to three minutes apiece—less, if possible? children are barred from school, or that they have no hope of securing a job for which they are eminently qualified, simply because they have a faith that they 10.29 am refuse to renounce—which may mean unlawful imprisonment, torture or even death. We have experienced Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): that in this country in the past—the trials were conducted In January 1945, my mother, who was too young even just a few yards from here—but we have learned that to attend school, joined millions of other ethnic Germans that is no way to run a country or build a society. who were fleeing westwards from Breslau as the red Some think democracy is the answer. As we have army advanced. My forefathers had lived in that region seen in Egypt, democracy may be a necessary condition for at least nine generations, as far as I am aware. That for the long-term maintenance of human rights, but it is forced repatriation—a process that might now be called in no way a sufficient condition. Democracy without ethnic cleansing—of my mother’s family and millions the rule of law becomes but the tyranny of the majority, of other civilian groups would in future be inextricably and democracy without the rule of law based on universal linked with their ethnicity, which was largely overlooked human rights can be even worse. When we urge countries at the time in the euphoria that swept across Europe at to embrace democracy and then question why it the end of the second world war. Of course, my mother’s all goes wrong and many minorities find themselves generation never returned. in a worse position than under an autocrat, let us We are now witnessing another wave of largely unnoticed remember that the rule of law, underpinned by the civilian displacement in the middle east, with hundreds universal rights and responsibilities of individuals and of thousands of Christians being forced to flee as they their enforcement, is a precondition for democracy. We are banished from their often 2,000-year-old homelands must never forget that in the rush for universal suffrage in today’s remarkable surge in Arabian people power. and majority rule. Others have talked about Iran and Egypt, so I hope The Governments of middle-eastern countries that that I will be forgiven for saying a few words on the deliberately persecute Christians and those of other Syrian situation. Global media attention has moved non-Islamic faiths are, by keeping down or driving out from Egypt and Libya to Syria, and is focusing on the Christians, doing their countries a great disservice. Just crimes of the Assad Government and the mission to look at the example of the UK. When my Huguenot neutralise his chemical weapons, but innocent people ancestors were driven out of France after the revocation on all sides are enduring awful hardship, death and of the edict of Nantes, they fled to the low countries, to torture. Civil war does not discriminate between young Germany and to England, and they took their skills and old. with them. Courtauld brought textile manufacturing to As my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona this country, and hence, eventually, the industrial revolution. Bruce) said in her superb contribution, there are more Some estimate that the expulsion of the Protestant than 2 million Syrian followers of Christ whose lineage Huguenots from France set that country back 100 years, goes back literally 2,000 years to St Paul’s proselytising and advanced those countries that welcomed them by a in the first century AD. For those people, these are generation or two. incredibly desperate times. The unspeakable truth is Each wave of immigrants welcomed by our country that a sizeable Christian community in war-torn Syria has brought enterprise and skills as they integrated. is now at a greater threat of being ethnically cleansed Where Christian citizens are driven away or kept down, from its ancestral home than it has been for generations. it is a huge loss to that country, its people and its future, That threat is often posed by self-styled freedom fighters and the same is true for the UK. Let us recognise one of who have been fêted by the western press. Those fighters— the reasons why Christians are persecuted. They are increasingly rent-a-mob jihadists with no real stake in seen as representative of something alien—a western the affairs of Damascus—do not see those in the enclaves culture based on individualism and materialism, rather of Christians as genial neighbours whom they have than the collective good of love for one’s neighbour. lived beside for centuries. I am afraid that the sad truth That, of course, is a travesty of the gospel, but it is is that religious minorities often find their most assured understandable that outsiders think that when they see protection under dictatorships, and often it pays not to some of the products of western so-called civilisation. rock the status quo, but that should not be a convenient Finally, we must show that religious and political excuse for destroying ancient churches and holding freedom does not necessarily mean a descent into populations to ransom. materialism, loss of family and spiritual poverty, which I know others also want to speak, so I will end my is a challenge to us. It is something we can do as a comments, but we should all recognise that there are society, and as Christians, while at all times supporting major issues. The plight of Christians across the world our persecuted brothers and sisters and urging their is all too often overlooked. We have rightly focused countries to change heart. 19WH Persecution of Christians (Middle 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians (Middle 20WH East) East) 10.35 am I will keep my comments to two specific issues. First, we have heard a lot about the persecution of Christians Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I pay tribute in Syria. On Friday three Syrians, who have been given to the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), who leave to remain in the United Kingdom, visited my called for a public voice on this issue. She has been the surgery. It was moving to see three Syrians—a Christian, instigator of that public voice this morning, and we are a Druze and a Sunni—sitting together and expressing grateful to her for securing this opportunity. bafflement about the way in which the religiously tolerant Like other hon. Members, I want to talk about Iran. country they had known now posed a risk to their According to Open Doors, a charity that supports families. The three of them were grateful for the way in Christians living under some of the most repressive which the British Government dealt with their applications regimes in the world, Iran is ranked eighth on the world for leave to remain, but their key concern was for their watch list, and there are 450,000 Christians there. I families. Two of them still have significant close family hope that that figure is wrong, and that what the right members in Syria, and the third has seen family members hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) said is killed in attacks. The question that they asked, which I true—that the figure is growing, despite the huge challenges am asking the Minister today, is whether we can have of living in a country in which Christians are routinely clarity on the Government’s willingness or otherwise to detained for no reason other than the fact that they support Syrians who have moved to this country and hold different beliefs from those of the country’s leaders. whose families are still at great risk in Syria. We need an Christians are not allowed to express their faith openly, acknowledgement of that issue. The investment and whether through the written or spoken word. Indeed, it contribution we are making, in terms of humanitarian is illegal to publish the Bible in Farsi, which means that aid, is most welcome, but it is important that we remain Christians are forbidden from worshipping in their own an open door for people fleeing for their lives. language. The other issue I want to touch on was raised by my A couple of weeks ago, my church celebrated Bible hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), Sunday; in Wales, we were celebrating the translation of who shares a Huguenot ancestry with me. He said that the Bible into Welsh. I find it difficult to imagine what it it was to a country’s detriment to persecute its religious must be like to have to practise religion in a foreign minorities. The example I would give, which numerous language. That brings home the Bible verse in which the Members have mentioned, is Israel—a country in the apostle Peter calls on his readers to middle east that is often vilified, not least in this place. “live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.” When it comes to religious freedom, however, it is That is particularly apposite. Christian men and women important to highlight the difference between the way in Iran are treated as foreigners in their own land, in which Israel and neighbouring countries behave towards particularly converts from Islam, who are considered their religious minorities. more than simply foreigners or second-class citizens; The key point is that the Christian population in they are considered traitors and are routinely sentenced Israel has increased a thousandfold since the country to death or face trumped-up charges for converting. It is was established. Christians serve in the Supreme Court, no small wonder that so many have been forced to flee the Knesset and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and Iran. One of the greatest exoduses of people across the they are contributing to a stronger country. The situation modern world has been people fleeing Iran. of Christians in Israel can be contrasted with that of The Iranian regime has long sought viciously to Christians in the west bank, where the Christian population repress anyone who espouses views different from its has fallen quite dramatically. In 1948, about 15% of own, whether those views come from political opponents Palestinians identified themselves as Christian; today, or the Baha’i community, which has been ferociously that figure has fallen to about 2%. In many ways, the persecuted. Mr Ataollah Rezvani was shot in the back strongest, most economically prosperous country in of the head, and his body was abandoned by a railway the middle east is also the most welcoming of religious near Bandar Abbas, in August simply for being a member minorities. When we discuss this issue, it is important of the Baha’i community. Such persecution has led our to place on record the fact that there is, in the middle Government to condemn Iran’s human rights reputation east, a country that shows us how things can be done as “appalling” and to note that Iran’s treatment of differently, and that is leading to a more prosperous religious minorities is “shocking.” We have heard that situation for all the citizens of that country, regardless 80% of acts of religious discrimination across the world of their religion. are directed at Christians. This has been a thorough debate, and I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Congleton for securing it. 10.41 am Finally, I dedicate my brief remarks to Maryam Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): It is a pleasure to take Zargaran, who was arrested on 15 July and is still part in the debate and to speak before you, Mr Williams. languishing in Evin prison for activities and propaganda We have the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) against the Iranian regime, for creating unrest and for to thank for the fact that we are having this hugely establishing church houses. important debate. I am sorry hon. Members’ speeches were truncated, but everyone made valuable contributions, and if I am quick enough, I hope to highlight particular 10.38 am points from them. Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I congratulate my As we all know, this is an extraordinary time in the hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) middle east. The persecution of Christians there has on her superb speech. I associate myself with her remarks, moved up the political agenda; as the hon. Member and particularly her questions to the Minister. for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) said, it has, if anything, 21WH Persecution of Christians (Middle 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians (Middle 22WH East) East) become even more important. That is because of the In Egypt, the situation of Coptic Christians has been extraordinary state of flux that exists in the political extremely difficult in the past few months. There have world of the middle east as we speak. been dreadful individual events, with masked gunmen attacking Coptic Christian churches. In one particularly In the past three years, since the self-immolation of dreadful instance, four people, including an eight-year-old Mohamed Bouazizi in Tunisia, the Arab uprisings have girl, were killed at a wedding. Those are the circumstances occurred. The stability that existed—in a sense, it was Christians face in the middle east. the stability of the graveyard or the stability of oppression—under the various dictators in the region At this time, through our contact with the middle has ended. That has led to an extraordinary period of east, we need to provide a consistent voice against the uncertainty, with many in the middle east pursuing the oppression of minorities. I stress that it should be noble and difficult cause of establishing constitutions. consistent, because it is easy in some respects to criticise In Tunisia, President Marzouki is involved in the process, countries with which we do not have strong political in alliance with an Islamic party, which is in government. relations—for example, Iran. The criticism of Iran that Fundamental constitutions are being put together right we have heard in the debate is fully justified, because across the region. We must not, in any sense, underestimate individual rights there must be respected—it one of the the scale of that political task. signatories to the UN declaration. However, we must also criticise countries in the region with which we have We have heard reference to the universal declaration good relations and strong commercial bonds. We need of human rights, which is central to our debate. This to ensure that our voice is heard loud and clear on discussion is not just about Christianity—that is one individual rights and the oppression of Christian minorities aspect—but we are also talking about individual rights in those countries. If we are not consistent in our and freedom of religion. The irony is that many of the approach with Governments, our voice is diminished. countries that we have referred to—Egypt, Iran and One criticism that I hear in the middle east is that our Syria—were signatories to the universal declaration of Government—I do not particularly mean this Government, human rights in 1948. I would like the Minister to because this approach has been consistent across confirm that he will remind the Governments of those Governments over many years—are quick to criticise countries that they voluntarily undertook to commit to our enemies, but slow to criticise our friends when they the obligations under the declaration, and we want misbehave. them to adhere to them at this important time. We need a consistent and principled approach, working from the principles set out in the declaration of human The Government have done much positive work in rights, which so many of the countries in question have the past two to three years in the febrile, complex signed. I assure the Minister that the Opposition will political situation that has followed the Arab uprising. support the Government position, if they speak candidly We commend them on the work they have done on the with a clear voice to countries that oppress religious or Arab Partnership, and I have visited countries across political minorities in the middle east. We see our role as the region—from Egypt to Tunisia to Iraq—where difficult supporting the Government when they speak candidly political situations are being helped by DFID’s excellent for the idea that Governments should respect human work on the ground to build support for the difficult rights. For as long as that is their approach, that is what process of constitution and politics building. That is a we will do. long-term process, and I can tell the Minister that the Labour party are certainly committed to it over a long period. This country has a long constitutional history, 10.50 am and we know from what happened in 17th-century The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth England that the process following a revolution and a Office (Mr Hugo Swire): I thank—and we should all change of Government is difficult. In the historical thank—my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton context, it is early days indeed in the middle east. (Fiona Bruce) for bringing such an important issue to the House in such a timely manner. In her three and a We know from our postbags, and I certainly know half years in the House, she has consistently worked from faith groups and churches in Wrexham, that there hard to champion oppressed Christians. Many members is profound concern about the position of Christians in of the all-party group on religious freedom or belief are the middle east. We have heard from a number of present, and I pay tribute to all those who speak up speakers about the position of Christians across the against such oppression. My hon. Friend the Member world generally, but the difficult political situation in for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) said that not the middle east means that Christians’ position as a everyone present in the Chamber is a Christian, and I minority, albeit a long-standing and long-established looked around for humanists or others, but I think minority, is a particular threat. At this time, we must probably most of those here are Christian in one way or hold fast to the principles that underpin the United another; certainly they support religious freedom. Nations and democracy. The Government believe that people of all religious The hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) faiths or none should be deeply concerned about this mentioned Israel, and it is no coincidence that that issue, which touches on the fundamental human right country, with its tolerance for religious minorities, is a of the freedom to choose what to believe, how to democracy. For that reason, we need to commit to practice one’s faith and whether to change one’s belief. supporting the progress of democracy in the region, Such a right should be a precious part of any society. even though, as recent events in Egypt, for example, That is why the Government utterly condemn all instances have shown, that is a difficult course, which often leads of violence and discrimination against individuals or us to take one step forward and two steps back, making groups because of their faith or belief. My hon. Friend the political situation difficult to manage. the Member for Congleton asked me to ask the Department 23WH Persecution of Christians (Middle 5 NOVEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians (Middle 24WH East) East) [Mr Hugo Swire] for the second in a series of meetings to discuss international efforts to fight violence in the name of religion and to for International Development to recognise freedom of promote freedom of religion and belief for all. We religion as a priority, and I shall pass her request on to intend that to be a continuing initiative to build up the Secretary of State, about whom she rightly made greater political will to tackle the issue in the countries some extremely nice points. where it matters most. I should mention the work done by my right hon. Some right hon. and hon. Members who spoke were Friend the Prime Minister as a member of the high-level tempted to go slightly further afield than the middle panel advising on the post-2015 millennium development east in their remarks, but I shall confine my remarks to goals. An excellent report has been produced, recognising the middle east. Some interesting points were made rights and freedoms as a crucial part of the development about the middle east as the birthplace of Christianity, debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton will Islam and Judaism, which makes the religious persecution also recognise the work done by my right hon. Friend there all the more poignant. My hon. Friends the Members the Foreign Secretary, on the initiative on the prevention for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) of sexual violence, which more than 134 countries have and for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) mentioned Israel and now signed up to and which addresses some of the Palestine. It is true that less than 2% of the population issues my hon. Friend discussed in relation to rape. of Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories is Christian today, compared with 22% at the end of the Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): Those of us who British mandate in 1948. I heard what my hon. Friends went to the Holy See the other day met the cardinals in said, but we continue to be concerned about access to charge of the matter. Would the Minister be good holy sites for all, including Christians and Muslims. On enough to speak to the ambassador to the Holy See? We the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy had interesting discussions about that very question. raised about the Syrians who came to his constituency surgery, if he would like to write to me, I shall respond Mr Swire: I shall certainly take my hon. Friend’s and lay out our policy on asylum seekers. point on board. The period since 2011 has indeed been a difficult one The Government base their position on article 18 of for various religious communities across the region. the universal declaration of human rights, which states: Many are suffering and, tragically, there is a risk in “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and some countries of the disappearance of religious religion; this right includes freedom to change his or her religion communities that have existed there peacefully for centuries. or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others As right hon. and hon. Members—in particular, my and in public or private, to manifest his or her religion or belief in hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate—have teaching, practice, worship and observance.” said, the great majority of communities that are suffering Promoting human rights, including religious freedom, are Christian. It is right to continue to highlight that, is an important part of British foreign policy. Ministers but also to be concerned with all persecuted minorities. and officials at our embassies and high commissions We want freedom of religion or belief for all: a universal regularly raise concerns with host Governments about human right. violations of the right to freedom of religion or belief. I The effects of the crisis in Syria are particularly on shall ensure that our ambassador to the Vatican does our minds. Life in Syria for Christians and other minorities that. For example, when they met at the UN General continues to be extremely difficult. We have serious Assembly on 23 September, my right hon. Friend the concerns about rising sectarian tension and believe that Foreign Secretary urged his Egyptian counterpart to President Assad is deliberately attempting to stir up ensure that Egypt’s new constitution would include a such tensions in his efforts to hold on to power. Non-Alawite protection for the rights of minorities. We also regularly minorities, including Christian communities, are in a meet leaders of religious communities and civil society vulnerable position, not only because of the relatively organisations from around the world, with a view to small size of their communities and their geographic understanding their concerns better. We actively work dispersal, but because they are neither Sunni, like the with them to promote a universal commitment to religious majority of the opposition, nor Alawite, like the core of freedom and to promote tolerance and understanding the regime. The largest Christian communities in the for, between and within all faiths, in line with article 18 country were in Aleppo and Homs, where some of the of the universal declaration of human rights. most intense clashes between the regime and the opposition I hope that the right hon. Member for East Ham have happened. We are working hard, with the moderate (Stephen Timms), who urged Ministers to engage, will Syrian National Coalition, to find a diplomatic solution support the Prime Minister’s trip to Sri Lanka for the to the conflict and to support the building of a Syria Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in the that respects the rights of all its citizens, whatever their next few weeks. He will be the first western leader to go race, religion or lack of religion. to the north of the country to engage with the minority My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton is right to Tamil community. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman point out that we have provided more than £500 million agrees that that is the right way to proceed, despite the of humanitarian aid—the largest ever UK response to a alternative view taken by the Front Bench in his party, single crisis. Last week, my right hon. Friend the Secretary that the UK should not attend. of State for International Development announced We continue to work with the international community that her Department would support UNICEF’s Syrian to combat religious intolerance and protect human children appeal by matching public donations pound rights. In September, at the UN General Assembly, my for pound. We also support a number of projects noble Friend Baroness Warsi convened a group of Foreign designed to increase dialogue and reduce tensions between Ministers and officials from international organisations different communities to promote minority rights, including 25WH Persecution of Christians (Middle 5 NOVEMBER 2013 26WH East) almost £520,000 to train Sunni, Alawite, Christian, Renewable Energy (Peterborough) Druze, Armenian and Kurdish community and religious leaders. We have also provided support to create a network of peace-building committees in Syria by training 11 am and providing guidance and mentorship to nearly 500 activists. Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): It is a On 16 October, the Foreign Office Minister with pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first responsibility for human rights policy, Baroness Warsi, time, Mr Williams, and to have the opportunity to met Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch Gregorius III, speak up on behalf of my constituents on such an and they discussed the Geneva II process to establish important and topical issue of public policy. peace negotiations, the plight of Christians in Syria and I welcome the Minister. He is doing an excellent job, the humanitarian crisis affecting Syria and the region. although my endorsement will not necessarily help his The Minister underlined our commitment to speaking career. I have known him for more than 25 years, and I up on behalf of all those who are targeted for their look forward to his considered response. religion or belief. We have made it clear that those I am here to express serious concern about the July responsible for human rights violations and abuses should 2012 proposal of Peterborough city council and its be held to account. We believe that the International energy company proxy, Blue Sky Peterborough, to build Criminal Court will have a role to play, and I confirm a solar and wind energy park on 900 acres of prime that we have condemned the kidnapping of the bishops agricultural land to the east of the city, in the Newborough and called for their release, as my hon. Friend asked. and the Eye and Thorney wards. I will not unduly focus In Egypt, the Coptic Church continues to experience on planning issues, not least because the first of the many challenges. For example, we have just marked the three detailed planning applications by the applicant for second anniversary of the Maspero massacre, in which the Morris fen project is subject to an article 25 call-in 28 Christians taking part in a demonstration were killed. process under the auspices of the Secretary of State for Following the military intervention to remove Mohammad Communities and Local Government. I will, however, Morsi on 3 July this year, there has also been a rise in focus on the efficacy and financial viability of the project; the number of violent sectarian attacks. Churches, homes, the lack of proper consultation; governance issues, which businesses and individuals have been attacked. My right reveal major flaws in scrutiny, oversight and democratic hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has publicly condemned accountability; conflicts of interest; lack of openness the attacks and urged that there should be inclusive and proper financial modelling; environmental concerns; political dialogue. The Minister of State, Foreign and and food security. Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Member I will make it clear that I have sought to avoid conflict for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson), with the city council, which happens to be Conservative condemned the killing of four guests at a Coptic Christian controlled, by facilitating an alternative, brownfield wedding as recently as 20 October. renewable energy strategy, but the city council’s lack of We are also concerned about the situation for religious willingness to take it forward expeditiously or with any minorities in other countries of the region. In Iran, the seriousness, while reiterating its absolute commitment Baha’i are subject to mounting pressure. We are concerned to its original flawed, deeply damaging and unpopular by state efforts— plans, leaves me with no option but to bring the matter to the attention of Ministers and the House. Hywel Williams (in the Chair): Order. I apologise to The Peterborough energy park will be the largest the Minister, and I am grateful to Members for their such scheme in Europe. In all, it will mean the construction co-operation. of 500,000 glass panels on 900 acres of land—the size of 700 football pitches—some of it the most fertile in England. The land is owned by the city council and has been set aside for generations for cultivation of arable crops, such as sugar beet, potatoes and wheat, by tenant farmers, originally those returning as veterans from the second world war. The nine tenant farmers and their families, such as John and Denise Harris, who have been good and loyal tenants for 35 years, are to be turfed off the land, with the legal minimum compensation, to make way for a project that, like the great wall of China, will be visible from space. The first tranche of three—at Morris fen, 49 MW of solar and wind—was submitted by the city council as applicant to the local planning authority, Peterborough city council, on 19 December 2012. It is now subject to the call-in process, as confirmed in a letter from the planning Minister on 14 June this year. It comprises 144,060 solar panels on metal frames, the erection of a substation compound and of 23 inverter buildings, and other related development on the land. Morris fen is one of only three applications; the others are at America farm, for 8 MW of solar, and Newborough farm, 27 MW of solar and wind. 27WH Renewable Energy (Peterborough)5 NOVEMBER 2013 Renewable Energy (Peterborough) 28WH

[Mr Stewart Jackson] The sheer scale of the Peterborough project is of itself a major issue, but the lack of proper consultation, Using 900 acres of such fertile soil means stopping the paucity of proper financial data and conflicts of food production equivalent to bread for 7,000 families interest, as well as possibly dubious and ethically or potatoes for 9,000 families each year. The National questionable conduct by senior officers of Peterborough Farmers Union has consistently opposed the project as city council, make it a wider issue of democracy and “a large commercial scheme with no apparent benefit for local accountability and of openness and transparency. farmers”. The financial details of the project, other than a The November edition of British Farmer & Grower generic and speculative outline business case, have never quoted the president of the NFU, Peter Kendall: been published; nor have they been audited, analysed or stress tested by any independent entity. Since summer “Natural disasters, global food price spikes, and John Beddington’s Foresight Report have seen global summits focusing on food 2012, the cabinet and full council have been asked to security with an intensity not seen since the Second World War. commit substantial amounts of public money on the Food production and the value of the wholefood industry to the basis of trust in the judgment of one officer, in effect, national economy has really started to land with policy makers who, incidentally, has refused point blank to accede to across Government. This makes plans to cover 900 acres of grade requests by elected city councillors to release details of 1 and 2 land outside Peterborough with solar panels crazy.” financial projections below the outline business case The council claims that its proposals for wind and level—more of him later. solar energy will generate a profit of about £31 million over the next 25 years, but they will require an investment Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): by taxpayers—mainly—of £331 million via the Public My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. As his Works Loan Board and from cash subsidies offered to constituency neighbour, I endorse his case on the visual producers of green energy. In one of a number of impact and the short-termism on food security. Does he examples of sleight of hand, the council has deliberately agree, as a fellow member of the Public Accounts disaggregated each of the planning applications so that Committee, that there is real concern about our inability they do not fall foul of legislative powers vested by to see the proposed commercial case, which does not Parliament in the Secretary of State for Energy and look like value for money for the taxpayer, thereby Climate Change to determine whether they can proceed. compounding the other issues that he is rightly highlighting? Nevertheless, to all intents and purposes they are one huge renewable energy project. Mr Jackson: My hon. Friend has a strong record on Peterborough city council is out of step with Government campaigning on inappropriate renewable energy projects policy, in respect not only of the national planning in his constituency. He is absolutely right that this is a policy framework, especially paragraph 112 and paragraph wider issue of democracy and governance in local 28 on agriculture diversification, and of the recent government and of the ability of elected representatives, statement issued by the Secretary of State for Communities let alone the public, to see apposite and crucial financial and Local Government on local planning and renewable data so as to make an informed choice. energy projects and recovery appeals, but of, specifically, the strong line taken by the Minster just last month. Thus far, on a project that does not have planning permission, is likely to have its detailed planning applications It is apposite to recapitulate the Minister’s letter to called in for determination by the Bristol inspectorate hon. Members of 14 October. Commenting on the and to face a judicial review, does not have a proper developing policy outlined in the Department’s solar funding stream and is based on a renewables obligation roadmap document, he stated: programme regime, which may be amended substantially, “I want the focus of growth to be firmly on domestic and the city council has spent more than £1.8 million of commercial roof space and brownfield sites… Inappropriately taxpayers’ money. Details of that expenditure and most sited solar PV especially in the countryside is something that I other project information have been obtained only through take extremely seriously and am determined to crack down on… the Freedom of Information Act. Our new Solar Roadmap makes it very clear that new solar installations need to be sensitively placed and… proposals… give Even senior council officers have described last year’s proper weight to environmental considerations such as landscape public consultation as inadequate. Expenditure on and visual impact, heritage and local amenity, and provide consultation has been less than £10,000, or 5.6% of opportunities for local communities to influence decisions that total spend, and in particular the treatment of the affect them.” farmers has been shoddy and high handed. In contrast, In July, in a similar Westminster Hall debate to this more than £440,000 has been spent on planning fees; one, but on solar arrays, introduced by my hon. Friend £125,000 on financial modelling advice from Deloitte; the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), the Minister £150,000 on legal fees, mainly to City lawyers Pinsent said: Masons; and an astonishing £951,000—almost twice “We simply must not—and will not—allow prime agricultural the original budget—for technical consultants AECOM. land to be taken out of active food production.”—[Official Report, Industry experts have stated privately that they have 11 July 2013; Vol. 566, c. 163WH.] never seen such inflated expenditure for work on which Furthermore, I welcome the Minister’s strong there has been so little demonstrable progress. commitment, in the letter that I mentioned, to eliminate A number of serious questions arise about conflict of subsidy for solar energy altogether by 2018. No wonder, interest. Not only is the city council both the applicant therefore, that the main industry body, the British and the local planning authority, but councillors who Photovoltaic Association, recently felt compelled to sit and sat on the planning and environmental protection publish a “guidance document”encouraging development committee and determined the Morris fen application on brownfield land. on 17 June 2013 voted to support the full energy park 29WH Renewable Energy (Peterborough)5 NOVEMBER 2013 Renewable Energy (Peterborough) 30WH plans at a full council meeting on 5 December 2012. over time due to age performance degradation over the I suggest that that clearly shows evidence of pre- project’s time scale—a phenomenon that the Renewable determination. Energy Foundation identified with wind projects. If The city council leader, who has faced consistent those factors are included in the financial model, the criticism from a number of quarters as a result of his project will make a loss over 25 years. well-documented financial interests in green energy The project has stalled, not merely as a result of the companies, has constantly raised the issue of the energy Secretary of State’s article 25 direction, but because park plans being a simple matter of how the city council the local planning authority was forced to undertake an is to raise the money to fill the gap from diminishing archaeological survey of the site following strong, if central Government grants, but this is not, nor should it belated, written representations by English Heritage be, a planning matter. Nor should deadlines relating to just before determination of the Morris fen application the city council’s ability to benefit from feed-in tariff in June. Just two weeks ago, the subsequent excavation subsidies be material considerations. yielded the discovery of Roman and Saxon artefacts, Furthermore, not only has the council’s head of the value of which is yet to be fully determined and resources been appointed, at public expense and in city verified by independent sources such as Professor Francis council time, as managing director of a new arm’s-length Pryor of Cambridge university, who, in 1982, discovered company, Blue Sky Peterborough Ltd—the new energy the world famous Flag fen site near to the project’s services company, or ESCO, which is allegedly dormant— location, which turned out to be one of the most but council tax payers have not been given details of the notable bronze age settlements ever discovered in Europe. company’s board, its contractual arrangements and other I have never resiled from an open-minded commitment core activities. Despite refusing to release financial costings to alternative renewable energy sources and to developing on the basis that they are “commercially confidential”, appropriately sited sources, not least because on current he regularly challenges the media, city councillors and projections Peterborough city council will have a gap campaigners, most recently at the council’s rural scrutiny between income and outgoings of as much as £18.6 million commission meeting on 16 September, to contest his on a revenue budget of £399 million by 2017-18, due figures. particularly to reductions in baseline funding. It is incumbent on the city council fully to justify its actions Such secrecy and lack of transparency are deeply and to be accountable for them, but it is helpful to allow worrying, as is the fact that, until a few months ago, the the authority to concede it has erred and to pursue head of resources, who holds a dual role as a section 151 other renewable energy projects for community benefit officer under the Local Government Act 1972 and chief on brownfield sites. That is what local city and parish executive officer of Blue Sky Peterborough, was married councillors, the local NFU, campaign organisations to the city council’s monitoring officer, giving rise to an such Newborough landscape protection group, and I apparent and alleged conflict of interest. Requests to have sought to do since June. the city council’s chief executive for definitive determination of the matter have not been forthcoming. Stephen Barclay: Does my hon. Friend agree that the The city council has seconded senior officers and Department’s guidelines must be clarified to take on specialists, such as ecologists, from the planning department board the points that he is articulating so well today, to the energy park project to assist AECOM. At the particularly the gaming of the planning system to qualify, beginning of the year, it was revealed to be pressurising often in haste, for feed-in tariffs, and the way that is planning officers to curtail statutory consultation by incentivising developments in the wrong areas, as well three weeks and to accelerate publication of the planning as compromising food security by building on areas report, which, when it came to committee in June, with archaeological and other community and farming predictably recommended approval, despite contravening benefits, as opposed to brownfield sites? Would he like evolving Government planning policy. the guidance to be strengthened to incentivise the right It is no surprise that the council was in such a hurry. developments? By missing the 1 April deadline for the reduction from two renewables obligation certificates per megawatt to Mr Jackson: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. It 1.6 ROCs and using only the indicative financial modelling is important that the Government’s evolving planning published by the city council, which is £38 per ROC policy takes account of cumulative impact as well as the plus 3% inflation, it might have cumulatively forfeited importance of agricultural diversification. He makes about £33.3 million over the lifetime of the anticipated the significant point that this is work in progress and project, more than its basic profit level. that we must ensure that the planning policy adopted by Surely the question is, how robust are the existing local authorities is appropriate, particularly to national financial proposals? Of the 22 key input figures that the policy. council proposed in the outline business case, which We have sought to work with Empower Community, the cabinet discussed at least twice, nine are described with which the Minister is familiar, to build consensus as “indicative”, six as “contingent” and seven are not and community engagement and to transfer the experience described at all. The business case is not Treasury Green of other local authorities, such as York city council and Book compliant, and there has been no formal options Swindon borough council, in developing an area-wide appraisal and no sensitivity analysis. It is certainly far renewable energy programme focused on residential from the full business case to be expected of a project of and non-residential roofs, public sector buildings, schools, this scale. warehouses and other industrial brownfield sites. In addition, there is no contingency fund, and no Five months on, we have yet to see real political funds have been set aside for community benefit investment, leadership and commitment from the council to pursue a compensation scheme or diminishing power generation that avenue in a convincing and sustainable way. It 31WH Renewable Energy (Peterborough)5 NOVEMBER 2013 Renewable Energy (Peterborough) 32WH

[Mr Stewart Jackson] Likewise, for many businesses, solar makes a huge amount of sense. I am not only talking about small remains wedded to plan A, with all its flaws, guesswork, arrays. I was in Crewe last month at the Bentley factory, subterfuge, speculation, sleight of hand and, above all, which was built in the 1930s and helped to build the risk to taxpayers and value for money. I am never one to Spitfires that fought the battle of Britain. On the roof take conspiracies as a given in politics and government, of that building, there isa5MWarrayofsolar panels, but too many people have remarked that the Peterborough which was fantastic to see. It was absolutely in the right model of renewable energy is to set up an arm’s- place, and it was pumping out electricity and helping length company to broker a short to medium-term that important British manufacturer, just as solar panels power purchase agreement, transfer agricultural land to are helping about half a million homes that have them commercial use and then, with a change in the subsidies on their roofs. We want to see a really exciting, ambitious regime, realise the capital asset by selling the land on for roll-out as the costs come down, so that it becomes property speculation, making a few people, most of more affordable. This is not only about solar panels on whom do not live in Peterborough, very wealthy. rooftops and in commercial and industrial spaces; there are occasions when they make sense on brownfield sites. It disappoints me that I have to take issue with my In Cornwall, there is an excellent tin mine where a fairly party colleagues in local government, but some of them large array has been set up. That works, and is working have failed in their duty properly to scrutinise this well with the community. In Leicestershire, at Wymeswold, disastrous gamble. My first priority is always my a former air base, another large array works well and constituents in the rural wards east of the city of has local support. Peterborough, enmeshed in a deeply troubling process over which, in the past 18 months, they have often felt I have to say to my hon. Friend that when I hear of helpless, ignored and impotent. Today, I have sought to monster projects that could turn a popular, intuitive give them a voice and to pose important questions and increasingly affordable technology into something about democracy, accountability and integrity, and about that is unpopular and inappropriate, I become very the use of taxpayers’ money. After all, if we cannot worried indeed. I am aware that when other renewable challenge those in authority, ask difficult questions and technologies have been perceived as having been put in hold the powerful to account, why bother serving in inappropriate places on an inappropriate scale, the tide Parliament? My challenge to Peterborough city council of public opinion has, in certain areas, turned away is to reconsider its position, seek genuine consensus and from renewables and the wider environmental question. collaboration on new and viable renewable energy plans, Invariably, that has alienated many people who are not and scrap the project at the earliest opportunity. I hope naturally enemies of the environment. I know that my that the Minister will encourage it in that necessary and hon. Friend the Member for North East Cambridgeshire timely endeavour. (Stephen Barclay) has fought many battles along those lines. I want to say very clearly that yes, I am a champion of 11.21 am renewable energy, but we must make sure—as my hon. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Friend the Member for Peterborough said, and as I Change (Gregory Barker): I start by congratulating my wrote to him and other colleagues recently—that solar hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) photovoltaic sites are appropriately situated, and that on securing the debate. As he reminded me, we are we give proper weight to local environmental considerations, rather old hon. Friends; it really is 25 years—sadly, I particularly those pertaining to landscape and the visual think it might be creeping towards 30, which surely impact, which are rightly important to local people. We must be a mistake. must also make sure that we give due consideration to heritage areas, but people do not have to live on Stonehenge, My hon. Friend has spoken out incredibly powerfully or even in an area of outstanding natural beauty, to today, and I have received loud and clear the message value their local landscape and the visual amenity. that he has brought here on behalf of his constituents in Peterborough. That should not be a surprise; he is If we are to roll out energy on a community scale, we known throughout the House as a champion for his absolutely need to take communities with us. It stands constituents and for being an extraordinary advocate to reason that if we want a proliferation of local energy for the hard-working people of Peterborough. I want schemes, we need to work with local people on them. As him to know that we take his comments extremely I think my hon. Friend will understand, I cannot speak seriously. to many of the specifics of the application that he mentioned, but I am very concerned when I hear of First, however, let me say that I am a fan of solar, and large projects that attempt to roll over local opinion, that I am a champion of the technology. As my hon. thereby turning the tide against a technology with huge Friend said, I am strongly committed to rolling out potential. solar across the UK and to driving down its cost, not only to eliminate the need for subsidy, but to make it Many points that my hon. Friend made relate directly cheaper. In the past three years, the cost of a set of solar to decisions on planning that are, of course, primarily panels on a household roof has typically fallen from within the purview of my right hon. Friend the Secretary something like £15,000 to £5,000—that, I think, is how of State for Communities and Local Government. I much IKEA are selling them for—making them much hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough more accessible for a lot of people, and making them a will raise his detailed concerns with the Secretary of sensible solution for, potentially, millions of people who State, given his policy lead on planning issues. However, are struggling with high energy bills and are likely to do I would be grateful if my hon. Friend copied me in, so so in future. that we are clearly sighted on these issues. I am always 33WH Renewable Energy (Peterborough) 5 NOVEMBER 2013 34WH concerned when such issues arise, and it is important Under-Occupancy Penalty that we continue to monitor the proliferation of solar sites. I am absolutely determined to get this right. My hon. Friend alluded to our solar strategy, of [MRS LINDA RIORDAN in the Chair] which we are very proud. It is very ambitious, but we have not fired it and walked away; we will continue to 2.30 pm watch and ensure that planners locally get the message. It is not a case of saying, “We’ve said our piece. We are Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): It is a going to wash our hands and walk away.”I will continue pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. to look very closely to ensure that the strategy, as I am pleased to have secured the debate, and I look anticipated here at Westminster, and my vision for solar forward to contributions from my hon. Friends, as well is what happens on the ground. We are reliant on as some answers from the Minister, whom I congratulate planners on the ground to deliver and pay heed to the on his new position. clear, explicit advice both in the solar strategy and from The bedroom tax was introduced on 1 April this year. our friends at the Department for Communities and The policy was designed to make more efficient use of Local Government, and to listen to local communities. our country’s social housing stock by identifying people My hon. Friend should look at the much tougher who were under-occupying their homes. Social sector renewables planning guidance that was published in tenants with one spare room face a deduction of 14% in July by DCLG. As I said in my solar strategy, the need their housing benefit. Those who are under-occupying for renewable energy does not automatically override by two rooms face a 25% deduction. environmental protections and the planning concerns The Government told us that this measure would of local communities. tackle overcrowding, encourage efficient use of social housing and save the taxpayer, by 2015, £930 million, Stephen Barclay: I very much welcome the tone and but the reality is that this tax penalises some of the the substance of the Minister’s remarks about taking poorest and most vulnerable groups in our society, the community with us. Will he look at the weighting as while failing to achieve any of its aims. Instead, we are part of the feed-in tariff for schemes in rural areas, as seeing rising poverty, soaring rent arrears, streets filled opposed to on brownfield sites, particularly—I see my with vacant properties, rising homelessness and worrying hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura trends in our housing supply. Sandys) in her place—in relation to food security and Local authorities face ever-increasing numbers of rural communities? tenants who are unable to keep up with their rent payments, with that number set to rise even further in Gregory Barker: I will certainly take on board my the future. That is the money that local authorities rely hon. Friend’s point. Obviously, larger schemes would be on to be able to build new homes and maintain their unable to claim the feed-in tariff, because the feed-in housing stock. The irony, of course, is that new homes tariff currently hasa5MWlimit, and we are proposing are exactly what is needed to tackle overcrowding and to raise that for community schemes to 10 MW. That is create a working housing market; but under this not an insubstantial size for solar, but any scheme that Government, we have seen the lowest number of housing covered hundreds of acres would be likely to draw on completions since the 1920s. That situation will not the renewables obligation for larger schemes. change as long as the bedroom tax is in place, rent arrears continue to pile up and local authorities are 11.30 am constrained in building new homes. Sitting suspended. The scale of the injustice resulting from the bedroom tax is appalling. The tax affects an estimated 600,000 people, 96% of whom have no smaller home to go to, and as a result the average family is losing £720 a year. In my constituency of South Shields, 1,440 households are affected, with only 387 properties becoming available for them to move into between April and September this year. Some of those properties are only for people qualifying for sheltered accommodation, so the reality is that many households have fewer homes to bid for. The average amount that will be charged is just under £9 a week for a household deemed to be under-occupying by one bedroom and just under £15 a week for those under-occupying by two, yet South Tyneside Homes estimates that the true value of a spare room is just under £5, as reflected in the differences in the rents that tenants would pay. The bedroom tax, then, grossly overvalues the price of a spare room and is overcharging tenants. This is at the same time as we have a cost-of-living crisis, with food, energy and water prices surging. The chief executive of Citizens Advice said: “As long as this dire lack of housing options exists then the Government can’t reasonably tell people they have a choice about downsizing to a smaller home.” 35WH Under-Occupancy Penalty5 NOVEMBER 2013 Under-Occupancy Penalty 36WH

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck] to the expensive private sector—moves that will increase the housing benefit bill further, and further stretch But they do keep saying that, and she is correct: the public finances. numbers simply do not add up. Some 180,000 households were deemed to be under-occupying two-bedroom homes, yet only 85,000 one-bedroom homes became available Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): In the light during the whole of 2012. of that comment—I have to say that that is not a problem that we experience in Edinburgh—was my What makes matters worse is that the constituents I hon. Friend surprised that the response from the Minister have spoken to do not actually have a spare room. What of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. they have is a room for their carers, their elderly or Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), to the question disabled relatives, their children, foster children or potential of three-bedroom houses perhaps being hard to let was adopted children. Others find it difficult to downsize that they should be subdivided in some way? That their home when their circumstances change—for example, betrays a complete misunderstanding of the nature of following a bereavement or when their children leave those houses, because the cost of turning them into, say, home. two houses would far exceed the savings.

David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I appreciate Mrs Lewell-Buck: I was not aware of that response. I that housing per se is a devolved matter for Northern thank my hon. Friend for letting me know that information. Ireland and the Executive have yet to agree the Welfare I am very surprised by that. Reform Bill, but there is an issue, which the hon. Lady has mentioned, as regards downsizing. I am sure that The National Housing Federation estimates that a the situation is the same across all regions. There is a family under-occupying a two-bedroom home who move massive shortage of one-bedroom houses. In Northern into a one-bedroom flat in the private rented sector will Ireland, it would take at least a 10-year building programme claim an average of £1,500 in housing benefit, despite to achieve the one-bedroom housing that is required. living in a smaller property. Just last month, the Deputy That puts the Executive in Northern Ireland in a great Prime Minister acknowledged that the bedroom tax is dilemma, and I am sure that the situation is much the leaving some families facing same in all regions. “dilemmas which need to be addressed”. This is not a dilemma—it is a crisis happening on his Mrs Lewell-Buck: The hon. Gentleman is correct. I Government’s watch. will come on to the point that he raises. I visited Ms Ashley Pollard, one of my constituents, I have never met anyone who is selfishly holding on to at home. She faces one of the Deputy Prime Minister’s an extra bedroom just because they want to. It is no so-called dilemmas. She lives alone in a two-bedroom wonder that the local authority covering my constituency flat. She has mobility difficulties and, as a result, needs has seen a rise of more than 50% in homelessness under to be in a wheelchair almost every moment of the day. this Government and, between April and July of this Her mother is her carer and stays in her extra bedroom year, has seen more than 500 tenants hand back their most weeknights. Her mother is also in employment, so keys. The total financial impact of that handback is she is not entitled to carer’s allowance. £600,000. That money could have been spent on bringing 60 of the homes in our area up to a decent standard or Ashley is unable to avoid paying the bedroom tax and on building eight new homes. My local authority is not has requested a move to a one-bedroom ground-floor alone. Many other local authorities are having to use property, but there is none for her to go to. She wants to their housing revenue account moneys to pay for the move but cannot; wants to pay her bills but is struggling tax. Those are moneys that they would have otherwise to do so; and needs to have the continued care from her used to build and improve their homes. mother. Sadly, Ashley is not alone. It is estimated that more than 400,000 disabled people are expected to Not only local authorities are struggling because of suffer what the Deputy Prime Minister calls a dilemma. the tax; 26 leading housing associations have seen their Can the Minister, in his response, suggest what Ms Pollard credit ratings downgraded as investors become anxious should do? about the impact of the bedroom tax. That leaves housing associations unable to plan for the future or for At a time when the disabled are already being hit current housing demand and to build homes to meet hard by cuts to public services and reduced benefits, that demand. That compounds what is already a dire they now have to worry about losing their homes as situation for house building under this Government, well—homes that, once they have been forced out, will who slashed the affordable homes budget in their first lie empty. Those homes have been adapted to fit tenants’ year in office and are planning a further round of cuts needs in line with their disability. If they move, their for 2015-16. Meanwhile, property developers sit on land new home will need to be adapted, while their own that could be used for new builds. home will remain empty. The bedroom tax not only stifles construction; it also Another disabled constituent of mine lives in an wastes many of the homes that we already have. Larger adapted property that cost the local authority in excess properties are now lying empty across the country, of £10,000 to adapt. The property has two bedrooms, ignored by tenants who fear that they will not be able to so she is subject to the bedroom tax. Unsurprisingly, afford them if their circumstances change. We are already there are no alternative, one-bedroom properties in our seeing streets with scores of empty properties. The area to meet her needs. She is therefore stuck paying the number of such properties is likely to rise and rise, while tax, unable to obtain discretionary housing payment, the former residents are becoming homeless or moving and she is struggling. 37WH Under-Occupancy Penalty5 NOVEMBER 2013 Under-Occupancy Penalty 38WH

What do the Government suggest is an efficient use At the same time as the crisis was looming, the of housing in that situation? Should my local authority Secretary of State for Work and Pensions was quoted in adapt a new property for my constituent at the cost of a our local newspaper, the Shields Gazette, saying: further £10,000 and leave her current home empty? Far “When 13,101 households are stuck on a waiting list for social from encouraging the better use of social housing, in housing in south Tyneside, there’s a big problem that needs that case, the bedroom tax leads to a nonsensical outcome. addressing… it can’t be right that many households across the north-east are living in an overcrowded home. There’s nothing fair about making families wait and wait for a house that is big Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): My hon. enough, while other households on benefits are allowed to live in Friend will be interested to hear about a constituent of homes that are too big for their needs, at no extra cost.” mine, whose home also has had adaptations to account The Secretary of State helpfully advised that my for the equipment needed for their disability. That constituents may accommodation can be offered only to older people over the age of 40. If my constituent is to vacate the “decide to take up work, or work a few more hours to cover the accommodation, there is no way that a family with difference” young children can move into it. It is a further waste of or public money. “move to more appropriately-sized accommodation or take in a lodger.” Mrs Lewell-Buck: My hon. Friend is of course correct. I would like to take this opportunity to invite him to It will be far easier to leave people in the homes that South Shields to deliver that advice personally to my have been adapted to meet their needs. constituents. In a survey of the 51 largest of its associations, the National Housing Federation, which represents housing Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): A number of associations, found that more than half of those who pensioners have told me in my surgery that they are were affected by the tax could not pay their rent in April living in three or four-bedroom houses and are subject or June. For many of those people, that was the first to the bedroom tax, but cannot downsize. The shift that time that they had ever fallen behind with their rent. we want to see is three and four-bedroom houses becoming available, but in my constituency they are now hard to Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ let. Co-op): My hon. Friend is making an extremely strong speech. There are also concerns in Wales. Community Mrs Lewell-Buck: My hon. Friend is correct. Elderly Housing Cymru, which represents social housing providers, people in my constituency have come to my surgery to has made a similar point: 87% of their members have say, in their words, that they are rattling around in seen an increase in arrears, which has not been seen three-bedroom homes. They would like to move, but elsewhere. That is matched by the experience of my they cannot. council, which has seen a £200,000 increase in arrears on the same period last year. The issue is affecting Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Just out of curiosity, councils and housing providers across the country. has the hon. Lady received any reply from the Secretary of State to her invitation to visit South Shields? In my Mrs Lewell-Buck: My hon. Friend makes a valid own constituency in north-west Wales, we have seen no point. It is decent, law-abiding people who have always sign at all of Ministers or of anyone conducting research paid their rent who are being targeted by the tax. before the change came into force. I will certainly refer to that in my speech, if I am lucky enough to be called. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I want to add to the point made by my hon. Friend the Mrs Lewell-Buck: This is the first time I have invited Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty). the Secretary of State to South Shields, so we will Nottingham City Homes, our arm’s length management see—watch this space. organisation, has seen an increase in arrears directly as Many of my constituents who are desperate for a result of the bedroom tax of £260,000 since April. We employment or are stuck on zero-hour contracts sincerely expect the amount to be about £500,000 this year—money want to move to a smaller property, but they simply that could and should have been spent on refurbishing have no homes to go to. The Government’s policy is homes or building new homes. hindering the ability of councils and housing associations to build homes for them to move to, so they will not be Mrs Lewell-Buck: I will address that issue in my able to act on the Secretary of State’s advice. next point. My local citizens advice bureau is receiving As with so many things this Government do, the more than 33 inquiries every week related to the bedroom disdain with which they treat people in social housing tax. shows how far removed they are from the reality of One case study identified a young lady who had never what is happening in towns such as mine. Opposition been in rent arrears. As a result of the bedroom tax, she Members have put a raft of questions to the Prime has only 84p per day to live on—to buy food, clothes Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Secretaries of and toiletries. That is an absolute scandal. Her story State and the previous Housing Minister regarding the resonates with what food banks and homelessness charities unfairness of this cruel tax and the implications for our in my constituency have told me. They feel that the housing supply. It is becoming depressingly clear that, increase in demand for their services is directly linked to from this Government’s point of view, my right hon. the bedroom tax. and hon. Friends do not need an answer and that the 39WH Under-Occupancy Penalty5 NOVEMBER 2013 Under-Occupancy Penalty 40WH

[Mrs Lewell-Buck] Mrs Lewell-Buck: I could not agree more. effects of the tax on struggling households and housing Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. supply are not their concern. Their only interest is in Friend on making a fantastic speech on this important appearing tough on those they call scroungers. issue. The Government admitted last week that they Thankfully, the Labour party has an answer. We are had wildly exaggerated the cost savings involved in the committed to repealing this awful tax. We are committed bedroom tax. Does that not show us what is really to building 1 million new homes over the next Parliament— behind the policy? It is not about saving money; it is 200,000 homes a year and a raft of employment about a vicious attack on vulnerable people—400,000 opportunities in construction. We are committed to out of 600,000 of them are disabled—who cannot speak stopping landowners holding on to undeveloped land, up for themselves. so that the housing market will suit the needs of the many, not the few. Mrs Lewell-Buck: I completely agree with my hon. The bedroom tax has been a complete failure. It has Friend, who has stolen some of my closing comments. not reduced overcrowding. I was interested to hear that the Department for Work and Pensions has commissioned an independent Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I congratulate review of the bedroom tax to analyse the impact on the hon. Lady on raising this important issue. If the vulnerable individuals, foster carers and those caring situation is as bad as she paints it on the mainland, it is for disabled children. However, why was the impact even worse in Northern Ireland, because we have the assessment not completed before the introduction of highest proportion of individuals under-occupying the tax? That is yet another example of ideology affecting compared with other regions of the United Kingdom. policy and of this Government’s “let’s do away with We are the worst hit. facts and research” approach. Does the hon. Lady not agree that, until the measure I also question why the policy’s impact on the housing is repealed—I hope it will be repealed soon—it would at market was not foreseen. The National Audit Office least be preferable to build in greater flexibility to the reported that the Government’s headline savings figure current exemptions, so that people would not be forced did not take into account the full range of impacts that to pay the tax if there was no suitable alternative the bedroom tax would have. Now that we have had accommodation? Something should be done in the time to assess the policy’s impact on rent arrears, we meantime, until we get rid of this wretched measure. know that the NAO was correct. I hope that the Minister will say what discussions his Department has had with Mrs Lewell-Buck: The right hon. Gentleman is correct. the Department for Work and Pensions about the effect More safeguards need to be built into the tax, but a of the policy on housing supply and why he believes the Labour Government would overturn the tax completely. impact assessment falls so far short of reality. Whatever the Government’s excuses, for my constituents Hywel Williams: The hon. Lady referred to building in South Shields and thousands of others across the 200,000 houses every year. Housing is a devolved issue. country, they will be scant consolation. Although an Has she signed up her colleagues in Cardiff to a total average of £12 a week may not seem like much to this for Wales, which I think would be about 11,000 houses a Government, it is a lot of money to the rest of us who year? Scotland’s Scottish National party Government are paying the price. My constituents need a Government will probably build 17,000 new houses a year. Will she who listen to their concerns and who commit to overturning be able to deliver? this cruel tax and addressing our housing shortage. What they need is a Labour Government. Mrs Lewell-Buck: I will leave that question for the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for 2.53 pm Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds), to answer. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): It is a great The bedroom tax has not encouraged efficient use of pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for social housing. It has certainly not saved the taxpayer South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck), who secured this the projected £470 million this year. It has increased important debate. The bedroom tax was primarily a homelessness and poverty, led to streets being filled savings measure. It was then dressed up, in some debates, with vacant social housing and cost more than it saved. as a way of tackling affordable housing shortages by Taking that and the human cost of the policy into making better use of property. However, as my hon. account, the tax is one of the cruellest and most ineffective Friend clearly demonstrated in her opening speech, we policies ever to come from any Government. warned from the outset—those of us who served on the Welfare Reform Bill Committee back in 2011 pointed Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): this out at the time—that the savings would be less than My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech highlighting estimated. the appalling human consequences of the policy. She If the policy were genuinely about supply, it would has just put her finger on the truth at the centre of it. It have been sensible to start by understanding local housing is not about encouraging people to downsize; it is markets and developing policies appropriate to local purely about saving money. That £470 million saving areas. As colleagues, including my hon. Friend the will not arise if people act as the Government say they Member for South Shields, have described, in some want them to act. It is because people do not have the cases, the bedroom tax is making larger houses unlettable. opportunity to downsize that the Government are making I must say that that is not a problem in my city, where savings. This is a cruel policy based on a fraudulent more than 900 households have been given the second- premise. highest priority banding because they need two extra 41WH Under-Occupancy Penalty5 NOVEMBER 2013 Under-Occupancy Penalty 42WH bedrooms, and about 350 households have the same of living that I hope most of us would think inappropriate. priority level because they are homeless and need three- That shows how little thought was given in practical bedroom housing. More than 1,200 families in the area reality. need large homes, and there simply are not many. They It is the same with the idea that everybody could take do not exist. It is not that single people or couples in my in lodgers. That does not take into consideration the constituency are rattling around in big homes that they nature of many of the properties in which people live, do not need; the properties just do not exist. and the difficulties involved. As for those who might want to downsize, this week, 22 one-bedroom properties are available to let across all Kate Green: Does my hon. Friend not also accept the housing associations and councils in the whole city that that would be a particularly unwelcome suggestion of Edinburgh. That is not just in my constituency; it is to women fleeing domestic abuse and violence, for across the whole city, which comprises five constituencies. example? The idea that they might have to take in a Of those properties, three are sheltered—they are for stranger as a lodger after experiences that may have older people, who are by definition not affected by the absolutely traumatised them is particularly inimical. bedroom tax—so they would not be available to those That is exactly the situation faced by one of my constituents. affected by the bedroom tax. This is not an unusually dry week for housing supply; it is typical of all weeks. Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend for that I check the availability regularly. intervention. Many people would find the concept of taking in a lodger extremely difficult, particularly given Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): Has my the nature of many properties. I visited a constituent hon. Friend analysed what types of houses the available whose kitchen was off the living room, and whose one-bedroom properties are? If Edinburgh is anything bedrooms were not particularly big. When someone has like my constituency, I suspect that they will not be in a lodger, they are sharing a house. They are not taking areas to which people looking to downsize would move in a lodger who has a self-contained annexe of the in any case. Very often they are for the young homeless, house; they are taking someone into the bosom of their or those prepared to live at the top of a tower block. household. The 60-year-old woman in question felt that that was not somewhere she needed to be in her life. Sheila Gilmore: Indeed, because of the nature of building at the time, a lot of smaller properties in the Ian Lavery: I am totally perplexed by the Government’s city, when we have them, are to be found in high-rises. advice to take in a lodger, which was given from day one of the bedroom tax. Some 400,000 of the 600,000 people affected by the bedroom tax are disabled. Would Pat Glass: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for disabled people want to bring in a stranger, just so they allowing the intervention. Does she agree that many could afford to pay the rent? current housing allocation policies came out of the recommendations in the Scarman report, and that a Sheila Gilmore: The reality is that people are not move back to pre-Scarman policies not only makes no taking on lodgers. The rhetoric on lodgers has quietened financial sense, but is potentially dangerous? down, presumably because the impracticality of that idea has revealed itself. If the measure was about making Sheila Gilmore: That is helpful. It reminds us of the better use of property, it was not the best way of going many ways in which we are going backwards. about that. It would be far better to encourage people In an intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for to move in some circumstances, but that is neither a South Shields, I mentioned a DWP Minister’s suggestion quick nor an easy process. It has to be planned for, and that if councils were struggling with three-bedroom that comes back to looking at the nature of the local houses that they could not let, they should have anticipated housing market and how those moves can be dealt with. the problem and taken steps to divide those houses. I Older tenants in larger homes might want to downsize—if was fantasising slightly about how that would work. Let they are over retirement age, they will not be affected by us take a typical three up, two down property in England; the bedroom tax—but the bedroom tax will not whip in Scotland, we are more likely to be talking about a them into wanting to move. Over the years, I have had tenement flat. What exactly would be involved in dividing many constituents say to me, “Yes, I would move. The it? First, either the tenants would somehow have to use stairs are getting too much for me. The garden is getting the same door and stairs, or the council would have to too much for me”, but they want control over where create a separate entrance, which would cost money. they go, and want to keep some of the things they like One of the upstairs rooms would have to be converted about their present home. Often that means the area, into some form of kitchen, which would cost money. and that does not necessarily only go for those who live That leaves the downstairs, which would have a kitchen, in what is perceived as a “good area”. Their area is but not a bathroom. Where would the bathroom go, or where they have their social circle, and their family at least a toilet? A bathroom extension? Remember might not be too far away. There will be many reciprocal there are only two rooms and a kitchen downstairs, so family arrangements, whether that is daughters helping building a bathroom would not be easy, unless it were mothers, or mothers helping their grown-up children built outside, and an extension costs money. Then I with child care and picking kids up from school. All thought, “I know what the Minister must have had in those sorts of things cannot be done if they are moved mind: a portaloo in the back garden.” That would take to the other end of town. Okay, they are fussy, but they us right back to the days when people had outside are fussy because they want the move to be one that will toilets, but it might help get the house divided up. It last them the rest of their lives. They do not want to would involve not only huge additional cost but a style rush into something that is unsuitable. 43WH Under-Occupancy Penalty5 NOVEMBER 2013 Under-Occupancy Penalty 44WH

[Sheila Gilmore] I have a constituent who has been living in a private sector property that was provided to him when he was All authorities might want to build new build housing homeless, because we do not have enough council and that is geared to older people. If authorities do their housing association homes. His rent payments are £815 homework properly, they will know in advance that that a month, which probably does not sound much in will release larger houses. The homework, however, has London terms, although it is high in Edinburgh terms. to be done, and investment is needed. If the investment When he was working, he still had to pay half of that is not there, it becomes very difficult. New build numbers rent from his earnings. In the end, he gave up his job, are dropping, not only in England and Wales, which the partly because of the financial pressures that he was Minister is concerned with, but in Scotland, too. In the then under. If he had a council or housing association whole of Scotland, new starts have dropped from the rented property, he could have afforded much more high point in 2007-08 of 6,214 to just 2,781 in 2012-13. easily to get back into work. There are all sorts of That is a substantial drop. We want to have new build reasons why housing investment is a win-win-win. It is a available to help people move around, but it is just not win because we would get the houses; because we would there. begin to reduce the total housing benefit bill; and because we would be doing something serious—not just There are many things that we should be looking at. haranguing people about getting back to work, but We should be considering building new homes. Councils putting in place practical measures—to help people get might want to consider—I have suggested this to my back to work. local council—buying some properties at comparable prices. They should not pay more for a property than it We need to look at the fact that the bedroom tax has would cost to build, but that would help deal with some done the opposite of that. It has created a situation of the biggest chronic housing shortages. When homeless where both councils and housing associations are anxious families, even those with children, are waiting in temporary about the loss of income. It matters to all tenants, accommodation for up to a year to get anything, we because all tenants are being impacted on, not just have a crisis, not just a slight shortage. those affected by the bedroom tax. I made that point to a Government Minister recently, and pointed out that There is a further win-win in all this, which perhaps even pensioners and tenants who are not on housing brings us back to the stated purpose of the bedroom benefit are being affected by the bedroom tax. The tax. If more affordable housing is built, we can reduce response I got—they had half-heard the question—was, the total housing benefit spend. It is true that the spend “But pensioners are not affected.” That was not my has gone up in recent years—the Government are not point. My point was that if the landlord, be it the wrong to point that out—but their predictions and council or the housing association, has less income forecasts for the next few years are that the spend will coming in, that will affect all the other tenants, because continue to rise until at least 2016-17, when it will reach that organisation will have only a few choices. It could £23.38 billion. cut back on its modernisation programme, and that would affect pensioners who have been waiting for many years, as many of my constituents have, for their Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Does my hon. kitchens and bathrooms to be modernised. They would Friend agree that the major increase in housing benefit have to wait even more years. has come from the increase in benefit paid to people in private accommodation, not to those in social housing? Lilian Greenwood: Does my hon. Friend agree that our social landlords are not only facing extra arrears, Sheila Gilmore: Indeed. I have some figures, although but having to put in extra resources to deal with having they take us only to 2010-11. In 2000-01, the spend on to chase people for arrears? Nottingham City Homes private rented sector housing benefit was £3.6 billion. told me that it has already had to spend an extra By 2010-11, that had risen to £8.9 billion, and it has £300,000 on staff and resources to deal with the extra risen again since then. The number of recipients of demands on the rent arrears team. Is it not a concern housing benefit rose under this Government by 326,597 that the extra spending on such things is not going on people or households between May 2010 and February other tenants and their homes? 2013. More than twice as many of those—some 218,209— were in the private rented sector than were in council Sheila Gilmore: Yes, indeed. Landlords will have quite and housing association housing. All the time that the limited choices. If they are not going to do anything Government have been in power, wringing their hands about their modernisation programme, they will certainly about the rising housing benefit bill and saying that be looking at their new build programme or at raising measures such as the bedroom tax are the way to tackle rents, which, again, affects all tenants. It is not true to it, the number of recipients has gone up, and the say therefore that these issues affect only those who are amount of money we are spending has gone up. directly affected by the bedroom tax. We are not tackling the issue from the right end. If we If the bedroom tax means that less income is coming had a proper housing investment programme for affordable in and that there is less ability to start and fund new housing, that would bring down the housing benefit build programmes, it will not increase supply; it will do bill. That is what we should be aiming to do. It would precisely the opposite of what Ministers have tried to give many individuals a real incentive and help in getting claim that they want it to do. We really need to move back to work, because having people in expensive private away from this approach and to realise that it is not sector rented accommodation, whether it is temporary, working. We have not only the arrears, but a whole permanent or semi-permanent, is a disincentive to administrative apparatus to help people who have run employment. into arrears and to process discretionary housing payments 45WH Under-Occupancy Penalty5 NOVEMBER 2013 Under-Occupancy Penalty 46WH and appeals for discretionary housing payments, which described how different my city is from some places in may have to be reprocessed every year or six months. the north-east of England, which face quite different That involves a cost that people did not have to meet issues. We therefore need to allow local knowledge and before. local planning to come into play, but that is not happening The glib answer is that discretionary housing payments with the policy that is being imposed. are the solution, but they reduce savings, which is yet another reason for thinking this whole thing has been a Several hon. Members rose— bit pointless. Furthermore, people who have, by definition, been means-tested are now being given a further means Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Order. Time is test—that is what this comes down to—on their already moving on, and a large number of Members wish to low income to see whether they qualify for discretionary speak. I intend to call the Front Benchers at 3.40 pm. If housing payments. The forms ask them about their Members can be respectful and keep their speeches to expenditure and about whether they have Sky television five minutes, I will be able to call everyone who wants to or whether they smoke. speak. Things such as disability living allowance, which is specifically given to meet the costs of disability and illness are being taken into account in declaring that 3.16 pm people can afford to pay the bedroom tax. People were Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): It is a pleasure never given DLA to pay their rent, and if they are using to serve under your chairmanship again, Mrs Riordan. it to do so because they have been deemed to have I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South enough income to meet the gap between their rent and Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck) on securing this important the housing benefit that they receive, they are not spending debate. their DLA on their disability. Having a second tier of means tests is quite unacceptable. I talked about outside The stated aim of the under-occupancy penalty, to toilets, and we are back in the 1930s again with this give it the Government’s preferred name, was to free up issue; we are back with the means-test officer telling larger accommodation, and to cut the housing benefit people that they really did not need the sideboard or the bill by moving people into smaller properties. Well, the record player they had had for some years, because they policy has not released larger accommodation; nor will were too poor. it save the housing benefit it set out to save. Instead it will, as we have heard, drive people into the private rented sector and add to costs. Just where are local Stephen Doughty: Or we have the Minister, Lord authorities and housing associations to find the smaller Freud, telling split-up families that the kids should accommodation? The truth is that it could take years to share a sofa bed—that is the type of perversity being place people in smaller homes, and that is assuming that suggested by Ministers, and that is the means-testing no one’s circumstances change. culture that we are getting into. That is a sad message for a Minister to send out. In Scotland, the UK Government’s changes to housing benefit have had a significant impact on claimants. The people affected by the changes are those with specially Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend. adapted homes to reflect their health conditions; separated We must never forget the personal picture and the parents, who potentially face losing access to their difficulties involved. One constituent is a cancer patient, children; and tenants who are struggling to find alternative although he is, fortunately, recovering. He has a two- smaller accommodation, despite being willing to move. bedroom house—nothing terribly big—and his three All the under-occupancy charge has done in my children come to him every weekend. One suffers from constituency is bring people to the verge of crisis. Many autism, which creates difficulties if the children have to are building up arrears, trying somehow to cope using share a room. My constituent wrote to the Prime Minister discretionary housing payments, while others are desperately asking what he should do, and the Prime Minister said, trying to find smaller accommodation. All that worry “Apply for a discretionary housing payment.” Well, my and panic is despite the best efforts of the housing constituent has, of course, applied for a discretionary associations and the council in Inverclyde. Advice agencies housing payment, and he has been refused. He appealed, are also working together to reassure and help people. I and he has been refused. I am not quite sure what he is recognise the assistance given by the Scottish Government expected to do next, other than to fall into rent arrears, to alleviate the cost of this penalty, although more which is what is happening. He is worrying about that, could always be done. which probably is not helping his recovery. Alternatively, The panic and fear instilled in our most vulnerable he could move, which will make it virtually impossible people is evidenced by Citizens Advice Scotland, which for him to have his boys to stay, which cannot be right. advised on almost 20,000 new housing benefit issues in I hope that we all agree that we want to increase the 2012-13. That is about 75 per working day—an 11% housing supply and particularly the affordable housing increase on the previous year. However, there was a 40% supply, so we have to agree that the bedroom tax is increase in April 2013 compared with April 2012. Those simply the wrong way to do that. It starts at the wrong increases can all be explained by the introduction of the end, and it is not resolving the problem, for all the new under-occupancy rules. In the first week after the reasons that have been given. If we really want to start of the bedroom tax, 700 affected tenants approached improve housing supply, we have to do two big things. Citizens Advice Scotland for advice. That is not to One, obviously, is to invest in it, and the other is to mention the numbers of worried, concerned and frightened allow local areas to decide on the appropriate way to people who visited my surgeries—and yes, I concede address their problems. There will be differences; I have that many were exempt. 47WH Under-Occupancy Penalty5 NOVEMBER 2013 Under-Occupancy Penalty 48WH

[Mr Iain McKenzie] tenancy agreements until their arrears are cleared. That is one more perverse—indeed, Kafkaesque—consequence Another concern about the housing supply relates to of the policy. adapted homes. If people who have adapted their homes to cater for their disability by installing step-in showers Mr McKenzie: My hon. Friend makes a good point. or wet rooms decide to move rather than incur the Housing associations need flexibility to ensure that no penalty, they will need to reinstall these adaptations in one falls into arrears, or into the eviction bracket. their new home, at significant cost. Surely it cannot be Housing associations warned also that there would seen as an effective way of spending time and resources not be the house building that would be required for to move people out of homes that meet their needs into people to avoid the penalty. That is certainly true not new homes that do not, and that must subsequently be only in Scotland but across the country. People cannot adapted. It is a crazy situation, and the cost is getting move to smaller homes to avoid the bedroom tax because out of control. It is short-sighted, and an unbelievable there are not enough smaller properties. In Inverclyde, I waste, as it costs the taxpayer more money, never mind could count on one hand the streets, outwith the private the upheaval for the individuals concerned. sector, that offer single-bedroom accommodation. The vast majority of those affected in my constituency I ask again what my constituents are to do about the will be moving from two-bedroom to one-bedroom policy. There are now rent arrears, evictions, financial accommodation, if they can. That is being replicated distress, and difficulty in finding alternative or adapted throughout Scotland and the rest of the UK. Of the accommodation. That all shows that there is a lack of 105,000 households in Scotland affected by the under- appropriate housing and house building throughout the occupancy penalty, an estimated 83,000 include an adult country while we have the dreadful bedroom tax. with a recognised disability. The proposed changes will therefore have a disproportionate impact on people Several hon. Members rose— with disabilities. Many of those tenants have severe health conditions and face reductions in income that Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Order. With the could affect their health. Adapted housing will be affected. permission of the Chairman of Ways and Means, I Estimates show that some 16,000 households have some intend to call the Front Benchers at 20 minutes to 4, so I form of aid or adaptation already in place. I acknowledge impose a time limit of five minutes per Member. that the UK Government have increased the fund for discretionary housing payments, but the funding is still far below the level of payments that will be lost by 3.23 pm claimants. Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I congratulate Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): The the hon. Member for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck) hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point about the on securing the debate. We shall, of course, have a eight out of 10 households in which a disabled person further opportunity to deal with the issue next week, lives that are affected by the bedroom tax in Scotland. and I look forward to that. Does he accept that if people are to move to one-bedroom I am glad to see the hon. Member for Brecon and properties, those will almost certainly be in the private Radnorshire (Roger Williams) to my left. I hope that he sector, where it will be even harder to get the kind of will soon leap up to defend the Government’s policy. I adaptations that disabled people often need in their am also glad to see my hon. Friend the Member for homes? Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford), because Plaid Cymru, the Scottish National party and the Green party called Mr McKenzie: Absolutely. I fully accept that. I noted a debate on the issue in March. I am glad that the earlier in my speech that the changes are pushing people Labour party is joining us in opposing a cruel and to find accommodation in the private sector, with all the pernicious charge. additional costs involved. The aim of the under-occupancy penalty is, allegedly, to free up the logjam in available housing. That is a Research by the National Housing Federation found laudable long-term aim, and people should clearly move that if the additional funding were to be distributed to make way for younger people with families. equally among every affected claimant of disability living allowance, they would each receive just £2.51 per Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I week, compared with the average £11-a-week loss in thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He mentioned housing benefit in Scotland. The pressure to find smaller my name; I supported the Government’s proposal because homes and flats has become immense. In Inverclyde, I wanted young families to be given the opportunity to there is a huge lack of one-bedroom accommodation. I have better housing. As to the discretionary housing ask the Minister: what are my constituents to do? Many payment, my authority has been allocated £512,000, as will fall into arrears. Housing associations warned the opposed to £60,000 last year. It will not spend it, and Government from the start that the under-occupancy will have to send it back to Government unless something penalty would not work, and that families would face is done. Does the hon. Gentleman think that the DWP financial hardship and struggle to make ends meet. inquiry should include the use of discretionary payments by local authorities? Kate Green: On the point about arrears, does my hon. Friend agree that it is nonsensical that many housing Hywel Williams: That is a good point, to which I associations will not move people who are in arrears intended to refer later. I recently tabled several questions into new accommodation? They will not give them new to the Government about the use of discretionary payments, 49WH Under-Occupancy Penalty5 NOVEMBER 2013 Under-Occupancy Penalty 50WH what planning had gone into them, and what amounts stable area, with a mix of people from working-class were to be available this year and next year. The answers and upper working-class backgrounds and those who were clearly wanting. were almost middle class, who had been there for a long The aim of the charges—freeing up the logjam in the time. They were the sort of people who had seen their availability of three-bedroom houses for younger people—is children move on, but still lived in three-bedroom houses, laudable in the long term. However, one of my fundamental and who provide for such estates the anchor and stability objections is that the Government are using tenants as a that we think are so important; yet the Government battering ram to free up that logjam. Tenants are carrying want them to move on. I understand that the technical the burden of the charge and will have to find alternative term is “forced decanting”, which is very bad. accommodation, when there is none available. That is In the short time available to me, I want to point out pernicious, and destructive of communities. That is one that we might be left with a further supply of houses reason, indeed, for my opposition to the charge. that are hard to let, not because they are in difficult areas or do not have basic facilities, but because they Dr Whiteford: My hon. Friend makes a good point have three bedrooms. If the policy actually succeeds, about the allocation of houses, and the need for housing that will be a potential waste of resources. for families; does he agree that social housing, which is I end by referring briefly to funding for hardship. My always the cheapest available, should be allocated on local authority has a group—it brings in people from the basis of need, not household size? Shelter, the Department for Work and Pensions and Members of Parliament—to administer such funding. Hywel Williams: That is an excellent point. The need It has added substantially to that fund, with the result has in some ways been artificially generated, and that is that the number of people in arrears is fairly small, and not a sensible basis for housing policy, even if people I hope that we will have no evictions. I would like to are able to move. However, some hon. Members will hear the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East have read in The Independent today that 96% of people (Emma Reynolds), who will speak for the Labour party, are unable to move home. pledge that the Labour Government in Wales will have a “no evictions” policy. Local authorities and housing I tabled a question to the Secretary of State, asking associations are doing their best; it is time for other “what estimate he has made of the number of people in Wales people to step up to the plate. who will move house as a result of the social housing under-occupancy penalty.” The answer was quite revealing: 3.31 pm “The Department is not able to reliably estimate the number of Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to people in Wales who will move house as a result of the Removal serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I congratulate of the Spare Room Subsidy due to the small sample sizes involved.”— my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields [Official Report, 4 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 95W.] (Mrs Lewell-Buck) on securing this most important That reveals a great deal, including the fact that the debate and on her fantastic speech. Government do not expect huge numbers of people to A senior officer from one of my social housing providers move. They expect, I understand, to make substantial has said: savings on housing benefit. That is the reality, and the “It is as if the Government was following a blueprint of how to answer is something of a give-away. ruin social housing within 5 short years.” Earlier in the year, I asked the Government what Let me give the background to why she said that. Since research they had undertaken into the private sector, April, Bolton at Home has had arrears of £200,000. and private market elasticity—the sector’s ability to Many people are only partially paying their rent, and respond to an increased demand for one-bedroom places. 9% of those in debt have arrears of more than £600. I was told that no such research had been undertaken Bolton at Home is about to take 25 cases to court before the measures were brought in. There would because of arrears due solely to the bedroom tax. apparently be research in 2015, and reports would be Wigan and Leigh Housing has arrears of £650,000 and published in 2016. That will be, of course, more than the number of people in debt has nearly doubled to two and a half years after the charge was brought 11,500, so it has revised its income rate to 96% of the in—two and a half years of suffering by people who can amount it should get. scarcely afford to lose 12% or 25% of their benefit. There are knock-on effects on costs. Providers now We have heard that particular groups are affected, have to deal with an increased number of calls to the such as disabled people, who have a legitimate need for call centre and to employ more people to collect rents. extra space. I have constituents who have been charged There are increasing court costs, and many other costs extra. One such gentleman said, “I shall certainly move besides. All providers are finding it harder to let three- from my house, which has been adapted—there is a new bedroom houses, and have had to increase the number bathroom at the back, and a stair lift—and move to a of void days on which they do not collect rent, which smaller place. The council can then put in a new stair again costs them dear. lift, and a new bathroom at the back; and then I will The Minister of State, Department for Work and move again.” It is folly. There are single parents without Pensions, the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther care who will take children for a day or so at the McVey), has told social housing providers to knock weekend, who will lose out. down three-bedroom houses and build something suitable. More fundamentally, there is an effect on estates. We I would question her reasoning in the first place, but talk a lot about social life degenerating, and about where are they supposed to find the money to alter things not being as good as they used to be. By the way, houses or to build new ones when they are losing so I was brought up on a council house estate. It was a much money because of the policy? 51WH Under-Occupancy Penalty5 NOVEMBER 2013 Under-Occupancy Penalty 52WH

[Julie Hilling] deemed to be under-occupied by two rooms. That is absolute nonsense. They cannot get discretionary housing If the policy is so successful, why have the Government payments, because he gets disability living allowance, recently increased the discretionary housing payment which just enables them to get about and to lead as pot by millions? Welcome though that is, it demonstrates normal a life as possible, bringing them up to other how the policy is just not working. It is ill thought out, people’s income. The DLA is taken into account, which and in areas such as mine the majority of the housing puts them over the rate at which they would qualify. stock is three-bedroom, so it will do nothing to alleviate Does the Minister think it right that DLA is taken into overcrowding. It hinders the building of new homes and account? If not, will he do something to change that? simply places people in abject poverty. I will finish with a quote from another of my housing Behind housing providers’ problems are real-life providers: difficulties for real people. Most of us would think that “It’s the first time I’ve ever seen a policy applied retrospectively. people with two children would be suitably housed in a We are used to managing change, but not when the goalposts are three-bedroom house, but sadly not this Government. moved overnight.” Indeed, the Secretary of State for Education clearly The policy is cruel and heartless. It will not achieve the agrees with me, because he thinks that every pupil savings predicted by the Government. It will not allow should have a bedroom in which to do their homework. the building of new homes and it is causing untold He should speak to colleagues in other Departments misery. I wish the Government would rethink: do as the who think it entirely appropriate for a 15-year-old studying Labour party says and abandon this cruel, heartless tax for their GCSEs to share their bedroom with a crying now. toddler, or for children to have their education disrupted when their parents are forced to move home—not once, but several times—when they or their siblings reach a milestone age at which the family’s accommodation is 3.37 pm deemed unsuitable. Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Stephen Doughty: My hon. Friend is describing a Mrs Riordan. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member common circumstance, certainly from the stories I hear for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck) on securing this from my constituents. Does she agree that the cumulative incredibly important debate and on her outstanding impact—the stresses caused by high energy prices, the contribution. Many passionate speeches have been made bedroom tax and all these things coming together, by my hon. Friends, but there is a notable absence of particularly for disabled and vulnerable people—is causing Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members, and we pain and distress to many of our constituents? have not yet heard a single speech from Government Members. I welcome the Minister and congratulate him Julie Hilling: My hon. Friend’s intervention leads me on his appointment. This is, I am sure, the first of many nicely to a study by York university and the Northern occasions on which we shall debate housing. Housing Consortium, “Real Life Reform”, which states: The truth is that there is a chronic shortage of homes “Households are surviving on restricted budgets and struggling in our country, and we are building fewer than half the to get by. 65% have less than £10 per week to live on following rent number we need to keep up with demand. Not only is and essentials such as food and bills. 37% have nothing left each the bedroom tax cruel and unfair, but it is exacerbating week. Households are intending to cut back spending on food and fuel. 25% spend less than £20 per week on food. Eight out of the housing crisis that we face. The Government are in ten households are already in debt and 83% are worried about denial not only about the effect of the bedroom tax, but getting into more debt. Over half of those in debt doubt they’ll about the scale of the housing crisis. Two weeks ago, in ever be able to clear these debts… Households are reporting his first media appearance, the Minister, who has increases in levels of stress and depression. 88% of households responsibility for housing, denied on “Channel 4 News” are worried welfare changes will impact on their health and that there is a housing crisis, yet the very next day, the wellbeing. Parents report they are going without to protect their Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local children’s health.” Government, the hon. Member for Grantham and That is a story of absolute misery. Stamford (Nick Boles), who has responsibility for planning, I want to tell a story about two of my constituents, said in Westminster Hall that there is a housing crisis whom I will call Mr and Mrs Smith to protect their and that it is particularly intense in some parts of the identity. Mrs Smith came to see me at my surgery country, including pockets of Yorkshire, which is where because she was absolutely desperate. She came with the Minister’s constituency is. People often say that her mother, but actually looked older than her mother Departments work in silos, but it is quite incredible to because of the worry and stress she was going through. have a division of opinion within one Department—the Her husband is desperately ill, having had a double lung Department for Communities and Local Government. transplant. Sadly, he is unlikely to survive. He needs The chronic housing shortage is clear for all to see apparatus to help him to breathe, so there is no way she and the Government are presiding over the lowest level can share a bedroom with him. The box room is full of of house building since the 1920s. As soon as they took oxygen tanks, and the fire brigade has said that no one office, they cut the affordable homes budget by 60%. can sleep in a room with oxygen tanks, because of the Home ownership is falling and private rents are soaring. risks. Five million people are on the waiting list for social Mr Smith sleeps in one room, Mrs Smith sleeps in housing, and homelessness and rough sleeping have another—she cannot sleep with him because of the both risen by more than a third since the general apparatus and the noise it makes—and oxygen tanks election. The reality is that the bedroom tax is making and other equipment occupy the box room, but they are the housing crisis worse, not better. 53WH Under-Occupancy Penalty5 NOVEMBER 2013 Under-Occupancy Penalty 54WH

The Government continue to maintain that the bedroom in this Government’s policy. They need to get a grip not tax is about tackling overcrowding, but, as my hon. only on the implications of the bedroom tax for the Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) most vulnerable and poorest people in our country, but has said, the tax is not about making the best use of the on its impact on housing supply. I hope that they also social housing stock; it is about saving money, and it is get a grip on the housing crisis that is affecting families questionable whether it will do that. Indeed, it is making in my constituency and across the country. the poorest people across our country even poorer and costing an average family £720 a year. On the same day 3.44 pm that the tax came into force, every millionaire in the country got an average tax cut of more than a hundred TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities grand. and Local Government (Kris Hopkins): What a pleasure and privilege it is, Mrs Riordan, to serve for the first Two-thirds of those hit by the bedroom tax are time under the chairmanship of a fellow Yorkshire MP. disabled. Some 220,000 are families with children, and I congratulate the hon. Member for South Shields many tenants want to move but simply cannot find a (Mrs Lewell-Buck) on securing this important debate suitable property to move to. My hon. Friend the Member and on the passion with which she delivered it. We may for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) said that in her constituency not agree on some of the points, but I know how much of the housing stock is three-bedroom properties, sincerely she presented her case, and I appreciate that. which is the case in other parts of the country, including my own constituency. The hon. Lady raised two constituency issues relating to Ashley, who is disabled. If she will write to me about The bedroom tax is also hitting housing supply. As them, I will attempt to give her a formal and proper many of my hon. Friends have underlined, local authorities response, rather than just having a discussion across the are suffering. Areas such as Wolverhampton, Nottingham Chamber. She talked about the 1 million new houses and elsewhere have to put money into helplines to that the Labour party proposes to build. I presume that ensure that people are not left without housing. The tax the money will come out of bankers’ bonuses at some is also having an impact on affordable housing budgets, point. I realise that after some 13 years in government particularly for housing associations. A survey by the and the many decades since Macmillan was in power, National Housing Federation found that a quarter of we have never actually hit the figure of 240,000 houses. households affected have fallen behind in their rent for I am not sure how Labour will pay for them. Perhaps we the first time ever. Such arrears have major consequences have a common aspiration to deliver that number of for house building, too, and they are jeopardising the houses during the period when we are in government. ability of housing associations to borrow, plan for the future and, ultimately, build more homes. Emma Reynolds: Will the Minister admit that, in I have a number of questions to which I would like terms of completions, the Government have done a the Minister to respond. In particular, what assessment very poor job? Since the Government came to power, has his Department made of the rent arrears for councils housing completions have been at their lowest since the and housing associations and of the impact that those 1920s—only 107,000 properties in 2010-11. That is simply arrears are having on their ability to build the affordable not good enough. In our period in office, in 2007-08, we homes that we so desperately need? How many homes hit 170,000 properties, and we have said that we will aim are standing empty across the country because of this to build more than 200,000 a year by 2020. That is a failed policy, and how many councils have received realistic objective. permission from the Minister’s Department to draw money from the housing revenue account to protect the Kris Hopkins: Let me say that Labour presided over a most vulnerable? I understand why they want to protect period of massive boom, yet it still managed to secure the most vulnerable from the impact of the policy, but, fewer affordable houses by the end of that period—420,000 as several of my hon. Friends have said, that is having houses. I appreciate the aspiration, but now I want to an impact on the money that they are able to spend on make some further comments and respond to the Members repairs and new homes. who have spoken. The bedroom tax is cruel and unfair, and it simply is The hon. Members for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), not working. The Labour party has pledged to scrap it. for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) and for Wolverhampton Far from tackling overcrowding, the bedroom tax is North East (Emma Reynolds) talked about arrears. exacerbating the biggest housing crisis in a generation—a That is a matter that we are watching and we are keen to housing crisis that the new Minister says does not exist. understand the consequences of the new system. A We beg to differ. Perhaps the Government want to review will be published next spring that will help us in forget that they are presiding over the lowest level of that regard. house building since the 1920s. The hon. Members for Edinburgh East jested about The Labour party is determined to get a grip on the portaloos and outside toilets. In the lead-up to the 2010 issue. The bedroom tax is having a negative impact not general election, I visited a house with an outside toilet. only on the poorest in our society, but on the number of They are not a fantasy, or even an issue to jest about; houses being built. they exist. Some of the housing stock out there is appalling, which leads me to the meat of my speech. Hywel Williams rose— Sheila Gilmore: Will the Minister clarify whether Emma Reynolds: I am nearly out of time. some of the worst housing is in the private rented We want to get Britain building again and have sector? As far as I am aware, in my city and throughout pledged that, by the end of the next Parliament, we will Scotland, no homes in the housing association and double house building. Something radical needs to change council sector have outside toilets. 55WH Under-Occupancy Penalty5 NOVEMBER 2013 Under-Occupancy Penalty 56WH

Kris Hopkins: The hon. Lady is right. The house that despite a reduction of a third, we are still paying £120 million I was talking about was in the private sector. In my a day in interest and we have a responsibility to address period in local government, the housing stock in my that. city was absolutely appalling. The then Government rightly wanted to intervene, but the then Labour-led Kate Green: Will the Minister give way? council refused to support such intervention. The idea that—[Interruption.] I want to conclude this section Kris Hopkins: I am sorry, but I will not give way. and move on to the rest of my speech. It is being Despite the fact that we have this huge deficit, we suggested that we had a utopian social housing model wanted to ensure that the burden that was placed on before 2010 and then somehow we made a transition to this sector was as small as possible. In fact, it is 0.3% of an uncaring world, where no one cares about social the deficit reduction strategy that was put in place. housing. Let me tell Members that my parents were brought up in a council house. I lived in a council house Answering the question about supply, the Government and I care about those individuals. I want to talk have already delivered 334,000 houses; we have made a about—[Interruption.] I will continue, because we do commitment of £20 billion to deliver 170,000 houses not have much time. before the end of this financial spending period; and we have made further commitments of £23 billion to deliver I will make one final point on the interventions and another 165,000 affordable houses. So I am afraid that the comments that were made. The hon. Member for the idea that money is not being raised or that councils Bolton West (Julie Hilling) talked about Mr and Mrs or housing associations do not have the ability to deliver Smith, and I understand why she talked about people in affordable housing is false. Despite the limited resources that anonymous way. Again, I say to her that if there is that are available, the Government have been absolutely anything I can do to respond to the concerns of those committed to delivering affordable housing, and we will individuals, I will do so. I would be grateful if she wrote continue to deliver it. to me, and I would seek to get an appropriate response. Rather than talking about imaginary numbers of a billion houses over the next period, let me say that Hywel Williams: I refer back to a point that the Labour clearly failed to deliver in a time of boom. For a Minister made earlier when he referred to research into period of 13 years—it was 11 years of boom— Labour the charge, to understand what has happened. Will he failed to hit the target that it was talking about. And it concede that the usual progress of social policy is that has not said how it would fund its plan to address this there is research first, then planning, then implementation issue. and then a review? That is the usual way that it is done. On the ground out there at the moment, there is real growth in supply. The construction industry is running Kris Hopkins: There was a significant amount of at a six-year high; the construction sector has said that research into the whole issue of welfare reform, which it has had a higher expansion in the past six months was debated at length, so I do not think that anyone than it has had for some time; and most of that construction came to this view without understanding the issue. growth is from housing. So the supply issue is being However, we can only evaluate a process after it has addressed by Britain getting out and building, and we been in place. have resourced that. The Chartered Institute of Purchasing and Supply has said that we are experiencing the highest rate of Hywel Williams: Will the Minister give way on that building for a decade and that housing supply is now at point? its highest since the end of the unsustainable housing boom of 2008. As I said, some 334,000 houses have Kris Hopkins: No, I will carry on, because I want to been built. make some progress. Emma Reynolds: On what figures does the Minister I will just pick up on a point made by the hon. base the statement that he has just made, because even Member for Wolverhampton North East, who said that if we look at starts and completions, it simply cannot be I had said that there was no crisis. Just to provide some the case that this Government have done better than the clarification and so that this myth does not continue, I previous Government? We built more than 2 million will say that I was asked about a housing bubble in homes and 500,000 of them were affordable. He keeps London and whether or not there was a crisis, and there talking about 300,000 houses, but that is over three is not. I actually used the backing of the Governor of years. That is an abysmal record, and he needs to face the Bank of England, who says there is no housing up to it. bubble, and that was what I was specifically referring to. Also, the Chancellor has put in place the means to Kris Hopkins: First, I made the point that Labour intervene on any of the measures that we have in place, was building in a period of boom and still managed to through the Financial Policy Committee; if a bubble reduce the number of affordable houses by 420,000 and was emerging, he could intervene at that point. that, in a very difficult period, we have grown the An issue that has come out in the debate is the number of affordable houses and we have delivered comparison between, “We’ve said it’s about saving money,” them. We said that we would deliver 170,000 houses on and, “You’re saying now it’s about supply.” There is a the basis of a public and private investment of £19.5 billion. need to save money. We inherited a bill that had doubled We have already delivered 84,000 houses, and as I said to some £24 billion by the time we came to power, and it before, we intend to go up to 2018 with a further was important that we addressed it because we ended investment of £23 billion, which will deliver another up with a deficit where we were spending—in fact, 160,000 affordable houses. 57WH Under-Occupancy Penalty5 NOVEMBER 2013 Under-Occupancy Penalty 58WH

Hywel Williams: I am very grateful to the Minister that we have in place. It is important that we do that. We for giving way again; he is so generous. I wish to make a cannot continue to subsidise a million spare rooms. It is genuine inquiry. Will he congratulate the Labour important that people out there—the taxpayers out Government in Cardiff on their success in house building, there—understand that everybody is absolutely making and even possibly the Scottish National party Government a contribution to this process. in Edinburgh as well? I feel extremely uncomfortable that people are turning around and saying that this is an uncaring and— Kris Hopkins: I have great passion for those two areas [Interruption.] What I can say is that I know my of our wonderful country, but I cannot bring myself to commitment to addressing the number of houses that congratulate those two Governments. we have out there and to ensuring people out there have access to affordable housing. Dr Whiteford: The Minister may not be aware that the Scottish Government have taken on a very ambitious Ian Lavery: The Minister is saying that the Government programme of house building in Scotland that far exceeds are not uncaring. If they are attacking 400,000 disabled anything that went before in the devolution era. However, people, by reducing their benefit when they have nowhere the private sector housing that is coming on stream is else to go, how is that caring? significantly more expensive than the housing that people are currently living in, so I do not believe that the policy Kris Hopkins: In any transition from one state to that we are discussing today is saving any money. I hope another, we need to take responsibility to ensure that that he will be able to say categorically today that it is there are sufficient resources to make that transition saving housing benefit costs. happen. That is why, despite the difficult financial circumstances that we find ourselves in, we have invested Kris Hopkins: What I will say is that, in my early days some £405 million, including £25 million of discretionary in this post, I assure the hon. Lady that if I can learn payments to disabled people, to make that transition anything about building more houses, because that is right. really important to the economy of our country, I shall With the process that we have gone through, what is inquire— important is that we understand the issues involved—I particularly want to understand the issues about arrears— Mr McKenzie: Will the Minister give way? and make sure that we are building the supply of houses and continuing to grow it. When the opportunity comes Kris Hopkins: No, I will not give way. In fact, I will to understand further, when the interim report is published give way in a second or two, but not just at the moment. in April next year, I hope that we will be able to address I reiterate that we recognise that this is about reducing many of the issues that Members have raised in Westminster the burden on the Government and the amount of debt Hall today. 59WH 5 NOVEMBER 2013 NHS Funding (North-East and 60WH Teesside) NHS Funding (North-East and Teesside) level less than we were forecasting… So for 2013-14, we have been contracted to respond to 376,000 incidents, although we are forecasting activity at an estimated 415,000. This means that any 3.59 pm incidents above 376,000 will be funded on a one-off basis rather than as recurrent annual income. These arrangements do not Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East allow us to enhance our own workforce plan because the money Cleveland) (Lab): This is an important opportunity to for the additional activity will not be available next year to fund discuss concerns that my north-east colleagues and I the extra salaries, overheads and vehicles we need to meet the have. I hope that the Minister takes our points on extra demand.” board, and takes the necessary steps to rectify the issues in the region’s health service. Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful speech. Is he aware that Cleveland I will discuss four topics this afternoon. The first is police vehicles and staff are also being increasingly used the funding provided by central Government to the as unofficial ambulances? region’s accident and emergency departments, particularly in the south Tees area. The second is the funding of the North East Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust, Tom Blenkinsop: Yes, the police, and particularly the and the rising use and cost of private ambulances. The police and crime commissioner for Cleveland, have third is the ongoing Monitor investigations into the two raised that with me in private meetings on first responder foundation trusts—the South Tees Hospitals NHS calls. They have funding worries about what will happen Foundation Trust and the Tees, Esk and Wear Valleys if such practices continually recur. NHS Foundation Trust—that serve my constituents. The NEAS letter shows that there will be more cuts, Finally, I will seek reassurance from the Minister on more private ambulances and possibly a less responsive future funding allocations to north-east clinical service. It is not me saying that, but the chief operating commissioning groups. officer of the North East Ambulance Service. The figures Over the past 18 months, the accident and emergency are stark. In 2008-09, 865 call-outs were attended by department at James Cook university hospital, which private ambulances in our region, costing £86,000. In serves my constituency, has come under particular pressure. 2009-10, some 1,816 call-outs were attended by private In the run-up to winter last year, there were problems ambulances, costing £151,000. In 2010-11, however, with handover times; ambulances and paramedics waited 6,429 call-outs were attended by private ambulances, up to two and a half hours to admit patients, despite the costing £477,000, which is a huge jump. In 2011-12, national target time being 15 minutes. I raised that last there were 9,000 call-outs attended by private ambulances, year with the Secretary of State for Health, who agreed costing £639,000. In 2012-13, 13,524 call-outs were that the situation was completely unacceptable, and I attended by private ambulances, costing £754,000. So raised it with the Minister on 13 February 2013 in a since 2010, there has been a fivefold increase in private Westminster Hall debate on A and E provision in the ambulance costs in the north-east, with the funds going north-east. In addition to the issues that I raised with to private contract firms. It is obvious that from 2010 the Secretary of State, it has become evident that the onwards, there has been an explosion of private ambulance James Cook hospital’s A and E department struggled to usage by the trust, costing a huge amount of taxpayers’ manage with the pressure caused by winter. funds. The chief executive states: In January and February 2013, the South Tees Hospitals “These arrangements do not allow us to enhance our own NHS Foundation Trust failed to meet its target of workforce plan because the money for the additional activity will not be available next year to fund the extra salaries, overheads seeing 95% of A and E patients within four hours. With and vehicles we need to meet the extra demand.” James Cook hospital so clearly overstretched, I admit that I was surprised to discover in September 2013 that A third issue of particular concern to my constituents the Secretary of State decided not to award it, or any is that both the NHS trusts that serve them—the South hospital trust in the north-east, funding to alleviate the Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, and the Tees, pressure on A and E departments. It is beyond belief Esk and Wear Valleys NHS Foundation Trust—have that, of the £250 million awarded by the Secretary of found themselves under investigation by Monitor in the State between 53 trusts, not a penny will reach the past 12 months. Since May 2010, the South Tees trust north-east, particularly as we live in a region that suffers has failed on seven occasions to meet its referral-to- from some of England’s harshest winter weather and treatment target, most recently between March and has some of the harshest local government cuts in the August. That has resulted in the Monitor investigation, country.I hope that the Minister reconsiders that allocation, because the trust has failed to ensure that 90% of or at the very least clarifies why the Secretary of State patients commence treatment within 18 weeks of referral. made such a seemingly absurd and regionally disparate Furthermore, there has been an increase in reported decision. “never” events at the trust, and an increase in the incidence of clostridium difficile. Recurrently, over many weeks, I have received expressions of concern from constituents about the increasing use Despite the seriousness of those issues, Health Ministers of private ambulances in response to 999 calls in my have taken no action. My constituents would at the very constituency. I corresponded with the North East least expect Ministers to have had conversations with Ambulance Service on two such incidents, and its reply Monitor and the trust on the issue, and on what support made it clear that central Government funding cuts are the Department of Health can provide, yet the Under- eroding that blue-light service: Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), confirmed to me in a written “Each year we have discussions with our commissioners on the forecast number of incidents in the forthcoming year. The outcome answer that of these discussions for 2013-14 were that commissioners felt it “No such discussions have taken place with Ministers.”—[Official necessary to set our income on activity for the next 12 months at a Report, 22 October 2013; Vol. 569, c. 83W.] 61WH NHS Funding (North-East and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 NHS Funding (North-East and 62WH Teesside) Teesside) Will the Minister please assure me that he will closely allocation—it would probably never happen. This becomes monitor the situation and have discussions with both a self-defeating, vicious circle of a lack of investment in Monitor and the South Tees trust on how the Department people who might need it the most. can provide support, including additional funding if As I was saying, the proposals in a recent working necessary? paper issued by NHS England on the allocation and the My final point is on allocations to the north-east’s indicative target allocation would have led to a per clinical commissioning groups. capita reduction in funding for CCGs throughout the A recent working paper issued by NHS England on north-east, and my constituents would have lost out. allocation and indicative target allocation outlines proposals Meanwhile, CCGs in the south would have had a per that will reduce per-capita funding for CCGs across the capita increase; for example, those covered by Coastal north-east. People in Sunderland will each face a £146 West Sussex CCG would each gain £115, those in cut, people in south Tyneside a £124 cut, people in Hailsham £136, and those covered by South Eastern Gateshead a £104 cut, and people in my constituency a Hampshire CCG £164. That is clearly not a one-nation £60 cut. NHS. I received ministerial assurances that that formula was not ultimately used for 2013-14, but a response to a Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Is it not perverse that parliamentary question that I asked confirmed that deprivation and health inequality indicators are not “No proposals or decisions regarding allocations for 2014-15 part of the overall calculation, as regards the funding have yet been made.”—[Official Report, 22 October 2013; Vol. 569, allocation for the north-east? That will potentially result c. 76W.] in the north-east losing up to £230 million of NHS The hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton), funding per annum. who is in the Chamber, told the Evening Gazette on 23 October that it was indeed “right” that NHS England Tom Blenkinsop: Yes, the cumulative effect of all the was considering reducing health funding for his constituents funding allocations in different areas is very worrying. and the north-east, but— If those allocations are all reduced, my genuine worry for my constituents, and for constituents across the James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): The hon. north-east, is that all the hard work and financial effort Gentleman has either misread or misremembered, or in Teesside in the past 15 years to reduce cardiac risk, perhaps the Evening Gazette did not give a full account bad outcomes for cancer, and other problems will be of my comments. What I said was right was having an undermined, and we will not build on the momentum independent funding body that makes decisions based gathered over the past 15 years. on a formula that is consulted on, and it is right that age should be a factor. That does not mean that deprivation should not be a factor. I recognise and welcome the Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): debate, and the effort that hon. Members in all parties Is that not all the more outrageous because a former are making to put the case that deprivation has an Health Minister, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford impact on health outcomes and should be considered as (Mr Burns), gave a clear assurance at Health Question part of the funding formula. I recognise, however, the Time on the Floor of the House that the importance of independence of NHS England, and I support it being the deprivation part of the calculation would not be an independent body. Does he recognise its independence? downgraded? We asked for a clear assurance, and we were given a clear assurance. That assurance is not Tom Blenkinsop: I recognise the health outcomes and compatible with the current consultation. needs of my local constituents; as their representative, I will voice those views and needs vociferously. I take on Tom Blenkinsop: My right hon. Friend predicts the board, however, the hon. Gentleman’s comments and final part of my speech. I hope the Minister will take his desire to see deprivation recognised in the allocation the opportunity to put our fears to rest. Unfortunately, of funds. On the future allocation for CCGs, I hope that the information that I have received to date does not he will advocate to the Minister on behalf of those of reassure me. his constituents who share the same socio-economic background as me, in the way that we Labour Members Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I compliment do. I take his intervention in favour of those funds in a my hon. Friend on securing such a timely and important spirit of common north-eastern friendship. debate. I completely agree that one of the most worrying Will the Minister assure us that he will urge NHS aspects is the potential changes to the funding of clinical England to consider deprivation and regional health commissioning groups. Easington would lose £62 a inequalities when determining funding formulae? head. Does he agree that that could be seen as political Furthermore, will he guarantee that any funding formula gerrymandering, with the poorest areas deprived of used to determine allocations in 2014-15 will not leave funding and the wealthiest, such as east Hampshire, the north-east comparatively worse off, and will not getting increases of as much as £164 a head? The areas widen the north-south health divide? I thank the Minister with the best health outcomes will get the biggest increases for his time, and I hope that he will be able to provide in resources. the clarifications and assurances that my colleagues and I have sought this afternoon. Tom Blenkinsop: My hon. Friend has mentioned that in Health questions and in the Select Committee on 4.13 pm Health, of which he is a doughty member who provides a lot of input. Someone from a poorer socio-economic The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health background has a lower likelihood of reaching the age (Dr Daniel Poulter): It is a pleasure to serve with you in at which they would receive more funds under the the Chair, Mrs Riordan. 63WH NHS Funding (North-East and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 NHS Funding (North-East and 64WH Teesside) Teesside) [Dr Daniel Poulter] formula—to avoid political interference—and those in NHS England, in conversation, have made it clear that A lot of political smoke has been blown across the they also value a weighting apportioned to deprivation. Chamber today by the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop). I have a Grahame M. Morris: Will the Minister give way? lot of time for him personally, and he came to see me earlier in the year to express some legitimate concerns Dr Poulter: No, I will not give way. I have said things about the performance of his local trust. On the basis of clearly for the record, without any political smoke. our meetings, I hope to reassure him that there has been As a Government, when we had control of the funding considerable progress locally in his area. formula, we clearly put in a weighting for deprivation More broadly, it is worth setting the record straight and for some of the poorest communities. I am proud on some of the points made today. We have had discussion that we did so, but it is now for an independent body to about the ambulance service, which I will come to, and look at the case and at the independent advice that it we have talked about winter pressures, which I will has been given. I would find it extraordinary, however, address. First, however, on the funding formula, my if it were not to factor deprivation into its decision hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James making, although there are other factors that it will Wharton) was right to point out that it is set independently want to put into the equation, such as the fact that older of the Government. Before we handed independent people are the greatest users of health care, so places formula setting to NHS England, the Government made with lots of older people also need to be recognised. A it clear that deprivation is a factor and it is taken into number of factors will be taken into consideration, and account in the current arrangements. There is a deprivation will be one of them. I have been reassuring 10% weighting for deprivation in the funding formula, about that, and I will not allow the Labour party or any which as a Government we ensured was preserved in the hon. Member to make mischief with something that the formula. Under the new arrangements, there is more Government have stood by. political independence in setting the funding formula. Ian Lavery: Will the Minister give way? Grahame M. Morris: Will the Minister give way? Dr Poulter: No, I will not give way any more. I have Dr Poulter: Not at the moment. The independent clarified the point considerably, and the hon. Gentleman Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation, or ACRA, would do well to listen. I will not allow the Labour as hon. Members have mentioned in the debate, historically party to make political mischief, when my party has has advised that the funding formula should be readjusted made it clear that we value the deprivation weighting. to take into account demographics and the increased In fact, if we look at the public health allocations to health care needs of older populations in other parts of every local authority, they have been generous. As I the country. The Government, however, in the past hope to reassure hon. Members, we can see that the chose to maintain support for deprivation as a factor in health care funding allocations to the north-east have health care funding, but the decision is now not one for also increased under this Government, so the assertion the Government. It is now for NHS England to listen to that funding to the north-east is being reduced is clearly the independent advice, but I would find it strange were not the case. there a sudden change in the funding formula that did The Government have increased the NHS budget, not factor in deprivation, as done in the past. which the shadow Secretary of State described as It is important to set the record straight. The decision “irresponsible”. At the same time, the Labour-led Welsh is not political; in the past, the Government preserved a Assembly Government have cut the budget by more weighting for deprivation, but now the decision will be than 8%; in England, however, we have ensured that we taken separately by NHS England. Its decision will be have increased the health care budget in real terms. In made on the basis of clinical need, although of course the north-east specifically, CCGs have received an above- deprivation will be a factor. real-terms increase in funding for 2013-14 of 2.3%, compared with the primary care trusts’ funding for the Mr Nicholas Brown: I asked the Minister’s predecessor equivalent set of services last year. Opposition Members for a clear assurance that he would not downgrade the should be pleased about increases in funding for the importance of economic deprivation in his resource north-east, because if the Opposition spokesman were allocation formula. The Minister’s predecessor, once he Secretary of State at the moment, he would have considered had consulted the Secretary of State at Health questions, that irresponsible. then said: Ian Lavery: If the proposals in the consultation document “Yes, I can give that assurance.”—[Official Report,12June 2012; Vol. 546, c. 167.] had been implemented this year, can the Minister confirm that the north-east would have lost out to the tune of a It is impossible to misunderstand what was being said. little more than £228 million? What weight can we put on that now? Dr Poulter: The hon. Gentleman is right in saying Dr Poulter: My predecessor was in place when setting that had the Government followed the advice of the the resource allocation was in the Government’s gift. As Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation in the the then Minister made it clear, a weighting in the past, we would potentially have cut the budget for formula for deprivation would be preserved—he stood the north-east. I can reassure him that we maintained by his word and that weighting was preserved. NHS the resource allocation budget, and the north-east has England, not the Government, now sets the funding received an increase in real terms. Those are the facts. 65WH NHS Funding (North-East and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 NHS Funding (North-East and 66WH Teesside) Teesside) He may want to create political smoke, but there is highlighting the fact that further investment has been none. We preserved and increased funding to the north-east made. He is incredibly disingenuous to stand here and for patients in Opposition Members’ constituencies and run down his local health service when considerable in those of my hon. Friends. steps have been made to improve patient care services. For his benefit, I will outline a few more improvements Mr Nicholas Brown: Will the Minister give way? that have been made, so that they are firmly on the record. Dr Poulter: I will not give way again. The hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and Tom Blenkinsop: Will the Minister give way? East Cleveland is being very disingenuous in the points that he is making, and I have put the record straight: Dr Poulter: I will not give way because the hon. health care funding has increased under the present Gentleman should listen to the answers to some of his Government. If I give way again, perhaps he will explain questions and realise that his local health care services why the shadow Secretary of State said it would be are improving thanks to the Government’s increased irresponsible to increase the health care budget in real investment in the health service—[Interruption.] Hon. terms. We all think that would be irresponsible in the Members have been incredibly political in everything current environment. they have said today, and I am putting answers on the record. If the hon. Gentleman does not want to hear I turn to local services in the hon. Gentleman’s them, he should not have raised the debate. constituency. When we discussed the matter earlier this year, he raised specific concerns about Guisborough, The latest data for 27 October 2013 shows that South East Cleveland and Redcar hospitals. He did not put on Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust’s performance the record the fact that matters have improved considerably against the 95% standard for A and E waits is 96.8%. since that meeting with me and local commissioners. Over the last 23 weeks, it has met the national 95% Guisborough urgent care centre is open from 9 to 5 on target for A and E four-hour waits. The local trust is Mondays to Fridays and from 8 to 8 at weekends. East performing very well in treating patients in a timely way Cleveland urgent care centre is open from 9 to 5 on when they arrive at A and E. That is contrary to the Mondays to Fridays and from 8 to 8 at weekends, and points that the hon. Gentleman was trying to make. Redcar urgent care centre is open 24/7. There are currently At James Cook university hospital, the acute admissions no vacancies for clinical staff that affect opening hours, unit is adjacent to the A and E department, so enabling which have been aligned to match service and patient the trust better to manage the flow of patients and to need. The centres will continue to evaluate the situation. ease pressure on A and E. The trust has recruited two It is worth highlighting that three additional nurses additional consultants and six additional junior doctors were recruited to support the urgent care centres in June to the acute medicine departments, so easing pressure 2013, and they are now at full complement, apart from on the A and E department. Considerable investment is one vacant clinical lead post to which the trust is being made, and additional nursing staff have been continuing to try to recruit. It is looking at better ways recruited to support 50 more acute hospital beds that to manage staffing. In response to concerns raised by will be in place this winter. The hon. Gentleman must the hon. Gentleman, there are now fully functioning be aware that there is a lot of investment locally, with urgent care centres. There is a 24/7 service in Redcar more beds, more staff and better care. It is a pity that he and additional staff working at those centres. That is could not acknowledge that in his speech. I am putting good progress and it is disingenuous of him to suggest it on the record, so that his constituents are aware of it. otherwise. Grahame M. Morris: The Secretary of State announced Tom Blenkinsop rose— an additional £250 million to relieve pressure on A and E, but none of it was allocated to any of the hospitals in Dr Poulter: I hope that when I give way, the hon. the constituencies of my right hon. and hon. Friends Gentleman will put on the record the fact that considerable here. progress has been made by local commissioners for the On the incidence of ill health in deprived areas, half benefit of local patients. of the people presenting to hospitals suffering from hepatitis C, which is completely treatable and curable, Tom Blenkinsop: I thank the Minister for giving way come from the poorest 20% and three quarters come during a response to a speech I made in February, from the poorest 40%. Is it not right that additional although I deliberately did not mention those points resources are provided to those poorest areas to tackle because they were not part of what I wanted to talk such diseases? about today. The Minister says that South Tees NHS trust is successful, so why is it under investigation by Dr Poulter: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, Monitor? and that is why the Government have given local authorities the power to deal with sexual health services. He will be Dr Poulter: The hon. Gentleman has raised issues of aware that a major cause of hepatitis C—for the record, health care funding, and I am making the point that it is not curable— there has been considerable investment in local health care services, the very services that he said earlier this Grahame M. Morris: It is treatable. year had received no investment. He is also raising urgent care services and other services at his local Dr Poulter: Indeed, but it is not curable as the hon. hospital trust. I am reassuring him that considerable Gentleman stated. He should get his facts right before investment has been made locally, and it is worth making statements in the Chamber. It is not curable, 67WH NHS Funding (North-East and 5 NOVEMBER 2013 68WH Teesside) [Dr Poulter] The Maldives but it is treatable and the best treatment is prevention, 4.30 pm which is why we have given a considerable amount of money to local authorities to take on the public health Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): It is a pleasure to responsibility and to ensure that local authorities are in serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I welcome the right place to look at primary prevention of the Minister to his place, and thank him very much for transmissible sexual diseases. He will be aware that the interest that he has shown in this subject ever since hepatitis C is sometimes transmitted via the sexual he took up his post. route. The Government have put us in a better place to I start by putting on record my interest in the Maldives. deal with sexual health issues and to tackle them in Before coming to this place, I was a political consultant future. with the Westminster Foundation for Democracy. The There has been talk about ambulances, and it is Maldives was just one of the places that I visited, but it worth highlighting that the most recent data, for September is very close to my heart. Before 2008, a dictatorship was 2013, show that the North East Ambulance Service in place there. It was a country that lived without NHS Foundation Trust is meeting the category A8 red 1 democracy, and where people were in prison for their measure 80.6% of the time and the A8 red 2 measure political views. There was widespread brutality and 80.8% of the time against an operational standard of many innocent people, including many young men and 75%. The ambulance service is doing marvellously well women, were in prison because they dared to suggest in the north-east. It is meeting category B19 with a democracy. performance of 97.7% against an operational standard I first visited in 2008 to help the Maldivian Democratic of 95%. That is a good performance in the north-east party run a campaign akin to those that we run and by anyone’s standard. The ambulance service is performing take for granted here in Britain. I joined my colleague very well. Other ambulance services that may receive James McGrath, who has recently been elected to the more generous funding are struggling, sometimes due Australian Senate. We went to help, and it was very to mismanagement, particularly in my part of the country humbling when we arrived to see the hope and dedication in eastern England. that that party has—and still has, despite everything It is very difficult for the hon. Member for Middlesbrough that has been thrown at its members over many years. South and East Cleveland to make any case for lack of They are, without a doubt, some of the most courageous funding or other problems with his ambulance service people that I have ever met. when health care funding for the north-east is going up The MDP is led by Mohamed Nasheed, who is under this Government and the ambulance service is known as Anni. He is the same age as me, but it is performing well according to national performance almost unbelievable how much he has suffered over the indicators. Those are the facts, and if he did not want years. He is one of the most inspirational people I have them on the record, he should not have raised the ever met. He is a former Amnesty International prisoner debate. of conscience, who has spent great periods of his life in jail and has been beaten and tortured, but who does not It is more in sorrow than anger that I make those give up on his dream of fair and free elections. He is a points. When the hon. Gentleman and I had a constructive man of great principle and he is a great leader. meeting earlier this year to discuss local health care services, there was not the political smoke or the chorus During those elections in 2008, I travelled with Anni backing him that there has been in this debate. Genuine to many islands, taught the MDP about running elections issues were raised about his local health care service, and met so many people who had extraordinary stories and he and I, with local commissioners, worked to put to tell. Dreams do come true: Anni and the MDP won improvements in place. As a result of that meeting, that election with 54% of the vote. Democracy had won there are more staff, more winter beds and more investment the day, and Anni, the former prisoner, was the first in his local trust. The local community hospitals that he ever democratically elected leader in the Maldives. I was so concerned about are in a much better place. returned to Redditch the day before the elections and could not believe that he won so comprehensively, by I am sure the hon. Gentleman will come back to me if such a large margin. I received a text from the editor of further issues arise, but his part of the country is much the local newspaper, who said: better placed than many others to deal with the pressures “So many thoughts about the families that have suffered over of winter. He should be proud of that, and I hope he the last 30 years. My eyes are swelling with tears every now and will take the opportunity after this debate to champion then. It is over Karen. It is really over. We can live in a country his local NHS and the good work at local level by free from fear. People are crying thank you so much.” front-line staff who are delivering improvements. I hope However, it was not over—not by a long way. In fact, it he will take that opportunity and that we will not have was just starting. to come back here and listen to him running down his Anni had promised to reform his country, and he local health services. spent the next three years doing just that. He provided better health care, reformed transport and looked after the elderly, which was everything that he had promised to do, but it was not enough. When the old President left office, he left Anni with some of his most favoured judges. He left a constitutional time bomb for Anni, and on 7 February 2012, it went off. I woke to the shocking news that Anni had resigned, that the vice-president had taken over, and that it was all above board. For those of us who knew Anni, that 69WH The Maldives5 NOVEMBER 2013 The Maldives 70WH could not be right. To this day, I believe that there was a Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): I congratulate coup in the Maldives, and that Anni Nasheed was the hon. Lady on securing the debate. Is she as astonished forced to resign at gunpoint. There were riots all over as I am that members of the Maldivian Supreme Court, Male, many of my friends were beaten and tortured, who are making legal decisions on the conduct and and there were dreadful breaches of human rights. process of the presidential elections in the Maldives, do not have any legal qualifications or legal training? That, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the in itself, is not conducive to elections and decisions that hon. Lady on bringing the matter to the Chamber for are seen as fair, open, transparent, and in the name of consideration. In terms of human rights, is she aware the people. that every person, no matter what their religious background, has to be a Muslim in the Maldives? They Karen Lumley: I thank the hon. Lady for that cannot be an evangelical Protestant or a Roman Catholic— intervention. I totally agree with her. When the elections that is not allowed. Does she feel that the human rights are finally over, I think that the Commonwealth and the of Christians are violated there? rest of the world need to look at helping the Maldives with its constitutional arrangements to ensure that it Karen Lumley: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his can move on in a way that is free and fair. intervention, but most people in the Maldives are happy Let us hope, however, that the elections take place on to be Muslims and want to be Muslims. They are quite Saturday, and that we get a clear winner—somebody relaxed about that. Actually, one thing that I was accused with 50% or more of the votes—or at least that we of when I was there was trying to convert people to manage to get to the second round. A resolution was Christianity, which I obviously was not trying to do. passed by Parliament stating that if there is no winner I met Mohamed here in London in 2012 to see what I on the 9th, the Speaker of the Parliament will head the could do to help. One of the conclusions of that meeting Government as interim President until a President can was that there had to be free and fair elections, and that be democratically elected. I welcome that measure and reform was needed. He also met the Minister’s predecessor, hope that we will at last see President Waheed leave his who was briefed on events. unelected post. I also hope that on 16 November, the second round will provide the Maldives with a In October 2012, I was shocked and saddened to see democratically elected President who can get on with Anni being arrested again and taken away by many men the job. However, I have just heard, in the past hour, in riot gear. Those who know Anni know what a gentle, that the Progressive party of Maldives and the Jumhooree calm and charismatic man he is, and to see him taken by party are still refusing to sign the votes of registry, boat to some wretched island prison was disgraceful. To thereby putting this week’s elections once again in jeopardy. many, this man was their great hope and their democratically I know that the Minister and the Foreign Secretary elected President. Anni was dragged through the courts, have taken a great interest in the Maldives, as did the but thankfully was allowed to stand for election this Minister’s predecessor, but time is running out. As September. Charles Tannock MEP said in the European Parliament That brings us nearly up to date. Anni did everything recently, that was asked of him, waited patiently until elections “The people of the Maldives deserve better than this. They arrived, campaigned in a fair manner and secured 45.45% must have their voices heard and their decisions respected.” of the vote. That was higher than he achieved in the first Time is running out for the Maldives. The international round of elections in 2008. Was that enough? No, of community and the Commonwealth must be ready to course not. The failed politician and wealthy businessman, step in and stand up for their newest democracy. I urge Qasim Ibrahim, had his colleagues in the Supreme the Minister to put whatever pressure he can on the Court annul the elections, which had been called free Commonwealth and the rest of the world to ensure that and fair by the Commonwealth and the EU. the elections go ahead on Saturday and the run-off the week after. I also urge him to look very carefully at the Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I commend reason why the Supreme Court annulled the elections, my hon. Friend on all the work that she has done to claiming that there were dead voters and made-up further the cause of democracy in the Maldives. She names on the register. At least one of those so-called touched on the Commonwealth, which suspended the dead people has, I understand, written to the Minister. Maldives in 2012 for its democracy and human rights Indeed, of the 13 who were supposed to be dead, seven violations. Does she hope that this issue will be high on have now been found living. the agenda at the upcoming Commonwealth Heads of We must be ready to stand up and be counted if Government meeting in Sri Lanka? necessary. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister called Anni Nasheed his new best friend. Let us not let Karen Lumley: I hope that the Maldives will be very our friends down here today. As usual, I look forward high on the agenda at the Commonwealth conference, to the Minister’s reply. and I look forward to the Prime Minister being able to put his case at that meeting. 4.40 pm However, we are where we are today. Elections were The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth held that were cited as free and fair. Two of my colleagues, Office (Mr Hugo Swire): I am very grateful to my hon. one of whom is here today, were there representing the Friend the Member for Redditch (Karen Lumley) for Foreign Office. Strange, isn’t it? What happened smacks securing the debate. I believe that it is her second debate to me of a child who cannot win a board game, so they on the Maldives, her first one being in November 2012. tip over the board. We are here today hoping, I suppose, I am particularly grateful to her for her continued that elections will take place on the newly scheduled interest in the Maldives and her tireless support for date of 9 November. democratic reform there. 71WH The Maldives5 NOVEMBER 2013 The Maldives 72WH

[Mr Hugo Swire] However, such interference has not gone unnoticed. On 30 October, the United Nations High Commissioner I want to speak very explicitly and clearly, because I for Human Rights, Navi Pillay, said in a statement: want to leave no one, particularly anyone in the “I am alarmed that the Supreme Court of the Maldives is Maldives who is listening to what I am saying or who interfering excessively in the presidential elections, and in so will receive a report of it later, in doubt. I want it to be doing is subverting the democratic process and violating the right crystal clear where the Government stand on the of Maldivians to freely elect their representatives.” current situation. The statement also rightly noted: On the problems and the need to support democratic “Judges should act in accordance with the principles of impartiality, reform in the Maldives, that is a desire very much propriety, equality and due diligence”. shared by the Government, who consider the Maldives to be a long-standing friend and international ally, but Navi Pillay also expressed concerns about the reports we are, as my hon. Friend is, deeply dismayed by the of intimidation, noting that the Supreme Court had delays in the democratic process. Democracy in the threatened to charge both lawyers and media with contempt country has been a recent and welcome development. of court for challenging the Court’s decisions. Local The first multi-party presidential elections were non-governmental organisations, including Transparency held—my hon. Friend alluded to them—only in 2008. Maldives, have been subject to inappropriate and We must recognise that the people and the electoral unwarranted threats of investigation and dissolution. process of the Maldives have come a long way in that Such attempts to silence dissent must be condemned. time. Threats against staff at the Elections Commission and Human Rights Commission must be thoroughly The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) investigated and those responsible brought to justice. raised the issue of religious freedom as part of democracy The current Government and those responsible for the and human rights in the Maldives, and he is absolutely impasse should understand that their domestic actions right that the Maldivian constitution stipulates that a are not isolated from the scrutiny of the international non-Muslim may not become a citizen of the Maldives. community. We believe that that provision is a violation of article 48 of the international covenant on civil and political I raised the troubling situation in the Maldives with rights, which was ratified by the Maldives in September my counterparts at the Commonwealth Foreign Affairs 2006. We have raised our concerns about that with the Ministers meeting in New York in September. After all, Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Islamic building, supporting and strengthening democratic rights, Affairs, have urged them to promote religious tolerance freedoms and institutions are values fundamental to the and have supported that through funding projects to Commonwealth. In fact, such is our concern at the promote moderate Islam. Maldives’ disregard for those values that it prompts the question—if the elections do not proceed as Let me revert to the democratic process and the scheduled—of whether it is appropriate for the Maldives democratisation of the Maldives. The evidence is that to be represented at the forthcoming Commonwealth more than 85%—how many of us would like to be able Heads of Government meeting in Colombo. to cite that figure for our own constituencies?—of the electorate voted in the presidential elections on 7 September In addition to what has been done by the UK and the this year, demonstrating their strong commitment to Commonwealth, statements of concern have been issued the democratic process. Polls were judged by international by, among others, India, the US, the EU, the UN and and domestic observers to have been fair, free and those with business interests vital to the Maldivian credible. As the Maldives Elections Commission stated, economy, such as Richard Branson, head of the Virgin the election was described by observers as Group. It is clear that further delays to the elections, and related instability and human rights concerns, will “one of the most peaceful and best” further damage both the Maldives’ international reputation that they had seen. That certainly remains our view. and their economy. However, it is clear that in recent weeks the commitment As my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch noted, demonstrated by the Maldivian people has not been the Maldives’ constitution makes it clear that a new respected by some politicians, whose various manoeuvres, President should be elected by 11 November. With less including calls for military intervention, have sought to than a week to go, there are justifiable worries that that frustrate and impede the democratic process. deadline will not be met and the Maldives will be plunged into uncharted constitutional waters. The Maldives Following what appeared to be a weakly substantiated Parliament—the Majlis—has passed a resolution for legal challenge from an unsuccessful presidential candidate, the Speaker to act as an interim President if required. the Maldives Supreme Court voted to annul the election We hope that that workable solution can be agreed results and ordered a restart of the process. Regrettably, between the parties. the controversy does not end there. On 19 October, the scheduled re-run was cancelled at the last moment, and I stress again that the British Government have taken the Maldives police service intervened to ensure that the a robust stance on this issue and continue to contribute vote could not take place. The cancellation came as a to international efforts to ensure that the vote takes result of the refusal of two candidates to sign the place. That is no less than the Maldivian people deserve. electoral register—one of the 16 onerous conditions The United Kingdom has provided capacity-building imposed by the Supreme Court. That condition in effect support for the Maldives Elections Commission; allows any one candidate to veto the elections, raising funded observer education through the United Nations the possibility, as my hon. Friend the Member for Development Programme; and provided election observers, Redditch says, of further delays. including Members of this House and the other place. 73WH The Maldives5 NOVEMBER 2013 The Maldives 74WH

Karen Lumley: If the elections do go ahead on Saturday Mr Swire: We will be somewhere near the impasse and then there is the run-off the week after, will any that I was so concerned about. We will continue to observers be there from our Parliament to observe the apply whatever pressure we can, and all the different elections? agencies and countries involved, which I have just mentioned, will continue to do that. Mr Swire: So many of our colleagues have gone I was about to answer the questions raised earlier by backwards and forwards like yo-yos to the Maldives in the hon. Member for West Lancashire. I know that she the past few weeks that I am not sure that anyone has is a vice-chair of the all-party group and has visited the the appetite to go again. I have been discussing observers islands. Regarding the capacity of the judiciary, we with the secretary-general of the Commonwealth—I welcome the visit of the UN special rapporteur on the shall say something about that in a minute—but I see independence of judges and lawyers. Her statement from the reaction of certain hon. Friends that they are urged the Maldivian Government to address a number dying to go back to the Maldives, hopefully for the final of challenges hampering the functioning of the judicial time for this election. system in the Maldives, such as training, education and As I was saying, we have funded observer education transparency. Progress in that area is vital, as the special through the UN Development Programme; provided rapporteur suggested, to strengthen the independence election observers, including Members of this House—some of the judiciary in the Maldives. of whom wish to go again—and the other place; and I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch encouraged the EU to provide election experts to keep a that, in the coming days—despite the news we have just close eye on proceedings. We also strongly support the heard, which I think is unconfirmed at the moment—the Commonwealth’s continued commitment to observing Government will, together with the Commonwealth, elections and the engagement of the Commonwealth’s the UN, the EU and international partners, continue to special envoy to the Maldives, Sir Don McKinnon. follow developments in the Maldives closely and to Our high commissioner to Colombo, who is also make our views known. accredited to the Maldives, has been in close contact As the Foreign Secretary said last month, further with key figures. He and his staff have visited the challenges to prevent elections from taking place would Maldives several times in the past two months. He will undermine democracy in the Maldives. The Maldivian be there again this week with the United Nations Assistant people deserve the opportunity to choose their president Secretary-General, the Commonwealth special envoy to in accordance with their constitutional rights. the Maldives, and his American and Indian counterparts. I have spoken to the Commonwealth secretary-general Once again, I thank my hon. Friend and other hon. a number of times, and I shall visit the Maldives on Members for their continued interest in the subject. I 17 November, when I fully expect to be able to pay my urge them to continue to support the people of the respects to the new, democratically elected president. Maldives and the democratic process there in whatever We are frustrated and concerned, but not without way they can. It is imperative that the rescheduled hope. There are practical actions that can be taken elections go ahead as planned. Anything short of that without delay. The voter registers are due to be signed will be unacceptable. I say again to those people listening by candidates today. I am alarmed by what my hon. in the Maldives: the world is watching closely and it Friend the Member for Redditch has just told me, but a wants democratic elections, a democratically elected commitment to do that will help to ensure that the president and no further impediment to that to be elections can take place. created artificially by anyone in that country, which deserves so much better. Rosie Cooper: What can be done to help the process? Question put and agreed to. We will have what is substantially a veto if the election lists are not agreed. If, as is thought, the candidates do not agree to those lists, what does the Minister think 4.54 pm will happen this weekend? Sitting adjourned.

5WS Written Statements5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Statements 6WS

As Minister responsible for sport and equalities, I am Written Statements committed to delivering a lasting sports legacy from London 2012 for all. I would like to update the House Tuesday 5 November 2013 on progress with the delivery of the sport legacy action plan since then. The June “active people survey” showed 15.3 million people doing sport at least once a week, BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS every week. That is 1.4 million more people doing sport than when we won the bid in 2005. There was a slight dip in figures for the previous six months, due to the New Debt Management Protocol exceptionally cold weather in January and March. The meta-evaluation of the 2012 games impact and legacy benefits was published in July. Some 36% of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, children aged five to 10, 52% of children aged 11 to 15, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): A new voluntary and 25% of young adults aged 16 to 24 reported that protocol is now in place for commercial debt management the games had motivated them to do more sport. companies, which will provide greater protection for consumers. The annual children participation figures published in “Taking Part”in September remained largely unchanged A total of 22 companies, who supply more than half since 2008-09. While some measures showed a slight of the commercial market, have signed up to the protocol decrease, there had been a significant increase since which went live on 1 October 2013. 2010-11 in the rate of 11 to 15-year-olds who had The firms have agreed not to charge upfront fees and played cricket, dodgeball, rounders, tennis, table tennis, to spread the recovery of their set-up fees evenly over at basketball, badminton and taken part in cross-country, least the first six months, ensuring that plans are affordable jogging or road running and athletics. and sustainable for the consumer. They will also have to Elite Sport tell consumers free debt advice and management services are available and that there are other debt relief options. Elite Funding Creditors will also benefit from the protocol as they will In June, UK Sport published the medal targets for have more reassurance over repayment of their debts summer Olympic and Paralympic sports for their targeted and will always be told when a customer is in a debt competition events in 2013. UK Sport continues to management plan. track their progress towards Rio 2016. The protocol commits companies to: As part of the continued Government funding for No upfront fees for consumers elite sport to 2016, all funded athletes have been asked to give up to five days a year to inspire children and Spreading the cost of setting up a debt management plan over at least six months young people to get involved in sport. UK Sport’s first Telling consumers that free debt advice is available to them survey of this activity, published in July 2013, revealed that athletes had given more than 4,000 days to community Providing payments to creditors from the first month and school sport since London 2012. An assurance for creditors that only sustainable plans will be put forward for them to consider, that is where there is a World-class Facilities realistic commitment to repayment Good progress continues to be made on the Dividing payments pro rata among all creditors transformation of the Queen Elizabeth Olympic park. Providing access for creditors to full financial information All eight of the park venues, including the five sporting about customers (subject to compliance with Data Protection venues, now have operators in place, to manage each of Act principles). the facilities as the park reopens to the public between This is a major step forward for people using commercial now and 2014. companies to manage their debt problems. They will The Copper Box arena reopened in July this year and now have added protections if they use firms signed up the London Lions British basketball league team will to the debt management plan protocol. host 21 games for the 2013-14 season. It is important that consumers should also know that Major Sports Events free advice is available. They can contact the National The UK has had an excellent summer of sport. Debtline on 0808 808 4000 for free and confidential Major events supported by the UK Sport Gold series advice. The Money Advice Service can also signpost include: people to appropriate and free debt advice services and can be contacted on 0300 500 5000. June International Cricket Council Champions Trophy Canoe Slalom, World Cup Series CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Rowing World Cup Series European Athletics Team Championships Sporting Legacy Hockey World League IPC Para-Athletics Grand Prix Final

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, July Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant): In July the London Anniversary Games Athletics and Para Athletics Government and the Mayor of London published “Inspired by 2012”. This report detailed the range of impressive August legacy benefits from London 2012 that had been delivered World Youth Netball Championships one year on from the games. 7WS Written Statements5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Statements 8WS

More than 102,000 students have tried sport in the past year thanks to Sport England’s Active Universities September programme, surpassing its initial target by more than Triathlon World Championship Series Final 20,000. Join In October London Grand Prix Badminton Join In had a target of supporting 10,000 events, Rugby League World Cup across the UK, with 75% of them focusing on sport organisations and the remainder on community activities. They also hosted the “Go Local” event on the Queen November Elizabeth Olympic park which aimed to encourage 2012 UCI Track Cycling World Cup Series volunteers to continue to inspire others to volunteer. An We have also secured the right to host the following evaluation of the summer is currently under way and major sports events: will be published near the end of the year. School Games World Cup Gymnastics 2013 Some 18,253 schools have registered for the school Taekwondo Grand Prix 2013 games, of which 15,342 are fully engaged in the programme. Triathlon World Championships 2014 This is an increase of 16%. Some 2,000 schools have Series gained a school games kitemark (approximately 183 of IPC European Athletics 2014 these achieved the highest “gold” reward—an increase Championships from 69 schools the previous year). Over 100 county BMX Supercross World Cup 2014 festivals of sport took place during the summer and European Judo Championships 2015 winter, involving more than 100,000 young participants. European Wheelchair 2015 Basketball Championships The hugely successful school games national finals Track Cycling World 2016 took place in Sheffield in September; 1,439 of some of Championships the UK’s best young elite athletes, 15% of whom were European Swimming 2016 athletes with disabilities, took part in 12 different sports. Championships Some 535 volunteers, including 411 young people, supported the competitors and spectators. Once again a delegation of young athletes from Brazil took part in three sports We are currently bidding to host more events including: winning 15 medals. In return, the UK will send a team of some of our best young disabled athletes to compete FINA Diving World Series 2014 at Brazil’s school Paralympic-style games in November, European Modern Pentathlon 2015 providing them with valuable experience in competing Championships against high-class international competition at a major World Indoor Athletics 2016 sporting event. Championships PE/School Sport World Half Marathon 2016 Championships Some £150 million per year of ring-fenced funding Men’s Champions Trophy 2016 has now gone directly to primary school head teachers Hockey to spend solely on PE and sporting provision. Men’s World League Hockey 2017 Sport England has provided additional funding to Women’s Hockey World Cup 2018 County Sport Partnerships to provide support and advice to schools on accessing the best sporting opportunities for their pupils. Community A new cadre of 120 primary school teachers with a Places People Play particular specialism in teaching PE is being trained Some 1,361 grassroots sports facilities have now through a pilot scheme delivered by the Teaching Agency. benefitted from nearly £70 million of Sport England Sport England has lowered the ages of their Sportivate investment. and Satellite Club programs from 14+ to 11+ giving all In August, Sport England announced an extra secondary school children more opportunities to participate £40 million to extend the popular Inspired Facilities in community sport. fund to 2017. Ofsted inspectors will report on how well the school Over 83,408 sport makers are now volunteering regularly uses its funding. in their local communities. The programme officially Disability Sport Legacy ended on 30 September, but Sport England will continue to support the volunteers. On 7 September, Sport England announced a further £8 million of national lottery funding to give disabled Another 30,000 14 to 25-year-olds have completed people across the country more opportunities to get the 6-8 week Sportivate coaching course, bringing the into sport: £7 million through a second round of the total number trying new sports to 256,297. Some 80% inclusive sport fund and £1 million in “Get Equipped” a of these have continued to play regularly since completion new disability fund. Sport England also invested £190,000 of the course. into the Special Olympics national summer games in Youth Sport Strategy September which saw 1,700 athletes from England, There are now over 1,181 satellite clubs in secondary Scotland and Wales competing in 12 disciplines over schools. One hundred of these are for girls only. three days. 9WS Written Statements5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Statements 10WS

International Development 7 November 2014. Some 107 members of the reserve An independent evaluation of the international forces were called out under this order last year and inspiration programme has confirmed that more than their continued support is greatly appreciated and valued. 15 million children have benefited from the programme in 20 partner countries. The programme has helped to promote sustainable change in these countries’ sports ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE systems. I will continue to provide quarterly updates to the House on progress with delivery of this plan. Chief Nuclear Inspector’s Annual Report

Tour de France Grand Départ The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey): The independent nuclear regulator, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, the Office for Nuclear Regulation (ONR), has today Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant): I wish to inform published the chief nuclear inspector’s inaugural annual the House that on 2 September 2013 the Department report, which provides information on the performance for Culture, Media and Sport laid a minute recording of the UK nuclear industry. the Government’s commitment to underwrite the 2014 The report is published as part of the ONR’s Tour de France Grand Départ and stage 3 from Cambridge commitment to openness and transparency on an annual to London. I have arranged for the document to be basis. placed in the Libraries of both Houses. The report is based on the areas that the ONR The budget for the event is £27 million. As announced regulates: safety, security, transport and emergency on 10 April 2013, the Government will provide up to preparedness. It also includes information relating to £10 million to support the delivery of the event. Leeds nuclear safeguards where ONR has a duty to ensure city council, on behalf of the Yorkshire local authorities, that the UK’s international responsibilities are met. is contributing £11 million and Transport for London is providing £6 million for stage 3, from Cambridge to Copies of the report can be obtained from the ONR’s London. The Government underwrite, therefore, creates website: a contingent liability for the Department in 2014 of http://www.hse.gov.uk/nuclear/. £27 million. I am pleased to inform the House that very good progress is now being made to develop robust delivery ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS plans for the event. The event owner, the ASO, announced the route for the whole event in Paris on 23 October. We now have an organising committee in place in Leeds, Bovine TB chaired by Sir Rodney Walker, which is working in close partnership with Leeds city council and Welcome to Yorkshire, as well as all the other host authorities. The The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and volunteering programme has been launched and is already Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): Successfully tackling heavily over-subscribed. In addition, Arts Council England bovine TB (bTB) in the badger population is a key has announced £1 million to support a cultural festival element in our strategy to rid England of this disease in Yorkshire, and Sport England funding is available, within 25 years. It is this broad strategy, of which via British Cycling, to ensure a strong sporting legacy badger control is one component, that was endorsed by from the event. the House of Commons on 5 June by a majority of I am confident that planning for the event is now on 61 votes. track, drawing on the expertise and lessons learned The two badger control pilots, in Somerset and from London 2012. Above all, all the key partners are Gloucestershire, were designed to test that controlled working closely together to deliver a first-class event shooting is a safe, humane and effective means of that allows our cyclists to continue to shine, inspires reducing badger numbers. more people of all ages to take up and enjoy cycling and Today I am announcing to the House that the three-week showcases the best of Britain at home and internationally. extension period in the Somerset control area concluded as planned on Friday 1 November. During this period, DEFENCE a further 90 badgers have been removed, giving an overall total of 940 for the first year of the four-year cull. This represents a reduction of 65% in the estimated Global Counter-terrorism Call-out Order badger population before culling began. This will deliver clear disease benefits as part of a four-year cull in the The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Mark Francois): area. With the expiry of the call-out order made on 6 November Before the extension was licensed by Natural England, 2012, a new call-out order has been made under section the advice of the chief veterinary officer was that a 56 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to enable reservists further increase in the number of badgers culled after to continue to be called out into permanent service to the initial six-week period would improve the disease support our wider efforts to counter the threat from control benefits achieved even further and enable them international terrorism and piracy, and to assist our to accrue earlier. With the further removal of badgers maritime security objectives. The order takes effect seen, the extension has been successful in meeting from 8 November 2013 and ceases to have effect on this aim. 11WS Written Statements5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Statements 12WS

While conclusions will need to await the findings of move cables back into the Victorian tunnels and reuse the independent panel of experts, current indications the modern tunnel for rail traffic in the future. With also suggest that the pilot has been safe and humane. completion of the work imminent, that decision needs I would like to pay tribute to the local farmers and to be made now before the tunnels are sealed. landowners who have undertaken the cull, often in Since 2008, much has happened which has helped difficult terrain and weather, and often in the face of inform my decision. The Government have committed intimidation by a small minority who are determined to funding to the northern hub programme. This includes stop this disease control policy. schemes to increase capacity and line speeds on the The eight-week extension period in Gloucestershire Hope valley route. A study recently carried out by began on 23 October and I will make a further statement Network Rail indicates that demand for travel between when operations there have concluded. Manchester and Sheffield could more than double in The independent panel of experts will consider the 30 years. With the planned investment, the Hope valley information collected during the pilots on the safety, line and its trains could accommodate this growth. If effectiveness and humaneness of controlled shooting. freight grows, schemes have also been identified which This will be made available to Parliament and the public could enable more freight trains to run. after the culls have concluded and inform my decision The Victorian tunnels are not in a good condition on the wider roll-out of badger control in those parts of and would require ongoing funding to keep them in a England most severely affected by this disease. condition necessary for possible reuse. These costs would Achieving our aim of ridding England of bTB within fall on the taxpayer or mean less money for other vital 25 years will require long-term solutions and considerable rail investment in the north. national resolve. This Government are committed to If an additional rail route was ever required between tackling the disease in all reservoirs and by all available Manchester and Sheffield, it is unlikely that even the means. modern tunnels would be suitable for reuse and, given advances in tunnelling technology even since 2008 as TRANSPORT witnessed by Crossrail, the best solution is most likely to be the construction of a new tunnel. Ministerial Correction I am therefore announcing that the Government will not be purchasing the tunnels from National Grid in order to instigate an inspection and maintenance regime The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport and I shall be informing National Grid accordingly. (Mr Robert Goodwill): On 31 October 2013, Official Report, columns 1124-25, in the course of my statement Before reaching my decision, the Rail Minister at the to the House during the report stage of the High Speed time, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford Rail (Preparation) Bill, I quoted a figure for the annual (Mr Burns), wrote to over 40 MPs representing departmental budget for the Department for Transport. constituencies both east and west of the Pennines, and The figure quoted was actually a figure for the received three replies. He also wrote to other statutory Government’s annual capital investment budget. bodies with an interest in the tunnels and Network Rail. In total just seven replies were received by early September Woodhead Tunnels but I have given them full consideration. My decision does not rule the possibility of reopening the Woodhead route to rail traffic in the future, should The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport a new line ever be required. (Stephen Hammond): The Woodhead tunnels are located on the former Manchester to Sheffield railway line, Also large parts of the closed route are protected known as the Woodhead route, which was closed to from development and will continue to be available for passenger traffic in 1970 and to freight in 1981. The the enjoyment of cyclists, horse riders and hikers passing original single bore Victorian tunnels were replaced in through the magnificent landscape of the South Pennines. 1953 by a new tunnel when the line was electrified. In the 1960s, National Grid bought the Victorian tunnels and installed high voltage cables to transmit electricity. WORK AND PENSIONS When the line finally closed in 1981, National Grid purchased the modern tunnel with a view of installing new cables in the modern tunnel and abandoning the Child Maintenance Reform Victorian tunnels when cables needed renewing some 30 years later. In 2007, National Grid began work on this project. The Minister of State, Department for Work and This is now close to completion and a contract will Pensions (Steve Webb): On 19 July 2012, the Government shortly be let for the permanent sealing of the Victorian published “Supporting separated families; securing tunnels. children’s futures” (Cm 8399), a public consultation on In 2007-08 Ministers received many representations the draft Child Support Fees Regulations 2013 and the urging them to protect the Woodhead tunnels so that draft Child Support (Ending Liability in Existing Cases the Woodhead route could be reopened to rail traffic in and Transition to New Calculation Rules) Regulations the future. There was no case then for taking any steps 2013. The consultation ran until 26 October 2012 and to halt National Grid’s plan but Ministers did agree attracted a total of 90 responses. to consider, at the appropriate time, whether or not to On 20 May 2013, I tabled a written ministerial instigate an inspection and maintenance regime on the statement—Official Report, column 58WS—which outlined Victorian tunnels This would leave open the option to an initial response to this consultation. Later today, the 13WS Written Statements5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Statements 14WS

Government will publish their full response. The response disruption. We estimate that around 50,000 cases could will provide further detail, setting out the main points move from being nil-assessed to being positively assessed, made by respondents to each of the consultation questions, should a new application be made to the Child Maintenance together with proposed next steps. Service. Cases with an enforced method of payment in We have made a number of changes to our proposals place, or where enforcement action is ongoing, will be in order to address the concerns raised by some respondents closed last. These non-resident parents will be subject around the charging of fees and the closure of existing to a compliance test before they are allowed to choose Child Support Agency cases. the “Direct Pay” option. First, we have reduced the proposed parent with care We believe that these changes address the concerns collection fee from 7% to 4%. Secondly, we have extended raised by respondents, while preserving the Government’s the list of organisations to which domestic violence can intention to rebalance the overall child maintenance be reported in order to qualify for the application fee landscape. Our intention is to ensure that parents who waiver. We have updated our definition of domestic are able to make their own arrangements are supported violence to keep it in line with the current cross-Government to do so, while a more efficient and more sustainable definition, which includes financial abuse. statutory service is still available as a backstop for those We have also changed the proposed order in which who really do need to use it. Child Support Agency cases will close. Nil-assessed We intend to lay amended draft regulations before cases will be closed first in order to minimise payment Parliament later this year.

5P Petitions5 NOVEMBER 2013 Petitions 6P

areas receive 50% more support per head than rural Petitions areas despite higher costs in rural service delivery; and opposes the planned freezing of this inequity in the Tuesday 5 November 2013 2013–14 settlement for six years until 2020. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to reduce the Rural PRESENTED PETITIONS Penalty in staged steps by at least 10% by 2020. Petitions presented to the House but not read on the Floor, received 4 November 2013. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Jesse Norman.] [P001282] Rural Fair Share Campaign The Petition of residents of South East Cambridgeshire, Petitions presented to the House today but not read on Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Local the Floor Government Finance Settlement is unfair to rural communities; notes that the Rural Penalty sees urban Rural Fair Share Campaign areas receive 50% more support per head than rural The Petition of Howdenshire Consitituency, areas despite higher costs in rural service delivery; and Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Local opposes the planned freezing of this inequity in the Government Finance Settlement is unfair to rural 2013–14 settlement for six years until 2020. communities; notes that the Rural Penalty sees urban The Petitioners therefore request that the House of areas receive 50% more support per head than rural Commons urges the Government to reduce the Rural areas despite higher costs in rural service delivery; and Penalty in staged steps by at least 10% by 2020. opposes the planned freezing of this inequity in the And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Sir James 2013–14 settlement for six years until 2020. Paice.] The Petitioners therefore request that the House of [P001245] Commons urges the Government to reduce the Rural The Petition of residents of the North Dorset Parliamentary Penalty in staged steps by at least 10% by 2020. constituency, And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Local Mr David Davis.] Government Finance Settlement is unfair to rural [P001279] communities; notes that the Rural Penalty sees urban The Petition of residents of Congleton, areas receive 50% more support per head than rural Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Local areas despite higher costs in rural service delivery; and Government Finance Settlement is unfair to rural opposes the planned freezing of this inequity in the communities; notes that the Rural Penalty sees urban 2013–14 settlement for six years until 2020. areas receive 50% more support per head than rural The Petitioners therefore request that the House of areas despite higher costs in rural service delivery; and Commons urges the Government to reduce the Rural opposes the planned freezing of this inequity in the Penalty in staged steps by at least 10% by 2020. 2013–14 settlement for six years until 2020. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Commons urges the Government to reduce the Rural Mr Robert Walter.] Penalty in staged steps by at least 10% by 2020. [P001253] And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Fiona The Petition of residents of Saffron Walden, Bruce.] [P001281] Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Local Government Finance Settlement is unfair to rural communities; notes that the Rural Penalty sees urban areas receive 50% more support per head than rural OBSERVATIONS areas despite higher costs in rural service delivery; and opposes the planned freezing of this inequity in the 2013–14 settlement for six years until 2020. EDUCATION

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Children Placed in Foster Care Commons urges the Government to reduce the Rural Penalty in staged steps by at least 10% by 2020. The Petition of members of the Association of McKenzie Friends, And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Sir Alan Declares that the Petitioners express their grief for Haselhurst.] the thousands of British and foreign families whose [P001280] children were taken against their will; children who The Petition of residents of Hereford and South were placed in foster “care”, with private foster “parents”, Herefordshire, in foster homes or were adopted without parental consent, especially in the case of foreign nationals, parents who Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Local are falsely imprisoned and adoptions which take place Government Finance Settlement is unfair to rural in court hearings in their absence, without full knowledge communities; notes that the Rural Penalty sees urban and certainly without due process. 7P Petitions5 NOVEMBER 2013 Petitions 8P

Further declares that these serious violations of human The Children Act 1989 statutory guidance is clear rights also violate the UN Convention of the Rights of that social workers must look at the unique needs of the Child and have created incalculable damages every child in need or at risk of significant harm, and emotionally, legally, financially and economically; further take the action that is in that child’s best interests. that some 2,500 hand written signatures requesting the Return of Our Stolen Children were submitted to No. 10 In addition the statutory safeguarding guidance, on 26 July 2013, after a week-long protest opposite “Working Together to Safeguard Children”, 2013 sets Downing Street from 19 to 26 July 2013 stating; out how the assessment of children in need should happen including assessments for unborn children. Pre Dear Mr Cameron, birth assessments require particular care by social workers Take the Lead and Return our Stolen Children working with health professionals and others. The (http://mckenzie-friends.co.uk/2013/07/28/dear-mr-cameron- assessment should consider both the protective and risk take-the-lead-and-return-our-stolen-children/) factors for the child including the capacity of the parents to keep the child safe. Decisions must always be taken in The Petitioners therefore request that the House of the interests of the child. Commons work with the Government to: Order the return of children to their rightful biological parents in The purpose of an assessment is to gather important cases where children were taken because of “emotional information about a child and family; to analyse their harm”, where this has not been proven adequately; all needs and the nature and level of any harm they may be children taken because of the “risk of future emotional suffering and to provide support to address those needs harm”; all children who were taken at or shortly after to improve the outcomes for the child. In determining birth and thus denied their right to breast feeding (the the nature of the risk, social workers working with the precedent judgment by the current President of the Family child and their family and other professionals will consider Courts is persistently ignored (http://www.baili.org/ew/ what type of abuse or combination of abuse is present cases/EWHC/Admin/2003/850.html)); all foreign national and/or whether neglect is present. It is the professional children; all children whose wishes and feelings have judgement of the social worker which will determine not been heard despite their own heartbreaking letters what response will be required. or words, if they are too young. Keeping the child at the centre of decision making is Order the abolition of forced adoptions without parental key and we must ensure social workers look at the child consent; our petition asking the EU Parliament for and the family so as to make assessments which allow Abolition of Adoptions without Parental Consent was decisions to be made in the best interests of the child. lodged with the Petitions Committee on 31 May 2013 This should include considering the option of placing and it was published with different emphasis on three children with family abroad where appropriate to an different platforms. individual child’s unique circumstances. Order to lift the Secrecy of Family Courts; our online petition has now reached over 1,500 signatures The DfE is looking at revising guidance to local (http: //www.gopetition.com/petitions/the-secrecy-of-the authorities to make it clearer that where it may be in a -family-courts-should-be-lifted-now.html) and it was child’s best interests to be placed abroad the social submitted to the President of the Family Courts on workers should ask the court to consider this. 20 Jan 2013, together with comments. Our primary concern, and the primary concern of Order a review of gagging orders in the spirit of social workers, must always be the safety and wellbeing openness, transparency, fairness and common sense. of children. The Petitioners also request that the House of Commons To assist the court, a children’s guardian (who is hold a debate regarding compensation for the victims of independent of the local authority) is appointed to punishments without crime to include children stolen advise what is in the child’s best interests. Parents must by the State and consider the role of McKenzie Friends also be legally represented, and are entitled to legal aid. in Courts and Prisons. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by John When a court makes an order placing a child in the Hemming, Official Report, 3 September 2013; Vol. 567, care of a local authority, the authority should continue c. 7P.] to work with the family with a view to the child returning home. However, a stage may be reached when it is [P001217] apparent that the child cannot be returned. It is at this Observations from the Secretary of State for Education: stage that the local authority must make alternative plans to provide the child with a permanent family The law is clear that children should live with their home. parents wherever possible and families should be given extra support to help keep them together. In most cases, Adoption is one way of providing this and is appropriate support from the local authority enables any concerns for some, though not all, children. to be addressed and children can remain with their families. The final decision on whether a child should be adopted rests with the courts, before a court makes such The decision to take a child into care is never an easy an important decision it must always consider the whole one. Where a child is taken into care via a care order, the range of powers available to it in the child’s case. It must courts will have considered all the evidence and taken not make an adoption order unless it considers that the view that there is reasonable cause to believe that making the order would be better for the child than not the child is suffering from, or is likely to suffer, significant doing so. harm. 9P Petitions5 NOVEMBER 2013 Petitions 10P

The term “forced adoption” is a misleading one. The The question of how to open up the family courts law and guidance on adoption make clear that children and the Court of Protection further and balance access cannot be adopted without their parents’ consent unless with proper controls to prevent the disclosure of sensitive the court is satisfied that the welfare of the child requires information which might be harmful to parties in the their consent to be dispensed with. proceedings if released (including vulnerable children This might be because the court is satisfied that the and adults) remains a difficult and controversial issue, parents cannot be found; because they are incapable of which requires careful and serious consideration. giving their consent or, because it has reason to believe The President of the Family Division is currently the welfare of the child requires their consent to be considering how progress can be made by changes to dispensed with. The paramount consideration of the Rules of Court, practice directions and guidance to court when making any decision is the child’s welfare further the public understanding of family proceedings, throughout his or her life. whilst respecting the right to privacy of vulnerable In deciding whether the parents’ consent should be individuals and children in particular. The President dispensed with the court has to determine whether the recently published draft guidance on publication of benefits to the child outweigh the parents’ views and judgments which will begin the important public debate rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. we need to have about transparency in these courts. The Government commissioned a small scale research In regards to a review of gagging orders it must be project to consider the robustness of adoption procedures remembered that restrictions on providing details of and the quality of local authority practice in 12 cases court hearings are needed in certain cases when there where adoption decisions were actively contested or may be good reasons based on the individual facts of a opposed by birth parents. The study focused on the case e.g. protection of privacy, to protect children or to robustness of procedures. The project report was published prevent vexatious allegations against a sound witness. on 6 March 2013 and the findings and recommendations confirmed routine compliance with the required procedural However, parties can pass on information about and legal framework for adoption. Parents’ rights to proceedings to regulators and their MP in order to due process in contesting and opposing care, placement investigate a complaint without this being a potential and adoption order applications were ensured. It would contempt of court. therefore not be reasonable to expect the House of Commons to hold a debate on compensation for the If individuals have concerns about experts or other victims of punishments without crime to include children professionals, they can ask the appropriate regulator to “stolen by the state”. investigate. The rules of court enable a party to communicate information relating to proceedings to a The Government agree that there is a need for greater regulator where it is necessary to enable that party to openness in the family courts. Court rules were amended make and pursue a complaint against a person who was in 2009 which allow the media to attend family proceedings concerned in the proceedings. Sanctions—such as removal heard in private in all tiers of the family courts. from the register—can be applied if allegations are Court of Protection Rules also allow applications to found to have substance. be made to the judge to attend hearings. The courts must carefully balance the rights to freedom of speech Therefore we do not feel a review is required at this against the family’s, and particularly the child’s, rights time. to privacy when considering whether to permit reporting Mr Hemmings’ support for the use of a McKenzie of such cases. Friend, to help parties put across their case, is welcomed, It should not be forgotten that, although the courts both McKenzie Friends and observers are of course are often making life changing decisions for families already a feature of the family courts. An accused and children, the cases involve very sensitive information prisoner may also already request legal representation about them. or a McKenzie friend at a hearing.

107W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 108W Written Answers to EU Justice and Home Affairs Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he Questions has made of the possible financial implications of opting out of each of the police and criminal justice Tuesday 5 November 2013 measures in the third pillar of the EU treaties; and if he will make a statement. [173631] FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Mr Lidington: On 9 July the Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member Burma for Maidenhead (Mrs May), announced to Parliament Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign that the Government intended to exercise the UK’s and Commonwealth Affairs what support his opt-out under the Lisbon treaty and seek to rejoin a Department has given to the Burmese Army since July package of 35 police and criminal justice measures which are in the UK’s national interest. Following 2013. [173514] debates and votes in both Houses of Parliament the Mr Swire: The British Government has not provided Prime Minister wrote to the President of the Council of any support to the Burmese Army since July 2013. Ministers on 24 July to provide formal notification that In January 2014, a civil-military team from the Defence the Government has decided to exercise its right, provided Academy of the United Kingdom in collaboration with for by article 10(4) of protocol 36 to the treaties, to opt Cranfield university will deliver a Managing Defence in out of all pre-Lisbon police and criminal justice measures. a Wider Security Context course in Burma to 30 students, The Secretary of State has committed to providing drawn from Burma’s Government and the Burmese Parliament with an impact assessment on the final list military. This course will develop the professionalism of of measures that the UK will apply to rejoin. This will the Burmese armed forces within a democratic framework be done in good time ahead of the second vote on this by raising awareness of effective governance and matter and contain all relevant information. management in support of the policies of a civilian EU Law government. The programme will also include an examination of the legal framework by which defence Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for and security operations are legitimised and controlled Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if she will publish in line with international human rights and humanitarian her Department’s cost-benefit analysis of opting back law. The course will not contain any combat or combat in to Council Decision 2010/348/EC of 17 November related elements. 2008; and if she will make a statement. [173653] China Mr Lidington: Council Decision 2010/348/EC of Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for 17 November 2008 is a measure subject to the UK’s Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions 2014 JHA Opt-out decision. This measure is not included he has had with his Chinese counterparts on forced in the set of 35 measures that the Government has announced that it will seek to rejoin. As stated in organ harvesting in that country. [173674] Command Paper 8671, the Government does not consider Mr Swire: I refer the right hon. Member to my that there are any financial implications associated with previous answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Council Decision 2010/348/EC of 17 November 2008. East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), dated 22 April 2013, The my the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Official Report, column 633W. my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead Egypt (Mrs May), has committed to providing Parliament with an impact assessment on the final list of measures Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign that the UK will apply to rejoin. This will be done in and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he good time ahead of the second vote on this matter and has made of the treatment of minority religious groups contain all relevant information. in Egypt. [173438] Iran Hugh Robertson: We are deeply concerned at the Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign treatment of minority religious groups in Egypt. On and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has 20 October four Coptic Christians were killed, and received on the treatment of religious and other many injured at a Coptic Christian wedding in Cairo. minorities in Iran. [173711] This was the latest incident in a trend of violence against religious minorities across Egypt. On 21 October Hugh Robertson: Officials at the Foreign and our ambassador to Egypt wrote to the Coptic Pope to Commonwealth Office have a regular dialogue with offer his condolences and a senior Foreign and those following the human rights situation in Iran— Commonwealth Office official contacted the head of including the treatment of religious and other minorities. the Coptic Church in the UK to express our sympathy. Iran’s treatment of these groups—in particular of the The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Bahai and Christian communities—continues to be a Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond serious source of concern. On 23 October during the (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has publicly condemned all acts of UN General Assembly the UK spoke publicly in support violence. We recently encouraged the committee tasked of the report by the UN Special Rapporteur on the with drafting Egypt’s new constitution to ensure stronger Human Rights Situation in Iran, which documented protection under the rule of law for all citizens. the persecution of minority groups in Iran. 109W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 110W

Maldives as murder, attempted murder and offences contrary to the Explosive Substance Act 1883 ’and Firearms (Northern Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Ireland) Order 2004. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions Number of persons charged with an offence under Terrorism Legislation he has had with his Maldives counterpart on human Total rights issues and the persecution of Christians. [173678] 2007 16 Mr Swire: We continue to hold serious concerns 2008 6 about human rights issues in Maldives, including on 2009-10 8 freedom of religion, freedom of expression, rule of law, 2010-11 19 children’s rights and women’s rights. We are also aware 2011-12 19 of allegations of police brutality and arrests which 2012-13 52 appear to be politically motivated. We continue to raise our concerns with the Ministry Number of persons convicted of an offence under Terrorism Legislation of Foreign Affairs and Ministry of Islamic Affairs on Magistrates human rights and on religious freedom. We have supported Crown court court Total religious freedom in Maldives through funding projects 2007 6 1 7 to promote moderate Islam. For example, we have 2008 8 1 9 previously organised a visit of young British Muslims 2009 2 1 3 to share liberal Islamic views with Maldivian youth. 2009-10 4 1 5 We will continue to engage with the Government of 2010-11 2 1 3 Maldives about human rights concerns, including religious 2011-12 3 4 7 freedom in order to ensure that Maldives fulfils its 2012-13 7 3 10 international obligations on human rights. April to 617 October 2013

ATTORNEY-GENERAL EU Institutions TRANSPORT

Mr Thomas: To ask the Attorney-General how many Air Traffic Control: Lasers visits Ministers from the Law Officers’ Departments made to either the European Commission or the Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for European Parliament in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and Transport how many incidents of laser pen attacks on (c) 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [173755] air traffic control towers were recorded in the last five years. [173894] The Solicitor-General: No visits have been made by Ministers from the Law Officers’ Departments to either Mr Goodwill: The Civil Aviation Authority has received the European Commission or the European Parliament 28 reports of laser pen attacks on Air Traffic Control during this time. towers, through the Mandatory Occurrence Reporting Redundancy (MOR) scheme between 1 January 2008 and mid September 2013. Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Attorney-General how many staff in the Law Officers’ Departments were High Speed 2 Railway Line made redundant in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and how many such staff received payments John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for in lieu of notice. [170361] Transport what assessment he has made of the effect of High Speed 2 on passenger numbers on (a) the The Solicitor-General: In 2010-11 there were two Barrow-in-Furness to Lancaster line, (b) the individuals in the Crown Prosecution Service who were Oxenholme to Windermere line and (c) the Barrow-in- made compulsorily redundant and received payments Furness to Carlisle line. [173925] in lieu of notice. There were no compulsory redundancies in 2011-12 or in 2012-13. Mr Goodwill: The modelling framework used by HS2 There were no compulsory redundancies in the remaining Ltd is a strategic level model and takes into account the Law Officers’ Departments during the years in question. impact of HS2 on passenger numbers across the country. Terrorism: Northern Ireland While long distance passenger demand on the Barrow- in-Furness to Lancaster line, the Oxenholme to Windermere Mr Dodds: To ask the Attorney-General how many line and the Barrow-in-Furness to Carlisle line is included people in Northern Ireland have been (a) charged and as part of the recent assessment of HS2, it is not (b) convicted under anti-terrorism legislation in each possible for me to provide detailed passenger forecasts year since 2007. [173436] for these lines individually. The Attorney-General: The figures given in the tables John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for refer to offences contained within the Terrorism Act (2000), Transport what assessment he has made of the effect of Terrorism Act (2006) and Counter Terrorism Act (2008). High Speed 2 (a) phase 1 and (b) phase 2 on jobs, Many offences of terrorism are prosecuted for offences employment and growth in Barrow and Furness that are not contained in anti-terrorist legislation, such constituency. [173932] 111W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 112W

Mr Goodwill: The Government has made no assessment station is the best way to meet local transport needs and of the effect of HS2 phase 1 and 2 on jobs, employment to identify any funding required from locally allocated and growth in Barrow and Furness constituency. However, budgets. I have no plans to visit the area but would be HS2 Ltd has recently published an initial study from delighted to do so should the county councils decide to KPMG analysing the regional economic impacts of proceed with the scheme. HS2. This includes an estimate that the annual productivity benefits to the north-west region could be between Railways: Finance £1.1 billion and £2.5 billion in 2037 (in 2013 prices), which would represent an increase in output (measured Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for in terms of Gross Value Added) of between 0.6% Transport if he will make it his policy that spending on and 1.4%. jobs and maintenance should be ring fenced and excluded from the National Rail budgetary reductions Motor Vehicles: Registration announced by the Office of Rail Regulation. [174186]

Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Hammond: No. Network Rail’s funding Transport with reference to the contribution of the requirement is a matter for the independent economic Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport and safety regulator, the Office of Rail Regulation of 31 January 2013, Official Report, column 1153, on (ORR). ORR assumes an efficient level of expenditure vehicle registration marks, what recent progress he has for each of Network Rail’s regulated activities to deliver made on the drafting of a revised British standard for the outputs required by the Government and to maintain and improve the safety and reliability of the railway. It vehicle registration. [173571] is then for Network Rail to decide how it manages its Mr Goodwill: The Department for Transport understands business within the overall framework specified by ORR that a final draft of the revised British standard for and to determine the staff it needs to carry out its work number plates is close to public consultation which will effectively. ORR holds Network Rail to account and be placed upon the website of the British Standards can take enforcement action if the company fails to Institute (BSI). This has been indicated as being in early deliver its regulated outputs. 2014. Following an eight-week consultation, the BSI Railways: North West will consider comments received and incorporate them into a final version of the standard. The Department John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for will then prepare a statutory instrument to update the Transport what cost-benefit analysis his Department relevant regulation on number plates. has made of (a) electrification and (b) line-speed Pedestrian Crossings improvements on the Lancaster to Barrow-in-Furness railway. [173924] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Hammond: The Department has made no Transport (1) whether Local Transport Note 2/95 such analysis. Following the Government’s major investment continues to apply in Wales and Scotland; [173866] in rail electrification as part of the Rail Investment (2) whether the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Strategy (RIS) for 2014-19, Network Rail is working Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997 with train operators and other stakeholders to identify remain in force in Wales and Scotland. [173867] the best candidate schemes for future investment, as part of its Long Term Planning Process in advance of Mr Goodwill: The Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian decisions on the following five year Network Rail Control Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997 Period. That review includes consideration of the Carnforth apply in England, Scotland and Wales, and remain in to Barrow-in-Furness line. force. The Government has provided a £300 million fund Local Transport Note 2/95 on the Design of Pedestrian within the 2014-19 RIS for passenger journey improvements. Crossings is guidance, and compliance with it is not It is for Network Rail and the train operators to undertake mandatory. In Scotland and Wales, as in England, the detailed analysis of which routes have the best case for design and installation of pedestrian crossings is for investment. local authorities, and although we recommend the advice in LTN 2/95 as good practice it is for local authorities to choose how best to implement crossings on their roads. HOME DEPARTMENT Railway Stations: Gilsland Counter-terrorism

Guy Opperman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for the Transport what plans he has to build a new railway Home Department what assessment she has made of station in Gilsland, on the border of Cumbria and the work of the Prevent task force; and if she will make Northumberland; and when the Parliamentary Under- a statement. [173544] Secretary of State with responsibility for railways plans to visit that project. [173529] James Brokenshire [holding answer 1 November 2013]: The Extremism Task Force (ETF), established in early Stephen Hammond: The Department for Transport June, has been an opportunity for Ministers to look has no plans to build a station at Gilsland. It would be together at how we should confront all forms of extremism for Cumbria and Northumberland county councils to and radicalisation in this country. It builds on the work with the rail industry to determine whether a new Prevent Strategy which we published in 2011. 113W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 114W

In implementing the Prevent Strategy, we have closed Mr Harper [holding answer 14 October 2013]: We down more websites, excluded more hate preachers for currently split our customer service standards into two reasons linked to Prevent, and intervened to help many categories, ’settlement’ and ’non-settlement’. more people vulnerable to radicalisation. But we can, The ’settlement’ category includes applications: and should do more, and the task force provides the to enter the UK to join or accompany a spouse or civil partner vehicle. from children to enter the UK to join or accompany a parent In our meetings, we have looked at: tackling radicalisation that is settled in the UK in institutions (mosques, madrassahs, schools, colleges, The ’non-settlement category includes applications universities and prisons); supporting faith and community to enter the UK: leadership to build strong, integrated and united ″ communities; options for disrupting extremists; and as a visitor (including as a tourist, to visit family, to conduct business, as a short-term student) how best to tackle online radicalisation. as a highly skilled migrant under PBS Tier 1 We will update on further progress in due course. a skilled worker under PBS Tier 2 Entry Clearances a student under PBS Tier 4 a temporary worker under PBS Tier 5 (including YouthMobility) Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the in all other non-settlement categories (including EEA Family Home Department how many visa applications have Permits, UK Ancestry, Returning Residents, Transit) been processed in (a) under three months, (b) under The number of visa applications that have been processed six months, (c) under a year, (d) under 18 months and in under three months, under six months, under a year (e) over 18 months in each of the last five years. and under 18 months and over 18 months in each of the [170560] last five years are detailed as follows:

Non-settlement applications Percentage Percentage Percentage Percentage Within 3 Within 6 Within 12 Within 18 within 3 within 6 within 12 within 18 Applications months months months months months months months months

2008 2,305,878 2,295,677 2,302,170 2,305,875 2,305,878 99.56 99.84 99.99 100 2009 2,366,077 2,343,926 2,362,210 2,365,575 2,366,047 99.06 99.84 99.98 99.98 2010 2,461,558 2,425,917 2,450,156 2,460,364 2,460,991 98.55 99.54 99.95 99.98 2011 2,542,204 2,526,240 2,538,685 2,541,684 2,541,917 99.37 99.86 99.98 99.99 2012 2,494,788 2,490,957 2,493,718 2,494,434 2,494,544 99.85 99:96 99.99 99.99

Settlement Applications Percentage percentage Percentage Percentage Within 3 Within 6 Within 12 Within 18 within 3 within 6 within 12 within 18 Applications months months months months months months months months

2008 73,283 69,590 72,925 73,283 73,283 94.96 99.51 100 100 2009 74,188 66,323 73,169 74,064 74,183 89.40 98.63 99.83 99.99 2010 77,480 67,127 74,461 77,053 77,354 86.64 96.10 99.45 99.84 2011 63,455 57,736 61,972 63,286 63,392 90.99 97.66 99.73 99.90 2012 64,726 48,663 63,607 64,615 64,666 75.18 98.27 99.83 99.91

The stats above relate to main applicants and dependants Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State and are for UK destination only. Within three months is for the Home Department what family visit visa calculated as 60 working days, six months as 120 working applications to the UK there were in (a) 2008, (b) days, 12 months as 240 working days and 18 months as 2009, (c) 2010, (d) 2011 and (e) 2012 by (i) overall 360 working days. number of decisions made, (ii) number of family visit visa grants, (iii) number of family visit visa refusals, (iv) We have service standards for processing UK visa number of family visit visa applications withdrawn and applications. Our current standards were introduced in (v) number of family visit visa applications which April 2010. They are to process: lapsed. [173515] 90% of non-settlement applications within three weeks, 98% within six weeks and 100% within 12 weeks of the application Mr Harper: The following table shows the statistics date for family visit visa applications from 2008 to 2012. The 95% of settlement applications within 12 weeks of the application numbers relate to main applicants and dependants. The date and 100% within 24 weeks of the application date. figures are not cohort based.

2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Applications received 414,486 426,490 422,709 444,088 367,531 Applications decided 407,935 425,823 428,042 445,700 374,782 Applications issued 313,203 332,487 349,988 370,536 302,343 Applications refused 92,561 91,083 76,697. 73,642 70,862 115W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 116W

2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Applications withdrawn 1,430 1,517 914 1,132 1,158 Applications lapsed 741 736 443 390 419

Extradition Members: Surveillance

Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Home Department whether the Government plans Home Department whether the Wilson Doctrine on to retain unchanged existing provisions of the UK-US the interception of the telephone calls and electronic extradition agreement required by the EU-US messages of hon. Members still applies; and whether extradition agreement if the UK ceases to be bound by the security agencies restrict co-operation with their that latter agreement, pursuant to Article 10 of the American counterparts to prevent them applying such Protocol on Transitional Provisions annexed to the EU electronic surveillance to hon. Members and Members treaties; and what assessment she has made of whether of the House of Lords. [173474] the US will agree to such retention or planned or changes to those provisions proposed by the James Brokenshire: [holding answer 1 November 2013]: Government in circumstances where such agreement is I can confirm that the Wilson Doctrine continues to required. [173250] apply. I refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by my noble Friend, the right hon. Lord Wallace of Saltaire to James Brokenshire: As the UK has opted out of the the noble Lord Strasburger on 3 July 2013, Official EU-US Agreement, it is important to note that on Report, column WA238. I am obviously not able to 1 December 2014, the UK will be able to agree the comment on the activities of foreign governments. terms of our extradition arrangements bilaterally with Regarding GCHQ’s alleged interception of communications the US. In the meantime, the Government will retain under the US PRISM programme, the Intelligence and unchanged existing UK law and practice. Security Committee of Parliament has concluded that GCHQ has not circumvented UK law or attempted to Health Services: Foreign Nationals do so.

Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for the Narendra Modi Home Department what discussions he has held with the Northern Ireland Executive on the levy issued on Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for the foreign students and temporary migrants to use the Home Department whether she plans to reinstate the NHS. [173430] ban prohibiting Gujarat’s Chief Minister, Narendra Modi, entering the UK. [173442] Mr Harper: Ministers regularly discuss matters of mutual interest with Ministers in the devolved Mr Harper: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Administrations. A meeting of the Joint Ministerial given on 15 October 2013, Official Report, column Committee was chaired by the Prime Minister on 16 649W. October, attended by the First Minister and deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, the First Minister National Crime Agency of Wales, and the First Minister of Scotland. The three principal agenda items at the meeting re the economy and public finances, the UK Government’s proposals Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the on migrants’ access to public services and major sporting Home Department (1) if she will take steps to ensure events. that the National Crime Agency makes tackling online child abuse images an operational priority; [173291] The joint communiqué issued following the meeting may be found at: (2) how decisions about the National Crime https://www.gov.uk/government/news/joint-ministerial- Agency’s operational priorities will be made; and how committee-communique-october-2013 such decisions will be communicated to the public; These proposals have been the subject of a Home [173292] Office public consultation. The Consultation Document (3) what the budgets for each of the National Crime and Consultation Report may be found at: Agency’s operational priorities are; and if she will www.gov.uk/government/consultations/migrant-access-to- make a statement. [173293] health-services-in-the-uk Damian Green [holding answer 31 October 2013]: Immigrants: Detainees The National Crime Agency (NCA) is accountable to the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State has a legal Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the duty under the Crime and Courts Act 2013 (“the Act”) Home Department how many individuals are currently to determine the ‘strategic priorities’ for the National held in prisons solely for immigration purposes. Crime Agency, in consultation with the Director General [169599] of the NCA and with the NCA’s strategic partners (as set out in the Act). The Director General of the NCA Mr Harper [holding answer 8 October 2013]: For the determines the operational priorities for the agency. week commencing 9 September 2013, there were 979 These are determined in consultation with the NCA’s immigration detainees held in prisons. strategic partners. Both the strategic and operational 117W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 118W priorities for the NCA are published in the NCA Annual UK Visas and Immigration Plan, which is available on the NCA website: http://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/news-media/ Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the publications/33-nca-annual-plan-2013-14/file Home Department if she will arrange for the hon. The NCA’s budget is not managed by operational Member for Walsall North to receive a reply to her priority. The NCA manages a large work force of around letter to the Interim Director General, UK Visas and 4,000 officers, and must allocate its budget flexibly to Immigration of 30 September 2013 on behalf of a meet priorities as and when they arise. constituent: CTS ref B26222/13. [173733] The first and highest strategic priority for the NCA Mr Harper [holding answer 4 November 2013]: The set by the Secretary of State is the identification and Director General, Sarah Rapson, replied to the hon. disruption of serious and organised crime, including by Member on 31 October 2013. investigating and enabling the prosecution of those responsible for child sexual exploitation. NCA officers Verne Prison have a legal duty under the Crime and Courts Act to safeguard children and protect their welfare, and all Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the NCA officers will be trained in child protection. Home Department how much the conversion of HM Prison The Verne into an immigration removal centre Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the will cost. [170066] Home Department what assessment she has made of the resources (a) required by and (b) allocated to the Mr Harper [holding answer 10 October 2013]: The National Crime Agency to combat online child abuse conversion of HM Prison The Verne into an Immigration images. [173295] Removal Centre is forecast to cost around £7 million.

Damian Green [holding answer 31 October 2013]: The National Crime Agency’s (NCA’s) total spending in 2013/14 is £463 million Resource and £31 million NORTHERN IRELAND Capital. Of the £463 million, £422 million is provided directly from the Home Office and the rest comprises Civil Disorder funding for specific work (for example on cyber crime and overseas capacity building). Within this, the Child Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Exploitation and Online Protection (CEOP) budget has Northern Ireland how many attacks there were on (a) been protected in cash terms since 2011-12. community halls, (b) Orange halls and (c) churches in It is for the NCA itself to decide how best to allocate Northern Ireland in each year since 2010. [173439] its budget to ensure it is able to tackle the various forms of serious and organised crime for which it is responsible, Mrs Villiers: The Northern Ireland Office does not including combating child sexual exploitation. routinely record attacks of this nature. However figures Within the NCA, the main responsibility for tackling available from PSNI on attacks on symbolic premises online child abuse images lies within the CEOP Command. for the years in question (up to 30 June 2013) are By becoming part of the NCA, CEOP will have increased provided in the following table: capacity to deal with complex cases, drawing on the 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 intelligence and operational capabilities across the whole to date of the NCA. CEOP’s frontline operational services will 1 April 1 April 1 April April also have more resilience as a result. All NCA officers 2010 to 2011 to 2012 to 2013 to will be trained in child protection and will have a legal Type of symbolic 31 March 31 March 31 March 30 June duty to safeguard children and protect their welfare premises 2011 2012 2013 2013 across the whole of the agency’s activity. Church or Chapel 23 12 14 1— GAA or Ancient Order 881— 1— Overseas Students: China of Hibernians Hall Orange or Apprentice 58 32 27 5 Boys Hall Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for the School 1—41— 1— Home Department whether it is her policy that 1 In order to protect confidentiality exact figures are not given where the numbers are sufficiently low that individuals/organisations could be easily students from China are charged £200 to access the identified. NHS. [171280] Source: PSNI Statistics Branch Mr Harper [holding answer 21 October 2013]: On Further information relating to attacks on symbolic 10 October, the Government published an Immigration buildings can be found on the PSNI website at: Bill, which makes provision for temporary migrants to http://www.psni.police.uk/hate_motivated_incidents_ pay a Migrant Health Surcharge. and_crimes_in_northern_ireland_2004-05_to_2012-13.pdf On 22 October, the Government published its response to the consultation ’Controlling Immigration; Regulating Northern Ireland Act 1998 Migrant Access to Health Services in the UK’. This set out who would have to pay the surcharge and the level Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for of the surcharge for different groups. The Government Northern Ireland what recent assessment she has made expects to set the surcharge for students at around of the operation of section 75 of the Northern Ireland £150 per person, per year. Act 1998. [173455] 119W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 120W

Mrs Villiers: The operation of section 75 of the universities, (f) educated at all other universities, (g) Northern Ireland Act 1998 is primarily a matter for the solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel in Equality Commission, and for the Northern Ireland each year since 2003; [172833] Executive, which sponsors it. (4) what proportion of deputy masters, deputy registrars, deputy cost judges and deputy district judges Terrorism were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and (d) Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for minority ethnic, educated at the University of (e) Northern Ireland what recent assessment she has of the Oxford or University of Cambridge, educated at (f) threat posed by paramilitary organisations in Northern other Russell Group universities, educated at all other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Ireland. [173437] Queen’s counsel in each year since 2003; [172834] Mrs Villiers: The threat level in Northern Ireland (5) what proportion of masters, registrars, costs remains at Severe. There are still a small number of judges and district judges working in the Principal terrorist groupings who continue to seek to carry out Registry of the Family Division were (a) male, (b) violent attacks in Northern Ireland. Excellent co-operation female, (c) black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) between PSNI and its partners, including An Garda educated at the University of Oxford or University of Síochána, has put these individuals under strain, resulting Cambridge, (e) educated at other Russell Group in significant arrests and charges. universities, (f) educated at all other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s counsel in Tourism each year since 2003. [172835]

Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vara: A more diverse judiciary is important in Northern Ireland what discussions she has had the retaining the public’s confidence and trust in justice, Northern Ireland Executive on increasing out of state and better reflecting the society it serves. This Government visitors to Belfast. [173440] has made a number of changes through the Crime and Courts Act 2013 that we believe will promote judicial Mrs Villiers: I meet regularly with the Northern diversity. We have introduced part time working in the Ireland Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Investment senior courts, including the Supreme Court, we have who also has responsibility for promoting tourism. enabled the equal merit provision for judicial appointments Estimates for the first quarter of 2013 (January to to allow protected characteristics to be taken into account March) indicate that the total number of overnight where two applicants are of equal merit, and a statutory trips to Northern Ireland increased by 17%, while duty for the Lord Chancellor and Lord Chief Justice to expenditure during these overnight trips grew by encourage judicial diversity. 14% compared to the same period in the previous year. The data on the gender, ethnicity and professional Many of these visitors would have spent at least part of background of the Judiciary are held and published by their visit in Belfast. the Judicial Office. Despite the negative imagery of the city presented by Information on previous professional background those who instigated disgraceful violence during the was not published before 2007. summer months, I am certain that successful events such as the G8 Summit and the World Police and Fire Separate information on judges working in the Principal Games will enhance Belfast’s reputation as an attractive Registry of the Family Division has only been published destination for tourists. since 2008. Information on the education or Queen’s Council status of the Judiciary is not published by the Judicial Office. JUSTICE This data is available at: Judges 2013 data Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Stats/ (1) what proportion of district judges at a County courts-diversity-stats-2012-13.xls court level were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian 2012 data and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Stats/ Oxford or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at courts-diversity-stats-sept2012.xls other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all 2011 data other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Stats/ Queen’s Counsel in each year since 2003; [172831] judicial-diversity-stats-gender-ethnicity-profession-2011.xls (2) what proportion of recorders were (a) male, (b) 2010 data female, (c) black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ educated at the University of Oxford or University of statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/annual-ethnicity- Cambridge, (e) educated at other Russell Group statistics/stats-annual-diversity-statistics-2010 universities, (f) educated at all other universities, (g) http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel in statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/gender-statistics/ each year since 2003; [172832] gender-statistics-judges-in-post-2010 (3) what proportion of circuit judges were (a) male, 2009 (b) female, (c) black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ educated at the University of Oxford or University of statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/annual-ethnicity- Cambridge, (e) educated at other Russell Group statistics/annual-ethnicity-statistics-2009 121W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 122W

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ Headcount of staff from each public sector custodial establishment in England statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/gender-statistics/ and Wales working on detached duty at another public sector custodial gender-statistics-judges-in-post-2009 establishment in England and Wales, as at 30 June 2013 Establishment Headcount of staff 2008 http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ Deerbolt 6 statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/annual-ethnicity- Dorchester 6 statistics/annual-ethnicity-statistics-2008 Downview 4 http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ Drake Hall 6 statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/gender-statistics/ Durham 3 gender-statistics-judges-in-post-2008 Eastwood Park 2 2007 Edmunds Hill 2 http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ Elmley 4 statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/annual-ethnicity- Erlestoke 2 statistics/annual-ethnicity-statistics-2007 Everthorpe 4 http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ Exeter 2 statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/gender-statistics/ Featherstone 3 gender-statistics-judges-in-post-2007 Feltham 6 2006 Ford 1 http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ Foston Hall 3 statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/annual-ethnicity- Frankland 5 statistics/annual-ethnicity-statistics-2006 Full Sutton 1 2005 Garth 2 Gartree 3 http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ Glen Parva 2 statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/annual-ethnicity- statistics/annual-ethnicity-statisiics-2005 Gloucester 3 Grendon 3 2004 Guys Marsh 2 http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ Haslar 1 statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/annual-ethnicity- Haverigg 1 statistics/annual-ethnicity-statistics-2004 Hewell 4 2003 High Down 5 http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ Highpoint 1 statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/annual-ethnicity- Hindley 8 statistics/annual-ethnicity-statistics-2003 Hollesley Bay 1 Prison Service Holloway 2 Holme House 4 Huntercombe 2 Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Isis 14 Justice how many staff from each prison establishment Isle of Wight 3 in England and Wales were working on detached duty Kennet 4 at another prison establishment on the most recent day Kingston 2 for which records are available; and if he will make a Kirklevington Grange 2 statement. [173399] Lancaster Farms 1 Leeds 3 Jeremy Wright: Information on how many staff in Leicester 2 each public sector custodial establishment in England Lewes 3 and Wales were working on detached duty at other such Lincoln 4 establishments on 30 June 2013 is contained in the Lindholme 4 following table: Littlehey 3 Headcount of staff from each public sector custodial establishment in England Liverpool 4 and Wales working on detached duty at another public sector custodial Long Lartin 2 establishment in England and Wales, as at 30 June 2013 Low Newton 4 Establishment Headcount of staff Maidstone 2 Aylesbury 4 Manchester 7 Bedford 3 Moorland 1 Blantyre House 3 Morton Hall 6 Brinsford 5 New Hall 2 Bristol 2 North Sea Camp 1 Brixton 3 Northallerton 2 Buckley Hall 2 Northumberland 3 Bullingdon 4 Norwich 2 Bure 3 Nottingham 9 Canterbury 1 Onley 4 Cardiff 1 Pentonville 3 Channings Wood 3 Preston 5 Chelmsford 1 Ranby 7 Coldingley 3 Reading 1 123W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 124W

Headcount of staff from each public sector custodial establishment in England Rape: Sentencing and Wales working on detached duty at another public sector custodial establishment in England and Wales, as at 30 June 2013 Establishment Headcount of staff Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice pursuant to the answer of the Minister for Risley 5 Crime Prevention of 31 October 2013, Official Report, Rochester 2 on sexual violence prosecutions, what proportion of Send 1 convicted rapists sentenced to terms of imprisonment Sheppey Clustered Services 3 served their sentence in prison in full in the latest Stafford 3 period for which figures are available. [173919] Stocken 9 Stoke Heath 7 Jeremy Wright: All custodial sentences are served as Styal 6 set out in the relevant legislation. Parliament has consistently Sudbury 4 determined that custodial sentences should be served Swaleside 4 part in prison and part in the community and all Swansea 1 custodial sentences are served to the full extent required Swinfen Hall 3 under the legislation. The Mount 1 People who commit serious crimes are now more The Verne 2 likely to be convicted and sent to prison for longer than Thorn Cross 1 they were a decade ago. This Government has also Usk/Prescoed 1 introduced a tough new regime for dangerous sexual Wakefield 6 and violent offenders, including rapists. This regime will Wandsworth 8 see more serious offenders given life sentences, and Warren Hill 1 others receiving a new extended determinate sentence Wayland 2 under which offenders will serve at least two-thirds of Wealstun 5 their custodial term and some serving the full custodial Werrington 4 term—and being supervised for long periods after their Wetherby 10 release. Whatton 3 Additionally, we have recently announced proposals Whitemoor 3 under which criminals convicted of rape of a child, or Winchester 1 serious terrorism offences, will no longer be automatically Woodhill 7 released at the half-way point of a standard determinate Wormwood Scrubs 7 prison sentence. Under these proposals, these offenders Wymott 7 will only be released before the end of their custodial term under strict conditions at the discretion of the Total 369 independent Parole Board. Before the Parole Board releases any criminal they must be convinced they no Prisoners: Hearing Impairment longer pose a threat to society. Translation Services Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what recent estimate he has made of the number Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of deaf prisoners in England and Wales. [172198] how much his Department spent on interpreters and Jeremy Wright: Statistically robust information is not translation services in each month in (a) 2009, (b) held centrally on prisoner’s declared disabilities. In 2010, (c) 2011 and (d) 2012. [173272] November 2010, the Ministry of Justice published the results of a survey of prisoners sentenced to between Mr Vara: Information on spending on interpreters one month and four years in 2005 and 2006 (Surveying and translation was not collected centrally until the Prisoner Crime Reduction - SPCR). The survey found start of a contract with Capita Translation and Interpreting that 5% reported some difficulty in hearing. (Ministry (Capita TI) on 30 January 2012. Before that time the of Justice 2010, ‘Compendium of reoffending statistics Ministry of Justice’s estimated spending on interpreters and analysis’, November 2010). and translation was in the region of £30 million per year (including Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunal Service Property Tribunal Panel and Her Majesty’s Prison Service). Monthly breakdowns are not available prior to February 2012. Sir Peter Bottomley: To ask the Secretary of State for Spending with Capita TI for each month of 2012 is Justice if he will publish the report shown to Benjamin included in the following table. The amount spent with Mire before his resignation from the Property Tribunal Capita TI increased during 2012 as more bookings were Panel; and if he will make a statement. [172993] assigned to them. Mr Vara: Mr Mire’s resignation follows an investigation Over the first year of the contract with Capita Translation into his conduct under the Judicial Discipline (Prescribed and Interpretation (starting January 2012) the Department Procedures) Regulations 2006 (as amended). All information has saved over £16 million pounds in the provision of gathered in the course of a judicial conduct investigation interpretation and translation services. is confidential and may be disclosed only in certain circumstances as set out in section 139 of the Constitutional Month in 2012 Spend (£) Reform Act 2005. Any report prepared in accordance February 110,419.53 with the regulations is governed by this section of the March 439,935.19 Act and cannot therefore be published. 125W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 126W

National Security Month in 2012 Spend (£)

April 642,027.36 Nicholas Soames: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet May 693,325.92 Office (1) what preparatory work is being undertaken June 798,555.15 in anticipation of the next National Security Strategy; July 1,116,034.18 and if he will make a statement; [173512] August 1,003,596.92 (2) what the budget for the National Security September 944,674.26 Strategy is for (a) 2013-14, (b) 2014-15 and (c) October and November 1,851,512.76 2015-16. [173513] December 913,748.54 Total 8,513,829.77 Mr Maude: Departments across Whitehall are doing early preparatory work for the 2015 National Security Young Offenders: Rehabilitation Strategy. The Government wants to undertake, in advance, as much analysis as practicable. This includes defining how the future strategic context has changed since Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2010. The review will begin in earnest next year and be (1) what steps he is taking to improve resettlement conducted formally after the general election in 2015. outcomes for young people leaving custody; [173921] In the meantime, the Government’s priority remains (2) what steps his Department is taking to assist implementing the decisions made in 2010. young offenders into employment on release from Resources for the national security strategy are drawn custody. [174098] from existing departmental budgets. Jeremy Wright: We believe that successful resettlement Public Sector Debt is key to ensuring long-term sustainable outcomes for young people leaving custody.We are currently considering Austin Mitchell: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet a number of options to improve resettlement outcomes Office what national debt as a percentage of gross for young people leaving custody, including ensuring domestic product has been in each year between 1993 that resources already in place within youth offending and 2013. [173704] teams, local authorities and wider partners are being used effectively. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Earlier this year we consulted on our vision to place responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have education at the heart of youth custody. This will help asked the authority to reply. equip young offenders with the necessary skills, Letter from Glen Watson, dated November 2013: qualifications and self-discipline that they need to access As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I education, training and employment opportunities upon have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking release. We know that this is an important element in the Minister for the Cabinet Office what national debt as a effective resettlement percentage of gross domestic product has been between the time period 1993 and 2013. (173704) We will shortly be announcing our response to the Data on national debt as a percentage of gross domestic Transforming Youth Custody consultation. product is available up until 2012. Figures are shown in the table for each calendar year as requested. I have provided data which both includes and excludes the temporary effects of financial interventions as a result of the financial crisis. CABINET OFFICE PSF1 Public Sector Summary Balances Net Debt as a Net Debt as a Cot Deaths percentage of GDP percentage of GDP (excluding financial (including financial interventions) interventions) Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet HF6X RUTO Office what the annual cost is of publishing annual figures on how many babies die of sudden infant death 1993 34.8 34.8 syndrome each year. [174188] 1994 39 39 1995 41.5 41.5 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the 1996 42.5 42.5 responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have 1997 42.2 42.2 asked the authority to reply. 1998 39.5 39.5 Letter from Peter Fullerton, dated November 2013: 1999 37.3 37.3 2000 32.4 32.4 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent question asking the 2001 31.2 31.2 Secretary of State for Health what the annual cost of publishing 2002 32.1 32.1 annual figures on how many babies die of sudden infant death 2003 33.3 33.3 syndrome each year is. [174188] 2004 35 35 The cost to ONS in 2013 for producing the statistical bulletin 2005 36.2 36.2 ’Unexplained deaths in infancy in England and Wales, 2011’ was 2006 36.7 36.7 estimated to be £11,200. 2007 37.3 44.1 Figures for unexplained deaths in infancy, in England and 2008 42.9 149.8 Wales are published annually on the ONS website: 2009 51 154.6 http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/child-health/unexplained- 2010 65 148.7 deaths-in-infancy--england-and-wales/index.html 2011 70.4 143.2 127W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 128W

PSF1 Public Sector Summary Balances Unemployment: Northamptonshire Net Debt as a Net Debt as a percentage of GDP percentage of GDP (excluding financial (including financial Mr Hollobone: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet interventions) interventions) Office what the level of unemployment was in (a) HF6X RUTO Kettering constituency and (b) Northamptonshire in 2012 74.6 138.1 (i) October 2013 and (ii) May 2010. [173868] Source: ONS, Public Sector Finances Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Unemployment: Chelmsford responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Mr Simon Burns: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Letter from Glen Watson, dated November 2013: Office how many people aged 18 to 24 years were As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I unemployed in (a) Chelmsford constituency and (b) have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Chelmsford local authority area in each of the last 12 what the level of unemployment was in (a) Kettering constituency months. [173836] and (b) Northamptonshire in (1) October 2013 and (2) May 2010 [173868]. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey asked the authority to reply. following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. However, estimates of unemployment for Kettering parliamentary Letter from Glen Watson, dated October 2013: constituency are not available due to small sample sizes. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I As an alternative, we have provided the number of people have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) in Kettering parliamentary how many people aged 18 to 24 years were unemployed in (a) constituency and Northamptonshire, for May 2010 and September Chelmsford constituency and (b) Chelmsford local authority area 2013, the latest period available. in each of the last 12 months. (173836) The counts of people claiming JSA are those who are claiming The Office for National Statistics compiles unemployment benefits for unemployment related purposes. At a UK level the statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey total number of JSA claimants is around two thirds of the total following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. unemployment level. However, estimates of unemployment for the requested age band National and local area estimates for many labour market in Chelmsford Parliamentary Constituency and Local Authority statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant are not available due to small sample sizes. count are available on the NOMIS website at: As an alternative, we have provided the number of people aged http://www.nomisweb.co.uk 18 to 24 years claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) in Chelmsford Constituency and Local Authority, for each of the last twelve Table 1: Number of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Kettering months. constituency and Northamptonshire The counts of people claiming JSA are those who are claiming Kettering Northamptonshire benefits for unemployment related purposes. At a UK level the May 2010 2,042 15,616 total number of JSA claimants is around two thirds of the total September 2013 1,886 12,927 unemployment level. Source: National and local area estimates for many labour market Jobcentreplus Administrative System statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant count are available on the NOMIS website at: Voluntary Work: Young People http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Table 1: Number1, 2 of people aged 18 to 24 years claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Chelmsford constituency and local authority in each of the last 12 months Office (1) what steps he is taking to increase Number participation in the National Citizenship Service; Chelmsford Chelmsford local [173432] constituency authority (2) how many young people in (a) Stafford 2012 constituency and (b) England took part in the October 580 785 National Citizen Service in (i) 2010, (ii) 2011, (iii) 2012 [173433] November 565 760 and (iv) 2013; December 535 705 (3) how many young people in (a) Stafford constituency and (b) England took part in the 2013 International Citizen Service in (i) 2010, (ii) 2011, (iii) 2012 and (iv) 2013. [173434] January 590 775 February 600 805 Mr Hurd: The NCS programme has expanded rapidly, March 575 765 with 8,500 young people participating during the first April 540 730 pilot year in 2011 and just over 26,000 in 2012. Numbers May 525 705 of participants for 2013 will be published in due course. June 485 650 July 530 695 The aim of this Government is that NCS should be a August 525 690 rite of passage for all 16 and 17-year-olds. September 520 680 Considerable care is taken to ensure that young people 1 Data rounded to nearest 5. from disadvantaged backgrounds have access to the 2 Computerised claims only. Information on age of claimant is available only for programme through outreach and bursaries. Full payment computerised claims which currently make up 99.8% of all claims. Source: for providers is only achievable if they recruit a Jobcentre Plus Administrative System. representative cohort of young people in each local 129W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 130W authority area by ethnicity, socioeconomic background The information is not held in a format to enable a and those who have been in or who have recently left split between sections 4A and 4B as not all Court care, have offended or have special educational needs. Orders indicate the sections requested. Regarding participation in the Staffordshire local authority region, in 2012 (the first year that this information European Commission is available) 142 young people took part. Further details for 2013 will be available in due course. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for The International Citizen Service Pilot programme Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many visits ran from March 2011 to November 2012. This programme the Permanent Secretary and the four next most senior enabled 1,216 UK citizens to depart from the UK on civil servants in his Department made to the European placements. Commission in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [173782]

Dan Rogerson: The number of visits made to the ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS European Commission by the Permanent Secretary and Animal Welfare: Circuses four most senior civil servants, between 1 April 2010 and 31 March 2013, is provided in the following table: Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will ensure Name 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 that the draft Wild Animals in Circuses Bill is altered to Helen Ghosh, Permanent 0 n/a n/a also end the transportation of wild animals with Secretary until 31 travelling circuses. [174172] December 2010 Bronwyn Hill, Permanent 010 George Eustice: No. As the Environment, Food and Secretary Rural Affairs Select Committee concluded in their recent Ian Boyd, Chief Scientific n/a n/a 1 pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Wild Animals in Adviser Circuses Bill, extending the scope of the Bill, to include Peter Unwin, DG Policy 100 areas such as transportation, would introduce greater Delivery restrictions on ownership than are intended. The Bill is Ian Trenholm, DG Chief n/a n/a 0 focused on the use of the animals not their ownership. Operating Officer The Government agrees that, in the absence of any Katrina Williams, DG 100 Strategy, Evidence and welfare issues, which can already be dealt with by Customers existing welfare legislation, further restrictions on wild animals in circuses could amount to a de facto restriction on ownership. Fisheries: Morocco Coastal Areas Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether the new Mike Thornton: To ask the Secretary of State for protocol to the EU-Morocco Fisheries Partnership Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when the Agreement applies outside the Exclusive Economic England Coast Path will be extended to areas in Zone claimed by Morocco. [173545] Hampshire. [174089] George Eustice [holding answer 1 November 2013]: Dan Rogerson: The Government is continuing the The new Protocol to the EU-Morocco Fisheries Partnership programme to extend the coastal path network around Agreement would apply to certain fishing activity by the English coast. We have not set a timetable for EU vessels inside the Moroccan fishing zone, which is extending the English coastal path into Hampshire. We waters falling within the sovereignty or jurisdiction of will be implementing coastal access step-by-step by the Kingdom of Morocco. The Annex to the Protocol tailoring the amount of activity to the resources available. requires Morocco to inform the EU of the geographical Dangerous Dogs coordinates of its fishing zone, prior to the date of application of the Protocol. Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many dogs Food Banks: Disability in (a) England, (b) Scotland and (c) Wales were placed on the register of exempt dogs in 2012 under Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State section 4A and section 4B procedures of the for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if his Dangerous Dogs (Amendment) Act 1997. [174042] Department will take steps to ensure that people in food poverty with mobility limitations are made more George Eustice: The total number of dogs placed on aware of food banks and have access to food banks. the register of exempted dogs in 2012 is as follows: [172111]

Number of dogs George Eustice: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer given by the Minister of State for Employment, (a) England 451 my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther (b) Wales 24 McVey), on 14 October 2013, Official Report, columns (c) Scotland 2 489-90W,on food banks, which explained when Jobcentre Total 477 Plus staff will signpost people to food banks. 131W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 132W

Forests UK Membership of EU

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will make Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment an assessment of the costs and benefits of a decision he has made of the effect on woodland creation of the for the UK to leave the EU in his Department’s area of hiatus created by current discussions on the reform of responsibility; and if he will make a statement. [173741] CAP. [173936] Dan Rogerson: I refer the hon. Member to the reply George Eustice: EU regulations which govern the given by the Minister for Europe, my right hon. Friend transition from the current Rural Development programme the Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington), on 29 January (RDP) to the next do not allow member states to make 2013, Official Report, column 709W,to the hon. Member any commitments in 2014 to fund planting of woodland for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds). for the first time on either agricultural or non-agricultural DEFRA has not made any plans for the UK’s withdrawal land. The new CAP regulations will allow this from from the EU. 2015. We are currently consulting on the use of CAP funds up to 2020. TREASURY The Forestry Commission is currently considering applications to fund planting of up to 2,900 hectares of Dark Pool Trading woodland in 2014. The current RDP has seen 12,442 hectares of woodland planted and funded through the 18 Natascha Engel: To ask the Chancellor of the English Woodland Grant scheme. Current applications Exchequer what plans he has for the regulation of dark would therefore represent an annual planting rate above pool trading. [900912] that in the current programme. Sajid Javid: Dark pools are systems which allow the trading of Pigmeat: Northern Ireland securities without publicly disclosing orders, and are subject to regulation under the markets in financial instruments directive. The Government anticipates that Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for the revised legislation will bring forward measures to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what place limits on dark trading. However, the specific discussions he has had with the Minister for measures that will be taken are the subject of ongoing Agriculture and Rural Development in the Northern negotiations between the European Parliament and the Ireland Executive regarding the export of pork from Council of the European Union. Northern Ireland to China, Russia and Australia; and if he will make a statement; [173979] Youth Unemployment (2) what discussions he has had with the pork 19. Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the industry in Northern Ireland regarding exports of pork Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the to China, Russia and Australia; and if he will make a effect of fiscal policy on the rate of unemployment statement. [173981] among young people. [900913]

George Eustice: Ministers have not had discussions Nicky Morgan: I refer the right hon. Member to the with either the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Chief Secretary’s earlier response today to the hon. Development in the Northern Ireland Executive or the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget pork industry in Northern Ireland regarding the export Phillipson). of pork from Northern Ireland to China, Russia and Child Poverty Australia. However representatives of the Northern Ireland industry are members of the UK Export 20. Mr Hepburn: To ask the Chancellor of the Certification Partnership, a joint government and industry Exchequer what recent estimate he has made of the forum that discusses, prioritises and progresses market effect of fiscal policy on the level of child poverty. access negotiations to non EU markets. DEFRA officials [900914] work closely with colleagues in the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development. DEFRA negotiates Nicky Morgan: The Government has protected market access on behalf of the United Kingdom by vulnerable groups as far as possible while urgently providing assurances that animal health and food safety taking action to tackle the record deficit it inherited. controls are applied consistently across the country. Work remains the best and most immediate way out We are currently progressing negotiations to increase of poverty and the Budget took action to support the number of establishments approved for the export families and make the tax and welfare system fairer, of pork to these destinations, including establishments including further increasing the income tax personal in Northern Ireland. The Government’s strategy for allowance to take 2.7 million people on low incomes out increasing food and drink exports to non EU markets is of tax altogether. outlined in the Export Action Plan. Throughout the Child Care year ministers take the opportunity to discuss trade issues with all UK exporters, including those from 21. George Hollingbery: To ask the Chancellor of the Northern Ireland, at national and international trade Exchequer what steps he is taking to help families with events. the cost of childcare. [900915] 133W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 134W

Nicky Morgan: The Government is introducing Tax-Free Banks: Finance Childcare in autumn 2015 to provide support for working families with 20% of child care costs up to £6,000 for Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the each child under 12. Exchequer what the effect on the national debt was of This will build on current investment of around money given to failing banking institutions in each £5 billion a year in child care support through: year from 2008. [173705] extending the free entitlement to provide 15 hours a week of free early education and child care for all three and four-year-olds, Nicky Morgan: Figures measuring the impact of the and to 40% of two-year-olds from lower income families; financial crisis (activities undertaken to support financial providing 70% of child care costs through the working tax institutions) on the Government balance sheet can be credit; and found in Table M9 of the Maastricht Treaty statistical extending this support under universal credit to those working bulletin on the Office for National Statistics (ONS) fewer than 16 hours a week. website at: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/psa/eu-government-debt-and- Financial Services deficit-returns/september-2013/stb---september-2013.html

23. James Wharton: To ask the Chancellor of the City of London Exchequer what recent steps he has taken to regulate financial services. [900917] Mr Watson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer on which dates he met the City of London Sajid Javid: The Government has created a new Remembrancer since May 2010. [173147] architecture for financial regulation. The Financial Policy Committee in the Bank of England has macro-prudential Sajid Javid: Treasury Ministers and officials have responsibility for protecting and enhancing financial meetings with a wide variety of organisations in the stability, while the Prudential Regulation Authority will public and private sectors as part of the process of ensure individual firms are effectively regulated. The policy development and delivery. Financial Conduct Authority will protect consumers, Details of ministerial and permanent secretary meetings promote competition, and enhance integrity in markets. with external organisations on departmental business The Government is also implementing the are published on a quarterly basis and are available at: recommendations of the Independent Commission on http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm Banking and the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. Commodity Markets Bank Services: Fees and Charges Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make it his policy to support the Nic Dakin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer European Commission’s proposal of 30 September what discussions his Department has had with the 2013 to regulate commodity derivatives as part of the Financial Conduct Authority on the level of default or review of the Markets in Financial Instruments penalty fees charged when a customer goes into an Directive to limit speculation in the commodity unauthorised overdraft; and if he will make a markets; and if he will make a statement. [173916] statement. [173622] Sajid Javid: The Government has given careful Sajid Javid [holding answer 4 November 2013]: Treasury consideration to the effective methods of regulation Ministers and officials meet with a wide range of and supervision of commodity derivatives. The Government organisations as part of the usual policy making process. supports a regime based on strong supervision, market As with the previous Administration, this Government monitoring and a comprehensive suite of tools deployed does not provide details of these meetings. by market operators to ensure the orderly functioning of those markets. Nic Dakin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make an estimate of the amount UK bank Income Tax customers spend on bank fees and charges in a year. [173623] Mike Thornton: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many workers on low pay have stopped Sajid Javid [holding answer 4 November 2013]: The paying income tax since 2010. [900905] Government is clear that consumers must be able to easily access clear and transparent information about Danny Alexander: By 2013-14, 2.4 million low income bank charges; have a reasonable opportunity to manage individuals have been taken out of income tax altogether their account and control whether or not they incur as a result of this Government’s increases to the personal charges, allowance since 2010. This number will increase to 2.7 million once the personal allowance reaches £10,000 The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) found in January in April 2014. 2013 there has been a significant reduction in bank fees and charges since their 2008 market study. As a result, Minimum Wage consumers have saved hundreds of millions of pounds. Further information on the OFT’s review can be Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer found at: how many (a) prosecutions and (b) cautions for not www.oft.gov.uk/OFTwork/markets-work/othermarketswork/ paying the minimum wage there were in each year from pca-review/ its introduction to 2008-09. [173525] 135W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 136W

Mr Gauke: The Government takes the enforcement Total managed expenditure as of NMW very seriously and HMRC review every complaint percentage of GDP1,2 that is referred to them, investigating the complaint and, in addition, carrying out targeted enforcement 2012-13 42.9 where we identify a high risk of non-payment of NMW. 1 Sources: HM Treasury, Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses (PESA) 2013. HMRC has never issued cautions for not paying the Office for National Statistics, Gross domestic product at market prices not minimum wage because, where arrears due to non-payment seasonally adjusted (series BKTL). 2 TME excludes the temporary effects of banks being classified to the public of the minimum wage are identified, a formal notice of sector. See Box 5.A in PESA 2013 for details. underpayment is sent to the employer. The most recent forecast from the Office for Budget I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on Responsibility, published alongside Budget 2013, shows 8 October 2013, Official Report, column 152W, to the total managed expenditure will return to 40.5% of GDP right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy). by 2017-18. National Insurance Contributions Smuggling: Tobacco Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many people and employers will be ineligible for Mr Barron: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the national insurance employment allowance for each when he expects to sign the World Health Organisation of the exceptions classes set out in Clause 2 of the Protocol to Eliminate Illicit Trade in Tobacco Products. National Insurance Contributions Bill 2013. [174081] [173589]

Mr Gauke: It is estimated that around 50,000 employers Nicky Morgan: The Government welcomes the World will be ineligible for the national insurance contributions Health Organisation Protocol to Eliminate Illicit Trade employment allowance. in Tobacco Products and is working with the European Current figures estimate 1.3 million employers are Commission and member states to agree the signing liable to pay national insurance contributions. The national procedure. The UK expects to sign the Protocol before insurance employer allowance will benefit 1.25 million the end of the year. employers. Further Information about the scheme is published Tax Allowances: Married People and available on: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/national- Mr Simon Burns: To ask the Chancellor of the insurance-contributions-bill Exchequer what proportion of married couples in Chelmsford will benefit from the married couples tax Public Expenditure allowance announced on 30 September 2013. [173837]

Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Gauke: Reliable estimates are not available at this Exchequer what public spending as a percentage of geographical level due to insufficient sample size. gross domestic product has been in each year between 1993 and 2013. [173703] VAT Nicky Morgan: The following table sets out total managed expenditure as a percentage of gross domestic Steve Rotheram: To ask the Chancellor of the product over the period from 1992-93 to 2012-13. Exchequer if he will make an assessment of the effect on the cost of living of the rate of VAT. [900902] Total managed expenditure as percentage of GDP1,2 Mr Gauke: The only way to deliver a sustained 1992-93 43.3 improvement in living standards is to tackle the economy’s 1993-94 42.6 problems head on and deliver a recovery that works for 1994-95 42.1 all. 1995-96 41.4 Decisive action on the deficit—to which VAT is making 1996-97 39.3 a significant contribution—has been an essential part 1997-98 37.8 of making a soundly-based recovery. 1998-99 36.8 1999-2000 36.2 Welfare Tax Credits 2000-01 34.3 2001-02 37.7 2002-03 38.6 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the 2003-04 39.4 Exchequer how many tax credit awards were made in 2004-05 40.3 relation to children who were aged (a) 17, (b) 18 and 2005-06 40.7 (c) 19 in the last year. [173692] 2006-07 40.4 2007-08 40.6 Nicky Morgan [holding answer 4 November 2013]: 2008-09 44.0 The following table is based on a snapshot of tax credits 2009-10 47.0 awards as at April 2013 and represents the number of 2010-11 46.2 families with a 17/18/19-year-old as of April 2013. It is 2011-12 44.9 liable to change once awards are finalised. 137W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 138W

powers under the Public Library and Museum Act 1964 Number of families in receipt of Child age child tax credits and together with the Department’s regular consultation with a range of stakeholders with relevant expertise is 17 281,000 able to ensure suitable support is provided. 18 213,000 Sports: Chelmsford 19 105,000 Tax credits are awarded at a family level, and that is Mr Simon Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for how the information is provided. Culture, Media and Sport what estimate she has made of the proportion of people aged (a) under 16, (b) 16 Families have been included in a group if they have at to 24, (c) 25 to 39, (d) 40 to 60 and (e) over 60 years least one eligible child of the relevant age. They will be old who regularly take part in recreational sport in counted in more than one group if they have multiple Chelmsford constituency; and what change there has children of the ages 17, 18 or 19. been in those figures in the last three years. [173840] Mr Vaizey: Sport England’s Active People Survey CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT measures the number of people aged 16 and above Broadband: Essex taking part in sport across England at least once a week, every week. For the Chelmsford local authority, Mr Simon Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for the survey shows that: Culture, Media and Sport what progress has been made 44.3% of people aged 16 and above play sport regularly. This is in rolling out broadband to (a) towns and (b) villages a decrease of 0.4% since 2010. in Essex. [173839] 70.2% of people aged 16-34 play sport regularly. This is an increase of 7.7% since 2010. Mr Vaizey: According to Ofcom’s recent infrastructure 42.2% of people aged 35-54 play sport regularly. This is a report 73% of premises in the UK now have access to decrease of 3.8% since 2010. superfast broadband and approximately 97% have the 25.3% of the population aged 55+ play sport regularly. This is ability to access standard broadband with speeds of a decrease of 2.6% since 2010. 2 Mbps or above. The Government has committed to We do not hold statistics on the proportion of under achieve 95% superfast coverage by 2017 and to ensure 16-year-olds playing sport regularly in Chelmsford. universal availability of standard broadband. Essex county Written Questions: Government Responses council entered into a contract in August 2013 for delivery of a project to extend superfast broadband in Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, rural areas and to provide universal standard broadband, Media and Sport when she intends to reply to the and survey and design work is under way. Essex has Question from the hon. Member for Barnsley Central received £6.46 million from DCMS, which has been tabled on 9 September 2013 on the Public Libraries and matched by Essex county council. Museums Act 1964. [173922] Ofcom also reported that Essex county had 74% superfast broadband coverage by October 2013. Mr Vaizey: This question will be answered today. HMS Victory

Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for DEFENCE Culture, Media and Sport what discussions she has had Army with the Ministry of Defence about salvage operations on the wreck of HMS Victory; and if she will make a Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence statement. [173850] what the (a) manning and (b) sustainability figures were for each battalion of the (i) Royal Regiment of Mr Vaizey: Ministers and officials from the Ministry Scotland (and its antecedent units),(ii) Brigade of Defence and the Department for Culture, Media and of Guards, (iii) Parachute Regiment, (iv) Princess of Sport have had regular discussions about the future Wales’s Royal Regiment and (v) Royal Regiment of protection and management of HMS Victory, which Fusiliers in each of the last 15 years. [174083] sank in 1744. Proposals from the Maritime Heritage Foundation are currently under consideration and no Mr Francois: I refer my hon. Friend to the information final decisions have been taken. placed in the Library of the House on 17 October 2012 Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 which provides manning and sustainability figures for the whole of the Infantry for the period from January Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 1995 to October 2011. Media and Sport what assessment she has made of the The manning figures for 2012 and 2013 are shown in adequacy of the resources available to her Department the following table: to exercise the default powers of the Secretary of State provided for in the Public Libraries and Museums Strength Act 1964. [168574] Unit July 2012 July 2013 Mr Vaizey [holding answer 12 September 2013]: The 1st Battalion Grenadier 550 450 Guards Department has officials with appropriate skills and 1st Battalion Coldstream 490 480 knowledge to advise the Secretary of State for Culture, Guards Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for 1st Battalion Scots Guards 580 520 Basingstoke (Maria Miller), on the use of her statutory 139W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 140W

Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Strength Defence when he next plans to meet his Malaysian Unit July 2012 July 2013 counterpart to discuss the Five Powers Defence 1st Battalion Irish Guards 510 470 Arrangements. [173509] 1st Battalion Welsh 540 510 Guards Dr Murrison: The Secretary of State for Defence, my 1st Battalion The Royal 570 510 right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Regiment of Scotland Weybridge (Mr Hammond), discussed the Five Powers 2nd Battalion The Royal 500 540 Defence Arrangements (FPDA) with his Malaysian Regiment of Scotland counterpart at the Shangri-La Dialogue this summer. I 3rd Battalion The Royal 530 510 anticipate that the next time such discussions will take Regiment of Scotland place will be at the next meeting of the Five Powers 4th Battalion The Royal 460 530 Defence Arrangements Ministerial Meeting (FDMM). Regiment of Scotland This is due to be held in the middle of 2014. 5th Battalion The Royal 530 450 Regiment of Scotland Reserve Forces: Young People 1st Battalion The Princess 640 570 of Wales’s Royal Regiment Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 2nd Battalion The Princess 560 500 of Wales’s Royal Regiment what work is taking place to assess the effect that 1st Battalion The Royal 630 620 service in the Reserves might have on young people Regiment of Fusiliers from deprived backgrounds. [173983] 2nd Battalion The Royal 570 520 Regiment of Fusiliers Mr Dunne: For individuals not in employment, reserve 1st Battalion The 530 530 service offers an excellent opportunity to gain employment Parachute Regiment skills arid experience. The Ministry of Defence has 2nd Battalion The 520 490 piloted a number of training schemes for those not in Parachute Regiment employment, education or training, some of which have 3rd Battalion The 510 510 resulted in trainees achieving NVQ qualifications. These Parachute Regiment are programmes that the Department will be developing further. Information on sustainability for 2012 and 2013 is not held. The estimates of sustainability for the period Territorial Army: Northern Ireland 1995 to 2011 were produced as part of the Army’s work for Army 2020 and is not information that is generally Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence produced. what plans his Department has for the future use of Territorial Army bases in Northern Ireland. [173710] Home Ownership Dr Murrison: There are no current plans to change Mr Marcus Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for the detail announced in the House by the Secretary of Defence what steps he is taking to help improve home State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for ownership amongst members of the armed forces. Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), on 3 July [900874] 2013, Official Report, columns 49-53WS. Where Territorial Army bases no longer have a Defence purpose, they will Anna Soubry: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I be disposed of by the Defence Infrastructure Organisation, gave to my hon. Friends the Members for Romsey and in accordance with departmental procedures. Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) and UK Membership of EU Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) on 4 November 2013, Official Report, columns 10-11. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make an assessment of the costs and Military Alliances benefits of a decision for the UK to leave the EU in his Department’s area of responsibility; and if he will Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [173738] Defence if he will place in the Library a copy of the five-year plan for Five Powers Defence Arrangements Dr Murrison: I refer the hon. Member to the answer exercises. [173506] given by the Minister for Europe, my right hon. Friend Dr Murrison: Since the five year plan for Five Powers the Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington), on 29 January Defence Arrangements exercises is a classified document, 2013, Official Report, column 709W,to the hon. Member I am unable to place a copy in the Library of the House. for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds). The Department has hot made any plans for the UK’s Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for withdrawal from the EU. Defence what plans he has to extend the Five Powers War Pensions Defence Arrangements to cover non-conventional threats. [173507] Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Dr Murrison: The Five Powers Defence Arrangements what proportion of applications to the war pension are not specific to any particular threat type. Therefore, scheme are successful in receiving financial I see no requirement to extend them. compensation. [174097] 141W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 142W

Mr Dunne: The following table provides the claims Michael Fallon: The Government has begun intake and those awarded by pension type under the compensating companies for the indirect costs of the provisions of the War Pensions Scheme in the latest European Union Emissions Trading System in accordance period for which figures are available. with the guidance which we published on 20 May. To War Pensions Scheme date a total of £16 million has been paid to 17 companies. Claims To date no companies have been compensated for the awarded and indirect costs of the carbon floor price as we are waiting receiving Claims financial for state aid clearance from the European Commission. Received Percentage compensation Subject to this we expect to commence compensation in (Number) awarded (%) (Number) 2014. All War 8,650 67 5,825 Disablement Exports Pension claims Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Warships Business, Innovation and Skills what the rate of growth in exports of (a) goods and (b) services from each UK Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for region was in each of the last three years. [173431] Defence what the reasons are for the (a) underspend in the building cost of HMS Portland and (b) overspend Michael Fallon: The annual rate of growth in goods in the cost of HMS Sutherland. [173702] exports from each UK region since 2010 is given in Table 1. These estimates are based on Regional Trade Mr Dunne: In order to establish the reasons for the Statistics figures published by HMRC at the following variation in the build costs of HMS Portland (in service link, date September 2001) and HMS Sutherland (in service https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/RTS/Pages/ date December 1997), it would be necessary to investigate default.aspx historic contract information that is no longer held A breakdown of UK exports of services by region is centrally by the Ministry of Defence and could be not available. provided only at disproportionate cost. Table 1: Annual growth in exports of goods, by UK region Percentage 2012 2011 2010

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS East -4.3 20.8 12.5 East Midlands 3.0 16.6 4.9 EADS London 1.2 18.1 28.6 North East 1.0 13.3 24.5 Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for North West -4.2 6.5 5.8 Business, Innovation and Skills what public funding South East -2.8 1.1 10.5 from the public purse EADS received in the latest South West -1.9 11.4 7.0 period for which figures are available. [172376] West Midlands 7.3 15.4 29.4 Yorkshire and -3.0 15.4 19.6 Michael Fallon [holding answer 31 October 2013]: the Humber EADS consists of a number of subsidiaries, including England -0.8 11.8 15.1 Airbus. I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I provided Northern Ireland -4.7 8.6 3.4 to him on 31 October 2013, Official Report, column Scotland 1.3 11.2 13.2 579W. Wales -10.4 14.3 18.9 Unknown 13.2 16.2 33.3 The Government has a range of contractual and Notes: funding arrangements with EADS and its subsidiary 1. The ’Unknown’ category includes trade that cannot be assigned to one of the companies, many of them commercially sensitive. nine English regions, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. 2. The figures are distorted by the so-called ’head office effect’. The national In the financial year 2012-13, EADS received payments head office usually makes trade declarations on behalf of some or all companies on MOD contracts for just over £812 million. In addition, within the trading group. This creates a bias towards recording trade to regions around London and the South-East (where head/administrative offices predominate) it received around £55 million in repayable interest-bearing and away from other regions. loans and also grants for R&D and skills-related activities. Source: Over the same period, EADS made repayments of HMRC Regional Trade Statistics. existing loans to the UK Government of just over Graduates: Employment £160 million. These figures do not include any arrangements that Mr Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for may have been made directly with the devolved Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking Administrations or local authorities. to ensure that British students have the skills to compete for jobs that are currently popular with Environment Protection: Taxation migrants. [174013]

Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Matthew Hancock: We are reforming the skills system Business, Innovation and Skills which companies have so that it is more rigorous, responds both to the needs of benefited from compensation for high energy user individuals and employers, matches the demands of the industry to mitigate the effect of the carbon floor tax local labour market and helps businesses to grow. This to date; and what amount was received by each. [174109] will enable residents in England to gain the skills employers 143W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 144W want and reduce businesses’ reliance on migrant workers. responding to Professor Elaine Kempson’s report on The key elements of our reforms are expanding and insolvency practitioner office-holder’s fees and enhancing raising the quality of apprenticeships, supporting and the powers of the Secretary of State as oversight regulator. demanding improved standards in further education, This will build on recent reforms which introduced a and giving employers more direct control over skills single complaints gateway for anyone making a complaint provision. against an insolvency practitioner, and common disciplinary Migrant workers are employed in different parts of guidelines for the recognised professional bodies which the economy at various skill levels. We are addressing authorise insolvency practitioners: low skill levels in the workforce by fully funding basic http://www.bis.gov.uk/insolvency/contact-us/IP-Complaints- English and maths and providing training targeted towards Gateway local employment opportunities. We are raising skill levels by supporting more higher apprenticeships, enabling Lasers progression to more highly skilled jobs, and encouraging universities to collaborate more closely with employers. Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for We are determined to create a highly skilled workforce Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment she that can compete successfully with the best in the world. has made of the availability of class 3a and 3b laser pens. [173892] Insolvency Jo Swinson: The Department has not made any Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment of the availability of class 3a and 3b laser Business, Innovation and Skills if he will bring forward pens. legislative proposals to preclude those who put Ministerial Policy Advisers companies into administration from choosing their own administrator. [173861] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many officials Jo Swinson: The Government has no plans to bring at what grades are employed to provide direct support forward additional legislation to preclude those who to special advisers in his Department. [174048] put companies into administration from choosing their own administrator as a number of safeguards already Jo Swinson: The Department has four ministerial exist to ensure the administration process is not abused. special advisers who are directly supported by one An administrator is already obliged by law to perform faststream; one higher executive officer and two executive their functions in the interests of the company’s creditors officer members of staff. as a whole, regardless of how and by whom their appointment has taken place. Only authorised insolvency New Businesses: Essex practitioners can be administrators and a creditor has the right to apply to Court for an order to remove an Mr Simon Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for administrator if they feel there has been a breach of Business, Innovation and Skills how many start-up duty in relation to the company. loans have been granted to businesses in (a) Chelmsford constituency and (b) Essex in the last five Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for years. [173838] Business, Innovation and Skills if he will bring forward Matthew Hancock: The Start-Up Loans scheme volumes legislative proposals to give creditors’ committees for (a) Chelmsford constituency and (b) Essex are as greater powers to instruct insolvency practitioners. follows. The Start-Up Loans Company does not capture [173862] data at constituency level, therefore the figures following Jo Swinson: The purpose of a creditors’ committee is are obtained by postcode region. to provide a forum for creditors to challenge and influence (a) Chelmsford—25 loans with a total value of £205,257 an insolvency practitioner’s actions, including in relation (b) Essex—83 loans with a total value of £586,447 to their remuneration. Post Offices Professor Elaine Kempson has recently published a review into fees charged by insolvency practitioner office- Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for holders: Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what assessment he http://www.bis.gov.uk/insolvency/insolvency-profession/ has made of the effects on local communities of post review-of-ip-fees office branch closures; [173884] which proposes reforms to the way in which creditors (2) what steps he has taken to reduce the number of engage in insolvency, including creditors’ committees. closures of post office branches. [173885] We are now working on a proposed way forward and intend to make announcement in due course. Jo Swinson: This Government has made a commitment that there will be no Post Office closure programme, Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for planned or otherwise, and is providing £1.34 billion to Business, Innovation and Skills if he will bring forward 2015 to modernise and create a sustainable Post Office legislative proposals to introduce an insolvency network of at least 11,500 branches which is also compliant practitioner ombudsman. [173863] with the Government-set access criteria. The Post Office network has experienced a high level of stability since Jo Swinson: The Government is considering proposals 2010, halting over two decades of closures and decline. to improve confidence in the insolvency practitioner The size of the network is at its most stable for over regime and increase returns to creditors. This will include 20 years. 145W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 146W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT The Office of Fair Trading published its report and recommendations on its investigation into transfer fees Billing on 1 February 2013. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Council Tax for Communities and Local Government how many invoices have been paid more than once resulting in a Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for duplicate payment by his Department since May 2010. Communities and Local Government for how many [174076] local authorities in England it is a default position to Brandon Lewis: In my Department’s publication “50 collect council tax payments via direct debit or other ways to save”, we asserted that councils could save fractional payment means over 12 months rather than money by conducting audits of potential duplicate 10. [170597] payments and reforming accounts payable processes. This was based on research by Experian of both local Brandon Lewis: Since April 2013. local taxpayers and central Government bodies. have been able to request to pay their council tax bills over 12 monthly payments rather than 10 payments, if In my answer of 22 January 2013, Official Report, they wish. column 210-211W, I noted how my Department has itself undertaken such best practice, and had duly recovered This is an option for individual taxpayers. £48,186 of taxpayers’ money from duplicate payments, We have not specifically asked councils to change apart from a sum of £257 which was not recoverable. I their default position. We do not collect data accordingly. also noted that we had commissioned business analytics But I am open to representations on how we can further and information services firm, PRGX, to carry out a promote this new right. full spend-recovery audit on our accounts payable system and help us further improve and reform administrative Electrical Safety practices. The PRGX analysis and best practice recommendations Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for has since helped us recover further payments. From Communities and Local Government what assessment May 2010 to October 2013, a total of £61,301 has been he has made of the risks of fire in the home caused by recovered from 20 duplicate payments made in that an increase in the use of moulded plastic fuse boards. period, while just £257 (from three payments) was not [173383] recoverable. My Department has also been able to recover a further £32,000 from historic payments made Brandon Lewis: Safety standards for electrical equipment between 2006 and 2009. are set by the British Standards Institute. PRGX’s audit report has subsequently noted that My Department has made no assessment of the risks 99.999% of the transaction value reviewed was processed of fire in the home caused by an increase in the use of correctly, and that: moulded plastic fuse boxes. However, I am aware that ″DCLG have been effective in limiting supplier overpayments. the British Standards Institute is currently considering The low rate of errors identified by the audit and statement the issue of overheated cut out fuses following a report request process indicates the current processes and controls continue by East Sussex Fire and Rescue Service. to limit supplier overpayments.″ This sizeable saving endorses what we said in “50 First East ways to save”: systematically addressing duplicate payments is a common-sense way of saving taxpayers’ money. Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much (a) Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State his Department and (b) relevant local authorities spent for Communities and Local Government whether his on 1st East Urban Regeneration Company throughout Department issues e-bills when requesting payments that body’s existence. [171911] from other bodies. [174078] Kris Hopkins: 1st East Urban Regeneration Company Brandon Lewis: Currently the Department for received support of £1,025,000 from the Department’s Communities and Local Government does not issue delivery bodies—English Partnerships and subsequently e-bills when requesting payments from other bodies, the Homes and Communities Agency (of which the although, invoices are often sent as e-mail attachments. Homes and Communities Agency contributed £650,000)— We do plan to implement e-billing in due course. from its formation in 2005 until its closure on 31 March Care Homes 2011. In addition to the above, the Department has supported Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of the area formerly covered by 1st East Urban Regeneration State for Communities and Local Government what Company, Lowestoft and Great Yarmouth, in a number recent assessment he has made of the use of transfer or of ways: exit fees charged on retirement homes; and if he will The Coastal Communities Fund awarded Great Yarmouth make a statement. [173690] borough council £600,000 to provide business and social enterprise support, skills and training to help create 200 businesses and 300 Kris Hopkins [holding answer 4 November 2013]: The new jobs. Department for Communities and Local Government The Coastal Communities Fund also awarded Suffolk county has not made an assessment on the use of transfer or council £762,000 to create 200 new employer-led apprenticeships exit fees that arise out of covenants found in leases in to develop skills in the low-carbon energy sector in coastal the residential leasehold retirement sector. communities in Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex. 147W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 148W

The Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft Enterprise Zone has been 30 June 2011, Official Report, columns 58-9WS, on the established in the New Anglia Local Enterprise Partnership area, conclusions of that review. There was not a great degree covering two sites in Great Yarmouth and four sites around of consensus among the public, or indeed local government, Lowestoft including the port areas of both towns. on the way ahead. The New Anglia Local Enterprise Partnership received £3 million from the Regional Growth Fund (Round 3) to provide access to Consequently, we think it best to take this forward on finance to small and medium enterprises in East Anglia which a case by case basis—for example, the draft Deregulation includes Great Yarmouth. The programme will create over 150 jobs Bill contains provision for the removal of some redundant locally over its lifetime. The Local Enterprise Partnership was duties. also successful in its application to extend the programme in Round 4, in July. The exact terms of the award, including grant Local Government: Bye Laws and jobs target is currently being agreed. European Regional Development funding has been provided to benefit businesses and support job creation across Norfolk and Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Suffolk. Projects in the area include SCORE, Hub to Spokes and Communities and Local Government when he intends East Coast Carbon Efficiency. to bring forward legislative proposals on new The Department does not hold information on local regulations to bring into effect a simplified by-law authority spending. process for local authorities. [173401] Foreign Investment in UK Brandon Lewis: We intend before the end of this parliamentary Session to lay regulations simplifying Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for councils’ byelaw making processes. Communities and Local Government what discussions he has had with UK Trade & Industry on inward Mortgages: Government Assistance investments into enterprise zones. [173664] Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Kris Hopkins: The Secretary of State for Communities Communities and Local Government what value of and Local Government has had regular engagement loans applied for under the Help to Buy scheme to date with UK Trade & Industry in respect to their role relate to properties in (a) Greater London and (b) the regarding inward investment since the 24 enterprise rest of England; and what estimate he has made of zones were announced in 2011. This reflects the importance demand for the scheme in each region of the UK. of their role in terms of attracting inward investment to [170024] the UK and actively supporting enterprise zones to market their offer to foreign direct investors. Kris Hopkins [holding answer 9 October 2013]: The Housing Estates: Management Help to Buy equity loan scheme is a demand-led scheme, which we anticipate will help up to 74,000 households into a new build home, supporting investment of over Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for £3.7 billion, between 2013-14 and 2015-16. Communities and Local Government if he will commission a review of the level of service offered to Official statistics for the Help to Buy equity loan homeowners by property management companies. scheme, including local authority-level data, will be published by my Department on 21 November. Initial [173601] indications have indicated that the scheme has already Kris Hopkins: The Government has no plans to helped 15,000 households reserve a new build home in commission a review of the level of service offered to the first six months. homeowners by property management companies. As outlined in the written ministerial statement of Official Report The “Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013” 18 September 2012, , columns 32-5WS, includes a power for the Secretary of State to require my Department does not collate statistics by the former leasehold managing agents, among others, to belong to Government office regions. an approved redress scheme, and we are making rapid The separate Help to Buy mortgage guarantee scheme progress in putting such schemes in place. is overseen by HM Treasury.

Local Government Non-domestic Rates: Nottinghamshire

Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what assessment Communities and Local Government what the total his Department has made of the potential to reduce the value of business rates levied in Nottinghamshire was number of statutory duties imposed on local in each of the last three years; and in which authorities. [173379] parliamentary constituency each business paying such rates is located. [170900] Brandon Lewis: The Government is committed to reducing burdens on local government, and has undertaken Brandon Lewis: Details of the amount (in £ thousands) a series of steps to remove top-down inspection, rein in of non-domestic rates collectable from ratepayers in data reporting and scale back ring-fencing. Certainly, Nottinghamshire in respect of each of the last three there is more to do. years are shown in the following table. The figures My Department undertook a comprehensive review shown are the amount authorities would collect in the of the statutory duties that relate to local government in year if everyone liable for non-domestic rates in that 2011. I refer my hon. Friend to the written statement of year had paid. This includes not only those who are 149W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 150W liable to pay for the whole year but also those who are Estates. While not shared, Sir Bob Kerslake combines liable to pay for part of the year and takes account of his role as DCLG Permanent Secretary with his Head the amount of relief given. of the Civil Service role.

£000 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Ashfield 29,529 30,746 32,043 Energy Companies Obligation Bassetlaw 36,317 37,299 39,229 Broxtowe 23,447 24,599 25,079 Gedling 20,059 20,524 21,074 Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Mansfield 26,410 27,747 28,456 Energy and Climate Change how many Energy Newark and 29,646 35,431 37,898 Company Obligation measures were installed, by type Sherwood of obligation, between October 2012 and December Nottingham 123,476 126,299 127,835 2012. [174141] City Rushcliffe 22,266 22,750 24,205 Gregory Barker: The latest monthly statistical release Total 311,150 325,395 335,819 showed that a provisional 244,882 measures were installed under the Energy Company Obligation (ECO) to end of his information is contained in statistical releases on August 2013. Very few of these measures were installed collection rates of council tax and non-domestic rates before 2013 but Table 1 as follows provides a breakdown published on the DCLG part of the .gov.uk website. by installation date in 2012 and type of obligation. Data for 2010-11 can be found in table 7 of the Table 1: Provisional number of ECO measures installed between October- 2010-11 release: December 2012 by type of obligation https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/collection-rates- Carbon Savings Carbon Saving Communities Affordable for-council-tax-and-non-domestic-rates-in-england-2010-to- Obligation Obligation Warmth 2011 Data for 2011-12 and 2012-13 can be found in table 4 October 2012 174 7 9 of the 2012-13 release: November 2012 68 23 89 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/collection-rates- December 2012 94 140 248 for-council-tax-and-non-domestic-rates-in-england-2012-to- October- 336 170 346 2013 December 2012 The data are as reported by billing authorities on the The latest monthly statistical release can be found at: annual quarterly collection rates of council tax (QRC4) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/green-deal-and- return. Data are not collected at a constituency level. energy-company-obligation-eco-monthly-statistics-october- Year-on-year changes reflect a number of factors 2013 such as: changes in the base; the retail prices index Energy: Prices adjustment to annual bills; and variations in levels of relief granted. The Government’s commitment to the annual retail Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for prices index cap means that there has been no real terms Energy and Climate Change pursuant to his response increase in business rates since 1990. We have also taken to the hon. Member for Southampton Test of 31 a number of steps on business rates. We have: temporarily October 2013, Official Report, column 1101, which doubled the level of small business rate relief for a levies on consumer energy (a) are and (b) are not further year—making three and a half years in total—so subject to the Review announced by the Prime Minister that the higher level of relief will apply throughout on 23 October 2013. [173984] 2013-14; announced a new measure which will mean that empty new builds will be exempt from empty Gregory Barker: Further details will be announced at property rates for up to 18 months up to state aid limits the time of the autumn statement. As has already been between 1 October 2013 and 31 October 2016; simplified stated publicly, the work of the review is not looking at the process for claiming small business rate relief by investment incentives for renewables, the renewables removing red tape; introduced business rate relief in the obligation, contracts for difference and feed in tariffs, Enterprise Zones; waived £175 million of backdated which are essential for the Government’s long term business rates demands levied on businesses, including investment programme in the energy sector. some in ports; and given local authorities wide ranging, UK Membership of EU discretionary powers to grant business rates discounts. Senior Civil Servants Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will make an assessment of Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State the costs and benefits of a decision for the UK to leave for Communities and Local Government how many the EU in his Department’s area of responsibility; and senior staff his Department shares with other if he will make a statement. [173740] Government departments. [174079] Michael Fallon: I refer the hon. Member to the reply Brandon Lewis: The Department for Communities given to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North and Local Government shares two senior staff with East (Emma Reynolds), on 29 January 2013, Official other Government Departments. One is the Director of Report, column 709W. The Department has not made Internal Audit and the other the Deputy Director of any plans for the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. 151W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 152W

Water Power Lost Property

Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has International Development what equipment of her made of the total spending in the (a) public and (b) Department has been lost or stolen (a) overseas and private sector of all research on (i) wave and (ii) tidal (b) in the UK since 2011. [173920] energy sources since 2010; and if he will make a statement. [173864] Justine Greening: DFID’s central write off records show the following equipment reported as lost or stolen, Gregory Barker: The Government has spent overseas and in the UK, during the years ended 31 March approximately £47.42 million to support research and 2012 and 31 March 2013: development for wave and tidal technologies since 2010/11 to 2012/13. Spending per technology type is not currently Lost/stolen 2011-12 Lost/stolen 2012-13 available. Items UK Overseas UK Overseas

£ million Laptops 8 11 3 5 Funding organisation 2010/11 2011/12 2012/13 Mobile 2206 phones Research Councils UK 8.04 2.38 4.28 USB sticks 2 0 0 5 Energy Technologies 2.34 3.42 3.30 Blackberries 1 1 3 3 Institute1 Microphone 1 0 0 0 Technology Strategy Board 3.50 4.19 3.29 Monitor 0 0 1 0 Department of Energy and 12.6 — 0.08 Climate Change Total: £47.42 26.48 9.99 10.95 Philippines 1 The Energy Technologies Institute (ETI) is a public-private partnership. 50% of the ETI’s funding is received from the Department for Business and Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation’s (BIS’s) sponsored Technology Strategy Board (TSB) and International Development what support her Research Councils UK (RCUK). The figures provided only represent the public contribution to the ETI for expenditure on tidal and wave energy. Department is providing to those affected by the recent In addition, some of these schemes leverage additional earthquake in the Philippines. [173701] private sector funding. There may be other private sector research spend which organisations undertake Mr Duncan: DFID is providing a package of without public sector support. humanitarian support to over 300,000 people displaced as part of the Bohol earthquake and Zamboanga emergency, and to 945,000 people internally displaced by natural disaster and conflict in the Mindanao region INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT of the Philippines. Afghanistan The UK will provide around £4.3 million to meet urgent shelter, health and sanitation, and food needs. Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for The UK support will also help to protect those caught International Development what consideration she has up in violence and conflict, particularly women and given to introducing longer tours of stay for civilian girls. Funds will be managed by the United Nations staff of her Department in Afghanistan. [174067] Children’s Fund (UNICEF), the World Food Programme (WFP), the International Organisation for Migration Justine Greening: DFID follows standard tour and (IOM) and the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA). rotation lengths in line with other UK Government Departments in the British embassy. Stress Charitable Donations Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what decompression Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for support is available to civilian staff of her Department International Development what steps her Department after a period of duty overseas. [174065] is taking to encourage employees to make tax-free donations directly from salaries. [174082] Justine Greening: DFID offers decompression support to staff both during and after a period of duty overseas Justine Greening: The Department has a mechanism in accordance with best practice developed through for staff to donate via payroll giving (Give as You Earn) close co-operation with the Foreign and Commonwealth and this arrangement is published to all staff via the Office and the Ministry of Defence. internal staff intranet. Developing Countries: Genetically Modified Organisms WORK AND PENSIONS Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much her Department Crisis Loans gave to support the development of genetically- modified organisms in the latest period for which Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for figures are available. [174066] Work and Pensions (1) what proportion of the money allocated for crisis loans from local authorities was Justine Greening: No DFID funding is specifically distributed in the first two quarters of this year; allocated to genetically modified organisms. [174085] 153W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 154W

(2) what assessment he has made of the criteria used Esther McVey: A quarterly breakdown of the number by local authorities for determining eligibility for crisis of Work Choice referrals up to 30 June 2013 can be loans; [174086] found in the following publication: (3) if he will monitor the administration of crisis https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ loans by local authorities. [174090] attachment_data/file/229350/work-choice-statistics-august- 2013.pdf Steve Webb: Crisis loans are not administered by local authorities. From 1 April 2013, crisis loans were Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for abolished, and funding transferred to English local Work and Pensions how many people are currently authorities and the Scottish and Welsh governments, to engaged in Work Choice. [174074] deliver new local welfare provision. The new provision allows local authorities to deliver tailored, flexible support Esther McVey: Information on how many people are to those in greatest need based on detailed knowledge currently engaged in Work Choice is not available. Data of the issues they are facing in their communities. This are collected on the number of people who start Work funding is now therefore better targeted than the previous, Choice and the number of people who subsequently more remote, centralised system. achieve a job outcome. This can be found up to 30 June 2013 in the following publication. The money was allocated based on the percentage of spend of the discretionary Social Fund budget in a local https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/229350/work-choice-statistics-august- authority area between April 2011 and September 2011. 2013.pdf That was the most up-to-date information the Government had on Social Fund spend by local authority area at the Housing Benefit time of allocation. Further details are available on our website at: Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130513091402/ Work and Pensions what performance targets he has http://dwp.gov.uk/local-authority-staff/social-fund-reform/ established for local authorities on the processing and http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130513091402/ payment of housing benefit. [174075] http://dwp.gov.uk/docs/social-fund-settlement-funding- allocation.pdf Steve Webb: The Department for Work and Pensions We are committed to conducting a review of how does not set housing benefit targets for local authorities, local authorities are operating their schemes during who are themselves responsible for the administration 2014. This will be based on a sample of local authorities. of housing benefit. However, the Department does publish average speed of processing statistics and officials Employment and Support Allowance may contact a local authority if they have concerns about its processing times. Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for The average speed of processing statistics can be Work and Pensions whether someone who is awaiting a found here: mandatory reconsideration on an application for https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/housing-benefit- employment support allowance and who possesses a and-council-tax-benefit-statistics-on-speed-of-processing--2 note from a doctor stating they are unfit for work is eligible to receive jobseeker’s allowance; and what Jobcentre Plus guidance his Department has issued to jobcentres to cover such a circumstance. [174092] Mr Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what training is available for Esther McVey: Claimants cannot receive employment Jobcentre Plus advisers on autism. [173874] and support allowance and jobseeker’s allowance at the same time. Where a claimant has been found fit for Esther McVey: Jobcentre Plus advisers have access to work following a Work Capability Assessment, the decision a comprehensive learning programme to support them is binding on the decision maker for all benefits, including in dealing with claimants with varied health conditions jobseeker’s allowance. Where such decisions are made, which includes autism. This learning focuses on raising the Department advises the claimant and the GP that awareness of the individual’s personal circumstances medical evidence is no longer required, as benefit entitlement and recognises that health conditions, such as autism, is based on a functional assessment carried out by a can affect individuals in different, ways. Staff also have health care professional, rather than on the basis of a fit access to a suite of guidance and specialist sources of note from the doctor. Consequently a person with a fit help including the Hidden Impairment Toolkit and the note could be eligible for jobseeker’s allowance if the ‘Employment Health Conditions Disability Guide note conditions of entitlement are met. for Advisers’, which provides practical advice and guidance DWP advisers have the flexibility to tailor conditionality on how best to support individuals with autistic spectrum to suit a claimants circumstances and appropriate guidance disorders into employment. is issued to DWP staff in Jobcentres. Disability employment advisers receive additional learning appropriate to this specialist area. Their training Employment Schemes: Disability has been designed in conjunction with specialist DWP occupational psychologists to enable them to provide Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for effective support to people with particular complex Work and Pensions how many people have been needs and includes case studies relating to autism to referred to Work Choice in each month since it ensure the key points are communicated effectively in commenced. [174073] the learning. 155W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 156W

Universal Credit Free Schools

Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for George Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of Education whether governors of free schools are the effect of withdrawing housing benefit protection individually and collectively responsible for the under universal credit on (a) rent arrears and (b) the repayment of false financial claims made by the school average length of a claim for people recently of which they are governors. [173397] unemployed. [173915] Steve Webb: No assessment is available, as there is no Mr Timpson: Free schools are a type of academy direct link between the housing benefit system and trust and the model for academy governance was established universal credit. at the start of the academies programme in September The 13-week protection rule in housing benefit allows 2002. Individual governors can only be held liable for a more generous level of support for people who have the repayment of false financial claims made by the not claimed in the preceding 12 months and who could school if it is proven that they have breached their afford their rent when they took on the commitment. It duties as either directors or trustees of the academy was designed to provide protection for people on higher trust. incomes who lose their jobs, allowing them a buffer period before their rent support is reduced to the local George Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for housing allowance level. Education what steps his Department takes to monitor Introducing such a provision in universal credit would the finances and expenditures of free schools. [173464] benefit only those whose earnings when in work were high enough to lift them clear of Universal credit. Mr Timpson: The Department for Education has Lower-income workers would not be eligible for this established an accountability system for academy trusts, protection if they lost their job. Further it would be including those operating free schools, which reflects incompatible with universal credit design principles, their status as companies, charities and public bodies. and would add complexity and administrative costs to The accountability system for academy trusts is more the calculation process. robust than it is for maintained schools. Academy trusts are constituted as companies limited by guarantee, so are subject to the full rigour of the EDUCATION Companies Act. This means that, unlike maintained schools, academies are required to file independently Children: Day Care audited accounts. Because academy trusts are constituted as companies their governors are also company directors. Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for This means that academy governors are subject to the Education (1) what the purpose is of his Department’s full range of statutory and fiduciary duties required of survey of ratios in nurseries and other childcare a company director. Academies are also constituted as settings; what the cost is of conducting the survey; how charitable trusts. This means that the governors of long it will run for; and when the results of the survey academy trusts have the additional responsibility of will be published; [174103] also being charitable trustees and therefore are also (2) what recent discussions (a) he, (b) Ministers in subject to the full range of statutory and fiduciary his Department and (c) officials in his Department duties which apply to trustees. have had with the Deputy Prime Minister and his office Academy trusts must also comply with the requirements about his Department’s survey of ratios in nurseries of the funding agreement and the academies financial and other childcare settings. [174102] handbook. Under this system, trusts are required to Elizabeth Truss: In 2008, ratios were changed so that provide the following returns to the Education Funding nurseries could have 13 children aged three and over per Agency (EFA): annual financial statements audited by adult when led by a teacher. ‘More Affordable Childcare’, a registered auditor and an audited report on regularity published in July 2013, said that the Government would of expenditure and income; statements from the trust’s “continue to encourage providers to employ graduates, accounting officer on regularity, propriety and value for by making greater use of the existing 1:13 ratio for money; a budget forecast return; a financial management three- and four-year-olds where there is a teacher, Early and governance self-assessment (provided shortly after Years Professional, or other suitably-qualified graduate an academy opens) and an electronic accounts return. working directly with the children”. We want this flexibility The EFA adopts a risk based approach to reviewing to be used more widely because evidence shows that these returns, to provide assurance over the regularity teacher-led provision improves outcomes for children. of expenditure and income and to monitor financial The survey was designed to inform our understanding health. Action is taken in response to issues or concerns about what barriers might be preventing early years raised by these returns, as necessary. providers from using this existing flexibility. There was The financial viability and resilience of free school no additional, external cost to this activity beyond the proposals is also tested at the application stage. During normal use of existing departmental resources. The pre-opening, free school projects are required to account survey was posted on a website for just under a week fully for the pre-opening grants provided by the Department. and has now concluded. As income and costs are clarified during the pre-opening The Department for Education continues to work stage, revised financial projections are scrutinised prior closely with the Deputy Prime Minister’s office and to the Secretary of State entering into a funding agreement others across the Government’s child care reform agenda. with the academy trust to operate the school. 157W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 158W

GCSE Pupils: Disadvantaged

Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether people who did not achieve a Education how many secondary school students sitting GCSE grade A*-C in (a) English and (b) mathematics GCSEs were eligible for free school meals in each year by the end of Year 11 will be expected to have done so since 2004; what number and proportion of such by the age of 18 as part of 16-19 study programmes. students were entered for the EBac suite of subjects, [173821] both as a number and as a percentage of free school meal students; how many and what proportion of such Elizabeth Truss: From September 2013, students aged students achieved grades A*-C in EBac subjects; and 16 to 19 who have not yet achieved a GCSE grade C or what proportion of such students entered for the EBac above in English and mathematics by age 16 must achieved the required grades. [174099] continue to work towards achieving these qualifications. This requirement will be made a condition of post-16 student places being funded from September 2014. Mr Laws: The following table provides information Students who are not ready to retake their GCSEs on the number and percentage of pupils who were immediately may take other approved qualifications to entered for and achieved the EBacc by free school meal help equip them for their GCSEs. eligibility in 2010/11 and 2011/12. The table also shows the number and percentage of pupils who achieved an The Government announced this requirement in July A*-C in each of the EBacc subjects by free school meal 2012.1 The Education and Funding Agency has published eligibility. guidance on 16 to 19 funding, including the English and mathematics conditions of funding.2 It is not possible to provide information prior to 1http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130401151715/ 2010/11 as this would incur disproportionate costs. The https:/www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/ answer is based on the standard count of pupils at the publicationDetail/Page1/DFE-00069-2012 end of key stage 4 as that gives a cumulative picture of 2http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/f/ the attainment for a whole cohort as opposed to those funding%20review%20june%2013%20v4.pdf who sat GCSEs in a particular year.

Pupils1 achieving the English Baccalaureate at the end of Key Stage 4 by pupils eligible for free school meals and those pupils achieving the components of the English Baccalaureate. Years: 2010/11 to 2011/12 (final)2.Coverage: England, state-funded schools (including Academies and CTCs) Of those entering Percentage of Number of pupils Percentage of the percentage Number of pupils pupils entering the achieving the pupils achieving the achieving the Number of eligible entering the English English English English English pupils1 Baccalaureate Baccalaureate Baccalaureate Baccalaureate Baccalaureate

2011/12 FSM 80,194 7,345 9.2 4,047 5.0 55.1 All other pupils3 481,111 122,272 25.4 86,630 18.0 70.9 All pupils4 561,305 129,617 23.1 90,677 16.2 70.0

2010/11 FSM 79,168 6,272 7.9 3,373 4.3 53.8 All other pupils3 487,759 116,252 23.8 83,717 17.2 72.0 All pupils4 566,927 122,524 21.6 87,090 15.4 71.1

Number of pupils achieving the components of the English Baccalaureate: English Mathematics Sciences History or Geography Languages

2011/12 FSM 36,290 38,479 20,098 11,572 10,866 All other pupils3 338,094 350,694 249,981 176,468 143,611 All pupils4 374,384 389,173 270,079 188,040 154,477

2010/11 FSM 36,372 33,821 18,403 10,513 10,157 All other pupils3 353,278 335,656 243,475 173,332 143,934 All pupils4 389,650 369,477 261,878 183,845 154,091

Percentage of pupils achieving the components of the English Baccalaureate: English Mathematics Sciences History or Geography Languages

2011/12 FSM 45.3 48.0 25.1 14.4 13.5 All other pupils3 70.3 72.9 52.0 36.7 29.8 All pupils4 66.7 69.3 48.1 33.5 27.5 159W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 160W

Percentage of pupils achieving the components of the English Baccalaureate: English Mathematics Sciences History or Geography Languages

2010/11 FSM 45.9 42.7 23.2 13.3 12.8 All other pupils3 72.4 68.8 49.9 35.5 29.5 All pupils4 68.7 65.2 46.2 32.4 27.2 1 Number of pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 in each academic year. 2 From 2009/10 iGCSEs, accredited at time of publication, have been counted as GCSE equivalents and also as English and mathematics GCSEs. 3 Includes pupils not eligible for free school meals and for whom free school meal eligibility was unclassified or could not be determined. 4 Includes pupils for whom free school meal eligibility could not be determined. Source: National Pupil Database

Roads: Safety Mr Timpson: The Department for Education is represented at official level on the Department of Health’s Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Autism Strategy Programme Board and gives regular Education if he will expand the teaching of road safety updates on the proposed changes to the special educational and the Highway Code in schools as part of the needs (SEN) system, particularly as they affect the national curriculum. [173582] transition from children’s to adult services. The most recent meeting of the board was on 22 October and the Elizabeth Truss: Road safety and the Highway Code Department for Education attended. Officials from the two are topics which schools may include in personal, social, Departments also meet regularly to discuss the review health and economic education (PSHE) which is a and the implications for it of the SEN clauses in the non-statutory subject in a school’s curriculum. PSHE Children and Families Bill. equips children with the knowledge and skills to make safe and informed decisions. Teachers are well-placed to The Department for Education will continue to work judge which topics to cover, tailored to the needs of with the Department of Health to ensure that any their pupils and in the context of the school’s overall revision of the Autism Strategy properly reflects the programme. proposed changes to the special educational needs system.

Schools: Standards Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what recent assessment he has made of the Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for provision of needs assessments for parents or carers of Education what comparative assessment his disabled children and the availability of support for Department has made of the effect on (a) pupil such carers. [173918] progress and (b) staff morale of (i) performance related pay and (ii) other methods to achieve and Mr Timpson: The Department for Education have maintain high quality teaching and leadership in considered the availability of needs assessments and schools; and if he will make a statement. [173645] support for parent-carers of disabled children, working with other Government Departments. The Department Mr Laws: The evidence is clear that having the highest is satisfied that there is a strong framework of support quality teachers in the classroom gives pupils the best in place. There already exists legislation to assess parent- chances of achieving their full educational potential. carers’ needs within the Children Act 1989 in so far as it Analysis of data from England has shown that being meets the needs of individual children in need. Local taught by a high quality teacher rather than a low authorities can provide services to the family members quality one adds 0.425 of a GCSE point per subject to a 1 of a child in need with a view to safeguarding or pupil’s attainment . We have a range of policies in place promoting the child’s welfare. designed to improve teacher quality and we are constantly assessing the impact that these policies are having. The Government has invested significantly in support for parent-carers of disabled children. This includes For instance, the reforms we have introduced to ensure committing over £800 million for local authorities to that the brightest and best new graduates see teaching invest in short breaks for both the disabled children and as an attractive profession mean that we now have the their carers between April 2011 and March 2015 through highest ever recorded proportion (71%) of new teachers unringfenced grants, backed by new duties introduced with a first or upper-second class degree. in 2011. The reforms outlined in the Children and Our reform of teachers’ pay is giving schools greater Families Bill, along with wider reforms in education flexibility to pay the best teachers more and so reward and health, will strengthen the current system further good performance. The first pay decisions under the for children and young people with special educational new arrangements will not take place until autumn needs (SEN), including those who are disabled, and give 2014. much greater, more joined-up support to parent-carers. 1 http://www.bris.ac.uk/cmpo/publications/papers/2009/wp212.pdf

Special Educational Needs Teachers: Training

Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what recent discussions he has had with the Education what risk assessment (a) his Department Secretary of State for Health on ensuring that changes and (b) the National College of Teaching and to the special educational needs system are reflected in Leadership made of the implications for teacher supply the outcomes of the Autism Strategy Review. [173873] of an expansion in School Direct places. [174100] 161W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 162W

Mr Laws: Based on the estimated number of trainees NCTL does not have a target for the number of needed, the National College for Teaching and Leadership applications to ITT places. (NCTL) allocates teacher training places to accredited The ITT census 2013/14 will be released on 26 November. initial teacher training (ITT) providers and schools involved in the School Direct scheme (which have to be UK Membership of EU partnered with an accredited ITT provider). Each year, there are approximately 45,000 new teachers Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for in state schools. Of these, around half (23,500) are Education if he will make an assessment of the costs newly qualified teachers; a third (14,700) qualified earlier; and benefits of a decision for the UK to leave the EU and a fifth (8,200) are returning to teaching. We do not in his Department’s area of responsibility; and if he assume that all trainees will complete their training will make a statement. [173739] successfully and/or teach immediately in a state school, Matthew Hancock: I refer the hon. Member to the and that is built into our estimation of places needed. reply given to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton This year, as we do every year, we have allocated ITT North East (Emma Reynolds) on 29 January 2013, places above the estimated number of trainees required. Official Report, column 709W.The Department has not This helps us to ensure we train enough teachers, taking made any plans for the UK to leave the EU. account of the likely level, of recruitment in each subject. The allocation number is not a target and should not be regarded as one. If it is not reached, that does not mean HEALTH that there will be a shortage in trainees. School Direct is a response to what schools have Accident and Emergency Departments asked for: more influence and control over the way that teachers are trained. Schools’ enthusiasm for school-led Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for provision has been demonstrated in the increasing interest Health what the (a) mean and (b) median wait in type for School Direct places—schools have requested 17,700 1 accident and emergency departments was in each School Direct places this year compared with 9,400 last quarter of the last six years. [174064] year. Last year NCTL was able to grant all requests for School Direct places. This year, however, we have allocated Jane Ellison: The information from April 2008 to 15,400 of the 17,700 of the places that schools have March 2012 is shown in the following table. Information asked for. prior to this is not available. Information for 2012-13 is not yet available. On 31 October, NCTL wrote to lead schools and ITT providers (school-centred initial teacher training and Mean and median duration to departure of type 1 accident and emergency higher education institutions) to inform them of their (A&E) departments in minutes from April 2008 to March 2012 Mean duration to Median duration to ITT allocations. Institutions will confirm the number of departure (minutes) departure (minutes) places they want in the coming weeks. NCTL will then publish the final allocations by lead school and ITT 2008-09 provider to inform applicants’ decisions. Q1 130.6 119 Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Q2 130.0 119 Education how many initial teacher training Q3 143.0 131 enrolments have been made by (a) mode, (b) subject Q4 146.5 130 and (c) provider in the latest period for which data is available; what estimate he has made of the number of 2009-10 multiple applications within that figure; and what Q1 139.6 129 proportion of such applications are (i) over and (ii) Q2 137.9 127 under National College for Teaching and Leadership Q3 148.1 137 targets. [174105] Q4 148.3 136 Mr Laws: The latest period for which initial teacher training (ITT) enrolment data are available is for the 2010-11 2012/13 academic year and can be found in the ITT Q1 142.2 133 Census 2012/131. A copy has been placed in the House Q2 143.7 134 Library. The ITT census 2012/13 published data does Q3 153.9 143 not include individual provider level information. The Q4 158.1 143 data refers to new entrants and does not include applications data. 2011-12 1 Available at: Q1 149.7 141 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/initial-teacher- Q2 146.1 137 training-trainee-number-census Q3 153.8 144 In 2012/13, applicants were allowed to make four Q4 158.2 147 applications through the Graduate Teacher Training Source: Registry (GTTR) application portal for provider places, Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre of which only one application could be active at any one Notes: 1. Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity time (note that a small number of providers chose not in the independent sector. to use this system). There were no restrictions on the 2. Duration to departure: The total amount of time spent in minutes in the number of applications an applicant could submit for A&E department. This is calculated as the difference in time from arrival at A&E to the time when the patient is discharged from A&E care. This includes School Direct in 2012/13 as applicants applied directly being admitted to hospital, died in the department, discharged with no follow to the school in the pilot year. up or discharged—referred to another specialist department. 163W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 164W

Autism Jane Ellison: The Department has not undertaken such an assessment and NHS England has advised that Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for no assessment has been made in that organisation. Health when his Department will conduct its second The structure and function of multi-disciplinary teams review of the adult autism strategy. [173869] (MDTs) and the role of the Cancer Nurse Specialist in care is subject to the National Institute for Health and Norman Lamb: The Government is currently reviewing Care Excellence’s Improving Outcomes Guidance and the 2010 Adult Autism Strategy for England. The review its implementation is assured through the cancer peer is an opportunity for us to assess whether the objectives review process. All MDTs have to submit evidence of of the strategy remain fundamentally the right ones, to compliance with the Improving Outcomes Guidance to take an honest look at what progress is being achieved NHS Improving Quality, the new NHS improvement by local authorities and the national health service, and body, and MDT compliance rates are publicly available consider what should happen to continue to make progress. through the National Peer Review programme website We will issue a report after the end of November 2013 and the My Cancer Treatment website. which summarises the investigative stage of the review and revise the strategy as necessary by the end of March Clinical Commissioning Groups 2014. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Steve Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much funding each clinical commissioning group if he will ensure that the mandate for Health Education has received for 2013-14. [174069] England includes reference to professional training needs relating to autism. [173887] Dr Poulter: Clinical commissioning group allocations for 2013-14 have been placed in the Library. Dr Poulter: Health Education England (HEE) is required to have regard to national outcomes and priorities when Congenital Abnormalities carrying out its core functions of workforce planning and the commissioning of education, training and Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health development activity. what proportion of children are diagnosed at birth with The Government’s mandate to HEE will be reviewed congenital disease. [174091] for 2014-15 to ensure that the objectives are current and meaningful to the needs of our health and care systems. Dr Poulter: This information is not collected centrally. Data from the British Isles Network of Congenital Breast Cancer Anomaly Registers (BINOCAR) Report 2011 suggests that the birth prevalence of congenital anomalies is approximately 2.5%. This figure includes major structural Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for and chromosomal anomalies but excludes minor anomalies Health what discussions his Department has had with and congenital metabolic diseases. The report is based the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence on six regional registers covering 36% births of England on how the advanced breast cancer: diagnosis and and Wales and is available at: treatment guideline can be updated to include recent www.binocar.org/content/ evidence on the effects of undertaking biopsies from Annual%20report%202011_FINAL_040913.pdf breast cancer patients with recurrent or metastatic The BINOCAR report states that one third of congenital breast cancer. [173453] anomalies are diagnosed at or following birth and around three quarters of affected babies are live born. Norman Lamb: We have had no such discussions. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence Disability Aids: Children (NICE) is responsible for developing independent guidance for the national health service. NICE keeps its published Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for guidance under review to take account of the latest Health what representations he has received from (a) evidence, and any stakeholder can draw NICE’S attention charities, (b) individuals and (c) hon. Members to new evidence that they believe it should consider. regarding paediatric wheelchair provision in the last 12 NICE is currently conducting a rapid update to its months. [173644] clinical guideline on the diagnosis and treatment of advanced breast cancer to take into account new literature Norman Lamb: Since November 2012, the Department focusing on the safety and benefit of exercise for breast has received six items of correspondence about paediatric cancer-related lymphoedema. The update to the guideline wheelchair provision. One was from a charity, four were is currently planned for publication in March 2014. from individuals and one was from an hon. Member.

Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for Disability: Children Health (1) what recent assessment his Department has made of compliance by NHS England to the breast Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for cancer quality standard statements relating to multi- Health what recent assessment he has made of the disciplinary teams and cancer nurse specialists; [173454] adequacy of support for parents or carers of disabled (2) what steps NHS England is taking to monitor children; and if he will discuss with the Secretary of the implementation of the Breast Cancer Quality State for Education steps to improve assessments of Standard. [173485] these carers’ needs. [173917] 165W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 166W

Norman Lamb: The Under-Secretary of State for Influenza vaccine uptake for those aged under 65 years falling in a clinical risk- Education, the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich group (Mr Timpson), and I have recently had discussions on Vaccine uptake (percentage) this issue in the context of both the Care Bill and the England Cumbria Teaching PCT Children and Families Bill. 2010-11 50.4 52.7 Policy on supporting disabled children and their families 2011-12 51.6 60.3 lies clearly with the Department for Education. This 2012-13 51.3 60.2 includes policy in relation to parent carers of disabled children. A key principle of the Children Act 1989 is Influenza vaccine uptake for all pregnant women that children are best looked after within their families. Vaccine uptake (percentage) Under the Act, local authorities are required to provide England Cumbria Teaching PCT services for children in need for the purposes of safeguarding and promoting their welfare. Statutory guidance makes 2010-11 38.0 42.0 it clear that in assessments, local authorities should also 2011-12 27.4 36.9 look at the parent or carer’s capacity to meet the needs 2012-13 40.3 29.5 Source: of the disabled child. Public Health England influenza Immunisation Vaccine Uptake Monitoring programme. Genetics: Screening Mental Health Services Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will publish the names of the members Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for of NHS England’s Molecular Diagnostic Testing Health (1) what steps his Department is taking to Group. [173381] ensure that people with mental health problems who are victims of crime are properly supported; [173403] Jane Ellison: The information will be published on (2) what assessment he has made of the implications the NHS England website in due course. NHS England for his Department of the conclusions and will provide this information when the list of names is recommendations of the 2013 report from Mind, finalised and a copy will be placed in the Library. Victim Support and others entitled At Risk, Yet Homeopathy Dismissed: The criminal victimisation of people with mental health problems; and if he will meet the authors of that report. [173482] Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his policy on the promotion of Norman Lamb: The Department agrees that mental homoeopathy through the NHS Choices website is. health service users are much more likely to be the [173639] victims rather than the perpetrators of crime and this is why it welcomed the report “At risk, yet dismissed: The Jane Ellison: The purpose of homeopathy information criminal victimisation of people with mental-health on NHS Choices is to allow the public to make informed problems” and its call for a system wide response to decisions, about their health care. meet the needs of victims of crime with mental health NHS Choices regularly reviews the content on the needs. NHS Choices website to ensure the information is up to The Government has conducted a review of the date as well as neutral, factual and objective. The content victim’s services, including the Code of Practice for on homeopathy was updated for greater clarity, particularly Victims of .Crime to ensure that all victims receive the about the underlying evidence. most appropriate support throughout the criminal justice Influenza: Vaccination system process. The Code will provide an enhanced service for three categories of victim: victims of the most serious crime; the most persistently targeted; and John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for vulnerable or intimidated victims. Health what estimate he has made of the take-up of the influenza vaccine among those entitled to a free The Department is working with the Ministry of vaccination in (a) England, (b) Cumbria and (c) Justice to establish ways in which victims of crime with Barrow and Furness constituency in each of the last mental health problems can receive the most appropriate three years. [173923] support. Departmental officials will be meeting with the authors Jane Ellison: The information requested is not collected of the report and Ministry of Justice officials. in the format requested at a national and constituency level. Data from the Cumbria Teaching primary care Mental Health Services: Young People trust (PCT), which existed until April 2013, has been used to estimate the uptake of the influenza vaccine in Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Cumbria and is available in the following tables: Health how many under 18 year olds have been Influenza vaccine uptake for those aged 65 years and over admitted to adult mental health wards in each of the Vaccine uptake (percentage) last five years. [173870] England Cumbria Teaching PCT Norman Lamb: We do not hold the information in the 2010-11 72.8 73.9 form requested. 2011-12 74.0 75.5 From 2007-08 until the end of the previous financial 2012-13 73.4 76.1 year (2010-11), the Department collected statistics under 167W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 168W the NHS Operating Framework’s Vital Signs Monitoring Number Returns. This showed that the number of bed days for under 18-year-olds on adult psychiatric wards were as Total 24,112 follows: From 2011-12, the Health and Social Care Information Bed days Centre has been reporting figures based on the Mental Health Minimum Dataset, and publishing this in their 2007-08 17,093 quarterly publication Mental Health Trusts’ Service 2008-09 12,687 Performance Indicator 10. This is defined as the number ¦2009-10 6,072 of bed days for children and adolescents on adult 2010-11 5,166 psychiatric wards during the reporting period. This has no exclusion criteria so any patients on an adult ward which has been set aside for CAMHS patients would be This data collection on children on adult wards referred included in. the count. The data for 2011-12 are therefore only to those patients under the care of a psychiatric not directly comparable with those for the period 2007-11. specialist. It excluded those patients who were in a part of an adult psychiatric ward specifically set aside to Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for meet the needs of Child and Adolescent Mental Health Health how many under 18 year olds have accessed Services (CAMHS) patients. cognitive behavioural therapy in each of the last five Data from the Health and Social Care Information years. [173871] Centre shows that the following number of bed days in Norman Lamb: These data are not collected centrally adult specialist mental health facilities were spent by by the Department. patients under 18 years of age in 2011-12 in each region: Midwives Number Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health North East 949 how many midwives were working in the NHS (a) in North West 6,686 Greater Manchester and (b) nationally in (i) 2010, (ii) Yorkshire and the Humber 490 2011, (iii) 2012 and (iv) 2013. [173806] East Midlands 5,939 West Midlands 1,071 Dr Poulter: The information requested is included in East of England 4,336 the table. London 2,562 It should be noted that we are unable to accurately South East Coast 192 map organisation level workforce figures to the Greater South Central 1,564 Manchester area, but the individual organisations listed South West 323 are those which cover the hon. Member’s constituency area.

NHS hospital and community health services: Registered Midwives in England, the North West Strategic Health Authority area and each specified organisation as at 30 September each specified year1 Full time equivalent 2010 2011 2012 20131

England 20,126 20,519 20,935 21,443 Of which:

North West Strategic Health 2,944 2,913 2,905 2,960 Authority area Of which:

Central Manchester University 211 177 245 267 Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust Pennine Acute Hospitals NHS 344 361 347 339 Trust 1 2010-12 figures are from the annual Non-Medical Workforce Census as at 30 September each year. 2013 figures are from the Provisional Monthly Workforce Census as at 31 July 2013. Notes: 1. Full time equivalent figures are rounded to the nearest whole number. 2. As a consequence of TCS (Transforming Community Services) midwifery services may have transferred between local acute trusts, which may affect time series data for organisations. Monthly data: As from 21 July 2010 the Health and Social Care Information Centre has published provisional monthly NHS workforce data. As expected with provisional statistics, some figures may be revised from month to month as issues are uncovered and resolved. The monthly workforce data is not directly comparable with the annual workforce census; it only includes those staff on the Electronic Staff Record (ESR) (i.e. it does not include Primary care staff or Bank staff). There are also new methods of presenting data (headcount methodology is different and there is now a role count). This information is available from September 2009 onwardsatthe following website: www.hscic.gov.uk Data Quality: The Health and Social Care Information Centre seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing the data. Methods are continually being updated to improve data quality where changes impact on figures already published. This is assessed but unless it is significant at national level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is footnoted in relevant analyses. Sources: 1. Health and Social Care Information Centre Provisional Monthly Workforce Statistics 2. Health and Social Care Information Centre Non-Medical Workforce Census 169W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 170W

Musculoskeletal Disorders Public health allocation to local authorities for 2013-14 and 2014-15 £000 Office for National Statistics Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health local authorities (ONS LA) ONS local 2013-14 2014-15 how Public Health England plans to incorporate the Code authority name allocation allocation health and wellbeing of people with musculoskeletal conditions into its work-streams and framework for E08000004 Oldham 13,559 14,915 E08000005 Rochdale 14,256 14,777 health and wellbeing. [173443] E08000006 Salford 17,075 18,777 Norman Lamb: The Global Burden of Disease study E08000007 Stockport 12,360 12,834 showed the significant burden of musculoskeletal conditions E08000008 Tameside 11,454 12,600 on the nation’s health. Public Health England (PHE), E08000009 Trafford 10,171 10,456 working with local government, NHS England, the E08000010 Wiqan 23,020 23,665 Department and others, is developing a Health and E08000011 Knowsley 15,929 16,375 Wellbeing Framework for England to develop a common E08000012 Liverpool 40,308 41,436 understanding of the public’s health, in order to outline E08000013 St. Helens 12,680 13,035 contributors to poor wellbeing and the actions we can E08000014 Sefton 19,408 19,952 take to address them. E08000015 Wirral 25,720 26,440 E10000006 Cumbria 14,176 15,594 PHE is focusing on the prevention of musculoskeletal E10000017 Lancashire 57,991 59,801 disease and injury through its work to promote physical E06000010 Kingston upon 21,945 22,559 activity, tackle obesity, reduce smoking and improve Hull, City of workplace health. E06000011 East Ridinq of 8,341 9,175 Yorkshire NHS: Finance E06000012 North East 9,700 9,971 Lincolnshire E06000013 North 8,071 8,464 Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Lincolnshire. how much funding each local authority has received for E06000014 York 6,641 7,305 health provision in each year since 2010. [174068] E08000016 Barnsley 13,571 14,243 E08000017 Doncaster 19,648 20,198 Jane Ellison: A ring-fenced public health grant of E08000018 Rotherham 13,790 14,176 £5.46 billion for 2013-14 and 2014-15 was announced E08000019 Sheffield 29,665 30,748 on 10 January 2013 to support upper tier and unitary E08000032 Bradford 31,545 34,699 local authorities in carrying out their new public health E08000033 Calderdale 9,829 10,679 functions from April 2013. E08000034 Kirklees 22,603 23,527 The following table sets out the public health allocations E08000035 Leeds 36,855 40,540 to upper tier and unitary local authorities for 2013-14 E08000036 Wakefield 20,230 20,797 and 2014-15: E10000023 North Yorkshire 19,021 19,732 E06000015 Derby 13,167 14,484 Public health allocation to local authorities for 2013-14 and 2014-15 E06000016 Leicester 19,995 21,995 £000 E06000017 Rutland 1,044 1,073 Office for National Statistics local authorities (ONS LA) ONS local 2013-14 2014-15 E06000018. Nottingham 27,081 27,839 Code authority name allocation allocation E10000007 Derbyshire 34,680 35,651 E10000018 Leicestershire 20,206 21,863 E06000001 Hartlepool 8,255 8,486 E10000019 Lincolnshire 27,542 28,506 E06000002 Middlesbrough 15,932 16,378 E10000021 Northamptonshire 26,839 29,523 E06000003 Redcar and 10,620 10,917 . Cleveland E10000024 Nottinghamshire 35,135 36,119 E06000004 Stockton-on- 12,711 13,067 Tees E06000019 Herefordshire, 7,753 7,970 County of E06000005 Darlington 6,989 7,184 E06000020 Telford and 10,616 10,913 E06000047 County Durham 44,533 45,780 Wrekin E06000048 Northumberland 13,043 13,408 E06000021 Stoke-on-Trent 19,690 20,242 E08000020 Gateshead 15,401 15,832 E06000051 Shropshire 8,948 9,843 E08000021 Newcastle upon 20,721 21,301 E08000025 Birmingham 78,636 80,838 Tyne E08000026 Coventry 17,832 19,615 E08000022 North Tyneside 10,417 10,807 E08000027 Dudley 18,457 18,974 E08000023 South Tyneside 12,565 12,917 E08000028 Sandwell 20,816 21,805 E08000024 Sunderland 20,656 21,234 E08000029 Solihull 9,635 9,905 E06000006 Halton 8,510 8,749 E08000030 Walsall 14,984 15,827 E06000007 Warrinqton 10,052 10,439 E08000031 Wolverhampton 18,770 19,296 E06000008 Blackburn with 12,776 13,134 Darwen E10000028 Staffordshire 32,322 33,313 E06000009 Blackpool 17,457 17,946 E10000031 Warwickshire 21,216 21,810 E06000049 Cheshire East 13,762 14,274 E10000034 Worcestershire 25,806 26,528 E06000050 Cheshire West 13,371 13,889 E06000031 Peterborough 8,446 9,291 and Chester E06000032 Luton 11,877 13,065 E08000001 Bolton 18,115 18,906 E06000033 Southend-on- 7,327 8,060 E08000002 Bury 9,147 9,619 Sea E08000003 Manchester 40,105 44,116 E06000034 Thurrock 7,417 7,624 171W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 172W

Public health allocation to local authorities for 2013-14 and 2014-15 Public health allocation to local authorities for 2013-14 and 2014-15 £000 £000 Office for National Statistics Office for National Statistics local authorities (ONS LA) ONS local 2013-14 2014-15 local authorities (ONS LA) ONS local 2013-14 2014-15 Code authority name allocation allocation Code authority name allocation allocation

E06000055 Bedford 6,676 7,343 E10000025 Oxfordshire 25,264 26,086 E06000056 Central 9,873 10,149 E10000030 Surrey 23,237 25,561 Bedfordshire E10000032 West Sussex 26,698 27,445 E10000003 Cambridgeshire 21,230 22,299 E06000022 Bath and North 7,183 7,384 E10000012 Essex 48,874 50,242 East Somerset E10000015 Hertfordshire 34,220 37,642 E06000023 Bristol, City of 27,313 29,122 E10000020 Norfolk 29,798 30,633 E06000024 North Somerset 7,381 7,593 E10000029 Suffolk 25,572 26,289 E06000025 South 6,677 7,345 E09000001 City of London 1,651 1,698 Gloucestershire E09000002 Barking and 12,921 14,213 E06000026 Plymouth 11,160’ 12,276 Dagenham E06000027 Torbay 7,150 7,351 E09000003 Barnet. 13,799 14,335 E06000028 Bournemouth 7,542 8,296 E09000004 Bexley 6,886 7,574 E06000029 Poole 5,892 6,057 E09000005 Brent 18,335 18,848 E06000030 Swindon 7,891 8,680 E09000006 Bromley 12,601 12,954 E06000052 Cornwall 17,839 18,339 E09000007 Camden 25,649 26,368 E06000053 Isles of Scilly 71 73 E09000008 Croydon 18,312 18,825 E06000054 Wiltshire 13,261 14,587 E09000009 Ealing 21,376 21,974 E10000008 Devon 20,748 22,060 E09000010 Enfield 12,961 14,257 E10000009 Dorset 12,538 12,889 E09000011 Greenwich 18,277 19,061 E10000013 Gloucestershire 21,126 21,793 E09000012 Hackney 29,005 29,818 E10000027 Somerset 14,103 15,513 E09000013 Hammersmith 20,287 20,855 and Fulham England 2,661,794 2,793,775 E09000014 Harinqey 17,587 18,189 E09000015 Harrow 8,874 9,146 Sepsis E09000016 Havering 8,833 9,717 E09000017 Hillingdon 15,281 15,709 E09000018 Hounslow 12,804 14,084 Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health E09000019 Islington 24,737 25,429 if he will implement a national awareness campaign E09000020 Kensington and 20,636 21,214 surrounding early diagnosis of sepsis. [173999] Chelsea E09000021 Kingston upon 9,049 9,302 Dr Poulter: The Department has already taken steps Thames to raise awareness of sepsis. This includes setting objectives E09000022 Lambeth 25,438 26,437 in the NHS mandate requiring the national health E09000023 Lewisham 19,541 20,088 service to provide a high quality of patient care and E09000024 Merton 8,985 9,236 ensuring that the NHS outcomes framework for 2013-14 E09000025 Newham 23,738 26,112 includes patient safety outcomes and corresponding E09000026 Redbridge 10,374 11,411 indicators. E09000027 Richmond upon 7,676 7,891 Thames Furthermore, we understand that NHS England is E09000028 Southwark 21,809 22,946 also collaborating with Dr Ron Daniels, who was E09000029 Sutton 8,384 8,619 instrumental in developing the “Sepsis Six” protocols E09000030 Tower Hamlets 31,382 32,261 for treating sepsis, to embed awareness of these protocols E09000031 Waltham Forest 11,161 12,277 in NHS practice. The protocols set out six key steps in E09000032 Wandsworth 24,738 25,431 the effective diagnosis and treatment of sepsis. E09000033 Westminster 30,384 31,235 The recognition and management of sepsis is also E06000035 Medway 13,170 14,280 part of a clinical audit of emergency departments by E06000036 Bracknell Forest 2,772 3,049 the College of Emergency Medicine, which will be E06000037 West Berkshire 4,381 4,819 concluded by 31 January 2014. This audit is listed in the E06000038 Reading 7,466 8,212 Department’s quality accounts for 2013-14, which requires E06000039 Slough 4,988 5,487 providers in England to report on their participation in E06000040 Windsor and 3,192 3,511 national clinical audits. Maidenhead E06000041 Wokingham 3,839 4,223 Skin Cancer E06000042 Milton Keynes 7,989 8,788 E06000043 Brighton and 18,185 18,695 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Hove how many cases of skin cancer were diagnosed in each E06000044 Portsmouth 15,737 16,178 year for which data is available. [173964] E06000045 Southampton 14,313 15,050 E06000046 Isle of Wight 5,922 6,088 Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the E10000002 Buckinghamshire 15,681 17,249 Cabinet Office. E10000011 East Sussex 23,839 24,507 E10000014 Hampshire 36,753 40,428 The information requested falls within the responsibility E10000016 Kent 49,843 54,827 of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. 173W Written Answers5 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 174W

Letter from Glen Watson, dated November 2013: Table 1: Number of newly diagnosed cases of malignant melanoma of skin1,by sex, England, 1971 to 20112 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Registrations have been asked to reply to your recent question asking the Secretary of State for Health how many cases of skin cancer were Year Males Females Persons diagnosed in each year for which data is available. [173964] 1998 2,251 2,919 5,170 Table 1 provides the number of newly diagnosed cases of 1999 2,293 3,066 5,359 malignant melanoma of skin for men, women and all persons in 2000 2,660 3,379 6,039 England, for each year from 1971 to 2011. 2001 2,826 3,638 6,464 The latest published figures on cancer incidence in England are 2002 2,973 3,745 6,718 available on the National Statistics website at: 2003 3,109 3,886 6,995 http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/cancer-statistics- 2004 3,489 4,238 7,727 registrations--england--series-mb1-/index.html 2005 3,790 4,472 8,262 Table 1: Number of newly diagnosed cases of malignant melanoma of skin1,by 2006 4,154 4,817 8,971 2 sex, England, 1971 to 2011 2007 4,295 4,820 9,115 Registrations 2008 4,756 5,180 9,936 Year Males Females Persons 2009 4,872 5,204 10,076 1971 357 735 1,092 2010 5,198 5,560 10,758 1972 420 825 1,245 2011 5,440 5,681 11,121 1 1973 446 909 1,355 For the years 1971-1978 and 1979-1994 malignant melanoma skin cancer was coded to 172 in the International Statistical Classification of Diseases 8th and 1974 476 958 1,434 9th revisions (ICD-8, ICD-9) respectively. For 1995-2011 malignant melanoma 1975 525 962 1,487 skin cancer is coded to C43 in the International Statistical Classification of 1976 510 1,036 1,546 Disease 10th Revision (ICD-10). 2 Newly diagnosed cases registered in each calendar year. 1977 520 1,024 1,544 1978 558 1,088 1,646 1979 632 1,205 1,837 1980 682 1,292 1,974 WOMEN AND EQUALITIES 1981 738 1,419 2,157 1982 753 1,496 2,249 Marriage 1983 821 1,588 2,409 1984 800 1,593 2,393 1985 1,074 1,947 3,021 Tim Loughton: To ask the Minister for Women and 1986 1,084 1,943 3,027 Equalities what recent discussions she has had with the 1987 1,245 2,210 3,455 Church of England on allowing blessings for same sex 1988 1,494 2,435 3,929 unions in Church of England premises. [173872] 1989 1,367 2,322 3,689 1990 1,460 2,104 3,564 Mr Vaizey: I have been asked to reply on behalf of 1991 1,445 2,181 3,626 the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. 1992 1,607 2,443 4,050 Ministers and officials have had regular discussions 1993 1,843 2,755 4,598 with the Church of England in the context of the 1994 1,850 2,745 4,595 Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013. These have not 1995 1,926 2,851 4,777 addressed the question of whether blessings of same sex 1996 1,975 2,797 4,772 couples should be allowed, which is entirely a matter for 1997 2,167 2,883 5,050 the Church of England. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 5 November 2013

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 99 TREASURY—continued Air Passenger Duty ...... 103 Private Sector Jobs ...... 105 Banking ...... 114 Small Businesses ...... 110 Earnings/Inflation...... 106 Sukuk ...... 102 Energy Prices ...... 99 Topical Questions ...... 115 Fuel Duty ...... 100 Wage Levels ...... 113 Home Buyers ...... 107 Yorkshire Bank ...... 112 Infrastructure...... 109 Youth Unemployment...... 112 In-work Benefits ...... 111 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 5 November 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 5WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL New Debt Management Protocol...... 5WS AFFAIRS...... 10WS Bovine TB...... 10WS CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 5WS Sporting Legacy...... 5WS Tour de France Grand Départ ...... 9WS TRANSPORT ...... 11WS Ministerial Correction ...... 11WS DEFENCE...... 9WS Woodhead Tunnels ...... 11WS Global Counter-terrorism Call-out Order...... 9WS

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 10WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 12WS Chief Nuclear Inspector’s Annual Report...... 10WS Child Maintenance Reform...... 12WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 5 November 2013

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITIONS ...... 5P EDUCATION...... 6P Rural Fair Share Campaign...... 5P Children Placed in Foster Care ...... 6P Rural Fair Share Campaign...... 6P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 5 November 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 109W CABINET OFFICE—continued EU Institutions ...... 109W Unemployment: Chelmsford ...... 127W Redundancy...... 109W Unemployment: Northamptonshire...... 128W Terrorism: Northern Ireland ...... 109W Voluntary Work: Young People...... 128W

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 141W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 145W EADS ...... 141W Billing ...... 145W Environment Protection: Taxation ...... 141W Care Homes ...... 145W Exports ...... 142W Council Tax ...... 146W Graduates: Employment ...... 142W Electrical Safety ...... 146W Insolvency...... 143W First East ...... 146W Foreign Investment in UK ...... 147W Lasers ...... 144W Housing Estates: Management...... 147W Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 144W Local Government ...... 147W New Businesses: Essex ...... 144W Local Government: Bye Laws ...... 148W Post Offices ...... 144W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 148W Non-domestic Rates: Nottinghamshire ...... 148W CABINET OFFICE...... 125W Senior Civil Servants...... 149W Cot Deaths...... 125W National Security ...... 126W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 137W Public Sector Debt ...... 126W Broadband: Essex ...... 137W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued HEALTH—continued HMS Victory ...... 137W Skin Cancer ...... 172W Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964...... 137W Sports: Chelmsford ...... 138W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 112W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 138W Counter-terrorism ...... 112W Entry Clearances...... 113W DEFENCE...... 138W Extradition...... 115W Army...... 138W Health Services: Foreign Nationals ...... 115W Home Ownership...... 139W Immigrants: Detainees ...... 115W Military Alliances ...... 139W Members: Surveillance...... 116W Reserve Forces: Young People...... 140W Narendra Modi...... 116W Territorial Army: Northern Ireland ...... 140W National Crime Agency ...... 116W UK Membership of EU...... 140W Overseas Students: China...... 117W War Pensions ...... 140W UK Visas and Immigration...... 118W Warships ...... 141W Verne Prison...... 118W

EDUCATION...... 155W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 151W Children: Day Care ...... 155W Afghanistan ...... 151W Free Schools...... 156W Charitable Donations...... 151W GCSE ...... 157W Developing Countries: Genetically Modified Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 158W Organisms...... 151W Roads: Safety ...... 159W Lost Property...... 152W Schools: Standards...... 159W Philippines ...... 152W Special Educational Needs...... 159W Stress...... 152W Teachers: Training...... 160W UK Membership of EU...... 162W JUSTICE...... 119W Judges ...... 119W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 150W Prison Service ...... 121W Energy Companies Obligation ...... 150W Prisoners: Hearing Impairment...... 123W Energy: Prices ...... 150W Property Tribunal Panel ...... 123W UK Membership of EU...... 150W Rape: Sentencing...... 124W Water Power...... 151W Translation Services ...... 124W Young Offenders: Rehabilitation...... 125W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 129W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 118W Animal Welfare: Circuses...... 129W Civil Disorder ...... 118W Coastal Areas...... 129W Northern Ireland Act 1998...... 118W Dangerous Dogs ...... 129W Terrorism ...... 119W European Commission...... 130W Tourism...... 119W Fisheries: Morocco ...... 130W Food Banks: Disability ...... 130W Forests ...... 131W TRANSPORT ...... 110W Pigmeat: Northern Ireland...... 131W Air Traffic Control: Lasers...... 110W UK Membership of EU...... 132W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 110W Motor Vehicles: Registration...... 111W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 107W Pedestrian Crossings ...... 111W Burma...... 107W Railway Stations: Gilsland ...... 111W China ...... 107W Railways: Finance ...... 112W Egypt ...... 107W Railways: North West ...... 112W EU Justice and Home Affairs...... 108W EU Law...... 108W TREASURY ...... 132W Iran...... 108W Bank Services: Fees and Charges ...... 133W Maldives ...... 109W Banks: Finance ...... 134W Child Care...... 132W HEALTH...... 162W Child Poverty ...... 132W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 162W City of London...... 134W Autism ...... 163W Commodity Markets...... 134W Breast Cancer...... 163W Dark Pool Trading ...... 132W Clinical Commissioning Groups ...... 164W Financial Services ...... 133W Congenital Abnormalities...... 164W Income Tax ...... 134W Disability Aids: Children ...... 164W Minimum Wage ...... 134W Disability: Children...... 164W National Insurance Contributions ...... 135W Genetics: Screening ...... 165W Public Expenditure...... 135W Homeopathy ...... 165W Smuggling: Tobacco...... 136W Influenza: Vaccination ...... 165W Tax Allowances: Married People...... 136W Mental Health Services ...... 166W VAT ...... 136W Mental Health Services: Young People...... 166W Welfare Tax Credits...... 136W Midwives...... 168W Youth Unemployment...... 132W Musculoskeletal Disorders...... 169W NHS: Finance ...... 169W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 174W Sepsis ...... 172W Marriage ...... 174W Col. No. Col. No. WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 152W WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Crisis Loans ...... 152W Housing Benefit ...... 154W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 153W Jobcentre Plus ...... 154W Employment Schemes: Disability...... 153W Universal Credit...... 155W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 12 November 2013

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 5 November 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 99] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

Benefit Claimants (Automatic Transfer to Alternative Benefits) [Col. 122] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(John Hemming)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill [Col. 125] Motion for Second Reading—(Mrs Grant)—agreed to

Backbench Business Water Industry [Col. 178] Motion—(Charlie Elphicke)—agreed to

Bullying (School Transport) [Col. 223] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Persecution of Christians (Middle East) [Col. 1WH] Renewable Energy (Peterborough) [Col. 26WH] Under-Occupancy Penalty [Col. 34WH] NHS Funding (North-East and Teesside) [Col. 59WH] The Maldives [Col. 68WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 5WS]

Petitions [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 107W] [see index inside back page]