Tird Session, 41st Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES (HANSARD)

Monday, October 15, 2018 Afernoon Sitting Issue No. 157

THE HONOURABLE DARRYL PLECAS, SPEAKER

ISSN 1499-2175 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC

Third Session, 41st Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Darryl Plecas

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Attorney General...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens’ Services...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ...... Hon. Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy...... Hon. Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ...... Hon. Minister of Health ...... Hon. Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Trade and Technology...... Hon. Minister of State for Trade...... Hon. Minister of Labour ...... Hon. Minister of Mental Health and Addictions...... Hon. Judy Darcy Minister of Municipal Afairs and Housing...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Ofcial Opposition...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Leader of the Tird Party ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Deputy Speaker...... Raj Chouhan Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Linda Reid Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Clerk Assistant — Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ...... Susan Sourial Sessional Law Clerk...... Loredana Catalli-Sonier, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Penticton Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford South ...... Hon. Darryl Plecas Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Abbotsford West ...... Michael de Jong, QC Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Boundary-Similkameen...... Linda Larson Begg, Garry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Guildford Burnaby–Deer Lake ...... Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Katrina Chen Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Burnaby North...... Janet Routledge Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)...... Surrey South Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Donna Barnett Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End Cariboo North ...... Coralee Oakes Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Chilliwack...... John Martin Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack-Kent...... Laurie Troness Chow, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fraserview Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Doug Clovechok Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Joan Isaacs Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Langley East Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Hon. Selina Robinson Conroy, Hon. Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Courtenay-Comox ...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Darcy, Hon. Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley ...... Sonia Furstenau Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Delta North ...... de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Delta South...... Ian Paton Dean, Mitzi (NDP)...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Esquimalt-Metchosin...... D’Eith, Bob (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Jackie Tegart Dix, Hon. Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Tompson...... Peter Milobar Donaldson, Hon. Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Tompson ...... Todd Stone Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Kelowna–Lake Country...... Norm Letnick Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Steve Tomson Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kelowna West...... Ben Stewart Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay East ...... Tom Shypitka Foster, Eric (BC Liberal)...... Vernon-Monashee Kootenay West ...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Fraser, Hon. Scott (NDP) ...... Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Langford–Juan de Fuca...... Hon. John Horgan Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ...... Cowichan Valley Langley...... Mary Polak Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Langley East ...... Rich Coleman Glumac, Rick (NDP)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Bob D’Eith Heyman, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Hon. Lisa Beare Horgan, Hon. John (NDP) ...... Langford–Juan de Fuca Mid Island–Pacifc Rim ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Nanaimo ...... Leonard Eugene Krog Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley James, Hon. Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Nechako Lakes ...... John Rustad Johal, Jas (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Queensborough Nelson-Creston...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)...... Delta North New Westminster ...... Hon. Judy Darcy Kang, Anne (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake North Coast...... Jennifer Rice Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ...... Nanaimo North Island ...... Hon. Claire Trevena Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)...... Shuswap North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Tornthwaite Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ...... Courtenay-Comox Parksville-Qualicum ...... Michelle Stilwell Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Peace River North...... Dan Davies Ma, Bowinn (NDP)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Peace River South...... Mike Bernier Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Penticton...... Dan Ashton Martin, John (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack Port Coquitlam ...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–North Tompson Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Rick Glumac Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Mungall, Hon. Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Mike Morris Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount...... Shirley Bond Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)...... Saanich North and the Islands Richmond North Centre ...... Teresa Wat Paton, Ian (BC Liberal)...... Delta South Richmond-Queensborough ...... Jas Johal Plecas, Hon. Darryl (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South Richmond South Centre...... Linda Reid Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston...... John Yap Popham, Hon. Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Saanich North and the Islands...... Adam Olsen Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South...... Hon. Lana Popham Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Shuswap ...... Greg Kyllo Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond South Centre Skeena ...... Ellis Ross Rice, Jennifer (NDP)...... North Coast Stikine ...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Robinson, Hon. Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale...... Marvin Hunt Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)...... Skeena Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Jagrup Brar Routledge, Janet (NDP)...... Burnaby North Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Rachna Singh Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Guildford ...... Garry Begg Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton...... Hon. Harry Bains Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Surrey-Panorama...... Hon. Jinny Sims Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey South...... Stephanie Cadieux Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley...... Hon. Bruce Ralston Sims, Hon. Jinny (NDP) ...... Surrey-Panorama Surrey–White Rock...... Tracy Redies Singh, Rachna (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Vancouver-Fairview ...... Hon. George Heyman Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna West Vancouver–False Creek...... Sam Sullivan Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. George Chow Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–South Tompson Vancouver-Hastings ...... Hon. Shane Simpson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Kensington ...... Mable Elmore Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kingsway ...... Hon. Adrian Dix Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Langara ...... Michael Lee Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Hon. Melanie Mark Tomson, Steve (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. David Eby, QC Tornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Troness, Laurie (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack-Kent Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond North Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Hon. Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (BC Green Party) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake ...... Hon. Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Ralph Sultan Yap, John (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Jordan Sturdy

Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; BC Green Party 3; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Monday, October 15, 2018 Afernoon Sitting Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 5529

Introduction and First Reading of Bills...... 5530 Bill 42 — Assessment Amendment Act, 2018 Hon. S. Robinson Bill 43 — Miscellaneous Statutes (Minor Corrections) Amendment Act, 2018 Hon. D. Eby

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 5531 Registered disability savings plans M. Elmore Small Business Week C. Oakes Referendum on electoral reform R. Singh Music Heals Foundation and music therapy L. Reid Burnaby Central Railway J. Routledge Rosedale Harvest Festival and agricultural parade L. Troness

Oral Questions...... 5533 Cannabis store openings S. Bond Hon. M. Farnworth M. Stilwell Impact of employer health tax on businesses A. Olsen Hon. C. James Cannabis store openings J. Johal Hon. M. Farnworth Cannabis regulation P. Milobar Hon. M. Farnworth Illegal cannabis store operations M. Morris Hon. M. Farnworth

Motions Without Notice...... 5538 Legislative sittings until 9 p.m. on Mondays Hon. M. Farnworth

Tabling Documents...... 5538 B.C. Ferry Commissioner, annual report, fscal year ending March 31, 2018

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills ...... 5538 Bill 39 — Poverty Reduction Strategy Act (continued) Hon. J. Sims Hon. J. Darcy Hon. S. Robinson N. Simons D. Routley A. Kang J. Rice Hon. S. Simpson Committee of the Whole House...... 5558 Bill 37 — Land Statutes Amendment Act, 2018 (continued)

Report and Tird Reading of Bills...... 5558 Bill 37 — Land Statutes Amendment Act, 2018

Second Reading of Bills ...... 5559 Bill 40 — Electoral Reform Referendum 2018 Amendment Act, 2018 Hon. D. Eby M. Lee S. Furstenau B. D’Eith

Tabling Documents...... 5569 B.C. Arts Council, annual report, 2017-18

Second Reading of Bills ...... 5569 Bill 40 — Electoral Reform Referendum 2018 Amendment Act, 2018 (continued) T. Stone A. Olsen R. Coleman A. Weaver R. Glumac D. Barnett 5529

MONDAY, OCTOBER 15, 2018 bert, president of Vehicle-Mounted Air Compressors, Nanaimo; and Rob McCurdy, CEO of Pinnacle Renewable Te House met at 1:35 p.m. Energy from Prince George. Non-resource manufacturing is vital and growing. Manu- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] facturing contributes to our economy. In addition, in these times, export development is crucial to the future success of Routine Business any business in the province. Tis organization is dedicated to pursuing those objectives. Introductions by Members I would ask that the House make all of those people wel- come. Mr. Speaker: We will begin with the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, who is going to introduce G. Kyllo: I, also, would like to extend a warm welcome to us to one of the cutest little people on the planet. the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters Association who are joining us today. As mentioned, we’re joined by Andrew Hon. M. Mungall: Tank you very much. I don’t disagree Booth, CCO of Stemcell Technologies; Willy Manson, from with that, hon. Speaker. Stinger Welding of Prince George; Mark Gladstone, com- I want to introduce the House to the newest addition to mercial risk adviser with CapriCMW. We have Tod Gilbert, my family. Tis is Zavier Andrew Roman Matieschyn. He president of VMAC, Air Innovated; Gerry Friesen, FreFlyt came into the world on July 21 at 10:04 in the morning, afer Industries; Lyle McGladderly with IPC; Jordan Perrault with a mere 12 hours of labour. He came in at 8 pounds 9 ounces, the Construction Foundation of B.C.; Robert McFarlane and he’s been growing like a weed ever since. He is, of course, with Capri; and Dave Weller of KOSTKLIP. the light of my life and the light of his father’s life, Zak Mati- Now, the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters Associ- eschyn, who is just up in the gallery this afernoon. ation is the country’s leading trade and industry association, Zavier, his dad and I would like to thank, of course, our serving as the voice of 10,000 leading companies. Manu- midwife, Catherine Ruskin; Dr. Moola; the maternity nurses; facturing matters here in B.C., where manufacturing is the and everyone at Kootenay Lake Hospital. Him coming into fourth-largest contributor to the provincial GDP and the the world was just a wonderful experience. It was a difcult third-largest employer. Manufacturing contributes 30 per- experience, but it was wonderful. cent of the business tax revenue paid to government, 42 Of course, I want to say a special thank-you. A lot of percent of the private sector research and development and people look over and don’t know about it, but our mater- almost 65 percent of British Columbia’s exports. nity services at Kootenay Lake Hospital didn’t come Would the House please make those members from CME without a little bit of a fght. Te parents who led that fght very welcome. — I want to thank them, because I got to beneft from all [1:40 p.m.] of their hard work. Of course, I want to thank everybody in this House for T. Wat: It is my pleasure today to welcome a delegation making this moment possible and for making our demo- from Hong Kong, the city where I was born, where I was cratic institutions more family-friendly so that anybody can educated and where I started my family and my career. run, and they don’t have to choose between parenthood and Joining us today are the board of directors and student being an efective MLA. I think that makes our democracy ambassadors for the Tung Wah Group of Hospitals. Let’s wel- stronger. I’m so glad that the support for that came unanim- come the chairman, Mr. Vinci Wong; Mr. Gabriel Au; Mr. ously from this House. Kazaf Tam; Mr. Herman Wai, who was a high school student Tank you very much, everybody. Tank you for welcom- of my daughter, Tin Lee; and more than 60 students, teach- ing Zavier with such open arms. ers and staf of 18 secondary schools of the Tung Wah Group of Hospitals. L. Larson: I’d like to introduce today our good friend, Te Tung Wah Group of Hospitals is the frst charitable Jason Goertzen. He’s brought with him his parents, Ed and organization founded in Hong Kong. It was actually estab- Karen, who live in my riding. Would the House please make lished much longer than B.C. joining Confederation. It was them welcome. established in 1870 and is a familiar name in the global Chinese community. Tey started the ambassador student Hon. B. Ralston: Here to celebrate CMEBC manufac- program in 2015. Tey travelled to Los Angeles, London and turing Day at the Legislature are Andrew Wynn-Williams, San Francisco, and this year they picked Vancouver as the divisional president for B.C. of Canadian Manufacturers place for them to widen their horizons, to improve their and Exporters; Dennis Darby, who is the president and skills in many respects and to study our Legislature and our CEO of the national organization; and a series of business political system. Today they had a tour of the Legislature. owners and operators: Andrew Booth, chief commercial Tey had a lot of Q and A to me, asking how tough it is to be operator at Stemcell Technologies in Vancouver; Tod Gil- an MLA in this Legislature, especially as a woman. 5530 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018

Also joining them is a crew from Fairchild television, the like to recognize: Val Berg, AlNoor Teja and the new, incom- biggest national Chinese TV station, which is located in my ing president of the Fraser Valley real estate association, Dar- beautiful riding of Richmond North Centre. in Germyn. I’d like the House to make them welcome. Please, every one of you, give a big round of applause to [1:45 p.m.] the delegation from Hong Kong. Hon. D. Donaldson: Visiting the Legislature today and in A. Kang: I would like to welcome some of my friends the gallery is the mayor of Telkwa, Darcy Repen. Telkwa is who are here in the gallery today from the greater Victoria a beautiful and small community in my constituency where Taiwanese Canadian association, and one of my very spe- the Bulkley and Telkwa rivers meet. Darcy is not seeking re- cial friends, May Lee. She also brings with her all her election, so I want to thank him for his public service over friends: Angi Lee, Shelly Hung, Scott Lambert, Alex Kuo, the last four years. Although we’ve not always seen eye to eye, Daniel Hsu, Bihru Chang, Julie Lee, Linda Ho-Lin and Li in a true rural cooperative manner, we’ve worked togeth- fen Lin. Tey have made my stay in Victoria very special. er for the beneft of the citizens of Telkwa. I would like the It’s almost like a home away from home experience. I know members to please make him welcome. that I can come to Victoria, and in the evening, I could actually go home to auntie and someone who would make D. Ashton: It gives me great pleasure to introduce a gen- me a nice rice dinner. Please have the House welcome all tleman, a very well-known real estate agent in Penticton, my friends here today. James Palanio. James, thanks for coming down today. R. Kahlon: It’s my honour to welcome some guests here in the House today. Rene Sandhu is a constituent of mine Introduction and First Reading of Bills who is here with the B.C. real estate board and here to speak to all the members of this House. He has brought with him BILL 42 — ASSESSMENT today his family: Tarsem Kaur Singh, Sajjan Singh Sandhu AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 and Savalli Kaur Sandhu. Tese two young ones will be here, watching question period today and watching our demo- Hon. S. Robinson presented a message from Her Honour cracy in action. Please make them welcome. the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Assessment Amendment Act, 2018. D. Barnett: I would like to introduce a friend, a past col- league and a great community gentleman from Williams Hon. S. Robinson: I move that Bill 42, the Assessment Lake. He’s involved with the Williams Lake Stampede, with Amendment Act, 2018, be introduced and read a frst time our indoor rodeo, and he is also president of the B.C. North- now. ern Real Estate Board. Would the House help me welcome I am pleased to introduce the Assessment Amendment Courtney Smith here today. Act, 2018. Te proposed legislation aims to protect com- munity-sustaining jobs that major industry properties, class M. Elmore: I’m very pleased to welcome members of the 4, provide to British Columbians. Tese properties can Rising Up Against Unjust Recruitment coalition who are include saw mills, mines, smelters, large product manufac- here in the Legislature to talk about the need to protect turers and other similar operations. temporary foreign workers from abuse and exploitation by Under the Assessment Act, B.C. Assessment is required recruiters and employers in British Columbia. We have Nat- to value properties based on their actual market value when alie Drolet, the executive director of the Migrant Workers considering highest, best or future use — the most probable Centre; David Fairey, co-chair of the B.C. Employment use of a property that would return the highest value. Standards Coalition; Erie Maestro, from Migrante B.C.; However, the act also requires B.C. Assessment to classify Irene Lanzinger, the president of the B.C. Federation of properties based on current or actual use. Property tax rates Labour; and a number of other folks advocating on behalf of for class 4 are signifcantly higher than residential or com- the rights for all workers. I’ll ask everybody to please make mercial rates in most municipalities. them very welcome. When local governments adopt or make changes to the ofcial community plans that identify these types of class 4 L. Reid: I, too, would like to welcome the newest babe to properties for future redevelopment, typically as residential the foor of this chamber. I’m happy to share with you that towers with a commercial component, the properties will be my little girl spent her frst three years here and is in frst year valued at their future highest and best use. As a result, major university this year, so absolutely none the worse for having industrial properties that are valued based on future devel- been raised with you lovely souls. Welcome. opment potential but taxed as industrial facilities can be sub- ject to signifcant increases in property taxes despite there T. Redies: We have several members of the Fraser Valley being no change in their actual use. Tis increase can be cost Real Estate Board with us today, constituents of mine who I’d prohibitive for continued operations. Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5531

We are aware of at least one facility, which employs dozens Motion approved. of personnel, that is facing a several-fold increase in property taxes as a result of the discrepancy between valuation and Hon. D. Eby: I move the bill be placed on the orders of classifcation, an increase that would put these very import- the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House ant jobs at risk. afer today. As many are aware, closure of any major industry facility can have drastic and far-reaching impacts, threatening the Bill 43, Miscellaneous Statutes (Minor Corrections) economic well-being of individuals, families and entire com- Amendment Act, 2018, introduced, read a frst time and munities. We are taking action to prevent eligible major ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second industry properties from making the decision to cease oper- reading at the next sitting of the House afer today. ations and lay of staf due to high carrying costs. Te proposed legislation would authorize B.C. Assess- Statements (Standing Order 25B) ment to continue assessing qualifying properties based on their current industrial use rather than their future highest REGISTERED DISABILITY SAVINGS PLANS and best use for a period of two years with the option for extension. Valuation based on classifcation would result in M. Elmore: October is Registered Disability Savings Plan, signifcant property tax savings prior to redevelopment and or RDSP, Awareness Month, and 2018 marks ten years since support the continued operation of the facility. In return, the federal government launched the RDSP. I’m happy to say we’re asking for a commitment to maintain their current use that British Columbia has the highest per-capita enrolment in an equivalent or greater level of productivity for that two- in the country, with more than 31,000 British Columbians year period, ensuring that these jobs are protected. with disabilities taking this important step in planning for their future. Mr. Speaker: Te question is frst reading of the bill. We want to make sure that every eligible person with a disability knows that this valuable savings plan and the Motion approved. resources and support to sign up for it are available. Right now we’re at about 40 percent uptake in B.C., and there are Hon. S. Robinson: I move that the bill be placed on the still tens of thousands of British Columbians who are eligible orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the but don’t yet have an RDSP. House afer today. Saving for the future can be a daunting and stressful undertaking, but its importance cannot be overstated. Too Bill 42, Assessment Amendment Act, 2018, introduced, ofen we hear about people with disabilities facing poverty. read a frst time and ordered to be placed on orders of the In fact, people with disabilities are twice as likely to live in day for second reading at the next sitting of the House afer poverty as other British Columbians. Tat’s why RDSPs are today. such an important poverty reduction tool. Tey can help provide a safe, secure and independent future for people BILL 43 — MISCELLANEOUS STATUTES with disabilities. (MINOR CORRECTIONS) I want to recognize the work of the RDSP action group in AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 making sure RDSP information and supports are getting to those who need it. Te action group has updated their guide, Hon. D. Eby presented a message from Her Honour the which is available on line at rdsp.com, to help individuals, Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Miscellaneous Statutes families and caregivers. (Minor Corrections) Amendment Act, 2018. Reducing poverty is a serious challenge for our province. Te RDSP program is an opportunity for people with disab- Hon. D. Eby: I move that the bill be introduced and read ilities to save for their future, regardless of income level, and a frst time now. have the peace of mind of knowing that they will have sav- I’m pleased to introduce Bill 43, the Miscellaneous Stat- ings available as they age. utes (Minor Corrections) Amendment Act, 2018. Tis bill is Tere is still a lot of work to do to ensure that every eli- a collection of minor corrections and technical housekeep- gible British Columbian has the information that they need ing amendments to various statutes. As part of the statute to start an RDSP. I encourage everybody to visit rdsp.com to revision process, the ofce of legislative counsel routinely sign up or to help someone start a registered disability sav- identifes and brings forward these types of corrections. Te ings plan today. minor corrections in this bill are part of the routine process to ensure that B.C. statutes are orderly and correct. SMALL BUSINESS WEEK [1:50 p.m.] C. Oakes: Te week of October 15 to 20 marks Small Mr. Speaker: Te question is frst reading of the bill. Business Week here in British Columbia. To help show our 5532 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 appreciation for the one million British Columbians who that gets 25 percent of the vote gets 25 percent of the seats. work in the small business sector, let us all demonstrate our It’s an important…. support by visiting our favourite small business and posting a picture on social media. Mr. Speaker: Member. Member, if you might be seated, We’re also engaging in a social media dialogue about please. opportunities and challenges facing small businesses. So join the #smallbusinessweek. Tis culminates on Saturday with MUSIC HEALS FOUNDATION an exciting initiative by the Canadian Federation of Inde- AND MUSIC THERAPY pendent Business called #smallbizsaturday. It can be your favourite corner store, the place where you work or any one L. Reid: It is my pleasure today to rise and speak to you of the thousands of businesses that bind our communities about Music Heals, a Canadian charitable foundation that together. By showing your support for local businesses, you raises funds and awareness for music therapy in . I are not only promoting local entrepreneurs; you are also was delighted to hear Ms. Danielle Rana speak about the supporting our own province. organization at a meeting of the Richmond Chinatown Lions In my own riding of Cariboo North, small businesses Club. She explained the benefts of music therapy with such come in all shapes and sizes, including ranchers, logging enthusiasm as she told us about the position and function of contractors, truckers, real estate and manufacturers. As the organization she represents. policy-makers, we have a responsibility to ensure a com- One of the resounding themes to music therapy is testi- petitive business climate to help the small business sector mony and narrative. We were astounded to hear how many prosper. diferent people in our province have had their lives changed I was really encouraged to listen and to hear what busi- by crossing paths with a music therapist. nesses have been saying to the government with the Small Danielle told us about people who hadn’t spoken in years Business Task Force. Tey identifed the cumulative tax bur- singing “Let It Be,” by the chorus. She told us about music den as the number one impediment to growth. Respondents therapy in palliative care, to guide a person through the end from all across British Columbia recognize increasing taxes, of life with the kindness and safe familiarity of their favour- such as the carbon tax and, in particular, the employer health ite songs. She told us about music used to heal emotionally, tax, as challenges that small businesses are concerned about. physically, spiritually or mentally, and how music therapy’s Participants say that the emerging tax on payroll will drive benefts are so vast that its full potential is not wholly known up their costs of doing business and may result in reductions yet. Music therapy is so versatile, as its practice comes from and general price increases for goods and services. Tese are the application of music from an accredited music therapist the types of issues that small business owners from all over in whichever direction best serves the patient. British Columbia want us to consider. Danielle also spoke of the need for increased support and I invite all members of this House and the general public volunteers so that Music Heals may continue to deliver their to think about this during Small Business Week and to programming to those who need it most. I would strongly show your appreciation for the backbone of our provincial encourage all those present here today to look into music economy. therapy programs in their communities and support this organization however they can. REFERENDUM ON ELECTORAL REFORM BURNABY CENTRAL RAILWAY R. Singh: One week from today, starting on October 22, over three million referendum ballots will be mailed out to J. Routledge: Tis summer I took a ride on the Burnaby registered voters across British Columbia. Central Railway. “What’s that?” you might ask. If you google [1:55 p.m.] it, you’ll read that it is a hidden gem, so hidden that most So will begin one of the most important referendums of lifelong Vancouverites don’t even know about it. I didn’t our time, and on November 30, we’ll fnd out whether British really know about it, and I live right down the street. Ten, Columbians will decide to keep our current frst-past-the- this summer, I was invited to their 25th anniversary. Since post voting system or move to a system of proportional rep- then, I’ve been back twice. resentation. Te Burnaby Central Railway is a unique ride-on mini- Te debate is passionate on both sides. But whether you ature, lovingly built and operated by the volunteers of the believe our system should remain as it is or you believe it is B.C. Society of Model Engineers, located in a charmingly time for a change, there is one thing we can all agree on: that groomed forest just north of Confederation Park. Tere are everyone should make sure their voice is heard, and vote. two miles of track that wind their way over bridges, through If British Columbians vote for proportional representa- tunnels and around hills. Te engines are steam powered. tion, we will make history. B.C. will be the frst in North What is it about train travel that so captures the imagina- America to do so, the frst to adopt a system where a party tion? Well, we’ve certainly been taught that it was the railway that built this country, that the railway led to industrializa- Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5533 tion, opened up new markets, tied regions together, created a Oral Questions demand for resources, technology and labour and the com- munities that grew up around them. Or maybe it’s that train CANNABIS STORE OPENINGS travel evokes a simpler time, when we could sit back, watch the ever-changing landscape and fnd peace in the rhythm of S. Bond: Cannabis legislation takes efect in two days, the rails. which is a delay from the original July time frame. It has Some would say that old-fashioned train travel is gone been noted that B.C. lags behind many other jurisdictions, forever. I hope not. But it does mean something that so with plans to open only a single store on Wednesday. many children — Internet-savvy children, smartphone- Can the Minister of Public Safety provide the House and using children — fock to the Burnaby Central Railway British Columbians with a timeline for opening additional every weekend to ride the rails. We owe a debt of thanks stores? to the B.C. Society of Model Engineers for keeping train travel alive in our hearts. Hon. M. Farnworth: As the member will well know, the legalization of cannabis in this country and the province of ROSEDALE HARVEST FESTIVAL British Columbia is probably one of the biggest public policy AND AGRICULTURAL PARADE shifs in the last 50 years. British Columbia has taken very much a collaborative approach in terms of the legalization, L. Troness: In the fall of 2015, Chilliwack city councillor and when it comes to the opening of retail outlets, we were Chris Kloot and his wife, Nella, thought it would be a great very clear right from the beginning that local government idea to hold an agricultural parade in Rosedale, just east of would have a crucial say on whether they wanted public Chilliwack, to honour the farm country where they grew up. stores, private stores or a combination of both, or to have no Te community was on board, and within a few weeks, they stores at all. had enlisted the fre department in Rosedale to put on a pan- Tat process has been well received by local government. cake breakfast and lots of local producers to enter their tract- Local government is responsible for the location and decid- ors and other equipment in the parade. It was all an imme- ing on the number of stores in their communities. Tey have diate hit. also taken their time to put their policies in place and con- Fast forward a few years, and the parade is way longer sult with their local communities. Many of them have indic- now. Te crowds are bigger. Tey’ve added blueberries to the ated to me that afer the local government elections, we can pancakes, and there are lots of booths with things to sell and start to see an increase in the number of stores being opened places to eat and activities for kids. Of course, politicians are up right across the province of British Columbia. Over the attracted to parades like moths to a lightbulb, so I was priv- next few months, you will see a ramping up of both public ileged to ride in the parade for the third year, throwing copi- and private stores. ous amounts of candy to justify my presence. [2:00 p.m.] Mr. Speaker: Prince George–Valemount on a supple- Rosedale is a tight-knit community of poultry and dairy mental. producers, greenhouse and nursery operators rooted in the rich soil of the Fraser Valley. Everywhere you look would S. Bond: Well, we would certainly agree that it is a massive make a great postcard, from lush, green felds and straight shif in public policy. But that’s true for Alberta as well as rows of nursery plants to verdant trees and stunning views British Columbia. And the similar situation in Alberta is of Mount Cheam. Rosedale farms are typically large, clean, that they also require local approval. Here’s the diference. prosperous and expertly run, using the latest technology by Te Alberta government has said that their approval process farmers who are aggressive entrepreneurs, many with mul- takes two to four months and that 100 stores are expected to tiple business lines. be open by the end of the month. At the heart of Rosedale lies community and families, We concur with the concept of local involvement, but most of whom share Dutch or German heritage. Many who when we look at the rules, they were the same for Alberta as ride in the parade know those who are watching it, and it’s all they are for British Columbia. one more opportunity to get together, to catch up with each Can the minister follow the example of Alberta and lay his other, sharing their love for their way of life and the beautiful plan and timeline for opening additional stores? place they call home. I’d like to pay tribute to Chris and Nella Kloot, Jocelyn Hon. M. Farnworth: We’ve laid out our plan. We’ve laid Kloot, Jack Klaassen, Kristy Klaassen, Lisa Neels and Laura out the legislation. We have debated that legislation in this Terhaar, who work hard to foster an enhanced sense of com- House. And I will tell you one thing that we are not going munity in Rosedale, organizing what has already become a to do. We are not going to rush the legalization of retail out- fxture of country life in the Fraser Valley, the Rosedale Har- lets without making sure we’ve done the proper background vest Festival. checks to make sure that organized crime is not part of any 5534 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 application for any legalized store in the province of British that we do the proper background checks around organ- Columbia. ized crime. Te member may think that rushing stores and getting Mr. Speaker: Prince George–Valemount on a second sup- things in place is the way to go. We intend to ensure that it’s plemental. done properly, that it meets the needs of British Columbi- ans and meets the needs of communities. We’ve been clear S. Bond: As I said to the minister, we would agree that on that right from the very beginning, and we’re clear on that there is a balance between local decision-making, and we going into the future. have been very clear about our position on that. We also know that there needs to be a balance in that decision-mak- M. Stilwell: According to the Minister of Public Safety, ing. But let’s be clear. Te frst step to eliminating a black there have been 173 retail cannabis licence applications sub- market is to have sufcient numbers of legal stores open to mitted to the province. the public. Can the minister please provide an update on the average [2:05 p.m.] length of time to process an application and how many stores Here’s the timeline, to the minister, from Alberta. Seven- will open this month? teen stores will open on Wednesday, 100 by the end of Octo- ber and 250 stores within the frst year. Hon. M. Farnworth: Well, I thank the member for her Again to the minister, a simple question: what is the question. I would like to remind her of a couple of things. timeline for opening additional stores in British Columbia? First of, the federal government only fnally passed the legis- lation legalizing cannabis, with all the rules and regulations Hon. M. Farnworth: I must admit that I’m a bit fascinated on both Bills C-45 and C-46, at the end of June. We put in by the response from the member opposite. I’dlike to remind place the application process to start opening in August. Te her that at UBCM, the Leader of the Opposition stood up portal went up. and gave a speech and referenced cannabis. At that time, he We have now received 173 applications. Sixty-fve of those made out a number of statements. I was kind of wondering, applications have been assessed for their completeness and “Where has he been for the last year and a half?” because he have been found to be complete in every detail. Tey have stood up in front of UBCM delegates and said: “Government been forwarded to the local government that has the approv- should not be forcing Richmond to open a store if they don’t ing authority. Tirty-fve of those applications are, in fact, in want one.” jurisdictions that have said they are ready to deal with can- nabis applications now. Interjections. Te other issue being done at the same time is the back- ground check on those applications to make sure that there Hon. M. Farnworth: Oh, I see a nerve has been touched. are no links to organized crime, that we know exactly where You know what, hon. Speaker? We made that really clear the money is coming from. If there are any issues that require — that we’re not going to force stores down the throats of a much deeper dive, that will also take place. communities that don’t want one. Again, I will say to the member that the approval process Te other issue that I would like to put on the table, if for stores comes in place when local government says they’re they’d like to hear the answer… ready to deal with it. Tey’re in the midst of local govern- ment elections. I expect stores are going to open up — in Interjections. fact, I know stores are going to open up — in the months afer that. Mr. Speaker: Members, we shall hear the response. Tank Guess what. We’re making sure we do it right. It’s not you. rushed, because we’ve seen what happened when that side of the House was on this side and rushed through applications. Hon. M. Farnworth: …is that we are in the midst of local Guess what. It ended up being a mess. government elections, and local government has made it really clear. Tey want to deal with those applications afer Mr. Speaker: Te member for Parksville-Qualicum on a those elections have taken place. Tat’s exactly what is going supplemental. to happen. While we will have the store open in Kamloops and the M. Stilwell: Getting those stores open to displace illicit public, on-line retail outlet, which will serve the entire sellers is a critical step in eliminating that criminal element province, other stores are going to open up during the that the minister is so concerned about. months ahead. As I said, we are going to make sure that [2:10 p.m.] it is done properly, and we are going to make sure that we According to the minister, 35 applications, as he men- address the issues that the public is concerned about — tioned, have been sent to willing local governments, who are ready and willing to have the stores in their communities. Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5535

When did the province refer these applications to the local decision to implement a new payroll tax substantially adds governments, and how many are expected to open in the to their operational costs. next month? My question is to the Minister of Finance. What is the government doing to help businesses like these remain Hon. M. Farnworth: I must admit I am quite fascinated viable and keep jobs here, in light of the accumulated chal- by the sudden desire to suddenly have all these stores open lenges they’re facing? on day one from that side of the House. I have to ask you, hon. Speaker, when they sat over here, Hon. C. James: Tank you to the member for the ques- did any of their ministers go down to Washington and Ore- tion. gon and talk with ofcials down there? No. Not one did. Not As we know on this side of the House, it is important one went down…. to remain competitive. B.C.’s economy is strong, and we are going to keep it that way while investing in the people of this Interjections. province to help build a strong economy. I’m very proud that, in fact, many of the items that have Hon. M. Farnworth: Oh, the token minister. been raised by the member are areas that we have set as a Te point being…. Te applications are received by the priority for the budget. Business afer business afer business province. Te applications are assessed for their complete- talks about the challenge they have when it comes to aford- ness by the province. Approximately two-thirds of applica- able housing. We have a crisis because it was ignored by the tions have been found not to be complete, so they are sent other side. We are addressing the housing crisis not simply back for the additional information. for tenants and families who need to work and live in their Te remaining one-third of those applications, once communities. We are also addressing it for businesses, for they’re deemed to be complete, are then sent to the local gov- exactly the competitive issue that the member raised. ernment responsible, as well as the work being done within [2:15 p.m.] my ministry in terms of the background check. Tat is cur- So investments in housing, investments in child care, rently underway and has been since the portal opened, and investments in remaining competitive. I’m happy to listen 173 applications shows there’s considerable interest. to the member talk about businesses and raise those issues As I’ve said before, we’re making sure it’s done properly, with me. I’ve had many conversations with businesses. We’re done with local government consent, that the public has had going to continue our good work to remain competitive and input, that the zoning rules and everything meet the needs of keep our economy strong. local government — that they’re the ones who decide wheth- er or not they want a public store or private store or no store Mr. Speaker: Te member for Saanich North and the at all — and that the due diligence is done around links to Islands on a supplemental. organized crime or money laundering or fraudulent claims. Only then, once all of those conditions have been satisfed, A. Olsen: Tank you to the members on the other side for will a licence be issued. paying attention to the questions. Tank you to the minister Tat’s the right approach to take, and we’re sticking to it. for the response. Many businesses in my riding are feeling real impacts on IMPACT OF EMPLOYER HEALTH TAX their bottom line from this new tax. Business leaders are ON BUSINESSES worried about whether they can continue to do business on the Saanich Peninsula. A. Olsen: Since becoming an MLA, I’ve heard from busi- Some are unlikely to leave. Take Butchart Gardens, for nesses in my riding that they’re having substantial challenges example. It’s not particularly mobile, but we shouldn’t tempt handling increasing costs — afordability. them. For others, we compete for their business. Viking Air Te Saanich Peninsula is one the largest industrial land has manufacturing centres here and in Alberta. If they lef bases in the region. It is home to most of the established for Calgary, it would be devastating. Schneider Electric manufacturers in the CRD. As a result, we beneft from hav- employs 280 people in Central Saanich. Tey have a payroll ing many medium-sized businesses in manufacturing, retail, of $20 million. In 2017, they paid $42,000 for their employ- food and tourism. Businesses like Butchart Gardens, Viking ees’ medical services premiums, and in 2020, they will pay Air, Epicure, Schneider Electric and Morinwood — all have $390,000 for the employer health tax. Schneider’s local man- reached out to me expressing legitimate concerns. agement will have to defend to head ofce… With skyrocketing housing costs, transportation problems getting to the peninsula, businesses are facing challenges in Interjections. keeping their operations sustainable, and they don’t feel that government is helping. Tere is inadequate workforce hous- Mr. Speaker: Members, we shall hear the question. Tank ing or public transportation in the region. Government’s you. 5536 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018

A. Olsen: …why they should stay on the Saanich Penin- retail outlet — like Richmond, the community that you rep- sula or even in British Columbia. resent — wouldn’t have to have one. So I’m a bit puzzled as My question to the Minister of Finance is this. What are to why you seem to be up today asking questions as to why you doing to ensure that B.C. businesses remain competitive we haven’t rolled out more stores fast enough. in the years ahead and that the employer health taxes you have proposed won’t be the fnal straw, having the efect of Mr. Speaker: Richmond-Queensborough on a supple- driving business of the Saanich Peninsula? mental.

Hon. C. James: In fact, right now we have the lowest J. Johal: I don’t disagree with the minister in regards to unemployment rate in the country right here in British consultation with local communities. But you had a year to Columbia. We are fnally, afer years of stagnation, seeing prepare for this week. Tat’s the point. Here is a headline wage increases in British Columbia, helping families in our from October of 2017: “B.C. Premier Touts Marijuana Pre- province. paredness.” In October 2018, one year later, the headline In order to help the very businesses that that member reads: “B.C.’s Pot Shop Licensing System Lagging….” talks about, we are investing in post-secondary education Licensing stores is critical to addressing the black market. to make sure that members are trained for the businesses, Can the minister explain his timeline to match the 100 stores to work in this province. As of 2020, British Columbia, the that Alberta anticipates will be open this month? last province with medical service premiums, will eliminate them so individuals can save $900 a year, and families will Hon. M. Farnworth: To listen to the member of the oppo- save $1,800. We’re investing in health care and keeping our sition, it’s almost like you have to wave a wand, and businesses competitive. everything is all done. During this past year, not only have we consulted with British Columbians…. CANNABIS STORE OPENINGS Interjections. J. Johal: On October 3, 2017, the Premier said: “We are well advanced in terms of the retail elements of cannabis Mr. Speaker: Members, we shall hear the response. Tank legalization” — well advanced. Yet by all accounts, one year you. later, B.C. lags behind many provinces. Can the Minister of Public Safety explain why, if this fle Hon. M. Farnworth: Not only have we consulted with was so well advanced more than a year ago, there’s only one British Columbians on cannabis policy in general, put store legally ready to open on day one? together a working group with UBCM, consulted with First Nations, consulted with dozens of industry and trade Hon. M. Farnworth: Again, I must admit, I am fascinated and professional associations around this province dealing by the direction that we’re getting here from the opposition. with the myriad issues that come about because of legaliz- Tey’re concerned that we haven’t rolled out stores right ation; we met…. across the province, and they seem to be all smoked up about that in question period here. Interjection. I want to make it clear to the member that one of the things that we made sure we did, in terms that we are well Hon. M. Farnworth: Yeah, it’s called governing. It’s advanced, was working with local government. Tat’s why something that you’re not doing. we held a consultation process in this province that took For example, local communities had signifcant questions place in September, which 48,000 individuals right across around issues such as the ability to control the number of this province responded to. Tat’s why we put together a plants being grown in a private residence. Tey do now. working group at UBCM to deal with the issues of retail leg- Communities had real concerns. Stratas had real concerns. alization in local communities right across the province. Businesses such as landlord associations had real concerns In communities like yours, hon. Member, in Richmond, about the ability to regulate the smoking of cannabis and the which, when it started out…. Everyone assumed that use of cannabis products in private rental dwellings. All of everybody would either have a government store, a private those kinds of policy initiatives have been undertaken in the store or a mix of both. Richmond came to us and said: “No. last year. We have addressed all of them, and nearly all of We’d like you, Minister, and government to consider that them to the satisfaction of the people being impacted by the communities such as ours may not want to have a retail legalization of cannabis. store.” We sat down with Richmond, we worked through We are not going to apologize for doing this right. I have the issues, and we agreed. been really clear that it is going to take time to establish a [2:20 p.m.] legal retail market in this province. It starts on October 17. When the legislation came forward to this House, we It is going to ramp up in the coming months. It is going to made it clear that communities that didn’t want to have a be one that we can be proud of because it will allow regular Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5537

British Columbians, not just the big chains, to participate in ence in this government’s approach, how does the minister what will be an exciting new opportunity in this province. expect British Columbians to have any confdence?

CANNABIS REGULATION Hon. M. Farnworth: Well, I just laid out a whole series of ways in which we’ve got it right. I’ll lay out a few more P. Milobar: Tat was a very interesting answer, because for the member. there seems to be a pretty wide interpretation of what “doing Te legalization of cannabis also represents a signifcant it right” means from the government. economic opportunity for many regions of this province. Gerald Tomas is the director of alcohol, tobacco, can- Kamloops, with a store, clearly recognized that. But many nabis and gambling policy and prevention for the Ministry other communities and regions in this province recognize of Health. Just two weeks ago he said: “Having just spent the that. last eight months of my life consumed by the cannabis mon- Tat’s why they were very concerned when the federal ster, I call it, I would suggest with most of the folks here that government brought out its initial regulations where the we don’t have it right.” only licensed production that was really being considered To the minister, this statement was two weeks ago by a was large-scale production, which would severely disadvant- senior civil servant. Is it accurate and is it true that this age regions in this province where there is a lot of expertise government doesn’t have it right when it comes to the can- that has the opportunity to become legal. nabis fle? Well, because of the eforts of this province and my min- istry, we got the federal government to change those regu- Hon. M. Farnworth: Kamloops certainly seems to think lations so that small-scale micro producers — and I know we’ve done it right when they’ve got the frst government that the Agriculture critic would be really happy to know — store in the province. Te Landlords Association seemed to were included in those changes so that it will create signifc- think we’ve got it done right when we said that landlords in ant economic opportunities, not just in the Kootenays and this province will have the right to say who does and does on the Island but for First Nations as well. We got that right. not smoke cannabis and use cannabis in one of their rental One fnal thing. I’d like to remind the member from Kam- units to protect their investment. loops that his predecessor, the former Health Minister, Terry [2:25 p.m.] Lake, was on Global the other night saying we got it right. I’ll Te medical community said we got it right, right at the tell you what. I’ll take his opinion over yours any day. very beginning, when we said that we will not sell cannabis and alcohol in the same outlet, something which you guys ILLEGAL CANNABIS STORE OPERATIONS said needed to happen. I think we got that right. I think we got it right when this side of the House was the only juris- M. Morris: In a couple of days, British Columbians will diction in this country that led the fght to get clarity at the be faced with marijuana becoming legal in B.C. and Canada. border, in terms of people who will be working in a legitim- Tey should have the confdence, when they walk into a ate and legal business in this country. retail outlet, that they’ll be buying a legal product from a I can tell you that in the last few months, once that issue legal establishment. Instead, many will be buying unsafe came to the fore, there were many entrepreneurs who were products supported by trafckers and illegal activity. saying: “Hang on a second. We were looking at investing in To the Minister of Public Safety: how long will you allow cannabis retail in this province. We’ve pulled back because of legal dispensaries to operate outside the law? the uncertainty at the border.” It was this province that got that clarifed, it’s this province that’s been doing it right, and Hon. M. Farnworth: I thank the member for his question. it’s this province that will continue to do it right. We have put in place a number of enforcement provisions, both in legislation and through regulation. As the member Mr. Speaker: Te member for Kamloops–North Tomp- well knows, because we went through this during the legisla- son on a second supplemental. tive part, there will be two key elements of that enforcement. One will be what applies to the legal retail stores. Much P. Milobar: It’s no surprise that outside agencies would the same as alcohol is right now, there will be licensed can- be singing the praises. Tey probably got the memo of what nabis inspectors whose job it will be to ensure legal opera- happens to you if you dissent with the government. tions abide by the laws of the province and of the country. However, internally, Mr. Tomas had much more to say. [2:30 p.m.] Again, two weeks ago: “Please keep us in your hearts, At the same time, there is a second unit, the community because those of us in the civil service are doing our best safety unit, located in my ministry whose job it will be to to make sense of this insanity, and it’s insanity because we do enforcement around illegal operations that currently do haven’t handled it well to date. Tat’s the truth.” Again, from exist and have existed, I might add, in this province for quite two weeks ago. some time, especially when that member sat on this side of If civil servants working on this fle don’t have the confd- the House. 5538 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018

What I’ve also said, and the member knows this, is that [1. Tat the House will sit until 9:00 p.m. on the following dates: enforcement decisions are made by the police. If it’s criminal Monday, October 15 activity being involved, they will have the ability to continue Monday, October 22 criminal investigations, and I have no doubt that they will be Monday, October 29 doing that. Monday, November 5 What we’ve also made clear is that the enforcement is not Monday, November 19 going to be happening overnight — that as legal stores come Monday, November 26 into being, enforcement is going to be ramped up. Tat was 2. If at the hour of 9:00 p.m. on the dates listed above, and the busi- a position that was also enunciated by the chief of the Van- ness of the day is not concluded and no other hour has been agreed on for the next sitting, the Speaker shall leave the Chair until 10 a.m. couver police department just the other day in the media. Tuesday.]

Mr. Speaker: Prince George–Mackenzie on a supple- Before you call the question on that, I also want to mental. assure members that there will be that break from 6:30 to seven. Te House will adjourn at 6:30 and reconvene at M. Morris: I’d like to quote the president of the Cannabis seven o’clock. Commerce Association of Canada. He says: “It’s all a last- minute disaster. I expect that most of the people operating Leave granted. cannabis dispensaries are going to continue selling their grey-market cannabis, and law enforcement is probably Motion approved. going to turn a blind eye.” Again to the minister, how long will he allow both a legal Tabling Documents and illegal retail system to exist in this province? Hon. D. Eby: I have the honour to present the annual Hon. M. Farnworth: Tis is an issue we take extremely report of the B.C. Ferry Commissioner for the fscal year seriously. Tat’s why, when it comes to applications to retail ending March 31, 2018. legal cannabis, there are thorough background checks done. When signals come up, there are deep dives being done, Orders of the Day which is why we’re not rushing to approve licences. We’re making sure that it’s done properly. We’ve also been working Hon. M. Farnworth: I call continued second reading with the police in terms of the best way to approach the debate on Bill 39, the Poverty Reduction Strategy Act. issue, because we are going to get to a fully legal system and [2:35 p.m.] deal with the grey market. When it also comes to that member saying, “We’ve heard [R. Chouhan in the chair.] nothing from the government,” all I’ve got to say is this: what were they doing when they sat on this side of the House and Second Reading of Bills dope dealing was taking place in Robson Square market, and not one word was uttered by that side of the House when BILL 39 — POVERTY REDUCTION they sat on this side of the House? STRATEGY ACT (continued) [End of question period.] Hon. J. Sims: It’s my pleasure today to resume debate on Motions Without Notice the Poverty Reduction Strategy Act legislation — a pleas- ure in the way that I’m so happy to see this legislation being LEGISLATIVE SITTINGS UNTIL debated in this House, though I would have been much hap- 9 P.M. ON MONDAYS pier if this legislation had been introduced a long time ago. Afer years and years of ignoring and, I would say, seriously Hon. M. Farnworth: I’ve got stuf for you. underfunding social programs, what we’re seeing in British Columbia right now is that we have a poverty rate that is Interjection. totally unacceptable. B.C. has the second-worst poverty rate. Usually, we want Hon. M. Farnworth: And it’s legal. Yes, this is. It’s by the to celebrate when we’re second in something, but this is book. not something that we, as British Columbians, want to cel- I have shared this with the Opposition House Leader and ebrate. I’m sure that everyone on both sides of the House the House Leader for the Tird Party. fnds this level of poverty in our beautiful British By leave, I move: Columbia unacceptable. Right here in Canada, in B.C., we have 557,000 people liv- Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5539 ing in poverty. Tat’s over half a million people, and out of you reduce poverty for their families. We know that to break those, a fgure that is absolutely staggering is that 99 per- the poverty cycle takes thoughtful, systematic action. It cent of them are children. As you know, we are one of the doesn’t happen by accident. wealthiest provinces. We are resource rich, and we have, on An investment in reducing child poverty — and also the average, a fairly high income level. It’s because of all of poverty, in general — is an economic investment. We hear a those things that it is so staggering to have a poverty rate that lot from the other side about economic investment. Let me is so high. tell you one of the best economic investments you can make It pleases me that we have, afer many, many years, a for the future is to invest in our children. Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction and We know that children living in poverty are not as well a government that is committed to setting real targets so prepared for school as those who come from homes that are that we can start addressing this very serious issue in our more comfortable. We know that children who are fed and province. are not hungry while they’re trying to learn will perform bet- I’m a mother. I’m a grandmother. As most of you know, I ter at school, therefore improving their chances of having a have been a teacher most of my life. It’s very hard for chil- higher income once they leave school. We also know that dren to understand why they do not have food on the table, there is a very strong correlation between education and why they have to go to school hungry. health. Tere will also be savings in the health sector when I want to refect on that for a little bit. Sometimes when we we invest in reducing child poverty. go a long time when we don’t get our regular meals, we com- Te biggest investment and the biggest beneft is to have plain about being hungry. I’ve heard that even in these hal- children who are not hungry living in British Columbia, to lowed halls — talk about hunger because people have been have children who are excited about going to school to learn busy. Tey haven’t had time to eat. Imagine those who live in and to play with their friends, not children who are worried poverty, who are trying to pay rent, trying to buy clothing or that they are hungry, they haven’t had breakfast and even medication, if they need it, and then knowing they have so supper was light. We’re talking about nutrition as well. We all little, so little that they can spend on food. know what a critical factor nutrition plays in our health and [2:40 p.m.] well-being. All of that is necessary. All of us know that the cost of shelter and food and trans- [2:45 p.m.] portation has gone up incredibly. Our social assistance has I’m so proud to be part of a government that, over the not kept pace with the cost of living or with the cost of hous- last 14 months, has taken considerable steps to rebuild our ing. Because of that, there is a growing number of children social programs. When I go out into my community or travel living in poverty. around the province as minister, I hear from people. “You’re When I talk to people who are not from Canada…. When making a diference. Government is making a diference.” they look into who we are, they fnd it hard to believe that Whether it comes to child care…. People are saying that now even in a country as rich as Canada, we have such dire because of the new child care policies in place: “I can actu- poverty levels — that the gap between the rich and poor is ally go out to work, and because of the savings I’m making, growing and that here in Canada, we have a growing number I can actually aford to spend more on my children, more at of people who are the working poor. It’s where the mom and the dinner table.” And that is a good thing. dad are both working, but despite that, because the cost of Over the last year, thousands of people have moved into living and the cost of housing are so high, they are still con- new afordable homes. I was in my riding, in my city of Sur- sidered to be living well below the poverty line. rey, the other day when an event was held to celebrate the If you want to address an issue, we could all make work that has been done on homelessness. To have the tent speeches and then just go home. But you and I know, Mr. city, which was a real embarrassment and sadness in Sur- Speaker, that if you want to bring about change, not only do rey…. But in Whalley, that tent city — it was just unbearable you need good policy but you need to set targets. I’m proud to walk down there. of the targets that our government is setting, targets that will I visited that many times while I was a Member of Parlia- ensure that over the next fve years, we will reduce the over- ment and even afer that. To have that area now cleaned up all poverty rate by 25 percent and the child poverty rate by and to know that every one of those people are now in hous- 50 percent. ing where they have a room, where they can close the door, Tere are those who will be questioning why it is going where they have their own bathroom — that’s what our gov- to take so long. Tat’s because the previous government so ernment has been doing. grossly underfunded, for such a long time, social programs We know that MSP premiums being cut in half is also and did not keep pace with the cost of living for social assist- helping families. And the minimum wage is going to go up. ance. Wages were artifcially suppressed. It is hard to make Tere isn’t one magic pill to address poverty. It’s a multi- up that defcit of 16 long years in a very short time. faceted approach. Our government is coming at it from that What we have taken is a very reasonable approach where angle. Part of that is having a strategy with frm, frm num- there are defnite targets, and we are focusing on reducing bers to make sure that we do reduce the poverty. poverty for children. When you reduce poverty for children, It’s always great to have dreams and aspirations because 5540 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 that’s what motivates us. It motivates me that we’re work- B.C. Liberals ignoring and underfunding social programs, ing on a plan to get rid of child poverty and poverty per the result has been that British Columbia has the second- se. It motivates me more when I know that that plan just worst poverty rate in Canada. isn’t a dream over the next hundred years but that we have Our government has introduced the poverty reduction concrete targets for the next fve years. And it holds all of strategy precisely because today, in British Columbia, there us to account to make sure that we meet those levels that are 550,000 people who are living in poverty, and 99,000 of we have set. them are children. It goes without saying that having over I don’t want to have to try to explain to my children and half a million people living in poverty and having 100,000 my grandchildren why they are living in beautiful British kids, almost, living in poverty, is not good for children. It’s Columbia and we are not doing anything to address child not good for people. It’s not good for the economy. It’s not poverty. And I want to say to them: “Look, you have a gov- good for our province. ernment right now that is addressing child poverty, has frm Tis poverty reduction bill is long, long overdue. It is targets. You know what? In fve years, we will have reduced indeed a sad statistic for a province as wealthy as British child poverty by 50 years.” My granddaughter still thinks Columbia is. Despite our strong economy, too many that’s going to take too long, and I agree with her. I agree people have been lef behind. Tat’s why we have with her. developed British Columbia’s frst poverty reduction I won’t go into the situation we were lef with by the previ- strategy. I want to take the opportunity to congratulate the ous government which, for 16 long years, failed to make the Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction, investments — and I would say economic investments — in who frst introduced legislation in this House through a the people of British Columbia. private member’s bill in 2011. Finally today we have a I know that many people will join me, whether they’re sit- legislated poverty reduction strategy. It certainly marks a ting at home or across the House. Tere is no reason why we turning point in our province. It is a historic frst step that would have children living in poverty. Let me share with you sets out very bold poverty reduction targets. a story that was told to me by one of my constituents, who I’ve had the opportunity, since we were a week not in was a teacher. this House, to be back in the community, and I can tell you [2:50 p.m.] that an awful lot of people I’ve spoken with in my com- What this teacher said to me was: “You know, Jinny, what munity of New Westminster but also other people in the I fnd one of the hardest things to do every single day” — province — people involved with mental health and addic- she teaches in an inner-city school, by the way — “is when tions and people involved with housing and homelessness I go to school and I know that I haven’t met the needs of — are very, very moved. Tey’re very emotional about this the kids. I feel a sense of failure, no matter how hard I try. step that our government is taking, because it’s been a very, And most of my stress comes in because I know that the chil- very long time coming. dren who walk into my class bring with them the impacts We’ve had 16 years of neglect. We’ve seen bus pass claw- of the isms that have hit us, whether it’s poverty, whether it’s backs. We’ve seen no help for people living with disabil- racism, whether it’s homophobia.” ities and people on social assistance. Essentially, the most She said: “All of those things are hard, but I have no vulnerable in our society have been ignored by the B.C. answer when a child asks me, ‘Why is it that we don’t have Liberals. So it is so exciting that as part of this poverty enough food?’” She said that there are other children sitting reduction plan, we’ve set very, very bold targets. Tey are in the class who then write her notes. In her class there are bold. Our targets are to reduce the overall poverty rate in children who bring fruit from home. It’s not so that they can British Columbia by 25 percent and to reduce the child eat it. Tey bring fruit into the classroom so that their class- poverty rate by 50 percent. mates can eat it. [2:55 p.m.] We have teachers, we have social workers, and we have Tese are not just numbers. Tese are people’s lives. Tey students who realize what impact hunger has. You just have are the lives of people in every constituency across this to go and see the lineups in the food banks. Tat is why I province — whether you sit on the government side, wheth- think that for the sake of our children, we have to all unan- er you sit on the opposition side or whether you represent imously support this plan. the Tird Party. How can we expect children to succeed in school if they Hon. J. Darcy: I’m very pleased to rise in my place to come to class hungry? Tat’s happening. Tat’s happening discuss the Poverty Reduction Strategy Act legislation. It for almost 100,000 children who are living in poverty. We is, indeed, a historic time in the Legislature of British know that children who live in poverty don’t do nearly as Columbia. Tere are a lot of eyes on this place — people well in life as children who are not living in poverty, that both in British Columbia and people across the country, but poverty negatively afects their health outcomes, their edu- especially people in British Columbia and especially people cation outcomes, and it traps them in a poverty cycle. We who have been living in poverty. Teir eyes are certainly have to begin to break that cycle that keeps people trapped in on this Legislature as we debate this bill. Afer years of the Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5541 poverty from one generation to the next. Tat’s exactly what I could go on about this for some time — all of the initiat- the poverty reduction strategy aims to do. ives our government has taken already. Let me mention one We also know that poverty disproportionately afects Indi- last one, and that’s child care. When we have taken…. Tis is genous people in this province. Tis is critically important the frst new social program in British Columbia in an entire and has certainly been welcomed by First Nations and Indi- generation. genous organizations across the province, because they [3:00 p.m.] know very well that when you lif up children, you lif up the It’s important for all children. It’s important for families. entire family. It’s important for the economy. But it is especially important I think it’s really important — the process that the Min- for vulnerable kids, because it means that those children who ister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction under- are living in poverty, those children who are now severely took, which was an extensive consultation throughout the disadvantaged, will have the same opportunities as other province of British Columbia. Tis strategy was directly children to universal, afordable, quality child care. Tat will informed by listening to people living in poverty across Brit- enable them to get a good start in life. All of these measures ish Columbia as well as organizations involved in supporting about helping to lif people out of poverty but also breaking the most vulnerable people in our society. the poverty cycle and creating pathways of hope to people Tey held consultations in dozens of communities, and who are afected. people in my community and others that I’ve spoken with When I was frst elected fve years ago, one of the frst stor- really said — and they’ve said this over and over again, about ies that I heard was from a single mom in my community the poverty reduction strategy consultations but also about who was living in poverty. She had three young children. She other consultations that our government has been involved told me that she couldn’t aford to buy new clothes for them. in — that they are feeling listened to for the frst time. Tey had secondhand clothes, hand-me-downs. But one day, Tey’re feeling listened to for the frst time in a very, very as a result of an efort by a local charitable organization in long time. I know that the minister himself and the member our community, she was able to get a brand-new coat for for Vancouver-Kensington attended all of those sessions. her son. Her son was so excited. He put this coat on, and he Tis strategy, of course, the poverty reduction strategy, didn’t want to take it of. is just one component of what we’re doing. We got started He went to bed that night. When he got up the next morn- really early on. Within weeks of when our government was ing to go to school, he went to put on the coat, and he sworn into ofce, we were already beginning to act on issues noticed that the cost of the coat, the price tags, had been that afect the working poor and that afect people who are taken of. He wept and he wept and he wept, and she couldn’t living in poverty. understand why. He explained to her, through his tears, that On the medical services premium, which is an issue that he wanted to go to school wearing the coat with the price I’ve heard about over and over and over again in my con- tags on so that he could tell the kids in school that he fnally stituency ofce — reducing it frst by 50 percent, and then had a new coat — because living in poverty was so stigmatiz- it will be eliminated altogether. Raising the minimum wage ing and always having clothes that were visibly secondhand — because work should lif you out of poverty, not keep you clothes, hand-me-downs, was stigmatizing. there. Increasing the minimum wage and getting it to $15 an In addition to the direct benefts to kids, to families, hour is a really important step forward. about lifing them out of poverty, this issue of stigmatizing Te work that my colleague the Minister of Municipal people who live with poverty is also huge, because that Afairs and Housing has been doing has been truly ground- leads to so many other issues afecting young people and breaking for British Columbians but also in our country. As afecting families. you have heard the minister herself say and as I have had Too ofen families living in poverty are forced to make the opportunity to also tell people across this province, we unacceptable choices. We’ve all heard them, people who are well on our way to meeting the commitment of 2,000 come to our constituency ofces and say: “I had to choose temporary modular homes for people who were previously this month between paying for medication or having some homeless. Te minister responsible has announced that we healthy food in the House.” Or single moms saying: “You will be moving ahead with 2,500 more units of modular know, I feed my kids frst and I eat last, if there’s anything housing, and very importantly, those modular housing pro- lef over, because there’s nothing more important than them grams have mental health and addiction supports that are having food in their mouths.” People end up choosing and embedded in them. making what are unacceptable choices. We’ve taken action on MSP. We’ve taken action on redu- Tere are many people…. I don’t know who said it frst, cing the minimum wage, taken action on homelessness as but the true mark of a society is how it treats its most vul- a frst step — but tackling afordable housing in a number nerable people. A poverty reduction strategy surely is a sign of ways. We increased support to youth aging out of care, a of our society and about how it’s going to treat the most vul- group in our society that is at great risk of moving into a life nerable people in our society. It is about lifing people out of poverty, moving into mental illness and substance use and of poverty and giving them a leg up so that they can have a moving into being homeless. So that was a critical piece. pathway to hope. 5542 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018

I was looking back at some of the comments that were physical disabilities or whether those are mental health or made by members of the opposition when the House met substance use challenges. All of these are absolutely about last. I read some comments from the member for Chilli- lifing people out of poverty, creating pathways to hope. For wack-Kent, who said — I’m glad that the member opposite some people, for as many people as possible, that pathway to is in the House — that he wanted to talk about a fundament- hope involves supportive employment. al diference…. Te other issue that I want to touch on is the very close connection between poverty and mental health and addic- Interjection. tion. Every survey, every study that has been done on the subject tells us that the overwhelming majority of people Hon. J. Darcy: Okay. My apologies. who are living in poverty are also struggling with mental What the member for Chilliwack-Kent said, on the illness or addiction and that the overwhelming number of record, was that he thought there was “a basic diference in people who are homeless are also struggling with mental perspective” between our two parties. “Our party thinks less health and addictions. about poverty production and more about wealth creation Tere was a report that came out recently, a survey that and economic development.” Te phrase “poverty reduc- was done of homeless youth that was related to the home- tion,” he said, “sort of suggests that we accept poverty as a less count in the Metro Vancouver area. Te fgures there fact of life,” and: “We’re just going to reduce its harm by put- were really startling. Between 60 and 70 percent of youth ting a few more of taxpayers’ dollars into people’s pockets.” who were homeless were dealing with a mental health Nothing could be farther from the truth. We all know issue, and around 50 percent were also struggling with about a poverty cycle that can continue from parents to chil- substance use issues. dren and to new generations. Surely, what’s important is that If someone is struggling…. Tis is a quote that comes we give people the opportunity to move out of poverty and directly from the consultation that the Minister of Social to be able to live diferent lives. Development and Poverty Reduction was involved in. One [3:05 p.m.] of the people who took part said: “If someone is struggling I know that the Minister of Social Development and with addiction and wants help, they seem to have so many Poverty Reduction is working very, very hard on programs overwhelming hoops to jump through before they can get that do exactly that: give people who are now living in assistance.” Other people who took part said things to this poverty and who are able to work the opportunity to work. I efect: “Poverty negatively afects everyone, especially the know that we’ll be hearing more about this in the months to mentally ill.” come from the minister responsible. At the same time that we ofer various housing supports, In the Work B.C. program, for instance, there’s an invest- at the same time as we ofer income supports, at the same ment of $2 billion over six years in employment supports. time as we ofer greater opportunities for training and skills Tat is focused, in particular, on people who are living with development for people to be able to gain employment, we disabilities but also on women who are trying to fee are working hand in hand with the Minister of Social Devel- violence. For women to be able to say no, they need to have opment and Poverty Reduction and hand in hand with the the opportunity to have economic independence — having Minister of Municipal Afairs and Housing in order to roofs over their heads, which is something that the Minis- ensure that the mental health and addictions supports are ter of Municipal Afairs and Housing has been working very also there for people. Tese issues are integrally linked, and hard on doing, including in my community. we can’t do one without the other. I’m very proud to say that in my community, our city We know that if people are on long wait-lists — and they council has embraced this. Tey have taken courageous lead- have been on long wait-lists because of years of neglect of ership in saying that it is critically important that we support our system of mental health and addictions — it can only women at risk. We need to have the services and supports lead to their lives spiralling downward and out of control. I there in our community, but they also, frst and foremost, can’t tell you how many people I have met with personally, need to have roofs over their heads. how many people I’ve spoken with personally, who are today I know that the Minister of Social Development and living with opioid addiction, who are today living poor and Poverty Reduction — I was just speaking with him about living homeless, who talk about the struggles that they’re this a little bit earlier — has really expanded the work of the facing with addiction. presidents group, which is a group of major CEOs in this [3:10 p.m.] province, specifcally about how to create more employment Many of these people began…. Some of them worked in opportunities for people who are now living in poverty, for trades and transport. Some of them worked in the forestry people with disabilities. industry. Tey worked in a wide variety of industries. Some- Of course, it doesn’t just mean saying: “You have to go and times the downward spiral began with a workplace injury, take this job.” It means working with employers to ensure sometimes with a car accident and, at one point or another, that workplaces are supportive, are accommodating of turned to street drugs and opioid addiction. Tese people are people who are living with disabilities — whether those are now living poor, and many of them are also homeless. Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5543

It’s absolutely critical that we navigate mental illness and debate. I know that all of my colleagues are very proud to poverty at the same time, and that we navigate mental illness stand and to participate in this debate, given that it’s been a and poverty and substance use and homelessness and the long time coming. Tere have been years of chronic ignoring lack of afordable housing at the same time. Certainly, the and underfunding of the social programs that really has led people that were consulted in the process of developing this this province to have real signifcant problems around the strategy talked, over and over again, about how poverty and poverty rate. uncertainty worsened their mental health and made it [3:15 p.m.] harder for them to live full lives. When you think about the fact that we have 100,000 chil- Communities, big and small — communities represented dren in this province who go to bed hungry, I’m mortifed. by people on this side of the House, represented by members And I know that British Columbians are mortifed. And it’s of the Tird Party and represented by members opposite embarrassing, frankly. We have a lot of work to do because — all contributed in this process, and the message was the there’s been so much neglect over the years. same. Te message was the same. I’m, frankly, surprised that I’m very proud of my colleague, the Minister of Social we aren’t hearing members opposite talking about the stor- Development and Poverty Reduction, for his work in going ies in their own communities about people who are living out and consulting very broadly, right across the province, in poverty and their calls for help, which our government is with people who have lived in poverty and people who serve fnally answering. others who live in poverty, and for making sure that they In the course of the consultations that the minister understood that we understood what it was that people responsible was engaged in, he also heard an awful lot about needed, what it is that will make a diference. the importance of early identifcation and intervention ser- You know, in my work as a family therapist, I’ve always vices for youth who experience trauma and mental health queried: “How much of a diference is enough of a difer- issues. Tat’s one of the pieces that we’re going to be acting ence?” Right? Because when people struggle with whatever on. We have said from the beginning we’re taking a whole- it is they’re struggling with, sometimes it’s just a little bit of of-government approach to these issues. Te Minister of help that they need to get over that hump. I can think of Social Development and Poverty Reduction works closely some of the clients that I have worked with over the years with me and other ministers on our mental health and where, in fact, that was true. addictions strategy. We all work very closely with the Min- I can think of…. In my community, in Coquitlam, there ister of Municipal Afairs and Housing on the strategy for was a story of a man who was living in poverty and who housing and homelessness. found himself homeless. He participated in a cold/wet We have to do it in an integrated way. Tese are not sep- weather map program in my community, where the local arate issues. Tese are issues that we need to tackle at one churches were opening up their doors to allow people who and the same time. I’m very, very proud. I’m very honoured were homeless to have a dry, warm place to stay at night. It to have the opportunity to rise and to speak to this historic was controversial at the time when this program was under- piece of legislation in the province of British Columbia. It is way, but it was a very successful program. something that is long overdue. It is something that is good Tere was one particular story that stood out of a gentle- for the people afected. In particular, it will mean that when man who was staying out of the elements, staying overnight we reach our goals — and they are ambitious goals — we will in a local church. Somebody asked him how he found him- fnally someday soon be able to have children go to school self here in this place, where he didn’t have enough money to without being hungry. Tat means that children will have pay rent. He didn’t have enough money to get a bus ticket to the opportunity to learn in the same way — have the same visit with his family. He had reached the bottom. opportunities to learn and to thrive and to prosper — as oth- He said: “You know, I have two hands. I am strong. I can er children do. work. But I can’t go to a worksite without work boots, and I Te more supports that we can give to people living in can’t get enough money to buy work boots if I can’t get a job.” poverty today — whether that’s income support, whether Tis was the barrier. I remember hearing this story about that’s housing, whether that’s support for mental health and how this volunteer said, “Well, what size are you?” and went addictions, whether it’s child care or an increase in the min- and got this gentleman work boots, and he was soon on a imum wage — is good for the economy of British Columbia. jobsite. For some people, that is what they need. Tis is a win-win, and I would dearly love to see members I can think of another family, a family that I worked with opposite standing up and joining us and having this entire when I worked at SHARE Family and Community Services. House unanimously support the need for a poverty reduc- I remember getting a referral from this family that said that tion strategy and work with us rather than against us in the daughter, who was going to school, was sort of letting meeting the very ambitious goals — bold goals but goals that their teacher know that things weren’t well at home — that we absolutely need to reach. Dad had lost his job and that their heat, hydro, had been cut of. It was just around Tanksgiving, so it was getting cold. Hon. S. Robinson: I’m very proud to rise in support of And because they had no lights, it would get dark. By sev- the Poverty Reduction Strategy Act on this second reading en o’clock, 7:30, it was getting dark. Tey were studying by 5544 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 candlelight, and it was really hard. Tis was a good student, Here was this woman who was coming for counselling so and she wasn’t as prepared as she had been. she could be a better parent for her children, and she was Te teacher contacted the organization. We reached out to struggling with poverty. Te biggest issue for Naomi and for fnd out what it was that this family needed. What was the her four children was that they were poor. It wasn’t going to barrier? You know, it turns out that it was a single dad with get any easier for her. All the counselling in the world wasn’t three children, and he had lost…. He had gotten injured on going to take care of the poverty that they were facing. What the job, and he was in transition in terms of getting Work- worries me — and here we are 20 years later, taking a look at Safe, but in the meantime, he had fallen behind on his bills. this, fnally having a poverty reduction strategy — is that it’s So hydro was cut of. too late for Naomi’s children. What it meant, for him…. Te barrier for him and his I suspect that Naomi’s children are old enough now to family was $200. It was $200 that was going to make the have families of their own. I have lost touch with Naomi. diference to this family and keep them from losing We know that there’s a cycle of poverty, and it’s very likely everything, everything that they had worked hard for. that Naomi’s children are poor. I want to make sure that Again, the organization stepped up. It’s not the mandate of her grandchildren have the opportunities that weren’t the organization, but they said: “We don’t want you falling aforded to Naomi as a parent and weren’t aforded to into signifcant poverty.” If $200 was going to keep the heat Naomi’s children. and the lights on and make a diference, then that’s what It’s important that we have a poverty reduction strategy they were going to do. to address these kinds of issues because it’s not just about Here are a couple of examples of what I would call short- numbers. It’s not just about 100,000 children. It’s about their term interim poverty, where we can actually take action and opportunity. It’s their lives — to have a diferent trajectory, a keep people from having things get worse. diferent course of action. I have another story that I’d like to share with the House. Now, in the interim, given that we are very late to this Tis one is one that has been near and dear to my heart. It’s poverty reduction table…. You know, the rest of Canada a story about Naomi. Naomi came in to see me about coun- seems to recognize, the rest of the provinces seem to recog- selling when I worked at the Jewish Family Service Agency nize, that it’s really important to have a coordinated strategy back in the ’90s. She was coming to see me because she was and to have targets because that’s important to move for- having a hard time parenting her son. She has four children. ward. You don’t know where you’re going if you don’t know She would come in, and she would be distant in our coun- where you’re headed, so it’s really important that we know selling conversations. She would not be able to focus. where we’re headed. [3:20 p.m.] It’s really been community groups that have flled in the I would ask her how things were going. “You seem to be void. I want to give a shout-out to the many community having a hard time participating. What’s going on?” She said groups that have been flling in the gaps in the interim until she hadn’t eaten in 48 hours. “Well, why? Why haven’t you they could get a government that actually cared about mak- eaten in 48 hours?” She said: “Because there’s no food in the ing sure that children had enough food in their bellies so house.” She didn’t eat so that her kids could eat. Tis woman they could learn properly. did not eat anything substantial because she wanted to make I want to talk about two groups in my community that sure that her kids ate. I started to get really curious about her have done an outstanding job. I want to talk about the Share life and about the choices that she had to make so that her food bank. I worked for Share for a number of years before four kids could have what they needed. I became an MLA. I think it’s really important to recognize Te story of Naomi is long, a story of poverty for a long where food banks came from. When things were very dif- time. She was raped at a young age and has lived with trauma cult in the ’80s, during a recession, they were supposed to be her entire life, taken advantage of her entire life. She was a “temporary” relief for families that were really struggling. married for a short period of time, about eight years, and had Tey’ve become permanent fxtures in our communities. four children in those eight years. Her husband was violent. Frankly, when I worked for Share — I was a fundraiser for She had the wherewithal not to protect herself but to protect the organization — I would get so frustrated about having to her children. When he turned on her oldest son, she said: beg people to contribute money to the food bank and con- “Tat’s it. We’re out of here.” Naomi is an amazing mom. tribute goods to the food bank because it’s not an answer to She had been struggling every day since. She had taken poverty. It’s an answer to help fll bellies. But that’s not the advantage of the opportunity for subsidized housing. She answer; the answer is to help people move out of poverty. managed to make that happen. She had somebody give her [3:25 p.m.] a car, but because it’s expensive to insure a car, she would Jobs are absolutely a key component, but jobs themselves only insure it for the four months of the worst weather so are not enough. If children can’t learn, if children don’t have that she could get her kids around. Tey could not have the capacity to focus in school, if they’re not getting the to be in the wet elements as she was helping them get to nutrition that they need, if they’re hearing their parents fght whatever programs she could actually identify for them on because the stress of poverty is destroying the fabric of their a very limited income. Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5545 family, then how are they going to learn the skills to have the plan to not have a poverty reduction strategy. We need to job that pays the bills? actually look at this in a much broader perspective. Tis is much bigger and much more complex than jobs. We need to make sure that people are ready, that they have [L. Reid in the chair.] the supports they need, that they have the opportunities. I go back to the single dad whose hydro was cut of, right? I’m very proud of the work that we’re doing together, Here was a dad who had a job. He got injured in the work- recognizing the housing component, that we’d already place, but there were not enough supports for him to con- started on when we formed government. We started in tinue to pay his bills. He was at the very, very edge of falling September with signifcant increases, recognizing that we down the poverty rabbit hole, which would grab a hold and need to address those who are most vulnerable, those who suck this family down. So it’s really important that we have a are homeless. broad sense of what it means to have a poverty strategy. I’m very proud of the fact that, in under a year, we Te food banks have been outstanding. I remember saying were able to commit 2,000 units of modular supportive I want to put food banks out of business. I don’t want there housing for those who are most vulnerable. We still have to be families that have to turn to a food bank because they more to do. Tose programs are…. Many of them have don’t have enough money in their pockets to go buy food at been opened. Hundreds and hundreds of them have been a grocery store like everybody else. Tat’s not the answer to opened. We’re seeing the impact that’s making in Surrey poverty. and Vancouver. More are opening here on the Island, in In my community, the frefghters do a gala every year. Parksville and Cowichan. It’s coming up on October 27, and I look forward to joining [3:30 p.m.] them. But I always go with a heavy heart. I go with a heavy We’re going to continue to open up these homes in the heart because they talk about…. What they are doing is rais- north, in Smithers and in Queen Charlotte. We’ve got some ing money to feed children who are poor. Tey want to feed coming up in Richmond. Tis is really, really important — them with a nutritional breakfast and snack program at four making sure that we can provide for the people who are of the schools in my community in Coquitlam. really, really challenged. Tey don’t even have enough I have tremendous respect for their eforts to make sure resources to have a roof over their head, so we’re already that children are eating, but I want to put them out of this starting to take steps to address that. business too. It’s not okay that we have children going to More than that, we’re investing in housing for others. I school hungry and that our frefghters…. I mean, I’m grate- was talking about Naomi, who had fed a violent situation in ful that they are doing charitable work, and I think it’s won- order to protect her four children. I think it’s important to derful that they want to give back to the community but not recognize that it’s been 20 years since there’s been any invest- around this. Tey should raise money for lots of other things, ment in housing for women feeing violence. but this one, I think, is one that all British Columbians need Our government has committed signifcant resources to to rally behind and make sure that it works better. make sure that those women and those children have the I want to take a few minutes to talk a little bit about what it opportunity to have a safe place to call home. Tat comes means to have a poverty reduction strategy. Tis act sets out with transitional housing, so they have a couple of years to the requirements and commitments. But we need to remem- get their feet underneath them, to fgure out what their next ber, because it’s such a complex problem…. Because of what steps are so that they can make sure that their needs are met the minister and the parliamentary secretary heard on the and so that they don’t fall into this travesty of poverty that road, we know that it’s about a number of issues. really takes a hold of families for years and years and gener- It’s why I’m so proud of the work that we’re doing in tan- ations. We need to be able to intervene. dem with the Minister of Social Development and Poverty We’ve done this also with our Indigenous housing fund. Reduction in recognizing that housing is a key component We’ve had dozens and dozens of proposals on this fund, of poverty reduction. It’s absolutely critical. We’ve certainly making sure that we can provide housing for the Indigenous heard, from the report that the minister did…. Te theme people in British Columbia both on and of reserve. What that came up, I think, in every single one of their community the report has shown, and we’ve heard this before, is that meetings was housing. Housing eats up, in some cases, 50, Indigenous people are absolutely overrepresented in the 60, 70 percent of people’s incomes. Tat is really…. number of people who are poor. Making sure that they have You can’t sustain that. You can’t sustain that for a number housing will help ease some of those challenges. of reasons. You can’t, then, take care of your family. You can’t We also have had almost 150 proposals for afordable rent- make sure they’re getting nutritious food. You can’t pay your al homes for families and seniors throughout the entire bills. It also means that you can’t participate in the local eco- province. Tat’s almost $2 billion of housing that we’re com- nomy. You can’t go out to restaurants. You can’t get haircuts. mitted to delivering for those families, 14,000 units. Families You can’t buy products. You can’t use services. Tat means have been struggling. that the local economy starts to sufer too. So it’s really a bad I think of the single dad who was at risk of losing his job. He was in between. He’d been injured in the workplace. I 5546 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 think about the diference having that kind of housing would diferent angles, because really, you can’t just attack it with have made for him. His hydro wouldn’t have been cut of if one answer. Tere’s no one answer that’s going to fx poverty. he’d had more afordable rent. It’s multi-pronged. It’s about making life better for British Tis is about real people, real people who have been strug- Columbians. gling every day. When I think about Naomi…. I remember I’m very proud to support this legislation going forward, hearing from some people in my life who said: “You know, and I would expect everybody in this House to support this people have to be willing to work hard. Working hard is what legislation. Tis is about children, and we need to all get gets you out of poverty.” behind whatever it takes to make sure that children have Well, Naomi and the single dad are two of the hardest- what they need to grow and to thrive. working people I think I’ve ever met. Sometimes it’s not about hard work. I try to think about Naomi’s day. When I N. Simons: I appreciate this opportunity to speak on Bill asked her what her day was like, she talked about getting up 39, Poverty Reduction Strategy Act. Having sat in this cham- and getting the kids ready. Oatmeal was always the breakfast ber since 2005, it’s been a recurring theme. It’s been a recur- because it’s very inexpensive, but there was no brown sugar ring request. It’s been a recurring urging of the then oppos- and there was no milk, so they had to eat it a little bit thick. ition party to engage in some sort of process where we can She would make it more watery so that it was a little bit more actually make a plan to reduce poverty, not just hope that palatable because she couldn’t aford those as extras. It was a some sort of vague job strategy’s going to do it. It’s knowing limited supply. full well that a job strategy may, in fact, be focused on jobs, Also, even shopping, she would trek from store to store. but it isn’t about reducing the amount of poverty for children She would check coupons to fnd out…. If she went to one and families who are living in poverty now. place, she can get toilet paper cheaper, but she’d have to go to Let’s point out that half the people living in poverty, as another place because mac and cheese was on sale. For her, measured by the market basket measure, are working poor it was a day of squeezing every single penny out so that she — people who are working, people who are in the workforce. could stretch her very meagre dollars. Te idea that we can accomplish a strategic reduction in the Tis is what we’re talking about. Tese are the people that number of children and families living in poverty without a we’re talking about. Te kind of investments we’re making in plan is, obviously, impossible. housing, the kind of investments we’re making in child care It may be what the opposition would like us to do. I’m help ease that burden for these families so that they could hearing mixed messages. But I believe that it would be dif- make their dollars stretch further, so they could take care of cult to object to simply having a strategy to try to address the their children in the ways that they want to take care of them. fundamental structural problems that result in such a signi- Tere are other ways that our government has looked at fcant amount of poverty in our province. how to reduce poverty, whether it’s eliminating the MSP, We can argue over whether we’re the second or third or raising the minimum wage, eliminating the tolls on the two fourth or ffh. To me, that really doesn’t matter. As long as bridges. What was interesting was talking to families in there are children and families and individuals experiencing Maple Ridge and in Surrey. Traditionally, that’s been where poverty in this province of great wealth, it’s our responsibil- the most afordable housing has been in the Lower Main- ity and it’s our duty to try and address that. To hope, to cling land. But then you added in the tolls…. Remember that to some sort of vague hope that other strategies are going to these places aren’t well served by transit — we’re working on address this issue, I think, is foolish. I think it’s shortsighted, that as well — so that meant needing a car, and it also meant lacks imagination and is not exactly a very compassionate having to pay tolls. approach. It’s not a realistic approach. [3:35 p.m.] Te idea that the only way to reduce poverty is to provide It actually hit the people who were really doing their best incentives is, again, without imagination. It’s callous and to try to make ends meet. Tey had these added expenses. does not refect the values of the current government of Brit- Tat was a cost burden that nobody else…. If you were living ish Columbia. I don’t believe it refects the values of most on the west side of Vancouver, you didn’t have to pay those. members of the opposition either. So I fnd it pretty surpris- If you were living in West Van or North Van, you didn’t have ing that, even in their very limited discussion of this bill, they to pay those. So here it was: where you had the most aford- seem to be uninterested in commenting on this, other than able housing was where these people, if they managed to get to say that it isn’t going to work. a job, had to commute and had to pay these tolls. It really was I think, really, it’s obvious that the opposition just wants to quite a burden. maybe duck and hide afer considering their record for the I think it’s really important here that British Columbians last 16 years. It was 16 years of the problems getting worse, will no longer have to hang their heads in shame at having not getting any better. such a high poverty rate when we have such a thriving eco- Seriously, I don’t understand…. nomy. Tey get to actually be proud of the province they live in, because we are putting a plan together. It’s a multimin- Interjections. istry plan that attacks a very signifcant problem from many Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5547

N. Simons: Well, it seems that I’ve hit a nerve. If they in poverty, people we ofen call vulnerable, people we call have any evidence to suggest that they made any specifc the have-nots. I think that one thing for sure is that British eforts to reduce poverty in our communities, they should Columbians are resilient. British Columbians of all econom- show it to us. Tey should actually have the internal forti- ic levels are resilient. We have the capability in this province tude instead of chirping from behind their benches like to address this issue. I think now that we have a government cowards. Tey should really just speak to the issue, maybe that’s committed to doing so, we should celebrate that. take an opportunity to explain their record for the last 16 Now, obviously, this has been an issue that was dis- years. Why don’t you? cussed in the past under the previous government. When I was on the Select Standing Committee on Children and Interjections. Youth, my frst go-round on that committee, we held hear- [3:40 p.m.] ings into poverty reduction. Some of the members oppos- ite might not remember because they might not have been N. Simons: Yeah, it’d be nice. Some of you might under- here, but we did. stand it but obviously not the ones chirping now. Tey may Members of the opposition were in the majority on the not have seen poverty. Maybe they’re just not used to dis- Children and Youth Committee, and this was a topic of dis- cussing these issues. It’s uncomfortable for them, because cussion we all agreed needed to be aired. We held hearings, they don’t really know what it is. Tat’s what I suspect is the and we concluded that, in fact, this was a serious concern in problem. Tey can chirp all they want. It’s not like I’m not British Columbia. used to it. Maybe they’ve changed their minds since then. I doubt Te issue at hand is whether or not this government has it. Why would they? It was 2010. Tings haven’t gotten that the ability, has the fortitude and has the desire to address much better. Obviously, our government is doing a lot to some of the social inequalities that exist in our province. If address the fact that services have been cut for so many in they don’t want to be part of that, they can vote against this so many ways and that the cost of living has increased and strategy, as they’re likely to do, because they don’t want to wages haven’t, really. admit their failure. Maybe that’s just an ego thing. I trust it is, I think that in looking back at their predecessors, they judging from the comments and who they’re coming from. might learn something. Important hearings were held in I’m, quite honestly, very proud of the fact that our govern- Vancouver and discussions held here in Victoria to try and ment, early in its mandate, has decided that this is something address some of issues that are raised in the discussion that we’re going to maintain as a core strategy to try to around child poverty reduction. address the inequality that exists in a higher rate than many [3:45 p.m.] other provinces with far fewer resources, far fewer mechan- Te Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth isms at their disposal to address this. We have the ability to heard from a number of witnesses: Dr. Evan Adams; Julia do this. It’s our responsibility to try. I would have expected Norton; Steve Kerstetter and John Millar from First Call; Dr. that it would’ve been widely accepted as an appropriate Paul Kershaw; Seth Klein; Mary Collins; Barbara Kamin- approach. sky; Noelle Virtue of the B.C. Healthy Living Alliance; Dr. Being the only province in this country without a poverty Michael Prince, Lansdowne Professor of Social Policy at the reduction strategy should be an embarrassment to the oppo- University of Victoria; and Dr. Carol Matusicky, director of sition that exists now. It should be an embarrassment, Burnaby Family Life. Each presenter was given questions because quite frankly, it wasn’t due to the lack of inform- ahead of time and asked to provide their input on issues ation. It was due to their ideological principles that they around poverty in British Columbia, an issue that was recog- thought they couldn’t do anything about it. Tey obviously nized as important in 2010 that, apparently, is less important failed to even consider doing something about it, which is now, for some reason, in the minds of the opposition. But it’s really too bad. obviously high on the list of priorities for our current gov- If you think about it, a child born in 2001 lived for 14 years ernment. until 2014…. For 17 years, they lived under a government Dr. Adams recommended that the committee include that really didn’t care about them. When you talk to kids recommending to government to commit to greater Abori- who’ve lived under this government for that length of time, ginal self-determination. Tat was one of the recommenda- you know that they’ve not been given the same opportunities tions he made. I’m glad that our government is actually tak- as other children in other provinces. It’s probably just a little ing steps in that direction. bit of a defensiveness from them that they realize this is on Make economic development a priority. Economic devel- their watch, that poverty has maintained a foothold in this opment is obviously working well under this government. province that they were unwilling to even attempt to address. Tere seems to be signifcant confdence in the investment I’m pleased that our government, with the Ministry of climate. We’ve seen recently the investment in three Catalyst Social Development and Poverty Reduction, has taken this mills. Tat’s a good sign. important step. LNG investment is something else that makes many Now, I’ve worked a lot of my career with people who live people very pleased. Tat’ll create employment and educa- 5548 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 tional opportunities, which was exactly what Dr. Evan In August 2009, obviously as a result of seeing what she Adams recommended. had seen in her role as representative, Mary Ellen Turpel- Work on issues around housing and physical environ- Lafond wrote about the importance of a clear plan. She star- ment. Clearly, we understand that to be part of the issue. It’s ted her editorial with: “If there is truth in the basic principle necessary to have a strategy putting these issues together and that society is judged on how we treat our most vulnerable, trying to fgure out a strategy. B.C.’s lack of progress in reducing child poverty should pro- Usually, the opposition talks about needing to have well- voke a lot of soul-searching.” laid-out plans. Here’s a well-laid-out plan to begin this pro- Tat soul-searching may have happened. It may not have. cess of implementing a strategy that’ll have a positive impact I’m sure that there were members of the government at that on people in this province. time who thought this should have been a higher priority. I Te representation from First Call, the B.C. Youth and know and respect those people, and I think that they were Child Advocacy Coalition, pointed out the high incidence of right. Te fact that it’s coming up now should give them hope poverty in British Columbia and that it’s the root cause of ill as well. While we are experiencing economic good times, health, leading to higher health care costs and a decline in in terms of employment rate, investment in the province, I human capital. think it’s our responsibility to use whatever strategic advant- I’m quoting from the report, which is the annual report, age we have to address some of the foundational inequality 2009-2010: “Representatives for the advocacy coalition stress that exists. the need for a direction plan with targets, outcomes and Dr. Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond also pointed to how chil- reporting features.” I’m looking forward to that. I think that’s dren are ofen the ones who pay the high price of poverty in going to be an essential part of a plan. this province. When a member from the opposition equated Tey also advocated for an increase to welfare rates and our harm reduction strategy, in terms of dealing with the minimum wage, things that the previous government had no opioid crisis, with a poverty reduction strategy, dealing with interest in doing. Institution of a living wage index to the poverty, it’s a little bit appalling, actually, to suggest that we cost of living — that’s something that’ll obviously be con- don’t have to do a few things at the same time. sidered in this plan. An expansion of existing programs was While we’re trying to address the opioid crisis with harm also recommended. reduction, it does not mean that we don’t try to improve We’ve done many of the things that have been called for. the services to help people abstain or move away from drug But I think, really, what government tries to do is to imple- use. To suggest that while we attempt to reduce poverty…. ment policies in a well-laid-out and well-planned way. It doesn’t mean we’ll not pay attention to the job situation Te First Call coalition requested that the accountability or the economic viability of our communities. To simplify it structures for this poverty reduction plan be with a minister. to that level is a little bit, shall I say, simplistic and slightly I believe when we have a minister whose title includes insulting as well. poverty reduction that we’ve identifed that as a worthwhile When we’re trying to address harm reduction in the recommendation. opioid crisis, it’s to help people survive so that they can make Dr. Michael Prince, the Lansdowne Professor of Social another decision, so that they have another day, maybe fnd Policy, someone who some people might consider an expert those handholds to health. Maybe they’ll fnd those stepping in the feld, talked about the importance of a poverty reduc- stones with family or community to become healthy. Tose tion strategy. He described the causes of poverty as multiple, are harm reduction strategies. Tey’re eforts to reduce the complicated and interrelated. If they’re multiple, complic- harm. But while we reduce the harm, we don’t forget about ated and interrelated, to me that suggests the need for a plan the underlying and root causes, nor do we ignore the fact and not for a hope. Hope isn’t a plan. that we need to address the ongoing crisis. He described child poverty as a product of diferent con- With poverty, in general, it’s the same thing. While we texts of low income. Tere are housing and homelessness, hope our economy stays strong and while we work through education and literacy, economy and the labour force, public policy and hard work to make sure our economy stays policies and services. Societal values. strong, we still have to try and address the issue of poverty, When one has an opportunity to look at the expert because there are little two- or three-year-olds, infants, tod- testimony that has been calling for a poverty reduction dlers, children growing up in homes where poverty exists strategy, I think even the most skeptical among us in this right now. House would be convinced that it is time for a strategy, Maybe some members will say: “Well, it’ll teach them to and previous positions on this or previous failures in the be resilient.” I still think that when you know families that past should not predetermine their views on this current have to go to the food bank twice a week, when they have to plan. I hope that they don’t. get vouchers to get bus tickets to go to the food bank twice I hope that, in fact, members from the opposition rec- a week, where they have to wait until school’s over so that ognize this as a perfectly legitimate opportunity to try and they can take their children, because they can’t pay for sit- make some inroads into addressing this issue. ters, to go to the food bank twice a week, that’s a problem in [3:50 p.m.] a province of great wealth. Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5549

Maybe it’s the ideological foundation of some to think that we’ve fnally done it. I’m glad we’ve fnally done it. I would it’s just about hard work and just about people pulling them- have preferred it if…. selves up by their bootstraps. Tere’s always room for com- passion, always room for policy that addresses the needs of Interjections. those children. We have meals in our schools now for kids pretty universally around the province. Is that not a refec- N. Simons: For those who may be watching, we’re talking tion of poverty? Is that a refection of poverty? Are we ignor- about a bill — Bill 39, Poverty Reduction Strategy Act — ing what it’s refecting? Te fact that we have lunch pro- the opposition seems to be against. I’m not sure why. It’s not grams, hot lunch programs, the fact that we have break- going to hurt them at all. We’re glad we’re fnally doing it. fast programs in almost every school, the ones that weren’t I think it must be embarrassment over the fact that it took closed by this government…. Are we looking at poverty in them…. Well, they just didn’t do it. Tey saw every oth- rural communities? er province doing it. Every single province in this beauti- [3:55 p.m.] ful commonwealth of ours has a poverty reduction strategy. We’re talking about how rural communities are sufering. We’re fnally getting one. We’re fnally getting one, and Our rural communities are sufering because infrastructure they’re complaining. I’m not sure if they’re complaining or if has been taken away. Schools have closed. Courthouses have they’re just chirping, because I can’t, quite frankly, fnd any- closed. Hospitals have closed. Emergency rooms have closed. thing wrong with it. Tat’s in the rural part of our province. I represent a rural If they think that the platitudes we heard…. “Our poverty riding. Te representatives of other rural ridings should reduction strategy is about jobs.” Well, you know poverty know better. still exists when people have jobs. Half of the people who are living in poverty…. I must say, using this poverty measure- Interjection. ment — it’s not our measurement, the market basket meas- ure; it’s a Statistics Canada measurement — half the people N. Simons: Te member wants to mention one example that are living below this level are working poor, are people of how I might not be right. But when you look at 24 court- who are collecting paycheques and coming home from work. houses closing, when you look at the hospitals that closed in Tere are people who are working poor, working people, the Interior, when you look at almost 200…. who go to the food bank. I was always surprised…. Now we’re reacting to a housing Interjections. crisis with emergency responses. We’re reacting to an opioid epidemic with emergency responses. It’s like there was noth- Deputy Speaker: Members, through the Chair. ing in place. Tere was no structural integrity to our social support system that allowed us to escape from what we’re N. Simons: So 111 schools were closed in the frst three dealing with now. Tat is a government that was lacking years of that opposition’s government, and it came close to imagination, lacking any real consideration for the needs of 200. What does that do to a community? How many people the less fortunate in this province. here would take their young family and want to move to a I’m happy that we’re fnally doing it. I’m not saying…. rural community when they see their schools closing, when I’m proud of the fact that this government is the one doing they see their restaurants closing, when they see the bike it, but it’s not exactly like a happy occasion that we have to stores closing? Tose aren’t the kinds of communities that have a system now in place — that we have to have a plan we necessarily would want to move to. We want to move to to address the failures of the previous government. It’s not places that are dynamic. a moment for celebration and joy. It’s a moment for deep Part of government’s responsibility is to support rural refection, in fact. areas so that the poverty that exists in rural areas is not I’m glad that the members opposite are listening, because heightened, is not deepened the way this government did. it’s time that they heard the voices of the people they ignored, You know, a little bit of soul-searching on their part might the communities that they ignored, the children that they cause them a little bit of discomfort. Tat discomfort might didn’t think of. lead them to learn a little bit about the efects of poverty, not [4:00 p.m.] just on our communities but on our province as a whole. Tis is a plan to get something in place to address this…. I’m really pleased that we are…. Some complain that it’s taken us so long. It’s laughable. I’m glad that it’s fnally Interjections. happening. I think this is going to be something that…. While we’re the last in line, while we were the last to get N. Simons: Te members opposite, now, are taking into the lineup, we’re there now. We’re happy to be there ofence at the comments that I made that they were useless now. We’re glad that we’re actually…. Afer foot-dragging when they were in government when it came to addressing and sticking their feet in the mud, unable to move forward, child poverty. Yet they don’t want to stand up and talk about it. I wonder what that says. I wonder what the people 5550 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 of the province think when the members of the opposition N. Simons: You get this little chirping from the back don’t even want to comment on our plan to address child bench on that side. I know that area well. I inhabited it for poverty and poverty in general. It’s disappointing really, many a year, 12 years. I wondered, out of those 12 years, quite frankly. when this government would start paying attention to the I’m not saying that they should stand up and go “mea important things for people in this province. Tey didn’t. culpa.” I’m not saying that they should stand up and admit I waited. I asked about it. We asked about it. We brought their failures, necessarily, but maybe suggest that this is a up bills. We brought up motions. We brought up recom- good idea, maybe suggest that afer 16 years and every other mendations in committee. Even their members, many of province doing it, that we should have a plan — a plan that them, knew that this needed to be addressed. Just a few of measures whether or not we’re doing it, a plan that says how them can chirp from the other side and maybe feel a little bit much we should do by when. Even if just for the fact that guilty for not addressing this issue earlier. people who are, through no reason of their own, stuck in [4:05 p.m.] a situation where they’re unable to make ends meet, they A child born under this government in 2003 did not bene- should know that their government is interested in address- ft from a government that was concerned about them. Wel- ing this issue. fare rates stagnant. People who live on disability who can’t It’s just time for that to happen. No lack of imagination or work or have trouble working consistently had to struggle lack of compassion or lack of confdence in the abilities of just to get the smallest increases. British Columbia should stop the current government from We’re on our way. We’re investing in child care. Tat’s addressing this issue, and I’m proud we’re doing it. As far as going to help a lot of people. We’re investing in health care. I’m concerned, this is something that’s taken too long. We’re investing in education. We’re investing in adult edu- Tere are the statistics around poverty. Tere are the stat- cation, children’s education. We’re not making every rural istics around hunger. Tere are statistics around how many school raise enough money for their own playground. children have to have food programs in school. But the real- Tis idea that a job’s going to do everything…. A job’s ity is, for people living in these conditions of poverty, they’re helpful, but while we’re creating the proper economic condi- struggling every month. Tey’re worried every month. tions for employment and for job growth, we’re also looking Tey’re stressed every month. afer the most vulnerable in this province. I’m proud to be I spent 15 years going into the homes of people who are part of a government that’s fnally doing that. stressed out. As a child protection social worker, I know the impact of poverty on children. When we’re talking about D. Routley: It’s a great pleasure to stand and speak to sup- child protection, we’re not always talking about physical port a bill that addresses poverty in this province at long abuse or sexual abuse or emotional abuse. We’re talking last. Te member before me referred to all the years that he about a parent unable to look afer a child. What makes and I spent together in opposition — 12 years, three terms them unable to look afer the child? Is it unwilling? No, usu- — watching the well-being of the most vulnerable people in ally not. Unable? Ofen. Unable because their ability to work British Columbia be consistently and systematically under- within the resources that they have is hindered. mined by their own government. Maybe their education level didn’t allow them the same Tat was 12 years of frustration, 12 years of watching the routes of escape from poverty as others. Tat’s why we’re most vulnerable children and families in British Columbia investing in education, fnally. It took court cases for govern- pay for the largesse that their former government, the B.C. ment, for the province, to invest properly in education. We’re Liberal government, showered upon its supporters and its investing in rural post-secondary education. We didn’t add insiders. It started the frst day in ofce. Gordon Campbell, a tuition fee in order to get adult basic education. We wer- the previous Premier, gave a 25 percent tax cut across the en’t the ones that did that. If the opposition was interested in board. Wonderful news, right? Wonderful news for the reducing poverty at all, they wouldn’t have imposed a tuition friends and the supporters of the B.C. Liberal government. fee for people upgrading their skills to get into the work- Te wealthiest people in the province made of wealthy, force. Tat’s the opposite of what they should have done, didn’t they. Tey could aford an extra holiday in the Carib- and that should be an embarrassment to them. Tat might bean and export their money along with them, while those explain largely why they’re sitting in opposition. who paid for it couldn’t aford eye exams. Tose who paid for You think about the children that I think about. I think it — their schools couldn’t aford to be maintained. In fact, about the parents too — the parents who want to do better, they were closed. the single moms who, if only they had access to transport- Tis is what that previous B.C. Liberal government is ation, would be able to get their children into afer-school responsible for. Tat’s why they won’t stand up and speak to programs. It’s really nice that they exist, these afer-school this issue. It’s a despicable record. programs, but unless you get your child there and back, Yes, as we look at the world around us, there is displace- you’re not going to be able to do it. ment. Tere is economic displacement driven by technolo- gical change, but progressive governments cushion the blow Interjection. of those changes to their population — not the former B.C. Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5551

Liberal government. It’s sink or swim. You’re on your own. S. Bond: Nonsense. Too bad you were on the wrong side of the door when it closed. Tat’s their ideology. It’s pathetic, because what it D. Routley: Tat is it. Tat is exactly it. Live with it. Adjust has led to is a province that has the second-highest poverty to it. Learn the lesson. Maybe one day you’ll be able to appeal levels in this country — the second-highest poverty levels, to the voters again. But until you accept the fact that what the second-lowest education spending per capita and the you did to the province has been rejected, you will stay second-lowest public health spending per capita. where you are. Tose things are connected, and the outcomes are con- Here we are in a province where we have a responsible nected: the outcomes of addressing poverty without address- government, a wealthy society — a province rich in natural ing education. Te outcomes of addressing poverty without resources and a government that afects just about every addressing housing, as that former government did, are cata- aspect of people’s lives. Knowing how deeply decisions in strophic to the lives of British Columbians who are vulner- this House afect people’s lives — knowing how important able, who are sufering. public policy is to the outcome of children in care, of edu- We are headed towards a post-work world where these cation, of transportation, of housing, of all of the things that hokey ideological slogans are truly of the past. A person will determine poverty — what did they do? Tey ignored it. no longer be measured on whether they can produce a wid- No. Actually, that would have been better, had they get or not. We’re going to have to fnd another way to support ignored it. In fact, it wasn’t a question of inaction; it was a our society. We’re going to have to be inventive, creative, and question of inaction coupled with negative action. A $6-an- we’ll have to bring everyone along with us. If we do as the hour minimum wage. Tey actually reduced the minimum former B.C. Liberal government did and divide society and wage while our province was experiencing the highest hous- allow entire segments of our society to be lef behind for no ing infation in the country. How on earth could a govern- other reason than that they haven’t got a dollar in their pock- ment do that to its people? et, we all sufer. When the children of British Columbia suf- Another step that terrifcally and terribly undermined fer, we all sufer and those yet to come to this province sufer. vulnerable people was their amendments to the Manufac- Tat is a truth that every British Columbian under- tured Home Park Tenancy Act. Tey made it easier for stands. I don’t know why the B.C. Liberals didn’t under- people who are already poor, living in a mobile home, to stand it. I don’t know why being defeated and sent to the be evicted by a landlord seeking to capitalize and develop opposition benches for their record, even though there their property. Tey reduced the penalties to do that. Tey are balanced budgets, even though the economy is doing reduced the penalties and exposed, in large measure, vul- well…. Why? It’s because they were an afront to the values nerable seniors to eviction and homelessness. Tis is what of British Columbians, because their policies were an that government did. Ignoring the problem would have been afront to the values and principles that we hold collect- wonderful in comparison to that. ively — that we care for each other. Fees for services, eye exams. Poor children and families [4:10 p.m.] had to come up with $75 suddenly for an eye exam. How Tese communities, this province, were built collectively, many kids who were poor didn’t read well in school because one person to another. It was not a place of selfshness. We of that? We’ll never know, will we? have to do away with this simplistic ideology that has driven Tey added tuition to adult basic education. Now, that us to blame the poor for being poor, because the other side is not only negative to the people afected but to all of us. of the coin of blaming the poor for being poor is patting We have an economy with a skills shortage. We have a high ourselves on the back for not being so. Tat’s sad. It’s embar- immigrant population. We have difculties in immigrant rassing. It’s unnecessary. It’s cruel. It’s ungenerous. settlement. We have one of the highest return rates of We do not represent those values. We represent values immigrants who give up here. And they add fees to adult of empathy, generosity, caring. We represent the values that basic education? People who struggled to get through high built this province. school now have to pay? English as a second language? You Yes, we stand independently, but we stand together col- have to pay — pay, pay, pay — under the B.C. Liberals. lectively. We care about each other, and we don’t allow School closures. I have a friend who runs a bicycle shop. people to live under bridges while the others pass over top He came to a meeting in our community about a school clos- in Bentleys. We don’t accept that people will struggle for ure. He said this: “If I’m looking for a community to open food while they watch Ferraris pass them at the bus stop. another bicycle store, I’m not going to a community that’s Tat’s the British Columbia that was created by B.C. Liberal closing its elementary schools and undermining supports for policies, the division…. children and families.” How is that good for our economy, particularly in small communities and rural communities? S. Bond: Tat is nonsense. [4:15 p.m.] Tey forced parents to fundraise for playgrounds. Well, D. Routley: Te highest wage inequality in this country — that’s not so bad if you live in Point Grey. You can hold a din- afer 16 years of your government. ner, and you have a $50,000 fundraiser, while across the city, 5552 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018

in East Vancouver, they hold the same kind of fundraiser and Does he take the same approach to crime prevention? earn 500 bucks. Does he think that we shouldn’t have any police until all the Tey added to the structured inequality that already exis- crime is gone? Does he think that we should not have Neigh- ted in our society. Tey made it worse for people who were bourhood Watch until all the houses stop being broken into? struggling the most. Tey ignored the housing crisis. How Because, of course, Neighbourhood Watch assumes that do we think that afected families who were struggling? Te there are going to be criminals, right? Tat’s his reasoning. number one challenge in their lives — they made it worse. No, we see it diferently. We understand that government Government has a responsibility, in every act it takes, to makes many thousands of decisions almost daily. We under- consider the outcomes, particularly for the most vulnerable stand that every one of those decisions has the potential to people it afects. We take that seriously. impact people’s lives, be it around education, health care, Tey tore up the HEU contracts and the teachers con- transportation, housing, environment, anything. We under- tracts, the largest mass fring of women in Canadian his- stand that if we don’t coordinate the eforts of all those myri- tory. Tat’s what they did. Do you think that helped our ad agencies of government, if they are uncoordinated — dis- poverty rates? I think not. I think somehow that hurt us, coordinated, as was achieved by that former B.C. Liberal and it hurt those people. Tis was all to pay for bennies to government — if they are prevented from cooperating to be passed on to their buds. Tis was all to pay for bennies support British Columbians, we fail, and we see poverty for B.C. Liberal friends. grow, as we did under that previous government. Kids didn’t get textbooks in school. Tey had to tear the We understand that the actions of government in the textbooks in half. Teach one half of the students the frst half economy — the purchasing of goods, the construction of of the course; the second half of the class, the second half projects, the education of people, the housing of people, of the course. Flip it around at the end, halfway through the the care of children who need us…. All those things need term. In British Columbia, the place with the Bentleys driv- to be coordinated. It’s called a plan. When you have a plan, ing over the bridge with the people sleeping underneath it. you don’t waste resources. Te idea of the plan is to get the Te place with people sitting with their kids at a bus stop, maximum positive beneft from what government is going with grocery bags, while your friends in Ferraris drive by. to do anyway. [4:20 p.m.] Interjection. Wouldn’t it be stupid if government were to continue doing something on one hand and then something else on D. Routley: You bet. Tat’s the B.C. Liberal reality they the other hand and those two things combined to hurt brought to British Columbia. people? Tat seems a very basic consideration that we should always be making. A legislated poverty reduction plan forces Interjections. governments, current and future, to maintain that focus, to ensure that all of the things that they do in all their myriad D. Routley: Yeah, stand up and speak. If you’ve got agencies and ministries add up to one thing, add up to bene- something to say, stand up and speak to poverty. ft — the maximum beneft and the minimum harm to Brit- ish Columbians. Deputy Speaker: Members, through the Chair. Members, Now, had that previous B.C. Liberal government oper- it is…. ated for 16 years with that principle, we would not be here in this state. We would not have the second-highest Interjections. poverty rates, despite our economy, despite our natural advantages of being on the Pacifc coast, despite our nat- Deputy Speaker: Members. ural advantages in resources. Despite all those advantages, that government — the B.C. Liberal government — for 16 Interjections. years allowed the most vulnerable people to sink or swim: “No swimming lessons for you. Water wings for our kids; D. Routley: Trough the Chair, the member opposite no swimming lessons for yours.” should take a look outside. Sit at a bus stop. Watch those cars Tat was the ethic of this province — that former B.C. drive by. Watch the family sitting there with the groceries. Liberal government. I sat across for 12 years and listened to Watch them struggle. Watch them. them and their hokey ideology, their statements and their We had a member from the other side equate a poverty slogans that wound up blaming the most vulnerable people reduction plan and criticize it and oppose it based on in this province for being poor. Tey were penalized for their the fact that he disagreed with harm reduction for those situation. Tey were not supported. Tey were penalized. addicted to opioids. He thinks that harm reduction is accepting the fact that they’re going to continue to be Interjection. addicted, and poverty reduction is going to accept the fact that there’s poverty. Imagine. D. Routley: Oh, the member…. You were here. Hello. It Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5553 was me. I was here; I saw it. You saw it — through the — many parents would take their kids to other schools if Chair. Certainly, you must remember the $6-an-hour train- they had the choice. Lo and behold, who give them that ing wage. choice, eh? B.C. Liberals, right? We believe that British Columbians should prosper. We How do you think that panned out for those schools on believe that government, in every step it takes, no matter the Downtown Eastside and for schools, maybe, with a high- what that is, should have in its mind the prosperity of British er Aboriginal population? Tey knew. Tey knew very well. Columbians — all British Columbians, all of us, all of our In the Supreme Court case that the teachers won, it was all kids, all of our friends, all the people begging for money on admitted that they knew that there would be the closures the corner, especially them — because if there’s any citizen of schools and cutbacks in services, and they consciously who deserves an extra share of government focus, it is those endorsed plans to blame that on school trustees and boards who live below the poverty line. of education, to pass the responsibility for cutting. Tey were It is those who have been lef behind by policies that this even warned: “If you don’t do this, you’ll directly have to House made. It is those who, with their children and their make the cuts yourselves.” Well, they couldn’t do that. children’s children, for that matter, without a poverty reduc- My idea of a responsible government is one that is tion plan, without a government that cares, would continue responsible for its acts. Tey don’t even want to be respons- to pay the price for the bennies that get showered upon the ible for those things now, some ten or 15 years later. Tey wealthy and that for 16 years were funnelled out the back of don’t want to be responsible for the efects of a $6-an-hour the treasury by the B.C. Liberals. training wage. Tey don’t want to be responsible for the Tey might wonder why they’re sitting over there in efects of having ignored a housing crisis for as long as they opposition. Tey might wonder. Maybe they don’t accept did. Tey don’t want to face up to the outcomes of what they it. Maybe they don’t wonder. Maybe they’re not asking did, but the people of British Columbia who live below the themselves: “What could we have done better?” We’re try- poverty line, and others who struggle, understand it well. ing to help. We’re trying to show them what they could Tey pay for it every day; they have to face it every day. have done better. I wish at least a couple of the members on the other side Tey could have taken care of people. Tey could have would stand up and speak to this. I think it’s cowardly not kept those schools open and the courthouses open. Tey to, afer this having been one of the primary division points, could have kept supplying eye exams. Tey could have res- politically, in this province for the last decade and a half. isted tearing up the contracts for the HEU and the teachers and not had the biggest mass fring of women in Canadian Interjection. history. Tey could have not done that. What else could they not have done? Well, they could have D. Routley: I respect you as having spoken. not closed schools in my community when I was a school I challenge other members to stand up and speak to this trustee. Tey did things that were so calculating. It’s like: bill. If we are not able to face up and address the most serious “Here’s the body. It has muscle; it has bone. But we’ll snip the issues that face British Columbians…. Tis issue wraps them tendons so that it no longer can act.”Tey did that. Tey very all together. Tis issue wraps housing, education, transporta- carefully did that. tion, income assistance, disability assistance, women’s rights I’ll give you an example, in public education. When they and fees to families. All of it’s wrapped up in this bill. went to per-student funding and eliminated catchment areas Afer having for 16 years resisted and being in the only at the same time, they guaranteed that small schools would province without a plan to reduce poverty, how can they sit close. Tey guaranteed that small communities would there, smugly, not supporting the government that is bring- shrink. Tey guaranteed that we would lose small com- ing that kind of plan and optimism to the lives of British munities. Tey guaranteed that, because they knew very well Columbians who struggle? In the end, when you’ve had 16 that the student population was declining. years of systems that have been undermined and diminished [4:25 p.m.] by underfunding and ignorance, it isn’t like ficking a switch. What better way to reduce education funding than to con- nect the funds to a declining number of students? Ten you S. Bond: Tis is standard conduct in this place. can say: “I’m giving $10,000 per student.” When you get few- Ignorance, all the things you’ve said in the last 30 er students, you can say, “Next year, I’m giving $11,000. I’m minutes…. giving a whole bunch more money per student,”but there are fewer students. British Columbians aren’t stupid. Tey got it. D. Routley: Ignorance. Yes, ignorance. Tey saw their kids with reduced services. Tey saw their schools being closed. Deputy Speaker: Members, it is possible to disagree Tey did that knowing that that would be the result. without resorting to personal attack. Tey did that knowing that if you took away catchment areas, then — in areas that are of depressed economic D. Routley: Absolutely. Tat is not a personal attack. status and that perhaps have high immigrant populations Tank you. 5554 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018

Tat was an appraisal of the lack of vision that the B.C. most recent data from 2016, about 99,000 of those living in Liberal government paid to these issues. It is ignorance. It poverty are children. Tings clearly have not been working was an ignorance of the problems that people faced. It was an well for us. A province as wealthy as ours should not have ignorance of the sufering that your policy decisions brought had sad statistics like these. to people’s lives. Tat is unconscionable. It’s time for us to Tese are more than statistics. Tese are real people and turn a page and…. real communities that are struggling. Tese are real people who are uncertain about their future, who are worried about Deputy Speaker: Member, parliamentary language would not being able to put food on their tables and who are wor- be required. ried that they will wake up with no roof above their heads. Despite our strong economy, there are too many people who D. Routley: Tank you, Madame Speaker. have been lef behind, and we need to make sure that we [4:30 p.m.] extend our arms and hands to them. I want to share with you a story about Pauline, a single [R. Chouhan in the chair.] mom with two young boys. I hope Pauline’s story will help people empathize and understand those living in poverty. It’s time for us to turn a page towards prosperity for those Pauline begins every one of her days with anxiety and fear. people. It’s time that they saw that the government that they She worries about how she’s able to aford the next month’s depend on would act in their best interests. Tat’s what rent with the minimum wage she’s making. She’s worried they’re seeing. Tey’re fnally seeing a government that about not being able to provide her two young boys with understands that the things that it does afect their lives nutritious lunch and fresh fruits. What if the teacher realizes and that we need to be responsible for that. We need to that they simply have two thin pieces of bread, thinly have a plan in order to avoid negative and unintended con- smeared with strawberry jam? sequences, if we care. Tis bill strikes at the heart of the dif- Let alone fnding enough money for food, Pauline has ference between these two parties, and it strikes at the heart been cutting down on buying new clothes for the boys, hop- of what went wrong over the last 16 years. ing that the pants can be retailored to shorts and that their Now, all of us have a bit of all of it in us when it comes to long-sleeved shirts can be trimmed down to a T-shirt for the ideology, I believe — a bit of conservatism, a bit of liberal- coming summer. Would they be ridiculed by other kids for ism, a bit of socialism. It’s all there in diferent balances. But I wearing the same pants and T-shirts? think that none of us, no matter what point of view we main- Pauline is also worried about her own health problems. tain, should ever forget that the focus of that point of view She’s trying to stay strong as long as she can for herself and should be the people that we serve, particularly those who her children, but how long can her frail body last before are the most vulnerable. It’s simple. It seems only fair. it can no longer sustain the stress of life and malnutrition? While the member equates harm reduction to accepting With tear in her eyes, she tells her story: “I’ve never imagined drug abuse and poverty reduction to accepting poverty, I that I would be living like this. My life is like a never-ending would ask him again: does he maintain the same point of roller coaster.” view for crime reduction? Should we do away with police [4:35 p.m.] until all the crime is gone? Should we do away with Neigh- Pauline has been going through a tough separation with bourhood Watch until no houses are being broken into? No. her husband, and a very tough custody battle. With her We plan for the best. We work for the best. We cope with health problems, she’s now unable to work and is receiving what we get, and we do not pretend that our actions did not disability support. She also receives child tax benefts, but have any efect when the efect is negative. We have to face nevertheless, over half of her income goes to paying of the up to it. Tey have to face up to it. rent, while the rest barely covers the costs of food, car insur- Tis bill will help British Columbians never have to face ance, gas and other unexpected costs. that kind of treatment from a government again, should they She receives support from the food bank, but that just fnd themselves in the unfortunate position at some point in isn’t enough. In the food bank lineup, she recognizes families their lives of living below the poverty line. Because that’s not from her child’s school whom she thought were doing okay. a crime. It is not deserving of penalty, but it was rewarded She has come to realize that life isn’t just hard for her but for with penalty for 16 years, and that’s changing with this bill. many more families just like hers. Sharing her story, Pauline says: “I felt so helpless and A. Kang: I am rising today to voice my support for a piece heartbroken to know that so many people are falling through of legislation that is long overdue. British Columbia has the the cracks. What is the government doing to help families second-worst poverty rate in Canada, with 557,000 people like mine, like ours, who are trying our best to make ends living in poverty due to years of neglect and inaction by the meet but with little luck? Sometimes it feels that the harder previous government. we try, the harder we fall.” Social services and programs were underfunded, and Pauline also expresses how ashamed she feels when she is there was no strategy to tackle the problem. Based on the helpless to take care of her two boys. She knows that there Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5555 is no shame in working hard yet be living in poverty. But Te establishment of an advisory committee, through Bill every week, standing in the lineup for a hot meal or collect- 39, will bring poverty reduction to the centre of our attention ing food at a food bank, she feels the passersby staring at her and allow more public participation to devise a strategy that and judging her. Sometimes she hears the uncontained con- is suitable for diferent communities. versations of people walking by, commenting that people liv- [4:40 p.m.] ing on government and community assistance are lazy. But We need a wide range of perspectives to solve a complex that just isn’t true. Pauline is just one example of someone problem in our diverse province, so the advisory commit- who has fallen through the cracks of our system. tee must include a representative from, at least, each of We need to do more to prevent British Columbians from the following groups: Indigenous people, people living in slipping through the cracks. Until the recent announcement poverty, people living with disabilities, local governments, by the Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduc- organizations that advocate for people living in poverty, tion, British Columbia was the only province in Canada the business community, unions, academics and persons without a poverty reduction plan. Tis is the result of years living in rural and remote communities. Te advisory and years of neglect under the previous government. It is committee also requires that at least half of the members time that we move on a piece of legislation that would bring of the committee be women, who are also disproportion- us in line with the rest of our country. ately impacted by poverty. Bill 39, the Poverty Reduction Strategy Act, marks a turn- It will take some time to undo the damages caused by ing point for our province. It is an historic frst step that many years of neglect and inaction, but it is important that codifes our commitment to British Columbians, sets ambi- we set these targets now so that we can gather all the tious targets and provides a clear timeline on when these tar- resources we need to break the cycle of poverty moving for- gets will be met. Over the next fve years, we will reduce the ward. I understand that this government is already taking overall poverty rate by 25 percent and the child poverty rate action to rebuild our social programs, and people are seeing by 50 percent. Tat means that by 2024, fewer people will be the diference. worrying about their future, fewer people will be worrying As Parliamentary Secretary for Seniors, I work with many about putting food on their tables, and fewer people will be seniors across the region and from all walks of life. British worrying about putting a roof over their heads. Columbia has a sad distinction when it comes to seniors in Tese are more than just numbers. Tese are people’s lives, poverty. According to a report card on seniors’ poverty, the people who have built this province with us and people who province has the worst rate in Canada — 8.8 percent of seni- deserve to beneft from the prosperity of this province. ors in B.C. living in poverty, compared to a national average Poverty has a negative impact on our health and education of 6.6 percent. performance, and those who slip into poverty, especially I’m constantly hearing stories from seniors themselves children, ofen get trapped in the vicious cycle. Children about how difcult life is as they try their best to balance who are malnourished ofen have trouble focusing in class, their paycheque month afer month, making tough decisions and the distracted learning experience ofen has long-lasting like choosing medications over groceries or fresh vegetables implications in their lives. and fruits. Te report from the Lower Mainland United Way As a teacher previously, it was so heartbreaking for me to and the Social Planning and Research Council of British see a student in my class tell me that she had forgotten her Columbia asserts that, over 15 years, the number of seniors lunch, time afer time, day afer day, only to fnd out the fact living in poverty doubled, from nearly 34,000 people in 2000 that her mom didn’t have enough money for lunch. I would to more than 70,000 people in 2015. bring twice the amount of lunch that I needed and share with Many of our seniors, especially older seniors, are living her. Another student, for lunch, he would bring a piece of alone or in isolation. Single seniors are also more than three plain white bread to school and just chew it by himself. times more likely to be poorer than coupled seniors. For If a student had friends or some social skills, they would seniors that live in B.C., the report found 16 percent of single be able to attach themselves to a friend who brought lots and seniors live in poverty, while 9 percent of the seniors in lots of snacks or even convince them to bring an extra share coupled families live in poverty. of lunch, and that’s how some of my students got by. But Te B.C. seniors advocate has commented that skyrock- that’s not a way for a student to learn survival skills. eting rents and dwindling afordable housing units in Van- By lifing these children out of poverty, we can begin to couver and urban cities are driving seniors to the brink of break the cycle that keeps people trapped in poverty from homelessness, forcing some to couch-surf, seek roommates one generation to the next. When we invest in children, we or even live in cars. Tat is why our government has invested lif up the entire family. more in support for RAP, which is the rental assistance pro- Te reduction of poverty is not just a policy question; it is gram, and SAFER, Shelter Aid For Elderly Renters, which a moral question. We must make poverty reduction a prior- that went into efect September 1, 2018. ity now. By passing Bill 39, we are making sure that poverty In October, the Minister of Municipal Afairs and Hous- reduction will continue to be a priority for this province ing announced that government will be providing $116 mil- under this and future governments. lion over three years to expand eligibility and increase the 5556 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 average benefts. More than 35,000 households will beneft much better than seniors, but they are able to get on with from the enhancement, including 3,200 newly eligible seni- their lives, whereas older adults don’t have a chance to make ors and families. Te average payments for RAP recipients more money. Tey don’t have a chance to get ahead, relying will go up by approximately $800 a year. Te average pay- just on themselves alone. Tat is why the government is step- ments for SAFER recipients will go up by approximately ping up. Tat is why the Minister of Social Development and $930 per year. Poverty Reduction is devising and planning a poverty reduc- While the province’s rental assistance programs have not tion strategy in B.C. kept up with the rising rents in the private market, the Min- As Parliamentary Secretary for Seniors, I talk a lot about ister of Municipal Afairs and Housing is taking quick action seniors because I work with seniors, not only those who live to make sure that new investments are expanded and to in my constituency but also those across the province. I have expand eligibility and increase benefts of the rental assist- read the B.C. Seniors’ Poverty Report Card, and it provides ance program for low-income seniors and working families. very real evidence that seniors’ poverty is a growing chal- Furthermore, these enhancements will beneft 35,000 lenge and that a poverty reduction strategy for seniors is households, including 3,200 newly eligible families and seni- necessary and urgent. ors through British Columbia. Tackling poverty is not just We must remember that our seniors are incredibly vulner- the focus of the Minister of Social Development and Poverty able to poverty. Our seniors deserve better in their golden Reduction but across ministries as our government works years of retirement. Our seniors gave us life. Tey raised us. to make sure that life gets better for the people of British Tey mentored us, contributed to society their entire life and Columbia. helped us build our province and our nation. Tey deserve Our government is working hard to make life more to retire with dignity and with a better quality of life. afordable, to improve the services that people count on, to Bill 39 asks for the strategy to include poverty reduction create good jobs and a strong economy, a sustainable eco- initiatives that will increase the afordability of goods, ser- nomy, throughout all of B.C. I’m deeply encouraged by the vices and housing. Tis is extremely important to our seniors steps that our government is taking to help low-income fam- who have retired and rely on their savings or who are on ilies and seniors aford their rent. Having secure, aford- fxed incomes. Bill 39 also seeks to include more people into able housing is something that everyone in British Columbia community life and into systems of support. deserves. I’m comforted by the fact that this government has done As the Parliamentary Secretary for Seniors, I know that so much for seniors over the last year. I especially want to many seniors have been struggling for too long to fnd and commend the great work that the Minister of Health has maintain housing they can aford. By increasing the SAFER been doing all throughout the summer — right from the subsidy and building new afordable housing, seniors in B.C. get-go, feet on the ground, ready to run. He’s still running, will be able to stay in their communities, even if they want to and I’m having a hard time chasing afer him. I’m comforted downsize. by the fact that thousands of people have moved into new, [4:45 p.m.] afordable homes and that MSP premiums are cut in half, but Tese steps will build on other actions our government there’s so much more to be done to solve the systemic prob- is taking, working together across various ministries and lems of poverty. working in partnership with all levels of government to Bill 39 requires the Minister of Social Development and improve services for everyone, including seniors. Poverty Reduction to devise and plan a strategy by March Trough Budget 2018, the Ministry of Health is investing 31, 2019, and I look forward to reviewing the strategy once $548 million over three years to improve care for seniors, it’s fnalized. I hope that we will continue to engage in this including investments in primary care, home and com- conversation, monitor the progress that we make and build munity care, residential care and assisted living. our eforts. In fve years, we will set new targets that bring us As I’ve previously mentioned, working in partnership closer and closer to the elimination of poverty. with diferent levels of government is important in providing In conclusion, I am voicing my strong support for Bill 39, services that people need. Te funding comes on top of $250 the Poverty Reduction Strategy Act, and I applaud the work million in federal funding for home and community care, that the Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduc- which will assist many seniors, and is in addition to $189 tion is doing. million, from the Ministry of Health base budget, which we’ve allocated to senior care. Tis is the largest investment J. Rice: I rise today to speak in support of the Poverty in senior care in a generation. It will go a long way to Reduction Strategy Act. My hometown of Prince Rupert has improve how seniors are cared for in B.C. the dubious distinction of being one of…. Well, it’s tied with Te challenge of afordability in housing is not only seen two other communities as being the poorest in British in seniors but also with younger adults, working adults and Columbia. Te North Coast regional district, as well as the families. It is a challenge for many vulnerable members of Prince Rupert school district, is also ofen listed as amongst our society. Younger adults may be more resilient and may the poorest in our province. be able to tolerate the unpredictability and instability of life [4:50 p.m.] Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5557

In January, the Minister of Social Development and money. Tey know when they can’t aford to participate in Poverty Reduction hosted a poverty reduction strategy sports and other activities. Poverty negatively afects their meeting in Prince Rupert. It was one of the largest forums health and education outcomes, which traps them in the held, with over 150 people in attendance, from all walks of cycle of poverty. life — from people who were thrust into poverty when the How do we solve it? Tat’s the purpose of this legislation. pulp mill closed to people who’dlost their lifelong jobs work- As I said, our government has already taken steps to address ing at the cannery. We even saw the working poor, who were poverty — as mentioned before, cutting MSP premiums by there trying to ofer solutions to this long-ignored problem. 50 percent, with the goal to eliminate them. Our friends Imagine that. Working multiple jobs, living paycheque to across the aisle doubled MSP premiums during their tenure. paycheque and still taking time to ofer solutions at a forum. Our government restored adult basic education and English- It was 16 years, under B.C. Liberal leadership, of ignoring language-learning programs — two very cynical cuts from and underfunding social programs which has led to B.C. the last government. We removed an unnecessary barrier for having the second-worst poverty rate in Canada. It was people looking to upgrade their skills. chirping on about jobs and families for 16 years, while over We announced over 2,000 modular homes across the half a million people lived in poverty. Tat’s 550,000 people province to get people of the streets and have provided living in poverty, 99,000 of them children. wraparound services to help them better their lives. Te One in fve of British Columbia’s children live in poverty, record investment in housing, part of our 30-point housing but our colleagues across the aisle just want to ignore that plan, will increase supply, and our speculation tax will help number. Te people from my community and others across further increase supply and curb property speculators from our province will not let them forget that. pricing everyday British Columbians out of their own com- It’s not just children either. It’s seniors as well. B.C. seniors munities. We ended the arbitrary 2 percent rental increase are the poorest in Canada. According to the B.C. Seniors’ instigated by the previous government. Poverty Report Card released by SPARC B.C. and the United Our record investment in child care will save families Way, in 2012, the number of seniors living in poverty was across the province thousands and thousands of dollars a 43,000. In 2015, the number rose to over 70,000. year in child care costs. Te Bella Coola Valley in my riding has the highest senior [4:55 p.m.] poverty rate in B.C., at nearly 15 percent of seniors living Our government knows that what we’ve done isn’t in poverty. What was the previous government’s response to enough. A goal without a plan is just a wish. Tat’s why we those statistics? Tere wasn’t one. It was business as usual, have set goals to lower the poverty rates for B.C. Tat’s why and that’s unacceptable. Tings haven’t been working, and we’ve introduced this legislation. Tis legislation means that too many people have been lef behind, despite our strong we can begin to break the cycle that keeps people trapped economy. from one generation to the next. When you invest in chil- Tat’s why we’re developing B.C.’s frst poverty reduction dren, you lif the entire family up. strategy. We’re going to join the rest of the country in actu- I support this legislation. It’s long past due. And it’s ally developing a plan that helps those in British Columbia prudent that we hold any government to account for actually who have been lef behind. Tis legislation is a turning point making lives better for people. for our province. Our government has already taken bold steps to address low wages, through the Fair Wages Commis- Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the minister sion. It can no longer be the Wild West where wages race to closes debate. the bottom. Te Poverty Reduction Strategy Act is a historic step Hon. S. Simpson: I want to start by thanking members that sets out bold poverty reduction targets. Our govern- on all sides of the House for their comments in relation to ment is already working to make people’s lives more this piece of legislation that I’ve introduced. Tank you for afordable by cutting MSP premiums, upping the disability the comments. Tank you for the input. It’s important. I do and social assistance rates and helping parents with lower- believe that reducing poverty and closing the inequality gap cost child care. in this province is something that all members, regardless of We know there’s more to be done, and that’s why we’ve the side of the House they’re on, should be embracing and introduced this legislation. We plan to lower the overall should be looking to pursue. poverty rate by 25 percent over the next fve years and lower We’ve had this debate over this question of poverty reduc- the child poverty rate by 50 percent. Tese aren’t numbers; tion legislation and the need for a plan go on for many, many these are people. Tese are the kids that walk past my house years in this House. I know that the members on the other going to school in Prince Rupert each morning. Tese are side have always made the case about jobs being the corner- our neighbours. stone of poverty reduction, and I appreciate that comment. We know that children who live in poverty ofen don’t But the reality is that we have the lowest unemployment rates do as well in life. A hungry child can’t learn. A child in the country now. We’ve had low unemployment rates for understands when their parents are stressed out about 5558 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 many years, and it hasn’t afected the poverty rates in ways Motion approved. that would be meaningful. Te only signifcant reduction in poverty that we’ve seen Hon. S. Simpson: I move that the bill be referred to a over the last number of years happened from 2015 to 2016. Committee of the Whole House to be considered at the next Tat was almost exclusively the actions of the federal govern- sitting of the House afer today. ment around the Canada child tax beneft and an increase in the guaranteed income supplement. Tat did bring poverty Bill 39, Poverty Reduction Strategy Act, read a second in British Columbia down, from about 14.8 percent to 12 time and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for percent across the board. But those were two very signifcant consideration at the next sitting of the House afer today. federal initiatives that were put in place in 2015. Other than that, we haven’t seen poverty move. Hon. D. Eby: I call Committee of the Whole, third read- It’s my sense…. I think the debate has to be around how ing, on Bill 37, the Land Statutes Amendment Act, 2018, you get at the cycle of poverty and how you break the cycle of Ministry of FLNRO. poverty. We know there is no silver bullet for this. Whether it’s rate increases or it’s jobs or it’s any single thing, I simply Committee of the Whole House don’t believe there is one answer that does this easily. Poverty reduction is a bit of a challenge, as with many BILL 37 — LAND STATUTES social policy issues. Tere are the policy questions, which AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 are broad policy issues, and then there’s having a plan that’s (continued) nimble enough to look at the circumstances of individuals that are unique, always, in their own way. Tat’s particularly Te House in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on true for persons with disabilities, but it’s really true across the Bill 37; R. Chouhan in the chair. spectrum of people who are struggling with poverty. It is our intention that the plan that will come out, Te committee met at 5:03 p.m. attached and linked to the budget in the spring, will look to be nimble enough to address those issues. It will look at the Sections 18 to 37 inclusive approved. questions of afordability and how we close the afordability gap. It will look very much at opportunity and how we cre- Title approved. ate opportunity for people to fnd the lives they want, wheth- er it’s getting training, whether it’s fnding employment, how Hon. D. Donaldson: I move the committee rise and they break that cycle of poverty. report the bill complete without any amendments. It will look at social inclusion. It will look at how we end the alienation that seems to be such an inherent part of Motion approved. poverty and that people struggle with. We will look at how we blend it and merge it into the question of reconciliation, Te committee rose at 5:05 p.m. since we see such an inordinate number of Indigenous and First Nations people in this province struggling with ques- Te House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. tions of poverty. I believe that every one of us has a challenge here to step Report and Tird Reading of Bills up and to move this work forward in a positive way. As my colleague said, we have 557,000 of our British Columbia cit- BILL 37 — LAND STATUTES izens who are struggling, and that number is probably low. AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 A hundred thousand of those are kids, and I don’t believe there’s anybody in this House that wants to see 100,000 chil- Bill 37, Land Statutes Amendment Act, 2018, reported dren in British Columbia living in poverty. complete without amendment, read a third time and Tat is the challenge in front of us. Tat’s the work that passed. we need to do moving forward. And it won’t be successful just coming out of this ministry or out of a couple of minis- Hon. D. Eby: I call second reading on Bill 40, the Electoral tries. It has to be a government-wide initiative. It has to be a Reform Referendum 2018 Amendment Act, 2018. broader societal initiative. Tat really is the question and the challenge of bringing all those pieces together to make that [R. Chouhan in the chair.] successful. If we do this together, I believe that we can make the success, we can have the success, that we’re all looking to have as we move forward. [5:00 p.m.] With that, I move second reading of Bill 39. Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5559

Second Reading of Bills important factor in leading me to recommend a confrming referendum in the How We Vote report released last May. BILL 40 — ELECTORAL REFORM Tis bill would implement that recommendation in law. REFERENDUM 2018 AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 Binding any future government to conduct a confrming referendum on keeping proportional representation or Hon. D. Eby: I move the bill be now read a second time. moving back to frst-past-the-post provides certainty that Tis bill amends the Electoral Reform Referendum 2018 voters would be able to have their say, once again, on how Act, passed last fall. Te act and its regulation provide the we vote in British Columbia. With that, I look forward to legal framework for the referendum on electoral reform that hearing what other members have to say about the bill and is underway now. In this referendum, voters will be asked the vote on this. to decide whether they prefer to keep the current frst-past- the-post voting system or change to a proportional repres- M. Lee: Tank you for this opportunity to speak again entation voting system. Voters will be ofered the opportun- on this most-important fundamental issue that this current ity to rank their preferences from among three specifc PR government has brought on this province. I am not in sup- systems. port of this amendment to the Electoral Reform Referendum Te amendments in this bill require that if this fall’s ref- Act, as set out in Bill 40, because this referendum has been erendum results in a change to proportional representation, a fawed process. Tis government’s last-minute attempt to government must hold a confrming referendum on keeping make a change does not address the signifcant faws with that system or whether the public wishes to change back to this referendum. the frst-past-the-post system. As I said in my response to the throne speech in this It’s important to note that the subject matter of the ques- chamber two weeks ago, when the Premier invites British tion would be quite specifc. It is simply whether to keep the Columbians to join him and take a leap of faith, I don’t see new system or revert back to the original frst-past-the-post how British Columbians can take that leap of faith with the system. It is not the intention that the confrming referen- lack of clarity, the lack of details and the lack of information dum would involve debate and voting on other potential vot- in this referendum. How can British Columbians take that ing systems. leap when so many details are to be determined afer the ref- Te amendments specify that the confrming referendum erendum on the three proposed proportional representation would be held afer the proportional representation voting voting systems? system had been used in two provincial general elections. Tis government has been in this process for over 14 Tis provides voters with more than a single opportunity months. Now with just three days, three more days in this to experience the new voting system, without putting the House, before voting begins in just seven days, it brings opportunity to re-evaluate the issue too far into the future. this bill forward for debate, an amendment to the Referen- [5:10 p.m.] dum Act, which was passed last November. You may ask: Te amendments also require the second referendum to why now? Why, with just a few weeks lef in this process, be held within 13 months of the second general election in does this government bring this forward? What’s the real which the proportional representation system is used. Tis objective here? precise time frame provides certainty for voters as to when Is it to say to voters: “Don’t worry; trust us. Take a leap of the confrming referendum would be held, rather than leav- faith, and if it doesn’t work out, you will have the opportun- ing the timing open-ended. ity to change it back, all the way back, to our current frst- It also ensures that the outcome would be known in a past-the-post voting system.”? Well, I don’t believe it works sufcient time for the independent Electoral Boundaries that way. Tere are no do-overs. Commission that would be scheduled at that time to pro- Tis government must be held accountable by the mem- pose boundaries for either the continued use of the pro- bers of this House for the fawed referendum process that portional representation voting system or a return to frst- they run. Tis government should have addressed these past-the-post. faws with this referendum when they had the opportunity to It’s worth remembering that a clear majority of parti- do so over the past 14 months, instead of shifing the focus to cipants in the public engagement that helped shape this fall’s how to unwind this 12 years from now if this all goes poorly referendum were in favour of holding a confrming refer- for the province. endum if British Columbia moves to proportional repres- Tis fawed referendum is what we should be debating in entation. When a demographically balanced panel of British this House, even at this late stage. Because even if this bill is Columbians were asked the question, 60 percent were in passed in this session, it’s not necessarily binding on a future favour of holding a confrming referendum, 14 percent were government, as the Attorney General just stated, particu- opposed, and 23 percent were neutral. larly when a new composition of this House, this Legislative Likewise, respondents to the engagement website’s ques- Assembly, and a future government would be put together tionnaire were in favour by a margin of 57 percent to 24 per- under a new form of proportional representation, if it passes. cent, with 16 percent neutral. Tat level of support was an [5:15 p.m.] 5560 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018

What happens when a party gains 5 percent of the vote party-based voting alternatives to British Columbians, provincially, even though it may not elect a member directly when it clearly shifs the voting power from voters them- in a district riding, and that party gains 5 percent of the seats selves, from British Columbians, to political parties? Te in this House and potentially holds the balance of power, government certainly didn’t engage British Columbians on like the Green Party holds today? Will that party, and their this shif away from a voter-based system that was pro- members representing it, when its political life is dependent posed in the 2005 and 2009 referenda. Why are there so upon this new system of voting, agree to hold another ref- many details in these three systems being lef to be deter- erendum? With likely the disproportionate amount of power mined afer the vote? in this House, what infuence would that party hold over the Te Premier appeared to have agreed, over ten days ago, rules of that referendum? to address these and other points in a debate, at the invit- It is truly like the situation we have today, where this gov- ation of the Leader of the Opposition. Two weeks ago we ernment is only in power because of the support of three were talking about this in this chamber. We’re still talking Green Party members, representing 3.4 percent of the seats about this. of this House, and is pushing forward with their agenda to It’s simple. Te Premier has agreed, yet we don’t have a change our voting system for the beneft of that party, rather date. We don’t have the details. Tis is the Premier that said than focusing on confrming a proportional representation that we can have this process run in 30 days like an election decision two election cycles afer it may be implemented, as campaign. Well, if we were doing that, there’s seven days lef. I said, which would be 12 years from now. [5:20 p.m.] All members of this House should be all focused on Time is running out, and we need the Premier to take dealing with the faws in this referendum now. Tis gov- the leadership role and the responsibility he has for this ernment has not met the high bar that it set for itself in province. We need him to stand up and debate the Leader of its throne speech, and this amendment to the Referendum the Opposition so that British Columbians can more thor- Act is not going to address any of the faws in the referen- oughly understand what they’re voting on. dum process to date. Clearly, this Premier and this government can’t hide From being back out in the communities, I’m sure that behind this feeble attempt to convince British Columbians to each of the members in this House have found that British try proportional representation with a promise of a second Columbians are still not aware that there’s a referendum referendum 12 years from now. Tis is a fawed referendum, that’s coming very shortly. Even if they are, I’m sure many of and this last-minute attempt to address the faws by a prom- you have seen and had your discussions with British Colum- ise of a second referendum is truly a sham. bians who don’t understand what they’re voting on, even Te Attorney General and this government have a duty though the voting starts in one week. to ensure that the legislation in this province is consti- Before this government is in such a rush to achieve their tutionally compliant and that the public is provided with desired results for this referendum, being a proportional rep- sufcient information. Tis duty was to be carried out over resentation voting system, and focus on reconfrming the the past 14 months, not 12 years from now. Te Attorney results 12 years from now, isn’t the more pressing question General was so sure in this House in April and May — for British Columbians this referendum? How is this govern- when repeatedly asked questions about the constitution- ment giving voice to the people of British Columbia when ality of this referendum and proportional representation, they haven’t truly engaged British Columbians in looking at including by the member for Prince George–Mackenzie — their voting systems and when many of these British Colum- that he would not be proceeding with a referendum and bians don’t even know what they’re voting on? forms of proportional representation that are not constitu- We need to be honest with ourselves in this House as to tional or that are illegal. what we should be doing, each member in this House, to Ten why is it, afer having been at this for 14 months, help better educate British Columbians about what they’re when challenged by the Independent Contractors and Busi- voting on. nesses Association and others with a legal claim in the Tis government, I believe, has a duty to explain to British courts, that the Attorney General has indicated that the gov- Columbians why it’s proposing three forms of party-based ernment lawyers need more time? Te Attorney General proportional representation in this referendum. Two sys- asks how that’s going. Well, this is the thing. Tey brought tems, dual member and rural-urban, were not included as this court application at the end of June. It’s now almost the possibilities on the government’s primary on-line engage- end of October. When they brought it forward, they applied ment exercise that the Attorney General constantly refers to, for an injunction for this referendum not to proceed. As the nor are they used anywhere else in the world. Te third sys- Attorney General says, they lost. tem, mixed-member proportional, was rejected by the cit- Te Attorney General and the government’s lawyers had izens’ assembly because it was detrimental to rural B.C. and asked for more time. Originally, it was going to be heard because of the shif of voting power to political parties. in September and October, which would have been a fairer So why is it that this government, with the support of thing to do. three Green Party MLAs, is only putting forward three Te courts of this land are the appropriate checks and bal- Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5561 ances on this government. Te court, in its discretion, has tell his ofce to get back to the Leader of the Opposition’s granted additional time to this government. But you need ofce on the debate — with just seven days to go. to ask yourself, Mr. Speaker…. British Columbians all need What the government has done, of course, is pressed on. to ask themselves: why is it that afer 14 months, this gov- Tey’ve pressed on through this court challenge, through the ernment has brought forward and not been able to address concerns expressed by other British Columbians and in this a referendum that’s truly fawed, that has been challenged House, and proposed a second referendum. in the courts, and isn’t prepared to stand up in the courts and address those concerns? Tat would have required more [L. Reid in the chair.] time to do so, beyond September and October. Now what we understand is that this court proceeding will be heard in How is it that this government is proceeding with this January, afer this referendum is concluded. fawed referendum in the face of these legal challenges and Te concerns that are raised in this legal challenge include many unanswered questions from British Columbians? And that the questions and the process adopted by the cabinet they think that promising a second referendum at this late through regulation are inconsistent with constitutional prin- stage will address these concerns. Why doesn’t this govern- ciples in the Charter. So the question goes right to the valid- ment properly engage with British Columbians and address ity of holding what is being proposed and what is moving the serious concerns about the faws in this referendum and forward as a binding referendum to fundamentally change proportional representation voting systems? our electoral system. What’s the rush? It’s only to meet the timeline that this Certainly, another concern that’s been raised has been government agreed to with the three Green Party MLAs in that the questions posed are confusing and unclear and June 2017. Tat’s the rush. Why do the three Green Party undefned. Tat continues to be the case. MLAs get to dictate the timing of a potential fundamental Tirdly, of course, we’ve seen that this government has change to our democratic system to the other 84 MLAs in lowered the approval thresholds to 50 percent and gotten rid this province? It’s all about their single issue — the one issue of any geographic threshold of approval. that these three Green Party members of this House have Fourthly, the regulations that were subject to the Referen- hung onto for the past 14 months. dum Act impose severe restrictions on the abilities of British Te concerns and the faws of this referendum need to be Columbians to communicate about this important issue. resolved before we can go through this referendum and not Lastly, the electoral systems being proposed themselves afer. British Columbians deserve an answer to this. are unconstitutional. Tey undermine the equality of voting Let me say this. Right from the start of the agreement power of voters. We certainly see that as concerns around between this government and those three Green Party section 3 and section 15 of the Charter. Section 3 of the MLAs, they agreed to three things. Tey agreed to hold this Charter states that every citizen of Canada has the right to referendum in the fall of 2018, at the same time as the muni- vote in an election of the members of the House of Com- cipal elections, and they agreed that they would both cam- mons or a legislative assembly and to be qualifed for mem- paign in favour of the referendum. Tis is the reason why, bership therein. Well, how does a closed list under mixed- right from the beginning of this referendum process, it’s member proportional not breach this Charter right for Brit- been fawed. ish Columbians? Te voting system that we use in this province is integral [5:25 p.m.] to our democratic process. It’s not something that political With a body of case law and court decisions recognizing parties should be dictating — the rules, the process to our right to vote under section 3 of the Charter, how does change it. Tis is the fundamental faw in the way this refer- the 5 percent minimum threshold not violate the values and endum process has been run, and holding out a promise of principles that the courts have laid down for the interpret- a second referendum two election cycles from now — efect- ation of this Charter right, including the right to have one’s ively, 12 years from now — does not cure any of these faws. vote count, the right to have one’s vote count the same as oth- One of the other approaches by this government has been er valid votes cast in a district and the right to be represented to limit the mandate of the Chief Electoral Ofcer. In the by a candidate with at least a plurality of votes in a district? summer, the Premier asked the Chief Electoral Ofcer to Tis government has rushed this process in the face of look at the wording of the frst question. But the mandate serious constitutional and Charter concerns. Fundamentally, of his review was limited to just that. He chose to provide there will not be a clear majority expressing their opinion on comment on the language of the second question, but clearly, a clear question. the Chief Electoral Ofcer’s mandate, as he stated in his let- Tis government has restricted British Columbians in the ter, did not extend to the structure or the format of this two- way that they can participate in this debate. Yet the Premier question ballot. has indicated that he’s going to use the full weight of his With that, you can ask the question: who is protecting the ofce — this is a dated reference, I think, at this point — to constitution of this province, the Charter rights of British campaign in favour of this referendum. He should probably Columbians? [5:30 p.m.] 5562 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018

With the way the court has proceeded in a limited man- system will apply to them? How does that make any sense? ner, the way that the mandate of the Chief Electoral Ofcer Without these details, and with a lower approval threshold has been limited as well, whose responsibility is it? It’s the from 60 percent to 50 percent and no geographic approval Premier’s and the Attorney General’s. Tey’re failing in that requirements, there will be no clear majority on a clear ques- responsibility to this province. What we have today is a tion in this referendum. Consequently, as I’ve said, British fawed referendum process whether you’re in favour of pro- Columbians cannot possibly have confdence in the result. portional representation or in favour of keeping our current British Columbians are being asked to give a blank cheque frst-past-the-post voting system. I don’t believe British to the committee of this Legislative Assembly which will be Columbians will have confdence in the result because of the dominated by members of this government and the Green way this has been run — this whole referendum process has Party. British Columbians want to know what understand- been biased — and the way it’s been positioned. ings these two parties have about the details to come afer British Columbians are being asked to vote in this refer- the referendum. Yes, we acknowledge, of course, an Electoral endum without the information we need. Tere are over 20 Boundaries Commission will do its work. But the fact of the important items to be determined afer the vote for dual- matter remains: how the details of any one of these three member, mixed-member and rural-urban systems. As stated voting systems are flled in will frame the structure of those in the Attorney General’s report on page 4: “Tese design boundaries, not the other way around. details can have a signifcant efect on how a voting system [5:35 p.m.] works in practice.”Te details matter. Tese are not technical Given the way this referendum process has been run, why details. Tey’re fundamental to how these voting systems should British Columbians trust this process? In the words will work. A promised second referendum does not deal of a colleague of mine on this side of the House, the MLA with this. for Columbia River–Revelstoke, British Columbians should British Columbians don’t need a second referendum be ofended by this. promise. What they need is what we’ve been asking for in As we stand up in this House and debate this bill for the this House: a clear, fair and transparent referendum with next number of days, we represent the concerns of British all of the details and the riding boundaries being determ- Columbians. Tis is not something that is B.C. Liberal, the ined. Tese items, of course, are being determined afer the party of the governing group, the Green Party. Tis is not an vote, but they’re critical. Whether voters will have one or two issue that splits on partisan lines. We know that many indi- votes under mixed-member to determine regional repres- viduals in this province may support the B.C. Liberal Party, entatives. Whether these representatives will be selected of but they also want proportional representation. Tere are closed lists, which means the party decides who represents other members who are members of the governing party’s them and not voters. party, and they support frst-past-the-post. What will the riding boundaries look like for the electoral What is fundamental in all of this, of course, is how we districts? We know that many of the riding boundaries, elec- vote, how we form our government and how our charter toral districts, will get larger, which will make it more chal- rights are protected. Tis is not just about power. lenging for local representation. And how you vote under Proponents of proportional representation talk about fair- these systems will depend on whether you’re living in a rural, ness. I don’t see how we can accomplish anything like that if urban or semi-urban riding, whether you’re going to have a this is not a fair referendum in the frst place. I’ve had dis- district or a regional representative. cussions with members who are in favour of proportional Tis means that when British Columbians go to start vot- representation. Tey tell me that closed lists, which are an ing seven days from today, they won’t have these details. option at the bottom of page 59 of the Attorney General’s Tey won’t have this information. How is that fair? Tis has report and in the election guide to voters…. Tey say that been a truly fawed process. British Columbians should not closed lists under mixed-member proportional won’t hap- be expected to change their voting system when they don’t pen. How do they know that? have these details, when all of these important details are not Te bottom of the report, on page 59 of the AG’s report, worked out. says: “Te engagement also indicated support for simple bal- As we’ve said on this side of the House, unlike the last ref- lots, which a ‘closed’ list would provide.” It goes on to say: erendum in 2009, we don’t have the riding boundaries. We “Tis is an issue that would beneft from further debate and don’t know how large the ridings will be under the three pro- discussion.” You think? posed forms of proportional representation. We don’t know, So much of this needs to be discussed. How is that discus- truly, what constitutes a rural riding and what constitutes an sion going to go, with the MLAs of the Green Party holding urban or semi-urban riding. Consequently, under rural-urb- the deciding votes on that all-parliamentary committee and an, for example, British Columbians won’t know, when they with this government needing their support to continue to go to vote, whether they’re going to be using mixed-member govern if this referendum passes? What this says to British proportional in their riding or single transferable vote. Columbians is: “Vote for a party. You don’t need to vote for a How is it that we can ask British Columbians to vote on candidate anymore. Leave it up to the political parties. We’ll a voting system when we can’t even tell them what voting Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5563 fgure out what’s best, who is best to represent you in your Langara will be happy that the 24-page voter’s guide from community.” Elections B.C. was sent out today, with information on Tat is the possibility that’s spelled out in the election both the ballot and the four systems that will be on that voter’s guide on page 17. Tis is what British Columbians ballot — the three proportional representation and frst- are being presented with. How is it responsible for this gov- past-the-post. ernment or members of this House to present such an ill- I also encourage the member to look at the confdence and defned set of alternatives to British Columbians? supply agreement, which included banning big money from A promise of a second referendum clearly does not politics, bringing in lobbying reform, reforming professional address this blank-cheque approach. How do we expect reliance, revitalizing the environmental assessment process voters to understand what they’re voting on when there and bringing in a climate plan for British Columbia, among are so many details to be determined? Tis referendum is many other policies and pieces of legislation that truly mat- so complex that many British Columbians may just throw ter to the people of this province. up their hands and not vote at all. With no minimum We have an extraordinary opportunity to make our elec- participation or quorum requirement, this fundamental toral system better. Te legislation in front of us today, the change could occur with the minority of British Columbi- Electoral Reform Referendum 2018 Amendment Act, gives ans who vote. A second referendum does not address any us a second opportunity to decide, afer two election cycles, of these concerns either. if proportional representation is working for B.C. Tis government has clearly let British Columbians down. If this fall’s referendum on electoral reform results in a It has failed in its responsibilities to this province. It’s not transition to proportional representation in B.C., this legisla- running this referendum for the people. It’s doing it for tion amendment will ensure that afer two general elections themselves. It’s time that British Columbians see this for have been held using a proportional representation voting what it is and for the members of this House to think long system, there will be a subsequent referendum in which the and hard about what we are all doing here, participating in voters of B.C. can decide whether to stay with proportional this sham of a referendum. Tis is not electoral reform. Tis representation or revert to frst-past-the-post. is the agenda for more power of the two parties that got Tis gives all voters of B.C. an opportunity to determine together to form our current government. if they are happy with the changes brought in by propor- [5:40 p.m.] tional representation. It is interesting, and I think important, British Columbians should be asking: just who is this gov- to note that no country has ever switched to proportional ernment working for, which people? It talks ofen about the representation and then switched back to frst-past-the-post. people that it works for. But who are these people? I think Nor has any country ever switched from proportional rep- with the way this referendum is being run, it’s the people and resentation to a frst-past-the-post or majoritarian system. the party hierarchy, the ones who will dictate which persons Te debate around this referendum, the referendum will be candidates on their party list — closed, open or open taking place this fall, particularly from the “no to propor- with a party option, as stated on the Elections B.C. website. tional representation” side, has been mostly about what Tis isn’t about putting people at the centre of our politics. you should fear. I am more of a hope person, myself, and Tis is about putting parties at the centre of our politics. an evidence person, so let’s look at what research and evid- Tat is what this government is doing. Tis isn’t about rein- ence have to say. vigorating our democracy. Tis referendum is undermining Arend Lijphart, a world-renowned political scientist, our democracy. It’s been a failed process. You can’t reinvigor- spent his entire career studying various features of demo- ate our democracy if British Columbians aren’t engaged and cratic life in frst-past-the-post, or majoritarian, and pro- participating with this referendum process. rep democracies, which he called “consensus democra- Tis about making politics work for political parties cies.” In his landmark 2012 study, he compared 36 demo- themselves, with the shif in voting power from voters them- cracies over 55 years. selves, with that direct level of accountability for their rep- What did he conclude? Proportional representation resentatives, to political parties who will determine who will democracies are kinder, gentler democracies. He also notes represent British Columbians in this House. that the majoritarian model of democracy is exclusive, com- Te Premier and this government have not met the high petitive and adversarial, whereas the consensus model is bar they set for themselves, and this last-minute amendment characterized by inclusiveness, bargaining and compromise. to the Electoral Reform Referendum Act, with a promise of a For this reason, consensus democracy could also be termed second referendum, is not addressing the faws in the refer- “negotiation democracy.” endum process to date. Te Premier and this government are [5:45 p.m.] not providing the responsible leadership that our province Let’s hold those images — kinder, gentler democracies, needs for this referendum. British Columbians deserve bet- negotiation democracies. We can come back to Lijphart’s ter, much better. and others’ fndings later. Te opportunity we have in B.C. this fall, the opportunity to modernize our democracy, is one S. Furstenau: I expect the member for Vancouver- that we should not fear. 5564 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018

Te three proportional representation system choices on serious threat to democracy. We are seeing daily examples the ballot deliver the values that were prevalent in the public of how power, as the driving force in a democracy, is a dis- engagement process initiated by the Attorney General last torting and damaging force. We need only look to what fall. Over 91,000 British Columbians submitted their input, unfolded in Ontario to see the truly distressing impacts a record for public engagement in B.C. this approach is creating. What emerged from the engagement were four key values Te Progressive Conservatives got 40.49 percent of the that the citizens of B.C. want to see in a proportional repres- vote in the election in June, and 58 percent of eligible voters entation system. Tey want local representation, simplicity, cast ballots, which means that just under 23.5 percent of eli- no signifcant increase to the number of MLAs in the Legis- gible voters in Ontario voted for a party that currently has a lature and proportionality. All three systems of proportion- majority of seats in the Ontario Legislature. Fewer than one al representation on the referendum ballot deliver these out- in four eligible voters delivered 100 percent of the power to comes. In addition, no region of B.C. will have fewer MLAs Premier Ford. than it does today, and no party would be eligible to have Afer the election, an adviser to the Premier’s campaign seats in the Legislature unless they received at least a 5 per- told the National Post that to win the election, the campaign cent threshold of the vote. relied on “literally thousands” of on-line ads targeting specif- All three proportional representation systems will deliver ic geographic and demographic groups. Apparently, the tar- to every voter an MLA, just like today. All three proportional geting was so precise that “a husband and wife should not representation systems deliver local representation and have seen the same ads.” provide voters the opportunity to vote for the individual can- [5:50 p.m.] didates they want to support. Indeed, it’s even better than Tis is an approach described in Susan Delacourt’s 2013 that, because constituents will have more than one represen- book Shopping for Votes. Parties have learned that rather tative in the Legislature. than focusing on an overarching vision and platform, it’s Under mixed-member proportional, each riding will have more efective, under frst-past-the-post, to identify what a local MLA elected, just like today. However, in addition to specifc demographics of voters want and promise to deliver the local MLA, there will also be regional MLAs. Te bene- it to them. ft of this is you will have representation, just as you do now Democracy has increasingly become a game of political from your local MLA, but you will also have representation parties fguring out how to woo small pockets of potential from regional MLAs — meaning that people will be working voters based on tapping into self-interest and less and less collaboratively, and ofen across party lines, to represent you about parties and politicians putting forward a coherent vis- and their constituents efectively. ion for the future that works to forge consensus. Election Under dual-member, ridings would be paired, and they campaigns are not bringing us together. Tey are sowing would have two MLAs for each riding. One MLA would seeds of disunity and fragmentation. be elected under frst-past-the-post, just like today, and the While Doug Ford never produced a costed platform or second would be elected based on the proportional out- a unifying vision to the voters of Ontario, he did promise comes of the election. We would have the same number of buck-a-beer, cheaper gas and tax cuts. So there we were, MLAs in the House, but there would be two to represent three months into Ford as Premier, and he had done what no each riding. Again, you have MLAs working together, ofen Premier of Ontario has ever done — choosing to invoke the across party lines, to best represent you. notwithstanding clause of the Canadian Charter of Rights Rural-urban would be a combination of mixed-member and Freedoms. proportional, with local and regional MLAs for rural ridings, Ford’s choice to invoke the notwithstanding clause, to and single transferable vote, with ballots where you rank the order Ontario MPPs back to the Legislature to force another candidates and ultimately have a group of MLAs represent- piece of legislation through — which he can do, because one ing larger urban ridings, MLAs that would need to work in four eligible voters delivered to him a majority of seats and collaboratively and across party lines to best represent their 100 percent of the power — is a gobsmacking rejection of the constituents. foundations of our democracy in Canada. What if you don’t like the job that one of those MLAs Tis is not the only questionable step that Premier Ford has done? Same as today. Don’t vote for him or her in the has taken since his election in June. He cancelled the basic next election. Tat’s pretty straightforward accountability. income pilot underway in Ontario, an approach that eco- All three systems deliver MLAs that you choose and you can nomists around the world are recognizing as a necessary turn to, just like today. step in our world of growing automation and inequality. By voting yes for proportional representation, we would He stripped the sex ed curriculum back to the 1990s. He choose to join over 90 democracies around the world that scrapped the cap-and-trade program and the Green Ontario have proportional systems, including 85 percent of OECD fund, which resulted in a $100 million loss of funding for countries. What none of the systems delivers is 100 per- school repairs across Ontario. He froze public sector hiring. cent of power to one party based on 40 percent of the vote. It’s not that there may well be issues with some of the pro- Tis outcome, so consistent, is becoming an increasingly grams and the funding, but it’s the unilateral, non-evidence Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5565 approach to cancelling programs that is worrying. Tese are We are, perhaps more importantly, losing the type of leader- also clear examples of policy lurch, a common phenomenon ship that brings us together, that encourages us to celebrate in frst-past-the-post systems. Policy lurch is when one gov- our diferences while recognizing our shared humanity — ernment comes in and undoes the policies and legislation of the kind of leadership that roots us in compassion, kindness the previous one. Tese policy lurches are ofen incredibly and empathy. costly to taxpayers. I’ve been refecting on these questions for a very long Te withdrawal of Ontario from the carbon cap-and-trade time. Tere’s a letter I wrote in the midst of the 2000 fed- markets and the cancellation of contracts is costing taxpay- eral election campaign. It was published in the Globe and ers of Ontario a great deal indeed. According to a July 4 Mail. It read: Global News report: “Some of the number-crunchers have “Coverage of the federal election has compelled me to stop writing estimated that Ford’s decision could cost Ontario about $420 my thesis on medieval theology and tear myself away from the 12th million in federal transfer payments that were targeted for century long enough to state the reasons why I will not vote for Stock- environmental programs.” well Day and the Alliance party. “As a historian, I think about how Mr. Day and his policies will ap- Ten there’s the concern about companies that purchase pear when people look back at our time. I believe he will be seen as a permits under cap-and-trade and the concern about com- divisive force, since he neatly divides this society into ‘us’ and ‘them,’ panies that purchase permits under the cap-and-trade and like any good ideologue, he defnes these two categories in oppo- programs. sition to each other. ‘We’ are the citizens; ‘they’ are the criminals. We are the hard-working; they are the lazy poor. We are the righteous; A mouse just ran by. Tere’s a mouse in the House, they are the deviant. We are the threatened; they are the feared…. Madame Speaker. “Historically, Mr. Day will be recognized as a politician who was It’s estimated that the province — and that means you and willing to capitalize on the fears and insecurities that are inherent in me, in Ontario — could be on the hook for about $3 billion a world view that sets people in opposition to each other. What Mr. Day and the Alliance fail to acknowledge is that there are no neat di- to refund those purchases. Let’s step back. Te decision of visions, no simple ways to categorize human beings and that in the the Premier to undo the legislation and policies of the previ- future, societies will be judged as enlightened according to the degree ous government could cost the voters of Ontario somewhere to which they recognize what unifes us as humans, rather than what in the neighbourhood of $3.4 billion. One party with 40 per- divides us.” cent of the vote has unilaterally made these decisions, heed- As Doug Ford rages against the judges’ decision, as Don- less of the cost not just to the economy but to the atmosphere ald Trump rages against pretty much everything, as politi- and to our environment. cians increasingly focus on divisive politics, I think my fears A democracy, all democracies, must have built-in checks about where Stockwell Day’s tendencies could take us were on power. Democracies are meant to disperse power across not misplaced. When our so-called leaders are so deeply self- diferent bodies so that no single body or individual can act focused, so petty, so willing to be their worst selves, where do unilaterally. Te judiciary is a check on the power of the gov- we fnd the inspiration to be our best and to see ourselves as ernment executive. To reject that check on power is to erode part of a greater whole, to work towards a shared vision that democracy. Ford is choosing instead to insist that he does will beneft the many, rather than just the few? I am increas- have all the power and that nobody should be allowed to ingly anxious about the path we seem to be on, which makes question that power. me increasingly determined to do all I can to help us choose Tis is not the Canada that I grew up in, not the demo- a better one. cracy my father taught me to be fercely proud of and fercely Back to the research on democracies. What else can we protective of. What are we at risk of losing as our democratic learn from Lijphart and others? You can read his book, Pat- institutions are treated with such contempt by those who terns of Democracy, on line. should, in fact, be protecting them? Far too much. More than Countries using proportional systems enact policies that I think we want to imagine. refect the views of the majority. Citizens are more satisfed [5:55 p.m.] with their democracies, even when their preferred party is What I fear is that our politics — driven by our electoral not in power. More women and more Indigenous people are system, driven by vote-shopping, driven by an increasing elected to ofce. Elected ofcials are more responsive to the tendency towards populism, driven by the eforts to win electorate. Youth voter turnout is higher. Citizens have high- swing votes in swing ridings — are becoming increasingly er levels of political knowledge. devoid of the kind of leadership we desperately need right Under proportional representation, there are far fewer now, leadership that lifs us up, that encourages us to look policy lurches where successive governments spend time at our world and ask: “How do we make this better?” We and money undoing the policies of the previous government. are losing the type of leadership that holds itself to a higher Instead of the focus that we see too ofen under frst-past- standard, that recognizes the true burden of elected ofce, the-post on short-term and wedge issues, pro-rep govern- which is that we must put service to our constituents, our ments are better long-term managers. Proportional govern- province and our people frst. ments tend to have higher surpluses and lower levels of debt We are losing the type of leadership that inspires all of us to want to be in service to something greater than ourselves. 5566 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018

than frst-past-the-post governments. Tey have lower levels proportional governments than it is under frst-past-the- of income inequality. post governments. Te list goes on. Pro-rep countries score better on trans- On the way home from the Union of B.C. Municipalities parency, they have lower levels of corruption, and it’s pro- a few weeks ago, we were in line for the bufet on the ferry. rep countries that are doing the best on environmental pro- Ahead of us was a couple with their one-year-old baby, Bene- tection and action on climate change, while in frst-past-the- dict, held in the arms of his tall father. He was bright-eyed, post America and Ontario, steps that had been taken on alert and playful. We played some peekaboo, which at one these fronts are being undone by current administrations. point elicited a deep laugh that enveloped Benedict’s entire Yes, there are challenges, but the compiled data and evid- body. He reached out his hand, one fnger extended. I slowly ence paint a very compelling picture and support the argu- reached out mine, and afer our fngertips touched, he seized ment that societies and democracies generally fair much bet- my entire fnger, and he wouldn’t let go. ter under proportional representation. As his dad moved forward in the line, so did I, connected [6:00 p.m.] to little baby Benedict. His gesture was one of trust, one that What the no side is not talking about so much are coun- comes from our fundamental instinct and need, as humans, tries that also operate under frst-past-the-post — the U.S.A., to connect. As I stood there, my fnger in Benedict’s tiny fst, the U.K. and Canada — but also, for example, Venezuela, I thought about this referendum. I thought about our future Gambia and Myanmar. and what I wanted to convey to people. We need true leadership now, and we need an electoral Benedict, the baby, has no idea of the challenges we face system that creates a kinder, gentler democracy. We are not in the world today, but we do. It’s up to us to make it the going to solve the extraordinary challenges we are facing best world we can for him and for each child who depends with a winner-take-all system that does not encourage the on us to make the best choices for them and their futures. best in all of us. One big step we can take for Benedict in B.C. is to move to In B.C., the fres that produced weeks of smoke that blot- a kinder, gentler democracy so that he and all children can ted out our skies and scratched our throats, made our lungs have the hope of growing up in a kinder, gentler world. Let’s hurt and our hearts ache, are not natural or inevitable. But seize this extraordinary opportunity we have in front of us to without serious and signifcant eforts to change forest man- build that kinder, gentler democracy. agement practices, they are likely to get worse. As Hurricane Florence pummeled the Carolinas, there were more giant B. D’Eith: I wanted to thank the member for Cowichan storms on our planet than ever recorded. Valley for her very thoughtful words and also for working so In the afermath of Hurricane Michael, the President of closely with us on this fle. I’ve really enjoyed working with the United States has suggested that “climate change might you on this. It is very important, and I appreciate the passion not be caused by humans,” that he did not want to take any you put into this. Tank you. actions that would harm the American economy and that the Today we’re talking to Bill 40, the Electoral Reform Refer- warming of the planet by industrial emissions would reverse endum 2018 Amendment Act. of its own accord. [6:05 p.m.] Te cost of Hurricane Harvey, which pummeled Texas last If proportional representation is implemented, this bill year, was $125 billion. Hurricane Maria was $90 billion. Cli- will basically say that there needs to be a subsequent ref- mate change is very much harming economies of nations erendum on whether to continue with proportional repres- around the world, and in the face of the IPCC report released entation or to go back to the old frst-past-the-post system. last week, any leader unwilling to recognize that our greatest Tis must happen within 13 months afer the month of the challenge in today’s world is climate change is exhibiting the second election. Tat’s the time frame. most reckless behaviour imaginable. Tis is nothing new or no surprise. Te legislation fulfls a Gwynne Dyer wrote the book Climate Wars, in which commitment made by the province based on recommenda- he recognized the increasing pressures nations would feel tions from the Attorney General’s report on electoral reform, as immigration mounted due to the swaths of the planet a report that consulted with 90,000 British Columbians — becoming uninhabitable because of impacts from climate and was actually the largest public consultation ever — and change. Rather than stoking fear, we need leaders to be came up with questions that were adopted, which Elections working collaboratively and globally to fnd solutions to B.C. found to be clear and straightforward, which is com- these mounting challenges, not using them as political fod- pletely diferent than what the B.C. Liberals are saying. Tis der to win swing ridings. confrming referendum would allow British Columbians, I’m currently reading Gwynne Dyer’s latest book on the not politicians but British Columbians, to have the fnal say future of democracy called Growing Pains. His premise? on voting. Inequality and automation are serious threats to social and I did want to address a few issues that the member for political stability, and we’re going to need to embrace solu- Vancouver-Langara brought up. One of them is that it’s tions to these growing challenges if we hope to see demo- going to take 12 years until we get to this. In fact, the most cracy survive. Inequality is held in check far better under it would take is about eight years. I appreciate the fact that Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5567 he is confdent that PR — and I’m confdent that PR — will voted for was not in power. Tat’s because governments have actually create stable governments that will last full terms. I to work together with parties. Tat means they have a voice. appreciate the member for that. Tat means even the people that aren’t in government have a Te reality is that this is another example of how the B.C. chance to infuence policy. Liberals are willing to say whatever it takes for voters to get Tere is only a small increase in the number of parties in confused, even if it isn’t accurate. Tis was actually a com- parliament. You will hear this from the B.C. Liberals during pletely inaccurate statement, based on a clear reading of the this entire debate. You’ve heard it through the entire debate legislation, and it’s just another example. — that suddenly all these fringe parties will come up. Well, A second thing that the member brought up was the court the reality is that there’s only a small increase, around the challenge and said this is unconstitutional. Well, I’d like to world, in the number of parties in parliament. read from the court case, Independent Contractors and Busi- [6:10 p.m.] nesses Association vs. British Columbia, where the judge actu- A very important consideration is that the share of women ally said: “I fnd that the petitioners are now engaged”— I elected as legislators was up by 8 percent. In addition to need my glasses for this; it’s really good, but I have to be that, scores were higher on the measures of political parti- able to read it — “in rhetoric, conjecture and exaggeration. cipation and civil liberties, so more people are voting. As Tere is no evidence to support their assertions that the ref- the member said, it created a kinder, gentler democracy. I erendum process is intended to produce a particular result, think that’s what people want. I believe that B.C.’ers would which the government favours, or that it rushed the process, love to see that. Tey would love to see a less adversarial or that the provincial respondents have delayed the hearing and more cooperative government. Afer two cycles, if they of the petition.” believe that’s the case, then they’ll keep that system going. I mean, this is completely contrary to what the member What can B.C.’ers expect from proportional representa- was saying. Te member, in fact, also said that frst-past-the- tion? Well, it will give voters more choice. It gives a stronger post is integral to the democratic process. Well, I put to you, voice to voters in every region of the province. It makes gov- members, that in fact what he really means is that it’s integral ernment more accountable and focuses on priorities of those to the B.C. Liberals getting power back. people. Parties will have to work together to get things done Now, this ability for the B.C. people to have a say in their for British Columbians. Tis actually will decrease cynicism electoral system is part of the overall question that we’re and increase voter turnout for our youth. It will make gov- asking British Columbians to ask this fall. In fact, we have ernment more refective of the diversity of our province, and an historic opportunity to make a change that would pro- probably the most important thing is it actually puts people foundly and positively impact on B.C. politics for genera- at the centre of politics. tions, and we will lead the way for the rest of the country I frst became truly engaged in the fght for proportional and, perhaps, even North America. We have an opportun- representation during the 2015 federal election. At that time, ity to change our voting system so that everyone’s vote will I was a candidate for Pitt Meadows–Maple Ridge, and I was count. actually trying to get my young adult children and their Some people may be concerned by change in B.C. Tat’s friends interested in the election. One night, a number of why the provisions of Bill 40 are a great option for the friends and the family were sitting in my living room, and we province, because it gives the people of British Columbia a were discussing why young voters weren’t voting. One of my chance to try proportional representation and see whether it oldest son Sheldon’s friends said that he just didn’t think it works for them. mattered. He didn’t think it counted — that whatever he did I am confdent that they will. Afer spending a lot of time wouldn’t actually count for anything. examining proportional representation, I know that B.C. will In my riding, I can understand that, given the history that be happy with the results. I’m confdent that we will have a the Conservatives have been voted in over and over and over chance to experience PR, proportional representation, and again. I can understand that. Tis man wasn’t apathetic, as that voters will choose to keep it. many portray our youth. Tey are actually very engaged. He I also wanted to address Arend Lijphart, who’s studied this cared passionately about education, about jobs, about hous- proportional representation so much. He’s world renowned ing and the less fortunate. He just didn’t feel that he was as a political scientist. He’s spent his entire career studying empowered by our voting system. various features of democratic life in majoritarian and pro- Imagine this same young man being able to vote under portional democracies. proportional representation. No matter what, his vote Looking at a number of specifc indicators, he found that would count towards part of the outcome. Under pro rep, countries using proportional representation had a higher 25 percent of the vote means 25 percent of the power. Tat voter turnout — 7.5 percent higher. Secondly, government means he would be more likely to vote and participate in policies were closer to a view of the median voter, so it rep- our democracy. resented the people, the voters. Troughout the world, proportional representation sys- Citizens were more satisfed with the performance of their tems generally enjoy a higher voter turnout, especially country’s democratic institutions, even when the party they among the young. In fact, this same sentiment is shared by 5568 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 all age groups. Too many people feel that their vote simply deliver governments with 100 percent of the power with only doesn’t count and that their vote is wasted. Tis applies to 40 percent of the votes. people stepping up to run. Hey, I understand. I understand why the B.C. Liberals are It’s actually really interesting. I talked to one councillor at the only party that is opposing the move to proportional UBCM, which is where the government meets with all the representation, because for B.C. Liberals, it’s about power. municipalities. He or she — I’m not going to say; I know It’s not about people. We saw that with the desperate clone there’s an election coming up, so I won’t say who it is — is a speech that the B.C. Liberals, when they were trying to cling councillor in a rural area in British Columbia. Tis council- to power…. Oh how quickly they were willing to throw away lor is very progressive and cares a great deal about things like their principles in order to retain government. homelessness, mental health, addictions, seniors, opportun- “Believe us now,” they said. “We’ll start listening now,” ities for youth, poverty and other important issues that our they said. “Now that we haven’t, for over a decade and a government is tackling right now. half…. Suddenly, we believe in child care. We’ll get big Tis councillor has been asked to run as a progressive money out of politics. We’ll get the tolls of the bridges. We’ll candidate and would like to, but because the seat is safe, fx the housing crisis,” and so on, and so on. Well, no one this councillor will not run. In fact, this councillor went so believed that. In fact, when the B.C. Liberals were in power, far as to say it would be political suicide to run as a pro- they made everyone pay more for everything while cutting gressive candidate in this councillor’s riding, even though, in services like health and education. fact, the majority of people voting in that councillor’s rid- Te truth is the old, outdated frst-past-the-post system ing don’t actually vote for the B.C. Liberals. Even though it’s only really works for those people at the top. Te B.C. Lib- considered a safe riding, the majority of people don’t vote for erals and their wealthy friends are desperate to keep the old the B.C. Liberals, who have a safe seat. Tat is fundament- way of voting because it makes it easier to control the gov- ally wrong, and that is fundamentally what is wrong with ernment with a minority of votes. the frst-past-the-post system. Too many people feel that the With frst-past-the-post, the B.C. Liberals can cut services current system isn’t working. and make life more expensive while doing favours for their With Bill 40, it will allow people to see the benefts of rich friends. We see that the B.C. Liberals pretend to care proportional representation and then afrm the system afer about people when they are campaigning but largely ignore two election cycles. Giving B.C. the chance to try propor- that when they form government. Tey pick and choose tional representation will allow B.C.’ers to see how well the voters they care about based on where they’re most likely to system can work and how the system can avoid pitfalls in the win seats, and everyone else can take a backseat. current frst-past-the-post system. Proportional representation can fx this. With Bill 40, B.C.’ers see situations like Ontario, like Doug Ford, who B.C.’ers will have the comfort to see these benefts, determine ran a divisive, Trump-style campaign, won 40 percent of the for themselves whether they like it and assess a new system votes and took 100 percent of the power. He doesn’t have to afer two election cycles. In being able to determine whether work with anyone. His decisions are hurting the most vul- to continue with the proportional representation in a second nerable in the province, and he can do this with impunity. referendum, B.C.’ers will get a chance to see whether what [6:15 p.m.] the proponents are saying is true or not, and that in pro rep, He is threatening to invoke the notwithstanding clause of everyone’s vote counts. Tey’ll fgure out: is this true or not? the constitution. Tat’s unbelievable. Tese are things that We’ll fnd out. I believe that’s true. should happen only in the most egregious or large situations, Regardless of where you live, you can vote for a candidate in terms of issues, and he’s willing to do it willy-nilly. Tat is of your choice without worrying about a wasted vote or a very troubling. Te fact is that 60 percent of Ontarians did strategic vote. Proportional representation will strengthen not vote for this majority government. the voice of people from every region of the province Now, again, this just happened with the populist, anti- because every vote will count, and MLAs won’t be able to immigration Coalition Avenir Québec. Tey won a majority ignore voters anymore. of seats in their House with only 37.5 percent of the vote. Another consideration is the present system promotes Tat means over 60 percent of Quebecers didn’t vote for this adversarial politics, whereas there’ll be a more cooperative party, but they have 100 percent of the power, with less than system under proportional representation. Parties have to 40 percent of the vote. work together to get things done. In British Columbia, since 1928, there’s only been one Right now, as was brought up by the other side, we have a majority government with over 50 percent of the vote. Tat supply and confdence agreement with the B.C. Green Party. means that for nearly 100 years, our system has allowed a Tis means that, in fact, nearly 60 percent of the voters are minority of voters to control 100 percent of the power. being listened to in this House. Cooperation means that Te B.C. Liberals, we all know, are a big-tent coalition. We parties need to work together, and that’s exactly what’s been know that the only way that they can get and retain power happening in our government. is through a system that allows a minority of the voters to One example is the Wild Salmon Advisory Council in which the B.C. Green MLA for Saanich North and the Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5569

Islands was asked to participate. He participated enthusiast- vious part of this debate; complaints about the process, ically. His participation was well received, and it had a great which we’ve heard about in this debate — to stop people impact. It’s an indication of how governments would have to from voting for proportional representation. operate under proportional representation. Now, voices like Te no side, the B.C. Liberals and their friends have a lot that are silenced under frst-past-the-post. at stake personally in this. Tey fear this because they’re ter- It’s important to actually enhance people’s passions, like rifed. One of their tools to cling to power is being taken the member for Saanich North and the Island, for things like away. Well, we’ve already banned big money from elections, wild salmon. He’s passionate about that, and we should listen and now we have a historic chance to fnish the job and to that voice. Under PR, those voices would be encouraged have a system where everyone’s vote will count. We have a and welcomed. Again, B.C.’ers will see the beneft of pro- chance to put power back in the hands of regular people, not portional representation when they’re asked to consider the just the wealthy and well-connected, and elect a government second referendum under Bill 40. that will work for everyone. We have a chance to fnally put Parties under PR have to be more accountable. Tey won’t people in the centre of politics. be able to just ram through agendas and get away with it. Bill 40 gives these same people, the people of British [6:20 p.m.] Columbia, the chance to kick the tires and make sure that Te majority of countries around the world now use a they’re happy with being in the centre of the decision-mak- form of PR, proportional representation. We’re seeing from ing in B.C. I am sure that they will be happy. their governments that governments are more stable. People I’ll be voting for Bill 40 and hope that all members in the have a greater sense of satisfaction in a democracy. Tere’s a House will do the same. greater diversity among elected ofcials, and there’s a better voter turnout, especially with the youth. B. D’Eith moved adjournment of debate. A real great example of this is New Zealand. Tis country has had proportional representation for over two decades, Motion approved. and it’s a particularly good example because this country moved from frst-past-the-post to a system of mixed-mem- Tabling Documents ber proportional. Teir experience is similar to what we’re experiencing now. Hon. L. Beare: I would like to table the 2017-2018 annual I actually had the pleasure of meeting and chatting with report for the B.C. Arts Council. former Prime Minister Helen Clark on a recent visit to Canada, and she told me her experience with proportional Hon. D. Eby: I move a recess of the House until seven representation. In fact, she was initially opposed to propor- o’clock this evening. tional representation and voted against it. It was only afer becoming Prime Minister under the new system that Helen Motion approved. Clark realized how powerful proportional representation could be. She saw the number of women in parliament Te House recessed from 6:23 p.m. to 7:01 p.m. double, the number of Indigenous members grow, the num- ber of members of colour increase. Youth voter engagement [R. Chouhan in the chair.] increased, as did overall voting numbers. She witnessed a change in the culture of parliament, from Hon. B. Ralston: I call continued debate on the adjourned adversarial to cooperative. In fact, even the style of Prime debate on Bill 40. Ministers had to change. Instead of the autocratic leadership style under frst-past-the-post, Prime Ministers in New Zea- Second Reading of Bills land must work with other parties and with other people. Tis has actually led to a much more positive political land- BILL 40 — ELECTORAL REFORM scape in New Zealand. REFERENDUM 2018 AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 Once a skeptic, Helen Clark is now one of the biggest (continued) champions for proportional representation in the world. It is this same kind of initial skepticism or fear of change that T. Stone: It does give me a great deal of pleasure to rise makes Bill 40 so important, because people have a safety today to speak to Bill 40. I rise today on a point of profound valve. Tey can see how great the new system is, and they’ll importance, the subject of which leans neither lef nor right have the opportunity to reafrm their decision or return to in the spectrum of B.C.’s politics. For what I hope to instill in the old system. this House today goes far, far beyond political stripes. Over the next several weeks, there’s going to be a lot of Tis is not about being a B.C. Liberal, a New Democrat, rhetoric and misleading claims from the other side. Tey’re a Green, but rather, it’s about the basis of who we are at going to use every trick in the book — fearmongering, just our core and what we stand for in this province. Our demo- like we heard; misinformation, just like we heard in the pre- cracy — a democracy that our ancestors fought two great 5570 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 wars to protect for all of us in this House and the generations in place: what would the landscape look like at that time? that will succeed us — is a democracy that can easily be Well, if every other prop rep jurisdiction is any indication, threatened when it’s taken for granted. there would likely be a whole bunch of diferent parties, most I think of these wise words adapted from those of Franklin of them small parties, most of them with only a handful D. Roosevelt: “Let us never forget that government is our- of seats in this chamber. Presumably, no party would have selves and not an alien power over us. Te ultimate rulers a majority, and there would be a coalition government in of our democracy” are not the elected representatives but place, propped up by a collection of small parties, and the rather the people, the voters. He went on to say: “Democracy propping up only takes place when the small parties can cannot succeed unless those who express their choice are extract the pound or two of fesh that they want in exchange prepared to choose wisely.” And he said that “the real safe- for their support of a coalition government. guard of democracy, therefore, is education.” I’ll repeat that. Te NDP want us to believe that the MLAs of that Legis- Te real safeguard of democracy is education. lature, a legislature that would be characterized by a frac- Sadly, in British Columbia’s upcoming referendum on tured minority parliament, would play ball and would agree electoral reform — the most sacred aspect of our democracy to hold another referendum when the sole purpose of doing being how we elect our MLAs — this government has con- so would be to potentially put their small parties out of busi- veniently and, apparently, purposefully chosen to direct the ness if British Columbians were to decide to revert back to people to research proportional representation on Google — frst-past-the-post. an astonishing directive from the Premier, a shocking dis- You know and I know that this will not happen. Rather, play of leaderless leadership. Suggesting that British Colum- via a simple amendment to the Referendum Act, the coali- bians are on their own to navigate this highly divisive issue, tion government of the day would more likely amend the to fgure out his government’s intentions surrounding our act to remove the requirement for a second referendum. treasured democracy on an Internet search engine, is a In fact, it would likely be a condition of support from the blatant, irresponsible abandonment of education and fair- small parties in exchange for propping up that coalition ness. Again, the real safeguard of democracy is education. government. [7:05 p.m.] Tis would be just like what we saw in the beginning of Now, this brings me to Bill 40, which amends the refer- this parliament. One of the very frst acts of the NDP-Green endum act to provide for a requirement to hold a second cooperation that we have here in British Columbia today was referendum afer two elections. Tis would happen should to amend the legislation to reduce the threshold for ofcial British Columbians decide in this current referendum to party status to only two MLAs. Why? Because the Greens replace our current frst-past-the-post system with some demanded this from the NDP in their negotiations. It was a form of prop rep. Green Party condition. It was included in their supply and Te government wants us all to believe that this bill is confdence agreement with the New Democrats. about providing British Columbians with assurance: “If pro- Now, on top of this, it is unbelievable that the government portional representation doesn’t work well for the people of is bringing forward this commitment to a second referen- British Columbia, if you don’t like it, if we don’t like it as a dum in the middle of the referendum itself. We’re only days province, don’t worry. We can get rid of it at some point in away from ballots actually being mailed out to British the future.” It’s as if to suggest that we should think of this Columbians, and the NDP government has the temerity to as a comfy blanket for citizens to wrap themselves in as they inject this measure into the middle of the referendum cam- take what the Premier recently described as a great leap of paign. Why, you ask. faith. We’re supposed to believe that a second referendum [7:10 p.m.] provides citizens with some sort of guarantee, a safety valve, I do get asked this by lots of British Columbians back in an of-ramp. my constituency. Te answer is that it’s because the NDP and Tink about that. Te message the government is convey- the Greens want to infuence the outcome. Well, I say shame ing is this: “If we mess up with this proportional representa- on them. Bill 40 is nothing more than yet another feature of tion experiment, don’t worry. We can have a do-over. Don’t this entire referendum sham. worry; be happy. It’s not like anything of signifcance is really, To refresh your memory on what a sham this entire ref- truly on the line here.” Of course, all of this is in the con- erendum process has been, let’s start with the 50-percent- text of our democracy and how we elect our MLAs. Well, the plus-one approval. Tat’s down from the 60-percent approv- stark reality is that this manoeuvre by the Attorney Gener- al it required in 2005 and 2009. It’s easier to change a strata al, by the NDP-Greens, is actually quite sad for our province bylaw in this province. Secondly, there’s no regional approval and for our democracy. It’s sad that the NDP and the Greens requirement any longer. Te previous two referendums would play so fast and loose with our democracy. required that 60 percent of all ridings in British Columbia Tat’s not to mention one important detail: you can’t bind had to approve of the change. a future government. We all know this. Te NDP knows this. Tis was the voice of rural British Columbia — the Interi- Te Attorney General knows this as well. or, the north — when it came to matters of this signifcance. Imagine, two elections afer proportional representation is I implore members opposite to travel to the Interior, to the Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5571 north, to talk to British Columbians there. If they did, they the municipal election campaign that’s going on in British would understand that the level of concern and worry in rur- Columbia? Why? What’s the rush? al British Columbia is palpable. Frustration and anger are [7:15 p.m.] building. People are nearing the end of their patience. How about the fact that there was no citizens’ assembly, So much of British Columbia’s wealth is being generated as there was in 2005 and 2009, where citizens actually in rural parts of this province to support the high quality of developed the details of what British Columbians would vote life that we all enjoy as British Columbians, yet they have on? Citizens came up with the ballot. Citizens signed of on such signifcant misgivings and misunderstandings. Folks the maps. Citizens ensured that the recommendations that in urban centres have signifcant misgivings and misunder- British Columbians were asked to consider were developed standings about rural sensibilities. Tis is what folks in rural in a non-partisan, independent manner — again, to instil B.C. feel. Tere’s a signifcant concern that the will of the maximum confdence in the vote that would take place in mass-populated areas of B.C. will increasingly dominate and both of those referendums. Yet in this referendum, all of the overwhelm rural B.C. details have been developed by cabinet behind closed doors. Since British Columbia joined confederation in 1871, fully Tere are no riding maps. We’ve been told time and time 147 years ago, there has always been a grand bargain, of again that there’s no time. Te trains are running here. We’ve sorts, between urban and rural B.C. Tere has always been got to get on with this referendum. Tere’s no time to devel- recognition and respect for the sensibilities of both the urb- op maps. Tere’s no time to show British Columbians where an and rural areas of this province. We can witness this they would fnd themselves in a reconstituted parliament through the massive investments that have been made by with — pick one of the three proportional representation successive governments, be they Conservative, Social Credit, options — approximately half as many ridings in this cham- B.C. Liberal and NDP over the years, to open up this great ber. No time for maps. province with highways and ferries and hydroelectric dams, Tere’s no advance voting opportunity. We’ve heard from railways, mines, and on and on the list goes. organizations like the Snowbird Association, which repres- We see this balancing of interests in our province ents tens of thousands of British Columbians who will be through the accommodation that exists with respect to leaving the country. Yes, they can make arrangements ahead the practical application of representation by population, of time to have a ballot sent to them wherever they happen whereby we have urban ridings in B.C. that are ofen very to be, whether that’s Arizona or somewhere in Europe and small in geographic size, packed with incredible density, whatnot. A lot of the people that I’ve been talking to — and ofen in excess of 100,000 residents; and we have rural rid- I have a lot of snowbirds in my riding — are telling me that ings in B.C. that are ofen much, much larger in geograph- they go to Arizona so that they don’t have to get mail. Tey ic size but much less densely populated. We have some rid- don’t want to have to pay for a mailbox in Arizona to receive ings with as few as 50,000. a ballot. Tey want to be able to vote before they leave. Tere’s no minimum turnout required for this referen- Why can’t that be made possible? Advance voting oppor- dum. It’s appalling to suggest, as the Premier has, that a tunities would be part of the process if the referendum was 10 percent voter turnout with 50-percent-plus-one support being held in conjunction with a provincial election cam- would constitute a mandate for change. Tere would be no paign. But no, we’re going to do this mail-in ballot, and we’re mandate inherent in that level of a voter turnout, and other going to suppress the ability of people to vote in advance of provinces have recognized this. When Prince Edward leaving the province or leaving the country. Tat’s wrong. Islanders voted in favour of moving to a proportional rep- Tere are somewhere between 24 and 30 details that have resentation system, their government, quite wisely, decided yet to be determined. We hear over and over from folks on to take a pass. Why? Because the voter turnout was so low, the other side and from Fair Vote Canada and proponents of it didn’t constitute a minimum expectation that the public proportional representation that this will all be decided at a would have for making such an important change as how we later date should British Columbians decide to embrace this elect our MLAs. change. Te only problem with that is some of these details We’ve talked about the confusing two-part question. Te are pretty big details, like how many MLAs would actually sit NDP campaigned on a one-part question, a simple yes-no, in this chamber. What would the size of the ridings look like? similar to the ballot that was in front of British Columbians What would the boundaries of those ridings be? We have no in 2005 and 2009. How about the decision to proceed with idea what would constitute a rural riding versus an urban a $14½ million mail-in ballot, when this referendum could riding, as per the third option that’s on the ballot — this rur- have very easily been held in conjunction with a provincial al-urban proportional representation option. election at much, much lower cost and, I would suggest, I can’t tell my constituents today if Kamloops and the likely a much higher voter turnout? massive riding that we would suddenly fnd ourselves within How about the fact that this referendum, the campaign would be constituted as urban or rural, because that detail period, has been laying very nicely over top of the previous hasn’t been determined yet. summer, the summer we just had, and it’s right on top of Tis whole concept of MLAs being appointed of of lists…. Well, fne. Is it a closed list, or is it an open list? We’ll 5572 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 determine that afer the fact. Tese are just a few of the critic- the night, whoever gets the most votes wins. Simple. Easy al details which are going to be lef, presumably, to academ- to understand. ics and experts that the government is going to appoint to sif I can’t support moving to proportional representation. My through and to come back to this Legislature. Oh, but they’ll number one concern, beyond all the process defciencies and come back to an all-party committee, which will have four the fawed process that we just talked about, is the reduction NDPs, four Liberals and one Green on it. I can do the math. in local representation. I’m tired of hearing from the oth- I know who’s going to have the say on that committee at the er side and from Fair Vote Canada that local representation end of the day. It’s going to be the fve NDP-Greens. Tat’s is maintained through each of these three systems. Tat is not right. Tat’s not a fair and transparent process. absolutely not true. Tere are so many other details that are going to be lef Yes, it is true that in each of these systems, there will still to sort out afer the fact. It kind of reminds me…. It’s a per- be members elected directly by local communities to come verse rendition of: “Life is like a box of chocolates.” You pick into this chamber and they will represent those people dir- one, and you just have no idea what you’re going to get. Tat ectly. Tat’s good. But depending on the system you pick, is no way to be managing our democracy. Tat is no way to between 40 and 60 percent of this House would be made demonstrate respect for this democracy that we have here in up of MLAs who don’t represent communities, who are not British Columbia. from the communities that make up this province around Voters are just supposed to look at the ballot and know British Columbia. what the diferences are between mixed-member prop rep, Rural regions will face the very likely prospect of MLAs dual-member prop rep, rural-urban prop rep, two of which not living in their communities. Tis means that Vanderhoof are not in use anywhere in the world. Tey’re supposed to will never have an MLA again. Quesnel will likely never have know what these are and rank them accordingly. an MLA again. Sicamous will not have an MLA again. It [7:20 p.m.] means that Kamloops, Prince George and Kelowna could Te NDP even decided not to include frst-past-the-post end up with an MLA whose home address is 144th Street in the list with the two prop rep options, just in case a major- in Surrey. Te yes side of the debate will deny this, but they ity of British Columbians picked frst-past-the-post as their can’t ofer a shred of evidence to the contrary. second choice, which most likely would have. In that scen- We know that this also means a dramatic increase in the ario, frst-past-the-post would have won. Te referendum size of the ridings, as I have mentioned in my comments to wouldn’t have been successful, and that’s not the objective of this point. As I said, some of the MLAs would be elected, but the NDP-Green government. at least half would be appointed to regions of of party lists Even if you support moving to proportional representa- — details to be sorted out afer the referendum. But what we tion, I have a hard time understanding where there can be do know is that these list MLAs would be picked by political any credibility in the result when the process has been so parties and parachuted into these regions without having to seriously fawed. For the record, again, even if the process actually get a single vote from a voter. wasn’t so fawed — as I have said in this House previously, as Tey will be spared the requirement of actually running I am saying until I am blue in the face at every opportunity for an actual seat, like the Deputy Prime Minister of New I can in my constituency and around the province — I per- Zealand. We hear all about New Zealand, so let’s talk about sonally don’t support making a change to prop rep. New Zealand. Te Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand Now, I’m pleased to be able to speak to my concerns about has tried twice to win a seat in their parliament. He has failed prop rep, unlike the NDP colleagues across the way, who, both times. Why? Because voters didn’t want him to repres- as we’ve recently learned, are not allowed to express their ent them. displeasure or their opposition with government ideas. We [7:25 p.m.] know that there are many NDP supporters across this Yet today, as the result of being appointed of of a party province that don’t support this government when it comes list with proportional representation in play, he fnds himself to their desire to impose electoral reform on this province. now as the Deputy Prime Minister of that country. And We know that there are members in the NDP caucus that minor detail — he represents an anti-immigration party don’t really have their heart in this either. But they’re not that’s now given legitimacy and credibility in the New Zeal- allowed to speak. Tey’re not allowed to speak in opposition and Parliament. I don’t want that for British Columbia. to the government’s plans, and that’s too bad. It also means a shif of power from local voters to political I’ve said many times that when it comes to frst-past- parties. It would be a shif to empower the party bosses in the-post, I also agree it has faws. It’s not perfect. Tere is my party as well, but I can’t support a watering down of no electoral system in this world that is absolutely perfect. the power that voters have to elect an individual, to hold But with frst-past-the-post, we have 87 mini-elections on that person accountable, to know who their MLA is. I don’t election night — 87 ridings, each one that has its own elec- support a system that results in the horse trading and the tion. It’s simple. Voters put an X beside the candidate that backroom deals, which we have a real life example of in this they want to represent them in that riding. At the end of chamber right here, right now. Where is the death of LNG that the Greens promised their Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5573 supporters or the Site C project that wasn’t going to happen change their position, and they decide to vote with the gov- that they promised their supporters? How about the NDP’s ernment. How are we to take from this current example of a $10-a-day child care or the renters rebate? Well, we know minority coalition government that…? “Let’s just make this what happened with all of these commitments. Tat’s just to a permanent fxture. Life will be so much better.” It’s absolute name a few. nonsense. Te NDP and the Greens have said…. Te Green leader Our democracy is much better than this. British Columbi- is on the record, saying — there’s video of him saying it: ans are being asked to vote in a fawed referendum, to make “It’s not what you commit to in an election that matters. It’s a decision on our most treasured right while leaving more what you commit to each other to form a coalition that mat- than 24 critical details to be confrmed afer the vote. We’re ters.” So bye-bye local commitments, bye-bye commitments being asked to take a great leap of faith. We’re being asked to voters, and hello to commitments to political parties. to do so in part because there will be another referendum in I don’t like the trends that we see in many — not a handful two elections’ time. Don’t worry. but many — prop rep jurisdictions around the world, and Democracy is not an experiment. Tis is an unfair, imbal- that is this trend to jurisdictions embracing extremism anced referendum that clearly favours one region of B.C. parties. I’m not going to dwell on all of the examples around over all others, with no regional approval or minimum the world, but I will say this: I’m also just about at my break- turnout requirement. Te fact that just a few can change the ing point in listening to members opposite and to Fair Vote course of history for so many should be enough to frighten Canada people talk about the gentler, kinder, compassionate each and every one of us. Democracy is not easy. It’s ofen society that we will have with proportional representation, messy. But this goes far beyond messy. Tis is a referen- should it be embraced. dum promoted by a government which, by all indications, We’re going to have better social outcomes, better edu- believes and wants us to believe that what we don’t know cation outcomes. We’re going to have stronger economies. can’t hurt us. We’re going to have more concern for the environment, less Today I respectfully urge this House and all of my fellow incarceration rates and a unicorn for every child under the members within it to look deep within, to be honest with age of six. Tis is as if to say that only in proportional rep- yourself like you’ve never been before and consider those resentation jurisdictions will one fnd wealth, will one fnd a words: “Te real safeguard of democracy is education.” high standard of living, will one fnd freedom. I will continue to stand against doing anything that weak- It’s absolute nonsense. Most of the countries in the world ens local representation in this parliament. I stand against that perform the worst, by almost any fnancial indicator this sham of a referendum, and I will vote no to Bill 40. or economic indicator you want to pick, are proportional representation jurisdictions. Tey’re 24 percent more costly A. Olsen: I certainly appreciate the passion that comes to governments. Yet we hear from the other side that they also this place afer the 6 p.m. hour. I’m wondering why it has happen to manage fnances better. No, they don’t. Tese are taken us so long to get to an extended session. countries that for the most part have massive debt-to-GDP I’m pleased to rise today and speak to Bill 40, the Electoral ratios, haven’t balanced a budget that anyone can remember Reform Referendum 2018 Amendment Act. in modern times. Many are on the verge of bankruptcy. First of, I’d like to reiterate my support for democratic Now, there are exceptions to that. Tere are some prop rep elections in our province that actually refect how British jurisdictions in the world that don’t have those kinds of fscal Columbians voted on election day. Seems weird that I’d problems. What this means to me is that just as prop rep is have to say that, no? Does it not make us all a little uncom- not inherently bad or inherently good, neither is frst-past- fortable that our current frst-past-the-post system is the the-post. Tere is so much more that comes into play from a furthest-from-fair system that we could have? A system policy discussion and a policy debate and a policy prioritiz- that rewards poor, politically driven, divisive decision- ation in a jurisdiction than the electoral system at play. making rather than thoughtful, evidence-based policy? In Stop telling me that we’re going to have a kinder, gentler fact, there are numbers of systems that we could adopt that province, that there’s going to be all this collaboration. Tere would ensure that voters’ intentions are actually represen- are 42 members of the opposition here. Te Green Party ted at the end of election day. has voted with us not once — not once — in this chamber. To hear the ofcial opposition defend the status quo, a I’ve moved amendments to legislation, where I’ve had agree- status quo that handed them false majority afer false major- ments, verbal understandings with members opposite in the ity in a desperate bid for yet another false majority is really Green Party to come into this chamber and to amend legis- quite sad. To hear them confused and muddled, to try to lation: “Let’s show British Columbians that we can make this convince British Columbians that it’s better that British Parliament work.” Columbians hand them 100 percent of the power with no [7:30 p.m.] tools to hold them accountable is really quite something. What was the result? We come into this chamber, and the If I was to give a recommendation to British Columbians members in the Green Party get taken into the corner by afer just a few short months in this place, it would be to the House Leader for the government. Moments later they protect your power, protect it with everything that you have, 5574 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 because it is really very powerful. Do not give it to any party Te frst question we have to ask ourselves is…. Tis con- or any individual without the proper checks and balances. Be versation and the passing of the bill during a period of time very critical of anyone who suggests that you give them your when people are restricted from spending money, breaking power with no actual accountability measures. B.C.’s Election Act. Is Elections B.C. okay with this? I can tell I’m excited that British Columbians have the chance to you, some people at Elections B.C. are not. Tey won’t come vote for an electoral system that better represents their out and publicly tell you that, but they are befuddled. I’d be wishes as expressed on election day, something which hasn’t befuddled too, if I was them. happened in this province in a very long time. What we’ve Tey’re being asked to enforce the rules, be prepared to heard from British Columbians of all political stripes and charge people who are raising money wrong, spending experts from across our country is that we have an oppor- money wrong, telling us what we can or cannot say as an tunity to make our government more democratic, more MLA, whether it be partisan or non-partisan, where we can accountable and more collaborative. Te only experience do it from and what platform we can use so we do not break that I have had in this place is one of collaboration, and it’s the Election Act of B.C. When this bill passes, if it does — one that I invite all members to be a part of. and I would hope the members in here think about this — [7:35 p.m.] I can guarantee you, if it doesn’t happen tomorrow, even Today I stand in this House and urge British Columbians before it goes to a third reading, that there will be an email to embrace this opportunity. I stand in support of the Elect- on the government email broadcast about this bill telling oral Reform Referendum 2018 Amendment Act and to give people they’ve got a safety valve. British Columbians the power to change back to the frst- It will go out to tens of thousands of people, paid for past-the-post system afer two general elections if they fnd by public servants, in the middle of a period of time when the change to proportional representation doesn’t serve nobody is allowed to do anything to promote their side of a them. Afer all, that is the job that we have in this place. referendum unless they’re following the rules laid down in the Election Act. Tis is a breach of that act. It’s actually a R. Coleman: I’m glad the member for Saanich North and fraud that I’ve never seen take place in this House before. It’s the Islands is thrilled about sitting for the frst time late into amazing to me. an evening. I was having a conversation with him earlier and Can you imagine how many people are on that list? By explained to him that in the fve years I spent in opposi- the way, I get them too, because I’ve never unsubscribed. tion, we hardly ever sat until seven o’clock. Most nights it was I like to see what they’re up to. Every day fve, six, seven nine, ofen 11 and always to the end of July. So there is good emails go out making some government announcement. and bad in this particular conversation. And you can bet this’ll be one of them, right in the middle I’m going to speak to Bill 40 initially, and then I’ll have of a writ period. Even governments in writ periods don’t some other comments as I go through and tie them back. do this, except this one. Most of the speakers got up and talked about proportional Why? Are you afraid of the opinion of British Columbians representation. I want to talk for a minute about the fraud of so much that you decide you’re going to go play this little the Election Act in British Columbia. shell game to break the rules? We cut of spending for organizations as of a certain date [7:40 p.m.] last summer to be able to go out and talk about proportional Are you dying to see what the challenge will be to the representation. We put spending limits on individual organ- courts of Canada with regards to the fact that you tried izations up to $200,000. Te government decided that to manipulate the vote of people in British Columbia afer $500,000 for the yes and the no side was sufcient to try and the fact, afer you closed the rules with regards to who educate over 2.5 million voters in British Columbia about a could represent, afer you chose the yes and no sides, gave very complicated issue. them their budgets and said nobody can spend more than If I, as an MLA, wanted to put something in the paper $200,000 in individual organizations with regards to that. tomorrow with regards to my opinion or change any of the So my frst question will be: can you show me the $1,200 rules or talk about the rules relative to this particular ref- individual donations, up to $200,000, if you’re going to erendum, I would be under investigation by Elections B.C. stay within your limit? Tonight we’re discussing a bill that has been deliberately put As the government of B.C., to go and put this into the in place because people are nervous they might not like the middle of a referendum is nonsensical. Why didn’t you just outcome of a referendum. wait until you saw the results of the referendum? Why do Te government has decided: “Let’s do something else.” you need to do this now? Because it gives you an additional Let’s be ultra vires in the middle of an education process and promotion that no citizen of British Columbia has the a voting process in British Columbia, as the government, and opportunity to have. And they’re confused. Even Elections say: “Okay, we don’t think you’re quite with us yet, so let’s B.C. is confused by it. give you a little carrot. Let’s put a cherry on top of this thing. I see it as a subversion of a legal process. Not only have you We’ll give you another referendum in eight years afer two misled British Columbians as you tried to put together the elections.” question, which was supposed to be a clear yes-or-no ques- Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5575 tion; you’ve come up with this thing that you have where two only going to fnd out what those factors are if the referen- of the questions aren’t anywhere in the world, where there’s dum should, as a mistake to the history of B.C., be passed.” no education opportunity because you made the budgets so Listen. Tink about this. How many MLAs? What are the small that you can’t even talk to the voters of B.C. — not to sizes of the ridings? Does somebody actually have to put the point where you can actually understand what it is you’re their name on a ballot to be elected? Yes. But can they get trying to have people decide on. And you go ahead and then into the Legislature through the back door because a party decide to do a backhanded, through-the-back-door promo- executive appoints them? Yeah, they can. Imagine that. tion by the government of British Columbia in the middle of All the people, including the Green Party members in an electoral process to change people’s thinking. Wow. It is their history that I’ve listened to over the years, hated the something else. unelected, unaccountable, appointed senate. But they want a Shortly we’re into November. November 11 is Remem- half-unelected, appointed legislature. brance Day. I know, as a child growing up, one of the What happens with the vote that my family fought for and proudest things my father did was vote. If we tracked the the belief in the freedom…? Well, half of it gets fushed by ships that my dad was on during the Second World War in these guys. What constitutes a rural riding or an urban rid- the North Atlantic, in the navy, and what went on at D-Day ing — 200,000 people, 30,000 people? What’s the number? and the ships that were in the English Channel, it was quite How big are the geographies? How do people actually get to likely he was in the English Channel on D-Day. see their MLA? How do they get an issue dealt with? My father-in-law was not on a ship. He was on the beach. I’ve been doing this for 22 years, and not once have I ever He landed with the frst people from Canada to fght for our asked somebody who came through my door, in my con- democracy and our freedoms. stituency, who needed my help how they voted, what party I can tell you that neither one of them today, having they believed in or who they were from that standpoint. Not explained how this thing is set up and how people will once. I don’t believe that an MLA, once elected to represent be able to be on a list of a party, not actually put their a constituency, does anything else but serve the entire con- name on a ballot, and could get appointed as a Member stituency in a non-partisan way. And I’ve seen that. of the Legislative Assembly in British Columbia…. Tey Now, I understand. I know the leader of the Green Party would be stunned. Tey would think, knowing the history is just dying to heckle me. of what brought on that war, that somebody has really Tat would take us down the road about that dinner you missed the boat in Canada about the fact that they’ve for- owe me about the words you were going to eat when LNG gotten about history. got approved and some other conversations and debates It goes deeper than that for me. I’ve always believed in the about diferent kinds of attitudes and behaviour around this vote too. I was in the reserves, and I was in the RCMP. I tried place. But I don’t want to get there. to pass the importance of the vote on to my children and also I want to know whether the list for parties, to decide who the importance of service. I guess I did all right there because gets to be an MLA, is open or closed. Do the parties decide my son chose to serve in Afghanistan. before an election? I know what it’s like when somebody believes in their “Well, we know we’re probably only going to win one actu- country and their freedoms, to be the parent of somebody al seat on the rules, but we might be able to appoint two that’s serving overseas and wondering every single day what more. So, Joe, you and I will have an agreement that we will it’s like to do that — not a conversation I could have talked appoint ourselves MLAs. We won’t raise a dime. We won’t him in or talked him out of. He believes in this country, and articulate a position. We won’t have to talk to a constitu- so did the other young men who I know grew up with him, ent. We won’t have to return a phone call. We certainly won’t who went with him. have to knock on a single door. But we’ll get in there, and we Tey believe in the freedom to vote, and they believe in can be so self-righteous when we’re there because we’re now the freedom of expression. I can’t imagine that they believe MLAs” — even though not a single person actually, in the that in the middle of a legal voting process, a government freedom of a vote, got the opportunity to select you. Imagine should try and do a self-promotion to try and save a vote that. It’s incredible. they want to go a certain way. It’s unbelievable. Can we actually choose a system? What’s it going to be? It’s unbelievable to me because there are so many factors Twenty-nine diferent choices. As the member for Vancou- we don’t know. Tere are 29, actually, diferent factors — 29 ver–False Creek…. What the question here is…. Te gov- diferent factors that people do not know if they vote for the ernment has many diferent options to choose from, in pro- referendum. portional representation systems, but actually, they decided [7:45 p.m.] not to inform the voter about what they are. Tey’ve got this “It’s okay. We’re not telling you, and we don’t want you trust-me attitude. to know. We’re going to keep the amount of money people Tey think, in the middle of this, “Ah, just in case people can spend down so they can’t educate you. But that’s okay, in British Columbia actually get a chance, on minimal because — wink, wink, nod, nod — for some reason, afer budgets, to fgure out what this is about or have some ques- two more elections, you get to do it all over again. But you’re tions about it, let’s put a little ultra vires thing in here, in 5576 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 the middle of this process, where everybody else has to fol- publish this thing and celebrate and email and Twitter and low the information rules, everybody else has to follow the Facebook this bill to the people who are trying to make a funding rules, and we’ll use government and government’s decision about proportional representation. communication and tell people they have another option,” Why? I don’t know why. It’s not even in the style of the frankly, to try and change their vote. Attorney General of this province, whose history as a civil You don’t have the confdence in people to do the mail- libertarian was fairness. He and I may disagree on some in referendum to the point that you now decide you’re going things, but I think we believe in fairness. I can’t believe how to change it? And you’ll spend your money to promote the he could think this is fair — in the middle of a process, which change when everybody else is restricted as to what commu- is about to go to a vote, to add something to try and change nication they can do, what moneys they can raise and what people’s opinion. they can do. Pretty stunning when you think about it. I don’t know where this came from. It’s remarkably disap- [7:50 p.m.] pointing. People in every corner of this province today, who People are going to talk about the referendum in their have the chance to debate the merits of a system with limited comments relative to the second reading of this, because it education because of limited restrictions on what people can does talk about a future referendum. Even the Attorney Gen- and cannot do, are trying to come to a decision. eral of this province — who, surprisingly, is the one who I can tell you what the yes side will be doing. Tey will brought this legislation, given the fact that he comes from be changing every single one of their town halls, should this a civil liberties background, that he understands the legal bill pass to get in front of them. Where people are out there parameters around this sort of thing and has always, in my saying: “No, I don’t really support this….” “Oh no. It’s okay. mind, whether we agree or disagree on issues, thought about We just changed the rules. You get a do-over if you don’t like the fairness and the legal fairness within the systems of gov- it. So take the chance.” It’s incredible that you’d do this with- ernment and society — said that two of the options that are in an elections act. It’s restricting your citizens on what they available under the referendum are not currently in use any- can and cannot do and what they can and cannot spend and where. Yet they’re being asked to vote about it and not based what they can and cannot say. on anything where they can point to success or understand- [7:55 p.m.] ing or anything across the world. In an environment where MLAs are restricted as to what Now the same Attorney General, who I always thought they can and cannot do…. Tey need a separate organization believed in some level of fairness, although I didn’t think his if they actually want to have a counter-opinion, because consultation process was deep enough…. I don’t think he somebody will charge them or say it’s a cost to a campaign. went far enough, relative to actually engaging with British It’s remarkable. Tis comes from a government who claims Columbians. to be fair. Tere are a whole bunch of people, who actually aren’t Now, I think some of the things get misguided in this on line all the time to do on-line surveys, who have an place sometimes. People say: “Nobody is allowed to have an opinion about stuf that goes on, particularly people who opinion in this House.” I ran in 1996. Before I did, I asked, have made the ultimate sacrifce and served their country. of the leader of the political party I chose to join and run for, Tose that aren’t even here in Canada, people that are one question: “Am I allowed free votes?” We were, and we actually in theatres of war and peacekeeping missions have been. around the world, cannot get a ballot in this referendum. To this date, in 22 years, I can tell you that the only side Imagine that. Some guy in the Gulf on a ship, who’s of this Legislature, whether it be opposition or government, serving this country, who’s a British Columbian, cannot that ever allowed free votes in this place is my B.C. Liberal get a ballot. Tey’re the ones that are defending our demo- Party. Tey’ve allowed that. Whether it be in opposition or cracy, defending our country. in government, you had a free vote, and I’ve used it. Tere As we go through this choosing that we’re doing, it’s really are no free votes anywhere else. So don’t tell me that propor- about a number of things for me. I’d be happy to have a more tional representation is going to change this, because you’re fulsome debate in the public, to be able to educate my con- all not going to be able to change your style and understand stituents if I was allowed to. Te restrictions that were put how important that freedom is, to have a vote. on were deliberately put on to handcuf the people on both Te conversation about what parties look like and what sides of this debate from educating the public. You’re talking the Legislature looks like is important to this. We didn’t about a restriction on everybody around you except for you. bring in a piece of legislation afer people said: “You know, I I’m not going to put this on the Tird Party. Tis is a actually would like to see the maps. I’d kind of like to know government bill, a government bill that says, in the middle what the options look like. I’dreally like to kind of know how of a process where we said you could do certain things…. this vote breaks down by region, to kind of know that.” You could only communicate a certain way. You could only “No, we don’t have time to do that. It’s too much work; it spend a certain dollar. You had to register if you wished to can’t be done.” But we have time to go write a piece of legis- do anything. In the middle of that process, a government has lation, right in the middle of the writ, that for all intents and stepped up with a bill to play a game to sway the vote. It will purposes breaks B.C.’s Election Act. We will go out and pro- Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5577 mote this, with money, to everybody in B.C., on line, using some of the members in the north, it’d be the size of some government money to convince people to vote some way in European countries or larger. the middle of an electoral process that restricts every other Tey can’t tell us who the Premier would be or whether single person in the province of British Columbia. the Premier could be appointed from a list — a Premier that If that’s the case, why didn’t you do the work on the maps? could be appointed from a list and never have ever once Why didn’t you come out with a better explanation of the stood in front of the people and asked for a vote. Imagine systems? Why didn’t you put that information out there, that. Ten you wonder why people who have seen and know instead of having this fraud, this charade of a piece of legisla- the history of their families and the sacrifces they made to tion that says, “Oh, go vote for prop rep because in two elec- protect democracy and the peace and the freedom of our tions, you get another do-over,” right in the middle of bal- country, like myself, are frustrated by this legislation. lots being mailed out to British Columbians? It’s despicable, It breaks every fundamental that I grew up understanding. actually. A government, in a writ period on a referendum, bringing I know that people are going to get up and rail about this a piece of legislation to change the outcome of a vote by the and say, “What a great piece of legislation,” and they’re actu- citizens of British Columbia — afer they’ve already restric- ally going to spend most of the time talking about how great ted their ability to communicate, afer they’ve already prop rep is. Tey’re not going to get up and admit that this restricted their ability to do their jobs — comes with an ultra little thing is a fraud. vires piece of legislation to deliberately change the conversa- tion. It doesn’t say on the ballot that these three choices can [L. Reid in the chair.] be rethought about eight years from now. It didn’t say that in the legislation that put the referendum together. It didn’t say Tey’re not going to get up and understand the fact that that in the consultation process. None of that was included. they’re actually breaking the fundamentals of B.C.’s election I thought the world of my dad. I loved my father-in-law process. Tey’re not going to get up and admit that even as a friend. I’m proud of my son for serving this country. people in Elections B.C. are stunned by this legislation and I’m proud of his friends who served with him. My heart goes cannot for a minute fgure out why — in what was already out to those that sufer from post-traumatic stress because pretty much a designed, unfair process — they can decide to they believed in this country. Tis legislation at this time in go even further and propagate a fraud on the people of Brit- the middle of an electoral process lets them all down. PR ish Columbia. shouldn’t be manipulated by a government midway through. It’s incredible. It’s incredible to me, because somewhere in It’s a shame, it’s a travesty, and it is wrong. a back room, I guess, will be a formation of people that sit, under this legislation — political parties and MLAs chosen A. Weaver: Well, that certainly was half an hour of right- from political lists. eous indignation on display for us today. I had not planned Tere’s also a group that decided: “Hey, let’s go put this to start my speech with this quote, but I think I will, because into the conversation, because it might be enough to change it’s ftting afer the member from the Langley area just went people’s thinking about this. We don’t care if we’re in a writ on that diatribe. process, for all intents and purposes, because we shut down Tis is a quote from a video by Justin Greenwood, named the ability for British Columbians to spend money and com- the interim deputy leader of the B.C. Conservative Party. municate on this thing back in July. Back in July, we said you Tis is with reference to Bill 40, which is before us, the Elec- could only raise money, $1,200 at a time, from individual toral Reform Referendum 2018 Amendment Act, and which British Columbians.” is, in essence, adding a new, second referendum to elections We’re all playing by those rules, except the government. afer now, within 13 months, to validate, if proportional rep- Te email blasts that’ll go out on this thing will be so funny resentation passes, that British Columbians want to stay with to watch because they’re going to say: “Wow, we passed legis- the system. lation to make you comfortable so that you’ll vote for Tis is what Justin Greenwood said, and I think it’s apt and something.” Tat’s ultra vires. I can’t actually believe the ftting for me to read this into the record. On a video avail- Attorney General brought it forward, with his notion of fair- able on YouTube, he said this, on behalf of the B.C. Conser- ness. I can’t believe that they think it stands up to a challenge vative Party: in court, that in the middle of a writ period they can go do “As a party, we have chosen not to take a stance on the referendum something like this. at this time, other than to ensure our membership and fellow British [8:00 p.m.] Columbians have the information needed to make their choice. I felt Tat’s what they’re doing, and they’re doing it for only it necessary to make this video because of the vote ‘no’ side, which is mostly supported by” — he used the name; it’s the Leader of the Of- one reason. It’s because they don’t want to show us maps. fcial Opposition — “the B.C. Liberals by using fearmongering tactics Tey didn’t have time to do that, but they had time to laced with misleading statements in order to tell you how to vote. Tis write a piece of legislation to say: “We’ll do it again in is solely because if prop rep passes, their party will implode. It’s purely eight years.” Tey can’t tell us the sizes of the ridings. For for self-preservation purposes only. “Tose attributes and tactics are not the ones I would support in a 5578 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018

party leader, let alone someone who is assuming to be the next Premi- said that the people of British Columbia will decide that er of British Columbia. Indeed, the Leader of the Ofcial Opposition question, and we will provide a path to that decision point. I should be helping spread the information needed for British Colum- bians to make an educated vote on an electoral system that suits them have no problem with that.” best, a choice you can make by using your freedom and agency. Te member for Abbotsford-Mission said the following: [8:05 p.m.] “Our electoral system has been heavily scrutinized by our time in government. Te discussion about electoral reform will allow us to “Te Liberals have stated that the ballot is very confusing and open up that dialogue, and it’s been a source of discussion around the lacks direction. Luckily,” he says, “I’ve gathered an elite team of prob- province. Our government is addressing that. It’s something we make lem-solvers which consists of a crossword puzzle superstar, a word a top priority. search champion and a sudoku master to help crack the code of the “We are also looking,” he went on to say, “at electoral reform. Elec- confusing ballot.” toral reform, I know, is something that is of particular interest to our friends…. Terein, he went on to show quite clearly how easy it is for “We’re going to develop another referendum and develop a clear British Columbians to read the ballot. question, which refects the needs of British Columbia, but protecting I, frankly, am shocked at the language I’m hearing from key populations and ensuring that rural areas are treated fairly here members opposite. I’m shocked that they have so little in the assembly….” respect for the intelligence of British Columbians that they Precisely what government has done. feel they need to try to mislead, to fearmonger and to stand How about the member for Penticton? He says the follow- up and ensure that they vote the way the B.C. Liberals want ing: “We know that if there is a reform that takes place in them to vote, without actually trusting that British Columbi- the future on how people are able to govern out of this won- ans might actually be interested in learning. derful building…. Tere is a promise that has been put for- What’s also remarkable about what I’m hearing is…. If I ward for electoral reform no later than November 30, 2018. take you back to the throne speech of June 22, 2017, this I hope we work together” — I love those words — “through is what the B.C. Liberal throne speech said. It said the fol- that extensive consultation that should take place, to develop lowing: a clear question that British Columbians can understand….” “Te results that British Columbians delivered in the May election Sidebar. Do you want…? And this is part of the parody require cooperation. Your government is committed to working with in the interim B.C. Conservative deputy leader’s video. He all parties in the Legislature. shows the ballot. “Te question is, basically: do you want “Following referenda in 2005 and 2009, there remains a desire by proportional representation, or do you want to stay with many members in this place to revisit electoral reform. “With the confdence of this House, your government will enable a frst-past-the-post? Yes or no?” Pretty clear, if you ask me. third referendum on electoral reform. It will require extensive public [8:10 p.m.] consultation to develop a clear question and will ensure rural repres- Tis question, in this other referendum, Bill 40 — we entation in the Legislature is protected. haven’t seen the exact wording — will essentially be: do you “It is vital that the referendum refect the views of British Colum- bians, not just its political parties.” want to stay with the system we just went through, assuming that prop rep passes? Tese are pretty clear questions. Tis is precisely the process that government has gone Coming back to what the member for Penticton said, he through over the last many months in an unprecedented said: “A clear question that British Columbians could under- consultative process leading to, I believe, 91,000-some-odd stand and can see that it is 100 percent in its meaning and submissions — incredible consultation. What’s remarkable, depth and also that not only protects urban areas but also too, is that we hear the rhetoric emanating from members protects the rural areas of British Columbia. I think that’s opposite. Let me take you back a few months to what these really important, because sometimes rural B.C. is forgotten.” same members, two of whom have already spoken, said in I agree with the member for Penticton. In fact, that is being response to the throne speech. refected in the options that have been put forward. Here, for example, the member for Richmond-Steveston, Te member for Kamloops–South Tompson, who was who hasn’t spoken yet, said in response: “Our electoral sys- over the top with his enthusiasm — opposite — for this ref- tem has been heavily scrutinized in recent years. We held erendum today, rhetoric that’s screaming out of the windows referendums” — it’s grammatically incorrect; it should be and of the ramparts, said the following in the throne speech: “referenda” — “on electoral reform in 2005 and 2009 — “We are committed to enabling a third referendum with a both times of particular importance to me because I was clear question and absolute protection for rural representa- either a candidate or seeking re-election as a member of this tion.” Seemed okay at the time. assembly. Te discussion around electoral system is a key Te critic, the member for Vancouver-Langara, who spoke facet of our democracy, and renewing a healthy debate on frst in this debate, said: “For many, it’s important that we our system is important. Tat’s why we have committed to a conduct a third referendum on electoral reform to give Brit- third referendum on electoral reform.”Tat’s the member for ish Columbians an opportunity to consider, once again, what Richmond-Steveston arguing passionately for another refer- is the best electoral system for the province and its people. endum on electoral reform. Again, we listened, and we’ve acted.” Here’s what the member for Chilliwack-Kent said: “We On and on and on it went in the response to the B.C. Lib- Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5579 eral throne speech — quite frankly remarkable. You would the people of British Columbia want it to change. It’s very never have known it, given the vitriol that was thrown gov- simple. Do you want to change or not? If it changes, two elec- ernment’s way today. tions from now, there’ll be another referendum to say: “Do Again, coming back to the interim deputy leader of the you like what you saw? Shall we keep it?” B.C. Conservative Party, Justin Greenwood, he says it all. We go back to the New Zealand example. Te ballot here He says…. Here again it summarizes the reason why he felt in British Columbia is very similar to the ballot that was he needed to speak. He needed to speak out because he done in New Zealand when they went for proportional rep- felt that: “Te B.C. Liberals are using fearmongering tactics resentation. laced with misleading statements in order to tell you how to I can tell you, from somebody working in the Legislature vote, and this is solely because if prop rep passes, their party in a minority government, that it is hard working with will implode. It’s purely for self-preservation purposes only. another party. It is not easy at all when you come together Tose are not the attributes and the tactics that one would with very diferent backgrounds and ideas. But you get better want in a leader.” policy, better public policy, when you’re forced to collab- I’ve listened to the arguments. I’ve attended a debate with orate, forced to listen. Sometimes you have to give more the member for Richmond-Queensborough, a debate on than you want, and sometimes you get to take more than prop representation. I’ve listened to the no side. What sad- you thought you would get. But it’s about collaboration and dens me is that these debates, not the case of the member for cooperation. It can get testy at times. People can be frm in Richmond-Queensborough — he did a very fne presenta- their positions. tion — are not constrained by facts. Good public policy arises when politicians are forced to Even today we heard statements of truth that are nothing work together, and we’ve been demonstrating that here in more than conjecture, fearmongering about boundaries. I this Legislature for the last 18 months or so, much to the don’t know what the boundary is going to be for my riding chagrin of members opposite, who can’t fathom the fact that if there’s a frst-past-the-post election in 2021, because Elec- diferent political parties can actually work together. tions B.C. periodically reviews the boundaries. I found out Instead, they have to create some fearmongering approach that I had parts of Victoria in this election not too long that somehow the world as we know it is going to end and before this past election. It happens all the time that we look evoking the raiding of Normandy, for heaven’s sake. I mean, at electoral boundaries. this is just so ofensive — evoking the troops in Normandy Tey talk about rural B.C. and “can’t draw maps.” Well, as somehow being afronted. One member opposite talked in fact, if they actually read the document, you would see about how the people who made the greatest sacrifce that it’s quite clearly outlined about how ridings would likely wouldn’t be able to vote. Of course they can’t vote. Tey’re double in size. You basically bring two neighbouring ridings not here today. Tey made the sacrifce. Te rhetoric that together in most of the cases, with the exception of the rural- was coming was just outrageous. urban one, where you would have slightly diferent changes. Tis is really about a referendum, and do we trust the It’s very clearly described what would happen there. people of British Columbia, as we have twice before in two It’s also very clearly outlined as to how a process would votes on the single transferable vote? Do we trust them to go forward to determine open versus closed lists. My own have enough information? Do we trust them to be able to preference is open list. Open list is my preference. Tey, the determine what’s in their best interests? Te B.C. Liberals members opposite, seem to suggest that somehow it’s pre- don’t. Tey don’t trust British Columbians to actually think decided that it must be closed list, that somehow there’s party for themselves. It’s not the B.C. Liberal way. Te B.C. Liberal elite that are going to be put in to become Premier without way is: “We’ll tell you because we know best. Not only that. ever being elected. It’s a small section of us — the elite in the party.” Even the In the world, there are — I’m not counting Myanmar and backbenchers: “We’ll tell you the way it is, and it shall be that Venezuela — only a couple of examples of western democra- way.” Tis is what we’re seeing modelled here in the objec- cies that still retain frst-past-the-post: the United States and tions of the members opposite to this referendum. Canada. Even in Great Britain, Scotland is on a form of pro- Remarkable. Even if they didn’t like proportional repres- portional representation, whereas England is not. New Zeal- entation, why would they not support this? Tis is giving and. Australia, in the Senate, and it has a preferential ballot- British Columbians a way out if they don’t like it. Even if you ing system in the House. Virtually every single democracy in don’t…. Again, I understand that there are 17 years of nefar- the world has a got a form of proportional representation. ious kinds of activities and backroom deals and conniving. [8:15 p.m.] For them, everything that’s done has to have a Machiavel- Heck, the latest result in Bavaria showed a doubling of lian outcome. I recognize they think that this is some kind support of the Green Party there, a surge of support in the of Machiavellian approach to actually infuence things. How Green Party in Bavaria, a state within Germany that has about: it’s actually listening to what people have said? People proportional representation. Prince Edward Island went have actually said they wanted a chance to have an election. through the referendum. It passed. Tey decided not to do it. Have they ever thought that maybe government is listen- B.C. has the potential here of being a leader in Canada if ing to people? I know that the B.C. Liberals had a difcult 5580 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 time listening to people, but here we have a government from the Victoria region, and prior to that, there was listening to people, bringing in legislation that says: “You nobody in government in the capital regional district. know what? If you do vote for this system and you don’t like Tat’s wrong. Liberals in the capital regional district need it, we will give you a way out two years from now.” representation. Tey need representation in this Legis- I’ve heard so many examples of misinformation being put lature, but they don’t have it. forward on this referendum. For example, I’ve heard people Again, it comes back to what was so succinctly pointed say that somehow party elites will choose who’s coming in. out by Mr. Greenwood, the B.C. Conservative Party inter- Well, let me tell you right now, if you were in a number of im deputy leader, who essentially says: “Te fear is really ridings in British Columbia where you could essentially run an internal fear that the B.C. Liberals know that their anybody from a particular party and you know they will get loosey-goosey coalition of conservatives and liberals is elected, the person who actually gets appointed is from the going to fall apart.” party. It is the party right now that already determines which To be honest, there are hardly any Liberals lef, actually, members represent that party in certain ridings. In some rid- over on that side, but that’s okay because they’ve been…. I ings, getting the actual nomination from the party is pretty know there’s one over there. I know there’s one. much a shoo-in to being elected. So right now…. Frankly, we just have to go back to the referendum when Interjection. the Premier at the time lost her seat in Vancouver–Point Grey and was parachuted into Kelowna West, where she was A. Weaver: I do have a lot of time for that one federal Lib- able to get a seat. Tis is already happening in terms of the eral over there. But there’s not many lef in that party. claims that the members opposite are making. Tis would be healthy for democracy. It would be healthy [8:20 p.m.] for there to be a party that actually represented the views, Te other things that they have said are things like: “Well, the prevailing views, of people in the Fraser Valley, front and you’ll lose local representation.” Te irony — to hear that centre when issues come up that they feel are not being dealt coming from the members opposite about losing local rep- with. It would be healthy for people to feel like their views in resentation. How do the people in the Okanagan feel right the Cariboo-Chilcotin and elsewhere were actually repres- now, knowing that there is not a single MLA sitting on the ented in a manner that puts…. Not having to be difused by government side? Not very good about that, I can tell you. competing interests, by certain ridings here and certain rid- How do you think the people of the Okanagan, who didn’t ings there, but are actually able to speak out passionately for agree with government policy, felt — not ever having some- these issues in both opposition and in government. body sitting on the opposition side for the previous 17 years? If you’re an opposition MLA, you can speak out directly. If Not very happy. you’re in government, you can’t speak out directly. It’s much While some of these Liberal MLAs might think that they more difcult. represent all people, I can tell you, as an MLA serving the riding of Oak Bay–Gordon Head, that I was inundated from Interjections. emails, from constituents in Liberal ridings, because their MLAs would not take on the issues because they contra- A. Weaver: I like the chippery over there. vened the political party of the day’s policy. I understand that the Liberals…. Tis isn’t about access to health care systems. You know, maybe you have a person who needs help accessing. All con- Interjection. stituency ofces work in that regard. Tis is about…. Per- haps there’s an overpass in a region where there’s a concern A. Weaver: It’s 8:30, true. Whose idea was this to go till for a natural ecosystem, and the MLA for the area is not will- nine o’clock? ing to actually entertain meetings with concerned citizens. Coming back to the point, much of the information that Tey come to us. has been put forward, I fear, is actually doing the no side If, in these regions, you had representation from both an actual great disservice. I have talked to many people, and opposition and government, you’d actually get better local people feel very suspicious as to information that they can representation. Te Okanagan. Pick nine MLAs who are quickly check today themselves on the Internet to be factu- serving in the Okanagan right now. You probably would ally incorrect. have had…. Of those nine, fve of them would have been When factually incorrect information is put forward, it B.C. Liberal. Tree of them would have been B.C. NDP, and does a disservice — talks about these splinter parties some- one of them would have been B.C. Green. Te Okanagan how rising out of nowhere when you need to have 5 percent would be served by members in opposition, members in the of the vote in order to actually get representation. Again, a Green and also members in the government. Healthy for misrepresentation that is being put there. democracy. People have talked about the fact that there would be Vancouver Island right now has but one representative party lists — that all these people will just be appointed from in Parksville-Qualicum. Tere is nobody in opposition backroom deals. Misrepresentation there. Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5581

People talk about loss of local representation. Again, mis- want to collaborate with any other party. Tey just want all representation there, because you have the constituents. the power. People somehow think that this is unique in the world when, Negotiation is not something that they like. Compromise again, what’s diferent is actually the fact that in British is not a word that they understand. Listening is not Columbia we are very much unlike the rest of the world something that they like to do either, unless, of course, it’s where forms of proportional representation exist. a big corporate donor or the top 1 percent of the province. [8:25 p.m.] Ten the ears are wide open, and they’re listening. With that, I really, truly cannot understand why members But you know what? We fxed that issue by banning cor- opposite…. I feel they have lost their moral compass. Why porate and union donations. Now we have the opportunity they would not vote in support of a bill that actually gives to fx the issue of the voting system that does not work for British Columbians a choice to go back to the system if they the majority of British Columbians. don’t like proportional representation and it passed is really [8:30 p.m.] mind-boggling to me. I wish I could understand it. I look We have that opportunity in a referendum coming up and forward to some more of the commentary coming our way a very simple concept where if 25 percent of the people vote in the debates of this bill. for a party, they get 25 percent of the representation.

R. Glumac: Let’s have a conversation about voting. In the Interjection. last election, we formed a minority government where two parties, the NDP and the Greens, had the opportunity to R. Glumac: Exactly. Tat’s very fair because that is pro- work together on issues where we have common ground. portionally representative of what the province and what the Together the NDP and the Greens received 57 percent of the people of the province want. popular vote. Te majority of the people in British Columbia You only need to look at where this has happened across voted for their government. Tat seems to make sense. Tat’s the world. Look at the data, the statistics on this. Have a look a reasonable thing, I think, in a democracy, where the major- at it. We know that people have a greater sense of satisfaction ity of people actually voted for their government, but it’s in democracies where proportional representation is the vot- actually rare in our frst-past-the-post system. ing system. When you look back to when the election happened, You look at indicators, such as the world governance Premier Christy Clark and the B.C. Liberals tried desperately indicator, the Transparency International corruption index, to hold on to power even though they only had 40 percent and proportional representation democracies outperformed of the popular vote. I don’t know if you remember that, but frst-past-the-post democracies in 16 of the 17 measures of it dragged on for months and months as we tried to get in sound government, including areas like quality and inde- to become the government that represents the majority of pendence of public service, quality of policy-making, rule of the people in the province. Tey had 40 percent of the vote, law, control of corruption. and they did everything they could. Tey even changed their Tere’s another beneft to proportional representation sys- throne speech to refect everything that we had in our plat- tems. Tey actually result in a greater diversity among elec- form in a desperate attempt to hold on to power. ted representatives. In PR systems, there are 8 percent more Tis is not an unnatural occurrence, because this is what women elected. the B.C. Liberals have gotten used to. Tey’ve gotten used You can look at one example of a single country that to having all the power without the majority support of the uses two diferent systems, Australia. Tey use a proportion- people of this province. In 2013, they received 44 percent al representation system in the Senate and more of a frst- of the popular vote, and they got 100 percent of the power. past-the-post system for the House, and two and a half times In 2009, they received 46 percent of the popular vote and more women were elected to the Senate than to the House. 100 percent of the power. In 2005, they received 46 percent, Canada, U.S., U.K., — these are all frst-past-the- again, of the popular vote and 100 percent of the power. post countries. None of these countries have more than 30 In fact, there was only one election in the last 100 years percent of their representatives being women. In New Zeal- where one party received more than 50 percent of the pop- and, Germany, Sweden, , that all use proportional ular vote and became government. Tink about this for a representation, all have more than 30 percent being women. second. In nearly every election in British Columbia, the In Sweden, it’s 45 percent women. majority of people in this province did not vote for the Another beneft of the proportional representation system government. It seems to me there could be a better way of is it actually increases voter turnout. You look at the data. doing things. You look at the statistics. In PR democracies, the average Te B.C. Liberals are fghting to keep the current system voter turnout is 7½ percent higher, and the voter turnout because they want to have all the power. Tey don’t care among youth is 12 percent higher. Certainly, we want to see if the majority of people vote for other parties. Tey just more engagement in our democracies. want the power. Tey don’t want to cooperate. Tey don’t I hear lots of mocking coming from the opposition when we hear about more people voting. Apparently, that’s 5582 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 15, 2018 not something that they’re in favour of, but I think it’s a Just like how that happened in Quebec recently with the good thing. Coalition Avenir Québec, which received only 37 percent Another advantage is that in proportional representation of the vote and got 100 percent of the power, also an anti- — and here’s a really important thing — there’s consistency immigration party. between elections. When you have a frst-past-the-post sys- Tat’s not what happened in Denmark. Tat didn’t happen tem, there tends to be a wide swing from one philosophy to because they have proportional representation. In Denmark, another philosophy. One government can undo everything a coalition government was formed, and the anti-immigra- that the previous government did. Tat’s not efective gov- tion Danish People’s Party, despite getting the second most ernment. Tat’s exactly what Stephen Harper did in dismant- votes, did not become a formal part of the ruling govern- ling so much of the environmental protections that were in ment. Tat’s what proportional representation does. place under the previous government. Now, when we look at and when we think about the most Consistency between elections, interestingly, also leads to extreme cases of leadership in the world — I mean, maybe stronger economies. Countries that have proportional rep- someone who, you know, has fans, perhaps, in the oppos- resentation, on average, have a 0.05 percent of GDP surplus, ition — the person that comes to my mind as an extreme and frst-past-the-post countries have a 2.9 percent defcit. leader is actually Donald Trump. Interestingly, Donald In fact, nine of the ten top economic performers in the Trump was elected with less votes than his opponent — OECD with the highest GDP per capita use — do you know 46.1 percent of the popular vote versus 48.2 percent for his what it is? — proportional representation. Tat’s right. Inter- opponent, Hillary Clinton. Nearly three million more people estingly, actually, even corporate taxes are lower in countries voted for Hillary than Donald Trump. Tis is a fundamental that have proportional representation, which I’m sure the example of the failure of a frst-past-the-post type of system. opposition would be very excited about. Tere are other examples that have been cited many Human health indicators are higher. Life expectancy is 12 times closer to home, with our esteemed colleague in years more in proportional representation countries. Infant Ontario, Doug Ford. Again, the opposition a big fan. Doug mortality is 75 percent less. Ford is leading the government of Ontario with 100 per- [8:35 p.m.] cent of the power afer only receiving 40.5 percent of the So what exactly is the downside that we’re looking at here? vote. And now Doug Ford is dismantling the work of the We know that the opposition wants to keep this current sys- previous government. tem, because it gives them power when they don’t deserve He’s cancelling the carbon cap-and-trade system unilater- it, when they don’t have representation, don’t have the man- ally, even though the majority of the people in the province date of the majority of people in the province. Our govern- voted for diferent parties. He’s cancelling the Green Ontario ment has the mandate, in cooperation with the Greens, of fund, which paid Ontarians to make energy-efciency the majority of people in the province. updates in their homes and businesses. He’s cancelling Now, there are criticisms that some may have of propor- Ontario’s basic income pilot unilaterally. tional representation — that it might result in more elec- He’s cancelling labour reforms that would guarantee that tions, more unstable governments. Tat’s actually not the part-time workers would receive the same pay as full-time case when you look, again, at the data, which the B.C. Liber- workers unilaterally. He’s cancelling minimum wage in- als are not fond of. creases unilaterally. He’s repealing updates to the province’s Between 1945 and 1998, in proportional representation sex-education curriculum, reverting back to an outdated democracies, there was an average of 16 elections in that 1998 curriculum, unilaterally. time period, compared to 16.7 in frst-past-the-post. So it’s He’s announcing hiring freezes across the public service exactly about statistically equal. unilaterally. And he’s using the notwithstanding clause to Tere’s also concern around fringe parties that may crop circumvent the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in order up under a system like this. Fringe parties…. When we talk to reduce the city councillors from 47 down to 25 about fringe parties, we’re talking about parties that have less unilaterally. than 1 percent of the vote, and we have a threshold of 5 [8:40 p.m.] percent in place in this legislation that we’re amending. You He’s doing all of this despite the fact that the province, won’t get any seats in the Legislature until you have 5 percent the people of the province of Ontario, voted in majority for of the vote. parties other than his party, and that can happen here. Let’s take a look at a specifc case to demonstrate this and All the good work that we’re doing right now could be how this works. In Denmark, in a recent election, there’s undone if we stick with the frst-past-the-post system. a party called the Danish People’s Party. It’s considered an Maybe the opposition is just waiting for the opportunity to anti-immigration party. Interestingly, this party is the second cut back funding on education again, because that’s what most popular party in Denmark. Under a frst-past-the-post they did when they were in government. Maybe they’re wait- system, it’s quite possible that this party could’ve formed ing for the opportunity to shut down schools again and to government and had 100 percent of the power — 100 per- force school districts to sell valuable land. cent of the power. Tat could have happened. Maybe they’d like to defund the afordable child care plan Monday, October 15, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5583 that we’re putting in place. Maybe they want to put tolls back that anybody can understand what you’ve put on the table? on the bridge. I think that one’s probably going to happen. How do you really believe that? Tere is no way to get out Maybe they want to put regressive taxes like MSP premiums and explain it to people. You have restricted everybody’s back in place. Maybe they want to erase the poverty reduc- hands by getting out and telling people what is proposed. tion strategy that we’re putting in place right now, because People don’t know what’s proposed. Tey are trying to fgure they certainly didn’t like that when they were in power. this out themselves. Maybe they want to remove the Human Rights Commission. Maybe they want to scrap our climate change policy. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Maybe they want to scrap improvements to the environ- mental assessment process. Maybe they want to bring back Tere have been two referendums already on this partic- the grizzly bear hunt. Maybe they want to reduce disability ular topic, and yes, we talked about maybe another one. But rate increases. I don’t know what they want to do, but they in those two referendums, there were 60 percent of the pop- could do it with 100 percent power without the majority ulation that had to get out and vote. Tat is democracy. Tis support of the voters of this province under a frst-past- is absolutely, in my opinion…. the-post system. I can tell you one thing I’m pretty sure they would like to Interjections. do, and that’s bring back corporate donations, because their donations have been drying up. For the frst half of 2018, D. Barnett: Pardon me? B.C. Liberals have raised only 59 percent of what the B.C. NDP have raised with personal donations. Tis isn’t a sur- Hon. D. Donaldson: You didn’t use that on the HST. prise, because the B.C. Liberals were a party that represented the top 1 percent of income earners, the party with the most D. Barnett: We’re not talking about HST. We’re talking money, with the most representation of people with the most about democracy and the right to vote and the right to get money and a lot of money that they wanted to throw around. into this House. Tat situation they no longer have, because we’ve taken away You talk about two parties. My colleague over here just their corporate donations. mentioned how two parties working together is democracy. We could go back to that with less than 50 percent of the Only if the agenda is those two parties’. It’s got nothing to do popular vote. Tat is exactly what the opposition would like. with the wishes of a constituency. Te idea of a coalition government that requires coopera- tion, that requires respect and that requires listening to the Interjection. people of this province is not something they can support. What do we have to lose? Let’s give it a try. Te legislation D. Barnett: Come to my constituency and argue with me that we have here is an opportunity to change our voting if you wish. I have…. system for the better. If proportional representation passes, we will have another referendum in two elections to confrm Interjection. that it actually is as great as I’m saying that it is here, based on all of the data that I’ve been using and quoting from. We D. Barnett: Excuse me. I have the foor. have that opportunity to validate that it is going to be better Tis is what we call democracy. Tis is what we call for the people of this province. respect. Tis is what we call working together. Tis is not We have nothing to fear. We have an opportunity to prove what it is meant to be in this House. that this is actually going to be a better voting system. And Noting the time, I will reserve my place and ask for ad- we’ve shown that we can do this. We can have a minority journment of the debate. government with support from 57 percent of the voters, two parties working together collaboratively. Let’s trust that we D. Barnett moved adjournment of debate. will all be better represented under a system in which the majority of the population is represented in government. Motion approved.

D. Barnett: I’ve sat and listened for the last I don’t know Hon. M. Farnworth moved adjournment of the House. how many hours to the rhetoric in this House from this side of the House talking about democracy. What is democracy? Motion approved. [8:45 p.m.] Democracy is when people make decisions and send Mr. Speaker: Tis House stands adjourned until 10 a.m. people to this House by vote. In my riding, people elected tomorrow morning. me. Tey didn’t elect somebody for you to appoint. Tey elected me. In the riding over here, this person was elected. Te House adjourned at 8:47 p.m. Tat is democracy. How in the world do you really believe

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