~~--, . ... •.' "{ . '"' .. 1566 Assent to Bills. (ASSEMBLY. J ;1.tion Bill ·i.~ ~zzembl~.~·~ Mr. SPEAKER': Is" it the pleasure of the 3Legizlatibe House that the petition be read 1 · Wednesday, 18 lifay, 1887. HON. MEMBERS : N 0 ! Mr. J. P. ABBOTT: I remember an Assent to Bi11s-The Chinese Commissioners-Cremation occasion when hon. members objected to a Bill-Imperial Institute-City of Goulburn Gas and Calm Company's Act Amendment Bill-Resignation petition being read, and Mr. Speaker Bar of the Attorney-General (New Judge of the Supreme ton ruled that it could be read if the hoii. Court)-Patents Act Amendment Bill-Newington member who presented it demanded that Asylum - Essex-street Alignment Bill -Roads and Bridges in the Electorate of the Richmond-Building, it should be read, and that petition was 'Labour, and Materi'11 Lien Bill-C:1Se of Mrs. Butter read. ley-Mittagong Coal-mining Company's Railway Act Mr. SPEAKER : My recollection of the Amendment Bill-Arrangement of Business-Ad ruling to which the hon. member refers is journment (Government Asylums Inquiry-Resigna tion of the Attorney-Gencml)-Consolidnted Revenue that it was precisely the opposite to what Fund Bill (No. 3)-Supply-Adjournment (Bulli Col the hon. member says it was. If the hon. liery Commission-Customs Duties Bill-Sydney Cor member will refer to the rulincr I think poration Act Amendment Bill - Return of Land . fi b> Revenuc·-·Bridge at Narrancler<1-Acljournment (Min h e will 'nd that I am right. isterial Statement). Sir ~ENRY PARK~s: .rn any case I hope there will be no obJectwn to the petition Mr. SPEAKER took the clmir. being read. Mr. GARVAN : It is within the right .ASSENT TO BILLS. of an hon. member to ,read a petition Royal assent to the following bills re himself, and it is simply for the conveni ported:- ence of hon. members that petitions are Crisp's Enabling Bill. read by the clerk. Conditional Purchases and Leases Vali Sir HENRY PARKES : If the hon. mem dation Bill. ber will refer to the standing orders he Supreme Court (Sixth Judge) Bill. will see that he is wrong ! .
THE CHINESE COM~USSIONERS. Mr. SPEAKER : The practice of the . Mr. vV ALKER asked the COLONIAL ~~use of Commons is not to allow a pe SECRETARY (witho1Lt notice),-Has he tition or any other document to be read taken any steps whatever to satisfy him except with the consent of the House. It self that the Chinese Commissioner:; now is pointed out by one of the authorities on on a visit to this colony are duly author the subject-May, I think-that if it ised to act as such by the Emperor of were allowable on the request of one hon. China i .If so, what steps 7 If not, why member to have petitions and documents has not the poll-tax been imposed 1 read, very lengthy documents might be Sir HENRY PARKES answered, read to the confusion or prevention of other ! became aware of the intended visit of business. I am quite satisfied that the the gentlemen whom we call the Chinese custom in this· House has not always been the same. Some speakers have put the Commissi~n~rs-.who, I have no doubt, are comnuss10ners- duly authorised by the question to the House whether a petition proper authorities in China-by a des· should be read, and others have simply patch from the Governor of Singapore or directed the clerk to read it. Hong Kong to bis Excellency the Governor Mr. DIBBS: I have a clear recollection of this colony, informing him of the in of what took place on the occasion re tended arrival here of the commissioners. ferred to by the hon. member for Went I consider that sufficient authority .for me. worth, and I think that the hon. member's statement is correct. I thoucrht at the With regard to the poll-tax, the Chinese . I o Commissioners are exempt by law from tile ~ime t mt Mr. Spea~er Barton's ruling was imposition of the poll-tax. mcorrect, and I thmk so still. It stands to reason that if lengthy documents were CREMATION BILL. to be read at the request of any hon. mem . l\Ir. J. P. AB~OTT presented a peti ber, a great deal of very valuable time tion from 1\fr. David Buchanan in favour might be wasted. I think that the will of the Cremation Bill, and asked that it of the House ought to be taken before any might be read, document is read.· .•·... ., , z.,,,,,,.;.l.,~1• [18 MAY, 1887.] Tl~ AU0 Mr. SPEAKER: Is it tl:ie pleasure of the <~Mr. GARVAN: Hon. members whO House that the petition be read 1 exC'laim " Oh, oh ! " do not understand An HoN. MElIBER: I object ! what the rights of Parliament are. The IMPERIAL INSTITUTE. House is entitled to the fullP,st informa- Mr. -WISE asked the COLONIAL SECRE- tion with reference to any important ap- pointment, or the resignation of a minister. TARY (without notice),-Is the colony com- I am sure that no one will admit that mitted to making any contribution to the more readily than the present Premier Imperial Institute i If not, will an op- will. I should like to know further whether portunity be given to this House of con- it is in contemplation-whether it is un sidering whether any and what amount derstood or agreed that the hon. and learned should be given before the credit of the member for Newtown is to be appointed to colony is pledged to making any contribu- any other office i tion 1 Sir H.ENRY PARKES : I readily Sir HENRY PARKES answered,-My admit that Parliament has the fullest reply to the first question is, no ; and to right to information on a matter of this the second, that I shall not think of kind, and hon. gentlemen will give me making any contribution to this object credit, I trust, in that I lost no .time in unless I have the sanction of Parliament. informing them of what had occurred. In making the announcement that the hon. CITY OF GOULBURN GAS AND COKE COMPANY'S ACT AMENDMENT ·BILL. member for Newtown had resigned the Report of select committee presented. office of Attorney-General, I consider that I did all that my duty required me to RESIGNATION OF THE ATTORNEY-. do ; but I thought it would be conve GENERAL. nient if I added the explanation as to who XEW JUDGE OF THE SUPRE)IE COURT. would be appointed to the position of Sir HENRY PARKES: I desire to sixth judge of the Supreme Court. Hon. inform the Honse that this morning I re gentlemen will see that there was no ceived a letter from the hon. and learned particular obligation at all cast upon member. for Newtown, resigning the office me to give that information. I gave it of Attorney-General. I may state in con simply because I think the House would nection with this suqject for the informa like to know, and for no other reason. tion of the House, that the new judge of ·with regard to the reason for the retire the Supreme Court has accepted the ap ment of the hon. member for Newtown, pointment, and will be formally appointed I am bound to say that the hon. and to-morrow morning. The new judge will learned member thought that holding the be Mr. Matthew Henry Stephen. office of Attor1~ey-General gave him some Mr. GARVAN: Referring to the in kind of claim to the position of judge. I timation conveyed to the House by the think the time has come when it ought to Premier that the Attorney-General has be placed on record in some emphatic resigned, and that this was consequent on manner that the mere holding of that high the fact that Mr. M. H. Stephen had been office gives no such claim whatever. I appointed a judge -- cannot see the matter in the same light in Sir HENRY PARK ES : I did not say that ! which Mr. Foster saw it. Those who Mr. GARVAN: Probably the hon. know me and are disposed to do any kind member misunderstands me. What I of justice to my character, know that I am mean is that the hon. gentleman stated unwilling to increase the expenditure of that two things occurred in sequence. I any branch of the civil service. I at all think it is only fair to the House that the times look with jealousy upon increasing hon. gentleman should state whether there the expenditure of ~he Supreme Court; is any connection, as far as he knows, be but I became in this instance convinced, .tween the appointment of Mr. M. H. after the best inquiry I could make, that Stephen as judge and. the resignation of it was necessary in the public interest to the Attorney-General, and also if there appoint a sixth judge. That being so, it has been any correspondence with refer appeared to me-and my colleagues, I am ence to it 1 glad to say, took the same view-that, HoN. MElIBERS: Oh, oh! having admitted the necessity for addi- 1'~~'. -~:':- .? ,.• • • ~ 1568 Patents Act A:rnenclrnent Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] .Arrang,ement,.,.., oj Business. tional assistance on the bench of the.Sh ( 1.) The total amount voted by Parliament preme Court, it was our duty, before all for roads and bridges in the electorate of the Richmond for the years 1885 and 1886. othee considerations whatever, to appoint (2.) The total amount actually expended on the best judge we could, and in exercising 31st December of same years. that duty we have appointed a gentleman (3.) The total land revenue from all sources who, I believe, with all the consideration received from said electoral district during 1885 I can give to the subject, will receive the and 1886. confidence of both· branches of the profes BUILDING, LABOUR, AND MATERIAL sion and of the country. If my late hon. LIEN BILL. colleague could not see the nmtter in the Resolved (motion by .M:r. CARRUTHERS): same light as· I did, I regret it very much; That this House will, on Friday, the 27th clay but the loss of his services, much as I of May, 1887, i·esolve itself into 3: Committe~ of regret it, 01· even a greater injury to the the whole to consider the expediency of brmg ing in a bill to secnre to mechanics and others Government, would not deter me from i)ayment for their labour and materials in erect making the best appointment I could ing buildings. make in such a serious matter as that. Having explained thus much, I think I CASE OF MRS. BUTTERLEY. ·have done all that Parliament could desire. Ordered (on motion by M.r. HURLEY, for PATENTS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.· Mr. ScrrEY) : That there be laid upon the table of this Bill presented by Mr. Clarke, and read House, copies of all papers, petitions, &c., in the the first time. cn,sc of l\frs. Butterley, whose son was killed oil NE\VINGTON ASYLUM. the railway at Blayney about two years ago. 1\fr. DIBBS asked the COLONIAL SECRE l\UTTAGONG COAL-MINING COMPANY'S TARY (withoiit notice),--vVhether he was RAILWAY ACT AMENDMENT BILL. prepared to lay on the table the sample Bill referred to select committee. dinner, or "mass of animal matter," as • the .Colonial Secretary described it, which ARRANGEMENT OF BUSINESS. was referred to on the previous day 1 Order of the day No. 5, having refer Sir HENRY PARKES answered,-I ence to the proposf'd railway from Nyngan will lay the "matter" to which the hon. mem to Cobar, having been called on by Mr. ber refers on the t11,ble of the House for -Speaker,· the information of the hon. gentleman and .M:r. CAl\IERON said: With reference hon. members, just as he left it in the to this· order of the day, as it appears on Colonial Secretary's Office, at my own time, the paper, it would be well for the House which shall be within a very few days. I to understand its present positio~1 in refer must make certain inquiries, and I will ence to notices of motion on the paper appeal to the hon. member, unless he de for Tuesdays when they are intercepted I~ sires to embarrass me in the discharge of by the adjournment at 7 o'clock. Last my duty, not at. this time to say anything night this motion was proposed by the more on the subject. hon. member for The Upper Hunter, Mr. Drnns: 1 am bound to bring infor iVIr. 1\foElhone, and a debate ensued. mation before the Government! Several hon. gen~lemen spoke to me, and Sir HENRY PARKES ~ I can assure asked me in what position this motion the hon. member, in good faith, that I would stand ; and I think you will recol believe I am doing everytl1ing lie can re lect., sir, that I went to you and spoke quire; and this particular article shall be to you on the subject, and you gave me to laid on the table when I am in a position understand that it was in the position of to lay it on the table in the way I think I a lapsed motion, and would appear as a ought to do. notice of motion at the foot of the ordinary ESSEX-STREET ALIGNMENT BILL. noti::es of motion for the day. It now Bill read the third time. appears on the paper, not as a motion at ROADS AND BRIDGES IN THE ELEC all, but as an order of the day, the differ TORATE OF THE RICHMOND. ence being this : tl~at on no Tuesday when Orclerecl (on motion by .M:r. CROUCH): this House sits during thC\ present session That there be Iaid~p6i1 the table of this can this order of the day be discussed House a return showing : until all other notices of motion have been rSir Henry Parkes. • • A rmngement oj.•B~siness. [18 :M:u, 1887.] A~·1·angernent of Business. 1569 disposed of. Had it appeared~ -· as a notice placed in this position, that he will have of motion on the paper, hon. gentlemen an opportunity of•placing it on the paper will see that it would have come after for some Tuesday, when he will have a motion No. 17; and it would have been fair opportunity of getting the matter competent for the hon. gentleman in fairly discussed. I call attention to the charge of the motion to ba\·e post subject because I think a mistake bas poned it until another time when he could been made, and a mistake which carries fairly have a chance of having it decided; with it an injustice to the hon. gentleman_. and as a rnattr.r of fact, while he had I refer to, and perhaps it will be as well~ spoken in moving the motion, and some if we have the position thoroughly defined. other l10n. gentlemen had taken part in :M:r. SPEAKER : I cannot see that the the debate, he would have maintained his hon. member who mover] the resolution right to reply. As it stands at the pre will be in any worse position through the sent morr:ent as an order of the day, there motion being placed on the paper as it is, is no chance of its being reached at all than if the motion had been placed at the except upon a Friday, when he can claim bottom of the notices of motion. The hon. no right of reply whatever. To show that member for Kiama seems to think that I am not very far wrong, I will quote the because it has become an order of the clay, following report which appears in one of the hon. member who moved the resolu the daily papers of this morning:- tion will not have the right of reply. I A novel point was referred to the Speaker in would point out to him that it simply the Assembly yesterday with regard to the new stands in the position of an adjourned de sessional order that Government business should bate, and if it is placed by the hon. mem be taken after 7 o'clock on Tuesdays. At this hour, which is the usual time for adjournment 'ber for some following Friday, that will for tea, the debate on the motion of Mr. not take away from him his right of reply • i.VlcElhone, in regard to the Nyngan to Cobar whenever the time arrives. I would also raihrny, was procee ~Ir. LYNE : As the motion now ap Mr. DIBBS : The hon. gentleman used pears as an order of the day, and an ad words to that effect. He threw a doubt journed debate, I ·would like to know on the boncijides of the dinner, and I hav_e whether the hon. member for Bourke, Mr. taken the trouble to obtain evidence \Vaddell, who was speaking at the time which ·r will hand over to him presently when the hour of adjournment arrived, to show that it was obtained in a certain will have the right to continue his remarks way, and brought to me in this House, when the subject again comes up for de ·about the month of J nly last, as the most bate~ He did not move the adjournment conclusive testimony which could be offered of the debate as suggested to him, but he that the diet of these unfortunate old people allowed the matter to drop. He stated was not fit to sustain life. Listen to the that he had some papers to refer to, and following letter which I have rec·eived from the proposed railway would be in his elec Lady Martin:- torate. I understood when he sat down " Clarens," Potts Point. that he would have the right to continue Dear l\fr. Dibbs,-Can it be possible that the dinner alluded to in the House last night could his remarks when the debate was resumed. have been the mess I brought to you from New Mr. SPEAKER : I stated last night that ington months ago ? If so, I can assure you the hon. member for Bourke would not that I took it with my own hands from one of the inmates, having seen it served out as a be held to have concluded his remarks, dinner ! And the worst part of the affair was, but that he would be at liberty to resume that I knew she would get nothing to replace the debate. it. Believe me, Sincerely yours, ADJOURN)1ENT. !SABELLA MARTIX. GOYERXlllEXT ASYLU~IS IXQUIRY-RESIGXATIOX Mrs. Pottie, a well-known charitable lady OF THE ATTORXEY·GEXERAL. of Sydney, who has given an immense l\Ir. DIBBS : I am sure that the House amount of her attention to this particular will bear with me for a few minutes while asylum, has written to me in these words : I refer again to the question of the Go "Eurimbl.'t," Botany. vernment asylums. It is a matter of very Dear Mr. Dibbs,-I was present with Lady great importance, and no hon. member can :Martin in the hospital of Newington Asylum about July, last year, and saw a dinner served say that it is not of equal importance to out to the patients which we considered unfit any question which has been discussed in for food. We took a sample dinner from one of this Parliament. We have to uphold our the patients, and delivered it to you at the name as a 'Christian community. We Assembly that same evening. The dinner was taken out of the tin dish of one of the patients. should do our utmost to prevent ourselves Yours truly, from appearing in the eyes of the world as ELIZA POTTIE. a sham with respect to our charitable in These two letl.ers give a clear identity to stitutions. I am sure that the Colonial this particular dinner. I want hon. mem Secretary will be only too glad to lay on bers to see what the dinner was, or is, be the table the dinner which troubles me so cause I think that it has changed very little much. I left for my successor in the office in its character. I believe that it might of Colonial Secretary a packet containing be kept almost until the end of time. It was this celebrated dinner, or rather this mass taken, I repeat, as a sample of the food of animal matter, and also a memorandum which was given to these unfortunate for his guidance, saying where it came women. The production of it, with the from and what use it was intended to be evidence of the ladies' committee, induced put to. I also called his attention to the me at once to change the whole dietary inquiry which was going on with respect arrangements of the establishment ; and to the Newington Asylum. The Colonial the other alterations which were made Secretary told me last night-no doubt he from time to time were the means of thinks I am pressing this question rather largely saving the lives of these unfortu persistently-he was under the impression, nate creatures. I hold in my hand a from information he had received, that this startling document, which I wish to bring so-called dinner did not come from the before the Colonial Secretary. It is a Newington Asylum at all. blank medical certificate of the cause of Sir HExRY PARKES : I never said any death, signed with a rubber stamp by Dr. thing of the kind ! Rowling. This certificate, if I were to [1lfr. Lvne. Adjournment. [18 MAY, 1887.] Government Asyiiwns, &c. mislay it, might be used with respec~ to :i\Ir. DIBBS : That is the evidence on some hon. member who might be obnox10us which I ask the Colonial Secretary to act to the Government. With this authority with the utmost promptitude. If Dr. Row my hon. friend, Mr. Melville, might quietly ling resume his position in this asylum inter the remains of any hon. member in these documents will be brought into use any cemetery. again. Sir HENRY PARKES : ·what is the date l.Wr. H. TAYLOR: There is no likeli- of it 1 hood of him coming back ! m Mr. DIBBS: It is undated. It can Mr. DIBBS : So much the better for_.. be filled in to-night if the hon. member the inmates. Here is conclusive proof will name a subject to he disposed of. Any that the report which has been the sub medical man who would leave a document ject of debate in this Rouse, in this par of this kind about, to be filled in at a ticuhir at least, is true. I was rather moment's notice, would not scruple to take amused when I read in Monday morning's the life of a patient who was a trouble to paper that the Colonial Secretary and the him, and I contend that this medical officer late Attorney-General, and some other ought not to remain one hour longer m gentlemen-members of the press, I pre the public service. sume-paid an official visit to the asylum at Newington. I have been told-I have Mr. HASSALL : Murder legalised ! not had time to see whether or not the Mr. DIBBS: Undoubtedly it is murder statement is correct-that it was an le .. lo· 1r·-. .Adjournment. [ ASSE~IBL Y. J Gove1'nment Asylums, &:c. j~1 (· : . them. This letter from Mrs. Pottie is tunate inmates. They will decline to tell addressed to l\fr. Abbtf.t : the truth for fear of the terrors and hor- :~·- :' Dear sir,-In \•isiting Newington Asylum to- rors which will follow if the present mana day, in company with a member of the ladies' gers remain in their institutions. The whole board, I found the girl Emma Reading, re- difficulty of the board was to get evidence •:·· .. ferred to in your published report, in great from the unfortnnate inmates,· but in this trouble. She said she had been asked by the matron to sign a paper contradicting the state- respect the ladies' board, who devoted a ment she had made to you refative to her treat- considernble amount of attention to the • inent in the asylum. She said she had not slept investigation, was of great assif,tance. all night, ancl was in a state of great trepidation These poor weak cripples, many of them and in tears, she, being a cripple, is so powerless to help herself. I said, in the presence ancl in the last stage of existence, felt .the diffi- hearing of the other members of the board, "If culty of giving evidence. They said, "If you have stated anything untrue do not hesitate we tell you what we know, will you pro to sign a paper to that effect, hut if what you tect us from punishment1" There is the have said is true adhere to it and I will protect you to the best of my ability." She said, "I clearest possible evidence in the report have only spoken what is true. I was put away that the unfortunate inmates were pun by the nmt~on's orders and neglected by tho~e ished for giving evidence. I know that 'under her till n~y head was unclean and my hair a.the Colonial Secretury has a press of matted so that 1t had to be cut off by one of the .., . . inmates." I do not care to write what she work. I know what the dnties of his stated as to the state of heF person. She also said office·are; but I contend that in a ma,tter that at the present time she has to pay a wards- of such rrrave importance as this it is to woma~1 for the c~n~1mon attention necessary to the inter~sts of the colony itself 'that not lier cnppled concht1on. one l1our should elapse be f ore act10n· is· Without taking up the words of the hon. taken. I was Lhuned last Tuesday for al member for the Upper Hunter, 1\lr. lowing a certain time to elapse without 1\foElhone, who the other night called at dealing with the question; but there is no tention to the difficulty of obtaining evi excuse for one hour being lost now. We dence because the inmates of the asylum have evidence to the point; the trial is were in fear, because they had not the over, and the only way to do justice is to .courage to state the truth unless they suspend the persons charged with certain were offered some protection, I wish to offences, and to leave on them the onus of point out that the letter which I have extricating themsel vcs. Since I spoke just read bears testimony to the difficulty last TUf$day, I have received numerous which will surround dealing with the letters from the inmates of the asylums. question if the Colonial Secretary attempts I do not intend to weary the House by to set up another species of inquiry on top reading them, but they all point to one of the inquiry which has already been made. thing-that the people there are in a state vVe have had an inquiry by three com of intimidation, and that the trnt.h will missioners, two of whom at least are be never be arrived at as long as these per yond suspicion-men of undoubted ability, sons charged with these oftences remain in who have earned the confidence and re possession of the castle. The Colonial Sec spect not only of the country, but also of retary may visit the asylum now after an various governments. I allude to Mr. T. alarm has been raised, and he will find K. Abbott and Dr. Thompson. 'With everything nice and smooth. He will !.ind evidence so strong as that which is con that the managers and mistresses 'vill tained in the report, with documentary deny every charge made against them. evidence such as I have now read, I think The evidence taken by the board has·only to it is tl1e duty of the Colonial Secretary to be read to see how conclusive it. is. Mrs. .give the Honse not only a definite assur Pottie's letter points almost to the impossi ance that in a few duys he will deal with bility of getting at the truth from the in the matter, but that he will suspend the mate!'.!. vVe certainly cannot geL any persons who are charged in the report further evidence from the unfortunates with certain offences, so that the truth who are in the grave. I feel bound to may be got at. Depend upon it, the move the adjournment of the House; it is truth will never be got if the managers not a question of leaving the matter over and mistresses of the institutions are al for another week or ten days before act.ion lowed to coerce1and int1inidate the unfor- is taken, because, in all probability, before [ .ilfr. Dibbs. Ad;fournment [18 l\IAY, 1887.J Government Asylwms, &:c. 157~~ that time elapses, I may be debarred:from been given to understand that he has in speaking on a question of this kind. I dulged in some .£lrug-which is worse beg to move: than intoxicating drink-until he has be 'That this House do now adjourn. come quite unfitted for his duties. So far Questi9n proposed. as he is concerned, the casP. being clear, Sir HENRY PARKES: I must ex the Government have already taken ac • press my extreme surprise, as well as my tion. 'With regard to the other matters,. extreme regret, at the course taken by the the Government will act with as great hon. member. "\Vhat o~ject he thinks he promptitude as they can under the cir-~ can attain, I am at a loss to conceive. cumstances. I have had much longer ex Now we will take Mrs. Pottie's letter. I perience than the hon. member for The should like to ask to what Mr. Abbott Murrumbidgee has had in dealing with that letter was addressed, whether to Mr. these institutions. My experience has Abbott, a member of this House, or to extended over nearly twenty years, and I 1\fr. Abbott who assisted in the inqniry i do not believe that there is a.ny person in I 11ave a particular reason for wishing the community who will accuse me of !t that information. want of humanity or want of promptitude Mr. DrnBs : I will hand the hon. mem- in attending to these matters; bnt, as I ber the letter ! ...C: have already stated, I can only proceerl Sir HENRY PARKES : This letter, with caution, with full information, and word for word, \Vas addressed. to me also, after testing certain statements. I will and I suppose it has been addressed in now state one circumstance which is circul::tr form to others. I had the letter enough to throw doubt npon this inquiry. with me when I visited Newington last One of the witnesses has addresseLl a letter Snturday, and I handed it with others to to a member of this House, a gentleman the late Attorney-General, 1\fr. "\Vant, and who, I believe, is of as kind and gentle-· he was perfectly satisfied of the want of any disposition as almost any man living. foundation for the statements contained in This witness has addressed a letter to this that letter. The mere circumstance .of a gentleman in such language that it would lady, or any other person, addressing a be impossible to make it public, or even to letter to the Colonial Secretary, who is the give an idett of its c:haractet'. The late 1\linister responsible for these asylums, Attorney-General, Mr. "\Vant, who reacl and then addressing a similar letter to the letter, said deliberately that it \Yas the other persons, looks very curious, to say foulest language he had ever see·n on paper the least of it. I say this without attempt in his whole life. The hon. member for ing to throw the slightest doubt on the The Murrumbidgee said that he had re good intentions of this lady. Now, with ceived a number of letters. I, too, l1ave regard to Dr. Rowling, in his case there is been perfectly inundated with letters with no doubt whatever that he did a very im respect to this inquiry. In one of these proper thing in signing death certificates letters, written evidently by an educated in blank. I have already directed that he man with great propriety of language, it be called upon to show cause why he is stated distinctly, and the statement is should not be dismissed from the public ·confirmed by 1t number of others, that the service. "\Vhat more could be done in board of inquiry, when they visited this his case~ Dr. Rowling is in Melbourne, asylum, only took down the evidence of and I believe, as the hon. member for The dissatisfied persons, and never once called ]\forrnm bidgee has exphtined, he is in a for any of the more obedient and rule very deranged state of health. I believe abiding inmates of the asylum; that they that Dr. Rowling was appointed by me took, as a rule, only the evidence of those when I was formerly Colonial Secretary. persons who made charges against the At that time I believe he stood in society asylum, and never attempted to elicit the with a character which secured the con evidence of the orderly and well·conclucted fidence of most persons who knew him, but persons of the institution. If that be unfortunately for himself he has fallen into true, I say that the report is not worth a strange course of life, which has had the the paper it is written on. effect of destroying his character. "What Mr. DrnBs : That statement is not cor that is I do not know exactly; but I haYe rect!'. .. ~~574 Adjournment [ASSEMBLY.] Govemment Asyhims, &c. Sir HENRY PARKES: The hon. in doing all I can to test its value. It is member has adduced #,is letters; I give as clearly my duty as any duty thrown the House the letters I have received, and upon me, and depend upon it I will do it, I will have these letters collated, and laid and consistently with the discharge of this on the table of the House before I lay duty I will hurry the matter to a conclu • anything else on the table ; and I will sion, and if I find it necessary to remove also lay before hon. members a fair state every person in charge of these asylums I ment of the circumstances under which shall not hesitate to remove them; but I ~~this "fatty matter" ~as obtained. There, will not do an injustice to any indi>idual ,..again, if the hon. member would consult if I can help it. That is the position I the ·hon. and learned member for Gun take up in the course which I very imper dagai-to whose testimony, I suppose, fectly indicate I shall pursue. he would give credence-he would find Mr. CREER said that, however neces that Mr. Want himself, not I, examined sary the Colonial Secretary might deem it persons with regard to that fatty sub that he should do justice to the officers of stance. That hon. member, to my sur the asylum, not a single moment should be prise, entered so fully into this inquiry lost in dealing with a matter of this cha that to a large extent I allowed him to _racter. conduct the examination, and did very Sir HENRY PARKES: There is one mode little of it myself, when I was at the of dealing with it. Put ine out of office asylum on Saturday. I do not believe and let the hon. gentleman deal with it that the hon. member for The l\:Iurrum himself! bidgee himself can doubt that I am as de Mr. CREER said this question was of sirous as he is of seeing justice done. If even greater importance than putting the I do not look upon it in just the same hon. gentleman out of office ! light as he does, that is my misfortune, I Sir HENRY PAHKES : I tell 110n. gen suppose ; but, as I am in the position of tlemen opposite that I will take my own responsibility, I will not incur that re· course! sponsibility by any rash and inconsiderate Mr. CREER was surprised that a gen action. I will take my own course with tleman occupying the position of Premier as much promptitude as possible, and I should deal with a matter of this import will not cause any very great delay. But ance with such frivolity. I must test a number of the statements which have been made. It is my duty to Ho"'. l\1EMDERS : Shame ! Shame ! test them, and it is my duty to ascertain Mr. CREER would say at any rate that as fully, and by as independent an the hon. gentleman did not deal with the authority as I can, the truth of the whole subject with sufficient seriousness. By matter ; and if I speak for an hour, I can allowing our old men and women to die,, say no more. If hon. gentlemen were de by allowing them to be treated in the sirous to assist the Government in this cruel and inhuma,n manner described in difficult and rather delicate matter, they the report we should bring a stain upon would not, during this short period of the colony that could not be removed. time, bring this matter before the House. Sufficient evidence of a reliable character The hon. mern ber stated-and I cannot had been published to justify the dismissal help pointing this out-that this "dinner,'' of every one connected with these institu as he calls it, this "fatty substance," was tions. If we could not rely upon a report brought to him in July last. Why did submitted by one of our stipendiary magis he preserve it wrapped up, and leave it as trates, Dr. Ashburton Thompson, and Mr. a legacy to me~ And, having done that, Robison -- why does he now insist upon my laying it Mr. CAMERON : He's a d~isy ! on the table almost without a day's notice~ Mr. CREER said that the report re l\:Ir. Drnns : Because the hon. gentleman flected upon the manner in which Dr. doubts the report, which he has no right Robison had performed his duties as in to do, and I want to prove its correctness! spector of charit.ies. Sir HENRY PARKES : I feel a broad Mr. CA.,IERON : He is not a doctor ; he ground for doubting the utility of that re is the late Sir Alexander Stuart's brother port, and I shall not hesitate for a moment in-la.w ! [Sir Henry Parkes. --.~ • Ad}oi£rmnent. [18 MAY, 1887.J Government Asylums, &:c. 15.~ 1\ir. CREER asked if we could not rely the report of the Asylums Commission, of upon 1\fr. T. K. Abbott i which Mr. Robisolt,was a member, it was Mr. CAMERON : No ; if you take his not competent for an hon. member to re Macleay River expences you cannot rely fer to the manner in which that gentle· upon him! man performed his duties i Mr. CREER: What motive could in Mr. SPEAKEU : If the House were deal- • duce such gentlemen as those he had ing with the report of th~, commission on named to draw up a report which had to a substantive motion,, the hon. member be tested, as the Colonial Secretary said i fo~ Northumberland. woul~ be. in order inw/# He believed e1-ery word of the report. gomg as far as he did go m his remarks~ Sir HENRY PARKES : That is no reason but this debate is on a motion of adjourn why sensible men should believe it ! ment, and there is a very wide distinction Mr. VI/ ALKER: Nor is it any reason why between such a motion and one of a specific interested parties should believe it ! character. .Mr. CREER said that the treatment of Mr. CREER would refrain from attack our old people was of more importance ing this gentleman's character, but would than the passing of the Customs Duties simply say that in his opinion he was a Bill, as it affected the honor, the sympathy, thoroughly useless Government officer. A and the manhood of the House. He could•• few weeks ago he met a man who had been understancl illtreatment in an asylum sup an inmate of the Benevolent Asylum on ported by private contributior1s; but in two different occasions. This man was a this case the Parliament of the country cripple, and now earned his living by voted sufficient funds to make our old blacking boots in George-street. He knew people comfort::tble, and to provide proper him when he was well off, and hefore cir attention for them, and to read of the in cumstances had reduced him to his present human conduct described in the report of unfortunate position. He advised .this the commission was dreadful in the ex man to go into one of our charitable asy treme. Not only should Dr. Rowling be lums, and he said, "Mr. Creer, I have dismissed, but every person who had any been there, and I would rather die or con thing to do with these institutions should tinue to black bqots in the streets of Syd be instantly dismissed. Mrs. Hicks ought ney than live for one week in one of our to be dismissed beyond a doubt, and 1\fr. charitable asylums." This man was an Robison ought to be dismissed. This inmate of one of the asylums, and left be gentleman was well paid by the country cause of the treatment he received there. to perform the duties of inspector of chari The treatment given to him was such that ties, and if he had done his duty, the pro 'no member of the House would bestow bability was that these old people would upon a clog. The disclosures made by the have been treated differently. He knew report were simply dreadful, and there Mr. Robison to some extent. He bP-lievecl should not be a moment's delay in dealing him to be about as useless a Government with the matter. Surely there was suffi officer as there was in the whole of the cient human sympathy and. feeling in the Government service. He appeared to be Government to see that our old people only tit to be dressed up as a toy to be were properly cared for, and that those looked at. into whose charge they were placed were Mr. SPEAKER : I must remind the hon. the right class of persons to attend them i member that it is not in order in a debate If Dr. Rowling, the matron, and the on a motion of adjournment to attack the other officers of the asylum had been in character of a public servant. If such a structed to dispose of these old people course is intended it should be done under as rapidly as they could, they could a specific motion. not have pursued a course more calcu Mr. CREER said he was not attacking lated to bring about this result than such the private character of Mr. Robison. as they had adopted in their treat Mr. SPEAKEU : The rule applies to the ment of the persons placed in their care. p.ublic as well as to the private character He trusted that the Colonial Secretary, of a public offcer. with his human sympathy and feeling, Mr. FLETCIIEU asked if he was to under would not delay. For the honor of the stand that in discussing a document like colony he hoped no time would be lost in ,. ,_. 1576 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Government Asylwns, &c. replacing those now in charge of these sen tati ve of the opposite side of the House. institutions by others who would have It was pointed out to me that the Premier sufficient human sympathy to attend pro intended to make this visit and wished to perly to these old people. Unless that were be accompanied by a member of the House done cruelty would continue. No doubt from his own side and also by some one • everything was in a nice orderly condition who would represent the opposite side of whe11 the Colonial Secretary and one or the House. I was asked late on Fricby two others went there. It was well known evening to accompany him on this visit, • . that they were going there. and I can say with the most perfect safety ·~ · Sir HENRY PARKES : It was not known! that no one knew about the visit. I J\fr. CREER read about it the clay arrived at the wharf where the steamer before the hon. gentleman went there. was lying before the Colonial Secretary, Sir HEXRY PARKES: The hon. member and I asked the men in the steamer where ci:nmot produce any such printed matter! they were going to, but I found they had Mr. CREER was sorry he had not the no idea as to where they were going. I Newcastle paper with him ; but he read it asked the gentlemen of the press if they there. \Vhen he read that he said, "Every knew where they were going to, and they thing will be·iu apple-pie order when they informed me that they did not know where arrive there." The evidencfl given by the they were going, but that they had simply board of ladies was quite sufficient. been asked to accompany the Premie1· Mr. IVITHERS: Ladies are bad hands at somewhere. I feel perfectly certain from weighing evidence! what we sa\v on our arrival there that our l\Ir. CREER thought that the evidence visit was unexpected. Having arrived of their eyes might well be taken. They there I thought it my public duty-cer could see for themselves what had tuken tainly an unpleasant duty-to see that place, and what the ladies had said was· matters were inquired into in such a way quite sufficient to justify everything in that there should Le no humbug about the the commissioners' report. No doubt after thing. I asked the Colonial Secretary to what had taken place everything in these allow me to have my own way, and that institutions would go w.ell for a little if I were asked to go into one ward first I while ; but unless some change were made shouB be allowed to pick out another ward the old state of affairs would soon be re so that the wards should not be got ready verted to. vVas it not in itself sufficient for our inspection. I am bound to say that that the doctor signed certificates of death the courtesy was afforded me of being in blank 1 allowed to take my own course, and when Mr. HURLEY : Has not the Colonial I was asked to go into a ward, I picked out Secretary said sufficient about that 1 another ward as far away as possible, and I Mr. CREEH, : Mrs. Hicks knew this visited all the places 01Jt of order, and in was being clone, and she should have re such a way that it was impossible after we ported such a gross neglect of duty to the arrived to get anything ready for our in Colonial Secretary. He did not know l\Irs. spection. I am not here to sit in judg Hicks, and he did not care who she was. ment on the board. I was asked to go He only spoke in the interests of these and see the present state of affairs, and if old people, whose lot would be hard enough there was any necessity for an immediate whate\-er comforts might be afforded to change. It was no part of my duty, nor them. He hoped that the Colonial Sec is it now, to find fault with or criticise the retary would, to-morrow, take steps to report of the board ; but I feel it my duty place some other persons in charge of these to say, without any fear of contradiction, institutions who would administer them that the inquiries which I made convinced as hon. members would like to see them me-I think I must say this in justice to administered. the matron, who is unknown to me-that :i\Ir. vV ANT : Although I am loath to any charges of unkindness on her part take up the time of the House on a motion towards these old women are thoroughly fo1; adjournment I think I owe no apology unjustifiable. M:y late colleague, the hon. to-night in saying a few words. I was member for The Murrumbidgee, laughs. I asked by the Premier to accompany him know perfectly well that he has chaffed upon this visit as, so to speak, the repre- me, and said that I have been "had." [ Mr. Creer. ·. Adjournment. [18 lVIAY, 1887.J Government Asylitms, &:c. 1577 l\fr. DrnBs : So you have been "had!" to sleep, ,;i.nd there is not a nurse in the Mr. vV ANT : I think I know enough whole establishment; and there is not a of the world to know my own road about, man in the whole establishment. and if I am to be "had,'' it will take some Mr. DIBBS : There are four men ! one a great deal smarter than my late col Mr. vV ANT: They are only grooms ancl league or the Premier to do it. I insisted gardeners. \Vhat is wantt.d is to have the upon Mrs. Hicks being absent from the institution placed urider a system of disci premises when I was making my inquiries, pline and to have paid nurses, so that these ., and after I had made inquiries in one people may be taken care of. Although I ~, place, and had passed to the other wards, clo not wish to say one word with regard when I saw Mrs. Hicks passing I watched to the report of the board, I cannot help through the windows to see if she went to feeling that they have taken the evidence the people whom I had examined to speak of inmates who were wholly unworthy of to them. I saw that when she passed credit. One woman gave evidence. I these people they held up their hands in called her into the room, in accordance kindness to her, and when she was passing with the permission given by the Colonial they called her over to them, and they Secretary that I should take my own course stroked her cheeks in absolute afiect.ion. in making the inquiry. This woman-who Hon. members may laugh; but I wish to is named Mary Butler-gave the strong- see justice clone, and I will do it. I clo·not est evidence before the commission, and care either for the laughter or the cheers denounced Mrs. Hicks, characterising her of hon. members. I believe fully what I in the most violent language. On the day say; and I suppose, as belonging to the we visited the institution we saw the din- legal profession, I am in as good a position ner provided for the inmates. I saw joints of judging human character as anybody of meat ther;e such as I have never been here. I do not care who laughs ot· who able to get on my own table. cheers; but I say without the fear of con HoN. MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! tradiction that the result of 111y inquiry Mr. WANT : Hon. members may say was to show me that Mrs. Hicks undoubt "Ob, ob ! " but I challenge denial. Re eclly possessed the affection and regard of porters of the press were there, and they these old women. "\Vith respect to some can contradict me, if I am wrong. I saw of the things I saw, there is not the there joints of roast beef, such as I do not slightest doubt that abuses existed in the see once in twelve months on my own past, and that they still exist. For in table, and which I could not get if I tried. I stance, I saw an open i. ~.... • _I 1578 .Adjou1·nment. [ ASSEJ\IBLY. J Government .Asylums, &c . Hicks were utterly false and without An HoN. MEMBER : Now ! foundation. If we are to judge from the Mr. ·w ANT : And its present condition cparacter of these people what their evi is a credit to the management. The old dence is worth, I say that the report of people say "we might have more luxuries; the board-although I do not want to say but we get all that we could expect to get one word against it-must be regarded in a charitable institution." I found that with some degree of caution. I under they were allowed to go out whenever stand the Premier has referred to a letter they liked, so how is it possible that the •. which I have seen written by another wit frightful state of affairs which has been ness who gave evidence respecting the old described, could have existed without men's institution at Parramatta. I have coming to the ears of the public~ I will seen a good deal of life in my time ; I now give an instance of the querulousness have been through a good many rough of some people. One woman came down scenes ; but I never in all my life heard from Mudgee to be treated for some affec such· language as is contained in this letter. tion of the leg. I should state.that the This man had been fifteen times in gaol. matron and the wardswomen were kept Knowing that he was a character of that out of the wards while we were making kind, if he is to be taken as a sample of these inquiries. The inmates were asked the people examined, I can only say that if they had any complaints to make. This the report of the board is utterly worthless. poor woman, in reply to a question, said, I do not know whether it is or not, but it "Yes, I have a complaint. I came down is no part of my duty, I repe&t, to' find to be treated for a sore leg. The doctor fault with what they have done in the past. has seen me three or four times. He \,Vhat we saw may have been the result of examined my leg on Thursday; he was in that inquiry. I am sure that every hon. the hospital yesterday, but he did not come member must feel satisfied to know that, · to see me." So because the doctor did not for the present at all events, these old see her every time he visited the hospital, • people are well treated. she complained! Mr. NEILD : What about the evidence Sir HENRY PARKES : \,Vhen they under ·of the ladies' committee ~ stood that the question had reference to Mr. WANT : I have already said that the matron, they instantly said " we have it is no part of my duty to inquire into or no complaints !" in any way to question the decision of the Mr. \,VANT : Although a late colleague board of inquiry;- I am speaking of what of mine seems to think I have been got at, we saw in the asylum. The only thing I still I believe that the Premier and the do question is the charge of cruelty against reporters will admit that I took up an the matron. That I do not believe. I am independent position. perfectly certain from the inquiries I made Sir HENRY PARKES : Hear, hear ! that it is either grossly exaggerated or Mr. "\VANT : I asked at the beginning wholly unfounded. \,Ve visited the dormi that I should be allowed to take my own tories first to ascertain if it was true course in this inquiry. We examined the that the sheets had been left on the beds whole institution before we had our lunch, for weeks promise was made the Premier wrote to ter to which I will draw attention. It me to know whether it was my desire to was contended tl:.at as this judgeship was obtain the judgeship in the Supreme Court, created by Parliame1it on the proposal of referring to our previous conversation, be the present Government, that was a rea cause I did not at that time make any son why I should not accept the appoint comment one way or the other. It has ment, that it was an office created by the been a principle of mine not to ask for an Governmentofwhichl was a member. That appointment of that kind in the way was not a matter on which we. had any which I might have appeared on some faces .when that state could be extracted. There were no vegetables, ment was made one was almost forced to barley, nor rice cooked with it. When the meat was well boiled some of the liquid was the conclusion that they were interested in brought in a very old and dirty-looking bucket ·supplying the beef. The hon. and learned to the cancer ward for the pa.tients' dinner ; on member left the House to infer that the this a quarter of an inch of liquid fat floated; state of things which he witnessed was the there had evidently been no attempt to skim it; there had not even been any flour added to ab state of things which had always pre sorb or mix with the fat, and so make it less re- vailed. pulsive. ' Mr. W AN'r : Not at all ! This was the testimony of a lady who Mr. FLETCHER intend<:id to read from went to the institution without the officials the evidence given by Lady Martin an having any knowledge that she intended account of what she herself saw on her to visit it. This might be taken as a fair first visit to the institution, and if we description of the condition of the institu compared Lady Martin's account with that tion prior to action having been taken to given by the hon. and learned mem her for remedy it.· Gundagai the contrast would be sufficiently This so-called soup was served in old and striking, and every sensible man would be dirty looking tin pannikins ; afterwards the forced to the conclusion that the great soup meat was served out ; this was hard from change :which the hon. and learned member having been boiled too fast. Up to the time of witnessed was due to some power which our visit the inmates had had no roast meat, al though joints suitable for roasting had been sup had not been mentioned. The names of plied in profusion, o.nd a splendid range was in the ladies' visiting committee afforded a the .kitchen at the disposal of the cook. sufficient. guarantee that those ladies were Contrast this with the statement of the not likely to be led away by any sensa hon. and learned member for Gundagai, tional reports. No one would say that and then let him ask himself the honest Lady Martin, IIIrs. Goodlet, Mrs. Pottie, question whethe1· prepa.ration had not been Miss Stephen, or Mrs. Bedford would be made for his visit~ likely to be led away by such reports. At page 43 of the report of the board of in Mr. ·WANT: It had not! quiry Lady Martin's evidence was given l\lr. FLETCHER Lad too much con as follows :- fidence in the Colonial Secretary to believe Did you o.ccompany the boo.rd on its first visit that he would directly or indirectly let to Newington? No; but I did on the second any of the officials know that he intended visit, on the 3rd of August. to visit the institution. However much Di insufficiently cooked ; these cabbages hacl evi grace to New South Wales, and he did not dently been cut after our arrival, which I sup care what ministry was in office at the pose was the reason that the dinner was not served until nearly il o'clock. ·time-he had not looked up the dates to see what ministry was in power ; but it He would have been very glad if the late was decidedly a discredit to New South Attorney-General, or the present Attorney Vhles, a discredit to people w1!o called General, as the case might be, had told themselves a Uhristian community, a dis the House at what time this excellent credit to a country supposed to possess dinner, this magnificent repast, was served; representative institutions, if those repre whether there was no delay in the prepa sentative institutions were to be degraded ration of tl1ese magnificent joints of beef, and debased, and insulted by the occur- the like of which the hon. gentleman was • rence of such deplorable outrage in these unable to obtaiu for his own table. He institutions. HeL"e was another statement, certainly gave the hon. member for Gnn in the evidence of a daughter of a late dagai all ,the credit he took to himself as chief justice, Miss Alice Stephen: a keen dissector of evidence. As a witness I thought that the pn,tients who were dying and foreman of juries in cases the hon. of consumption were dying from neglect. There . gentleman had been conducting in the was one womn,n in the wanl who was absolutely Supreme Court, he had often seen his dying from neglect. Do you remember the name of that patient 2 great ability in dissecting evidence, but he No; bnt she died two days after we saw her. was not prepared on those grounds to give ·was she able to make any complaint to you ? the hon. gentleman equal credit for ability Yes; she said she was suffering, and could not to play the part of a gentleman detective, digest any food ; that the doctor had seen he1: and ordered her rice; that sbe had had it once. and he thought that if the hon. gentle about a week ago, and since then she had hacl man had given the matter a little more only dry bread and water. She died two days consideration, he would have seen that after we saw her. there was a vast difference between the An HoN. ME)!BER : It was murder ! obtaining of evidence from, perhaps, un i\1r. NEILD said that if that statement willing witnesses in a court, where a little was true, it was a case of slow murder, and useful, legal brow-beating was one of the slow murder was as great an offence under best qualifications of an advocate, and the the law as immediate homicide was. Here ability required to obtain the truth under again was a statement to which he wished such circumstances as those related by the hon. gentlemen to pay particular attention, hon. gentleman. Lady .Martin went on to in view of the remarks of the hon. mem say: ber for Gundagai, about the magnificent There were no chairs or tables in the cancer repast he saw. Miss StE>phen said : ward, and, to take their food, the women hacl to There was one remark that they all made ; sit on their beds, or on the floor. that the· food was always better when the Go We were told thnt we were not to credit vernment launch was seen coming up the river, the statements contained in the report; but the dinner was sometimes not dintributed but surely the evidence of Lady .Martin until half-past 2 o'clock. would not be questioned~ . He did not say vVl1en the Government launch was seen this merely because the lady in question coming up the river, arrangements were bore a title. There were other ladies, made to have everything in apple-pie order, from whose evidence he would malre brief in time for the arrival of the distinguished quotations, equally worthy of credence, visitors. Here were some statements made and he too~( it that the House would not by another lady eminent in New South be prepared to place any doubt on the ..\.Liles charitable circles, l\1rs. Eliza Pottie. testimony of the ladies whose evidence be She said, "There were no seats." This was about to quote. He wonld make a bore out the evidence of Lady l\fa1tin. quotation from the evidence of :Miss Elea \Ve went into the hospital, and we fonnct some of the olcl women dying in bed. How nor Bedford, and he did not think any one many? I sn,w abou(, three, with the sheets over would doubt the reliability of her state their faces, apparently dying; one wo1nan was ments. Speaking of the patients, she said: apparently in the agony of death ; I saw her ; They had only enough food to keep them from her eyes and month and nose were filled with starvation. flies. One of the ladies with me went over aml brushed them away. She was trying to say This referred to the patients of the Newing '' flies," an cl that was all she could say. On ton Asylum. Now it was a public dis- the next visit I paicl I found that she had died. [llfr. Neild. Adjoiirnrnent. [18 MAY, 188·7.J Government Asylums, &:c. 1585 These were not things that a man could The woman in charge said she did her best to read. If he started to read them in cold get sufficient coal, but was allowed only one bucket of coal for twenty-four hours. blood, his blood would not keep cool for any great length of time if he were worthy of This was in a dormitory containing seven being called l\Ir. NEILD : I£ so, there were no and he did not know a single one of any thanks clue to the Newington Asylum. of the officers connected with these insti There was evidence further on about lay tutions, therefore he could speak without ing out and washing the deceased in beds the smallest personal feeling with regard adjoining those occupied by the living. to any one of tliem. An effort had been He received a note quite recently with made to-night to damage the value of that reference to this matter, a. brief extract report, and to cast discredit upon it, for from which he would read to the House. the reason that the evidence of some of The letter was dated the very day before the witnesses-the inmates-was not re the Premier went to Newington. It was liable. He freely admitted that evidence from one of the ladies who had given some of that kind was by no means always re evidence he had quoted. The letter was liable. He would doubt such evidence as dated the 12th May, and it stated: - much as the Premier would, because he Yesterday I visited Newington. The water had had something to do with that sort of for the cancer patients to drink was kept in a people, and he knew the difficulty in get galvanised slop pail, the pillows made of rough ting the truth from them ; but he thought Holland, one-fourth filled with chaff, and with out pillow-cases. it was his duty to say something in de fence of the report, basing his arguments vVas chaff such a dear article that a pillow upon the evidence of witnesses whose case could not e\·en be filled with that word could not be questioned, and whose most inexpensivc and uncomfortable of long experience and great public services head rests~ The hon. member for New in the cause of charity were beyond all castle in this debate had read evidence question and cavil. He had already urged from the report bearing out this state that justice should be done. . He wanted ment. It was shown that patients had no more and he would be satisfied with no to shake the miserable handfuls of chaff less. He thought still that the officers in at one end of the pillow-case in order to charge of such institutions against whom get any rest for their heads. The letter such serious allegations had been made went on to say : should have been suspended. Whether that The whole of the meat for the institution put suspension should have come from the late into one boiler and boiled-the liquor the only broth supplied to the inmates, and the meat the Colonial Secretary, the hon. member forThe only meat. The dying had for their breakfast Murrumbidgee, before the presentation of dry bread and tea, which until just lately was this report, or. that it should follow now, of a wretched quality. I have seen the sago was a question on which he did not in taken to the sick--the dying-on one occasion in a dirty bucket, put into tin pannikins, ::md tend to express any opinion. The suspen partaken of with iron spoons. sion of public officers was essentially a There was nothing here about these sir matter which should be left in the hands loins of beef that the hon. member for of experienced ministers, and as has been Gundagai brought under the notice of the well said, there was no memher of the House when he related his experiences as House whose experience in such matters an amateur detective. These were state was at all equal to that of the Colonial ments made by a reliable witness respect Secretary. But he regretted that in the ing what she had seen in the Government interests of suffering humanity that that asylums of New South Wales: hon. gentleman had not seen proper to I have seen the hospital meat brought up in a place it out of the power of these officers large tin dish, cut up on one of the beds by one to have any direct influence on the in of the patients, and supplied in tin dishes to the mates. However, be was content to be others. · lieve that the Premier's experience was a There was more to the same effect. He better guide than perhaps bis own enthusi had not risen in any way to condemn the asm, and in no shape or way would he de action of the late GoVfirnment, or their sire to take any hasty action which might want of action, or to take any exception result in any injustice. He hoped earnestly to the manner in which the Premier was that the ontcome of this bonible exposure dealing with this matter. His object in would be to place beyond possibility any rising was to say something in defence of further occurrence of such iniquities, such the report. He knew little or nothing of sorrows and sufferings, as were disclosed the gentlemen who constituted the board, in this rep9rt. He could not help making [ 1lfr.. Neild. ~.--..---.--~. Adjournment. [18 MAY, 1887.J Government Asylums, &:c. 1587 a brief remark in reference to the other He drew attention then to the report matter which had been brought before the about the appointment of Mr. John House. He meant the retirement of the Davies, and he strongly protested, and he hon. gentleman who had been Attorney protested now against a person of his de General until to-clay. He was quite sure scription of character occupying such a that every well-wisher of the Ministry in prominep.t position. He said that '" the House must regre'0 tlie retirement of greater political counterfeit, whether in that hon. gentleman, and must also regret side or outside this House than John . ~ that anything had arisen to deprive the Davies had never existed in this country; country of the valuable services which he was a man whose character, both public from ~ime to time during many years past and private, had been always assailed by ho had conferred upon it. It would be a the press, by private individuals, and by hope of every well-wisher of the Ministry hon. members;. and he was denounced as that that hon. gentleman's place should a public plunclere1· in connection with our be filled if possible by a gentleman of the great exhibition. same courteous demeanour, and who would. Mr. ·WISE desired to know if it was in display the same admirable fittention to order on a motion of adjournment for an his duties both here and in his depart hon. member to attack the character of a ment, as had always been displayed by the public officer? hon. member for Newtown. Mr. HURLEY said the House had had , Mr. HURLEY said that the hon. mem the assurance of the Colonial Secretary ber for Paddington expressed a hope that the other night that this gentleman was no hasty action would be taken with re not paid, therefore he was not a public gard to this nmtter, but yet th~ very action officer. he was taking would accelerate what he lYir. WISE: He is acting in a public declaimed against. It was unwarrantable capacity! to take up the time of the House in de lYir. SPEAKER: I certainly think that any. bating a voluminous report of this descrip such allusion to the character of a person tion when we had the assurances of the who is not here to defend himself is in Colonial Secretm·y that he had the matter very bad taste and out of order, on a motion under his serious consideration, and that of adjournment. Any one acting in a not a ruoment should be lost in taking public capacity is open to criticism on a action against those who deserved to be specific motion, but not on a motion of censured. Great weight should be at adjournment. tached to the opinions which had been ex lYir. HURLEY : As to the question of pressed by the late Attorney-General, Mr. taste, we had had the opinion of the Chief Want. For many years past estimateshad Justice, and of prominent citizens, including been passed for keeping up these charitable the lYiayor of. Sydney, with respect to this institutions, which had been spoken of iii person, John Davies. He did not think the most complimentary manner in various that the Government were warranted, or parts_ of the world. He had read some re in keeping with the feelings of the people ports written by the Misses Hill, who said of this country in allowing this man to that during all their travels throughout hold a position which enabled him to con the civilised world they had never met with trol thousands of men and of money when an institution superior to that existing they knew that it was dangerous to trust in the town of Liverpool. He had lived him with anything. in that town himself for many years, and lYir. ALLEN thought that it was hardly he had had ::m opportunity day afte1· day fair to traduce the character of any gentle of seeing that institution, and he believed man, who had not the opportunity to defend that no more comfortable home for the himself, under the privilege of Parliament. aged or infirm existed in any part of the He could not sit still and hear a gentle world. He would take advantage of this man's characte1· traduced in this manner opportunity to call attention to a question unjustifiably, and whatever Mr. Davies which· he had asked the Colonial Sec might haYe been or might be at the present retary a short time ago with regard to time he questioned very much whether the appointment of the so-called casual there was a gentleman in New South board for dealing with the unemployed. Wales who r.ould bring anything agains1; 1588 Reve1.iiw Fimd Bill (No. 3). [ASSEMBLY.] . Supply. his political or his social cl1aracter. vVe Wales towards the services of the year 1887,'' through all its stages in one day ; and would might differ from him in many of the also preclude the resolutions of the Committees courses he had taken in life, we might speak of Supply and of Ways and Means respec harshly of him as a public man, but he tively, whereon the bill is proposed to be founded, thought tlutt it was hardly wise, or fair, or being received on the s11me day on which they manly to traduce his character when he had are come to by the said committees respec tively. not an opportunity to defend himself. Too ". frequently this privilege, or rather this l\fr. SPEAKER : I think it is the duty of license, was taken in this House, and he the Chair to point out that it is very un thought that hon. gentlemen should endea usual to move without notice the suspen vour, at all events, to deal fairly and justly sion of the standing orders, nevertheless with defenceless men. He repudiated with concurrence, it can be done. such statements as the hon. member for Mr. GARVAN: If it is the intention of Hartley had made, and should be very the Colonial Treasurer to bring in the bill sorry to be a party to them. to-night, I object! Mr. DIBBS, in reply: I am not going to . Mr. BURNS: I will give notice of motion take up the time of the House one moment for to-morrow. I desire to say that the longer than to say that the speeches leader of the Opposition and the hon. mem of hon. members on the question of the ber forThenfurrumbidgee had agreed to the Government asylums have fully answered resolution being put. It seems that they anything which has been said by the hon. cannot control their followers. I desired to and learned member for Gundagai. It is move the resolution, in·order to economise quite evident it is the general opinion of time, but the hon. member for Eden will not the House that my late colleague was permit the leaders to lead the Opposition. "had " specially for this occasion, and no Mr. G.\RVAN : I take the course which evidence as to the quality of the present I think is right ! food can be accepted as evidence of the SUPPLY. state in which things were when the In Committee: board of inquiry began its work. The 11fr. BURNS rose to move: Colonial Secretary has wasted a lot of That there be gmnte gentleman an opportunity to afford the in I am instructed by the iVallsend miners to formation ; but he thought that hon. respectfully draw your attention to the enclosed resolution, with a request that it be brought under members deserved at least civility from th~ notice of the Minister'for Mines. the Minister for Mines, and it was very unfair to place them in a position in which This letter was addressed to the hon. they seemed to offer obstruction merely members for Newcastle, the hon. members because they wanted to obtain informa for N ortbumberland, and several other tion. The statement made a few moments gentlemen: ago by the hon. member, that l\fr. Crou 1st. That we protest against Dr. Robertson as chairman of the royal commission to inquire dace had the confidence of the public was into the Bulli disaster, owing to the large in simply an evasion. If the hon. member terest he represent~ in coal and other mines in was prepared to say why he appointed the colony. ]\fr. Croudace, after his attention had been I reply to that tha.t Dr. Robertson has no called to the fact that that gentleman had direct interest in any mine in the colony; violated the Coal-fields Regulation Act but as an evidence of Lis worth, we have seven times, he would say no more; but the fact that he is engaged in connection if not, he would move the adjournment of with nearly every mine in the colony. the House. 1\fr. MELVILLE: By the masters ! • Mr. ABIGAIL: Iu reply to the hon. Mr. ABIGAIL: That is splendid tes member I desire to say that Mr. Croudace timony of the man's worth. was one of the first men I communicated 2nd. That we protest against Mr. J. Y. Neil with. He declined because of some ap son being on the commission, as he was one of parent disagreement with one of the com the principal witnesses· at the late inquest. mission. These gentlemen after\vards met To further show the feeling that exists at no leading representative of the Miners' Associa and had explanations, and Mr. Croudace tion of this district being a member of such then intimated that, he would withdraw board, it is urged by New Lambton lodge that his objection. Having received that inti the undersigned should take the place of Mr. mation, and also assurances from large Jones. sections of the community, that the ap The hon. member for Newcastle, Mr. pointment of Mr. Croudace would be re Fletcher, assures me that there is no bet cei vecl with p•1blicapprobation, I appointed ter man in the northern district to be on him as a member of the commission. the commission than l\fr. Jones. I posi Mr. McELHONE : From my knowledge tively refused to withdraw Mr. Jones' of .1\'J r. Croudace I do not believe that there name for the purpose of appointing Mr. is a better man in the whole of the Aus Curley. The minute which I wrote with tralian colonies ! reference to all these letters--the dozen Mr. MELVILLE asked the Minister of them-was: from what sectiqns of the community the Inform Mr. Curley that the commission ap pointed to inquire into the Bulli disaster must assurances he spoke of came;and why he be judge.cl by its work ; and that the Minister refused to appoint Mr. Curley, whose ap thinks it really very uufair to prejudge the case, pointment was requested by the whole as many nre now doing. Dr. Robertson's ap mining _community 1 poilltment cannot be altered. As for the rest of the commission, the public appear satisfied they 1\fr. ABIGAIL: My reason for declining will impartially perform the important duties to appoint 1\fr. Curley was this : I received intmsted to them. ten letters, most of them signed by 11'.lr. 1\fr. DrnBs : A better commission was Curley himself, five deputations and twelve never appointed ! personal representations, from the gentle Mr. MELVILLE said that the Minister man requesting me to put him on the com would make it appear that he had received inission. twelve letters from 1\fr. Curley, in which Mr. l\1cELHONE : Representations from that gentleman asked to be appointed to 1\fr. Curley himself 1 the commission. 1\fr. ABIGAIL: 1\fr. Curley wrote stat Mr. Mc EL Ho NE asked 1\fr. Spe~ker ing-I have his letters here -- whether this discussion was in order 1 1\fr. MELVILLE: Read one! Mr. MELVILLE said he would con ]\fr. ABIGAIL: I will read several of clude with a motion. The Minister said them if you like. Here is one : that the commission had met with public [ jJfr. llfelville. A dJournment. [18 1\fAy, 1887.J Bulli Colliery Corn-mission. 1591 approbation. He would tell the Minister be perfectly satisfied to await the verdict that that was not so. The Minister might which the commission might arrive at. be in a position to deny authoritatively He wished the Minister joy of his ap that Dr. Robertson had no direct interest pointment, and the back-stairs influence in the mines ; but he could not deny that to which he p1tid so much attention. He circumstances had happened in connection moved: • with the mines in which Dr. Robertson That this House do now adjourn. had played a leading part The objection Question proposed. to the appointment of Mr. Neilson was Mr. SEE presumed that the object of not on personal grounds, but on the ground the Minister in appointing the commission that it was contrary to all ideas of British was to get at the truth as to the cause of justice to first of all take a man's evidence the disaster in the Bulli mine. If the on a question and then appoint him a Minister had appointed men who had a judge to give a determination upon it. He prejudice against the proprietors of the objected to the Minister putting up his mine, and a feeling in favour of the un back and disregarding the opinion of the fortunate miners, the ends of justice would miners by appointing Mr. Croudace to the not be met. It was not right to assume commission. The Minister must be aware that these gentlemen would not give a fafr that Mr. Croudace had violated the Coal decision. The owners of the mine deeply fields Act. The Minister seemed to bow regretted the terrible occurrence, and the down to people who had wealth and influ public had displayed their sympathy for ence ; and he should like him to state those who had been bereft of their bread from what influential quarter it was that winners. He did not think that any mem the recommendation was made in favour ber of the commission would be actuated of Mr. Croudace 1 That gentleman had with the feeling that he was bound to had more disagreements with his men than bring in a verdict that someone was at fault. almost any other master in New South He did not think it proper that under the Wales. existing circumstances the subject should ,• Mr. SEE: That might have been the be referred to in the House in this way. fault of the men as well as of the masters ! He believed the Minister had been sincere Mr. MELVILLE did not say that it in the appointments he made. No doubt was always the fault of the masters; the if he had appointed other men the same men were quite as liable to make mistakes exception would have been taken to them. as the masters were. This was a serious matter, and we should Mr. SEE : \Vhat is the use of blaming let the matter go upon its merits. \:Ve the masters then ~ ought to assist the commission in every Mr. MEL VILLE said that. he was way we possibly could, and not impute blaming the Minister for listening to back motives which were unfair to them and stairs influence. At one time the hon. the country before the commission had an member said that the commission was com opportunity of showing their disposition plete, but at that time Mr. Croudace was to do what was right. not appointed ; and at another time he Mr. DIBBS congratulated the Minister told a deputation that no working miner for Mines on the composition of the com would be appointed to the commission. mission. He thought that a better com Mr. ABIGAIL : That is not true ! mission could not have been selected, and Mr. MELVILLE said that his hon. col it was very improper that the names of league, Mr. Walker, understood that that these gentlemen should be canvassed here :was the remark of the Minister, and he night after night. Of course the fact that was prepared to take his colleague's word. this was clone would make no difference Mr. ABIGAIL: My action gives the con to the commissioners so far as their report ' tradiction to that ! was concerned. Dr. Robertson he knew Mr. MELVILLE said that the action was a very able man, and no one would r~ferred to by the Minister was not taken question bis ability. With regard to Mr. until after attention had been called to the Croudace, there was no better man in the matter in Parliament. He had elicited Newcastle district, and none better able to from the Mini~ter the information which take a seat on the board, and form a cor he wanted, and, having done so, he would rect opinion. When the hon. member for ~--- 1592 ' Ad'()"ournriient .. [ASSEMBLY.] Bulli Colliery Cornznission. • • Nortlrnmberland spoke on this subject, he ·miners have a right to nominate members was inclined to say to the hon. gen'tleman, of the commission 1 · in the language qf Mr. Middlewick in the Mr. MELVILLE: ·why should the mas _play of. "Our Boys,'' "Do let me kno\v ters noiuinate any one ? something about butter." He was sure Mr. MaELHONE did not think that that the gentlemen who had been appointed the masters had nominated any one. He to this-commission would present a report did not know a single memLer of the com' which would be received with confidence mission, except Mr. Croudace, who, ac~ by the public. If the Minister for Mines cording to the judgment of the hon. mem had made a mistake, it had been in not ber for The lVIurrum bidgee, Mr. Dibbs, who having made the appointments right off in was an authority on coal-mining, was a the first insta,nce, and allowed no alteration · skilful man, with both a scientific and a afterwards ; and then if any hon. member practical knowledge of mining. The hon. thought he had done wrong, he should member for Newcastle, Mr. :Fletcher, who have called upon that hon. member to knew as much about coal-mining as any move a motion of censure. man in the Australian colonies, spoke ap Mr. C~EER said that some time ago proYingly of Mr. Croudace's qualifications, he inti:ocluced a deputation of miners to and also of the fitness of Mr. Jones, an the Minister, with the object of suggesting other member of the c9mmission. As far that the miners should be represented on as Mr. Croudace was concerned, that the commission. gentleman was no particular friend of his, . Mr. ABIGAIL : That the miners should but he believed that he was a man of nominate certain gent.lemen on the com ability, and that whatever conclusion he mission! came to would be an honest one. The Mr. CREER said lie might have mis only reason that he could see why the understood the hon. gentleman's answer hon. member for Northumberland objected to the deputation, but he was under the to Mr. Croudace, was because that-gentle impression that he said that no miners man had fought the Lambton miners, and would be appointed on the commission. defeated them. Mr. Croudace was per The hon. gentleman would .recollect that fectly justified in the course he took in re he expressed his regret at the decision at gard to the Lambton strike. Miners were which the hon. gentleman arrived. like sailors ; no matter how well you . Mr. ABIGAIL: I remember that I de" treated them, or what you gave them, they clined to allow the mine1;s to nominate wanted a little more. They were quite as any one. ·I sai_d that I would select my dissatisfied a class of men as sailors. Only own men. the other day, when the hon. member for Mr. CREER would like to state that Newcastle, Mr._ Fletcher, dismissed one of he was not a ware that there was any letter his employees, the miners had the impu from Mr. Curley requesting that he might dence to attempt to dictate to the hon. be placed on the commi~sion ; but a peti gentleman as to whom he should employ tion was sent to the Minister signed by and whom he should not. The miners had ·Mr. Curley, as secretary to the Miners' brought a good deal on themselves, by Association, expressing the desire of the their overbearing action in trying to have miners that as a representative man ~'fr. every thing their own way. Of late years Curley should be placed on the commis there had been nothing else but the cry of sion. the workii1g man, and the labourer had all Mr. lVIcELHONE thought that the hon. his own way. This state of things would member for Northumberland, Mr. Mel ville, bring ab9uf its own cure. Mr. Croudace, was making a great mistake. He gave the in his contest with the Lambton miners, hon. gentleman and his colleagues c1;eclit :was_ only acting_· at the dictation of those for being sincere in their desire to do good above him, and very likely had to obey the to the miners; bu_t he was doing that class orders of others, as the miners had to obey of the community more harm tl1an good his orders. He remembered reading 'a by the extreme course he was taking in statement made by the Lambton colliery ·this matter; and he failed to see hoiv the owners durin'g the strike, to the eftect Minister could have acted in any other that the men were earning from 15s: to ·manner than he did. Why should the 25s. a clay. They were not satisfied· with [Mr. Dibbs. ·•·':-' ------ Adjournment. [18 l\'IAY, 1887.J Bulli (Jolliery Commission. 1593 this remuneration. They said that the there was scarcely a place in the world to band of "jerry" was increasing in size, and which he had not been sent by various they struck because they could not get companies for the purpose of inspecting everything their ow.n way. They wanted and reporting upon mines. vVith regard arbitration, but would only agree to this to the working miners on the commission, Qn the basis of the settlement arrived at except on the ground of jealousy, no one in the case of the vVallsend mine. Mr. could possibly object to Mr. John Jones, Croudace would not consent to this, and from the Lambton colliery. the i:esult was, that after a strike extend Mr. McELHONE : The miners do no like ing over seven months, tlie miners lost his getting £3 3s. a day ! thousands of pounds, and were compelled Mr. FLETCHER said that the Minis to give in. l\fr. Croudace fought them in ter for Mines asked him if lie knew l\fr. a fair and open manner, but they could Jones, and he said that he did, and that not forget their defeat, and wished to harn there was not a more honest man amongst z·evenge. He was sorry that the hon. the coal-miners. The best proof of this was member for Northumberland should so that for the last twenty-four or twenty ()ften go out of his way to attack Mr. fi ve years the miners had kept him con Croudace, who, he believed, would do his tinuously as their check weighman at the duty as a commissioner honestly, fearlessly, Lambton colliery. He would have been and impartially. If the Minister had very glad if the Minister could 11ave seen searched the whole of the Australian his way to appoint more miners to the colonies, he could not have selected a commission, and he had stated so all better man. through; but he admitted that it was im Mr. FLETCHER said it was very much possible to place everybody on t.he com to be regretted that this question should mission. He ventured to think that when be brought up night after night. No good the Minister entered upon the task of ap could possibly result from this continual pointing this commission he had but one reference to the composition of the com object in view, and that was to get the mission. The board had been sitting for most reliable information that could be several days, and the evidence they had obtained, and whether the miners were taken had been made public. He believed satisfied with the result of the inquiry or that in a few clays the report, as far as not they would be obliged to admit that the cause of the late explosion was con everything had been done openly and above cerned, would be completed. Whatever board, and that every effort had been made might be thought as to the miners not to arrive at the truth. There appeared to being sufficiently represented on the com be a no~ion that Government officials were mission, this was no time to raise such a to be held responsible for all accidents that question. He indorsed to a great extent occurred in collie1·ies. He trusted that the remarks of the hon. member for The whatever the Minister might deem it his Upper Hunter. The Minister had, in his duty to do in the future in protecting life opinion, selected men with whom the and property he would never take any miners themselves in their calmer moments step that would relieve the proprietors would not find fault. Mr. Croudace and and workmen of their fair share of respon he were not friends; but that was no sibility. If a hundred men were working in reason why he should deny to·this gentle a mine containing gas, the lives of ninety man the great ability which he knew he nine would be dependent upon the care possessed. Dr. Robertson was the best lessness, or otherwise, of the hundredth man that could be found in New South man, and if accidents were to be prevented Wales for an inquiry of this kind. He both the proprietors and workmen must possessed both practical and theoretical be held jointly responsible. How would knowledge of the subject, and as a scientist, it be possible for a representative of the he was the best man he had met in the Crown to be responsible for the blunders colony. or wrong-doing of a workman i He might Mr. l\foELHONE : Is he a doctor of visit a colliery and find everything in pro medicine 1 per order, and perfectly safe ; but directly Mr. FLETCHER said that he was a his back was turned an act of carelessness doctor of medicine, and a civil engineer, and might bring about a serious accident. 5 0 f#'·~•h7 !. 1594: [ASSEMBLY. J Bulli Colliery Commission. vV ere the Government to keep an inspec Mr. MELVILLE : The Minister was tor of collieries in every bord, a man attempting to shelter himself behind a to go through the mines every morning ~ subterfuge, and Mr. Jones was not ap An army of inspectors would be required pointed until he mentioned his name on to carry out such an inspection. Most a motion for adjournment. intelligent miners were fully alive to this . Mr. ABIGAIL : He was appointed before fact. He was not attempting to justify the hon. member mentioned him ! the action of the Minister in not placing Mr. MELVILLE : The hon. gentleman more miners on the commission. He knows his statement is not in keeping with would like to see a larger number of fact. • miners on the commission, but so far as Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman is selecting experts was concerned he did not · not in order in stating that the Minister know where the Minister could have gone made an assertion which he knew was not to get better men. Fault was found with correct. I must ask the hon. member to Mr. Neilson. A more humane manager withdraw the statement. in the interests of the miners could not Mr. MELVILLE : I beg pardon. I be found in New South ·wales. It was said the statement was not in keeping with not the case that he was in the employ of fact. the Bulli Company, and he was only there Mr. SPEAKER : That is the same thing. as an expert to decide a dispute with re I took the hon. member to say that the ference to a lease. If he were a minor or Minister for Mines made a statement, manager in the Bulli colliery he would be knowing that it was not in accordance perfectly satisfied with Mr. Neilson's de with fact. cision. Even if the Minister, in the trying Mr. MELVILLE would withdraw that circumstances in which he had been placed, statement, and would say that the Minis had made a mistake in not placing a suffi ter's statement was not in accordance with cient number of miners on the commission, the statement in the public press. it was due to him to say that he had done Mr. GARRETT : \Vhat have we got to his best under the circumstances. do with that ~ Mr. MELVILLE, in reply, said he had M' r. MELVILLE : No one knew better t10t discussed the prohabilities of the ver how to pull the wires with the newspapers ·• dict or the capabilities of the commis than the Minister for Lands. Not a word sioners. His object had been in the first was said about Mr. Jones being on the place to get information in reference to commission until after the debate on the the appointment of Mr. Croudace. ·The adjournment of the House. The Ministe1· Minister had received great sympathy from for Mines bad been compelled by public those whose interests in the past in coal opinion to place three miners upon the mines were certainly on the same lines commission. He was perfectly satisfied as some of the persons a,ppointed to the that the Minister for Mines had done his commission. best, according to bis ability ; but it was M:r. FLETCHER : I wish my interests miserably poor ability. If this motion fo1· adjournment had done no other good, it were ten times greater ! had had the effect of reconciling the hon. Mr. MEL VILLE said the hon. member member for The Mur,.rumbidgee and the for Newcastle knew that Mr. Neilson was hon. member for The Upper Hunter. one of his best friends, and no one could Hitherto the hon. member for The Upper question his- qualificn,tions. But he had Hunter. could see no good in the hon. already given his opinion as an expert, and member. for The Murrumbidgee_; but. on therefore he should not have been on the this occasion they both agreed in praising commission. At first the commission had Mr. Croudace. He did not wish to make not a single miner uppn it. any personal application ; but there was nir. ABIGAIL : There ·were two miners an old adage that "when rogues fell out, upon it! honest people got their own." No doubt Mr. MELVILLE : Will the Minister there would soon be a falling out, and name them~ then we would hear all about this matter. Mr. ABIGAIL : Mr. Jones and Mr. It was quite true that great public sym Young. pathy had been shown ; but that had been [ Jfr. Fletcher. Customs Duties Bill. (18 ]\fAy, 1887.J c_u.stoms Duties Bill. 1595 called forth by the disaster, and not by duty, especially the beer duty, of which our the composition of this commission. The Treasurer had made so much. l\Iinister for l\Iines might have saved a Mr. O'CONNOR: But the treasurer was great deal of time if he had on the first Sir Julius Vogel ! occasion given the information which he Mr. SEE: Sir Julius Vogel, the pre had given to-night as to the reasons for sent treasurer, is looked upon as a most Mr. Croudace's appointment. Those rea eminent financier. sons had at last been extorted from him, · Mr. Mcl\hLLAN : A very eminent finan and the community now ~new that Mr. cier ! Croudacc was placed on the commission Mr. SEE said it would be impossible for by back-stairs influence. a treasurer to carry his proposals without Question resolved in the negative. a majority, therefore the majority were responsible for his proposals. His hon. CUSTO:MS DUTIES BILL. friend, Mr. McMillan, could not disassoci In Committee: ate himself from these proposals. Some day the hon. gentleman might say, " I did Clause I. This act may be cited as the Cus toms Duties Act of 1887 and shall be taken to not do it," but in effect he was doing it. have come into operation on the thirtieth d:ty of Mr. McMILLAN : The hon. member is ?.larch one thousand eight hundred and eighty arguing as to the ability of Sir Julius Vogel! seven. l\Ir. SEE said he would not dispute ~fr. SEE feared that there was very whether Sir Julius Vogel was an eminent little good in discussing the question of financier or not; but he would ask how it repealing the ad vcilorem duties in a was that New Zealand had to resort to Committee which appeared to be as ex taxation 1 The answer which he supposed hau::;ted as the present one. would apply to our own colony was that Mr. BuRNS : I would suggest to ·my they really wanted money to carry on the hon. friend that it would be more con government. We knew that they had venient to allow this clause, which is really gone in extensively for railway coustruc the title of the bill, to pass, and to discuss tion, and public works, and that they were the question of acl valorem duties on compelled to resort to taxation in order clause 4. to carry on the business of government. Mr. SEE : I am going to make a few Their treasurer went to the Custom other remarks ! house, as his hon. friend would have to do Mr. BuuNs : I have no objection to the if he were in office in two or three years' discussion taking place now, but I think time, and instead of remitting duties, he it would lie more convenient to take it on would have to increase them, and instead clause 4. of having a few items in the tariff, he Mr. SEE did not know that it made would have to tax all round. ·why should much difference at which particular stage not the Treasurer tax all round 1 The the discussion took place. He should not hon. gentleman proposed with one sweep make a second speech on the subject. He of the pen to reduce the number of articles would not take up the time of the Com from 180 to 36-an act which the hon. mittee very long. The Colonial Treasurer 'member looked upon as a first-class piece told the House last night that he proposed of financing. It was a matter of opinion to reduce the number of items in the whether it was so or not. He would call tariff from 180 to 36. He believed that attention to some of the items which the· the time was coming-it did not appear to hon. gentleman proposed to remit. It was have arrived yet-when the Treasurer of simply a question of opinion whether it this colony would have to tax almost was better to tax whiskey, or beer, or everything which was imported. At the brandy, or put an extra 3d. on tobacco, present moment nearly every Australian than to tax the items he would enumerate. treasurer was glad to tax anything and According to the last Statistical Register, every thing. For example, the treasurer we imported £39,000 worth of bnrnhware, of New Zealand-a colony with soil as and £56,000 worth of cutlery in 1886. good and climate in some respects superior M:ind, the great object of the fiscal pro to ours, was glad to have acl valorem duties, posals was to reduce the number of tax specific duties, and almost every kind of able articles, and to squeeze the working 1596 Cuatoms Duties BiU. GASSEMBLY.l Customs Ditties Bill. man as little as possible, and ·as a set-off Mr. BURNS : I would suggest to my against that we were promise .assuredly, the remarks of the hon. mem operation for three years. If he could not ber must be held to be in order. give reasons for that, he could advance no Mr. GARVAN asked if the Chairman reasons at all. He maintained that it wa.s ruled definitely that the hon. member for perfectly competent for him to advance Grafton was not in order in making the any reasons that would he intelligible in speech which he desired to make i· If so, advocating the postponmuent of the clay he should submit an amendment. on which the bill was to come into force. The CrrAIRMAJf : Whilst that amend The CHAIRMAN: I think it must be ob ment would be in order, it would not be vious to hon. members tha.t in the interest· competent to discuss what is contained in of legitimate discussion it is impossible on the schedule and the other clauses of the C\'ery clause of the bill to anticipate what . bill. must be the object of discussion at a future· l\fr. BuRNS : There is no desire on the stage. The hon. member is p~rfectly in_ part of the Goverp.ment to limit debate; order in moving that the words "eighty but if the hon. member does move an seven" be omitted with a view to the in amendment, he will not be able to discuss sertion of the word "ninety"; but be is. . ·the whole question on what, after all, will not in order in discussing the items which ·be only a technical point. If he allows must be submitted to the Committee at a this clause to pass, when we come to future stage. clauses 2 and 4 he will be able to discuss Mr. GARVAN asked if he was to under the whole question. · • stand that he could only move an amend The CHAIRMAN : I may tell the Com ment, but could not give the reasons that. mittee that this debate is very irregular, induced l1im to do so 7 -....;: and the hon. member in possession of the The CnAIR~IAN : I hardly think I said'. . Chair is the hon. member for Grafton. If that. The hon. member has a perfect he wishes to address himself to the clause right to give his reasons within the fair before the Committee, he will be perfectly limits of debate ; but he is not justified,.. in order: whilst giving his reasons, in discussing· · Mr. SEE said he had no desire to con those items whieh appear in the schedule, tinue his remarks. and will be the subject of discussion here Mr. GA.RV A.N moved: after. . · That the word~ " eighty-seven " be omitted Mr. GARVA.J.'< said all he could say was · with the view of inserting in lieu thereof the that it was a most undue and unwarrant word "ninety." able limitation of his-right to give reasons. One of his reasous for wishing to postpone The CnAIR~IAN : I think it is hardly the operation of the bill was that its effoct fair for the hon. mem bcr to use those would be to extinguish some industries words towards the Chair. I have no wish which had already sprung up under our to deprive the hon. member of that liberty present Customs law. There was a duty of which is his undoubted right. If he dis l!d. pet· lb. upon candles. Large sums of agrees with my opinion, ho can take the money had been spent in the production usual course. of these articles, and it would be utterly Mr. GARVA.N regretted that he was ·unreasonable so soon to terminate a law forced into the course which he must take, that had brought the industry into exist-· purely in the interests of legitimate debate. ·ence. \Vas it not the duty of the legisla The Chairman of Committees was seeking ture to deal kindly with those who had to place a most unnecessary limitation ·entered upon an enterprise of this kind, upon his right of speech, and he should and were employing the labour of the move that the Committee dissent from his country~ ruling. The point of order that he wished i Mr. REID rose to a point of order. He to be referred to Mr. Speaker was in" the .. submitted that the hon. member was re following terms :- ferring to the items in schedule A., and I having moved that the da,te of commence that he could not disctiss the duty on ment of this act be amended so as to bring it candles while this clause was under con into operation in 1890, and in support of my amendment I was pointing out that the inuustry sideration. of candle-making which had :ieen brought into Mr. GARVAN said he was submitting operation by the duty imposed last year would reasons why this law sh.ould not coll1:e into be materially injured by the earlier adoption ·o . ' 1598 Customs .Diities Bill. [ASSEMBLY. J Citstoms Duties Bill. a reduced tariff, as appears by schedule A to Mr. \VALL submitted that the hon'. mem· proposed bill, the Chairman ruled that I .was ber was not discussing the item, but was not in order in making reference to any item merely discussing, the question as to the contained in schedule A. period when the duties should be repealed. He moved: . That the Chairman leave the chair, and report Mr. GARRETT said that the point now the point of order to Mr. ~peaker, and ask leave was not what the hon. member for Eden to sit again after the pomt of order hacl been was discussing, but whether the point of decided. ordor should be referred to Mr. Speaker. 1\1r. REID s Mr. GARVAN said he thought he had to allow any one who listened to the debate stated the circumstances as clearly as pos to state it for him. sible. l\fr. BURNS: It is for the hon. member Mr. GAURETT hoped that the Committee, to do that. That is not a fair statement if it desired to perform the duty intrusted of the ruling. to it, would not entertain the motion. Mr. GAUVAN said that in that case he The hon. member for Eden was taking a did not understand the English language. most extreme, unusual, and unparliamen It would have been better to have allowed tary course in endeavouring to discuss the the dehate to continue, instead of inter whole principles of a bill on a merely for posing this infraction of the liberty of mal clause, and his only purpoee was to speech. add to the waste of time to which he had The CrrArnMAN : I cannot allow the hon. contributed· a great deal of late. -member to say that there has been any l\fr. GARVAN: You are not justified in undue infraction of the liberty of speech. saying so ! The hon. member for Grafton was address• Mr. GARUETT-: The duty of the Com ing the Committee in respectful terms, mittee was to consider the bill in detail. certainly; but I felt it my duty to point Every point involved was contained in the ont to him-I hope I did so in respectful separate clauses, not the whole of it in terms-that he was making his remarks each clause. The amendment which the at the wrong stage. There has been no in hon. member for Eden proposed to move fraction of the liberty of debate. I think would be tantamount to defeating the bill. that it is due to me that when a point of It was in no way relevant to the clause orde\· is raised it ought to be fairly stated, .before the Committee, because the effect and I would point out to the hon. member "Of it would be to defeat the bill, and that for Eden that he says in his motion to was a course which ought to be taken at a refer the point to Mr. Speaker : prior stage, or could be taken at a subse In support of my amendment I was pointing quent stage. The hon. member wanted to out that the industry of candle-making, which take some action with regard to the duty had been brought into operation by the duty imposed last year, would be materially injured. on candles, and to attempt to do it in this surreptitious wn,y was not creditable to the I do not think that I have a right to report hon. member's knowledge of parliamentary that which, absolutely, is not a fact, as the rule-he was not doing justice to the prin candle manufacturing industry existed ciples of which he assumed the position of before last year. It might have been advocate. It would be adding to the waste stated that the industry was encouraged of time to .refer the matter to Mr. Speaker. by the duty imposed last year. That is Question-That the point of order be not a point of order, which ought to be referred to Mr. Speaker--proposed. stated from this Chair to the House. How· Mr. REID : The ruling is not correctly ever, if hon. members will allow me, I stated in the question. have no objection to put the question now. The CrrArn~IAX : What I have objected Question-That I do now leave the to is the discussion of an item in the sche chair, report a point of order to Mr. dule which must be submitted hereafter. Speaker, and ask leave to sit again when Mr. GARVAN said that undoubtedly he the point of order is decided-put. The alluded to one of the items in the schedule; Committee divided : but simply as an illustration in favour of Ayes, 22; noes, 47; majority, 25. his amendment. AYES. Mr. BURNS hoped that the Committee . Dibbs, G. R. Melville, N. would not agree to the motion to refer the Ewing, T. T. O'Sullivan, E. \V. point of order. The question, as proposed, Fletcher, J. See, J. did not fairly indicate the point at issue. Gale, J. Toohey, J. M. Garrard, J. Vaughn, R. M. He was sure that if the matter was referred Garvan, J. P. Walker, T. to Mr. Speaker he would rule that the hon. Gormly, J. ·wan, w. C. member had no right on this clause to de Gould, A. J. "\Vant, J. H. .bate any item in the tariff. Hassan, T. H . Hayes, J. Tellers, Mr. GAUVAN said -that if he had not •Tones, T. Chanter, J. M . stated the ruling correctly he was willing Lyne, vV. J. Creer, J. 1600 Custonis Duties Bill. [ASSEMBLY. J Cit,Sto"ms Diit·i.:.s Bill. NOES. calendar, no iniquity, and no corruption Abigail, F. Kethel, A. that could not be covered by legislation o.£ A. Allen, A. Lee, C. this character. He remembered hearing lib. Ball, E. J. Lees, S. E. Brown, H. H. McElhone, J. speech from the late Sir James Martin on Burns, J. F. l\foFarlane, J. this very subject; and with this speech Carruthers, J. H, Mc.Millan, vV. ringing in his ears, he would .call for a Clarke, H. Moore, S. \V. division on a clause contain-ing such a Clarke, "\V. O'Connor, D. Cooke, H. H. Parkes, Sir Henry .proposal. Crouch, F. G. Penzer, J. l\fr. 1\1.EL VILLE asked why the bill Dangar, T. G. G. Reid, G. H. could not come into operation at some Davis, \V. L. Ross, Dr. A. future date 1 Surely the Chamber of Com Farnell, Frank ·Schey, \V. F. Farnell, J. S. Smith, Frank J. merce and the Free-trade League had been Garrett, T. Stephen, \V. sufficiently considered already 1 Surely Hawken, N. Stevenson, R. the Treasurer was not going to hand ·over Hawthorne, J. S. Sntherland, J. a refnnd of revenue to the mercantile com Henson, \V, Teece, \V. 1 Holborow, \V. H. "\Vilkinson, Dr. V\7• C. mµnity in addition to repealing the duties Hutchison, A. "\~'ithers, G. If so, the hon. gentleman should inform Haynes, J. Wise, B. R. the Committee whether or not he made Inglis, J. Telle-rs, this proposal at the instance of Mr. Puls Ives, I.E. Garland, C. L. Kelly, J.E. Neild, J.C. for Ciistoms Ditties Bill. [18 MAY, 1887.] Citstoms Ditties Bill. lGOl such a state of excitement in his desfre to for South Sydney, and I ask the hon. rush this bill through that it was useless member t-o withdraw the words. _to expect him to listen to any suggestionl!! Mr. MELVILLE said that if the Chair unless they came from Mr. Pulsford. The man ruled upon the statement of the hon. . best thing we could do would be to shut member for South Sydney that he had up the Parliament altogether, and let the used these words, in obedience to the Free-trade League govern the country. All ruling he would withdraw the words. He these matters were arrn.nged before they submitted that the T1·easurer was only ad were proposed by the Government. He hering to this clause upon instructions re protested against the government of the ceived-he presu_med secretly-that this count1·y being carried on by a clique of refund was required to make up the £700 irresponsible individuals, who did not pay which some persons spent when wanted their debts, and who had to send the hon. outside the House. The outside public member for South Sydney, Mr. Wise, were _pretty_ well convinced that it was round with the'hat. ·who was to benefit not Parliament that ruled the country, by the refund 1 Would the hon. member but the Free·trade League and the Cham for East Sydney, Mr. McMillan, tell the ber of Commerce. He did not know how House how much his firm would benefit much the Chinese Commissioners might by the refund 1 '\V ould the wise-paid agent have had to do with this matter, or how of the merchants of Sydney tell how much much the rich individuals who lately used of Lis salary was to come out of this re the Government launch had to do with it. fund 1 He supposed the best thing to do was to Mr. "WISE desired to know, as a point let the Government go headlong to ruin. of order, if an hon. member, even the hon. Mr. VAUGHN wonld like to know if member for Northumberland, was entitled it was the intention to put on thel:ie to say of another hon. member what was duties 1 absolutely false, that he had been paid by Mr. BURNS : The clause under con any person or any class in connection with sideration has no reference to any refund matters with which he might have to deal of duties. It is only the short title of the in this House 1 bill. . The CHAIRMAN : The hon. member is -1\fr. TOOHEY said that surely the certainly out of order and must withdrr.w Treasiirer could not mean what Le said. the expression that an hon. member had If the bill was to come into operation on been paid for his agency in any way. the 30th l\farch there would necessarily be l\:Ir. MELVILLE did not say he had been a refund of duties. paid! l\fr. O'SULLIVAN said t.hat as there The CHAIRMAN : :\Iy desire is to see the seemed to be a doubt in the mind of the discussion go on amicably, and I hope that Treasurer he ought to postpone the clause hon. gentleman will accept my opinion and refer it to the Attorney-General for and withdraw the words without further his opinion. . discussion. Mr. GARVAN contended that if there Mr. MELVILLE wanted to know what was any meaning at all in the clause there the words were which he had to with must be a refund. Unless it was abso draw 1 lutely necessary for the purposes of jus HoN. MEllIBERS : Paid agent l tice he would recommend the Treasurer Mr. MELVILLE did not say paid agent. not to embody in the net the unsound When he 'knew what the words were ·he principle of retrospective legislation. would withdraw them: Mr. GARRARD said he wished t<> The CHAIR~iAN: The hon. member for move the omission of the word " seven." South Sydney, as a point of order, said The CHAmMAN : That motion cannot that the hon. member for Northumber now be moved, as the Committee has land had spoken of him as a paid agent, already decided that the compound word and asked if those words were in order. " eighty-seven" shall stand part of the J; have no wish to impute to the hon. clause. Any further amendment must take member for Northumberland any words the shape of an· addition to the clause. which he did not use ; but I was under Mr. LYNE wished to kno"~ from the . the same impression as the hon. men1ber Colonial Treasurer if the effect of this 1602 Customs Ditties Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Citstoms Duties Bill. clause would be to repeal to a certain ex hon .. gentleman the folly of the course he tent the existing act and to bring the bill was pursuing. Clause 3 provided for the into operation on a date which was two repeal of the existing act, clause 1 fixed months back i the date on which the bill was to come Mr. EWING wished to know if the into operation, consequently there must Colonial Treasurer was prepared to assure be a refund of duties. This clause would the Committee that no refunds would be virtually decide the main question, for on made i clause 3, he submitted, we could not alter Mr. BURNS : This clause has no con the date on which the bill was to come nection with the question of refunds. I into operation. He would state, in reply have never known a committee to debate to the Colonial Treasurer, that the beer the title of a bill before in this manner. duty had been collected only recently, and It seems to me that hon. members opposite he had yet to learn whether the tobacco only wish to waste time. duties were being imposed at all. vVe Mr. GARVAN said that he could put wanted a straightforward explanation with no other construction on the clause than respect to this clause. Did the hon. gentle that it was proposed to grant refunds. It man intend to refund the duties i was something more than the title we had Mr. GARRETT : vVhat particular duties to consider. He wished to know why the is the hon. member referring to~ bill was to be brought into operation on l\ir. l\1EL VILLE : Candles. the 30th March 1 It was the clear duty lVIr. DrnBs ---- of the Colonial Treasurer to explain the 1\fr. GARRET!': No one knows better meaning of this unusual provision. than the hon. member for The Murrum l\fr. BURNS : I desire to explain that bidgee does that there will not be a refund we are taking, in regard to this bill, the on candles ! course which has always been taken with Mr. MELVILLE submitted that the bills of this kind. The financial state clause :fixed not only the title. but also the ment was made on the 30th March, and date on which the bill was to come into from that time forward the operation of operation. If it dealt with simply the this bill commenced. The Government at title, then the Colonial Treasurer would once commenced to collect the duties in have been justified in charging us with ob accordance with my statement, which struction. statement was as clear as to the intentions Mr. GARRETT said there was not a of the Government as it could be. Any single article on which any refund of duty question as to the revision of dnties paid in would have to be made. He had never excess of the provisions 'of this bill should known such a dismal and purposeless be discussed afterwards. This clause has waste of time as that which had taken no connection with that question ; it pro place to-night. On previous occasions vides simply that the law shall take effect when obstruction had been resorted to, from a certain elate. It shows the folly there had been somFJ reason for it or some . of discussing this question at all. It is humour in it ; hut there was neither sense most unusual to debate the title of a bill. nor reason in the obstruction to this bill. It is the desire of the Opposition not to There would be no necessity for any re elicit information, but to waste time. fund of duty collected on candles, because lVlr. MELVILLE : That is not correct! the duty had been reduced from l!d. to lVIr. BURNS: Some hon. members no ld. from the date that the new tariff was • doubt believe that they are entitled to proposed. discuss the main question on this clause; HoN. MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! but others wish simply to waste time. Mr. GARRETT contended that the Mr. MELVILLE: That is not correct! question of refunds did not, at any rate, Mr. BURNS: I have an opinion on arise under this clause. Did the hon. that point. I would point out to hon. member for The Murrumbidgee ever hear members that the question of refunds and of such a question being brought up be of the change of duties may be discussed fore in connection with a bill of this on clauses 2, 3, and 4. kind~ Mr. MELVILLE said that the Opposi Mr. DIBBS said that the hon. member tion had been endeavouring to show the for Camden would probably be enlight- [Mr. IAJne. ' Custonis Duties Bill. [18 MAY, 1887. J Ciistoms Ditties Bill. 1603 ened, in the course of this debate, on a Government would have to refund the matter which, as an old politician, he duty paid under the old tariff~ but not ought to know a great deal more about chargeable under the 11ew tariff. He than he did. The hon. member onght to would suggest to the Colonial Treasurer have known that the Government could, ac that he shonld give an undertaking that cording to law, levy no additional duties, an amendment providing for the refund except where, as in the case of spirits, would be introduced in either the 3rd or there was an existing duty, which was in the 4th clause. Unless such an under creased. They could then collect the in taking were given, he should have con creased duties from the time of the de siderable doubt as to voting for the 1st livery of the :financial statement, and ask clause. The. objection as to the clause for an indemnity afterwards. The Go being retrospective had no force what vernment were collecting on candles a cer ever. The financial statement was made tain amount of duty, which, if the bill on the 30th of March, from which date it passed, would have to be refunded. was necessary to collect certain duties, Mr. BURNS : I decline to Unless such a clause was inserted making collect those duties at once; and we· are the commencement of the bill to date from obliged to make the bill operative from ·an earlier period than its passing, the duty that date, so as to include all the duties ·would be evaded: People knowing the collected. Unless this were done the re duty that was to oe imposed would get in venue would be defrauded. The plan we large stocks in order to escape payment. have adopted is the customary one in all Mr. TooREY : What about a refund 1 such cases; and there is no question of Mr. WISE said that the question of ex post facto legislation. refunds could be considered in connection Mr. FLETCHER said every hon. mem with· clauses 3 and 4. Hon. members l::er must see the necessity of a clause 9f . would see that the old tariff was to con this character. In the case of duties how tinue in force until the. 30th September, fixed at a lower rate than that fixed in with the exception of items mentioned in the repealed act, there must be a date schedule A, which was simply an excerpt from which a refund would have to be from the old tariff, with the exception of ·made. But there was nothing unreason -two or three items. able in asking the Treasurer to sn,y what Mr. MELVILLE said that the hon. be intended to do with regard to the over and learned member for South Sydney charged rates collected since l(he date men ·has proved the necessity for what was tioned. asked for in the first instance. All that lHr. DIBBS suggested that the Trea had been asked for was some explanation surer should promise that before the bill , as to the refunds. , There was no justifi passed through Committee he would make cation for charging hon. members on the a statement with regard to any refund Opposition side with obstruction. that might he necessary. If the hon. gen Mr. NEILD said that there was a tleman would do this the clause would no great. d'eal of force in the contention of doubt pass. hon. members opposite, but they would 1\fr. BURNS : Ample provision is made have. ample opportunity to deal with the in clause 4 particularly. I intend to question in subsequent clauses. move an amendment wlien we come to Mr. TOOHEY said that if duties were that clause which will proYide for every removed by the Committee, thPre must be possible contingency under the bill. It a refund of the amounts which had been will deal with any possible refunds. paid. · Clause agreed to. Mr. WISE : This clause does not deal Progress reported. with refunds ! Mr. TOOHEY sa1d that it removed ex SYDNEY CORPORATION ACT isting duties, and created a new state of AMENDMENT BILL. things. He objected to retrospective legis Resolved (on motion by Mr. O'CONNOR): lation on principle. (1.) That a committee be appointed to ex amine the Journal.s of the Legislati,·e Council Mr. BURNS : When referring to ob with relation to any proceedings upon the struction, I point distinctly to two or three Sydney Corporation Act Amendment Bill, and _hon. members who threatened to stone to make report thereof to the House. wall the bill. (2.) That such committee consist of Sir Henry Parkes, l\Ir. Burns, Mr. J. P. Abbott, Mr. Mr. TooIIEY: I have not heard such a McElhone, Mr. Brunker, Mr. Street, Mr. threat! Chapman, Mr. Fletcher, and the mover. J\fr. BURNS : I am not i·eferring to the hon. member, or to the hon. member RETURN OF LAND REVENUE. for Eden, Mr. Garvan. Ordered (on motion by l\fr. HASSALL): HoN. ME~IBERS: Name! That there be laid upon the table of this Mr. BURNS: Let hon. members.whom House, a return showing : the cap.fits put it on. Clause 1 is simply· ( 1.) The revenue deri \'eel from all lands sold, including town iillotments, since 1861, in the the short title, and enacts that the bill districts of "\Varialda, Bingern, and Moree. shall come into operation on a date which (2.) The revenue from payments on condi we were compelled to fix in order to protect tional purchase s_elections, pre-leases, an Bridge at N arrandera. (18 l\'lAv, 1887.] Divorce "Extension Bill. 1605 (4.) The revenue from mineral leases, mineral Sir HENRY PARKES, in reply: I licenses, miners' rights, and business licenses, hardly understand the nomenclature of since said date, in same districts. the hon. member. I would rather· call BRIDGE AT NARRANDERA. them good order resolutions than clotiire Motion (by Mr. DmBs) proposed: resolutions.. It is my intention to proceed That this House will, on Friday week, resoh'e with the motion which stands in my name itself into a Committee of the ·whole to con· to-morrow. sider the following"resolutions :- J\fr. DIBBS : Will my hon. friend Jay (1.) That, in the_ opinion of this House, a the celebrated dinner on the table to traffic bridge should be built across the Mnr· rumbidgee, at Narrandera. . morrow~ (2.) That \he foregoing r~sol~tion be com· Question resolved in the affirmative. municated by address to his Excellency the House adjourned at 12·28 a.m. (Thursday), Governor. Sir HENRY PARKES : I desire to say that. in consenting to the hon. gentle man going into Committee we in no way bind ourselves to the motion. 1.Leyislatibe _.,