Fifh Session, 41st Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES (HANSARD)

Monday, July 20, 2020 Afernoon Sitting Issue No. 343

THE HONOURABLE DARRYL PLECAS, SPEAKER

ISSN 1499-2175 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC

Fifth Session, 41st Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Darryl Plecas

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Attorney General...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens’ Services...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ...... Hon. Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy...... Hon. Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ...... Hon. Minister of Health ...... Hon. Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Economic Development and Competitiveness...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Minister of State for Trade...... Hon. Minister of Labour ...... Hon. Minister of Mental Health and Addictions...... Hon. Minister of Municipal Afairs and Housing...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Ofcial Opposition...... , QC Leader of the Tird Party ...... Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Simon Gibson Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel...... Seunghee Suzie Seo Clerk Assistant, Parliamentary Services...... Artour Sogomonian Clerk Assistant, Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ...... Susan Sourial Senior Research Analyst...... Jennifer Arril Senior Research Analyst...... Karan Riarh Acting Sergeant-at-Arms...... Greg Nelson ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Penticton Abbotsford-Mission...... Simon Gibson Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton ...... Hon. Darryl Plecas Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Michael de Jong, QC Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Boundary-Similkameen...... Linda Larson Begg, Garry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Guildford Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Hon. Anne Kang Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Katrina Chen Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Donna Barnett Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... –West End ...... Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Chilliwack ...... John Martin Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack-Kent ...... Laurie Troness Chow, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fraserview Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Joan Isaacs Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville ...... Hon. Selina Robinson Conroy, Hon. Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Courtenay-Comox...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Darcy, Hon. Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley ...... Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... ...... de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West ...... Dean, Mitzi (NDP)...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Esquimalt-Metchosin ...... D’Eith, Bob (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola ...... Dix, Hon. Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Tompson ...... Donaldson, Hon. Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Tompson...... Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission ...... Steve Tomson Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam ...... Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay East...... Foster, Eric (BC Liberal)...... Vernon-Monashee Kootenay West...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Fraser, Hon. Scott (NDP) ...... Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Langford–Juan de Fuca ...... Hon. John Horgan Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ...... Cowichan Valley Langley ...... Mary Polak Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Langley East...... Glumac, Rick (NDP)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Maple Ridge–Mission...... Bob D’Eith Heyman, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Hon. Lisa Beare Horgan, Hon. John (NDP) ...... Langford–Juan de Fuca Mid Island–Pacifc Rim...... Hon. Scott Fraser Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Nanaimo...... Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... James, Hon. Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Nechako Lakes...... Johal, Jas (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Queensborough Nelson-Creston ...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)...... Delta North New Westminster...... Hon. Judy Darcy Kang, Hon. Anne (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake North Coast ...... Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)...... Shuswap North Island...... Hon. Claire Trevena Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Tornthwaite Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ...... Courtenay-Comox Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Dr. Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Parksville-Qualicum...... Michelle Stilwell Ma, Bowinn (NDP)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Peace River North ...... Malcolmson, Sheila (NDP) ...... Nanaimo Peace River South ...... Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Penticton ...... Martin, John (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack Port Coquitlam...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–North Tompson Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Mungall, Hon. Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie...... Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount ...... Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)...... Saanich North and the Islands ...... Paton, Ian (BC Liberal)...... Delta South Richmond-Queensborough...... Jas Johal Plecas, Hon. Darryl (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South ...... Linda Reid Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston ...... John Yap Popham, Hon. Lana (NDP)...... Saanich North and the Islands ...... Adam Olsen Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South ...... Hon. Lana Popham Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Shuswap...... Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond South Centre Skeena...... Rice, Jennifer (NDP)...... North Coast Stikine...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Robinson, Hon. Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Marvin Hunt Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)...... Skeena Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Routledge, Janet (NDP)...... Burnaby North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Guildford...... Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton...... Hon. Harry Bains Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Surrey-Panorama ...... Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey South ...... Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley ...... Hon. Bruce Ralston Sims, Jinny (NDP)...... Surrey-Panorama Surrey–White Rock ...... Tracy Redies Singh, Rachna (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. George Heyman Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna West Vancouver–False Creek...... Sam Sullivan Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fraserview...... Hon. George Chow Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–South Tompson Vancouver-Hastings ...... Hon. Shane Simpson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Kensington...... Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kingsway...... Hon. Adrian Dix Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Langara...... Michael Lee Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Hon. Melanie Mark Tomson, Steve (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Point Grey ...... Hon. David Eby, QC Tornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver-Quilchena...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Troness, Laurie (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack-Kent Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vernon-Monashee ...... Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond North Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Hon. Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake...... Hon. Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano...... Ralph Sultan Yap, John (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky......

Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; Independent 2; BC Green Party 2

CONTENTS

Monday, July 20, 2020 Afernoon Sitting Page

Routine Business

Tributes ...... 12083 Hugh Fraser S. Sullivan

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 12083 North Shore community response to COVID-19 B. Ma Tristen Chernove T. Shypitka Racist incidents on Sunshine Coast and legacy of systemic racism N. Simons White Rock Pride Society T. Redies Investment in Nanaimo social services S. Malcolmson Outdoor recreation safety R. Sultan

Oral Questions...... 12085 Government action on opioid crisis and addiction issues A. Wilkinson Hon. J. Horgan J. Tornthwaite Hon. J. Darcy Protection of old-growth forests and transition support for forest-dependent communities A. Olsen Hon. D. Donaldson Supportive housing facilities and services and community safety T. Stone Hon. S. Robinson J. Johal J. Isaacs

Tabling Documents...... 12090 Report pursuant to the COVID-19 Related Measures Act regarding Ministerial Order M220/2020

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills ...... 12090 Bill 18 — Economic Stabilization (COVID-19) Act (continued) S. Bond S. Furstenau S. Cadieux Hon. C. James Bill 23 — Workers Compensation Amendment Act, 2020 Hon. H. Bains J. Martin G. Kyllo M. Lee B. Stewart Hon. H. Bains

Committee of the Whole House...... 12108 Bill 6 — Mines Amendment Act, 2020 T. Shypitka Hon. B. Ralston S. Furstenau

12083

MONDAY, JULY 20, 2020 designed personal protective equipment, printing them on their workshop flled with 3D printers, and to donate Te House met at 1:35 p.m. reusable face shields to local hospitals. James Lester runs a distillery in North Vancouver called [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] the Sons of Vancouver. He immediately recognized that a shortage of hand sanitizer in North Vancouver was afect- Routine Business ing care facilities and frst responders and reached out to my ofce in March to ofer his services. Tributes Along with some quick footwork by the Attorney Gen- eral to allow distilleries to produce sanitation-grade alco- HUGH FRASER hol, Sons of Vancouver was not just producing hand san- itizer but giving it away for free to members of the public S. Sullivan: With us today is Lorae Farrell. She and Brit- and organizations across the region. Tey also partnered ish Columbia recently lost an incredible human being. with local grocers to sell bottles of hand sanitizer to raise Hugh Fraser was one of the most capable and exciting money for Lions Gate Hospital. Te best part of it all? Tey musicians, a master of many instruments, Canadian also sell vodka. Trombonist of the Year fve times. He was magical when Tese are just two of countless examples, countless stor- playing with others, both challenging and supporting ies of people who have been stepping up to help their them. He formed the VEZI jazz improvisation cooperat- neighbours in North Vancouver and across British Col- ive, then the Hugh Fraser Quintet, winning international umbia. I hope that the House will join me in once again acclaim, including two Junos. thanking them all for their leadership. Te Hugh Fraser International Jazz Orchestra Work- shop was presented around the world. He was the head of TRISTEN CHERNOVE the jazz program at the Banf Centre of Fine Arts. He has several recordings and compositions still to be released. T. Shypitka: Mild-mannered president and CEO of His presence will remain with us. Elevate Airports at the Canadian Rockies International I know this House will join me in thanking and hon- Airport Tristen Chernove has a superhero alter ego. ouring Hugh Fraser for a life of spreading peace and love Among other things, Tristen is a 2016 triple Paralympic through music. medallist and silver-medal winner at the para-cycling track world championships in February. Statements Te summer Paralympic Games in Tokyo this year have (Standing Order 25B) been postponed due to COVID-19. So Tristen, a Cran- brook resident, is going to tackle a challenge a little closer NORTH SHORE COMMUNITY RESPONSE to home, known as the B.C. Epic 1000. Tristen is all too TO COVID-19 familiar with the Olympic oval racetrack, but this epic journey is something he has never seen before. B. Ma: During the most difcult weeks of the coronavir- [1:40 p.m.] us-induced state of emergency in British Columbia, a per- Te B.C. Epic 1000 is a 1,066 kilometre route that runs son would have been forgiven for curling up into a ball and mostly along the Trans Canada Trail from Fernie through hiding in the closet. Tings were looking grim, and life as the back trails of the Kootenays and Okanagan to Merritt. we knew it had been taken apart at the seams. Yet all across According to Tristen, the fastest time the route has been the North Shore, the community instead chose to rise up ridden before is three days, 15 hours and 22 minutes. and tackle the challenge together. Tristen lef at 4 a.m. Saturday morning and hopes to be I am so proud of the way that North Vancouver came done sometime before Tuesday at noon. Tristen plans to together and closed ranks against COVID-19. Some break the record. among us really stepped out in front to fnd extra special Tristen’s motivation to take on this challenge is to use ways to contribute. Zen Maker Lab, in North Vancouver, the ride to raise money via donations for the Paralympic ofers innovative science, technology, engineering, arts Foundation of Canada. It is a foundation that he says has and mathematics, or STEAM, programs for kids, youth benefted him greatly as an athlete. Te funds will go and adults. When COVID-19 hit, they could no longer toward creating access to sport for more Canadians with a teach people in their labs anymore. So they quickly disability. retooled, turning their teaching lab into a manufacturing “Te Paralympic Foundation is all about diversity and shop. inclusion, and those are two big words that mean a lot,” Teir staf, normally engaged in teaching young people Tristen said. “For me, it’s just another great organization to be innovative and creative with science, themselves that is helping the global awareness and human population began to prototype, design and produce innovatively 12084 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020 make better choices when it comes to understanding what Society is still very active, working tirelessly to spread diversity and inclusion really look like.” their message of love and the importance of diversity Tristen said he is as mentally prepared for the B.C. and inclusion. In place since 2015, the White Rock Pride Epic 1,000 as he can be, but it will be the terrain he is not Society has worked with the city to organize our rainbow used to riding. Te route includes riding gravel forestry crosswalk and raising the Pride fag every third week in roads, mountain bike trails and some on the highways July at city hall. and byways. Prior to COVID-19, they organized entertaining fun- We all wish Tristen the best of luck and safe travels on draisers showcasing amazing LGBTQ talent, including his epic trek through our province’s rugged interior, and their annual gala, which is always a sold-out event. Tey’ve we thank him for his pursuit in making B.C. more inclus- also held quarterly minglers for the whole community to ive and diverse. fundraise for local charities and to network. You’ve never been to a great party or networking event RACIST INCIDENTS ON SUNSHINE COAST unless you’ve been to one organized by the White Rock AND LEGACY OF SYSTEMIC RACISM Pride Society. Moreover, in keeping with their message of inclusivity, board membership and activities are open N. Simons: Tristen has a connection to Powell River. We to all members of society who believe in diversity and appreciated the previous statement there. inclusion. Recently a banner was hung between two welcome [1:45 p.m.] poles at the Pender Harbour high school threatening that Tirty-three percent of board members are not LGB- if certain statues of historical Canadian fgures were TQ but believe strongly and rightly that opportunities toppled, so too would those poles. In another incident, the should be open to all and that discrimination in any word “conquered” was spray-painted onto a recently erec- form is wrong. I’d like to acknowledge the society board ted highway sign that included the Sechelt language name members, including President Ernie George Klassen, of Madeira Park, salalus. one of the four founding members; including Michael Tese racist incidents that took place on public property Barwell, Louise McKnight and Ruth Allard — who, do not refect or represent the thoughts, views or feelings sadly, passed away in 2019. of residents of Pender Harbour or the Sunshine Coast, as Other members who have helped build the society the outpouring of love and support for members of the include Lynne Sinclair, Marc Minette, David Ellis, Gary shíshálh Nation clearly demonstrated. But while we may McQueen, Art Beaulieu, Brent Bondarenko, Brant not want to be associated with the people who committed Darling, Andrew Harvey, Suzy Tucker, Samantha these ofences, their views, unfortunately, do exist within McQuade, Matt Trooper, Gord and Jan Wait, Susie Verde, the fabric of our communities. Tracy LeChance and Jamie Carson. In addition to addressing individual acts of racism, we Many board members volunteer their time for other ini- should also recognize that systemic racism is found tiatives and are business leaders in our community. Tey throughout the structures of our institutions. It allowed are the quintessential committed citizens that make White the abduction of Indigenous children into residential Rock and South Surrey a stronger, kinder and more inclus- schools. It raised black communities of Africville in Hal- ive place to live, and we’re all better for them. ifax and Hogan’s Alley in Vancouver to make room for White Rock–South Surrey, look out for some very fun highways. It turned away the vessel Komagata Maru from July events that the society will be holding this month, Vancouver Harbour, along with its desperate, mostly Sikh even with COVID-19 social distancing guidelines. You’ll passengers. It rounded up Canadian Japanese, including not be disappointed. 129 from the Sunshine Coast, and sent them to internment camps and stole their property. INVESTMENT IN Systemic racism creates and perpetuates deep inequality NANAIMO SOCIAL SERVICES in our society and results in poorer health and well-being outcomes for those targeted. Te acknowledgment of the S. Malcolmson: It’s been three years under a new Pre- shíshálh Nation’s title and their reassertion of rights over mier and our government. Here’s what we’re building their territory, the swiya, is part of British Columbia’s pro- together in Nanaimo. Child care — 473 new spaces, over cess of reversing the efects of systemic racism — a project $9 million back in the pockets of Nanaimo families with we’ll continue to pursue. reduced child care fees, training new child care workers and topping up their wages. WHITE ROCK PRIDE SOCIETY In education, portables out at Hammond Bay and seis- mic upgrades in at Cilaire and Pleasant Valley. Tat’s $18 T. Redies: Sadly, we couldn’t participate in the colour- million in those two schools alone. Te tuition waiver that ful, lively parades or local Pride galas that have become started at Vancouver Island University for former youth in synonymous with Pride Month, but White Rock Pride foster care — our government pushed that B.C.-wide. So Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12085 in Nanaimo, we can be proud that now 1,300 former youth Oral Questions in care are getting the same boost we gave students here. In health, at Nanaimo’s six long-term care…. GOVERNMENT ACTION ON OPIOID CRISIS AND ADDICTION ISSUES Mr. Speaker: Member, if I may interrupt for a moment. Just as a reminder, the two-minute statements are not to be A. Wilkinson: I think all of us in this House and all of partisan in any manner, and arguably, that is partisan. us who are watching know that for far too long addictions Member, if you might continue. were treated as a criminal justice issue, implying some kind of moral failure. All of this House, as far as I’m aware, S. Malcolmson: Very proud that the tuition waiver that accept now that addictions are a health issue. It’s an illness, started at Vancouver Island University has been pushed and it’s a very difcult illness to treat. B.C.-wide. We can be proud here that 1,300 former youth I’m going to ask the Premier to rise in this House and in care are getting the same boost that students got here. acknowledge — or perhaps he won’t — that, in fact, addic- In health, at Nanaimo six long-term care homes, 50,000 tion is an illness, not a choice. more direct care hours every year. A new urgent primary care centre is cutting emergency room visits, supporting Hon. J. Horgan: I thank the member for his question mental health and caring for those with no family doctor. and for the context in which he put it. It has seen 2,500 patients already. B.C.’s frst nurse practi- All of us in this House recognize and acknowledge that tioner clinic has opened here last month…. for almost a decade now, an unacceptable number of Brit- ish Columbians were succumbing to overdose deaths from Mr. Speaker: Member, thank you. a poisoned drug supply. We all know that addiction comes from a place of pain and trauma. We all know that people OUTDOOR RECREATION SAFETY who have addictions are not criminals. Tey need to be treated as patients and given the care that they need. R. Sultan: On the North Shore, we take Bonnie Henry’s Tat’s why I’m writing to the Prime Minister today to advice seriously. Outdoors is the antidote to lockdown. reinforce the conversation I had with the Deputy Prime People head for the hills. But our backyard is wilderness. Minister last week to support the national police chief’s Mike Danks, team leader of NSR, our volunteer North call to decriminalize the possession of opioids so we can Shore Rescue team, told me that when COVID restrictions stop stigmatizing people who have addictions and start came of, there was a dramatic increase in call volumes. helping them again. Tis wasn’t just for recreational hikers but also walk-away dementia patients and despondent, potentially suicidal Mr. Speaker: Te Leader of the Ofcial Opposition on individuals. a supplemental. As for hikers, many are not prepared. NSR asks them to follow three t’s: trip planning, training and taking. Trip A. Wilkinson: Well, Mr. Speaker, I’ve stood in the emer- planning means researching your route and terrain, check- gency room putting an IV line into a blue, comatose per- ing the weather and telling somebody where you plan to son. An injection of Narcan brought them back to life. go. Even now you can fnd yourself in ice and snow. Tat was no miracle; that was my job. I’ve talked to the Training means being realistic about what shape you’re grieving parents of the young person who has died from in. Do you really think this is like a stroll around Stanley an opioid overdose. Park? Since this government was sworn in, 3,917 British Col- Finally, what to take. Start by abandoning the fip-fops umbians have died of opioid overdoses. So I suppose it’s a and the cocktail dresses. Best to have a map. How about thin meal to hear the Premier give a politicized answer and spikes, poles, ice axe, raingear and warm clothing? A cell avoid the entire question. phone is helpful but not always reliable. It’s a very simple question, Premier. Do you still believe [1:50 p.m.] that addiction is a choice? If you do get into trouble, NSR will try to fnd you, but COVID-19 has made medical rescues more complic- Hon. J. Horgan: Just by declaring that it’s a politicized ated. Not much room for social distancing in a helicopter. response…. Politicized is the question, hon. Member. I Tis past weekend NSR performed two longline extrac- expected better from you, based on what you just said tions using a helicopter. Not many organizations have the about having someone’s life in your hands in your former motto saying: “We don’t really want you as a customer.” profession. All of us in this place care deeply about an unacceptable increase in overdose deaths. We were making progress, and 2019 saw a 36 percent decline in the number of people that succumbed to overdose deaths because of the heroic 12086 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020 eforts of health care providers, front-line workers and the the question. We did canvass this extensively in estimates broader community. last week, but I am happy to speak about it further. Today we’ve seen the highest levels ever last month. Te From day one, our government has made massive coroner herself said there are a whole bunch of reasons investments in the overdose response and in building a for that. We have an increasingly poisoned drug supply better system for mental health and addictions. When we because of COVID-19. Our borders are more closed than frst took ofce in September of 2017, we announced an they’ve ever been before. So those who push this poison investment of $322 million over three years, which sub- on to people are putting more poison into it. We’re seeing sequently was expanded further on into our mandate. more people using drugs alone because of social distan- Even the very frst year of that commitment was three cing. Tere’s a whole host of reasons why this is happening, times what the previous government was spending on the but I can tell you one reason why it’s not happening. overdose response. Because it’s being politicized. We’ve continued to invest more resources in the over- Let’s put that to one side. Let’s focus on the people that dose response and to build that better system for mental need help. Let’s start doing that today, all of us together. health and addictions care. But I think we need to be clear. We were lef with a system that was in chaos and Mr. Speaker: Te Leader of the Ofcial Opposition on that had enormous gaps. We are working overtime to try a second supplemental. and fll those gaps. I want to speak about the issue of prevention. Our A. Wilkinson: It’s a very simple question, Premier. Do investment in Foundry, for example, which is very much you still believe that addiction is a choice or not? about building that continuum of care, is fve times what the previous government’s investment was in Foundry. Hon. J. Horgan: I never believed addiction was a We are also expanding the number of beds. I made an choice. Te question came to me as a comparison between announcement last week about a $13.5 million increased COVID-19 and the opioid deaths from last week. If the investment in addiction treatment beds and supportive member took two seconds to look at the context or spent recovery beds. one second giving me a call, he would have known that. We’ve also announced, just last week, a major invest- I absolutely understand where addictions come from. ment in the substance use integrated teams. Tose are so You don’t have a hierarchy of morality on this question, important, because we know from the coroner that four nor do I. All of us need to stand together, stop stigmatizing out of fve people who died of overdose were connected to people, treat them as we need to, as patients, and help the health care system in the previous year. them. Don’t stigmatize them. We need to keep that connection. We need to keep them [1:55 p.m.] connected to care. We need to get them connected to treat- ment and recovery. We also need to do outreach so that J. Tornthwaite: We do know that despite the overdose we go into communities. We go into housing. We go into deaths going down before COVID, which now have those places where we know that people are most vulner- skyrocketed, the total number of non-fatal overdoses con- able and connect them to treatment and recovery and care. tinues to rise under this government. Tat means we do Tere is much more to do. We will keep escalating our not have a comprehensive mental health and addictions response. We will not take our foot of the pedal until we system to actually get people well in this province. turn the corner on this terrible crisis. Last week the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions repeatedly refused, afer questioning by me during budget Mr. Speaker: Te member for North Vancouver–Sey- estimates, to clarify what the Premier’s remarks were with mour on a supplemental. regards to addictions being not a choice. Now that the Pre- mier admits it’s his mistake, it is time for this government J. Tornthwaite: Tis government has had a separate to admit that they are not doing enough for mental health ministry devoted to mental health and addictions now for and addictions in this province. three years, and the overdoses continue to go up. Te min- Tis is what the NDP mayor of Vancouver said: “On the ister continues to brag about Foundry, but we do know overdose crisis, there is no mention of new support for where Foundry came from. It was our government’s opioids, overdoses or safe supply in today’s budget.” Tis investment that started Foundry. was this budget, this year. Te Minister of Mental Health and Addictions has the My question is to the Minister of Mental Health and smallest annual budget of any minister, smaller than the Addictions. Why don’t we have a comprehensive and budget of the Premier’s ofce. In contrast, Alberta is fund- properly funded mental health and addictions strategy in ing 4,000 addiction and mental health treatment beds and this province? spends 80 times more than this government does. Alberta has half the deaths of British Columbia. Tere is an Hon. J. Darcy: Tank you to the member opposite for Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12087 absence of will, political will, on the part of this govern- these ancient, endangered ecosystems and stop the devast- ment, which invests just a pittance in recovery. ation that we’re seeing in our forests. Te destruction of Again, to the minister. When is there going to be a prop- productive old growth isn’t uniform across the landscape. erly funded strategy that prioritizes getting people well In some places, it will be depleted as soon as ten to 20 and into treatment and into recovery? years. In some places, the next three months, six months, one year make a huge diference for protecting the impact Hon. J. Darcy: We are working across the continuum of to groves of Ancient Forest. Unfortunately, the rarest and care in order to build that better system of mental health most productive forests are going frst. and addictions. We need an immediate pause in these critical areas, [2:00 p.m.] home to some of the last remaining productive, unpro- I think it’s really important, perhaps, to re-emphasize tected old growth on earth, while a strategy for science- that our approach to this overdose response, our approach based old-growth management across B.C. is developed. to treatment and recovery, has several pillars. It includes We can’t wait any longer. prevention, which I have spoken about. It includes harm My question is to the Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural reduction, and it includes treatment and recovery. Resources Operations and Rural Development. Will he I know that the member opposite is fond of saying: pause harvesting in old-growth ecosystems at the highest “Well, we started Foundry.” Tat’s a little bit like saying risk and provide supports to afected workers while he somebody started on primary care reform a number of works on the promised old growth strategy? years ago and denying the massive expansion that’s taken place in primary care networks that have mental health Hon. D. Donaldson: Tank you to the member. I’m and substance use services embedded. happy for the opportunity to discuss our old-forest plans Just looking at prevention, for instance. Our investment for the province. in Foundry youth centres — which, yes, the previous gov- We undertook the old growth strategic review because ernment started — is fve times what it was when we took of a lack of action on this topic by the previous govern- ofce in 2017. We’re also investing in child and youth men- ment. Tere is a need for stronger steps to protect biod- tal health teams in schools, starting in fve school dis- iversity and to support workers and communities depend- tricts. Tat’s really about doing those wraparound sup- ent on the forest resource. We are taking a science-based, ports, those robust child and youth mental health teams, thoughtful and serious approach. I want to thank the panel so that we can prevent young people from turning to for their work. Al Gorley and Gary Merckel, over four addiction in the frst place — starting to tackle small prob- months, went to 45 diferent communities and received lems before they become big problems and before they thousands of submissions by email and written. afect the child, the youth, the adult’s entire life. We’re committed to release publicly the review panel’s As far as the continuum of care, we’ve expanded access report within six months, as the terms of reference said. to safe prescription medications. We’re expanding access We are well on track to meet that commitment. to treatment and recovery beds. We did, for the very frst As for actions that will rise from the report, again, I time in ten years, increase funding for per diems — the want to quote from the terms of reference: “We will engage frst increase in ten years — and brought in tough new reg- in government-to-government consultation with First ulations so that the recovery sector would no longer be the Nations before setting policy direction in response to the wild, wild west in British Columbia, which was, frankly, a report.” travesty and resulted in a number of tragedies over many Tat is in the spirit of respect rather than acting uni- years. laterally, and we will also be embarking on a thorough Is there a lot of work to do? Tere sure is. But we are engagement with workers, communities, industry, envir- working fat out to both save lives from overdose and to onmental organizations and other interested groups in the build that better system for mental health and addictions coming months. care. Mr. Speaker: Te Leader of the Tird Party and mem- PROTECTION OF OLD-GROWTH FORESTS ber for Saanich North and the Islands on a supplemental. AND TRANSITION SUPPORT FOR [2:05 p.m.] FOREST-DEPENDENT COMMUNITIES A. Olsen: Te request was simply to pause the harvest- A. Olsen: It’s three years into this government’s man- ing while that plan was in place. It’s difcult for people to date, and we await the release of the old growth panel see the trees continue to pass through their communities, report and the government’s long-awaited old growth noting that this panel has been doing their consultation. strategy, which they had promised to be guided by the Te debate about protecting old growth is ofen framed panel’s report. as a choice between protecting old trees and protecting British Columbians want their government to protect jobs. However, that’s not the choice before us. Te choice is 12088 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020 between a managed transition today and a sudden, abrupt SUPPORTIVE HOUSING FACILITIES AND transition when we’ve cut down the last stand of product- SERVICES AND COMMUNITY SAFETY ive old growth. Let me be clear. We’re not talking about sustainable jobs T. Stone: Te Premier’s lack of help for those sufering that will continue to exist for the next generation or two. from addictions is having a profoundly negative impact We know, from a recent analysis published by independent across our province. Without proper supports for those scientists, that the transition from old-forest harvest is in need, the government is simply warehousing people in imminent. We also know that as the high productivity old neighbourhoods throughout British Columbia. growth on the land base is harvested, communities will Alistair Kent, in Victoria, writes this: “Simply moving experience a falldown efect, and jobs will disappear as the issues into another vulnerable neighbourhood is unac- volume goes down and the industry logs smaller and smal- ceptable, and the lack of consultation is an insult.” ler second growth. We urgently need a plan to transition My question is to the Minister of Housing, and it is this. forestry workers and communities dependent on this non- For a government that has made literally an art form of renewable resource. consultations, why is the Minister of Housing being so dis- My question is again to the Minister of Forests, Lands, missive and unwilling to consult with neighbourhoods just Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development. Te like Alistair Kent’s? time for a transition is now. What specifc steps is his [2:10 p.m.] ministry taking to transition communities from a depend- ence on old-growth logging, and how much funding is he Hon. S. Robinson: Let’s be really clear here. We inher- demanding from the stimulus spending for this efort? ited a crisis that was years in the making. We also, then, were faced with a COVID emergency — a COVID crisis. Hon. D. Donaldson: I want to assure the member that We needed to move quickly to get people indoors. We had we’ve begun transition work already, for forest-dependent to thin shelters in order to make sure that people stayed communities and workers, to diversify the local economy. healthy, in order to create distance. Really, that’s at the basis of his question. So we moved people indoors. We moved very quickly so A couple of examples of that are recent community that people could be safe, so that the workers that are there grants that we announced. Port Hardy, for instance, could keep people safe and make sure that people are sup- received $60,000 for a boatyard haul out feasibility study. ported as well. Port Alice received $80,000 for an interpretive sign project. Te First Nations consortium received over $92,000 to Mr. Speaker: Te member for Kamloops–South expand the cold storage and freezing of local seafoods to Tompson on a supplemental. fulfl the local market. I also want to make sure members know that workers T. Stone: Te bottom line is this: the government has who are already displaced from the forest sector on the made a choice to not properly fund the number of beds coast are able to access, through the Ministry of Labour, and the required wraparound supports for those in need. the ofces we opened last year for retraining purposes and Last week, the government, with great fanfare, made a for getting support services for themselves to look to the housing announcement in Nanaimo. Problem is, the gov- future and other employment. ernment news release neglected to mention one key detail: We have focused on reducing log exports and bringing Nanaimo is actually getting a net gain of zero beds. Tat more fbre — in other words, less waste lef behind in means, by simply moving people around the community, cutblocks. An example of that is funding we supplied to hundreds of homeless and at-risk individuals will remain the Forest Enhancement Society of B.C. for 19,000 cubic without a roof over their heads or the supports that they metres of fbre around Port McNeill that otherwise would need. Meanwhile, the negative impacts of the minister’s have been lef in the forest — over a quarter-of-a-million- approach on the broader community and on small busi- dollar grant. We’re also focusing on mass timber to nesses will continue to worsen. increase value over volume because we know the volume To the Minister of Housing, my question is this. When available for timber products will be less in the future. will the minister build the supportive housing units with We are committed to implementing a new, up-to-date the wraparound supports that are so desperately needed in and comprehensive old-forest management strategy, in the city of Nanaimo? consultation with First Nations, that will address import- ant biodiversity concerns and support workers and com- Hon. S. Robinson: Well, in just over two years, more munities. Tat will include a further transition, as needed. than 2,000 people have a home that they didn’t have Te member knows that we will be putting forth our before, because the people on the other side of the House recovery plans, as far as the economic recovery, very soon, didn’t take action. Tey have supports. Tey all come with in the coming months. Tat will include measures to assist 24-7 on-site supports and help for residents to access addi- forest-dependent communities as well. tional specialized care in the community. We are seeing Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12089

tremendous progress here. We have people who are telling To the Minister of Housing, why is she choosing to leave us about how their lives have changed. small business owners on the hook? Te member mentioned Nanaimo. When we moved [2:15 p.m.] people into supportive housing in Nanaimo, it was tem- porary. Members may have forgotten — because they seem Hon. S. Robinson: Tese vulnerable people are already to forget their 16 years, so they may not remember two a part of our communities. We can choose to house them years — that there was a tent city. We moved people, on an with supports, or we can leave them — like the other folks emergency basis, into housing with supports. did on the other side of the House — without anything. I Do you know what happened? Tose people needed prefer, and I know that British Columbians prefer, to house to go and get new government IDs, because no one rec- people and to support them. ognized them anymore. Tey were looking healthy. Tey Also, with every single one of our projects, we set up a were no longer gaunt. Tey were getting three meals a day. community advisory committee. We have business repre- Tey were being cared for. I’m very proud of the fact that sentatives on those committees to make sure that we are we signed an MOU to build permanent housing for those continuing to engage the community and continuing to very same people. make sure that we are getting the feedback from the com- munity so that the operators understand what more they J. Johal: Te minister talks, but those who need help need to do. aren’t getting it. Tose are the homeless, the residents who Te other thing I have to say, hon. Speaker: when I see the government warehousing people, and the small listen to the members engage in such a manner, I see businesses that are lef to deal with the consequences. them pitting people against each other. I see them suggest- Jolanda owns Java Jo’s in Victoria. She told CTV News ing somehow that those who are most vulnerable are not recently that since the province purchased the Comfort worthy of support, not worthy of housing. I fnd that very Inn, she has been threatened and is worried about her own frustrating, because I have seen them, on the other side, safety. She says: “I’ve been threatened a few times in the around COVID. I’ve seen their response around being in past month alone.” this together, and I would invite them to work together To the Minister of Housing, why is she choosing not to with us to house people, to support people, to wrap our help these small business owners who are already dealing arms around them, rather than using them as political with the impact of the pandemic? pawns.

Hon. S. Robinson: We know that people and com- J. Isaacs: Te Howard Johnson Hotel is the new norm. munities have been struggling with homelessness. Home- British Columbians are seeing the lack of on-site support less people have been there for a long time. Tere have at facilities across the province as the government ware- been years of neglect, where provincial governments and houses people. Jacqueline Semple writes: “My parents, ages federal governments have not invested in afordable hous- 88 and 89, have lived in the West End for over 65 years. I ing, and this is what happens when you do not invest in am concerned for their safety now. Ofering accommoda- people. Tey wind up becoming homeless. Tey fall out tions in hotels is certainly not going to solve the problem. of the bottom of the housing continuum. Tat is what has People should be treated with a team of professionals.” happened. To the Minister of Housing, why is she choosing not to We are investing $6 billion in housing, making sure that provide the proper on-site supports for people in need? — once those people are stable, have their health back and are able to make decisions — not only can they move Hon. S. Robinson: We’ve certainly canvassed this ques- into afordable housing, but we are building the entire con- tion before in the House around how we do provide sup- tinuum, because it has been lacking for decades. ports for people. In fact, I will remind everybody about how at 7 p.m., we all cheered for those very support work- J. Johal: Te reason that businesses are speaking out is ers who are keeping people safe, who work with them to because they haven’t been consulted with. provide them some support. Here’s another hard-hit business, yet another story. Tis Let me read into the record…. For the member oppos- one is Dodd’s Furniture. Company president Love Dodd ite, this is another job description for a support worker in says the amount of crime and harassment has skyrocketed one of these facilities. recently. “Tey’re on the streets. Tere is drug use right “Tey participate in case planning with clients and our health in front of us. Tey’re drug dealing right in front of us. care providers by performing duties like interviewing clients who Tey’re screaming at us. Tey’re sleeping in our parking identify problems and needs; obtaining required information from a variety of sources, including their care providers; documenting lots.” client needs and wants and assisting them to determine appropri- Tese local businesses are now being forced to hire extra ate programs for their care; advocating for clients by problem-solv- security due to this minister’s incompetence. ing around fnancial assistance; accessing community resources; obtaining volunteer or work placements. 12090 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020

“Tey’re also required to observe clients; identify and assess Tabling Documents potential emergency situations; develop short-term strategies to deal with such situations, including de-escalating challenging be- haviours. Tey’re to do reports to medical and on behaviour and Mr. Speaker: Members, I have the honour to present a other problems as required. Tey’re to provide feedback about cli- report outlining the ministerial order made under section ents’ needs, their performance, their progress.” 10, Emergency Program Act, from the ofce of the Minis- All of these are supports that people need. We make sure ter of Public Safety and Solicitor General. that they get access to the medical supports that they need as well, and that’s what is available 24-7 on site for these Orders of the Day residents. Hon. M. Farnworth: I call continued second reading Mr. Speaker: Te member for Coquitlam–Burke debate on Bill 18, Economic Stabilization Act. Mountain on a supplemental. [S. Gibson in the chair.] J. Isaacs: I think that’s the ffh time that we’ve heard a job description for supportive housing staf, so thank you Second Reading of Bills for bringing that forward again. Look, there are more than 100 people living at the BILL 18 — ECONOMIC STABILIZATION Howard Johnson Hotel. Over 90 percent of them have (COVID-19) ACT addictions and mental health issues. Clinical workers, (continued) doctors and addiction specialists rotate, and they’re on site once or twice a week. Te burden, to support people facing S. Bond: Good afernoon. I do appreciate the opportun- major challenges, is on the support workers. But there are ity to make some further brief comments related to Bill 18. only 24 hours in a day, meaning that workers are barely As the Chair would know, I started my comments late last able to provide fve minutes of support to those 100 people week and reserved my spot to conclude my remarks today. living at the site. Tat’s not enough for people facing major Perhaps we should start with just a brief reminder of challenges. the key elements of Bill 18, which, ironically, is called the To the Minister of Housing, will she provide adequate Economic Stabilization Act. I hope that all of us would funding so that those who need access to wraparound ser- remember that this bill is being debated in the context vices can have more than fve minutes of support a day? of a fscal update that the Finance Minister provided last week. In that update, the Finance Minister outlined the Hon. S. Robinson: Well, I have to say, when we talk staggering debt that British Columbians will be facing in about 24-7 supports and more than fve minutes a day, the months and the years ahead. I have no idea what she’s talking about. I have visited a We learned, afer pressing the Finance Minister to be number of those, and there’s lots of opportunity for group transparent about the current fscal situation, that the counselling, for one-on-one. Tere’s lots of opportunity to province will be facing what I think could best be work together to develop case management. described as the best-case scenario, a $12.5 billion defcit. [2:20 p.m.] [2:25 p.m.] Do we have more to do? Absolutely. Tere is absolutely What’s most concerning is that despite the grim fnan- more to do. I am very, very proud of the fact that we have cial circumstances we face in British Columbia, there is no brought in 2,000 units of housing for those very people sight of a plan to begin the reboot of our economy and in just two years, and I look forward to another ten years to get people back to work again — not a jobs plan, no when we can bring in thousands and thousands of more economic recovery plan. Te Finance Minister herself told housing for these folks. British Columbians that this is likely to be the worst eco- I think that as a government, we have absolutely more to nomic downturn in recent history, yet there is no strategic do. Tere are certainly still more homeless people in com- and aggressive economic recovery plan. munities around this province because it was ignored for I know that every member of the House is entitled so long. We have a plan. We’re going to continue deliver- to their own views. But this morning, to listen to the ing for the people, for the businesses, for the communities members of the government try to state that because we because it’s not acceptable to have such a signifcant home- believe there needs to be a comprehensive strategic eco- less problem in this province. nomic plan, we don’t believe that health needs to be a priority…. Of course it does. Tere now exists in British [End of question period.] Columbia a health crisis and an economic crisis. So we need to see the government recognize that and create an economic recovery strategy. If the members would like to look across the country, they will see that other jurisdictions are far advanced when Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12091 it comes to looking at how to spur investment and create cumstances they are facing, notwithstanding a change of consumer confdence. So it’s not unusual or unexpected date for payment? that we would be talking about how British Columbia [2:30 p.m.] becomes competitive once again. One of the key elements of the government’s COVID-19 As I noted earlier in my remarks, Bill 18 deals with sup- response plan was a tax-free one-time payment of $1,000 ports and initiatives that have, for the most part, already for British Columbians whose ability to work was im- been announced. But we know there’s so much more to pacted. An amendment to the Income Tax Act is included do. I think it bears repeating that all of us understand that in this bill to make that payment possible. there needed to be supports for businesses and families in Perhaps one of the most signifcant implications of Bill our province. Te issue now is: how do we grow the eco- 18 relates to the ability to operate in a defcit position by nomy? How do we rebuild consumer and investment con- creating an exemption from balanced budget legislation fdence? through the ’23-24 budget year. As we saw in the fscal A signifcant component of the bill relates to the deferral update that was provided last week, in the absence of an of taxes. What it does is extend the fling and payment aggressive economic recovery plan, it may well be optim- deadlines for the carbon tax, the motor fuel tax, the istic to think that as a province, we are only facing three tobacco tax and the provincial sales tax until September years of defcit budgets. 30, 2020. While those initiatives in and of themselves have Certainly, we’ll be asking the minister what her expect- merit, there is concern about the date that is included in ations are about additional defcit years, especially if she legislation. extends the tax deferral deadlines and makes other adjust- Te opposition and business organizations in the ments to ensure that more businesses in British Columbia province have called for an extension to the repayment remain viable and can keep their doors open. period. Recently the B.C. Business Council has suggested Now, I don’t think anyone in the House or in our coun- that the tax deferral should be extended until the end of try, for that matter, believes that a fscal response to sup- the year. In addition — something that we spoke about port families and businesses wasn’t important and neces- earlier last week — there should be a 12-month repayment sary as a result of the devastating impacts of COVID-19, period in 2021, on top of businesses regular ’20-21 taxes. but it is also critical that there is a transparent, rigorous In other words, stretch out that payment plan so that busi- process that builds in accountability when governments nesses that are struggling will have an opportunity to make spend taxpayer dollars. As we have seen far too ofen, that those payments in a reasonable way. has not been the case in the past, and that is ultimately Tat is one way the minister could minimize the num- what led to balanced-budget legislation. ber of businesses that may be forced to shut their doors. It’s With the exemption that Bill 18 provides, how exactly that serious in our province. will British Columbians know whether spending is appro- Here’s what Jock Finlayson of the B.C. Business Council priate, whether it’s reasonable or whether it’s responsible? had to say about extending the tax deferral date: “Extend British Columbians deserve to know those kinds of details, deferrals on tax remittances until the end of the year, so exactly what safeguards will be in place is an important because it’s not like by September 1 or September 30 the consideration. Again, these are the kinds of questions that economy is going to be back on dry ground. It’s just not the we will be exploring in committee stage. case.” Section 21 will also require more clarity during com- As I noted in my earlier remarks, the legislation allows mittee stage. Te Financial Administration Act is being for a potentially later date that may be specifed by regula- amended to provide an expanded scope for special war- tion. I can assure the government that during committee, rants. It will be very interesting to see how the minister we will be asking the minister if she is prepared to commit explains the need for the use of special warrants following to an extended date and whether or not she’s considering the expiry of a state of emergency and that changes will that. Equally importantly, is she considering a repayment even be allowed for the anticipation of an emergency. plan that stretches over a longer period of time? I think that all of us can agree that COVID has forced Te act also enables the adjustment of dates for payment us to be innovative and creative in the way we conduct of the employer health tax, moving the payment to Octo- business in the Legislature. We’ve certainly seen businesses ber. Well, we know this. Even prior to the pandemic, the across the province look at ways to try to be resilient and employer health tax was a problem for many businesses continue their work. Tat is an important piece of discus- and organizations. I know that we will all remember that sion for us as we relate to the issue of special warrants. I these costs were downloaded on businesses, including a think all of us would agree, although it is not necessarily year where the government even double-dipped, collect- ideal, and sometimes there are technical glitches and chal- ing both MSP premiums and a brand-new employer lenges — we even saw some of those today — the system health tax. that has been constructed allows us, in our view, to efect- How on earth does the minister think employers will be ively conduct the business of government in new ways. able to pay the EHT afer the devastating economic cir- One would assume that that capability would reduce 12092 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020 the need for broad, sweeping expansions of scope for use Going forward, there are two challenges that govern- of special warrants. Tere is a lack of defnition and spe- ment needs to balance. On the one hand, government cifcity that could once again raise legitimate concerns needs to be able to adapt, given the substantial uncertain- about the transparency and safeguards related to the use of ties on the horizon, and ensure that people and businesses taxpayer dollars. are still receiving the supports they need come fall. Other- While many of the measures contained in Bill 18 are not wise, we risk seeing a substantial wave of bankruptcies and unexpected, what we continue to be disappointed about signifcant fnancial hardship. On the other hand, govern- is the complete absence of a strategic economic recovery ment needs to be sending clear signals about the type of plan that supports the private sector, gets British Colum- economy it wants to see for the future. bians back to work and rebuilds consumer, business and For most of these taxes, now due to be collected in investor confdence in our province. October, I think it’s important to recognize the possibility We will pursue answers to our questions when we reach of a strong second wave in the fall and that there are many committee stage, but in the meantime, we urge the min- unknowns about the ability of people to pay taxes that ister to look beyond this bill and to take the additional have accrued over the past number of months. Te carbon steps that are necessary to begin a path to recovery for our tax is unique, however, given how powerfully it is connec- province. British Columbia is facing the largest defcit in ted to being a signal about the types of industries and types the province’s history. To be clear, the opposition recog- of jobs we want to build, so it is also critically important nizes the need and the importance of responding to the that as a part of our recovery strategy, government bring COVID-19 pandemic — the importance and necessity of back the scheduled carbon tax increases that were suspen- supporting individuals and families and businesses. ded a few months ago. [2:35 p.m.] It is with some wide dismay that the information around It is also critical that there be transparency and account- how much in subsidies has gone to the oil and gas industry ability as our province grapples with the uncertainty of the in the past few months in Canada instead of going to the days ahead and of the staggering debt we are facing. We clean energy and renewable energy industry…. It’s prob- aren’t the only ones calling for a plan. Business organiza- lematic as a signal that we want to be sending. It’s import- tions, small businesses and many others want to know how ant in B.C. that we take a leadership role on this. the current government plans to spend and on what. I am Economists agree that consistent and scheduled hopeful that we will see a much more specifc, compre- increases to the price of carbon are central to its efect- hensive plan that will result in the goal of the bill that is in iveness as an economic tool. It provides business certainty front of us. and spurs investment in a clean economy. Te goal of Bill 18, as the title notes, is economic stabil- Tere are many innovative businesses in B.C. that are ization. While this legislation takes some steps, and there’s willing and able to lead the transition to a clean economy more clarity required on some of the elements contained and can create huge numbers of clean jobs as they do this. in the bill, there is a lot more work to be done. Tat needs But these businesses have been clear. It undermines poten- to be done sooner rather than later. tial investments in transitional technology if there is no certainty that the economy is moving in this direction and S. Furstenau: I’m pleased to take my place to speak on that it has the full backing of government. We will contin- Bill 18, the Economic Stabilization Act, today. Tis bill ue to urge, as strongly as we can, for government to let the amends multiple acts and makes a number of changes that carbon tax do its job as a price signal to help us to trans- implement COVID-19 response measures. It extends the form our economy. tax fling and payment deadlines for multiple taxes, creates Te bill also extends the time period for municipalities the B.C. emergency beneft and allows budget defcits for to remit the school tax and police tax to the province, but the next three years. it does require municipalities to fulfl their tax remittance One major piece of this bill amends the Income Tax obligations to TransLink and B.C. Transit to give them cer- Act to create the B.C. emergency beneft for workers. tainty of cash fow. Tis beneft is a tax-free, one-time, $1,000 payment for [2:40 p.m.] B.C. residents whose ability to work has been afected While the extension in this bill on the school tax and due to COVID-19. Tis bill also extends the tax return the police tax does provide municipalities with additional fling and payment deadlines for the carbon tax, the fscal fexibility to deal with COVID-19, the fnancial situ- motor fuel tax, tobacco tax, provincial sales tax and ation of municipalities is a serious issue and something I commercial property taxes. expect we’ll be talking far more about in the House in the As we commented when these measures were months to come. Municipalities are facing a signifcant fn- announced, these were the right steps to take at the right ancial crunch, and they don’t have the same fscal fexib- time. Te emergency beneft, along with these tax defer- ility nor the multiple forms of revenue that the provincial rals, helped businesses and individuals weather the imme- and federal governments have. diate fnancial crisis from the shutdowns that took place. At committee stage, I’ll be asking about the work that Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12093 the province has done to understand and mitigate the fsc- authorizing the social supports, economic investments al situation facing municipalities, especially given that they and programs required to get B.C. through this crisis. are being required to still remit full taxes to B.C. Transit Te Minister of Health, to take one example, oversaw a and TransLink, despite depressed revenues. We need to be health response to COVID-19 to keep our health care sys- sure that extending the school tax and police tax deadline tem functioning and to keep British Columbians safe. Te will be enough to ensure that they remain on frm fnan- minister has implemented widespread testing, extra surge cial footing. capacity for our hospitals, PPE for our health care work- Tis bill also amends the Balanced Budget and Minis- ers and a surgical renewal plan, all of which cost substan- terial Accountability Act to temporarily suspend the pro- tial money and all of which are absolutely required to help hibition against defcit budgets for the next three years, us to weather this crisis. Because of this, the minister is enabling the government to pass defcit budgets to the facing a 20 percent salary penalty this year. Tat doesn’t Legislature for the 2021-22, ’22-23 and ’23-24 fscal years. seem right. Tis is true for every minister and every port- As the fscal update showed last week, we, like every juris- folio afected by COVID-19. diction dealing with COVID around the world, are facing [2:45 p.m.] a very challenging fscal situation. Tere is a consensus Tis isn’t about individual ministers and how hard amongst economists and public policy experts of all polit- they’ve been working or their individual decisions. Tis is ical stripes that substantial government investment and about the signal we’re sending about the role of govern- intervention is required to support people and to boost ment leadership and the discretion of elected politicians our economy in this highly uncertain time. to make decisions supported by evidence and by experts Of course, the government needs to continue to respon- in the public service. Te proper place for ministers to be sibly manage expenditures, but fearmongering about def- held accountable for these decisions is in the Legislature cits is not helpful. Running defcits is not inherently irre- and, ultimately, by the people of B.C. during elections. It’s sponsible or problematic. What matters is not the defcit not by a punitive fnancial penalty that isn’t responsive to itself but the size of the debt relative to the strength of the the actual context we are in today. economy as well as the cost of borrowing. Te cost of bor- Tis type of legislation refects the damaging notion rowing is extremely low right now, and we went into this that government is not to be trusted, despite the fact that crisis on strong fnancial footing. At this moment in time, this pandemic has shown us more clearly than ever the it would be, frankly, irresponsible to not run a substantial need for responsible government leadership to support the defcit to support people and keep the economy moving. health and well-being of the people of British Columbia. But unfortunately, as the opposition can attest, fear- So I’m sad to see that this government has chosen to leave mongering about defcits seems to be good politics. this in place. Requiring a balanced budget each year is a purely political I will be speaking to this issue further at committee act that doesn’t support good policy outcomes. It makes stage, and I look forward to the discussion. longer-term planning and programming more difcult and results in artifcial constraints and inefcient spending Deputy Speaker: Our fnal speaker to Bill 18, second in ministries. So while I fully support the fact that this reading, is the member for Surrey South. bill allows for defcits for the next three years as we seek to recover from COVID-19, I question the reluctance of S. Cadieux: With the introduction of this bill, govern- this government to challenge this paradigm. Government ment has indeed unveiled a plan to run defcits for three should not have to change legislation to be able to run a years. Last week the Finance Minister laid out a grim pic- defcit when it’s the responsible thing to do. ture for the province’s fnances, and we’re still waiting for Tis brings me to my major concern about the bill: not a discernible economic recovery plan of any type. Now, what it changes, but what it doesn’t change. Tis bill con- I understand the likelihood of defcits for a few years. It tinues to reinforce the political frame that government is is difcult, though, to blindly support it. Te anticipated not to be trusted and that its role is to be minimized, des- while likely uncertain depths of the defcits that are projec- pite the fact that this most recent crisis is showing us that ted are an important consideration. precisely the opposite is true. Defcits for recovery purposes are one thing. Defcits Despite allowing budget defcits for the next three years, for unbridled spending on partisan projects or programs this bill does not change the salary holdbacks under this while on increased government payrolls are something legislation that were introduced by the previous govern- quite totally diferent. While we heard from the Finance ment. Tese holdbacks mean that ministers are penalized Minister that her priorities had not changed, despite laying 10 percent of their salary for not balancing their individual out for the public the likelihood of a defcit for this year portfolios and another 10 percent when the government of over $12½ billion…. Despite that, the Finance Minister budget as a whole is not balanced, for a 20 percent penalty. isn’t taking a look at government priorities. Tis means ministers are essentially being penalized for We’re also concerned about the broad emergency powers this legislation will confer upon government. Te 12094 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020 additional and even pre-emptive emergency spending Certainly, this was an action of government that was not authority contemplated by these amendments needs to unexpected, in order to support people who had lost work have the appropriate checks and balances in place that this through the pandemic. Certainly, understanding these power merits. Tis is especially the case when we have sections need to be implemented in order for that to ulti- now cemented the ability to scrutinize the budget through mately take efect…. video conferencing technology. Now, section 214 appears to state that the emergency Tis bill does a number of things, however, some of beneft is for the 2019 taxation year. Tis will need a little which are not unexpected given the announcements of explanation. I’m sure there’s a drafing purpose served here tax deferrals made by government over the last couple of that I’m not immediately understanding, but we can cover months. So this bill creates the authority for those defer- that in committee. rals. Section 215 establishes the qualifcation criteria. Section Sections 1 to 5 enact the deferral of the carbon tax and 223, a penalty of $3,000 for false applications, of which I the motor fuel, sales and tobacco taxes to September 30 or certainly hope we don’t have too many. Individuals who a later date if specifed by regulation. Tere appear to be received the B.C. emergency beneft for workers but are no phased-in repayments at this point, so while businesses ineligible have to repay the amount, and interest on that have appreciated the ability to defer, the repayments are all amount, afer 30 days. coming due at the same time. Tat may cause another cash Section 234 gives audit powers. All very standard. But fow issue, as the member for Prince George–Valemount equally important to all of this is what the bill doesn’t laid out in her remarks earlier. do. It completely fails to add any measures that could be Te B.C. Chamber survey data suggests that 43 percent construed as a recovery plan, despite its title — nothing of businesses have said that they’ll require more fnancial that could be argued to act as stimulus for an economy in help to stay open than is available from governments cur- shock. Te government has done much in terms of spend- rently. Chamber president Val Litwin specifcally refer- ing, yet it’s kind of dumbfounding how little help there has enced the deferred tax payments that will all come due been to help our small business–dependent economy. in that one swoop on September 30. Many businesses, In fact, there’s been very little support of any kind although reopening, are still seeing revenues far below provided to businesses. Almost no real spending on the normal levels. Only 23 percent have achieved normal sales part of government in the way of cash. No help to strapped volumes. Tey’re certainly not strong enough yet to be employers to get through. Not on rent relief for small busi- covering accumulated debts from closure months. In fact, nesses who had to close their doors to help respond to the many are still accumulating that debt. pandemic and keep people safe. Section 6 is going to enable regulations to extend the Government has, many times, pointed to the school repayment deadline and make regulations retroactive. Te tax reduction as a help for small businesses. Yes, the Finance Minister has mused publicly about the possibility province is taking a large hit with this measure. But who of repayment plans, but there’s no indication in the bill is it benefting? Mostly it is benefting landlords and how those might work or be structured. Section 6 pre- property owners, but the majority of small businesses scribes, as I say, the regulation-making authority to extend are tenants. Tey are not owners and landlords. Many of the deadlines, but we aren’t assured at this point that gov- them have seen no fow-through relief from the measure ernment intends to use it, nor how. implemented by government. Sections 7 to 9 enact the delay on penalties for late With just deferrals of owed taxes, which is what this bill payment of property taxes. Sections 10 to 14 enable local helps bring to fruition, we will now see all of that come due governments to delay the payment of tax sums collected in one lump sum for those small businesses. Meanwhile, and owed to the provincial government in order to ensure just next door, our closest competitor has announced a $10 liquidity from municipal governments. billion recovery plan, starting with a cut to the corporate Section 15 enacts the deferral of the employer health tax tax, which will further serve to reduce B.C.’s competitive- and allows alteration of payment plan scheduling. ness. Whether or not one likes tax cuts or professes that Section 16 repeals section 15, coming into force on that’s the only thing that this side of the House ever sug- December 31, 2021. Now, that’s, efectively, a sunset clause gests…. Regardless of whether or not that is your position, in EHT deferrals. Both the late payments will now become when your closest competitor does exactly that, your com- due at a new date, meaning that the combined deferred petitiveness is harmed if you don’t match it. payments become due in October. Recovery grants of $5,000 for small businesses, acceler- [2:50 p.m.] ating $500 million of shovel-ready projects this summer to Section 17 allows government to disclose information help get people working, launching an innovation employ- for the administration and auditing of the federal CERB ment grant to support jobs and industries that diversify applications. the economy…. We have heard much from both this gov- Section 18 enacts the emergency beneft for workers, ernment and from its supporting Green Party members which adds sections 214 to 239 of the Income Tax Act. that we want to see us build back better. We want to see Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12095 us build a greener economy with our recovery. Well, how Government needs a plan for the economy. We don’t see do you do that if you don’t help businesses and small busi- it from this government. Without it, businesses will fail nesses fnd ways to improve their operations? and people will teeter on the edge of bankruptcy. Govern- Te B.C. government, in contrast, has launched a survey ment’s projections for a $12½ billion defcit will slide even to fnd out what British Columbians think they should further into the red. So how is government going to lever- do with $1½ billion. Te Finance Minister was quoted as age that $1.5 billion they have earmarked for recovery to suggesting that health and safety measures are all that’s springboard our economy to a better place, not just to plug needed. While we argued this morning that health and holes in the dam? safety is necessarily and arguably priority number one, What do we know about what government is planning? it isn’t sufcient in and of itself as a path to recovery. A future that will likely have fewer balanced budgets, given Te only certainty that we have from government around changes that government is making in this legislation. Sec- recovery is its own paper accompanying the CERB. tion 19 creates that exemption for 2021 to 2024, and no Tey see recovery as building a B.C. where strong public change is made to the ministerial holdback provisions…. services are always there, meeting the challenge of the cli- Section 20 allows supplementary estimates, instead of sur- mate crisis and doing so in partnership with Indigenous plus amounts going towards debt repayment. peoples. Tey’re all good things. Tey’re all essential. When it comes to the presumption of defcits, what are Tey’re all things that government has to be considering the safeguards? With all of the ridicule the NDP levelled when it’s making policy. But there are glaring omissions, at us for balanced budget legislation when it was intro- like any mention of the industries and sectors that create duced and even subsequently…. Yet her own government, the ability for government to spend money, the industries for over three years, felt obliged to provide the same, to that bring investment to B.C., and revenue, therefore, to present balanced budgets under that legislation and to lec- the province, like the tourism economy. It had a pre-COV- ture, if not boast, about the strict commitment to balanced ID revenue of $20½ billion, with $1.7 billion in tax reven- budgets that she was undertaking. ue to B.C. It’s been devastated. No one, under the circumstances we fnd ourselves in [2:55 p.m.] worldwide, would think it was unreasonable to be project- Tere’s no plan currently to assist these businesses to ing a defcit. Of course emergency spending was required. stay afoat until global travel resumes and clients return. Of course revenues are down. But we still have a Finance Small businesses — 98 percent of the economy, employing Minister that believes that recovery will just happen. But more than half a million British Columbians. Te retail businesses are failing, jobs are being lost forever, women sector who might be looking to get online…. Ontario had and young people are the hardest hit, and government has a Digital Main Street grant to help build resiliency. I would no strategy to present. anticipate that many of our small businesses could use the Te concern, however, is that this bill is starting an same help. unravelling and a dismantling of the rigidity of the budget- What’s the plan to support our resource industry and ing process for the province. Te reason these measures our exporters? If we’ve seen exports fall 15 percent were put in place were quite simply because, lef to their through the frst fve months of 2020, what are we doing to own devices, previous governments of many stripes saw ft ensure that we’re going to build that back stronger? to abuse the budget process for their own political reasons. Really, it would just be great to know that government Tat’s why the strict timelines for budget processes are in had a plan at all. We don’t see any evidence of it. We need place — to prevent the manipulation of both the timing to be sure that we’re taking a comprehensive look at our and the content of the provincial budget. economy as we plan for the future. Beyond a hope and Te pandemic response, pandemic-related revenue a prayer that people will resume their normal activities declines and even recovery spending are fully expected, and spending patterns, what does government plan to do and yes, reasonably, some of this might stretch beyond this to stimulate the recovery? What are they going to do to budget. But we do need to know what to expect. increase our competitiveness as an economy and as a What are the safeguards going to be, if not balanced- province to drive innovation and resiliency in our biggest budget legislation? When government has presupposed market sectors? Tis can’t wait. It is urgent. the next three years of budgets will not be balanced, on Ninety-eight percent of our economy is those small what data is that supposition being made, and what will businesses, and up to 20 percent of them are expected to the diference be between a $5 billion and a $20 billion disappear within a year. Tat’s just not sustainable, and defcit, from year to year? What controls will be in place that isn’t going to help us to build back better. to ensure that spending is reasonable, to ensure that it Many businesses, although reopening, are still, like I is proportionate to the emergency, to prevent that defcit said, seeing their revenues far below normal levels. Tey’re from being padded by political posturing and unnecessary not strong enough to be covering those debts for closure growth in the public sector? What are the safeguards to months, and they’re not able to hire back all of their ensure that a responsible fscal plan — versus the NDP’s employees. 12096 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020 old ways of budgeting, of overspending and uncontrolled they be temporary? Certainly, the ability to issue a special spending — to resume? warrant up to six months afer a state of emergency begs Section 21 is going to expand the Financial Admin- the question of how we defne “temporary.” How cabinet istration Act’s scope for when special warrants can be anticipates emergencies will call into question the matter authorized for spending up to six months during a state of proportionality. of emergency. We are told this is because the pandemic Finally, now that we’ve positioned the Legislature, as I may not have been covered by the previous special war- stated, with special standing orders and video conferen- rant defnitions. cing technology that allows us to scrutinize needed spend- [3:00 p.m.] ing, as we did in March and continue to do today, we must Additionally, preventative and post-emergency recovery also ask the question: to what extent do those powers meet measures and criteria are contemplated for special war- the test of necessity? Any number of things could be con- rants. Preventative and post-emergency — what reason- sidered here, and I think the Finance Minister will need able example can the minister give as to why this is neces- to provide a very compelling case that what is captured is sary? We suspect that these conditions are too permissive, specifc enough to warrant support. especially given that the Legislature has now achieved a We are debating another bill to implement a bunch of means to authorize such expenditures remotely. measures that will signifcantly impact the provincial I’m surprised, frankly, given the comments in the Green budgets for the coming years. Just last week we saw a snap- Party member’s response just before this, that there was shot of B.C.’s dire fnancial picture. When asked about the not more of a focus on this presumptive measure. She future, the Finance Minister admits that we don’t know talked about the importance of trusting government and what it will look like. Tere are lots of unknowns, and it trusting ministers and, in her opinion, the need to remove could get worse, yet there are no plans to look at reduced the ministerial holdback provisions because you should government spending. trust government to do the necessary spending and the Before anyone goes of suggesting that I think we should right thing. Yet here we’re being told to trust government cut the programs people need, for the record, I am not. But to presumptively spend money without the Legislature’s there is and always are areas that can be trimmed when approval and to presumptively, in a recovery stage, spend the belt needs tightening. Te minister herself had govern- money, again without the Legislature’s approval. ment do that just last year. We’re doing this despite the fact that we have now the At the best of times, things happen, and priorities shif. ability to sit virtually. We have seen us come together as a Ask any minister who has worked on a plan for a program Legislature to do what was necessary in very short order or for legislation, only to see it shelved for another day. in March to provide government with necessary spending But in the face of a $12½ billion defcit — possibly more, authority. So I am, yes, a bit suspicious of the dismantling since they’ve decided not to update us on the projections of the procedural safeguards that are being proposed for B.C. Hydro and ICBC and since the Premier has since through this bill. Te extension by 30 days from election announced that he will match federal dollars that are tar- isn’t, I don’t think, overly egregious — at least, probably geted for recovery — this government has no plans to reas- not — but it does signal, also, a potential trend. sess their priorities. On the surface, a most reasonable-thinking British [3:05 p.m.] Columbian might see merit in providing government Well, that’s not good enough. Once again, no one on with extraordinary tools in case of emergency, but what this side of the House is going to blame government for is the defnition of “emergency”? Te inclusion here of the pandemic nor for the need for signifcant emergency anticipated emergency seems convenient but not in spending measures. But it is only reasonable to ask what keeping with the Emergency Program Act defnition the plan is to get back to a sustainable spending level. that emergency means “a present or imminent event or Understandably, things will continue to change and circumstance….” Te European Commission for Demo- evolve. Tey do that even without a pandemic. But that cracy through Law cites three key principles for the isn’t an excuse not to have a plan fve months in. I think implementation of emergency measures, which are government needs to do better. It’s not unreasonable for us necessity, proportionality and temporariness, to refer- to be asking. Clearly the pandemic has taken priority. Te ence my colleague from Vancouver-Langara. budgets of all levels of government have been thrown into Anticipated emergencies are a new concept for this act, shambles. Tis government now, at least…. Are they tak- meaning we should be especially conscious of the potential ing another look at their plan? Well, in response, they saw pitfalls that may result from broadening that special war- ft to announce those deferrals on a bunch of tax measures rant authority. Tey are, in essence, a means for cabinet but very little else for businesses and very little to drive to procure funds prior to seeking authorization from the growth in our private sector economy. Legislature. So how do we ensure that special warrants Now we have this bill, essentially cementing the inev- stemming from that anticipated emergency will result itability of defcit budgets for government for three years. from necessity? How will they be proportionate? And will We see the government next door beat the NDP to the Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12097 punch, reduce their corporate tax rate and add billions to Targeted support for the agriculture industry. Targeted support their economy while here we have a government support for the tourism industry. Mental health supports. content on discussions. Tis government has no plan for Child care supports. All of those not only help businesses economic recovery — period. but, in fact, help individuals and families as well. Support Businesses and economists are scratching their heads, for people with diverse abilities to make sure that they wondering why the government is treading water. “B.C., were receiving the supports. Support for children in care. in relative terms, is really throwing toonies and loonies Tat’s just a short list of the kinds of approaches that have at the sort of support-for-the-economy piece here, and been put in place. they’re essentially relying on the federal government’s bal- [3:10 p.m.] ance sheet and federal institutions. Tey really have done Ten next, safe restart, making sure that we could, as a very little,” said the B.C. Business Council. province, start opening up in a way that was planned and Unfortunately, the legislation before us doesn’t represent measured and, most importantly, safe, to build that confd- a change in direction. It contains no semblance of a plan ence for customers, to build that confdence for individu- for economic recovery, despite its title as the Economic als and, most importantly, to build that confdence so that Stabilization (COVID-19) Act, in a province that desper- businesses could open up again. ately needs it, and it sets us up for years of defcits. What I heard members talk about the defcit budgets and we know is that recovery will not be easy, even under the questioning the three-year approach to defcit budgets best of circumstances. But as elected ofcials, we have to to measure three years ahead. Tere is no question. No make sure that we’re making decisions based on all of the one, including economists, business groups or organiza- relevant information. tions, has a crystal ball to know how long we are going I hope that as we move into committee stage on this bill, to face the challenges in the economy. So we looked at we’re able to get more clarity from government on their what had been done previously by the past government, recovery road map as well as answers to the questions I for example, in other years. Tey put aside three years. raised today in this time here. It’s an important piece of It’s going to be reviewed each year. It’s going to be looked legislation for the future of our province. I look forward to at each year. But we feel, again, that’s a responsible way discussing it further. to be able to manage. With that, I’ll close. Responsible budgeting. I heard discussion around re- sponsible budgeting. Well, we’ll have an opportunity to Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, I recog- talk further about responsible budgeting and defcit nize the Minister of Finance to close debate. budgets. Tere is no question that there may be a dif- ference of opinion between the past government and Hon. C. James: Tank you to the members who have ourselves around putting those supports in place. responded to the second reading on Bill 18, the Economic I heard the member ask about reductions in the civil Stabilization (COVID-19) Act. Just a few pieces to touch service and the public service, looking for cuts, looking for on to summarize. I know we’ll have a chance for a lot of reductions in supports. Well, that’s not our approach. It’s this debate and discussion when we move into committee not a time to start creating less jobs, to start causing chal- stage, but I did want to touch on a few of the themes that lenges when it comes to providing services and supports I’ve heard running through this discussion. for people that they rely on so deeply in this province. We Te frst one is around plans for the economy. I heard saw for 16 years what happens when you approach budget- a lot of discussion around plans of the economy and what ing from that perspective. So yes, there will be a diference kind of direction the government is going. Well, I want to of opinion, I expect. remind the members once again that in fact the clearest I know these amendments that are laid out in this bill plan for our economy and for economic recovery is a will help ensure that the province is better equipped, not strong health and safety plan, because if people do not feel only now through COVID-19 but, in fact, into the future. confdent in the direction that’s happening in the province, I look forward to the conversations the members have if they do not feel confdent that we’re addressing the talked about, the special warrants piece. I think that’s, health and safety issues, you will see no economic recov- again, a very good discussion. I agree with the member ery. In fact, that was our frst and foremost piece that we that it has to be very tight. It has to be for extreme circum- put in place for our COVID action plan. stances. I think this session has shown that we have the Te second piece: immediate supports for businesses ability, in some emergencies, to be able to manage. and for individuals. I won’t run through all of those. I’ve I give the example of an earthquake. Perhaps, as a Vic- done that ofen. But I did hear the members say there was toria MLA, it’s on my mind ofen that those are risks that nothing there for businesses, other than a few deferrals. we face. Tis building faces big risks if there’s an earth- Well, $700 million in a tax cut for businesses — not a quake. If the system was down and there weren’t oppor- deferral, an actual tax cut to reduce property taxes to help tunities to come together and emergency funds needed to with cash for businesses. be there, to include the pandemic as one of those emer- 12098 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020 gency pieces, I believe, is the responsible thing to do, with employers and the workers to prevent injuries in the frst all of the checks and balances that the member talked place. Prevention is important. about — making sure that it has to come back to the Legis- Ten in order to make that happen, you must have a lature, making sure it has to be public, making sure that it’s strong enforcement regime in place. When injuries do short term and making sure that it is truly an emergency. occur or people become sick due to the workplace, they I would agree with all of those points, so I think that will are respected and their claims are dealt with, with respect be a good discussion. and dignity so that they get the support that they need, the With that, I move second reading of Bill 18, the Eco- medical care that they need and rehab that they need to nomic Stabilization (COVID-19) Act. prepare them to go back to their pre-injury job. All of those are key fundamentals to have workers’ Motion approved. health and safety and a strong workers compensation system in place. In support of this goal, many policies Hon. C. James: I move that Bill 18 be referred to a Com- and program changes are taking place at WorkSafeBC to mittee of the Whole House for consideration at the next ensure that the workers are treated with respect and feel sitting of the House afer today. supported when they need to access workers compensa- tion. Bill 18, Economic Stabilization (COVID-19) Act, read a While important policy and program improvements are second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole taking place at WorkSafeBC, some improvements require House for consideration at the next sitting of the House amendment to the Workers Compensation Act. As such, afer today. Bill 23 introduces a number of modest but important improvements to British Columbia’s workers compensa- Hon. S. Robinson: I’m acting as House Leader. I now tion and the occupational health and safety system. Bill call second reading, Bill 23, Workers Compensation 23 makes the improvements that our government believes Amendment Act. are important to keep workers safe and to support injured workers and their dependents while ensuring afordable BILL 23 — WORKERS COMPENSATION changes for employers at this time. AMENDMENT ACT, 2020 Many of the signifcant changes in Bill 23 refect the fndings and the recommendations from four reviews Hon. H. Bains: It is my honour to stand and open the undertaken since 2017 to examine diferent aspects of the second reading of Bill 23. I move that Bill 23 be read a system. In April 2018, Paul Petrie reported on his review second time now. of WorkSafeBC’s policies to ensure a worker-centred I must say, right in the beginning, that as the Minister of approach wherever practical. Labour, it is my commitment and the commitment of this In December 2018, Terry Bogyo delivered his report government to make British Columbia the safest work- examining options for WorkSafeBC’s accident fund and place jurisdiction in Canada and to support injured work- the excess surplus. Tis review included a number of ers and their families. At the same time, government is options for using the excess surplus to increase workers fully aware of the fnancial pressures being felt by employ- compensation beneft levels. Given the fnancial uncer- ers during these unprecedented times. tainty that has since arisen with the COVID-19 emer- [3:15 p.m.] gency, many of these options are not being addressed at Worker safety and an efective, supportive workers com- this time. Bill 23, however, does include several of the pensation system are important to me, both personally more modest proposals of Mr. Bogyo’s report. and as Minister of Labour. One of my priority mandate In August 2019, Lisa Jean Helps reported on her assess- commitments from the Premier is to increase compliance ment of government and WorkSafeBC’s progress in imple- with employment laws and standards put in place to pro- menting recommendations stemming from past reports tect the lives and safety of workers. Over the past three into the tragic Lakeland and Babine sawmill explosions years, I have been working with WorkSafeBC on changes in 2012. Ms. Helps reported favourably on the improve- to improve education, inspection and enforcement pro- ments made to date but recommended a number of fur- grams and engage employers and workers on how to ther changes, including four new legislative amendments ensure workplace safety. to better protect workers’ health and safety and to support It is also a priority of this government to have a workers WorkSafeBC’s health and safety inspection program. Bill compensation system that is more worker centred, because 23 makes all four of these statutory changes. the primary purpose is to protect workers and to support [3:20 p.m.] workers with rehabilitation services and loss of earnings Finally, earlier this year Jef Parr consulted with busi- compensation during difcult situations. If you look at the nesses, workers and Indigenous representatives on the three basic pillars of the workers compensation system, legislative proposals in the Petrie, Bogyo and Helps reports it is through education and training, working with the and made recommendations for legislative change based Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12099 on what he heard. Most of the signifcant changes in Bill 23 time of the disability assessment, when the amount of their were reviewed with these stakeholders and were endorsed permanent disability award is determined. Tis approach in Mr. Petrie’s consultation report, although we’re not is a real challenge, particularly for workers injured at a moving ahead with all of the recommendations, due to the young age, who may be unable to provide satisfactory COVID-19 emergency. evidence that they would retire afer age 65. I do want to take this opportunity to thank Paul Petrie, If passed, Bill 23 permits the board to make the deter- Terry Bogyo, Lisa Helps and Jef Parr for their profes- mination of a worker’s date of retirement and, therefore, sionalism and expertise in undertaking these reviews and the end date for their permanent disability award afer providing government and WorkSafeBC with very the worker reaches age 63, much closer to the real retire- thoughtful fndings and recommendations for our consid- ment date. Tis much-needed amendment makes the sys- eration. tem fairer for workers. Tey will be in a better position to I will now move on to highlight the specifcs of Bill provide evidence of their retirement closer to age 65, and it 23. Bill 23 makes three enhancements to provide injured allows for a more equitable determination of when a work- workers with workers compensation benefts that better er would retire. For some workers, who can show a later take into account their loss of earnings. When people are retirement date…. Tis can be a signifcant beneft for the injured on the job, we need to ensure that our workers injured worker and their families. compensation system responds to their needs and the Te third improvement to ensure that the compensation needs of their families. Tese meaningful changes will for an injured worker and surviving dependents better improve support for injured workers and their families refects the worker’s loss of earnings is to increase the without signifcantly increasing the employer’s cost during 2021 maximum insurable earnings threshold to $100,000. the current COVID-19 emergency. Te earnings threshold is the maximum income on which Te frst improvement relates to the approach used to workers compensation payments can be based. determine the amount of the permanent disability award. [3:25 p.m.] Te most benefcial calculation is used for each individual Currently the maximum income threshold is $87,100 worker’s circumstance. for the year 2020. Tis means that if an injured worker In 2002, the previous government amended the act so earned more than this — say, $95,000 per year — their that, in most cases, permanent partial disability payments compensation beneft will be calculated based on only must be calculated using what is called the loss-of-func- $87,100. Tis means the worker is behind fnancially, just tion approach. Under this approach, the monthly com- because of the maximum threshold limit, when injured at pensation beneft is based on a worker’s likely loss of earn- work through no fault of their own. ings according to the nature of their injury. Te alternative While the intent of the maximum income threshold is loss-of-earnings approach, whereby compensation takes to provide fnancial stability to the system by avoiding into account a worker’s real loss of earnings in their par- excessive compensation payments for extremely-high- ticular situation, is only permitted in exceptional circum- income earners, the existing earnings threshold under- stances. compensates a signifcant number of workers in British For workers who are unable to return to their pre-injury Columbia and has fallen behind the maximums used in employment and income — and those circumstances are some other Canadian jurisdictions. Te increase to not considered by WorkSafeBC as exceptional — the 2002 $100,000 is intended to meet the goal of ensuring that at amendment requiring a loss-of-function award ofen res- least 90 percent of the workers are covered for 100 percent ults in compensation less than the worker’s loss of earn- of their earnings. ings. For future years, WorkSafeBC will continue the current Bill 23 will provide, for a permanent partial disability, practice, under the act, of increasing the maximum earn- that the amount of workers compensation must be based ings threshold proportionate to the change in British Col- on the higher of the loss-of-function approach or the loss- umbia’s average earnings. Tis is another way that we are of-earnings approach so that the workers are not lef making real changes to improve things for workers. undercompensated for their loss of earnings. Tis import- In addition to these workers compensation enhance- ant change restores the way the compensation system’s ments, Bill 23 adds an important improvement to support payments for permanent partial disability were determ- the rehabilitation of injured workers. ined before the 2002 amendments. In some cases, workers may require diagnostic or Te second compensation improvement impacts the preventative treatment before WorkSafeBC is able to length of the permanent disability award. Under the act, decide on their application for workers compensation. monthly workers compensation payments end when the Providing such health care services on a timely basis, worker reaches age 65, unless WorkSafeBC is satisfed that including before a decision can be made on the claim, may the worker would have retired later. prevent a case from becoming a serious claim, a claim that Tink about this. Currently the fnal determination of could end up being more severe for the injured worker and whether a worker would retire later than 65 is made at the more costly for the workers compensation system. Tis 12100 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020 meaningful change is good for the whole workers com- modern technology and the need to sometimes obtain a pensation system. warrant on an expedited basis from a remote location in Certain occupational diseases, such as HIV and tuber- the province. culosis, and psychological injuries, such as post-traumatic stress disorder, may be worsened by a delay in treatment. [R. Chouhan in the chair.] For this reason, Bill 23 will provide explicit authority for WorkSafeBC to provide health care services and supplies Te Workers Compensation Act will also be amended before a workers compensation claim is decided if medical to remove the existing unnecessary step that the Work- evidence indicates that the worker is at risk of a signifcant SafeBC president must give approval before a WorkSafeBC deterioration in health. Tis change provides meaningful ofcer may forward an investigation report to Crown support for workers to ensure they remain as healthy as counsel to consider prosecution. possible, while possibly saving the system higher health We are also adopting this health recommendation to care and compensation costs in the long term. allow injured workers and family members of deceased Another change in Bill 23 will specifcally recognize workers to make victim impact statements to the court mental disorders in the provision that sets a one-year time as part of quasi-criminal or regulatory prosecution, simil- limit to apply for workers compensation. Currently the ar to victim impact statements that can be made in crim- claim must be made within one year from the date of inal proceedings. Tis important change will give a voice injury, which is difcult to establish for claims involving to afected people to describe the impact that a breach a mental health disorder. Under Bill 23, mental disorder of workplace safety has had on them. It will also provide claims will be fled within one year of the date of mental them with a better sense that their personal perspectives disability. and impacts have been heard. Tis change will enable WorkSafeBC to recognize the Bill 23 also provides the legislative authority for the unique nature of mental health disorders — for example, court to order a person who is convicted of an ofence the fact that they ofen develop gradually — and establish to publish, at the person’s expense, the facts relating to appropriate policies on how the one-year time limit applies the commission of the ofence. Te potential for such an for workers who have a work-related mental health dis- order will act as a deterrent, and publication will help order. We believe that this necessary change will better educate other employers about their legal responsibilit- support access to workers compensation for a work- ies for worker safety. related mental disorder, most notably for occupations with Bill 23 also includes a number of changes to improve frequent exposures to work-related trauma. the efectiveness of the workers compensation system in As I noted earlier, Lisa Helps made several key recom- British Columbia. For example, Bill 23 will provide Work- mendations for legislative changes in her report related SafeBC with additional tools to collect unpaid assessment to the tragic Lakeland and Babine sawmill explosions in and other amounts owed to WorkSafeBC from employers. 2012. Te amendments contained in Bill 23 will imple- Improved collection will help ensure that funds employers ment these recommendations and help improve the are legally required to pay will be available for workers investigation and prosecution of workplace safety compensation. Improved collection also ensures a level infractions. Tat, in turn, can help deter non-compli- playing feld for employers who play by the rules and make ance and educate employers about their responsibilities the payments they are required to do. for the safety of workers. Specifcally, this bill adds a director’s liability provision Tese amendments support my priority for B.C. work- to hold corporate directors liable for a corporation’s places to be the safest in the country. To begin, the legisla- unpaid assessments or other amounts owing to WorkSafe- tion will provide the authority for justices to issue Work- BC. It also clarifes and expands on the board’s ability SafeBC investigators with search and seizure warrants that to collect from successive employers when an employer are appropriate for the investigation of workplace safety closes one business and opens a new legal entity that is, in ofences. Currently the warrants are obtained under the efect, the same business. As well, in cases where the busi- provisions of the Ofence Act, but those provisions do ness owes money to WorkSafeBC but claims to have no not recognize all the realities of investigating a workplace assets or has otherwise not paid the debt, the bill provides safety ofence. authority for WorkSafeBC to collect money from the third [3:30 p.m.] party that owes money to the business. Tis amendment includes the authority for a warrant to Another signifcant operational improvement will pro- conduct tests, take samples, search computer hard drives, vide the Workers Compensation Appeal Tribunal, ofen observe employer training programs and take photo- called WCAT, with the authority to hear and decide Cana- graphs — all of which may be important to provide evid- dian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and human rights ence of a worker’s safety contravention or ofence. code issues that workers or employers may raise in a case It also includes authority to obtain a tele-warrant rather before WCAT. Currently, workers and employers can have than appearing in person before a justice, to recognize Charter and human rights questions decided at the frst Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12101 level of review of the WorkSafeBC review division, but not and educate employers about their responsibilities for the at the second and fnal level of appeal of WCAT. safety of workers. Tis amendment will mean that workers and employers I ask all members of this Legislative Assembly to join can have Charter or human rights code questions decided with me for workers, for employers, for safe B.C. work- in a more streamlined manner within the workers com- places and support these important legislative initiatives. pensation system without having to appeal the review divi- I look forward to the debate on this bill. Tank you very sion’s Charter and code decision directly to the courts. much for the opportunity to have my say. One fnal operational improvement that I will specifc- ally mention is the new authority for WorkSafeBC to J. Martin: It’s a pleasure to be able to speak to Bill 23, reconsider a decision or order afer the usual 75-day limit the Workers Compensation Amendment Act of 2020. Te for consideration has elapsed if the decision contains an legislation before us today proposes a number of things: obvious error or omission. Currently when an obvious boosting the maximum salary on which workers com- error is discovered afer the 75-day period, the afected pensation benefts are based, allowing courts to issue worker or employer must go through a review and appeal search and seizure warrants in workplace safety investiga- process to have the correction made. tions, as well as what the minister just summarized, waiv- [3:35 p.m.] ing the current 90-day waiting period if WorkSafeBC lists Tis change will streamline the process for workers and COVID-19 as a presumptive occupational disease. employers when WorkSafeBC acknowledges afer 75 days On top of it all though, in the middle of a pandemic, that a decision contains an obvious error. Tis is fair. Tis with unemployment approaching 14 percent, this is a gov- also cuts red tape, which many employers will be looking ernment bill that will impose added costs — unknown forward to. added costs — to businesses who are struggling desper- Besides these more signifcant changes, Bill 23 also con- ately right now. In a word, it’s quite irresponsible, and the tains several other operational improvements and a num- timing couldn’t be worse. Without a doubt, it is, of course, ber of housekeeping and technical changes to the Workers the obligation of a government and employers to protect Compensation Act to ensure that the drafing style is up to the health, well-being, and safety of all workers. When date and the act clearly expresses the legislative intent and workers get injured on the job or sufer from a work- existing policy. related disease or illness, they deserve to have easy, quick, Given that we continue to live with the new reality of efcient access to treatment, care and support. COVID-19, I will end with the one amendment that has We all want an efcient and efective workers compens- been included in it to directly respond to the COVID-19 ation system, one that provides fair compensation benefts pandemic. As members of the House may know, Work- to all workers in British Columbia. B.C.’s workers com- SafeBC is currently conducting an expedited review and pensation system is funded by premiums paid by employ- consultation on potential occupational disease presump- ers to compensate for workers injured on the job. As such, tion for COVID-19, and possibly other diseases caused by the system requires balance and stability at the same time. a communicable viral pathogen. So we must ensure that the system has the money to If the WorkSafeBC board of directors chooses to enact provide protection and compensation, not just today, but a regulation to establish this presumption, this bill will down the road into the future. It’s critically important that waive the usual statutory requirement that a WorkSafeBC this system is committed to being fnancially stable and regulation may not come into force until at least afer 90 sustainable in the long term. days afer its date of deposit. Waiving the 90-day require- [3:40 p.m.] ment will allow WorkSafeBC to expedite the support and However, the Labour Minister’s actions in recent impacted workers during a provincial health emergency. months have not given workers or employers the security Our government is committed to improving things for they need and deserve under this system. For example, in injured workers while keeping the system afordable for May, we sent a letter to the Premier asking for WorkSafe- employers during these challenging times. Bill 23 is BC’s surplus to be used to reimburse employers for pur- important because it will provide improvement to the chasing personal protective equipment to keep employ- benefts and support that injured workers and their fam- ees and customers safe during the pandemic. Well, the ilies receive. Bill 23 will protect and support workers Labour Minister told Postmedia: “All of the surplus has throughout the province as they go to work and undertake been wiped out.” Let me repeat that. Te Labour Minister their workplace duties during these unprecedented times told Postmedia: “All of the surplus has been wiped out.” and beyond. However, WorkSafe issued a statement the next day Workplace safety is everyone’s responsibility, and Work- which suggested something very diferent. Tis must be SafeBC needs the investigative tools to thoroughly pro- very embarrassing for the minister, who showed a com- secute workplace safety infractions. Bill 23 will give them plete lack of understanding about the fnancial situation of those tools, which, in turn, can help deter non-compliance his own Crown agency. And now this exact same minis- 12102 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020 ter tables a bill saying that there is enough money to enact that it extends beyond a typographical or administrative changes to the workers compensation system. error. We need some clarity. We need some assurance of Once again, let’s be very clear. Of course we are com- what this bill would do. mitted to a healthy and safe workplace and to providing If we go to section 15, this is the section that allows support for injured workers. However, the minister has not for payment of services and supplies before a decision been clear at all about the cost these proposed changes in has been made on a worker’s entitlement. Well, 95 per- the bill may result for employers. In other words, this takes cent of claims are accepted, which means that the work- us down the road to another unknown. Nobody knows ers compensation system will be efectively subsidizing a what this is going to cost. portion of care that would otherwise be covered by the We can’t emphasize enough how B.C.’s workers com- health care system. How many businesses are going to be pensation system must strike the right balance between able to endure this? workers and employers to ensure fair compensation and [3:45 p.m.] long-term fnancial stability, especially in the middle of a Section 17, compensation for permanent disability will pandemic — or I should say in the midst of a pandemic; be paid based on the higher amount based on section 195 none of us know — with so much uncertainty, when our and 196 of the act. Well, the dual system allows for small society is already in stress as B.C.’s economy plunges into loss of function awards to become larger loss of earnings recession with staggering job losses. awards, which was a factor that led to issues with WSBC’s British Columbians deserve better than this. During fnancial issues prior to the reforms in the 2000s. the COVID crisis, why is the government focusing on a Section 18. Tis is the one that changes the age at plan that will impose greater costs on small businesses which a determination for a worker’s retirement must be who are already reeling in the wake of a pandemic? Hun- made, at 63. Well, this could present issues for cost man- dreds of thousands of British Columbians are out of agement and projections with a lack of fnality once a work. Countless businesses are on the brink of shutting decision is made. down permanently. In section 25, it strengthens the powers of the board Tis is a time when government should be making to make a demand from a third party to pay moneys things easier so that people have jobs to return to and owed. Well, it’s easier to pursue larger third parties but paycheques to look forward to, to support their families. much, much harder in the case of small and medium- While keeping health and safety in mind as the priority, sized businesses. Tis section may need to be clarifed to we need to do everything we can to support small busi- indicate that such a process would only be pursued when nesses instead of adding extra costs at this, the worst pos- other processes have failed. Additionally, this is going to sible time to do so. make it much, much more difcult for small businesses, We’ve seen from the past four months that this gov- non-profts and social service agency boards to recruit ernment does not have an economic recovery plan any- directors. where in sight. Not only have they turned down our sug- Tis bill is problematic on so many fronts. I cannot sup- gestion to give refunds to employers from the WorkSafe- port it, and I urge my colleagues in the House to oppose BC surplus to cover the cost of PPE, they also ignored it. At stake is the future prosperity of British Columbia. our other 13 policy letters with more than 60 sugges- Tank you for this opportunity. tions sent to the Premier. Now, we need to know that this bill is not just another G. Kyllo: It gives me great pleasure to rise on behalf of way for the NDP to incur further costs for employers and my constituents in Shuswap and speak in opposition to Bill businesses who are already sufering due to an economic 23, the Workers Compensation Amendment Act. downturn, lack of consumer confdence and the govern- Tere are many challenges with this bill, and the biggest ment’s 23 new and increased taxes over the past several part of it has to do with stability and the timing. As we years. Tis bill could in fact be the straw that breaks the know, we are currently in the midst of the worst pandemic proverbial camel’s back for far, far too many businesses in that we’ve seen in over 100 years. Tere’s much uncertainty our province. with respect to businesses, as my colleague from Chilli- Tere’s going to be an opportunity to hear from other wack has mentioned — unemployment rate at 13.4 percent members from my caucus and possibly others, and we’re in the province currently. In the last jobs report, of the new going to have an opportunity in committee to look at this 108,000 jobs that were apparently recorded last month, the bill in great detail. But I would like to just point out a few majority of those are part-time — so still a signifcant of things, specifcally, that have caused some concern. British Columbians that are out of work. Section 11, for instance, allows the board to recon- Te unemployment rate for young people in our sider a decision past the 70-day limit if it contained province is near 30 percent. Just think about that for a an obvious error or omission. However, what does that second. Nearly 30 percent of the young people in British mean? “An obvious error or omission” is not defned in Columbia are currently unemployed and out of work. As the amendment. Tis could possibly end up meaning we’ve seen with this government over the past three years, Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12103 we have seen continual burden put on the backs of B.C. suspect in itself. It came out on the same day that the Min- businesses, starting frst with the employer health tax, ister of Finance was providing her fscal update. If that which put an additional $1.9 billion of new taxation right announcement alone wasn’t cause for concern enough — on the backs of B.C. businesses. In addition to that, we saw a $12.5 billion defcit — at the same time that the Fin- the increase of the corporate tax rate here in British Col- ance Minister is putting out the very bleak news about the umbia. prospect of the economy here in British Columbia, they We need to keep in perspective the fact that at the time dropped this bill, with very little fanfare. when B.C. is continuing to erode the competitiveness of So I think government certainly is aware that there are B.C. businesses, we’re seeing other jurisdictions, both many concerns with respect to this bill, and the business south of the border and to our neighbouring province of community is extremely concerned. Also, I think we have Alberta, going in the opposite direction. Te corporate tax to start having a look at the minister. Te minister stands rate in Alberta today is 8 percent. In B.C., it is 12. Te cor- in this House today, suddenly with all of the answers. Te porate tax rate in British Columbia is 50 percent higher skies are clearer. He has a clear understanding of what is than it is for our neighbouring jurisdiction of Alberta, just needed for WorkSafeBC. But I think we have to also take to our immediate east. that into context. Again, as my colleague from Chilliwack mentioned, we As my colleague for Chilliwack mentioned in his open- have to provide balance. Tere is no question that Work- ing remarks, it was only back in May that, when ques- SafeBC is extremely important. It provides safety and tioned about size of the worker accident fund — which, by security for workers, but we also have to fnd the balance the way, it reported in December of last year, was $20 bil- to ensure that the WorkSafeBC premiums do not escalate lion; that’s $20,000 million — the minister responded by to the point that it continues to erode the competitiveness saying that the surplus, which was anticipated at $3 billion of businesses here in British Columbia. back in December, had been wiped out. You have a $20 Tere are a number of challenges with the bill, with billion fund, and the minister, in responding to a reporter, respect to the uncertainty that it provides. My colleague cavalierly, of-cuf, mentions that a $3 billion worker acci- referenced, with specifcity, the reference to the return to dent fund surplus has suddenly vanished. the dual-pension system. Now, this is one of the areas that Now, WorkSafeBC quickly came out to provide some caused signifcant cost pressures on the organization back relief to British Columbians that, actually, no; they’d only in the 1990s. WorkSafeBC was in a fnancially unsustain- lost $1 billion. We even have to just think of that for a able situation, and the primary driver for that was that second — $1,000 million was lost under this minister’s there were required reforms specifcally around this dual- watch; $1 billion had suddenly disappeared through, I pension system. would say, certainly not conservative investments of those Now, if the current government did not learn any les- funds. Tere are no funds in this province that are more sons from the 1990s, there was considerable work with important than those funds that are set aside specifcally to reforms that were put in place in the 2000s that moved look afer workers that are injured and unable to return to away from that dual-pension system in order to provide the workforce, yet, under this minister’s watch, $1 billion the certainty around costs and to provide cost relief largely was lost from that fund. for businesses. Here the minister stands, suddenly with all of the [3:50 p.m.] answers, with many new initiatives that are going to cost What we see now is a return to that. So we must ask an untold amount of money, and businesses in B.C. should ourselves: why now? Tere is so much uncertainty with be very concerned. We need to have stability, and we need respect to COVID. Businesses are absolutely struggling. to remove uncertainty. Many businesses are telling me that they’re in survival Te business community has written to Premier Horgan mode, and 10 percent of businesses are likely going to be and to this government and asked them: “Please, whatever closing their doors. Tere is certainly some fnancial sup- you do, do no further harm. Do no harm. Do not put any port that’s coming from the federal government, with very additional costs on the backs of businesses when they’re little support from the provincial government, I might say. struggling or looking for recovery.” As we know, many of As those supports come to a close this fall and CERB pay- the changes that are set out in the Workers Compensa- ments come to an end, I think we’re going to fnd ourselves tion Amendment Act will put additional cost pressures on in a very, very tough situation here in British Columbia. WorkSafeBC, and we have yet to have numbers provided Tere’s no question that there are some portions of the by the minister that give any idea of the magnitude of bill that have merit and validity and that I think need to those additional costs. come forward. But on any hint of additional cost pres- We also have to give consideration to the true cost of sures that are going to be put on the backs of B.C. busi- WorkSafeBC. I was speaking just recently to a logging con- nesses, I think we must ask ourselves: why now? Why is tractor. He indicated that the rate for his industry classifc- it the time? ation is 7.8 percent. For the 7.8 percent out of every dollar Even the timing for the release of Bill 23 is a little bit 12104 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020 that gets paid to an employee, an equivalent amount gets Here we have the Premier of our province, who has set aside from the employer into the WorkSafeBC fund. chaired his Economic Recovery Task Force. Tey’ve [3:55 p.m.] been sitting now for three months, and what have we Now, when you have a look at what the minister is heard from this task force afer three months of meet- considering with moving to the presumptive cause for ings? Zero, zilch, nada, not a word. COVID, what many British Columbians don’t under- So $1½ billion was set aside. It was our understanding stand or appreciate is that if a worker is injured on the it was going to be there to help businesses that are looking worksite, it’s not just their future wages or wage losses to re-establish themselves and reopen, and to provide that that are covered by WorkSafeBC but all of the medical opportunity for people to fnd that most gainful employ- costs and medical care. Quite ofen that is a very signi- ment, yet we hear nothing from this government. fcant portion of the costs. Te Minister of Labour himself, in estimates just a few In many cases, the wages that are paid out to the injured weeks ago, shared this with me, with respect to sick pay. worker pale in comparison to the overall cost of the med- He reassured me that businesses could not aford any ical services that are actually provided. We’ve got to won- further cost burden. Tat was the reason why the Pre- der: is this a manoeuvre of the current government to mier and he, as minister, had chosen that they certainly move costs that are currently being absorbed by our med- would not be putting any additional costs with respect ical system in our province and putting that directly onto to sick pay on the backs of B.C. businesses. I applauded the backs of B.C. businesses? that to the minister. You know, if we think of the number of individuals that However, here we are not two weeks later, and we’re have been impacted by COVID…. My heart certainly goes moving forward with new legislation that is doing exactly out to those families that have been impacted and those that — putting more cost burden on the backs of B.C. busi- that have been afected directly. At the same time, we have nesses, eroding the competitiveness of B.C. businesses. It to consider that we’ve been very fortunate. We have very is for that reason that I’m unable to support Bill 23. few cases, compared to other jurisdictions, but what about a second or a third wave? Tat’s certainly something that is M. Lee: I also wish to rise today to speak to Bill 23, the concerning for all businesses. Workers Compensation Amendment Act, 2020. You have a business that potentially could have a worker [4:00 p.m.] that is impacted by COVID. For that individual, should As the member for Chilliwack has spoken, too, we all they be hospitalized and have to be intubated or on a vent- recognize, as members of this House, the need to strike the ilator for a number of weeks or a number of months, the right balance between workers and employers to ensure cost per day is literally thousands of dollars. If you look fair compensation and long-term fnancial stability. We at the potential cumulative total of additional cost burden know that as a province, especially where we are facing the just with the health care associated with COVID…. ongoing efects of COVID-19. With that and with unem- Again, we must remember that for many of these busi- ployment approaching 14 percent, this Bill 23 will impose nesses, through no fault of their own, an employee could additional costs to employers and businesses who are come into contact with COVID at a worksite. Tat would struggling tremendously in this current circumstance. be very unfortunate, but why should the business have to It’s important to ask, as the member for Shuswap has bear the full brunt of those costs? Te additional costs just done: during this COVID-19 pandemic crisis, why is associated with a claim, COVID-related, could be in the this government coming forward to impose greater costs tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars. For a small on small businesses, who are clearly struggling in their business, they would not be able to absorb that additional recovery from this pandemic? Why bring forward these hit on their WorkSafeBC premium. changes at a time where this government has no economic We have to be very cognizant and make sure that we’re recovery plan? Why is this government taking a piecemeal being fair with respect to how we’re moving forward on approach when the minister doesn’t even know the costs any changes to the WorkSafeBC regulation that’s currently and the impacts of the changes under Bill 23? And why are in place in our province. Again, if we just go back to the this minister and this government causing greater uncer- whole idea of competitiveness and business certainty, I’ve tainty at this time? spoken already about how businesses are struggling. As we As the member for Chilliwack said, there are hun- look to the B.C. Restart Plan, there has been little fnancial dreds of thousands of British Columbians that are out data with respect to how B.C. is going to actually look at of work and countless businesses that are on the edge restarting and kick-starting the economy of our province. of shutting down permanently. Tis clearly is a time It’s been a very slow start to date. where government should be making things easier so I appreciate that the work that we’ve done — largely that people can have jobs to return to and paycheques to through the advice of Dr. Bonnie Henry, of keeping support their families. COVID cases down — is absolutely critical and abso- When we look at the concerns of this bill, we look at lutely the frst step. We also have to give consideration…. the uncertainty that may be caused. Take, for example, Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12105 section 18 of Bill 23. We’ve heard the minister speak to As I reviewed with the minister during the estimates the determination of retirement age and deferring that the process, the board is clearly going through and adjudicat- board’s determination of workers’ retirement will be when ing claims related to COVID-19. Certainly we recognize the worker reaches the age of 63. Tis clearly will be a chal- the importance of ensuring that workers are provided with lenge for businesses to know how to manage and know the the right benefts and compensation to help address where costs. those claims have been found to be related to COVID-19. Another example is section 11 of this bill. We certainly But of the 500 claims that were adjudicated by the board, will want to examine, at committee, the grounds on which about 150 of them were dismissed. the board may, on its own initiative, reconsider a decision I didn’t get any indication from the minster that there or order, particularly when we know that there are other was any concern that the board was not able to deal with review and appeal processes in place. Te fact that the COVID-19 claims in the workplace. Tat is what the board board can self-initiate and correct its own mistake only has been doing. Yet through communications from this belies the fact that, in the frst place, their decision should government to the board, despite the minister’s indications be made accurately and without error and that if there is a and confrmations of the independence of that board, this challenge it ought to be done through the various review government has come forward to accelerate a COVID-19 and appeal processes that currently exist. presumption. Already the board has accelerated and As the member for Shuswap has already referred to, sec- expedited its review. It has taken a process that would typ- tion 17, in amending section 196 of the act, would signi- ically take 18 to 24 months and compressed it to a matter fcantly increase long-term disability costs, particularly for of months, and it has done so where…. WorkSafe is mov- mental health claims. We want to understand from this ing faster than any other jurisdiction in Canada. government why it’s returning to a process that resulted Tere are some states in the U.S. that have put in place in signifcant fnancial instability for WorkSafeBC in the a COVID-19 presumption, but from my understanding, late 1990s. Why is this government looking to increase it’s not nearly as broad as the approach that WorkSafeBC employers’ WCB assessment costs now, in the time where is clearly and currently mandating. When you look at the the province is most at risk? Tis will likely be quite signi- review that was provided to WorkSafe, its board, it cited fcant in terms of the additional costs and add to the cur- that the research was based on limited analytical research rent economic challenge for employers and businesses in currently available and that the conclusion of this rapid this province. review is that there is no strong evidence of a consistent Te administrative amendments under section 15 of association between workers in a specifc occupation and this bill are another example of what is not a modest a signifcantly greater risk of COVID-19, SARS and the amendment. Te minister, in his second reading speech H1N1 infection. here, referred to these amendments as being modest. Well, Despite that, this government is putting in place an perhaps that’s modest compared to the other signifcant amendment to the act to enable a regulation, if it comes changes that are proposed in these numerous reports that into place — if the board makes that decision to put in have been in front of government for some years now. place a COVID-19 presumption under schedule 1 — that [4:05 p.m.] the 90-day period would no longer be required. Well, this Section 15 would broaden the services and supplies pro- indication clearly fies in the face of the minister’s repeated vided by the board to be completely open-ended, without assertions and confrmations to myself in estimates that the defned list that is currently set out under the act. It this minister and this government respect the independ- would enable the board, before it makes a determination ence of the board to do the work within their mandate. of a worker’s entitlement to compensation, to pay for [4:10 p.m.] health care services and supplies. Without a doubt, it’s clearly the obligation of govern- Tis is an expansion of the board’s mandate, clearly, and ment and employers to protect the health and safety of all potentially reaches into broader health care issues rather workers. Certainly, as we look at what is being proposed than workplace and employment issues. Tis is inconsist- here, we need to ensure that there is an efcient and efect- ent with the historic compromise that is foundational to ive workers compensation system that provides for fair our province’s workers compensation system, where the compensation benefts to all workers, but this system right to sue for workplace injuries was exchanged for needs to be balanced, and it needs to be stable. employers funding a no-fault insurance scheme for work- Tis government has demonstrated a real lack of ability place injuries. to ensure and manage that WorkSafeBC surplus, with the Now, the minister talked at length as well…. I had the indications, the corrections and the confusion that the opportunity in estimates to discuss with the minister the minister has caused, about the status of that surplus, by his communications that the minister had, and the Premier, statements that it had been wiped out at one point. Tis with the WorkSafe board. I will say that in the midst of the is in the face of proposals by the Leader of the Ofcial indications that there will be a national sick pay program, Opposition and our caucus, to the Premier, that the Work- one wonders why this is needed at this time. SafeBC surplus ought to be used to reimburse employers 12106 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020 for purchasing personal protective equipment to keep employers and the province — for certainty that people employees and customers safe. don’t end up on other supports that the province is provid- I look forward to debating this bill at length at commit- ing, whether it’s the health care system, social development tee because this government is taking advantage of the cir- or whatever might befall somebody that ends up in one of cumstances of this special session — circumstances where these two schemes. we have the Economic Recovery Task Force of this govern- Te thing that does concern me is the urgency with ment, and we haven’t seen the report. We haven’t seen the which, the minister has kind of suggested, this needs to be results, yet in a very piecemeal fashion, this government is brought in. It’s been brought in. Tere have been three dif- bringing forward legislation to amend a component — an ferent consultations. However, the consultations, I think, important component, but only one component. lack the business or the employers’ perspective. We’re see- In the absence of understanding the impact of the costs, ing academics, social enterprise–experienced people, as the minister demonstrated during estimates — and the making comments about how this should be, but what I additional uncertainty that this will impose on employers see that’s missing is the employers’ component on this. in our province — if employers and businesses can’t man- Why have they not been consulted on their perspective age the recovery, there won’t be those jobs for the employ- about these things? ees. We won’t have the paycheques to ensure that families Tere are thousands and thousands of employers that can be fed, that rent can be paid. have frsthand experience dealing with WorkSafe, and I We are, clearly, all in this together. For this govern- think that in most cases, employers want a good, reliable ment to bring forward this act on a basis where they system that doesn’t beneft people that are using the system have had some challenges with employers in this prov- inappropriately and that, as well, makes certain that there ince in terms of consultation — the lack thereof — and are punitive things for employers that are not necessarily rush this bill forward…. We will want to be asking, in doing their part. opposing this bill, to ensure that we continue to main- I guess I’m struck by some of the sweeping changes that tain that right balance, that there isn’t additional cost in are in this bill. Te one that struck me the most was section the way that small businesses and industry, all over this 4 — the police state that we’re going to fnd ourselves in, province, have been asking this province and this gov- in the fact of the ability for WorkSafe employees to be able ernment to ensure would be the case. to go out to a workplace and seize and shut down oper- Tis is not the time to add additional costs and uncer- ations, based on certain criteria. Tat leads me to believe tainty to employers throughout this province. We need that WorkSafe is inching towards being even above the to get this province back on its feet. We need to defeat court system. Te court system in Canada is the corner- this bill. stone of our democracy. It is the fnal stop where people get a determination on their rights. B. Stewart: I’m glad to be able to express some of the I think this section goes beyond that, and I look forward views that I have on Bill 23. I know that my colleagues to questions about that being answered — and the lim- who have spoken before me have raised the issue about itations. I think too ofen we fnd that the government the timing of this particular bill and the sweeping kinds of puts it into an act where regulations will determine that, changes that it contemplates, not just on the presumption and frankly, that’s just not acceptable. British Columbians, of people’s health afer COVID-19 but, more importantly, Canadians, deserve better. Tey need to know that there is about the costs that are going to be added to the people certainty when it comes to these things. Tey cannot have that are part of this insurance scheme. an arm of government that essentially has powers that are I think one of the things we have to keep in mind about threatening that will shut things down. the insurance we’re talking about here is that WorkSafeBC What type of state will we be in if we have it so that is not really any diferent than ICBC. It’s a government employers feel threatened every time there is something insurance scheme where people pay into it to make certain that somebody is coming to check, rather than a collabor- that if in need, they have an ability to fall back on that. But ative point of view? I heard, earlier, the Minister of Finance the two schemes seem to be going in very diferent dir- speaking about collaboration. Tis is the way this should ections. We had Bill 11 just recently the other day, which be working. It should be a collaboration between employ- limits compensation to people that are accident victims, in ees, employers and the government to make certain that one insurance scheme, and we have WorkSafe, for which there’s a balanced, good, solid system that has a foundation we are opening up the doors in all sorts of ways, taking of that doesn’t necessarily favour one side or the other, unless limits and making changes. there’s a particular reason for that type of balance. [4:15 p.m.] I do see that there are other changes that have been I think we’ve got to remember that the clients, in both mentioned. It says that the board “may make regulations cases, deserve to have a certain amount of certainty. If it that difer in either or both…ways.” I think the situation goes too far in one direction and doesn’t seek the balance, is that both employers and employees are looking for cer- it afects everybody that’s using the scheme — employees, tainty and a lack of confusion in terms of how these are to Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12107 work. If you get something that’s so complicated, and there they’ve used as people to help them make the decisions or are all sorts of exit ramps or of-ramps in terms of that, it recommendations that are in front of us today. leads to the uncertainty. So thank you very much. I take my place to hear more It adds to the cost, and it leaves people that actually on this bill. really need the help, in terms of the WorkSafe support, from being able to get an easier, quick, clearly defned Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, Minister decision so that they can get better — or if they are not able to close the debate. to return to work, perhaps retraining or some other oppor- tunity for them. I think that that is an underlying thread of Hon. H. Bains: I just want to say thank you to all of the overall Bill 23: it just leads to confusion amongst every- those members who participated in this very important body that it’s going to be touching, in this particular case. bill. A theme that I heard from member afer member is to [4:20 p.m.] strike the right balance between the workers’ needs, their Section 11 talks about errors and omissions. I think that health and safety, and to protect employers and their con- in this particular case…. I’m not quite certain about the cerns. But that’s exactly what Bill 23 does. 75-day limit currently, but it’s not defned in the amend- We have taken a very modest approach which will keep ment. I guess I’d have to question why it wasn’t working the rates of the employers, as a result of this bill, the same before and why it needs to be altered. for the next two years. At the same time, we are improving I think that there do need to be limitations in terms of workers’ health and safety and bringing ourselves in line reviews and in going back and looking at orders. Certainly, with many other jurisdictions who are already there or I think that in the worst-case scenario, you might want to way ahead of us. When you look at enhancing workers’ have to be able to appeal to the court if you need to over- health and safety and keeping employers’ premiums stable turn or to look at a decision like this. But the idea is that it and low, that’s exactly what it is — what you call “strike the is changing, and I’m not certain if open-ending it is really right balance.” Tat’s exactly what we are doing. such a good idea. Tis government understands that the businesses, the I think that the things we look forward to are more cer- workers and our society are going through very challen- tainty and more clarity for people that are going to have to ging times because of COVID-19. We recognize that. live with this, whether they’re small, medium-sized or big Tat’s why, very quickly, government put in place support employers or whether they’re workers that are non-union, for businesses, knowing that many of them will be hurting, union. Tey all count on this system to protect everybody’s and they are hurting. As a result, many workers are being rights. laid of. Tat’s why the tax deferrals and tax cuts…. For Employers want to make certain that they can aford it. example, in the business property tax cut, it amounts to I think that that comment earlier about the fact that we’ve about $700 million — one of the largest tax cuts for busi- added on increases in the corporate tax rate, the employer nesses in the history of the province. health tax, which came out just earlier this past year…. [4:25 p.m.] Te reality is that we’ve got what is not stated, but that WCB also allowed employers to defer their premiums there is going to be an increase in liability with WorkSafe- for six months, without penalty or interest, waiving premi- BC because of the fact that we’re changing the rules. We’re ums for certain employers. increasing the protection, and that doesn’t come without Going back years and continuing on even today, some sort of added cost to both the employers or the employers are paying subsidized premiums paid for by people that are counting on that reserve system. I know the surplus enjoyed by WorkSafeBC. Because of a good, the minister had some confused remarks around it. But the strong economy in the last number of years, more reality is that those reserves are there to protect people in premiums are going, more workers are working. And the long term, both the employers and the employees. also a good return on their investment, so they were able As we move towards the end on this, I can’t help but to give subsidized rates. compare the uncertainty that the new Bill 11 has created, Te cost of claims is $1.67 per $100 payroll, but the in terms of limiting people being able to go to the courts employers are paying $1.55. I’m advised, despite Bill 23, and limits on ICBC insurance, and the fact that we have they will continue to enjoy subsidized rates for the next this open-ended, perhaps, plan with WorkSafeBC under few years. Tat’s what the responsible government does. Bill 23. Tat’s exactly what we’re doing with Bill 23. I have to say that I’ll be looking for a lot of answers Te member talked about a historic compromise that in the committee stage. I look forward to hearing those we should not forget. I agree. What is the historic com- and having the minister explain. Perhaps, maybe, there’ll promise? It is that the workers gave up their right to sue be some reasonable amendments to come out of this. I do their employers if they are injured at a workplace or they think that it’s important that employers have a say at the become sick as a result of the work. In return, employers table on this, not just the government and the people that agreed to fund a no-fault system through premiums so that the workers who were injured at the workplace are 12108 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020 looked afer — their health and safety. Teir medical bills Committee of the Whole House are paid. Tey’re looked afer. Teir rehab is looked afer for them to be prepared to go back to work. And their loss BILL 6 — MINES AMENDMENT ACT, 2020 of earnings is looked afer so that they can continue to sup- port their families. Te House in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on If you look at the changes that we have since 2002, 2003, Bill 6; S. Gibson in the chair. in many areas, they’re not fully compensated. Teir loss of earnings is not fully compensated. We’re making some Te committee met at 4:32 p.m. modest changes to bring some fairness into the system without adding costs to the employers. On section 1. Tey talk about being confused. On the one hand, they’re asking that WorkSafeBC should use the surplus T. Shypitka: Just a few initial comments before we get to pay for PPE for the employers. What does that mean? into the committee stage here. In my three short years as a Tere’s a potential increase of premiums if you do that. On critic for Energy and Mines, I’ve learned a lot, and I’m very the other hand, they’re saying that in Bill 23, you shouldn’t thankful for the experience I’ve acquired from the hard- be able to use the surplus if there’s any cost attached to it. working people of this province, who are working in the Tey can’t make up their mind. Te cost of this bill is very, industry that’s foundational to our province. very modest: 1.4 cents per 100. Tey are enjoying a 12-cent Although the industry is very complex, with many mov- subsidy right now compared to the cost of the claim. ing parts, the basic solution to keeping this industry alive We’re being very responsible, very modest, but there are is to be clear, to be consistent and to be certain. Unneces- changes that are needed. We need to modernize the work- sary red tape and regulation is a killer to our industry, and ers compensation system so that it works for the employ- this bill, I see, has some warning signals attached to it. ers and it works for the workers. Tat’s what the system is With that, Chair, I would like to start with a general all about. Tis bill allows them to do that. question on section 1. Tere are some employers’ groups out there that are thankful that it cuts red tape. But I heard some of the Te Chair: Please proceed, Member. members here thinking that is a bad idea; that’s their position. I think this is the right approach. It is a bal- T. Shypitka: A frst question to the minister: do we have anced approach. It’s for the right time, considering an estimated regulatory count for this legislation? COVID-19 and that we want to continue to support the [4:35 p.m.] businesses but, at the same time, make the WorkSafe sys- tem efcient, support the workers, improve their health Hon. B. Ralston: Tis amendment will add nine regu- and safety at the workplace and give them the respect latory requirements, according to the system that is used and dignity that they need and deserve when they are to count regulatory requirements. injured and using this system. Tat’s what this bill does. I want to thank again those T. Shypitka: Interesting — nine, in the regulatory count, who participated in this. up. Can the minister tell me if the regulatory count has With that, I now move second reading of Bill 23. been up, with this legislation, from 2017 — or through the whole ministry, actually — from 2017 till the current time? Second reading of Bill 23 approved on division. [4:30 p.m.] Hon. B. Ralston: Tis is the only change that has been made to the act since 2017. Tose nine changes are the Hon. H. Bains: I move that the bill be referred to a only ones. If the member is seeking the entire regulat- Committee of the Whole House to be considered at the ory count for the legislation as it is, I’m advised that they next sitting of the House afer today. don’t have that information right here now, but it will be made available. Bill 23, Workers Compensation Amendment Act, 2020, read a second time and referred to a Committee of the T. Shypitka: Yes, I would look forward to seeing those Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the regulatory counts, for sure. House afer today. Is the minister, then, saying that regulatory counts are up, for the ministry as a whole, since 2017? Hon. H. Bains: I call committee stage of Bill 6. [4:40 p.m.]

Hon. B. Ralston: Te process is that when legislation is new, there’s a regulatory count as to what the new legisla- Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12109 tion might involve. Tat was done, and I’ve given you that Are there any qualifying experiences or education in the answer. mining sector that the chief auditor must possess in order In terms of what the base is, that doesn’t seem to be to be appointed under the Public Service Act? available at this point. I think this was an unanticipated question, and that material is not available. Te staf is Hon. B. Ralston: Te goal is to appoint a qualifed, making the commitment to provide that in due course. competent person, but there are no formal requirements that that person have any particular background in min- T. Shypitka: I guess the fnal question in this section, ing. But obviously, given the nature of the position and before we go to section 2, is: is the minister, then, con- the work that’s being requested, that will be a factor cerned about regulatory counts as refective of his min- weighing in the decision as to who the chief auditor, he istry? or she, may be. [4:50 p.m.] Hon. B. Ralston: Well, we had a fairly extensive ex- change between myself and the member in estimates. T. Shypitka: So what I’m hearing the minister say is What I’ve stated is that the ministry is engaged in a regu- there’s no guarantee at all that the chief auditor will have latory reform process, mandated in my directions from the any kind of relative mining experience or technical skills. Premier in order to reduce the regulatory burden without It will be all under the guidance of the Public Service Act. lowering standards, in order that the approval process of Te next question here, then, would be: can an individu- mines would be more expeditious. al be employed anywhere in the mining sector, private or Yes, I am concerned about it. Yes, we are working on it. public, and be appointed chief auditor? If so, then would Te member will know from the debate we had in estim- that individual have to terminate their prior position? ates that staf have been added in the three-year cycle of budgets to accomplish those objectives. I think that’s…. Hon. B. Ralston: Te person who accepts this position Te Mining Jobs Task Force also…. It was a process will not be entitled to hold any other position or appoint- where a number of industry experts, whether manage- ment. It’s intended to be a full-time job. It would be incon- ment, labour, environmental or Indigenous people, also sistent with any other employment in any aspect of the had that as one of their recommendations. Tat’s indeed industry. the template that the previous minister was following and that I continue to follow. T. Shypitka: Tanks to the minister for the answer. I So yes, it is a topic of consideration for the ministry, would assume, then, that they would have to terminate but we are working hard on it, and we are making what I to get this job. What is the salary for this position? Does regard as progress. remuneration come directly from Ministry of Energy and Mines? I think that he’s already stated that, but just to be T. Shypitka: No more questions for section 1. clear: what is the salary, if indeed this does come from the Ministry of Energy and Mines? Section 1 approved. Hon. B. Ralston: I’m advised that the salary range On section 2. would be in what’s called band 4, and that ranges from $90,000 to $118,000. Te selection of an exact salary with- T. Shypitka: With the chief auditor position in section in that band would depend upon the experience and qual- 2.1, will the chief auditor be employed by the ministry? ifcations of the hiring committee who are making the [4:45 p.m.] recommendation to the deputy and to the minister.

Hon. B. Ralston: Te chief auditor will be appointed by T. Shypitka: Depending on qualifcations, but not guar- the minister upon recommendation from the deputy min- anteed that there would be mining qualifcations or exper- ister. ience therein. [4:55 p.m.] T. Shypitka: Tank you to the minister. I realize that Going to section 2.1, where will the chief auditor be the chief auditor will be appointed by the minister, but I’m situated on the ministry organizational chart? Will he or asking: who pays the salary? Is it coming from the ministry she report to the DM, the ADM, the minister? Where does itself or is it outside of the ministry? he sit in all of that?

Hon. B. Ralston: Te chief auditor will be paid from the Hon. B. Ralston: She or he will report to the executive ministry budget. director of compliance, audit and enforcement, within the ministry, and the division within the ministry is the mines T. Shypitka: Tat opens up a few more questions here. health, safety and enforcement division. 12110 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020

T. Shypitka: Okay. So reporting to the executive dir- Mines, from the DM all the way down to the Clerk? Does ector of compliance and enforcement — I’m just thinking this not suggest that the people, the public servants serving where else we should go here with that one. Since the pos- the people of B.C. cannot be trusted? ition…. Speaking to 2.1 of the amendment, it says: “Te [5:05 p.m.] minister may not designate any of the following persons as the chief auditor: (a) the chief inspector; (b) the chief per- Hon. B. Ralston: Tere was some consideration or dis- mitting ofcer; (c) an inspector.” cussion about moving this position outside of the ministry. Since the chief auditor position cannot be flled by an But the decision, which I think and I’m convinced is the inspector, it seems that the position cannot be flled with right one, was to keep this position within the ministry. someone with knowledge of permitting or the bible of Tis person will have statutory decision-making powers mining in B.C., which is the mining code. How will this and therefore achieve the objectives that are set out for the auditor, without having knowledge of mines, perhaps — chief auditor. I think we’ll get to that as we deal with sub- not guaranteed, right? — permitting and internal process sequent sections — what the duties of the chief auditor will be capable of determining good things and bad things be — but it will meet the objectives that were identifed in happening? Does the minister not understand how tech- previous considerations of the plan of the ministry. nical the processes are and that this auditor will evaluate? Is he actually prepared to hire someone with no knowledge T. Shypitka: Well, speaking about compliance and of the subject matter to evaluate that subject matter? enforcement being removed away from the ministry, was [5:00 p.m.] that not part of the Auditor General’s recommendations — to remove it completely from the ministry? If so, why Hon. B. Ralston: Te interpretation of sub 2.1(2) that hasn’t the government acted on that? I’m given and rely upon is that the chief auditor will not be able to be simultaneously the chief inspector nor simul- Hon. B. Ralston: Te member mentions the Auditor taneously the chief permitting ofcer nor simultaneously General’s report, which indeed did recommend removing an inspector. So they might have that as something that this function from the ministry. He may recall — he may they’ve done in the past. Tey might move from one of not — that the predecessor MLA in his seat, Bill Bennett, those positions to being chief auditor, but that would be a who was the Mines Minister at the time, very stridently matter for the recommendation of the deputy minister to and vehemently dismissed that suggestion — really didn’t the minister. even consider it. I suppose the member wants to create an impression [5:10 p.m.] that somehow the person would be an unqualifed person. Te staf had extensive consultation with the staf of I don’t think there’s really any basis for that, other than the Auditor General. It was decided that a better solution purely speculative. Maybe it satisfes him to make that was to embed and put those functions within the ministry kind of speculation, but it’s not factual. in the form that we’re doing. It would achieve the same objectives that the Auditor General’s staf were concerned T. Shypitka: Not practical, but not guaranteed as well. about in the report. Tat’s why that recommendation As the minister stated earlier, there are no guarantees on wasn’t followed, and that’s why this structure is being any specifc technical skills or any mining experience that adopted and recommended in this legislation. the chief auditor will need to have to be hired by this, and he’s making recommendations to the executive director of T. Shypitka: Of course I remember my predecessor compliance and enforcement, which will then, I presume, being opposed to removing C&E out of the ministry. We spin of to the assistant deputy minister or the deputy min- were heckled by the now government for those considera- ister and then eventually to the minister, and you can see tions. I’m glad to see full circle and government coming to how you could get a circle of bureaucracy here. a good conclusion on that. If one of the people in that chain that does have the I kind of got sidetracked there, because the minister experience doesn’t agree, then it could go back and could gave me an answer I wasn’t expecting. I don’t think he go around in a vicious circle. Tis is some of the bureau- answered my question. Are there any other ministries that cracy that we want to try to avoid. Now, under all good have the same process of a ministry auditor, an annual conditions and all things being good, this may be okay, but plan and an independent audit unit? this is what we’re trying to get questions on here today. Te next question will be pertaining to section 2.3, and Hon. B. Ralston: Internal audit is a very common func- that is: what other ministries have this same process of a tion of most ministries, if not all — certainly Environment, ministry auditor, an annual plan, a separate independent for example, and there’s a number of others that come to audit unit process? Are there any other examples in the mind. It’s certainly a…. For a regulator, an internal audit ministries in B.C. that have this type of process, and does process is part of the accountability process. Te diference this not refect on the staf of the Ministry of Energy and here is this has been put forward in this legislation giving Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12111 the person, she or he, who occupies the position a formal eral, independent from Energy and Mines, and could this mandate and statutory authority to act. So it strengthens still be an option? the position within the ministry, and it therefore gives fur- ther strength to the recommendations that that person Hon. B. Ralston: It’s a multi-part answer here. Te Aud- may bring forward. itor General, under the act, still retains jurisdiction to [5:15 p.m.] audit this ministry or any other one. Indeed, there will be a follow-up audit to the audit that was discussed earlier. T. Shypitka: Of course there are audits in other minis- Secondly, the Auditor General doesn’t have the specifc tries, all internalized. Tis one’s independent, outside, so expertise in mining that the chief auditor will have and special treatment here. It makes one wonder if government the ministry will have. Tirdly, the chief auditor has fur- is supportive of this industry or not, whether it embraces ther powers than the Auditor General has, in the sense it, despite $8 billion a year in revenue. Why this special that, for example, if there’s a safety problem encountered treatment for mining and not anything else? in an audit, the chief auditor will have the power — and that’s discussed in some of the subsequent amendments Hon. B. Ralston: Well, I give the MLA on the opposite we’re going to deal with — to make an order correcting side full credit. He does continue to make assertions that that immediately. have no basis in fact. I support mining. Te government Te Auditor General has the power to make recom- supports mining. Tat’s why we instituted the Mining Jobs mendations, which are passed on to the ministry, and they Task Force. Tat’s why we are implementing this legisla- can act on them or not. Typically, they do act on them, but tion. there’s nothing obligatory about acting on those recom- Tis is to have someone who will examine the regulat- mendations. So that’s an enhanced power that the chief ory framework carefully. It’s essential for those investors auditor will have, which we will discuss in some of the later who would look to British Columbia in an ESG lens — that amendments that are before the House. is an environment, social and governance lens — increas- [5:25 p.m.] ingly a consideration for major investors, whether they’re pension funds or BlackRock, some of the big pools of S. Furstenau: Tanks for that. I look forward to that equity throughout the fnancial world. conversation later on. It provides that assurance that there is regulatory con- Could the minister confrm that it’s correct that Energy, sistency. Where regulations are not necessary, there will be Mines and Petroleum Resources has reorganized into two a recommendation from this person to streamline the pro- main units: the mines competitiveness and authorizations cess. So it’s a focus on the regulatory process to achieve division as well as the mines health, safety and enforce- better results by having a person who has a specifc man- ment division? date to do that and to report in to the ministry. Te Mining Jobs Task Force was strongly of the view Hon. B. Ralston: Yes. Tere are indeed two divisions in that this will be a way to make mining more responsive, the way that the member has described them, but partly, have it recognized, both in Canada and internationally, as that is to have a separation of function between the per- one of the premium locations in which to invest. Tis is mitting side and the health, safety and enforcement side. all in aid of elevating, enhancing and supporting British Tere will be two separate lines in the budget. Columbia as an important mining jurisdiction. Tat’s why Te feeling of the Auditor General in the audit was that we’re doing this. So the premise of the member’s question sometimes permitting and that side of the ministry man- is wrong. aged to accumulate more of the resources. Tis imposes a separation and the ability to compare the two budgets so S. Furstenau: I appreciate the opportunity to ask a few that there will be some continuing focus on the import- questions on this bill. I’m going to just jump back a little ance of health, safety and enforcement and not mixing that bit to section 2.1. I know we’re still in this general realm. with permitting, as within the budget. [5:20 p.m.] Te Auditor General’s report on compliance and S. Furstenau: Tank you to the minister for that re- enforcement in the mining sector really focused on a num- sponse and clarity. ber of concerns, but one of the concerns that was raised by I guess my question is…. Te decision around putting the former Auditor General was the concern about regu- the chief permitting ofcer in the competitiveness division latory capture. as opposed to in the mines health, safety and enforcement Coming back to the question of where this new chief division…. Tis speaks to the kind of issues of public trust auditor will be housed, currently it will be housed within that were raised very much by the Auditor General’s report the Ministry of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources. in 2015. Can the minister just explain why the permitting My question to the minister is: was there consideration of ofcer is not housed in the health, safety and enforcement housing this as a unit within the Ofce of the Auditor Gen- division of the ministry? 12112 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020

[5:30 p.m.] mining. And fourthly, monitor mining extraction activ- ity to achieve the maximum extraction with the minim- Hon. B. Ralston: I think the member has the premise um environmental disturbance. Tose are the values that correct, but the way in which this works better, according are set out in the health, safety and reclamation code to the Auditor General, is to separate the chief permitting that are obligatory when it comes to guiding mining in ofcer, who is responsible, as the name implies, for the the province. start and getting mines going and running…. To have them in a separate division from the health, safety and S. Furstenau: Just down to section 2.5 on audits, could enforcement was to avoid all of the budget being eaten up the minister just give some sense of what would trigger an by the permitting side of the ministry and neglecting the audit — what conditions, specifcally? health, safety and enforcement side. [5:45 p.m.]

[R. Chouhan in the chair.] Hon. B. Ralston: Generally, the way in which the chief auditor will proceed will be to develop an audit plan. Tat Tat was the view of the audit by the Auditor General, involves receiving the input of stakeholders, the industry, and that’s why the recommendation, initially, was to take Indigenous nations and communities. It’s an open process. the auditing function outside the ministry. Tat has not Ten an audit plan will be developed, depending on what been followed. But what we are proposing in this legisla- are identifed as priorities. tion is to have the two functions separated, with separate For example, afer Mount Polley, there were a number budgets, so that the health, safety and enforcement side is of directions about the disposition of tailings and how independent of the other side and that some of the chal- that was to be done. Te chief auditor could direct an lenges that the Auditor General commented on critically audit of subsequent developments here in the province, will not result. being informed by, also, subsequent changes in standards, whether Canadian or international. So it would be guided S. Furstenau: On section 2.2, the authority of the by public appetite and interest, and by the interests and chief auditor, it says: “Te chief auditor may conduct goals of citizens here in the province. All of that would be audits for the purpose of evaluating the efectiveness taken into account, and a plan would be prepared. of…(a) the regulatory framework…(b) policies, pro- My experience on the Public Accounts Committee, as grams, practices….” My question to the minister is: the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee for a few should we defne public interest in relation to this sec- years, was that the Auditor General, to give an example, tion or, indeed, to this act overall? would develop a plan over multiple years and then move to act on that plan. Tat, I think, would be the likely course Hon. B. Ralston: Te focus for the chief auditor would of the audits that would be engaged in by the chief auditor. be on the regulatory framework for mining and the pro- But that would be up to her or him at their discretion. grams and all practices and actions that create that frame- work. So it wasn’t felt necessary to add a defnition of pub- S. Furstenau: Just to be clear, it would be the auditor’s lic interest to the obligations of the chief auditor. Te man- discretion on pursuing an audit, not the minister’s discre- date of the chief auditor, I think, is fairly carefully laid out tion? Or, as you point out, like with a committee. Would or circumscribed, and that will be, in our view, the most a committee be able to recommend an audit? Would it be efective way for the chief auditor to proceed and the way if there’s enough public pressure? Would that trigger an in which the public interest will be served best. audit? Or is it just the auditor himself or herself who has the discretion to trigger an audit? S. Furstenau: I guess just a follow-up on that with the [5:50 p.m.] minister. How is it ensured in the Mines Act generally, then, that the public interest is served? If it’s not defned Hon. B. Ralston: Yes, the chief auditor will have the for the chief auditor to be looking at, how can the public discretion and the obligation to devise an audit plan that feel that the public interest is being considered and served cannot be interfered with. Te minister will not be able in the activities of this ministry and this industry? to direct an audit, nor will anyone else. But in devis- [5:35 p.m. - 5:40 p.m.] ing that plan, the chief auditor will receive representa- tions from all quarters. Obviously, the maturity and the Hon. B. Ralston: Te health, safety and reclamation judgment and the quality of the person that’s hired will code, which is the main regulation guiding mining be such that they will want to consider those repres- activity, has four purposes. One is to protect employee entations carefully and come to their own independent health. Two — protect the public from all risks of min- decision as to what should be audited. ing. Tese are summary. Tese are not verbatim. Tree is One would expect a public ofcial would be responsive to protect and reclaim land and watercourses afected by to public opinion. Te audit plan will be published. If Monday, July 20, 2020 British Columbia Debates 12113 there’s a disagreement about that, then that would be the We found out earlier that the chief auditor is going subject of public debate. Tat’s how it will go forward. to receive a salary somewhere between $90,000 and $118,000. What will be the budget of the chief auditor’s S. Furstenau: It seems, in the bill, that the purpose of ofce in total? the audit process is focused on evaluating the regulatory framework tied to a mines operation. It’s quiet on whether Hon. B. Ralston: I’m not sure that this is an appropriate an audit can evaluate the role and decisions of a chief question. It’s more a fnance and estimates question. I’ll inspector or a permitting ofcer. Can the minister please endeavour to answer it anyway, unless the Chair says that clarify whether the auditor would have jurisdiction to I shouldn’t. audit the chief permit ofcer or the chief inspector? Tere is a budget for the division, but the specifc details of the budget for that ofce have not yet been worked out. Hon. B. Ralston: Te chief auditor would have the It will be a stafed ofce with the resources necessary to power to audit the policies, programs, practices and accomplish the legislative goals that are being set out here. actions to fulfl the objectives of that framework. Tat would involve not auditing the chief inspector, for T. Shypitka: Well, we found out that the chief auditor example, but the actions taken by the chief inspector salary will be coming out of the ministry. Tis audit unit, would be the subject of audit — and those reporting to the I’m assuming, is coming out of the ministry as well. So I’d chief inspector and the actions that they have taken. assume the minister would know what the budget was for It’s, perhaps, a fne distinction. What’s intended is that that audit unit. Can the minister tell me how many full- the regulatory framework and the actions taken within time employees will be in the audit unit? that framework would be subject to audit but not the indi- [6:00 p.m.] vidual chief inspector, in this case, in the example that the member has chosen. Hon. B. Ralston: In Budget 2019, some of the $20 mil- lion was set aside over a three-year period for implement- T. Shypitka: I want to go back a little bit here to 2.1, I ing some of these reforms that are set out in the Mining guess. We found out earlier that the chief auditor salary Jobs Task Force. Just how much will be allocated to this will be somewhere between $90,000 and $118,000, particular ofce, given that the legislation has yet to depending on experience and…. pass…. I’m optimistic but by no means certain that it will pass, given that this is a debate in the legislature. But when Te Chair: Member, just a second. Te minister is and if it does pass, then a budget will be worked upon, and providing some clarifcation. it will come forward in the usual process. But at this stage, when the legislation has not been passed, a specifc budget Hon. B. Ralston: Could the Chair give some guidance? has not yet been set. We’ve been moving around. I thought we’d dealt with sec- tion 2.1. We’ve dealt with section 2.2. Tere has been T. Shypitka: So no real idea on exactly what this is going debate on section 2.3, section 2.4. It doesn’t seem…. Per- to cost. haps you could give guidance. Are each of these sections Te minister mentioned the $20 million that was the subject of an individual vote, or is it one vote for sec- aforded to the ministry to be separated between compli- tion 2? In that case, that would be helpful. ance and enforcement and permitting and authorizations. Can the minister then tell me if this money would come Te Chair: Let’s deal with section 2 frst. from the compliance and enforcement side? I don’t see too much in this bill that actually enhances permitting any- T. Shypitka: It’s a question on section 2, Chair. where, so would this all be coming exclusively from com- pliance and enforcement? Te Chair: Is it on section 2, Member? [5:55 p.m.] Hon. B. Ralston: Yes, the audit unit will be in the health, safety and enforcement division of the ministry. T. Shypitka: Sorry? Okay. I’m just…. T. Shypitka: So for those full-time employees inside the Te Chair: Member, continue. mining unit that will be hired on, I guess, how will that look? Will they be appointed or will they be hired out T. Shypitka: Can I give my question, Chair? through either private or public sector? [6:05 p.m.] Te Chair: Yes, please proceed. Hon. B. Ralston: I thank the member for the question. T. Shypitka: Okay. Tank you, Chair. Te staf will be a combination of public servants, who will 12114 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 20, 2020 be hired into the unit, and also contracted private experts or the chief inspector. Unless the member can provide an with specialized knowledge. For example, if there were to example of where that might be the case, it’s difcult to see be an audit of tailings, there might be a need to contract how that would even come about. experts who understand that particular subject matter. T. Shypitka: Well, the minister gave an example a few T. Shypitka: So no appointments — all hired out, either minutes ago about what a confict would look like. So let’s public or private. Will industry professionals be allowed to assume the audit branch, for an example, wants to audit a work for this ofce? mine. Te minister made a reference to a tailings pond. For example, at a tailings pond, you need an engineer, Hon. B. Ralston: Yes, industry and technical experts a hydrologist, etc. If the audit branch hires experts and will be engaged — again, depending on the subject matter. subsequently the ministry wants to hire them for work on another site, are they allowed to do the work, or are they T. Shypitka: Just a question to the minister: if an conficted out from doing work for the ministry? Same industry expert works for a mining company, are they pre- goes for possible confict if they do work for mining com- cluded from working for the audit ofce due to a confict panies. Tere are only so many qualifed people in British of interest? Is this also the case for other ofces, such as Columbia, or is the intent of the audit branch to have all inspectors? these experts in-house? [6:10 p.m.] [6:20 p.m.]

Hon. B. Ralston: Te member’s question was specifc- Hon. B. Ralston: Tere are a couple scenarios here that ally about an industry expert who works for a mining I want to talk about. One would be the position of an company. I doubt very much that an industry expert who expert, say, in mining tailings. Before coming to work for was directly employed by a mining company would be able the unit…. Tey would not be able to audit a tailings to come and work for the ministry. I think what the mem- pond that they had designed as an engineer. Typically in ber is referring to, though, is likely where the audit unit, an audit, there would be a number of sites that might be for example, has contracted an engineering frm to provide audited, but the person who had designed that particular support and expertise. I think that’s what he’s referring to. tailings pond would not be permitted…. It would not be So if I could give an example that’s been provided to permissible for them to, efectively, audit their own work. me. If the audit unit has contracted an engineering frm I think that would be rather obvious. Afer participating to provide support and expertise for the audit of tailings in an audit and the audit being disclosed publicly, would storage facilities, including assisting with an assessment they be able to do other work in the industry or for the of B.C.’s regulatory requirements relative to other jurisdic- audit unit? Yes. tions, the nature of that work, in the example I’ve given, I move that the committee rise, report progress and seek would not put the company in confict for future work leave to sit again. with mining operations or with the ministry. Motion approved. T. Shypitka: Tank you to the minister for the answer. Let’s fip it around then. If an expert does work for the Te committee rose at 6:25 p.m. audit ofce, are they precluded from doing contract work for the chief inspector of mines? What about the chief per- Te House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. mitting ofcer? [6:15 p.m.] Committee of the Whole (Section B), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. Hon. B. Ralston: We were having a discussion about the circumstances in which the example that the member Hon. M. Farnworth moved adjournment of the House. gives might take place. It’s difcult to conceive of a situation where someone Motion approved. employed by the audit unit and responsible for, among many other things, auditing the actions of an inspector, Mr. Speaker: Tis House stands adjourned until 10 a.m. arguably, would then work for the inspector as well. It’s dif- tomorrow. fcult to conceive of how that would happen given that if you’re employed full-time by the audit unit and you have Te House adjourned at 6:26 p.m. specifed duties, you would then work for the inspector Hansard Services, Reporting and Publishing

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