MPs WHO HAVE SPOKEN OUT AGAINST CHURCH CLOSURE: COVID REGULATIONS DEBATE, PMQs AND OTHER DEBATES

COVID REGULATIONS DEBATE

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP) Col. 331-32 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-ECF47CC2-973E-45DE-9FA3-14E904BFE52A

Every one of us in this House has received numerous emails and telephone calls about the closure of church services. I understand that, and I am making a plea to the Prime Minister for that to be reviewed. For many people, it is the only outing they have in the week and the only opportunity to have any contact with people for prayer and contemplation. In , churches have been able to remain open through the use of masks and hands, face, space. Could that be looked at? I believe that people across the of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would appreciate that, especially in .

Sir Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab) Col. 336-37 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-829B6760-893A-4B90-A823-6985DD6FDF84

Nobody votes for these regulations today with anything other than a heavy heart, on both sides of the House. I did not come into Parliament to restrict people’s freedoms, to prevent people meeting their friends and their loved ones, or to decide when people can and cannot leave their home or how many people may attend a funeral. I do not want Parliament to be closing businesses, gyms, bars or places of worship. Frankly, I do not want Parliament to be legislating on any of these issues, least of all after the British public have made so many enormous sacrifices already.

These regulations will have a serious impact on faith communities and places of worship. There is real concern across faiths about the lack of consultation, and I hope that the Government can urgently address that, including by convening the places of worship taskforce.

Sir (Gainsborough) (Con) Col. 338 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-44395329-CE9E-4067-862F-CBEBC5D6BF31

The leaders of every single faith community have now written to the Government asking for the evidence behind the closure of churches during the next four weeks. The fact is there is almost certainly no evidence. Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that all the faith communities —Muslims, Jews, Christians—have really done their best to comply, through cleansing and in every other way, and will he demand of the Government now that the churches, mosques and temples are opened as soon as possible?

Sir Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab) Col. 338 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-86D8DFA8-3CFD-4C07-A404-80157D83785A

On the question of whether all faiths have done their level best to comply, I do agree. A huge amount of effort has gone in, in places of worship and many other places, to try to defeat the virus. The British public have done a huge amount, and so have all the institutions and faith organisations, to try to keep the virus down, but the truth is that it is out of control. The taskforce needs to be convened so that these issues can be discussed during the next few days and weeks, because this is a very deep issue for many people.

Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD) Col. 338 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-8EB6F009-CDD5-4052-9A3C-BF9CAE51245D

Does he accept that, for churches and other faith communities, although the buildings themselves may not be sacred, what goes on within them is? We have noticed over the last few months the importance of verbal and non-verbal cues when people are gathered together, which allows them to help one another when they are mentally and emotionally struggling. While I understand the logic behind the closure of these places, it is potentially hugely damaging to people’s mental health and wellbeing. Does he agree that this needs to be reviewed at the soonest possible opportunity?

Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con) Col. 342 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-60DE2D41-6F77-4691-AE4A-1C3C54FF2588

I want to make one point about public worship, echoing the concerns of others. My concern is that the Government today making it illegal to conduct an act of public worship, for the best of intentions, sets a precedent that could be misused by a Government in future with the worst of intentions, and that has unintended consequences. The covid-secure remembrance service in Worcester cathedral will now be turned into a pre-recorded online service. Surely, the men and women who laid down their lives for our freedom deserve better than that… The public and Parliament want to support the Government to take the right decisions, and to do that we need to have the right figures, the right data and the proper information.

Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con) Col. 344 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-5F6637A6-473F-48BA-8B07-5CC472E8CBBE

Were it possible to table amendments, I would have done so. I have been to three church services recently. One was for a funeral, one was the morning service on Sunday, and the other was the monthly communion at St Margaret’s, where I am the parliamentary warden. All those services were covid-safe. I believe that if we have to come back to this again, the Government ought to be able, with the faith leaders—the Jews, the Muslims, the Christians and other faith groups—to find a way for them to provide for at least a body of people to be together with the celebrant, with others participating remotely.

Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con) Col. 349-50 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-22EFB865-8288-44A5-96AA-5B951F5CD1C1

I am concerned about places of collective worship… I understand the logic behind proscribing those activities, but we have to treat the British public as adults and individuals with autonomy and agency. I respectfully disagree with the decisions that have been made on those fronts, and I hope very much, particularly if this sadly has to be continued beyond the beginning of December, that they are looked at again.

Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD) Col.350 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-1DB4F55D-8D6F-4201-B93B-C9C1C764A082

I add my support to comments that have been made by Members on both sides of the House about looking again at the regulations surrounding collective acts of worship and publishing the evidence to show whether they are a source of infections and outbreaks… That is critical to people’s mental health and physical wellbeing.

Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con) Col.355 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-EF1DE5BB-CAAF-4027-AC2E-2769B32AF60C

Do the Government have the right to ban acts of collective worship? I am glad that at this point the Churches are standing up against this and objecting, because earlier in the year I thought they possibly went a little too quietly… We cannot ask people to follow rules that patently make no sense and expect them to have respect for what is being done. So I have a fundamental problem with much of what we are being asked to do here.

Judith Cummins (Bradford South) (Lab) Col. 356 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-0FC0BFD4-6864-40C0-9E7F-22D1043D1C5A

The Government need to plan and to deal with social isolation and loneliness, particularly among older people and those with caring responsibilities. Many of my constituents across many faiths have asked me to tell the Government and the Prime Minister that collective acts of worship are essential and should not be made illegal by any Government: they are an essential part of their faith and an essential part of their lives. I ask the Government to reconsider the ban on collective worship.

Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab) Col. 358 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-C9038CCE-F876-42B2-994F-4CF7540A59F0

I agree wholeheartedly with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Sir Keir Starmer) and others across the House about the importance of people being able to worship, and I hope that the restriction will be reviewed.

Jane Hunt (Loughborough) (Con) Col. 358 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-BFF30AFD-25D3-42F6-A3A9-8702A33A239E

There is a hard task ahead for many during November. There are a number of religious festivals and commemorations which in other years have attracted huge crowds and gatherings, such as Diwali, Advent and the birthday of Guru Nanak. These are often times when families get together to celebrate their faith. That will not be possible in private homes this year, but I still press for churches and places of worship to be allowed to open for those specific events in order to support their communities.

Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordhire) (Con) Col. 363 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-522EF1A7-D604-4441-8624-8FE5B7ED9D45

As the Second Church Estates Commissioner, I am of course concerned about the lack of collective worship, and I think that churches are some of the safest places I have been in recent weeks.

Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con) Col. 363 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-FBE3FD5C-DEC4-4FC4-A38C-D70C51509FDE

There are so many clear nonsenses in the regulations. I and many others in the House, I am sure, are getting emails from gym owners and users, people who enjoy outdoor archery and those concerned about the golf situation, and a lot from churchgoers.

Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP) Col. 364 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-0BA801D4-260C-4549-A251-E862E9CCFEA6

[I have received] a letter signed by 1,500 managers of church organisations, ministers and people of religion opposing these regulations and asking why on earth the Government are closing churches.

Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con) Col. 364 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-ECEE6500-F8A6-4FC6-B7EF-4DEB64111817

An overwhelming number of the responses that I have had are from churchgoers, and I will develop that point very briefly. Congregations that go to churches, synagogues, mosques and temples are adherent, sensible, disciplined people. To treat them as anything but is, I am afraid, nothing but an insult.

Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con) Col. 364-65 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-5F17BC34-6CDC-4D4C-9234-C5F74B6A243B

I want to mention one point for which evidence is all-important. The leaders of all the faith communities have written to the Prime Minister demanding evidence that people attending church services are spreading covid. I know there is no evidence. The chief scientific adviser to the Government has confirmed there is no evidence. Everybody knows, if they go to their local church or, indeed, their mosque, that mask wearing and social distancing are in force. Even in mosques, my friends tell me, people are bringing their own prayer mats. There is no evidence for this ban. The ban comes because the Government say, “If we’re going to stop people going to pubs, we have to stop people going to churches or mosques or synagogues.” There is no evidence.

However, when I intervened on the Prime Minister a couple of days ago, he assured me that this was only a temporary ban on religious services. He took the trouble to come up to me before this debate and say, “Edward, we’re going to get churches open.” I said, “When?” He said, “Soon.” I understand that contacts are taking place with the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Archbishop of Westminster to try to get the churches open as soon as possible.

On that basis, and on that basis only—that this is a temporary measure, that the Government will provide evidence and that the churches will open on 2 December—I am prepared to vote for this measure today. I will do so on that basis and on that promise. It is a fundamental human right in any society—we are signatories to the convention on human rights—for people to be able to go to communal worship. We cannot just tell religious people, “Sometime in the future you’ll be able to go to a religious service.” That is not good enough for them. They want to be able to have that communal worship, and to have it now.

It is not good enough for the Government—I am looking at the Health Secretary—just to say that we are all in this together and that, because they are stopping people playing golf or going to bars, religious people have to be under the same restrictions. Provide the evidence. I have received an assurance that churches, synagogues and mosques will open before 2 December, or at least by 2 December. On that basis, and on that basis only, I will vote with the Government.

Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con) Col. 366 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-66B5FC3A-63B1-4CD6-B497-6995A2A36166

I acknowledge that prioritising schooling involves some trade-offs, and we must acknowledge that any time people get together there is a risk of transmission of this virus, but I would ask for special reconsideration in two areas: non-contact outdoor sports and, as so many colleagues and others have mentioned, religious services. Obviously, not everyone has faith, but for some who do, the solace that they receive from attending church or another place of worship with other people is as important for their mental health as other mental health services, which we rightly prioritise and will keep going come what may.

Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con) Col. 369 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-21023FAF-9F6D-4624-96D8-20CCEA0561B6

Like so many of my fellow Members, I regret that we are putting privations and restrictions on the huge numbers of people who wish to worship and express their faith, and I say to the Secretary of State that I hope that the commitment that was given to my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) will be honoured.

Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con) Col. 373 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-5222D290-02F9-40C6-ADFA-DCCA84F366FC

…the letter from the leaders of all the major faiths is the single largest plea in numbers of lives and wellbeing touched. The voices supporting visits to care homes, gyms and other things precious to constituents are also important within an acceptance of the second lockdown. Such voices must be heard. In cities such as ours, with a cathedral, dozens of churches, a handful of mosques and adherents of the Hindu, Jewish and Sikh faiths, the freedom to pray is welcome, but the freedom to worship together is one that I strongly support. I urge the Prime Minister to ensure that that comes back with a return to local tiers on 2 December.

Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con) Col. 375 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-8F2685F3-A059-4053-931C-4B897D342406

There is no scientific basis for stopping and, indeed, criminalising people of faith joining in collective worship when they do so in a safe fashion, forgoing the right to join in communal hymn singing or music to limit the risk of transmission. That goes beyond that which is proportional.

Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op) Col. 377 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/94B2F2F9-3876-490A-96CA- 6066CBFCFB37/PublicHealth#contribution-52AF8C5F-EF5D-4226-8A90-0BB5F94B17E5

John Steinbeck wrote: “A sad soul can kill you far quicker than a germ.” That is not entirely biologically correct, but we understand the point. Loneliness and isolation extract a heavy mental and physical toll, so will the Secretary of State guarantee a mental health plan for the winter? Will services continue to be accessible, either online or face to face? At times of crisis, many of our constituents find solace in faith, communion and congregational prayer. Churches, mosques, temples, gurdwaras and synagogues have gone to great lengths, often at great cost to volunteers, to make themselves covid secure. We have Diwali coming up soon. Many mosques have been in touch with me to ask, if individual prayer is allowed in a church or masjid with social distancing in place, why not congregational prayer?

PRIME MINISTER’S QUESTIONS https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-11-04/debates/8F923AAF-2F65-44A6-985F- C03BC2C4BB32/Engagements

Col316 - Stuart Anderson – Wolverhampton South West

Does the Prime Minister recognise the importance of places of worship to my constituents in Wolverhampton and the rest of the country? Does he agree that they should open as soon as practically possible, and will he commend the work that has been done in those places to make them covid-secure? [908157]

COVID-19 UPDATE https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2020-11-02/debates/6AF57346-80F3-491D-AA67- 9EF31B9B3B26/Covid-19Update?highlight=worship#contribution-CEE243E9-E56C-4B7B-BAF4- 2164FF8E9D92

Col 41 – Sara Britcliffe – Hyndburn

I have listened carefully and engaged in many detailed briefing sessions about this latest escalation. To respond to my constituents and questions from Members across the House, can the Prime Minister give some clarification on the rationale for gym closures and restrictions on places of worship, especially as so many in Hyndburn and Haslingden have worked extremely hard to make sure that they are covid-secure?

Col 48 – Imran Hussain – Bradford East

Many of my constituents from all faiths have raised serious concerns about the restrictions that will effectively close religious institutions at a time when people need more than ever the comfort and security that their faith provides, putting a heavy burden on people’s mental health. Places of worship have gone to great lengths to put covid-secure measures in place and have demonstrated that congregational prayers can safely happen, with Bradford Council for Mosques in particular leading on that work. I urge the Prime Minister to look again at places of worship and more measured policies. Given that they have had no financial support since the beginning of the pandemic, will he ensure that they get the financial support they need?

Col 50 – Dr Rupa Huq – Ealing Central and Acton

I have heard what the Prime Minister said about congregational worship for faith groups, and it strikes me sitting here that the measures taken at Ealing abbey—four to a pew with every other pew roped off, hand sanitiser and a one-way system—are exactly what we have in this place. Does this not therefore seem contradictory? Does he have any message of hope for the monks there? As someone who might be marching down the aisle himself, does he have any message for the weddings industry? I have an Asian wedding costumier. She thought she would be ruined by the restrictions, but now weddings are completely gone. Does he have any hope for any of these people?

Col 59 – Sir Edward Leigh – Gainsborough

We are almost at the end of this statement now and the Prime Minister has answered the questions with his characteristic charm and skill, but, however strong, I am sure he will not resist the offer of more help and hope. So will he join me at daily mass in Westminster cathedral tomorrow? Would he like to witness the extreme social distancing, the constant cleansing after services and the mask wearing—all factors taken far more seriously there than almost anywhere else? Would he like to respond to Cardinal Vincent Nichols and give him the evidence as to why there is any possibility, after all these measures, of religious services spreading covid? Could the Prime Minister offer some hope to the faith communities? Could he perhaps reply to the letter I have sent to him, where we suggest further compromises, for instance, whereby we would have to apply by email before we attended services? Can he offer us any hope at all?

COV-19 DEBATE https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2020-11-02/debates/63D354A2-02A0-42C3-81B8- 6B8FB61616CC/Covid-19?highlight=worship#contribution-6B2B2DBD-D502-4448-9435- 456EBBE82DDD

Col 107 – Jim Shannon – Strangford

The Minister is not here, but there is a good understudy—the Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury, the hon. Member for Castle Point ()—in her place taking notes. I ask the Government to reconsider the closure of churches. My email inbox has been full of requests on their behalf. Our lockdown in Northern Ireland has been successful and we have been able to give people a place to go once a week to meet in unity and pray for the future of this nation—to seek God for strength, peace, comfort, hope, wisdom, forgiveness and even joy at this difficult time.

… We need wisdom, and the call for a National Day of Prayer is for those of Christian faith and others to unite together and pray for the help we so desperately need. We need support for the NHS, businesses and the vulnerable, but we also need to humble ourselves and ask God to make the path straight as we work together to come through this covid winter ahead of us. We must trust God and we must pray for the help we need. I think every one of us here should adhere to that.

Col 107 – Jonathan Ashworth – Leicester South

On the hon. Gentleman’s point about places of worship, a lot of my own constituents have got in touch about our gurdwaras, temples, mosques and churches, and are deeply concerned about this. I hope that before the vote on Wednesday—we will be supporting the lockdown regulations— Ministers can come to the Dispatch Box and give us some reassurances around places of worship. It is a very important issue and I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has raised it.

Col 110 – – North Antrim

Many of those elderly people who have a strong faith are now being told that they cannot go to their places of worship here in Great Britain. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) that there should be a national day of prayer on which the community comes together and our great church buildings sound out praises and prayers to our Almighty God in a way that puts Him first in our nation for the first time in a long time.

Col 111 – Sir – Southend West

I am very glad that the schools are not now locking down, and I do hope that we will do our best to protect vulnerable children. With hope, our churches most certainly should stay open. The Catholic archbishops have called for the publication of the evidence behind the ban; I urge the Government to publish it.

GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO COVID-19 (WESTMINSTER HALL) https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2020-11- 03/debates/20110357000001/GovernmentResponseToCovid-19?highlight=worship#contribution- 748737AA-5326-48FD-A6FB-5AF66BDA9284

Col 77WH-78WH – Jim Shannon – Strangford

I also make a plea for churches. People want to worship and pray together. I would like to know where the data is that says churches must close, because I am not quite sure it is there.

Col 82WH – Chris Green – Bolton West

Regarding places of worship and gyms, what evidence is there to say that they should be closed down? What impact assessments have been made on the closure of gyms, particularly for women? People are concerned about running in the dark, and I think that will have a greater impact on women. The question should not be what assessment the House has made of the Government’s actions on covid, but whether the Government have really considered their own actions.