Wednesday Volume 569 30 October 2013 No. 66

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 30 October 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 901 30 OCTOBER 2013 902 House of Commons Senior Civil Service Staff (Reductions) 2. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): What Wednesday 30 October 2013 assessment he has made of the effect on the functioning of government of reductions in the number of senior civil service staff; and if he will make The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock a statement. [900779] The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster PRAYERS General (Mr Francis Maude): Since April 2010, the number of senior civil servants has reduced by 16% and the senior civil service pay bill has reduced by 20%. Last [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] year, civil servants helped to deliver more than £10 billion in efficiency savings by changing the way in which Whitehall and central Government operate. We are determined to drive even greater value for the taxpayer Oral Answers to Questions while continuing to provide exceptional public services.

Kelvin Hopkins: Is not the truth that Government cuts have seen many senior civil servants take early CABINET OFFICE retirement, with an enormous loss of expertise and capacity, with increasing staff churn and work overloads, The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— leading to problems like the west coast main line franchise chaos, delays in replying to Members’ correspondence Disaster Planning and much else besides?

1. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): What assessment he Mr Maude: I wish to take this opportunity to praise has made of current arrangements for disaster civil servants for the work that they have done. With a planning in the UK; and if he will make a statement. civil service that is significantly smaller than that which [900778] we inherited in May 2010, productivity has improved markedly. The civil service is delivering at least as much The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster as it was before, with fewer people. Engagement scores General (Mr Francis Maude): The primary responsibility have stayed high, and I want to praise them rather than for emergency planning sits with local responders. The run down what they do. Cabinet Office works with other Departments, devolved Administrations and emergency responders to enhance Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): the country’s ability to prepare for, respond to and I join my right hon. Friend in commending the senior recover from emergencies. civil service for operating in the way it does. Does he agree that its capability is not enhanced by the degree of The whole House will want to thank the emergency churn in the top jobs in the civil service, and what will services, local authorities and the Met Office, who did a the Government do to address that? brilliant job working together to prepare effectively for and respond to the effects of Monday’s storm. Mr Maude: There has been concern over a long period about senior civil servants—and not just senior John Mann: What specific mechanisms will the Minister civil servants—not staying in post long enough. We are put in place to ensure that the lessons highlighted in the seeking to address that, and I know that the leadership forthcoming Hillsborough inquest will be incorporated of the civil service takes the issue very seriously. One of in his Department’s policies and practice? the effects of moving to fixed tenure for permanent secretaries will, I suspect, be to lengthen the period they Mr Maude: When the results of that come through, stay in post rather than, as some have feared, shorten it. we will obviously look at them urgently.It was a profoundly tragic event, and many lessons will need to be learned Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): from it. We will look at it seriously when it emerges. Have the Government yet worked out when we will reach the tipping point at which reducing further the Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): In the Minister’s number of senior civil servants will not improve the initial response, he praised responders and local authorities. service they provide but will impinge on it? Will he also praise parish councils—those unpaid heroes in many of our communities—which provide emergency Mr Maude: As I say, there have been significant responses, and encourage those that do not presently do reductions. Productivity has improved and we believe so to create and implement emergency plans? that significantly more productivity can be gained. Current departmental plans show a continued reduction in the Mr Maude: My hon. Friend makes a really good size of the civil service through to May 2015. We are point. A lot of the response needs to be done on an finding different ways of doing things better with fewer extremely local basis. Many parish councils take this people and at lower cost. seriously, with volunteers who rise to the occasion superbly—a huge amount of which happened on Sunday Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Is it not absolutely and Monday in preparation for and in response to the right that the effectiveness of public services is more storm. important than the number of civil servants who are 903 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 904 employed? What measures is my right hon. Friend Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Is the National taking to measure the productivity of civil servants so Citizen Service not heading for that same graveyard of they can no longer be a drag on our economy, but three-word prime ministerial gimmicks like back to enhance it? basics, the third way, the citizens charter, the cones hotline and the big society? Mr Maude: At is best, the civil service is not a drag on the economy; it is an important component of the Mr Hurd: Not for the first time, I could not disagree economy working successfully. The leadership of the more with the hon. Gentleman. NSC is proving its civil service identified significant deficiencies in capability, value across communities. Many Opposition Members which are now being addressed. Frankly, they had been visited the programme over the summer and Opposition left unaddressed for far too long. Urgent action is now Front Benchers have nice words to say about it. We are being taken and we need to drive it through. determined to embed it in the youth sector and for it to be part of the landscape of programmes that try to help National Citizen Service young people achieve their full potential. We are extremely proud of it. [Interruption.] 4. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): What assessment he has made of the work of the National Citizen Service. [900781] Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) was gesticulating as though he was training to 7. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What be an opera singer. I have no idea why, but let us hear assessment he has made of the work of the National from the hon. Gentleman. Citizen Service. [900784] Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): The gesture was The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd): one of frustration and disappointment that some The National Citizen Service is growing fast and is Opposition Members do not seem to understand how proving enormously popular with young people. The valuable the National Citizen Service is. Does my hon. research shows clearly that it helps to develop life skills Friend agree that what Gloucestershire college has been that employers value, and that for every £1 of public doing in my constituency to help people on to this money we invest, society is receiving £3 of value back. wonderful course, which it is now replicating with a mini course for the new sixth form at the Gloucester Nick de Bois: I thank the Minister for that answer. I academy, is an example of how the NCS can spread was privileged to attend a challenge network campaign into the school curriculum too? day in my constituency, where social action projects were put into effective and lasting programmes across the constituency. What steps will the Minister take to Mr Hurd: I could not agree more, in sharp contrast to roll out the National Citizen Service further and expand my response to the hon. Member for Newport West it, and will he join me in congratulating the efforts of (Paul Flynn). I look forward to visiting my hon. Friend Enfield youngsters? in Gloucester to see in practice what he is talking about. The NCS is growing fast. We are seeing schools and colleges embrace it precisely because they see the value Mr Hurd: I certainly join my hon. Friend in to their pupils of participating in a programme that congratulating Enfield youngsters and all youngsters helps young people develop the confidence, self-esteem across the country who have participated in the National and skills that will be valuable to them in life. Citizen Service on their efforts. He may be interested to know that to date the young people have contributed more than 1 million hours of their time to volunteer Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): But and do good work in communities. They get a huge can the Minister confirm that Serco has cut the funding amount out of that process, which is why we are ambitious it makes available to charities under the National Citizen to grow it and have said that we will make at least Service? What impact does the Minister think that will 90,000 places available next year. have on the charities delivering this important initiative?

Stephen Mosley: Over the summer, I was delighted to Mr Hurd: Serco leads a consortium that includes see the excellent work of the National Citizen Service many large and small charities. It is an important provider. team in Chester, who were redecorating Blacon young We manage our providers very carefully, and when there people’s project. Has my hon. Friend made an assessment are signs of underperformance, we take action to protect of the monetary value of the work that NCS volunteers the taxpayer. The hon. Gentleman would not know do for their local communities? anything about that because he represents a party that over time has not represented the taxpayer sufficiently. Mr Hurd: I thank my hon. Friend for the keen In the case of Serco and that consortium, we took interest he has shown in the NCS, and many other hon. action to protect the taxpayer, and I am proud of that. Members who took the time to visit programmes over the summer. As I said, young people have to date contributed more than 1 million hours of their time to Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): Last year, 6,000 places on do good work in their communities. Part of the calculation the NCS summer scheme went unfilled, while youth of £3 back for every £1 we spend is the value attached to services, which provided continuity, stability and a lifeline the voluntary time they are giving. The other part is for many young people, disappeared. With one in three their increased employability, which reflects the life and organisations that provide youth services facing closure, work skills they are gathering through participation. what has the Minister got to say to those young people? 905 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 906

Mr Hurd: First, I congratulate the hon. Lady on her Mr Maude: My hon. Friend is very knowledgeable on promotion. I think she is the fifth shadow Minister I this subject, and everything he says about it must be have faced across this Dispatch Box, and I hope she taken extremely seriously. Yes, there is a point there to enjoys her time. which we need to have proper regard. There is a serious point about cuts to local youth services by local authorities. We have taken over Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): responsibility for youth policy and want to engage with According to the Government’s own figures, 87% of local authorities to try and protect and enhance those small businesses experienced a cyber-security breach services, but the hon. Lady misses a fundamental point last year and were attacked, on average, 17 times, yet about the NCS: it funds grass-roots youth organisations more than four fifths of the Government’s cyber-security across the country to work with young people throughout budget goes on the intelligence services, big business the year—spring, summer and autumn—and therefore and government, leaving small businesses and consumers it is part of the solution. to fend for themselves. Now we learn that the Minister has set up his own wi-fi network in the Cabinet Office to Cyber-Security bypass all that expensive security. When will he stand up for small businesses and consumers and get a grip on 5. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): What cyber-security? progress his Department has made on the cyber- security programme. [900782] Mr Maude: I am glad to say that the most recent rankings of countries in relation to cyber-security had The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster the UK in top position, but we are not at all complacent; General (Mr Francis Maude): We have committed an much more needs to be done. The hon. Lady is very additional £210 million to the national cyber-security interested in the wi-fi arrangements in my office, which programme for 2015-16, underlining our commitment were installed by the Cabinet Office IT supplier and are to tackling cyber threats. This year, we have launched fully compliant. We take all this extremely seriously, but the cyber-security information-sharing partnership and the threats are changing all the time and we need to be increased specialist capability in police forces, and we agile in how we respond to them. are currently setting up UKCERT, the national computer emergency response team. Post Office

Julian Smith: Following the Snowden leaks in the US, 6. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): What recent where a contractor working for Booz Allen was able to discussions he has held with his ministerial colleagues cause untold damage to US and international intelligence on the use of the Post Office as a front office for services, what steps is the Minister taking to put in place Government services. [900783] restrictions on contractors and staff vis-à-vis access to this programme? The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd): The hon. Gentleman will know that the Post Office Mr Maude: My hon. Friend has taken a close interest already delivers a number of valuable front-line services in this matter and made some extremely robust and for the Government, and it has proved successful in helpful comments. We take contractor security extremely competing for contracts. The Cabinet Office’s engagement seriously, and following this breach, which took place in at the moment involves conversations about how the the United States, we are obviously redoubling our Post Office and others might help us to give better efforts to ensure that it is as secure as it can be. support to citizens who are not yet online.

Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): When Mr Reid: The Minister is correct: the Post Office assessing the leaks from Edward Snowden and the already delivers a lot of Government services. It has the reporting by newspapers, including The Guardian, will technology to enable it to back up the Government’s the Minister and the Government take clear account of digital agenda and to be the front office for the Government. the statement from President Barack Obama last week For example, people without internet access could make that some of the activities of the National Security universal credit applications through it. Post offices are Agency in the US raised legitimate questions for friends at the heart of our communities, and I urge the Minister and allies? to encourage all Government Departments to make more use of the Post Office. Mr Maude: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but I would just like to make this point about GCHQ: it Mr Hurd: I hear that message loud and clear. We are comprises very, very dedicated, hard-working Crown engaging with the Post Office and a number of suppliers servants who do incredibly valuable work to protect our about how they can help us with our agenda of encouraging safety and security every day of the week, and they more of our citizens to get online and become digitally deserve solid support from right across the Chamber capable—and to access Government services online, and from both Front Benches. I hope that that will be because that is the direction of travel that we are taking—as made absolutely clear. well as with the assisted digital programme, which will ensure that none of our citizens is left behind in that Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): The Government process. are rightly trying to tighten up on British cyber-security. Does the Minister share my concern that anybody who Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): One weakens encryption methods or puts in back doors area of business that was taken from the post offices exposes us all to greater risk? some time ago was the issuing of TV licences. Has the 907 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 908

Minister had any discussions with his ministerial contacts Mr Hurd: I am very glad to hear that extension to my about bringing that service back to the post offices? hon. Friend’s question, and I certainly accept his invitation. Many old people still do not have access to the internet. We are absolutely determined to try to remove the barriers to small business participation. For example, Mr Hurd: As I have said, our conversation with the we have recently announced the fourth supplier framework Post Office is about the broad agenda of digital by for the procurement of Government cloud technology default, and about how we can get more of our citizens services, and I am delighted to tell him that 84% of online. Some 11 million of them are estimated still to be those suppliers are SMEs. [Interruption.] offline, so that is a big challenge. Alongside that, programmes are necessary to ensure that people who do Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many noisy not want to be online can still access Government private conversations taking place in the Chamber. That digital services. I am sure that the Post Office and others is unfair on the Members asking questions and on the will be able to help us in that process. Ministers who are trying to make their answers heard.

Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Is the Minister aware Topical Questions that the National Federation of SubPostmasters has reported that the income generated by the Government T1. [900793] Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and services that its members provide is fairly small? I am all East Cleveland) (Lab): If he will make a statement on in favour of sub-post offices providing Government his departmental responsibilities. services, but the Government must surely be made to pay for that properly. The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude): My responsibilities as Mr Hurd: Obviously, if post offices are going to Minister for the Cabinet Office are for the public sector provide a service, they need to have the capacity to do efficiency and reform group, civil services issues, industrial that. I have had conversations with postmasters in my relationsstrategyinthepublicsector,Governmenttransparency, area. In the Pinner post office, for example, I have tried civil contingencies, civil society and cyber-security. out the new technology that is helping citizens to get online and access services locally and to become more Tom Blenkinsop: Last Friday afternoon, the Cabinet digitally capable, and I did not get a sense from that Office snuck out details about special advisers, showing postmaster that there was a problem. that there are more of them and that their cost has risen by more than £1 million last year. At a time when the Procurement (SMEs) Government are demanding cuts and claiming that they are necessary, is it right that such profligate spending by 8. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): the Cabinet Office on special advisers is allowed to go What recent steps he has taken to reduce barriers to uncontrolled? small and medium-sized enterprises participating in Mr Maude: The requirements of a coalition Government Government procurement. [900787] mean that there is more requirement for special advisers. Their cost is still only 2% of the cost of the senior civil The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd): service. This Government remain extremely committed to the process of trying to increase the participation of SMEs T2. [900794] Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): in central Government procurement, and we believe What outcomes does my right hon. Friend hope to see that at least an additional £1.5 billion has flowed into from the Open Government Partnership summit being the SME sector through that process since 2010. That held in London tomorrow? represents progress, but we know that there is still a lot to do. Mr Maude: We are looking forward to welcoming to London the representatives of 62 Governments who Mr Bain: The Minister has just claimed that direct have chosen to belong to this unique partnership both spend with SMEs has increased since the last election, between Governments and with civil society organisations. but will he confirm that the recorded rise in the Ministry Transparency is an idea whose time has come, and we of Justice since April 2011 is in fact down to his officials, will celebrate the progression of the open data and including law firms, offering legal aid services? When is transparency agenda over these two days. he going to correct those figures to remove that inaccuracy? Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab): Last Friday Mr Hurd: I am not going to take any lessons from the afternoon, the Cabinet Office finally released some party opposite. What we inherited in terms of SMEs information, but the Government failed yet again to participating in public procurement was no ambition release the Prime Minister’s annual Chequers guest list, and no data. This Government are supplying the ambition which has not now been published since July 2011—an and trying to ensure that the data are as good as they interesting definition of “annual”. This follows repeated can be. We are not taking any lectures from the party failures adequately to answer parliamentary questions that had no ambition and no data. and freedom of information requests about visits to No. 10 by the Prime Minister’s adviser, Lynton Crosby— Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): My hon. Friend despite the Government answering exactly the same is absolutely right to support small businesses, but will questions about other individuals in other Departments. he look at the systems in which small businesses are When are the Government going to release this information, sometimes unable to bid? And may I see him after this including about that cigarette lobbyist running around Question Time to tell him precisely what I mean by that? at the heart of Downing street? 909 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 910

Mr Maude: I am sure that when the hon. Gentleman Mr Maude: There is a limit, and we announced it last was in residence in No. 10 Downing street in the last week. However, it will be subject to change from time to Government—when the degree of transparency was time. virtually nil—it would never have been disclosed, as it will be, that the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): When my right Arran (Katy Clark) was at Chequers helping the then hon. Friend came to office in 2010, what cross-Government Prime Minister to plant a tree. work had been done to tackle fraud, error and debt? Mr Maude: None. I now chair a cross-Government T4. [900797] Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) taskforce on fraud, error and uncollected debt, as a (Con): This time last year, Ministers announced a result of which, in the last year, we saved the taxpayer radical overhaul of facility time. With Royal Mail, £6.5 billion that would otherwise have been wasted. teacher and fire brigade strikes inflicting disruption on the public and with the appalling behaviour of Len McCluskey in Grangemouth, FOI data I have received PRIME MINISTER show that the overall public subsidy from Whitehall to the unions has gone up, not down. What further action The Prime Minister was asked— is my right hon. Friend taking? Engagements

Mr Maude: The events at Grangemouth illustrate the Q1. [900763] Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): problems that can arise when full-time union officials If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday are paid for by the employer. I am glad to be able to tell 30 October. my hon. Friend that the number of full-time union The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning officials on the civil service payroll has halved and that I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. the cost has more than halved. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today. T3. [900796] Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): In response to the question of my hon. Friend the Sheryll Murray: Under this Government, there are Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi more than 1 million new jobs. That has happened with Onwurah), the Minister said that he took very seriously the help of companies such as Lantoom Quarry in the threat of cybercrime to small and medium-sized South East Cornwall, which is investing in and training businesses. However, cybercrime has cost SMEs young people. We were told that the Government had a £800 million in the last year, yet the Government are programme that would clearly lead to the disappearance giving only £5 million to spend on it across the board. of a million jobs. Is it not time for the Opposition, who What are the Government doing to tackle that said that, to admit that they were wrong and to apologise? problem? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The British economy is on the mend. We see Mr Maude: I accept that awareness of cyber-threats unemployment coming down and the number of people by all businesses is still too low. As the rankings show, in work going up, and our growth rate is now forecast to the threat is higher in Britain than it is in most countries, be almost three times as fast as the German growth rate. but awareness is not good enough and too many businesses The Labour party and the Leader of the Opposition have left themselves vulnerable. We are working hard to told us that we would lose a million jobs, but the Leader raise their awareness. My right hon. Friends in the of the Opposition was absolutely wrong, and it is time Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are that he got to his feet and told us that he was wrong. leading that work, but there is much more that we can and should do. Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): Having listened to the Select Committee hearing yesterday, will the Prime Minister tell us what is the difference between Mr Speaker: I call David Ruffley—not here. his—[Interruption.]

Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Will the Mr Speaker: Order. May I just say to the Prime Government support my private Member’s Bill on Minister’s Parliamentary Private Secretary that his role 29 November, which is intended to give charitable status is to nod his head in the appropriate places, and to fetch to religious institutions? Will they support it? and carry notes? No noise is required. Edward Miliband: Having listened to the Select The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd): Committee hearing yesterday, can the Prime Minister I have already told my hon. Friend that we will not. I tell us what is the difference between his policy on understand that there is a lot of concern on both sides energy and that of the energy companies? of the House about the Plymouth Brethren case, on which we all united in wanting to see a quick and speedy The Prime Minister: Not a word of apology for resolution to that issue. predicting that a million jobs would be lost! The Opposition got it wrong, and they cannot bear to admit it. [Interruption.] T5. [900798] Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): The coalition agreement pledged to limit the Mr Speaker: Order. The questions must be heard and number of SpAds—special advisers. Given that the the answers must be heard, however long it takes. Some number has risen to 97, what limit do the Government people need to get used to the fact that that is what the actually want? public would like to see from the House of Commons. 911 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 912

The Prime Minister: What we need in the energy Edward Miliband: It is just so hard to keep up with market is more competition and lower levies and charges this Prime Minister on green levies. This is what he was to drive profits and prices down, but what we have saying in January: believe it or not, he was boasting learnt in the last week is this: competition should include about the size of his green levies. He said—I kid you switching. At the Dispatch Box, the right hon. Gentleman not: “ECO was many times the size of the scheme it said: replaced.” So when it comes to green, as short a time “I will tell the Prime Minister what is a con: telling people…that ago as January he was saying the bigger the better, and the answer was to switch suppliers”.—[Official Report, 23 October now he says the opposite. Here is the problem: on 2013; Vol. 569, c. 295.] competition—[Interruption.] Here is the problem: he However, what have we found out over the last few wants a review of energy policy, but that is exactly what days? The right hon. Gentleman switched his supplier. the energy companies want—a long inquiry, kicking the Yes—he went for one of these insurgent companies to problem into the long grass. How will a review that cut his bills. Is it not typical? The right hon. Gentleman reports next summer help people pay their bills this comes here every week and attacks Tory policy; then he winter? goes home and adopts Tory policy to help his own The Prime Minister: We want a competition inquiry family. that starts straight away: that is our policy. On the point about voting for a price rise, the right hon. Gentleman Edward Miliband: The only thing that people need to has to answer, because this is what the former Labour do if they want someone to stand up against the energy energy spokesman Lord Donoughue said in the House companies is to switch the Prime Minister, and that is of Lords. The right hon. Gentleman should listen to what they know. this because Lord Donoughue was their energy spokesman: “I have never spoken against a Labour amendment in my Perhaps, as the unofficial spokesman for the energy 28 years in this House, but…I am troubled by the consequence…for companies, the Prime Minister can answer the question ordinary people…The amendment will…raise the cost of living that they could not answer yesterday. Can he explain and is in conflict with a future price freeze.”—[Official Report, why, although wholesale prices have hardly moved since House of Lords, 28 October 2013; Vol. 748, c. 1357-1359.] a year ago, retail prices are rising by about 10%? That is it from Labour’s own policy spokesman in the past in the Lords. The fact is that the whole country can The Prime Minister: Because we need both competition see that the right hon. Gentleman is a one-trick pony and rolling back the costs of charges. Switching is part and he has run out of road. of competition and the company the right hon. Gentleman Edward Miliband: If the right hon. Gentleman wants switched to has this to say about his energy freeze. Let to talk about what people are saying—[Interruption.] If us listen to the people providing his energy: he wants to talk about—[Interruption.] “A policy like this is potentially…problematic for an independent provider…bluntly, it could put me under.” Mr Speaker: Order. Members should try to recover That is the right hon. Gentleman’s policy: not listening some semblance of calm. It would be good for their to the people providing his energy, but having less health and beneficial for their well-being. They must try choice, less competition, higher prices. It is the same old to grow up, even after the age of 60. Labour. Edward Miliband: If the right hon. Gentleman wants to talk about what people are saying, his own former Edward Miliband: The right hon. Gentleman had no Tory Environment Secretary, the man he put in charge answer to the question, and I will explain something of the Climate Change Committee, says his figures are quite simple to him: most energy companies do not false. That is what he says. Instead of having a review, want a price freeze and most consumers do. That is why the right hon. Gentleman has an opportunity to do the energy companies are against a price freeze. He is so something for the public next week. He has an Energy on the side of the energy companies that we should call Bill going through Parliament. Instead of sitting on his them the big seven: the Prime Minister and the big six hands, he could amend that Bill to institute a price energy companies. In Opposition, he said there was a freeze now. We will support a price freeze: why does he problem in the relationship between wholesale and retail not act? prices, and he went on to say, “The first thing you’ve got to do is give the regulator the teeth to order that those The Prime Minister: Because it is not a price freeze—it reductions are made and that is what we would do.” is a price con. The fact is that the right hon. Gentleman Why when it comes to the energy companies has he is hiding behind this economically illiterate policy because gone from Rambo to Bambi in four short years? he cannot talk about the economy, because it is growing; he cannot talk about unemployment, because it is falling; and he cannot talk about the deficit, because it has The Prime Minister: Who was it who gave us the big come down. He has got nothing else to say. He is just a six? [Interruption.] Yes, when Labour first looked at weak leader with no ideas. this there were almost 20 companies, but, because of the right hon. Gentleman’s stewardship, we ended up Edward Miliband: I will tell you who is weak—it is with six players. The Opposition talk about a price this Prime Minister. He is too weak to stand up to the freeze but down the Corridor they have been voting for energy companies. Nothing less than a price freeze will a price rise. That is right: they voted for a decarbonisation do, because that is the only way we can deal with the target that everyone accepts would raise prices. If he energy companies overcharging. It is time he started wants a price freeze, why has he just voted for a price acting like a Prime Minister and standing up for consumers, rise? and stopped acting like a PR man for the energy companies. 913 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 914

The Prime Minister: I will tell you what is weak: being listened to the shadow Chancellor, who said that we too weak to stand up and admit to economic failures; were in for a “lost decade” of growth, we would have being too weak to stand up to Len McCluskey, who higher debts and higher interest rates—it would be the tried to wreck Scotland’s petrochemical industry; and same old outcome under the same old Labour. being too weak to stand up to the shadow Chancellor on HS2—[Interruption.] Q5. [900767] Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): In a recent uSwitch survey, 75% of people said that they Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Gwynne, recover your composure switched their heating off on one or more occasions man. You are wholly out of control. last winter. Does the Prime Minister expect that number to go up or down this winter due to his The Prime Minister: Let us just examine what has inability to stand up to the energy companies? happened on HS2 this week: the shadow Chancellor has been touring the radio studios, telling everyone it The Prime Minister: Fuel poverty went up under will not go ahead; and Labour local authority leaders Labour. This Government have maintained the winter have been begging the Leader of the Opposition to fuel payments; we have increased the cold weather stand up for this infrastructure scheme. And what has payments; and we have increased the benefits that the he done? He has cowered in his office, too weak to make poorest families get in our country. That is the action a decision. To put it another way: Britain deserves that we have taken, and we can afford to do that only better than that lot. because we have taken tough and sensible decisions on the economy. Q2. [900764] Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): Last year, businesses created three times as many jobs Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): in the private sector as were lost in the public sector. So A few days ago, I launched the business case for the is it not high time that those who made duff mystic electrification of the Harrogate and Knaresborough predictions that we would not be able to create as many rail line, which will mean more trains, faster services private jobs as were lost in the public sector admit that and better rolling stock. As the previous Government they got it wrong? electrified just 9 miles in 13 years, will my right hon. Friend continue to prioritise rail electrification? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that the Opposition should admit they got it The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very wrong. Let us just remember what the Leader of the good point. The previous Government did just 9 miles Opposition said as late as March 2012. He said that we of electrification in 13 years, an absolutely pathetic were not going to be able to replace the jobs in the record, whereas we are putting £1 billion into modernising public sector quickly enough with jobs in the private railways in the north of England. Let us look again at sector. The fact is that we have now got 1 million more HS2: we all know we need cross-party agreement to people employed in our country—1.4 million private make that important infrastructure scheme go ahead. sector jobs—but the Opposition are too weak to admit What a pathetic spectacle we have seen this week. One that they got it wrong. minute the Opposition are for it, then they are against it, and the Leader of the Opposition is too weak to Q3. [900765] Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): make a decision. Does the Prime Minister believe that the accident and emergency crisis in the NHS has anything to do with Q6. [900768] Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and the fact that he has cut 6,000 nurses since coming to Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): I have come across a very power? interesting interview given by the Prime Minister to The Times, during which he had to stop off at his The Prime Minister: What we see in the NHS is constituency office as, in his words, he needed 23,000 fewer non-clinical grades—bureaucrats and “to turn the heating on just so it’s a bit nicer when I get back this managers taken out of the NHS—and 4,000 more afternoon”. clinical staff, including over 5,000 more doctors in our How many of my constituents does he think will be able NHS. That is the change we have seen. Just imagine if to afford such niceties as we approach this winter? we had listened to Labour and cut the NHS budget. We believe in the NHS and we have invested in it. The Prime Minister: What the hon. Gentleman’s constituents will understand is that Labour’s price freeze Q4. [900766] Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton is a price con. Prices would go up beforehand, prices North) (Con): Hampshire chamber of commerce would go up afterwards and as the Leader of the reports, in the last quarterly economic survey, real Opposition himself has admitted, Labour would not be business optimism, with a rise in the number of local able to keep its promise because it does not control gas firms employing more staff, an increase in UK orders prices. That is why everyone knows that it is a con. and a 10% increase in sales. Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is evidence that the Government’s Q7. [900769] Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South economic plan is working and that the Labour party Pembrokeshire) (Con): My 20-year-old constituent got it wrong? Liam Burgess, from Llansteffan in Carmarthen, left school involuntarily at 16 and was told that the only The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right; we had choice ahead of him was in which prison he might end to take tough decisions, but growth is there, unemployment up. Four years later, he runs and owns one of Wales’s is falling, the number of people in work is rising and we best chocolate brands, nomnom. Does the Prime have 400,000 more businesses in this country. If we had Minister agree that the record number of new business 915 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 916 start-ups and the positive economic signs are as much needed private capital—I agree; they said we needed down to people such as Liam Burgess as they are to the private management—I agree. It has taken this Government excellent work of the Chancellor? to deliver the policy.

The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): With 1.5 million in paying tribute to his constituent for how he has jobs created by business and 400,000 new businesses, turned his life around and is contributing to our economy. last month’s figures in Worcestershire showed the biggest We see 400,000 more businesses up and running in our monthly fall in unemployment on record. Unemployment country—[Interruption.] Of course Labour Members is now down more than 30% since its peak under do not want to hear about success stories. They do not Labour. Does the Prime Minister agree that by backing care about enterprise; they do not care about small business and supporting businesses to grow, we can businesses. It is this enterprise and this small business undo Labour’s legacy of unemployment? that are turning our country around. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Q8. [900770] Emily Thornberry (Islington South and right. Whoever was in government right now would Finsbury) (Lab): A new flat has just been launched in have to make difficult reductions in the public sector, my constituency, which has been built partly as a result and obviously that leads to the reduction of some of public money under the Government’s affordable public sector jobs, so we need a strong private sector housing scheme, known as Share to Buy. It is a recovery. That is what we have seen—1.4 million more two-bedroom flat in Pear Tree court and it costs jobs in the private sector, meaning that overall there are £720,000. Does the Prime Minister believe that to be 1 million more people employed in our country. That is affordable and, if so, to whom? 1 million reasons to stick to our plan and reject the medicine suggested by the Opposition. The Prime Minister: We need to build more houses in our country and that is why we are reforming the Q10. [900772] Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire planning system, which Labour opposed, why we have North) (Lab): Current legislation to protect agency introduced Help to Buy, which Labour opposed, and workers was designed to stop the exploitation of why we have put extra money into affordable housing, migrant workers and also to protect the wages and which Labour opposed. Labour is now the “build absolutely conditions of our indigenous workers. I know that the nothing anywhere” party and as a result housing will Prime Minister has been lobbied on this issue, but can become less affordable. he reassure the House that he will resist any temptation to dilute even further the protection for agency Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): Over workers? the past few decades, hundreds of millions of people have been lifted out of poverty in India and China. As The Prime Minister: What I want to see are more jobs those people have increased their living standards, their in this country, and that means making sure we keep energy demands have increased, too. Does my right our flexible work force. What the hon. Gentleman did hon. Friend agree that if we are to have sustainable, not tell us, of course, is that he chairs the Unite group of long-term and cheap energy, the innovative deal that the Labour MPs. Perhaps he ought to declare that when he Chancellor heralded a few weeks ago through the Chinese stands up. While he is at it, perhaps he could have a initiative is crucial and much better than short-term word with Mr McCluskey and say that we need a proper political gimmicks? inquiry into what happened in Unite and a proper inquiry into what happened in Grangemouth, because The Prime Minister: That was an important step we all know that the leader of the Labour party is too forward in encouraging inward investment into our weak to do it himself. country to help fund our nuclear programme. That means that we will have dependable supplies of low-carbon Q11. [900773] Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): electricity long into the future. People might oppose The economy has grown 1.5% in the past six months, foreign investment—it sounds now like the Labour during which time in the Chippenham constituency the party opposes foreign investment and with all the flip-flops number of jobseekers has fallen by a fifth. Raising the Opposition have done this week, I would not be at living standards requires greater productivity from a all surprised if they did not start to oppose nuclear work force who are highly skilled, but in Chippenham energy, too—but getting that foreign investment means hopes were dashed five years ago when the national that we can use our firepower to build hospitals, to college building programme ran out of money. Will the build schools, to build roads and railways and modernise Prime Minister join me in backing Wiltshire college’s our country. bid to the Skills Funding Agency to rebuild our Chippenham campus to make it fit for local students to Q9. [900771] Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) gain the skills that employers demand? (Lab): Does the Prime Minister believe that Royal Mail was undervalued? The Prime Minister: I very much agree with what my hon. Friend says. We all remember the huge disappointment The Prime Minister: Considering that Royal Mail in when Labour’s planned investment in so many of our the past was losing billions of pounds, the whole country colleges collapsed. I saw exactly the same thing at is far better off with Royal Mail in the private sector. I Abingdon and Witney college, and it is this Government just talked about flip-flops and here is another from the who are now putting the money in to see that expansion Labour party. Who said that we needed to privatise and improvement and to put quality colleges in place. I Royal Mail in the first place? Anyone? Where is Peter am sure that that can happen in Wiltshire as well as in Mandelson when you need him? Labour said that we Witney. 917 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 918

Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Since two thirds of the antics that it is letting down the north of England and green levies on people’s energy bills were established the midlands. Let me remind the shadow Chancellor under this Government, why has the Prime Minister what he said about these transport investments: been attacking himself? “Nowhere is…consensus more essential than on our national infrastructure…successive governments…have ducked or delayed The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is vital decisions on our national infrastructure, allowing short-term wrong. [Interruption.] The fact is that many of the politics to” green levies were put in place by Labour. Let me remind get in the way. By his own words, he is found guilty of him that one of the first acts of this Government was short-termism and petty politicking, rather than looking with the £179 renewable heat initiative, which the leader after the national interest. of the Labour party wanted to put on the bill of every single person in the country—and we took it off the Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab): I am surprised bill. that the Prime Minister, along with the Justice Secretary, is prepared is gamble on his proposals for the probation Q12. [900774] Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) service, especially given that the early tests and trials (Con): Will the Prime Minister join me in have been called to a halt. Is he prepared to gamble with congratulating the work force at Toyota in my the lives and daily safety of my constituents and others constituency, as well as manufacturers across the in this country, and will his gambling luck hold out? country, whose hard work has ensured that car production went up by 10% in the past year? The Prime Minister: What we want is a probation service that is much more focused on getting results on The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend. I stopping reoffending and making sure that we give remember my own visit to Burnaston in Derby— people rehabilitation services from the moment they [Interruption.] Again, Opposition Members do not leave prison, which does not happen today. want to hear good news about manufacturing. They do It is interesting that at 26 minutes past 12 we have not not want to hear good news about our car industry. The heard one question from Labour Members on the economy. fact is that this country is now a net exporter of cars They have nothing to say and nothing to offer. They are again and we should be congratulating the work force at embarrassed that prediction after prediction was completely Toyota. We should be congratulating the work force at wrong. Jaguar Land Rover. We should be praising what they are doing at Nissan. These companies are leading a Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con) rose—[Interruption.] re-industrialisation of our country. I was at the Cowley works on Monday, where the Mini, which is doing Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman’s question brilliantly, is leading to more jobs, more apprenticeships, must and will be heard. more employment, more skills—all things that we welcome under this Government. Q14. [900776] Mr Scott: Like my right hon. Friend, I welcome the fall in unemployment, which is down to Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): Thank 3.7 % in my constituency, but does he recognise, as I you, Mr Speaker, for launching our report on electoral do, that one of the biggest problems is getting young conduct yesterday, which found some shocking examples people with special needs, particularly autism and of racism and discrimination during election campaigns. Asperger’s, into work, and will he congratulate the Will the Prime Minister back our call to get political London borough of Redbridge and the Interface parties, the Electoral Commission and the Equality and parents group, where the project I initiated has now Human Rights Commission to work more pro-actively started and the first young people with special needs now in areas of tension so that the next general election are in work? can be a battle of ideas, not race hate and discrimination? The Prime Minister: I know of my hon. Friend’s close The Prime Minister: I very much welcome what the attention to this issue and his deep care about it. I hon. Lady says and the report of the all-party parliamentary certainly pay tribute to Redbridge and all those who inquiry into electoral conduct, which I will study closely. help children with special needs. Through our reform of If there is anything we can do on a cross-party basis to special needs, we have tried to focus the help on those ensure that we keep that sort of disgusting racism out of who need it most to ensure that they get the help they politics, we should certainly do it. need.

Q13. [900775] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): I Thanks to the Government’s regional growth fund, have a question on the economy for the Prime Minister. £8.8 million is being spent reopening the Todmorden Does he agree with his own advisers that the Government’s curve rail link, which will cut travel times between Youth Contract is failing to tackle Burnley and Manchester in half. However, better rail “the appallingly high levels of youth unemployment”? connections to the south of England are also vital. Does the Prime Minister agree that it is absolutely The Prime Minister: What we have seen with the outrageous for the Labour party to be challenging HS2 Youth Contract is thousands of young people getting at the present time, putting in jeopardy jobs and work through our work experience scheme. It has been investment in the north of England? more successful than the future jobs fund but has cost six times less. Through the Youth Contract we have The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely also seen more than 20,000 young people get work right to stand up for his constituents and for the north opportunities. That is why we see the youth claimant of England, because there is a real danger with Labour’s count coming down so rapidly in our country. There is 919 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 920 still far more to do to get young people into work, but think we should welcome foreign investment into our the fact that we have backed more than 1.5 million country, building these important utilities so that we apprenticeships is a sign of how much we care about can use our firepower for the schools, the hospitals, the getting young people into work. roads and the railways we need.

Q15. [900777] Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): In my Does the Prime Minister agree with President Obama constituency there are shortly to be more than 100 wind that additional constraints on how we gather and use turbines and there are about 30 or 40 more in the intelligence are needed and that we need to weigh the planning system. These turbines are paid for by constituents risks and rewards of our activities more effectively? but they are not constructed here or creating any jobs in Will he follow the President’s lead? my constituency. When the Prime Minister rightly reviews green taxes, will he ensure that the changes to green The Prime Minister: What I have said in the House subsidies ensure that jobs in that energy sector are here and will repeat again is that obviously we will always in the United Kingdom? listen to what other countries have to say about these issues, but I believe that in Britain we have a good way The Prime Minister: I know how hard my hon. Friend of having intelligence and security services, having them has worked with other MPs on a cross-party basis right overseen by a parliamentary Committee, having their across the Yorkshire and Humberside region to try to work examined by intelligence commissioners, and ensuring attract investment into our country, and we should that they act under a proper legal basis. I take those continue to target that investment. responsibilities very seriously, but I believe we have a Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Will the Prime Minister good system in this country and we can be proud of the join me in paying tribute to the positive role played by people who work in it and of those who oversee it. trade unions in the work of the Automotive Council, which has brought about the renaissance in the UK car Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): We have recently industry? learned that energy security in this country is being outsourced to the Chinese and the French, that the The Prime Minister: The Automotive Council has lights may go out, that pensioners will freeze this year, been extremely successful. Where trade unions play a and that we have no control over the big six. Does the positive role, I will be the first to praise them, but where, Prime Minister have any regrets about the cack-handed frankly, we have a real problem with a rogue trade privatisation of the utilities by the former Tory Government unionist at Grangemouth who nearly brought the Scottish and the decimation of the most technically advanced petrochemical industry to its knees, we need to have a coal industry in the world? proper inquiry—a Labour inquiry. If Labour Members had any courage, any vision or any strength of decision The Prime Minister: What I would say to the hon. making, they would recognise the need to have that Gentleman in terms of energy security is that he backed inquiry and get to the bottom of what happened. a Government who in 13 years never built a single nuclear power station. Oh, they talked about it—boy, Several hon. Members rose— did they talk about it—but they never actually got it done. In terms of Chinese and French investment, I Mr Speaker: Order. 921 30 OCTOBER 2013 Changes to Health Services in London 922

Changes to Health Services in London The panel also says that while the changes to A and E at Central Middlesex and Hammersmith hospitals should 12.33 pm be implemented as soon as practicable, further work is required before a final decision can be made about the The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): range of services to be provided from the Ealing and With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Charing Cross hospital sites. statement on the “Shaping a healthier future”programme, Because the process to date has already taken four a locally led review of NHS services across north-west years, causing considerable and understandable local London. concern, I have today decided it is time to end the The NHS is one of the greatest institutions in the uncertainty. Therefore, while I accept the need for further world. Ensuring that it is sustainable and that it serves work, as the IRP suggests, I have decided that the the best interests of patients sometimes means taking outcome should be that Ealing and Charing Cross hospitals tough decisions. The population of north-west London should continue to offer an A and E service, even if it is is growing and will reach approximately 2.15 million by a different shape or size from that currently offered. 2018. About 300,000 people have a long-term condition. Any changes implemented as part of “Shaping a However, there is great variation in the quality of acute healthier future” should be implemented by local care. In 2011, there was a 10% higher mortality rate at commissioners following proper public engagement and weekends for emergency admissions, and the number of in line with the emerging principles of the Keogh review hospital re-admissions differs considerably across the of accident and emergency services. area. The Independent Reconfiguration Panel expressed I have today written to the chair and vice-chair of the concerns that the status quo in north-west London was health and adult social services standing scrutiny panel neither sustainable nor desirable, and might not even be of the London borough of Ealing council, the chair of stable. the IRP Lord Bernie Ribeiro, the chief executive of In order to address these challenges, the NHS in NHS England and local MPs, informing them of my London started the “Shaping a healthier future”programme decision. in 2009. It proposed significant changes to services, These much-needed changes will put patients at the including centralising accident and emergency services centre of their local NHS, with more accessible, 24/7 front- at five rather than nine hospitals; 24/7 urgent care line care at home, in GP surgeries, in hospitals and in centres at all nine hospitals; 24/7 consultant cover in all the community. More money will be spent on front-line obstetric wards; a brand new trauma hospital at St Mary’s care, which focuses on the patient. Less will be wasted hospital, Paddington; brand new custom-built local on duplication and under-performing services. hospitals at Ealing and Charing Cross; seven-day access Let me be clear that, in the joint words of the medical to GP surgeries throughout north-west London; the directors at hospitals affected, there is a creation of over 800 additional posts to improve out-of- “very high level of clinical support for this programme across hospital care, including a named, accountable clinician NW London”. for all vulnerable and elderly patients with fully integrated Local services will be designed by clinicians and local provision by the health and social care systems; and residents and will be based on the specific needs of the increased investment in mental health and psychiatric population. liaison services. None of these changes will take place until NHS These changes represent the most ambitious plans to England is convinced that the necessary increases in transform care put forward by any NHS local area to capacity in north-west London’s hospitals and primary date. They are forward-thinking and address many of and community services have taken place. the most pressing issues facing the NHS, including I want to put on the record my thanks to the IRP for seven-day working, improved hospital safety and proactive its thorough advice. As the medical directors of all the out-of-hospital and GP services. The improvements in local hospitals concerned said in their letter to me, these emergency care alone should save about 130 lives per changes will annum and the transformation in out-of-hospital care many more, giving north-west London probably the “save many lives each year and significantly improve patients care and experience of the NHS.” best out-of-hospital care anywhere in the country. When local doctors tell me that that is the prize, I will The plans are supported by all eight clinical not duck a difficult decision. commissioning groups, the medical directors of all nine local I commend this statement to the House. NHS trusts, and all local councils except Ealing. It was as a result of a referral to me by Ealing council on 12.39 pm 19 March 2013 that I asked the Independent Reconfiguration Panel to conduct a full review. Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): People at home will have listened carefully to what the Secretary of State The panel submitted its comprehensive report to me has just said, and they will have one simple question in on 13 September 2013 and I have considered it in detail their mind: why is this man trying to close so many A alongside the referral from Ealing. I am today placing a and Es when we are in the middle of an A and E crisis? copy of the panel’s report in the Library, alongside the At least seven A and Es across the capital are under strong letters of support for the changes that I received threat, at a time when all London A and Es are working from all local CCGs and medical directors. The panel flat out and are full to capacity. As we stand here, says that “Shaping a healthier future” provides thousands of people are waiting to be seen, stuck on “the way forward for the future and that the proposals for change trolleys or held in the back of ambulances that are will enable the provision of safe, sustainable and accessible services.” queuing outside A and E. When the A and Es we have Today I have accepted the panel’s advice in full and it are struggling to cope, how on earth can it be safe to will be published on the panel’s website. close or downgrade so many? 923 Changes to Health Services in London30 OCTOBER 2013 Changes to Health Services in London 924

[Andy Burnham] taxpayers’ money in a cavalier fashion, to protect his pride and defend the indefensible. I have a simple question: That brings me to what I see as the major flaw in what how much has he spent on appealing that decision? the Secretary of State has announced. These plans have When he decided to appeal, did the official legal advice been in development for four years, as he said. Four from the Government recommend an appeal or did he years ago, A and E was not in the crisis that it faces overrule it? Will he confirm today to this House and to today. The reality on the ground in London has changed. the people of Lewisham that there will be no further In 2013, A and Es in London have been getting worse appeal against the court’s ruling? Will he give the people and worse and worse. Across London, 200,000 people of Lewisham and the staff who work at Lewisham have waited in A and E for longer than four hours in the hospital a commitment that their A and E and maternity past 12 months. Here is the statistic that should make services will be protected? Finally, will he apologise to people stop and think: taking all its major A and E the people of Lewisham for the unnecessary distress units together, London has missed the Government’s A and worry he has put them through? and E target in 48 of the last 52 weeks. It will not have escaped people’s notice that the Any further changes to this fragile and overburdened Secretary of State is trying to put powers through the system must proceed with the utmost caution. Will the House quite soon to grab further powers for himself Secretary of State give me a categorical assurance that and drive through financial closures of A and Es without he personally gave in-depth consideration to the latest proper consultation, so that in effect he can do what he evidence of the pressure on London A and Es and to tried to do to Lewisham to every community in England. the changed reality that 2013 has brought before making That will send a chill wind through those communities his decision? I understand how tough such decisions that fear to lose their A and Es, and that is why we will are. Sometimes, difficult changes need to be made, as I oppose those powers when they are considered by the found when I reorganised stroke services in London House. before the last election. When he does the right thing, In conclusion, the Government have come a long way based on a clear clinical case that lives will be saved, we since the Prime Minister stood outside Chase Farm will support him, as we did on children’s heart surgery. hospital days after the last general election and promised The problem with the closure programme, as managers a moratorium on all hospital changes. Local people in admitted to Members of the House at the outset, is that west London will not have forgotten the Prime Minister it is primarily about saving money, not saving lives. standing outside Ealing and Central Middlesex hospitals Even though the Secretary of State has made some and promising the same. People are seeing through a minor concessions today, he is still performing pretty Prime Minister whose broken promises on the NHS are brutal surgery on west London’s NHS. It is the single catching up with him. Has it ever been clearer than it is biggest hospital closure programme the NHS has ever today that people simply cannot trust the Tories with seen. Has he considered the impact of the changes on the NHS? people in those communities who are on low incomes? They will face much greater costs and journey times in Mr Hunt: I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman is getting to hospital. sounding more and more desperate. Today the Government Will the Secretary of State be straight with us on the have taken a difficult decision that will improve services much-loved Charing Cross and Ealing hospitals? I listened for patients. It was a moment for him to show that he carefully to what he said. What is the “further work” understood the challenges facing the NHS, but that was that he referred to? He spoke of their A and Es being of not to be. He said that we should not proceed with the a different size and shape. Is that not spin for saying changes given winter pressures on A and Es, but he that the units will be downgraded and become urgent should read the document. The proposals are for more care centres? Alternatively, is he giving those units a emergency care doctors, more critical care doctors, and permanent reprieve today? If he cannot answer those more psychiatric liaison support that helps A and E questions directly, local people in those areas will take departments, and they are supported by the medical what he has said as weasel words. directors of all nine trusts affected. He said that if The Secretary of State said that there will be investment evidence can be produced to show that the proposals in communities before the changes go ahead. He said will save lives, Labour will support them. What more that to the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de evidence does he want? He should be shouting from the Bois) in respect of Chase Farm hospital, but he is rooftops to support the proposals, but instead he is closing that unit next month. What guarantee do people putting politics before patients. have that he will follow through on this promise, when The right hon. Gentleman mentioned A and E he broke the promise that he made to his hon. Friend? performance, and I am happy to tell him about that. On The Secretary of State has made a statement on average a person now waits 50 minutes in A and E London health services. People will not have missed the before they are seen; when he was Health Secretary it fact that he has failed to mention Lewisham hospital was 71 minutes. The number of patients seen in less and what happened at the Court of Appeal yesterday. Is than four hours every day is 57,000—nearly 2,000 more that not a staggering omission? The victory that was than when the right hon. Gentleman was Health Secretary. won by the people of Lewisham will give hope to people Our hospitals are performing extremely well under a who are disappointed by today’s announcement. great deal of pressure because we are taking difficult The humiliation of the Secretary of State in court decisions of the kind that we are talking about today. again raises major questions about his judgment and his The right hon. Gentleman also talked about hospital ability to manage such important decisions. In the closures. Again, he should read the proposals: a brand summer, we explicitly warned him to accept the first new trauma centre at St Mary’s hospital in Paddington; court ruling. Instead, he ploughed on, throwing around two brand new elective care centres at Ealing and Charing 925 Changes to Health Services in London30 OCTOBER 2013 Changes to Health Services in London 926

Cross; seven-day NHS care that will save lives; 24/7 obstetric the powers—the trust special administrator powers—were care; 16 paediatric care centres. Those are big improvements used. My interpretation was different from the courts, in hospital care—[Interruption.] I will come on to but I respect them as the final arbiter of what the law Lewisham. I am acting to end uncertainty because I means. However, when we have to make difficult decisions made the decision today that whatever the outcome of about turning round failing hospitals—south London further discussions that the Independent Reconfiguration has some of the most serious problems in the country—it Panel recommends, there will remain an A and E at is important that the local NHS can take a wider health Ealing and Charing Cross. That is the best thing I can economy view of what changes are necessary. As I have do for those residents. said, I will respect what the Court has decided, but it is The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Lewisham, but important that I continue to battle for the right thing let us remember that the problem started because his for patients. Government saddled South London Healthcare NHS Trust with £150 million in private finance initiative Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): The Secretary of costs. I judged that the right thing for patients was to State, his predecessor and the Prime Minister are well sort out a problem that was diverting £1 million every aware of my continued opposition to the decision to week from the front line. Yes it is difficult, but I would downgrade Chase Farm. However, today, will he join rather lose a battle with the courts trying to do the right me in condemning the shadow Secretary of State, who thing for patients than not try at all. has said that Chase Farm is closing? It is not closing. Finally, these are difficult decisions, but the party Against my wishes, there is a proposal to downgrade that really has NHS interests at heart is the one that is the A and E unit. The hypocrisy and politicking is prepared to grip those decisions. We are gripping the worse because the previous Labour Government initiated problems in A and E, and in terms of hospital the process and authorised the downgrade in the first reconfigurations. That is why the NHS is safe in our place. hands and not safe in those of the Labour party. Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend speaks wisely. It is Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): Does my disappointing that we are not having a more intelligent right hon. Friend agree that we tackle health inequalities, debate. When Labour was in power, it closed or downgraded and improve health outcomes and access to accident 12 A and E units in 13 years. The then Government and emergency departments, by facing up to the need to realised that there were problems. He is right that they make difficult decisions to change the way care is delivered started the problem in Chase Farm. That is why, when to keep it up to date? Does he further agree that today we are facing such difficult decisions, it is important to we have seen a Government who are prepared to face have a responsible debate. I accept that MPs have views those challenges, and an Opposition spokesman who on their constituencies, but we have to start looking has demonstrated a determination to duck them? Who above the parapet to the wider interests of patients. cares about the NHS? That is a difficult thing to do, but I would have hoped Mr Hunt: I thank my right hon. Friend for that for more leadership from the shadow Secretary of State, comment. He is right that this is about facing up to who used to be Health Secretary. difficult decisions. One aspect of the proposals that is so exciting for people who want a transformation in services Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): The Secretary is that they involve employing 800 additional people for of State is destroying services in four great London out-of-hospital care. The real way we will reduce pressure hospitals, two of which are in my constituency, in the on A and E units is by ensuring that people, particularly biggest closure programme in the history of the NHS. the frail and elderly, are looked after better at home. Why is he closing A and Es in two of the most deprived That is what we must do. We must recognise that, communities in London—Brent and White City—and fundamentally, the problems will not be solved by trying why, rather than certainty, is he installing chaos into to pour in money in the way that it has always been Ealing and Charing Cross hospitals? What is happening poured in. We must rethink the model. This is a positive to the 500 beds at Charing Cross? What is happening to and ambitious programme. If the shadow Secretary of the best stroke unit in the country? What does he mean State were in my shoes, he would speak differently of by A and Es that are different in size and shape? When the proposals, because they represent the way forward will he answer those questions? This is a cheap political for the kind of integrated care he normally champions. fix. How can anyone have confidence in the Secretary of State— Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): Let me remind the Secretary of State that the High Mr Speaker: Order. We understand the general drift Court ruled that his actions in trying to remove services of the observations—[Interruption.] Order. I understand from Lewisham hospital to save a separate failing trust how strongly the hon. Gentleman feels, but he should were illegal. He then lost the appeal. Will he now stop really ask one question. The Secretary of State is a man throwing good public money after bad, leave Lewisham of dexterity and no doubt will meet the hon. Gentleman’s hospital alone, and learn to respect the views of the needs as he sees fit. people who work in our hospital and those who use its services? Mr Hunt: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will. The hon. Mr Hunt: I respect those views and the right hon. Gentleman does no credit to himself or his party with Lady for her campaigning. I understand why the people such hyperbole. Let me remind him that the leaders of of Lewisham were unhappy about those changes but, as the clinical commissioning groups, including the ones in Health Secretary, I had to take a decision in the interests his area, which are there to look after his constituents, of all patients in south London. That was the first time have said that 927 Changes to Health Services in London30 OCTOBER 2013 Changes to Health Services in London 928

[Mr Jeremy Hunt] Mr Hunt: The hon. Lady makes an important point. I accept that there will be changes in transport arrangements. “delivering the Shaping a Healthier Future recommendations in I am happy to work with her and to talk to TfL about full will save many lives each year and significantly improve how improvements can be made in respect of the changes patients’ care and experience of the NHS.” I have announced today. That is what the doctors are saying, which is what I I hope that the hon. Lady talks to her constituents want to follow. about the positive aspects of the proposals. Hers will be the first part of the country in which all GP surgeries Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): At the Central are open seven days a week—at least, there will be Middlesex hospital, we have well qualified doctors and seven-day access to GP surgeries throughout her nurses waiting for patients to arrive but, at the same constituency and north-west London. North-west London time, we have long queues at Northwick Park hospital. will be the first part of the country where we have full That makes no sense. Will my right hon. Friend assure seven-day working and we eliminate the fact that mortality me that any reduced resources at Central Middlesex rates are 10% higher if people are admitted in an hospital will be transferred in full to Northwick Park so emergency at the weekend. The positive aspects of the that patients can be seen far more quickly and in a far proposals will mean that her constituents find that they better manner? get better, safer care and live for longer.

Mr Hunt: I assure my hon. Friend that the resources John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I taken out of some acute services will be used to give represent wards with some of the highest morbidity and better, safer and more high-quality services to his lowest life expectancy in north-west London. Clinical constituents. Northwick Park is one of the best examples support for reform and restructuring was based on of that. Stroke services in the north-west London area adequate funding during the period. Hillingdon clinical were centralised in Charing Cross and Northwick Park. commissioning group has written to the Secretary of As a result of those changes, which were introduced by State to express its concern about the current funding the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), formula, which could undermine service delivery unless stroke mortality rates in London have halved. That is a there are additional resources. Will he meet representatives very good example of why it makes sense to centralise from the CCG and Hillingdon hospital, to which he has certain more specialist and complex services if we are to denied additional winter money this year, to talk about get the best results for patients. the long-term future of our health economy? Mr Hunt: Hillingdon CCG supports the changes Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): The because it recognises the profound impact they could Secretary of State talked about putting politics before have in addressing health inequalities. I know that that patients, but I remind him that the Prime Minister, is precisely what concerns the hon. Gentleman. His when he was Leader of the Opposition, went to Chase constituents will be big beneficiaries of the changes we Farm to say that the Conservatives would stop all are announcing today.The funding formula is an extremely configurations. That simply has not happened, but yet difficult issue. We have decided to depoliticise it by the Secretary of State continues to have a role. Patients making it a matter for NHS England—it is decided at and local residents are firmly opposed to the reconfiguration arm’s length from politicians because we believe it is at that hospital and he will end up in court very soon very important that things are decided on the basis of over the matter. There is still time for him to reconsider an independent formula. that decision. Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con): Mr Hunt: We did not agree with how the previous I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement. We in Government went about reconfigurations. I have announced Hillingdon are very pleased for our near neighbours in a better way of achieving them, with better public and Ealing and in Charing Cross for this reprieve—rather clinical support. My predecessor as Health Secretary than stay of execution—and it will take pressure off our paused on reconfigurations because he wanted to introduce residents. I echo the words of the hon. Member for a better structure, including the four tests, one of which Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), however, was the need for local clinical support, and another of about the pressures we are facing in Hillingdon. Perhaps which was the need for effective public engagement. we could have a meeting with my right hon. Friend to That is why we are in a better place today than we were discuss some of these, issues, including the funding with the previous Government’s reconfigurations. formula and the winter pressures.

Sarah Teather (Brent Central) (LD): My constituents Mr Hunt: It is the first time I have responded to a in Brent will be very disappointed with the Secretary of question from my hon. Friend, so I shall take the State’s announcement of the A and E closure at Central opportunity to congratulate him on his knighthood. I Middlesex hospital. However, given that the hospital am more than happy to meet him and his neighbour as trust began moving acute services out to Northwick long as they understand that the funding formula is not Park hospital many years before the process began, they in my gift—it is decided by an independent body. As for will probably not be surprised. Does he agree that there the winter pressures money, the allocation was not is an urgent need for health managers to work closely decided by Ministers: it was decided by the people who with Transport for London to ensure good transport are responsible for making sure that we head off winter links for my constituents in Harlesden to get to Northwick pressures. They decided to concentrate resources in the Park? It is currently extremely difficult to do so. Will he third of the country where the problems were most write to health managers to express that view? severe, and that is how that selection was made. 929 Changes to Health Services in London30 OCTOBER 2013 Changes to Health Services in London 930

Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) hospital would be safe, and that in fact he wants to (Lab): The whole House knows that all the medical inflict the blatant injustice that he tried to inflict on directors in the hospitals involved in north-west London Lewisham on hospitals not only across London, but up support the reconfiguration. Does the Secretary of State and down the country? really understand the importance of bringing ordinary people with him? Londoners are especially cautious Mr Hunt: I understand why the hon. Lady is rightly about these reconfigurations because of the historic representing the concerns of her constituents, but she problems with access to GPs and the many excluded must also understand that I have to look at their interests communities for whom A and E is their primary care, as patients, as well as at the interests of the broader and because these institutions are often major employers south London population. It is important to make that in their area and people identify with them. Does he amendment to the Care Bill because hospitals are not realise that unless he brings ordinary people and patients islands on their own. We have a very interconnected with him on these reconfigurations, Londoners will health economy, and what happens in Lewisham has a continue to fight them and, as in the case of Lewisham, direct impact on what happens in Woolwich and vice they will continue to win? versa. If we are to turn around failing hospitals quickly— something that the last Government sadly did not do—we Mr Hunt: Apart from the very last sentence, I actually need to have the ability to look at the whole health agree with what the hon. Lady says. It is important to economy, not at problems in isolation. carry the public with us in these reconfigurations. Governments from both sides of the House have struggled Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Will my right to do that in these difficult reconfigurations, which is hon. Friend look again at Barking, Havering and Redbridge why the new structures that we have introduced will put trust? As he knows, the difficulties that Queen’s hospital doctors in the front line to argue for changes. It is not has had simply meant that, in its own admission, it just the medical directors of trusts supporting them, would not be able to cope without an A and E at King but the CCG leaders, who are all local GPs, making that George hospital for many years to come. case. That is why there is much stronger support for these changes. All the elected representatives on the Mr Hunt: I commend my hon. Friend for raising this local councils, apart from Ealing, supported these changes, issue with me consistently. I know his very real concern and that is a very big change from what we have seen is to make sure that when those changes are made they previously. I agree with the hon. Lady: we need to do do not have an adverse impact on his constituents. I will more work and it is very important to carry people go back and make absolutely certain that no changes with us. will be made until it is certain that they are clinically safe. Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): It is fair to say that today’s announcement leaves my constituents Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): Why in a much better place than they were over a year ago does the Secretary of State find it so difficult to realise when we set out to save our four local A and Es. that he is not above the law? Both the Court of Appeal Obviously, there is disappointment about the loss of the and the High Court have made it plain that his flagrant A and Es at Hammersmith and Central Middlesex, but disregard for the law in trying to destroy Lewisham huge relief that the bigger A and Es at Ealing and hospital cannot stand. Why does he not have the decency Charing Cross will be saved. My right hon. Friend says, to abandon his proposals; apologise to the people of rightly, that it will be for the local CCGs to take Lewisham and the staff and users of Lewisham hospital; responsibility for the future of these A and Es. Can he and share his humiliation with the Leader of the House, give us a little more detail on how he sees the services the previous Secretary of State, who launched this being delivered and improved by the CCGs, and can he illegal programme in the first place? reconfirm that the A and Es at Ealing and Charing Cross will be saved as A and Es? Mr Hunt: There is no humiliation in doing the right thing for patients, and I will always do that. Sometimes Mr Hunt: I can absolutely confirm that A and Es will it is difficult and we have battles with the courts, but no remain at Charing Cross and Ealing hospitals, thanks one is above the law. I have said that I respect the in no small part to the remarkable campaigning that my judgment made by the court yesterday, and that is what hon. Friend has done for her constituents, both in I shall do. public and in private. I commend her for that. The process that has to happen is clearly set out in what the Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Are IRP says and in my reply. There must be full consultation. there not three lessons to learn from the Secretary of There will be changes to the way in which services are State’s statement and the response from the shadow provided, but they will be changes made in the interests Secretary of State? First, we should listen to the opinions of patients. Whatever those changes are, A and Es will of local doctors. Secondly, delay puts at risk patient remain at those two hospitals. safety. Thirdly, we should not play politics. For Enfield, is it not the case that we should recognise that local Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): It is a bit doctors have united to say that we need to get on and rich for the Secretary of State to accuse the Opposition implement changes, because delay would put at risk of being desperate when he has been told by the court patient safety this winter, not least at our new, expanded not once, but twice that he acted unlawfully in relation North Middlesex hospital in Enfield? The future of to Lewisham. The Secretary of State’s amendment to Chase Farm is secure, but it could also be put at risk if the Care Bill would enable him to do to other hospitals we do not allow the implementation of good changes. what the courts said yesterday he could not do in south We should not play politics, but Enfield council is doing London. Will he admit that under those changes no so by trying to challenge the changes. 931 Changes to Health Services in London30 OCTOBER 2013 Changes to Health Services in London 932

Mr Hunt: As so often, my hon. Friend speaks wisely. Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): I cannot It is very important that in all this we do the right thing find the words to express how disappointed the residents for patients. My view on all these big changes is that in my constituency, and elsewhere in west London, will once we have decided what to do, it should be done as be on hearing the statement. We are not clear about quickly as possible, but within the bounds of what is what will happen to Ealing hospital. You are not clear clinically safe. It is very important that safeguards are in in your statement, before the final decision is made, place and I would always follow the advice of local about the range of services that will be provided from doctors as to the right moment to proceed with an Ealing and Charing Cross hospitals. What work will be important change in safety. done? Will you consider or ignore, like you totally ignored the thousands of people who marched in the Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): Will the Secretary rain outside Ealing hospital in west London two weeks of State commit to doing better against the four-hour A ago— and E waiting target in London in the future? Will he Mr Speaker: Order. I am extremely grateful to the put on the record today his acknowledgement of the hon. Gentleman, but may I just say to him that I will value of the contribution being made by those A and E not be doing any of the things that he suggested? I think units—too few at the moment—that are doing well his inquiry was directed at the Secretary of State, rather against that target at the moment? then me. I have no responsibility for health services in London or anywhere else. Mr Hunt: There are a number of hospitals that are doing extremely well, and we are doing everything we Mr Sharma: I apologise if I have given that impression. can to support those that are in difficulty. I absolutely recognise how hard front-line NHS staff are working: Mr Speaker: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. we are working with them in an incredibly detailed way Mr Sharma: Will the— on a hospital-by-hospital basis, not just in London but across the country, to see what additional support we Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has had his can give to people as we go through a difficult winter. say and we are grateful to him. We have already announced £250 million of support for the third of trusts in the greatest difficulty, and we are Mr Hunt: I am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman looking at what other, non-financial means we can use is disappointed. I am interested to know what his definition to support other trusts. The search continues, because of “totally ignored” means, because we have decided we recognise how challenging winters are for the NHS that we will not close Ealing A and E, and that is a big under this Government as under previous ones. decision. With respect to how his constituents feel, I completely understand that many people will be nervous about any changes. I hope he will become a big advocate Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) of these changes, because his constituents will be among (LD): Given the difficult legacy of the financial the first in the country to have seven-day access to GPs arrangements in London and south-east London in and a seven-day NHS, which means there will not be a particular, and the Court of Appeal judgment yesterday, higher mortality rate for admission to hospitals at the will the Secretary of State give an assurance that in weekends and that there will be 24/7 consultant obstetric future decisions will have the support of GPs in the cover for people who need it when giving birth. They areas affected; will not put at risk other viable and are big and important changes that will benefit his successful parts of the London health family; and will constituents. not suddenly impose new management structures and create huge disruption—for example, at King’s College Mr Speaker: Order. I should just say to the House, hospital, Guy’s hospital and St Thomas’s hospital—as almost as a courtesy, that I am prioritising London London health partners appear to be suggesting? Members. However, non-London Members should take heart. If they exercise their knee muscles they may have Mr Hunt: I certainly agree with two of the three an opportunity in due course. points. I do not think it is credible to say that we will not make any changes to the NHS, even if they are in the Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): The hon. interests of patients, unless there is unanimous support Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington from local GPs. The reality is that that would always be (Ms Abbott) was absolutely spot on in her question to difficult to achieve. We would end up with paralysis, the Secretary of State, not least with regard to variability which would be against the interests of patients. However, and accessibility of GP services. A few months ago, I I do think that GPs should be in the driving seat and be asked him whether he would make it a requirement for the advocates of these changes, and we should listen to plans to expand out-of-hospital care to be in place them above all people on whether to proceed with the before hospital changes occur. Can I take it from his changes. The whole purpose of the Government’s reforms statement that it is his intention that, when to the NHS is to create less bureaucracy not more, so I recommendations from the Independent Reconfiguration would be concerned if there was any suggestion that Panel are before him, he will require plans to build more was being created. capability for community health services and primary care services to be in place before they go ahead? We must always ensure that changes do not have an adverse impact on successful neighbouring areas. However, Mr Hunt: The right hon. Gentleman campaigns we need to encourage all areas to work together, because assiduously for his constituents. I recognise that there we have an interconnected health economy, particularly are worries about potential changes in his constituency, in London. an issue he often raises. Yes, we must ensure, if there are 933 Changes to Health Services in London30 OCTOBER 2013 Changes to Health Services in London 934 transitions or changes, that proper plans are in place to Mr Hunt: I think the best reassurance I can give the ensure they can be made safely. If he reads the report, hon. Gentleman is that, unlike when the Labour party he will derive a great deal of comfort from the stress the was in power, the Secretary of State does not sit behind IRP puts on the necessity of having proper alternative his desk planning reconfigurations in every part of the provision in place before any changes are made. country. This is a locally driven process. We have put in place safeguards to ensure that, where there is a Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): The reconfiguration proposal from a local NHS, it meets Secretary of State’s statement has left us even less clear certain criteria. It has to be supported by local GPs and than we were on the implications for hospital services there has to be proper engagement with the public. If for Westminster residents. Frankly, that is quite an his constituents are worried, I hope they will take heart achievement. Planned non-emergency hospital services from the thoroughness of the process that has happened have already moved away from St Mary’s Paddington to today. It is the right process and a good process, and it pre-empt the closure programmes that he is now telling will lead to better outcomes for the people involved. us will not happen. That was done on the basis that St Mary’s would become the premier emergency hospital Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): My for west London, so where does that leave the provision own general hospital, in keeping with many throughout of additional emergency services? Will that leave my the country, has come in for unfair criticism owing to constituents having to travel to Hammersmith, Ealing the increasing pressures being exerted on its A and E and Central Middlesex hospitals for their treatment, department. What does the Secretary of State think has something the local authority was not even consulted caused those pressures, and will he reassure my constituents on? Many GPs did not even know where their patients by telling us what he is doing to help relieve A and E were being treated. departments? Mr Hunt: I hope that I have provided clarity by Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention saying that there will remain an A and E at Ealing and to the pressures. I am sure that most A and E departments, Charing Cross, and that I support what the report says, including his own one in Northampton, would say that which is that there should be five major A and E the biggest single cause has been the increase in the frail centres, of which St Mary’s Paddington will probably elderly population and the inadequacy of the care those become the most pre-eminent trauma centre in the people receive outside hospital. We are trying to put country. This is a big step for the hon. Lady’s constituents that right by having named, accountable GPs responsible who use St Mary’s, and I think that they will be pleased for out-of-hospital care, reversing the historic mistake with what I have said today. made in 2004, when that personal link between GP and Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): I patient was abolished. congratulate the Health Secretary on his important announcement regarding the A and Es at Charing Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): This decision is Cross and Ealing. My constituents in Chiswick will feel devastating for my constituents. The Secretary of State reassured about the ongoing service at Charing Cross, will know that in the last winter period, Northwick and I thank him for that. Does he agree it is important Park hospital and Central Middlesex hospital, which that what is at the centre of any decision he makes comprise the North West London Hospitals Trust, were about health care is improved patient care and saving the worst-performing hospitals when it came to meeting lives across London? A and E targets not only in London, but in the country. The trust scored 81.03%. That is an appalling record. Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. When What he has done today, by announcing the almost the dust settles on these decisions—there is rightly so immediate closure of Central Middlesex, can only make much local passion, concern and uncertainty relating to that much worse. The College of Emergency Medicine hospitals, such as Charing Cross, which has a great has said that his reconfigured hospitals should have at tradition—what people will notice is whether their local least 16 consultants in their emergency departments, NHS services are getting better. I am afraid that one of but his decision will give them 10—and that is not for the legacies from the previous Government was the major trauma centres. Will he elaborate on what he will abolition of named GPs in 2004 and a sense that it has do to bring the number of consultants up to the level become more difficult to access one’s local GP. The required by the college? proposals mean that her constituents will be some of the first in the country to have seven-day GP services, a Mr Hunt: Has the hon. Gentleman, who is so against big step forward that her constituents will welcome. these proposals, not noticed the proposals for more emergency care doctors, more critical care doctors and Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Will the more psychiatric liaison support for A and E departments, Secretary of State give me an assurance, following the which will reduce pressure on A and Es and mean that huge debate that took place over the future of the A and people admitted through A and Es for emergency care E department of the Whittington hospital, and, by will not have a 10% higher chance of mortality if they extension, the neighbouring Royal Free hospital, that are admitted at weekends? His constituents will be its future is secure and that he will not try to reconfigure among the first to benefit from that. I would caution services once again in north London? Does he recognise him, therefore, against saying that this is devastating for that during that debate, my right hon. Friend the Member his constituents. We were reminded in Prime Minister’s for Leigh (Andy Burnham), who was then Secretary of questions earlier of how Labour suffered from predicting State, intervened to assure the future of the Whittington massive job losses, when in fact there was an increase in A and E department? I would like the same assurance jobs. This announcement is good news for the hon. from the Secretary of State, if that is possible. Gentleman’s constituents, and he should welcome it. 935 Changes to Health Services in London30 OCTOBER 2013 Changes to Health Services in London 936

Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Does my right also need to deal with these issues in a much more hon. Friend agree that, difficult though it may be, all timely way, particularly when it involves sorting out the NHS trusts will have to live within their budgets, because, problems of failing hospitals. I agree with her, therefore, with both Front Benches effectively having agreed public and I am looking at what can be done to speed up all spending limits for several years to come, the amount of these processes, while retaining the appropriate consultation money that can be spent on the NHS will be finite with the public. whoever is in government? Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): Does the Secretary of Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend speaks wisely. Let us bear State have any idea of the concern he is causing up and in mind the challenges facing north-west London, which down the country? In Wigan, we value our 24-hour A are similar to those across the country, including in and E service; we do not want it downgraded, and we Oxfordshire. In the next two decades, its population is do not want it closed. Will he clarify his proposal for the predicted to increase by 7%, and life expectancy has future of Ealing A and E? Is he proposing a type 1 risen by three years in the last decade alone. Furthermore, service? Also, will he give me a cast-iron guarantee that the uncertainty over public finances means that the any future decision about our local hospital will be trust cannot bank on substantial increases in the NHS made on the basis of people’s lives, not cost? budget, so it has to do the responsible thing and look for better, smarter, more efficient ways to use that Mr Hunt: I can assure the hon. Lady that decisions money to help more people. It has been brave and bold about the future of A and Es will be based on what is in doing this, and I think that many other parts of the best for patients and on what will save lives and get the country will take heart from what has happened today best outcomes—that will apply in her constituency, as it and come forward with equally bold plans. will in mine and every other constituency—but that will sometimes mean a difficult decision if we have a change Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Your House, that doctors strongly support, but about which members Mr Speaker, is being made dizzy this afternoon by the of the public are anxious. I have said that services at surfeit of spin we are suffering. We are being asked to Ealing will change, but that there will be proper public believe that this benevolent Government are partly consultation and that at the end of the process there will motivated by a desire to end uncertainty. The death still be an A and E. The recommendation from the sentence ends the uncertainty of life, but it is not process was that the A and E should close, but I said, necessarily something I would recommend. Will the “No, I think there should be an A and E at the end of Secretary of State please provide a little information the process.” I am injecting that much certainty, therefore, about what exactly a different shape and size A and E but I am not going to micro-manage the local NHS by department looks like? The people of Ealing deserve to saying precisely what those services should be. be told precisely what it means, otherwise they will think the worst. Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) Mr Hunt: I hope the hon. Gentleman will be pleased (Con): It is not only A and E units in London that are that today the death sentence on A and E at Ealing has under pressure; Derriford hospital’s A and E unit is also been not just reprieved, but cancelled; it will keep its A under pressure, because of our night-time economy. Is and E. The definition of A and E is not something that my right hon. Friend willing to meet me and potentially politicians decide. We said in the statement that what representatives from the English Pharmacy Board and the A and Es at Ealing and Charing Cross contain must my own Devon pharmacists to discuss how they can be consistent with Professor Sir Bruce Keogh’s review help to relieve some of the pressure on A and E units, of A and E services across the country, which they will especially down in Devon? be, and that any changes made in service provision must have full consultation with his constituents, which will Mr Hunt: I would be more than happy to meet my happen. On the basis of an IRP report that simply says, hon. Friend and his local pharmacists. There is a lot “More work needs to be done,” I cannot answer all his that pharmacists can do. One change we are making questions, but I hope I can give him greater certainty that could make a big difference, where proper protections than he had this morning that there will be an A and E are in place for patients, is allowing pharmacists to for his constituents in Ealing. access GP records so that they can give people the correct medicines, know about people’s allergies and Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Clinically led, things like that. There are lots of other things as well, evidence-based changes to services save lives. That is though, and I look forward to the discussion. straightforward and clear. It is also clear that we have to make these changes happen if we are to live within our Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): The statement means and the health service budget. How are we going has broader implications beyond London, although I to make reconfigurations such as this one more accept that colleagues from Islington and Ealing want straightforward, because the cost and time are unacceptable? to ensure they have their A and E facilities. On smaller Likewise with mergers, how are we going to streamline A and E facilities outside London, however, the Secretary this process? of State said there would be no political fixes, yet when he announced additional moneys to deal with winter Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend speaks wisely. It concerns pressures on 53 NHS trusts, there were none in the me, as it does her, that these processes take so long. north-east of England. What assurance can he give my When it comes to changes in A and E and maternity constituents that hospitals in the north-east will have services, exhaustive public consultation is necessary, sufficient resources to meet the demands placed on because they cause such great public concern, but we them in winter? 937 Changes to Health Services in London 30 OCTOBER 2013 938

Mr Hunt: The decision on where to allocate the extra Points of Order help was based on where the need was greatest, and it was taken not by Ministers, but on the basis of recommendations from people working in the NHS and 1.30 pm dealing with these problems. They chose the 53 local Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): health economies where they thought the pressures On a point of order, Mr Speaker. For the second time in were greatest. The fact that nowhere in the north-east as many weeks, I have had the privilege of asking the was selected indicates that A and E performance is Prime Minister a question. On both occasions, however, better in the north-east of England than in other parts he did not address the question that I asked in any way of the country. whatever. Instead, he answered the question that he thought he was going to be asked. The question I asked Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): When the him today was about agency workers, but he did not Secretary of State is not leading the smear campaign even mention agency workers in his response. How do against my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh we go about getting answers from the Prime Minister to (Andy Burnham), he is continually being dragged into the questions that we are asking him? the Chamber to react to events that he should be in control of. When will he finally get a grip on the Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for problems in our A and Es across the country? his point of order. He will know that it is a long-standing practice in the House that considerable latitude is afforded Mr Hunt: I completely reject what the hon. Gentleman to the Prime Minister of the day to decide in what way says. There are 1.2 million more people using A and E to respond to a question. If the hon. Gentleman is every year than there were under the last Government, dissatisfied with an answer—and it is apparent to me yet people are waiting for a shorter time, with more that that is so—he has the resources of the Order Paper people being seen within the four-hour target. But we and the guidance of the Table Office available to him to are doing something else. We are addressing the long-term enable him to pursue the matter until he receives a problems of A and E, including the patent failures of substantive response to his inquiry. The opportunity the last Government over the GP contract, social care therefore exists for written questions, correspondence integration and the working time directive. All those and other means to extract the information or views things have made the pressures worse, but we are sorting that he seeks. I have given the hon. Gentleman a very them out. particular response because I recognise how strongly he feels, but it would not be right for the Chair to interpose himself between a Minister and the hon. Gentleman in circumstances of this kind. I hope that that is helpful. I know that he is a terrier, and that he will pursue his concerns with his usual indefatigability. [Interruption.] The Whip on duty has just said that the hon. Gentleman is a big terrier. He certainly has a big heart, that is for sure.

Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wish to raise a point of order relating to the right of Members of the House to have access to Ministers and, in particular, to Ministers at the Home Office. This relates in particular to two cases, whose correspondence I have here. I originally wrote to the Home Office about the first case on 9 July, saying that it was urgent and that I needed a speedy reply. It involved a religious organisation, the Al-Raza Foundation, in my constituency, which had an indispensable need for a religious worker to join it for an event beginning on 1 November. The matter has not been resolved in the interim, despite my repeated attempts to contact the Home Office and, in particular, the Minister for Immigration, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper). That organisation is registered by the Home Office as a sponsor, but its activities have been wrecked by the failure of the Home Office to respond since 9 July. The second case involves a constituent of mine who has been in Copenhagen and who has had problems with his passport. He has visited the British embassy there daily, but has received no help. He is now homeless in Copenhagen. During his family’s most recent visit to see me, his brother was in tears over his predicament. I wrote to the Home Office about the case a month ago, saying that it was urgent, but it has not even bothered to respond. I warned it yesterday that if I did not get a 939 Points of Order 30 OCTOBER 2013 940

[Sir Gerald Kaufman] Hate Crime (People with Learning Difficulties and Learning Disabilities) result by today, I would raise the matter with you, Mr Speaker. As a result of that, I got a completely Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order useless telephone call from a member of the Minister No. 23) for Immigration’s staff, saying that they would let me know as soon as possible. I do not object to the Home 1.37 pm Office treating me like dirt, but I will not have my Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): I beg to move, constituents treated like dirt by a Home Secretary who is, as it happens, the least responsive and courteous That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require police forces to register hate crimes committed against people with learning difficulties Home Secretary I have known in my 43 years in the and learning disabilities including autism; and for connected House of Commons. purposes. Right hon. and hon. Members may remember early-day Mr Speaker: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his motion 172. It related to hate crime against those with point of order. I say in no facetious spirit but in all autism, and was signed by 104 Members of this House, solemnity that, having known him throughout my 16 years showing that this is a matter of concern in this place in the House, I am surprised when Ministers do not and in the wider community. I think it is safe to say that judge it prudent simply to respond courteously to him everyone in the House either knows someone personally in the first instance, not only because it is the right thing or has met someone with learning difficulties or disabilities, to do but because failure to do so will almost certainly yet how many hon. Members are aware of the abuse result in a veritable Exocet of protest being lobbed in and bullying that many of those vulnerable people are their direction by the right hon. Gentleman. That appears subjected to on a regular basis? to have happened now, and I rather imagine that it will continue to do so. The issue was repeatedly brought to my attention when I was chair of the Valuing People Now partnership There are two points here. The first is the question of board for the north-east and, more recently, during my courteous responses to Members, to which I attach a discussions with the national and international campaigner premium. It would help if Ministers on the Treasury Kevin Healey, whose autism anti-bullying campaign Bench would commit to providing the timely, substantive has been acknowledged by his 147,000 followers on and courteous responses to hon. and right hon. Members Twitter. But even Kevin is not immune to cyber-bullying, on both sides of the Chamber. That is what they ought to trolling and to vitriol being directed at him because to do, and I trust that the Leader of the House will of his autism. ensure that they are up to the mark. To appreciate the seriousness of bullying and hate The second point relates to the question of particular crime, we need only look at the tragic case of Fiona immigration cases. I recognise that there has long Pilkington, who took her own life and that of her been great pressure on the immigration system, under daughter Francecca Hardwick in 2007, after 10 years of successive Governments, but I hope that the right hon. harassment by bullies in her neighbourhood. The case Gentleman will understand that I cannot comment on has been well documented, and the resulting how long it might take to resolve a particular case, recommendations are in line with what I am proposing however needy it might be. However, courtesy, timeliness in the Bill. A few years ago, in one of my neighbouring and comprehensiveness of replies are to be expected constituencies, Brent Martin, a young man with learning from Ministers in relation to correspondence, just as disabilities, was beaten to death by three people he took they are rightly expected from Ministers in relation to to be friends. That was a sad case in which a vulnerable parliamentary questions. I trust that that message will individual was physically abused and murdered by so-called have been heard, and that it will now be heeded. friends. There are ever-growing concerns that hate crime against vulnerable groups is on the rise. My only hope is that the rise is not, as many vulnerable people feel, indicative of an increasing antipathy towards people who are perceived to be different from the rest of society. According to Home Office figures for 2011-12, there were 43,748 hate crimes recorded by the police. Of those recorded hate crimes, 82% were race-related; 10% were related to sexual orientation; 4% were religiously motivated; and 4%—only 1,474—were recorded as disability hate crimes. What we need to see happen is for offences motivated by hostility towards the disabled or those with learning disabilities or difficulties to be treated in the same way as those motivated by racial or religious hatred. The victims of these crimes are equally aggrieved and equally harmed as anyone in any other category. I think we can all agree that we want disabled people to be protected from criminals and bullies, and in order to guarantee this, we need an effective system whereby hate crimes against these vulnerable individuals are properly reported, recorded and reviewed to combat this scourge. 941 Hate Crime (People with Learning 30 OCTOBER 2013 Hate Crime (People with Learning 942 Difficulties and Learning Disabilities) Difficulties and Learning Disabilities) I am not sure how many right hon. and hon. Members disabilities or difficulties—and therein lies a catalogue have had the opportunity to read Mencap’s revealing of untold misery. The last few statistics highlight the report “Don’t stand by: ending disability hate crime necessity for improved police training when it comes to together”, which investigated how 14 police forces in identifying, first, whether a person is disabled and which the UK report disability hate crime and further highlighted type of disability they have and, secondly, whether what how reported disability hate crime against those with they are reporting is a hate crime. learning disabilities and difficulties was significantly Many people with learning difficulties and disabilities, lower than actual disability hate crime. The report also including autism, find it difficult to communicate with found that, although many forces recorded disability others, and this has resulted in some quite horrific cases. hate crime, only one force recorded it by type of You may have heard, Mr Speaker, about the teenage impairment—physical, sensory and learning disabilities boy with autism who attended a special educational and mental health conditions. That is concerning. As needs school. While he was visiting a swimming pool, reported last year by the Director of Public Prosecutions, staff became concerned about him, and he was physically some force areas recorded a nil return for disability hate restrained and handcuffed by police. That resulted in crime—I treat that with incredulity. the family receiving damages, and the High Court described Another element found in the report, as well as in the the treatment of the boy as “inhuman and degrading”. joint review of disability hate crime, was the inability of This case highlights the need for autism, learning disabilities, some police officers to distinguish between learning learning difficulties and general disability awareness disability or difficulty hate crime and general antisocial training for police officers. behaviour. In fact, Steve Ashley, programme director to It is important that we accept that this is a national Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, who conducted problem and a national scandal, when people with the joint review, said that there was a lack of willingness learning disabilities and difficulties are having dreadful by police officers and police staff in control rooms to experiences because of bullying, verbal and physical put the right sort of questions to vulnerable people to abuse and intimidation. There needs to be a clear definition establish their condition as a victim. Furthermore, improved of disability hate crime, which encompasses people with information sharing between all agencies is essential to learning disabilities and difficulties, and disability hate ensure that hate crimes against those with learning crime should become a specific criminal offence. Police difficulties and disabilities are properly reported and forces around the country need to accept that this is a that prosecutions are pursued as vigorously as racial or problem that needs to be dealt with and that there is a religious hate crimes. proper recording method when such crimes occur. We It is a sad fact that all too many victims with learning must urge police forces and police and crime commissioners difficulties or disabilities do not report to the police in to take learning disability and difficulty hate crime the first instance. In 2010, only 1,200 cases of disability seriously in their individual force areas. hate crime were prosecuted, compared with 48,000 racist We need to ensure that people with learning difficulties or religious crimes. A survey by the National Autistic and disabilities are protected from this unwanted and Society, however, revealed that 81% of respondents said unwarranted harassment, physical harm and mental they had experienced verbal abuse; 47% reported that torture, which can often make lives a misery and indeed they had been victims of a physical assault; and only lead to tragic consequences. In preparation for this Bill, 6% said they had not experienced any form of bullying I was assisted by contributions from the National Autistic or abuse because of their disability. Furthermore, 28% of Society, Leonard Cheshire Disability, Mencap, Dimensions respondents had experienced exploitation, theft and UK and a personal account from active campaigner, fraud or had had their possessions or property damaged; Kevin Healey. I place on record my thanks to all of 24% had been victims of cyber-bullying; 65% had them. experienced hate crime more than 10 times; 73% did not Question put and agreed to. report the crime to police, while of those who did, Ordered, 54% said the police did not record it as a hate crime, That Ian Mearns, Pat Glass, Mark Durkan, Mrs Mary and 40% said the police did not act on their report; and Glindon, John McDonnell, Annette Brooke, Heather 62% said they did not think that the police had taken Wheeler, Grahame M. Morris, Ian Lavery, Mr Robert disability into account in the recording or otherwise of Buckland, Craig Whittaker and Paul Farrelly present the crime. the Bill. That is a sample, but we should multiply that by the Ian Mearns accordingly presented the Bill. hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people who Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on are either on the autistic spectrum or have learning Friday 24 January 2014, and to be printed. (Bill 122). 943 30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 944

In 2010, when the British people lent the Prime Opposition Day Minister their trust and he used to talk about things like the big society, the Government believed in having a [9TH ALLOTTED DAY] motivated, professional teacher cohort. At that time, the Prime Minister rightly said that Qualified Teachers “the most important thing that will determine” Mr Speaker: I advise the House that no amendment whether children succeed at school has been selected. I shall shortly call Mr Tristram Hunt, “is not their background, or the curricula, or the type of school, but let me point out that as a consequence of the or the amount of funding. It’s who the teacher is.” statement, truncated time is available for this debate Sadly, since then the Secretary of State has focused and no fewer than 16 Members wish to speak, which is entirely on curricula, school structure and reducing reflected in the short time-limit. There is, of course, no funding, and has done little to support the skills and time-limit on Front-Bench speeches, but I politely suggest capacities of our teachers. that it would be a considerable discourtesy to Back Benchers if Front Benchers were to take longer than Several hon. Members rose— 40 minutes in their opening speeches. The Secretary of State looks a bit alarmed at that, but there is no reason Tristram Hunt: I should be delighted to give way to for him to look alarmed; I am sure he can cope, and that my hon. Friend the. Member for Huddersfield the shadow Secretary of State can cope, too. (Mr Sheerman).

1.48 pm Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Before my hon. Friend gives way to a Government Member, Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): I beg may I remind him that in the past a Labour Government to move, went out of their way to secure talented teachers from a That this House endorses the view that in state funded schools much broader background? They introduced all sorts of teachers should be qualified or working towards qualified teacher status while they are teaching. ways of getting into teaching that were innovative and good, and I saw real changes in our teaching force as a In moving this motion, the Opposition call on the result. We did some very good things, and they did not Government to uphold the highest standards in our lead to the employment of unqualified teachers.. schools. We are delighted that the Deputy Prime Minister—if not his Schools Minister, as we never quite Tristram Hunt: My hon. Friend has made the crucial know on whose side he is talking—appears finally to point that Teach First was a Labour innovation. We have accepted the Labour party’s position on ensuring believe in innovation, but we also believe in some basic qualified teacher status within our schools. As if we standards in our schools. needed any further proof of the importance of this point, events at the Secretary of State’s Al-Madinah The Secretary of State used to praise teaching standards free school in Derby—where the teaching was inadequate, in Finland, South Korea and Singapore, saying: the school dysfunctional and the care of those with “In all those countries teaching is a high prestige profession.” special educational needs a disgrace—proved that right. How would the Government ensure that it remained so? This afternoon I shall set out the importance of “By making it difficult to become a teacher.” having a professionally qualified teacher work force; the But what has the Secretary of State done in office? He role that this work force play in allowing children in our has done everything possible to make it as easy as schools to reach their full potential; and to urge the possible to assume control of a classroom. He has Liberal Democrats to rediscover their progressive credentials. undermined the profession, sought to remove teacher I hope to do so succinctly, Mr Speaker, so that many of training from universities, and adopted a policy of my colleagues can contribute. wholesale deregulation. That has led to a 141% increase in the number of unqualified teachers in free schools Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con) rose— and academies. The surprising truth is that under this Tristram Hunt: I shall give way first to a teacher. Government, people need more qualifications to get a job in a burger bar than to teach in an English school. Andrew Percy: Yes, and one with qualified teacher While I salute the efforts of restaurant chains to improve status—unlike, perhaps, some others. the skills of their work forces, I should like history May I press the shadow Secretary of State on that teachers, as well as hamburger restaurant managers, to issue of qualified teacher status? I taught at a time when have some basic qualifications. we had a Labour Government and, at that time, we saw a massive increase in the number of unqualified teachers, Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): The hon. Gentleman a massive increase in the number of instructors, and a is, in my opinion at least, a fine historian. He will recall massive increase in the number of teaching assistants that when he was at school he was taught by a very fine taking classes when planning and preparation time was teacher, Terry Morris, who was the head of the history introduced. What has changed the hon. Gentleman’s department. Will he tell the House whether Mr Morris mind? was a qualified teacher, or simply an inspiration? Tristram Hunt: Today we are focusing on the future. Tristram Hunt: The great thing about qualified teachers Under future Labour Governments, we will have qualified is that they can be both qualified and an inspiration. teachers in our classrooms. I find it extraordinary that [Interruption.] I know that the Conservative party is Government Members do not want the best-qualified, developing something of an obsession with me, so let best-trained teacher work force in the world. me say that if Conservative Members want to invite me 945 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 946 to a special session of the 1922 Committee to talk about can be adapted for children of different ages and how my past and history, I shall be more than willing to take pupils with special needs can be supported, and they up their invitation. need an understanding of the latest research on learning. Why does the Labour party believe in having qualified I applaud the Government’s focus on ensuring that teachers in our classrooms? The Secretary of State’s teachers have good subject knowledge, but—as you well 2010 White Paper put it best: know, Mr Speaker—they also need the attributes that “The first and most important, lesson is that no education will secure discipline and authority in the classroom system can be better than the quality of its teachers. The most and produce a safe learning environment. Those are the successful countries…are those where teaching has the highest qualities that qualified teacher status can help to provide, status as a profession’’. and they can ensure even higher standards and happier In Finland, the world’s highest-performing education school days for young people. That is certainly the view system, teacher education is led by universities, and all of the chief inspector of schools. Last year, Sir Michael teachers are qualified to Master level. In Singapore, all Wilshaw, the man who had been hand-picked by the teachers are fully trained and have annual training Education Secretary to head Ofsted, told the Education entitlements. The most effective way in which to improve Committee: our children’s education is to boost the quality, elevate “I would expect all the teachers in my school to have qualified the standing, and raise the standards of our teaching teacher status.” profession. We need to train teachers up, not talk them We all know experts in their field whom we would not down. trust with the teaching of our children. The hon. Member Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): My hon. Friend has for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) is a not unoriginal just alluded to the very point that I wanted to make. scholar of the Plantagenets, but I am not sure that he The Secretary of State thinks that it is okay for us to could deliver a history course for six-year-olds. The have unqualified teachers, but also lauds the Finnish hon. Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride) has a system, under which the minimum retirement for a background in aviation, but I would not necessarily teacher is to be a qualified professional with a Master’s trust him with year 7. A great mind might produce a degree. great teacher, but a common standard of training is far more likely to ensure that that is the case most of the Tristram Hunt: That is exactly the difference between time—and that is why the motion is in favour of delivering the parties. We believe in professionalisation rather a qualified teaching profession all the time. than deregulation. We believe in going up the value chain rather than deskilling. The point is simple: good Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): I think I am teachers change lives. They engender aspiration, curiosity, right in saying that my hon. Friend took part in the self-improvement and a hunger for knowledge. It is Teach First initiative this year. I did, and I hope that I teaching that awakens the passion for learning that a was able to give something to the young people with prosperous society and a vibrant economy so desperately whom I spent an hour. They certainly gave a great deal need. The Secretary of State should heed the words of to me. However, what I learnt most from were the skills Andreas Schleicher of the OECD, who has argued for that the teacher displayed in the classroom, and the teaching to be elevated ability of that teacher to connect with all the children. “to a profession of high-level knowledge workers, who work Is that not why the debate is so important? autonomously and contribute to the profession within a collaborative culture.” Tristram Hunt: My hon. Friend makes a brilliant point: that pedagogy, as well as subject knowledge, is Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) absolutely essential. It seems bizarre that we simply do (LD): I hope that the whole debate will affirm the not want the best-skilled teachers possible. importance of teachers, qualified teachers, and the teaching profession. The hon. Gentleman is new to his post and fairly new to Parliament, but can he confirm first that Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): First, may I under Labour an Act was passed which allowed unqualified reassure the hon. Gentleman that I do not have an teachers to work in schools set up by Labour, and obsession with him? I speak as someone who also has a secondly that there are fewer unqualified teachers in PGCE to my name on top of my degree, but please do our schools now than when Labour was in government? not confuse being qualified and being able to teach pupils with bits of paper. I have seen plenty of excellent Tristram Hunt: Last year, the Liberal Democrats had teachers without PGCEs and some pretty poor ones a chance in the other place to support qualified teacher with, and I think the hon. Gentleman is getting the two status. We have now heard the Deputy Prime Minister rather mixed up. say that they believe in it. The only answer that interests me now is whether Liberal Democrat Front Benchers Tristram Hunt: This is about reducing the risk in the will vote for their values this afternoon. teaching system. This is about making sure we go up the The use of the word “profession” is important here, value chain in terms of qualifications and teacher capacity. because we take a different view from the Government. As it has been raised, let me deal with the issue of We believe that teaching is more than a craft. Personally, non-qualified teachers in the private sector. First, figures I am full of admiration for craftsmen and craftswomen—I from the Independent Schools Council show that 90% of represent Stoke-on-Trent, where, according to J.B. Priestley, those teaching in such schools have a teaching qualification the greatest craftsmen and craftswomen, the master and over 70% have qualified teacher status. Secondly, if potters, lived—but we think that teachers need to know head teachers in the private sector wish to employ about more than just classroom technique. Teachers teachers without QTS, that is their decision. But a need to know how children develop, how subject knowledge Labour Government will demand a minimum standard 947 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 948

[Tristram Hunt] of the Liberal creed. While the Tory Party supported King and class, our parties are parties of the word—of of QTS for those teaching within the state system. As a belief in the liberating potential of education—which Secretary of State for Education, I am not going to is why it is so depressing to see a once-progressive party allow for the deregulatory free-for-all which produces sign up to this narrow vision of education: of deregulation, the likes of Al-Madinah. of dumbing-down and a lack of ambition for our schools. Great teachers broaden horizons, motivate students, Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): and help young people achieve their potential. It is time Has the hon. Gentleman made any assessment of the for the Liberal Democrats to show the parents, pupils quality of the teachers we are talking about here, who and teachers of this country whose side they are on and will be sacked after two years? There are fewer than to vote for their values this afternoon. In the Labour there were when his party left office, we have a tightened-up Party, we have made our choice: professionalism not the Ofsted regulation regime, and there is no place to deregulation; a qualified teacher in every classroom. I hide on data and exam results, so I put it to him that a commend this motion to the House. head teacher would only employ a non-QTS teacher today if they were above-average and were delivering a 2.5 pm brilliant service to children in the classroom. The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): I welcome the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central Tristram Hunt: When those teachers get into school, (Tristram Hunt) to his place as shadow Secretary of we want them to train up for QTS. This is simply about State. It is a pleasure to have a historian representing going up the improvement chain. It seems to me entirely the Labour party on this issue and it was a joy for me to uncontroversial. hear him talk about Hobhouse and Keynes, Owen and Let me also stress that our plans do not affect the the mechanics institutes. It is marvellous to have a artists, the actor, the footballer, builder, businessman or, historian there. However, when he was asked by one of dare I say it, historian—missing the more incisive quality my hon. Friends about more recent history, to wit the of debate which a year 5 can provide—who comes into Labour party’s record on teaching, his mind was a a class to inspire young people about their subjects. For curious blank. He said he was focused on the future. those teachers holding that enormous responsibility for What a pity that when he was asked that first history the learning outcomes of young people, however, we question, he passed. would expect, like Sir Michael Wilshaw, a minimum baseline qualification. Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab) rose— So let me return to the core of this motion: how do Michael Gove: No. What a pity that when the hon. we deliver improvements in our schools system and Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central was asked about close the attainment gap? The answer is great teaching. one of his former history teachers—Mr Morris, I believe— Part of that is strong leadership. Part of that is the like Peter, he denied him thrice, and when he was asked innovation that comes from Labour’s Teach First policy. to stand up for Mr Morris, who has done so much for Part of that is autonomy. But it is also about further this young lad to help him into the position he now professional development: about stretching our teachers; enjoys, he refused to stand up for him. Then when he about learning to improve at every turn. was asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Achieving QTS is not the whole answer. It does not in Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) about itself, as the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) Labour’s record on education, once more he declined to said, guarantee excellence. As the Secretary of State answer the question. He may have a PhD from Cambridge, well knows, passing a driving test does not mean that all but one thing he has to learn about education in our new drivers will avoid accidents, but this is not a reason state schools today is, “You do not pass if you don’t to remove the requirement to pass a test. Removing the answer the questions.” He did not answer the questions; expectation of QTS means we endanger the status of he has failed his first test in the House of Commons. the teaching profession at a time when we need to raise the status of teaching if we are to succeed in what the Chris Williamson rose— Prime Minister calls the global race. The countries with Michael Gove: No, thank you. [Interruption.] The the most successful education systems are going up the hon. Gentleman has not even asked a question, but I value chain, not deskilling. They are raising the status will answer all his points in due course. of teaching, not opening the door to our classrooms to anyone who just wants to have a go. As the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central knows, we are fortunate because under the coalition Government We have brought this motion to the House because we now have—[Interruption.] I will answer the question; the Labour party is passionate about education. From he did not. We now have the best generation of teachers— the earliest days of Robert Owen and the co-operative movement, from our history in the mechanics institutes Chris Williamson rose— and the mutual improvement societies, from the Workers Educational Association to the trade union movement, Michael Gove: In a moment; all in good time. academic and vocational excellence is engrained in the [Interruption.] I know the hon. Gentleman is impatient; Labour movement’s DNA. And so too with the Liberals: he is a young one as well. stretching back to the Forster Education Act, or the We have the best ever generation of teachers in our role of education in that positive vision of freedom schools. Gerard Kelly of The Times Educational Supplement enunciated by T. H. Green and L. T. Hobhouse, or John has said: Maynard Keynes’s ambition for post-war cultural “Contrary to most reports, teaching in Britain has never been enrichment, social mobility and progress has been part in better health” 949 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 950 and it every worthwhile initiative. Let us not forget that when “is a more respected profession and a more attractive graduate Teach First was launched, the National Union of destination than it has been for many years.” Teachers, which seems to be writing Labour’s policy We are also fortunate that we have, as the OECD has these days, accused “Teach Firsters”of being unqualified. reminded us, the best generation of heads in our schools, One teacher at the time said: and more and more of them are now enjoying the “When I first”— autonomy from bureaucracy and freedom from micro- heard about— management that the coalition Government have brought. “Teach First I just thought ‘no way’…My fear was that they were They need that freedom because of the problems we totally untrained teachers.” inherited in our education system. As the OECD reported But Andrew Adonis, someone who does know something just last month, our 16 to 25-year-olds—those who about state education, pressed ahead and backed, as we were educated under Labour—have some of the worst back, Teach First, and “Teach Firsters”, who were levels of literacy and numeracy in the developed world. damned as “unqualified teachers” at the time, are now We are the only country in the developed world whose responsible for securing an improvement in every school oldest citizens are more literate and numerate than our in which they operate. They were damned as “unqualified” youngest adults, and what makes matters worse is that and introduced by a charity, and they are driving up educational underperformance under Labour was standards. That proves that we have the best generation concentrated in the poorest areas. of teachers ever in our schools, and it is all a direct result of the initiative of individual teachers and the Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab) rose— generous support that we have given, because Teach First has expanded as never before under this Government. Michael Gove: I am happy to give way to the hon. Lady. Kevin Brennan: Will the Secretary of State confirm that it was the Labour Government who supported the Julie Hilling: I thank the Secretary of State for giving introduction of Teach First and supported its expansion? way. It seems to me that his maths is not quite adding Will he also confirm that the figures he quoted on an up, because surely those teachers who are coming into increase in the number of unqualified teachers, which our schools now, and who are, as he just said, the best were in a parliamentary answer to me from the Minister teachers that have ever come through, will have been for Schools, include people undertaking Teach First educated under a Labour Government. Why is he running who are on their way to qualified teacher status? down the profession and why does he not agree that those teachers who are qualified should be joined by the Michael Gove: I will happily acknowledge that there other teachers becoming qualified? are fewer unqualified teachers now, under the coalition, and that it was we who expanded Teach First. What the Michael Gove: How could I be running down the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central failed to profession when I have just applauded this generation acknowledge when he was asked a direct question by as the best ever? Why is the hon. Lady so ungracious two of my colleagues is that Labour’s record on teacher that she does not acknowledge that under this coalition qualifications was weaker than ours. Government we have the best quality of teaching ever? Andrew Percy: Will the Secretary of State also confirm Let me answer the question that the hon. Member for that the situation is worse than those figures on unqualified Stoke-on-Trent Central failed to answer. He has one teachers would suggest, because we also saw a massive sole criterion by which a good teacher will be judged: increase then in the use of cover supervisors, who were the possession of a single piece of paper which entitles often used for very long periods to teach GCSE courses someone to QTS. That is all he talked about in his that they had never passed the exams for? speech. [Interruption.] He cannot have a second bite at the cherry. No resits for the hon. Gentleman. That was Michael Gove: As ever, my hon. Friend is absolutely his case. But the truth is that under Labour the number right. He speaks with experience from the front line and of unqualified teachers rose and under the coalition it he knows that it was under Labour that, unfortunately, has fallen. When we came to power there were 17,800 there was a growth in the use of cover supervisors in a unqualified teachers in our schools. The figure decreased number of schools. Unfortunately, in tough schools to 15,800 and is now 14,800. Under Labour, the number such as the one he helped to turn round we did not have of unqualified teachers rose to a high point of 18,800, people with the qualities needed to hold the attention of so by the criterion that the hon. Gentleman applies the a class and to transform young lives. That is changing last Labour Government were a signal failure and this now, and one reason for that, which the hon. Member coalition Government have been a resounding success. for Stoke-on-Trent Central failed to acknowledge, is The Labour Front Benchers talk about Teach First— that we are introducing a raft of reforms that are helping to improve teaching in all our schools. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Sheerman: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Michael Gove: In a second, eager beaver. Michael Gove: Iamalwayshappytogivewaytothe Interestingly, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent hon. Gentleman. Central called Teach First “Labour’s Teach First”. That will be a surprise to Brett Wigdortz, who set it up; it is a Mr Sheerman: May I, for a moment, just raise the charity. It is wholly contrary to the co-operative spirit level of debate, rather than have this ding-dong? We all that the hon. Gentleman lauds that he instantly nationalises want well-qualified, well-motivated teachers who are 951 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 952

[Mr Sheerman] I also hope that the Opposition will applaud the increase in the number of highly qualified graduates continuously professionally developed—that is the truth. from our top universities in our schools. When we came We should agree on this across the Benches and get on to power only 62% of those entering the teaching profession with it, rather than raking over daft stats from the past. had a 2:1 or better, whereas the figure now is 71%. So we have a prestigious profession attracting more highly Michael Gove: I am only too happy to agree with the qualified people and transforming more lives. hon. Gentleman, who, as ever, speaks sense. However, it was not the Government who brought this motion and Simon Hughes: Not only do I have the privilege of it was not me who failed to answer the question politely being the Member of Parliament for Bermondsey and put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey Old Southwark—the MP for Teach First—but I am still and Old Southwark. I am enlightening the House in a a chair of a primary school governing body and a way that, I am afraid, the hon. Gentleman’s Front-Bench trustee of Bacon’s college. As such, I can confirm that team failed to do. I agree with him about continuous the view of the head teachers and the governors in my professional development, which is why we are changing constituency is that the quality of teachers now is better the way in which we support teachers, through the than it has ever been, across the board, and that Teach establishment of teaching schools. We have 357 teaching First has contributed hugely to the inward pressure of schools that have been established. I presume that the new people—although, of course, with educational hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central supports that qualifications they would be better still. initiative, applauds the teachers who are involved in it and believes it is the right thing to do. It will be interesting to see whether the hon. Member for Cardiff West Michael Gove: As is so often the case, my right hon. (Kevin Brennan) backs it when the opportunity comes. Friend strikes a balanced and sensible note. He has made the point that under the coalition Government We are also changing the way in which teachers are education has improved, and that teachers once damned trained. The Times Higher Education has reported that as “unqualified” by the trade unions and others are under its new inspection regime Ofsted pointed out that driving improvement in our schools. If only we could school-centred initial teacher training—SCITT—is in hear more of him on education and rather less from many cases better than higher education initial teacher some in the Labour party. training. According to Times Higher Education, 31% of the school-centred initial teacher training centres inspected It is not just the quality of teaching that has improved; were outstanding whereas only 13% of higher-education attainment has improved for our very poorest. One of institution centres were. So we are moving teacher training the starkest problems in the education system that we from those institutions that are performing less well inherited was the gulf between the achievement of the relatively—some of them are still “outstanding”—to wealthy and that of the poorest in our schools. That gap those that are performing better. That is a real improvement has narrowed thanks to the teachers in our schools, to in the quality of teacher training and professional whom I, once again, wish to pay tribute today. At key development. stage 4 we inherited a gap of 27.6 points in exam We have also introduced tougher standards, by which performance, but that has been reduced to 26.3. At all teachers are judged. We got rid of the fuzzy standards primary we inherited a gap of 21.3 points between the that used to prevail under the previous Government poorest and the rest, and that has closed to 16.8. I hope and we have drawn up new, professional standards. that everyone in the House would applaud that movement They were drawn up by Sally Coates, the head teacher towards helping the poorest children do better. of Burlington Danes academy, in alliance with Joan Deslandes of Kingsford community school, Patricia Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): To truly tackle the Sowter of Cuckoo Hall and Sir Dan Moynihan of social mobility crisis that exists in our country we need Harris academies. Again, the question for the hon. much more radical action than the schemes, no doubt Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central and his Front-Bench well intentioned, that the Secretary of State is talking colleagues is: do they believe that the introduction of about. Will he examine the open access scheme championed these new teacher standards was the right thing to do? by Peter Lampl of the Sutton Trust and consider Do they support them? Do they back them? Do they introducing it for the 100 leading independent schools recognise that they drive improved performance in the in our country? classroom? Do they also recognise that as a result of our changes the quality of teaching is higher than ever Michael Gove: The hon. Gentleman—I hesitate to before? call him that because he is increasingly becoming my My hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness hon. Friend; he knows what he is talking about and is (Mr Stuart) rightly pointed out that we have a tougher the son of a head teacher—is absolutely right to say Ofsted regime and a more rigorous accountability regime that we need more help from independent schools in than ever before; it is tougher for someone to prove that improving the state sector. I think that Peter Lampl is a they are outstanding. Under Labour 13% of teaching at hero, but one of the things that the hon. Gentleman and primary schools and 11% of secondary teaching was I both believe in—independent schools helping state outstanding, whereas the latest figures show that under schools—would be more difficult as a direct result of the coalition Government those proportions have risen. official Labour party policy, as it would ban teachers in The number of outstanding primary lessons has increased independent schools who do not have qualified teacher by 12% and the number of secondary lessons judged status from helping out in the way we would both want. “outstanding” has gone up by a third. So more quality His aim is noble and his heart is in the right place but he teaching is benefiting more students in more schools as is on the wrong side of the House. I hope he will come a result of the changes we have made. over to our side, where logic will inevitably lead him. 953 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 954

Mr Graham Stuart: May I correct my right hon. Tristram Hunt: Will the Secretary of State give way? Friend, because the policy is worse than that? The net effect of this highly scrutinised system of sacking people Michael Gove: In a second. who do not have QTS will be to take high-quality The difference between Liberal Democrat and teachers who make such a difference to the lives of the Conservative policy, however, is not as big as the difference poorest children out of the classroom. To maintain between those on the Labour Benches. In particular, I their living, these teachers will be sent to the independent mean the difference between the hon. Member for Stoke- sector, where doubtless they will educate the children of on-Trent Central on one side and the hon. Member for people such as the shadow Secretary of State. Stoke-on-Trent Central on the other. We all know that the hon. Gentleman is a distinguished historian of the Michael Gove: The Chairman of the Select Committee civil war, and he knows all about a body politic being is right once again. This is a policy for generating racked by internal division. What a pity that it is his unemployment for excellent teachers in the state sector body politic that is being so racked. and giving the wealthy—those who have the advantage Let us listen to the cavalier Tristram, talking to of the cash that enables them to pay for an independent Conservative-supporting The Mail on Sunday. He said: education—the freedom to benefit from them. It is also “What I am saying is if you want to do that”— important to recognise that the freedom to employ whoever a head teacher believes to be important and that is, set up a free school— capable of adding value to education is essential to the “when we are in government we will be on your side. There has academies and free schools programme. been this perception that we would not be, and I want people to be absolutely clear that we are…putting rocket boosters on getting It is important that Opposition Members are not behind parents and social entrepreneurs…We are not going…back”— selective in their use of evidence when they talk about no turning back— academies and free schools, because academic results “to the old days of the local authority running all the schools—they are improving faster in sponsored academies than in will not be in charge.” other schools, and the longer schools have enjoyed Three cheers for the cavalier. academy freedoms, the better they have done. In sponsored academies, open for three years and taking advantage Then the puritan—the roundhead—Member for Stoke- of the freedoms we have given them, the proportion of on-Trent Central suddenly popped up a few hours later pupils who achieve five good GCSEs including English on the BBC talking about the free schools that he had and maths has increased by an average of 12.1 percentage been lauding just a few hours earlier. He said that points. Over the same time, results in all state-funded “you have…a system which allows…irregularities” schools have gone up, which is good, but only by and 5.1 percentage points. “allegations…because there’s no oversight there.” We are clearly seeing academies and free schools He said that it was a “dangerous ideological experiment”, generating improved results for the students who need yet only a few hours before, it was an ideological them most. More than that, free schools, overwhelmingly experiment with which he had fallen in love. One of the in the poorest areas, have been backed by Andrew flaws in this ideological experiment, he said— Adonis and Tony Blair. Andrew Adonis said that free schools were essentially Labour’s invention and Tony Tristram Hunt rose— Blair, the former Prime Minister, backed them, saying that they were a great idea, explicitly because they were Michael Gove: In a second—[HON.MEMBERS: “Give “independent schools in the state sector”. way.”] No, I think that the House is enjoying this He backed them because they had all the freedoms of section of my speech. I will conclude it in just a moment. great independent schools, like University College school The hon. Gentleman said: and others, to do the right thing for their students. “We are not going to go back to the old days of the local authority…they will not be in charge”, Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): but then on Thursday he said that the problem with free Not for the first time, there is a lack of logic in what the schools was that local education authorities had no role Secretary of State is saying. If unqualified teachers are in monitoring those schools. Within four days there has doing such a good job and are so able, why would they been a complete U-turn, a reversal, as the civil war in find it so hard to achieve formal qualifications? the Labour party between those who believe in excellence and those who believe in the unions is embodied in one Michael Gove: If they are doing such a good job, why man. In four days there has been one U-turn and no would the hon. Gentleman want to see them sacked? As answers. I am very happy to give way now. far as he and those on his Front Bench are concerned, the only way in which someone can be a good teacher is Tristram Hunt: I am delighted that the Secretary of if a single piece of paper is conferred on them. We State has finally given way. Let me be clear that the believe that the right person to decide who should teach difference between our policy and that of the Government in a school is the head teacher, not the bureaucrats. is that we believe in social enterprise and innovation but Another point that it is important to remember—I also believe in having qualified teachers in the classroom shall be explicit about this point, which was hinted at by and systems of financial accountability and transparency, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central—is that so that we do not end up with the chaos that we saw at there is a difference of opinion between the two coalition Al-Madinah and Bradford. Let me go back to his parties about the future of the policy on academies and earlier point, however. When did the division in the free schools. It has been a success so far, one in which coalition between the Liberal Democrats and the we share, and I pay tribute to the Liberal Democrats for Conservatives on qualified teacher status first emerge? supporting it. Can he talk us through the history? 955 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 956

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. As a historian, the hon. Gentleman should know that Interventions must be brief, however important the excessive reliance on just one source leads to errors. Of point might be to the person who is making it. course, there have been other historians whose selective reading of evidence has allowed them to make a splash Michael Gove: I know that the hon. Gentleman is at times in the past, such as Hugh Trevor-Roper, for interested in splits, because he embodies one. He is a one, with the Hitler diaries. But although he caused a one-man walking split-generating machine. On the one stir, he also sacrificed his credibility permanently. That hand, he is determined to remove schools from the is what the hon. Gentleman has done by refusing to hands of local authorities, whereas on the other he acknowledge the brilliant record of free schools overall. wants to impose them on them. He has refused to acknowledge that 50% of new local authority schools have been rated good or outstanding I fear that one thing the hon. Gentleman does not in the latest Ofsted ranking, whereas 75% of free schools appreciate is the fact that academies and free schools have been ranked good or outstanding. The evidence face a greater degree of scrutiny than local authority overwhelmingly shows that where it counts, free schools schools. He has argued that we need local authority are outperforming local authority schools. oversight because the current regime is not enough, but is he aware that academies face an annual audit from Julie Hilling: I thank the Secretary of State for giving the Education Funding Agency? They must have way. I have forgotten why I wanted him to give way independently audited financial accounts. They must earlier, but on his last point, how many of those free appoint an accounting officer who has personal schools are teaching less pupils—[HON.MEMBERS:“Fewer responsibility to the National Audit Office and, through pupils.”]—fewer pupils because they have not filled all that office, to Parliament. Those accounts must have a their places? My local free school has far smaller class regularity opinion from external auditors that sets out sizes because it cannot fill those places. how regularity over income and expenditure has been obtained. Free schools must also undergo their own Michael Gove rose— financial management evaluation, which is counter-checked by the Education Funding Agency. That is regulation. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Before the Secretary of State replies to that intervention, What about local authorities, by contrast? The National may I gently remind him that the Speaker asked for Audit Office has said: brief opening speeches? There are many Members on “Local authorities do not publish systematic data to demonstrate both sides of the House who want to participate, so I how they are monitoring schools’ financial management and that am sure he is keeping that in mind as he comes to the they are intervening where necessary.” conclusion of his speech. There we have it: academies are properly regulated whereas local authority schools are not, according to Michael Gove: I am bearing that in mind, Madam the National Audit Office, regulated with anything like Deputy Speaker, but I thought it was important that the the same degree of intensity. House was acquainted with evidence, there being a As laid out in the academies financial handbook, distinct lack of it in the speech from the hon. Member if there is any problem with their finances academies for Stoke-on-Trent Central. must ensure that they comply with the financial notice to One of the things that I wanted to stress is that if the improve and seek consent to any non-routine financial Labour policy is enacted, that will mean that there are transaction. Local authorities, of course, have similar people currently teaching in the state sector in academies powers to suspend delegated financial functions, but and free schools who will lose their jobs—people like there is no central record of their doing so in local Anita Zarska, who is a chemistry teacher at the new authority schools, whereas there are many records and East London science school, who has a PhD in molecular examples of academies and free schools being subject biology. She would lose her job. Howard Bowden, a to precisely the sort of regulatory oversight that local graduate of Trinity Cambridge, the same college as the authority schools lack. For that reason, academies and hon. Gentleman went to, is teaching at Batley grammar free schools are better regulated and better protected. and has won national awards for teaching. He would lose his job. Jane Macbride at Priory community school The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central mentioned in Weston-super-Mare, former head of an Asda sales one particular free school, the Al-Madinah free school, team, who teaches—appropriately enough—business studies and there were certainly grievous problems there. However, would lose her job. that is just one school with problems; a number of local authority schools, unfortunately, also have the same In the week when we have discovered, as the Sharon ranking from Ofsted and have been graded as Shoesmith case shows, that when Labour politicians 4—inadequate—in every conceivable area. He has not start sacking people in a knee-jerk fashion, the courts mentioned them because he is entirely selective in his can intervene and cost the taxpayer thousands, has the use of evidence. He has not mentioned Hawthorn primary hon. Gentleman consulted his lawyers? Is his policy school, Oakhill primary school, Newtown primary school, compliant with the European convention on human Doncaster Road primary school, St John’s primary rights? Will he ensure that those outstanding teachers school, Stanhope primary school, Long Cross primary who are in our schools now will not be sacked arbitrarily school, Wellfield, Roydon, Rosebrook or a number of as a result of a policy drawn up simply to appease the others. He has not done so because his selective use of teaching unions? The consequence of his policy would evidence has been designed to discredit a programme be to sack them. under which, just a few weeks ago, he said he would put The consequence of the hon. Gentleman’s policy rocket boosters. The problem, I am afraid, is that those would also be that independent schools that have joined rocket boosters have blown up in his face. the state sector through our free school programme 957 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 958 would be barred from opening their doors, as the hon. Several hon. Members rose— Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) wants, to every student who wants to join them—schools such as Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Chetwynde in Barrow, Liverpool college in Liverpool, There are a large number of Members who want to take King’s school in Tynemouth, all of them independent part in the debate. We are starting with a time limit of schools and all with teachers who do not have QTS. All five minutes each. It will be necessary to reduce it if of them would be barred from opening their doors to everybody is to get in. every child as a result of Labour policy. 2.36 pm What of the contribution of outstanding head teachers from the independent sector who are also helping state Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): schools? What about Richard Cairns of Brighton college, Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to who set up the London Academy of Excellence? What take part in this debate. When making decisions about about Stephen Spurr, the head teacher of Westminster education, one question matters above all others: how school, who is opening a new free school with Harris to will this affect the quality of teaching? That is the prism help the poorest children? Neither of those have QTS. through which every educational decision should be Both of them are outstanding. Both of them would be viewed. A great teacher can make the difference between barred from helping poorer children under the hon. a child muddling through, struggling or aiming high. Gentleman’s policy. Research by Professor Eric Hanushek of Stanford The policy of the Labour party in the past prevented university shows that during one year with a very effective many intellectually gifted educators from helping children maths teacher, pupils gained 40% more than they would in need because those people were imprisoned in ivory have with a poor performer. The effects of high quality towers. Take a chap I know called Tristram. Tristram teaching are especially significant for pupils from was an Oxbridge man; he had a top degree; he was disadvantaged backgrounds. Hanushek found that over universally lauded by everyone in his field. He was a a school year, these pupils gain one and a half years’ celebrated media figure. [Interruption.] No, I am not worth of learning with very effective teachers, compared talking about the hon. Gentleman. I am talking about with just half a year of learning with poorly performing Tristram Jones-Parry. I know the hon. Gentleman thinks teachers. So that is the prism through which we should it is all about him, but this is not about him. It is about look at these issues. the children who will be denied the chance to get a Before we make decisions in education, another approach fantastic education because Tristram Jones-Parry, who is to make sure that we follow the evidence. What has a Cambridge degree in mathematics, was barred assessment has the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent from teaching in state schools under Labour and is able Central (Tristram Hunt) made of the quality of teachers to teach in state schools under our policy. without qualified teacher status in the classrooms? He As a result of our policy, we now have support from could shake his head when the Secretary of State was Richard Cairns, the headmaster of Brighton college, speaking, but inevitably people will be sacked from the the best independent school in the country. Katy Ricks, classroom. We have heard these people come forward. the head teacher of Sevenoaks, has said that recruiting The hon. Gentleman is shaking his head now, denying staff, the job of any head teacher, is quite simply about an obvious truth. Teachers without QTS will be sacked getting the best possible person for the job. FASNA, the from the classroom if that policy is implemented. organisation that represents those teachers who are [Interruption.] most keen on freedom and autonomy in driving up We have a rigorous Ofsted regime, tough exam results, standards, says that head teachers should be trusted to mapping, peer review, departmental head review, head hire the right people for the job. teacher review—a whole system of accountability to Everyone who knows anything about how to improve make sure that there is nowhere to hide for the teacher state education, everyone who backs greater autonomy, who is not performing. In that context a head teacher backs our Government’s policy. The one person who has gone out on a limb to recruit someone who is does not, unfortunately, is the hon. Gentleman. He non-QTS. We know, as was not acknowledged by the benefited from great teaching at his private school. It hon. Gentleman, that the number of non-qualified allowed him, as we heard, to make it to Cambridge, but teachers in the teaching profession has fallen. [Interruption]. he would deny that teaching to poor children. He got to We know that the number in free schools and academies Cambridge with the help of men and women who did as a percentage of those employed has fallen over the not have QTS, but who had a great degree and a passion past three years. We therefore have a smaller number of for learning, and now he wants to deny that same teachers who have been through the threshing machine opportunity to poor children. He knows directly what of that accountability system. If they are to have such a great teaching in an independent school is and he says person working for them, head teachers will need to be that poor children should never have the opportunity to sure that when the inspector comes they can point to enjoy the same privileges as he did. exceptional performance. [Interruption.] It is the same old Labour party—“Do as I say, not as The hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) I do”—a Labour party willing to pull up the ladder who barracked and heckled the Secretary of State from the next generation, a Labour party that has throughout his speech is attempting to do the same to benefited from all the advantages that money can buy me. Those teachers, who are necessarily strong and and then, when the poor come knocking on the door, effective teachers, will be fired under his party’s policy. saying, “Liberate us from ignorance,” says, “Sorry, no. That is the central point. We’re with the unions. We are not on your side.” It is shameless and that is why I hope everyone on the Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): On Government Benches will vote against the Opposition the question of which teacher should be employed, we motion. should not listen to the choices and the whims of the 959 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 960

[Mr David Burrowes] Several hon. Members rose— hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt). Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I We should speak to the head teachers, who hire and fire. wondered why Mr Stuart looked startled when I called They are in the best position to know which teachers him to speak, and now I realise that it was because I are best for their school. should have called an Opposition Member. To correct my error, I will now call two Opposition Members Mr Stuart: I agree with my hon. Friend. The shadow before returning to alternating speakers. Secretary of State has come into post at exactly the same time as his party has lurched to the left, and he has 2.42 pm inherited this policy. I put it to him, as someone who has taught in schools as a non-QTS teacher, who benefited Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Having been a college from non-QTS teachers as a pupil and who has suggested principal only three years ago, I bring the perspective of in recent days that he might send his children to schools the head teacher to the debate. In the college I led, the that have inspiring non-QTS teachers in place, that his sixth-formers would have expected debaters to refer to heart really is not in this. the motion. I think that they would have found that much of the Secretary of State’s 30-minute speech Tristram Hunt: There is a world of difference between related not to the motion, but to peripheral issues an external speaker coming into a school to explain concerning free schools and the question of regulation. history, politics or geography and someone in charge of Those are valid areas of debate, but if he had taken the the learning outcomes of an entire class. I would have trouble to read the motion, which I think would have thought that the Chair of the Education Committee been helpful—it is what I would have advised my sixth- knew that. formers to do—he would have seen that it states: “That this House endorses the view that in state funded Mr Stuart: The hon. Gentleman would not answer schools teachers should be qualified or working towards qualified questions about the teacher who taught and inspired teacher status while they are teaching.” him, but he was more than just a visiting lecturer. Having listened to the contributions from Government My children attend an independent school and have Members so far, one might be forgiven for forgetting the non-QTS teachers. I want to ensure that every school important phrase can access people who can inspire pupils within a “working towards qualified teacher status”. system of accountability. If the shadow Secretary of When I appointed teachers, as I did frequently in my State told me, “We’ve carried out an assessment and got 28-year career in education, they either would have the evidence, which shows that some head teachers are teaching qualifications or would be put in a framework taking on unqualified teachers just to save money and in which they could gain them. That was for their sticking them in classrooms with low-ability children, benefit and that of their students, and there is a lot of which is letting them down”, I would be the first to evidence to demonstrate that. I think that any Member congratulate him. I would say, “Yes, let’s look at the who intends to go through the Lobbies tonight ought to right policy response, but let’s not sack top teachers look carefully at the motion. If they vote against it, they who happen to be non-QTS teachers if we can possibly need to understand what they are doing. help it.” I would even accept the hon. Gentleman’s argument Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): I am grateful to the if he could show me, on any kind of evidence base, that hon. Gentleman for drawing us back to the motion. If it widespread numbers of non-QTS teachers are letting down became Government policy, will he explain what would our kids. I put it to him, who has been in post for a happen to those teachers currently employed who did matter of days, that there is no such evidence base. not work towards qualified teacher status? Would he On the contrary, the evidence base shows that non-QTS want them to be sacked? teachers in state schools in some of our toughest neighbourhoods are inspirational. There are often Nic Dakin: As a practical person and a head teacher, teachers who have left the independent sector, where he I would give the people employed in my college a went, where I went and where my children go, in order framework in which they could get those qualifications, to try to make a contribution in state schools in challenging and we could have accreditation of prior learning, circumstances. Under the Opposition’s policy, if those assessments and so on. Those people who have not people do not put themselves through the many hours done the job I did will have theoretical views on this, but required to pass QTS, they will be sacked. That is I know how it is done, because I have done it day in, day absolutely wrong. He should not deny the consequences out. The people out there know how they are running of his policy: it will lead to the removal of outstanding their schools and colleges, and the people who work in teachers from state school classrooms. It will almost them know what they are doing as well. We trust them, certainly see them turning up in independent schools, but they need to be in a framework that delivers. We where they are needed least, rather than most. That also need to listen to what parents are saying. In a is the central flaw in his argument, and I think that he recent YouGov poll, 78% of parents said that they want sees it. the teachers teaching their kids to be qualified. It is early days in the hon. Gentleman’s new post. I I have just left a symposium in Portcullis House on suggest that he has inherited a dreadful policy that is the Finnish teaching system. I was reminded that not entirely against what he and I believe, which is that we only do Finnish teachers need a master’s degree in their should be transforming education for everyone in this subject knowledge, but the degree has to deal with country, and most of all for those from poorer homes pedagogy. That is what teachers need: the knowledge who too often have been left behind. and the pedagogy. That is what I needed when I had 961 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 962 teachers standing in front of the kids in my college who schools but allowing unqualified teachers to teach in I had a responsibility to deliver for. I am sure that is state-funded schools was not one of them. That prompts what people up and down the land want. the question as to why he then whipped Liberal Democrat MPs to vote for it in the first place. Is it simply that he Andrew Percy: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? has seen the polling and recognises that this piece of Government ideology is not a popular policy with Nic Dakin: I am afraid that I cannot give way because voters and is overwhelmingly rejected by parents? so many Members wish to speak and the Secretary of State was so greedy in using up the time. Simon Hughes: The hon. Lady’s competence is well All my experience tells me that essentially there are recognised. Our party, which is a democratic organisation, only two things that really matter in running schools recently debated this issue, and I can confirm that what and colleges: the quality of leadership and the quality the leader said in his speech last week exactly reflected of teaching and learning. If we get those two things what the party voted for by a very large majority at our right, all the rest will follow. Of course, just because conference in March this year. someone has a piece of paper, whether a postgraduate certificate in education, graduate teacher status or whatever, Pat Glass: I recognise and respect that. I therefore does not mean that they can necessarily teach, because expect to see the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues there needs to be a framework of support in their in the Lobby with us tonight. school to ensure that they learn the skills of the profession. When the Deputy Prime Minister spoke at the weekend, To be fair to the Secretary of State, he very much he talked about schools being set free to set their own echoed what the shadow Secretary of State said in school holidays and the times of day when they open underlining the importance of teaching as a profession. and close. Well, I have got news for him: maintained That echoes what the Prime Minister said quite rightly schools have always had that ability. They do not need in 2010, which was that teaching should be a profession. to be a free school or an academy to do that, nor to Well, a profession has proper structures for training, employ unqualified teachers. Maintained schools have qualifications and professional development. That is always had the ability to bring in non-QTS specialists. the framework that delivers high-quality individuals. The person delivering the lesson at the front of the Within that delivery of high-quality individuals, there classroom does not need to be a qualified teacher, but will always be people who need appropriate support. the person who designs, differentiates and manages the The Deputy Prime Minister was right when he made curriculum, manages the lesson plans and is responsible it clear that anybody teaching in our state-funded schools for individual pupil assessment does need to be a qualified should either have qualified teacher status or be on the teacher. On that, I absolutely agree with the Secretary way to gaining it. I am really pleased that the Schools of State. Minister, who is in his place, despite struggling a little to make this clear in the Westminster Hall debate, made it Mr Graham Stuart rose— extremely clear when he appeared before the Select Pat Glass: I am not going to give way any more Committee that he was alongside the Deputy Prime because there is so little time. Minister on that. That is why I am confident, because they are people of honour, that the Deputy Prime The history of Labour in office and unqualified Minister, the Schools Minister and the rest of the teachers shows that in the vast majority of cases, great Liberal Democrats will be alongside us when we vote non-QTS teachers went on to become qualified through for the motion today. the licensed or the classic routes. Government Members say that free schools and academies are now free to 2.49 pm employ teachers who have a master’s degree or a doctorate, and is that not a good thing? I am not altogether sure Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): Over the past about that. I have a master of science degree, but a week, the Minister for Schools and I have duelled a working knowledge of maths and statistics does not couple of times on the qualification of teachers and make me a teacher. Without a bachelor of education initial teacher training, in the Westminster Hall debate degree I would not have the skills and knowledge to that my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic understand child development, the science of teaching Dakin) mentioned and in the Education Committee, so and learning, how children learn, and classroom much of what I say today will not be unfamiliar to him. management and managing behaviour, or to identify I do not disagree with the Government and the the needs of children with special educational needs Secretary of State on all their education policy. I agree and how to meet them. I would not know about with the Secretary of State that we now have in our differentiation, delivering a programme of study across schools the best quality teaching force this country has a range of abilities, or assessment—that is, knowing ever seen. I also agree that the one single thing that what a child can and cannot do, and what they need to improves standards and outcomes is the quality of do next. Important as those things are, I would also not teaching; the difference is that I know what it looks like have the credibility and trust of my professional colleagues, when I see it. I agree with the Deputy Prime Minister of parents, or, more importantly, of young people and the Minister for Schools, who last week made it themselves. Pupils know very quickly who is qualified absolutely clear in the Education Committee, that teachers and who is not, and who is experienced and who is not, in taxpayer-funded schools should be qualified or working and that affects their behaviour and how they learn in towards a qualification while they are teaching. the classroom. I listened carefully to the Deputy Prime Minister The problem with this Government is that they think when he spoke about this on Sunday just gone. He said anybody can teach. I know from experience that as he agreed with many policies on academies and free soon as we move away from the classroom it looks 963 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 964

[Pat Glass] Those policies, which deliver freedom for teachers and schools and help to raise the status of the teaching really easy, but it is not. Teachers are people who profession, have been delivered only because Liberal stand up in front of classrooms every day and deliver Democrats and Conservatives are working together to great lessons. I do not pretend to be a teacher in terms pursue shared interests in coalition. Nevertheless, it of that definition. Being qualified does not make a great cannot surprise anyone that two coalition partners will teacher; it takes more than that. [Interruption.] Iam not always see eye to eye on every issue affecting our glad that Government Members agree with me. As has schools. Liberal Democrats have always been clear that been said, this is not necessarily about the qualification teaching is a highly valued profession that requires a of teachers. Every teacher does not have to be qualified solid understanding of educational values and subject to deliver a great lesson, but surely good qualification is knowledge. Teachers up and down the country are the basis of a state-run system. [Interruption.] Having called to the purpose of doing all they can to transform anything else leaves our children open to—[Interruption.] the life chances of young people, and great teaching has Does my hon. Friend want to intervene? a theoretical and skills-based foundation.

Tristram Hunt: No, I am enthusiastically supporting Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Ind): Does my hon. my hon. Friend. Friend agree that the motion misses what we should be looking for, which is not whether teachers are qualified Pat Glass rose— or not, but whether they are good? Surely he must agree that many qualified teachers, for whatever reason, are Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. It simply not up to the job, and yet many teachers who are is very disruptive to have people shouting across the not qualified are absolutely brilliant. Should we not be Chamber, particularly from the Government Benches. getting to the root of the matter in getting those who Those Members may wish to be called in the debate, are great teachers teaching and those who are not out of and if this behaviour persists, they might find that we the profession? run out of time before they get called. Simon Wright: I agree that qualified status is not the Pat Glass: I want to finish by simply saying that end of the matter, but parents need to have confidence having a qualification does not make a great teacher, that their child is being taught by a teacher with suitable but it is a damn good place to start. qualifications. There are also important issues about professional development, which I will address later. 2.55 pm On-the-job training is crucial, as is an intellectual Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): Cynics evidence-based understanding of teaching methods. QTS might say that this debate has been put forward by demonstrates that a teacher has the skills, the qualities the Opposition to cause mischief, but I welcome the and the professional standards that make such a difference opportunity to promote my party’s policy on how to to their students’ education. That is why head teachers ensure there is freedom and fairness for all in our school value qualifications when they recruit, and why the system and to endorse the progress that has been made National Association of Head Teachers and the Association by the coalition. of School and College Leaders support the view that Liberal Democrats believe that all schoolchildren schools should employ qualified teachers. and their parents should receive a core guarantee of Of course, there are unqualified teachers who do a what they will get from a state-funded school education, really good job in the classroom. We would want to and that includes being taught by a qualified teacher or support them in gaining qualified teacher status, and someone who is en route to being qualified. We want to there are several routes through which that can be free schools and teachers so that they can do what they achieved, according to the needs of the individual. do best while ensuring that parents have the confidence Qualified teacher status is a reliable signalling device for of knowing that their children are taught by a teacher heads wanting to recruit the very best, and a guarantee suitably qualified for their vital job. Parents want and to students and parents that their teacher has the broad expect their children to be taught by good, qualified attributes needed to excel in the classroom. However, teachers and to be taught a core body of knowledge. It ensuring that all teachers in state-maintained schools is fair to parents and to children to expect state-funded are suitably qualified should not be the extent of our schools to meet those reasonable expectations. ambition. I have already mentioned our achievements I strongly support much of what the coalition has in coalition and the encouragement given to top graduates achieved in giving schools more freedoms. Teachers and to go into the teaching professions. There is also further schools are being freed up from micro-management and scope to explore how teachers can best be supported to daily guidance notes from Whitehall. The national develop at every stage of their career. curriculum is being slimmed down to enable teachers on We want innovation, creativity and diversity in the the front line—those who know best about their pupils’ classroom. Liberal Democrats also want minimum educational needs—to teach in the way that is most professional standards in our schools. It is vital that we effective for their class. The £2.5 billion pupil premium continue to free up teachers and schools and drive up has been introduced, and head teachers have the freedom standards for all. to use it in the way they know is best to raise the attainment of their students from disadvantaged Andrew Percy: Does the hon. Gentleman consider a backgrounds. The coalition has quadrupled the number teacher who has QTS and a postgraduate certificate in of Teach First graduates and increased bursary levels education to be better qualified than a teacher who has available to top graduates in subjects including chemistry, just QTS? There seems to be a bit of confusion about biology and computer science. what lies behind QTS. 965 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 966

Simon Wright: I would not say that PGCE is a average. I do not think that any school in the country necessity, despite the fact that I myself studied for it. I should be seeing fewer than 70% or 80% of its pupils think there are lots of routes to qualified teacher status, achieving that level. all of which have different advantages and merits, but, This year, I am pleased to say that results improved at crucially, it depends on the needs of the individual four of those schools, but what shocks me is the seeking that status. extraordinarily wide variation in achievement between On other forms of professional development, we schools with similar intakes. Children starting at two should consider options such as enabling all teachers to schools in Dudley had achieved exactly the same key build an individual professional portfolio, including the stage 2 results, yet five years later twice as many pupils accredited continuing professional development courses in one school achieved better GCSE results than the they undertake, to progress and support their career in other. the classroom. The recently announced champions league Just a few years ago, only a third of pupils at Ellowes proposal could get outstanding leaders into those schools Hall school managed to get successful grades; now, that need them most from next year. That could be more than eight out of 10 do so. It is without doubt the expanded in due course and applied to proven subject best state school in the black country. If we take into teachers looking for a new challenge. account the value it offers its students, it probably has a As I have said, the Liberal Democrats welcome the good claim to be one of the very best schools in the innovation, creativity and diversity that the Government country. It still has the same kids from the same families seek to introduce in the classroom, but we want minimum and largely the same teachers, but the thing that has professional standards in our schools, too. changed is that it has a brilliant new head teacher, Andy Griffiths, and there is a relentless focus on standards Mr Graham Stuart: Will the hon. Gentleman give and discipline. He has motivated the teachers and made way? the pupils believe in themselves. Results are finally improving at Castle High, my old Simon Wright: No, I am coming to the end of my school in the middle of Dudley, under a new head comments. teacher, Michelle King, and Dormston school, which I would have welcomed the opportunity to support suffered a catastrophic collapse in standards, now has a the amendment on the Order Paper. It would have given brilliant new head teacher, Ben Stitchman, who is turning the House the opportunity to acknowledge the fact— things around.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): My The amendment has not been selected, so the hon. hon. Friend is absolutely right that one of the best ways Gentleman cannot refer to it. of driving up standards in our state schools is to get quality leadership in place. Is that not one of the key Simon Wright: I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. aims in driving forward the improvements he has Given that I do not have the opportunity to refer to the mentioned? amendment, I will not take part in the Division. Ian Austin: My hon. Friend is right. What unites all of those schools and others where results are improving 3.1 pm is high-quality leadership. Being a great head teacher Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): The central point I comes from being a great teacher. They know all about want to make is that we as a country have to make managing behaviour and discipline. They know how to education our No. 1 priority. We need to drive up get the best out of pupils, and they set high aspirations results, enhance the status of the teaching profession, and demand high standards. I am concerned that, by recruit the brightest graduates, train them better and not insisting on the very highest standards for teaching, insist on higher standards. the Government could be weakening the national stock of educational leaders for the future. That is so important, The fact is that not enough young people are succeeding because the quality of teaching transforms opportunities in science, maths or technology, or going on to for the rest of pupils’ lives. According to the Sutton apprenticeships, particularly in high-tech industries. We Trust: are not sending enough young people to university and not enough young people from state schools are going “Bringing the lowest-performing 10% of teachers in the UK to the best universities. We have to be honest with up to the average would in five years bring the UK’s rank amongst OECD countries from 21st in Reading to as high as 7th, ourselves, however challenging it may be, that standards and from 22nd in Maths to as high as 12th. Over 10 years the UK and results in too many state schools are just not good would improve its position to as high as 3rd in Reading and 5th in enough. Maths.?” Britain is falling far behind other countries on basic My central point is that standards in too many schools numeracy and literacy. The OECD has just reported are not high enough, and I do not think it is possible to that, on basic skills, the UK is behind not just countries tackle that by insisting the teachers in state schools such as Finland, South Korea and Germany, but others should not have to have the very best qualifications. such as Estonia, Poland and Slovakia. Some areas in Britain are lagging even further behind. Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): I am listening Just two schools out of seven in north Dudley reached carefully to the hon. Gentleman, but what is his evidence last year’s national average with regard to five good base for suggesting that QTS teacher outcomes are GCSEs including English and maths. Six out of 10 across better than non-QTS teacher outcomes? I have not the borough as a whole failed to meet the national heard any evidence. 967 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 968

Ian Austin: My point is that standards are not high changes that he has made to our system. The education enough. We need to get the best graduates into teaching revolution that he has driven forward is truly astounding. and insist that they are trained as effectively as possible. He should be very proud of his achievements. We must insist on the very highest standards in the Students get one chance at education and every day classroom. counts. It is up to us to ensure that every one of those We should dramatically expand the work of Teach days is fruitful and productive. To do that, we need to First. We should agree as a country—every party, the provide an engaging and inspirational learning experience. Government, schools, universities, teachers and business—to For that, we need the best and the brightest to see set an ambition for Britain to produce the best-educated teaching as the career of choice. Teachers need to be young people in the world. We need a targeted approach dedicated, motivated and appropriately qualified. For based on the London challenge—which transformed the vast majority, that will include achieving qualified education in the capital—with tough targets, the best teacher status. However, as part of delivering an all-round heads and the brightest teachers for areas such as the inspirational education we should not exclude those black country that are lagging stubbornly behind. who do not have qualified teacher status. We should be much less obsessed with a pupil’s age The purpose of education is to impart knowledge; to and focus more on their ability. We should ask whether allow students to access the next level of learning; to pupils should be moving up each year, regardless of give individuals the opportunity to find their place in their attainment. We should massively expand Lord the world; and, I hope, to inspire people to have a Baker’s brilliant work and have a university technical lifelong thirst for learning and knowledge. college in every town. We should specialise more at 14 years of age in relation not just to technical and Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): The hon. engineering subjects such as those studied in UTCs, but Gentleman says that the purpose of education is to to straightforward, academic subjects, too. impart knowledge. Does he not think that the training that teachers get through QTS in how to impart knowledge, We have to be honest with ourselves and admit that the psychology behind learning and behaviour management the current system is not promoting social mobility. The is important in delivering that? Does he not think that it vast majority of senior jobs in professions such as the matters that every teacher can control a class and help law, the media, those in the City, the civil service and children to learn? That is what we are talking about even politics go to a tiny minority of people from the today. best private schools and Oxbridge. Sutton Trust research shows that just five public schools send more pupils to Stephen Metcalfe: Yes, those are important skills, but Oxbridge than 2,000 state schools—two thirds of the they are not the only skills that one needs to be able to entire state sector. impart knowledge. Ministers should look at the brilliant work on open We all have examples of inspirational teachers who access by Peter Lampl, who proposes opening up access have made a difference to our lives. Mine is my fourth-year to leading independent day schools so that kids from junior school teacher, Mrs Chapman, at Staples Road ordinary backgrounds can get into those brilliant schools. county primary. She was an inspiration and I am still in Sharing costs with parents would mean that the cost is touch with her. However, there are other inspirational less than the current cost of an average state school people who have shaped our lives, given us an alternative place. Those who say that we cannot afford to do such perspective, encouraged us to aim higher or showed us a a thing should consider that failure to tackle this world that we never knew existed. Those people have social mobility crisis will cost the UK economy up to something to offer to our education system. £140 billion a year by 2050, or 4% of GDP. We need an education revolution in our country. We Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): How would need tough targets to drive up standards in our schools the hon. Gentleman feel if he turned up at the airport and we need to transform the status of teaching. We and was told that they did not have a qualified pilot, but need to promote a new generation of brilliant head they had somebody who was passionate about flying teachers and we need more UTCs and greater specialisation. and was really quite good at it? We need radical new measures to open up opportunities that are currently only available to a few youngsters Stephen Metcalfe: Many of the teachers who do not to many more, not just because we should open up have qualified teacher status are the most outstanding access and opportunity as a matter of fairness or because teachers around. It is for schools, head teachers and that is the only way to create the new industries and new Ofsted—those who are in the know—to assess the jobs on which our future prosperity will depend, but individuals about whom we are talking. They should because people in places such as the black country are not be disqualified just because they do not have the as good as anyone and we should open up for them the relevant piece of paper. We exclude those people at our opportunities that people elsewhere have taken for granted peril. for decades. Do not get me wrong: QTS is an important and valuable qualification that most teachers should have 3.9 pm achieved or be striving for. We are trying to free schools from the burden of bureaucracy. As I said, the best Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) person to assess who is the right person to be teaching (Con): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling in their school and delivering an education that best me to speak in this important debate. It is hard to meets the local needs is the head teacher. We need to overestimate the importance of education to the individual move away from command and control from the centre. and to society. I am therefore grateful to my right hon. That should include the opportunity of involving excellent Friend the Secretary of State for Education for the teachers who do not have QTS. 969 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 970

Mr Graham Stuart: The right hon. Member for Kingston qualifications. A cursory glance at other school systems upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), the former shows where the priority lies in the most successful Labour Secretary of State for Education and Skills, said countries. The Governments in Finland, Hong Kong, recently: South Korea and Japan are raising the bar for professional “If you find someone who is a great musician but they can’t qualifications, not trying to remove it. spend three years getting the proper teaching qualifications, I The Government’s 2010 White Paper also looked think you should use them.” abroad for inspiration. It noted that South Korea recruits Does my hon. Friend agree? teacher trainees from the top 5% of school leavers and Finland from the top 10%. Importantly, those recruits Stephen Metcalfe: I agree 100%. We need to be open receive college or university based training and secure and transparent about who has what qualifications and qualifications before they become teachers. In April we must ensure that there is a rigorous and robust 2012, the Education Committee published “Great teachers: inspection regime, but the motion would exclude Stephen attracting, training and retaining the best”. It held a Hawking from even offering to teach a class. He would follow-up evidence session last month. The original not be allowed to teach a—[Interruption.] He would inquiry looked at evidence of existing good practice in not be allowed to teach because he would not have— the UK. The Committee found that [Interruption.] “the partnership between schools and universities was often the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. recipe for successful provision, with a balance of theoretical and We are going to have a bit of command and control practical training vital for any teacher”. here. The command from me is that Members are to In short, whether we look at international comparisons stop shouting across the Chamber when somebody is or at existing good practice in this country, it is accepted speaking. If they want to intervene, they should do so. that having highly trained teachers with professional The control is that if they persist in shouting, they will qualifications is the best way to ensure that there are not be called in this debate. high standards and the best possible education for children. That is what the evidence shows. Parents agree Stephen Metcalfe: I apologise for responding, Madam and are overwhelmingly opposed to the expansion in Deputy Speaker. the use of unqualified teachers in free schools and The motion would prevent Stephen Hawking from academies. offering himself as a teacher, unless he got QTS or said This is not a debate about the best way of tackling that he was studying for it. It would prevent Jessica teaching shortages. We should not be thinking about Ennis from teaching PE, Damien Hirst from teaching the quickest way to get new teaching staff in front of a art and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central classroom. We should be thinking about how we can get (Tristram Hunt) from teaching history.We should consider the best teachers and trainees into our schools. The all the people who might have something to offer our evidence from successful education models around the students, but who would be excluded unless they put world, parents, teaching unions, trainee teachers and themselves forward for QTS. I accept that experience the party colleagues of the Minister for Schools at and achievement in themselves do not make for a good conference is clear: improved outcomes in education teacher and that we must never compromise standards, and incentives for the best candidates to enter teaching but equally, experience and achievement do not make both come from having highly qualified teachers who somebody a bad teacher. are paid well and trusted more as professionals to do a We need excellent, well-qualified, dedicated, respected job that they are appropriately trained to do. The and inspirational teachers, but let us not exclude all Government’s support for the employment of unqualified those who are exactly that just because they have not teachers presents us with the opposite: less qualified acquired QTS. If we do, we will fail not only ourselves, people who are paid less to do a job for which they are but the very people on whom we should be focused: the not fully trained. I am certain that we should have students. qualified teachers in all state-funded schools.

3.15 pm Mr Rob Wilson: To be clear, is the hon. Gentleman Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): If the Liberal saying that non-QTS teachers are in some way inferior Democrats do not join us in the Division Lobby later to and get worse outcomes than QTS teachers? support their own policy, those who voted Lib Dem in 2010 will wonder why they did so, just as they did when Bill Esterson: That point has been made in a number the Lib Dems voted for the privatisation of Royal Mail of interventions and speeches, and the international and for the trebling of tuition fees. evidence that I have already quoted is extremely powerful. I will talk about the evidence that supports the use of Those countries with the highest standards and best qualified teachers. In his report for McKinsey in 2007, results have the highest qualified and best-trained teachers. Sir Michael Barber found that although the high-performing They take people from among the top-performing systems in Finland, Japan, Singapore and South Korea graduates, and put a premium on the quality of people had very different curricula, teaching methods and school coming into teaching. That is how to get the best structures, they all made the quality of teaching their teachers and best outcomes—sorry to use the jargon. first concern. Getting the right people into the profession Children do best by having the best teachers. and giving them the right training were the top two The Secretary of State makes great virtue of the fact priorities that Sir Michael proposed to improve education. that the link between great teachers and great results for It would be interesting to hear from the Secretary of children is unanswerable, but unfortunately that approach State how many of those jurisdictions actively encourage is undermined by having unqualified teachers. I am schools to employ teachers who have no teaching certain that we should have qualified teachers in all 971 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 972

[Bill Esterson] a high-quality curriculum to young people in my constituency, but why should any of them be restricted state-funded schools, which is exactly what the Liberal to a narrower pool of talent on the basis of dogma? Democrat conference voted for. If Lib Dem MPs agree I was recently contacted by a top academic from with their party on the importance of qualified teachers, Southampton university about its teacher training they have the chance to show their support. I am afraid programme. She noted that one of its graduates had that by sitting on his hands tonight, the Schools Minister been described as “phenomenal” by Ofsted just 10 days will not show the support for qualified teacher status after gaining NQT status. While important skills can be that his party voted for. taught and honed on teacher training programmes, When he gave evidence to the Education Committee, those programmes cannot fully replicate raw talent and the Schools Minister admitted that he was involved in a passion for teaching, which—among some—is evident the drafting of that motion, and told us that last year, in the classroom from the start. In other words, teachers both he and the Deputy Prime Minister voted for that. may become properly trained through on-the-job training It is clear, therefore, that every Lib Dem MP in this alone, and it seems unnecessary to make high-quality Parliament supports the principle of qualified teachers. candidates jump through arbitrary assessment hoops All they have to do to show that support is vote with and delays, when their skills are being tested and they Labour tonight and show the public what they believe can demonstrate them to the head teacher’s satisfaction in. Otherwise, it is just meaningless words. and secure better outcomes in exams at the end of the year. The university technical college that will open in 3.21 pm Salisbury in 2015 has developed a partnership with John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): I am grateful for the many local employers, such as defence industry employers, opportunity to contribute to this debate. I was the Army, and the university of Southampton. It will genuinely surprised to see the words of today’s motion, provide brilliant teaching opportunities for industry because this debate is based on the fact that fewer than experts on a part-time basis. Those specialist inputs, four in every 100 teachers do not have qualified status. which come from individuals who will not have all the If the purpose of the debate is to try to draw out teaching qualifications, must be valued in our education differences between the coalition parties, and sow the system. seeds of public concern that if free schools and academies expand—I sincerely hope they will—vast numbers of Richard Fuller: Is my hon. Friend concerned about state-educated children will be taught by unregulated, some of the terminology? We are using the phrase unqualified and unsuitable individuals, it will fail in “qualified”, when what we mean is that someone has a that objective. qualification. Those he is talking about are qualified, My view is that free schools and academies provide and we want them to educate our children, whether or freedoms for head teachers and leadership teams to not they have a particular qualification. employ individuals from a range of diverse backgrounds— perhaps for shorter periods or on an ad hoc basis to John Glen: My hon. Friend makes a characteristically suit the developmental needs of their pupils, or, where wise and perceptive point. We must think more broadly necessary, to extend the curriculum. It is right to trust about education and not be held back by dogma in our head teachers to appoint the staff they need locally, approach on who we allow in the classroom. We know and to take on experts from industry and those with that Ofsted exists and that there is real rigour in the varied skills who sometimes simply may not have oversight that we expect in terms of outcomes. I ticked the final box before qualifying. The fundamental fundamentally disagree with the premise and motives principle that teachers are more likely than politicians behind the motion. The Government have done a lot to to know their staff and what they need in their school is raise standards as well as the expectations of pupils and undoubtedly true. parents. That is about removing Whitehall interference, and demonstrating our trust in head teachers to employ Most importantly, academies and free schools will who they need in individual schools, which will have not be free from Government oversight, and the process different appetites and needs to suit their different local for becoming an academy or starting a free school is populations and employment opportunities. It is right rigorous—in my constituency, several applications have that we continue in that way, and I will vote against the been unsuccessful. If schools get through that rigorous motion this afternoon. process, Ofsted can come in at a few days’ notice, and Ebacc requirements will involve more and more scrutiny of outcomes. I fear that this debate is really about an 3.27 pm obsession with process and uniformity, and discomfort Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland with getting to the heart of education, which is about West) (Lab): It is the second time this year that I have inspiring young people and securing better outcomes risen to welcome an intervention from the Deputy for our children. Prime Minister. First, I welcomed his intervention on Salisbury has a wide range of excellent schools which child care ratios, and now I welcome his support of each have different requirements from their staff. We Labour’s position on teacher training. I admit that I are about to gain a university technical college that have a newfound appreciation of him. Alas, it may not specialises in science and engineering, and a free sixth last. Of course, that means the poor Schools Minister is form with a broader academic curriculum focused on in the unenviable position of defending the policy, but STEM subjects. We also have three sixth forms that he will be unable to defend it without being on the have converted to academies, two of which are nationally wrong side of his party leader—I think I have that the leading grammar schools. All five institutions will deliver right way around. 973 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 974

Even more baffling than the political acrobatics being train the number of teachers we need. Some universities performed by the Lib Dems is the fact that, in 2013, we are already considering closing courses or losing experienced are having a debate in Parliament about whether we staff. The Schools Minister was perhaps more concerned want the people who teach our children to be trained to with avoiding explaining his party’s flip-flopping last do so. Anyone who last week watched the last episode week, so I hope he can address the issue in his closing of “Educating Yorkshire” will, after drying their eyes as remarks today. I did, have been left in little doubt about the value of a I want to raise a final point as chair of the all-party great teacher, particularly when it comes to getting the parliamentary group on art, craft and design in education. best out of the children who face the greatest barriers to Despite the fact that the creative sector is a burgeoning learning. Seeing Mr Burton try everything he could to part of our economy and one of our fastest growing unlock the ability of Musharaf Asghar to complete his exports, just 358 initial teacher education places were English language oral exam—he eventually succeeded—was allocated for art and design teachers in this academic inspirational. Mr Burton was able to do that not because year, compared with just short of 600 places in 2009. he knows a lot about poetry, although I am sure he That is much fewer than for the vast majority of other does, but because he knows a lot about pedagogy. That subjects. is the thing about the best teachers: they know how to I have more to say, but time has run out, so I will teach the class in front of them—every individual child leave it there. or young person, with the myriad challenges they each face—rather than just the subject matter. 3.32 pm The Secretary of State is undoubtedly a man of great accomplishment with an impressive academic record Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): This debate is but, with respect, I would not want him teaching my about freedoms, and the wider context is that the Deputy children. That is nothing personal. If a Nobel prize Prime Minister has referred to teachers other than winner cannot manage behaviour in a class, and if they qualified teachers. The hon. Member for Beverley and cannot tailor their teaching to the strengths and weaknesses Holderness (Mr Stuart), the Chair of the Education of each person in their class, their presence is little Committee, who has left the Chamber, spoke of the better than giving a child a textbook and telling them to need for evidence. The Committee has received no go away and read it. Schools are not universities, and evidence in support of free schools or academies—it teachers are not lecturers. Schools and schoolteachers does not exist, although experts have been to see the must be there for every child, not just for the most Committee. That greater freedoms necessarily lead to academically gifted or self-motivated. improved performance is an ideological belief, but the evidence does not currently exist. I have always thought that teachers perhaps do not get enough training on supporting the one in five children The Secretary of State is relaxed about the freedom who have special educational needs, either through their to have unqualified teachers in classrooms, but other initial qualification or their continuous professional freedoms that have been extended to free schools and development. For the Education Secretary to argue that academies could have much more serious consequences. someone who has had no training is a suitable person to An internal audit investigation team at the Kings science unlock learning for those children is therefore academy has shown how far that can go. The school is incomprehensible to me. free to have unqualified teachers, but it is also free to appoint a principal with no real management or leadership Andrew Percy: Will the hon. Lady give way? experience, let alone qualifications. It is free to have unqualified teachers, but it is also free to access £460,000 Mrs Hodgson: I am sorry—I cannot because of time. to pay for temporary accommodation in a former independent school, of which the principal’s father was I refer the Secretary of State to Ofsted’s report on the a trustee. No wonder the school is happy about employing Al-Madinah school, which found that children with non-qualified teachers. The principal was also free to special educational needs and disabilities were particularly employ his mother, his sister and his father. I do not failed by the school, which did not identify them or know whether they teach, but they were employed provide tailored support, leaving them to struggle. without any interviews or applications being required. The Government’s position is not even consistent, Yes we should trust head teachers, but should we because they insist that some members of staff in trust them to that extent? Should we trust them to take academies and free schools need QTS—special educational on suppliers and contractors with no contracts and no needs co-ordinators. Perhaps the Under-Secretary of procurement process, to fabricate—that is a euphemism— State for Education, the hon. Member for Crewe and and make out false invoices? Should they be free to do Nantwich (Mr Timpson), who has responsibility for that? Should they be free to access £10 million of children—he is not in his place—snuck that one, in his Government funding to refurbish a derelict mill owned wisdom, past the Secretary of State when he was drawing by the vice-chairman of the Conservative party? It costs up the new SEN code of practice. I, for one, am pleased about £5 a square foot for warehousing in a mill in he did so. Bradford, but that property company, owned by the I wanted to raise a couple of other issues but time will vice-chairman of the Tory party, is getting £300,000 a probably run out. In a Westminster Hall debate last year for leasing that building for 20 years, after which week, I described in greater detail the deep concerns the building will revert to the property company. Should among universities, not least the university of Sunderland, head teachers be free to defraud the Department for about the impact that the roll-out of School Direct is Education and HMRC by false claims about pupil having on the future sustainability of teacher training numbers, about rent paid to a property company owned— courses. That is not just another financial hit on universities; surprise, surprise—by the vice-chairman of the Conservative it is a question of whether we will lose the capacity to party, and about tax payments? 975 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 976

[Mr David Ward] What next? Will we have unqualified surgeons, whose qualification to operate and take somebody’s appendix The issue is the culture that is in place. That principal out is a steady hand and good eyesight? What about was in a situation in which the normal rules do not firefighters? I have used a hosepipe, so I must be able to apply. We are told that there are mechanisms and checks put out fires—absolutely ridiculous. Is it not time that in place to deal with such problems, but when the the Secretary of State started putting children before chaotic and dysfunctional governance arrangements political dogma, and ensured that our children get the were highlighted, guess who was responsible for dealing education they deserve—an education delivered by properly with disciplinary action? We are told in a press release qualified professional teachers, rather than this nonsense, from the Department: which is causing so much damage to our education? “Any necessary disciplinary action is a matter for the school.” 3.39 pm I do not trust it to deal with the problems and sort them out. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I welcome you The main problem with this whole policy—I opposed to the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is the first academies under Labour and I oppose academies and time I have spoken since your elevation. free schools under this lot—is that the criteria for I congratulate all hon. Members who have participated success are not about raising educational attainment. in this interesting debate. We would have liked to have The criterion for the success of this policy is how many explored the technical and legal sides of qualified teacher academies and free schools there are. It is claimed that it status more, but time was limited, as it often is on these is a success because there are so many. So when an occasions. application is made, the due diligence that we would This is essentially a simple debate on a straightforward expect, and that we have a right to insist upon in terms motion concerning a proposition supported by the majority of public accountability, flies out of the window. of Members of this House, so it ought to pass. We have The Deputy Prime Minister is right: children have a been spared complication by not debating the coalition right to be taught by a qualified teacher. But there are Government’s position. However, for those interested in other rights. As taxpayers, we have a right to robust and the context, that position is still worth checking, if only rigorous due diligence before these schools are opened. for its comedy value. To the best of my knowledge, this This is not about freedom; it is about the privilege of is the first time in the history of the House of Commons being exempt from public accountability—these are that a Government have tabled a satirical amendment. I freedoms too far. will not go there, Madam Deputy Speaker, because you would rule me out of order if I did. What we have is Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): On the confirmation of what I said at the outset, namely that understanding that he will speak for two minutes, I call the Deputy Prime Minister and his colleagues believe Chris Williamson. that “all schools should employ teachers with Qualified Teacher Status”. 3.37 pm If they believe that, the motion should pass. Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): Children are Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con) rose— our most precious asset, and every child in the country deserves the right to be taught by a qualified teacher or Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con) rose— someone who is working towards qualified teacher status. Most people outside the House would be astonished Kevin Brennan: I will make a little progress first that that is not custom and practice already. Before the because of time, but I might take an intervention later. general election the Prime Minister and the Secretary of There are not many Liberal Democrat colleagues State, who is no longer in his place, talked about learning here, but I welcome those who have turned up. Being from the best educational systems around the world. I asked, as I understand they have been, not to support know that a week is a long time in politics, but this is the Opposition motion—one hon. Gentleman said he ridiculous. We have seen a complete volte-face by the was not going to support it—is not good for their Prime Minister and the Secretary of State. health. It must drive them to distraction to be asked to The Government’s record on education, particularly perform such feats of intellectual and political contortion their ideologically driven free school experiment, highlights of believing one thing and voting for another just to the Prime Minister’s political somersault on this issue. save the blushes of the Tory Secretary of State for The Ofsted report on the Al-Madinah school in Derby, Education. He is not in his place for the winding-up the city that I represent, was absolutely damning. It says speeches, despite taking half an hour of our time that the achievements of pupils were inadequate; the earlier on. quality of teaching was inadequate; the behaviour and The Secretary of State is happy to trash, on a daily safety of pupils were inadequate; and the leadership basis, the Liberal Democrats’ fundamental principles and management were inadequate. It says that the school and beliefs on education policy, yet they have to turn up is dysfunctional and has not been adequately monitored, to bail him out. There can be no more tortured example and: of that than the Minister for Schools himself, the right “Staff have been appointed to key roles for which they do not hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr Laws). [Interruption.] I have the qualifications and experience. For example, most of the welcome the compassion from Opposition Members. primary school teachers have not taught before…large numbers The week before last he came before this House and of unqualified staff desperately need better support and training. stoutly and enthusiastically defended the policy of allowing Arrangements for the training and professional development of non-qualified teachers to teach in our taxpayer-funded staff are woefully insufficient and uncoordinated.” schools. In fact, he spoke with such passion and conviction What a damning indictment of the free school experiment. that I understand from press reports that some of his 977 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 978

Conservative colleagues in the coalition actually believe Deep Space Nine”, which I am sure the House is aware he meant what he said—they took him at his word. He of, called Odo the Shape-Shifter, who can alter his is shaking his head, but I read it in a newspaper. shape according to circumstances—for example, by Then, the Minister’s right hon. Friend, the leader of appearing to be a human—until the end of the day, the Liberal Democrats, let it be known that he disagreed when he dissolves into a bucket in his natural gelatinous with his other right hon. Friend, the Deputy Prime form in order to rest, ready to emerge the following day Minister. I know they bear a striking resemblance to in whatever shape is deemed necessary by the circumstances. each other, but they must surely be two different people. I say to the Schools Minister: that might be okay for a When the Schools Minister heard what his leader had science fiction character, but extreme shape-shifting said, he had a slight problem. Did he, in fact, still agree does not constitute statesmanship. with himself on whether teachers should be qualified? It need not be like this. I told the Schools Minister Last week in Westminster Hall and in the Education last week that, having performed a careful textual exegesis Committee, we got an answer of sorts: he had agreed of the coalition agreement, I could find no reference—not with himself all along; when he came to the House he one reference anywhere in the document—to the Liberal was not telling us what he believed, but what his Tory Democrats agreeing to allow unqualified teachers in Secretary of State boss believed. Some months earlier, our schools. I wish more Liberal Democrat MPs were we were told, the Schools Minister had proposed a here for this. It is not in the coalition agreement. I have motion to the Liberal Democrat conference— some experience of dealing with Liberal Democrats in [Interruption.]—I welcome the Secretary of State back coalition, having helped to put together the Labour-Liberal to the debate, and I apologise for mentioning him in his Democrat coalition in the Welsh Assembly in 2000, absence—but when we checked this, it turned out he when I worked for Rhodri Morgan, and I can tell the had not proposed a motion at all, although he claimed House that the idea of their agreeing to something that he was involved in its drafting. was against their own strong beliefs and the professed I know that the Schools Minister is a very, very clever beliefs and policy of their own leader and which was man. He has a first-class degree from the university of not in the coalition agreement would have been unthinkable. Cambridge. It is, therefore, simply a mystery to me—and it must be a mystery to them too—how they were dragooned into Tristram Hunt: Double first. supporting this policy and into rejecting an amendment that would have put this right and put policy in line with Kevin Brennan: As my hon. Friend reminds me, and Liberal Democrat policy. The policy was not part of the as the Schools Minister insisted on reminding us in coalition agreement, but obviously the result of some Westminster Hall last week, he has a double first from backroom deal between the Schools Minister— the university of Cambridge. But what I had not realised until now was that having a double first meant he was The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws) indicated so clever he could hold two completely opposite beliefs dissent. in the same brain at the same time. [Laughter.] Kevin Brennan: Oh, the right hon. Gentleman is shaking Chris Skidmore rose— his head, so he is not responsible. We would like to Kevin Brennan: In a moment. I think the House is know who is. It is a bit of a mystery. Some mystery enjoying this bit, as the Secretary of State might say. character from the Liberal Democrats and the Education And he can do that without experiencing any of the Secretary did a deal to introduce a policy that was not consequent anxieties that mere mortals such as us would in the coalition agreement and which was against Liberal suffer in that turbulent and contradictory mental state. Democrat fundamental beliefs and principles. Why, then, did they agree, and will they now support our motion, Chris Skidmore: I believe that the hon. Member for which endorses their professed policy and does not Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt)also holds a breach the coalition agreement? If they do not, no double first-class degree. one—not least parents and teachers—will believe a The motion talks about word they say about education at the next general election. “working towards qualified teacher status”. Will the hon. Gentleman give a time frame? Is it one 3.49 pm year, two years, three years, 10 years? In other words, it The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): We have could mean non-qualified teachers still working in schools, had a fascinating debate today and, as I will show in a just as the 18,500 did under the Labour Government. moment, we have learned quite a lot about the inconsistencies in the Labour party’s position on these Kevin Brennan: We would have to clear up the matters. Let me first pay tribute to a number of the hon. Government’s mess and think about what the time Members who have spoken today, including the Chair frame should be, but without giving anyone the sack, we of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member would require all teachers to achieve QTS in a reasonable for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), the hon. time, and unlike this Government, we would negotiate Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass), and my and consult. hon. Friends the Members for South Basildon and East The Schools Minister can believe that teachers should Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) and for Bradford East not have to be qualified and profess that view in the (Mr Ward). I also want to pay tribute to my hon. Friend House of Commons with impressive conviction one the Member for Norwich South (Simon Wright), who week, and then believe that teachers should be qualified spoke today for the first time as the schools spokesman and say so with equal conviction the next week. It is a for the Liberal Democrats. He set out our position on remarkable, but not unique pathology, at least not in this matter clearly and effectively, and I agree with science fiction, because there is a creature in “Star Trek: everything he said. 979 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 980

[Mr David Laws] two different views in one’s mind at the same time and to double first-class intellects, perhaps the shadow Secretary We also heard a fantastic speech from the hon. Member of State will stand up at the Dispatch Box to explain for Dudley North (Ian Austin), who I have always why his party leader was saying to the trade union previously thought of as a Brownite. He morphed today into conference in September this year: something of a Blairite and for a moment, I thought, “Let’s be clear we are not going to have new free schools under almost into something of a Goveite, until my right hon. a Labour Government”? Friend the Secretary of State leaned over to tell me that He could not have been clearer—until the shadow Secretary to contemplate a voucher system to allow people to of State intervened just a matter of weeks later to say in move from the state sector to the private sector was too his statement to The Mail on Sunday, “Let’s have more”. radical even for him. While we are in this mood for honesty and transparency, Finally, to cap it all, we had a marvellous contribution let the Labour party have the guts to come to the from the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland Dispatch Box and explain its policy on free schools. West (Mrs Hodgson), who was so full of praise for the Suddenly, the Labour Front-Bench team has a fascination Deputy Prime Minister that, for a moment, I thought with discussing matters among themselves. What are she was going to make an application to join the Liberal they discussing? Is it the weather, or is it the position of Democrats. The offer is still open to her if she would the Labour party on free schools? We would all like to like to take that opportunity while there is still room on know whether the policy is one from Doncaster North our party’s Benches. Sadly, the excellent contributions or from Stoke-on-Trent Central—or as described in The from the Back Benches were not matched by those from Mail on Sunday. None of us know. the Opposition Front Bench, although I accept that the It is all very well for the shadow Schools Minister to shadow Schools Minister, the hon. Member for Cardiff mess around with his press cuttings, read through the West (Kevin Brennan), has one or two good jokes. coalition agreement late into the night and tease Ministers Through the contributions from our Back Benches about the responsibilities of government, but the Labour and from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, party cannot even agree with itself. The shadow Education we exposed some pretty substantial holes in Labour’s Secretary cannot even agree with himself! We cannot position. First, let me deal with today’s version of the get agreement even in one head. We then heard the West Lothian question, which was posed very effectively shadow Schools Minister having the gall to say that he by my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole was confused about these things and had to look through (Andrew Percy) and my right hon. Friend the Member the coalition agreement to discover what my party’s for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes). policy was, but why does he need to do that? Whatever They asked an interesting question at the beginning of happened to the research department in the Labour the debate, but they got no answer. That question, to party? which we have still not had an answer, was: why, if We have held our position on qualified teacher status Labour Members are so keen on qualified teacher status, for as long as this party has been around. We held a was the number of unqualified teachers thousands higher debate on it at our spring conference in March this year. when the Labour Government were in power than it is We put out a press release after the debate. It was no today? I have the figures here. In 2005, when Labour state secret; it said this in the headline: was in power, there were 18,800 unqualified teachers in “Every child should be taught by a qualified teacher.” state-maintained schools. That figure is now down to As I say, that was in a Lib Dem press release in March, 14,800. If Labour Members are so passionate about and it was reported in the Times Educational Supplement this, and if they want to join my party in its strong views in the same month. It was commented on by the on it, I think that they owe it to the House to answer the Department for Education itself, so what on earth was question put to them earlier. Why, if they are so keen on the shadow Schools Minister doing on that weekend of qualified teacher status, were there so many more the Liberal Democrat conference? [Interruption.] I know unqualified teachers when Labour was in power? he was not the schools spokesman for the Labour party I have a second question for Labour Members. Of at that time, but surely he was paying attention. Why is course the hon. Member for Cardiff West is able to have the Labour party so incompetent these days that it has some fun by pointing out the responsibilities that come to wait until October—eight months after our debate at with government and the need for compromises in conference and eight months after the publicity in the coalition. It is rather more difficult to explain how a press—before it comes to a realisation on these matters? party that is not in coalition seems incapable of having Labour is a totally incompetent and totally ineffective just one position on these matters. The second version Opposition. of the West Lothian question that we must ask today is the Stoke-on-Trent Central question. Even without the Chris Williamson: Will the Minister give way? pressures of coalition, the Labour Education spokesman, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Mr Laws: I will in a minute. Hunt), seems able to hold in his mind two completely The question for today should not be about the contradictory views, not only on qualified teacher status, recent position of the Liberal Democrats, which is important though that is, but on the whole issue of free entirely consistent and has not been kept a secret. I schools. Will he explain that? invite both the shadow Schools Minister and the shadow Only a few months ago, the hon. Gentleman was Education Secretary, who seem to need research support, saying that the entire free school programme was a to come to the Liberal Democrat conference free in the “vanity project for yummy mummies”. future. They can come in the autumn for next year’s A matter of only months later, there he was in The Mail debate. Then we will not have this shambolic embarrassment on Sunday saying, “Let us have more free schools”. for the Labour party suddenly discovering our policy When it comes to contradictions in policy, to holding eight months after we passed motions at our conference. 981 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 982

Simon Hughes: Will my right hon. Friend allow me? Cooper, Rosie Jackson, Glenda Cooper, rh Yvette James, Mrs Siân C. Mr Laws: I will give way briefly to my right hon. Corbyn, Jeremy Jamieson, Cathy Friend. Crausby, Mr David Jarvis, Dan Creagh, Mary Johnson, rh Alan Simon Hughes: Does my right hon. Friend not agree Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana that it is slightly surprising that a party that has twice Cruddas, Jon Jones, Graham been in coalition with us in Scotland and once in Wales Cryer, John Jones, Helen does not yet appear to understand—whatever the level Cunningham, Alex Jones, Mr Kevan Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Susan Elan of their degrees—that two parties in coalition have Cunningham, Sir Tony Jowell, rh Dame Tessa some things they agree on, but do not agree on other Curran, Margaret Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald things, which are independent policies? Dakin, Nic Keeley, Barbara Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz Mr Laws: As ever, my right hon. Friend is exactly Darling, rh Mr Alistair Khan, rh Sadiq right. Of course there have to be compromises on these David, Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David matters. Davidson, Mr Ian Lavery, Ian De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark Chris Williamson rose— Denham, rh Mr John Leslie, Chris Dobbin, Jim Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Mr Laws: I have only a minute left. Dobson, rh Frank Lewis, Mr Ivan The vast majority of state-funded schools in this Docherty, Thomas Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn country still require qualified teacher status. I have no Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Long, Naomi doubt that there are people on the Conservative Benches Doran, Mr Frank Love, Mr Andrew who would see that the logic of their policy means that Doughty, Stephen Lucas, Caroline Dowd, Jim Lucas, Ian this should be applied to all state-funded schools. They Doyle, Gemma Mactaggart, Fiona accept that there have to be compromises; they understand Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Mr Khalid that and they do not have difficulty with it. What we Dugher, Michael Mahmood, Shabana have found today is that the parties in coalition accept Durkan, Mark Malhotra, Seema their responsibilities and that the Labour party is completely Eagle, Ms Angela Mann, John incoherent, hiding behind this matter to cover up the Eagle, Maria Marsden, Mr Gordon embarrassment of its own lack of policies. We will not Edwards, Jonathan McCabe, Steve be blown off course. We will continue to deliver a better Elliott, Julie McCarthy, Kerry education system. We will work together closely in Ellman, Mrs Louise McClymont, Gregg Government as we have since May 2010, and we will go Engel, Natascha McDonagh, Siobhain on delivering the reformed and improved education Esterson, Bill McDonald, Andy system for which all of us on the Opposition Benches Evans, Chris McDonnell, John have been working since that date. Farrelly, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Alison Question put. Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Jim The House proceeded to a Division. Flello, Robert McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Flint, rh Caroline McKechin, Ann Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I ask Flynn, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Fovargue, Yvonne McKinnell, Catherine Lobby. Francis, Dr Hywel Meacher, rh Mr Michael Gardiner, Barry Mearns, Ian The House having divided: Ayes 229, Noes 263. Gilmore, Sheila Miliband, rh Edward Division No. 114] [4 pm Glass, Pat Miller, Andrew Glindon, Mrs Mary Mitchell, Austin AYES Godsiff, Mr Roger Morden, Jessica Goggins, rh Paul Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Abrahams, Debbie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Goodman, Helen Morris, Grahame M. Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Brennan, Kevin Greatrex, Tom (Easington) Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Brown, Lyn Griffith, Nia Mudie, Mr George Alexander, Heidi Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gwynne, Andrew Munn, Meg Ali, Rushanara Brown, Mr Russell Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Paul Anderson, Mr David Bryant, Chris Hamilton, Fabian Murray, Ian Austin, Ian Buck, Ms Karen Hancock, Mr Mike Nandy, Lisa Bailey, Mr Adrian Burden, Richard Hanson, rh Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Bain, Mr William Burnham, rh Andy Harris, Mr Tom Onwurah, Chi Balls, rh Ed Byrne, rh Mr Liam Healey, rh John Owen, Albert Banks, Gordon Campbell, Mr Alan Barron, rh Mr Kevin Campbell, Mr Ronnie Heyes, David Pearce, Teresa Beckett, rh Margaret Caton, Martin Hillier, Meg Perkins, Toby Begg, Dame Anne Champion, Sarah Hodge, rh Margaret Phillipson, Bridget Benn, rh Hilary Chapman, Jenny Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Pound, Stephen Benton, Mr Joe Clark, Katy Hoey, Kate Powell, Lucy Berger, Luciana Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hood, Mr Jim Qureshi, Yasmin Betts, Mr Clive Clwyd, rh Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Blackman-Woods, Roberta Coaker, Vernon Howarth, rh Mr George Reed, Mr Jamie Blenkinsop, Tom Coffey, Ann Hunt, Tristram Reed, Mr Steve Blomfield, Paul Connarty, Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw Reeves, Rachel 983 Qualified Teachers30 OCTOBER 2013 Qualified Teachers 984

Reynolds, Emma Stringer, Graham Gray, Mr James Miller, rh Maria Reynolds, Jonathan Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Grayling, rh Chris Mills, Nigel Riordan, Mrs Linda Tami, Mark Green, rh Damian Milton, Anne Ritchie, Ms Margaret Thomas, Mr Gareth Greening, rh Justine Mordaunt, Penny Robertson, John Thornberry, Emily Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Morgan, Nicky Rotheram, Steve Timms, rh Stephen Griffiths, Andrew Morris, Anne Marie Roy, Lindsay Trickett, Jon Hague, rh Mr William Morris, David Ruane, Chris Turner, Karl Hammond, Stephen Morris, James Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Twigg, Stephen Hancock, Matthew Mosley, Stephen Sarwar, Anas Umunna, Mr Chuka Hancock, Mr Mike Mowat, David Sawford, Andy Vaz, Valerie Hands, Greg Murray, Sheryll Seabeck, Alison Walley, Joan Harper, Mr Mark Neill, Robert Sharma, Mr Virendra Watts, Mr Dave Harrington, Richard Newmark, Mr Brooks Sheerman, Mr Barry Whitehead, Dr Alan Harris, Rebecca Newton, Sarah Sheridan, Jim Williamson, Chris Hart, Simon Nokes, Caroline Shuker, Gavin Wilson, Phil Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Nuttall, Mr David Skinner, Mr Dennis Wood, Mike Hayes, rh Mr John O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Heald, Oliver Offord, Dr Matthew Slaughter, Mr Andy Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Smith, rh Mr Andrew Heaton-Harris, Chris Ollerenshaw, Eric Wright, David Smith, Angela Hemming, John Opperman, Guy Wright, Mr Iain Smith, Nick Henderson, Gordon Osborne, rh Mr George Smith, Owen Tellers for the Ayes: Hendry, Charles Parish, Neil Spellar, rh Mr John Mr David Hamilton and Hinds, Damian Patel, Priti Straw, rh Mr Jack Julie Hilling Hoban, Mr Mark Pawsey, Mark Hollingbery, George Penrose, John NOES Hollobone, Mr Philip Percy, Andrew Holloway, Mr Adam Phillips, Stephen Afriyie, Adam Collins, Damian Hopkins, Kris Pickles, rh Mr Eric Aldous, Peter Colvile, Oliver Howarth, Sir Gerald Pincher, Christopher Amess, Mr David Cox, Mr Geoffrey Howell, John Poulter, Dr Daniel Andrew, Stuart Crouch, Tracey Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Prisk, Mr Mark Bacon, Mr Richard Davies, Glyn Jackson, Mr Stewart Raab, Mr Dominic Baldry, Sir Tony Davies, Philip James, Margot Randall, rh Sir John Baldwin, Harriett de Bois, Nick Javid, Sajid Reckless, Mark Barclay, Stephen Dinenage, Caroline Jenkin, Mr Bernard Redwood, rh Mr John Baron, Mr John Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Johnson, Joseph Rees-Mogg, Jacob Barwell, Gavin Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Jones, Andrew Reevell, Simon Bebb, Guto Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jones, rh Mr David Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bellingham, Mr Henry Dorries, Nadine Jones, Mr Marcus Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Benyon, Richard Doyle-Price, Jackie Kawczynski, Daniel Robertson, rh Hugh Beresford, Sir Paul Drax, Richard Kelly, Chris Robertson, Mr Laurence Berry, Jake Duddridge, James Kirby, Simon Rudd, Amber Bingham, Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Knight, rh Sir Greg Ruffley, Mr David Binley, Mr Brian Ellis, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Rutley, David Blackman, Bob Ellison, Jane Lancaster, Mark Sandys, Laura Blackwood, Nicola Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Scott, Mr Lee Blunt, Mr Crispin Eustice, George Latham, Pauline Selous, Andrew Boles, Nick Evans, Graham Lee, Dr Phillip Shannon, Jim Bone, Mr Peter Evans, Jonathan Leslie, Charlotte Shapps, rh Grant Bottomley, Sir Peter Evans, Mr Nigel Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sharma, Alok Bradley, Karen Evennett, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Shelbrooke, Alec Brady, Mr Graham Fabricant, Michael Lewis, Dr Julian Shepherd, Sir Richard Bray, Angie Fallon, rh Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Simmonds, Mark Brazier, Mr Julian Field, Mark Lilley, rh Mr Peter Simpson, David Bridgen, Andrew Fox,rhDrLiam Lopresti, Jack Simpson, Mr Keith Brine, Steve Francois, rh Mr Mark Lord, Jonathan Skidmore, Chris Brokenshire, James Freeman, George Loughton, Tim Smith, Miss Chloe Buckland, Mr Robert Freer, Mike Luff, Peter Smith, Henry Burley, Mr Aidan Fullbrook, Lorraine Lumley, Karen Smith, Julian Burns, rh Mr Simon Fuller, Richard Macleod, Mary Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Burrowes, Mr David Gale, Sir Roger Main, Mrs Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Burt, Alistair Garnier, Sir Edward Maude, rh Mr Francis Stephenson, Andrew Byles, Dan Garnier, Mark May, rh Mrs Theresa Stevenson, John Cairns, Alun Gauke, Mr David Maynard, Paul Stewart, Iain Cameron, rh Mr David Gibb, Mr Nick McCartney, Karl Stewart, Rory Carmichael, Neil Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl McCrea, Dr William Streeter, Mr Gary Carswell, Mr Douglas Glen, John McIntosh, Miss Anne Stride, Mel Cash, Mr William Goldsmith, Zac McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stuart, Mr Graham Chishti, Rehman Goodwill, Mr Robert McPartland, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Chope, Mr Christopher Gove, rh Michael McVey, Esther Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Clappison, Mr James Graham, Richard Menzies, Mark Swire, rh Mr Hugo Coffey, Dr Thérèse Grant, Mrs Helen Metcalfe, Stephen Syms, Mr Robert 985 Qualified Teachers 30 OCTOBER 2013 986

Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Wharton, James Probation Service Timpson, Mr Edward Wheeler, Heather Tomlinson, Justin White, Chris Tredinnick, David Whittingdale, Mr John 4.19 pm Truss, Elizabeth Wiggin, Bill Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I beg to move, Turner, Mr Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Williamson, Gavin That this House applauds the important role of the professional Uppal, Paul Wilson, Mr Rob Probation Service in keeping the public safe; recognises that more needs to be done to break the cycle of reoffending; notes that, Vaizey, Mr Edward Wollaston, Dr Sarah without parliamentary approval, the Government plans to abolish Wright, Jeremy Vara, Mr Shailesh local Probation Trusts, commission services from Whitehall, fragment Vickers, Martin Yeo, Mr Tim the supervision of offenders on the basis of their risk level, and Walker, Mr Charles Young, rh Sir George hand over supervision of 80 per cent of offenders to private Walker, Mr Robin Zahawi, Nadhim companies; deplores the fact that under the Government’s plans Wallace, Mr Ben Tellers for the Noes: supervision of dangerous, sexual and violent offenders may be Watkinson, Dame Angela Stephen Crabb and undertaken by inexperienced and unqualified staff and by companies Weatherley, Mike Mr Sam Gyimah without any track record in this area, without any piloting or independent evaluation, all of which is taking unnecessary risks with public safety; and calls on the Government to suspend the Question accordingly negatived. national roll-out of its plans until evidence is made public that its proposals to reduce re-offending do not put public safety at risk. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): On a point of It is great to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I understand that during Speaker. the Division, no Liberal Democrat Members of Parliament Our probation services work tirelessly below the radar voted against the motion—not even the Minister for with offenders in prison, with those released from prison Schools, who spoke from the Dispatch Box against it. Is and with those given community sentences, doing their that in breach of the “voice and vote” provisions of best to rehabilitate those people back into lawful life as “Erskine May”? good citizens in society. Probation, by and large, works, as 128 Members of Parliament agreed when they signed Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): As the early-day motion 622 last year, praising the probation hon. Gentleman is aware, the way in which individual service for its award-winning performance, including Members decide to use their right to vote is not a matter the former Minister with responsibility for probation, for the Chair. the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt), who I see in I now have to announce the result of the deferred his place. Division on the motion relating to the designation of The probation service might not work as well as we the UK Green Investment Bank. The Ayes were 290 would all like it to do and we need to do more to reduce and the Noes were 22, so the Question was agreed to. reoffending rates, which are still far too high. That is [The Division list is published at the end of today’s one reason why we support the Government’s moves to debates.] introduce supervision for those who receive a prison sentence of less than 12 months, and through the prison gate supervision as well. This debate is not about status quo versus change. This is about good, evidence-based, tested change versus ideologically driven, untested, reckless change. The Government know, as do we, that probation works because those supervised have lower reoffending rates than those not supervised. That is why they are extending supervision to those with sentences under 12 months. However, we do not believe that what the Government are proposing is the right way forward—abolishing local probation trusts, commissioning services directly from Whitehall, imposing a payment-by-results model on the system, and fragmenting supervision on the basis of risk levels. Implementing half-baked plans in a rushed manner is a gamble with public safety. If something goes terribly wrong or, God forbid, tragically wrong, public confidence in our criminal justice system is undermined. Ministers should not just take my word for it. According to the front page of The Guardian yesterday, in the past few weeks—[Interruption.] I hear the Lord Chancellor groaning because the chairs of Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Warwickshire probation trusts had the temerity to write to him and warn him that he should delay probation privatisation or risk deaths. I remind the House that he may have 12 months’ experience in his job; they have more than 12 years’ experience in theirs. I know who we trust in relation to probation. That is why we should be cautious about making changes to probation. Neither the probation 987 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 988

[Sadiq Khan] magnitude—[HON.MEMBERS: “Give way!”] Madam Deputy Speaker, you know that I am extremely generous in service nor the Opposition have anything against change, giving way to colleagues on both sides of the House. It but new ways of working should be tested first to see is just a shame that it took an Opposition day debate to what works and what does not work. drag the Justice Secretary here to discuss his plans, which we are quite keen to scrutinise. I will make some Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Following progress before giving way. the right hon. Gentleman’s argument, which I agree The Economist hit the nail on the head when it stated: with, does he not find it strange that the Government’s own internal risk register says that there is an 80% risk “If the work programme fails, the cost is higher unemployment; if rehabilitation of offenders fails, the cost is worse: more crime. that the Government’s plans will lead to an unacceptable Which is why those now-disregarded pilots were set up in the first drop in operational performance? Does he also find place.” it surprising that the Government will not allow us to As if that is not criticism enough, the article goes on to see it? refer to the Justice Secretary’s plans as “half-baked”. Sadiq Khan: Either the risk register says there is an 80% risk, which should alarm us, or we should be Mr Burrowes: I know that we have had a bit of alarmed at the Justice Secretary not publishing the risk political knockabout, but can we clarify what we agree register so that we can see for ourselves what the Ministry on? The right hon. Gentleman says that he is in favour of Justice’s own officials say. The MOJ agrees with us of change, but on the previous Government’s watch I that the proposal should be tested first. Pilots were set did not notice any change in the appalling reoffending up in the Wales, Staffordshire and West Midlands probation rate for short-sentence prisoners, which was some 60%. trusts. The MOJ’s press release from 25 January 2012 Does he not welcome the fact that short-sentence prisoners trumpeted, “World leading probation pilots announced” will now have statutory supervision for 12 months to and quoted the excellent then Minister, the hon. Member drive down reoffending for the benefit of local communities for Reigate, as saying: and, indeed, for offenders? “These ground-breaking pilots will for the first time test how Sadiq Khan: The hon. Gentleman has some audacity. real freedom to innovate, alongside strong public, private and voluntary sector partnerships, could drive significant reductions The Conservative party voted against the Offender in reoffending by those serving community sentences.” Management Act 2007, in which we tried to change The key word, of course, is “could”. This was a test—one how probation works. Which voting Lobby did he go could say a ground-breaking pilot—but what did the into? Was he with us? No, he was not, so I will take no current Justice Secretary do in the first week in his job, lectures from him on our plans to reform probation. just nine months later? He pulled the plug on the pilots, Jackie Doyle-Price: The right hon. Gentleman quoted opting for full national roll-out, declaring war on evidence rather selectively from the Public Accounts Committee in the process. As both judge and jury, he decided that report—I know because I am a member of the Committee. the plans will reduce reoffending, without bothering to One of the points we were keen to make was that we wait for any evidence. The headlines generated were, in were talking about people in a long-term relationship his view, worth the gamble with public safety. with providers. We had to take a very balanced decision Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Will on the success of the programme after two years of the right hon. Gentleman give way? engagement with people who had been unemployed for a long time and needed a lot of help. He should look at Sadiq Khan: I shall make some progress first. the Committee’s full conclusions, in which we said that The Justice Secretary seems to come out in a rash at the direction of travel was positive. the mere suggestion that he should pilot the plans. Back in January, when I challenged him on that, he put his Sadiq Khan: The hon. Lady is just wrong. I am happy gut before hard facts and evidence when he said: for her to go and get the report and quote what it says, “Sometimes we just have to believe something is right and do but I have a copy here and I have read it. I will refer to it it”.—[Official Report, 9 January 2013; Vol. 556, c. 318.] again in a few moments, so she can correct me again if That from the man who brought us the Work programme. she thinks I am wrong, but I know that I am right, He will forgive me if I do not base my opinions on what because I have the report here. we should do with a probation service employing thousands, supervising hundreds of thousands and serving millions Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Does on his hunch, because his hunch led to billions being my right hon. Friend share my concern that these spent on a Work programme that performed so badly changes will lead to increased cherry-picking by the that someone who was unemployed stood a better new companies and agencies, which will want to deal chance of being in work after six months if they had not with the offenders who are easiest to manage but will been on it. The Public Accounts Committee’s verdict on park on one side those whose cases are more complex the Work programme was that and who have multiple needs? “providers have seriously underperformed against their contracts Sadiq Khan: My hon. Friend has answered the last and their success rates are worse than Jobcentre Plus”. intervention. What happened with the Work programme Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): Will the right was that the big boys cherry-picked those who were hon. Gentleman give way? easy to get into work, and those who were not had more chance of succeeding with Jobcentre Plus. He is right to Sadiq Khan: Fast forward two years and the same remind the House that the probation service works with model has resurfaced in probation, but this time the people who have done poorly outside prison. They fallout from failure is of an altogether different might have problems with mental health, alcohol and 989 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 990 drug-dependency, or with numeracy and literacy. Those The probation service is currently meeting or exceeding are the people our professional probation service works its targets, so if we let it work in that area as well, it can with who will not be cherry-picked by the big boys that do equally well there. the Justice Secretary wants to give the contracts to. Sadiq Khan: One would have thought that because Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): the Justice Secretary is saying that we should extend My right hon. Friend has talked about the importance supervision to those who have received a sentence of of partnership working and its success lying in agencies less than 12 months, he accepts that probation works working together effectively. Does he agree that the and that the probation trust are doing a good job, but Government’s proposals go against the grain of everything no: he is abolishing the probation trusts and giving the we know and could not only create artificial divides big boys in the private sector responsibility for supervising between public and private providers but freeze out those offenders. His argument is illogical. voluntary sector providers who have great and important areas of expertise—for example, in working with women Ms Buck: I have met officers from the London probation offenders? trust who are most concerned about the arbitrary distinction Sadiq Khan: My hon. Friend has paraphrased what between serious and less serious offenders. They point the chief inspector of probation, the probation trusts out that particularly given the nature of people’s problems, and the National Council for Voluntary Organisations which my right hon. Friend outlined—perhaps mental have said, which I will come to shortly. health problems or drug and alcohol abuse—there is a fluidity between less serious and more serious offenders, Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Will the with people not easily defined as being in one category right hon. Gentleman give way? or the other. They fear that very serious offenders may fall through the cracks because of that arbitrary division. Sadiq Khan: I would like to make some progress first, if that is okay with the hon. Lady. Sadiq Khan: The last two interventions have shown Over the past few days, the Justice Secretary has that there is clearly more expertise among Opposition claimed that the pilots in Peterborough and Doncaster Members than Government Front Benchers. Our FOI prisons show that his plans work. If he is honest with questions uncovered that in London 29,813 offenders himself, he will know that that is nonsense. Those pilots will be given over to the likes of G4S and Serco. In are not only completely different from his plans for Surrey and Sussex, 7,313 offenders will now be supervised probation but are nowhere near to finishing, let alone by the experts that are G4S and Serco. being evaluated, although the interim results show that they are far from being a huge success. He should know Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op) rose— better. We must not let the Justice Secretary pull the wool Sadiq Khan: Let me make some progress, if that is over our eyes by saying that only low and medium-risk okay, and then I will give way. offenders will be in the hands of G4S, Serco and their My hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North ilk, as though only those caught stealing chocolate (Ms Buck) is right, because compounding this situation bars will be in their hands. Risk level is not directly is the unnatural carving up of responsibility for offenders related to the original crime committed. Offenders on the basis of risk. The public sector will keep the very rated low and medium-risk include those convicted of highest-risk offenders—the Justice Secretary clearly does domestic violence, burglary, robbery, violence against not trust G4S and Serco with them—and the private the person, sexual offences, and much more. I asked the sector will have the rest. He does not get it. Again, my Ministry of Justice how many offenders would be covered hon. Friend is right: risk is not static. In one in four by these ratings and how many would be transferred cases, risk levels fluctuate. Each time someone’s risk over. It could not tell me how many of the 260,000 level fluctuates, bureaucracy and paperwork is involved, offenders supervised by the probation service are high, but we cannot afford for this to be a slow or cumbersome medium or low risk. You could not make it up, Madam process, because when risk levels escalate, they tend to Deputy Speaker! However, the Freedom of Information do so rapidly. They might stop taking their medication Act 2000 is a wonderful thing. Using FOI, we have or a relationship might break down, leading to them uncovered that the number of medium and low-risk becoming, overnight, a danger to themselves and others, offenders who will be handed over to the likes of G4S so the process needs to be swift if the appropriate and Serco is 217,569. measures and support are to be put in place. Can we really see the police working as closely with Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Will my private companies as they do with probation trusts? right hon. Friend give way? Probation trusts often have on-site access to police Sadiq Khan: I will give way first to the hon. Member record computers, which are crucial in assessing, monitoring for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) and then to my and supervising offenders. Can we really see the police hon. Friend. giving private companies the same access? Who decides the risk? The Government claim that Caroline Lucas: That is very kind of the right hon. the decision will be taken by the new national probation Gentleman and I am grateful. He spoke about the service, but the Justice Secretary does not get it. The higher reoffending rates for those sentenced to less than national probation service will not have a day-to-day 12 months. Is not that an argument in favour of extending personal relationship with offenders, so how will it the good practice of the probation service in allowing it know? His plans will be clunky, cumbersome and prone to take over that area rather than contracting it out? to errors, with cases falling between two stools. 991 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 992

Gavin Shuker: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend community—for the first time ever—of people who for giving way. He makes the point brilliantly that the reoffend and have been sentenced for fewer than 12 months issue of low, medium and high risk is one not just of must be a huge step forward? fluctuation, but of staff retention and ability effectively to manage the case load. What will happen in the rumps Sadiq Khan: If the hon. Gentleman wants me to go of the probation services that will be left over—many of back to the beginning of my speech, I would be happy whose employees have performed excellently throughout— to do so—this is one of the problems when Members when they are dumped with the most difficult cases, day read a hand-out from the Whips—but I have already in, day out, for 10 or 12 hours a day? answered that question.

Sadiq Khan: We know what will happen: when those Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): Will the right hon. offenders cherry-picked by the private sector do better— Gentleman give way? which they will tend to do, because they will be easier to rehabilitate—the Justice Secretary will say that the public Sadiq Khan: I know that a lot of work has gone into sector is failing because the offenders who will be more the hand-outs, but let me make some progress. difficult to rehabilitate will not be doing as well. We Another concern is that the big multinationals will have seen that happen before. dominate, just as they did in the Work programme, because they are the only ones that have financial clout. Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Does it Smaller companies and charities will be used as bid not strike my right hon. Friend as a bit odd that a candy to sweeten the less palatable bids of the big Government so hellbent on apparently reducing corporations. People should not take my word for it; the bureaucracy have come up with a half-baked idea of deputy chief executive of the National Council for creating additional bureaucracy by fragmenting the system Voluntary Organisations, Ben Kernighan, has said that into two bodies? Does that not create uncertainty in “under its most significant public service reform so far, the Work grey areas in which some individuals may get lost in the Programme, many charities have found themselves squeezed out system? by large commercial providers. In the interests of helping ex-offenders who could benefit from charities’ expertise, the government must Sadiq Khan: That is what the Justice Secretary’s own ensure the mistakes of the Work Programme are not repeated.” risk register says, but he is not willing to publish it so Nothing has persuaded me that those mistakes will not that we can all see for ourselves that he is refusing to be repeated. follow his own Department’s advice. Our concerns do not end there. Another £600,000 a The idea that the national probation service and the year of the Ministry’s budget will go to companies that private companies will work anything like as closely have let us down before over electronic tagging, Olympic together under the new system as offender management security, prisoner transport and the Work programme. teams work is laughable. The chief inspector of probation Those companies will be beyond the scope of freedom has said: of information requests, which will do nothing to lessen “Any lack of contractual or operational clarity between the the chances of fraud or irregularities. public and private sector…will, in our view, lead to systemic We are also concerned about the length of the proposed failure and an increased risk to the public.” contracts. The Official Journal of the European Union The chief executive of Hertfordshire probation trust, document states that the contract lengths will be between Tessa Webb, has said: seven and 10 years, with an option to extend them to “We’re very concerned about separating offenders out between 13 years. The estimated value of each contract is between low and high risk. Things don’t work like that. We think there £5 billion and £20 billion. Imagine what great work the should be a coherent, single organisation.” public sector could do if it was awarded similarly long Do Members really think that G4S and Serco will contracts and such stability, rather than having a year- hold up their hands if something goes wrong? They did to-year, hand-to-mouth existence. not with electronic tagging or the transfer of prisoners. If anything goes wrong, who will get the blame? The Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): My right national probation service. There is no risk for the big hon. Friend will be aware that local charities in my private companies and no taking of responsibility—just constituency are doing good work with offenders. However, a nice little earner. those charities will not be able to bid for the contracts There is a risk, however, to the public. As has been because of their size and complexity. In the past few said, according to the press, the MOJ’s own risk register weeks, the large companies have tried to sign up the raises serious questions about the plans. We would charities as providers. Effectively, the large companies think that the Justice Secretary would want to reassure are becoming middlemen in the delivery of the service. the public by publishing the risk register, but he is refusing to do so, which in itself raises a number of Sadiq Khan: What my hon. Friend describes is a questions. repetition of what happened with the Work programme. Small companies, charities and voluntary groups are Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Can we just used by the big boys as bid candy to get the contracts agree that 600,000 crimes a year are committed by and are then elbowed out. We saw that with the Work people who have already broken the law and that that is programme and we will see it again in probation. of huge cost to all our constituents and costs taxpayers Do Members know who will be able to bid? G4S and about £10 billion? Does the shadow Secretary of Serco. The allegations against both companies are so State not agree that something must be done and that, serious that the Serious Fraud Office is investigating surely, statutory supervision and rehabilitation in the them, and yet the Justice Secretary is refusing to rule 993 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 994 them out of the bidding process. By the way, there is no hon. Friend aware of Pepper v. Hart, whereby what obligation for the staff of those companies to be trained Ministers say at the Dispatch Box counts as legal or experienced in this area. Those companies have no interpretation? At that Dispatch Box, I mentioned track record of providing such services. “trusts remaining public sector-based and delivering services at We are not confident in the ability of the MOJ to the local level, and with support from regional commissioners procure the contracts, given its poor track record. Last and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.”—[Official year, we had the scandal of court translators under this Report, 18 July 2007; Vol. 463, c. 353-4.] Government’s watch. The hon. Member for Thurrock Are the Government using the legislation in a false and (Jackie Doyle-Price) is busy reading her texts, but I will inappropriate way? read what the Public Accounts Committee, of which she is a member, said of that debacle. She can correct Sadiq Khan: I have read carefully in Hansard what my me at any stage. It stated: right hon. Friend, as well as the Under-Secretary of “The Ministry was not an intelligent customer…The Ministry State at the time, my hon. Friend the Member for failed to undertake proper due diligence…The result was total Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe), and Baroness Scotland chaos…the Ministry has only penalized the supplier a risible £2,200.” said in 2007. The Justice Secretary’s power was supposed There is no guarantee that the big private companies to be limited, with the Justice Secretary stepping in only will not run rings around the MOJ yet again. when a probation trust failed. It was not to be used to abolish all those probation trusts, and for him to be the Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I apologise sole commissioner, which is what he wants to do—and, to my right hon. Friend for being a little late for the by the way, using the Department’s own measure, none debate. Is not the picture that is unfolding of this of the trusts are failing. There is no justification for the Government that they are the friends of the private Justice Secretary to do what he is doing. sector who see the state as a golden calf that they can If the Justice Secretary, his Ministers or his Government milk when it suits them? This proposal is not in the said they were abolishing the whole existing probation public interest and it is not in the taxpayer’s interest. landscape to save money, there would be a sort of logic G4S wants to be considered, but it has some problems to it, but they cannot even say that. The MOJ made an in South Africa at the moment. impact assessment of the plans—do hon. Members know what it said? It said: Sadiq Khan: The question that our constituents are “The cost will be dependent on the outcome of competition”. asking is: why are the Government so keen to suck up to The Government cannot say how much the plans will the big and powerful? cost, let alone how much they will save. You could not make it up! Jackie Doyle-Price: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Where are the Liberal Democrats on this? To be fair, 24 Lib Dem MPs signed early-day motion 622, which Sadiq Khan: Let me make some progress. heaped praise on the work of the probation service just The Justice Secretary would like us to believe that the last year. Back in 2007, the Deputy Prime Minister companies will not be paid unless they deliver, as if wrote these words, which are worthy of repetition: payment by results means payment only by results. In “Few public services can be as readily overlooked as the fact, nearly the whole fee will be paid to the private probation service. For the last century probation officers have tirelessly and selflessly sought to help make our society safer and companies regardless of the results. Private companies to rehabilitate those who have been drawn towards crime. The are intent on squeezing the fraction of the payment that role they play is a vital one and it is important that politicians is dependent on results as close to zero as possible. The from across the party spectrum recognise this. As the second Government are so keen to suck up to the big companies century of the probation service begins it is crucial that the that they have caved in. So much for payment by results. unglamorous, painstaking yet hugely important work of the No doubt the Justice Secretary will claim that he is probation service is cherished, not undermined, by both Government doing only what the Offender Management Act 2007— and opposition parties.” which the Conservatives voted against—gave him power I say to those on the Liberal Democrat Benches that our to do. In fact, that Act established local probation motion is a modest one: read it, consider it, support it. trusts, empowering them to commission services locally If they fail to support our motion, they will be allowing from whom they see fit. It was not about abolishing the Secretary of State and his Government to go ahead local probation trusts or commissioning services directly with their risky plans. from Whitehall. In conclusion, changing our probation service to My right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn better rehabilitate offenders is not something that we, (Mr Hanson) was at the time the Minister responsible the profession, or experts are against. We must do all we for the legislation, and he knows exactly what it was for. can to reduce reoffending, by introducing new and [Interruption.] I can hear some chuntering but do not innovative ways of working that are tried and tested worry, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is not putting me off. before being rolled out. There should be no leaps into In 2007 my right hon. Friend said that the unknown, and no gambling with public safety with “there will also be a need for local probation trusts to act not just half-baked reckless plans. I hope colleagues from all as service deliverers but as commissioners of services from the sides of the House will support our motion. voluntary sector, or from others, providing a proper service to help prevent reoffending at local level.” 4.49 pm Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I feel a slight ownership The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice of this issue as I was the Minister who took the Bill (Chris Grayling): I beg to move an amendment, to leave through the House of Commons in 2007. Is my right out from “House” to the end of the Question and add: 995 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 996

[Chris Grayling] Toby Perkins: It is possible that the Secretary of State is right and that the experts whom he believes are wrong “applauds the work already carried out by probation trusts and are wrong. However, surely in the interests of democratic other agencies to turn offenders away from crime; and welcomes accountability, a radical change of the sort he proposes the Government’s proposals to build on that work to further should be debated properly in the House and the other reduce re-offending by extending support after release to offenders place. Why is he so frightened of proper scrutiny of his given short custodial sentences, introducing an unprecedented nationwide through-the-prison-gate resettlement service so that policies? offenders are given continuous support by one provider from custody into the community, harnessing the skills and experience Chris Grayling: I am not frightened, and I will talk of trained professionals and the innovation and versatility of about the legislative base later. I am not frightened to voluntary and private sector providers to support the rehabilitation debate—I am here today debating. We are doing the of low and medium risk offenders and creating a new National right thing. Probation Service that will work to protect the public and will directly manage those offenders who pose a high risk of serious Steve Brine: The figures that the Lord Chancellor harm to the public.” gives are shocking and, in many ways, a disgrace to our It is an enormous pleasure to be debating under your country. Is not one reason for the figures that there is no chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is great to through-the-gate system from custody to community? see you in the Chair. The amendment is in my name and The new resettlement prisons—I am glad that Her the names of the Prime Minister and our right hon. Majesty’s prison Winchester is part of the proposals—are Friends. part of putting that failed system right. The House has sat and listened for the past half hour Chris Grayling: We are trying to do the things that to a party that has absolutely no idea how to tackle experts have told us need to happen. They tell us that we what I believe to be Britain’s biggest crime problem. The need to support people through the gate and support Labour party did nothing about the problem in all of those who have sentences on the edge of 12 months. the 13 years it was in government. This Government will not repeat that record of failure. We are determined Sadiq Khan: We are not against that. to break the depressing merry-go-round of crime. In this country, we have a cycle of reoffending that has a Chris Grayling: The right hon. Gentleman says that dreadful impact on the lives of decent, hard-working he is not against that, but Labour Members have come members of society, and that creates needless numbers up with no suggestions whatever on how to achieve it, of victims in our communities. and did not do so in 13 years in government. This Government will make that difference. The reason is Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): Will the Secretary that that group of people—the ones who walk the of State give way? streets with £46 in their pocket—are being abandoned by the system. Many have deep-rooted problems, such Chris Grayling: I will make some progress before as drug, mental health and educational problems. We giving way to hon. Members. Let me get established currently expect them to change on their own. When we first. do nothing, they carry on reoffending, which means The reality is that crime in Britain is falling, which is more victims and more ruined lives. As my hon. Friend good. There are fewer first-time criminals, which is also the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) has good. However, increasingly, crime is committed by said, it also means a cost, as estimated by the National people who have offended previously, who are going Audit Office, of between £9.5 billion and £13 billion a around and around the system. Reoffending in Britain year. has barely changed in a decade—it rose again in the Richard Graham: Is my right hon. Friend as surprised past year. It is as high as it was five years ago when the as I am that the shadow Justice Secretary gave little trusts were formed and the reforms were introduced. recognition to the gravity of the problem; that, in his Just yesterday, we released statistics that paint a grim motion, there is nothing—not a single word—on how picture of reoffending in this country. More than 148,000 to reduce reoffending; and that the motion is simply a criminals convicted or cautioned in the past year had at negative approach to the Government’s proposals? least 15 previous convictions or cautions. More than 500,000 offenders had at least one previous conviction Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. or caution, including 95% of those given short sentences All the Opposition are doing is opposing. I hear no of less than 12 months. That group of offenders—prisoners suggestions, but we heard no suggestions from the who are released from short sentences of less than a Labour Government. We have heard from the right year—have long been neglected by the system. They are hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) on many occasions at the heart of what we want to achieve. in the past few months. On 17 July, he said: “But I also know that the status quo is not an option. Re-offending Steve Brine: Will the Lord Chancellor give way? rates are too high.” He has also said that we need to target specific groups, Chris Grayling: I will give way in a moment. such as those who receive short sentences, many of The overall reoffending rates of that group are shocking. whom are in the revolving door of reoffending. However, In the year to September 2011, nearly 60% of them we heard nothing about that in his speech to his party went on to commit a further crime. Nearly 85,000 conference this year, and there is nothing about it in the further crimes were committed by the group who walk motion. The truth is that he has no plan. out of prison with £46 in their pockets and get little or Worse than having no plan, the Opposition did nothing no support to get their lives back together and turn in government. They had the chance to tackle the away from crime. problem of support for short-sentence offenders when 997 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 998 they were in office. In 2003, they legislated for custody of serious recidivism model. Is the Minister aware of plus, a highly complex and bureaucratic system, but at concerns that that could lead to private companies least it was trying to address the problem. But in February wrongly assessing the most serious cases—those with 2006, the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), low risk of recidivism but high on the risk of harm, who was the Minister at the time, said: such as convicted murderers and rape offenders—and “We intend to introduce Custody Plus in the autumn of will he commit, in the interests of public safety, to 2006.”—[Official Report, 6 February 2006; Vol. 442, c. 934W.] proper piloting and external validation of any new tool Only five months later, the then Government said that before its implementation and before the creation of they would not now implement the new sentence of community rehabilitation companies? custody plus. In November 2007, the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) said: Chris Grayling: We intend to use the same systems “No decision has yet been taken as to when custody plus will across the public, private and voluntary sectors—that is be introduced.”—[Official Report, 21 November 2007; Vol. 467, enormously important—so that there will be no question c. 946W.] of people using different systems. It will be part of the In February 2010, just before the general election, Lord contracting structure that what the public national probation Barker said in the other place service, working with the most serious offenders, uses “Resource constraints have meant that we have been unable will also be used by contractors. thus far to implement custody plus and there is no prospect of doing so in the near future.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): 3 February 2010; Vol. 505, c. 17WS.] Does the Secretary of State agree that the Opposition They opted out of their plan to tackle the problem that have no right to lecture us on the criminal justice we are going to solve. They said that they could not do system, as they released tens of thousands of prisoners it, and it has been left to this Government to come up early, which undermined the public’s trust in the criminal with a plan that will deliver real change. justice system? Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): I was a Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Minister in that Department, and the Lord Chancellor Of course, what we hear is a party that has changed is wrong to say that nothing was done in our 13 years. completely. When Labour Members talk about the We created the probation trusts, in the face of great outsourcing agenda, they tend to forget that they were resistance from his party, which voted against the Bill. the people who drove the outsourcing agenda. They In the Government’s plans, the multi-agency protection were the people who said that prisons could and should agreements between the police, the probation service be run in the private sector. They were the people who and the criminal justice system will be kept in the public said that electronic monitoring could and should be run sector for the most serious offenders. Why will the rest in the private sector. Because of the volte-face that has go to the private sector when the risk register shows that taken Labour back to being an old-fashioned left-wing there is concern about those people who go from a low socialist party, they are now pretending that none of or medium risk to high risk? that happened, but I can assure them that it did. Chris Grayling: Let me address the issue of the risk register. The previous Government produced risk registers, Mr Burrowes: Is it not the case that the Opposition but they never published them. A risk register is an have a one-sided view of expertise? From my involvement internal working document designed to tell the team in the criminal justice system as a defence solicitor, I working on a project the steps that they need to take to know the expertise of probation officers. That needs to ensure that untoward things do not happen. One of the be shared and transferred, and they need to be able to things that we are doing in planning this project is, of bid for contracts, but we have to recognise that expertise course, aiming to deliver a transition that is as seamless is not just in the public sector—there is expertise in the as possible and protect the public. The difference this voluntary sector and the private sector. For example, is will make is to provide supervision for those people who anyone saying that St Giles Trust, which supports people are walking the streets and committing crimes, leading into work and housing, does not have expertise? Let us to more victims of crime today. That is what these have a balanced view about allowing more people to be reforms are all about. involved in the business of rehabilitation.

Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): If the Minister Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. is interested in providing a quality service, why have That is what we hope to achieve. This is not about probation trusts been forbidden to bid to run the new handing probation to big companies, but bringing in community rehabilitation companies? The trusts have the right expertise from the private, voluntary and the expertise. community sectors to reinforce the work of the public Chris Grayling: Our probation staff are not prohibited sector, and to bring new ideas and approaches to from bidding. We have teams of staff who are preparing rehabilitation. The great irony is that in the debate on mutual bids, some of which will, I hope, be successful. the Offender Management Act 2007, Labour Members They are receiving help from the Cabinet Office to do talked about the benefit of bringing together the skills so, and we are hoping to see members of our current of the public, private, voluntary and community sectors. team take this opportunity, win contracts, and go on to Because of the new, union dominated agenda they are make a real difference. pursuing, they have abandoned all that and are now saying that anything that involves anybody else is simply Caroline Lucas: The Government claim that private not good, and that is not good enough. providers will have the tools they need to assess offender risks, but the proposals refer to a new and untried risk Several hon. Members rose— 999 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1000

Chris Grayling: I will make some progress and then sector was supporting about 150,000 people. It was by take some interventions. far the biggest voluntary sector programme of its kind There has been talk about the categories of low and ever seen in this country, with organisations such as the medium risk, something the right hon. Member for Papworth Trust delivering the programme across large Tooting refers to regularly. The categories come from areas of the country and making a real difference. I pay the current system—it is how the current probation tribute to those charities. The story about bid candy is system works. We will build on that in the new system. simply not true. In the two years I was employment Minister, fewer than 10 of the 250 to 300 voluntary We will not do business with anyone who cannot sector organisations involved left the programme, and demonstrate the right expertise in preventing reoffending. all of them did so for reasons unconnected with the The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) made programme. So I am afraid he is plain wrong. the valid point that there are many good community and voluntary sector organisations doing excellent work Sadiq Khan indicated dissent. in this field. I want more of that work to be part of what we do in the probation sector. Chris Grayling: Well, I did the job. Richard Graham: What my right hon. Friend says Section 3 of the 2007 Act provides a clear and about the variety of organisations that have something unambiguous power for the Secretary of State to important to contribute on rehabilitation is surely something “make contractual or other arrangements with any other person we all recognise in our own constituencies. Will he for the making of the probation provision.” confirm for the record that there is nothing to prevent— On Second Reading, the then Home Secretary said: indeed, lots to encourage—the Gloucestershire and “The Secretary of State, not the probation boards, will be Wiltshire probation trusts getting together and bidding responsible for ensuring service provision by entering into contracts with a business for rehabilitation contracts? with the public, private or voluntary sectors. With that burden lifted, the public sector can play to its strengths while others play Chris Grayling: Not only that; we are encouraging to theirs.”—[Official Report, 11 December 2006; Vol. 454, c. 593.] our management teams from trusts. We cannot contract I could not have described our plans better. Furthermore, on a payment-by-results basis with ourselves, but the on Report, the hon. Member for Bradford South Cabinet Office is investing money to encourage and (Mr Sutcliffe) said: support teams of staff who want to take over the “Most services will be commissioned from lead providers at business, run it and be free to innovate. area level, which will sub-contract to a range of other providers.”— [Official Report, 28 February 2007; Vol. 457, c. 960.] Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): Again, that is very close to the plans before the House The Lord Chancellor is being generous in giving way. today. The shadow Justice Secretary must also know Let me make it clear that I believe there is valuable that in another place Baroness Scotland said that the expertise among the many charities that work with Act offenders on some of the problems he has raised—on “places the statutory duty with the Secretary of State, who then mental health, alcohol and drugs—but can he define commissions the majority of services through a lead provider”.— medium risk offenders? What offences is he talking [Official Report, House of Lords, 27 June 2007; Vol. 693, c. 639.] about? How does he deal with the point that was raised We have two options. Either the Opposition are not earlier about offenders who fluctuate between medium being upfront with the House about what they really risk and high risk? If there is a logic to keeping the intended to do in the 2007 Act, or they were so incompetent management of high risk offenders in the current system, they did not know what they were doing. The House what is the logic for those who fluctuate between the can choose which is most likely. two? Mr Hanson: The golden thread through the 2007 Act Chris Grayling: Let me answer that question specifically. was public sector management of all offenders—low First, the categorisations are existing categorisations—they and medium-level and serious offenders—supported by are not mine—and are part of a triage process within the commissioning of the type of services the Justice the existing probation system that we will continue to Secretary wants on health, mental health and alcohol use. Secondly, on moving people from one category to and drug treatment from the voluntary and private another, it will the responsibility of a national probation sector, but the public sector has to be responsible for trust to carry out risk assessments at the beginning, or managing offenders. later if circumstances change that require a new assessment to take place. The two organisations will be in part Chris Grayling: I repeat, from the 2007 Act: co-located, so it will not be a complicated bureaucratic “The Secretary of State may make contractual or other process—people will be sitting in the same office. The arrangements with any other person for the making of the national probation service will carry out assessments probation provision.” when they need to be carried out. I can explain this to That is clear, to my mind. It might not have been what the right hon. Gentleman separately and at much greater Labour intended, but it is what the power does, and it is length if he would like, but that is how it will work. the legal basis we are using for pushing ahead with these On voluntary sector organisations, we are making reforms. absolutely sure that smaller organisations have a place We will give providers the flexibility to do what works at the table. and free them from Whitehall bureaucracy, and the deal The shadow Justice Secretary’s comments about the is that they only get paid in full for real reductions in Work programme were complete nonsense. When I left reoffending, which is a good deal for victims and the the Department for Work and Pensions, the voluntary taxpayer. Despite what the shadow Justice Secretary 1001 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1002 says about the Work programme, it has now helped State has read out the relevant legislation; it is there in many hundreds of thousands of the long-term unemployed. black and white. The Peterborough pilot was introduced He talks about low-hanging fruit—these are people by Labour, and we understand that Labour Members who had been unable to find a job through Jobcentre are very proud of it. So what does my right hon. Friend Plus in over a year. think lies behind the outrage being expressed this afternoon The Opposition are missing one other important at our proposals to drive down the reoffending rates point. The shadow Justice Secretary talked about piloting, that are costing our constituents billions of pounds? but the pilot programme delivering clear improvements Chris Grayling: I can only think that it is because the in the level of reoffending that is closest to what I want Labour Government could not find a way to do that to achieve around the country is in Peterborough. It is themselves, or perhaps because Labour has reverted so far achieving very good results. It is impressive and I politically to where we all know it belongs and is now encourage Members in that area to visit. One cannot ideologically opposed to this kind of approach. It is a but feel that it is the right thing to do, but what the party that used to believe that outsourcing part of what Opposition have not admitted is that it was started by we did could make a difference, but it has clearly Labour. I know it does not want to admit it now, but it changed that view now. started us on this path, and it is a sign of how absurd it has become that it wants to walk us off this path today. It is worth mentioning the creation of resettlement prisons. If we are to deliver rehabilitation that prevents On the point about public protection, the national reoffending, it is really important that we have a proper public sector probation service we are establishing will, through-the-gates service. My hon. Friend the Member of course, be responsible for risk assessing all offenders for Winchester (Steve Brine) mentioned the prison in supervised in the community and will retain the Winchester, which will be one of the network of management of offenders who pose a high risk of 82 resettlement prisons in which people will, whenever serious harm to the public, who have committed the possible, spend the last few months of a longer sentence, more serious offences and who require multi-agency or the whole of a shorter one. Those prisons will supervision. That is right and proper. An hon. Member—I provide a proper through-the-gates service that will also cannot remember which one—made a point about the prevent reoffending. working day. I would rather the supervision of highest-risk offenders was in the hands of dedicated experts—and it We must remember why we are doing all this. The will continue to be—but having listened to people talk Opposition want us to wait for years before doing about inexperienced individuals and companies coming anything; they do not want us to take this approach. I in, I think it is worth pointing out that after these have a different view: I think that we cannot afford not reforms, it will be the same teams looking after low and to act now. Every day of every week, innocent people medium-risk offenders as are looking after them now. are the victims of crimes committed by offenders who Only over time will we see the work force evolve so that have just left prison without getting any supervision the expertise in the voluntary sector becomes part of whatever, and with wholly inadequate preparation for the mix, with former offenders who have turned their life back in society. Every day of every week, innocent lives around influencing young offenders and encouraging people are the victims of crimes committed by offenders them not to do it again. who could be turned away from a life of crime if only there were someone there to help them to do that. That Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): What is a scandalous situation, but there are ways for us to I cannot understand is how the transition between low, solve it. This should never have been allowed to happen medium and high risk will work. We all know that in the first place, but our reforms will change things for people’s circumstances can fluctuate in those situations. the better. If, as the Secretary of State said in response to my right Several hon. Members rose— hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), the changes are not particularly Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. dramatic, why are the Government pushing them through? Owing to the high demand for time to speak, I have had If, however, they are dramatic, there will be a disjoin. to impose a time limit on Back-Bench speeches of six How does the right hon. Gentleman propose to deal minutes. with that? 5.13 pm Chris Grayling: As I have said, it will be a simple process. The national probation service team will be Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): I, responsible for risk assessment. They will have a duty to too, would like to congratulate you on your election to carry out a new assessment when a person’s circumstances your new position, Madam Deputy Speaker. change, and it will be the duty of the provider to notify I do not criticise the Justice Secretary for wanting to the team of any material change of circumstances. They change, improve or reform our prison and probation will be co-located, and when an offender becomes a services. That is something that we should all want. high-risk offender, they will be taken back under the However, I absolutely reject his assertion that nothing supervision of the national probation service. This is happened during the 13 years of the Labour Government, about people sitting in the same office and working and I want to explain, drawing on my own experience, together, just as people work together in any office some of the things that did happen during that time. environment. Ten years ago, almost to the day, Lord Carter of Coles presented my right hon. Friend the Member for Steve Brine: We have ascertained that Labour accepts Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) the need to bring in other providers to deal with people and me with a report, “Managing Offenders, Reducing who are serving fewer than 12 months. The Secretary of Crime: a new Approach”. And it was a new approach. 1003 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1004

[Paul Goggins] 70 resettlement prisons. Well, I wish him well. If he succeeds in that, I will be the first to congratulate him, Three outcomes from that report were significant. The but he is setting himself an impossible target that could first was the creation of the National Offender Management produce tremendous dislocation within these important Service, which brought together prison and probation services. services in a way that had not been done before and I do not understand why the right hon. Gentleman is institutionalised the end-to-end management of offenders not prepared to trial and test the sort of approach he is in a way that has underpinned everything that has taking. We may disagree about the approach, but he happened since. More controversially, there was a clearer should at least trial and test it. How can he work out the separation between commissioning and providing services, balance between risk and reward when he has not tested and a greater emphasis on contestability—a belief that his own scheme? How can he know how much money to by bringing more players into the system, we could get offer as an up-front payment? How does he know how efficiencies and innovation. much to pay for the results? Even by his own lights, he is Some of that got me into hot water with some of my found wanting in his thinking. colleagues, and I make that clear now because I want My concerns and those of other hon. Members and the Justice Secretary to know that I am not afraid of probation officers are shared by police and crime bringing in competition or of private sector or third commissioners, and I know that the Justice Secretary sector players coming in to help to reduce reoffending. I has received representations from them. They criticise share many of the objectives of his transforming him for reducing the local partnerships that probation rehabilitation strategy. I am deeply concerned, however, trusts have been able to develop and they are critical of that what he is doing is not reforming the probation the fragmentation that will come from this flawed approach service, but destroying it. This is a Secretary of State to risk assessment. The probation service has evolved who wants both to nationalise and to privatise the much over the last 100 years, but this Secretary of State probation service at one and the same time. He wants to runs the risk of destroying it. end local probation trusts, but to create a new national probation service run out of Whitehall and to award 5.20 pm 21 new private sector contracts that will be drawn up and awarded by his Ministry of Justice. Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): I join others in congratulating you on your election to the position Why is it that successful and effective trusts such as that you now hold, Madam Deputy Speaker, and wish the Northumbria and Greater Manchester trusts will you all good fortune. I also congratulate the right not be allowed to bid for low and medium-risk offender hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul work? Why is it that Greater Manchester trust, which Goggins). This is not the first occasion on which I have has been commended from the Dispatch Box by the spoken immediately after him in a criminal justice debate. Justice Secretary on more than one occasion and has I have always found that what he has to say is full of introduced innovations such as the intensive alternative good sense, and that he thinks a great deal about it to custody, cannot be trusted to bid for and to run these beforehand. services? The only conclusion I can reach is that his motivation is ideological and not practical. Like the right hon. Gentleman, I have form. He has experience as—I believe—a Home Office and Northern Let me say something about the costs and the lack of Ireland criminal justice Minister, while I come to the transparency—my right hon. Friend the Member for debate armed, if that is the right expression, with some Tooting (Sadiq Khan) alluded to this—especially in experience as a Crown court recorder. I sat as a recorder respect of the new arrangements that the Justice Secretary from 1998 until 2010, when I was appointed a Law proposes for the supervision of offenders who get short Officer. Between 2005 and 2009, when I became shadow prison sentences. I support the Government in trying to Attorney-General, I was the shadow justice Minister introduce this innovation—I make no bones about that— dealing with prisons and probation. I like to think that, but let me be absolutely candid about custody plus. as a consequence of both those functions, I learnt quite Along with many of my right hon. and hon. Friends, I a bit about the way in which we run our probation and wanted custody plus and we legislated for it in the rehabilitation system. Criminal Justice Act 2003. The obstacle—the Secretary I would be dishonest if I did not accept that a number of State referred to it—was the cost. But at least I can of my constituents who work for the probation service put a price on what custody plus would have cost. Ten in Leicestershire are deeply concerned about what my years ago, it would have cost £194 million a year. right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor and his colleagues Interestingly, that was based on an estimate of 50,000 in the Ministry of Justice are proposing, but I happen to offenders who would have been in the system—precisely disagree with them because of what I learnt during my the same number as those in his impact assessment time as a recorder and as a shadow justice Minister. report. I can put a figure on it, but he cannot. All we are Having visited 65 of the 142 or 143 prisons and other told is that it will be paid for by the savings generated by custodial units in the country, and having also visited the competition for low and medium-risk offenders. any number of probation offices and staff throughout Frankly, I just do not believe it. Either that supervision England and Wales, I concluded that what we were will be inadequate or the existing provision will be doing extremely badly was looking after—and I mean weakened and reduced in quality. looking after—repeat offenders. We were quite good at I cannot understand the pace of change on which this dealing with long-term offenders who had been given Secretary of State seems hell-bent. Within one year five, six, seven or eight years or life sentences, but we from now, he will have to award contracts, appoint staff, were hopeless at dealing with those who had been given transfer cases, set up IT, sort out premises provision, sentences of under a year. Now, at last, my right hon. renegotiate or even end existing contracts and organise Friend is pushing forward—admittedly, not with everyone’s 1005 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1006 approval—a policy that will enable us to look after the argument between us. I am very pleased that the those people, and looking after them will mean that we Labour party has chosen the probation service as the look after the victims as well. topic for this Opposition day debate. May I also congratulate When I sat as a recorder, most of those whom I saw you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on your election to the were drug-addicted, mentally ill people in the dock, and post, and say how pleased I am to see you in your place? people who could not understand why they had become This is the right time to be debating this topic. I victims and, in many cases, repeat victims It was the believe that what the Government propose poses a real pathetic story of a carousel of failure, and by the time I risk to the general public, who are, after all, our constituents, had become shadow Attorney-General and, eventually, and also to the public purse. When the Secretary of Solicitor-General, I felt evangelical about it. I am not State for Justice was making the case for his proposals, suggesting that the Lord Chancellor is anything like a he did not say he thought they would save money. I saint—he and I have had our differences over all sorts strongly suspect that, if he gets his way, this will not of things—but at last he and I are on the same page, save money; indeed, I think it will cost more money. both of us wanting to do something practical about There is an overarching consideration in all this: the repeat offending. question of the delivery of public service. I urge caution. At Pentonville prison in London, most of the probation I believe the Government should proceed more cautiously work is entirely defensive. Those who go into the prison and in a more measured way. The criticisms of the will probably be there for less than six months, and Government’s proposals are widespread; there are many many are there for a matter of days or weeks. Most of people urging caution, although it is my understanding them cannot read, most are on drugs, most do not have that the Government intend just to press ahead. I a GP, and most do not have a fixed address. The main believe that the pace of change is too fast, and that the thing that the Prison Service and the probation service nature of the change—essentially to a payment-by-results can do in that place is keep them alive. After a few days contractor system for 70% of the total work load—is or weeks, they are spat out on to the street—and what too great to roll this out without first piloting the core do they do in order to feed their drug habit? They proposition. Payment by results is, in any event, an commit burglaries, they commit robberies, and they untested way of delivering probation and aftercare services become street drug dealers. and may well turn out not to be a suitable model for We cannot continue to permit that. While it is difficult delivering such services. The scope for abuse is obvious for my constituents who are members of the National and the nature of the safeguards the Government propose Association of Probation Officers and work extremely is not obvious. hard, and very well, in Leicestershire, to accept the structural changes that are required to achieve the Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): Talking improvements that are needed, and while I have great about payment by results, 70% of the people who come personal sympathy for them, I regret to say that we to Devon and Cornwall probation service with literacy must do something and do it quickly, because otherwise and numeracy issues end up with a qualification, whereas the situation will simply progress. What people who the national average is 20%. Those are the results currently have been given short and medium-term prison sentences being achieved by the probation service. need on release is a job, somewhere to stay, and a strong relationship. Ideally that strong relationship should be Mr Brown: Yes, those are the results. We are talking with a partner, but it could also be with someone who about what is, by and large, a well-run public service can supervise and assist them. They need to be caught, that does its job well. Quite some argument is required not at the gate but before the gate—before they leave to make the case in favour of taking the sort of risks prison. with it the Government are proposing in order to justify My good friend Jonathan Aitken said the most terrifying what is being done. and difficult thing for him when he was in prison was Not enough thought has been given to the distinctions worrying about what was going to happen to him when between high-risk, medium-risk and low-risk offenders. he left, and he was well-off, highly educated and had all The idea is that all the difficult cases are dealt with in the advantages of his class and education. Just imagine the public sector and those deemed to be low risk are what that must be like for a poor drug addict with dealt with by private contractors, which is quite dangerous. mental illness. They have a great big cliff to face as they These categorisations are not static. Even under the leave prison. Unless we have supervisors, whether in the present system, 24% of the case load changes categorisation charitable sector or the probation service, there to catch during the period of supervision. Payment by results by them and take them to a better life, we will just reinforce its very nature incentivises contractors to minimise the failure. difficult part of their work load, so there are some I commend my right hon. Friend, and I urge him and perverse economic incentives in the Government’s idea. his fellow Ministers to press on with this. Some unedifying It is also the case that categorisation can change very remarks will be directed at us by the Opposition, but I suddenly as a result of a significant single event. In say, “Just be strong.” We have got people to save here theory, this will result in transfers between public and and it takes courage: get on with it. private sectors inside what is, at the moment, a unified public service. The new arrangements will make this 5.25 pm more difficult, especially with economic incentives driving Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): the process. There is too much scope for dispute and It is a pleasure to follow the hon. and learned Member delay, thus endangering the public. In any event, the for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier). His compassion private sector contractors will have to be invigilated, for those who need our help does him credit. I have to with their claims checked to make sure that they are say I draw different conclusions, however, and that is true, and that will cost money.I suspect that the Government 1007 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1008

[Mr Nicholas Brown] get no help with rehabilitation at all. The result is a huge cost to society and to the economy. We need help for all are being unduly optimistic about this aspect of their ex-offenders to enable them to build their lives on proposals. Indeed, the Secretary of State is already release and not fall into the same traps that got them complaining about being overcharged for the electronic into trouble in the first place. That is why I welcome our tagging arrangements. current proposals to change the law to ensure that all I do not understand why the Government are trying offenders released from custody, regardless of their to do this to the probation service, which is a good sentence length, will receive at least 12 months of supervision public service. Feeling is particularly strong in the area I on licence. It is to be done by making probation cost- represent. A fortnight ago, I presented a petition signed effective, by extending the service to lower-risk offenders by more than 2,000 local citizens in defence of the on a payments-by-results basis. That additional help Northumbria probation trust, which is rated as exceptional. that offenders receive should, literally, pay for itself. Of the 35 probation areas, 31 are rated good and four I am a member of a Select Committee considering are rated exceptional. In 2011, the probation service prisoner voting, and I can tell hon. Members that when was awarded the British Quality Foundation gold medal it comes to the issues that will determine the amount of for excellence. reoffending, the right to vote, although that is an important The Government’s proposals will wreck all that, and human right, is way down the list. The important factors the claimed benefits are unproven. The Department’s are having somewhere to stay, meaningful work, training own risk assessment of the proposals, which was helpfully and education, supportive personal relationships, a mentor, leaked into the public domain, confirms that. The risk continuing health care and so on. Ex-offenders will now assessment codes a number of the key risks as black, have the opportunity to access such things through a which is the worst rating possible; apparently, there is structured programme of help. The private and voluntary an 80% chance of a drop in operational performance sectors as well as those who now work in probation and up to an 80% risk of failure of implementation. trusts can bid for the care of those low-risk offenders. Crucially, there is an 80% risk of the cost savings not Mr Kevan Jones: I do not disagree with the hon. Lady being met. Why on earth are we doing this if there is a about the excellent work done by many voluntary likelihood of the cost savings not being met? Why organisations, as I certainly have one such organisation would any rational person do this? The risks to the in my constituency. I am being told, however, that such public purse and to the safety of our constituents are organisations cannot bid for the contracts, as they will unacceptable. not take that financial risk, but, ironically, some of the I urge the Government to take a deep breath and to big private-sector companies are asking them to be on go back to the reasonable compromise proposal to pilot the sub-tender list. The idea being suggested is that such their ideas to test them against the evidence. In parallel, organisations will come forward, but that will not be the they could, if they wanted to, pilot the same ideas in a case. public setting and compare the two. Thirdly, it would be reasonable to have a pilot involving voluntary organisations Lorely Burt: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman was with a special expertise, where they may be able to listening very carefully when the Secretary of State enhance what is done in the context of a first-rate made his remarks on that point. I can only concur with public service. the Secretary of State’s comments—they worked for Taking a little longer and getting this right is surely me. the correct way to proceed, rather than rushing at it, The importance and value of probation officers in getting it all wrong and then coming back to the House protecting the public and helping offenders reintegrate saying, “We haven’t saved any money. It has actually into society should not be underestimated. We are clear cost more. Rather a lot has gone wrong and we are that we need to obtain the skills and expertise of probation asking the public sector to take over again and to clear professionals as we move into the new system, which is it all up.” That would be absolutely disastrous and there why we are establishing a national probation service. is no need to take the risk. There is no need to take the I want to address a phrase in Labour’s motion that is, risk with our constituents’ safety and no need to take I feel, misleading. It states that it is a the risk with the public purse. I urge the Government to “fact that under the Government’s plans supervision of dangerous, step back and to try to come to a more consensual way sexual and violent offenders may be undertaken by inexperienced forward. I would certainly play a part in that if they and unqualified staff and by companies without any track record were willing to do so. in this area”. I believe that the important factor is whether they are 5.32 pm “high risk”. The Justice Secretary has explained very clearly how the system would work. The established Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): The Liberal Democrats probation service will handle all high-risk ex-offenders want a rehabilitation revolution. We want to toughen and to imply that they would be entrusted to inexperienced up community sentences and make them a genuine and unqualified people is, in my view, scaremongering. alternative to custody, to embed restorative justice Let us have none of that. throughout the justice system and to open up rehabilitation services to a wider range of providers to ensure that the Natascha Engel: How does the hon. Lady account for most effective and innovative measures are available. the fact that although some individuals might be low-risk It is clear from the comments of hon. Members from or medium-risk offenders a fluctuating condition might both sides of the House that the justice system, as it mean that something happens in their lives—as she has stands at the moment, is not working. Nearly half of said, some of these people often live very chaotic lives—that offenders reoffend, but the figure for short-term prisoners means that they suddenly, overnight, become high risk? is even worse, at 60% and they are the ones who currently That is the situation that we are worried about. 1009 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1010

Lorely Burt: I am sure that the hon. Lady is right that medium-risk offenders—that is, the precise group most such people live chaotic and fluctuating lives and things likely to go on to commit further and serious offences. can change, but the Justice Secretary explained that the This will include the supervision of those convicted of people making the assessments would always be on the domestic violence, sex offenders and gang members— job and would be in the same room as the other people groups which require specialist knowledge and expertise. who would be involved. The National Association of Probation Officers, the There are some legitimate questions for the Minister. probation union, has estimated that nearly 70,000 of I have seen payment by results work well in job searching the 140,000 medium and low-risk cases that are bound and I know that there are good voluntary and private to be outsourced will be offenders convicted of violent organisations with skill and experience that could be or sexual offences. put to good use in rehabilitation. There are also private companies, however, that have failed spectacularly to Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): The handle work that has hitherto been carried out by the right hon. Gentleman is making an important point. public sector. Whenever the profit motive comes into Does he share my concern that there is a risk that those play, the desire will be to maximise profit and minimise private contractors will look at some of those people in risk and effort. How will the Government ensure that their mix and say, “These are a bit difficult. Let’s just private companies, in particular, do not simply come pass them back to the public sector and all the costs will along and pick the low-hanging fruit? How will we go back,” in order to meet their target? ensure that a very important Liberal Democrat principle is adhered to—[Laughter.] The right hon. and hon. Mr Llwyd: That is precisely what will happen. Once Gentlemen on the Opposition Benches are having a the profit motive comes in, common sense dictates that laugh, as they say, but a decision on this very important that will happen. principle was passed at the last Liberal Democrat Private companies will be handling extremely sensitive conference—[Interruption.] If hon. Members care to cases, many of which pose huge risks to the public, with listen, they will find out what we think is really important. little or no experience of assessing risk. We know that The principle that we would adhere to is that all ex-offenders that, too, is a movable feast. They will also be unable to should receive appropriate help, even when the risk of cope with the demands of managing offenders who reoffending is high. So how will that happen? And how need encouragement, support and patience—work which will the costs be factored? After all, many ex-offenders the probation service itself is doing very well at present. will leave prison never to reoffend, all on their own. Will The Ministry of Justice figures show that all 35 probation there be some form of incentive to encourage voluntary trusts are hitting all their targets with good or excellent sector or private providers to take on the hard cases—people performance levels. The reoffending rates for all adult with addictions, low educational attainment and poor offenders on probation supervision are the lowest they or even non-existent employment records? have been since 2007-08. In October 2011, as we know, the probation service was awarded the British Quality Richard Graham: Will the hon. Lady give way? Foundation gold medal for excellence. Reoffending by those who undergo supervision by Lorely Burt: I have taken two interventions. I am sorry. probation has been falling every year since 2000, and How we will ensure that everyone gets the help that two thirds of individuals managed by probation trusts they need to become a real stakeholder in Britain today? in the community do not go on to reoffend within a I look forward to the Minister’s answer. year. The service’s high-level performance is continuing. The Government want to fragment that. The highest 5.40 pm reoffending rates of 57% are of course found among Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): As a those offenders who undergo short-term prison member of the Justice Committee, I can tell the House sentences—that is, the group who have no current contact that we are still concerned about the Government’s with probation trusts. The Government have in the past proposals. We have not formed a view yet but we are ruled out the option of handing over responsibility for returning to the issue to look at the timing of these these individuals to probation trusts. changes, the structure, and crucially the contractual Probation trusts have made savings of 20% between arrangements. I understand that the Government intend 2008-09 and 2012-13, despite the fact that the probation to use the Offender Management Act 2007 as the prime budget has fallen by 19% in real terms over the same period. mechanism to abolish probation trusts and create new That all goes to show that it is trained and experienced community rehabilitation companies and the national probation workers who keep crime rates down and probation service, but I believe sincerely that the introduction protect the public from further harm, but the Justice of the transforming rehabilitation programme should Secretary seems to have little regard for any of that. be debated in full by both Houses of Parliament. This is These plans represent a victory of dogma over common far too important a matter to be rushed through without sense and are yet another example of the Tory mantra proper parliamentary scrutiny. that public is bad and private is always good, despite In March 2014, 35 probation trusts will disappear. G4S torturing people in South African prisons and, That will inevitably lead to job losses. Currently 18,000 along with others, skimming off millions of pounds of staff face uncertainty about their future. The impact on Government money. the public will be shocking; I hope I am wrong. After six months, the remaining 70% of the probation service Richard Graham: If I heard the right hon. Gentleman will be privatised and sold off to the cheapest bidder— correctly, he accused Government Members of being another race to the bottom. The Minister disagrees, anti-public sector. For those of us who have worked in obviously. Contractors who offer services for the lowest the public service for large chunks of our life, that is price will be responsible for supervising the low to deeply offensive. 1011 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1012

Mr Llwyd: I was actually referring to the Secretary of travel to the other side of the country, but he understands State. Whether the hon. Gentleman fancies himself in the importance of getting a job and having a secure that role is a matter for another day. financial base on which to rebuild his life. It is clear to The MOJ’s internal risk register was mentioned in an me that this debate is not about the arid structures that intervention on the right hon. Member for Tooting Opposition Members have talked about; it is about real (Sadiq Khan). Both NAPO and the Probation Chiefs people and, most importantly, outcomes. Association have expressed grave and well-thought-out The Secretary of State is right to point to the appalling concerns about public safety as a result of these plans. reoffending statistics for those serving sentences of less That is why the call for pilots makes every possible than 12 months. As he said, those with the highest sense. There is a real risk that communication gaps will reoffending rates seem to get the least rehabilitation occur, leading to delays and endangering the public. support. Resettlement prisons are clearly a key component The problems faced by offenders are frequently complex of the new landscape, but on the journey there are risks and probation staff have experience and training that of mixing potentially vulnerable young offenders and helps them know which services offenders should utilise older inmates. Will the Minister look closely at what the to meet their needs. Work done by the Prison Reform independent monitoring board has said about HMP Trust has shown that offenders are 12 times more likely Portland, where there has been serious evidence of to have spent time in care and 20 times more likely to self-harm and violence because of the inappropriate have been expelled from school than others in the mixing of populations? general population. Furthermore, two thirds have encountered problems with substance abuse and 72% have I urge hon. Members to look at the Prison Reform two or more mental health problems. But the Government’s Trust’s report, “Out for Good”, which is about what proposals will fragment the local partnership work in prisoners want in having a successful rehabilitation in which probation trusts currently play a vital role, including their communities. I declare an interest as a trustee, but youth to adult transitions, troubled family initiatives, it is a very worthwhile read. One of its key points, which women offender institutes and community safety I have not yet heard mentioned in the debate, is the partnerships. importance of stable financial support on release. By The staff are now being kept in the dark about how this I do not just mean the £46 that people take through individuals delivering probation services will be trained the gate, but their ability to have a bank account and to in future, as well as crucial details such as: the terms of access insurance. Many banks have carried out pilot voluntary redundancy schemes; what access, if any, will projects—Barclays has made more progress than most—and be granted to local government pension schemes, both the charity Unlock is doing its best to corral the financial for existing staff and new recruits; and information on services industry in this regard. However, I urge Ministers how their roles will change after the reforms have been to try a little harder. Without access to a bank account, introduced. In October members of NAPO, for only the which is now such an important part of daily life, or second time in its 101-year history, voted for direct adequate insurance, rehabilitation is made that much action, with more than 84% voting in support on a harder. 46% turnout. Members in all parts of the House have praised the The Government’s plans risk threatening the success voluntary sector and the charities that can all play such of the probation service and pose a danger to the an important role, but I have detected a slight discrepancy public. The MOJ knows that and has refused to publish whereby Opposition Members see them as being welcome the evidence to substantiate that stark fact. The common- participants but in a subsidiary role. I am happy to see sense answer—the elephant in the room—is of course them in a leading role, and I think they want to do far to extend the remit of the award-winning probation more. For example, the Clink Charity is a support service so that it can supervise offenders sentenced to group for about 1,000 different smaller charities that is less than 12 months in prison. The Government have actively trying to work with the Government to play a chosen not to do that on dogmatic grounds, and sooner role in this. I urge the Minister to look closely at its or later they will pay for it. recommendations about how we can involve those smaller charities fairly in the commissioning sector. It proposes Several hon. Members rose— that some of the up-front financial risk that they have to bear should be transferred to the upper-tier providers Mr Speaker: Order. The time limit will have to be of these services, perhaps allowing them to play a much reduced to five minutes in an attempt on my part to greater role. I would like the Minister to respond to the accommodate all remaining speakers. There is no guarantee point made by the hon. Member for Feltham and of that, but the chances are now better. Heston (Seema Malhotra), who is no longer in her place, who said that many small charities—Hibiscus 5.48 pm springs to mind—work with very small segments of the Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): offender population and might struggle to generate the Thank you, Mr Speaker. I shall do my best to encompass statistical justifications that, in the eyes of the larger all my thoughts within the requisite five minutes. providers, enable them to make a contribution. It was a pleasure not only to be asked to speak in this I recognise the concerns of many probation trust debate, but to meet a constituent last Saturday whose members about their professional future. Will the Minister grandson is sadly in the criminal justice system. He has say a little more about the benefits of mutuals? Will he just had to move to the other side of the country to confirm that any trust that is doing good work at the access the rehabilitation course he requires to get a moment, be it in Manchester or in Sussex—for both are meaningful job upon release. The consequence is that doing excellent work—can continue to do that work if he can no longer see his family, as they cannot afford to they transfer to a mutual status? That confirmation 1013 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1014 would be very welcome to those who work in such Richard Graham: Will the hon. Gentleman explain trusts. Thank you again, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity what has happened to reoffending rates over the past 10 to speak in this debate. or 15 years? Have they got better or worse, or have they stayed the same? If they have stayed the same, does he not agree that something needs to be done differently? 5.53 pm Secondly, does he not agree that the high rate of reoffending Mike Wood (Batley and Spen) (Lab): It is a pleasure by those with sentences of fewer than 12 months needs to follow the hon. Member for Blackpool North and to be tackled urgently? Cleveleys (Paul Maynard). I speak as a trained probation officer and as someone Mike Wood: The hon. Gentleman’s question has two who was perhaps least offended when the Secretary of parts and I think we have already answered it. The State talked about ideologues, as I think that ideology reoffending rates are static, but the bulk of the problem often gets a bad press. However, being ideological does lies in a group that is not yet the responsibility of any not remove from the Government the responsibility to organisation—certainly not of the probation service. provide protection for their citizens. These dramatic What I am suggesting is that if we want to provide changes within our criminal justice system place the support for that group of offenders, we should extend 120,000 men, women and children I represent in this the remit of the organisation that has proved that it has place, as everybody else represents their constituents, the expertise, skills and ability to make a difference. under threat, and we must therefore speak out against Instead, the Government intend to move to an untested them. system of payment by results that is unique throughout the criminal justice world and that will be inhabited by The stated aim of the Government’s plans—we have companies that have proved themselves to be not only heard this articulated several times—is to address their incompetent, but dishonest in the exercise of previous concern about reoffending levels. Recidivism should be contracts let to them by this Government. of concern to all of us, but up to this point neither the probation service nor anyone else has had any responsibility A problem has been identified, but the system that we for the vast majority of reoffenders. Nobody in this are producing will make things worse, not better. The House disagrees that petty criminals who leave prison Government are in a fix of their own making. They talk after serving short sentences need extra help and support, of a revolution in the way that offenders are managed. and we have already heard how that should be done: The hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt), who is no extend the remit of the probation service to cover such longer in her seat, said that the Liberals identified with people. Why abolish the probation service and privatise the idea of a revolution. However, we know that revolutions out of existence the successful group of people who have a tendency to eat up and destroy those who are have proved that they have the expertise to make a central to their genesis. difference to the lives of those people, and why exclude The Government want to place the supervision of them from the Government’s bidding process? It is thousands of potentially dangerous and unpredictable absolutely barmy. offenders in the hands of companies that have no track Anyone listening to this debate would not think that record in the field and that increase their profits consistently crime has been falling for the past 20 years under by employing poorly paid, untrained, temporary staff. Governments of both stripes. West Yorkshire probation If we add to that the privateer’s tendency to promote service deals with offenders in my area, where reoffending commercial confidentiality over partnership working, is down by 14% over the past five years. The situation is which has been central to the progress that has been in many ways better, not worse, than it has ever been. made over the past 20 years, we have a volatile and The probation service is leaner, fitter, better and more frightening prospect. focused than ever—certainly compared with when I Had the Secretary of State graced us with his presence worked as a probation officer—so we have the opportunity, until the end of the debate, I would have reminded him, should we wish, to extend support to people through a as has happened once already, of the statement that he proven organisation. made in this House on 9 January: “Sometimes we just have to believe something is right and do John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): South it”.—[Official Report, 9 January 2013; Vol. 556, c. 318.] Yorkshire, like west Yorkshire, has one of the best- That might be okay for the Secretary of State in his performing probation trusts anywhere in the country personal life, but he is charged with a responsibility to and it already works with people who are convicted and the public of this country and he needs to exercise it serve a term of fewer than 12 months. Is it not the case better. that all of the probation trusts have said they will do this extra work at no extra cost? The question for 6.1 pm Ministers, therefore, is: why on earth will they not back the probation trusts, which are already doing the job Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): It is a pleasure and doing it well in most cases? to follow the hon. Member for Batley and Spen (Mike Wood). Mike Wood: My right hon. Friend makes exactly the Earlier this afternoon, I had a chat with my father, right point, but we know that the reason why that will who was a justice of the peace for many years. When I not happen is ideological: this Government believe that told him that I would be speaking on behalf of the private is good and public is bad. We also know that Dorset probation service this afternoon, he said without they are not really convinced that these changes will any hesitation what huge respect he had for all the make any real difference to reoffending rates or save members of the probation service he had met in his money. many years as a JP. 1015 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1016

[Richard Drax] probation officer throughout. As a result of the split between the NPS and the CRC, probation officers are Dorset has 10 probation officers and a small concerned that that relationship could be affected, with administration group based in Weymouth. They handle serious consequences for both the offender and wider a case load of 350 offenders at any one time. The society. pressure is intense. When I visited the team, I was deeply impressed by their professionalism and dedication. John Healey: The hon. Gentleman is making a good They told me that they were concerned about some of speech and a strong point about which the Minister was the changes that the Government are proposing. It shaking his head. Is it not the case that one in four would be wise for us to listen. offenders in any one year moves between medium and I should emphasise that some of the changes are high-risk categories? They therefore risk yo-yoing between broadly welcomed by the probation team. They are the agencies, which must involve extra cost, extra pleased about the extension of statutory supervision to bureaucracy and extra risk to the public. those who are in custody for fewer than 12 months. We have heard about that proposal today. They also welcome Richard Drax: I hear the statistics from the right hon. the development of seamless through-the-gates resettlement Gentleman, and on my right, my hon. Friend the Member provision. However, the seamless resettlement service for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer), says that will work only if there is active engagement between the they are wrong. I was expressing the concerns of my probation officer and the offender for at least three constituents that there will inevitably be some potential months prior to release. Crucially, family ties have also confusion between the two organisations. I have been been shown to be vital to the successful reintegration of told by probation officers that what is vital and successful offenders into the community. at the moment is the fact that they can keep an eye on someone and there is no need to think, “What happens With the closure of Dorchester prison, which until if they go there? Who is going to deal with that? Will now has been the dedicated resettlement prison for they slip through the net?” Dorset, offenders and probation officers must meet at Exeter prison, which is some 90 minutes away. That The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice inevitably reduces the number of times they can meet (Jeremy Wright): It might help if I clarify the position at and the amount of useful time that they can spend this stage. In answer to the right hon. Member for together. Furthermore, it takes the offender further Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), I was shaking away from home and his or her support network. It also my head because when someone is categorised by the affects the probation officer’s ability to deal with the national probation service as moving from medium risk intense work load that they leave behind. to high risk, they will stay with that service. There will If those changes are due to cuts, as must be assumed, be no passing to and fro when that allocation process they are a false economy. Spending nearly four hours on has taken place. the road is not a good use of time or money. It also has a knock-on effect on the service and the courts. If the Richard Drax: I am most grateful to the Minister resettlement is truly to be seamless, we must ensure that although that still leaves a slight query about those Dorset probation officers can spend time with Dorset categorised as low risk. What happens if, as I mentioned prisoners in Dorset. I ask the Minister to look again at in my speech, someone moves from low risk to high the provision of a dedicated resettlement prison for risk? Dorset. There are also questions over the part-privatisation Jeremy Wright: The same. of the probation service that need to be answered. At the top of the list of concerns is the potential impact of Richard Drax: I am most grateful to the Minister for the split between the national probation service and the intervening. community rehabilitation company. The NPS will be My other concern is that probation officers are concerned publicly run and manage offenders with a high risk of about their careers because when they join they have, as harm, as we have heard. The CRC will be run by I understand it, a mixed portfolio—some offenders are commercial bodies and will manage those who have a low risk, some medium risk and some high risk. If the medium or low risk of harm through a series of probation officer is a member of the CRC, they will interventions and programmes. The problem is that inevitably end up with high-risk offenders all the time. I offenders do not usually remain low, medium or high am told that the pressures on those who look after those risk; many factors can mean that an offender moves offenders—who are potentially dangerous—is immense. from low risk to high risk, not least if they revert to a At the moment, because probation officers have a mixed drug or alcohol habit. portfolio, they welcome the fact that they do not have The new system would mean an offender being passed that continual assault on their time. I would be grateful from the CRC to the NPS, and potentially back again. if when he concludes, the Minister commented on career Will the Minister comment on the continuity of care prospects for those probation officers who will still be in under such a scenario? That issue matters because research the probation service run by the public sector. has shown that the relationship between an offender Finally, my probation officers would argue that we and their probation officer is crucial to whether—once should run the probation service for all offenders, rather released—they succeed on their licence or order. That than arbitrarily dividing them into high, low or medium continuity is so important that, as I understand it, a risk and artificially separating them. We heard earlier change of probation officer for an offender is investigated that three councils have asked the Government whether by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons, and every the proposals could be delayed for further consideration, effort is made to ensure that the prisoner keeps the same and I would be grateful if the Minister told the House 1017 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1018 whether that is being considered because of all the The probation service has a limited budget that has issues that have been raised, not least in the Chamber to stretch a long way, but it is performing. Every single this afternoon. service is ranked as good or outstanding. Its success is built on partnership working with local authorities, the 6.8 pm police, prisons and other services. Many people are worried about that partnership working. The probation Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): We all know that service operates as a seamless whole. As we split the when probation services do good work most people do service in two, the services will not have the partnership not find out about it. On the odd occasions when things aspect that is so important to its success. The Women’s go wrong, however, the entire world is made aware. Work programme in Derbyshire brings together all When I visited Derbyshire probation service I was blown women who have been in prison, regardless of their away by the commitment, imagination and bravery of sentence. That is exactly the kind of specialist work that our probation officers, and that is why they command will be under threat when the service is split in two. such respect across both this House and the country. These changes appear to be lacking in evidence base. The implementation of the integrated offender They fly in the face of all expert opinion and are so management programme involves collaboration with dangerously misguided that they are very worrying the police in working with offenders who are at a high indeed. risk of reoffending. That often means burglars, thieves and serial perpetrators of acquisitive crime, but not the The fact that my right hon. Friend the Member for people who are considered to be at a high risk of Tooting (Sadiq Khan) had to initiate this debate to causing harm—the sort of people about whom the allow the House to discuss these changes is a matter of entire community breathes a sigh of relief when they shame for the Government. That the other place had to are banged up. They are capable of creating a spike or a table an amendment to the Offender Rehabilitation Bill rut in local crime figures depending whether or not they to prevent the Government from making changes to the are inside. Those people—walking crime machines—are structure of the probation service until it was debated the sort who are likely to fall through the net because of by this House, and that the Justice Secretary failed to the changes being introduced. bring that Bill back to us, speaks volumes about his political cowardice and the lack of support that the The changes are dangerous and could create a huge reforms command. problem. The Secretary of State has said that his proposals are not about giving probation to big companies, but I The Secretary of State tells us that we should trust bet we will see the big companies getting all the services. him because he believes his proposals are right. His The idea that the voluntary sector will pick them up is a approach seems to be this: we have a problem—reoffending mirage. The Secretary of State is involved in a dangerous rates—and we need a policy; this is a policy, therefore it experiment and has a track record of failure. He should is right. He has not explained in any way why his stop listening to the voices in his head that are telling intention to extend services to offenders sentenced to him he is right. Instead, he should listen to the wide less than 12 months must coincide with the creation of body of opinion telling him that he is getting this a load of new companies and a privatisation. As my wrong, and protect our probation services now. right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting asked, why can we not have the extension of those services—it is already happening in some cases—within the realms of 6.13 pm the current successful probation service? Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): I have heard If the Secretary of State has confidence that wholesale empty rhetoric from Opposition Members before, but privatisation is right—it is privatisation not just of this afternoon it is particularly poor. The hon. Member probation provision, but of commissioning the services— for Batley and Spen (Mike Wood) tried to position the why did he not let the pilots run their course? Why debate as a public versus private one. The entirety of my cancel the pilots and then embark on the policy? If career before becoming an MP was in the public sector. that was because he has an unblemished track record The ethos of public service flows through my veins. We and a Midas touch, Opposition Members might be a are talking about having effective vehicles to deliver our little less nervous. However, as my right hon. Friend policy objectives. Whether delivery is public or private made clear, the Secretary of State was responsible for is not important; the important thing is that we achieve the shambolic Work programme, under which people the outcomes we intend. That is why the instinctive were better off if they were not on it. He was also the opposition to the proposals from Labour Members is man at the heart of defending the operation of the disappointing. As all hon. Members recognise, the rate work capability assessments when dead people were of reoffending remains stubbornly high, notwithstanding found to be fit to work. One would have hoped that, the efforts of Governments of all colours. Unless we with a track record like that, he would show a little show some imagination in tackling that, we will not win caution before ripping up a service on which so many the fight against crime and we will continue to fail people depend. people who are trapped in the cycle of reoffending. I My right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe welcome the initiative and imagination shown by the and Sale East (Paul Goggins) made a wonderful speech Government. As we have heard, the National Audit and asked why the time scale was so urgent. However, Office has estimated that the cost of crime committed he missed the point. The Secretary of State is clear that by offenders released from short prison sentences is up the Conservatives are on their way out and that he has to £10 billion. For the sake of those offenders, their to introduce his proposals before he is out of power, potential victims and the economy, we must not allow when he will not have the chance. He is rushing through that to continue. this ideological and dangerous move before he is thrown Let us focus on the outcome we are trying to achieve, out of office, as he so thoroughly deserves to be. not on the inputs or on maintaining a provider-led 1019 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1020

[Jackie Doyle-Price] effective when we all work in partnership. The “us and them”culture perpetuated by the Opposition does nothing system that is failing to deliver. I was most motivated to to improve outcomes for anyone, whether in jobs, tackling speak in this debate by hearing the comments of the reoffending or anything else. This stale thinking has had right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), who its day. We are in the 21st century, not the 20th. desperately tried to pray in aid the Public Accounts Police and crime commissioners will have a massive Committee to back up his position. The role of the PAC role in bringing together successful partnerships to bid is to assess proposals on the basis of value for money. It for contracts. I pay tribute to an imaginative approach is getting increasingly tiresome to hear it being prayed in my constituency, spearheaded by the police and in aid to attack Government policy, because that is not crime commissioner, working with the youth offending its role. We examine the effectiveness of the machine at team. The team had to find a new home. One of our delivering the policies. police stations had closed. The PCC brought together a The right hon. Gentleman was right to highlight the partnership between the council and the youth offending report by the PAC on contract management by the team, which enabled the re-opening of the police station, Ministry of Justice, and we never hold back on criticising with a front-facing desk, that also provided a secure poor contract management across the public sector. It is working environment for the team and its clients. That well known that Whitehall needs to learn a lot in that is a great example of partnership working and of how regard. One of the things that we did in our earlier police and crime commissioners can make a difference. report on the Work programme was praise the approach I commend what the Government are doing on this to that particular aspect of contract management, which agenda. was based on payment by results so that the private sector providers taking those contracts bore the risk. 6.19 pm That is a principle that needs to be read across government, Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): I am grateful to and it is an important principle for the proposals that you for calling me for the second time today, Mr Speaker, we are talking about. which I know is unusual. I bow to no one in my admiration for the Committee I recently had the privilege of visiting the Dudley Chairman, the right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret office of the Staffordshire and west midlands probation Hodge), and the way that she is extremely inventive at trust. I was impressed with its work. It is currently the spinning our reports to give maximum comfort to the third best in England and Wales at reducing reoffending. Labour party. It says a lot about the lack of talent on Of 53,216 ex-offenders in the entire region, just 6.9% the Opposition Front Bench that she is their most went on to reoffend, down 16% compared with 2007. effective weapon. Across all areas covered by West Midlands police, none As I have said, the risks will be borne by the providers. have reoffending rates above 10%. If they succeed in transforming the lives of people who That is excellent work, but it is not unusual. In July, are caught up in the cycle of reoffending, what is not to the Government’s own report assessed all probation like? If they succeed, people are freed from the cycle of trusts as being either good or exceptional. Despite that, reoffending. If they do not, they do not get paid. What the Justice Secretary has criticised reoffending rates for is wrong with that? prisoners serving less than 12 months, but the probation service will not be allowed to deal with those people. Mike Wood: I was delighted to hear about the nature Despite all the evidence that the probation service is of the blood flowing through the hon. Lady’s veins, but functioning well, the Government plan to hand 70% of could she address the question of the percentages in the its work to private companies. contracts? The latest figures suggest that private companies will get 90% of their money whether they succeed or I support using private and voluntary sector expertise not. and investment where it works, and I believe that the principles of competition and contestability drive up Jackie Doyle-Price: If that were the case, I would the quality of public services and can reduce costs, consider it exactly the kind of poor contract management but the Government are planning to invest in a that I have been talking about. The important point is completely untested payments-by-results model and do that we pay for results. Equally, we should reward those not have a clue if it will work. First, they have no companies that are helping the most difficult to assist. evidence that it will work in practice. Nowhere else in the world uses a payment-by-results model, and the Richard Graham: My hon. Friend is making some Justice Secretary cancelled pilot schemes in his first extremely good points, and I hope that the Opposition week on the job. are listening carefully. The hon. Member for Batley and Secondly, the Government have no clue how many Spen (Mike Wood) keeps referring to private contracts, low and medium-risk offenders will go to private companies. but the Lord Chancellor has confirmed twice today that This is key to the Government’s plans, but parliamentary probation trusts can bid for those contracts in conjunction questions have revealed they have no idea how many of with someone who can take the financial risk. Does she the 260,000 offenders handled by the probation service agree that the hon. Gentleman should stop slagging off are low, medium or high risk. We need to remember that the private sector? low risk does not mean no risk. Figures show that the majority of serious offences committed on probation Jackie Doyle-Price: My hon. Friend pre-empts my are committed by low and medium-risk offenders. Those next point. We have been talking about private versus are the basics and they should be absolutely clear. public, but it is not like that. We are not just talking Instead, the Government are intent on splitting the about the Sercos and the G4Ss. We want public servants probation service, and introducing bureaucracy and to come together and create mutuals. We are most delays that could lead to mistakes. 1021 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1022

Thirdly, the Government do not even know if the No one thinks there is a silver bullet that will stop scheme will save money. They are investing in a completely reoffending. If we think there is one answer, and that it unproven scheme, instead of tried and tested local is either in the private sector or the public sector, we will probation services. That is not good enough when the be looking for it for an awfully long time. As we all cost of failure is more criminals committing crime on recognise, everyone in the House wants to reduce our streets. That is exactly why chairs of probation reoffending rates as far as possible, protect society and trusts told the Government yesterday that the plans will turn criminals into law-abiding citizens, not just for lead to their own sake, but to save money for the public purse. “more preventable serious attacks and deaths”. The big question is: how do we do that? Most people, The truth is that the probation service should be certainly in the Opposition, believe that the public more integrated into the justice system, not less. The sector, in the form of the probation trusts, has demonstrated first way to do that is to ensure more cases are dealt an ability to innovate and make improvements. Certainly, with by the courts and, where community resolutions that is the case in Derbyshire, and we have heard from are used, probation officers should be involved. Community my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Toby resolutions are being used more and more extensively: Perkins). There has been some astonishing innovation the cases never go to court and the perpetrators do not and really fantastic improvements and results. come into contact with the probation service. I heard John Healey: And in South Yorkshire. about a case where an offender kidnapped his underage girlfriend at knifepoint and raped her repeatedly. He Natascha Engel: Yes, and in South Yorkshire. Obviously, assaulted the girl so severely that she miscarried. I cover a lot of South Yorkshire as well. Unbelievably, just four weeks before the attack he had How can we best cut reoffending? We can talk about been issued with a community resolution for underage private, public, a mixture of both, about the involvement sex with the same girl. In another case, the rape of of charities and so on, but our big concern, and the another underage girl was dealt with by community concern of the chairs of the probation trusts, including resolution, and in other cases robbery, domestic violence in Derbyshire, is that these reforms are being so hurried— and sexual assault were dealt with in the same way. they are to be implemented in one year—that the safety These people should be going to court and the probation of the public could be at risk. Opposition Members service should be working with them, because there is have talked about the amount of work, the staff and no other way of stopping criminals from offending again. buildings and everything that needs to be transferred, Secondly, probation offices and courts need to work and 12 months simply is not long enough, so will together at the local level. In Dudley, the Government Ministers please consider pausing and piloting these are threatening to close our criminal court, which is in changes properly? Why is that not possible? the same building as Dudley magistrates. Part of the What would we lose that is working well at the reason why Dudley has one of the best probation teams moment? With any dramatic change, there will be things in the country is that it too is based in the courts and lost that work well. We need to protect those services works closely with them and uses their local knowledge. that are working excellently, not throw them out with Thirdly, probation officers should work more closely the bathwater. with prisons. Investment in prisons without investment in rehabilitation is a false economy. There is normally a Richard Drax: I wish to raise another point that I small probation team based in each prison charged with have got wind of. I understand that two organisations co-ordinating the sentence planning and the programmes would be in the same location for two years, after which that a prisoner should be on, in conjunction with external the private or public organisations—whichever they probation officers, but I am told it is not permitted to are—could go their separate ways? I do not know if the run offender programmes, which are ultimately the best hon. Lady knows anything about that, but I would be way of reducing reoffending and rehabilitating offenders grateful to hear from the Minister about it. prior to release. I am told the team finds it almost impossible to work with prisoners in private prisons in Mr Speaker: Order. We are very short of time. Birmingham and Wolverhampton, because the companies Natascha Engel: I am going to finish on this point, that run them are paid to lock people up and have no Mr Speaker. I have a big concern about the organisations incentive to do anything that might ensure they do not equipped to bid for these contracts. We are talking commit crimes when they are released. about G4S and Serco, which are the very organisations The Government know that their plans are a gamble— being investigated over serious allegations of fraud in that is why they are trying to force them through their current MOJ contracts. Also, why are the probation quickly and quietly—but we cannot afford to gamble trusts—not the probation officers—which are providing with probation. The cost could be more criminals on such a good service, unable to bid for these contracts? our streets and more victims of crime. The probation That could be a big improvement. service is working—we have the evidence to prove it—and I shall finish now and donate my remaining three we should be investing in it, not selling it off. That is the minutes to the Minister so that he can answer the way to reduce reoffending still further. question from the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax). I do not understand how the distinction between 6.24 pm low, medium and high-risk offenders will work; I do not Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I will understand the co-location system; and I certainly do be brief, because I cannot disagree with anything already not understand how it will not be a disbenefit to someone said from the Opposition Benches. We have heard the who has just come out of prison to go from one expert opinion of people who really know what they are probation officer to another as he moves between from talking about. being a low or medium-risk offender to a high-risk 1023 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1024

[Natascha Engel] “significant anomaly in the billing practices” of Serco and G4S. That anomaly amounted to tens of offender. If the Minister could explain, I would be very millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money being mis-spent. grateful—and there we are: two and a half minutes Those practices have rightly been referred to the Serious donated to him. Fraud Office, and the Department has also arranged a Several hon. Members rose— further, more detailed, audit of the companies’ activities. The results of the SFO investigation are not expected Mr Speaker: Order. Shorter speeches will be necessary for several months, but I understand that those firms if everyone is to get in. It is up to colleagues to decide have not been ruled out of the bidding process, and that whether to help one another. the pre-qualification questionnaire deadline has been delayed to give them a chance to tender. 6.29 pm Finally, I understand that senior staff in the probation Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): Our probation trusts have been formally “reminded” that they have a service comprises 35 trusts, staffed by incredibly dedicated, duty to carry out the will of the Secretary of State. hard-working probation officers, all of whom are extremely Nevertheless, we learned this week that the chairs of the concerned about the Government’s proposals. The National probation trusts of Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Offender Management Service published a report in Warwickshire had written to the Secretary of State July this year that demonstrated that the quality of the warning of the dire consequences of rushing this reform service was either “good” or “exceptional” in every through. We need to listen to the people who know and single probation trust. I am proud to say that the understand the service best. Those experts say that facilities in Rotherham won an award for excellence. “performance is bound to be damaged and that public protection Reoffending rates are not the only criterion for measuring failures will inevitably increase”. the successes of the probation service. Victim feedback They go on to say that the current timetable was has been positive in 98% of cases. Targets for completions on domestic violence interventions, and for court report “unrealistic and unreasonable...with serious implications for service timeliness, have been exceeded, and completion targets delivery and therefore increases the risk to public”. were also met or exceeded on the vast majority of In summary, the probation service of 35 trusts ain’t probation programmes. Moreover, the service has managed broke, and the privatisation should not be going ahead. to achieve all this while making the considerable budgetary savings expected of it. Given that record, I find it 6.33 pm astonishing that the Secretary of State is planning to scrap the trusts in a few months and to replace them with an John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Forget entirely different system, most of which will be run by my speech; I just want to make a couple of points so the private sector. In an echo of the disastrous Work that other Members can get in. I am the secretary of the programme, the Secretary of State intends to impose an justice unions parliamentary group, and the right hon. untried, untested payment-by-results model on the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) is its probation service. These reforms are flawed, rushed and chair. Over the past eight years, that group has enabled ill-conceived. us to work with probation officers, prison officers and I want to focus on three issues. First, the proposals police officers, as well as members of the Public and will allow cherry-picking by the private sector and will Commercial Services Union, to gain some understanding lead to a downgrading of the quality of support that of what is happening in the service. To be frank, I did medium and low-risk offenders get. As the National not vote for the previous Government’s legislation. I Audit Office has put it, the proposals know that the intention was not for it to be used to roll “could encourage providers to concentrate their efforts on the out privatisation in this way, but I was worried that it offenders least likely to reoffend and prevent them from working would be. with the most prolific offenders”. I went to a lecture at the weekend by Angela Davis, Part of the success of the probation service in reducing the 1960s radical who is now a university professor. She reoffending has been its use of more targeted interventions. has done research into what is called in America the A good example is how interventions for women are “prison industrial complex”, in which every prisoner handled. These work well because they are small, local under supervision is a profitable asset—someone that and holistic; they look at each woman as an individual people can make a profit out of. I fear that that is where with her own problems and needs, rather than as just we are now going with this roll-out of privatisation. As another offender. Under the proposals, this type of others have said, we are talking about a 70% privatisation niche service is likely to be lost altogether as the links of this probation service, which is so successful at between large, prime contractors and smaller local providers present and was about to welcome the roll-out of either break down over time or do not emerge at all. management of offenders with less than 12-month sentences Crucially, those tailored services are simply more expensive. and was rising to the challenge. The proposed changes mean that it will become the We have looked at how privatisation of the justice probation provider, rather than the court, that decides system has worked. Perhaps we should reflect on Oakwood the activities the offender should undertake. Through prison, where a report last week told us it was easier to commercial necessity, providers are likely to prioritise get drugs than a bar of soap. Privatised companies have the cheapest solution, rather than the best. made profits in prisons by reducing wages by 23%. That Secondly, let me turn to the issue of exactly what sort is the prospect held out to probation officers—professionals of company might tender to run the new community who are committed and dedicated to their task. If these rehabilitation companies. In July this year, the Secretary people are saying—they are front-line staff who know of State announced that internal findings in his Department their job—that the public will be put at risk, for God’s had revealed a sake let us start listening to them. 1025 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1026

Finally, let me send out this warning to Ministers. We under his stewardship. The outsourcing of translation have heard so much advice about the risk posed by this cases resulted in whole cases being abandoned at huge privatisation to my constituents and members of my cost to the Court Service and putting at risk the liberty community, so if Ministers go ahead irresponsibly without of individual citizens. The Ministry of Justice was repeatedly heeding those warnings, they will be held responsible warned that ALS—Applied Language Solutions—was for every member of the public who is harmed, hurt or incapable of delivering a contract of that size, but those murdered as a result of these ill-thought-out reforms. warnings were ignored. Although Her Majesty’s Courts This is a warning from me: if any of my constituents are and Tribunals Service forbade front-line staff to talk to harmed, I will hold Ministers responsible and I will seek talk to the Justice Committee, the Committee’s investigation to ensure that none of them ever holds public office resulted in a declaration that the privatisation was not again. sustainable, even after the intervention of ALS’s parent company, Capita. The electronic-tagging debacle has 6.36 pm now required the intervention of the Serious Fraud Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): I shall keep my Office, yet G4S and Serco, which won those contracts, remarks short, as most of what I wanted to say has been have not been banned from entering bids to run probation covered in the debate. I have no problem with a private- services. public partnership or with businesses coming into The problems do not stop there, however. The damning partnership, although there has been criticism on both report of the private, G4S-run HMP Oakwood by Her sides of the House when Government Departments do Majesty’s chief inspector of prisons demonstrates the not follow business models. We can learn some things great dangers of putting private profit above prisoner from the private sector, but when 35 probation trusts— rehabilitation. Oakwood is an institution in which inmates deemed good or, in some cases, excellent in a National have died because defibrillators were locked away, and Audit Office report of July 2012—have won awards for where levels of violence and victimisation are high. The the level of service they provide, what good can come Minister has called Oakwood from this change? “an excellent model for the future of the Prison Service.”—[Official I shall focus my comments on short-term sentences. Report, 5 February 2013; Vol. 558, c. 114.] Before this debate, I did some research and wrote an Well, we saw a snapshot of that future this week in the article about such sentences. I learned that 60% of form of the sickening images from G4S-run Mangaung people with short-term sentences who are not given a prison in South Africa—yet G4S will be able to bid to probation order are likely to reoffend within a year, manage the rehabilitation, in our communities, of the while 20% will reoffend within three to four years. What very sex offender prisoners whom it did nothing to does that say? It says that probation is pivotal to stopping rehabilitate in Oakwood prison. reoffending. There is an organisation that has been banned from As my hon. Friend the Member for North East bidding for these franchises, despite being superbly Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) said, there is no magic placed to do so. It has a dedicated, experienced staff, bullet to stop people reoffending. People are different. and it has over a century of proven results in this area. By privatising 70% of the probation service, we are The latest independent reports have praised its competence, turning people into statistics and into profits. Private and it continues to work with charities and social investment companies will cherry-pick the best and leave the worst organisations at every level. That organisation is the cases on the vine. I think we need to talk more about probation service, via the probation trusts. There is no why the probation service has been so successful and greater indication that this is an ideological attack on why people have not been reoffending. It comes down the public sphere than the fact that none of the trusts to one thing. When I talk to probation officers, they tell can bid—not even my own local trust, Durham Tees me that everybody is different, everybody faces different Valley, which was rated as showing excellent performance. circumstances and everybody has different needs. Probation The 8,000 low and medium-risk offenders whom it officers get to know these people and develop a relationship supervises will now be transferred to private providers— with them. They understand the barriers and how to unless, of course, those offenders become high-risk stop these people from getting back into a cycle of again, in which case the probation trust will have to pick crime. The probation service has been very good at this, up the pieces. The justification for forbidding probation and we should support what it does. trusts to bid for franchises is that it would risk public I mentioned some statistics about short-term sentences, money because of the “payment by results” system. The which highlight the need for the probation service to get Minister’s mechanism for improving standards bans the involved. We should be expanding the probation service best practitioner right out of the gate. rather than privatising it. We have heard that we must The Ministry of Justice simply does not have the go with our gut instinct. That is what the Justice Secretary skills to deal with private sector contracts of this magnitude. said. Well, let him go with his gut instinct, but the fact In evidence to the Justice Committee, its own permanent remains that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes secretary, Dame Ursula Brennan, said that the lesson and Harlington (John McDonnell) said earlier, this is a learnt from the previous contracting disasters was this: matter of life or death. It is up to the Government, but “When you have something really big and complicated, biting if they get this wrong, there is nothing they can do to it off in bite-sized chunks is now thought to be a better way of apologise to the victims of crime. going.” Why, then, is the Minister ignoring that very lesson, and 6.39 pm proceeding with a radical, hurried, nationwide overhaul? Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): During my Notwithstanding the calls for plurality, the current brief time serving on the Justice Committee, I have seen proposals would allow 21 probation trusts to be run by this Justice Secretary rolling out disaster after disaster just five companies. Those organisations will have to 1027 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1028

[Andy McDonald] have been very clear about our support for the Government on these issues, but untested, uncosted and dangerous have the financial reserves that will enable them to wait upheaval is not the same thing as effective reform, and for results-based payments, and the depth to underwrite this motion calls for the model to be piloted and evaluated any potential losses. In other words, there will be the so that only the good practice gets rolled out. same old cartel consisting of Capita, Serco, A4e, MITIE Pilots that were in place and ready to begin in two and G4S. trust areas were instead cancelled by the Secretary of It is not the family silver that is being sold off in this State. That scrapped any opportunity to test or improve instance; it is the foundations of the house. It is madness the model, learn from mistakes on a small scale, and get that the administration of justice—the basic purpose of it right. Instead, inevitable teething problems, inexperienced the nation state—should be sold to the highest, or in providers, failures in communication and glitches in the this case the lowest, bidder. I urge the Secretary of State untested IT systems will have to be contended with all to look at the trail of calamities that this dogmatic at once on a national scale. My right hon. Friend the pursuit of ideology over evidence has caused, and to Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) reconsider before it is too late. With its latest proposal, urged caution. He said risks had not been thought the Ministry of Justice is not only endangering the through, and he is absolutely right. public finances, but endangering the public. The Government keep referring to the Doncaster and Peterborough pilots. They are prison pilots and are 6.43 pm therefore not comparable, nor are they intended to pilot Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): I welcome the changes for probation, plus, although both pilots showed Secretary of State back to the Chamber. It is a pity that some reasons for cautious optimism, they missed their he could not be here to listen to the heartfelt and sincere targets—which is why it is helpful that they are pilots. expressions of concern from Labour Members. We The people working on those pilots say they have learned could have filled the time three times over, such is our from their mistakes along the way, and of course they anxiety about these proposals. have; that is what pilots are for. We have heard excellent contributions from Members In the same week that universal credit is having to be on both sides of the House. This has been a welcome, if rolled out far more slowly than planned due to serious overdue, opportunity for us to debate the Government’s management and IT difficulties, the Secretary of State upheaval and sell-off of probation services. It is a pity for Justice is refusing to learn from the experience of his that the Government themselves do not welcome the colleagues. Not only that, but he is failing to learn from House’s scrutiny of their proposals. My hon. Friend the the mistakes of his own Department. After the “inglorious Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) described that saga”, as it was christened by the right hon. Member for as shameful. Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), of the Ministry My hon. Friends the Members for Dudley North of Justice’s language services contract, the National (Ian Austin), for Islwyn (Chris Evans), for Middlesbrough Audit Office recommended that the Ministry should (Andy McDonald), for Rotherham (Sarah Champion), “implement future contracts so as to minimise transitional problems, for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and for for example through piloting and rolling-out new systems gradually”. North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) presented clear arguments, and expressed deep concern about the That is good advice. Government’s proposals. The lack of evidence and the By failing to test, evaluate or improve the model, abundance of haste mean that this initiative has “blunder” Ministers are failing to manage effectively the risks that written all over it. These plans will see the majority of come with their plans. They will not even admit to them probation provision handed out to large companies and publish the risk register. Our most serious concern with no experience of probation. They will see offender is risk management and the fragmentation of the supervision divided artificially by risk category, in spite supervision of dangerous offenders. As we have heard of the fact that risk regularly shifts, and the introduction from Members—on both sides of the House, to be of an entirely untested payment-by-results model. We fair—risk is not static. One in four offenders change are told it will be effective, but they cannot tell us how their risk category during their order, and they do not effective, and we are promised it will make us savings, always go from low to medium to high; they shift but they cannot tell us, even roughly, how much will be around far more dynamically than that. As the hon. saved. They cannot tell us the cost, and they cannot tell Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) observed in us any of the efficiency savings they hope to make. his excellent speech, the nub of the matter is that the My right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe Government are introducing a dangerous layer of and Sale East (Paul Goggins) summed it up extremely bureaucracy where an offender, while at their most well. He pointed out the complete absence of costings volatile, will be passed between organisations. There is a and called the plans flawed. Few Members are held in as serious risk—if this is not inevitable—of information high esteem as the right hon. Gentleman on these being lost and vital warning signs being missed through issues. this unnecessary divide, yet the Government have failed So far, the public have been offered a personal testimony to pilot it, and check what sort of delays might be from the Justice Secretary that he thinks the policy will caused and how quickly information can be reliably work, but that assurance comes without evidence as the passed on. Government have not seen fit to test its effectiveness. The Government have failed to provide any evidence Probation is a front-line service that deals with public for the benefits of this upheaval, have failed to admit to safety, and it is not good enough for the Secretary of the inherent risks and publish the risk register, and have State just to “believe” his proposals are right. We are failed to provide a realistic or responsible timetable in not arguing for the status quo and, where we can, we which to operate. The chairs of three probation trusts 1029 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1030 have written to the Secretary State this week to ask him and it is important to bring them more into rehabilitation to delay his rushed timetable, which is risky, unreasonable work—our reforms will do that. That point was made and, they say, “unrealistic”. Apparently, those managing by, among others, my hon. Friend the Member for the changes do not “just believe” that everything is Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard). going to turn out all right. By forcing through a timetable The second huge advantage to what we are proposing that his own Department has deemed “aggressive”, the is that we bring into the ambit of rehabilitation those Secretary of State, who is having a friendly chat with his offenders who at the moment have very little or no colleagues rather than listening, appears to be showing rehabilitation—those who receive sentences of 12 months more concern for being a champion of change—any or less. I detected very little disagreement across the change, it seems—than for safe service delivery. House about that. My hon. and learned Friend the Serious concerns have been expressed, and not only Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier) summed in the Chamber today, about the Ministry of Justice’s up the case for doing that passionately and well; we capacity to ably procure and contract quality have overlooked those people and we should not do so services. The language services procurement process because it is not in our interests to do so, as those are was described as “shambolic” by the Select Committee the offenders with the highest rates of reoffending and on Justice, and the Public Accounts Committee reported it is very important that we deal with them. It is also that the Department was not an “intelligent customer”. important that we deal effectively with support through The Justice Committee also found that the Ministry’s the gate, so that people do not reach the cliff edge that naivety in contracting was matched by its “indulgence he so well described. towards underperformance” after the contracts came The question, surely, for Labour Members, not least into operation. In the past two years, we have had: Jajo those on the Front Bench, is: if they do not like our way the rabbit signed up to be a court interpreter; charges of doing those things, which they agree are worth while, for tagging dead inmates; and a new contracted prison what is their way? I heard not a word of an alternative in which it is easier to get drugs than soap. When is the solution to the problems they accurately describe, except Secretary of State going to recognise the need to hit the of course that the probation trusts should do it all brakes, build skills and capacity in his Department, and themselves. improve on past failures? Interestingly, the right hon. Member for Wentworth My hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen and Dearne (John Healey) suggested that we should (Mike Wood) summed it up brilliantly. He said, and was simply ask the probation trusts to do the work. I was backed up by interventions by my right hon. Friend the rather surprised to hear that from an ex-Treasury Minister, Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), because it would have an additional cost. I suspect that that the Government should trust the skills, experience had I gone to him as a Treasury Minister—he was a and expertise of high-performing trusts, which are hungry very good one in his day—and said that I wanted the to take responsibility for short-term prisoners. What a probation trusts to do more and wanted the money to shame that the Secretary of State puts more faith in his pay for it, it is likely that he would have told me to ask inner belief than in evidence and experience. the probation system to do better with the money it already received. That is exactly what we are proposing. We must make taxpayers’ money work better; that is 6.51 pm hugely important. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Some concerns have been expressed and we take (Jeremy Wright): I thank all right hon. and hon. Members them seriously. I want to pick up on as many as I can. who have spoken and apologise to some for the fact that The first concerns the principle of payment by results, I will not be able to deal in detail with what they have which, it seems to me, is perfectly sensible. We want the said. In particular, I should apologise to the hon. Member taxpayer to pay for those things that work and not for for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), because those that do not. That is at the root of payment by she kindly donated two minutes of her time but some of results. I am confused, however, about the Opposition’s her Labour colleagues have stolen it back. I am sorry view: is it that we should not have payment by results or about that, but I will do my best to answer what has that we should have more? Both views seem to have been said. been expressed. There is no contradiction between two things that Jenny Chapman: On the issue of payment by results, have been said in this debate. The first is that good how much of the contract will be paid regardless of the work is being done up and down the country by probation results? Any more than 90% is not payment by results—it officers. The second is that there is a need for change. is just leaving a tip. I accept that a good deal of good work is being done by probation officers, but they, too, would say Jeremy Wright: As I have said to the hon. Lady that we are simply not doing well enough on reoffending before, this is a process that we are going through with rates, which are far too high; half of those released those who will be involved in the system— from custody are reoffending within 12 months, despite our spending 70% more on probation over the Sadiq Khan: You don’t know. past 10 years. Jeremy Wright: I am confused—[Interruption.] There are two key advantages in what the Government propose to do. The first is that we bring innovation and Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Those good new ideas into the management of offenders. on the Opposition Front Bench should listen to the Many hon. Members on both sides of the House have answer to the question that was asked in an intervention mentioned good voluntary sector organisations that do after the Minister gave way. We will do things in an exactly that sort of work. We want to see them do more, orderly manner. 1031 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1032

Jeremy Wright: I am confused, Mr Deputy Speaker, Brown, Mr Russell Healey, rh John about what I am being asked to do. Am I being asked to Bryant, Chris Hepburn, Mr Stephen pay a bigger percentage by results or am I being asked Buck, Ms Karen Heyes, David not to do it at all? I do not think that the Opposition Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hillier, Meg know. Campbell, Mr Alan Hilling, Julie Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hodge, rh Margaret I have also been asked whether the system will involve Caton, Martin Hodgson, Mrs Sharon contractors passing back difficult cases. That will not Champion, Sarah Hoey, Kate happen for two reasons. First, the decision on whether Chapman, Jenny Hood, Mr Jim an offender has become a high-risk offender will be Clark, Katy Hopkins, Kelvin taken by the national probation service—that means Clarke, rh Mr Tom Howarth, rh Mr George public sector probation officers—not the private sector. Clwyd, rh Ann Hunt, Tristram Secondly, if such a thing were to happen, the individual Coaker, Vernon Irranca-Davies, Huw offender would stay within the cohort for the provider, Coffey, Ann Jackson, Glenda so there would be no financial incentive to pass them Connarty, Michael James, Mrs Siân C. back. Cooper, Rosie Jamieson, Cathy Cooper, rh Yvette Jarvis, Dan Another concern was whether the cheapest bidder Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, rh Alan would win and whether quality would not matter. That Crausby, Mr David Johnson, Diana would absolutely not be the case. We will assess the bids Creagh, Mary Jones, Graham not just on price but on the quality offering. That will Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen include, incidentally, bidders’ ability to work in the Cryer, John Jones, Mr Kevan partnerships that the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan and Sale East (Paul Goggins) rightly described as important, Cunningham, Mr Jim Jowell, rh Dame Tessa whether through integrated offender management or Cunningham, Sir Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald other less formal arrangements. Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz I have been asked why probation trusts cannot bid. Darling, rh Mr Alistair Khan, rh Sadiq My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State explained David, Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David that we do not see how a public sector body can bid for Davidson, Mr Ian Lavery, Ian a payment-by-results contract. That does not mean, De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark however, that people who work in probation trusts now Denham, rh Mr John Leslie, Chris cannot bid for work as part of a mutual, as my hon. Dobbin, Jim Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys Docherty, Thomas Lewis, Mr Ivan suggested. We want to see that happen. Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Doran, Mr Frank Love, Mr Andrew There are two major concerns, are there not? First, Doughty, Stephen Lucas, Caroline the Opposition say we are doing this too fast, but I Dowd, Jim Lucas, Ian make no apologies whatever for acting quickly in this Doyle, Gemma Mactaggart, Fiona matter. As long as we wait, new victims will be created Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Mr Khalid by those who reoffend. We can do something about that Durkan, Mark Mahmood, Shabana and we should. Secondly, the Opposition say that the Eagle, Ms Angela Malhotra, Seema decision is ideological. Let me tell the House what is Eagle, Maria Mann, John ideological: saying, “It doesn’t matter how good your Edwards, Jonathan Marsden, Mr Gordon ideas are or how effective they’ll be. If you come from Elliott, Julie McCabe, Steve the private sector, we’re not interested.” That is the Ellman, Mrs Louise McCarthy, Kerry Opposition’s view; that is ideology if ever I saw it. We Engel, Natascha McClymont, Gregg believe that what works is what should be done. That is Esterson, Bill McDonagh, Siobhain what we propose and that is what our reforms have Evans, Chris McDonald, Andy Farrelly, Paul McDonnell, John suggested. There is no alternative from the Opposition. Field, rh Mr Frank McFadden, rh Mr Pat I urge the House to reject this empty motion and Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Alison support the amendment. Flello, Robert McGovern, Jim Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the Flint, rh Caroline McGuire, rh Mrs Anne original words stand part of the Question. Flynn, Paul McKechin, Ann Fovargue, Yvonne McKenzie, Mr Iain The House divided: Ayes 223, Noes 289. Francis, Dr Hywel McKinnell, Catherine Division No. 115] [6.59 pm Gardiner, Barry Meacher, rh Mr Michael Gilmore, Sheila Meale, Sir Alan AYES Glass, Pat Mearns, Ian Glindon, Mrs Mary Miliband, rh Edward Abbott, Ms Diane Beckett, rh Margaret Godsiff, Mr Roger Miller, Andrew Abrahams, Debbie Begg, Dame Anne Goggins, rh Paul Morden, Jessica Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Benn, rh Hilary Goodman, Helen Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Benton, Mr Joe Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Alexander, Heidi Berger, Luciana Greatrex, Tom Morris, Grahame M. Ali, Rushanara Betts, Mr Clive Griffith, Nia (Easington) Anderson, Mr David Blackman-Woods, Roberta Gwynne, Andrew Mudie, Mr George Austin, Ian Blears, rh Hazel Hain, rh Mr Peter Munn, Meg Bailey, Mr Adrian Blenkinsop, Tom Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Bain, Mr William Blomfield, Paul Hamilton, Fabian Murphy, rh Paul Balls, rh Ed Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hanson, rh Mr David Murray, Ian Banks, Gordon Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Harris, Mr Tom Nandy, Lisa 1033 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1034

Nash, Pamela Smith, Nick Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Jessica Onwurah, Chi Smith, Owen Field, Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Owen, Albert Spellar, rh Mr John Foster, rh Mr Don Leigh, Sir Edward Perkins, Toby Straw, rh Mr Jack Fox,rhDrLiam Leslie, Charlotte Phillipson, Bridget Stringer, Graham Francois, rh Mr Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Pound, Stephen Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Freeman, George Lewis, Brandon Powell, Lucy Tami, Mark Freer, Mike Lewis, Dr Julian Qureshi, Yasmin Thomas, Mr Gareth Fullbrook, Lorraine Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Timms, rh Stephen Fuller, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Reed, Mr Jamie Trickett, Jon Gale, Sir Roger Lloyd, Stephen Reed, Mr Steve Turner, Karl Garnier, Sir Edward Lopresti, Jack Reynolds, Emma Twigg, Stephen Garnier, Mark Lord, Jonathan Reynolds, Jonathan Umunna, Mr Chuka Gauke, Mr David Loughton, Tim Riordan, Mrs Linda Vaz, rh Keith George, Andrew Luff, Peter Ritchie, Ms Margaret Vaz, Valerie Gibb, Mr Nick Lumley, Karen Robertson, John Walley, Joan Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Macleod, Mary Rotheram, Steve Watts, Mr Dave Glen, John Main, Mrs Anne Roy, Lindsay Whitehead, Dr Alan Goodwill, Mr Robert May, rh Mrs Theresa Ruane, Chris Williams, Hywel Gove, rh Michael Maynard, Paul Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Williamson, Chris Graham, Richard McCartney, Karl Sarwar, Anas Winnick, Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen McIntosh, Miss Anne Sawford, Andy Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Gray, Mr James McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Seabeck, Alison Wood, Mike Grayling, rh Chris McPartland, Stephen Green, rh Damian McVey, Esther Sheerman, Mr Barry Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Sheridan, Jim Greening, rh Justine Menzies, Mark Wright, David Shuker, Gavin Hague, rh Mr William Metcalfe, Stephen Wright, Mr Iain Skinner, Mr Dennis Hames, Duncan Miller, rh Maria Slaughter, Mr Andy Tellers for the Ayes: Hammond, Stephen Mills, Nigel Smith, rh Mr Andrew Nic Dakin and Hancock, Matthew Milton, Anne Smith, Angela Phil Wilson Hancock, Mr Mike Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Hands, Greg Mordaunt, Penny NOES Harper, Mr Mark Morgan, Nicky Harrington, Richard Morris, Anne Marie Afriyie, Adam Byles, Dan Harris, Rebecca Morris, David Aldous, Peter Cable, rh Vince Hart, Simon Morris, James Amess, Mr David Cairns, Alun Harvey, Sir Nick Mosley, Stephen Andrew, Stuart Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mowat, David Bacon, Mr Richard Carmichael, Neil Hayes, rh Mr John Munt, Tessa Baker, Norman Carswell, Mr Douglas Heath, Mr David Murray, Sheryll Baldry, Sir Tony Cash, Mr William Heaton-Harris, Chris Neill, Robert Baldwin, Harriett Chishti, Rehman Hemming, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Barclay, Stephen Chope, Mr Christopher Henderson, Gordon Newton, Sarah Baron, Mr John Clappison, Mr James Hendry, Charles Nokes, Caroline Barwell, Gavin Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David Bebb, Guto Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Bellingham, Mr Henry Colvile, Oliver Hollingbery, George Offord, Dr Matthew Benyon, Richard Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollobone, Mr Philip Ollerenshaw, Eric Beresford, Sir Paul Crabb, Stephen Holloway, Mr Adam Opperman, Guy Berry, Jake Crockart, Mike Hopkins, Kris Parish, Neil Bingham, Andrew Crouch, Tracey Horwood, Martin Patel, Priti Binley, Mr Brian Davies, Glyn Howarth, Sir Gerald Pawsey, Mark Blackman, Bob Davies, Philip Howell, John Penrose, John Blackwood, Nicola Davis, rh Mr David Hughes, rh Simon Percy, Andrew Blunt, Mr Crispin de Bois, Nick Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Phillips, Stephen Boles, Nick Dinenage, Caroline Huppert, Dr Julian Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bone, Mr Peter Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jackson, Mr Stewart Pincher, Christopher Bottomley, Sir Peter Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen James, Margot Poulter, Dr Daniel Bradley, Karen Doyle-Price, Jackie Javid, Sajid Prisk, Mr Mark Brady, Mr Graham Drax, Richard Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pugh, John Brake, rh Tom Duddridge, James Johnson, Joseph Randall, rh Sir John Bray, Angie Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Andrew Reckless, Mark Brazier, Mr Julian Ellis, Michael Jones, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John Bridgen, Andrew Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr Marcus Rees-Mogg, Jacob Brine, Steve Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kawczynski, Daniel Reevell, Simon Brokenshire, James Eustice, George Kelly, Chris Reid, Mr Alan Browne, Mr Jeremy Evans, Graham Kirby, Simon Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Buckland, Mr Robert Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Burley, Mr Aidan Evans, Mr Nigel Lamb, Norman Robertson, rh Hugh Burns, rh Mr Simon Evennett, Mr David Lancaster, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Burrowes, Mr David Fabricant, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rogerson, Dan Burt, Alistair Fallon, rh Michael Latham, Pauline Rudd, Amber Burt, Lorely Farron, Tim Laws, rh Mr David Ruffley, Mr David 1035 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1036

Russell, Sir Bob Tomlinson, Justin Crouch, Tracey Howarth, Sir Gerald Rutley, David Tredinnick, David Davies, Glyn Howell, John Sandys, Laura Truss, Elizabeth Davies, Philip Hughes, rh Simon Scott, Mr Lee Turner, Mr Andrew de Bois, Nick Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Shapps, rh Grant Tyrie, Mr Andrew Dinenage, Caroline Huppert, Dr Julian Sharma, Alok Uppal, Paul Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jackson, Mr Stewart Shelbrooke, Alec Vara, Mr Shailesh Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen James, Margot Simmonds, Mark Vickers, Martin Dorries, Nadine Javid, Sajid Simpson, Mr Keith Walker, Mr Charles Doyle-Price, Jackie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Skidmore, Chris Walker, Mr Robin Drax, Richard Johnson, Joseph Smith, Miss Chloe Wallace, Mr Ben Duddridge, James Jones, Andrew Smith, Henry Ward, Mr David Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, rh Mr David Smith, Julian Watkinson, Dame Angela Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Smith, Sir Robert Webb, Steve Ellison, Jane Kawczynski, Daniel Soubry, Anna Wharton, James Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wheeler, Heather Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Spencer, Mr Mark White, Chris Evans, Chris Kwarteng, Kwasi Stephenson, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Evans, Graham Lancaster, Mark Stevenson, John Wiggin, Bill Evans, Jonathan Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Iain Williams, Mr Mark Evennett, Mr David Latham, Pauline Stewart, Rory Williams, Roger Fabricant, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Streeter, Mr Gary Williams, Stephen Fallon, rh Michael Lee, Jessica Stride, Mel Williamson, Gavin Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Dr Phillip Stuart, Mr Graham Willott, Jenny Field, Mark Leigh, Sir Edward Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Foster, rh Mr Don Leslie, Charlotte Sturdy, Julian Wollaston, Dr Sarah Fox,rhDrLiam Lewis, Brandon Swales, Ian Wright, Jeremy Francois, rh Mr Mark Lewis, Dr Julian Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wright, Simon Freeman, George Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Freer, Mike Lilley, rh Mr Peter Swinson, Jo Yeo, Mr Tim Syms, Mr Robert Fullbrook, Lorraine Lloyd, Stephen Young, rh Sir George Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Fuller, Richard Lopresti, Jack Zahawi, Nadhim Teather, Sarah Gale, Sir Roger Lord, Jonathan Thornton, Mike Tellers for the Noes: Garnier, Sir Edward Loughton, Tim Thurso, John Mr Sam Gyimah and Garnier, Mark Luff, Peter Timpson, Mr Edward Mark Hunter Gauke, Mr David Macleod, Mary George, Andrew May, rh Mrs Theresa Question accordingly negatived. Gibb, Mr Nick Maynard, Paul Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl McCartney, Karl Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Glen, John McIntosh, Miss Anne That the proposed words be there added. Goodwill, Mr Robert McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick The House divided: Ayes 278, Noes 218. Gove, rh Michael McPartland, Stephen Graham, Richard McVey, Esther Division No. 116] [7.14 pm Grant, Mrs Helen Menzies, Mark Gray, Mr James Metcalfe, Stephen AYES Grayling, rh Chris Miller, rh Maria Afriyie, Adam Brazier, Mr Julian Green, rh Damian Mills, Nigel Aldous, Peter Bridgen, Andrew Greening, rh Justine Milton, Anne Amess, Mr David Brine, Steve Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Andrew, Stuart Brokenshire, James Hague, rh Mr William Mordaunt, Penny Bacon, Mr Richard Browne, Mr Jeremy Hames, Duncan Morgan, Nicky Baker, Norman Buckland, Mr Robert Hammond, Stephen Morris, Anne Marie Baldry, Sir Tony Burley, Mr Aidan Hancock, Matthew Morris, David Baldwin, Harriett Burns, rh Mr Simon Hancock, Mr Mike Morris, James Barclay, Stephen Burrowes, Mr David Hands, Greg Mosley, Stephen Baron, Mr John Burt, Alistair Harper, Mr Mark Munt, Tessa Barwell, Gavin Burt, Lorely Harrington, Richard Murray, Sheryll Bebb, Guto Byles, Dan Harris, Rebecca Neill, Robert Bellingham, Mr Henry Cable, rh Vince Hart, Simon Newmark, Mr Brooks Benyon, Richard Cairns, Alun Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Newton, Sarah Berry, Jake Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hayes, rh Mr John Nokes, Caroline Bingham, Andrew Carmichael, Neil Heald, Oliver Nuttall, Mr David Binley, Mr Brian Carswell, Mr Douglas Heath, Mr David O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Blackman, Bob Cash, Mr William Heaton-Harris, Chris Offord, Dr Matthew Blackwood, Nicola Chishti, Rehman Hemming, John Ollerenshaw, Eric Blunt, Mr Crispin Chope, Mr Christopher Hendry, Charles Opperman, Guy Boles, Nick Clappison, Mr James Hinds, Damian Parish, Neil Bone, Mr Peter Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hoban, Mr Mark Patel, Priti Bottomley, Sir Peter Collins, Damian Hollingbery, George Pawsey, Mark Bradley, Karen Colvile, Oliver Hollobone, Mr Philip Penrose, John Brady, Mr Graham Cox, Mr Geoffrey Holloway, Mr Adam Percy, Andrew Brake, rh Tom Crabb, Stephen Hopkins, Kris Phillips, Stephen Bray, Angie Crockart, Mike Horwood, Martin Pickles, rh Mr Eric 1037 Probation Service30 OCTOBER 2013 Probation Service 1038

Pincher, Christopher Sturdy, Julian De Piero, Gloria Lewis, Mr Ivan Poulter, Dr Daniel Swales, Ian Denham, rh Mr John Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Prisk, Mr Mark Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Dobbin, Jim Love, Mr Andrew Pugh, John Swinson, Jo Docherty, Thomas Lucas, Caroline Randall, rh Sir John Syms, Mr Robert Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Ian Reckless, Mark Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Doughty, Stephen Mactaggart, Fiona Redwood, rh Mr John Teather, Sarah Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Mr Khalid Rees-Mogg, Jacob Thornton, Mike Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Reevell, Simon Thurso, John Dromey, Jack Malhotra, Seema Reid, Mr Alan Timpson, Mr Edward Durkan, Mark Mann, John Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Tomlinson, Justin Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Truss, Elizabeth Eagle, Maria McCabe, Steve Robertson, rh Hugh Turner, Mr Andrew Edwards, Jonathan McCarthy, Kerry Robertson, Mr Laurence Tyrie, Mr Andrew Elliott, Julie McClymont, Gregg Rogerson, Dan Uppal, Paul Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonagh, Siobhain Rudd, Amber Vara, Mr Shailesh Engel, Natascha McDonald, Andy Ruffley, Mr David Vickers, Martin Esterson, Bill McDonnell, John Russell, Sir Bob Walker, Mr Charles Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat Rutley, David Walker, Mr Robin Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Alison Sandys, Laura Wallace, Mr Ben Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Jim Scott, Mr Lee Ward, Mr David Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Shapps, rh Grant Watkinson, Dame Angela Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann Sharma, Alok Webb, Steve Flint, rh Caroline McKenzie, Mr Iain Shelbrooke, Alec Wharton, James Flynn, Paul McKinnell, Catherine Simmonds, Mark Wheeler, Heather Fovargue, Yvonne Meacher, rh Mr Michael Simpson, Mr Keith White, Chris Francis, Dr Hywel Meale, Sir Alan Skidmore, Chris Whittingdale, Mr John Gardiner, Barry Mearns, Ian Smith, Miss Chloe Wiggin, Bill Gilmore, Sheila Miliband, rh Edward Smith, Henry Williams, Stephen Glass, Pat Miller, Andrew Smith, Julian Williamson, Gavin Glindon, Mrs Mary Morden, Jessica Smith, Sir Robert Willott, Jenny Godsiff, Mr Roger Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Soubry, Anna Wilson, Mr Rob Goggins, rh Paul Morris, Grahame M. Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wollaston, Dr Sarah Goodman, Helen (Easington) Spencer, Mr Mark Wright, Jeremy Greatrex, Tom Mudie, Mr George Stephenson, Andrew Wright, Simon Griffith, Nia Munn, Meg Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Mr Jim Stevenson, John Yeo, Mr Tim Stewart, Iain Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Paul Young, rh Sir George Stewart, Rory Hamilton, Mr David Murray, Ian Zahawi, Nadhim Streeter, Mr Gary Hamilton, Fabian Nandy, Lisa Stride, Mel Tellers for the Ayes: Hanson, rh Mr David Nash, Pamela Stuart, Mr Graham Mark Hunter and Healey, rh John Onwurah, Chi Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Mr Sam Gyimah Hepburn, Mr Stephen Owen, Albert Heyes, David Perkins, Toby NOES Hillier, Meg Phillipson, Bridget Hilling, Julie Pound, Stephen Abbott, Ms Diane Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hodge, rh Margaret Powell, Lucy Abrahams, Debbie Campbell, Mr Alan Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Qureshi, Yasmin Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hood, Mr Jim Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Caton, Martin Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Jamie Alexander, Heidi Champion, Sarah Howarth, rh Mr George Reed, Mr Steve Ali, Rushanara Chapman, Jenny Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Emma Anderson, Mr David Clark, Katy Irranca-Davies, Huw Reynolds, Jonathan Austin, Ian Clarke, rh Mr Tom Jackson, Glenda Riordan, Mrs Linda Bailey, Mr Adrian Clwyd, rh Ann James, Mrs Siân C. Ritchie, Ms Margaret Bain, Mr William Coaker, Vernon Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John Balls, rh Ed Coffey, Ann Jarvis, Dan Rotheram, Steve Banks, Gordon Connarty, Michael Johnson, rh Alan Roy, Lindsay Beckett, rh Margaret Cooper, Rosie Johnson, Diana Ruane, Chris Begg, Dame Anne Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Graham Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Benn, rh Hilary Corbyn, Jeremy Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Benton, Mr Joe Crausby, Mr David Jones, Mr Kevan Sawford, Andy Berger, Luciana Creagh, Mary Jones, Susan Elan Seabeck, Alison Betts, Mr Clive Cruddas, Jon Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Sheerman, Mr Barry Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cryer, John Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sheridan, Jim Blears, rh Hazel Cunningham, Alex Keeley, Barbara Shuker, Gavin Blenkinsop, Tom Cunningham, Mr Jim Kendall, Liz Skinner, Mr Dennis Blomfield, Paul Cunningham, Sir Tony Khan, rh Sadiq Slaughter, Mr Andy Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Curran, Margaret Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, rh Mr Andrew Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Danczuk, Simon Lavery, Ian Smith, Angela Brown, Mr Russell Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Nick Bryant, Chris David, Wayne Leslie, Chris Smith, Owen Buck, Ms Karen Davidson, Mr Ian Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Spellar, rh Mr John 1039 Probation Service 30 OCTOBER 2013 1040

Straw, rh Mr Jack Whitehead, Dr Alan Rachael and Auden Slack Stringer, Graham Williams, Hywel Tami, Mark Williamson, Chris Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Thomas, Mr Gareth Winnick, Mr David do now adjourn.—(Karen Bradley.) Timms, rh Stephen Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Trickett, Jon Wood, Mike 7.28 pm Turner, Karl Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Twigg, Stephen Wright, David Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): I am grateful for Umunna, Mr Chuka Wright, Mr Iain the chance to raise this important, if tragic, issue. I Vaz, rh Keith remember it well because the murder of Rachael and Vaz, Valerie Tellers for the Noes: Auden Slack took place shortly after the general election, Walley, Joan Phil Wilson and and I mentioned it in my maiden speech nearly three Watts, Mr Dave Nic Dakin and a half years ago. I am not sure that it is a great commendation for our system that it has taken three Question accordingly agreed to. and a half years to get to the inquest, and to have the The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as chance to try to learn some of the lessons from the amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). tragic death of three people. Resolved, Rachael and Auden Slack were murdered on 2 June That this House applauds the work already carried out by 2010 by Rachael’s ex-partner and the father of Auden. probation trusts and other agencies to turn offenders away from The gentleman concerned had been suffering from mental crime; and welcomes the Government’s proposals to build on that health issues for quite a long time, and there had been work to further reduce re-offending by extending support after various reports about his behaviour to the police, local release to offenders given short custodial sentences, introducing health services and mental health trust social services. an unprecedented nationwide through-the-prison-gate resettlement Sadly, however, not enough action was taken, and on service so that offenders are given continuous support by one 2 June he stabbed his ex-partner and child and took his provider from custody into the community, harnessing the skills and experience of trained professionals and the innovation and own life with the same knife. It was a truly awful versatility of voluntary and private sector providers to support incident, and probably one of the worst murder situations the rehabilitation of low and medium risk offenders and creating we can imagine, especially as Rachael was pregnant at a new National Probation Service that will work to protect the the time. We lost three innocent lives because of what public and will directly manage those offenders who pose a high seemed to many people to be the failure of various parts risk of serious harm to the public. of the system to provide the protection, prevention or indeed the health care needed, that could possibly have PETITION prevented it from happening. The reason for the debate tonight is that the inquest Sainsbury’s Development in Rushey Mead (Leicester) finally reported last week. The verdicts for Rachael and Auden were that they were unlawfully killed, and that, in part, their deaths were more than minimally contributed 7.26 pm to by a failure to impress upon Rachael that she was at Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): This weekend in high risk of serious injury or homicide from her ex-partner. Leicester it will be Diwali, but unfortunately the celebrations A further verdict on Auden’s death was that the police are going to be ruined—unlike the wonderful celebrations had failed to discuss with Rachael what steps could we have had in the House this afternoon—because of have been taken to address the risks to him. the Sainsbury’s development at the top of Melton road. The case is one of far too many around the country That development has had a terribly detrimental effect in which domestic violence incidents are not taken as on local residents, with traffic piling up for several miles seriously as we might like, ending with tragic results. and local residents having to stay up all night because of This tragedy resulted in the death of two people and an the works going on. I held a public meeting last Friday, unborn baby. The purpose of the debate is to press the and local residents wanted me to present a petition to Government on what more we can do to change or Parliament today. It is very much hoped that Sainsbury’s improve the system to prevent anything like this from will listen to this petition, so that the Diwali celebrations ever happening again. on Belgrave and Melton road can be successful. It is worth recounting some of the facts. As I have The petition states: said, the police, the mental health trust, the general The Petition of residents of Leicester East, practitioner and others had been involved in the case. Declares that the development plans by Sainsbury’s in Rushey The facts in the week before the tragic incident are as Mead are having a negative impact on the daily lives of the follows. On 26 May, Rachael took her ex-partner to a Petitioners’ families. police station after he refused to get out of her car. He The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons was assessed by the mental health team but released urges the Department for Communities and Local Government because they believed he was no threat. Questions have to introduce legislation relating to major retail developments to been asked about whether those who did that assessment allow local people to have a say on how the work is carried out were fully aware of his mental health history, which was and so that potential noise and traffic problems are considered and to provide compensation. known to the same trust. And the Petitioners remain, etc. Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I am grateful to the hon. [P001260] Gentleman for the tone and the manner in which he is conducting the debate. As he knows, Andrew Cairns’s family live in my constituency. They are grieving for Rachael, for Auden, for Rachael’s unborn child and, of 1041 Rachael and Auden Slack30 OCTOBER 2013 Rachael and Auden Slack 1042 course, for Andrew. Mr Cairns’s family have told me of making sure that cases that look to be serious receive the lengthy battle fought by them and by Rachael to get specialist follow-up as soon as possible to ensure that him the help he needed as his mental health deteriorated signs of escalating behaviour or real risk have not been over many years. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it missed by a perhaps less trained person. In general, I is essential that we learn the lessons from this tragic agree with my hon. Friend’s suggestion. case? Four lives could have been saved had we done so The coroner last week suggested that he would make earlier. some recommendations to the Home Office, and I am not sure whether the Minister has received those yet. Nigel Mills: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s kind One of those suggestions was for some kind of electronic words. I agree entirely that there seems to have been a document that would summarise the important details long failure to provide Andrew with the care he needed. in the investigation that would be available to all the We cannot be wise after the event. None of us can say police officers involved in the case. Outside agencies that people must have known the incident would happen. might also have some input, such as the mental health However, perhaps they ought to have seen a pattern of teams, social services, the local health teams or anyone escalation of his condition—perhaps it gave off more else deemed relevant. It is key to ensure the full and warning signs than were seen. complete sharing of information between the various On 28 May, in that tragic week, two days after teams involved. If everyone who had ever dealt with Andrew was arrested and assessed, he phoned Rachael this case had known the full history of the complaints more than 20 times. He went round to see her and by Rachael and Mr Cairns’s mental health issues, it forced her to take him and the child out. While they might have shown the pattern of escalating behaviour. were out at a park, he threatened to kill her and made He might have been viewed as a much higher risk than various threats saying that she did not realise how was initially thought by most of the people involved. dangerous he could be. That was reported to the police. Another suggestion is that perhaps we could strengthen Sadly, he was released on police bail with conditions not police bail conditions or introduce greater sanctions if to approach Rachael, but no further action was taken. they are breached. There is a question about what can A neighbour reported further threats Andrew had be done by court bail and what can be done by the made to take away Auden. There was some concern that police, but it cannot inspire public confidence if someone the police did not take action following that report. At is released on police bail with a condition that he that point, the police concluded that Rachael was at cannot approach someone, but very little action appears high risk. Unfortunately, there is no evidence that they to be taken if he approaches her soon after being given told Rachael how high their assessment of the risk was. that bail condition. That is what led to the coroner’s findings. A public campaign, supported by 38 Degrees—not On the day of the tragic incident, Mr Cairns visited an organisation Conservative Members are always his GP, who reported that Mr Cairns was anxious and fans of—suggests a full public inquiry into how the agitated. Mr Cairns remarked to the GP that, “The next whole system deals with domestic violence issues. The few days will be the most important of your career.” By Independent Police Complaints Commission is carrying the time Mr Cairns left the GP, he had apparently out a review, but as various police forces around the calmed down and was rational, but, clearly, even on the country have received strong criticism from the IPCC day, he had made a cry for help that sadly was not on how they have handled domestic violence cases in heeded. I am sure that, if any of the police, the mental recent years, perhaps we need to go a step further than health team, the GP or anybody else had thought that an IPCC review. A full public inquiry could look at all the tragedy would happen later that day, they would the agencies involved rather than just focusing on the have taken action to prevent it. The question we need to police, which is not where all the issues lie. Perhaps the ask is: what more could have been done to assess the Minister could tell me whether the Government are risk properly and see whether there was a realistic risk inclined to have a public inquiry on an issue as of such a tragic event? No hon. Member wants anything important as this. The statistics suggest that two or like this tragedy to happen again. three women a week are killed in domestic violence incidents, and that is an awful situation for a country Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I such as ours still to be in. congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. Does he agree that it is important that our Derbyshire It is not for us to reinvestigate this case. Reports are police, whom we love and trust, have a specialist domestic still required from the police and various other agencies, violence unit that can look into incidents and give but my purpose today is to raise with the Home Office professional advice to people who do not necessarily both the tragedy of this case and the points at which deal with domestic violence day-to-day? greater action could have been taken to protect Rachael— perhaps to give her greater security, or regrettably to Nigel Mills: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her advise her to flee her home to ensure that she was not at intervention and I entirely agree. One of the issues is immediate risk—or to address Mr Cairns’s health needs, ensuring that the police have the specialist knowledge perhaps including sectioning him or giving him more and training to be able to handle domestic violence intensive treatment than he was able to get. Is it fair that cases. The right answer has to be more specialist police Rachael was never recorded as Mr Cairns’s carer so she officers, but because there are so many reports of domestic never really got any information or support for the help abuse, which police all over the county have to handle that she was trying to give her ex-partner for his mental urgently, I am not sure that it is possible always to send health condition? out a specialist domestic violence officer to each of Having discussed this with Derbyshire police over the those incidents. It is perhaps a question of ensuring past three years, I am aware that they have reviewed better training in general for police officers and then their processes and have tried to make improvements. 1043 Rachael and Auden Slack30 OCTOBER 2013 Rachael and Auden Slack 1044

[Nigel Mills] The circumstances of Rachael and Auden’s deaths are tragic, and were eloquently outlined by my hon. There are outstanding reports that may require further Friend. The sad loss of such individuals is doubly consideration, but they now have initiatives to work distressing, because it is now clear from the coroner’s more closely with social services from the same base findings that their deaths could have been prevented. and to try to improve links with the mental health team. Such a case deserves our attention and we must ensure Perhaps the Minister can talk about initiatives he may that lessons are learned, but we must do more than that: have seen elsewhere that could be rolled out as best we must ensure that those lessons are acted on. I have practice around the country. The closer the working noted with concern the findings of the coroner in this relationships, the more immediate the contact and the case, Richard Hunter, which were released on 22 October. sharing of information, all of which might make a I understand that he will be writing to the Home positive outcome more likely. We all talk about greater Secretary in due course. I would like to thank him for partnership working and sharing, but people work in his thoroughness and diligence in such a difficult case. silos and if there are not robust processes and good I was concerned to read that police failings “more personal working relationships, trying to bridge three than minimally” contributed to Rachael and Auden’s trusts or public bodies with different demands on their deaths. I have the utmost respect for the police and the time is not always very effective. The question is: how vital work they do with professionalism and integrity can we improve and create best practice? day in, day out. However, it is alarming that in this case It is tempting to think that Parliament could wave a officers appear to have assessed Rachael as being in magic wand, pass a new Bill or give new powers to stop danger and yet failed to pass that message on to her—the this type of incident happening. I am not convinced one person who really needed to know. The Independent that we have missed anything. The police have never Police Complaints Commission is currently assessing said to me, “If only we had had this power we could all the evidence in this case following the inquest. It will have stopped it.” However, if the Minister has any then make a decision on the next steps. This case suggestions about extra powers that the police need or follows other reports from the IPCC that have flagged could have used in this case that they were not aware up police failings, such as the cases of Maria Stubbings, of—I am not saying that that is the case—that would be Clare Wood and Susan McGoldrick. I would like to helpful to the family. There is a feeling among the reassure Parliament that I take such cases extremely family, friends and the community that something went seriously; such failings cannot be allowed to happen horribly wrong—that this was preventable and that again. somehow the system failed. If there is anything that can Since Rachael and Auden’s deaths in 2010, the come out of an incident as tragic as this, it is that it Government have supported a series of reforms to the never happens again. handling of domestic violence by the police. All police I again stress my condolences to the family and forces have measures in place to ensure officers have the friends of Rachael and Auden for their tragic loss. I knowledge and skills to deal effectively with cases of wish that the inquest had reported several months or domestic violence. Specific training on domestic violence years earlier. It is a pity that we have had to wait three and abuse is included in the national police training and a half years before being able to have a public curriculum. This training was updated this year to take assessment to start to learn the lessons in the public account of the Government’s introduction of a new domain. I urge the Minister to do whatever he can to definition of domestic abuse. The new definition helps make the inquest system much faster. I struggle to see to prevent the escalation of abuse, which can end in why we have to put people through three and a half tragedy, by dispelling the belief that domestic abuse years of waiting before they can get the closure they begins and ends with violence. It places coercive control need. I hope the Minister can provide some assurance at the centre of determining whether abuse is taking that the Government take this issue very seriously—I place. know they do—and that we can expect further progress Perhaps most significantly, since April 2011 the to ensure that this kind of thing can never happen Government has placed homicide reviews on a statutory again. footing. Now every local report into a domestic homicide is reviewed and quality assured by a panel of independent and Home Office experts. A community safety partnership 7.42 pm in Derbyshire is among those to have completed a domestic homicide review that has been quality assured The Minister for Crime Prevention (Norman Baker): by the independent panel. Each review has resulted in a It is the convention on these occasions to congratulate tailored action plan that must be delivered by the area the hon. Member who secured the debate. I am not sure in question to make sure we learn from these individual that “congratulate” is quite the right word in this case, tragedies. I am also happy to confirm that the Home but my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley Office will be issuing a document collating the lessons (Nigel Mills) has been absolutely right to raise this learned from these reviews into a national action plan. matter. I welcome his contribution and the contributions My hon. Friend asked about specialist teams. Of of other hon. Members. course, that is a matter for each individual police force I want to begin by offering my condolences to the to decide, but it is important—indeed essential—that family of Rachael Slack and her son Auden, and commend police who attend domestic violence cases have the right them for the courage and dignity they have shown at training. The Home Office is working closely with the this difficult time. Domestic violence is an abhorrent College of Policing to ensure that this occurs. The crime, and one that the Government is committed to Home Secretary has also announced a force-wide review tackling with determination. This is a high priority for by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary into how both me and the Home Secretary. the police deal with domestic violence. 1045 Rachael and Auden Slack30 OCTOBER 2013 Rachael and Auden Slack 1046

My hon. Friend also mentioned mental health, as did action to end a cycle of abuse, as well as providing the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy). The Home immediate relief and protection. We are currently carrying Secretary chairs an inter-ministerial group on violence out an evaluation of both the pilots, and we expect to be against women and girls, on which I also sit, and I will able to announce plans for their future soon. raise this matter with the Department of Health to There is no room for complacency, however. It is ensure we address any gaps in the system, including because of cases such as Rachael’s that the Home information sharing and risk assessment. Members are Secretary has commissioned HMIC to review police absolutely right to expect this to be joined up across handling of domestic violence and abuse. The inspection Departments, and joined up locally as well. is under way and I look forward to receiving the findings, probably in April. We will review the recommendations Nigel Mills: Does the Minister also agree that when with care, and ensure that they are acted on as we strive assessing domestic violence cases, it is important to for further improvements in this area. bear in mind the risk to the children as well? It is not The crime figures for England and Wales show that always just a case of the woman or man; we need to the levels of domestic abuse experienced in the past year look at the risk faced by the children, but in this case I are lower than they were in 2004-05, and that the am not sure that that was done as thoroughly as it conviction rates for violence against women and girls ought to have been. are higher than before, but hon. Members have rightly expressed concern at the reduction in domestic violence Norman Baker: We will see what the coroner writes to referrals to the Crown Prosecution Service by the police the Home Secretary, but my hon. Friend is absolutely at the end of last year. The Home Office has held a right that in any situation of suspected domestic abuse, round-table with the Director of Public Prosecutions it is right that children’s services are engaged, if there and national policing leads to understand the cause of are children present. Sometimes, if there is domestic this downward trend, and the Attorney-General has abuse of a partner, there can also be domestic abuse issued a six-point plan to address this. We will continue against children. It does not always follow, but sometimes to work on delivering against that plan in the coming it does, and we ought to ensure that it is covered in any weeks. assessment. This Government has ring-fenced nearly £40 million Lisa Nandy: I appreciate that, as a Home Office for specialist local domestic and sexual violence support Minister, the hon. Gentleman is focused on the important services. Facilities funded with this money include lessons of this tragic case for the police and the Home 144 independent domestic violence advisers, who help Office, but I really do not want us to lose sight of the victims of domestic violence get their voices heard, and fact that Mr Cairns had been extremely unwell over a 54 multi-agency risk assessment co-ordinators, who protect number of years, and that concerns had been raised the interests of those such as Rachael who are most at repeatedly by Rachael and by Mr Cairns’s wider family. risk. Up to 60% of abuse victims report no further I would be grateful if the Minister could pass on the violence following intervention by independent advisers. concerns about the care that Mr Cairns received, and This national funding operates in tandem with local about the failure to act on the warning signs, to his initiatives, and I am sure my hon. Friend will join me in colleagues in the Home Office, so that those issues can congratulating Derbyshire county council on the support also be addressed. it is now offering, which includes the Derbyshire domestic abuse helpline, to those at risk of domestic abuse. I Norman Baker: That is a valid point. As I mentioned encourage all local authorities to remember the importance a moment ago, we need a joined-up approach not only of such initiatives when making difficult decisions about in Government but at local level. I have undertaken to spending and delivering more for less. ensure that the Department of Health is made aware of the particular aspects of the scheme, so that it can work But we can, should and will do more nationally to with us to plug any gaps that are identified. reach out to those caught in cycles of abuse. That is why the Home Office has piloted two new initiatives designed The point was also made about delays relating to the to empower victims and stop domestic abuse in its coroner. I agree that that process took a long time, and tracks. This comes to the point my hon. Friend made ideally there would not be such a long wait. We want to about what more can be done. The first of these pilots is see justice being completed quickly, and the delays were named after another young victim, Clare Wood, who obviously painful for those who wanted closure. I would was tragically murdered by her former partner in Salford be happy to raise that matter with the relevant Justice in 2009. Known as Clare’s law, the domestic violence Minister to see what can be done, and I will pass those disclosure scheme is a system where anyone can seek comments on. disclosure of a partner’s violent past. Those with the We have also founded the College of Policing, and legal right to know are provided with information that announced its role in providing professional standards could well save lives, empowering them to make an for policing and helping police officers and staff to meet informed choice about their futures. those standards throughout their careers. It will be the Our second pilot scheme creates a new process to college’s mission to ensure that officers and staff understand protect victims in the immediate aftermath of domestic and comply with the highest ethical standards. We hope abuse. Domestic violence protection orders have the that this will drive up standards in the police generally. power to prevent a perpetrator of domestic abuse from Domestic violence is a crime, and the worst possible having contact with the victim for up to 28 days. This violation of trust in human relationships. Deaths such offers both the victim and the perpetrator the chance to as those of Rachael and Auden rightly cause shock and reflect on the incident. In the case of the victim, it outrage, but we must also ensure that action is taken to provides an opportunity to determine the best course of prevent a similar thing from happening again and to 1047 Rachael and Auden Slack30 OCTOBER 2013 Rachael and Auden Slack 1048

[Norman Baker] at a team meeting of all chief constables, and in the coming weeks I will be meeting representatives of women’s secure justice for those who have lost their lives. I will be groups. I look forward to discussing our plans with carefully reviewing the actions that we have taken over them and listening to what they have to say about this the past three years against the coroner’s findings in this matter. It is vital that we respond to cases such as case, to ensure that we do all we can to prevent appalling Rachael’s to ensure that those who are vulnerable to the tragedies such as these from happening again because worst crimes are protected. I look forward to updating of the same failings. Parliament on our continued progress in tackling domestic violence in coming months. Through our violence against women and girls action plan, the coalition Government has made significant Question put and agreed to. strides towards a better reality for victims of domestic abuse, but we know that there is still much to do. 7.54 pm Tomorrow, I shall raise my concerns on domestic abuse House adjourned. 1049 30 OCTOBER 2013 Deferred Division 1050

Deferred Division Henderson, Gordon Newmark, Mr Brooks Hendry, Charles Newton, Sarah Hermon, Lady Nokes, Caroline ENTERPRISE Hinds, Damian Offord, Dr Matthew That the draft Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (Designation Hoban, Mr Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric of the UK Green Investment Bank) Order 2013, which was laid Hollingbery, George Opperman, Guy before this House on 17 July, be approved. Hopkins, Kris Paisley, Ian The House divided: Ayes 290, Noes 22. Horwood, Martin Parish, Neil Division No. 113] Hosie, Stewart Patel, Priti Howarth, Sir Gerald Pawsey, Mark Howell, John Penrose, John AYES Hughes, rh Simon Percy, Andrew Aldous, Peter Drax, Richard Hunter, Mark Phillips, Stephen Amess, Mr David Duddridge, James Huppert, Dr Julian Pickles, rh Mr Eric Andrew, Stuart Duncan Smith, rh Mr James, Margot Pincher, Christopher Baker, Norman Iain Javid, Sajid Prisk, Mr Mark Baldry, Sir Tony Durkan, Mark Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pugh, John Baldwin, Harriett Edwards, Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Randall, rh Sir John Barclay, Stephen Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Reid, Mr Alan Barwell, Gavin Ellison, Jane Jones, rh Mr David Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bebb, Guto Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr Marcus Ritchie, Ms Margaret Bellingham, Mr Henry Eustice, George Kawczynski, Daniel Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Benyon, Richard Evans, Graham Kelly, Chris Robertson, Angus Berry, Jake Evans, Jonathan Kirby, Simon Robertson, rh Hugh Bingham, Andrew Evans, Mr Nigel Knight, rh Sir Greg Robertson, Mr Laurence Binley, Mr Brian Evennett, Mr David Kwarteng, Kwasi Rogerson, Dan Birtwistle, Gordon Fabricant, Michael Lamb, Norman Rudd, Amber Blackman, Bob Fallon, rh Michael Lancaster, Mark Ruffley, Mr David Blackwood, Nicola Farron, Tim Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Russell, Sir Bob Boles, Nick Featherstone, Lynne Latham, Pauline Rutley, David Bottomley, Sir Peter Field, Mark Laws, rh Mr David Sanders, Mr Adrian Bradley, Karen Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Dr Phillip Sandys, Laura Brady, Mr Graham Fox,rhDrLiam Leech, Mr John Scott, Mr Lee Brake, rh Tom Francois, rh Mr Mark Leslie, Charlotte Selous, Andrew Bray, Angie Freer, Mike Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Shannon, Jim Bridgen, Andrew Fullbrook, Lorraine Lewis, Brandon Shapps, rh Grant Brine, Steve Fuller, Richard Lewis, Dr Julian Sharma, Alok Brokenshire, James Gale, Sir Roger Lloyd, Stephen Sheerman, Mr Barry Brooke, Annette Garnier, Sir Edward Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Shelbrooke, Alec Browne, Mr Jeremy Garnier, Mark Lord, Jonathan Simmonds, Mark Buckland, Mr Robert Gauke, Mr David Loughton, Tim Simpson, David Burns, rh Mr Simon George, Andrew Lucas, Caroline Simpson, Mr Keith Burrowes, Mr David Gibb, Mr Nick Luff, Peter Skidmore, Chris Burt, Alistair Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lumley, Karen Smith, Miss Chloe Burt, Lorely Glen, John Macleod, Mary Smith, Henry Byles, Dan Goldsmith, Zac MacNeil, Mr Angus Smith, Julian Cable, rh Vince Goodwill, Mr Robert Brendan Smith, Sir Robert Cairns, Alun Gove, rh Michael Main, Mrs Anne Soubry, Anna Cameron, rh Mr David Graham, Richard Maynard, Paul Spelman, rh Mrs Campbell, Mr Gregory Grant, Mrs Helen McCartney, Karl Caroline Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Gray, Mr James McCrea, Dr William Spencer, Mr Mark Carmichael, Neil Grayling, rh Chris McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Stanley, rh Sir John Chishti, Rehman Green, rh Damian McDonnell, John Stephenson, Andrew Clappison, Mr James Griffiths, Andrew McIntosh, Miss Anne Stevenson, John Clegg, rh Mr Nick Gummer, Ben McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stewart, Iain Coffey, Dr Thérèse Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Collins, Damian Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Stride, Mel Colvile, Oliver Hames, Duncan Menzies, Mark Stuart, Mr Graham Corbyn, Jeremy Hammond, rh Mr Philip Metcalfe, Stephen Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Crabb, Stephen Hammond, Stephen Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian Crockart, Mike Hancock, Matthew Milton, Anne Swales, Ian Crouch, Tracey Hancock, Mr Mike Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Davey, rh Mr Edward Hands, Greg Mordaunt, Penny Swinson, Jo Davies, Glyn Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Swire, rh Mr Hugo Davis, rh Mr David Harrington, Richard Morris, David Syms, Mr Robert de Bois, Nick Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Dinenage, Caroline Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Teather, Sarah Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mowat, David Thornton, Mike Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey Hayes, rh Mr John Mulholland, Greg Thurso, John M. Heald, Oliver Munt, Tessa Timpson, Mr Edward Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Heath, Mr David Murray, Sheryll Tomlinson, Justin Doyle-Price, Jackie Hemming, John Neill, Robert Tredinnick, David 1051 Deferred Division30 OCTOBER 2013 Deferred Division 1052

Truss, Elizabeth Whiteford, Dr Eilidh NOES Turner, Mr Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Afriyie, Adam Long, Naomi Uppal, Paul Williams, Hywel Baker, Steve Mercer, Patrick Vaizey, Mr Edward Williams, Mr Mark Bone, Mr Peter Nuttall, Mr David Vara, Mr Shailesh Williams, Roger Burley, Mr Aidan Raab, Mr Dominic Vickers, Martin Williams, Stephen Carswell, Mr Douglas Reckless, Mark Walker, Mr Charles Williamson, Gavin Davies, Philip Redwood, rh Mr John Walker, Mr Robin Willott, Jenny Doran, Mr Frank Sharma, Mr Virendra Wallace, Mr Ben Wilson, Mr Rob Dorries, Nadine Shepherd, Sir Richard Weatherley, Mike Wishart, Pete Hollobone, Mr Philip Skinner, Mr Dennis Webb, Steve Wollaston, Dr Sarah Holloway, Mr Adam Watts, Mr Dave Weir, Mr Mike Wright, Simon Jackson, Mr Stewart Wiggin, Bill Wharton, James Yeo, Mr Tim Wheeler, Heather Young, rh Sir George White, Chris Zahawi, Nadhim Question accordingly agreed to. 261WH 30 OCTOBER 2013 Cancer Patient Experience 262WH

cancer patient experience survey reveals that before Westminster Hall starting treatment, 45% of patients were not fully informed about the side effects that could affect them in future, that 78% were not offered a written assessment and care Wednesday 30 October 2013 plan, and that 41% were not given enough support from health and social services after leaving hospital. As a [ALBERT OWEN in the Chair] result, not all patients felt that their families were given all the information needed to help care for them at home. That is clearly an area where there is room for Cancer Patient Experience improvement. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Amber Rudd.) David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on obtaining this important debate. He mentioned Macmillan, which says in the research 9.30 am paper on the survey: Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): Mr Owen, it “The lack of basic care, dignity and respect experienced by is a pleasure to have you chairing the debate on a cancer patients in hospital is shocking.” subject that is important to many families up and down It also says that 15% of patients experienced humiliation. the country. Some 2 million people in the UK are living That should not happen to someone suffering from with or beyond cancer, and that figure is set to rise to cancer. 4 million by 2030. Although it is a cause for celebration that more people than ever survive after a diagnosis of Mr Clappison: The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent cancer, a significant challenge must arise in ensuring point, and some of the matters I will turn to in due that their clinical and human needs are met and that course underline its strength. May I apologise to hon. patients have the best possible experience. Members? I mentioned NHS England, because that is Before turning to the nature of the challenge and the what the survey covers, but I will turn to the situation in points I wish to raise, I pay tribute to all those who Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland in due course. I work in and support the many charities and voluntary am delighted that so many Members from Northern organisations that address the challenge posed by cancer. Ireland are here this morning. There are many such organisations, but, with utter The next issue is financial support. Cancer patients respect to all those involved in the field, I shall mention and their families obviously need financial support, just just a few: Macmillan Cancer Support, Cancer Research as everybody else does. Although significant progress UK, Breakthrough Breast Cancer, Marie Curie Cancer has been made since the first cancer patient survey in Care, Breast Cancer Care, Beating Bowel Cancer, the 2010, almost half of patients who would have liked Roy Castle Lung Cancer Foundation and the Teenage information about how to get financial help or benefits Cancer Trust. There are many others. They all do still do not receive it. fantastic work and much to improve patient experience and give hope to many of our constituents. Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I congratulate The Government have set great store by patient my hon. Friend on securing this hugely important debate. experience and all the issues that naturally interest He mentioned the importance of financial advice and cancer patients. I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend support, but does he agree that service design is also the Prime Minister’s ambition to give every cancer important? I came across a case of one constituent, patient the opportunity to be a research patient if he or David Wilson, who, while undergoing chemotherapy, she so wishes; that must interest many people in that received 270 different pieces of paper from our city position. council in just one month—August this year. It is vital The UK now leads the world in recruiting cancer that we design services so that Her Majesty’s Revenue patients to take part in research. One in five cancer and Customs, local councils and the Department for patients in the UK takes part in some form of research, Work and Pensions work together to make life for which compares with 3% of people in a similar position patients easier and simpler and to ensure that they in the United States. I pay tribute to the research understand the financial entitlements. of Cancer Research UK in that regard. Last year, 36,000 patients took part in its trials in this country. Mr Clappison: My hon. Friend makes an excellent I welcome the fact that NHS England has said that it point that I am sure the Minister will want to address. plans to continue the important national cancer patient The last thing that somebody coping with the treatments experience survey. The results of the 2012-13 survey and everything else wants is to be bombarded with showed that there is room for improvement in some different pieces of information and requests from central areas of care. I make that point not as a criticism of the or local government bodies, which could do something NHS, but to highlight areas where there is room for much more coherent and easy to understand if they improvement. Macmillan Cancer Support highlighted streamlined their services. some such areas in particular, and has urged Ministers I would like to address relational care, which the hon. to take notice of and act on them. I urge Ministers to Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) raised in his listen to the representations being made to them by intervention. It covers matters such as communication, Macmillan Cancer Support and others. trust in nurses and being treated with respect, all of The national cancer patient experience survey highlighted which are important for cancer patients. There is still several important issues, and I will mention three. The room for improvement, according to the findings of the first is care planning and information. The most recent most recent survey. For example, 42% of respondents 263WH Cancer Patient Experience30 OCTOBER 2013 Cancer Patient Experience 264WH

[Mr Clappison] include a question asking whether the respondent has secondary breast cancer? The Breast Cancer Campaign said that not all doctors and nurses asked what name specifically asks to have that included. patients preferred to be called by, which can be important More generally, I welcome the Government’s ambitious to older people. It is a question of finding the right plans to improve cancer care in the United Kingdom, amount of kindness. Our clinicians—nurses and doctors— including those they set out in January 2011 in “Improving are marvellous, but that did emerge from the patient Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer”, which promised survey. Kindness can make a great difference to people action on a number of important fronts, such as diagnosing in that situation. symptomatic cancer earlier; helping people live healthier Macmillan Cancer Support’s report showed that patient lives to reduce the incidence of preventable cancers; experience across the NHS is still not regarded as screening more people; introducing new screening having equal importance as clinical effectiveness and programmes, as recommended by the National Screening patient safety. The Government’s decision to make patient Committee; and ensuring that all patients have access to experience one of the five domains against which the the best possible treatment, care and support. health service will be held to account should be warmly Those measures should save at least an additional welcomed. It is clear, however, that a lot of effort needs 50,000 lives every year by 2014-15. Many of us will be to be put into the institutional framework to reinforce aware of the efforts being put into those different fields, that priority. to encourage people to come forward for screening, to The NHS mandate and outcomes framework needs a make screening available, to make members of the stronger focus on improving relational care. Hospital public more aware of symptoms and to encourage boards need to take a lead on prioritising patient care; a people to lead healthier lives. That has been much more recent survey showed that its importance to different evident than it had been hitherto. In the light of all that, hospital boards varies considerably, which is clearly it would be good to hear from the Minister what progress wrong, because all hospital boards should take it seriously. has been made on the ambitions that the Government Commissioners of cancer services have a vital role to set out in January 2011. play, as does the chief inspector of hospitals. All such Furthermore, what progress has been made in tackling bodies need to reinforce the need for relational care and inappropriate regional variations in cancer outcomes? kindness in dealing with cancer patients. Many advances have been made in cancer treatment in the UK, of course, but historically there has been a disparity on cancer survival rates between the UK and Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I congratulate the other comparable western nations. That has been the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate, and I apologise case for many years, under Governments of all parties, for having to leave before the end. Does he think that it but it was underlined most recently by a 2009 Eurocare is also important that priority be given to communication study, which revealed a disparity between UK cancer skills between medical staff and patients? That is the survival rates and those achieved in countries with the core of what he has outlined. best outcomes. England rated 16th in the survey for both men and Mr Clappison: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman women. Wales was ranked just in front, and Scotland for that intervention. I agree that communication skills and Northern Ireland were just behind. Apart from are important; the important factor is that kindness Ireland, every other major western European nation should be received by the patient. performed better than the UK, and some of them much better. Sweden was the best performing country. I put a point to the Minister on behalf of Macmillan Cancer Support: I hope that the Government will deal The 2009 analysis was a little old, because it was with the matters we have discussed and put patient based on patients diagnosed between 1995 and 1999, experience at the heart of the inspection process being although that had to be the case to detect survival rates. put in place for our health service. One way of doing More recent surveys have also seen the same pattern, that is to use the results of the cancer patient experience such as one comparing the USA with the United Kingdom. survey to inform ratings at a cancer team and service With older patients, there is an even more marked gap level and to monitor and assess providers of care—for between the UK and other comparable nations and example, as part of the foundation trust assessment economies. I have seen figures from the British Journal process. of Cancer that show that for women over 70 with breast cancer, the three-year survival rate in the UK is 79%, In the light of all that, I have four specific questions but in Sweden, it is 91%. for the Minister, on behalf of Macmillan Cancer Support and other charities. First, will the Government consider Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): I making relational care a priority area in the refreshed congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. 2014-15 mandate to NHS England? Secondly, will the Although comparisons are always dangerous, a further Government support the use of cancer patient experience acknowledgement of how far we remain behind our data in the inspection regime of the Care Quality European partners is that even if we met the Government’s Commission, which is led by the chief inspector of laudable target of saving an extra 5,000 cancer lives hospitals? over the next couple of years, that would still only bring Thirdly, will the Government work with commissioners us up to the European average on survival rates. and providers to ensure that the results of the national cancer experience survey continue to drive improvements Mr Clappison: My hon. Friend makes an excellent in cancer care? Fourthly, and specifically on breast point. I am sure he would agree that there is a lot of cancer, can the national cancer patient experience survey ground to make up. The important point is that we 265WH Cancer Patient Experience30 OCTOBER 2013 Cancer Patient Experience 266WH should not only take encouragement from the improvement I suspect that other Members will confirm what I already of survival rates as a result of advances in medical know. A 10% increase in cancer cases in Northern science; we should judge ourselves by how well we use Ireland is extremely worrying. those advances compared with other countries. We should My father and sister suffered from cancer. Of the set ourselves the more ambitious target of not just four staff employed in my Newtownards office, my improving survival rates, but improving them so much parliamentary aide had two grandparents die from cancer that we close the gap on other countries. and her father suffers from cancer, my secretary had her Members of the British public who fall ill with cancer mother die from cancer and she recently buried one and their families expect cancer treatment to be on a brother-in-law to cancer and has another undergoing level with that of comparable countries, our neighbours chemotherapy. Only my office manager seems to have and other western developed economies. Sadly, it is not escaped cancer in their immediate family. Some 75% of at that level, although I hope the Minister will tell us my office staff have experienced cancer in their close that we have made some progress. family and individually. Yesterday, some encouraging statistics were released If we look into the community, we can see that my that showed a trend of increasing survival for patients examples provide an accurate reflection of the way that diagnosed between 2007 and 2011. The Minister will cancer affects entire communities. Someone in the United agree that that is good news, but I look forward to Kingdom is diagnosed with cancer every two minutes. hearing from her that the Government’s ambition is to More than one in three people in the UK will develop close the performance gap between ourselves and other some form of cancer during their lifetime, which is a countries and that the gap is being closed. horrifying statistic. The risk of developing cancer before In closing, I should like to pay the utmost respect to 50 is 1 in 35 for men and 1 in 20 for women, so the doctors, nurses and all clinicians working in the field. situation is more extreme for ladies. We owe them a great debt of gratitude and my comments As elected representatives, our constituents often come are no reflection on them. We are all hugely indebted to to our offices to ask how to find their way through the their work and I am sure that many of our constituents benefits system. They experience health pressures to would echo that sentiment. I am just drawing attention start with, but financial pressures soon follow. Just to how the system has operated in this country over a yesterday, my hon. Friend the Member for East number of years, and the experience of the patients Londonderry and I went to the Macmillan Cancer within it. I hope that the Minister can tell me that the Support reception here in the Houses of Parliament Government have ambitious plans for improving the and we had the important opportunity to speak to cancer patient experience and that there is evidence that carers. I will highlight some of the issues raised as we go those plans are on the road to fulfilment. through this debate.

Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): 9.46 am Before my hon. Friend moves on to discuss carers, which is an important matter, does he agree that a big Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I am grateful, issue is people’s reluctance and sometimes failure, in Mr Owen, for being called to make a contribution to particular among us males, to visit the GP when there this debate. It is on cancer patient experience, but we may be a problem? We should encourage everybody, but will all have personal experience of the issues. I congratulate males in particular. I do not understand the logic. If my the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) on television does not work, I get a TV repair man in. If tabling the subject for debate. In his introduction he the washing machine does not work, I get the washing rightly said that the debate refers to the NHS in the machine repair man in. If people have a health problem, UK, and there are four Northern Ireland MPs here they go to their GP.Unfortunately, however, males seem because each of us can contribute to the debate by reluctant to do that. relating our experiences. I hope that the Minister will consider a strategy that involves not just the mainland, but all four regions. Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. The males of the species do tend to wait As I was saying to my hon. Friend the Member for just that wee bit longer. I will not relate my personal Upper Bann (David Simpson) earlier today, when I first case to Westminster Hall, but we do sometimes leave considered my contribution to the debate, I realised that things a little longer than we should, which is perhaps I have never before known so many people in my age a failing on our part. The Health Minister and his group, so many of my friends and so many of those just Department in Northern Ireland have run several campaigns older than me who have had cancer, and I have never to highlight prostate cancer in particular. It may be that experienced so many people passing away as a result MPs know more people, but I have two close friends of it. who were diagnosed with cancer. Thankfully, in both I have had a number of meetings with the Minister cases, they acknowledged early that something was back in Northern Ireland, Edwin Poots, and I intend to wrong and went to their doctors and were then referred have a public meeting in my constituency to review for health checks. I am happy to say that the treatment cancer care with the general public and the trust and that they are now receiving will save their lives, but if look at how best we can do it. My frustration is the diagnoses had been made a couple of months later, I compounded by discussions with the trust. I do not suspect that it may have been different. My hon. Friend want to be critical, because that is not how I do things—I is absolutely right. Entire families and communities are try to see how we can move forward and be more affected by this cancer pandemic. The House must positive—but I am concerned about the magnitude of deliver an effective strategy to help those experiencing cancer cases in my area and across the United Kingdom. the scourge of cancer. 267WH Cancer Patient Experience30 OCTOBER 2013 Cancer Patient Experience 268WH

[Jim Shannon] We can hopefully try to address that problem today. Cancer is no respecter of persons, but that does not I read with great interest the Macmillan report and mean that cancer treatment precludes the sufferer receiving the hon. Member for Hertsmere outlined the many the utmost respect and dignity through treatments that cancer organisations and societies that do tremendous may be undignified in their essence.squeeze-col2 We work. Macmillan’s document, “Improving care for people have all lost a little dignity while in the doctor’s surgery with cancer: Putting cancer patient experience at the and the manner of the doctor or nurse often determines heart of the NHS”, wants patient care at the core of the how embarrassed we become. If we are treated gently NHS and I heard yesterday from carers and people and with care rather than being pushed through the involved with Macmillan how important that is. The process as quickly as possible to get the next patient report references England and Wales only, but the overall seen, we may feel better as a result. That does not message is mirrored throughout the UK, and the other always happen and I can certainly appreciate the pressure Northern Irish Members and I are here today to provide that doctors and nurses are under to do the procedures, the experience of Northern Ireland. tick the red-tape boxes and bring down waiting lists. I recently met Edwin Poots, the Minister of Health, However, the fact that we are not dealing with lists but Social Services and Public Safety in Northern Ireland, with people must never be far from our minds. regarding the provision of cancer carers in my area, as it Again, I stress that I am not placing the blame on the is clear that changes that could really make a difference providers of care, but something must be done to address cannot be implemented due to a lack of funding, which the fact that, on average, only 56% of cancer patients in is part of the problem, and the lack of a strategy for the England said that doctors and nurses asked them by increases in demand over the next 10, 20 or 30 years. what name they wanted to be called, which was an issue Looking at the Ulster hospital in particular—I am not highlighted by the hon. Member for Hertsmere. A little going to be critical of the staff, who are tremendous and bit of consideration and allowing the patient to maintain can never be paid enough for what they do—I can see their dignity does not take a whole lot of effort. It may greater demand and that needs to be taken on board. I seem trivial, but this is a serious point: a girl called ask the Minister to consider holding discussions with Betty works in my office and were I to call her “Beatrice”, those in the regions, in particular with the Northern she would get upset and would tell me. Similarly, should Ireland Assembly and Edwin Poots, because we need a I refer to the other lady in my office as Mrs Cotter when strategy that takes into account the whole of the United she is actually Mrs Armstrong-Cotter, she would Kingdom and not just the mainland. We can work immediately put me in my place. I use those examples together. Experiences, interests, qualifications and because it is important that a caring bond is formed knowledge may differ across the UK, but it is time that with cancer patients. A wee bit of time, consideration, we exchanged some of that in order to help each other. humility and dignity can really make a difference. The Getting back to the Macmillan report, it states what I same can be said on a greater scale when people are am sure that everyone here believes: doing intimate things to patients while always reminding them that patients do not know them. That is a small “Every person diagnosed with cancer should have a positive thing that the Macmillan report highlighted that could care experience and be treated with dignity and respect throughout their cancer journey.” make a patient feel that much more comfortable and indeed that much more safe. My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann said in his intervention that people needed to be treated as human The carers at the Macmillan reception also described beings and not just as numbers. some things that they thought should be happening in hospitals. They outlined the need for someone to be available to hospitals across all regions. The six people David Simpson: Will my hon. Friend join me in we met yesterday were all from different parts of the praising young carers, who look after family members United Kingdom and all had different stories to tell. It until Marie Curie or Macmillan move in? Their lives are seems that some trusts are responding well, but others detrimentally affected by the trauma. Young carers are not. We need a universal response that encompasses cannot be praised enough. all areas. The Macmillan representatives also suggested that someone should also be available to provide advice Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for that comment. on benefits and on care and just to give support. In my constituency, we have a young carers organisation Another point that came out of yesterday’s discussion that also works with adults. I have met some young was about respite care. Some of the ladies we met were carers and am aware of young sons and daughters who single carers—in other words, a wife looking after a look after mothers, fathers and other siblings. We could husband, with no sons, daughters or other family members not do without them. We are ever mindful of their close at hand. We also need to consider the issue of experiences. I know young carers, my hon. Friend knows respite care and how we can help such carers get a wee them and I suspect that everyone in the House knows bit of time for themselves. individual young carers. Some people may ask how the cancer experience can Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The hon. Gentleman ever be positive, but although going through cancer will said that Macmillan Cancer Support has suggested that always be horrific, the care that is given can and does help with understanding social security and welfare impact upon how a patient feels. The Macmillan report advice is important. Is he aware that, in the Altnagelvin states: area hospital in my constituency, Macmillan and the “Good patient experience is closely connected to improving Western Health and Social Care Trust run the independent other outcomes such as recovery from an illness. However, the sad Macmillan/North West advice service to do exactly reality is that many people still have a poor experience of care.” that? It basically navigates people through the benefits 269WH Cancer Patient Experience30 OCTOBER 2013 Cancer Patient Experience 270WH system and all the other support mechanisms. It does I apologise to him that I will have to leave slightly early not expect people to be experts on such arrangements in to meet, coincidentally, the new cancer tsar, Mr Sean the public administration system, but takes away an Duffy. That appointment has been in the diary for some awful lot of the worry and provides pathways to care time. I echo my hon. Friend’s warm words of praise for and support that they would not otherwise know was all those charities and individuals who work towards available. combating this disease. They do excellent work, which I know all of us across the House very much support and Jim Shannon: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. praise. I have such a service in my area. I am pleased that Macmillan and others provide such a level of care and As chairman of the all-party group on cancer, I support at times of great concern and worry in the congratulate the Government on their excellent work Ulster hospital in Dundonald. I must say a great thank on cancer in recent years. Focusing on outcomes as a you to the volunteers—a great many of them are volunteers driver of change within the NHS has been crucial in not —who provide that service. only driving up outcomes, but ensuring that changes in the NHS take place for the benefit of patients. It is nice to see the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), in her place, because I will not speak for long, because I am conscious that she and I had a discussion the other day about the there will be other speakers after me, but to give a little report on care that is coming to the House for consideration. bit of the history, the all-party group produced a report I hope that some of the points made by the ladies to in 2009 on cancer inequalities across the UK. We tried whom we spoke will be part of our next debate on the to analyse why patients who reach the one-year point in draft Care and Support Bill, and I am sure that no one this country stood as much chance of getting to the will be found wanting in responding to that. five-year point as in any other health system in Europe, In my opinion, the ethos of a hospital is reflected in while we fell down on getting patients to the one-year how patients are treated. The Macmillan survey, which point. That result tends to suggest that the NHS is as highlighted the priority of patient experience, has painted good as, if not better, at treating patients once cancer a picture of how each different hospital board views the has been diagnosed, but is very poor at diagnosing importance of the patient care experience. It found that cancer in the first place. boards raised patient experience as an agenda item in We tried to come up with a solution for how to drive policy meetings, but that only 5% of such items led to forward earlier diagnosis. I suggest that that is the further action: boards noted the patient experience, but magic key for cancer. There are very few magic keys in did not deem it important enough to follow up. life that will unlock the door to a panoply of unexpected When I wore my other hat as a councillor, for some treasures, but one exists for cancer—earlier diagnosis. years I chaired the council’s audit and risk management With the wider cancer community, the all-party group—it committee and read the absolutely endless reports on sees itself as representing that community in Parliament— matters prioritised as categories 1, 2 or 3: something in proposed putting up in lights the one-year and five-year category 1 needed immediate attention, something in survival indicators. category 2 needed attention in a reasonable time, and Instead of bombarding local primary care trusts, as something in category 3 needed attention just at some they then were, with lots of targets and bureaucracy, we stage. It is safe to say that many of the category 3 decided to put up those indicators in lights, with the priority cases remained the same and did not change emphasis on the one-year point, as a driver of change. from year to year, because time never permitted for PCTs—now clinical commissioning groups—that were making those changes, as something more urgent was towards the bottom of the table would, if their managers always pressing. In other words, there were always were worth their salt and their large salaries, introduce category 1 and 2 priorities and, unfortunately, category 3 local initiatives, peculiar to their population: for example, priorities sometimes sat on the shelf. My belief is that whether theirs was an ageing population, whether an patient experience should not be a category 3 priority, adaptation was needed for an industrial illness, such as but should be considered as a category 1 priority; it mesothelioma, or whether there were black and minority should not have to wait until everything else is fixed ethnic communities. Those local initiatives would drive before it receives attention. up earlier diagnosis to combat those poor one-year To conclude as I began, cancer is a wretched illness, survival figures, because we all know that late diagnosis whose deadly or grimy fingers reach out to impact on makes for poor one-year survival figures and, in turn, wide family circles, as well as entire communities. The poor five-year figures. experience of going through cancer has an impact on The Government listened not only to us, but to the not only the individual, but the people around them. I cancer community that also came up with the idea, and believe that it is time to make cancer a priority, with a to Members from both sides of the House who came in UK strategy for the Government here and those in the behind it. We campaigned together, and we are delighted regions of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. That that the Government have now put in place one-year is why I wholeheartedly support the hon. Member for and five-year survival figures both nationally and locally Hertsmere and, in doing so, I again ask that any decision through the CCG outcomes indicator set—brilliant news. taken by the Secretary of State will look at having a UK There has to be a bit of tweaking, for the simple strategy as well as additional funding. I thank the hon. reason that we were previously dealing with PCT Gentleman for bringing forward this debate. populations that were larger than those of CCGs, so the issue of statistical significance comes into play. I was 10.4 am not wholeheartedly behind—in fact, if anything, I was Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): I quite sceptical—about the structural changes to the congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere NHS, but that is now history and we have to deal with (Mr Clappison) on securing this important debate. the future. Given that the populations are smaller, we 271WH Cancer Patient Experience30 OCTOBER 2013 Cancer Patient Experience 272WH

[Mr John Baron] something within our possession that is effective in driving forward improvements. The idea of monitoring are now arguing for the introduction of proxy measures cancer patient experience locally is feasible. locally to supplement, although not to replace, the As my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere one-year figures. Measures focusing on accident and mentioned, more than 2 million people are living with emergency and on staging would be two ways to supplement and beyond cancer. That will rise to 4 million by 2030. the one-year figure. That is an ongoing conversation, Cancer is a unique and complex medical condition, and and the Government and NHS England are in constructive as we well know, certain aspects of patient experience dialogue with us about it. have a particular emphasis for people living with cancer. I mentioned the focus on outcomes because, to achieve The CPES has a high sample size and response rate. improved cancer outcomes, it is essential to put up in Data from the 2010, 2011 and 2012 surveys are already lights the patient experience and to prioritise it nationally easily accessible for CCGs to analyse. They are useful and locally. If I have one concern about the present and user friendly. Furthermore, the CPES is regarded as direction of Government policy, it is that patient experience an example of best practice in measuring holistic patient is built in at national level, through the outcomes framework, experience of care—looking at the complete pathway— but as yet, it is not built in at the local or outcomes which is something that we do not talk enough about in indicator set level. I am not alone in worrying that there the NHS. It is particularly important, as the Minister will be a disconnect. Setting the bigger picture strategy fully understands, when it comes to cancer patients. is well intentioned and essential, but if we are really to In conclusion, lots of good work is being undertaken improve patient experience, we need to ensure that that by the Government on cancer. The Minister will know national policy is followed through locally.At the moment, that I am not afraid to come forward and say otherwise that is not taking place, and if we do not put that right if I think that that is the case. None the less, I urge her pretty quickly, we risk not meeting the Government’s to look again at what appears to be a disconnect between laudable target of an extra 5,000 lives saved by 2015, a national priority and implementation locally. The which is something that we all very much want. cancer patient experience survey is terribly useful, helpful The Minister, to whom I wish the very best in her new and effective. We need to get it into the CCG OIS. I post—I did not get the opportunity to say that in hope the Minister will respond to that point when she Health questions—will know from her civil servants sums up, but I apologise that I will not be here to listen that the cancer community and the APPG on cancer to her. participated in the public consultation on the 2013-14 clinical commissioning group outcomes indicator set. 10.15 am Held by the National Institute for Health and Care Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): It is a pleasure, Excellence, it listed patient experience of cancer services Mr Owen, to meet under your chairmanship this as a potential indicator for future development. The morning. I congratulate the hon. Member for Hertsmere NICE CCG OIS advisory committee agreed that such (Mr Clappison) on introducing this important debate. I experience would be useful, yet it is not included in the want to raise a few points on the cancer experience that 2014-15 CCG outcomes indicator set. I ask the Minister arise from my constituency. in all earnestness to look at that again. We are talking As other Members have said, it is important that, in about NHS England to a very large extent, but I would providing and modelling our services, we should directly be very surprised if there were not conversations with it draw on the experience, both in qualitative and quantitative about such issues. Will the Minister use her influence terms, of patients and focus on outcomes. We also need and best offices to try to influence the debate? to harness fully the insights that patients can give us There is no shortage of reasons why cancer patient into how services can be improved, better managed, experience is important and why it should be included better modelled and, more importantly, better accessed locally. I will bombard the Minister with one or two and understood. facts. We know, for example, that there is vast variation In my constituency, there has been a major campaign of cancer care across the country. There are unacceptable for a localised radiotherapy unit. It was meant to happen geographical variations, and we need to iron them out. as part of the overall improved cancer strategy in Northern There have been some particularly bad examples recently Ireland, but for various reasons it got held up. The in London, and we need to look at them. campaign was led by the Pink Ladies, a group who have Within cancer itself and the condition of cancer, gone through the cancer journey.They have all experienced there are huge variations. For example, people with breast cancer, but they are in no way exclusive about rarer cancers report a worse experience. People in the their cancer as opposed to other types of cancer experience. most deprived areas report less favourably on their care. On Monday morning, I attended a Pink Ladies Those are reasons why the monitoring of cancer patient event, which focused on the new partnerships in which experience locally is important. the group was involved. It has spread its involvement Furthermore, the cancer patient experience survey is to include not just Macmillan Cancer Support and effective at driving improvements locally, and that must Action Cancer but local community partnerships. It not be overlooked. By contrast to the current CCG OIS discussed providing new services at a neighbourhood indicators under domain 4, the cancer patient experience level, including counselling services, listening-ear services survey captures detailed service specific data about and complementary therapy services. All are supported trusts’ performance across a range of aspects of cancer by professionals in the Western Health and Social Care patient experience. For example, all London trusts put Trust. action plans in place, following the 2010 cancer patient The issue is about making the services more accessible, experience survey, so we know that that is effective. We comfortable and compatible with local users, who will do not need to reinvent the wheel on that one; we have rely very much on those who have been through, and 273WH Cancer Patient Experience30 OCTOBER 2013 Cancer Patient Experience 274WH are going through, the cancer experience, because such However, as I say, we were able to create that cancer people are best placed to give support to others who are centre without going to a private finance initiative or new to the journey. anything else. Great work is being done there, not only On the point made by the hon. Member for East for the patients it serves in Northern Ireland but because Londonderry (Mr Campbell) about male sufferers, an of the calibre of people it can attract and the clinical offshoot of the Pink Ladies has been formed comprising trials it can run, which are all part of improving the males who have been through, or are on, the cancer picture of cancer services throughout the United Kingdom. journey. They, purely in derivative terms, call themselves As other hon. Members have said, staff at that centre the Pink Panthers, but they are addressing exactly the and others are helping to work miracles every day with issues that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. Part of the people who are suffering from cancer, but they are very role of the groups is to help to provide advice to other conscious and very clear that their task is still to keep patients, and their families and carers, about some of narrowing the gap between what the services ought to the issues that might arise and to anticipate some of the be and what they actually are, which is why we constantly questions that might be going through patients’ heads— need to drive on performance and outcomes in these questions that they are just not able to articulate or are areas. not yet ready to vocalise. Regarding the cancer experience, I am also very conscious of a constituent of mine who wrote a book a Mr Robin Walker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman number of years ago, based on her experience, which for giving way. I apologise for having to leave the debate basically says, “I have cancer but it doesn’t have me.” before the summing up. She is a lady called Kate Dooher and her book sets out I want to pick up on the hon. Gentleman’s point very clearly her experience of a cancer journey and the about how cancer patients can contribute to the campaigns. implications for her family, colleagues and friends. Again, I have had a radiotherapy campaign in my own constituency policy makers can get real insight from that about what in which Paul Crawford, a former head and neck cancer the issues mean in real and practical terms. patient, has played an important role. Does the hon. I am a member of a number of the all-party groups Gentleman agree that cancer patients can play an important on cancer, including all-party groups on different cancers, role by getting on the boards of local health trusts and here in Parliament. Those groups can provide a platform health bodies and providing knowledge and experience, for those with real insights, those who are providing as indeed my constituent has? care, those who are leading a lot of the professional fight against cancer and those who are driving the Mark Durkan: I fully accept the hon. Gentleman’s research platform. We should not underestimate the point. The point that I was about to make myself importance of either research or the linkage between exactly “rhymes” with his observation. It is that these good care networks and research. That is why Cancer people are in a position to offer advice to others diagnosed Research UK is one of the most prominent advocates with cancer; to offer advocacy to politicians, service for more radiotherapy provision, because it believes providers and managers as to how things can be improved; that such provision not only makes services more accessible and to offer real insight in administrative terms, by but that it is important in qualitative terms and in the helping to future-manage such services and review them research benefits that can come from improving services against the sort of yardsticks that other hon. Members and treatment models in the future. have said they must be measured against. Going back to what the hon. Member for Hertsmere I said that the radiotherapy unit now to be based at said, that is why, when we are talking about the patient Altnagelvin, which will be funded on a cross-border experience, we very much have to listen to the patients basis in Ireland, is really a roll-out of part of the wider themselves and base things not on what we think is the cancer strategy in Northern Ireland. A number of years “nice fit, reasonable fit, just about cost-effective patient ago, I served as Minister of Finance in Northern Ireland experience” but think in real and wholehearted terms in the first Executive following the Good Friday agreement, about the patient experience. and then as Deputy First Minister. One of the most Patients know how they have been able to improve important things I did was when we negotiated what their own experience for themselves, and they know was called a reinvestment and reform package, with new how services whose staff might think they work do not borrowing powers coming from Westminster but also a really work for them, and how those services can be funding package that was to complement the infrastructure improved and modified. We need to gain their insight fund that we as the Executive had developed. and emancipate their understanding as part of lighting The first item that I was able to insist on with Tony the way forward for ourselves. Blair and then with the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown)—the two former Prime Albert Owen (in the Chair): In calling Eric Ollerenshaw Ministers—was that funding should go to the regional to speak, I remind Members that I will be calling the cancer centre. It was meant to be a key part of the Front-Bench spokespersons at 10.40 am at the latest. cancer strategy in Northern Ireland that was being led and advocated by Professor Paddy Johnston. We were 10.24 am able to fund that scheme, which was not coming forward and which did not seem to be breaking through in the Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I Department of Health’s plans or budget submissions to would like to think that I take the message, Mr Owen. It me or to anybody else. We had been on the point of is a pleasure to serve under you. losing Paddy Johnston, who was going to go back to the It is also a pleasure to congratulate the new Minister, United States, where he was going to be funded to do all my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), sorts of things and use his skills. on her appointment. She has a reputation as a listening 275WH Cancer Patient Experience30 OCTOBER 2013 Cancer Patient Experience 276WH

[Eric Ollerenshaw] on numerous occasions and, sadly, often they were sent home. I know that it is incredibly difficult for GPs. We Minister and I am sure that, when she makes her closing are expecting a lot of them, but there is still a lot more remarks, she will prove to have listened to all of us here to be done in ensuring that GPs across the country are today. consistent in their approach to people who present with I start off in a very partisan situation. As the hon. certain symptoms. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, we are getting to the “cancer world”, as I call it; it is like a Eric Ollerenshaw: My hon. Friend is absolutely right separate world that involves different people, often through and I totally agree with him. That is the kind of information personal experience. My experience of it is personal, that we, as an all-party group, have been receiving from but also through being secretary of the all-party group right across the country. on pancreatic cancer. If I may, Mr Owen, I will give a little plug here—the all-party group is producing a As I said, there is a lack of specialism, even in a report, which the Secretary of State for Health has hospital situation sometimes. The issue with pancreatic agreed to take at a meeting on 25 November. All hon. cancer is that there is a repetition of non-specific symptoms. Members will be invited to that meeting. Again, I cite my own personal experience from the case of my partner—he just had a stomach ache that went The report is about improving outcomes. I congratulate on and on, without a particular issue. Other hon. Members my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) have referred to what males tend to do, and they are on securing this debate at this timely moment. What we absolutely right; we often put these things to one side in the all-party group are trying to see is a further and say, “It is a stomach upset”, despite the repetition improvement in outcomes, at a time when outcomes for of symptoms. What we are trying to get GPs to look at cancer patients are improving. When I was growing up is this: if they are seeing somebody who has never been in the 1950s and 1960s, if somebody mentioned the to them before, somebody who never really goes to a word “cancer” it was almost as if a life sentence had GP but keeps turning up, an alarm bell should be been passed. We are in a different situation now. sounding. Pancreatic cancer is seen as perhaps the most difficult I will cite some other figures, although I am aware of cancer, and there are issues connected with that. I will the time factor. Some 33% of pancreatic cancer patients cite some statistics to demonstrate the situation that feel that they have been given conflicting information, pancreatic cancer patients often find themselves in. My compared with 29% of all other cancer patients. Some hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay 13% of pancreatic cancer patients did not get answers (Mr Baron) is far more experienced in this area than I to important questions all or most of the time, compared am, and he put his finger on the issue by stressing the with 9% of all other cancer patients. Some 36% of importance of early diagnosis. pancreatic cancer patients felt less likely to feel that I will give the figures from the national cancer patient their views were being taken into account by doctors experience survey: 40% of pancreatic cancer patients and nurses when discussing treatment, compared with visited their GP three or more times before diagnosis; 30% of all other cancer patients. and 25% visited their GP five or more times before As I said, I am being totally partisan. The all-party diagnosis. Those figures compare with 75% of all other group’s experience and my experience personally is that, cancer patients who are referred to hospital after one or for some reason, this country is way down the line on two GP visits. pancreatic cancer—despite it being the fifth biggest From the investigation that the all-party group made, cancer, in terms of the number of people who die from I can cite the specific example of someone who came to it—when it comes to international comparisons for us to give their own personal experience. They said: improved outcomes. There are treatments, but far too “With regard to early diagnosis, the most important aspect for often they are far too late, because of people’s constant us was the fact that Gemma went to her GP on a total of 10 appearances at GPs. separate occasions between the middle of April 2009 and the end Other Members have talked about dignity and of August, when she was finally referred to a specialist”. humiliation. I will be utterly personal about the issue, That is the experience of most people with pancreatic because, in one sense, that is what has driven me to get cancer. In my own case, I think that my partner went to so involved. I remember my partner’s situation. It was a the GP six or seven times before somebody then said, case of finally going to hospital, being told that people “Better go to a hospital.” there would do some tests and then that they would Then, when a patient gets to the hospital situation, carry out an operation because they thought it was quite often there is no access to a specialist in pancreatic cancer. “What does that mean?” We did not know. cancer. If a clinical nurse specialist is not available, the I can remember being sat in the hospital and my patient is even more lost. I underline the importance partner coming back, straight from surgery, with things that the all-party group attaches to the clinical nurse wrapped round. We said, “What is it?” The doctor specialist in almost holding the hand of somebody with turned round and said, “Oh, it’s terminal.” That is the cancer as they go through the system. kind of situation that happens. Where is the understanding? Where are the few minutes where they say, “Let’s just go through this. Let’s look at the options”? Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I want to tell my hon. Friend about a meeting that I had with a I understand that people working in hospitals are radiotherapist in my constituency just a week or two under pressure, but there were repeated examples of ago. They told me that, all too often, patients who such experiences at the all-party group. As other hon. appear for treatment tell him that they visited their GP Members, particularly those from Northern Ireland, 277WH Cancer Patient Experience30 OCTOBER 2013 Cancer Patient Experience 278WH have said, a person should not have to be brain of There is now strong evidence that good patient experience Britain or have gone on a training course to have a little is consistently and positively associated with better more time and to treat people with a little more dignity. health outcomes and safer and more clinically effective I finish with two particular demands, or requests, for care. A systematic review of 55 studies, which was the Minister. The all-party group wants consideration published in the British Medical Journal last year, found to be given to an awareness campaign, particularly that good experience is linked to better outcomes for about pancreatic cancer. I add my praise for the involvement individual patients—both the outcomes that patients of Macmillan and Pancreatic Cancer UK, which is the themselves report and objectively measured outcomes. charity that backs up the all-party group and continues It was also found that patients who have a good experience to support us, in terms of the campaign on awareness. are also more likely to stick to their recommended treatments and medicines and to use preventive services, Macmillan has been piloting decision tools to help such as screening, immunisation and healthy living GPs assess the risk of cancer, including pancreatic programmes. cancer, and make decisions about further referrals. We would like to see those properly evaluated with consideration The third reason why patient experience is important given to a full roll-out of the pilots that Macmillan has is that there is increasing evidence—from the US, if not been spearheading so fantastically. from the UK—that it is linked to getting better value We have also been trying to raise awareness that for money. A good patient experience, in the US at pancreatic cancer is not an old man’s disease, in crude least, is associated with a reduced length of stay in terms. The risk increases with age, but 35% of all hospitals and fewer problems with patient safety—so-called diagnoses of pancreatic cancer occur in people under adverse patient events. Hospitals that achieve good the age of 65—that is about 3,000 of the 8,500 diagnosed scores on patient experience also have higher staff retention each year. The split among men and women is reasonably rates, which also contribute to lower costs through even, with slightly more cases in women than in men. I lower staff turnover. Understanding the link between am not sure that that is clear, so that would be part of staff experience and patient experience is absolutely what we would request in a campaign. It would lead to essential in this debate. That is actually common sense: greater awareness and, hopefully, earlier referrals and when staff feel valued and respected, they are more better outcomes. likely to treat patients in the same way. My final request relates to the national cancer patient What makes for a good experience for cancer patients? experience data. Pancreatic Cancer UK paid for a separation Macmillan Cancer Support says that three issues are of data for pancreatic cancer patients—in fact, the consistently highlighted. The first is meaningful involvement Department of Health paid for that to be done once. in their care, not only for individual cancer patients, We would like pancreatic cancer patients to be routinely but for their families, too. The second is excellent separated out from all upper-gastrointestinal cancer communication, so the patient’s diagnosis, treatment patients as part of the system of getting such statistics. I options, risks and follow-up care are clearly and simply do not see why a charity or the Department should try explained. The third is properly co-ordinated care. When to do that as an extra thing. It should be part and parcel people are going through a desperately difficult time, of the routine, given the nature and impact of this the last thing that they want to face is a battle between dreadful, increasingly misunderstood cancer. all the different services. They want their hospital, primary and community services, social care and wider help—such as financial information and welfare and benefits advice— 10.34 am brought together in a seamless package that is built Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to around their needs and not the individual institutions. serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen, and I really That kind of whole person care is vital to all patients, want to congratulate the hon. Member for Hertsmere not only those with cancer, but if we can get it right for (Mr Clappison) on securing this important debate. cancer patients, I think that we can get it right for all patients, too. I will start with why this issue is so important. At the risk of stating the obvious, first and foremost, it is The previous Government made huge strides in crucial for patients and their families, and as the hon. improving cancer care through the work of the national Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, many of cancer plan and the cancer networks. There is still us—not only people of his age—are affected. Today, the further to go, particularly with earlier diagnosis, but father of one of my dearest and oldest friends is going major progress was made in starting to bring NHS care through yet another operation for cancer. I saw him on for cancer patients up to the standards in other countries. Saturday night. I shall spend today thinking about him The national cancer patient experience survey, which and all his family, and I hope that it goes well. was started under the previous Government, was absolutely We know that a good experience makes all patients integral to that. The latest results, from August this feel as though they have been supported and respected year, found that about 80% of cancer patients rate their as individuals, whereas a bad experience can make them care as good or excellent. However, there are warning feel, at best, as though their needs do not matter and, at signs that problems are building in the system, which worst, that their basic human dignity has been denied. could harm that progress. Cancer patients whom I speak to, such as those at the Waits for vital cancer tests are getting longer. The local Macmillan Cancer Support group, which I recently number of people waiting more than six weeks for joined in my constituency, constantly emphasise their diagnostic tests, including ultrasounds, colonoscopies experience of care and how they are treated by NHS and gastroscopies, has increased by 65% between July staff as absolutely critical at such a frightening time in 2010 and July 2013. The cancer networks that were so their lives. However, the importance of the patient important in improving the quality and co-ordination experience goes far beyond the personal value to individuals. of care have been abolished, with their work subsumed 279WH Cancer Patient Experience30 OCTOBER 2013 Cancer Patient Experience 280WH

[Liz Kendall] those indicators are generic. What plans does the CQC have to ensure that patient experience of individual into generic clinical networks, and many staff say that services, including cancer services, is assessed? Will the that risks losing their vital specialist and local expertise. chief inspector of hospitals work with the chief inspectors We have seen a reduction of 5,000 nursing posts since of social care and GPs to ensure that we join up our 2010, including in vital specialist services, which is thinking in that area? putting huge pressure on remaining staff. I will conclude on an important point relating to Many hon. Members have talked about the persistent what the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay said. long-term variations in the experience of cancer patients. We must ensure that we address patient experience The national cancer survey has consistently shown worse locally and on the ground, not just nationally. Although outcomes for patients with rarer cancers, for younger holding CCGs to account and the CQC’s monitoring of patients—an issue highlighted by the Teenage Cancer hospitals are important, they essentially happen after Trust—and for patients from ethnic minority communities, the event—after care has been delivered. We must ensure which is an issue particularly close to my heart as an that patient experience is at the heart of what all parts MP for the very diverse city of Leicester. There are also of the NHS and all staff do day in, day out. I have two continuing problems with ensuring that patients get the suggestions for how we can make that happen. financial information and benefits advice they need and First, we have to transform the use of what I call with the crucial issue of end-of-life care. real-time patient feedback—not annual surveys or annual I am sure hon. Members saw the excellent report monitoring, but day in, day out use of patient feedback. published earlier this week by Macmillan Cancer Support, There are brilliant services such as Patient Opinion, which found that 73% of people with cancer would which allows patients to tell their story, positive or prefer to die at home but that less than a third are able negative, online, by phone or in writing. Hospitals, GPs to do so. Therefore, some 36,000 cancer patients died in and social care providers that register with Patient hospital when they would have preferred to die at home. Opinion can see what people are saying about them on That is not only terrible for cancer patients and their that same day. I know because I used the service when I families at an awful and difficult time; it does not had to make an unfortunate visit to an urgent care deliver best value for taxpayers’ money either. Research centre this time last year. Patient Opinion is a powerful by the national end-of-life care programme suggests tool for individual patients to tell their story, for members that there are potential net savings of some £950 for of the public to see what others are saying about their every person who dies in the community, rather than in service and for staff to hear first-hand, immediately a hospital, because of the reduced use of hospital beds. what they can do to improve the quality of care. What The Minister, whom I welcome to her post, may not plans do the Government have to encourage greater use be aware of this because she was not in her post at the of such services across the NHS and social care? time, but in the cross-party talks on Andrew Dilnot’s Secondly, the education and training of NHS staff is recommendations for funding social care, the shadow important. Last week, I visited the university of Worcester, Health Secretary and I proposed removing the means which is doing pioneering work. Patients and users help test for end-of-life social care to help make choice a to interview student nurses who apply for the course to reality at that difficult time. I hope that the Minister will ensure that they have the right values and attitude. be able to update us on the Government’s actions. Patients and users help to develop the curriculum used I will now focus on what we need to do to put cancer to train student nurses and other health professionals to patient experience much more fundamentally at the ensure that it covers the issues that really matter to heart of the NHS. I understand that the national cancer patients. Patients and users are also an integral part of patient experience survey is currently under review. Will the course, and they help with the training process. the Minister commit to that survey continuing to happen In Leicester, we also have a groundbreaking project during each year of the coalition? Those data are vital, between De Montfort university and Macmillan Cancer but we must use them effectively. A key point highlighted Support in which students training to be nurses, NHS by the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), managers or pharmacists volunteer for Macmillan. Those who chairs the all-party group on cancer, is that we students get vital skills and experience of communicating must ensure that each clinical commissioning group is with cancer patients. How will the Government ensure properly held to account for improving patient experience, that such work to improve the skills, knowledge, experience including for cancer patients. and training of staff starts when they begin working for Currently, there are generic indicators on patient health services? What vital work is being done to hold experience of hospital care and the friends and family CCGs to account and to monitor the quality of care in test for acute inpatient care and A and E, but is NHS hospitals? England developing more specific patient experience indicators for individual hospital services, including Albert Owen (in the Chair): I also congratulate the cancer, and, across the whole patient pathway, for primary Minister and welcome her to her new role. and community services, too? As hon. Members will know, last week, the Care 10.47 am Quality Commission published results of its new hospital inspection scheme, which is based on 150 indicators. I The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health welcome and pay tribute to the excellent work of the (Jane Ellison): Thank you, Mr Owen. It is a pleasure to chief inspector of hospitals, Professor Sir Mike Richards, serve under your chairmanship. who is the former national clinical director for cancer, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere but only two of the 150 indicators in the CQC’s new (Mr Clappison) on securing this debate. I am conscious methodology currently address patient experience. Again, that I am still relatively new to my post—I am in my 281WH Cancer Patient Experience30 OCTOBER 2013 Cancer Patient Experience 282WH fourth week—so if I am unable to respond in total personally put on the patient experience. We have never detail to some of the points raised, I will undertake to given such high-profile attention to talking about the get back to the relevant hon. Members. patient experience and patient care. I hope that gives This has been a very good debate. Many extremely some reassurance, but I will talk later about some constructive points have been made, and there have specifics. been some thoughtful contributions. Members, some of In the same vein, let me pick up some of the shadow whom have not been able to stay for the end, have Minister’s interesting points. I was interested in some of brought great insight and experience to the topic. the initiatives she mentioned. Again, they all feed into Cancer patient experience is close to our hearts, and I the idea of putting patient care and the patient experience echo the tributes paid to NHS staff and, particularly, to absolutely at the heart of things. I certainly undertake the charities that campaign in this area. We have all to look at some of the specific local examples she taken part in moonwalks and Macmillan Cancer Support highlighted. fundraisers or gone round at the back of the race for life To drive a good patient experience, we must listen to year after year talking to cancer survivors and people patients’ voices. In December 2010, the Government running or walking with the names of loved ones on published the first national cancer patient experience their chests, and we know what amazing work those survey report. The survey was the first cancer patient charities do, particularly on highlighting patient experience. survey to take place for six years, the first to involve In England, each year more than 250,000 people patients with all types of cancer and the first national receive a cancer diagnosis. As we have heard this morning, survey explicitly to use the word “cancer”. The survey being diagnosed with cancer can be a traumatic experience. revealed that, while there had been substantial improvements Like the shadow Minister, a dear friend of mine has just in the patient experience since 2000, there are still had that experience, so I am going on that journey with unacceptable variations in the quality of care people my friend to understand how she will be cared for and receive, as hon. Members have highlighted. treated as she goes through what I hope will be a full To drive improvement locally, reports were produced recovery. for individual trusts. This is where the transparency We know that receiving personal care that is responsive agenda the Government set such store by is really to people’s needs is vital. The Government have committed important. The data are openly available and published, to making England a global leader in producing great and all of us—not just people in the NHS, but hon. cancer outcomes. We are making strides, but we know Members, local councillors and local government—can there is further to go. We are improving access to hold commissioners and providers to account, based treatments, including investing £750 million during this on that openly published data at local trust level. Parliament, and we are strongly committed to saving an Commissioners and providers can be directly challenged additional 5,000 lives by 2015. and incentivised to improve. Providers can benchmark their performance against each other’s. Quality Health, The cancer outcomes strategy remains at the core of which provided the survey, also visits poor-performing what we are doing and what we hold the NHS to trusts to discuss their results in detail. A number of account for in terms of delivering. However, if the NHS those discussions have led to really quick improvements is to deliver high-quality care, patients’ voices and in local outcomes, but there is always more to do. experiences are vital, and I could not agree more with what everyone has said about the end-to-end experience The cancer outcomes strategy, which we published in of care being important and a big part of recovery. January 2011, built on those results. We have acted to improve the patient experience at national level by My hon. Friend rightly asked that the NHS give implementing the cancer information prescriptions parity of esteem to the patient experience, alongside programme and expanding the Connected national patient safety and clinical effectiveness. I agree, and advanced communications skills programme, which is a through the mandate we have asked NHS England to bit of a mouthful, but which is essentially about supporting deliver continued improvement in patients’ experience thousands of clinicians to work more effectively with of care. Domain 4, which is one of the key areas of the patients, picking up the many issues highlighted by my NHS outcomes framework, is hon. Friend, the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim “Ensuring that people have a positive experience of care”. Shannon) and others regarding how seemingly small I reassure my hon. Friend that that is of equal importance issues and small aspects of communication actually to the other key areas. matter an awful lot at an intensely difficult time for patients and their families. Mr Clappison: I was remiss in not welcoming the Since 1 April this year, NHS England has been Minister to her post. I welcome her most warmly, and I responsible for delivering improvements in the cancer am sure she will do an excellent job. Will she take on patient experience. That is one reason why I cannot just board the fundamental plea made by Macmillan Cancer stand here and make particular commitments. Such Support and echoed in the debate that the patient debates are, however, useful because they help NHS experience is put at the heart of the inspection process England to know parliamentarians’ priorities in terms and of the assessment of different NHS organisations? of where it should focus some of its attention. Will she ensure that that is made a real priority? Building on the work of the 2010 and 2012 patient experience surveys, NHS England published its report Jane Ellison: Absolutely, and I will talk a little about on the 2013 survey at the end of August. It showed some of the ways in which that will be done, but I would improvements in many areas and some very positive make the point that the Secretary of State has made this experiences of aspects of care, including on privacy, an absolute priority. He could not have been clearer being treated with respect and being listened to. Overall, recently about the priority that the Government and he 88% of cancer patients reported their care had been 283WH Cancer Patient Experience30 OCTOBER 2013 Cancer Patient Experience 284WH

[Jane Ellison] other things that have been talked about today. Rather than include references in the mandate, we have included excellent or good, and there were some real highlights. important pledges in the NHS constitution, setting out As my hon. Friend highlighted, some of the percentages what patients have a right to expect. All NHS services in key areas were in the 80s and 90s, although we are have a duty under the constitution when carrying out obviously interested in the areas where we could do their functions, and we have a range of indicators to better. capture how well the NHS is performing in delivering It is clear that many trusts had acted on the findings dignified and personal care. between 2010 and 2013, and they are to be congratulated On the CQC inspection regime, I can reassure my on that. Many have reorganised their pathways and hon. Friend that the CQC has made a commitment to services, retrained staff and created further mechanisms listen and to take the experiences of people using services for patients. Cancer charities have been involved in very much to heart. The new inspection teams include further analysing the data to understand particular trained members of the public called “experts by aspects of care and particular groups of patients and to experience”. In addition to public listening events, that create new information for patients, where needed. Much will be an important way of putting patient experience of that has been touched on this morning. at the heart of inspections. We have also looked at some of the variations in care. A specific question was asked about including secondary The hon. Member for Strangford and others mentioned breast cancer in the survey. NHS England is trying to care plans. Over the past three years, more work has ensure the survey catches the needs of all patients and been done on them, but given that only 22% of patients looks across all cancers, but my hon. Friend’s point will were offered care plans, everyone would acknowledge have been taken. considerable improvement is still needed. I was asked about the future of the survey, including NHS England has convened a cancer patient experience by the shadow Minister. NHS England has confirmed it advisory group to get direct input on priorities for will be run in 2014. The organisation will then undertake service improvement. The group includes clinicians, a review of all the surveys it runs. The debate will have experts concerned with cancer care and, crucially, patients. highlighted to it the value that so many people place on The group’s first meeting has now taken place. It examined the survey and the important role it has played in the results of the 2013 survey, and actions have been driving improvement. I cannot say whether NHS England agreed. As a result, NHS Improving Quality will develop will continue it, but I will certainly vividly describe to a rapid-response programme to visit trusts with poor NHS England how strongly Members feel and what scores to discuss results and suggest improvements. I role they think the survey has had in driving change. hope that gives Members some assurance about the fact My hon. Friend’s last question was about using the that the survey does not just sit there; it is very much survey to improve cancer care, and I have alluded to the being acted on. ways in which we are trying to do that. In particular, I NHS England also wants to highlight high-performing give him the assurance that the patient experience, trusts and identify best practice. It will put that information putting the patient first and championing their care is into toolkits that other trusts can use to develop better absolutely at the heart of what all of us at the Department service in response to poor scores. NHS England is also of Health are doing, taking our lead from the Secretary encouraging the use of the Macmillan values-based of State. standard and other patient-led tools, which engage patients I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting the issue, and and staff in co-creating and measuring some of the I echo his words from the start of the debate. I, too, things that matter so much with regard to dignity and thank the NHS staff and charities that do such amazing respect. All organisations involved in delivering care are work in this area, and I hope hon. Members will continue urged to look at the survey and take it extremely seriously. to debate this important topic. Time is a little short, so I will try to answer some of the specific questions raised. First, we recognise that Albert Owen (in the Chair): I am grateful to the making relational care a priority is important. That Minister, the sponsor of the debate and all the Members includes communication, trusting nurses and all the who took part. 285WH 30 OCTOBER 2013 Jam and Similar Products (England) 286WH Regulations 2003 Jam and Similar Products (England) Devon—and I have a little list of people who want to Regulations 2003 talk to me about jam later today. I suspect that all that shows that the public are greatly interested. Sometimes, Departments want to slide regulations through, and 11 am those things do not always hit the public. We do not all Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I am concerned that this read the Parliament website and DEFRA press releases. debate may herald the end of the British breakfast as we I forgive the Minister that, but it is good that we are know it. Following a consultation, the Department for having the debate. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has ordered a The new regulations are part of the Government’s reduction in the permitted sugar level for jams, jellies red tape challenge to reduce the regulatory burden on and marmalades from 60% to 50%, and the removal of industry—particularly on small and medium-sized the UK national limit for reduced-sugar jam and of the businesses. They revise the Jam and Similar Products national provisions for curds and mincemeat. The focus (England) Regulations 2003, which I regard as completely of my opposition is the reduction of the permitted adequate. Those regulations state that the percentage of sugar levels for jams, jellies and marmalades, and the soluble solids content for jams, jellies and marmalades removal of the national provisions for curds and mincemeat, must be 60% unless the product is one with reduced which sounds their death knell. sugar, when it has a permitted percentage of between Reducing permitted sugar levels from 60% to 50% 25% and 50%. would in time destroy the characteristic quality of British There will be encouragement to make more reduced jams, jellies and marmalades, and could mislead consumers. sugar products, as they might be perceived as more We all know what we expect when we go to the supermarket: healthy. Some jam manufacturers have urged caution something of beautiful quality with beautiful colour, with the percentage. The Department’s impact assessment with a shelf life of about a year. Traditional jams use document for the new regulations cited a potential for cooked fruit, without additives—that is important: the increasing the risk of spoilage. Currently, reduced-sugar quality of those preserves is determined by the proportions products, with a percentage of 25% to 50%, may contain of sugar, fruit, pectin and acid. If the total sugar chemical additives to ensure that they have a good shelf percentage is reduced, the characteristic gel in the life, which sugar will give naturally. Potassium sorbate consistency of jams, jellies and marmalades will be lost, or E202 will be added if we reduce the level of sugar and the result will be a homogenised, spreadable sludge, in jam. bearing no resemblance to the product we know and At a time when public attention is being directed to enjoy in England as British jam. the content of food, it seems inadvisable to encourage Scientists who worked at Long Ashton agricultural the unnecessary production of food items with additives research station at the university of Bristol in the 1920s and artificial flavours. With a 60% sugar content, the examined the shelf life of jam and other, similar products. colours of sweet preserves are bright and the fruit is The recommendation that they made was for a minimum fantastic. A lower percentage produces products with a sugar content of 60%, regardless of the type of fruit darker, muddier colour, which may affect consumer used in the recipe. That ensured a good shelf life of at confidence in a well known British product. In addition, least a year. The 60% level has its origin not in Brussels, if the consistency lacks the characteristic gel, and is as many people think, but in Bristol. more like that of a fruit spread or fruit butter, consumer Of course, many people are slightly squeamish about confidence in the properties of jam and other products the sort of thing that my grandmother would do—opening may be lost. I urge the Minister to consider calling jam that had not been used for a couple of months and things fruit spread or fruit butter, as happens on the scooping the top off, where it had fermented slightly. continent. Many people fear greatly, for food safety reasons, that The 50% permitted sugar level will be lower than the they should not eat jam when there is a bit of fluff on 55% minimum adopted by France and Germany; something the top, but it is important to understand that jam has a similar is done in America as well. The jams produced shelf life of a year. by those countries have always been different from ours. Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I am I spent some of my summer in France, and what they grateful to the hon. Lady for bringing this important call jam is completely different from what we expect to and interesting subject to the House. Can she put the pluck from the shelves in shops, farm stores and recommendation into context? Many recommendations, supermarkets. good and bad, make their way into the annals of Historically, continental jams and similar products Brussels. Not all of them come out of the sausage have been made using completely different methods. machine as legislation. What stage has the idea reached, The countries I mentioned do not make products whose and does the hon. Lady’s presence here today, outlining consistency has the characteristic British gel; to make its daftness, mean that there is scope to stop it in its their jams, fruit and sugar are cooked together or tracks? soaked and then cooked together. They are referred to as soft set products, and have a loose, almost pouring Tessa Munt: I rather hope so. That is a question that consistency. the Minister will be able to answer. I understand that he British jams are traditionally made in two stages. The signed the order last week, but that the statutory instrument fruit is cooked, either with or without water, to extract has not been put before Parliament. I hope we can stop any acid and pectin. Sugar is added to the cooked it dead in its tracks. mixture, dissolved and then boiled to a setting point. As well as today’s debate, there has been an amazing Marmalades are made by first cooking the citrus fruit amount of publicity, including my debates with the in water and then dissolving sugar into the cooked Minister this morning on Radio Somerset and Radio mixture and boiling it to a set. Jellies are made by 287WH Jam and Similar Products (England) 30 OCTOBER 2013 Jam and Similar Products (England) 288WH Regulations 2003 Regulations 2003 [Tessa Munt] British, with their origins firmly established for centuries; they are not part of the culinary culture of other cooking fruit in water and straining the cooked mixture European Union member states. through a jelly bag. The residual juice is boiled with Curds and mincemeat are made using a small list of sugar to a setting point. We in Britain love our jams, specific ingredients. Mincemeat has a history traceable jellies and marmalades to be traditionally made, to back to the late 17th century, in the period following produce a natural set. Cromwell’s two-year ban on Christmas festivities. After The consumer was clearly protected by the Jam and his death, and once Christmas had been reinstated as Similar Products (England) Regulations 2003. A product a festival, the mincemeat that we know today was labelled as jam had 60% sugar and consequently had introduced—a product with a quantity of vine fruits, the traditional characteristics I have described. Reduced- sugar, citrus peel, suet or equivalent fat, and optional sugar jams had to be labelled as such, which alerted the alcohol. consumer to the fact that they were a different product. Fruit curds, lemon curd in particular, became well There is no appetite for a reduction among some of known in England in the late 1800s. Recipes with eggs, the high quality manufacturers in England, Scotland butter, sugar and fruit were called transparent puddings; and Wales—notably Wilkin and Sons of Tiptree, Mackays, the method of storing them in jars became popular in and Wendy Brandon Handmade Preserves; I note that the 19th century. Fruit curds are an emulsion of edible the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel), who has fat, sugar, whole egg or egg yolks—or both—and fruit. Tiptree in her constituency, is present for the debate. The 2003 regulations specify percentages of ingredients The regulations have been driven by a small number of for the quantity of fat and eggs for every 1,000 grams of small producers to increase their sales of apple-based the finished product. The quantity of fruit is sufficient spreads, which they want to label as jam. They are to characterise the finished product. nothing like traditional British jam—I have tasted them. For mincemeat, the 2003 regulations specify the quantity Given the high acid and pectin properties in cooking of vine fruit, suet and citrus peel used for every 1,000 grams. apples, it is possible to set the product with less sugar, Curds and mincemeat have a soluble dry matter of 65%, but that does not apply to all fruits, as the pectin and unless they are reduced-sugar products. Any product acid content varies between them. with less than 65% is labelled as a “low sugar substitute”. As a member of the women’s institute of Mark in Deregulation would stimulate the introduction of products Somerset, I am curious to know how the National materially different from the existing definitions of curds Federation of Women’s Institutes responded to the and mincemeat. There is no case for deregulating curds regulations. Historically, the WI is the best known and mincemeat. organisation to give instruction—to its members and I have some particular questions for the Minister. the wider public—on the characteristics of sweet preserves. The 2003 regulations were based on scientific research. Its publication “On With The Show” lists the criteria Is the Minister aware of any published research that for judging those preserves. supports the new regulations? For producers, there is an I understand that out of the 132 organisations consulted attraction in using the words “jam”, “marmalade”, by DEFRA, the National Federation of Women’s Institutes “jelly”, “mincemeat” and “curd”—how can DEFRA be was one of a handful claiming to have received a confident that consumers will not be misled when lower- consultation letter. Sadly, I understand that it declined sugar fruit spreads are labelled as jam, despite being to respond, but the WI will be left with its rules to very different from traditional jams? consider. How will the new products be judged in I understand that the Minister has signed the proposals, competitions and how will preservation judges’ training but the statutory instrument has yet to be laid before courses be affected? I can only assume that the WI will Parliament. How can we keep the jam regulations leave its rules unchanged, as preserves with the traditional unchanged? Now that the matter has received additional characteristics are the only naturally produced ones public interest and scrutiny, what should members of with a long shelf life. the public do to change the Department’s mind? What criteria will the Secretary of State or the Minister be Deregulation of the provisions for curds and mincemeat, using to review the regulations? as listed in the 2003 regulations, would stimulate the creation of other products labelled as curds and mincemeat. If we really want to have continental jam, we can go In 2003, DEFRA asked the industry whether it wished to the continent, or we can buy it. So far, I have resisted to retain the national rules for curds and mincemeat, the temptation to use all the amazing jokes that have and the overwhelming response was yes. At the time, the come out— industry felt that there was a need to set minimum rules to ensure the quality of the products and to prevent Mr Ellwood: Go on! poor quality or inferior substitutes. The 2003 regulations included a minimum sugar content of 65% for curds Tessa Munt: Perhaps I shall. and mincemeat. Those rules were notified to the European Commission, as required, and there were no objections Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): I congratulate the hon. to the UK’s setting rules in that area. Curds and mincemeat Lady on securing this important debate. She has already have continued to be UK-specific products. highlighted the fact that the world’s greatest jams and In spite of that, DEFRA’s impact assessment for the marmalades are made in my constituency, in Tiptree. new regulations suggested that the deregulation of curds There is no doubt that we have the best jams in the and mincemeat would cut red tape and free the industry world, and we export a lot of them. Does she not agree to innovate and/or reformulate, provided that the customer that the Government should be working with producers was not being misled. Curds and mincemeat are uniquely with a great international reputation for exporting their 289WH Jam and Similar Products (England) 30 OCTOBER 2013 Jam and Similar Products (England) 290WH Regulations 2003 Regulations 2003 jams throughout the world, so that we can increase our Organisations such as the Food Processors Association, profile and market share internationally and outcompete an organisation that incorporates the United Kingdom Europe? Sweet Spreads Association and represents many in the jam industry, were keen for the Government to amend Tessa Munt: I could not agree more. I do not agree the regulations to ensure that the UK was on a more with the idea that the new proposals will encourage level footing with other major EU jam manufacturing exports; we will end up exporting, and importing, more countries, such as France and Germany. gloop, as opposed to having something that we all know well—British jam, jelly, marmalade, curds and mincemeat Tessa Munt: The clue is in the title, the Sweet Spreads are completely classic British products. If we want to Association, and that is not jam. The Minister should export them, we need to help people to do so, but we come cooking with me—I do not know what else I can need to keep the quality and the standard of what we do, but suggest a master class in jam cookery in DEFRA. see on the British breakfast table. Let us have a go. Frankly, if people want to call something As I was about to say, the Minister seems to have a fruit or sweet spread, they may, but they should not be found himself in a sticky situation, or in a bit of a jam. calling that stuff jam. Jam today, please, but I would like to see jam tomorrow as well. George Eustice: All right. Since that original request, which was for a minimum permitted sugar level of 55%, Albert Owen (in the Chair): I call the Minister to others have requested that we consider lowering the entertain us by spreading the DEFRA word. minimum permitted level even further, to 50%, which would remove the so-called no man’s land that currently 11.14 am exists between sweet spread products, which are supposed to be below 50%, and jam products, which are supposed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for to be 60% or above. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): Thank you, Mr Owen. I also thank the hon. Member After considering all the responses, we decided to for Wells (Tessa Munt) for securing the debate, which reduce the minimum permitted sugar level for jam from has indeed gathered a bit of interest. The hon. Lady 60% to 50%, but to retain the national provisions for and I had a dry run of this discussion in the media this fruit curds and mincemeat—an issue that the hon. Lady morning. I can understand her concerns about some raised later in her speech. That will all be subject to the elements of the proposed changes, but I feel that there is necessary clearances. The reduction in the minimum a degree of role reversal—as a Conservative who is permitted sugar level to 50%, however, delivers the sceptical about having the EU telling us what to do, I greatest flexibility to the industry as a whole, in a way am all up for loosening regulations and letting markets that will not be detrimental to those who are in compliance decide, so to hear a Lib Dem taking such a strident with the existing regulations and can continue to make position on the issue was surprising. their jam as they do now. I come from a family involved in fruit farming. The The hon. Lady has expressed concerns about the jam industry is itself important, but having it as an possible impact on British jam, but I believe in the outlet, a market, for the fruit industry is also important. market—the market will dictate what does and does not One of the things that I learned, to my cost, while trying sell. I mentioned earlier that my own family’s farm to grow strawberries is that a lot of things can go wrong business produces small quantities of jam for sale through in the fruit industry, whether bad weather, bruising of the farm shop. I took the liberty of talking last night to fruit or pallets of fruit tipping over, so having the jam my mother, who is in charge of making the jams. She industry market for some of the damaged fruit is very said that there has been a trend among consumers over important. I ought to let the House know that my the past 10 to 15 years to seek out products with lower family’s business, Trevaskis Farm, makes jam for sale in sugar levels. They want products with more fruit and small quantities through the farm shop. I have a little less sugar. We should not resist that, if there is a market knowledge of the area through that. demand for such products. They do not have to be the gunge or dreadful products that the hon. Lady mentioned To provide the context, the proposed changes to the —I assure her that the products sold in our farm shop regulations are part of DEFRA’s contribution to the are very good. Government’s red tape challenge initiative. The regulations were one of a number that were identified under the food and hospitality theme that could benefit from Tessa Munt: I have been contacted by diabetics and improvement and where potential savings could be delivered others who require products with a reduced sugar level to businesses. The jam regulations were identified as an and that is fine, but they are always accurately labelled area in which we could consider changes that might on supermarket shelves and in farm shops as reduced-sugar provide businesses with greater flexibility and less restrictive jam. People know what they are buying. But if everything rules. with a minimum sugar level of 50% and above can be One impetus behind the change was a request by called jam, there will be utter confusion about what is some in the industry for the UK to consider taking up really jam and what is a fruit spread or whatever. an optional derogation in the EU jam directive that permits—but, crucially, does not require—a sugar level George Eustice: I understand that. The sugar content lower than 60% to be set, which is something that a of a fruit spread is supposed to be below 50%, so we are number of other member states have already done. The removing that no man’s land between 50% and 60% and derogation allows member states to set a lower minimum allowing products with a sugar content of below 60% sugar level for jam and similar products. but above 50% to be labelled as jam. 291WH Jam and Similar Products (England) 30 OCTOBER 2013 Jam and Similar Products (England) 292WH Regulations 2003 Regulations 2003 [George Eustice] product must have 60% sugar will carry on with that. Nothing in the change will affect that. If my hon. My hon. Friend pointed out that the 60:40 sugar-to-fruit Friend is right and brands with a lower sugar content ratio was recommended following research at the Long will have an inferior product and if customers conclude Ashton research station in Bristol in the 1920s. That that, as she suggested, they taste like mud, they will not was a long time ago and since then there have been buy it again. The market for that product will be small. technical advances and recipe experimentation. In the In a free market economy, we should have a light-touch last few years, our market has included fruit spreads approach to regulation, and that has come out of the and jam with a sugar level of less than 60% with no Government’s red-tape challenge. The market must decide. increased spoilage reported. The reduction of the minimum If my hon. Friend is right, the market for such products requirement to 50% removes the current gap for products will be small. that fall into the 50% to 59% category. The flexibility Our changes will provide jam businesses with increased delivered by the change will help to ensure that British flexibility. We are keen to help small businesses that are jam manufacturers remain competitive because they trying to break into the market, and some exciting new will have the option to market their jam products with a products are coming on to the market based on the higher fruit content on a level playing field with other unique British Bramley apple. Jams made from it set member states. more easily because of its high pectin content and do It is worth reiterating that we are talking about a not need quite as much sugar. My hon. Friend said that minimum permitted sugar level. That does not mean the market for such products is small, but an internet that existing manufacturers must work to the new minimum. search showed quite a number of products using Bramley apples as part of a mixed jam, such as Bramley and Mr Ellwood: I congratulate the Minister on his position. blackcurrant and Bramley and blackberry. There are I do not know whether the Prime Minister had the exciting prospects for them, and there is nothing more foresight to appoint him knowing that this question British than the Bramley apply. We are almost unique in about jam was coming his way. He seems perfectly Europe in having specialist culinary apples rather than placed to take the matter forward. If the producers of just generic apples. This is a good potential market for “Celebrity Masterchef” or the “Great British Bake Off” our excellent Bramley apples. are watching, there may be some invitations coming The regulations will be improved in respect of reduced- through to pursue it further. sugar jams. Since 2006, when new regulations on nutrition The Minister said that manufacturers, wherever they and health claims were introduced, there has been an are based, in Dorset as well as other places around overlap with the 2003 regulations that specify that a Britain, may continue to do what they are doing now. reduced-sugar jam must have a sugar content of between Will he confirm that no one in the industry will be 25% and 50%. In contrast, the nutrition and health affected by the prospect of a change in the regulations claims rules require all products labelled “reduced sugar” and that they may continue to do what they are doing to have at least a 30% energy reduction compared with a now? standard product. To sort out this discrepancy, we are doing away with the specific rules for reduced-sugar George Eustice: That is the case because these are jams so that they will need to comply only with the minimum not maximum requirements. If there were a same rules as all other foods. That will provide improved maximum requirement requiring all jams to have 50% clarity for the industry and consumers, and respondents sugar we would be having a totally different discussion. to our consultation agreed it would be much simpler to We are discussing minimum requirements and giving work with one set of rules in this area. the industry flexibility. Those who want to develop We consulted on the proposed changes earlier in 2013 products with a lower sugar level that they can market and received some useful contributions. One option in Europe will be able to do so, and traditional jam that provoked strong opinions was in response to whether manufacturers who want to retain a 60% level, are the UK’s national provisions for fruit curds and resistant to any change and do not accept that there mincemeat—the sort in mince pies—were still useful or have been changes in techniques or recipes may continue whether they could be removed. I can reassure my hon. as at present and market their products as traditional Friend, who highlighted many concerns, that although jam with a premium in the market. she may not agree with our proposals to reduce the minimum sugar content of jam, we have acted on the Tessa Munt: If the minimum level is set at 50%, all the evidence put to the Department and we will not change organisations that are making jam with less than 60% the regulations on fruit curds or mincemeat. sugar will be entitled under the regulations to call their The main justifications cited were that curd and products “jam”, not “reduced-sugar jam” or whatever mincemeat standards help to maintain the production else they are attempting to make. We need that clarity of these uniquely British products whose origins are for the British public’s attachment to jam and what it firmly established and go back centuries. They are not means. I have bought stuff from supermarket shelves part of other member states’ culinary culture and UK that is like mud—it has lost its colour, it is not the right producers manufacture them to traditional recipes. The texture and it is a completely different product. All current rules reflect those practices. those products will be entitled to be called jam. The standards provide an important yardstick and their removal could result in a reduction in quality and George Eustice: I do not think it is in any company’s could stimulate the introduction of products that are interest to market products that, to use my hon. Friend’s materially different from our current traditional curds words, taste like mud. We must let the market decide. and mincemeat products. So, as a direct result of the Makers of brands who passionately believe that a quality cogent arguments put forward in the consultation process, 293WH Jam and Similar Products (England) 30 OCTOBER 2013 294WH Regulations 2003 including a response from my hon. Friend’s constituent, Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road Users) Mrs Lloyd, we will retain unchanged the national provisions for fruit curds and mincemeat. That decision is positive and demonstrates the benefit of consultation to help to [MR JIM HOOD in the Chair] ensure that the final policy decision is fit for purpose. 2.30 pm Mr Ellwood: At the heart of the matter is a description of what is on the shelf so that people can recognise the Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): It is a sugar content and whether it is really British jam or great honour to introduce this debate under your from elsewhere with a different content. Will the Minister chairmanship, Mr Hood, and I am grateful to colleagues consider a jam kitemark or indication so that people for coming along today. can recognise true jam as defined at present and the In June this year, at the request of a number of my different spreads that we may see more of from the constituents, I attended a reception, here in Parliament, continent? for the “Safe and Sound” campaign run by Guide Dogs. It was there that I was alerted to the dangers faced by George Eustice: As I said, I am a great believer in the blind and partially sighted people from silent electric market. Individual jam manufacturers who pride themselves cars. The development of electric and hybrid vehicles is on their brand and who passionately believe that jam very much welcome across the country; they reduce the must have 60% sugar to be good will be able to market cost to motorists who buy them, and they are important their product as a niche, specialist product. If there is for our greener environment. I have to say, parochially, no market for products with less than 60% sugar, it will that their success is particularly important to the economy not develop. It is for the industry voluntarily to come of my region, the north-east, where Nissan in Sunderland together if they want to and jointly market traditional has invested more than £400 million in the development jams. I welcome this important debate, which has provided of the Leaf electric vehicle. In addition, the Government exactly the detailed scrutiny that the House should have pledged more than £800 million in subsidies for undertake. the ultra-low emission market. However, the downside to such vehicles is that they 11.30 am are so quiet that they pose a danger to members of the Sitting suspended. public, and particularly the elderly, the blind and the partially sighted, all of whom rely on hearing sound to judge when it is safe to cross the road. Guide Dogs “Silent but Deadly” report, which is an excellent report that I am sure everyone here today has read, states: “If you can’t see or hear a vehicle approaching, how do you ‘stop, look and listen’ to stay safe?” Statistics and research show that electric cars pose a greater threat to vulnerable road users than average vehicles. Research conducted by the University of California showed that some quiet vehicles travelling at low speeds cannot be heard until they are just one second away from impact with a pedestrian.

Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this enormously important debate. As well as this issue being important for those who suffer from hearing or sight impairment, would she also add to her list of those who are vulnerable from these otherwise very welcome vehicles, children and cyclists, who often rely on the noise of an approaching vehicle to alert them to the fact that something is behind them?

Mrs Glindon: I thank my right hon. Friend for that intervention. It is understated, or perhaps more widely taken for granted, that those people are also vulnerable—in fact, who among us are not? We must remember that being able to hear a vehicle also allows road users to judge the direction and speed of nearby traffic, which are crucial factors in deciding when it is safe to cross the road. For all pedestrians, 80% of our perception to danger is from our hearing.

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the hon. Lady on bringing this matter to the Chamber for our consideration. I suspect that every one of us in the House have had the opportunity to do a walk with the Guide Dogs association, where we put on a blindfold 295WH Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 30 OCTOBER 2013 Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 296WH Users) Users) [Jim Shannon] insurance premiums? If there have been more accidents, insurance premiums will be higher. That would be an and do a 2-mile walk through a very busy town. If ever incentive for makers of these cars to increase the noise an illustration was needed of how dangerous it is for a levels, so that in future, people will not get higher blind person, and how vulnerable they are, that is one insurance premiums if they buy these cars and are more way in which the message is brought home very quickly. likely to have an accident. Does she feel that when it comes to electric cars, there is an onus on the Government—perhaps the Minister will Mrs Glindon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that address this point today—to have some sort of method intervention. Unfortunately, I have not looked at insurance, of warning people, whatever that may be? I am not an and it has not come up in anything that I have looked expert, but blind people and vulnerable people need to at, but that seems to be a logical step to take and a be protected on roads and on footpaths. convincing argument, if not for insurers—well, even an insurer would have to pay out, so I hope that the Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. For future reference, Minister will say something about that. that sounded more like a speech than an intervention. I In 2010, Japan and the United States legislated for hope that any other intervention will be a lot shorter alert systems to be put into cars. Any such system is than that. cheap and simple to fit, and in the UK it would add only about £20 to the cost of a car. I am sure that Mrs Glindon: The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim everyone here would agree that that is a very small price Shannon) is right, and the tenet of our debate today is to pay for road safety. to ask the Government to do more. I have to confess In February this year, Members of the European that I have not yet done a walk around with a blindfold Parliament voted for an amendment to the EU regulation on, but I know people who have, and I do not think that on the sound level of motor vehicles to make acoustic any of us here who are blessed to have our sight can vehicle alerting systems mandatory for all quiet vehicles. imagine what it is like or what the dangers are until we That amendment is now being negotiated by the European have experienced what people with poor sight or no Commission, European Council and European Parliament. sight have to experience. The UN Economic Commission for Europe is developing Research by the TAS Partnership that was published a global technical regulation to specify standards for only last month shows that electric and hybrid vehicles AVAS around the world. It will be finalised next year were involved in 25% more collisions, causing injury to and will form the basis of the EU regulation, but pedestrians, between 2010 and 2012, than conventional unfortunately it seems that our Government are pushing vehicles. Moreover, between 2005 and 2008, crashes for only the voluntary introduction of AVAS and have involving quiet vehicles trebled. In 2011, research for reservations about making those systems mandatory. the Department for Transport found that electric and I ask the Minister to say why the Government think hybrid vehicles were far more difficult to detect than that making the systems mandatory will place a financial internal combustion engine vehicles at the lowest steady burden on car manufacturers when, as I said, the inclusion speed and, when pulling away from rest, at the lowest of such a system will add only £20 to the cost of a car. speed. EU research has shown that 93% of blind and Motor manufacturing companies are not averse to partially sighted people have experienced difficulties developing alert systems. Nissan, which I make no with electric vehicles. apology for mentioning again because it is a local car All those figures are very concerning. The fact that company and therefore I have been in contact with it, people have been injured in accidents with these vehicles has been researching and working with cognitive and is frightening enough, but as Guide Dogs has pointed acoustic psychologists to produce a practical system out, loss of confidence is also a massive problem for that is safe and environmentally friendly. Many technical blind and partially sighted people, and a bad experience, issues need to be considered with regard to the right as already described, could ultimately lead to someone sound in order to be heard without encroaching on the not wanting to leave their home, and therefore losing environment, but it is good to see that companies such their independence. Many blind and partially sighted as Nissan, which has been so successful, are being people are easily discouraged from independent mobility proactive in this field. if any element of their journey is adversely impacted by It was greatly concerning to learn that the Government outside factors. Guide Dogs estimates that about 180,000 do not accept the national and international evidence of blind and partially sighted people never leave home which I have spoken. It does show a link between silent alone. vehicles and a road safety threat to vulnerable road Research by the eVADER—electric vehicle alert for users. Does the Minister think that the opinions of detection and emergency response—project found that organisations such as Guide Dogs, the Automobile 91% of blind and partially sighed people want to see Association and the Royal Automobile Club are not quiet vehicles recognised as a problem, and with 81% of trustworthy on this matter? the general public, according to a survey by Orange, The next EU negotiation on the matter will be on wanting electric vehicles to emit a noise at a level 5 November, and an agreement must be reached by the equivalent to conventional vehicles, it is surely time for time of the next Transport Council in December in the Government to act. order to be finalised within this EU Parliament. There are already nearly 3,000 electric cars and more than Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I 133,000 hybrid vehicles on our roads. What commitment thank the hon. Lady for giving way and I welcome this will the Minister give to make AVAS in electric vehicles debate. Is she aware of any evidence that the situation mandatory, so that the many more motorists who will has resulted in people with electric cars getting higher be buying these cars and other road users, especially the 297WH Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 30 OCTOBER 2013 Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 298WH Users) Users) most vulnerable, can all be confident that they will be While I was walking along with my blindfold on, it able to travel safely in the future? I hope that he does became apparent to me that people have to make use of not agree with his predecessor—now the Minister for all their other senses to try to access the environment Crime Prevention—who, in a reply in July to a letter around them. Those include hearing and touch. I put that I had sent him, said: my hands up to not being aware that when someone “To date the number of electric and hybrid electric vehicles on presses the button at a pedestrian crossing, there is a the road is small compared to conventional vehicles and more little button underneath that twists round and tells data will need to be gathered over the next few years before we can them via touch that it is safe to cross if they cannot hear be certain of the best approach.” the beepers or see the green man. It was a real education As I said, the Government have already committed for me and something that drew me to the cause. more than £800 million. Car manufacturers are committing The Government are making some progress. First, we large sums. People are buying these cars. We shall see have a Minister with a track record on road safety. He many more of them on the roads. However, the numbers has done an enormous amount of work on road safety of people who are vulnerable—elderly people, children, during his parliamentary career. The Home Office is cyclists and the blind and visually impaired—are not listening on the issue of attacks on assistance dogs, and decreasing. Those people remain vulnerable, and I hope we are making some progress on that. What we are that the Minister will listen today to what all these discussing today is probably the last piece of the jigsaw—to people feel. try to help people in such circumstances to cope with Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): electric vehicles that are silent. I congratulate the hon. Lady on achieving the debate. I want to encourage my hon. Friend the Minister to She has made excellent points. It seems to me that now think the matter through thoroughly and properly and is the time to be taking action, before we have the very ensure that we get to the right point, because we need to rapid rise in the number of these vehicles, which I get the tone of the vehicle correct. If we get that tone gleefully anticipate. We have only to look at how fearful wrong, it could cause nuisance in residential areas, but our elderly residents are of people on bicycles riding it needs to be audible to those who need to hear it. I around, especially when they are on pavements. I go to hope that the Minister and his colleagues in Europe will meetings that are packed out with elderly people saying, give some thought to the decibel level. It is important to “Why don’t cyclists use their bells?” There is real fear get that correct, so that members of the public can hear out there, and I concur that this is a matter of urgency the vehicle coming without there being the antisocial now. effect of residents being woken at midnight. Mrs Glindon: The hon. Lady just got in before I Given how modern technology moves, I wonder whether concluded. This debate has attracted an awful of attention it is possible not to have the vehicle emitting a noise on outside Westminster. I thank Guide Dogs in particular a motorway, for example, where there will not be pedestrians, for the work that it has done, because it has spurred on and whether, once the vehicle reaches a particular speed people such as me and, I am sure, other MPs to bring level, that sound— up this issue. Again, it is a timely issue, and I hope that the Minister will be able to send us away today feeling Mrs Glindon: I do not profess to be a very technical that he has listened and that very soon we will see person, but I believe that the sound systems in these mandatory systems, so that people who are blind or vehicles operate differently from normal car engines, visually impaired and any other vulnerable road user whose sound can go throughout the whole of the will no longer have to fear that they have only one atmosphere. The sound goes forwards or backwards, so second to decide whether they should cross the road. it does not create the same noise pollution. That is what I am led to understand. 2.45 pm Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): Unfortunately, Mr Spencer: I am grateful for that intervention. That Mr Hood, I cannot stay for the whole debate, but I trust is exactly the sort of technology that we need to embrace. that you will allow me to contribute on this very important The sound needs to be projected forward to those issue. I hope that is in order. I congratulate the hon. people who are in danger. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) on calling this important debate. The issue is rapidly rising up the Mr Leech: I was going to make a point similar to that agenda as we approach the time when the EU will make made by the hon. Lady. Existing non-electric vehicles its decision. make quite a lot of noise. I do not think there is any I say that I am fortunate, although I do not know suggestion that the noise created by some sort of warning whether I am fortunate or not, to have taken part in the system on an electric vehicle would be any more obtrusive blindfold test in my constituency. I had the privilege of than noise from existing petrol and diesel engines. walking blindfolded with a guide dog. I found the experience half terrifying. To put one’s trust in a guide dog and walk along the high street with no vision is Mr Spencer: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that terrifying—it was for me as an individual. At the same intervention. It is important to establish those facts time, our ability to train these animals to assist people while the discussions are ongoing. who are partially or wholly unsighted was inspiring, My final point to the Minister is that we need to give and it should be celebrated. However, we have a some thought to retrospective action for silent vehicles responsibility to ensure not only that such people have already on the road. Should the law change? How do we access to these animals, but that they are safe in their encourage people in possession of a silent electric vehicle use of them on our high streets. to fit kit that will assist others to hear it coming? 299WH Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 30 OCTOBER 2013 Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 300WH Users) Users) [Mr Spencer] Awareness is growing in the USA and Japan of the dangers of silent cars. General Motors has been working I congratulate the hon. Lady again on securing this with the US National Federation of the Blind to develop important debate about an issue on which I hope we a safe level of sound to alert pedestrians. can make progress in the coming months. Mr Andrew Smith: My hon. Friend makes a persuasive 2.50 pm speech. Does he agree that an important argument from an industry perspective is that, although motor Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): It is a pleasure manufacturers want to be consulted fully and are ingenious to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Hood. I in bringing forward solutions to problems, there are congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North advantages in the certainty of knowing where they Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) on securing this important stand, rather than the uncertainty of not knowing when debate. a regulation is coming or whether it will be voluntary or Silent cars, be they electric or hybrid vehicles, are mandatory? becoming more and more popular and their number is increasing year on year. In 2006, more than 39,000 such Mr McKenzie: My right hon. Friend makes a good cars were sold, and the latest study shows a growth rate point. When changes have been made to vehicle regulations of about 5% by 2012. The reasons for increasing demand in the past, there has been an area of overlap or a time include the EU policy objectives of reaching the 2020 scale to allow manufacturers to bring in the change. The target for reducing carbon emissions and rising consumer safety aspects of this matter would override giving a awareness of climate change and the need to reduce the discretionary term to bring in changes. use of fossil fuels. Car manufacturers are well aware of buying trends and aim to meet the expectations of General Motors looked at a vibrating sensor that consumers who want the benefits of lower fuel consumption transmits sounds as vibrations, but its effectiveness is and emissions. dependent on the vehicle emitting a sound. Although sound is deemed a critical component for the increased We have all become accustomed to the traffic noise safety of silent cars for vulnerable pedestrians and that the internal combustion engine causes—be it petrol other road users, experts in the USA believe that such or diesel, two or four stroke—but in the modern age, it cars also need to indicate directions and show acceleration has been made quieter by means of a reduction in or deceleration. moving parts or engine compartment noise dampening. Some cars still make a lot of noise and some owners still In Europe, Guide Dogs has worked with Lotus like to hear the roar of an engine—if you were the lucky Engineering Ltd on developing a synthesised sound owner of a Ferrari, wouldn’t you? system that can be added to vehicles. The UK Government commissioned the Transport Research Laboratory to Electric and hybrid cars make little or no sound when conduct two items of work: first, assess whether there is running at low speeds and their use contributes to an increase in the incidence of accidents between silent quieter urban areas. However, not everyone benefits or quiet vehicles and pedestrians; and secondly, assess from that innovation, and others’needs must be considered. sound requirements through simulated trials. That group comprises people with visual and hearing impairments, children and older people and other road Not everyone supports adding sound. Opponents users, such as cyclists. They are all exposed to danger, claim that artificial sounds will do more to cause noise because they are no longer warned by audible noise pollution in the environment than aid pedestrians or from a vehicle engine and may be unable to react other road users. There needs to be a clear definition of accordingly. We are, after all, taught from an early age a recognisable sound and set requirements, to ensure to cross the road safely by looking and listening. that the sound conveys distance, speed, acceleration or deceleration and the size of the vehicle to the pedestrian Silent cars have created an unforeseen tension among or other road user. Safety must be paramount. car manufacturers, environmentalists and organisations representing pedestrians. Guide Dogs in the UK has The European Parliament voted in February 2013 to raised concerns about the implications of hybrid and require manufacturers to install an acoustic vehicle electric vehicles. As we heard from hon. Members, silent alerting system in hybrid-electric and electric vehicles. cars can limit the independence of blind and visually The legislation has been through the Parliament and is impaired people in everyday life. Guide dogs are equally awaiting First Reading at the EU Transport Council. vulnerable to the dangers of silent cars. Guide Dogs, which works hard to give blind and partially Children are exposed to the dangers of traffic daily. sighted people the confidence to get about, has intimated Most children involved in accidents are under 10 years its concerns. of age. The risks raised by the distractions of playing in Guide dogs are trained to sit at kerbs and await their the street do not need to be stressed, and they are owner’s assessment of when it is safe to cross the road. increased by the use of silent cars. The youngest children If the owner cannot detect a vehicle, they do not know have great difficulty in assessing the speed of an approaching whether it is safe to cross. One near-miss with a quiet vehicle, and silent cars increase the difficulty, because vehicle could severely hamper a person’s confidence, speed cannot be associated with engine noise. It is not and the lack of certainty resulting from the presence of only children and pedestrians with visual impairments quiet vehicles could be enough to deter people from who are affected—cyclists, who might not look behind leaving their home alone, for fear of being involved in a before making a manoeuvre, people listening to an iPod collision. Studies have shown that some electric vehicles or using mobile phones and older people are all at risk if cannot be heard until one second before impact with a they do not hear a vehicle approaching. pedestrian. 301WH Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 30 OCTOBER 2013 Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 302WH Users) Users) Guide Dogs “Safe and Sound” campaign for audibly their bell as they go round a corner, these silent electric detectible vehicles calls for the installation of artificial cars cannot be heard. We need to remember that disabled engine noises on all quiet vehicles to ensure their audibility people and people with limited mobility cannot necessarily for pedestrians. It also asks EU decision makers to turn their heads to see what is behind them. support the introduction of mandatory artificial engine We also need to remember that people with learning noises at the earliest opportunity and reject the addition disabilities, particularly those with autism, get used to of a mandatory pause switch to the regulation. We all certain sounds in the environment—they know what expect the Government to use their position on the they are looking for and are comfortable with certain Council of the European Union to ensure that quiet things. All of a sudden, an electric vehicle might completely vehicles in the UK are made safe for our pedestrians. unsettle everything they know and have learned. Because they do not necessarily have the immediate sense of 2.58 pm danger that they would get from another vehicle, they become incredibly vulnerable. Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I am I congratulate the hon. Member for North Tyneside grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the point about (Mrs Glindon) on securing this debate on an incredibly autism. Many autistic people will have acute hearing important issue, although, as she pointed out, it is not issues and the frequencies they are attuned to can be as simple as one would hope. very different from those who have what is euphemistically The growth of electric vehicles is good for not only called “normal hearing”. Her point is powerful. We our economy, but our environment, so we as MPs have to think about the unforeseen consequences of should welcome it. However, it is clear from the research, vehicles that to us might seem to represent an acceptable cited several times in the debate, that such vehicles bring reduction in noise. Those vehicles can discombobulate with them hidden and silent dangers to pedestrians and people with autism in their daily lives. cyclists. I have visited my local Guide Dogs branch, as well as Tracey Crouch: My hon. Friend is a great champion the Kent Association for the Blind, and I will speak of those with autism, and I congratulate him on all the later about the challenges they face from electric vehicles. work he has done on the issue. He is absolutely right It is important, though, that we remember other pedestrians that those of us without a learning or physical disability in this debate. I do a lot locally and nationally on the do not necessarily understand the challenges that those issues that affect elderly people. We have to recognise with disabilities or impairments face. While we all accept that they face particular challenges when they try to and recognise the need for the growth in more cross the road or stay connected within their local environmentally friendly cars, we have to remember the community. We welcome the growth of these silent other challenges that come with them. vehicles—the electric cars—but some of them are frightening our elderly population, especially those in Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): the early stages of dementia, who perhaps do not As one who represents a rural constituency where we understand some of the technological changes. We always are campaigning for more pedestrian crossings in various need to be aware of the issues that face them. villages, I should say that the increase in traffic makes Let us not forget children. When they are taught the this a serious matter. I hope that the Minister will take green cross code, they are told to stop, look and listen. on board the fact that the issue is acute in rural villages. We grow up remembering those three words. We would all confess that in our busy days, we often look, although Tracey Crouch: I thank my hon. Friend for that in London we might not even stop. But we almost intervention. My constituency is part-urban, part-rural, always listen. If we are not giving people the opportunity so I see the challenges from both sides: the densely to hear cars coming, we are automatically removing a populated areas with blind spots and corners and the key aspect of the green cross code. We need to pay close villages with high hedges and everything else. Electric attention to that. vehicles are bringing challenges in every part of our community. Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): I wonder whether, like I had the great privilege of attending the Kent Association me, my hon. Friend has walked between this building for the Blind forum in my constituency last Friday. I did and Portcullis House and had a Government vehicle so as chair of the Medway council disability partnership suddenly appear at her knee because she did not hear it board. I was asked to attend to answer various challenges, come through the archway. It is bad enough for people and the issue of electric vehicles was rightly raised with like us; it must be difficult for anyone who is elderly or me. Other issues were also raised, such as how difficult has a sight problem. We must think about those people, it can be to get from A to B, even with a guide dog, or because that situation is challenging. just with a stick. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood pointed out, being blind makes the other Tracey Crouch: I agree entirely. I have always thought senses more acute and it shows how much we rely on that the sudden appearance of those vehicles is a them. consequence of my voting record and that there is an I heard an incredibly horrific and distressing story intention from Ministers or Whips. about a blind lady who uses a guide dog and came My hon. Friend raised the point of there being areas across a lady with a pram on a path. The lady with the in all our communities with blind spots and blind pram refused to go into the road, because it would corners. Whereas someone can hear a normal car, a endanger her children, but the dog was trained not to lorry or even a cyclist who has the good sense to ring take the blind lady into the road. There was a stand-off. 303WH Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 30 OCTOBER 2013 Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 304WH Users) Users) [Tracey Crouch] parliamentary vote. I am not often inclined to support things that come out of Europe, but it has taken a lead As it happened, another pedestrian came along and on this issue on behalf of everybody across the EU, and challenged the lady with the pram, who refused to get it is important that we listen to what it is saying. We out of the way. The pedestrian took the blind lady and should do that for not just the visually impaired, but her dog into the road and around the lady with the older people and children. pram. It feels as if the UK is lagging behind, so I urge the When the hon. Member for North Tyneside was Minister to think carefully about the concerns raised talking earlier, I thought that if that good samaritan this afternoon. If he cannot reassure us today, I hope he had not come along and helped and if that lady had will go away and think, as a former road safety champion, gone into the road and an electric vehicle had been about the issues raised for many people and about how coming—the dog is there to help see and hear and be of we can protect the most vulnerable, including the groups assistance to the blind lady—there could have been a I have highlighted. tragic consequence. We need to get greater awareness out to wider society, not only of the issues around electric vehicles, but of the issues around the partially 3.11 pm sighted or blind. There are many issues in our local environments that challenge the vulnerable. Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I am pleased to appear under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I congratulate the Mr Buckland: To reinforce my hon. Friend’s point, I hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) on put on a blindfold and used a guide dog along a main securing this important and timely debate. road with the help of my local Guide Dogs branch. It Let me start by declaring an interest. Guide Dogs became immediately apparent to me that while the dog runs a centre at Forfar, in my constituency, and it is very is there to work and guide the person, it depends on the popular and well supported locally. Trainee guide dogs commands the user gives. The problems that she has are a common sight around the boroughs of Angus, mentioned became immediately apparent to me when I and many of the centre’s supporters have asked me to found out for myself what it must be like to be visually make their views known today. However, I must confess impaired and rely on a guide dog. that I also drive a hybrid car—one of the vehicles concerns have been raised about. Tracey Crouch: My hon. Friend makes another excellent As others have said, hybrid and especially electric point. Many members of the public are ignorant as to vehicles were pretty much a niche market until recently, what the guide dog is there for. The same lady from the but they are clearly beginning to take off, with many previous story told me about how she had got on a bus major car makers bringing out models. On my way into and asked the driver whether it was the one to Chatham. Parliament, I noted that Nissan has many posters around The bus driver said, “Can’t your dog tell you that?”, as Westminster tube station, including a prominent one if the dog could somehow read the number of the bus for the Leaf electric car—the hon. Lady will be pleased and communicate that in human language to the blind to see that. Anyone who has switched on a TV recently person. These are important issues about electric vehicles, cannot have avoided the massive advertising campaigns but the debate also gives us the opportunity to discuss BMW and Audi have mounted for new electric and the many challenges that partially sighted and blind hybrid vehicles. Charging stations are now appearing people face. in our cities and particularly at motorway service stations, I commend the Medway guide dog puppy trainers, which is a sure sign that the industry expects a sizeable who I had the privilege of meeting recently. They are take-up of such vehicles in the relatively near future. desperately trying to train the next generation of guide Guide Dogs is therefore right to raise concerns, and it dogs in all the challenges of their local community, and is a good time to look at this issue, as it is still developing. they are finding it incredibly difficult to train the pups What has happened is a classic example of the law of into understanding the challenges of silent vehicles. It unintended consequences. For environmental reasons, was a challenge for me to hold 18 leads of puppies and we all want to see the greater take-up of these vehicles, for them all to sit still and smile at the camera. It was a but we now find that they may pose a serious danger for pleasure to meet them, and I am pleased that the the blind or partially sighted. Guide Dogs cites a statistic trainers raised the issue with me. showing that quiet hybrid and electric vehicles are The studies show that losing sight equals losing 25% more likely than conventional vehicles to be involved confidence. A near miss is enough to make anybody in a collision with a pedestrian because pedestrians very wary, regardless of whether they are blind, partially might not hear them coming. Although the debate is sighted, elderly, a child or even able-bodied. The Health about the blind and partially sighted, other groups— Secretary recently spoke of the dangers of chronic particularly the elderly, youngsters and cyclists—are loneliness, and we do not want to isolate people further also affected. from their communities. People with a physical or learning The hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) mentioned disability already face social isolation, but if we put pedestrian crossings, but the danger may, paradoxically, extra dangers and challenges in their way by increasing be greater on roads in less busy areas where pedestrian the number of electric vehicles without providing any crossings have no audible signals. In the centre of London, means to protect them, another vulnerable group could people would cross the road only at a pedestrian end up experiencing chronic loneliness. crossing—at least if they had any sense—and most There are international comparisons out there. The crossings have audible signals. In relatively quiet areas—in US and Japan have taken strong action, and the hon. small villages or towns such as those in my constituency— Member for North Tyneside spoke about the European there may not even be a pedestrian crossing. Not only 305WH Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 30 OCTOBER 2013 Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 306WH Users) Users) may someone who has to cross the road not hear an others that we have not been slow in the past in insisting electric vehicle coming, but there will be nothing to tell on safety precautions for those in vehicles. Seat belts are the driver someone may be on the road. the perfect example, and air bags are another example. Both add to a vehicle’s cost, but they have been introduced because of the need to ensure the safety of people in Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) vehicles. Is it not right, when we develop new vehicles, (Lab): The hon. Gentleman is making a well-informed that we also look at the safety of people crossing the and comprehensive speech. I came to the debate because road when these vehicles are about, given that the large I was encouraged to do so by two constituents, who section of the population with disabilities may not be very much share his concerns and those that were able to hear them coming? It seems a small price to pay expressed earlier. Given the, happily, increasing number to ensure that those fellow citizens are safe when they of hearing dogs, does he agree that the problem we are cross the road. Will the Minister seriously consider how discussing goes beyond the important group he to ensure that not only those who travel in a car, but mentioned—blind people with guide dogs? People with other people on the roads, can be safer? hearing dogs are also puzzled by what is happening.

Mr Weir: The right hon. Gentleman makes an excellent 3.20 pm point. Members have pointed to other groups that are Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): It is a pleasure affected. Clearly, Guide Dogs has been leading on this to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I pay issue for its constituency of blind and partially sighted tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside people, and it has made much of the running, but he is (Mrs Glindon) for a highly informed and moving speech right that the problem is much wider. about the importance of the issue and how profoundly I took part in a previous Guide Dogs campaign, on it affects so many people’s lives. the issue of shared streets. At that point, the organisation If anyone had said a generation ago that there could was concerned by moves in many areas to remove be reasonably environmentally friendly cars that were defined kerbs and to allow the intermingling of vehicles also quiet, most of us would have leaped for joy and and pedestrians, the idea being that each would be more thought we had reached nirvana. However, today’s debate aware of the other and take more care. As part of that and the excellent work of Guide Dogs make it clear that campaign, Guide Dogs took me to a shared street, put a those vehicles present a significant problem to many very effective blindfold on me and asked me to cross the people. There is no excuse not to take action now. street. The only thing that would give any indication of the presence of a vehicle was noise. It was a terrifying We should pay tribute to Guide Dogs for its work on experience, although I knew it was temporary, and I many related campaigns. I recall one that it did about could take off my blindfold at the end. There were also talking buses, soon after I was elected as an MP. I was people there to make sure no one ran me over, although interested, especially since—to make an international if they had been from the opposition, they might not comparison—I worked in north Japan in the early have done so. The point, however, is that a blind or 1990s and talking buses were standard there, not just in partially sighted person in a shared street might not urban areas but in rural ones too. All the announcements even know they had gone on to the road, let alone hear were audible, and I can remember how helpful it was, as a vehicle coming. That is a very dangerous situation. I had gone to Japan unable to read any Japanese script. It would be terrifying for someone who could not see We have had some discussion of technical aspects of vehicles to know that they might also be unable to hear electric vehicles. I confess that I dropped physics at 14, some vehicles; effectively, they would have no way of and will not enter into anything resembling technical knowing whether those vehicles were on the road, and debate, but I remember that only 20 or 25 years ago they would take a major risk crossing any road, but that there were all sorts of arguments about the impossibility is what blind and partially sighted people may face of certain disability rights arrangements, such as putting every day. There is also a greater onus on drivers of ramps in at village halls. People who used wheelchairs, hybrid and electric vehicles to take care and to ensure or who were severely disabled, went on being hoiked up they see any people on the road. There is an issue for steps in a profoundly undignified way. That was wrong, such drivers, as well as for people crossing the road. and we would never want to go back to those days. When we speak of rights and independence for people Guide Dogs suggests that the way to deal with the who are blind or visually impaired, or who fall into any problem would be to fit vehicles with an acoustic vehicle of the many categories mentioned by colleagues in the alerting system, which ensures that all vehicles are audibly debate, we should recognise that it is not possible to be a detectable. That has been done in the USA and Japan, it little bit equal. We need to give serious consideration to has been investigated by a UN commission. That is an enabling such people to have the same sort of independent eminently sensible precaution, and if it is implemented lives that the rest of us enjoy. now, it will ensure that the vast majority of these A point was made earlier about how a near miss with vehicles are fitted with devices as they come on the a car could affect the confidence of people who are market, just as the industry takes off. blind or visually impaired. If I had been in such a The one thing that has been put against doing that is situation, I think I would find it difficult to go out alone the cost to motor manufacturers and the concern that it again; we cannot know when such things might happen. might impact on their productivity and their ability to International comparisons have been cited, and many produce vehicles. The hon. Lady cited a cost of about hon. Members have spoken eloquently, and I urge the £20, which does not seem particularly high, given the Government to act on this matter. It will have a meaningful cost of the vehicles. I should remind the Minister and effect on the lives of many people. 307WH Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 30 OCTOBER 2013 Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 308WH Users) Users) 3.24 pm social life, and to have opportunities for education and Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): training. The move that we have been debating is essential Thank you for calling me at short notice, Mr Hood. I for people like her and other vulnerable road users and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North urge the Minister to take what action he can. Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) on securing the debate and on her excellent opening speech. We have heard moving 3.28 pm speeches from other hon. Members, for which I am Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): It is grateful. a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood, I think it was last week—it is difficult to remember in this excellent and powerful debate. All credit is due when things have happened in this place—that I attended to my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside an event run by the Royal National Institute of Blind (Mrs Glindon) for securing it and for raising the issues People for young people, so that they could meet their in such a powerful way. Credit is also due to Guide MPs and be their own advocates on issues that they had Dogs and the other organisations that have put the issue encountered locally. A young constituent with visual of quiet vehicles and vulnerable road users on the and hearing impairments spent some time—and I was agenda for so many of us. It would be an important glad she did—telling me what lack of confidence meant debate whenever it took place, but it is particularly to her. She had reached the stage of not being confident timely that it is happening now, because further EU to go out or travel independently, and she explained negotiations on the regulation on the sound level of how that curtailed her life and how, with the help of the motor vehicles will happen next week before an agreement RNIB, she was getting over it. Several hon. Members on audio-alerting systems is reached at the next EU have talked about how incidents involving quiet vehicles Transport Council on 5 December. can affect confidence: we need to think about that. The debate is therefore not before time and is critical My young constituent told me she was learning to in the context of our future transport policy. It is use a cane and hoping to get a guide dog. My hon. important to put it on the record, as many hon. Members Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) have, that this debate is not anti-electric or hybrid cars. mentioned talking buses, and my constituent talked a lot Indeed, I am a fan of both. Two weeks ago, the Minister about different modes of transport and how she could and I both stressed the importance of such vehicles in be assisted. However, lack of confidence was her biggest future transport policy. Making low-carbon transport problem. It is vital to consider the needs of such vulnerable options accessible and affordable is a priority for us all. road users, because a limit is placed on a young life if I saw the importance of that when I helped to launch such a person does not have the confidence to go out. the new E-Car Club location in Poplar just last week. Action on quiet vehicles could help with that issue. As well as improving access, the Government must There is a single trunk road, the A57, in the area focus on establishing proper safety standards. where my constituent lives. There is a lot of development This does not happen often in a Westminster Hall going on and a new stadium is being built. There is also debate attended by many hon. Members from all parties, at present a complex set of road works and traffic but we have today had absolute unanimity. We heard systems. Cyclists and pedestrians share the pavement, interventions from my right hon. Friends the Members so it must be quite common for people to be pushed out for Oxford East (Mr Smith) and for Coatbridge, Chryston into the road, as has been mentioned this afternoon. I and Bellshill (Mr Clarke), my hon. Friend the Member have had many complaints about it. A traffic flow for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) and the hon. system has been installed, but it changes when the Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for Mid Dorset stadium is in use. Someone like my constituent, struggling and North Poole (Annette Brooke), for South Swindon to learn to use a cane or go out with a guide dog, must (Mr Buckland), for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) and for cope with such complications—pedestrians and cyclists Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski). We have on the pavement, a traffic flow system that is sometimes heard powerful speeches from my hon. Friends the one way and sometimes another, and two narrow lanes. Members for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie), for Clwyd That is tricky even for someone whose faculties are not South (Susan Elan Jones) and for Worsley and Eccles in any way impaired. There is nothing we can do about South (Barbara Keeley) and the hon. Members for that until the new road is built, which will take more Sherwood (Mr Spencer), for Chatham and Aylesford than a year, but that is the environment that my constituent (Tracey Crouch) and for Angus (Mr Weir). One way or is learning to deal with. another, they all said the same thing: we need action We have heard about people with a guide dog being and agreement on audio systems for electric and hybrid forced out into the road, and sometimes there will be cars and other quiet vehicles before they become mainstream complex traffic and pedestrian conditions in a locality, and not afterwards, when there has been an increase in as there are in my constituency at the moment. I should collisions. My worry, however, is that that is what the hate to think of my young constituent having a frightening Government’s policy is risking. I echo the points of my experience with an electric vehicle as she was learning to hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside about the become more independent and confident and get out importance of proper legislation for road safety and more. I am sure that if that happened it would push her will ask several questions of the Minister today. back into not using her cane or going out with her guide It has been established that electric and hybrid vehicles dog. She would not go out—which is the situation she can pose both a real and a perceived threat to the safety has been in for some time. Sometimes such factors come of vulnerable road users. The importance of vehicle together in an area, and they make things worse. noise in helping road users gauge proximity, direction I want to do anything that would help my young and speed of nearby traffic has been mentioned many constituent to become more independent and learn to times today. It is right that most attention has been be away from home. She wants to get out and have a focused on blind and partially sighted people, but the 309WH Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 30 OCTOBER 2013 Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 310WH Users) Users) range of affected people is wide and includes children, I am, however, unsure about the Government’s position. people with autism and older people. We are not even Parliamentary question after parliamentary question necessarily only talking about pedestrians; my right has been submitted, but the answers seem to be the hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East rightly mentioned same: the Government are considering moving their cyclists. If noise is eliminated from road vehicles, the negotiating position from a voluntary to a mandatory risk to vulnerable road users increases. approach or that they are considering how to implement the requirements in the UK. In reply to my recent Tracey Crouch: Another group has been pointed out parliamentary question, I was concerned to hear the to me on Twitter during the debate this afternoon. Minister say that the Government’s position had actually Someone tweeted me to say that they drive a Toyota moved backwards and that they were opposed to a Prius and are amazed that they have not yet knocked mandatory approach. I hope that he will confirm today over and killed somebody who has stumbled out into that that is not the case. the street when drunk. Walking around our town centres If the change is anything to do with alleged burdens on a Friday or Saturday evening, one can understand on businesses and on the motor industry, hon. Members, where they are coming from. including my right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East, have made it clear that the technology to fit such Richard Burden: The hon. Lady makes a good point. devices is available and is relatively cheap. What motor It is important that this debate does not encourage manufacturers need is certainty. They need to know people to wander around the roads while drunk, but we what is going to happen and when. For the Government need to consider such people. constantly to say that they are considering this or In certain manoeuvres, quiet vehicles can be twice as thinking about that or considering making such devices likely to be involved in collisions with pedestrians than voluntary is frankly no help to motor manufacturers. vehicles with conventional internal combustion engines. What is the intent behind the Government’s decision to Evidence from the US shows that quiet vehicles travelling wait until more electric and hybrid vehicles are on the at low speeds—we are principally discussing accidents road? Are the Government against mandatory AVAS at low speeds—cannot be heard until they are just one systems in principle—most hon. Members here today, second away from impact with a pedestrian. Recent myself included, would not welcome that, but it would research from the TAS Partnership revealed that such at least be a clear position to take issue with—or are vehicles were involved in 25% more collisions causing they waiting for something to happen before they take a injury to pedestrians in 2010 to 2012 compared with the position on the EU regulation and its mandatory nature? overall vehicle population. If it is the latter, what is the Minister waiting for? Many hon. Members also mentioned that it is not simply a question of accident statistics; we are also Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): discussing perceived danger and its impact on confidence. I apologise to the hon. Member for North Tyneside Recent EU research showed that 93% of blind and (Mrs Glindon) for not being here for the beginning of partially sighted people are already experiencing difficulties the debate, as I was detained elsewhere. I rise partly with electric vehicles. Personal testimonies collected because I believe that I am the only Member who is an from Guide Dogs reveal how vulnerable people can electric car driver. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that now feel less confident about leaving their homes. One the Government will have to decide whether existing guide dog owner said: electric cars should be retrofitted with some form of “Crossing roads safely is a huge part of my independent device, so that all road users, particularly the blind, mobility. Quiet vehicles take away this independence.” children and others identified in the debate, can be safe That point was made powerfully by the hon. Members in the way that he is advocating? for Sherwood and for Angus and by my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South. Another guide Richard Burden: I am not sure that the hon. and dog owner said: learned Gentleman is the only electric car driver, but I “the idea of stepping off the pavement into the path of something do not want to get into an argument about that. He as lethal as a silent car is truly frightening.” makes an important point about retrofitting, which Big improvements in road safety for people with sensory raises various issues. In my judgment, it is important to loss have been made over recent years, including making regulate quiet vehicles across the piece, not simply new crossings safer through the use of audible warnings, but ones. I say to the Minister that the longer we delay the failure to ensure that low-carbon vehicles are audible regulating or giving clarity to motor manufacturers would be real backwards step. In the light of the evidence about fitting devices, the greater the problem of retrofitting presented today from across the Chamber, will the further down the line. Will the Minister state clearly Minister confirm whether he accepts that quiet and what the Government are waiting for? electric vehicles pose both a real and a perceived threat Evidence from other countries has already shown to vulnerable road users? that quiet vehicles pose real dangers to vulnerable road In February 2013, the European Parliament voted on users, and that has led to action in Japan and the United an amendment to the EU regulation on the sound level States. Such evidence is patchy, but I hope that the of motor vehicles, which I am pleased to say that Government are not waiting for more accidents, with Labour MEPs supported. The amendment would make more people being killed or injured, to provide conclusive the fitting of an acoustic vehicle alerting system—AVAS— evidence before they will act. Surely, there is now enough mandatory in all electric and hybrid vehicles. Legislation evidence to support other European Union member mandating AVAS in all quiet vehicles has already been states and some British MEPs who are saying that now passed in the US and in Japan. A globally applicable is the time to do something. We have opportunities to UN technical specification will also be agreed in 2014. act in the negotiations next week and the discussions on 311WH Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 30 OCTOBER 2013 Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 312WH Users) Users) [Richard Burden] in the UK, I hope—come on to market. The Department for Transport is committed to promoting safety systems the regulation on 5 December. The UK Government and new technologies wherever there is evidence that should not hold back or delay that process or wait for they help to reduce injuries and there is clear justification. proof, the form of which is not clear; they should be at The European Commission has produced a proposal the forefront of promoting road safety and standing up to permit the fitting of added noise systems to electric for vulnerable road users, and they should respond to and hybrid vehicles, and separate steps are being taken today’s very clear call from Members on both sides of at international level to agree standards for added noise the Chamber. systems and to ensure that they are effective without being intrusive. Once complete, those agreements should 3.42 pm be incorporated into EU legislation. Factors to be discussed include the speed at which systems should be active, the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport type of noise and the sound levels, all of which have yet (Mr Robert Goodwill): It is a great pleasure to serve to be decided internationally. under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I congratulate the hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) on On mandatory sound alerts for ultra-low emission securing this debate on electric vehicles and vulnerable vehicles, our position is based on an assessment of the road users. I thank all hon. Members who have contributed risk that those vehicles pose to pedestrians. The Government to the debate—the hon. Member for Birmingham, sponsored research into that question, because research Northfield (Richard Burden) listed them, so I will not carried out in the United States had raised understandable do so—which has given me an early opportunity to concerns about the safety implications of quiet road review the issue. vehicles. I am responding to the debate, but my noble Friend Our research has suggested that there is no increased Baroness Kramer covers this area of competence in the pedestrian risk associated with electric or hybrid vehicles Department, and I have taken her advice. I hope hon. in the United Kingdom. The published report has shown Members will feel as free to lobby her as they have that although quieter vehicles are harder to hear lobbied me today.The Government take the issue seriously, approaching, as would be expected, the accident rates because the concerns are very real and affect many road for electric and hybrid vehicles are broadly similar to users daily. Ministers in my Department are united in those for conventional vehicles. The contradictory research our ambition to do what we can both to maintain and in the US had suggested that there may be a higher rate to improve safety standards. of accidents for electric and hybrid vehicles, but we should be cautious about applying those results to the The Government understand the real concerns of the UK, where infrastructure and driver behaviour are different. visually impaired and other vulnerable road users about the potential hazards of very quiet vehicles, including electric vehicles. Quiet vehicles are not new. I am not Barbara Keeley: We do not have many such vehicles, sure whether it was Mr Rolls or Mr Royce who bragged although their number is increasing, as Members have that only the clock could be heard when one of their said. Should not the caution be about not waiting till cars was running. Many of my generation will remember there have been lots of accidents? I just think that the milk floats making deliveries to houses. Indeed, I came Minister is approaching this the wrong way round. to Parliament today on a silent vehicle, a bicycle—panting was the only noise that could be heard—and there are Mr Goodwill: In introducing the debate, the hon. hundreds more bicycles than electric or hybrid cars on Member for North Tyneside said that the number of the streets of London. Anyone who ventures to cross accidents involving such vehicles had tripled, but that is the road because they can hear nothing coming will almost entirely attributable to the increased number of quickly find that they might be hit by one of the vehicles. The statistics show that although there is a bicycles ridden around London at breakneck speed. slightly higher number of accidents per 10,000 cars for I commend the Guide Dogs campaign, which has electric and hybrid vehicles, the increase is certainly not been effective in bringing concerns to the attention of a of the magnitude she mentioned. much wider audience. My predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), attended and Richard Burden: Is the Minister aware of the research spoke at its reception in June, and my officials have from the TAS Partnership indicating that quiet vehicles advised me that his speech was well received. were involved in 25% more collisions in which pedestrians The hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan were injured between 2010 and 2012 compared with the Jones) said that many Members had expressed their overall vehicle population? That surely cannot just be opinions, but opinions are not a sufficient basis for down to the increase in electric vehicles. Government action; we need firm evidence. Although the number of plug-in electric vehicles on our roads is Mr Goodwill: I accept that there is a slightly higher still relatively small, it is growing. By the end of September, level for such vehicles, but that may be down to other we had received more than 6,000 claims for plug-in car factors, such as the amount they are used. We certainly and van grants. More than 1,200 such claims were made need more research and data before that point can be in the last quarter, which makes it the best quarter to recognised as valid. date, being 25% higher than the previous best quarter. We are aware of recent research carried out by Guide The Government are committed to establishing the Dogs, which indicates a slight increase in the rate of UK as a leading market for ultra-low emission vehicles. pedestrian accidents involving electric and hybrid vehicles We expect the uptake to continue to grow significantly over the past three years, as has been said. Most of the as more and more vehicles—particularly those produced recent difference between the figures for conventional 313WH Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 30 OCTOBER 2013 Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 314WH Users) Users) vehicles and those with electric drives is due to a welcome, remain committed to finding a solution that continues but unexplained, drop in the rate of pedestrian accidents to help its members enjoy their use of the road. Equally, involving conventional vehicles. we must be wary of throwing the baby out with the The lack of robust data is problematic. Before we bathwater. We should not forget that vehicle noise is a decide to require the fitment of acoustic vehicle alerting major blight on our towns and cities. A significant systems, we should first undertake work to identify the proportion of UK citizens are regularly exposed to real issues and decide whether they should be addressed road traffic noise above the level that the World Health through vehicle technology or by influencing the behaviour Organisation considers a serious risk to public health. of road users. One of our main challenges is to decide Quieter vehicles have the potential to transform our when regulation is appropriate. We do not want to stifle towns and cities, making them far more pleasant places innovation, but nor do we want to miss the opportunity in which to live and work. to deliver real safety benefits. We are committed to a “better regulation” approach, which means that we will Mrs Glindon: I rise in relation to the perception that avoid the use of legislation in cases where market forces we all have of danger. Some 80% of it comes from our and industry standards can provide an outcome that is hearing, so sound plays a significant role in orientation as good, or better, and we need to be clear about the for all pedestrians. Does the Minister not think that that costs and benefits before we consider a legislative approach. is important? It affects everybody. If we are talking about 80% of our perception, it is a massive factor in Mr Andrew Smith: If the Minister does not think that avoiding danger, so we need sound to help us. the information is there now to take that decision, when does he think that it will be there? Mr Goodwill: Certainly any pedestrian who relies solely on not hearing a vehicle coming would have Mr Goodwill: Certainly, we will be keen to look at problems given the number of cycles on our roads. research as soon as it becomes available. Funnily enough, Let me briefly touch on one or two points that have as a former MEP, I know that the issue was discussed in been made in the debate. The hon. Member for Inverclyde Europe more than seven years ago, but there was not (Mr McKenzie) said that there was a genuine debate to sufficient research on which to move forward. Much of be had over the type, volume and direction of the the work that we carried out in the European Parliament sound. That underlines the fact that we still do not have was about how to make vehicles quieter. We looked at an absolutely clear way forward. What is the best sound how to make tyres quieter and how to improve our and at what speed should that sound come into action? urban environment by having quieter vehicles. After all Indeed, should we have sounds coming out of the back noise has an impact on us all. of the vehicle when it is reversing, as many lorries already have, or out of the front? Tracey Crouch: Is the Minister aware that research A number of Members talked about their experience from the European Union found that 93% of blind and of wearing blacked-out spectacles. I also had that experience partially sighted people have already experienced difficulties but without the guide dog. I found that there were many with electric vehicles? In the Department’s research, are hazards with which people with impaired vision had to the figures broken down by groups of people? For contend, including cars parking on paths and all the example, do we know whether the instances that he has pavement clutter, such as tables and chairs at cafes, highlighted involved other vehicles or pedestrians and which most of us take for granted. whether those pedestrians were partially sighted or The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) talked about blind? rural areas. It is certainly the case that in towns, there are often pedestrian light controlled crossings or traffic Mr Goodwill: I shall certainly mine into that information lights with crossings at them, which make it much easier to see whether I can give my hon. Friend a bit more for blind and partially sighted people. He also referred detail. As there is a relatively small number of hybrid to the concept of shared space, which a number of and electric vehicles, and a small proportion of people towns in the Netherlands have developed. A few tentative affected because of sight problems, it is difficult to get approaches have been made in this country as well. He statistically valid information. said that, for a person with limited vision, it was a We should recognise that drivers are responsible for terrifying experience going on to a shared space area. driving with consideration and for avoiding accidents, However, in general, the evidence is that towns with and we need to be cautious about taking any position such areas are safer than the ones with conventional that might be seen as shifting responsibility for accident traffic and pedestrian segregation. He also made the avoidance further towards the pedestrian. We should point that we introduced seatbelts to make the car safer, also avoid confusion with, for example, alerts that sound but there was very clear and real evidence that safety at pedestrian light controlled crossings. Bearing in mind belts did improve safety. that people travel extensively around the world, any I will briefly outline our commitment to ultra-low confusion over that is something of which we should be emission vehicles and why they offer a once-in-a-generation aware. That is why we support an international agreement opportunity to support our growth ambitions and on that, and hopefully we can move forward in that way. environmental commitments. Last month, we published Drivers should be paying attention, and they should not an ultra-low emission vehicle strategy, “Driving the rely on the noise of their vehicles to warn pedestrians of future today”, which set out our ambition to establish their approach, or that they are about to move off. the UK as a leading market for such vehicles, with UK We are keen to continue to work with Guide Dogs industry at the forefront of their design, development and its partners on this issue. We have forged a valuable and manufacture. That included a commitment to launch relationship with them, and ministerial colleagues and I a call for evidence later this year to help shape our 315WH Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road 30 OCTOBER 2013 316WH Users) [Mr Goodwill] Low Pay package of support and to inform us on how best to 4.15 pm utilise an additional £500 million of funding, which we are making available between 2015 and 2020 to support Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): It is a the growing market for low-emission vehicles. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. We will launch the call for evidence shortly and Growth may be making an overdue return to the UK welcome any views of vulnerable road users’ representative economy, but the continuing slump in real wages is groups, and we will ensure that they are on the distribution forecast by the Office for Budget Responsibility to list. The strategy and funding announcement together extend into 2014, and the UK currently has the highest with the Budget 2013 commitments to maintaining a inflation rate in the European Union, both of which favourable tax regime for ultra-low emission vehicles to contribute to the cost of living crisis. The Office for 2020 was specifically designed to give certainty to the National Statistics confirmed this morning in its November market. We have already seen our policies bear fruit—for economic brief that real disposable household incomes example, by attracting production of the Nissan Euro have not risen in a sustained way under the Government’s Leaf and battery in Sunderland, the Toyota Auris at policies. Burnaston in Derbyshire, and BMW’s i8 powertrain Despite employees working more hours than before at Hams Hall in Warwickshire. the economic crisis began, the recovery is not making We also recognise the importance and excellence of its way into the pockets of ordinary workers. Workers in the UK’s automotive research and development sector, the lower half of the income scale, particularly low-paid with £1.5 billion of annual investment by the industry. workers, are falling even further behind the top 1% of In support of that, the Government have provided more earners in our society. There has never been a more than £80 million of targeted funding for low-carbon important time for this House to discuss the issue of vehicle technologies through the Office for Low Emission low pay and how together, as a Parliament and a Vehicles. By channelling that money through the Technology society, we can tackle what is now a crisis. Strategy Board, and working closely with industry, we As the report of the Social Mobility and Child Poverty have helped generate more than £350 million of total Commission recently made clear, poverty pay blights investment in nearly 200 collaborative projects that will the outcomes in life of millions of men, women and significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions from road children across our country. Every week, those of us vehicles. Following publication of our new strategy, I with the honour of representing our great cities such as am proud to say that the UK now has one of the most Glasgow meet those who suffer the effects of being long-term and comprehensive packages of support for trapped in low pay for long periods. According to the ultra-low emission vehicles in the world. Poverty Alliance, 870,000, or 17%, of the population in Scotland live in poverty. A fifth of all children in Richard Burden: The Minister is giving the Chamber Scotland are below the breadline. some impressive statistics about investment. Will he say This afternoon I will show that low pay is a problem how much is being invested in the safety of quiet not only in urban parts of the UK; there are pockets of vehicles? If he is not able to tell us today, will he write to truly shocking poverty in rural parts of Britain, too. If us about that? we are to come up with the right answers on low pay, we must first acknowledge how serious and widespread a Mr Goodwill: All manufacturers have to produce social evil this now is across our country. vehicles, including ultra-low emission ones, to safe standards. I shall ask my officials to find out what specific research Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I congratulate the and development funding has gone into that. hon. Gentleman on securing this debate, and I endorse We recognise that there is a balance to be struck his comment that low pay affects rural areas such as between the growth opportunity and the concerns of mine as much as urban Glasgow. However, does he the vulnerable road users. We welcome any evidence accept that the decision to raise tax thresholds provides that will help us refine our policy so that the switch to the best possible support to low-paid workers? ultra-low emission vehicles will provide the greatest benefit to the greatest number of people while maintaining Mr Bain: I am grateful for that intervention; I will be the paramount importance of safety considerations for considering that point later in my speech. However, I all road and pavement users, including those with limited must point out to the hon. Gentleman that those on the sight. I will certainly pass on the comments that were lowest earnings will not gain a penny from further made today to my noble Friend, Baroness Kramer. increases in the personal allowance. I can direct him to the research that the Resolution Foundation has produced 3.58 pm on the subject. It has looked at the matter in detail. Sitting suspended. There are also issues—I shall also come to this point later—about the effects that universal credit will have, particularly in relation to any future increases in the personal allowance. Sadly, given how the Government are designing the credit, what they give with one hand, they may be taking away with another, and that is an important consideration. The hon. Gentleman has a good record on the subject. I am sure that is borne out of his own experience in his constituency, where 47% of part-time workers are earning 317WH Low Pay30 OCTOBER 2013 Low Pay 318WH less than a living wage. He is absolutely right to campaign less than the living wage. In parts of Northern Ireland on the subject—more power to him for doing so from and the south and south-west of England, poverty pay the Conservative Benches. among part-time employees is equally endemic. Even in As I grew up in Glasgow, the real life experiences of the constituency of the Secretary of State for Work and people paid less than £1 an hour for security work were Pensions, more than two in every five part-time workers a scar on my conscience and a powerful spur to action take home less than the living wage. With women more on poverty pay. The success of the minimum wage in likely to be in part-time work than men, extreme low raising pay rates for the most disadvantaged working pay, particularly in the social care sector, represents not poor households is shown by the fact that the Conservatives only economic injustice but gender inequality. who opposed it, and the Liberal Democrats and members of the Scottish National party who did not vote for the Guy Opperman: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman legislation, now would not dare abolish it. for giving way to me for a second time. I know he is a Indeed, several Ministers in the Department for Business, passionate advocate of the living wage in Glasgow, Innovation and Skills, including the Secretary of State where there has been some success. Does he agree that, and the Minister for Skills and Enterprise, who I am for the living wage to gain greater traction and to have pleased to see in his place, claim that they want to build the take-up that we all want without the statutory on the success of the national minimum wage. It is empowerment that nobody wants, the key issue is trying important that today we see precisely how the Government to find ways to incentivise businesses, particularly in anticipate changing the remit of the Low Pay Commission low-wage economies—the hospitality sector being an to that end. obvious example? Does he accept that, and does he have any ideas about how that should be done? According to the latest data from the Office for National Statistics in response to a parliamentary question Mr Bain: That is a very good idea. We should be I recently submitted, the average gross median wage in considering what is available in fiscal terms and what we Britain in 2012 was £405 a week, which is almost 7% can do through procurement. As I will describe, local down in real terms from 2010. For the low paid, the authorities and other parts of the public and voluntary situation is even more desperate, given that higher energy, sectors have a good record of addressing low pay, but housing and food costs affect them with even greater that needs to be extended to the private sector. Procurement severity. is one means by which we can do that. More worryingly, the argument that having a job is enough on its own to lift a family out of poverty has My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central lost much of its potency, because two thirds of the (Anas Sarwar) is here today. He will know that the 3 million children living in poverty in this country today Procurement Reform (Scotland) Bill, presented by the live in households in which at least one adult is in work. Scottish Government, is particularly disappointing and October’s rise in the main rate of the national minimum simply does not meet the test of ending low pay in wage to £6.31 an hour was the fourth successive uprating Scotland. below the rise in prices. The minimum wage has lost a As many as 220,000 direct care workers may be paid fifth of its value in real terms over the past decade, and less than their legal entitlement to the national minimum we must begin to reverse that. wage. That is a national scandal, and the Government Under-employment and the low-skilled, low-paid work must act to end it. Worse, poverty pay is creating an that has been created in an increasingly hourglass-shaped even larger burden on the state because it is one of the labour market in the past few years have made the cost biggest drivers of the increasing costs of housing benefit of living crisis worse for millions of the working poor. and tax credits. The recent report of the Social Mobility The Resolution Foundation has established that 4.8 million and Child Poverty Commission found that 84% of the people, or one in five across the UK, earn less than the public agree that employers should do more to pay living wage rate set by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. wages that better reflect the cost of living. That figure is up by 1.4 million in the past four years It is becoming increasingly clear that, if there is to be alone. a wage-led recovery that reaches all the people of the United Kingdom, further action on the national minimum Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend ask wage is needed now. According to the 2012 labour force the Minister whether, to help all those on the national survey, low pay is more prevalent in the private sector, minimum wage across the UK—including 7% of the with sole traders, partnerships and companies reporting Welsh population, some 95,000 people, which is higher rates of low pay at 47%, 35%, and 26% respectively. than the UK average of 5%—he will seriously consider That compares with a low pay rate of only 15% in local why the cost of living has eroded the rises in the government. national minimum wage so quickly in the past two or Although the tax credit system cushioned living standards three years and what he can do about that? between 2003 and 2008, and remains an important means of improving work incentives now, the case for Mr Bain: My hon. Friend is right, and she speaks building on the success of the national minimum wage with great passion on behalf of her constituents. Some has never been stronger. We should support councils 57% of her constituents in part-time work earn less and other parts of the public sector that pay or use than the living wage, so she will be seeing on a weekly procurement rules with the voluntary and private sectors basis the real effects of poverty on the living standards to extend a living wage to more and more people. The of people in Llanelli. Government should at last support the recognised living Other analysis that I recently received from the ONS wage accreditation scheme, which would be a splendid shows that in parts of the north-east of England between way to mark national living wage week next week, but a half and two thirds of part-time workers are earning we also need to understand that a rise in the national 319WH Low Pay30 OCTOBER 2013 Low Pay 320WH

[Mr Bain] skills in the workplace, to help progression and allow people to advance within a job and have the potential to minimum wage will help substantially more workers earn a larger salary as a result. The truth is that the low than even a voluntary expansion of the living wage by rate of the national minimum wage is acting as a ceiling, employers. rather than as a springboard, to higher living standards. We also need better enforcement of the minimum The Government must do more on workplace skills to wage to stop the exploitation of unpaid interns for ensure that people can progress in their jobs. months on end and should back the superb campaign I have some specific points, which I hope the Minister led by Intern Aware. Equity highlights the ongoing can deal with. In what ways might the Government issue with performers and arts organisations in relation change the remit of the Low Pay Commission? Are they to the exemption in section 44 of the National Minimum looking to what Gavin Kelly of the Resolution Foundation Wage Act 1998. has termed “forward guidance” on future rises in the It is particularly shameful that the maximum penalty national minimum wage as the economy, we hope, for fly-tipping is 10 times the penalty for not paying a continues to grow? worker the legal minimum rate for an hour’s work and What particular issues has the Minister asked the that the average fine per breach of the minimum wage Low Pay Commission to examine in looking at how, rules was just over £1,000 in the last financial year. sector by sector, national minimum pay rates might be There were just two successful prosecutions of employers increased? In sectors such as finance and banking, it has last year for failing to pay the minimum wage rate, been established that higher pay rates might be affordable according to information provided to me by the Treasury. now, at no or relatively little cost to those employers, The Government can do a great deal more on enforcement, whereas for hotels and restaurants a more phased approach and I hope the Minister will outline the next steps. to raising wage rates might work best, to maximise As I said to the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy employment. Opperman), increasing the personal tax allowance does The prize for employers is real: higher productivity, not in itself end the crisis of low pay. Many low-paid higher job satisfaction and reduced staff turnover. For workers do not earn enough to pay income tax and so workers, the Government and society, tackling chronic would not benefit from further rises in the personal low wages could restore the principles that work will allowance. For lone or couple households with children, pay and that low-income Britain should share more the interaction between a rising minimum wage and the fairly in the wealth that it generates for this country. help provided by the tax credit system will do the most Such a policy should commend itself not only to Opposition to raise living standards. Members, but to every shade of political opinion in the We also need to be mindful that the introduction of House. It is time for this Government to do the right universal credit will mean that what low-income taxpayers thing for once, and to support giving low-wage Britain a may gain from a higher personal allowance will be lost much-needed pay rise. through the new tax credit system, which is assessed on after-tax income. New research by Gingerbread published 4.33 pm this morning shows that the Government’s current plans for universal credit will make it far harder for low-income The Minister for Skills and Enterprise (Matthew lone parents to make work pay beyond 20 hours a week, Hancock): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, as the incentives rapidly taper away. Mr Hood. I thank the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) for securing the debate and giving us the Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): I congratulate opportunity for discussion. I have listened carefully to my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. He his arguments, which were passionately put. As he said, rightly says that having a job is not an automatic route there is a strong cross-party consensus behind the minimum out of poverty. For example, 50% of people who use a wage and the institution of the Low Pay Commission, food bank in my constituency are in work. Does that which advises the Government on the appropriate rate. not demonstrate that we need to create not only employment Interestingly, more Government Members than Opposition but a quality level of income so that people can lift Members are in the Chamber, which demonstrates the themselves out of poverty and give opportunities to cross-party support for the minimum wage and a their children? commitment not only to it, but to its effective enforcement. We are absolutely clear that anyone entitled to be paid Mr Bain: My hon. Friend is entirely correct. He the minimum wage should receive it. represents a constituency in which nearly half—44%—of Before I answer some of the points made and set out male part-time workers are earning less than the living what the Government are planning to do, I want to give wage and in which nearly a third of all part-time some statistics in response to the hon. Gentleman. workers are in the same predicament. We both see, Times are undoubtedly tough following the great recession therefore, the costs that that has on society, with people of 2008 to 2009, but since then the bottom quintile or unable to make their salary or wages last the week or fifth of the population have become around 6% better the month, so that they are forced in increasing numbers off, in part because of measures taken by the Government. into using food banks, just to feed their families. That is Overall, household disposable incomes have risen in the wrong and shameful, and we can collectively do something past year and in the past quarter. about it. Specific actions taken by the coalition Government The Resolution Foundation has shown recently that include freezing council tax; freezing and then cutting once workers, women in particular, are trapped in jobs fuel duty; introducing the apprenticeship minimum wage, paying the minimum wage, they find it hard to progress which did not exist before, in 2010; cutting beer duty; out of them. The Government need to do a lot more on and of course raising the tax threshold, which was 321WH Low Pay30 OCTOBER 2013 Low Pay 322WH mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham Matthew Hancock: I was about to answer that point. (Guy Opperman). The tax bill of people working full To consider what best to do to ensure that everyone time on the minimum wage has been cut in half. gains from the economic recovery as it comes, we have Government Members would argue that the best to understand all the factors affecting low wages and route out of poverty is work, with benefit and education low pay in our economy. I imagine that there is a reform and, as the hon. Member for Glasgow North common desire to see wages rising without damaging East mentioned, an enhancement of skills. That is vital employment. in the long term, but we have been able to take some The Low Pay Commission was set up to get that shorter-term fiscal measures to support people’s disposable balance right. We have now asked it to look at what incomes—after tax—even in difficult times. economic conditions might be needed to allow the The hon. Gentleman also discussed universal credit national minimum wage to rise more in future than and tax credits. Tax credits have the disadvantage of the current conditions allow without having an adverse withdrawal rate and the increase in marginal effective impact on jobs. Improving incentives to work by having taxes. However, universal credit will ensure that work a higher minimum wage has a positive impact on always pays, so it and a consistent withdrawal rate will employment, but we must get the balance right. be part of the solution to poverty. We want to ensure Employment is growing strongly in this country, which that incentives are right to support people who get on is good because unemployment is worse than being in a and work hard. job on the minimum wage. We must get that balance right. We are doing what we can to protect the incomes of Mr Bain: How do the Government respond to the working households that have been squeezed, hence we research produced today by Gingerbread? Given the have cut income tax by raising the tax threshold and new way in which universal credit will work—assessed taking almost 3 million people out of tax. The rises in on after-tax income—what lone parents get through the the personal allowance are worth up to £700 in cash and tax system they will in effect lose through universal more than £500 in real terms from April 2014, which is credit. Frankly, will that not make it difficult for the a significant improvement. Government to make good the pledge of the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, that work will pay for We are also taking important action on enforcement every hour that people work? of the national minimum wage. Anyone who is entitled to it should receive it. Since 1 October, employers who fail to pay it will be publicly named, and revamped Matthew Hancock: Absolutely; it is vital that work criteria were announced in August to make it easier to always pays for every hour, and that is why having a clamp down on rogue businesses. In 2012-13, more than consistent withdrawal rate in universal credit matters. It 700 employers received penalties totalling more than is valuable that this debate is not particularly partisan, £775,000 for failing to comply with minimum wage law. but I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the fact From the start of this month, I am writing personally to that, with tax credits as they were, withdrawal rates every new apprentice to ensure that they are aware of were sometimes more than 100%, so in some cases—not their rights under the legislation. Under the original in large numbers—people were taking home less when scheme, we named only one employer because the they worked harder. Universal credit will put an end to benchmark was set high. It was introduced only in 2011 that, which should be welcomed in all parts of the and did not exist in that form under the previous House. Government. We have strengthened it from 1 October. All that is part of an effort to toughen up enforcement Guy Opperman: Does the Minister accept that the of the national minimum wage, not least because it is true way to engineer people out of low pay is to provide fair that scrupulous employers who pay the national them with the skills to do a better job and to make minimum wage are not undercut by unscrupulous employers progress? Last week, I opened an engineering academy who do not pay it. We are taking a multi-faceted approach, in Hexham, and shortly we hope to welcome to the including improved new targeted communications, to north-east the skills funding pilot of the Department raise awareness in addition to letters from me, which I for Business, Innovation and Skills. Does he accept that am sure every apprentice enjoys receiving. This work is skills are the real secret for the future of the low-paid? starting to produce results. In 2012-13, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs identified £3.9 million arrears of Matthew Hancock: Yes, of course. As the Skills and wages for 26,500 workers. Enterprise Minister, everyone would be amazed—I would Action has been taken, but we must get the balance not be doing my job—if I did not support that argument, right. We have asked the Low Pay Commission to take which I do. further action, but we must do that in a way that supports the rising number of jobs in this country. Nia Griffith: As has been rightly pointed out, whether Overall, it is valuable not only to debate the issues, but with tax credits or universal credit, there is an issue to continue to try to get the balance right between about tapering. More importantly, there is also an issue ensuring that work always pays and that the minimum about the public purse. Whatever the history—which, in wage is at a level that supports people in work as my opinion, shows that when the national minimum consistently as possible with ensuring that it does not wage was introduced, it was opposed by certain parties, harm the employment prospects of those who are seeking so it had to be brought in at a compromise level—the work. issue remains that, unless we look seriously at raising Doing that at the same time as trying to remove some the minimum wage at a faster rate, we will continually of the fiscal costs—the taxes on jobs—asking the Low have to top up from the public purse. Pay Commission to take a forward-looking view of 323WH Low Pay 30 OCTOBER 2013 324WH

[Matthew Hancock] Release of Bodies from Hospital what economic conditions would be necessary to allow a faster increase in future and the stronger naming 4.44 pm scheme demonstrate that we are working hard to ensure Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) that the national minimum wage is effective, fairly enforced (Con): As ever, Mr Hood, it is a pleasure to serve under and supports people who do the right thing, work hard your chairmanship. I particularly thank Mr Speaker for and are trying to provide for their families in tough granting this important debate on a subject that, had it times. That shows that the coalition Government are on not been brought to my attention by a constituent, I their side. would not have believed possible outside the scripts of comedy or perhaps, more appropriately on the day Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): I confirm that the next before Hallowe’en, a horror film. However, the occurrence debate must be concluded by 5.15. is possibly far more widespread than is known about, and my constituent fears that it is the modem equivalent of body-snatching by unscrupulous undertakers who, keen to ensure that they are subsequently contracted by bereaved families to organise funerals, take unlawful control of a body. This situation, which the funeral industry states is rare, and the hospital concerned states arose under unusual circumstances, is none the less one raised by my constituent amidst fears that it was in fact a deliberate attempt to exploit bereaved families in the immediate aftermath of a death, enabled to do so by a legal grey area and poorly drafted Department of Health guidelines. As a result of my constituent’s case, and after acquainting myself with the guidelines on how bodies are dealt with, I decided to seek this debate to raise two issues. The matter is clearly of limited interest to colleagues, but I welcome the opportunity to make my points direct to the Minister, and I look forward to his response. First, the existing legislation needs clarification. There is a definite need for guidelines for hospitals and hospice staff to be revised, so that they comply with the existing law, and prevent staff from being exposed to unwarranted prosecution based on the technicalities of existing legal grey areas. Secondly, and probably more importantly, I want to highlight a culture of complicity between undertakers and hospital staff, and potentially deliberate unscrupulous practices deployed by undertakers, who get away with them not in spite of Department of Health guidelines but, worryingly, because of them. A further point worth raising is Bristol royal infirmary’s failure in its duty of care towards the deceased and her family. On Saturday 23 March this year, Gladys Pugh, the mother-in-law of my constituent, Mr Peter Williams, sadly died in Bristol royal infirmary. Her body was taken to the hospital’s mortuary to await the coroner’s permission for it to be released. The following Tuesday, Mr Williams and his wife began the painful task of contacting undertakers to ask for quotes and to discuss possible funeral arrangements. Three funeral directors were contacted. Mr and Mrs Williams planned to travel to Bristol to register the death and to visit the funeral directors they had contacted, but with the long Easter weekend so close, they could not make the journey until 2 April. The family contacted all the undertakers they had spoken to and informed them they would come back to them if they were interested in taking matters further after the Easter break. On 2 or 3 of April, one of the undertakers, Thomas Davis, part of Bristol Funeral Directors group and a member of all the relevant trade organisations, including the National Association of Funeral Directors, contacted Mr Williams and asked what was happening about the arrangements. Mr Williams informed them clearly that 325WH Release of Bodies from Hospital30 OCTOBER 2013 Release of Bodies from Hospital 326WH they had decided to engage the services of another the body for disposal—those guidelines are, I am told, undertaker, thanked them for their interest, and left it probably of no legal effect. In the case of Bristol royal at that. infirmary, its own release note, which Mr Williams was It then transpired that without the permission of the told would be essential for the release of the body, is Williams family and without any form of verbal or also possibly not worth the paper it is printed on. written contract, Thomas Davis had driven to the hospital’s That is because case law dating back to 1841 states mortuary on 27 March, the day it was contacted by that once a person has died, unless the medical staff or Mr Williams, and removed Mrs Pugh’s body to one of the coroner order an autopsy, the deceased person’s its own facilities. The situation came to light 10 days body becomes the responsibility of—but not the property after Mrs Pugh’s body had been taken from the mortuary of—in the following order: the executor of the will; the when the company subsequently appointed by my next of kin; or, in the absence of the above two, a person constituent contacted the mortuary to arrange collection or persons intending to pay for and arrange the funeral. of Mrs Pugh’s body, only to be told that it had been Failing that, the local authority must take control. taken away some 10 days previously. There are, therefore, a limited group of people to whom There was an understandable feeling of horror, shock lawful control of a body can be given, which can also and disbelief that Mrs Pugh’s body had been kidnapped include their appointed representatives. That is the bit by an undertaker whose sole instruction was to offer a of the law that is absolutely crystal clear. quote, which incidentally was never forthcoming, and However, what follows is much more confusing. Even to inquire about available dates for cremation. I use the where guidelines stipulate which forms must be presented word “kidnapped” after considerable thought. First, before a body can be released—such as Bristol royal I cannot use the word “stolen” as a dead body is not infirmary’s own release form—in fact, once someone technically the property of anyone except the deceased. who can lawfully take responsibility for a body demands That is one of the grey areas that legal experts agree to be allowed to do so, the hospital is apparently needs clarification. Secondly, as kidnapping is the removal powerless to prevent the release of the body, irrespective of a person without their consent, and as a dead person of trust or Department guidelines, and irrespective of is still considered a person in law but is unable to give what paperwork the person or persons may or, in this such consent—and, as “stolen” would not be legally case, may not have. correct—“kidnapped” is the only suitable word that That is a very important, albeit technical, point, I can use to describe what happened. which I wish the Minister to take note of, because if a I argue that Thomas Davis acted unlawfully, because hospital employee, following the appropriate guidelines, all that had been requested by the Williams family was refuses to release the body to someone who can lawfully for a quote to be provided for the services, and for take control of it, honestly believing that he or she is provisional inquiries to be made with a local crematorium. doing the right thing, that employee can technically There was no contract, no formal quote, and at no time open themselves up to prosecution for preventing a were the family informed that the body had been collected. burial or cremation—even if that was never the intention Furthermore, at no time was any of the paperwork and even if they were simply seeking to establish whether required under Department of Health hospital guidelines the person taking responsibility was legally entitled to for the release of Mrs Pugh’s body handed over by the do so. family to Thomas Davis. It is that point—the lack of consent given by the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I spoke to the hon. Williams family—that makes the removal of the body Lady beforehand about this issue. She has outlined unlawful. That is where the first issue arises. Ignoring technical issues about how the body should have been the motivation for a moment, how can an undertaker released and where the process has fallen down. Is she take possession of a body from a hospital lawfully? The also concerned at the impact that such a situation has answer—for it to be lawful, the person in control of the on the families at a time of grief and sorrow? No matter body must be enabled by law, by dint of their status in what, that cannot be overlooked. the life of the deceased or through being appointed the agent of such a person. In the case of Mr Williams’ Caroline Nokes: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that mother-in-law, the undertakers had not been given the intervention. He is, of course, exactly correct on that legal right to take control of the body by the family and point. It is a time of great grief and distress to families, were therefore not in legal possession of it. and they are often not in a position either to know what What checks were made by the mortuary staff to the legal technicalities are or to ensure that they are ascertain the lawful right of the undertakers to take properly implemented. I will come on to his specific responsibility for the body? None, it would appear. It points very shortly. seems that the law is at the same time both very clear According to some legal experts, this grey area has and utterly confusing on that point, and furthermore, arisen from a number of test cases—including one in contradicts the Government’s own guidelines. I hope 1974—that have apparently established that a person that my hon. Friend the Minister will bear with me claiming lawful control does not need to provide any while I try to explain that. paperwork at all to justify their claim over a body. Although NHS trusts have very strict guidelines on Furthermore, and of great concern, not only are there releasing bodies, largely based on the Department of no stipulations in law regarding what paperwork must Health’s publication, “Care and Respect in Death: Good be presented, or what conditions met, irrespective of Practice Guidance for NHS Mortuary Staff”, and usually guidelines, it is apparently illegal to demand that anyone stipulate that the person collecting the body must be in seeking lawful control of a body do anything to justify possession of the relevant paperwork, often including their claim. In other words, unless my understanding is “the green form”—an interim death certificate releasing incorrect, not only are trust guidelines of no legal effect, 327WH Release of Bodies from Hospital30 OCTOBER 2013 Release of Bodies from Hospital 328WH

[Caroline Nokes] Certainly, what is clear in this case is that Bristol royal infirmary and the undertakers did not act in but they can actually put the staff seeking to implement accordance with the Department’s guidelines and were, them at a technical risk of prosecution—something that in fact, acting like some modern-day Burke and Hare I know will be of concern to my hon. Friend the operation. What is abundantly clear is that Bristol royal Minister. infirmary’s response to Mr Williams is inadequate. Although The first issue, therefore, that I would like my hon. some changes to policy have been implemented, those Friend the Minister to consider is clearing up the are changes that my constituent calls “minimal”, and discrepancy between the guidelines that NHS, hospice there is no guarantee that it will not happen again. As and care home staff are given and the technical exposure my constituent noted in a letter to the hospital’s chief to prosecution that they face if they seek to abide by executive, Mr Woolley: them. Furthermore, perhaps the law can also, at the “The Post Office would appear to take more care in the release same time, be clarified to state what rights the next of of a parcel than the BRI did in the release of a body”. kin have over a body, which is something that it does To say that my constituent is unhappy with the response not clearly do at the moment, because, as I said earlier, that he has received from the hospital would be an the body is not technically considered to be the property understatement. He is desperate to see the changes of anyone. required to prevent other families experiencing the kidnapping of bodies belonging to their loved ones, but I turn to the second point that has been highlighted feels that the points he has raised with the hospital have by my constituents. The right of lawful control does simply been ignored, with the hospital blaming a member not pass to undertakers unless they have been properly of staff for not following procedures. contracted and bestowed with the right to take the body. Furthermore, departmental guidelines clearly state Mr Williams asks two perfectly reasonable questions that that right must be demonstrated by the production in his complaint to the hospital. Those questions are, as of the relevant paperwork. What we have to ask, therefore, yet, unanswered. First, why did Thomas Davis arrive at is how did this situation arise and how widespread is the the hospital without the paperwork that the hospital practice? itself says is essential for a body to be released? Secondly, why was the body released without that paperwork? In accordance with Department of Health guidelines, Mr Williams is worried that the answer to both those Bristol royal infirmary operates a system where a body questions is this: because the undertaker assumed that will not be released without staff being presented with he would not need the paperwork—an assumption based one of its own release notes—something that my constituent on past experience of acting in a similar manner. That was very clearly told. However, in this case, no such begs the obvious question: how many other bodies have release note was presented, because the undertaker was been taken in that way? It appears that the hospital will never given it. How, then, did the body come to be given not accept responsibility for its failure in its duty of care to the undertaker? In answer to that, I again draw the towards the Williams family, seeming to want to blame attention of my hon. Friend the Minister to his individual hospital employees and the funeral industry. Department’s guidelines, which, like the law, can at best be described as vague. That is another area of concern to Mr Williams, because all that has been received from the funeral For example, while the guidelines state that a body industry is a response that is, to say the least, disappointing, must be released to “the correct recipient”, they do not stating only that “these mistakes sometimes happen” say who that is. The guidelines also say that “standard and offering nothing beyond that. My constituent has operating procedures” should be known by all staff rightly complained to the health service ombudsman, through training, and be robustly audited. They clearly and we await with interest the decision on that complaint, state: but there is no redress against the undertakers who took “Before a deceased person’s body is released, mortuary staff the body of my constituent’s mother-in-law, held it should check that all necessary documentation is complete”. unlawfully and refused to take responsibility for doing Even if that was a legal requirement, which it seems it so, knowing that they are virtually free of any legal may not be, in this case there were clearly no checks of consequences for their unlawful behaviour. the paperwork because none can have been presented. I hope that, in his response, the Minister will touch The guidelines go on to state: on both aspects of this sorry tale: the lack of legal “The body of a person who has died may be collected from the clarity, rights and protection that both relatives and mortuary by the family, but is usually released to a representative, NHS staff have; and measures designed to prevent most often a funeral director. Mortuaries should therefore ensure undertakers from seeing distressed and grieving families that they have good lines of communication and working relationships as representing a lucrative opportunity provided that with local funeral directors.” they can first kidnap the body by relying on the cosy Here, the advice is that hospitals need good working relationship that they might enjoy with the local hospital, relationships with local undertakers. It seems that that which the Department’s own guidelines encourage. advice has been taken far too literally in this case at From grave robbery to daylight robbery, the funeral least, and I fear elsewhere, with the establishment of a industry has questions to answer, as, having spoken to very cosy relationship between undertaker and hospital—a campaigners in preparation for this debate, I can tell the relationship where it is deemed that things can be taken Minister that, despite the comments of the industry, on trust, and contrary to guidelines, no checks are this practice is said to be far more widespread than is required as to the legal right of the undertaker to take believed or acknowledged. Sadly, I am told that people control of the body.That is not a good working relationship rarely complain, because they simply want to grieve and with clear lines of communication; it is an abuse of move on, and the funeral industry is rarely held to trust. account. 329WH Release of Bodies from Hospital30 OCTOBER 2013 Release of Bodies from Hospital 330WH

I suspect that neither the Department nor the funeral of the body have a right to its custody and possession industry keeps figures on how often this practice happens. until it is disposed of. In straightforward cases, in which It would be interesting to know whether the Department the coroner is not involved, the duty to dispose of the has some figures. However, my constituent fears that body can rest with a range of individuals or organisations, his experience is merely the tip of the iceberg—a view with an established order of precedence. The executor shared by campaigners in this area. I hope that now that of a will, not the next of kin, has the primary claim to this issue has been highlighted, the Department will possession. seriously consider bringing clarity to what the legislation Generally, when a person dies, an early priority for says and will offer protection to NHS, hospice and care the family is to arrange the final disposal of the person’s home employees and to grieving families, protecting body. Lawful disposal may occur once a registrar has them from undertakers who should be there to offer a received a satisfactory medical certificate of cause of service at the time of greatest need and ensuring that death and subsequently issued a certificate of disposal, bereavement and grief are not exploited. commonly known as the green form, or the coroner issues a certificate of disposal where a death has been 5.1 pm referred for a coroner’s investigation. My hon. Friend has clearly done an enormous amount of research on The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman this subject. I am very impressed by the amount of Lamb): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for knowledge that she has acquired. Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) on securing the debate and raising an issue of extreme The person with the authority to administer the sensitivity. I can imagine the enormous distress for the estate of the deceased person has the right to possess family involved. As the intervention suggested, at a the body in order to arrange disposal of the body— moment of grieving, no family would want to have to the funeral. The green form is one of the pieces of cope with this situation. Let me be very clear that the documentation required to allow a funeral to proceed practice that my hon. Friend describes, whether it is a and is often passed from the family to the funeral one-off or more widespread, is completely unacceptable. director. However, it is not a legal requirement for an That message has to be disseminated to the entire individual to produce a green form in order to collect system, because respect for families who have suffered a the body from the hospital. In practice, many hospitals bereavement and respect for the deceased person are of appear to treat the green form as the key documentation paramount importance. I am therefore very grateful to for body release. I understand that hospitals do that to my hon. Friend for raising this subject and enabling me confirm that the death is not a coroner’s case. Potentially, to respond. I am grateful also to her constituent, up until the green form is issued, a registrar could refer Mr Williams, for raising the issue with her so that it a death to the coroner because new information relating could be exposed in Parliament. to the death has come to light and the registrar finds themselves under a duty to report the death to the Each year, more than 500,000 people die in England coroner. The other reason for some hospitals insisting and Wales, with local mortuary and bereavement services on seeing the green form is, understandably, for reassurance working hard to ensure that during the period of grief, that the body is being released to the right person. That the bereaved are supported and due regard is given to is key to the case that my hon. Friend has raised today. their individual needs. I think that in the vast majority of cases, that happens and people are treated with the In the context of about 500,000 deaths a year, my respect that they deserve. Department has had very little representation to suggest that local hospital procedures for the release of bodies The current guidance, entitled “When a Patient Dies: are causing difficulties. I am interested in this. My Advice on Developing Bereavement Services in the NHS”, understanding is that the Department has not had which was published by the Department in 2005, highlights many representations, yet my hon. Friend’s assertion, the importance of involving relatives in decisions about which I take seriously, is that the practice could be more care after death, but does not set out specific guidelines widespread. We need to understand whether that is on the release of bodies. In addition, the document the case. At the moment, there appears to be a lack entitled “Care and Respect in Death: Good Practice of evidence, but if she or anyone else is aware of more Guidance for NHS Mortuary Staff”, which was issued evidence, we need to hear about it. This is a very important in 2006 and to which my hon. Friend referred, states: matter. “Where families have individual, cultural or religious preferences concerning the storage, handling, transportation or presentation Caroline Nokes: On that specific point, which relates of the deceased person, these need to be carefully documented and accommodated wherever possible.” to the concern the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) raised earlier, one issue my constituent raised Let me now deal with the legal context. A dead body was that the practice occurs at a time of bereavement is a possible source of infection, so society requires that and grieving, and consequently people are far less likely the law balances the need to give regard to the respectful to complain, because they wish to move on and get on disposal of the dead with the need to ensure the protection with their lives and the grieving process. That point is of public health. Hospitals have put in place procedures important, because we simply do not know the extent of to try to manage a number of competing demands and the problem. My constituent is concerned because his legal requirements in a way that causes the least difficulty mother-in-law’s body was released with no paperwork for the vast majority of people and that allows coronial, whatsoever, so the practice could be far more widespread health-and-safety and other requirements to be met. than we will ever know, because it is unreported. The law does not recognise—my hon. Friend made this point—a dead body as someone’s property, but it Norman Lamb: I thank my hon. Friend for that has been held in case law that the executors, administrators intervention. I appreciate that if such practices have or other persons charged by law with the duty to dispose occurred, families will in many cases feel reluctant to 331WH Release of Bodies from Hospital30 OCTOBER 2013 Release of Bodies from Hospital 332WH

[Norman Lamb] and that is potentially a way forward to resolve the problem. Officials have worked with key partners, such raise a complaint. None the less, we need evidence, so if as mortuary technicians, bereavement services and funeral people are aware of such activities, I encourage them to directors, to develop a draft body release form designed come forward. to provide the NHS with reassurance about the In some areas, funeral directors had experienced delays appropriateness of releasing a body, which they currently in collecting bodies from hospitals due to the documentation achieve via the green form. My Department will seek required by the hospital, which relates to the problem views on the merit of such a form, and the contribution my hon. Friend raises. A national representative body of key groups, such as funeral directors associations, of funeral directors reported its members’ concerns to will be vital. The consultation will make further relevant officials in my Department. Following the concerns proposals, and when it is published in due course, I will being raised with us, my Department re-circulated advice welcome my hon. Friend’s participation. on the release of bodies to the NHS in a 26 October My hon. Friend made detailed points about the legislation 2012 edition of The Week bulletin, to highlight to NHS and raised concerns about the potential conflict between trusts that having sight of the green form was not a legal legislation and guidance and concerns about employees requirement for the release of bodies, that holding seeking to comply with the law while under pressure to bodies can cause unnecessary delays, and informing release a body. It is important that we respond to all the them of proposals to consult on a draft body release points she made, and I will ensure that we do so. I end form as part of the consultation on death certification by again thanking her for raising this important, sensitive reforms. I want to reinforce the point that a delay in the issue. Whether this practice is a one-off or more widespread release of the body can also be distressing for loved —whatever its prevalence—it is important that it is ones, who are going through bereavement. Ensuring dealt with properly and that this sort of thing never that the process works efficiently is incredibly important. happens again. Some hospitals have been using their own body release Question put and agreed to. forms, which is the impression I received from Bristol. The situation my hon. Friend describes would not have happened if the hospital had followed its own procedures. 5.12 pm Such forms are used to facilitate release of the body, Sitting adjourned. 49WS Written Statements30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 50WS

1 Armoured Division Signal Regiment1 based in Herford, Written Statements to relocate to the UK in the summer of 2015. During the redevelopment the site will continue to be home to Wednesday 30 October 2013 22 Signal Regiment and the Tactical Supply Wing (RAF) and we will maintain all essential services, undertake all necessary works services and work with the local authorities in Stafford to prepare for the arrival of personnel, BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS families and equipment in 2015.

The programme team will continue to consult interested Technology Strategy Board (Triennial Review) parties including the trade unions and, in Germany, we will continue to engage with the relevant authorities and employee representatives at national, regional and The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David local levels. Willetts): On 10 July 2012 I announced in Parliament through a written ministerial statement—Official Report, The move of the two signal regiments is the final 12WS—commencement of the triennial review of the phase of our pre-SDSR (strategic defence and security Technology Strategy Board (TSB). I am now pleased to review) basing programme, which set out to close Rhine announce the completion of the review. Garrison and Münster station in Germany. We are on The Technology Strategy Board is the UK’s innovation course to close Münster station by the end of 2013 and agency; its goal is to accelerate economic growth by the moves to Stafford will enable the full closure of stimulating and supporting business-led innovation. Rhine Garrison by March 2016. The remaining unit Sponsored by the Department for Business, Innovation moves out of Germany will be implemented as part of and Skills (BIS), the Technology Strategy Board brings the Army basing plan, which was announced by the together business, research and the public sector, supporting Secretary of State on 5 March this year. and accelerating the development of innovative products 1Armoured Division Signal Regiment will be re-titled to 1 Signal and services to meet market needs, tackle major societal Regiment in 2015 as part of Army 2020 restructuring. challenges and help build the future economy. The review concludes that the functions performed by the Technology Strategy Board are still required and that it should be retained as an Executive non-departmental CABINET OFFICE public body. The review also examined the governance arrangements for TSB in line with guidance on good corporate governance set out by the Cabinet Office. The City Deal review concluded that TSB complies with all statutory accountabilities and has strong and effective governance structures. It nonetheless identified a number of The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark): opportunities for improvement which are now in the Following the successful completion of the first wave of process of being implemented. city deals in July 2012 with the “core cities”, the Government The full report of the review of the TSB can be found committed to work with a further 20 cities and their on the gov.uk website and copies have been placed in wider areas to negotiate a second wave of city deals in the Libraries of both Houses. October 2012. Over recent months I have been in negotiation with the New Anglia local enterprise partnership, Suffolk DEFENCE county council, Ipswich borough council and the Babergh, Suffolk Coastal and Mid Suffolk district councils. The Greater Ipswich city deal aims to address youth BORONA Programme unemployment and to increase the skills level of the local work force. By bringing together the efforts and resources of local businesses, local councils, colleges The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence and the Government it will: (Dr Andrew Murrison): As part of the defence Provide opportunities for every young person in the area to transformation announcement on 18 July 2011, the be in education, an apprenticeship or work Secretary of State for Defence confirmed that two Ensure that dedicated support is available to match young signal regiments would relocate from Germany to Beacon people with jobs through a youth jobs centre barracks in Stafford in 2015. Following that announcement the Minister for the Armed Forces gave approval for the Expand the number of jobs and apprenticeships in local recommencement of a procurement competition for the businesses capital works requirements supporting these moves. Increase local investment in skills training Today I am announcing that the procurement Over its lifetime, the New Anglia local enterprise competition has concluded, that all the bids have been partnership estimates that the deal will ensure: evaluated and scrutinised, and that the MOD has decided to award a contract for the redevelopment of Beacon Over 3,500 young people are supported into work barracks, Stafford to Lend Lease Construction (EMEA) £10 million of new local investment in skills training will be Ltd. The redevelopment will enable the two signal regiments, made by employers and local agencies 16 Signal Regiment currently based in Elmpt and 5,000 new apprenticeships will be created 51WS Written Statements30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 52WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Several member states supported the request for further consideration, and others offered support for finding a European Environment Council compromise. The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change supported the request for further consideration in the light of these concerns, and the The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and suggestion that the presidency and Commission develop Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): The Secretary of further proposals that would generate greater consensus. State for Energy and Climate Change and I represented He none the less noted that the compromise package on the UK at the European Environment Council meeting the table was a good compromise and we should only be in Luxembourg on 14 October. Paul Wheelhouse, Scottish looking to minor amendments. The presidency concluded Government Minister for Environment and Climate that it would talk to the Commission, keeping in mind Change, also attended. that a resolution was needed as soon as possible, and After adopting the list of legislative and non-legislative that it would keep member states informed of developments. “A” items, Environment Ministers had an exchange of In other business, the presidency updated the Council views on the proposal to amend the shipments of waste on recent international meetings and events. There were regulation. The Commission emphasised the potentially five events of note, namely: the 11th conference of severe environmental impact of the dumping or parties to the convention to combat desertification; the mismanagement of waste. The strengthening of inspections 20th session of the Commission on Sustainable could bring economic benefits for member states. All Development; the first meeting of the high-level political member states welcomed the potential of the proposals forum on sustainable development; the special event to improve compliance with the waste shipments regulation. towards achieving the millennium development goals; The UK and Bulgaria argued that further consideration and the diplomatic conference for the Minamata convention was required as the proposal risked failing to achieve its on mercury. There were no interventions from member objectives. Several member states agreed with the UK’s states. The Hungarian Minister updated the group on concern that requiring the publication of detailed inspection the Budapest water summit that had taken place on plans could be counterproductive. The UK argued that 8-11 October. The Commission congratulated Hungary such detailed proposals were contrary to the principle for this timely event, as did Sweden. of subsidiarity. The UK would prefer an obligation on Updates were also provided on the 38th International member states and their authorities to plan effectively Civil Aviation Organisation assembly outcome on climate; for inspections, without being overly prescriptive. A the system for monitoring, reporting and verifying number of member states, including Germany, supported greenhouse gas emissions from international maritime the UK. transport; and facilitating a global hydrofluorocarbon Council conclusions were adopted on the preparations phase-down agreement under the Montreal protocol. for the 19th session of the conference of the parties to Under other business, Denmark also reintroduced the the United Nations framework convention on climate political declaration concerning the use of industrial change (the “Warsaw COP”). The Secretary of State for gas credits under the effort sharing decision which it Energy and Climate Change and ministerial colleagues had released in 2011. This was welcomed by a number focused their discussions on paragraphs relating to pre-2020 of member states including the UK. mitigation ambition and the process towards the new 2015 global agreement, including the UN Secretary General’s announcement to host a leaders’ summit in 2014. TRANSPORT There was a great deal of discussion on the importance of a timetable for the proposal of commitments for the new 2015 global agreement. The Secretary of State for Railway Rolling Stock: Luxembourg Rail Protocol Energy and Climate Change, supported by many colleagues, emphasised that the aim was to ensure countries left the Warsaw COP knowing they had to do their “homework” The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport on commitments in 2014. This was consistent with the (Mr Robert Goodwill): My noble Friend, the Minister of EU’s previous public statements proposing a stepwise State for Transport, Baroness Kramer, has made the approach to the 2015 agreement. Mr Davey also pressed following written ministerial statement: firmly for ministerial engagement on pre-2020 mitigation The Government have decided to opt in to the proposed ambition at the Warsaw COP. Conclusions meeting UK Council decision on the approval on behalf of the European objectives in these areas were adopted. Ministers then Union of the Luxembourg protocol to the convention on international broke for a working lunch, during which green infrastructure interests in mobile equipment on matters specific to rolling stock, adopted in Luxembourg on 23 February 2007. was discussed. The Luxembourg rail protocol is intended to facilitate the In the afternoon session the presidency introduced financing of high-value railway rolling stock by seeking to ensure the agenda item on carbon dioxide emissions from new protection, for example of a leasing company’s rights against passenger cars, inviting interventions from any member defaulters by a method of central registration, priority and common states who could not agree with or had misgivings about contractual terms. One of the purposes of this is to reduce the the text negotiated in June under the Irish presidency. costs of leasing contracts for rolling stock. The rail protocol does The German Minister for Environment, Nature this by providing an international mechanism whereby financial Conservation and Nuclear Safety, Peter Altmaier, explained interests in railway rolling stock may be registered in a central database. Where an interest is registered a rule of priority would he was committed to reaching a first reading agreement operate in favour of that interest, so protecting the investment on the basis of the previous trilogue discussions that where the operator of the rolling stock defaults on his obligations. accepted the target of 95g/km for 2020, but that allowed The financial interest is protected and recoverable except when some further limited flexibility. those financial interests rest in public service rolling stock in 53WS Written Statements30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 54WS respect of which an appropriate declaration has been made. relevant JHA provisions fall in an area of exclusive external Protecting an investment in this way increases the confidence of competence—as is the case here. The Government believe that the leasing companies, and could thereby lead to a reduction in costs UK opt in under the protocol to title V of the treaty on the for industry. functioning of the European Union applies and they have therefore The proposal has been published with a legal base falling asserted their right to choose whether to opt in; they have decided within title V of part three of the treaty on the functioning of the it is in the UK’s best interests to do so. European Union (TFEU)—Justice and Home Affairs (JHA) matters. The citation of a title V (JHA) legal base would usually The Government consider that the protocol is clearly advantageous mean that there would be universal acceptance that the UK’s to the UK and European rail industry, would provide greater JHA opt-in protocol applies and that the UK would therefore be security for the leasing companies of rolling stock, and would be free to choose whether to participate. However, the EU institutions beneficial both to borrowers by stimulating increased flows of do not accept that the JHA opt-in protocol applies when the capital at lower cost, and to equipment suppliers.

5P Petitions30 OCTOBER 2013 Petitions 6P

Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Local Petition Government Finance Settlement is unfair to rural communities; notes that the Rural Penalty sees urban Wednesday 30 October 2013 areas receive 50% more support per head than rural areas despite higher costs in rural service delivery; and opposes the planned freezing of this inequity in the 2013–14 settlement for six years until 2020. PRESENTED PETITION The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor Commons urges the Government to reduce the Rural Penalty in staged steps by at least 10% by 2020. Rural Fair Share Campaign And the Petitioners remain, etc. The Petition of the residents of the UK, [P001262]

463W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 464W

Brandon Lewis [holding answer 28 October 2013]: Written Answers to The information requested is as follows: Departmental spending Questions The Department’s gross spend on gas and electricity is set out in the following table, including figures for historic spend by comparison: Wednesday 30 October 2013 £ 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

LEADER OF THE HOUSE Electricity 505,425 424,286 422,803 536,449 493,309 Gas 135,889 71.027 39,138 36,474 88,567 Members: Employment These gross costs include energy used by the Graeme Morrice: To ask the Leader of the House if Department’s sub-tenants, and which is then recharged he will bring forward proposals in respect of the based on the floor space sub-let by the Department to regulation of hon. Members and second jobs. [900791] those tenants. The electricity costs increased in 2011-12 due to Mr Lansley: The Government have no plans to bring increased unit cost energy prices and additional forward such proposals. The Independent Committee consumption largely due to new tenants occupying on Standards in Public Life have previously recommended Eland House. However, these gross figures do not reflect that MPs should remain free to have paid employment the costs which were recharged back to the tenants, nor unrelated to their role as MPs, and that this is desirable the broader income from renting out empty office space. in performing their role (1st Report Committee on Standards Gas consumption increased in 2012-13 due to the cold in Public Life) winter/spring. It is important that there is transparency about what Energy efficiency MPs do, who pays them and for what. The House changed its rules before the last election to ensure that More broadly, as part of its energy efficiency programme, this detail is shown in the Register of Members’ Financial the DCLG Group (including agencies) has saved Interests. MPs are here to work for their constituents £1.3 million from its annual energy bill since 2009-10, and that should remain the principal purpose of all with a 41% reduction in its greenhouse gas emissions MPs elected to this place. from travel and energy use. I would note that under the last Administration, the Department’s main building (Eland House, Victoria) COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT was one of the least energy-efficient buildings in Whitehall, despite it being the lead Department on energy efficiency Cafes: Pedestrian Areas standards in buildings. In June 2011, the building was awarded a ‘D’ grade display energy certificate, having John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for improved from the equivalent ‘G’ grade in 2006-07. Communities and Local Government how many local authorities in the UK have street pavement café regulation The Department has sought to reduce its expenditure or licensing schemes in place. [172501] through adopting low and no cost energy efficiency measures, estate rationalisation (by using space more Brandon Lewis: My Department does not hold this efficiently and co-locating with other organisations), information. and by operating its remaining buildings even more efficiently. Energy efficiency measures have included: Charities Act 2006 Reducing out-of-hours energy consumption through stringent Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for time controls on building plant and machinery; Communities and Local Government what reports his Switching off services in unoccupied office areas; Department has laid before each House of Parliament Harmonising heating and cooling strategies to avoid plant pursuant to section 70(9) of the Charities Act 2006 in working against itself to heat and cool the same space; 2012-13. [172931] Maximising benefits of intelligent, demand-based building management systems and variable speed drive controls on Stephen Williams: Information on payments made to pumps and motors; charities in 2012-13 are set out in paragraphs 7.29 to Adoption of more energy efficient behaviours by building 7.31 of the Department’s 2012-13 Annual Report and occupiers, e.g. switching lights off unnecessary lighting. Accounts. These were laid in Parliament on 27 June 2013. Using automated meter reading (Smart meters) to monitor https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ and target energy reduction opportunities; attachment_data/file/245153/DCLG_2012- 13_combined_Annual_Report_and_Accounts_130923.pdf Introducing more efficient IT equipment such as multi-function devices and thin client computers; Energy Replacing lighting at end of life with high efficiency alternatives such as LEDs. Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what costs were Better procurement incurred by his Department’s estate in respect of (a) The Department procured its gas and electricity from gas and (b) electricity supply in the 2012-13 financial Corona Energy and EDF Energy, respectively, between year. [172648] 2010 and 2012. 465W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 466W

The Department now purchases its energy through (2) what steps he plans to take to reduce the amount Government Procurement Service frameworks which of street clutter on footpaths that creates obstacles for are typically for five year periods, and following extensive blind and partially sighted people. [172503] market competition and EU wide tender processes. The bulk of central Government energy is aggregated under Mr Goodwill: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Government Procurement Service frameworks, which the Department for Transport. enables the Government Procurement Service Energy Information relating to the number of pedestrian Team to actively engage directly with the energy markets injuries as a result of street clutter is not held centrally. to achieve best value and price for the taxpayer. The responsibility for the design and upkeep of footways The Government Procurement Service Energy Team rests with the relevant local authority, as they are best operates under strict, industry standard risk metrics placed to consider how local needs can be effectively and management guidelines and regularly matches or met. beats the annual market average prices. Aggregated this This Department has issued guidance for local authorities way, central Government is able to utilise its purchasing about best practice on access to pedestrian and transport power to best effect. infrastructure in “Inclusive Mobility”. Housing: Floods This contains advice on the provision of ’A’ boards and other street furniture such as waste bins, and is available to download at: Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what proportion https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/inclusive- of newly built properties were built on flood plains in mobility each year from 2008. [173012] The Department has also issued good practice guidance to local authorities on the design of traffic management Nick Boles: We are very clear in the National Planning features in Local Transport Note 1/08 ‘Traffic Management Policy Framework that inappropriate development in and Streetscape’ which is available to download at: areas at risk of flooding should be avoided. Local https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/local-transport- authorities should direct development away from areas notes at highest risk, but where development is necessary, it Property Development: Floods must be demonstrated that it is safe and will not increase flood risk elsewhere. Mr Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities The percentage of newly built properties in areas of and Local Government if he will bring forward legislative high flood risk in England in each year from 2008 to proposals to include lead flood authorities as statutory 2010 (the most recent available) is displayed in the consultees in all major planning applications. [172722] following table: Nick Boles: The Environment Agency has overall Percentage of new dwellings built within areas of high flood risk responsibility for managing flood risk in England and is currently a statutory consultee for planning applications 2008 9 in areas at risk of flooding, and for developments on 2009 11 land of 1 hectare or more. We are considering the 2010 9 arrangements for involving lead local flood authorities in the planning application process in the context of Parking: Pedestrian Areas finalising the new national planning practice guidance and taking forward the outcome of the Planning Administration Red Tape Challenge. Mr Barron: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent Notwithstanding, any interested party can make a representations he has received from local authorities representation on a planning application; it is not restricted on pavement parking. [172490] to statutory consultees. Social Rented Housing Brandon Lewis: My Department has not received any representations from local authorities on pavement parking. Mr Spencer: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government recognises that good and affordable Communities and Local Government what grants his parking provision can play an important role in rejuvenating Department has made to social housing providers to high streets and town centres. We want to make it easier improve the quality of their stock since May 2010; for people to park responsibly, and to encourage the which such providers have retained those grants; and spread of best practice on supporting town centres and what the amount was of each such grant. [172671] we have announced that we intend to bring forward proposals for consultation. Kris Hopkins: Since May 2010 DCLG has confirmed allocations of £2.1 billion to social housing providers, Pedestrian Areas: Safety to be paid by 2014-15. Of this, £1.6 billion is going to councils as ’decent homes backlog’ funding, and £500 John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for million to private registered providers as gap funding. Communities and Local Government (1) what assessment Gap funding is paid to private registered providers he has made of the number of pedestrian injuries as a when the expenditure required to bring the homes to result of street clutter on footpaths in the last (a) six the Decent Homes Standard is greater than the rental months, (b) year and (c) five years; [172502] income. DCLG provides the funds to bridge that gap. 467W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 468W

Details of council and private registered provider the 48 people who have been engaged by HS2 Ltd in the recipients respectively, together with the amounts to be last 12 months via personal service companies together paid between 2011 and 2015 to these bodies, and the with copies of their contracts. [172916] five private finance initiative contracts that have been signed by councils since May 2010, have been placed in Mr Goodwill: None of the 48 people engaged by HS2 the Library of the House. Ltd on personal service contracts were at the equivalent of senior civil service level. In line with normal practice, Swimming: Safety personal information is not released about those below the senior civil service. Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what steps his Level Crossings: Bassetlaw Department is taking to prevent unsafe swimming in disused quarries. [169849] John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Nick Boles: Unsupervised entry into active or disused (1) which wig wag level crossings in Bassetlaw constituency quarries leaves people vulnerable to the potential hazards use 36 watt lamps; [172504] that exist. Site operators of quarries have a general duty (2) how many wig wag level crossings have 36 watt to ensure the safety of quarry excavations and tips; and lamps; [172505] that once abandoned the quarry is left in a safe condition. (3) which wig wag level crossings in Bassetlaw have Failure to do so could lead to it being declared an been identified as having a problem from sunlight glare. environmental nuisance over which local authorities [172506] have enforcement powers under the Environmental Protection Act 1990. In addition, mineral planning Stephen Hammond: The Department for Transport authorities have a range of enforcement powers to does not hold the requested information about the ensure that quarries are restored to an acceptable standard. railway network. Requests for detailed operational or On cessation of working and following restoration, technical requirements should be made to: responsibility reverts back to the landowner. Network Rail The minerals industry is working hard to highlight Kings Place the dangers of entering quarries unsupervised, for example 90 York Way through the Minerals Product Association’s ″Stay Safe″ campaign working in conjunction with local communities London and teachers. N19AG Motorways: Lighting

TRANSPORT Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Charities Act 2006 Transport whether he has any plans to roll-out LED lighting on Britain’s motorway network; and if he will Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [172790] Transport what reports his Department has laid before each House of Parliament pursuant to section 70(9) of Mr Goodwill: The Highways Agency, which is responsible the Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. [172949] for road lighting on the English strategic road network, has no specific plans to roll-out LED lighting on its Mr Goodwill: The Department grants funding to motorways. Sustrans to deliver two cycling programmes under the The Highways Agency sets out its road lighting Charities Act 2006 (as amended): the Linking Communities requirements for those sections of motorway that need and the Cycle Safety programmes. A report for 2012-13 to be lit in an outcome based specification that neither is due to be laid shortly for the Linking Communities advocates nor excludes the use of any particular road programme. A report for the Cycle Safety programme is lighting technology. It is for the Agency’s service providers not due until autumn 2014. to select the lighting technology that offers best value for money. Energy In January of this year, the British Standard for road Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport lighting lowered the lighting level requirements for what costs were incurred by his Department’s estate in motorways to those used in most of Western Europe. respect of (a) gas and (b) electricity supply in the This makes LEDs a more viable proposition for motorways, consequently, it is predicted LEDs are likely to become 2012-13 financial year. [172796] the preferred choice in future years for new and replacement Stephen Hammond: The requested information is as motorway lighting schemes. follows: Parking: Pedestrian Areas (a) £1,633,478 (b) £6,030,535. Mr Barron: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport High Speed Two what assessment he has made of the risk to pedestrians posed by pavement parking. [172491] Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 22 October 2013, Official Mr Goodwill: The Department for Transport has Report, column 124W, on High Speed 2, if he will list made no specific assessment of these risks. 469W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 470W

In London there is a general ban on parking on the when such communications were received; and if he footway. However, in the rest of England there is no will make a statement; [172492] such prohibition. However, local authorities outside (4) what communication his Department had with London have wide-ranging powers to make Traffic the Welsh Government on his negotiating position prior Regulation Orders to prohibit pavement parking on to formal discussions with the European Commission designated lengths of highway or over a wide area. on the TEN-T infrastructure projects at the Transport Council in Brussels on 22 March 2012; and if he will publish Railways: Yorkshire and the Humber (a) such communications and (b) the Government’s negotiating position on this matter. [172493] Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent discussions (a) he and (b) officials Mr Goodwill: The Department for Transport has in his Department have had with rail companies operating had, and continues to have, regular communications in Yorkshire on (i) improving train punctuality, (ii) the with the European Commission and with the devolved frequency of rail services and (iii) local rail infrastructure Administrations on these matters. improvements. [172864] In October 2011 the European Commission published a set of draft regulations for TEN-T and an accompanying Stephen Hammond: Department officials monitor the Financial Instrument known as the ″Connecting Europe overall performance of train operators, includes monthly Facility″ (CEF). Prior to this, and throughout the meetings with their senior management where performance subsequent negotiations, my Department worked closely figures are reviewed. with the devolved Administrations to ensure that the Department officials are in regular discussions with UK had a co-ordinated position and to ensure that the East Coast, Northern Rail and First TransPennine Express outcome aligned as far as possible with the UK’s negotiating in regard to the frequency of rail services in Yorkshire objectives. Our main objectives included: in the context of the direct awards. Further discussions Pressing for indicative targets rather than binding deadlines; will take place as the Franchising programme progresses. Ensuring that member states rather than the European Commission remained responsible for transport planning and investment Network Rail chair a series of planning and development decisions on their national networks; meetings on a monthly basis covering infrastructure Ensuring that no additional financial or administrative burdens improvements in Yorkshire and the wider north of should be placed on member states or private sector transport England, in which Department officials are involved. operators; and Train operators are represented at these meetings. Pressing for Core Corridors and Corridor Coordinators to be optional rather than mandatory, focused on contentious cross- Severn River Crossing: Tolls border areas/projects, and with simplified governance and management proposals. Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for The CEF contains an indicative list of projects, which Transport at what level the tolls at the Severn Bridge is not legally binding. Projects on this list will only will be set from January 2014. [173254] receive TEN-T funding if they meet the relevant criteria and project time scales set by the Commission, and if Mr Goodwill: The tolls on the Severn Crossings are they demonstrate added value to the EU. This will amended each year in accordance with the rules set out remain a competitive process. in the Severn Bridges Act 1992. Every year the tolls are The development of the TEN-T Core Network is calculated from the September Retail Prices Index figure seen as the priority by the Commission. The Corridor is and then rounded to the nearest 10p. The toll levels a tool to help implement the development of the Core from 1 January 2014 will be: Network, particularly for co-ordinating cross-border Category 1: Cars and motor caravans—£6.40 (£6.20 in 2012) projects. The Department has therefore made no assessment of the routing of the Corridor as the priority is the Core Category 2: Small goods vehicles and small buses—£12.80 (£12.40 in 2012) Network. Category 3: Heavy goods vehicles and buses—£19.20 (£18.60 in 2012) The tolls levels will be confirmed in an Order made WALES by the Secretary of State in December. Charities Act 2006

Trans-European Networks Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what reports his Department has laid before each Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for House of Parliament pursuant to section 70(9) of the Transport (1) what recent communications his Department Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. [172951] has had with the European Commission regarding the TEN-T core and comprehensive projects; and if he will Stephen Crabb: The Wales Office has not laid any make a statement; [172488] reports in 2012-2013 under section 70(9) of the Charities (2) what assessment he has made of the effect of the Act 2006. omission of Wales from the routing of the TEN-T Energy corridor route through the UK to Ireland; and if he will make a statement; [172489] Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (3) what communications his Department has had what costs were incurred by his Department’s estate in with the European Commission regarding the routing respect of (a) gas and (b) electricity supply in the of the TEN-T corridor through the UK to Ireland; 2012-13 financial year. [172633] 471W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 472W

Stephen Crabb: The Wales Office incurred costs of I have also met the Police Federation of Northern £12,600 for electricity in 2012-13. The Department does Ireland. We discuss a range of subjects including the not have a direct contract for gas supply. number of Police Service of Northern Ireland officers. I have had no meetings or correspondence with the NI Policing Board regarding police numbers. NORTHERN IRELAND Public Records Army Reserve Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what assessment she has made of the relevance Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern of unreleased Northern Ireland Office historical documents Ireland what recent discussions she has had with the held at Swadlincote to the work of the Historical Enquiries Ministry of Defence about the recruitment of army Team in investigating cases from the past; and whether reservists in Northern Ireland. [172818] she plans to release these records to the National Archive under the Public Records Act 1958. [172830] Mrs Villiers: No meetings have taken place between Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office and the Ministry Mrs Villiers: There are no Northern Ireland Office of Defence on this issue. records held at Swadlincote. Charities Act 2006 Tobacco: Packaging

Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what reports her Department has laid before Ireland what discussions she has had with the Northern each House of Parliament pursuant to section 70(9) of Ireland Executive regarding the introduction of standardised the Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. [172946] packaging for cigarettes; and if she will make a statement. [172699] Mrs Villiers: None. Section 70(9) of the Charities Act 2006 does not extend to Northern Ireland. Mrs Villiers: I have not been asked by any Northern Energy Ireland Executive Minister to discuss standardised packaging for cigarettes. As this matter relates to the promotion of health I would expect any communication Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern between Whitehall and the Northern Ireland Executive Ireland what costs were incurred by her Department’s to be undertaken primarily between the Department of estate in respect of (a) gas and (b) electricity supply in Health and the Northern Ireland Department of Health, the 2012-13 financial year. [172795] Social Services and Public Safety. Mrs Villiers: My Department incurred the following costs in relation to gas and electricity supply in the 2012-13 financial year: WOMEN AND EQUALITIES

£ Charities Act 2006

(a) Gas 62,776 Lisa Nandy: To ask the Minister for Women and (b) Electricity 226,830 Equalities what reports the Government Equalities Office has laid before each House of Parliament pursuant to Parades Commission section 70(9) of the Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. [172939] Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many meetings she has had with (a) the Mrs Grant: The Government Equalities Office did Parades Commission and (b) individual members of not lay any reports, before either House of Parliament, the Parades Commission in 2013 to date. [171733] pursuant to section 70(9) of the Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. Mrs Villiers: I have met the full Parades Commission on one occasion and met individual members of the Commission on six occasions. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Police Service of Northern Ireland Charities Act 2006 Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent representations she has received Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, from (a) the Chief Constable of Police Service of Media and Sport what reports her Department has laid Northern Ireland, (b) the Police Federation and (c) the before each House of Parliament pursuant to section NI Policing Board on an increase in the number of 70(9) of the Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. [172932] Police Service of Northern Ireland officers. [172816] Mrs Grant: The Department for Culture, Media and Mrs Villiers: I hold regular meetings with the Chief Sport did not lay any reports, before either House of Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland Parliament, pursuant to section 70(9) of the Charities and we speak frequently by telephone. In addition Act 2006 in 2012-13. 473W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 474W

DEFENCE Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress Army: Germany has been made on the development of vaccines against TB for badgers and cattle; and when he expects these Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for vaccines to be ready for general use. [172666] Defence pursuant to the answer of 16 October 2013, Official Report, column 740, on army: Germany, what George Eustice: We remain committed to deliver the additional financial support his Department provided substantial programme of work set out in EU as a result of this re-basing to the local authorities in Commissioner Tonio Borg’s letter to the Secretary of which (a) Dalton Barracks, Abingdon, (b) Kendrew State dated 14 January 2013 and if we continue to Barracks, Cottesmore and (c) Imjin Barracks, remain on course we would expect to see the lifting of Gloucester are situated by category of expenditure. the ban on cattle vaccination by 2023. [172632] An injectable badger vaccine was licensed in 2010. While it could have a role to play in our strategy to Anna Soubry: We expect that rebasing the Army from eradicate bovine TB, it offers a range of protection so Germany will have a positive impact on the local economies that not all vaccinated badgers are fully protected and in these areas. neither does it cure already infected badgers. Additional funding will be made available to local We are investing in the development of an oral badger schools from the Department for Education through vaccine and bait delivery system but this work is still at the Service Pupil Premium. the research stage. The vaccine formulation will require a veterinary medicines authorisation and we cannot say Public Expenditure with any confidence when a usable vaccine might be ready for general use. Peter Luff: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what arrangements he has agreed with HM Treasury Floods: Housing for carrying over unspent CDEL and RDEL at the end of each financial year. [172467] Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Philip Hammond: In recognition of the improving Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many financial management of the Department, HM Treasury properties were judged to be at (a) significant and (b) have granted us the flexibility to carry forward our very significant risk of flooding in each year since RDEL and CDEL underspend from financial year 2008. [173009] (FY) 2012-13 into FYs 2013-14 and 2014-15. The details are published in the Ministry of Defence 2012-13 Annual Dan Rogerson: The following table lists the numbers Report and Accounts which is available on the GOV.UK of properties in areas of significant flood risk (one in 75 website at the following link: (1.3%) or greater chance of being flooded in any given year) in each year since 2008. Figures are from the https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/222874/MOD_AR13_clean.pdf Environment Agency’s National Flood Risk Assessment (NaFRA).

Total number of properties in areas of significant risk (England ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Year of assessment only)

Bovine Tuberculosis 2008 553,000 2009 531,000 Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State 2010-11 517,000 for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether the 2012 486,000 Independent Expert Panel has been asked to consider 2013 (August) 477,000 the possibility of humane gassing as part of the culls. [172387] Unlike areas of significant flood risk, areas of very significant flood risk (greater than 1 in 20 (5%) chance George Eustice: The panel has been appointed specifically of being flooded in any given year) have not been to look at the effectiveness, humaneness and safety of validated by local Environment Agency staff and are controlled shooting only. therefore not currently available. In December 2013 the Environment Agency are planning to publish new and Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for updated flood maps to meet the requirements of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what representations Flood Risk Regulations. The maps will show risk of or scientific advice he has received about the possible flooding from rivers and sea, reservoirs and for the first contribution of illegal killing of badgers to the 66 per time, surface water. The new maps will include areas of cent drop in badger numbers in the Gloucestershire and ’high risk’ where the likelihood of flooding is greater Somerset cull zones. [172512] than one in 30 (3.3%) in any given year.

George Eustice: No evidence has been received by Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for DEFRA regarding the possibility of illegal culling Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many properties contributing to the apparent reduction in the badger moved from (a) very significant and (b) significant to a population in the two pilot cull areas between 2012 and lower flood-risk category in each year since 2008. 2013. [173010] 475W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 476W

Dan Rogerson: The Environment Agency monitors measure OM2b records the number of houses moved the performance of its flood and coastal erosion risk from the very significant or significant probability category management programme using DEFRA outcome measures to the moderate or low probability category. (OMs). DEFRA outcome measure OM2 records the number of houses moved out of any flood probability The following table shows figures for OM2 and OM2b category to a lower probability category.DEFRA outcome in England in each year since 2008.

Outcome measure 2 Outcome measure 2b Number of houses moved from very significant or Number of houses moved to a lower flood risk category in significant to the moderate or low flood risk categories in England since 2008 England since 2008

2008-09 37,100 14,900 2009-10 67,300 12,800 2010-11 77,200 31,500 2011-12 41,600 15,700 2012-13 55,000 27,000 Total 279,000 101,900

Rabies James Brokenshire: [holding answer 24 October 2013]: Police forces and the Police Federation have recently Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State provided examples of police vehicles being used to for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he transport members of the public in need of urgent is taking to prevent rabies entering the UK. [172724] medical care. These examples highlight the demand placed upon police forces when they respond to incidents George Eustice: The UK operates a robust checking in place of an NHS ambulance. regime to make sure that animals entering the UK do The police should not have to respond in this way. not pose a risk to animal and human health. Ferry, rail Earlier this year the Secretary of State for the Home and air operators are licensed to carry pets on the basis Department announced a review of emergency ambulance that they check every pet they transport for compliance provision specifically around mental health crisis, to with the rules of the EU Pet Travel Scheme. Pet animals ensure that these individuals receive the right response brought into the UK for sale or rehoming are subject to from the right agency. Further, the Government will risk-based post import checks. support greater collaboration between the emergency The risk of an animal with rabies coming into the services to improve standards and drive out inefficiencies. UK is very low and the risk of rabies being passed from a pet to a person is lower still. Community Orders Sewers Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department how many and what proportion of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many victims chose to punish offenders by (a) a community sustainable urban drainage schemes were delivered in resolution and (b) formal prosecution in the last 12 months [173011] each year since 2008. for which information is available. [R] [172162] Dan Rogerson: These records are not held centrally. However, from April 2014 we plan to implement Schedule Damian Green: It is the role of the police or the 3 of the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, which Crown Prosecution Service to decide on an appropriate requires approved sustainable drainage systems to be resolution for reported crimes. These decisions are often registered by the Lead Local Flood Authority (LLFA). taken in consultation with the victims of crime, whose This will ensure that the number of approved sustainable views are taken into consideration. urban drainage systems within each LLFA is a matter of public record in the future. Energy

HOME DEPARTMENT Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what costs were incurred by her Ambulance Services Department’s estate in respect of (a) gas and (b) electricity supply in the 2012-13 financial year. [172646] John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent representations she has James Brokenshire [holding answer 28 October 2013]: received from police forces on the non-availability of The Home Office including its executive agencies incurred ambulances to fulfil requests for attendance at the following costs in respect of (a) gas and (b) electricity emergencies. [172234] supply in the 2012-13 financial year. 477W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 478W

Estate costs in respect of gas and electricity supply in the 2012-13 Officers from all other police forces have been invited financial year to apply to be seconded to the investigation, but applications £ have only been accepted from serving officers and former (a) Gas Directly invoiced by energy 1,140,136 officers who have no prior connection to previous suppliers Hillsborough investigations. (b) Electricity Directly invoiced by energy 5,744,078 suppliers Mental Illness (a) Gas and Purchase of Home Office 422,935 and Electricity Carbon Reduction Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for the (b) Commitment (CRC) allowances Home Department what steps she is taking to ensure under the CRC Energy that the (a) police and (b) emergency services have Efficiency Scheme (attributable to Home Office and its agencies sufficient training and resources to meet the needs of as at 31 March 2013) people with mental illness appropriately and respectfully. [172890]

European Convention on Human Rights Damian Green: The College of Policing provides national training and learning resources covering mental health, Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for the detention, restraint and vulnerability of individuals. Home Department what recent discussions she has Training is provided through the national police been having with her European counterparts on the curriculum and national learning resources are provided renegotiation of the non-refoulement aspect to to police officers and staff in all Home Office forces via Article 3 of the European Convention of Human the National Centre for Applied Learning Technology Rights since May 2010. [171987] (NCALT) Managed Learning Environment.

Mr Harper: The Government is committed to upholding Passports its international obligations towards those who need our protection. This includes respecting the principle of Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the non-refoulement by not removing a person to a place Home Department how many UK citizens held a British where they would face a real risk of persecution, or passport on 21 October 2013. [172246] torture or inhuman or degrading treatment. We continue to engage constructively with our European Mr Harper [holding answer 24 October 2013]: Her counterparts on all aspects of the European Convention Majesty’s Passport Office estimates there are 49.3 million on Human Rights to ensure that the right balance is valid passports in circulation as at 21 October 2013. struck between upholding the rights of individuals and The figure is based on the total number of passports ensuring the security of the public. issued in the last ten years and takes account that some of these passports would replace passports that had been lost or required replacing for other reasons. Firearms: Crime Police Federation of England and Wales Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make it her policy to Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for the gather information on the number of offences committed Home Department what estimate she has made of (a) involving (a) legally held and (b) illegally held firearms. cost savings and (b) the number of extra police officers [172737] able to be hired if police officer time spent on Police Federation business was not charged to the public Damian Green [holding answer 29 October 2013]: purse and paid for by the Police Federation. [172729] The Home Office will have discussions with the police about whether the current data collection should be Damian Green [holding answer 29 October 2013]: expanded. The Home Office has made no such estimate. The cost and deployment profile of police forces is a matter for Hillsborough Independent Panel chief constables and police and crime commissioners. The Police Federation has commissioned an independent review of its organisation and I will consider its findings, Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for the alongside the views of the Federation itself; before Home Department which police forces are expected to implementing any changes to the Police Federation. second investigators to Operation Resolve; and if she will ensure that no investigator who was involved in investigating the conduct of the police relating to Hillsborough in 1989 will be involved in that operation. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE [172650] Charities Act 2006 Mrs May [holding answer 28 October 2013]: When recruiting for the Operation Resolve investigation, the Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy application process made clear that applications would and Climate Change what reports his Department has not be accepted from police officers who have served or laid before each House of Parliament pursuant to were currently serving with the following forces—West section 70(9) of the Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, West Midlands or Merseyside. [172936] 479W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 480W

Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and We will be publishing a Small Business Strategy, Climate Change has not laid any reports before either setting out how the Government will make it easier for House of Parliament pursuant to section 70(9) of the micro and small businesses to grow. To develop the Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. strategy, we have consulted with entrepreneurs, small and micro business owners, and reviewed the support Green Deal Scheme provided by BIS, its partner organisations, and the rest of Government. We have invited them to tell us what Government should do more of, less of, and differently. Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Alongside this, we have reviewed the way that business Energy and Climate Change what target his Department support is provided in a number of other industrialised has set for the number of homes within the UK to take countries. out a Green Deal package. [172800] One of the issues raised by businesses is that Government Gregory Barker: As confirmed in the Government support needs to be more visible, so in early November response to the Energy and Climate Change Committee’s we will launch a campaign to inspire small and micro inquiry into the Green Deal, issued on 12 July, our businesses to grow, and to raise awareness of the support expectation for March 2015 is to see one or more energy available. efficiency and Green Deal improvement measures fitted in 1 million households, whether through the Energy Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Company Obligation, Green Deal finance or other financing Business, Innovation and Skills if he will assess the options (or, indeed, through combinations of these adequacy of the advice made available to businesses financing options pursued following a Green Deal employing fewer than 10 people by their bank. [173061] Assessment). Matthew Hancock: The Government recognises the Offshore Industry: Safety important role played by the private sector in supporting and advising small and micro businesses. Survey evidence indicates that awareness and the impact of this advice Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for could be improved and therefore we continue to work Energy and Climate Change what assessment his with the British Bankers’ Association (BBA) and the Department has made of the effects of the restructuring banks on how they engage with small businesses. of the Health and Safety Executive on the offshore oil and gas (a) industry and (b) workforce; and what The BBA as a result of collaboration with Government recent discussions on this issue his Department has had introduced the Better Business Finance Taskforce which made a number of commitments that the banks are with trades unions. [172496] currently implementing to improve the level of advice Mike Penning: I have been asked to reply on behalf of provided by banks to their customers. In addition, a the Department for Work and Pensions. number of banks are now bringing in formal accreditation for their relationship managers, which should further HSE’s offshore regulatory programmes and priorities improve the service that small businesses receive. are completely unaffected by the change and so there will be no adverse impacts on industry or the work Seema Malhotra: To ask the Secretary of State for force. Furthermore, HSE will be recruiting additional Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) businessmen offshore inspectors. and (b) businesswomen he has met in the last month. HSE has continued to meet regularly with trade [173092] union representatives since the creation of energy division. Senior managers from HSE’s energy division will meet Matthew Hancock: As the Secretary of State for with representatives of industry, trade unions and the Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member work force on 30 October 2013, at the industry body, for Twickenham (Vince Cable), meets so many businessmen Step Change in Safety’s Industry Leadership Safety and businesswomen it is impossible to give an accurate meeting in Aberdeen. figure. Business: Mental Illness

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is taking to support businesses to reduce the costs of Business poor mental health in its employees. [172701]

Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Jo Swinson: The Health and Work Assessment and Innovation and Skills (1) what recent assessment he has Advisory Service will help employees on, or expected to made of the adequacy of the support available for reach, a period of sickness absence lasting four weeks businesses employing fewer than 10 people provided by including mental health conditions, to return to work. his Department; [173060] We have also supported the Royal College of Psychiatrists (2) what assessment he has made of the support to produce an online information and guidance resource available in other countries to businesses employing to aid discussions about returning to work after a fewer than 10 people. [173088] period of mental ill health. The Gov.uk website also provides a range of links to additional guidance for Matthew Hancock: We repeatedly assess the adequacy employers to assist them in supporting employees with of support and compare internationally. health-related work issues (including mental health). 481W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 482W

Employment Appeal Tribunal to review how well our online services meet the current and likely future needs of users, both external and internal; Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, to review whether our arrangements for delivering online services Innovation and Skills what the costs incurred by his are fit for purpose and represent value for money; and Department to date are in pursuit of the appeal against to make recommendations. the decision of the Employment Appeals Tribunals in The Director of Service Delivery in the Department relation to the case of Usdaw v. Woolworths. [173059] of Information Services would be happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss these matters. Jo Swinson: Our own costs to date are in the region of £27,000 before VAT. We have undertaken to pay the Official Report: ICT respondent’s reasonable costs on a standard basis in the Court of Appeal. Dr Huppert: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Mental Illness: Discrimination Commons Commission, how much of the failed Hansard Reporting Suite 2 programme was built using Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for open-source software; and which commercial or Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department open-source software was in use when that programme is taking to encourage businesses to sign up to Time to was halted. [173085] Change through its health, work and wellbeing initiative. [172759] John Thurso: Parliamentary ICT always considers using open-source software as part of the production Norman Lamb: I have been asked to reply on behalf process when developing in-house systems. However, of the Department of Health. due to the methodologies used to develop a complex The Department of Health has refreshed its system such as HR2 it is not possible to divide the Responsibility Deal pledge on mental health and well-being software used into open source and commercial software. to cover important areas including stigma and The Director of Parliamentary ICT would be happy discrimination in the workplace. This pledge encourages to meet my hon. Friend to discuss these matters. signatories to support the ‘Time to Change’’ movement. Responsibility Deal pledges are actively promoted across a wide range of businesses. TREASURY Petrochemicals: Industry Business: Loans Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions Sir Andrew Stunell: To ask the Chancellor of the he has had with the Secretary of State for Energy Exchequer (1) for each of the years in which the and Climate Change about the future of the UK Independent External Reviewer to the Appeals Process petrochemical industry. [172663] for lending to small and medium-sized enterprise businesses has been operational, how many appeals against a Michael Fallon: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I decision to refuse loans to a business by a bank have gave to him on 28 October 2013, Official Report, column been (a) considered and (b) overturned by him; and 370W. what the distribution was of cases and outcomes between participating banks; [172664] (2) if he will make it his policy to require all banks to HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION notify in writing any business with a turnover of less than £25 million per annum that is refused a loan of its Internet Services Review right to have that decision reviewed by an independent member of staff and referred to the Independent Dr Huppert: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, External Reviewer to the Appeals Process for lending Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of to small and medium-sized enterprise businesses; and if Commons Commission, whether the current review of he will make a statement. [172665] PICT and Parliament’s internet presence will explicitly include a process review of internal services covered by Sajid Javid: In April 2011 the major UK banks (a) the Hansard Reporting Suite 2 project and (b) the established the Appeals Process as one of the 17 Procedural Business and Data Programmes. [173084] commitments of the Business Finance Taskforce. The process allows any business, with a turnover of up to John Thurso: A Strategic Review of Online Services is £25 million, which is declined any form of lending to being conducted on behalf of the two Houses by mySociety appeal that decision—for any reason—to the participating Ltd. This study will not explicitly include process review bank concerned. of the internal services covered by the former HRS2 If an appeal is raised, the decision will be reviewed by project nor any other projects that form part of the a second person from within the bank who was not Parliamentary Business Programme or its predecessor involved in the original decision. the Procedural Data Programme. Results from the first two years of the process show The review’s terms of reference are as follows: that in 40% of cases where a decline was appealed to review how well our online services meet the current and against, a lending agreement with which both parties likely future corporate objectives of the two Houses; were satisfied was reached. 483W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 484W

Child Benefit hearing on 31 March (a) 2010, (b) 2011, (c) 2012 and (d) 2013; and what steps he is taking to reduce these Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Chancellor of the figures. [168225] Exchequer if he will make it his policy to split child benefit between parents that have shared custody; and Mr Vara: I am responding to this question on behalf if he will make a statement. [172674] of the Ministry of Justice as the First-tier Tribunal (Tax Chamber) is part of HM Courts and Tribunals Service Nicky Morgan: Although splitting the support may (HMCTS). appear straightforward, the reality is likely to be quite The Ministry of Justice publishes data on tax appeals different. If, under current arrangements, parents cannot as Official Statistics in Tribunals Statistics Quarterly. agree who should receive the support, they are just as The data on the outstanding caseload for the financial unlikely to agree about how the payments should be years (a) 2009-10 (b) 2010-11, (c) 2011-12 and (d) split where more formal arrangements exist. 2012-13, as well as details of appeals received and Directing payment of child benefit to the person disposed of in the same periods, are available in Tribunal mainly responsible for looking after the children ensures Statistics (quarterly and annual—January to March2013/ that the money goes to the person most likely to be 2012-13), available at the following address: providing day to day care. Even where care of the child https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tribunal- is shared it is usually the case that there is one person statistics-quarterly-and-annual-jan-mar-2013-2012-13 that bears more of the weight of everyday responsibility At the end of June 2013 65% of the Tribunal’s for the child and meets the everyday expenditure. outstanding caseload were “on hold”pending the outcome The Government has already prioritised investing in of lead cases which are being considered either in the early education and child care to support all families, First-tier Tribunal, the Upper Tribunal or in the higher including those with separated parents, through: courts (e.g. Court of Appeal). It is, therefore, helpful to look at this information together with the data on extending the free entitlement to provide 15 hours a appeals received and disposed of in the same period. As week of free early education and child care for all lead cases are decided, those cases which have been put three and four-year-olds, and to 40% of two-year-olds “on hold” can themselves be progressed through the from lower income families; and system or decided appropriately. The number of cases providing 70% of child care costs through the working disposed of by the First-tier Tribunal in 2012-13 was tax credit and extending this support under universal 14% higher than the previous year and some of these credit to those working fewer than 16 hours a week. cases were ones which had been “on hold” pending the decision of a higher court. Republic of Ireland

Mr Dodds: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what financial assistance has been given to the Irish FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Republic in each year since 2010. [172819] Human Rights Sajid Javid: In accordance with the Loans to Ireland Act 2010, HM Treasury reports to Parliament every six Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for months with information on the UK’s bilateral loan to Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what measures Ireland. The loan of £3.2 billion (¤3.8 billion) was (a) have already been implemented and (b) are agreed in 2010 and disbursed in eight tranches of £403.7 planned to ensure that Government procurement takes million each; one in 2011, four in 2012 and three in account of human rights matters. [172643] 2013. The final tranche was disbursed on 26 September 2013. Mr Lidington: Government procurement process requires that human rights-related matters are appropriately The UK’s bilateral loan was provided as part of a considered when purchasing goods, works and services. broader Economic Adjustment Programme for Ireland, It allows for tenderers to be excluded from bidding for a which included a joint financing package of ¤67.5 billion contract in certain circumstances, including grave comprising contributions from the European Financial misconduct by a company where there are breaches of Stabilisation Mechanism (EFSM) of ¤22.5 billion, an human rights. As part of the UK’s newly launched additional ¤17.5 billion from euro area member states Action Plan on Business and Human Rights, the under the European Financial Stability Facility (EFS-F) Government has made a commitment to review State as well as funding from the IMF of ¤22.5 billion. There contracting and purchasing of goods and services, and were also bilateral contributions from Sweden and Denmark make recommendations to ensure that these are executed of ¤0.6 billion and ¤0.4 billion respectively. Excluding with respect for human rights. the UK’s bilateral loan, ¤33.89 billion was disbursed in 2011, followed by ¤20.22 billion in 2012 and ¤6.36 billion Middle East in 2013 with further disbursements to be made later this year. Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether Israel’s Taxation: Appeals renewal of co-operation with the United Nations Council for Human Rights would require a commitment by the Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the UK and other Western European states not to discuss Exchequer how many cases investigated by HM Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories within Revenue and Customs were awaiting a tax tribunal article 7 discussions. [173062] 485W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 486W

Hugh Robertson: I am pleased that since the hon. and chair the organisation for two years thereafter was Member’s question, Israel announced on 27 October taken in 2009 in the Port of Spain. There has been no that it will be take part in the Universal Periodic Review widespread support from Commonwealth members to process. change that decision. We have made clear to Sri Lanka, as CHOGM host and forthcoming Chair, that we expect Overseas Trade: Human Rights it to live up to Commonwealth values.

Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Bob Blackman: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which countries Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is the Overseas Business Risk register currently gives no taking to encourage the Sri Lankan Government to specific human rights information on; and when that uphold human rights law. [172848] information will be included for each such country. [172641] Mr Swire: We continue to have serious concerns about the human rights situation in Sri Lanka. Mr Swire: The Overseas Business Risk web-based We have consistently and actively pressed, including service provides information on risk and security related at ministerial level, for progress on human rights, issues in a wide selection of markets. reconciliation and accountability through our engagement Of the country pages currently on the website there is with the Sri Lankan Government, the Commonwealth, no human rights information for Barbados, Bulgaria, the UN Human Rights Council and in contact with Poland and Ukraine. We are currently undertaking an other states. exercise to update all country pages, and to include When visiting Sri Lanka for the Commonwealth additional markets, to ensure all have a human rights Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM) we will take section. There is already generic advice for business on a tough message to the Sri Lankan Government that the website on human rights issues. they need to make concrete progress on human rights, reconciliation and political settlement. Ahead of the Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for meeting we have been clear that we expect unrestricted Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to access for media and non-governmental organisations the document, Good business: implementing the UN (NGOs) attending CHOGM. Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights, published in September 2013, when he plans to begin Bob Blackman: To ask the Secretary of State for the review of the activities of UK state-owned, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions controlled or supported enterprises and of state his Department has held with civil society organisations contracting and purchasing of goods and services to in the Northern Province of Sri Lanka on the political ensure compliance with the UN Guiding Principles on and security situation in that country. [172849] Business and Human Rights. [172642] Mr Swire: Officials in our high commission in Colombo Mr Lidington: We are working work with the cross- regularly discuss the political and security situation in Whitehall steering group on business and human rights Sri Lanka with civil society organisations in the Northern to identify appropriate Department leads and to co-ordinate Province. They also frequently raise these issues with Government efforts on the commitments made in the international organisations and humanitarian agencies UK Action Plan: Good Business. The group has not yet as well as with Colombo based civil society organisations agreed the timing of the planned review of state-owned and the Sri Lankan authorities. and contracted enterprises and state purchasing of goods and services with regards to respect for human rights. We plan to publish a report on our progress by the end of 2015. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Sri Lanka Baha’i Faith

Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Neil Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if at the forthcoming International Development what steps she is taking to Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting he will promote human rights for Baha’i communities through (a) condemn Sri Lanka’s human rights record and (b) (a) her Department’s programmes and (b) the United take steps to oppose Sri Lanka becoming Chair of the Nations. [172499] Commonwealth. [172702] Lynne Featherstone: The UK recognises that human Mr Swire: We remain concerned at the human rights rights underpin sustainable development. DFID works situation in Sri Lanka. During the Commonwealth closely with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in Heads of Government meeting (CHOGM) the Prime promoting freedom of religion and belief worldwide. Minister, the Secretary of State for Foreign and DFID funds the United Nations Office of the High Commonwealth Affairs, and I will see the situation on Commissioner for Human Rights but the UK’s the ground in Sri Lanka and deliver clear messages to development and humanitarian aid is not targeted at the Sri Lanka Government that concrete progress is specific groups but at the poorest, regardless of race, needed on human rights. religion or creed. In the Commonwealth, the country which hosts However, minorities and excluded groups are often CHOGM also takes on the role of Chair-in-Office. The among the poorest within their communities, and so we decision that Sri Lanka should host CHOGM in 2013 work to ensure that the most vulnerable are benefitting 487W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 488W from UK aid. For example, we are working with minority enable greater efficiency in public services—at the Open religious groups to ensure inclusive and sustainable Government Partnership (OGP) Annual Summit on poverty reduction in Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and 31 October/1 November. India. We will also publish the second UK National Action DFID’s partnership principles require that before Plan (NAP) at the OGP Summit, setting out ambitious providing direct support to Governments, we assess transparency commitments of all types, e.g. on tax, their shared commitment to respecting the human rights beneficial ownership, extractives, land, open data and of citizens, including freedom of religion and belief. In more. 2011, DFID developed Faith Partnership Principles outlining our approach to working with faith groups to Fraud, Error and Uncollected Debt overcome poverty. 10. Nadhim Zahawi: To ask the Minister for the CDC Cabinet Office what progress his Department has made on tackling fraud, error and uncollected debt in public Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for sector contracts. [900790] International Development what recent steps she has taken to increase the role of the Commonwealth 11. Karl McCartney: To ask the Minister for the Development Corporation in supporting entrepreneurship Cabinet Office what progress his Department has made in developing countries. [172590] on tackling fraud, error and uncollected debt in public sector contracts. [900792] Mr Duncan: Under a new five year strategy approved in May 2012, CDC’s new investments will focus solely Mr Maude: Last year the Government saved the on supporting the growth of businesses and job creation taxpayer £6.5 billion through reducing fraud, error and across Africa and South Asia. CDC now invests particularly debt. This programme is co-ordinated by the Cabinet in the harder places, where the private sector is weak Office. and jobs are scarce, and in sectors where growth leads to most jobs, such as manufacturing, agribusiness, British Nationals Abroad: EU Countries infrastructure, financial institutions, construction, health and education. Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet In 2012, CDC was supporting over 1,200 businesses Office what estimate he has made of the number of in 77 countries, which are providing over 1 million jobs. British citizens who were living in other European Recent CDC investments include Export Trading Group, countries in (a) 1991, (b) 2001, (c) 2011 and (d) 2013 a pan-African agribusiness company employing over to date; and if he will make a statement. [173108] 7,000 people and supporting hundreds of thousands of small farmers; and Au Financiers, a non-bank finance Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the company in India specialising in providing finance to responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have entrepreneurs for the acquisition of small and medium-sized asked the authority to reply. commercial vehicles. Letter from Glen Watson, dated October 2013: Developing Countries: Females As Director General for the Office for National Statistics (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking the Minister for the Cabinet Office, what estimate he has Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for made of the number of British citizens who were living in other International Development what steps she intends to European countries in (a) 1991, (b) 2001, (c) 2011 and (d) 2013 to take to ensure that women’s equality and empowerment date; and if he will make a statement. [173108] are part of the post-2015 international development ONS does not collect information regarding British citizens agenda. [173026] resident in other EU countries, However, Eurostat publishes figures on population by citizenship for EU countries, these are Justine Greening: I refer the hon. Member to the available at: answer I gave to the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/ Burt) on 24 October 2013, Official Report, column population/data/database 269W. ONS produces estimates of Long-Term International Migration flows which are primarily based on the International Passenger Survey (IPS). Detailed information on countries of next residence of emigrants from the UK is available for 1975 to 2011 using the IPS component of these estimates. Published estimates on the CABINET OFFICE Top 10 countries of next residence for emigrants who are British citizens can be found in our Series 3 tables (3.20b) on the ONS Transparency Agenda website at: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration1/long-term- 9. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Minister for the international-migration/2011/3-20abc-ips-top-countries-of- Cabinet Office what recent steps he has taken to develop last-or-next-residence-by-citizenship--1975-2011.xls his Department’s transparency agenda. [900789] British Nationals Abroad: Higher Education Mr Hurd: We will publish the first draft of the UK National Information Infrastructure (NII)—a list of Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the datasets held by Government Departments with the Office what estimate he has made of the number of UK broadest potential to add economic or social value or citizens who were studying in further and higher 489W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 490W education institutions in other European countries in Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the (a) 1991, (b) 2001, (c) 2011 and (d) 2013 to date; and responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have if he will make a statement. [173109] asked the authority to reply. Letter from Joe Grice, dated October 2013: Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the As Director-General for the Office for National Statistics, I responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asked the authority to reply. asking what the level of happiness was in each local authority Letter from Glen Watson, dated October 2013: area in each year for which data is available. (173133) As Director General for the Office for National Statistics Personal well-being estimates at local authority level are available (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question from the Annual Population Survey personal well-being datasets asking the Minister for the Cabinet Office, what estimate he has for the years 2011/12 and 2012/13. made of the number of UK citizens who were studying in further In October 2013, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) and higher education institutions in other European countries in published a report entitled ’Personal Well-being Across the UK, (a) 1991, (b) 2001, (c) 2011 and (d) 2013 to date; and if he will 2012/13’. Estimates from the question ’Overall, how happy did make a statement. [173109] you feel yesterday?’ were published at local authority level in ONS does not collect information regarding the number of supporting reference tables for both years for which the data are UK citizens studying in further and higher education institutions available. in other EU countries. However, the European Commission The report and reference tables are available from the following publishes figures on students studying abroad as part of the weblink: Erasmus programme these are available at: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/wellbeing/measuring-national- http://ec.europa.eu/education/erasmus/statistics_en.htm well-being/personal-well-being-across-the-uk--2012-13/ The United Nations Education, Scientific and Cultural index.html Organisation (UNESCO) publishes statistics on the global flow of further and higher education students. These are available at: Hearing Impairment http://www.uis.unesco.org/education/Pages/international- student-flow-viz.aspx Dr Huppert: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what work his Department is co-ordinating across Energy Government on deaf communication and language support. [173005] Chris Leslie: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what costs were incurred by his Department’s Mr Hurd: It is for individual Government Departments estate in respect of (a) gas and (b) electricity supply in to determine what support people who are deaf, hard of the 2012-13 financial year. [172635] hearing or speech impaired require. However, the Cabinet Office’s work to redesign services Mr Maude: The amount spent by the Cabinet Office and make them digital by default will make it much on electricity and gas in 2012-13 is available in the easier for those who are deaf or hard of hearing to Cabinet Office annual report and accounts at: access information and public services. Gov.uk is already https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ an important repository of information, replacing the attachment_data/file/225980/HC_15.pdf websites of individual departments. Our work to digitise services continues apace and the first wave of 25 exemplar Government Departments: Procurement services will go live by 2015.

Seema Malhotra: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet High Speed 2 Railway Line Office what proportion of Government contracts awarded since May 2010 were awarded to (a) male-owned small Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) and (b) female- Office when the Major Projects Authority Report into owned SMEs. [172627] High Speed 2 will be published in full. [900788]

Mr Hurd: We do not hold the information requested. Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office has already published project-level information on all of the Government’s Mr Bain: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office major projects in May. An update will be published next what steps he can take to terminate a contract for a year. Government service entered into with a private sector entity in situations where concerns emerge about the New Businesses commercial or other practices of that entity or its corporate group in other countries in which it operates. Toby Perkins: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet [173283] Office how many new businesses were registered in each (a) parliamentary constituency and (b) region of Mr Hurd: Individual contracts contain clauses covering the UK in each month since January 2008. [173350] the conditions under which the contract may be terminated. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Health responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Letter from Joe Grice, dated October 2013: Office what the level of happiness was in each local As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I authority area in each year for which data is available. have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question [173133] asking the Secretary of State for Business Innovation and Skills 491W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 492W the number of new businesses registered in each (a) parliamentary (4) what the cost to the public purse has been in each constituency and (b) region of the UK in each month since of the last four years of UK compliance with Council January 2008. [173350] Framework Decision 2009/948/JHA; [173095] These data are not produced monthly, however, data on the number of business births are published annually in the ONS (5) how many requests for confirmation the UK has release on Business Demography at: (a) made and (b) received in each of the last four http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/bus-register/business- years as a result of Article 5 of Council Framework demography/index.hml Decision 2009/948/JHA; whether each of these The latest data available are for 2011. Data for 2012 will be requests received a response which was compliant with available on 27th November 2013. Article 9 of the Framework Decision; and how quickly The attached tables show the number of new businesses registered each such response was given. [173096] in each parliamentary constituency and region for the years 2008 to 2011. The data are taken from the Inter Departmental Business Mr Vara: Council Framework Decision 2009/948/JHA Register (IDBR) and show the number of new businesses that was due to be implemented in all member states by have registered for VAT and/or PAYE. These numbers do not 15 June 2012. We have not implemented it pending the include very small businesses, typically those below the threshold outcome of the 2014 Decision, of which this measure for VAT and PAYE. A copy of the tables will be stored in the forms a part. Consequently, there have been no cases Library of the House. arising under its terms and no associated costs. The Government has since indicated it will not seek to rejoin this measure and does not currently intend to take any JUSTICE steps to implement this Framework Decision. Billing The practices provided for by the Framework Decision are already generally established within the UK and Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice effective co-operation is already commonplace between how many invoices were processed by his Department the competent authorities of the UK and those of other in the last financial year which figures are available. member states, We would expect these practices and that co-operation to continue, even if the UK is not [171198] bound by this Framework Decision. Mr Vara: During financial year 2012-13 the Ministry Feltham Young Offender Institution of Justice paid a total of 618,813 invoices. This figure covers core MOJ including HMCTS and NOMS. Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Charities Act 2006 what assessment he has made of the report by the Inspectorate of Prisons on HMP Young Offenders Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Institution Feltham, published in January 2013, and what reports his Department has laid before each the effectiveness of the rehabilitation of young men House of Parliament pursuant to section 70(9) of the imprisoned there. [172469] Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. [172944] Jeremy Wright: I note the chief inspector’s concerns Mr Vara: The Ministry of Justice did not lay any about the levels of violence among young people held at reports before Parliament pursuant to section 70(9) of HMYOI Feltham. The National Offender Management the Charities Act 2006 during the parliamentary Session Service (NOMS) is taking steps to improve performance 2012-13. in all areas to ensure that we are able to appropriately rehabilitate the young people held there and to keep EU Justice and Home Affairs them safe. Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for This Government’s vision is to transform youth custody Justice (1) if the Government will seek to continue to place education at the heart of it to equip young without change the information exchange and co-operation people with the skills, qualifications and self-discipline with other EU member states established by Council they need to re-engage with education, training or Framework Decision 2009/948/JHA if the UK ceases to employment on release and stop offending. be bound by that Framework Decision pursuant to Hunting Act 2004 Article 10 of the Protocol on Transitional Provisions annexed to the EU treaties; how such information exchange and co-operation will be maintained; and what assessment Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice he has made of whether this information exchange and (1) how many people were (a) proceeded against and co-operation will be maintained; [173091] (b) convicted of offences under the Hunting Act 2004 in 2012; and if he will make a statement; [171057] (2) in how many cases in each of the last four years UK authorities have conducted consultations with (2) how many people were (a) proceeded against and authorities of one or more other EU member state as a (b) convicted of offences under the Wild Animals result of Article 10 of Council Framework Decision (Protection) Act 1996 in 2012; and if he will make a 2009/948/JHA; what the outcome of such consultations statement; [171058] was in each case; and what his assessment is of how (3) how many people were (a) proceeded against and useful this co-operation has been to the UK; [173093] (b) convicted of offences under the Deer Act 1991 in (3) which requirements of Council Framework 2012; and if he will make a statement; [171059] Decision 2009/948/JHA have not been implemented by (4) how many people were (a) proceeded against and the UK; and what measures the UK would need to take (b) convicted of offences under the Badgers Act 1991 to implement these requirements; [173094] in 2012; and if he will make a statement. [171060] 493W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 494W

Damian Green: The number of defendants proceeded Judges against at magistrates courts and offenders found guilty at all courts of selected offences under the Hunting Act Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2004, the Wild Mammals (Protection) Act 1996, the (1) how many new deputy district judges appointments Deer Act 1991 and the Protection of Badgers Act 1992, in 2010 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian in England and Wales, in 2012, can be viewed in the and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of table. Oxford or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at The Government is committed to tackling crimes other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all against wildlife. The Partnership for Action Against other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and Wildlife Crime, chaired by a senior DEFRA officer and (i) Queen’s Counsel; [172556] a senior police officer, is a multi-agency body comprising (2) how many new district judges (County Courts) representatives of the Government and voluntary bodies appointments in 2010 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) with an interest in combating wildlife crime. It works black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the hard to support the police and other law enforcement University of Oxford or University of Cambridge, agencies who have primary responsibility for enforcing (e) educated at other Russell Group universities, wildlife controls. (f) educated at all other universities, (g) solicitors, Government contributes funding to the UK National (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel; [172557] Wildlife Crime Unit, further demonstrating its commitment (3) how many new recorders appointments in 2010 to tackling wildlife crime. The NWCU assists in the were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and minority prevention and detection of wildlife crime, by obtaining ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Oxford or and disseminating intelligence, by undertaking analysis, University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other Russell and by directly assisting law enforcement agencies in Group universities, (f) educated at all other universities, wildlife crime investigations. Funding for the NWCU (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel; has been confirmed until March 2014. [172558] Please note, the Protection of Badgers Act 1992 consolidated (4) how many new circuit judges appointments in the Badger Act 1991 and other Acts involving offences 2010 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and against badgers. Also, offences involving dogs under the minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Oxford Protection of Badgers Act 1992 cannot be separately or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other analysed from offences under the Dangerous Dogs Act Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all other 1991, and are excluded from the figures presented. universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and offenders Counsel; [172559] found guilty at all courts of selected offences1 under the Hunting Act (5) how many new deputy masters, deputy registrars, 2004, the Wild Animals (Protection) Act 1996, the Deer Act 1991 and deputy cost judges and deputy district judges appointments 2, 3 the Protection of Badgers Act 1992, in England and Wales, 2012 in 2010 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and Proceeded minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Oxford Statute against Found guilty or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other Hunting Act 2004 84 48 Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all other Wild Mammals (Protection) Act 2—universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s 1996 Counsel; [172560] Deer Act 1991 10 8 (6) how many new masters, registrars, costs judges Protection of Badgers Act 1992 64 31 and district judges appointments in 2010 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and minority ethnic, ’-’ = Nil 1 Includes offences under SS.1 and 6; 3(1) and 6; 3(2) and 6; .5(1)(a) (d) educated at the University of Oxford or University and 6; S(1)(b) and 6; 5(1)(c) and 6; .5(1){d) and 6; 5(2)(a) and 6; of Cambridge, (e) educated at other Russell Group 5(2)(b) and 6; 5(2)(c) and 6 Hunting Act 2004. universities, (f) educated at all other universities, (g) Includes offences under SS.1 and 5 Wild Mammals (Protection) Act solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel; 1996. [172561] Includes offences under SS. 1 (2)(a); 1 (2)(b); 1 (2)(c) and 9; 1 (4) and 9; 2(1) and 9; 3 and 9; 4(1 )(a) and 9; 4(1)(b) and 9; 4(2)(a) and 9; (7) how many new deputy judge advocates appointments 4(4)(a) and 9; 4(4)(b) and 9; 5(1) and 9; 5(2) S 9; 10(3)(a); 10(3)(b); in 2010 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and 1(2)(b) and 9; 1(2)(a) and 9; 11(6); 11(7)(a); 11(7)(b); 1(2)(a) and 9; minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Oxford 10(3)(a) and 9; 10(3){b) and 9; 4(2)(b) and 9; 4(2)(c) and 9 Deer Act 1991. or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other Includes offences under SS. 1(1); 1(3); 2(l)(a); 2(l)(b); 2(l)(c); 2(l)(d); Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all other 3(a): 3(b); 3(c); 3(d);3(e); 4; 5; 1(3); 2(l)(b); 2(l)(d); 10(8); 1(5); 3; universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s 2(1)(b); 2(1 )(d); 1(3); 10(8) Protection of Badgers Act 1992. Counsel; [172562] 2 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. (8) how many new judge advocates appointments in When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is 2010 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed for two or more minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory Oxford or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at maximum penalty is the most severe. other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by (i) Queen’s Counsel; [172563] the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken (9) how many new High Court judges appointments to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. in 2010 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian Source: and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Justice Statistics Analytical Services • Ministry of Justice. Oxford or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at 495W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 496W other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all (e) educated at other Russell Group universities, other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (f) educated at all other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) (i) Queen’s Counsel; [172564] barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel; [172575] (10) how many new deputy district judges (County (19) how many new deputy district judges appointments Courts) appointments in 2011 were (a) male, (b) female, in 2012 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and (c) black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) educated at minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Oxford the University of Oxford or University of Cambridge, or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other (e) educated at other Russell Group universities, Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all other (f) educated at all other universities, (g) solicitors, universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel; [172566] Counsel; [172576] (11) how many new district judges (County Courts) (20) how many new district judges appointments in appointments in 2011 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) 2012 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of University of Oxford or University of Cambridge, (e) Oxford or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at educated at other Russell Group universities, (f) other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all educated at all other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel; [172567] Queen’s Counsel; [172577] (12) how many new recorders appointments in 2011 (21) how many new recorders appointments in 2012 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and minority minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Oxford or Oxford or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other Russell other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all Group universities, (f) educated at all other universities, other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel; (i) Queen’s Counsel; [172568] [172578] (13) how many new circuit judges appointments in (22) how many new circuit judges appointments in 2011 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and 2012 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Oxford or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at Oxford or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and Queen’s Counsel; [172569] (i) Queen’s Counsel; [172579] (14) how many new deputy masters, deputy registrars, deputy cost judges and deputy district judges appointments Mr Vara: A more diverse judiciary is important in in 2011 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and retaining the public’s confidence and trust in justice, minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Oxford and better reflecting the society it serves. This Government or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other has made a number of changes through the Crime and Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all other Courts Act 2013 that we believe will promote judicial universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s diversity. We have introduced part time working in the Counsel; [172570] senior courts, including the Supreme Court, we have (15) how many new masters, registrars, costs judges enabled the equal merit provision for judicial appointments and district judges appointments in 2011 were (a) to allow protected characteristics to be taken into account male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and minority ethnic, where two applicants are of equal merit, and a statutory (d) educated at the University of Oxford or University duty for the Lord Chancellor and Lord Chief Justice to of Cambridge, (e) educated at other Russell Group encourage judicial diversity. universities, (f) educated at all other universities, (g) There were no new deputy master, deputy registrar, solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel; deputy cost judge and deputy district judge appointments [172571] in 2010 or 2011. (16) how many new deputy judge advocates There were no new deputy judge advocate appointments appointments in 2011 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) in 2010 or 2011. black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the There were no new recorder appointments in 2011. University of Oxford or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other Russell Group universities, (f) There were no new judge advocate appointments educated at all other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) in 2011. barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel; [172572] There were no new deputy district judge appointments (17) how many new judge advocates appointments in in 2012. 2011 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and The data requested concerning new appointments for minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of the other judicial offices are not routinely published and Oxford or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at will require extraction from the Judicial Database. I will other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all write to the right hon. Member when it becomes available. other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel; [172573] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (18) how many new Lord Justices of Appeal (1) how many new High Court judges appointments in appointments in 2011 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) 2012 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of University of Oxford or University of Cambridge, Oxford or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at 497W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 498W other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all and will require extraction from the Judicial Database. other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) I will write to the right hon. Member when it becomes Queen’s Counsel; [172747] available. (2) how many new judge advocates appointments in Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2012 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and (1) how many new Lord Justices of Appeal minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Oxford appointments in 2012 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all other University of Oxford or University of Cambridge, universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s (e) educated at other Russell Group universities, Counsel; [172748] (f) educated at all other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) (3) how many new deputy judge advocates appointments barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel; [173099] in 2012 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and (2) how many new Lord Justices of Appeal appointments minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Oxford in 2010 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and or the University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Oxford Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all other or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all other Counsel; [172749] universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel; [172565] (4) how many new masters, registrars, costs judges and district judges appointments in 2012 were (a) male, (3) how many new High Court judges appointments (b) female, (c) black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) in 2011 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian educated at the University of Oxford or the University and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of of Cambridge, (e) educated at other Russell Group Oxford or University of Cambridge, (e) educated at universities, (f) educated at all other universities, (g) other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel; other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and [172750] (i) Queen’s Counsel. [172574] (5) how many new deputy masters, deputy registrars, Mr Vara: A more diverse judiciary is important in deputy cost judges and deputy district judges retaining the public’s confidence and trust in justice, appointments in 2012 were (a) male, (b) female, (c) and better reflecting the society it serves. This Government black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the has made a number of changes through the Crime and University of Oxford or the University of Cambridge, Courts Act 2013 that we believe will promote judicial (e) educated at other Russell Group universities, (f) diversity. We have introduced part-time working in the educated at all other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) senior courts, including the Supreme Court, we have barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel. [172751] enabled the equal merit provision for judicial appointments to allow protected characteristics to be taken into account where two applicants are of equal merit, and a statutory Mr Vara: A more diverse judiciary is important in duty for the Lord Chancellor and Lord Chief Justice to retaining the public’s confidence and trust in justice, encourage judicial diversity. and better reflecting the society it serves. This Government I committed to write to the right hon. Member in has made a number of changes through the Crime and relation to PQs 172565 and 172574 and this forms the Courts Act 2013 that we believe will promote judicial response to those previous questions and the latest one, diversity. We have introduced part time working in the PQ 173099. senior courts, including the Supreme Court, we have Data on gender and ethnicity has been extracted enabled the equal merit provision for judicial appointments from the Judicial Database. to allow protected characteristics to be taken into account where two applicants are of equal merit, and a statutory The Judicial Office does not collect data on educational duty for the Lord Chancellor and Lord Chief Justice to backgrounds of Judicial Office holders. encourage judicial diversity. Any appointment as Queen’s Counsel is subsumed by the more senior appointment on elevation to the There were no new judge advocate appointments Court of Appeal or High Court. However, it is possible made in 2012 and no new deputy judge advocate to confirm that all justices of the Court of Appeal appointments made in 2012. There were no new deputy appointed in 2010, 2011 and 2012 are also Queen’s master, deputy registrar, deputy cost judge and deputy Counsel. district judge appointments in 2012. Data on gender, BAME, profession and Queen’s The data requested concerning new appointments Counsel for new Lord Justices of Appeal appointed in for the other judicial offices are not routinely published 2010, 2011 and 2012 are as follows:

Black, Asian New Lord and Minority Justices of Ethnic Appeal Male Female (BAME) Solicitor Barrister QC

2010431004 4

2011541005 5

2012330003 3 499W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 500W

Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice During the last five years mental health training (1) what proportion of deputy district judges working provided to NOMS staff has changed, and has been in magistrates’ courts were (a) male, (b) female, (c) recorded in different ways using a number of different black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the systems. university of Oxford or university of Cambridge, Currently, centrally recorded information about training (e) educated at other Russell Group universities, completed cannot be provided by grade. In this instance (f) educated at all other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) to provide you with accurate information would involve barristers and (i) Queen’s counsel in each year since identifying and contacting sources of information 2003; [173101] in many different locations and would thus incur (2) what proportion of district judges working in disproportionate cost. magistrates’ courts were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for university of Oxford or university of Cambridge, (e) Justice how many and what proportion of prison educated at other Russell Group universities, (f) officer trainees have received training in mental health educated at all other universities, (g) solicitors, as part of their basic training in each of the last five (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s counsel in each year years. [172296] since 2003; [173102] (3) what proportion of deputy district judges at a Jeremy Wright: Since April 2008 all of the 3,040 county court level were (a) male, (b) female, (c) prison officers, who have successfully completed their black, Asian and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the initial operational training, received training in mental university of Oxford or university of Cambridge, health awareness. This awareness course provides officers (e) educated at other Russell Group universities, with an understanding of mental health disorders and (f) educated at all other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) how to respond effectively to prisoners experiencing barristers and (i) Queen’s counsel in each year since mental ill health. The number of prison officers who 2003. [173103] competed this training in each of the last five years is shown in the following table: Mr Vara: A more diverse judiciary is important in Number of officers completed retaining the public’s confidence and trust in justice, Initial training and better reflecting the society it serves. This Government has made a number of changes through the Crime and April 2008 to March 2009 1193 Courts Act 2013 that we believe will promote judicial April 2009 to March 2010 589 diversity. We have introduced part time working in the April 2010 to March 2011 790 senior courts, including the Supreme Court, we have April 2011 to March 2012 273 enabled the equal merit provision for judicial appointments April 2012 to March 2013 195 to allow protected characteristics to be taken into account Total 3,040 where two applicants are of equal merit, and a statutory duty for the Lord Chancellor and Lord Chief Justice to encourage judicial diversity. Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what assessment has been made of the The data on the gender, ethnicity and professional availability of mental health training for prison officers background of the Judiciary are held and published by since the publication of the Bradley Report in April the Judicial Office. (Information on previous professional 2009. [172333] background was not published before 2007.) This data is available at: Jeremy Wright: The Department of Health (DH) For 2013: oversaw a progress review in January 2013 of all recommendations outlined in the Bradley Report (2009). http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview In respect of Recommendation 53, that awareness training on mental health must be made available for all prison From 2001-12: officers, DH stated that this recommendation was complete. http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/archived-diversity- Prisoners: Foreign Nationals stats Information on the education or Queen’s counsel Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice status of the judiciary is not published by the Judicial (1) which foreign countries provide how much funding Office. to the cost of keeping their nationals jailed in the UK; [172771] Prison Service (2) how much the UK pays to each foreign country for UK nationals jailed in its prisons. [172799]

Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Jeremy Wright: The cost of detaining prisoners in Justice how many and what proportion of prison custody for the duration of a prison sentence is the officers in England have received training in mental responsibility of the state imposing the sentence and in health in each of the last five years. [172294] which the offender is detained. The United Kingdom makes no contribution to other countries towards the Jeremy Wright: Training in mental health awareness cost of detention of British nationals imprisoned overseas, is available to all prison officers. The training officers nor do other countries contribute towards the costs of undertake depends on their role in their prison. detention of their nationals imprisoned here. 501W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 502W

Registered Intermediaries of data held by credit reference agencies to obtain more information about the financial circumstances of indebted Ann Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice parents. what recent representations she has received on the number of Registered Intermediaries appointed for Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State children. [900707] for Work and Pensions (1) what trials are being conducted by his Department to encourage and help Damian Green: Representations were received on this separated parents liable for child maintenance subject in the form of PQs 158562 and 170443 on payments to keep making these payments; and what 12 June and 15 October 2013 respectively, both of evaluation of the outcomes of such trials has been which were tabled by the hon. Member. undertaken; [172587] (2) with reference to his Department’s Child Written Questions: Government Responses Maintenance Arrears and Compliance Strategy 2012- 2017, published in January 2013, what progress his Sir Edward Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Department has made on a trial to help caseworkers Justice when he plans to answer question 170056, better identify clients with child maintenance arrears tabled on 7 October 2013 for answer on 10 October who are genuinely unable to make the payments 2013. [172320] required of them and negotiate debt repayment plans; and whether he plans to publish the outcomes of that Mr Vara: I understand that my hon. and learned trial. [172638] Friend has now received a response to his parliamentary question and I apologise for the delay. Steve Webb: The Child Maintenance Service is taking forward a programme of trials to specifically tackle arrears, whether supporting those who report they are unable to pay or those that are unwilling to accept their responsibilities to pay for child maintenance. The trials WORK AND PENSIONS apply behaviour change principles and range from changing how the Child Maintenance Service communicates with Children: Maintenance clients at points when payments usually break-down, to sign-posting support to help clients better manage essential Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State household expenditure. These trials either aim to help for Work and Pensions with reference to his Department’s clients avoid missing payments, support clients who feel publication entitled Departmental Child Maintenance unable to pay to make payments, or ensure that clients Arrears and Compliance Strategy, published in January who are unwilling to pay are compelled to make payments. 2013, what conclusions he has reached regarding coming Trialling begun in April 2013 and this programme into force of section 40 of the Child Maintenance and will conclude in April 2014. Full evaluation will be Other Payments Act 2008. [172545] undertaken when the programme concludes with successful trials considered for full implementation, and unsuccessful Steve Webb: We are exploring bringing into force trials investigated and adapted if required to inform a powers laid out in the Child Maintenance and Other new programme of trials for 2014-15. The Child Payments Act 2008, providing for the disclosure of Maintenance Service will publish the findings of successful payment information to credit reference agencies. This trials at this point and share lessons learned if appropriate. would be subject to a public consultation before any regulations were laid in Parliament. Electrical Safety: Publicity Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions with reference to his Department’s Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Child Maintenance Arrears and Compliance Strategy and Pensions what steps he is taking to raise awareness for 2012-17, published in January 2013, what (a) collection of electrical fires in workplaces in (a) Paisley and initiatives and (b) innovative approaches are being Renfrewshire North constituency, (b) Renfrewshire, undertaken by his Department to tackle historical child (c) Scotland and (d) the UK. [173043] maintenance arrears. [172586] Mike Penning: Health and Safety Executive (HSE) Steve Webb: In addition to exploring the potential for provides guidance on electrical safety on its website and disclosing information to credit reference agencies, which in a number of publications with the aim of preventing will be subject to a public consultation if this is to be fires, electric shocks or burns in the workplace. HSE pursued; the Child Maintenance Service is also keeping inspectors may raise electrical safety matters where under review the use of powers to accept ″part payments″ relevant during investigations and inspections. of child maintenance in lieu of the full amount owed. There are no specific initiatives aimed at Paisley and These powers were introduced in December 2012, and Renfrewshire North constituency, Renfrewshire or Scotland. are currently only used where a client requests it. The use of these powers may be expanded in the future, with Energy the Child Maintenance Service proactively offering the option of a part payment during debt negotiations. Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Additionally, and as noted in the arrears strategy, the and Pensions what costs were incurred by his Department’s Child Maintenance Service aims to act within 72 hours estate in respect of (a) gas and (b) electricity supply in of a missed payment, and is seeking to make better use the 2012-13 financial year. [172634] 503W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 504W

Esther McVey: The Department for Work and Pensions It should be noted that bids are being received on a spent £8,748,531 on gas and £20,706,132 on electricity rolling basis and it is not practical to make continual in the 2012-13 financial year. announcements relating to each bid. To simplify the process a panel is meeting monthly to discuss the outcome Health and Safety Executive of bids and each council will be notified as soon as practically possible after those meetings have been held. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for The amount awarded will vary according to the extent Work and Pensions how many safety inspectors worked to which bidding councils have demonstrated that the full-time for the Health and Safety Executive in each criteria for an award have been met. year since 2008. [173017] Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Penning: The information requested is provided Work and Pensions which councils are to receive a in the following table: share of the £10 million of extra transitional discretionary housing payments; and how much each As of 31 March each year unless such council will receive. [172544] stated Number of inspectors

2008-09 1,469 Steve Webb: On 3 September 2013 the Department 2009-10 1,495 published information detailing a list of the councils 2010-11 1,450 that are to receive a share of the £10 million transitional 2011-12 1,432 funding, this was in addition to the £180 million of 2012-13 1,367 DHP funding made available this year. 2013-14 to date (as of 30 September 1,323 The information was published in DWP Circular 2013) S5/2013 and can be accessed at Gov.UK to which there is a link as follows. This document will be placed in the Hearing Impairment Library. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Work attachment_data/file/236632/s5-2013.pdf and Pensions which Government Departments currently use NRCPD-registered communication professionals to In Work Credit support deaf people accessing their services. [173083] Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mike Penning: It is not possible to comment on the and Pensions how many people in (a) Wrexham work of other Departments, however each Government constituency, (b) Wales and (c) the UK claimed Department has arrangements in place to provide in-work credit in each of the last five years. [172887] interpreters for people who are deaf, hard of hearing or speech impaired and who need to use its services. The Esther McVey: Statistics on the number of individuals Department for Work and Pensions has contracts in who started to receive in work credit in Great Britain, place with two providers to supply a face to face British Wales and Wrexham constituency in each of the last Sign Language (BSL) interpreting service. Local five years are provided as follows: arrangements with “off contract” suppliers can be used where they meet the required standards, offer value for January 2013 money and/or where the customer has an established or to March trusted relationship with the interpreter. 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 BSL interpreters supplied by the providers (and those Wrexham 55 65 55 45 15 used off contract) are qualified to NVQ Levels 1 to 4 Wales 2,700 3,100 3,000 2,700 700 (or equivalent) in BSL and are registered as a member Great 53,400 63,200 60,900 58,700 16,000 with the National Register of Communication Professionals Britain1 working with Deaf and Deafblind people (NRCPD) or 1 The Department does not posses data on the number of in work have equivalent registration with other organisations. credit starts in Northern Ireland, so the answer is only available for Great Britain. Housing Benefit Notes: 1. Wrexham figures rounded to the nearest five, Wales and GB figures to the nearest 100. Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for 2. The data for 2013 covers the period between January and March Work and Pensions which councils have applied for a 2013, March 2013 is the latest data currently available. Source: share of the £20 million extra discretionary housing Resource Management system payment; when he will announce which council is successful; and how much each such council will Industrial Health and Safety: Construction receive. [172536]

Steve Webb: The following councils have applied: Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many construction sites were South Lanarkshire visited by a Health and Safety Executive safety South Northamptonshire inspector in each year since 2008. [173014] Southwark Swindon Mike Penning: This information is not available in the West Dunbartonshire form requested. 505W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 506W

The number of visits carried out by inspectors in the Mike Penning: This information is not available in the Health and Safety Executive’s (HSE) Construction Division form requested. since 2010-11 is provided in the following table: The number of visits carried out by inspectors in the Number of visits Health and Safety Executive’s (HSE) Construction Division in London since 2010-11 is provided in the following 2010-111 19,612 table: 2011-12 13,168 2012-13 12,672 Number of visits 2013-14 to end August2 5,373 2010-111 2,824 1 Prior to 2011-12, numbers of inspection visits were not required as 2011-12 1,728 part of HSE’s performance measures and were not recorded. Estimated inspection visits are included this 2010-11 figure based upon data 2012-13 1,530 collected at that time but are not available for previous years. 2013-14 to end August2 819 2 In-year figures are provisional. 1 Prior to 2011-12, numbers of inspection visits were not required as part of HSE’s performance measures and were not recorded. Estimated These figures reflect records of proactive inspections, inspection visits are included this 2010-11 figure based upon data collected at that time but are not available for previous years. reactive investigations and complaints followed up. This 2 In-year figures are provisional. is not the same as the number of sites visited but provides the best available picture. Some sites may have These figures reflect records of proactive inspections, been visited more than once within these figures. Figures reactive investigations and complaints followed up. This focusing on the numbers of sites visited are not part of is not the same as the number of sites visited but HSE’s performance measures and are therefore not provides the best available picture. Some sites may have currently collated. been visited more than once within these figures. Figures focusing on the numbers of sites visited are not part of Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for HSE’s performance measures and are therefore not Work and Pensions how many construction sites (a)in currently collated. total and (b) in London were issued with a prohibition notice by the Health and Safety Executive in each year since 2008. [173015] Jobseeker’s Allowance: Wrexham Mike Penning: The number of construction sites visited by the Health and Safety Executive’s (HSE) Construction Division since 2008-09, which resulted in the issue of a Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work prohibition notice, is provided in the following table: and Pensions how many such people in Wrexham constituency receive jobseeker’s allowance (JSA); how Number of sites visited resulting in many people in Wrexham constituency have been the issue of a prohibition notice sanctioned and had their JSA stopped in the last year 2008-09 1,477 for which figures are available; and how many job 2009-10 2,022 vacancies there were in Wrexham constituency in that 2010-11 2,079 year. [172881] 2011-12 1,763 2012-13 1,462 Esther McVey: Statistics on how many people in 1 2013-14 to end August 1,153 Wrexham constituency receive jobseeker’s allowance 1 In-year figures are provisional (JSA) can be found at: The number of construction sites in London visited https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/default.asp by HSE’s Construction Division since 2008-09, which Guidance for users can be found at: resulted in the issue of a prohibition notice, is provided in the following table: https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/home/newuser.asp The last year for which JSA sanctions figures are Number of sites visited resulting in available by parliamentary constituency is from 1 June the issue of a prohibition notice 2011 to 31 May 2012. The information requested linking 2008-09 265 the JSA recipients to the available JSA sanctions data is 2009-10 325 not readily available and could be provided only at 2010-11 318 disproportionate cost. 2011-12 291 However, from statistics we do have available, the 2012-13 251 number of people in Wrexham constituency who have 2013-14 to end August1 201 been sanctioned in the last year for which figures are 1 In-year figures are provisional available is given in the following table:

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Number of jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) claimants with a sanction applied: 1 June 2011 to 31 May 2012 Work and Pensions how many construction sites in Parliamentary constituency Total London were visited by a Health and Safety Executive safety inspector in each year since 2008. [173016] Wrexham 530 507W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 508W

Notes: enabling disabled people to progress as well as informing 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. employers of what support is available. This campaign 2. Sanctions applied: The number of sanctions applied is the number of varied, fixed length and entitlement decision sanction referrals will include nine regional events held across the United where the decision was found against the claimant. Kingdom at which employers are invited to contribute 3. Parliamentary constituency: Parliamentary constituencies are assigned and share good practice. The first event is in Birmingham by matching postcodes against the relevant postcode directory.Boundaries on 21 November. The role of employers in promoting are as at the reference date. More information and a map can be found employment of disabled people and breaking down at: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/geography/beginner-s- stigma and barriers is central to the Disability Confident guide/maps/index.html Campaign. 4. Data is up to and including the 31 of May 2012, which this is the latest data available by parliamentary constituency. Occupational Pensions 5. Varied length sanctions: A sanction of between one week and 26 weeks is imposed for leaving employment voluntarily without just cause, refusing employment without good cause, or losing employment Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for through misconduct. The actual period in each case is at the discretion Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to help of the adjudication officer who makes the decision. small and medium-sized enterprises comply with their 6. Fixed length sanctions: A sanction of between one week and 26 legal obligations under auto-enrolment; and if he will weeks is imposed for refusal, without good cause, to attend an employment programme or carry out a jobseeker’s direction. Payment make a statement. [172668] of benefit continues in full pending the adjudication officer’s decision on a sanction question. Steve Webb: The Pensions Regulator (TPR) compliance 7. Entitlement decisions: These are questions on which entitlement to strategy for automatic enrolment is based on establishing JSA depends. For example, if there is doubt around whether the a pro-compliance culture. In doing so they are focusing jobseeker’s agreement (JSAg) is suitable, whether they are actively looking for work or making themselves available for work. In most on educating and enabling employers of all sizes to cases payment of JSA will be suspended by benefit processing until ensure they are aware of automatic enrolment and the doubt is resolved. understand what they have to do. Throughout the initial Source: roll out of automatic enrolment TPR has been assessing DWP Information, Governance and Security Directorate: JSA Sanctions the impact of their communications and updating their and Disallowance Decisions Statistics Database. products to ensure they meet the needs of the changing Statistics on how many job vacancies there were in audience, from the UK’s largest employers with thousands Wrexham constituency between June 2011 and May of workers, through to those with a small work force. 2012 can be found at: The regulator sends out a series of letters and emails https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/default.asp to employers from 12 months prior to their staging date. Guidance for users can be found at: As their staging date approaches each e-mail informs https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/home/newuser.asp the employer what stage they should be at and also signposts the relevant guidance and tools provided by Mental Illness the regulator. The tools available on the regulator’s website include, an interactive planning tool to assist Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Work employers in getting ready, a staging date tool to find and Pensions (1) what steps his Department is taking to out your staging date, and detailed guides. They have encourage employers to sign up to the Time to Change also established a customer support centre for employers initiative to end mental health discrimination; [172756] to discuss any question they may have. An employer advertising campaign is underway to raise awareness (2) what discussions he has had to encourage and guide employers to the regulator’s website to help employers taking advantage of the Youth Contract to them in their preparations. sign up to Time to Change to end mental health discrimination. [172757] The regulator is also working with intermediaries such as software developers, payroll bureaux and trade Mike Penning: The Government is currently developing body groups to make sure they are able to provide a new Employment Strategy for disabled people and suitable tools, guidance or support if employers require those with health conditions which will be published it. before the end of the year. The strategy will recognise the crucial role that employers have to play in enabling Poverty: Children disabled people and people with health conditions to realise their employment aspirations. It will seek to Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work improve the support available to all employers (including and Pensions how many children were classed as living those taking advantage of the YouthContract) to recruit, in poverty in each parliamentary constituency in the retain and enable people with disabilities and health UK in each of the last five years; and what estimate he conditions (including mental health conditions) to progress. has made of the number of such children in each of the Changing attitudes and removing stigmas is central to next three years. [172888] this. We have publicly signalled our commitment to the Time to Change (TTC) initiative and are currently Esther McVey: The information requested is not available. progressing the associated action plan with relevant The Child Poverty Act 2010 sets four income-based TTC representatives. UK-wide targets to be met by 2020. The targets are At the Disability Employment Conference, on 18 July based on the proportion of children living in households 2013, the then Minister for Disabled People launched with relative low income, combined low income and the Disability Confident Campaign. The two year campaign material deprivation, absolute low income and persistent takes forward initiatives to support businesses to become poverty (all before housing costs have been taken into more disability confident at recruiting, retaining and account). 509W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 510W

Estimates of these are published in the National Income matters but considering this in isolation fails Statistics Households Below Average Income (HBAI) to properly reflect the reality of child poverty in the UK series. HBAI uses household income adjusted (or today. We want to develop better measures of child ‘equivalised’) for household size and composition, to poverty which include income but provide a more accurate provide a proxy for standard of living. This information picture of the reality of child poverty. Our consultation is captured using the Family Resources Survey. on how best to measure child poverty closed on 15 February. Information at constituency level is not available as A large volume of responses was received and all of the sample size of this survey is not sufficient to provide these are being read and analysed to ensure that all robust estimates. The lowest geography at which poverty important points are captured and used to help Ministers estimates are reported is regional level. decide on the next steps. Three-year averages are used to report statistics by Social Fund region, as single-year estimates are subject to volatility. The latest figures for relative and absolute low income Dame Anne Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for at regional level covering the last five years (up until Work and Pensions what rate of repayment was 2009-10 to 2011-12) can be found in the latest HBAI achieved for crisis loans and budgeting loans in the publication, available at the following link: four years prior to changes to the Discretionary Social https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/households- Fund in 2013. [172542] below-average-income-hbai-199495-to-201112 (ISBN 978-1-78153-531-8). Steve Webb: There is no time limit for Crisis Loans and Budgeting Loans to be repaid. Loans remain Relevant figures can be found in Table 4.6db (on page outstanding until the full amount has been paid back 115) for the latest relative low income proportions, and they can, in some cases, take many years to be Table 4.17ts (on page 136) for relative low income for recovered fully. Tables 1 and 2 show the proportion of the last five years and Table 4.23ts (on page 142) for Crisis Loan and Budgeting Loan expenditure made in absolute low income for the last five years. each financial year between 2009-10 and 2012-13 that The Government has not produced forecasts of the has been recovered in the following years up to and number of children living in income poverty for the including 2012-13. Please note that these figures do not next three years. The number of children in poverty is represent total recoveries made by the Social Fund dependent on a number of factors which cannot be scheme in each year as there will have been additional reliably predicted, including the median income. repayments from loans made in earlier years.

Table 1: Crisis Loan expenditure between 2009-10 and 2012-13 and the proportion recovered in each year up to 2012-13 Percentage recovered in each following year Total paid back Year loan paid out Expenditure (£) 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 by 2012-13

2009-10 228.8 13 19 18 12 63 2010-11 228.3 — 11 20 18 49 2011-12 133.3 — — 14 19 33 2012-13 102.8 ———1616

Table 2: Budgeting Loan expenditure between 2009-10 and 2012-13 and the proportion recovered in each year up to 2012-13. Percentage recovered in each following year Total paid back Year loan paid out Expenditure (£) 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 by 2012-13

2009-10 482.3 33 36 14 5 88 2010-11 445.9 — 33 39 13 86 2011-12 447.5 — — 36 40 76 2012-13 455.3 ———3838 Notes: 1. The information provided is Management Information. Our preference is to answer all parliamentary questions using Official/National Statistics but in this case we only have Management Information available. It is not quality assured to the same extent as Official/National statistics and there are some issues with the data; for example, these amounts do not include expenditure or recoveries from applications which were processed clerically and have not yet been entered on to the Social Fund Computer System. 2. Expenditure figures are rounded to the nearest £100,000 and percentages are rounded to the nearest whole percentage point. Source: DWP Policy, Budget and Management Information System

Social Rented Housing: Housing Benefit Esther McVey: A child is taken into account in the housing benefit assessment when the claimant or partner has primary responsibility for them. This will be the Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for person that the child normally resides with or where the Work and Pensions what arrangements are in place for child spends an equal time in different households, parents with joint custody of children eligible to pay the person in receipt of child benefit. the under occupancy penalty. [172967] 511W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 512W

This reflects a general principle of domestic social Notes: security law that prevents double provision. 1. Figures are for initial assessments only and numbers have been rounded to the nearest hundred. 2. Data on appeals includes ESA claims up to the end of May 2012 Social Security Benefits (the latest month where we have sufficient volumes of appeals heard to include in the publication) where the person claiming has been assessed to be fit for work, they subsequently appeal the Department’s David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for decision and the appeal has been heard by Tribunals Service. Work and Pensions how much in benefit payments 3. Due to the time it takes for appeals to be submitted to the Tribunals Service and heard, it is likely that there are more appeals that have not went unclaimed in each region of the UK in 2012. yet been heard. Therefore these figures should be treated as emerging [173280] findings rather than final at this stage. 4. Condition groups are based on the International Classification of Diseases (2010). Mike Penning: Estimates of how much in benefit Source: payments went unclaimed in each region of the UK in Department for Work and Pensions benefit administration dataset. 2012 are unavailable. The information requested for appeals heard on fit The most recent data are reported in the statistical for work decisions in the functional assessment for publication ‘The Income Related Benefits: Estimates of repeat claims to ESA and incapacity benefit (IB) Take-up’, which covers Great Britain for the financial reassessments is not readily available and could be year 2009-10. It provides caseload and expenditure provided only at disproportionate cost. estimates of take-up for income support and employment and support allowance (income-related), pension credit, Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work housing benefit (including local housing allowance), and Pensions how many work capability assessments council tax benefit and jobseeker’s allowance (income- received (a) zero points on initial assessment and (b) based). This report can be found at: between zero and six points but were passed on appeal https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/income-related- since August 2011. [172313] benefits-estimates-of-take-up--2 Mike Penning: The information requested, for initial Universal Credit: Wales assessment new claims to employment and support allowance (ESA), is shown in the following table. New claims—Outcomes of appeals heard on fit for work decisions in Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work initial functional assessment by points scored, Great Britain: August and Pensions if he will estimate how many people in 2011-May 2012 (a) Wrexham constituency and (b) each other Appeals heard constituency in Wales will be affected by the changes in Total case universal credit payments on and after its introduction load with a fit Decision in as each increase in the personal income tax allowance for work DWP decision favour of planned by the Government takes effect; and what the decision upheld appellant average change per month in universal credit payments Zero points 148,700 26,600 11,900 would be for any such people in (i) Wrexham 1 to 6 points 18,000 2,800 2,400 constituency and (ii) each other constituency in Wales. Notes: [172882] 1. Figures are for initial assessments only and numbers have been rounded to the nearest hundred. 2. Data on appeals includes ESA claims up to the end of May 2012 Esther McVey: The information requested is not available. (the latest month where we have sufficient volumes of appeals heard to include in the publication) where the person claiming has been Work Capability Assessment assessed to be fit for work, they subsequently appeal the department’s decision and the appeal has been heard by Tribunals Service. 3. Due to the time it takes for appeals to be submitted to the Tribunals Service and heard, it is likely that there are more appeals that have not Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work yet been heard. Therefore these figures should be treated as emerging and Pensions how many work capability assessments findings rather than final at this stage. made of people diagnosed with a mental health Source: condition were refused since February 2010; and how Department for Work and Pensions benefit administration dataset. many such decisions were subsequently overturned on The information requested for appeals heard on fit appeal. [172309] for work decisions in the functional assessment for repeat claims to ESA and incapacity benefit (IB) Mike Penning: The information requested, for new reassessments is not readily available and could be claims to employment and support allowance (ESA), is provided only at disproportionate cost. shown in the following table. Work Capability Assessment: Carmarthenshire New claims—Outcomes of appeals heard on fit for work decisions in initial functional assessment for those in the condition group of mental and behavioural disorders, Great Britain: February 2010-May 2012 Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Appeal heard and Pensions how many and what proportion of claimants Total case load with a fit of employment and support allowance in Carmarthen for work decision in the DWP Decision in West and South Pembrokeshire constituency have been condition group for mental decision favour of found capable of work as a result of a work capability and behavioural disorders upheld appellant assessment since February 2010; what proportion of Great 240,800 55,800 36,400 such people who appealed against work capability Britain assessments were successful; how many appeals against 513W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 514W the outcomes of work capability assessments have been (4) how many people in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) made from people in Carmarthen West and South South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the UK Pembrokeshire constituency since August 2009; and have been referred to the Work Programme; [172810] how many such appeals were successful. [172310] (5) how many people in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the UK Mike Penning: The information requested by who have been referred to the Work Programme have parliamentary constituency is not readily available and found any type of employment that lasted less than six could be provided only at disproportionate cost. months; [172811] (6) how many people in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) Work Capability Assessment: Wales South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the UK who have been referred to the Work Programme have found any type of employment that lasted more than Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work six months; [172812] and Pensions how many people in Wales who failed a (7) how many people in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) work capability assessment had the decision overturned South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the UK on appeal since November 2010. [172307] who have been referred to the Work Programme have found employment to date. [172814] Mike Penning: The information requested, for new claims to employment and support allowance (ESA), is Esther McVey: Information on job starts from the shown in the following table. Work Programme is not available, as job outcome payments New claims—Outcomes of appeals heard on fit for work decisions in to providers are only made when participants have been initial functional assessment, Wales: November 2010-May 2012 in work and off benefit for a sustained period; in the Appeals heard majority of cases at least 26 weeks, but 13 weeks for Total case load with those in certain categories. Work Programme participants a fit for work DWP decision Decision in favour must work sufficient hours to come off benefit for their decision upheld of appellant employment to count as a job outcome, but beyond that information on part-time versus full-time employment Wales 23,300 5,800 3,500 is not available. Notes: 1. Figures are for initial assessments only and numbers have been The available information on job outcomes is shown rounded to the nearest hundred. in the following tables: 2. Data on appeals includes ESA claims up to the end of May 2012 1: Work Programme job outcomes for payment groups 1, 2 and 9, (the latest month where we have sufficient volumes of appeals heard where job outcomes are defined as in work and off benefit for at least to include in the publication) where the person claiming has been 26 weeks, as at 30 June 2013 assessed to be fit for work, they subsequently appeal the Department’s decision and the appeal has been heard by Tribunals Service. Area Total 3. Due to the time it takes for appeals to be submitted to the Tribunals Great Britain 117,470 Service and heard, it is likely that there are more appeals that have not yet been heard. Therefore these figures should be treated as emerging North East Region 7,130 findings rather than final at this stage. South Tyneside local authority 520 Source: Jarrow parliamentary constituency 240 Department for Work and Pensions benefit administration dataset. The information requested for appeals heard on fit for work decisions in the functional assessment for 2: Work Programme Job outcomes for payment groups 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8, where job outcomes are defined as in work and off benefit for at repeat claims to ESA and incapacity benefit (IB) least 13 weeks, as at 30 June 2013 Reassessments is not readily available and could be Employment duration provided only at disproportionate cost. 13 weeks up to 25 weeks and Area Total 25 weeks over Work Programme Great Britain 50,950 16,910 34,040 North East 2,630 880 1,750 Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Region and Pensions (1) how many people in (a) Jarrow South Tyneside 200 70 130 constituency, (b) South Tyneside, (c) the North East local authority and (d) the UK who have been referred to the Work Jarrow 70 30 40 Programme have found part-time employment that parliamentary lasted (i) more than and (ii) less than six months; constituency [172807] Statistics on how many people in Jarrow parliamentary (2) how many people in (a) Jarrow constituency, constituency, South Tyneside, the North East and Great (b) South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the Britain have participated in the Work Programme since UK who have been referred to the Work Programme its inception can be found at: have found (i) full-time employment, (ii) full-time https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department- employment that lasted less than six months and for-work-pensions/series/dwp-statistics-tabulation- (iii) full-time employment that lasted more than six tool#benefit-caseloads months; [172808] Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (3) how many people in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) and Pensions how much his Department has funded to South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the UK Work programme providers in (a) Jarrow constituency, who have been referred to the Work Programme have (b) South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the found part-time employment; [172809] UK. [172813] 515W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 516W

Esther McVey: The total paid to Work programme Jane Ellison: Responsibility for determining the overall providers in the UK is £736 million from the start of the national approach to improving clinical outcomes from programme through to 31 March 2013, the period health care services lies with NHS England. Support for covered by the 27 June 2013 Statistical Release. Due to people with long-term conditions is covered in the NHS commercial in confidence considerations we are not Outcomes Framework and in the mandate to NHS able to release financial data below the national level at England. Through the mandate we are monitoring how this time. well the national health service is performing in supporting people to look after themselves. It is for individual clinical commissioning groups HEALTH (CCGs) to commission treatment and services for patients Children on long-term warfarin or other medications which require monitoring, as they are best placed to identify what is Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State needed in their local areas. It is the responsibility of for Health (1) if he will investigate ways to support NHS England to support CCGs and ensure that they children’s early development, particularly the first are safely and effectively discharging their commissioning 1,001 days from conception; [172838] responsibilities, and are making progress in delivering outcomes. This support may include providing supportive (2) if the Government will investigate ways to commissioning resources, tools or guidance. identify families that require additional support to ensure children are protected in the first 1,001 days Under its Diagnostics Assessment Programme, the from conception. [172839] National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) is developing guidance on self-monitoring coagulometers Dr Poulter: The Healthy Child Programme—Pregnancy for self-testing or self-managing coagulation status in and the First Five Years of Life, sets out a universal patients with atrial fibrillation or heart valve disease for service for children and. families, with the goal of whom long-term vitamin K antagonist therapy is intended. promoting the health and well-being of children, as NICE expects to issue guidance in July 2014. NHS part of an integrated approach to supporting children England advises that it will then consider what action, if and families. It includes development reviews, screening any, is required, taking this guidance into account. and immunisation, health promotion and support to NHS England advises that information on the number parents. This universal programme led by health visitors of patients who are on warfarin long-term and use allows the early identification risks and issues and provides self-monitoring technology is not collected as it is difficult early support and additional help for those who need it. for accurate and meaningful information to be gathered The Government has commissioned a review of the and reported. This is due to the way in which self-monitoring evidence for the Healthy Child Programme to ensure technology is available to patients via CCGs or purchased that it remains evidence based. privately. The Department has no plans to collect these The new, four tier health visiting service model (ranging data. from universal action with communities and families through to more targeted support) will further help to Hospitals: Liverpool identify families who require additional help. We are increasing the number of health visitors, Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health trained nurses or midwives with specialist training in what assessment he has made of reports published by family and community health, by 4,200, who will provide the Care Quality Commission into Alder Hey Children’s women with professional support during pregnancy Hospital in April 2013 and University Hospital Aintree and after birth. Also, the Family Nurse Partnership in January 2013. [173090] (FNP) programme, which gives support to young, at risk, first time mums, will expand to 16,000 places by Norman Lamb: No assessment has been made. 2015. The Care Quality Commission (CQC) is the independent Continuing Care regulator of health and adult social care providers in England. The CQC is responsible for assessing whether Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for providers are meeting the registration requirements. It Health (1) what progress his Department has made on has a wide range of enforcement powers available where proposals to offer enhanced services to help patients the provider is not compliant. with long-term conditions monitor their health; All providers of regulated activities have to register [172636] with the CQC and meet its safety and quality requirements. (2) what steps his Department plans to take to encourage greater use of and support for self-monitoring by clinical Infant Mortality commissioning groups. [172637] Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State what steps he is taking to raise awareness of stillbirth for Health (1) what guidance he gives to clinical and neonatal death; what steps his Department is commissioning groups on consistency in the long-term taking to reduce the number of stillbirths; and what use of warfarin; [172497] investment his Department plans in research on (2) if he will take steps to make national collection of prevention of stillbirths and neonatal deaths. [172717] data of (a) how many warfarin patients are offered self-monitoring technology and (b) the financial Dr Poulter: The Government has made reducing perinatal incentives given to GPs in issuing anticoagulation tests. mortality, including stillbirth, an improvement area under [172498] domain one of the NHS Outcomes Framework. 517W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 518W

Information on stillbirth, including the known causes Mr Yeo: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and advice on prevention, is available on the NHS what the average age of (a) a midwife and (b) a Choices website at: midwifery student is in (i) Suffolk, (ii) East Anglia and www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Stillbirth/Pages/Definition.aspx (iii) the UK. [172707] The Department is currently working in partnership Dr Poulter: We do not collect data in the format with Sands (the Stillbirth and Neonatal Death charity) requested. and a range of key organisations, including NHS England, Public Health England, the Royal College of Midwives Latest midwifery data, 2012, show that the average and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, age of midwives within the England and the East of to take forward a stillbirth prevention work programme. England Strategic Health Authority (SHA) remain stable Part of this programme involves identifying and agreeing at around 43 years as shown in the following table. the key messages that can be used to raise awareness Data about midwifery students are collected by the among both pregnant women and health professionals Higher Education Statistics Agency and requests will of the risk factors for stillbirth and the actions that can attract a fee. The HESA website is available at: be taken to minimise these risks. www.hesa.ac.uk The Department’s National Institute for Health Research NHS hospital and community health services: Registered midwives in (NIHR) funds a range of research relating to causes, England, the East of England Strategic Health Authority area and risk factors and prevention of stillbirth and neonatal each specified organisation by average age as at 30 September death. Both the NIHR Cambridge Biomedical Research 2010 2011 2012 Centre and the NIHR Imperial Biomedical Research England 43 43 43 Centre have on-going programmes of research on women’s East of 43 43 43 health, including research relevant to the prevention of England SHA stillbirth and neonatal death.

In addition, the NIHR Health Technology Assessment Total specified 45 44 44 is funding a £6.0 million trial of an intelligent system to organisations support decision making in the management of labour Ipswich 45 44 44 using the cardiotocogram, a £1.4 million trial of nicotine Hospital NHS replacement therapy in pregnancy led by the university Trust of Nottingham, and a £1.2 million trial of physical West Suffolk 44 43 43 activity as an aid to smoking cessation during pregnancy Hospitals NHS led by St George’s, university of London. Trust Notes: 1. Average ages are rounded to the nearest whole number. Midwives 2. Of the organisations that cover the Suffolk and East Anglia area (Suffolk Coastal Primary Care Trust (PCT), Suffolk PCT, North West Anglia Healthcare NHS Trust, Mid Anglia Community Health Mr Yeo: To ask the Secretary of State for Health NHS Trust, Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust and West Suffolk what steps he is taking to encourage people to pursue a Hospitals NHS Trust), only Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust and West career in midwifery. [172706] Suffolk Hospitals NHS Trust employ registered midwives. Source: Health and Social Care Information Centre Non-Medical Workforce Dr Poulter: There are a record number in excess of Census 5,000 midwives currently in training and 75 more new training places this year than in 2010. Mr Yeo: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether the average age of (a) a midwife and (b) a As part of its mandate commitments, Health Education midwifery student in (i) Suffolk, (ii) East Anglia and England (HEE) is responsible for ensuring that national (iii) the UK has increased over the last 10 years. [172708] health service staff are available in the right numbers with the right skills, values and competencies to deliver Dr Poulter: There are a record number in excess of both excellent clinical outcomes together with patient- 5,000 midwives currently in training and 75 more new centred care. training places this year than in 2010, however we do NHS Careers, part of HEE, actively promotes all not collect these data in the format requested. Midwifery healthcare careers, including midwifery.Careers information, data for the past decade show that the average age of advice and guidance about a career in midwifery are qualified midwives in England and East of England available through its website, literature and helpline. Strategic Health Authority (SHA) has increased by one This includes information about the education and year over the last 10 years. training needed to become a midwife, entry routes and Data about midwifery students are collected by the training opportunities, cadet schemes and apprenticeships. Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) and requests There has been a reduction in the midwife-to-birth will attract a fee. The website is available at: ratio from 2008 to 2012. www.hesa.ac.uk

NHS hospital and community health services: Registered midwives in England, the East of England SHA area and each specified organisation by average age as at 30 September 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

England42424242434343434343 East of 42 43 42 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 England SHA 519W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 520W

NHS hospital and community health services: Registered midwives in England, the East of England SHA area and each specified organisation by average age as at 30 September 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Total specified 44 44 44 45 44 45 44 45 44 44 organisations Ipswich 44 44 44 45 45 45 44 45 45 44 Hospital NHS Trust West Suffolk 44 44 44 44 44 44 44 44 43 43 Hospitals NHS Trust Notes: 1. Average ages are rounded to the nearest whole number. 2. Of the organisations that cover the Suffolk and East Anglia area (Suffolk Coastal Primary Care Trust (PCT), Suffolk PCT, North West Anglia Healthcare NHS Trust, Mid Anglia Community Health NHS Trust, Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust and West Suffolk Hospitals NHS Trust), only Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust and West Suffolk Hospitals NHS Trust employ registered midwives. Source: Health and Social Care Information Centre Non-Medical Workforce Census

Mr Yeo: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) ‘Compassion in Practice’is available from NHS England’s how many qualified midwives leave the profession website: before retirement age in (a) Suffolk, (b) East Anglia www.england.nhs.uk/nursingvision/ and (c) the UK; [172709] (2) whether the number of qualified midwives who Neurology leave the profession before retirement age in (a) Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Suffolk, (b) East Anglia and (c) the UK has increased (1) how many (a) elective and (b) emergency admissions over the last 10 years. [172710] took place in each (i) primary care trust and (ii) clinical Dr Poulter: We do not collect this data at a local level. commissioning group area for patients with (A) primary and (B) secondary diagnosis of a neurological condition, Midwives may chose to leave the profession for a as defined under Diseases of the nervous system in the number of reasons, for example to return to nursing, International Statistical Classification of Diseases and undertake additional training or for personal reasons. Related Health Problems 10th Revision, in each of the There are currently 21,443 full-time equivalent qualified last five years for which data is available; [172580] midwives, with an overall increase of 1,311 since May (2) how many emergency re-admissions within 28 days 2010. There are also over 5,000 midwifery students in took place for patients in each (a) primary care trust training. and (b) clinical commissioning group area with a (i) primary and (ii) secondary diagnosis of a neurological Mr Yeo: To ask the Secretary of State for Health condition, as defined under Diseases of the nervous what steps he is taking to improve midwife retention system in the International Statistical Classification of rates. [172738] Diseases and Related Health Problems 10th Revision, in each of the last five years for which data is available. Dr Poulter: It is the responsibility of individual employers [172581] to have policies in place to develop and support the midwifery work force. Norman Lamb: A count of finished admission episodes Health Education England (HEE) is responsible for for a primary and secondary diagnosis of a neurological ensuring sufficient midwives and other maternity staff condition, ICD10 codes G00-G99 by primary care trust are trained to provide necessary care and support for of treatment for the years 2007-08 to 2011-12 has been expectant women and new mothers. Local Education placed in the Library. It is not possible to provide this Training Boards (LETBs) work with HEE to provide information by clinical commissioning group area. local delivery and leadership. LETBs are the forum for Information on readmissions within 28 days for patients providers and professionals to work collectively to improve in each primary care trust and clinical commissioning the quality of education and training in their local area group area with a primary and secondary diagnosis of a and to meet needs of service providers, patients and the neurological condition is not collected by the Health public. and Social Care Information Centre. Universities will be using the ‘values based recruitment’ Organs: Donors model, to ensure the right choices are made early, ie that students are right for midwifery and midwifery is right Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for them. By ensuring the intake of student midwives for Health what steps the Government is taking to comprises people best suited to this type of career address the disparity between supply and demand for choice, it is more likely they will complete training and organ donations in England. [172840] stay longer in post, thus increasing retention rates. ‘Compassion in Practice’, the three year vision and Jane Ellison: In July 2013 NHS Blood and Transplant strategy for nursing and midwives, (launched December (NHSBT) published the United Kingdom strategy “Taking 2012 by NHS England), requires organisations to publish Organ Transplantation to 2020” to further increase their staffing levels and use an evidence based tool to donation and transplantation rates. NHSBT worked calculate them. ‘Birth Rate Plus’ is an example of a tool closely to develop this strategy with stakeholders in the that organisations could use for this purpose. transplant community and the wider public. 521W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 522W

The new strategy builds on work undertaken to increase (2) if he will urge emergency departments to treat a deceased donation rates by 50% between 2008 and patient with sepsis as an urgent priority, ensuring 2013. It aims to provide the UK organ donation and relevant treatment within one hour of arrival; [172595] transplantation community with what it needs. to match (3) if he will take steps to ensure that all emergency the best deceased organ donation and transplantation departments provide blood gas machines that can rates in the world over the next seven years. To achieve measure lactate for the early recognition of sepsis. this, both the evolution of national health service services, [172596] and a revolution in public attitudes to consent, is required.

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Dr Poulter: The Department is already taking steps for Health what steps the Government is taking to use to prevent all avoidable deaths, including those from advertising campaigns and education in schools to sepsis. This includes setting objectives in the NHS Mandate requiring the NHS to provide a high quality of patient promote organ donation. [172847] care and ensuring that the NHS Outcomes Framework Jane Ellison: In partnership with the Cabinet Office for 2013-14 includes patient safety outcomes and and the Department of Health, NHS Blood and Transplant corresponding indicators. (NHSBT) has been developing an approach to prompt We understand that NHS England is also collaborating people to sign up to the NHS Organ Donor Register with Dr Ron Daniels, who was instrumental in developing (ODR) via Government owned channels such as applying the ″Sepsis Six″ protocols for treating sepsis, to embed for a driving licence and paying car tax online. The awareness of these protocols in NHS practice. The trials are promising and results should be available in protocols include essential treatment measures, such as the new year. the delivery of high-flow oxygen, the measurement of NHSBT also co-ordinates a number of national initiatives serum lactate, and the need for delivering these health such as National Transplant Week—using media publicity, care measures within one hour of the initial diagnosis social media, and community engagement programmes—to of sepsis. raise awareness of organ donation and encourage people The recognition and management of sepsis is also to join the ODR and tell their family and friends of part of a clinical audit of emergency departments by their donation wishes. NHSBT will be reviewing its the College of Emergency Medicine, which will be social marketing strategy in the coming months as part concluded by 31 January 2014. This audit is listed in the of addressing the challenge in tackling family refusal Department’s Quality Accounts for 2013-14, which requires rates for organ donation. providers in England to report on their participation in NHSBT has existing programmes in place to support national clinical audits. education about organ donation and transplantation for school age children. They have developed a national Suicide education programme called ’Give and Let Live’, which is aimed at promoting awareness of bone marrow, blood, tissue, cord blood and organ donation among 14 to Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State 16-year-old pupils. for Health what steps he is taking to reduce incidence of suicide in (a) Peterborough and (b) England; and if Within the United Kingdom strategy “Taking Organ he will make a statement. [172745] Transplantation to 2020” published in July 2013, the possibility of incorporating donation and transplantation into schools’ curricula will be explored. Norman Lamb: Much of the planning and work to prevent suicides will be carried out locally. It will be for local agencies working through health and well-being Passive Smoking boards to decide the best way to achieve the overall aim of reducing the suicide rate. Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for ‘Preventing suicide in England: A cross-government Health pursuant to the answer of 21 October 2013, outcomes strategy to save lives’ was published on 10 Official Report, columns 71-72W, on passive smoking: September 2012 to coincide with the International children, if he will publish the findings from the independent Association for Suicide Prevention’s World Suicide evaluation of the 2013 marketing campaign on smokefree Prevention Day. We will shortly be publishing the first homes and family cars. [172507] annual report on the strategy. The strategy outlines a number of effective interventions that local agencies Jane Ellison: Public Health England publishes details could choose to adopt. and top-line evaluation results from all campaigns on the Smokefree Resource Centre at: Alongside the strategy, the Government initiated a Call to Action for suicide prevention, facilitated by www.smokefree.nhs.uk/resources Samaritans, to engage the support of over 50 national The evaluation results from the recent Smokefree organisations with a role to play in preventing suicide. Homes and Cars campaign will be published in December. We are now further supporting that group to develop into a National Suicide Prevention Alliance. Sepsis In addition to work funded through the National Institute for Health Research we also allocated £1.5 Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for million of funding over three years through the Policy Health (1) what steps his Department has taken to Research Programme for research to support the suicide ensure that all emergency departments successfully prevention strategy.The funded projects will be announced implement a sepsis pathway; [172594] shortly. 523W Written Answers30 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 524W

We are developing a Public Health Outcomes Framework Weather: Death indicator on self-harm to increase the focus on the issue. The Government’s commitment in the spending review Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013 to ensure that every accident and emergency Health what estimate he has made of excess winter department will have constant access to mental health deaths in England and Wales in winter 2013-14. [173087] professionals will ensure that people with mental health problems get the best possible care. Jane Ellison: The causes of excess winter deaths are Additionally, the Care Quality Commission is carrying complex and interlinked not just to the weather but also out a review of emergency mental health care, following to the wider determinants of health. This makes excess recent concerns about access to appropriate treatment winter deaths difficult to predict in advance. for people with mental health problems. The Office for National Statistics compares observed Finally, new measures announced by the Prime Minister winter deaths with non-winter deaths retrospectively will ensure that all internet customers will be given the and we are awaiting their estimate for last winter (2012-13) opportunity to install free and easy to use filters which which is due for publication next month. can block access to harmful websites such as those However, Public Health England has published the promoting suicide and self-harm. Through discussions Cold Weather Plan for England to avoid preventable with the internet service providers we are aware that deaths in winter by setting out a series of actions for they are all currently working on the specific categories organisations, communities and individuals, to take that parents and consumers will be able to block, including throughout the year. suicide sites.

Tobacco: Packaging DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Royal Family what recent progress his Department has made on introducing standardised packaging for cigarettes; and Andrew George: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister if he will make a statement. [172700] what recent discussions he has had with members of the Royal Family on their role in the legislative process. Jane Ellison: The Government has decided to wait [900785] before making a decision on standardised packaging. This policy remains under active consideration. Greg Clark: None

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 30 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 901 CABINET OFFICE—continued Cyber-Security ...... 905 Senior Civil Service Staff (Reductions) ...... 902 Disaster Planning...... 901 Topical Questions ...... 908 National Citizen Service...... 903 Post Office...... 906 PRIME MINISTER ...... 910 Procurement (SMEs)...... 907 Engagements...... 910 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 30 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 49WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Technology Strategy Board (Triennial Review) ...... 49WS AFFAIRS...... 51WS European Environment Council...... 51WS CABINET OFFICE...... 50WS City Deal...... 50WS TRANSPORT ...... 52WS DEFENCE...... 49WS Railway Rolling Stock: Luxembourg Rail BORONA Programme...... 49WS Protocol ...... 52WS PETITION

Wednesday 30 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION ...... 5P Rural Fair Share Campaign...... 5P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 30 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 479W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Business ...... 479W continued Business: Mental Illness ...... 480W Swimming: Safety ...... 467W Employment Appeal Tribunal...... 481W Mental Illness: Discrimination...... 481W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 472W Petrochemicals: Industry...... 481W Charities Act 2006...... 472W

CABINET OFFICE...... 487W DEFENCE...... 473W British Nationals Abroad: EU Countries ...... 488W Army: Germany...... 473W British Nationals Abroad: Higher Education...... 488W Public Expenditure...... 473W Energy...... 489W Fraud, Error and Uncollected Debt ...... 488W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 524W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 489W Royal Family...... 524W Health...... 489W Hearing Impairment ...... 490W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 478W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 490W Charities Act 2006...... 478W New Businesses ...... 490W Green Deal Scheme...... 479W Transparency Agenda ...... 487W Offshore Industry: Safety...... 479W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 463W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Cafes: Pedestrian Areas ...... 463W AFFAIRS...... 473W Charities Act 2006...... 463W Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 473W Energy...... 463W Floods: Housing ...... 474W Housing: Floods ...... 465W Rabies ...... 475W Parking: Pedestrian Areas ...... 465W Sewers ...... 475W Pedestrian Areas: Safety...... 465W Property Development: Floods ...... 466W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 484W Social Rented Housing...... 466W Human Rights ...... 484W Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 471W continued Army Reserve ...... 471W Middle East ...... 484W Charities Act 2006...... 471W Overseas Trade: Human Rights ...... 485W Energy...... 471W Sri Lanka ...... 485W Parades Commission...... 471W Police Service of Northern Ireland...... 471W HEALTH...... 515W Public Records ...... 472W Children...... 515W Tobacco: Packaging ...... 472W Continuing Care ...... 515W Hospitals: Liverpool ...... 516W TRANSPORT ...... 467W Infant Mortality...... 516W Charities Act 2006...... 467W Midwives...... 517W Energy...... 467W Neurology ...... 520W High Speed Two...... 467W Organs: Donors ...... 520W Level Crossings: Bassetlaw...... 468W Passive Smoking ...... 521W Motorways: Lighting ...... 468W Sepsis ...... 521W Parking: Pedestrian Areas ...... 468W Suicide ...... 522W Railways: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 469W Tobacco: Packaging ...... 523W Severn River Crossing: Tolls...... 469W Weather: Death ...... 524W Trans-European Networks ...... 469W

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 475W TREASURY ...... 482W Ambulance Services ...... 475W Business: Loans...... 482W Community Orders ...... 476W Child Benefit...... 483W Energy...... 476W Republic of Ireland...... 483W European Convention on Human Rights...... 477W Taxation: Appeals ...... 483W Firearms: Crime...... 477W Hillsborough Independent Panel...... 477W WALES...... 470W Mental Illness ...... 478W Charities Act 2006...... 470W Passports...... 478W Energy...... 470W Police Federation of England and Wales...... 478W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 472W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 481W Charities Act 2006...... 472W Internet Services Review ...... 481W Official Report: ICT...... 482W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 501W Children: Maintenance ...... 501W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 486W Electrical Safety: Publicity ...... 502W Baha’i Faith ...... 486W Energy...... 502W CDC ...... 487W Health and Safety Executive ...... 503W Developing Countries: Females...... 487W Hearing Impairment ...... 503W Housing Benefit ...... 503W JUSTICE...... 491W In Work Credit...... 504W Billing ...... 491W Industrial Health and Safety: Construction ...... 504W Charities Act 2006...... 491W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Wrexham...... 506W EU Justice and Home Affairs...... 491W Mental Illness ...... 507W Feltham Young Offender Institution...... 492W Occupational Pensions...... 508W Hunting Act 2004...... 492W Poverty: Children ...... 508W Judges ...... 494W Social Fund...... 510W Prison Service ...... 499W Social Rented Housing: Housing Benefit ...... 509W Prisoners: Foreign Nationals...... 500W Social Security Benefits...... 511W Registered Intermediaries...... 501W Universal Credit: Wales...... 511W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 501W Work Capability Assessment...... 511W Work Capability Assessment: Carmarthenshire ..... 512W LEADER OF THE HOUSE...... 463W Work Capability Assessment: Wales...... 513W Members: Employment...... 463W Work Programme...... 513W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 30 October 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 901] [see index inside back page] Minister for the Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Changes to Health Services in London [Col. 921] Statement—(Mr Jeremy Hunt)

Hate Crime (People with Learning Difficulties and Learning Disabilities) [Col. 940] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Ian Mearns)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [9th allotted day] Qualified Teachers [Col. 943] Motion—(Tristram Hunt)—on a Division, negatived Probation Service [Col. 986] Motion—(Sadiq Khan)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Chris Grayling)—on a Division, agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Petition [Col. 1039]

Rachael and Auden Slack [Col. 1040] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Enterprise [Col. 1049] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Cancer Patient Experience [Col. 261WH] Jam and Similar Products (England) Regulations 2003 [Col. 285WH] Electric Vehicles (Vulnerable Road Users) [Col. 294WH] Low Pay [Col. 316WH] Release of Bodies from Hospital [Col. 324WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 49WS]

Petition [Col. 5P]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 463W] [see index inside back page]