UK Financial Investments Ltd 2012
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House of Commons Treasury Committee UK Financial Investments Ltd 2012 Oral and written evidence Wednesday 14 March 2012 Robin Budenberg, Chairman, Keith Morgan, Head of Wholly Owned Investments, and Jim O’Neil, Head of Market Investments, UK Financial Investments Ltd Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed Wednesday 14 March 2012 HC 1896 Published on Friday 27 April 2012 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £7.00 The Treasury Committee The Treasury Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of HM Treasury, HM Revenue and Customs and associated public bodies. Current membership Mr Andrew Tyrie MP (Conservative, Chichester) (Chairman) Michael Fallon MP (Conservative, Sevenoaks) Mark Garnier MP (Conservative, Wyre Forest) Stewart Hosie MP (Scottish National Party, Dundee East) Andrea Leadsom MP (Conservative, South Northamptonshire) Mr Andy Love MP (Labour, Edmonton) John Mann MP (Labour, Bassetlaw) Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP (Labour, Wolverhampton South West) Mr George Mudie MP (Labour, Leeds East) Jesse Norman MP (Conservative, Hereford and South Herefordshire) Teresa Pearce MP (Labour, Erith and Thamesmead) David Ruffley MP, (Conservative, Bury St Edmunds) John Thurso MP (Liberal Democrat, Caithness, Sutherland, and Easter Ross) Powers The Committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk. Publication The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/treascom. The Reports of the Committee, the formal minutes relating to that report, oral evidence taken and some or all written evidence are available in printed volume(s). Additional written evidence may be published on the internet only. Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Chris Stanton (Clerk), Lydia Menzies (Second Clerk), Jay Sheth, Peter Stam, Renée Friedman, Adam Wales, Antonia Brown (on secondment from the Bank of England), and Lara Joseph (on secondment from the FSA) (Committee Specialists), Alison Game (Senior Committee Assistant), Steven Price and Lisa Stead (Committee Assistants) and James Abbott (Media Officer). Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Treasury Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 5769; the Committee’s email address is [email protected] List of witnesses Wednesday 14 March 2012 Page Robin Budenberg, Chairman, Keith Morgan, Head of Wholly Owned Investments, and Jim O’Neil, Head of Market Investments, UK Financial Investments Ltd Ev 1 List of written evidence 1 UK Financial Investments Ltd Ev 18 Treasury Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence Taken before the Treasury Committee on Wednesday 14 March 2012 Members present: Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chair) Michael Fallon Mr George Mudie Mark Garnier Jesse Norman Andrea Leadsom Teresa Pearce Mr Andy Love Mr David Ruffley Mr Pat McFadden John Thurso John Mann ________________ Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Robin Budenberg, Chairman, UKFI, Keith Morgan, Head of Wholly Owned Investments, UKFI, and Jim O'Neil, Head of Market Investments, UKFI, gave evidence. Q1 Chair: Thank you very much for coming this Robin Budenberg: Not at that stage, because it is the afternoon. As you may imagine, one of the important chairman who carries out the review of Stephen issues we want to examine is the remuneration of Hester. senior RBS staff. I would like to begin by asking you when you, UKFI, were first involved in any way in Q5 Chair: Did that meeting take place before or after discussions about Stephen Hester’s bonus. the Prime Minister’s very well-reported intervention Robin Budenberg: First of all, I should say our with his speech on moral capitalism on 19 January? involvement is obviously in our role as a commercial Robin Budenberg: It wasn’t a meeting. We had a investor in RBS, operating on an arm’s length basis. series of telephone discussions in which he was As such, the chairwoman of the remuneration getting our input, and certainly the first of those committee sees us on a fairly regular basis through discussions was well before that, yes. the year but in particular came to see us in, I think, early December, to talk about the way in which they Q6 Chair: What did he say? were going to approach the whole issue of executive Robin Budenberg: We went through the five criteria director remuneration through this year. I would say against which Stephen Hester is assessed, as set out in terms of substance, which I think is probably what in the remuneration report in last year’s RBS annual you are looking at, it was, I would guess, in the third report, and we went through each of those. He asked me for my views on Stephen Hester’s performance in week of January. At that point, again as you would each of those five areas. He then talked a bit about his expect, the chairman of RBS spoke to me about his perspective and, as we went through that conversation, assessment of Stephen Hester’s performance during clearly I got a good sense of where he was beginning the course of 2011. to come out in terms of his views. Q2 Chair: Why don’t we focus in on these events in Q7 Chair: When did you first discuss this specific set January just so we have a clear chronology of events? of issues with the Government or with anybody who Do you happen to know when the remuneration could represent the Government—that is, either a committee of RBS took the decision? Minister or an official? Robin Budenberg: The final decision, I believe, was Robin Budenberg: We were discussing remuneration taken on or around 26 January, if I remember rightly. generally with the Government through officials throughout the run-up to this process. As you know, Q3 Chair: So we need to look at the third and fourth the Chancellor made it clear to this Committee that he week of January. I hope we are able to move on quite was very interested in the RBS bonus process, so we were discussing those things with officials, so that quickly from this, but let’s just try to clarify this they were kept aware with progress. In terms of the chronology. You first met the chairman of precise output from those discussions with the remuneration to discuss specifically the decisions he chairman of RBS, I would say it was later on that would take on 26 January, in the third week of week, in the week before the 26th. January, you say? Robin Budenberg: The discussions with actually the Q8 Chair: Did you form a view about the advice that chairman of RBS, because Sir Philip Hampton is the you thought, as a shareholder, should go to RBS? person. Robin Budenberg: Yes. Q4 Chair: Just the chairman? You did not see the Q9 Chair: Did you communicate that view after the chairman of remuneration? meeting that you had with them, a specific view on Ev 2 Treasury Committee: Evidence 14 March 2012 Robin Budenberg, Keith Morgan and Jim O'Neil the advice you felt you should communicate with Q19 Chair: There does seem to be, doesn’t there, a respect to the 26 January decision that was pending? difference between what the Prime Minster said, when Robin Budenberg: Not a specific view, not in terms he said in response to a question he would act to stop of an exact proportion of the bonus that we felt would bonuses over £1 million, and what the Chancellor said be appropriate, but a general range, yes, we did. to you, which was that this was a matter for the RBS board? Q10 Chair: What was that range? Robin Budenberg: I can’t speak for what the Prime Robin Budenberg: I think our view was that broadly Minister said. our sense was that it clearly was not going to be close to 100%, based on what Sir Philip Hampton had told Q20 Chair: Do you think that your stance changed us, but would be more than 50%. That gives you a as a consequence of what the Government said to you, range of, I guess, 50% to 70%. We did not specifically or were you merely able to say that this was say, “This is what we think the range is. We think it confirmation of what you had already more or less will be less than the maximum”. decided among yourselves that you would take to the RBS board as your view? Q11 Chair: This is a per cent of— Robin Budenberg: Again, I think it is important that Robin Budenberg: The way in which the bonus for as a shareholder we do not dictate what the level of last year was established was directly in relation to bonus for Stephen Hester should be. That is absolutely the value of a pot of shares. a matter for the board. Our role is to be consulted in that, and if we think we have fundamental issues with Q12 Chair: This is a question of how much would that, our role is to make that clear to the board. be released? Robin Budenberg: Exactly. Q21 Chair: Did you consult other shareholders? Robin Budenberg: No. Q13 Chair: Roughly, what was the value of the 50% to 70% at that time? Q22 Chair: Do you think, were it to be fully put into Robin Budenberg: The share price went up 10% the public domain—and clearly only some of what during the period of these discussions.