Merle Haggard: The Big Interview Episode Number: 03 Episode Title: Merle Haggard Description: Country music legend Merle Haggard sits down for a rare one-on-one interview. He‘s been given one of this nation‘s highest achievements for the performing arts…he‘s been elected to the Country Music Hall of Fame, but it all started with a life behind bars.
ACT 1 DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)
TONIGHT...A COUNTRY MUSIC LEGEND...MERLE HAGGARD SITS DOWN FOR A RARE ONE-ON-ONE INTERVIEW. HE‘S BEEN GIVEN ONE OF THIS NATION‘S HIGHEST ACHIEVEMENTS FOR THE PERFORMING ARTS...HE‘S BEEN ELECTED TO THE COUNTRY MUSIC HALL OF FAME...BUT IT ALL STARTED WITH A LIFE BEHIND BARS.
RATHER
Between age nine and what, 20 or 21, you were in and out of well over a dozen institutions of one kind or another.
MERLE HAGGARD, COUNTRY MUSIC LEGEND
That'd be very conservative. The possibility of having-- a career in music was way out of reason. I didn't think that was possible, so I took to studying the bad way.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
ONE OF THE ORIGINAL OUTLAWS OF COUNTRY MUSIC...MERLE HAGGARD...ON, THE BIG INTERVIEW!
ACT 2
DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)
MERLE HAGGARD HAS RECORDED MORE THAN 40 NUMBER ONE COUNTRY HITS….LIKE MOVIN ON...IN 1975. HIS CAREER HAS SPANNED SIX DECADES. AND WHILE MOST PEOPLE HAVE RETIRED BY THE AGE OF 76, MERLE IS STILL ROLLIN‘ ALONG. TONIGHT, THE SMOKY MOUNTAIN CENTER FOR THE PERFORMING ARTS IN FRANKLIN NORTH CAROLINA WILL BE SOLD OUT. IN JUST A COUPLE OF
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HOURS 1500 FANS WILL JAM THIS PLACE…PAYING UP TO 50 DOLLARS A HEAD TO SEE AN ICON FOR, WHO KNOWS, MAYBE THE LAST TIME. I‘VE LISTENED TO AND FRANKLY ENJOYED HIS MUSIC FOR 50 YEARS… BEEN TO HIS CONCERTS...BUT I‘D NEVER MET MERLE HAGGARD.
MERLE HAGGARD, COUNTRY MUSIC LEGEND
Hey Dan, how are ya? How are you sir?
RATHER
Hi Merle how are you… Dan Rather, what a pleasure to see you, thanks for doing this.
HAGGARD
Well you‘re quite welcome.
RATHER
You have a good nap?
HAGGARD
Yeah I did.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
HAGGARD SPENT LAST NIGHT ...LIKE MOST NIGHTS ON THE BUS... TRAVELING FROM A CONCERT IN OHIO.
RATHER
Well, how the hell are ya?
HAGGARD
Well pretty good for an old guy, you know.
RATHER
Well you won‘t be able to talk to me about being old.
2
HAGGARD
What‘s your age?
RATHER
I‘ll be 82 this October.
HAGGARD
Well I‘ve gotta call you mister then right?
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
IT‘S TWO HOURS BEFORE THE DOORS OPEN...THE STAGE HAS BEEN BUILT...SPEAKERS SET...LIGHTS READY. HAGGARD HAS DONE THIS ROUTINE THOUSANDS OF TIMES BEFORE BUT HE STILL WANTS TO HEAR WHAT THE ACOUSTICS, WHAT THIS PARTICULAR HOUSE WILL SOUND LIKE TONIGHT.
RATHER
Well I‘m just going to take kind of a back seat here while you do whatever you do. What is it you are about you do?
HAGGARD
Well we basically check the electronics, see that our microphones are working properly and work on a couple of songs maybe, you know.
RATHER
Well let me step aside over in the corner and let you do what you do and I‘ll see you afterward.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
FROM THE FIRST NOTE…THE RICHNESS IN HIS VOICE…STILL RESONATES…AND FILLS THE EMPTY HALL….THESE ARE THE SOUNDS THAT HAVE TOLD THE TALES OF HIS LIFE... AND THE LIVES OF GENERATIONS OF AMERICANS.
LIKE HIS HIT SONG ―I CAN‘T GET AWAY‖... HIS MUSIC HAS ALWAYS BEEN FOR ‗THE COMMON MAN‘...THE WORKING CLASS. THE DREAMERS AND DRIFTERS WITH WHOM HAGGARD HAS ALWAYS IDENTIFIED …THEY ARE THE POOR AND
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PROUD. AND MERLE HAGGARD KNOWS POOR…HIS PARENTS MOVED FROM OKLAHOMA TO CENTRAL CALIFORNIA DURING THE DEPRESSION. THEY SETTLED IN BAKERSFIELD… HIS FATHER FINALLY FOUND A JOB WITH THE RAILROAD. AND THEIR FAMILY HOME WAS A CONVERTED BOXCAR THAT IS STILL STANDING TODAY IN BAKERSFIELD… A TOWN THAT WOULD ONE DAY BECOME SYNONYMOUS WITH HIS MUSIC. BUT IT WAS A LONG WAY TO STARDOM…
RATHER
You've described yourself several times as, and I quote now, ―a walking miracle.‖ What do you mean by that?
HAGGARD
You know, I-- I'm from a poor family. And-- when you lose half of the-- the house-- my father died when I was nine. So my mother was left with the entire operation, which wasn‘t much. I don't know how I could be any farther down than-- than I was. I mean, we were-- we didn't have no sidewalks. We didn't have no clock tower.
RATHER
Well, the profile is there. Home was-- a boxcar that was made into home? Lost your father at age nine. Between age nine and what, 20 or 21, you were in and out of what-- well over a dozen institutions of one kind or another.
HAGGARD
That'd be very conservative.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
HAGGARD BEGAN RUNNING AWAY WHEN HE WAS TEN YEARS OLD…STOWING AWAY ON A FREIGHT TRAIN TO FRESNO. HIS LIFE INCREASINGLY BECAME A CYCLE OF JUVENILE DELINQUENCY… HERE 16 YEAR OLD MERLE GETS VISIT FROM HIS FAMILY WHILE STAYING AT A DETENTION CENTER RIGHT OUTSIDE OF LOS ANGELES. BUT THESE STINTS WERE QUICKLY FOLLOWED BY AN ESCAPE. FLEEING CUSTODY BECAME HIS SPECIALTY… HE RAN AWAY AT LEAST 17 TIMES. IT WAS ONLY AFTER HE LANDED IN SAN QUENTIN – AND ITS 70 FOOT WALLS—THAT HAGGARD STOPPED RUNNING. HE WAS 19-YEARS OLD BY THEN AND IT WAS HIS FIRST TIME IN THE BIG HOUSE…BUT BECAUSE OF HIS ESCAPE
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RECORD, THE PRISON CLASSIFIED HIM AS ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS CONVICTS…
HAGGARD
With my record of escape they wouldn‘t let me out of my cell after 4 o‘clock in the afternoon.
RATHER
Because you‘d escaped so many times previously?
HAGGARD
Yup. So for the first-- 18 months, maybe a little more, I wasn't able to participate in any of the functions that were available, such as music. But-- with the help of the people that were playin' on what they called the warden's show, they were able to get my classification changed after about 18 months or so there. And I was able to-- to-- play the warden's show. And there was-- it's quite-- quite a deal. You get-- you get to-- I think we got two-- two packs of Camels and a steak dinner. And they didn't have no steak dinners in San Quentin except that one.
RATHER Yeah, I wanna take you back. You get out of San Quentin. And you started-- playing professionally. Is that when you started writing music? Or had you been writing music before then? HAGGARD
You know, I started writing music, or trying to write music-- when I was seven or eight years old. And-- it shows up in my report cards-- "Won't pay attention, starin' out the window. Has great potential. He could be a great student but he won't pay attention." Well, I was scribbling then, I was trying to write.
RATHER
Well, what happened? Because at some point you went into first truancy and then into-- crime and ever-increasing kinds of crime. Let's try to help somebody who's watching and listening who's struggling with being a parent or worried about their grandchildren. How did that happen? Why did that happen?
HAGGARD
5
You know, if you go-- if you go really down into the depths of things, it was-- it was about truancy. The education that I needed I knew was not in that classroom. So I was staring out the window.
RATHER
Right. So you-- you become a truant. And one of the things, you Hot Box cars and skip around. But that's truancy. How did it wind up leading to crime?
HAGGARD
Well, when you go to jail for truancy, they don't separate you from the hardened criminals. And so there was some old boys in there that had some-- what sounded like successful possibilities in the areas of crime, you know.
RATHER
Kind of a crime school?
HAGGARD
You bet. And I-- started to idolize people that-- Bonnie and Clyde and John Dillinger. The possibility of having-- a career in music was way out of reason. I didn't think that was possible, so I took to studying the bad way. When I went to San Quentin, I-- maybe for 18 months or so, I mighta just really had a lotta-- lotta fun there. I was playin' music and I had a job in the laundry. And the laundry d-- the guy that was runnin' the laundry didn't know whether we were there or not. We'd slip out in-- onto the football field and play guitars. And I had quite a business goin'. I had-- I was sellin' beer and cigarettes and had a loan company and--
RATHER
Inside prison?
HAGGARD
Yeah. And-- so I went to the parole board. And suddenly reality was slapped right in my face when one of the guys in there said-- leaned across the table and said, "Looks like you're havin' a real good time here." And I hadn't really thought about it that way, you know, talk to you later.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
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HIS PAROLE WAS DENIED...BUT STAYING IN PRISON BROUGHT HIM FACE TO FACE WITH A PERFORMER WHO WOULD CHANGE HIS LIFE…
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
THAT PART OF OUR STORY IS NEXT.
ACT 3
DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)
MERLE HAGGARD WOULD SPEND THREE YEARS INSIDE THE WALLS OF SAN QUENTIN… AND IT WAS ONE SEMINAL MOMENT WHILE HE WAS INSIDE….THAT HE SAYS CHANGED HIS LIFE...IT WAS A CONCERT BY A THEN UP AND COMING COUNTRY ARTIST NAMED JOHNNY CASH.
THIS IS ONE OF JOHNNY CASH‘S MOST FAMOUS PERFORMANCES AT SAN QUENTIN PRISON IN 1969…
BUT 11 YEARS EARLIER HE PLAYED ANOTHER CONCERT AT SAN QUENTIN FOR THOUSANDS OF PRISONERS...AND IN THE CROWD WAS A YOUNG MAN SERVING TIME FOR BURGLARY…
RATHER
True or untrue that you were in the audience as a prisoner in San Quentin when Johnny Cash came through and played.
MERLE HAGGARD, COUNTRY MUSIC LEGEND
Oh, that was true. He didn't meet me and I didn't meet him then. The-- the day he was there was-- was-- New Year's Day 1958. He'd been over in San Francisco out in a party the night before, and he'd sung or talked his voice completely off. He-- he just barely talk. Well, I thought this guy's in trouble, you know, there's 5,000 men here. And he can't talk. He can't sing, you know. And I was engrossed with wonderin' how he was gonna pull this off. Well first of all, country music was not like it is now. Country music was-- down your nose at that time, compared to what it is now. And so the visit of Johnny Cash was not all that-- cool in the joint. And-- before he started his show, he-- he asked for-- for a glass of water and-- pointed one of the guards and one-- and this guard was standin' in the daylight of the doorway chewin' gum. And
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Cash had the-- when he asked for the water, of course he had the audience, everybody-- lookin' at him, he-- and he mocked that guard. Well, he won the whole audience.
RATHER
It was-- the audience couldn't-- wouldn't dare to mock a guard.
HAGGARD
No. Well, when Cash left, there was-- there was guys all over that yard with guitars.
RATHER
You were one of them?
HAGGARD
Well, I was the teacher. I mean, they all knew that-- that I played and-- there must have been 20 guitar players. A kid had-- come up to me and said, "Can you show me how he did that intro, 'Folsom Prison Blues?'" And-- all of a sudden, we were more popular. We had more clout because we understood what that guy did.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
JOHNNY CASH AND MERLE HAGGARD LATER BECAME GOOD FRIENDS...HERE HAGGARD APPEARS ON CASH‘S TELEVISION SHOW IN THE EARLY 1970‘S...
RATHER
Well, I think of Johnny Cash often. My wife and I courted in the late '50s to-- the likes of "Ring of Fire" and Johnny Cash. Today, with Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, your Johnny Cash still make it?
HAGGARD
Oh yeah. If he wanted to. He was-- as I think about him, as I learned about him, as I grew to be friends with him-- I was pleasantly informed that he was very, very intelligent. He was not your average knife in the drawer, you know. And-- a lotta that stuff, it sounded like it mighta just been something they stumbled onto. They figured it out. They knew what they were doing.
RATHER
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Pretty much as you know what you're doing.
HAGGARD
Well, true, yeah.
RATHER
By the way-- you're on Facebook, Twitter. You do all that, do you?
HAGGARD
Yeah. My son does it all for me. I don't know anything about it.
RATHER
Well, what do you think about that? Has it changed the music business as a business?
HAGGARD
Oh, sure. There's few people in the world that it's done as much for as it has me. I already went to iTune and cut a deal with them. They're going to pay me a lot more money than they pay Joe Blow to sell my records through them. I don't need a record company anymore, for obvious reasons. I mean, and-- it's because of the new electronic availability. I mean, there's no-- there's no necessity for a record company. It's outdated.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
A FOOTNOTE TO MERLE HAGGARD AND SAN QUENTIN...IN 1971, HAGGARD AND THE PRISON WERE RE-UNITED ONCE AGAIN… THE CIRCUMSTANCES, HOWEVER, WERE FAR DIFFERENT. THIS FILM WAS RECENTLY FOUND IN THE ARCHIVES OF THE MERV GRIFFIN SHOW…A TELEVISION TALK SHOW FROM THE TIME. THE PRODUCERS SHOT HOURS OF FILM WITH HAGGARD AS HE TOURED SAN QUENTIN WITH HIS BAND...AND PLAYED A CONCERT FOR THE INMATES...JUST LIKE HIS FRIEND, JOHNNY CASH HAD DONE AT FOLSOM AND SAN QUENTIN.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
UP NEXT, HAGGARD BECOMES A MAJOR PLAYER IN A COUNTRY MUSIC REVOLUTION...IT WOULD BE CALLED THE ―BAKERSFIELD SOUND‖.
HAGGARD
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Well, it's homegrown. It's truly from Bakersfield, California. At a when that part of the country was made up mostly of-- Texans and Okies and Arkies and people from back east trying to find something.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
THE BIG INTERVIEW WITH MERLE HAGGARD...WILL BE BACK IN A MOMENT.
ACT 4
DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)
HALFWAY BETWEEN LOS ANGELES AND FRESNO, BAKERSFIELD CALIFORNIA IS NESTLED AT THE SOUTHERN TIP OF THE SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY...A REGION LONG RICH IN AGRICULTURE...AND EVEN MORE SO TODAY…IN OIL.
THE BAKERSFIELD LANDSCAPE IS MARKED BY HUNDREDS OF PUMP JACKS…. SEVENTY-FIVE PERCENT OF CALIFORNIA‘S OIL IS PRODUCED HERE. IT SEEMS AN UNLIKELY PLACE FOR THE RE-BIRTH OF COUNTRY MUSIC...TWO THOUSAND MILES FROM NASHVILLE...BUT IN THE 1950‘S THAT‘S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED...IT BECAME KNOWN AS THE BAKERSFIELD SOUND. AND THE FARM AND OIL WORKERS SOON BECAME THE PERFECT BLUE-COLLAR AUDIENCE FOR A YOUNG LOCAL SINGER NAMED MERLE HAGGARD.
RATHER
For any artist, it's just-- it's very difficult to describe the art. But how would you describe your music?
MERLE HAGGARD, COUNTRY MUSIC LEGEND
Well, it's homegrown. It's truly from Bakersfield, California. It has its origination in the oil fields and the cotton fields of Southern California at a time when that part of the country was made up mostly of Texans and Okies and Arkies and people from back east trying to find something.
RATHER
Fleein' the Depression, in some cases?
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HAGGARD
Yeah.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
DESPERATE FOR WORK, THEY CAME BY THE TRUCKLOADS TO CALIFORNIA FROM THE 1930‘S TO THE 1950‘S … THEY WEREN‘T ALWAYS WELCOMED BY THE LOCALS AND MANY WERE FORCED TO SETTLE IN MIGRANT CAMPS OUTSIDE OF TOWNS LIKE BAKERSFIELD...THE CONDITIONS WERE FAR FROM IDEAL BUT THEY BROUGHT THEIR MUSIC...WHICH FOR MANY, WAS THEIR ONLY ESCAPE. THE HAGGARDS ALSO MOVED WEST...AND ALTHOUGH THEY DIDN‘T LIVE IN THE CAMPS, MERLE‘S FATHER RENOVATED A BOXCAR THAT BECAME PART OF THEIR HOME. MERLE GREW UP IN BAKERSFIELD AND RETURNED HERE AFTER HIS TIME IN SAN QUENTIN. ALONG WITH BUCK OWENS, HAGGARD IS CREDITED WITH PROPELLING THAT NEW SOUND IN COUNTRY MUSIC INTO THE NATIONAL SPOTLIGHT…THE DIFFERENCE CAN BE DIFFICULT TO DEFINE...BUT IT‘S EASY TO HEAR.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
THAT‘S THE LEGENDARY OLD COUNTRY SINGER ROY ACUFF. HIS MUSIC, LIKE MUCH OF WHAT WAS CALLED ―HILLBILLY‖ OR ―HONKEY TONK‖ BEFORE WORLD WAR TWO WAS ABOUT TO CHANGE…RIGHT HERE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA...
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
FIRST IT WAS BUCK OWENS...WHO WAS BORN IN TEXAS BUT CAME TO BAKERSFIELD IN THE EARLY 1950‘S. HE INTRODUCED A ROUGHER, ROWDIER BRAND OF MUSIC THAT WAS EASY TO DANCE TO. COUNTRY MUSIC WAS BECOMING COUNTRY & WESTERN...FARM AND RANCH WORKERS MET OIL FIELD HANDS AND NO PLACE WAS MORE FAMOUS THAN THE BLACKBOARD CAFE….THE BAKERSFIELD SOUND WAS BORN.
T. ROCKWELL, CEO TROUTS NIGHTCLUB INC.
One of the great things about Bakersfield sound music … it‘s not just about ...certainly not about just putting you to sleep...it‘s something that makes your feet wanna tap...it‘s something that gets in that rhythm when you‘re walking ...when you‘re working…. songs like ―Under Your Spell Again‖ or ―The Fightin Side of Me,‖ uh ―Silver Wings‖ is certainly something that‘s tranquil and
11 that‘ll get a couple to the dance floor any day of the week that‘s one of our biggest requested songs out here is that ―Silver Wings.‖
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
T. ROCKWELL KNOWS A THING OR TWO ABOUT THE BAKERSFIELD SOUND….
ROCKWELL
Any hit that something like a Merle Haggard or a Buck Owens or Wynn Stewart or a Spade Cooley would have reached out for it gets people to dance more...so if ever wanna liven up a room, you pick an up tempo Bakersfield sounds…a two - four shuffle, you‘re gonna get that dance floor rocking and rolling right there.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
ROCKWELL IS THE OWNER OF TROUT‘S...ONE OF THE LAST SURVIVING HONKY TONKS IN A TOWN THAT ONCE HAD DOZENS.
ROCKWELL
Bakersfield didn‘t for the most part have country music per se. Certainly not as we know it today before 19-hundred and 38...so we had swing clubs and things like that. In fact Trout‘s in its current location in ‗45 we opened as a progressive jazz club.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
BUT IT‘S NOW CONTINUOUS COUNTRY. TROUT‘S IS STILL OPEN SEVEN NIGHTS A WEEK… BESIDES THE LOCALS, TROUT‘S IS A STOP WHEN INTERNATIONAL TOUR BUSES COME TO TOWN. ON THIS NIGHT IT‘S A GROUP FROM FRANCE... WATCHING COUNTRY WESTERN LINE DANCING AND LEARNING ABOUT THE BAKERSFIELD SOUND.
ROCKWELL
There is no part of country music in this world for the most part that is not somehow tied to the roots of the Bakersfield sound.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
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THE MUSIC … SOME OF IT THREE GENERATIONS OLD… TELLS STORIES HIS CUSTOMERS STILL WANT TO HEAR...BECAUSE THE LEGENDS WHO WROTE THEM ONCE SANG ON THESE STAGES.
BOB LEE ROGERS, OILDALE RESIDENT
You‘d come to Trout‘s and sometimes you‘d see Merle. We‘re talking about the 50‘s the early 60‘s, you‘d see Merle, you‘d see Buck, you know, Red Simpson and all of the people that made the Bakersfield Sound they were available at that time. Yeah, and it would be nice that we could go out and have a beer and hear them every time.
T. ROCKWELL
People enjoy hearing the stories...when people are losing their homes...when people are having to re-acclimate for new careers and wondering how they‘re going to have to reach out to feed their children...it takes thing back to things that are core...if you listen to songs like ―Mama Tried‘ by Merle Haggard, it emphasizes the relationship, the importance of a parent figure doing whatever it takes to take care and keep that family together….and so many of those magical songs that were developed then and continue to be developed in the Bakersfield region and beyond are important because they connect to the heartbeat of America...I love rock and roll and all those great genres. So much of that is for the weekend...country music is what we live.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
ON STAGE AT TROUT‘S THIS NIGHT WAS DION PRIDE...THE SON OF COUNTRY LEGEND CHARLIE PRIDE…
DION PRIDE, SINGER/SONGWRITER
You know don‘t hear a lot of organic country traditional songs that were written from a very wealthy person‘s point of view. It‘s mostly the common man. And I think that's why it‘s been so appealing on such a wide base is because the stories, so many people can relate to them.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
AND ON PRIDE‘S PLAYLIST IN BAKERSFIELD...MERLE HAGGARD
PRIDE
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Without Charlie Pride, Buck Owens, Merle Haggard, without these people, country would not be what it is today, and I am proud that country is what it is because it still tells a good story, it‘s an American tradition.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
MERLE WROTE OFTEN OF HIS TIME IN BAKERSFIELD...HE STILL LIVES IN CALIFORNIA...THOUGH NOT IN THE TOWN WHERE HE GREW UP. HE AND HIS FAMILY LIVE ON AN ISOLATED PARCEL OF LAND NEAR THE TOWN OF REDDING. MEANWHILE BACK IN NORTH CAROLINA...IT‘S THE MIDDLE OF THE SHOW...AND SOME IN THE AUDIENCE ARE ANXIOUS TO HEAR THEIR OWN HAGGARD FAVORITE...TO WHICH MERLE HAS A QUICK ANSWER.
HAGGARD
NO!!! NO!!! I‘M GONNA RUN THIS SHOW TONIGHT. THIS IS CALLED ―TONIGHT THE BOTTLE LET ME DOWN.‖
ACT 5 DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)
IT HAS BECOME ONE OF MERLE HAGGARD‘S MOST FAMOUS BALLADS...WRITTEN IN 1968, ―TODAY, I STARTED LOVING YOU AGAIN, IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE POPULARITY OF HIS MUSIC...AMONG OTHER ARTISTS. OVER THE YEARS IT HAS BEEN RECORDED AND PERFORMED BY NEARLY 400 SINGERS FROM DOLLY PARTON TO SHERYL CROW TO WILLIE NELSON. BUT HAGGARD‘S MUSIC TRANSCENDS COUNTRY. THE GRATEFUL DEAD ADDED MERLE HAGGARD MUSIC TO THEIR LIVE CONCERTS...AND SO DID ELVIS COSTELLO. AND HAGGARD HIMSELF HAS TEAMED WITH UNLIKELY ARTISTS. IN 2005 HE AGREED TO TOUR WITH A FOLK AND ROCK AND ROLL LEGEND.
RATHER
Bob Dylan. You played with him. What was that like?
MERLE HAGGARD, COUNTRY MUSIC LEGEND
You know Bob Dylan has a reputation of being an introvert--hard to talk to and-- and all of those things are true. We worked two years together and I think we had two conversations. But-- I've
14 never met a harder-working guy. He'd start every day-- his rehearsal would start usually around, you know, 12:00 or 1:00. And they'd play all day. And I'd go down and watch him.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
THE TOUR WAS THE FIRST TIME BOB DYLAN HAD ABANDONED HIS TRADEMARK GUITAR ON STAGE IN FAVOR OF A PIANO...
HAGGARD
And one day, I was standin' at the stage watchin' this perform-- his rehearsal. And-- and he walked over to me and he said, "What do you think?" I said, "About what?" And he said, "Well, the music." I said well, I said, "I guess it's just however loud you want the bass drum to be," you know.
HAGGARD
And he said "Something's too loud?" I said-- well there again, I said, "Bob, it's if-- what you like, I guess." He said "Well, gimme some more pointers." I said, "Well, pointers on what?" And he said, "What I should do on my show." I said, "Are you serious?" I said, "Do you really want me to tell you what I think?" He said, "Yes. I'm real serious." I said, "Well, get down behind that fuckin' piano and get your guitar and sing them songs that people come to hear." And he said, "Well, I won't be able to see my lyrics." I said, "You asked me, Bob." I said, "Those people wanna hear you sing them songs just like they did years ago." I said, they-- "They don't care about them new songs. They don't care about that piano. And that's-- that's just the way I see it."
RATHER
Did he take that advice?
HAGGARD
Well, a year later his sound man came to me and he said, "What in the hell did you say to Dylan that day?" And I told him. He said, "God, he's been on my ass about that bass drum every day." (LAUGH)
RATHER
Follow up on something you said. Said that your advice to Bob Dylan when he asked, was you told him to get out from behind the piano and get up and sing the songs that people wanted to
15 hear. Now, in your own case, People want-- hear you sing certain songs. They want to hear you sing "Okie From Muskogee," just take one example. You went through a period at least when you're just sick of singing "Okie From Muskogee." You didn't wanna sing it anymore. Willie Nelson I think has some-- somewhat the same feeling at least about "Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain." So my question is, how do you handle that?
HAGGARD
Willie said to me not long ago, he said-- he said, "If you get tired of 'Okie From Muskogee,' let me have it." (LAUGH)
RATHER
I'm not surprised. He's made you-
HAGGARD
He was serious as a heart attack.
HAGGARD
In our business, we have icons within- it. One of them people would be Ernest Tubb.
RATHER
The old Texas troubadour?
HAGGARD
Yeah. He was Willie's idol. He's my idol. He's-- you know, he was-- he was the only guy in the '40s, could outdraw Bob Wills. And-- Tommy Collins was-- was a songwriter, singer that got some recognition in the mid-'50s. And he was tourin' with Ernest Tubb one time and-- his biggest hit song was a song called "You Better Not Do That." And-- he told Ernest, he said, "I'm sick of that song." He said, "I just can't hardly do it anymore." And Ernest said, "That's bad, Tommy." He said, "That's the reason they bought the ticket.‖ So that's always come back in my mind when I might get a little tired of one of them songs. They're not a curse. They're a blessing. Those songs are-- "Mama Tried," you know, I get emotional about it.
RATHER
Because it was written as a tribute to your mother?
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HAGGARD
Yeah.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
HAGGARD FIRST RECORDED ―MAMA TRIED‖ IN 1968...THE FAMOUS LYRICS THAT TELL OF A REBELLIOUS YOUTH…―NO ONE COULD STEER ME RIGHT BUT MAMA TRIED‖...
RATHER
Your Mother must have been heartbroken any number of times, you running away from school and not coming home-- HAGGARD
I can't imagine-- what she went through, now as-- I've got six children of my own and I can't-- I really it's not just a phrase. I really can't imagine what she went through. Must have been awful.
RATHER
Merle, you've written so many great songs, and that isn't just my opinion. It-- not-- not even consensus. It's unanimous opinion. In your heart of hearts down where you live, what's your own favorite?
HAGGARD
Well, I never-- really-- really answered that. I-- if I had to choose one song, it'd probably be "Mama Tried." I think it's more poignant than-- than "Okie From Muskogee." "Okie From Muskogee" is a hit for other reasons, which a lot of them I'm not sure of.
RATHER
Well, it's pretty well known that you went through a period, a fairly long period, where I can't say your attitude was you wish you hadn't written it and sung it, you weren't ashamed of it but you thought it'd been misinterpreted. Can we talk about that?
HAGGARD
Well, it's changed its-- complexion-- like a chameleon. Over the years, I think they like it for different reasons now than they did when they first heard it.
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RATHER
Well, a lotta people when they first heard it, let's face it, so it was an answer to what they would consider the hippie culture of the 1960s. Counterpunch, if you will, to that.
HAGGARD
Right.
HAGGARD
And it's different now. And-- last night when I did-- I did it on the show and I tell 'em, you know, this is a song that I wrote for my father who hailed from the great State of Oklahoma. But I said, "I also wrote it for the people that smoked marijuana." (LAUGH)
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
COMING UP NEXT: MERLE HAGGARD ON MARRIAGE AND FAMILY.
RATHER
Well what have you learned from five marriages?
HAGGARD
It's very, very important to pick the right girl. (LAUGH)
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
WHEN THE BIG INTERVIEW CONTINUES.
ACT 6
DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)
EVEN WHILE ON THE ROAD, MERLE PLAYS WITH PART OF HIS FAMILY BY HIS SIDE. MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, HIS WIFE THERESA IS SINGING BACKGROUND VOCALS… AND AS A YOUNG BOY, MERLE‘S SON BEGAN TEACHING HIMSELF HOW TO PLAY THE GUITAR… AND IT PAID OFF… BEN JOINED HIS FATHER ON THE ROAD WHEN HE WAS 15 PLAYING LEAD GUITAR IN THE PART OF THE BAND THAT‘S BEEN AROUND SINCE THE 1960‘S... AFFECTIONATELY KNOWN AS THE
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STRANGERS… AT TONIGHT‘S SHOW THE AUDIENCE GETS TO SEE A LITTLE BIT OF MERLE‘S SENSE OF HUMOR…. DURING A JOKE HE PULLS OFF NEARLY EVERY NIGHT.
MERLE HAGGARD, COUNTRY MUSIC LEGEND
I‘d like to take a moment of your valuable time and introduce the strangers. Would you guys introduce each other so we can get that over with…
RATHER
Now, in your 70s, you've been married what, five times?
HAGGARD
I lost count, Dan. I think so.
RATHER
Well, what have you learned from five marriages?
HAGGARD
I learned-- one—that it's very, very important to pick the right girl. (LAUGH) This lady that I'm with now is gorgeous to begin with, but she actually likes me, I think. And-- you know, that'll sustain a good marriage. (LAUGH) A little bit-- just a little bit of love.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
MERLE HAGGARD FINALLY CALLS IT A NIGHT…. ANOTHER SHOW IS COMPLETE…AS THE CREW PACKS UP THE EQUIPMENT… MERLE BOARDS HIS BUS….NEXT STOP…CHESTER, WEST VIRGINIA….550 MILES AWAY. HE HAS A CONCERT THERE TOMORROW NIGHT.
RATHER
Well, and I mean, most respectful-- you don't have to work anymore. You don't need to work anymore. But why do it? Why fight it? Why hop on the bus and drive a thousand, couple thousand miles to another date in--
HAGGARD
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I'm scared of the loneliness. It could get awful quiet, awful quick. If you want to be left alone, they'll leave you alone. People leave you alone. But you don't want that, and I don't want it either. I mean, we wanna be what we have been all of our life, and we wanna continue, and we don't wanna ever die. And you know that's the-- the next big event. Once you retire, then—
RATHER
You're scared of the loneliness?
HAGGARD
Yeah.
RATHER
Now, I thought Merle Haggard feared nothing on this earth. (LAUGH)
HAGGARD
Loneliness is-- is a terrible thing. And, you know, the older you get-- the fewer people you know. I mean, you think about somebody 90 years old-- they don't know anybody that's older than them. You know, and it's-- it's gotta be-- a much better life if you're Merle Haggard with-- a big fan base tryin' to play and try to keep your craft up-- up to standards and I think that keeps you alive.
RATHER
I wouldn't argue that. But I wanna come back 'cause I've-- it-- been playing in my mind. I said, "Why do you still do it? you said quick, "scared of the loneliness." But you're now happily married, having gone through other experiences of married-- been married same woman a long time. You have six children, is it? Grandchildren yet?
HAGGARD
Oh, I've got great-great-grandchildren--
RATHER
Six children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren. Explain to me how you could say you're scared of the loneliness.
HAGGARD
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Well-- at the same time I speak of those great-grandchildren, I don't know 'em. And-- your family would be-- might be an acquaintance for a different reason. Maybe the wrong reasons. Whereas your-- your fans-- they really want nothin' but a performance. Somebody said money's not worth anything anymore, well they said-- but it'll keep you in touch with your grandkids. (LAUGH) You know, and it's my fear that they'll-- they'll not be-- sincere with me when they tell me they love me.
RATHER
Well, I'm gonna end by asking you a music question. Would you agree or disagree that probably the song you get the most credit for being the deepest and the best song you wrote was "Sing Me Back Home," and the line within it, "the warden led a prisoner down the hallway to his tomb"?
HAGGARD
"And I stood up to say goodbye like all the rest." "Sing Me Back Home" is-- is-- one of my best songs, there's no doubt about it. I think that even people that-- that have never been to jail know somebody that's been to jail. And they have-- an imagination of what it might be like. Someone can arrest you for something you didn't do and you go to prison. If you weren't Dan Rather-- you wouldn't get out. There-- there's people in-- all over this nation doin' time that didn't do anything. I think that would be a terrible thing.
RATHER
The song resonates partly because people say, you know, Merle Haggard has been there. He's been in prison. And this is a song that comes from his experience, comes from deep within him, and the resonance is there. Can't take anymore of your time. Again, my friend. I-- indebted to you--
HAGGARD
My pleasure.
RATHER
--for taking so much time.
HAGGARD
My pleasure, Dan.
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