Vol. 717 Monday No. 43 22 February 2010

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Afghanistan: Improvised Explosive Devices Employment: Older People Women: Non-executive Directors Extremism Business of the House Motion to Refer to Grand Committee Rail Vehicle Accessibility (London Underground Metropolitan Line S8 Vehicles) Exemption Order 2010 Motion to Approve Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Bill [HL] Report Personal Care at Home Bill Committee Passports: Mahmoud al-Mabhouh Statement Personal Care at Home Bill Committee (Continued) Prisons: Early Release Statement Personal Care at Home Bill Committee (Continued) CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme Order 2010 Motion to Approve Personal Care at Home Bill Committee (Continued)

Grand Committee Media: Local and Regional Newspapers Prisons Iran: Human Rights Public Services: Co-location Questions for Short Debate

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2010, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 807 Afghanistan[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Afghanistan 808

we cannot always bolt on what others may use. However, House of Lords we take into account the experience and daily evidence Monday, 22 February 2010. that we can get from our allies. 2.30 pm The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, bomb disposal officers and NCOs are highly trained and extremely Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester. valuable. Is the noble Baroness satisfied that the casualty rates among bomb disposal officers and NCOs are not Afghanistan: Improvised Explosive Devices too high, and are we having difficulty in recruiting and training enough members of those units? Question Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, it is true that 2.37 pm unfortunately we have had several casualties. These Asked By Lord Addington soldiers are highly trained, very brave and take a great number of risks on behalf of their colleagues. Those To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether British who undertake this kind of work are volunteers, and it troops in Afghanistan have the same equipment for has been possible to find volunteers to undergo the detecting improvised explosive devices as their NATO training at present. We are continually in the process allies in the International Security Assistance Force. of trying to expand the skills that we have in this area. However, we should be under no illusions about the The Minister for International Defence and Security dangers that these people face. We should all be very (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): My Lords, first, I am sure grateful for the work that they undertake. that the whole House will wish to join me in offering sincere condolences to the families and friends of Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords, can the Minister Private Sean McDonald of 1st Battalion The Royal tell the House how many urgent operational requirements Regiment of Scotland, Corporal Johnathan Moore of for the detection of planted IEDs have been placed by 1st Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, Warrant the MoD since our deployment in Afghanistan was Officer Class 2 David Markland of 36 Engineer Regiment, increased last autumn? Has the Treasury agreed that Lance Corporal Darren Hicks of 1st Battalion Coldstream these UORs will be financed from the Consolidated Guards, Lance Sergeant David Greenhalgh of Fund and not met by defence budget funds? 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, Rifleman Mark Marshall Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, the urgent of 6th Battalion The Rifles, Kingsman Sean Dawson operational requirement estimate has now been uplifted of 2nd Battalion The Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, by £101 million based on the forecast spend on UORs Sapper Guy Mellors of 36 Engineer Regiment, Lieutenant in the current operational climate. That brings the Douglas Dalzell of 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards total estimated expenditure on UORs for the year and Lance Sergeant David Walker of 1st Battalion 2009-10 to £736 million, and that does not include the Scots Guards, who were killed on operations recently plans to spend over £700 million on protected mobility in Afghanistan. vehicles. The Treasury has recognised this particular I turn now to the Question. For operational security area, and I think that the Prime Minister’s Statement reasons, I cannot comment in detail on the equipment last year made it clear that for everyone in Government, used by UK Armed Forces and our allies to detect countering the IED threat, which is so important in improvised explosive devices in Afghanistan. A range this campaign, is a very high priority indeed. of technologically advanced equipment is in service, including metal detectors and explosive ordnance disposal Lord Luke: My Lords, first, we associate ourselves robots, to ensure that our troops can operate. with the condolences read out by the Minister concerning the casualties in Afghanistan. Lord Addington: My Lords, I associate myself and Given the very grave public concern surrounding Members on these Benches with the condolences just the improvised explosive device threat, can the Minister expressed by the Minister. Does she agree that it is be a little more specific about the work being undertaken imperative, when we are operating closely and in similar in the UK, and with our NATO allies, to deal with the circumstances with our allies, that any information IED threat, and the timescales to which they are derived by our allies when testing equipment should working? immediately be made available to us, and that that should be reciprocated when we test equipment of our Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, I cannot be own? very specific about the work that is going on, because by its nature it has to be kept somewhat confidential Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, a very so that we do not put our troops under unnecessary comprehensive memorandum of understanding is in threat. However, I can assure the noble Lord and place between ourselves and the United States and, indeed the House that everything possible is being indeed, with other allies on counter-IED measures. It done. One of the most significant initiatives was the includes everything from intelligence to the equipment tiger team set up by the MoD last year to bring that can be used, although I would point out that together the best brains from industry and the scientific equipment is only a small part of our defences against community, inviting new ideas and then evaluating these particularly obnoxious devices. We do of course them. That is a very exciting project. It is ongoing include our allies in terms of sharing information and because the threat is developing all the time. Although we use the information that they give us, but often we we are sharing that information with the United States, are operating in somewhat different circumstances, so which is very interested in it, it is important to realise 809 Afghanistan[LORDS] Employment: Older People 810

[BARONESS TAYLOR OF BOLTON] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, that this is not a one-off event of trying to find Department for Communities and Local Government & something that will counter all IEDs in future. We Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of have to adapt our technology because the nature of Luton): My Lords, while the young person’s guarantee the problem that we face is evolving, and we have to is focused specifically on younger jobseekers, who try to anticipate what the next steps should be. It is an have suffered the largest rise in ILO unemployment exceptionally high priority for everybody in the military rates during the recession, unemployed people aged 50 and the MoD. and over continue to receive access to a wide range of support through Jobcentre Plus, including the Flexible Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I understand New Deal. Meanwhile, 50,000 of the 170,000 jobs that the Americans have found drones very useful as a we are creating through the Future Jobs Fund are means of watching when people are likely to be placing available for people of all ages in areas of high IEDs in Afghanistan. Are we doing the same thing, unemployment. and do we have enough drones for the purpose? Baroness Greengross: I thank the Minister for that Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, drones are reply. The Government were right to concentrate initially extremely important in that area as well as in other on the young but many older workers find that premature areas. By the end of last year we had increased very exit from the job market really means early retirement significantly our capability in terms of the hours that because employers will not take them on for what they we have available for drones: by 33 per cent for Hermes, see as a short period. A recent CIPD report showed 50 per cent for Desert Hawk, and 80 per cent for our that three-quarters of these people need to work past Reaper capability. We acknowledge the very real the state pension age because this affects their pension. importance they can play, but I emphasise that the Given that the number of over-50s who are unemployed equipment we have is only one part of the battle. It is increased by 136 per cent in the year to last October, also about our tactics and procedures, and the training will not the Minister review— we give our troops. Overall, taking all those things into account, we have made real headway, and we are Noble Lords: Order! working very closely with allies to share our experience and indeed to learn from them. Baroness Greengross: I am sorry. I am asking a question, my Lords. Earl Attlee: My Lords, will the Minister pass on the thanks of this House to the scientists and engineers at Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I recognise various MoD establishments who do such brilliant that the noble Baroness is asking a question, but it and diligent work in developing the countermeasures? should be sharp and to the point.

Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, the noble Baroness Greengross: Will the Government look Earl raises an important point. Very often the people again at the statistics I have quoted and review their who do this essential and vital work are behind the position as a matter of urgency? scenes and we should take every opportunity to commend them on the efforts they make on our behalf. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, this question is highly relevant because the Leader of the Opposition Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, returning to the has reached the age of 50 today. The House will point raised by my noble and gallant friend Lord understand that I would not wish to offer him any Craig, does the Minister agree that the question is not redeployment opportunities from the Dispatch Box. I so much about how much urgent operational requirement recognise that this is a serious question. It is right that money has been provided by the Treasury, but about we invest in young people, who are the future of our how much is then going to be clawed back from the country, and ensure that they are not allowed to drift defence budget? into long-term unemployment at the start of their working lives. We have made significant investment in Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, an agreement new measures for jobseekers of all ages. In the recent was reached on UORs some time ago and is in the White Paper, Building Britain’s Recovery, we announced public domain. Over a certain limit the MoD will more help for older workers. This includes new, specialist, make a contribution, not least because the equipment back-to-work support for the over-50s; a widening of developed under urgent operational requirements is access for over-50s to work in job trials, where older now becoming mainstream equipment for everyone in jobseekers would benefit from earlier access; and ensuring our Armed Forces. that over-50s with significant barriers to employment receive early access to the six-month offer. We are reviewing the default retirement age. Employment: Older People Question Lord Roberts of Conwy: Of the 923,000 young people under the age of 25 who are unemployed, how 2.46 pm many are actually participating in the Government’s guarantee scheme? Asked By Baroness Greengross To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, ILO will extend the job guarantees available to young unemployment figures fell in the last quarter for the unemployed people to those aged over 50. number of people under the age of 25 who are 811 Employment: Older People[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Women: Non-executive Directors 812 unemployed and 266,000 people in that category are Women: Non-executive Directors in full-time education. As for the numbers in the Future Jobs Fund, we have approved 104,000 to date. Question 2.53 pm Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, I am sure the whole House will join me in congratulating Asked By Baroness Prosser the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, on his birthday To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps today, and I am sure I speak for many of us in wishing they are taking to increase the number of women him many more years as Leader of the Opposition. non-executive directors on public and private boards. The Minister talked about unemployment rising more slowly among the over-50s than among the young, but The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness is he aware of the sharp difference in the figures for Royall of Blaisdon): My Lords, whether in the private men and women? Among men, long-term unemployment or the public sector, boards that have a diverse mix of has gone up by more than 50 per cent in the last year people and talent make better decisions. We have set for the over-50s, compared with only 23 per cent for challenging targets to improve the diversity of public women. Why does he think that is and what steps is he appointments and have a clear action plan in place, taking to avoid a whole generation of men over the including raising awareness of public appointments age of 50 being thrown on the scrap heap, as they were and new mentoring programmes for potential candidates in the Thatcher recession? from underrepresented groups. As the women’s employment strategy published earlier this month set Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the noble out, we are also working with business leaders to find Lord is right that unemployment has increased more a business-led solution to improving diversity on private for men than for women, but we are seeking to avoid sector boards. the many mistakes of the last recessions through the support for all over-50s, which I outlined earlier: new Baroness Prosser: I thank the noble Baroness for specialist support to get them back to work; help with that reply. Given that there is an overwhelming barriers to employment, such as skills training; and understanding of the value of diverse debate and additional time and training for Jobcentre Plus advisers decision-making, would she agree that, while the figures to work with individuals in that category. are dispiriting in both the public and private sectors, advances could be made on private boards by establishing an exemplar group of companies, where the possibility Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, given the of target numbers could be discussed and best practice importance of flexible working to companies during guidelines produced? this recession, how does the Minister plan to promote a change in culture towards flexible working, not least Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, that is to ensure an intergenerational workforce where the certainly an interesting idea, which I shall discuss with skills and knowledge of the over-50s can be passed my noble friend Lord Davies of Abersoch, who is down to the younger generation? having discussions with company chairs and nomination committee members about the need for boards to have Lord McKenzie of Luton: The noble Baroness raises the right mix of skills, knowledge and experience. He a very important point. We know that a significant is talking also to headhunters about these matters. He number of older people would wish to work past the is determined to make progress on this issue, because, age of 50, or even past state pension age, if they could with his vast experience, he can see what society is work part time, which is why the December White missing out on because there are not enough women Paper announced plans to work with employers to on these boards. encourage and help them to understand the benefits of flexible and part-time working. Baroness Morris of Bolton: My Lords, does not the Leader of the House agree that it would be easier for Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords— the Government to persuade private companies if they looked a little closer to home? Is she content that, Noble Lords: Front Bench. across all departments, women fill only 32.9 per cent of senior Civil Service positions? Lord Freud: My Lords, in the light of reports that Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am certainly local authorities are planning 20,000 redundancies, not content with that figure. The Government are how many jobs have been displaced by the young looking at this and working with departments to ensure person’s guarantee and how many are estimated to be that, as with all public boards in the Civil Service, we displaced in the future? ensure that there are women coming up through the ranks who are able and willing to take senior positions. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, this is not about displacing jobs. We all recognise that the public Baroness Northover: My Lords, what does the noble expenditure backdrop is a challenging one, which is Baroness make of the fact that two of our publicly why local authorities are focusing on programmes owned banks, RBS and Northern Rock, have only one such as Total Place and innovative procurement as woman each on their boards? In the case of RBS, that ways of dealing with services in the future to make appointment was made only this last January. Does sure that people are supported and that resources are she think that alpha males have contributed to the shifted from the back office to the front line. success of these companies? 813 Women: Non-executive Directors[LORDS] Extremism 814

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I was as Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I think that shocked as the noble Baroness when I read those that is an excellent idea. Women should be at every statistics this morning. I then also read a Financial level, on every board, including remuneration committees. Times editorial, which said: “If there is ever a time for women to make a decisive breakthrough Earl Ferrers: My Lords— in corporate boardrooms, it is surely now. Many boards, especially in financial services, are in flux after the testosterone-fuelled Lord Berkeley: My Lords— excesses that led to financial disaster”. Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I think that it I could not have put it better myself. is the turn of my noble friend. We might just be able to Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, following get the noble Earl in as well. on from that, will my noble friend comment on the fact that the SSRB, a public board, has not a single Lord Berkeley: When the noble Baroness and my woman member? That is a matter of some concern to noble friend Lord Davies are talking to private and Members of this House, where we discuss the board’s public company chairmen, could they find time to talk report. to the chairman of Network Rail? He has just appointed some new board members, but there is still only one Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: MyLords,itisa woman among a board of 16. matter of concern to me, too. I spoke about it to the chairman of the SSRB, who pointed out—quite rightly— Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: Yes, my Lords, I will that when the board sought new members recently it gladly make contact with the chairman of Network did not have the number of women coming through to Rail. be interviewed. Quite frankly, that is not good enough. Earl Ferrers: My Lords, does the Leader of the There are women out there who could come forward, House agree that, whatever their merit, both the questions but perhaps the advertisements and the headhunters and the answers are very discriminatory? who were used did not identify them. That is something in which we must all engage constructively. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I do not think that I am being discriminatory in any way. Baroness O’Cathain: My Lords, not only are there no women on the SSRB, but we were told categorically Lord Acton: My Lords, has my noble friend read that there were no adequate women who could be put the speech that the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, made in on it. Excuse me! Does the noble Baroness really think December 1957 on the subject of women? Is she aware that we ought to employ these people again? that the question that he has just asked is a model of enlightenment compared to that? Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: I would not wish to comment on the noble Baroness’s latter point, but I Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I have think that there are many, many women out there who indeed read the speech by the noble Earl. I did not would serve admirably on that board and on many know whether to cry or to laugh. However, I know others. We have to ensure that they are properly identified that the noble Earl has made a huge change in his and know that the opportunities are there for them to views since then and I am glad that he is now the grasp. enlightened person that he is. Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: Do the Government Earl Ferrers: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware recognise that women are underrepresented in many that at that time, which was some years ago, I was senior positions, such as in academia across university giving the views of the youth and the young generation, deanships and so on, and that many women do not which is what everyone wants to listen to? Of course, have a linear career path? Part of the problem for as time has progressed, you change your views, sometimes headhunters is that they look at CVs that reflect a a little, sometimes a lot, but you are still the same linear career path, but these do not represent women person. who have stopped off, had children and developed their careers at different times. There is an endemic Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: Indeed, my Lords. culture of not recognising how women peak at a different time in their careers because of their different Extremism responsibilities. Question Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I completely 3.02 pm agree with the noble Baroness. Job specifications are extremely important. I do not think that headhunters Asked By Baroness Knight of Collingtree understand these things at the moment. That is why To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they my noble friend Lord Davies and others are working intend to combat the threat of extremism among with them to ensure better understanding in future. Muslims in Britain. Lord Dykes: My Lords, should not the Leader of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home the House and the Government specifically focus on Office (Lord West of Spithead): The Government are women being on the boards of directors and on the committed to tackling all forms of extremism. CONTEST remuneration committees, particularly in financial presents our strategy to reduce the risk from international companies, as a very effective way of deterring outrageous terrorism. The Prevent strand aims to stop people bonuses? from becoming or supporting violent extremists. 815 Extremism[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Extremism 816

The international terrorist threat is mainly from with regard to terrorism? The Minister said that the al-Qaeda and AQ–influenced groups, which primarily strategy was about prevention, but has he carried out seek to recruit vulnerable individuals from Muslim an assessment of the impact of the cutbacks in Foreign communities. Muslim communities, though not the Office expenditure in Pakistan and how they are affecting sole focus, remain a priority for Prevent support. the radicalisation process over there?

Baroness Knight of Collingtree: My Lords, does the Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the noble Lord is Minister think that the recent permission given for a right—Prevent is not about stigmatising any communities hard-line Muslim priest—Yahya Ibrahim, banned in at all. There is no doubt that the vast majority of America—to come to Britain to speak in a number of Muslims oppose violent extremism; only a tiny minority British universities might just be adding to the extreme are violent extremists. That is why we have close concern expressed by the State Department in America, liaison with a number of people from all faiths and and have led to the House of Commons Select Committee communities within the Prevent strategy. to describe our approach to the al-Qaeda programme With regard to funding, we have spent £240 million as “lethargic”? on Prevent over the past two years, a level of spending that had not been there before, within this country at community level and above. Foreign Office spending Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the noble Baroness on Prevent is at about £80 million over the past three touches on a very sensitive point: who we deal with, years. That is a lot of money, and it is more than has who we talk to, and who we allow to come into the ever been spent. There have been constraints on some country. There are very specific rules about who we of that but overall it has still increased, and it is an can stop coming in and, in the assessment of the important part of the whole package. Home Secretary, the particular individual talked about did not meet the cut-off level for not being allowed in. I am proud of our Prevent package. We had not We are always dealing with some organisations which, really talked about these issues until about two and a one could argue, are on the cusp of these things. It is half years ago; we had certainly not done very much. vital that we engage with them because sometimes We were all culpable, in that in the 1990s we did not they can make a genuine difference in stopping violent understand this pernicious radicalisation of tiny numbers extremism, though they might have views that we of people in our midst—we just had not spotted it. abhor. That was an error. We picked it up in our CONTEST strategy and we pointed it out. We now understand it This is a very difficult balance. We have done a lot to a degree; we are still learning, but we are doing a lot over the past two and a half years. I think that we have of good things to try to counter it. got better at this, and that we have got a better understanding. We have made some mistakes, but we Lord Ahmed: My Lords— have learnt from those and we are much better at it now. As far as the Americans go, they are really The Lord Bishop of Leicester: My Lords— impressed with our Prevent strategy. They did not have a similar strategy, and they see it as a very good Lord Eden of Winton: My Lords— example. They have some views about how they would adjust it, and we are in very close dialogue. But we are Noble Lords: Bishop! doing the right thing, and it is very important that we have done that. Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I think the House would like to hear first from the right reverend Lord Wright of Richmond: Surely a major cause of Prelate. Muslim extremism is the failure of our Government and other members of the quartet to stop the continuing The Lord Bishop of Leicester: My Lords, does the expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, and Minister agree that one of the unintended consequences the eviction of Palestinians from East Jerusalem. of the Prevent strategy has been at times to reduce trusting relations between Muslims and those of other faith communities in some of our cities? Does he agree Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, over many years that programmes designed to build up those trusting I have travelled to the Middle East in various guises, relations, like Leicester City Council’s mainstreaming whether as Chief of Defence Intelligence, First Sea moderation agenda, are a more productive way forward? Lord, commander of a battle group or whatever, and now of course as a Minister. This is a significant and Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the right reverend important issue, and there is no doubt that it poisons a Prelate raises a valid point. I see these programmes as lot of other issues. The British Government are clear being complementary—they all work together. Things on our views on it. The noble Lord is right that a like our Channel programme do a huge amount in resolution of the affairs in the Middle East would identifying and pulling out those who are vulnerable make a huge difference to extremism; it would change and working with local communities. The vast majority it fundamentally. of our Muslim community understand this and are becoming linked in to the Prevent agenda. I am not Lord Dholakia: My Lords, does the Minister accept pretending that we have got everything right; this is a that a large number of people from the Muslim difficult and sensitive area, and we are working hard community are law-abiding citizens and that it would and learning lessons all the time. These things all work be wrong to generalise about or stereotype that community together, though, and all of them are needed. 817 Extremism[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 818

Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords— Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am very Amendment 2 sorry, but we have reached 30 minutes. Moved by Lord Low of Dalston 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out “(2)” and insert “(1A)” Business of the House Motion to Refer to Grand Committee Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendment 4. It is a pleasant change to be moving 3.08 pm the first amendment in Committee instead of being Moved By Baroness Royall of Blaisdon last up at 10 pm, as I have been on several recent occasions. However, I can be as brief in moving this That the report of the Merits of Statutory amendment as one is obliged to be at 10 pm. At Instruments Committee on What happened next? A Second Reading, the noble Baroness asked me to work study of Post-Implementation Reviews of secondary with the Government to make the Bill and its guidance legislation (30th report, Session 2008–09, HL Paper 180) stronger and more effective. It is in that spirit that I be referred to a Grand Committee. move this amendment today. Motion agreed. The amendment would make it a legal requirement for service providers to involve users of those services Rail Vehicle Accessibility (London in decisions on how they will discharge their functions Underground Metropolitan Line S8 under the regulations. Apart from this being good practice as a matter of course, there is a particular Vehicles) Exemption Order 2010 reason for making this a legal requirement in the Bill. Motion to Approve Two recently introduced statutory instruments—2655 and 2678—made two very welcome changes to benefit 3.09 pm rules applying to service users who are paid for their Moved By Lord Faulkner of Worcester involvement in the work of a variety of bodies in the health and social care field. One concerned the treatment That the draft order laid before the House on of reimbursed expenses as earnings and the other the 12 January be approved. 5th report from the Joint application of what are known as “notional earnings”. Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 9 February. However, the new rules cover only those whose involvement is required by law. Those whose involvement Motion agreed. is merely a matter of good practice or a response to policy guidance are not covered. The new rules do not Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Bill apply unless the involvement of service users is required by statute or is commissioned by a public body that is [HL] required by law to involve service users. I am moving Report this amendment to make absolutely sure that service users who are involved in decisions about how the new 3.09 pm regulations are implemented will be covered and able Report received. to derive the benefit of the new benefit rules. I beg to move.

Arrangement of Business Earl Howe: My Lords, I speak very briefly to support Announcement the noble Lord, Lord Low, in all that he has said about service user involvement. He has cited various good, 3.09 pm technical reasons why his amendment should receive Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, with the leave sympathetic treatment from the Minister, but what of the House, my noble friend Lord Brett will repeat troubles me about the Government’s policy for rolling as an Oral Statement an Urgent Question allowed in out free personal care to the elderly is the prescriptive the Commons on the use of fake passports by the feel of the policy. It has a kind of “take what you’re persons implicated in the murder of Mr Mahmoud given” feel. As such, I cannot help feeling that it cuts al-Mabhou at a convenient point after 3.30 pm. At across the trend towards greater personalisation in another convenient point after 5.30 pm, my noble social care, on which—to be fair to the Government— friend Lord Bach will repeat the Statement entitled, there has been a lot of encouraging progress in recent “Prisons: Early Release”. years. Before you can get free care, you have to tick a Personal Care at Home Bill whole series of boxes, at the end of which you are either entitled to the service on offer or you are not. By Committee contrast, the premise of the personal budget is the 3.10 pm exact opposite: it starts from the position of saying that service users should have choice and control over what they buy to meet their care needs. Clause1:Freeprovision of personal care at home The policy will also, I think, serve to disincentivise Amendment 1 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled people from engaging in prevention programmes before List. serious health problems set in. If people are led to 819 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 820 believe that they do not have to worry much about The Lord Bishop of Norwich: My Lords, I add my looking after themselves should their physical condition support for the amendment. One of the most distressing deteriorate, they may well be less motivated and less features of increasing incapacity is a sense that you fully engaged in trying to stay healthy. Involving service can be disempowered from making decisions about users and their carers in decisions about the type of your life. If we are talking about personal care at care that is appropriate and necessary is absolutely home, care cannot be imposed on people, because it essential. I hope the Minister will find a way of ensuring then treats the human person as an object to be done that, at the very least, the guidance to local authorities to. The value of the amendment is that it recognises on the issue makes this point clear. that real care includes a degree of reciprocity, while recognising all the practical problems that have already 3.15 pm been mentioned. The sort of consultations that are Baroness Wilkins: I strongly support the amendment, suggested here would make it feel like real care. I hope which would place an explicit duty on service providers the Minister will feel able to accept the amendment. to involve service users in arrangements made under the Bill. This is very much in line with the Government’s Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I am replying to policy of devolving power to disabled people and Amendments 2 and 4, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord realigning care and support systems so that they promote Low, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe. It is appropriate real choice, control and personalisation. These are that we should be discussing now, right at the beginning goals that current legislation actively thwarts. Unless of the Bill, the importance of the involvement of users you live in an area—and such areas remain the and carers in determining care needs. These are entirely exception—where the local authority is at an advanced appropriate amendments, each addressing slightly different stage of implementing self-directed support and individual aspects of this area. However, I think that we all agree budgets, you will find that your care package remains how important it is that an individual should be something handed down to you, rather than something involved in determining how their own care needs can you actively participate in, design or own. Many people best be met, by being involved in the assessment and continue to receive services they would not choose for decision-making processes. themselves and much provision is arranged for the That is the whole ethos of the transformation agenda convenience of the provider, rather than being tailored in Putting People First. The excellent work going on in to what the individual needs. councils such as Manchester, Trafford, Oldham, Essex The amendment would provide a valuable corrective and others demonstrates the value of life-changing to this lingering culture of paternalism. It could also projects which ensure that people who need care are provide an invaluable guarantor of the cost-effectiveness involved in shaping it. I am not claiming that this of the new free care offer. There is copious evidence happens everywhere, but we know that there is very that self-directed support achieves better outcomes for good practice that needs to be spread throughout the people with the same resources. I strongly urge the country. Minister to give a firm commitment today to embedding Our aim is to put people in the driving seat to the principles of choice and control in the arrangements enable them to be in control of their own lives, as made under the Bill. explained by my noble friend Lady Wilkins. It is important to say that there may be situations where a Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, in theory person has the onset of a degenerative or other the amendment is good but I have some questions neurological condition, as pointed out by the noble about it. I am interested in the comment of the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, and it is no longer possible Baroness, Lady Wilkins, about so many care packages for them to determine what is best for them. In these being designed to suit the carer. At Second Reading I situations, others must be entrusted to make the right mentioned how people are being put to bed at 6 pm decisions. In doing so, they have to be mindful of the when they would rather stay up for the ten o’clock provisions of the Mental Capacity Act and seek to do news. It is important to ensure that these users of this in a way that is not only in the person’s best services have a say and are involved. However, it is interest but follows as much as is possible what the clearly impossible to accommodate everyone because person would have wished for themselves. This House not everyone can be put to bed at 10 pm. That is why it has discussed that Act on many occasions. must be spread over a period. Although in theory I We will continue to encourage councils and to absolutely agree with the amendment, in practice it is champion those which do good work with their user not as easy to implement as we imagine. My other organisations. We do not believe that we need to insert question is about those users of such services who are new provisions into the Bill to do so, because we not capable of making decisions. Exactly what provision already have directions made under the National Health will there be for such people where they rely on someone Service and Community Care Act 1990 that support else to make decisions? user involvement in care planning. These directions already place a statutory requirement on local authorities Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, I support to ensure that people receiving care services have the amendment for the reasons already given. One of appropriate input into determining their care. the great dangers in providing care services is that we The noble Lord, Lord Low, rightly said that his move inevitably towards a “one size fits all” approach amendments refer to the users of services being involved to suit the institutional providers of care. This is a in those decisions. The problem is that they conflate welcome corrective and I support the principle of the the functions with which the regulations will be concerned, amendment. which concern the eligibility for free personal care, 821 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 822

[BARONESS THORNTON] and the functions relating to the delivery of free personal Amendment 3 care themselves, which is not something with which the regulation power of Section 15 is concerned. However, Moved by Baroness Masham of Ilton it is right that people receiving care are involved in the 3: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out “(5)” and insert “(5A)” development of their care plans, which is a key element Baroness Masham of Ilton: The Bill before your of the principle of personalisation that we have already Lordships has no right of appeal for those people who begun to develop over the past two years. We have desperately need personal care and may have been been working to transform adult social care. rejected by their local authority. It is very important I therefore say to the noble Earl that it is entirely that people who have been denied the right to personal consistent with the approach of personalisation. The care and feel that they have been wrongly assessed Bill will be setting through the regulations, when they should have the right of appeal. are made, an entitlement to free personal care. People Staff working in many different fields have the right will then receive a personal budget that can be spent of appeal for many different reasons. Why should flexibly with their carer to meet their needs, and guidance service users be denied this right? Why has the right of will make that clear. appeal been left out of this Bill? In order to establish Several noble Lords have said that they agree with this, it is necessary first to amend the Community the principle of this—as do the Government. We think Care (Delayed Discharges etc.) Act 2003. This is covered that the regulatory framework is there. However, we by Amendment 39, which creates the right of appeal. believe that what the noble Lord, Lord Low, is proposing Amendment 3 simply amends Clause 1(1) of the Bill would be covered in guidance. We would be very to make it clear that the community care Act is being happy to re-emphasise this in guidance and to discuss amended. it with the noble Lord and others as the guidance is There is a growing army of elderly people, some of developed. whom have serious and complex neurological conditions. Finally, I understand from the noble Lord’s remarks When money is scarce, it will be very easy for local that he was concerned that user involvement in this authorities to refuse much-needed help. Some local way might result in some people being pushed above authorities have a very dogmatic approach to the the threshold of certain benefits if they receive a small people who need help. It is the wish of most people to payment for their involvement. I can assure him that stay in their own homes and, if possible, to die there. that would not be the case. This is not a scheme that However, that is not for everyone. I will give your will involve payments for user involvement. I therefore Lordships an example, having received an e-mail last ask the noble Lord, with those assurances, to withdraw week from the daughter of an elderly lady. It states: the amendment. “These are my views and those of my mother. The Government seems set on providing care for elderly people in their own homes, Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, I am grateful to stating that this is their preference. However, the sad fact is that the Minister for her reply and to all noble Lords who many elderly people, like my mother, live alone and long for have spoken and given the amendment a warm welcome. company. Although she has carers coming in three times a day, The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, made they stay a very short time to deal with household and personal a couple of points. I think that the Minister probably care tasks, and she then spends many hours alone with no-one to responded to the point about users who are unable to talk to. For this reason, there should be choice so that those with families nearby or close friends can have the opportunity to stay represent their own needs or have difficulty in doing in their home with the help they need. But for those without this so. On the point that it is not possible to meet everyone’s resource and who express a preference, a move into a care home needs simultaneously, thoroughgoing implementation will mean constant companionship, planned activities during the of the personalisation agenda should help in that day and the stimulation of conversation with others. Research regard. However, I am largely reassured by what the shows that constant stimulation is beneficial to the elderly and Minister said, in that a statutory requirement for aids good health. Leaving an elderly person to cope in their own home can lead to isolation, depression and vulnerability to poor service users to be involved does in fact exist under the health”. community care Act. That being the case, there is probably no need for the amendment to be put on the 3.30 pm face of the Bill. I was glad to hear the Minister say that I brought up the need for a right of appeal at it is her intention to emphasise that requirement in Second Reading but had no response from the guidance, and possibly to give further guidance as to Government. I hope that this time there will be a how to discharge the obligation. positive reply. As people’s needs vary so much, choice I shall read carefully what the Minister said and see and flexibility should be the policy of all local authorities. whether there is anything that we need to return to on Unfortunately, that so often is not the case. Therefore, Report. I was a bit concerned when she said at the end an amendment to the appeals system should be in of her response that people would not be paid. place. Would it not be possible for the Care Standards Arrangements differ from one body to another, and Tribunal, which deals with many appeals from members sometimes payments are made for this kind of user of staff, also to deal with appeals from service users involvement. I would want to be sure that, where there who have been turned down by their local authorities? was a practice of payment, this could be maintained I hope that the Government and your Lordships will without, as she said, pushing people above the benefit accept this amendment. I beg to move. thresholds. For the time being, I am happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Earl Howe: My Lords, I have added my name to these amendments, which follow on very neatly from Amendment 2 withdrawn. those in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Low. When 823 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 824 the provisions of the Bill are brought into force, there Baroness Murphy: I add my two penny worth to this will be many decisions that will go the wrong way from amendment. I rather naively thought that there was a the point of view of the service user. I am afraid that right of appeal; perhaps I have misunderstood. For we are going to see a lot of disappointed people out example, there is a rather arbitrary cut-off point as there. There needs to be a formal process by which regards whether a person receives half the attendance service users can make representations and be sure that allowance or the full attendance allowance depending their concerns will be considered objectively. I therefore on the level of disability. The majority of appeals strongly support the noble Baroness’s amendment. against the half-day rating are found for the appellant. Those decisions are often very arbitrary and are not Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I also support founded on a proper understanding of the impact of a the noble Baroness but I am concerned about a number person’s disability. Therefore, it is clear to me that of things. One is the point she has just made about the there must be a right of appeal. If it is not there person who would prefer to be in a care home rather automatically in the Bill, I add my support for the than live in their own home. As I understand it, there amendment, but I hope very much that the Minister will be a perverse incentive there in that if, under the will tell us that it is already in there. Bill, you are one of the people who will be eligible to receive free care, you will not receive it unless you are Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I always hate to disagree already in the very limited category of those who have with the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, on these their residential home paid for. Therefore, we are kinds of issues because she understands so much probably eliminating the element of choice for those about them. However, like my noble friend Lady Gardner, people who would prefer to go into a home but not to I am worried about the costs and the work which we have to pay for their care, whether it was in a home or are imposing on local authorities. I should make plain wherever. I think we are almost discriminating in this that if someone would like to pay the costs which my way, in that the Bill proposes to help those in their own wife and I incur for her care, I would be extraordinarily homes but not to help them if they make a choice as in grateful. However, I wonder whether anybody has a the case described by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham. realistic idea of what those costs are. That is one of my There are two different issues here. I support completely worries about the Bill. If we then added to all these the right of appeal because I think that, under normal costs the perverse incentive that my noble friend Lady justice, we all expect to have the right of appeal on any Gardner mentioned of allowing those who qualify for and all issues. However, I am concerned about the free care at home to take that free care with them into bureaucracy that will be required to cope with the a care home, that would be quite extraordinary because appeals, because I imagine that there will be a huge it would mean that they would be better off than number of them. Once people get the feeling that, no people who had been in the care home originally. matter what your income is, you can have your care at Although Her Majesty’s Government were no doubt home for free, everyone will want to appeal on that. inspired by all sorts of good and decent feelings in this The proposal, according to the noble Baroness, Lady matter, they have not quite thought through—nor Masham, was to have a separate external body hearing have some of my noble friends thought through—the the appeals. I think that is essential because local complications, possible perverse incentives and sheer authorities will not possibly be able to cope. They will scale of the cost involved. be hard-pushed enough coping with the assessments proposed under the Bill, never mind the appeals against I think that my wife qualifies for about £60 a week them. Therefore, I support the principle of the right of for her care. We sometimes have a good laugh about appeal but I am concerned about how the process just how much care can be provided for £60 a week. It would work in reality. is pretty darned little. I would be very happy to tell the Minister in private exactly what it does cost to care for Lord Lipsey: My Lords, I support the amendment someone like my wife at home. moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham. I emphasise the point borne out by her moving quotation—the Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: I understand and fact is that most people living at home get very small accept the validity of the points that have just been amounts of care of, typically, six hours a week, typically made. One of the lacunae in the Bill is the uncertainty confined to week days. The Government may say that about the relationship between care in residential contexts that will all change but they have spent all the money and care at home. For example, what happens if someone on making the care free, so they are not going to have comes from a care-at-home situation and needs care in any left over to provide much more care. In those a residence, which could well happen part-way down circumstances, unless the Government’s costings are the system? So there are lacunae in the Bill, but I hugely increased so that far more care is made available would like to detach those from the question of whether at home, as well as it being free—that would explode there ought to be and sensibly should be an appeals the Government’s costings—the reality is that for many system of some kind. I can think of two practical people staying on at home is not a bearable option. I grounds for having an appeals system. One is that shall refer to that later in the debate. It is therefore all evidence has shown in the past that appeals will come the more essential that something is done to prevent in anyway. Indeed, two or three years ago they came in the bias in the Bill—it can be put no less highly than in their thousands to the health ombudsman’s office. that—against people who need a lot of care, will not That office was not set up specifically to deal with this get it at home and who, if they go into residential care, need, but appeals will go somewhere and, in that will unfairly have to pay for it whereas people who sense, it would be far better to have an appeals system receive it at home will not. that was understood within the context of the Bill. 825 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 826

[LORD SUTHERLAND OF HOUNDWOOD] It is right that people should be able to pursue a The other point is that it would be a considerable challenge if they feel that the wrong decision has been discipline, for those who agree what criteria should be taken. The noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, and the noble applied, to have those criteria plain and understood Baroness, Lady Gardner, highlighted why we will be and with as much objectivity as possible in such a asking the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, to withdraw difficult situation. That being the case, there would be her amendment. We do not wish to create a separate fairly straightforward grounds, I would hope, for settling and potentially bureaucratic layer to deal with this on whether a particular appeal should be upheld. There top of the existing complaints system. People already are cases to be made for supporting an appeals system, have an opportunity to pursue their case, if necessary despite the continuing problems of the Bill. as far as the Local Government Ombudsman. This House has discussed the work of the Local Government Ombudsman on previous occasions and noble Lords Baroness Barker: I want to make a point that I hope have remarked how effective and accessible the will endure for the whole of our debate: it is a plea for ombudsman has been and is. We are reluctant to clarity about terms. A couple of weeks ago, I listened create another mechanism over and above that, as that to a senior member of a local authority social services would add to the costs and the administrative burden department make a complete hash of explaining care placed on councils and it might create confusion for brokerage to a roomful of people. She managed, in the users. course of five minutes and two sentences, to confuse care assessment, care brokerage, negotiation of services The noble Baronesses, Lady Masham and Lady and funding. Gardner, raised the issue of people being able to It is important that, in talking about an appeal, we choose whether to stay at home or move into residential recognise that there are three different appeal processes care. The purpose of the Bill is not to remove choice. in social care. One is an appeal against an assessment We recognise that some people will choose to enter of needs, the second may be an appeal against the residential care—we will discuss the issue later in basis on which that assessment was made—that is, the Committee. However, we are also encouraging local criteria—and the third is an appeal against the decision authorities to work with, for example, the voluntary about what funds or, indeed, services to allocate to sector to encourage the development of wider community somebody. I assume that the noble Baroness, Lady services for older people who are lonely. Here the Masham, wishes to do all three of those, but I want us noble Baroness made an important point. She also to be very clear all the way through these discussions asked whether it would be possible for the Care Standards about precisely what we are talking about, because Tribunal to deal with these appeals. I have already those three assessments need to be done entirely separately. addressed that. The appropriate appeals system is already recognised in this area. The noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, will understand that, although it is interesting to follow where the money The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, and the noble comes from, it is absolutely essential that the analysis Lord, Lord Lipsey, raised the issue of the incentive for of need be independent. Not only might the individual people to stay at home because it is free when a user wish to appeal against that, but crucially their residential setting may be more appropriate. The decision carers might wish to do so, because of the way in about the appropriate care setting for people should which those assessments are commonly done. I reiterate: be made first based on the person’s needs and whether please could we have some clarity about terms throughout they have carers who can help with some of them. The this debate? The 47 amendments that have been put Bill will give people a breathing space sometimes to down show that this afternoon is all about clarity and stay at home for longer, rather than going into residential definition, which may be the only thing that we achieve care. at the end of our debate. Therefore, we should be very Amendments 3 and 39 would require the Secretary careful about the terms that we use. of State to make regulations to establish a specific appeals mechanism for those who believe that they are 3.45 pm entitled to indefinite provision of a free qualifying service but have been denied it by their local authority. Baroness Thornton: My Lords, in replying to I have explained why that is not an appropriate route Amendments 3 and 39 in the names of the noble to go down. As the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, said, Baroness, Lady Masham, and the noble Earl, Lord it is important that decisions on free personal care are Howe, I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady as fair and transparent as possible. People who believe Barker, for her helpful explanation of the issues on that they have not been treated fairly and that the which one might appeal. We recognise that clarity and criteria have not been applied fairly should have the transparency are important here. That is why we are right to challenge the local authority’s decision. Refusals putting a great deal of emphasis on developing what to provide free personal care that are felt to have been the department calls a national tool—I know that the wrongly determined should be dealt with under the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, will cringe when I use that existing procedures. We intend that this area should be expression, but he knows what I mean—that all councils considered as part of the review policy within 12 to should use to assess people with the highest personal 18 months of implementation. care needs to ensure a consistent approach. Therefore, people who are unhappy about their assessment, about Several noble Lords asked whether the system would the package of reablement or about the package of be overburdened by appeals. As part of the review that care should have the right to make a complaint to the will take place within 12 to 18 months of implementation, council in the usual fashion. the issue of whether the appeals procedure is appropriate 827 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Passports: Mahmoud al-Mabhouh 828 and working will be considered. I hope that the noble bin Zayed, the Emirati Foreign Minister, who confirmed Baroness will accept that, while it is entirely right that that they would be sending us details of at least two people should be able to appeal and that the appeals further British passports that may have been involved. system should be accessible, we should not create a It would be wrong of me to prejudge the SOCA new system on top of that which already exists. investigation. But let me make it crystal clear that no part of the British Government, either Minister or Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, I thank all official, had any foreknowledge of Mr al-Mabhouh’s the noble Lords who have spoken. This whole situation killing or the use of British passports in it or of any is very complex. One of the most complex things is clandestine operation being planned. To suggest otherwise that the people who have the highest personal care is to make an irresponsible allegation without any needs are going to be the ones that get it free. However, basis in fact. what happens to those who may not have the highest needs? Do they get nothing? I can see local authorities I know that there is considerable concern among saying, “We haven’t got any more money, so you can’t honourable Members about the possibility of the role have any help”. of the Israeli authorities, so I should set out our exchanges with them. On 18 February, the Israeli What worries me tremendously when I think of ambassador came to the FCO for a meeting with the people who may be diagnosed with motor neurone permanent under-secretary, and earlier this afternoon disease is the slowness of assessments. They need my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary met quick assessments and quick help and they sometimes the Israeli Foreign Minister, Mr Lieberman, in Brussels. He do not get it. I would like to discuss this whole matter underlined the deep discontent felt in this country, in with Members such as my noble friend Lord Sutherland, this Government and in this House over the issue. He who is an expert on these things, and with other noble made clear that we regard the killing of Mr al-Mabhouh as Lords so that we can get something satisfactory written profoundly unhelpful for the cause of peace in the into this Bill to avoid confusion, because I am sure Middle East and stability in the region. He stressed that there will be confusion—indeed, there is already a that we require full co-operation from the Israeli authorities lot of confusion about this whole Bill. This issue needs with the SOCA investigation. looking at in depth. My right honourable friend said that we would This afternoon has been useful, but it shows how stand ready to work with Israel on bringing stability difficult the whole situation is. A growing army of and peace to the Middle East, but that we can only do people are becoming more elderly and more disabled so on the basis of trust and mutual transparency. and need help. I will read carefully what the Minister Honourable Members are rightly concerned about the has said and maybe come back on Report. I beg leave impact this incident has had on the British nationals to withdraw the amendment. involved. Our embassy in Tel Aviv has been in touch Amendment 3 withdrawn. with all six of those whose passports have already been reported as having been misused. We will do all House resumed. we can to ensure that they get the consular support they need”. Passports: Mahmoud al-Mabhouh Statement 3.55 pm Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I am grateful 3.51 pm to the noble Lord for repeating this Statement by the Lord Brett: My Lords, with the leave of the House, Minister for Europe in another place. Does he accept I shall repeat a Statement made in the other place by that a staggering number of questions arise from this my right honourable friend the Minister for Europe. deeply serious, bizarre and very sinister episode? These The Statement is as follows. questions are quite aside from the facts of the apparent “Mr Speaker, although new facts continue to emerge, assassination and whether it furthers in any way the let me set out the facts as we know them. On 19 January, cause of peace in the Middle East. Those questions Mahmoud al-Mabhouh was killed in Dubai. The first are possibly for another time. press reports about this death appeared on 28 January. We are left with some very ugly feelings indeed On 31 January, the Emirati authorities confirmed to about our own passport system and its integrity. Does our officials press reporting that European passports the Minister accept that the debasement of our passport had been used, and undertook to provide us and documents and the apparent identity thefts involved others with further details. This was followed up by in this case strike at the heart of our sovereignty and embassy officials in Dubai and Abu Dhabi on several security, and can he confirm or elaborate on what occasions. assurances the Government of Israel have given that On 12 February, the Emirati authorities informed there has been no abuse of any kind of our intelligence UK officials in London that UK passports might—I co-operation with them? That is very important. Can repeat, might—have been involved. On 15 February, he explain a little more, even at this stage, how on they confirmed this and provided the details of six earth these passports were forged, if they were forged, British passports involved. Soon after on the same or cloned, if they were cloned—or were they copied or day, they provided a full briefing to the media. On stolen? Were they older British passports without 17 February, the Prime Minister announced a full microchip technology, or were they the newer documents, investigation by the Serious Organised Crime Agency. in which case can we draw the conclusion that this sort On 21 February, the Foreign Secretary spoke to Abdullah of thing is now less likely to happen? 829 Passports: Mahmoud al-Mabhouh[LORDS] Passports: Mahmoud al-Mabhouh 830

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] today that the Foreign Secretary has met Israel’s Foreign How soon did the Government first learn of these Minister, Mr Lieberman, and expressed his deep passport thefts? The Statement tells us that the discontent. Was that not expressed to Mr Ron Prosor assassination took place on 19 January, and that, at the meeting on 18 February, and if not, why? What apparently on 12 February, the British were warned by has changed between 18 February—four days ago—and the UAE authorities that British passports might have today, to make the Foreign Secretary far clearer about been involved, which was confirmed on 15 February. the implications for Israel of this extra-judicial killing, Almost a month passed between the killing and the as the Minister has just told us in the Statement? information coming to light, which seems an extraordinarily long time. At what point was the Serious Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Before the Minister replies— Organised Crime Agency involved? I understand that the agency operates from a base in the British embassy Noble Lords: Order! in Abu Dhabi. Was it aware of the impending difficulties and the involvement of British passports before Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: It is on a point of order. 15 February, or was it news to the agency as well? The annunciator has been saying for the past five minutes that we have been talking about the Personal Does the noble Lord agree that this is very worrying Care at Home Bill. If we were in another place, we indeed for a number of groups? At present, British could raise a point of order and have this sorted. passport arrivals in the UAE get a visa waiver. I say Members outside this Chamber do not know that this “at present”, and one hopes that there is no question Statement is taking place. of that changing. However, does the Minister accept that all passport holders—especially those travelling Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, unfortunately there in the entire region where we have good friends and are no points of order in your Lordships’ House. maintain good relations which we wish to develop and Therefore, the Minister is due to answer the noble strengthen; and particularly all those whose identities Baroness on the Liberal Democrat Benches, and my have been stolen—really need swift and urgent noble friend. reassurances that our system is secure and that this kind of thing can never happen again? 4.01 pm Lord Brett: My Lords, I apologise that the annunciator 3.58 pm is not performing its duty. It was at the beginning. I hope that the earlier announcement, which was in Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, we green on the red annunciator screen, will have alerted share the sentiments expressed by the noble Lord, noble Lords to be here. Lord Howell of Guildford. These are very serious I begin by echoing the statements from both Opposition matters that touch on attempts to get a peace settlement Front Benches—certainly from the noble Lord, Lord in the Middle East, on the safety and security of our Howell—that we look at the integrity of UK passports own citizens, and on the ability of our passport, with very great concern. We would be most concerned intelligence and other services to secure the integrity at any suggestion of debasement. I will try to deal with of data held on British citizens. The Minister has the questions in the order in which they came. given us the chronology of the events. That bare chronology is known to all, but two or three issues First, in order to put things into context, I should come out of it. say that at least two criminal inquiries are taking place: the SOCA inquiry into possible misuse of British If, as the Minister said, UK officials were told that passports, and, in the Emirates, a murder inquiry. I am British passports might have been used on 12 February, not sure what will happen in our European partner can the Minister confirm why it took until 18 February countries whose passports also were misused—Ireland, for the Israeli ambassador to be invited to a meeting Germany and France. We have to be somewhat careful, with the head of the UK Diplomatic Service? The certainly in apportioning blame. I can do no better citizens of this country would expect that when their than to start by referring to the statements made by security is so endangered and when such a serious the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary on breach resulting in identity theft has taken place in 18 February. The Prime Minister made it clear that we what is ultimately an unstable part of the world, the have to get to the bottom of this question, then we can UK Government would be slightly more agile in see where we go and what remedial action to take. investigating the matter and calling in the relevant The noble Baroness raised the question of what the ambassador in a more efficient manner than the response of the Israeli ambassador was. I think that chronology reflects. we saw it, because he made a brief statement on Can the Minister confirm that the security of other television. He simply said—I think that it is a fact—that data held on databases which we might share with he would take the message from the UK Government Israeli government sources is not compromised? Can back to his Government. That was as far as he went. he also confirm that all measures are being taken to The meeting that took place today between the Foreign reassure these British citizens that their security is Secretary and his Israeli counterpart was requested by uppermost? the Israelis some 10 days ago. I have related, as my To end, I ask the Minister to touch on the rather colleague in another place has, the response of the curious interpretation of events around the meeting of British Foreign Secretary. In turn, we await the response 18 February between the Israeli ambassador and Sir Peter of the Foreign Minister of Israel. I am sure this will be Ricketts. It seems that it was inconclusive. We do not reported back to your Lordships’ House in one form know what happened at the meeting, yet we are told or another. 831 Passports: Mahmoud al-Mabhouh[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Passports: Mahmoud al-Mabhouh 832

The gap in time was the other issue that concerned Lord Brett: As I have indicated to your Lordships’ both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness. Fifteen House in the past, I do not find a great deal of benefit February was the first occasion on which we knew the in attributing blame to one side or the other. Suffice it names of the six British passport holders. We made to say that there is enough blame to go round. On this inquiries between 12 and 15 February, but it was made occasion we are looking at a specific act which appears clear by the police authorities in the Emirates that they to have involved the use of British and other European wished to conclude their initial investigation before passports. That is a matter of major concern. We have they contacted any other foreign embassy. It was only instigated an inquiry and we have sought the co-operation at the point when we received the passport details that of the Israeli authorities by telling us what they know. we could start to investigate whether they were forged It would be injudicious to go any further than that or real. We know now that they were not real. We are until we have some indication of the Israeli response offering assistance to the passport holders and reassuring and the outcome of the inquiry. them about the reissue of passports and so on. We take seriously the compromising of the British Lord Eden of Winton: Is the noble Lord aware that passport system. To answer the noble Lord’s question, it was recently reported that a British passport-holder, these were current, not old, passports, but they did not on arrival in Israel, had the experience of having his have within them the facility that we have with biometric passport removed? It was taken by the authorities and passports, which will be fully introduced by 2012 and kept for 15 to 20 minutes—presumably long enough to will be much more difficult to forge. On this occasion, photograph it—and then returned to him without we do not know how the forgery took place and I am explanation. Would the noble Lord look into that sort sure that that will be one of the issues that the Serious of matter? Organised Crime Agency will continue to investigate. We are seeking the co-operation of the Emirates and Israeli authorities in conjunction with our European Lord Brett: If the noble Lord would care to write to partners, who also have an interest in this issue. me, giving me chapter and verse, I will certainly pass it to my Foreign Office colleagues so that we can look As I say, we have not received any reassurances into it. The truth is, when passports cross international from the Israeli Government. At the moment we have borders, however briefly, that information is recorded no proof of an extra-judicial killing, whatever supposition in one form or another. The issues here are: how did we might have and whatever speculation there has these British passports get to be misused by whoever it been in the press. The Government should be commended was, and what is the implication for those and other for their clear and speedy response in setting up the British passport-holders? SOCA inquiry, which will report to the Identity and Passport Service and, through it, to the Home Secretary. I am sure that when in due course that inquiry is Lord Tebbit: My Lords, the Government would be completed, the outcome will be reported to Parliament. very wise to comment only on the facts which are known and to stay well clear of a great deal of the 4.06 pm speculation. Sooner or later we may well learn more. Lord Wright of Richmond: My Lords, I am one of When we do, there will be the occasion for further the many Members of this House who has long been debate. But until then, I feel it is best that we let arguing that we should be talking to Hamas. Does the matters rest. Minister agree that, given the inevitable conspiracy theories that will arise from the use of British passports, Lord Brett: I agree entirely with the noble Lord. it is essential that the Government condemn this crime? Many Members of your Lordships’ House have greater Whatever the circumstances and whatever the influence with the media than I have, and I would be responsibilities, does he agree that we should condemn grateful if that message was passed on. unequivocally the murder—the death—of a senior member of Hamas? Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I, too, commend my Lord Brett: The Statement is clear that we do not noble friend on his Statement. I would have been able see this death—judicial, extra-judicial or whatever—as to commend him even more if I had been in to hear it, having any helpful effect on what every good thinking but unfortunately, as I said earlier, the Annunciators person wants: a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian were not working. Since he is also a Whip, can he problem that is acceptable to both sides. In that sense, make sure through the House authorities that this it is certainly a setback. thing is sorted out? I understand there is to be another On the broader question, talks with Hamas take equally important Statement, and it is important that place indirectly. Hamas is talking to the Egyptian Members, especially those of us who come from long authorities, so it is not a question of it not being aware distances, are given notice. The Member opposite on of the British Government’s and other European the Front Bench, clever as always, points out that the Governments’ views, or vice versa. However, we are Annunciator has changed, but it took 10 minutes for it not in a position where we talk directly to Hamas. to change. Some of us not as lucky as the Front Bench opposite have offices on the other side of the street Lord Clinton-Davis: While recognising that the and we have to find our way over from there. There falsification of British passports was totally unacceptable, should be adequate notice of any Statement that is will my noble friend attempt to keep the matter in being made. Members outside this Chamber might perspective? Did the deceased ever condemn the killing have wished to take part in the previous Statement and of innocent Israeli citizens by rockets aimed by Hamas? might wish to take part in the next. Can my noble 833 Passports: Mahmoud al-Mabhouh[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 834

[LORD FOULKES OF CUMNOCK] To be that bridge, the Bill needs to open up the way friend give us an assurance that he will take it up with to a much more varied and flexible set of options. We the House authorities? What is the point of having have already considered some of the pitfalls that look someone sitting on the Woolsack all through these set to await us as a result of the lack of clarity in some Statements if he has no power to do anything to alert of the definitions that will determine eligibility for free Members as to when they are being made? care. In any decision about eligibility, so much will be at stake that people are unlikely to take a refusal lying Lord Brett: My Lords, I shall take my noble friend’s down. I genuinely fear an explosion of complaints, concerns away and discuss them with the House appeals and litigation. authorities. Many of us see conspiracy theories in lots The obvious way forward is to preserve the core of issues. In my lifetime, “cock-up theories” has proved idea of a more generous deal for those in critical need to be a more accurate description. This was unfortunately of care, but to cut the cake differently so that there is a a technical hitch or, as I put it very ungrammatically more graduated scale of preferential charging and and in very poor language that is not acceptable in therefore much less incentive for people to dispute the your Lordships’ House, a cock-up. results of an assessment. The difference between having substantial needs and having critical needs will often be quite narrow. The difference between requiring help Personal Care at Home Bill with four activities of daily living and requiring help Committee (Continued) with only three may be equally narrow. Therefore, I ask the Minister what thought the Government gave, 4.13 pm as an alternative to offering free personal care to all those people with critical needs, to the idea of a Amendment 4 not moved. graduated preferential scale of charging under which local authorities would be able to take into account not only the acuity of a person’s need but also their Amendment 5 personal financial means. Moved by Earl Howe I mention means-testing here with no apology. The cost-benefit analysis contained in the impact assessment 5: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, at end insert— seems to me the loudest warning bell, if any were “( ) In subsection (1), after “charge” insert “or charged at a needed, that we are in danger of creating an unsustainable prescribed rate (“preferentially”)”.” system. People who can afford to bear some or all of the cost of their personal care cannot in the current Earl Howe: My Lords, I will speak at the same time climate be considered a more important priority than to Amendments 6, 14, 16, 27 and 40. One of the main those without financial means whose need for care concerns about this Bill which emerged at Second may be only very slightly less acute. I am no advocate Reading was the deeply unsatisfactory way in which of the postcode lottery, but I believe in local authorities its provisions cut across the key arguments and principles having discretion to manage their finances in ways articulated in the Government’s Green Paper of last that they consider fair and affordable. The Bill takes July, Shaping the Future of Care Together. For my own that discretion away from them in a material sense, part, I found that Green Paper to be an extremely and it does so, as we will debate later, in a very helpful analysis of the issues that should be uppermost unstructured and ill planned way. in our minds as we consider the long-term reform of social care provision. Two conclusions from the Green I have spoken up till now about the short term; the Paper were inescapable. The first was that, as a nation, longer term should concern us equally. What are the we cannot afford to deliver free personal care to all ingredients of a sustainable and fair system of social who need it and fund this out of general taxation. Any care provision over, let us say, the next 100 years? To attempt to do that will not prove sustainable over time my mind, they are these. We should aim for a personalised because of the demographic trends which are already service to enable people to buy the care that suits them in evidence. Therefore, as the paper says, the foundation best. One of the problems with the Bill, despite what of the new system lies in the partnership option—that the noble Baroness said earlier, is that it seems to cut is to say, in co-payment of one sort or another. right across the personalisation agenda, which, up to now, the Government have done rather well at. We The Government are holding fast, as far as I know, need consistent national standards for the assessment to the conclusions of that Green Paper, but they are at of care needs. The Government are right about that, the same time bringing forward a Bill which is completely and I shall support them in their efforts to introduce at odds with it. The Bill is said to be a “bridge them. We need to help people stay in their homes for towards” a fully reformed social care system, but it is as long as they can—again, the Government are right hard to see that phrase as anything more than just about that. We need also to find a way of protecting words. If the Government had been a bit straighter people from having to sell their homes to pay for with us and said that the Bill was designed as a long-term care. I should like to think that there is no temporary stopgap in advance of long-term reform, disagreement between my own party and the Government that might have been a more credible and accurate on any of those four principles. description. I would have liked the Bill to point a clearer way towards the vision set out in the Green I do not want to exacerbate the public spat which Paper; in other words, to be a genuine bridge and a has been going on between members of my own party genuine building block to long-term reform. and Ministers in another place, but I would simply say 835 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 836 that we on this side part company with the Government placing a duty on the receiving authority to pick up over their apparent enthusiasm for schemes and ideas funding responsibility for a person’s free personal care which directly cut across one or more of the four for a transitional period without being required to principles that I have mentioned. For example, we do carry out a further assessment. Authorities would also not think that it is helpful to disempower people by be required to take other steps to ensure that the removing national benefits from them, such as attendance person enjoys full continuity of support. allowance, and disability living allowance. It is vital that those with critical-plus needs receive A national care service is a great idea, but if you seamless support if and when they move home to be mandate the service from the centre, and fund it near relatives. Delays as people wait for a new assessment centrally, it becomes inflexible and depersonalised. I could at worst be fatal and at best lead to grave health do not think that that is the way to go. Equally, a crises, putting disabled people and their families under compulsory state insurance scheme takes us in the enormous strain. wrong direction if we believe in empowering people The Government have pledged that the new free through choice. It also acts as a strong disincentive to care offer will be underpinned by a common assessment informal care, and I worry greatly about that. framework that will help to iron out inconsistencies If this Bill is to act as a bridge towards a flexible between authorities. Some say that this negates the and personalised system of social care, under the need for a portability clause in the Bill. However, a banner of a national care service, it needs to offer a common assessment framework will not guarantee greater range of possibilities than it does at present. It that the transition from one authority to another will needs to factor in the likelihood that people will wish be seamless. A receiving authority will be required to to provide for their critical care needs by means of reassess people who previously qualified for free personal voluntary insurance, and to allow for those who wish care, even though their needs will not have changed. I to engage in preventive health programmes, not simply will now hand over to the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, reablement. To incentivise the take-up of those to assist me. programmes, it needs to protect those who cannot afford to pay for personal care, while at the same time At this point, Baroness Wilkins continued the speech for giving due recognition to those who are prudent enough Baroness Campbell of Surbiton. to provide for part of the cost of their care from their It is widely accepted that local authorities fail in own resources. It also needs to recognise the value of their responsibilities to deliver seamless support to informal carers. In general, it needs to be more enabling disabled people who move between authorities. Continuity towards local authorities, and less prescriptive in terms of support is treated as an aspiration rather than as a of the structure of care services which they commission necessity. Many people I know are too terrified to and fund. It is against that background that I beg to move for fear of their support falling apart. If they do move Amendment 5, and I hope that the Minister will move, they face huge stress and hardship as they feel able to move at least a little way in my direction. struggle to renegotiate vital care and support. It is these fears and this hardship that my amendment Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: My Lords, I speak seeks to address, albeit only for those with the highest to Amendment 29, and I would like to thank the noble level of need. Earl, Lord Howe, for allowing me to pop in on his A major inspiration for the amendment, apart from amendment group. This is a much better time for me, a desire to address the harrowing experiences that and I thank him. disabled and older people face when moving home, is It is a privilege to have this opportunity to again of course the desire to see human rights standards raise the vital issue of social care portability. It is so brought to life. The UK Government recently ratified fundamental to the basic human rights of disabled the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with and older people. Many noble Lords will remember Disabilities, which spells out that disabled people must the very positive debate that we had when my amendment be able to choose where we live on an equal basis with on portability was debated during the passage of the others, and that we have the right to work and participate Health and Social Care Act. Strong cross-party support in our communities and to be free from exploitation, then led directly to the commitment in the recent violence and abuse. social care Green Paper to work towards a national The amendment has strong support from the Equality care system with portability at its heart. I promised and Human Rights Commission, which states that, noble Lords during that debate that I would give “current arrangements place an unfair and inequitable restriction portability my forensic attention. I am therefore very on freedom of movement and, at the very least, are very much glad that I am today able rather modestly to place an against the spirit of the right to private and family life as set out in amendment to make that commitment a reality for Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights … the 280,000 disabled and older people with the highest Commission supports enshrining portability within primary legislation. support needs who are anticipated to qualify for the Any other approach would continue to restrict this fundamental new free care provision. human right”. The effect of my amendment would be to ensure At this point, Baroness Campbell of Surbiton resumed. that the new free personal care provision is portable I am pleased to report that there are now local between local authority areas. People who qualify for authorities out there itching to implement portability. free personal care in one local authority area would be I recently had the pleasure of being on the interview entitled to move to another, in the certainty that they panel for the Department for Work and Pensions’ would continue to receive that free care without anxiety, Right to Control trailblazer sites. We were tasked with disruption or delay. The amendment achieves this by choosing eight local authorities to test the new Right 837 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 838

[BARONESS CAMPBELL OF SURBITON] funding. I am not happy about any of those things to Control over one’s support services. I was delighted because we are dealing with real individual cases which to see that some local authorities put in their consortium need to be assessed at ground level by people qualified bids, with one or two neighbouring councils, a right to and trained to do so. I hope the Minister will help me portability. They did this to streamline support services out of my confused state of mind. between local authority boundary lines. Some are now very keen to test portability where once they were not. Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I speak as I think that this enthusiasm for portability, which somebody who supports the Bill and I am therefore really was not there one or two years ago, and certainly somewhat confused by this group of amendments, was not in the criteria for the trailblazer bids, demonstrates although for a different reason from that given by the the beginning of a local authority culture sea change. noble Lord who has just spoken. I do not support the Let us capitalise on that now, for we do not want best amendment moved by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, but practice confined to only a noble few. I support Amendment 29, which provides for a transition My amendment is short, sweet and to the point. In between one local authority and another. I think that many ways, it is cost neutral—we are not asking for was part of the Government’s original intention when more funding. As time is short, I will just say two we discussed the Bill earlier. However, the rest of the things on the detail. The first is that disabled people amendments in the group, and particularly the Question are very aware that the exact level of direct payments whether Clause 1 should stand part, cut right across and type of services available will differ from one local the general intent of the Bill, and I certainly would not authority to another. We are realistic about that. We be in favour of that. As I said at Second Reading, I understand continuity of support to be about creating support the intention of the Bill; I support what the a support package that meets our needs, rather than Government want to do for these—mostly elderly—people replicating identical services. Secondly, I want to emphasise who are in the neediest group. This is, I understand, a that it will be particularly important to spell out in first step towards a much bigger national care programme, regulations and guidance the need for user and family which I think many of us in this House would fully involvement in all arrangements made to support someone support. In the mean time, I support the Bill and in picking up their new life in a new place. therefore cannot support the amendments in this group, If the Government accept the need for action today, except Amendment 29. it will send a strong message of hope to thousands of disabled and older people in England that they may Baroness Barker: My Lords, on my way here today move without fear of reprisals. It will also keep the I tried to work out how I would explain and justify to costs of this Bill down by ensuring scarce resources people what I had spent my afternoon doing. I set are not wasted on reassessing people whose needs have myself a goal: I would go through today’s proceedings not changed. We have a momentous opportunity to as though I were somebody who needed social care test this out and make a start on portability, and I urge services, a carer or someone in the unenviable position noble Lords to grasp it. I beg to move. of trying to organise this for a local social services department. I would try to get to the end with greater clarity and understanding about what the social care 4.30 pm system in this country is. However, I have to say that it Lord Eden of Winton: My Lords, I support the is not looking good at the moment. In fact, it is amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Howe. In becoming more confused. That is an inherent problem doing so, I confess to a certain amount of confusion in when people talk of such things as a national care my mind. There is a possibility of conflict here between, service without clarity about what it means. It is not on the one hand, the need for local authority autonomy about unanimity of provision; it is about agreeing and the ability that each local authority rightly has to about what care services are, who is entitled to them administer and control its own budget as far as possible, and how they are funded. and, on the other hand, the requirement—as put That leads me directly to both of these amendments forward so ably by the noble Baroness who has just and to ask a question. I can see the intent behind the spoken—that there should be portability in the benefits amendments of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and I have or awards of assistance received by the individual in a great degree of sympathy with it. We are, after all, the event of a move from one local authority area to talking about a system which has never met—and another. Will the Minister be able to clarify this for never will meet—all the social care needs of the country, me? I am very much in favour of both but I do not and about trying to find an equitable way of ensuring quite see how we can have both. that such resources as we have are best applied to The operative word that seems to be missing throughout people who have needs. My question for the noble much of our deliberations is “flexibility”. There must Earl, Lord Howe, is: who would set the preferential be flexibility in identifying the needs of the individual, rates for services? When we talk about care services, in allowing for that individual to move from one area by and large we talk about people carrying out care to another and for the local authority to manage its tasks for individuals. The cost of employing people own financial affairs. These are the issues that need to does not vary much, whether they are in the private be ironed out because if we ultimately go the full sector or the public sector, or whether they are in course and achieve in this country what the Government different areas of the country. It might vary ever so are evidently aiming for—the establishment of a national slightly. What is the rate for a care attendant in one care service—that predicates a degree of centralisation, area of the country? It may differ, but only very of central control, of central direction and of central slightly, in another. I ask the noble Earl, Lord Howe, 839 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 840 how this would work in practice. Would it be up to of those people who will qualify for this care and local authorities to set different rates for different how many of them there will be. That would help us a services, as they deemed them to be needed in that great deal. area? That would be interesting. I draw the attention of the noble Baroness, Lady Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, not Campbell, to the issue of portability. She said that we surprisingly, many of us had anticipated that as we are not asking for more money. Care, in the terms of probed into the details of the Bill we would find the Bill, applies not just to people providing care for ourselves in a bit of a quagmire. It is quite a small Bill others but to adaptations. The capital expenditure of and quite a small area of quagmire, but my impression adapting somebody’s home might well be doubled if is that the depth is considerable and one gets out of they moved. Both the noble Baronesses, Lady Campbell one’s depth very quickly. and Lady Wilkins, said, in relation to this amendment However, I want to support Amendment 29 put and Amendments 2 and 4, that personalisation and forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of self-directed support now has a body of evidence Surbiton. I supported the principle of this at Second behind it that proves that it is cost-neutral and cost- Reading and I have seen no reason to change my effective. I wonder whether they could both point me mind. Here, there is at least one bit of hard ground on to that, as I have not yet seen evidence as strong which we can walk where there could be a significant as that. The IBSEN report on the pilots did not go benefit from legislation that we might advance this that far. afternoon. The benefit would be in three contexts. One Given that cost is at the absolute heart of this is the individual. By and large, people who need substantial debate, I should very much appreciate seeing the evidence care packages do not move for frivolous reasons. If behind both those statements. That will help noble they are moving from one authority to another, there Lords when we come down to doing what we ultimately will probably be a good reason, normally to do with all have to do—to work out what we believe to be the folks who are relatives and potentially informal carers. best use of finite resources for the best benefit of the The benefit there is clear and significant. most people. Noble Lords who listened to the “Today” 4.45 pm programme with as much attention as I did this morning will know that my colleagues and I have concluded However, there will also be a benefit to the local that this Bill does not represent that. We would use the authorities involved. If someone with substantial care resources in other ways that we think would be to the needs comes into a new area and has to be reassessed greater benefit of the greater number of people. In completely, that will involve significant time and the that context, I believe that these are fair questions and cost of their assessment, including professional time. I would appreciate some answers. One can be fairly sure that if significant capital costs are involved—which may well be the case, and that is a legitimate point to query—the move will, by and large, Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister not be for frivolous reasons and there will not be a can help us, or at least help me. I refer to the proposals large number of people to whom this applies. They made by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, and the would not be moving if the capital costs were likely to number of people who might move from one local be great, because the care needs would be equally authority to another, as there is a tendency for people to great. The move would be for good reason. do in their old age, or relative old age, or when they Thirdly—this point has been made—some of us become disabled. Quite a lot do so, either from a believe that one of the more important features of the high-cost residential area to a lower-cost one or nearer Bill is that it moves towards a national care service, to relatives and things of that kind. Therefore, there is involving a degree of equity between different postcode bound to be a certain number of people washing areas and local authorities. That would be one way of backwards and forwards across local authority areas. establishing equity in a very specific way. Costs borne We can only guess at those numbers but it would by a new authority are running costs—I accept not help us if we had at least an idea of what was in the capital costs—lost by another authority. Surely it would minds of Ministers as to the cost per individual involved not be beyond our powers of intelligence to devise a in this scheme. How many people do the Government way of transferring money if the costs were significant think will benefit? The Government’s estimate of the and substantial. I support the amendment. cost of the whole thing is that it will be less than £650 million. I must confess that my reaction to that is Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I wish to speak to “Come on, pull the other one”. If the Government are Amendment 29 in the name of the noble Baroness, going to stick to £650 million, how many people will Lady Campbell. It is right that people should have be involved? That will give us an idea of how many of portable rights, but a valid point was made by the those people might be transients washing backwards noble Baroness, Lady Barker, about capital costs. When and forwards across the boundaries. someone dies, it is deplorable if all the wonderful Is there a cap? The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, appliances that have been put into a property are added the cost of changes to homes to make them wasted. A neighbour had a stairlift for only two or possible for people to live in. It might not be just the three months. When she died, the executors were cost of a stairlift; it might be a substantial lift at a cost advised by the selling agents for her property, “Take of £15,000 or £20,000. The cost of a bathroom being out everything that could possibly look as if someone adjusted can be £2,000 or £3,000. That is apart from disabled lived here if you want to get the best price”. the recurring costs. We have to have a better idea of The executors tried to get rid of the lift. No council or what the Government think will be the cost per head anyone else would take it or reuse it anywhere else. In 841 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 842

[BARONESS GARDNER OF PARKES] country. So we are not just talking about the elderly the end, the executors managed to sell the lift back to and elderly disabled. We are also talking about young the providers for about a third, or even a quarter, of people and their rights to fulfil their potential. what it had cost to install only a matter of months This amendment seeks to reduce the impact of previously. disruption by putting in place transitional arrangements It is important that if a property is adapted for so that an individual can retain their entitlement to special needs, if at all possible—and it should certainly free personal care until a new community care assessment be possible regarding social housing—that property can be undertaken by the receiving authority. I think should be passed on to someone else with special that that addresses the point made by the noble Baroness, needs. Then the adaptations would not need to be so Lady Masham. great and the loss to the council that had made the I am grateful to the noble Baroness for identifying adaptations would not be so great. this issue, and I can confirm to her today that we As regards portability, apart from anything else, it intend as a result of her representations to include would be of benefit to the receiving local authority if provisions to effect this transitional protection in it had warning that someone who rapidly needed regulations. The reason that we can do that, of course, special care was coming. It would certainly reduce the is that we are seeking in the Bill and its regulations to need for reassessment. That is an important point. make the assessments more standardised. So it is in keeping with the Bill and the direction of travel in Baroness Masham of Ilton: I have a query on terms of the national care service. Amendment 29. If a person moves from one authority This will mean that, in addition to being able to put to another, it might be because their condition has into place emergency care services under Section 47(5) deteriorated or because they have become older or of the National Health Service and Community Care more disabled and might need more help or reassessment. Act 1990 as at present, the personal care element must Therefore there needs to be flexibility. Does the Minister continue to be free until such time as the community agree with that? care assessment is commissioned. So in bringing forward these regulations, we want to remove the requirement Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: Before Report, we to amend the Bill. I therefore request that the noble should certainly look at the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, withdraw the amendment. Baroness, Lady Barker. It is my understanding that if However, I undertake to continue discussing the you have a significant adaptation to your house, you regulations with her and the organisations that support are not, as part of the criteria, allowed to move or this activity. resell the house within five years. Such issues should I hope that that also answers the points made by the be looked into. noble Lord, Lord Eden, because the key is to allow an assessment to take place. It recognises that an assessment should take place eventually, and that will allow that Baroness Thornton: My Lords, for the ease of the assessment to take place in the new location. I therefore debate, it might be simpler first to deal with hope that that answers the point about how we maintain Amendment 29 and then to move on to the broader the integrity and independence of local services at the themes that the noble Lord raised in his introduction same time. and other noble Lords raised in the debate. Noble Lords will know that we are very much aware of the I now turn to the other amendments in this group: issues around greater portability of care, and it is Amendments 5, 6, 14, 16, 27 and 40, in the names of something that will be addressed in more detail both the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, in the review by the Law Commission into social care Lady Morris of Bolton. I have a very long speaking law and in the White Paper. note about local government finance, but since nobody The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, raised the has actually asked me about local government finance, very important point about consistency of care and I do not intend to inflict that on the Committee unless the difficulties faced by those who move between somebody asks me for it at a later date. different local authorities’ areas. This is an issue that I would, however, like to reflect on the issue raised we have discussed across the Dispatch Box and outside by the noble Earl, that we regard the Bill as a stepping the Chamber for the past couple of years. I commend stone to the national care service and, indeed, to the her persistence in her championship of this very important White Paper. I do not know whether he used the word matter. We debated this during passage of the Health “transition” or a similar word, but we are not far apart and Social Care Act, and I explained at that time that on the direction of travel or on the fact that the Bill’s we certainly had a lot of sympathy and understanding proposals will help us to achieve what we want to do in about it. We do recognise the potential for disruption creating a national care service. At the conference last to patterns of care, which can be the reality for an Friday—at which other parties were present though individual who moves from one authority to another. the noble Earl’s party was not—my right honourable We speculated about why people might do that, and friend Andy Burnham expressed similar sentiments to the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, did so as well. those reflected in the remarks that the noble Earl One thing that has not been mentioned—although made about what we are looking for and the consensus I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, would that we are seeking. mention it—is that this is also about, for example, My right honourable friend said that the current young disabled people who go to university or who system is unsustainable and unfair and that we wish to want to find a new job in a different part of the move to a system that includes preventive services and 843 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 844 provides the right support to enable people to stay I turn to the specific amendments. They seek to give independent for as long as possible. A national assessment powers to the Secretary of State to require local authorities should be established whereby care needs are assessed to charge for personal care at a set rate. I accept that and paid for in the same way across the country. the noble Earl is testing whether that would be a Services should work together smoothly and information preferred system. This would mean that a centrally set and advice should be available to enable the care figure would be decided upon and an amount of system to be easily understood and easy to navigate. personal care would not be provided free of charge, Personalised care and support should be integrated but rather would be charged at a prescribed or preferential and based on people’s circumstances and need and rate. Any personal care requirements beyond this set there should be fair funding. Money will be spent figure would then be free of charge. Clearly, this wisely and everyone will get some help to meet the proposed amendment is not in line with the purpose of high cost of their care needs. the Bill. The Bill aims to provide free personal care at The Bill is a step towards setting up a national care home to those with the highest needs, providing freedom service and is evidence of the Government’s commitment from worry that they will be unable to meet the costs to an area which has been neglected for far too long. It of their vital personal care. Should local authorities be is a shame that the noble Earl’s party chose to walk able to charge for elements of care at a prescribed rate, away from the discussions but I hope that they will it would continue, we believe, to add worry and distress walk back into them in the next parliamentary Session to those who have the highest levels of personal care. and that we can solve these difficult and important They would be in fear of a bill landing at the door, as issues in the way that many organisations are calling is indeed the case in the current system. on us to do; that is, together as a nation. There is no We are content with our estimates for the funding question but that there are still huge challenges in the of this policy.We therefore believe that these amendments care and support system. The Green Paper sought are unnecessary and would resist Amendments 5, 6, people’s views on how we resolve those challenges and 14, 16 and 27. how we create a sustainable system in the long term. Amendment 40 would broaden the regulation-making The White Paper will develop those proposals and will power under Section 15(5)(a) so as to expressly say be available soon. that not only would regulations make different provision The noble Earl asked about the differences between for different prescriptions of qualifying services; they three and four ADLs and how that would work. We could also make a different provision for different recognise that there will be challenges in delivering circumstances. We do not believe that this amendment care to people with the highest needs and that some adds anything of substance, because Section 15 already people may be on the wrong side of that divide. We are gives the Secretary of State power to make a different also very mindful of the overall costs of this scheme. provision for different qualifying services. Coupled However, this is an interim measure before we introduce with other existing powers to prescribe circumstances our proposals for long-term reform of the care and in which services would be provided free, we therefore support system. This measure is designed to help already have the power to prescribe different circumstances those with the highest need. Our wider proposals on in which different qualifying services are to be provided the transformation of social care will encourage investment free. I therefore ask the noble Earl and the noble in prevention, early intervention and supporting Baroness not to press these amendments. individuals. The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said that there Lord Tebbit: The Minister must have lost the piece was no evidence that personal budgets are cheaper. of paper, which I am sure she has been handed by her The IBSEN report showed that personalised services officials, giving the estimates that the Government were no more costly than commissioned services, though have made of the costs involved and how much people user satisfaction was increased, and the evidence from will be able to draw under this. I am sure that the councils introducing personal budgets is no less strong. officials have passed a piece of paper to her. Would she be kind enough to give us the figures, if she does not Baroness Barker: Unfortunately, that short statement have them in her head? does not encapsulate a very big, detailed report, which came out with some extremely tentative conclusions. Baroness Thornton: I can give the noble Lord the For example, the costing for personalisation that the overall costs of this scheme, which, as we are well noble Baroness cited was predicated on the fact that aware, are £670 million. I can also tell him how that there would be no significant increases in the cost of will be allocated across local authorities. It will then be employing care staff. It is important that we are absolutely down to local authorities to decide the best way—within clear about the costs of what we are talking about and the framework of the assessment, the tool that I do not make sweeping assumptions. If we are not referred to earlier—for that to be distributed and what accurate about costing, we will head off into people would get under, for example, the reablement unsustainability in a different fashion. That would be scheme. Another noble Lord referred to adaptations, equally as wrong as the faults in the Bill to which a which we will be discussing in greater detail later. I number of noble Lords have already pointed. think that that noble Lord referred to the cost of a lift. Of course that would have to be offset against the 5pm potential cost of someone being in a care home for Baroness Thornton: I take the noble Baroness’s many years. So it is not possible for me to say £10,000, point and recognise that she is much more expert on £1,000 or £500, because it would depend on the individual that issue, through her work and experience, than circumstances of that person. It may indeed be cost- I am. effective to spend thousands of pounds on installing a 845 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 846

[BARONESS THORNTON] have a chance to make real progress. I will seek an stair lift in a home because it would mean that that early opportunity to meet her and her officials to person could stay at home and be independent and discuss the government proposal on the regulation, would not need to go into a care home, which may and look forward to achieving a significant degree of cost a great deal more. continuity of care for those with critical-plus needs I did not have a piece of paper and I did not expect through good, firm regulation. one which would tell me what the individual grant or availability would be for a person, because it would depend on the assessment for that person. Earl Howe: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, and to the Lord Tebbit: I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Minister for her reply. I am glad that she did not give and understand some of her difficulties; but perhaps us the benefit of a short talk on local government she could tell us how many people the Government finance: no doubt we will come to those matters later estimate will benefit from this £650 million, or whatever when we talk about the affordability of the Bill. it is? I agree with her that there is only one way forward when it comes to reform of long-term care, and that is Baroness Thornton: Our estimate is that 400,000 cross-party consensus. By definition, we should look people will benefit. The estimate is not that 400,000 at a long-term solution that will hold good for many people will have all their care costs met: that figure is decades to come. likely to be between 100,000 and 130,000 people. However, I share her wish that the parties will come together within the envelope of support in terms of reablement and find a common way forward. It was partly for that and the support that people could receive, our estimate, reason that I wanted to see this Bill as a genuine bridge which has not been significantly challenged, is that towards long-term reform, because I fear that to describe 400,000 people would benefit from the programme. it as a bridge at present is an inaccurate use of words. The problem I have is that it is too narrow in its scope Baroness Gardner of Parkes: Perhaps the Minister and too prescriptive. It might be worth my quoting to could clarify that. Am I correct in thinking that the the noble Baroness a short extract from page 16 of the number of people who will newly benefit from this—those Government’s Green Paper. It states: who are presently paying their own expenses—will be “Because care and support costs can be so high, we think that about 130,000 and not 460,000? the Government should provide some support to everyone who has to pay them. We therefore propose that, in the new National Baroness Thornton: We have never said that 460,000 Care Service, everyone who qualifies for care and support from people will receive all their care costs. We estimate that the state should get some help with paying for it”. the number of people who would receive the total care That is a much more tenable and intellectually package of all their costs being met would be somewhere respectable approach than the one which the Bill invites between 100,000 and 130,000. I will clarify that number, us to take. because I cannot find it in my notes. The total number The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, asked me about of people who would benefit from this in different the kind of preferential system that I was trying to ways would be 400,000. advocate. Maybe she and other noble Lords were not here to hear me talk through that idea. You can Lord Tebbit: My Lords, perhaps I might check with achieve it in several ways with varying degrees of other noble Lords whether I have the decimal point in central prescription and local autonomy.My amendment the right place. We are talking about roughly half a would not rule out any particular solution. For example, million people—400,000, but we will call it half a you could have a graduated scale describing a varying million—sharing the benefit of about £650 million. acuity of need, defined centrally, as the foundation for That would appear to work out at £1,300 per person. a graduated charging system. That could be moderated Have I got the decimal point in the wrong place? at a local level by consideration of people’s financial Baroness Thornton: The noble Lord has not got the means and the affordability of certain charging bands. decimal point in the wrong place. The figures work. I Revised fair access to care services guidelines could am not sure what other information the noble Lord well act as the basis for a more sophisticated charging wants. I am happy to write to him with much more structure, but you would leave it to local authorities to information. Four hundred thousand people will benefit; decide exactly how the available cake should be cut. 130,000 will receive re-enablement; 110,000 will receive Free care for those in critical need would not be free care for the first time; and 170,000 will receive precluded under my amendment. It could still be care entirely or partially free, based on a means test, prescribed in regulations. However, you would at the and will continue to do so. The 280,000 figure plus the very least avoid the cliff edge which the Bill will create 130,000 figure add up to 400,000. in terms of its perceived unfairness towards those whose care needs are deemed to fall very slightly short Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: Before the noble of the level eligible for free personal care at home. Earl, Lord Howe, responds, I thank the Minister for That, in a nutshell, was where I was coming from. her extremely constructive response to my amendment. However, I have no fixed views on how one would There is clearly a firm commitment on her part to structure this. It is for discussion. breathe some life into the principle of portability that That is as far as we can go at this stage. I am I have pursued for a number of years. I am not yet grateful for the noble Baroness’s comments, upon entirely sure whether the solution that she proposes which I will reflect. I beg leave to withdraw the would achieve all that my amendment would, but we amendment. 847 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 848

Amendment 5 withdrawn. full-time care, the doctor popping in as often as needed and the complete re-equipment of the home into a Amendment 6 not moved. sort of mini nursing home, it could be done, but it would be unaffordably expensive. It is simply not The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness economic to provide one-to-one care 24 hours a day to Pitkeathley): If Amendment 7 is agreed to, I cannot someone in that situation, but it could be done. call Amendment 8 for reasons of pre-emption. Equally, it is possible for people with rather low care needs to go into residential care. Some individuals Amendment 7 prefer residential care, odd though that seems to most Moved by Lord Lipsey people. It is not a question of the need that determines 7: Clause 1, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (2) this; rather, it is a question of what is best when reviewing both the expert assessment and the wish of Lord Lipsey: First, I apologise on behalf of the the person themselves about where they want to be noble Lord, Lord Warner, whose name is first appended cared for. I put particular emphasis on the latter half to this amendment. An ocean separates him from us at of that remark: the view of the person themselves is the moment, but he will be back to participate at terribly important. What we are doing in this Bill as Report stage. Actually, at 12 o’clock our time, an drafted is to build up a terrible conflict. The person is ocean also separated me from this House. So if I am a almost bound to want to be cared for in their own little less coherent than I would otherwise be, I hope I home. Not only is it perhaps a nicer place to be, but can crave your Lordships’ indulgence. everything in the home is free. The local authority, on the other hand, has every incentive to put the person 5.15 pm into a home because then they will have to pay for Noble Lords will realise that this amendment goes their own care. If they are in their own home, the local to the heart of the injustice that is built into the Bill. It authority has to pay for the care. I am sure that we will is an injustice that was well described by the noble come back to this at some length later in the day. Lord, Lord Turnbull, in the debate on Second Reading. When the Bill takes effect, a very typical case of an It is perfectly evident to anyone looking at the older person will run like this. The person needs a bit figures with an ounce of objectivity that the Government’s of help at home, but they have money of their own so assessment of the cost of this policy to local authorities they do not get any help. More and more, councils are is a grotesquely unrealistic underestimate. It makes no restricting the little bit of help that would enable them allowance for what will certainly happen, which is that to stay at home. Suddenly the person reaches a threshold many people who at present are paying for their own where they fail four activities of daily living—you have care at home or not getting any care will suddenly to be in pretty poor shape to fail four ADLs—whereupon emerge as claimants. Anyway, we need not speculate the Government will pay for the whole of their care. because we know what has happened in Scotland. The person can continue to live at home like that for a There the cost of care in someone’s own home has while, but there comes a day when they are not able to doubled in just five years, leaving the original cost do so in any sensible way and they have to go into a estimates in tatters, as will be the estimates of this home. On that day, not only does the person lose their Government. That is why this inequity in the treatment home, not only are they suffering from extreme physical of people in their own homes and in homes cannot be disability and often dementia, but they also have to allowed to persist. I am not arguing that care should pay in full. be free everywhere—far from it. I say that the Government should be making whatever contribution is felt to be This is an injustice that it is impossible to defend affordable and appropriate whatever the setting in and it is why, when the Government published their which people are receiving care. excellent Green Paper on the subject, it produced the words just used by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, to the I want to add a second leg to the argument, which is effect that whatever the setting in which someone gets as follows. We have not begun to conceive of the their care, perhaps the state should meet part of the process that is going to be let loose by this piece of cost; that is, part of the cost if you need care at home legislation. We heard about the Local Government and part of the cost if you are in a home and need Ombudsman and the Health Service Ombudsman care. That is not what is being proposed in the Bill. already being swamped by appeals as to who should The proposal is that you get your care paid for in one pay, but when this piece of legislation comes in with setting only—at home. this built-in, grotesque unfairness, where will people In response to an earlier debate which touched on go? Are they going to say, “Oh, I am sure this local this subject, the Minister said that the kind of care you authority officer who has come to see us is right—mum get should depend on your care needs. That sounds should go into a home and run down our inheritance”? very plausible. I can imagine the person writing the Of course they are not. Today, we have personal injury words for the brief perhaps even believing them as lawyers stamping the land, offering their services to they did so. But of course that is largely a nonsense people who get hurt in accidents. I see a lot of their because for the great majority of people it would be adverts because they are always on during the horseracing possible to be cared for in their own home until they in the afternoon, where people are trying to look at die if sufficient resource was applied. It would be ways to pay their gambling debts. Just as we get those possible if they had full-time care from trained nurses personal injury adverts, up and down the country working eight-hour shifts. I once saw a woman aged firms of solicitors will be set up seeking judicial review 101 receiving such care in Northern Ireland. With of every case that comes before them. 849 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 850

[LORD LIPSEY] one introduces financial incentives of this kind, it is The case of extra care homes—the second of the remarkable how the flow of patients in and out of amendments in this group I have tabled—is an example institutions changes. of the kind of thing that will happen. Systems like this I remind noble Lords of the major expansion of get gamed; we know this. People will start gaming the nursing homes and care homes which came about in system to try to turn whatever accommodation they the 1980s, the direct result of the funding of care are in into something that can be described as their places through individual, generous grants via social own home. For example, care homes might start selling welfare budgets, which then created thousands of new the rooms in which residents live to the individual residential places. One-third of business expansion within them, so that the rest of the care can be free. It scheme grants—the investment miracle of the Thatcher is far from clear that extra care homes will be properly years—were invested in the care home sector. Care eligible—it depends on the nature of the care coming homes were, of course, basically property investments; in. I read the Commons debate on this matter, which but property companies were at first excluded from went on for some time. The answer given by the the BES initiative and so the care home sector was an Minister—Mr Phil Hope, a man for whom I have some attractive alternative as long as revenue was guaranteed admiration—would not convince anybody that the by the Government. I used to watch the Laing and Government are on top of this problem. The definitional Buisson figures of the growth in residential care places changes and the ranks of lawyers looking to cash in on with utter amazement. For a time I acted as an investment human misery as a result of these provisions will be adviser to ‘3i’ because the business investment companies absolutely enormous. were so worried about how much BES money was As so often, I finish in the same place as the noble channelled through these schemes into care homes. Earl, Lord Howe. We need a consensus on this matter; They were very worried about the quality of what they I believe this would include a contribution from the were investing in—rightly so, as it turned out. It was a state to care, whether it is in a care home or care at classic case of the Government having a genuinely home. We need a consensus above all, but this Bill philanthropic policy hijacked for the benefit of the cannot provide a consensus. That is why, in the small business community to the growing frustration amendments that will be tabled this afternoon and in and disbelief of the Treasury. voting at subsequent stages, we shall have to make provisions to ensure that the Bill cannot go through It did not last long, of course. In both the USA, before there has been a general election, which may where expansion was similarly funded by Medicaid, well lead to a situation where the support of a single and in the UK our Treasuries soon woke up to the party—perhaps I should say a single Prime Minister—is escalating unaffordability, but here, in 2010, we have not enough to determine what the right state of the witnessed a 15-year decline of the care home sector, law in our land should be. although with some suggestion that sheer demographic pressures are now reversing that trend again. Even small shifts in incentives can have major impacts. Baroness Murphy: My Lords, I have added my There has been no modelling of the impact of this Bill name to Amendments 7 and 10, and I support the on other revenue streams in spite of the theoretical words of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey. In these impact of the ADL deficits on the demand for care amendments, we want to explore the boundaries that and the need for modelling. are proposed, the knock-on effects on other funding systems, and particularly the rationale for providing I was predicting in one direction and the noble care funds only for those living at home. This was Lord, Lord Turnbull, at Second Reading, cited the criticised widely at Second Reading, and I want to care needs of his mother-in-law, pointing out that point out that three very different predictions were after a classic hip fracture and hospital stay, at the made then about the impact this would have on the very moment her care needs went up from perhaps use and costs of this Bill. 30 hours a week to 168 hours a week, her eligibility for In my speech at Second Reading I predicted that financial support went down. That cannot make sense. financial incentives to stay put would deter people Crucially, this fails the test set out by the Minister in from going into residential care at the point at which it her exposition of the Bill when she said that those with was clinically and socially desirable. There have been the highest needs must receive the greatest help. It was numerous times when I, as a clinician, have seen that injustice more than the issue of costs to which the spouses or daughters absolutely exhausted and on the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, objected. A financial obstacle brink of a breakdown caring for an elderly person is being erected to prevent decisions being taken which with dementia. By the way, it is usually not the activities are in the best interests of the elderly person. of daily living which are the most stressful problem; The noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, and I were predicting wandering, emotional and behavioural difficulties and in one direction but the noble Earl, Lord Howe, made failures of recognition are far more likely to be the the crucial point that there is an intermediary body straws that break the camel’s back. At some point, it which is going to be the vehicle for this new funding—the almost feels as if you want to insist for the sake of the local authority. If the total cost of delivering the Bill carer’s health that a residential home place is found. If should exceed the budget, local authorities will have to there are real financial incentives to maintaining a find whatever extra money is required. In other words, person at home, these decisions will be even more they are being landed with an open-ended commitment, difficult. not fully funded as expressed in the famous “new Keeping people at home is an explicit aim of the burdens doctrine”. The noble Earl pointed out how Bill—a laudable one in many cases—but whenever predictable would be the response of local authorities. 851 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 852

He suggested that there would be a stampede of older people with their own homes, however much applications for free personal care and, when the they needed personal care and support. I applaud money available is used up, local authorities will do them for it. their utmost to avoid having to take more people on to But while the philosophy of care may be different, the books, and we will find pressure being placed on extra care housing in reality provides identical personal the elderly to move into residential care instead of care and nursing services. There are at present only staying at home. It will prove harder for people to pass 25,000 or so extra care housing places, whereas there the test of eligibility. are 500,000 care home places. So maybe the Minister Alternatively, and perhaps additionally, in order to is not too worried about the outright favouring of the fulfil their obligations to those in critical need, councils minority who find one of these schemes available in will be forced to remove social care funding from the area as an alternative to a care home. Nevertheless, those who are in lower categories of need. To the does the Minister agree that, as soon as legislation of extent that this happens, it may drive some people out this kind is introduced, large numbers of care-service of their homes and into residential care, thereby serving providers that currently make provision by way of a to dilute the main benefits of the Bill, which is supposed single contract with people—one that provides to enable more people to avoid or delay entering accommodation and care together—will suddenly find residential care. I further predict that, just as used to it desirable to provide different separate contracts for happen, very dependent old people will end up in accommodation and care services? In just this manner, acute hospital beds and acute psychiatric units. I hate I and my colleagues in Lewisham managed to close the phrase “bed blocking”—which means a very frail, long-stay beds for people with dementia in Bexley and needy, older person whose health and social care needs Cane Hill hospitals and provide tenanted accommodation are being denied to them—but that is what we will see. in conjunction with South London Family Housing So we have four unpredictable scenarios which have Association—now part of the Horizon Housing not been explored and I would like the Minister to Group—as similar to a specialist care home as to be explain what work is going on to clarify which of these indistinguishable, but all our residents had personal scenarios is likely. tenancies. In other words, they were indistinguishable from a residential care home. Is it not peculiar that if 5.30 pm people are in extra care housing and they have two contracts—one for care and one for accommodation— Amendment 10 follows up the point made in they are eligible for free personal care that pays their Committee in the Commons by Andrew Lansley, who care needs, but if identical care is provided under one wanted to be sure that extra care accommodation contract it will be charged for. I cannot see how this would be regarded as a person’s home and not residential flaw in the legislation can be reconciled. We could end care for the purposes of this Bill. People who live in up with a distortion in the care market with large extra care housing have their own self-contained homes, numbers of care providers recreating their services so their own front doors, and a legal right to occupy the as to distinguish between accommodation and care. property. Extra care housing is also known as very The Government, whether intentionally or not, are sheltered housing, assisted living, or simply “housing creating a potential loophole for people who are currently with care”. It comes in many built forms—blocks of in long-term residential care who would not be regarded flats, bungalow estates and retirement villages. But it as being in extra care housing. They will inevitably can, and does, sometimes provide an alternative to a restructure their arrangements at the point at which care home, and that is the nub of the problem. In they enter care in order to make themselves eligible for addition to the communal facilities often found in free personal care. The Bill does nothing to prevent ordinary sheltered housing, domestic support and personal this from happening. That seems to be an obvious flaw care are also available, provided by on-site staff. Properties in the legislation—unless this is the intent, but I doubt can be rented, owned, or part owned and part rented. it. Personally, I have always been an advocate of The Government say that people who live in sheltered separating housing and support costs but this is not accommodation or extra care housing are not to be the policy intention and I fear that we are going to end excluded on the grounds that: up with a great confusion. “The accommodation and care provided in such accommodation are not provided together but under separate arrangements made by the individual”. Baroness Barker: I wish to speak to my Amendment 13 The problem is that the increasing numbers of these in this group. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, talked types of schemes—which I was involved in developing about the criteria for social care and their tendency to myself when there was lots of Housing Corporation lead to gaming. My response to that is: whatever money around—are now providing 24-hour care seven criteria exist for social care or NHS continuing care, days a week in exactly the same way that care homes there will always be somebody who endeavours to get do. That marvellous organisation, Methodist Homes round them for good or for ill. The noble Baroness, for the Aged, or MHA, has, for example, at Moor Lady Murphy, set out in considerable detail quite a Allerton resource centre in Leeds a 20-bed extra care number of government policies surrounding community scheme especially for people with dementia. It serves care. Every one of these policies has a direct effect on as a direct alternative to residential care. MHA established the care market in some way. My small and perhaps their housing association arm as a subsidiary of their seemingly innocuous amendment is about the distortion well known care homes charity in order to benefit that I think may happen and that is that the services from the split in funding and also, admirably, from a which local authorities currently provide for people wish to continue to provide even the most disabled with moderate to high needs—which enable many 853 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 854

[BARONESS BARKER] Earl Howe: My Lords, my understanding of the thousands of people and their carers to carry on—will amendment is the same as that of the noble Lord, go in order to meet the demands of this Bill. Over the Lord Lipsey. It is confusing because the Bill is presented weekend noble Lords might have read about what is to us in a rather piecemeal form and one has to fit the likely to happen in the Isle of Wight, where local jigsaw pieces together. The Government are saying to authorities will simply no longer be able to provide a us, I think, “Those living in residential care will not number of services which have been in place, including get their personal care free, but by residential care, we telecare and so on. don’t mean extra care”. I think that that is how it fits At Second Reading I talked about the fact that together. back in the days before the NHS and social care were Much has already been said very well by other funded to the extent that they have been through this noble Lords and I shall not take the time of the Government, the capacity of mangers mostly, but also Committee in repeating it. However, I return to the frontline staff, in social care and the NHS to bat older theme of gaming, which was raised by the noble Lord, people back and forth between them, in order to avoid Lord Lipsey, the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, and, having to pick up the costs of their medicines, adaptations in her own way—very ably—by the noble Baroness, or care, was considerable. That has not been the case Lady Barker. I share her view that precision in language for about the past 10 years, but when the NHS is and terminology is of the utmost importance in this looking down the back of the sofa for money and Bill. social care is ripping up the floorboards because it has I set aside whether the exclusion from the Bill of already looked down the back of the sofa, it will those living in residential care amounts to unfair happen again. Older people will find themselves being discrimination—we shall come that question later when pushed between one and the other. At that point, what we discuss the European Convention. What troubles the law says is of utmost importance. I point noble me is the word that the Government have chosen in Lords to the fact that the title of this clause is: “Free subsection (2). I should like to hear the Minister provision of personal care at home”. It is not free explain what will stop a care home operator who provision of care to people living at home. There is a currently provides residential care by way of a single world of difference to a social services department contract dividing himself into two or more legal entities that has no money between those two different phrases. such that the contract from one legal entity, which Does care at home mean only care in a person’s home relates to the residential accommodation, is separate or does it mean care to a person who lives in their from the contract from the other legal entity, which home? As the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, said, relates to the care services. In that situation, as the how do you define a home that is eligible under this noble Baroness rightly indicated, there would in law be Bill? That may seem like utter pedantry but on it rests two providers operating side by side, one the equivalent the fate of thousands of people. I want to draw to of a hotel, the other the equivalent of a domiciliary noble Lords’ attention the fact that there are thousands care service. In those circumstances, what will prevent of older people who are unable to remain living at the recipient of those services claiming eligibility for home because they and their carers use services in free personal care? their locality but not in their homes. We need to take into account the collateral damage 5.45 pm to services provided in the community to people who The Government’s answer, as I understand it, has have substantial, high-care needs that keep all the been that the potential loophole will in practice be older people in an area—and their carers—going. closed off by the Care Quality Commission and the They are at risk if we are not absolutely clear about registration system that will be put in place. I need the the definition. Does the Bill refer only to services in a Minister to explain to me what that answer means, person’s home, or services provided to them as they because I do not understand how the CQC will be in a live at home in order to keep them living at home? It position to influence the situation one way or the may be pedantry, but it is of the upmost importance in other. We may well end up with a market that is very these matters. distorted, with large numbers of care providers reconstituting their services in a different legal form Lord Best: I shall speak against Amendment 10, that distinguishes accommodation from care. As the which seeks not to apply the provision of free personal noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, said, that after all is care to people in extra-care accommodation. I have to what extra care amounts to. We have heard that someone declare my interest as chair of the Hanover Housing living in extra-care accommodation will be treated as Association, which is the largest provider of extra-care living in their own home for the purposes of this housing in the UK. Although the provision that those legislation. in extra care should receive their care free may present In practice, the effect is little or no different from an anomaly, to remove— care delivered in a residential setting. The legal dividing line which the Bill seeks to establish will in practice be Lord Lipsey: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord. unsustainable. The purpose of the amendment is precisely the reverse of what he said; that is, to make sure that personal Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I listened care is free in extra-care accommodation. to the noble Lord, Lord Best, and I too was pleased to be reassured. Extra-care housing is ideal for people. Lord Best: Then I withdraw my objection to the Every smart investor running a care home will of amendment. course go for that, because it will be a great bonus for 855 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 856 them. We should not create something that makes it There is, however, a real lesson from Scotland here, more attractive; we should aim at that standard of and I think that this relates to the point that the noble extra-care housing for as many people as possible. We Earl, Lord Howe, was making. Scotland does have a should not have this difference between accommodation divide between what you might call hotel costs, or in a residential home where people get all their care accommodation costs, and care costs. The hotel or paid for if they are in a certain category, and another accommodation costs for those in residences are still category where care would not be paid for. We are means-tested. The picture of freedom and free supply inviting such a situation with the Bill, because we are of cash for everything is not the case. These costs are covering those who should be able to pay their own means-tested. They have ways of dividing them off bills. I would love it if someone paid all my bills, but I from the actual costs of care, and in Scotland they would not consider myself entitled to it—I would make a contribution to the cost of care. So the danger think that I was not needy enough. to which he points—that such a division will be brought The money should be spent on those who have real into place here in a way which distorts the system; it need. I find it strange that we are so concerned to does not distort it in Scotland, it is deliberate—is real, bring in a law that will help only an additional 110,000 and there is an example of how to do it. people, according to the answer that I had from the Minister earlier in our debates. The points raised by Baroness Turner of Camden: I may be mistaken, but the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, about the damage my recollection is that a number of years ago, there that might be done to the services now available, were was a commission that made recommendations, and I sound. Local authorities are very concerned that instead think that my noble friend Lord Lipsey was a member of being able to continue the amount of help they are of that commission. The majority recommendation currently giving to the most needy, in terms of assistance was that nursing and personal care should be paid and finance, help will be so enlarged as to cover those for, but that accommodation and care would—as who could well afford to pay their own bills. We risk already indicated—be subject to means-testing and so doing away with services that are vital to those who on. We now have a situation in which care costs and cannot pay and who may find their services reduced. I nursing costs are regarded as one, and I would agree support the amendment. with that. When the commission first made its report, I was in Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, the favour of it; but the report was not fully accepted by noble Lords who have proposed Amendment 7 make a the Government, and so we had the distinction made very important point—that one of the great dangers between nursing and personal care. I always thought of the Bill is that it drives an even deeper wedge that that was not a very good division to make, because between so-called care at home and care in residential it very often came to virtually the same thing. In contexts. As the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, made Scotland it was not accepted, and I see from an article plain, all the efforts of those working in detail in this which recently appeared in the Times that the allegation field have been devoted to trying to break down a very that Scotland is not managing to meet that cost is said rigid distinction between being cared for at home and to be quite untrue, and that Scotland is in fact managing being cared for in a residential institution. They explored those costs quite well. If this is what is intended in this extra care in the community, the use of residential section of the Bill, I would certainly be in favour of homes for other purposes and a whole range of options, that, because I never believed that there should be a including the possibility of housing associations being split between nursing and personal care. I always involved in creating sheltered accommodation of an thought that they were the same care costs. If that is to even higher standard. The risk is in the Bill. I hope the be eliminated in this section of the Bill, then I would Minister can indicate how it will be dealt with. be all in favour of it. The point has also been well made that, however pure, kind and noble you are—and I have worked for Baroness Murphy: I would like to support what the years in the academic world, where the intellectually noble Baroness, Lady Turner, has just said about that pure apparently multiply—you soon learn how to element. I absolutely agree that it has always been an follow the money. The Bill will suggest ways of following absurdity that nursing and care costs, both of which the money, which is another great danger. People are are related to the way in which an individual is cared very inventive, often for the best of motives and reasons. for, should be separated. Any move away from those I get fed up speaking about Scotland, but I have to artificial and ridiculous distinctions is to be welcomed. say that the increase in expenditure on care at home in My anxiety about this clause is that we are unfortunately Scotland is not a mistake but a deliberate policy, imposing new definitions and new trenches down which because the Scottish Government have set out to meet people can fall, and new cliffs to fall over, making the wishes of people, which is, if possible, to remain in them ineligible. That adds to the difficulty. I agree with their own home and to reduce the costs. One of the the main thrust of the thoughts of the noble Baroness, ways in which they are doing that is by making it more Lady Turner. attractive to remain at home than to go into far more expensive residential and nursing-care accommodation. Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, this group of amendments That is the reason for the shift in cost, and you can see deals, in one form or another, with the Bill’s provision that the cost of residential care has pretty well stabilised. on what counts as care at home. However, each To do that is quite an achievement, but it is being done amendment addresses rather different aspects of the because they are finding cheaper and more appropriate provision. I shall therefore begin by making some ways of providing care. general points about this aspect of the Bill. 857 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 858

[LORD TUNNICLIFFE] to do so. We recognise that, by introducing this policy, First, it is important, and has been an aspiration of there may be perverse incentives for local authorities this Government for a number of years, to support to encourage people who would otherwise have funded people in their own homes. That is what people tell us their own care to move into residential care, thereby they want, and indeed it has been supported by the saving the cost of free personal care. However, that Audit Commission’s report Under Pressure, which was would be a completely short-sighted approach. Not published just last week. This report highlighted that only does it not deliver what the individual or the there is a growing trend towards care at home which family wants—a little extra help that would allow meets the needs of people who need care and is them to stay at home for longer—but we know that something to which local authorities should aspire. entering residential care prematurely can lead to We recognise that there are different residential settings, individuals running down their assets and then becoming however, and so it is important to have a debate on a charge on the local authority. Surely it is better for what is classed as a person’s home. We want to retain the person and the council to invest to deliver more the flexibility in our definition to maintain the intention cost-effective care at home and to support local citizens of the Bill while recognising that different settings or to fulfil their wishes to stay in their own homes for as models of care may emerge over the coming years— long as possible. something which we all know will need to happen to However, I also recognise that while it is important meet the needs of our growing ageing population. that this Bill supports people to stay in their own The intention that underlies the Bill is that people homes for as long as possible in order to live more with the highest care needs should be supported to live independent lives, this does not mean that every care at home. We have made the specific point in the Bill activity needed to support them happens inside their that it is important that those adults who are part of own home. Sadly, there may of course be situations an adult placement scheme, living in a family, do not where somebody is not able to leave their own home at miss out on this opportunity. It is therefore important all. For others, however, having support in the community to make it explicit that, for the purposes of the Bill, is beneficial and maximises their ability for independent such adults are to be considered as living at home. In living in their own home. The Bill supports that principle our opinion this is the only situation which is required and does not seek to prevent this; on the contrary, we to be excepted from the six-week restriction on free will develop guidance which reflects that as good provision of personal care in accommodation where practice. I will talk a little further about that when I care is provided as an integral part of that accommodation. discuss in detail the specific amendments in this group. In other situations it should be clear that people are Amendment 7, in the name of the noble Lords, either living in accommodation where care is provided Lord Lipsey and Lord Warner, the noble Earl, Lord as an integral part of that accommodation—a residential Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, is clearly care home—and are not eligible, or living at home and a wrecking amendment. It wrecks the fundamental may qualify for free personal care. essence of the Bill by removing subsection (2), which is the linchpin of the Bill. To accept this amendment Some people have sought to argue that a residential would prevent us being able to ensure that those in the care home could re-badge itself as extra-care housing highest need could receive free personal care at home and enable its residents to have their care free of for more than six weeks. This is clearly against the charge. This is not about residential care or re-badging. spirit of the Bill and should not be supported by We have always made it clear that it is about people anyone who supports the principles underlying this living in their own homes for longer. Residential care Bill. We therefore cannot accept this amendment and is not the same. In any case, as was debated in another urge opposition to it. place and made clear there, where providers seek to change the provision of their services, it is for the 6pm regulator, the Care Quality Commission, to ascertain The Bill is about specific help for a specific group of that they meet the relevant registration criteria. people: those in greatest need. I believe that my noble Others have argued that residential care is a cheaper friend said earlier that it would help 280,000 people, as option than helping people to live at home. However, well as the 130,000 who will be helped by reablement. the experience of many local authorities shows that It is about doing this now. It is the first step of a total appropriate interventions and support—the right housing, package. We have confidence in the estimates, and we adaptations and equipment, including telecare—can have gone through the figures with ADASS. help people to live at home at a lower cost than going The Bill is not the same as what is happening in into residential care. Indeed, as I said a little earlier, Scotland. The other place has agreed to the basic last week’s report by the Audit Commission, Under concept. This House has given the Bill a Second Pressure, made these points most effectively and forcefully. Reading, which enclosed the basic concept, and I do Local Authorities must invest in new models of care. It not intend to participate in or respond to a further is no longer acceptable for them to invest in the same Second Reading debate at this point. old models of care—home care and residential care—as Amendment 8 would require that regulations specified they have in the past. every setting that was not considered to be a person’s For some people, and at the right time, entry to home for the purpose of provision of personal care, residential care may well be the only option. We do and therefore every setting of accommodation where not want to close off this option. However, the majority the six-week restriction to provide free personal care of people say that they want to stay in their homes for would still apply.We consider that the proposed definition longer, and the provisions in the Bill will enable them as set out in the Bill accurately describes and excludes 859 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 860 a range of different settings that are not to be classed support activities needed to help the person must be as a person’s home. These exclusions are necessary carried out in the home itself. The noble Baroness because we wish to encourage and enable people to used the example of a person whose needs were best remain in their own homes where that is what they addressed through being bathed in a day centre because wish to do. it was not possible to make the necessary adaptations Were we to specify the specific different settings to their own bathroom at home. They should certainly that should be excluded, that could require numerous be offered that. changes to regulations as the nature of service provision We will ensure that this area is covered fully in the changes over time. That seems unnecessary and statutory guidance that we will be developing to provide undesirable. We are encouraging councils to look to support to local authorities. For that reason, I do not provide care in a wide range of settings to meet consider that this needs to be in the Bill. While I do people’s changing and longer-term needs. Where providers not accept the noble Baroness’s amendment and ask wish to be seen to change the provision of services to not to press it, I very much agree and commit to benefit from the provisions, it will be for the regulator, taking forward its principle. the Care Quality Commission, to ascertain that they The noble Earl, Lord Howe, as ever, made interesting meet the revised registration criteria. We are not willing points about the Bill. He was particularly concerned to accept this amendment, as the proposed definition about “gaming” and language. That is a fair point, but set out in the Bill is accurate. I therefore hope that the we believe that many of the issues will be resolved in noble Earl, Lord Howe, will withdraw his amendment. the development of regulations and guidance. With The Bill seeks to remove restrictions on existing regard to the issue of residential homes being re-badged, powers and will allow us to require people with the we have said that the Care Quality Commission will highest needs living at home to be provided with free create a definition that will stop that happening. We personal care indefinitely. Amendment 10 from the believe that the legal dividing lines will be practical, noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Lipsey, the noble although we cannot go further into why we believe Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, that. If it proves useful to elaborate on that in a letter, I seeks to make it clear in the Bill that personal care for will certainly send him one. people living in extra-care housing can potentially be The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, referred required to be provided free indefinitely. to the number of people who will be helped. As I said We believe that such an amendment is unnecessary. earlier, some 280,000 people will be helped with support As the Bill already provides in new subsection (4D), a at home and some 130,000 by reablement. person should be considered to be living at home as I hope that some of the comments that I have made long as they are not living in accommodation provided will meet the points made by the noble Lord, Lord under Part 3 of the National Assistance Act 1948, or Sutherland. The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, was in accommodation where personal care is provided perhaps giving us an insight into the broader picture together with that accommodation. That definition that will be revealed in the coming weeks when we of living at home would include a person living in publish the White Paper. extra-care accommodation as it would be neither Part 3 accommodation nor accommodation where personal Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, before the care was provided together with that accommodation. Minister finishes, I have one question. How is he going That is because in extra-care housing, care and to make inflexible local authorities flexible? accommodation are provided not together but under separate arrangements made by the individual. Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, this is almost the centre We would certainly seek to encourage people who of every debate that we have about how we deliver wish to stay and receive the care they need at home to services. An awful lot of us here have served in both consider extra-care housing, as well as other forms of national government and local authorities. There is a supported living such as sheltered housing, because perennial tension between, for example, local authorities they allow individuals to continue living independently. and the health service. At the end of the day, we must Because this setting of accommodation is already believe in good will. adequately covered by the provisions of the Bill, I There has been some reference to this being an area hope that the amendment will not be pressed. where we have to develop consensual politics. Many of The noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, brought out a us have the same common belief that services delivered series of predictions and potential downsides. We have locally are a good thing, but nevertheless there has to committed to review this legislation after 12 to 18 months be intrinsic equity between the delivery of those services. and in that review we will see whether those predictions There will be tensions between what we specify nationally turn out to be true, but we believe that the predictions and how that is interpreted, but one hopes that in this that we have made on cost and on numbers served are new world of consensus which I think even the noble sound and will be borne out by experience. Earl, Lord Howe, has promised us, we will be able to Amendment 13, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady solve those problems. Barker, raises an important point: these provisions should seek to ensure that those living in their own Baroness Murphy: My Lords, has there been any home are supported to do so for longer. However, it is specific financial modelling on our Amendment 7 important to reflect on the fact that this does not regarding the impact of the new funding systems on necessarily mean, as I believe the noble Baroness other service streams? We have heard a lot about the wishes to indicate with this amendment, that all the interrelationships between care funding modalities. 861 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Prisons: Early Release 862

Lord Tunnicliffe: I do not believe that there has “With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to been specific modelling. My understanding is that the make a Statement on the release of prisoners under fragility of the assumption you would have to make to the early release scheme known as end of custody do the modelling would make that modelling a not licence, or ECL. particularly valuable exercise. If that is an incomplete This scheme will be brought to an end on 12 March answer, though, I will write to the noble Baroness this year. All prisoners who are eligible for release on setting it out more completely. ECL on or before 12 March will be so released. Prisoners who have as of today been formally notified, Lord Lipsey: My Lords, anybody listening to these under form ECL3, of release dates under the scheme debates might find them becoming increasingly surrealistic. up to and including 9 April will also be released. No There is a debate going on in this Committee between prisoners will be released on ECL from and including people with real depth of knowledge of this area—I 10 April. include people like the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, with whom I do not see altogether eye to eye, and also In the last 13 years the prison population has the noble Baronesses, Lady Turner, Lady Murphy and increased dramatically. When I became Home Secretary Lady Barker—and Ministers, doing their best to inject in May 1997, it stood at 60,335. The most recent a show of conviction into reading out the notes prepared published figure was 83,820 on 19 February. Predicting for them by their civil servants, who are themselves the prison population and matching places to meet trying to inject a note of conviction into defending a demand has always been difficult and inevitably imprecise. policy that has been handed down to them by the I can certainly recall early release schemes on three Prime Minister and has no intellectual substance behind separate occasions—in 1984, 1987 and 1991—when it, other than what they have managed to cobble the Government of the day faced crises in handling together in the few months since he delivered his pressures upon the prison population. imprimatur. In June 2007, my predecessor as Justice Secretary, That came out particularly in the remarks made by my right honourable and noble friend Lord Falconer, the Minister, in saying that this is about getting local introduced ECL to manage temporary pressures upon authorities to invest in new models of care; it is unfair the prison estate and to guarantee that prison places to expect him to be a great expert on long-term care were available for all those sentenced to custody. The and it is always great to see him on the Front Bench. end of custody licence enabled prison governors, under Of course local authorities need to invest and to invest existing prison rules, to release on licence, up to 18 days heavily in new models of care, but the plain and simple before the end of their sentence, offenders who had fact of the matter is that they will not have the cash to been given a determinate prison sentence of four do so, because they are spending it all on free care for weeks to four years. The scheme specifically excluded the Prime Minister’s targeted electoral group. That is offenders convicted of serious violent crimes, sexual the reality of the situation. offences subject to registration requirements, those There is no point pursuing this argument further who had broken the terms of temporary release in the with the Government, save to say this. The Minister past and foreign national prisoners who would be said that he was not going to have a Second Reading subject to deportation at the end of their sentence. It debate because the House of Commons voted in favour was later amended to exclude anyone convicted of of this Bill. That is perfectly true, but since then, Nick terrorism-related offences. Clegg, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, has this ECL was explicitly introduced as a temporary measure. morning announced that they made a mistake in doing I have always said that we would end it as soon as we so. He has thought it through and—I give him great could. I have always recognised that, while necessary credit for this—he has changed his mind and is now as a temporary measure, it was inherently unsatisfactory against the Bill. I hope that he is not the only one. In and potentially damaging to public confidence in justice— view of these debates, I hope that before we get to confidence which is otherwise high, particularly in the Third Reading the Government themselves may think light of falling crime. I have therefore told the House again about this Bill and see if we cannot yet make this on a number of occasions that I would bring it to an a stepping stone on which a consensus reform could end as soon as it was safe to do so. My right honourable be built. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. friend the Prime Minister has underlined this, for Amendment 7 withdrawn. example on 7 May 2008, when he said at Prime Minister’s Questions: ‘When we have built up the number of Amendment 8 not moved. prison places … to … 86,000, we will make … decisions on the right thing … about early release’. We are now House resumed. at that point, and we are there because we have worked hard to increase the capacity of the prison estate. Prisons: Early Release As a result, prisoners have not been held under Statement Operation Safeguard in police cells since September 2008, nor in court cells since February 2008. The 6.12 pm House will wish to compare this to 1991, when a total The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of nearly 376,000 nights were spent by prisoners in of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, with the leave of the police cells or court cells. House, I will now repeat a Statement made in another Twenty-seven thousand additional prison places place by my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor have been provided since 1997, 6,700 of them since and Secretary of State for Justice. April 2007. We now have well over 86,000 places by 863 Prisons: Early Release[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Prisons: Early Release 864 way of operational capacity, with headroom of 2,500. Those released went on to commit some 1,500 crimes. We anticipate that withdrawing the scheme will increase The scheme was introduced because the Home Secretary the prison population by around 1,000 to 1,200 prisoners. and his predecessors failed to provide sufficient prison My assessment is that on the basis of our plans further spaces. They failed to do so because the then Chancellor to increase the capacity of the prison estate, we can and current Prime Minister failed to provide sufficient safely manage the forecast prison population this year, money, as requested by the then Home Secretary, for in 2011-12 and beyond. We are on track to provide a those spaces. I would be grateful for confirmation of total of 96,000 by 2014 through our capacity-building that from the Minister. programme. I have several questions resulting from the Statement Given the headroom available in the estate, we are to put to the Minister. The first relates to the timing of therefore in a position to end the scheme. This does this announcement—just weeks before what we expect not mean, however, that there is no longer pressure on to be the announcement of a general election. Many prison places. The system continues to operate at of us are somewhat suspicious that the timing of this levels which are close to capacity. I pay tribute to all announcement might have something to do with the those who work so hard to protect public safety and fact that there is to be an election some time later in help offenders turn their lives around. the year. Can the Minister tell us exactly when the Protecting the public is the first priority of this Government planned to make this announcement? Government. We have acted decisively to tackle crime. Have they changed their minds on that? Was there any The use of prison has been central to that. Prison will debate within the department about when it would be always be the right place for the most serious, persistent made? Can he, with a straight face, tell the House that and violent offenders. It is vital if we are to protect the this announcement is being made at this time without public. any consideration of the coming election? There are 75 per cent more serious and violent My second question is about the number of prison offenders in prison than in 1997. People who commit spaces. The Minister told us in the Statement that serious offences are going to prison for longer. there are now some 86,000 places and, even with that Indeterminate sentences have been introduced for the figure, head room of 2,500. It is anticipated that most dangerous offenders; more than 5,000 have been withdrawing the scheme will increase the prison population imposed by the courts in the first three years of the by around 1,000 to 1,200 prisoners. He then told us scheme. We will continue to make sure that there are that there would be some 96,000 places by 2014. Can places for them. the Minister tell us exactly when and how those places At the same time we have also introduced tougher, will come on-stream, particularly in light of the fact more visible and effective community sentences and that we have heard recently of plans for prisons in are giving communities a say in the types of projects north Wales and one in Dagenham being shelved? We offenders carry out. In the case of less serious offenders, have seen changes to the Titans and the mini-Titans. If such non-custodial sentences can often be a better the noble Lord—as I am sure he would not—went to alternative to prison in terms of turning an offender his bank manager to arrange a reduction in some away from crime and further cutting reoffending rates. overdraft, I am sure the bank manager would say, We are also working hard to implement the findings quite sensibly, “Can you tell us how much you will pay of the Corston and Bradley reviews on women and off this year, next year, the following year, and so on?”. mentally ill offenders. I am clear that in such cases Similarly, it behoves the Minister, when he answers, to diversion away from prison is often the best approach tell us exactly when those extra places—that will take for both the offender and the wider community. We us from 86,000 to 96,000 places—are likely to come will continue to examine the number of women and on-stream. It is no good saying that they will come mentally ill people in prison. on-stream by 2014, as if, magically, it will happen by The results of the Government’s strategy are an then. We want to know how many will come on-stream overall fall in crime of 36 per cent since 1997, the most this year, next year and the year after. We would like substantial and sustained reduction since the war. the Minister to spell that out in some detail. Violent crime is down by 41 per cent according to the My third question is very important: how many British Crime Survey, the most reliable measure. The prisons are currently over capacity? We know that the chances of being a victim are at their lowest for a prison system itself is nearly over capacity. Could the generation. Minister talk about individual prisons? We have heard We have transformed the justice system into a public of some that have reached 150 per cent or 175 per cent service, one focused upon the needs of victims and the of their capacity. Can he confirm that and tell us law-abiding majority. We will continue to do so. I which those are, what regional variations there are and commend this Statement to the House”. what problems the prison estate is facing on that My Lords, that concludes the Statement. front? Fourthly, could the Minister address the question 6.19 pm about the reduction in crime and violent crime? I put Lord Henley: My Lords, I thank the Minister for this question to him earlier in our debate in the Moses repeating the Statement. I remind him that we welcome Room on the Motion from the noble Lord, Lord the end of this scheme; he knows that we always Carlile of Berriew. The Government boast about a opposed it. I also remind him of just why this scheme— reduction in crime and violent crime but, at the same which has led to some 8,000 criminals being released time, they tell us that there are 75 per cent more early, of whom some 1,500 were violent—was necessary. serious and violent offenders in prison than there were 865 Prisons: Early Release[LORDS] Prisons: Early Release 866

[LORD HENLEY] question—what have the Government learnt from all in 1997. The two do not add up. Why is it that we have this? What have the impacts been on individual prisoners? an alleged reduction in crime and violent crime and, at What has the impact been on the criminal justice the same time, see a dramatic increase in the number system as a whole? It seems that there has been a of prisoners? scramble to apply the scheme and a scramble to end it, Those are four small questions that I would like the so we hope that something has been learnt from it. Minister to address. No doubt there will be others from other parts of the House. We look forward to hearing his response in due course. Lord Bach: I thank both noble Lords for their comments and their questions, and I shall do my best to answer as many of them as I can. Above all, I thank 6.25 pm them for their support for the measure that the Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I, too, thank the Government have taken today. Minister for repeating the Statement, and for early I was asked why we are making the announcement sight of it. This is not a scheme which has had support. at this particular moment. As I think I said in the It was rushed in its introduction and poorly implemented, Statement, we have kept the situation under careful with no home circumstance check or risk assessment. review ever since we introduced ECL—assessing the It is a scheme which, as NAPO put it, wrong-foots delivery of new accommodation, population levels other authorities. I, too, have questions. and the latest prison population projections. Our The first is on capacity. The Statement tells us that assessment is that there is now a viable level of headroom capacity has been increased. Is this because there is in the estate to enable ECL to be ended. If there is and more doubling up, so that there is more overcrowding? it is our judgment that it is safe to do so, then surely If that is so, noble Lords will well appreciate that this this is the moment to remove it. must reduce the chances of rehabilitation, quite apart Regarding the general election, I am grateful to the from giving an impression rather at odds with the noble Lord for reminding me that there will be one reality. According to Ministry of Justice figures, in later this year. It cannot be that far in the future but I June 2009 the prison population was 111 per cent of hope it is long enough for the party opposite to be able the in-use certified normal accommodation. At the to tell us what its prison policy is. It seems to change end of last September, 85 of the 140 prisons in England day by day, with its leader saying on the one hand that and Wales were overcrowded. However, the Government more people should be in prison and its shadow Justice are now claiming that there is sufficient capacity safely Secretary saying there should be fewer. No doubt in to end the scheme. Has there been a dramatic change due course we will have a policy on that. That is the in the last six months? In 2008-09, almost 25 per cent reason we have timed it as we have. of the prison population was held doubled up in cells So far as concerns capacity, at the risk of boring the designed for one prisoner, or three in a cell designed House, this is how we see the position in the next few for two. When the Minister talks about extra prison years leading up to the figure of 96,000 by 2014. This places, would such a situation count as two prison year we are planning to deliver just over 3,600 places, places or one? If the former, it amounts to a significant including two 480-place young offender institutions and, I have to say, unacceptable fudging of the numbers. and the final 264 places at HMP Bure, which some If the latter, when can we expect to see the number of noble Lords will know opened as a new prison on the prisoners held in overcrowded cells go down? site of the former RAF Coltishall in 2009. We are The Minister talked of his assessment for the future. building two 600-place prisons—Belmarsh West in What assessment has been made of the places which London and Maghull in Liverpool—and are planning would have been freed up if people who should not be to build a 1,600-place prison near to the existing HMP in prison—such as the mentally ill and those with a Featherstone, to be operational in 2012. Full planning drug or alcohol addiction—were not there and were permission is being sought in partnership with the treated differently? It seems shameful that we talk of Youth Justice Board for a new 3,600-place young capacity in prison places, not the community-based offender institution at Glen Parva in Leicestershire. responses that are being brought into the picture, in Therefore, this year there will be 3,650 more places, the way that the Howard League report which we have next year 1,400, and 2,600 more in 2012. It is hoped just debated dealt with. After all, custodial sentences that the first of the new larger prisons will be open by are, of course, the most costly. the end of 2013. I hope that, in perhaps too much For clarity, I have one precise question: could the detail, I have answered the noble Lord’s points. Minister confirm that the home detention curfew is He asked about overcrowding. That is a perfectly not affected by this decision? legitimate question. Crowding is not evenly dispersed Reconviction rates have risen as the prison population across the prison estate. It is particularly concentrated has grown, with two-thirds of all prisoners being in local prisons—those that serve the courts of a reconvicted—so probably more than that are offending— specific area. There is less crowding in training prisons, within two years of release. That figure is 75 per cent where activities are targeted at reducing reoffending for children; I deliberately call those under 18 children. by providing constructive regimes that address offending Some prisoners released early under this scheme have behaviour and improve opportunities on release. All reoffended and some have reoffended appallingly. What prisoner accommodation is assessed and certified by assessment or work has the ministry done to compare the Director of Offender Management in accordance that with rates among those who are not on ECL or with national guidance and the related performance following ECL? In other words—and this is a fundamental standard for accommodation. Operational managers 867 Prisons: Early Release[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Prisons: Early Release 868 must ensure that each cell used for the confinement of Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I am always concerned prisoners has sufficient heating, lighting and ventilation when these figures are produced because they refer to and is of adequate size for the number of prisoners to operational capacity. As the Minister knows, two figures be held in it. No prison will be expected to operate at a are always used. One is the certified normal level of crowding beyond that agreed by the NOMS accommodation and the other is the overcrowded or Director of Offender Management. operational capacity. When I was the Chief Inspector The relationship between the reduction in crime, of Prisons, I tried to get back the previous responsibility which has been substantial, and the number of people for inspecting cells and deciding what the capacity in prison is of great interest. It would be rash to say should be. It was not just a question of size; it was that there is no causal connection between the two, whether there was a bed, a table, a chair and a locker although I would not want to place too much emphasis for every person in there. on that. There are more dangerous, persistent and We confuse ourselves if we talk about operational very serious offenders in prison now than before we capacity, because that is the overcrowded capacity. came into power. They are also serving longer sentences. Can the Minister tell the House how many people are What effect that has on levels of crime is for conjecture held over and above the certified normal number for rather than for definite view, and that is how I shall try accommodation in the prison system? to answer the noble Lord, Lord Henley. I am also grateful to the noble Baroness for her Lord Bach: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot comments. She asked whether new places have been give that figure. For this decision to be taken, it was delivered by further crowding. The new capacity has necessary for there to be some headroom between the been delivered both by substantial new blocks of capacity in the system and the current number of accommodation and through ensuring that we are prisoners. If that headroom was too small, it would making best use of the current estate. For example, not have been possible to make the decision that we this year a new 480-place young offender institution have made. But if the headroom is substantial—I have has been delivered at Littlehey in Huntingdon and a given a figure of 2,500 for the present time—our view 176-place house block at Swaleside. Therefore, it is is that it is safe to halt the early release scheme. That is mostly new capacity, together with the use of existing what we have done today. accommodation under the very strict rules and regulations that I have already read out. Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I know that the numbers in prison are a concern of the Minister referred in the Statement to examining the noble Baroness and of many noble Lords. Our the number of women prisoners and mentally ill prisoners. policy is to ensure that serious, persistent and dangerous That is a very small and woeful ambition. He referred offenders spend time in prison in order that the public to the Corston report, which clearly set out the fact are protected, but that those who do not need to go to that most women in prison are not a danger to the prison do not go there. That is why we have set up the public. Can he think of a more appropriate verb than community sentences and projects that I referred to “examine”, such as “reduce”? when repeating the Statement. We think that is the right policy. We think it is paying dividends and that Lord Bach: I am delighted to tell the noble Baroness the moment has come when it is appropriate and safe that there has been a reduction in the number of to get rid of this particular scheme. women prisoners since the Corston report was accepted by the Government. The figure is 5 per cent at this stage, and there is a target of a 10 per cent reduction 6.36 pm by 2012. In that case, the noble Baroness is right to Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, can I ask the chide me. It is much more than examination; it is Minister two questions? How was it that some serious actual reduction. The Bradley report on mentally ill prisoners were let out of prison early by mistake in the prisoners is more recent, and she will know that we north of England, and will he take seriously some have set up a cross-government scheme to try to horrible offences by bullies towards disabled people implement the recommendations of my noble friend living in the community, as highlighted by the recent Lord Bradley. Our intention is to make sure that the “Panorama” programme? number of mentally ill people in our prisons is also reduced.

Lord Bach: My Lords, I do not know the detail of Lord Elton: My Lords, I am very surprised that the the early release from the northern prisons. Unfortunately, Minister does not have the total CNA of the Prison errors are made from time to time in a system such as Service at his fingertips. Presumably he has the figure our prison system. That has always been the case. The for the total prison population. By putting the two House will recall the day when 500 prisoners were together you can discover how many are in operational released early in 1996. It happens. Luckily, I think the capacity but not in CNA. Will he please put those case referred to involved a good deal fewer than 500. figures in the Library as soon as they are available? Was it two who were released early? These mistakes do That is supplementary to the question of the noble happen. I cannot offer any other explanation for that. Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. So far as concerns the noble Baroness’s second My observation is that his right honourable friend question, I think I will have to take that back and, if I almost takes credit for the increase by 30 per cent in may, write her a letter about the situation that she the number of prisoners on his watch, as it were. Does describes. the noble Lord realise—I am sure that he does—that 869 Prisons: Early Release[LORDS] Prisons: Early Release 870

[LORD ELTON] doing so and commit serious violence, in many cases many in this House regard the test of success not in there is no alternative but to send them to prison in the increase in the number of prisoners or prison order that the public is relieved of their presence—at places but in the reduction in the number of places least for the time being. The Government have a proud needed because of expenditure on preventive measures. record on this. It is to try to improve the infrastructure A moment ago we were in court number 1; now we are of deprived areas in our country and to help people to in centre court. We were discussing how the system obtain legal help whereby they avoid falling into the could be changed whereby it generated within itself pit of crime. However, if they commit offences that are the means of reducing reoffending. I hope that the serious enough, they and others who may be tempted noble Lord can assure us that the Government are know that they will receive substantial prison sentences. also looking seriously at how to spend significant I hope that the noble Baroness will forgive me if I sums of money on preventing offending in its origins. use her question to respond on the CNA figures. At the end of January, the figure was 76,188 and the Lord Bach: My Lords, I could not possibly have prison population was 83,378. I apologise for not done this job for the time that I have done it without having those figures earlier. knowing of the strong feelings of many noble Lords on this subject. The test is whether there is less crime, Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, perhaps I may and less serious crime, than in previous years. On that respectfully challenge the main thesis of the Minister test the Government have been very successful—more in relation to the prison population. His case, put as successful than any other Government since the Second always with great force and articulation, is that persons World War. No one wants to send anyone to prison, in prison are there because they have to be there. For but the fact remains that there are those, I am afraid, 25 years I had the task of sentencing people, and I who commit serious and persistent crime or violent fully accept that persons who are dangerous must be crime and who need to be imprisoned. I think that that in prison; there is no other place for them. I fully is generally accepted around the House. However, the accept that persons who commit offences so outrageous Government do not leave it there. They say that that the public feel that there is no other place for particularly for those who have committed less serious them are properly in prison. However, that is not the crime and where the alternative is a short period of situation. As the noble Lord will remember from what custody it is better to press for harsh community was quoted in the Grand Committee a few hours ago, sentences to be imposed on defendants. The figures 55 per cent of all prisoners have sentences of six seem to back this up. months or less. They did not commit serious offences; The Government are putting forward many schemes, otherwise they would not have been sentenced for including intense community orders, which are important such periods. in trying to wean people off crime. Another thing that My other point relates to an order passed by Parliament takes people away from crime is their ability to get within the past few weeks which made 25 years the help at an early stage—possibly legal help—regarding starting point when considering a sentence for murder social problems that affect their lives. The Government involving the use of a knife, instead of the 15 years it have a good record on that, too. Perhaps I may digress had been hitherto. Two calculations were made of the for a moment. I went to Blackpool on Friday and saw effect that that would have on the prison population. the results on an estate of the provision of new buildings, One, from the Sentencing Council, estimated that the new schools, Sure Start projects, new educational population would increase by between 500 and 1,500 establishments, more policemen on the beat, less crime places. The other calculation, by the noble and learned and less fear of crime. It can and does happen in the Baroness the Attorney General, estimated that the community, but for those who offend seriously we increase would be somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000. believe that prison is the right option. Does that affect in any way the calculation that the prison population will be no more than 96,000 by 2014? Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I return to the figures given by the noble Lord, Lord Henley. I and many noble Lords find it strange indeed that Lord Bach: I will deal with the noble Lord’s two violent crime is down by 41 per cent, yet that more and points. We probably disagree about those who should more prisons are being built as a result of all these be in prison and those who should not, but the extra people in prison. We have been listening to a Government accept that there are problems with short very interesting debate in the Moses Room relating to sentences. Good alternatives can be found, if the the Howard League, which has done a brilliant job. I offences are not too serious, in serious community should like the Minister to expand a little on the route work, rather than sending people to prison. More he started to go down. As crime is reducing by the than one noble Lord has asked how it is that crime considerable amount that he indicated, would it not be figures can go down at the same time as the prison better to take a risk with some of the money that is population goes up. Serious and violent offenders being spent on building more prisons and spend it on receive longer sentences, and so those sentenced some very early preventive work, putting the money where it years ago will still be in prison. It is therefore hardly a is going to matter? surprise to see an increasing prison population for serious and violent offences, while also seeing a fall in Lord Bach: We spend a lot of money on preventive that particular type of crime. work. The Government have increased public spending As for his question on knife murders and the changes on the kind of work that we believe discourages crime. in the law, our estimate for an increase in the prison However, if people offend seriously, are persistent in population as a result of increasing the starting point 871 Prisons: Early Release[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 872 for tariffs for those convicted of murder with a knife— Personal Care at Home Bill which is 25 years—will take a very substantial period of time to build up. We believe there will be no impact Committee (Continued) for 15 years or so; the effect will not be felt until the tariff these prisoners would have been serving has 6.56 pm expired. While the figures are no doubt substantial, there is an area in which we will be able to study trends carefully and plan accordingly. Much will happen in Amendment 9 the intervening period, and this point and the pressure Moved by Earl Howe that the noble Lord talks about will be factored into 9: Clause 1, page 1, line 11, leave out “personal” our future strategy for managing the prison population. So, as I understand it, these figures are taken into Earl Howe: I shall speak also to Amendments 12, account in making our judgment. 31, 35 and 43. We come to an issue which I personally Lord Hylton: My Lords, I would like to ask a find extremely troubling and difficult. That is the question, which I hope is a constructive one, for the impact which this Bill and its regulations will have on Government to take away and consider. What would those people who, by any criteria, have care needs that they think of a new norm whereby in each prison, are of the most acute kind, but who nevertheless will those prisoners with the best conduct report would be be deemed ineligible for free personal care under the released in the event of that prison reaching its full proposed assessment criteria. I refer specifically to normal capacity? Surely this would help to prevent people who are deafblind. overcrowding and provide a useful incentive of good Deafblindness much surely be one of the most behaviour. I have not given notice of this question and isolating and burdensome of disabilities, but it is important I do not expect a fully considered reply, but I hope that to understand that the kind of care which deafblind the Government will take it away. people typically need is quite different from the care usually given to a frail, elderly person. Deafblind Lord Bach: Of course we will take it away. The people are often able to wash and dress and feed noble Lord has a great reputation and an interest in themselves, but without support in communication this field. The immediate danger is, if we did that, we and mobility, many of them are effectively condemned would be back to early release in the same but different to a life of solitary imprisonment in their own homes. way from what we are just abolishing today. The It can be impossible for them to have access to food or court’s sentence is of some significance in terms of basic information, and they are prevented from interacting when release is due, given that there are amounts with other people. Taking exercise, going out to the allowed. Of course, if prisoners behave well, they shops, visiting the doctor, dealing with household benefit. Whether they should benefit by being let out bills—all those things which we take for granted—are of prison earlier than the judge intended is a difficult out of reach without physical help. Indeed, deafblind question. people are at extreme risk of having to go into residential care if their care needs are not addressed—exactly the Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, I recognise imperative which has motivated the Government to that the Minister is correct to say that persistent bring forward this Bill. offenders may have to be incarcerated. What serious Yet this Bill will be of no use to those suffering from consideration are the Government giving to the deafblindness, despite the fact that under the current findings of many who are concerned about FACS guidance, deafblind people are frequently assessed imprisonment, that incarceration itself—and particularly as having a critical need under the category that relates long incarceration—contributes to the recidivism that to involvement in family and wider community life. is a characteristic of this country? The Bill in its current form will undermine FACS Lord Bach: The noble Lord, as always, asks a very guidance because it prioritises the provision of personal pertinent question. The truth is that, in order to care over other types of care, such as communications protect the public, some prisoners need to be locked support—the one form of help above all others that up for a very long time. However, it is important that gives deafblind people a lifeline to the wider world. As prison regimes have education proposals as well as such, the Bill appears discriminatory. other treatment, and I was quoting earlier—to use the Sense, the voluntary sector organisation which noble Lord’s phrase—in Court No. 1, the fact that champions the interests of deafblind people, has submitted huge amounts of money have been spent over the last a paper to the Joint Committee on Human Rights in few years to ensure that the prison regimes have much which it argues that the Bill violates the Human Rights more education and drug treatment provision than Act. In particular, it says that a failure to provide was ever the case. It is just a horrible fact of life that adequate social care for deafblind people can result in there are people in our society who have committed a breach of Articles 3, 5 and 8 as well as Article 1, such bad crimes that they need to be locked up for a Protocol 1. I am not in a position to offer a legal long time. There is often hope for them, and I have opinion on the case that Sense has advanced. However, seen this in prisons myself. I went to Foston Hall it needs to be taken most seriously. Women’s Prison in the Midlands the other day, where The Government justify the Bill’s discrimination on I met a number of women serving life sentences. Every the grounds that there are limited resources available. consideration was being given by excellent prison staff In saying that, they argue that their policy is directed to helping these women get closer to the day when to reach those who have the highest needs. The they would be able to come back and live in society. counter argument to that is that the policy is neither 873 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 874

[EARL HOWE] to overall care packages to individuals free of charge, reasonable nor proportionate because deafblind people and not, as the Bill intends, provision of the personal with the highest care needs will not receive care under care element only without charge. I understand the this policy. intention of this is to ensure that the financial burdens Amendments 9, 12, 31 and 43 are designed to for those in the highest needs are reduced as far as address these issues by broadening the definition of possible, but this falls outside the scope of this Bill and the kind of care that will be covered by the Government’s outside the cost envelope which has been allocated. policy. Amendment 35 takes a different approach It is fair to say that it is our intention to reform the deliberately distinct from that of Amendment 9 and care and support system so that it is fairer for all in the the others. It is a much narrower amendment which longer term, and we will be setting out in detail in the would ensure that those deafblind people who have White Paper how we intend to do this. However, full the greatest need and who are at most risk of needing care provision through taxation and free of charge at residential care if their needs are not met may qualify the point of need is something that we know is not for free care and support. I hope the Government will sustainable now, or for the longer term, and was ruled look at this. There is no doubting the recognition that out in the Green Paper. That is why we cannot accept Ministers have given to the unmet needs of deafblind Amendments 9, 12, 31 and 43, and ask that they are people. Only in June last year they reissued the guidance withdrawn. document, Social Care for Deafblind Children and Adults. This guidance is aimed above all at social Earl Howe: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. services staff. The case studies that Sense has provided The reason for tabling amendments omitting the word to me, and I believe to a number of your Lordships, “personal” was not to widen the scope for delivering are of the most heartrending character. The noble free services to those living at home; it was rather to Lord, Lord Low, has asked me to say how sorry he is highlight the importance of defining “personal” in a not to be able to be present to support these amendments way that did not exclude deafblind people. While I and to give the Committee a more graphic picture note what she said in relation to the guidance, I am a than I could ever give of the gravity of the disability little doubtful that it will of itself be sufficient because that deafblind people have to endure. I am in no doubt the definition of “personal care” in the draft regulations that the needs of deafblind people should be factored that the Government have promulgated does not to into any revision of social care policy. Therefore, I beg my mind include the kinds of tasks and activities with to move. which deafblind people typically require help. Baroness Thornton: Again, I have a very long note Baroness Thornton: As I think I have said to other about all the different issues that I thought the noble noble Lords, I regard this Committee stage as feeding Earl might raise to do with Scotland and all sorts of into the consideration that will be given to the issue. other things which I will not inflict on the Committee As the Committee knows, the closing date for consultation at this point. I will deal with the very important on the regulations finishes tomorrow. We will need to deafblind issue that he raised and make one or two look at this discussion and the doubts that the noble comments about the generality of the other amendments Earl has expressed about the regulations. in the group. I absolutely accept the point that the noble Earl Earl Howe: My Lords, I very much welcome that made about the gravity of the situation of deafblind assurance. I know that Sense will be very pleased that people and the problems that they face. It is very it will have the opportunity to make its case to the important that their needs should be recognised. There Minister. In the light of her assurances, it is appropriate is no doubt about that at all. The services concerned for me to beg leave to withdraw the amendment. are clearly of high importance to people who are deafblind or have multiple sensory impairments. As Amendment 9 withdrawn. the noble Earl said, specific guidance, updated and published in June 2009, advises local authorities that Amendment 10 not moved. they must ensure that services provided to deafblind people are appropriate and that deafblind people are able to access specifically trained one-to-one support Amendment 11 workers if they are assessed as requiring them. For Moved by Lord Lipsey that reason we published statutory guidance on that 11: Clause 1, page 1, line 16, leave out “requiring” and insert issue. I have an assurance that the guidance that we “permitting” will produce will cross-reference with that guidance. However, between now and Report I will have discussions Lord Lipsey: My Lords, one thing that has come with Sense and its supporters to ensure that we are out very clearly from the debate is the extreme doubt doing that in the right way because this is very important. about the cost to local authorities of what is proposed I reassure Sense that we are taking these issues very in the Bill. Wide-ranging figures have been suggested seriously and that they are taken into consideration, if but I will not go into that now. Local authorities have not in the Bill at least in the guidance that we will asked that if the estimated cost is exceeded the produce. I undertake to do that because, apart from Government should agree to pick up the whole of the anything else, I want to reassure myself that this is bill. It cannot be asking much of the Minister kindly okay. to give them that assurance this evening since it is in Amendments 9, 12, 31 and 43 seek to allow regulations accordance with the new burdens doctrine. That led on local authority functions and reablement to relate me on to another thought which relates back to a 875 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 876 debate we had earlier this afternoon—should we be care should meet this and the individual’s package of imposing this scheme on all local authorities at once care would be provided by the NHS and not by the in one go? local authority. It is important to recognise that if an We have learnt a lot from the Scottish experiment. individual needs continuing care to meet needs which Some people think that it has worked well, some do do not include a significant health component, this not, but we have learnt a lot from it. Would it not be will be provided by the local authority—it is right that best to try this scheme in a few local authorities as part they should be able to receive their personal care free of a holistic package of addressing the long-term care of charge, if they qualify for it. It is important that issue? Should we not try it in a few local authorities, NHS continuing care and free personal care are recognised see how the cost works out, and give them incentives as different ways of delivering health and social care from the Government to try it out? We would then be where the balance between health and care may differ. running a kind of pilot experiment, rather than imposing in one great movement a whole package which we 7.15 pm would have great trouble untangling should the fears I think that the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, is trying that I and other noble Lords have expressed here and to seduce us by his proposals of pilot schemes, but I elsewhere prove to be justified. Why are the Government am afraid that he is not going to divert us from our determined on a national scheme? intention in this matter. We oppose Amendment 11, which is a wrecking amendment. It refers to regulations Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I support the idea of a under Section 15 of the Community Care (Delayed pilot scheme, but if it is introduced, it is important Discharges etc.) Act 2003 as having the power to be that it covers widely differing areas. I am told that, for able to “permit”, as opposed to “require”, free provision example, in Buckinghamshire, the majority of people of personal care. However, Section 15 enables the meet their own costs and yet, perhaps, in Dagenham, Secretary of State to make regulations requiring—as they do not. It is very important that any pilot scheme opposed to permitting—qualifying services to be provided should cover a wide range of areas, to give an assessment free of charge. This amendment does not change the of the different situations that occur. fundamental nature of the power under Section 15 and therefore the reference to regulations permitting Baroness Thornton: Amendments 11 and 15 in the free provision of personal care does not correctly names of my noble friends Lord Warner and Lord reflect the nature of that power. Therefore, the amendment Lipsey and the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, focus is not necessary. Local authorities have the power to on the discretion of local authorities in providing charge for non-residential community care services but personal care at home. Before I come to the specific are not obliged to do so. They are therefore already amendments, some of which are, of course, against able to provide free personal care if they wish and do the spirit of the Bill’s principles, I say to noble Lords not need additional powers to be able to do so. that we recognise that, when determining people’s care Amendment 15 seeks to limit the functions relating needs, local authorities are best placed to judge what is to eligibility for free provision of personal care which appropriate in their own situations, depending on can be imposed on local authorities in regulations. their clients and on the availability of services. However, However, in doing so, it would prevent a very important we want to move towards greater consistency of care sub-delegation of powers by removing reference to provision and, as noble Lords know, we will soon have those functions included in the exercise of discretion. a White Paper. We believe that local authorities are best placed to We believe—I know that my noble friend Lord judge what is appropriate in their own situations, Lipsey disagrees with this—that this is a stepping dependent on their specific clients’ needs and stone towards greater consistency of care provision. circumstances and the availability of services. It is The Bill requires all local authorities to offer free therefore right that functions imposed on local authorities personal care at home to those with the highest needs relating to eligibility for free provision should include in order to end the postcode lottery which this House the exercise of discretion, so that they can effectively has discussed on and off for many years. It will allow manage the provision of free personal social care in councils to have elements of continuing discretion so their area. that they can provide the most appropriate services, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. which will be dependent on them knowing what works well in their community. Baroness Murphy: I apologise profoundly that I was We think that it is right that the Bill proposes that not here at the beginning of this debate—I was whipping functions imposed on local authorities relating to through the previous group. Amendment 15 deals eligibility for free provision should include the exercise with the exercise of a discretion. Can the Minister tell of that discretion, so that they can effectively manage me whether that refers to the reablement clause? I am the provision of free personal care in their area. There not sure, from reading the Bill. My understanding is will be a need for some cases to be considered in light that the local authority might have a discretion when of other healthcare services being provided to an or not to insist on the reablement. If it does, I am not individual and we have already discussed that. sure how that might relate, for example, to a stroke There is sometimes confusion about continuing patient returning home with profound disabilities, who care and what it means. It is care provided over an would probably not reach his maximum potential for extended period of time to a person aged 18 or over to several years, but whose carers might feel it was meet physical or mental health needs that have arisen inappropriate to subject to reablement at that point. as a result of disability, accident or illness. If an Can the Minister reassure us about how the discretion individual has primary healthcare needs, NHS continuing could be exercised in relation to reablement? 877 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme 878

Baroness Thornton: My understanding on the discretion The order makes provisions that will drive forward with regard to reablement is that, indeed, the local energy efficiency and emissions reductions in large authority has the power to use its discretion. We organisations, and has been developed with significant addressed this issue, I think, when I was asked about business and public sector input over the past four people receiving palliative care and whether subjecting years. The order is the first to be laid under powers in them to reablement would be appropriate. At that the Climate Change Act 2008 that provide for the time, as I recall, I said that it would depend. You creation of trading schemes. When this House passed would not necessarily say that someone who is receiving the Climate Change Act, it created a clear framework palliative care should not have reablement, but it may for the UK’s transition to a low-carbon economy and not be appropriate. The local authority would have the gave us the credibility to take the lead on the international discretion to decide whether that was the right course stage. That Act, as well as making provisions for of action. I will write to the noble Baroness in detail if carbon budgets and other measures to reduce our I need to, but my understanding is that this discretion carbon emissions, provides the legislative basis for the covers reablement. order. The CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme Order 2010 Baroness Masham of Ilton: Would it cover people will encourage participating organisations to reduce with cancer and motor neuron, where reablement might their emissions and become more energy efficient. make them worse rather than better? Analysis by the Carbon Trust in 2005 of the large private and public organisation sector found significant Baroness Thornton: That is the point—you have to potential for cost-effective emissions reductions through look at each person’s issues and problems. With cancer, energy efficiency. In its analysis, the Carbon Trust reablement might be appropriate, because someone found evidence that the introduction of energy might be in remission for a long time, so reablement efficiency measures was being hampered by at least might be exactly the right thing to offer. On the other four obstacles. These are: insufficient financial incentives hand, it might not be, because the illness is terminal to reduce emissions; uncertain reputational benefits and what is needed is palliative support as an end-of-life from demonstrating leadership; split incentives between strategy. landlords and tenants; and, finally, organisational inertia. The disappointing rate of implementation of energy efficiency is one of the reasons why my Government Baroness Masham of Ilton: That is another example have decided to introduce the CRC Energy Efficiency of flexibility. Scheme. The CRC is intended as a catalyst for action and is designed to address these barriers. Baroness Thornton: That is exactly the point, yes. The scheme will cover large public and private sector organisations that produce approximately 10 per Lord Lipsey: My Lords, of course I regret my cent of the UK’s emissions. Private and public sector failure to seduce the Minister: I shall bear it with as organisations that have at least one half-hourly meter much equanimity as I can muster. Therefore, I beg settled on the half-hourly market and use more than leave to withdraw the amendment. 6,000 megawatt hours of electricity through all their half-hourly meters will qualify for the scheme. As a Amendment 11 withdrawn. rule of thumb, organisations that spend more than £500,000 on their energy bills are likely to be covered Amendments 12 to 16 not moved. by the CRC. The Government will lead by example. All central House resumed. Committee to begin again not before government departments will participate, even where 8.19 pm. they do not meet the qualification threshold. Participants will be required to identify and report annually their electricity, gas or fuel-related emissions. Domestic housing CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme Order and transport emissions are not included in the scheme. 2010 Participants are required to surrender a CRC allowance Motion to Approve for every tonne of carbon dioxide emitted as a consequence of their reported energy supplies. These 7.20 pm allowances can be bought from the annual government sale or on the secondary market. Moved By Lord Hunt of Kings Heath We have created an additional safety valve buy-out That the draft Order laid before the House on mechanism whereby additional allowances can be 19 January be approved. purchased from the EU ETS if the price of CRC allowances becomes too high. The floor price of the Relevant documents: 6th Report from the Joint safety valve mechanism is being increased from £12 to Committee on Statutory Instruments and 9th Report £14 per tonne of CO2 to ensure that it is used only as a from the Merits Committee. last resort. This will be provided for in the recently published regulations to be made under the Finance The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Act, which will be laid before Parliament shortly. Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My After each year, the Environment Agency, as the Lords, we have before us today the Carbon Reduction scheme administrator, will publish a league table ranking Commitment Energy Efficiency Scheme Order 2010. participants by how effectively they reduced their emissions 879 CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme[22 FEBRUARY 2010] CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme 880 and became more energy efficient. CRC will be broadly considerable amount, and financial savings for participants revenue-neutral to the Exchequer: all revenue raised of around £1 billion per year. It is important to reflect from the annual sale of allowances will be recycled to that alongside the potential financial incentives and participants according to how well they perform in the disincentives for organisations that are part of the league table. CRC, at the end of the day, reducing energy consumption The scheme has been designed to overcome the reduces bills overall. three main barriers to energy efficiency that were I assure noble Lords that we have listened carefully identified earlier. The league table overcomes the barrier to stakeholders during three rounds of consultation, of unclear reputational incentives. It will provide clear and amended the scheme to improve the focus on evidence of which organisations are the most energy energy efficiency and to allow greater flexibility for efficient. The information will be available to investors, participants. I commend the order and beg to move. to the public and to other companies procuring goods and services. For the first time, energy efficiency will Earl Attlee: My Lords, I apologise to the House for be a reputational issue. being a few minutes late into the Chamber. I was Another barrier that we have addressed is the split surprised when we started at 19.20 rather than 19.30: incentive between landlords and tenants. This is a my comfort zone suddenly evaporated. difficult area and we have chosen to assign the I will be brief, as the crucial points of this important responsibility of reducing emissions to the landlord, matter will be picked up by my noble friend on the where they have the contract with the electricity supplier. Front Bench. Landlords are building professionals; tenants are not. Landlords are more knowledgeable about the measures The briefing that I am receiving from the UK ports that can be implemented to reduce energy use, and industry suggests that DECC advisers and officials are about how to implement them cost-effectively. not listening to them. As a result, the way in which the Furthermore, landlords rather than tenants can have carbon reduction commitment is applied will have by far the greater impact on the overall energy efficiency consequences that are unfair and, worse still, of a building. A recent study by the Carbon Trust counterproductive in terms of maximising the impact revealed that landlords have the ability to implement of the scheme. Parts of the Minister’s speech reinforced measures that could bring about 80 per cent of available that feeling on my part. emissions reductions. These arguments convinced us As noble Lords know, shipping is the most carbon- that placing the responsibility on the landlord was the efficient form of mass transportation of goods. Therefore, clearest and most effective way to reduce emissions. it is vital that the future measures to reduce carbon dioxide emissions do not compromise the industry’s The second major issue that we are tackling is the competitiveness with other modes of transport. lack of financial incentives. This is countered by the Furthermore, the ports industry has a very good record revenue recycling, which adds an additional incentive on tackling carbon emissions throughout its operations. on top of savings on energy bills for high performers. For example, I am told that, in the first half of 2009 Another barrier has been organisational inertia. alone, the port of Tilbury reduced its own use of This is addressed by the carbon reduction commitment, electricity consumption by around 30 per cent, building which will bring energy efficiency to senior management on reductions achieved in previous years. Tilbury has attention via ranking in the league tables, and through a public aspiration to become Britain’s greenest port. I the financial demands inherent in planning both for look forward to visiting the port for the first time the CRC and to introduce energy-efficient measures. It shortly. is expected that the need to plan and to purchase I fully support what the Minister said, but I ask that carbon allowances will gain finance directors’ he ensures that he fully understands the intricacies of attention in a way that an incremental carbon tax on port estates and their operations. From what he said energy bills would not. The requirement for up-front this evening, I am not convinced that he does. I urge purchase of allowances each April is intended to make him to take further time to consult and to make the organisations plan rather than deal with the consequences, necessary amendments to the CRC scheme, to as currently happens when energy bills are paid. Finally, ensure that the industry and its tenants can fully the fact that an organisation’s energy efficiency choices contribute to the county’s efforts to reduce carbon directly impact on how much money will be recycled dioxide emissions. to them provides a novel financial incentive that is already drawing a lot of attention from potential participants. 7.30 pm The unique combination of financial and reputational Baroness Scott of Needham Market: I thank the drivers will bring the CRC, and hence energy efficiency, Minister for bringing this important instrument to the to the attention of boardrooms across the country, House today. My noble friend Lord Teverson, who and will do so more effectively than any other policy knows so much about these issues, is unable to be with that could have been undertaken.. In many debates on us this evening. However, we have had a number of the issue, the need to bring this to the attention of the discussions about this. I can say at the outset that we boards of both public and private sector organisations on these Benches are very positive about what you are has been remarked upon. By targeting the CRC to seeking to achieve through this. overcome the barriers that have blocked progress in The timing is particularly good for me because last this area for so long, we are confident that by 2020 the week I was with a Commonwealth Parliamentary CRC will have delivered emissions savings of a Association delegation to Bangladesh. This is a country 881 CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme[LORDS] CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme 882

[BARONESS SCOTT OF NEEDHAM MARKET] business may be best equipped to properly comply in where the rising sea levels in the south are already time and with the minimum disruptions possible to leading to mass migration and where melt waters from their business? the Himalayas are causing widespread devastation. We can see that the burden of bureaucracy falls far Climate change is a reality there that one can see every beyond the companies which qualify in the regulations day and it puts this, and what we are seeking to before us today. Many more companies will have to achieve through this, very much into context. submit detailed reports to the scheme. While some of I have a few questions for the noble Lord. First, can this is clearly necessary to ensure that we capture the he confirm that fuel consumption is being calculated right players, adding unnecessary bureaucracy and for these purposes on an average carbon emission stress to the already challenging task of running a business, level—in other words, that it is not taking into account particularly in our current climate, is highly undesirable. how the carbon is generated? It seems rather odd to What steps has the Minister taken to ensure that this make no differentiation between organisations that reporting is as straightforward and simple as possible? are generating carbon that comes from renewable sources Will he also assure us that the period of uncertainty and those that are using coal-fired fuel. Is that the for businesses waiting to hear about their qualification case, and might it be possible to adapt the scheme as status is as short as possible? we go on to recognise organisations that choose to use These regulations seem to fall between being sensitive more sustainable energy forms? to individual sectors’ very different carbon abatement Secondly, with the fixing of the carbon price at challenges, and being a simple blanket measure. Some £12 per tonne, how confidant is the noble Lord that sectors captured by the scheme will have a far greater this is sufficiently high to genuinely have an impact on exposure to its costs than others. DECC estimates the behaviour of these large organisations—as he described additional costs of around 9 per cent on energy bills. it, the organisational inertia which has bedevilled us? While some sectors’ energy bills amounted to up to How confident are the Government that there will be 65 per cent of their total OpEx costs, for others this sufficient trading of these permits in order to create a is less than 10 per cent. It is clear that this scheme viable market? There is certainly some doubt among will squeeze some far harder than others. Has the experts that there will be. Minister considered the knock-on effects of these to Finally, even within the highly regulated EU ETS, specific sectors of British business? If not, I urge him there have been incidents of fraud and forged permits. to do so. Given that this scheme will include thousands of There has been a good deal of uncertainty around organisations, how confident are the Government about the inclusion of structured companies. In the last the auditing and management of the scheme? round of consultation the regulations were changed to We very much support what the Government are allow the separate inclusion of certain subsidiaries. seeking to achieve with this instrument. Will the Minister explain how the valid and sensible steps to give a level playing field to companies owned Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I thank the Minister through franchise structures and holding companies for introducing these regulations at last. Any scheme will not be exploited through restructuring larger firms aimed at improving energy efficiency and reducing to avoid involvement in, or fair payments to, the CRC carbon dioxide emissions must be seriously considered scheme? There has been criticism of this piecemeal and developed. There is a legitimate role for government approach to considering the specifics of a given sector. in providing business with stable, long-term incentives We have already heard from my noble friend Lord to invest in energy efficiency and carbon reduction. Attlee—who spoke about it more eloquently than I This order has the potential to be a progressive and ever could—about the problems perceived by the UK effective tool in reducing the carbon emissions from ports industry. There is very little that I can add to UK business. However, serious questions remain over what he has already said. I am sure that the Minister the development and implementation of the scheme. will respond if he can. To ensure the success of this programme it is essential As I said in the beginning, we enthusiastically support that the process be workable and intelligible throughout. any measures to drive energy efficiency, as do the The CRC could have been an excellent starting Liberal Democrats. We welcome this order. We hope point for a new carbon accountancy scheme, growing to see rapid improvements in the processes and details out of the inevitable accountancy that the scheme of their implementation. The Government have struggled entails. The Government are sticking doggedly to their with this. I am sure that any Government, whoever unambitious timeline for mandatory reporting that we happened to be in power at the time, would have fought so hard against during the passage of the struggled with bringing this to the table. It is very big, Climate Change Act. Businesses across the UK have complicated, new and exciting. The bad boys will look voiced concerns at the lengthy and overcomplicated for all the loopholes as they always do. One tries one’s process of consultation and publication that has taken best to write legislation in a way that gives the honest place. trader a fair crack of the whip. However, it is not easy. There have already been delays to the original timeline We support this as it stands. of this programme. As the April 2010 launch has remained fixed, there are real concerns that businesses Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I thank both will have too little time to comply now that the regulations noble Baronesses and the noble Earl for their constructive have finally been published. Has contact been made and helpful responses to the order. It is encouraging with UK businesses to reassure them, or to offer that there has been general support, although noble them assistance, guidance and support so that UK Lords have raised some legitimate issues and concerns 883 CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme[22 FEBRUARY 2010] CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme 884 which I will do my best to address. I thought that the review, and that we will look to identify any opportunities remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, about to simplify it. However, in the light of comments rising sea levels in Bangladesh and the living experience made by both the noble Baroness and the noble Earl, of climate change provided a helpful anecdote for the this of course has to be an organic process. The order current debate on the science. Issues have been clearly is a first and we need to learn as we go along. We will identified in relation to the Climatic Research Unit at review it on a regular basis, and if issues are raised the University of East Anglia and in the Intergovernmental which show that in the building of the edifice of the Panel on Climate Change process, but nothing that CRC—if we have missed points out or learn that there has occurred seems to undermine the basic science. are problems as we go along—we will be prepared to The evidence is clear that climate change is happening, make amendments from time to time. That has been and if we do not do something about it quickly, we the approach taken by my department in relation to a will be bequeathing to future generations what can number of the interventions that we have made. I can only be described as catastrophe. Unfortunately it is think, for example, of the introduction of banding in affecting the people of Bangladesh now. the renewables obligation scheme. That was done very Although this is not a debate about Copenhagen, it much in response to comments and concerns raised by is worth saying that despite the disappointment about stakeholders. We will continue in the same way. a lack of agreement on a legal treaty, none the less we The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, referred to the are seeing with the accord a significant number of timeline. I probably do not need to go into it, but I am countries making their own commitment. We have to happy to send the timeline to noble Lords if they wish build on that and work towards the Conference of the to see it. In brief, the introductory phase is from Parties 16 meeting to be held in Mexico at the end of April 2010 to 2013. The first annual reporting year this year. In that context, this order is important will start from April this year, the second annual because perhaps we have not placed the required emphasis reporting year being 2011 to 2012 and the third from on energy efficiency as a means of reducing emissions. 2012 to 2013, with the first sale of allowances taking I am convinced that there are huge gains to be made if place in April 2011. There is always a balance to be we can motivate individuals and organisations to take struck between wanting to get on with something and energy efficiency seriously. I take the point made by wanting to give businesses and public sector organisations the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, about the complexity time to adjust. I hope that we have got it right and that of and the time taken to produce the order, but with we can look forward to the introductory year starting the league table approach and a system of financial in only a few weeks’ time. penalties and incentives, we have an opportunity to make serious inroads into a sector which we have Both the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, and the noble found very difficult to encourage to take energy efficiency Baroness, Lady Wilcox, went on to ask how well we seriously. have communicated with the organisations that are Perhaps I may start by dealing with the issue of going to have to deal with the scheme. We have complexity because it is a fair point. Noble Lords very worked very hard with the Environment Agency, kindly did not comment on the length of the order, the scheme administrator. In April 2009 the agency but it is not brief and I accept, even though we are held eight regional seminars involving more than talking about large public and private sector organisations 600 delegates. Two further national events are which therefore ought to have the capacity to deal scheduled for this year, to be held this month and in with this issue, that there are questions about whether March, and the agency wrote to all potential participants this is too complex a system. I can say that we have during May and June 2009 to inform them about the consulted fully with the Better Regulation Task Force, scheme. My officials and representatives from the which in my experience is not backward in raising Environment Agency have over the past year hosted issues that have to be dealt with, and I believe that we around 140 events in order to consult on and raise have gone through all the hoops in that regard. We set awareness of the scheme. Lastly, what my speaking out to design a scheme that is as fair and transparent note calls “newsblast emails”—whatever that means, but as possible and we engaged extensively with stakeholders it sounds jolly good—have been distributed to our to make sure that that was the case. CRC stakeholder list which comprises more than 16,000 I want to come back to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, individuals. I think it means that we are highlighting on the question of fairness. His essential point was to what is taking place. There has been an important ask whether the scheme is fair to the port sector. We effort to get this across. I accept that we need to do have tried to ensure fairness across the sectors, and to more and we will be working with the Environment an extent the complexity of the order arises from the Agency to do all that we can to ensure that the fact that we have therefore had to engage with a range organisations that will be affected know that the scheme of intricate organisational structures. I know that this is coming their way. contrasts, for example, with the installation-based I take on board what the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, approach of the EU ETS, but we do not think that says about the ports, and I am aware of the concerns that would have been suitable. I also do not think that that have been expressed. Some noble Lords may have it would have identified some of the barriers that I heard from Forth Ports on these issues. One of the have already referred to. concerns is the apparent inability of the ports to influence their tenants’ emissions. For instance, I note 7.45 pm in a briefing sent out by Forth Ports that, I want to assure the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, “it is worth remembering that electricity on-sales represent a that we are committed to keeping the scheme under substantial revenue stream”. 885 CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme[LORDS] CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme 886

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] their boards do not see it as a major expenditure item, I take that to mean that this is a profit centre: the more yet from our point of view, we have to get across to electricity that tenants use, the more income is generated them that this is serious. In many cases, it takes very for the ports. That is a problem, of course, because the little effort for organisations to become more energy CRC is designed as an incentive which seeks to reverse efficient. I believe that the combination of the allowances that. system, the incentives for organisations that do well, There are financial and reputational rewards for and, perhaps in some cases, the league table, will those who use less energy. I know also that there have provide the necessary incentives. been concerns about what might kindly be described In my opening remarks, I referred to the fact that as erratic tenants. I would add that there is nothing to government departments will be enrolled in this scheme, stop any port from asking its tenants to take even though some of them do not reach the thresholds. responsibility for their own emissions by connecting League tables will have a very powerful impact on directly to the grid. The noble Earl asked whether I government departments themselves. Noble Lords know would continue to look at the matter. I will continue to that my department moved into its offices in Whitehall do so but, as I said, this is the start of a process. Noble Place in October 2008—in a building with the lowest Lords have not raised the issue of schools, for instance, rating for energy efficiency that you can have. We took but concerns have also been raised about schools a bit of punishment for this, but we have improved. being brought within a local authority’s responsibility. This shows that external pressure, combined with I again give the assurance that we will be monitoring leadership inside the organisation, can lead to that the scheme and its introduction very closely. If it kind of change. proves that we have to make changes, we will want to I turn to the issue of renewables and why they are do so. However, I also want to give certainty to businesses not raised here. This is a question I asked my officials that we are not going to suddenly come in and change too. The noble Baroness is quite right; no differentiation it after a few months. We need to see how it works in is made in relation to where electricity comes from. The practice, and give some stability to those organisations reason is that we are talking about ensuring energy as well. efficiency; that, in essence, is taken as the currency. I I turn to the question of price and trading. We have suspect that we could have a theological debate about had very happy debates on the EU ETS and issues that, but this has been decided in terms of simplicity. to do with the carbon price. The noble Baroness is That is why you do not get different recognition for probably aware that because Copenhagen was not all renewable, nuclear or, hopefully in the future, carbon we wanted it to be, the EU has not been able to say capture and storage, or whatever. that it will go from a 20 per cent to a 30 per cent The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, asked why we emission target. We wanted that as it would have had a group private equity funds with their investee companies. positive impact on the carbon price, which is low at This raises the whole issue of what the correct governance the moment and is undoubtedly causing some difficulties. structure is in these kinds of circumstances. We have Obviously, we do not want that to happen in relation taken the decision that grouping organisations in the to the allowances on this scheme. I am advised that we CRC is determined by whether or not there is a think we have got it right, but again, we will have to parent-subsidiary relationship as defined in the Companies look at that very carefully. Act. Where such a relationship exists, we think it is On the issue of auditing, my understanding is that appropriate for the subsidiary company to be grouped we are currently drafting guidance for the Environment under the parent to ensure that accountability is applied Agency on the criteria that equivalent schemes must at the correct level. The criteria set out in the Companies meet to be recognised as equivalent to the CTS under Act involve a level of influence of parents over their the early action metric. I take the point the noble subsidiaries that should be sufficient for private equity Baroness raises: there has to be integrity in the system, funds to encourage their investee companies to become and people have to trust the measurement; she is more energy efficient. Private equity funds have an absolutely right. Throughout the whole emission trading excellent opportunity to use their strategic overview of sector, the point about clean development mechanisms different companies to facilitate the take-up of best is that integrity of the measurement system is critical. practice, and can use their influence to raise energy One of the unnoticed gains from Copenhagen was the efficiency up the corporate agenda. I also think that in agreement in the accord to have, for the first time, a deciding to use this approach, we will overcome the much more vigorous process in relation to measurement. problem that the noble Baroness rightfully raised in It applies just as much here as it does to wider international her opening remarks. trading schemes. I am encouraged by the generally positive response As for the impact on business, I turn first to the to this order tonight. We will be looking very carefully noble Baronesses, and come back to the issue of price at implementation and at issues that arise when the and the question of whether there will be sufficient scheme is introduced. Overall, however, I think that robustness in the system to make businesses want to this could be very positive and powerful in ensuring take this seriously. We think that it is going to work; it that energy efficiency in this country takes a further is designed to encourage cost-effective emission reductions. leap forward in the next few years. The problem has always been that although the amount Motion agreed. of savings we think will come through reduced energy demand is £1 billion a year, energy costs in the budget 7.58 pm of large organisations can typically be quite low. That is the problem we face: directors of finance going to Sitting suspended. 887 CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 888

Personal Care at Home Bill My second positive comment about the Bill is that its financial framework is built on removing some of Committee (Continued) the divide between health and social care budgets. The Government intend that this will lead to £420 million 8.19 pm moving from the central health budget to the local social care budget. This is just the kind of holistic, joined-up thinking, pooling resources across old Amendment 17 boundaries, that will achieve sensible outcomes for Moved by Lord Best those who need personal care at home. 17: Clause 1, page 1, line 22, at end insert— My third commendation for the Bill is that it should lead to equality of treatment in the assessment of care “( ) not be enacted before 1 April 2011” needs throughout the country, along with, I hope, the portability of that assessment for those who move Lord Best: My Lords, I have already declared my from one place to another, as proposed by the noble interest as chair of the Hanover Housing Association, Baroness, Lady Campbell. This approach to assessment which provides extra-care housing. I must now declare of needs should lead to greater fairness all round. an interest as president of the Local Government However, I believe that these amendments are necessary Association. I am grateful to the LGA for its briefings if local authorities are to be able to carry out the new on the Bill. duties now laid upon them. The first amendment in my name in this group, Amendment 44 would make sure that Parliament Amendment 17, and Amendment 44, which is also in and the wider public know the real cost of free personal the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, both raise care at home and understand where the cost will fall. questions about the real cost of providing care free of They can then decide whether any in-flight corrections charge to people with high needs living at home. are needed to make the arrangements affordable at Amendment 44 calls for a regular appraisal of the central and local government levels. The amendment actual expense in place of the unsure estimates that would require the Secretary of State to commission an are all we have to go on at present. Amendment 17 independent review, initially and then annually, reporting seeks to put back the date of commencement of the to Parliament on what the measures really cost and legislation by six months. what they are likely to cost over the next five years. My motivation for pursuing these amendments comes The amendment calls for the itemisation of any efficiency from the real anxieties felt throughout local government savings which the Government expect will arise from a that, first, the Government’s “guesstimates” of the reduced use of residential care by people for whom the costs involved may turn out to be highly inaccurate; local authority has to pay. I am not sure how real these secondly, that the financial penalties, possibly in hundreds savings may be, but if there are savings, the independent of millions of pounds if the figures turn out to be review will identify them. underestimates, will be borne entirely by the local The noble Earl, Lord Howe, spelt out at Second authorities, which are already expected to contribute Reading some of the key concerns of the LGA’s £250 million by making efficiency savings on other members. I want to underline and expand on these spending; and, thirdly, the current planned deadline of points. I fear that the accuracy of the Government’s 1 October 2010 represents for local authorities an estimate of a £670 million total cost is very much in impossible task. doubt. The Bill’s impact statement says there is “inherent Let me explain why these fears, expressed very uncertainty” in estimating the costs. It is not known plainly by the LGA, seem likely to prove well founded. how many people who currently fund their own care at However, I preface my remarks with some positive home will come forward and claim the costs of care comments about the financial arrangements which the from the local authority. It is unknown how many Bill seeks to deliver. It must be a good thing that the people who have gone into residential care and pay Bill has helped to trigger this national debate on their own way will move back to their homes or into paying for personal care for older people and others. new homes or extra-care housing where their care will In the mid-1990s I organised an inquiry by the Joseph be free. Statistics are not collected on the number of Rowntree Foundation into paying for long-term care. people who are defined as being in “critical” need of We recommended a national care service, with no care under the Fair Access to Care Services assessment boundaries between health and personal care, free at process. Nor are there figures for the numbers already the point of delivery, but paid for by a compulsory receiving reablement services or what proportion of national care insurance scheme funded by payments those receiving reablement services will need no further from earnings over one’s lifetime alongside national help once that reablement exercise is over. Therefore, health insurance contributions. We failed at the Joseph there are lots of uncertainties. Rowntree Foundation in 1996—as did the King’s Fund The Association of Directors of Adult Social Services with an excellent financial analysis from Sir Derek reckons that the true cost of offering free personal Wanless 10 years later—to provoke sufficient debate care to those with high needs could well exceed £1 billion for this issue to become a central concern for politicians rather than the Government’s figure of £670 million. of all parties. The publication of this Bill has helped to Because the Department of Health has capped its own bring these issues centre stage and, I hope, will eventually contribution at £420 million, the balance will all fall lead to the essential consensus that we need on how on the local authorities. I have noted that local councils the dramatically rising care costs of the future can best are already expected to fund £250 million in very be met. uncertain efficiency savings. For sure, there are few 889 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 890

[LORD BEST] Earl Howe: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Best, opportunities for any savings within the overstretched has succinctly summed up the case. The Government’s social care budgets. Eighty-one per cent of home care timetable for implementing the Bill is unrealistic in the is currently provided by the private sector under very extreme; in fact, I am afraid that I go so far as to say competitive contracts. Wages are notoriously low and, that it is grossly irresponsible. consequently, staff turnover can be high and shortages Local authorities have already set their budgets for of properly qualified care workers are acute in some the coming financial year, which already include areas. Social care has had to be fiercely rationed in substantial efficiency savings. They are therefore coming many areas, so it is not surprising that local authorities at this exercise not only not knowing how they are are fearful of the consequences, not only for funding going to find the money to fund free personal care but the £250 million allocated to them but also perhaps completely unprepared for the practical aspects of another £300 million if the Government’s estimates of implementation, as the noble Lord rightly said—never the real cost prove completely wrong. mind having to get used to a new system of assessment, 8.30 pm which is a major task in itself. They will have to have enough people on the ground capable of responding Amendment 17 would put back the start date for to what in some areas will be a tidal wave of applications. the implementation of the new arrangements from the In many councils, those trained people on the ground Government’s planned 1 October 2010 to 1 April 2011. are simply not there. It seems unreasonable to expect local authorities to be fully geared up and ready to go by 1 October when the We know—and the Government themselves admit— following points are taken into account. First, a new that the costings underpinning this policy are of the national assessment tool is to be provided to local weakest kind. They are based almost entirely on authorities in the summer of 2010. This will be essential assumptions which themselves rest not even on vague to them in implementing the Bill’s measures, but they data but on no data at all. Even supposing that areas might not receive the details until as late as 31 August. for further efficiency savings can be identified, the There has to be training and the organisation of Government themselves concede that such savings do administrative structures. New IT systems will be needed not just happen overnight. They happen gradually, to record assessments and capture all the necessary over a period of years. Therefore, to expect councils data. If guidance came out much earlier than late collectively to find £125 million as from October this August, it would be sure to find people away on year, and £250 million per year thereafter, is to place holiday. All this work will have to be done in a space of upon them a burden which not even the most well perhaps four short weeks. To expect local authorities managed of them will be able to sustain. to handle all the necessary training and organise internal Make no mistake, this is a new burden. It defies administrative structures in that timescale is simply belief that the Minister can claim that it is not. It not realistic. would not be a new burden if central government were Secondly, the Government are also planning to funding the whole policy, but they are not. Central revise their guidance on fair access to care services. government have limited their own liability, while at Eligibility for free care will depend on that, which, the same time inflicting unlimited liability on to local again, will mean new software, with providers having government. The result of that is likely to be that to develop the requisite systems and councils having to councils will find themselves making ill thought-through procure them. More training will be necessary on top and perhaps arbitrary decisions in order to achieve of that already required. instant savings. Thirdly, new staff will need to be recruited to take These rushed decisions are almost bound to impact on the expected extra workload, not least covering the adversely upon council residents. We cannot predict in additional reablement services envisaged in the Bill. what ways, because that will depend on the budgets Fourthly, councils will have to have their budgets set in that are cut, and/or the new charges that are levied. early March, as they always do, and most are well Even then, councils will still be groping about in the down that road. The Bill comes very late to reorganise dark prior to 1 October as regards the costs of 2010-11 budgets. With local and national elections implementation. London councils have pointed out ahead, it seems unreasonable to expect local authorities that if the Government’s estimates are incorrect even to budget for the Bill’s provisions for the financial year by 1 per cent in the first year, the additional costs that is just about to start. Moreover, although costs nationwide could amount to another £40 million. would start to fall on local authorities on 1 October The Minister knows, without me telling her, that 2010, the Government’s Pre-Budget Report indicates introducing any new policy brings with it upfront that the savings, if ever they materialise, from reduced costs. It is no different here; upfront costs will be expenditure on residential care will not be achieved at incurred at the precise time when councils are expected the target level of £250 million before 2012-13, which to make savings. What estimates have the Government means that a new financial burden will fall on local made about the additional manpower resources needed authorities during 2010-11 and 2011-12. Under the to deliver reablement on the scale envisaged? If no agreed new burdens directive, government are committed such estimate has been made, do we not owe it—at the to funding fully any such burdens that result from new very least—to local authorities to think about this in a legislation. That adds another good reason for holding measured and considered way? The money for reablement back implementation of the legislation. Amendment is one thing, but you need trained people to deliver it 17 would put back the start date to 1 April 2011. I to the right standard of quality. If you do not have have pleasure in moving it and commending also that, you are creating false expectations among the Amendment 44. public. 891 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 892

The Royal College of Nursing is very concerned get a Bill introduced at this haste without a commencement about this, as is the United Kingdom Homecare date. It is never the case that you get a Bill introduced Association. I have seen some of the responses from at this haste without a commencement date where the local authorities to the department’s consultation exercise timetable is so flimsy—and where, for the reasons that and a note of panic is detectable in some of them. This the noble Earl, Lord Howe, set out so well, it is is not just on the funding question but also on the extremely doubtful that the timetable is even attainable. issue of manpower resources. Again, I say that it is There is a further argument for a commencement irresponsible of the Government to take things at this date, which arose earlier in our debates: there is widespread breakneck pace. It is not being straight with the public. agreement, although it seems harder to turn this into There is only one logical way forward, which is to reality, that we need some form of consensus over this. revise the timetable for implementing this Bill and the It is no good producing a Bill to last the four weeks regulations. until a general election; we want a Bill that will take us The Government need to get round a table with forward in policy in this area not over days, months or local government and to put together a more robust even years but over decades, because decades are the impact assessment based on much more accurate and time horizon for the Bill’s effects. It therefore makes reliable figures. This can be done. Only then, when sense for a commencement date to be after a general proper costings are in place, and everyone agrees that election. The proposal, which would insert a the plans are workable and affordable, should the commencement date to be agreed by affirmative resolution policy be implemented. Whether the policy can ever in both Houses, would have that effect. In my judgment, be made workable and affordable has to be a matter of it would not be possible for the Government to get an doubt but it is certainly neither of those things at the order of that kind through before an election. moment. I very much hope that the Minister will take Our second proposal is that this be subject to the on board the very serious concerns expressed on this affirmative resolution procedure. Frankly, I am astonished issue and be prepared to act accordingly. that the Government have tried this one on. The argument is that the regulations that are being amended Lord Lipsey: My Lords, I shall speak in favour of by the Bill were under the negative resolution procedure, the two amendments to which I have appended my and therefore the Bill should be too. That is rather like name, Amendments 38 and 46. The first of these saying that a home that was fit for a mouse will of prescribes that regulations under the Bill should be course be appropriate for an elephant. The House is subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, not the clearly required to look at the amendments in detail in negative resolution as now, and the other that there full debate and, if they will, agree them. We talk should be a commencement date for the Bill, which sometimes about Henry VIII powers. On that sort of again would be subject to the affirmative procedure. scale, Henry VIII was an uxorious monogamist in In moving these amendments, I am delighted to be comparison with the Bill, which is simply unsuitable quite confident that this time the Minister will not be to be taken under the negative procedure. able to say that these are wrecking amendments. They I commend both these amendments to the Committee. are designed specifically to improve the Bill, and I I hope that the Minister will accept them today; if not, hope therefore that I shall be more seductive with my she may be assured that we will be pursuing them on arguments on these than I proved to be on the “wreckers”. Report. It will be a much better Bill when we succeed, I can be pretty brief because the case for the as I am wholly confident that we will, in inserting both amendments is self-evident. The Bill is the thinnest of amendments into it at that stage along with other skeleton Bills; it does not in itself do anything except necessary changes. remove the limitation on local authorities. All the substance—the flesh, the bones, the blood, the brains—is 8.45 pm to come in the regulations, which are of course out for a consultation that closes tomorrow. It is sad indeed Lord Butler of Brockwell: My Lords, I support that the House has to consider the Bill today when the Amendments 38 and 46, particularly Amendment 46, consultation on the regulations does not even close on the grounds that they would both require some until tomorrow, and it is a sign of what the noble further action in Parliament before the Bill came into Lord, Lord Butler, who has participated in this debate, effect. Indeed, I do not see how the Government could said earlier: that the Bill is being treated as if it were a honourably object to having a procedure of this sort. I piece of emergency legislation. have criticised the process by which this policy was I see that the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, is with abruptly adopted and introduced, but I leave that us, and it is good to see him. It is quite strange, this; for aside. Nobody could listen to the debates today without 10 years he and I, with different solutions in mind, being aware of the serious concerns among those in have tried to get long-term care up the policy agenda. the frontline about the incentives that this Bill would We took one step forward sometimes, but usually two introduce, and nobody could be unaware of the steps back. Then, suddenly, as a result of the Prime controversy about the costs of the Bill and the uncertainty Minister’s conference speech, it has become a subject about that. As the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, has said, so urgent as to require emergency legislation without the consultation procedure does not even finish until any of the safeguards that this Parliament and this tomorrow. country’s unwritten constitution usually demand in There used to be—I hope there still is—an honourable such cases. convention that, in the lead-up to a general election, a It is not often that you get a Bill without a Government did not take decisions which would commit commencement date. It is certainly not often that you the next Government to very wide-ranging and possibly 893 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 894

[LORD BUTLER OF BROCKWELL] I am not sure that that is true. It depends entirely on irreversible activities. However, when the country is in the answer to one question, which I want to put to the the economic state that it is, to introduce a policy Minister. Pages 14 and 15 of the consultation document which, on the Government’s own estimate, would cost about the regulations helpfully set out two things side £670 million a year, the source of which has not been by side. One is the FACS “critical” criteria band; the identified, is in my view “worse than irresponsible”, to other is the list of activities in daily living with which take the expression of the noble Earl, Lord Howe. We people must have problems to be eligible. It is quite have a situation where the Government are arguing clear from the activities of daily living that someone that it is too early to start reining back public expenditure must have problems with four of them. However, in to reduce public debt, and that is a big argument in the the FACS “critical” band, the wording is not clear. politics leading up to the general election. It is one The criteria for the critical band are as follows; I thing to say that it is too early to cut back expenditure; apologise for reading them out briefly. Somebody’s it is quite another to force through in the weeks before needs are deemed to be critical when: a general election a policy like this, which would “Life is, or will be, threatened and/or … Significant health impose on the Government after the election a very problems have developed or will develop … Serious abuse or large and indeterminate piece of extra expenditure. neglect has occurred or will occur … There is, or will be, little or The Government may win the general election. If no choice and control over vital aspects of the immediate environment … There is, or will be, an inability to carry out vital personal care they do, it will still be in the Government’s interests to or domestic routines … Vital involvement in work, education or have had a pause for reflection, to have taken into learning cannot or will not be sustained … Vital social support account the outcome of the consultations and to have systems and relationships cannot or will not be sustained and/or considered the regulations which should be brought … Vital family and other social roles and responsibilities cannot forward before they bring this Bill into effect. If they or will not be undertaken”. lose the general election and the Opposition become How many of those criteria must a person fulfil to be the Government, for the Government to have forced eligible? This is the curse of the bullet point; it is not through this legislation in advance of the election is, in clear. It mentions these criteria but says “and/or”. Is it my belief, in the highest degree irresponsible. I do not two? Let us presume that it is two. Is it three? Is it four? speak from a politically partisan point of view when I That, in conjunction with somebody having to have say that. In political terms, the Government might problems with four ADLs, means that somebody must regard this as a piece of scorched earth; I think, in be very, very ill and restricted in their ability to live to national terms—and I do not use these words lightly—to be eligible for this. That makes a huge difference to all force through this legislation, in advance of a general the assumptions that underlie the Bill. election, and to impose it on an incoming Government It could be that in six months’ time it is quite would be an act of national sabotage. evident, after the implementation of the Bill, that the criteria have been drawn so narrowly that it is not Baroness Murphy: My Lords, follow that, as they delivering personal care to anyone, or to anything say. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, has three amendments like the number that had been assumed. In which case, in this group to which I have added my name, but I I assume, the Government would quickly want to support all the amendments in this group. They go rectify that. Equally, in six months, if this legislation is largely to delay and alter the style of implementation, enacted, word may go around like wildfire that free giving the Government more time to do what they personal care is available, at which point thousands need to do to get this legislation in shape. It is the most and thousands of people who self-fund present themselves important group of amendments that we have debated for assessment. In either of those two cases, that today. If it were to be accepted, it would allow all of us means that this legislation would be wrong. Therefore, to feel a little more confident that what the Government it seems to me that within six months we can begin to want to achieve would eventually be achieved by a tell whether it is appropriate or not. The critical question consensus between the parties and in the country that I want to ask the noble Baroness is how many of about what needs to be done on personal care. This those criteria does one have to fulfil? From that we can would give us a real breathing space, and an honourable work out what the impact is likely to be both in one for this Government to accept. I support the budgetary terms and the likely impact on social services amendments in this group and I hope very much that departments, which the noble Lord, Lord Best, set out the Government will listen. so eloquently. Baroness Barker: I will speak to Amendment 47, which stands in my name and is grouped here. In The Lord Bishop of Norwich: My Lords, the financing doing so, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, of this Bill is a puzzle to me but then lots of things to for her efforts to ensure that Members of this House do with finance are a puzzle. As I understand it, the had copies of the draft regulations and the consultation Pre-Budget Report suggested that annual savings of paper on draft regulations. There is something £250 million could be achieved from the reduced costs fundamental in those documents which led me to table of residential care by 2012-13—and thus I suppose Amendment 47, which asks for there to be a review available to local authorities. However, after not within a year of the Bill being implemented, but implementation on 1 October local councils would be within six months. The reason for that is that I think expected to find an additional £250 million a year noble Lords have overlooked something fundamental. straight away. Are these two sums unrelated, though We have made an assumption about the eligibility for strangely the same figure? The submission from the this provision; we have assumed that it will make free LGAs seemed to me persuasive, as did the speech of personal care widely available to many people. the noble Lord, Lord Best, tonight. 895 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 896

It is intriguing for a bishop that the Government’s Houses of Parliament on the content of the Bill and declared commitment to ensure new burdens falling on the much wider range of issues in which it is on local authorities should be fully funded is commonly enmeshed. called the “new burdens doctrine”. I fear doctrines are I have a specific point on Amendment 44. When much misunderstood. They are thought to be rigid something like this is put into place, it is important and inflexible by those who do not understand them. that we see the outcome in terms of real costs. However, Cardinal Newman, soon to be beatified, wrote a lot I would also want to add the word “net”. We need to about the development of doctrine. I will spare you look at the net costs of provisions of this kind. The too much theology. The essential truth remains, in his information that I have is that in Wales, for example, understanding, that the understanding of doctrine the percentage of the cost of providing personal care develops and a doctrine gradually discloses more of raised by means-testing is in the region of 14 or 15 per its truth through history. Thus the doctrine is reshaped cent. That means that the expenditure is already committed as its truth unfolds. to virtually 85 per cent of actual costs. We need to see I wonder what sort of unfolding of the “new burdens what the net cost is in order to properly assess whether doctrine” we are actually witnessing in relation to this savings elsewhere would go some way—perhaps the Bill. There seems to be a curious flexibility built in whole way—towards covering some of these costs. about local government financing of the provisions of I support these amendments because, as I said, this Bill, which is not carried across into the very sharp there has to be rethinking and constraint, but I would distinctions that are drawn between care at home and not want to stop the Bill dead in its tracks. Naïve as I care in residential care homes. am as a Cross-Bencher and in the ways of party I was much struck by the explanation given by the politics, I realise that emergency legislation is the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, of her amendment. It flavour of the month before a general election. However, seems to me what we probably need is both a short-term as the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, indicated, this issue is review, for the very reasons that the noble Baroness, back on the agenda in a sensible and serious way. The Lady Barker, has explained, as well as much longer-term wider community is debating this sensibly regardless reviews of what this Bill might lead to. It could well be of whether we in this House and down the Corridor what the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, has explained are doing the same. will happen. The fear in my part of the world is a I fear that if the Bill is stopped in its tracks, it will rather different one—some of the adult day care centres not come back in significant form after an election— in Norfolk have been under threat already. They certainly whether as a similar Bill or as any other legislation. do not care for those in the greatest need, far from it, My fear is that the discussion of these immensely but as well as specialist services they provide meals, important issues will once again be sent into the long companionship and a life beyond their home for those grass because “they are too hard to deal with” or “the who would otherwise have very little social engagement problems are too large and the costs would be too at all. Being continuously at home without any social great”. For various reasons, the latter view is naïve. encounter can cause many older people to decline in The costs of pensions in the public sector are too spirit pretty rapidly and that often leads on to greater great, but we are not debating those in the same detail. physical decline. We ought to be looking at this issue and bringing it Such unintended consequences of this legislation back. It will not be brought back in any realistic way could be very expensive in a host of ways, not simply unless something is put onto the statute book that in financially, but in terms of our social fabric. I noted the end, to be honest, requires revision. These provisions that the briefing from the Equality and Human Rights allow the possibility of such revision. Commission, while broadly supportive of the Bill, raised this point about negative trade-offs. What I am Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, the noble sure none of us wants to see is the free provision of Baroness, Lady Masham, raised an important point personal care for some in great need at home leading regarding the personnel available to deal with these to others, with lesser needs, feeling imprisoned in their issues. They are not available. From both direct personal homes. experience and anecdotal comments from people who have told me of their histories, I have found that in 9pm many cases local authorities cannot assess anyone within three months. If that is the case, how will they Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, having listened carry out all these new assessments? Getting people to the debate on these amendments, I think that whatever trained for these jobs will be a major issue, not just in happens, it is most important that vulnerable people terms of expense but in terms of getting them all to a and their carers should not have their hopes raised too point where they can operate efficiently. I said on high by what seems to be an impossible challenge, Second Reading that the whole Bill is pure electioneering. especially if there are not enough trained personnel to That is tragic because this is a worthwhile cause which make it happen. It is not just finance that is important; we should all be looking at. it is also people’s hopes, expectations and spirit. The points made by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, are very interesting, and I appreciate his comments. Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, I support However, I support the amendments. The whole thing many of the amendments in this group: Amendments 17, has to be thought out much more thoroughly and 38, 44, 46 and, with some modification, Amendment 47. local authorities must be sure that they can produce The important thing about all these amendments is not only the money but the trained staff necessary to that they would require further interrogation by both carry out the assessments and deliver the care. 897 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 898

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I am replying to this The ADASS survey, to which less than half of the group of amendments: Amendment 17, in the name of councils responded, proposed an annual cost of £1 billion the noble Lord, Lord Best; Amendment 20, in the rather than £670 million. Your Lordships will not be names of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble surprised to learn that we have gone through the Baroness, Lady Morris; Amendment 38, in the names figures with the ADASS, and it has conceded not only of the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Lipsey, the that it had overestimated the effects of lost income but noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady that it had misread the impact assessment on the likely Murphy; Amendment 44, in the names of the noble numbers of younger adults who might be eligible for Lord, Lord Best, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe; free care. Our detailed consideration of its survey Amendment 45, in the names of the noble Lords, therefore gives us no reason to believe that the estimates Lord Warner and Lord Lipsey, and the noble Baroness, that we originally published were not correct. However, Lady Murphy; Amendment 46, in the names of the we will be focusing on this and remain committed to noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Lipsey, the noble our review in 12 to 18 months, after the policy is Baroness, Lady Murphy, and the noble Earl, Lord introduced, rather than providing powers to review it Howe; and Amendment 47, in the name of the noble in the Bill. Baroness, Lady Barker. I say to my noble friend Lord Lipsey that the This group seeks to address a number of issues PSSRU modelling has already been published. I will concerning the Bill—the commencement date, the way ensure that he receives a copy of it. I thought that I in which it will be reviewed, and the cost of the Bill. It had read it somewhere. is right that legitimate concerns are raised about the Amendment 17 seeks to delay the introduction of way the provisions are introduced, the costs and how free personal care at home to those with the highest it will be reviewed. We do not agree that delay is need by delaying the date when the necessary regulations needed or warranted. We have made it clear that we may be enacted. We have been clear from the outset want to introduce the regulations so that they will take that we intended to introduce the provisions from effect from 1 October this year and people can benefit 1 October. We have already made available a working from the earliest possible date. I think that it is draft of the regulations which will inform how this disappointing that so many councils that have responded scheme is proposed to be delivered, and we intend to to the consultation have so far focussed almost solely publish detailed guidance alongside the national on the financial aspects of the scheme—I will return assessment tool for determining eligibility for free to our view of their figures in a moment—and so little personal care in the early summer. We know that this on the practicalities of implementation that we identified is a challenge for local government but, as I say, it has in our consultation document. had plenty of notice of these proposals. It also has a These proposals are not brand new or a great highly trained workforce and the tools which will surprise to these councils; what we are intending to do enable it to implement this if it has the will to do so. was signalled well in advance. Indeed, we are working We do not believe that there is any need to delay the with them and with other stakeholders on an almost implementation of the regulations enabled by the Bill constant, daily basis. We are committed to working in this way, and as such ask the Committee not to very closely with them and supporting them through support Amendment 17. the process of introducing this. We know that this is a challenge for them, but we think that it is achievable if I turn to Amendment 20, in the name of the noble they start in a timely fashion. Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morris. The policy is to provide free personal care and it is The Bill has a simple purpose: to bring relief to right that councils play their part in delivering it. As those disabled adults and older people who have the such, it would be inappropriate to accept this amendment, highest personal care needs. Despite the furore surrounding which would enable the Secretary of State to put a cap the Bill, we do not believe that our costs are on the amount of free personal care which councils underestimated. We think that they are a fair cost: can be required to deliver. I am concerned that setting £670 million, with £420 million funded from the such a limit, giving local authorities the protection of Department of Health and £250 from local government an arbitrary cap on expenditure, might reduce the efficiencies. The estimates of the costs of free personal incentive for them to manage the costs of the policy as care at home are derived from analyses by the Personal effectively as possible. Indeed, the Audit Commission’s Social Services Research Unit at the London School report Under Pressure, released last week, said: of Economics, using its micro-simulation package for older people, with additional analysis by Department “There are huge financial pressures on councils in the years ahead, but redesigning services and exploiting technology can of Health analysts. We are confident about the accuracy make them better, more efficient and more personal”. of these estimates. The report found that the longer people can stay at home, the happier they are and the less they cost the Lord Lipsey: May I please interrupt the Minister? It taxpayer. Innovative, personalised services mean that might save the Committee a lot of time if she would older people stay independent longer and save public agree to publish a full account of those calculations by money in the long run. Members of the Committee the PSSRU and the department, so we can all take a have conflated two issues as regards savings. Indeed, view on them. savings are to be gained in the long run by keeping people out of homes and independent; there is no Baroness Thornton: I will certainly look into ensuring question about that. However, those savings will not that those calculations are published as far as they can fund this scheme in the next two years; 4 per cent of be. I thought that they already had been. local authority spend—which is what local authorities 899 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 900 are committed to save through efficiencies—is 4 per Amendment 47, which would require an independent cent of almost £100 billion. Therefore, it seems to me review of the costs of delivering free personal care that meeting the costs of this scheme within those within six months of the Bill coming into force, we savings is entirely within the capabilities of local think that our 12 to 18 month review will be more government. meaningful and that we will be able to reconsider the We cannot accept Amendment 38. The current predicted costs and how the scheme is working at that position under Section 15 of the Community Care point. We think that six months is too short a period (Delayed Discharges etc.) Act 2003 is that regulations for a meaningful review to be undertaken and I ask made by the Secretary of State are subject to the her not to press her amendment. negative resolution procedure. Despite the impassioned plea from my noble friend on this issue, we listened to 9.15 pm what the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Lord Best: My Lords, I am grateful for the support Committee had to say about the matter. On 22 January from all round the Committee for the amendments in this year, the committee reported: my name. There was possibly more robust support for “There is nothing in the Bill to which we wish to draw the some of the amendments in the names of others. The attention of the House”. two parts of the group of amendments are really We have made available a working draft of the regulations. about the same things: they are about delaying the If at all possible, we intend to publish the Government’s moment of implementation of this and about reviewing response to the consultation when the Bill reaches its the costs. On Report, we will need to be clear about next stage; in other words, at the earliest opportunity. which parts of these amendments are best taken forward. Noble Lords will know that I will keep them informed However, at this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the and make that available as soon as I am able to do so. amendment. Amendment 44 would require the Secretary of State to commission an independent review of the costs of Amendment 17 withdrawn. delivering personal care each year, the estimated costs of delivery in the next five years, the savings made from decreased use of residential care each year and Amendment 18 the estimated savings in the next five years. It would Moved by Baroness Barker require an annual report to Parliament of this information. In the impact assessment for the Bill we have committed 18: Clause 1, page 1, line 22, at end insert— to reviewing the implementation of free personal care “( ) specify that the assessment of the person in need of assistance with personal care should not be prejudiced within the first 12 to 18 months of the policy coming by whether a carer is willing or able to provide care; into force. After this review it will be possible to ( ) allow for any “qualifying service” to be any service which reconsider the predicted costs of delivering free personal meets any need of the person who requires assistance care and the conditions for eligibility if necessary. If with personal care” our costings for the first year prove to be accurate, it would seem to be an unnecessary burden on local authorities to have to produce data to enable the Baroness Barker: My Lords, at Second Reading a Secretary of State to report to Parliament annually on number of noble Lords talked about the position of this matter. Such a report would require a much carers, the position of carers in relation to assessment greater volume of data collection by local authorities of need and the position of carers in relation to their than we had envisaged. capacity to implement care plans and the way in which those two factors are often confused by local authority Amendment 45 seeks to delay the commencement staff carrying out assessments of people’s eligibility of the provisions within the Bill until a review of their for services. This amendment addresses those two affordability has been carried out and reported to critical issues which determine whether or not many Parliament. Such a report would achieve nothing because people are deemed eligible for free personal care. The the Bill’s provisions themselves simply concern the first part of this amendment would ensure that somebody enabling powers for regulations on free personal care, who is in need of personal care is fully and properly not the substantive provisions on free personal care assessed and is given a choice over the type of service themselves, which would include the circumstances in that they may be given. which free personal care is to be provided. It seems to me that the review at 12 to 18 months would deal with There have been frequent references to Scotland. that issue also. This is one of the areas on which the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, and I have more profound differences than we Amendment 46 is another attempt to delay the do on many others. The evidence from Scotland—from coming into force of the Bill and the provision of free a Joseph Rowntree Foundation-funded study—is not personal care to those who need it. The Delegated that carers have abandoned the people they care for; Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has examined they have not given up caring for their relatives. They the memorandum which we sent it and which reflects have, in a number of cases, changed what they do in our views on the appropriate level of parliamentary order to make sure that life is more bearable for them scrutiny for any secondary legislation that is to be and for the older people, and I think that that is an made under Section 15 of the 2003 Act. entirely right thing to do. This part of the amendment, Finally, the answer to the question from the noble building on that experience, is absolutely clear that the Baroness, Lady Barker, is one—one of the criteria of presence of a carer should not be taken as part of an the FACS list which she read out. As for her assumption about somebody’s eligibility. 901 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 902

[BARONESS BARKER] nature, history and quality of that relationship should The second part is about qualifying services. At the always be taken into account before any assumptions heart of the Bill is something that we all know to be are made about a family’s willingness to care. fundamentally out of step with the way in which many older people and their relatives now think. Their lives Earl Howe: My Lords, Amendments 22 and 41 in are very different from the lives of people when personal my name are grouped here. I echo a great deal of what care at home was originally conceived. Many more the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said. I also take fully people now work full-time or part-time. on board the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady The purpose of this part of the amendment is to Pitkeathley. However, the amendment of the noble enable people to be more imaginative in finding services Baroness, Lady Barker, is not quite right because it is that meet their needs. I was struck by what the noble ambiguous. Before a person can be deemed eligible to Baroness, Lady Murphy, said about one particular receive free personal care at home there are three group of carers: spouses, usually the wives of older assessments which he or she must undergo. The first is men, who do not have any choice about whether they an initial assessment that will usually be the precursor care for their husbands. There is an assumption that to a course of intensive reablement. The second is a they will, even though they might themselves be frail community care assessment designed to identify the and have a number of health difficulties. Often, those range of the person’s needs and what level of banding carers can perform personal care tasks but need help they fall into under the FACS definitions. The outcome with other things to enable them to care for somebody of that assessment will in part be influenced by the with whom they have spent their lives. Having somebody result of the reablement exercise. Anyone placed in the come and do the washing or the housework once a highest FACS banding, “critical”, would be assessed week enables them to carry on with the task of delivering on the number of activities of daily living for which personal care. Many older people who are cared for do they required personal care to be delivered to them by not want personal care to be delivered by a stranger; social services. but in order for that to happen, their carer must be In practice, as I understand it, the second and third supported. assessment legs will often be rolled into one. However, The amendment probes the extent to which, first, a for decision-making purposes they are quite separate. carer’s existence is not taken into account as part of The single assessment tool which the Government are the assessment of eligibility; and, secondly, how bringing forward will be designed to inject national imaginative and free local authorities can be, working consistency into the assessment of need—in other in partnership with service users and carers, in words, whether a person’s needs are critical, substantial, understanding the context in which personal care happens, moderate or low. It will not be able to take account of and what the service needs may be, even though that the particular living conditions in which the person service need may not be personal care itself but something finds himself. that allows personal care to be delivered by somebody To take a simple example, a man whose needs are else. I beg to move. assessed as critical may need help with four activities of daily living if he is living in a house with stairs. If he Baroness Pitkeathley: My Lords, there is no doubt then moves to a bungalow his needs will remain critical that most families want to provide care for their elderly under the national assessment process but he may only and disabled relatives, and there is no sign of that require assistance with three ADLs. This means that willingness diminishing. As the noble Baroness, Lady complete portability of benefits, which, in the abstract, Barker, rightly said, there has been no sign in Scotland many of us are keen on, cannot be delivered because it of carers abandoning their relatives because free personal will always be necessary to assess someone by reference care is available. However, it is important that we do to their actual living conditions. So the noble Baroness’s not wrongly assume that family members are willing amendment is flawed because it fails to draw a distinction and able to provide care; or that the care would be between the single assessment to be carried out under sustainable if it were imposed on family members at a national criteria and the assessment of eligibility for particular time. If you do that, you will often force personal care which depends on the person’s individual families to give up work, putting at risk their own circumstances and is a matter for the local authority health and their financial future. Therefore, you will concerned. possibly end up with more people being a charge on The question is whether the presence or absence of the state, or needing residential care or home care, a carer should have any relevance in the various processes than would otherwise be the case. of assessment. My own view—and I hope the Minister Some local authorities’ self-assessment forms for will confirm this—is that in the assessment of a person’s disabled people ask whether any of their care is being overall level of need, which is what the national assessment provided by a family member or friend. So far so good; tool will be used for, the presence or otherwise of a but they then do not include a provision to check with carer has no relevance or bearing whatever. The level that person whether they are willing or able to provide of someone’s need is their level of need. However, the care. I remind noble Lords that that goes against when it comes to that person’s entitlement to personal current legislation such as the Carers (Recognition care, whether free or paid for, it could well be that the and Services) Act and the Carers and Disabled Children presence of an unpaid carer affects the person’s eligibility Act. It also raises issues under the Human Rights Act. for some elements of personal care. I seek an assurance from the Minister that she agrees For instance, if an unpaid carer were able and that we should always remember that caring takes willing to supervise a person taking their prescribed place within an existing relationship, and that the medicines at certain times of day and the person 903 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 904 himself was happy with that, there is no good reason for FACS are being developed by the Social Care for social services to assume responsibility for this Institute for Excellence to help frontline staff and task. So when deciding on someone’s eligibility to their managers apply the criteria in a more consistent receive free personal care it is not unreasonable to take way. These will be available in early April. account of any assistance which can readily be provided In relation to Amendment 18, I wish to stress that it by an unpaid carer. On the other hand, we do not want is important that we properly reflect the role of carers, to see situations arising in which unpaid carers are as outlined by my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley. At unfairly exploited. Local authorities should not be this point, I wish to pay tribute to the work that able to impose unreasonable demands on carers as a unpaid carers are doing up and down the country day way of avoiding their legal obligations to provide in and day out. It is also important, as the noble personal care. After all—and the noble Baroness, Lady Baroness, Lady Barker, pointed out, that we make Barker, effectively made this point—it is often when sure when undertaking assessments that the role of a carers feel that they can no longer cope with looking carer is not taken into account inappropriately. So, for after somebody on their own that local authorities are example, when undertaking assessments, professionals requested to provide help. should seek to establish whether a person can carry To what extent are would-be service-users entitled out a particular task such as washing or bathing, and to insist that their eligibility to receive personal care in that they are assessed on their own ability to do that, the home should take no account of whether a carer is not the ability of the carer to assist them. Taking into willing and able to provide help with activities of daily account a carer’s role to a greater extent could inadvertently living? This seems to be quite a difficult question affect the outcome of the assessment for eligibility for because, if, as I believe, there is a difference between free personal care. However, while I recognise the reasonably relying on a carer and unreasonable sentiment expressed in this amendment, we are committed exploitation of that same carer, there is at the same to addressing this issue in statutory guidance. I therefore time no obvious or easy way of making that distinction do not consider it necessary to have this on the face of clear in regulations or guidance. the Bill, although clearly we will need to discuss the issue further as the guidance unfolds. 9.30 pm I turn to the point raised by the noble Baroness about “qualifying services”. Section 15 defines qualifying Baroness Thornton: I take this opportunity to recognise services as a range of services provided under community the key role played by carers in supporting family care legislation. This amendment would seek to extend networks with health and social care needs. The National the range of services provided free to any services Carers Strategy includes a 10-year vision for carers, a needed by a person in receipt of personal care, not just commitment to move carers’ issues to the “centre of services to meet their personal care needs. This would family policy”, and to reflect this by promoting the be uncertain and beyond the policy, which is limited to concept of whole family care planning following separate personal care for those in the highest need. assessment. Undertaking effective carers’ assessments is a key part of making this a reality. But while we will Amendment 22 aims to ensure that regulations may continue to rely on carers to contribute to the wider specify the extent to which a carer’s practical assistance package of care, we do not want to place unreasonable can be taken into account when determining an caring burdens on them. individual’s eligibility for free personal care. We will be setting out the assessment process for deciding whether The planned White Paper is addressing longer-term or not an individual is eligible for free personal care in issues, and it may have future implications for the way statutory guidance and, as I have said, we will also be that social care is delivered. However, given that any providing local authorities with a national assessment fundamental system reform is unlikely to take place tool to help them make this judgment. The revised for some time, we have recently consulted on revised FACS guidance sets out how local authorities should FACS guidance which will be published shortly in take into account the practical support of a carer recognition that more immediate action can be taken when they are carrying out a community care assessment to improve the current system. Compared with the and judging which FACS band an individual sits within, previous guidance, the new FACS guidance will address based on their level of risk. The additional assessment the key role that carers can play in meeting people’s of personal care needs which will determine eligibility care needs and how their needs can be addressed at the based on requiring significant help or prompting to same time if they are to continue in their caring role. carry out four or more of the activities of daily living In determining an individual’s eligibility for care, account will, as I have already said, be carer blind. will be taken of the input that the carer is able and willing to make. In that sense, it will not be “carer Finally, I note that Amendment 41 is consequential blind”, nor should it be, but this will help to establish on the other amendments tabled by the noble Earl, whether someone is in the highest band for help with Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of social care—FACS critical. For those with critical Bolton, which use the term “carer”, and is only necessary needs, the assessment for personal care will be based if these amendments are passed. In itself, the proposed on activities of daily living and that will be carer blind, definition of “carer”—that which is set out in the focusing only on what the individual themselves can Carers and Disabled Children Act 2000—is or cannot do. That might be the opposite way around unobjectionable. However, since those amendments to from how it was related by the noble Earl. I think I will which Amendment 41 is consequential are being resisted, check on that, but the Box tells me that that is what this amendment should also be resisted; I ask the this says. A practice guide and online learning tools noble Earl to withdraw it. 905 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 906

Earl Howe: My Lords, before the noble Baroness, not, and that is because in the regulations to be laid Lady Barker, decides what to do with her amendment, under the Bill personal care and activities of daily may I ask the Minister whether she and her officials living will be carefully defined in ways which exclude a can spare me some time between now and Report whole range of important personal care activities. For stage? It is quite clear that I have come at this subject example, cleaning, laundry and driving someone to from a completely different angle from the Minister. I the doctor are services for which a charge will continue may have done so with less than credible logic on my to be made. To some people that will not come as a side, but I am slightly surprised by the answer she has welcome piece of news; to others it will simply be given, even though I am very grateful for it. It is clear confusing. that the Government have done a great deal of thinking The issue of potential public disappointment and about this, and I probably need to be briefed on that discontent is wider than this because, whenever lines thinking. in the sand are drawn and definitions set in stone, someone will always end up on the wrong side of one Baroness Thornton: I am happy to do that. Having or other of them. The difference between someone worked opposite the noble Earl for the past two years, having care needs that are substantial and care needs I think it is worth us having a discussion about how we that are critical is often quite small. The difference have got completely different views on how this works. between needing help with an activity of daily living and needing significant help with that activity can be Baroness Barker: I thank the noble Baroness for her equally tenuous and is often quite subjective. What is characteristically comprehensive and thorough response meant by “significant”? It could be a significant amount to the amendments tabled by myself and the noble of help or it could be help which achieves a significant Earl. It would be extremely helpful if there was a result. Neither the regulations nor the current guidance briefing for all Peers on this matter. This is a critical provide clear and simple answers to these key questions element to the whole of this Bill, and the place of of eligibility. carers is critical to the whole of social care. If there is The scope for disputes between local authorities confusion about this here and now, it needs to be and service users will be much greater than it is at the clarified. Believe me, by the time it works its way down moment because much more will be at stake. A lawyer to the frontline of a social services department for an who deals in this field of the law said to me that he assessment, there will be major confusion, and people knew solicitors who were rubbing their hands in will lose out on entitlements which to them are quite anticipation of dealing with the litigation that lies often the difference between managing and not managing, ahead. Let me make clear that I repeat that remark and getting by with dignity. I am very grateful to the with no relish whatever. Disputes and litigation will be noble Baroness, but it would be helpful if she would a tremendous distraction for all concerned, other than clarify this matter for everybody concerned. I beg the lawyers, and a waste of resources. However, it leave to withdraw the amendment. looks like coming about because the Government have Amendment 18 withdrawn. rushed at this policy and have not allowed themselves and everyone else to make sure that it is deliverable without unintended adverse consequences. Amendment 19 The Equality and Human Rights Commission and Moved by Earl Howe a number of other organisations have questioned the 19: Clause 1, page 1, line 22, at end insert— definition of personal care contained in the draft regulations. They have pointed out that the categories “( ) specify the meaning of “personal care” for the purposes of this section” of personal care listed do not dovetail with the six categories of activities of daily living. For instance, Earl Howe: My Lords, Amendment 19 is intended the definition of personal care makes no reference to as a means of raising a series of questions to the helping people with mobility problems, or managing Minister about the kind of personal care which will and monitoring medication, or basic food preparation, and will not be covered by the free care at home policy. even though these things feature in the activities of daily living. What is the reason for that mismatch? It is often the way in politics that Governments Should not the draft regulations be clearer about what receive no thanks at all for the good things they do. is intended? I beg to move. Here, I think we have on our hands the potential for good intentions to bounce back in Ministers’ faces. The way the Government are setting up this scheme is, Lord Best: My Lords, I speak to Amendment 32 in I am afraid, bound to lead to disappointed expectations this group, which might be called the housing amendment on quite a large scale. They have led the public to think as that is what it covers. Alongside social care and that people who have been through a reablement process, health, housing represents the equally important third and whose needs are assessed as critical, will be eligible leg of the stool; without the housing leg the stool falls to receive free personal care at home—we know that is over. It is no good assessing an individual’s personal not so. Free care will only be available to those in care needs and switching funds from health to pay for critical need who require significant assistance with personal care if the critical problem is the unsuitability four or more activities of daily living. So then, is it of that person’s home. You cannot discharge someone correct that someone whose needs are critical and who from hospital safely if the fall that they are recovering requires significant assistance with four or more activities from is likely to recur when they get back to the unsafe of daily living will be eligible for free personal care in premises that they came from: if they cannot get up the home? They may but, on the other hand, they may the front steps; if they cannot get upstairs to the 907 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 908 bathroom; if they need assistance in the home; if it is not leave any room for the aids and adaptations that freezing cold. These are all ways in which the property one would hope to see as part of a package providing may make someone a prisoner within it or debar the support that older people are going to need. someone from living there and force them into residential care. Baroness Greengross: I rise to speak to Amendment 33. I want to speak particularly about people suffering from dementia. There is quite a concern that many 9.45 pm people with dementia will not meet the four ADLs or This amendment calls first for an assessment of the the critical criteria for an inability to carry out vital individual’s eligibility for free care to have alongside it personal care or domestic routines, as described, despite an assessment of the suitability of the home for that having a substantial level of need. That is obvious individual to receive their personal care. This would when one thinks about the symptoms of dementia in do the joining-up which the noble Baroness, Lady its various forms. Your Lordships will recognise that Andrews, as Minister, did so helpfully in the government one of the key reasons for this is that many people report, Lifetime Homes, Lifetime Neighbourhoods: A with dementia find that they can carry out some National Strategy for Housing in an Ageing Society.It personal care routines with various degrees of difficulty, also builds on the new report from the audit commission, but only when they are prompted by care staff or Under Pressure, which explains that money is extremely carers. Providing personal care to someone with dementia well spent on the home in preventing people from is often very different from providing care for a frail requiring more care or a move into a residential older person, because the person with dementia can establishment. easily become confused and distressed and very often We may well argue that it is the extra-care housing resists the essential care that he or she needs. that the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, referred to Careful prompting and supervision play a critical earlier that is the ideal, or retirement villages and role in the care of many such people. There are all retirement communities, but these will serve only a sorts of things that they can do—they are very simple very small minority of people. For the great majority, things when you are well—such as swallowing medication, it will be aids and adaptations to their existing chewing properly, preparing food for themselves, washing accommodation that will mean that care can be provided properly, and dealing with and maintaining continence, safely, sensibly and happily within the home. if they are carefully prompted by trained people. The Perhaps I could just take a moment to give your amendment would ensure that dementia is recognised Lordships an illustration from my own life, as I suspect as the illness that it is. It is essential that it is inserted. I that a lot of other people will have similar stories hope that the Government take it seriously, so that the surrounding their lives as well. After Christmas, I had supervision and prompting that are necessary can be an elderly relative move into residential care. She was provided. not actually receiving any formal care and was getting very little informal care in her own home, being a Baroness Barker: I shall speak to Amendments 37 fiercely independent woman, but it was the house that and 42, which stand in my name. I am pleased, as drove her out and required her to move into expensive always, to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. residential care. It was just unsuitable. It was a cold It is fitting that I, too, want to talk about people with house and one with steps in every possible direction— dementia and the importance of having staff who are upstairs, downstairs and all around. She is suffering trained and who understand the nature of dementia in from quite severe arthritis, finding it extremely difficult the delivery of services. to get around and to turn the taps. There are no grab I used to have an office whose window looked rails on the walls. I could see the expenditure that across the street. Twice a week, a little van would turn might do the trick, but it is too late as she has gone up from social services. A lady would get out and ring into residential care. The real problem that she faced the door of a house that was divided into flats. She was a housing problem, even though she now finds would wait for quite a while while the gentleman herself in an institution, receiving expensive care. I inside came to answer. All the time, she would continue think this joining-up of housing with health and social to talk to the driver of the van. When the gentleman care is an underlying principle that this piece of legislation came to the door, she would hand him his package of with its words “personal care at home” should embrace. dinner while continuing to talk to the driver. She I recognise that this is something of a probing would then turn around and walk away. That gentleman amendment. I would argue for more funding for the had dementia. She did not even know whether he ate disabled facilities grant programme, which is very that dinner, fed it to his dog or threw it in the bin. She underfunded, and more resources for the home had no idea of what his life was like inside his house. It improvement agencies, such as Care and Repair. Money was the absolute epitome of a service being delivered can be so well spent in housing in its relationship to so badly and so wrongly for somebody who had care within the measures enshrined in this legislation. dementia. I would hope that that sort of thing would I understand that it is in the reablement section that not be so common these days, but who knows? Hard- one finds the opportunity for some funds for aids and pressed staff might find themselves in a similar position. adaptations to people’s homes, including telecare censors I wanted to table the amendment because it is and alarm systems that can alert care providers elsewhere. important that we remind ourselves that we are talking However, on looking at the numbers, I note that the in this Bill about two very distinct groups of people. funding for reablement at £130 million for 130,000 There are adults with disabilities who for the most people at £1,000 per head, based on 30 hours at part will have conditions which are life-long and stable. £30 per hour with £100 to spare for little extras, does Their needs may change, but probably not much over 909 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 910

[BARONESS BARKER] of this. I echo the point made by the noble Baroness, time. We are talking also about older people whose Lady Greengross, that prompting somebody to do conditions can change quite rapidly, and older people that must be one of the areas of personal care. whose conditions might be limiting and long-term, and change gradually. Their needs are very different. I hesitate to say it in front of the noble Baroness, Lady Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I strongly Murphy, but, in lay terms, the needs of people with support Amendments 32, 33, 37 and 42. I was very dementia can change. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, interested in the comments of the noble Baroness, was absolutely right: the distinction between substantial Lady Greengross, who knows so much about dementia; need and critical need is very difficult to determine, her remarks were very sad. Amendment 37, tabled the particularly when people have fluctuating needs. noble Baroness, Lady Barker, also deals with dementia. It is important that there should be special provision When speaking to an earlier group of amendments, for dementia, because there has to be recognition that I asked the Minister how many of the FACS-critical people suffering from dementia have different criteria one would have to meet. Those criteria include: requirements. ““Life is, or will be, threatened”. I like the way in which Amendment 42, tabled by That is a comparatively easy thing for a member of the noble Baroness, set out a great catalogue of things— staff or an assessor to find out. However, there is also that is practical. I am not sure, however—I am only the criterion that: speaking from my past experience of Bills in this “There is, or will be, an inability to carry out vital personal House—about that approach. Usually, when someone care or domestic routines”. sets out a provision listing everything that one could Is that so clear and easy to determine, and are the possibly think of, someone else says “Oh no, you consequences of it so great? Therefore, I tabled this should not make it like that, because there will be amendment and Amendment 42, which is similar to other things that you have not thought of, so you that of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, to determine should put it in some other way to cover that”. Moreover, exactly what is meant by personal care. There is, as there should perhaps be a code of practice or something noble Lords are aware, no definition of personal care like that, which would include all of those things—this in primary legislation in England. As several noble might not be completely appropriate even for a schedule. Lords have already spotted, the definition in this However, it is right that people should view those amendment is the definition in the Scottish legislation topics that she has listed there. from the Community Care and Health (Scotland) Act 2002, as amended in 2009. The significant amendment 10 pm in 2009 was the consideration of the preparation of Having made those comments, though, I want to food. When looking at an amendment such as this, it is say that I really stood to support the noble Lord, Lord perhaps very easy to dismiss as insignificant each Best, on the provision of appliances and adaptations individual sub-clause of each individual part. However, in a home. I repeat my comments from Second Reading: in terms of the life of a person who is likely to be it is important that if a home is completely unsuitable eligible for free personal care—and for their carers—each and cannot be adapted in the way that he described for and every one of these small things is an extremely that elderly relative of his, then other housing should important part of life. be available. Going right back to my social services The Government have always resisted having a days on the council, we were aware that housing, definition of personal care in primary legislation, and health and social services must be linked—a point that I am sure that they will do so now. I would be staggered has been made now—and until they were linked it was if they did not. However, one of the excuses that they pretty hopeless trying to run any of them, because have always run in the past is that putting a definition each was affected by the others. I strongly support the into primary legislation would by its very nature be point that has been made about linkage. exclusive and would probably be unworkable. In Scotland, The housing issue is wider than just this Bill. I read however, that has proven not to be the case; it has in this morning’s paper of some family that has lived proven that the lawyers, sadly, have not made that in a tiny flat for 12 years waiting for a house—or it much money from bringing cases to contend what is might have been five years, with an estimated wait of meant by an unclear definition. 12 years. Many people are looking for more space, and I also wish to echo the points made by the noble it should be possible to provide the ideal space for Earl, Lord Howe, that the definitions proposed in the older people in great need in order to free up some of Bill and in the regulations do not equate to the six this other space, particularly in terms of social housing, basic categories of activities of daily living. That is where large properties are often occupied. People cannot pretty well bound to cause confusion, if one is not be forced out of their houses but they should be being too generous. persuaded that there is merit in the idea of leaving. If As I did at Second Reading, I echo the point made an attractive alternative were available that was better by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. Help with the provision in health terms, I think that they would be willing to of medication is a critical part of life for these people, accept that. and it therefore seems to me that it is a major omission. The noble Lord’s relation opted for a home simply The prompting and supervision of people who have because that was the only thing available. I am sure dementia to do some of the personal care tasks of that if she had had the offer of a small self-contained which they are capable but which they cannot do if warden-covered area, she would have been very happy they are not prompted seems to me to be a critical part to accept that. As I have said, in other countries, and 911 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 912 to a certain extent in this country, people can buy units because of the flight of stairs that they hardly ever of special housing in the same way that, when they noticed going up and down each day. Sadly, many vacate them, the units must go on to someone else in noble Lords will have had the experience of finding special need. that the home they have lived in happily for many These are interesting amendments so, although they years with their partner suddenly becomes the major have come up so late in the day, I felt that I had to say barrier in helping them to care for that partner, when something about them. they become seriously ill. By chance, this Committee falls on the day that will Baroness Murphy: I strongly support the amendment no doubt always remain a significant anniversary in of the noble Lord, Lord Best. He is right about the my life, as it was 44 years ago today that I fell off a importance of the built environment in order to support carnival float and broke my neck. If my parents’ home people receiving appropriate care. had not been adapted to provide a bathroom and a bedroom downstairs, the amount of personal care The other amendments all go to the difficulties of which I would have needed would have been considerable, the definition of the problem and how it relates particularly and would then have been a continuing and recurring to people suffering from mental health problems in cost. The ODI report of 2007, Better Outcomes, Lower addition to physical health problems. Activities of Costs, by the University of Bristol, reviewed the evidence daily living were originally used to assess people’s of the implications for heath and social care budgets physical states. of investment in housing adaptations. It set out a wide It is not just dementia; dementia is merely the range of evidence and states: commonest and most obvious condition. Take, for “Adaptations that remove or reduce the need for daily visits example, an older person with a depressive illness or a pay for themselves in a time-span ranging from a few months to paranoid disorder who is not eating or drinking without three years and then produce annual savings. In the cases reviewed, help because of ongoing delusional beliefs about food—or, annual savings varied from £1,200 to £29,000 a year”. even commoner, a person with cerebrovascular disease Housing adaptations need to be an essential part of who apparently has nothing wrong with them at all this Bill and I very much hope the Minister will accept but sits all day and does nothing as the result of this amendment. profound motivational difficulties that are of cerebrovascular origin. The latter is a remarkably common Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, I want complaint from families: “Me mum seems all right but to support the probing in relation to housing and she doesn’t actually do anything, doctor”, is how it is dementia. I will say no more about it, other than that I usually described. hope it will continue. It is a devil of a job sometimes to get this right. I I will comment briefly, I promise, on Amendment 42. refer to attendance allowance because that has been I admire the thoroughness with which the noble Baroness, one of the great banes of the help that people have had Lady Barker, conducts herself in proceedings such as available to them. I worry that we will have a rigid this, but I wonder if she has perhaps gone a step too interpretation in the guidance that will make it easy to far in this amendment. Despite the fine provenance tick boxes and do the assessment, but will not be that she quotes for much of the material, there will sensitive enough. So much will depend upon it. If we inevitably be gaps—for example, there is no mention are going to have a dividing line between three ADLs, of insulin injections, which some would regard as four ADLs and five ADLS, we have to be sure that this fundamental. I do not want to see that added to the is a sensitive way of assessing people and that people list; I am just making the point that there will always have clear guidance. Personally, I think it will be a be gaps if you make a list. I would prefer a series of nightmare to make decisions of this nature. We should general points that have to be covered. have some sort of definition in the Bill, and I support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I will reply to the and the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady group which comprises Amendments 19, 32, 33, 37 Greengross, and her intention to get some support for and 42. I have taken out about two-thirds of my notes people with more difficult assessment problems. because I am conscious of the time, so if I seem a bit truncated that is because I am. Baroness Wilkins: My Lords, I will be brief. I strongly I start by saying that the proposals in this Bill are support Amendment 32, in the name of the noble for England and are not the same as they are in Lord, Lord Best, which would ensure that home Scotland. In Scotland they offer a much different adaptations are effectively integrated into the new free system, which is about the provision of full care free of personal care arrangements. charge, not personal care, as we are proposing, which As the Government made clear in their excellent is a much more targeted approach. strategy report, Lifetime Homes, Lifetime Neighbourhoods, The Government entirely agree that a range of housing adaptations are an essential component of services and support needs to be available to help the triangle of support, with heath and social care, in people to maintain their independence and, crucially, enabling people to remain living independently in to help prevent their care needs from increasing. We their own homes, a point that has been made by a know, for instance, that an older person who is losing number of noble Lords. Many noble Lords will have some of their mobility, but is otherwise capable of had the experience of breaking their leg or their ankle looking after themselves, can be helped by the provision and finding how difficult it suddenly becomes to do of home adaptations to continue living independently the basic essentials of washing and going to the loo in their own home. 913 Personal Care at Home Bill[LORDS] Personal Care at Home Bill 914

[BARONESS THORNTON] to think more broadly about the type and range of As well as these sorts of adaptations, early intervention support that they should provide. The second part of and support services, such as balance training to help the amendment refers to the need for personal care to someone recovering from a fall, are known to be a include the provision of aids and adaptations. I think I worthwhile investment which both helps people to get mentioned our view on this in my previous remarks on back on their feet and continue living independently, this amendment. We agree with the noble Lord. and saves money in terms of preventing admissions or I turn now to Amendment 33. In the draft regulations, readmissions to hospital or residential care. which we have made available to Peers, we have set out We know that prevention and early intervention are the eligibility criteria which we propose will determine not only good for people but make absolute economic who has the highest care needs and will qualify for free sense. However, we are not starting from scratch. The personal care. Our proposals require that, to be counted Government have been promoting and supporting this as having the highest needs, a person must first be approach in a variety of ways. In the Putting People within the Fair Access to Care “critical” band, and—as First programme we defined prevention as one of the we have proposed and already discussed—need significant essential elements of what a transformed social care help when prompted to carry out four or more activities service for adults would look like. We have given local of daily living. The noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, authorities more than £500 million to support that is rightly concerned that any assessment of a person’s transformation and, all around the country, have been ability to carry out activities of daily living should be developing preventive services to support people’s able to capture whether they have difficulty because independence. Where this involves adaptations to the they need prompting in addition to any physical difficulty home, it is often done in partnership with housing that they have. I reassure the noble Baroness and the providers, who can draw on disabled facilities grants. noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who voiced their concerns The allocations for 2010-11 will be announced shortly. on this matter, that, as part of our wider discussions We have also specifically promoted the development with stakeholders, the regulations will need to cover of telecare and other technologies through the £80 million supervision and prompting in relation to daily activities preventive technologies grant made some years ago. as part of the eligibility criteria. On top of this, the Bill offers further support for Amendment 37 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady reablement services, which include home adaptations Barker, would insert a requirement for local authorities and technologies. We are not just talking about the to ensure that staff have an “understanding of dementia” amount of money allocated by the activities of this when delivering personal care to those with a dementia Bill, but about building on other resources which are diagnosis. The noble Baroness and the House will already available for adaptations to people’s homes. know that the Government have already taken major Amendment 19, moved by the noble Earl, Lord steps to transform the quality of care for those with Howe, seeks to insert a power for the definition of dementia through our strategy and through the start personal care to be included in the regulations. Of we have made in building on that strategy. course, the noble Earl is right: it is necessary that we Section 15 of the Community Care (Delayed clarify our definition of personal care but it is not Discharges etc.) Act 2003, which the Bill amends, is necessary to do so in the Bill. The definition is in the about the free provision of services and not about working draft, which reflects our current thinking. It particular types of service provision. The guidance may be subject to change following the close of the accompanying the regulations enabled by the Bill will stakeholder consultation tomorrow and our review of need to consider how local authorities may best ensure the responses. I ask the noble Earl to withdraw his the delivery of free personal social care at home and amendment on the basis that we will include a definition ensure that it takes into account the Dementia Strategy. of personal care in regulations, as indicated in the We think it is unsuitable to place this in the Bill, but we current working draft. completely take on board the concern raised by the Amendment 32, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Greengross, Best, raises several different issues. The first part of on this issue. We are absolutely in sympathy with it. the amendment would require regulations to give local Amendment 42 by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, authorities the power to assess the suitability of an inserts the definition of personal care into the Bill. As individual’s home for independent living where they I have already said, the definition of personal care is have been determined to be eligible to receive free included in the consultation document which is currently personal care at home. Clearly, it is important that, open for comment. We have been working with while many people wish to stay in their homes for as stakeholders to ensure that this definition is accurate long as possible, they should not be living in an and appropriate and meeting the Bill’s aim of providing inappropriate setting. We would expect councils to personal care to those with the highest needs. Following look at the impact that suitable alternative housing or our analysis of that consultation we will look to adaptation would have on helping to keep people in amend the definition of personal care that we have set their homes. We completely agree with the noble Lord out in our working draft. However, we do not believe about both the importance of housing and the necessity it is appropriate to put this in the Bill. We ask the of including it in the assessment. We would expect noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment. local authorities to check whether there are any needs that could be helped by aids and adaptations or additional services when they carry out their community care Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, will the assessment. That is one of the reasons why we include Minister confirm that the Bill covers Wales? I do not reablement in these proposals—to encourage councils want it to feel left out, as she did not mention it. 915 Personal Care at Home Bill[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Personal Care at Home Bill 916

Baroness Thornton: No, it does not cover Wales. I very much the Minister will continue to bear strongly can write to the noble Baroness about what bits are in mind as the policy is developed in the department. I covered where and what Wales is doing. It is not that also thought that the noble Lord, Lord Best, spoke Wales is not taking action in this regard. I do not have extremely cogently to his amendment on aids and the brief in front of me but I know that it is and I am adaptations, which I fully support. I did not say so very happy to write to the noble Baroness and other earlier as he had not yet risen to his feet. I take the Members of the Committee about what Wales is doing opportunity of doing so now. It may be that we shall in this regard. come back to these matters at a later stage but I think for now it is appropriate for me to beg leave to withdraw Earl Howe: My Lords, I would like to feel that those my amendment. noble Lords who spoke so very ably to their individual amendments will be reassured by the noble Baroness’s Amendment 19 withdrawn. answer, which I appreciated. This debate has shown the difficulty of enshrining in the Bill, or in regulations Amendment 20 not moved. or in guidance, exactly what you want people to do. I was particularly swayed by the speeches of the House resumed. noble Baronesses, Lady Greengross and Lady Barker, in relation to dementia. They made points that I hope House adjourned at 10.19 pm.

GC 193 Arrangement of Business[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Media: Local and Regional Newspapers GC 194

precipitous fall in advertising, the expansion of the Grand Committee internet and online advertising, the increase in local Monday, 22 February 2010. councils publishing their own quasi-local papers, and finally the competition from local radio and TV,including Arrangement of Business the BBC’s sometimes clumsy encroachment on traditional local newspaper territory, have all combined to undermine Announcement our local papers’ future viability. The Newspaper Society offers a more sanguine 3.30 pm view, asserting that print readership has remained The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Brougham remarkably stable. It rightly points out that local and Vaux): My Lords, it has been agreed that, should newspapers will have a crucial role in encouraging any of the Questions for Short Debate not run for digital Britain’s development within the new, multimedia their allotted time this afternoon, the Committee will landscape. In this fast-changing panorama, do the adjourn during pleasure until the end of the allocated Government have a role in not only promoting the hour. Therefore, each of the Questions for Short Debate independence, reliability and viability of local news, will start at half past the hour. If there is a Division in but also supporting and perhaps funding the traditional the House, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes values of local and regional newspapers while encouraging and, if necessary, time can be added on to the time for fresh and innovative thinking on the role of the local the Question for Short Debate. press? The pivotal Digital Britain report published last June by my noble friend Lord Carter suggests that Media: Local and Regional Newspapers they have. I turn to the Government’s role and obligations. Question for Short Debate The Digital Britain review charts the accelerating and vertiginous 30 per cent fall in local advertising 3.31 pm revenues since 2008 for our local papers. Given that Asked By Lord Harrison advertising provides 80 per cent of those revenues, does my noble friend the Minister recognise the need To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment to staunch the haemorrhaging of such traditional they have made of the state of local and regional income while encouraging the discovery of new revenue newspapers. streams? Will he give guidance, for instance, to local Lord Harrison: My Lords, it is no wonder that the councils now producing in-house newspapers, financed most popular items in the 3 billion local newspapers by the council tax, which thereby undermine and read every week across Britain are the births, deaths undercut local newspapers? While local councils must and marriages column, followed by the letters page. communicate effectively with their electors, is my noble For the 80 per cent of us who still read our local friend nevertheless alarmed when local council papers newspaper, they are not just a source of information include not only factual information but regular news and news about what is happening in our local community, stories? They also siphon off valuable local advertising a sounding board for local views and gossip and a revenues from the private sector. Where do the public square for campaigns fought locally. A local Government draw the line? newspaper is also a companion that walks with us Secondly, will the Government continue to resist down our street when we leave our home for work, the the repeated proposals to remove the current law shops, the match or the pub. It arrives through the obliging statutory notices to be posted in the local front door and lies around the house for the next seven paper? Its abolition would imperil revenues, as well as days, like a next-door neighbour who is always ready depriving the local public of a trusted and familiar for a cup of tea and a chat. source for such notices. Local newspapers’ advertising For those of us in local politics—maybe all politics revenues have been further undermined by the downturn, is local—the local paper is the cornerstone of democracy. and are unlikely to be restored in the upturn. For It offers a fairer report of real hand-to-hand politics instance, local estate agents now typically pay only a that matters more to local people than ever do the tenth in fees to papers to advertise homes for sale. less-read national papers, cut off and isolated as they “For sale” signs are now found typically on the web, are in the overall hothouse atmosphere of the Westminster not in the paper. village. I certainly owe my political career to my local Will the Government also ensure that their own newspapers during my three decades on Cheshire County advertising in the local media is maintained, given the Council, in the European Parliament and in the House unparalleled reach and trust that the public have in of Lords. My only regret is that we in the Lords are their local newspaper? Moreover, the Government seldom asked to write newsy columns for our local should not neglect those of us older and less papers reporting the Lords, as once, as an MEP, I technologically adept, who are not part of the Gadarene reported the European Parliament to my local electorate. rush to the web and the internet. We, too, have a right Britain’s 1,300 local newspapers—an unsung national to be properly informed through the familiar channels. treasure—now face their own cycle of hatch, match Is my noble friend alarmed by the loss of experienced and dispatch, so I introduce this afternoon’s debate on journalists, formerly embedded in the community, the their future. Claire Enders, an acknowledged industry closure of high-street offices, the indifferent salary analyst, suggests that half of those 1,300 titles may structures and the redundant road blocks placed in the disappear in the next five years due to both cyclical path of trainees eager to enter this vital profession? and structural threats. Indeed, some 60 titles closed in One local editor explained to me the distinct advantage 2009, although most were just free weeklies. The of having his newspaper office visible in the high GC 195 Media: Local and Regional Newspapers[LORDS] Media: Local and Regional Newspapers GC 196

[LORD HARRISON] by the Guardian Media Trust? Should not media street, as well as having most of his journalistic staff organisations be required to sell on the names of titles living on the patch that they report. Cutting down on that they close down to such community trusts for a local offices saves money but deprives good reporters nominal fee, and should not a levy be exacted from of their vital contact with the news-giving public. The commercial operators that benefit from quality service sad result of all this is the temptation to report by content, including local news, but who have had no press release; it may save the expense of an experienced hand in its production? journalist but it impoverishes the trade of good journalism. This is an important debate, especially as an election Will the Government cast a cold eye over the standards draws near, where it is vital that the public gain the of training for entrance into the newspaper and media very best information that they can about a local industry? Some university courses are perhaps less candidate. As I say, I am not always sure that the than adequate, and placements in local newspapers, national media perform that function well as opposed which present the real learning curve for budding to local journalists. journalists, are drying up. Moreover, such placements Each and every one of us here could pencil in our are essential for trainee journalists to gain their seniority. own lives by reflecting on the different local newspapers Is my noble friend satisfied that we are laying down that we have had over the years. In my case, those were firm foundations for the next generation of young the Oxford Mail and Times, the Coventry Evening journalists, who should be well trained, paid and Telegraph, the Brighton Argus, the Hanley Sentinel, motivated to face the sharp challenges of this fast-changing the Manchester Evening News, the Chester Observer, industry? Does he support the NUJ’s call for direct Chester Chronicle and Chester Standard, the Wirral support for such training opportunities, and will he Globe and Wirral News, and even the Garstang Courier note that the tight funding in our local public institutions and the Lancashire Evening Post. also hampers local papers? Thus, overzealous I hope that this is a successful debate and I am very centralising of magistrates’ courts can stymie local grateful to the other noble Lords who are participating, newspapers’ ability to report local cases. An important but I feel that we are Stendhal’s happy few this afternoon. public function that they perform is not only that I wish that there were more of us to contribute to this justice is done but that it is seen to be done in the local important democratic debate. papers. Curtailing police resources presents similar problems and so it is, too, with local councils, which 3.43 pm sometimes shovel off public functions to non-transparent subsidiaries. For example, the former open local housing Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, I appreciate committees are being replaced by closed housing the opportunity to speak in this debate and I thank the associations. Will my noble friend attend to these noble Lord, Lord Harrison, for introducing it. He unfortunate restrictions on local newspapers in performing spoke of the local newspapers that he remembers; that their essential function of holding our public institutions point is where I would also like to start—not too far to democratic account? away from Chester, where the noble Lord lives at the moment, but about three-quarters of an hour away On a wider canvas, it is clear that the interpretation down the coast. of competition law has not kept up with the changing news media industry. While in the past the current We have seen such a reduction in the number of competition law worked to prevent unhealthy monopolies, local papers over the past 50 years. In my own area, it is becoming clear that unless we widen the notion of the weeklies then were the Conwy Free Press—that competition to include other forms of news media it went many years ago—the Llandudno Advertiser, which could result in some areas of Britain being deprived of others will perhaps remember, the Llandudno Circular a vibrant local newspaper. Bedworth, a town in the Press, the North Wales Pioneer and the North Wales Midlands, already lacks a local paper and, indeed, its Weekly News. Those were the local papers that were a own local radio. The Government should redefine talking point at that time. Then, we had the Daily Post competition law to allow other forms of local news and, apart from that, for a time the Liverpool Echo and media to be considered as rival competitors, even if the Manchester Evening News were also widely sold in that means that a “one town, one paper”policy becomes north Wales. The Western Mail tended to be, and I the norm. think still is, largely a south and mid-Wales paper, so we relied on both evening papers: the Manchester While we all revere the BBC, should we not ensure Evening News and the Liverpool Echo. that its local reach does not smother the local paper? The Comet Free Press and the Llandudno Circular Indeed, do we not need some different business models, Press were the first to go. They were small one-man as suggested in the Digital Economy Bill? Those include, ventures. The North Wales Pioneer and the North for example, developing teams of local journalists to Wales Chronicle were from the same stable. The North sell on their local newsgathering to the appropriate Wales Pioneer re-emerged as a freebie. The Llandudno local, regional and national outlets. In this model, the Advertiser merged with the North Wales Weekly News. BBC might buy in such services rather than wastefully Today, we have two weeklies: the free Pioneer and the duplicating them. Alternatively, tax breaks might be paid-for North Wales Weekly News. The Liverpool offered to local papers to perform functions under a Echo and the Manchester Evening News arrive a day public interest remit. late and, I believe—but I could be wrong—they sell Would the Government consider direct support to very few copies. The Welsh edition of the Daily Post help establish new and genuinely local media organisations, sells well, especially in Welsh-speaking areas. The whole including community trusts similar to the model developed scene for Welsh-language newspapers has changed. GC 197 Media: Local and Regional Newspapers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Media: Local and Regional Newspapers GC 198

We have lost many of the weeklies, but we now have However, like the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, I nearly 60 Welsh-language community papers throughout contend that local newspapers make an essential the whole of Wales: papurau bro. There are also some, contribution by providing news of what happens in not as extensive, English-language local community local communities. They are part of what holds a local papers, all run by volunteers. They keep the local spirit community together. You can even attack the stories. I alive. The Welsh Assembly Government fund Welsh have often heard people say, “Have you seen what the and English local papers. The effective news and comment front page of the Pioneer says this week?”; or “I don’t come from the Daily Post and the North Wales Weekly agree with the editorial comment in the North Wales News, which are owned by Trinity Mirror. The North Weekly News”. At least you can have a discussion. Wales Pioneer is independently owned. There is no Very rarely do you hear people discussing what appears real competition to the two sold newspapers, one of on the internet. The paper in our hand is vital. which is daily and the other weekly. Are local and regional newspapers tending to emulate The same is true in the rest of the United Kingdom. the format of the red-top national newspapers? I am I believe that 80 local newspapers closed last year. not sure that is welcome. No more do you get news of Hundreds of journalists have lost their jobs, photographers what the local Women’s Institute is doing or where the have lost their contracts and the high street offices Young Men’s Christian Association went last week on have closed. We have a debt to those companies that a trip. For a number of years, I was a local councillor have kept the flag flying and their newspapers alive, and, occasionally, a journalist used to attend our but it can be dangerous to have only one local paper. If debates. How many smaller council chambers now an extreme right-wing consortium took that paper have a journalist attending their debates? That is something over, it could be very bad news indeed, far worse than of the past, so local news is neglected. having to rely on Fox News and claiming that it gave The Assembly Member Joyce Watson says that, in us balanced news coverage. the late 1970s, the Tenby Observer was in difficulties. In 1890, in the old Caernarvon Boroughs constituency, To save itself, it was renamed the West Wales Observer, there were more than two local newspapers. That was reporting news from across the region. But that did the year of the by-election that returned Lloyd George not do the trick, so the Tindle group stepped in and to Westminster. If we had relied on Herald Newspapers stipulated that any story which did not mention Tenby of Castle Square, Caernarfon, we would have thought was not to be printed; it had to be a local newspaper. that Lloyd George was the Messiah. As a Liberal The result was that over a number of years the sales Democrat, I might say that he might well have been. have risen from 3,700 to more than 7,000. People want According to the paper, his victory procession was the local element. composed of all the most upright, honest, sober and Mention has been made of advertising revenue and chapel-going young men. The Tories were very different. how local council newspapers—freebies—are welcome, Songs were sung—I will not risk singing for the but how they use funds that could help to support Committee: local newspapers. We have to ask whether councils “Hurrah! Hurrah! We’re ready for the fray. need to print their own newspapers. Hurrah! Hurrah! We’ll drive Nanney away— It was put to me earlier that it is time to consider Ellis Jones Nanney— relaxing the regulations between the involvement of the printed media with, say, television and radio and The grand young man will triumph, other factors mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd George will win the day, Harrison. That might provide local newspapers with Fight for the victory of Cambria”. the additional support they need. Wonderful! It was not unbiased in any way at all. The Local and regional newspapers are vital for a thriving North Wales Chronicle, based in Bangor, redressed the and democratic society. However, they need to be truly balance with a Conservative anthem, but I do not local, reflecting the life in their communities, as intended. know the words. Steps also need to be taken to ensure that there is true If we had a monopoly of newspaper ownership, it competition because I would hate to think of some of would be a threat to democracy. The people who are the right-wing organisations taking over one of the able to help the weakest are those who have strength. newspaper groups. That could be disastrous. Would relatively prosperous newspaper companies, such as Trinity Mirror, take a lead on this issue and encourage competition and having two viable newspapers 3.52 pm serving a community? Lord Luke: My Lords, I, too, congratulate the We know that this is a difficult time and a time of noble Lord, Lord Harrison, on obtaining a debate on great change for the newspaper industry. We do not this very important issue. I also remember my early entirely rely on newspapers. We can choose not to buy years in local government and being terrified to see the a paper and to get all the news on the internet. I was chap sitting in the gallery watching and listening to astonished to learn of the decline in newspaper readership. every word and worrying that I would make a mess of Between April and September 2008, at the height of my speech. That was a long time ago. the American presidential election campaign, in the I do not wish to say too much about how important USA, there was an average decline in sales of 11 per local and regional newspapers are, but they are an cent and in some areas, it was as great as 22 per cent. essential public service of which we should be proud In recent months, sales of the San Francisco Chronicle and fiercely protective. At the moment, there is no declined by 25 per cent. The net is taking over. doubt that local newspapers are in crisis. Many believe GC 199 Media: Local and Regional Newspapers[LORDS] Media: Local and Regional Newspapers GC 200

[LORD LUKE] all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate that they are in the greatest crisis that the industry has and I congratulate my noble friend on raising such an ever faced. It has been estimated by one of the most important issue. I am glad that the importance of respected industry analysts that, at present, half the local media as regards local democracy and local country’s 1,300 local newspapers will be out of business representation was emphasised from all parts of the within the next five years. That is an extremely concerning Committee. There is no doubt that local and regional prediction. In many aspects, local newspapers are the newspapers lie at the heart of the democratic process. bedrock of the media industry. Much journalistic As my noble friend indicated, they are critical to the investigation and news content is collected by local expression and the opportunities for the expression of newspapers and filters up to national newspapers, to views on behalf of the community. radio, to online newspapers and even to television I listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts. and the BBC. It is very important that local papers I am not too sure that the 21st century can quite have the chance to continue their great and valuable replicate the circumstances which led to the emergence work. Furthermore, it is imperative for democracy of Lloyd George in north Wales. But I understand and local accountability that local and regional newspapers entirely the way in which he has supported my noble survive. friend Lord Harrison in emphasising the importance However, due to severe commercial pressures, such of the opportunity for expression from localities. It is as we have already heard today—for example, a decline not for us to comment on the other place in a significant in advertising revenues, reduced circulation, the emergence way, but there is one matter on which I think we take of online newssheets to name but a few—many papers public opinion with us and on which we can therefore have been forced to close altogether. Between January speak assertively and with some real concern; namely, 2008 and July 2009 alone, 66 local newspapers were that a greater number of candidates for national positions forced to close. But even where papers have not closed, as Members of Parliament should have local roots. their offices on the high street are being shut, the There is a great danger in having a preponderance of number of journalists employed is falling and the people—I speak as one who may have been guilty of number of photographers, as we have heard, is no this—who are mobile and able to present themselves longer the same. Between July 2008 and September across the country. A substantial percentage of the 2009, more than 900 journalists lost their jobs. Is the House of Commons ought to be represented by those Minister concerned that the decline in journalist positions who come from their local communities and can best will lead to a decline in applicants and specialist reflect their perspectives. That is at the heart of journalists, which will lead to a decline in the standards representation, and why the local media are important of journalism overall? What are the Government doing to the whole concept and health of our local democracy. to support local and regional newspapers so that they can keep standards high? Of course the Government share the anxieties that have been identified this afternoon. We certainly made In June 2009, the Digital Britain report acknowledged it clear in the Digital Britain White Paper that strong, the negative impact on independent local newspapers diverse and viable news media are integral to our of local authority newspapers. However, nothing concrete democratic life. A diminution of the regional and local has been done to investigate this. Does the Minister press affects the choice and plurality of information agree that an investigation needs to begin so that sources and editorial opinion, as well as the people solutions can be sought and enacted before more employed in the sector such as editors and journalists. damage is done? When will the Audit Commission, Ofcom, the Office of Fair Trading, and the Government I accept the point made by my noble friend Lord stop passing the buck and take some decisions? Does Harrison, and reinforced by the noble Lord, Lord the Minister believe that newspapers produced by Luke, about journalists’ training. There is no doubt, as councils should have to be clearly distinguishable from we know, that a significant proportion of those who commercial newspapers so that the public are not reach the high ranks in journalism in this country, misled as to the independence of the reporting? Is the particularly in political journalism, have done so through Minister concerned that if council-run papers replace the ranks of local reporting, so there is concern that if their independent counterparts, it will lead to a less those opportunities decline, the structure of training rigorous scrutiny of local officials at the price of and the development of skills in journalism will also democracy? Do the Government support council decline. I emphasise that the Government are concerned newspapers and have they any plans to tighten up the about this. There has been an inquiry into journalism local authority publicity code? skills and an expression of the need to examine those As I said earlier, it is tremendously important that skills and how they should be nurtured. There is no we see the decline in local news companies as a very doubt that this is an issue of real concern, and I am serious problem. Their influence is huge and their grateful to noble Lords who have emphasised the need likely disappearance will have much more dire in the case of the regional and local press. consequences than I think many appreciate. Like others, The Publishing Skills Council carried out a skills I look forward to the Minister’s response. survey last year that identified real gaps in training, which noble Lords have reflected in this debate. The skills sector has since produced an action plan that is 3.57 pm now being implemented, so I can say that the Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, have anticipated the concerns that have been reflected Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in this short debate and that action on the necessary (Lord Davies of Oldham): My Lords, I am grateful to training of journalists is in hand. GC 201 Media: Local and Regional Newspapers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Prisons: Howard League Commission GC 202

It is clear that there is real and significant pressure definitions properly reflect the current state of converged on local and regional newspapers at present. The media. The OFT has amended its guidance to ensure decline in advertising and in circulation is real and improved synergies between itself and Ofcom in their urgent. There are two factors. We cannot disregard the approach to media markets. We are concerned with recession and the fact that the decline in resources in increasing Ofcom’s sensitivity to the challenges to the our communities has an effect on the public’s purchasing industry. We are bringing forward at the earliest of newspapers as well as of other goods over which opportunity proposals to address media ownership people have a choice. The downturn in the economy rules. These proposals, which will of course be subject means that much less advertising is available to support to scrutiny by both Houses, follow Ofcom’s review last newspapers. We know how important advertising is. November. The noble Lord, Lord Luke, emphasised We should not underestimate the concerns that are this point, raised also by my noble friend Lord Harrison. caused by the downturn in the economy, but we can We are looking at the Audit Commission’s recent look to the recovery from that, and we hope that local review of local authority publicity and how the newspapers survive so that they can participate in that Government’s code of recommended practice on local recovery. authority publicity might be amended. My right My noble friend Lord Harrison emphasised the honourable friend the Secretary of State for the DCMS, principle underlying cause in his opening contribution, on whose behalf I am speaking at this Dispatch Box and the noble Lords, Lord Roberts and Lord Luke, today, has written to his counterpart in the Department reflected it in their remarks: the growth of the internet of Communities and Local Government, drawing his and online advertising as a direct competitor to newspapers attention to this important question. and the news media. I shall cite some statistics. The I do not want to exaggerate the issue. None of us value of regional newspaper advertising fell from would deny the right of local authorities to communicate £2.8 billion to £2 billion between 2002 and 2008. At effectively with their local communities on the services the same time, the value of internet advertising grew they provide. However, when these perhaps stray into from £0.2 billion to £2.8 billion. That is a real competitive more tendentious comment and are sustained by challenge, which is having a dramatic effect on newspapers advertising which, as the noble Lord, Lord Luke, and helps to explain a great number of difficulties that hinted, might otherwise be available to local news they face. media, then an element of unfair competition might Nevertheless, many local and regional newspapers come in. We are concerned about the relatively small across the country continue to remain viable and to number of cases. The number of local authorities provide an essential service for their readers. Noble where the line has been overstepped is not much more Lords have been kind enough in their contributions to than a handful. We are asking the Secretary of State reflect on their local press. I will not miss this opportunity with responsibility for local government to look at to reflect that the Oldham Chronicle is an evening daily practice and to evaluate the position against this changing that has been going for over 150 years. I attest to the situation. I have no doubt that if emendations are obvious fact made by other noble Lords that, were an effected, local authorities will pay due regard to any organ of such significance to go, so would a crucial changes in advice. linchpin of local democracy and community.Fortunately, As is his wont, my noble friend Lord Harrison has despite its financial difficulties, the Chronicle is presently raised an enormously important issue. A debate of still printing each weekday. this short duration and limited participation can scarcely There have also been amalgamations. We note that do justice to a linchpin of local democracy. However, I Trinity Mirror has announced that three of its west emphasise that the Government are fully seized of the London titles are to be distributed free, extending financial and economic challenge to local and regional their reach to far more homes than their current, press. It is important that action is taken to sustain paid-for editions. Noble Lords implied that it is all local news as effectively as we can. None of us has any right for big companies to sustain free editions and doubts that this is the basis of effective participation that this shows that the market has declined for paid in local democracy and local interest, and is at the newspapers across the country. However, these are heart of the greater democracy represented by Parliament. important initiatives in the areas they are viable, where That is why we need to cherish the grass roots of our the advertising is significant and the group is big democracy. I am grateful to my noble friend for having enough to sustain the position to extend a local newspaper. introduced this important debate. We have been concerned to take certain steps in what is a genuine problem with local and regional 4.10 pm news media. We are concerned about opportunities to Sitting suspended. introduce local and regional news consortia that can deliver an innovative and multi-platform news offering. That is clearly going to need some support, which is Prisons: Howard League Commission why the Government have identified the underspend Question for Short Debate on digital switchover of the BBC licence money. It is important that these consortia provide effective, accurate and dispassionate local news in their areas. There is no 4.30 pm doubt that otherwise the pressures could prove so Asked By Lord Carlile of Berriew great that some areas would be devoid of that service. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their We are also inviting the Office of Fair Trading to response to the Howard League’s Commission on examine whether the media merger rules and market English Prisons Today. GC 203 Prisons: Howard League Commission[LORDS] Prisons: Howard League Commission GC 204

Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, I declare an Germany, with 20 million more people than the interest as president of the Howard League for Penal United Kingdom, jails around 72,000 people, France Reform. I welcome the opportunity today to debate only 64,000. Yet in both those countries campaigners the report from the Howard League’s Commission on say that there are too many in jail and call for reform. English Prisons. I look forward to a constructive reply Are the English and Welsh really any more criminal or by the Minister and am grateful to the distinguished likely victims of crime than the French and Germans noble Lords who have put down their names to speak and our other neighbours? Why do we feel the need to in this debate. imprison so many more people and what does it The commission was an independent review of the achieve? prisons crisis by some of the country’s leading experts Worse still than the sheer numbers, the prisons have and practitioners who were asked to look radically at become warehouses for dumping people with problems the purpose and limits of our penal system early in the that should have been dealt with elsewhere. I would 21st Century. The final report, Do Better Do Less,was highlight the number of mentally ill people in prison, published last July. Key ideas in the report, such as practically none of whom are dealt with in the way in introducing a model of localism in the criminal justice which they would be in the community, were they to system and advocating the concept of justice reinvestment go through conventional clinical systems. In an —to which I will return later—have been echoed in overcrowded and overwhelmed prison system, those subsequent reports by the All-party Parliamentary people will never get the help that they need to move Group on Local Government and a recent report from on beyond the ever-revolving door. Reoffending rates the Justice Select Committee entitled, Cutting Crime: speak for themselves; for young people leaving prison, The Case for Justice Reinvestment. the rates rise as high as 75 per cent. The time is now ripe for urgent reform. In summary, the report advocates a new approach of penal moderation The commission espouses the vision of less crime, and fundamental reform. One headline is a significant safer communities and fewer people in prison. The reduction in the prison population and the closure of real key to that lies in the communities approach. The establishments. Another is localisation, of which more commission advocated a more localised criminal justice later. Thirdly, there is the replacement of short prison system, particularly for communities where crime is of sentences, which achieve little if anything, with most concern and the public simply do not understand community-based responses. Fourthly, there is the why things are as bad as they perceive them to be. The dismantling of NOMS, including the break-up of the commission’s report advocates devolving criminal justice centrally managed prison service, save for retaining spending and giving local authorities in partnership some centralisation for the most serious and dangerous with the police the lead role in the fight against crime. offenders. It argues that localism should lead to less money spent The commission’s signal contribution to the debate on process and more on actions, which produce beneficial was to link the penal crisis in our prisons to wider outcomes for the whole community. What is missing, economic conditions and requirements. This was not among other things, is a sense that the public and new, but it re-emphasised that radical reform of the those elected to represent them have any local ownership prison system can provide value for money—and save of the criminal justice system, a feeling that would be money. With prison numbers almost doubling in the especially useful in producing effective restorative justice. past 15 years, it is fair to say that the imprisonment A more responsive devolved system would allow industry has been booming. Yet, as with many bad local areas to shift resources smoothly from funding businesses, booming turnover has been accompanied prison places to funding community needs. That is by a bust in profit. Our prisons, groaning under the what is described as justice reinvestment, a concept weight of more men, women and children than ever that has come from the United States of America. before, are simply unfit for purpose, particularly in Some states were unable to balance their budgets being able to achieve any goals other than containment. because of the very extensive use of prison. Those The commission identified that the need to reduce budgetary crises opened legislators to cross party lines and public spending over the coming years brought with it share together new ideas. They mapped neighbourhoods an opportunity to inject some sanity, permanence and to prison populations, and as a result experts were able stability into the penal system. The message at the to identify what have been called “million-dollar blocks”, heart of the commission’s report is in its title: Do so called because it costs $1 million a year to incarcerate Better Do Less. Instead of more legislative hyperactivity a high proportion of the block’s inhabitants. The in the field of criminal justice and ramping up ever question that justice reinvestment asks is why we should higher the use of costly imprisonment, the commission not spend that $1 million not on prisons but on the argued with force for a principle of moderation. area. In states that are pioneering justice reinvestment At the core was some well founded research, for initiatives, that means reducing the use of prison and plenty of information is available abroad. In its visits closing jails to free up funding so that it can be spent to other countries, the commission found that it was on dealing with the underlying causes of crime in entirely realistic to have less crime, safer communities these neighbourhoods. The Government have shown and fewer people in prisons. Surely that is the formula enthusiasm for the community court initiative in that we should adopt, yet here we are, bumping along Liverpool—and I am delighted to see the right reverend towards 85,000 in prison, a figure that will increase as Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool in this Committee. It a result of the announcement, which I understand has has proved to be very successful. The same can occur already been made in another place today, that the if they show similar enthusiasm for localisation of early release scheme is to cease in March. imprisonment. GC 205 Prisons: Howard League Commission[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Prisons: Howard League Commission GC 206

Justice reinvestment is not about alternatives just you can find yourself in custody for failing to turn up within the criminal justice system; it is about making at the times fixed by the board for interviews. The cost partnerships within and outside the criminal justice of keeping a young person of this order in custody system. It recognises that the criminal justice system rises up to about £185,780 per annum. As someone as we have it can be a very blunt instrument, and remarked, you could have a student at Eton College nowhere is that felt with more frustration than by for six years for that amount, and I humbly believe judges and magistrates as they send people to jail and that, notwithstanding the criticisms that have been know that they will be back again, certainly in magistrates’ made of that venerable institution, the benefits of courts in city centres, probably within a few weeks. being there are probably rather greater than those of Justice reinvestment, as advocated by the report, being in Her Majesty’s custody for a year. also enables localities to tackle issues of education and The answer to this question is quite difficult, but training, poor mental health and better public amenities, the majority of young people in this position have even stairwells, playgrounds and safe places for young been in the care of the local authority or under the people to hang out. Justice reinvestment, as advocated charge of the social services, so people who have by the Howard League commission, advocates new already been failed by the system are being failed local strategic partnerships and involves trusting local again, at great cost to the nation. The sooner this authorities and communities with responsibility but, I stops, the better. would argue, trusting them with the responsibilities and opportunities that they are best at. Thus, prison 4.45 pm and probation budgets would be devolved to their control, giving them funds for justice reinvestment Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, noble Lords initiatives. If pilot projects were created, as has happened will recognise that I am in no way an expert on the in the United States, I can see no argument contrary to prison system. I have only two locus standi for being the view that we would see benefit. I urge the Government, here. First, I chair my party’s working group on localism and the Minister in his response, to recognise that this and how to decentralise Britain. Secondly, I was involved report has made a useful and constructive contribution in the Offender Management Bill some years ago, and to the debate and that not to adopt it, at least on a test spent some time talking to people in prisons and basis, would be an act of neglect. probation services around Yorkshire on what the Bill would mean for the prison system. I became less and less convinced of the case for NOMS as we went 4.41 pm through the Bill, and more and more sceptical of the Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, I congratulate entire ideology of new public management. the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, on initiating I viewed with immense enthusiasm a quotation this debate as president of the Howard League for from Geoff Mulgan, of all people, in this report: Penal Reform and on the report, which was supported “There were never any serious theoretical, empirical or popular by the Howard League. It is extremely valuable and arguments in favour of centralisation … overcentralisation tends worthy of a discussion at least as long as the one we to be associated with poorer performance, and decentralisation will have. with better performance”. I shall deal with the point mentioned in paragraph 1.14. That is one of the more important messages of this The page is headed “Wales”and has a green paragraph report. about Wales, but I do not see much connection between The other important message is that giving way to that paragraph and what happens later. It may be a what the report calls “penal populism”, and which I compliment to the president to do it that way, but I am would call the clamour of the Daily Mail simply to not sure. The point is about the terrific increase there lock people up and forget about them, leads to greater has been in the number of 10 to 14 year-old children in expenditure and worse outcomes. I note that the United custody in the period studied: 1996 to 2006. There has Kingdom now has the highest spending on law and been a 550 per cent increase in the number of children order in the entire OECD—a point to consider when in custody in that time. That is a very sad and we think about future cuts in spending. Social care is extraordinary situation and, like the report as a whole, cheaper; probation is cheaper. Above all, local it requires urgent attention from Her Majesty’s management not only is cheaper but has much more Government. The independent president of the effective outcomes. Many of us have seen local magistrates’ commission was the president of Barnardo’s during courts being knocked down and moved away from part of her time at the commission. I am a member of towns to region centres. Barnardo’s, and my wife was on the council for a The whole process of justice and social care is considerable number of years, although she retired a becoming less and less local, and it is now quite considerable number of years ago. I take an interest in evident that we need to localise justice, offender what Barnardo’s says. As your Lordships will know, management and looking after those who have started the chief executive of Barnardo’s is Martin Narey. He in care and are likely to go on being in care until they was a senior official at the Home Office, and therefore enter the prison system. I met a number of people in speaks with a great deal of authority. Leeds prison who were called POPOs—prolific and Over the period referred to, the number of 10 to persistent offenders whom the prison officers assured 14 year-olds in custody increased by 550 per cent. The me they had seen before and expected to see again and principal reason for that is that the detention order, who would go on being recycled through the prison which was introduced in the Bill of, I think, 2000, has system until, in their mid to late 30s, they would finally greatly opened the possibility of custody for young grow out of it. I was also shocked to discover how children and not for serious offences only. For example, much prisoners were moved around the system out of GC 207 Prisons: Howard League Commission[LORDS] Prisons: Howard League Commission GC 208

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] population; investment in localities, exactly echoing their own region. They lost touch with their families that; and the replacement of short prison sentences and were therefore likely to come out of prison without with community-based responses. the framework that they needed to prevent reoffending. Three weeks ago, I was in Libya advising the Libyans I strongly support the report. I particularly support to do exactly the same thing. The Libyans have now the whole idea that the offender must be seen not just gone further than we have as a result of our advice as an individual but as a member of a community, and based on this document. To the dismantling of the must be encouraged to go back into that community. National Offender Management Service I say, “Hear, That community also needs to be involved in the hear”; it is a monster and it is a bureaucratic disaster. whole process. Liverpool has been mentioned. I should However, I have one problem with the break-up: it is also mention Chard in Somerset, in which the Liberal about to appoint a new chief executive. It is very Democrat-led council has done a great deal to experiment dangerous to appoint a new chief executive to an usefully with restorative justice. That seems to all of us organisation which has clearly failed without being to be the way forward. We welcome the report. Sadly, quite clear what that chief executive is to do, particularly we also welcome its condemnation of one of the as the Conservative Party has already announced that greatest failures of new Labour over the past 12 years. it intends to do something about NOMS as well. That is another matter. Finally, on local partners, yes, they are waiting for 4.49 pm that and we all know that they want to do it. Why on Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I, too, congratulate earth have we not listened to the advice on which the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and, like other Members everyone agreed 19 years ago? of this House, I am very grateful to the Howard League for producing this report. I also welcome and 4.53 pm support the remarks made by the noble and learned The Lord Bishop of Liverpool: My Lords, the Howard Lord, Lord Mackay, about children, about which we League for Penal Reform has provided us with a huge have had many debates on the Floor of this House. service. The Commission on English Prisons Today When I read the report, I could not help reflecting offers us detailed statistics, robust analysis and radical on the fact that, in the Army, if you were told that you recommendations. In my visits to prisons, bail hostels had to write a report on something, the first thing you and community sentencing programmes as bishop for did was go to the library and look up all the other prisons, I often hear people echoing what is in this reports on the same subject. You looked up all the report. Why, then, is this not already public policy? We recommendations that had been made, what had happened know that prison has the threefold function of to them, and why, after all those other reports—there punishment, protection and reformation but unfortunately were usually a dozen—you still had to do the same we allow the media focus on punishment to distort our thing. public policy. The punitive element seems to obscure The first thing I opened was the bibliography. I every other aspect. As this commission demonstrates, looked in vain for two documents which I very much we are left with a criminal justice system that is financially hoped would be there: one was the wonderful report wasteful, educationally ineffectual and socially negative. on the riots in Strangeways Prison and 23 other prisons, In other words, a better system, as proposed here, written by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, in would save public money through greater and better 1991, and the other was a White Paper, Custody, Care community sentencing, reduce reoffending with local and Justice, agreed to by all political parties, which programmes on restorative justice and enhance social took the Prison Service into the 21st century, based on stability through local, strategic interventions. These a real crisis. I looked for those documents because are the messages that all of us concerned with community there were 12 objectives in that report with which, at justice need to get out through the media and bring to the time, everyone agreed. I shall quote four of them: bear on public policy. to end overcrowding; to improve co-operation with It is extraordinary that millions of pounds can be other services and institutions by working closely with found to build more prison places, while budgets are the probation service and by membership of a national squeezed and purposeful activity in prison is reduced. forum and area committees; to increase delegation of We are putting more and more damaged people into responsibility and accountability to all levels with prison regimes that are less and less restorative. That is clear leadership and a published annual statement of not a recipe for a stable society, let alone a humane objectives; and to develop community prisons which one. This is not about being soft on crime. It is about will involve the gradual realignment of the prison understanding why and how people get into crime, estate into geographically coherent groups, serving and why and how they get out of it. most prisoners within that area. In the faith sector, huge independent and voluntary That was 19 years ago and absolutely nothing has resources are already being deployed in the rehabilitation happened. Here we are with another report saying of offenders. They would have a key role to play in the exactly the same sort of things, but bringing them up commission’s proposal for local strategic partnerships. to date with justice reinvestment, which I support, But if we look at interventions to prevent criminal with the dreadful story of the hyperactivity of new behaviour, we cannot ignore the role of the family. On Labour, with all its Bills, its new crimes, its overcrowding listening to prisoners, I am constantly struck by how and more prison places but no progress other than an much of their behaviour can be traced back to parental increased reconviction rate. I welcome the four ideas, neglect and family dysfunction. We need bold, new including the significant reduction in the prison initiatives that will target the hard-to-reach parents. GC 209 Prisons: Howard League Commission[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Prisons: Howard League Commission GC 210

Like the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, I was pleased to on the current value of the dollar is $13,232 per case, see that the commission had visited the community and the actual outturns for reoffending are exactly the justice centre in Liverpool and had observed its success same, so the result is the same for a much cheaper in working collaboratively across the criminal justice price. If you add into it all the localism in this report, system in addressing criminal behaviour holistically. you will have a fantastically improved system. This is a government initiative and a government success on which they should be congratulated. However, 5.01 pm when you ask why this approach cannot be adopted everywhere, the same issue—that of money—arises. Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, like all other Surely, as this commission suggests, it is profligate speakers in this debate, I recognise the wealth and spending to build prisons and to incarcerate at huge significance of this report, and I believe very deeply public expense, when you could spend less money by that we ignore its research and recommendations at diverting from prison those who could be punished our peril. and rehabilitated in other ways. The report shows that our policies on imprisonment over the past 30 years have been laced with inconsistencies and misconceptions. The central irony is that while 4.57 pm crime that is recorded by the British Crime Survey has Lord Elton: My Lords, I do not congratulate the fallen by 45 per cent in the past 15 years, the prison noble Lord on getting this debate, because that is easy. population has gone in exactly the opposite direction, But I thank him for doing so, because it is something more than doubling between 1992 and the present he might not have done. It has provided us with an year. That is a very sobering central irony in the whole occasion on which to discuss this extraordinary and situation. important report, although I recognise what the noble Parallel with this development, and certainly not Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has said about it being, in a unassociated with it, is the fact that Her Majesty’s sense, an echo of something that has been said previously. Government have, in each of the past 13 years, However, it is said in a different voice and has a added on average 100 brand new offences that carry a different scale of detail. It lays much more emphasis custodial sanction: that is, something in the order of on the most important aspect of this issue; namely, the 1,400 offences in the past 13 years. Since 1997, role of the community. Parliament has passed no less than 23 criminal justice Seeing a right reverend Prelate behind me tempts Acts. It is worth noting that between 1925 and 1985—a me to say that when God asked Cain where his brother period of 60 years that included a world war and was, Cain said, “Am I my brother’s keeper?”. The all the disruption of its aftermath—only six criminal answer should certainly have been yes, because that is justice Acts were regarded as necessary: one every the basis of community. People are built by their 10 years. homes—we have heard references to failed parents—and As the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and others have by the communities in which they live. They should be mentioned, we incarcerate 153 persons per 100,000. able to be safe in their streets, to know each other and That is more than any other country in western Europe to look out for each other’s children. That is the basic bar Spain, which has a figure of 160, and Luxembourg, pillar on which society rests. for some reason—presumably because of the number When someone gets damaged and is not supported of banks that it has every acre—which has a figure in by the system, they are taken out of their community, the order of 155. We incarcerate 60 per cent more put into a prison miles away and then shunted around. people per hundred thousand than France, Germany, The answer to this is to localise the prison service and Italy, Belgium and the Irish Republic. I ask the same its management; to stabilise and reduce its population; question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile: are we and to have recourse to the community to pick up the 60 per cent more wicked, more criminally disposed, results and make a far better answer of it. than the people of those countries, or is there another Page 145 of the House of Commons Justice Committee reason? I believe clearly that there is. There is mass report refers to the experiment in the Deschutes County hysteria in the community about imprisonment that of Oregon, USA. The experiment devolved the has been brought about by successive Governments, management of youth offenders, excluding violent who have led people to believe that you can wave a offenders, to the local authority and, to a certain magic wand and that crime will simply disappear. extent, delegated the funding thereof. The report only Opposition parties have shown that that is wrong, summarises the statistical findings. The detail can be as they are entitled to do, but have given the impression found on an Oregon website. The cost of incarceration that the Government of the day are presiding over a by the county per day was greater than that provided mounting crime wave. That is not the case. The ordinary by the state—$202 a day as opposed to $166. But the citizen could certainly be excused for believing that we average length of stay in the correctional facility was were going headlong down the path to disaster in 4.4 months, as opposed to 8.3 months. Therefore, it relation to crime. Tabloid editors have predictably seen costs a good deal less. The cost of aftercare/parole was it to be to their profit to perpetuate these myths. Yet, $62 a day, as against $20 when administered by the for all the hysteria, the system has failed. Nothing state, so it cost a great deal more. The average stay in shows that so remarkably clearly as this report. The aftercare/parole was 11.5 months, as opposed to system has failed to reform or assuage public fears, 14 months—so, again, the cost was much less. The and in every respect. The statistic of two-thirds of total cost per case was $48,396 when locally done, and persons being reconvicted within two years clearly $65,866 when done state-wide. The approximate saving shows that. GC 211 Prisons: Howard League Commission[LORDS] Prisons: Howard League Commission GC 212

[LORD ELYSTAN-MORGAN] aim to speed up the deportation of foreign national There is an alternative, as shown in this report. The prisoners before the end of their sentences, and extend situation calls for change not only in policy but also in automatic deportation to prisoners from non-EU countries the psychology of the whole community. It is possible who are serving sentences of less than one year. to reduce the prison population in a sensible and safe There is a correlation between overcrowded prisons way. It has been done before. Between 1908 and 1939, and the number of inmates who are committing suicide. the prison population was halved. That was done by This tragic state of affairs calls for greater attention long-sighted people with vision and resolution. It is concerning the mental health of inmates as well as exactly what has to be attempted now. Whichever their overall well-being. Prison is a deplorable sanction public leader stands up and advocates this policy will for young people, and should be reserved for only the be traduced and vilified. He will be said to be a most serious youth offenders. This view reiterates the namby-pamby, starry-eyed romantic—but he will be ardent belief that child welfare is paramount to reducing sane. He will be putting forward a better idea and youth crime and curbing reoffending rates. Our justice vision than what we have today in our brainwashed system should be fundamentally based on the principles society in relation to imprisonment. of enforcing punishment and educating prisoners. Investments made in crime prevention measures will 5.07 pm pay dividends in efforts to counter reoffending. Lord Sheikh: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for securing this debate. The growing 5.12 pm prison population and further increases in the number of offenders who return to custody are complex issues Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, from the Liberal that require a multifaceted solution. It is encouraging Democrat Front Bench, as it were, I welcome this to see that the Howard League has produced a thorough report—and not only because it confirms my own and informative account of the problems facing our prejudices. I have never been attracted by the sort of prisons today—and the possible solutions. sentencing policy that tests the machismo of the current Government. Rather, I regard a willingness to work at The commission’s research shows that there has the harder options—community-based responses are been a marked rise in the number of ethnic-minority not a soft option, if properly structured—as a test of a prisoners, especially Muslims, compared to a lower community’s dignity. We must not underestimate the increase in the number of white inmates. It goes on to need to win the hearts and minds of the community, reveal that the number of Muslim prisoners has doubled nor the difficulty of that task. Community-based responses over the past 10 years and now stands at nearly 10,000 need to be accepted. persons. This is particularly disturbing as Muslims account for 3 per cent of the total population in This morning, in a local shop, I overheard a discussion Britain but make up almost 11 per cent of the prison about a number of burglaries that had taken place population. Why has this unacceptable situation arisen locally, where someone commented: “Lock ’em all up, and what remedial action will be taken to address this that’s what I say”. That is an instinctive reaction from alarming trend? both a victim and a potential victim. As the report says, The annual report by Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector “once the punitive genie is out of the bottle, it is not easily put of Prisons draws attention to the fact that approximately back”. one quarter of Muslim prisoners said they felt unsafe. The report refers to a characteristic of a more, More than 30 per cent stated that they had been subjected to bullying by prison staff. I acknowledge “moderate approach to penal policy”, the reality that prison staff do a tremendously difficult being, job. However, any type of bullying is unacceptable. “a mass media relatively uninterested in crime and punishment”. Will the Minister be forthcoming in revealing what That could not be said of the media in this country; measures the Government will take to remedy this they carry a heavy responsibility, and the right reverend situation? Prelate’s term “distortion” was a temperate one. A survey by the Muslim YouthHelpline highlighted I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Wallace for that 63 per cent of reoffenders felt that they did not covering the issue of localism. I hope that stronger have the help they needed upon leaving prison. Some local partnerships are ideas whose time has come; they 82 per cent stated that faith-based support networks in have been bubbling up for a little while, with other the community would have prevented them returning organisations looking at the same issues. We know to crime. It is therefore important to encourage and that the risk of reoffending is much reduced by stable increase the number of prison volunteers from all housing, employment, drug treatment planning and faiths, while recognising that there is an important role programming and family and local contacts—all things to be played by religious leaders in our communities. that are the very stuff of local partnerships. Education Does the Minister agree that a greater emphasis should and training are vital; an offender needs skills to go be placed on helping communities to develop faith-based straight. Partnership work between business and prisons projects that specifically target offenders? or other penal schemes can help to achieve purposeful The commission’s research shows that between 2004 activity. I have one specific question for the Minister; and 2008 the number of foreign national prisoners do the Government recognise all this as an appropriate rose by 29 per cent. I believe that those who enter our component in the Total Place work that is now being country and breach our laws have lost their right to a carried out, up and down the country, and is sponsored place in all areas of British society. We should therefore by the DCLG? GC 213 Prisons: Howard League Commission[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Prisons: Howard League Commission GC 214

The report also mentions prisons built under the boasting about a dramatic reduction in levels of violent public-private finance initiative, an issue presently being crime, but as the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, considered by your Lordships’ Economic Affairs pointed out, despite the alleged drop in the levels of Committee. A good privately financed prison should violent crime, we have seen a dramatic rise in the be not just about bricks and mortar but also about number of people going to prison. facilitating a modern, productive regime through the We offer broad support for the report, while being bundling of building and services. careful to state that implementation would be possible I was also interested in the report’s references to only when resources allowed. Some speakers referred New York City being, to the very severe constraints as a result of our current “in the midst of national mass incarceration”, economic position—I think particularly of my noble but it has reduced crime and the prison population. I friend Lord Elton, who referred to the Oregon experiment wonder whether that goes with the broken windows with localism, to which the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, approach of tackling crime at the lowest level to seek also referred. That is a way of looking at things in to stop it escalating. That was pioneered in New York. other ways, which might lead to a reduction in the I congratulate the Howard League. If prison does costs that this will impose on the taxpayer. not work, then more of the same will not work either. I welcome the chance that we have had to debate I believe that the report has identified and described these matters briefly, and look forward to the what is far more likely to work. Government’s response. 5.16 pm 5.20 pm Lord Henley: My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Elton, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry for giving us the opportunity to debate the Howard of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, I start by paying League report. Sadly, we have only four minutes each tribute to the Howard League for Penal Reform and to to speak and only an hour for the whole debate. its president, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. I thank the Perhaps the usual channels would consider a fuller Howard League for the chance to discuss the important debate on this matter in due course. We will also be and radical report that it produced last summer and debating some of these matters later in the Chamber, the noble Lord for introducing the debate. I also thank when the Minister repeats his Statement on prisoners’ all other noble Lords who have spoken. early release. At this stage, we are debating a much We very much welcome the contribution that the broader strategy about prisons and, on that occasion, report has made to a continuing debate, although we we should be able to listen to what the Government do not of course agree with all its conclusions. The are doing or claim they are doing. report argues for “penal moderation”. The Government In the time available, I shall not set out the entire agree that the use of prison must be effectively targeted, opposition policy on prisons, which was set out very but we are in no doubt about the important role that ably by my honourable friends in another place in prison continues play in delivering a fair and just their report of last year, Prisons with a Purpose.I society for victims of crime, the general public and commend that to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and communities. Prison remains the right option for others and I hope that they will look at it. In the title dangerous, serious and the most seriously persistent of that document, Prisons with a Purpose, my honourable offenders. To that end, we have increased prison capacity friends made it clear what they thought prisons ought by more than 25,000 places since 1997, and are committed to do: for example, that people should emerge from to increasing net capacity to 96,000 places by 2014, prisons in a better state than when they went in. One following the report of my noble friend Lord Carter. of the problems, which will be addressed in the Statement We will always make sure that there are enough prison later, is gross overcrowding within the prison system, places for those the courts sentence to custody or which makes it is very difficult for prisons to achieve place on remand, and we make no apology for that. much in the way of improving the lives of prisoners Resource spending on prisons was 42 per cent higher and making them more fit to face society when they in real terms in 2007-08 than was the case in 1996-97. are released. One consequence of providing that additional capacity Our brief debate has been very useful and a great is that we can now withdraw the end of the custody many ideas have been put forward by all who have licence scheme, as my right honourable friend the spoken. My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Justice Secretary told the other place earlier today and Clashfern was quite right to highlight the dramatic as we will discuss later. That scheme was introduced in increase in the number of 10 to 14 year-olds in custody. 2007 as a temporary measure to ease pressures on the The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, was also right to draw prison population, and we now have sufficient headroom attention to the problems of NOMS, with which virtually in the estate to withdraw the scheme. We have always everyone who has spoken in the debate would agree. made it clear that the scheme would be temporary and The Minister will have to address the defence of NOMS it is right that we have ended it as soon as it was safe to when he replies, if he can. do so. However, we do not believe that the Government We would agree with the vast majority of the report’s are engaged in unthinking “hyperactivity”, as the report recommendations and the general direction that it and some noble Lords have alleged. We are thinking takes. It is an excellent report. However, in some through carefully the establishment of this new capacity, respects it is perhaps a little optimistic in that it goes with a close eye on the needs of offenders. The new further than we would as regards closing prisons. We prisons, each of around 1,500 places, that were announced are in a very strange state where the Government are a few months ago, will be built in areas where places GC 215 Prisons: Howard League Commission[LORDS] Iran: Human Rights GC 216

[LORD BACH] have started intensive orders in the pilot areas. The are most needed. That will ensure that prisoners can projects have developed innovative partnerships with be held closer to home and will reduce the number of the police and the third and private sectors to give times an offender is transferred between establishments, offenders opportunities to turn their lives around or which we know disrupts rehabilitative and educational face swift and tough sanctions. The projects, which are programmes. We have increased investment in education being evaluated, have engaged with the courts to build provision, which is a critical part of rehabilitation, sentencer confidence in intensive community orders as from £57 million in 2001-02 to more than £175 million a robust, demanding and effective alternative to short-term in 2009-10. In 2008-09, nearly 38 per cent of offenders custody. entered employment, training and education on release, The commission argues that local communities should and the figure into this year shows continuing increases have a role in managing offenders, and we agree. We each month. introduced community payback, enabling the public We are also committed to providing alcohol and to have a say in what unpaid work offenders carry out drug treatment for offenders in prison. The Committee in the local community. Local agencies must work will know that since 1996-97 funding for prison drug together to tackle what is a shared problem, to reduce treatment has increased 15-fold with the introduction the social and financial costs of offending and to of the integrated drug treatment system, in particular. improve life for local communities. The integrated We are working with the third sector and the private offender management model, local commissioning and sector further to improve the drug treatment framework the introduction of probation trusts increase the scope available to offenders, as well as strengthening the for local flexibility and innovation. Crime and disorder continuity of support between prisons and the community. reduction partnerships, working within local community We have also done good work on alcohol offending. justice boards, play a key role in reducing re-offending, bringing together and co-ordinating the actions of In our view, prison remains a key, valuable and housing providers, health services, local authorities necessary element in our criminal justice system, but and other key players. Restorative justice has the potential the Government agree that less serious offenders can to be an important part of community engagement, often be better dealt with in the community. Therefore, and we are moving actively towards a culture of more we have programmes in place to divert offenders from visible justice with a stronger focus on encouraging custody when appropriate, including vulnerable women offenders to be more directly accountable to communities. offenders. The female prison population decreased by We have also seen restorative justice being used in a 5 per cent between June 2008 and June 2009. Following pioneering way in the youth justice system. the report by my noble friend Lady Corston, we committed to reduce the women’s prison estate by If I had time, I would talk about the justice reinvestment 400 places by March 2012. We are providing £15.6 million programme in the United States. We have the Diamond of new funding over two years to provide additional Initiative programme in London, which we believe services in the community for women offenders who shows real promise. I do not have time to go into that are not a danger to the public and for women at risk of today. offending. Moving on from the use of prison and community We are also committed to action on diverting offenders sentences to the institutional framework, it will not with mental health needs, where that is appropriate. In surprise the Committee that we do not agree that response to the Bradley report, we published a national NOMS should be abolished. The recent reorganisation health and criminal justice delivery plan in November means that the prison and probation services are working last year. We are committed to develop those policies together more closely than ever before. further. Offenders with mental health needs and vulnerable If there are any questions that I have not answered— women are not the only groups where we have seen the I am conscious that I have not answered all of them— population falling or where we are putting into place I will write to noble Lords with answers. measures to reduce the population. We have seen a I finish, first, by reminding the Committee that decline of more than 600 in the population of under-18s crime has dropped by more than a third and that the in custody in the past 16 months. chance of being a victim of crime is at an historic We cannot be accused of treating prison as the low—these are important considerations; and, secondly, be-all and end-all of the criminal justice system. We by reiterating our thanks to the commission, to the have ensured that the courts can use tough community noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and to all who have contributed punishments in place of short custodial sentences to such an important and thought-provoking report where doing so is justified and proportionate. Community and debate. sentences allow for direct payback to the community, while interventions that help offenders tackle the causes Iran: Human Rights of their behaviour are provided. These sentences are enforced rigorously, with more than 90 per cent of Question for Short Debate offenders who fail to comply returned to court. Within this broader approach to the promotion of 5.31 pm community sentences, we are doing some important Asked By Lord Corbett of Castle Vale focused work on seven intensive alternatives to custody pilot projects currently under way around the country. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent They are targeted at offenders who would otherwise assessment they have made of human rights abuses receive short custodial sentences. Nearly 1,000 offenders in Iran. GC 217 Iran: Human Rights[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Iran: Human Rights GC 218

Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, a week ago the notorious Evin prison demanding the release of today, Mr Mohammad Larijani, the secretary-general political prisoners. There were protests in other parts of Iran’s High Council for Human Rights, told a of the country. More than 60 journalists are among meeting of the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva: several hundreds awaiting mass show trials. “Iranian society is a successful model of brotherly and amicable Doubtless, as evidence of Larijani’s claim of brotherly coexistence”. and amicable co-existence, the mullahs have decreed He was almost alone at the meeting in believing this. that those demanding democracy and human rights Here is what others said. The French ambassador, are guilty of waging war on God—“mohareb”—because Jean-Baptiste Mattei, said: of their support for the PMOI, the main opposition “The authorities are waging bloody repression against their group inside the coalition, the National Council of own people, who are peacefully claiming their rights … France Resistance of Iran. On 28 January, two men were recommends that Iran accepts the creation of a credible and executed for waging war on God and at least 10 others independent international inquiry mechanism to shed light on have been found guilty on the same charge. The Guardian these violations”. reported on 4 February that the Foreign Office was The United States and Britain called on Iran to urgently seeking information on reports that a 24 year-old open up visits by the UN investigator into torture, as with joint British-Iranian nationality was among 16 people well as by other human rights experts who have been on trial. What response, if any, has there been from barred from the country since 2005. Iran on this? “Grave human rights violations continue to be committed”, A surprising aspect of the demonstrations in December said the British ambassador, Peter Gooderham. and since has been the regime’s acknowledgement that Mr Michael Posner, the US assistant secretary for the PMOI has been leading them. For years, the democracy and human rights, said that Washington, regime has denied the PMOI’s existence and derided any support it claimed inside the country. On 29 January, “strongly condemns the recent violent and unjust suppression of innocent Iranian citizens”. no less a figure than Ahmad Jannati, head of the powerful though unelected Guardian Council, said Western nations said collectively at that meeting of that, the Human Rights Council that they wanted to see a halt in the execution of child offenders, in the “those who try to shatter the structure [of the regime] … and enemies of the revolution who intend to topple [it] … must not be disproportionate use of the death penalty against political treated with compassion. There can be no room for mercy; it is opponents, in violence against women, in discrimination, now time for toughness”. and in the clampdown on free speech. On 18 January, Mr Salavati, the mullah’s prosecutor The facts deny Mr Larijani’s claim, and the appalling in Tehran, said that, human rights record of the mullahs’ regime has been “Since the core of the PMOI has not been eradicated, Article 186 condemned by the United Nations on 57 separate of the Islamic Punishment Act would still apply to the PMOI”. occasions. His country hangs more people than all the In accordance with this article, other countries put together that still use capital punishment, except China. Since the 1979 revolution, “As long as the core of that organisation remains in place, all more than 120,000 political prisoners have been executed of its members and supporters … are mohareb”— and 600,000 tortured. Officially allowed torture includes that is, enemies of God. Overall, in the course of the the amputation of limbs without anaesthetic, the gouging demonstrations following that stolen election, it has out of eyes with a spoon-like instrument, and the been estimated that more than 10,000 people have stoning to death of both women and men. been arrested with many facing torture in prison. A year ago last month, 59 people were hanged, On 17 February, the UN Human Rights Council including a 35 year-old woman after 12 years on death said Iran had rejected calls for the release of all row in Rafsanjan prison. In September and October political prisoners and refused to accept an international last year, 15 male and four female prisoners were inquiry into the recent violence. It also refused to end hanged. Iran has also hanged the highest number of the death penalty and said it would not make torture children in the world, and now has about 70 awaiting an offence under its laws. It also refused entry to the the rope. It is hard to imagine, but human rights country to the UN special investigator on torture. abuses have worsened since the stolen presidential Other recommendations by the council included the elections of June 2009. The anger of millions who ending of discrimination against women and stopping protested about that has now turned into demands for the harassment of journalists and bloggers. an end to absolute clerical rule, and for democracy We should not seek to interfere in Iran, despite the and human rights. human rights abuses. It is for Iranians to find their On 11 February, when the mullahs organised a rally own way to democracy and respect for human rights. to mark the anniversary of their 1979 takeover, more Yet we should make clear that we applaud those than 70,000 security personnel, including the corrupt millions bravely demanding democracy so that they Revolutionary Guard, stood watch. Some 500 pro- know that they do not stand alone. We need to tighten democracy demonstrators were arrested in one district economic sanctions until the regime ends its nuclear of Tehran alone. They taunted security officers with defiance and ceases torture and executions. As former shouts such as, “The uprising will continue”, and, Prime Minister Tony Blair told the Chilcot inquiry on “You can’t make the country a garrison forever”. The 29 January, speech of phoney president Ahmadinejad was greeted “the nature of the Iranian regime makes me even more worried with shouts of, “Down with the dictator”, and “End about the prospect of them with a nuclear device”. absolute clerical rule”. A crowd of 10,000 marched on That worries me as well. GC 219 Iran: Human Rights[LORDS] Iran: Human Rights GC 220

5.40 pm to be selective. What we would not want to see are sanctions that would make worse the poverty that Lord Archer of Sandwell: My Lords, I begin by already exists in Iran where 85 per cent of the population congratulating my noble friend on securing this timely are living below starvation level. debate. We do not have as many opportunities for considering the situation in Iran as that situation deserves, and he is to be very much congratulated on The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn): this. My purpose in intervening is not to produce a list I know there seems to be plenty of time, but those of human rights abuses; we have done that time and speaking in the gap should keep their remarks to again, in meetings in this Palace and in debates. It has under four minutes, if possible. been done so often that it is almost pointless to repeat it—the repression, the torture, the killing of children Lord Archer of Sandwell: I am most grateful. There and the discrimination against women. As my noble is the possibility of oil sanctions, which would impinge friend said, the situation in Iran has been condemned on the mullahs but would not necessarily make worse by human rights bodies of the United Nations 57 times. the poverty of the people. It would be an enormous I find it very difficult to catch up, because every time benefit to the morale of the people of Iran to know we have a figure for the number of times that it has that the world is on their side. We have tended to be been condemned, the figure is already out of date, mealy-mouthed on this subject. I would like to see because it increases again with the next meeting. something much more forthright from our Government. Condemnation does not seem to be working. The Revolutionary Guards and the mullahs are indifferent 5.46 pm to world opinion and impervious to argument. The Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen: My Lords, the question that we might consider is what the international regime in Iran is as evil as any regime can be. It is of community can do. The charter of the United Nations the most obnoxious kind. Next month, we celebrate had much to say about human rights, but did not spell International Women’s Day. The brave women and out any specific sanction. It was a different world, so girls of Iran, who face up to the mullahs day by day, the question of sanctions was felt to be unnecessary. are a shining example to us all. I hope that they will be Everyone felt that, once something was put to the test remembered on International Women’s Day. Our before a tribunal established by the charter, that would Government must bravely oppose this regime. It is be sufficient; it would be respected—as it would be by obvious that it is anathema to the majority of the almost every other regime in the world. However, that Iranian people. does not work here. At that time there was an overwhelming feeling that the governing factor was national sovereignty. It was felt that what went on Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, I congratulate within the borders of a nation was between the my noble friend on a timely debate. I wish to raise the Government and the people: that it was not the business relationship of Iran and the United Nations Human of the rest of us and we should not be interfering. Rights Council. We are now in a somewhat surreal That is all right if the people not silenced, but when situation, but we should remind ourselves that human they are not in a position to participate in the discussion rights abuses did not start with the mullahs and the and when every attempt to protest meets with brutal Islamic Republic. The last days of the shah were also repression, it can hardly be said that this is a matter pretty grisly, and when two opposition activists were between the Government and the people. We saw on executed a few weeks ago, it was a reminder of what 11 February that the people of Iran are crying out for happened then. change, but their protest was brutally repressed. It is possible that Iran may soon be elected as a The question still arises of what the international member of the United Nations Human Rights Council community can now do, given that Article 2.7 of the because the Islamic Republic is a candidate as part of charter of the United Nations emphasises that what the Asian regional group. That council is, among goes on within the borders of a nation are peculiar to other things, charged with making recommendations that nation. One thing that we should be doing is about human rights violations. As my noble friend revise the charter, because we know now the importance said, on 15 February Iran was subject to a periodic of international opinion in maintaining the almost review of its human rights record and showed the universal standards incorporated in the charter and importance it attaches to that body by sending a large the subsequent human rights articles. But there are delegation headed by Mohammad Larijani, the brother two possibilities, of which my noble friend mentioned of the Speaker of the Majlis. If Iran were to be elected one. in May, it would have serious implications for the credibility of the United Nations Human Rights Council, The first possibility that springs to mind is military which is already, and quite properly, assailed from a intervention, although that is not something that I number of directions. I understand that there are would seek to recommend, as it would do more harm currently five candidates for the four places on the than good to those who are already the victims of the Asian regional group: Qatar, Malaysia, Thailand, the infringements, and would probably not achieve anything Maldives and Iran. There is, as yet, no indication that at the end of the day, because what would be left any one of the other four will withdraw but, if one would be a wilderness. were to withdraw, Iran would be elected automatically. My noble friend suggests economic sanctions. I It is clearly an important objective of the Islamic hope to see our Government recommending economic Republic to be so, and it is said that it is bringing sanctions at the Security Council, but they would have pressure on at least one of those countries to withdraw GC 221 Iran: Human Rights[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Iran: Human Rights GC 222 its candidature. Thus, we are in a remarkable position. expecting some help from the outside world. The least Iran is currently in the dock, alongside other malefactors that we can do is provide that help in sanctions and such as Burma and North Korea, because since 2005 it other measures that the UN should now take along has excluded all UN rapporteurs investigating human with other countries, so that something can be done. rights violations. Yet it is now, at least possibly, on the verge of becoming a member of the council. 5.54 pm Fairly recently, about three years ago, I had the Lord Lea of Crondall: I congratulate my noble privilege of meeting Shirin Ebadi, the Iranian woman friend on his sustained campaign on human rights, but who won the Nobel Peace Prize. She is now calling for we are now drifting into a more and more intolerable the creation of a UN special rapporteur for Iran. relationship between internal human rights and the Finally, would my noble friend, when he responds for nuclear enrichment problem, with the American military the Government, indicate the current situation in respect more or less saying, “We will not intervene militarily, of Iran’s candidature and the prospects of Iran succeeding but we do not know what Israel will do”, and so on. It and therefore becoming a member of the UN Human is very obvious that there is a vicious circle in which Rights Council? the regime can play the external threat alongside more and more internal repression. How does my noble Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister—along with Russia, America, France friend say how the Government see the connection— and China, et cetera—see the relationship between nuclear non-proliferation, and all those other questions, and the need not to find ourselves in the worst of all The Deputy Chairman of Committees: My Lords, possible worlds, where there is more and more internal the noble Lord should have put his name down in the repression? If there could be a revolution without gap. We have another gap speaker to go who has other consequences, that would be one thing, but signified that he will speak. could my noble friend put the jigsaw together in some way, however difficult that might be? Lord Lea of Crondall: I made some inquiries earlier and did not know that I had to put my name down. 5.56 pm Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne: The noble Lord Colwyn: It should be signified to the speakers Lord, Lord Corbett of Castle Vale, has most wonderfully in the debate and to the Chair. Perhaps the noble provided us with an opportunity to discuss human Lord, Lord King of West Bromwich, could say his few rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran today. We are all words—I remind him to keep to three minutes—before grateful to him for that. the noble Lord. I am absolutely sure that the situation worries anyone who has any knowledge of the region, and, for those 5.51 pm of us who have many friends there, the situation is Lord King of West Bromwich: My Lords, I thank particularly poignant. Indeed, we in the United Kingdom you for allowing me some time. There is no doubt have very high expectations of Iran to follow the ways about what is happening in Iran. It has been going on of living, the cultural modalities and the diplomatic for so many years, with so many people suffering, that and civil society rights to which Iran has so successfully the catalogue is endless. The recent report of 17 February signed up over so many years. Iran is one of the most by the Human Rights Council clearly said that Iran ancient of civilisations, and the UK has a magnificent rejects all calls to release all political prisoners or to history of co-operation in all aspects of life. Many accept an international inquiry into the recent violence. citizens of the United Kingdom come from the Islamic It also refused to end the death penalty and said that it Republic of Iran or from the Shah’s regime before will not make torture an offence, so personally I then. Indeed, we have a large number of Persian-British cannot see what else people would want to see to citizens who talk about these issues almost daily whenever condemn this regime without any conditions at all. We we meet them. have already seen what is happening in Afghanistan I must immediately put my cards on the table and when people have gone in there to help a democratic say that I do not share the pessimism of the noble system. Iran is going even further than that in making Lord, Lord King, about the possibilities of dialogue. life difficult for all Iranians who live there. Today, the Foreign Affairs Council of the European It is quite clear that appeasement is not going to Union, under the chairmanship of the European High work. I was listening to the television yesterday and I Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, think that Mrs Thatcher, when Argentina was invading, the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, is discussing both said that dictators like those in Argentina never understand the nuclear issue and political and human rights in the the word “appeasement”. She was totally right, and Islamic Republic of Iran. the same applies in this particular case. We should Our position as a key member of the European really try to put some sanctions in—not sanctions in Union must be this: that the EU must be willing to name, but in a proper format—so that they can do consider new restrictive measures against Iran unless something to help the Iranians. Obviously, we have it responds favourably to the international community’s also learnt, to our cost, that any military intervention offer of engagement on the nuclear issue, and at the in other countries seldom works. In the case of Iran, same time be willing to seek a negotiated solution with the opposition party and the people of Iran are really Tehran. In other words, this is not the either/or situation struggling to make their viewpoint known and are to which the noble Lord, Lord King, has perhaps GC 223 Iran: Human Rights[LORDS] Iran: Human Rights GC 224

[BARONESS NICHOLSON OF WINTERBOURNE] monitored elections and discussed human rights, there pinned his colours; this is a situation in which, as a key is a different understanding. I believe strongly that member of the European Union, we would very much certain components of human rights are absolutely prefer a negotiated solution. fundamental, such as the right of freedom of expression Only a week or so ago, on 11 February, the noble or to practice whatever faith you wish freely. They are Baroness, Lady Ashton, who is also Vice-President of fundamental human rights to which all nations of the the Commission, declared: world have signed up, including the Islamic Republic of Iran. Yet their implementation is sometimes understood “On the anniversary of the Islamic revolution, which for many in different contexts. We have to understand more in Iran should symbolise progress in fundamental freedoms and rights, the European Union notes with great concern that a large clearly the cultural identity of the people to whom number of Iranians have been prevented from expressing their those rights are being ascribed. In other words, we views”. need to organise our approach towards the Islamic Earlier, under the Swedish presidency following the Republic of Iran to make it absolutely clear that we elections, the EU perhaps put on record our complete are not dictating. Rather, we are reminding both them position: and us of our shared cultural identity, which over many decades and generations has brought us closer “The EU reiterates its commitment to human rights and together. democratic values, not least freedom of expression and association. These are universal human rights, and the EU recalls that Iran We believe in human rights, but a society in transition, has committed itself to these rights as a State Party to the such as the Islamic Republic of Iran, may prefer to International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. The EU take our particular analysis of what is a human right deplores the violations of freedom of expression and freedom of in a completely different way. The vital thing now, if the press—national as well as international—in connection with the events following elections day. Restrictions remain at an even we are to avoid an absolute confrontation, is to go higher level than before the elections”. back to the table and try to work out some sort of context where dialogue can take place. We are discussing The noble Lord, Lord Corbett of Castle Vale, has human rights in Iran at a time when mistrust between already made these points. the Muslim world and the West is probably at its I also recall the statement by Robert Cooper, the height—I hope it goes no higher. This is a difficult General-Secretary of the Foreign Affairs Council, which time. It is paramount upon us to open up these blocked is also how I see the situation: channels of communication and start again. Britain “We urge Iran to reconsider the opportunity offered by this has a special position: we are part of the European agreement to meet the humanitarian needs of its people and to Union and we have the transatlantic alliance. Far from engage seriously with us in dialogue and negotiations. This remains thinking that the time is now passed for proper dialogue our consistent objective”. and bridge-building internally and externally, it is These are sad times when we think about human never more important than now to try again. rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran. Condemnation will not necessarily provide us with enough progress to resolve these issues. We need to remember when we 6.05 pm talk about and contextualise common values that different Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, we are grateful to points of reference arise in the thinking of those on the noble Lord, Lord Corbett of Castle Vale, for the other side of the dialogue which bring in connotations initiating this important debate today. Iran is not a quite different to those we intend. Perhaps background country that can be easily caricatured. It is blessed knowledge or bitter historical memories may arise. I with vast natural resources, the world’s fifth largest recall briefing both the Islamic Council of Iran global oil reserve and an intelligent population with a representative, Dr Larijani, when he first came to long and impressive history and now with a thirst for Brussels and Javier Solana, the predecessor of the change and development. Yet it has one of the worst noble Baroness, Lady Ashton. I felt concerned before human rights records, ranked 145 out of 167 in the they went into their dialogue that they were talking Economist Intelligence Unit’s democracy index. completely different languages. One great problem is It is hard to know where to begin in the seemingly that the Islamic Republic has been so isolated for so unending human rights abuses, with key issues including long and so far away in every single way. Eurospeak is a total disregard for the right to life, the right to a fair not easy anyway, but even the language of human trial, the rights to freedom of speech, religion and rights as we interpret them does not somehow bring in equality, the rights to freedom of assembly and expression the same connotations and values that we identify. and the prohibition of torture, to name but a few. A false understanding creates different judgments There have been reports of extra-judicial killings, scores and breeds mistrust in a way that we do not wish it to. of civilian deaths during peaceful protests and of the Mutual mistrust kills mutual understanding and rape, ill treatment and torture of prisoners in detention, culminates in exclusion of dialogue and the other, many of whom have been detained without just cause, especially if an established, modern block, such as the access to justice, medical care or their families. European Union, wants to set up dialogue with a All this is set to a backdrop of concern over Iran’s society which I might describe as in transition to nuclear programme, which despite considerable modernity, and which also has in it confusing elements. international pressure, including sanctions, continues Human rights are common currency today in our unabated. Ahmadinejad has said that the Islamic republic dialogue. They and democracy are discussed absolutely will continue to enrich uranium up to the 20 per cent everywhere. Elections and election monitoring happen level, which is a significant step on the way to making everywhere. Yet in all the countries where I have weapons-grade material. Astonishingly, as the noble GC 225 Iran: Human Rights[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Iran: Human Rights GC 226

Lord, Lord Anderson, reminded us, Iran is expected Iran change the direction of its nuclear programme. to seek membership of the 47-member Human Rights That is in response to my noble and learned friend Council in elections in May.On 15 February, Mohammad Lord Archer. We believe that it is vital to keep the Larijani, secretary-general of Iran’s high council for issue separate from human rights to ensure that the human rights, told the United Nations that Iran was, sanctions are effective and achievable. We continue to “in full compliance with the relevant international commitments lead the international community in condemning repeated it has taken on in a genuine and long-term approach to safeguard violations of human rights in Iran and we will continue human rights”. to assess the appropriate forums for further action on But Michael Posner, the United States assistant secretary human rights. I shall return to that a little later. It is of state, said that Iran’s statement to the council was, important to bear witness to the efforts of the Government “strikingly at odds with the reality on the ground”. of Iran to force their people into silent acquiescence Furthermore, Iranian officials have ruled out the and yet to acknowledge the very brave refusal of many notion of an external investigation into the state of of those same people to accept that. their domestic human rights. No Human Rights Council On an important point made by my noble friend official has visited the country since 2005, and numerous Lord Corbett, and referred to by a number of other requests from special investigators have remained noble Lords, clearly it is not for the British Government unanswered. As long as this type of woeful behaviour to decide who runs Iran; however, we must defend the continues, Iran’s human rights record should never basic principles of human rights and governance. These disappear from our radar. are not western principles; they are universal. My Finally, I have five questions for the Minister. First, noble and learned friend Lord Archer made that point have the Government any evidence that the scale of on the desire to investigate further the issue of economic protests in Iran is diminishing? Secondly, does he feel sanctions. that recent clashes between opposition supporters and In a very thoughtful contribution, the noble Baroness, government forces following the deaths of the dissident Lady Nicholson, talked about cultural differences. cleric, Grand Ayatollah Hoseyn Ali Montazeri, have The key is that there are cultural differences in Iran. I further undermined the legitimacy of the Iranian regime? think the cultural difference is entirely between those Thirdly, what discussions has the Minister had with who see a modern, democratic country looking forward—I his Iranian counterparts to end the on-going persecution agree with everything said by the noble Baroness, of the Baha’is in Iran? Fourthly, what discussions have Lady Rawlings, for it is a country with enormous the Government had with Iran and our allies about resources and enormously talented people, who want reducing Iran’s nuclear projects? Finally, what contacts the opportunity to expand—and those who would have Her Majesty’s Government had with the look backwards. In that sense the cultural differences revolutionary guards? are not between Iran and the neighbouring countries, Britain, the UN, the EU or any other country, but 6.10 pm concern those within the country. We have seen that since the elections of last year. It is not for the British Lord Brett: My Lords, I, too, congratulate the Government to determine the outcome of elections in noble Lord, Lord Corbett, on securing a debate on that country. this important and worthy subject and in particular for the powerful indictment he gave of the deteriorating My noble friend Lady Gibson made a point about human rights record of Iran. It rightly continues to the role of women in Iran. Women have played a command the attention and concern of this House, prominent and courageous role in the post-election the international community, and most importantly protests, and dozens connected with the campaign for the people of Iran. equality and the Mujahedin movement have been The determination shown by protestors on Iranian sentenced to imprisonment and flogging on charges of streets since the disputed election last June clearly acting against national security and propaganda against demonstrates their strength of desire for democracy, the system—something which must, in any circumstances, human rights and fundamental freedoms. Nothing in be condemned. Yet Iran signed up to international my brief says whether those are increasing or decreasing commitments, which this regime continues to abuse. but the fact that they continue is very clear. I shall seek The treatment of demonstrators, as the noble Baroness, to provide more flesh on that skeleton, if I may. The Lady Gibson, said, bodes ill for any improvement in Iranian people have raised genuine concerns, which Iran’s human rights record in the short term. You only their Government have a responsibility to address. have to look at the detention of people during December’s Sadly, their Government have responded with violence, Ashura protests and the February revolutionary brutality and oppression, as a number of noble Lords commemoration. have very succinctly and clearly expressed. The Iranian Government are cynical in their response There are two threads running through the debate: to the universal periodic review of the Human Rights one is the Iranian record on human rights and whether Council. Its response testifies to a complete state of sanctions on that issue are appropriate; the second is denial by Iran’s leaders, who pretend that there are no the separate but important nuclear issue and whether significant problems whatever. Yet observers, not only there is a case for sanctions. We are clear that sanctions British observers, would say that the human rights must lead to a result which, in this case, is to bring situation in Iran is probably the worst that it has been Iran to a productive, sensible dialogue on the nuclear in 20 years. Freedom of expression has been curtailed, issue. For that reason, sanctions under consideration and the Iranian Government have sought to crush any should be targeted, proportionate and reversible should form of dissent from their own people. Newspapers GC 227 Iran: Human Rights[LORDS] Iran: Human Rights GC 228

[LORD BRETT] presidential election. The Iranian government have are banned if they carry reports considered unfavourable started 2010 in the same deplorable vein, sentencing a to the authorities. Access to the internet is sporadic, number of protesters to death for the crime of mohareb, mobile phone networks are intermittently switched acting against God. Many of those convicted of capital off, and satellites carrying international news have offences for non-violent activity in defence of their been jammed. rights are members of ethnic minority groups, who According to the International Press Institute, Iran represent a convenient scapegoat for a Government now leads the world in jailing journalists. On the desperate to deflect responsibility for their failings. weekend preceding the 11 February Revolution Iranian regions with large minority populations, such commemorations, some 65 were reported detained. as the Kurds in the northwest, the Arabs in the west Those journalists who are tried often receive lengthy and the Baluchis in the south-east suffer long-standing prison sentences for attempting to bring information repression and economic disadvantage. to their fellow citizens and the outside world—information A number of points were made. First, on the point which in most countries of the world, not just western my noble friend made about the Baha’i faith, it has Europe or North America, would be expected to be been subject to mounting persecution since the elections. available. Two recent examples of this persecution The authorities seek to vilify the faith, deeming it include Bahman Ahmadi Amouie, sentenced to seven responsible for recent violence on the Tehran streets. years and four months and 32 lashes and Saeed Laylaz, The prolonged incarceration and psychological torment who was sentenced to nine years for maintaining ties of individuals is unacceptable. It provides a strong with foreigners and working to overthrow the example of a flawed judicial process. Government—which means that he had contact with someone outside Iran or outside Iran’s leadership. The noble Lord, Lord Corbett, raised the question of a British dual national who was in court in Iran The 10 days of dawn leading up to the anniversary earlier this month. When we saw reports of this, our on 11 February were marked by a chilling campaign of embassy in Iran immediately sought clarification from mass arrests, executions and calls for public hangings. the Iranian Foreign Minister, who subsequently informed This culminated in a heavy security presence on us that no British citizen had been in court on those 11 February to deter any opposition protests during dates. We pressed that and the Iranian authorities, the regime’s show of defiance. Since June, countless based on the understanding that an individual may be demonstrators have been beaten on the streets by a British-Iranian dual national, do not recognise that police and plain-clothed government supporters for dual nationality and therefore would not accept any peacefully exercising their right to assembly. Many British interest in the case. were arrested and have subsequently appeared in televised show trials, making what are widely seen as forced On the question of the Human Rights Council, confessions and self-denunciations. The Iranian people raised by my noble friend Lord Anderson, there are are all too aware of the means by which such sham five candidates—as he rightly said. We have received confessions are elicited. Widespread allegations of no indication that any of the five candidates wish to torture and abuse of detainees have emerged widely. withdraw. We encourage contested elections to ensure that the human rights credentials of members running Iran has committed itself to internationally accepted for election are under scrutiny. We encourage all UN standards of justice, and has signed international protocols states to consider the human rights record of candidates to that effect, which should extend to safeguarding the when voting. That is set out in the founding resolutions treatment of detainees and the right to a fair trial, but of the Human Rights Council itself. clearly does not. These show trials are deficient in many ways, and it is all the more concerning that a Finally, my noble friend Lord Lea asked how we number of death sentences have been handed down deal with the issue of nuclear sanctions. The position during these trials. On 28 January, the Foreign Secretary is that the IAEA board in November signalled yet expressed his appal at the execution of Mohammad again the international community’s concern about Reza Ali-Zamani and Arash Rahmanipour, sentenced Iranian nuclear progress and expressed its regret that to death during these grotesque parodies of justice. Iran refused to meet with the E3+3 countries to discuss Rahmanipour was just 19 at the time of his execution, its nuclear programme. We are now pushing for but he is by no means the youngest Iranian to have multilateral sanctions that will affect decision-makers faced the noose. As my noble friend Lord Corbett in the regime, with the aim of bringing Iran to productive emphasised, juveniles are not in any way inviolate. and sensible dialogue. We would consider tightening Forty juvenile offenders have been executed in Iran existing sanctions and extending them to other sections since 1999, and an estimated 130 young offenders targeted in the regime. This probably echoes the point await a similar fate on death rows. This is simply made by the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson. We are wrong. It is also in clear violation of internationally looking for a change of heart, bringing a dialogue to accepted norms and standards. The Iranian Government the table. cannot avoid knowing this, not least because they have Even at this late stage, we hope that the external ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political pressures applied—even by debates in a Committee of Rights. your Lordships’ House—will have some impact and As my noble friend pointed out, these death penalty that we will move forward so that that great country issues are of major concern, as Iran is second only to can be restored. It has had 100 years of blight in one China in the number of people it executes. We know of form or another. It is about time it was able to emerge. 388 executions in 2009, at least 100 of which were The democratic movement within Iran is making it carried out in the days immediately following the June clear that it is determined to emerge. GC 229 Iran: Human Rights[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Public Services: Co-location GC 230

Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, I thank all By applying more entrepreneurial business principles noble Lords who have taken part in this— and developing partnerships with the business, public and voluntary sectors, today we own a three-acre site The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn): that is run by 177 staff. The centre manages over I am sorry, but there is no right of reply to this debate, 125 different activities each week, and on site there is a unless there is a question for the Minister to clarify polyclinic, which brings together not just the biomedical something. model of healthcare but a wider range of other public services through an integrated approach. Two thousand 6.23 pm people each week pass through the site, and with our partners, the housing company Poplar HARCA and Sitting suspended. Leaside Regeneration Ltd, we are putting together a £1 billion regeneration programme on an area of land Public Services: Co-location the same size as the Olympic park on the other side of the road. Today, this church-based project has Question for Short Debate demonstrated new ways of delivering public services that are breaking new ground and challenging the 6.30 pm traditional silos of government whose old-fashioned, Asked By Lord Mawson expensive, bureaucratic approaches have so often failed to engage effectively with local residents and raise To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they their quality of life. have considered co-locating public services in under- Three years ago, I was approached by the then used church buildings. general secretary of my small denomination, the United Reformed Church. The church was becoming increasingly The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness concerned about the scale of the problems it was McIntosh of Hudnall): Before the debate proceeds, I facing with the condition and efficient use of its 1,700 remind the Committee that in the event of a vote in buildings. I was told that many of them were listed the Chamber, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes and were a drain on limited resources. It was a serious from the sound of the Division Bell and 10 minutes problem that called for a new solution. Three and a will be added to the time allotted to the debate. half years later, my colleagues and I have created a new property agency for the United Reformed Church, Lord Mawson: My Lords, there are nearly 50,000 called One Church, 100 Uses, and here I must declare church buildings in England; 16,200 of them belong an interest as a director of the company. This community to the Church of England, and the rest are mostly interest company, a social enterprise, is now actively owned by the Catholic Church, the free churches and involved in the redevelopment of more than 30 church other denominations. Many sit on prime sites at the sites across England. Working with the Church of centre of their communities, yet they are often large Scotland, we find that it shares similar problems. Yet and underused. There is a growing trend to return underneath the apparent difficulties, we are discovering church buildings to their original function not just as opportunities. We have discovered the rich rewards places of worship, but places of assembly, service and that appear when local communities begin to provide celebration for the whole of their community. This services for themselves. Not only does it save money, it ancient tradition, as the right reverend Prelate the creates healthier, more responsible people and stimulates Bishop of London reminds us in the report Churches an enterprise economy, which in turn encourages social and Faith Buildings: Realising the Potential, has in cohesion. That is not a bad win-win scenario. more recent times been overlaid by distaste for mixing The church is fundamental to this outcome. Indeed, sacred and secular, but this dichotomy is increasingly it has always played a central role in the care and being challenged. This underused asset base is considerable service of local communities. The idea of the servant and, because of shortness of time, I want to focus my church goes back 2,000 years. The successful recent words today on church buildings, not on properties amendments to the Equality Bill illustrate that there is owned by other faith communities. As socio-economic still a stomach in the Christian churches for us to play conditions get tough and public finances are inevitably this important role. In past times, the church was reduced, we need to relook at this property portfolio. coming to this caring/provider agenda from a position I know from many years of experience working of authority and power. Today, it comes to it from a with churches across the country, today as a non- position of weakness and vulnerability. Perhaps that stipendiary minister in the United Reformed Church, in itself is an opportunity. that the users of these buildings can often be small If the church stops hiding behind committees and elderly congregations who find it very difficult to archdeacons, and instead shows strong business-like maintain or use effectively the asset that history has leadership, it can play an important neutral role in bequeathed to them. As many noble Lords will know, bringing partners to the table and in opening up the Bromley-by-Bow Centre, which I founded in East conversations with the health provider, the local authority, London, began in such unpromising circumstances. the school, the housing provider and the shop. We are Twenty-six years ago, I arrived as the minister to be doing that on a number of sites across the country. greeted by 12 elderly people, all over 70, in a 200-seater church, sitting where they had always sat. It looked as The church, the local school and the health centre though the dead had been carried out and no one had are often the only long-term stable players in a local noticed. community, as governments change and countless new GC 231 Public Services: Co-location[LORDS] Public Services: Co-location GC 232

[LORD MAWSON] also need practical politicians experienced in the workings policies pass our door. Successive new policies can of the world. Church-based developments can provide often further fragment local partnerships in practice them with an opportunity to redefine the role of the and can prevent positive action. But few Ministers politician as the practical person and the bringer of stay around long enough to observe the practical partners to the table. This is where our politics will be consequences of all this activity. renewed; not here in Westminster. Politicians on all sides have been talking the language New Labour says that it believes in community, but of joined-up thinking for some time now, but often it this Government have often produced lots of strategies, is not happening where it is most needed. Building policies, committees and legislation rather than getting partnerships is a complicated business, especially given involved in the practical realities of a local neighbourhood. the contradictory and disconnected commissioning I see little evidence that any future Government have processes that are in place. The connections and woken up to this opportunity either. Politicians need partnerships that could bring these buildings to life, to be grounded in real projects; the micro and the deepen community cohesion and use limited funds far macro are connected, as any business person knows. I more efficiently, are just not happening. I could illustrate seek to present to the Minister today an opportunity this in Glasgow, Bradford, Oldham, Gainsborough that can enable us to use limited public funds more and Poole in Dorset, but there is not time. Believe me, efficiently, to bring life to underused assets and to it is a serious issue. create social cohesion and a spirit of enterprise in After 60 years of the state promising and often some of our most vulnerable communities. failing to provide, let us encourage choice and diversity. Finally, I encourage the Minister to take a closer Let us not assume that the public sector will deliver it look at these local opportunities to use public money all. It will not. In hard economic times people have to more effectively. I ask Her Majesty’s Opposition whether huddle together for warmth. In rural communities, the it is not developments such as this that provide a pub, church, post office and village hall are often not practical opportunity in communities to explore what sustainable on their own, which is why there are now statements about a post-bureaucratic world might actually 12 post offices in Anglican church buildings and in mean in practice. one of our developments we are looking at a police I thank the Minister for taking part in this debate base in the church. and the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, for a helpful Perhaps I may describe just one example of a discussion of this subject, and I look forward to working partnership on the ground where we hope to hearing what they both have to say. develop some of these themes; namely, Harmans Water, Bracknell. The community centre across the square from the church closed due to health and safety concerns. 6.41 pm A small library next to the church is open only 16 hours a week. A new housing development brings some Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, I venture Section 106 funding and a whole new community. The into this field as someone who has been a Methodist church, which is home to both the United Reformed superintendent minister for more years than I care to Church and Anglican congregations, already hosts a remember. I am still an active supernumerary minister range of community services and has insufficient space. on the local Methodist circuit, and I welcome the With the support of the local authority and Bracknell opportunity to think things through which the noble Forest Homes—the local housing association—our Lord, Lord Mawson, has given me this evening. plan is to build a new centre for the community with a There are many, many answers to the question wide range of community facilities, services and a new because buildings, areas and congregations differ a library. There will still be a librarian for probably only great deal. Many church buildings, as we have already 16 hours a week, but it is hoped that the library, which heard, are already in community use in one way or perhaps will be next to a new cafe, will be accessible another. Three years ago, I went to close one old for more hours with self-service and will be joined by Methodist chapel in the village of Glan Conwy and many other information providers. The police want a found 16 people there. They did not want it closed help point and the local children’s centre, the primary because on Monday it was the place for the playgroup, school and the college need a kitchen where families as it was on Thursday. The local choir met there on can learn about healthy living, et cetera. Tuesday, and Wednesday night was bingo night. I do So what are the key messages I should like the not think that John Wesley would have approved, but Minister to take from this debate? First, the credit we just have to accept that this all helped in the crunch has caused many large-scale regeneration projects community. to stall. I know that because I am involved in one of Other things happen in our churches: arts classes, them. However, often smaller-scale local developments language centres, play schools, elderly citizens’ meeting involving church buildings and the clusters of buildings places, youth clubs and police help points. I do not around them are being missed. Developments such as often look on the dark side—I may be known as a bit this are less risky and can provide a real opportunity of an optimist—but I can see a dark side with which I to lift the local quality of an area. But they can cannot come to terms. We hear that there are many happen only if everyone huddles together and pools opportunities in town centres, but rural areas are their budgets. different. Who wants a chapel that is in a field and To grasp these kinds of local opportunities we literally miles from anywhere? There is no real opportunity require focused leadership in the public sector and the to use such a chapel for a community or government churches. These projects do not happen by chance. We purpose. GC 233 Public Services: Co-location[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Public Services: Co-location GC 234

I know that English Heritage, and Cadw in Wales, to even take the burden of the decision to close from are aware of the various situations and how the listing the shoulders of the local congregation. The painful of buildings can create difficulties—we have already decisions can be shared, but someone other than me heard about some of them—in planning, in the change must look at whether there is a way to tackle insurance of use, in the sale of property, in maintenance costs premiums. and in costs to make over a building. The development A younger membership with more energy and vitality of church buildings can sometimes be restricted because might be able to maintain buildings and have the of listing regulations. vision to adapt demand to the 21st century. I know The local Methodist church in the Conwy Valley that it happens in some places. Only last week, I was in village of Penmachno was listed about three years one local church converted from a warehouse where it before it was decided to close it. It had been a thriving was standing room only. That was wonderful, but the church in a quarrying, rural area, but as the quarries previous Sunday, a week yesterday, I gave the closing had closed and farm labourers were few there was service in a little village chapel in a part of Llandudno nothing else to do except close it. Yet it was a listed called Penrhyn-side. When I became a minister there, building and after all these years is still not adapted many years ago, there were six places of worship. One for any other use, because they are fighting planning by one, they have closed—I am going to try to do and listing regulations—immense problems for purchasers something about this—and the last service in the who would want to make it into a home. In many rural village was held a week yesterday. It was very sad, but areas, I honestly do not see either central or local the people keeping it going were all over 80 years of government having any realistic alternative for the use age, and there was a limit to what they were able to do. of church buildings. Populations are few and widely So there is a different pattern. People, not buildings, scattered. They commute to work, if there is any and if make churches. But if the building is in a state of they are of an age to work—after all, we have a very disrepair or needs special attention, we have to meet ageing population in our villages. The community that that need. Of the six chapels in the little village, one was not able to support a chapel is also the community has become the village hall. Three chapels have become that faces a lack of vision. I do not have a vision of houses. The one that I closed the other day has not yet what we could realistically use those buildings for. decided what it will do—it will probably be put on the We know about falling numbers at services. There open market—and one has been demolished. You are few to keep a local church or chapel going. Possibly, need only one village hall, not five or six. They cannot it is a denomination that is unable to provide pastoral all be adapted. Perhaps local councils or the Welsh care or ministerial oversight. In another chapel that I Assembly Government can give some leadership. But, am thinking of, there is one officer left—and that in many instances, I do not think that there is any officer is of a good age and is not able to take realistic proposal that could save our buildings. responsibility for that building. He will, possibly, open the church door once a month, but they cannot cope; 6.50 pm even with ministerial oversight, there are not the people The Lord Bishop of Leicester: My Lords, I am very there to shoulder the burdens and responsibilities. grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, for bringing I do not know whether you have been phoned up at this issue to our attention. It must be 35 years since, as two or three o’clock in the morning to hear, “Ah, a youngish curate in East London, I found myself in a Mr Roberts, the slates have been blown off the roof of post-war restored Victorian church that seated the chapel”. That would be because they have landed 1,100 people. On my first Sunday morning, I counted in somebody else’s back garden. What do you do? I 48 people in the congregation and more than 1,000 empty must say that I did not go to attend to it in those dark seats. We spent the next five years working hard on hours. There is nobody there to take responsibility, but completely rebuilding that church and redeveloping the tiny congregation sometimes does not want to the site. Now, there is a multi-purpose centre with close the chapel. Perhaps they were christened or provision for sheltered accommodation for the elderly, married there; they have spent all of their lives there, a general practitioner facility, language teaching for and it will break their hearts but there is no alternative. Bengali women and counselling rooms, as well as a I would like to see churches of all denominations place of worship. working together—and they are, much more than in That set me out on a path which I have sought to the past—to solve some of those questions. It has follow in my ministry over the years since. In the happened; we know that some church buildings are 1980s, I found myself as the parish priest in Canvey used by two or three different denominations. Yet Island. There was a transplanted East London population then, instead of that one individual having to face the of 40,000 people, many of whom were young families burden, we need some outside advice. I do not know detached from their extended family networks in London whether we could work together—it must be on an and often with very severe family pressures and difficulties. ecumenical basis—because they struggle with, “How We adapted the church buildings, in partnership with can we afford to repair the roof? How can we even Essex County Council social services department and afford the insurance premium?”. I do not know whether the Children’s Society, into a family centre which some other churches are like my own Methodist church; provided all kinds of provision for needy, young families. some communities with a congregation of six have an That provision has endured for 25 years. insurance premium on their chapel of £1,200 a year. The issue which the noble Lord has brought to our They cannot possibly meet that sort of demand, so I attention is very close to our hearts. For most of its suggest that the Government could somehow lead on history, the Church of England has had a vision for its this. We want expert guidance, helping sometimes church buildings as the centres of community life. GC 235 Public Services: Co-location[LORDS] Public Services: Co-location GC 236

[THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER] inner-city church in a largely Muslim neighbourhood. Medieval church buildings were designed to be places In the Church of Christ the King in Beaumont Leys, a of education, social care and community cohesion. white outer estate, the church is used extensively by Part of our mission as churches is to work among and groups supporting large numbers of transient asylum for the benefit of the whole local community, and not seekers and other destitute people. Leicester Cathedral just for the benefit of those who attend. The two plays host to the Welcome Project, which assists asylum biggest assets which the churches bring to this task are seekers, and is presently planning for a major new our buildings and volunteers. As has been mentioned, diocesan centre reaching out to those not in employment, the Church of England has 16,200 parish churches education or training. All these activities are taking across the country. In many places, they are not only place in living churches that are still parish churches, the oldest public space, but the only remaining public part of the parochial church system and still first and space once the shop, post office, school, pub and so on foremost places of worship. have disappeared. The 2005 parochial returns register found that 44 per The Church of England, for which I speak, is cent of churches now have lavatories and 37 per cent especially well placed to serve as a potential service have kitchen facilities. Four years on, the figures are delivery point as it has a presence in every community. likely to be considerably higher. Such amenities enable Its unique legal status means that its churches provide churches to host a wide range of community events. a service to all who live within the parish—whether The Pastoral (Amendment) Measure 2006, which came people want to get married or to use its facilities for into force in January 2007, allows the lease of part of a funerals or in other ways. My colleague, the right consecrated church building, provided the church reverend Prelate the Bishop of London, in his opening continues primarily to be used as a place of worship. presentation to the recent Church of England synod This enables longer-term occupancy by outside groups debate on the potential of church buildings, said: and allows them to meet additional funding conditions. “We are the custodians of a countrywide infrastructure which This is a role that we want to encourage national, would take billions”— regional and local authorities and other bodies to of pounds— recognise, and it is a role that we are encouraging our “to replicate and which has huge potential at a time of financial churches to welcome, for example, by encouraging stringency”. parishes fully to engage with the development of their There is much research available to show that churches, local community plan and dioceses to participate in as well as other faith groups, have a special contribution local strategic partnerships, local area agreements and to make. They are deeply rooted in community life, local action groups. There is an increasing number of able to reach out to the most vulnerable groups and area or regional Christian and multi-faith groupings, are well placed to provide high-quality local public as well as individuals at diocesan level, already actively services. In recent years, many surveys have been carried participating in LSPs and other local, community and out—funded by regional development agencies, voluntary sector networks and alliances. This is beginning government offices and local authorities—to map the to create new partnerships and give us increased access contribution of faith groups in their local communities. to a more level playing field in terms of access to One such survey has been done in my home city of existing and new areas of funding. This in turn has Leicester and demonstrates that more than 400 different strengthened the church’s capacity to develop the use community groups, sponsored by the various faith of its buildings for worship and mission to the wider communities in a highly ethnically diverse city, are community. reaching the most hard-to-reach communities across However, we cannot continue to sustain all this the city. The Church of England is already playing its activity or reach the full potential of church buildings part, and churches are increasingly becoming vital as community resources without increased support partners in building strong communities. Examples from various partners, which must include government have come to the Cathedral and Church Buildings at all levels. That is why this debate is so important. Division of the Church of England of the many The 2004 report, Building Faith in our Future, set out varied and different ways that church buildings are to celebrate church buildings and the contribution being used by and for the community. They include they make to their local communities. It called upon churches as locations for major civic events; as locations government and the community and voluntary sector for social and community activities, including support to work with us in partnership. The report sets out for the elderly, the homeless, asylum seekers and so on; many ways in which those partnerships can be built. and as places of education, attracting school visits, In January this year, St Peter’s Church, Peterchurch, UK online centres, Sure Start centres, nurseries, adult in the diocese of Hereford completed a project to education centres, classrooms, after-school clubs, libraries, refurbish the interior of this grade 1 church. Obviously, heritage centres and conference centres. These are all it will not be possible for every church to be so examples of provision already in place. Post offices, adapted nor, due to location or other factors, will it be doctors’ and dentists’ surgeries, health centres, gymnasia, possible to find such important extended uses but, community shops, police stations, cafes and farmers’ where they arise, it is vital that we pursue the possibilities. markets have already been mentioned. By using these buildings to their full potential, they In my own diocese of Leicester, the St Philip’s can become a real resource for their local communities. Centre is at the forefront of resourcing the church and They can build social capital, serve community building public and private sector organisations, including the and be a vital resource to the people of England. They police, teachers and health workers, in faith literacy, a are precious to the whole community and an asset vital skill in public service today. It is based in an beyond price that deserves all our interest and investment. GC 237 Public Services: Co-location[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Public Services: Co-location GC 238

7pm One point that perhaps strays a little from buildings and is much more about the churches is how local Lord Tope: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, government engages with faith groups and churches Lord Mawson, for initiating this debate and raising a and vice versa. In my view, faith groups should always very interesting and important subject. It has certainly be represented effectively in local strategic partnerships—I stimulated in me considerable thought. Prompted by think the Minister would agree that that is the case on the debate, I have looked at and learnt more about the good LSPs. I stress the word “effectively”; they should organisation of which he is part—One Church, be there not simply because it is good to have them 100 Uses—and was taken with the excellent and innovative listed among the membership but because they can work it is doing and the many excellent projects which play an effective role as partners. Inevitably, there is he did not have time to develop. In this debate, I would always a mismatch between the statutory partners have been more interested to hear of some of the with all their resources, even in hard times, and any problems to which he alluded but also did not have community or voluntary group that simply does not time to expand on. Here, we need to address problems have that infrastructure readily available to it. and find solutions rather than simply congratulate ourselves on a number of excellent projects, wonderful Nevertheless, a good partnership will work as a though that is. good partnership. That will inevitably lead to more innovative thinking, new and different ways of providing I reread the 2008 report referred to by the noble services for and with the local community, and to Lord, Lord Mawson, entitled Churches and Faith returning church buildings very much to the sort of Buildings: Realising the Potential. I hope that the use for which they were originally intended, as the Minister will be able to bring us more up to date on noble Lord has said—not just in their important role some of the government actions which were recommended as a centre of worship but in the equally important in that government report. The report was primarily role as a centre of the community. about enabling faith groups, and the third sector in general, to learn about and have better access to I have two particular interests in the way in which funding. It is a hugely important subject, which I do some of this might happen. I have the responsibility in not diminish at all, but it was rather less full on how to my local authority for the public library service, which get access to the levers of power, particularly at local is a great interest of mine. Indeed, I ought to declare level. an interest as vice-chair of the All-Party Group on Libraries, Literacy and Information Management. At Here I declare my interest, not as one with diminishing all times, but particularly at financial times, the library congregations but as a London borough councillor for service, particularly branch libraries, come under 36 years—I still am a London borough councillor. I enormous pressure. There is a great fear that they will have rather different experience from my noble friend be in the forefront of financial cuts, and sometimes it Lord Roberts. In London, we do not have too many is right and appropriate that branch libraries should chapels in the middle of fields but we have an increasing close simply because they are in the wrong place. I number of underused church buildings of all would prefer to say that they should be relocated denominations where there is very real potential. The rather than closed. noble Lord, Lord Mawson, referred to considerably underused property assets. They are more than property I wonder whether in some cases relocation to an assets: I think we all recognise that churches are very underused church building could be very appropriate much more than simply buildings and often are very for a branch library.I do not have time to wax eloquent—if historic buildings. They are, always have been and I could—on libraries, but they are very much more always should be the centre of a local community. The than just places for books and the use of the internet, initiative to put churches at the centre of communities important though those core businesses are. Several more than perhaps they have been in recent years is branch libraries in my own borough are self-service—the greatly to be welcomed. noble Lord, Lord Mawson, referred to self-service libraries—enabling them to stay open for much longer. We in local government know that there are bad times ahead and that, whoever wins the general election, I shall give two brief examples. In the first couple of we shall be facing a very severe financial time over the months of this year libraries in my borough have been next few years, probably the like of which I have not issuing freedom passes in London to anyone over known in my 36 years. There have been some good 60 who wishes to renew their freedom pass. My borough times and a few bad times, such as when Anthony is one of the few that are using public central and Crosland told me, within a year of my being elected, branch libraries to do this, and the libraries have been that the party was over, and it has been like that ever packed with people who have not been to a library since. We are in for some difficult times which will since they were children and who note that libraries require all of us in local government to think outside have changed just a little in the past 50 or 60 years. the box and to be very much more innovative in our Many of them are going on to use libraries. That may approach to how we provide services for our communities. be an innovative use for some underused church buildings. It is of particular interest to me that we should be At the other end of the age scale, we use our library much more innovative in the way in which we engage every Friday evening for what would otherwise be with our communities. In a period of financial cutbacks called a youth centre. This Friday is live music and it will be especially difficult but important to engage open mic night for young performers, which is rather with the communities, otherwise the mismatch and the different from the traditional image of the “shh” disengagement will be all the more severe. public library. GC 239 Public Services: Co-location[LORDS] Public Services: Co-location GC 240

[LORD TOPE] services such as mother and toddler groups, playgroups The other issue to which I want to allude is very and drop-ins for youth groups or elderly people, to much a London issue and on a rather larger scale. name but a few. Some churches may not like the idea Over the next seven years, London education authorities of having a commercial activity under their roof, but will have to find an additional 50,000 primary school there are many non-commercial activities to think places. That is a huge problem. Normally we talk about. At a time when our essential public buildings about a funding problem—the Minister may be pleased and services are being scaled down or closed altogether, to know that I will not allude to that particularly—but we are fast losing these vital spaces and opportunities this is also a space problem. In many schools, there is for our daily activities, or to just come together to the physical problem of where to put additional classes, meet and talk. Co-locating key public services on the even if you can afford them. If you add to that my same premises offers benefits to service users in terms party’s aspiration for smaller class sizes, it is even more of lower journey times to get to a service that they of an issue. It is clearly not possible or appropriate for require, and to providers, in that they would benefit many church buildings to accommodate primary school from reduced overhead costs, such as the duplication classes, but it must be possible for a number of church of rent and building maintenance. buildings to do so provided that the buildings are Often churches are on large, central plots of land, properly built and designed for use as a classroom and which can be used and developed to provide vital are properly equipped. Any problems can be overcome, community activities. For example, the noble Lord, and probably more cheaply, than by trying to build Lord Mawson, has developed a garden centre on new classrooms. excess church land. Many churches support that idea, Those are two brief examples. We know that we are as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester in hard times and that local government will need to said. In 2004, the Church of England published a be a lot more creative and innovative in its thinking Green Paper on its ideas for facilitating such a over the coming years, and I hope very much that it development, and in March 2009 the Government will start to work much more closely with the churches, outlined a blueprint to help churches and local authorities particularly in respect of the huge underused property work closer together to deliver a greater range of asset to which the noble Lord referred. community services. What progress has been made since then? Maybe this question would be better directed 7.10 pm at the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester, but can the Minister say of the 16,000 Church of Earl Cathcart: I was beginning to feel inadequate as England churches, how many have started offering this debate unfolded. The first two speakers were public services and what measures have been taken to ministers and the third a Bishop, so it was of huge engage other denominations and faiths so that they comfort when the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said that he can open up their places of worship to local communities? was a councillor. I am not a minister and do not think What is being done to ensure that church and public that the Minister is a minister, as his training is as an alike are properly informed and supported about these accountant. So I make that the church three and the possibilities? laymen three. Sadly, we now live more and more in a secular I thank and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord society. The church used to be one of the hubs of the Mawson, not only on introducing this debate, but for community, a vital component in community cohesion. the excellent work that he has already done on co-location The church today is continually looking for ways to of public services and utilising underused churches. engage with its communities. Surely this would be an His portfolio is truly outstanding, and I hope that we excellent way to achieve that and one way to bring the can develop and expand his project across the UK. church back to the centre of community life. This There are thought to be 46,500 churches, chapels and might ruffle the feathers of the right reverend Prelate meeting houses in the United Kingdom, of which but all too often, especially in the rural areas that I see, 37,000 are in England alone, so the scope for co-location the church is rather distinct from the communities. of public services is enormous. That is sad. Many churches are used, if they are lucky, for a couple of days a week for various services, and others The best if not the only way of achieving the maybe once a week. The church in my village in required results is probably at a grass-roots level. At Norfolk is used once a month; otherwise, it remains my church in Norfolk, for example, there would need locked. Maybe there is a difference in rural areas, as to be discussions between the parish council, the parish we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Roberts. priest and maybe the local school. As chairman of our Examples of the successes that we have heard of this parish, I have heard nothing of the Government’s evening are all about urban churches; so there is plans to help churches and local authorities work probably a difference due to the size of the communities together. Maybe I missed it. Have the Minister’s plans involved. It may be easier to do it in urban areas than filtered down to parish levels and, if not, should he in small rural parishes. But there is scope there too, no not ensure that this happens? doubt. As for the church, the local vicar is in a difficult There are many other more everyday co-uses for position. Presumably he would need to ask permission church buildings, such as cafes, cyber-cafes, shops and from his superiors for other approved activities to take farmers’ markets; they can also be used for cultural place in his church. In the same vein, if the bishops activities, such as exhibitions, drama performances, think it would be a good idea, as I believe they do, and lectures, rehearsals and concerts; or for community a good way of bringing communities together in the GC 241 Public Services: Co-location[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Public Services: Co-location GC 242 church and utilising the church facilities, should they have been through recently, when economic conditions not ensure that this policy filters down to parish-priest are less favourable. As the noble Lord, Lord Tope, level? It may well do. I am looking now at the right said, this is the time to be innovative, particularly at reverend Prelate. What better way is there to get the local authority level. The days are gone when the church back into the centre of the community? public sector could deliver virtually all these services Some churches and cathedrals already provide venues in a top-down manner. If services are to meet the for many other uses, as we have heard. Yet the percentage needs of communities, communities themselves have is too small. The portfolio of the noble Lord, Lord to be engaged. Faith groups are deeply rooted in their Mawson, is testament to the potential success of this local communities and are often better placed than programme. We on these Benches support any proposal public agencies to reach people who might otherwise aimed at developing communities and bringing people be marginalised. This engagement is a great deal more closer together. The co-location of public services in than mere consultation; it is sometimes correctly referred underused church buildings is a great idea if properly to as co-production. thought out and supported. I hope the Government I began by referring to the important principle of will support it. respect for the integrity of faith communities. I now want to stress another principle at the heart of faith 7.18 pm communities—the principle of service to others, to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, which the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, referred. This Department for Communities and Local Government & can be about working for a better quality of life in a Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of local community or it can be about global issues of Luton): My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord justice or the environment. It is on the basis of this Mawson, for introducing this debate on public services principle that the public sector can build a working and church buildings. As others have done, I acknowledge partnership with faith communities. the work he has done at the Bromley by Bow Centre There is a straightforward conclusion to be drawn and the innovative projects in which he has been from all that I have said so far. We cannot afford to involved, some of which he outlined this evening. I overlook the important community assets represented also recognise the expertise that has been available to by churches and other faith buildings, and we certainly us in this short debate. I understand that the right cannot afford to allow them to be underused. I think reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester goes back that the right reverend prelate referred to the fact that 25 years with Canvey Island. they are custodians of a significant infrastructure. The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, outlined some A key element of my department’s current partnership difficulties particularly with larger regeneration projects, with faith communities is the shared desire to build with a slightly ambitious proposition that we should strong and positive interfaith relations. We are currently somehow redefine the role of politicians in all this. I taking forward the major programme of work and accept that politicians should have a more practical investment announced in Face to Face and Side by engagement at local community level. The noble Lord Side, published in July 2008. It aims to release the said we should look closely at opportunities that might greatest public benefit from the resources of faith be going amiss. Perhaps we can find time outside this communities through partnership working, especially debate for a discussion of this, as I am interested in through partnerships between faith communities and feeding that back to colleagues. the public sector. Face to Face and Side by Side recognises I begin by referring to an earlier debate on a similar that buildings are among the most significant resources theme. In October 2008, the right reverend Prelate the of faith communities. I quote from Section 2 of the Bishop of Chelmsford introduced a debate entitled framework on shared spaces for interaction and social Welfare: Churches and Faith Communities by asking action: Her Majesty’s Government, “With 54,000 places of worship in the United Kingdom, faith “what future role they envisage for churches and faith communities communities are essential providers of sacred and secular spaces in voluntary sector and welfare delivery partnerships”. for people to interact and pursue shared activities. These spaces In his opening remarks he stated an important principle: are found in all parts of all our communities from large cities to small rural villages. They are used by local people for local events “this is not simply a pragmatic issue about how, in times of scarce and activities”. resources, we cajole agencies such as the churches into filling the increasing number of gaps in the welfare state. Churches and We have heard of a huge array of things that go on in voluntary agencies are not a backstop for the public sector”.—[Official faith buildings in our short debate this evening. They, Report, 9/10/08; col. 363.] “often function as the primary resources and buildings for community Let me put this another way. At the heart of every spaces and essential meeting places”. tradition of belief is an integrity that cannot be simply Much of what I want to say today simply expands co-opted to serve the ends of the powers that be at any on this quotation, drawing out in more detail its one time or place. If government, national or local, is implications and setting out what is being done to to work in partnership with faith communities, respect tackle the challenges that lie behind it. There certainly for this integrity is a fundamental principle, but it are challenges to be faced if the full potential of the would be unfortunate, to say the least, if this principle resource is to be realised. A key challenge is the were misinterpreted to mean that there can be no relationship between faith communities and the wider common ground between the public sector and faiths. third sector. The third sector itself can often face Of course there can. barriers when working in partnership because of All communities need resources if they are to be inadequate understanding of its scope and diversity. thriving, cohesive and sustainable. They need reliable The work of faith communities is no different, ranging public services, particularly during such times that we for example from a neighbourhood-level lunch club GC 243 Public Services: Co-location[LORDS] Public Services: Co-location GC 244

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] Money cannot do everything; we also need to equip once a week to nationwide support for people with people by helping to change cultures and changing the problems such as homelessness and drug addiction. way people think. Churches and faith communities Without their stock of buildings across the country in have to learn how to work effectively with the public every community, as well as dedicated volunteers, sector, and vice versa. This culture change cannot faith communities would not be in a position to deliver simply be decreed, either by the public sector or by this impressive range of services. faith communities. Like any relationship, it has to be The Government have continued to invest in the worked at. We have consistently promoted that key capacity of the third sector over recent years, especially message, not least in supporting the publication by the through the programmes of the Office of the Third Church Urban Fund of Believing in Local Action Sector, which are worth more than £515 million over alongside our Face to Face and Side by Side. Believing the 2007 CSR years. It is vital that this investment in Local Action uses practical case studies to demonstrate reaches faith communities, who are, simply and the benefits of partnership between local third-sector straightforwardly, eligible for it; I must emphasise that organisations and local faith groups. It shows consistently to eliminate any doubt. This principle has underpinned that local faith communities are better equipped to an important recent paper on faith buildings. Churches work in public partnerships, and therefore have better and Faith Buildings: Realising the Potential, which has access to appropriate resources when they align themselves been referred to already, was published jointly last with wider third-sector networks. March by the Church of England and five government As I have said, this is a two-way process. I want to departments. It confirmed the position of faith groups affirm the efforts that faith communities are making as significant contributors to society, and outlined the to equip themselves, such as the Church of England’s different sources of funding and other resources which Crossing the Threshold programme, which is aimed at faith communities could draw on to ensure that the helping dioceses and parishes to get the best from their potential of faith buildings is realised. buildings for wider community use. It began with a One important source of funding that faith conference in the Hereford diocese last November, communities could apply to to support similar where one of my officials was the main speaker and a approaches to the use of their buildings is the DCLG’s toolkit was launched, aimed at supporting parishes in Communitybuilders programme. That provides support beginning the process of developing their churches as for community anchors: organisations that operate a resource for the whole community. I hope that the locally, at the heart of their communities, and are able noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, will see that as one route to respond holistically to local problems and challenges. into helping parishes to understand and engage in the Through the Communitybuilders programme we are process. investing £70 million to help anchor organisations My officials are also currently planning a conference work towards long-term financial stability, so that to take place next month, whose working title is “Faith they can meet the needs of their communities for and Social Action: Innovation and Expertise”. The generations to come. Clearly, many faith buildings conference will highlight examples of good practice may be seen as community anchors. and use workshops to explore some case studies in However, central and local government funding for greater depth. I am pleased to say that two of the case community-focused organisations will be increasingly studies deal explicitly with public service delivery by strained in the current economic climate. For this churches: the Springfield Centre in Birmingham and reason, my department wishes to make it easier for all St Peter’s, Peterchurch, in the diocese of Hereford. community groups to develop the resources and finance Incidentally, St Peter’s is a listed building and English they need to make better use of their buildings for the Heritage is very much involved in encouraging and good of their local communities. The DCLG recently helping in these situations. launched its community enterprise strategic framework, outlining the department’s direction of travel in supporting The intention is to produce a conference report that community-focused organisations. Community enterprises will be a resource both for faith communities and for represent a distinct and important part of the third the public sector, supporting them to co-operate effectively sector. They operate not just as a not-for-profit deliverer in delivering the services that local communities need of local services, investing any surplus back into their and deserve. One of the main speakers will tackle communities, but as focal points for local people to directly the collocation of services, such as village identify the unmet needs of their communities and to shops and post offices, in churches, especially in rural respond with help from their own income-generating areas, and will show how his own organisation, the activities. Plunkett Foundation, is offering resources to churches wishing to go down this social enterprise road. Many faith buildings already host community enterprises—cafés, room hire and nurseries, for example— I shall try to deal with one or two of the points all of which have enhanced the community and provided raised, but I hope that noble Lords will forgive me if I important income for the building. We want to see do not deal with them all. The noble Lord, Lord that approach extended. Just this month, it was reported Roberts, talked about buildings, areas and congregations that a church in Carmarthenshire is looking to run its differing. We very much recognise that, which is why own tenpin bowling alley, would you believe. Not only local engagement is important. I agree with the noble will it be used to create important local jobs, but the Lord, Lord Tope, that having faith communities as an profit that it makes will allow the church to undertake effective part of the local strategic plan is entirely important community projects, such as developing a appropriate and should be encouraged. One can food bank and debt counselling. understand the dilemmas when places of worship GC 245 Public Services: Co-location[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Public Services: Co-location GC 246 could be closed. As the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, Improvement and Development Agency are actively said, people have memories and do not want churches engaged in this. There was the interesting example to close. The right reverend Prelate talked about all the from the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, of the church that uses that are being made of living churches; we do not is used just once a month. His concern about the rural have to empty a church for this to happen. community was not so much that the building was The right reverend Prelate talked about the vision isolated in a field but that the church was isolated from of the Church of England to be at the heart of the his community. He was talking on the same theme of community—the whole of the community. That is the benefits of collocating services. supremely important. He referred to the 16,200 churches, I hope I have demonstrated that the Government but I am afraid that I do not have any data for the are actively supporting the collocation of public noble Earl on how many of those are engaged in some services in churches and other faith buildings, both in form of community use. The idea of public library principle and in practice. The Government have no services being collocated seems an interesting example. magic wand that will transform things overnight. Then there is the issue of urban areas that are running Indeed, I have argued that a top-down approach would out of spaces for new school places. There are some be counterproductive. We are not complacent; we interesting concepts there. It is part of the theme of acknowledge that more can be done. We will continue having an innovative approach, which will certainly be to work with faith communities in the spirit of partnership, the watchword for the local government. which as well as being about mutual support is equally The LGA completed a survey of local authorities’ about mutual challenge. In doing so, we must keep engagement with faith groups in 2008 to inform, update before us the aim of partnership, which is not about and resource local authorities to work with faith and scoring points off one another but about improving interfaith groups in their area. It is hoped that the next outcomes for local communities. step towards producing this updated resource will be taken in the near future. Both the LGA and the Committee adjourned at 7.33 pm.

WS 63 Written Statements[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Statements WS 64

The Financial Services Bill currently before Parliament Written Statements provides for the establishment of the council in statute, including the requirement to publish minutes of its Monday 22 February 2010 quarterly meetings. The Government have moved to the new arrangements ahead of the passage of the Bill. Bail Accommodation and Support Service Statement Crown Prosecutors’ Code The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Statement of Justice (Lord Bach): My honourable friend the Minister of State (Maria Eagle) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. The Attorney-General (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): I am today announcing that the Government have The review of the Code for Crown Prosecutors, which awarded a new national contract for the Bail began during 2008, is now complete. Copies of the Accommodation and Support Service to Stonham. revised code have been placed in the Libraries of both This follows a competitive tender conducted in Houses. accordance with the public sector procurement directive The code was last revised by the Director of Public (2004/8/EC). Stonham offered the best overall bid in Prosecutions (DPP) in 2004 and it has now been terms of quality of service and cost relative to the updated in order to take into account recent changes other bids received and will take over the service from in law and practice, as well as the merger between the ClearSprings on 18 June 2010 for an initial three years. Crown Prosecution Service and the Revenue and Customs Stonham is a third sector organisation and registered Prosecutions Office. charity and one of the UK’s largest providers of The fundamental evidential and public interest housing and support for vulnerable and socially excluded considerations have not changed. However, the code people. has been amended to include: some additional public The primary aim of the Bail Accommodation interest factors tending both in favour of and against and Support Service is to provide accommodation and prosecution; provision for exceptional situations that support services to enable the courts and prison governors allow a decision to be made not to undertake a prosecution to make greater use of conditional bail and early on public interest grounds before all the evidence in release on home detention curfew, in appropriate cases. the case is available for consideration by the prosecutor; The scheme allows defendants without an appropriate an explanation of how the CPS takes decisions in address, who would otherwise have been granted cases that require the DPP’s consent; greater clarity on bail by the courts, to be bailed. It helps to ensure the prosecutor’s role in considering out-of-court disposals; that prison is reserved for people who really need to and the introduction of an explanation of the threshold be there, and not people whom the courts judge to be test and the circumstances in which it should be applied. suitable for bail or who prison governors judge may The revised code also makes it clear that, for the be placed on home detention curfew. maintenance of public confidence in the criminal justice system, in rare cases where a new look at the original Council for Financial Stability decision shows that it was wrong the CPS will consider Statement reversing a decision not to prosecute. The current wording of this aspect of the code updates and brings The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury greater clarity to the undertaking given in a Written (Lord Myners): My right honourable friend the Chancellor Answer on this issue by the Attorney-General on of the Exchequer (Alistair Darling) has made the 31 March 1993. I am particularly pleased to welcome following Written Ministerial Statement. the DPP’s decision to take a more robust approach to I have today deposited in the Libraries of the correcting prosecution decisions that were wrongly House copies of the minutes of the first meeting of taken. the Council for Financial Stability, which was held on To ensure the code’s accessibility, it will be published 14 January 2010. in audio and Braille and, in addition to English and The council comprises the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Welsh, the most commonly spoken community languages. who chairs the council, the Governor of the Bank of I welcome the revised code and commend it to all England and the chairman of the Financial Services prosecuting authorities. Copies of the Code for Crown Authority. The council is responsible for considering Prosecutors will be available on the Crown Prosecution emerging risks to the financial stability of the UK and Service website, which can be found at www.cps.gov.uk. global financial system and for co-ordinating an appropriate response by the UK’s authorities. At the first meeting of the council, the Governor of EU: European Council the Bank of England, the chairman of the Financial Services Authority and I discussed the following issues: Statement the Bank of England financial stability report published on 18 December 2009; The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness financial sector remuneration; and Royall of Blaisdon): My right honourable friend the recovery and resolution plans. Prime Minister has made the following Statement. WS 65 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 66

I attended an informal meeting of the European approach of promoting and supporting the development Council in Brussels on 11 February. of sustainable urban mobility policies, while maintaining Leaders discussed the financial situation in Greece. that the principle of subsidiarity is vital in the field of They fully supported Greece’s commitment to ensure urban transport. The presidency emphasised the need that the ambitious targets set in the stability programme to implement sustainable plans to promote greater for 2010 and the following years are met. The euro integration of infrastructure planning and to find area member states committed to take determined and alternatives to the use of private vehicles through the co-ordinated action to safeguard financial stability in use of public and non-motorised means of transport. the euro area as a whole. The UK agreed that there is a role for the Commission to play in overcoming the lack of evidence surrounding The leaders also discussed the Europe 2020 strategy, urban mobility and facilitating the exchange of best the successor to the Lisbon strategy for jobs and practice. An observatory, as suggested in the action growth. There was support for the ideas contained in plan, could achieve this goal, but it is vital that it has the UK’s compact for jobs and growth and agreement clear terms of reference, objectives and a work programme on the need to co-ordinate activity to achieve a higher agreed by member states. The UK position remains level of growth. I look forward to the publication of clear that the action plan should not lead to further the Commission’s detailed proposals on 3 March. legislation and that cities and city regions should The leaders also discussed climate change, Iran and retain the freedom to pursue and implement locally Haiti. relevant solutions.

EU: Transport Council Immigration Statement Statement

The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home My right honourable friend the Minister of State for Office (Lord West of Spithead): My honourable friend Transport (Sadiq Khan) has made the following the Minister of State for Borders and Immigration Ministerial Statement. (Phil Woolas) has today made the following Written An informal meeting of EU Transport Ministers Ministerial Statement. took place on 12 February 2010 in La Coruña, Spain. I am today publishing a new strategy entitled Protecting I represented the United Kingdom. The two topics for our Border, Protecting the Public. Copies will be available discussion were aviation security and the Commission’s in the Vote Office and in the Libraries of both Houses. action plan on urban mobility. Since its creation in 2008, the UK Border Agency The priority on aviation security was to discuss the has become one of the UK’s largest law enforcement additional security measures introduced in member bodies, operating across the UK and in 135 countries states post Detroit and the future evolution of aviation overseas. It stands at the forefront of efforts to protect security within the EU. The UK, along with most the United Kingdom from overseas threats posed by member states, highlighted the need for a review and dangerous people, goods and materials, while at the reinforcement of EC current baseline measures and same time enforcing our Immigration Rules and facilitating the application of new technologies, including but not the flow of legitimate travel and trade on which our limited to advanced imaging technology (AIT), subject economy depends. to appropriate safeguards. It was noted that the European Commission would shortly be producing a report on This document both clarifies the extent of our law the use of new technologies (including AITs), as a first enforcement activities and sets out our vision as to step to a future legislative proposal to allow their use how, over the next five years, we will develop our as a primary screening technology within the EU, a capability to protect the public from the harm caused move supported by the UK. The presidency emphasised by illegal immigration and smuggling. It also sets out that the threat posed a global challenge that required a how the agency will support the work of its criminal single response and that technology must play a justice partners in tackling non-immigration crime fundamental role in EU strategy to protect the public. committed by foreign nationals in the UK. The presidency expressed satisfaction at the consensus In support of the wider government priority of reached, which would be developed in a joint strategy tackling organised crime, the document identifies tackling within the framework of the European Union. The organised immigration and smuggling crime as a key UK will be participating in further EU, ECAC and priority for the agency, with particular focus on the ICAO meetings over the next few weeks and months detection of class A drugs at the border and the to continue to work internationally to build on existing targeting of groups that facilitate illegal entry or stay aviation security standards and using and developing in the UK. The underlying themes of the strategy new technology, in order to make things harder for the include encouraging compliance with our Immigration terrorist but to continue to facilitate and protect genuine Rules, the benefits of disrupting criminal activity before passenger journeys. it reaches our shores and greater targeting of the On the action plan on urban mobility, the priority assets of criminal groups. was to prepare draft conclusions which will be considered Tackling border and immigration crime and protecting at the Transport Council in June. The UK joined the public are a responsibility that the UK Border several other member states in supporting the principles Agency shares with law enforcement partners, such as of the action plan, in particular the Commission’s the police and the Serious Organised Crime Agency. WS 67 Written Statements[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Statements WS 68

The UK Border Agency has much to contribute—for of murdering a Hamas official in Dubai recently. The example, through the e-Borders programme—but success investigation is at an early stage but a number of will be multi-agency. We already have strong partnership avenues of inquiry are expected to be followed. Since arrangements; our regional immigration crime teams, this is a criminal investigation, it would not be appropriate for example, comprise both border agency and seconded to comment on it at this stage. police officers. We also have local immigration teams Based on the limited information available, the across the country that work alongside the police, HM Identity and Passport Service is satisfied that the passport Revenue and Customs, local authorities and other records identified are genuine UK passports, issued in local partners to ensure compliance with, and enforce, the UK between September 2001 and January 2006, our immigration laws. and that the photographs and signatures provided by This strategy explains our relationship with the the Dubai authorities do not match those on IPS wider law enforcement community and sets out how records. These pre-date the time when biometric UK we will work more closely together to deter, disrupt, passports started to be issued. detect and deal with crime, in order to make the UK a hostile environment for criminals and a safer place for the public. Taxation: Information Exchange Agreements Passports Statement Statement The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): My right honourable friend the Financial The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Stephen Timms) has Office (Lord West of Spithead): My right honourable made the following Written Ministerial Statement. friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department A tax information exchange agreement (TIEA) was (Alan Johnson) has today made the following Written signed with San Marino on 16 February 2010. Ministerial Statement. The text of the TIEA has been deposited in the Following a formal request from the Emirati law Libraries of both Houses and made available on HM enforcement authorities, the Serious Organised Crime Revenue and Customs’ website. The text will be scheduled Agency is conducting an investigation into the apparent to a draft Order in Council and laid before the House use of counterfeit British passports by those suspected of Commons in due course.

WA 169 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 170 Written Answers Africa: Armed Conflict Question Monday 22 February 2010 Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Afghanistan they have made of the estimate in the report by the International Action Network on Small Arms, Oxfam Questions and Saferworld, Africa’s Missing Billions, that the cost of armed conflict in Africa since 1990 was Asked by Lord Astor of Hever equivalent to the money given in aid during the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they same time. [HL1944] plan to review the quota system for gallantry medals in light of the intensity of fighting in Afghanistan. Lord Brett: I agree that the extraordinary cost of [HL1790] armed conflict in Africa severely hampers development. This is why HMG have steadily increased, over the past decade, the amount of their budget allocated to The Minister for International Defence and Security resolving and preventing conflict in Africa. The (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The integrity of the Department for International Development’s (DfID’s) operational honours system is paramount and British 2009 White Paper, Eliminating World Poverty: Building gallantry medals are highly respected. While honours our Common Future, set building peaceful states and are considered on a case-by-case basis and awarded societies as one of its key objectives. The White Paper according to individual merit, commanders are guided pledges to allocate at least 50 per cent of its new by a flexible quota system based on the number of bilateral funding to fragile countries and those affected people deployed on each mission and the intensity by conflict and triple its direct project funding for of combat. Gallantry awards recognise the bravest of security and justice. the brave and are only given in extraordinary Conflicts in Africa can only be managed and resolved circumstances, therefore, their numbers will be limited. in a sustainable manner by people and institutions on These decisions are outside of ministerial remit, but I the continent, so HMG continue their support for understand there are no plans to change the current African conflict prevention and resolution capability. system. HMG also seek an international treaty to regulate Asked by Lord Greaves the arms trade, one of the key elements in reducing the flow of small arms in Africa. The UK has played a To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they lead role internationally in arguing for an arms trade will issue appropriate units of the United Kingdom treaty (ATT). We are committed to working for a forces in Afghanistan with tactical beacons (TACBEs) strong and transparent ATT over the next two years. in order to improve their ability to communicate. We very much welcome the UN’s approval of the ATT [HL1958] resolution which, for the first time, sets a clear timetable for negotiation of a treaty. Baroness Taylor of Bolton: Tactical beacons (TACBEs) Alcohol are no longer in service for use by UK Armed Forces. However, deployed personnel in Afghanistan whose Questions duties put them at risk of isolation are equipped with Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham effective means of communication. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their forecast of the cost to HM Treasury of freezing beer duty in the forthcoming Budget. [HL1980] Afghanistan: Mining To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their forecast of the cost to HM Treasury of discontinuing Question the beer duty escalator. [HL1981] Asked by Lord Astor of Hever The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps (Lord Myners): Table 6 of the tax ready reckoner gives they are taking to ensure that United Kingdom the impact upon Exchequer revenues of a 1 per cent companies know of opportunities for Afghan mining increase in beer and cider duties in 2010-11 as £30 million. contracts. [HL2000] This figure can be adapted to give an approximate indication of the cost of different duty policy options.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Armed Forces: Homecoming Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord Question Young of Norwood Green): On 27 January UKTI organised a trade and investment event in the margins Asked by Lord Astor of Hever of the London Conference on Afghanistan to raise To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the police awareness of commercial opportunities in a range of are protecting armed forces homecoming parades sectors in Afghanistan, including mining. from unlawful protesters. [HL1789] WA 171 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 172

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home These publications are available from the Library Office (Lord West of Spithead): The role of the police of the House and from the Home Office Research, is to facilitate peaceful protest, to keep the peace, to Development and Statistics Directorate web site at: uphold the law and to prevent the commission of http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum offences. Police tactics and decisions on how to achieve -stats. html. this difficult balance are a matter for the independent There were approximately 215,000 cases remaining judgement of chief officers of police. in the legacy backlog, as of December 2009. While the Government and police are committed to facilitating peaceful protest, we are clear that people have the right to go about their lawful business without Asylum Seekers: Deportation fear of harm or intimidation. It is unacceptable for Questions protest to cross over into violence or intimidation and the police will use the range of powers they have to Asked by Baroness Warsi deal with any activity that crosses this line. To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Lord West of Spithead on Armed Forces: Suppliers 15 December 2009 (WA 192), how many of the Question 9,275 failed asylum seekers have now been removed. Asked by Baroness Byford [HL1723] To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Written Answer by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary Office (Lord West of Spithead): Of the 9,275 unsuccessful of State for Defence, Quentin Davies, on 3 November removals of failed asylum seekers for the period 2009 (HC Deb, col. 832W), on what basis decisions 1 April 2008 to 30 November 2009, 4,303 have since to source meat supplies from countries other than been successfully removed from the UK (2,754 in the United Kingdom are taken where United Kingdom financial year 2008-09, and 1,549 in financial year personnel are not resident in the countries concerned. 2009-10 to 5 February). [HL1918] These figures do not constitute part of National The Minister for International Defence and Security Statistics as they are based on internal management (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): As a public procurement information. The information has not been quality organisation, the department is bound by the EC assured under National Statistics protocols and should Public Procurement Regulations which are implemented be treated as provisional and subject to change. in UK law by means of the Public Contract Regulations Asked by Baroness Warsi 2006. Under the regulations it is unlawful to act in an anti-competitive manner by specifying in which country To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the goods should be sourced. All procurement subject to Written Answer by Lord West of Spithead on the exception provided for in Article 346 of the treaty, 3 December 2009 (WA 63), how much money was must be undertaken in accordance with the treaty spent on removing failed asylum seekers in each of principles of non-discrimination; equal treatment; the last three years. [HL1728] transparency; mutual recognition and proportionality and contract award decisions are based on obtaining Lord West of Spithead: It is not possible to provide best value for money for the taxpayer through open a definitive figure on how much money is spent on and fair competition in line with MoD acquisition removing failed asylum seekers. As I previously explained policy. in my answer of 3 December 2009 (WA 63), due to the many different factors which may or may not be Asylum Seekers involved in the cost of a removal, we are unable to disaggregate the specific costs and any attempt to do Question so would incur disproportionate cost. Asked by Baroness Warsi To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Banking Act 2009 asylum cases they are dealing with; and how many of them are legacy cases. [HL1857] Question Asked by Lord Laird The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord West of Spithead): In 2008 asylum intake To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much was 25,935. has been paid out of the Consolidated Fund under Published figures show that at the end of September section 228 of the Banking Act 2009; to what 2009 there were 9,300 asylum applications (excluding bodies payments were made; and how much of that dependants) awaiting an initial decision. money was paid retrospectively. [HL1973] Information on asylum applications is published annually in the Control of Immigration: Statistics The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury United Kingdom bulletin and on a quarterly basis (Lord Myners): A report under Section 231 of the in the Control of Immigration Quarterly Statistical Banking Act 2009 for the period ending 30 September Summary. 2009 will be laid before Parliament by the end of WA 173 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 174

February. This will disclose how much has been paid In total, around £4.5 billion has been paid. It is out of the Consolidated Fund under Section 228, but, estimated that this includes £2.35 billion that the UK in accordance with Section 231, will not specify individual Government paid out to depositors on behalf of the arrangements, or identify, or enable the identification DIGF, £1.4 billion paid out by the FSCS for deposits of, individual beneficiaries. above ¤20,887 and below £50,000, and £800 million paid out by the UK Government in respect of deposits above £50,000. Banking: Iceland On payout to a depositor, the claim of that depositor Questions against Landsbanki is transferred to the FSCS. However, HMT has a contractual right to recover from the Asked by Lord Laird FSCS recoveries referable to the HMT portion (that is, To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the payments to deposits above £50,000). The rights that Written Answer by Lord Myners on 27 January relate to the depositors’ claims of no more than £16,872 (WA 329–30), how much Landsbanki paid to the will be transferred to the DIGF. However, any such Financial Services Authority to exercise the top-up transfer will only take effect upon the coming into offered by the United Kingdom Financial Services force of the “Icesave Refinancing Loan Agreement”, Compensation Scheme to protect depositors’ Information provided by the Resolution Committee investments between the ¤20,887 guaranteed by for Landsbanki indicates that the FSCS and HM Iceland’s Depositors’ and Investors’ Guarantee Fund Treasury will make significant recoveries of the and £50,000; and what proportion of the £1.8 billion compensation paid to depositors through the winding repaid to depositors within those limits is expected up of Landsbanki. to be recovered from the bank’s assets. [HL1900] In relation to the compensation paid out on behalf of the DIGF, on 5 June 2009, the UK Government The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury reached agreement with the Icelandic authorities on a (Lord Myners): This is a matter for the Financial process to ensure the UK is refunded. The terms of Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS). We understand the loan arrangements are set out in my letter to the the amount cannot be disclosed as this is confidential House of 13 January (WA154). They include a state information. guarantee which, under Icelandic law, must be authorised by the Icelandic Parliament in order to take effect. Firms in each class or sub-class contribute to the related compensation costs, in line with their FSA A Bill was passed in August to this effect but with a tariff data as was the case for Landsbanki. The FSCS number of conditions introduced by the Icelandic is a creditor in the administration of Landsbanki Parliament. Following further negotiations, the loan Islands HF in Iceland. The position on possible recoveries agreement was amended to take account of these in relation to the firm is not clear. We cannot provide a conditions. On 30 December, the Parliament in Iceland figure for the likely recoveries as a result. endorsed the loan arrangement and agreed a state guarantee. However, on 5 January 2010 the Icelandic Asked by Lord Laird President announced that he would not sign the Bill that the Parliament had approved, and instead proposed To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the a referendum. A referendum has been scheduled for Written Answer by Lord Myners on 27 January 6 March 2010. (WA 329–30), whether their objective of minimising costs to the taxpayer in relation to the United The UK Government have received assurances from Kingdom branch of Landsbanki was met by HM the Icelandic Government that they remain committed Treasury’s repayment to depositors of £4.5 billion. to meeting their obligations and intend to repay the [HL1901] loan in full. Asked by Lord Laird Lord Myners: On 8 October 2008 the FSA announced that the UK branch of Landsbanki was in default for To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the the purposes of the FSCS. The Chancellor announced Written Answer by Lord Myners on 27 January that all retail depositors with the UK branch of (WA 329–30), what were the common law powers Landsbanki would receive their money in full. In used to guarantee and repay all the deposits by taking this action the Government had several objectives United Kingdom retail investors in the Icelandic including maintaining financial stability and the interests banks. [HL2055] of taxpayer protection. In November 2008 the FSCS began the payout of Lord Myners: The common law powers used by compensation to UK depositors, which consisted Treasury Ministers to make payments in connection of three elements: with the retail deposit books of Heritable Bank, (i) under the EC Deposit Guarantee Scheme Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander and the UK branch Directive, deposits up to £16,872, which should be of Landsbanki are referred to as the “Ram doctrine”. paid by the Icelandic Dpeositors and Investors These payments comprised loans to the Financial Guarantee Fund (DIGF); Services Compensation Scheme to cover that proportion (ii) FSCS eligible deposits above £16,872 and of the retail deposits protected by the scheme and cash below £50,000 paid by the FSCS; and payments to cover the proportion of the retail deposits (iii) balances above £50,000 paid by HMT. which were not protected by the scheme. WA 175 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 176

This doctrine was set out in a memorandum by the request to have the data destroyed and notification then First Parliamentary Counsel, Sir Glanville Ram to the applicant or his representative that the data in 1945. This explains that as a matter of law a have been destroyed. [HL1914] Minister of the Crown may exercise any powers that the Crown has power to exercise, except to the extent The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home to which the Minister is precluded by statute either Office (Lord West of Spithead): The powers of expressly or by necessary implication. examination contained in Schedule 7 to the Terrorism These powers include the power to enter into contracts Act 2000 are an important tool in countering terrorism. or to make payments to others. Terrorists often need to travel across borders to plan, The statutory authority for the Treasury to incur prepare and initiate their acts and these powers are expenditure in the course of exercising these powers essential in helping to identify those individuals. The was provided by section 228 of the Banking Act 2009. powers within Schedule 7 allow officers to take biometric material in order to determine if someone is, or has been, involved in the commission, preparation or Benefits: Non-British Citizens instigation of an act of terrorism. Question Nationally, from the introduction of the Terrorism Asked by Baroness Warsi Act up to 31 December 2009, fingerprints and DNA samples have been taken under Schedule 7 on To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether approximately 1,200 occasions. I am advised that there European Union nationals are eligible to claim have been three individuals who are known to have child-related benefits when their children are not applied for the samples to be destroyed under the resident in the United Kingdom; and, if so, how exceptional case procedure. However, as applications much was paid out in each of the last five years. are made to individual forces, it is possible that some [HL1780] cases have not been reported centrally. Of these three individuals, two sets of samples have been destroyed The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury and the third case is still under consideration. These (Lord Myners): Child benefit and child tax credit is cases have taken between six and 12 months to complete. intended to help families in the UK. Generally, therefore, it is not payable in respect of children resident outside In response to the European Court of Human the UK. However, under EC co-ordinating regulations Rights judgment in the case of S and Marper v United on social security for migrant workers and their families, Kingdom [2008] ECHR 1581, and following pubic which the UK has administered since it joined the consultation in May 2009, the Government laid the European Economic Community in 1973, a European Crime and Security Bill before Parliament. It contains economic area (EEA) national working in one member provisions that would establish a clear statutory framework state can claim family benefits (child tax credit together for the retention, destruction and use of biometric with child benefit) in that member state in respect of material, including DNA samples, DNA profiles and members of their family resident in other member fingerprints. They strike a proper balance between states. protecting the pubic from the threat posed by terrorism All claims for family benefits are subject to a wide and other threats to national security and upholding range of checks throughout the life of each claim. individuals’ rights and liberties. Where claims for family benefits are made under the Furthermore, the powers contained in Schedule 7 EC regulations on behalf of children living in another are kept under scrutiny by the noble Lord Carlile of member state, HM Revenue and Customs carries out Berriew, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. further checks to verify the information provided by He has regularly reviewed and made recommendations the customer to prevent erroneous or fraudulent claims. as to the use of these powers but has consistently The value of the benefit paid is only available at found the powers to be necessary and proportionate. disproportionate costs because under the EC social security co-ordinating regulations (EC Regulations 1408/71 and 574/72) not all awards of child benefit in British Citizenship respect of children living in other member states are Questions made at the full UK rate. Asked by Lord Avebury Biometric Data To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether it is possible to be a British National (Overseas) and Question British Overseas citizen concurrently; and whether Asked by Lord Avebury an otherwise stateless person holding both statuses To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many can be registered as a British citizen under section persons have had their biometric data taken by 4B of the British Nationality Act 1981 or the British Counter Terrorism Command under Schedule 7 to Nationality (Hong Kong) Act 1997. [HL1640] the Terrorism Act 2000; how many of those have applied to the chief police officer of the force which The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home took the data under the exceptional case procedure Office (Lord West of Spithead): There is no legislative for their samples to be destroyed; how many of bar on a person holding the statuses of British Overseas those applications have been successful; and what citizen and British National (Overseas) concurrently, was the average length of time between the first but the circumstances in which this situation might WA 177 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 178 arise in practice are very limited. A person holding As such it would be appropriate, where a person’s either, or both, of these statuses can be registered as a father was born in India, for UKBA to request British citizen under Section 4B of the British Nationality confirmation that the person concerned has not acquired Act 1981 or under the British Nationality (Hong citizenship of India, either automatically or by registration, Kong) Act 1997, provided the statutory requirements at any time. When completing an application form in are met. relation to a parent or grandparent who was born in India but died before 26 January 1950, that person’s Asked by Lord Avebury nationality status could be entered as “British subject”. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how an applicant UKBA will then assess that person’s status in relation should fill out sections 1.17 to 1.40 of Home Office to their date and place of birth. UKBA will consider form B(OS) if the anglicised spelling, place of birth, whether any amendment is required to form and guide date of birth or nationality of the deceased parent B(OS) in this respect. or grandparent in question is not known to the applicant. [HL1641] Buying Solutions Question Lord West of Spithead: A person wanting to apply Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay for British citizenship under Section 4B of the British Nationality Act 1981 should complete the form B(OS) To ask Her Majesty’s Government what criteria to the best of his or her knowledge. If anglicised firms must meet to be listed in a Buying Solutions spellings of names are not known, the applicant should Management Consultancy and Accounting Services enter the details as known, and UKBA will look into framework agreement; how many firms are part of this. such framework agreements; for how long each However, if he or she is not able to provide sufficient firm part of such a framework agreement has been information about his or her parents or grandparents, listed; how Buying Solutions inform them of the this may prevent him or her from demonstrating that performance of such framework agreements; and the requirement to have no other citizenship or nationality what responsibility Buying Solutions has to ensure is met. If a person has any concerns in this respect such framework agreements provide value for money. they may wish to contact the UK Border Agency for [HL2078] advice on their particular situation. Asked by Lord Avebury The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): Suppliers on the Management To ask Her Majesty’s Government what nationality Consultancy & Accounting Services (MCAS) framework an applicant should state on Home Office form agreement have to meet the criteria detailed in the B(OS) for their parent or grandparent who was table below; born in undivided India but did not acquire Indian citizenship because they died before the citizenship General Requirements provisions of the constitution of India came into Selection and Management of Sub Contractors force; whether they will update the form and guidance Updating and Vetting of Consultants notes to reflect how in that circumstance deceased Customer Requirements parents should be treated; whether such an applicant Assignment Selection Process would be expected to obtain a letter from Indian Individual Assignment Management authorities confirming non-acquisition of Indian Complaint Policies and Procedures citizenship; and, if so, for what purpose. [HL1642] Performance Management - Key Performance Indicators Sustainability and Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) Lot Specific Requirements Lord West of Spithead: If the person concerned was Continuous Improvement born before the Indian Constitution took effect on Added Value 26 January 1950, their eligibility for Indian citizenship Alternative Options would be determined in accordance with Section 5 of Current thinking the Constitution. This specifies that a person who was Buying Solutions Requirements domiciled in India on 26 January and had a parent Website Templates (not evaluated) born in the territory of India would be an Indian Marketing and Promotion citizen. Management Information Savings and Value for Money If the person was born after the Indian Constitution Savings and Efficiency Targets took effect on 26 January 1950 his status would be Value for Money considered in accordance with the Indian Citizenship Act 1955. Section 1(3) of that Act specifies that where Cost Models and Incentivisation a person’s father died before commencement, the status Pricing Information Catalogue rates by consultant grade and percentage discounts—Maximum that the father would have acquired but for his death Rate. will apply. As such, a person born outside India after 26 January 1950 will be a British citizen if his father would have been a citizen of India at the time of the There are 38 suppliers on the MCAS framework birth, but for his death. agreement. WA 179 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 180

The MCAS framework agreement is for three years China with an option to extend for a year. Framework agreements are not generally for more than four years Question in total. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Supplier performance on the MCAS framework To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they agreement is managed and monitored through structured have raised with the government of China the case key performance indicators (KPI’s) and management of Gao Zhisheng, a human rights lawyer who was information (MI) that form part of the terms and imprisoned on 4 February 2009; and whether they conditions of the agreement. Suppliers provide input will request the United Nations Working Group on and get feedback on performance, via six-monthly Enforced or Involuntary Disappearances to ask reviews and supplier meetings. China to reveal his location and any charges lodged Buying solutions provides a framework to enable against him. [HL1876] value for money via the monitoring of maximum rates, encouraging further competition, guidance on use of the framework and the MCAS terms and The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth conditions. Customers decide their own pricing Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): We are concerned mechanisms and general use of the framework agreement. about the case of Gao Zhisheng and the continuing Suppliers provide input and get feedback on performance, uncertainty over his whereabouts. Ivan Lewis released via six-monthly reviews and supplier meetings. a statement on 3 February urging the Chinese Government to provide accurate information on Gao’s situation to ease the concerns of his family and friends and to provide reassurance about his condition. The EU also issued a statement, expressing their concerns over CCTV Gao’s disappearance on 9 February. Questions We have consistently raised the case of Gao Zhisheng with the Chinese Government, most recently when Asked by Lord Chadlington Ivan Lewis raised the matter with a senior Chinese delegation on 6 December 2009. We also worked with To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many our EU partners to ensure that his case was raised as closed-circuit television cameras there are in London. part of a case list at the EU-China Human Rights [HL1810] Dialogue on 20 November 2009. The Chinese responded To ask Her Majesty’s Government what has with details of Gao’s arrest and imprisonment. They been the effect of the installation of closed-circuit stated that Gao himself had accepted the judgment television cameras on the level of recorded crime in and was on probation and that he returned to his major cities in the United Kingdom. [HL1811] home town in Shaanxi Province for the tomb-sweeping festival in June 2009. Gao Zhisheng’s case was also raised at the EU-China Strategic Dialogue in December 2009. We will continue to raise his case at every The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home opportunity. If Gao’s family, friends or representatives Office (Lord West of Spithead): There are no figures want the working group to investigate, they are able to held centrally on the number of CCTV cameras in approach it directly. London. CCTV is most effective when used alongside other measures. CCTV can assist in the detection of crime in Climate Change public places, provide evidential material in identifying offenders and help in bringing them to justice. A Question recent report by the Campbell Crime and Justice Group: Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach (http://db.c2admin.org/doc-pdf/ Welsh_CCTV_review.pdf) which includes UK To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether their membership and whose review was part-funded by the negotiators at climate change conferences utilise Home Office, included the observation that CCTV is the work of the Optimum Population Trust, particularly more effective in reducing crime in the UK than in its statement Population and Climate Change of other countries. August 2009. [HL1881] The National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) and Cheshire Constabulary are conducting a qualitative analysis of recorded crime data and case files in Cheshire The Minister of State, Department of Energy and to determine the value of CCTV to investigations Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): Under carried out in that police force area. This work will be the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate used to assist in further consideration of the criteria Change (UNFCCC), UK negotiators form part of the that should be applied in other areas of England and wider EU negotiation team which use EU Council Wales by police, local authorities and others in assessing Conclusions as the basis for negotiation positions. the contribution of CCTV to crime detection, crime Population issues have not so far formed part of the reduction and public confidence. UNFCCC negotiations. WA 181 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 182

Communities: Faith Forums Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Projects funded in Round 1 Questions Organisation Amount awarded

Asked by Baroness Warsi Benchmark (Marlpool-Langley £2,500.00 Youth Project) To ask Her Majesty’s Government which groups, Bethany Christian Centre £27,370.00 causes or organisations were funded in each round Bethel Network £5,000.00 of the Faith Communities Capacity Building Fund Bexley Multi Faith Forum £5,000.00 programme; how much was given to each; and how Bilston Church of God of £3,500.00 much funding is to be allocated. [HL1910] Prophecy ’Bridge Youth Group’ Birmingham Citizens £32,480.00 Birmingham Council of Faiths £5,000.00 Birmingham Faith Leaders £5,000.00 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Group Department for Communities and Local Government & Birmingham Pragati Mandal £4,990.00 Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Birmingham Street Pastors £4,048.00 Luton): The information requested is in the tables Initiative (part of ascension below. The Faith Communities Capacity Building Fund trust) ran from 2004-05 to 2007-08 and my department has Blackburn Cathedral £28,600.00 no plans to initiate a further application round. Blackburn with Darwen Youth £2,599.18 for Christ Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Blackpool Faith Forum £4,900.00 Projects funded in Round 1 Blessed Sacrament Church £23,797.00 Organisation Amount awarded Blythswood Care (Medway) £4,000.00 ACETS Afro-Caribbean £16,667.00 Board of Deputies of British £8,450.00 Education and Training Services Jews Act4 £1,680.00 Body of Christ Church £5,000.00 Hackney Active Faith Communities £34,165.00 Programme (AFCP) Bolton Hindu Forum £33,880.00 Al Ghazali Multicultural Centre £2,500.00 Bolton Interfaith Council £45,414.00 Alevi Cultural Centre £49,300.00 Bournemouth Islamic Centre £4,500.00 (Islam Awareness Project) Al-Khoei Foundation £35,000.00 Bournemouth Reform £4,280.00 Al-Mahdi Institute £2,950.00 Synagogue Al-Noor Primary School £35,198.00 Bradford and District Women’s £4,350.00 Al-Noor Youth Association £4,900.00 Forum An-Nisa Society £35,000.00 Bradford Diocesan Board of £29,100.00 An-Noor Arabic School £4,110.00 Finance Association Bradford District Faiths Forum £33,770.00 Ansley PCC £5,000.00 Bradford Trident £32,400.00 Art and Christianity Enquiry £5,000.00 Braunstone Faiths Forum - £2,830.51 Trust (ACE) (Community Encounters Art Beyond Belief £22,368.00 Project) Asian Women’s Advisory £36,200.00 Breath of Life Community £5,000.00 Service (AWAS) Services Association of Tamil £20,428.00 Brent Multi-Faith Forum £5,000.00 Parishioners UK Brighton & Hove Muslim £4,620.00 Aston Christian Centre £47,000.00 Forum Atisha Buddhist Centre £4,991.00 Brighton Buddhist Centre £2,336.25 Avalunch Community Café £3,900.00 (FWBO Brighton) Awaz Utaoh Ltd £27,200.00 Brighton Festival of World £5,000.00 B&H Islamic Centre London £4,850.00 Sacred Music Ltd Baitul Aman Jam-E Masjid and £5,000.00 Bristol Inter Faith Group £24,550.00 Madrasha Bristol Muslim Cultural Society £50,000.00 Banbury Area Religious £1,056.15 Limited (BMCS) Education Centre British Organisation of Sikh £4,000.00 Bangladeshi Association/ £5,000.00 Students (BOSS) Central Jamme Mosque Building Bridges £32,000.00 Reading Building Bridges in Burnley £45,000.00 Bangladeshi Community £3,000.00 Burgh-le-marsh Methodist £2,739.00 Association Church Youth Drop-in and Basildon Islamic Centre £1,500.00 Leisure Group Bath Inter Faith Group £2,187.00 Burton upon Trent Inter Faith £5,000.00 Bath Islamic Society Limited £2,500.00 Network (BIFN) Bedford Council of Faiths £3,000.00 Burton Youth for Christ £5,000.00 (BCoF) Camden Faith Communities £47,275.00 Beit Klal Yisrael £4,200.00 Partnership - Regent Square Believers Tabernacle £5,000.00 URC WA 183 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 184

Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Projects funded in Round 1 Projects funded in Round 1 Organisation Amount awarded Organisation Amount awarded

Care Management Group - £5,000.00 Community Action in £5,000.00 Newbold Baptist Church Rossendale Carlisle City Church Rainbow £4,732.00 Community First £3,180.00 Soft Play Community Health Action £31,514.00 CCI (Christian Camping £3,310.00 Trust - Brent and Harrow International) Community House Presbyterian £49,726.00 Cedar House Counselling £2,200.00 Church Centre Community Organisations £42,500.00 Central London Youth £31,000.00 Forum - Tower Hamlets Development Trust Conflict and Change £5,000.00 Centre for Community £30,000.00 Development Initiatives (CCDI) Congolese Voluntary £3,000.00 Organisation Centre for the Study of Jewish- £35,000.00 Christian Relations (CJCR) Connections Pregnancy Crisis £4,956.00 Centre International Des £2,000.00 Centre and GirlAbout Drop-In Compassions ’Les Bontes de Centre l’Eternel’ Consett Churches and £900.00 Centrepoint Christian Church £15,000.00 Neighbourhood Action (CCANA) Chaplaincy of the University of £17,000.00 Glamorgan Council for Church and Society, £5,000.00 Diocese of Exeter Chatsworth Road Methodist £4,200.00 Luncheon Club Council of Sikh Gurdwaras £49,510.00 Birmingham (CSGB) Chepstow Baptist Church £20,000.00 Coventry Multi-Faith Forum £5,000.00 Christ Ambassadors £5,000.00 International Ministries Coventry Muslim Community £48,861.00 Christ Apostolic Church (Mt £5,000.00 Association ltd Bethel) UK Crawley Interfaith Network £3,800.00 Christ Church East Dulwich £3,800.00 Crescent Youth Club £5,000.00 and Herne Hill United Church Custom House Baptist Church £3,000.00 Christ Church North Brixton £4,426.00 CYTUN (Churches Together in £50,000.00 Christian Church of £2,500.00 Wales) Social Justice Network Birmingham Daru-Al-Moameneen £3,435.00 Christian Community Action £800.00 Darul Uloom Leicester £2,500.00 Christian Muslim Forum Ltd £50,000.00 Dash Arts (‘The festival of £49,150.00 Church Council for Industry £5,000.00 Jewish arts and culture’) and Social Responsibility (ISR) Da’watul Islam UK & Eire for £33,500.00 Church of Christ the King, £4,352.00 Darul Ummah - ’House of Beaumont Leys Community’ Church of England Education £25,000.00 Deen/Faith For All £5,000.00 Division Dharmavajra Buddhist Centre - £3,000.00 Church of God of Prophecy £13,705.00 International Kadampa Church of Grace Ministries £4,615.00 Buddhist (White City) Dimension Ecumenical Youth £1,100.00 Church of Prophecy (The Oasis £4,500.00 Church Project) Diocese of Chichester £4,000.00 Churches Acting Together in £4,860.00 Arthur’s Hill Diocese of Leeds (Commission £4,320.00 for Inter-religious Dialogue) Churches Regional Commission £5,000.00 for Yorkshire and the Humber Diocese of Ripon and Leeds £4,750.00 Churches Together in £2,940.00 Diocese of Wakefield / Kirklees £45,000.00 Bedlingtonshire Faiths Forum Churches Together in Britain £48,800.00 Downs Baptist Church £750.00 and Ireland (CTBI) Dudley Borough Interfaith £28,400.00 Churches Together in Dorset £4,200.00 Network Churches Together in Itchen £5,000.00 Dudley Muslim Association £47,000.00 Churches Together in North £5,000.00 East + West Trust £5,000.00 East Lincolnshire East London Buddhist Cultural £3,500.00 Churches Together in Wirral £5,000.00 Centre City Gateway £30,000.00 East London Mosque and £47,000.00 Clapham & Stockwell Faith £5,000.00 London Muslim Centre Forum East of England Faiths Council £39,200.00 Commission for Inter-Religious £5,000.00 Relations Ebrahim Community College £2,500.00 Commitment in Communities £47,158.00 Elmbridge Multifaith Forum £5,000.00 (CiC) Ephrata Church Community £4,992.00 Communities in Action £5,000.00 Essex Islamic Trust £3,750.00 WA 185 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 186

Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Projects funded in Round 1 Projects funded in Round 1 Organisation Amount awarded Organisation Amount awarded

Faith Based Regeneration £50,000.00 Hindu Youth UK £4,975.00 Network UK (FbRN); CCWA; Hindu-Christian Forum of the £4,500.00 CDX; ARU UK Faith In Their Voices £4,983.00 Holy City International £4,995.00 Faiths Together £17,005.00 Ministries ‘Faiths Together in Croydon’ £24,732.00 Holy Spirit Church Denton £810.00 (Anglican Diocese of Southwark) Hoole Baptist Church £5,000.00 Family Space £4,980.00 Hope Baptist Church £4,900.00 Fathers Direct £5,000.00 Hope City Enterprise £19,000.00 FATIMA Women’s Network £40,000.00 Horn of Africa Improvement £4,998.00 Federation of Muslim £9,700.00 Link (HAIL) Organizations (FMO) Hounslow Friends of Faith £5,000.00 Leicestershire Hounslow Muslim Women’s £4,995.00 Folkestone Migrant Support £3,700.00 Association Group (FMSG) Houses Into Homes (working £4,830.00 Fountain of Light Women’s £3,739.00 name: Well Women Workshops) Group Hucknall Engage Ltd £4,900.00 Frampton Park Baptist Church £3,310.00 Hull and East Riding Interfaith £5,000.00 Friends of the Western Buddhist £1,000.00 (HERI) Order - London Buddhist Hull Youth For Christ £4,127.00 Centre Hyderi Islamic Centre £4,600.00 Fulham Seventh-day Adventist £4,637.00 Church Youth Department Imam Al-Hassan Association £4,950.00 Fusion Youth Project £25,000.00 Impact: Preston £5,000.00 FWBO (Friends of the Western £4,299.00 Indian Union, Oxford £2,000.00 Buddhist Order) Leeds Initiative Interfaith Trust £28,800.00 Gargaar Somali Welfare £5,000.00 Inspired Sisters £5,000.00 Association (GSWA) Interfaith MK £2,600.00 Gateway Christian Fellowship £4,845.00 Interfusion: Portsmouth Youth £27,650.00 Gateway Community Church £4,849.00 Diversity Forum Gaudiya Mission UK £5,000.00 International First Born Church £4,998.00 Gillingham Youth For Christ £5,000.00 of the Living God Grace Incorporation Faith Trust £3,712.00 International Swahili £5,000.00 (GIFT) Pentecostal Church Community Gravesend & Dartford Muslim £3,600.00 Project Association ISKCON (International Society £5,000.00 Great Yarmouth Borough Wide £3,500.00 for Krishna Consciousness) Churches Forum (BWCF) Islamic Awareness and £46,200.00 Green Light - Muslim Youth £17,000.00 Education Project (IAEP) Forum (Dudley) Islamic Centre £2,250.00 Greenwich African/African £5,000.00 Islamic Community Centre £47,000.00 Caribbean Women’s Organisation Islamic Cultural Centre £4,994.00 (Wembley ICC) Greenwich Peninsula £3,353.00 Chaplaincy Steering Group Islamic Institute of £5,000.00 Development and Research Guildford Interfaith Forum £4,540.00 (IIDR) Gujarat Hindu Society £28,800.00 Islamic Society of Britain £5,000.00 Gurdwara Amrit Parchar £4,814.00 (Bradford) Dharmik Diwan (UK) Bradford Islamic Society of Britain £2,909.00 Guru Nanak Community £36,700.00 (Luton) Centre Islamic Society of Britain, £3,500.00 Guru Nanak Satsang Sabha £4,000.00 Manchester Regional Branch (Sikh Temple), Maidenhead Island House Community £19,977.00 Gurudwara Shri Guru £3,500.00 Centre Dashmesh Sahib Harlow Muslim Women’s £4,800.00 Islington Faiths Forum - £11,250.00 Support Group Wesley’s Chapel and Leysian Mission Harrow Inter Faith Council £4,500.00 ISR - in partnership with £20,000.00 Heartland Youth for Christ £4,060.00 faithnetsouthwest Heeley Parish Church Way £4,000.00 Forward Group Jain Samaj Europe (Leicester) £3,000.00 Hindu Council UK £50,000.00 Jain Samaj Europe (London £49,377.00 Branch) Hindu Samaj £2,750.00 Hindu Tamil Cultural £5,000.00 Jain Sangha of Europe £5,000.00 Association (Enfield) Jamiat Ahl-E-Hadith Nelson £2,495.00 WA 187 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 188

Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Projects funded in Round 1 Projects funded in Round 1 Organisation Amount awarded Organisation Amount awarded

Jewish Representative Council £5,000.00 Manna House £4,850.00 of Greater Manchester and Manna House Counselling £4,652.00 Region Service Joppa Baptist Interfaith £4,000.00 Masjid-E-Saliheen £3,750.00 Network Medina Islamic Education £4,850.00 Kala Chethena Kathakali £4,950.00 Centre Theatre Company Medway Inter Faith Action £5,000.00 Karimia Institute £11,500.00 (MIFA) KCC Youth £4,966.00 MIDAS £5,000.00 KEY Churches Together £2,500.00 Middlesbrough Council of £50,000.00 (Kingston upon Hull and East Faiths Yorkshire) Midlands International £2,500.00 Khaas £4,333.00 Buddhist Association Khayaal Theatre Company £17,000.00 Milton Keynes Hindu £3,250.00 Kids Out £36,833.00 Association Kidz Klub Bradford £5,000.00 Ministry of Restoration £5,000.00 King’s Church (Newport) £31,922.00 Nottingham Kingston Inter Faith Forum/ £2,495.00 Minorities of Europe (MoE) £39,217.00 Standing Advisory Council for MKSIA Community - Leicester £5,000.00 RE Mlody Las Polish Folklore £3,000.00 Label of Love Ltd £1,557.00 Youth Group Lancaster Diocesan Faith and £4,750.00 Justice Commission Monmouth Diocesan Youth £1,975.00 Committee Lea Road United Reformed £4,931.00 Church Moseley Inter Faith Group £4,277.00 Leagrave Youth Work Action £4,804.00 MSI Jamaat of Essex £4,350.00 Group Muslim Action Forum £2,000.00 Leeds Chinese Christian Church £3,519.00 Muslim Community Centre £1,500.00 Leeds Christian Community £5,000.00 Muslim Council of Wales £45,000.00 Trust Muslim Enterprise £47,000.00 Leeds Faiths Forum - LFF £49,543.00 Development Service (MEDS) Leicester Council of Faiths £30,690.00 Muslim Women Society for the £5,000.00 Leicester Muslim-Christian £4,750.00 Future Dialogue Groups Muslim Womens Helpline £4,950.00 Lessons from the Past (LftP) £48,800.00 Muslim Women’s Network £48,933.00 Lincoln Inter Faith Forum £2,350.00 (MWN) Lincoln Unitarian Chapel £900.00 Muslim Youth Helpline £50,000.00 Lisvane Youth club £3,423.58 Mustard Tree £4,898.74 Liverpool Community Spirit £24,986.00 Myland Parochial Church £2,729.14 (LCS) Council Liverpool Reform Synagogue £49,650.00 National Board of Catholic £25,000.00 Living Waters Church £4,500.00 Women Local Spiritual Assembly of the £2,250.00 National Ecumenical Agency in £29,750.00 Baha’is of Barnet / The Baha’i FE: Faiths in Further Education Faith Neighbours in Poplar £5,000.00 London Churches Group for £21,000.00 Network of Buddhist £25,240.00 Social Action (LCGSA) Organisations UK (NBO) Loughborough Council of £4,600.00 Network of Sikh Organisations £37,000.00 Faiths UK (NSO) LRK Cultural Centre £4,700.00 New Life Evangelical £5,000.00 Lumbini Nepalese Buddha £2,022.06 Community Dharma Society New Springs Church £5,000.00 Luton Council of Faiths £18,500.00 Newham Methodist Church £37,864.00 Luton Gospel Community £4,900.00 Circuit Choir (LGCC) Nipponzan Myonoji - The £5,000.00 Mahanaim Evangelical Mission £4,755.00 London Peace Pagoda Mahila Mandal (Women’s £4,900.00 Nisaa Society (The Women £41,993.00 Group) Society) Manchester Interfaith Forum £1,200.00 Nishkam Civic Association £25,000.00 (MIF) North London Interfaith £2,500.00 Manchester Jewish Community £3,100.00 (Formely Hampstead Interfaith Centre Group) Manchester Selassie Orthodox £5,000.00 Northampton Youth Ministry £3,200.00 Church Office, RC Diocese of MANNA £4,910.00 Northampton WA 189 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 190

Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Projects funded in Round 1 Projects funded in Round 1 Organisation Amount awarded Organisation Amount awarded

Northwood Holocaust £5,000.00 Rotherham Churches Tourism £4,550.00 Memorial Day Event Initiative (RCTI) Nottingham Inter Faith Council £3,000.00 Rumi Foundation £3,500.00 Oakham Evangelical Church £3,697.97 Sacred Space £5,000.00 Oldham Inter Faith Forum £32,000.00 Salem Academy of Music £2,500.00 Open Forum for Economic £43,956.00 Salisbury Cathedral Education £3,965.00 Regeneration (OFFER) Centre Orthodox Jewish Forum of £3,550.00 SALT Community Project £5,000.00 Salford Sandwell Confederation of £1,830.00 Oxford Centre for Islamic £11,000.00 Indians Studies SEARCH (Social & Economic £27,992.00 Oxford Centre for Islamic £4,625.00 Action Resource of Churches in Studies Hull) Oxford iMap - Oxford Islam £5,000.00 Seven Kings United Free £4,939.00 and Muslims Awareness Project Church Oxford Muslim Community £3,000.00 Shared Voices £28,200.00 Association Shir Hayim - Hampstead £2,500.00 Paddock Community Forum £43,030.00 Reform Jewish Community Pakistan Centre £43,787.00 Shree Sanatan Mandir and £2,500.00 Parish of Swaythling £5,000.00 Community Centre Partnership and Participation £5,000.00 Shri Guru Ravidass Temple and £4,000.00 Project (Gloucester Voluntary Community Centre service) Sikh Community and Youth £41,993.00 Patel Samaj of Northampton £5,000.00 Service Patiko Bakers Fort Project £18,700.00 Sikh Community Forum £50,000.00 Peckham DT Football Club £5,000.00 Sikh Nari Manch UK £35,000.00 Pentecostal City Mission £5,000.00 Skelmersdale Methodist Circuit £4,570.00 (Brixton) (West Lancs Inter-Faith Network) Phase Trust £3,850.00 Slough & District Religious £5,000.00 Portobello Methodist Church £5,000.00 Studies Resource Centre Portrack Baptist Church Youth £1,972.00 Social Enterprise Development £45,410.00 Portsmouth Diocesan Council £38,276.00 Initiative (SEDI) for Social Responsibility Social Unity Foundation of £10,000.00 Preston Faith Forum £39,540.00 Innovation (SUFI) Trust Ltd Preston Pakistan Cultural £1,000.00 Society for Dialogue and Action £17,830.00 Society (PPCS) Solihull Hebrew Congregation £4,844.00 Punjab Buddhist Society UK £4,135.00 Somali Education Development £2,500.00 Radicle £4,500.00 Centre (SEDEC) Rapha’s Hand £4,980.00 Somewhere Else - Liverpool £36,939.00 Redbridge Faith Forum (Ilford £47,300.00 Methodist City Centre Methodist Church) Community Redeemed Christian Church of £4,756.98 South Asian Concern £4,450.00 God - Fountain of Grace South London Inter Faith £18,100.00 Redeemed Christian Church of £35,500.00 Group (SLIFG) God, Light House Fellowship Southampton Muslim Woman’s £5,000.00 Religions for Peace (UK) £32,340.00 Group (SMWG) Religious Society of Friends £5,000.00 Southend and District Reform £24,110.00 (Quakers) Peterborough Synagogue Restoration Ministries £4,998.00 Southend Community in £5,000.00 Harmony Partnership (SCHP) Restoration Outreach £2,396.00 Southgate & District Reform £44,188.00 Rhydwilym Baptist Chapel £4,617.50 Synagogue (SDRS) Ribbleton Avenue Methodist £5,000.00 Southwark Diocesian Welcare £16,733.00 Church Faith in Regeneration Project Ripon Cathedral Chapter £39,200.00 Southwark Women Support £48,852.00 River Cultures Festival Ltd. £14,450.00 Organisation (SWAWSO) Riverside Christian Fellowship £3,526.00 Spiritual Assembly of the £1,656.00 Rivertown United Reformed £3,500.00 Bahai’s of Birmingham Church (Shotton) Sri Lanka Social and Cultural £5,000.00 Rochdale Centre of Diversity £23,176.00 Organisation - (SLSCO Flame) (RCD) St Albans City and District £3,450.00 Roman Catholic Parish of £3,000.00 Bereavement Network Mother of God, Leicester St Albans Masorti Synagogue £4,975.00 Roman Catholic Parish of St £3,500.00 St Andrew’s Church, Roman £1,120.00 Thomas More, Sheffield Hill, Lowestoft WA 191 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 192

Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Projects funded in Round 1 Projects funded in Round 1 Organisation Amount awarded Organisation Amount awarded

St Anne’s Roman Catholic £3,500.00 Thames Gateway Women’s £2,720.00 Church Multifaith Forum St Christopher’s Church £5,000.00 The Ammerdown Centre £4,830.00 Outreach Project The Barking Programme £4,400.00 St Chrysostom’s Church £3,525.00 The Bradford Sunni Muslim £3,750.00 St Ethelburga’s Centre for £29,175.00 Khalifa Society Reconciliation and Peace Centre for Specialist £39,800.00 St George Abbey Hey £4,720.00 Educational Assistance (Binoh St James the Apostle, Selby (The £5,000.00 of Manchester) Edge Project) The Children’s Society £48,000.00 St John the Baptist Parish £5,000.00 The Church of the Holy Family £5,000.00 Church - a local ecumenical partnership St Margaret’s Youth Project £5,000.00 Churches’ Regional £50,000.00 St Mark’s Church Haydock £22,095.00 Commission in the North East St Mary’s Church £5,000.00 (FiNER Project) St Mary’s Church and £23,800.00 The Dorothy Parkes Centre Ltd. £4,950.00 Community Centre The Everlasting Hope Church £4,990.00 St Mary’s Church Walsgrave £5,000.00 (L’Eglise de l’Esperance Coventry Eternelle) St Matthews Church, £33,920.00 The French Christian £21,300.00 Wolverhampton Community Bethel St Michael’s Community £18,579.00 The Good Neighbour Centre / £22,500.00 Renewal Project New Hope Mentoring St Osmund’s Church £1,500.00 Programme St Paul and St Silas Church - £4,500.00 The Good Shepherd Mission £4,500.00 Zap Club The Good Shepherd/Le Berger £5,000.00 St Paul’s Community £12,000.00 The Good Shepherd/St £8,100.00 Development Trust Barnabas Eastlands St Peter and St Paul Church £3,000.00 The Grapevine Centre of the £3,035.00 (Aston Parish Church) Heeley Church of the Nazarene St Peters Youth Alliance £4,975.00 The Gujarati Association £35,000.00 St Philip’s Centre for Study and £33,200.00 The Hindu Cultural Association £5,000.00 Engagement in a Multi Faith - Gloucester Society The Holy Family Catholic £500.00 St Philip’s Church £3,000.00 School St Stephen’s Church £2,648.00 The House on the Corner £4,800.00 St Stephen’s Church and St £2,850.00 Community Project Stephen’s Neighbourhood The Indian Association £3,750.00 Centre Cheltenham. (Glos) St. Augustine’s Community £4,950.00 The Interfaith Marriage Project £4,250.00 Support Centre The Interlink Foundation - NW £25,000.00 St. Mark’s Church Dalston £3,500.00 England Branch Stoke on Trent and North £5,000.00 The Islamic Foundation £44,600.00 Staffordshire YMCA Foyer Stranton Church, Hartlepool £5,000.00 The Jewish Youth Project £4,000.00 (Church of England) The Khoja Shia Ithna-asheri £4,590.00 Student Represent £5,000.00 Muslim Community of Milton Keynes Sunderland Samba FC £4,920.00 The King’s Arms (The £4,901.00 Sunderland South Circuit Youth £3,250.00 Courtyard Petersfield ) Worker Project (Methodist Church) The King’s House Trust £30,000.00 Sundon Park Baptist Church £4,538.11 The Lancashire Forum of £9,785.00 Faiths Sutton Asian Women’s Forum £4,705.38 The Latymer Christian £5,000.00 T.E.A.M.S. Global £5,000.00 Fellowship Trust Taleem Youth Forum £4,050.00 The Lighthouse Cradle (TLC) £5,000.00 Talking Matters Association £5,000.00 The Merseyside Council of £49,500.00 Ltd (TMA) Faiths Tamanna £5,000.00 The Message Trust £20,000.00 Tameside 3rd Sector Coalition £32,191.00 Methodist Church, Bristol £3,500.00 (Tameside InterFaith Network) North Circuit (Parkway Taraloka Buddhist Retreat £4,530.00 Methodist Church) Centre for Women Midlands International £2,400.00 Teenbridge Project £2,492.95 Buddhist Association in the UK Telford and Wrekin Interfaith £5,000.00 Derby Branch Group The Mosaic Community Trust £36,500.00 WA 193 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 194

Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Faith Communities Capacity Building fund Projects funded in Round 1 Projects funded in Round 1 Organisation Amount awarded Organisation Amount awarded

The Multi-Faith Group for £5,000.00 Westminster Roman Catholic £29,800.00 Healthcare Chaplaincy Diocese Trustee The Muslim Council of Britain £50,000.00 Wheatley Park Baptist Church £11,860.00 The Muslim Cultural Heritage £24,884.00 Williamstown Salvation Army £775.00 Centre (MCHC) Trust Wings of Hope Community £4,960.00 The Muslim Welfare £22,147.00 Association Association Winner’s Group £4,990.00 The Net £32,300.00 Wolverhampton Inter Faith £5,000.00 The OAK Project on behalf of £50,000.00 Group UK Islamic Mission The Open Centre £28,420.00 Wolverhampton Interfaith £39,834.00 Council with CoWFN, WIFG The Restore Hope Mission £3,600.00 and FRU The Salvation Army, Leeds £5,000.00 Women’s Anand Society £1,000.00 The Springfield Project £3,563.00 Women’s Empowerment £25,000.00 The Three Faiths Forum £50,000.00 Network Vietnamese Development £47,520.00 Woodlands Christian Revival £38,000.00 Centre / Midlands Buddhist Centre Association Worcester Cathedral £4,500.00 The West Wiltshire Interfaith £4,542.00 Development and Restoration Group Trust World Federation of Khoja Shia £4,850.00 Ithnaasheri Muslim Woughton Ecumenical Parish £5,000.00 Communities Council thefaithworks (Connect - our £33,939.00 Yahweh Christian Fellowship £4,900.00 community department) York Interfaith £500.00 Totley Rise Methodist Church £4,950.00 Yorkshire and Humber Faiths £25,000.00 Tower Christian Youth Group/ £4,990.00 Forum Tower Christian Centre Young Jains UK £4,915.00 Tower Hamlets Deanery Synod £27,500.00 Youth Empowerment Scheme £5,000.00 Trinity at Bowes Methodist £48,870.00 Total: £7,042,953.50 Church Ubran Churches Together £4,400.00 Faith Communities Capacity Building Fund (formerly Baptist Church, Projects Funded in Round 2 Handsworth) Organisation Amount awarded UHCOG (United Holy Church £50,000.00 Of God) Trust (AKA Parkhill) African Community Refugee £4,000.00 UK Islamic Mission £5,000.00 Christian Empowerment (Blackheath Branch) Network UKIM Youth Active £5,000.00 (Merseyside) Hindu Cultural £15,000.00 Organisation United Kingdom Punjab £47,000.00 5K Foundation Limited £5,000.00 Heritage Association (UKPHA) Aayatiin Foundation for Relief £3,000.00 United Religions Initiative UK £50,000.00 and development (AFFORD) Uniting Britain Trust (UBT) £49,775.00 Across Communities: The £4,995.00 University of Surrey £17,000.00 Young Peoples’ Project Vedagama Sabha £3,000.00 Act for Change (Formerly £15,000.00 Victoria (Westminster) Muslim £4,265.00 Lessons From The Past Ltd Welfare Trust (LftP)) Voices £3,500.00 Active Faith Communities £18,568.00 Programme Wandsworth Local Strategic £5,000.00 Partnership Multi-Faith African Community £5,000.00 Subgroup Development Association (ACDA) Waterfront Community Church, £31,464.00 Swansea Ahimsa for Quality of Life £5,000.00 Al-Khoei foundation £30,000.00 Welwyn Hatfield Inter Faith £5,000.00 Group All Nations Ministries £8,500.00 Wesley Hall Methodist Church £4,062.00 All Saints Parish Church £5,000.00 West Bridgford Pentecostal £4,200.00 An-Nisa Society £30,000.00 Church (Xtreme Youth Anointed Services Ltd £2,600.00 Ministries) Aspirations and Achievements £5,000.00 West Bromwich & Tipton £5,000.00 Group Community Project Assembly of Masorti £4,985.00 West Midlands Faiths Forum £50,000.00 Synagogues (The Birmingham Foundation) Banbury Area Religious £3,052.00 West Yorkshire Community £4,330.00 Education Centre Chaplaincy Project (WYCCP) Bankfoot Partnership £5,000.00 WA 195 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 196

Faith Communities Capacity Building Fund Faith Communities Capacity Building Fund Projects Funded in Round 2 Projects Funded in Round 2 Organisation Amount awarded Organisation Amount awarded

Barnardo’s (Neville Street £28,277.00 Cross-Links (Christians £3,805.00 Service) Working Together on Buckland Estate) Barnet Multifaith Forum £5,000.00 Culloden Bangladeshi Parents £5,000.00 Bath Interfaith Group £2,390.00 Association (CBPA) Beckton Islamic Association £4,700.00 Cytun (Churches Together in £30,000.00 Bhagwan Valmiki Trust £2,810.00 Wales) Birmingham Faith Leaders’ £15,000.00 Destination Destiny Ltd £4,997.00 Group Diocese of Guildford £16,000.00 Birmingham Foundation (West £29,980.00 Department for Social Midlands Faiths Forum) Responsibility Birmingham Progressive £5,000.00 Divine Communications Trust £20,000.00 Synagogue Dudley Muslim Association £29,500.00 Bishop of Guildford’s £30,000.00 (DMA) Foundation Duke Street Chapel £5,000.00 Bishop Street Methodist Church £4,500.00 East African Community £2,000.00 Blackburn with Darwen £18,900.00 Support Interfaith Council East London Sikh Youth £5,000.00 Board of Deputies of British £30,000.00 East Midlands Churches Forum £5,000.00 Jews East of England Faiths Council £12,000.00 Brighton Buddhist Centre (On £5,000.00 Education for Sustainability £2,500.00 Sun as FWBO Brighton) Network Bristol Buddhist Centre £4,400.00 Emmanuel Church, Youth and £15,000.00 Bristol Muslim Cultural Society £29,800.00 Community Centre (EYCC) (BMCS) Ethnic Minorities Widows and £4,460.00 British Humanist Association £25,000.00 Widowers Organisation UK British Sikh Consultative Forum £29,860.00 Evangelical Alliance (Gweini £11,700.00 Division) British Sikh Women £5,000.00 Organisation Faith Based Regeneration £30,000.00 Network UK Building Bridges in Burnley £29,625.00 Faith in the Future £14,800.00 Building Bridges Pendle £16,000.00 Faith Regen Foundation £20,000.00 Burton Youth for Christ £5,000.00 Faithworks Poole £22,000.00 Cambridge University Faiths £2,500.00 Fishergate Baptist Church £5,000.00 Forum Friends of the Western Buddhist £5,000.00 Canning Town Outlook £17,045.00 Order, Midlands Cardiff Buddhist Centre £2,300.00 Frontier Youth Trust £4,410.00 (FWBO South Wales) Futures Unlocked £9,100.00 Caribbean Islamic Cultural £3,100.00 FWBO (Surrey) £4,956.00 Society FWBO Dharmachakra £5,000.00 Central Peterborough £9,000.00 Ecumenical Partnership (CPEP) Gateshead Interfaith Forum £15,000.00 Chaplaincy to the University of £15,000.00 Gillingham YFC £5,000.00 Glamorgan Gitanjali Multilingual Literaty £3,000.00 Christian Muslim Forum £6,933.00 Circle (GMLC) Globe Community Project £24,497.00 Church Army £29,787.00 Grassroots £9,000.00 Church of God of Prophecy, £20,000.00 Southall Grazrootz £18,200.00 Churches Together in £4,800.00 Great Yarmouth Borough Wide £3,000.00 Oxfordshire Churches Forum City of Bradford YMCA £10,300.00 Green Light Muslim Youth £11,568.00 Forum - Sandwell Clapham and Stockwell Faith £29,545.00 Forum Green Light Muslim Youth £15,000.00 Forum (Dudley) Committee for Minority Ethnic £4,700.00 Anglican Concerns Greenwich Peninsula £29,595.00 Chaplaincy Steering Group Congolese Community Welfare £4,800.00 Association Greenwich Youth for Christ £14,762.00 (GYFC) Connections Pregnancy Crisis £4,880.00 Centre Guru Nanak Gurdwara £29,500.00 (Bedford Trust) Coventry Multi-Faith Forum £3,550.00 Gurudwara Shri Guru £5,000.00 Coventry Sikh Federation £4,000.00 Dashmesh Sahib (“The Crawley Interfaith Network £19,692.00 Gurudwara”) Crayford Christian Fellowship £4,416.00 Hamara HLC £5,000.00 Cross Cultural Ministry in £4,925.00 Heythrop Institute for Religion, £4,525.00 Woking (working title, Across) Ethics & Public Life WA 197 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 198

Faith Communities Capacity Building Fund Faith Communities Capacity Building Fund Projects Funded in Round 2 Projects Funded in Round 2 Organisation Amount awarded Organisation Amount awarded

High Street & Derby Youth £3,000.00 Lion de Juda Church (Formely £13,790.00 Group (HSDYG) Mustard Seed Evangelical Hindu Council of Birmingham £19,600.00 Church) Hindu Cultural Resource £2,455.00 Living Water Satisfies £4,800.00 Centre Llangollen International £15,850.00 Hindu Temple Cultural & £3,000.00 Musical Eisteddfod Community Centre Local Spiritual Assembly of the £4,240.00 Hope City Church £3,000.00 Baha’is of Barnet Hope UK £15,000.00 London Jewish Cultural Centre £20,300.00 Horeb Winning Souls Centre £5,000.00 Losang Dragpa Buddhist £4,860.00 Centre Horsham Interfaith Forum £3,413.00 (formely Horsham Interfaith Lozells Project £10,000.00 Network) Luton Council of Faiths £29,970.00 Hounslow African Welfare £4,993.00 Manchester Cathedral £1,980.00 Association Manchester Jewish Museum £14,642.00 Hounslow Asian and African £29,500.00 Martha’s Oasis £5,000.00 Youth Association (HAAYA) Medway Inter Faith Action £5,000.00 Hull Al Noor Community £10,000.00 (MIFA) Project Middlesbrough Council of £19,000.00 HURT Ltd £20,027.00 Faiths I Serve Ltd £2,300.00 Middlesex New Synagogue £5,000.00 Interfaith MK £4,500.00 Milun Women’s Centre £5,000.00 Interfusion - Portsmouth Youth £17,930.00 Monmouth Diocesan Youth £2,260.00 Diversity Forum Committee Islamic Awareness and £20,000.00 Moseley Inter Faith Group £2,275.00 Education Project MTO College £5,000.00 Islington Faiths Forum (IFF) £13,780.00 Musica Sacra £3,000.00 (Wesley Chapel/ Leysian Mission) Muslim Enterprise £10,000.00 Development Service (MEDS) Jain Sangha of Europe £14,000.00 Muslim Sisters £5,000.00 Jamyang Buddhist Centre Leeds £2,500.00 Muslim Women’s Welfare £8,280.00 Jesus House for all the Nations £20,000.00 Association Jesus Ministries International £3,500.00 Muslim Youth Helpline (MYH) £30,000.00 Northwest Nagarjuna Buddhist Centre £4,000.00 Jewish Care £22,000.00 Narthex Sparkhill £26,830.00 Jewish Representative Council £20,000.00 of Greater Manchester & National Board of Catholic £15,000.00 Region Women Kalapremi (UK) £15,000.00 National Christian Alliance on £12,000.00 Prostitution (NCAP) Karimia Institute £18,750.00 National Hindu Student Forum £4,950.00 Kent Muslim Welfare £15,000.00 (UK) Association Nav-Jeevan Asian Society £5,000.00 Kidz Klub Leeds £5,000.00 New Testament Church of God £5,510.00 King’s Church Trust £7,637.65 New Testament Church of God £20,000.00 Kirklees Racial Equality £25,000.00 Education Department Council Newcastle Diocesan Education £11,880.00 Knights Youth Centre £25,580.00 Board KSIMC of London Hujjat £29,775.00 Newham Refugee Community £5,000.00 Islamic Centre Project Label of Love Limited £3,102.00 Newlyn Trinity Methodist £4,854.00 Lancashire Council of Mosques £30,000.00 Church Lancashire Forum of Faiths £27,775.00 Nexgen Initiatives Limited £16,500.00 Lancaster University £15,000.00 NIFCON (Network for Inter £5,000.00 Chaplaincy Centre Faith Concerns of Anglican Leeds Faiths Forum £15,000.00 Communion) Leeds Muslim Consortium, £25,000.00 Noor Youth Library and £14,125.00 Leeds Education Achievement Reading Club Project North Kirklees Interfaith £17,100.00 Leeds Youth Cell Network £4,700.00 Council (LYCN) North London Central Mosque £29,850.00 Leicester Council of Faiths £29,200.00 Trust Leicester Sikh Centre £4,750.00 North London Muslim £25,520.00 Leo Baeck College £24,700.00 Community Centre LifeLine £25,000.00 One World Week Alsager £2,625.00 Lighthouse Education Service £4,825.00 Open Hands Trust £4,778.00 WA 199 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 200

Faith Communities Capacity Building Fund Faith Communities Capacity Building Fund Projects Funded in Round 2 Projects Funded in Round 2 Organisation Amount awarded Organisation Amount awarded

Patiko Bakers Fort Project £15,000.00 St James’ PCC (Dudley) £4,050.00 Paul & Barny’s Place £3,230.00 St James the Less Church £4,950.00 Peace Mala £25,000.00 (Pimlico) Pecan Ltd £14,980.00 St John’s Church, Waterloo £4,500.00 Plymouth Centre for Faiths & £18,700.00 St Mary’s Church Village Youth £5,000.00 Cultural Diversity Project (Wirral) Poplar Methodist Church £4,999.00 St Thomas Church, Blackpool £4,392.00 Portobello Methodist Church £2,500.00 St Thomas’ Church, Kendal £4,970.00 Preston Faith Forum (PFF) £20,000.00 St. Mary Church, Leamington £27,075.00 Spa Preston Muslim Forum £3,000.00 St. Philip’s Centre for Study & £7,500.00 Preston Muslim Society, £5,000.00 Engagement in a Multi Faith Quwwatul Islam Masjid Society Psychosemitic £10,500.00 Suffolk Inter-Faith Resource £3,500.00 Quaker Social Action £22,773.00 Sutton Ramp Events Ltd £20,000.00 Raghuvanshi Mahajan London £5,000.00 Swansea Faiths Forum £23,145.00 ’Rama’ Swansea Minority Faiths £4,890.00 Reading Faith Forum £19,540.00 Alliance Redbridge Faith Forum (Ilford £22,700.00 Tassibee £20,000.00 Methodist Church) The Baptist Church, St Peter’s £5,000.00 Redbridge Forum Against £20,000.00 Extremism and Islamophobia The Boys’ Brigade London £3,675.00 District Refugee Information Centre £4,974.00 The Businessmen Network (BNt £4,920.00 Regenerate.com £20,000.00 TRUST) Salford University Anglican £3,915.00 The Children’s Society £13,711.00 Chaplaincy The Church Lads’ and Church £6,000.00 Salisbury Cathedral Education £2,500.00 Girls’ Brigade Centre The Churches’ Regional £29,975.00 Sanaton Association £5,000.00 Commission in the North East School Link Project - ’Food 4 £15,000.00 The City Parish of St John the £30,000.00 Thought’ (F4T) Study Support Baptist Project The Clear Vision Trust £23,567.00 SEE (South East Essex) £15,000.00 Interfaith in Action The Council of Christian and £22,700.00 Jews SGI-UK (Soka Gakkai £27,143.00 International - Buddhist The Council of European £4,800.00 Organisation) Jamaats Shree Lohana Mahajan of £2,500.00 The Faith Group of East £28,390.00 Leicester Northamptonshire Sikh Community Care Project £14,768.00 The Faithworks £16,000.00 Sikh Nari Manch UK £6,470.00 The Good Shepherd Misson £4,000.00 Siri Guru Singh Sabha £5,000.00 The Guisborough Bridge £4,904.00 Association Skipton Islamic Society £9,750.00 The Interlink Foundation £22,081.00 Smethwick Islamic Academy £5,000.00 The Islamic Centre of England £12,300.00 Solidarity for Community £16,000.00 Action (SOCOA) The Jewish Lads’ & Girls’ £15,000.00 Brigade (JLGB) Somali Family Support Group £25,639.00 The Jewish Youth Project £25,250.00 Somerset Churches Together £4,000.00 The Kings Arms (The £4,595.00 South Asian Development £17,600.00 Courtyard, Petersfield) Partnership The King’s House Trust £15,000.00 South Poplar & Limehouse £30,000.00 Action for Secure Housing The Lighthouse Cradle (TLC) £15,300.00 Environment The Linx Project £5,000.00 Southampton YMCA £2,500.00 The Local Spiritual Assembly of £6,080.00 Southwark Churches Care £17,831.00 the Baha’is of Brighton Southwark Diocesan Welcare: £28,933.00 The Maximum Life Youth £4,750.00 Faith in Regeneration Project Project Southwark Muslim Women’s £21,245.00 The Multi-Faith Centre at the £9,240.00 Association University of Derby Sri Guru Nanak Sikh Temple - £15,000.00 The United Reformed Church £14,250.00 Huddersfield The Vine Project, Surrey £18,075.00 St Chad’s College £20,000.00 The Woolf Institute (Formerly £28,000.00 St Ethelburga’s Centre for £29,500.00 Centre for the study of Jewish- Reconciliation and Peace Christian Relations) St Hilda’s East Community £29,950.00 The Yorkshire and Humber £5,000.00 Centre Faiths Forum WA 201 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 202

Faith Communities Capacity Building Fund Organisation Name Grant Projects Funded in Round 2 Organisation Amount awarded Red Rose Sports Club £12,000.00 The Midlands International £11,961.00 The Zoroastrian Trust Funds of £19,500.00 Buddhist Association UK Europe (Incorporated) Southwark Cathedral Education £12,000.00 Tipton Young Asian Women’s £4,000.00 Centre Forum The Faith Group of East £12,000.00 Touchstone £2,700.00 Northamptonshire (ENFG) Uganda Muslim Community in £3,600.00 Neighbours in Poplar £12,000.00 UK Rais Academy £11,150.00 Uppingham Road Baptist £2,500.00 Church Fishwick Rangers Youth £10,999.99 Development Scheme Victoria (Westminster) Muslim £4,985.00 Welfare Trust Seed of Hope Family £12,000.00 Organisation Walsall Bangladeshi progressive £3,200.00 society Parkway Methodist Church £11,496.00 Waltham Forest Faith £30,000.00 Hibbert Community £12,000.00 Communities Consultative Regeneration Centre Group The Leeds Jewish £11,750.00 Wayside Community Centre £29,700.00 Representative Council Welwyn Hatfield Inter Faith £4,500.00 Coolshade Community Musical £10,870.00 Group Workshop Wembley International £20,000.00 Rossendale Faith Partnership £12,000.00 Christian Centre St Mary’s Community Centre £12,000.00 Wessex Jamaat £4,920.00 South Shropshire Interfaith £12,000.00 West Yorkshire African £4,500.00 Forum Caribbean Council of Churches Guisborough Bridge £11,050.00 Westbourne Park Family Centre £30,000.00 Association (WPFC) The Harmony Project at Saint £12,000.00 Westminster Muslim Welfare £4,965.00 James Church, Accrington Trust (WMWT) Bradford Cathedral £12,000.00 Wirral Youth for Christ £5,000.00 The Feast £6,000.00 (affiliated to British Youth for Preston Muslim Forum £10,000.00 Christ) The Parochial Church Council £12,000.00 Wolverhampton Interfaith £28,660.00 (PCC) of the Parish of Christ Group and St John, with St Luke, Isle Women Together - Harehills £4,776.00 of Dogs Women’s Interfaith Group Alternatives Trust East London £9,230.00 Women’s Interfaith Network £30,000.00 Lancashire Forum of Faiths £12,000.00 Wood Green Salvation Army £30,000.00 Bolton Interfaith Council £12,000.00 Woodside Church £2,400.00 Vinefruits Community Interest £11,546.00 YMCA Cornwall £4,350.00 Company (CIC) YMCA George Williams £29,960.00 Sudanese Children in Need £11,300.00 College Horn Africa Limited £12,000.00 Young Academicals Tutors £3,900.00 The Radiomarathon Centre £11,830.00 (YAT) Harehills Youth In Partnership £12,000.00 Young Christian Workers £24,850.00 Churches Industrial Group £12,000.00 (YCW) Birmingham Youth Action Ltd £11,865.00 Cambridge Carbon Footprint £10,269.00 Youth Forward Ltd £5,000.00 Ltd Youth Voice £29,750.00 Muslim Women’s Welfare £11,343.00 Total: £3,767,407.65 Association Plymouth Centre for Faiths and £11,750.00 Cultural Diversity Asked by Baroness Warsi Sikh Nari Manch UK £11,804.00 Keighley Asian Women’s and £12,000.00 To ask Her Majesty’s Government which groups, Children’s Centre causes or organisations were funded in each round Sikh Community Centre & £11,750.00 of the Faiths in Action Fund; how much was given Youth Club (SCCYC) to each; and how much funding is to be allocated. St John’s Wood Adventure £11,892.00 [HL1911] Playground Positive Start £11,980.00 Chiltern Racial Equality £11,980.00 Council Access for Support and £12,000.00 Lord McKenzie of Luton: The information requested Development Centre Vision Associates Resource Ltd £12,000.00 is in the table below. The second round of Faiths in (VARL) Action is still open to applications for grants up to Narthex Sparkhill £11,700.00 £6,000, and £2 million is available. WA 203 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 204

Organisation Name Grant Organisation Name Grant

Restore - Birmingham Churches £12,000.00 Southall Community Alliance £10,275.00 Supporting Refugees and St. Philip’s Centre £12,000.00 Asylum Seekers Sikh Union £11,995.00 Wakefield Cathedral £12,000.00 Ward End Asian Elders Welfare £4,850.00 Conflict and Change £12,000.00 Association Islington Faiths Forum £10,608.00 Central London Youth £11,200.00 Brighton Festival of World £11,973.00 Development Trust Sacred Music Ltd Across Communities: The £12,000.00 Longbridge Childcare Strategy £11,000.00 Young Peoples’ Project Group Tameside Third Sector £12,000.00 Community Development £11,585.00 Coalition Institute Sikh Community and Youth £12,000.00 Bexley Multifaith Forum £12,000.00 Service Sandwell Multi-Faith Network £11,518.00 Kent Muslim Welfare £12,000.00 Association Limited Middlesbrough Council of £11,720.00 Faiths J-go Training Limited £11,745.00 Heeley Development Trust £11,883.00 Luton Council Of Faiths £12,000.00 Birmingham Churches Together £12,000.00 Grassroots Programme £12,000.00 Training Getaway Girls £11,991.00 Churches in Reading Women’s £12,000.00 Building Bridges Pendle £12,000.00 Centre National Board of Catholic £12,000.00 Network of Engaged Buddhists £12,000.00 Women FolesHillfields Vision Ltd £12,000.00 The Anchor Project, St £12,000.00 Toynbee Hall £12,000.00 Clement’s Church Makor Charitable Trust £12,000.00 The Peacemakers £11,960.00 Smethwick Youth and £12,000.00 Awaz Utaoh Ltd £11,934.00 Community Centre Preston United Youth £11,962.00 Development Programme Pathways For People £11,600.00 Connect FE £12,000.00 Leeds Muslim Youth Forum £11,501.00 Deen-Faith For All £11,935.00 Active Faith Communities £11,934.00 Christians Aware - Faith £12,000.00 Programme Please note that this Awareness Leicester group has withdrawn. Soft Touch Arts Ltd £11,982.00 Karimia Institute £11,500.00 Birmingham Faith Leaders £12,000.00 Lozells Project £9,200.00 Group Woking People of Faith £11,500.00 Fluid Space Arts £9,260.00 Preston and South Ribble Street £12,000.00 Centre For Multi-Cultural £11,800.84 Pastors Development and Integration Dagenham Bangladeshi Women £12,000.00 (CENMUD) & Children’s Association Loughborough Council of £12,000.00 Faiths St Michael’s Parochial Church £12,000.00 Council Burton upon Trent and District £12,000.00 YMCA Waltham Forest Faith £12,000.00 Communities Forum Acton Community Forum £12,000.00 Pulling Together Asian £11,592.88 Welwyn Hatfield Inter Faith £12,000.00 Women’s Group Group Hillingdon Inter Faith Network £10,850.00 Cornwall Faith Forum £12,000.00 The Portsmouth Friendship £11,718.00 Horsham Interfaith Forum £9,150.00 Centre Salisbury Cathedral Education £4,443.17 Derby Open Centre £12,000.00 Centre Restoration Ministries UK £10,884.00 InterFaith MK £12,000.00 Hackney Association Youth £11,500.00 Sound It Out Community £12,000.00 Club Music Al Ghazali Multicultural Centre £11,972.00 Lewisham Muslim Women’s £6,180.00 Ark T Centre £11,024.00 Group The Lesbian and Gay £11,698.00 St Luke’s CARES (Community £11,896.00 Foundation (The LGF) and Regeneration Enterprises) Anand Mangal Drop-in £10,900.00 Redbridge Faith Forum (RFF) £11,968.40 Luncheon Club Essex Mind & Spirit £11,788.00 Darnall Forum £11,945.00 Warrington Council of Faiths £12,000.00 Community Voice FM Ltd £6,560.00 Bristol Multi Faith Forum £12,000.00 Cambridge Council for £11,911.00 Voluntary Service Southampton Council of Faiths £12,000.00 Deptford Churches Centre £12,000.00 Initiative Interfaith Trust £6,007.00 WA 205 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 206

Organisation Name Grant Organisation Name Grant

Voluntary Action Wokingham £11,903.00 Brent Ladies Football Club £11,488.00 Borough F.A.C.E (Faith, Arts, Culture £2,500.00 Wellingborough Inter Faith £12,000.00 and Environment) Group Aston Vision Association £12,000.00 Minorities of Europe £12,000.00 Free Form Arts Trust £11,900.00 Sacred Space (Oxygen) £11,880.00 Clapham and Stockwell Faith £12,000.00 Barking Muslims Association £9,425.00 Forum Trust (BMA) BTCV London £12,000.00 Dudley Borough Interfaith £11,987.00 Art Beyond Belief £11,960.00 Network Hastings & District Interfaith £12,000.00 Northampton Inter Faith £12,000.00 Forum Forum People’s Voice Media £11,500.00 Leyton Visitation Action Group £11,616.00 Bolton Lads and Girls Club £12,000.00 (LEYVA) Manchester Cathedral £11,479.00 Blackburn with Darwen £10,927.00 Interfaith Forum The Multi-Faith Centre at the £11,872.00 University of Derby Edgeware and District Reform £11,850.00 Synagogue Religious Studies Resource £11,125.00 Centre Wisbech Interfaith Forum £5,790.60 Prescap (Preston Community £11,512.00 Radio Ikhlas £11,989.60 Arts Project) Wirral Youth for Christ £12,000.00 Muslim Mediation Service £11,921.00 Building Bridges In Burnley £12,000.00 The Lighthouse Group (TLG) £11,480.00 Quaker Social Action £11,974.00 Faith Encounter Programme £11,980.00 Communities Together £12,000.00 Project 29 £11,854.34 Central Herts YMCA £12,000.00 Faiths in Action £11,178.45 Bath Interfaith Group £12,000.00 Sunderland Samba FC £11,450.00 UK Lesbian and Gay £12,000.00 Bristol Interfaith Group £12,000.00 Immigration Group The Muslim Jewish Forum of £12,000.00 West Berkshire Minority Ethnic £10,730.00 Greater Manchester Forum Bucks Forum of Faiths £12,000.00 Birmingham Council of Faiths £11,300.00 Great Lever User Group £5,660.00 Herefordshire Multi-Faith £11,989.80 Development Group Women’s Design Service £11,980.00 Council of Ethnic Minority £11,999.96 Preston Faith Forum £12,000.00 Voluntary Sector Organisations ISR - The Churches Council for £5,550.00 Elmbridge Multifaith Forum £11,826.00 Industry & Social Responsibility (Bristol) Southend Community-in- £12,000.00 Harmony Partnership Leeds Faiths Forum £12,000.00 Milton Keynes Council of £12,000.00 Milton Keynes Values £6,112.50 Faiths Influences & Peers (MK-VIP) Surrey Youth Focus £12,000.00 Longton Community Church - £11,970.00 Stoke on Trent Society of Friends (Quakers) – £10,900.00 Dorchester and Weymouth Art and Sacred Places £12,000.00 Preparative Meeting Ravensthorpe Community £11,949.00 Hideaway Youth Project £12,000.00 Centre Ltd St. Barnabas Church, Manor £12,000.00 Faiths Together in Croydon £11,992.00 Park (FTiC) through Croydon Voluntary Action (CVA) St Mary’s Parish Church, Luton £11,900.00 Muslim Youth Foundation £12,000.00 Faiths Together in Lambeth £12,000.00 (FTiL) Nishkam Civic Association £11,955.00 Amber Initiatives £11,800.00 Swindon Mela £12,000.00 Islamic Cultural and £12,000.00 The Energesis Trust £11,900.00 Educational Association Bracknell Forest Voluntary £10,855.00 Young Christian Workers £11,554.00 Action (YCW) All Saints Community Project £12,000.00 Wandsworth Community £12,000.00 Documentary Filmmakers £11,966.00 Empowerment Network Group Parish Church Council - Parish £2,500.00 Gateshead Borough Youth £12,000.00 of Saint Peter, Bury, Lancashire Organisations Council (GYC) Broxtowe Community £11,105.00 Calderdale Interfaith Council £12,000.00 Celebration Group (C.I.C.) The Girls Project £9,528.00 The Maitri Project £12,000.00 Ascendance Rep £11,800.00 Kingston Inter Faith Forum £1,560.00 Hertsmere Forum of Faiths £5,600.00 Bristol Diocesan Board of £12,000.00 Burnley Youth Theatre £9,865.00 Education City of Bradford YMCA £11,809.00 Nottingham Inter Faith Council £10,000.00 WA 207 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 208

Asked by Baroness Warsi Crime: Universal Jurisdiction To ask Her Majesty’s Government which Regional Question Faith Forums were funded in each of the past three Asked by Baroness Northover years; by how much; and how much funding is to be allocated. [HL1912] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have received a request from the United Nations The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Secretary-General under paragraph 1 of United Department for Communities and Local Government & Nations General Assembly Resolution 64/117 for Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of information and observations on the scope and Luton): The Inter Faith Framework, Face-to-Face & application of the principle of universal jurisdiction, Side-by-Side, published in July 2008, made provision including information on judicial practice; and if for funding all nine regional faith forums over the so, whether they have submitted or intend to submit three-year Comprehensive Spending Review period. such a document to the Secretary-General before The total three-year allocation is £1.89 million, 30 April; whether that document includes or will representing £70,000 per annum to each forum. Eight include details of the arrest warrant procedure in of the nine forums have so far drawn down their full the United Kingdom; and whether they will publish allocation. In the financial year 2008-09, eight of the that document. [HL1988] nine forums received additional financial support for specific items amounting to a total of almost £200,000. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth During the current financial year all nine forums were Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): Under UN allocated a further £5,000 each to enable them to General Assembly Resolution 64/117, the UK has support last November’s Inter Faith Week across their received a request from the UN Secretary-General to region. provide information on the scope and application of the principles of universal jurisdiction, including Asked by Baroness Warsi information on judicial practice. The UK does intend To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress to submit a response to this request, and the Government they have made on the development of regional is aware of the deadline for response. All responses Faith Links; what funding has already been allocated; will be published in a report by the UN Secretary-General. and what funding has yet to be allocated. [HL1913] Crime: Violence Lord McKenzie of Luton: The Inter Faith Framework, Face-to-Face & Side-by-Side, published in July 2008, Question set out the four key building blocks for supporting Asked by Baroness Warsi inter-faith activity. We are continuing to explore the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion role that structures such as Faith Links can play in the of violence against the person offences including building block which focuses on “structures and processes physical harm they estimate would not have been which promote dialogue and social action”. There is recorded prior to the introduction of the National no funding allocated to Faith Links. Crime Recording Standard. [HL1856]

Community Cohesion The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord West of Spithead): An online report Question entitled National Crime Recording Standard (NCRS): Asked by Baroness Warsi an analysis of the impact on recorded crime, published in July 2003, evaluated the impact of NCRS on recorded To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much crime figures. The full report can be found here: funding has been allocated to each regional http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/rdsolr3103.pdf development agency to promote community cohesion The report estimates that the introduction of NCRS in 2010–11; and what portion of that funding has lead to a 23 per cent increase in recording of overall been already allocated. [HL1969] violence against the person offences in 2002-03. The analysis carried out for the report did not split violence The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, against the person offences into those with or without Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord injury. Young of Norwood Green): Since April 2002, regional The estimate of 23 per cent relates to an estimated development agencies (RDA) have been financed through effect in the first year of operation of the NCRS. No a single programme budget (the “single pot”). Money similar estimate was made for subsequent years as from the six contributing departments (BIS, CLG, changes continued to be bedded in. However, the DEFRA, DCMS and UKTI) is pooled into one single Audit Commission undertook substantial audit work budget and allocated to the RDAs. While RDAs take on crime recording in the years following NCRS account of community cohesion issues, RDAs do not introduction up until 2006-07, this indicating a generally record expenditure according to community cohesion increasing level of NCRS compliance across forces. as a category of corporate spending. Furthermore, to Furthermore, it is known that some forces had taken separate out this data would incur disproportionate steps to make their recording of crime more victim- cost. oriented prior to the formal introduction of NCRS. WA 209 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 210

Cycling Department for International Question Development: Overseas Projects Asked by Lord Tebbit Question Asked by Baroness Northover To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Lord West of Spithead on To ask Her Majesty’s Government what effect 2 February (WA 16–17), whether the Fixed Penalty the fall in the value of sterling has had on overseas Procedures Working Group collects data on the projects carried out by the Department for International percentage of penalty notices issued for cycling Development. [HL1741] offences which are paid. [HL1869]

Lord Brett: This information cannot be provided The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home without incurring disproportionate cost. Office (Lord West of Spithead): The Fixed Penalty Procedures Working Group does not collect the data in that form. Its role is to provide advice. Development Aid Question Cyprus: Property Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass ensure that development programmes take account To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the of conflicts; how they assess whether development Written Answer by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead assistance in conflict-affected and fragile countries on 2 February (WA 17), what steps they have taken, addresses the causes of conflict and fragility; and as a guarantor power, to reconcile differences between what plans they have to make conflict resolution the Turkish Cypriot Properties Management and and security central to their development policies. Other Measures (Temporary Provisions) Law and [HL1945] the Immovable Property Commission established by the government of the Turkish Republic of Lord Brett: The Department for International Northern Cyprus. [HL1879] Development (DfID) is taking a number of measures to ensure that development programmes take account The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth of conflicts and address the causes of conflict and Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): The Government fragility. DfID has developed a number of analytical has not taken steps in relation to the Properties tools to help factor conflict into decisions about Management and Other Measures (Temporary Provisions) development, including Country Governance Assessment Law in the Republic of Cyprus and the Immovable and Strategic Conflict Assessment. These help DfID Property Commission in northern Cyprus. This is an officials to examine the causes of conflict, in particular internal issue to be addressed on the island and not by the relationship between poverty, development and the guarantor powers. conflict, and to consider the implications for programming. DfID is also updating its country planning processes and guidance to ensure all of its development assistance Deforestation: Compensation in conflict-affected and fragile states is guided by the Question OECD-DAC principles for good international engagement in fragile states and situations, which stress the importance Asked by Lord Dykes of addressing the causes of conflict and fragility. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they The 2009 White Paper Eliminating World Poverty: will hold discussions with the main countries affected Building our Common Future set out the Government’s by deforestation on financial compensation for commitment to treating security and access to justice protecting forests against deforestation. [HL1894] as a basic service. The White Paper pledges to allocate at least 50 per cent of its new bilateral funding to The Minister of State, Department of Energy and fragile countries and those affected by conflict and Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The triple its direct project funding for security and justice. Government are participating in discussions with countries affected by deforestation via the Forest Carbon Partnership Facility demonstration initiative which is establishing Education: Overseas Students a carbon fund for payments to reduce emissions from Question deforestation and a readiness fund to support capacity Asked by Lord Laird building to facilitate participation by forest countries in schemes to deliver such payments. The Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they are are also working bilaterally and multilaterally with ceasing to use visa letters for foreign students applying forest and developed countries to meet the commitment to come to the United Kingdom; what is the difference in the Copenhagen accord for the immediate establishment between such a letter and a confirmation of acceptance of a mechanism to mobilise financial resources from for studies (CAS) form; and why the provision of developed countries to provide positive incentives to passport numbers on CAS forms is compulsory reduce emissions from deforestation. rather than optional. [HL1762] WA 211 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 212

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord West of Spithead): The visa letter is a Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): We are aware paper document given by the Tier 4 sponsor to the of reports made by various human rights organisations, student. A Confirmation of Acceptance for Studies including Human Rights Watch, about incidents of (CAS) is a virtual document, similar to a database intimidation against members of Rwandan opposition record. Sponsors complete an IT-based process that parties. We are monitoring the situation in Rwanda, results in the assignment of a unique reference number. particularly in relation to the elections this year. We A CAS, which replaces the visa letter, cannot be meet regularly with political parties, including both forged and cannot be tampered with. This is a security government and opposition parties. We continue to feature to further reduce the potential for abuse of engage with the Government of Rwanda on the issues Tier 4. As all students require a passport to apply for of registration and functioning of political parties, as leave under Tier 4, either overseas or in the UK, it is well as the wider matter on extending political space not unreasonable for this information to be entered on in Rwanda. the CAS. It is also an added security feature to combat possible fraud. The implementation plan for Tier 4 made clear that Embryology an IT-based system would be introduced in autumn Questions 2009. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Elections: Burundi and Rwanda Written Answers by Lord Truscott on 25 June 2007 Question (WA 96–8) and by Lord Drayson on 15 January 2010 (WA 197), how the research councils have Asked by Lord Chidgey engaged with concerns raised by Professor Robin To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support Lovell-Badge and Professor Austin Smith about the they are providing to long-term observation missions use of public money for certain types of stem cell to monitor elections in (a) Burundi, and (b) Rwanda, work, reported on 2 February 2010; and to what extent they have evaluated the impact of any such in 2010. [HL2050] publication bias on the peer review system. [HL1804]

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): The elections The Minister of State, Department for Business, this year in both Burundi and Rwanda remain a top Innovation and Skills and Ministry of Defence (Lord priority for the UK. In both countries, peaceful elections Drayson): The Medical Research Council (MRC) will mark an important step in institutionalising the considers excellence as the primary consideration in democratic process. The presence of international observer taking decisions on which proposals to fund and all missions, both from the region and further afield (such research proposals submitted to the MRC are subject as the EU and Commonwealth) constitute an important to stringent scientific peer review. Considerable emphasis part of this process. is placed on the written proposal submitted. The MRC does not rely solely on the record of published papers; As a member state, the UK discusses the issue this is just one aspect of an application that is taken regularly with the European Commission. While the into account. The MRC has not been made aware of European Commission seeks the views of member any evidence that would support the suggestion of any states on a proposed priority list of countries for EU publication bias in the peer review system. Election Observer Missions (EOM), it ultimately falls to the European Commission themselves to decide Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool where these will be deployed. Similarly, the terms and To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the resourcing for any EU EOM are also ultimately a Written Answer by Lord Drayson on 28 January decision for the European Commission. (WA 365), what are the (a) prefix, and (b) title, of The UK welcomes the declaration by Commonwealth each file held by the Better Regulation Executive on Secretary-General Sharma that a Commonwealth Election the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. Observer Mission will go to Rwanda for the elections, [HL1805] due to be held in August. To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Lord Drayson on 28 January (WA 365), what recent representations the Better Elections: Rwanda Regulation Executive has received regarding the Question Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. [HL1806] Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the To ask Her Majesty’s Government, what assessment Written Answer by Lord Drayson on 28 January they have made of recent reports by Human Rights (WA 365), whether they will place in the Library of Watch and other human rights organisations of the House a copy of each piece of written evidence incidents of intimidation against members of Rwandan presented to the Better Regulation Executive on the opposition parties in the run-up to the forthcoming Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. presidential election. [HL2051] [HL1807] WA 213 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 214

To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the abortion and involuntary sterilisation violate the human Written Answer by Lord Drayson on 28 January and reproductive rights of individuals. The Department (WA 365), whether they will place in the Library of for International Development (DfID) does not support the House a copy of each piece of research any organisations that engage in such practice. commissioned by the Better Regulation Executive The UK has committed £100 million to the United on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority; Nations Population Fund’s Global Programme for and what the cost was of each. [HL1808] Reproductive Health Commodity Security over the period 2007 to 2012. DfID has committed £42.5 million The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, to the International Planned Parenthood Federation Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord over the period 2008 to 2015. Young of Norwood Green): The Human Fertilisation Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool and Embryology Authority is one of 36 national regulators who have been subject to a Hampton Implementation To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Review. The review was conducted last year. The review Written Answer by Baroness Thornton on 14 January team consulted a range of the authority’s stakeholders (WA170–1), whether the mistake concerning research as part of the review process. Guidance on the process licence numbers has occurred with respect to other is available at: http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file48275.pdf. research licences; and whether the Human Fertilisation Formal written evidence was submitted to the review and Embryology Authority’s Head of Information both by the authority and by external stakeholders. checked the information provided and cited reference Copies of the relevant documents will be placed in the numbers used by the authority to track applications Library of the House, with two exceptions. These for licences and renewals of licences. [HL1948] exceptions are where the relevant external stakeholders of the authority have asked for their submissions not to be published and where documents contain potentially Baroness Thornton: The Human Fertilisation and sensitive information about individuals and their Embryology Authority (HFEA) has advised that it is permission to publish has not been obtained. As with not aware that the human error the noble Lord refers all Hampton reviews, before the report is published to has occurred elsewhere relating to its records about there is dialogue between the body being reviewed and research licences. The reference numbers to which the the review team to ensure that the evidence is correct noble Lord refers are suffixes to licence numbers. and the findings of the review are balanced and based These suffixes have no relevance to the accuracy of on correct evidence. This dialogue is not appropriate data but refer instead to the sequencing of licences for for publication. The findings and evidence to support individual research projects. those findings is found in the published report on the authority available at: http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/ Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool file53852.pdf To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the The Better Regulation Executive has not commissioned Written Answer by Baroness Thornton on 8 February any research on the authority, and there are consequently (WA 81), whether the Human Fertilisation and no related costs. Embryology Authority has lost any records following There are two relevant electronic files held by the a request from researchers. [HL2007] Better Regulation Executive on the authority, with the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the short titles Policy Development: Public Health: Tissues Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, in and Embryos, and Hampton Implementation Reviews: considering applications for animal-human hybrid HFEA. embryos, takes into account practice in other countries Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool which allow such embryos. [HL2008] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will make funding to the International Planned Baroness Thornton: The Human Fertilisation and Parenthood Federation and the United Nations Embryology Authority (HFEA) has advised that it Population Fund dependent on those bodies not considers applications for the creation of human admixed supporting or participating in the management of a embryos in line with the requirements of the Human programme of coercive abortion or involuntary Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 (as amended). sterilisation. [HL1809] As outlined in my Written Answer of 9 November 2009 (Official Report, col. WA 110-11), the process Lord Brett: The United Kingdom is fully committed used to determine whether to grant a research licence to the Programme of Action of the International is set out in a decision tree used by the HFEA’s Conference on Population and Development (ICPD), research licence committee. This can be found on the which agreed that human rights and gender equality HFEA’s website at www.hfea.gov.uk/1128.html. should guide population and development policy. This The HFEA has received numerous requests from includes the respect for reproductive rights and provision researchers since its establishment in 1991, including of universal access to sexual and reproductive health 703 requests under the Freedom of Information Act services, including family planning. since 2005 alone. The authority has advised that the The UK only supports organisations that comply information sought by the noble Lord on records lost with the human rights principles endorsed by the following requests by researchers could only be supplied international community at the 1994 ICPD. Coercive at disproportionate cost. WA 215 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 216

Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Energy: Generation Projects To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Question Written Answer by Baroness Thornton on 8 February Asked by Lord Jenkin of Roding (WA81–2), what are the costs of providing information about the number and nature of Human Fertilisation To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the and Embryology Authority licence conditions or answer by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath on 3 February other sanctions. [HL2058] (HL Deb, col 198), what are the energy generation To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the projects for which (a) consent has been given, and Written Answer by Baroness Thornton on 8 February (b) construction is taking place. [HL1887] (WA 81–2), whether any previous chief executive of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority was approached by anyone wishing to make a The Minister of State, Department of Energy and disclosure, as described in the Authority’s document Climate Change (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The on Public Interest Disclosure; and what was the table below shows consents granted by the Department outcome of any such disclosures. [HL2059] of Energy and Climate Change (and previously the To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Department of Trade and Industry and the Department Written Answer by Baroness Thornton on 8 February for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform) for (WA 81–2), what was the misconduct in the five electricity generating stations in England and Wales cases referred to; how many individuals were charged since 1 January 2007. with misconduct in each of those cases; what were Applications for consent for onshore electricity the consequences in each case; how long those generating stations of up to and including 50 MW are charged with misconduct had been employed by the made to local planning authorities under the Town Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority and Country Planning Act 1990 (TCPA). A spreadsheet (HFEA); and in what capacity any employees guilty showing the data for renewables projects a) consented of misconduct were subsequently employed by the and b) under construction under the TCPA regime in HFEA or the Department of Health. [HL2060] England and Wales in the last 3 yrs has been deposited in the Libraries of the House. Baroness Thornton: The Human Fertilisation and According to the latest Energy Markets Outlook Embryology Authority (HFEA) has advised that it Report (December 2009), 9GW of new electricity has a record of two individuals approaching the previous generating plant is currently under construction chief executive with a public interest disclosure. These (paragraphs 2.4.4 & 4.3.11). This can be viewed at: individuals were not members of HFEA staff and, http://www.decc.gov.uk/Media/ therefore, were not covered by the document referred viewfile.ashx?FilePath= to in my Written Answer of 8 February (Official What_we_do\UKenergysupply\Energymarkets\outlook\1_ Report, col. WA 81-2). One approach followed an 20091216110910_e_@@_energyMarketsOutlook2009.pdf HFEA inspection and resulted in the individual meeting &filetype=4 with members of the HFEA Executive. The outcome was an unannounced inspection and subsequent Date of Type of Maximum consideration by a HFEA licence committee. The decision Company / location project output other disclosure was anonymous, so it was not possible to pursue in the same way. The HFEA has also advised 04.11.2009 Renewable Energy Biomass + 79 MW Ltd, Peterborough, EfW that it is unable to provide any information regarding Fengate disclosures which may have been made to all other 27.08.2009 Tilbury Green Power Biomass & 60 MW chief executives since 1991. Ltd, Tilbury Docks, EfW The HFEA has advised that of the five cases of Essex misconduct mentioned in my Written Answer, four 11.08.2009 Peel Environmental Refuse 95 MW were unauthorised absence and one was misuse of Ince Ltd, Ince, Derived email. One person was charged with misconduct in Cheshire Fuel 15.07.2009 MGT Teesside Biomass 295 MW each of these cases. One case resulted in an oral Limited, Teesside warning, two cases resulted in the individual leaving Renewable Energy the employment of the HFEA and in the two remaining Plant, Teesport cases, where the individuals involved appealed the 22.04.2009 Norsea Pipelines Ltd, CHP 800 MW findings of the misconduct inquiries, their appeal was Seal Sands, Teesside CCGT upheld. Those concerned were employed for periods 05.02.2009 RWE Npower CCGT 2000 MW ranging from five months to three years and six months. Pembroke The HFEA is of the view that it is not appropriate to 05.02.2009 Centrica Leasing CCGT 1020 MW (KL), Kings Lynn B, provide further detail on these cases, due to the risk of Norfolk identification of those involved. 05.02.2009 Powerfuel Power, CCGT & 900 MW The HFEA has advised that providing information Hatfield Park, IGCC on the number and nature of licence conditions or Doncaster other sanctions, requested by the noble Lord, would 08.01.2009 CRE Energy, Land Onshore 16.1 MW involve scrutinising every licence issued since 1991 and adjacent to Alcan Wind Smelter, Lynemouth, Farm cross-referring to licence committee minutes, inspection Northumberland reports, incident reports and press cuttings. WA 217 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 218

Date of Type of Maximum Date of Type of Maximum decision Company / location project output decision Company / location project output

03.12.2008 Gwynt y Mor Offshore 750 MW 17.09.2007 EDF (Northern Offshore 100 MW Offshore Wind Farm, Wind Offshore Wind, Wind Ltd, Gwynt y Mor - Farm Farm), Teesside Farm off North Wales 21.08.2007 London Array Ltd, On-shore 1000 MW 21.10.2008 Centrica (Lincs), Off Offshore 250 MW Land to the north of sub- Lincolnshire Wind Cleve Hill, Farm, near station to Farm Graveney in Kent offshore Wind 16.09.2008 Ineos Chlor, West CUP - 100 MW Farm Point, Runcorn EFW 17.08.2007 Severn Power Ltd, CCGT 800 MW 04.09., Ormonde Energy, Offshore 150 MW Uskmouth, Newport 2008 Ormonde - East Irish Wind Sea, *replaces Farm 13.07.2007 Bridestones Power CCGT 380 MW previous Wind Farm, Ltd, Carrington, consent issued on Manchester 09.02.2007 19.02.2007 Greater Gabbard Offshore 500 MW Offshore Wind Farms Wind 04.09.2008 Morecambe Wind Offshore 500 MW Ltd, Outer Thames Farm Farm Ltd, West of Wind Estuary Duddon Sands - East Farm Irish, Sea 09.02.2007 Ormonde Energy Offshore 108 MW Limited, Ormonde - Wind 28.08.2008 Thor Cogeneration, CHP 1020 MW East Irish Sea Farm Seal Sands,Teesside CCGT 09.02.2007 Eclipse Energy Offshore 93 MW 07.08.2008 Scira Offshore Offshore 315 MW Limited, Ormonde - gas station Energy, Greater Wash Wind East Irish Sea Farm 07.08.2008 Npower Renewables, Onshore 75 MW Middlemoor, Wind Glossary: Northumberland Farm 30.07.2008 Bridestones CCGT 860 MW EFW - Energy from waste Developments Ltd, (ext from CCGT - Combined cycle gas turbine Carrington previous 380MW) IGCC - Integrated gasification combined cycle 16.06.2008 Helius Energy, Bio-mass 65 MW CHP - Combined heat & power Hobson Way, Stallingborough, Lincs EU: Non-compliance 07.04.2008 Pulse Tidal, Upper Tidal 0.15 MW Burcom, River power Question Humber Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon 28.02.2008 E.ON UK Onshore 66 MW Renewables Ltd, Wind To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Tween Bridge, Farm Written Answer by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead Doncaster on 1 February (WA 6), what is the severest sanction 28.02.2008 Dong Energy, Offshore 64 MW that the European Union can impose on member Gunfleet Sands II - Wind states which refuse to pay fines after further infraction Outer Thames, Farm proceedings under articles 258 and 260 of the Treaty Estuary on the Functioning of the European Union have 28.02.2008 Renewable Energy Onshore 85 MW been unsuccessful. [HL1867] Systems, Keadby, Nth Wind Lincs Farm 19.12.2007 Barking Power Ltd, CCGT(ext 1000 MW The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Barking Power from Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): For serious Station, previous and persistent breaches the European Union “may Dagenham,Essex 470MW) decide to suspend certain of the rights deriving from 20.11.2007 PrenergyPower Ltd, Biomass 350 MW the application of the Treaties to the Member State in Puckey House, Port question, including the voting rights of the representative Talbot Docks of the government of that Member State in the Council” 07.11.2007 Walney Dong Ltd, Offshore 600 MW Walney - East Irish Wind (Article 7 of the Treaty on European Union). Sea Farm 30.10.2007 EDF Energy, West CCGT 1270 MW Burton Power Station, Export Credits Guarantee Department Nottinghamshire Questions 16.10.2007 E.on UK, Drakelow, CCGT 1220 MW South Derbyshire Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach 09.10.2007 Devon Wind Farm Onshore 66 MW To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Power, Fullabrook Wind projects involving credit terms of less than two Down, North Devon Farm years have been supported by the Export Credits 17.09.2007 SWRDA Wave Hub, Wave 20 MW Guarantee Department in each of the past five Off North Cornwall energy years; and what is their total value. [HL1882] WA 219 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 220

The First Secretary of State, Secretary of State for whether ECGD will continue to screen all projects for Business, Innovation and Skills and Lord President of the use of child labour, on which the Government will the Council (Lord Mandelson): In respect of contracts respond in due course. with less than two years credit terms, the number of insurance policies/guarantees issued by ECGD in each Finance: Alternative Investment Market of the past five years, including aggregate contract values, was: Questions Asked by Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Year Number Value To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the 2005 8 £ 50.45 million answer by Lord Myners on 27 January, what are the 2006 13 £ 100.54 million definitions in the European directive on prospectuses 2007 5 £6.17 million which prevent Alternative Investment Market-listed 2008 1 £0.42 million shares being eligible for inclusion in an ISA. 2009 7 £19.69 million [HL1670] Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the estimated cost of allowing Alternative Investment To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Market shares to be eligible for inclusion in an ISA. projects of less than £10 million in value have been [HL1671] supported by the Export Credits Guarantee Department in each of the past five years; and what To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps was the total value of such projects in each year. would need to be taken to allow Alternative Investment [HL1883] Market-listed shares to be included in an ISA. [HL1672]

Lord Mandelson: In respect of contracts under £10 The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury million, the number of insurance policies/guarantees (Lord Myners): The UK tax system differentiates between issued by ECGD in each of the past five years, including listed and unlisted shares for tax purposes. One of the the aggregate contract values, was: qualifying conditions for the eligibility of shares for ISA tax relief is that they must be listed on a recognised Year Number Value stock exchange. 2005 11 £45.70 million HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) now generally 2006 15 £33.41 million uses the term “admitted to trading on an EU Regulated 2007 7 £7.39 million Market under Title III of the Markets in Financial 2008 4 £15.50 million Instruments Directive (MiFID)”, to determine which securities would meet the HMRC definition of “listed”. Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach AIM is not an EU regulated market under Title III of MiFID, and so shares traded on it do not meet that To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many definition. projects were screened for the use of child labour by the Export Credits Guarantee Department in each No estimate is currently available for the cost to the of the past five years. [HL1884] Exchequer of permitting AIM shares to be eligible for ISA tax relief, given the wider considerations noted below. Lord Mandelson: The total number of insurance To enable AIM-listed shares to be included within policies/guarantees issued by ECGD where the contracts an ISA, the Government have to amend the ISA were screened for the use of child labour in each of the regulations. In doing so, the Government would have past five years was: to consider the risk to ISA investors of allowing not only shares held on AIM, but potentially all other Year Number secondary markets worldwide, to be eligible for ISA 2005 29 tax relief. The Government would also have to review 2006 22 the wider tax reliefs currently available to AIM-listed 2007 12 shares, which would mean reconsidering advantageous 2008 7 treatment for AIM shares around inheritance tax, and 2009 9 access to the enterprise investment scheme (EIS) and venture capital trusts (VCT). Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Financial Institutions: Auditors Export Credits Guarantee Department will continue Questions to screen all projects for the use of child labour. [HL1885] Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much Lord Mandelson: The Government are currently was spent by central government departments and carrying out a public consultation on proposed revisions their agencies on audit services in each of the last to the Export Credits Guarantee Department’s (ECGD) five years for which information is available. business principles and ancillary policies, including on [HL1729] WA 221 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 222

The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury Lord Myners: Individual central departments are (Lord Myners): Central government has spent the responsible for determining the criteria to be used for following on audit services for each of the last five including firms on their approved lists for audit services. years: The Treasury does not maintain a central record of the criteria used. Figures in £ millions 2008-09 2007-08 2006-07 2005-06 2004-05 Financial Institutions: Environmentally 19.9 18.0 17.0 15.9 12.8 Friendly Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Asked by Baroness Scott of Needham Market they have taken to ensure they are getting value for To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures money from audit firms; and what steps they are are in place to ensure that where financial institutions taking to ensure that medium-sized firms have access offer products claiming to be driven by environmental to tender processes. [HL1730] considerations their claims are easily verifiable by consumers. [HL1820] The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): Individual government departments The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury are responsible for ensuring they obtain value for (Lord Myners): This is a matter for the Financial money from the contracts they enter into with audit Services Authority (FSA). I have asked the FSA to firms. Contracts will be subject to the procurement write to the noble Baroness on the issue that she raises. rules and practices of each government department, but will be based on the policy and standards framework maintained by the Office of Government Commerce, Gaza and should comply with the principles of fair and open competition. Question It is the Government’s policy to encourage and Asked by Baroness Tonge support all small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) to compete for public sector contracts where this is To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions consistent with value for money policy and UK they have had in the European Union about supplies regulations, EU treaty principles and EU procurement of diesel fuel to the central power station in Gaza. directives. The Office of Government Commerce provides [HL1673] government departments with guidance on opening supply opportunities to SMEs, building effective Lord Brett: Officials of the Department for relationships with them, and removing some of the International Development (DfID) are in regular contact barriers they can face in the delivery of government with the European Union regarding supplies of diesel contracts. The Government-supported web-portal fuel to the central power station in Gaza. www.supply2gov.gov.uk also offers consolidated access Until November 2009, the European Union (EU) to lower-value opportunities from across the UK public provided ¤9 million per month for the supply of sector, improving the visibility of public procurement 8.8 million litres of industrial diesel for the power opportunities. station in Gaza. The EU has clarified that the ending Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay of this support was the subject of a comprehensive discussion with the Palestinian Authority (PA), in To ask Her Majesty’s Government what which it was agreed that EU funds should be focussed investigations they have undertaken into the possible on other priorities. The PA has since undertaken to savings that might be achieved from using audit bear the cost of fuel from its own budget. services of smaller firms not currently on approved Asked by Baroness Tonge lists. [HL1731] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions Lord Myners: The procurement of such services is they have had in the European Union and with the responsibility of individual government departments non-governmental organisations concerning power who are encouraged to use the services of small and supplies in Gaza. [HL1674] medium sized firms wherever this is consistent with good value for money. Lord Brett: Officials of the Department for The Treasury is, however, currently consulting International Development (DfID) are in regular contact departments on proposals that aim to deliver internal with the European Union, United Nation (UN) agencies, audit work across government in a more efficient and and non-governmental organisations (NGOs) regarding effective manner whether internally or externally sourced. power supplies in Gaza. Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay Around one-third of Gaza’s power needs are provided by Gaza’s electricity plant. The restrictions on fuel To ask Her Majesty’s Government what criteria supply means that the plant does not run at full are used to determine whether a firm can be put on capacity, leading to power cuts of four to five hours a the approved list for audit services. [HL1732] day for several days each week. NGO and UN partners WA 223 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 224 have noted the impact of power shortages on the numbers are available in the DASA Defence Statistics fragile public health situation in Gaza. In health facilities, publication. The majority of MoD civilian staff earn increased disruptions to the power supply mean that less than £20,000 per year. important medical procedures need to be put on hold; Details of the number of staff below the SCS who they also result in greater wear and tear on hard-pressed received a non-consolidated performance payment, back-up generators. Water supplies are irregular as and the average and maximum values are set out in the pumps do not work during power outages, and the table below. capacity of the waste water system to deal with sewage is affected leading to overflows and discharge of raw Financial Financial and partially treated sewage into the sea. Financial Year Year Cooking gas is used for both the preparation of Year 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 food and heating. In the last two months the amount Number of staff who 46,200 52,170 60,700 of cooking gas imported into Gaza has varied between received a non- 24 per cent and 42 per cent of the pre-blockade levels. consolidated performance NGOs have highlighted this shortfall as a significant payment Average value of non- £518 £590 £677 humanitarian concern, particularly during winter. Periodic consolidated performance consignments of petrol and non-industrial diesel are payment allowed into Gaza for UN Relief and Works Agency The value of maximum £3,750 £4,695 £5,500 use, but supplies for the open market thorough the non-consolidated Payment crossings have been sporadic. The bulk of Gaza’s diesel and petrol needs are met by supplies brought through tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border. The MoD also operates an in year non-consolidated payment scheme, the Special Bonus Scheme (SBS) which rewards eligible MoD civilians for exceptional Government Departments: Bonuses performance in a specific task or for the achievement of a professional qualification the use of which benefits Question MoD and the individual. Additionally Ministry of Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay Defence Police (MDP) officers may be awarded a payment for exceptional performance when dealing To ask Her Majesty’s Government for each of with a particularly demanding one-off task or situation; the last three years for which figures are available, unpleasant one-off tasks or situations; or important how many people were eligible for performance one-off tasks or situations. bonuses and special bonuses in the Ministry of Defence and its agencies, by civil service band; how The table below details how many people received a many people received each type of bonus, by civil non-consolidated in-year variable pay award, the average service band; what the average payment was for and maximum payment for the non-consolidated variable each type of bonus, by civil service band; and what pay award. the maximum payment was for each type of bonus, by civil service band. [HL4] Financial Financial Financial Year Year Year 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 The Minister for International Defence and Security Number of staff who 8747 7028 9688 (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): An element of the MoD received a overall pay award is allocated to non-consolidated nonconsolidated variable pay related to performance. Non-consolidated performance payment variable pay awards are funded from within existing Average value of non- £378 £408 £409 pay bill controls, and have to be re-earned each year consolidated against pre-determined targets and, as such, do not performance payment add to future pay bill costs. The value of maximum £2,000 £2,000 £2,000 non-consolidated For details on the maximum and average payments payment for staff in the Senior Civil Service I refer the noble Lord to the Answer given in the other place on 26 January 2010, (Official Report, col. 796W) to the honourable Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech). In Government Departments: Cars 2006-07, 271 SCS staff were eligible for a non-consolidated Question performance payment; 181 received one. In 2007-08, 266 were eligible and 186 received an award. In 2008-09, Asked by Lord Laird 268 were eligible and 187 received an award. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the For staff below the SCS, performance awards are cost of providing official cars for (a) ministers, and paid to staff who meet the eligibility criteria. Higher (b) officials, in the financial years 2003–04, 2004–05, levels of award are available for those who have contributed 2005–06, 2006–07 and 2007–08. [HL1927] most to the business. These awards are distributed on the basis of relative assessment among peers and are designed to encourage continuous high attainment The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): against stretching objectives. All MoD broader banded The Government Car and Despatch Agency is responsible and Skill Zone staff below the SCS are eligible for a for providing ministerial transport in line with the non-consolidated performance payment. MoD civilian Ministerial Code. WA 225 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 226

I refer the noble Lord to the Written Ministerial £1,276 million to £884 million (31 per cent) over the Statements of 26 July 2007 [Official Report, cols. WS 100- three years from 2005-06 to 2007-08, the latest year for 101] and 22 July 2008 [Official Report, col WS142] in which figures are available. relation to information on numbers and costs for The latest year for which figures are available is Ministers for 2005-06, 2006-07 and 2007-08. 2007-8. A breakdown of spend on consultancy and I would also refer the noble Lord to a Written advisory work by department is available at: Answer of 30 June 2008 given by the then Parliamentary www.ogc.gov.uk/professional_services_ Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the honourable consultancy_value_programme. asp. Member for Poplar and Canning Town [Official Report The Pre-Budget Report announced that consultancy cols 578-80W] with regard to information on numbers spend across government would be further reduced by and costs for Ministers 2003-04 and 2004-05. 50 per cent by 2011-12. The cost of providing official cars for ‘officials’ for the years 200708 and 2006-07 is as follows: Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay

Department 2007-08 Charge (£) To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they have taken to ensure they are getting value for DTI/BERR 69,316.01 money from consultancy and advisory firms; and CABINET OFFICE 266,208.47 what steps they are taking to ensure that medium DCMS 14,663.00 sized firms have access to tender processes. [HL1709] DCS F 49,780.14 DfES 16,593.38 Lord Myners: The Office of Government Commerce DFID 19,765.00 is leading a Consultancy Value Programme (CVP) DFT 68,375.62 across government to ensure that better value for DWP 60,207.44 money is achieved from public sector spend on HEALTH 70,782.07 consultancy.The CVP helped reduce central Government HMT 63,571.82 spend on consultancy and advisory work in the 16 NIO 67,081.62 largest-spending departments from £1,276 million in Total 766,344.58 2005-06 to £884 million (31 per cent) in 2007-08 by providing a range of initiatives and tools to help Department 2006-07 Charge (£) procurers and end users of consultancy to identify CABINET OFFICE 78,176.80 when consultancy is the best solution; to ensure the DCMS 66,971.99 procurement business case is robust; and to feel confident DfES 63,515.22 they are extracting best value out of the relationship with the consultancy supplier. DFT 64,698.31 DTI 66,971.99 The Pre-Budget Report announced that consultancy DWP 61,321.00 spend across Government would be further reduced HEALTH 68,388.48 by 50 per cent by 2012. HMT 67,880.80 To ensure that SMEs have equal opportunities to N I O 64,116.66 bid for government business, an OGC / BIS programme, Total 602,041.24 Access for All, is currently implementing the recommendations made in the Glover committee report Information on the cost of providing official cars Accelerating the SME Economic Engine. for “officials” for the years 2003-04, 2004-05, 2005-06 More detail about the recommendations and could only be obtained at a disproportionate cost. continuing progress on their implementation can be Since 1 April 2009, departments publish on a quarterly found via the following weblink: http://www.ogc.gov.uk/ basis the business costs for Director Generals and key_policy_principles_creating_opportunities_for_smes_ above. This will include the cost of the provision of an and_third_sector_organisations.asp official car. Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay Government Departments: Consultancy To ask Her Majesty’s Government what investigations they have undertaken into possible Services savings from using consultancy and advisory services Questions of smaller firms not on approved lists. [HL1710] Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much Lord Myners: Government do not maintain lists of was spent by departments and their agencies on approved suppliers. However, Buying Solutions operates consultancy and advisory work in each of the last a management consultancy and accounting services five years for which information is available. framework agreement. Suppliers can bid to be on [HL1708] framework agreements when such contracts are let by Buying Solutions or individual departments. In these The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury cases, as with all public sector contracts, it is for (Lord Myners): Central government departments’ individual departments and agencies to determine what spending on consultancy and advisory work in the constitutes best value for money in resourcing their 16 largest-spending departments decreased from requirements for consultancy and advisory services. WA 227 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 228

In 2006, NAO investigated central Government’s Cabinet Committees is in a form which enables use of consultants and made specific recommendations Ministers to reach informed decisions having regard to improve the way it assesses the need for, procures, to such advice. [HL1738] and uses them. In response, OGC launched the Consultancy Value Programme (CVP) in collaboration The Attorney-General (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): with government departments, to ensure that better The form and content of the Law Officers’ advice is a value for money is achieved from consultancy within matter for the Law Officers. The Ministerial Code sets government. Consequently, central Government spend out the procedures for providing such advice to Cabinet on consultancy has decreased by 31 per cent over three or Cabinet Committees. years, from £1,276 million in 2005-06 to £884 million in 2007-08. The Pre-Budget Report announced that consultancy spend across government would be further Hillsborough Castle Agreement reduced by 50 per cent by 2012. Questions The Government recognise the benefits that smaller Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass consultancy firms can offer, and are taking steps to facilitate their participation in public procurement. To To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in ensure that SMEs have equal opportunities to bid for relation to Section 3.3 of the agreement at Hillsborough government business, an OGC / BIS programme, Access Castle of 5 February, there was any or full consultation for All, is currently implementing the recommendations with and consent by Sir Reg Empey and Margaret made in the Glover committee report, Accelerating Ritchie that they would co-chair a Working Group. the SME Economic Engine. [HL1951] More detail about the recommendations and continuing progress on their implementation can be Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The agreement at found via the following weblink: http://www.ogc.gov.uk/ Hillsborough Castle presumes no such consent. Section key_policy_principles_creating_opportunities_for_smes_ 3 sets out the intention of the First and Deputy First and_third_sector_organisations.asp Ministers to invite Sir Reg Empey and Margaret Ritchie to co-chair the Working Group that will consider how the Executive might function better and how delivery Government Departments: Muslim might be improved. Organisations Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in Asked by Baroness Warsi relation to sections 1.2 and 1.3 of the Agreement at Hillsborough Castle of 5 February, the appointment To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of the Justice Minister is intended to set a precedent meetings the Home Secretary and ministers in his for the appointment of other Northern Ireland department have had with Muslim organisations in Executive Ministers, rather than by the d’Hondt each of the past three years; and what were the system; and whether that is in line with the Belfast purposes of the meetings. [HL1576] agreement or the St Andrews agreement. [HL1953]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The arrangements to Office (Lord West of Spithead): Ministers in the Home appoint the Justice Minister by a cross-community Office routinely meet with a wide range of organisations vote in the Northern Ireland Assembly reflect the to discuss and communicate the business of the particular circumstances of the new Department of department. Justice. No precedent as regards other Ministers is intended to be set by the Justice Minister being appointed in this manner and other ministerial portfolios will Government: Law Officers continue to be filled by the d’Hondt method. Neither Questions the Good Friday agreement nor the St Andrews agreement made specific provision for the appointment of the Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill Justice Minister. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the constitutional conventions and principles governing Housing Benefit the circumstances in which Ministers of the Crown may seek to influence the advice given by Law Question Officers of the Crown to the Executive on matters Asked by Baroness Byford of law or the public interest. [HL1736] To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the To ask Her Majesty’s Government who has the Written Answer by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary constitutional responsibility to ensure that the Cabinet of State for Work and Pensions, Helen Goodman, and Cabinet Committees receive relevant advice on 30 November 2009 (HC Deb, col. 391W), whether from Law Officers of the Crown on matters of law they will collate the information necessary to establish or the public interest. [HL1737] how many people in receipt of a local housing To ask Her Majesty’s Government who has the allowance do not have a bank account; and what constitutional responsibility to ensure that advice payment arrangements are made for such people. from Law Officers of the Crown to the Cabinet or [HL1920] WA 229 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 230

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, cent have already been removed, whilst those remaining Department for Communities and Local Government & continue to either serve their sentence, are held in Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of UKBA detention pending removal, are monitored Luton): The department is not able to collect information under UKBA contact management controls pending on the number of people in receipt of housing benefit removal or have been established as British citizens or under the Local Housing Allowance scheme that have similar and thus not appropriate for deportation. a bank account. Housing benefit data is collected The figures are based on internal management from local authorities’ administrative systems, and information cross referenced with management this information is not collected as part of this process. information provided by the National Offender Manager If a housing benefit customer does not have a bank Service. As such, it should be considered provisional account, local authorities decide what payment analysis and will exclude those cases where minor data arrangements to put in place. variations do not allow a matching of records without referral to individual case files. Human Rights Asked by Baroness Warsi Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many people (a) took, and (b) passed, the Life in the UK Asked by Lord Laird Test in each month of 2009. [HL1855] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have submitted any observations in response to the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights in Taxquet v Belgium (application 926/05); and, if Lord West of Spithead: The attached table shows so, what view they have taken on future jury trial the number of people who took the Life in the UK arrangements. [HL1974] Test and how many passed throughout 2009.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry 2009 No. of tests delivered Passes of Justice (Lord Bach): The Government were given Jan 17,187 13,038 permission to intervene in the case of Taxquet on Feb 18,332 13,542 27 July 2009 and made written submissions to the Mar 22,236 16,248 Grand Chamber on 15 September. The Government Apr 18,229 13,384 submitted that the fundamental principle of United May 16,341 12,267 Kingdom law that jury deliberations are absolutely Jun 15,167 11,370 privileged and juries are not required to give reasons Jul 15,821 11,970 for their verdicts is in accordance with the requirements Aug 15,539 11,786 of Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Sep 16,305 12,202 Rights. Oct 15,975 11,877 When the Grand Chamber gives its judgment on Nov 14,995 10,956 the application we will consider any implications for Dec 12,529 9,195 jury trial arrangements. Total 198,656 147,835

Immigration Questions Asked by Baroness Warsi Immigration: Deportation To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Question Written Answer by Lord Bach on 7 December 2009 (WA 88), whether the 3,659 foreign nationals who Asked by Baroness Warsi received a custodial sentence of 12 months in 2008 To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many have now been removed from the United Kingdom. foreign national prisoners were deported in each of [HL1726] the last three years. [HL1871] To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Lord Bach on 7 December 2009 (WA 88), whether the 3,203 foreign nationals who received a custodial sentence of 12 months in 2007 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home have now been removed from the United Kingdom. Office (Lord West of Spithead): Published figures for [HL1727] the UK Border Agency show that in 2007 over 4,200 foreign national prisoners were removed or deported, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home in 2008 almost 5,400 were removed or deported and in Office (Lord West of Spithead): Of those people identified quarters 1-3 of 2009 3,890 were removed or deported. by the National Offender Management Service as Figures for those removed or deported in the period foreign nationals who received a custodial sentence of from October to December 2009 will be published on 12 months or more in 2007-08, approximately 40 per 25 February 2010. WA 231 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 232

Immigration: Yarl’s Wood covered in description 6 in Schedule 1 to the regulations fall within the definition of nationally significant Question infrastructure set out in the Planning Act. Asked by Lord Hylton Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many they have made of the cause of the recent hunger pipelines exist of the type covered in description 16 strike at Yarl’s Wood Detention Centre; how many in Schedule 1 to the Infrastructure Planning people were arrested; how many suffered injuries; (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations and how many were locked down within the Centre. 2009 (SI 2009/2263) for the transport of (a) gas, (b) [HL2010] oil, and (c) chemicals. [HL1850]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord West of Spithead): A passive protest was undertaken by some of the residents of Yarl’s Wood Lord McKenzie of Luton: The Health and Safety Immigration Removal Centre over the weekend of Executive has confirmed that there are currently in 6 to 7 February which was resolved on Monday existence 65 gas pipelines and less than 10 pipelines 8 February. carrying other substances such as oil and chemicals which meet the specification listed in description 16. No arrests were made although four women were detained by Bedford Police under immigration Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach administrative powers. The incident was resolved without any use of force. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether One woman sustained a minor cut to her finger for application W/09/1258 to Warwick District Council which medical treatment was given. for a new marina qualifies under description 12 of the Infrastructure Planning (Environmental Impact In total, 47 women were involved in the disturbance, Assessment) Regulations 2009 (SI 2009/2263). in three different parts of the centre. [HL2075] The incident is subject to a management review. Infrastructure Planning (Environmental The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Impact Assessment) Regulations 2009 Department for Communities and Local Government & Questions Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach Luton): The Infrastructure Planning (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations 2009 apply to To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many applications for development consent for nationally installations exist of the type covered in description 5 significant infrastructure projects as defined in the in Schedule 1 to the Infrastructure Planning Planning Act 2008. The regulations do not apply to (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations applications made to local planning authorities for 2009 (SI 2009/2263). [HL1848] projects below the thresholds defined in the Planning Act. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Luton): The Infrastructure Planning (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations 2009 apply to International Planned Parenthood applications for development consent for nationally Federation significant infrastructure projects as defined in the Planning Act 2008. No installations of the type covered Question in description 5 in Schedule 1 to the regulations fall Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool within the definition of nationally significant infrastructure set out in the Planning Act. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach will place in the Library of the House copies of the annual reports of the International Planned To ask Her Majesty’s Government what will be Parenthood Federation for each of the last two the minimum size of a chemical installation under years, together with any other publications showing description 6 in Schedule 1 to the Infrastructure its budget, activities and lobbying. [HL1843] Planning (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations 2009 (SI 2009/2263); and how many exist that would be covered by that description. [HL1849] Lord Brett: I will arrange for copies of the annual report of the International Planned Parenthood Lord McKenzie of Luton: The Infrastructure Planning Federation (IPPF) for each of the last two years to be (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations 2009 placed in the Library of the House. We will also place apply to applications for development consent for copies of the Partnership Programme Arrangement nationally significant infrastructure projects as defined that the Department for International Development in the Planning Act 2008. No installations of the type (DFID) currently has with IPPF in the Library. WA 233 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 234

Israel and Palestine The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): Since Question 13 December 2009, my ministerial colleagues have Asked by Lord Dykes discussed the issues arising from the UK’s arrest warrant procedure in cases where there is universal jurisdiction To ask Her Majesty’s Government what with Israeli Ministers. Since this issue has been in the representations from the public they have received media, Government officials have also been asked by in the last 12 months about a one-state solution to US and EU counterparts for updates about the issue, the Palestine–Israel situation. [HL1816] which we have provided.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): We have received Korea several letters, in the last 12 months, from the public Question suggesting a one-state solution. However, we will continue to focus our efforts on a two-state solution, which we, Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool along with the United States and the international community, believe is in the interest of both the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Palestinians and the Israelis. will propose co-hosting with the government of South Korea an international summit on human rights on the Korean peninsula. [HL1947] Israel: Imports and Exports Question The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): We have no Asked by Lord Hylton plans to co-host with the Government of South Korea To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the a summit on human rights in the Korean peninsula. total value of European Union exports to Israel in We regularly participate in international meetings on each of the last three years; and what was the total human rights. Last week, our embassy in Seoul value of imports from Israel to the European Union participated at the International Donor Conference on North Korea at which human rights were discussed. in each of the last three years. [HL1940] Chatham House is proposing to hold a human security conference in North Korea later this year which we The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury will attend and support. (Lord Myners): The responsibility for information about European Union exports to and imports from Israel lies with Eurostat (the Statistical Office of the European Communities). Such data can be accessed via the Marine Environment: British Indian Ocean following website: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/ Territory newxtweb/. Question For your information, the above website provides the following data: Asked by Lord Wallace of Saltaire EU27 trade with Israel, 2006 to 2009 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the EUR Billions declaration of a Marine Protected Area in the PERIOD IMPORT EXPORT British Indian Ocean Territory would impose limits on the operation of the United States/United Kingdom Jan-Dec 2006 10.0 14.0 base on Diego Garcia. [HL1954] Jan-Dec 2007 11.4 14.3 Jan-Dec 2008 11.2 14.0 Jan-Oct 2009 7.3 9.2 The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Source: COMEXT database, Eurostat Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): A decision on Note: For 2009, data is only available for January to October whether to establish a Marine Protected Area the British Indian Ocean Territory has not yet been taken. The use of the facility on Diego Garcia is governed Justice: Arrest Warrants by a series of Exchange of Notes between the UK and US and imposes treaty obligations on both parties. Question Because of these treaty obligations, we have been Asked by Baroness Northover discussing the possible creation of a marine protected area with the US. Neither we nor the US would want To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they the creation of a marine protected area to have any have received representations from other states since impact on the operational capability of the base on 13 December 2009 in relation to the United Kingdom’s Diego Garcia. For this reason, and as has been set out arrest warrant procedure in cases where there is in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office public universal jurisdiction for United Kingdom courts; consultation document, it may be necessary to consider and, if so, which states have made such representations. the exclusion of Diego Garcia and its three-mile territorial [HL1878] waters from any marine protected area. WA 235 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 236

National Identity Register and, if so, on what dates they were enrolled on the National Identity Register. [HL1700] Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Asked by Baroness Warsi Secretary of State for International Development and other ministers in his department have National To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Identity Cards; and, if so, on what dates they were Attorney General has a National Identity Card; enrolled on the National Identity Register. [HL1701] and, if so, on what date she was enrolled on the National Identity Register. [HL1496] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Secretary of State for Defence and other ministers To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the in his department have National Identity Cards; Home Secretary and ministers in his department and, if so, on what dates they were enrolled on the have National Identity Cards; and, if so, on what National Identity Register. [HL1702] dates they were enrolled on the National Identity Register. [HL1497] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and other To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the ministers in her department have National Identity Secretary of State for Communities and Local Cards; and, if so, on what dates they were enrolled Government and ministers in his department have on the National Identity Register. [HL1703] National Identity Cards; and, if so, on what dates they were enrolled on the National Identity Register. [HL1498] Lord West of Spithead: The Identity & Passport To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Service holds in confidence on the National Identity Secretary of State for Justice and ministers in his Register personal information about who has been department have National Identity Cards; and, if issued with an identity card. Under Section 27 of the so, on what dates they were enrolled on the National Identity Cards Act, it is not permissible for the Home Identity Register. [HL1499] Office to disclose or verify information from any individual’s record on the National Identity Register To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the in this manner. Prime Minister has a National Identity Card; and, if so, on what date he was enrolled on the National Section 27 of the Identity Cards Act only permits Identity Register. [HL1500] disclosure or verification of such information in certain circumstances, for example to an organisation that is prescribed under Sections 17 to 20 of the Act or one The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home that is approved under Section 12 of the Act and has Office (Lord West of Spithead): The Identity & Passport obtained the individual’s consent to obtain that Service holds in confidence on the National Identity information. Register personal information about who has been issued with an identity card. Under Section 27 of the Asked by Lord Bates Identity Cards Act, it is not permissible for the Home To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Office to disclose or verify information from any Secretary of State for the Environment, Food and individual’s record on the National Identity Register Rural Affairs and other ministers in his department in this manner. have National Identity Cards; and, if so, on what Section 27 of the Identity Cards Act only permits dates they were enrolled on the National Identity disclosure or verification of such information in certain Register. [HL1713] circumstances, for example to an organisation that is prescribed under Sections 17-20 of the Act, or one To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the that is approved under Section 12 of the Act and has Secretary of State for Health and other ministers in obtained the individual’s consent to obtain that his department have National Identity Cards; and, information. if so, on what dates they were enrolled on the National Identity Register. [HL1714] Asked by Lord Bates To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Chancellor of the Exchequer and other ministers in and other ministers in his department have National HM Treasury have National Identity Cards; and, if Identity Cards; and, if so, on what dates they were so, on what dates they were enrolled on the National enrolled on the National Identity Register. [HL1715] Identity Register. [HL1698] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and and other ministers in his department have National Skills and other ministers in his department have Identity Cards; and, if so, on what dates they were National Identity Cards; and, if so, on what dates enrolled on the National Identity Register. [HL1716] they were enrolled on the National Identity Register. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the [HL1699] Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the and other ministers in his department have National Secretary of State for Transport and other ministers Identity Cards; and, if so, on what dates they were in his department have National Identity Cards; enrolled on the National Identity Register. [HL1717] WA 237 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 238

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the play a leading role in international efforts against Leader of the House of Commons has a National money laundering, including the Financial Action Identity Card; and, if so, on what date she was Task Force (FATF) and the EU Committee for the enrolled on the National Identity Register. [HL1718] Prevention of Money Laundering and Terrorist Finance. It should also be noted that in 2009 the UK signed Lord West of Spithead: The Identity & Passport up to further sanctions against North Korea under Service holds in confidence on the National Identity UN Resolution 1874, placing restrictions on financial Register personal information about who has been institutions providing services to North Korea and issued with an identity card. Under Section 27 of the requiring enhanced vigilance by member states. While Identity Cards Act, it is not permissible for the Home aimed at reducing the threat from the proliferation of Office to disclose or verify information from any weapons of mass destruction, such measures also individual’s record on the National Identity Register serve to strengthen international anti-money laundering in this manner. controls. Section 27 of the Identity Cards Act only permits disclosure or verification of such information in certain circumstances, for example to an organisation that is prescribed under Sections 17 to 20 of the Act or one that is approved under Section 12 of the Act and has obtained the individual’s consent to obtain that Northern Ireland Office: Freedom of information. Information Act 2000 Question NHS: Primary Care Trusts Asked by Lord Laird Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Asked by Earl Howe requests for information the Northern Ireland Office has received under the Freedom of Information To ask Her Majesty’s Government what deadline Act 2000 in each year since 2005; and how many they have set for primary care trusts in England to they have accepted. [HL1932] complete their Commissioners’ Investment and Asset Management Strategies; what assessment they have made of whether trusts will submit their strategies on time; and whether they will penalise any trusts Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The Freedom of that do not have a complete strategy in place by the Information Act 2000 came into operation on 1 January deadline. [HL1971] 2005. The following table provides details of the number of requests received by the Northern Ireland Office Baroness Thornton: Enabling New patterns of Provision (NIO), how many were withheld in full, partially (DH, January 2009) requires primary care trusts (PCTs) withheld and the number that were not met as the to agree with their strategic health authority (SHA) a department did not hold the information requested. clear and realistic strategy for the future of the community estate by 31 March 2010. The performance of PCTs in 2009 meeting requirements set by national guidance in this 2005 2006 2007 2008 (Q1-3) way is managed by SHAs. Number 187 215 166 183 196 Enabling New Patterns of Provision has already of been placed in the Library and is also available requests on the department’s website at www.dh.gov.uk/en/ received Information 24 29 30 23 21 Publicationsandstatistics/index.htm. withheld in full Information 42 31 17 36 18 North Korea: Human Rights partially Question withheld Information 40 39 65 49 63 Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool not held To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the answer by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead on 2 February (HL Deb, col 114), what assessment The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) has committed to they have made of claims that significant amounts publishing quarterly updates in relation to departmental of dollars have been laundered through banks in performance under FoI, including information on both Switzerland and Luxembourg by leaders of the the volume and outcome of requests. The bulletins North Korean regime. [HL1877] up to the 2009 third quarter can be found on the MOJ website at http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury freedomofinformationquarterly.htm and in the Libraries (Lord Myners): The Government are not able to comment of both Houses. The MoJ will be publishing information on matters of intelligence. However the Government from the 2009 fourth quarter in spring 2010. WA 239 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 240

Northern Ireland: Human Rights and Privileges Committee; and whether it took Commission account of the First Minister being party to the Agreement at Hillsborough Castle. [HL1949] Questions

Asked by Lord Laird Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The Secretary of State To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the was referring specifically to the findings from Paul Northern Ireland Office was asked to sanction the Maguire QC that “on the material provided his considered visit to Uganda in September and October 2009 by view was that there were no breaches whatsoever by the Chief Commissioner of the Northern Ireland me of the Ministerial Code, the Ministerial Code of Human Rights Commission; and whether the cost Conduct, the pledge of office and the seven principles of the visit was met by the Commission. [HL1329] of public life”.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The Northern Ireland Official Secrets Act Office (NIO) was not asked to sanction the visit and Question there was no requirement for the NIO’s approval to be Asked by Lord Laird sought. The NIO was informed that an invitation had been received and accepted. The chief commissioner To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether all of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission Ministers are subject to the Official Secrets Acts. visited Uganda from 27 September to 4 October 2009 [HL1928] at the invitation of the Irish ambassador to Uganda. The purpose of the visit was to share lessons from The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness working in societies coming out of conflict, and it Royall of Blaisdon): Yes, Ministers are subject to the included meetings with the Ugandan Human Rights Official Secrets Act. Commission and the British ambassador to Uganda. Costs were covered by the Irish Government. Older People Asked by Lord Laird Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Asked by Lord Elton Northern Ireland Office was asked to sanction the To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they visit to East Timor by the Chief Commissioner of advertised the consultation on Building a Society the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission for All Ages; by what means; for how long; and at in November and December 2009; and whether the what cost. [HL2040] cost of the visit was met by the Commission. [HL1330] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The Northern Ireland Luton): Following the publication of Building a Society Office (NIO) was not asked to sanction the visit and for All Ages on 13 July 2009, a series of 19 consultation there was no requirement for the NIO’s approval to be events were held across England in Wales between sought. The NIO was informed that an invitation had 9 September and 26 October. These events and other been received and accepted. The chief commissioner opportunities to get involved in the consultation were of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission advertised in a number of ways: visited East Timor from 26 November to 6 December copies of Building a Society for All Ages were 2009, at the invitation of Nuala O’Loan, the Irish posted to 12,200 people and organisations; Government’s Special Envoy to East Timor. The focus of the visit was on gender-based violence in conflict we advertised the consultation events on the situations, using UN Security Council Resolutions www.hmq.gov.uk website; (1325 and 1820) to take forward this work. Costs were we worked with Age UK and the UK Advisory covered by the Irish Government. Forum on Ageing to promote the consultation events and to encourage as wide a range of people as possible to respond to the consultation either online or in writing; Northern Ireland: Peter Robinson we published a discussion guide for those Question organisations that wanted to run their own consultation events and distributed 1960 copies of Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass this; and To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the we invited people who had been involved in a series statement on the BBC “Today” programme by the of discussion events that helped inform the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Shaun development of the strategy to take part in the Woodward, saying Peter Robinson has “cleared his consultation. name” from allegations made in a BBC programme, The consultation period lasted 13 weeks and closed took account of the investigations by the Northern formally on 12 October 2009—although due to the Ireland Assembly’s Committee on Standards and postal strike we accepted responses received after this Privileges and the House of Commons Standards date. WA 241 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 242

Printing and initial distribution of the strategy and No. of No. of discussion guides cost £78,354.73. No other costs were Lost Stolen incurred in advertising the consultation on the strategy. Year Totals Passports Passports Other

2004 275,040 212,745 50,737 11,558 2005 286,988 230,011 45,709 11,268 Passports 2006 290,996 237,879 41,830 11,287 Questions 2007 303,572 251,751 41,393 10,428 2008 296,018 249,261 38,120 8,637 Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno 2009 272,963 232,852 32,276 7,835 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they plan to continue personal interviews for passport Patents: Single European Patent applicants, given that only two applications out of Question 291,190 were rejected in 2009. [HL1473] Asked by Lord Dykes The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Office (Lord West of Spithead): Yes we remain committed they have made of proposals for the single European to the use of personal interviews for passport applicants patent to be available in only one international and as part of our efforts to identify fraudulent passport one country of origin language. [HL1891] applications. Identity interviews were added to the passport process The Minister of State, Department for Business, primarily to address first-time application fraud through Innovation and Skills and Ministry of Defence (Lord deterrence and fraud detection arising from a personal Drayson): The UK supports an EU patent system interview. In addition to the two instances of confirmed which delivers real benefits for business by reducing fraud mentioned in the Answer of 19 January 2010, the cost of protecting innovation across Europe. One Official Report col. WA 242, applications have also of the main costs of patenting in Europe is the cost of been withdrawn when customers are advised that an translations. The UK therefore supports a reduced identity interview is required. From September 2007 language regime for the EU patent which will significantly to June 2009 which is the latest information available, cut patenting costs. An approach based on one 1,816 applications were withdrawn at this stage. Together international and one country of origin language does this information underlines the usefulness of the interview not relate to any formal proposal currently being as a deterrent to those attempting to make a fraudulent discussed in the EU and has not been assessed by the passport application. government. However, we will judge all detailed proposals on their merits as they emerge. Also, attendance in order to obtain a first passport is a requirement in France, Germany, Australia, Japan, and the United States, among other countries. Police: Northern Ireland Asked by Baroness Warsi Question Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many British passports were reported stolen or misplaced To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many in each of the last 12 years. [HL1875] burglaries have been reported to the Police Service of Northern Ireland in each of the last eight quarters; how many burglaries involved breaking into the Lord West of Spithead: Updated procedures and homes of older people when the occupants were supporting systems for reporting lost, stolen and recovered present; and whether the current sentencing guidelines UK passports were introduced in December 2003. for burglaries are effective. [HL1760] Information relating to lost, stolen and recovered UK passports from the current system is therefore available The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness for the last six years (from 2004) only. Royall of Blaisdon): The following table details the The following table sets out the number of UK total number of burglaries that have been reported to passports that have been recorded as lost, stolen or the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) in each recovered since 2004. The category “Other” is used by of the past eight quarters, including the number and the Identity and Passport Service predominantly when percentage of burglaries where the victim/householder a passport is declared damaged or destroyed. was over 65 years of age.

Total number of burglaries, domestic burglaries and domestic burglaries where the victim/householder is Age 65+ Total Burglaries Total Total Domestic Burglary % of Domestic Burglaries % Domestic Burglaries (Domestic and Domestic victim/Householder where Victim/Householder where age of Victim/ Non-Domestic) Burglary age 65+ age 65+ Householder unknown

Jan-Mar 2,993 1,744 235 13.5 5.9 2008 Apr-Jun 2,989 1,690 167 9.9 4.6 2008 WA 243 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 244

Total number of burglaries, domestic burglaries and domestic burglaries where the victim/householder is Age 65+ Total Burglaries Total Total Domestic Burglary % of Domestic Burglaries % Domestic Burglaries (Domestic and Domestic victim/Householder where Victim/Householder where age of Victim/ Non-Domestic) Burglary age 65+ age 65+ Householder unknown

Jul-Sep 2,904 1,673 238 14.2 4.2 2008 Oct-Dec 3,296 1,935 305 15.8 3.6 2008 Jan-Mar 3,285 2,053 371 18.1 4.3 2009 Apr-Jun 3,225 1,846 277 15.0 3.8 20091 Jul-Sep 3,149 1,829 255 13.9 4.5 20091 Oct-Dec 3,132 1,781 313 17.6 5.7 20091 Source: Central Statistics Unit, PSNI 1 Figures for the current financial year from 1 April 2009 are provisional and will be subject to change.

The proportion of these which occurred when the Lord McKenzie of Luton: The then Minister for victim was present cannot be calculated without incurring Local Government John Healey met with representatives disproportionate cost. of Association of British Ports to discuss the impact The Northern Ireland Court of Appeal delivers of the Valuation Office Agency review of the rating of guideline judgments on sentencing practice to support ports in February 2009. sentencers in determining the most appropriate sentence The review of ports by the Valuation Office Agency and encourage consistency. Regard may also be given was carried out in order to ensure that all individual to published sentencing guidelines in England and business properties within, and outside, ports are rated Wales. The age and vulnerability of the victim is one fairly to distribute the burden of contributions to the of a number of aggravating factors which can be taken funding of local government services is shared equitably into account in determining the sentence in individual between businesses around the country. cases. The Government have listened to the concerns of businesses with significant and unexpected backdated bills, including some within ports. It has legislated to Ports: Business Rates enable such bills to be repaid over an unprecedented eight years rather than in a single instalment, helping Questions affected businesses to manage the impact on their cash Asked by Lord Bates flows during the downturn by reducing the amount they are required to pay now by 87.5 per cent. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what meetings As at 8 October 2009, local authorities reported the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and that ratepayers occupying 221 properties within ports Skills and the Secretary of State for Communities had fully discharged their backdated liability and and Local Government have had about the backdating ratepayers occupying a further 200 business properties of business rates to 2005 for port-side operators. within ports had been granted a schedule of payments. [HL1934] Asked by Lord Bates To ask Her Majesty’s Government what advice The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, they have issued to the Valuation Office Agency Department for Communities and Local Government & concerning the collection of arrears of backdated Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of business rates from port-side operators as a result Luton): The review of ports by the Valuation Office of the revaluation in 2005. [HL1938] Agency was to ensure that all individual business properties within and outside ports are rated fairly to The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury ensure that the burden of contributions to funding (Lord Myners): None. The Valuation Office Agency is local government is shared fairly amongst businesses not responsible for the calculation or collection of around the country. business rate liabilities which is the responsibility of Ministers have regular meetings and discussions on the local (billing) authority. a range of issues including the subject of business rates. Poverty Asked by Lord Bates Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool they have had with the Association of British Ports To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures with regard to the repayment of rebates in business they have taken to implement the recommendations rates which they have received in respect of the in the White Paper Eliminating World Poverty: business rates levied on port-side operators since building our Common Future on security and access 2005. [HL1935] to justice. [HL1946] WA 245 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 246

Lord Brett: The 2009 White Paper Eliminating World Prisoners: Education Poverty: Building our Common Future committed the UK Government to triple spending on security and Questions justice to £120 million per year by 2012-13. Asked by The Earl of Listowel The Department for International Development To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether their (DfID) is developing a number of new or expanded approach to prisoner education takes account of programmes to meet this commitment. We have already the research by A. Pike and T. Irwin into improving agreed multi-year programmes in the Democratic Republic access to higher education and distance learning in of Congo (£60 million), Bangladesh (£37 million), prisons. [HL1962] Nigeria (£30 million), Sudan (£20 million), Nepal (£12 million) and Yemen (£7 million). We are also The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, updating our programming guidance, based on the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord latest evidence and lessons learnt, to maximise the Young of Norwood Green): Yes it does. The Government impact of this increased spending. have taken close account of the research conclusions DfID is also working to build an international in Improving access to higher education and distance partnership on security and justice. This has included learning in prisons in developing strategies for the working with the United Nations Rule of Law Unit delivery of learning in custody through modern and the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and technologies. Development International Network on Conflict and To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether their Fragility to promote greater co-ordination between approach to prisoner education takes account of donors on security and justice issues. Wings of Learning: the role of the prison officer in supporting prisoner education by T. Braggins and J. Talbot. [HL1963] Prime Minister’s Office: Pay Gaps The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Question of Justice (Lord Bach): There is no explicit reference to learning advocates in the prison officer role. The majority Asked by Baroness Warsi of education delivered in prisons in England and Wales is delivered by trained teachers though there are To ask Her Majesty’s Government what the pay a number of officer instructors who work and supervise gaps were in respect of gender, race and disability prisoners in workshops. Prison officers have a number among employees in the Prime Minister’s Office on of tasks to fill which will change depending on their the latest date for which figures are available. existing role. But a key component of the vast majority [HL1874] of an officer’s role will involve interacting, supporting and encouraging prisoners. Part of this process will be The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness to encourage and motivate those prisoners who will Royall of Blaisdon): The Prime Minister’s Office forms benefit from education. part of the Cabinet Office. Asked by The Earl of Listowel The latest information for which figures are available To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, on the pay gap in Cabinet Office in respect of gender is following the transfer of responsibility for the education published on the Office for National Statistics website. of young offenders from Learning and Skills Councils This information is also shown below: to local authorities, funds from local authorities to provide education to young offenders may be used Grade Male Female % Difference to fund the development of prison officers as learning advocates, the training of prison officers in paired Senior Civil £74,480 £68,390 8.2 reading or the development of prison officers in Service supporting prisoner education. [HL1964] Grade6&7 £45,920 £46,840 -2.0 (Band A) Lord Bach: The Learning and Skills Council (LSC) HEO & SEO £30,400 £30,190 0.7 assumed responsibility for the planning and funding (Band B2) of learning and skills delivery in public sector prisons EO (Band B1) £23,690 £24,260 -2.4 and young offenders’ institutions (YOIs) in England, AO&AA £ 19,690 £19,690 0 (Band C) in August 2006. Last year, the LSC extended an invitation to tender (ITT) as part of a procurement process for learning Because of the small numbers in individual pay and skills provision in YOIs and adult prisons; these bands, robust conclusions cannot be drawn from the contracts commenced on 1 August 2009 as part of a analysis on pay gaps in respect of race and disability new five-year contracting round. for the Cabinet Office. However, information on earnings From September 2010 the contracts will transfer to for the Civil Service as a whole in respect of race and the host local authorities (LA) (the LA area within disability is also published on the Office for National which the YOI is based). In assuming their new Statistics website. The relevant tables are “32” (gender), responsibilities the host LAs will inherit an agreed bed “27” (race) and “27” (disability) and can all be found price funding methodology for YOIs. The bed price is at this link: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/ based on a national education cost per custodial place. theme_labour/Civil-service-tables-2009-final.xls The bed price requires the education provider to deliver WA 247 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 248 a minimum of 15 hours of learning and skills per Prisons: Costs young person, per week. The funds will be voted by the Government to LAs through the Young People’s Question Learning Agency (YPLA). Asked by Lord Laird The Youth Justice Board (YJB) recently funded a project at HMYOI Wetherby which trained prison To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the officers to provide a similar function to learning and average annual cost of keeping a prisoner in jail in support assistants. The officers are active participants (a) Northern Ireland, and (b) England; and what is in the classroom, offering one-to-one support and the average length of time it takes to bring a prisoner assisting with group work. A second YJB-funded project to trial in each of those jurisdictions. [HL1647] at HMYOI Feltham trained prison officers to give them the skills to deliver sessions from an accredited life skills course. The officers deliver sessions on independent living, including budgeting and cooking, as well as writing a CV and preparing for job interviews. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: In 2008-09 the average cost per prisoner place in Northern Ireland was £81,340, Prisoners: Education and in England and Wales it was £45,000. Information Question specific to the average length of time it takes to bring a prisoner to trial in Northern Ireland is not available; Asked by The Earl of Listowel however official statistics relating to the average time To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they taken to bring criminal cases to the onset of trial in plan to adopt in England and Wales the use of Northern Ireland for each of the three court tiers prison officers as learning advocates, as in Northern during 2008-09 is published on the CJSNI website and Ireland. [HL1961] is also shown in the following table.

Criminal Justice Performance Standards: Performance during 2008/09 Desired standard2 (to be achieved by Court Stage1 2006 Baseline2 2008-09 Performance2 % Improvement 31 March 2011)

Crown Court (Pre-committal) 201 168 16 140 Charged to PPS Decision issued Magistrates’ Court Adult Charge Cases. Charged to 70 44 37 54 PPS Decision issued Adult Summons Cases. Accused 200 185 8 146 Informed to First Appearance Youth Courts Youth Charge Cases. Charged to 62 48 23 35 PPS Decision issued Youth Summons Cases. Accused 198 186 6 132 Informed to First Appearance

Notes: 1. Monitoring data for all stages are based on persons committed for trial (Crown Court standard only) or persons dealt with in the courts (Magistrates’ and Youth Court standards). Performance data reflect cases investigated by PSNI only. All statistics exclude defendants issued with a bench warrant during the course of proceedings. 2. Average Calendar days.

Figures relating to the most recent average times to Railways: Timetables trial for England and Wales are available from the Ministry of Justice website: www.justice.gov.uk/ Question publications/courtstatisticsquarterly.htm Asked by Lord Moonie To ask Her Majesty’s Government what directions have been given to Network Rail and the Office of Rail Regulation to reduce the practice of operators However, it should be emphasised that average time extending timetabled journey times to improve figures are not directly comparable between Northern punctuality statistics. [HL2077] Ireland and England and Wales on account of different practices regarding charging, summonsing and committal which have arisen for historical reasons. The Northern Ireland Criminal Justice Board has recently approved The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): an extensive programme of work covering case Network Rail is responsible for producing the national preparation, case progression and governance / rail timetable, and detailed processes are in place accountability arrangements to secure significant governing the way that timetables are constructed. improvements in the timely progress of cases. The Department for Transport does not direct Network WA 249 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 250

Rail, nor has it included any guidance to this effect in Departments Sponsored Regulatory Bodies its statutory guidance to the Office of Regulation. It is expected that Network Rail will devise efficient British Potato Council timetables which reflect the time actually required by Centre for Environment, trains to complete their journeys. Fisheries and Aquaculture Science (CEFAS) Food and Environment Research Agency Regulatory Bodies Forestry Commission Questions (NMGD) Natural England Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours Drinking Water Inspectorate To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the Rural Payments Agency titles of all regulatory bodies reporting to departments. Plant Health and Seeds [HL1923] Inspectorates Plant Varieties and Seeds Inspectorate The First Secretary of State, Secretary of State for Marine and Fisheries Agency Business, Innovation and Skills and Lord President of Meat Hygiene Service the Council (Lord Mandelson): The table below lists the titles of all regulatory bodies reporting to departments. Office of Water Services (NMGD) Fish Health Inspectorate Departments Sponsored Regulatory Bodies Environment Agency Cabinet Office Charity Commission for Gangmasters Licensing England and Wales (non- Authority ministerial government department—NMGD) National Bee Unit of the Central Science Laboratory Department for Business, British Hallmarking Council Innovation and Skills Pesticides Safety Directorate Coal Authority Veterinary Laboratories Agency Companies House Veterinary Medicines Competition Commission Directorate Consumer Focus Department for Transport Driver and Vehicle Licensing Employment Agency Agency Standards Inspectorate Driving Standards Agency Financial Reporting Council Highway Agency Hearing Aid Council Maritime and Coastguard Insolvency Service Agency Office for Rail Regulation National Measurement Office (NMGD) Ofcom Vehicle and Operator Services Office of Fair Trading Agency (NMGD) Vehicle Certification Agency Office of Fair Access Civil Aviation Authority Postal Services Commission Renewable Fuels Agency (NMGD) Department for Work and Health and Safety Executive UK Intellectual Property Pensions Office The Pensions Regulator Department for Children, Office of the Qualifications Schools and Families and Examinations Regulator Department of Health Care Quality Commission Office for Standards in Food Standards Agency Education—OFSTED (NMGD) (NMGD) Healthcare Commission Department for Communities English Partnerships Human Fertilisation and and Local Government Embryology Office for Tenants and Social Human Tissue Authority Landlords General Social Care Council Planning Inspectorate Postgraduate Medical Department for Culture, Media English Heritage Education and Training Board and Sports Government Equalities Office Equality and Human Rights Football Licensing Authority Commission Gambling Commission Home Office Animal (Scientific Procedures) UK Sport Inspectorate Department for Energy and Office of Gas and Electricity Criminal Records Bureau Climate Change Markets (NMGD) Independent Safeguarding DEFRA Animal Health Authority WA 251 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 252

Departments Sponsored Regulatory Bodies Schools: Foreign Languages

National Counter Terrorism Question Security Office Asked by Baroness Coussins Security Industry Authority Serious and Organised Crime To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the self- Agency evaluation form (SEF) used by schools to prepare UK Boarder Agency for an Ofsted inspection was revised in September Ministry of Justice Information Commissioner’s 2009 to delete the specific reference to languages Office and the Department for Children, Schools and Legal services Board Families benchmark for key stage 4, which had The above list includes only regulatory bodies and not all been introduced into the SEF in September 2007. public bodies. While all regulatory bodies are public bodies, not [HL1743] all public bodies exercise a regulatory function, that is, a function, under any enactment, of imposing requirements, restrictions and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, condition, and setting standards in relation to any activity, and of securing compliance, or enforcement. This is consistent with the Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness definition of a “regulatory function”in the Legislative and Regulatory Morgan of Drefelin): Ofsted’s self-evaluation form has Reform Act 2006. Thus, the list does not include public bodies been simplified to align with the new inspection evaluation that carry out mainly advisory, research and tribunal functions. A schedule, removing many of the detailed prompts. list of all public bodies is available on the Cabinet Office website However, inspections of schools will continue to cover at http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/Assets/PublicBodies2008_tcm6- the quality of teaching and learning of the curriculum 6429.pdf. and how it meets the needs of the pupils, which can Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours include coverage of languages. Ofsted also continue to carry out their rolling three- To ask Her Majesty’s Government what yearly subject reports into the teaching of each national arrangements exist for the accountability of regulatory curriculum subject, including modern foreign languages. bodies to Parliament. [HL1924] The next one of these for languages is due in the autumn term of 2010.

Lord Mandelson: Regulatory bodies created by statute Shipping: Lighthouse Authorities are answerable to Ministers for the exercise of their Questions statutory functions and, ultimately, to Parliament either indirectly through Ministers or directly through scrutiny Asked by Lord Berkeley by relevant committees of Parliament, such as the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what rules Public Account Committee, departmental select govern the General Lighthouse Authorities’ expenditure committees of the House of Commons, and cross-cutting on hospitality and entertainment. [HL1977] (thematic) committees. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what regard The National Audit Office can also audit the accounts (a) the officers and (b) the trustees of the General of regulatory bodies and report on their procedures Lighthouse Authorities are obliged to have to and practices. Bodies created by statute will be obliged (1) Cabinet Office guidelines on hospitality, and to lay accounts and reports before Parliament each (2) the Committee on Standards in Public Life’s year. Further, government departments, Ministers and guidance on hospitality; and how compliance with statutory regulators listed in the schedule to the them is monitored. [HL1978] Parliamentary Commissioners Act 1967 are answerable to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): in relation to complaints about their activities. The board members and officers of the General Executive agencies, which are not creatures of statute, Lighthouse Authorities are each required to comply will normally account to Ministers, who in turn will with a code of best practice, based on the Cabinet answer to Parliament for the actions of their agencies. Office’s Guidance on Codes of Practice for Board Members of Public Bodies. The codes include a duty Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours to comply with the Seven Principles of Public Life set out by the Committee on Standards in Public Life (the To ask Her Majesty’s Government which regulatory Nolan Committee). bodies have been subject to a value for money or The standards and rules governing use of public appropriation account inquiry by the National Audit money apply to the General Lighthouse Authorities, Office since 1997. [HL1925] whose annual accounts, which are consolidated into the General Lighthouse Fund Accounts, are subject to full National Audit Office inspection. Copies of the The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury General Lighthouse Fund Accounts are placed in the (Lord Myners): The National Audit Office (NAO) has Libraries of the House. prepared value for money reports on all of the regulatory Corporate governance is monitored through internal bodies in the public sector since 1997. It is also the and external audit reviews as well as by the Secretary financial auditor for most of the regulatory bodies’ of State’s nominated General Lighthouse Authority resource accounts. From 2010-11 the NAO will audit Non-Executive Directors at Trinity House and the the Financial Services Authority (FSA) accounts. Northern Lighthouse Board. WA 253 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 254

Asked by Lord Berkeley minimum 80 per cent relief on their business rates bills and local authorities can increase this relief if they To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the wish to 100 per cent. General Lighthouse Authorities are public authorities The five-yearly business rates revaluations make under the Freedom of Information Act 2000; and, sure each business pays its fair contribution and no if so, how many requests under the Act each Authority more by ensuring that the share of the national rates has (a) received, and (b) answered. [HL1979] bill paid by any one business reflects changes over time in the value of its property relative to others. The 2010 Lord Adonis: Trinity House and the Commissioners revaluation will not raise a single extra penny for of Irish Lights are not designated public authorities government. under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. The Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses is a public Asked by Lord Pendry authority under the Act and has received 44 requests To ask Her Majesty’s Government what for information, and answered 43. The request outstanding arrangements are in place to ensure that amateur is being processed and will be answered within the sports clubs are not adversely affected by the business 20-day statutory timeframe for a response. rates revaluation. [HL1824]

Lord McKenzie of Luton: Community amateur sports Shipping: Marine Guidance clubs are eligible for a minimum 80 per cent relief Question from their rates bills. Local authorities have discretion to increase the level of relief to those clubs to 100 per Asked by Lord Astor of Hever cent. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will The five-yearly business rates revaluations make publish the update to Marine Guidance Note 298. sure each business pays its fair contribution and no [HL1997] more by ensuring that the share of the national rates bill paid by any one business reflects changes over time in the value of its property relative to others. The 2010 The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): revaluation will not raise a single extra penny for We are in the final stages of revising Marine Guidance Government. Note 298 following a period of consultation and hope Over a million properties will see their business rate to publish a revised version in the spring. liabilities come down as a result of revaluation. The Government have put in place a £2 billion relief scheme to limit the impact on the minority with bill increases, Shipping: Piracy which in 2010-11 will ensure that no property occupied Question by amateur sports clubs or any other occupier will see its rates bill increase by more than 11 per cent as a Asked by Lord Astor of Hever result of the revaluation, with maximum increases To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many capped at just 3.5 per cent for small properties. That is acts of piracy have been committed against British on top of the wider support available to help ease vessels since the publication of Marine Guidance business pressures including discounted rate bills for Note 298. [HL1996] small businesses and deferring tax payments. Sport: Greyhound Racing The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): Question Since 1 October 2005 five British vessels have reported being subject to acts of piracy. Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many (a) licensed, and (b) independent, greyhound racing Sport: Clubs tracks operated in England in (a) 2000, (b) 2005, Question and (c) 2007; and how many operate now. [HL1794] Asked by Lord Pendry Lord Davies of Oldham: The information requested is not held centrally by the Department for Culture, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Media and Sport. they have made of how the business rates revaluation The noble Lord should write to the Chief Executive this year will affect amateur sports clubs. [HL1823] of the Greyhound Board of Great Britain (GBGB) requesting this information. The GBGB holds The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, responsibility for the governance, regulation and Department for Communities and Local Government & management of the sport of licensed greyhound racing Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of in England, Scotland and Wales. Luton): No assessment has been made of how the It can be contacted at: business rates revaluation will affect amateur sports Greyhound Board of Great Britain clubs because we do not hold data centrally on which Procter House hereditaments they occupy across the country. However, 1 Procter Street community amateur sports clubs are eligible for a WC1V 6DW WA 255 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 256

Sri Lanka Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: Our High Commission in Colombo has expressed our concerns over religious Questions freedoms to the Sri Lankan Minister of Human Rights Asked by Lord Patten and Disaster Management. In addition, last year the EU expressed its concern at a draft Bill relating to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what religious freedoms, which was awaiting further discussion representations they have made to the government in the Sri Lankan Parliament. We will continue to of Sri Lanka about social, ethnic and religious raise our concerns with the Sri Lankan Government harmony. [HL1862] about any legislation that reduces freedoms protected by international human rights law. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): We continue Stamp Duty to take every opportunity to urge the Government of Question Sri Lanka to make progress on national reconciliation, through taking forward the need for a fully inclusive Asked by Lord Newby political solution which addresses the underlying causes of the conflict. It remains our view that this is the only To ask Her Majesty’s Government what would way to achieve lasting peace in Sri Lanka. Reconciliation the change in revenue be from stamp duty land tax will depend in a large part on the Government of Sri if the rules for stamp duty land tax were to change Lanka protecting and promoting the rights of all Sri such that it was levied on a look-through basis for Lanka’s social, ethnic and religious communities. properties held by overseas legal structures but Following the recent presidential election in Sri Lanka ultimately held by a United Kingdom owner. my right honourable friend the Prime Minister wrote [HL1751] to President Rajapakse urging him to use his mandate to take forward genuine reconciliation. My right The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury honourable friend the Foreign Secretary also discussed (Lord Myners): The information is not available. It is this issue when he spoke to Foreign Minister Bogollagama not possible to provide an estimate of the charge in on 5 February 2010. revenue as no stamp duty land tax (SDLT) returns are Parliamentary elections will be the next opportunity available for transactions of this kind. for Sri Lankans of all communities to elect their representatives. They need to be able to make their choices freely and in an atmosphere untainted by Taxation: Avoidance violence. Questions Asked by Lord Patten Asked by Lord Newby To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the assessment of the rehabilitation of internally displaced estimated annual cost to the state of tax avoidance persons in Sri Lanka. [HL1863] schemes currently undertaken by (a) companies, and (b) individuals, which have been notified to HM Revenue and Customs under the Tax Avoidance Lord Brett: The latest UN figures of 15 January Disclosure Regime; and when will these loopholes 2010 estimate that approximately 187,000 internally be closed. [HL1752] displaced people (IDPs) have been released from the camps in Vavuniya to either their places of origin or to institutions and host families The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): The most recent estimates of tax avoidance While we welcome the returns, we are urging the are set out in the HMRC publications Measuring the Government of Sri Lanka to continue to release all Tax Gap 2009 and Protecting Tax Revenues 2009. IDPs and to allow full access for humanitarian agencies These estimate that total avoidance accounted for to all areas of return. This is critical to ensure families around 17.5 per cent of the UK net tax gap of £40 billion recover their lives and livelihoods. in the latest year for which figures are available. Separate We also urge the Government of Sri Lanka to allow estimates are not available for avoidance relating to ICRC access to the 12,000 suspected former combatants disclosed schemes undertaken by companies or individuals. who remain detained in numerous locations. The disclosure regime provides vital intelligence on The Department for International Development avoidance, which helps the Government to act swiftly (DfID) has contributed £12.5 million of humanitarian to close down schemes where necessary. Since 2004 the assistance to help those displaced and support their Government have legislated to close down over £12 billion returns in Sri Lanka. This funding is being provided to in avoidance opportunities using intelligence provided impartial humanitarian agencies. by the regime. At the 2009 Pre-Budget Report the Asked by Lord Patten Government announced consultation on a package of measures to further strengthen the disclosure rules, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they including the introduction of enhanced penalties, a have made or intend to make representations to the requirement for promoters to provide lists of their government of Sri Lanka concerning their proposed clients, and amendments and additions to the “hallmarks” religious anti-conversion legislation. [HL1864] which describe disclosable schemes. These will help WA 257 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 258 ensure that the disclosure regime keeps pace with the avoidance as well as deliberate evasion. This information market and continues to be effective in protecting tax is published in Measuring Tax Gaps 2009, which can revenues against artificial tax avoidance schemes. be found at http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/measurinq- tax-gaps.pdf and is available in the House of Commons Asked by Lord Newby Library. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Asked by Lord Newby estimated annual cost to the state of tax evasion by (a) individuals, and (b) companies. [HL1753] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much tax they anticipate recovering as a result of investigations for (a) tax evasion, and (b) tax avoidance Lord Myners: HMRC does not have an estimate of in (1) 2008–09, and (2) 2009–10. [HL1783] the cost of tax evasion broken down by individuals and companies. Lord Myners: The relevant table has been included At PBR 2009 HMRC published an estimate that on the following page, and is also available online at tax losses due to evasion account for approximately http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/autumn-report- 17.5 per cent of the overall tax gap this information is 2009.pdf. available in Protecting Tax Revenues 2009 which can be found at http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pbr2009/protect- The amounts attributable to tax evasion and tax tax-revenue-5450.pdf HMRC estimates that the overall avoidance are not identifiable separately. tax gap was £40 billion in 2007-08. This estimate Figures for 2009-10 will be published in HMRC’s includes losses from error, non-payment and artificial 2010 autumn performance report.

Table 4: Tackling non-compliance Results of work Tackling non-compliance (£m) Summary of Additional Liability (1) 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Local Compliance Corporation Tax 757.6 833.7 771.2 792.5 Enquiries Self-assessment 308.0 415.3 384.8 359.3 Business Enquiries Self -assessment Non- 268.1 667.4 220.3 238.4 business Inquiries(2) VAT Interventions 1280.1 1296.4 1845.1 2401.2(3) Excise Interventions 58.2 87.8 85.8 58.9 Employer Compliance 367.7 401.7 324.7 311.3 Construction Industry 0.0 56.0 57.2 65.6 Reviews International Trade 120.9 90.7 141.7 142.6 Interventions Capital Gains Tax 0.0 0.0 59.7 57.3 Inquiries(4) Hidden Economy 49.9 52.3 76.1 106.5 Broader Coverage 103.9 584.4 332.5 493.8 TEEL(5) - 32.0 Large Business Service Corporation Tax 2196.0 2728.0 3916.0 3712.1 Enquiries VAT Interventions 1142.0 828.0 770.0 837.3 Employer Compliance 62.2 104.9 110,5 83.7 Petroleum Revenue Tax 23.7 6.0 35,0 189.3 Excise Interventions 42.9 92.0 47.8 33.2 International Trade 87.9 156.0 46.9 32.0 Interventions Environmental 25.8 17.7 37.6 15.9 Interventions Specialist Civil Interventions 1166.40 1041.4 Investigations(6) SI Excise Yield(7) 243.6 Business International (8) Corporation Tax 64.7 91.3 152.1 115.2 Interventions Excise, Customs, Stamps Stamps Tax 6.3 10.9 4.6 25.0(9) and Money Charity Assets and Income Tax and 385.2 253.7 356.1 314.0 Residency Inheritance Tax CPTT(10) 306.5 373.0 WA 259 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 260

(1) 1 Direct taxes include interest and penalties. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The information requested (2) SA Non-business in 2006-07 included large and falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics exceptional yield resulting from decisions reached in High Court Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. cases. (3) LC VAT for 2008-09 includes assessments issued to unregisterable entities and a notional £40 for each new business Trinity House contact. These were not included in previous years. Question (4) Capital gains tax inquiry yield separately identified from 2007-08. In previous years it was included within SA non- Asked by Lord Berkeley business. (5) TEEL (targeted education, enabling and leverage) not To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much separately reported until 2008-09. Includes direct and indirect Trinity House spent on hospitality and entertainment taxes, in each of the last 10 years. [HL1976] (6) Figures for SI before 2007-08 are not available on a comparable basis as a result of a number of reorganisations and changes in the reporting of yield claimed in other parts of the The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): department. The Department for Transport does not hold this (7) New team established in 2008-09. information. Trinity House does not provide general hospitality or entertainment from the General Lighthouse (8) The team responsible for this yield transferred from CT and VAT into business international in April 2009. Fund other than that required as part of its normal business activities. Any hospitality or gifts offered by (9) Includes all stamp taxes, (that is, SD land tax, SD reserve tax and SD) Historic figures only show SDLT as no figures suppliers are recorded in a hospitality register if they available for the other two. exceed £50 or if the value is unknown. (10) Historic complex personal tax team (CPTT) yield included in the local compliance figures. Uganda Questions Taxation: Capital Gains Tax Asked by Lord Chidgey Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the government Asked by Lord Newby of Uganda over (a) the production-sharing agreement To ask Her Majesty’s Government what would between Tullow Oil and the government of Uganda be (a) the revenue implications, and (b) the additional over oil extraction in the Lake Albert basin, and (b) number of people who would pay tax, if the capital concerns raised by the Ugandan parliament about gains tax rules were widened to encompass all the transparency of that agreement. [HL2047] United Kingdom property, regardless of whether ownership is by a resident or a non-resident. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth [HL1750] Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): My honourable friend Ivan Lewis underlined the importance of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the transparency and fiscal discipline in the oil sector with estimated value of capital gains arising from properties President Museveni last year and urged Uganda to disposed of attributable to non-residents and non- sign up to credible transparency instruments such as domiciled individuals in the latest year for which the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative. Our figures are available. [HL1784] High Commissioner has also made similar representations to Ministers of Energy and Finance. We will continue to encourage Uganda to establish a comprehensive The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury and transparent framework (including the Production (Lord Myners): The information requested is not available, Sharing Agreements) to ensure the responsible exploitation as HM Revenue and Customs does not collect information and management of its oil resources. about the capital gains made by individuals who are not resident or not ordinarily resident in the UK, Asked by Lord Chidgey except where the assets are used in a trade that is carried out by a branch or agency in the UK. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the government of Uganda about Uganda’s Political Parties and Organisations Act which requires Ugandan political Teenage Pregnancies parties to disclose their sources of income to the Electoral Commission of Uganda. [HL2048] Question Asked by Baroness Walmsley Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: The Electoral Commission of Uganda is responsible for ensuring To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many political parties adhere to the financial reporting girls under 16 years old became pregnant in each requirements of the Political Parties and Organisations year since 2005; in how many cases the father was Act. We regularly discuss the issue of party finances also under 16 years old; and in how many cases the with the Electoral Commission, as does the Deepening pregnancy was terminated. [HL1916] Democracy Programme (part funded by the Department WA 261 Written Answers[22 FEBRUARY 2010] Written Answers WA 262 for International Development) with Ugandan political Lord West of Spithead: In accordance with the parties seeking financial assistance; any political party Immigration Rules (paragraph 320(3)), all visa applicants applying for assistance must fulfil the requirements of are required to produce a valid national passport or the Act. other document satisfactorily establishing their identity As a member of the local donor Partners for and nationality. These checks need to be carried out Democracy and Governance group, we have noted in by the Entry Clearance Officer prior to fixing a vignette an open letter to the media that political parties should sticker into the passport, when a visa is granted. If the make an annual statement of their financial assets and passport has to be handed back during the decision liabilities. phase, and the applicant then recalled when the decision is made, this will complicate the process and could cause delays, and inconvenience, to applicants. United Nations Population Fund Asked by Lord Crisp Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool make or will make special arrangements for academics To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they from Pakistan who collaborate on a regular basis will place in the Library of the House copies of the with British academics to have their visas to the annual reports of the United Nations Population United Kingdom expedited. [HL1854] Fund for each of the last two years, together with any other publications showing its budget and activities. [HL1842] Lord West of Spithead: Our general policy is to deal with visa applications strictly in turn. We believe that Lord Brett: I will arrange for the two most recent to give priority to applications in any particular category United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) annual would be unfair to other applicants. We will, however, reports, for 2007 and 2008, to be placed in the Library prioritise individual applications if necessary e.g. if of the House. there are urgent, compassionate circumstances. Current waiting times in Islamabad are three weeks; Vehicles: Snow Chains applicants are advised to take this into account before making an application. Question Asked by Lord Laird Asked by Lord Rogan To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many To ask Her Majesty’s Government under what dependants of students from countries outside the road conditions snow chains are permitted to be European Union granted visas to study in the United used by (a) cars, and (b) heavy goods vehicles. Kingdom have themselves been granted visas and [HL2016] admitted in the past five years. [HL1975] The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): Snow chains are permitted to be used by cars and heavy commercial vehicles when there is sufficient Lord West of Spithead: The latest available statistics snow or ice on the roads to prevent such chains relating to the number of dependants of students (1) damaging the road surface. granted visas (prior entry clearance) and (2) admitted to (given leave to enter) the United Kingdom, excluding EEA and Swiss nationals, in the five calendar years Visas from 2004 to 2008, are given in the table below. Data for 2009 are scheduled for publication in August 2010. Questions Statistics on passengers given leave to enter the Asked by Lord Marlesford United Kingdom by country of nationality and purpose To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether visas of journey are published annually in the series “Control for immigrants are granted in response to requests of Immigration: Statistics United Kingdom”. These from companies which are having difficulty in finding publications are available from the Library of the bus drivers; and, if so, how many such visas have House and from the Home Office Research, Development been granted in the last 12 months. [HL1691] and Statistics website at http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/ rds/immigration-asylum-stats.html. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Dependents of Students Office (Lord West of Spithead): Bus driving is not Year Visas Issued Admitted registered as a skill shortage under tier 2 of the points- based system. 2004 14,140 13,100 2005 16,045 13,200 Asked by Lord Crisp 2006 20,941 17,000 To ask Her Majesty’s Government why citizens 2007 19,294 17,100 of Pakistan are required to leave their passports 2008 24,203 20,300 with the Consulate whilst applying for a United Total 94,623 80,700 Kingdom visa, thus precluding their travel elsewhere. (1) The data for visas issued are based on management [HL1853] information. It is provisional and subject to change. WA 263 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 264

(2) It is not possible to determine how many of those Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia) admitted as dependents of students arrived with prior entry are required to register on the Workers Registration clearance. Scheme. The percentage of European Union migrants registered on the Workers Registration Scheme and Worker Registration Scheme known to be resident in the United Kingdom is not centrally recorded. Data on the numbers of those Question registered on the Workers Registration Scheme is published on the local government website (www.lga.gov.uk) on Asked by Lord Foulkes of Cumnock the current following page www.lga.gov.uk/lga/core/ To ask Her Majesty’s Government what percentage page.do?pageId=1095225. Officers within the House of European Union migrants known to be resident Library have direct access to the electronic documents in the United Kingdom have registered on the via the local government analysis and research website. Workers’ Registration Scheme, broken down by Information about the requirement for A8 nationals region; and how the Government plan to advertise to register is published on the UK Border Agency and promote this scheme to both European Union website at: migrants and employers. [HL1758] http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizens/ workerregistrationscheme/. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home This information is provided for both employers Office (Lord West of Spithead): Only nationals of A8 and A8 nationals. The application form and guidance countries (Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, notes are also available to download. Monday 22 February 2010

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Bail Accommodation and Support Service ...... 63 EU: Transport Council ...... 65

Council for Financial Stability...... 63 Immigration...... 66

Crown Prosecutors’ Code ...... 64 Passports ...... 67

EU: European Council ...... 64 Taxation: Information Exchange Agreements...... 68

Monday 22 February 2010

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan ...... 169 Department for International Development: Overseas Projects...... 210 Afghanistan: Mining...... 169 Development Aid...... 210 Africa: Armed Conflict...... 170 Education: Overseas Students...... 210 Alcohol...... 170 Elections: Burundi and Rwanda...... 211 Armed Forces: Homecoming ...... 170 Elections: Rwanda ...... 211 Armed Forces: Suppliers...... 171 Embryology ...... 212 Asylum Seekers...... 171 Energy: Generation Projects ...... 216 Asylum Seekers: Deportation ...... 172 EU: Non-compliance...... 218 Banking Act 2009 ...... 172 Export Credits Guarantee Department...... 218 Banking: Iceland...... 173 Finance: Alternative Investment Market...... 220 Benefits: Non-British Citizens...... 175 Financial Institutions: Auditors...... 220

Biometric Data ...... 175 Financial Institutions: Environmentally Friendly ...... 222

British Citizenship ...... 176 Gaza ...... 222

Buying Solutions...... 178 Government Departments: Bonuses ...... 223

CCTV ...... 179 Government Departments: Cars ...... 224

China...... 180 Government Departments: Consultancy Services ...... 225

Climate Change ...... 180 Government Departments: Muslim Organisations...... 227

Communities: Faith Forums ...... 181 Government: Law Officers...... 227

Community Cohesion...... 207 Hillsborough Castle Agreement...... 228

Crime: Universal Jurisdiction ...... 208 Housing Benefit...... 228

Crime: Violence ...... 208 Human Rights ...... 229

Cycling...... 209 Immigration...... 229

Cyprus: Property ...... 209 Immigration: Deportation ...... 230

Deforestation: Compensation ...... 209 Immigration: Yarl’s Wood ...... 231 Col. No. Col. No. Infrastructure Planning (Environmental Impact Prisoners: Education...... 246 Assessment) Regulations 2009 ...... 231 Prisoners: Education...... 247 International Planned Parenthood Federation...... 232 Prisons: Costs ...... 248 Israel and Palestine ...... 233 Railways: Timetables ...... 248 Israel: Imports and Exports ...... 233 Regulatory Bodies...... 249 Justice: Arrest Warrants...... 233 Schools: Foreign Languages...... 252 Korea...... 234 Shipping: Lighthouse Authorities ...... 252 Marine Environment: British Indian Ocean Territory...... 234 Shipping: Marine Guidance...... 253 National Identity Register...... 235 Shipping: Piracy...... 253 NHS: Primary Care Trusts...... 237 Sport: Clubs...... 253 North Korea: Human Rights...... 237 Sport: Greyhound Racing...... 254 Northern Ireland: Human Rights Commission...... 239 Sri Lanka...... 255 Northern Ireland Office: Freedom of Information Act 2000 ...... 238 Stamp Duty ...... 256

Northern Ireland: Peter Robinson ...... 239 Taxation: Avoidance ...... 256

Official Secrets Act ...... 240 Taxation: Capital Gains Tax ...... 259

Older People ...... 240 Teenage Pregnancies ...... 259

Passports ...... 241 Trinity House...... 260

Patents: Single European Patent ...... 242 Uganda...... 260

Police: Northern Ireland ...... 242 United Nations Population Fund ...... 261

Ports: Business Rates ...... 243 Vehicles: Snow Chains ...... 261

Poverty...... 244 Visas ...... 261

Prime Minister’s Office: Pay Gaps ...... 245 Worker Registration Scheme...... 263 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL4]...... 223 [HL1647] ...... 248

[HL1329] ...... 239 [HL1670] ...... 220

[HL1330] ...... 239 [HL1671] ...... 220

[HL1473] ...... 241 [HL1672] ...... 220

[HL1496] ...... 235 [HL1673] ...... 222

[HL1497] ...... 235 [HL1674] ...... 222

[HL1498] ...... 235 [HL1691] ...... 261

[HL1499] ...... 235 [HL1698] ...... 235

[HL1500] ...... 235 [HL1699] ...... 235

[HL1576] ...... 227 [HL1700] ...... 236

[HL1640] ...... 176 [HL1701] ...... 236

[HL1641] ...... 177 [HL1702] ...... 236

[HL1642] ...... 177 [HL1703] ...... 236 Col. No. Col. No. [HL1708] ...... 225 [HL1807] ...... 212

[HL1709] ...... 226 [HL1808] ...... 213

[HL1710] ...... 226 [HL1809] ...... 213

[HL1713] ...... 236 [HL1810] ...... 179

[HL1714] ...... 236 [HL1811] ...... 179

[HL1715] ...... 236 [HL1816] ...... 233

[HL1716] ...... 236 [HL1820] ...... 222

[HL1717] ...... 236 [HL1823] ...... 253

[HL1718] ...... 237 [HL1824] ...... 254

[HL1723] ...... 172 [HL1842] ...... 261

[HL1726] ...... 229 [HL1843] ...... 232

[HL1727] ...... 229 [HL1848] ...... 231

[HL1728] ...... 172 [HL1849] ...... 231

[HL1729] ...... 220 [HL1850] ...... 232

[HL1730] ...... 221 [HL1853] ...... 261

[HL1731] ...... 221 [HL1854] ...... 262

[HL1732] ...... 221 [HL1855] ...... 230

[HL1736] ...... 227 [HL1856] ...... 208

[HL1737] ...... 227 [HL1857] ...... 171

[HL1738] ...... 228 [HL1862] ...... 255

[HL1741] ...... 210 [HL1863] ...... 255

[HL1743] ...... 252 [HL1864] ...... 255

[HL1750] ...... 259 [HL1867] ...... 218

[HL1751] ...... 256 [HL1869] ...... 209

[HL1752] ...... 256 [HL1871] ...... 230

[HL1753] ...... 257 [HL1874] ...... 245

[HL1758] ...... 263 [HL1875] ...... 241

[HL1760] ...... 242 [HL1876] ...... 180

[HL1762] ...... 210 [HL1877] ...... 237

[HL1780] ...... 175 [HL1878] ...... 233

[HL1783] ...... 258 [HL1879] ...... 209

[HL1784] ...... 259 [HL1881] ...... 180

[HL1789] ...... 170 [HL1882] ...... 218

[HL1790] ...... 169 [HL1883] ...... 219

[HL1794] ...... 254 [HL1884] ...... 219

[HL1804] ...... 212 [HL1885] ...... 219

[HL1805] ...... 212 [HL1887] ...... 216

[HL1806] ...... 212 [HL1891] ...... 242 Col. No. Col. No. [HL1894] ...... 209 [HL1963] ...... 246

[HL1900] ...... 173 [HL1964] ...... 246

[HL1901] ...... 173 [HL1969] ...... 207

[HL1910] ...... 181 [HL1971] ...... 237

[HL1911] ...... 201 [HL1973] ...... 172

[HL1912] ...... 207 [HL1974] ...... 229

[HL1913] ...... 207 [HL1975] ...... 262

[HL1914] ...... 176 [HL1976] ...... 260

[HL1916] ...... 259 [HL1977] ...... 252

[HL1918] ...... 171 [HL1978] ...... 252

[HL1920] ...... 228 [HL1979] ...... 253

[HL1923] ...... 249 [HL1980] ...... 170

[HL1924] ...... 251 [HL1981] ...... 170

[HL1925] ...... 251 [HL1988] ...... 208

[HL1927] ...... 224 [HL1996] ...... 253

[HL1928] ...... 240 [HL1997] ...... 253

[HL1932] ...... 238 [HL2000] ...... 169

[HL1934] ...... 243 [HL2007] ...... 214

[HL1935] ...... 243 [HL2008] ...... 214

[HL1938] ...... 244 [HL2010] ...... 231

[HL1940] ...... 233 [HL2016] ...... 261

[HL1944] ...... 170 [HL2040] ...... 240

[HL1945] ...... 210 [HL2047] ...... 260

[HL1946] ...... 244 [HL2048] ...... 260

[HL1947] ...... 234 [HL2050] ...... 211

[HL1948] ...... 214 [HL2051] ...... 211

[HL1949] ...... 240 [HL2055] ...... 174

[HL1951] ...... 228 [HL2058] ...... 215

[HL1953] ...... 228 [HL2059] ...... 215

[HL1954] ...... 234 [HL2060] ...... 215

[HL1958] ...... 169 [HL2075] ...... 232

[HL1961] ...... 247 [HL2077] ...... 248

[HL1962] ...... 246 [HL2078] ...... 178 Volume 717 Monday No. 43 22 February 2010

CONTENTS

Monday 22 February 2010 Questions Afghanistan: Improvised Explosive Devices...... 807 Employment: Older People...... 809 Women: Non-executive Directors ...... 812 Extremism...... 814 Business of the House Motion to refer to Grand Committee ...... 817 Rail Vehicle Accessibility (London Underground Metropolitan Line S8 Vehicles) Exemption Order 2010 Motion to Approve ...... 817 Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Bill [HL] Report...... 817 Personal Care at Home Bill Committee ...... 817 Passports: Mahmoud al-Mabhouh Statement...... 827 Personal Care at Home Bill Committee (Continued) ...... 833 Prisons: Early Release Statement...... 861 Personal Care at Home Bill Committee (Continued) ...... 872 CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme Order 2010 Motion to Approve...... 877 Personal Care at Home Bill Committee (Continued) ...... 887 Grand Committee Media: Local and Regional Newspapers...... GC 193 Prisons: Howard League Commission ...... GC 202 Iran: Human Rights...... GC 216 Public Services: Co-location Questions for Short Debate...... GC 229 Written Statements...... WS 63 Written Answers...... WA 169