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Vol. 756 Wednesday No. 48 29 October 2014 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT ORDER OF BUSINESS Introduction: Lord Goddard of Stockport...................................................................1191 Questions Police and Crime Commissioners...............................................................................1191 Child Abuse: Police Investigations .............................................................................1193 Gaza: Reconstruction ..................................................................................................1196 European Arrest Warrant ...........................................................................................1198 Scotland: Devolution Motion to Take Note ..................................................................................................1201 Grand Committee Consumer Rights Bill Committee (6th Day)............................................................................................GC 441 Written Statements ....................................................................................................WS 115 Written Answers .........................................................................................................WA 153 £4·00 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. 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The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative Con Ind Conservative Independent DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Lab Labour Lab Ind Labour Independent LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2014, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1191 Introduction: Lord Goddard of Stockport[29 OCTOBER 2014] Police and Crime Commissioners 1192 and crime commissioners, which is the best system of House of Lords police governance in England and Wales that could Wednesday, 29 October 2014. have been invented, except for anything else that you could have thought of? 3pm Lord Bates: I respect the noble Lord’s great experience Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Lichfield. in this area, but we need to remember what the system was before. The previous Government commissioned Introduction: Lord Goddard of Stockport an HMIC report—entitled, appropriately for the time, Police Governance in Austerity—which found that only 3.09 pm four of the 22 police authorities inspected were judged to have performed well in two of their primary functions: David Goddard, Esquire, having been created Baron setting a strategic direction and ensuring value for Goddard of Stockport, of Stockport in the County of money. There has been a change there, and that is to Greater Manchester, was introduced and took the oath, be welcomed. supported by Lord McNally and Lord Lee of Trafford, and signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of Lord Paddick (LD): My Lords, one of the two Conduct. objectives that the Government set for police and crime commissioners was to save money. In addition Police and Crime Commissioners to the vast expense of many of these police and crime commissioners appointing deputies, we have also had Question to have two by-elections—once, tragically, because of 3.13 pm a death and once because of resignation—which have cost between £1 million and £3 million. How much Asked by Lord Hoyle money has the change actually saved? To ask Her Majesty’s Government what standards Lord Bates: Police budgets overall are reducing, and guidelines are given to Police and Crime which is not something that we chose to do but was Commissioners upon taking office. the situation that we were faced with when this Government came into office. It should be said that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home the police are also overseeing one of the largest falls in Office (Lord Bates) (Con): My Lords, the Police Reform crime that we have ever had in recent years. That is to and Social Responsibility Act 2011 provides the broad be welcomed. The average salary of a police and crime structure within which police and crime commissioners commissioner is about half that of a chief constable. must operate. The legislation is necessarily permissive In many areas, people will regard them as delivering to allow PCCs to innovate and deliver policing more value for money. If people feel that they are failing in effectively than the unelected police authorities that their responsibilities, they can vote them out, which they replaced. they could not do before. Lord Hoyle (Lab): I thank the Minister for that Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab): My Lords, considered but short reply. Already between 2012 and the noble Lord mentioned the number of people who 2014, these police and crime commissioners have cost voted for police and crime commissioners when the us £9,636,264. That is just in salary and expenses and elections were originally held. Will he remind the does not take into account the people who are directly House what percentage that represents of the people employed by them. The public do not understand why who could have voted? police and crime commissioners were appointed, what they are supposed to do and what they have achieved, Lord Bates: Yes, it was 15% of those who could but they do know that they cannot be sacked. Does have voted. This was a new role introduced to increase the Minister agree with the Deputy Prime Minister accountability, and 15% is a sight more than were that this is a failed experiment and that they should be present in the smoke-filled rooms to elect the chairmen scrapped? of the police authorities which existed before. Lord Bates: I hear what the noble Lord says, but of The Earl of Listowel (CB): My Lords, what advice course 5.49 million people voted to put those people in is given to PCCs on the value of high-quality youth place. I would argue that they are much more accountable services and well supported mentoring and peer mentoring than the police authorities and the local government services? What evidence can the Minister cite of consistent systems that existed before. As for the comments of investment by PCCs in that vital area to prevent the Deputy Prime Minister, of course this was a children and young people entering crime? coalition agreement that was supported through this House, but the Liberal Democrats are entirely entitled Lord Bates: The noble Earl is right to raise the to change their mind whenever they choose. concern. PCCs can be responsive in local areas in a way that did not exist before. For example, in Lord Blair of Boughton (CB): My Lords, it is said Northamptonshire, Adam Simmonds has introduced that Churchill described democracy as the worst system a new victim witness service. In Cumbria, Richard of government except for everything else that had Rhodes has introduced an office of victim services. been tried. Does the Minister agree that the coalition Those are exactly the type of changes which are responsive has achieved the converse by the introduction of police to local needs that the commissioners are now delivering. 1193 Police and Crime Commissioners[LORDS] Child Abuse: Police Investigations 1194 Earl Attlee (Con): My Lords, is the Minister aware National Crime Agency is currently leading an that I was unable to name any member of a police unprecedented operation against online child abusers authority who was not a Member of your Lordships’ in the UK. In the past 12 months it has safeguarded or House? protected more than 1,000 children, and 706 arrests have been made by forces. Lord Bates: My noble friend makes a fine point. Police and crime commissioners, through the press, through discussion and through the elections, are much Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, in more widely known and recognised. Therefore, people July 2012, the Canadian police passed to CEOP—now will increasingly