COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
GAME AND FISHERIES COMMITTEE HEARING
EAST ALLEN TOWNSHIP MUNICIPAL BUILDING CONFERENCE ROOM 5344 NOR-BATH BOULEVARD NORTHAMPTON, PENNSYLVANIA
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 15, 2011 6:30 P.M.
PRESENTATION ON SUNDAY HUNTING
BEFORE:
HONORABLE JOHN R. EVANS, MAJORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE JOE EMRICK HONORABLE MARCIA M. HAHN HONORABLE DOYLE HEFFLEY HONORABLE MICHAEL PEIFER HONORABLE EDWARD G. STABACK, MINORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE H. WILLIAM DeWEESE HONORABLE DEBERAH KULA
ALSO IN ATTENDANCE:
HONORABLE JULIE HARHART
JEAN M. DAVIS, REPORTER NOTARY PUBLIC
————————— JEAN DAVIS REPORTING 7786 Hanoverdale Drive • Harrisburg, PA 17112 Phone (717)503-6568 • Fax (717)566-7760 1 I N D E X
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2 1 P R O C E E D I N G S
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3 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN EVANS: Welcome to this hearing
4 of the PA House of Representatives Game and Fisheries
5 Committee.
6 This is our second in a series of public hearings
7 on the topic of Sunday hunting in PA. We would like to
8 inform everyone that we are being recorded and we are being
9 streamed live on the web through various websites of the
10 members and of the caucus. So we are being televised at
11 this meeting.
12 I would like to certainly thank -- I'm Rep. John
13 Evans, the Chairman of the committee. My co-chairman is
14 Rep. Ed Staback. And our host of this event is Rep. Marcia
15 Hahn. This is her legislative district.
16 And at this time, I would like to recognize Rep.
17 Hahn for some welcoming comments.
18 REP. HAHN: Thank you, Chairman.
19 Good afternoon. And I want to thank everyone for
20 coming out tonight and welcome everyone to my legislative
21 district. And I want to thank Chairmen Evans and Staback
22 for having this here and for the other members of the
23 committee to come out.
24 I'm finding in my district that when I did a
25 survey on-line and e-mails, letters, 62 percent of the
3 1 residents in my district are against Sunday hunting. So
2 this is a chance for the members to hear from different
3 organizations, get the views. This is an informational
4 meeting for us to learn both sides and find out a little
5 bit more about the subject.
6 So, again, I want to thank you. And I'll turn it
7 back over to Chairman Evans.
8 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Thank you very much.
9 At this time, I would like to have the members
10 introduce themselves starting from my right to the left.
11 REP. PEIFER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 My name is Mike Peifer. I represent the 139th
13 District, which includes portions of Wayne, Pike, and
14 Monroe Counties.
15 REP. EMRICK: I'm Rep. Joe Emrick. I serve the
16 137th just to the east of here and all of Northampton
17 County.
18 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: My name is Ed
19 Staback. I represent the 115th District, which is the
20 mid-valley and upper portion of Lackawanna County and
21 Southern Wayne County.
22 REP. KULA: Good evening. I'm Rep. Deberah Kula
23 from Fayette and Westmoreland Counties, the 52nd District.
24 REP. HEFFLEY: I'm Rep. Doyle Heffley from the
25 122nd District, Carbon County, which is just north of
4 1 Northampton County.
2 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Okay. I would like
3 to thank all the members for traveling here tonight and
4 being a part of this hearing.
5 We do have an ambitious agenda this evening. And
6 we are going to strive to keep to the time limits on the
7 testifiers. And also for the question-and-answer period,
8 we'd like to try to stick to the schedule as much as
9 possible because we do have, again, quite an ambitious
10 agenda tonight.
11 I would like to first ask if Rep. Staback has any
12 opening comments.
13 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: No. That's fine. Go
14 ahead.
15 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Rep. Harhart has
16 also joined us, Rep. Julie Harhart. And we may have some
17 members coming in to join us as the hearing is underway.
18 But welcome, Rep. Harhart.
19 REP. HARHART: Thank you.
20 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Our first testifier
21 is Mr. Robert Krause, Master, Star Grange, Northampton, PA,
22 speaking on behalf of the PA State Grange.
23 Robert.
24 MR. KRAUSE: Where do you want me to sit, here?
25 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: That's fine.
5 1 MR. KRAUSE: Okay.
2 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Thank you, sir. And
3 begin whenever you're ready.
4 MR. KRAUSE: Okay. Good afternoon, Chairmen
5 Evans and Staback. Thank you for the opportunity to speak
6 tonight. My name is Robert Krause. I'm a resident of
7 Nazareth for the past 40 years and president of Star Grange
8 993 in Northampton County.
9 I'm a father, a grandfather, a past gun club
10 member, a current NRA member, and hold a conceal to carry
11 permit. My son and grandson are avid hunters and
12 fishermen. I own a cemetery service and metered concrete
13 delivery company.
14 Tonight I'm representing the PA State Grange, a
15 subsidiary of the National Grange, the oldest family farm
16 organization in the United States. About 10,000 members
17 belong to the PA State Grange and 250 local chapters around
18 the state in rural and suburban areas.
19 We are a grassroots organization, meaning the
20 policy I am supporting tonight was developed at a local
21 grange and adopted by delegates from all over the state at
22 our annual state convention.
23 The granges had a longstanding policy in
24 opposition to expanding hunting to Sundays. Many of our
25 members are farmers who do allow non-family members to hunt
6 1 various game on their property. These farm families
2 appreciate a day of rest and relaxation on Sundays and do
3 not want to be disturbed by hunters on their property or
4 neighboring lands.
5 However, our main objective to Sunday hunting is
6 the disturbance, even danger, it would pose to hikers,
7 backpackers, bird watchers, and anyone else using the
8 forests of PA on a Sunday.
9 These groups of people, 37 percent of the
10 population, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife
11 Service, now enjoy freedom to wander the forests of PA on
12 Sundays without fear of running into hunters.
13 As Gary Blockus stated in the Morning Call on
14 July 5th, taking a leisurely Sunday stream-side picnic at a
15 favorite spot on your own land could become life
16 threatening if it's too close to State game lands and
17 hunting is allowed on a Sunday.
18 It is true that landowners can post their
19 property for no Sunday hunting. But who will enforce this?
20 Certainly, there are not enough wildlife conservation
21 officers to cover the entire state. I'm sure that they are
22 busy with major violations to be patrolling for hunters on
23 posted private property.
24 If a violator is caught, will the penalty be
25 large enough to be a real deterrent? Rather than just
7 1 posting for no Sunday hunting, it may be easier just to
2 post no hunting at all. I realize that the majority of
3 hunters do obey signs, but there are always a couple of bad
4 actors in any group.
5 Many of our Grange members are hunters. But also
6 many just want to enjoy nature on a Sunday by spending time
7 in the public or private forests of PA without fear of
8 being accidentally shot.
9 Hunters have six days a week to enjoy their
10 pursuit of game. We request one day for others to enjoy
11 their pastime without disturbance.
12 Thank you for the opportunity to speak on behalf
13 of the PA State Grange tonight.
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Thank you very much,
15 Mr. Krause.
16 (Applause.)
17 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Please remain
18 seated. We'd like to have some questions from the members.
19 MR. KRAUSE: Sure.
20 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: First of all, I
21 would like to introduce Rep. Bill DeWeese, who has joined
22 us all the way from Greene County across the state to be
23 here at the hearing tonight.
24 We do have some questions, I believe, from some
25 of the members. I would like to start with just a couple
8 1 of quick ones.
2 MR. KRAUSE: Sure.
3 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Do you have,
4 Mr. Krause, any statistics? You refer to the danger to
5 hikers. Currently, hikers do participate in their
6 activities six days a week beyond Sunday.
7 MR. KRAUSE: Sure.
8 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Is there any
9 statistical information as far as the injuries suffered by
10 hikers by hunting interests or shooting sports on the other
11 six days of the week?
12 MR. KRAUSE: I really don't have any statistics
13 on that in that respect, no. I know from my own -- in my
14 own situation, in my own business, we take care of
15 cemeteries that are in Northampton and Bushkill Townships
16 that are along the mountain.
17 And during hunting season, when you hear shots,
18 you always wonder, am I at the wrong spot at the wrong
19 time? And nothing has ever happened. And I can't say that
20 it ever will. But it is a concern.
21 And I'm sure that people that would be out there
22 on a Sunday would be just as concerned. I mean, if I'm out
23 on a Sunday, I don't want to have to wear an orange hat or
24 any kind of a warning device if I want to be out in the
25 woods and not hunting.
9 1 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: The information we
2 received on the committee is of all the hunters in the
3 field last year, there were close to a million hunters in
4 PA. We had two fatalities. And one of those was
5 self-inflicted.
6 Am I right, Mr. Chairman? Is that your
7 information as well?
8 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Yes.
9 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: So as of the
10 statistics that we have been given on the committee and
11 statistically, it is probably far more dangerous to be
12 horseback riding than it is to be hunting.
13 MR. KRAUSE: Or riding a motorcycle.
14 (Applause.)
15 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: I'll open it up now
16 to Chairman Staback. Do you have some questions?
17 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Yes.
18 In the past, the PA Farm Bureau -- and I believe
19 they're here tonight and I'll discuss this further with
20 them. But they have indicated that they would urge their
21 members to shut down their land to all public hunting if
22 Sunday hunting was ever adopted in the Commonwealth.
23 Now, to be clear for myself and maybe some of my
24 colleagues that are with us tonight, does the Grange share
25 that idea? And if this became a law, would the Grange urge
10 1 their members to shut their lands down to not only Sunday
2 hunting but all hunting, period?
3 MR. KRAUSE: I think that any Grange member that
4 was a farmer that owned land would probably be asked to do
5 that, yes.
6 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Would be asked to do
7 that?
8 MR. KRAUSE: You can't order anybody to do it.
9 You can only ask them or request them.
10 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Okay. Now, certainly
11 if this became law, we are not in a position, nor is
12 anyone, to tell anybody how they should use their own
13 private property. So we certainly are not going to dictate
14 to a farmer that he has to open his land to Sunday hunting.
15 But you're right, all he has to do to protect his
16 interest is post his land, no Sunday hunting.
17 MR. KRAUSE: You're right.
18 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: That's all he has to
19 do.
20 I don't believe that you are going to realize any
21 more disturbance from trespassers on Sunday than you would
22 during a normal hunting season. Much of the concerns that
23 you alluded to were concerns of the Farm Bureau and the
24 farm community in the state of New York.
25 As a matter of fact, there were concerns in all
11 1 33 states in the United States today that have authorized
2 Sunday hunting across the board. All of them had the same
3 concerns. But these states went ahead and they adopted the
4 program, some piecemeal. They did it in certain parts of
5 their state. It wasn't across the board, you know, at any
6 one time.
7 And guess what you found out? All of their
8 concerns were totally unfounded. Nobody was knocking on
9 their doors at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning looking for
10 information to go hunting, right?
11 There was no more or less activity with
12 trespassers than they had experienced before. Nobody was
13 traipsing around their woods that shouldn't have been
14 there. Hunters asked permission. And if they didn't get
15 it, they left.
16 But they didn't ask that permission on the very
17 day that they wanted to hunt. They normally would stop
18 days and weeks before a scheduled hunt to find out if they
19 could go. And if they were told no, there was no Sunday
20 hunting, you didn't see them again. They were gone.
21 So I don't understand why you believe that the
22 Grange would urge their members to shut down their lands
23 totally to all hunting if this was adopted in some way.
24 MR. KRAUSE: Well, I can't say that they all
25 would. I'm just saying that that's what the Grange's
12 1 position is. That's up to the individual landowner.
2 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Tell me, to the best
3 of your knowledge, is there any number of Grange members
4 that are a part of any farm co-op programs within the Game
5 Commission?
6 MR. KRAUSE: Oh, I don't know that.
7 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Okay.
8 MR. KRAUSE: I don't know that.
9 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Just a word of
10 warning, if you will. And I don't know how many members
11 that are a part -- how many farm members that are a part of
12 farm co-op programs are aware of this.
13 If you shut your land down to public hunting,
14 those programs that you're a part of now stop. You're no
15 longer a part of a farm co-op program. And you're no
16 longer entitled to any of those perks that come with being
17 a member of the farm co-op program. And you will not be
18 eligible for the Red Tag programs that you're eligible for
19 now once you drop out or once you're put out of that kind
20 of a program.
21 Were you aware of that? Do you think any of your
22 members are aware of that?
23 MR. KRAUSE: I really don't know.
24 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Then if you're
25 outside of the program, you'd have to be outside of that
13 1 program for a minimum of two years, two years before you
2 could gain eligibility to get back into a program. You
3 could get back into the program, but it would take two
4 years before you would be eligible again for the Red Tag
5 program.
6 Now, do you have any idea what would happen to
7 your land with crop damage over a two-year period if there
8 was no hunting going on at all? How would you control
9 that?
10 I mean, these are just things that I wonder if
11 the farm community is thinking about when they talk about
12 shutting down their lands to all hunting, not just Sunday
13 hunting.
14 I don't have a problem with anyone shutting their
15 land down on a Sunday. But it doesn't make any sense to me
16 why they would want to shut down their land totally to all
17 hunting.
18 MR. KRAUSE: Well, I can't say that they would.
19 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: But you just said
20 that the Grange would urge the members to do that.
21 MR. KRAUSE: The Grange would urge its members
22 probably to do that.
23 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Why would they want
24 to do that, though?
25 MR. KRAUSE: Because we don't feel that it's in
14 1 the best interest -- you have six days a week to hunt. Why
2 do you have to hunt on a Sunday?
3 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: You mentioned giving
4 backpackers and hikers an opportunity to go into the woods
5 and not worry about getting shot.
6 MR. KRAUSE: Sure.
7 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Chairman Evans made a
8 point about the number of people that were hurt that way.
9 MR. KRAUSE: I heard his comment.
10 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: We have 12 months in
11 a calendar year.
12 MR. KRAUSE: You're right.
13 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Our hunting season
14 begins the 1st of October for the most part and ends the
15 middle of February. That means those people that want to
16 utilize the game lands and State forest lands when there's
17 no hunting involved have March, April, May, June, July,
18 August, and September. They have more time to spend in the
19 woods than we do as hunters.
20 Why would you want to take Sunday away?
21 MR. KRAUSE: It's been away. Why do you want to
22 add it?
23 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Okay. I can probably
24 think of a number of reasons that we can go into why we
25 think Sunday hunting would be a benefit to the
15 1 Commonwealth.
2 Number 1 -- I'm taking too much time, aren't I?
3 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: It's okay.
4 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Okay.
5 MR. KRAUSE: Yeah. Grill somebody else.
6 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: No. I'm taking too
7 much time.
8 But let me tell you, I read articles -- and these
9 are confirmed -- that if we continue to lose hunters in
10 this state, indeed across the entire country, in the
11 fashion that we are today, by the year 2040, 2045, you will
12 not recognize hunting the way it is today.
13 The only people that will have an opportunity to
14 go will be people that own their own land or that belong to
15 private gun clubs or shooting preserves. That's it. There
16 will be no hunting the way we understand it today because
17 we are simply losing our hunter population.
18 Now, one way to control that is to get the young
19 people in our Commonwealth back involved in sport hunting.
20 MR. KRAUSE: I agree.
21 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Right. Right.
22 Now, today there are just too many things that
23 the young people have to do on Saturday, which is their
24 only day during the school year when hunting is available
25 to them: soccer games, football games, baseball games, and
16 1 the like. And they're having to make a choice.
2 We want to help that a little bit. We really
3 want to help that a little bit. If we allow Sunday
4 hunting, a good number, a good number, of those young
5 people would get back into the sport again.
6 MR. KRAUSE: Let me ask you a question. Would
7 that be before church or after church?
8 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: That would be up to
9 them.
10 MR. KRAUSE: Okay.
11 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Wait a minute. I go
12 to church on Saturday, not Sunday.
13 MR. KRAUSE: Okay. Good for you.
14 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: And I still go
15 hunting on Saturday.
16 MR. KRAUSE: Okay. Well, then they can go to
17 church and go hunting in the afternoon.
18 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Wait. You're
19 religious persuasion is your private business.
20 MR. KRAUSE: I agree.
21 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: You know, whether you
22 go to church or not is up to you and when you go is up to
23 you.
24 MR. KRAUSE: Absolutely.
25 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: I don't think that
17 1 should play a part in all this. This shouldn't be a part
2 of all of this, at least in my view.
3 MR. KRAUSE: Okay.
4 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: But in any event --
5 and then the fathers of those children that have to work
6 six and a half days a week have told me time and time
7 again, we have to drop out of the sport simply because of
8 the fact that we work half-days on Saturday. It doesn't
9 pay us to get involved in the sport for just a couple of
10 hours on a Saturday. Give me a full day on Sunday and I
11 will get back into it again and so will my sons.
12 They're a couple of reasons why Sunday hunting, I
13 think, should become a reality in the Commonwealth.
14 MR. KRAUSE: Okay.
15 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: I'm going to let it
16 go at that, Mr. Chairman.
17 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Thank you, Chairman
18 Staback.
19 We have a question from Rep. Kula.
20 REP. KULA: Just very briefly.
21 MR. KRAUSE: Thank you.
22 REP. KULA: And this is just something as you
23 were talking and I don't know if you know the answer.
24 Throughout the Commonwealth, how many counties
25 are there active Grange members? Do you know? I mean, is
18 1 it all 67?
2 MR. KRAUSE: About 60 of them.
3 REP. KULA: Okay. And so you're talking about
4 how many people?
5 MR. KRAUSE: How many people?
6 REP. KULA: Yes.
7 MR. KRAUSE: Total?
8 REP. KULA: Yes. How many would you say?
9 MR. KRAUSE: There are about 10,000 people
10 throughout the state that are Grange members.
11 REP. KULA: Okay. And in about 60 counties,
12 you're saying?
13 MR. KRAUSE: Approximately. Probably
14 Philadelphia County is not one of the counties and
15 Allegheny may be. I don't know.
16 REP. KULA: Okay. I was just trying to
17 understand, you know, the numbers that are talked about in
18 your statements that you made here.
19 MR. KRAUSE: The high population counties
20 wouldn't have near as many.
21 REP. KULA: Okay. Thank you very much.
22 MR. KRAUSE: You're welcome.
23 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Mr. Krause, thank
24 you very much for your testimony this evening. We
25 appreciate it very much.
19 1 MR. KRAUSE: Thank you.
2 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Next will be Ray
3 Mack, who is the President of the Northampton/Monroe County
4 Farm Bureau.
5 Welcome.
6 MR. MACK: Thank you.
7 I'm Ray Mack from Northampton/Monroe County Farm
8 Bureau, President, associated with the PA Farm Bureau,
9 which is about 50,000-plus farm family members.
10 And hearing Mr. Krause, my statement is almost
11 identical to what his is on our stand as the Farm Bureau
12 where the farmer works six days a week. Sunday is
13 basically his day designated to rest, relax, and spend time
14 with his family to do things that they do not want to be
15 bothered with on Sundays, have to deal with, you know,
16 trespassing or any other thing like that. I have heard
17 what, you know, you have been saying.
18 Also, I am not against hunting. My son and I
19 love hunting and stuff. But we think six days a week is
20 enough to do that. We have time to do things on Sunday as
21 a family.
22 The other factor that is basically what he said
23 about hunting with the hikers and the horses and riding the
24 trails in the woods and stuff like that.
25 We have, you know, a walking trail that goes
20 1 right through my property. And when we're hunting out
2 there, we hear all kinds of grief from the hikers and stuff
3 about the danger. And just like what was said about, you
4 know, the chance there being a stray bullet and getting
5 hit. Sundays are the only day that they can actually be
6 out there, feel safe, without any worry of a stray bullet
7 or any other thing happening while they're on the trail
8 enjoying their day of recreation.
9 We just had a township meeting last night of
10 supervisors. It was brought up at the meeting the concern
11 with the residents of the township and those that use the
12 walk trail of this incident.
13 So there is concern out there with Sunday hunting
14 restricting their use of the trail and stuff on Sunday
15 that, you know, worry about, like I said, being hit with a
16 stray bullet. Yes, it's not likely. But, yes, it's a
17 concern that it could happen.
18 My son and I, we went to a hunter safety course
19 when he was 12. And the Game Commission instructor made
20 the comment, be courteous to the landowner. That's where
21 you hunt. Ask permission. Thank the landowner. And even
22 offer to give up some of your game to the landowner to show
23 your appreciation.
24 That's all we're asking for is consideration of
25 our rights to have a day that we don't have to deal with
21 1 anything of the hunters.
2 Alan.
3 MR. BEAR: Good evening. My name is Alan Bear.
4 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Your name again?
5 MR. BEAR: My name is Alan Bear. I am an
6 addition to this hearing at the last minute at the request
7 of Marcia Hahn. I am here representing loosely the
8 Northampton PFSC. I can't give you a lot of guidance.
9 It's pretty much a 50/50 proposition.
10 There was a non-binding vote at a board meeting,
11 at a normal monthly meeting, of the PFSC here in
12 Northampton, where the members were polled. Whether they
13 supported hunting on Sundays, State game lands only, and it
14 was affirmative. They would support that proposition.
15 There was another vote where I went back to my
16 gun club, the Keystone Rod and Gun Club in Bath. I brought
17 that issue up to them. They voted no. We went back to the
18 federation meeting, the monthly meeting, and the majority
19 voted no. So it's going to go both ways. You've already
20 heard all of the pros and cons for it.
21 However, our concerns focus on the withdrawal of
22 private hunting land by farmers and private owners from the
23 Voluntary Cooperative Access Program, the farm game co-op.
24 As I understand it, my sources have indicated there has
25 been a recent surge, small one, of property owners from
22 1 members of the Farm Bureau who are removing their land from
2 hunting on the principle of it as much as anything else.
3 They have asked and have a longstanding
4 opposition to Sunday hunting of any kind, as I understand
5 it. That's what my sources tell me and what I've, you
6 know, read and heard and what people have said.
7 I think we take it for granted. These people
8 give their land for us to come and hunt. And they don't
9 ask a lot. But what they do ask is no Sunday hunting.
10 It makes no difference whether it's for the
11 maintenance of their property. This is their livelihood.
12 The reasons are -- there are a lot of reasons they don't
13 want people on their property. They already deal with
14 enough problems. They have stated their case.
15 That's where our concern is, because this program
16 is the pillar of great hunting here in PA. We don't think
17 that that should be messed around with.
18 MR. MACK: As a sidebar, 5(c), which is this area
19 that you're in right now, is particularly vulnerable to the
20 loss of private land due to the limited amount of State
21 game lands.
22 With the number of permits still on the books at
23 46,000 -- 60,000, 70,000 have already been sold -- we feel
24 that there could be a problem if farmers start withdrawing
25 their land just based on the fact that the Game Commission
23 1 came out in support of it.
2 I've heard people say that they feel that's a
3 slap in the face because they feel that they're giving a
4 lot. They're not asking for much. And the Game Commission
5 came out in support of Sunday hunting.
6 The reasons aren't important. Are those numbers
7 factual? Is there a spike in the withdrawal of land?
8 Now, why is that a problem? Joe hunter grabs his
9 bow on Saturday morning and goes to a property he has
10 hunted 20 years in a row and all of a sudden it's posted.
11 Where is he going to go? He's going to encroach on
12 somebody else's. Just a thought.
13 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Thank you very much,
14 gentlemen.
15 For the record, we do have Sunday hunting in PA
16 already -- I don't know if you're aware -- for foxes,
17 coyotes, and crows. So there is Sunday hunting already in
18 PA. We're looking on this legislation to expand that to
19 other species under the direction of the PA Game Commission
20 to set the seasons and bag limits as they do now. The
21 Legislature would not be involved with that.
22 I'm curious, Mr. Mack, are you participating in
23 the Red Tag program with the Game Commission on your farm?
24 MR. MACK: We are not, no.
25 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Okay. I was just
24 1 curious about that.
2 Have you had any incidents the other six days a
3 week on your property with hikers being injured by stray
4 bullets?
5 MR. MACK: No, not that I'm aware of.
6 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Do they hike on
7 other days of the week besides Sundays?
8 MR. MACK: Yes, definitely so. Yes.
9 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Okay.
10 MR. MACK: But their concern is Sunday is the
11 only day that they know, or soon to know, that there's no
12 one out there that this could happen. Yes, it's not
13 likely, but, yes, it can happen. Sunday is the only day
14 that they feel that there's not a problem with that.
15 They're out there with their children riding bikes,
16 whatever, hiking, on the trail.
17 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: What would your
18 comment be as far as the fairness is concerned of the Farm
19 Bureau taking a position as it has in reference to a
20 private landowner who may own 200 acres of woods,
21 non-farmland?
22 So we have essentially one group telling another
23 you cannot hunt on Sunday on your own land if they wish to
24 do so. Is there an unfairness issue there in your mind
25 from the stance the Farm Bureau is taking?
25 1 MR. MACK: I don't recall the Farm Bureau, you
2 know -- standing against?
3 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Standing against all
4 Sunday hunting.
5 MR. MACK: Oh, yes. All Sunday hunting. But as
6 far as what -- I don't understand your question.
7 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Someone has private
8 land. If they own 200 acres of woods --
9 MR. MACK: Right.
10 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: -- that's not being
11 farmed but they own the land and they would like to hunt on
12 that land on Sunday.
13 MR. MACK: Right.
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: You're telling them
15 they can't.
16 MR. MACK: That's right. That's how we stand on
17 that, yes. Right.
18 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: I just want to try
19 to understand how that works.
20 MR. MACK: Yeah. The property owner has the
21 right to say yes or no.
22 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Not on Sunday.
23 MR. MACK: No. Right. I still don't understand
24 what you're saying. If it's open --
25 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: You don't understand
26 1 What I'm saying?
2 MR. MACK: Yeah. I don't know what you're
3 getting at.
4 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: The question is
5 simple.
6 MR. MACK: Under current law, are you referring
7 to?
8 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Under current law on
9 Sundays, you cannot hunt many species in PA. We're one of
10 11 states that has a moratorium on Sunday hunting --
11 MR. MACK: Right.
12 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: -- in general.
13 MR. MACK: Right.
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: The PA Farm Bureau,
15 as you've testified, is against Sunday hunting in PA. My
16 point is, if we're talking about an individual that owns
17 land, owns his own property, and would like to hunt his own
18 property on Sunday, under current law, he is not allowed to
19 do that. I don't know how I can make that clearer.
20 MR. MACK: That's correct. I understand that
21 now.
22 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Okay.
23 MR. MACK: Yeah.
24 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Is that fair?
25 MR. MACK: I don't really know that answer.
27 1 That's how we stand on that. We do not want extended
2 hunting in PA.
3 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: On anybody's land?
4 MR. MACK: Right. Exactly. Yeah.
5 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Even if it's not
6 farmland?
7 MR. MACK: Right.
8 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Okay.
9 MR. MACK: It doesn't matter.
10 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Chairman Staback.
11 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: That is probably one
12 of the most unfair statements I've ever heard, that the
13 Farm Bureau would dictate basically how some other private
14 property owner can use his land. You're telling him that
15 the PA Farm Bureau is against Sunday hunting, period, not
16 only on your farmland but on his private property, too.
17 That's basically what you just said.
18 MR. BEAR: May I interject something? I read an
19 article just yesterday that the president of the Farm
20 Bureau corrected an article where he had been quoted
21 something like that. He reiterated the fact that it is the
22 Farm Bureau's position that they don't want Sunday hunting
23 based on the overwhelming sense within the membership of
24 the Farm Bureau, 51,000 members. But it's up to an
25 individual to decide what happens on that person's land.
28 1 He presented it as that they had polled their
2 members over the years and this is a longstanding position,
3 that they don't want hunting on their property. And he
4 further elaborated his position to be that the state can do
5 what it wants to and we can do what we want to. And
6 farmers, individual farmers, can do what they want to.
7 My point was, why are we potentially angering one
8 of the foundations of the great hunting that we have here
9 in PA, which is the private public program of the Farm Game
10 Co-op that's been around for 70 years? It has made PA the
11 best hunting in the east. And we're about to sit there and
12 tinker with that.
13 The farmers have stated their case for years that
14 they don't want Sunday hunting. Why are we pulling the
15 tail of that tiger? I don't understand that. Because it's
16 not just the farmers. It's also the tourist industry.
17 There are a lot of other people that don't.
18 And I understand. I recognize members here
19 tonight that are at my meetings. And it's not a debatable
20 thing. This is what they want. They want Sunday hunting.
21 Some people don't.
22 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: From the very
23 beginning, we have said that we are not attempting in any
24 way, shape, or form to tell a farmer how he can and cannot
25 use his land. If we adopt Sunday hunting in the
29 1 Commonwealth and he chooses not to want to have hunting on
2 his property on Sunday, all he needs to do is post his
3 land, no Sunday hunting, period. And there will be no
4 Sunday hunting on his property.
5 But those people that own other private land,
6 two, three, four hundred acres, that do want to do Sunday
7 hunting on their property are now free to do that and enjoy
8 their property the way they want to enjoy it, the way the
9 farmer wants to enjoy his by simply having a day of rest, a
10 peaceful day, no shooting, nobody walking around his land.
11 I can understand that. I can understand that.
12 But to say that we want no Sunday hunting,
13 period, anywhere, under any circumstances, I think is
14 wrong. I think it's wrong. You're now dictating to other
15 private property owners how they can and cannot use their
16 property. And that's the problem.
17 That's the problem that I have with their
18 statement.
19 MR. MACK: I see your point. But I think we
20 ignore that at our own peril. Because I think if you get a
21 lot of property owners that for whatever reason decide
22 because Sunday hunting now has become a reality, they're
23 going to withdraw those private lands from not only the
24 management but also from the hunting.
25 And I'll talk to you about this later. We have a
30 1 particular problem here in 5(c) if all of a sudden hunters
2 start going to these properties and they're posted. We're
3 going to have problems not only in the management but in
4 the satisfaction of the hunters.
5 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: We would like nothing
6 more than to get a roundtable discussion going with the
7 Farm Bureau, with the Grange, to see if common ground can
8 be found somewhere that would get them on board with this
9 concept.
10 You mentioned earlier one of the problems that
11 you foresaw was uncontrolled trespassing. And you said
12 that you don't think that the Game Commission would have
13 the wherewithal to deal with that.
14 That is something that's negotiable. You know,
15 maybe the Game Commission can find a way to deal with that.
16 But we'll never know that unless we start discussing these
17 things at a roundtable.
18 Let me tell you, several years ago, we started
19 talking about a bill which became known as the poaching
20 bill. All right. And we probably had some of the most
21 diverse groups that you would want to deal with at the
22 roundtable. And there were many people who thought we were
23 wasting our time, that we would never find common ground
24 with this group of people.
25 But guess what? We did. We did. And the
31 1 poaching bill eventually became law. And that bill was
2 passed without compromising the integrity of its intent at
3 all.
4 So where we have the opportunity to sit and
5 discuss, right, there's always light at the end of the
6 tunnel I would like to think. And that's what I would like
7 perhaps you to take back to your organization. And the
8 same with the Grange.
9 What is wrong with sitting down and trying to
10 work this out? Why can't we have a roundtable and discuss
11 it? Why does it have to be with the Farm Bureau, with the
12 Grange, so black and white that under no circumstances can
13 we support Sunday hunting, period? We're not going to have
14 it on our land and because we can't have it, neither can
15 you. That's the unfairness of the whole thing. And that's
16 what I think we need to talk about and see if, indeed, we
17 can find common ground.
18 What do you think?
19 MR. MACK: I agree.
20 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Worth a shot?
21 MR. MACK: Yeah.
22 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: There you go. I wish
23 more of your people thought like you.
24 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Thank you,
25 Mr. Chairman.
32 1 I might add just for the record, too, we
2 understand in Ohio where they did pass Sunday hunting a few
3 years ago, part of the legislation included increasing the
4 penalties for trespassing. That was part of the deal that
5 happened in Ohio.
6 So I mean, we would be willing to discuss
7 amending the bill in that fashion. But up to now, the
8 signals, as Rep. Staback indicates, have not gone that way.
9 We have some members who have some questions.
10 Rep. Peifer.
11 REP. PEIFER: My question is for Mr. Mack. Did
12 you actually solicit from your members in the Monroe County
13 Farm Bureau, did you actually ask questions to them saying,
14 you know, what is your opinion on allowing hunters on state
15 lands?
16 MR. MACK: No, I did not. No. I didn't hear any
17 from any Monroe County landowners or farmers.
18 REP. PEIFER: And you specifically didn't ask
19 those questions as far as looking for feedback?
20 MR. MACK: No, I did not. I didn't get the
21 opportunity to do that. No.
22 REP. PEIFER: Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. MACK: This I heard from our Northampton
24 County through the Farm Bureau meetings that centered on
25 the concern of the Sunday hunting.
33 1 REP. PEIFER: Because I think those questions
2 asked are pretty relevant as far as, you know, a number of
3 your members said, fine, if it's on State lands.
4 So we're worried about hikers and bird watchers.
5 And, you know, Pike County, where many of the Lehigh Valley
6 people go to recreate, it's okay there. You know, it's
7 okay if I have to wear orange on Sunday and my property is
8 near State lands. But it's not okay for someone else's
9 property down here. And I understand that, I guess,
10 because there's certain people that don't want individuals
11 on their property.
12 But it just seems odd that, you know, we're
13 taking the stance that we have to protect the hikers but
14 it's okay if, you know, they're up there or somewhere else
15 but not in my backyard type of an opinion.
16 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Thank you.
18 Rep. Emrick.
19 REP. EMRICK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 Mr. Mack, are you aware of an offer being
21 extended to the Farm Bureau or anybody to sit down in a
22 roundtable format or to have a discussion?
23 MR. MACK: Not that I'm aware of, no.
24 REP. EMRICK: Okay.
25 MR. MACK: Not at this time. I have not heard
34 1 that, no.
2 REP. EMRICK: So that opportunity was not offered
3 at this point?
4 MR. MACK: Not that I know of, no.
5 REP. EMRICK: Okay. I'm going to ask a question,
6 kind of a followup to Rep. Peifer's, and then I'll tell you
7 the feedback I'm getting.
8 MR. MACK: Okay.
9 REP. EMRICK: Based on, obviously, your
10 experience with the Farm Bureau and your lifetime
11 involvement with both Northampton, Lehigh, Monroe County
12 farmers -- I'm sure you know most of them -- what is the
13 sense that you're getting as far as people, farmers,
14 threatening to post their land and will they post it not
15 just on Sunday but every day?
16 MR. MACK: I've heard from, you know, many.
17 Again, we haven't done a survey with the farmers.
18 REP. EMRICK: Right.
19 MR. MACK: This is what I've been hearing from
20 farmers that I've come in contact with. And, yes, the
21 concern is that they could consider -- like I said, if they
22 have to post for no Sunday hunting, they said they might as
23 well post for no hunting at all.
24 REP. EMRICK: Right. And that's the feedback I'm
25 getting from people, from farmers --
35 1 MR. MACK: Right.
2 REP. EMRICK: -- who are very angry. And I have
3 been an avid outdoorsman and hunter my entire life, as you
4 know.
5 MR. MACK: Yes.
6 REP. EMRICK: And people have told me flat out if
7 they do it, we're going to post our property, period, and
8 nobody's getting on.
9 MR. MACK: Yes.
10 REP. EMRICK: And so that certainly raises
11 concerns for me with expanding the opportunity. It's a
12 tough issue.
13 MR. MACK: Yes.
14 REP. EMRICK: And one of my fears is if this
15 would go through, are there going to be unintended
16 consequences? And as some of the other members brought up,
17 or the gentleman to your right testified, that we may have
18 hunters with a lot less places to hunt if this goes
19 through. And that was not the intention certainly of the
20 bill.
21 And so I think your private conversations or
22 informal conversations with other people kind of reinforce
23 what I've heard personally as well.
24 I also have other questions that maybe aren't
25 appropriate, certainly not for you, Mr. Mack, but just for
36 1 the committee as a whole and for the issue, but I think
2 need to be answered.
3 I know that it was brought up that the Game
4 Commission endorsed this legislation. However, it was
5 endorsed by a four-to-three vote with one person either
6 absent or abstaining. And I'm not sure I've ever heard why
7 there were three in opposition. And I'd like to have those
8 questions answered and what the viewpoints were.
9 And then, you know, another question and concern
10 I have is what's going to happen to an already decimated
11 deer herd if we continue to expand days to hunt and nobody
12 -- I've not been afforded to ask that question to anybody.
13 I'd certainly like to ask that question,
14 especially when we have no idea, you know, how many deer
15 are being harvested every year in PA. We have such an
16 archaic system of trying to count how many deer get
17 harvested and some other things.
18 So I have a lot of questions that I would like to
19 see answered before this moves forward.
20 MR. MACK: Sure.
21 REP. EMRICK: But I want to thank you for your
22 time to come and testify today. Thank you.
23 MR. MACK: You're welcome.
24 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Rep. Emrick, just
25 for the record, we will be having another hearing which we
37 1 hope you will be able to attend in Harrisburg in October.
2 And at that hearing, the Game Commission will be offering
3 testimony.
4 REP. EMRICK: That's awesome.
5 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: So you will have a
6 chance to get that information. As for whether the offer
7 has been made for roundtable discussions, those offers have
8 been made.
9 I can tell you that the Farm Bureau president's
10 reaction to the discussions simply was, what part of no
11 don't you understand? And no means no. That's the
12 feedback we received up to date.
13 Did you want to add something, Chairman Staback,
14 to that?
15 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: No. I really wanted
16 to correct what you had said about no offer being made.
17 We were some of the folks who made those offers.
18 And the response after the third or fourth time was, you
19 know, what part of no don't you understand? They're not
20 interested in sitting down.
21 I can maybe respond to one more. When you talked
22 about the Game Commission and the rationale for supporting
23 Sunday hunting, certainly I, for one, commend them on their
24 decision to get behind the move.
25 But understand this. It will be the Board of
38 1 Commissioners and the agency that will be deciding, you
2 know, what species will be hunted, when they will be
3 hunted, and what the bag limits will be. We will have
4 nothing to do with that.
5 And I have been assured that before any decisions
6 are made by the Commission regarding what I just alluded to
7 that there will be a series of public hearings across the
8 state that will be held with all the stakeholders,
9 including the equestrians, the backpackers, and the Farm
10 Bureau and whoever else is involved in the issue itself.
11 So there will be, you know, plenty of time for
12 people to have what input they want to have into the issue
13 if and when -- if and when this ever becomes law.
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: I want to thank
15 Mr. Mack and Mr. Bear for your testimony tonight. We
16 appreciate it very much.
17 MR. MACK: Thank you for having us here.
18 MR. BEAR: Thank you.
19 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Our next speaker,
20 presenter, will be Jennifer Sager, United Bowhunters of PA,
21 and Jillian Clemente, UBP youth member.
22 And you can begin whenever you're ready.
23 MS. SAGER: Good evening, Chairman Evans,
24 Chairman Staback, and members of the House Game and
25 Fisheries Committee. My name is Jennifer Sager. And I am
39 1 the president of the United Bowhunters of PA.
2 Here tonight also with me is Jillian Clemente.
3 She is a youth member of the United Bowhunters of PA.
4 We are here tonight representing the UBP
5 membership of 2,800 men and women bowhunters. Please know
6 that the UBP appreciates the opportunity to provide
7 testimony on House Bill 1760.
8 The UBP membership, consisting of over 1,000 life
9 members and just over 1,800 regular members, is dedicated
10 to the preservation, promotion, and protection of
11 bowhunting opportunities in the Commonwealth of PA. The
12 UBP supports game management based on sound biological
13 principles and a resource-first philosophy.
14 To date, the UBP is the longest lasting
15 organization solely supporting bowhunters in the
16 Commonwealth. The UBP is governed by an elected board of
17 directors and a slate of elected officers. These board
18 members and officers set the stage for UBP's position and
19 objectives based on our mandate.
20 From time to time, the general membership is
21 polled on specific topics. And those poll results dictate
22 the actions that the UBP Board and officers take in regard
23 to the subject at hand.
24 That said, the United Bowhunters of PA recently
25 conducted a membership poll, which included pinning
40 1 questions on the topic of Sunday hunting in PA. A previous
2 poll on the subject was conducted in 2004. In order to
3 evaluate any change in the UB membership's opinion since
4 2004, we asked the same questions in our 2011 poll.
5 Even though membership numbers fluctuate year to
6 year and there has been some turnover in membership since
7 2004, the results of the 2011 poll are identical to the
8 results obtained in the 2004 poll. 67 percent of the
9 membership of the UBP support Sunday hunting statewide.
10 However, they do not support separation of a Sunday hunting
11 opportunity between private and public lands.
12 The UB supports that the science of game
13 management should be handled by the PA Game Commission with
14 all seasons and hunting implements for the various game
15 species being independently regulated by the PGC.
16 As the Game Commission Board of Commissioners has
17 indicated their interest in regulating a Sunday hunting
18 opportunity with the passage of the resolution on the
19 topic, the UBP would like for them to have that opportunity
20 with Sunday hunting.
21 As I mentioned earlier, joining me today is UBP
22 youth member Jillian Clemente. Jillian is here tonight to
23 share with all of us her article on Sunday hunting which
24 was recently published in the Reading Eagle.
25 Jillian.
41 1 MS. CLEMENTE: Hi. As Jen said, my name is
2 Jillian Clemente. Thank you for the opportunity to speak
3 tonight. My article I'm about to read was originally
4 published on August 30th, 2011, in the Reading Eagle Voices
5 section, which is the section that comes out every Tuesday
6 by teens, for teens, and about teens. And here is my
7 article.
8 The treasured Sundays of fall find teenagers
9 sleeping in, families going to church, and people taking
10 leisurely hikes in the woods.
11 You know what I like to do in the woods on
12 Sundays? Hunt. Yet I can't go hunting on Sundays due to
13 the ancient blue law established in 1873 when dinosaurs
14 walked the earth with their parents. This law prohibits
15 hunting on Sundays for religious reasons.
16 Most states have repealed these laws, saying they
17 are unconstitutional. PA, along with ten other states,
18 still ban and/or limit hunting on Sundays.
19 In June, the PA Game Commission voted four to
20 three to support Sunday hunting in PA. This means that if
21 the Legislature passes House Bill 1760, Sunday hunting will
22 be legal and regulated by the Game Commission.
23 If either the blue law were deemed
24 unconstitutional or House Bill 1760 were passed, it would
25 mean my family and I can hunt on Sunday once the season is
42 1 regulated by the Game Commission. It would also help the
2 state's economy, creating a potential 4,400 jobs, according
3 to pagunrights.com. Also, hunting with appeal more to
4 youth hunters because they will have an extra day over the
5 weekend to enjoy the sport.
6 You see, the best times to hunt are at dusk and
7 dawn because that's when the deer are moving and looking
8 for food. The people who are busy during the day would
9 then have an extra day to carry on a sacred family
10 tradition.
11 My whole family, with the exception of my mom,
12 loves to hunt, bow or rifle. Ever since we could hold and
13 properly operate a weapon, we have been hunting. All of us
14 love to hunt on Sundays to relax and just have fun family
15 bonding time.
16 But, of course, there are the people who do not
17 want the law changed. They claim that people can hunt
18 during the week and that should be good enough. I, of
19 course, came up with a few examples to contradict that
20 assertion.
21 For example, let's say I play soccer for my
22 school and I have practice every weekday until 5:30 p.m. I
23 get home and it's dark out, so I cannot hunt. This limits
24 my opportunities to Saturdays only. Oh, wait. That
25 weekend there's a soccer tournament all day, so I'm going
43 1 to be too busy to hunt. Oops, well, there goes my week.
2 But what about adults' opportunities to hunt?
3 What if they have a job that requires them to work 9 to 5
4 and some Saturdays? Archery season is six weeks long, but
5 it seems just as short as two-week rifle season if you
6 don't even get an opportunity to go out in the woods.
7 It's funny. Some users of public lands, such as
8 hikers and bikers, were complaining about how they don't
9 want to be disturbed on their excursion on Sundays, which
10 is understandable. The ironic part is, what about during
11 the week when they walk and scare deer away from the
12 hunters on public land when us hunters are just trying to
13 enjoy our sport?
14 By the way, if you are one of those people who
15 use money on Berks County public land and are against any
16 hunting, just remember that hunting license sales fund much
17 of the public land you use.
18 Thank you for allowing me to share this with you
19 tonight.
20 (Applause.)
21 MS. SAGER: Jillian mentioned several benefits of
22 allowing hunting on Sunday. All of these benefits have
23 already been realized in other states. However, it really
24 boils down to one basic thing. And that is providing the
25 choice to the people of the Commonwealth so that they may
44 1 choose what they wish to do with their time.
2 As Jillian mentioned, and as I am certain several
3 of you can attest to, if your child or grandchild
4 participates in a fall sport, chances are they are
5 practicing until dark during the weekdays and perhaps
6 competing on Saturday for that tournament win.
7 I personally work at a place where the fourth
8 quarter is our busy season. Several of our employees whom
9 are hunters didn't even purchase a hunting license last
10 year as they had to work six days. Had a Sunday hunting
11 opportunity been available, they would have purchased their
12 license and gotten into the field, as I am certain some
13 youth could have fit a hunt in or two between sports
14 commitments.
15 The United Bowhunters of PA supports a change in
16 legislation that would remove the issue of Sunday hunting
17 from the legislative process and place it fully under the
18 control of the PA Game Commission. The UB supports House
19 Bill 1760.
20 Hunting on Sunday, it really is just another
21 activity for which the citizens of PA should have the
22 choice to participate in.
23 Thank you for allowing Jillian and I to provide
24 the testimony tonight on behalf of the membership of the
25 UBP. We would be glad to answer any questions that you may
45 1 have for us.
2 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Thank you, Jennifer
3 and Jillian. And I might add that, Jillian, it's always
4 wonderful for us to have young people involved in the
5 process. And we appreciate you being here tonight to
6 represent the youth.
7 Do any of the members have questions?
8 Rep Heffley.
9 REP. HEFFLEY: Jillian, your article was very
10 intriguing. I liked it. Question for you.
11 I mean, if the argument were Sunday hunting,
12 which has now escalated more than just, I believe, about
13 the blue laws but it goes into deer management, tourism
14 dollars, and the Farm Bureau, and what some of their
15 oppositions were. But if we were focusing strictly on the
16 blue laws, as you said, it was banned at one point because
17 of religious belief. And I go to church most every Sunday.
18 However, I do agree with you in the sense that we
19 are really limiting the option that people have to get out
20 in the woods and hunt. I know personally in my
21 professional career, I don't have a whole lot of time to
22 hunt and haven't been able to hunt the last five years
23 basically because I work Saturdays and I work until dark
24 every night.
25 With that, going back to the blue laws, my
46 1 daughter plays a double-header softball game practically
2 every Sunday now. And I don't necessarily agree with all
3 that. But there really isn't a law forbidding it.
4 However, there's still a law forbidding hunting.
5 So what is your opinion on soccer and football
6 games and wrestling and everything else that goes on a
7 Sunday right now, if we were going to base this law
8 strictly on the blue laws of why they were established for
9 religious purposes?
10 I don't know. I guess I'm answering my own
11 question. But how do you feel about all those other
12 activities that go on on Sunday?
13 MS. CLEMENTE: (No response.)
14 MS. SAGER: You can think about it and get back
15 to him.
16 REP. HEFFLEY: That's fine.
17 MS. SAGER: You know, if I may?
18 REP. HEFFLEY: Yes.
19 MS. SAGER: It is about choice. It is about what
20 people wish to do with their time. And for some, it's
21 soccer. For some, it's hunting. Thank you.
22 MR. CLEMENTE: As Jillian's father, may I help
23 her, if you don't mind?
24 REP. HEFFLEY: Sure.
25 MR. CLEMENTE: We do have that choice on Sunday.
47 1 And if we are doing a double-header for softball or soccer
2 or whatever, we will attend church on Saturday night and
3 then kind of fit Sunday in. But again, we don't have that
4 choice to go to church on Saturday night and hunt on
5 Sunday. And I think that's what she's trying to say with
6 the blue laws.
7 Thank you.
8 MS. SAGER: Thank you.
9 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Chairman Staback?
10 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: I don't have a
11 question, just a comment.
12 Certainly, I agree with both you and what you had
13 to say. But I would ask that you go one step further as
14 the president of the United Bowhunters. And that is to
15 contact all of your members and suggest to your members
16 that they contact the members of this committee and the
17 House and Senate members that represent them in the General
18 Assembly and make sure that these people understand that
19 your members support the concept of Sunday hunting. Make
20 sure that Representatives and Senators understand that.
21 MS. SAGER: Absolutely.
22 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: And the best way to
23 do that is either direct calls or e-mails. That would be
24 crucial, I think, to the eventual passage of this measure.
25 MS. SAGER: Absolutely. And we are trying our
48 1 best to get the word out on this. And we did receive your
2 letter. Thank you.
3 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Good. Thank you.
4 MS. SAGER: Thank you.
5 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Any further
6 questions for the panel?
7 Thank you very much.
8 MS. SAGER: Thank you.
9 MS. CLEMENTE: Thank you.
10 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Our next presenter
11 will be Tim Reiger, vice president of the Lehigh Valley
12 Chapter, Safari Club International.
13 MR. REIGER: Good evening, Mr. Chairman, fellow
14 committee members. Thank you for the privilege of being
15 here this evening.
16 Again, my name is Tim Reiger. I'm the vice
17 president of Safari Club International, Lehigh Valley
18 Chapter. We are the largest chapter Safari Club in the
19 world. Currently, we have 876 members as of August the
20 22nd, which was our last board meeting.
21 Safari Club is a worldwide organization that is
22 pro hunting. We actively pursue the rights of hunters
23 through conservation, education, and humanitarian efforts
24 worldwide. I'm here today to give my support for Sunday
25 hunting. And every member that I have spoken to or sent
49 1 e-mails out to has also given me the same feedback.
2 Safari Club supports a lot of conservation
3 programs throughout the state. The biggest one that our
4 chapter has been supporting is Elk Alliance. I'm sure
5 you're all familiar with that.
6 We are on our fourth or fifth year of our support
7 of that program through tens of thousands of dollars of
8 money that we have been raising through our Chapter. We
9 also support education. Through our Chapter alone, we send
10 teachers out to the American Wilderness Leadership School
11 in Wyoming.
12 And we also support humanitarian efforts
13 worldwide through our program called Blue Bags, which we
14 send out through hunters internationally, humanitarian aid,
15 medical aid, educational aid, those kind of things.
16 On the positive note of Sunday hunting for PA,
17 there's a huge, I think, missed option here of economic
18 impact not only for the Game Commission in improved license
19 sales, resident and non-resident, because there's a lot of
20 non-residents who will not come to PA because they cannot
21 hunt on a Sunday.
22 There are also going to be huge impacts for local
23 economies, which we all know is much-needed dollars, and
24 from the local gun shops to local restaurants, hotels, gas
25 stations, mini-marts, everything.
50 1 But I think the biggest thing we're missing on
2 this whole program is what Jillian endorsed, our youth. We
3 are missing generations, not just this generation, many
4 generations of young hunters, my son being one of those who
5 is now in his freshman year of college, who will not be
6 able to hunt this year because of the restrictive laws
7 against Sunday hunting.
8 And I besiege you to use good judgment to allow
9 this to happen. It is a personal choice. It is not a
10 mandated choice whether you let people on your property.
11 I, too, am a property owner. I, too, allow young hunters
12 on my property. To this day, I've only harvested two deer
13 on my property. I've had ten other youth there harvesting
14 deer because I endorse our youth hunters.
15 It's not about me. It's not about you. The
16 average age of people in here -- excuse me if I offend
17 anybody -- probably 45-plus. We have one young lady here.
18 Where's our youth? This is who this is for, not us as
19 senior hunters. We have opportunities to take a day off
20 from work if we need to if we so feel the itch to go
21 hunting.
22 Our youth have a hard time. The school district
23 I'm involved with, if you take your son or daughter out for
24 a day of hunting, they want to charge you with truancy,
25 which is a little ridiculous. Hunting is very educational.
51 1 It's not all about killing. There's a lot of education
2 involved in hunting.
3 I do agree. Like I said, this is a personal
4 choice, but I do ask that the Game Commission and this
5 committee make the appropriate choices for Sunday hunting.
6 Thank you.
7 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Thank you very much,
8 Mr. Reiger. We appreciate your testimony.
9 Do we have questions from any of the members?
10 Rep. Staback.
11 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Again, I agree
12 totally with everything you have to say, especially about
13 the young people and the reasons why they are not hunting
14 today and the great number that I think would get involved
15 in the sport if they had Sundays to go hunting.
16 I would ask you to contact your members, as I did
17 bowhunters, to contact those members that support the
18 concept of Sunday hunting to contact the members of this
19 committee and the members of the House and Senate that
20 represent them in the General Assembly and make sure that
21 these people understand that they want to see Sunday
22 hunting become a reality in this Commonwealth.
23 MR. REIGER: Yes.
24 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Like any bill that
25 has a sense of controversy about it, initially the first
52 1 group that we hear from are the people who simply oppose
2 it. It's time now that the supporting community get vocal
3 on the issue. They need to speak up, stand up, and
4 demonstrate their support for Sunday hunting and they have
5 to do that now.
6 MR. REIGER: Yes.
7 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: And that is the way I
8 think it can best be handled. It can be handled by e-mails
9 and calls to members of this committee that need to deal
10 with this bill and the members that represent them in the
11 General Assembly being contacted by them individually,
12 making sure they understand -- they understand -- that they
13 want their members to support this.
14 MR. REIGER: Thank you.
15 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Rep. Hahn.
16 REP. HAHN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 Thank you for coming out and testifying tonight.
18 Did you say all of your members were supportive?
19 MR. REIGER: Of everyone that I spoke to, yes,
20 ma'am.
21 REP. HAHN: Okay.
22 MR. REIGER: I did not speak to all 876 of them.
23 REP. HAHN: Right. Only because when we hear
24 from the other gun clubs and the members that I'm hearing
25 -- and, you know, as I'm going to gun clubs and talking to
53 1 them -- I just talked to a father and son the other day.
2 One was for and one was against. Same family. So, you
3 know, I was just wondering why you had such a large
4 majority for it.
5 MR. REIGER: We are a group of hunters, for
6 hunters.
7 REP. HAHN: Well, I think the sportsmen clubs or
8 the rod and gun clubs that I've been to, they're a group of
9 hunters. And I have to tell you, when this issue first
10 came up, I was surprised. I thought, oh, this is a
11 no-brainer. Everyone, all the sportsmen, all the sportsmen
12 clubs in this district are going to say we want Sunday
13 hunting.
14 And as I'm talking to family members, sportsmen,
15 they're all telling me, no, we don't want Sunday hunting.
16 And I'm just wondering why you feel there's such a
17 difference. And when you talk to them, they're sportsmen,
18 too.
19 MR. REIGER: We're the type of a group that not
20 only hunts here in PA but also all over the United States
21 and the world. Like I said, PA is one of 11 states that
22 does not allow hunting on a Sunday. I think there's two
23 provinces also in Canada, Saskatchewan being one of those,
24 that does not allow hunting on a Sunday.
25 The hunters don't favor them as much as areas
54 1 they can go hunting on a Sunday because your time afield
2 definitely is limited by your ability to take time off from
3 work.
4 But it is a personal choice. You know, myself
5 being a landowner, I endorse this 100 percent because I
6 want to give the youth a chance to hunt. Okay. I don't
7 need to have Sundays personally. I would love to have
8 Sundays, certainly, because I work six days a week like
9 everybody else. You know, Sundays I'm out mowing grass.
10 I'd much rather be sitting in a tree somewhere.
11 But again, that is a personal choice. And
12 unfortunately for the people who want to limit the use of
13 their land saying, oh, well, we're going to pull all of our
14 land because of Sunday hunting, I really pity those people
15 because within a few short years, their properties are
16 going to be so decimated with deer damage, they're going to
17 be begging hunters to come back and take the deer off their
18 property because deer double their population every year.
19 And it won't be long until they defoliate things.
20 And there's areas in PA now where we have
21 controlled hunts because of this. Valley Forge National
22 Park is a huge one. Gettysburg is another one. We take
23 marksmen in to harvest the deer because they are
24 defoliating our national parks.
25 REP. HAHN: Thank you.
55 1 MR. REIGER: You're welcome.
2 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Rep. Peifer.
3 REP. PEIFER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 Mr. Reiger, along those lines, I mean, I think
5 we're all trying to get more of our young children, young
6 adults, out in the woods.
7 And it's funny. My daughter attends high school
8 at Wallenpaupack and the science teacher last week asked a
9 question of the 22 individuals in the room, how many people
10 hunt? And she was the only individual. Similar to
11 Jillian, she was the only individual in the class that
12 raised their hand. And that's one day.
13 Lucky, where I represent, the first day of deer
14 season is a holiday. And if it was truancy when I was
15 going to school, I would have problems today because I
16 spent a lot of days on educational trips with my uncles and
17 parents in the woods. And it was a great place to be. So
18 I think I understand some of these pressures.
19 And that's something that I think -- I don't want
20 to speak for the Game Commission -- about. We need to get
21 our young children involved in the wilderness and the
22 woods. And, you know, it's a shame that we've got to, you
23 know, pick different sides in this issue.
24 MR. REIGER: Yes.
25 REP. PEIFER: And because the Farm Bureau and the
56 1 sportsmen are such good partners together, that's what
2 challenges all of us. And I know Rep. Emrick talked about
3 the challenges that we face.
4 I mean, even with the bowhunters, 67 percent of
5 the members support Sunday hunting. So a third of their
6 members of a very active organization don't support it.
7 And if you're standing or walking up to someone on the
8 street, we get a mixed bag.
9 You know, in my head I see someone and I'm
10 thinking, boy, that person is a hunter. Hey, what do you
11 think of Sunday hunting? I'm trying to figure out what the
12 answer is before I ask question. I'm wrong many a times.
13 So we're struggling with this. But we're really
14 trying to get our young people involved. And I think we're
15 on target there. It's just if we could find that part of
16 the solution, I think that's what we're looking for.
17 MR. REIGER: We just need the opportunity to give
18 them the chance to go afield. I think that's the biggest
19 thing.
20 And this Sunday hunting issue, going back to the
21 Game Commission, like the decision they made to do antler
22 restrictions in PA, they met a lot of opposition in PA for
23 antler restrictions.
24 And now if you talk to most of your hunters that
25 are out afield, that was the best thing that the Game
57 1 Commission has done in the last 40 years, was to restrict
2 antler sizes. Rather than just spikes for a buck, now you
3 have to have three on one side and in certain counties you
4 have to have four.
5 I mean, that was a wonderful thing they've done
6 because it's definitely increased the size and the number
7 of our buck population.
8 But getting back to your issue of the schools
9 with truancy. When I grew up, the first day of buck season
10 was part of our Thanksgiving holiday. It was a holiday.
11 They shut the school districts down because 60 or 70
12 percent of the students would not be there along with the
13 faculty. You know, they would all be afield.
14 Unfortunately, our hunting numbers are waning and
15 the age of our hunters is increasing dramatically over the
16 years. We need to get our youth involved. We are missing
17 out on the biggest opportunity here in PA in a long while
18 to get more youth involved.
19 REP. PEIFER: If even -- if I can, Mr. Chairman.
20 Even with the mentor youth hunt, I have a friend with two
21 sons who love to be hunting every second they can. So I
22 said, let's go rabbit hunting on that Monday. Well, Monday
23 they had something after school.
24 Well, what about Tuesday? Well, Tuesday they had
25 something after school. It gets dark early. Wednesday
58 1 they couldn't. Thursday they couldn't. They couldn't
2 hunt. I mean, they literally couldn't hunt.
3 So, like I said, it is a challenge. And people
4 talk about choice here. But, you know, it's just difficult
5 for everyone. But I think we're just trying to get our
6 youth involved more in the outdoors. And that's the real
7 issue that we're looking at.
8 MR. REIGER: Yes.
9 REP. PEIFER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Thank you.
11 Thank you very much, Mr. Reiger, for your
12 testimony and being here tonight.
13 MR. REIGER: Thank you.
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Our next presenter
15 is Janet Nyce, advocate for women and youth in the
16 outdoors, former advisor to the Governor's Youth Council on
17 Hunting, Fishing, and Conservation.
18 Welcome.
19 MS. NYCE: Thank you.
20 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Begin whenever
21 you're ready.
22 MS. NYCE: Thank you. I'd like to welcome you to
23 Southeast PA. 42 percent of the population of PA lives
24 here with us.
25 Good evening, Mr. Chairman, esteemed committee
59 1 members, fellow sportsmen and -women. My name is Janet
2 Nyce. I live in Montgomery County and have held a PA
3 hunting license for the past 47 years. Hunting changed my
4 life in ways that are hard to describe.
5 But because of that passion, I have been a
6 volunteer activist/mentor for the past 35 years. For the
7 past eight years, I have had the privilege to sit on the
8 Governor's Advisory Council for Hunting, Fishing, and
9 Conservation. Within that appointment, I was also given
10 the opportunity to be the advisor to the Governor's Youth
11 Council for Hunting, Fishing, and Conservation.
12 These young council members are from age 14 years
13 to graduation from high school. I met with them every
14 other month and for several special occasions such as
15 Hunting Heritage Lobby Days and a trip to Washington, D.C.,
16 to talk to federal legislators about PA issues.
17 I would like to mention at this time that during
18 the eight-year tenure, both councils, adult and youth,
19 voted in favor of Sunday hunting and sent letters to the
20 Governor's Office and to the Game and Fisheries Committees.
21 Every year we came to Hunting Heritage Lobby Day and
22 promoted Sunday hunting.
23 I have enclosed with my testimony the white paper
24 that was written by the Governor's Advisory Council in
25 2005, a copy of the figures that sportsmen pump into the
60 1 economy, an article called Helping Kids Outdoors.
2 The topics list from the Youth Council show youth
3 involvement, a map from the National Rifle Association
4 showing the states that embrace Sunday hunting, a study
5 that the Youth Council was involved in called the Top Five
6 Challenges, another report called Expanding Hunting Related
7 Tourism Economy, and a very personal letter that I have
8 written to my children, none of which I will read out loud
9 to you this evening. But they are there for your
10 information.
11 I attended a meeting a few years ago of the
12 Legislative Budget and Finance Committee on the results of
13 the study that revealed their findings on the economic
14 benefits of Sunday hunting. I believe the bullet points
15 that were listed in that report are still very valid today.
16 There was also a white paper written by the
17 Bureau of Tourism on the positive impacts of Sunday hunting
18 and the benefits to the cottage industry that develops in
19 hunting areas.
20 So I'm going to approach this in a little
21 different manner. Let's talk about the truth about
22 hunting. Let's talk about the truth about Sunday hunting.
23 As a woman hunter, I am already a minority. I
24 resent being a second-class citizen by not being able to
25 choose what I wish to do on a Sunday with an activity that
61 1 is a mainstay in our lives.
2 Why are hunters being treated differently? We
3 all know that one of the biggest obstacles for families and
4 youth are time. Refer to the five top challenges. The
5 current blue law restricts our opportunities and makes it
6 harder for families and youth to find time to hunt and
7 trap.
8 They can fish on Sundays since 1937. You can buy
9 liquor. You can play golf. You can go to the mall. You
10 can do anything else. But you can't hunt. It's
11 discrimination in its finest form and I'm really very tired
12 of it.
13 I've been behind the push for Sunday hunting for
14 two decades. My husband and I have traveled the country
15 for years and hunted on Sundays where we'd go to increase
16 the time we can spend afield. But not at home.
17 We have six grandchildren. We spend much of our
18 leisure time introducing them to the outdoors and to the
19 heritage and legacy that we taught their parents. Along
20 with that, we are creating memories that will last a
21 lifetime, teaching respect of our natural resources,
22 helping them to understand that they must become strong
23 stewards and civic leaders in their future.
24 I despise watching them sit on a sofa watching TV
25 and playing Game Boy at the same time. It's not healthy.
62 1 And it creates a lazy, lazy child.
2 On Sunday morning a round sporting clay, some
3 crows, if you're lucky a coyote or a fox, is all we have to
4 offer right now. Help us change that. We hobble our
5 future with the barrier of no hunting on Sundays. We need
6 to put on wide-angle lenses, glasses, to see what our
7 grandchildren will be left with, if anything.
8 Look what a day in the field with a family gives,
9 so many lessons, which I have listed in my letter to my
10 children attached to your testimony. How many hunters have
11 you heard say that working on Saturday morning, not getting
12 to camp until mid-afternoon, and then they're unable to use
13 the full day on Sunday.
14 Are we being sent a subliminal message here? Is
15 the meaning from our state government that hunting isn't
16 important? It's not legitimate enough?
17 States that have Sunday hunting, where my family
18 often goes in the fall, have no horror stories to tell. No
19 declining wildlife issues. Church attendance remains the
20 same. Landowners have a choice to post their property if
21 they so choose. It is documented in your report. I want
22 the same rights. I want to choose the days I hunt and I'm
23 afield with my family and friends.
24 Another concern. What will happen to our North
25 American model? Hunters raise approximately 80 percent of
63 1 the money raised through buck tags and excise taxes. They
2 carry the load for conservation.
3 If recruitment continues to decline and we don't
4 make the effort to really recruit the next generations of
5 youth, what proposals will you as a legislator come up
6 with? How will we replace this funding and the passionate
7 people like you, and like me, who will safeguard and
8 protect our natural resources?
9 I have full confidence in the Board of
10 Commissioners from the PA Game Commission to set
11 appropriate seasons and bag limits per their mission.
12 I feel very discouraged that the PA Farm Bureau
13 continues to fight against Sunday hunting when they have
14 been issued crop depredation allowances to kill deer on
15 Sundays. That's right. The Game Law says it, 24/7.
16 Again, I would like my right to do that.
17 Maybe it's time to relook at all the special tags
18 that are given out to special interest groups and
19 re-evaluate their benefit to the hunting community. Maybe
20 I also need to question their new partnership with the
21 Humane Society.
22 This is about being discriminated against. This
23 is about not having personal choice with a time-honored
24 legacy. This is about allowing a group of naysayers to
25 control my life. This is about a barrier that I can't fix
64 1 when my grandchildren look at me and ask, well, Mamaw, why
2 can't we stay and hunt on Sunday?
3 In my humble opinion, the most significant
4 barrier to hunting and recruitment in PA remains the
5 prohibition of Sunday hunting. I am imploring you to have
6 the courage to set this right. Thank you very much.
7 I have another short statement. Some of you know
8 me. And normally when I'm parading around, I have 30
9 teenagers with me, the Governor's Youth Council on Hunting,
10 Fishing, and Conservation. They are out of session due to
11 the change of Governors. I was in touch with the group to
12 see if anyone could come this evening.
13 So I would like to tell some of the people that
14 they don't have choice. If they had left school early
15 today and skipped practice or skipped band, they would not
16 be permitted to play in the game or come to practice for
17 the rest of the week.
18 Now, wouldn't you think that this would be
19 extra-curricular, extra-credit things for them to do, to
20 come to learn about how government works? There's 30 kids.
21 I had one that wanted to come all the way from Butler
22 County, but the punishment from school would have been so
23 severe the parents wouldn't allow it. So they don't have
24 choice when they have organized activities.
25 But I really thank you. I thank you for coming
65 1 to the Southeast and hosting this. And I think this is
2 probably the fifth or sixth time I've talked about Sunday
3 hunting in 20 years. I'm going to be really old. Come on,
4 guys. Let's get this done. You know, let's get this done.
5 But thank you. Thank you for letting me come
6 this evening.
7 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Thank you for your
8 testimony.
9 (Applause.)
10 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Janet, a couple of
11 follow-up questions here.
12 MS. NYCE: Certainly.
13 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: You mentioned about
14 the threat of some to post their land seven days a week if
15 this was to pass into law.
16 MS. NYCE: Yes.
17 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: In your experience
18 in visiting other states that you have been able to go
19 through -- I mean, we're one of only 11 states that does
20 not have it now -- these threats made in other states that
21 did finally pass Sunday hunting, were those fears founded
22 or were they unfounded?
23 MS. NYCE: I spent some time talking to a
24 gentleman in New York from their DNR this past week just to
25 ask that question. They had a very large controversy going
66 1 on in their state about starting Sunday hunting. And a lot
2 of farms were closed down. But within the next year, many
3 of these were reversed.
4 There's always going to be posted land. And we
5 are so extremely fortunate here in PA that we have over 4
6 million acres of public land. That means if there's a
7 million hunters -- wait, you've got a million acres. I
8 mean, there's lots and lots of public land. It's hard for
9 us to change. And it's hard for us to change our
10 traditions. If we go here and grandfather went there and
11 great-grandfather went there, of course, we don't want to
12 even consider going somewhere else.
13 I think if we just think about this as this has
14 nothing to do with wildlife management. The Game
15 Commission takes excellent care. They meet constantly and
16 take excellent care of our wildlife. This is about an
17 antiquated law that's robbing some of us of the privilege
18 that everybody else has.
19 And that's why I'd really like to see the change.
20 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Well, those of us
21 who sit on the committee and those of us who are in the
22 General Assembly, you know, don't take this lightly.
23 MS. NYCE: I know you don't.
24 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: This is a very
25 controversial issue. And I must tell you that as a kid
67 1 growing up myself and living through the era of blue laws
2 when they were much more widespread, I can tell you if my
3 grandmother were alive today she would be very upset with
4 this.
5 I mean, she was the type of -- we didn't buy
6 groceries on a Sunday in my family in the '60s, you know,
7 growing up as a kid. But that's a time, I believe.
8 MS. NYCE: It is.
9 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: And we have
10 different things going on in today's society and things
11 have changed. We can buy liquor on Sundays, as you
12 mentioned.
13 MS. NYCE: Yes.
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: One other quick
15 followup and then I'll turn it over to the others at the
16 table.
17 MS. NYCE: Sure.
18 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: I'd like to have
19 some more information about the Game Code, the allowances
20 that are given to members of the farming community to kill
21 deer on Sundays and any other day of the week, 24/7.
22 How many deer are they allowed to take under the
23 Red Tag program?
24 MS. NYCE: I don't have a clue. I'm just aware
25 that they have the depredation permission. And it doesn't
68 1 say in that Game Code you can't do it on a Sunday.
2 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Right.
3 MS. NYCE: So that means you can do it anytime.
4 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Okay. I'll turn it
5 over now to Chairman Staback.
6 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Janet.
7 MS. NYCE: Hi, Ed.
8 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: At every hearing
9 we've had, the issue of safety in the woods has come up.
10 MS. NYCE: Ugh.
11 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: And there are those
12 who would bird watch and go hiking who believe that if we
13 adopt Sunday hunting that they are going to be taking their
14 life in their hands by going for a walk.
15 What are your thoughts on that?
16 MS. NYCE: Oh, my blood pressure was really going
17 up.
18 First of all, I'm a National Rifle Association
19 certified firearm instructor. I'm a hunter/trapper
20 education instructor. I spend all my spare time mentoring
21 and teaching. I have not met one of these crazy people
22 that shoots guns into the air.
23 As we all know, No. 1 rule of safety, always,
24 always, always, always point your muzzle in a safe
25 direction. Always know what your target is and beyond.
69 1 I think there's several things happening.
2 There's people who are not exposed to hunters and have a
3 picture of what a hunter is. Well, look at me. I am a
4 hunter. And I am proud of it. I am safe. I have several
5 firearms. And I have never committed any kind of
6 infraction with them, nor has anyone around me done so. I
7 wouldn't tolerate it.
8 We have bumped into slob hunters. They usually
9 don't have back tags on. And we turn them in. We are not
10 tolerant of it. We turn them in.
11 I love the fraternity of hunters. I think
12 they're grounded. I think they're respectful of wildlife.
13 I think they're extremely respectful of the earth. I think
14 they think constantly about sharing that joy and that
15 message with other people and are hurt when they find
16 people that don't want to listen.
17 I feel we are becoming anesthetized to the
18 realities of life anymore. It's shocking to me that I've
19 actually had people say to me, why do you have to kill
20 things? You can go to the grocery store and buy it. And I
21 said, you're right. I can. But somebody else killed that.
22 No. Hello. Yes, someone killed that. And I said, I
23 really enjoy eating organic meat. I think it's healthy for
24 me and for my family. It's also something that's made me
25 the person I am today.
70 1 So I don't know what the answers are. But I feel
2 the playing board should be equal. I think we all should
3 have the same rights as everybody else. I want the same
4 right to have choices. If I chose to stay home and go to
5 church that day and go out to lunch, even though I could be
6 out in the field, my choice.
7 But if it happens to be a day the kids are home,
8 my grandchildren are home from college, they have no other
9 opportunity to go and we can take that day, oh, it would be
10 wonderful.
11 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Yes.
12 MS. NYCE: It would be wonderful.
13 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Okay.
14 MS. NYCE: I don't like going to New York all the
15 time. Come on, guys.
16 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: You would agree then
17 that the odds of someone just taking a social walk in the
18 woods during hunting season --
19 MS. NYCE: I've never heard of it.
20 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: If Sunday hunting was
21 adopted, the odds of that person being shot are relatively
22 remote.
23 MS. NYCE: Well, Ed, don't you think also that we
24 are not being realistic? We're talking, say,
25 eight-hundred, nine-hundred thousand hunters. You can
71 1 start dove hunting September 1st. And you can work your
2 way through until the end of seasons. How many days of
3 field does each hunter take?
4 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Right.
5 MS. NYCE: I've talked to a lot of the fathers of
6 my students from the Youth Council. They're very happy if
7 they can get off the first two days of deer season and the
8 last two days. That's four days. We're not talking
9 900,000 people out in the woods at the very same moment or
10 the very same day.
11 And I think they're very conscious of safety.
12 There are accidents. There's accidents in anything. But
13 conscious misconduct, I've never seen it.
14 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Okay. Thank you.
15 MS. NYCE: You're welcome. Am I excused?
16 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: I don't know.
17 MS. NYCE: Are we whispering?
18 MINORITY CHAIRMAN STABACK: Do you have more
19 questions?
20 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Yes. Rep. Heffley.
21 REP. HEFFLEY: One of the big pushes for Sunday
22 hunting is obviously to get the youth involved and to allow
23 more time for sportsmen to go out. And I would agree with
24 that.
25 MS. NYCE: Yes.
72 1 REP. HEFFLEY: What do you see in the other 11
2 states that also ban hunting on Sundays? Are those states
3 also experiencing the same decline in license sales as PA?
4 Is this the issue that will bring the youth in or is it a
5 couple of different issues that we'll see decline or do you
6 think this is the biggest issue?
7 MS. NYCE: I think the sad fact is we're
8 declining across the country. I think it's a social
9 attitude. I think it's us baby boomers who have been a
10 huge curve in the population that hunted and we are
11 starting to phase out of that, which is leaving more of a
12 flat line coming in behind.
13 Kids have a lot of pressures on them to be very
14 involved in their schools, very involved in outdoor
15 activities. And they're rather strict about it. Having
16 six grandchildren, we're having trouble getting them up to
17 the mountains anymore. Because, as I said, if they miss
18 this or they miss that, they get punished.
19 I've been teaching a long time. And I can't tell
20 you the people that I have bumped into, actually young
21 adults, through women in the outdoors, women on target,
22 becoming an outdoor woman, oh, I always wanted to learn how
23 to hunt, but I had no one to teach me. I had no place to
24 go. I had no equipment. Those were always the top three
25 reasons on the essays that we would have them fill out at
73 1 the end.
2 And we've reached out. We've tried lots of
3 things. We've thought outside of the box, you know, trying
4 to find ways. But it has an awful lot to do with social
5 attitude.
6 REP. HEFFLEY: Thank you very much.
7 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Thank you very much.
8 And with that, we appreciate your testimony.
9 MS. NYCE: Oh, thank you.
10 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: Thank you for being
11 here tonight. It was nice.
12 (Applause.)
13 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: We would like at
14 this time to reintroduce Rep. Hahn, who has been the
15 gracious host to us here in her legislative district. I
16 had a chance to travel around here a little today. I come
17 from way in the northwest as far as you can get, 340 miles
18 due west.
19 Rep. Hahn, please take over at the microphone.
20 REP. HAHN: Thank you, Chairman.
21 Again, I wanted to thank everyone for coming out
22 tonight. We had an agenda. We have to stick with it. But
23 I know some people here in the audience have some
24 questions. And I believe Rep. Evans and I are willing to
25 stay. And I'm sure some of the other members of the
74 1 committee are willing to stay after. So if you have any
2 questions for us, just come up afterwards and we'll try to
3 answer you or listen to your concerns as best we can.
4 Thank you.
5 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN J. EVANS: With that being
6 said, we appreciate everyone being here tonight. Thank you
7 very much. Have a good night.
8 (The hearing concluded at 8:05 p.m.)
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75 1 I hereby certify that the proceedings and
2 evidence are contained fully and accurately in the notes
3 taken by me on the within proceedings and that this is a
4 correct transcript of the same.
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8 Jean M. Davis 9 Notary Public
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