LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 March 2021 3939

OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday, 17 March 2021

The Council met at Eleven o'clock

MEMBERS PRESENT:

THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE YU-YAN, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE KIN-FUNG, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE STARRY LEE WAI-KING, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAK-KAN, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN KIN-POR, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-KIN, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS LAU SUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE PAUL TSE WAI-CHUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL TIEN PUK-SUN, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE STEVEN HO CHUN-YIN, B.B.S.

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THE HONOURABLE FRANKIE YICK CHI-MING, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE YIU SI-WING, B.B.S.

THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAN-PAN, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG, S.B.S., M.H., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ALICE MAK MEI-KUEN, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE KWOK WAI-KEUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG WAH-FUNG, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE ELIZABETH QUAT, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG-KONG, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE POON SIU-PING, B.B.S., M.H.

DR THE HONOURABLE CHIANG LAI-WAN, S.B.S., J.P.

IR DR THE HONOURABLE LO WAI-KWOK, S.B.S., M.H., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHUNG KWOK-PAN

THE HONOURABLE JIMMY NG WING-KA, B.B.S., J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE JUNIUS HO KWAN-YIU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HOLDEN CHOW HO-DING

THE HONOURABLE SHIU KA-FAI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WILSON OR CHONG-SHING, M.H.

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THE HONOURABLE YUNG HOI-YAN, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE PIERRE CHAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHUN-YING, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG KWOK-KWAN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LUK CHUNG-HUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LAU KWOK-FAN, M.H.

THE HONOURABLE IP-KEUNG, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE CHENG CHUNG-TAI

THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG WING-SHUN, M.H., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TONY TSE WAI-CHUEN, B.B.S., J.P.

MEMBER ABSENT:

DR THE HONOURABLE PRISCILLA LEUNG MEI-FUN, S.B.S., J.P.

PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:

THE HONOURABLE KIN-CHUNG, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P. CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION

THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHAN MO-PO, G.B.M., G.B.S., M.H., J.P. FINANCIAL SECRETARY

THE HONOURABLE TERESA CHENG YEUK-WAH, G.B.S., S.C., J.P. SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE

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THE HONOURABLE WONG KAM-SING, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT

DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHI-KWONG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE

THE HONOURABLE JOHN LEE KA-CHIU, S.B.S., P.D.S.M., J.P. SECRETARY FOR SECURITY

THE HONOURABLE FAN, J.P. SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING

PROF THE HONOURABLE SIU-CHEE, J.P. SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH

THE HONOURABLE EDWARD YAU TANG-WAH, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL WONG WAI-LUN, J.P. SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT

THE HONOURABLE YUN-HUNG, J.P. SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION

THE HONOURABLE TAK-KUEN, J.P. SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE

THE HONOURABLE WING-HANG, J.P. SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY

THE HONOURABLE KWOK-WAI, I.D.S.M., J.P. SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS

THE HONOURABLE YING-WAI, J.P. SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS

THE HONOURABLE CHING-YU, J.P. SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY

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CLERK IN ATTENDANCE:

MR KENNETH CHEN WEI-ON, S.B.S., SECRETARY GENERAL

THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE TO ADDRESS THE COUNCIL AND ANSWER QUESTIONS PUT BY MEMBERS.

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THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE'S QUESTION TIME

PRESIDENT (in ): Members please remain standing while the Chief Executive enters the Chamber.

(The Chief Executive entered the Chamber)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Chief Executive's Question Time. The Chief Executive will first address the Council.

CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): Good morning, President of the Legislative Council and Honourable Members. I am very glad that the Chief Executive's Question Time can be resumed today, which will be conducted in the so-called "short question, short answer" format introduced several years ago after my discussion with President LEUNG. Generally speaking, the Chief Executive would not address the Council during the Question Time conducted in a "short question, short answer" format in order to buy time for Members to raise their questions. Yet, with the President's consent, today I will spend about three minutes to give an account of an issue.

The National People's Congress ("NPC") passed the Decision on improving the electoral system of the Special Administrative Region ("HKSAR") on 11 March. As I have pointed out in my statement issued on that day, the Central Authorities take the initiative from the national level to improve the electoral system of Hong Kong, having fully considered the actual situation in HKSAR. The aim is to ensure that Hong Kong can stay true to the original aspiration in implementing the principle of "One Country, Two Systems" and get Hong Kong back on the right track. It is only by putting in place institutional safeguards to ensure "patriots administering Hong Kong" that the principle of "One Country, Two Systems" can be fully and faithfully applied in HKSAR which is conducive to the long-term prosperity and stability of the city. The Decision stipulates the fundamental principles and core elements for improving the electoral system of HKSAR, and authorizes the Standing Committee of NPC ("NPCSC") to amend Annex I and Annex II to the Basic Law in accordance with these fundamental principles.

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In the meantime, the Central Government is listening to the views of various sectors of society to assist NPCSC in making the relevant amendments in due course. After NPCSC has completed the relevant work, the SAR Government will make every effort to press ahead with the work of amending the relevant local electoral legislation in accordance with the amended Annex I and Annex II. Such work includes drafting the principal and subsidiary legislation that require amendment, and introducing the bill to the Legislative Council for scrutiny upon endorsement by the Executive Council. Thereafter, the SAR Government will organize and regulate relevant election activities in accordance with the amended electoral legislation, implement a new electoral system that is consistent with the actual situation in Hong Kong, and properly arrange and conduct the various elections to be held in the next 12 months.

The SAR Government is fully committed to the aforesaid tasks despite the very tight time frame, but the support and cooperation of the Legislative Council are also indispensable. By referring to past experience, the SAR Government now proposes that the Legislative Council may consider setting up in advance a subcommittee under the House Committee to allow Members to buy time to discuss the main contents of the NPC Decision and Annexes I and II of the Basic Law, which will be amended by NPCSC later. After the SAR Government has introduced the bill to the Legislative Council, this subcommittee can immediately be turn into a Bills Committee with a view to expediting the scrutiny of the bill. Relevant officials of the SAR Government are very happy to facilitate the work of the subcommittee and will attend the meetings of the subcommittee. Would the Legislative Council please consider our aforesaid proposal.

MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): The COVID-19 pandemic has persisted for more than a year. Movement of people between Hong Kong and the Mainland has come to a halt, whether it be for economic purposes, visiting relatives and travelling. Many people are very anxious, wishing to return to the Mainland or return to Hong Kong from the Mainland. Yet, I notice the communiqué issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affair recently that if non-local people have received Mainland-manufactured vaccines, their visa applications will be handled more "lightly" and with greater convenience. They will not be required to provide proofs of nucleic acid tests nor the travel records in the past 14 days and health declaration forms. It means that the Mainland has gradually relaxed entry quarantine restrictions. Even though Hong Kong has just 3946 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 March 2021 commenced its vaccination programme, many people have already asked us whether Hong Kong citizens, after receiving Mainland-manufactured vaccines, can have their quarantine period shorten when returning to the Mainland, or even be exempted from quarantine or taking other nucleic acid tests? In this connection, can the Chief Executive propose to the Central Government on our behalf that Hong Kong citizens can be exempted from quarantine when returning to the Mainland, so that the movement of people between the two places can gradually resume normal?

CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): President, I thank Mr CHAN Han-kan for his question. I fully understand that the COVID-19 pandemic which has persisted for more than a year has had a huge impact on various sectors of society and the general public. The movement of people between the two places, in particular, has aroused the concern of Mr CHAN and many Honourable Members present. In this connection, we have maintained regular contact with the Central Authorities to see under what circumstances and conditions the movement of people can gradually resume. If Honourable Members remember, I have said many times that before the emergence of the fourth wave of the outbreak, that is, in early November last year, we already had a set of plans to allow Hong Kong citizens to return to Guangdong on a quota basis. Rather unfortunately, the fourth wave broke out and it has not been completely subsided even today. For this reason, until the local epidemic is under control, the conditions are, in fact, not yet ripe. I believe vaccination helps and we have kept urging people to get vaccinated. We also have initial talks with the relevant Central Authorities regarding the circumstances under which certain restrictions can be relaxed if people have received two doses of vaccines. We will continue to pursue our work in this direction.

MS YUNG HOI-YAN (in Cantonese): President, I would like to ask the Chief Executive whether she is aware that in the soon-to-be-open M+ Museum of the West Kowloon Cultural District ("WKCD"), there are some so-called artworks that made me and many members of the public feel very puzzled. It is because these artworks are exactly exhibits that spread hatred against the country. We have been to many different art galleries and museums in the past, most of them promote positive energy and expression of aesthetic appreciation. But why is it that WKCD, which we have spent so much public money as well as time and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 March 2021 3947 effort to develop, has to display some artworks that are suspected of violating the Hong Kong National Security Law and insulting the dignity of the country? I have this question for the Chief Executive: Will she instruct the relevant department to examine whether the exhibits concerned have violated the Hong Kong National Security Law and the Basic Law, and how to prevent the display of these exhibits which provoke anti-China sentiments and are suspected of inciting others to commit secession?

CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): I thank Ms YUNG for her question. As we all know, WKCD is a very important cultural project in Hong Kong. It is also because of the development project of WKCD, in particular the Hong Kong Palace Museum therein, the 14th Five-Year Plan recently passed by the National People's Congress has specifically proposed that Hong Kong can pursue a role in the exchange of arts and culture between China and the rest of the world. Ms YUNG worries whether the exhibits in one of the flagship projects, i.e. the M+ Museum of modern and contemporary visual arts, have stepped on the red line, since all Hong Kong compatriots, especially public officers, must support and safeguard national security upon enactment of the Hong Kong National Security Law. In this regard, every public officer must be very cautious; but of course, as a centre for arts and culture, we also respect the freedom of cultural and artistic expression at the same time. I think it is possible to draw a line to distinguish between freedom of cultural and artistic creation, and artworks used to spread hatred or harm the relations between the people of the two places, and even threaten national security as mentioned by Ms YUNG just now. We will be particularly alert when dealing with this matter.

MR KENNETH LAU (in Cantonese): Chief Executive, the latest unemployment rate released by the Census and Statistics Department yesterday is 7.2%, the highest in 17 years since the outbreak of SARS in 2004. There are 260 000 people unemployed and 150 000 underemployed. The retail sector has definitely been hit hard, with its unemployment rate having reached 9.1%. Meanwhile, however, the Government has approved fare increases by bus operators despite the economic downturn. Although the Public Transport Fare Subsidy Scheme is extended to the end of this year and the monthly subsidy cap is raised to $500, many members of the public say that the subsidy is actually of no help to them. Now they have to bear increasing pressure in daily life.

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Has the Chief Executive looked into the people's plight? After all, the poor employment environment is attributable to the epidemic being out of control. May I ask whether the Chief Executive has any way to achieve "zero infection" as soon as possible?

CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): I thought Mr LAU's question sought my response to the increase in bus fares, but in the end, he asked about the epidemic. Mr LAU's view is correct. Now the unemployment rate has risen to 7.2%. We are rather worried. Over the past year or so, we have done a lot of work to support and even create employment. However, if the epidemic cannot be brought under control, people cannot travel between the two places. The tourism industry is unable to revive, and international contacts have almost "frozen". In fact, the economy can hardly recuperate, and it is even more difficult to create employment. The present priority is to prevent and control the epidemic. As Members can see, we have indeed made the best possible efforts in every aspect in preventing and controlling the epidemic. However, as in all other places in the world, apart from the Government's efforts and assistance from the experts, full support and complementary efforts from the local people are necessary. Suppose we require members of the public to undergo compulsory testing, but they do not do so. Now we encourage the public to receive vaccination, but they refuse. Neither do they comply with the measures of wearing masks and social distancing. In that case, we will be constantly playing catch-up―every time there is an outbreak, we will have to do a lot of work to contain the epidemic, but the target of "zero infection" is yet to be achieved. Our objective is still "zero infection", but we really need the full cooperation of members of the public. If anything can be done within the Government's purview, I will ask my colleagues to do it to the best of their abilities. It is precisely because, as mentioned in the last part of Mr LAU's question, if the epidemic is out of control, it is just useless to say anything then. Thank you, Mr LAU.

MR CHEUNG KWOK-KWAN (in Cantonese): Chief Executive, for clients of the law firm taken over by The Law Society of Hong Kong, the Christmas Eve last year was not peaceful at all. Their funds held by the law firm were frozen. In particular, those victims who intended to buy a property with their life savings not only had their deposits frozen by the law firm, but were also being pursued for the price difference of the property. Their homeownership dream has turned into a nightmare. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 March 2021 3949

Some victims told me that they had to borrow money from relatives and friends or even from loan sharks so as to barely complete the transactions, putting them in heavy debts. The Legal Practitioners Ordinance originally intended to take over problematic law firms with a view to protecting Hong Kong people. However, we see that in the past 10 years of enforcement, the law firms taken over often caused severe harm to their clients. Some victims told me that government departments, The Law Society of Hong Kong and the intervention agent all followed the book. No one made any mistake, so no one cared about the victims. Many victims complained to me in tears that they could have found a way out if the law firm was not taken over by The Law Society of Hong Kong. However, once The Law Society of Hong Kong announced the takeover, the result is tantamount to sentencing them to a death penalty. Therefore, Chief Executive, may I ask whether the Government will seriously examine and improve the current mechanism of taking over law firms in an attempt to restore this Ordinance's original intent of protecting the public and regain public confidence in Hong Kong's legal profession?

CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): Thank you Mr CHEUNG. As a lawyer himself, Mr CHEUNG should understand that this profession, just like other professions in Hong Kong, attaches great importance to self-regulation of professional conduct. My position has always been this: while it is true that I have always respected professional autonomy, sometimes there must be some role for the Government because the ultimate objective is to protect the interests and safety of Hong Kong people. Due to the time constraint, I cannot give a detailed response here on how to do this, but I will ask the relevant Secretaries and Directors to look into it.

MR WONG TING-KWONG (in Cantonese): Chief Executive, the unemployment rate announced recently has reached 7.2%, with the catering and retail sectors being the hardest hit. I believe people all know that the worst is yet to come in terms of unemployment rate. And I reckon that many enterprises hope to save our economy through the Vaccination Programme. While there are just a few post-vaccination incidents, some people are indeed worried and deterred as lives are at stake. May I ask the authorities how they will step up publicity, enhance transparency, and explain the correlation between the Vaccination Programme and the incidence rate of serious diseases? As for the 3950 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 March 2021 comparison of numbers or relative importance, will they provide figures to offer an explanation, so that people will no longer have doubts and fears, and the Vaccination Programme can be smoothly conducted?

CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): President, I would like to thank Mr WONG for his reminder. In fact, as COVID-19 vaccines have been developed within a very short time, the public's confidence in them is somewhat lower than that of other vaccines developed over the years. Exactly for this reason, the SAR Government knows that it is very important to maintain public confidence in vaccines currently authorized for emergency use. We have therefore offered explanations, enhanced transparency, and urged the expert committee we have established to frequently offer explanations. We have been doing so since we officially kicked off the programme on 26 February. In respect of each so-called serious adverse incident, the expert committee would immediately convene a meeting and meet the press after its conclusion. So far, the experts have held that none of these serious, fatal or stroke incidents are directly related to the vaccination. How can this approach dispel public concern? The mortality rate of the diseases associated with these fatal cases and the number of such deaths per day in Hong Kong have been mentioned in our daily press release if people are paying attention. But we can certainly tell more. Let me say that in order for people to scramble to get vaccinated, it seems that, apart from building confidence, we also need to provide certain incentives, namely the advantages one may get following the vaccination. As I have said in my reply just now, we are contemplating not only the provision of incentives in terms of opening the border but also the room for relaxing local social-distancing measures following the vaccination. We are considering all these moves.

MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, Chief Executive, according to Article 24(5) of the Basic Law, prior to the establishment of the HKSAR, persons under 21 years of age born in Hong Kong of permanent residents shall be permanent residents. Yet, recently, the Immigration Department has pointed out according to an ordinance that since the establishment of HKSAR on 1 July 1997, permanent residents of HKSAR not of Chinese nationality and have ceased to ordinarily resided in Hong Kong will lose their permanent resident status if they are absent from Hong Kong for a continuous period of 36 months under paragraph 7 of Schedule 1 to the Immigration Ordinance.

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The present problem is that during the epidemic, children of permanent residents who are outside Hong Kong may not be able to return to Hong Kong within the 36-month period and their permanent resident status will be revoked as a result. Given this special situation, will the Chief Executive allow these children to retain their permanent resident status?

CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): Thank you, Mr LEUNG. I believe that some people are troubled by this policy during the epidemic. In fact, under the COVID-19 epidemic which has dragged on for more than a year, people are unable to interact with each other or return to Hong Kong, giving rise to all kinds of situations that we have never seen before. I have therefore asked the heads of department to examine whether there is any discretionary power and to handle such cases in a more sympathetic manner on a "case by case" basis. Since there is no problem with the policy itself―Mr LEUNG is not challenging our policy―just that due to the restrictions imposed on cross-boundary travel, these people can neither return to Hong Kong nor go to the Mainland even if they want to do so. This is similar to the case where some Hong Kong residents in the Mainland cannot return to Hong Kong to seek consultation at the Hospital Authority as they wish. We as the SAR Government have to find ways to solve the problems faced by the affected residents. I am aware of such cases. The Director of Immigration will also consider how to exercise discretion on a case by case basis.

MR MARTIN LIAO (in Cantonese): President, the bill on the improvement of Hong Kong's electoral system is an issue of great importance to Hong Kong. The executive and the legislature will, by all means, study how work can be speeded up to dovetail with the most pressing timetable for the elections.

Last month, the Chief Executive said in this Council that five bills pertinent to the needs of Hong Kong society would be introduced in her remaining term. President, I would like to put this question to the Chief Executive through you. Under the current situation, can the Government still manage to proceed with these legislative proposals and continue to take forward the work on these five bills?

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CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): I thank Mr LIAO for recalling my remarks made in the last Question and Answer Session about proposing legislative amendments in five respects. With regard to four of these bills, it remains our objective to introduce them in this term of the Legislative Council for deliberation. As for the fifth one, all I said at the time was that consultation would be conducted―it should be the Fire Safety (Buildings) Ordinance on which consultation will be conducted within this year―as we are unable to introduce the amendments in the form of a bill to the Legislative Council in time. The legislative work is still underway but all such work has to be prioritized. When we have introduced the bill on the improvement of the electoral system, we will, through coordination with the Legislative Council, strive for more time to examine this electoral legislation as far as possible. Where necessary, other Bills Committees may have to be put on hold for a while, in order for this electoral legislation to be passed. It is because we do not wish to see Members of the Legislative Council being too tired out by having to work on such a pressing electoral legislation while all the Bills Committees have to hold meetings and scrutinize bills as scheduled and in accordance with the procedures at the same time. I hope that we can make better arrangements for such work later through the President or Chairman of the House Committee.

MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): I was very pleased just now to hear the Chief Executive saying that you were giving consideration to the provision of vaccination incentives. Over the past several months, I have actually kept voicing out for the scheduled premises related to my sector―bars, karaoke establishments, nightclubs, mahjong parlors and clubs that have yet to resume operation―that business operators are actually suffering as they have suspended operation for nearly four months. While you are making consideration, I very much hope that you will let the staff of these scheduled premises to get vaccinated. The catering and retail sectors have been seriously affected. I encourage members of the sectors to get vaccinated and I am now working on this. I am wondering, for example, whether the number of diners at each table can be raised from four to six. This is something which I hope can be done. That said, Chief Executive, my question to you today concerns the fourth round of the Anti-epidemic Fund. In response to my question as to why the amount of money was so small this time, the Chief Secretary replied that six months were covered previously while only one month was covered this time around, adding that it was actually not a small amount. However, those scheduled premises, including bars, karaoke establishments, nightclubs, clubs and mahjong parlors that I have just referred to, have in fact suspended operation or done no business LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 March 2021 3953 for some four months. Chief Executive, will you provide funding to these scheduled premises, which have suspended operation over the past four months, to help tide them over this difficult period?

CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): Mr CHEUNG, I fully understand that the pandemic, which has lasted for such a long time, has significant impacts on the industries, particularly those premises which have yet to resume operation. The SAR Government has exerted itself in rolling out four rounds of the Anti-epidemic Fund, and over $130 billion have been allocated. Recently, the Budget prepared by the Financial Secretary also contains certain relief measures, some of which are specifically introduced to support the industries at such a difficult time. The measures proposed in the Budget have yet to be fully implemented, as they are awaiting the approval by the Legislative Council and our execution. At this stage, therefore, it is very difficult for me to further undertake that there will be another round of the Anti-epidemic Fund or additional cash allowances. As I have replied to Mr Kenneth LAU just now, the focus now is to put the pandemic under control as soon as possible. If the pandemic is well controlled, we will be able to allow these premises to resume operation as soon as possible, and thus the problems will hopefully be solved. You mentioned that you are calling on staff of food and beverages premises to get vaccinated, we are very much grateful to this. But we really need to work harder because upon enquiry, I learnt from my colleagues this morning that the vaccination rate of this group is not that high. I therefore would like to ask Mr CHEUNG to keep it up.

MR POON SIU-PING (in Cantonese): In the Policy Address delivered at the end of last year, the Chief Executive advocated "Striving Ahead with Renewed Perseverance". Many workers said they also wished to strive ahead, find a good job, resume normal work and lead a stable life again.

Currently, under the impact of the epidemic, Hong Kong is still unable to get out of the impasse. The unemployment rate released yesterday reached 7.2%, and the poverty problem in Hong Kong has become more serious than before. Many unemployed workers used to hold some expectations of the Government, hoping that it would set up an unemployment assistance fund. But the Government did not do so, making them disappointed and angry. At present, the greatest concern of many workers is when normal work and life can be resumed in Hong Kong, and how the poverty problem can be resolved. 3954 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 March 2021

May I ask the Chief Executive whether the Government has any new policies and measures to address the increasingly serious poverty problem in Hong Kong? Or will it fight a battle against poverty or set a target for poverty alleviation like the Mainland?

CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): President, poverty is a very complicated issue with numerous causes. It is difficult to give Mr POON a satisfactory reply within a few minutes. As Hong Kong is a relatively well-developed place in terms of economic volume and per capita income, poverty in Hong Kong is not measured by "absolute poverty" as in the case of the Mainland. Hence, it is difficult to completely eliminate poverty under the concept of "relative poverty". That is, when society is affluent, there will always be some people below the poverty line because our measurement is relative. In these few years, the Special Administrative Region Government―if Mr POON takes a look at this year's Budget, which will be examined by Members later―social welfare has already "overtaken" others. The recurrent expenditure on social welfare has become the highest among all the policy areas. I think several years ago, it ranked only the third after education and healthcare. This can precisely reflect our efforts in dealing with poverty. Otherwise, we would not have spent so much money. We have done a lot in recent years, but I agree that there is still a lot of work to be done, especially in respect of housing. Over the years, we have seen more clearly that if we can resolve the housing problem such that the grass roots can have a comfortable place to live in, i.e. public housing, coupled with considerable economic impetus and employment opportunities, the poverty problem can be alleviated. It is hoped that after the epidemic is under control, we will have more room to tackle the housing and land problems.

MS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, I think the Central Authorities have taken actions to improve the electoral system of Hong Kong this time because they have seen that the internal conflicts in Hong Kong over the last two decades or so have already taken toll on the people to a devastating extent. Therefore, it is hoped that through the improvement of the electoral system and implementation of the principle of patriots administering Hong Kong, the people's livelihood can, in turn, be improved. In fact, as Chinese Vice Premier HAN Zheng said when he met with Hong Kong Deputies to the National People's Congress and Hong Kong members of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, after the system has been improved, it is necessary for us to start LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 March 2021 3955 tackling the livelihood problems in Hong Kong, such as those relating to housing and employment. So, I believe the SAR Government has the determination to properly carry out work on the people's livelihood. In this connection, the Chief Executive has given her written consent to an amendment involving an ordinance relating to public policies proposed by me some time ago and that is, an amendment to the Waterworks Ordinance. The relevant bill, which will be proposed for First Reading later today, is also good news to many households living in subdivided units who are charged exorbitantly high water bills by the landlords. Therefore, on behalf of the affected households living in subdivided units, I thank the Chief Executive for supporting our amendment.

But much to our regret, the Executive Council approved the increase of bus fares yesterday. Members of the public are enraged. The economy is in the doldrums, and the unemployment rate published yesterday showed a further increase to 7.2%. Why should buses still be allowed to increase their fares? When the economy is in such a bad shape, why should the public be put under an even heavier burden? As mentioned by Mr POON Siu-ping just now, this year, our country has successfully eradicated poverty in an effort to accomplish the first centennial goal. Why is it that Hong Kong still cannot address our poverty problem and worse still, the Government is even taking the lead to approve an increase of bus fares?

CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): Regarding the poverty problem in Hong Kong, I hope that in future, there will be an opportunity to discuss it with Members in detail. Concerning the approval of fare increases for franchised buses by the Executive Council yesterday, please allow me to say a few words here, and I think the Secretary for Transport and Housing will further give a detailed explanation in public later. This fare increase is a very difficult decision to the SAR Government. We understand that just as Ms MAK or Mr LAU said earlier, when the economy is bad and the unemployment rate is high, the public already face difficulties in their living, and increasing the fares at this time will have bearings on the daily expenditure of the public. Members who have read the papers provided by us will see that it is exactly for these reasons that we did not allow buses to increase their fares in the past two or three years. They have asked for a fare increase not just recently but for some time already. In fact, regarding these fare increases for franchised buses, two of the bus companies have not increased their fares for at least seven years and a decade respectively. As Ms MAK can imagine, for normal business operators, how is it 3956 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 17 March 2021 possible that fares have not been increased for such a long time and yet franchise bus services can be maintained at a standard expected by the public? We can show Members a large amount of data. We have examined their financial position in detail and every bus operator has suffered heavy losses. Therefore, if we do not allow them to increase their fares this time, the outcome would be a substantial reduction in public bus services, which would make it necessary for bus operators to lay off their staff or require their staff to take no pay leave and hence affecting the grass-root people. Our approach is to relieve the pressure for fare increase as far as possible. As Ms MAK may recall, some time ago we exempted tunnel tolls for buses and this can produce the effect of lowering the rate of increase this time. The Government has also relaxed the threshold for the monthly public transport fare subsidies and increased the maximum subsidy amount until the end of this year. All these initiatives are precisely meant to ease the pressure of these fare increases on the public. But if they are not allowed to increase their fares, the adverse consequences which I mentioned just now would arise immediately.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Last Member. Mr Michael TIEN, please ask your question.

MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): The Chief Executive has put her all in the past 13 months into supervising and monitoring the development of the epidemic in person. I would like to express my grateful thanks to you. The anti-epidemic measures of the Government are tightened and loosened at times. As the Central Government has said, everything should be done in the light of the actual situation, so anti-epidemic measures are tightened and loosened at times. I can understand that.

Yet, what I want to ask is, when you decided to mandate people to wear mask, there was no mention of fitness centres in the exemption. When fitness centres were allowed to open on 18 February, you must have heard much expert advice on which premises could be opened and which should not. Have the experts told you the simplest common sense, that is, whether people using fitness centres after these centres resume operation will keep their masks on? In reality, do users of fitness centres take off their masks? What were the recommendations of the experts back then?

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I am now worried whether there are other situations where masks should have been put on but no one knows about that simply because there is no outbreak. As for law enforcement, the authorities will only put out fire when there is a fire accident and fail to know beforehand. If the situation persists, I wonder when the epidemic will end. What is the internal operation of the Government when a decision is made to tighten or relax anti-epidemic measures?

CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): In the past dozen of months, the Government had carried out epidemic prevention and control work under a comprehensive system. Starting from last January―should be 26 January―the anti-epidemic work has been raised to the highest Emergency Response Level, with I myself as the Chairman of the Steering Committee. I understand that professional assistance is required in carrying out the work in this aspect, so I have formed an expert advisory group composing of four professors. Whenever we discuss social-distancing measures or set certain conditions for these social-distancing measures, such as the requirements of keeping a social distance of 1.5 m and wearing masks, as well as other preparation work, the discussion is conducted under this system. More often than not, the most difficult part is that it is not purely about science―had this been purely a matter of science, the work would have been much easier. We can response in a corresponding way when a certain condition is met and switch to another approach when the condition is not met. We always need to strike a balance, taking into account the acceptability of the public. If we do not relax at all, the people have already displayed anti-epidemic fatigue. Members can see that people in Western countries are experiencing extremely serious anti-epidemic fatigue. They ignore the advice of the Government and even stage street demonstration against government measures to combat the epidemic. Hence, sometimes, we have to strike a balance. As for fitness centres, back then, many people considered that if people doing running exercises were required to wear mask, it would cause suffocation or adverse reactions. The case is similar to that of people running on the streets, where certain restrictions can be relaxed. Yet, facing with such a large-scale outbreak cluster, if we are to allow fitness centres to remain open, this step is the only option. I hope friends using equipment at these fitness centres can run slightly slower, so that they may continue using facilities in fitness centres according to our requirements.

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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Chief Executive's replies to Members' questions come to an end. After the Chief Executive has left the Chamber, this Council will hold its regular meeting immediately.

The Chief Executive now leaves the Chamber. Members stand up please.

(The Chief Executive left the Chamber)

ADJOURNMENT OF MEETING

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Chief Executive's Question Time ends now.

Adjourned accordingly at 11:36 am.