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CONVENERS GROUP Meeting with the First Minister CONVENERS GROUP Meeting with the First Minister Wednesday 30 September 2015 Transcript produced by the Scottish Parliament Official Report CONVENERS GROUP CONVENER *The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) IN ATTENDANCE: *Bruce Crawford MSP (Convener, Devolution (Further Powers) Committee) *Nigel Don MSP (Convener, Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee) *Jim Eadie MSP (Convener, Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee) *Murdo Fraser MSP (Convener, Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee) *Kenneth Gibson MSP (Convener, Finance Committee) *Rob Gibson MSP (Convener, Rural Affairs, Climate Change and Environment Committee) *Christine Grahame MSP (Convener, Justice Committee) *Hugh Henry MSP (Convener, Welfare Reform Committee) *Paul Martin MSP (Convener, Public Audit Committee) *Stewart Maxwell MSP (Convener, Education and Culture Committee) *Margaret McCulloch MSP (Convener, Equal Opportunities Committee) *Christina McKelvie MSP (Convener, European and External Relations Committee) *Michael McMahon (Convener, Public Petitions Committee) *Duncan McNeil MSP (Convener, Health and Sport Committee) *Elaine Smith MSP (Deputy Presiding Officer) *Stewart Stevenson MSP (Convener, Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee) *Kevin Stewart MSP (Convener, Local Government and Regeneration Committee) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: The First Minister (Nicola Sturgeon) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Susan Duffy LOCATION The Mary Fairfax Somerville Room (CR2) 1 30 SEPTEMBER 2015 2 Through the work that Roseanna Cunningham Scottish Parliament leads as Cabinet Secretary for Fair Work, Skills and Training, through the business pledge and Conveners Group through the fair work convention, we are considering how we extend the living wage into Wednesday 30 September 2015 those areas of the economy where it is not currently paid at the same levels as it is in other areas across the economy. [The Presiding Officer opened the meeting at 12:30] You mentioned specific sectors; there are other areas outwith health, such as retail and tourism, The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick): I where there is a particular need to extend the welcome the First Minister, who is here to discuss living wage. I convened a living wage summit fairly with the committee conveners the Government’s recently to consider how we do that. programme for government. I extend a very special welcome to our visitors from St Ninian’s On the positive side, a slightly higher school, who are here to listen to the session. I percentage of people in Scotland are paid the hope that you will find it interesting for your living wage than is the case across the United modern studies course in the year to come. Kingdom as a whole, but we want to extend that even further. We will seek to have discussions Let us get under way. with specific sectors, including the ones that you Duncan McNeil MSP (Convener, Health and mentioned. In many respects, those discussions Sport Committee): Good afternoon, First about how we extend the living wage further will Minister. One of the issues that appears in the be on-going. Scottish Government’s programme of work is Duncan McNeil: I mentioned pharmacists, tackling inequality—an interest that the Health and dentists and general practices because they are Sport Committee shares. We had a debate on the directly funded by the NHS. I welcome the issue this year, and I think we all agree that the initiative involving the Scottish Government and situation is complex and is affected by many local authorities, as the funding arrangements can issues and circumstances. We would also agree give you an added influence. I hope that some that income is a big issue that can make a work can be directed at pharmacists, dentists and difference. In November 2011, the Health and general practices so as to make progress and to Sport Committee recommended in its report on get more of them on the living wage register. elderly care that social care staff should receive the living wage. I know that the Government and The First Minister: Many of the workers you local authorities are working pretty hard to achieve talk about will already be paid the living wage. For that. Could you give me an update on those talks, example, any NHS staff on agenda for change will on what progress is being made and on when we already be paid the living wage, as we pay the are likely to have an outcome? living wage throughout the NHS. If there are any remaining groups of staff who work for As an addendum, could you also tell us whether independent contractors, we will certainly continue similar talks are taking place with national health to make efforts to rectify the situation. I am happy service-funded pharmacists, dentists and general to provide some specific detail to your committee practices? as to whether there are such groups and what the The First Minister (Nicola Sturgeon): Thank magnitude of the situation might be. you for that question, and thank you, Presiding Duncan McNeil: That would help people to Officer, for the opportunity to be here today. focus their responsibility. On the first part of your question, I cannot give I will be quick, as time is limited. This is another you a specific date for a specific announcement, area where there is common interest with the but I can say that, as you acknowledged, the Scottish Government. In 2013, the Health and Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Sport, Sport Committee produced a report on access to along with the Convention of Scottish Local medicines, and the Government responded in Authorities and individual local authorities, is early 2014, announcing that the patient’s voice looking very hard at how we extend the principle would be put at the centre of the new drugs and practice of the living wage into the social care approval process. However, I have recently been workforce. There are two main parts of the social contacted about the issue and have heard that, care workforce: those who work in care homes, since then, all three breast cancer drugs that have and those who provide care in people’s own been put through the new system have been homes. I am happy to ensure that your committee, rejected, prompting breast cancer campaigns and as well as the conveners group collectively, is kept charities to raise concerns about the impact of the up to date with that as the situation progresses. new system on patients. 3 30 SEPTEMBER 2015 4 Last night I was very surprised to hear from a patients will not be able to access a drug that they patient seeking access to new drugs that she is understandably believe will be of benefit to them. still subject to an individual patient treatment The nature of the discussions and procedures request—you will be familiar with those, First means that that is inevitable. We want to minimise Minister, from your previous experience—and that the number of cases in which that happens. even with the support of her oncologist she failed Kenneth Gibson MSP (Convener, Finance to get the medicine. I thought that we had resolved Committee): Next week, Parliament will debate some of those issues. the Finance Committee’s report on Scotland’s The current situation with new medicines might fiscal framework and the relationship between be worthy of review to ensure that the Scotland and the United Kingdom as we move Government’s plan and the Health and Sport forward. Where are we in terms of the key Committee’s objective have been met right across discussions in relation to the fiscal framework? I Scotland. am thinking in particular about resource borrowing to deal with potential economic shocks, the The First Minister: I am happy to consider—as baseline position in relation to the block grant the health secretary will be—any individual cases adjustment, and the no-detriment principle, and any evidence on where we can further whereby powers that are devolved from the UK to improve the system. I am loth to comment on the Scotland will not disadvantage either Scotland or individual case that you cite, because I do not the UK. have the details. The First Minister: As yet, there is no Duncan McNeil: Yes, that is why I did not conclusion to the discussions between the mention the details of the individual case. Scottish Government and the UK Government. The First Minister: If you want to pass on the The most recent meeting took place last week. I details to me or to Shona Robison, we would be know that John Swinney has committed to keeping very happy to look at it. the Finance Committee and Parliament as up to date as possible as the discussions progress, and I have a couple of brief points. Given the work next week’s debate will be a good opportunity, not that the Health and Sport Committee has done, just for the Deputy First Minister to feed back on you will be aware of that we have tried to improve the detail of where the discussions have got to, but and streamline the procedures that the Scottish for MSPs to feed in their views and ask further Medicines Consortium uses and to make them questions on the detail. There is a debate about more transparent than they were. the degree of transparency that it is possible to The SMC will always be required to take difficult have around on-going intergovernmental decisions, and individual patients and patient discussions such as those, but we work on the groups will, for understandable reasons, disagree basis that we want Parliament to be as involved as with some decisions. The IPTR process is a possible. fundamental part of the overall arrangements. It is You mentioned some of the substantive areas there to ensure that where there are particular on which discussions are not yet concluded and circumstances in an individual case and a drug on which we do not yet have agreement.
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