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Wednesday Volume 643 27 June 2018 No. 161 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Wednesday 27 June 2018 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2018 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 873 27 JUNE 2018 874 in his own inimitable and mildly eccentric way, and we House of Commons are grateful to him for doing so. Let us have a question that is in order. Wednesday 27 June 2018 Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): On a serious point, many of my constituents were affected by the The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock collapse of Carillion. How confident is the Minister that the big four accountancy firms have learnt their PRAYERS lessons for the future? Mr Lidington: Clearly, criticisms have been made of [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] the major accountancy firms by Select Committees of this House and others. The appropriate financial services regulator keeps this under review, and it is for the Oral Answers to Questions regulator to decide what, if any, steps to take. Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): With 2,300 jobs down the pan and the taxpayer paying £148 million to CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF clean up the Carillion fiasco, how can the Minister give LANCASTER AND MINISTER FOR THE such complacent responses on value for money? Will he CABINET OFFICE now admit that earlier Front-Bench assurances from those on his side of the House that the burden of Carillion’s collapse would not fall on the taxpayer have The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister turned out to be incorrect? for the Cabinet Office was asked— Mr Lidington: No, I would not accept that at all. We Outsourcing: Value for Money have said from the start that our priority has been to keep public services running. We have paid the costs of 1. Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): What the official receiver to enable the contracted operations recent assessment he has made of the value for money to continue; the schools have been cleaned, and the of outsourcing public services. [906085] meals have been served in schools and hospitals, by those providers. It is the lenders, directors and shareholders The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister in Carillion who have taken the big financial hit, and for the Cabinet Office (Mr David Lidington): Recent rightly so. business cases submitted by Departments for approval show savings to taxpayers from outsourcing in the Jon Trickett: The fact of the matter is that the Minister range of 9% to 30%. has admitted that £150 million has been paid to the liquidators. We see that his commitment to value for Afzal Khan: A recent Public Accounts Committee money has no credibility when we consider that only report found that after more than 25 years the Treasury one civil servant is monitoring 700 taxpayer-funded still has no data on whether the private finance initiative contracts, with £60 billion in assets. The Government model provides value for money.People in my constituency are sleepwalking from one outsourcing disaster to the are concerned about back-door privatisation and the next. Will he now accept the widespread public view kinds of PFI contract often used in hospitals, which that he should abandon his obsession with outsourcing? leave staff in the dark, not knowing about the security of their jobs. Will the Minister review PFI contracts Mr Lidington: The report by the Select Committee on and privatisation across all Departments in the light of Work and Pensions and the Select Committee on Business, the PAC report’s findings? Energy and Industrial Strategy concluded that the directors, not the Government, were responsible for the fact that Mr Lidington: Let us consider this: Carillion failed and that the Government had made a “It simply would not have been possible to build or refurbish competent job of clearing up the mess. I refer the hon. such a number of schools and hospitals without using the PFI Gentleman again to the fact that independent research model.”—[Official Report, 14 November 2007; Vol. 467, c. 665.] commissioned by the last Labour Government showed Those are not my words, but those of Gordon Brown, savings to taxpayers of, on average, between 20% and the last Labour Prime Minister. 30% from outsourcing, compared with undertaking tasks in house. That is money that can go back into Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con): My right frontline public services. hon. Friend might be aware of a petition in Gibraltar for it to have an MP elected to our Parliament. The Voter ID Pilots petition now has close to 10,000 signatures, which is almost half the electorate of the rock. Will he therefore 2. Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): Whether he consider backing my private Member’s Bill to give has made an assessment of the operation of recent Gibraltar the option of electing an MP to this place and voter ID pilots; and if he will make a statement. reward Gibraltarians for their unwavering loyalty? [906086] Mr Speaker: That is an extreme case of shoehorning 7. James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): in a particular concern, but it suffers from the disadvantage Whether he has made an assessment of the operation of of bearing absolutely no relation to the question on the recent voter ID pilots; and if he will make a statement. Order Paper. The hon. Gentleman has made his point [906091] 875 Oral Answers 27 JUNE 2018 Oral Answers 876 The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chloe 10. Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con): Smith): We are encouraged by the data from the returning What steps his Department is taking to encourage the officers and the statements they have made indicating use of small businesses in Government procurement. that the pilots were a successful test of the implementation [906094] of voter ID. The Electoral Commission will publish its evaluation in July and the Cabinet Office will conclude 11. Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): its own evaluation at the same time. What steps his Department is taking to encourage the use of small businesses in Government procurement. Adam Holloway: Does the Minister agree that additional [906095] measures should be brought in, given that the issue affects the vulnerable, the elderly and, in my constituency, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Oliver ethnic minorities? Dowden): Small businesses are the backbone of our economy, and we are determined to continue to level Chloe Smith: I welcome my hon. Friend’s commitment, the playing field so that they can compete for Government which I share, to helping voters to be able to cast their contracts. That is why in April I announced a number of ballots in a way that also protects the integrity of the measures to help achieve that and have recently met the wider system. Let us never forget that that is not only an Government’s strategic suppliers and Ministers in several individual advantage, but in the collective interest. Departments to ensure that those measures are delivered. James Morris: Following the recent trials in this year’s James Duddridge: I thank the Minister for that reply. local elections, the Minister will be aware that local Specifically,how will coastal towns such as Southend-on-Sea authorities such as Woking recorded a 99.7% success benefit from the changes in this procurement procedure? rate on voters bringing the correct ID. Does she agree that that demonstrates that we should consider rolling Oliver Dowden: As my hon. Friend will know, small this out further to secure the integrity of the ballot? businesses generate more than 16 million jobs and we are determined to level the playing field so that those in Chloe Smith: What my hon. Friend says is absolutely coastal towns such as Southend get their fair share of the case. The measures that we piloted at the local prosperity and win Government contracts. I encourage elections just past were reasonable and proportionate businesses in Southend to look on Contracts Finder, on and have been shown to have worked. Furthermore, which more than 17,000 small businesses are already other countries already do this without problem. The registered, for procurement opportunities. overwhelming majority of people were able to cast their votes in these pilots without any issue. I look forward to Chris Davies: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is considering the best next steps, informed by those pilots. vital that we have a vibrant and mixed group of suppliers and small businesses from all corners of the UK, including Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): What problems Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and that they were there with the pilots? should all be considered equally in the procurement process? Chloe Smith: I am sure that the Electoral Commission will provide those who look for problems with a little bit Oliver Dowden: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. of data to chew on, but the point is this: it seems to me It is crucial to ensure that we have a diverse supplier that the Labour party is looking for problems. Actually, base. We have made a number of changes to the most voters regard this as a reasonable and sensible step Government procurement processes to assist small that protects our democracy. businesses, including requiring prime contractors to advertise subcontracting opportunities on the Government Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): Contracts Finder. We also divide contracts into separate We agree about the importance of preventing voter lots, including by region, when that makes commercial fraud and other electoral malpractice.