Wednesday Volume 643 27 June 2018 No. 161

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 27 June 2018 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2018 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 873 27 JUNE 2018 874

in his own inimitable and mildly eccentric way, and we House of Commons are grateful to him for doing so. Let us have a question that is in order. Wednesday 27 June 2018 Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): On a serious point, many of my constituents were affected by the The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock collapse of Carillion. How confident is the Minister that the big four accountancy firms have learnt their PRAYERS lessons for the future? Mr Lidington: Clearly, criticisms have been made of [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] the major accountancy firms by Select Committees of this House and others. The appropriate financial services regulator keeps this under review, and it is for the Oral Answers to Questions regulator to decide what, if any, steps to take. Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): With 2,300 jobs down the pan and the taxpayer paying £148 million to CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF clean up the Carillion fiasco, how can the Minister give LANCASTER AND MINISTER FOR THE such complacent responses on value for money? Will he CABINET OFFICE now admit that earlier Front-Bench assurances from those on his side of the House that the burden of Carillion’s collapse would not fall on the taxpayer have The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister turned out to be incorrect? for the Cabinet Office was asked— Mr Lidington: No, I would not accept that at all. We Outsourcing: Value for Money have said from the start that our priority has been to keep public services running. We have paid the costs of 1. Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): What the official receiver to enable the contracted operations recent assessment he has made of the value for money to continue; the schools have been cleaned, and the of outsourcing public services. [906085] meals have been served in schools and hospitals, by those providers. It is the lenders, directors and shareholders The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister in Carillion who have taken the big financial hit, and for the Cabinet Office (Mr David Lidington): Recent rightly so. business cases submitted by Departments for approval show savings to taxpayers from outsourcing in the Jon Trickett: The fact of the matter is that the Minister range of 9% to 30%. has admitted that £150 million has been paid to the liquidators. We see that his commitment to value for Afzal Khan: A recent Public Accounts Committee money has no credibility when we consider that only report found that after more than 25 years the Treasury one civil servant is monitoring 700 taxpayer-funded still has no data on whether the private finance initiative contracts, with £60 billion in assets. The Government model provides value for money.People in my constituency are sleepwalking from one outsourcing disaster to the are concerned about back-door privatisation and the next. Will he now accept the widespread public view kinds of PFI contract often used in hospitals, which that he should abandon his obsession with outsourcing? leave staff in the dark, not knowing about the security of their jobs. Will the Minister review PFI contracts Mr Lidington: The report by the Select Committee on and privatisation across all Departments in the light of Work and Pensions and the Select Committee on Business, the PAC report’s findings? Energy and Industrial Strategy concluded that the directors, not the Government, were responsible for the fact that Mr Lidington: Let us consider this: Carillion failed and that the Government had made a “It simply would not have been possible to build or refurbish competent job of clearing up the mess. I refer the hon. such a number of schools and hospitals without using the PFI Gentleman again to the fact that independent research model.”—[Official Report, 14 November 2007; Vol. 467, c. 665.] commissioned by the last Labour Government showed Those are not my words, but those of Gordon Brown, savings to taxpayers of, on average, between 20% and the last Labour Prime Minister. 30% from outsourcing, compared with undertaking tasks in house. That is money that can go back into Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con): My right frontline public services. hon. Friend might be aware of a petition in Gibraltar for it to have an MP elected to our Parliament. The Voter ID Pilots petition now has close to 10,000 signatures, which is almost half the electorate of the rock. Will he therefore 2. Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): Whether he consider backing my private Member’s Bill to give has made an assessment of the operation of recent Gibraltar the option of electing an MP to this place and voter ID pilots; and if he will make a statement. reward Gibraltarians for their unwavering loyalty? [906086]

Mr Speaker: That is an extreme case of shoehorning 7. James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): in a particular concern, but it suffers from the disadvantage Whether he has made an assessment of the operation of of bearing absolutely no relation to the question on the recent voter ID pilots; and if he will make a statement. Order Paper. The hon. Gentleman has made his point [906091] 875 Oral Answers 27 JUNE 2018 Oral Answers 876

The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chloe 10. Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con): Smith): We are encouraged by the data from the returning What steps his Department is taking to encourage the officers and the statements they have made indicating use of small businesses in Government procurement. that the pilots were a successful test of the implementation [906094] of voter ID. The Electoral Commission will publish its evaluation in July and the Cabinet Office will conclude 11. Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): its own evaluation at the same time. What steps his Department is taking to encourage the use of small businesses in Government procurement. Adam Holloway: Does the Minister agree that additional [906095] measures should be brought in, given that the issue affects the vulnerable, the elderly and, in my constituency, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Oliver ethnic minorities? Dowden): Small businesses are the backbone of our economy, and we are determined to continue to level Chloe Smith: I welcome my hon. Friend’s commitment, the playing field so that they can compete for Government which I share, to helping voters to be able to cast their contracts. That is why in April I announced a number of ballots in a way that also protects the integrity of the measures to help achieve that and have recently met the wider system. Let us never forget that that is not only an Government’s strategic suppliers and Ministers in several individual advantage, but in the collective interest. Departments to ensure that those measures are delivered.

James Morris: Following the recent trials in this year’s James Duddridge: I thank the Minister for that reply. local elections, the Minister will be aware that local Specifically,how will coastal towns such as Southend-on-Sea authorities such as Woking recorded a 99.7% success benefit from the changes in this procurement procedure? rate on voters bringing the correct ID. Does she agree that that demonstrates that we should consider rolling Oliver Dowden: As my hon. Friend will know, small this out further to secure the integrity of the ballot? businesses generate more than 16 million jobs and we are determined to level the playing field so that those in Chloe Smith: What my hon. Friend says is absolutely coastal towns such as Southend get their fair share of the case. The measures that we piloted at the local prosperity and win Government contracts. I encourage elections just past were reasonable and proportionate businesses in Southend to look on Contracts Finder, on and have been shown to have worked. Furthermore, which more than 17,000 small businesses are already other countries already do this without problem. The registered, for procurement opportunities. overwhelming majority of people were able to cast their votes in these pilots without any issue. I look forward to Chris Davies: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is considering the best next steps, informed by those pilots. vital that we have a vibrant and mixed group of suppliers and small businesses from all corners of the UK, including Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): What problems Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and that they were there with the pilots? should all be considered equally in the procurement process? Chloe Smith: I am sure that the Electoral Commission will provide those who look for problems with a little bit Oliver Dowden: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. of data to chew on, but the point is this: it seems to me It is crucial to ensure that we have a diverse supplier that the Labour party is looking for problems. Actually, base. We have made a number of changes to the most voters regard this as a reasonable and sensible step Government procurement processes to assist small that protects our democracy. businesses, including requiring prime contractors to advertise subcontracting opportunities on the Government Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): Contracts Finder. We also divide contracts into separate We agree about the importance of preventing voter lots, including by region, when that makes commercial fraud and other electoral malpractice. The Electoral sense. Commission ruled that Leave.EU breached spending limits and other rules, fined the organisation and reported Bim Afolami: I thank the Minister for his responses. its responsible person to the police. What steps are the As seen from my recent work on the Public Accounts Government taking to address that and how will the Committee, there sometimes appears to be a conflict Minister ensure that the issue of cheating in the Brexit between large strategic suppliers who see themselves as referendum is pursued? aggregators of several procurement contracts for small business and other instances in which small businesses Chloe Smith: As you will know, Mr Speaker, given would like to get certain contracts directly from your role in connection with it, the Electoral Commission Government. Will he explain the Government’s thinking is an independent body. I am not able to respond at this on how to balance those two approaches? point to questions about investigations that it is undertaking. Oliver Dowden: We already require buying authorities to disaggregate contracts so that small and medium-sized Government Procurement: Small Businesses enterprises can compete. However, there will, of course, be contracts in which disaggregation would affect value 3. James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) for money. That is why we recently announced that (Con): What steps his Department is taking to encourage when large contractors are successful, they will be required the use of small businesses in Government procurement. to advertise those subcontracting opportunities on [906087] Contracts Finder, so that small businesses can bid. 877 Oral Answers 27 JUNE 2018 Oral Answers 878

Julie Cooper (Burnley) (Lab): What assessment has more opportunity to debate the Government’s redrawing the Minister made of the cost implications where outsourced of the devolution settlement than any elected Member contracts have been overturned by the High Court from Scotland? because of incompetent procurement processes? I refer specifically to the expensive mess created by Conservative- Chloe Smith: As you will know, Mr Speaker, because controlled Lancashire County Council in connection you spent many hours in the Chair, we spent several with a Virgin contract for children’s services. hundred hours debating the Bill. I am proud that it has attained Royal Assent. I think we can all agree that that Oliver Dowden: As the hon. Lady will know, the will provide greater certainty to businesses and citizens Cabinet Office has extensive processes to ensure successful as we exit the EU. It is a shame that the Scottish procuring. If she is questioning the overall purpose of National party seems not to be interested in that. procuring, I refer her to the comments made earlier by my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Ind): Does the Minister Office. In addition, research shows that public authorities agree that the House of Lords would be vastly improved save at least 11% by contracting out services. That if it was smaller and democratic? means more money for health and education. Chloe Smith: I echo what my right hon. Friend the Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Prime Minister said about the role we see for the House The Minister referred to small businesses as the backbone of Lords: it should continue as a scrutinising Chamber of our economy. What plans does he have over this but respect the primacy of the Commons, which certainly Parliament to strengthen that backbone and increase is the democratically elected Chamber. targets in terms of accessibility of procurement for small businesses? David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Does the Minister really think that next week’s by-election, with 31 electors who Oliver Dowden: The hon. Gentleman raises an important are the children and grandchildren of people who got point. In the previous Parliament, we set and met a there illegitimately, is, in a modern democracy, the right target of 25% of all Government procurement going to way to elect Members of Parliament in another place? small businesses. We set a challenging target in this Parliament of a third of all procurement going to small Chloe Smith: The right hon. Gentleman is an experienced businesses. I am taking a number of steps to help us to Labour Member of Parliament, so he might recall that try to achieve that. Labour had a hand in the legislation that guides this process. He will also recall that the Conservative party 6. [906090] Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Thirty won the general election on a manifesto that said it thousand Carillion suppliers are owed £2 billion in would not prioritise reform of the House of Lords. unpaid invoices. When will Ministers enforce the prompt payment rules for Government contracts and stand up Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): Never mind the for small businesses, or is the reality that under this House of Lords. When are we going to see this House Prime Minister the Conservatives really are the anti-business reduced to 600? party? Mr Speaker: It is all very well the hon. Gentleman Oliver Dowden: Weare absolutely committed to prompt breezily declaring, “Never mind about the House of payment. That is why the Government pay over 96% of Lords.” The question, inconveniently for him, is focused their suppliers within 30 days. In respect of application on the House of Lords. Generosity gets the better of to contracting, I have just announced a consultation to me, however, and I am itching to hear the ministerial ensure we can exclude contractors if they fail to pay reply. small businesses on time. Chloe Smith: Mr Speaker, I think the simplest answer House of Lords is that the Boundary Commission will return with its proposals shortly and the House will have the pleasure 4. Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP): of looking at them. When the Government plan to respond to the report of the Lord Speaker’s Committee on the size of the House Senior Public Appointments: Widening Access of Lords. [906088] 5. Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): What The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chloe steps he is taking to widen access to senior public Smith): The Prime Minister responded to the Lord appointments. [906089] Speaker’s Committee on 20 February. In her response, she committed to do her bit to address the size of the 13. Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): What steps he is House of Lords by continuing the restrained approach taking to widen access to senior public appointments. she has so far shown to appointments. [906098]

Martyn Day: Thanks to the Minister’s actions during The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Oliver the debate here on the EU (Withdrawal) Bill, the couple Dowden): We want to ensure that public boards represent of minutes that Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town had the people they serve. That is why in December we on devolution was more time than all the devolved MPs launched our diversity action plan, which committed to got collectively. Does the Minister think it acceptable 50% women and 14% ethnic minority representation by that unelected Members of the House of Lords had 2020. Just last month, I appointed Lord Christopher 879 Oral Answers 27 JUNE 2018 Oral Answers 880

Holmes to undertake a review of removing barriers that clear that political activity is neither a judgment of disabled people might face when applying for public merit nor a bar to becoming a political appointee. If he appointments. looks at the statistics, he will see that of 1,000 candidates in the past year—2016-17—4.9% were Conservative Vicky Foxcroft: What proportion of appointments and 4.8% were Labour. made to public bodies are people from working-class backgrounds and what proportion went to private school? National Democracy Week Oliver Dowden: The hon. Lady raises a very important point about our making sure that public appointments 8. Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con): reflect the country as a whole. That is why we have What plans he has to mark National Democracy Week. taken a number of measures to increase diversity based [906092] on the Bridge report recommendations. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chloe Chris Elmore: I am sure that the Minister agrees that Smith): National Democracy Week begins on Monday we have a huge amount of talent for public appointments, and events will take place across the United Kingdom, including in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, so encouraging everyone to get involved in our democracy. will he set out what he is doing to ensure that regional I thank those partners who are helping particularly to voices are heard around senior public appointments? make sure that we reach under-registered groups. I hope that Members across the House will support it. Oliver Dowden: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Diversity means not just ethnic diversity or gender Luke Graham: National Democracy Week is about diversity, but regional diversity. That is why, for example, encouraging people to be active British citizens. What we recently held an event in Glasgow to encourage steps have been taken to extend the National Citizen people in Scotland to apply for public appointments. Service to Scotland, so that my constituents can have the same opportunities as others throughout the United Sir Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): Kingdom? One way in which we could widen public appointments is to limit the amount of them to just two per person, Chloe Smith: I welcome my hon. Friend’s enthusiasm instead of the gravy train that seems to appear as far as for National Democracy Week and for the National public appointments are concerned. Citizen Service. Funding is available for the devolved Administrations to deliver the NCS, although the decision Oliver Dowden: As ever, my right hon. Friend is is a matter for them. As a proud Unionist like him, I absolutely correct, and I take on board his recommendation. would like to see young people across the United Kingdom Diversity also means ensuring that we do not have the benefiting from it. same old faces constantly applying for and succeeding in winning public appointments. That is why, as part of our diversity measures, we are encouraging a wider Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): I am just array of people to apply for public appointments. wondering how the Government can, with a straight face, celebrate something called National Democracy Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con): Does my hon. Friend Week when they are completely undermining democracy think that online abuse acts as a deterrent to people in this country by passing laws without the consent of putting themselves forward not just for elected office, the Scottish Parliament, ripping up the Sewel convention but for public appointments? Does he also agree that and fundamentally undermining devolution. such abuse should be dealt with robustly and that we all have a responsibility to call it out? Chloe Smith: There was not a question in that, but none the less, the hon. Gentleman is wrong. This Oliver Dowden: Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely Government believe fundamentally in the treatment right, and we will be launching a consultation shortly to that our House of Commons has given to the European deal with exactly that point. Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which will now serve our country, in leaving the European Union, with certainty Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): Edward for businesses and citizens. Timpson was appointed chair of the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service and of the Mr Speaker: I think a fair interpretation is that it was new Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel. Andrew a rhetorical question, which is not entirely without Tyrie has been appointed chair of the Competition and precedent in the history of the House of Commons. Markets Authority. Baroness Stowell was appointed chair of the Charity Commission. They are all probably Voter ID Pilots worthy appointments individually, but a clear pattern is emerging, so will the Minister confirm that the main criteria now for senior public appointments is that 9. Mr Paul Sweeney (Glasgow North East) (Lab/Co-op): someone has to be a former Tory MP or Cabinet What representations he has received on the legality of Minister? the voter ID pilots. [906093]

Oliver Dowden: As ever, the hon. Gentleman makes a 12. Laura Smith (Crewe and Nantwich) (Lab): What rhetorical flourish. Sadly, the facts just do not bear it representations he has received on the legality of the out. The Government’s code for public appointments is voter ID pilots. [906097] 881 Oral Answers 27 JUNE 2018 Oral Answers 882

14. Danielle Rowley (Midlothian) (Lab): What Topical Questions representations he has received on the legality of the voter ID pilots. [906099] T1. [906100] Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith): My Department has not received any representations about the legality of the pilots. The The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister powers to make the pilot scheme orders are in section 10 for the Cabinet Office (Mr David Lidington): The private of the Representation of the People Act 2000, which sector has a vital role to play in delivering public was, of course, passed by Parliament. Those powers services and is something that this Government will enable changes to be made to rules regarding the conduct continue to champion. Earlier this week, I announced of any local elections in England and Wales. new measures in the wake of the collapse of Carillion to promote and deepen responsible capitalism, whereby Mr Sweeney: At the last general election, my constituency everyone plays by the same rules and businesses recognise had the lowest turnout in the UK, and it also has a low their duties and obligations to wider society. That is in registration rate. What kind of democracy are we living line with the Government’s commitment to deliver an in when the Government actively pursue a scheme that economy that works for everyone. results in people being denied the vote, as was shown by the pilot in May, instead of seeking better engagement Mr Hepburn: As Carillion showed, the outsourcing and participation in our democracy by potential voters? of Government contracts is nothing but a gamble with jobs and public money. When will the Tories put the Chloe Smith: The hon. Gentleman will have just public interest first instead of their friends, spivs and heard me setting out measures to encourage more people speculators? to be involved in our democracy. He knows, as I hope does every Opposition Member, that there is a point of Mr Lidington: The collapse of Carillion has shown principle at stake here. Do we defend our system from that outsourcing genuinely transfers risk from taxpayers fraud or do we not? to shareholders, directors and lenders—to the private sector company. Laura Smith: Two barristers have concluded that there is no provision in the Representation of the People T2. [906101] Johnny Mercer (Plymouth, Moor View) (Con): Act to introduce schemes by secondary legislation that What work has the Cabinet Office done to ensure that restrict or discourage voting, and that the scheme is Departments have the skills and people required to therefore beyond the scope of the law. Can the Minister deliver a successful exit from the European Union? reassure the House that she acted within the law?

Chloe Smith: Yes, I can. I can also reassure those The Minister without Portfolio (Brandon Lewis): My listening that this is clearly a series of Labour Whips’ hon. Friend is right to ask that question. We are focused handout questions. on ensuring that we deliver a successful and positive exit from the European Union. The Cabinet Office works Laura Smith indicated dissent. closely with colleagues in the Department for Exiting the European Union and other Departments to ensure that all those places are professionally filled. I can Chloe Smith: The Labour party might like to reflect confirm that, as of the end of March 2018, some on the fact that it was its 2000 Act that allowed the 5,500 staff have been recruited to the Departments pilots to be run. most affected. Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Laura Smith) is signalling that that was very much her T6. [906105] Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): own question. It has to be said that Whips’ handouts Further to the question about outsourcing, can the are also not unprecedented in the House, but she is keen Minister— to draw attention to her own independent mindedness on this important matter. Mr Speaker: We empathise with the hon. Gentleman. It is okay; maybe some lozenge will be provided, or Danielle Rowley: I recently spoke at an event at some water. Please, let us hear the question. Newbattle Abbey College in my constituency about encouraging people to vote—no Whips were in attendance. Mr Cunningham: Can the Minister give us some Meanwhile, the Government’s voter ID pilots saw at examples? least 340 people turned away, and many more would have been discouraged from voting. Is this not a slap in Mr Speaker: Was that heard? I apologise to the hon. the face of people who are working hard to encourage Gentleman, but I think we may have to ask someone people to vote? else to ask his question for him. Chloe Smith: To be clear, that was 340 out of a total of more than 230,000. I also want to be clear on the Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): Can the Minister matter of principle. The Labour party accepts this give us some examples? principle for its own selection meetings, where it routinely asks for ID from members. Is this good enough for Mr Speaker: We are grateful to the hon. Lady, and we Labour but not for the rest of the country? wish the hon. Gentleman well. 883 Oral Answers 27 JUNE 2018 Oral Answers 884

Mr Lidington: I take it that the hon. Gentleman, T5. [906104] Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) through the hon. Lady, was asking for examples of (Con): What recent discussions has my hon. Friend had successful outsourcing. I refer him to the outsourcing of with Cabinet colleagues about the cost to the taxpayer the teachers’pension scheme, which has cut administrative of public sector workers’ taking trade union facility costs by nearly half, to the benefit of pension scheme time? members. Oliver Dowden: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. T3. [906102] Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): What For too long, unions in the public sector have received progress has my hon. Friend made in allowing the Jain taxpayer funding for an activity that is inadequately community to declare their religion in the new census, controlled and poor value for money, which is why we and will she agree to meet a delegation from the community? are introducing transparency in respect of facility time. We believe that proper management could save our The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chloe taxpayers up to £100 million. Smith): Yes, and I look forward to that meeting. Since the response to consultation on the matter in May 2016, Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): the Office for National Statistics has continued to consult The anniversary of the Prime Minister’s announcement stakeholders, and has met the members of the all-party of a public inquiry into contaminated blood is fast group on Jainism. It is considering all the evidence approaching. Can we expect a statement in the House provided, and will finalise its recommendations shortly. to say that the terms of reference have finally been agreed and the public inquiry can get on with its work? T7. [906106] Faisal Rashid (Warrington South) (Lab): Will the Minister please explain how the Government Mr Lidington: I am acutely aware of that anniversary justify wasting time and taxpayers’ money on the date, and the justifiable expectations of survivors of “testing and scrutiny” of contractual arrangements, that tragedy. I have sent the draft terms of reference only to ignore their own highest possible risk rating for proposed by the chair of the inquiry to the devolved Capita and award it the fire and rescue contract? Administrations, as I am obliged to do. I hope that I can announce the full details as rapidly as possible. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Oliver Dowden): As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Cabinet T8. [906107] Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): What Office has extensive functions to ensure that we award reassurance can my hon. Friend give that Departments contracts only to companies that offer the very best will work together to deliver our ambitious plans to value, and that was exactly the case in that instance. create more jobs and prosperity in Weymouth and on the Isle of Portland in the years ahead?

Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con) Oliver Dowden: Departments across the Government rose— are committed to working with local partners in Weymouth and Portland to build jobs and prosperity. In July, Mr Speaker: Ah, yes, a south-east London knight. Sir representatives of a range of Departments will visit David Evennett. local partners to see for themselves the enormous opportunities that exist in the area, and to identify how T4. [906103] Sir David Evennett: What progress is the Government policies and programmes could help to Department making in implementing the findings of support their ambitions. the race disparity audit?

Mr Lidington: The Government have committed themselves to explaining or changing ethnic disparities PRIME MINISTER highlighted by the audit. We have already announced action on criminal justice, employment support, school exclusions and youth unemployment, and we continue The Prime Minister was asked— to talk to a range of stakeholders to take that work further. Engagements

Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) Q1. [906070] Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): (LD): You will recall, Mr Speaker, that representatives If she will list her official engagements for Wednesday of Wick High School were here last week—thank you 27 June. for your kind remarks about them. Does the Minister agree that bringing schools the length and breadth of The Prime Minister (Mrs Theresa May): This week is Britain, including my faraway constituency, to the House Armed Forces Week, and I know that Members from will do much for learning about democracy here in the across the House will attend events on Saturday to mother of Parliaments? celebrate Armed Forces Day. This will provide an opportunity to recognise the source of pride and inspiration Chloe Smith: Yes. I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s that our serving men and women are to us. Today is also constituents to this place. I hope that they will find Reserves Day, and I pay tribute to reservists, including things of interest to them during National Democracy hon. Members, for the integral and vital role that they Week, and that the resource packs that are available play in maintaining this country’s security here and to all parliamentarians will enable them to make the overseas, balancing their civilian lives alongside their most of it. military careers. 885 Oral Answers 27 JUNE 2018 Oral Answers 886

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues Jeremy Corbyn: I take the Prime Minister’s response and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall as a thumbs-down to the Foreign Secretary. have further such meetings later today. In recent days, an unprecedented number of concerns have been raised by trade unions, business and even Helen Goodman: The Prime Minister is right: we all some Cabinet Ministers. Today the CBI director general celebrate the huge contribution our armed forces and said: reserves make. “Facts ignored today mean jobs lost tomorrow.” Last year the Prime Minister promised that no school Airbus supports 110,000 jobs in the UK supply chain, would see a cut in its budget, yet half the schools in many of which are very highly skilled, well paid and Bishop Auckland continue to face real cuts, some of unionised. The company says that no deal more than £1,000 per child. Does she not understand “would force Airbus to reconsider its footprint in the country, its the damage this does to children’s life chances? investments” and its The Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady knows, we are “dependency on the UK.” putting extra funding into schools. We are making extra Can the Prime Minister reassure thousands of workers money available for schools, and the fairer national today, and take the phoney threat of no deal off the funding formula that we have introduced is ensuring negotiating table? that some of the schools that have previously been among the worst funded in this country are seeing The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman has increases in their funding to help to redress the balance. raised the question of Airbus. If he is so concerned about our aerospace and aviation industry, why did he not back the expansion of Heathrow in this Chamber? Q3. [906072] Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): As a former Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs [Interruption.] Committee, may I ask the Prime Minister whether, Mr Speaker: Order. [Interruption.] Order. Mr Snell, given the unresolved issues that remain in Northern calm yourself. Acquire the quality of an aspiring Ireland, she has any plans to visit the Province in the statesperson. Calm! The question has been asked, and near future? the answer from the Prime Minister must, and will, be heard. The Prime Minister: We are considering a number of issues in relation to Northern Ireland at the moment, in The Prime Minister: I do not normally agree with the the context of both Brexit and the devolved Administration. secretary general of Unite, but on this occasion I actually We hope that the Administration and the Assembly will do agree with him, because he says that backing the get back up and running. I can say to my hon. Friend expansion—the third runway—at Heathrow would ensure that I hope to visit Northern Ireland in the next few that our country weeks. “remains a world leader in aviation and aerospace”. Jeremy Corbyn: Well, the Foreign Secretary did not Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I join the back it either, but in his own way, he was helping the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Armed Forces Day aviation industry: by spending 14 hours in a plane for a and Reserves Day. I hope that we also recognise that we 10-minute meeting in Afghanistan. need to do far more to address veterans’ housing and health needs. The Government are not threatening the EU with their ridiculous position; they are threatening skilled I also pay tribute to the firefighters tackling the blaze jobs in this country.But at least one Government Minister on Saddleworth moor. I am sure all our thoughts are understands this: the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, with them, and their communities and families, and my the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb). He has hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde asked this question, which I think is about the Health (Jonathan Reynolds) is there today to support them. and Foreign Secretaries: On Brexit, the Business Secretary believes that business “Do the leadership aspirations of multi-millionaires trump the “is entitled to be listened to with respect.”—[Official Report, need to listen to the employers and employees of this country?” 25 June 2018; Vol. 643, c. 609.] Well, apparently they do. The head of BMW,which directly I am sorry to see that the Foreign Secretary is not with employs more than 8,000 workers—that is 8,000 jobs—in us today. He takes a very different view, using an this country, has said that he needs to know the Anglo-Saxon term to make his point. Which is the Government’s plans for customs. He says: Prime Minister’s view? “If we don’t get clarity in the next couple of months we have to start making those contingency plans”—[Interruption.] The Prime Minister: This party and this Government Mr Speaker: Order. The Prime Minister was heard. have always backed business and we will continue to No concerted attempt from either side of this House to back business. And we back business because it is shout a Member down will ever succeed. However long businesses that create millions of jobs for people in our it takes, the Prime Minister will be heard and the country and provide billions of pounds in tax that we Leader of the Opposition will be heard. Get the message. can spend on our public services; and because it is businesses that are the backbone of our prosperity. I say Jeremy Corbyn: The noise of people hiding behind to the right hon. Gentleman that if he wants to start the Gallery is interesting, Mr Speaker. I am asking talking in favourable terms about business, he has a the Prime Minister how many more firms are telling decision to make. He can either back business or he can her in private what Airbus and BMW are now saying want to overthrow capitalism; he cannot do both. very publicly. 887 Oral Answers 27 JUNE 2018 Oral Answers 888

The Prime Minister: We have been meeting with with the European Union and the ability for us to business and we are listening to business. That is why we negotiate trade deals around the rest of the world. That are very clear on our customs arrangement that we is what we should be looking for. It is what we are doing want to ensure not just that we deliver on our commitment as a Government. The right hon. Gentleman says that in Northern Ireland, with trade as frictionless as possible, the Labour party’s interest is in delivering jobs. Why is it but that we can trade around the rest of the world. If we then that every Labour Government leave office with are talking about Government plans for business, it is more people out of work than when they went in? this Government who have brought the deficit down and it is this Government who are seeing employment Jeremy Corbyn: Coming from a Prime Minister who at record levels. What would Labour’s three-point plan presides over an economy in which 1 million people are for business be? A 7% rise in corporation tax, nationalisation on zero-hours contracts, that is very rich. She rules out without compensation and a run on the pound. That is a customs union, the Leader of the House rules out the not backing business; it is a plan to break Britain. Prime Minister’s preferred option and reality rules out a maximum facilitation model. That leaves only no deal, Jeremy Corbyn: It is very interesting that even those which she refuses to rule out. She is putting jobs at risk. Brexiteers who have made Brexit their life’s work are Sadly, it is not those of the warring egos in her Cabinet— concerned about their own financial interests. The hon. they have now been rewarded with an invite to a pyjama Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg), for party at Chequers. Meanwhile, thousands of skilled example, is relocating his hedge fund to the eurozone, manufacturing jobs and the future of whole industries and the right hon. Member for Wokingham (John in Britain are at stake. The Prime Minister continues to Redwood) is advising his clients to disinvest in Britain. promote the fallacy that no deal is better than a bad Meanwhile, in the real world, Andrew, who works for deal. No deal is a bad deal. Is not the truth that real Honda in Swindon, wrote to me—[Laughter.] I would jobs—[Interruption.] not laugh if I were you. These are real people with real jobs and real concerns. Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman. I will say it again: there is unlimited time— Andrew writes: [Interruption.] Order. There is unlimited time as far as I “I have seen nothing that gives me confidence that the government am concerned. [Interruption.] Order. The questions is going to deliver a trade agreement allowing the seamless flow of will be heard and the answers will be heard, and nothing goods through Europe’s borders. My job along with many others in manufacturing, suppliers and the supply chain hang on this”. and no one will stop that happening. It is as simple and unmistakable and clear as that. So will the Prime Minister ignore her Foreign Secretary, listen to workers, and secure an agreement that safeguards Jeremy Corbyn: Thank you, Mr Speaker. jobs in this country? No deal is a bad deal, but is not the truth that the real risk to jobs in our country is a Prime Minister who is The Prime Minister: We are putting jobs at the heart having to negotiate round the clock with her own Cabinet of what we do in relation to Brexit. We are putting jobs to stop it falling apart rather than negotiating to defend at the heart of what we do as a Government through the jobs of workers in this country? our modern industrial strategy and we are ensuring that, when we deliver Brexit, we deliver a Brexit that is The Prime Minister: I will tell the right hon. Gentleman good for our economy, good for jobs and good for what I and this Government are delivering. We are people up and down this country. delivering a successor to Trident; stamp duty slashed Through most of his career, the right hon. Gentleman for first-time buyers; a modern industrial strategy for has been rather a Brexiteer himself. Why is it then that jobs and growth; action on childhood obesity; 1.9 million at every stage he and the Labour party are trying to more children in good or outstanding schools; fairer frustrate Brexit in this House? schools funding; new technical education; improved mental health services; expansion of Heathrow; record Jeremy Corbyn: The Labour party’spriority is defending levels of employment—record levels of employment; jobs in this country. I doubt that Andrew from Swindon falling borrowing; and rising real wages. Wehave triggered is alone among skilled workers when he goes on to say: article 50, we have agreed an implementation period “I will hold the Prime Minister and her party culpable if my and we have passed the EU (Withdrawal) Bill: a Britain job and those of my colleagues at Honda end up being under fit for the future and leaving the European Union on threat.” 29 March 2019. The Cabinet was split in two apparently on options for future customs arrangements with the EU. The Q5. [906074] Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): Last weekend Prime Minister’s preferred option was a customs I attended celebrations marking 70 years of production partnership. We have had no official feedback on that of the great British Land Rover. Will the Prime Minister working party, so did the Leader of the House speak for join me in congratulating the workers of Solihull, commit the Government when she said on Monday: to securing post-Brexit global trade deals and recognise that new clean diesel engines have a role to play for “I think the customs partnership looks quite bureaucratic and years to come? unwieldy”? Is that option now ruled out as well? The Prime Minister: First of all, I congratulate all the workers at British Land Rover on 70 years of production. The Prime Minister: As I have made clear on a My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Leaving the European number of occasions in the House, we are looking at Union gives us an opportunity to be in a position to both options in relation to customs because we want to conduct our own trade policy and to sign our own trade ensure that we deliver as frictionless trade as possible agreements with countries around the world. 889 Oral Answers 27 JUNE 2018 Oral Answers 890

My hon. Friend raises a specific point about cleaner London Tech Week, creating another 1,600 jobs, and I diesel engines, which can play an important part in could give him more examples. If he wants to listen to reducing CO2 emissions from road transport and could business, he should listen to Scottish business, because reduce CO2 emissions further while meeting ever more its message is very clear: stay in the United Kingdom. stringent air quality standards during the transition to zero-emissions vehicles. This country is leading on the Q7. [906076] James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley issue of zero-emissions vehicles, and Land Rover is Regis) (Con): Fresh from my success in managing to playing its part. stagger over the line in the recent London marathon, I will be running a 10k road race as part of the Black Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): I country fun run in Halesowen this Sunday. The event commend the armed forces and our reservists for the has raised thousands of pounds for local charities in my fine job they do for our country. constituency.Will the Prime Minister thank the organisers, Airbus, Honda, BMW, the CBI, the TUC and the particularly Alan Bowler and the Halesowen and Rowley Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders—this Regis rotary club, for the work that they have put into Government have completely failed to listen to business, the event, and will she offer her congratulations to those have insulted the business community and have left participating in the race on Sunday? companies in the dark. Can the Prime Minister tell the House why 186,000 car manufacturing jobs are disposable The Prime Minister: First, I congratulate my hon. to her? Friend for completing the London marathon earlier this year and, I know, raising money for a very worthy The Prime Minister: Wehave been consistently listening local cause. I am happy to join him in wishing Alan to business throughout the negotiations so far. Business Bowler, the Halesowen and Rowley Regis rotary club, said it wants us to give priority to EU citizens’ rights and all those taking part in Sunday’s fun run the very here in the UK, and we did just that. Business said it best of luck. They are doing it for good causes and we wants an implementation period so there is not a congratulate them and wish them well. cliff edge next March, and we have negotiated an implementation period so there will be a smooth and Q2. [906071] Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and orderly Brexit. Business said it wants as frictionless Devonport) (Lab/Co-op): The Prime Minister will trade as possible, so we are putting forward proposals know that we still have every nuclear submarine that to ensure we provide that frictionless trade with the the Royal Navy has ever had. There are 13 old European Union. nuclear submarines tied up in Devonport, seven in Alongside that, we will be developing a global Britain, Rosyth, and little room for the ones that will come out looking out around the world and signing trade deals of service soon. Further to our letter to her a fortnight around the world. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks ago, will the Prime Minister agree to meet me, the hon. trade and business is so important, why did he not Member for Copeland (Trudy Harrison) and the hon. support Heathrow expansion? Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Douglas Chapman), who represents Rosyth, to discuss how we can extend civil nuclear decommissioning to those Ian Blackford: Not for the first time, the Prime Minister nuclear submarines, to ensure that we recycle them and has failed to answer the question, and the cost is that create jobs in Plymouth, Scotland and west Cumbria? investment in Britain is being turned off by a Government who refuse to listen. More than a year ago, the Scottish The Prime Minister: We take the issue of the safe Government presented a plan for the United Kingdom storage and disposal of nuclear submarines very seriously to remain in the single market and the customs union to indeed. There is capacity for safely storing all remaining give certainty to business. Just this week, Scotland’s operational Trafalgar-class submarines at Devonport First Minister took a trade delegation from Scotland to following their decommissioning, and work has started Berlin. on the dismantling of the first submarine, Swiftsure, Every step of the way, the Scottish Government have with more than 50 tonnes of radioactive waste having been seeking to protect jobs and our economic interests. been removed by the end of May. I believe that the hon. Two years on from the EU referendum, and with the Gentleman and other Members have written to me clock ticking down, the Prime Minister has done nothing about this issue; I will respond to him in further detail but increase uncertainty.Has she completed any economic in due course and ask the relevant Minister to meet him analysis of jobs and the economy were the UK to stay to discuss the issue further. in the single market and the customs union? If not, why not? Q8. [906077] Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con): Last week, I met three students at the Spires College in Torquay who The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman talks have been working on the Send My Friend to School about investment into the United Kingdom. Last year, campaign to make schools safe. Will the Prime Minister the United Kingdom remained the preferred country say what action the UK will be taking to ensure that the for foreign direct investment in Europe. Last year we safe schools declaration makes a real difference to children saw 76,000 jobs being created as a result of foreign who otherwise might not be able to access education? investment here in the United Kingdom, more than in the previous year. The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for If the right hon. Gentleman wants to talk about raising that important issue. We know that conflict is a further confidence from business, he should just look at key driver of educational exclusion. Our education in the fact that this month we have seen £2.3 billion of emergencies work supports greater community awareness investment announced by the tech industry as part of of how to protect children in education, by teaching 891 Oral Answers 27 JUNE 2018 Oral Answers 892 students and teachers about peacebuilding and strategies The Prime Minister: Anti-Muslim discrimination is for conflict resolution. We view compliance with wrong. There is no place for it in our society. That is international humanitarian law as the primary basis to why, when I was Home Secretary, I required the police protect schools and educational facilities. We are also specifically to record anti-Muslim hate crime so that we encouraging international partners to endorse the could understand better what was happening and better declaration, most recently Germany, which signed up tackle the issue. We have introduced a new code of last month. We take this issue very seriously and we are conduct in the party. I understand that my right hon. acting on that. We are supporting the United Nations’ Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon work and I am pleased to say that we are the largest Lewis), the chairman of the party, has met Tell MAMA. single financial contributor to the Office of the Special We investigate any allegations of Islamophobia that are Representative of the Secretary-General for Children made relating to members of the party. Action is taken and Armed Conflict. and, in some cases, members have been suspended or expelled from the party as a result. Q4. [906073] Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): West Wales and the valleys remains one of the poorest areas in Q10. [906079] Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) western Europe, yet since 2015 we have seen the UK (Con): Recently, my right hon. Friend visited my Government renege on manifesto promises to electrify constituency where she announced the Ayrshire growth the main line to Swansea and the north Wales line, deal. Does she agree that the deal has the potential to and, more recently, on the development of the Swansea transform the local economy, and may I ask what steps Bay tidal lagoon. Will the Prime Minister commit to the Government are taking to drive the matter forward? ensuring that the mid-Wales growth deal does not suffer a similar fate? Or is it her Government’s The Prime Minister: I was very happy to visit my hon. assessment that Wales is simply not worth the Friend’s constituency and to highlight the opportunities investment? that the Ayrshire growth deal gives us. As he says, it is important locally, regionally and nationally because of The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman raises an the economic benefit that it can bring. Negotiations important point about the mid-Wales growth deal. As have now commenced between both Governments and he knows, I was happy to sign the Swansea city growth the Ayrshire councils on how to implement the deal. I deal, the city deal for the Cardiff region, and one for understand that officials met on Monday this week to north Wales as well. I understand from my right hon. discuss aerospace and proposals for Prestwick, and the Friend the Secretary of State for Wales that we are in work is ongoing across Ayrshire. Therefore, the work is discussions about the mid-Wales deal and will involve continuing and I can assure him that we recognise the the hon. Gentleman in that. importance of the Ayrshire growth deal.

Q11. [906081] Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): Will the Q9. [906078] Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): Prime Minister join me in congratulating the Foreign Will my right hon. Friend set out the Government’s Secretary for expressing so pithily what her hard Brexit plans to improve educational provision for children will do to British jobs and British businesses? with special educational needs, and will she congratulate Geraint Edwards, headteacher of the Priory School in The Prime Minister: I say to the hon. Lady, as I have Hitchin, on his brilliant and inspirational work in that said many times in this House before, that we are regard? pursuing a Brexit that will be a good deal for the UK, a good deal for business, a good deal for citizens, and a The Prime Minister: I am happy to congratulate good deal for jobs. I believe that we will achieve that Geraint Edwards on the excellent work that he is doing because it will be good not only for the United Kingdom, as headteacher of the Priory School. We are committed but for the European Union. to helping those children who have special educational needs to achieve well in their education, find employment 12. [906082] Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): and, obviously, lead happy and fulfilled lives, so we are After the tragedy of the Grenfell fire, may I put it to the implementing the biggest changes to the special educational Prime Minister that the people left being asked to pay needs and disabilities system in a generation, to improve for the costs of removing cladding and replacing it are these children’s lives, and we are investing £391 million the private leaseholders in private high-rise blocks? Can to support the reforms. she try to make sure that the owners—the freeholders—have put to them the points well known to the all-party Q6. [906075] Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): group and to the charity,Leasehold Knowledge Partnership, Three weeks have passed since the Muslim Council of particularly Martin Boyd and Sebastian O’Kelly, that Britain wrote to the chair of the Conservative party to the situation is intolerable and needs to be solved properly? raise concerns about Islamophobia in the party and it has yet to receive a reply. He has also failed to respond The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend will be aware of to my letter of 16 June following reports of what the action that we have taken as a Government in looked like an attempt by Tory headquarters to cover relation to the social sector and to local authorities, but up allegations against one of the Conservative party’s we are calling on building owners in the private sector vice-chairs, the hon. Member for Mansfield (Ben to follow the example set by the social sector in taking Bradley). Does the Prime Minister agree with Baroness action to remove unsafe cladding. Some in the sector—I Warsi and the Conservative Muslim Forum that the could name Barratt Developments, Legal & General Conservative party is in denial about Islamophobia in and Taylor Wimpey—are doing the right thing and its ranks? taking responsibility, but we want others to follow their 893 Oral Answers 27 JUNE 2018 Oral Answers 894 lead and we will continue to encourage them to do so. buildings that are close by.I will ensure that the Secretary They must do the right thing, and if they do not, we are of State for Scotland is aware of that question, and we not ruling anything out at this stage. will look at what can be done.

Q13. [906083] Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) Heidi Allen (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): At 6.49 am (SNP): Redford barracks has stood proudly for more my constituent, James Wheatcroft, emailed me to say: than 100 years in Scotland’scapital city,yet this Government “I am currently standing at Shepreth station. 06.40 has just are threatening its closure with an adverse impact on arrived. 05.38, 06.10 and 07.25 bus cancelled so this is on the both service personnel and the local community. My ONLY train to London this morning until the 8.10…Five people constituents have been waiting for months for an update have been on the platform for over an hour and…miss their on the better defence estate plan. It being Armed Forces Eurostar connection the station car park is totally empty—people Week, will the Prime Minister help me get an answer giving up and working from home.” from the Secretary of State for Defence, and will she tell At 7.29 am he sent another message: him that, rather than concentrating on his plans to “Our train has now broken down…Another train has arrived replace her as Prime Minister,he should halt the destruction but there is not enough room for everyone.” of the defence estate in Scotland? At 7.59 am, he said that the rest of the passengers had to get a train back north, there was no room for them The Prime Minister: A number of decisions are being on that either and that made to ensure that we have the defence estate that is “people simply decided to go home.” right for our future capabilities and requirements. I will ensure that the hon. and learned Lady’s point about not Please,PrimeMinister—assurancesfromGoviaThameslink yet receiving a reply from the Secretary of State is Railway are not enough. We need a taskforce to micro- brought to the attention of the Ministry of Defence. manage these contracts back to performance. Will she please commit to that? Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con): We all need to keep our election pledges, whether we made The Prime Minister: I recognise the concerns expressed those pledges one year ago or nine years ago, so will the by my hon. Friend. The performance provided for Prime Minister update us on our Conservative manifesto passengers has been unacceptable. The Department for election pledges to leave the single market, leave the Transport has been working on this issue with GTR, customs union and pursue an independent trade policy? and it is working to provide a new timetable, which will provide more capacity on the services, but it is not the The Prime Minister: I thank my right hon. Friend for same timetable that was originally introduced in May. the service that he has given to the Government over the The Department for Transport will continue to work to past seven years, most recently in an important role on ensure that the rail company is providing the performance the very topic that he has just raised—as Minister of that passengers rightly expect and deserve. State at the Department for International Trade—and also in his time as Minister for London. He conducted Sir Vince Cable (Twickenham) (LD): On Saturday, all these jobs with great ability and distinction, and I around 100,000 people gathered in Parliament Square thank him for all the work that he has done. to demand a people’s vote on the final Brexit deal. I did My right hon. Friend is right that we want to ensure not see the Prime Minister among the many Conservatives that we can negotiate independent trade deals around in the crowd, and the Leader of the Opposition was in the rest of the world. We will be leaving the single the middle east avoiding the many Labour supporters. market and the customs union so that we can do exactly Since the Prime Minister—[Interruption.] Since the that—have an independent trade policy and negotiate Prime Minister has such confidence that she will produce our own trade deals with the rest of the world. a good Brexit deal, why is she so afraid of allowing the final say to the public to endorse it? Q14. [906084] Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): Almost two weeks after the significant fire at Glasgow The Prime Minister: The Liberal Democrats have School of Art and the O2 ABC, neighbouring constituents argued in the past that we should have a referendum to and businesses are still out of their properties. Many are give people the choice about whether to stay in the struggling to get their insurance companies to provide European Union. We gave the people a choice, they adequate support as their own properties have not been have voted and we will deliver on it. damaged. Will the Prime Minister do all in her power to push insurance companies to provide the maximum support possible to my constituents and businesses? Johnny Mercer (Plymouth, Moor View) (Con): Will the Prime Minister confirm to the House today that she The Prime Minister: This was a terrible fire, damaging is absolutely committed to this country retaining its tier one of Glasgow’s iconic landmarks, which was rightly 1 military status, and equally open to the idea that regarded as a building of great architectural significance. increased threats require increased resources, but also committed to reforming the Department so that we end Alison Thewliss: What about constituents? the narrative of constant decline of UK military capability when the truth is in fact the complete reverse? The Prime Minister: Yes, I am coming to the issue that the hon. Lady has raised. I just wanted to take this The Prime Minister: We are absolutely committed to opportunity to give my heartfelt thanks to the work of this country remaining a leading military power. There the emergency services, which did their best in addressing is no question but that the Government will do what the fire. The hon. Lady has raised a specific issue about they need to do to ensure that we are a leading military insurance and ensuring that others can return to their power, but we need to ensure that we look at the threats 895 Oral Answers 27 JUNE 2018 Oral Answers 896 that we are now facing and the capabilities we need as The Prime Minister: We are aware of the issue that these threats change. That is what the modernising the hon. Lady has raised. There have been discussions defence programme is about. My hon. Friend makes the taking place in relation to that. We have been working important point that this is also about making sure that to ensure that this matter can be dealt with not just in our Ministry of Defence is operating as cost-effectively the interests, obviously, of those who are working in the as it can so that we ensure that we are providing for the social care sector but also in having a care for the brave men and women in our armed forces, but also impact that it will have on the charities that are working addressing the needs of the future. What do we need the in that sector. Ministry of Defence and our armed forces to look like in 2030? That is the question, but we are committed to Mr Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con): In matters relating remaining a leading military power. to my constituency, education, defence and local government are all in need of more funding. Can the Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): On Prime Minister assure me that the very welcome allocation Saturday, I was at BMW Cowley with 15,000 people, all of more money to the NHS does not crowd everything of them BMW workers and their families. Just two days else out? later, we had the starkest warning yet from BMW about the damage of a chaotic deal on Brexit for customs processes. When will the Prime Minister’s Government The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right to stand ditch the ideology and in-fighting and prioritise reaching up and speak on behalf of his constituents and their a workable deal on customs? interests, as other Members of the House do. As I made clear when I made the announcement about the NHS The Prime Minister: We are doing exactly that. We funding, other Departments’budgets will all be considered are putting forward proposals—[Interruption.] We are in the spending review. putting forward proposals to ensure that we can have as frictionless a trade with the European Union as possible. Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Everyone knows That is the aim of this Government, that is what we that Black country brewers brew the best beer in Britain. are working on, and that is what I am sure we will Holden’s in Dudley has been bottling beer continuously deliver on. for 75 years, even through the war, but along with other producers, it has had to cease production this week Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Con): Across because of the European CO2 shortage. What are the the country,people are taking great pride in the disciplined Government doing to sort that out, so that we can all performance of Gareth Southgate’s young and diverse enjoy a beer during the World cup? team. Will my right hon. Friend signal her Government’s support for their campaign during the play-offs by asking public buildings across England to fly the St George’s The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman will be cross, alongside the Union Jack if they want? Will she aware that that is predominantly a commercial matter also offer especial help to the right hon. Member for for the companies affected—the producers and suppliers. Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) in I am aware of the reports of shortages across Europe, raising her own St George’s cross to support our World and I know that industry is working on the solution. cup campaign? Although it is an issue for industry, the Government are in regular contact with the UK producer, distribution The Prime Minister: On the issue of flying flags, as I and consumer companies and trade associations, am sure my hon. Friend will appreciate, we are flying including those in the food and drink sector. He has the armed forces flag at No. 10 this week, but I do want made his point well, and I am sure that all those to join him in congratulating the England team on involved are working hard to ensure that his aim can be making it through to the next round in the World cup. I achieved. can assure him that No. 10 will be flying the England flag on the day of each of England’s matches from now Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): on, and we will be encouraging other Government This morning the Supreme Court ruled that the Departments to do the same. I can also say that I am Government had created inequality in not extending going to go further than my predecessors: next year we civil partnerships to everyone when they passed the will do the same for the women’s World cup. equal marriage legislation back in 2013, and that discrimination needs to be addressed urgently. Will the Laura Smith (Crewe and Nantwich) (Lab): Social Prime Minister now support an amendment to my Civil care workers up and down the country are being paid Partnerships, Marriages and Deaths (Registration Etc.) less than the minimum wage as a result of incorrect Bill when it goes into Committee next month, as the Government guidance. We are repeatedly told that the quickest way to resolve this illegal inequality and extend Government are in talks with the EU to resolve this civil partnerships to everyone? issue. Why are the talks taking so long? Will the Prime Minister do the right thing and commit to paying the workers what they are owed, directly through an HMRC The Prime Minister: We are very well aware of our scheme? legal obligations, and we will obviously need to consider the judgment of the Supreme Court with great care. We The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady raises an issue also recognise the sensitive and personal issues that are about people being paid the minimum wage. Obviously, involved in this case, and we acknowledge the genuine there are rules in place to ensure that exactly that convictions of the couple involved. My hon. Friend happens. refers to his private Member’s Bill. As he will know, we have committed to undertake a full review of the operation Laura Smith: It is not happening. of civil partnerships. I know that there has been a lot of 897 Oral Answers 27 JUNE 2018 Oral Answers 898 discussion with him about his Bill. We are supporting and businesses up and down the country that they can his private Member’s Bill, which would enshrine that continue their seamless operating model as we leave commitment in law. the EU?

Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely (Lab): Over 100 firefighters are tackling fires across right to raise that issue. Obviously Rolls-Royce plays a Saddleworth moors, spread over 7 square miles in my very important role in her constituency, but also in our constituency and the constituency of my hon. Friend country. It is an iconic brand for our country. We want the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds). to have the greatest possible tariff-free and frictionless Will the Prime Minister join me in commending members trade with the European Union. That is what we are of the Greater Manchester fire and rescue service and working on. At the same time, we want to ensure that Greater Manchester police and the many others who we can negotiate other trade deals around the rest of have volunteered and contributed to bringing the fires the world. We want UK companies to have the maximum under control? Will she commit to allocate contingency freedom to be able to continue to trade with and operate funds to those authorities affected, in recognition of the within European markets,while letting European businesses huge impact of this major incident on their resources? do the same here in the UK, but we also want to encourage our excellent, iconic businesses to have better The Prime Minister: I am sure that the sympathies of opportunities to trade around the rest of the world. Members across the whole House are with everyone affected by the fire, and I join the hon. Lady in commending Several hon. Members rose— the emergency services and all the volunteers and others who have been working to deal with the fire and fight it. Mr Speaker: Finally, I call Dr Paul Williams. I can reassure her that the Home Office is monitoring Dr Paul Williams (Stockton South) (Lab): Two Select the situation closely with the National Resilience Assurance Committees—the Housing, Communities and Local Team. So far, no request for Government support has Government Committee and the Health and Social been made by the Greater Manchester fire and rescue Care Committee—have today released a joint report service, but we are keeping this under constant review, describing a vision of a social care system where quality and operational policy arrangements are in place to personal care is delivered free at the point of need, provide support if required. separated from the ability to pay, and how to achieve that vision. The Committees’ citizens jury said this was Gillian Keegan (Chichester) (Con): All Rolls-Royce a system they were prepared to pay for. Does the Prime motorcars—an iconic global brand—are made in my Minister share that vision? constituency. Every day, 150 trucks arrive from Europe to supply BMW plants, and 120 trucks leave the UK The Prime Minister: We will obviously look very headed for Europe. We are the only serious party of carefully at reports that have been produced by Select business, so can the Prime Minister give some certainty Committees of the House. Weare committed to producing and confidence to the largest employer in my constituency a social care Green Paper in the autumn. 899 27 JUNE 2018 Points of Order 900

Points of Order the last written question I put in, I received what can only be described as the slightly offensive reply that “details of ministerial discussions are not…disclosed.” 12.50 pm They have not even had the decency to give me some Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): kind of timeframe. How can I get the Department of On a point of order, Mr Speaker—[Interruption.] Health and Social Care to tell me when it will release the money for the CAMHS unit that is so desperately Mr Speaker: Order. I will come to the hon. Gentleman needed in my constituency? when there is an appropriate air of hush, anticipation and respect for the hon. Gentleman—to which we are Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Lady for her point of gradually approximating. [Interruption.] I know the order, and for giving me notice that she wished to raise hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle it. I can understand her frustration at the responses she (Emma Hardy) used to be a teacher, but she does not has received from the Treasury. I believe that the practice have to raise her hand in the Chamber, as though she of Departments in responding to questions about ministerial was asking a question. We will come to the hon. Lady discussions varies somewhat. I would be most concerned and her point of order in due course. First, I hope the if Departments were not giving equal treatment to House will be quiet as we hear the point of order from questions from Members on both sides of the House. Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg. This point will be heard—if not immediately, then in due course—by the Leader of the House, who is the Mr Rees-Mogg: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for taking custodian of the rights of all Members, or one of the my point of order earlier than normal. The right hon. important custodians of the rights of all Members. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition referred to me The hon. Lady may wish to raise her concerns with in his comments earlier. He has only been a Member of the Chair of the Procedure Committee, the hon. Member the House for 35 years, so he may not have learned the for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), as his Committee keeps a form—it is considered good form for a Member to tell watchful eye on Departments’ patterns of answering another Member in advance when they are going to parliamentary questions. Meanwhile—I know this is refer to them—but that is not the point. What the right frustrating and irritating for her—I encourage her to hon. Gentleman said was false in all respects. My company persist in questioning. My almost failsafe advice to a does not actually run any hedge funds, so to have Member seeking guidance about how to proceed in moved a hedge fund out of this country would have relation to some unresolved matter is: persist, persist, shown a remarkable acrobatic nature within the business; persist! There are many examples of Members on both we have not in fact done so. I wondered whether he sides of the House who have specialised in such an might like to take this opportunity, as he is still in approach. I feel sure that the hon. Lady will not mind the Chamber, to set the record straight, rather than my praying in aid the late and, to many, great Sir Gerald otherwise be a peddler of false news or perhaps guilty Kaufman, who was not to be dissuaded from the pursuit of terminological inexactitude. of what he thought was proper by non-answers, delay or procrastination. That right hon. Gentleman simply Mr Speaker: Ah, I know that terminological inexactitude went on and on and on until he secured the satisfaction is of unfailing interest to the hon. Gentleman, who that he sought, and I commend such an approach to the appreciates the historical significance of the term that hon. Lady. he has just used. It is perfectly open to the Leader of the Opposition to come to the Dispatch Box if he wishes to do so. [Interruption.] Order. All this hand waving is Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab) rather unseemly. However, the right hon. Gentleman is rose— not under any obligation to do so. The hon. Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) has made his Mr Speaker: I will come to the hon. Lady, but first I point, and it is on the record. I thank him for making it, call Mr Richard Drax. and we will leave it there. Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): On a point of Several hon. Members rose— order, Mr Speaker. Before the Leader of the Opposition leaves the House, may I raise the point already raised by Mr Speaker: If there are other points of order, I will my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset exceptionally take them now, before we proceed to the (Mr Rees-Mogg)? You, Mr Speaker, are very much urgent question. against our using the word “lie” in the House, and I understand why, but what about “misleading”, because Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) there is no doubt that the Leader of the Opposition has (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I rise to ask misled the House and the country? Normally, it is the your advice on a matter of exceptional importance to tradition for a Member to apologise if they mislead the my constituents. As you know, I have been seeking for House.I seek your advice on this urgent matter,Mr Speaker. quite some time now to get a simple, clear answer to what I believe to be a simple, clear question. I have Mr Speaker: It is an important matter, but I have the written to Ministers, put in written questions and asked benefit of the Clerk, who has instantly consulted his questions during oral questions, and so far I have been scholarly cranium, having swivelled round and advised unable to get a straightforward answer to this question: me, “No”. The reason why I say no to the hon. when will this Government release the money for the Gentleman—I accept that the point is serious—is that child and adolescent mental health services unit in my to say that the Leader of the Opposition has misled the constituency that they have long promised? In fact, to House and committed an offence is to accuse him of 901 Points of Order 27 JUNE 2018 Points of Order 902 having deliberately misled the House.There is no suggestion Mr Speaker: My instant response to the hon. Lady is of that, even from the hon. Member for North East to mention to her—she will be aware of this fact, but it Somerset. may not be known to people observing our proceedings— Although I completely understand both the support that an important Bill, the Offensive Weapons Bill, is of the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) about to be debated on Second Reading. If I may for his colleague and his genuine concern about this politely say so, that would be a convenient opportunity matter—he is himself unfailingly polite at all times—it again to flag up her discontent on the matter. I thank is not for the Chair to seek to arbitrate in such a matter her for giving me notice of this point of order, and I about whether a parliamentary error has been committed. would say,more widely,that I entirely understand her—and, Each Member of this House, whoever that Member is in her position, I would feel—great annoyance that it and whatever post he or she occupies, is responsible for seems to be taking an inordinately long time to arrange words uttered in this Chamber and, as appropriate, for a meeting with Home Office Ministers to discuss these the correction of them; I am not the umpire of whether very serious matters, and specifically to honour, as I he or she is required to make a correction. That is not understand from what she has said, a commitment to just a doctrine evolved on the spot, but the very long her. The concern will have been noted by those on the established practice of this House. The hon. Gentleman Treasury Bench, and I hope that a meeting will be has made his point and it is on the record, and it may swiftly arranged. It would be unfortunate—not just in even wing its way to the people of his Dorset constituency. terms of inconvenience to the hon. Lady, but of embarrassment to the occupants of the Treasury Bench—if Catherine West: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. it were necessary for her to raise this matter in the This is my first point of order in three years, so I am Chamber on a subsequent day, so I hope that help will actually quite excited. be at hand sooner rather than later. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): On a point of Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): As are we all. order,Mr Speaker.Perhaps surprisingly,the Prime Minister did not choose to tell the House during Prime Minister’s Catherine West: It is about a serious matter, however. Question Time about the resignation this morning of At Prime Minister’s questions on 14 March, the Prime the leader of the Welsh Conservative party over remarks Minister instructed the Home Secretary to meet me to he made about Brexit and business. This was despite discuss the epidemic of gun crime in Haringey. A further their being indistinguishable from the remarks made by meeting with a junior Home Office Minister was promised the Foreign Secretary, apart from the swearing. Is there in connection with the totally separate case, involving any means by which this matter could be put on the mistaken identity,of an anti-terror raid in my constituency record? in April. It has now been 15 weeks since the first promise was made, and neither of these meetings has Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman, who is a very materialised. Mr Speaker, teenagers are dying in my experienced and dextrous Member of this House, has constituency from knives and guns, and I urgently seek found his own salvation. Furthermore, he has not just your advice about whether there are any parliamentary stumbled into finding it; he knows that by the utterly mechanisms by which I can ensure that the Government bogus device of a contrived point of order he has fulfil the promises made to meet me on behalf of those achieved his objective, as his demonstration of amusement constituents. evidently testifies. 903 27 JUNE 2018 Privately Financed Prisons 904

Privately Financed Prisons G4S—to bid to run the new prisons? Will the new residential women’s centre announced by the Government today be financed by the private sector? Finally, will the 1.1 pm new Justice Minister, who once worked in a senior role Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab) (Urgent Question): at Serco, which has £3.6 billion worth of MOJ contracts, To ask the Justice Secretary to make a statement on the be involved in the tendering process for any more of Government’s plans for more privately financed prisons. these private prisons?

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Rory Rory Stewart: The shadow Lord Chancellor asked a Stewart): Yesterday, I attended the Justice Committee number of important questions. Let me go through the hearing on prison populations and confirmed that, in answer on the six prisons where the 10,000 places are. line with the 2016 White Paper and the 2017 manifesto, At the first prison, Wellingborough, the construction we remain committed to delivering 10,000 new prison will be funded by public capital. The second prison, places in order to replace the places in prisons that at Glen Parva, will be funded through PFI. Weare exploring the moment often have old, unsuitable and expensive a range of other funding arrangements, including private accommodation. finance, for the remaining four prisons but we have yet During the Committee testimony, I confirmed two to achieve a resolution on that. things. The first was that we will be proceeding at On the question of who we would like to bid, of Wellingborough with a public capital financed prison, course we will be looking for legal, reliable bidders, but with work to begin at the end of this year or the I wish to emphasise that the key here is about getting beginning of next, subject to the usual tests of affordability quality and diversity into the estate. We do not want to and planning. I also confirmed that at the Glen Parva be overly ideological about this. We believe in a mixed site we will be continuing with the current demolition estate. There are some excellent public sector prisons. I and proceeding, again subject to the normal tests of had the privilege of visiting Dartmoor prison recently, affordability and planning, to a competition for a where prison officers within the public sector estate are private finance initiative construction of the Glen Parva delivering excellent services and getting very good inspection prison. We will then continue to push ahead with the reports. At the same time, Serco is running a difficult, four subsequent prisons, bringing us to the total of challenging prison at Thameside, which has 1,600 places, 10,000 places. and is innovating. It is bringing in new technology, it is We are also investing £16 million in further investments bringing computers into cells and it has had a real in repairs in the existing estate. All of this is absolutely impact on violence and on drugs. essential because, as the shadow Lord Chancellor is At Liverpool’s Altcourse prison, G4S is running a very aware, much of our estate remains old, expensive prison where there are fantastic employment facilities and unsuitable for prisoners, and we must move to and workshops in operation. The inspectors have clarified regenerate it. that in Liverpool the private sector, drawing on the same population size, is outperforming the public sector. Richard Burgon: Yesterday, the prisons Minister This is not a question of a binary choice between the announced a new private prison at Glen Parva. Previously, private and the public sectors; it is a question of a the Government had announced a £1.3 billion plan to diversity of suppliers, who can often learn a great deal build 10,000 new prison places.Despite repeated questioning from each other. from Labour, the Government had provided only obfuscation as to how these places would be paid for—now Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): Does my hon. we know why. I hope that my list of questions will Friend agree that the question of whether a prison is finally be answered today. publicly or privately financed and operated is an ideological The Ministry of Justice has been cut more than any irrelevance to the very many problems he faces? While other Department—it has been cut by 40%, or £4 billion accepting my congratulations on all the announcements per year. The flipside of cuts is a greater dependence on he and the Secretary of State have made this morning, privatisation and outsourcing, and when it comes to will he confirm that he will continue to give priority to our prisons it is the public who pay the price. Carillion’s reducing the numbers in prison, where possible, by collapse affected half the prison estate, where it was removing those who are merely inadequate, those who contracted to do basic prison maintenance. Yesterday, are mentally ill and who could benefit from rehabilitation the prisons Minister revealed that the contract was elsewhere? Will he also ensure that he gets rid of the “completely unsustainable”, costing the public millions older, slum, overcrowded prisons and that the new of pounds more each year, yet now we have more prisons can provide the quality of security and rehabilitation private contracts on the way.There are therefore questions that the public deserve? to answer. How many other new prisons are the Government Rory Stewart: That question comes from someone considering building under PFI? What is the estimated who was of course a very distinguished Lord Chancellor additional cost to the public ministry of building prisons and Secretary of State for Justice. My right hon. and under PFI? Will the new prisons have their maintenance learned Friend makes a powerful point: we need to work outsourced? Does the Minister still definitely intend ensure that prison is there primarily for the purposes of to sell off Victorian prisons that do nothing to reduce punishment, the protection of the public and turning reoffending? If not, does that mean less income and around lives in order to prevent reoffending. We have to more privatisation in our prisons estate? Will he allow be absolutely clear that people who ought to be in any of the companies being investigated by the Serious prison must be in prison and properly housed there, and Fraud Office for overcharging the MOJ—Serco and we must work to turn their lives around. He has put his 905 Privately Financed Prisons27 JUNE 2018 Privately Financed Prisons 906 finger on the fact that we have inherited a very challenging need to do across the House is make the case that prison estate. Almost a quarter of our prisons are buildings reform is in the interests of society and victims, rather that stretch back to the Victorian era or, in some cases, than going down ideological side tracks? to the late 18th century.That causes unbelievable problems of maintenance, and it contributes to problems of Rory Stewart: I think that is something we share overcrowding and to issues of decency. All of that gets across the Benches. Both sides of the House share a in the way of our ability to provide the conditions that common desire: to reduce crime and reoffending, and allow us to turn around prisoners’ lives. Therefore, it turn around people’s lives. It is a terrible waste that unfortunately gets in the way of preventing reoffending, nearly 40% of our prison population have been in care, which, ultimately, is the best way of protecting the that nearly 50% have been excluded from school, and public. that the literacy level of nearly 50% is lower than that of an 11-year-old. The rates of reoffending have been Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) stubbornly high for 40 or 50 years. (SNP): In the same week that the east coast line trains We need to work together to crack these problems. began running under public ownership, following the Decent, clean, well run and well managed prisons are third failure in 10 years of the privatised model, we now part of the key. Another part is getting cross-party have the Tories moving to privatise yet more of the consensus on the difficult and brave political choices Prison Service. We know it was the then Justice required to begin to reduce the prison population and Secretary—he is now Transport Secretary—who awarded protect the public through a reduction in reoffending. Carillion the £200 million outsourcing contract for prison maintenance. What due diligence did he complete David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Yesterday, the Minister on Carillion before signing off on that? Why was it confirmed that the Carillion contract for facilities had allowed to underbid for the contract by £15 million? not been managed well by his Department and had The prisons Minister said that the Carillion deal was resulted in additional costs to Carillion. What guarantees “completely unsustainable” and a “real, real lesson” for can he give the House that the contract for the new the MOJ, so why does he think that yet more privatisation prison will be managed in an effective way? Will he is the solution? ensure that the contract is published and subject to Lastly, the MOJ confirmed in a written answer on freedom of information, so that we can scrutinise his 21 June that the Government hold contracts worth decisions? £3.6 billion with the private firm Serco, despite the firm having been the subject of an investigation by the Rory Stewart: The right hon. Gentleman has enormous Serious Fraud Office. Does he honestly think that will experience of the issue, having been the prisons Minister reassure the public that we are not heading for a repeat responsible for managing private prisons. He is therefore of what happened with Carillion? aware that one reason we can stand up in front of the House and say we are confident we can do this is that Rory Stewart: To some extent, we are going over old we have been doing it for 25 years. ground again. The key, I believe, is to focus on the Some 14 private sector prisons are operating, with results on the ground. Let us start with the hon. Gentleman’s good reports from the inspectors. We have a lot of final question. We should really be judging Serco’s, experience of how this is done. This is not a new area of Sodexo’s and G4S’s performance in prisons by what Government activity; the right hon. Gentleman himself they are currently doing in prisons. Nearly 25 years of managed exactly these prisons. The key is balancing experience now lie behind this.Wehave a highly experienced proper competition, which brings in diversity and Department. There are 14 privately run prisons with innovation, with the right key performance indicators very clear key performance indicators. The inspection to make sure that we stay on top of that performance. reports on those prisons are strong—some are among the cleanest and best run in the country, with very good Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Unsurprisingly, I add scores from the inspectors on decency, purposeful activity my congratulations to the Minister to those of my right and resettlement. hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe To clarify on the issue of Carillion, yes, the company (Mr Clarke); I absolutely endorse his non-ideological was losing approximately £15 million a year on that approach. In considering what he will put in place in contract, but the taxpayer was not losing that money. future, will he look carefully at prison maintenance Carillion was bearing the cost. The taxpayer was effectively contracts? I think it would be better if the prisons saving £15 million a year on that contract. At the same themselves had greater control over such contracts, time, I agree that we need to take a lesson from what rather than there being one contract let centrally to happened, look carefully at the financial viability of maintain very many prisons. these companies and look at their performance in prisons. Rory Stewart: Getting the balance right on maintenance Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I warmly will be central. We are talking about three different welcome my hon. Friend’s statement, as I did everything kinds of maintenance: big structural maintenance, the that he said about the Government’s approach to prisons daily replacement of fittings and so on, and the basic at the Justice Committee yesterday. Does he agree that cleaning and facilities management. We need new anyone who takes an interest and has regularly visited approaches to all three, but in relation to the last, I pay prisons will be aware that the successes and failures tribute to the governor of Leeds prison, who is showing within the prison estate have nothing to do with ownership? that prisoners, by focusing on such things, can get He has cited two examples of excellent private sector qualifications themselves, improve living conditions for provision; as a south-east London MP, I am well aware prisoners and prison officers, and take those skills back of Thameside myself. Does he agree that what we really into the wider community to find employment. 907 Privately Financed Prisons27 JUNE 2018 Privately Financed Prisons 908

Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): In each other’s points. I absolutely accept the hon. Lady’s the spirit of developing a cross-party consensus on basic point—that it often feels as if there is nothing prisons, I welcome the Government’s apparent conversion radically new in criminal justice; I have just been looking yesterday to the Liberal Democrat policy of axing the at reports from 1962 on HMP Albany in the Isle of vast majority of prison sentences of under a year. When Wight and saw a lot of echoes with what, unfortunately, will the policy be implemented? Has the prison building is still going on in many places today. That is because plan that the Minister announced yesterday to the prisons for offenders are very difficult. Justice Committee factored in such a policy change? The hon. Lady is also absolutely right that nearly 65% of women in custody have experienced some form Rory Stewart: The argument that I was making yesterday of domestic abuse. That is why we are very proud, is that the recent evidence from our Department shows whatever the cross-party discussions, that we are pressing very clearly that people sentenced to short prison terms ahead with the female offenders strategy today. The are more likely to reoffend than somebody with a Lord Chancellor is leading on this, along with the community sentence—in other words, they pose a greater Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend threat to the public at the moment of release. They the Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar), the Minister also pose a destabilising factor in prisons: they are responsible for the female estate. disproportionately connected to drugs and violence. At the same time, as has been pointed out, we have an Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): I thank the Minister obligation to protect the public and be careful about for visiting Chelmsford prison with me a fortnight ago who exactly we are talking about within this category. and seeing at first hand the challenges of running the An enormous amount more discussion needs to take prison in what are, let us say, the more antique wings. place. I would be very happy to sit down with the right Does he agree that rather than there being some public/ hon. Gentleman to discuss ideas. This is not an easy one private ideology, we should focus on prisons that are to resolve, but the data is driving us in a particular well built and managed, on making sure that our staff direction. are well supported and on ensuring that prisoners do not reoffend and return after they leave? Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): When it comes to Rory Stewart: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who I fixing our prisons, what matters is what works. Does my believe has visited Chelmsford prison no fewer than hon. Friend agree that HMP Altcourse is an example of seven times, and to the staff at Chelmsford. When I a private sector prison doing a good job? As we embrace visited, they had had a very difficult three nights, up the future, the approach should be about pragmatism, night after night dealing with a difficult incident. Chelmsford not dogmatism. prison represents one of our local prisons that is going through a huge transition. There is a lot of focus on Rory Stewart: Absolutely. We are very much open to training new staff and one of the keys here is balancing both types of ownership. While praising some of the the right physical infrastructure in prisons with getting performance of private sector prisons, I take this the training and leadership right, in particular for new opportunity to reiterate that prison officers in public prison officers. sector prisons are astonishing individuals. On Thursday, I was lucky enough to attend the prison officers’ annual Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): awards, where we heard extraordinary stories about Last week, a Defence Minister stood at the Dispatch their work, courage, resilience and dedication on long Box and told us that the Government had awarded a shifts in some of the most challenging environments in contract to Capita, despite the Ministry of Defence this country. They need real tribute. Our public sector saying it was the highest risk possible for failure— prisons are wonderful examples of public service. 10 out of 10. I just wonder whether this Minister might be able to reassure the House that if Capita comes Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): The Minister forward with a bid for any of these contracts and scores speaks of the prison population who have been in care, a risk of 10 out of 10, it will not be awarded a contract. and I know he is well aware of the high proportion of women in the prison system who have been abused in Rory Stewart: The general point the hon. Lady is other relationships and settings, but Baroness Corston making is difficult to disagree with. Obviously, we need pointed all that out 11 years ago, which led to the to look at the viability of particular companies. I cannot Labour Government setting up what were often called comment on Capita, or on what exactly the MOD is “Corston projects”, such as Eden House in Bristol East, doing, but when assessing bids the Ministry of Justice which has suffered, I am afraid, from cuts under successive will very much take into account the financial viability Tory Governments since 2010. It is a bit rich to hear this of the company bidding. morning an announcement that coming up with residential alternatives to custody is a new idea. Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con): To maximise the efficacy of any contract, one needs a devoted and In addition to what the Minister has said this morning, focused contracted business, but one also needs expertise will he please update us on how facilities for women in in the management of that contract. Will my hon. the criminal justice system but outside prison are going Friend assure me that the skill set among his officials to be brought back up to scratch, as Baroness Corston monitoring contracts on a daily, in-real-time basis is as intended? sharp, professional and focused as it needs to be?

Rory Stewart: The Secretary of State and Lord Rory Stewart: That is absolutely right. It has traditionally Chancellor met Baroness Corston yesterday and they been a challenge to bring those private sector skills into had a constructive conversation in which they welcomed government and to make sure we have a critical mass of 909 Privately Financed Prisons27 JUNE 2018 Privately Financed Prisons 910 people who really understand how to stay on top of and purposeful activity. We will be underscoring, just as those contracts, as my hon. Friend says, not just annually the inspector does, the fact that segregation is a last but day by day. We are very proud of our director, Ian resort. Porée, who focuses on this procurement, particularly in relation to probation, and has those private sector skills. Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con): What my constituents As I said, we also have 25 years of experience here. and taxpayers care about is that the prison system delivers value for money, and that when people come out of prison they are equipped to contribute to society Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I appreciate and become citizens again, with a second chance at life. there are major issues around funding prisons and Will the Minister say more about how these contracts keeping staff and prisoners safe. The Minister wrote to will help that agenda? me about drug scanners in Holme House prison in Stockton North, but he did not address the issue of Rory Stewart: This is a very good question. All the scanners to detect drugs concealed in prisoners’ bodies 10,000 additional spaces we are bringing in are for when they leave one prison for another. Will we get one category C resettlement prisons. That has been one of soon, or is there not enough money? the real gaps in the system. We tend to have too many people in local reception prisons and not enough in Rory Stewart: There are, as the hon. Gentleman resettlement prisons, preparing people to make sure points out, two different types of scanner. There is a they have housing, employment and the right kind of straightforward x-ray scanner, which will generally pick support when they leave. That is vital to getting them a up on bits of metal and things outside a body. Then job and stability, and will ultimately prevent reoffending. there is a millimetre wave scanner, which is able, in The entire design of the contracts is to ensure that the certain of our prisons, to detect objects inside the body. prisons, in their architecture and purpose, work for These are expensive pieces of kit: in certain cases, they resettlement. can run into hundreds of thousands of pounds. We are Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): Responsibility now beginning to roll them out across the estate. I for prisons in Northern Ireland, as the Minister well absolutely agree that that is the technological future knows, is a devolved matter. He will also be well aware and we will be piloting them in 10 prisons to see that that we have not had a functioning Assembly in Northern they do what we both believe they should do. Ireland for 18 months, so we have no Justice Minister. Given those circumstances, will he please give reassurance Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) (Con): Glen Parva to the Northern Ireland Prison Service—its members prison is in my constituency, and I commend the Minister are enormously courageous and face risks daily in their for his welcome announcement yesterday with regard to jobs—that the prison estate in Northern Ireland will investment. He said at the Dispatch Box that he welcomes not be neglected in the continued and unfortunate quality and diversity of supplier. May I invite him to absence of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and in speak with his officials to ensure that, wherever possible, particular that the UK Government are well aware of local suppliers are invited to bid not just for the construction, those daily risks run by members of the Northern but for the maintenance and ongoing supply, of Glen Ireland Prison Service? Two of its members have been Parva prison? murdered in recent years. No one has faced justice yet, but I live in hope. Rory Stewart: As right hon. and hon. Members are Rory Stewart: I would like to take this opportunity to aware, in tendering for public procurement contracts we pay huge tribute to the Northern Ireland Prison Service. can look at social aspects, including local supply. I very Our permanent secretary works very closely with the much look forward to sitting down with my hon. Friend, permanent secretary of the Department of Justice, and who is a real champion for local suppliers in his constituency, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is working to see what we can do to make sure, in this and in other hard to try to bring the devolved Assembly back. We contracts where we are putting a prison in a local area, really do feel this. The Northern Ireland Prison Service that local businesses, particularly small and medium-sized has very, very unusual conditions, which in some ways enterprises, have a fair chance to participate in those makes its work even more challenging than the very contracts. challenging work undertaken in England and Wales. These are very courageous individuals doing a very Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): In difficult job day in, day out. We owe them a huge debt public or private procurement, what attempts will be of gratitude. made to stop the overuse of solitary confinement as a punishment? My constituent, a young man in his 20s, Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con): I welcome has on several days been locked up for 23 hours a day. the Minister’s recent statement and his overall progressive He could well take his own life. approach towards prisons. I welcome, too, the gratitude and appreciation he shows for all who work in the Prison Service. Will he confirm whether, under the Rory Stewart: We are very aware of the seriousness of previous Labour Government, the use and number of solitary confinement. Segregation should be used only private prisons increased or decreased? in the most exceptional circumstances. It is sometimes unfortunately necessary, but we want to minimise its Rory Stewart: This is a beautifully framed question use. We want to make sure that segregation, above all, is that is clearly teeing me up for something I am unable to used for rehabilitation and that that opportunity is used use. I am afraid I am not entirely sure, Mr Speaker, what to turn someone’s life and behaviour around, so they the answer to that question is. I apologise—it is such a can get back on to the prison wing and into education beautiful question. 911 Privately Financed Prisons 27 JUNE 2018 912

Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) Speaker’s Statement (Con): I warmly welcome the Minister’s statement. Like the Chairman of the Select Committee, I welcome his 1.28 pm approach and that of the Secretary of State to our prisons and to offenders more generally, in particular Mr Speaker: I wish to inform the House that I have the female offender strategy and the renewed focus on received a letter from the Leader of the House seeking rehabilitation. Will he consider in due course rolling out precedence to move a motion to refer to the Committee the female offender strategy more widely to other prisoners, of Privileges the refusal of Mr Dominic Cummings to in particular young offenders? attend a meeting of the Select Committee on Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, in defiance of the Order of Rory Stewart: This is a matter for my colleague who the House of 7 June. I am happy to accede to that has responsibility for the youth estate and the female request, and I will invite the Leader of the House to estate, but there are certainly elements in the female move such a motion as the first business tomorrow, offender strategy that have absolute application not just Thursday 28 June, after any urgent questions or statements. to the youth estate, but to the adult estate. The basic principles, particularly of a trauma-informed approach BILL PRESENTED to the individual still in custody, should have an effect on everything we do in prisons across the board. NORTHERN IRELAND BUDGET (NO. 2) BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Secretary Karen Bradley, supported by the Prime Minister, the Attorney General, Elizabeth Truss and Mr Shailesh Vara, presented a Bill to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of Northern Ireland of certain sums for the service of the year ending 31 March 2019; to appropriate those sums for specified purposes; to authorise the Department of Finance in Northern Ireland to borrow on the credit of the appropriated sums; to authorise the use for the public service of certain resources (including accruing resources) for the year ending 31 March 2019; and to repeal certain spent provisions. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 238) with explanatory notes (Bill 238-EN). 913 27 JUNE 2018 Toilets (Provision and Accessibility) 914

Toilets (Provision and Accessibility) older people make up an ever larger proportion of our population, so the need for extra provision will only Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order become greater. It would be a sad reflection on our No. 23) society’s priorities if people’s basic freedoms, such as going out with their family or friends, were restricted by 1.29 pm the absence of suitable toilet facilities, yet every week, Paula Sherriff (Dewsbury) (Lab): I beg to move, this is a reality for the thousands of people who are denied access to many of our country’s most popular That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require certain attractions. buildings to have toilets which meet the needs of persons with a range of disability and accessibility requirements; and for connected While drafting the Bill, I heard from too many people purposes. who suffer in this way. Kerry from Milton Keynes has a I realise that access to toilets might sound far from a form of muscular dystrophy and her husband is her glamorous political campaign. As a somewhat taboo full-time carer. She told me: subject—I am an MP who has often not been afraid to “Taking a simple trip out these days can be a military operation. raise taboo subjects in the House—it is rarely mentioned We have a checklist of things to take, especially if it’s more than a in the media or, indeed, in political debate. Most of us few hours out. The biggest problem I face when going anywhere is take it for granted, and we rarely hear about it when when it comes to using a disabled toilet. Some are simply too basic human rights for our citizens are listed, so much is small to fit me, wheelchair plus hubby—it can sometimes feel very claustrophobic. I find myself limiting my time out because you taken as a given. When the subject is raised, it is usually just can’t risk the embarrassment of having an accident—which is with reference to the developing world where, quite exactly what I’m doing more times than I care to admit to.” rightly, campaigners seek to raise the importance of Adam George, who is 11 years old, requires a toilet people’s access to basic sanitation and hygiene, yet too with a ceiling hoist and an adult-sized changing table. many people are denied that here in modern Britain as He loves outdoor activities, and his favourite place to go well. for a day out is the nearby Flambards theme park, but Let me start by making it clear what my Bill means by as he got bigger, the family could not manage with the fully accessible toilets, more commonly known as Changing standard disabled toilet. His mother, Rachel, says she Places toilets. Changing Places toilets should not be made excuses for a year as to why they could not go, confused with standard disabled toilets. They are designed telling him it was closed. After consulting the park to meet the needs of people with complex needs, providing about installing equipment to meet Adam’s needs, the a height-adjustable, adult-sized changing bench; a tracking family have made the difficult decision to undertake hoist system or mobile hoist; adequate space in the legal action against Flambards. Rachel quite rightly changing area for the disabled person and up to two asks: carers; a centrally placed toilet with room either side; a “Can you imagine not being able to access a toilet on a family screen or curtain for privacy; a wide tear-off paper roll day out? Especially one you have just paid a lot of money for? Do to cover the bench; a large waste bin for disposable you just go to places expecting your toilet needs to be met? Why pads; and a non-slip floor. shouldn’t disabled people expect the same?” As the regulations stand, Changing Places toilets are Samantha Buck’s son, Alfie, is seven years old and recommended in larger buildings, such as large train was born with quadriplegic cerebral palsy after being stations, motorway services and museums, but are not starved of oxygen at birth. They go into town regularly mandatory. As a minimum, my Bill seeks to strengthen to shop, to have lunch and to meet up for coffee with regulations by making the provision of Changing Places other mums and their disabled children and teenagers in toilets mandatory in large new builds, complexes with the same situation. Samantha explained what she has to public access, or sites where visitors can reasonably be go through: expected to spend long periods of time. I say this to “This is what I am forced to do with my seven-year-old son: I every Member in the House this afternoon: if you are have to lay him on a urine soaked floor inside the disabled loo, not aware that we have a Changing Places facility here with the 2nd carer standing outside with the wheelchair. They in the Palace of Westminster, please take a moment or have to pass the changing accessories through the open door for two today to establish where it is, because one day soon, all passers by to view. This is one of the most awful experiences I somebody might ask you if a Changing Places facility is have to face every time I come into town.” available in this place. Of course, it is ever important Samantha set about campaigning for better facilities for that here in Parliament we seek to set an example. Alfie and the thousands of people who face the same Such a proposal is the aim of the Changing Places struggles as them every day. I am glad to tell the House consortium, which launched its campaign in 2006 on that her local council has now agreed to put in two behalf of more than a quarter of a million people here Changing Places toilets, but she feels that the responsibility in the UK who cannot use standard accessible toilets. should not just be for parents and carers to lobby That includes 130,000 older people, 40,000 people with councils. profound and multiple learning disabilities, 30,000 people Current data suggests that there are only 1,123 Changing with cerebral palsy, 13,000 people with an acquired Places toilets in the UK, with the highest concentrations brain injury, 8,500 people with multiple sclerosis, 8,000 in major cities. Some areas do not have a facility even people with spina bifida and 500 people with motor within an hour’s drive, so people are either confined in neurone disease. I am sure that there are many more. their home, need to rush back if nature calls, or have to The number of people with complex disabilities is face the indignity of being changed on the dirty floors growing. Medical advances mean that more babies are, of public toilets. Needless to say, the result can be social thankfully, saved when once they might not have been, isolation. The availability of even the existing facilities but often they will require considerable assistance as is under threat, as public services such as libraries are children and as adults. We are all living longer, and being closed. Often, those buildings provided the only 915 Toilets (Provision and Accessibility) 27 JUNE 2018 916

[Paula Sherriff] Offensive Weapons Bill Changing Places facilities in an area but, sadly, that is Second Reading rarely a priority when local authority budgets bear the brunt of unprecedented cuts. In my area of Kirklees, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): The the nearest Changing Places toilet was lost when the House will wish to know that Mr Speaker has certified local children’s playground closed due to Government clauses 6 to 8, 11, 12, 26 and 27 as relating exclusively to cuts. England and Wales on matters within devolved legislative competence. Another issue is that many accessible toilets are provided for children, but not the adults who also need them. A hospital local to my area has its Changing Places toilet 1.40 pm situated on the children’s ward. Unfortunately, adults The Secretary of State for the Home Department with disabilities cannot access it for safeguarding reasons. (Sajid Javid): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a We need to urgently rethink our attitude to toilets. Second time. Simply labelling a facility as “disabled” or “accessible” does not guarantee that it will be suitable. Most do not For the past two years, we have seen an unacceptable have a hoist system or a large changing bench. Disabled increase in recorded knife and gun crime. We have also and accessible toilets have been found with no level seen a rise in acid attacks. Sadly, there was a vivid access, and with heavy or narrow doors that are not example just this week, with the fatal stabbing of Jordan automated, often with unsuitable or unclean handles Douherty, a young man of only 15 who had a great and locks. Diverse facilities are also needed to reflect future ahead of him, but whose life was tragically cut the diversity of the people who need them. Some people short. The Bill will strengthen powers available to the need bright fluorescent lights or air fresheners to reduce police to deal with acid attacks and knife crime. Its anxiety, whereas those can lead to sensory overload for measures will make it more difficult for young people to others. use acid as a weapon and to purchase knives online. My Bill addresses one of those issues that sometimes Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): suffers from being a bit taboo, but for the sake of those Craftsmen such as carpenters rely on mail order for the who suffer in silence, I believe it must be tackled head provision of their specialist tools because that can no on. I hope that the whole House will join me in this longer be maintained locally. Will the Home Secretary campaign. ensure that this excellent Bill does not intrude on the Question put and agreed to. provision of lawful trade? Ordered, That Paula Sherriff, Nic Dakin, Robert Halfon, Layla Sajid Javid: I am glad that my right hon. Friend, like Moran, Gill Furniss, Tracy Brabin, Rushanara Ali, me, thinks that the Bill is excellent. I can give him that Mary Creagh, Ruth Smeeth, Chris Elmore, Mr Kevan assurance. As I talk a bit more about the Bill, it will Jones and Marsha De Cordova present the Bill. become clear that the right types of reasonable defence will absolutely be in place. For example, knife sales to Paula Sherriff accordingly presented the Bill. businesses and for other legitimate use will remain Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on unaffected. Friday 23 November, and to be printed (Bill 239). There have sadly been 77 homicides in London alone this year, but violent crime affects all parts of our country, not just our big cities. Violent crime destroys lives and devastates communities, and it has to stop.

Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): The murder of the young man to whom the Home Secretary referred at the beginning of his remarks took place in the Collier Row part of my constituency. My right hon. Friend will know that we are not used to that kind of crime and people in my area are living in fear. Yesterday we had another incident, this time involving a machete-wielding individual near the town centre. Last month, we had the murder of an elderly lady with a hammer. Crime is spreading out to areas such as Essex, and I have to say that we need more than what is in the Bill. Measures need to be much tougher and the punishment has to fit the crime. Most people want the Conservatives to be a party that really gets to grips with this issue, because people in my area and many other parts of the country are really frightened at the moment.

Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise this issue. I know that soon after the terrible crime in his constituency this weekend, he was on the scene with others. I look forward, if I have the opportunity, to discussing the incident with him in more detail and 917 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 918 listening to his ideas. He is right that more is needed As the strategy makes clear, the rise in violent crime is than just this Bill, and I assure him that these measures due to many factors, including changes in the drugs are part of a much larger sweep of action the Government market. A crucial part of the strategy is also about are taking, which I will talk about in a moment. I also focusing on early intervention and prevention, which is want to listen to colleagues such as him about what why we are investing £11 million in an early intervention more we can do. I would be happy to do that and to youth fund, running a national campaign to tell young discuss how we can prevent such crimes taking place on people about the risks of carrying a knife, and taking our streets. action against online videos that glorify and encourage violence. To oversee this important work, we have set up Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): As a west midlands a taskforce that includes hon. Members from both sides MP, I was surprised and shocked by the latest figures on of the House, the police, the Mayor of London, community gun and knife crime, because we have more gun crime groups and other Departments. I hope that this is just per head of population than London. Will the Home the first stage of us all working together across parties Secretary elucidate how he thinks these new strategies and sectors. will deal particularly with urban knife and gun crime? The Bill covers three main areas: acid attacks, knife crime and the risks posed by firearms. Sajid Javid: I hope that my hon. Friend will agree with what I say about the Bill’s provisions on the sale of Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) knives and on the possession of knives and acid—I will (Lab): I welcome the Home Secretary’s commitment to come on to certain firearms later. Taken together, these tackling serious and violent crime, which we know has measures will help. However, as I said to our hon. such devastating consequences for families. I also agree Friend the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), about the importance of prevention, as well as the other measures in the serious violence strategy will also legislative measures. Given that some of the measures help to make a big difference. announced in the serious and violent crime strategy were concentrated around London, Birmingham and Nottingham, and that we have had awful stabbings in Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Leeds, Wolverhampton and Ipswich, what more will he Co-op): A young man in my constituency was tragically do to make sure that the prevention work is done right murdered in an incident in Liverpool recently, and across the country? unfortunately we in Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan have also seen a rise in incidents involving knives. I am Sajid Javid: I welcome the right hon. Lady’s support deeply worried about material glorifying violence that is and the work she does on the Home Affairs Select shared online in closed social media groups and other Committee, which she chairs, to scrutinise this type of forums. What is being done to tackle the sharing of work. She is right that some of the announcements on such material online? the community fund to help with early intervention have focused on big cities, but this is just the start. We Sajid Javid: The hon. Gentleman is right to talk have more funding to allocate and are already talking to about how, in some cases, social media contributes to community groups well spread throughout the country. the rise of such crime. That was the main topic of As I said right at the start, although there has been conversation at the last meeting of the serious violence much debate about London and other big cities—we taskforce, and soon afterwards we unveiled the new just heard about Birmingham—that suffer from these social media hub on serious violence, which will work crimes, they are widespread and extend to our smaller with internet companies to track down that kind of towns and, in some cases, villages, so we have to look at material. In some cases, that material will be taken all parts of the country. offline and, in others, an alternative message will be put out. We are very alive to this and are responding with Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): fresh funding, but I want to see what more we can do in As my right hon. Friend will know, there is some that space. concern among Conservative Members about the proposal I have seen at first hand the fantastic job that our in the Bill to ban .5 calibre weapons, because it would police do to protect the public and to help to keep this criminalise otherwise law-abiding users of a weapon country safe, but they cannot tackle serious and violent which, as far as I know, has never been used in a crime alone. We must all work together. I am committed murder. Will my right hon. Friend undertake to enter to taking strong action to end this blight on our into full discussions with his Ministers before the Committee communities. My predecessor, my right hon. Friend the stage? Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), published the comprehensive new serious violence strategy to Sajid Javid: I will say a bit more about that in a which I just referred on 9 April. This marks a major moment, but my hon. Friend has raised an important shift in our approach to violent crime and is supported issue, and I am glad that he has focused on it. The Bill by an extra £40 million of new funding. It shows that does make some changes in relation to high-energy the increase in violent crime is due to a number of rifles and other such weapons. We based those measures factors, so this debate should not just be about police on evidence that we received from intelligence sources, numbers, as is so often the case when we discuss such police and other security experts. That said, I know that issues. I remind the House that this Government have my hon. Friend and other colleagues have expertise, and increased police funding in England and Wales by over evidence that they too wish to provide. I can give my £460 million this year, and I have been clear that hon. Friend an absolute assurance that I am ready to police funding will be a priority for me in the next listen to him and others, and to set their evidence spending review. against the evidence that we have received. 919 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 920

Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con): I generally roles for the Department for Education, the Department welcome the Bill, but I should point out that the measures for Culture, Media and Sport, and other Departments. he is talking about mean banning the weapons. They They will need to do their bit, because, as my right hon. relate to about 200 bulky, expensive and very loud rifles Friend says, this will require cross-governmental action. which, as far as I know, have never been used for a single crime in this country. It is probably the gun least Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con): My right hon. Friend likely ever to be used in a crime. Is the Secretary of State has spoken of the drivers of this type of crime, and the aware that in pursuing this policy without good evidence, changing nature of the drugs market. I wrote to him he is losing the confidence of the entire sport-shooting this week about the “zombie” drugs, such as mamba, community for no good reason? which are affecting my town centre. Is the Bill likely to lead to crackdowns on those new drugs? Sajid Javid: According to the information that we have, weapons of this type have, sadly, been used in the Sajid Javid: The Bill does not focus on drugs, but my troubles in Northern Ireland, and, according to intelligence hon. Friend has made an important point. It is clear provided by police and security services, have been from the evidence that we have seen at the Home Office possessed by criminals who have clearly intended to use that changes in the drugs market are a major factor in them. That said, I know that my hon. Friend speaks the rise in serious violence, not just in the UK but in with significant knowledge of this issue, and I would be other European countries and the United States. We happy to listen to his views and those of others. want to take a closer look at the issue to establish whether more work can be done on it. Mr Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford The Bill covers three main areas: acid attacks, knife Green) (Con): If we follow my right hon. Friend’s logic, crime, and the risks posed by firearms. We have consulted we must conclude that literally every single weapon widely on these measures, and have worked closely with should be banned. Having served in Northern Ireland the police and others to ensure that we are giving them myself, I know that there is no end to saying that the powers that they need. The measures on corrosives everything should be banned. If we accept that these will stop young people getting hold of particularly weapons are not likely to be used if they are properly dangerous acids, the measures on online knife sales will secured and controlled, we should think carefully about stop young people getting hold of knives online, and banning them. If we just go on banning weapons, we the measures on the possession of offensive weapons will not achieve what we want. In Waltham Forest will give the police the powers that they need to act where I live, handguns are available to any criminal who when people are in possession of flick knives, zombie wants to use them, but those are banned as well. The knives, and other particularly dangerous knives that right people cannot use weapons, but the wrong people have absolutely no place in our homes and communities. certainly carry on using them. I believe that the Bill strengthens the law where that is most needed, and gives the police the tools that they Sajid Javid: My right hon. Friend makes the point need to protect the public. that our response must be proportionate, and we must ensure that banning firearms leads to the right outcome. David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I support the Bill—I do He has alluded to his own experience in this regard, and not want the Home Secretary to think otherwise—but I hope he is reassured by my indication that I am happy may I make a point about clause 1? When it comes to to talk to colleagues about the issue. He has also mentioned refusing to sell goods to individuals, it is shop staff who the need for control and proper possession of any type will be on the front line, and it is shop staff who may be of weapon that could be used in the wrong way. The Bill attacked or threatened as a result. Would the Home contains clear measures based on the evidence that has Secretary consider introducing, in Committee,an aggravated been brought to us thus far, but I am happy to listen to offence of attacks on shop staff? They, like everyone what others have to say. else, deserve freedom from fear.

Mr John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) Sajid Javid: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s (Con): The right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract support for the Bill. As he will understand, we want to and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) referred to the pervasive restrict sales of these items in order to prevent them nature of the culture that is leading to violent crime. from falling into the wrong hands, but he has made an Will my right hon. Friend work with other Departments interesting point about those who may feel that they are on some of the drivers of that culture? Some people are under some threat, particularly from the kind of people driven by the internet and social media, but there may who would try to buy knives of this type in the first be other malevolent sources of information that lead place. If he will allow me, I will go away and think a bit people into the business of crime. This will require a more about what he has said. great deal of lateral thinking, and I know my former apprentice is capable of that. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): Sheffield, like other cities, is deeply affected by a rise in knife Sajid Javid: I thank my right hon. Friend for making crime, and I strongly support the Bill’s objectives in that that important point. He speaks with experience of the regard. However, our city is also famous for knife Home Office, and my predecessor as Home Secretary manufacturing, and a number of local companies have established the Serious Violence Taskforce for precisely expressed concern to me about the blanket prohibition this reason. I have already held my own first meeting of of sales to residential addresses, which they fear could the taskforce. Each meeting leads to action, and, as I have unintended consequences. As the Bill progresses, mentioned earlier, the last one led to action on social will the Home Secretary consider alternative ways of mobility and online activity. However, there are also achieving its objectives—for example, an online knife 921 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 922 dealers’ scheme that would be mandatory for all distance Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): The Secretary of selling, with age verification standards set by the State has explained that clause 1 bans the sale of corrosive International Organisation for Standardisation? products to under-18s. I support that, but some of us think the age limit should be at 21 rather than 18. Sajid Javid: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, Would he be open to an amendment along those lines? but, as he will know, before we settled on any of these What is the reason for setting the limit at 18, rather than measures—particularly the one dealing with knives—there a higher age? was an extensive consultation involving many people, including manufacturers from the great city of Sheffield Sajid Javid: As the right hon. Gentleman will know, and other parts of the UK. I hope it is of some this was consulted on during the preparation of the Bill. reassurance to the hon. Gentleman that, while it is true We settled at 18 and I do not think we are interested in that deliveries to solely residential addresses will be moving from that, but he does deserve an explanation: prohibited, deliveries to businesses operating from residences 18 is used as the legal age between child and adult for a will not. There are some other defences which I think number of things, and it felt to us to be the right age. It will help with the issue that he has raised. For example, is also an age that is consistent with other Acts of the prohibition will not apply to table knives, knives to Parliament. We think it is the appropriate age to set the be used for sporting purposes, knives to be used for limit on some of the measures in the Bill. re-enactment purposes, or hand-made knives. I hope that that indicates to the hon. Gentleman that we have thought carefully about the issue, but if he has any Dr David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): It was clear other suggestions, he should write to me and I will from the consultation on high-calibre rifles that their consider them. owners were prepared to look at measures to make sure that those rifles were made as safe as possible so they Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): The UK already has did not fall into the wrong hands, yet the Government a reputation for having the strongest and best firearms now intend to ban them. Will the Secretary of State legislation across Europe. Does my right hon. Friend look at the consultation again and at the assurances agree that the intention of this Bill is to make sure people were prepared to give, and make sure those dangerous knives and toxic chemicals are equally strongly law-abiding citizens are not adversely affected? legislated against, but it is not the intention to take action against law-abiding citizens? Sajid Javid: I hope the hon. Gentleman has heard some of the comments made around this issue over the Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and I past 20 minutes or so. I do understand the arguments could not have put it better myself. She will know that around the issue, and of course he would expect the there are already some restrictions on knives; for example, Home Office to listen to arguments on the other side as there are restrictions on buying the so-called zombie well, which as he says have had an input into the Bill. I knives, but there is no restriction on possessing them at am more than happy to listen to colleagues on both present. Part of the Bill’s intention is to fill in some of sides of the House on that issue and any other issues those obvious gaps, as members of the public have around the Bill. asked why the Government have not addressed them before. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The Secretary of Mr Alister Jack (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con): I State will have received correspondence from the think the point my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford Countryside Alliance and the British Association for (Vicky Ford) was making is that it is the law-abiding Shooting and Conservation. One of the issues my holders of .50 calibre guns who are being made criminals constituents have asked me about is the compensation yet these are target rifles. Sometimes the law of unintended clause for weapons that might be taken back or retrieved. consequences in Bills catches us out, such as in the How will the value of the firearms be calculated, and Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, and we should not be making where will the money for the compensation come from? these people criminals when no crime has been committed Will it come from Northern Ireland or the UK centrally? in Great Britain by using this calibre of rifle. Will people who surrender firearms face questioning or checks that might dissuade them from surrendering Sajid Javid: I understand my hon. Friend’s point and their firearms? We must have good communication with I hope he takes some reassurance from what I said on those who hold firearms and will be impacted greatly that topic just a few moments ago. by this. Robert Courts (Witney) (Con): All of us on both sides of the House wish to see action taken to combat the Sajid Javid: The hon. Gentleman will know that these scourge of violent crime, but a great many of my measures in the Bill are devolved in the case of Northern constituents have written to me expressing concerns Ireland, and some of the issues he raised about about the inadvertent impact of the Bill particularly on compensation and how it is calculated may well be rural sports, and the Home Secretary has heard those decisions that eventually the Northern Ireland Government, today. Will he meet me and groups of others so we can once in place, will reach. In England and in Scotland if make sure those concerns are heard and rural communities’ it consents, we have set out how compensation can views are taken into account? work, and our intention is to make sure it is reasonable and it works, and that is not just in the case of firearms— Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend will know that my there is a general compensation clause. It is harder for constituency is also very rural and I hear about issues of me to answer that question in respect of Northern that type quite often myself. I am more than happy to Ireland as ultimately that decision will not be made by meet him and other colleagues who have an interest in the Home Office; it will be a decision that the Northern this issue and any of the measures in the Bill. Ireland Government will have to settle on. 923 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 924

Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): I thank my extends many provisions to Northern Ireland in the right hon. Friend for the way in which he is approaching absence of a functioning Assembly. I am particularly Second Reading; it demonstrates that Second Readings pleased to see that there will be restrictions on offensive of Bills are extremely important and should happen products being sold to persons aged 18 or under. I am with great regularity. May I commend to him the work also pleased to see the restrictions on knives. However, I in Hertfordshire and Broxbourne council to bring together must reflect to the Home Secretary the extremely troubling agencies across the county and boroughs to deal with evidence that was given to us in the Northern Ireland knife crime? There is a role for local politicians and Affairs Committee this morning by the Chief Constable local agencies in addressing this really complicated issue. of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, who has requested an increase in police personnel and who has Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: ultimately, taken off the market three unused border police stations only so much can be done by the centre. The centre can that were for sale. The issue, I have to say, is Brexit. set the laws and provide funding in certain cases, but Without infrastructure, there will be movement across much of the work being done, as we have seen with the the border of offensive weapons, including knives and serious violence taskforce, is community and locally corrosive products. How will the PSNI deal with those led, and I join him in commending the work in movements under this legislation, which I am pleased to Hertfordshire. We are very much aware of that in the welcome? Department, and it sets an example for many other parts of the country. Sajid Javid: I thank the hon. Lady for her support for the measures in the Bill. She has raised particular Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Building on the questions about Northern Ireland. She will know that, question of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne because these matters are devolved and the police have (Mr Walker), there is an important leadership role for operational independence, how they deal with the issues police and crime commissioners working alongside the presented by the Bill and other cross-border issues will local constabulary and the other partners that have be a matter for them. She referred to evidence given to been mentioned. Will my right hon. Friend the Secretary the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee this morning, of State or his colleague, the Minister for Policing and which unfortunately I did not listen to. If she wants to the Fire Service, share with us, if not today, at a later provide me with more information on that, and on how date, what they consider to be best practice in terms of she thinks the Bill might fit in with it, I would be happy real leadership on the ground and partnership building to look at that. to help tackle the problems that we all face? Several hon. Members rose— Sajid Javid: In the serious violence strategy published in April there were some examples of good practice, but Sajid Javid: I must go on, as a number of colleagues my hon. Friend makes the point that since then, because want to contribute to the debate. of the use of some of the funds for example that were in Turning to acid attacks, of course it is wrong that that strategy, we have seen other good examples. We will young people can buy substances that can be used to be very happy to share them with my hon. Friend. cause severe pain and to radically alter someone’s face, body and life. There is no reason why industrial-strength Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) acids should be sold to young people, and the Bill will (Con): As a doctor who has treated children with both stop that happening. We will ban the sale of the most stab and gunshot wounds, I commend my right hon. dangerous corrosives to under-18s, both online and Friend on what he is doing to try to reduce the violence offline. We want to stop acid being used as a weapon. on our streets but, equally, as a Conservative I am not At the moment, the police are limited in what they can keen to ban things that do not need to be banned. In the do if they think a gang on the street might be carrying past, we banned handguns; what effect has that had on acid. The Bill will provide them with the power to stop gun crimes committed with handguns in this country? and search and to confiscate any acid.

Sajid Javid: I share some of the sentiments expressed Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con): I welcome what by my hon. Friend: when a Government ban anything my right hon. Friend is saying about acid. Will he give that must be led by the evidence. In doing that we must further thought in Committee to the question of the also listen to the experts on the frontline of fighting private purchase of these fantastically corrosive acids? crime. As my hon. Friend said, she has in a way been on Does he agree that there is little point in restricting their the frontline dealing with the consequences of this sale to those below the age of 18, because those over crime. She asked about handguns and the impact of the that age can also get very annoyed and use those ban; I do not have to hand any particular numbers or substances to the devastating effect that he has set out? statistics, but I will be happy to share them with her. My hon. Friend’s central point is appropriate: when any Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend makes an important Government act to ban anything we must be very point, but the evidence that we have seen shows that the careful and make sure it is proportionate and led by the real issue is about young people getting their hands on evidence. this acid. We have seen examples of them getting hold of it and separating it into two mineral water bottles, Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): The Home Secretary then carrying it around and using it to devastating has acknowledged that justice and policing are devolved effect. The measures that we have here, alongside the matters, and has he recognised that we do not have a measures on possession of acid in a public place, will functioning Assembly at present; we have not had one combine to make a big difference to the situation we for 18 months. I was therefore delighted that this Bill find ourselves in today. 925 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 926

Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): that important point. While the Bill can achieve a few Will the Minister give way? things—we have talked about acid and knives falling into the wrong hands, for example—no Bill can by itself Sajid Javid: On acid? stop someone who is intent on taking this kind of Sir Edward Davey: Yes.The Home Secretary is absolutely vicious action. As he says, that requires a much more right to legislate for this offence. Will he tell the House holistic approach to ensure that all aspects of government how he and his colleagues will ensure that local authorities, and non-Government bodies, charities and others are trading standards, the police and others will be supported involved. Education is also a vital part of that, as is in enforcing this offence, to ensure that the new powers parenting. In some cases, there is better parenting, but are actually used? there are no easy answers to any of this. He is absolutely right to suggest that we need to have a much more Sajid Javid: I must point out that when I said to the holistic approach. I can assure him that this is exactly right hon. Gentleman, “On acid?” I was not asking him why the serious violence taskforce has been created, and if he was on acid. It was a more general question, this is exactly the kind of work that we are trying to although I noticed that he readily jumped up and said achieve. yes. He makes an important point about ensuring that once the changes are made, all those who need to be Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): The Home Secretary aware of them will get training in the process of bringing will know that, tragically, we have had nine deaths them about. As he knows, this will involve trading related to youth violence in my constituency over the standards and local authorities, and we are in touch past year. I have some sympathy with what the hon. with those groups. By the time the Bill has progressed Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) has just said, and hopefully achieved Royal Assent, we will have but these things can happen to any family. The groomers worked quite intensively with the groups that have an out there find children from all kinds of families, and I interest in this to ensure that the measures in the Bill are do not want anyone watching this debate to believe that well understood. it cannot happen to them or to their children. We all If I may turn to knives, it is already against the law to need to be vigilant, and I am looking forward to sell knives to under-18s, but some online sellers effectively the progress that the Home Secretary’s working party ignore this. Sadly, such knives can get into the hands of will make. young people and this has led to tragic deaths. We will stop that by ensuring that proper age checks are in place Sajid Javid: I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. at the point of sale. We will stop the delivery to a home She has made a vital point. Sadly, anyone can be on the address of knives that can cause serious injury. We will receiving end of this violence. Tragically, we see that in also crack down on the overseas sales of knives by the UK every year, but we all recognise that there has making it an offence to deliver them to a person under been a significant increase this year, and we need to 18 in this country.I find it appalling that vicious weapons work together to combat that. Anyone can be a victim. are on open sale and easily available. It shocks me that flick knives are still available despite being banned as Finally, I want to turn to an issue that we seem to long ago as 1959, and that zombie knives, knuckledusters have discussed in some detail already: the measure on and other dreadful weapons are still in wide circulation. firearms. The Bill will prohibit certain powerful firearms The Bill will therefore make it an offence to possess including high-energy rifles and rapid-firing rifles. As such weapons, whether in private or on the streets, and we have heard, hon. Members on both sides of the it will go further and extend the current ban on offensive House have different views on this. While preparing the weapons in schools to further education premises. Bill, we have listened to evidence from security, police and other experts, but I am more than happy to listen to Andrew Rosindell: A young man was murdered with a hon. Members from both sides, to take their views into knife in terrible circumstances in Romford on Saturday account and to work with them to ensure that we do evening. We can ban these weapons if we like, but the much more to bring about increased public safety. Home Secretary needs to be aware that if someone with criminal intent wants to get hold of one, they will find a Lady Hermon: Will the Home Secretary give way? way. I commend the Bill and I will support it, but surely we should also be looking at how young people are Sajid Javid: I will take one final intervention, then being brought up. We should look at what is happening conclude. in the home and in schools and at whether young people are being taught the values of right and wrong and behaving in a decent way. They can learn this from early Lady Hermon: I am very grateful to the Home Secretary childhood, and schools have a role to play in enforcing for allowing me to intervene again. He will be well discipline. Parental guidance and strong support from aware that, yesterday, the Deputy Chief Constable of families are also important. The family unit is important the Police Service of Northern Ireland was appointed as if young people are to grow up in a society where they the Garda commissioner,which is a brilliant appointment. can live freely without committing these kinds of crimes. One of the means by which the Home Office should try Should we not be looking at the whole thing in a to ensure that the dangerous corrosive substances and rounded way, not just banning things? Should we not be knives banned under the legislation will not come across looking at how we can ensure that young people grow the border from the Republic of Ireland into Northern up to be good citizens of this country? Ireland—we will not have physical infrastructure on the border after Brexit—is to call the new Garda commissioner Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend has raised the death of and his new team when he is in post. I make that warm Jordan Douherty, which tragically occurred this weekend recommendation following that excellent appointment following a knife attack, and I am glad that he has made to the Garda Siochana in the Republic of Ireland. 927 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 928

Sajid Javid: I commend the Garda on their appointment. Charge rates for serious violence have fallen as the The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service will be in detective crisis continues, undermining the deterrent touch with the new head of the Garda in his new role. I effect, but still Ministers pretend that a staggering reduction am sure it is an opportunity to discuss such cross-border of more than 21,000 police officers since 2010 has had issues and see how we can co-operate even more. no impact whatsoever. hope the measures in the Bill will attract widespread Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con): In the west support on both sides of the House. They fill an important midlands, the Labour police and crime commissioner gap in the law, and they give the police, prosecutors and has been able to raise additional funds through an others the tools they need to fight these terrible crimes. increase in the precept, yet he has chosen to put no The Bill will help to make all our communities safer by extra police on the beat, particularly in my constituency. helping to get dangerous weapons off our streets. As Regardless of how much money is available, we have to Home Secretary, I will be relentless in ensuring that our get over the obstacle that police and crime commissioners streets remain safe. I commend the Bill to the House. might decide to spend it differently.

2.21 pm Louise Haigh: Recruitment is a matter for chief constables. My understanding is that West Midlands Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab): It is important police are undergoing a recruitment drive. Obviously, I to begin on a note of agreement. The Opposition pledged cannot speak to the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, but in this House that the Government would have our how chief constables spend the money the precept support if they came forward with measures on acid raises is up to them. The issue we have with using the sale and possession and further measures to combat precept to raise funds for the police—the House has knife crime, so we will support the limited but necessary rehearsed this time and again—is that a 2% increase in measures in the Bill. Throughout the Committee stage, council tax in areas such as the west midlands will raise we will take a constructive approach in areas in which significantly less than in other areas of the country such we believe it needs strengthening. as Surrey or Suffolk. That is why we opposed that In and of themselves, the measures cannot bear down fundamentally unfair way to increase funding for our on a violent surge that has left communities reeling. police forces. That will require a much more comprehensive change. The reduction in the number of officers has reduced It is as well to look at the context of the Bill. Knife the ability of the police to perform hotspot proactive crime offences reached record levels in the year to policing and targeted interventions that gather intelligence December 2017. Homicides involving knives increased and build relationships with communities, These not by 22%, and violent crime overall has more than doubled only help the police to respond to crime but help them in the past five years to a record level. The senseless to prevent it from happening in the first place. That is murder of 15-year-old Jordan Douherty,who was stabbed the bedrock of policing in our country. Community after a birthday party in Romford community centre policing enables policing by consent, but has been decimated over the weekend, brought the number of murder over the past eight years. That has contributed not only investigations to over 80 in London alone this year. to the rise in serious violence but to the corresponding As we have heard, the problem is far from being just a fall in successful prosecutions. Not only are more people London one. In my home city of Sheffield, which committing serious violent offences, but more are getting historically and until very recently was considered to be away with it. one of the safest cities in the UK, there was a 51% increase Stephen Doughty: I wholeheartedly agree with my in violent crime last year on a 62% increase the year hon. Friend. She will be aware that I have long campaigned before. That is not a spike or a blip, but a trend for Cardiff to get additional resources because of the enveloping a generation of young people and it requires challenges it has as a capital city. I am glad that the immediate national action. Minister for Policing and the Fire Service has agreed to It is difficult to escape the conclusion that what is meet me, the chief constable and the police and crime omitted is of far greater consequence than what has commissioner in south Wales to discuss these very real made it into the Government’s serious violence strategy concerns. Does my hon. Friend agree that community and their legislative response today. First, it must be policing resources are absolutely crucial? Community said that unveiling a strategy that made no mention of police can deal with the grooming that my hon. Friend police numbers was a serious mistake that reinforced the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) described, the perception that tiptoeing around the Prime Minister’s whether it is to do with knives and violence, drugs or legacy at the Home Office matters more than community extremism. safety. The Home Secretary might not want today’s debate to be about police numbers, because a dangerous Louise Haigh: I could not agree more with my hon. delusion took hold of his predecessors that police numbers Friend, who is a committed campaigner for Cardiff to do not make the blindest bit of difference to the rise in receive the police resources it needs. That is why the serious violence, but that view is not widely shared. The Labour manifesto put neighbourhood policing at its Met Commissioner Cressida Dick has said she is “certain” heart. Neighbourhood policing not only enables the that police cuts have contributed to serious violence. police to respond better to crime, but it is an important Home Office experts have said it is likely that police cuts intelligence-gathering tool for tackling terrorism, more have contributed too. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of serious crime and organised criminal activity. constabulary said in March that the police were under The proposals in the Bill to strengthen the law to such strain that the lives of vulnerable people were meet the changing climate are welcome, but, without being put at risk, with forces so stretched that they adequate enforcement, they cannot have the effect we cannot respond to emergency calls. need them to have. The Government must drop their 929 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 930 dangerous delusion that cutting the police by more than Behind this tragic spate of violence is a story of any other developed country over the past eight years missed opportunities to intervene as services retreat; of bar Iceland, Lithuania and Bulgaria has not affected children without a place to call home shunted between community safety.They must make a cast-iron commitment temporary accommodation, with their parents at the that in the spending review they will give the police the mercy of private landlords; of patterns of truancy and resources they need to restore the strength of expulsions; and of troubled families ignored until the neighbourhood policing so recklessly eroded over the moment of crisis hits. The most despicable criminals are past eight years. exploiting the space where well-run and effective early intervention, prevention and diversion strategies once Andrew Rosindell: One problem in my constituency existed. following the murder on Saturday evening is the feeling As the Children’s Commissioner notes, the pursuit of that the police do not have enough resources. I agree young children is now with the hon. Lady. We cannot keep reducing resources “a systematic and well-rehearsed business model.” for policing and say it will not have an effect on crime; clearly it will. However, Havering in my area, for example, The Home Secretary himself highlighted the importance is part of Greater London, so the resources are allocated of early intervention in tackling violence when he told by the Mayor of London. Our area gets far less than “The Andrew Marr Show” that we must deal with the other parts of London. Yes, let us have more resources, root causes, but the £20 million a year we spend on early but does the hon. Lady agree that areas like mine need a intervention and prevention has to be seen in the context fairer slice of the cake? If crime is moving out to areas of the £387 million cut from youth services, the £1 billion such as Essex, we need resources. We are not inner cut from children’s services, and the £2.7 billion cut London—we are completely different—and therefore from school budgets since 2015. For most communities, need a different style of policing and adequate resources the funding provided by the serious violence strategy to make our communities safe. will not make any difference at all. How can it even begin to plug the gap? Louise Haigh: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right We know what happens when early intervention that resources should follow demand. That is why it is a disappears. A groundbreaking report 18 years ago by crying shame that the Government have kicked the can the Audit Commission described the path of a young down the road on the police funding formula, which has boy called James who found himself at the hard end of denied resources to areas of the country that are in the criminal justice system before the last Labour serious need of police resources. That funding formula Government’s progressive efforts to address the root should be based on demand. causes of crime through early intervention: “Starting at the age of five, his mother persistently requested Vicky Ford: Following the point made by my hon. help in managing his behaviour and addressing his learning difficulties. Despite formal assessments at an early age for special Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), educational needs, no educational help was forthcoming until he will the hon. Lady join me in thanking Essex police and reached the age of eight and even then no efforts were made to congratulating them on the 150 officers they are adding address his behaviour problems in the home. By the age of ten, he to our force? had his first brush with the law but several requests for a learning mentor came to nothing and his attendance at school began to Louise Haigh: It is welcome when any police force suffer. By now he was falling behind his peers and getting into trouble at school, at home and in his…neighbourhood… recruits additional police officers. I do not have to hand Within a year James was serving an intensive community the number of officers that Essex has lost since 2010, … but I imagine that it is significantly more than 150. supervision order and only then did the authorities acknowledge that the family had multiple problems and needed a full assessment. Let us look at the Home Office research on the A meeting of professionals was arranged but no one directly drivers of trends in violent crime. Neighbourhood policing involved with James, other than his Head Teacher, attended, no was certainly mentioned; social media was acknowledged social worker was allocated and none of the plans that were drawn up to help James were implemented. Within a short space to have played a role, as were changes to the drug … market, as the Home Secretary mentioned, particularly of time, he was sent to a Secure Training Centre and on release no services were received by James or his family. He was back in in respect of the purity of crack cocaine. They are all custody within a few months.” factors in the spate of recent murders, but one of the most important factors that the analysis showed was How many Jameses have we come across in our that a larger cohort of young people are now particularly constituencies? How many mothers like James’s have we vulnerable to involvement in violent crime because of met in our surgeries? The pattern described here could significant increases in the numbers of homeless children, just as well be attributed to a young man I had been children in care and children excluded from school. Just seeking to help over the past year but whose life was 2% of the general population have been excluded from tragically ended just last month. He was stabbed to school, compared with 49% of the prison population. death in my constituency,and another 15-year-old charged As much as this Bill is, and should be, about taking with his murder. offensive weapons off our streets, the issues around It very much feels as though we have learned these serious violent crime are also a story of vulnerability. lessons before and are now repeating the same mistakes. The Children’s Commissioner has shown that 70,000 under-25-year-olds are currently feared to be part of KwasiKwarteng(Spelthorne)(Con):Giventheintelligence gang networks. The unavoidable conclusion is that, for we have received that the Mayor of London is doubling a growing, precarious and highly vulnerable cohort of his PR budget, what role does the hon. Lady think he children, the structures and safety nets that are there to can play in trying to address the urgent problem in protect them are failing. this city? 931 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 932

Louise Haigh: The Mayor of London has put Stephen Doughty: My hon. Friend is making some £150 million into recruiting additional police officers. I excellent points, and she will recognise that in Wales the appreciate the serious concerns in London but this is a Welsh Labour Government have invested in keeping national problem, as I have made clear and as the Home police community support officers in our communities, Secretary has acknowledged. This is not a London-only which has made a huge difference in my own community. problem. Indeed, the increase in violence in London is Will she also paytribute to the manyvoluntary organisations actually lower than in other parts of the country, which that are working with young people in particular? Tiger is why a national solution is required. It is politically Bay and Llanrumney Phoenix amateur boxing clubs in easy to pass the blame on to the Mayor of London, but my patch are working with young people who are very it simply is not the case that that is the only solution. much at risk of being groomed or caught up in such things, and they are making a huge impact on those Sir Edward Davey: The hon. Lady is speaking huge individuals’ lives. common sense, as everyone in this House knows. Anyone who looks at our prison population knows that people Louise Haigh: I am grateful for that intervention. in prison are suffering from mental health problems and Across the country, such community organisations are learning disabilities, all of which could have been dealt filling a vacuum that has been created by Government with through early intervention. I ask her not to be put cuts over the past eight years. They are doing sterling off by completely irrelevant interventions. work with at-risk young people, and preventing many of them from falling into exploitation and violence. Louise Haigh: The right hon. Gentleman need not I take this opportunity to commend the work of the worry; I will not be put off at all by interventions from Scottish Government not just through the violence Government Members. reduction unit, which I am sure we will hear much of in today’s debate, but in their commitment to long-term Will Quince (Colchester) (Con): The hon. Lady mentions research on the patterns of youth offending and violence. that this is not only a London problem, but a lot of it The last major national study of youth crime in England does emanate from London. The county line operations and Wales was 10 years ago, which means we do not and many other things start in our big cities, so will she know the impact of social media or, indeed, of austerity. join me in encouraging the Metropolitan police to work We urge the Government to repeat that survey, to far more closely with other forces to make sure we commission research on why young people carry weapons break these county lines? The county lines are now and on the risk factors that lead to violent offending, heading across the country, but they largely start in and to commission an evidence-based analysis of the London. success of various interventions. That could build on the excellent work led by my hon. Friend the Member Louise Haigh: I completely agree that the county lines for Lewisham, Deptford (Vicky Foxcroft), who pioneered emanate from many metropolitan areas, and certainly the Youth Violence Commission. not just London—they originate with organised criminal gangs in Birmingham and on Merseyside, too. I commend In Scotland, the Edinburgh study of youth transitions the Government’s approach through the national county and crime found that violent offenders are significantly lines co-ordination centre. Working between police forces more likely than non-violent young people to be victims is a nut that we really have to crack, because the county of crime and adult harassment, to be engaged in self-harm lines business model has been developed to exploit the and para-suicidal behaviour, to be drug users or regular challenges that police forces and other agencies experience alcohol users and, for girls in particular, to be from a in working together. socially deprived background. Although, of course, I accept wholeheartedly the Andrew Rosindell: I agree with much of what the hon. point made by my hon. Friend the Member for West Lady says, but can she envisage how local people in Ham (Lyn Brown) that any young person can be at risk Havering feel? We are part of Essex, yet we are lumped of exploitation, it is in the public good for such vulnerable into Greater London. My hon. Friend the Member for young people to receive targeted interventions at a Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) proudly speaks of 150 new young age, rather than to see them fall into the costly policemen for Essex, but people who come to Romford criminal justice system and their lives wasted. We hope will realise that we are Essex, rather than London. to see significantly more action from the Government However, we get so few resources from the Mayor of on that. London—we really are left out. We are getting no extra policemen and far fewer resources than we need. Vicky Ford: I am a member of the Select Committee Will the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise on Science and Technology, and we have been looking Haigh) please speak to Sadiq Khan and see whether he at the evidence on early intervention. As has been will prioritise the London Borough of Havering and highlighted, there are areas of excellent practice, including give us the resources we need, or whether he will give us Manchester and, I am glad to say, Essex. Will the hon. the chance to be a unitary authority outside of the Lady look at those areas of excellent practice? I reject Greater London area so we can manage our own resources the suggestion that, somehow, this is linked to cuts. Our and keep our communities safe? good practice in delivering early intervention helps to make the difference. Louise Haigh: I am sure Chelmsford has received both policemen and policewomen. I am sure the Mayor Louise Haigh: I heartily recommend that the hon. of London will be watching this debate closely, but Lady reads the Home Office’s own analysis, which I commit to passing the hon. Gentleman’s remarks suggests that cuts to neighbourhood policing and early on to him. intervention have played a part in the rise of serious 933 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 934 violence, but of course I accept that some excellent As the Bill is considered in Committee, we wish to work is going on throughout the country. That is exactly explore the concerns, mentioned by my right hon. Friend the point I am making: we need a proper evidence-based the Member for Delyn (David Hanson) earlier,of retailers analysis of that work to make sure that we roll out the and the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers successful pilots. about the offences imposed on retailers. Let me turn to the possession and sale of corrosives. We welcome the move to clarify the law. In March, the David Hanson: As the chair of the USDAW group of Sentencing Council explicitly listed acid as a potentially MPs—I declare that interest—I welcome that commitment. dangerous weapon, but it is welcome that that is made I was greatly encouraged by the fact that the Home clear in the legislation. Nevertheless, concerns remain Secretary said that he will look into this issue. I hope about the lack of controls on reportable substances. We that we can consider it on a cross-party basis to ensure welcome the passing of secondary legislation to designate that shop workers are free from fear and that regulations sulphuric acid as a reportable substance, but the time can be put in place to make sure that we defend those has come for a broader look at the two classes of who will have to defend the Bill’s provisions on the poisons to determine which are causing harm and should frontline, in shops. therefore be subject to stricter controls. Louise Haigh: My right hon. Friend is a long-standing The purpose of the legislation prior to the Deregulation campaigner for the rights of shop workers and I echo Act 2015 was to allow the sale of commonly used his point about hoping that we can do this on a cross-party products while protecting the individual from their inherent basis. dangers. The sale of such poisons as hydrochloric, Concerns remain about the open sale of knives in ammonia, hydrofluoric, nitric and phosphoric acids smaller retail stores, which is an issue raised by my hon. was restricted to retail pharmacies and to businesses Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Vicky whose premises were on local authorities’ lists of sellers. Foxcroft). Many of the larger stores have taken steps to That situation was not perfect, but in considering reform secure knives in cabinets, but the fact that it is far too we should note that the Poisons Board preferred a third easy to steal knives from smaller stores renders much of option, between the previous system and what we have the control of knife sales ineffective. today, which would have designated as regulated all poisons listed as reportable substances, meaning that It was surprising to see that higher education institutions they could be sold only in registered pharmacies, with have been omitted from the extension of possession buyers required to enter their details. offences, given that they were considered in the consultation earlier this year. The justification that the Government The Government have conceded the point that some gave for the proposal then was, I think, right, so I am acids that are currently on open sale are dangerous and interested to hear why higher education institutions so should not be sold to under-18s. Schedule 1 lists have been omitted from the Bill. hydrochloric acid and ammonia as two such examples, On firearms, the laws in the UK are among the but we know that only one in five acid attacks are toughest in the world, but there is concern that restricted conducted by under-18s. That means that four in five supply might be leading to the repurposing of obsolete attackers will be free to purchase reportable substances firearms, meaning that law enforcement must be alive to despite the clear evidence of harm. Of the 408 reported the changing nature of firearms use. There has been a acid attacks, ammonia was used in 69 incidents. In the significant rise in the use of antique guns that have been light of that, will the Government conduct a full review repurposed to commit serious crime: 30% of the guns of the designation of reportable substances and bring used in crime in 2015-16 were of obsolete calibre. The forward regulations to re-designate those causing clear repurposing of handguns designed to fire gas canisters, harm? and of imitation weapons, has grown in the past 10 years. We note that the Government have failed to extend to We intend to press the Government on whether the laws corrosive substances the specific provisions on the possession surrounding decommissioned firearms, which are not of knives in schools. There can surely be no justification, subject to the Firearms Act 1968, need to be strengthened. beyond a reasonable defence, for the possession of The availability of firearms has been shown to be corrosive substances on a school premises. If we are to increasing through the legal-to-illegal route, so we very send a message that the possession of corrosive substances much support the Government’s proposals. will be treated with the same seriousness as the possession of knives, it should follow that the provisions that apply Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): My hon. Friend in respect of knives in schools are extended to acid. is making a powerful case, but as someone who has recently renewed their shotgun licence, I should say that On knife possession, the measures on remote sales that is a very thorough process. I would not want the and residential premises are important, but a cursory wrong impression to be given of people who shoot for internet search demonstrates the easy availability of a sport—I shoot only clays; I do not shoot animals—because wide range of weapons that are terrifying in their familiarity: it is a very responsible sport. knives disguised as credit cards and as bracelets; weapons designed with the explicit purpose to harm and to conceal. With the increasing use of such weapons and Louise Haigh: My hon. Friend brings his own personal the widespread use of machetes in certain parts of the experience to the debate and makes an important point. country, we wish to explore with the Government what I am sure that will be heard in Committee. further action can be taken to bear down on such Finally, we believe that the Bill is a missed opportunity pernicious weapons, and how apps and platforms on for victims. The Conservative party manifestos in 2015 which such weapons are made readily available can be and 2017 promised to enshrine in law the rights of held to account. victims, a group too often neglected by the criminal 935 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 936

[Louise Haigh] increasing number of homeless children and children in care. As a result, I hope that we can improve on the justice system. With crime surging and the perpetrators measures in the Bill to begin to tackle the root causes of of crime more likely than ever to escape justice, the Bill this growing epidemic. Violent crime is a contagious should have gone further and looked to strengthen the disease that is infecting communities across our nation. rights of victims of crime. Without concerted political will and sustained Government investment, we will continue to see many more unnecessary Vicky Ford: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way yet tragedies. again. On the point about repurposing or reactivating deactivated firearms, will she mention for the record 2.49 pm that of course the reactivation of a deactivated firearm is in itself a criminal act? Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): This is a substantial Bill that has been published only relatively recently. Louise Haigh: Yes, and I was not trying to suggest After today’s debate, I shall continue to look into some otherwise, but, as I have laid out, the number of crimes of the points that have been raised with me about the using repurposed weapons has increased significantly Bill, as clearly some need further investigation, particularly over the past 10 years, so it is clear that in considering those in relation to guns, as we have heard from some of the Bill we should look into how we can restrict the my hon. Friends. availability of decommissioned weapons. There is clearly a problem with violent crime, knife crime and the horrific acid attacks that we have all Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): On the heard about. There are many things that I would like to subject of a victims law, Sharon Fearon is the mother of see us do to curb those terrible crimes. The shadow Shaquan, a young boy who was murdered in my Minister knows that I totally agree with her about constituency, and there was never a conviction in that police numbers. That would be a good place to start. We case. Sharon and I met Minister after Minister, including could also stop releasing prisoners automatically halfway the Attorney General, and the one thing we were promised through their sentences, and then giving them scandalous was that there would be a victims law and that their 28-day fixed-term recalls when they reoffend. We could voices would be heard. stop faffing around and interfering with the police on stop and search and let the police get on with their job. Louise Haigh: My hon. Friend has done sterling work We could also ensure that much tougher sentences are over the past three years on youth violence, and particularly handed down by our courts in the first place to persistent on the rights of victims, and her work is one of the and serious offenders. reasons we think it is so important to strengthen the This Bill is clearly the Government’s attempt to do rights of victims through this Bill. I hope that we can do something. I just hope, as I do with all Bills, that there that on a cross-party basis, given the promises that were are no unintended consequences. One thing that strikes made in the 2015 and 2017 Conservative manifestos. me as a possible example of that is the intention to We would like to see a recognition that the rights of prevent online and remote retailers being able to deliver victims should be paramount, so we want consideration knives to residential premises. That means that people to be given to the introduction of an independent will have to pick up knives themselves, and in an age of advocate, in line with the recommendations of the increased internet shopping, this will reverse that trend, Victims’ Commissioner, to help victims of serious crime forcing the general public to collect their own knives to navigate the range of services in the aftermath of a and somehow get them home. I sincerely hope that serious crime. With fewer than one in five violent crimes ordinary, decent, law-abiding people do not get caught resulting in a charge, we will seek to legally entrench a up in any possession charges for, for example, forgetting victim’s right to a review of a decision by the police or to remove the knife for a few days after purchase, and the Crown Prosecution Service not to bring criminal finding that they have no legal, lawful authority to be in charges or to discontinue a case. With homicide rates possession of the blade. surging, Labour will also seek to provide national standards The present situation is that if the knife is being for the periodic review of homicide cases, because many delivered, it goes from the shop or warehouse straight families are deeply concerned at how cases can often be to someone’s home, so this is currently not an issue in left to gather dust, with nobody brought to justice. these circumstances. Conversely, it also seems to me to In the debate around serious violence, it is vital that be a very handy possible excuse for someone caught in the rights of victims are not forgotten. The aftermath of possession of a blade: a person just needs to buy a knife such an incident is traumatic and disorienting, with every day, and if they ever get stopped they can say that victims who are struggling to deal with their own personal they have just bought it, as they could not buy it online, trauma forced to navigate the at times baffling criminal and then, presumably, they have a legal defence for justice system. As the number of victims of serious carrying it. incidents is growing, now is the time to strengthen their Knives are very difficult to control, because they are rights. everywhere. How many knives are in each and every I confirm again that we support the measures before household? That will not change. Knives will always be us and will seek to be as constructive as possible in very accessible indeed. There is not really any need for enhancing them. I hope that as deliberations on the Bill anyone under the age of 18 to buy an average knife, as continue, we can have a full debate about adverse childhood they will already easily be able to get hold of one if they experiences and the consequent policy considerations, so wish. What we can and must do is crack down on such as trauma-informed policing and schooling, and those who think that it is a good idea to carry them about the implications of school exclusions and the around with a view to using them in an attack, or 937 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 938 defending themselves from an attack. On this point, I Philip Davies: Absolutely. I could not agree more have some rare praise for the knife crime sentencing with my hon. Friend. guidelines, which, as I understand it, have been amended recently and will increase the starting point for possession Mr John Hayes rose— of a blade to about six months’ custody. Bearing that in mind, the sentences proposed in the Philip Davies: I will give way briefly to my right hon. Bill for actions that are currently perfectly legal—in Friend and then I will make some progress because I relation to traders for non-compliance after this Bill know that other people wish to speak. becomes law—also range up to 51 weeks. Although I appreciate that that is a maximum, I am not sure that Mr Hayes: In the same spirit as my hon. Friend the these offences are in anything like the same league. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), I say that Perhaps more pertinently, we were told, just the other the key thing is that the criminal justice system must be day when we were discussing the sentences for those retributive. This is not about treating people who are who attack emergency service workers, that it was right sick, but about punishing people who are guilty. Until that the maximum should be set at a year. Therefore, we send out that signal from this place, the general giving 51 weeks to a trader for posting a knife to a public will believe, with cause, that we do not understand residential address and also to someone for attacking what they know to be happening in their communities. an emergency service worker does not necessarily sit well with me. Philip Davies: My right hon. Friend is absolutely Let me turn now to threatening offences with knives right. We hear very little in this place about people and offensive weapons. I should say in passing that the being punished for committing crimes, but there is House should realise that, in terms of sentencing on nothing wrong with it. Again, on these kinds of issue, knives, 40% of knife possession offences attracted a this House is completely out of touch with the general prison sentence—therefore 60% did not—and 62% of public in their views on law and order, sentencing and offences of threatening with a knife resulted in custody. the criminal justice system, but my right hon. Friend, as Again, many offences of threatening someone with a usual, is not. knife—38%—do not result in a custodial sentence. In 2016, somebody with 14 previous knife offences was I think that there is a quite an important drafting still not sent to prison for committing a further knife mistake in the Bill, and the House of Commons Library offence. seems to agree with me. Clause 26 amends the two Acts dealing with the offence of threatening with a knife and Lyn Brown: I am listening carefully to what the hon. changes the test regarding the level of physical harm Gentleman is saying. I know that he will hear me when I likely to result from the knife. I welcome that. I certainly tell him that, in my constituency and in other similar welcome the thrust of what this clause seeks to do. As constituencies, some young people carry, unfortunately, the clause is worded, it will still leave in law the definition because they are afraid. Simply brandishing a knife of violence as being the original higher test. This is does not necessarily mean that that person wants to use what the Library says on this point, and hopefully the it, or that they are anything other than terrified by the Minister will take note of it. situation in which they find themselves. I am pleased “Section 139AA (4) and section 1A (2) both define the term that our courts are showing some discretion. I urge him ‘serious physical harm’, which forms part of the current wording to consider carefully where he is going with this. of the offences set out in section 139AA and section 1A. However, the term ‘serious physical harm’ is not used in the proposed new Philip Davies: Where I am going is to make this point: wording for the offence as set out in clause 26, and would instead somebody who had 14 previous knife offences and who be replaced by the term ‘physical harm’. Clause 26 does not set out any particular definition for the term ‘physical harm’, nor was then convicted of another knife offence should be does it amend or remove the existing definition of ‘serious physical sent to prison. The hon. Lady might not agree with harm’ in sections 139AA (4) and section 1A (2).” that—that is her prerogative—but she will find herself in a minority on that particular view. I do not know what the Government’s intention is here. If they want to define the new term “physical harm”, I hope the Minister will listen carefully to my next the existing wording in sections 1139AA (4) and 1A (2) point. Serious offences with knives and offensive weapons, would need to be amended to set out a suitable definition. not necessarily trading offensive weapons, should come If they want to leave the new term undefined for the within the unduly lenient sentence scheme. Perhaps that courts to interpret, the existing wording in those measures is something that could be addressed in this Bill. I also that I mentioned should be removed altogether. wish to support an extension of the principle that committing a subsequent similar offence means a I hope that the Minister will go away and look at this, mandatory sentence. I would like to see a sentencing because I think that there has been a genuine mistake. I escalator, which means that every time a person is think I know what the Government are trying to do, recommitted for the same offence they get a higher and they have half done it, but they have not squared sentence than they received the previous time. the circle. I want to see a rare outbreak of common sense with Andrew Rosindell: Very quickly,I wholeheartedly endorse regard to criminal justice legislation. Clause 27 will everything that my hon. Friend is saying. Does he agree extend the “threatening with a knife” offence to further that there must be a deterrent? If there is no deterrent, educational establishments. Although that is a welcome the crimes will carry on being committed and there will step, it does not go nearly far enough as far as I am be no end to this. The punishment must fit the crime, concerned. I will be tabling amendments to replace this and people must be deterred from committing these clause to make it an offence to threaten somebody with acts of violence. a knife anywhere. 939 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 940

[Philip Davies] The trouble is that the various departmental bubbles do not always appreciate the real world. I know of I cannot for the life of me see why someone who real-life, actual cases where people should have been threatens somebody with a knife should not be prosecuted charged with threatening with a knife, but they could for this offence, regardless of where the offence takes not be charged because it did not happen in a public place. Currently, it has to be in a public place or on place. The alternative charges to which we are referred school premises, and the Bill will extend that to further do not attract the same sentence as threatening with a education premises. But why should it not apply to all knife, and therefore do not reflect the seriousness of the premises? Why is threatening somebody with a knife an offence. offence only if it is in a public place, school premises or Just one example was of a man in a hostel who a further education establishment? Threatening somebody threatened a female member of staff with a knife and with a knife should be an offence wherever it happens— had to be dealt with by an armed response unit. That surely that is common sense—but the law is not being must have been particularly terrifying, given that the extended in that way. member of staff concerned knew only too well of the I am afraid that I am firmly of the belief that the man’s previous violent record, as the hostel was housing Ministry of Justice has needlessly tied itself in knots him on release from a prison sentence for violence. As over this issue for years. When the offence of threatening the hostel was not a public place or a school, the offence with a knife was introduced, it included a defence of of threatening with a knife could not be used by the lawful possession of the knife. This was clearly ludicrous Crown Prosecution Service. I understand that this was and would have seriously affected convictions. Would specifically confirmed by the prosecutor when the case anyone at the Ministry of Justice listen? No. How can came to court. An offence with a six-month maximum the possession of a knife be a defence for threatening penalty was substituted and, with the man’s guilty plea, somebody with that knife? But the Ministry of Justice the maximum sentence available to the court was four would not listen. I am not a lawyer—I say that with months. This would have been avoided if the law had some pride—yet, even with a House full of legal eagles, applied to all places equally, as it quite clearly should. the Bill would have gone through with this glaring I really hope that I will get some cross-party support drafting error, which seems to have arisen because the for this amendment so that we can make a positive legislation on possession of a knife has simply been change to the Bill. I am not, perhaps, always known as copied and pasted, with the “threatening” bit added someone who unites the House—at least, not with me, instead. Clearly, lawfully carrying the knife is a defence but sometimes against me—but on this occasion there is in the case of possession, but it should never have been not actually a great deal for people to disagree about. a defence for threatening with that knife. There may be some resistance from civil servants, who In desperation, I went to see the then Prime Minister, do not like any ideas other than the ones that they have David Cameron. It was only when he agreed, weighed in come up with themselves, but I would like to hear, in the and overruled the Ministry of Justice that the Bill was real world, just one good argument for not taking this thankfully changed before it was too late. People can opportunity to change the Bill in this small way, but in a check the record; it is absolutely true. That is why I have way that would make the law much better and safer for a very keen interest in this particular area of legislation. many of our constituents. The other glaring omission, which is quite possibly a Threatening somebody with a knife is a serious offence throwback to the same original bad drafting, is that the that we should crack down on. It should not make any offence is not committed in private premises. Possessing difference where the act of threatening with a knife a knife in the home is clearly perfectly fine and legal— takes place, so I hope that my amendment will be naturally. But why should it not be an offence to threaten accepted in due course. with a knife in a domestic context? In a written question The Minister and I have spoken. I very much appreciate last November, I asked the then Secretary of State for the time that she has spent with me on this issue, but the Home Department I would welcome a commitment on the Floor of the “if she will extend the offence of threatening with a knife to House that she will look seriously at this again. I hope incidents taking place on private property.” that she will think twice before peddling a civil service The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, standard reply, which I am sure that she would never my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle do, but which I am sure the civil servants would always (Victoria Atkins), who is in her place today, responded: encourage her to do. She must look at this matter “It is already an offence to threaten someone with a knife herself. If she does, I am sure that she will see that this is whether in public or on private property.” a very sensible amendment, which would make a big Well, if we read this provision literally, it clearly is not. difference to the Bill. I followed up with a letter. As the Government seemed 3.5 pm to think that that was already an offence, I hoped that when they realised that it was not, they would be keen Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and to make it one. Alas, it was not so simple. The latest line Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): On behalf of the Scottish seems to be to say that there are other offences that can National party, let me welcome the Bill. We certainly be charged. Well, I know that. Thanks to the Public support the broad principles behind it and fully support Order Act 1986 there are actually more offences that its Second Reading. The Bill will help to reduce the can be charged in a public place. Yet this was not a possession and use of weapons, including corrosive reason to stop the offence of threatening with a knife in substances, so we look forward to engaging with the a public place becoming law, so why should it stop the Secretary of State and his team as it progresses through offence of threatening somebody with a knife in a the House. As is evident from the Bill, there has already private place becoming law? been extensive and constructive engagement between 941 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 942 the Government here and the Scottish Government, of a knife was increased in March 2016 from four years’ reflecting the fact that these issues are a mixture of imprisonment to five years’ imprisonment. People who devolved and reserved matters. are convicted of a crime of violence in Scottish courts The dramatic rise in crimes related to noxious or are now more likely to receive a custodial sentence than corrosive substances is appalling, with 454 occurring in they were 10 years ago. The average length of custodial London alone during 2016. But while London is currently sentences imposed for knife crimes has more than doubled the epicentre of this horrendous new form of crime, over the last decade. Ultimately, though, we cannot gruesome incidents involving the use of such substances arrest and imprison our way out of these problems. have ruined lives right across the UK, including through The Secretary of State explained some of the new an attack in my constituency that left three men with work that the UK Government are undertaking to life-changing burns. It is extraordinary to think that the prevent knife crime and to stop people carrying knives UK now has one of the highest rates of acid attacks in in the first place. Wewelcome any emphasis on prevention. the world, and a distinct feature of the issue in the UK As the shadow Minister said, evidence-based investment seems to be its close connection to gang culture. in violence reduction programmes, especially for young We welcome moves to clamp down on how these people, has long been a key focus for the Scottish substances are obtained and used, especially the ban on Government. They include the No Knives, Better Lives sales to under-18s of the most concentrated and dangerous youth engagement programme, the national violence corrosive substances, and restrictions on how such reduction unit, the Mentors in Violence Prevention substances can be delivered. We particularly welcome programme, and the use of community-based officers the offence of possession in a public place, given concerns who engage with and support students and staff in that corrosive substances may be becoming more widely schools as part of the community policing service. That used in attacks because they represent a so-called “safe” work has thankfully seen the number of young people weapon to carry for those who are looking to commit a under 18 in Scotland who are convicted of handling an violent crime, as opposed to carrying a weapon that offensive weapon fall from 430 in 2007-08 all the way already attracts a custodial sentence. down to 91 in 2016-17. But every young person carrying a knife, and every person who is a victim of a knife When we debated corrosive substances in Westminster crime, is one too many; that is why we will support and Hall in December last year, I welcomed the interim engage constructively with this Bill. measures that the Government had implemented while their consultation was under way. During that debate, On firearms, I have listened with interest to the we also explored the options open to the Government reasoning behind the Government’s proposals to extend on how best to tackle corrosive substances. As well as the ban on certain firearms and firearms accessories. I the measures that the Government have outlined in the am sympathetic to what they say, but we will reserve Bill, other possibilities included identifying the most final judgment until we hear evidence in Committee. harmful corrosive substances that are currently only The final word must be with the victims, as ultimately considered reportable under the Poisons Act 1972 and they are who the Bill is all about. Every MP will have reclassifying them as regulated substances. That would known constituents who have been affected by the mean that members of the public would require a tragedy of corrosive substance crimes or knife crimes. licence to purchase some substances. Assuming that the Clearly, we all want to do everything we can so that the Bill receives its Second Reading, it would be worth number of victims becomes as close to zero as we can returning to that issue in Committee so that we can explore get. Prevention is the best response and it must be our what role that alternative scheme might still have. priority.Making it more difficult to obtain these substances There are other detailed issues that we want to explore, and weapons is an important part of that, and we are such as whether the Bill properly covers all situations therefore happy to give our support to the Bill. that we would want it to, including the supply of substances that does not involve payment. The Bill currently seems 3.11 pm focused on the sale of substances, so I am not sure James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): whether the offence would cover cases in which there is I rise to support the Bill and its proposed legislative no financial consideration. None the less, the Bill’s changes. I shall focus particularly on knife crime and broad thrust is certainly welcome. preventive measures, notwithstanding the concerns raised We also welcome the broad thrust of the changes that by colleagues about the possible unintended consequences are being introduced in relation to knives. Members do of some of the firearms measures. I am particularly not need me to rehearse the tragic consequences that pleased that action is being taken on zombie knives and knife crimes are all too often inflicting on our citizens. corrosive substances. I pay tribute to the work of the We particularly welcome moves to put in place further Express & Star newspaper in the west midlands, which safeguards regarding the purchase of knives remotely has been relentless in its campaign for action on knife so that existing laws against sales to young people can crime, and particularly on zombie knives. no longer be circumvented. The requirement for adequate Like my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip age verification checks for online sales could be particularly Davies), I am also especially pleased about the Government’s important. Indeed, the then Justice Secretary in Scotland proposals in clause 26 which, as he outlined, change the wrote to the UK Government back in January 2017 to definition of what we mean by the threat posed by raise concerns about the online sale of knives and the somebody with an offensive weapon. I proposed such a need for a joined-up approach, and that is what is measure at Prime Minister’s questions almost five years happening through the Bill. ago following the killing of a schoolgirl on the No. As the Secretary of State said, it is already an offence 9 bus coming out of Birmingham to a school in my to sell knives to anyone under the age of 18, including constituency. In principle, tightening up that definition, online. The maximum penalty in Scotland for possession notwithstanding some of the concerns that my hon. 943 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 944

[James Morris] That does not make them safe. It does not mean that they will not be involved in gang culture at some point Friend raised about the wording of the clause, is a in the future. significant change that will help to ensure that people are properly sentenced for threatening behaviour while James Morris: I accept what the hon. Lady says up to using offensive weapons like knives. I very much welcome a point, although all the evidence, including the strong the insertion of clause 26 and the changes that that evidence that we see in the Government’s serious violence makes to the Prevention of Crime Act 1953. strategy, is that a lot of the kids—girls and boys—who The Bill has emerged out of the Government’s serious end up in the sorts of situations that may lead to serious violence strategy, which was published in April. That is violence have come from family situations in which they a very interesting document, because it sets out that the have been considerably traumatised, and trauma of that Government are clear that the violent crime that we see nature has led to various other consequences. We cannot in certain parts of our communities will not be solved shy away from that. just by law enforcement. Like my hon. Friend the Member Vicky Ford: When I was involved in a Select Committee for Shipley, I am an advocate of tough sentencing and inquiry into online issues, we were given evidence that people being punished for their crimes. However, I the online recruitment of children from quite stable think all Members would agree that that will not solve backgrounds is now being used to bring such children the underlying problems in some of our communities. into gangs. We need to realise that no child is immune. That approach is necessary, but it is not sufficient to deal with this problem. James Morris: I will come on to the point about social media. I am emphasising the point about kids Mr John Hayes: My hon. Friend is exactly right. As I who come from traumatised backgrounds because we said earlier,the drivers—the causes—of crime are complex, need to examine what that leads to and what its drivers as he suggests, but the way in which we deal with and are. Often it leads to such things as social exclusion, respond to crime is not incompatible with taking the school exclusion, and a cycle of behaviour that leads to kind of lines that he has recommended. Both need to be violence. This is about young people not having a stake addressed—the causes and the response. in civilised society, as we would call it, with their values, their sense of structure and the way in which they think James Morris: I thank my right hon. Friend for his about the world being derived from the gang, which is intervention. I totally agree—those things are not where the violence and fetishisation of violence comes incompatible. from. What we are seeing in some of our communities is not confined just to London. My constituency is just on Eddie Hughes: I do not want us to get stuck on this the fringe of Birmingham, and we have seen examples part of the debate—my hon. Friend is obviously keen to of the increasing use of offensive weapons in Birmingham move on—but it is important. My understanding of and other areas throughout the country. We need to be data from Brent Council is that a typical gang member careful about exaggerating the problem. The issue has is 24 years old and was arrested for the first time at 14. certainly arisen, but we must not exaggerate its Given that profile, it is likely that they will have had a consequences. However, we must ask some difficult troubled childhood, leading to a troubled adolescence. questions about what leads young people, in particular, James Morris: My hon. Friend is right. The evidence— towards gangs, and what I would call the fetishisation again, this is from the Government’s serious violence of weapons. What is leading to that, and to this outbreak strategy—is that 40% of gang members have been identified of serious violent crime,in certain parts of our communities? with a severe behavioural problem by the age of 12. The Government’s serious violence strategy is quite That significant number allows us to understand how clear that one of the drivers is drugs. It says, in particular, we might address some of the underlying behaviours that increases in the dealing of crack cocaine and its that lead to violence and the targeted approaches that supply chains are leading to gang violence. We need to are necessary to deal with that. be serious about addressing some of the issues of organised drug crime. As Members will know, I have been a long-term campaigner for improving mental health care in this The reason why young people are turning to weapons country.The Government have made significant progress and violence is a complex picture, and we need to face on improving mental health care for children and up to that complexity, notwithstanding the need for adolescents, but we need to do more, specifically by stronger sentencing. We need to look at issues around focusing on this cohort of vulnerable children, especially unstable family backgrounds. A lot of the kids who end those who have faced trauma and come from looked-after up being part of gangs come from extremely unstable backgrounds. backgrounds. Will Quince: My hon. Friend mentions vulnerable Lyn Brown: I agree with much of what the hon. children. In so many cases, they are 12, 13 or 14 years Gentleman is saying, but may I warn him about the idea old. Does he think the answer is to label them criminals that unstable family backgrounds are what leads to or actually to see them for the victims they are? If we do young people being groomed? I know of a police officer not criminalise them, they will have life chances that do who is one of two parents and has a problem with his not lead to just a continuation of criminality. child being groomed and taken into the county lines orbit. I really do not want parents to believe that their James Morris: My hon. Friend makes a good point. children will be safe because they have two parents and There is a balance to be struck. As I said at the beginning even go to a Catholic church on a Sunday afternoon. of my speech, we need a very tough law enforcement 945 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 946 framework in this area. The evidence from the police is in London has increased by some 600%, and my that they want that, because it provides a deterrent. constituency is something of a hotspot. This time last However, he is exactly right that the balancing item in year, the fear in my constituency about acid attacks was the argument, as expressed by my right hon. Friend palpable. I heard about constituents of all ages and the Member for South Holland and The Deepings backgrounds who were afraid to leave their homes (Mr Hayes), is that we need to understand the underlying because the perception was that these acid attacks were drivers. That is why, as the Government recognise in random. It was a crisis, and it needed a strong response their strategy, we need to focus on prevention and from Government. I called for that, as did my right hon. diversion strategies that take young people away from Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), the criminal justice system. One weakness of the criminal and I am happy to see that many of the specific measures justice system, for historical reasons, is that it can lead I called for are in the Bill. to a self-reinforcing cycle whereby young people get Most importantly, the Bill takes a step forward in trapped in the system and cannot escape it. recognising that corrosives are just as dangerous as knives. They can do just as much harm physically and Mr John Hayes: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for emotionally, so they should receive the same kind of giving way a second time. This dilemma has bedevilled legal and police response. The introduction of a clear youth justice in particular since the 1960s. The Children and specific offence of possession of a corrosive substance and Young Persons Act 1969 which, broadly speaking, in public should make the job of the police and the took a treatmentist approach to juvenile criminals, led courts easier in catching and prosecuting those who to all kinds of favourable treatment for them, with carry acid as a weapon. intermediate treatment orders being the classic example. The ban on the sale of corrosive products to children That essentially meant that victims were devalued in the is also very welcome. Although I accept the arguments system, and we emphasised the individual criminal, for the age restriction of 18, I join colleagues in asking rather than the event—the crime. The victim of a violent whether a higher age restriction might be appropriate. I crime is more interested in what has been done to them also think that the Bill Committee should look closely than who has done it. at the broader issue of supply, and not just sale. Would James Morris: My right hon. Friend makes some fair it be better to introduce an offence of supplying a child points, but we have to get the balance right in our with acid in an unsafe way, not just selling in exchange approach because, as he will recognise, there are a lot of for money, which I suggested last year? It is important complex drivers. to get this right because some acid attacks, I am told, I am conscious that other Members want to speak are revenge, punishments or even initiation rites for and I have taken a number of interventions, so I will junior members of criminally run gangs. If an older draw my remarks to a conclusion. I support the measures man gives acid to a child and tells them to commit an in the Bill to tighten up the law enforcement regime for offence or an attack, will the act of giving be covered by offensive weapons. However, we must reflect on the an offence in the Bill? Can we prosecute the man who Government’s serious violence strategy, which recognises has given the acid to the child as effectively as we would that the only way we will solve this problem is by taking if he had taken money for it? Personally, I think that a multifaceted approach. Law enforcement, in and of that is a higher offence than those of unwitting sale or itself, is not going to solve the problem. Too many of not taking a salesperson’s responsibilities as seriously young people are dying in this country, and that is a as the law demands. waste of potential and human life. We have to take the Over the past year, I have raised several concerns right measures to get to the bottom of why this is about online sales of corrosive products. At this time happening, and do it soon. last year, people could buy 96%—I stress, 96%— concentrated sulphuric acid in large bottles from Amazon Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I for about five quid each, with no checks. There is still a have now to announce the result of today’s deferred requirement for online sellers, like all sellers, to monitor Division. In respect of the question relating to healthcare suspicious purchases under the Poisons Act 1972, but and associated professions, the Ayes were 467 and the the Government have failed to convince me that they Noes were 2, so the Ayes have it. can implement or enforce this online, so I welcome the [The Division list is published at the end of today’s ban on home deliveries of corrosive products. I think debates.] that that will take us where we need to be. I hope that it will indirectly ban these sales, because if we cannot make online sales safe, they simply have to be stopped 3.25 pm to protect communities. Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): Today I am going to This Bill is a step forward. It will help to ensure that address the corrosive substances provisions of the Bill sellers of these products have face-to-face contact with and welcome the progress that has been made. Had I buyers and can ask them questions. There is really no realised the direction that the debate was going to take, other way that the law could work. It was always a bit of I would have sought to speak for longer and to discuss a joke to suggest that online sellers could monitor the wider concerns that have been raised today. I have suspicious purchases, and I think we got that message been seeking a Westminster Hall debate on those wider across in our debate before Christmas. issues, and if any other Members wanted to join me in I hope this change will make suspicious transaction trying to secure a debate in the dying days of this term, I reporting more workable, but putting a greater emphasis would be delighted. on reporting by retailers only increases the need for Last year,there were 85 attacks using corrosive substances proper guidance and for the Home Office to monitor in Newham and 468 in the whole of London. In the five and enforce the legal requirement. Retailers have to years since the start of 2012, the number of acid attacks understand that there is a real chance that the Government 947 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 948

[Lyn Brown] 3.34 pm Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): I will take action against them if they fail. In written am grateful to have caught your eye, Madam Deputy questions, I have asked Home Office Ministers whether Speaker, in this important and welcome Second Reading, the Department has a programme of test purchases, although I am sorry that I have to be here. I say that but—bless them—I keep being given vague answers to because I have had extensive discussions with the my questions. I would like to hear about this issue from Minister on a contentious clause, which proposes the the Minister today, or if she wants, she could write to banning of weapons with a muzzle energy of more than me about it. 13,600 joules or 10,000 foot-pounds. In this country, Sir Edward Davey: The hon. Lady is making an there are about a million firearms and shotgun certificate excellent speech. She has done a lot of campaigning on holders, who legally hold about 2 million weapons. this issue, and I congratulate her on it. The point she is They are some of the most law-abiding people in this making is absolutely crucial to ensure that the legislation country; only 0.2% of all recorded crime is committed is absolutely effective. Trading standards departments with legally held firearms. I seek to persuade the House in local authorities up and down the country have been and the Ministers on the Front Bench that the proposal the butt of quite a lot of cuts because councils can get is wholly disproportionate, lacks an evidence base and away with it. Unless we support trading standards penalises a group of very law-abiding citizens. departments and officers, and back the Chartered Trading Standards Institute, we will not be able to detect such Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): My hon. crimes. We will not have the scale of test purchasing Friend is right about this. It is clear from listening to a that we need to make sure that retailers are acting few words from him and to the previous speaker that responsibly. the Bill needs a lot of work in Committee. Properly evidenced crimes are clearly being missed by the Bill, Lyn Brown: I absolutely agree with the right yet we are taking out legal protection against a group of hon. Gentleman. As so many others have gone outwith people who have never done anything wrong and never the Bill, I suggest that the Government could at the will, and who have weapons that are absolutely impractical same time look at the minimum wage legislation, for any sort of criminal activity. This is just badly because that would give my constituents an awful lot of thought-out legislation. help. The Government could have taken a different approach Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I am grateful to my hon. to the Bill. In my speech before Christmas, I argued that Friend for that, as he has made some of the points I several corrosive substances need to be brought under wanted to make in my speech. When he examines the greater control, including ammonia, sodium hydroxide record, he will see that my right hon. Friend the Home and hydrofluoric acid, as well as sulphuric acid. I am Secretary has, at the Dispatch Box, given me a pledge reassured that all those substances have been included that he will undertake extensive discussions with any in schedule 1 as corrosive products. The list in schedule 1 right hon. or hon. colleague, or any stakeholder in this is new, and does not match the lists in parts 1 to 4 of matter,who wishes to involve themselves in those discussions schedule 1A to the Poisons Act. The Minister could use to see whether we can find a more sensible way forward this Bill or a statutory instrument to move more poisons between now and Committee. or chemicals into parts 1 or 2 of schedule 1A to the Poisons Act, meaning that they would require people to Bill Wiggin: I am sorry if I was too harsh. have an official licence and photo ID before purchase. That would prevent us having to rely so heavily on retail Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: My hon. Friend is not staff to spot suspicious purchases, and it would restrict too harsh. I am simply saying to him that there is these chemicals to the hands of trained professionals concern among Government Members, and it is worthy who, I presume, will use them safely. of further discussion. Sulphuric acid has now been moved into part 1 of schedule 1A to the Poisons Act, as I and others have Sir Edward Davey: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that called for. It will require people to have a licence from some groups representing disabled shooters are concerned the end of this week, which is very welcome. My question, that this legislation may particularly affect them, although however, for the Minister is: why was that decision the Government’s equality statement says that it does made for sulphuric acid only, not for the other chemicals not? Does he have a view on that matter? I have highlighted? Why not move hydrofluoric acid into part 2 as a regulated poison? It is highly dangerous: Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I do. Of course we want as I said in the debate before Christmas, exposure on shooting to be used by every group in society; no group just 2% of the skin can kill. Why not move ammonia should in any way be excluded. I was not intending to into part 2 as well, given that ammonia was found at talk about bump stocks and the VZ58 MARS—manually 20 out of 28 crime scenes tested by the Met? Perhaps the actuated release system—proposals in the Bill. I know Department has better evidence about which chemicals that representations have been made that those semi- are being used in crimes or about those that pose a risk, automatic additions to rifles help disabled groups, but I but if so, I would argue that such a case needs to be take the view, having received representations from the made, and made transparently, during the passage of groups I represent, that such adaptations of otherwise the Bill. That only leaves me to welcome the progress bolt-action single-shot rifles, converting them into, in that this Bill represents, although I hope the Minister effect, semi-automatic rifles should be banned. After will agree with me that there are still some serious issues the horrific shootings in the United States, even President to be addressed. Trump was minded to say that they should be banned. 949 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 950

On that basis, I think Ministers are doing the right should not hold a shotgun or firearms certificate. I thing, although I accept that it might well disadvantage believe, at this moment, that people out there have some disabled people. We have to find other ways of firearms certificates who should not have. helping those groups, perhaps by adapting rifles or the places where these people shoot. Bill Wiggin: I think my hon. Friend means mental I am chairman of the all-party group on shooting health conditions, not medical conditions. Does he agree and conservation, and I work closely with all the that, happily, because of our stringent licensing system, professional shooting bodies, including the British evil terrorists are not committing crimes using legally Association for Shooting and Conservation, the held guns? Countryside Alliance and the British Shooting Sports Council. They have made lots of very professional Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: My hon. Friend has pulled representations to the Minister on this subject. I have me up: words are important in this place. What I meant also been working closely with my hon. Friend the to say was medical conditions which might include a Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), who represents mental health condition—but there are medical conditions the BSSC but could not be here for our debate because, that might mean that someone was not granted a shotgun unfortunately, he has had to attend a family funeral or firearms certificate. today. We are seeking to persuade the Minister to I want to move on to the .50 calibre weapons themselves, consider modifying the proposals. and why they are not likely to be used in a crime—and In clause 28(2), the Government propose to ban all never have been, as far as we know. weapons that have a muzzle energy greater than 13,600 joules. The Bill would put them into section 5 of Simon Hoare: A moment ago, my hon. Friend said he the Firearms Act 1968—in other words, it would make did not want to be caricatured, and that is absolutely them a prohibited weapon. There are about 200 of right. It is important for everybody to understand that those weapons—a small number—and just over 200 people, this is not a rampant, American, NRA-type debate, but probably, have a licence to use them. I will discuss where one based on evidence, fact, practical experience and the weapons should be stored, but I want to give the trying to make good law. House a sense of the sort of people who are disadvantaged by the Bill by quoting paragraph 7 of the British Shooting Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: My hon. Friend makes a Sports Council brief: really potent and timely point; I was about to demonstrate … “In fact, the Fifty Calibre Shooters Association which is why these weapons have never been implicated in any dedicated to target shooting with this calibre has its origins in the early 1980s in the USA and has over 2,500 members internationally. crime. There was one incident when one was stolen; the It is affiliated with .50 calibre target rifle shooting groups in barrel was chopped down but the gun was quickly Australia, Switzerland and the United Kingdom and, in addition recovered and never implicated in a crime. There has to regular competitions, hosts the annual World Championship in been only one other incident: more than 20 years ago, a which UK FCSA target shooters compete. The UK FCSA is a .50 calibre weapon was stolen in Northern Ireland and Home Office Approved Club, has existed as a well-respected used in the troubles and then, again, recovered. target shooting club since 1991 and has grown to a membership of over 400.” Instances of such weapons being likely to fall into the These are the sorts of people whom we are disadvantaging. wrong hands are incredibly rare. Even if they did, they As I have already said, and as I stress again to the are most unlikely ever to be used by a criminal, as I shall Minister, these are some of the most law-abiding people try to persuade the House. They are as long as the span in the country. of my arms and incredibly heavy and bulky. They demand a great deal of effort between shots. They are Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): Is my hon. simply not the criminal’s weapon of choice. The weapon Friend aware that the Government’s latest impact of choice of a criminal is likely to be something gained assessment for the Bill suggests that the measure could from the dark web or the underground. It is likely to be cost them up to £6 million—not only in compensation a sawn-off shotgun, or a revolver or pistol of some sort. for loss of weapons, but through the loss of revenue at These really heavy, clunky weapons are simply not the Government Ministry of Defence rifle ranges? weapon of choice of the criminal. In the one instance I suspect my hon. Friend the Minister will cite in her Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I am grateful to my hon. summing up, a criminal stole it, realised what they had Friend for pointing out that this is going to be expensive. got hold of and that it was not suitable to be used in a Nobody would mind the expense if it was rooted in crime, and chucked it over a hedge. public safety—that is beyond question—but, as I will seek to explain in a minute, I do not think that it is. Kwasi Kwarteng: My hon. Friend uses the phrase In case anybody gets the impression that I am a mad “weapon of choice” among criminals. Is it not an irony rifle-wielding individual, I should say that, as chair of that the criminals’ weapons of choice are already banned the all-party parliamentary group on shooting and and are held illegally? conservation, I have been working closely on making the licensing of firearms and shotguns more effective. Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: My hon. Friend is absolutely There is a serious health and safety issue at the moment right and it is very sad, when people gain pleasure from because some doctors are refusing to co-operate with using these rifles, that the Government want to effectively the police in the granting of certificates. That is completely ban them. The muzzle energy will effectively mean a unacceptable: the Firearms Act 1968 is predicated on ban on the .5 calibre. The only reason the Government the basis that somebody can be licensed to have a are banning them is that they happen to be one of the shotgun or firearm only if they are a fit and proper largest calibres. The police and the other authorities are person. If they have certain medical conditions, they saying that because they are so large they must be 951 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 952

[Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown] 3.49 pm Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I want to express dangerous. I have to tell the House that any rifle is rather more support for the Bill than the hon. Member dangerous in the wrong hands and used in the wrong for The Cotswolds (Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) did, way. A .22, the very smallest rifle, is lethal at over a mile but I will comment just on the elements that deal with if it is fired straight at somebody. All rifles need to be corrosive substances. I particularly welcome clause 5, as handled with great care and held in very secure conditions. others have, which creates the new offence of having a In summing up, the Government will, I think, cite corrosive substance in a public place. some evidence as to why these rifles need to be banned. A year ago on 21 June, in our borough of Newham, They will cite the one that was stolen and chucked over Jameel Muhktar and his cousin, Resham Khan, were the hedge with the barrel chopped off, they will cite the sprayed with acid while they were sitting in a car on the fact that one was used in the troubles in Northern way to a party celebrating her 21st birthday. As my hon. Ireland, and they will cite the fact that more high-powered Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) said in weapons are being seized by customs at our borders. her excellent speech, after that event there was a wave of But this has nothing to do with .5 calibre weapons. It revulsion and fear across the borough. Mr Speaker was has everything to do with illegal weapons, the sort of good enough to grant an Adjournment debate on 17 July, weapons of choice that, sadly, the criminal and the the intention of which was to bring forward proposals terrorist will use, but not these particular weapons. in response to that wave of fear. However, by the time we got to that debate, there had been the series of Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South incidents on 13 July, when there were six acid attacks Pembrokeshire) (Con): Does my hon. Friend not agree from the back of a moped in the space of 90 minutes that the three examples he cites are actually applicable across Hackney and Islington, and there was a lot of to pretty much any weapon, and that, if we concede on public interest in this whole issue. One of the two that point, perfectly legitimate rifles and shotguns would perpetrators involved in the attacks in Hackney and be at risk of being removed from society all together? Islington was, we know now, aged 16 at the time, and he pleaded guilty to carrying them out. Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: That is precisely the point In that Adjournment debate, at which my hon. Friend I am making. This whole thing would set a precedent: was present, we called for two specific changes to the .5 weapons today, then .60—where do we go next? Just law. The first was that the purchase of sulphuric acid because people think they might get into the wrong should require a licence, and, as she pointed out, that hands and be used by the wrong people. That is the has been done through a statutory instrument that will wrong way to govern. We should not prohibit things take effect from Sunday. My hon. Friend the Member unless there is really good evidence for doing so. for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh), in opening this I have been having discussions with Ministers. I have debate for the Opposition, argued that there should be a said that instead of banning these weapons, as there are review of the list of substances in that category under so few of them and they are able to be fired legally at so the explosive precursor regulations that require a licence few ranges by so few people, why not toughen up the to be purchased. I agree with her and I am very pleased rules on storage to make it absolutely impossible for that sulphuric acid has been added to that list, but we them ever to be stolen? If they had to be stored in an need to look at what else should be there as well. armoury, at a gun club by arrangement with the police The second change that we called for was that carrying or in a military storage by arrangement with the military, acid should be an offence, just as carrying a knife is, and storage would have to be approved by the police. There I am very pleased that that is included in clause 5. I could be alarms and CCTV in the storage and weapons thank the Minister for successfully delivering that change. would not be licensed unless the police approved places She and I would probably both have been pleased had of secure storage. That would be a much more effective the legislation been introduced a bit faster, but I am and useful way of going forward if we want to stop very pleased that it is before the House today. I am also weapons falling into the wrong hands, and would make grateful to her for keeping me and other Members it much safer for us all. informed about the progress in working up the legislation. I have some detailed questions, however. Clause 1 Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con): I agree bans the sale of corrosive products to persons under 18. with my hon. Friend 100% on the point he is making. As we have been told, the products are listed in schedule 1. One of the ranges used is in my constituency. In a Would it not be better to do that in regulations rather bizarre way, I would say that when the club is shooting than having a schedule to the Bill, so that the list can be there it is one of the safest places to be, because people added to or amended? It is unlikely that that list and are trained and know what they are doing. We should the particular concentrations that are set out in the be looking at the security and storage element, not schedule will be the last word. I am interested to know banning these weapons. how the particular list of concentrations was come up with, for example. It looks a bit arbitrary. There may Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: My hon. Friend is exactly be some reason for choosing those concentrations, right. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to look at this and if so I would like to know what it is. This looks like again. The proposals in the Bill are disproportionate. the kind of thing we sometimes chide Ministers for They are unworkable, because they are very easy to get wanting to put in regulations, but in this case I think around. They target some of the most law-abiding there could be a good case for doing it through regulations people in the country and they will not make this so that it can be changed at a later date. It seems a bit country any safer, because the criminal will use a different odd that as things stand, any change to the list of weapon of choice. substances or concentrations would require another 953 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 954

Act of Parliament, so I wonder why it has been done in There is a correlation between gang membership and that way and whether it ought to be done in regulations the use of acid as a weapon, as others have suggested. instead. The Government’s efforts to step up their response to gangs will be crucial. I welcome the establishment of Clause 5 bans having corrosive substances—not corrosive the centre in London to deal with the county lines issue products—in a public place and it tells us that a corrosive around the country. substance is a substance capable of harming human skin by corrosion. I presume that means that it covers I welcome the Bill and congratulate the Minister, but substances not on the list in schedule 1. It seems a bit I think that, alongside the Bill, an enormous amount odd to have two different definitions of “corrosive more needs to be done. substance” in two different parts of the Bill, one in schedule 1 and one defined as causing corrosive harm 4 pm to human skin. Clause 5 does not refer to schedule 1. Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con): I Does the Minister expect the police in practice to use am glad to follow the right hon. Member for East Ham schedule 1 to work out which products are covered by (Stephen Timms), who I know has very personal experience clause 5, or does she expect them to come up with a of these issues. different list? It seems a little untidy to have two definitions. As a London MP, I welcome the Bill as a vital tool in Like my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham and the fight against the kinds of violent crime that are others, I think it would be better to ban sales to under-21s, sadly increasing across the capital. While overall crime rather than under-18s. My hon. Friend the Member for continues to fall, knife crime, gun crime and homicide Sheffield, Heeley rightly suggested that the current are unfortunately on the rise, and we are seeing lives restrictions, which the Bills extends, on knives in schools torn apart by utterly senseless violence, as the age and further education colleges ought to apply to corrosive profile of both victims and perpetrators shifts lower. substances. What we already do for knives should apply Although some of that increase can be attributed to as well to acid. I would hope that that extension could improvements in police recording, changes in the illegal be made. drugs trade seem to be driving the other part of the trend. Criminal gangs have been adapting their business Acid Survivors Trust International has rightly made model to exploit previously untapped markets beyond the case that more needs to be done to address the inner London, using vulnerable young people as impact of acid attacks, which, as we all recognise, can distributors, and upping their violence and intimidation be horrifying. The number of attacks in London nearly to break into new territory. Meanwhile, there was a trebled between 2014 and 2017. I tabled a series of record number of acid attacks in London last year. I parliamentary questions last month to try to understand therefore welcome the fact that the Bill bans the sale of the economic impact of acid attacks—the cost to the the most dangerous corrosive products to under-18s, police, the cost to the health service and the cost of and criminalises the possession of corrosive substances imprisoning people who carry them out—and all received in a public place. the answer: Ministers do not know what the impacts As the fear of crime rises in tandem with those are. The Home Office does not collect national statistics trends, too many young people are choosing to arm on acid attacks. I think it should. We ought to make themselves, which is why the Bill introduces tough new that addition to the statistics collected. In April, the restrictions on the online sales of knives. It will also Department asked the National Police Chiefs’ Council become illegal to possess certain offensive weapons in to undertake a data-collection exercise on acid attacks. private, including zombie knives and knuckle-dusters. Will the Minister tell us what came out of that exercise To assist prosecutions, clause 26 amends the legal test and whether she will consider adding these figures to regarding threats made with an illegal weapon. those routinely collected by her Department? We should As many Members have pointed out, the Bill is not a have a more systematic way of knowing the scale of this panacea, and the Government recognise that. Legislation crime. and policing must be complemented by cross-agency I pay tribute to Jabed Hussain, whom I believe the working that involves schools, social services and Minister has met. He is a moped delivery driver in communities. Such a partnership lies at the heart of the London who was the victim of an acid attack and Government’s serious violence strategy, whereby Home subsequently organised other drivers into what he calls Office funding will knit together a cohesive, cross- the Workers Union London. He argues, correctly I departmental approach to violent crime. I hope that think, that changes to the law, while very welcome—and that approach will include consideration of the worrying I certainly welcome what is proposed in the Bill—will rise in school exclusions.Criminals are feeding on vulnerable not solve the problem on their own. My hon. Friend young people who are falling out of the system. With the Member for Sheffield, Heeley made this point the number of secondary permanent exclusions climbing powerfully. As Jabed Hussain points out, the scale of for the fourth consecutive year, too many students are police cuts in London has made the problem significantly being taught in pupil referral units. We need new core worse. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner herself schools to sit between mainstream schools and those has acknowledged that the cuts to police numbers have units, working hand in glove with social services to undoubtedly contributed to the surge in violent crime, support vulnerable pupils. and those cuts need to be reversed. Jabed Hussain also I am also concerned about the fact that local authorities makes the point that we are nowhere near addressing are overstretched owing to outdated assumptions about the scale of the physical and psychological damage need. My borough of Havering is dealing with the suffered by acid attack victims and their families, and fastest-growing number of children of any London that the children of victims need help, too, yet there is authority.In fulfilling statutory duties towards vulnerable nothing available for them at the moment. youngsters, the council is left with little cash proactively 955 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 956

[Julia Lopez] stabbing to death of a 15-year-old schoolboy, and knives have recently been wielded openly in the local shopping to address other problems affecting that group and their centre. families, such as addiction. Meanwhile, the pressures on The trust of a community in the responsiveness of social workers are leading to additional demand on police is vital to ensuring local intelligence is shared and police. One of my local officers says that he is now being crime kept low. That trust is being lost due to problems called more regularly to tackle matters that are best in reporting, particularly through the 101 service. The handled by trained social workers. initial problems in police response times following the The Mayor of London’s first reaction to rising violence Mayor’s tri-borough policing restructure seemed to on his watch seems always to be to blame the Government have been resolved, but the community distrust was for his funding settlement, but money cannot be a then compounded by the planned closure of Hornchurch substitute for strategy. The Mayor must turn urgently to police station. a review of performance, operations and tactics, and Without that physical presence, residents are the building of better collaborative partnerships across understandably concerned that town centres in my London to mimic the success of our mayoral team in constituency will be neglected so as to tackle the growing halving teen knife deaths between 2008 and 2011 at a problems in Romford, Barking, East Ham and elsewhere. time of budgetary constraint. None the less, I am not so In the meantime, our borough is attempting to purchase naive as to discount resourcing as a problem. More the police station from the Mayor and provide community money has been provided by the Home Office for space for police elsewhere, and the Mayor ought to be counter-terrorism duties, and the Mayor is now able to encouraging more of this kind of community partnership increase his precept substantially.There are more efficiencies work. to be found from the new technologies that are finally Finally, I offered to raise concerns put to me by being deployed. The Government must, however, constituents about the provisions in the Bill on rifles, as acknowledge that the demand on police in London is eloquently expressed by my hon. Friend the Member increasing rapidly. for The Cotswolds (Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown). One Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): As my hon. Friend resident, a retired police officer and someone who rightly notes, resourcing is an issue, but it is equally represented our country in shooting, is concerned that important to ensure that we get enough bang for our the prohibition of certain firearms is a tokenistic response buck. In that context, does she agree that putting more disproportionate to the risk. Other constituents advise police officers on bikes, which enables them to be visible that no legally owned rifle of the types this Bill prohibits but also to cover a great deal of ground—particularly in has ever been used in criminal activity despite being a constituency that is flat, such as Cheltenham—is used by target shooters for many decades. They are basically a good idea? unconvinced by the Home Office’s evidential base for this move and feel therefore that this proposed legislation Julia Lopez: That does indeed sound like, basically, a amounts to an abuse of process. I hope some of these good idea. I think everyone agrees that police visibility issues will be ironed out in Committee. is vital to maintaining the trust of the community, and Those concerns aside, however, I broadly welcome to the sharing of intelligence. the Bill in providing us with another tool to tackle The variety of issues that the police are being asked violent crime. But we must all be mindful not ever to see to tackle is becoming ever broader,and rapid demographic legislation as a cure-all. This urgent task requires the and technological changes are spreading the challenges right laws, the right policing tactics, the right resource, across more boroughs. To put it simply, we need more the right punishment and the right partnership work to resources, whether that means officers on the ground or drive this scourge from our communities. analysts who can track and understand trends. My policing team has said that one of the big problems 4.7 pm across the Met is the reduction in the number of analysts Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): I begin by thanking the at Scotland Yard who can spot where crimes are happening Minister for crime, safeguarding and vulnerability for and deploy resources accordingly. taking time out of a very busy diary to meet me recently We must also give officers the confidence that they to discuss the Bill in greater detail. The opportunity to will be backed in using the powers available to them. I raise some matters of specific concern to my constituents have raised these issues at a high level within Government was much appreciated. and encourage the Met and Home Office together to I, along with Plaid Cymru, welcome the Bill and take a firm grip and disrupt the criminal gang networks support the Government’s desire to control the purchase relentlessly.Recent media reports suggest that the takeover and possession of offensive weapons by those who, of the crack cocaine market by Albanian mafia is partly frankly, have no legitimate reason to have them. The responsible for a new wave of violence, so how are we Minister will be aware, however, of some of my concerns, working with authorities in Albania and other countries particularly about the unintended consequences this to ensure the swift deportation of violent criminals legislation might have for legitimate uses of some knives from these shores? and firearms by responsible citizens, and I shall focus On a parochial level, I am concerned that the Mayor’s my remarks on those points. policing assumptions are not keeping up with the change Like the Minister, I represent a rural constituency in under way in London’s suburbs. It is not surprising that which many small businesses and tradesmen use knives the fear of crime in my constituency is high, even if to carry out their professions. Some of them have violent crime levels are comparatively low.In neighbouring contacted me recently to express their concerns about Romford, where many teenagers from my constituency the impact that these new restrictions, particularly on shop and socialise, we saw at the weekend the needless the online sale of some knives, might have on them. 957 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 958

In a rural constituency such as Ceredigion, it is often that any changes to the regulations are effective in not practical, and certainly not always easy, for people reducing gun crime while not punishing responsible to travel to a designated location to verify their identity, firearms certificate holders unnecessarily. The aim must as opposed to receiving a delivery of tools at a home be to enhance public safety by reducing gun crime, so it address, for example. This would pose specific difficulties is important that any assessments suggesting that such for some smaller businesses as well. changes will realise that aim should be published in full It is important that, in combating knife crime, legislation detail for scrutiny. targets specific blades and offenders, and that its impact I would like to conclude by referring to the horrific on responsible users is mitigated as much as possible, be incidents we have seen all too often in recent years that they woodsmen and farmers, Scout group leaders and have made the corrosive substances aspect of the Bill so outdoor educators, chefs or even those participating in vital. The rise in the number of instances in which acids historical re-enactments, all of whom have contacted or corrosive products have been weaponised is frankly me to express concerns. I would therefore be grateful if frightening. The availability of those products has made the Minister elaborated on how the Bill will mitigate the them a weapon of choice for those of wicked intent, impact of these changes on responsible users, to provide with devastating consequences. It saddens me that, in reassurance that it will target the unjustifiable use of the 21st century, we find ourselves having to discuss offensive blades, but still allow others to be used responsibly ways to prevent such acts of barbarity and of stopping for justifiable work or leisure-related purposes. individuals using otherwise legitimate products to inflict I also want to echo some of the arguments made devastating harm on others, but we are where we are. It about the need to take a proportionate approach to is entirely appropriate—and indeed, incumbent on the changes to firearms regulations. It is appropriate that Government—to legislate to try to prevent such hideous those who hold firearms certificates are rigorously assessed crimes from taking place. by the police and subjected to medical assessments, I have asked for assurances from the Government on background checks and continuous monitoring. Firearms the proportionality of the proposed measures on knives of any calibre and description are dangerous if they fall and firearms, but let me be clear that I welcome their into the wrong hands. Concerns have already been efforts to control the number of knives, firearms and expressed—I will not go into them again in too much corrosive substances on our streets. There is absolutely detail—that some of the proposed changes, including no reason for an individual to have a zombie knife, a those to muzzle velocity regulations, will unfairly impact flick-knife or a knuckleduster, or for them to carry acid legitimate law-abiding firearms holders such as target on our streets. Those items have no purpose other than shooters without achieving greater public safety or reducing to inflict as much damage as possible, and I therefore gun crime. Will the Minister reconsider those concerns welcome the Bill’s move to tighten the law in relation to in Committee and provide greater detail on the justification their possession. for those changes? More must be done to tackle the root causes of such Alex Chalk: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman crimes, with greater support being given to those who has, like me, received representations from legitimate feel the need to carry a weapon in the first place, and to sportspeople saying that they would be open to considering tackle the decline in police numbers. Those matters are further proposals such as additional storage security perhaps beyond the scope of the Bill, but we as legislators measures to allay any lingering concerns that may remain. have a duty to consider them, and I hope that the Government give the House that opportunity in the Ben Lake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his near future. intervention. I have indeed received many representations from responsible sportsmen, and from target shooters 4.14 pm in particular, who are very open to looking again at the conditions connected to the licensing arrangements, Will Quince (Colchester) (Con): It is a pleasure to particularly with regard to the storage of firearms. It follow the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Ben Lake). I would be both proportionate and reasonable to pursue agree with him wholeheartedly that it is sad that we are the matter further in Committee. debating these issues and that the Government have had to introduce the Bill. It should not be necessary—people Chris Davies rose— should not throw acid in people’s faces, which has a life-changing impact, and they should not use knives on Ben Lake: I give way to my hon. Friend and neighbour. our streets. Chris Davies: I thank my hon. Friend and neighbour However, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says, we are for giving way. As well as being neighbours, we also where we are. This is a hugely important Bill because share a police force. Does he agree that if the extra the scourge of knife and acid crime touches not only a restrictions were put in, our police force, and indeed all number of constituencies within London and our inner the police forces around the country, would easily manage cities, but all our constituencies up and down the country. to ensure that they were enforced? I am sorry to say that its intensity is growing outside the major cities, and it is finding its way into towns such as Ben Lake: I concur wholeheartedly with my hon. mine and rural communities. It devastates communities, Friend. I am aware that Dyfed-Powys police already including mine, where we have had horrific knife attacks. enforce the licensing arrangements thoroughly. It would I agree that one victim of an acid or knife attack is one be a reasonable and logical step to add some additional too many. The tragedy is that, in many cases, young requirements with regard to the security of storage, and people’s lives are taken at an early age when they have I am sure that the police will be fully able to ensure that so much promise ahead of them, which devastates not the law is complied with. It is incumbent on us to ensure only the families but the wider community. 959 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 960

[Will Quince] nature, it is reactive legislation that deals with weapons that gangs and criminals have moved on to. Some of We know that the victims and perpetrators of such those weapons—knives and corrosives—can probably offences are often from outside the towns in which never truly be banned, as we all know that they are those offences are committed. I have referenced one available in households across the country. I could incident in the House previously. There were six knife probably find several in my kitchen. We need to ensure attacks in Colchester in one evening, and in all six cases, that we have a multifaceted approach to tackling this the victims and perpetrators were from outside issue, and the serious violence strategy has a significant Colchester—they came from London. This is not just a role to play. city issue anymore. County lines are bought and sold First, we need to make sure that our legislation gives like franchises. The perpetrators use children—they know the police the powers they need to deal with offenders, that they are less likely to be stopped and searched on which is one thing that the Bill does. Secondly, we need the train or other public transport—to carry drugs, to make sure that, when we intervene, we do so as early bringing with them fear, intimidation and violence to as possible. We need to turn children away from gangs towns up and down the country. As I said, in the case I and, indeed, when they are the victims of gangs or mentioned, the victims and perpetrators were all from grooming, we need to give them the protection and London. There is an increase in county lines activity support they need. and the barbaric activity known as cuckooing. Much of this is, sadly, drug-related. As I have said previously in the Chamber, we need education in schools to ensure that children know the I welcome the Government’s serious crime strategy dangers of carrying a weapon. There are some fantastic and the £40 million that comes with it. I was pleased to charities across the country—many have been set up by speak in the debate just a few weeks ago about that very parents who have lost a child to knife crime—that go subject. I have my own views about what we need to do into schools to educate children about the danger of to tackle serious crime, and especially on prevention carrying knives. The charities teach children that they and diversion. The Government’s strategy includes a are far more likely to be the victim of a knife attack if number of measures that I wholeheartedly support but, they carry a knife themselves, and they show them in a as the Minister knows, because we have had this graphic way the devastation caused by a knife attack. conversation, the question is how we treat children who They show the awful wounds, and they also show what have been involved in county lines operations. In many it feels like to be a family member whose child is in cases we are talking about 12 to 15-year-olds who are hospital or, even worse, has been fatally wounded or groomed by drug gangs in a similar way to how sexual murdered. predators groom young people. It can start with the purchase of trainers or a financial gift of some description, Thirdly, judges need a full range of sentencing powers or it can start with violence and intimidation of either so that a person who is repeatedly caught carrying a the young person or a family member. Do we treat knife, or who is caught harming an individual, can be those children like criminals, bearing in mind their life given a custodial sentence. I agree with Members who chances from that moment on, or do we treat them like have said that we need to come down very hard on those the victims they are, and put them back on the right who are repeatedly caught carrying a knife or weapon, track to a fulfilling life in which they contribute fully to and on those who harm another individual, but there society? need to be other solutions, such as educational and non-custodial approaches, so that we do not fill our Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): Does my prisons with young people who have lost their future. hon. Friend agree that children’s criminal records should At the moment, an individual who is caught carrying not haunt them for the rest of their lives and that our a knife may get just a caution. In my view, they should system should wipe the slate clean at a certain point? also be sent on a weapons awareness course. A person who is caught speeding, for example—I am not conflating Will Quince: I broadly agree with my right hon. carrying a knife and speeding but, to some extent, it is a Friend. When we criminalise a child at a young age, the useful comparison—has the option of paying a fine or problem is that their life chances are impaired to such going on a course. It should be mandatory that a person an extent that a life continuing along the route of who is given a caution for any kind of weapon-related criminality is sadly almost inevitable. We should break offence is sent on a course. They should have to see the that cycle when we have the opportunity to intervene—such devastation caused by such weapons, which hopefully opportunities are often rare—and ensure that we put would go some way towards breaking their attitude them back on the right path. One way to do that is to towards carrying a weapon and knife crime. That would ensure that a criminal record does not stay with a child not work for everyone, but for some individuals, especially forever. For example, someone might commit an offence those who are particularly young and have made a at a young age after they have been groomed or forced mistake—for many first-time offenders it will be just a into that action due to violence and intimidation. They mistake—it might just break the cycle, and at very small could then completely turn their lives around and think, cost. Such courses are, in many cases, run by charities 10 years later, “I want to contribute by becoming a across the country. police officer and serving my community.”Currently—I Fourthly, we need to identify and address the root stand to be corrected by the Minister—that would not causes of this criminality.Why do people carry weapons? be possible, because their criminal record continues. I How has our society got to this position? It could be wholeheartedly agree with my right hon. Friend. social breakdown, regional inequality, family breakdown, I welcome the Bill and will support its Second Reading. absent father figures or a lack of male role models. It It has huge merits but, as a number of right hon. and could be school exclusion, which has been mentioned, hon. Members have said, it is not without issue. By its or social isolation—gang culture can provide a sense of 961 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 962 belonging. It could be county line activity or prostitution. We have had instances in Coventry, going back around It could actually be education and the messaging we 20-odd years, of people giving evidence in court and the send out about drugs and drug use. individual being given a sentence, but then visiting them I find it bizarre that we have middle-class people in as a punishment. That is one part of the whole argument this country who drive around in their electric vehicles, about witness protection schemes. drinking their Rainforest Alliance coffee and eating their Fairtrade chocolate, but who have no qualms Will Quince: The hon. Gentleman raises a good whatsoever about going out at the weekend and having point. There is no easy answer to this issue; if there was, a few lines of coke, because that does not harm anyone, successive Governments would have addressed it. That does it? If only those people saw the devastation that was why I was making the point that to really address that causes both in the country where the cocaine is knife crime and why people carry weapons, we need to sourced from and through the county line activity in understand the root causes and then put in place this country that takes the drugs from the point of entry interventions at numerous points on the journey towards to the point at which they are sold. If only they saw, in criminality. Even when someone has entered criminality, so many cases,the children whose lives have been devastated we should intervene at the earliest possible opportunity as a result. We need to send a clear message that drug to try to break the cycle and turn someone’s life taking is not acceptable and that, through the damage it around. does, it is not a victimless crime. On the online sale of weapons, I very much welcome the banning of the delivery of knives and corrosives Mr John Hayes: My hon. Friend is making an excellent brought online, and especially the fact that they will no point that deserves amplification. The gated-lived, middle- longer be deliverable to residential addresses. I agree class liberals who take drugs have little or no care with the position in the Bill: there is no reason why such because they have little or no contact with the kind of items cannot be purchased in person. The Bill goes people he describes. It is the people on the frontline who some way to addressing the move towards online purchases, suffer, and they deserve to be treated as a priority. but I have a couple of questions for the Minister. Have we looked into age verification on delivery, which is an Will Quince: I thank my right hon. Friend for that option that already exists for a number of products? I intervention. It is important to note, though, that although appreciate that there are some flaws with that approach, in the past people have thought, “This isn’t a problem but I think there is something in it to be teased out in for us—this isn’t something that our children would be Committee. Have we assessed the possibility of individuals involved in,” the reality is that it is now quite the getting these weapons delivered to workplaces instead? opposite. These grooming gangs are looking for people So many people have even private parcels delivered to who are not stereotypical. They are looking for children their workplaces, so we must ensure that there is no who are particularly vulnerable, and that is not just loophole for people to purchase corrosives or knives children from socially deprived backgrounds or from using that route. council housing estates—the people one would perhaps On retailers, have we done any liaison with retailers automatically associate with being easy prey for some on theft? If we are to make knives more difficult to of these grooming gangs—but the young people who come across—I refer back to what I said about these are easiest to groom and are less likely to be stopped items being in most of our kitchens up and down the and searched by a police officer. The enemy is at the country—what work has been done on theft? I can walk gate, and to think that our own children and the children into any Sainsbury’s or Tesco store—other supermarkets of middle-class families are not as affected as anybody are, of course, available—and notice that in the else is a myth. It is a dangerous assumption not to think kitchen aisle it is only the high-value knives that have that every single part of our society and every town in any kind of security tag. Some of the very sharp, our country is affected, and even rural areas. We should low-priced knives are just there on the shelves for absolutely send out the message loud and clear that this anybody to pick up. I should also point out that they affects everybody’s children, not just somebody else’s. are not even always above the height that children can On root causes, we need to take a much tougher reach, which is perhaps another point that needs to be stance on antisocial behaviour. If we do not take a considered. I am not sure whether we need to go as far tougher stance on very low-level crime, it will be easier as having all knives behind a counter so we have to for people to think that other crimes are acceptable. A request one, as we do with cigarettes. Perhaps we should policing focus on drugs would be particularly helpful. look at some kind of security tagging of knives, especially To tackle the issues, we really need to understand the sharp knives. I do not know whether we have looked at root causes. The strategy goes some way towards achieving having cabinets in shops. I am conscious that that is not that, but there is more work to do. the panacea; it will not fix the issue, but it might go Let me turn to the specifics of the Bill. There is no some way towards making it harder for individuals to reason whatsoever for under-18s to be able to buy these get hold of a knife. weapons, nor for them to carry them in public, so I very As has been said by many hon. Members, constituents much welcome the Government’s position. There is also have raised firearms as an issue. Although I represent a no reason to possess certain weapons in private properties. wholly urban constituency, I have a number of people There is no justification for having zombie knives, knuckle who are interested in firearms for sporting purposes. I dusters and death stars, even in private possession. have some sympathy with the Government’s view on the banning of .50 calibre rifles for civilian ownership. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Successive These are very high-powered rifles that can punch through Governments have failed to tackle the knife culture in armour. I know that they have been banned in California this country, so in a way this is not really a political thing. under Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. Inevitably, 963 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 964

[Will Quince] 4.33 pm with any such policy, we must make sure that it is Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): I broadly evidence based. I understand that there is a case of one welcome this legislation to crack down on crimes involving of these weapons being stolen, but it was recovered very knives, firearms and corrosives. Valid concerns have quickly by the police. We need to make sure that our been raised in this debate, and I urge Ministers to think policy is evidence based. We are talking about a very carefully about whether changes can be made to the Bill small number of these weapons. As far as I understand to reflect some of them. it, we do not have any evidence of these weapons having Although overall levels of crime have fallen using the been used in crimes. established measurements, the recent uplift in serious violent crime is hugely worrying to me and everyone Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): My hon. Friend else in the House, particularly in our capital city, where makes a very good point. As for what the Government my constituency is located. Even my constituency of have tried to achieve, this Bill is, in every other respect, Chipping Barnet has not been immune from this problem, almost a perfect Bill. However, what they run the risk of with a fatal shooting in Cockfosters in February. The doing with a ban on .50 calibre rifles is demonising Bill will assist the fight against this type of brutal crime. people in the community who are incredibly law abiding. At the summit held in April, which was attended by What we do not want to do is to fall into the trap, which the Home Secretary, the Mayor of London and a broad we did with the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 and the range of elected representatives across London from handgun ban, of creating bad law when, actually, this different parties, there was widespread agreement on Bill in every other respect is very good law. the need for a robust policing and criminal justice response, and this legislation will assist on that score, Will Quince: I agree with my hon. Friend. I could because it will help to keep dangerous weapons off our understand it if there was a compelling case that these streets. I attended the summit, where we also agreed particular weapons had been used in extensive criminality, that we needed to go beyond a policing and justice or indeed if there was a very strong evidence-based case response to tackle this problem. We agreed that a renewed against them because there was a threat that they would focus was needed on early intervention to try to prevent be used in some form of criminality. My hon. Friend young people from becoming involved in gangs. I welcome the Member for The Cotswolds (Sir Geoffrey Clifton- the fact that many Members have made similar points Brown) put it very well: there are a very small number this afternoon, and that this point is a key part of the of individuals who use these weapons. If the Government Government’s serious violence strategy. I very much believe that there is case to do something, then absolutely, hope that the early intervention youth fund, which is yes, let us do so. Let us look at the security of these part of the Government’s strategy, can play a valuable firearms. Let us perhaps look, in extremis, at allowing role in bringing to an end this totally unacceptable spike them to be kept only at ranges, and secured with equipment upwards in the murder rate—including, sadly, crimes that is not usually found domestically. However, there is involving the sorts of offensive weapons targeted in concern among the sporting firearms fraternity that this the Bill. might be the thin end of the wedge and that it would lead to further such banning of weapons. It is important to deliver on the commitments in the Government’s strategy on county lines, which, as others All I am saying to the Minister is: can we take a look have said, are bringing the blight of drug-related serious at this matter in Committee to make sure that any violence to many towns, cities and, indeed, rural areas approach that we take is indeed evidence based? That across the country. In London we need the Government, also goes for the case in relation to manually actuated the Mayor, the police, and local groups and communities release system rifles. I agree with the Government’s to work together to combat this new menace to children fundamental position that these are, in theory, dangerous and young people. I therefore welcome the commitment weapons, but I also appreciate the views of those in the Government’s strategy to support local groups constituents who have contacted me who have a disability. and partnerships, which need to be at the heart of an One in particular has contacted me and said that this is effective response to these problems. the only weapon that he can fire, and the measure would mean that he could not partake in his sport. We We should be in no doubt that it is possible to bring need to consider whether we argue for an exemption, down levels of this type of serious violent crime because whether we tighten up the measures to ensure that these that has been done before in this city. In the closing rifles are more secure than most other firearms have to years of Ken Livingstone’s mayoralty, there was a similar be, or indeed whether they have to be kept at a registered jump in the murder rate, but this was brought down by range. I hope that the Minister will take that away and determined action by his successor, my right hon. Friend look at it, along with a number of points that have been the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris made by colleagues, in Committee. Let me reiterate the Johnson), and his deputy Mayor for policing, Stephen point that any change that we make must absolutely be Greenhalgh. I appeal to the Government and the current evidence based. Mayor to learn from what the former Mayor was able to To conclude, this is a good Bill. Its intentions are achieve. In particular, the current Mayor needs to hold indeed very good and sound, but there is work to do in the police to account regarding their delivery of the Committee, and there is certainly further work to do on objectives that he sets them in this important area. the serious crime strategy. I just hope that we can be The role of the Mayor in holding the police to pragmatic and look at any and all measures in the account is an important part of an effective criminal future that will go some way towards addressing the justice response to serious crime. I also believe that the scourge that is knife crime—or indeed any crime involving Mayor should reconsider his decision to close Barnet weapons of this nature. police station. The station came under threat in 2012, 965 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 966 but I was one of a number of people who helped to to debate the merits of those funding choices, but it persuade the previous Mayor to keep it open, so it was shows that even with a small switch from those priorities saved then, but its closure by the current Mayor has to policing, the Mayor could keep our police station in caused considerable anxiety. Barnet open. It is not enough for him to seek to blame I accept that front-desk services in police stations are the resources he is given by Government. He has choices not as heavily used as they once were, and that there are and he should make them in a responsible way that now many different ways in which to report crimes to gives the suburbs their fair share of police resources. the police. This issue is not just about front desk closures. Finally, I want to share with the House some very Once the Mayor’s closure plans go ahead in full, the depressing news on a crime committed in my constituency police in Barnet will be left with no base at all in my at the weekend. On Sunday, thieves broke into the site constituency of Chipping Barnet. I am concerned that a of the Summer Soulstice festival in Mays Lane in visible police presence in my constituency will inevitably Arkley. They used acetylene cutting gear and hammers be greatly reduced when all officers are based several to break into a safe and made off with over £45,000 in miles away in Colindale. takings from the event that was awaiting transfer to the bank the next day.It seems that they may have deliberately Dr Offord: Is my constituency neighbour aware that planned the break-in to coincide with the England the London Borough of Barnet is one of the largest World cup game, when those clearing up after the London boroughs and one of the largest net contributors festival had gone home to watch the football. to the Metropolitan police budget? This means that we This crime is made all the more repellent by the fact do not get the police officers that we pay for. There are that the Soulstice festival is entirely run by volunteers 736 people in Barnet per officer, whereas the rest of and all its proceeds go to a local charity, Cherry Lodge London—excluding the City of Westminster—has just Cancer Care. The event was established in memory of 529 residents per police officer. Does my right hon. Andy Weekes, who was sadly lost to cancer in 2006, and Friend think that that is fair? it has raised over a quarter of a million pounds for Cherry Lodge over the course of 11 years. The family of Theresa Villiers: I do not. I very much welcome my the late Andy Weekes and the whole team behind Soulstice hon. Friend’s highlighting of that problem. I am going are apparently devastated by what has happened. I am to come on to it, because we need a fairer system for the sure that the whole House will share my dismay about allocation of resources in our capital city—a point this crime. I do not imagine that the perpetrators are made by my hon. Friend the Member for Romford likely to read Hansard, but they should feel a deep sense (Andrew Rosindell). of shame about what they have done. I very much hope I am concerned about the impact of the police station that the police will catch them swiftly and that they will closure on visible police presence. Only today, I received be locked up for a very long time indeed. a report of retailers being robbed in High Barnet, with a recent incident of men in balaclavas who were wielding 4.44 pm weapons robbing a shop in broad daylight in front of Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con): It is a pleasure, if frightened children. Over recent months, during the that is the right word, to speak in this important debate. regular doorstep calls that I undertake in my constituency, From the outset, may I say how much I associate myself many people have highlighted their anxiety about burglary. with the comments made by the hon. Member for I appreciate that budgets are constrained, but I have Ceredigion (Ben Lake), my hon. Friend the Member for appealed to the Mayor to give Barnet a fairer allocation Colchester (Will Quince) and in particular my hon. of police resources to help provide concerted action on Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Sir Geoffrey burglary and other crimes, including those involving the Clifton-Brown)? The speeches by the right hon. Member offensive weapons targeted in this Bill. As we heard for East Ham (Stephen Timms) and the hon. Member from my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord), for West Ham (Lyn Brown) were strong and compelling, Barnet has fewer police per head than many other particularly in their urging the Government to include a boroughs, although, sadly, we face a number of problems wider range of acidic substances in the list of those that very similar to those of inner-London boroughs. we seek to prohibit the carrying of, particularly by those who are 18 or under. Julian Knight: What my right hon. Friend is saying is I hope I will not be accused of making an overtly very resonant for me, because our police and crime party political point. However, I have served for a short commissioner closed our police station in Solihull. Burglars, period as the Parliamentary Private Secretary to my in particular, often use fear-inducing weapons such right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing and the Fire zombie knives and death stars to commit violence. Does Service, and I have listened to a huge number of speeches she agree that this Bill is very welcome in that respect? and oral questions at Home Office questions. Given that very often, though not exclusively, as my hon. Theresa Villiers: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. Friend the Member for Colchester said, this is seen as a Burglary is a deeply distressing crime for its victims, but London-centric and urban daily threat, I am surprised unfortunately it can be made very much worse by by the lack of representation on the Opposition Benches threats of violence and the use of weapons of the type today, with the exception of the fine speech by the hon. targeted by this Bill. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh), and the The Mayor of London does have choices with regard right hon. Member for East Ham and the hon. Member to resources. He has, for example, about half a billion for West Ham. I am slightly surprised that those who pounds in reserves. He is proudly allocating £150 million have often spoken most loudly about the need for this a year to cycling measures. He had earmarked £60 million legislation and what underpins the imperatives that to pedestrianise Oxford Street. This is not the occasion drove it are conspicuous by their absence this afternoon. 967 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 968

[Simon Hoare] As so often, however, when putting in place deterrents, we have to be careful. We know who we are seeking to Sunshine, I know, can be a rather seductive entity, but I deter, but very often the legislative deterrent has no thought they might have forgone that for just a few impact at all on their daily modus operandi of criminality, hours on an issue of this importance. gangland behaviour, drug dealing and so on. However, The key thing to bear in mind is that, while the debate as an unforeseen consequence, it may be the most is often painted within the confines of an urban narrative, terrible burden and nuisance to law-abiding citizens this affects all our towns and cities across the country, trying to go about their daily business or to pursue their as my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester said. On hobby.As my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds 7 January 2016, a hairdresser in my constituency, Katrina mentioned, we quite rightly have one of the most, if not O’Hara, was putting the rubbish out at the end of the the most, rigorous firearm licensing regimes in the working day in the little courtyard behind the barbershop world, but, notwithstanding that, we still have gun in which she worked in Blandford Forum. Blandford crime. Previous legislation has made certain pistols and Forum is a jewel in the North Dorset crown. It is a small handguns illegal, but they are very often the preferred Georgian market town; it is not one of the fleshpots of weapon of those in gangs and the weapon of choice of metropolitan England by any stretch of the imagination. others engaged in criminal activity. Katrina was attacked by a former partner with a knife that he had taken from the kitchen drawer in his house. Mark Garnier: Will my hon. Friend give way? He stabbed her. She died of her injuries. He attempted then to take his own life, but was apprehended and Simon Hoare: Notwithstanding my hon. Friend’searlier resuscitated by Dorset police. He was put on trial and rudery, I will give way. found guilty. I relate that story because, as one can imagine, it had Mark Garnier: I am sure my hon. Friend needs to the most huge and profound effects on a market town take the weight off his feet for a moment or two during community like Blandford Forum. The ramifications of his magnificent speech. The important point he makes it still reverberate in conversations just over two years about gun crime is that it is committed not with legally later. It was not a crime perpetrated by drug users or by owned guns, but with illegally owned guns. In keeping minors, and it was not a crime in which somebody had guns away from criminals, the law is probably not to go out and buy a knife to use as a weapon, either working as well as it should do, and that is what should directly from retail or on the internet; the knife was just be addressed. taken out of a kitchen drawer. That is the scale of the issue that this sort of legislation is trying to grapple with. Simon Hoare: My hon. Friend is right. The Under- There is much to commend in the Bill. The Home Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Office and the relevant Ministers are to be saluted for Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria their clear care and dedication in the consultation process Atkins), was a prosecuting barrister in a previous life. and in talking to Members. My right hon. Friend the She will know, as lots of other people do—[Interruption.] Home Secretary gave a commitment to my hon. Friend Ah, here she is; she arrives. As if by magic, my hon. the Member for The Cotswolds that that conversation Friend is summoned up. I was just saying that, in a would continue, and that is important. previous existence, she was a prosecuting barrister, and As I say, there is much to commend in this legislation I know—not least because she has told me this on so and the foundations of it are clear, but I would echo the many occasions—that she will appreciate the importance comments made by a number of my right hon. and hon. of evidence. We are making law, and as important as the Friends, and indeed by right hon. and hon. Members of issues are that we are seeking to address, the law has to the Opposition, about how, although the foundations be based on evidence. may be very secure, the edifice emerging through the It may well be that there are certain things that my Committee process will require some work. On the eve right hon. and hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench of my 49th birthday, I may be able to claim some cannot tell the House: there may be evidence from the similarity with that. My foundations are fine— National Crime Agency and others that it would be Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): entirely inappropriate to share with those who are not You must be older than that. Privy Counsellors, or whatever. However, I take the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Mark Garnier: His 59th—no, 69th— Forest (Mark Garnier). Like colleagues, I have yet to find any canon of persuasive evidence that does not Simon Hoare: I am ignoring the comments of my lead me, for what that is worth, to the conclusion that if hon. Friends. we harry and pursue the softest targets—those who Mark Garnier: Give him a bus pass! have a licence, those obeying the law to the letter and those who have clearly indicated, in response to consultation, Simon Hoare: I’ll give you something in a minute. their willingness to go the extra mile in terms of security, There is a clear and compelling narrative that some vetting, referencing and so on and so forth—they will changes to the Bill are needed as it moves forward. What be the ones most affected, without the concomitant does the Bill seek to achieve? If anybody thinks that by benefit of increasing safety on our streets. the stroke of a legislative pen and the creation of new If there is evidence telling us that a whole cadre statutes these crimes will be eliminated—I am not suggesting of crimes is committed on our streets by people who for a moment that Ministers on the Treasury Bench are licensed to have a shotgun or other firearm, clearly believe this—they will find that that is not going to be the House will need to recalibrate its message on that the case, although the Bill will clearly act as a deterrent. point. 969 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 970

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: The problem would be if will be some fairly dramatic changes in Committee: a people who lawfully hold a shotgun or firearm see this greater understanding of the needs and difficulties of legislation and think that they might be criminalised small businesses in particular, and an element of rural next. They fear that this is setting a precedent and they proofing. We are trying to address a national issue, do not know where it is going to end. but as it stands the Bill does not reflect some of the differentials between urban and rural living. I draw Simon Hoare: My hon. Friend is right about that. comfort from the fact that the Minister understands Those who see these things as the opening of a Pandora’s rural issues to her fingertips, representing, as she does, box are often right to see proposals in that way, and I the second most beautiful part of the country after am inclined to think that we are not necessarily looking North Dorset. at this from the right end of the telescope. I would much prefer a far more rigorous approach to sentencing, so that it actually acts as a deterrent, and my hon. Friend 5 pm the Member for Colchester and others have intimated Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): the same. I am not convinced that the criminal minds, the It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member modern-day Fagins who recruit these often vulnerable for North Dorset (Simon Hoare). I am sorry to have youngsters to commit these crimes to aggrandise the missed a few of the earlier speeches; I had to be at a Fagins of, particularly but not exclusively, the drug sitting of the Home Affairs Committee. The quality of world, will give tuppence ha’penny about what statute the debate has been excellent and I am happy to support law says. If they want to get hold of a shotgun or the Bill. It is a pity that it has been made necessary something else, they will jolly well do it. We need to be in the light of a recent uptick in violent crime, and not focusing a lot more attention on sentencing than we only in London. As my hon. Friend just said, the devil have hitherto. will be in the detail when it comes to practical Obviously, we have do this as part of a legislative implementation. We all know that acid and knives are mosaic, which, as others have said, calls for even greater not in themselves offensive weapons; the person using intergovernmental and cross-departmental working. them makes them so. The Times has been running an interesting series of I do, however, have some reservations, which I share articles this week. It has alluded to all the things that we with a number of hon. Friends, about the proposals on know about gang culture—family breakdown, the lack .50 calibre rifles. Shooting is a legitimate pursuit for of feeling of belonging, a lack of aspiration, poor sport or countryside activities. As Members have said educational attainment, and that self-breeding fear and on numerous occasions, it is weapons held without a anxiety that says, “I live in an unsafe area so I must tool licence by criminals that cause the crimes. Legitimately up to protect myself.”In that way, the cycle just continues held, licensed weapons are very rarely involved. and continues. A lot of additional work needs to be done and other Departments need to be involved in it. Our gun control laws are rightly among the tightest in the world. I do not want to do anything that would I wish to say a few words about the impact on small weaken that, and I would certainly not go down the businesses. I do not understand the logic of a lot of absurd lines of President Trump’s recent statement that these proposals on where and how one can sell, and on the reason for our upsurge in knife crime is that we do not delivering to a residential address. I am sure the not have gun ownership to combat it. That is a very Minister will be able to fill, to the point of overflowing, slippery slope, and I do not think anybody has taken it the lacuna in my knowledge of this, but I cannot seriously in this country, but we need to make sure that understand the differential in respect of being able to the restrictions are evidence based and properly risk have something delivered to a business premises or a assessed. post office, but not being able to have it delivered to one’s own personal address—likewise, where the Bill Weare talking about fewer than 1,000 of the 2.25 million says that even if someone has ordered something online, rifles and guns held legitimately on certificate—just they have to collect it from the branch. That is fine for 700 rapid-fire rifles and 132 .50 calibre rifles are involved. national operators, but I have received a number of I have had more representations on that element of the representations on this. Some have come from Mr Duncan Bill than on any other, particularly from disabled Chandler, an artisan manufacturer of woodland and constituents who have used these rifles as part of their survival knives in my constituency, who is anxious recreational activity. about this matter and the impact it has on his business. The shooting community views these prohibitions as Others have come from Mr Philip Hart, who runs the a gross breach of natural justice. Despite repeated requests, excellent Harts of Stur, 80% of whose kitchenware, the Home Office has failed to provide any evidence that which includes knives,is sold online across the country—the the rifles pose a risk to public safety. As it stands, company has only one branch and it is in North Dorset. applicants must provide clear and evidenced good reason I ask the Minister to think in Committee about the for each and every rifle they wish to acquire and use. definition of “knife”. I am talking about rather peculiar The very few who apply for and use high-muzzle-energy things here and am flicking through my notes to try to rifles have well documented and good reasons, and are find the reference point I was looking for but I cannot. I limited to using them on specific ranges. Various shooting shall say merely refer to a constituent of mine who associations have suggested enhancing suitability manufactures and sells straight razors for wet shaving. assessments if that would help to prevent an outright Are they to be included in the definition of “knife” or ban, which seems disproportionate. not? Will they fall within the new requirements? It is also reasonable to ask the Government what In conclusion, I support this legislation. If it is pressed reductions in firearms crimes are expected as a result of to a Division, I shall certainly vote in favour of its the prohibitions in the Bill. It is difficult to see what Second Reading, but with a presumption that there problem we are trying to solve. 971 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 972

[Tim Loughton] access to hardcore imagery and hate crime. Increasingly, we are seeing easy accessibility to gang rap songs, with I have had representations from members of legitimate gangs brandishing and glorifying knives on social rifle clubs, such as the Aldershot Rifle and Pistol club. media platforms. That needs to be prevented in the first My constituent Martin runs the local disability forum. place and taken down immediately when spotted. Social He shoots from a wheelchair using one of these guns. media companies need to be much more responsible He started target shooting as an Air Training Corps and proactive. cadet back in 1959. Prohibition would end his participation I query why the Bill does not, as far as I can see, in the sport, because his disability means that it is not extend the existing offence of having a knife or offensive easy for him to use the alternatives. It is notable that of weapon on school premises to cover other types of the 10,712 responses to the Government consultation, educational institution, as was covered in the consultation, over 60% related to these firearms proposals. but the problem is bigger than just the availability of I want to talk briefly about acid. I am pleased with offensive weapons, and bigger than just having stiffer the inclusion in the Bill of measures to deal with acid. sentences. This is a particularly cruel and vicious form of attack. The measures in the Bill will increase the use of People can recover from a gunshot or knife wound, mandatory minimum custodial sentences for children, with minimal scars in some cases, but the effects of acid yet evidence shows that custody is failing in being are a life sentence of disfigurement, especially when rehabilitative. Last year, 69% of children released from acid has been used on the face. If anything, acid attacks custody reoffended within a year. That is a considerably deserve harsher sentences than attacks using some of higher figure than for those who were given community the more conventional weapons we have been describing. sentences, so we need to think much smarter about the The problem is that there are no official statistics on the criminal justice system and how we keep people out of extent of acid attacks. Voluntary data across 39 police jail and sustainably out of trouble. forces found that there were some 408 acid attacks between November 2016 and April 2017, which represented Working in partnerships, we need to understand why a large increase on estimates that had gone before. It is gang culture in this country is increasingly using these also interesting that such attacks are prevalent in certain weapons. I filmed a documentary back in 2009 called cultures, particularly in the Indian subcontinent, and “Tower Block of Commons” in which I spent time with among jilted partners. Globally, on the figures we have, youth gangs in Newtown in inner-city Birmingham. 80% of the victims are women, but in this country the Through the help of former gang members who then set majority of victims are white men. up a charity to try to rehabilitate some of these people and bring them back in from the dark side, I began to I pay tribute to the work of the right hon. Member understand some of the sensitivities and vulnerabilities for East Ham (Stephen Timms). He is not in his place, of people who turn to gangs. This is about not just the but he spoke earlier. When I looked at this issue, I was penalties and the availability, but understanding the astonished to find that acid is freely available online to mindsets of the people who think it is good to use these anybody of any age, including children. Incredibly, weapons. certain forms of acid needed in the making, as my wife does, of jams and cordials are restricted to registered Finally, the Bill is just one part of a jigsaw, but we pharmacies, but this stuff can be bought online without need to be smarter and take a much more holistic any problem. It has to be right to restrict the sale, at approach to violent youth crime. least to under-18s. It has to be right to beef up the penalties for possessing harmful corrosive substances 5.11 pm where they are intended to cause injury. Mr John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) The devil will be in the detail. The evidence shows (Con): It is a prevalent liberal misassumption that things that only one offence in five involving acid is committed can only get better. Their mindset is that progress is by a child under the age of 18. We need qualifications in inevitable and that whatever we do, society will advance. the Bill on substances that are capable of causing permanent It is true that, as Disraeli said: harm. There is also a worry about the number of people coming forward: according to the St Andrews Centre “Change is inevitable…change is constant”, for Plastic Surgery and Burns, fewer than half of acid but things can simultaneously deteriorate as well as attack victims in this country pursue criminal charges improve. In my lifetime, there is no question but that against their attacker. that is exactly what has happened. On knife crime, again we need make to the tools of In the 60 years of my life—I know you are thinking, violence as difficult to procure as possible. I see absolutely Mr Deputy Speaker, “How can that possibly be true? no legitimate reason for possession of zombie knives How can that callow youth standing before me possibly and so on. There are all sorts of problems: age-verification have been born in 1958?”, but it is true—civil society online, as trading standards has stated; what we do has been weakened, respect for authority has dwindled about weapons imported from overseas; and what the and many of the once routine civilities and courtesies duty of care will be on Royal Mail and other carriers. that mitigate the inevitable pitfalls of human existence The rise in knife crime in London has been particularly have been derided, eroded or abandoned. Consequently, horrendous. What has been more worrying since 2014 is life is less gentle than it was when I was a boy. Many that the age of both victims and perpetrators has been have been brutalised and some are brutal. It is very getting younger and younger. That is, of course, drug difficult for the liberal establishment to come to terms related. with that, because the unhappy reality of increasing We have to look at the complicity of social media. disorder and criminality contrasts with the myth of The major social media companies have been in front of progress. It is therefore either disguised or ignored by the Home Affairs Committee with regard to radicalisation, those who cannot bear to face the facts. 973 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 974

I thought I would offer the Chamber some of those The idea that things are not getting better is unpalatable, facts this afternoon. They are so extraordinary that which is why the Bill is pertinent and welcome. Crime when I researched them, I could barely believe them, has many causes, and some have been rehearsed in the but they are based on information available from the debate. They include communal disintegration, family Library. In the year of my birth, 1958, the total number breakdown and the absence of opportunity, but of violent criminal incidents was 31,522. At the end of fundamentally criminal behaviour is about the absence 2014—a year for which the figures are available—the of values—values that the law-abiding take as read: total number of violent incidents was 1,245,000. This care for others, personal responsibility, respect for the is an extraordinary change. Even allowing for the change in rule of law. In the absence of those values, the gulf is population, which is significant, and for the changes in filled by altogether less desirable things—greed, anger, the definition of crime, which are not irrelevant, the sloth, lust, gluttony, envy, pride. They are not, after all, truth is that there has been an explosion in the amount new sins; they have been common to the human condition of serious and violent crime in our country. Most since man was made—and the results can be deadly. Members in this Chamber will know someone in their Crime is not an illness to be treated, and the perpetrators circle, family or beyond who has been a victim of some of crime are not patients. Crime is the product of kind of serious or violent crime. Of course, we know choices that people make. Those choices might have that our constituents have been, but many of us will been affected by their circumstances, but it is pretty have encountered it in a much more familiar way than insulting to working-class people of the kind I was that. brought up among to tell them they are more likely to be criminals because they live on a council estate, work Will Quince: Notwithstanding my right hon. Friend’s in a factory or never had a formal education of the kind point, does he accept that it has become a lot easier—in I and many here enjoyed. Let us be clear: we have to fact, has never been easier—to report a crime? identify malevolent behaviour and deal with it appropriately in the interests of public respect for the fairness of the justice system. Every time we do not, we undermine the Mr Hayes: It is true that in criminal statistics there is regard for the rule of lawamong less well-off people—those the well-established principle of the dark figure—the hard-working decent people who do the right thing and number of crimes never discovered because they are do not choose the course of crime but go about their never reported—and that this also needs to be taken lives in a peaceable, decent and honourable way. into account in any comparative analysis, which is why I Let us now think about what more needs to be done. qualified mine heavily before I offered it. Certainly we need to tackle some of the “drivers” of None the less, in the year of my birth there were 1,194 crime, as they have been described by other Members. I recorded robberies; the number now, extraordinarily have mentioned a few, in the context of health and the enough, is 74,130. We have had roughly a seventyfold life of civil society, but I think that the internet is, or can increase in the number of robberies during the 60 years be, a malevolent influence in this regard. We need to get of my life. This is indeed an extraordinary change. As tough with the social media platforms that glamorise parliamentarians, our recognition and acceptance of violence, and, in particular, glamorise the use of the this is an important part of reconnecting ourselves with weapons of violence. the lives and assumptions of the people who suffer As I suggested earlier to the Home Secretary, we also these kinds of crimes. The more we detach ourselves need to adopt a cross-departmental approach to deal from this reality and bury our heads in the sand, the with support for the family and support for communities. more people believe we either do not know or, worse, do The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh)— not care. I know that people across the Chamber do who I thought spoke extremely well, as I told her care, but denial is not good enough. privately—mentioned early intervention. Early intervention That is why I welcome the Bill. It is an important does matter, and there is no better early intervention acceptance that action is needed, that further measures than a strong and stable family. My early intervention are required. It is not, of course, the whole solution—the was my mum and dad, who taught me the difference Government would not claim it was, as right hon. and between what was right and what was wrong. You can hon. Members have said—but it is a step in the right fudge these things, and you can have a high-flown direction, although it will need to be refined in Committee. debate in fancy terms about sociology, but in the end it I will not go into why and how, because that has been comes back to that: people having a very fundamental amply rehearsed already, but it is important to consider sense of what is acceptable and what is unacceptable, some of the issues the Bill deals with: the availability of and what is good and what is bad behaviour. Families weapons; how easy or difficult it is for the police to deal really matter in that respect. with prosecutions; and the culture associated with this We know that there is an association—if I may get increase in violence, particularly among the young and sociological for a moment—between certain kinds of in urban areas. young people and crime. They tend to be young people whose families have broken down, and who have not Our preoccupation with the here and now does had the role model of a strong father. We need to take a not help. We have a culture dominated by the immediate lateral approach in considering some of those causal at the expense of measured contemplation. We no longer factors. think about what was or might be; we think of now, and we do not want people to feel that now is worse Finally— than it once was. Yet, having that long-term view and more contemplative approach to public policy is an Eddie Hughes: Will my right hon. Friend give way? important way to deal with some of the things I have described. Mr Hayes: No, because I want to conclude my remarks. 975 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 976

Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle): Mr Hughes, growth in aggravated acquisitive crime involving knives, you are very close to the top of the list. I am sure you do particularly terror-inducing knives such as death star not want to go down the list. I know that Mr Hayes is and zombie knives. I think of death stars as planet-killing about to finish his speech. Come on, Mr Hayes. weapons from “Star Wars”. Death star knives are absolutely shocking and there is no need for that knife to be in Mr Hayes: As you know,Mr Deputy Speaker,generosity production at all, and there is no need for any individual is not merely my middle name; it is my every name. to purchase such a knife. As acquisitive crime, particularly None the less, my dear friend will have to wait, because car crime, has increased, I have heard reports that I am about to conclude my remarks. criminals have sometimes brandished those knives. At The real risk with the Bill is not going too far, but not present, because London gets a lot of focus there is not going far enough; not taking more steps than are necessary, sufficient focus to ensure that we crack down as hard as but not taking the necessary steps. I will leave the House possible. That is one of the reasons why I support the with Proust. Proust said, “You must never be afraid to Bill; it will help indirectly to keep my residents safe. go too far, because the truth lies beyond.” There is no The response of the police and crime commissioner Minister in this Government more committed to the has not helped the situation at all. Despite a massive pursuit of the truth than the Under-Secretary of State rise in acquisitive crime—over 29% over the past year in for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member Solihull borough—he has chosen to close, without any for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins), who will proper consultation, Solihull police station, effectively sum up the debate. leaving 209,000 people without a police station. We have been promised that at some unspecified date in 5.22 pm future there will be a new front desk effectively; that could be in a shopping centre or in Chelmsley Wood in Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): I have to say, Mr Deputy the north of the borough. As a resident of the south of Speaker, that I do not have any Proust. Instead, I will the borough, I can say that it is easier for me to get to regale you with west midlands crime figures. Warwick than to get to Chelmsley Wood in the north of the borough. What message does that send out to the Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle): Crime figures public when we are seeing an increase in violent acquisitive will do fine. crime? Residents are saying, “We are paying our council Julian Knight: It is a great pleasure to follow my right taxes; Solihull residents are paying for an increase in hon. Friend the Member for the rather evocative-sounding precept, yet the police station is being closed.” South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes). I thought That will lead to longer response times. The police that his speech was superb in its evocation and exploration station is located at the centre of the constituency and of the rise in crime over such a long timescale. It was of Solihull borough. If it is located at some unspecified very informative indeed. date in the future in the north, there will be longer response times, or officers might have to come out of I agree with my right hon. Friend him about the area from Coventry or parts of Birmingham. My residents glorification of knife culture in social media, which was are extremely concerned about that. also mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton). We need to Turning to the mechanics of the Bill, the main policy get a grip on social media companies, because they have concern is about balancing the Government’s aims against a wide responsibility. They are not above and beyond the rights and liberties of individual citizens. I take on society; they are part of society. We should not treat board the point that many hon. Friends have mentioned them in a way that makes them publishers, as it were, about .50 calibre rifles, and I am glad that those concerns but they must be reminded of their responsibility to are being listened to by the Government and there is invest the necessary resources to ensure that such things active engagement. I, too, have been approached by the are kept off their platforms, as quickly as possible. law-abiding shooting community, which is very cognisant of the need for gun control and very supportive of it. It This Bill represents a much-needed update in the law has said to me that there is always a possibility that governing offensive weapons. It is an unfortunate fact people could end up not being able to pursue their sport that criminals are wont to adapt to new conditions because of this change. I am pleased that we are at least when the lawchanges,so it is important for the Government looking at that and addressing it. to move swiftly to close loopholes when they arise. More generally, criminalising the possession of these I wanted to speak in the debate because of the almost articles will make it much easier for the police to intervene silent gun and knife epidemic in the west midlands. It before they are used against the public—my constituents. may surprise Members to know that the level of gun The Bill introduces sensible requirements for online crime is higher there than it is in London: over 25 gun vendors to ensure that they are not selling restricted crimes per 100,000 people. In fact, the region is the only articles to under-age buyers; this is another example of part of the country in which that level is reached. We how technology and evolving consumer habits can leave also unfortunately have the third highest rate of knife the law behind. crime of all areas of the country; only the Metropolitan While these specific measures will no doubt help to police area and West Yorkshire are above us. To give a reduce the presence of dangerous weapons in our public bit of context, Warwickshire abuts Birmingham and the spaces, I am glad that the Government recognise that West Midlands Police area, and knife crime in that area the problem of violent crime cannot be tackled in is about half the level that it is in the west midlands. isolation. In the foreword to the “Serious Violence I see evidence of this on a regular basis in Solihull. Strategy” published in April the then Home Secretary Wedo not experience incidences of shootings and stabbings, made it clear that she intended to wage a comprehensive thank goodness, at this time, and I hope this Bill will campaign that included not only law enforcement but help to prevent any such incidences, but we are seeing a charities, communities and the private sector, as well as 977 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 978 health and education partners. That is commendable, I hope that the Bill will enable the police to prosecute and I hope that the Government will maintain that a greater number of offenders and keep my constituents commitment, tackling not only violent crime but the in Mansfield safe. As my hon. Friend the Member for driving forces behind it. That is something that has been Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) said, drugs reflected by the societal issues that have been raised in are a huge driver of violent crime, and I hope that the the debate today. Government will also build a strategy around the changing It is the first duty of the Government to protect the nature of the drugs market, which is having a huge impact public, and it is right that the recent spate of vicious in my constituency.I met Nick Butler, the neighbourhood acid attacks has drawn a prompt legislative response. I policing inspector in Mansfield, earlier this month, and have no doubt that the Bill will help to protect the it was good to talk to him about his work and his public. This is the vilest crime that I can imagine. The priorities locally. It was clear from our conversation horror of an individual splashing acid on to someone’s that, while police officers are working hard and are keen face would keep many of us awake at night. These to catch criminals, they need the powers to do that and crimes follow people throughout their lives, and we have the ability to charge offenders robustly. I believe that the seen instances in which people have taken their lives as a Bill will enable the police to do that more easily and to result of such acid attacks. target this particular brand of criminals more effectively. In conclusion, I support the Bill. In almost every Legislation that creates extra controls on knives and respect, it is a fit and good Bill, and I look forward to corrosive substances that are bought online is important. supporting it. More generally, I want to send a loud and Our laws need to keep up with technological change clear message to the West Midlands police and crime and the changing nature of violent crime. The Bill will commissioner that the Government are doing their job make it harder for young people to buy knives and acid and that he now needs to do his by ensuring that my online, with sellers requiring rigorous age verification to community is properly protected and that we have a prove that those purchasing knives or corrosives are working police station in a town of 209,000 people. over the age of 18. That is a huge step forward in tackling the changing way in which people get hold of 5.31 pm those weapons. It is good news that crime has fallen by more than a third since 2010, but the increase in violent Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con): I want to begin by crime in particular is worrying, and I am glad that the welcoming the nature of this debate. I am a relatively Government are taking decisive action to tackle this issue. new Member in this place, and this is unfortunately one of only a handful of times when I have sat through a The first serious violence strategy, which was debate where there has been genuinely measured and commissioned by the Home Secretary and which is constructive comment from both sides and where Members backed by £40 million of funding, marks an important have made new, interesting and constructive criticism of step in our response to knife and gun crime. It strikes a the Bill in question. I hope that the criticisms we have balance between prevention and law enforcement, and heard today will improve this one. I would single out the crucially targets violent behaviours at an early age. As hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), who is no Members on both sides of the House have said, education, longer in her place, for her measured and positive intervention and support are huge factors to go along contribution. I have actually gone through my speech with taking action against such weapons.Early intervention and crossed out the passages that slagged off the Labour is incredibly important—the early intervention youth party, because it did not feel wholly appropriate to use fund for community projects is another example of them in this environment. This is not normally in my helping people to live lives free of violent crime. Other nature, but I have done it—[Interruption.] Disappointing, Government legislation can have an impact. Hon. Members I know. have mentioned the impact of social media regulation on the lives of young people and their access to things I welcome the Bill. It is an important step forward in that might radicalise them or promote violent behaviour. keeping our communities safe. We have talked about the rise in crime. Broadly, it has come down over the past I have come to a passage in my notes that I have decade, but the changing nature of crime is all-important crossed out—it was particularly mean about Labour—so to the way in which we police it, and violent crime in I will move on to the clever things that other hon. particular has been on the rise. It is crucial that the Members have mentioned. I would have said them first police have the powers that they need to target the had I been called earlier. If my hon. Friend the Member criminals effectively in relation to knife crime and a for Shipley (Philip Davies) is correct on the detail, what range of other issues that can contribute to it, including he says makes perfect sense. There is no reason why drugs. I mentioned that issue to the Home Secretary threats with a knife made in the home should be any less earlier, and I wrote to the Home Office about it only this of a priority than threats made in public areas. I am week. The Bill aims to achieve exactly that, with new sure that the Minister more than recognises the impact tough provisions to tackle knife crime and acid attacks. of domestic violence, which is in her brief. She has been In Mansfield and Warsop, we have had some issues to Mansfield to meet domestic violence charities in my with violent crime and the use of weapons. In April, constituency and has seen the impact first hand—my there were 10 arrests for possessing a weapon. The constituency has the highest level of domestic violence majority of those were made around the town centre, in Nottinghamshire. I hope that the problem raised by which is becoming an increasingly unwelcoming place my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley can be improved because of the growing problems of very public drug at a later stage. use, antisocial behaviour and violent crime. This is putting people off visiting our town centre, so this is not Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Does my just about the safety of our local people; it is about the hon. Friend agree that our hon. Friend the Member local economy and our town and our shops as well. for Solihull (Julian Knight) made a good point when he 979 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 980

[Sir Greg Knight] Some Members will be much more conversant than I am with some of the terms used in the Bill, but I had to referred to police response times? The speed with which google the term “zombie knife” to understand what one the police respond is important in snuffing out crime, is. The classic definition is that a zombie knife has a particularly in developing situations in town centres. straight and a serrated cutting edge but also includes markings or wording that suggests the knife will be used Ben Bradley: My right hon. Friend is right. The for violent ends. The idea that we might sell such things, police response to incidents is important. I am very the idea that someone thought it a good idea to design pleased that the structures within our response and such an overtly violent piece of equipment and then sell neighbourhood policing have changed. I hope that that it, strikes me as a bit crazy in the first place, so we are and additional officers will improve the situation in unfortunate to be in this position. Nottinghamshire—I am sure that that is replicated in My excellent local newspaper, the Express & Star, is, other forces around the country. as has been mentioned previously, campaigning to ensure A number of colleagues raised the distinction between that other knives are considered for inclusion in future weapons at the opposite ends of the scale—weapons legislation. When we walk down the high street and see used for crime and those used in sport, agriculture or the range of what can only be described as weapons rural communities that are safe and properly licensed. that are freely available, we need to ask ourselves what All the signs are that Government Front Benchers are other purpose they could possibly have than to be used listening and that those points will be carefully considered for acts of violence or intimidation. in Committee. Banning such knives is clearly a good idea, because That said, the Bill is a significant commitment as part they are obviously offensive weapons, but I am not of our work to tackle serious violence and to make it naturally given to the idea of banning things. I recently harder than ever for people to get their hands on read this in the paper—I do not know whether it is true, dangerous weapons. Banning the possession of weapons but I just could not make it up—but did Jamie Oliver such as zombie knives and knuckledusters is a positive really meet Nicola Sturgeon to consider the banning of step. In many ways, it is unfortunate that we have to two-for-one pizzas? I do not know, but that is what I legislate—I am not naturally a proponent of banning read. A guy who has allegedly made £240 million from lots of things—but this is an important and all-too- selling food now wants to dictate what the less well-off necessary part of the Bill. can eat. A good middle-class family could go to one of The rise of acid attacks is simply horrific. Creating a Jamie’s restaurants and get a good deal on pizza, but he new criminal offence of selling corrosive substances to does not want the same opportunity for low-cost food under-18s is a positive step in the right direction, along to be extended to less well-off people. Counter-intuitive? with preventing the delivery of those substances to Bonkers? Others can decide. people’s homes. Importantly, the Government will ensure Instead of tackling the problem of children eating that police have the powers to arrest people who carry too much high-salt, high-energy food, how about endorsing such corrosive substances in public. I hope that we can the idea of a mile a day? All children should be encouraged continue to equip local police with robust powers, to walk or run a mile a day, in the hope that the practice particularly to deal with the drugs issues that I have persists when they become adults. As someone who has mentioned. spent six hours sat in the Chamber today, I would appreciate getting out to do my mile. I look forward to The Government are determined to help to prevent some exercise after this debate. the sale and possession of dangerous weapons. This tough legislation will make it harder than ever for The idea that people might carry acid in public, in people to get their hands on them. I am glad we are small amounts, for purposes other than to do harm to taking decisive action and look forward to supporting others is clearly also counter-intuitive, and it is something the Bill. that we should ban. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I thank my very 5.38 pm good and hon. Friend for allowing me to intervene. I do not understand how anyone can be allowed to buy acid Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con): I want to except for scientific purposes; I just do not understand explain briefly why I was so keen to intervene on my how that can happen in our society. What purpose right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and would it serve other than to do bad? The Deepings (Mr Hayes). My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) briefly popped Eddie Hughes: My hon. Friend makes an important into the Chamber. I am a fan and enthusiastic point. When people from the outside world look into supporter of her manifesto for strengthening families this Chamber, they will question why some of these and I wanted to acknowledge her presence while she things are not already against the law. I am a member of was here, but you very wisely stopped me doing so, the Women and Equalities Committee,and in this Chamber Mr Deputy Speaker. we recently debated upskirting, which is another example The idea of banning stuff does not come naturally to of something about which the general public would me. I have the tendencies of a classical liberal inasmuch surely think, “Are you crazy? Surely this should be as I believe that the freedom of the individual is considerably against the law already.” more important. However, I agree wholeheartedly with My hon. Friend makes a valid point, but perhaps we two thirds of the banning provisions in the Bill. Why are asking and addressing the wrong question. By the would I not? In fact, we might ask ourselves why we are time a young gang member, typically aged between having to ban these things. Why have they not been 14 and 24, picks up a knife to carry out an assault, we banned already? have already failed them. A number of Government 981 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 982 programmes are upstreaming the work to try to prevent applauded. However, I wish gently to advise the Minister people from getting to that point in the first place. For that legislation alone is not a panacea for reducing example, £920 million has been invested in the troubled crime in the United Kingdom. Indeed, as my right hon. families programme, which started in 2011. A subsequent Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers) round of funding was agreed for 2015 to 2020, with the and my hon. Friends the Members for Solihull (Julian aim of reaching 400,000 families. It has had some mixed Knight), for Gloucester (Richard Graham) and for reviews of its effect, but the idea is that there are a Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez) have all said, certain number of families in communities—everybody the PCC determines priorities, and that affects the level knows who they are—who require intensive support of crime. from several agencies, both governmental and voluntary, As a London MP, I can speak only about London. It and they need to be where we maximise our focus and is a fact that crime is on the rise in our capital and has effort because, as I said, once someone is in a gang been since the incumbent Mayor was elected. I say with something has already gone wrong. no particular pleasure that it is rather disappointing Before I came to the House, I worked for the YMCA that his standard excuse is that he could tackle the in Birmingham, a charity that supports young, previously problem of violent crime if he had more resources. I homeless people. It has 300 accommodation units, but certainly do not agree with that point of view. It is it does not just provide accommodation; it helps vulnerable completely disingenuous of the London Mayor to demand people who need a wide range of support. These are more funding. The Government have continually provided people who are not used to accessing medical and financial support to him, including through a scheme health services in the way the rest of us would; they for him to receive a cut from business rates, which has need to be got up in the morning and shown the way to provided an additional £60 million. The Government the dentist and to the doctor so that they can attend have also allowed the Mayor to raise council tax to appointments. It is clear that fragile people who are bring in an additional £49 million to support the police offered support can be saved from a life of crime and service in London. Therefore, overall, the Government gang culture. Often, those who engage in gang culture have supported the Mayor by giving him access to more are reaching out for some validation—for somebody to than £110 million, as my right hon. Friend the Member say, “You’re welcome in our group, we will protect and for Chipping Barnet and my hon. Friends the Members support you, and you will be one of us.” That is surely for Solihull and for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay) the embodiment of what we consider family to be. have mentioned. Then of course there are the millions I completely endorse some elements of the Bill, but I of pounds that the Mayor of London holds in reserves. am still confused about the measures on firearms.Members All police services need legislation to address changing spoke eloquently earlier and from an informed position, criminal behaviour. The vile issue of acid attacks is just asking, “Why are we trying to ban something that has one of those where the law needs to catch up. Indeed, super-limited previous exposure to crime and that is, under Ken Livingstone crime started to go up, but his generally speaking, held by people who have already replacement—my right hon. Friend the Member for gone through all sorts of security checks and is held in Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson)—Stephen the most secure way?” Those provisions possibly feel Greenhalgh, who has already been mentioned, and my like a step too far, so I was delighted to hear the hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire Secretary of State say he would further consider that (Kit Malthouse) made it a political priority to address element of the Bill. violent crime, particularly crime affecting young people. As a Government, we are doing the right thing by History proves to us that policing is not just about offering a broad range of support to the most vulnerable money and legislation, but about political will. young people in society, because the upstreaming of support is incredibly important, and we should indeed I am very pleased to see that my hon. Friend the be banning these weapons. Member for North West Hampshire has entered the Chamber and is in his place because I wish to mention Finally, I have had a long-running disagreement with the article he wrote in January for the Evening Standard. the West Midlands police and crime commissioner. He He said that when he was appointed deputy mayor for is moving police officers from Bloxwich in my constituency policing in London, the number of teenage murders in to Wolverhampton, thereby reducing response times his first year was 29. He made it a political priority to and moving those officers away from the community address that rise and ensured that, when he left office, that they serve. That is not a good move. The Government the number had been reduced to eight. The trajectory have provided him with extra resource by allowing him that he was previously on would have put the number of to increase the precept to put more police on the street, deaths at more than 50. The number of deaths in but he has patently failed to do so, because he believes London now is about 80, so we are at a higher level. that that money is better spent on office staff. That is completely wrong. My hon. Friend said that there was a culture in the Metropolitan police whereby teen murders were not 5.47 pm considered statistically high in comparison with other world cities. That is appalling. He also said that the view Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): It is a pleasure of the Met police was that deaths of black youths were to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North considered a fact of city life. That is abhorrent. He also (Eddie Hughes). He is part of a small coterie of us who outlined in his piece that many of the initiatives were have sat through the whole of this afternoon’s debate, so controversial because they disproportionately affected I feel some sense of camaraderie with him. black communities. That required him and the Mayor There is a lot in the Bill to be welcomed. I think I continuously to reassure communities that their actions speak for many in the House when I say that any were keeping their children safe. That is a commitment legislation that improves our constituents’ safety is to be that the current Mayor should accept. 983 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 984

[Dr Matthew Offord] Dr Offord: I was not sure who you were speaking to, Mr Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh), who has returned to her place but who is perhaps not Kwasi Kwarteng: I just want to intervene on my hon. entirely listening to me, made a claim that crime in Friend to say that I was simply making a personal London was not actually increasing—or that it was remark to myself; I was not addressing the House. I am doing so proportionally slower than in the rest of the very pleased that my hon. Friend is focusing on the country. There are reasons for that. The significant issues related to the Bill that apply directly to the population of London shows that any percentage increase capital. has a disproportionate effect on crime.Under the leadership of the current Mayor, London is undergoing a surge in Mr Deputy Speaker: I want to move the Bill on, and I violent crime. Since the beginning of his mayoralty, acid want to ensure that we do not need to have a time limit. attacks are up 65%, knife crime is up 44%, homicide is Please, let us carry on. up 16%, GBH is up 8% and rape is up 36%. Indeed, the chairman of the London Police and Crime Committee Dr Offord: Whether it is the Mayor of London or any has launched an inquiry into why policing in London is police and crime commissioner, I feel that they could all failing. He says that the rise is not only unacceptable do certain things to tackle knife crime, including better but deeply troubling. community engagement, better use of stop and search, Back in April, seven people were murdered in the and the provision of preventive initiatives. capital, and when asked repeatedly whether he had met There are several parts of the Bill which I have some the bereaved families, the Mayor told LBC Radio: concerns about. I am never convinced that attaining the “No, I haven’t spoken to the bereaved families. I’ve got a age of 18 should allow an individual to engage in any deputy mayor and a police commissioner...the point is that we are particular kind of behaviour or activity, whether that is a team.’’ drinking, voting, fighting in the armed forces or buying Well, I can say that, no, they are not. We introduced bleach. I therefore have some concerns about the age of police and crime commissioners so that someone was 18 with regard to the provisions in the Bill. It is my accountable—so that an individual could be held understanding that the Home Office does not regularly responsible. That job is held by one person, and in collect data on the age of those engaging in acid attacks, London it is the Mayor. He may have a team supporting but information collected from 39 forces showed that him, but he must take the lead, show leadership and only one in five acid attacks was committed by a person stop hiding behind his employees. His standard response under the age of 18. This leads to questions about to any criticism is to release a press release, but given the whether the person who has purchased the substances is fact that he has increased the budget of his press and over or under the age of 18. I hope the Minister will public relations team to £2.5 million, he has time to do take up this issue and legislate on it. that. Recently, he put out a press release asking schools While preparing for this debate, I had a look on the to take up his knife wand policy, which is laudable in its internet to see how easy it is to purchase a knife online—for aspiration, but he had a take-up rate of just 2.4% of example, on eBay. I was pleasantly surprised to find that London schools. That has to be wrong, and it is not flick knives, gravity knives and zombie knives are not keeping our children safe. readily available. However, kitchen knives are, so the In addition to the legislation that we are discussing provision in the Bill that seeks to ban knives being sent today, there are lots of other things that the Mayor of through the post does not seem to be a very effective use London can do to tackle knife crime. of the legislation, given that most knives used in crime usually come from kitchen drawers. Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle): May I just I would also like some detail on the proposal to make advise the hon. Gentleman that the Bill is not a personal the possession of a knife on a further education premises attack on the Mayor of London? [Interruption.] I am an offence. As has been mentioned, there are some sorry; did the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi scenarios where this is permissible. In the case of training, Kwarteng) say something? gamekeepers,chefs,cooks,hairdressers,electricians,builders and carpenters all require a bladed instrument, so in Kwasi Kwarteng: I didn’t say anything. many respects these people will have to be excluded from the provisions. Mr Deputy Speaker: I thank you for that, because The Bill seeks to ban the .5 calibre rifles that many otherwise I would have something to say and that Members have spoken about today, but these are legally would not be helpful to you. I am just trying to be held weapons. The owners have been vetted. They have constructive. We are on Second Reading of a Bill, and I been through a process where they have been judged to am allowing latitude, but Members must focus on the Bill. be not only competent but safe to own a gun. Many of them also regularly attend a club. I therefore have to Dr Offord: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. This is ask, what does this have to do with violent crime? The certainly not a personal attack. I can only illustrate my owners have exemplary records and are among the most experience in the capital—[Interruption.] law-abiding people in this country, so why are they being victimised when they have nothing to do with Mr Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Spelthorne violence, particularly in cities such as London? is helping out again. Let me just reassure you: the Bill is The reason I am very interested in knife crime is that about knife crime, and not about other issues. As much I witnessed someone being stabbed in 1990. It was, as as you think you are getting good advice from the hon. my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince) Gentleman, I would take your advice from the Chair. said, quite an experience. It certainly had an impact 985 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 986 on me. I was actually photographing at the time, and Some provisions in the Bill have rightly caused a was pleased that I managed to take a picture of the measure of concern among Conservative Members. perpetrator. He was subsequently convicted, but would The proposed ban on .5 calibre guns seems a little not have been if not for my picture. My recollection of excessive because, as many Members have pointed out, the person who fell into my arms with a big hole in his these guns have never been used, as far as we know, back will certainly never leave me. in the commission of violent crimes. Banning them We are approaching 80 murders within the capital therefore seems wholly disproportionate to the threat this year. I conclude by mentioning two people, who that they actually pose to members of the public. As has were both my constituents. Back in the winter in Mill been observed many times in this debate, people who Hill, Vijay Patel was punched, hit his head and died; possess these weapons are vetted. They have gone through and Raul Nicolaie was stabbed to death in his house. I a measure of screening. They are people who are law- believe that this legislation will ensure that such tragedies abiding. They pursue their interest in arms in clubs. do not occur in the future. I appeal to the Minister: if They practise their activities in highly regulated and there is to be any legacy from this legislation, let this be very safe conditions. her legacy, because the legacy of the Mayor of London currently is one of a lost generation. Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): The hon. Gentleman is entirely right. As he knows, the Bill has 5.58 pm been drafted in such a way as to refer not to .5 calibre rounds, but to 13,600 joules of energy. The reason for Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): I am delighted doing that is to include other weapons, including to speak in this debate, and, like a number of people, I .357 Lapua Magnum rifles, but that cannot account for have had the honour and privilege to sit through the the people who use home loads and lower the velocity vast proportion of it. The debate has been well conducted, of the round. The Bill is about whether the rifle is with a lot of speeches touching on a number of important capable of firing it. People do use home loads, and they issues. lower the capacity, the velocity and energy. The Bill The issue of knife crime and murder in our capital does not account for that at all. city of London is highly relevant to the Bill. Let no one pretend that what is happening in London has not Kwasi Kwarteng: As I suggested, there is a social directly influenced the Government in their desire to see context that gave birth to the Bill—a huge increase in some form of legislation on this particular issue. The violent crime and fatalities in London. The two things, situation in the capital is, frankly, scandalous. as I said, are related. If the Government are trying to When my hon. Friend the Member for North West address the issue of knife crime and fatalities in our Hampshire (Kit Malthouse) was Deputy Mayor in capital, it is beyond my imagination to understand why charge of policing, the crime rates were significantly .5 calibre guns should be banned as proposed in the lower than they are today. That was because of policy Bill. and political leadership. It is entirely legitimate to suggest that the kind of leadership that London had I am delighted that the Secretary of State has openly at that time no longer exists. It would be invidious, I and generously offered to meet MPs and other people fully agree, to blame the current Mayor of London for a wider consultation on the details in the Bill. entirely for the situation in the capital. I am not saying that it is all his fault, but he does bear some responsibility Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: The hon. Member for for it. Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) has put his finger on an It is no accident that, given the increase in knife crime interesting point. Clause 28(2) references “any rifle” and the increase in fatalities here in London—in our from which a shot of more than 13,600 joules can be capital—the Government have introduced the Bill. Those fired. The Bill is drafted much wider than just .5 calibre two events, I would suggest, are related. It is therefore weapons. entirely appropriate for Members who represent London seats—my seat is just outside London, but many of the Kwasi Kwarteng: That is a legitimate point. I hope issues in London pertain to the bit of Surrey that I that many of these difficulties and anomalies will be represent—to address and focus their remarks on the ironed out in Committee, because the Bill as drafted situation here in London. raises some interesting questions and, dare I say it, has a The Bill has many excellent provisions. Surely the number of holes. laws against selling dangerous acid to youngsters—to children, in many instances—are well overdue and will Broadly, we have to accept that something had to be be well received across the House. There are issues done.The new spate of acid attacks is largely unprecedented. relating to knives. My hon. Friend the Member for I understand, as a point of history,that in the 19th century Walsall North (Eddie Hughes) said that he thought it people used sulphuric acid and other noxious substances extraordinary that so-called zombie knives had not in this way, but for our generation this is completely been banned a long time ago. He was quite right to unprecedented, and it is quite right for the Government suggest that the manufacturers of these knives—and to legislate to curtail the sale of this offensive weapon. their designers, if one can call them that—clearly fully Broadly, this is a good Bill and I am fully happy to expected that the knives would be used not only to support its Second Reading, as I suspect are the vast commit grievous, violent crimes, but to threaten and majority of Members on both sides of the House, but I intimidate. There seems to be no other reason that such urge Ministers to consider some of the objections made knives should have been manufactured. Not even for in this wide-ranging and stimulating debate to certain ornamental reasons would the case be a strong one. of its provisions. 987 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 988

6.5 pm of foreign business transactions and of selling to UK domestic consumers, and it is time they bore responsibility Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con): Prior to the for what they are doing. debate, we were furnished with a huge number of statistics, and those statistics make stark and appalling reading, I understand the thinking behind the provisions in because behind every one of them is a real life that has clauses 28 and 29, relating to high muzzle velocity been lost, a family that has been destroyed or a person rifles, but in my view this precautionary principle left with life-changing disfigurement and injury.In 2017—a simply goes too far. As many right hon. and hon. particularly bad year—we saw a 22% increase in offences Members have mentioned, there are no cases at all of involving knives, an 11% increase in firearms offences high muzzle velocity or high-energy rifles being used in and a near tripling of recorded corrosive substance any criminal act. It is also beyond me how it was attacks. Within a few miles of where we sit, in the city decided that 13,600 joules—or 10,000 foot-pounds in of London, we have seen more than 70 murders just old money—should be the limit. Why not 13,500 joules this year. or 10,000 joules, or anything else? These are obviously powerful weapons, and they I am pleased that a good proportion of the Bill is could be used as a sniper rifle, for instance, but they devoted to putting on a statutory footing many of the have never been used as such. They are large, heavy and voluntary commitments that retailers have given over unwieldy,and they have never been used for such purposes. the last couple of years, and I know that many local For those who want to own such weapons, the reality is authorities have worked with local traders to implement that it is very difficult to get hold of one. People are codes of practice regarding knife and corrosive substance required to apply for a firearms certificate, which means sales. I am also pleased that the Bill extends to internet an interview by the local police force, a Disclosure and business-to-consumer sales, which is long overdue. Barring Service check and security measures in their Clauses 12 to 27 contain expansive measures to restrict house to ensure that any such weapon is securely stored, and control the supply and ownership of bladed items. while increasingly—this applies across many police forces— That has been mentioned at length this afternoon, not their vetting will need to be confirmed by a GP. least by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North Given the numbers involved, these provisions are ill (Eddie Hughes). We need a complete prohibition of thought out. As the Minister will be aware, the handgun— these things called zombie knives, which are particularly banned since 1997, but all too easily obtained and fearsome and have no value in what they look like. They illegally held—is the criminal’s weapon of choice. This are not like 18th-century samurai swords; they have one weapon is the killer on the street. Banning high-power sole purpose. They have cutting, serrated edges and are rifles, on the basis of what I consider an overweening deemed and bought to be threatening and offensive. precautionary principle, would be as daft as banning vans or lorries, which in some circumstances can be, Bob Stewart: I am particularly concerned that on the and have been, used as offensive and lethal weapons. internet, for under a tenner, one can buy a commando I support the thrust of the Bill—I absolutely support knife, which is the ultimate killing knife. the measures against bladed weapons and chemicals—but I ask for some sensible thinking about single-shot high- Craig Mackinlay: My hon. Friend is all too aware of energy rifles. I really beg the Minister to look again at the use of such weapons from his previous life. He internet facilitators, because it is time that they took makes a valid point—it is not just zombie knives. All responsibility for connecting businesses abroad with manner of offensive and dangerous weapons are available consumers at home and that they were held accountable out there. for what they are doing in the consumer market. The provisions related to bladed articles are proportionate, robust and to be welcomed. However, 6.13 pm the great problem, of which my hon. Friend the Member Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): Manyof my constituents for Hendon (Dr Offord) spoke, is that in every single in Chelmsford write to tell me how concerned they are kitchen in every single house there are the tools available about the changing nature of crime. They know that to cause havoc on our streets. No matter how we frame crime overall has dropped, but they see more crime the Bill, it is very difficult to legislate against the domestic happening online and more violent crime. This morning, knives that exist absolutely everywhere and are too I spoke to my police and crime commissioner to make often the weapon responsible for murders on the streets sure that I was fully up to date with what was happening of this country. on the streets. Violence with injury has increased by Also, we heard clearly from my hon. Friend the over 10% in Chelmsford in the past year, although that Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) that we must is lower than the national increase of 15%. Possession be careful not to criminalise the legitimate sale of bespoke, of weapons has increased by nearly 50%, and there has expensive cutlery by mail order. That is a consideration. been a rise in wounding with intent. The great difficulty, which I do not think this Bill My police and crime commissioner says that the fully addresses, is sale on the internet from foreign police are doing a great deal. Operation Raptor is under sources to domestic customers in this country. It is review, while Operation Survey, which is targeted at obviously impossible for a UK Bill to extend its remit serious violence, has also been helpful. They are launching extraterritorially, but I recommend that the Minister their new violence and vulnerability framework, and give serious thought, either this afternoon or in Committee, they believe that they can get ahead of this surge. to including in the Bill a provision for responsibility to However,they want to make more use of stop-and-search, fall on the agent company that has facilitated the trade— and a commitment to more policing resources. We whether a corporate body such as eBay or Amazon, or know that a lot of this is related to county lines, and something else. These have become the primary facilitators that the increased crime is related to the more complex 989 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 990 ways in which drugs are moved around the country by been bought and sold under our law without a licence gangs. The Government and Parliament need to take a because the UK has among the strongest—if not the lot of action. strongest—firearms legislation of anywhere in Europe. As elected politicians, our top priority is to care It was absolutely in our interest to make sure that the about the safety of those we represent, who expect us to rest of Europe rose to that challenge. act. The police and crime commissioner made a comment about extra resources. I was pleased to work last year Jim Shannon: The hon. Lady is correct about the with colleagues from across Essex in making a strong measures relating to firearms. Does she agree that those statement to the Policing Minister about the need to who transgress and break the law are not those who increase the cap on local police funding so that our have a licence to hold arms legally? The Government police would get the resources that they need. Those need to focus attention on the law breakers, not those extra 150 police officers are now being recruited and are who uphold the law. going into action across Chelmsford. Vicky Ford: I completely agree and that brings me to We can do more about some of the causes of crime. my next point. What I learnt from looking at our In an intervention, I mentioned the young people who firearms legislation, and firearms legislation across the are being recruited into drugs-related gangs through continent of Europe and in Ireland, is that there are online platforms. The evidence in the Science and many very good reasons why genuine law-abiding people Technology Committee was to do with drill music being may need to have a firearm. There are particular sensitivities played through YouTube; those who had written it relating to personal security in Northern Ireland, where could then directly message the young people. The many people have permission to hold firearms that point made in the Committee was that that could happen would not be permitted in other parts of the UK. The to any teenager and that no one is immune. That has devil is in the detail and it is really important detail. definitely been seen in Chelmsford. I believe that we will There are many legitimate reasons for why people might act on this issue through the internet safety strategy, want to hold firearms. They could be historical re-enactors, about which I have just had a meeting with the Secretary filmmakers—Britain has more filmmakers using firearms of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. than anywhere else in the world, which is one reason There is also the issue of what weapons are being why we have such an active filmmaking industry—farmers, used—that is why we are discussing this Bill about target shooters or people involved in the countryside. offensive weapons. We need to strengthen laws to prevent My concern is that the Bill makes changes to what the possession and sale of knives in particular. I have firearms are available to law-abiding citizens. Measures seen many images shared by my local police of knives have possibly been strengthened without thinking through that they have intercepted—particularly the “zombie all the consequences. If I may, Mr Speaker, I would like killer” type. I am pleased that the Government are to read just one email I received from a constituent: taking action on knives. “I completely agree with the other sections of the Bill, but There is also the issue of acid attacks. A few months believe that these restrictions on the shooting community unfairly ago, I visited Chelmsford mosque and spoke to some of target law-abiding members of our society. I am a keen target the young people about what they felt as they went shooter and police officer, and I don’t see how these restrictions will cut down on the amount of gun crime on our streets. I have around the streets these days. I was taken by how many yet to see any of this type of firearm that is due to be restricted young members of that community referred to how used in any criminal activity.” concerned they were about recent acid attacks, particularly If we are to tighten the law in this area, we need to make those carried out on some sort of religious grounds. If I sure that we maintain the confidence of the law-abiding can go back to that group now and say that we are gun-holding community and make sure we can explain strengthening the law to make it illegal for young people to them the evidence the Minister has seen for changing to buy acid and to carry it in a public place, that will be the law. an extremely important and positive message. I am glad that such provisions are in the Bill. 6.22 pm I turn to firearms legislation. I never expected to spend a lot of my life as a politician working on that Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): It is a pleasure issue, but I do spend an enormous amount of time on to follow the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford). it. I led the reform of European firearms legislation I have had the opportunity to listen to the majority of through the European Parliament a couple of years ago contributions to the debate, but I would like to start my following the Paris attacks in the Bataclan theatre, contribution by paying tribute to the Minister. She has where firearms that had supposedly been permanently gone out of her way—I have heard other Members refer deactivated—they therefore could be bought and sold to this as well—to go through the content of the Bill in without licences in many parts of Europe—were actually detail, and to listen thoughtfully, productively and not deactivated. Pins had simply been put through the passionately to the arguments put forward. She knows barrels; they were pulled out and the firearms were that most of our arguments with the Bill focus on the reactivated by the terrorists. Ninety people were murdered firearms aspects, but I shall speak about the whole Bill in that attack. in its current form. In the UK, we were not immune: 35 of those same My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham firearms were found in a marina on our shores, having (Bob Stewart) made a comment about not understanding been smuggled here. The then Home Secretary—the why anyone would need to buy acid if they were not a current Prime Minister—went to Europe and said that scientist. I can only assume that he can afford a very we needed to tighten up European gun laws because good cleaner who has to procure and use such acids in those affect our own security. I must make one point: his own home. There are many legitimate reasons why those incorrectly deactivated firearms could not have individuals might wish to buy acid—I am delighted for 991 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 992

[Gavin Robinson] privilege of doing so, I hope that members of this Bill’s Committee will take the opportunity to thoughtfully him that he does not have to go through the trials and consider the provisions and augment them in a way that tribulations of normal life like the rest of us—whether will ensure that the Bill will do what the Minister hopes. in a domestic setting, or for agricultural use. In industry, Let me turn, in particular, to the firearms provisions. hydrochloride is regularly used for cleaning. I made an intervention that touched on energy and There are legitimate reasons for buying acid, but velocity, and I think there are fundamental issues, which there have been incredibly harmful and distressing I raised with the Minister. The first is about safety. illegitimate uses of acid for personal attacks, and some When we consider safety, why is something above for personal defence. They horrify us. We have seen the 13,600 joules unsafe but something under that is not? news stories and the ramifications. We have seen the Why does this Parliament need to interject ourselves in efforts of countless passers-by and members of society this discussion? Are we saying that 13,599 joules is who come along with bottles of water to try to clear okay? Is it any less lethal? No, it is not. acid from a victim’s eyes and skin. It is obnoxious that anyone would seek to use domestic acids for such a Jim Shannon: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In cruel purpose. this Bill, the Government are considering removing It is right that we as a Parliament decide that enough .50 calibre rifles of a certain velocity.If someone shortens is enough and take steps to frustrate the purchase and the barrel or reduces the load, however, they can reduce illegal use of acid. This does not mean that acid will not the impact of a .50 calibre rifle or anything else of that be available if somebody really wants to get their hands size. There are other ways to do this so that law-abiding on it, but the Bill will empower the police, giving them people can obtain these guns. the powers to stop people having it who should not have it in a public place. That is the right step to take. Gavin Robinson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, The Minister also knows that we raised some practical but this is about the purpose of the Bill. What are we points relating to proposals on postage and delivery for trying to achieve? Is it to make the public safer? The the online purchase of blades. This issue is important, arbitrary figure of 13,600 joules cannot make the because if we look at Parliament’s consideration of public safer. We are talking about law-abiding sport online sales and its scrutiny through Select Committees enthusiasts who have been through all the processes, as of how online sellers and marketplaces describe themselves, has been discussed this afternoon. Are we saying that we see that they have thoughtfully avoided much of the 13,599 joules is okay, but 13,601 joules is not? It makes legislative restriction that we have sought to place on no sense. It is not just .50 calibre rifles either; it is them, because they say that they only facilitate sales and exactly the same for .357 Lapua Magnum rifles. It does that the contract is with the individual seller, not the not matter if someone home loads, as my hon. Friend marketplace. Whether it is Amazon or eBay, they have the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, and all argued, “Yes, you can have whatever legislative provision lowers the velocity of the round, because the Bill is you want, but it does not attach to us—it attaches to the framed so that what matters is not what they put person who uses us as a forum to sell.” through a firearm but what the firearm is capable of Whether we do this with online delivery charges and delivering. considerations around the unfairness of differences in I am afraid that the public safety test in the Bill does postal charges, it will be important, for the provision on not cut it. A .22 rifle can remove life and has a much the delivery of knives in particular, that we have complete lower velocity. Families often introduce their young buy-in and sign-up from the marketplaces, rather than ones to the sport of firearms shooting—target shooting, just the sellers. It is important to make sure that we plinking around the farm—with .22 rifles or air rifles, know who is buying the blade and that they are able to but a person can still lose their life from a .22. What, buy it—that they are of a legal age and we know their then, are we trying to achieve? What arguments and identity—and we need to make sure that all who are evidence base has the Home Office used to advance involved in the process adhere to the Bill. I hope that these provisions? I do not think they have any, and the Minister has thought about that, engaged with the neither do sporting enthusiasts throughout the country. online sellers and taken the opportunity to tell them There has never been any discernible or detected use of that they also have a duty in this process. rifles of this calibre, legally held, in the commission of a I was flicking through my phone 20 minutes ago—I crime. will not say who was speaking at the time, but it was no Some mention was made of the Northern Ireland reflection on their contribution—but zombie knives provisions that allow us to access handguns and other and combat knives are available for purchase. People firearms that people cannot access in the rest of the can go on websites that say, “Here are UK legal blades. UK. That is true. Several Members of this House are in Here are blades that fold, that are less than three inches, that position. Every time a person purchases a firearm that are suitable penknives for sporting purposes, and of that capacity—handgun size, whether a 9 mm, a so on,” but many other sites will callously sell something .40 calibre, a .45 ACP, or whatever—they must first that is designed to hurt, injure or kill. Having seen and apply for permission and show justifiable grounds for heard the outrageous and horrendous stories in our having one and then, shortly after purchasing it, hand it broadsheets, on our television screens, in our communities in to the police. They then take it away and put it and from our constituents, it is important that we take through forensics and ballistics testing so that if that steps—I am not saying that this is entirely the right way legally held and approved firearm were ever used and in to frame the legislation—to provide protection in our the commissioning of, or during, a crime and the case community. Having never had the privilege of serving left where it was used, the ballistics report would tell the on a Bill Committee and being very unlikely to have the police that it was that person’s firearm. 993 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 994

Sir Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con): Of course, the firearms certificate, and they are not what we should be hon. Gentleman was about to say that it is also subject considering today. We are talking about the lawful to a ministerial decision about who should be allowed pursuit of interest in a sport. That is something that we to carry a personal protection weapon in Northern should support, something that forms part of our Olympics Ireland. Is this not a very regulated market? set-up, and something that we, as a country, fund participants to engage in, be involved in, and represent Gavin Robinson: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely our country in. My hon. Friend the Member for Strangford right, but it is subject to a ministerial decision only if (Jim Shannon) knows David Calvert very well. Calvert the person fails to satisfy the conditions earlier in the is a Commonwealth Games and Olympics shooter and process. The right hon. Gentleman served as a Minister gold medallist from Northern Ireland, who excels in in the Northern Ireland Office and has regularly and the sport. routinely seen the constraints and strictures, and how As a Parliament, we want our society to be safe. As a strenuous is the process to ensure that only appropriately Parliament, we recognise that regulation is necessary. approved people have access to firearms and in an As a Parliament, we recognise that we should take steps appropriate way.The Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order to ensure that anyone who has access to something that 2004 and the guidance from the NIO outline the conditions is potentially lethal is controlled and monitored, and under which a person can make an application. that there are systems in place to ensure that it is as safe The important point, however, is that the ballistics as it can possibly be. However, in the absence of any and forensics evidence is there for those firearms. The rationale or evidence to justify this change, I think that same process could be applied to these circumstances. it is a step too far. The approach in the Bill is to constrain access to I welcome the Minister’s willingness to engage with 13,600 joules of energy—to use the term in the Bill—coming the issue, and I welcomed the Secretary of State’sindication from a firearm. A similar forensics report could be at the start of the debate that he would engage in made of that firearm and held by the state so that thoughtful consideration in the weeks ahead. I look should that legally held firearm ever be used in the forward to playing whatever part I can on the periphery commissioning of crime, which has never happened of the Committee to help to improve the Bill. before, the state would know whose weapon it was. It would be very simple, and I suggest that it should be 6.38 pm considered in Committee as a further step to strengthen Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab): This has been the existing provisions. a wide-ranging and, on the whole, thoughtful debate. Let me make another point, on which I know I will There is agreement across the House on the broad have no support from Conservative Members. In Northern themes of the Bill: the prohibition of the sale of corrosive Ireland, no one can have an air rifle unless it is registered substances to under-18s and the prohibition of the on a firearms certificate. An air rifle can be a deadly dispatch of bladed products and corrosive substances weapon. It may be a .177, it may take a small slug, it to residential addresses.I think it right that the Government may operate through the force of air rather than black are tackling the issue of online sales, and, more generally, powder, but it can still be a lethal weapon. Air rifles are the sale and possession of acid and knives. We want to not even registered on firearms certificates in England. ensure that death stars and zombie knives, which have However, we are imposing serious restrictions on sporting no purpose other than to cause harm, are no longer a pursuits which I think are unnecessary. problem on our streets. I have canvassed the Minister on the bump stock I counted no fewer than 20 Back-Bench speeches proposal, and I accept the argument that has been today. I pay particular tribute to the speech of my hon. advanced. I think it absolutely right that bump stocks Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), who cannot be used in this country, and that the Bill allows focused on corrosive substances and referred to the the police to seize them. That is a fair argument, and 85 attacks that had taken place in Newham. She rightly one that we support. As the Minister will know, it has drew attention to the physical and emotional impact of been argued that MARS rifles are useful to disabled such attacks on victims.She spoke with her usual knowledge shooters, giving access to the sport to those who have and passion, and I pay tribute to her for her sustained trouble handling bolts. I accept that, so far, none of the campaigning on this issue. Paralympic shooting organisations—or, indeed, any of I also pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member the national shooting organisations—have produced for East Ham (Stephen Timms) for his speech. He any evidence to substantiate that argument, but I trust focused on corrosive substances, and brought his technical that it will be considered later in the Bill’s passage. knowledge to bear on his analysis of the Bill and set out We need to engage in very productive consideration. a number of useful suggestions that I hope will be taken What are the reasons, what are the root causes, and into account as the Bill moves into Committee, not least how do we address the fears that are associated with the fact that the Home Office does not collect national some of these items? I have talked about the money statistics on acid attacks, and it would be very useful if that has just been invested in the .50 calibre range at it chose to do so. It is important—my hon. Friend the Silverstone, which was specifically designed to be a safe Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh) the shadow environment for the use of such rifles, but they will policing Minister made this point in her opening certainly not be used regularly in gangland crimes. We remarks—to review the list of substances that require a are talking about a rifle weighing 30 lb, which will cost licence for purchase, because that will surely evolve in £3,000 or £4,000. The Minister is well aware of some of the months and years to come. My right hon. Friend the the historic issues that have arisen in Northern Ireland Member for East Ham drew attention to the fact that when paramilitaries have had access to such weapons, police cuts have absolutely had consequences that should but they were never legally held, they were never on a be acknowledged. 995 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 996

[Nick Thomas-Symonds] of the law in respect of acid and knives is welcome, but if the Government were to simply stop here and assume I pay tribute to the intervention of my right hon. that the Bill will do everything, I fear that they would be Friend the Member for Delyn (David Hanson), who mistaken. said that it was essential that we protect shop workers, My right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham who are on the very frontline of the sale of some of described speaking to someone in his constituency, and these products. I thank the Home Secretary for his he made it absolutely clear that this issue should be positive reaction to that intervention, and I hope that looked at in a broader context. Unless, together with that will be looked at in Committee. the Bill, there is serious funding for the agencies that While we welcome the broad thrust of the Bill, it is of provide the necessary support to our young people and course on its own not enough; we need to look at this people right across our society, this legislation will not issue in a broader context. I have said previously in the be as effective as it needs to be. Above all, we must House that adequate resourcing on its own is not sufficient, think now about all those people who have been injured but it certainly is necessary. Ministers must acknowledge and had their lives adversely affected by the terrible that it cannot be said that police numbers are irrelevant. attacks on our streets. The debate today has on the Wehave seen that in a leaked Home Office document—we whole been positive, and it has recognised what people know that that is the advice that has been given—which have gone through. Let us now take the Bill into Committee says: and provide improvements where needed to ensure that “Since 2012-13, weighted crime demand on the police has it is effective, and that it is matched by the necessary risen, largely due to growth in recorded sex offences. At the same resources. time officers’ numbers have fallen by 5% since 2014. So resources dedicated to serious violence have come under 6.46 pm pressure and charge rates have dropped. This may have encouraged offenders.” The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Victoria Atkins): I am grateful to all That is the advice Ministers have been given. I know hon. and right hon. Members across the House for their they say that they never comment on leaks, but if they contributions to the debate. My hon. Friend the Member have not seen this document they should be asking for for Mansfield (Ben Bradley) said that this had been a it, and they should come clean on the impact that the constructive and thoughtful debate—that is sadly too cuts to our police have had on the rise in serious and rare in this House—and I agree with him. Colleagues violent crime. It is not only the 21,000 fewer police have made considered contributions, and it is clear that officers that have had an impact—so have the 18,000 fewer there is much common ground between us. The fact is support staff and the 6,800 fewer community support that we all want this violent crime to stop, and the Bill is officers. a tool with which the Government, and I hope Members I also draw attention to the wider austerity context, across the House, are trying to tackle this serious issue. and the impact that has had across our public services, It is apparent that everyone is committed to tackling not least on youth services in England. There has been a violent crime head on, and rightly so. Recorded knife substantial reduction in the number of youth workers, and gun crimes are on the increase, and hon. Members which has clearly had an impact on our young people. will know the devastating impact that those crimes have Work needs to be done across government to look at on communities across the country, not just in London. whether those leaving care, as well as those who are Before I go on to deal with the Bill, it is worth reflecting homeless and those who are excluded from school, on why the legislation is necessary. From the teenage receive appropriate support. It is a great shame that son stabbed to death outside a shop in Camden and the central Government funding for youth offending teams 15-year-old killed in Romford at the weekend to the has been reduced from £145 million in 2010-11 to just man in Liverpool whose arm was severed by a machete £72 million in 2017-18. That clearly has an impact on in a county lines punishment and the fatal stabbings in the ability of our young people to make a new life for Wolverhampton, and Sheffield—all those crimes and themselves and move away from a potential life of many more in every part of the country have left behind offending. them grieving families and devastated communities. I A number of the contributions across the House consider meeting the victims and the grieving families made it clear that multi-agency working is important, of these terrible crimes to be one of the most important and it absolutely is, but multi-agency working can only parts of my role. It is an essential part of my job, and be effective if all those agencies are properly funded and that is why, when I stand here at the Dispatch Box, I resourced. They can all make a contribution to what is a speak not just from my notes but from the heart. It is much broader problem in this context. for those people that I am helping the Government to We must not forget the situation in which this debate take this legislation through. takes place, because there are some sobering statistics We are clear that this is just a part of our strategy to on violent crime in our country. The number of violent tackle serious violence. We published the serious violence offences is now more than 1.3 million, compared with strategy in April, and its emphasis is on the themes that just 709,000 in 2009. There were nearly 40,000 offences we have heard so much about today. It is about early involving a knife or a sharp instrument in the year intervention, about prevention and about the community ending December 2017. That is a 22% increase on the drawing together and relying on local partners, as my previous year. There were well over 6,500 firearms hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight) offences last year—an 11% increase on the previous said. It is about us working together and seeing this not year. All those statistics give greater urgency to the need just as a law enforcement issue, important though that for the House to act, and yes, the Bill is certainly part of is, but as a societal issue as well. The measures in the that. We have made it absolutely clear that the tightening Bill will strengthen the powers available to the police to 997 Offensive Weapons Bill27 JUNE 2018 Offensive Weapons Bill 998 deal with such crimes. When a family has suffered a very large and heavy firearms that can shoot very large terrible crime, they want to feel that the police have the distances. One example I have been given is that they powers they need to bring the offenders to justice. The can shoot the distance between London Bridge and measures will not solve all crimes involving knives, guns Trafalgar Square—some 3,500 metres. I can share with and corrosives, but they are important. We must pursue the House the fact that there has been a recent increase and prosecute those who commit violent crimes. The in seizures at the United Kingdom border of higher- Bill gives the police and others the powers they need to powered weaponry and ordnance. The assessment is do so. that those weapons were destined for the criminal The corrosives measures in the Bill will help to stop marketplace, and that the criminal marketplace is showing young people getting hold of dangerous corrosives and a growing demand for more powerful weaponry. are supported by interested businesses. They build on the voluntary arrangements already in place and will Kwasi Kwarteng: Will my hon. Friend take an close down the sale of acids to under-18s, both online intervention? and offline. The Bill also creates an offence of possession of a corrosive in a public place so that police can take Victoria Atkins: I will finish my point if I may. additional action to prevent acid attacks. We know that That is the background against which we are operating. gang members decant corrosive substances into water Having received such an assessment, we must consider bottles to evade detection. This measure gives the police it with great care. We have a duty to consider it and to the powers they need. protect the public. I gently correct the suggestion that Other measures will help to stop young people getting such high-energy rifles have not been used in crime. As hold of knives online. That is a major concern of the the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) communities and charities we have worked with in said, high-energy rifles were used in the 1990s during drawing together the serious violence strategy. We know the troubles to kill people who were charged with securing that such sales have led to knives being used in crime. I Northern Ireland. We are listening, and, as I hope have seen some of the knives on sale online. As colleagues colleagues saw, I sat through the vast majority of the on both sides of the House have said, they have no debate. Those and other issues will be addressed in the practical use; they are clearly designed to glamorise conversations that my right hon. Friend the Home violence and encourage criminality, and are promoted Secretary and all the ministerial team will have with as such. colleagues on both sides of the House. I must pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member Mr John Hayes: My hon. Friend is right about the for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), who has devoted sale on the internet of those weapons, but the internet a great deal of time and energy not just to the Bill but to has other malevolent influences on young people. Several protecting our young people and tackling serious violence. hon. Members raised the issue of social media and its glamorisation of violence. Will she work with others to Theresa Villiers: Will the Minister acknowledge that, clamp down on those people who allow those images even assuming the Bill makes it to the statute book, we and messages to be broadcast to vulnerable young will not tackle this problem unless the Mayor of London people? and other police and crime commissioners take it very seriously and ensure that they hold their police to Victoria Atkins: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, account, set objectives for them and ensure that they not just for the concise and clear points he made in his deliver on this crucial work, as they did when my right contribution but for the poetry that he always brings to hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip our debates. (Boris Johnson) successfully got crime levels down? My hon. Friends the Members for Solihull and for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) also made the point about Victoria Atkins: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. social media. That is why the Home Office serious Indeed she and my hon. Friends the Members for violence strategy is funding the social media hub pilot, Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez), for Hendon which will give the Metropolitan police the powers they (Dr Offord) and for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) all need to work with social media companies to bring focused on the importance of local policing and local those videos down. I have seen drill videos; they are leadership in policing. We introduced police and crime horrific and they need to stop. commissioners to enable local people to have the power to influence policing in their local area. Of course, I The measures on the possession of offensive weapons very much enjoy working with the Mayor of London give the police the powers they need to act when people and, as far as we are concerned, more power to his have flick knives, zombie knives and other offensive elbow when it comes to local policing. weapons that have absolutely no place in our homes. A number of colleagues mentioned clause 28, which Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: My hon. Friend will have is on high-energy rifles. My right hon. Friend the Home heard the widespread concern in many different parts of Secretary said at the start of the debate that we will the United Kingdom. She seems to want to ban these listen to colleagues’ concerns. I reiterate that this is not big-calibre weapons solely on the basis that they might an attack on rural sports; it is a response to the threat get into the hands of a criminal or a terrorist. If that is assessment of the National Crime Agency and the the case, rather than ban them why does she not adopt police. my suggestion of improving the secure places where Given the strong concerns expressed, I will take a such weapons have to be held? There should be all the moment to explain how clause 28 came into being. For security, with the weapons checked in and out, to make those who are not familiar with such weapons, they are stealing them much more difficult. 999 Offensive Weapons Bill 27 JUNE 2018 1000

Victoria Atkins: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Proceedings on Consideration and up to and including his intervention and for his contribution. He and I have Third Reading been in constant conversation about this for some time. (4) Proceedings on Consideration and any proceedings in He will forgive me for not committing to changing the legislative grand committee shall (so far as not previously Bill on the Floor of the House, but we are in listening concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the mode. Indeed, I was in listening mode when my hon. moment of interruption on the day on which proceedings on Consideration are commenced. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) made a typically robust but thoughtful contribution, and it may (5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment be that we work together on looking into that. of interruption on that day. Lyn Brown: I urge the hon. Lady to be firm on the (6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and up to and issue of guns and gun control. She is loquacious on including Third Reading. being in listening mode, so will she answer my question Other proceedings on scheduling? She has only a couple of minutes left, and I hope she will get to it. (7) Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.— (Kelly Tolhurst.) Victoria Atkins: That is literally the next thing on my Question agreed to. to-do list. The hon. Lady and the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) are both relentless OFFENSIVE WEAPONS BILL (MONEY) campaigners on corrosive substances, and I have taken Queen’s recommendation signified. on board her point about adults supplying corrosive Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing substances to children. I will look into it, and perhaps Order No. 52(1)(a)), there are already laws to cover it. That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Offensive The substances in schedule 1 have been included on Weapons Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of the basis of recommendations provided by our scientific money provided by Parliament of compensation in respect of advisers at the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, surrendered weapons, firearms and ancillary equipment.—(Kelly which provides science and technology advice to the Tolhurst.) Government. We have tried to ensure that Parliament Question agreed to. can scrutinise the list, which is why it is in the Bill, but Mr Speaker: Before I proceed to the next business, I there is of course capacity to change and add to the have now to announce a correction to the result of schedule through regulation. today’sdeferred Division. There must have been a miscount I am cantering through, but I am grateful for the by those who attend to these matters. In respect of the contributions of my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen Question relating to healthcare and associated professionals, and Rowley Regis (James Morris), who brought his the Ayes were 465, not 467, and the Noes were 2, so the mental health expertise to the Chamber and showed the Ayes have it. complexity of the issues we face, and of the right hon. Member for East Ham—I know he is interested in Business without Debate banning sales to under-21s, but we do not feel we have the mechanisms to do that. SELECT COMMITTEE PRACTICE AND I am grateful to all colleagues who have emphasised PROCEDURE (EFFECTIVE WORKING) that this is not just an urban issue but a rural issue, too. There is real intent on both sides of the House to deal Motion made, with this, and I note that colleagues believe social media That this House approves the recommendations of the and internet companies should join us in our determination. Liaison Committee in its First Report of 2017-19 (HC 922); and accordingly orders that: That message is coming out loud and clear from this Government, and I commend the Bill to the House. (1) Standing Order No. 137A be amended by adding the following sub-paragraph to paragraph (1): “(e) to invite members Question put and agreed to. of any other committee to which this order applies to attend any Bill accordingly read a Second time. meeting and, at the discretion of the chair, ask questions of witnesses or otherwise participate in its proceedings; but no member of another committee so invited may move any motion or amendment, vote or count towards the quorum.”; and OFFENSIVE WEAPONS BILL (PROGRAMME) (2) until the end of this Session, notwithstanding Standing Order No. 125 (Select committees (admission of the public)), the Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing chair of a select committee may, with leave of that committee, be Order No. 83A(7)), accompanied at meetings other than oral evidence sessions by a single, nominated member of his or her personal staff, subject to That the following provisions shall apply to the Offensive any further conditions set from time to time by any resolution of Weapons Bill: the Liaison Committee; and those conditions must include Committal provision for the exclusion of any such person if any member of that committee indicates objection at any time.—(Kelly (1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee. Tolhurst.) Proceedings in Public Bill Committee Hon. Members: Object. (2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Kirstene Hair (Angus) (Con): On a point of order, Thursday 13 September 2018. Mr Speaker. I hope you can provide some guidance (3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on on how the record might be corrected in relation to the first day on which it meets. remarks made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North 1001 Business without Debate 27 JUNE 2018 1002

(Kirsty Blackman) a short while ago in a Westminster Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS Hall debate on coastal erosion. The hon. Lady said that Foundation Trust: Governance my local authority, Angus Council, had not committed to use the full funding provided for the purpose of Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House protecting against coastal erosion, and she went on to do now adjourn.—(Kelly Tolhurst.) make a series of disparaging connected remarks. Angus Council has now written to the hon. Lady to inform her 7.3 pm that those remarks were wrong and that it has in fact Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): At the committed all the moneys it has received from the beginning of this year, it was announced that the chair Scottish Government’s capital funding to flood-risk of the Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation management actions. The council has requested an Trust, Ian Johnson, would be stepping down at Easter. I explanation as to her remarks, but could you, Mr Speaker, had always found him approachable and helpful in my advise me as to how the record can be corrected in this regular meetings with him to discuss the trust’s work. place? For the avoidance of doubt, I should say that although the trust is in the constituency of the hon. Member for Mr Speaker: Well, as I think the puckish grin on the Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), who is hon. Lady’s face testifies, she realises that she has found sitting on the Government Front Bench, it covers not her own salvation: she has in her own terms corrected just my constituency and his, but those of the hon. the record in respect of those important matters. I Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies), the right hon. detect a glow of contentment on her part, as she has Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace) and achieved her objective by the tried and tested ruse of an my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood entirely bogus point of order. I hope that satisfies her (Cat Smith). for now. When it was subsequently announced that Mr Johnson had applied to become chair of the University Hospitals of Morecambe Bay Foundation Trust, I was mildly surprised, but thought nothing more of it. I was then interested, as I am sure others were—this was sent to myself and neighbouring MPs—to receive an email from the secretary of the trust encouraging us to go forward and talk about the process for Mr Johnson’s successor. I had no inkling then of the sequence of events that would lead me to seek this Adjournment debate. What started to concern me about the circulation of this information was the extraordinarily short period of time that we were given. I did write to the secretary of the trust to ask why we had not been given earlier notice of the facts.When I found out that the advertisement had been placed in The Times, the date for the application was 16 April, which was within a very short period of time. I said that I would like more details on the shortlisting, the interviews and the interviewing panel. I said that I was sure that the trust would understand how important it was that there should be a strong transparency in the trust at such a critical point at this time. I got a slightly thin but soothing note from Michael Hearty, a governor of the trust, who announced himself as the chair of the nominations committee. He said: “Let me first of all reassure you about the openness and transparency of the current Chair recruitment process.” He took me through the process, and he did indeed confirm that it would be very speedy. He said that a long list of candidates had been presented to the nominations committee, but the list was not actually very long. It was a list of only eight, which makes me wonder why all the candidates were not interviewed. There was then a very short process of presentations to stakeholders and final interviews. I wrote back to the governor and said that I thought there were still “serious questions” to be answered, particularly about the fact that there was no information about the closing date for applications. I asked him whether he would list the members of the nominations committee, and said that I was concerned that it had taken a week to provide me with merely a basic timeline regarding some of the questions that I had asked. 1003 Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS 27 JUNE 2018 Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS 1004 Foundation Trust: Governance Foundation Trust: Governance [Gordon Marsden] and so on. I asked him therefore to think very carefully as to whether this process should be “paused and The second letter that I received from the governor recalibrated”because I believed that there was a significant was written in a rather smooth but slightly condescending danger that the clear protocols in the governors’ manual fashion. He said: had been breached. “I am disappointed that my original response did not provide Well, he did not do that. In fact, an email was then you with all the assurances that you were seeking and, as a sent by Sue Crouch, the lead governor, saying that consequence, you have found the need to ask further questions.” although the constitution clearly indicated that the As for the advertising of the process, he said that it was chief executive should be a member of the nominations the first time that the trust had taken such a step, and committee, given the feedback from governors, Wendy that, in view of the progression, it thought that it would had graciously offered to withdraw in the best interest be open and transparent to let people know about it. He of the process. But, of course, by that time she had said: taken part in three quarters of the process, and whether “I am sure you will recognise its circulation as a well-intentioned it was a gracious withdrawal or otherwise, I have no act”, knowledge. That was not a very good situation. although the closing date was an obvious piece of detail I had become concerned about the situation with the that could have been included in the original email. trust and had therefore written to NHS Improvement to At this point, I began to think of the old proverb that ask the same sorts of questions on what its role should says: be. I initially got back a letter from the director for the “The louder he talked of his honour, the faster we counted our north region, Lyn Simpson, who said that NHS spoons.” Improvement is not involved in the recruitment of chairs I said to the governor in response that I did not think of foundation trusts, which, of course, was not what I that this was very transparent. I asked him who had had asked her. She said that the trust had given its appointed the nominations committee, and he told me assurances that this recruitment process was in line with that it was appointed by the governors. I am still at a the constitution, as well as open, transparent and governor- loss to understand why the shortlisting involved such a led, but she did not give any grounds for that advice. hurry. I went back to Lyn Simpson, reminding her that I The other thing that bothered me was the inclusion had had guidance from the House of Commons Library of the chief executive of the trust, Wendy Swift, on the that foundation trusts are accountable to Monitor, which nominations committee. I laid out my concerns in an is now part of NHS Improvement. I had looked at the email to fellow MPs that I sent to them on 16 May, in code of governance published by Monitor,which specifically which I said: referred to the appointment of chair, so I asked her to “the inclusion of the Chief Executive on that Committee, which respond more fully. She did respond again, but said that effectively has overseen all aspects of this process, has prepared there was no legal basis on which NHS Improvement the short list of candidates and will presumably make a could intervene in the appointment of a foundation recommendation to Governors this Friday. I believe that to give trust chair. I did not find that very acceptable, but I did any Chief Executive so prominent a role overseeing that process, note that she said that Dr Kirkup’s recent governance as opposed to that person perfectly reasonably but separately report, published in February 2018, had highlighted the giving thoughts and feedback to it, could be seen as anomalous in role that NHS Improvement plays in board appointments the context of the necessary future relationship of the new Chair to the Chief Exec. as “not sufficiently clear.” I said that I had Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Quite clearly, if “taken these steps to question what has gone on (with some procedure has not been followed, as the hon. Gentleman reluctance and I think for the first time in my 20-years relationship with the Trust)” has outlined, surely at some stage he has to refer this case to the Local Government and Social Care because of my real concerns for the procedure, not for Ombudsman. That must be a way of getting action the individuals, because at that stage neither I nor given that this procedure has not been followed. anybody else knew who had applied or been shortlisted. I then looked at the constitution of the trust and the Gordon Marsden: It might be, but I am hoping that manual of the council of governors. That manual made the Minister might be able to make some comments on it very clear that the chief executive was not automatically these issues today, because NHS Improvement has to one of the members of the committee. The role of the fulfil its duties under legislation, and I do not believe council of governors is, of course, to hold the executive that it has done that very well. to account, so the chief executive could have acted in an advisory capacity, but not as a member. The trust’s I received another letter expressing pleasure that the constitution said that she should be a member, so both trust had responded positively with the concerns on the of them could not be correct. point that I had raised, but that was really a question of shutting the door after the horse had bolted, for the I wrote again to Mr Hearty on 17 May and said that reasons that I have explained. I then wrote again, asking the council of governors is for a response from Mr Hearty. I did not get that, but I “responsible for establishing the Nominations Committee”. did get a reply from Sue Crouch, who told me about the I said that it is very clear that the chair’s appointment is meeting to confirm the candidate who was going to be its responsibility and that presented. That candidate turned out to be Mr Pearse “the only reference to the Chief Executive occurs in the section on Butler, who coincidentally had just stepped down as Attendance at the Nominations Committee…It does not give any chair of the Morecambe Bay NHS Foundation Trust, licence to the Chief Executive to sit as a fully-fledged to which the former chair of the Blackpool trust was member…determining all the processes, shortlisting candidates” about to go. I finally got to see the minutes of the 1005 Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS 27 JUNE 2018 Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS 1006 Foundation Trust: Governance Foundation Trust: Governance process, and I was told that the discussion panels had politeness attempting to conceal a determined effort to worked well but that there had been a difference of override public governors unless they were rubber-stamped, opinion about the candidates. and indeed delaying so as to block out others such as I was also then told by a number of people that the myself from discussing these things, would do the trick. proceedings at the confirmation were rather irregular. Well, it does not do the trick, and it is frankly an insult According to governors, not only did Michael Hearty to all the hard-working staff who have worked their ignore the request from three governors for a secret socks off in the past few months in recent crises at vote, but he said that abstentions would count as a yes Blackpool Victoria Hospital. vote, which struck me as a rather strange position. For The use of the words “confidential” and “highly obvious reasons, and because the trust has larded around confidential” by the lead governor, Sue Crouch, could a lot of “confidentials” and “highly confidentials” on be seen as an attempt to intimidate or gag governors various things, I am not going to name the governors who had legitimate concerns about the process. I am who have spoken to me, although they are perfectly very concerned about that. As I say, I have circulated prepared to talk to people about it. I will just quote this letter to all my neighbouring MPs. My hon. Friend what one governor said: the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat Smith) “A few governors, including the Chief executive were involved is unable to be here today, but she asked specifically for in the recruitment process. The rest of the Governors were asked me to indicate that she shares my concern about the to attend presentations and panels as part of the recruitment governance of the hospital. I understand that the hon. process. I requested, on a number of occasions, the criteria and Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies), who is also away weighting for the presentations and the panels, including set questions. These were not sent. At the presentations, pieces of paper were from Parliament, has said that he has a number of presented on which we could make unstructured comments. These issues with the governance. were supposed to be weighted, however there was no…criteria to I ask the Minister to reflect on whether we need some do so…Candidate were questioned at each panel. No questions form of inquiry into the process that went on at the were pre set in advance…We were asked to choose a candidate Blackpool trust. I can assure him that some of the based on the activities. There was disagreement from a number of governors who have shared the concerns that I have are people…about the preferred candidate for Chair…At the council of governors meeting called to ratify the appointment there was prepared to give evidence on that. We need some clarity discussion about the process and the selection. A paper ballot was as to the role of NHS Improvement, because it is refused and a show of hands insisted on.” supposed to be a backstop to addressing both stakeholder I have a further comment from someone who will and individual concerns, but in this instance it seemed again remain nameless, but was a senior manager at all too ready to accept the version of events from the Blackpool Vic and in other organisations in the past. people who had convened all this and the way they He wrote to me to say that the council of governors had wanted it to go. always been viewed as an inconvenient necessity rather The principle that governors should not feel pressured than a valued part of the trust governance arrangement. or fettered is very important. If the Government want I found that very disturbing and concerning. to encourage democratic involvement in the NHS—a One might have thought at that stage that the trust, real people’s NHS in its 70th year—there is a lot more and certainly the nominations committee, would have to do to support and enable people to secure those paused for thought, given all these criticisms from the rights of representation. Members of Parliament who governors, but we have had the same process for the raise legitimate issues of transparency should be able to appointment of a new non-executive director, not the get proper answers. clinical director.Again, there were two panels of candidates, I have no idea whether Mr Pearse Butler, who was who again included the chief executive, Wendy Swift. I announced as the new chair on 18 May, will be a good, understand that the chair-designate was present on this bad or indifferent chair of the trust, but I am clear that occasion as well. Let us call the two candidates X and Y. the process by which he was appointed was deeply Panel 1 had preferred candidate X by four votes to two, flawed and not transparent. and panel 2 had gone for the same candidate unanimously, but the nominations committee had recommended 7.19 pm candidate Y. It is not surprising, therefore, that many trust governors have so far not gone back to ratify this The Minister for Health (Stephen Barclay): May I appointment in any shape or form. begin by thanking the hon. Member for Blackpool Those are some of the issues that have come out of South (Gordon Marsden) for securing the debate? I am this, and I want to make one or two observations in pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool conclusion. The chair of any health trust is crucial, North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) in his place, and I particularly in the difficult circumstances in which the know that both my hon. Friend the Member for Fylde Blackpool trust finds itself: still requiring improvement, (Mark Menzies) and the hon. Member for Lancaster according to the Care Quality Commission, and hit and Fleetwood (Cat Smith) have expressed an interest hard by the strains of morbidity and the impacts of in the issue. transience and demography, which put extra pressure The issues raised by the hon. Member for Blackpool on. We therefore need the process for the appointment South are clearly a cause for concern. While the CQC of a chair or non-executive director to be as transparent has not identified any governance issues in the trust, it is and reaching-out as possible, not a cosy old pals act clear that the recruitment process for the new chair had reinforced by groupthink. That is what has sometimes a number of irregularities. One of the defining features come up through the bureaucracy. of our approach to the NHS since the Francis report I am forced to conclude that the nominations committee has been a willingness to face up to difficult issues. I thought that it could get away with evading proper therefore welcome the opportunity to focus on these scrutiny and transparency—that a thin veneer of irritated irregularities and will address each in turn. 1007 Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS 27 JUNE 2018 Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS 1008 Foundation Trust: Governance Foundation Trust: Governance [Stephen Barclay] that the recruitment process was taking place. However, as the hon. Gentleman has highlighted, there was little The previous chair of the trust resigned in January 2018 time between that email being sent and the closing date to take up the role of chair in another, nearby foundation for applications—10 working days over the Easter holiday trust, University Hospitals of Morecambe Bay. That period. The email did not include the closing date for caused a recruitment process for the chair of Blackpool applications, further hampering MPs’ability to contribute Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust to commence effectively to the process. in February this year. Autonomy in appointing executives I understand that the recruitment process began in is an important NHS foundation trust freedom. As a February and concluded in May, with the new chair in foundation trust, Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS post from 1 June. The recruitment company has confirmed Foundation Trust has the freedom to determine many that this process was run to a standard timeframe. That of its own policies and procedures, including those raises the question of why the local engagement, an relating to the appointment of a new chair. important part of the overall appointments process, The process followed by Blackpool is explained in the appears to have been rushed in this instance. There are trust’s own constitution, which sets out the make-up of clearly lessons to be learned, and I will be working with the nominations committee responsible for senior NHSI to ensure that its guidance is refreshed, and that appointments.That committee is made up of six individuals, it is clear in its advice to foundation trusts and trusts including the chair, or another senior role if the chair is about the importance of local engagement. the position being recruited for, as well as three governors The hon. Gentleman’s letter to the trust of 17 May and the chief executive.The sixth member is an independent referenced the trust’s council manual, pointing out that assessor—in this case, the chair from another foundation it did not include any reference to the chief executive trust, Salford Royal. sitting on the nominations panel. This document sits This is where the first irregularity arises. NHS under the constitution of the trust, and I am satisfied Improvement guidance states that a foundation trust’s that the explicit rules addressing this matter in the chief executive should not be permitted to vote on the constitution have been followed. I have today received a appointment of the chair to whom he or she will be personal assurance from the trust chief executive, Wendy accountable. However, in this case, the chief executive Swift, that the trust will review its constitution to remove was on the nominations committee for this role. While any ambiguity in respect of the appointment of the she did not breach the guidance, it is clear to me that if chair and non-executive directors. a chief executive should not vote on the appointment of Just to reassure the hon. Gentleman, I will read the chair, it follows that a chief executive should also directly from that letter to me: not be involved earlier in the appointments process, “I would like to reassure you that we had already taken a given the relationship of accountability that exists between decision to review our Constitution to remove any ambiguity in chief executives and chairs of NHS trusts and foundation respect of the appointment of the Chair and Non-Executive trusts. Directors.” However, I recognise that that instruction was deep I will happily share that letter with the hon. Gentleman. within guidance dating from 2012, and there have been The independent assessor on the panel was the chair other pieces of NHSI guidance for foundation trusts of Salford Royal NHS Foundation Trust. He agreed as regarding their governance arrangements that did not to the candidate recommended by the nominations contain similar advice. There is an expectation that committee’s interview panel to the council of governors, advice and guidance given to NHS trusts is clear and and has not raised objections about how the process to understandable. I have been informed that guidance on recruit the new chair was run. I have had a personal this topic is being refreshed by NHSI as part of the assurance from the chief executive that there has been review of NHSI’s role in board appointments following no contact between her and the chair of Salford Royal Dr Kirkup’s findings in relation to Liverpool Community NHS Foundation Trust, and that she has not in any way Health NHS Trust, to which the hon. Member for tried to influence the decision-making process leading Blackpool South referred, and I have asked for the to the chair’s appointment. lessons learned to be fed into that refresh. The chief executive’s letter to me, dated 27 June—it The chief executive did voluntarily stand back from might be helpful to the House if I quote it—goes on: the process after concerns were raised by the hon. “I did know the new Chair on a professional basis prior to his Gentleman regarding her involvement. That was before appointment. We have worked within the same Health Economy the final interview was held for any of the candidates. for a number of years and attended the same strategic meetings Though it might be fair to ask whether involving the and events. For clarity, the Chair was the Chief Executive of the Strategic Health Authority (2002-2006) whilst I was the Chief chief executive in the recruitment of the chair was the Executive of Blackpool PCT. After 2006, there were no personal wisest course of action, it was within the trust’sconstitution. or professional links until the Chair was appointed as the Chair The second irregularity is the response from NHSI to of the University Hospitals of Morecambe BayNHS FT (2014-2018).” the hon. Gentleman’s letter of 3 May, which fails to It is clearly difficult to reconcile the involvement of refer to its own guidance regarding the need to ensure chief executives in the process of selecting chairs with that the chief executive is not permitted to vote on the principles of good governance. This appointment took appointment of a chair to whom he or she will be place under the system of foundation trust autonomy accountable. That is regrettable, and I understand that put in place under successive Governments, and is a NHSI will write again to him to apologise for that error. matter for the foundation trusts themselves. However, The third irregularity highlighted is the speed of the NHSI recognises that the role it plays in board process. The nominations committee engaged recruitment appointments, both executive and non-executive, is not consultants GatenbySanderson to provide professional sufficiently clear and that there would be benefit in services during the recruitment process. Part of that reviewing and codifying its oversight and support process involved emailing local MPs to inform them arrangements. 1009 Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS 27 JUNE 2018 Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS 1010 Foundation Trust: Governance Foundation Trust: Governance While any such changes should pay due regard to the appointment. I hope that my response goes some way to fact that autonomy in appointing executives is an important reassuring him that NHSI will work with the Department NHS foundation trust freedom, I assure the House that to ensure that further irregularities do not occur. I will be working with NHSI to ensure that the irregularities Question put and agreed to. regarding this appointment do not occur in the future. The hon. Gentleman has done the House a service in 7.29 pm highlighting the clear irregularities in respect of this House adjourned. 1011 27 JUNE 2018 Deferred Division 1012

Deferred Division Dunne, Mr Philip Hart, Simon Eagle, Ms Angela Hayes, Helen Eagle, Maria Hayman, Sue HEALTHCARE AND ASSOCIATED PROFESSIONS Efford, Clive Heald, rh Sir Oliver That the draft Nursing and Midwifery (Amendment) Order Elliott, Julie Heappey, James 2018, which was laid before this House on 17 May, be approved. Ellis, Michael Heaton-Harris, Chris The House divided: Ayes 465, Noes 2. Ellman, Dame Louise Heaton-Jones, Peter Division No. 197] Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Henderson, Gordon Elmore, Chris Hepburn, Mr Stephen Elphicke, Charlie Herbert, rh Nick AYES Esterson, Bill Hermon, Lady Abbott, rh Ms Diane Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Eustice, George Hill, Mike Abrahams, Debbie Cartlidge, James Evans, Chris Hillier, Meg Adams, Nigel Cash, Sir William Evennett, rh Sir David Hinds, rh Damian Afolami, Bim Caulfield, Maria Fabricant, Michael Hoare, Simon Afriyie, Adam Chalk, Alex Fallon, rh Sir Michael Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Aldous, Peter Chapman, Jenny Farron, Tim Hollern, Kate Allan, Lucy Charalambous, Bambos Field, rh Mark Hollingbery, George Allen, Heidi Chishti, Rehman Fitzpatrick, Jim Hollinrake, Kevin Amesbury, Mike Churchill, Jo Fletcher, Colleen Hollobone, Mr Philip Amess, Sir David Clark, Colin Flint, rh Caroline Holloway, Adam Andrew, Stuart Clark, rh Greg Ford, Vicky Hopkins, Kelvin Antoniazzi, Tonia Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Foster, Kevin Howarth, rh Mr George Argar, Edward Clarke, Mr Simon Fox, rh Dr Liam Huddleston, Nigel Ashworth, Jonathan Cleverly, James Francois, rh Mr Mark Hughes, Eddie Atkins, Victoria Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Frazer, Lucy Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Austin, Ian Clwyd, rh Ann Freer, Mike Huq, Dr Rupa Badenoch, Mrs Kemi Coffey, Dr Thérèse Frith, James Hurd, rh Mr Nick Bailey, Mr Adrian Collins, Damian Fysh, Mr Marcus Hussain, Imran Baker, Mr Steve Cooper, Julie Gapes, Mike Jack, Mr Alister Baldwin, Harriett Cooper, Rosie Garnier, Mark James, Margot Barclay, Stephen Corbyn, rh Jeremy George, Ruth Jarvis, Dan Baron, Mr John Costa, Alberto Ghani, Ms Nusrat Javid, rh Sajid Bebb, Guto Courts, Robert Gibb, rh Nick Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Beckett, rh Margaret Cox, Mr Geoffrey Girvan, Paul Jenkin, Sir Bernard Benn, rh Hilary Coyle, Neil Glen, John Jenrick, Robert Benyon, rh Richard Crabb, rh Stephen Glindon, Mary Johnson, Dr Caroline Beresford, Sir Paul Creagh, Mary Goldsmith, Zac Johnson, Diana Berry, Jake Crouch, Tracey Goodman, Helen Johnson, Gareth Betts, Mr Clive Cruddas, Jon Gove, rh Michael Johnson, Joseph Blackman, Bob Cunningham, Alex Graham, Luke Jones, Andrew Blackman-Woods, Dr Roberta Cunningham, Mr Jim Graham, Richard Jones, Darren Blomfield, Paul Daby, Janet Grant, Bill Jones, rh Mr David Blunt, Crispin Dakin, Nic Grant, Mrs Helen Jones, Gerald Boles, Nick Davey, rh Sir Edward Gray, James Jones, Mr Marcus Bone, Mr Peter Davies, Chris Grayling, rh Chris Kane, Mike Bottomley, Sir Peter Davies, David T. C. Green, Chris Kawczynski, Daniel Bowie, Andrew Davies, Glyn Green, rh Damian Keegan, Gillian Bradley, Ben Davies, Mims Green, Kate Keeley, Barbara Bradley, rh Karen Davis, rh Mr David Greening, rh Justine Kennedy, Seema Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Debbonaire, Thangam Greenwood, Lilian Kerr, Stephen Brady, Sir Graham Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Greenwood, Margaret Khan, Afzal Braverman, Suella Dinenage, Caroline Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Knight, rh Sir Greg Brennan, Kevin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Griffith, Nia Knight, Julian Brereton, Jack Docherty, Leo Griffiths, Andrew Kwarteng, Kwasi Bridgen, Andrew Dodds, Anneliese Grogan, John Kyle, Peter Brine, Steve Dodds, rh Nigel Gyimah, Mr Sam Laird, Lesley Brokenshire, rh James Donelan, Michelle Haigh, Louise Lamont, John Brown, Lyn Dorries, Ms Nadine Hair, Kirstene Lancaster, rh Mark Bruce, Fiona Double, Steve Halfon, rh Robert Lavery, Ian Bryant, Chris Doughty, Stephen Hall, Luke Leadsom, rh Andrea Buckland, Robert Dowd, Peter Hammond, Stephen Lee, Karen Burghart, Alex Dowden, Oliver Hancock, rh Matt Lee, Dr Phillip Burgon, Richard Doyle-Price, Jackie Hands, rh Greg Lefroy, Jeremy Burns, Conor Drax, Richard Hanson, rh David Leslie, Mr Chris Butler, Dawn Drew, Dr David Hardy, Emma Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Byrne, rh Liam Dromey, Jack Harman, rh Ms Harriet Lewer, Andrew Cadbury, Ruth Duddridge, James Harper, rh Mr Mark Lewis, Clive Cairns, rh Alun Duffield, Rosie Harrington, Richard Lewis, rh Dr Julian Campbell, Mr Gregory Duguid, David Harris, Carolyn Lidington, rh Mr David Campbell, Mr Ronnie Duncan, rh Sir Alan Harris, Rebecca Lloyd, Stephen Carden, Dan Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Harrison, Trudy Lloyd, Tony 1013 Deferred Division 27 JUNE 2018 Deferred Division 1014

Lopez, Julia Newton, Sarah Rowley, Danielle Syms, Sir Robert Lopresti, Jack Nokes, rh Caroline Rowley, Lee Tami, Mark Lord, Mr Jonathan Norman, Jesse Ruane, Chris Thomas-Symonds, Nick Loughton, Tim Norris, Alex Rudd, rh Amber Thornberry, rh Emily Lucas, Caroline O’Brien, Neil Rutley, David Throup, Maggie Lucas, Ian C. Offord, Dr Matthew Sandbach, Antoinette Timms, rh Stephen Mackinlay, Craig Onasanya, Fiona Selous, Andrew Tolhurst, Kelly Maclean, Rachel Onn, Melanie Shannon, Jim Tomlinson, Justin Madders, Justin Onwurah, Chi Shapps, rh Grant Tomlinson, Michael Mahmood, Mr Khalid Opperman, Guy Sharma, Alok Tracey, Craig Main, Mrs Anne Owen, Albert Sharma, Mr Virendra Tredinnick, David Mak, Alan Paisley, Ian Sheerman, Mr Barry Trevelyan, Mrs Anne-Marie Malthouse, Kit Parish, Neil Shelbrooke, Alec Trickett, Jon Mann, John Patel, rh Priti Sherriff, Paula Truss, rh Elizabeth Mann, Scott Paterson, rh Mr Owen Simpson, David Tugendhat, Tom Martin, Sandy Pawsey, Mark Simpson, rh Mr Twist, Liz Maskell, Rachael Peacock, Stephanie Keith Vaizey, rh Mr Edward Masterton, Paul Pearce, Teresa Skidmore, Chris Vara, Mr Shailesh Matheson, Christian Penning, rh Sir Mike Skinner, Mr Dennis Vaz, Valerie May, rh Mrs Theresa Pennycook, Matthew Smeeth, Ruth Vickers, Martin Maynard, Paul Penrose, John Smith, Chloe Villiers, rh Theresa McDonagh, Siobhain Percy, Andrew Smith, Eleanor Walker, Mr Charles McDonald, Andy Perry, rh Claire Smith, rh Julian Walker, Mr Robin McFadden, rh Mr Pat Phillips, Jess Smith, Laura Walker, Thelma McInnes, Liz Phillipson, Bridget Smith, Nick Wallace, rh Mr Ben McKinnell, Catherine Philp, Chris Smith, Owen Warburton, David McLoughlin, rh Sir Patrick Pincher, Christopher Smith, Royston Warman, Matt McMorrin, Anna Platt, Jo Snell, Gareth Watling, Giles McVey, rh Ms Esther Pollard, Luke Soames, rh Sir Nicholas Western, Matt Mearns, Ian Poulter, Dr Dan Soubry, rh Anna Whately, Helen Mercer, Johnny Pound, Stephen Spellar, rh John Wheeler, Mrs Heather Merriman, Huw Pow, Rebecca Spelman, rh Dame Caroline Whitehead, Dr Alan Metcalfe, Stephen Powell, Lucy Spencer, Mark Whittaker, Craig Miliband, rh Edward Prentis, Victoria Stephenson, Andrew Whittingdale, rh Mr Miller, rh Mrs Maria Prisk, Mr Mark Stevens, Jo John Milling, Amanda Pritchard, Mark Stevenson, John Wiggin, Bill Mills, Nigel Pursglove, Tom Stewart, Bob Williams, Dr Paul Milton, rh Anne Quin, Jeremy Stewart, Iain Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Quince, Will Stewart, Rory Williamson, Chris Moon, Mrs Madeleine Qureshi, Yasmin Streeter, Mr Gary Williamson, rh Gavin Moore, Damien Raab, Dominic Stride, rh Mel Wollaston, Dr Sarah Mordaunt, rh Penny Rashid, Faisal Stringer, Graham Wood, Mike Morden, Jessica Rayner, Angela Sturdy, Julian Wragg, Mr William Morgan, rh Nicky Redwood, rh John Sunak, Rishi Wright, rh Jeremy Morgan, Stephen Rees, Christina Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Yasin, Mohammad Morris, Anne Marie Rees-Mogg, Mr Jacob Sweeney, Mr Paul Zahawi, Nadhim Morris, David Reeves, Ellie Swire, rh Sir Hugo Zeichner, Daniel Morris, Grahame Reynolds, Emma Morris, James Rimmer, Ms Marie NOES Morton, Wendy Robertson, Mr Laurence Mundell, rh David Robinson, Gavin Cable, rh Sir Vince Godsiff, Mr Roger Murray, Mrs Sheryll Robinson, Mary Murrison, Dr Andrew Rosindell, Andrew Question accordingly agreed to. Neill, Robert Ross, Douglas

361WH 27 JUNE 2018 Healthcare on English Islands 362WH

providing local government services on the Isle of Wight Westminster Hall are some £6.4 million a year. Coincidentally, that is similar to the amount of money that Orkney, Shetland Wednesday 27 June 2018 and the Western Isles get, despite having much smaller populations. Those principles work for healthcare provision as [DAVID HANSON in the Chair] well. I believe there are significant additional costs to providing services on the Isle of Wight. As I have said, Healthcare on English Islands we have a population of 143,000. That is half the size of a population that would usually have a district general 9.30 am hospital, so we are very grateful to have such a hospital and its great staff. However, because our helicopters do Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): I beg to move, not fly 24 hours a day and sometimes the ferries do not That this House has considered the provision of healthcare on go at night, the Island needs a maternity unit. Women English islands. cannot give birth in a helicopter. We need paediatrics It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, and we need A&E. Our funding is naturally and obviously Mr Hanson. I thank the Speaker’s Office for granting skewed by our environment, and because of that there this debate and the Minister for coming to respond to it. is an argument that we are unable to properly fund I will outline three arguments. First, I will explain some of the other services we need. why I believe Isle of Wight health services remain An additional problem is that if the trust has a underfunded compared with the mainland. My trust full-time consultant on its books and pays them for believes that that underfunding ranges from £5 million their expertise while, in effect, using them only three to £8 million just for acute services. Secondly, I will ask days a week, or if the maternity consultant is not being why the Isle of Wight is the only UK island, separated used to his full capacity because, although we do need a by sea, without NHS-subsidised travel. I believe that is maternity unit, ours is not as active as that of the deeply unfair to my constituents. Thirdly, I will suggest average district general hospital, those consultants are ways in which we can help both the Department of not getting the required hours on their ticket, to put it in Health and Social Care to deliver better health and layman’s terms. That causes diseconomies of scale. One social care on the Island through the creation of a single solution is to work much more closely with Southampton public services authority for local government and health, and Portsmouth. That is critical to our future, and it is and the Island to become a national leader, as it has going to happen. done in the past, in improving Government services by Our costs are also exacerbated by the demographic combining them. profile of Isle of Wight residents. We have a lot of By way of background, I start by paying tribute to young people, as the Isle of Wight festival proved, but it the Island’s NHS staff, who do a wonderful job delivering is also the case that 24% of our population are aged NHS healthcare provision. We greatly value their over 65, and that percentage will increase. As the Minister professionalism and dedication. I also acknowledge the and I discussed before the debate, there is an argument work of the Island’s NHS leadership in the clinical that NHS funding for those over 80 is not generous commissioning group and the trust, and the work of enough, because of the more focused health requirements Maggie Oldham and Vaughan Thomas specifically.Along of people of those advanced ages. Given that a fair with their wider teams, they do a challenging job in chunk of our population are over 80, we have significant difficult circumstances, and I am hugely grateful for pressures. More than 2,700 residents are living with their work and that of everybody in the health services, dementia, which is double the national average per including medics and ambulance staff, and our public constituency. services. We are experiencing a growing financial challenge. I have called this debate both as Member for the Isle Our CCG is £19 million above its target funding. The of Wight and as chairman of the all-party parliamentary Island overall receives £233 million to fund its healthcare group for UK islands. The purpose of the APPG is to services. The CCG and the trust are seeking to make promote the needs of island communities within Great £19.1 million savings this year, which will still leave cost Britain and Northern Ireland and to advocate for their pressures. The rise in our funding has been marginal economic and social wellbeing, the provision of high-quality, compared with that in trusts and CCGs elsewhere in the accessible public services, and affordable transport UK. Those very small rises in funding are now having a arrangements, which are particularly pertinent to the very negative effect, and I would appreciate the Minister Island I have the privilege of representing. The issues I looking closely at that. am raising today focus directly on those matters. Financial modelling undertaken as part of the acute Today’s subject follows earlier debates that I or the services redesign shows that even if services are reconfigured APPG have called on the economies and public services to the maximum extent, there will still be a gap between of UK islands. Due to devolution, this debate is largely the costs of funding services for the Island population focused on English islands, meaning primarily the Isle and the amount of money its NHS receives. Our trust of Wight, whose population is approximately 140,000, and believes that the cost, even under our most ambitious the much smaller Isles of Scilly, which I believe have a plans, is between £5.3 million and £8 million. That is population of about 1,500. just for the delivery of acute services, if I understand As I have previously raised, there are additional costs correctly. associated with providing public services in island My first suggestion to the Minister is that he accept communities. The University of Portsmouth has issued that there are additional costs associated with providing a peer-reviewed report showing that the extra costs of those services on the Island. This is not a case of special 363WH Healthcare on English Islands27 JUNE 2018 Healthcare on English Islands 364WH

[Mr Bob Seely] I will not dwell on arrangements for Scottish islands, because they are part of a wider mechanism and their pleading; it is merely an acceptance that the Island’s arrangements are devolved. healthcare structure has exceptional circumstances by The National Health Service (Travel Expenses and dint of being separated from the mainland. The Minister Remission of Charges) Regulations 2003 set out that could build us a fixed link, at a cost of about £3 billion, any resident of the Isles of Scilly not entitled to payment or we can argue about the extra millions needed to in full of NHS travel expenses in accordance with properly fund the NHS. low-income criteria will pay a maximum of £5 for their I strongly welcome the Secretary of State’s recent travel costs. A document from the Cornish CCG, NHS announcement of a new long-term funding plan for the Kernow, also sets out that residents of the Isles of Scilly NHS, which is a clear sign of our party’s commitment have to pay only £5 towards the cost of NHS-funded to ensuring that the NHS continues its world-class patient transport to the mainland. Furthermore, if it is provision—but I want to ensure that some of that deemed necessary that the patient needs an escort, a funding comes my way. I would be grateful if the further maximum payment of £5 will be applicable. Minister would continue that conversation and meet I have talked about the matter with my hon. Friend our Island NHS leadership, so that he and his officials the Member for St Ives (Derek Thomas), who represents can understand the extra costs in detail. the Isles of Scilly. I am delighted that residents of the Isles of Scilly benefit from such an arrangement, but I also want to propose a way that we on the Island why is it not available to my constituents as well? can work more effectively with the integration of public Although some on the Isle of Wight meet the narrow services. I hope that idea will be attractive to the Minister definition of being on a low income and would benefit and his officials. As I have said, we are not looking for from having such costs met, many other residents have special treatment, but we are looking for fairer funding. toregularlyaccesshealthcaretreatmentonthemainland—such I place emphasis on both provision and access because as those with prostate cancer, who may need 40 trips we want to provide as many services as possible on the —and face difficulty in affording the associated and oft Island, but we also need access to the mainland for repeated costs. I believe it is inequitable and unfair for when some of our Islanders need to go to Southampton one set of English islands to enjoy such a benefit when or Portsmouth for specialist services such as radiotherapy. others do not. It is yet another example of the Isle of There will be a small decrease in the number of visits to Wight’s not being treated fairly. the mainland, but a small rise in the number of more specialised healthcare appointments there. The arrangements for Isle of Wight residents travelling to the mainland for operations and medical appointments As the Minister may know, the NHS trust has laid are much less generous, and exist only due to the out a series of options for the future of healthcare on co-operation of our three cross-Solent operators. Red the Isle of Wight. I seek Government support for its Funnel offers a special return ferry fare; Wightlink more ambitious aim of taking back more bread-and-butter offers a discount for both vehicle and foot passengers acute services to the Island, thereby requiring fewer plus a patient escort; and Hovertravel offers a 20% trips to the mainland, rather than the current option of discount on day returns. I am grateful to those operators slightly fewer services on the Island and slightly more for putting those arrangements in place, and to the on the mainland. We will discuss that at length. NHS on the Isle of Wight for negotiating them, but the The local care finance system has undertaken a detailed reality is that even with such discounts, the cost of trips assessment of how to strike the appropriate balance to access healthcare on the mainland can place a great between providing services within the shores of the financial burden on patients, which is at odds with the Island and enabling access. However, there are increased NHS’s founding principle of being free at the point of patient safety risks associated with any shift of more delivery. services to the mainland, particularly for patients who I therefore ask the Minister to amend the 2003 regulations may be frail and in need of swift access to services. to extend that statutory requirement to the Isle of Wight, as well as the Isles of Scilly. That would be a My constituents have made it clear, through a range significant step forward and would have a transformational of public engagement exercises, that they wish to see the effect on the lives of many of my constituents who go to maximum retention of services on the Island, and they the mainland for treatment. Around 32,000 return visits join me in asking the Government to ensure that that is are undertaken a year. Under option 3, that would be recognised in any future funding. As recently as two about 30,000, while under option 4 it would be about weeks ago, the Isle of Wight County Press and Isle of 27,000 or 28,000. We are talking about numbers in the Wight Radio hosted a question time event with low tens of thousands, and funding those visits would representatives of the Isle of Wight NHS at which the require relatively small amounts of money. Island-mainland split in services was debated. My constituents’views were clear: where possible, the retention However, as those visits are in the tens of thousands, of services on the Island should be a priority. I therefore and because our CCG is struggling for money, I ask urge the Minister to carefully examine the funding that any such arrangements do not have a budgetary arrangements in place for healthcare, to ensure that impact, either on Cornwall’s or the Isle of Wight’s those needs are met. CCGs, and that the cost of funding the discount comes directly out of the NHS budget. That would be recognition I also ask that we examine the issue of patient travel that English islands should be treated similarly to Scottish and how visits to the mainland from the Island are islands, and of the cost of going to the mainland from funded. As I have said, the Isle of Wight is the only UK the Isles of Scilly or the Isle of Wight. Under this plan, island with no subsidised ferry travel to support local patients and their escorts would pay no more than £5 to residents in accessing specialised services on the mainland. travel to the mainland for treatment. I believe that to be 365WH Healthcare on English Islands27 JUNE 2018 Healthcare on English Islands 366WH a fair and reasonable gesture for the Government to local care board, and it is already bringing the services make, and I ask for that change to be brought forward, together as part of our One Public Service vision for the along with the changes to the 2003 regulations to allow Island, but it is still not combined structurally and in the Isle of Wight to benefit from statutory obligations. terms of leadership and governance. There is also the issue of travel for families. Staying At the moment, the Government provide one pot of overnight in a mainland hospital brings about financial money to local government on the Island, another to pressures for my constituents. I appreciate that the 2003 fund the Isle of Wight NHS, and another to the CCG. regulations do not provide for support in these cases, Does it have to be that rigid? Can we aspire to a but if the Minister was generous enough to consider situation in which one combined funding pot is made those changes, and to find the small amount of money available for public service provision on the Island, to fund directly the £5 fare for people seeking treatment, thereby increasing the requirement for deeper and more my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives and I could go meaningful integration? Such circumstances may require back to the ferry companies serving our respective combining the governance and leadership of public islands and see if they would be generous enough to services. It is important to explore that, and there are make similar provision for patients’ visitors. Someone questions about the role of experts, certainly in healthcare from Ventnor, Cowes or Ryde who was going to hospital and adult social care provision. in Southampton on the mainland would pay £5 to get to I ask the Minister to explore, with his ministerial the hospital, but their families often pay full whack on colleagues, whether there is an appetite for creating a the ferries. That is not cheap. If we changed those unique public authority on the Isle of Wight that combines arrangements, we could talk to the ferry companies traditional local government functions with those of about providing properly recognised and organised support NHS trusts, the CCG, adult social care, mental health to families visiting their loved ones in hospital. That services and so on. If such a fully combined and integrated would be a generous gesture to the Isles of Scilly and approach can work anywhere, it should work on the the Isle of Wight. Island. Such a step would be a natural progression from I am grateful to the Minister for listening, and I will the integrated way in which we are trying to work; we raise one other issue. To recap, the Isle of Wight is not are trying to overcome those siloed, bureaucratic, financial properly funded, and my folks—my constituents—are hurdles. Clearly, if we achieved that, we would ensure hard done by when traveling to the mainland. Do not that the input of healthcare professionals was still very get me wrong: we love being an island, but we seek fair much at the forefront of decision making. I urge the funding to mitigate the effect of the Solent, which is Minister to work with us as closely as possible on that, often overlooked by the Government. However, I am because that could be a valuable exercise that could be here not just to ask, but to offer. We on the Island are repeated elsewhere, perhaps in more isolated communities, already committed to integrating health and social care and in places where the combination of healthcare and as much as possible, and I believe that Islanders would public service could achieve real public good and address be delighted, with Government support, to lead the way public need. in delivering best practice in the integration of council, I will not talk for much longer; I will just make a health and adult social care services. couple of other points briefly. I am grateful to you, For example, we have the “My Life a Full Life” Mr Hanson, for allowing me to speak at length. programme, which is a collaboration between the Isle of I want to talk about digital solutions. Again, we are Wight CCG, the NHS trust and the Isle of Wight not the only part of Britain that is isolated, but clearly Council. The programme works in partnership with the Solent is a boundary and border for us. I find the local people, voluntary organisations and the private situation slightly ridiculous. Yes, if people need to go to sector to deliver a more co-ordinated approach to the Southampton for an operation, that is great, but do delivery of health and social care for older people and they need to go there for every pre-op appointment? Do people with long-term conditions on the Island. they need to go to Southampton or Portsmouth for My aim is to keep as many young people on the every post-op appointment? We were talking about this Island as possible, to build an economy for them, and to earlier. We need to find the greatest centres of expertise get a university and improve our education system. in Britain and be able to buy in those services. Perhaps However, at the same time, it is critical that we become a people can have their appointment in Southampton, leader in ensuring quality of life in later life. We are Reading, London or Portsmouth, but can have their naturally drawn towards integrating our services, because pre-op using digital technology—telemedicine. We need we are a small island, so we have the potential to be a to be much more efficient in how we use that. national leader in this. “My Life a Full Life” is a great Again, we are not the only isolated part of Britain. idea, but it arguably has not reached the point that it However, I am offering the Island to NHS England as a should, because we still have siloed organisations. There pioneer in not only integrated services, but how we use are bureaucratic hurdles to overcome in combining the advances in telemedicine and all those other wonderful leadership of those organisations, but ensuring their things. Also relevant is data collection. The NHS does full integration could save a considerable amount of not use data terribly well, if I understand correctly. In money on appointments, which could then be put back relation to data for preventive medicine, we are small into frontline services. enough to be manageable. Social scientists love us because I would like to acknowledge the work of all those we are geographically isolated; we are clearly, in a very involved on the Island in delivering some really good geographically obvious way,measurable. And for relatively programmes that we have for integration, but particularly small amounts of money, a great deal of learning could Councillors David Stewart and Clare Mosdell, along be done on the use of data in relation to preventive with professional officers such as Dr Carol Tozer, the medicine, telemedicine and integration—the combining director of adult social care. They have established a of health and adult social care. 367WH Healthcare on English Islands27 JUNE 2018 Healthcare on English Islands 368WH

[Mr Bob Seely] exception of the Isle of Wight, all our islands are served by NHS organisations based on the mainland. For As well as saying, “Please look at our funding”, those with road access, ambulances from the mainland because we have funding problems on the Island, we can reach patients without undue difficulty. However, have special needs that have never, ever been recognised. those without access have had to develop local approaches I find the situation shocking, frankly. The Government, to providing support. Much of that support comes with the best will in the world, try to be fair. They fund from volunteer community first responders, who reach the Scottish islands via the Scottish Government; they patients before an ambulance can arrive to provide first give them extra money. Anglesey has a bridge; the Scilly aid. Isles have a small population anyway. However, the On behalf of the Opposition, I pay tribute to all Government permanently function without taking into those who give their time to such services. They provide account my constituency. I know that they do not mean a vital lifeline in their communities. We do not speak to do that, but our circumstances are unique, in that we enough about the role that volunteers play in our health are isolated by water, and that has never been recognised. service. I have seen for myself during a stint at my local When isolation factors are looked at, we never seem to ambulance station how volunteer responders can play qualify. an important role in assisting paid professionals. On We are not properly funded, but we would like to be, that occasion, it was in a rural location, but the principles and I would like the Government to look seriously at about access and timely intervention also apply there. the struggle that some Islanders face in paying for the I understand that last year a volunteer first responder travel to the mainland when they go for treatment. I am group was launched on Holy Island, which as we all offering the Government suggestions of ways in which know is inaccessible at high tide. Supported by the the Island could be used as a test case, as a national North East Ambulance Service, the group plays an leader, to integrate services better, to use data better and extremely valuable role. There are similar groups across to combine all these functions, using telemedicine, to many of our islands. create a world-class service on the Island. That could be In the time that I have served on the Front Bench, I used not only to deliver great healthcare to my residents, have been privileged to visit several air ambulance services. but as a national role model for others. They, too, play an extremely valuable role in providing urgent care in isolated areas. Again, much is down to 9.55 am efforts by volunteers and to fundraising, as they are of course charities. There was a reception at Parliament Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): It yesterday for the various regional air ambulances, and I is, as always, a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, was very pleased to see a great many parliamentarians Mr Hanson. I congratulate the hon. Member for Isle of attend to show their support. It is concerning to consider Wight (Mr Seely) on securing the debate and on his very what the position would be for our island communities knowledgeable presentation of his constituents’ concerns if those volunteer organisations were not involved. and views. It is clear that health services on the Isle of Wight face challenges that, as he eloquently set out, are Aside from the Isle of Wight, the Isles of Scilly are unique and require a tailored approach. However, there our most populous islands that can be accessed only by are similarities between the experiences that he reported air or sea. Despite five of those islands being inhabited, and people’s experiences with health services throughout there is just one minor injuries unit, at St Mary’s, so the England. island is hugely reliant on the five ambulance all-terrain vehicles that serve the island. Many non-emergency When we think of the geography of England, there procedures have to take place on the mainland because can be too little appreciation of the fact that England of the need to access specialised treatment for conditions. covers just five eighths of Great Britain, and includes The cost of accessing that treatment is usually met by more than 100 islands. Those islands are an intrinsic the patient, when they are not in receipt of qualifying part of our nation, as you will know, Mr Hanson. Not benefits. That can cause problems for a number of too far from both our constituencies is Hilbre Island, individuals. which, although it has no resident population, is an As the hon. Member for Isle of Wight said, for those important part of our area’s history and culture. Like who live on the Isles of Scilly, a £5 concessionary fare Hilbre, the vast majority of islands do not have a on the Skybus to the mainland is available, but that permanent population. Most of those that do are connected covers the cost of the journey only from St Mary’s to to the mainland by road—examples are Canvey Island Land’s End; there is the additional cost of the remainder in Essex and Portsea Island in Hampshire—and, as a of the journey. However, that is still a better situation result, their healthcare services are very integrated with than the hon. Gentleman’s constituents enjoy—or not, those of the surrounding areas. as the case may be. It was perfectly reasonable for him As we have heard, however, there are islands, including to raise that anomaly,which he described as an inequitable the Isle of Wight, the Isles of Scilly and Holy Island, situation. He was also right to raise the issue of families that are accessible only by sea and air, and they do not travelling to the mainland. It is important that those benefit from such ease of access. That poses serious faced with an extended stay in hospital have the support challenges, particularly for the smaller islands, especially of family and friends. in emergencies, which of course cannot be planned for. The hon. Member for Isle of Wight set out three Before discussing the points made by the hon. Gentleman main arguments to show that his constituents are in a about the Isle of Wight, I will touch on the situation on different position. He believes that the Isle of Wight is some of the other islands in England. Many do not underfunded generally when it comes to health services. have their own medical facilities providing emergency He made the point that it is the only English island care, because of their smaller populations. With the separated from the mainland by sea that is without any 369WH Healthcare on English Islands27 JUNE 2018 Healthcare on English Islands 370WH kind of subsidy for patient travel. He also expressed a The Isle of Wight NHS Trust was again rated inadequate desire to integrate public services, particularly health by the Care Quality Commission as recently as April, and and social care. He raised a point about the extra cost of it remains in special measures. No fewer than 233 incidents providing public services on the Island, because of were reported in which the NHS was found to be failing reduced capacity; that was no surprise to hon. Members. to meet its obligations to residents of the Island. I He said that services such as A&E and maternity are would be grateful if the Minister said what he is doing needed on the Island, because it is not possible to travel to improve the trust’s performance. The report recognised to the mainland in every emergency. He set out very well that there were some improvements, although those can how that sometimes creates diseconomies of scale, and never come quickly enough. problems that require more working with mainland Finally, while many of the challenges facing our providers. health service on the islands are unique, there are also The hon. Gentleman made comparisons with the many similarities in the challenges we face. One of those funding increases for other CCGs in recent years. He similarities is in the financial pressures trusts are facing expressed a desire for his constituency to become a as a result of the longest and most sustained period of national leader in integrating local services. He will be financial constraint the NHS has ever faced. As a result aware that up and down the country there are a great of that, performance has deteriorated. Take the example many plans at various stages of development. It is clear of the four-hour A&E target, which the Secretary of that many communities are heading in the direction of State described as being critical for safe care. In 2010-11, greater integration between health and social care. On 99% of patients were seen within four hours on the Isle that point, I would be grateful if the Minister could of Wight, whereas today that figure has fallen to 88%. indicate in his response whether he believes there is any Some 22% of Isle of Wight cancer patients wait more need for legislation to bolster this development, particularly than two months for treatment, which, again, represents in terms of safeguards around governance and standards. a significant deterioration. That is not uncommon within Earlier this year, the Labour party conducted a coastal other parts of the NHS. communities consultation, which extended to the islands. The financial challenges faced by the Isle of Wight The issues we have discussed this morning are exactly NHS Trust are deeply concerning, as the hon. Member the kind of things that a future Labour Government for Isle of Wight set out, and I believe that they can be would be keen to look at. We have heard that the Isle of directly traced to years of austerity. As we have heard, Wight is a unique island in our nation, with such a large the trust and the CCG will end the year in a significant population being dependent on ferries to get to the deficit. The trust is having to take out more than mainland. As the hon. Member for Isle of Wight set £1.5 million in loans each month, which will have to be out, the Island’s unique status has led to a unique repaid. We have heard reference to the additional funding response, in terms of the configuration of health services. announcements made by the Prime Minister last week. The Isle of Wight NHS Trust is the only integrated Weshould acknowledge that those funding announcements, acute, community,mental health and ambulance healthcare if they are delivered on, will represent nothing more provider in England. The hon. Gentleman wants to than a standstill position, rather than an improvement increase integration further. As we also heard, in addition on the current situation. It has also been confirmed that to the geographical challenges, there are demographic social care, capital spending and public health are excluded issues on the Isle of Wight. Its proportion of residents from that announcement. aged 80-plus is above the national average. That has an additional impact on health and social care costs. The In conclusion, I thank the hon. Member for Isle of proportion of patients with dementia is double the Wight for the impressive way he set out the issues facing national average. his constituents, and the unique challenges that face those In response to some of the unique challenges the on the Isle of Wight and our other islands. Giving the Island is facing, a service reconfiguration is being planned NHS the funding that it needs is at the core of all that. through the Hampshire and Isle of Wight sustainability and transformation partnership. That involves 89% of 10.8 am current hospital-based care remaining on the Island, with 11% of more complex and specialist treatments The Minister for Health (Stephen Barclay): It is a being provided on the mainland. It is clear that the hon. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson. Gentleman would like as many of those treatments as I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of possible to be dealt with directly on the Island, and for Wight (Mr Seely) for raising the issue in the way that he his constituents not to have to travel to the mainland to has. He has used Westminster Hall exactly as it should access them. I appreciate that that will not always be be used—to bring the concerns of his constituents front achievable, but I seek the Minister’s assurances that he and centre before the House. He set out not only the will consider the measures that can be put in place to challenges faced, but the ways forward and a number of support those patients who will have to travel, and will solutions for different issues. In short, he raised issues often be in a vulnerable condition as a result of that. of funding that relate to population and geography, Will he confirm that the changes proposed are based on travel, the potential for further integration, and also a clinical, rather than financial, priorities? Will he also way forward involving digital and data. I will address confirm that proposals will not lead to a reduction in each of those in turn. the overall number of beds on the Isle of Wight? The This is also a timely debate, as the shadow Minister STP document states: mentioned, following the Prime Minister’s announcement “There would be no change in capacity at St Mary’s until at the Royal Free Hospital last week of a significant actual changes in activity are put in place”. funding boost to the NHS. Alongside that, NHS leaders That suggests that there may be some reduction in are drafting a long-term, 10-year plan on services, which bed numbers. will look at many of the issues he cited in his speech. 371WH Healthcare on English Islands27 JUNE 2018 Healthcare on English Islands 372WH

[Stephen Barclay] where academics and researchers could investigate how we can live better with dementia in this country. We As we start that journey with NHS leaders, bringing the have double the national average of people with dementia, issues of the Isle of Wight front and centre is timely and so it would be a natural fit for us. helpful. I would segment the funding formula issue into two: Stephen Barclay: I am keen to work with my hon. the challenges that the Island has in common with other Friend on that, because the Government have prioritised parts of the country, such as those posed by the over-80s their research and development budget, as I know from and by the significant number of constituents with my time at the Treasury. A significant investment has dementia, and those that are unique to it. Indeed, few also been made in health R&D. The NHS has an hon. Members feel that their constituents’ circumstances opportunity to combine its patient data with our world- do not merit being higher up the funding formula than leading universities and R&D to attract researchers, they currently sit. It is valid to raise those issues, and drive forward the most innovative approach on healthcare NHS England will look at them on the advice of the and translate that cutting-edge research into day-to-day Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation, which care. That can be a frustration for our constituents; it is advises on the funding formula. Those decisions are fine to have the research, but we need to roll it out to common to other areas, but they need to be made in scale in a way that is meaningful for patients. The respect of the Island. If my hon. Friend wishes, I am challenge of the Island’sgeographyis also a huge advantage happy to facilitate a meeting with NHS England so the to it. I do not know what percentage of its patients are funding pressures pertaining to the demography of the taking part in research, but that may be an area for him Island can be raised. He will recognise that the setting to explore and for the Department to work with him on. of the funding formula is an independent process. My hon. Friend also raised the potential of digital. There are specific issues about the geography that my He will be aware that the Secretary of State has asked hon. Friend raised very well, not least about maternity Dr Eric Topol, one of the world leaders on the use of services and paediatrics. The Island needs to supply digital in healthcare, to undertake a report for the those services and that will have an impact on its Department. My hon. Friend is right that rather than a funding. I am happy to look at those issues. Integration patient having to be physically present in all instances, is one way that headroom will be facilitated to meet as was traditionally the case, there is scope to use digital those challenges. As he said, the Island was a vanguard much more for them to see a consultant online and for site that has received £8.4 million of extra funding since information to be sent digitally. I recognise that if the 2015 to facilitate the transformation of services. That clinical commissioning group is in deficit, finding the fundingrecognisedsomeof theIsland’sspecificgeographical headroom to invest in that technology becomes a trade-off challenges. and a challenge, but that is one of the opportunities Although geography can be, and is in certain areas, a that will be opened up by the Prime Minister’s investment disadvantage and a driver of cost, it is also a driver of in the NHS and it is an area that the 10-year forward opportunity, as my hon. Friend set out. The Island has view will specifically examine. a strong sense of place and identity, and there are In terms of timing, the Island has a chance to look at strong personal links between key decision makers and how it can become a leader, what has been done with stakeholders. As the shadow Minister rightly said, the digital enablers and early adopters in the NHS, and in move towards greater integration between health and which areas it can lead on in technology. I will come on social care—as is reflected in the name of the to the challenges of travel, but reducing the need for Department—is also an opportunity to drive integration journeys is a more sustainable solution than seeking to between the council and health services. My hon. Friend subsidise them. Our starting point should be how we alluded to the bureaucratic obstacles to that, and I am can use technology to reduce the need for as many happy to work with him to overcome them. As patients journeys, rather than how we can subsidise more journeys. present with multiple conditions and as we move away That offers significant scope. from silos of care to a more holistic approach to patients On travel, I heard my hon. Friend’s remarks about and their wellbeing, the Island offers a huge opportunity the cost and its wider impact on families. There is a for greater integration. correlation with a separate debate we have had about On my hon. Friend’s point about data, I had an car parking charges. Clearly, there are specific challenges interesting meeting yesterday with the chief executive of related to travel, but as he also set out, it is quite the Christie in Manchester,which is one of our outstanding complex, because there are already arrangements with trusts. I was struck by the fact that 19% of its patients the ferry companies and national schemes for subsidies take part in medical research programmes. The chief and assistance that can be given to people who are executive set out how that is hugely beneficial to the financially challenged. It is a question of looking at trust and to the patients, who get access to cutting-edge how we can fit in with the existing schemes and what drugs and the latest thinking. He has also been able to agreements can be reached with the companies concerned. attract some of the world-leading figures in research I am happy to meet him to pick up on that specific point because he has a population that researchers can work to better understand our current approach and what for, which is very attractive to them. That is a real can be done, given the challenges. Again, the challenge win-win, and the demographics of the Island offer an of distance is not unique to the Island, but as he opportunity in that regard. mentioned, there are certain features of travel to the Isle of Wight and the Scilly Isles that pose challenges. Mr Seely: One point that I did not make was that As my hon. Friend will be aware, the NHS healthcare when it comes to looking at dementia, the Island would travel cost scheme provides financial help for travel be very open to becoming a national leader or a place costs for patients on low incomes who are referred. 373WH Healthcare on English Islands 27 JUNE 2018 374WH

The scheme is part of the NHS’s low-income scheme, Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth Games: under which people are also entitled to free prescriptions Shooting and glasses. Under the scheme, the full cost of transport can be reimbursed by the NHS to eligible patients. Schemes are in place, but I hear the wider points that he 11 am has raised and I am happy to discuss them with him. Mr Alister Jack (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con): I In short, my hon. Friend has set out that the Isle of beg to move, Wight is ideally placed to be at the vanguard of the That this House has considered the removal of shooting sports NHS’s approach as we move forward with the 10-year from Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth Games. forward view, in embracing digital and integration and It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, in looking at how to deliver place-based commissioning Mr Hanson. I would like to push forward with the most effectively. There are some specific challenges with efforts started by the hon. Member for Strangford regard to its population and its geography in terms of (Jim Shannon)—I am pleased to see him present—to travel. The interplay of those two things is another make the case for the reinstatement of shooting sports challenge in terms of efficiencies of scale and the services at the 2022 Commonwealth games in Birmingham. I that are considered essential on the Island, which may have picked up many of the points raised during his be dealt with at a larger-population level elsewhere. Adjournment debate, and I will expand on them in the wake of the home nations’ phenomenal performance at In the NHS more widely,as we move to a hub-and-spoke the Gold Coast Commonwealth games this year. model and to more flexible population sizes, and as we look at place-based commissioning, the Isle of Wight The decision not to include shooting in the 2022 has huge potential to be at the forefront, as my hon. Commonwealth games in Birmingham has left many in Friend has set out. I am very happy to follow up this the UK, particularly in my constituency, confused and debate by meeting my hon. Friend, and to facilitate a unhappy. The matter is of particular importance to a discussion between him and NHS England, to ensure constituent of mine, David McMath, a 21-year-old that we deliver what he has campaigned passionately young man who recently won gold in the men’s double for—the best healthcare for residents of the Island—and trap competition at the games this year. He set a games that the significant investment set out by the Prime record with a total of 74—four ahead of his nearest Minister is maximised for his constituents. rival, Tim Kneale from the Isle of Man, who took silver. The shadow Minister quite reasonably asked whether we were open to changes to the legislation. As he will be Without a doubt, shooting is a source of extreme aware, the Prime Minister said to the NHS leadership in national pride for the home nations of the United her remarks at the Royal Free Hospital that we are open Kingdom, as it is one of our strongest sports. In fact, we to such suggestions if NHS leaders feel that changes are are the second strongest group in shooting events and necessary. As part of the workings of the long-term managed to collect 38% of the medals on offer this year. plan, those leaders will need to look at what they need, Not adding shooting to the 2022 games has taken away and whether much of the integration—I know that the 57 medal opportunities. Every one of the home nations Mayor of Manchester supports the integration that is and Channel Islands participated in the shooting events, taking place in Manchester—can be done under existing which proves the sport’s popularity. In fact, it was the legislation, or whether changes are needed, and if so, only sport for which the Isle of Man won a medal this what those are. That will be part of the discussions with year. Given that England came second in the medals Simon Stevens and others in the weeks and months table for the past three games, it seems odd and ahead. counterproductive that shooting has been removed from the programme. David Hanson (in the Chair): The hon. Member for The Birmingham organisers cited venue issues as the Isle of Wight has the opportunity to make any concluding reason not to include shooting in 2022, stating that the comments, should he so wish. only suitable venue would be Bisley, which, at 130 miles from Birmingham, is too far away. 10.20 am Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): I am grateful to Mr Seely: Only to thank you for your chairmanship, my hon. Friend for allowing me to intervene so early in Mr Hanson, and the Minister, the shadow Minister, his speech. The notion that Bisley is too far away is and the officials for attending. Thank you so much. simply nonsensical. It was upgraded for the Commonwealth games a number of years ago and is a perfect, ready-made Question put and agreed to. and ready-prepared venue for these events. In addition Resolved, to the fact that we have lots of medal opportunities in That this House has considered the provision of healthcare on shooting, it is a totally egalitarian sport. People with English islands. disabilities, and people of different genders and abilities can compete on the same basis; there is no better sport 10.21 am to demonstrate that. Sitting suspended. Mr Jack: My hon. Friend makes a number of excellent points and he will be pleased to know that I will cover them all. As I have said, the organisers said that Bisley, at 130 miles from Birmingham, is too far away. They also claimed that it would be too expensive to renovate Bisley. That argument has little merit when we consider that they decided to use the London velodrome track for cycling, which is 135 miles away. 375WH Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth 27 JUNE 2018 Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth 376WH Games: Shooting Games: Shooting [Mr Jack] two medallists, a man and a woman, aged 21, and two medallists, also a man and a woman, over the age As my hon. Friend has said, Bisley shooting ground of 50. There was even a competitor from Canada who was deemed adequate for the Commonwealth games was in his 80s. held in Manchester in 2002. Manchester is significantly In the spirit of inclusivity, it is worth mentioning further north than Birmingham, at a total of 215 miles that, for many of the small Commonwealth nations, from Bisley. such as Cyprus, Malta, the Falkland Islands, Niue, Norfolk Island and Papa New Guinea, shooting is a Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the dominant sport. Without shooting, some of those nations hon. Gentleman on securing this debate on a topic that would not be able to send teams to the games at all. we are all interested in. The fact that more of those who Norfolk Island only sent shooters and bowlers to the participated in the Adjournment debate are not here 2018 Gold Cost games, and the Turks and Caicos does not mean it is any less of a concern today. Does he Islands only sent teams for shooting and athletics. To agree that the removal of shooting sports from the remove shooting from the games would possibly be to Birmingham games appears to have more to do with deny those small nations access to the competition misconceptions about the sport than with a lack of altogether. facilities? Will he join me in sincerely urging the Minister This debate has taken on an international flavour, as to use her influence—I know she is keen to do so—to I have been contacted by the Crown Prince of Patiala, incorporate this very popular and successful sport into India, His Highness Raninder Singh, who is also president the schedule before it is too late? of the National Rifle Association of India. He stresses how important it is for his country to be involved. I have Mr Jack: The hon. Gentleman makes very good also had support from Lord Bilimoria, who is in Kenya points and I agree with him. and has similar strong feelings. Manchester used Bisley in 2002, although it is 215 miles Let me also highlight the impact that this decision from the shooting ground. I therefore argue that it can would have on India’s medal standing. India is the be done and that Bisley can provide the required facilities. largest member state, and shooting sports contributed I concede that Bisley is not in tip-top condition, but the to 24% of the medals she won at the Gold Coast venue remains fully operational and would require only Commonwealth games. At the previous games in Glasgow, light modernisation to bring it up to scratch. With 23% of her medals came from shooting sports. Not to 95% of the competition venues already in place, minor include shooting sports in Birmingham will deny India refurbishment of the Bisley shooting ground would not the ability to maximise and showcase her shooting add an unfeasible workload to the games organisers. athletes’ skills, which have enabled them to secure the No. 1 position in shooting in the past two games. A second solution is to build a new site alongside the new national shooting centre for which UK Sport and Birmingham was only recently announced as the host British Shooting are currently securing funding and of the 2022 games. Although I am obviously pleased for planning permission. If the organisers of the Birmingham the city, it should be noted that the original host, games were to link funding to the national governing Durban, had confirmed that shooting would be on the body, it would be a fantastic opportunity to ensure that agenda. The sudden removal of the sport will deprive the games leave a lasting legacy. the home nations not only of the chance to excel on the medal table but of the opportunity to test their skills Shooting is currently on a list of optional sports, on an international stage before the Olympic games in from which the host city must choose seven. The organisers 2024. of Birmingham 2022 have opted to include table tennis, for which England has only ever won 15 medals. That The support for the shooting competitions only increases pales in comparison with the 168 medals won for shooting. with each games. That is highlighted by 38 of 72 nations They have also opted for 3x3 basketball, which is a competing in the sport at this year’s Gold Coast games. novelty in the Commonwealth games. I think shooting Additionally, the Shooting Times recently launched a is a more important sport. petition to get shooting back on the agenda for 2022, and in just four months it has already been signed by Given that I have just presented a counter-argument more than 60,000 people. To include shooting sports in and an alternative option to the venue issue cited by the 2022 will have the threefold effect of boosting the home Birmingham organisers, I see no logical reason why nations’ performances in the medal table, offering a England would want to cheat herself of a significant more diverse and inclusive competition, and creating number of medals by removing shooting from the agenda. a forum for the numerous shooting athletes who use the Shooting has been on the Commonwealth games agenda Commonwealth games as a stepping stone to the Olympics. at every games bar 1970. It was originally introduced in Therefore, for the reasons I have outlined, I urge the 1966 and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest organisers of the Birmingham Commonwealth games (Mark Garnier) has said, it is one of the most diverse and to reconsider their decision and to reinstate shooting on inclusive sports on offer. Two of the 13 shooting events the agenda. —the fullbore rifle competitions—are open to men and women. They are the only competitions at the 11.10 am Commonwealth games in which men and women compete equally on an open field. The sport gets people of all The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, backgrounds out and competing. Competitors do not Culture, Media and Sport (Tracey Crouch): As always, it have to be incredibly fit to be active in the sport, which is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson. means that people can compete in it for longer. At I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and this year’s games on the Gold Cost, Scotland had Galloway (Mr Jack) for leading today’s debate, which 377WH Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth 27 JUNE 2018 Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth 378WH Games: Shooting Games: Shooting follows the recent Adjournment debate tabled by the Shooting is one of the top five most popular sports hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I am amongparticipatingCommonwealthnationsandterritories. grateful to the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark At Glasgow 2014, more than 350 athletes represented Garnier) for his intervention. He contributed to the 39 nations and territories. At Gold Coast 2018, 281 athletes Adjournment debate, and he made a powerful point from 38 nations and territories took part in the shooting about the egalitarian nature of the sport. disciplines. I am conscious of my hon. Friend’s point This is clearly a matter that invokes much passion that large Commonwealth countries such as India and is of personal interest to a number of Members participate in shooting, but so do very small nations, across the whole House and their constituents. I am who contribute a great deal. The list of nations and happy to confirm right at the outset that both the territories that participated in Glasgow and in Gold Secretary of State and I support the request for the Coast include Norfolk Island and Niue, which my hon. Birmingham games to include shooting, but I should Friend mentioned. I am trying to work out whether explain our limitations as Ministers of the Department they are the two smallest; Norfolk Island has a population for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, and the other of about 1,700 people, yet it had eight athletes competing challenges that need to be overcome. in the shooting discipline at the Gold Coast Commonwealth games. First, let us remind ourselves of the phenomenal success of shooting at the London 2012 Olympic and When selecting optional sports, the games partners Paralympic games, hosted at the Royal Artillery barracks. should take into account the delivery of a diverse sport The tears of joy of double trap gold medallist Peter programme that will appeal to spectators domestically Wilson were a lasting image of the emotion felt by and abroad; hosting a sport programme that features dedicated athletes at the top of their sport. His success gender equity and appropriate para-sport inclusion; was followed by incredible performances at the Gold sport operational staging costs; and the existence of Coast Commonwealth games by our home nation athletes. suitable, well-located venues. They returned from Australia with an impressive 21 medals Although I hear what my hon. Friend says about —22 including the medal won for the Isle of Man. The Bisley and the London velodrome being equidistant, by athletes included David McMath, who won gold in the the time the games take place, the Bisley venue will be double trap and, as has been mentioned, is a constituent nearly 20 years old. Advancements in the sport and the of my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and scale of the events in shooting dictate that the upgrade Galloway. I am sure that Members will join me in would incur significant costs. Satellite accommodation recognising and applauding the efforts of our athletes would also be required. I understand his point about on the international sporting stage. It is a testament to the geographical aspects—that is not necessarily the the efforts of these athletes, and to the wider high- argument in this case—but there is a cost incurred. He performance sporting framework in the UK, that British and the hon. Member for Strangford, who are passionate athletes continue to produce medal-winning performances about shooting, will, I am sure, appreciate that if we are that inspire us all. to host a shooting event, we must have the best venue, to attract the world’s best shooters. Being the next host city for the Commonwealth games will bring a huge number of positive opportunities to the city of Birmingham, the wider west midlands and Mr Jack: The Minister says that Bisley is 20 years the UK as a whole. They will showcase to the world the old; it has been 20 years since its last refurbishment, but best of Britain as a destination for international trade, it is much older than that. As a teenager, I shot at Bisley, provide new economic growth and social benefits and so I can assure the Minister it is a lot older. It is not a maximise legacy opportunities for the west midlands. significant cost to bring it up to standard. Could the Government have been working closely with their partners Minister speak to the games organisers, to put some Birmingham City Council, Commonwealth Games form of costing in place and to assess generally how England, West Midlands Combined Authority and the expensive it would be to go to Bisley? My understanding Commonwealth Games Federation to begin preparations. is that there is not much to do. The process to set up the board of the Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth games organising committee is Tracey Crouch: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s well under way. clarification, but it is not just about the cost; it could Hosting the games is a significant undertaking that, also be about the accommodation. We are looking at despite presenting enormous opportunities for Birmingham the issue and, as I said at the outset, the Secretary of and the UK, must be done within the requirements of State and I both support the inclusion of shooting, but the Commonwealth Games Federation and in a pragmatic as core partners in the delivery of the Commonwealth way. As custodians of public funds, we must recognise games, we must ensure we deliver a cost-effective games. that any changes to the sport programme agreed by These are not necessarily challenges that we cannot games partners will have a financial implication. It is overcome, but they are challenges. our duty to ensure that the event is delivered in a cost-effective way.As my hon. Friend and hon. Members Jim Shannon: Perhaps there is a glimmer of hope in who contributed to the Adjournment debate will be the Minister’s response. Bisley is a world-renowned aware, the host city is bound by regulations that prescribe championship venue for many events. The skeletal frame the delivery of 16 core sports. Contrary to what my is in place, but if some edges need to be sharpened—if hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway accommodation needs to be arranged and some other said, table tennis is a core sport, not an optional sport. small things need to be done—that is not impossible. It In addition, the host city is able to select a small number is an acceptable venue, and a wee bit more effort would of sports from the optional list, of which shooting make it conform to all requirements. Surely we should is one. do our best to make that happen. 379WH Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth 27 JUNE 2018 Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth 380WH Games: Shooting Games: Shooting Tracey Crouch: I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman More than 2 million people in the UK regularly participate or with my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and in the sports I just listed, and the home nations collected Galloway, but there are logistical and cost challenges. 37 medals from those events on the Gold Coast. They are not necessarily ones that we cannot overcome, I do, however, understand my hon. Friend’s concerns, and both Members are right to place their points on the and I sympathise with his position. Shooting’s popularity record, to ensure that anyone reading this debate, across the Commonwealth nations and territories, from particularly from the Commonwealth Games Federation, the largest nation to the smallest, is enormous, and the understands that there is a real desire to support everybody home nations have had a particularly strong track record in overcoming the challenges. at previous games. In recognition of that and of the value that shooting Mr Jack: I thank the Minister for her detailed response. brings to the games, the Secretary of State and I are The point about the accommodation could be a spurious exploring with games partners the potential for including argument from the games organisers, because the athletes shooting in the sport programme. However, I stress that competing in the other sports that replace shooting will that decision is beyond our remit, and we have an still need accommodation. Whether that is near Bisley enormous challenge, in that Birmingham was awarded or Birmingham, there is still a cost. There may be an the games with just 4.5 years to deliver, rather than the opportunity cost, but it is not a saving in real terms. usual seven years. While I have no doubt that the city will deliver an outstanding event, despite that timeframe, Tracey Crouch: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We a number of practical considerations must be taken into can further discuss the assumptions in his point after account to ensure that the games are delivered successfully. the debate. While planning for the games continues, we continue to In selecting optional sports, the games partners have invest in shooting and its athletes’ medal-winning to take into account the four considerations I just aspirations. Colleagues will be pleased to hear that UK outlined, while complying with the athlete and team Sport is providing £6.9 million of funding for the Tokyo official quota restrictions set by the Commonwealth 2020 shooting performance cycle and £2.5 million for Games Federation, which is one of the assumptions my para-shooting. hon. Friend alluded to. The games partners have developed The Government support the notion of shooting a sport programme that includes 3x3 basketball and 3x3 being included, and will work with partners to overcome para-basketball, track cycling and para-track cycling, logistical challenges, if required. We will continue to mountain biking, diving, rhythmic gymnastics and para- work with games partners. In the meantime, I am sure triathlon. my hon. Friend and others will join me in supporting all I will have to disagree slightly with my hon. Friend those involved to ensure the delivery of a fantastic about the value of some of those optional sports, which Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth games. are popular within particular communities that we are Question put and agreed to. trying to engage in sport. In looking at an overall sporting programme, we must ensure that we are inspiring 11.22 am a large number of people across all sectors of society. Sitting suspended. 381WH 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 382WH

Scottish Economy Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con): Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the consequence of this slow growth in our economy is that an estimated £1.7 billion projected to be raised in tax will not be raised at all, and that we [MRS ANNE MAIN in the Chair] will have a deficit in the revenue that is expected to fund the public services we all depend on? 2.30 pm Ged Killen: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point. Ged Killen (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op): We have a serious issue with how we expect to finance I beg to move, public spending in Scotland, and I will come on to that That this House has considered the future of the Scottish later. economy. Unfortunately, the story is the same when we turn to It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, productivity. While the productivity puzzle on these Mrs Main, and to bring such an important and timely islands has been a problem for both Scotland and the debate to the House. I am pleased to see so many rest of the UK, the most recent figures show that in colleagues here, although I am disappointed that the Scotland the puzzle is even more complex, and while Under-Secretary of State for Wales is the only Government UK productivity has risen by 0.7%, trend productivity Minister who could join us. I know the Government in Scotland is zero. On key indicators for growing our take a rather apathetic view of devolution these days— economy and making our workers more productive, the [Interruption.] SNP Government have an even poorer track record than the UK Government. That means that the country Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Let the hon. is not reaching its full potential, and the average person’s Member continue. wages are being squeezed more and more. In the real world, in terms of how far towards the end of the Ged Killen: I must point out that this is a debate month people’s pay reaches, when it comes to buying about the Scottish economy, so I am not sure whether food, paying bills and socialising, the average Scot is the presence of the Minister, albeit welcome, is an worse off now than they were 10 years ago and is doing indication of diary conflicts, or that we are all the same worse than the UK average. in the eyes of the UK Government. It would have been nice to see someone from the Scotland Office or perhaps John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) a Treasury Minister here to answer the debate. (Con): The hon. Gentleman makes a point about take-home pay and how much workers have in their pay packets, It has been 10 years since the financial crisis, and in but when the SNP and Scottish Parliament announced an ideal world we would be looking back on the crisis their “Nat Tax”, his Labour colleagues in the Scottish from a renewed position of strength, with the fundamentals Parliament argued that it did not go high enough. They of our economy strong, and with optimism for the wanted to take greater taxes off the hard-working Scots. future. Sadly,that is not where we find ourselves. Following How can he complain about how much people are a decade of economic mismanagement of Scotland by taking home in their pay packets, when he wants to the Scottish National party and Conservative Governments, increase tax and take more money out of those pay Scotland’seconomy has failed to recover to above pre-crisis packets? levels in a number of areas. The fundamentals of the economy are structurally unsound, with built-in constraints Ged Killen: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments; on future growth, and we appear to be trapped between I know we have very different views on tax and spend, two economic futures: one a Tory hard Brexit, the other and I do not think we will resolve them here. supercharged austerity under the SNP’sgrowth commission. To add to all that, Scotland is more unequal than The Scottish people have lost a decade of economic ever.The wealth disparity means that the average household growth. Under the projections of the Scottish Fiscal would need to save every penny of their income for Commission, that lost decade threatens to turn into a 43 years to enter the top 10% of wealthiest Scots. A generation. However, I remain optimistic, because there failure to increase wages, build more houses or spread is a third way: a Labour vision for the economy—an wealth means that the most significant factor in determining economy driven by investment, not cuts, and a vision whether a person will own their own home or secure a that has an optimistic outlook for the Scottish economy, top-tier job is not their skills and talents, but who their rather than one of managed decline. Today, I will set parents are and where they live. A Scotland where out where the Scottish economy stands; the two visions circumstances of birth will take people further than before us as posed by the UK and Scottish Governments; their skills and talents is not the kind of country we and the third way offered by the Labour party. should aspire to be, but that is the situation we find Ten years on from the financial crisis, the Scottish ourselves in. economy is in a difficult position. Economic growth Despite those facts, the vision put forward by our remains heavily stagnant. GDP growth in Scotland has governing parties is not for the radical transformation averaged out at less than 1% per year since the financial that is clearly needed. On one side, one of Scotland’s crisis, while the rest of the UK has done only slightly Governments supports a damaging Brexit policy that better. Unfortunately, things are not expected to get will cut the ties of Scotland and the rest of the UK to much better, because the Scottish Fiscal Commission the EU’s internal markets and the customs union. The does not expect growth to rise above 1% until after at Fraser of Allander Institute has modelled that with least 2023. If that is the case, Scotland’s economy will each degree of separation from those two tenets of the not just have been at a standstill for a decade, but will EU, Scotland will be more and more damaged. Scotland have remained in the freezer for a generation. faces being between 2% and 5% worse off in GDP terms 383WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 384WH

[Ged Killen] In its model for the future of an independent Scottish economy, the SNP has given up on monetary policy as a as a result of this Tory Brexit, while in the worst of tool for stimulating the economy. By not proposing a cases, under a no-deal Brexit, in which we default to new currency and by setting public spending and borrowing World Trade Organisation rules, wage growth will go targets that even George Osborne would have considered into reverse, the economy will shrink and, most worryingly, ambitious, the SNP has baked serious public spending Scotland’s successful food and drinks exporting industry cuts into its preferred future economic model. Relying could suffer as much as a 26% reduction in trade. on fiscal policy alone to reduce Government debt and budget deficits, they will have to introduce spending Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): Can the hon. cuts, raise taxes or do a combination of both. That is Gentleman explain how the position of his party’s the dictionary definition of austerity. Front Benchers on Brexit is any different from that of Those are the most optimistic of figures. The IFS the Conservative Government? says that, with an ageing population adding to the pressures on the health, social care and state pension Ged Killen: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments; budgets, keeping to the growth commission’s targets he is obviously not paying very close attention in the would likely require cuts to many public services, with Chamber. The UK Governments have very clear red the commission not taking the time to spell out exactly lines drawn all over the place, and none of them seem to where the axe would fall and who would lose out as a reach any kind of consensus. [Interruption.] consequence. Furthermore, the IFS also said what all know to be true: Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I know the hon. “It is also inconsistent to claim that these plans do not amount to austerity but the UK government’s current policy does”, Gentleman’s remarks are provoking comments, but please can those comments be kept to either interventions or particularly while the growth commission’s plans speeches? “imply slightly slower real growth in spending than the UK Government is currently implementing.” Ged Killen: Thank you, Mrs Main. The Labour party I am sure that the SNP will not cease to call itself the position is quite clearly putting jobs and the economy anti-austerity party, even after the growth commission’s first. If the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil publication. However, the facts speak for themselves. Gray) intends to contribute to this debate, perhaps he These are empty calls and stolen clothing. The growth can explain why it is very important for Scotland’s commission is most disappointing because of its lack of economy to remain in the European Union but his ambition. The two Governments of Scotland have produced party wants to take us out of the United Kingdom. plans for the future of the Scottish economy that leave That is something I would find difficult to square. much to be desired, and it is therefore up to the Labour The UK Government, the Scottish Government, the party to present a true alternative. Institute for Fiscal Studies and the Fraser of Allander The Scottish economy has three core structural problems: Institute have all warned of serious damage to Scotland’s stagnant GDP growth, low productivity and demographic economy as the result of a no-deal Brexit. Worryingly, challenges caused by a projected significant increase in recently it has seemed that some members of the the over-65 population and a shrinking in the relative Conservative party believe that that is an acceptable size of the economically active population. Labour has outcome. In no circumstances should any public a vision to address all three problems. The problems of representative be recommending that that risk be taken growth and productivity cannot be separated; they are in pursuit of gains that, in my view, are vastly outweighed twin problems. The Scottish labour market is strong—we by the negatives. have a relatively low unemployment rate by European On the other side of the equation we have the SNP standards, and an exceptionally low youth unemployment Government, who have produced a growth commission rate. to set out how they want to see Scotland’s economy However, while unemployment has decreased over grow in the future. In 2015 and 2017, the SNP stood on the years, wages have stagnated and economic output a manifesto that claimed that it was anti-austerity. The has not matched the increase in the labour force that publication of the growth commission and the endorsement would usually be expected. That is because, while jobs of its policies by the First Minister should represent the have been created, they are predominantly low-skill, day when the mask slipped and the SNP was shown to low-wage jobs that have not helped to accelerate growth; be the party of austerity that we know it to be. nor have they been productive enough to increase wages. In the growth commission, the Scottish Government By introducing a minimum wage of £10 per hour, we propose reducing Scotland’s budget deficit through an can reverse the trend of low wages and encourage approach that would see spending on public services investment to improve labour productivity.If we increase and benefits fall by about 4% of GDP over a decade. the minimum wage, companies will have to invest in Compare that with the policies of the Conservative UK technology and training to improve the output of their Government, as set out by the Office for Budget workforce to match the demands they are under. No Responsibility. The UK Government’s projections see longer will low-wage, gig economy jobs serve to undercut spending on public services and benefits over a five-year the advantages of investment. period, from 2018-19 to 2022-23, falling by 0.9% of GDP. The plans set out by the SNP in the growth Neil Gray: The hon. Gentleman talks about raising commission would mean the Scottish Government cutting the minimum wage, which is a laudable aim for us all to public expenditure on public services and benefits close strive for. However, we are talking about Scotland’s to five times faster than this Conservative UK Government. economy, and he will of course realise that this area of 385WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 386WH economic policy is reserved to the UK Government, so the UK average. These companies also have some of the this is not in the gift of the Scottish Government to highest export rates of any industry, exporting an average enforce. of 75% of their manufactured output. Such companies are often city-based, and we would Ged Killen: The hon. Gentleman will of course realise not typically expect them to be found in smaller towns, that we are in the UK Parliament. Scotland has two such as Blantyre in my constituency.However,CST Global Governments, and I am talking about Labour’s vision has proven that that need not be the case; when conditions for both. [Interruption.] are right, those companies can not only do well but thrive in these places. CST Global is very welcome in Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Mr Gray, the Blantyre. Supporting such businesses is central to the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Ged investment-based economic model. If we want to see Killen) has taken your intervention. Please do not carry the future of the Scottish economy defined by high-skill, on your conversation. high-wage and high-tech jobs, we have to invest.

Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): Does the Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): If hon. Gentleman support the devolution of employment the hon. Gentleman is genuinely interested in growing law? the Scottish economy, he should support the devolution of powers to set VAT and national insurance rates, and Ged Killen: Perhaps the hon. Lady will tell us in her to collect fuel duties, capital gains tax, interest on remarks how her party intends to change employment dividends and export duties, as well as all the other law, if it is devolved to the Scottish Parliament. powers that the Scottish Parliament does not possess Scotland suffers from under-investment. While the and is therefore unable to use to grow our economy. Scottish Government have produced many investment packages, they are often too small, too numerous and Ged Killen: It is nice to see that both the hon. Lady too unfocused to deliver the outcomes they are set up to and her favourite pantomime villains have turned up to achieve. Those are not my words but the conclusions of continue the set-to that we often see in the Chamber. I recent reports by the Fraser of Allander Institute and am here to make a speech on what I believe is right for the Scottish Parliament’s Economy, Jobs and Fair Work the Scottish economy. She will clearly disagree on several Committee. areas, and she can set those out in her remarks. As Under the current Scottish Government, we have had always for SNP Members, independence is the answer, economic development plans governed by press release. no matter the question. I am surprised to hear SNP Labour proposes real investment to correct the problems Members now talk about devolution so much, given of stagnant labour productivity and GDP growth. We that they have always opposed it. [Interruption.] aim to stimulate investment more widely through a national plan that focuses long-term investment on Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. This is becoming local and national infrastructure, such as information, somewhat intolerable. No respect is being shown to the communication, services and production technologies, hon. Gentleman, who is trying to make his speech. This as well as in physical infrastructure, such as roads, is not a conversation among Members; it is a debate, buildings and town and city centres. That will not only which will be held in the proper manner. I ask all correct the decade of under-investment that led to the colleagues to respect the hon. Members making speeches productivity problem, but begin the vital future-proofing and to keep their remarks to themselves or to voice of the Scottish workforce against the challenges of them in the proper manner—through interventions. automation and increasing digitalisation. Furthermore, we plan to examine the possibility of Ged Killen: Thank you, Mrs Main. While we invest in public sector pension funds using their resources to a productive workforce, we must also attract talent to establish a Scottish public provident fund, which could fill those spaces. All of Scotland’s population growth invest in local production and infrastructure, boost from 2016 to 2041 will derive from inward migration, as local supply chains and stimulate employment. deaths will outnumber births in each year. Brexit therefore We will implement our industrial strategy and invest presents a risk, as it could reduce inward migration in Scotland’s economy. We will also encourage and from the EU. However, even without Brexit, population incentivise firms in Scotland to raise the percentage of growth is too slow and lags behind that of other parts of turnover invested in research and development. Scotland the UK, both in terms of birth and death rates, and is only ninth in the UK in R&D spend per head, so such through inward migration. We can correct that by measures are sorely needed and will be vital in solving supporting a needs-based immigration system. It is the productivity puzzle. Those kinds of investments will simply unhelpful to focus on an abstract number, as the encourage the growth of new industries. An excellent UK Government are doing—or are failing to do. example of that is CST Global in my constituency—a However, we must also build the communities that photonics manufacturer that I believe represents the attract the best talent. That is why we have called on the future of jobs in Scotland. Scottish and UK Governments to get on with the CST Global has shown itself to be a significantly completion of the city deals projects. People move to high-growth, high-skill business. It has sustained strong cities and communities. The delivery of more than annual growth, with revenues increasing by 88% in a £1 billion of funding and the devolution of further year to £6.7 million in 2017. It is a strong exporter, and powers will allow our cities and communities to make the photonics industry is one of the UK’smost productive. themselves attractive to international talent on their On average, each employee in the sector contributes own terms, rather than having terms dictated by Holyrood £62,000 to the economy in gross value per year—three times or Westminster. 387WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 388WH

[Ged Killen] Under the guidance of the SNP, the Scottish economy has grown at half the UK rate. It has failed to meet its Overall, 83% of Scotland’s population—4.5 million targets to match the UK GDP growth rate and succeeded people—live in areas covered by existing or planned city only in overseeing the slowest growth rate of any country region deals. That is a huge amount of talent and in the EU. aspiration to be unlocked, and we simply cannot wait any longer. However, those deals have been bogged Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and down as both the Scottish and UK Governments cannot Strathspey) (SNP):Does the hon. Gentleman agree with bring themselves together to settle the matter. We have his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, seen in the wrangling over the devolution settlement Energy and Industrial Strategy that the responsibility that the SNP and Conservative party can lock themselves for the growth of all the nations of the UK sits firmly in disagreement if it is politically opportune to do so; with him? dare I say that we have seen that today? However, the people of Scotland should not be punished because of Luke Graham: That is why we are having a debate in the narrow interests of the two governing parties. this place—because growth is the responsibility of the In conclusion, Scotland has lost a decade of economic United Kingdom. The problem is the claims of the progress under its two Governments. If nothing changes, SNP Administration that they champion economic growth this decade threatens to turn into a generation of stagnation. in Scotland. Scottish Enterprise is devolved. Much of However, an opportunity exists to turn this around, and the tourism is devolved. The scream for powers has meant the pathway to growth is best fulfilled by an investment- that so many levers have been denied to this place and based economic model. put into Edinburgh. Although I agree that accountability —[Interruption.] If you want to make an intervention, stand up and make one, madam. 2.49 pm Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con): It Deidre Brock: I will. is a pleasure to serve under your direction, Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton Luke Graham: Come on then. West (Ged Killen) on securing this important debate on a matter that is close to my and many of my colleagues’ Deidre Brock: I am just going to repeat what I said hearts. before: the setting of VAT rates, national insurance, fuel duties, capital gains tax are not devolved to the Scottish I will begin by looking at some of the statistical Parliament and therefore can have no impact on the indicators for Scotland’s current economic performance, economic powers that the hon. Gentleman is talking starting with GDP.Scotland’s GDP was 1.7% in 2015; it about. plummeted to 0.2% in 2016 and rose marginally, to 0.4%, in 2017. In comparison, UK GDP was 2.3% in Luke Graham: The hon. Lady repeats the point, and 2015, 1.9% in 2016 and 1.8% in 2017. The employment it is as weak as it was the first time. rate in Scotland in the first three months of 2018 was 75.2%, compared with a UK rate of 75.6%. The The Scottish economy is not forecast to grow by more unemployment rate in Scotland was 4.3%, slightly higher than 1% at any stage over the next five years. As a result, than the UK rate of 4.2%, over the same period. the Scottish economy will be more than £18 billion smaller by 2022. It is not helped one iota by any devolved power, whereas in this place we have been trying to help Neil Gray: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? the Scottish economy.

Luke Graham: Not just now. According to figures Stephen Kerr: Does my hon. Friend agree with the provided by the House of Commons Library, the conclusion of the Economy,Jobs and Fair Work Committee unemployment rate for my constituency of Ochil and of the Scottish Parliament, which includes, I think, four South Perthshire is 0.5% higher than the UK unemployment or five SNP Members? It states: rate.Meanwhile,the Scottish Fiscal Commission’spredicted “If we are to reverse this trend then the Scottish Government growth rate for Scotland is 0.7% in 2018, 0.8% in 2019 must use all of the levers at its disposal to bring a sharper focus on and 0.9% thereafter until 2022. In comparison, the growing the economy, and ensuring that growth is inclusive.” Office for Budget Responsibility forecast the UK growth That is something they are failing to do currently. rate to be 1.5% this year, 1.3% next year and to rise thereafter to 1.5% over the same period. Luke Graham: I thank my hon. Friend for his The more observant among us will have noticed that intervention; I could not agree more. One point on for every single one of those economic statistics, Scotland which I do agree with the hon. Member for Rutherglen lags behind the UK in terms of economic performance. and Hamilton West is that Scotland has two levels of However, it is not just in GDP, employment and government—one in Edinburgh and one in Westminster— unemployment rates or forecast growth that that is the and they should work together productively to try to case. Scotland’s median weekly earnings are also lower improve Scotland’s economic performance, which lags than those of the UK. When it comes to small business behind that of the UK. As a Member who has just confidence, Scotland lags about 23 percentage points negotiated a city deal for his region, I can say honestly, behind the UK. Meanwhile, Scotland has higher public hand on heart, that the two levels of government are sector expenditure per head yet lower public sector not working well together.The relationship is dysfunctional; revenue per head than the UK. Put simply, Scottish it does not work. Powers are being hoarded in Edinburgh taxpayers are not getting value for money from their and not given down to the local authorities, as they public sector. should be. 389WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 390WH

Productivity is lower than it was in 2010 and the gap A key component missing from the plan for the between Scottish and UK productivity is wider than it future of Scotland’s economy is an appropriate and was in 2009. Scotland has the lowest rate of business robust industrial strategy, on which I will focus my growth in the UK and is forced to pay the highest remarks. Neither the UK Government nor the Scottish business rates in Europe. In addition, the SNP broke a Government have a coherent strategy for industry in major manifesto promise and raised tax on more than 1 Scotland. As a result, Scotland’s economy is declining. million Scots earning over £26,000, ensuring that Scotland’s Economic growth has slowed to well below its historical wealth creators have less of their wealth to create more average. It was 0.2% during the first quarter of 2018, through further investment. according to figures released today. Real wages are We talk about powers a lot in this place; the issue lower today than they were in 2010, and closures continue. dominates a lot of our debate, but let us be clear. The One of the areas where the lack of an industrial only power given back was that to vary income tax by strategy is clearest is the construction sector. Crummock, 1p, and it was given back to Westminster by the SNP, a construction firm in my constituency of Midlothian, having originally been devolved under the Scotland recently collapsed and its closure led to the direct loss of Act 1998. The Conservatives do not give away powers; almost 300 jobs. the SNP does. [Interruption.] Between 2010 and 2016, Scotland’s economic growth rate was 1.7%, compared Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): Does the with—[Interruption.] hon. Lady share my concern that the industrial strategy Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. The hon. that Scotland requires needs a strong, well-functioning Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock) and delivering education system? Over the past decade, must control herself. She is not down to speak, but she Scotland’s education system has been undermined to can speak if she wishes to rise. Will she please limit her the extent that one in five children now leave school remarks to either interventions or a speech, instead of functionally illiterate. barracking? Danielle Rowley: I thank the hon. Lady for her Luke Graham: Scotland’s economic growth rate was intervention. I absolutely agree that education is a 1.7%, compared with 1.9% for the UK, and that was fundamental part of growing industry in Scotland. even before Brexit, showing that Scotland’s economy The collapse of Crummock in my constituency is just consistently performs worse than that of the United the latest example of the deep problems surrounding Kingdom. the financial health and stability of the Scottish construction Last year the SNP Administration set up the Scottish industry. growth scheme—a £500 million fund designed “to help businesses thrive and grow”. John Lamont: The hon. Lady is speaking very well They have spent only £25 million of that fund. Similarly, about the economic challenges that Scotland faces. they have failed to spend a single penny of the £36 million Does she agree that those challenges would be turned digital growth fund since it was announced in March 2017. into complete misery for the people of Scotland if the Meanwhile, last Thursday, the Cabinet Secretary for SNP had its way and ripped Scotland out of the United Finance and the Constitution, Derek Mackay,announced Kingdom? that there was a £453 million underspend by the SNP Administration in the last financial year. It is the Danielle Rowley: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his fourth year in a row that the SNP Administration have intervention. He will know that I would agree with that. underspent their budget. In total, it is more than £1.2 billion To focus on the construction industry, the collapse of that they have chosen to deprive the Scottish economy Crummock is just one of many that we have seen of since 2014. That is unacceptable. recently, with many job losses, in Scotland. The closure Meanwhile, my local councils in Clackmannanshire of large employers such as Crummock will have a and Perth and Kinross are forced to increase council tax significant impact on local economies. A number of and cut services for our local residents. That means cuts suppliers and service providers have spoken to me about to music tuition, public transport and the upkeep of our their worries. A small electrical company and those paths and roads. It is unacceptable and it cannot go on. providing cleaning services have expressed to me concerns This is not about Brexit. It is about the deliberately about the future of their businesses following Crummock’s dysfunctional devolution overseen by the Scottish National closure. Such closures reflect the failure of an economic party. The SNP is failing our constituents through its strategy that is over-reliant on free-market forces, as woeful mismanagement of the Scottish economy and its well as an absence of joined-up Government policy and refusal to invest the money that we already have and the action, especially in public procurement. money that comes from this place, which should be going directly to our constituents. If they do not want to use the Ross Thomson (Aberdeen South) (Con): You mentioned levers of administration to improve the Scottish economy, the lack of free-market forces. Do you agree with your perhaps it is time to stand aside for the Conservative shadow Chancellor when he says that he wants to and Unionist Opposition, who certainly will. overthrow capitalism and bring down Britain’s system of free enterprise? That would mean fewer jobs, less 2.56 pm money for public services and untold damage to the Danielle Rowley (Midlothian) (Lab): It is a pleasure to Scottish economy. Do you agree with his position? serve under your chairship, Mrs Main, for what I believe is the first time. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Please speak Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Ged Killen) through the Chair. I do not agree with any of that. Ask on securing this very important debate. the hon. Lady if she agrees with that. 391WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 392WH

Danielle Rowley: Thank you, Mrs Main. I think that East Renfrewshire is home to the thriving small businesses overthrowing capitalism is a matter bigger than this and micro-enterprises that power the British economy debate. Perhaps we can debate it some other time. while also providing investment and employment for Crummock’s recent accounts noted that the absence the local community. It is these companies that help of public sector contracts was the biggest risk to the make Britain one of the largest economies in the world, firm’sfuture. That includes Scottish Government contracts which helps provide our vital public services. We have and local authority contracts, which have been declining more established names, such as Barrhead Travel and as local government budgets are slashed. That suggests A. C. Whyte, which are based in East Renfrewshire but the need for an investigation into how public institutions are world leaders in their sector, as well as dynamic, can best use the resources available and better support newer enterprises, such as J&M Murdoch & Son, which the construction sector and the wider industry in Scotland. was recently recognised in the 2018 London Stock It also suggests that the decline in council revenue Exchange report, “1000 Companies to Inspire”. The funding overseen by the Scottish Government, which Scottish and UK Governments must prioritise and has fallen in real terms by 9.6% since 2010, is having a support those companies and many thousands like them, severe impact on Scotland’s local economies. if we are to encourage investment and continue to grow our sluggish economy. By contrast, Scottish Labour plans to invest in Scotland’s economy.Labour policy would see £70 billion of investment For too long, however, a high oil price has hidden in industry in Scotland. We would create a national Scotland’seconomic underperformance, allowing Scottish investment bank that would see £20 billion of capital Governments of both colours to neglect fixing the structured in Scotland for industrial strategy and investment. Scottish economy’s fundamentals. Most recently, the That is the scale of investment required to get the sector Scottish Parliament’s own highly respected Economy, to where it needs to be. We need to be investing to the Jobs and Fair Work Committee unanimously agreed a tune of billions of pounds, not just the millions of report that stated that in Scotland, pounds put forward by the SNP. “levels of GDP growth are marginal, productivity low and wages Closures in the construction industry have further are stagnant”. highlighted the vital need to proactively plan for the Scotland’s major problem, as the hon. Member for sustainable development of our industrial base. Rather Rutherglen and Hamilton West has highlighted, is its than simply reacting to market failure, we must plan productivity, which is at a lower level than it was in ahead. As part of that, the Scottish Government need 2010. The gap between UK and Scottish productivity is to properly investigate why well-established Scottish larger than it was in 2009. construction companies are collapsing. The Scottish Government do deserve some credit for The focus of that investigation should include any setting up the new Scottish national investment bank. changes to the way in which banks finance companies. Ultimately, however, it was a rehashed announcement We need to look at why it is taking so long for of something that has already supposedly been launched subcontractors to be paid by client companies, which is multiple times by this tired, separatist Government. If it another huge issue raised with me. The investigation does come to fruition, it will be a positive step for the must also look at office-based workers and administration Scottish economy, but we will have to wait and see what staff who are affected by construction sector closures. happens. The construction industry already displays the largest gender pay gap. Once again, female workers are Last year, the Scottish economy grew at less than half disproportionately and adversely affected by the collapse the rate of the UK and slower than every single EU country. of construction companies. Future predictions are not particularly positive. The Another area where there is a clear need for a coherent Scottish Fiscal Commission forecasts that Scotland will strategy to support our economy is our struggling high fail to match wider UK economic growth for the next streets. We need to mitigate the effects of RBS bank five years. That is really important, because it means closures and post office closures. The Secretary of State less money for the Scottish NHS, Scottish schools and for Scotland needs to work with the Scottish Government other Scottish public services. It means less money in to develop an appropriate industrial strategy for Scotland. the pockets of those struggling to get by and businesses Both Governments must work with our local councils taking on fewer staff. It means less money circulating in and properly fund them, so that our local economies the local economy, something which contributes to the can be supported. picture of high streets across Scotland, where local businesses simply cannot continue. Several hon. Members rose— Let us not forget that behind the economic data, this is a real story for people throughout Scotland. Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. The wind-ups Entrepreneurs are risk takers, innovators and wealth will start at 3.30 pm. I hope not to impose a time limit creators. They need both our Governments to support on speeches. If all hon. Members confine their remarks them, but too often they are the victims of competing to about five minutes or less, we will not need one. priorities. The UK Government have recognised the importance of increasing productivity,with the publication 3.3 pm of the industrial strategy, and city deals are an important part of solving the productivity puzzle. The Glasgow Paul Masterton (East Renfrewshire) (Con): It is a city region deal is investing £44 million in East Renfrewshire. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I was pleased to visit a number of the projects recently. I congratulate my colleague on the Scottish Affairs City deals also demonstrate the benefits of Scotland’s Committee,the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton two Governments working together rather than pulling West (Ged Killen), on securing this important debate. apart—we need a heck of a lot more of that. 393WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 394WH

Meanwhile, businesses in rural Scotland, including Christine Jardine: Does my hon. Friend share my areas such as Eaglesham and Uplawmoor, continue to disappointment, in that although the highlands has be hampered by poor broadband—a basic necessity in successes, they could have been so much stronger had the 21st century. People across Scotland have been hit the Highlands and Islands Enterprise agency not been with a double whammy, as the SNP Government raise so undermined since 2007 by a Scottish national taxes on more than 1 million Scots—22,000 of them in Government in Holyrood determined to centralise my constituency—on top of significant council tax hikes. everything, including enterprise, and to tie HIE’s hands Local employers suffer under the highest business rates behind its back ? across Europe. I do not understand why the Scottish Government believe that when 80% of our economy is Jamie Stone: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. based in the service sector they can boost economic Let us not forget that the Highlands and Islands growth by taking more out of hard-working people’s Development Board, as it then was, was introduced by wallets. Harold Wilson’s Labour Government because, as was The truth is that the Scottish economy needs a kick. said at the time, the highlands were on the conscience of It is flatlining and the Scottish Government’s high-tax the rest of Scotland. Anything that undermines enterprise agenda may be the final straw. The UK Government today worries me greatly.Highlands and Islands Enterprise have introduced various measures, including the national did some research some years ago looking at the word living wage, personal allowance increases and wider “highland” and what it means. It is synonymous with an business initiatives, such as the industrial strategy, to unspoilt environment with a particularly special culture. help mitigate some of the damage, but they also can In marketing terms, the word “highland” is a strong and should do more. We need a pragmatic approach tool to use. and some better joined-up thinking between Scotland’s I turn to slightly more problematic areas. When I was two Governments. Nine successive quarters of declining growing up in the highlands, pretty much all my generation activity in the construction sector, for example, is not left the area to find employment. They went to England, acceptable. The hon. Member for Midlothian (Danielle or abroad. Some went to Canada. My father used to say Rowley) dealt well with some of the challenges facing to me, “When you leave school, you will go away to find that sector. work.” Then Nigg came to Easter Ross and provided Yesterday saw the departure from Holyrood of an vital jobs. Some years earlier,Dounreay came to Caithness Economic Secretary whose legacy is one of declining and offered the same, and the historical depopulation productivity, skills, job quality and investment, and an of the highlands, whereby our brightest and best left, economy with one of the lowest GDP growth rates in was halted and reversed. I brought up my family in the OECD.Scotland needs a Scottish Government prepared Easter Ross. They went to school there, and that might to invest and give businesses the opportunity and security not have happened if I had not had employment at they so desperately need. Roll on 2021, when we will Nigg. finally get one. How do we replace that employment? Hopefully, the price of oil will recover, and Global may yet get the 3.8 pm contracts we crave. In the case of Dounreay, we have to Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) work out—for not only the local economy but the (LD): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Scottish economy—how we replace those jobs with Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. Member for Rutherglen high-quality jobs that build on the skills that we have in and Hamilton West (Ged Killen) on securing this important Caithness and parts of Sutherland. That is a challenge debate. What I am about to say might be slightly more for the Government. It can be done, but it will require a boring than previous contributions to this debate. leap of faith at both Scottish and UK level to say, “Yes, we will put a nuclear reactor at Dounreay,” or “Yes, we Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con): Never! will approve putting in a big oil platform construction yard at Nigg.” That is what I am looking for on that Jamie Stone: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that front. point. I want to talk about the positive points of the Scottish economy, as well as some of the challenges we We had a debate on upland farming yesterday. We face. As always, I will turn hon. Member’s eyes to my need to add value to the farm product. Again, that is constituency in the far north. linked into the image of the highlands. Upland farming First, I want to talk about food and drink. There is in any other part of Scotland has a clean environmental no doubt that we have great strengths in the highlands, image that is crucial to marketing, so thought needs to particularly in my constituency. I will take a leaf out of be given to that. the book of the hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) Our towns’and cities’infrastructure has been mentioned. and name some distilleries in my constituency, which Let us not kid ourselves: we have a crisis in many of our make the most excellent products: Glenmorangie, Balblair, town centres, which are dying before our very eyes. Dalmore, Clynelish and Old Pulteney in Wick. If we Once thriving high streets have far too many charity combine that with the quality of food that is offered, all shops and similar. The issue of bank closures was the way from the Cocoa Mountain in Durness, which touched on by the hon. Member for Midlothian (Danielle makes the most delicious hot chocolate, to The Albannach, Rowley). That has in no way helped what has been which has one Michelin star, in Lochinver, and from happening in our Scottish towns. I have made this plea Luigi’s in Dornoch to Greens Market in Tain, we can before, but for the good of the economy, we should have offer a really good tourism product. The success of the some sort of one-stop shop, in which the Scottish north coast 500 is based on what we can offer. There is a clearing banks combine to provide a human face offering message for a wider Scotland in that: if we can get these services at a counter. At the end of the day, a hole in the things right, we can boost the local economy. wall cannot provide the advice that people need. 395WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 396WH

[Jamie Stone] A national investment bank of the type found in many European countries would ensure the availability The challenge for Government is to modernise banking. of quality patient capital. Entrepreneurs have to have I have written several times to the Chancellor of the access to patient capital, because they need immediate Exchequer to ask whether a scheme could be introduced investment for longer-term returns. If businesses do not to stop the rot in our town centres. In the widest context have access to that quality of capital in our country, of the Scottish economy, if our communities and town they move to where they can get it. If they do not centres die, it not only shows rot in the economy, but physically move, the ideas that need to be nurtured by damages our social infrastructure and our cohesion. patient capital move, and we see the continuation of the With the best will and the best of intentions, we can old cycle.Britain, and Scotland in particular,is a magnificent head off those challenges, but we must all work together nursery of imagination and creativity. New products to deal with them. and concepts start off on their journey of commercialisation on these shores, but end up being fully deployed and 3.14 pm exploited somewhere else. That cycle must be broken for Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve good, and the availability of patient capital is crucial. under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Ged Mr Paul Sweeney (Glasgow North East) (Lab/Co-op): Killen) on securing this important debate on the future The hon. Gentleman mentioned Jim McColl; I met him of Scotland’s economy. recently to discuss the future of commercial shipbuilding Scotland’s GDP continues to languish in the doldrums in Scotland. The example he cites is exactly the point and is not forecast to grow by more than 1% per year that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. In Germany, they until at least 2023. A critical indicator of an economy’s have access to patient finance and can finance the future success is the overall level of investment. In capital cost of a ship—up to £1 billion apiece—whereas Scotland, although foreign investment is high, overall in Scotland there is simply no facility for that. Does he investment is low. That is not a healthy picture, and it is not agree that a Scottish investment bank, although a not a solely Scottish problem, but one that affects the laudable proposal, would not be on anywhere near the entire UK economy. It is one of the key drivers of low scale needed to achieve the massive industrial growth productivity. that we need? According to World Bank figures, investment in the UK from public and private sources sits at 17% of our Stephen Kerr: I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. GDP, which put us 118th in the world. The United That is why I am advocating, for the future of Scotland’s States invests 20% of its economy, and Japan invests economy, a UK investment bank. I have had many 24%. The arguments on the need to improve our levels dealings with Jim McColl, and I agree with the direction of investment are well rehearsed, but I would like to of his argument. focus on the need for a fully functioning, effectively Patientcapitalinstilslong-termsupport,buildsconfidence organised UK national investment bank to shape the in the whole commercialisation process, from ideation future of Scotland’seconomy,and to invest in enterprise— to launch, and fosters the entrepreneurial spirit of our especially, of course, in Scotland. Let me strike a chord brightest and best. The return on patient capital invested of bipartisanship here. I know the Scottish National is a measure of financial success, but when it comes to party has a plan for a Scottish investment bank, and it is measuring social good, those things are exponentially better. a worthy concept, but I want to advance the case for a I prepared a much longer speech on this subject. I UK national investment bank. know the Minister might refer me to the British Business Jim McColl is one of Scotland’s most successful Bank, but to me it is not really operating to its full business people and we should listen to him. He recently potential as an actual real bank. The resource available commissioned a report from University College London is too low. It is £200 million a year from the taxpayer for on the case for a UK national investment bank, and I the whole UK economy; that will do little to address the recommend it as a thoroughly sound read. I would be investment shortfall in our economy.Essentially the British very happy to supply every Member of the House with Business Bank needs to be reformed to become a real a digital copy of the report, from which I wish to make bank with the ability to issue bonds and raise funds. three quick points. First, Finally, in the interests of time—I might have already “By making strategic investments and nurturing new industrial gone over my time limit, for which I apologise,Mrs Main—I landscapes, a modern industrial strategy focused on solving important want to ask the Minister a couple of simple questions as societal challenges can help to rebalance the economy and reinvigorate we consider the future of Scotland’s economy. Do the industrial base.” the Government accept that British businesses and Secondly, entrepreneurs need an additional source of good quality “This requires not just any type of finance but patient, long-term, patient capital—capital that is not currently available in committed finance. This can take different forms, but in many any quantity? What is our Government’s considered countries, patient strategic finance is increasingly coming from state investment banks...By developing new financial tools and view on the proposition that the British Business Bank working closely with public and private stakeholders, state investment be converted into a fully functioning national investment banks can—if structured effectively—play a leading role driving bank, on the same basis as the national investment growth and innovation.” banks in other countries? To agree further with the hon. Thirdly, Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Sweeney), Germany “The European Investment Bank...has long been a key source is an example: the KfW is worthy of close examination of finance for infrastructure projects in the UK, financing £7 billion by the Government, especially as we leave the European of projects in 2016.” Union and have to consider how we will support British As we leave the EU, we clearly need to consider options businesses—and Scottish businesses in particular—to to replace the European Investment Bank. compete on the global scene. 397WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 398WH

Several hon. Members rose— That inward investment is happening in the face of Tory austerity,during which time the Scottish Government Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Before I call have focused on building an economy of the future—taking Mr Drew Hendry, I remind colleagues that I will call the measures to unlock innovation and drive productivity. Front Benchers at around half-past. As we have heard today, productivity is the key, but what we have not heard today is how UK productivity has flatlined for the past decade. As economists will 3.20 pm agree, productivity is not everything, but it is almost Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and everything, to an economy. Strathspey) (SNP): It is a pleasure to serve under your The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. Member (Luke Graham) talked about the city deals, but not for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Ged Killen) on about how, for example, when one of those deals was securing the debate, and share his disappointment that put together in Inverness, the Scottish Government put neither the Secretary of State for Scotland nor any of in £135 million and the UK Government—in a so-called his team turned out for the debate. partnership—put in only £52 million. I should like to give some uncommon— Christine Jardine: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Stephen Kerr: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Drew Hendry: No, I am not going to give way. I am going to make some progress; there is limited time in the Drew Hendry: I was just about to give the hon. debate. Gentleman some praise—but carry on. The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire also talked about the Scottish Government having a Stephen Kerr: It is a well-known convention in the surplus this year. The Scottish Government work with a House that no Secretary of State or Cabinet Minister fixed budget; they cannot overrun on that. Other Members responds to debates in Westminster Hall, and the point have mentioned Governments working together, but the that the hon. Gentleman made was not entirely fair. present Tory Government cannot even work with the other parties in the Scottish Parliament on Brexit, so Drew Hendry: If the hon. Gentleman had been listening how can they be trusted to work with the Scottish to what I said, he would know I said “or any of his Government? The other falsehood—I am sorry, I will team”. [Interruption.] take back that word. The other erroneous suggestion made was that Scotland is under a high-tax agenda. Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. That was to forget conveniently that 70% of people in Scotland now pay less tax than they did last year. Drew Hendry: It is such a shame: I was going to offer some unusual, uncommon praise for the hon. Member The biggest threat to Scotland’s economy comes from for Stirling (Stephen Kerr), with whom I commonly the Tory Government’s reckless—[Interruption.] duel across the Chamber, where we fervently disagree. Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. The hon. However, his speech today was unusually positive. It Gentleman’s comments will be heard. Hon. Members may have been slightly off track, as he admitted, but will please refrain from barracking. judging by its tone he was at least looking for some opportunity. Drew Hendry: Thank you, Mrs Main. I would also almost make an honourable exception of The biggest threat to Scotland’s economy comes from the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter the Tory Government’s reckless obsession with a hard Ross (Jamie Stone). Until he took an intervention, Brexit. That is not being challenged by the Labour which unfortunately did not point out that Highlands Front Benchers. We have no protection from it. The and Islands Enterprise still operates exactly as it did in Scottish Government have put forward, in “Scotland’s the past, or mention the new south of Scotland enterprise Place in Europe”, an option to enable Scotland to avoid agency to go with it, he was talking about Scotland’s the worst effects and stay in the single market and strengths. Otherwise, what a desperate collection of customs union. Incidentally, this week the EU chief speeches talking Scotland down— negotiator Guy Verhofstadt said that that would be entirely acceptable. Scotland is likely to be hammered Christine Jardine rose— by a hard Brexit.

Jamie Stone rose— Christine Jardine: On that point—

Drew Hendry: I will not give way just now. We are Drew Hendry: No, I am going to make progress. The short of time. Fraser of Allander Institute estimates that 80,000 jobs are at risk. Scotland has strong economic fundamentals. We heard nothing about its vast natural resources, the innovation Paul Masterton: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? there, or the talent of our people. Scotland has the most inward investment of anywhere in the UK outside Drew Hendry: No, I am going to carry on, because I London. have only a minute. The UK Government are paying no real attention to Luke Graham: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? stimulating the oil and gas industry. Fortunately there is now an upturn in oil and gas prices, and we need Drew Hendry: I am going to make some progress. investment from the UK Government. 399WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 400WH

[Drew Hendry] Drew Hendry: Thank you, Mrs Main. The other issue I wanted to touch on was the opportunity I have much more to say, and as we are the third party for carbon capture and storage development in Scotland. in Parliament I should have hoped for more time to say There is a measure of co-operation between the UK and it, but unfortunately that is not the case— Scottish Governments, but there is nowhere near the required level of ambition from the UK Government. Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. The hon. The rug was pulled out from under Peterhead, where Gentleman is not under a time limit. I was just indicating £1 billion of investment was supposed to be put into the that other colleagues wish to speak. carbon capture and storage operation. At the time, that was judged to be just about enough. Now, the Drew Hendry: In that case I will keep going; thank UK Government’s overall investment in carbon capture you very much for allowing me to do that. and storage is set to be about £100 million, which is desperately insufficient for the needs of the carbon Jamie Stone: I would not want the hon. Gentleman capture industry, and nowhere near the amount needed to misunderstand me. I do not decry the efforts being to show the ambition that we should be showing to lead made by Highlands and Islands Enterprise. However, that industry. I will draw my remarks to a close, and I anyone who thinks that despite its best efforts it is more thank you, Mrs Main, for allowing me the extra time. than a poor shadow of what went before, in the Highlands and Islands Development Board, is in dreamland. Surely hon. Members agree with me about that. Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): The hon. Gentleman was not on a time limit. With the permission of the Drew Hendry: I disagree, and so do many businesses Front Benchers, I will take four extra minutes from that I interact with in the highlands on a daily basis. them and place a two-minute time limit on the last two Back-Bench Members, who have been here for the Production efficiency in the oil sector has risen for entire debate. the fifth consecutive year, reaching 74% in 2017, demonstrating sustained efficiency improvements and 3.30 pm maximising the economic recovery. Oil & Gas UK’s “Business Outlook for 2018”shows growth in investment Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con): I will be brief.I congratulate and a further 5% increase in the forecast production for the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West that year. Recent industry announcements about BP’s (Ged Killen) on securing this debate. He started with a successful working discoveries in the Capercaillie and tettie point, which was repeated by the hon. Member for Achmelvich wells and Shell’s redevelopment of the Inverness,Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry). Penguins field demonstrate the investment potential A UK Minister is present to respond on the UK that the UK fields still hold. Over the next decade our Government’s behalf, and I do not see any problem oil and gas sector can capitalise on the decommissioning with that. market, which is forecast to reach £17 billion; but that is The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West only if the right decisions on investment are made. said that in his speech, he would mention a third way—a Labour way—and I was excited about that, because on John Lamont: The hon. Gentleman points out the Monday night, the small rump of Scottish Labour challenges for the oil and gas sector, but on Monday MPs voted three different ways in the Heathrow debate. when the Scottish Affairs Committee was taking evidence Some voted for it, some voted against it, and others on the sector in Aberdeen, we heard people saying they joined the Scottish National party in sitting on their wanted fracking to be expanded in Scotland. Does he hands. In a debate about the future of Scotland’seconomy, support the industry in making that call? it is interesting that not a single SNP Member who has spoken or intervened has mentioned their last-minute Drew Hendry: I certainly do not support fracking. I decision to change their mind about Heathrow on orders do not believe that a country as rich in natural resources from Nicola Sturgeon and to stop the investment into and renewable energy as we are—and indeed one with Scotland’s jobs and economy. the oil and gas industry that we have at the moment—needs to go for fracking. I absolutely support the ban on fracking Drew Hendry: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? in Scotland. [HON.MEMBERS: “There is no ban!”] There is a ban in Scotland. As to an effective ban, a court Douglas Ross: The hon. Gentleman spoke for 10 minutes; ruled in the past week that that is the case: fracking I cannot take an intervention from him. cannot go ahead in Scotland under the current situation. SNP Members sat on their hands and abstained, Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): despite talking in the debate about all the positive Unfortunately I am a bit late to the debate, but I have interventions that would come to Scotland as a result of been paying attention. I am amazed by the efforts of Heathrow’s expansion. Conservative Members, in relation to thinking of Scotland It is good that some SNP MSPs can speak out as a country. They are the people who want to see against their party. My hon. Friends have quoted a Scotland as a region. [Interruption.] They should remember report, “Scotland’s Economic Performance”, by a cross- that the Norwegians have an oil fund, whereas they party committee of the Scottish Parliament and supported have squandered Scotland’s oil. by SNP MSPs, which says: “Levels of GDP growth are marginal; productivity is low and Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. The hon. wages are stagnant.” Gentleman should resume his seat. He was not making an intervention, but engaging in a debate with the Angus Brendan MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman Opposition. He attended the debate very late. give way? 401WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 402WH

Douglas Ross: No—I will not give way to some Administration. We have had to put up with the Johnny-come-lately. consequences and do the best we can with one hand tied Eleven years of SNP power in Scotland have resulted behind our back. in its own MSPs criticising it. We have two Governments in Scotland—a UK Government and a Scottish Ged Killen: Will the hon. Lady give way? Government—who should be working together, but all we get from the SNP is its obsession with independence Alison Thewliss: My time is constrained, and there and picking fights with Westminster, rather than standing are a couple of hon. Members I want to mention, but I up for my Moray constituents and others. will try to take an intervention from the hon. Gentleman if I can. 3.32 pm I would also take issue with anybody who says that the Scottish National party has a lack of ambition; we Hugh Gaffney (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) could not have more ambition for our country than to (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, take control of all the financial levers to improve the Mrs Main. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member conditions for our people.With the powers of independence, for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Ged Killen) on that is exactly what we would do. securing this debate. Scotland’s economy is performing relatively well on After a decade of the Scottish National party and many indicators. It is a country with many economic eight years of a Conservative Government, what will strengths: it is an attractive place to work, live and the future of Scotland’s economy be? Where are the conduct business. jobs, the finance and the security for our next generation of young workers as we enter the uncharted waters of life outside the European Union? After a recent trip to Colin Clark (Gordon) (Con): The end of property Brussels, we were told that Brexit is over. In Europe, we business rates relief in Aberdeen is doing a lot of have already left—only the paperwork has to be filled damage to the business community, which is having, in. Deal or no deal, we are out of the European market. essentially, to knock down buildings. Does the hon. Lady agree that that policy went too far, and that there Section 11 of the European Union (Withdrawal) have been consequences that the Scottish Government Act 2018 should have been fixed in time for Scotland’s did not foresee? Would she recommend that Scottish voice to be heard, but without the SNP’s approval, and Government Ministers reverse it? with a Tory party that could not make amends or recommendations, the buck was passed to the House of Lords. The SNP could only huff and puff and walk out Alison Thewliss: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman of the House for five minutes as it was blowing down, has made those representations to the Minister and that with their instructions to walk out following behind the Minister will take them on board. them. We have one of the lowest youth unemployment I sympathise with the Scottish Government, who, like rates, not just in the UK, but in the whole of the EU. We us, waited on our amendments to section 11. For the have been described as the most highly qualified population Tories to fail to deliver on the will of the Scottish people anywhere in Europe, and we are the most successful puts our devolution settlement at risk, with fewer powers part of the UK outside London when it comes to and a breakdown between the two Governments. attracting foreign investment. Our exports have gone up 44.7% under the SNP, to more than £29.8 billion in What will the future of the economy be when we have 2016, which is no small feat. Scotland was the only part low wages, fewer working hours, temporary jobs, agency of the UK where employment went up in the last year. work and, of course—the way to get unemployment figures down—zero-hours contracts? What chance do We have a well-deserved international reputation in a our Scottish youth have of building a future, securing range of growth sectors of the economy, such as life housing, raising a family or providing for themselves sciences, the creative industries, and food and drink, as before caring for others? It really is a game of survival. the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter In 2018, it is sad that the only growth and development Ross (Jamie Stone) mentioned. Those sectors are an in Scotland is in food banks. asset to our country. We are also making great strides in renewable energy. Through Scottish Enterprise, we have Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Before I call the invested an additional £45 million in business research SNP spokesperson, Alison Thewliss, I ask her to try to over the next three years. confine her remarks to eight minutes. There is no doubt that Scotland is a wealthy nation, but challenges remain. Like other advanced economies, we face long-term structural inequality. The Glasgow 3.34 pm Centre for Population Health has found that the decisions Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): I will try, taken by the Tory Government in the 1980s are still Mrs Main. It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair. I having repercussions. [Interruption.] The post-industrial thank the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton impact that hon. Members on the Government side are West (Ged Killen) for securing this spirited debate. chortling about has had a long-term effect on my Hon. Members have lots of ideas about the Scottish constituents and constituents across Scotland. economy, which is always something to welcome. It is not only possible to grow the economy while I take issue with the hon. Gentleman’s analysis of a tackling that inequality; it is absolutely imperative. The decade of lost opportunity. It is no coincidence that type of growth that is built on the backs of the poorest that decade has also seen Tory austerity writ large and a and most vulnerable, and that comes at the expense of financial crash caused by the previous Westminster the environment, is almost not worth having. 403WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 404WH

[Alison Thewliss] hostile environment created by a UK Government Home Office hellbent on reducing migration for no economic The OECD estimates that, between 1990 and 2010, purpose whatever.That includes the highly skilled migrants rising income inequality in the UK reduced our economic group, on behalf of which I have been campaigning. output per head by 9%. Inequality stunts economic They come here, pay taxes and have not taken a day’s growth, and Scotland is no exception. It is time to shift benefits in their life, yet the Government see fit to the focus of the debate away from short-term reckless deport them for making entirely legitimate changes to growth and towards a more sustainable model built on their tax returns. inclusion, dignity and respect. Economic choices are not just about the bottom line; they should reflect the Kirstene Hair (Angus) (Con): At the Home Affairs society that we want to live in. Committee yesterday, we had experts in. We questioned them on a separate immigration policy. They used the My colleagues in the Scottish Government have received word “shambles” directly to describe having a separate international attention for the work they have done so immigration policy in any region of the United Kingdom. far on inclusive growth. Putting that at the heart of our Does the hon. Lady agree that the SNP should maybe economic strategy has led to different outcomes in start listening to experts? We would then see the best Scotland. We want to make choices such as a Scottish outcomes for Scotland. national investment bank, and I am glad that the hon. Members for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) and for East Alison Thewliss: Coming from the party that regularly Renfrewshire (Paul Masterton) welcome that. The hon. likes to run down experts and their views, that is a bit Member for Stirling mentioned KfW,a bank in Germany rich. What is a shambles is the situation I see for my that I visited when I was on the Communities and Local constituents week in, week out. Their lives are made an Government Committee. It was set up as part of the absolute misery by the Home Office. My hon. Friend Marshall plan in 1945. We know that it works, but we the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch have never done the same for ourselves. It makes absolute East (Stuart C. McDonald) has been to Canada and sense for us to do that, and it is interesting that the hon. has spoken about how a differentiated immigration Gentleman looks to pinch the Scottish Government’s policy can work in practice. There is no reason why ideas for the UK. There should be more of that in Scotland cannot do that. future—why not? We are also researching a citizen’s basic income, and Christine Jardine: Will the hon. Lady give way? we invest in human capital by keeping university tuition Alison Thewliss: No, I am conscious of time, and I am free for all. We also pay better in Scotland. We have running out of it. It is estimated that each additional more living wage employers per head than anywhere EU migrant working in Scotland pays £10,400 in tax else in the UK, and we seek the real living wage, not the towards our NHS and other public services. The Fraser Tories’pretendy living wage, which has age discrimination of Allander Institute at the University of Strathclyde baked into it. Although the Labour party might wish to used advanced modelling techniques to estimate the have a £10 living wage, it did not give the Scottish impact of reduced migration after Brexit on Scotland’s Government power over that policy; we asked for the economy.In its Brexit scenario, aggregate GDP is 9% lower devolution of employment law, and it stood firmly by 2065, all other things held constant. against that. If there is one thing that is certain for Scotland after Like the rest of the UK, Scotland has an ageing Brexit, it is that all other things will not be held constant. population. It is great that people are living longer, but It is estimated by the Scottish Government that leaving it presents several challenges to our economy—not least the single market—a position backed by both the an increased old-age dependency ratio.With fewer working- Conservatives and Labour—will reduce output by 8.5% by age people in proportion to the number of older people, 2030, which is equivalent to a loss of £2,300 a year for tax revenues become lower and public spending on each person in Scotland. Of course, the UK Government pensions and healthcare becomes higher. That makes it do not agree with the figure, having conducted their more difficult to keep public finances stable for the own analysis of the impact of Brexit on Scotland’s future. There are two ways to improve the situation. economy. Their analysis presents an even worse scenario, One is to increase labour market participation, which with output reduced by 9% over the next 15 years. we are trying to do. We have created free childcare We are at a crucial point in determining the future of services, which are a known driver for getting women our economy. We have to take into account that we are into work. Increased female employment has also been having Brexit as a result of an internal debate within the linked to higher productivity, to economies that are Conservative party that got out of hand. Only one more resilient to recession, and to a multitude of party has a clear and meaningful vision for the future of improvements to health and wellbeing outcomes. Scotland’s economy: the SNP. We have looked at the The other way to protect our economy from the issue. We have the Sustainable Growth Commission, a problems arising from an ageing population is to increase suite of recommendations and a robust plan for the immigration. The Tories have stood against devolving type of Scotland we would like to see. The report calls immigration law to Scotland, despite our particular for more investment to grow Scotland’s economy by circumstances, which the hon. Member for Rutherglen increasing population, participation and productivity. and Hamilton West recognised in his speech. Immigration Some of that can be done now, but some of it cannot. law is a reserved matter. At constituency surgeries every We require cross-party support for some of the things single Friday, I see the impact of a Government keen to we want to see, whether that is devolving some of those decrease immigration and ignore the large net contribution powers to Scotland to let us get on with the job, or to our economy of those who choose to come and make whether it is independence, where we could have the full their home in Scotland. I see the devastating effects of a suite of powers without having one hand tied behind 405WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 406WH our back. Through that, we could make changes for the Scotland’s productivity ranks in the third quartile of benefit of all our population, not just the Tories and OECD countries, and the rate of productivity growth in their cronies. Scotland lags behind that of many of our competitors. To catch up, Scotland must expedite a significant increase 3.43 pm in its rate of productivity growth. Achieving the required growth would be truly transformational for the Scottish Mr Paul Sweeney (Glasgow North East) (Lab/Co-op): economy. Increasing Scotland’s productivity to the level It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the of the top quartile of OECD countries would grow first time, Mrs Main. I start by thanking my good friend GDP by almost £45 billion, which is an increase of 30%. and comrade, my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen Annual average wages would be more £6,500 higher, and Hamilton West (Ged Killen), for securing this which is an increase of 25%. That is the prize if we can debate and for making a speech that cut to the very address the structural problem. heart of the problems that will face the Scottish economy in the decades to come. Just 10 businesses in Scotland account for 45% of all private sector R&D activity in Scotland. Almost 70% of With the impending threat of Brexit and the threat of R&D investment is by non-Scottish-owned businesses. a second Scottish independence referendum always on Despite higher education R&D rates in Scotland being the horizon, it strikes me that once again people in among the highest in the world, we have seen a significant Scotland are caught in a vice between two Governments disconnect between academic innovation and its application who are absolutely intent on causing them economic by industry in Scotland. There is obvious potential to harm in pursuit of their own nationalist and constitutionally increase industrial interaction with higher education, driven agendas. We have seen that writ large today. It is and addressing that is a major focus of the innovation not about talking Scotland down. In fact, speeches centres, such as the advanced forming research centre, today have reflected the passion that Members have for that were set up by the last Labour Government. standing up for their constituents and their economic interests. My hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian Much work is still to be done. To match the rate of (Danielle Rowley) talked about the real issue of the the top quartile of OECD countries, business R&D massive job cuts her constituents face. Calling that investment in Scotland would need to be 90% higher—an “talking Scotland down”does a real disservice to Members increase of £10 billion a year. Companies that are in this Chamber. looking to grow are not considering external funding, and that raises questions about the level of growth People in Scotland have been let down on two counts ambition and whether ambitions can be achieved through over the past 10 years. First, a UK Government have internal funding alone.Poor competitiveness in productivity, taken the political choice—I emphasise that it is a innovation and capital investment also hinder the scope choice—to implement austerity. Secondly, a Scottish to drive export sales and grow overall industrial production. Government, rather than use the powers they have to Around 60% of Scottish small and medium-sized enterprises alleviate and mitigate those austerity measures, have trade only within Scotland. Scotland’s exports are also consistently chosen to use the Scottish Parliament as a highly concentrated. Just 15 businesses account for conveyor belt simply to pass that austerity on and, 30% of all international exports, and 70 firms account indeed, amplify it at the local government level. That is for 50%. Scotland’s key international export markets not what the Scottish Parliament was meant to be and remain Europe and the USA, with sales to emerging not what those of us on these Benches who fought long markets relatively low, and five sectors account for and hard for its creation envisaged. 50% of exports in Scotland. We envisaged a Parliament in Edinburgh that would Labour is absolutely committed to addressing the be a bulwark against Tory austerity, would stand up problems we see in our growth and productivity levels, and be counted and would chose a different path. not only in Scotland, but across the entirety of the UK. Trends show that the Scottish economy is lagging behind In our manifesto, we detailed the investment we would that of the rest of the UK in terms of growth, productivity make in economic development in the event of a and employment. In 2017, growth stood at just 0.8%, UK Labour Government. In Scotland, that would mean while the Scottish Fiscal Commission predicts that growth £70 billion over a 10-year period: £20 billion through will remain at less than 1% until 2024—something that our proposals to enhance the Scottish Investment Bank, the Fraser of Allander Institute has labelled as providing patient long-term finance to industry, which “unprecedented in a generation”. It is the slowest period the hon. Member for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) mentioned; of long-term growth in the Scottish economy in over 60 £20 billion through our national transformation fund; years. and £30 billion that Scotland would benefit from through I would of course like to caveat that with the fact that enhanced Barnett consequentials. If the hon. Gentleman statistics released this morning show that growth has is so enthusiastic about Labour policies, I encourage increased by 0.2% during the first quarter of 2018, him to consider crossing the Floor, instead of having to which is slightly higher than in the UK as a whole. That lobby his Ministers for the same policies. news is of course welcome, but I should like to think Scottish Labour has also committed to a proper that everyone in the room today would like to see industrial strategy, which has unfortunately been sorely improvement and would agree that the long-term growth lacking in the UK and Scottish Governments’ plans. trend remains insufficient. Productivity was mentioned Our industrial strategy would generate high-skilled, by several Members, and it has dropped by 2.2% in the high-quality, stable employment for men and women. It past year alone. It is a fundamental economic principle would encourage a diversification of ownership models that to generate economic growth, a country must increase and the governance of our industrial base, encourage productivity.Toincrease productivity, two very important and actively support the role of trade unions in the factors must be addressed: investment and an interventionist economy, and recognise and resource the critical role of industrial strategy. innovation in developing sectors of our economy. 407WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 408WH

[Mr Paul Sweeney] to ensure that Scotland’s economy and people do not suffer anymore due to the short-sighted nature of their Critical to all those pledges is the investment I current Governments. spoke about. We must recognise that the role of a Government is to be an enabler—part of a triple helix 3.52 pm of private entrepreneurs, research-led universities and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales an entrepreneurial state, assisting where there is potential (Stuart Andrew): It is a pleasure to serve under your to develop sectors, create new high-skilled, high-paid chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. Member jobs, and sustain and grow viable enterprises. for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Ged Killen) on We must never forget the human cost of failing to securing the debate. I am sorry that he is not as pleased address those issues, of a stagnating economy that to see me as I am to respond to the debate. I point out to results in unemployment, and of an economy that is him that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Moray propped up by low-skilled, low-paid jobs, meaning that (Douglas Ross) said, I am a UK Minister. I am proud of we have the scandalous situation in which 52% of all being part of a Unionist UK Government, and I will adults living in poverty in Scotland are in employment. work with my colleagues—and colleagues across the Whether people like it or not, it is a fact that the Floor—from Scotland just as much as I will work with UK economy is propped up by low-skilled, low-paid colleagues from Wales and, indeed, from my own jobs. The Office for National Statistics recently indicated constituency. that the number of zero-hours contracts has increased Mr Sweeney: Will the Minister give way? to 1.8 million. That is 1.8 million workers across the UK who do not know what their income will be from Stuart Andrew: No—I have very little time, in fairness, week to week. Is that really the way we want our and I want to get through quite a few of the points that economy to function—built on the back of low-paid have been raised. This has been a very good and lively and insecure work? debate. I said it was a pleasure to be here. At the beginning of it, I was thinking, “What have I walked That takes me back to the points I made about our into?” However, it is a pleasure. industrial strategy. We have been explicit in our desire to A fundamental change is going on in the global ban zero-hours contracts on the basis that they are economy that will throw up both opportunities and exploitative and ensure that our economy is skewed in challenges for Scotland and the rest of the UK. Automation, favour of big business while ordinary working people artificial intelligence, growing digital connectivity and suffer. If we were in any doubt about the truth of that, the need to deliver environmentally sustainable growth we need only to look at the Scottish Fiscal Commission’s will profoundly affect the way that we do business, how findings, which state that real wages are lower today businesses function and how people work. As we plan than they were in 2010 and are predicted to continue for Scotland’s economic future, the UK Government falling this year. It is simply not good enough. are confident that Scotland is well placed to take advantage While the UK Government and the Scottish Government of the changes that will affect the entire economy. bicker over constitutional intricacies, people are struggling Scotland is an open and enterprising nation, with some to feed their children. According to the Child Poverty of the best universities and research institutions in the Action Group, more than 230,000 children in Scotland world. As part of the UK, it has a global reputation for live in poverty. Just let that sink in for a second: one in welcoming businesses with high standards, respected every four children in Scotland is in poverty today. That institutions and a strong rule of law. should shame every single one of us. It is the job of Government to ensure that business is We are on the cusp of a great opportunity, with the ready to respond to change, and that is why we have fourth industrial revolution now under way. One of the created the industrial strategy,which is incredibly important. great achievements in Scotland under the last Labour Through the four grand challenges that we have identified, Government was to reverse Scotland’shistorical population the UK can become a global technological revolution decline, but there is so much more to do. We need to leader in clean growth, artificial intelligence and big enhance population growth in Scotland. In 1902, the data, the future of mobility, and meeting the needs of Scottish Registrar General predicted that by 1962 the an ageing society—something that the hon. Member Scottish population would be 10 million. Clearly we for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) rightly mentioned. never achieved that, so we have a great opportunity to In all those areas, Scotland can make a fantastic make up for lost ground. contribution. Edinburgh is becoming one of the UK’smost important clusters for AI and digital technology. My We are on the cusp of that opportunity. That is why I right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, am proud to stand here today as a Labour MP who can Energy and Industrial Strategy has announced an AI sector say that when there is a UK Labour Government and a deal, bringing around £1 billion of investment through Labour Government in Scotland we will address the public and industry funding. That will ensure that it is a inequalities in our society and the structural problems vibrant sector and has the resources and structures in that we have identified in today’s debate. It is time for place to survive. the UK Government and the Scottish Government to I am pleased that we have already made an stop burying their heads in the sand when it comes to announcement about the construction industry, which such issues purely because they are deemed too difficult the hon. Member for Midlothian (Danielle Rowley) to deal with. rightly highlighted. We will report back later in the year, We are ready to govern this country in a way that once all the details have been agreed. I am glad that she works for the many, not the few. If others are not, I have raised that. Equally, there is the food and drink sector, one message: call a general election and let us get on which the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton with it, because we are ready to invest in Scotland and West mentioned. 409WH Scottish Economy 27 JUNE 2018 Scottish Economy 410WH

I am conscious that time is going fast, and I want to wage packets. We have increased the minimum wage to respond to some of the issues that were raised. The hon. a living wage—from £5.80, as it was in 2010, to £7.83— Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West talked bringing £4,000 a year more to the lowest paid in the about a “third way”. We heard that before with the country. My hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and previous Labour Government, which landed us with a South Perthshire (Luke Graham) was right to show the £150 billion deficit. This Government have had to work differing figures, comparing the UK performance with hard to get that deficit down, which has not been easy. the Scottish performance. We on this side are determined The Opposition Front Bencher, the hon. Member for to work with the Scottish Government. My right hon. Glasgow North East (Mr Sweeney), said that those are Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland worked closely “choices”. It is the reality of ensuring that we have an with the former Economy Secretary in Scotland. That economy that is balanced and in which people have needs to continue. confidence, so that we can get the investment we need to Some of the comments that have been made today create the growth that has brought millions of new jobs are absolutely right. We have challenges ahead of us, for people in this country. We are seeing record levels of but we also have opportunities. As we can now develop employment. That is a record of which I am proud. trading agreements around the world, I want us to expand that for the whole of the UK, so that every part Mr Sweeney: Will the Minister give way? of the UK can benefit. Scotland is as important a part of this nation as any other. Stuart Andrew: No, I am not taking any interventions, As I said, the hon. Member for Midlothian was right because I am very conscious of time. to talk about the construction industry. She talked Brexit was also mentioned. I have heard it said time about overthrowing capitalism being a bigger issue. I and time again that the Government are hell bent on a would say that, yes, it certainly is—and one that would hard Brexit. If anything, we are hell bent on ensuring seriously damage the economy of this country. I hope that we get a deal that works for the UK and the EU. I that people will take note. have faith in my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. My hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) She has achieved agreements when the media and people talked about a UK investment bank. We are always open in this House thought that she could not. Let us have to positive proposals to support the economy. The faith in her and support her as she goes to the June UK Government will consider any such proposal, ensuring Council, and I am sure that we will have a Brexit deal that it offers value for money. I will ensure that I raise that will work. those points with colleagues in the Treasury following I agreed with what the hon. Member for Rutherglen today’s debate. and Hamilton West said about the deficit in Scotland. It The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch is concerning that as a share of GDP the deficit is and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) said that we were talking 8.3% in Scotland, compared with 2.4% for the rest of Scotland down. We are determined to ensure that our the UK. That needs to be addressed. Not dealing with economy works for every part of the UK, and we are the deficit really knocks confidence. People in business working with the oil and gas industry to ensure that will not be confident if it is not being dealt with there is a sector deal. In the last 10 seconds I have, I say properly. to the SNP that constant talk of independence does Wealso heard about low wages. I remind hon. Members nothing to give confidence to business to invest in that it was this Government that dealt with the personal the UK. allowance, which is benefiting some 2.5 million Scots’ Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). 411WH 27 JUNE 2018 BAME Blood, Stem Cell and Organ 412WH Donation BAME Blood, Stem Cell and Organ such as Cure Kaiya, which held an event in my constituency, Donation and Match4Rajie are encouraging more people from BAME backgrounds to become registered donors.

[SIR HENRY BELLINGHAM in the Chair] Mohammad Yasin: My hon. Friend makes a very important point. 4 pm In November, Poonam’s fundraising efforts were Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab): I beg to move, recognised when she was awarded individual fundraiser That this House has considered BAME blood, stem cell and of the year. I was so inspired by her story that I wanted organ donation. to help raise awareness of the issue in BAME communities, It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, because none of us know whether we or one of our Sir Henry. I first became aware of the issue of blood, loved ones might be a name on that list in need of a stem cell and organ donation within black, Asian, mixed match, desperately waiting for a lifesaving opportunity. race and minority ethnic communities when I met Poonam The reality is that many patients will not receive the Shah, who works in my constituency.Poonam’s husband, stem cell transplant they need, because either there is no Rakesh, died from a blood disorder at the age of just 35. donor available or a donor cannot be found quickly Due to Rakesh’s Indian heritage, he struggled to find a enough. Only 20% of BAME patients receive the best donor with the 10 matching genes that would have possible match, compared with 69% of white, northern helped ensure that his blood would accept the donor’s European patients. cells. Eventually, an anonymous donor with eight out of 10 matches was found from South Africa for Rakesh, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. who had a stem cell transplant in October 2014. Gentleman for bringing this matter forward. I have always supported the issue of organ transplants, including Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): I am very for BAME people. With only six out of every 100 people pleased that my hon. Friend has secured this important who have signed up to the NHS organ donor register debate. I should declare that I am chair of the all-party having told us that they are from black, Asian or parliamentary group on stem cell transplantation. My minority ethnic communities, does the hon. Gentleman hon. Friend makes a point that is particularly relevant feel as I feel that when it comes to organ donation, every for the BAME community—often the donor will come race is needed and we should urge the Minister to from outside the UK. There have been a number of respond with a focused campaign for BAME donation? cases where there have been difficulties with visas. Time That is the best way forward and I think the Minister is vital in this area and we need a fast-track process to needs to do that. make sure that those people can get here as quickly as possible. Mohammad Yasin: I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s Mohammad Yasin: My hon. Friend makes a very point. The disparity urgently needs to be addressed and good point. I recognise the work that he has done as the I therefore welcome the very timely review by my hon. chair of the APPG on stem cells. This is a very important Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West issue, and that is why we are having this debate today. (Eleanor Smith) on BAME stem cell and organ donation. The problem of insufficient blood, stem cell and Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I congratulate organ donation is fundamentally one of supply and my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Those from the demand. According to the review, fewer than 5% of BAME community make up 5% of blood donors, yet donors who gave blood in the past year were from they make up 14% of the population. The Imam Hussain BAME communities, although the BAME group makes Blood Donation Campaign was set up in my own city up around 14% of the total UK population. Currently, of Manchester; it has had a tremendous success rate of only 1% of people who give blood in England are black. 3,408 donations. To be successful, it is important to BAME people are unequally affected by that, as they ensure that cultural initiatives such as that are taken, so are subject to a higher demand and shorter supply than that we can carry on with improvements. If not, we will other groups. The most common blood diseases that carry on experiencing difficulties. affect BAME communities are thalassaemia and sickle Mohammad Yasin: My hon. Friend makes an important cell disease. point and I will refer to similar points later in my speech. Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): Sadly,despite receiving a transplant, Rakesh’scondition, I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this MDS, was so advanced that he died in December 2014, important debate. While we know that there are problems leaving Poonam and their two young children. After and that there is much still to do, will he join me in Rakesh’s death, Poonam decided to raise funds for congratulating Kanya King and the MOBO Awards on Anthony Nolan and raise awareness among people all the great campaigning work that they do to increase from south Asia and other ethnic minority backgrounds BAME blood and organ donation? They do an excellent about stem cell donations. job.Will he also join me in encouraging other organisations and companies with existing BAME reach to campaign Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): I thank in a similar manner? my hon. Friend for securing this debate. Does he agree that Health Ministers should work more closely with Mohammad Yasin: I agree with the hon. Lady. BAME grassroots and community organisations? Currently, donors make up 15% of the stem cell register; black donors donors from Asian or other minority ethnic backgrounds make up just 1.2% of potential donors on the British make up just 15% of the stem cell register, but campaigns Bone Marrow Registry. I hope the Minister shares my 413WH BAME Blood, Stem Cell and Organ 27 JUNE 2018 BAME Blood, Stem Cell and Organ 414WH Donation Donation concerns about those statistics and that she will commit charity DKMS, to help Kaiya Patel, a five-year-old girl today to agreeing in full to the recommendations of the who I understand is still waiting for a lifesaving match review by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton for her rare and aggressive form of leukaemia. I know South West. that similar drives are taking place around the country, but this is a race against time. It has been reported that, Eleanor Smith (Wolverhampton South West) (Lab): I to have a chance, Kaiya needs a transplant within the thank my hon. Friend for securing this timely debate. next two months. My review, “Ending the Silent Crisis”, is about the lack There is a strong will out there to increase the life of stem cell and organ donation in black and minority chances of people from a BAME background. I hope ethnic groups. I hope that the Minister will look at the that this timely review, which highlights the scale of this review’s recommendations, take them on board and silent crisis, is enough to spur the Government into come back to us on them. assisting communities with a more co-ordinated approach. Mohammad Yasin: I thank my hon. Friend for her This blatant inequality must end. hard work on the review and I look forward to working 4.13 pm together on the issue. It is clear that increasing the number of BAME stem Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): It is a cell donors requires a many-sided approach, but one of pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Henry. the most important things that can be done is to integrate I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford information about donation into the formal curriculum, (Mohammad Yasin) for securing this debate on an issue which the review recommends. We already know that that is so important to my constituents in Hampstead education works. For example, Anthony Nolan and and Kilburn. I will speak briefly. other blood disorder charities have had great success More than 2,000 incredible people from Hampstead working with schools, universities and colleges across and Kilburn are on the Anthony Nolan stem cell register, the UK. Just last month, I wrote a letter to all schools a large proportion of whom are from BAME backgrounds. with a sixth form in or near my constituency to ask I mention that fact because, as Members from across whether they would consider using an assembly or the House have said, only 20% of patients from BAME personal, social, health and economic lessons to teach backgrounds will get a perfect match, compared with students about the importance of donating stem cells, 69% of people from white northern European backgrounds. blood and organs. I am delighted that one of the schools has already agreed to do so. Colleen Fletcher (Coventry North East) (Lab): I declare an interest: my husband had a stem cell transplant three Since the Hero Project started in 2009, more than years ago. His donor came from this country. Does my 32,000 people have signed up to the Anthony Nolan hon. Friend agree that, if we are to meet the needs of stem cell donor register, and approximately 16% of BAME patients who require a stem cell transplant, we them are from a BAME background. The Hero Project must work with international registers? Increasing BAME recognises that the different religious views about organ donation in the UK alone is not enough. Some 60% of donation are one of the barriers preventing people from UK patients already receive stem cell transplants from signing up to the organ donation register. Anthony international donors. That is made possible by Anthony Nolan and other blood disorder charities recognise and Nolan’s incredible volunteer couriers, who collect donated respect those diverse views and tailor their message to stem cells around the world and transport them to suit different interpretations of faith. They focus on patients. I hope the Minister will explain what steps the what people can do to help, not on what they cannot do. Government will take to support international registers. The review found that the three main barriers that prevent people from signing up are a lack of knowledge Tulip Siddiq: My hon. Friend has stolen one of the or awareness, religious permissibility and a lack of trust questions I was going to ask the Minister, but I will in medical institutions. The opt-out system for organ forgive her. and tissue donation, with additional safeguards, is welcome, In 2016, a young woman in my constituency called but there must be an awareness campaign that is mindful Lara, who was 27 years old and from a BAME background, of the cultural sensitivities relating to organ donation needed a stem cell donor. The constituency snapped and addresses the significant pressure on NHS Blood into action and organised the Match4Lara campaign. and Transplant’s capacity to accommodate any rise in Elana Wall and Jacob Haddad, the volunteer co-ordinators organ donations. for Anthony Nolan, co-ordinated 40 volunteers who It is vital that we get more young people from spent their evenings packing spit kits and organising BAME backgrounds, such as students, to sign up to the spit drives and spit drive socials. I went to a spit drive in stem cell donor register, because the research shows that the O2 Centre on Finchley Road, and I was impressed the younger the donor, the more likely the patient is to by the enthusiasm of the youngsters—especially those survive. What steps will the Minister take to ensure that from a BAME background—who realised that if they all students aged 16 and above have the opportunity to took the spit test on the spot, there was a chance they learn about the importance of donating stem cells, blood could save a life. My younger sister, Azmina, participated and organs? There is a real desire in the BAME community and said that she found the science very accessible. She —especially among the younger generation—to turn understood that she needed to raise awareness of the this issue around. issue among young people. She has recently had a call I was touched by the action of the Bandhan Bedford to say that she could be a potential match for a patient. Group, a group of Asian professional women in my Will the Minister address the request to integrate constituency who helped to add 300 new names to the awareness-raising into the school curriculum? Will she stem cell register. They organised a stem cell drive this talk about how the Department of Health and Social month in Bedford, with support from the blood cancer Care can work with international donor banks? That 415WH BAME Blood, Stem Cell and Organ 27 JUNE 2018 BAME Blood, Stem Cell and Organ 416WH Donation Donation [Tulip Siddiq] I am particularly moved to be having this debate today because only this weekend I lost a very good issue has been raised a few times already. How does she friend of mine to lymphoma at the age of 47. That intend to spread the word about stem cell donation brings home how cancer and illness can kill people at a among young people, especially those from BAME very young age. It will be in honour of my dear friend backgrounds? David Furze that I will do something to reboot stem cell donation. 4.16 pm On the barriers to more donation, some have serious The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health concerns about faith and religious beliefs. Tackling and Social Care (Jackie Doyle-Price): It is a pleasure to those concerns is a big challenge for us in Government, serve under your chairmanship, Sir Henry. I thank the because of the element of trust. The hon. Member for hon. Member for Bedford (Mohammad Yasin) for securing Bedford mentioned that quite often people do not trust this important debate on an issue that has been exercising medical professionals, but they trust Government even me for the past year. Since I became Minister with less. We must find innovative ways of getting that responsibility for this area, the disparity in access for message out. We need the right messengers. Dare I say, people from black and minority ethnic communities to the people in this Chamber are among the right messengers? blood, organs and stem cells has been of great concern Most of us have respect in our communities and are to me. I have been working with NHSBT on this theme able to show leadership in our communities. We can go for the past year, and I hope I can give the hon. out, speak, raise awareness and encourage donation. I Gentleman some comfort. We are making some progress, have given NHSBT the challenge to do exactly that. but I want to assure all hon. Members that I am under no illusions about how big this challenge is, for a host of Eleanor Smith: Other organisations are also trying to reasons that I will come on to. do that, such as the African Caribbean Leukaemia I thank the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South Trust, but they get very limited resources. One of my West (Eleanor Smith) for being here. I read her report recommendations is about sharing resources with groups with interest and agreed with every word. The principles that are already organised and going out to the community, she articulated are key to increasing donation. If I were because with limited resources they can do very little. to highlight one particular issue, it would be the culture of normalising donation in those communities. The Jackie Doyle-Price: The NHSBT strategy has that in hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) mind. Recently, we had a faith summit where we worked has just given a beautiful example of how local leadership with the individuals who are able to go out and give can do that, and that is something we can all take away. those messages. The approach must be organic. I have Whenever we debate a subject like organ and blood also tasked NHSBT to work with me to develop an donation, everyone brings their own personal story, MP’s toolkit to help us to go out in our constituencies because we have all been touched by people who have and develop the right networks and links. The hon. needed a transplant. That is what brings the issue alive Lady is right to say that people from these communities for us; it is about saving lives. will listen to their elders and other representatives, and My overall objective is to increase the rate of donation that is why we need to work through those people. We across the board. Although it is true that a person is are doing that with a number of organisations. more likely to die waiting for a transplant if they are Turning to stem cell donation, all hon. Members from a black and minority ethnic community, the fact is articulated beautifully the real disparity of access to that we are losing too many people who are waiting for appropriate treatment. It is only by building and diversifying a transplant. We need a concerted effort to improve the the UK stem cell register that we will be able to provide the rate of donation from all parts of our society. There is best match for patients. Hon. Members have raised the much we can do to achieve that. Hon. Members will be issue of an international register; the Department aware of the private Member’s Bill from the hon. Member funds Anthony Nolan’s efforts in this area. Members for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), which seeks of the World Marrow Donor Association already to change the opt-out system. It will be a big help, but it promote global collaboration. Wewill continue to support will not solve the problem by itself. There is a lot more that as best we can, working with Anthony Nolan and we need to do to educate the public about the importance NHSBT. of donation and to dispel the fears and myths about it. NHSBT continues to grow both its cord blood banks Colleen Fletcher: The Minister mentioned the private and bone marrow donor registers, with the explicit Member’s Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for intent of increasing the number of black and Asian Coventry North West (Mr Robinson). I hope she is donors. Overall, we have paid more than £20 million to aware that stem cell transplantation is very much done NHSBT and Anthony Nolan specifically for stem cell when the person is alive, which is what makes it so easy. donation since 2015. So far, we have made some progress People do not have to die to donate. I just want to make in increasing donations from black, Asian and minority sure people listening to this debate know that. ethnic backgrounds, but not nearly enough to address the disparity. We will all continue to make our efforts Jackie Doyle-Price: That is a point well made. It is count in that area. the same for blood, of course—donors do not have to I pay tribute to the initiative of the Bandhan Bedford die to give blood. People who give blood do so regularly Group that the hon. Member for Bedford mentioned. If because they get into the habit and it has become there is a good local champion that captures local normal. Perhaps we need to do a lot more about stem imagination, real progress can be made. We all need to cell transplants. encourage those sorts of activities. 417WH BAME Blood, Stem Cell and Organ 27 JUNE 2018 BAME Blood, Stem Cell and Organ 418WH Donation Donation Turning to blood, there is a real need for black We estimate that if the private Member’s Bill from donors and donors from the Asian community to increase the hon. Member for Coventry North West successfully supplies, not least because they are more likely to suffer passes through Parliament, it will save an additional fromdiseasesthatwillrequirebloodtransfusions,specifically 200 lives a year. That is not to be sniffed at. As a Health sickle cell anaemia. We are undertaking initiatives to Minister, I would be failing in my duty if I did not do increase the number of black and Asian blood donors. everything I possibly could to secure the passage of that Weare holding “know your type”events in high population Bill, and I will do that. But that does not alter the fact areas, where people can learn their blood type with a that we still need more black and Asian people to agree finger prick test. That will help NHSBT to manage its to go on the register. We are working on a number of blood stocks and develop a database of exactly the type tools to address people’s real concerns, whether they are of blood that there is a shortage of. about faith, belief or heritage. We need to be able to We are supporting others, such as the music of black produce materials that attack misconceptions but do so origin awards, to reach audiences. Those who watch in an extremely sensitive way to those who will react to “Britain’s Got Talent”—I watch it—will have seen the them. B Positive choir, who did so much to raise awareness Again, I encourage all Members to get involved in and were absolutely fantastic. helping us to develop those tools and in spreading those messages as best they can. We have a library of resources Mr Dhesi: In terms of outreach work, whether with that are specifically tailored to particular communities, the MOBO awards or otherwise, can the Minister outline but I am always open to any suggestions for what more the steps that have been taken to reach out via the we can do, because ultimately this is a very serious media? I am not just referring to the national media but injustice that we need to tackle. I have a very large black the culturally specific and ethnic media, which have a African Christian community in my constituency, so I greater outreach in those ethnic minority communities. am used to engaging with them, having these debates and encouraging them to sign up to the register. We can Jackie Doyle-Price: The hon. Gentleman makes a all do that. good point. I could not give him a definitive answer at this moment in time. I would expect NHSBT to be I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Bedford using those outlets to spread the message. If it is not, I and to all hon. Members who have shown support for will make sure it does, but I will ask that question and I this debate. I am under no illusion about the challenge will write to him with a fuller answer. here, but I am very heartened to see that so many Turning to organs, we have discussed that there are Members recognise that this is a problem and are taking around 6,000 people waiting for an organ transplant, of positive steps to do something about it. Those are the whom 34% are from a black or Asian background. That ingredients for success, but I will not be complacent—this illustrates the disparity, given that only 6% of deceased is a tough one for us to tackle. I thank all donors, donors were from those backgrounds. There is a real whether of blood, stem cells or organs, for everything challenge to ensure that we are able to save all the lives that they have done to save people’s lives. we can through transplant. We have a big campaign designed to improve the rates of organ donation. Question put and agreed to. 419WH 27 JUNE 2018 British Flora: Protection from 420WH Imported Diseases British Flora: Protection from 7.5 cm in diameter…confirms that the 1.9 million figure represents only larger trees, and that the true number of non-woodland ash Imported Diseases in the county is much greater.” 4.30 pm Finally, sweet chestnut blight was discovered in Devon Sir Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con): I beg to move, in December 2016. It is a plant disease caused by the That this House has considered the protection of British flora ascomycete fungus, which causes death and dieback in from imported diseases. sweet chestnut plants. Restrictions are in place in Devon It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, on the movement of sweet chestnut material. Sir Henry. I am extremely grateful to have been granted this debate, particularly as this is such a pertinent issue; All of that comes on the back of the change to our the Forestry Commission recently stated: landscape. We all remember the devastation that Dutch elm disease caused to the English countryside in the late “The threat to our forests and woodlands has never been greater.” 1960s and 1970s. That in turn preceded the unprecedented My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and storm of 1987, which uprooted and killed so much former Mayor of London pledged that 2 million trees woodland. It is unthinkable that we might lose any would be planted in London between 2009 and 2025. more of our flora. Act we must. By 2012, I understand only 100,000 had been planted. However, we must give the Government credit here. The current Mayor, Sadiq Khan, promised before his The Minister will make his remarks later, but I welcome election in May 2016 to plant 2 million trees in his first some of the actions taken by the Government and his term, but for some unknown and unwise reason, he Department, not least under the stewardship of my former abandoned that policy just five months later, in October boss in the Northern Ireland Office, my right hon. Friend 2016. Can the Minister cast light on any of that? Can the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), when any pressure be brought to bear on all our city mayors he was Secretary of State for Environment, Food and to plant more trees? Should that not form part of the Rural Affairs. I am extremely pleased to see him in his Government’s plans to tackle pollution, particularly in place. I believe he intends to catch your eye later, our inner cities? Sir Henry. UK imports of live plants have increased by 71% since The appointment in 2014 of Professor Nicola Spence 1999. There are now more than 1,000 pests and diseases as a chief plant health officer was a huge step forward. on the UK plant health register. The Royal Horticultural She has invested £4.5 million in new patrols and inspectors, Society has, however, clamped down on imports. All which hopefully will stem the flow of diseases entering imported semi-mature trees will be held in isolation for the United Kingdom. I also very much welcome the 12 months before they are planted at RHS gardens and appointment this month of Sir William Worsley as the shows, and evaluation of plant health risk will be Government’s tree champion. That appointment meets incorporated into judging criteria at RHS flower shows. one of the key commitments in the Government’s 25-year Services relating to our almost 9.3 million acres of environment plan. forests, woodlands and other trees are estimated to have an annual value of £44.9 billion to the UK economy. Sir William’s task of driving forward planting rates Such services include wood processing, recreation and will help raise awareness of the impact our flora have on landscaping, as well as biodiversity. our planet. Such action by Government will teach us all In my part of the world, the beautiful county of further about the impact that diseases have on our Devon in south-west England, a number of diseases environment and our economy. When the Minister gets have already been found in trees, including phytophthora to his feet, I hope he will confirm that Sir William will ramorum, a fungus-like pathogen called a water be fully resourced—or is he to be just another Government mould, which has infected large trees widely grown in tsar with no power? How will his success be measured? the UK for the timber market and rhododendrons. Will he have full access to Ministers? I hope to hear Phytophthora ramorum causes extensive damage and positive answers to those key questions on the role of death to a large number of trees and other plants. our excellent new tree champion. Red band needle blight, which particularly affects the I also very much welcome the work of the Action Corsican pine, is found in most parts of the UK. A Oak partnership, supported by His Royal Highness the five-year moratorium on the planting of the species has Prince of Wales, a man who is always ahead of the curve been established for Forestry Commission plantations. on all matters environmental. The partnership will, among Here I pay tribute to a fellow Devonian, Sir Harry other things, fund research to improve the understanding Studholme, who does such important work as chairman of the threats to our oak trees and inform best management of the Forestry Commission. practices.I understand that it is looking to raise £15 million. Ash dieback is an extremely serious disease of ash Can the Minister confirm how much has been raised trees caused by a fungus. It causes wilting leaves and since its launch at last year’s Chelsea flower show and crown dieback, most usually leading to tree death. Ash say whether the Government will make a financial dieback was discovered in Devon by the county council, contribution to that important project? and in February 2016, Natural Devon published a strategy entitled, “Devon ash dieback action plan: an One of the common threats is xylella from continental overarching plan to identify and address the risks of Europe. I pay tribute to Country Life magazine and the ash dieback disease in Devon.” The plan states that RHS for bringing it to my attention. Xylella has not yet there are more than 1.9 million ash trees in Devon, and reached our shores, but it could pose a severe threat to goes on to say: our flora if it does. It was found in the United States, “Today we probably have more such trees because many hedges Taiwan and Italy, where it has destroyed olive groves in have been permitted to develop into tree lines. The 2012 estimate the southern part of the country.Subsequently,it has been of nearly half a million roadside ash trees bigger than about discovered in Spain, Germany and France, along with 421WH British Flora: Protection from 27 JUNE 2018 British Flora: Protection from 422WH Imported Diseases Imported Diseases some of the Baltic states. According to Mark Griffiths many of the trees, shrubs and plants that we have come in Country Life, the EU’s reaction to xylella has been to know and love. However, I believe that we have a real “authoritarian”; its vectors have been chance to deliver a green Brexit by ensuring that trading “subjected to mass insecticide, an action that has turned plant incentives are used to improve biosecurity in trade, disease into an ecological disaster”, including green trade deals. We have a chance to be a through a policy of fighting the disease by eradicating pioneering force in having the greenest possible free everything that might possibly succumb to it. trade deals, and I hope the Minister will have a positive view of that suggestion. Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con): Does my right I commend the millennium seed bank at the royal hon. Friend agree that the reasons for many of these botanic gardens, Kew, which achieved its initial aim of diseases reaching us are twofold: climate change and the storing seeds from all the UK’s native plant species in movement of people? Her Majesty’s Government should 2009, making Britain the first country in the world to understand that it is in our economic, social and have preserved its botanical heritage. The current phase environmental interest to have as much early warning as of the millennium seed bank project is to conserve a possible of such diseases moving up through Europe. quarter of the world’s plant species by 2020. I hope that Does he agree that we should require our embassies and the Commonwealth, and in particular the Queen’s other agencies to give much earlier warnings as diseases Commonwealth canopy,will help with the project through approach, so that we on these islands can develop their extensive global contacts, and that the British strategies to tackle them before they get here? Government will support those efforts. Sir Hugo Swire: My right hon. Friend is precisely My hon. Friend the Minister, who represents another right. Forewarned is forearmed, and the more we can wonderful constituency in the south-west, a bit further publicise these impending diseases coming to our islands, to the west than mine, will be aware that I always the better. He will acknowledge, as a former Environment approach these debates with a shopping list. I have Minister, that in some respects the problem is already some key asks of him this afternoon, which I hope he here. It is about how we stop it from spreading and try will address. I welcome the Government’s announcement to contain it where we can. He has a record second to of £37 million in funding through the tree health resilience none on environmental matters, and I am extremely strategy. However, how will it be divided up? How much pleased that he is here and taking an interest in the of that money will go to the new tree champion? debate. Will the Minister commit to tightening up and enforcing This rather follows on from what my right hon. more strongly the rules concerning which plant materials Friend said: there have been reports that if the British can be imported into the UK from the EU and further Government were presented with the problem of xylella, afield, and how will that be affected once we leave the they would destroy not only the infected plant, but all European Union in March 2019? Could biosecurity be plants within a 100-metre radius. I am concerned that incorporated into any transition deal that the Government that would amount to uprooting parks, gardens and the agree with Europe? Further to the remarks by my right greenery of entire neighbourhoods. I would appreciate hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), it if the Minister could confirm what action the Government what instructions can be issued to our embassies and high would take in the event of a xylella outbreak in the UK, commissions around the world to identify the threats to and what precautions he is taking to prevent such an the United Kingdom, and some of those plants and outbreak. trees, to prevent people from trying to export them to the UK? As in many of our discussions nowadays, the I am much heartened by the House of Lords EU Energy Commonwealth has its part to play, with the invention and Environment Sub-Committee’s inquiry on plant of the Queen’s Commonwealth canopy. That initiative, and animal biosecurity after Brexit. Will the Government which aims to involve all 53 Commonwealth countries implement the Committee’s recommendations when the and was first conceived by, among others, the right hon. report is published, if they are in line with the stated Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field), will hopefully ambition under the 25-year environment strategy and save one of the world’s most important natural habitats, the tree health resilience strategy? forests. Three UK projects are involved: Epping forest, Wentwood in Wales and the national forest, which I could go on much longer on this extraordinary covers parts of Derbyshire,Leicestershire and Staffordshire. subject, but those with greater knowledge of the subject Those of us who saw it enjoyed the ITV documentary in wish to contribute to the debate. I will conclude by saying April, “The Queen’s Green Planet”, with the legendary that many of us spend our recreational time walking the Sir David Attenborough, in which Her Majesty the British countryside. It is the envy of the world. How Queen and Sir David discussed the importance of the distraught would we be if it were to be further decimated Queen’s Commonwealth canopy. I particularly look by diseases that killed our flora? I call on us all to act forward to planting a tree in the name of the canopy in now to protect our green and pleasant land. Devon in the near future. Will the Minister say what the British Government are doing to raise awareness of and 4.44 pm support this Commonwealth initiative? Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): It is a That leads me on to the defining issue that the United pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Henry, Kingdom faces: leaving the European Union. I am well and a great honour to follow my ex-Minister of State in aware that there is a small amount of irony in the fact Northern Ireland, my right hon. Friend the Member for that while this debate is about indigenous British flora, East Devon (Sir Hugo Swire). We worked very closely many trees and plants in this country are not originally together. He made a fine speech, and I congratulate him from these shores.Indeed, without our great plant-gatherers on bringing this important issue before us. I put on the of the 18th and 19th centuries, we would not be enjoying record that I am delighted that the Minister for Agriculture, 423WH British Flora: Protection from 27 JUNE 2018 British Flora: Protection from 424WH Imported Diseases Imported Diseases [Mr Owen Paterson] Are there still monthly meetings at DEFRA? I chaired meetings with my chief vet and the newly appointed Fisheries and Food will answer the debate. He also served chief plant health officer at which we monitored all under me, as did my right hon. Friend the Member for diseases coming towards this country, and those that Newbury (Richard Benyon), who was a junior Minister were already here, which my right hon. Friend the while I was at the Department for Environment, Food Member for East Devon has rightly mentioned. Those and Rural Affairs. I am among friends. were really valuable meetings. When I came to DEFRA, I set the Department The other key recommendation, which we adopted four simple priorities over a kaleidoscopic variety of very early on after receiving the taskforce’s interim responsibilities. The first was to grow the rural economy. report, was to appoint a chief plant health officer; as I The second was to improve the environment—not protect said, we had a chief vet but not an equivalent in plant it, but improve it. The third was to protect the country health. We rapidly appointed Professor Nicola Spence. from animal disease. The fourth, which is relevant to the She had been a visiting professor at Harper Adams debate, was to protect the country from plant disease. University, which is near my constituency, and is very Little did I know when I came to DEFRA what I was distinguished. We put her in post, and I remember our about to walk into. benefiting very quickly: as soon as she was appointed, Back in 1992, Chalara fraxinea had been found in Poland there was a case of a shipment of, I think, heavy and was decimating ash trees there. It later struck me— electrical plant cables from Turkey. The dunnage—the my right hon. Friend the Member for Newbury made a wooden packing—was infested with some form of insect pertinent observation on this—how extraordinary it that was very unwelcome in this country. Professor was that our embassies and consulates were not reading Spence asked what to do, and I told her to send it back. horticultural magazines and reporting back. If we had We sent it back, which I said would send a striking known then what was about to come to us, we could lesson to the whole industry that, now that she had been possibly have done more about it. appointed, I would back her all the way. However, this terrible disease, which will ravage the That is why the monthly meetings were really important. 80 million-odd ash trees in this country, came west, We would discuss these individual cases, and sightings probably not helped by the foolish practice of sending of diseases—both plant and animal—in distant countries seedlings to Holland and then bringing them back as and here. I would like reassurances that those meetings whips and saplings to grow into full trees here. Shortly are going on. before I went to DEFRA, the disease was found in a nursery in Buckinghamshire during a routine inspection We also talked about getting much better intelligence. by the Food and Environment Research Agency, and by That was one of the key recommendations. On that the autumn, shortly after I took over, we were in a front, I went to Russia, primarily to promote exports at full-blooded crisis, in which we were trying to handle a big Russian food exhibition. I visited the really interesting the issue. and top-class Russian institute for plant health, which had amazing, state-of-the-art facilities. We agreed with We saw immediately that the disease had clearly the Minister that we would have regular meetings of followed the Schmallenberg virus, which had blown in, scientists and, once a year, a ministerial meeting. Many according to the maps, to the eastern tip of Kent and of of these diseases have come from east to west, Chalara East Anglia. However—this was unprecedented for being the most obvious one. It would be nice to know DEFRA—we then had a most extraordinary exercise in that we have kept up those meetings. which, over a week, we mapped the whole country, with amazing co-operation from the public and voluntary While we were in Moscow, Martin Ward, who was organisations and the devolved Administrations in Wales, chief plant officer at DEFRA, was elected chairman of Scotland and Northern Ireland. I also very much pay the European and Mediterranean Plant Protection tribute to the Republic of Ireland, which played a part Organisation, on which there are 50 countries; it goes in this. We established spots of Chalara infection where well beyond the EU. I would like to know what our trees had quite clearly been unwisely brought in from contacts are with that organisation, because I thought the continent. That immediately set in train the need to that was a thoroughly worthwhile body to be part of set about doing something. and keep beefed-up. Martin Ward was a key man when It seemed crazy to me that we had a chief vet, but did he was in DEFRA and did a great job. I hoped that we not really have anyone in charge of tree and plant would pick up a lot more intelligence there about where health, so I commissioned Professor Chris Gilligan, the diseases were coming from. We were going to look professor of mathematical biology and head of the at procedures for preparedness. For instance, we planted school of biological sciences at the University of Cambridge, 250,000 saplings to stake out and see where there might be to chair the tree health and plant biosecurity expert resistance to Chalara; we found that that was in a tiny taskforce, which we set up—all helped by Professor percentage of trees. The tragedy of all that was that we Boyd, the chief scientist at DEFRA. The taskforce could have done so much work, if we had known back produced a really good report. in 1992 that this disease was out there. I would like to know what other programmes DEFRA has embarked My speech will be quite brief, because I would really on. like the Minister to reply—I tipped him off about this yesterday—on how many of the report’s key points There was going to be much tighter protection of have been implemented. The taskforce’s final report borders. Around the same time, I went to Australia and came out in May 2013, and DEFRA produced a plant New Zealand. I was absolutely stunned by the incredibly biosecurity strategy in April 2014 that adopted nearly vigorous measures taken there. I remember seeing second- all the key recommendations, the first of which was to hand JCBs being stripped down and steam-cleaned at set up a UK risk register. Sydney port before being allowed entry. No mud or 425WH British Flora: Protection from 27 JUNE 2018 British Flora: Protection from 426WH Imported Diseases Imported Diseases dust was allowed in. In New Zealand, I saw intelligence- Sir Henry Bellingham (in the Chair): I plan to start based monitoring of every single passenger at the airport. the wind-ups at five past five, which leaves us exactly Everyone was monitored. There were sniffer dogs and 10 minutes. I would be grateful if the hon. Member for x-ray machines. There were amnesty bins with warnings Strangford (Jim Shannon) and the right hon. Member for anyone who had a sandwich or an apple. It was for Newbury (Richard Benyon) would split the time made absolutely clear on the aeroplane that we were not between them. allowed to bring plant or animal products into either of those two countries. 4.56 pm I noted that Heathrow had virtually no notices and Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I will adhere to the no alerts on the plane. Changing that would not have five-minute limit, Sir Henry. First, I congratulate the been an expensive exercise, and we set that in train when right hon. Member for East Devon (Sir Hugo Swire) on I was at DEFRA. I would like to know how we are presenting the case so well. He said others with expertise getting on there. We agreed to give passengers far more would speak after him, but he spoke at the beginning early warning that they should not bring these products with a lot of expertise, as did the right hon. Member for in, and to print leaflets in various languages, with an North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), and we appreciate easily communicable message, for passengers coming that. I have not held any of the positions that the right in. I would like to know what we are doing at borders, hon. Gentlemen used to hold, but I come as an MP from because there is so much we could learn from countries Northern Ireland, so perhaps that gets me into the club. such as Australia and New Zealand. I am not sure whether it does or not, but there we are. It With Brexit, we will have a wonderful opportunity. is always a pleasure to speak on these issues. In his Everybody talks about human movement at the borders; introduction, the right hon. Member for East Devon what about the movement of plants, both healthy and referred to the beauty of his constituency, but my unhealthy? The European Union assumes that all plants constituency of Strangford, which the right hon. Gentleman are healthy, but sadly they are not. I have had meetings has visited on numerous occasions, is equal to his, if not with Matt Shardlow of Buglife, which does splendid better. work on this. He reckons that invasive, non-native species The issue of protection for our habitats is something are costing the UK economy £1.7 billion every year, that I have a great interest in. Whenever I get off the which is shocking. There is a particularly disgusting plane from Heathrow to Belfast City, the advertising on invader called the Obama flatworm, an invasive flatworm the walls clearly states, “No plants and no food”. It is from Brazil. It is already a threat in France, and one has very strict. That is what we see displayed at Belfast been found in a pot plant in a garden centre in Oxfordshire. International airport, Belfast City airport and also It was originally imported from the Netherlands. Londonderry airport, so it is clear that we have a policy As you know, Sir Henry, you will not find anyone in in place. the House of Commons more in favour of free trade On my farm I have planted some 3,500 trees and than me, but we need free trade in healthy products. created duck ponds. My sons and I are fastidious about Interestingly, in its latest publication, Buglife goes so far pest control to encourage a thriving fauna haven, and I as to say that we should ban all pot plant imports, am not alone, as many country sports enthusiasts have which would be a very strong measure. In DEFRA, we the same passion for conservation and the issue of were looking at much more vigorous quarantining. protection, as does the right hon. Gentleman. I was Some of these imports are mad; for example, bringing pleased to learn that there would be tighter controls on from south-east Asia a reasonably mature tree with half importing plants to prevent pests and diseases from a tonne of earth on it is just inviting trouble. Even the damaging our native trees. The right hon. Gentleman smallest pot plants can include a few eggs. We were has said that, and I will say it from a Northern Ireland going to look at longer quarantine periods, so that the perspective. bugs could incubate, and then have much more vigorous We have had numerous ash dieback outbreaks in measures for sending them back. We will be able to do Northern Ireland, some in my constituency.In Ballywalter, that after Brexit. We will be able to run and control our not too far away, Lord Dunleath’s estate has had an own borders. outbreak in the past. Oak and ash trees are among the I hope that the UK will become a haven for healthy species at risk from imported diseases and pests such as plant products. I want to say the British Isles, because xylella and the emerald ash borer beetle. Xylella was first we worked extremely closely with the Government of detected in 2013 when it destroyed olive trees in southern the Republic of Ireland. They were really co-operative, Italy. It spread to France, Spain and Mediterranean and they have a massive interest: think of the tragedy of islands. It could arrive in Britain in imported plants the decimation of ash populations across northern Europe. such as rosemary, lavender, olives, oleander and almond. I had hoped we could begin to develop healthy plants In my constituency, Japanese knotweed is a major and repopulate. We could be a reservoir of healthy issue with people not understanding that trying to pull plants that could be used to repopulate parts of Europe it out or cut it down merely spreads the problem. We that had been blighted. must do more to educate people about the dangers of Other Members want to speak, and we very much dealing with foreign plants, along with our own. Although want to hear from the Minister. I would like a résumé of the nurturing of Japanese bonsai trees for 50 years is a where we are up to. Lastly, we promised we would lovely thought, try dealing with Japanese knotweed that increase skills and get more people interested in this attacks plants and undermines the very foundations of area, and in training in plant diseases; we were going to homes and buildings throughout the Province. Japanese put more money into that. I heartily congratulate my knotweed has become a real problem in my constituency right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon on this around some of the houses, and land has been blighted. debate on a really worthwhile subject. An area in the centre of Newtownards cannot be developed 427WH British Flora: Protection from 27 JUNE 2018 British Flora: Protection from 428WH Imported Diseases Imported Diseases [Jim Shannon] campaign to attack the invasive species and the diseases that are coming to this country, and you have to wise up for six years because of the presence of Japanese knotweed. to it.” They were quite shocked, but I was in turn quite Weed killing has been undertaken, but a period of time shocked at their lack of biosecurity over decades, at the has to be allowed to make sure that the incubation has failure of Governments over decades to implement not arisen again. proper biosecurity, and how we were happy to import When I tried to help a constituent address their nearly all the stock of young trees of certain species that knotweed issue, I ran into problem after problem with we were planting. Government Departments unwilling to step in and stop As my right hon. Friend said, we have followed the the spread. Instead of one garden being sprayed by a progression of Chalara as, like Schmallenberg disease specialist at the right time of year for the prescribed and blue tongue, it has progressed across the country. time, a row of houses is now literally infested and losing At the weekend, I was looking at a wood in Berkshire their plants, and possibly their foundations. We were and I estimated that about one third of the canopy was told that the weed killer was reasonably priced and the ash, and that will be gone in a very short space of time. constituent could do the job themselves, but that did We can learn from this. We can prevent other diseases not really work. Weneed a targeted effort from Government that could be devastating to the remaining stock of Departments and the local councils to address the diseases trees and plants, if we learn from our mistakes in the and stop them destroying our beautiful UK. past. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon I want to ask the Minister a quick question. There is (Sir Hugo Swire) is absolutely right to say that. a farmers’ market event today in the Members’ Dining I hope that the Minister will, in his reply, comment Room, and I spoke to some of the people there. Different on Action Oak, which is spearheaded by Woodland regions of the United Kingdom are represented, including Heritage. It is based quite near Alice Holt forest, and Northern Ireland. I understand that the Department of there is good reason why it should be there and able to Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, in Northern build on the information at that centre of excellence. Ireland, and the Republic of Ireland have a cross-border But funding is the key. We welcome the £500,000 that body that involves the Northern Ireland Environment DEFRA promised, but £15 million is needed, and it Agency, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds would be great to know how close we are to getting to and other Government bodies. However, although the that. framework is in place, there is no financial assistance Plantlife has identified what it calls its dirty dozen of for that cross-border body so that it can move forward invasive species, including American skunk-cabbage, and address the issue of invasive species coming to broad-leaved bamboo, giant rhubarb, cotoneasters, Northern Ireland, but also to the Republic. We need to Himalayan balsam, the Hottentot fig and Japanese dedicate funding to that purpose for the greater good of knotweed. These invasive species are not only causing all our plants and fauna. I ask the Minister whether huge environmental damage, but creating a huge cost there is any intention to widen the attack on the invaders for us to deal with. What my right hon. Friend the in our gardens. Member for North Shropshire did at DEFRA was quite I fully support the Department’s decision to implement right. He applied a logistician’s approach. I can remember stricter controls, yet it is a matter of closing the gate that as a result of foot and mouth, when we had a very after the horse has bolted—we have all these foreign serious drought—this was before he was Secretary of invaders already attacking our trees and wildlife and we State—we developed the same concept as was applied at must defend them. That needs to be targeted and done the time of foot and mouth. It was called birdtable on a UK-wide basis. Across the whole United Kingdom meetings. All the experts were brought in on a regular of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, we need to basis. They were very executive: they were called birdtable encourage the growth of our own beautiful plants and meetings because no one sat down—rather like the wildlife, free from attack by other plants that have no Privy Council—people just got the business done and right to be thriving on our shores. then everyone went away and got on with it. I think that that kind of approach is required now to deal with this 5 pm issue. Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con): It is a great pleasure Of course, one measure that we need to talk about is to be involved in this very important and timely debate. husbandry. If dealing with Chalara requires the ash tree I refer hon. Members to my entry in the Register of to be cut down and burned or taken away, or just cut Members’ Financial Interests. I should also say that I down at the first sign, that is easy for a larger state or an am a trustee of a charity called Plantlife, which is doing organisation such as the Forestry Commission, but it is a lot of work on invasive species and plant health and hard for a small farmer or someone with a few ash trees trying to encourage wildflowers. in their garden. Who will take responsibility for encouraging As my right hon. Friend the Member for North people to do the right thing? It requires a logistician’s Shropshire (Mr Paterson), a former Secretary of State, approach to dealing with it. said, invasive species are costing our economy at least We should beware easy solutions. I remember people £1.7 billion a year. I remember the plant retailers coming coming to see me and saying that we should spray acres to me, when I was in his Department, to whinge about of woodland with copper sulphate. Instead of listening the increased biosecurity measures that he was rightly to those people, who seemed to have lifted their solutions implementing. I listened to them, but I am afraid that I off the internet, I listened much more readily to the just said to them, “Look, you really have got this chief scientific adviser at the Department for Environment, wrong. Your industry is in part responsible for a devastating Food and Rural Affairs, who said that that would have effect on our natural environment. You have to face a much more malign effect on our biodiversity and facts: we are now moving into almost a military-style plant life. 429WH British Flora: Protection from 27 JUNE 2018 British Flora: Protection from 430WH Imported Diseases Imported Diseases I, too, have visited New Zealand and Australia. While spoke of the major challenges of ash dieback, and not I was still many thousands of miles away from arriving, just for larger organisations. He rightly emphasised the I was hit by how hard-wired biosecurity is into every challenges faced by smaller landowners in ensuring that aspect of the travelling experience. The airline and the they can respond if an outbreak sadly arrives in their airport staff are tuned in to it, and there is signage, so it area. is impossible to move without it being apparent. We I should mention briefly some of the areas that we need to develop a much more overt and proactive form are working on in Scotland. Plant health is at the heart of biosecurity. I hope the Minister will give us some of Scotland’s thriving natural environment, our rural reassurance about that. economy and our wellbeing. The aim of the Scottish plant health strategy is to safeguard agriculture,horticulture, 5.6 pm forestry and the wider environment from plant pests, Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): It is a pleasure from 2016 to 2021 and beyond. to sum up for the Scottish National party with you in One of the greatest threats to biodiversity worldwide the Chair, Sir Henry. I congratulate the right hon. is invasive non-native species. That threat is particularly Member for East Devon (Sir Hugo Swire) on securing pronounced for fragile island ecosystems—I am not just this debate and on his speech, which I will come to. talking about the British Isles, but the islands within the Given the subject of the debate, it would be remiss of British Isles. Disease has already been spoken about by me not to put on record my congratulations to Mairi the right hon. Member for East Devon and the hon. Gougeon MSP on her nomination to the Scottish Member for Strangford, and I think particularly of Government as the Minister for Rural Affairs and the Japanese knotweed. Natural Environment. It is a nomination because it is Scotland has led the way in the UK in creating a the practice in Scotland that Government nominations statutory framework to prevent the introduction and to ministerial office must be passed by Parliament. One spread of non-invasive species, but we have concerns of her early introductions might be to read the Hansard about the UK Government’s Brexit strategy and the of this debate to get a sense of some of the challenges power grab, including over environmental protections. that she will face in her job, not least from the likes of We are not opposed to UK-wide frameworks when they ash dieback. are in Scotland’s interests. However, they must be agreed The right hon. Gentleman made a typically forthright rather than imposed, and they must happen in a manner and challenging speech to the Minister. He spoke of the that respects and recognises devolution. The Scottish rate of planting trees elsewhere in these isles, but he did not First Minister has been clear that any threat to Scotland’s mention that Scotland created 73% of all new woodland distinctive and ambitious approach to environmental in the UK in 2016-17. Its target is now 15,000 hectares standards and climate change would be completely of new woodland by 2024-25, which is ambitious but unacceptable. Imposing a UK framework could result achievable. in substantial damage to the work that has already been The right hon. Gentleman obviously spoke about ash done by the Scottish Government. dieback, which is a considerable problem in Scotland. For example, we used EU rules to ban genetically Some 20% of all 10 km grid squares in Scotland have modified crops in Scotland to protect our environment confirmed ash dieback. It appears that some ash trees and support Scottish agriculture, and there is no such may have some tolerance or resistance to infection, so it ban in England. A UK-wide framework in that area would be interesting for scientists to get to the bottom could see the ban lifted, thereby threatening Scotland’s of how that came about. I take the point that mistakes clean, green brand and the future of Scotland’s £14 billion were made in how we targeted prevention, but we need food and drink sector. Scotland has gained international to ensure that a new strain of ash trees can be bred for recognition for our work on climate change and the the future. circular economy, so we clearly do not want to put that The right hon. Gentleman also spoke about xylella, at risk. which I understand is the subject of EU emergency measures to control the movement of affected species 5.12 pm such as plane, elm and oak. He also posed some questions Sue Hayman (Workington) (Lab): It is a pleasure to to the Minister about strategy should it arrive in this serve under your chairmanship, Sir Henry.I congratulate country.He made a forthright and knowledgeable speech, the right hon. Member for East Devon (Sir Hugo Swire) to which I am sure the Minister will seek to respond. on securing this debate. Biosecurity is a huge issue that The speech by the right hon. Member for North does not often get its turn in the spotlight. Shropshire (Mr Paterson) was obviously partly influenced The right hon. Member for North Shropshire by his time in ministerial office and the knowledge he (Mr Paterson), the hon. Member for Strangford gained there. He also posed several questions to the (Jim Shannon) and the right hon. Member for Newbury Minister, and we look forward to hearing the answers. (Richard Benyon) all made important points. I share The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) their concerns about the problems we have with the spoke of his contribution to the flora of Northern many invasive species. In our village, we have had to Ireland. He rightly spoke about the pervasive problem deal with Japanese knotweed, and we have huge issues of Japanese knotweed, which is a horrendous issue. with Himalayan balsam. Until I was elected to this From personal experience of constituency cases in Airdrie place, I had a personal mission against Himalayan and Shotts, I know that it is expensive and challenging balsam encroaching on to our land, which I have now to deal with. The right hon. Member for Newbury handed over to my husband. Removing invasive species (Richard Benyon) described a military-style campaign, is a terribly difficult, time-consuming and costly exercise. and that is exactly what is often required to deal with There is then the dreadful problem of dealing with Japanese knotweed. It is a horrendous issue. He also diseases such as ash dieback, which we have also discussed. 431WH British Flora: Protection from 27 JUNE 2018 British Flora: Protection from 432WH Imported Diseases Imported Diseases [Sue Hayman] what resources we will need to check it. Have any estimates been made of the volume of plant imports Biosecurity is terribly critical but perhaps does not from the EU? If those imports are not checked properly, get enough attention. It is also vital for our biosecurity does the Minister agree that there will be risks for that we retain access to EU markets. We have to make biosecurity? sure that the right resources and infrastructure are in The current assumption on checks is that they will place to handle the continued movement of animals have to happen at supermarket distribution centres, for and plants. We need our trade with the EU to continue example, because we do not have the capacity to do so to be as frictionless as possible. Most importantly, at the points of entry. There is a risk that inspectors regulatory standards must not be compromised by Brexit. could be overwhelmed by the volume of additional The right hon. Member for North Shropshire said that inspections and therefore miss dangerous pests or diseases we need to trade in healthy plants and I could not agree in other imports. To combat that, I understand that the with him more. Animal and Plant Health Agency is recruiting about Prospect recently submitted evidence to an inquiry by 40 new inspectors and seven new mangers, which is the House of Lords EU Energy and Environment Sub- excellent news, but it is hard to see how they can be Committee into biosecurity,recommending better training trained in time. There has never been a requirement for for plant health officers, an issue that has already been training on this scale before. Will the Minister comment mentioned. We need to establish a viable training on that and let me know if the training is being done programme for new and established inspectors, plus face to face or online, as there are clearly concerns joint training ventures with the Horticultural Trades about the issue? Association and the Royal Horticultural Society. The Currently, non-EU imports are managed through an evidence also recommends more long-term investment HMRC customs computer system. The volumes are in agricultural and environmental science, as well as relatively low and require advanced notice. Inspectors that Ministers should put together a plan to deliver are asking whether that system is appropriate for future biosecurity collaboration with the EU post-Brexit. EU imports and whether it could cope with additional There are significant worries that we may weaken volume. Does the Minister believe that the current biosecurity protection and open ourselves up to risks HMRC plant import customs IT system will be able to and threats through trade deals, unless we do everything deal with the imports from the EU? Has any assessment we can to ensure that sufficient checks and resources are been made of that? Is a new system being designed? If put in place to mitigate those risks. Brexit could mean so, on what basis and will it be ready in time? the end of shared biosecurity information—such as that I am aware that I have posed quite a number of provided through the European rapid alert system for questions to the Minister and I appreciate that he may food and feed, and through the European Union not be able to answer them all today. If that is the case, I notification system for plant health interceptions—for would be grateful if he would write to me with the the intercepting of pests and diseases on imported goods. answers. We are at the end of a huge plant supply chain from other EU states. This could be significant for the future 5.19 pm of British biosecurity. The current system of sharing The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (George intelligence of biosecurity threats within or bordering Eustice): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, the EU must continue in some form. Given the volume Sir Henry. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the of UK-EU trade, it is critical that we continue to Member for East Devon (Sir Hugo Swire) on securing collaborate. The cost of dealing with pests and pathogens this debate. once they are in the UK is significantly more expensive As a number of hon. Members have pointed out, and much more challenging than preventing their protecting our country from pests and diseases is vital introduction in the first place, as has been mentioned by to safeguarding our environment. The loss of veteran right hon. and hon. Members. That shared expertise is trees, some of which have been around for hundreds of vital to being able to plan and prepare for future challenges. years, due to some of those diseases, is particularly Any loss of that integrated approach would pose a risk tragic. I remember as a boy growing up in Cornwall that to UK biosecurity. Will the Minister commit to retaining we had beautiful elms right around the farm. I can the precautionary principle in implementing biosecurity remember my father having to cut them down, year legislation? after year, because they had died. It was a tremendous We need a closer relationship with EU standards tragedy, and since then threats to plant health have only post-Brexit, but that may not provide the protections increased. That is why, as a number of hon. Members we need in the future, because we will have to continue have pointed out, we have to be constantly on our guard to update legislation and practices, to tackle any new and strengthen our responses. challenges and threats as they emerge. We know that My right hon. Friend highlighted in his comprehensive climate change is spreading pests and diseases to new speech many of the current threats. As he pointed out, locations, and new trade deals will require new supply-chain we have the problem of ash dieback, which prompted assurances and the expertise to manage those risks. changes to our plans some years ago. In the west New legislation also needs to be flexible enough to country we have a particular problem, as he said, with enable quicker reaction to new threats and to improve phytophthora ramorum, which is particularly prevalent the move from pest eradication, to containment, to in areas of the country with wet conditions and species management. that are prone to that disease. We have, with our iconic Another problem is that we simply do not know how oaks, the problem of oak processionary moth and acute much plant material is imported from the EU every oak decline, which has been around for a number of year, as it is not checked, so we do not have any idea years. As he pointed out, recently in his part of the 433WH British Flora: Protection from 27 JUNE 2018 British Flora: Protection from 434WH Imported Diseases Imported Diseases world we have seen the arrival of sweet chestnut blight. and 30,000 physical checks a year of consignments deemed In addition, we are now monitoring and are vigilant to be of higher risk. They are highly effective in comparison against threats, including xylella at the top of the list, with their peers, so the UK consistently makes more and others such as plane wilt, which would be a major interceptions of harmful organisms than any other threat to some of our trees in urban areas such as EU member state. In fact, the interceptions we make London, and the emerald ash borer. account for about 40% of the total number of interceptions My right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire that take place at EU level. (Mr Paterson), who was the first Secretary of State I served under in my post in the Department for Jim Shannon: I referred earlier to the fact that there is Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—I think we are a skeletal body in place in Northern Ireland and the now on to Secretary of State No. 4—asked a very Republic—it involves the Northern Ireland Environment specific question with, I have to say, a hint of scepticism Agency, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, in his voice. He wanted to know whether the the Northern Ireland Department of Agriculture, recommendations of the tree health and plant biosecurity Environment and Rural Affairs, and others from the initiative expert taskforce, which he commissioned and Republic of Ireland—but it has no funding. I do not which reported in 2014, had been implemented. He will expect the Minister to have all the answers—that would be delighted to know that those recommendations have be unfair—but will he come back to me with an answer been implemented, and many of the important changes about the funding, so that we can get it going? that he put in place are still with us today. In fact, we have built on some of the architecture and infrastructure George Eustice: I was going to try to touch on that; it that he put in place. was on the long list of issues that I wanted to cover. For instance, we now have a chief plant health officer; There is already an all-Ireland approach to plant health indeed, Nicola Spence, our current chief plant health between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and we co-operate officer, is here today listening to the debate. We have closely with the Republic of Ireland on plant health. also developed a prioritised UK risk register, which has For instance, we invite it to the UK plant health in the region of 1,000 pests registered on it. We co-ordination meeting. A lot of joint working takes have strengthened governance arrangements. My right place in that regard. hon. Friend asked—with, I think, an especial hint of In 2016, some 445 different pests were intercepted scepticism—whether our monthly biosecurity meetings, and identified at UK points of entry; in 2017, the figure which he used to chair, continue. Perhaps he thought was 401. We cannot eliminate all the risks, but we have that they had fallen by the wayside after he had gone, as robust contingency plans in place so that we can take meetings often do. I reassure him that that monthly prompt, effective action to tackle the pests and diseases biosecurity meeting is critical and still takes place. He will that make it through. In February 2017 we published be delighted to know that my noble Friend Lord Gardiner, the generic contingency plan for plant and bee health, who leads on that element of the DEFRA portfolio, is which sets out how the DEFRA chief plant health every bit as tenacious as he was in identifying threats officer will co-ordinate and lead the response to an and ensuring that we take them seriously. outbreak of pests or diseases in plants or bees in England. The fourth recommendation was that there should be Wealso have ongoing extensive aerial and ground-based improved border security and strengthened import surveillance programmes, including Observatree, a regulations, which I will deal with a little later. The final nationwide network of more than 200 volunteer surveyors recommendation was that there should be a new plant trained by the Forest Research agency and the Woodland health information portal. We have introduced all those Trust. We have increased national protection at home recommendations and taken them further. by introducing statutory notification schemes for certain tree species and securing protected zones, which prevent As a result of the biosecurity strategy launched in 2014, the import of trees that do not meet stringent conditions. the plant health service now operates, pre-border, things A protected zone effectively bans the import of trees such as systematic screening of risk, at-the-border checks— unless they have been grown in an area free of the inspections at entry points—and also an inland strategy relevant disease and are accompanied by a plant passport that uses both aerial and ground surveillance to reduce certifying that. We have introduced more protected the risk of pests and diseases entering the country, and zones than any other member state. Since the introduction to manage the impact of established pests. of statutory notification schemes for imports, there has Turning first to the pre-border checks, we try to stop also been a significant reduction in the number of tree pests and diseases before they even arrive, and our imports. For instance, we have seen a 60% reduction in international horizon scanning helps us spot new risks plane tree imports. and take action to stop them. Risks are tracked through My right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon a fully published UK plant health risk register, which, raised the issue of budget, which is obviously important. as I have said, now has more than 1,000 plant pests and There is a £37 million budget for tree health between diseases registered on it. Where necessary, we take action 2012 and 2020, which has been spent on research, to drive up international biosecurity standards, ensuring monitoring, risk assessment, surveillance and management that regulations are robust in both Europe and beyond. and will support the priorities of our tree health resilience For instance, we secured stronger EU-wide protections strategy. He also asked about Sir William Worsley, our against the threat of xylella. new tree champion. I know the budget is being discussed Turning to the border, we have invested more than and any budget he needs will be funded out of the £4.5 million to strengthen our border security, recruiting provision we have for tree health, alongside other priorities. new plant inspectors and enhancing training. Our border Having that tree champion has been an important inspectors carry out more than 100,000 document checks step forward. 435WH British Flora: Protection from 27 JUNE 2018 British Flora: Protection from 436WH Imported Diseases Imported Diseases [George Eustice] 5.29 pm

Both my right hon. Friend the Member for Newbury Sir Hugo Swire: I thank all right hon. and hon. (Richard Benyon) and my right hon. Friend the Member Members from the Conservative party, the Scottish for East Devon raised the issue of the Action Oak National party and the Democratic Unionist party, and programme, which was launched only recently by my the rather lonely spokesman for the Opposition Labour noble Friend Lord De Mauley. We have made progress party, for taking part in this debate. It is a subject that I with it: so far, £1.6 million has been raised towards it. would have thought would interest hon. Members from My right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire all over the country, and I hope that when we debate raised the issue of border controls. This week, we are these matters in future, as I am sure we will, we will have running a “Don’t Risk It” campaign, with visible posters greater representation. I think we are all agreed, in a and information for the public. rare form of consensus, that this is a serious problem and one that we need to get a grip on if we are to Finally, on the issue of the European Union—no preserve our landscape for future generations. debate in this place is complete without contemplating what might happen with Brexit—leaving the EU is an opportunity to examine all our national biosecurity Question put and agreed to. measures, to ensure that they are as robust as possible and that we are doing everything we can to protect our Resolved, country. We are working to secure the best EU exit deal, balancing frictionless trade in plants with robust protection That this House has considered the protection of British flora against pests and diseases from day one, but certainly from imported diseases. there will be opportunities as we leave the EU to adopt a slightly different approach where we deem it necessary to protect our trees and promote plant health in this 5.30 pm country. Sitting adjourned. 27WS Written Statements 27 JUNE 2018 Written Statements 28WS

of the NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB). The report Written Statements has been laid before Parliament today (Cm 9641). I am grateful to the chair and members of the NHSPRB for Wednesday 27 June 2018 their report. The Government welcome the 31st report of the FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE NHS Pay Review Body, which endorses the “Agenda For Change” multi-year pay and contract reform deal (2018-19 to 2020-21). Arms Export Policy: Argentina NHS staff do a fantastic job in delivering world-class The Minister for Europe and the Americas (Sir Alan care. Even with increasing pressures on the NHS due to, Duncan): I would like to inform the House of a change among other things, an ageing population and changing of the Government’s arms exports policy in relation to public expectations, they work incredibly hard, always Argentina. This change will lift additional restrictions putting patients first and keeping them safe while providing which were imposed in 2012, at a time when the Argentine the high-quality care we all expect. Government was escalating actions aimed at harming We have already announced that, to secure the future the economic interests of the Falkland islanders. of the health service as it approaches its 70th birthday, Since the election of President Macri in December we have increased NHS funding by an average 3.4% per 2015, the UK’s relationship with Argentina has been year, which will see the NHS receive £20.5 billion a year improving. I visited Buenos Aires in September 2016—the in real terms by 2023. first visit by a Foreign and Commonwealth Office Minister The Government accept the NHSRPB’s observations since 2009. During the visit an historic UK-Argentina and are very pleased to confirm their acceptance of the joint communiqué was agreed that established closer “Agenda For Change” multi-year pay and contract co-operation across our bilateral relationship (including reform deal. in defence) and secured important benefits for the Falkland The new deal will see nearly 1 million NHS workers islanders. The Foreign Secretary also visited Buenos benefit over three years and help deliver better value for Aires in May 2018, the first Foreign Secretary visit to money from the £36 billion “Agenda For Change” pay Argentina since 1993, in a further demonstration of the bill, with some of the most important changes to working improving bilateral relationship between the UK and practices in a decade. Argentina. The deal includes a range of pay and non-pay proposals Following these positive developments the Government that will benefit staff and patients. Most NHS staff believe it is appropriate to now lift the additional 2012 below the top of their pay band will benefit from pay restrictions. increases through the restructuring of the pay bands— higher starting pay, removal of overlapping pay points Under those restrictions it has been the British and shorter pay scales. Government’s policy not to grant an export licence for From this year the lowest NHS starting salary will increase any military or dual-use goods and technology being year on year from £15,404 to £18,005 in 2020-21. supplied to military end-users in Argentina, except in The starting salary of a nurse will rise to £24,907 in 2020-21 exceptional circumstances. which will have a significant impact on retention and recruitment Our general position now will be to continue to issues. refuse licences for export and trade of goods judged to The deal also guarantees fair basic pay awards for the enhance Argentine military capability. However, where next three years to staff who are at the top of pay like-for-like equipment is no longer available, we may bands—a cumulative 6.5% over three years. grant licences where we judge they are not detrimental The agreement will put learning and development to the UK’s defence and security interests. right at the heart of local annual appraisals, helping to Licence applications for equipment and defence improve the experience for staff, ensuring they demonstrate technology which meet the above criteria will still be the required standards for their role before moving to assessed on a case-by-case basis against the consolidated the next pay point. We know that getting appraisals EU and national arms export licensing criteria (the right helps improve staff engagement and through that “consolidated criteria”). better outcomes for patients. The deal also commits The United Kingdom takes its export control NHS employers to support staff to improve their physical responsibilities very seriously and operates one of the and mental health, helping to reduce sickness absence, most robust export control regimes in the world. We increasing capacity for patient care. rigorously examine every application on a case-by-case This is a major step forward. The agreement reflects basis against the consolidated EU and national arms the Government’s public sector pay policy that pay export licensing criteria, and remain prepared to suspend flexibility should be in return for reforms that improve or revoke licences should the level of risk increase. recruitment and retention and boost productivity. [HCWS799] During the NHS trades unions consultation on the AfC framework agreement, the Department of Health and Social Care received a number of representations HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE from non-statutory non-NHS organisations that provide NHS services seeking additional funding on the same NHS Pay Review Body and Agenda for Change basis as NHS bodies. Pay Deal It is important to stress that the AfC reforms were those, based on the AfC employment contract (and all The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care the terms and conditions) the NHS Staff Council agreed (Mr Jeremy Hunt): I am responding on behalf of my could help the NHS recruit, retain, motivate and boost right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the 31st report the productivity/capacity of its workforce. 29WS Written Statements 27 JUNE 2018 Written Statements 30WS

We know that there a small number of non-statutory Whether there is evidence from existing clinical trials or non-NHS organisations that provide NHS services, employ other clinical data which indicate that a patient will benefit existing and new staff on the AfC contract and will be from a cannabis-based medicinal product; or, required to implement the reforms. Whether the clinician considers there is an otherwise unmet I believe it is right that these organisations should special clinical need that could be addressed through use of receive a share of the additional funding made available a cannabis-based medicinal product by the patient. for AfC staff employed by NHS bodies listed at annex 1 of the NHS terms and conditions of service handbook; In considering these criteria, the panel will be assessing each employ existing and new staff on the AfC contract, whether the attending clinician, who has the responsibility are required to implement the deal and will need to for the case, is making an evidence-based and reasonable meet the costs of doing so. request for a specific case. The panel cannot make clinical decisions for a patient not under their care. The From 2018-19, the AfC pay deal will apply to existing full terms of reference and criteria, along with details and new staff on the AfC employment contract employed for clinicians on how to apply, are available on gov.uk. in both NHS bodies and non-statutory non-NHS organisations that provide NHS services, the terms and The panel will not be responsible for issuing licences: conditions of which are set out in the NHS terms and only the Home Secretary or the Department of Health conditions of service handbook. in Northern Ireland can give the formal approval of a I have asked my officials to write directly to all NHS schedule 1 licence—both, however, will have due regard commissioners and provide them with further detail of to the panel’s recommendations. the eligibility criteria for additional funding during the three years of the pay deal, that will apply to those As I and the Home Secretary made clear last week, non-statutory non-NHS providers of NHS services. we will be led by clinical decision making. To streamline the application process as much as possible, for applications In line with the Chancellor’s commitment at Budget made through the expert panel to prescribe cannabis-based 2017, the Government will release the £800 million medicinal products, the Government will not require a already set aside to support the pay deal for 2018-19 in site visit unless absolutely necessary. The Government England. Barnett consequential will flow to the devolved will also not require a fresh DBS check from clinicians, Administrations in the usual way. Following the recent or other individuals involved in the treatment of a announcement on the NHS long-term funding settlement, patient involving a cannabis-based medicinal product, for the remaining two years of the deal (2019-20 to where they are practising under an existing DBS check. 2020-21) funding will be met from the settlement. The Waiving these requirements will ensure that any application long-term settlement will provide the NHS with increased for a licence submitted following consideration by the funding of £20.5 billion per year in real terms by the expert panel, where a visit and fresh DBS check are not end of five years. required, can expect to receive a drug licensing decision [HCWS803] within two to four weeks. Should the panel be presented with an emergency case, the panel will consider cases as quickly as is necessary dependent on the medical HOME DEPARTMENT circumstances. The Government are also committed to reviewing the Drugs Policy fees paid for licences that are awarded as a result of the advice of the expert panel. That review will take place urgently and will conclude before summer recess, with The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick any legislation laid before the House at the first available Hurd): On 18 June, I announced the creation of an date following its conclusion. In the meantime, for expert panel to advise Ministers on individual applications applications for a licence made by the NHS, neither to prescribe cannabis-based medicinal products. As of individual patients nor their families will be asked to today, the panel is now accepting applications, and will make any financial contribution towards the cost of any meet for the first time later this week. The clinical panel licence that may be issued. will be chaired by the chief medical officer for Northern Ireland, Dr Michael McBride. Further members of the On 19 June, the Home Secretary announced a two-phase panel will be announced this week. review looking at the scheduling of cannabis. Part one Clinicians must be at the heart of the process. The of the review will consider the available evidence of the panel will consider applications from GMC registered medicinal and therapeutic benefits of cannabis and practitioners who are listed on the relevant specialist cannabis-based products. Professor Dame Sally Davies register and with an active licence to practise. These will take this part forward. If part one concludes that applications must be countersigned by a medical director there is evidence of medicinal and therapeutic benefit, or an equivalent. This will provide the reassurance that then part two will consider the appropriate schedule for prescribing these currently unlicensed and potentially cannabis-related products, based on the balance of harms untested products is in the best interests of the patient. and public health requirements. Part two will be led by Applications will not be accepted from members of the the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD), public. with clinical input as required. The ACMD will not reassess the evidence issued by Professor Dame Sally The panel will assess applications against several Davies which I have received today. criteria. These include: Evidence of exceptional clinical circumstances, in line with [HCWS802] existing principles applied to individual funding requests within the NHS; or, 31WS Written Statements 27 JUNE 2018 Written Statements 32WS

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT While the support and services provided by UNRWA are essential, ultimately there needs to be a just, fair, agreed, and realistic solution to the Palestinian refugee UK Support to UNRWA question as part of a negotiated peace agreement. The UK is firmly committed to a two-state solution to The Minister of State, Department for International provide the long-term answer for Palestinian refugees. Development (Alistair Burt): The UK remains firmly Peace will come only through fresh negotiations between committed to supporting Palestinian refugees across the parties, supported by the international community. the near east. The UK recognises the UN Relief and It is critical that both Israelis and Palestinians return to Works Agency’s (UNRWA) important mandate from direct negotiations and urgently prioritise steps to resolve the UN General Assembly to support and protect the situation in Gaza. The UK remains firmly committed Palestinian refugees. to this process. UNRWA is a necessary humanitarian and stabilising [HCWS801] force across the near east, providing millions of Palestinian refugees with hope and opportunities every day. Its JUSTICE basic services, including food, education and healthcare, provide a life-line to the 5 million and more Palestinian Female Offender Strategy men, women and child refugees across the region, and enable them to live in dignity until a negotiated peace The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice agreement. (Mr David Gauke): Today,I am launching the Government’s The UK is concerned about the possibility of service female offender strategy following our commitment in suspension as a result of the exceptional funding deficit the November 2016 “Prison Safety and Reform” White that UNRWA is facing this year. The Syrian conflict has Paper. caused more than 50,000 Palestinian refugees to be on If we are to make any significant difference for victims, the move again, and increasing numbers of refugees are families and wider society, we must break the cycle of food insecure and vulnerable to shocks. Recent violence reoffending by taking the necessary steps to understand in Gaza has added to the burden on UNRWA’s health and address the underlying causes of offending. services. UNRWA’s work has never been more critical. The evidence tells us that vulnerability is not just a In the face of these pressures, the UK has committed consequence of crime, it is also a driver of offending to deliver its next round of financial support earlier behaviour, preventing many from breaking out of a than originally planned to help meet the growing needs cycle of reoffending. of Palestinian refugees across the region. We will disburse There is also growing evidence that short custodial £38.5 million to the agency in recognition of the severity sentences do not work in terms of rehabilitation and of the deficit and the importance of service delivery. reducing reoffending. Short sentences generate churn This includes £28.5 million that I committed at the which is a major driver of instability in our prisons and UNRWA Rome pledging conference earlier this year, they do not provide sufficient time for rehabilitative and £10 million of funding that the UK is bringing activity, especially when we also know that many of forward from next year’s budget in response to the these offenders have complex needs and vulnerabilities. exceptional cash flow challenges UNRWA is facing. In most cases, we know that the best way to meet those The UK will continue to work closely with UNRWA needs is to help people get access to the services they to reach a secure and sustainable financial footing. We need in the community. have welcomed UNRWA’s efforts to become ever more Female offenders can be among the most vulnerable efficient and cost-effective, and are committed to working of all, in both the prevalence and complexity of their closely with them, host authorities, and fellow donors needs.Manyexperiencechaoticlifestylesinvolvingsubstance to maintain a realistic and achievable pace of reform. misuse,mental health problems,homelessness and offending We communicated the UK’s ongoing support to the behaviour, which are often the product of a life of abuse UN Secretary-General at an UNRWApledging conference and trauma. Of those female offenders who are in in New York on 25 June. We were pleased that 20 donors custody, many are sentenced for nonviolent, low-level announced contributions, or their intention to contribute, but persistent offences, often for short periods of time. to the 2018 budget of UNRWA. I will continue to urge If we take the right approach to female offenders—one the international community to come together to ensure that addresses vulnerability, follows the evidence about that UNRWA can maintain its essential work and find what works in supporting them to turn their lives around, ways to ensure continuity of essential services to Palestinian and treats them as individuals of value—it could have refugees. substantial benefits for victims, families, and offenders All of us who care about stability in the region and themselves. about the rights and needs of this vulnerable group of This strategy sets out the Government’s commitment people need to do our part to alleviate the suffering of to a new programme of work for female offenders, Palestinian refugees. The UK has welcomed UNRWA’s driven by our vision to see: efforts to broaden its donor base and encouraged partners fewer women coming into the criminal justice system to step up with more funding and more predictable fewer women in custody, especially on short-term sentences, disbursements. The UK has highlighted our concern and a greater proportion of women managed in the community about the impact on the activities of UNRWA that any successfully; and unexpected reductions or delays in predicted donor better conditions for those in custody. disbursements might have. While we acknowledge the To achieve this, we are shifting our focus from custody greater burden shouldered by some, we urge all donors to the community. Across Government, we are investing to honour their commitments. £5 million funding over two years in community provision 33WS Written Statements 27 JUNE 2018 Written Statements 34WS for women. We are committing to working with partners can progress really happen. That is why the strategy to assess options for delivering a “residential women’s outlines a framework for taking this forward with partners, centres” pilot in at least five sites across England and one which is locally-led, partnership-focused and evidence- Wales. We want to build the evidence base about what based. are effective, sustainable and scalable options in the As part of this, we will work across Government and community for diverting women from entering and with other national and local partners to develop a re-entering custody on short custodial sentences. We national concordat on female offenders, which will set will not be proceeding with plans to build five new out how services should be working together in partnership community prisons for Women. to identify and respond to the often multiple and complex Given that a higher proportion of women have dependent needs of women involved in the criminal justice system. children living with them prior to imprisonment, We must ensure we are accountable for the priorities incarceration of women may have a disproportionate set out in this strategy. Therefore, we will publish an impact on families and children and increase the risk annual update on the progress of the work of the of intergenerational offending. That is why we are strategy and reform the Advisory Board on Female commissioning Lord Farmer to continue his work on Offenders to give it a greater role in monitoring the the importance of family ties in improving outcomes delivery of commitments in this strategy. for offenders, by conducting a further review into female The female offender strategy is available in full at: offenders. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/female- Only through effective partnerships, at both a national offender-strategy and local level, which take a holistic approach to tackling [HCWS800] the causes underlying the behaviour of female offenders,

5MC Ministerial Corrections27 JUNE 2018 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

be too many difficult votes to be dealt with during the Ministerial Correction course of the year ahead, I am sure he will have that sort of commitment. The hon. Lady rightly points out Wednesday 27 June 2018 that, in places like Cameroon and the DRC, we are highly respected as a Government and will continue to be so. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE [Official Report, 26 June 2018, Vol. 643, c. 752.] Human Rights Letter of correction from Mark Field: The following is an extract from Questions to the An error has been identified in the response I gave to Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs the hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz on Tuesday 26 June 2018. McInnes) during Questions to the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. Liz McInnes (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab): Yesterday the Foreign Office, rather pathetically, used the cover The correct response should have been: story of a trip to Africa to throw the media off the Foreign Secretary’s scent. Can I suggest to the Minister that his boss makes a real trip to Africa to focus Mark Field: May I point out that the Foreign Secretary urgently on the violence in western Cameroon, the has visited Africa on no fewer than four occasions instability gripping the Democratic Republic of the during the past year? Although I assume there will not Congo and the danger that next month’s elections in be too many difficult votes to be dealt with during the Zimbabwe will not be free, fair or democratic? course of the year ahead, I am sure he will have that sort of commitment. The hon. Lady rightly points out Mark Field: May I point out that the Foreign Secretary that, in places like Cameroon and the DRC, we are has visited Africa on no fewer than nine occasions highly respected as a Government and will continue to during the past year? Although I assume there will not be so.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 27 June 2018

Col. No. Col. No. CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER LANCASTER AND MINISTER FOR THE AND MINISTER FOR THE CABINET OFFICE— CABINET OFFICE...... 873 continued Government Procurement: Small Businesses...... 875 Voter ID Pilots...... 874 House of Lords: Membership...... 877 Voter ID Pilots...... 880 National Democracy Week ...... 880 Outsourcing: Value for Money...... 873 Senior Public Appointments: Widening Access...... 878 PRIME MINISTER ...... 884 Topical Questions ...... 882 Engagements...... 884 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 27 June 2018

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 27WS HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 29WS Arms Export Policy: Argentina...... 27WS Drugs Policy ...... 29WS INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT ...... 31WS UK Support to UNRWA...... 31WS HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE...... 27WS NHS Pay Review Body and Agenda for Change JUSTICE...... 32WS Pay Deal ...... 27WS Female Offender Strategy...... 32WS MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 27 June 2018

Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 5MC Human Rights ...... 5MC No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 4 July 2018

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 643 Wednesday No. 161 27 June 2018

CONTENTS

Wednesday 27 June 2018

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 873] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Privately Financed Prisons [Col. 903] Answer to urgent question—(Rory Stewart)

Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) [Col. 912] Bill presented, and read the First time

Toilets (Provision and Accessibility) [Col. 913] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Paula Sherriff)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Offensive Weapons Bill [Col. 916] Motion for Second Reading—(Sajid Javid)—agreed to Programme motion—(Kelly Tolhurst)—agreed to

Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust: Governance [Col. 1002] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Healthcare and Associated Professions [Col. 1011] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Healthcare on English Islands [Col. 361WH] Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth Games: Shooting [Col. 374WH] Scottish Economy [Col. 381WH] BAME Blood, Stem Cell and Organ Donation [Col. 411WH] British Flora: Protection from Imported Diseases [Col. 419WH] General debates

Written Statements [Col. 27WS]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]