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Thomas Jefferson on Food and Freedom Thomas Jefferson On food and freedom EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Listen to Presidential at http://wapo.st/presidential This transcript was run through an automated transcription service and then lightly edited for clarity. There may be typos or small discrepancies from the podcast audio. LILLIAN CUNNINGHAM: "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." These are words from the Declaration of Independence, put forward by the 13 states of America on July 4, 1776. And these are words written by Thomas Jefferson. This is the third episode of Presidential. PRESIDENTIAL THEME MUSIC LILLIAN CUNNINGHAM: As you'll hear from the historians in this episode who have spent their careers studying Thomas Jefferson, the topics we could explore today are just about endless. He played a pivotal role in shaping America's approach to religious freedom, personal liberty, art, food, science, race relations. I asked a number of experts this question: What are three things that we absolutely should know about Thomas Jefferson? Just about all of them gave the same answer. Number one: that the Louisiana Purchase happened during his presidency. Number two: that he was the main author of the Declaration of Independence. And number three: that despite penning the words "All men are created equal," he owned hundreds of slaves at his Virginia home, Monticello. That contradiction between his words and his actions sits at the heart of his complex legacy today. And that's why many of the guests on this episode say they continue to study Jefferson, because his big contradiction is America's big contradiction -- namely, that we believe in liberty and equality, but have wrestled throughout our country's history with how to live out that ideal. So, let's start with a better picture of him. Here's John Meacham, who wrote the bestselling Jefferson biography, "The Art of Power." Presidential podcast wapo.st/presidential 1 JON MEACHAM: Well, Thomas Jefferson was tall, sandy-haired, his skin freckled in the sun. People disagreed about what color eyes he had. They appeared -- they were described differently. He was somewhat awkward physically. He was a big man. Conversationally, he would never have challenged you. He disliked conflict. He always wanted to find areas of agreement -- areas of mutual enjoyment -- as opposed to disagreement; and was, I think, in many ways, the founding father who charms us most. He was a gourmand. He was an architect. He was a writer. He was a scientist. You know, he was a politician. He had a voracious appetite for information -- for anything new. He loved fine things. You know he died very much in debt because he wanted the best of everything. So if you were walking into the president's house in Washington or Monticello, you would find a remarkably confident, amenable and amiable host. LILLIAN CUNNINGHAM: Jefferson was born in 1743 and he grows up in Virginia. His father dies when he was a young teenager, but his family was fairly well off. And he eventually inherits the land that will become Monticello. He's very intellectual and he's very well educated. He goes on to study law. And then by 1776, he's part of the small group who are charged with writing the Declaration of Independence; and Jefferson is essentially the main person who drafts the whole thing. JON MEACHAM: I think he wanted to play a large role in the largest possible stages. I think his father had been a big, significant man. Peter Jefferson had been a surveyor and explore and someone that the people looked up to. And I think Jefferson, who was the eldest son, was born with a sense that he was to participate in the public affairs of the then colony, what was later the Commonwealth, later the nation. He had an endless appetite for affection, applause, adulation -- you know, like most political people. For that matter, like most people. LILLIAN CUNNINGHAM: Though he's charismatic in small social settings, Jefferson doesn't like public speaking the way John Adams did. He's much more comfortable and eloquent as a writer. JON MEACHAM: Jefferson was not a speech maker. He was a committeeman. He worked quietly, often offstage. He was often the person given the duty of writing up what a committee had decided. The Declaration of Independence, in fact, was the world's most famous subcommittee report. He did not like public performance in the sense that we think of now. So there was an introverted part of Jefferson. But what's so interesting about him is, though he was introverted, though he often was quite eloquent in describing how he wanted to return to his farms and to his mountain and to Monticello, he was inexorably drawn to the political arena -- always seeking office. For a Biblical 40 years, with the exception of maybe four, he was either in office or seeking it. Clearly, he was absolutely addicted to it, and yet couldn't quite admit it even to himself. There was a tension in his head and his heart between ambition and quiet retirement. And ambition always won. LILLIAN CUNNINGHAM: OK, here's the highlights reel of his political career. After drafting the Declaration of Independence, he becomes governor of Virginia for a couple years. Then, he becomes an ambassador to France. When George Washington is president, Jefferson comes back and serves in his cabinet as the first Secretary of State. But he ends up resigning over differences with other cabinet members, like Hamilton. Presidential podcast wapo.st/presidential 2 As we heard about last week, he eventually runs for president at the same time as John Adams and he comes in second, which makes him Adams's vice president. After one term of Adams being in office, Jefferson runs for president again. And he wins and takes over the presidency. That's a very short version of Jefferson's path to the White House. By now, you probably know that I like asking Julie Miller, the historian at the Library of Congress, what it would be like to go on a blind date with these early presidents. I just I find it a really helpful way to get a better sense of them. So here's what she said about Jefferson. JULIE MILLER: So, he certainly charmed some people. For example, here at the Library, we have the papers of Margaret Bayard Smith, who was the wife of a newspaper publisher, Samuel Smith, and the newspaper was the National Intelligencer. And it was the newspaper that was affiliated with Jefferson's party. So, the Smiths were smitten with Jefferson. Margaret Bayard Smith says things like, 'When I met him, I took his hand and vibrated all over.’ She doesn't say exactly that, but she sort of conveys that that's kind of how she felt. And she says, 'He was so modest and so personable and so kind. And yet there I was in the presence of Thomas Jefferson.' And then subsequently, she went to his house a couple of times and she describes how charming and friendly he was and how hospitable he was. And his married daughter lived with him, and again, their hospitality was made possible by the labor -- the coerced labor -- of enslaved people who had no choice but to serve them. That's how these Virginians could be hospitable. And she describes how Jefferson gave her a tour of his library, took her on a carriage ride through his lovely grounds around his house. She complained that he drove too fast and that sort of thing. So, he probably would have been fun, right? In a sense, because he was interested in many, many, many things. He had a very, very, very interesting house in a beautiful setting. I would get away from him as fast as possible. LILLIAN CUNNINGHAM: Why? JULIE MILLER: I don't think he's a good catch. And in fact, you could do a lot better. He was not always truthful, Thomas Jefferson. He sometimes said things behind people's backs that were not very nice, and he could be a little tricky. He was very different from Washington. Washington was really a man of candor in many respects. Jefferson was not. Jefferson was really a politician. Washington was a politician, too, but Washington was all about, like, leading by the quality of his character. Whereas Jefferson was president at a time when the parties, while still not officially parties -- they were still what people were calling factions, in a sense -- were much more developed. And he was very much a creature of his party, very interested in undermining the other party. And even though in his inaugural address he said, “We are all Republicans. We are all federalists.” He didn't mean it. You know, he didn't. He basically felt that his people should come out on top and the other people should not. So no, I don't think -- I think you'd go on a date with him, it would be really fun, and you wouldn't go again. I think you'd spend a little time with him and maybe you would feel that there were layers and layers of things to know about him, which perhaps you wouldn’t like. Presidential podcast wapo.st/presidential 3 LILLIAN CUNNINGHAM: So, let's begin peeling back those layers. And one of the first ones we'll look at is the splintering of political factions.
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