I6 September. 1056.1 8* to: accept his suggestion that -this legisla tion should operate only until the 30t] UEg~t.tltn Agrrnnlu September. 195?. Thursday, 6th September. 1956. Hon. F. D. WILLMO'rT: I am not CONTENTS. agreeable to that suggestion. Grower 3 have approached me to reject this legisla - Address-in-reply, presentation ... .. tion. I tried to persuade them to accep t Questions :Betting, (a) powers of board .. it for a period until the 30th September (b) position in New South Wales but they refused. Bridges, old Collie River structure .. Hon. F. R. H. Lavery: Would the hot Railaysfreghtanddiesels used, Mt. member who has just sat down tell th Committee how many growers were repre Nursing services, trainees ... .. sented by the men who approached hir a Native welfare, (a) State population and to reject this legislation? employment of full blood aborigines Amendment put and a division take: n(b) population and employment In with the following result:- specific localities...... (e) Government assistance to full Ayes .. 13 blood aborigines ...... Noes ...... 9 Drainage, Lockyer area, Albany .. Water supplies, (a) railway dam and Majority for .. 4 reticulation of Euntine and Pithara (b) provision of dam, Wubin .. Ayes. Traffi, (a) drunken driving...... Hon. N. E. Baxter Hon. H. L. Roche (b) pollee testing of vehicles .. Hon. A. F. Griffith Hon. C. H. Simpson ... .. Hon. J. 0. Hisiop Hon. J7.Mel. Thomson Transport, Inspeetarial staff Hon. Sir Chas. Latham Hon. H. K. Watson Statistics, farm required by department Ron. G. MacKinnon Hon. F. D. Witimot Housing, " Wandana " fiats ... .. Hon. R. C. Mattiske Hon. J1.Cunningham Collie coal, purchases by S.E.C. aad Hon. J. Murray (Teller Railways Commission ... .. Nloes. Pollee, (a) salaries of plain clothes and Hon. 0. Bennctts Hon. H. C. Strickland Suiflormed men ...... Ron. 0. Fraser Hon. J. D. Teahan (b) number of offences; .. .. Mon. J. J7. Carrigan Hon. W. F. WVillesee Hon. H. F. Hutchison Hon. F. R. H. Lavery Rlegional hospitals, (a) loation of first Hon. 0. E. Jeffery (Teller to be erected ...... (b) priority of Eunbury ... .. Pairs. Potatoes, " City of Winchester " ship- Ayes. Noes. ment Investigations...... Ron. L. C. Diver Hon. E. M. Davies Special unemployment aid, financial Hon. L. A. Logan Hon. E. M. Heenan assistance from Commonwealth .. Amendment thus passed. Juon, refreshments and other facilities Orders of the Day, consideration of censure Clause, as amended, agreed to. motion ...... Suspension or sitting ...... Title: Bills :Cornea and Tissue Grafting, Sr. .. The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Commonwealtb and State Housing move an amendment- Agreement, Message, Zr ...... That after the figures "1940" ti e Profiteering and Unfair Trading Pre- added: "-1949". vention, Zr...... following be Criminal Code Amendment, Corn., report Amendment put and passed; the TitI e, Evidence Act Amendment, 2r., Corn.. as amended, agreed to. Plant Diseases Act Amendment, Zr., Bill reported with amendments and a nCorn., report...... rt Jury Act Amendment, Message, 2r. .. amendment to the Title, and the repo: Albany Lot 184 (Validation or Title), 2r. adopted. Nurses Registration Act Amendment, 2r. Electoral Act Amendment (No. 1), 2r. Third Reading. Marketing of Potatoes Act Amendment, * Council's amendments ... .. Bill read a third time and returned the Assembly with amendments and a amendment to the Title. n *The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. Moir), Sitting suspended from 10.40 to 11.15 P.r took the Chair at 2.15 P.m., and read prayers. Assembl y's Message. ADDRESS-IN-REPLY. Message from the Assembly received ar id read notifying that it had agreed to t ie Presentation. amendments made by the Council. Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I desire to an- nounce that, accompanied by the member House adjourned at 11.18 Pi. for Albany and the member f or Murchison, 646 648[ASSEMBLY.]

I waited upon His Excellency, the Liejut.- b~ridge presents to Persons from all parts of Governor and Administrator'alid presented this State, who use the lower reaches of the 44dress-Jprre~y. to His Excellency's the Colle River? Speech'at the open ,Ing 4f Parliament. His (2) With the Possibility of a fatality Excellency was pleased to reply in the fol- occurring, could the completion of this lowing terms:- demolltion work be implemented prior to Mr. Speaker and members of the the coming summer season and what would Legislative Assembly: I thank you for the estimated cost of such work be? your expressions of loyalty to Her Most Gracious Majesty the Queen and for The MINISTER replied: your Addressi-in-reply to the Speech (1) No. with which I opened Parliament. (2) The situation will be examined. QUESTIONS. BETING. LOCAL GOVERNMENT. (a) Powers of Board. Bicameral System. Mr. JAMIESON asked the Minister for Mr. JOHNSON asked the Minister rep- Pollee: resenting the Minister for Local Govern- ment: (1) In the Betting Control Act, what section gives the board power to issue in- (1) Has consideration been given to the structions of a general nature, which have introduction of the bicameral system for the effect of regulations without their local government? being gazetted as regulations? (2) Does he know of any reason why the (2) What power hais the board to dis- bicameral system should be less effective cipline persons who contravene these in local government than in State govern- general instructions, if they are not ment? gazetted? (3) Have any non-Labour Governments The MINISTER replied: attempted to apply the bicameral system (1) Section 13, Subsection (1) of the to local governments during their term of Act and regulations Nos. 92, 108, and 109 office in this State? give the board power to issue instructions of a general nature within the scope of such The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE replied: provisions. (1) Not to my knowledge in Western The Act is authoritative in Itself; any Australia. provisions contained therein do not have (2) It does not appear that the bi- to be repeated in regulations to make them camneral system would be within the bounds effective. of possibility for local government. (2) Section 13, Subsection (6) and regu- lations Nos. 58 and 72. (3) No. (b) Position in New South Wales. RAILWAYS. Hon. D). BRAND asked the Premier: Freight and Diesels Used, Mt. Magnet (1) Has any member or official of the Line. New South Wales Government visited Mr. O'BRIEN asked the Minister rep- Western Australia with a view to investi- resenting the Minister for Railways: gating the operations of starting price betting shops? (1) What amount of money was re- (2) Does he agree with the Premier of ceived by the W.A.G.R. in freight on goods New South Wales. Mr. Cahill, who is pub- of all descriptions to Mt. Magnet during lished as saying that he would not license 1953-54, 1954-55 and 1955-56? s. p. shops in that State, because there was (2) How many "X" Class diesels, and already enough gambling? other diesels, are working on the Mt. Mag- The PREMIER replied: net-Perth line at present? (1) No. The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT re- (2) 1 am not aware of the circumstances plied: which apply to this matter in New South Wales. (1) 1953-54 ...... 40,092 1954-55 ...49,494 BRIDGES. 1955-56 47,894 Old Collie River Structure. Totals include livestock freight. Mr. ROBERTS asked the Minister for (2) Three diesel electric locomotives and Works: one diesel railcar operate the goods and (1) Is he aware of the dangerous hazard passenger services east of Mullewa each the protruding and submerged timber work week. Some of these services also extend of the old partly demolished Collie River to Geraldton. r8 September.. 1956.]

NURSING SERVICES. The MINISTER replied: (1) (a) 400 to 500 including Warburton" and Rawlinson Ranges. (b) -Between 150 and 200. Mr. MARSHALL asked the Minister for Health: (2) No statistics are available.' (1) How many girls have been awarded (3) No statistics are available. bursaries after obtaining the Junior Cer- tificate, and subsequently entered the (0) Government Assistance to Full Blood nursing profession? Aborigines. (2) What was the maximum number in Mr. ORAYDEN asked the Minister for training at the 30th June, 1958? Native Welfare:; (1) In what ways does the Government (3) H-ow many trainee nurses left, or assist full blood aborigines at the Mt. Mar- failed to qualify, during 1955-56? garet mission, the Warburton mission and The MI=STER replied: the Cosmo Newbery mission respectively? (1) Bursarles. were awarded for terms (2) What was the cost to the Govern- of one Year and two years, the first of ment of such aid during the last financial which were allotted in 1955. Of the two- year? year bursaries, of which a greater number The MINISTER replied: of awards have been made, training will (1) At the three missions the Govern- not commence until 1957, but of the ment assists the natives by the provision initial one-year bursars. 10 have already of rations and clothing or cash subsidy commenced training of a total of 13 on a per capita basis, the payment of medi- eligible. The total number of bursars at- cal, hospital, dental, transport and burial tending school Is 63. expenses, education costs (excepting at (2) 953. Cosmo Newbery where this does not ob- (3) 169. tain at present), including the salaries and transport costs of one teacher at the War- burton flanges and two at Mt. Margaret NATIVE WELFARE. and the supply of school equipment, books (a) State Population and Emnploymennt of and material. In addition, the Govern- Full Blood Aborigines. ment gives rants in aid for the provision of Capital cost items directly related to Mr. GRAYDEN asked the Minister for the needs of the inmates. At Cosmo New- Native Welfare: bery the Government provided the mission (1) What is the estimated population with an established station property, In- of full blood aborigines in Western Aus- cluding extra buildings and vehicles. tralia? (2) Mt. Margaret-flS,50l. (2) How many able-bodied adult males Warburton Ranges--E6,702. are Included In the estimated population? Cosine Newbury-f 1,591. (3) What percentage of the latter have These figures do not Include education' full-time work, and what percentage ob- and medical costs and the cost of drugs. tain part-time work? dressings and medical equipment. These The MINITER replied: expenses are not separated for each mis- sion. (1) 8.351. (2) Unknown. Estimated number of DRAINAGE. adult males is 3,359. Lockzser Area, Albany. (3) No statistics are available. Mr. HALL asked the Minister for Water supplies: (b) Population and Employmtent in Can the drainage of the Lockyer area, Specific Localities. Albany, be cantied out under the Wilson Mr. ORAYDEN asked the Minister for drainage scheme? Native Welfare: The MINISTER replied: (1) How many full blood aborigines are No. there in the- (a) Warburton flanges area; WATER SUPPLIES. (b) Laverton, Mt. Margaret. Cosmo (a) Railway Dams and Reticulation of Newbery area? Buntine and Pithara. (2) How many of these are able-bodied Mr. ACKLAND asked the Minister for adult males? Water Supplies: (3) What percentage of the latter have (1) Has the Department of Water Sup- full-time work and what percentage ob- ply taken over the control of the Railway tain part-time work? Department dams at Buntine and Pithara? (ASSEMBLY.]

(2) If this has not already been done. (b) Police Testing of Vehicies. can he advise If and when the transfer will Hon. A. F. WATTS asked the Minister be effected? for Transport: (3) Does the department intend to re- ticulate the townships of Euntine and (1) When a Police officer desires to test a motor-vehicle as to its efficiency and Pithara? suitability to he on the road, is he entitled (4) If the answer' to No. (3) is In the to require the vehicle owner to allow him affirmative, will he advise when this work to drive the vehicle for testing is likely to be completed? purposes? (2) If the owner objects, Is the police The MINISTER replied: officer still entitled to take over? (1) NO. (3) If the answer to No. (2) is in the (2) On the 1st October. 1956. affirmative, what statute or regulation (3) The department contemplates minor authorises such action? extensions and enlargements to existing (4) For what testing purpose, other than reticulation. testing brakes, is it necessary that the (4) Some work is listed for considera- vehicle should be moved along the road, tion in the 1956-57 loan programme which and cannot the brakes be tested equally has not yet been finalised. well while the owner Is driving under police supervision? (b) Provision of Dam, Wiuhin. (5) If a police officer is empowered as Mr. ACKLAND asked the Minister for referred to in No. (2), what is the posi- Water Supplies: tion if, while the vehicle is thus driven, (1) Can he advise if a damn is to be pro- it is damaged by accident or otherwise? vided for the township of Wubin? The MINISTER replied: (2) If the Water Supply Department has decided to provide water for the town- (1) Yes. ship of Wubin, when is the work to be (2) Yes. undertaken? (3) Traffic regulations Nos. 30, 37 and The MINISTER replied: 47 (1), (4) It is necessary to move a vehicle (1) Yes. along a road to test for suspension and (2) The work has been listed for con- steering defects. Stationary tests could re- sideration in the 1956-57 loan programme veal detects but the vehicle must be moved which has not yet been finalised. to test the effect thereof. TRAFFIC. (5) if a vehicle is damaged whilst being (a) Drunken Driving. driven by a police officer during examina- tion, he would be held responsible if cir- Mr. NALDER asked the Minister for cumstances proved him negligent. Transport: (1) How many licensed drivers have TRANSPORT. been charged with drunken driving, first offence, for the years ended June, 1953-54, Jnspecforial Staff. 1954-55, 1955-56- Mr. NALDER asked the Minister for (a) in the city area; Transport: (hi in the country areas? (1) How many full-time inspectors are (2) How many drivers have been engaged by the Transport Board? charged with drunken driving, second (2) How many part-time? offence, for the years ended June, 1953- (3) Do any inspectors operate full-time 1954, 1954-1955, 1955-1956- or part-time from- (a) in the city area; (a) Bunbury; (h) in country areas? (b) Albany; (3) How many drivers have been charged (c) Geraldton? with drunken driving, third offence, for the years ended June, 1953-54, 1954-55, The MINISTER replied: 1955-56- (1) Seven. (a) in the city area; (2) Five traffic inspectors employed by (h) in country areas? three local authorities have been appointed and act as inspectors under the Transport *The MINISTER replied: Act, in conjunction with their other duties. June-July, June-July, June-July. 1953-54, 1954-55. 1955-56. (3) (a) No. (1-a) 258 247 224 (b) 206 219 224 (hi Yes. Two inpectors. (2)- (A) 33 47 44 (c) Yes. Two Inspectors. (b) 29 21 32 These, as well as a part-tine inspector (31- (a) 6 5 $ operating from Harvey, comprise the five 6 5 5 traffic inspectors referred to above. [6 Septiember, 1956.164 640

STATISTICS. The MINISTER replied: Forms Required by Department. (1) Not yet. Mr. NALER asked the Minister rep- (2) See answer to No. (1). resenting the Chief Secretary: (3) Yes. Will he table a duplicate copy of all forms sent out to primary producers, pas- POICE. toralists. fishermen, miners, etc., dealing (a) Salaries of Plain Clothes and with or requiring details of production, by Uniform Men. the department handling statistics? Mir. COURT asked the Minister for The MINISTER FOR NATIVE WEL- Police: FARE replied: (1) As Press reports disclose that Con- Yes. These will be tabled next Tuesday. stable Hardy is now in plain clothes in the In addition, some statistical forms are sent Liquor Inspection Branch, is it a fact that out by other departments, such as the plain clothes policemen are paidimore than Mines and Fisheries Departments. uniform policemen? (2) If that is so, does it not mean that HOUSING. P.C. Hardy has been promoted since the "Wanzlana" Flats. Trobridge case? Mr. COURT asked the Minister for The MINISTER replied: Housing: (1) Plain clothes police are not paid any (1) (a) Are there any vacant flats in higher salary than uniform police, but re- "Wandana"? ceive an allowance of 2s. per day as com- pensation for out of pocket expenses (b) If so, how many, what types, and necessarily incurred by reason of their type what rentals are required? of work. (2) (a) What facilities exist for tenants' They also receive a clothing allowance cars? in lieu of uniform, which is paid to all (b) Are these to be improved? members of the Police Force who perform (3) Are there any structural or other duty in civilian clothes. This is calculated problems associated with the flats and is at the rate of £48 per annum. he generally satisfied with the operation (2) No. of the project? The MINISTER replied: (b) Number of Off ences. (1) (a) Yes. Mr. LAWRENCE asked the Minister for Police: (b) 12 two bedroom types. Action Is being taken to allocate. What is the increase, if any, in stealing, breaking and entering, and false pretence Three one bedroom types recently charges for the years of 1953-54, 1954-55 vacated. Action is being taken to allocate. and 1955-56? Rents range from £3 l0s. 6d. to £3 1S. 6d. The MINISTER replied; (2) (a) and (b) Parking facilities are Convictions being provided. Recorded. (3) All new projects have problems and 1953.- those associated with "Wandana" have now Stealing ...... 3,156 been overcome and I am very well satisfied Breaking and entering ... 910 with the project as a whole. False pretences ...... 334 1954 - COLIE COAL. Stealing ...... 3,072 Purchases by S.E.C. and Railway Breaking and entering ... 840 Commission. False pretences ... .. 472 Mr. MAY asked the Minister for Works: 1955-- (1) Do the State Electricity Commission Stealing ...... 3,374 and the Railway Commission know the Breaking and entering .... 924 actual price, including cost of electric False pretences ... ..1 438 power, of coal supplied to them by Amal- The above figures are far the whole gamated Collieries of W.A. Ltd. under the State for the years mentioned. cost-plus system for the hall-year ended the 30th June, 1956? REGIONAL HOSPITALS. (2) if so, what is the actual total price? (a) Location of First to be Erected. (3) Does the inability of the State Elec- Mr. HALL (without notice) tricity Commission to supply calorific value asked the of coal purchased from each company Minister for Health: mean that it purchases its coal without Where will the first regional hospital be regard to calorific value? built? 650 [ASEN11BERAT 1

The MflhIS'TER replied:. (2) If not, witllih' con~sider putting into As far as we can learn from the require- operation immnediately Government works ments of the district;: I think it will be that are Intended to take place in the at Albany. latter half of' this financial year to help absorb some of that unemploymhent. (b) Priority o1 Suntbury. The PREMIER replied: Mr. ROBERTS (without notice) asked (1) This afternoon I handed in some the Minister for Health: correspondence on this matter for tabling What priority has Bunbury in regard to for one week. the commencement of a regional hospital? (2) The Government is financing all the The INITERepled:works within its financial capacity. I will have to go into the matter and make inquiries. The needs of Geraldton JURORS. and other parts of the State are also very Rfehet n te aiiis great. Bfehet n te aiiis The MINISTER FOR HEALTH: The POTATOES. member for Nedlands Yesterday asked me a "City of Winchester" ShipmenWit, question without notice and I promised to Investigations. obanifomto for him. It is as I ol- Mr. COURT (without notice) asked the Ioa. Minister for Agriculture: I am satisfied that the best Possible h arrangements are made in regard to re- (1) Has his department investigatd tdtefreshments for Jurors, according to the cir- complaints made by the member for South cmtne ftepriua ae Fremantle during his speech on the Market- cmtne ftepriua ae ing of Potatoes Bill on the 5th September. Whilst considering their verdict, they are 1956, regarding the shipment of 60 tons of entitled to be provided with Such reason- potatoes on the "City of Winchester"? able refreshment, if any, as the court may (2) (a) If so, what is the result of the allow, but to permit them to leave the investigations? court at that stage to be given a meal (b) If not, is an investigation proposed? would be a contravention of Section 640 (3) Were the potatoes examined and of the Criminal Code. passed at some stage by his department or When a jury is locked up over a meal the board? hour and the judge allows them refresh- court officer does the best he The vilNSTERrepled:can,INITERepled:ments, oftenthe at great inconvenience, to comn- The bon. member was good enough to Ply with their requirements. Generally, give me a copy of his question before the his efforts on their behalf are appreciated House sat. The answers are as follows:- by the jurors. (1) Investigations have been made. The great majority of Jurors accept any (2) The potatoes were collected by a pri - little inconvenience they may have to suf- andexprtrraned y tht frm.fer as a necessary incident of their duties vatefirvatepor fim adarangd b tht tn.as citizens, but at the same time every (3) No application was made at Fre- effort is made to keep such inconveniences mantle for a certification of quality, and at a minimum. freedom from disease. It may be presumed that this was because the line did not meet the standard required by the Department BILL-~CORNEAL AND TISSUE ,of Agriculture before a certificate was GRAFTING. issued. The fact that no certii'date accom- Bill read a third time and transmitted Panics the consignment could mean in nor- to the Council. mal circumstances that the consignment could be rejected at its destination or could be accepted only after regrading or rebag- ORDERS OF THE DAY. ging of the potatoes. Consideration of Censure Motion. Hon. SIR ROSS McLABTY (Murray) SPECIAL EMPLOYMENT AID. [2.39]: I move- Financial Assistance from Commonwealth. That all items on the notice Paper Mr. HEAL (without notice) asked the under Orders of the Day from item 'Premier: No. 2 to item No. 23, Inclusive, and notice of motion No. 1 be postponed (1) In view of the number of new Aus- until consideration is given to item No. tralians in my electorate who are becoming 2 under notice of motion standing in unemployed, will he advise me whether he my name. has received any further notice from the ,Commonwealth Treasurer in regard to his The Minister for Transport: Taking .request for financial help? charge of the House, eh? [6 September, 1958.161 651

Han. Sir ROSS MeLARTY: When I gave Hon. Sir ROSS MeLARTY: The position notice of this motion In my name on the of course, is that the Premier has chosen notice paper I thought the Premier would to regard It as a motion from a private give It the precedence to which it is en- member, so under the best of conditions titled. It could not come on until next Wednesday. Mr. Bovell: Hear, bear! There is. no certainty it will come on even then, because let us look at the notice The Minister for Transport: That is what paper in regard to private members' busi- it got. ness. First there Is a motion standing in Hon. D. Brand: The public does not the name of the member for Leederville, think so. another in the name of the member for Blackwood, then follow five Bills from pri- Hon. Sir ROSS McLARTY: I have made vate members, another motion in the name some considerable research today in re- of the Leader of the Country Party, and gard to how motions such as this should the motion of mine comes last. it is very be treated, and bow they have been pre- doubtful indeed whether my motion will viously treated In this Parliament. In this be considered next Wednesday. Parliament we base the procedure very largely on what is known as "May's Par- The Minister for Lands: Even the kids liamentary Practice". I shall read from here are laughing at you! item No. 4, page 290 of the 15th Edition, Hon. Sir ROSS McLARTY: If the motion under the heading of "Votes of Censure". is considered next Wednesday, we do not It says- know at what hour of the day or night, By established convention the Gov- so I am moving for the postponement of ernment never fail to accede to a de- all other items on the notice paper. I take mand from the Leader of the Opposi- the strongest possible exception to the tion to allot a day to the discussion treatment meted out to the Opposition by of a motion expressing lack of confi- the Government regarding this motion. It dence in the Government, a "vote of is a complete negation of the rights of censure", as it Is called. In allotting Parliament. I would say that by its action, a day for this purpose the Government the Government has not only shown con- are entitled to have regard to the tempt for the Opposition, but it has also exigencies of their own business , but shown contempt for public opinion. a reasonably early day is invariably The Minister for Transport: Tommy rot! found. Few sessions fail to provide Hon. Sir ROSS MeLARTY: The Minis- examples of such motions. ter for Transport may just as well be in ,what do we find with regard to this on this. The more he says today, the more motion? will I be pleased. The Minister for Transport: Nothing but The Minister for Transport: I shall see tripe. if I can make you very happy. Hon. Sir ROSS McLAHTY: I shall read Hon. Sir ROSS McLARTY: Let the it so that members will have a full appre- hon, member try. ciation of the matter. The Minister for Transport:, You are Mr. Bovell: The Government is afraid- the least of my worries. Hon. Sir ROSS McLARTY: I repeat The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order'I The again that the action of 'the Government Leader of the Opposition may proceed. with regard to the treatment of this motion Hon. Sir ROSS McLARTY: This is the not only shows contempt for Parliament, motion- but shows contempt for public opinion. That the Government is deserving of Mr. I. W. Manning: That is communism. censure because of its misuse of pub- lic funds in paying £450 of the damages The Minister for Transport: That Is and costs awarded by the High Court Churchillian. against Police Coustable Hardy In the Hon. Sir ROSS MeLARTY: When simi- action brought by A. L. Trobrldge. lar motions were moved on previous occa- Mr. Bovell: The Government is afraid sions--and I have been interested In par- to face up to this issue. liamentary affairs for as long as I can remember-IAt was usually the custom to Hon. Sir ROSS McLARTY: Why the adjourn the House until a no confidence Premier has placed this motion of mine motion had been dealth with, but in latter on the notice paper below 24 other Items years that procedure has been departed is difficult to understand. from. As long as I can remember, when The Minister for Transport: That is the the Leader of the Opposition in this House proper place for it. has given notice of a motion such as the one appearing in my name, the Premier Hon. Sir ROSS MeLARTY: We shall has always given early consideration to see as we go on. I have no real indica- it, or I should say given immediate con- tion. of when this motion will come on. sideration to it. Mr. Bovell: It should be debated today. The Premier: That is better, - ASSEMBLY.]I Hon. Sir ROSS MeLARTYr- When 'the I Hon.'Sir- IOSS McLARfl: floes the Premier was the Deputy Leader of the Premier not think this motion worthy of Opposition on this side he moved a no Immediate consideration. confidence motion once and he got pre- Mr. Ross Hutchinson: This is not the cedence over other business immediately. first time the Government has done this The Premier: What did that concern? sort of thing. Hon. Sir ROSS McLARTY: The motion I-on. Sir ROSS McLARTY: Does the concerned the Black Diamond leases. Only Premier think this is a trivial matter? I formal business was dealt with that day. san not the only one accusing him of mis- The Deputy Premier when sitting in Op- use of public funds. That is also evident position moved a censure motion. A great in the daily newspapers. number of items appeared In that motion. The Minister for Transport: So that was Notice was given on Tuesday, and Wednes- where you got your inspiration from. day being the private members' day, as Hon. Sir ROSS McLARTY: The Premier soon as the formal business was completed has been accused of the misuse of public the hon. member went on with his motion. funds. Correspondence has also appeared Surely the Government has no right to in the newspapers accusing him of such regard this as a trivial matter. It appears misuse, and many people in the street are that, having a big majority, the Govern- also of the same opinion. ment considers It can do what It likes, If this is the treatment to be accorded Mr. Ross Hutchinson: What about the the Opposition, then I cannot see how it Government's use of civil servants for can function usefully in the future. securing enrolinents? Hon. Sir ROSS MOLARTY: The Leader Mr. Bovell: This H-ouse will be like the of the Country Party asked me if the Kremlin, with one political side only. Federal President of the A.L.P. was satis- Hon. Sir ROSS MCLARTY: We have fied, but we have seen the very remark- heard members of the Government speak- able state of affairs of a public protest inig about democracy, but if that is the type which has been published by the A.L.P. of action they regard as democratic, then and they have shown concern In regard we have some idea of what their definition to this action by the Government. of the word is. I ask the Premier this: The Minister for Lands: Why are you What rights has the Opposition got? If the Premier, the Deputy Premier and the looking at me? Minister for Transport were sitting on this Ron. Sir ROSS McLARTY: I do not side of the House, and in a situation like find any pleasure in looking at the Min- the present, what a fuss they would kick ister. He does not matter. up! We would be here for hours listening to them, We would be most violently Mr. Bovell: The Minister for Lands is a criticised as being dictators and as people small potato. not fit to govern. it would be described as Hon. Sir ROSS MoLARTY: We had the diabolical or by some other term which most extraordinary position of the Federal the Premier has used in the past. president of the A.L.P. and other mem- The bers of the executive voicing a protest Minister for Transport: Mind your about this matter and giving publicity to blood pressure! it. which shows they, too, were concerned Ron. Sir ROSS McLARTY: The Min- at the action of the Government in this ister need not worry about my blood pres- particular Instance. sure. What is the reason for the Govern- The Minister for Lands: Is this part of ment refusing to discuss this motion? I the campaign to whip up the energy of know the Government has its own good the Liberal Party? reasons; it does not want the motion to be discussed; it wants the motion to be Mr. Roberts: The Minister should give buried and got rid of as quickly as pos- his attention to potatoes. sible. By delaying this motion for some Hon. Sir ROSS MCLARTY: When we weeks, the Government thinks that per- read what happened in the courts, both haps public feeling will die down and in- in our own Supreme Court and the High terest will wane, thereby enabling the Court of Australia, followed by the action Government to get out of a very difficult of this Government in providing £450 to position. meet the expenses of a certain in- The Minister for Lands: Who told you dlvidual- to say this? Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I can- not allow the Leader of the Opposition to Hon. Sir ROSS McLARTY: This motion discuss the notice of motion. charges the Government with misuse of public funds. Does the Premier not think Hon. Sir ROSS MeLARTY: I think that a serious matter? probably you are right, Mr. Speaker, but my object, of course, in rising was to voice Mr. Ross Hutchinson'. The Government my strongest possible objection to the man- has done that before, ner in which this motion of mine has been (6 September, 1956.1 e53 treated. I1 think it is insulting to say the The PREMIER: The Leader of the Op- least bf It not only to myself but . o all position is of tWe opinion that his motion other members of the Opposition. It shows should have gone to the top of the notice complete contempt of our parliamentary paper and I will deal with that later on. system and I have never known this to but, in case I forget, I would be glad if happen before; I never expected that it Liberal Party members will remind me to would happen today. On the contrary, I come back to the point. thought the Premier Would take the oppor- Mr. Bovell: We would remind the Premier tunity of saying why the Government did that we have an obligation to the people this and of defending his action, because of this State as we represent a big propor- up to now he has been very silent indeed. tion. It is his usual procedure when the Govern- ment is attacked to rush into the paper The Minister for Transport: We repre- with his very familiar outbursts and come sent a bigger proportion than you do. to the aid of the Government straight The PREMIER: The state of the notice away, but in this case he would much pre- paper as it stands shows that the first item, fer to keep out of it, and that is why my apart from formal business, is legislation motion is at the bottom of the notice paper in connection with the Commonwealth and today. I think this is a scandalous state of State Governments' housing agreement. I affairs and it does not reflect any credit on suggest to members that this is very im- the Government. I wish I could discuss this portant legislation and I tell them that it motion, Mr. Speaker, but I feel your ruling is very urgent legislation and it Is essential is right. Nevertheless. I take this oppor- that it be passed through both Houses of tunity of voicing a protest against the Parliament as soon as possible. Until it despicable and dishonest action of the does become law, no building society in Government in preventing my going on Western Australia will be able to obtain with this motion today. one penny under the provisions of the The Minister for Transport: You would new agreement already made between the Governments. say nothing else. two Mr. Novell: Why do you not move for the THE PREMIER (Hon. A. R. 0. Hawke- suspension of Standing Orders as You did Northam) (2.58]: This is prompted by a in the case of potatoes? delayed outburst of election defeat bitter- The PREMIER: I am not dealing with ness. the question of moving for the suspension Mr. Hearman: You can do better than of Standing Orders. This particular item that. if the member will look at the notice Paper is already at the top, so obviously it comes The PREMIER: I do not want to do on immediately in the normal course of better than that. As far as the member events. for Blackwood is concerned, let us ap- next item on the notice paper has proach this matter rationally and not in a The UP for the to do with a Bill which the Government fit of passion or wrath whipped to prevent profiteer- occasion. It is true, as the Leader of the proposes to introduce notice of ing and to wipe out, as far as possible, opposition said, that he gave trade practices in motion in the House yesterday of his in- unfair trading and unfair Leader trade, industry and commerce. We have tention to move this motion. As heard a lot from members of the Liberal of the Government I gave consideration Party section of the Opposition in recent to its importance and its urgency in re- notice weeks about the serious economic Problems lation to business already on the which face Australia. and about inflation, paper, including both Government and which is a handicap and a burden upon private member's business, and on what industry generally and upon those people seemed to me to be a reasonable assess- in the community. ment of the importance and particularly the urgency of this motion as against Mr. Novell: Prom newspaper reports, you business which had been Put upon the were not very helpful in Canberra in solv- notice paper previously, in some cases for ing this position. days and in some cases for weeks. it The PREMIER: How can anyone discuss seemed to me it did not have any claim at intelligently the subject now before us all to go to the top of the notice paper when we have a member of the Liberal for today and it could fairly take its place Party section of the Opposition coming in in the debates in the House on Wednes- with interjections which are as silly as it day next. is possible to imagine. Mr. Bovell: As a private member's Mr. novell: That is your biased opinion. motion? The PREMIER: I do not know whether 'rho PREMIER: Yes, It comes from the the member for Vasse has been imbibing Leader of the opposition. too much potato juice, or what has gone wrong with him overnight, but he seems Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: There is no to be hoplelessly off the beam. guarantre that it will be discussed next Wednesday. Mr. Novell: Do not get abusive! WQ LiB8EZBLY.J Thp PREMIER: Prom now on I shall consider the wording of his motion to be Ignore completely anything. he might have importan t; whether I did not particularly to say. regard as very important the use of the Mr. Mday: The member for Mt. Lawley words in the motion-"nisuse of public upset him last night. funds." Of course, the Leader of any Opposition could come to Parliament every The PREMIER: Anybody with a proper second day sense of balance and not anxious to make with a motion against the party politics out of some particular sub- Government and include In it words of that ject, would freely admit that the Bill to description. A Leader of the Opposition which I am now referring is tremendously so disposed, could make it impossible for important. It is a measure which affectql the business of Parliament to proceed in the economic welfare of everyone in the an orderly fashion. community and the stability of our indus- Mr. Ross Hutchinson: It is not the in- tries, many of which are already suffering tention of our Opposition that that should under inflationary pressures of one kind happen. or another. One could run through the The Minister for Transport: No; you are rest of the Government's legislation and lily-white! from many angles it could be argued that The PREMIER: I doubt whether the most of the Government Bills listed on the member for Cottesloe knows what the real paper are of considerable Importance either intention of the Liberal Party section of to all the people of Western Australia or the Opposition is in this matter. I simply to considerable sections of them. say that the fact that these Particular Mr. Court: Would the consideration of words find a place in the motion, proves the Leader of the Opposition's motion pre- nothing at all. clude the House dealing with this business today? We have sat through to the next Mr. Ross Hutchinson: They do in the morning before this. full text. The PREMIER: We could sit through The PREMIER: They prove nothing at every night until the following morning if all. It is obvious that any Leader of the that was desirable, but it is not desirable. Opposition could, at any time he pleased. I shall deal with that angle later when I give notice of a Motion to censure the come to the motion of the Leader of the Government In connection with anything Opposition, which appears on the notice at all. paper. Mr. Bovell: This is a matter of intense Hon. A. F. Watts: You must not debate public interest. that. The PREMIER: The argument put for- The PREMIER: I do not intend to debate ward this afternoon is that the inclusion the motion but merely to make reference by the Leader of the Opposition of such to it on the basis of its comparative words as "Misuse of public funds" in the urgency with many items--not all of them. motion, makes the motion of transcendent admittedly-which are ahead of that importance and of the greatest urgency. motion on the notice paper, and which are I say it does nothing of the kind. ahead' of it by virtue of a proper ordering We can only Judge the importance of of priorities under our Standing Orders. words in a particular setting when we first Private members have rights, as we give attention to the source from where know, in connection with the priority they came, and also give consideration to which is to be given to private members' the purpose for which they are used. We business. If members care to look at the have all been here long enough to know private members' business, they will find that when a situation arises which might, that some of the items are of considerable on the surface, appear to be against the importance. I am prepared to go this far Government and favourable to the Opposi- and say that if the private members con- tion, the Opposition is naturally not slow cerned-those who have business upon the to try to take advantage of it; and when notice paper-have no objection to the the Opposition tries to take advantage of motion of the Leader of the Opposition the situation, it does not use soft language having pride of place next Wednesday, the in any motion which it Puts forward. It Government will have no objection. gets hold of words which are strong, which Mr. Ross Hutchinson: You should not are suggestive, which are likely to appeal have any objection to it taking pride of to anyone who might read them, whether he understands the basis of the situation place here, now. as a whole, or not. So. the fact that the The PREMIER: We will come to that motion contains particular words proves later. nothing at all. Mr. I. W. Manning: Do you not view Mr. Court: If the words are taken with this accusation seriously? the whole motion, the meaning is more than if you just take the words out on their The PREMIER: I shall come to that in a few moments if the member for Harvey own. does not mind. The Leader of the Opposi- The PREMIER: I suggest it proves noth- ticn wanted to know whether I did not ing at all, and I repeat that. [6 Septembe, 1956. 655

Mr. Bovell:- Let t4U Parliament decide motion was not at the top of today's whether -it does or. n,ot. notice -paper. I will take members back to the. 5th September, 1951, 'and I will. The PREM'IER: it is strange; is it not. show what the Leader of the Opposition that the official section of the opposition -he stood up a quarter of an hour or suddenly finds itself in a. situation where 20 minutes ago and raved and ranted. it has to proceed at breakneck speed. and talked about democracy, contempt of Mr. Hearman: That is what the Govern- the Opposition and contempt of public ment did last night on potatoes. opinion--did to a censure motion which The first move made in I moved at that time against his Govern- The PREMIER: ment. the House by the opposition in connection with this matter was made last night when Mr. Bovell: Were you the Leader of the Leader of the opposition gave notice the Opposition? of this motion. The PREIERl: It does not matter Mr. I. W. manning: The mention of whether I was or not. breakneck speed seems strange, coming Mr. Bovell: Yes, it does. from the Premier. Hon. Sir Ross MCLarty: Of course, it The PREMIER: As far as I remember, does. the decision made by the Govermn n connection with this matter was made at The PREMIER: It does not. least three weeks ago, and probably as Mr. Bovell: You were not the Leader long as five weeks ago. So obviously the of the Opposition. even in the matter has not been urgent, If the censure motion- minds of the opposition, until the last The PREMIER: day or two. In those circumstances, there Hon. Sir Rosa McLarty: I can remember is no justification for doing as members how you treated a censure motion moved of the i.beral Party section of the Oppo- by a private member, the former member sition have demanded this afternoon, and f or East Perth, Mr. T. J. Hughes. that is to put this motion on the top Of The PREMIER: -did not come from today's notice paper. the Leader of the Opposition at that time- Hon. D. Brand: How was it that the Mr. Bovell: It did not. long? A.LP. deputation was delayed so Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty: It did not The PREMIER: I suggest that if the come from the Leader of the Opposition. member for Greenough wants some in- The PREMIER: -1 was acting on be- formation on that point he had better half of the Leader of the Opposition when consult the members of that deputation. I moved that motion, and the Opposition Hon. D. Brand: I just thought it was a had previously decided to move it as a similar point. motion of censure. The PREMIER: This afternoon the Mr. Bovell: Then why did not your Leader of the opposition tried to bring leader move It? "May's Pariamentary Practice" to his The Minister for Lands: What has that aid: but as he quoted from that volume he to do with you? read did not prove his point. He had to The PREMIER: If I remember rightly- out that even that great expert of parlia- that a motion in- Mr. Bovell: Because I was a member mentary procedure said recollect volving censure upon a, Government should of this Parliament at that time, I be debated at a reasonably early date. I the occasion. can imagine the sort of debate which The PREMIER: -the Leader of the would go on here if we were to argue Opposition was not in Western Australia what was intended by this expert on Par- at the time. liamentary Procedure by the use of the The Minister for Police: That stumped words, "reasonably early date." The him. Leader of the Opposition became almost apopletic- Mr. Bovell: Then the present Premier of the Opposition at Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: Do not get per- was acting as Leader sonal! that time. that be so? The PREMIER: -in what he had to The PREMIER: Would say- Mr. novell: I do not know; but I do you were. Mr. Bovell: The Premier cannot help not think being personal!I The PREMIER: You do not? The PREMIER: -about the Govern- Mr. novell: No. He talks about complete ment's action. PREMIER: If the hon. member negation of democracy; contempt of the The of the public and has finished interjecting, I will proceed. opposiion; contempt he would have done better if, in all tl: ! rest of it. This was all based upon I think on his his last interjection, he had finished with a tremendous upsurge of anger have been part because L-s particular notice of the word 'think"; he would [ASSEMMBY.] nearer the mark. I moved a motion of The Minister for Works: This much is censure against the Government led by the certain; It was not less than the time given present leader of the Opposition In con- in this instance. nection with a tremendous additional bur- Ron. Sir Rtoss McLarty: I can imagine den which was to be Imposed upon the what You would say if you were over here people of Western Australia in regard to In similar circumstances. the price which they were to pay for but- ter. Where did the leader of the Opposi- The PREMIER: So it Is not possible to tion, after he received this notice of check up as to whether a notice of motion motion- was given a day before, two days before or a week before. The fact is that the notice Mr. 1. W. Manning: That was a buttery of motion was given; that it was a censure one. motion against the Government and the The PREMIER: Of course, it was a Leader of the Opposition pushed it right. buttery one! It was a situation where the down the notice paper. consumers, the general public in this Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: How long did State, were going to be called upon to you have to wait before it was discussed? pay a tremendously increased price for the The PREMIER: I think other members essential commodity of butter. Although have comprehended what I said a moment that might mean little or nothing to the ago which was to the effect that the records member for Harvey- do not include the information necessary to Mr. 1. W. Manning: It might have be able to judge that. meant a lot. Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: You have put Mr. Ross Hutchinson: It was nothing this motion down and it may not come up compared with the principle involved in for weeks. this motion. The PREMIER: I have already said this The Minister for Transport: You would afternoon that if other members who have be a great Judge of that! business on the notice paper are prepared to give pride of place next Wednesday to The PREMIER: It was a censure the motion of the Leader of the Opposition, motion. the Government will be quite happy to Mr. I. W. Manning: A frivolous one co-operate in having the matter debated. compared with this. Mr. Bovell: The Government is treating The PREMIER: The hon. member might the Opposition with contempt as is done think so, but it does not affect the issue in Russia. There is no Opposition there as to the urgency which should be given and there will not be any here if the Gov- by a Government to a censure motion. ernment adopts these tactics. What was the attitude of the present The PREMIER: I would say that the Leader of the Opposition at that time? Government does not treat the opposition Did he follow "May's Parliamentary with contempt even if the behaviour and Practice"? Did he follow the lines of his inane interjections of the member for outburst here this afternoon? Did he say Vasse would justify the Government in that the Government was being challenged treating him at least in that fashion. by way of a censure motion and therefore the issue should be dealt with and cleared The Minister for Transport: Hear, hear! up one way or the other as quickly as Mr. Bovell: That is just what I would possible? Of course he did not. expect from you. Mr. Heal: What did he do? The PREMIER: Then the hon. member The PREMIER: He Put the item right has not been disappointed. down at the end of the notices of motion Mr. Bovell: No. on private members' day. Wednesday, the 5th September. 1951. The PREMIER: Let me read the type of notice of motion which was considered, Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: When was the on the decision of the Leader of the notice given? Opposition when he was Premier, ahead The PREMIER: There is no record of the censure motion which I moved as of that. soon as the opportunity was given to me. I shall not read the Government notices Hon. Sir Ross MoLarty: If you look at because they would not take long to con- the records you will probably find that you sider. There was one by the member for gave notice of it on the Tuesday prior to Fremantle in connection with extensions to that Wednesday. the Fremantle harbour. The PREMIER: We have had the records Mr. Bovell: Was he the Leader of the checked and if the Leader of the Opposi- Opposition? tion had checked them, as he should have done, he would know that there is no record The PREMICER: Oh, Mr. Deputy Speaker! Indicating when a notice of motion is The Minister for Transport: Chuck him given. out! (6 September. 1956.]65 657 The PREIMR: How the hon. member when they are Ministers, that they have came to get on to the front bench I shall to take an attitude entirely different from never know. that which they might have adopted some The Minister for Pollee: He will be the Years before when they were members of next Minister for Police. the Opposition. The PREMIER: The next notice of Mr. Court: I still think that we are motion was one from my colleague on the more orderly and more reasonable than right, the present Minister for Works. you were whilst in Opposition. Mr. Bovell: I certainly would not get The PREMIER: Of course the hon. a hearing through your efforts, that is one member is. thing!1 Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Did the Premier The PREMIER: This motion dealt with think that there would be no strong op- the Increase of Rent (War Restrictions) Position from members on this side of the Act Amendment Bill. Then there was a House because the motion had been placed notice of motion by the member for Black- well down on the notice paper? wood, Mr. Hearman, for a select commit- The PREMER: I still say that if the tee to be appointed to Inquire into the members of the Liberal Party section of agricultural practices of one, Mr. Eric the Opposition were to compare this Farleigh. My notice of motion was the motion with other business on the notice next one and this was the last of all the Paper, they could not reasonably complain notices of motion that were considered that the motion was not brought forward and debated on that particular Private for debate today. members' day in September, 1951. Mr. Ross Hutchinson: You have not So it becomes as clear as anything can answered my question. Did you think possibly become clear, that the Leader of there would be no strong opposition on the Opposition has, this afternoon, adopted this side as the result of the motion being a very lofty attitude on democracy and placed low down on the notice paper? on the treatment by the Government of the Opposition, but it is an attitude that The PREMIER:, 'Yes, I did think that is totally different from the practical at- there would be no strong opposition. titude he adopted when he had the power, Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Are you really as Premier of the State, in that month of serious when you say that? September, 1951. The PREMIER: Of course I am. Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: There is no doubt about what I would have done with a Hon. D. Brand: You made a statement motion of this kind when I was Premier, a short while ago that some of us have and there is no doubt what you would have been here long enough to know what goes done if I had treated you in the same way on. as I have been treated. H-on. Sir Ross McLarty: Do you honestly think that I would not have risen to say The PREMIER: There is no doubt what something about the treatment that you the Leader of the Opposition will do when have meted out to us in regard to this he is still Leader of the Opposition. We motion? are ail aware of that situation. We have all been in public life long enough to The PREMIER: No, I did not think that know that we would do very many things the Leader of the Opposition would not whilst we are over on that side of the rise and say something about it, but that House and what we would do whilst we is not the question that the member for are over here. Even the newer members Cottesloe asked. of Parliament. including the member for Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Nedlands, would know that aLsituation can It was very close be quite different when a member Is sit- to it. ting on the Government side of the House The PREMIER: No, it was not close to as against what It would be when he was it at all. So I say that this motion will be sitting on the Opposition side. debated next Wednesday and the Govern- ment will have no objection to its being Mr. Court; I have found that out when debated next Wednesday. I have read the speeches made by you when in Opposition. Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: Only as a pri- vate member's The PREMIER: Of course, the member business. for Nedlands would find that out when The PREMIER: I do not know about reading the speeches of anybody who at that. Every member who wishes to parti- some time was a Minister of the Crown cipate will be able to take part in the de- and then at another time was a member bate. We could extend the time for the of the Opposition. That Is only natural. debate to midnight and perhaps beyond Quite often it Is found that Ministers have if the Leader of the Opposition wanted almost complete information about a that to happen in order that the debate situation and have sources of information could be completed in the one sitting. that could not be available to a member of However, I say again that there is nothing the opposition and so they find, at times, desperately urgent about the motion, It I1ASSEMBLY-A is not a motion that could fade out. -I have been staged this afternbnt. -:It could is not a motion that could somehow.,-drop havle been finished today.. The 'newspapers. -off the notice paper -and not be discussed. would have bad a feast on it' tomorrow In the circumstances, it seems to me that and perhaps the following day and in a the fact that this motion will not be 'de- week's time that would have been that. bated until next Wednesday, is not serious But the Government, by postponing the at all. There is nothing to get excited. debate on the subject, is keeping the mat- or even hot under the collar about. There ter alive for a week longer than btherwise would be just as much achieved by hav- would have been the cease. From that ing a debate on it next Wednesday as angle alone the Government has somne- there would be by having a debate on it thing to lose and nothing to gain. and the today. Opposition has something to gain and Mr. Court: Do not you think that the nothing to lose. public will be incensed about this? Mr. Roberts: In that case, let us get on our way. The PREMIER: I know the public fairly well. I have had a lot to do with the Hon. D. Brand: We will forgo our ad- public over the years and I know what vantage and debate the motion today. happens. I know, for instance, how a The PREMIER: It is not a question of newspaper can highlight a particular sub- forgoing an advantage: it Is a question ject and that something more important of trying to weigh the relative importance can be pushed away on a back page and and urgency-and I emaphasise the word given no headlines at all. "urgency"-of all the other subjects on Mr. Court: Like births, marriages and the notice paper as against this particular deaths. motion, I say again that if a rational assessment is made of the urgency of all The PREMER: The member for Ned- the items upon the notice paper, no one lands is an expert in propaganda, He could say that this particular motion is knows what can be done. entitled to have a place above all others. Mr. Court: You flatter me! The PREMIER: I would say that the HON. A. F. WATTS (Stirling) [3.303: niember for Nedlands is no babe in the I propose to be extremely rational in regard wood. He defeated the Grayden technique to this matter-even more rational, I think, and I might say, with respect, that the than was the Premier. Grayden technique Is something out of Mr. Ross Hutchinson: That would not be this world. So the member for Nedlands difficult. knows as well as I know that if a news- Hon. D. Brand: Conservatively rational. paper sets out to drop a particular issue, it can. Hon. A. F. WATTS: I do not propose either to be pushed into any reference Mr. Hearinan: Of course, it can also as to the intrinsic or other merits or de- take up a particular issue. merits of the motion which is on the notice The PREMIER: Of course it could. A paper for next Wednesday in the name of newspaper, if it so desired, could crucify the Leader of the Opposition, because I do any member of this House. not think that has anything whatever Mr. Bovell: It gives you a good spin! to do with the question now before the House. I think that all we have to con- The PREMIER: I understand the mem- sider is the position of the Leader of Her ber for Vasse is very jealous about that. majesty's Opposition in a British Parlia- Mr. Bovell: I could not be jealous of ment-and that is what this is-and the Premier. the traditions and customs which usually have been applied, and which in my opi- The PREMIER: Thank you. That is nion still should be applied to motions by the nicest thing the hon. member has ever the Leader of the Opposition whether they said about me. So we should be sensible be good, bad or indifferent. about this matter. It is a subject that could be debated fully and quite decisively The Leader of the Opposition of any in a week's time. legislature is himself the best judge, and Hon. Sir Ross MoLarty: It is good poli- he is entitled, I would suggest, to put tical tactics for you to delay it as long as his reasons forward. They may not ap- possible. pear entirely in the terms of the motion, but he is entitled to put them forward The PREMIER: I do not agree with at the quickest possible time; and that has that at all. been the practice in this House so far Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty: Oh, yes! as I can remember-although the Premier Indicated that he had an occasion when The PREMIER: Oh, no! If the Goy- such had not been done. Let us suppose erment had looked at this issue from a for a moment that that is so. party political point of view, it would have been debated this afternoon. That would The Minister for Works: There is no have suited the Government because It need to suppose it; it was so. would have meant that the debate would Hon. A. F. WAITS: Was it? (6 September, -1056.1 6595 The Minister for Works: Yes. -he moved it, there was a hiatus of ap- pioimateiy 28 hours, and not of one week. Hon. A. F. WAITS: We Will look at So as I said a moment ago, the circum- it In a few moments, and we will then stantbs are -not on all fours with those that -e whether It is on all fours with this happen to exist In this case. I also repeat ease. We will suppose for a moment that 'that bad notice of motion been given on It was so. In that case, following on what Tuesday, and had It not been brought on I have remarked a moment or two ago, till today, in all the circumstances I would it would Indicate that the head of the not have offered any objection, nor would I Government and the Leader of the House be supporting this motion. But that is not at that time was in error in postponing, what the hon. gentleman did at all. He as the Premier indicated had been done keeps the Leader of the Opposition waiting for a considerable time, a motion of cen- for a week. I do not want to see the sure on butter Prices which he had then systems, as I have seen them exist here desired to Move. fairly clearly for a long period of years, I think You will agree, Sir, that although abrogated or destroyed. it occurred in that case-supposing It were Although we here Indulge in very con- as I said and the Leader of the Govern- siderable conflict and argument, there has ment had been in error-it does not justify been, through all the time that any one a repetition of the error now. So far as Of us; can remember in this House, a re- I know, two wrongs have never made one lationship that has been satisfactory be- right satisfactorily, and it seems to me tween both sides of the Chamber. That that there are much sounder precedents ought to be preserved. I1do not think the and a much greater tradition directed at action taken in this matter is consonant giving the Leader of His or Her Majesty's with it, and I would like the Premier to Opposition in this legislature a consider- think that over. There is more than one able measure of priority. way of doing a thing. I listened very atten- Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Hear, hear! tively to the Premier's speech and I hoped he would say in the course of It that he 'Hon. A. F. WATTS: At least he should went to the Leader of the Opposition last not be held up for a week. That is the night and told him that it would not be part that appeals to me. Had notice of suitable for him the Premier, to have this motion been given on Tuesday last and matter discussed before a week or more. the notice of motion not brought on until Apparently, however, that did not take today, in circumstances of which we were place. I suggest that it has taken place all well aware, I should not now be on my in past times when one side or the other feet supporting the Leader of the Opposi- has thought that something else was more tion, as I would suggest that would have urgent. been, in all the circumstances, a reason- The Premier: It did not take place in -able hiatus of time. But this is not a September, 1951. reasonable one. in the face of all that has gone before and the relationships that Hon. A. F_ WATTS: It should have. I have existed and should exist between the say again if it did not, it still does not Government and the Opposition in a legis- Justify a repetition of it, or an abrogation lative Chamber of this character, I can of a standard which existed for many years comne to no other conclusion but that the before, and which, I hope, will continue to Leader of the Opposition has, to say the exist for many years in the future. least of it, been treated somewhat scurvily. If the facts are as the Premier states-- I would like to point out to the Premier I cannot contradict them, therefore I must that the circumstances to which he re- accept them-I say that the Leader of the ferred in regard to the motion on the Government in 1951 was in error. But butter prices are not by any means on the fact that be was in error does not make all fours with this case, because he moved it any better under the present circum- that motion within about 28 hours of the stances. I repeat that two wrongs do not time he gave notice of it. If one looks make a right. I can only ask the Premier at the notice paper of the 4th September, to take up a different attitude on this mat- 1951, one will find that there Is no trace ter, if he will. Then I have no doubt that thereon of any motion about butter in the question before the House will be with- the name of the Premier, or, as he was drawn, and the motion standing In then, the member for Northam. the name of the Leader of the Op- position will proceed with the con- The Minister for Works: And Leader of currence of the Premier. If the the Opposition. Premier does not give his concurrence Hon. A. F. WATTS: Therefore prior to in the circumstances I have outlined, I shall that day he had not given notice of it. have no alternative but to Support the It does appear on the notice paper of the Leader of the Opposition. 5th September, 1951. and on that day he moved it at 8.55 pim.; quite a reasonable THE MUISTER FOR WORKS (Hon. time of the day. So as the House met at J. T_ Tonkin-Melville) 13.411: In an 4.30 on the 4th, and presumably he gave endeavour to explain away a very notice forthwith, and at 8.55 on the 5th awkward precedent for the action which 660 660ASSFliBLY.1 the premier has taken, the member for 1951 and that which has occurred today, Stirling relies upon the statement that inasmuch as in '1951 the Leader of the the 'present Leader of the Opposition was Opposition,..as a private member, gave in error when he did not affiord the op- notice of a censure motion and his notice portunity for the censure motion moved was not accorded any precedence at all, by the then Leader of th& Opposition but took its ordinary place on the notice to be debated. If the then Premier, and paper amongst private members' business the present Leader of the Opposition was for the following day. In this instance, in error, so was the member for Stirling the Leader of the Opposition gave notice because he was the Deputy Premier. I of a censure motion, but he gave notice on am absolutely certain that the Premier private members' day. would not have taken the action without Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: Does it matter consulting the Deputy Leader. with a motion of this kind, on what day Hon. A. F. Watts: Do not try to be notice is given? spurious because you do not know what happened! The MINISTEIL FOR WORKS: Let me show precisely the procedure which has The MINISTER FOR WORKS: More taken place because there is only one dif- especially as the Deputy Leader was also ference in this case, and I shall show what the Leader of a separate party in this Par- it is in a moment; and it is not to the liament and therefore more entitled to be disadvantage of the Government. consulted than 1, in the samte circum- stances. So it can almost be taken as a In 1951, we had a situation where the certainty that the then Deputy Premier, then Leader of the Opposition gave notice the member for Stirling, knew quite well of a censure motion against the Govern- how the Premier was framing the notice ment. If any credence is to be placed on paper for the following day. There is this the argument of the present Leader of the difference. The present Leader of the Opposition, what he should have done then Opposition gave notice of his motion on was to have accorded precedence to that Wednesday, which is the private mem- censure motion so that it would have been ber's day, and it could not be debated that the first business of the next day. But he day. If it took its ordinary place on the did not do that: he allowed it to take Its notice paper it would come up for consid- ordinary place on the notice paper. eration on the following Wednesday. Mr. Ross Hutchinson: That is in the Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: Oh! past: what about the present? The MINISTER FOR WORKS: it is all The MINISTER FOR WORKS: The next right for the Leader of the Opposition to day, which was private members' day- say, "Oh," but let us deal with what he Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: This might be did. The precedent which the Premier a week or two weeks. used was one where he gave his notice on the Tuesday, and not on a Wednesday. The MINI5STER FOR WORKS: It was private members' day. The then Premier Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: Does it matter did not accord it any precedence whatever; on what day I gave notice? he did nothing about it. it took Its place The MINISTER FOR WORKS: It makes on the notice paper as would a motion a lot of difference. moved by any other private member on any Hon. Sir ROSS McLarty: Of course it other business. does not. Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: It was dealt with The MINISTER FOR WORKS:, As a in a reasonable time. private member he gave notice on a Tues- The MINISTER FOR WORKS: The day and it would automatically find its member for Stirling tried to get over that place on the notice paper among private awkward one by saying it was an error. members' business on the following day. He admits it should not have been done That was what happened and it was not that way. He could not do otherwise, see- debated out of its turn. As a matter of ing the arguments he adopts now. He says fact, the member for Blackwood was given it was an error. It was an error which he, precedence with a motion for the appoint- himself, also committed. ment of a select committee to deal with lime and sulphur. Nobody can by any Mr. Ross Hutchinson: How about getting stretch of the imagination say that that on to the present one? was an urgent matter or that it would if the motion The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I shall cause any serious dislocation make this speech in my own way. The were delayed for a week. member for Stirling would know full well Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Does that make how his leader was going to treat this this action by the Premier right? censure motion, because my own experience Sitting suspended from 3.45 to 4.4 p.m. enables me to know that immediately there is any suggestion of a censure motion, the The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Before leader of the Government confers with his the suspension I was endeavouring to estab- deputy and more especially would it be lish that there was not much difference done in this case because the member for between the situation which occurred in Stirling was the leader of a separate party. [6 Septembe,.1956.$66 661

Mon. Sir Ross MoLarty: Did the Premier -The MINISTER FOR WORKS: -in an confer with you yesterday?. endeavour to prove his case. -To justify The MINISTER FOR WORKS: He cer- the course which be has followed, he tainly mentioned it to me when he was quoted extracts from "May's Parliamentary drawing up the notice paper. Of course he Practice." If one searches the Hansards of the Parliament of Western Australia. did. one will find not only one precedent-- Hon. Sir Ross MoLarty: And you decided the one which has been mentioned by where you would put it. me-but a number of others also where The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Did not motions moved in similar circumstances the Premier explain that, and the reasons were accorded similar treatment. There for it? We find that in 1951, the Leader is nothing new in this and the Govern- of the Opposition moved a censure motion. ment was entitled to accord this motion It was known by the then Premier and the the importance which the Government be- Deputy Premier but they did nothing about lieved it was entitled to receive. The Gov- according it precedence;, they allowed it to ernment did not think that there was any- go on in the ordinary way. thing in this motion which would justify Let us take one of the motions that was putting it at the head of the notice paper discussed ahead of it-a motion moved by -at least in front of important Govern- the member for Blackwood on lime super ment business. mixture as a fertiliser. That was supposed If the matter is looked at dispassionately to be of more importance than the censure by an unbiased observer, and the two cases motion moved by the Leader of the Opposi- are examined carefully, the only conclu- tion, so the member for Blackwood was sion which can be drawn is that this Gov- allowed to proceed to try to persuade the ernment has not acted differently from House that a select committee should be what has been the position heretofore nor appointed to go Into the question of lime differently from its predecessors in office- super as a fertiliser. In the ordinary It has taken the ordinary normal course course, the Leader of the Opposition got which follows the moving of such a motion his opportunity to move his censure motion. in such circumstances. The member for- in this instance, what has happened is that Stirling addressed himself only to that the Leader of the Opposition gave notice aspect and endeavoured to show that the. on private members' day and it has taken instance we quoted, of what happened in its place on the notice paper amongst 1951, was committed in error and there- private members' business. fore it was no justification for the Gov- Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: That is a. mere ernment's acting in the way it has done splitting of straws. in this case. The MINISTER FOR WORKS: There is I do not think there is much strength not a shadow of difference up to this point in that argument in view of the fact that. in what transpired in each case, but here he knew very well at the time what was is the real difference: The Leader of the being done and he is not the man to fall Opposition in 1951-the present Premier- so easily into errors on procedure. if he made no protest. had been some newcomer to Parliament, without much knowledge of parliamentary The Premier: He took it. procedure, and with no astuteness, one The MINISTER FOR WORKS: He did might have accepted that statement; but not get up in this House and endeavour to he is not the type to fall into a simple alter the notice paper and take the busi- error like that when it is a Question of ness out of the hands of the Government; what treatment shall be accorded a motion he accepted the situation. of censure moved by the Leader of the Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Why? Opposition. So I think we can dispose The Premier: Because that was the of any suggestion that what the McLarty- WVatts Government did in 1951 was done Government's decision. in error. The MINISTER FOR WORKS: The rea- I-on. Sir Ross MeLarty: You have satis- sons do not matter. fled yourself, anyway. Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Yes, they do. The MINISTER FOR WORKS: And I The MINISTER FOR WORKS: The think I would satisfy most people who important thing is that the then Leader examined the facts. Not only do we rely of the Opposition accepted the situation on that precedent- without protest; he waited his turn on Mr.' Ross Hutchinson: Your action is: the notice paper and then dealt with his right because the other Government did. motion. That is the only difference in something. the two instances. In this case the Leader of the Opposiltion gets up and puts on The MINISTER FOR WORKS: -but. a show- there are numerous other cases also. Mr. Evans: And what a show it was! Mr. Ross Hutchinson: No. Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: You are a show The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Yes, on your own! there are. Mr. Ross Hutchipson: You have taken Hen. D. Brand: What a profound state- up the time of the House for the last half ment. coming from "aul hour. telling us about only one. The MINISTER FOR WORKS: It is The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Yes. definitely not getting the Leader of the and it is well worth spending a lot of time Opposition 'very far. In discussing. I know the hon. member does not like it, but I am not here to say things he likes to hear. HON. D. BRAND (Greenough) [4.191: I believe that we could talk about pre- Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Your case is very cedents all night; but the utterances of the trivial. You are not at home at all today. Minister for Works, in regard to the then The MINISTER FOR WORKS: If mem- Leader of the Opposition, the present Pre- bers opposite want any other precedents mier, accepting the then Government's they will find plenty of them, where decision quietly and without challenge only motions of censure moved in these circum- go to prove that the present Premier knew stances, or similar circumstances, have that no injustice was being done to him come on as private members' business. So and that an opportunity to debate his they have no case. motion would be given to him on that day. There would be no opposition from us if Hon. D. Brand: Can you name any one we felt that later on this afternoon we in particular. would be given an opportunity to debate The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Yes, one the censure motion which the Leader of that comes to my mind was in the time the Opposition wishes to move. when Philip Collier was Premier, shortly The minister for Works: You should alter I entered Parliament. have given notice on Tuesday. Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: Who moved the Ron. Sir Ross McLarty: That is terribly motion of censure? weak. The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I could Hon. D. BRAND: As the Leader of the not say offhand but I could find out in a Opposition said, the Minister for Works' few minutes, after I sit down. The in- interjection is very, very weak. Matters of formation might prevent the Leader of urgency and subjects on which the Op- the Opposition from falling into the same position, rightly or wrongly, may desire to error in future. move motions of censure, come up Un- Mr. Andrew: Impossible! expectedly- Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Because he bad The Minister for Works: You knew the temerity to move a motion. something about this five weeks ago. The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Tem- Hon. D. BRAND: -as they did when erity! I could find a better word for it the members of the present Government than that. An impartial observer would were on this side of the Chamber. Those say that no case against the Government's motions have to be moved when and how action in arranging the notice paper in the Opposition believes they should be this way has been presented this afternoon. moved. No one can deny that the subject The last man who should have objected is matter of the Leader of the Opposition's the present Leader of the Opposition who, motion is not of a high priority and not strange as it may seem, had the oppor- a matter of importance today. Members tunity to show what he thought ought to have only to read the Press, during the be done with censure motions and demon- last few weeks, to realise that there Is a strated that nothing should be done and demand for an explanation of the Govern- that these motions should take their ordin- ment's action in this matter. That is why ary Place on the notice paper. the Opposition is censuring the Govern- Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: It shows what ment. the present Premier thought of it at the when speaking, the Premier asked why time. He did not even utter a Protest we had delayed giving notice of this about it. motion. We have been waiting-and we The MINISTER FOR WORKS: It shows have waited a reasonable time-for some that he accepted the position that the reply to the criticism and publicity which Government was In charge of the House has been given to this matter over recent and in charge of the notice paper. weeks-it has not come from our side of the House but from private sources and Hon. Sir Ross MoLarty: He is not the through the Press itself. Therefore, hav- type to take anything like that lightly if ing allowed that time, we felt that we he thought he was right. could not permit another week to pass The MINISTER FOR WORKS: The without challenging the Government and Leader of the Opposition is endeavouring asking it why it had not explained the to make as much noise as possible. situation to the general public. Mr. Evans: That is why he is the Leader Mr. Toms: Let the Press keep it UP for of the Opposition. another week. E6 September, 1956.1

Hon. D). BRAN!): -Th-fPess may keep it .-t is exactly three weeks ago -today that up .for another month! We are not- In- all the papers dealing with the -case were terested. We have decided to Press the laid upon the Table of this House. Apart Government for a* reply at this stage and from a few questions, the overwhelming that is the reason why we are challenging maj ority of which have been asked. in the the Government on its decision to place past few days. the Opposition has not been this motion well down on the notice paper. in the least concerned about this matter. However, we have found that the daily I would imagine that the Minister for Press has been conducting a concentrated Police, as a new Minister in this Govern- campaign over the past few days and the ment, would have been delighted to have Opposition feels that it should jump on had this issue debated and put out of the the bandwagon. What is the urgency of way. I should imagine that he is at a loss the matter today that did not exist a week to know why his leader has not allowed ago or a few weeks ago? the debate to come on. As the Deputy Pre- mier has pointed out, although there might Mr. Bovell: The Press is expressing pub- have been previous precedents of Govern- lic opinion, ments taking similar action, there art also precedents showing that the Government The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: The had allowed such a motion to be dealt with Press is not expressing public opinion. I forthwith. However, where a Government will give a few examples to the House to is censured by individuals, and the Press show that that is not so. I well remember, also offers Its criticism by publishing such in this Chamber, being chided by the headlines as "The Government has Made a Leader of the Opposition, the member for Great Botch of this Matter," surely the Pre- Vasse and the member for Dale in connec- mier should supply an answer, because we tion with the terrible things the Govern- are anxious to know the answer. ment had done about land resumptions. I remember how we were told that the Not only the Opposition, but also the people were in a state of uproar; that they Premier's own political party has taken a were holding protest meetings; that this keen interest in this matter, because we was the burning question of the day and read in the Press about a proposed depu- that we would be finished as a Government tation to the Minister for Police and the when we met the people at the polls. As like. I should imagine that it would be in everybody in his sane moments knows, par- the interests of the whole Parliament if ticularly members of Parliament, that was this motion by the Leader of the Opposition a campaign whipped up by "The West Aus- were allowed to proceed and the whole mat- tralian" and it was kept going and fea- ter aired today. The people who are in- tired for a period of 12 months, but the volved in this unfortunate affair would also public as a whole did not care twopence be happy, I1feel sure, to have it dealt with about it. and put out of the way. Mr. Court: I do not think that is correct. Therefore, let us press the Government for a decision to give us an opportunity- Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: Of course, it is each member in this House-to express our not correct. thoughts on a topic that is on everybody's lips today, and in particular, ask why the The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: I do Government took the action it did In pay- not care whether It is or not, but I know ing the £450 damages in the case referred that the Government came back with in- to. I1 imagine that there will be many creased numbers and I am aware that these speakers on this question because they are people who were making the protests cam- amazed at the decision of the Govern- paigned in my own electorate but I was ment not to have this matter dealt with, returned with an all-time record majority especially in view of its vital public and further, I do not know of any member interest. of the Government who suffered any em- barrassment because of that campaign. Of Mr. May: It was a different story on course, the Opposition was most vocal be- potatoes last night, was it not? cause its members thought that, because something appears in their Bible, "The THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT West Australian', such a report surely sums (Hon. 1-. E. Graham-East Perth) up the situation. From experience, I sug- [4.24]: In my opinion, the important gest to them that they might have a look consideration in this question is at the situation from the opposite point whether it is proper that the Government of view. I will now quote a second example of the day should be pushed around by an because it affects me personally. There irresponsible daily Press and whether the was all the hubbub and uproar in con- Governnent should have the business of nection with the Subiaco flats project. We the courrv t Fkrcn out of its hands by the were led to believe by the previous member OpposH - facts of the situation are for Sublaco. that the people in that dis- that i :ago since the member trict were incensed, However, what do for Bu-' -d for information on the we find? The elections are held and, for case al.'h the proposed resolution the first time in 20 years, a Labour man by the the Opposition deals. is elected to represent that electorate. 664 664ASSflWLY.

Hon. Sir Boss MoLarty: Beer and smokes. the Important legislation of the State to you know! play up to the vanity of the Leader of The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: I the Opposition. think the Leader of the Opposition is cast- Hon. Sir Ross MoLarty: You had weeks ing very grave reflection on his Federal to deal with the important legislation. leader, and also on the members of the The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: public. Judging by the efforts we heard from the Hon. D. Brand: Take your tongue out Leader of the Opposition this afternoon, of your cheek!I he has indeed been badly briefed by his The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: No, office boy!1 the members of the Opposition are not con- Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: That just about cerned about this question, but they are becomes you. forced to take it up by their masters, the The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: daily Press, And that was just about what happened, H-on. Sir Ross McLarty; What rubbish, too. if this Parliament and this House and how untruthful! are forever to be dictated to by the daily The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT; Press and merely because the Leader of That is absolutely correct. In view of the the Opposition gets hot under the collar. fact that all the information concerning and that the Government has to turn round this case has been lying on the Table of and alter the business of the day, on a this House for several weeks-and it is day which is not private members' day, a fortnight since the 151e was removed from then there is a second thought coming. the Table-why did it not occur to the Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: What has the Leader of the Opposition, in connection private members' day got to do with my with the scandalous thing he alleges the Motion? Nothing, and that is Just a red Government has done, to move this motion herring you are drawing. three weeks ago? I repeat, it is only be- Mr. 1. W. Manning: And wrapped up in ,cause of the ballyhoo in the daily Press. a newspaper. We find in this evening's issue of the "Daily News", on the front page, in a Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Do not calm the prominent position, an article dealing with Minister! this particular matter. Then we turn to The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: The page three and we find the sentence, "It position is this: All the facts have been is clear that a serious division has occur- known to the Leader of the Opposition red in the Suez talks" In that item for three weeks and he did precisely noth- there could be all the portents of a grave ing about the situation. He could have international situation, but this trivial given notice on Tuesday and the whole thing, a matter of a paltry £450, has pride business of the House could have gone of place on the front page. on last night, even if we had to go on H-on. D, Brand: There is a question of until breakfast time. principle at stake. Ron. Sir Ross McLarty: We have acted The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: I too soon for you. do not know where the principle of the The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: whole matter lies if there is the prospect I am prepared to stand on any platform of an international conflict appearing. All in Australia to say this: I know sufficient I am endeavouring to do is to put this of the viewpoint of the newspapers to matter in its Proper perspective. True to which I have made reference to realise its form the Tory-Conservative element of that the majority of people take almost no this State is being pushed, pulled and notice of them. it is possible, of course, shoved wherever the newspapers care to to encourage correspondence, particularly lead it. I venture to suggest that "The from writers like "Mother of Ten", "Per- West Australian" and the "Daily News", plexed" and others. if I can give an which have found it impossible to point example to show the dishonesty in con- a&finger at this Government on questions nection with this matter- of broad politics, now find it necessary to stoop to trivial matters such as this. Mr. 1, W. Manning: What about? If those two newspapers had not con- The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: cocted this ridiculous campaign, then no The hon. member had better concern word would have been heard from the himself with potatoes. A few weeks ago Opposition benches about the matter. I on a Sunday I made a pronouncement repeat that all the information-and noth- In the Sunday Press and over the Aus- ing has come forward since-in the case tralian Broadcasting Commission. In 'known to the members of the Oppo- "The West Australian~' of the Monday :sitlon, was known to them three weeks following, hut which was printed on Sun- ago; yet now with great bulges on their day night, there was a letter from "Per- cheeks they come before us pretending plexed", Nedlands. Of course, there Is no that this is a matter of extreme urgency postal service on Sundays so it is obvious and that the Government must defer all to me, as it should be obvious to members [6 September, 1956.165 665 opposite, that that letter was written by Mr. Bovell: It would have been dealt somebody in the office of "The West Aus- with by members opposite in the same tralian", yet we see the so-called re- way. sponsible people elected to this Parlia- ment of Western Australian being The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: influ- If there is any delay, then it has been enced because a newspaper publishes a caused by the Opposition itself. Surely if whole series of letters from the "Claude this were a matter of such prime con- Swaines" and people of that ilk. sideration, then the Opposition would have Hon. D. Brand: Can the Minister say made up some sort of resolution long be- what the interest of the A.L.P. is in this fore this. it comes to the point that the matter? Government, as was pointed out by the Premier, has Important business which it The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: wishes to place before Parliament. Whilst The A.L.P. is in charge of its own affairs. the Leader of the Opposition has certain Mr. Wild: That organisation is your undoubted rights because of the position master. he occupies, he and his supporters should never overlook the fact that the Premier The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: and Her Majesty's Government similarly From the member for Dale we can always have certain rights which must be re- expect something silly. spected by members of Parliament. Surely The Premier: And he has never disap- this is not a game of tug of war in which pointed us. the Leader of the Opposition can say, "My business is more important than that of The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: the Government." In accordance with all Talking of masters in political matters, Precedents the Government has allotted we see two members of the Liberal Party 331 per cent. of the time of Parliament to sitting on other benches. That tells its private members' business, that is one day own story. out of three on which Parliament meets. Hon. D. Brand: What about Mr. Hon. Sir Ross Mci-arty: You did not O'Sullivan? even carry that out this week. The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: With regard to the A.L.P., it would be In order to meet the requirements of the found on reference to yesterday's news- private members that is done. It did not paper, if there is any substance in the occur this week because as the Leader of report, that having discussed the matter the Opposition- with the Minister for Police, the general The Premier: The Leader of the Op- secretary of the A.L.P. was satisfied in re- position was dilatory and slow. spect of the action taken by the Govern- ment, but felt that some other steps The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: - should be taken with regard to a. person knows, there are occasions when there is who was one of the principals in the whole urgent business which must take pre- of this disputation. cedence. No protest was made last night by any member of the Opposition, or any The whole point is that the Opposition other member, to the fact that time was is simulating urgency over this matter. taken by the Government on a private This is a reflection on themselves. If members' day to debate a question. There members opposite are honest and sincere was a protest about the procedure, but not In saying that the Government has mis- in respect of that point, which indicates used funds or has done something against there was an acknowledgment by the the best interests of the public, then It Opposition, indeed by all private members, recoils on their heads because they have that there was urgency in respect of that had up to three weeks, with all the facts matter. available to them, to shape up to the situa- If the Government plays fair with tion. First of all, the file was laid on private members of the Opposition by the Table of the House for three weeks. making available that period of time, which Notice could have been given on the fol- admittedly all previous Governments have lowing Tuesday and the debate could have done in the first two months of the session, taken place on private members' day on then I suggest that the Opposition owes the Wednesday: that was more than a something to the Government and should fortnight ago. Therefore, their action in- allow it to proceed with Its legislative pro- dicated there was no urgency or serious- gramme. That is not being done by the ness in the matter whatever. Opposition this afternoon. I repeat finally Mr. Boveli: There was no private mem- if there has been any delay In this matter, bers' day on that Wednesday because the it has been caused by the Leader of the Address-In-reply was In progress. Opposition himself in not bringing forward a motion earlier. I repeat that he moved The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: It at this late stage only on account of the if the question was so Important, they promptings of the daily Press, which has could have dealt with it without any dif- created an artificial situation over this ficulty. question. [241 666 666[ASSEMBLY.)

MR. ROSS HUTCHINSON (Cotteslee) The Minister for Transport: No; it runs [4.40]: It is quite obvious from what has you! been said from the Government side of the House that it is living in the past in Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: How ridicu- regard to a certain incident in 1951. lous can the Minister get? The Suez Canal Indeed, the Deputy Premier's whole speech incident has been featured on many occa- was devoted to considering that case. But sions in the Press, and other important I remember that only the other day he matters are featured. The proposed in- said the opposition was living in the past. crease in private bus fares has been He said, "Forget the past. Come to featured. It is a wonder that the Minister present-day affairs. What are you going did not talk about that. The newspaper to do now?" That is what we want to cannot have the Suez Canal incident know. What is the Government going to featured on the front page in the same do now? place every day. The Minister for Works: You know. The Minister for Transport: This mat- ter has been on the front Page six times. Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: What does it matter what happened then? We want Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: The "Daily some action now. We have given the News" of today states that the Govern- Government a reasonable opportunity to ment- take action. The Minister for Transport ignored the lead of the Acting Police indulged In one of his tirades of abuse Commissioner O'Brien. Acting in the which have become so frequent as to be interests of the Force, he rejected a sickening. He does that whenever he gets Police Union claim for assistance to to his feet. Hardy. The Minister for Transport: You will get It then ignored the principle that on! Governments should uphold the law. Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: Something As a self -constituted appeal body, it needs to be done. The Minister spoke of a slashed in half the High Court's de- simulation of urgency on this side of the mand on Hardy. House. But the Opposition believes that But even if people cannot under- this is an urgent matter. stand why this happened, they would The Minister for Transport: What makes certainly appreciate some frankness. it urgent this week and not urgent last Then, perhaps, our p~olice force could week? get on with its Job. Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: A reasonable Therefore, I suggest there is a real urgency opportunity to take action has been given about this matter. This is not a case so to the Government. We are not the de- simple as merely to involve the Government rmanding Opposition the Minister said we having paid £450 to Constable Hardy so were. we have given the Government an that he could pay Mr. Trobridge his opportunity to clean up this case. So has damages. The secretary of the A.LP. in the public. this State suggested that the Government The Minister for Transport: You have took action to help pay Trobridge. given it. have you? The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I must Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: Yes, and the ask the hon. member to confine himself Government has not availed itself of the to the motion. opportunity. Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: Thank you, The Minister for Transport: Thank Mr. Deputy Speaker. But I was trying to you! show how the Government is endeavour- Ing to say that that was the only import- Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: It wants more ant feature of this matter: that its action time. But there is a real urgency about in paying £450 was taken only in order this matter. We believe in that urgency; to help pay Mr. Trobridge. But we believe and despite the Minister's comments re- that a principle is involved; tha 't the Gov- garding the daily Press, what is said in the ernment is not upholding the law; that Press today has very much point regarding this action of the Government leaves the this business, and gives some idea of its way open for any form of brutality, any relative urgency and the importance of form of Nazi violence to be perpetrated in the principles involved. this State; and, after having been con- The Minister for Transport: You sug- victed by a court1 the perpetrator could gest that this is the most important Issue be whitewashed and paid any damages by in the world and should take priority and the Government. That is the precedent have first place on page 1? that this Government is setting, it has been talking about precedents from 1951, Mr. ROSS HUlTCHINSON: The Minister but its action today is creating a preced- has taken me away from what I was go- ent. ing to read. What he says is not strictly in accordance with what has happened The argu~ment was advanced by the in the Press although I do not run the Premier that we were occupying the time confounded Press of the House in needless debate. If be had 16 September, 1956.] 6676 done the right thing. he would have allowed Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: We are cen- the motion of the Leader of the Opposi- suring the Government for the misuse of tion to go forward, and the time taken Up public money. with this debate would have been saved. It is obvious the Premier must have The Premier: Alleged! realised that the Opposition could not lie Mr. ROSS HUTTCHINSON: But from down supinely and take this sort of treat- the attitude of the Premier, it would ap- ment from the Government; that it could pear that that is not a very important not have its leader's motion relegated to thing. such a low place on the notice paper with- out protest. I am sure he could not have The Premier: Alleged misuse. expected the Opposition to take that view Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: I suggest of the matter. He must have known that that there have been two other instances time would be wasted in a debate of this this year of the Government's misuse of nature. public money. The Minister for Health: Is it not being wasted now? The Premier: Alleged. Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: He spoke Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: Of the Gov- about the Opposition being reasonable and ernment's misuse of public money-and logical in its attitude; but he certainly was the Premier cannot get out of it. That is not reasonable and logical. He certainly why this is important. did not use his Imagination. Let us see Mr. Hearman: It has not any money what was said about the relative urgency left to misuse! of the motion. This sort of thing could mean that in future any Government could Mr. RLOSS HUTCHINSON: This is the relegate a sticky question to the bottom third occasion this year on which public of the notice paper and so avoid answer- money has been misused. it Is the third ing for its actions. time that the Government has misused its The Minister for Transport: The Gov- trust and used public money wrongly. erment has never interfered with the order The Minister for Transport: You dis- of business of private members. agree with it, that is all. Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: This is inter- Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: In one in- fering with the traditional business of the stance the Government used civil servants, House. and paid them overtime rates to gain a The minister for Transport: The notice political advantage. of motion has been placed on the paper in its ordinary turn. The Minister for Transport: You are a Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: This is inter- afraid to let people get on the roll. fering with the traditional procedure which Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: That does has been adopted over many years. The niot enter into the question, and the Min- Minister knows that. He quoted a prece- ister for Transport knows that very well. dent in 1951. The Deputy Premnier went back to an incident in regard to a Labour The Minister for Transport: You are a Premier in the prewar years. Puritan. The Minister for Works: It was 1934. Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: Three times this year the present Government has Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: There are two misused public funds. precedents. The Minister for Transport: Rats! The Minister for Works: Plenty more. Mr. ROSS HUTCHJINSON. I think that Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: The public on all1 other occasions such motions as that can look at those matters for itself. of the Leader of the opposition have been Mr. Bevel]: The Government deserves a discussed in what, to may thinking, is their censure motion on that point alone. proper order. As to the matter of rela- tive urgency, let us consider the compara- The Minister for Transport: You made tive merits of the 1951 motion and a noise about It and we were returned with that of the Leader of the Opposi- greater numbers. tion. The one In 1951 had to do Mr. ROSS HUJTCHINSON: The motion with the price of butter, I believe. which the Leader of the Opposition wants I do not know that that is so, to move Is of very great importance; the but I was Informed by the Premier that public thinks It important also. Yet the it is. On this occasion the matter con- attitude of this Government is, because It cerns a principle of law. It has to do with is a sticky question. "Do not let us worry the misuse of public money. about the public. What do they matter? The Minister for Transport: No, It has We will blame the Press because they are not. That is only the statement of the blowing this question into something Leader of the Opposition. His statement bigger than It deserves. The public has does not make it a misuse. no feeling about it anyway, so what do [ASSEMBLY.] we care. We have misused and abused Mr. OLDFIELD: I would say that at public funds twice before, so we can do the moment it is a burning question in the so again." It is time the public wake up minds of the public and that has been to this Government and I think they are engendered by the reports published in the doing that. daily Press. The Minister for Transport: They woke The Minister for Transport: Of course up to your crowd last April. it has. Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: They will Mr. OLDFIELD: Because of the capital wake up to this Government, all they that has been made of it, the matter has need Is a little time. They are a little now reached a stage where public opinion slow to catch UP with the Government has gone against Constable Hardy. because the Premier is so subtle and is so Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Do not you think winning in his ways. the matter is important? The Premier: That is a good excuse. Mr. OLDFIELD: Of course it is! That is why I want the debate on the censure Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: I think the motion to proceed this afternoon. If the Government is acting very wrongly in this hon. member had listened to me, he would matter by not allowing the motion to take have known that that is what I said. The its rightful place on the notice paper. Government, or Ministers, particularly the The Premier: You are quite entitled to Minister for Transport, has put up a very good argument as to why the motion should think that. be dealt with this afternoon, without wait- Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: I ask mem- ing until next Wednesday. bers to carry the present motion. Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Do not you think the censure motion is urgent? MI. OLDFIELD: (Mt. Lawley) [4.53]: Mr. OLDFIELD: Look! The hon. mem- It is a pity that the Premier did ber has just sat down. If there is any- not allow a debate this afternoon thing else he wants to say, I am quite on the censure motion which the prepared to be co-operative and sit down Leader of the Opposition wishes to move. while he says it. I am with him on this I say that because I have the Interests of question, if that is what he is worried the two principals in this case-namely, about as Opposition Whip. Mr. Trobridge and Constable Hardy-at heart. Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Just answer Mr. 1. W. Manning: They are nothing to my question? do with this. Mr. OL.DFIELD: What was it? Mr. OLDFIELD: They have a lot to do Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Do not you think with it. This motion has been moved in the censure motion is urgent? an endeavour to have the censure motion Mr. OLDFIELD: How many times do proceeded with this afternoon and not be I have to say it? Of course, it is urgent postponed until next Wednesday. I think in the interests of Constable Hardy and members on both sides will agree that this Mr. Trobridge. They are the only people matter has become one of the greatest to whom the matter is urgent, because what political footballs that this State has ever is the position of Constable Hardy at the known. moment? For weeks now he must have been too frightened to pick up the paper The Premier: Hear, hear! and read what people had to say about him. Mr. OLDF ELD: It has been used for I was in the same position when a journa- political manoeuvering and to gain a poli- list set out to destroy me, politically. I tical advantage and forgetting entirely the could not pick up a paper without reading damage which might be caused to either of some trash or some figment of the imagina- the parties named in the case. tion of some journalist. Then the Press published 21 columns about me and gave The Minister for Transport: Hear, hear' me a half inch for denial. Mr. OLDEZIELD: The Government, in The Minister for Police: The freedom pf arguing why the censure motion should the Press! be postponed has, in my opinion, produced a very good argument why it should be Mr. OLDFIELD:, As far as Constable Proceeded with immediately. If the debate Hardy is concerned, whether he was right were allowed to proceed today, it would or wrong ina the actions he took, it will have die a natural death and then both Con- to be argued when the debate on the cen- stable Hardy and Mr. Trobridge would be sure motion takes place. But at the able to return to a normal existence. moment, whether he was right or wrong, he is a taxpayer of this country and, as The Minister for Transport: Do not you a member of the Police Force, is a public think that the daily Press should be servant. As a citizen of this State he is ashamed of itself for the way it has been entitled to live a normal life. But day carrying on. after day, in fact twice daily, he is being 16 September, 1g56.l 6698 subjected to criticism; he is the main item Mr. OLDFIELD; Does anybody think of news these days and has even pushed that Mr. Trobridge is enjoying his noto- Nasser andlvir. Menzies off the front page. riety? Does anyone think that he wants if this censure motion had been debated to have this matter prolonged? this afternoon, it would have been over The Minister for Transport: He is prob- by now and the Government would have ably enjoying his £450. defeated it by virtue of its numbers. Thus Mr. OLDFIELD: I think it was £530. the matter would have died a natural He has had redress, but does anyone think death. The morning newspaper would have he wants people to be getting in and out featured it tomorrow, possibly as front page of his cab all day and every day, pulling news; there would have been a few more him up in the street and continually ask- letters to the editor, and perhaps a few ing him about it. It is a waste of his contributed articles between now and the time and I am sure he does not want to week-end, and that would have been the Prolong the matter. If this publicity con- finish so far as the daily Press is con- tinues much longer, Mr. Trobridge will cerned. Quite possibly the "Week-end achieve a certain notoriety and I am sure Mail" would have given a resume of this that he does not want that. I agree with afternoon's debate and that would have Government members who are blaming the been the finish so far as it was concerned. Press for featuring this subject so largely. But what will happen now? From now But, of course, that is the freedom of the until the week-end there will be a build- Press and I do not deny it that right. But ing up in publicity, particularly in regard I do criticise the ministerial bench for to the debate this afternoon and the Press not allowing the debate to proceed this will make a feature of it. The "Week-end afternoon so that the matter could, once Mail," because it does not have much to and for all, be dealt with and allowed to write about, will have a full page at least die a natural death in the interests of telling its readers of what took place this the two people concerned. afternoon and what will probably happen The Minister for Transport: It will die next Wednesday. There will be conjec- as soon as the papers let it. ture as to the outcome of the censure motion and all the alternatives will be MR. COURT (Nedlands) (5.01:- I feel discussed. So the publicity will build up I should join the protest of the Leader of until next Wednesday, and after that we the Opposition in moving this motion. I will find a report of the debate on the think the Premier has asked us to swallow censure motion. That will be featured in a lot this afternoon. He has asked us to the daily Press and again the "Week-end swallow that he would concede a political Mail" will have a story about that debate. advantage so far as his own party is con- The Minister for Transport: What an cerned by allowing this debate to go on thing this afternoon, and having a further de- indictment of the Press the whole bate at the appropriate time-in his is. opinion-when the matter comes up in Mr. OLDFIELD: So that is why I think the ordinary course on the notice paper. the Government has failed; it should have I have seen the Premier in action far too proceeded with the censure motion this long to swallow that he would concede afternoon in the interests of Mr. Trobridge that advantage to anyone willingly. and also Constable Hardy because, by its It raises a very serious doubt in my mind actions, the Government has shown that as to why this is being done. I agree with it is favourably disposed towards him. The the member for Mt. Lawley that if the Government has paid £450 on his behalf debate had taken place today, it would and I am not arguing whether that is right have flared up tomorrow; there would prob- or wrong. That is the subject of the ably have been a little flicker over the other debate. But in the constable's in- weekend, and that would have been the end terests alone the Government should have of it so far as the Press was concerned. allowed a full debate this afternoon. Thus Now it has become a matter of public in- terest and it will have to be continued until the matter would have died a natural the main debate takes place. The point death and he could have returned home,' and his wife could have started to live made by the Leader of the Opposition in terri- connection with procedure and precedent a normal life again instead of being in this matter is not apparently appreci- fied about reading the newspapers in the ated by all concerned. morning. Hon. A. F. Watts: Hear, hear! These men have wives and children; the children go to school and while there Mr. COURT: The authority from which centre of attraction so far he quoted was Sir Erskine May-not to be would be the confused with the name of one of the mem- as the other children are concerned. Those bers of this Chamber, I believe. The quota- other children will be repeating what their tion was as follows:- parents have said at the tea table. By establishing convention the Gov- The Premier: So long as a few more ernment never fails to accede to a copies can be sold, that is more important demand from the Leader of the Opposi- to the Press. tion to allot a day f or the discussion (ASSEMBLY.]

of a motion expressing lack of confi- which emphasises the fact that it is re- dence in the Government- "vote of garded in British Parliaments that the censure" as it is called. Leader of the Opposition is a responsible person. The Premier, in the course of his lie then went on to quote further- speech, did give the impression that we of. . to have regard to the exigencies could have the Leader of the Opposition th'ileir own business, but a reason- throwing up Aunt Sallys, as it were, one ably early day is invariably found." after the other, and completely distorting There is a further quotation from May the affairs of the Government. But that which is important and it reads as fol- is not likely to happen. lows- For one thing it has been acknowledged This convention is due to the recog- that Leaders of the Opposition are nor- nised and responsible position of the mally responsible people, and I am sure Leaders of the Opposition as a poten- that even the most ardent critic would not tial alternative Government-a posi- deny that we have a reasonable and re- tion which guarantees the seriousness sponsible. Leader of the Opposition in this of such an interruption of the normal State. We could not imagine him coming course of business. For their part, the to light with a frivolous issue merely for Government has everything to gain the sake of upsetting the Government's by meeting such a direct challenge to routine. If he did, the Government would authority at the earliest possible then have every right, and be fully justi- their fied, in saying to the people, "We cannot moment. stand this nonsense, and we are not going The Minister for Health: What meaning to put up with It. We will place his motion would you give to a "reasonably early day"? down the page and get on with the business Mr. COURT: I would go so far as to say of the country." that had there been a sitting of the H-ouse How many motions has the Leader of on, say, Friday of this week, still within the Opposition moved during the whole of the same week as the notice given by the his three years, plus the expired part of Leader of the Opposition, and if the Gov- this session, as Leader of the opposition? ernment felt that it had legislation of a To the best of my knowledge this is the national character which had to be dealt first motion of censure that he has moved with, any time this week would be reason- in three normal sessions plus an emergency able. Once we allow a lapse of Friday, session, plus the expired part of this ses- Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, with sion. I feel the Premier did not do justice no certainty that the matter will be dis- to the Leader of the Opposition when he cussed the following Wednesday, it is was replying to the motion moved by that stretching it too far. I would not consider hon. gentleman. He was inclined to dis- that to be reasonably early. miss this issue as being one of comparative The Minister for Health: Next Wednes- unimportance. day is reasonably early, in my opinion. But I do respectfully submit to the House that there are two vital issues. on the Mr. COURT: But there is no guarantee one hand, there is the acknowledged pres- that the matter will be discussed next tige of the leader of the opposition In a Wednesday. British Parliament. That is a vital prin- The Premier:* I would guarantee to under- ciple. On the other hand, there is the take to allow that to be done. equally important issue involving not only Mr. COURT: That would require the public funds but public morals. The people concurrence of the House. If the private of this State are very concerned, and it members objected to the debate being held does not matter how much the Minister for on that day, I do not think the Government Transport wants to castigate this news- could get the motion through, paper of ours. The Premier: We would give you an as- Mr. May: You are quite right there. surance that everybody on this side of the Mr. COURT: I refer to the newspaper House would agree to it being debated. as being as much the member for Collie's as mine. Mr. COURT: I do not think it would be wise or fair to bind private members on Mr. May: It Is perfectly true. that side of the House on a matter such as Mr. COURT: I am glad the hon. member this. Next Wednesday Is a long way off. agrees with the last part. The fact remains Had the matter been cleaned up this week, that this is a vital public issue, and we have today or tomorrow, I do not think we would people stopping us in the street and want- have had the same rounds for opposition. ing to know what is going to be done about The Minister for Health: I think the it. We cannot deny that it is not some- Opposition should be censured because we thing that has been blown up by the Press. have wasted more There is a certain acknowledged relation- than £450 on this debate. ship between law as represented by the Mr. COURT: one cannot measure an police In this country, and in all British Important public issue in so many pounds: countries, and the civilians in the com- and this is a vital public issue. I would munity. Once we transgress beyond a like to revert to this quotation from May certain line we must expect the people to [6 September, 1956.) 6717 revolt; and they are Incensed at this issue. of the Government to refuse to allow this They are looking for a lead from the motion to be debated. I think there is a Government of the day. very dangerous precedent involved. In the If the Government came out and made British Commonwealth of Nations where a full disclosure of' all the facts, and a full we have had Parliaments which, in years explanation of why this or that was done, gone by, have been part and parcel of the and a further explanation of what it in- Mother Country, and in more recent years, tends to do, I feel the matter would be with the introduction of self-autonomy, thM cleared up, provided the explanation were precedent laid down by the House of Com- reasonable. I am sure it would all soon mons has still been followed acknowledg- die down. But the people do not know ing the Inherent right of the Opposition what to believe. They get a report that to criticise how and when it thinks fit. the Commissioner for Police said one thing, the Minister for Police another, and Surely nobody can deny-even though that Cabinet resolved something else. On we have had a lot of heated words this top of that, we get the Federal president afternoon about what members have and and State general secretary of the Aus- have not said-that this has possibly tralian Labour created more Public interest than any case Party buying into the issue we have had in Western Australia for and leading a deputation by way of pro- years. Whether one goes into a barber's test to the Minister for Police. shop, or into the pub for a pint of beer. The Premier: Protest about what ? or into a shop to buy something, the mat- Mr. COURT: The handling of this case. ter Is always raised. The Premier: In what respect? Hon. A. F. Watts: Even at a meeting of the potato growers. Mr. COURT: For a start, he said that In his judgment the man was not a fit and Mr. WILD: That is so. It is on every- body's lips today, and they are all asking, proper person to be In the Police Force. "What is happening about the Hardy- The Premier: That Is the point. Trobridge case". I do not know either Hardy or Trobridge and I am not even Mr. COURT: It would appear that he is slightly interested in them, but there is a dictating to the Government as to who is terrific amount of vital, public Interest in and Is not a, fit and proper person to be this matter and there is also a principle at in the Police Force. stake, namely: Is the Government of the The Premier: That is not true; he ex- day, irrespective of its political colour, pressed an opinion. going to override the judiciary of Aus- tralia, and the highest court we have In Mr. COURT: It will be interesting to this country? It Is In that regard that see the outcome. the people of Western Australia are not The Premier: If you like, we will have a sure where we are heading. select committee to see whether or not Hardy is a fit and proper person to be In The point at stake this afternoon is the Police Force. whether the Opposition is to continue to have the right, which it has had ever since Mr. COURT: The issue is a vital public there have been Parliaments in Australia, one. The member for Mt. Lawley said that to be the voice of the people by way of this was being made a political football, criticism. This afternoon the Government, and I want to say that as far as we are by putting this motion at the bottom of concerned at no stage has this been used the notice paper, has stifled members in the or mentioned politically. I would suggest criticism that the Leader of the Opposi- that the first time polities entered into it tion and his followers wish to place was when a deputation led by the Federal before the Government. It is all very well president of the Australian Labour Party to talk about something that happened in went to the Minister for Police. If that Is 1951, but I have been looking through not intruding politics into It, I do not know Hansard and the Deputy Premier-who was what is. Accordingly I feel that in the my particular bete noire when sitting on general interests of the parties concerned, this side of the House-had no less than in the interests of the general public and five Motions debated, and on every occa- the stability of the community and their sion they were debated within 72 hours of understanding of the law, the Government his giving notice. He was only a private should have allowed this matter to be member at the time, but yet here we have debated today. I think the Government the Leader of the Opposition in a British should change its mind even now and let Parliament being denied the right to speak us clear up the whole issue once and for for the people of Western Australia. all, The Minister for Lands: He has not been denied the right to speak. MR, WIELD (Dale) [5.13]: I want to join with my leader, and the other mem- Mr. WILD: He has. His motion has bers on this side of the House, In protest- been placed at the bottom of the notice ing very vehemently against the decision paper to be discussed next Wednesday. 67?2 [ASSEMBLY.]

The Minister for Lands: He has not Mr. JOHNSON: There is not the slight- been denied the right. eat doubt that any of the 50 members in Mr. WILD: If I were the Minister I the House could have read it had they been 'would stick to potatoes; he does not know interested. too much about them, either. In adopyt- Hon. A. F. Watts: The file did not tell lng the attitude he has, the Premier is you the reason, even if you read every word Creating a most dangerous precedent. of it. Whether it be the Premier or the Leader Mr. JOHNSON: I agree. One has really of the Opposition, it has always been an to draw certain conclusions and I will be inherent right under British rule to criti- interested in the debate, as in most debates cise, whether it be done through the Press which come forward. One thing upon or privately. Here we have a case which which the reading of the file did illumin- has created more public interest than any ate me. was that it is not a matter of other I can remember for years and years very great importance. Also, the time lag in this State, and when my leader desires since the file was laid on the Table of the to take the opportunity to ventilate it and House shows that it is not a matter of obtain an explanation from the Govern- urgency. It is a. matter of great interest ment as to why £450 was given to this and has played a prominent part in the police constable, we are gagged. my Press. However. I think a far more leader's motion has been placed on the prominent part has been played by Diana bottom of the notice paper anid cannot be Dors, and it is one in which there is at dealt with for a further five days. There- least as much public interest. fore, I join with him in his protest as it The Premier: Who is she? is a dangerous precedent and very bad for the British people of Western Australia, Mr. JOHNSON: She is well illustrated, well studied and for more prominent. MR, JOHNSON (Leederville) [5.16]: 1 Mr. Court: She is a beautiful woman. feel like the Irishman who says, "Is this a Mr. JOHNSON: I see even the member private fight and can anyone join in?" I for Nedlands has noticed the matter in the would like to poke my bib in. The Leader paper and studied it with some interest. of the Country Party made a very com- The motion is one on which the Ness has plete and telling speech on this matter. instructed and I was, and am, in considerable sym- his political party to try to gain pathy with a lot of his points, but I find a little measure of political publicity be- on discussing and reading "May" on the cause of the interest which has been taken matter referred to, there is a point of very in the matter by the industrial side of the great importance in the quotation, and I Labour Party, We have the situation that will read it. It reads as follows:- the Liberal Party acting under advice from the Press, is trying to muscle in on This convention is due to the recog- the job being done by the industrial side nised and responsible position of the of the Labour Party for the purpose of leaders of the Opposition as a poten- rescuing its vanishing prestige. We know tial alternative Government-a posi- its prestige and ability are small. tion which guarantees the seriousness of such an interruption of the normal Mr. I. W. Manning: You know some- course of business. thing fishy has been going on in the mis- use of the money. We have to ask ourselves whether the Government is justified in regarding as Mr. JOHNSON: The question of any serious this motion of the Leader of the mis-use of money is one which we are go- Opposition and whether if he is. in fact, a ing to debate when the motion comes for- person who is entitled to be regarded as a ward. After listening to my leader, I leader of a potential alternative Govern- consider that will be next Wednesday. The ment. We know that the file was laid on Opposition is going into this matter in the Table of the House on the 16th August, order to waste time, as it did yesterday. after it was asked for by the member for speaking on subjects it knows very little flunbury on the 15th August. As this is the about. It came perilously close to treat- 6th September, that represents a total of Ing the censure motion in the same way 21 days. The file is one which most of us as it did the matter before the House yes- have read-at least everybody who has terday and at this rate of progress, next taken an interest in the matter--and cer- Wednesday we will be dealing with Tuies- tain conclusions have been drawn. day's business. Mr. Court: The file was withdrawn and Mr. Hearman: That is no reason. was in great demand whilst on the Table. Mr. JOHNSON: If the member for Mr. JOHNSON: I read it at the Table Blaekwood had heard the point I made. and everybody else who had an Interest In he would know that the matter is neither the matter could have done the same. one of urgency nor importance. I will not There was no queue and there was plenty dispute that it is one of interest and so of time. are many other things, but that does not Mr. Court: The Minister has stated that make them really Important or really he cannot table it again for the time being. urgent. [6 September, 1956.)

Mr, Court: Do not you think the re- The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I regret that. lationship between the public and the in the hubbub going on on this side of: Government employees is one of import- the House I did not hear any offensive ance and urgency? remark by the leader of the Opposition Mr, JOHNSON: It is a very important and in this instance I am not aware of matter of relationship and will be dis- the term that was used. cussed at the appropriate time, but is not Mr. Court: Someone said you were a matter of urgency. The relationship be- shocked. tween employer and employee is not the Hon. A. F. Watts: I think that the mem- subject under discussion at this moment. ber for Leederville has mistaken the word. The point to which I wish to return is Mr. JOHNSON: Apparently I have, but whether the Leader of the Opposition can I certainly was shocked by what I thought be regarded as the leader of a potential the word was and I trust it is recorded alternative Government. The rumblings correctly as the Leader of the Opposition that have been taking place in the party said it. My major point is that this motion discussions on the other side of the House is not a matter of urgency as is shown have been such that I think we are en- by the time it took the newspapers to whip titled to doubt whether, if there were an the Opposition into bringing it forward. alternative Government, the Leader of the It is not a matter of importance: it is a Opposition- matter of interest. It is purely a manu- The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!1Wml factured topic and I think it is a great the hon. member please confine himself pity that we must waste so much time to the motion. tonight, as we have done, following the waste of time last night. I much regret Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: Do not indulge the importance attached to this storm in in personalities! a taxi cab. Mr. JOHNSON: I am sorry, Sir, that you thought I was getting away from the HON. SIR ROSS McLARTY (Murray- subject because I was developing a in reply) (5.303: I have very little to say thought which is in "May," but I will in reply except that I am very dissatisfied leave the point at your request. with the reply of the Premier who, I think, Hon. A. F. Watts: He is the Leader of has not made out a case at all that could the Opposition now and you have to listen justify the treatment he has meted out to. to him on that basis. me as Leader of the Opposition or to those who are associated with me. I also resent Mr. JOHNSON: I will not press the the insulting remarks from some of his point any further, but I do wish to men- Ministers. I see on reading a proof of my tion in passing, that members of the Op- speech that the Minister for Housing said position have shown a lily-white attitude that in the motion I moved he found and pretended utmost disregard for the nothing but tripe. I know that is charac- practice and precedence of the Chamber. teristic of the language of the Minister, I was particularly struck by the speech but nevertheless I have a right to resent by the member for Bunbury last night. it. It is of no use the Premier trying to I followed it up with some research today deny the fact that this is an insult to me and I discovered that, despite the lily- and that it belittles the position I hold. white attitude of the Opposition, that gentleman appears to have been speaking The Premier: That is not so. on a matter in which he has a pecuniary Hon. Sir ROSS McLARTY: We have interest. The records show that a certain had extracts read from "May" tonight George Frederick Roberts is a director of which clearly indicate that the position Thomas Haywood Pty. Ltd. held by a Leader of the Opposition, who- ever he may be, is a very responsible one Members: What has this got to do with and that the Government should take it? some notice of the views which he ex- The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!I Will presses, particularly in a motion such the hon. member confine himself to the as the one set out on the notice paper motion? today In my name. Hon. D. Brand: Or sit down for prefer- In dealing with the motion I submitted, ence. the Premier said he has taken some notice of the motion. He has taken this much Mr. Roberts: You are shot! notice, that he has shot it down nearly Mr. JOHNSON: I trust the Leader of to the bottom of the notice paper! I am the Opposition will withdraw that remark. told that in the ordinary circumstances it may come up next Wednesday, but that Mr. Roberts: He did not make one. is extremely doubtful, and if It does not Mr. JOHNSON: This is not the first come up then, it will, perhaps, come up on occasion on which I have asked the Leader the following Wednesday. Now the Pre- of the Opposition to withdraw an offen- mier tells me that he will arrange with sive remark, and I request him now to do private members to postpone their busi- so. ness so that my motion can be dealt with, 1674 £74ASSEMBLY. i

The Premier: The Premier did not say Ayes. Mr. Ackland Mr. McLarty that at all. Mr. Bovell Mr. Newder Mr. Brand Mr. Oldfleld 2ton. Sir ROSS MeLARTY: I may have Mr. Court Mr. Owen -misunderstood the Premier. He said that Mr. Crommelln Mr. Roberts members on his side would be prepared Mr. Grrsyden Mr. Thorn Mr. Slearmuen Mr. Watts -to agree to postpone their business so that Mr. 1. Manning; Mr. Wild *the motion could go up. Mr. W. Mannling Mr. Hutchinson (Teller.) * 'Hon. J. B. Sleeman: How could he say Noes. Mr' Andrew Mr. Lapham that? Mr. Brady Mr. Marshall Hon. Sir ROSS McLARTY: I do not Mr. ]Evans Mr. Nulsen Mr. Gaffy Mr. O'Brien know, but he said it. Mr. Graham Mr. Potter Mr. Hall Mr. Bowel[ Hon. J. B. Sleeman: He did not mean Mr. Hawke Mr. sleeman that. Mr. Real Mr. Tome Mr. Jamnieson Mr. Tonkin Hon. Sir ROSS MvcLARTY: What did Mr. Johnson Mr. May he mean? railer.) Pairs. Hon. J. B. Sleeman: He meant that you Ayes. Noes. Mr. Cornell Mr. Kelly could interview them. Mr. Perkins Mr. J. Hegney Hon. Sir ROSS MecLARTY: Does the hon. Mr. Mann Mr. W, Hegney member think that I should be put in the Question thus negatived. position of having to go to private members [The members and ask them to agree to postpone their of the Opposition, with business so that I can proceed with my the exception of Mr. Rosa Hutchinson, left motion? I am not going to be put in that the Chamber.] position. BILL-COMMONWEALTH AND STATE The Minister for Health: I do not think HOUSING AGREEMENT. there is any need far that. Message. Hon. Sir ROSS MeLARTY: I have never known a Leader of the Opposition to be Message from the Lleut-Cbovernor and treated in this fashion. Attempts have been Administrator received and read, recom- made by the Premier and his Ministers to mending appropriation for the purpose of say that when we were in office they re- the Bill. ceived similar treatment, but, of course, that Is not a factual statement. 'The Second Reading. motion, of a similar nature, which the Premier talks about, that was moved by THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING (Hon. the Premier, when we were in office, was H. E. Graham-East Perth) [5.39) in mov- 4dealt with next day. ing the seconld reading said: My first oh- Then, again, the Premier talked about servation in connection with the Bill is that a reasonable time being allowed, and all it is called the "Commonwealth-State the rest of it. I would say that if a motion Housing Agreement Act," and I think I like this is dealt with the day after notice should point out that last October a con- is given, then that is a reasonable time. ference was held In Canberra, and an- But how am I, or how are we treated by the other one was held in April of this year. fact that our motion is Postponed for a At both those conferences everyone of the week? And, as I say, until we raised the States refused to agree to any of question tonight, nothing definite was the proposals submitted by the Common- suggested that the motion would be dis- wealth. At a matter of fact, throughout cussed even then. the whole of these conferences there was I am disgusted with this treatment, and only one matter upon which there was I do not want to stay in this place if the agreement, and that was that there should Premier Is going to treat me in this fashion, be a new agreement following the expira- because I f eel that in my capacity as Leader tion of the first one. of the Opposition I have been belittled; The position since then has been that and not only has an attempt been made to the Commonwealth proceeded with its pro- belittle me in the eyes of Parliament, but posals, and one by one the various States in the eyes of the people, too. Well, I am have felt that as there was a definite pos- not going to stand for that treatment, and sibility of the States' suffering a loss of I do not want to stay here If I am to receive loan moneys for housing purposes-how- It. ever opposed and reluctant they were, they nevertheless realised that there was no Question put and a division taken with alternative-they had to become associated the following result:- with the Commonwealth approach to the matter. Noyes ...... 20 It will be interesting to point out to members that under the agreement which Majority against2 2 expired on the 30th June last, the number of houses built In the Commonwealth, [6 September, 1956.] 67$~ under the scheme, was approximately the Commonwealth, under the new agree- 96,000, and of that number, in round ment contained in this Bill as a schedule,. figures, 12,000 were erected in Western Aus- will not in any way be responstile for tralia. The amount of money spent in this losses that are sustained under the, State under the scheme was no less than scheme, and it will make no contribution £26,850,000. The total Commonwealth whatsoever in the matter of rebates. figure was approximately £200,000,000. It Hitherto, the Commonwealth has met can be seen, therefore, that had it not three-fifths of the rebates commitment. been for the Commonwealth and the States Fortunately for the people of Western Ausa- associating themselves for the provisions tralia, a Cabinet decision was made re- of homes for the people, the desperate cently that the State itself would apply a plight of many thousands of our citizens rebate system under exactly the same would have continued even until this time. formula as was provided under the pre- I repeat that in Western Australia no vious scheme and that the whole of the less than 12,000 homes were erected, the commitment would be met by the State great majority of them going to people Housing Commission and the Government who had family responsibilities, and accord- of Western Australia. Perhaps I should ingly, approximately 50,000 people in have mentioned that the original agree- Western Australia were housed under the ment, which lasted for a. period of 10 scheme. The new proposals are designed to years, actually expired last January. So. operate for a period of five years; and it in addition to providing a new scheme to is essential that, in the interests of the operate from the 1st July, 1956, this Bill People, there should be a continuation of also extends the old agreement until the the scheme. Unfortunately the proposals 30th June of this year. embodied in the Bill, which are laid down by the Commonwealth, are not nearly as First of all, I should point out that satisfactory as they might be, but at the under this five-year agreement it is pro- same time they are a considerable improve- posed that for the first two years 20 per ment on what was originally submitted by cent. of the allocation to the State shall the Commonwealth. It is only because of be made available to building societies and the consistent pressure and opposition of for the three remaining years 30 per cent. all the States, that a more favourable docu- -in each of those years-of the funds ment is before us. made available to this State shall be al- located to building societies. At the pre- Mr. Qldfield: Will this give us more sent moment there happen to be seven homes? of them in existence and the Common- The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: No, wealth has agreed that for this year the so far as this State is concerned, it will Rural & Industries Bank may be regarded give us a lesser number of homes, as will as a building society for the purposes of be appreciated as I proceed. One of the the scheme. One-fifth, or 20 per cent. of principal changes will be in connection the allocation this year-that is £3,000,000 with determining the rate of interest to Western Australa-or f600,000 of the which will be charged on the homes. It money which normally, under the old appears that, initially, the interest rate agreement, would be made available to the will be increased from 3 to 4 per cent. State Housing Commission, is being al- That is to say, a 33h per cent, increase located to the building societies in con- which, on the average house, is estimated formity with the instructions of the Com- to amount to about Os. a week. So no monwealth. doubt there will be complaints made to Mr. Oldfield: Will the rate of interest individual members that there are two charged by the building societies be con- houses of the same design In the same trolled? street, built at approximately the same time, but one of them will be offered to The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I will a tenant at a rental Os. higher than the come to that point presently. Initially, other. the Commonwealth in its proposals stated that a certain amount of our money, for I might mention now that that is be- which the State of Western Australia is cause of the alteration in the existing in- responsible, should be made available to terest rate laid down by the Common- these building societies to finance people to wealth. As the Period of five years pro- enable them to acquire their own homes. ceeds, it is possible that there will be further increases in the interest rate under The State Housing Ministers were most this scheme, depending upon the long-term insistent that this money should be used bond rate which is Paid in respect of to purchase new homes or to erect new Commonwealth loans. When the Com- homes because we could have had a situa- monwealth originally submitted its pro- tion whereby a certain proportion of the posals there were a number of objection- money granted to each State was being able features, some of which now, on ac- taken away from it and given to building count of the pressure from the States, have societies and that all of that money would been overcome. But notwithstanding that, be used to purchase homes that were 20 in addition to this greater imposition in or 30 years old or even more. We felt respect of the increase in the interest rate, that it was only Proper that all of this 676 [ASSEMBLY.]

mfonley should be used for the acquisition The INISTER FOR HOUSIN~G: I think or erection of entirely new homes. For- it would be more appropriate if I could, 'tunately we were able to prevail upon the within the Standing Orders, say what Tomi Commonwealth to accept that proposition. Playford. Premier of South Australia said about this. He certainly didi not spare There was another weakness that we de- himself in his condemnation of the Com- tected. There was a complete licence monwealth for pretending that it was -granted to the building societies. They granting a concession to the States by could lend what they liked to whom they making available money at less than the liked. I do not know what the position long-term bond rates when the Common- was in the other States, but in Western wealth was getting it through taxation and -Australia we were able to convince Senator therefore was costing that Government 'Spooner, the Commonwealth Minister for nothing. So the Commonwealth has been :National Development, to limit the amount making profits out of this scheme and it ,of finance that could be made available is now making a 33Jt per cent. greater profit Uw any individual to £2,750. In the same as the result of its stepping up the interest fly, under the initial proposals, as pre- rate to the States and to the building sented by the Commonwealth, the building societies. societies were free to charge whatever rate of interest they liked. As this money was Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Have you made being made available from public resources, any protest to the Commonwealth on that? we felt that that was entirely wrong. I The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I have am informed that in the City of Perth not Put my protest in writing, but I spent at present the building societies are lend- four days in conference Protesting about ing money to borrowers who desire to erect the matter, and I was not the only Min- homes for themselves at an Interest rate ister who protested. I was only one among of 7 per cent. Ministers from six other States. Mr. Oldfield: And for temporary ac- Mr. Ross Hutchinson: What was the commodation at 17 per cent. Commonwealth plea? The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: There The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I am was a long story in connection with it and talking about long-term repayment, it was something to the effect that if the namely, approximately 20 to 30 years. We housing authorities of the States had were able to persuade Senator Spooner money Made available to them free of in- that there should be a limitation and the terest or merely at a nominal interest rate maximum interest that can be charged by of, say, half of 1 Per cent., the Govern- building societies is now 51 per cent. We ments Of other States would want to also insisted that the building societies jump on to the bandwagon and ask for should not be permitted to sit down in money at a similar rate for their ordinary leisurely fashion and use this public money loan works. for the purpose of carrying on their opera- tions. We Insisted that they, the builin Then there are certain Private members societies, should continue to raise money behind the Commonwealth Government on their own account and use this public who are concerned with and who are inter- money as supplementary funds to expand ested in real estate. They do not like either their building activities. the old agreement or the new one because, from their point of view, it represents un- Finally, a few weeks ago, in conference fair competition for them and the busi- with Senator Spooner, it was possible to nesses they conduct. I was informed by get him to agree to that proposition. Be- a Commonwealth Minister that this whole lore proceeding further, I think I should business was taken out of the hands of make some reference to the overall finan- the Government and it was told that if it cial provisions. As Indicated earlier, the were Proposed that there was to be a con- Commonwealth has decided that the in- tinuation of the old agreement, the Com- terest rate on the money made available monwealth Ministry would not have the to the States should be stepped up from support of their rank and file nominal sup- 3 per cent. to 4 per cent. I want to point porters. I repeat that the substance of out that this money is obtained by the the opposition comes from certain mem- Commonwealth Government absolutely free bers who have an interest in real estate of charge. This is not money that is raised businesses. They were most concerned on the bond market for which the Com- about Protecting their own kith and kin monwealth is paying 4Q per cent. or 5 per rather than providing homes at the Mini- cent. and therefore making a gesture to the mum rate of interest. States and to people needing houses by granting a concessional interest rate of 4 Mr. Ross Hutchinson: You cannot prove per cent., because this is not loan money that. at all. This is some of the Commonwealth's The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: As a surplus revenue. matter of fact, I can prove it. The leader Mr. Ross Hutchinson: What has the of this particular group movement-if I Commonwealth said in regard to the pro- can use that term-is a Minister who has test made in this House? received a certain amount of notoriety in [6 September, 1956.1 recent days because of his apparent desire than it would cost the Commonwealth if to toss Australians into a possible conflict it managed the business itself. I repeat, over the Suez Canal. I will say no more a minimum of £1,000 less. than that. I think I have said sufficient Eventually the State Ministers were able to indicate to the member for Cottesloe to impress upon the Commonwealth the that I was not using idle words. The unfairness of its attitude. There is now money that is made available to the build- an arrangement under which only 5 per ing societies may be lent for any term up cent. of State finances can be used for to a maximum period of repayment of Providing homes for serving personnel and 31 years. The money that they make the Commonwealth will through its own available is to be loaned to the clients with resources supply another 5 per cent. In whom they do business who must provide other words, the Commonwealth would at least 10 per cent. of the cost of the match the amount expended by the State. homes by way of deposit. Mr. Ross Hutchinson Called attention to There is a further proposal made by the the State of the House. Commonwealth which is embodied in the Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have counted schedule attached to this Bill. Originally, the House and there is a quorum present. the Commonwealth proposed that not only should 20 per cent, of the State's money be The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Now handed to building societies for them to there is this important difference: Under make profits out of it if they so desired- the Provisions of this agreement the because there was no ceiling on the interest houses will be erected at places determined rates that they might charge-but, in ad- by the State Minister for Housing and not dition to that, 10 per cent, of our own by the Commonwealth; in other words, money, made available to us by the Com- these homes to be erected for serving per- monwealth and on which we pay interest sonnel will be in the ordinary State Hous- and, of course, the capital repayment, ing Commission settlements. I think that should be devoted to the erection of homes is proper, but it is with some reluctance for serving personnel. that I had to agree-as I had no alterna- tive and neither did the Government-to We know that all of the States are 5 Per cent, of our funds being used to pro- desperately short of money. We know that vide accommodation for the class of appli- the Commonwealth, so far as its defence cant who perhaps is under no hardship allocation is concerned, is unable to spend whatever, and to shoulder a responsibility its funds and yet we have the Common- which is definitely that of the Common- wealth submitting a proposition which wealth. stated that 10 per cent. of what was made At the conference we insisted that the available to the States should be used for provision of accommodation for men in the purpose of providing homes for serv- training and those in the permanent forces ing personnel specifically. I do not want was as indispensable to the preparation of that term to be confused with ex-service- our defences as were the clothes they wear, men. the other accommodation they use and the It went further than that. These homes equipment supplied to them. Of course. were to be erected in places nominated by point is given to that when I repeat that the Commonwealth itself; in other words, the Commonwealth has, under Its defence the State could have been commanded to allocation, moneys unexpended which could erect with its own money 100 homes at well be used in the provision of homes for Pearce aerodrome or at some depot in the service personnel to make their lives a far North. The Commonwealth might little more pleasant, and of essential change its mind and the State would have amenities because many of these people 100 homes on its hands with no applicants are subject to transfer. seeking that vacant accommodation. Those Mr. Jamieson: Who are You trying to are the ridiculous extremes to which the convince, the member for Cottesloc or -the Commonwealth went. two independent Liberal Party members? I did some querying of officers of the The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Some defence departments and they were not of my observations are such that they happy with this, but, of course, they could should be handed down to posterity. not quarrel with their own Ministers. They Accordingly. I am speaking to my col- explained to me that the only reason for leagues, to the member for South Perth tying up accommodation for the Common- and the member for Mt. Lawley. I very wealth with that of the State was on much regret there is not one member of account of the incompetence of the Com- the Country Party in the Chamber at the monwealth Government itself, because the moment, and, apart from the member for State could erect houses far cheaper than Cottesloe, not a single member of the the Commonwealth. As a matter of fact, Liberal Party, the official Opposition. Such I pointed out to Senator Spooner that the is their concern for the housing of the State Housing Commission was quite pre- people of this State. pared and willing to erect all the houses Like so many naughty children, they required by the Commonwealth with Com- skulk out of the Chamber instead of at- monwealth funds, and that I could guaran- tending to their official business. I suppose tee to erect them for at least £ 1,000 less that next week there will be a motion 678 1ASSEMBLY. I

Protesting about a stop work meeting some- The Premier: Is the term used "low" or where. Right here we see the same thing "small"? happening. The responsibility and duty of those members lie in this Chamber. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Low or Relative to the Country Party, following moderate means. At Present, under the the representations by their leader and Act, a worker is one whose income does most of his supporters, I undertook- not exceed, in round figures, £1,050 exclud- Mr. Ross Hutchinsoni: On a point of ing overtime with an additional £25 allow- order, I submit that the Minister is not able income in respect of every child under debating his Bill. the age of 16. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: -in Mr. Ross Hutchinson: I suggest the Min- view of the circumstances and notwith- ster might take some notice of the Prem- standing a smaller amount of money avail- ier's remark regarding low means or small able to the Housing Commission this year, means. that for the current financial year a greater number of houses will be built in The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I was the country districts than were built last merely reading an extract from the year. I do not know whether members of measure it-self. The words are those of the Country Party feel they have got all the Commonwealth and not mine. There they wanted and are no longer interested is another concession, too, so far as the in this matter. This does them little credit. States are concerned, and I am thankful Should there be any scandal, they are here, for this one. Instead of the long and in- like a pack of wolves, but where important volved procedure that was laid down by legislation is concerned not one of their the Commonwealth in respect of the pur- members is in the Chamber. chase of rental homes under the old agree- ment-that is, purchased under terms- Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Your words will on this occasion it is being left entirely to not be wasted. the discretion of the States to decide the The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I cer- basis on which they will dispose of their tainly think they will not be wasted. own homes built under this agreement. I Mr. May: When will the relief for the think I should add in that connection that the State Housing Commission can erect member for Cottesloe come along? the homes for rental purposes or sale pur- The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: If I poses at its own wish and fancy. might be permitted to proceed! We were able to obtain from the Commonwealth a There are a couple of provisions in the further concession in connection with these Bill which may be difficult to comprehend. homes built for service personnel. Inci- and they appear on pages 3 and 4. The dentally, these homes will belong to the terms of the Bill actually conform to a State, but attached to them is an indebt- wish expressed by representatives of the edness to the Commonwealth. However, building societies; and the first point is the Commonwealth will hold itself respon- to enable a building society, notwithstand- sible for seeing that tenants pay their rent ing the terms of its constitution, to become a participant in this scheme. The second and that the occupants treat the houses one is that, in order to secure the State in reasonably well. respect of advances made to the building It is appreciated that these houses will societies and to avoid the necessity for be rented to the Defence Departments and separate documents and endorsements on not to individuals. The Defence Depart- title deeds and the rest of it, concerning ments themselves will allocate the homes every individual transaction, there is a to those who, in their opinion, are deserv- floating charge upon the entire assets of ing of them; and therefore the State Hous- the building societies. ing Commission will not be knocking at the door every week or fortnight for the In other words the State has first call rent, or keeping a check on them. Neither on everything that is owned, directly or will our inspectors, in the ordinary course, indirectly, by the building societies as a run an eye over the buildings to see security against advances that it makes. whether people are looking after the homes I repeat that this provision is inserted at properly. the request of the building societies and with the approval of Senator Spooner on There is a new-and I should say tnt- behalf of the Commonwealth Government. portant-provision in the agreement. It lays down that dwellings shall be of a Mr. Ross Hutchinson: What is on page 4? reasonable size and standard primarily for The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: It is families of low an moderate means. In a continuation of what is on page 3. 1 order to meet that requirement, which is would not be allowed by the Deputy set out in legislation for the first time, Speaker to say. "Clauses 5 and 6." My the State Housing Commission has decided final observation is that, because of what -and the Government has approved-that I could call obstruction-at any rate, be- the definition of a family of low or mod- cause of the attitude of the States-we erate means shall be one who Is qualified were able to get from the Commonwealth as a worker under the State Housing a much better and fairer agreement than Act. that originally Proposed. [6 Septemberj 1956.] 6797

Mr. Ross Hutchinson: It was a good in the community to place most emphasis opposition front you put up to achieve that for the development and solution of the concession. problems upon the other groups. For in- The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: That stance, in the welter of discussion which is so. I am still disappointed that instead has taken place in Australia in recent years, of the Commonwealth making additional we have found some people emphasising moneys available to the building societies, that wages and salaries are the cause of certain money is being denied the States high prices, and that as a result of wages for the purpose of its being passed to the and salaries being high, costs of produc- building societies. My feeling is, and tion generally have been increased con- always has been, that the State Housing siderably arnd, in some particular instances, Commission can give a much better and to a level which has made activities in cheaper service to the potential builder those instances either only just payable or and home owner than can the building not payable at all. societies. It has the technical officers and Wage and salary earners generally claim a variety of plans. Its supervision is that the cost of living has been forced up closer and keener, and so on. There are by the taking of profits which, in their definite advantages in the State handling judgment, have been unreasonable. They this money. But the Commonwealth had have claimed that, as a result of excess the final say and so, initially. 80 per cent. profits being taken in many directions, will go to the States and 20 per cent. to prices consequently have risen and some the building societies; and after the first of the increased prices have registered in two years, 70 per cent. will go to the the cost of living statistics which are used Housing Commission and 30 per cent. to for the Purpose of measuring the quarterly the building societies, increase in what is generally known as the One final word: Because we have ac- "C" series index. As a result of the last- cepted the inevitable, and the societies are mentioned increases, wages and salaries, taking part of our funds, it is the desire where quarterly adjustments have con- of the Government and will be the inten- tinued to be applied, have been increased tion of the State Housing Commission to correspondingly and those increased wages make the scheme work as effectively as pos- and salaries have registered their effects sible. In other words, we will co-operate upon the costs of production. Those who in every possible degree with the societies are in a position, in regard to their costs with a view to seeing that the people of of Production, to recover increases in the Western Australia who are in need of Commodities or services which they make homes and require financial assistance, will available, have made the necessary in- get it, whether through the State Housing creases in the prices of those things. Commission, a building society or anybody else. I move- In some instances farmers at least have claimed that those engaged in other in- That the Bill be now read a second dustries, and in trade and commerce, as time. well as the workers of Australia generally, on motion by Mr. Ross Hutchinson, de- have forced up costs of production in the primary industries to a degree which has bate adjourned. made those industries struggle somewhat to Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p-1m. balance accounts and to allow of further development where increased production BILL-PROFITEERING AND UNFAIR has been assured of payable markets. In this situation there are some groups in TRADING PREVENTION. the community who have had no protection Second Reaing. whatever, those groups being the people who have to depend upon relatively small THE PREMIER (Hon. A. R. G. Hawke- fixed incomes. They have no means of Northam) [7.301 In moving the second augmenting their incomes and they have reading said: Every member is aware that had to bear the burden of increased prices, today Australia is facing serious economic no matter what the basic reason has been problems. In this situation there arises for those increased prices. Consequently considerable disputation as to the best the standard of living of people on small steps to be taken to deal with the more fixed incomes has, over the years, decreased serious of the problems. The word 'infla- very considerably. tion" has been applied to describe the By and large, wages and salaries are whole of the problems. The central feature under strict control. It is a long time since of the whole situation is that for some years I have heard anyone of any standing ad- there has been an upward movement In vocate that control over wages and salaries production costs, prices and the general should be abolished and that the law of level of wages and salaries; there have also the jungle, if anyone cares to describe it as been increases in other directions such as such, should be allowed to operate as be- in 'oerest rates and rents. tween employer and employee. The system I suppose it is only natural that in a for the control of wages in Australia is a situation of this kind there should be a well- established one and has operated for tendency on the part of well-defined groups a great many Years. It is true that some 680 680ASSEMBLY.] people argue that the court or industrial Out of that situation there seems to me tribunal concerned, when it fixes wages and to have developed a set type of propa- salaries, fixes only the minimum rates. ganda which tried to pivot the whole re- Although, of course, that is legally true sponsibility of the solution of our difficul- and true also in fact, nevertheless, the ties upon the wage and salary sections of minimum, in a great majority of instances the Australian community; and for quite does become the ruling rate. It is true, a long time now we have heard and read too, that in times when manpower Is short almost constantly proposals for more some employers who are in a position to severe wage control, with few if any other do so will offer above the minimum rates proposals seriously put forward to give for the purpose of attracting employees adequate protection to wage and salary from another employer to their establish- earners within the situation in which they ment. That has been taking place to a now find themselves; and the worst situa,- greater degree in some Eastern States of tion in which they would find themselves Australia than it has in our own State. if more severe controls were to be put upon We all remember the decision of the wages and salaries. Commonwealth Court of Arbitration made in September, 1953, when the court de- I want to say here that trade unionists cided that there should generally, and their wives where they are be no quarterly married, do not look upon higher nominal adjustments of wages and salaries in re- wages and salaries as being spect to cost of living increases which oc- necessarily of curred in the previous quarter. The basic any advantage. On that point they are as well informed as anyone else. They reason given by the court for the decision know that an increase in nominal rates was that Australia's economic stability had of wages and salaries is just as likely to deteriorated and that it was necessary for be of disadvantage to them as of advantage. the court to take this step to safeguard, as As a, result of their practical experience far as the court was able to do it, the stability of our economy. The Common- in battling with the cost of living, more wealth court has continued to refuse to particularly in recent years. grant quarterly adjustments of wages and They know it is not the number of pound salaries from that time right up to the notes In the Pay envelope that is of such present date. The State tribunals in every great importance but the purchasing power State followed the lead of the Common- of those pound notes in obtaining for them wealth court for considerable periods vary- the things they buy from time to time. ing, if I remember rightly, from about 21 However, they fall to appreciate a situa- months to the whole of the period; the tion in which they receive no adjustments State of South Australia being the one whatsoever in respect of upward move- where the industrial tribunal followed, and ments in the cost of living at a time when has followed right through, the lead of no adjustment is made at all of their the Commonwealth court. wages and salaries in respect of those hap- You would know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, penings. Whatever our views might be that trade unionists generally throughout respecting the solution as a whole that Australia accepted this situation in a ought to be applied to the situation, I reasonably peaceful way right from the should hope we are all clear and fair- beginning and are doing so today. It is minded enough to see their point of view true that there have been grumblings and in the manner in which I have just ex- protests and other signs of hostility. But pressed it. I am convinced that trade unionists in Australia generally accepted the situation Obviously, it would be most unjust to without resorting to industrial warfare be- leave wage and salary eraners in their pre- cause they felt, at least in the early stages, sent situation. It is true that in Western that they were making a contribution to Australia, our own industrial tribunal has, the maintenance of the nation's economic over recent quarters, granted cost of liv- stability. ing adjustments and therefore to that ex- tent has compensated wage and salary However, as time went by they found earners in this State for increases that that they were being punished severely by have occurred in previous quarters in re- reductions in their standard of living and spect of the cost of living. But, as I said in reductions in their real wages because a few moments ago, no worker, and I think of the fact that the cost of living was in- not even the wife of any worker, has any creasing almost regularly from quarter to faith in the greater number of banknotes quarter. The situation has now been in the pay envelope. Their great COn- reached in Australia in regard to our total cern is the worth of those banknotes in economy as a nation which is serious be- the shops and the places where they are yond any shadow of doubt. Even leaders spent. of industry, commerce and finance who a year ago, or perhaps even two years ago, We seem to have reached a situation were quite satisfied, and even optimistic. where some attempt ought to be made to about the situation and the future have, stabilise the cost of living in this State in recent months, displayed unmistakable as far as it is possible for us to do. I signs of anxiety. am absolutely convinced myself that the [6 September, 1956.168 681 organised workers of this State or of Aus- those concerned. It alms to prevent un- tralia generally for that matter, will not fair methods of trading, and also to Pre- peacefully submit to further controls of vent unfair methods of trade competition, wages and salaries unless they are given We know very well that there have been adequate protection in regard to the cost many new and more or less scientific de- of living. I know it is easy to develop velopments in industry, trade and com- a short range point of view in connection merce over the years. We know of many with these things. I am satisfied that trade practices which exist and all those when the Commonwealth Court of Arbitra- trade Practices at some stage or other have tion first refused to grant quarterly cost of been condemned by many people. I should living adjustments, and industrial tribu- think that every member in this House nals in other States followed that lead, has had instances brought under his notice quite a number of employers felt that by traders of the unfair practices to which Australia's economic stability was now they have been subjected, and the threats on a safe foundation, that the future was which have been made upon them, at rosy, and that they could proceed to make least indirectly, as to what would happen profits even to a greater extent than pre- to them if they did not submit to trade viously, because no matter how much the practices which had been developed by cost of living might move upwards, they the more powerful companies in Australia; would not have to pay any quarterly ad- or perhaps overseas where overseas com- justments to people they employed. panies have branches of their organisa- tions operating in this country. I had a That situation was one charged with large manufacturer in my office only this considerable danger and the situation, for week who indicated to rue, and showed me as long as it lasted, did a great deal of in black and white proof of the existence damage-a tremendous amount of damage, of endeavours that were being made to in my opinion-to our economy. However, force his company to adopt restrictive prac- as I1 said a few moments ago, I think in tices in the supply of goods which his com- more recent months those who were tak- pany has so far successfully resisted. How- ing too much by way of prices for the ever, the company is now finding itself be- goods and services which they were mak- ing penalised in many directions and the ing available, and selling, sobered up con- indications, according to this general man- siderably in their assessment of the more ager, could be that his company will have important factors in the total economic to come Iito line. setup. The Bill which we now have be- Other instances have been brought under fore us is one that is calculated to pre- my notice from time to time and we have vent to the greatest extent possible pro- had debates over the last year or two fiteering in Western Australia. It is felt which show that these practices do exist. that, at least in this serious period of our I think it can be said with reasonable existence, steps should be taken to ensure safety that the tendency in this direction that the community is given a reasonable is increasing all the timse. I want to make measure of protection against those who it clear at this stage that this Bill does might still be tempted, successfully temp- not provide for any general price fixing ted, to take more than a fair thing in the system. It does not aim to declare maxi- way of profits from the community. mum prices for jam of any particular type Mr. Court: Has the Government any in an prescribed area of this State, or particular industry or group in mind? throughout the whole of the State. The main principle in the Bill in rela- The PREMIER: Yes, we have particular tion to the attempt that would be made groups and particular industries in mind, to prevent profiteering is that the pro- but I do not think it would be a reason- fiteering would be investigated only in the able proposition to mention them publicly individual instance where it was known or at this stage because that would be giv- thought to exist. in other words, there ing them unfavourable advertisement would be no attempt to bring all industry which, on closer examination by experts, and all trade and all commerce under- might be found not to have been justified. control. There would not be a general in- Mr. Nalder: Does the Government in- vestigation of traders here and traders tend to control services as well as goods? there. There would not be any attempt to put upon the shoulders of business The PREMAIER: Yes. I think this ]Bill concerns which were giving the public is drafted in such a way as to give the a fair deal, any restriction whatsoever. commissioner, who will be appointed under They would be free to carry out their busi- its provisions, power to control services ness transactions without any let or hind- of those goods. The main objects set out rance at all as long as it was thought in the Bill are (a) to prevent unfair pro- they were trading on a basis which was fit-miaking, (b) to prevent unfair methods fair and reasonable to the community. I of trading and (c) to prevent unfair think in that respect the moving principle methods of trade competition. It will be in this Bill Possesses more advantages over seen, therefore, that the Bill makes pro- the basic principle which operated in the vision for much miore than an attempt old prices legislation and also in the. to prevent the taking of unfair profits by national security regulations in connection 682 882ASS EMBLY.]I

with prices, which the Commonwealth still make much more profit out of the Government operated during the war years Jam. In other words, the small trader, and for about three years alter the war. perhaps at Scarborough, could not be ex- pected to sell a tin of fig jam at the The Bill proposes'that a commissioner same price as a big store in the city, would be appointed and that the person especially the self-service type of store. to be appointed as a commissioner would It is because the Government be one having experience in commercial is anxious business and trading affairs. This com- to avoid as much unnecessary trouble and worry and work for trade, industry and missioner would of necessity be given very commerce strong powers of investigation and inquiry. generally and to avoid as much He could move on his own initiative to work as Possible for the commissioner and investigate a reported ease or a suspected the staff which would be under his Juris- case of profiteering. He could move on diction, that it has developed the basic reports made to him by the officers who principle in this Bill of dealing with the would be employed under his jurisdiction. individual instead of dealing with an in- He, or they, could move on reports which dustry, or trade, or commodity as a whole. might be made to them by members of Mr. Court: I could not envisage a yard- the public who considered they were be- stick. ing overcharged with regard to goods or services which they were purchasing. In The PREMIER; We did give considera- any instance under any of the headings tion to that problem, but I think the where the commissioner was satisfied there member for Nedlands would probably was justification for carrying out an in- agree that when one tries to develop a quiry or investigation, he could order one yardstick to be applied to a situation such to be made. as this proposes to cover, one gets into all sorts of difficulties and confusion. That under the provisions of the Bill It would was the main reason why the Government be binding upon the business person or agreed to put this principle of individual company concerned to allow the investi- approach into the Bill. gation to proceed. Finally, the commis- stoner, where he was satisfied as a result Mr. Court: The commissioner Is going to of his investigation that a case of Undue be someone outside the Government ser- profit-making existed or that there was vices? justification under the other headings of unfair methods of trading and un- The PREMIER: He will be outside the fair methods of trade competition, could Public Service if that is what the mem- charge the person concerned under which- ber means, ever of the three headings was appropriate Mr. Court: I notice by the qualifications and could call upon the person or com- envisaged that he would be in all prob- pany concerned to show cause why ability outside of the existing Public Ser- the trader should not be made, under vice. the terms of the proposed law, a "declared trader". In other wards, if The PREMIER: I think that would be the commissioner, after close and expert undoubtedly so. The inquiry at which the investigation, was satisfied that Profiteer- trader concerned would be given an op- ing or unfair trading or unfair trading portunity of proving that he should not competition had taken place, he could call be "declared," is explained clearly in the upon the person concerned to show cause appropriate part of the Bill, and the trader or reason why he should not be a "de- concerned would be given a reasonable clared trader" under the provisions of the period of time in which to prepare what- law. ever case he might have to prepare to present at the inquiry in connection with Mr. Wild: is the commissioner going to the notice calling upon him to show cause be the person to determine what is a fair why he should not be declared under the profit? Act. The PREMIER; Yes, but in the case of The commissioner Is given power in a prosecution it will still be for the court connection with these inquiries to admit to decide whether a trader considered by such members of the public as he thinks the commissioner to have breached the fair and reasonable in any particular in- Act, Is to be found guilty of the breach stance, and the commissioner himself is and should be Punished in accordance to make all the inquiries which he deems -with the penalties provided under the Act reasonable at an inquiry of this kind. In for a breach of it. other words, the commissioner cannot Mr. Court: Is there any yardstick laid delegate his Powers In regard to this type down in the Bill? of inquiry. He must carry out the inquiry himself and give the trader every oppor- The PREInER: No, there could not be a tunity to present his arguments and his yardstick laid down in the Bill which case and decide upon the merits of the would be practicable in all situations. For evidence which is made available whether instance, one firm could sell a tin of jam the persons should become and be made, a .at a lower price than another firm and "declared trader" under the Act. (6 Sept-ember, 1956.1

Mr. Court: What are the circumstances The PREMIER: I would not. I think it in which it is envisaged that the public would be unfair to admit people who have will be admitted to an inquiry. no associate interest in the matter. I do not think they should be present at an The PREMIER: I should think some inquiry which was being carried out for the members of the public could be tre- Purpose of deciding whether, in fact, the mendously interested in a hearing of this trader concerned had reached the stan- kind. For instance, there could be the dards which had been set prior to that aggrieved person who feels he has been time by the commissioner himself. The overcharged and feels he has been pena- only time that the public, by and large, lised by an unfair trading practice or should be given an opportunity to be competition. I should say in a situation present would be In a court of law in the of that kind the commissioner would al- event of the commissioner, following an low the person concerned to be present inquiry, deciding that a prosecution should and of course, to give evidence. However, take place against the person concerned. there might be other people concerned who desire to be present, such as perhaps the Mr. Court: At that stage it is quite president or secretary of the Chamber of normal Practice. Commerce or the representatives of various The PREMIER: Yes, it is indeed. Pro- organisations. vided the commissioner was satisfied that The commissioner is given power to the charge had been proved at the inquiry, refuse admission and that, of course, could the Bill gives him the right to caution the be desirable in some instances. We could Person concerned if the subject matter of easily think of a situation in which it the charge is, in the opinion of the com- would be unfair to the trader concerned missioner, trivial; or, alternatively, he may or manufacturer or wholesaler to have declare the person to be a "declared trader" members of the public, perhaps com- under the Act. petitors, listening in to an inquiry of this I might say that the word "trivial" does kind where he is submitting information not appeal to me at all, and I propose to which it would not be fair and reasonable alter it when we are in Committee. I for other people to hear. Therefore, pro- cannot imagine that an action should be vision is made in the Bill for the comimis- levelled against a trader simply because It sioner, in his own discretion to admit or was found he had done something of a refuse to admit, and I would think that trivial character. At the appropriate those portions of the Bill are necessary. stage I propose to delete that word from the Bill and substitute something more Mr. Court: Is an inquiry envisaged substantial. I think a trader is entitled to where the general public will be present? a caution even if he is found to overstep The PREMIER: No, not the general the bounds to some extent, Provided it has public. It is not likely that the commis- not been to any worth-while extent. sioner would hire Hi3s Majesty's Theatre Mr. Wild: How do you visualise that the for carrying out an Inquiry; he would more commissioner can say what is a fair profit than likely carry it out in his office, which and what is not? would probably only accommodate 12 or perhaps 20 people comfortably and in that The PREMIER: He would have to decide situation the general public, in the broad that from the results of his investigation. sense by which we understand that term, It was decided In previous years, and It is still being decided in South Australia and could not possibly be admitted. In Queensland, but that is under legisla- Mr. Court: I did not mean a large tion which we feel Is too broad in its volume but indiscriminate attendances. sweep; legislation which is more or less all inclusive, once a commodity is declared The PREMIER: Certainly not at this and a maximum price set for it. We feel stage where a trader has not been shown that may not be the most scientific to be guilty. It is only under investigation approach; we feel that is possibly a cum- that this Inquiry should be restricted as bersome approach because it brings In greatly as possible. everybody. Hon. D. Brand: 'The discretion remains We are not desirous of bringing in every with the commissioner under the Bill. trader, manufacturer or wholesaler. Pro- vided people engaged in industry, trade The PREMIER: it is not possible to place and commerce are doing a reasonable thing, the discretion in anyone else; certainly not that is acceptable and it would be accept- with the Minister or with the person whose able to the commissioner. But where the affairs were being Investigated. There is commissioner has reason to believe that only one person to whom that discretion someone is overcharging the community for could be given, and that is the commis- a commodity or a service, then the com- sioner himself. missioner would follow this line of pro- Mr. Court: I could not understand the cedure, would carry out these investiga- set of circumstances where the Premier tions and would finally decide on the re- would want to allow members of the public sults of the investigations whether in fact to be admitted at this stage. the trader concerned had been taking an [ASSEMBLY.]

undue profit for the commodity which he are a considerable expense to all concerned; was supplying or the service that he was and we are convinced, too, that it leads making available. to the development of a much greater When a Person does, in fact, become a governmental organisation than is really "declared trader," the commissioner may necessary. call upon him by way of written direction Mr. Court: It often punishes many for not to repeat or to continue, as the case the sins of a few. requires, the unfair trading in which he The PREMIER: It does that, too. This has been engaged; not to commit any fui, legislation has been drafted on the basis thier act of unfair trading; and not to sell that only those suspected of being guilty the goods or services at a price greater than are to be approached; are to be interro- that specified in the direction or in any gated; are to be examined. After mem- subsequent direction which the commis- bers have studied the Bill, they will find sioner may issue. In other words,' the that that is, indeed, the dominating prin- commissioner is given the discretion to ciple running through it. forgo the initiation of a prosecution in the first instance where a breach of the Act Hon. A. F. Watts: Why does it not make has, by an investigation, been shown to some attempt to define unfair trading? have taken Place. This provision has been The PREMIER: We will be quite willing put into the Bill because it has been to try to meet any suggestions which are thought It would be unfair in many in- made in that direction. When we set out stances to declare a person under the Act to define some terms we come against all when the person would not, on the first sorts of difficulties. To define this would occasion, have had any accurate Idea, or be rather like trying to define, in legisla- even perhaps any approximate idea, of the tion, the term "dangerous driving" and standards that the commissioner would other terms of that description. The terms apply in a particular set of circumstances. themselves are so elastic that we have to It is felt, therefore, that no person should forgo the attempt to define them In words. be Prosecuted or even declared, Simply be- and leave it to the discretion of the author- cause he had done something which might ity concerned as to what is a fair thing in have been done in all good faith, and, of particular circumstances. course, in complete ignorance of the Stan- Hon. A. F. Watts: The interpretation of dard which the commissioner might think the word 'unfair." as I see the Bill at the reasonable in a particular situation. So, moment, will rest entirely on the view of provision is made for a warning to be one man. issued. Once the warning is issued, the The PREMIER: Yes, it would finally, trader concerned is from then onwards about that. bound to observe, respect and carry out the but there is nothing unusual direction of the commissioner in regard Hon. A. F. Watts: I think an attempt to his future trade practices or in regard should be made to guide him as to the to the prices to be charged in respect of meaning of the word. the goods or services which he is manu- The PREMIER: If that can be done suc- facturing or making available. cessfully, the members of the Government For the Purposes of the investigation, it will be happy to help. The penalties pro- is provided that the Prices Control Act of vided in the Bill are substantial in regard 1948, or the regulations under that Act, to the maximum, but discretion is left or both, shall be available to the commis- with the courts as to whether the maxi- sioner to ensure that he will be in Posses- mum or some other penalty shall be im- sion at all times of adequate powers with posed in the event of a person being found which to carry out his investigations and guilty. The punishment for an offence with which to apply the method of discip- against the proposed law would be a maxi- line which the legislation proposes to mum of £500 or imprisonment for a term establish. not exceeding six months. Other penal- Mr. Court: Does not that subolause have ties are provided and they cover such mat- the effect of bringing the previous Prices ters as forfeiture of goods to the Crown. Control Act back into operation? Also, discretion is given to the court in regard to the imposition of an additional The PREMIER: No. If during the sub- fine not exceeding a sum equal to double sequent stages of the debate, the hon. the amount of the unfair profits which the member can show that that would be so, court had decided were taken in connection the Government would be prepared to meet the particular prosecution. him on the basis of an amendment which with will maintain in a supreme Position in This provision has been put In the Bill the legislation, the principle of the indi- to make it unprofitable for anyone to con- vidual approach and not the general ap- tinue profiteering. It would not be effec- proach. The Government is anxious to tive if the court fined some company £500. avoid a general application. We agreed, which would be the maximum for having after close investigation, with the con- indulged in profiteering, unfair trade prac- tention that has often been Put forward by tices, or unfair trade competition, if the representatives of trade, commerce and company concerned had already made industry, that the blanket Provisions are £100,000 out of its breach of the law. So -not only a nuisance and unnecessary, but it is thought that there ought to be some (6 September, 1956.] 635 provision in the Bill-and there is one- The PREMIER: I will go this far and which would give the court discretionary say that the member for Leederville and power to impose an additional penalty the member for Cotteslos together, as joint apart from the normal fine so that pro- commissioners, would go a long way, but fiteering imposed upon the community I would not be sure in which direction. would become unprofitalbe instead of pro- fitable. Hon. D. Brand: In opposite directions. We all know that in these days there Mr. Oldfleld: Would this Bill have the are some powerful concerns operating. same effect as the previous prices control We know that if they are charging too legislation, when each individual item was much for the commodity which they sell, priced? they could make a very great amount of The PREMIER: No, that is not intended undue profit in a short period because of at all. The basis upon which this Bill the huge quantities of the commodity that would move would be upon an individual they sell. So a fine of £500 to them every basis, directly and entirely on that basis. so often would be chicken feed, to use If the commissioner had reason to believe a term that would describe the situation. that Smith and Jones were overcharging Another provision in the Bill, which is or engaging in some unfair trading prac- of a disciplinary nature, Is to give the tices or some unfair trading competition, the commissioner would investigate the court, upon the conviction of a trader or case of Smith and Jones and not that of other person, the authority to order that anybody else. The commissioner, sub- that person shall display in his place of sequent to his investigation, would make business notices relating to the conviction a decision on the case of Smith and Jones decided upon by the court and shall mai n- and that decision would apply only to tain this notice of conviction in a promin- Smith and Jones and could not possibly ent place in his business establishment be made for a specified period. to apply to anybody else. Mr. Oldfleld: Will this Bill have any Mr. Oldfield: The Premier wants to be effect on the purchasing of goods as well careful! One member lost his seat by as the selling of them? introducing a Bill similar to this. The PREMIER: Yes, the Bill will give The PREMER: If the hon. member the commissioner power to deal with a has some personal fears in this regard we situation as between retailer and whole- shall be pleased to try to provide protec- saler, as between wholesaler and mnanu- tion for him at any rate in the Bill before facturer, or as between retailer and manu- it finally goes through the Committee facturer direct. I have explained gener- stage. ally the main provisions in the Bill. In Mr. Ross Hutchinson: He has already conclusion, I say that the Government has had protection. made an earnest attempt to develop legis- lation to Prevent profiteering in Western The PREMIER: On behalf of the Gov- Australia on the basis that our only pur- ernment I would like to appeal to all mem- pose is to prevent profiteering, unfair trad- bers to give this legislation careful con- ing practices and unfair trading competi- sideration. It Is a genuine attempt on the part of the Government to meet a situa- tion. tion which we think urgently requires at- Hon. D. Brand: The whole success of tention. Apart from what I said earlier the legislation will depend on the person- about the cost of living and the relation- ality and type of man that you appoint ship of wages and salaries to the cost of as commissioner, I should imagine. living, there is the fact that the primary The PREMIER: Undoubtedly. How- industries-some of them, at any rate- ever, that situation is not unusual.' In are not as prosperous as they were. I think many situations almost everything depends we all know that some people make very upon the calibre of the person who is the great profits out of the primary industries; head of the organisation. and they are people who are not directly engaged in the industries themselves. This Hon. D. Brand: But you are breaking Bill could be of some considerable help new ground here, are you not? in that direction. The PREMIER: Yes, we are undoubt- I should hope that no member in the edly breaking new ground with this Bill House desires that any person engaged in and we feel that it is a move in the right any industry or commerce should receive direction. We feel that this measure, in more than a fair return for his activities operation, would be much less cumbersome and in connection with the real capital and much less costly to everybody con- that is employed by him in the particular cerned than was the prices control legis- undertaking. If every member approaches lation which operated for some years prior the Bill on the basis that I have suggested, to the end of December, 1953. it seems to me that it should be possible Mr. Ross Hutchinson: How would the out of our combined and, I should hope, member for Leederville go as commis- our co-operative deliberations, to produce sioner? a measure that should find itself on the [ASSEMBLY.]

statute book and which, in operation. of identification and the circumstances would punish those who were guilty and, which surrounded the taking of fingerprints in doing so, provide reasonable safeguards under Western Australian law. and protection for the community gener- A couple of days ago, in answer to ques- ally. I move- tions I obtained considerable information That the Bill be now read a second on that subject from the Minister for Police. That satisfied me reasonably in regard to time. fingerprints taken in Western Australia. In On motion by Mr. Court, debate ad- the course of his remarks, the Minister journed. indicated that a record card could be brought from another Dominion and also from other parts of Australia to identify BILL-CRIMI[NAL CODE AMENDMENT. a person charged with an offence here. I In Committee. do not know whether the same system in operation in this State is also in operation Bill passed through Committee without elsewhere; in consequence, I do not know debate, reported without amendment and if they are as foolproof as they appear to the report adopted. be in Western Australia. There is no ques- tion about that. BILL-EVIDENCE ACT AMENDMENT. The best evidence one ought to have in a matter as important as this, is dealt with Second Reading. in the Bill. It is true the Bill provides Debate resumed from the 30th August. that identification by an affidavit and a card of fingerprints is only prima facie evidence, therefore if the accused person HiON. A. F. WATTS (Stirling) (8.431: says that he is not the person concerned This Bill is in two or three parts as the and produces some evidence in support of Minister indicated when he introduced it that contention, it would appear that the to the House and the first one deals with onus would pass over to the prosecution the provision which will affect the to establish to the satisfaction of the court, matrimonial causes and personal status if it could, code legislation and to which I have not that the accused person was a the slightest objection. I do not propose convicted person. to take up the time of the House by re- The Minister for Justice: Such a case iterating all that the Minister has said would be very rare. The accused usually or to say anything else about it. admits the offences, especially if there are fingerprints. I wish to confine myself to the provisions in the Bill which make it easy to prove Hon. A. F. WATTS: The one case that the identity of a person who is charged is rare might be the trouble. I am not with an offence and who is alleged to have quite able to satisfy myself on that sub- a record of previous offences, which is to ject. I have already said that it would be done instead of requiring the presence be better for the State to spend £1,000 of an officer who is capable of identifying unnecessarily than for one innocent per- the person concerned by the production of son to be blistered because he is being a record card showing his fingerprints and given a sentence in respect of offences an affidavit by the officer verifying those which he has not committed. fingerprints. The Minister indicated that The Minister for Justice: A number of at times considerable expense was incurred persons would not be prosecuted to the in bringing the police officer concerned fullest possible extent because the police from a very considerable distance in order may not know their past history and be- to personally verify the identity of a person cause it is cumbersome to get a detective charged with an offence, and where neces- or sary, prove his previous convictions. Of Police officer to identify them. course, previous convictions are liable to Hon. A. IF. WATTS: Admittedly that increase the penalty for the offence being could be so, but nevertheless I do not know tried. that it is desirable to simplify in the number of cases where It may be desir- In general terms I am not particularly able, and risk over-simplification in the enthusiastic about this type of identifica- case where we might be risking imposing tion. I do not for a moment think that a penalty on an innocent person. I am the saving of expense Is anything like sure that is the general principle which sufficient justification for risking-if that is followed. it has been reiterated that were the position-some miscarriage of it Is better for a number of guilty per- justice, no matter how infrequent that may sons to escape than for one innocent man be. In my view, it would be far better for to be convicted. That is a time-honoured the State to spend £1,000 unnecessarily concept and a very sound one. than for one person innocent of past of- fences to be blistered because he is alleged In dealing with this Bill it is just as to have been. convicted of those offences. well to let the House know some of the Of course, the question arises as to whether methods that are adopted by the finger- one can guarantee this fingerprint system print branch and the views of the experts (6 September, 1958.187 687 on the possibility of fingerprints not be- and discharge; also at any other time ing, in all cases, a fully satisfactory when ordered by the Comptroller method of identification. So I read the General of Prisons." answers to some of the questions which The fingerprints record is ultimately dealt with this aspect. They are.- destroyed as provided for under the Experts are completely satisfied that Prisons Act (see Police Regulation 105, no two sets of finger prints are suf- first paragraph) which continues from ficiently identical as to risk mistaken the proceding quote, thus - "any identity. photographs or fingerprints taken of any person under remand or committed Since sets of fingerprints are men- for Trial, who shall not be ultimately tioned, then further amplification of convicted shall, with the plates be de- the answer is that it is Impossible for stroyed. and not recorded." such a thing to happen, when the examination is carried out by an ex- The fingerprint records are not de- pert, and that examination checked by stroyed immediately but are kept avail- is normal Finger- able for a reasonable period because another expert as It has been found that many people print Bureau practice. come to the department for varying If it is intended that the possibility periods after their particular case has of error between the Impressions of a been dealt with and demand to have single finger from two different people their fingerprints produced and de- be consideredl, then the answer is that stroyed in their sight. In some cases no error can possibly occur If exist- they desire to take them away with ing Bureau procedure is adhered to, them-this latter course Is not per- and that is that there must be 12 of mitted, but the fingerprint records are the same identifying features of the produced on demand and burnt In front same type in their correct sequence of the person concerned. We consider and relative position on each, before that if we are not able to meet this positive identity Is established, and demand by virtue of the fact that the once again identity is not declared un- fingerprints have been destroyed by another expert. forthwith, that doubt may arise in the less checked particular person's mind as to our Fingerprint identification Is the only motives when we cannot Produce the infallible form of identification of the fingerprint sets demanded. human being, and has proven this claim by constant usage over half a All fingerprints of unconvicted per- century, and the constant daily exami- sons are withdrawn from the files dur- nation of fingerprints involving mil- ing routine checks which are made lions of sets throughout Fingerprint from time to time and destroyed by Bureaux of the world. us because we consider by that time that we will not be called upon by the If this form of protection against affected person to produce these re- mistaken identity is not used, then cords In order that he or she may we would have to rely upon person personally supervise their destruction. description details, and/or photo- graphs, and experience has proven that The possibility occurred to me, because these aids are not completely reliable I knew that fingerprints were taken before when used as the sole means of estab- conviction, that they might not be destroyed lishing identity. and therefore could subsequently be used, as contemplated by this measure, simply Fingerprints are taken before con- because they were on record, appears to viction. in order that positive establish- have been completely removed by the last ment of identity may be made with two Paragraphs of the answer I have just Previous convictions, if any exist, in read. I have no doubt in my mind, so far order that the correct record may be as this State is concerned, that finger- presented to the Judge, Magistrate or prints are destroyed where there Is no con- Justices, when demanded by them after viction within a reasonable time after their decision to convict. This identi- action had been taken. I can appreciate fication also protects the Individual the desirability of the Police Department concerned because his identity has holding them for some time to enable the been checked for each conviction by persons concerned to see them being de- virtue of fingerprints taken in relation stroyed, rather than to accept the word of to those occasions. the police officers that they have been so destroyed. Once again I hope that similar Further, the Prisons Act (see Police practices are adopted elsewhere. Regulation 105, first paragraph) pro- The Minister for Justice: They are in vides, "Every prisoner shall submit himself or herself to be photographed Tasmania and South Australia. and to have the prints of his or her fin- Hon. A. IF. WATTS: The information gers, measurements and other parti- that is before me in regard to the taking culars taken and recorded on reception of fingerprints has at least considerably I ASSEMBLY.3 modified one of the objections I have to this probably have a list of convictions-per- part of the Bill, because It does seem that haps from 1.0 to 20-but would be treated not only are reasonable precautions taken as first offenders if their identity could not as I have indicated by reading the report,1 be proved. The use of fingerprints would but also that it is generally recognised be a proof of identity and provide a prima there is a measure of infallibility as long as facie case. experts are handling the matter in deter- mining the identity of a person through Fingerprints are also taken on affidavit, fingerprints. and there is no doubt about their authen- ticity. I have been informed that the In that this measure would enable a, per- fingerprints will be taken by experts, and son to be Identified from another country I cannot see that any real risk is involved. altogether where perhaps there is no If there were a risk, I feel the same as the guarantee that these expert methods have Leader of the Country Party, that no com- been used, the desirability for the Bill is parison could be made between monetary weakened very considerably, or that part costs and a life. However, I have made of the Bill which deals with this question. several inquiries and talked with Mr. It is just looking forta cheap way, in short, Good, the Solicitor General, the draughts- of administering or dealing with one aspect man, and others from the Police Force, and of justice in this State. I do not know I have been assured that this method would whether, if the Minister were sitting in my be infallible. I think it is used in South place, he would be very enthusiastic about Australia and Tasmania, and also in other this part of the Bill, If I had Introduced it. parts of the world. There is no doubt He would probably be saying in much about its convenience in a State like stronger language the things I have been Western Australia. saying very quietly in the last few minutes, and would end up by telling the Minister A court may be sitting in Broome and in charge of the Bill that he proposed to a witness may live in Albany or Esperance take out that Proposal altogether rather and would have to travel all that distance than to identify an accused person because there incur the slightest risk. must be proof of identity. On the other I suggest that he would not dream of hand, a possibility not mentioned by the allowing this measure to go through with- Leader of the Country Party is that even out a very strong protest from himself, be- then a person might he wrongly iden- cause he would be more nervous than!I am, tified. I knew two people at one time-a if I understand him aright, of the indivi- man called Brown and a Fred Willis--and dual case that might crop up where in- I could never tell them apart. In the court, justice, instead of justice, would be done. I would probably have identified them However, I am agreeable to the other prin- wrongly. I would have said a man was ciples in the measure, so I have to support Willis when he was Brown. There is the second reading. When the Bill reaches always this possibility of a mistake being the Committee stage we can discuss this made. I am inclined to think that we aspect further. should leave this provision in the Bill;, it would be a convenience and even safer than personal identification. THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE (Hon. E. Nulsen-Eyre-in reply) (9.2]: 1 follow- Again, a person might have committed a ed the argument of the Leader of the crime in Norfolk Island, New Zealand, or Country Party very closely. If I had another part of the British Commonwealth. That is a long way to take a Person for thought there was any risk at all, I would identification purposes. it would cost a lot not have agreed to this clause. of money, and even then the identification Ron. J. B. Sleeman: It might be worth might not be correct and the accused could another look. be dealt with more leniently than he de- served. Of course, I always consider that The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: I have it is better to under-punish a person than had a good talk with some of the detectives to over-punish him, and that severe and with legal men, and they have in- penalties are not really a deterrent. formed me that the method of finger- Printing Is infallible, and have said that It Despite what our learned friend, the Leader of the Country Farty, has had to is very handy, for instance, in the case of say-and being a legal man, he has had twins. The wrong person might be accused, experience-I think we should give this but if their fingerprints were available that method a trial and prove whether it is the would not occur. I know that there is best one or not. It has been used else- always a risk; but there would be a, risk where and, in accordance with the state- even if we did not have fingerprints. There ment that the Leader of the Country Party are people with records; and in the event read, there Is no question as to the in- of their being before the court, and a con- fallibility of fingerprints for identification stable or detective who had a knowledge purposes. of them being dead, or for some other reason not available, those people might Question put and passed. not receive their just deserts. They would Bill read a second time. [6 September, 1956.169 689

In Committee. be put to if the Act as it stands at pres- Mr. Heal in the Chair; the Minister ent were rigidly adhered to. The subsec- for Justice in charge of tions referred to require that where an the Bill. orchard-and for the purposes of this Act. Clauses 1 and 2-agreed to. of course, an orchard means a property Clause 3-Section 47 amended: having one or more fruit trees or vines- is sold or changes hands, it is necessary Hon. A. F. WATTS: There is a qualifi- to transfer the registration from the old cation in the reference to infallibility in owner to the new one. Considering that the document of which mention has been we have many backyard Orchards, where made. The document states- there is only one fruit tree, and the regis- Experts are completely satisfied that tration fee is a mere 2s., it would be go- no two sets of fingerprints are suffi- ing to a lot of trouble, time and book- ciently identical as to risk mistaken work, without any real advantage being identity. Since sets of fingerprints are gained, if the Act were to be followed mentioned, then further amplification in the strict sense. of the answer is that it is impossible In the transfer of registrations of motor for such a thing to happen when the vehicles, it is necessary for the transfer examination is carried out by an ex- to be registered so that the department pert and that examination checked by can keep trace of the vehicle. But one another expert as in normal finger- must remember that a motor vehicle is print bureau practice... something movable; it might be here to- Further dawn it is stated- day and perhaps in South Australia next week, whereas an * . . the answer is that no error can orchard, as such, is not possibly occur if existing bureau pro- likely to lose its identity or be shifted cedure is adhered to. from its present place, Although the owner might change, the orchard or trees In both those paragraphs the answer is remain where they are. The procedure that it is infallible so long as the exami- which is followed at present, although not nation is carried out by experts and checked in accordance with the Act, is that the by another expert and that ordinary finger- new owner, when the registration becomes print bureau practice is adhered to. As due, merely fills in the card in the usual I understand this Bill, It will not only way, and in the space provided, he also apply to Australia but also to fingerprints states who was the owner or in whose taken in other parts of the world. name the orchard was registered in the The Minister for Justice: I would not previous year. In that way the depart- mind an amendment confining it to New ment and the registrar have a full record Zealand and Australia. from year to year of any change of ownership. The idea of registering an Ron. A. F. WATTS: That is what I was orchard is so that the department will going to move. The Minister's interjection know the number of trees there are in will stop further argument. I move an the State and also to ensure that the amendment- orchardist has Paid the requisite fee. That That after the word "convicted" In is the only part of the Act which the Bill line 25. page 2. the words "in the Com- seeks to amend and as I feel that it is monwealth of Australia or the Domi- a necessary amendment I propose to sup- nion of New Zealand" be inserted. port it. The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: I have Question put and passed. no objection to the amendment. Bill read a second time. Amendment Put and passed; the clause, as amended, agreed to. In Committee. Clauses 4 and 5, Schedule, Title-agreed Bill passed through Committee without to. debate, reported without amendment and the report adopted. Bill reported with an amendment. BILL-JURY ACT AMENDMENT. BILL-PLANT DISEASES ACT Message. AMENDMENT. Message from the leut.-Governor and Second Reading. Administrator received and read recom- Debate resumed from the 30th August. mending appropriation for the purposes of the Bill. MR. OWEN (Darling Range) 19.153: The Minister, in Introducing the Bill, gave us Second Reading. the explanation as to why it is necessary. and I can see no objection to it. It will THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE (Hon. merely be a method of streamlining the E. Nulsen-Eyre) [9.22) in moving the Act and avoiding the extra trouble that second reading said: I hope that on this orchardists. including backyard orchard- occasion this Bill will have a smooth pas- Ists or those who own only one, tree, would sage and give the women of this State 690 690ASSEMBLY.) an opportunity of serving on juries. We At this point I would like to explain are making another attempt to have the that a woman may not cancel her liability legislation passed to give women the right to serve as a juror at a trial for which to serve on juries if they so desire. In she has been sworn as a juror. A female our opinion they should have as much juror shall be excused from attending as right to serve as the men of this State: a juror at a criminal trial if, before being and the women have asked for this right. sworn as a juror at the trial, she applies They have expressed disappointment at to be exempted because of the nature of the failure of the Bill to pass through Par- the evidence to be given at the trial, or lianment on previous occasions and they because of the issues to be tried, or be- hope that another try will be made. cause she is, for health reasons, unfit to A precedent already exists in Great attend. if this Bill becomes law, and I Britain and, nearer home, in other States hope it will, alterations will need to be of Australia, that is in Queensland and made to court buildings to accommodate New South Wales. Similar legislation also mixed juries. However, it may transpire exists in New Zealand. In England every that some districts. never have women on British subject between the ages of 21 juries. It has therefore been decided to and 60 years is qualified and liable to serve proclaim areas as the need arises. In if his or her name is included in the Jurors' order to allow for applications which may book. There Is no distinction between be made by women to be relieved of the male and female in this respect. In New duty to serve, an amendment extends the Zealand the age is between 25 and 60 for number of jurors who may be summoned women and if a woman notifies the sheriff from 40 to 50. in writing that she desires to serve she The Bill contains other amendments. is qualified and liable to serve in the same One concerns the session held for the fix- manner as a man, There is no property ing of the Jury list for a district. Jus- qualification. In Queensland, the age tices of the Peace for a district hear all grouping is the same as in England. A objections to the list. It is not always woman is required to be a householder possible for the Justices in remote parts and to be enrolled on the electoral roll. of the State to get together on a set day; Again, there is no property qualification. therefore an amendment has been drawn In New South Wales a woman must be to provide that at least two of the jus- enrolled as an elector; and there is no tices shall suffice at such a time. property qualification there either. It is proposed to provide in this State Again, the principal Act rigidly fixes a that, subject to certain qualifications, any date for the hearing of a special session. woman between 21 and 60 years of age is Circumstances can arise which necessi- qualified and liable to serve as a common tate the postponement of such a session. juror in all civil and criminal proceedings The amendment now submitted empowers within a, radius of 36 miles of her resi- the magistrate, on reasonable grounds, to dence. The qualifications to which I re- adjourn the holding of a special session fer are- for any period up to 14 days from the That she must be of good fame and date appointed. This Bill has been looked for for quite a long time and a number character. of women's organisations have come to my I-on. Sir Ross MoLarty: Who is to be office to discuss it with me. The measure the judge of that? has been drafted In accordance with their The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: It will desires and it is similar to the legislation be similar to what we have for a man. In England, although there women can be The qualifications will not be any dif- exempted by the judges on a number of ferent in regard to respectability. To pro- grounds and, of course, they have all ceed with the qualifications to which I women juries and all men juries. So there referred, the others are- is that similarity, although the phrasing She must be enrolled as an elector is different. It is also similar in the East- and entitled to vote for a member of ern States and New Zealand. Over there the Legislative Assembly; if they are entitled to be jurors they have She must reside in a proclaimed to apply in writing and that is all that area. we require. Opportunity is given to a woman to be Mr. Bovell: Will they have to apply to relieved of such duties by writing to the be on the list of jurors? sheriff. Through one circumstance or an- other it may eventuate that a woman who The MNISTER FOR JUSTICE: Yes, has cancelled her liability to serve as a provided they have the qualifications. Juror wishes subsequently to avail herself Mr. Bovell: Before they are called? I of this privilege. It is therefore provided mean they would not be called and then that, after an Interval of two years from have to raise objection. the cancellation, she can write to the sheriff at the Supreme Court saying that The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: No. she wishes to render herself liable for Mr. Boveil: Then It Is not similar to the Jury service. previous Bill. [6 September. 1956.] 691

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: It is for building purposes, and accordingly the similar but they must make application Lands Department all through the years in writing, provided, of course, they have has taken it to be and actually treated the qualifications. These Bills have been Lot 184 for all purposes as alienated land introduced into the House so often and whereas in latter years it has been found been so fully discussed that they are now definitely that such was Dot the case and well understood. I hope the House will that no Crown grant, in fact, existed in give the measure favourable consideration respect of it. and that it will become law when it goes As it is not to another place. I move- possible under existing law to issue the Crown grant in respect to That the Bill be now read a second that lot In exactly the same terms as the time. one that governed the issue in 1854, and On motion by Mr. Hovell, debate ad- as there is some considerable doubt as to the validity of the sale by the Municipality journed. of Albany in 1874 to Robert Muir, because It could be argued that no Crown grant BIELL-ALBANY LOT 184 (VALIDATION having been issued in respect to that land OF TITLE). that the Crown had not in fact alienated Second Reading. the land, this Bill has been introduced to validate the sale by the municipality to THE MINISTER FOR LANDS (Hon. E. Robert Muir as though it conveyed an K. Hoar-Warren) (9.321 in moving the estate in fee simple in land which had been second reading said: This Is a very short alienated from the Crown prior to that sale, Bill indeed and I do not expect members and a Crown grant had been issued to the to find it at all contentious. Its only pur- grantee subject to the same reservations pose is to validate a sale by the Albany relating to gold, silver and precious metals Municipal Council in 1874 of what is as would have been contained in a grant known as Albany Lot 184 to one Robert of the land if made in 1854. The object Muir for non-payment of rates under the of the Bill is clear and the people now In Municipalities Act of 1871 then in force. possession of the lard are entitled to re- The Bill has actually become necessary ceive a valid title to it. I move- because no record at all exists today of a That the Bill be now read a second Crown grant ever being issued In respect time. to this land, although there are records in the lands department that show that On motion by Mr. Hall, debate ad- on the 15th November, 1854, the lot had journed. been purchased from the Crown by one A. B. Rain. BILL-NURSES REGISTRATION ACT Since the sale of the land in 1874, 20 AMENDMENT. years later, to Robert Muir, there have Second Reading. been several dealings in that land and exchanges of it from one person to an- Debate resumed from the 4th September. other over the years and it is natural, due to the situations which can occur, that the MR. O'BRIEN (Murchison) (9.39]: I am successors from Robert Muir down to to- very pleased that this Bill has been intro- day would experience difficulty in under- duced because it will prove of great bene- taking any work without having a clear fit to country hospitals. At present it is title. So the only object of this legislation necessary to call on qualified sisters who Is to make it perfectly clear that the pre- have married and who are now living in sent owner of the land which was pur- isolated areas to assist us overcome the chased for the last time in 1951 should difficulties that exist in the country hos- have a clear title to it. pitals. I know several young ladles who. if this Hill became law, would be pre- Mr. Hovell: Who Is the present owner? pared to enter hospitals because the meas- The MINISTER FOR LANDS: It is not ure would enable them to become registered often that I can answer questions like and qualify at the age of 17 years. that, but in this case I can. The present owner is Frederick Roy Sherwood The Minister has already told us of the who difficulties that arise in the supply of staff purchased portion of Albany Lot 184 on in several hospitals in this State. This the 22nd November, 1951. Bill will be of great benefit to the young Mr. Hovel: From whom? ladies I have mentioned and it will enable The MINISTER MOR LARDS: I do not them to qualify should it become law. I know. The record from his solicitors does know the Bill is only a small one but I have not describe the seller at that time. The not had much time to study it. From records of the Lands Department also what I can gather, however, it will be of show that the Crown grants were issued great benefit to country hospitals. I sup- in respect of Lots 183 and 185 on each side port the second reading. of this particular lot which. Incidentally. On motion by the Premier, debate ad- has now been subdivided into four lots journed. [ASSEMBLY.]

BILL--ELECTORAL ACT AMENDMENT daresay there would not be a dozen quali- (No. 1). fied people who are not on the roll. There are 4,228 electors in the Murchison section Second Reading. of the province, but out of that number Debate resumed from the 4th September. only 1.848 electors are on the province roll. That represents 43.7 per cent. of Assembly electors. On the Assembly roll for Kal- MR. EVANS (Kalgoorlie) (9.433: 1 rise goorlie for State general elections there to support the Bill the object of which are 4,750 electors, and in the province of is to amend the Electoral Act. The sug- which Kalgoorlie forms part, there are gested amendments seem to me to be such 2,508 electors on the province roll. That as will cause more than a mere fluttering represents a mere 52.7 per cent. of As- in the Tory and Conservative dovecotes. sembly electors. The average of those two Mr. Oldfleld: What did you say? percentages for the Murchison and Kal- goorlie sections of the province amounts Mr. EVANS: Would the hon. member to 48.4 per cent. Members can see that like me to repeat that? more than half of the people living in the Nqorth-East Province are barred from hav- Mr. Oldfield: Yes. ing a voice in the activities of the Legisla- tive Council. Despite this fact, laws are Mr. EVANS: The hon. member can enforced which have an effect on them. is read it in Hansard. that democracy? Mr. Oldfield: I bet you could not re- I cannot see why the members of the Op- peat it. position should oppose this measure, but I know, from their past activities and tradi- Mr. EVANS: The amendments con- tions, that they will. What have they to tained in the Bill are aimed at bringing to fear from adult franchise for the Legis- bear justice on the rights and responsibili- lative Council? Do they have to hide in ties of those people who are electors of subterfuge? Do they have to shelter be- the State Parliament of Western Australia. hind political jerryinandering or political A true democratic Government is one manoeuvring, which is tantamount to which is government of the people for rigging the ballot box, because the sys- the people by the people. But, strictly tern which now operates selects the people speaking as far as the enactment and en- who can and cannot vote. We may say a forcement of laws are concerned, we should rose by any name smells as sweet, but the really read this cliche as Parliament of system is no rose, and it still smells. the people, Parliament for the people and Parliament by the people. This Bill is an honest attempt to strive for electoral justice for the people. The In Western Australia, under our bi- Labour Party, of which I am proud to be cameral system of voting for the two a member, does not concern Itself with Houses of Parliament, the occasion arises. one section of the people. It strives to as it could arise during the life of this bring social justice for the "have nots" Government. when the Government has as well as for the "haves." After all, every no power in the Assembly. Sometimes adult person who Is enrolled for a, Legis- it is doubtful whether It has any power lative Assembly electoral district, pays because of the traditions existing In an- State or Commonwealth taxation, and he other place, which relate back to the early has every right, like the early settler in colonial days when the only interests con- the American colonies, to advance the cerned and considered were those of the claim: No taxation without representation. capitalistic landowners, and these condi- This mian-an elector for the Legislative tions-let me remind members-still exist. Assembly and a taxpayer-can be deprived Surely if we agree that under a demo- the right to vote for the Legislative Coun- cratic system of government in Western cil by selfish, conniving capitalists, and Australia-that is, under a. bicameral sys- any person who opposes the Bill and denies tem of government--the term "Parlia- the right of adult franchise must stand ment" should be regarded in a broader condemned as a tyrant. sense than merely "government"! Surely this Parliament, which acts for the people, It seems that a chain mail of class dis- should consider the welfare of the majority tinction is proudly worn by members of of the people! the Liberal Party and the Liberal Party Press who oppose the welfare of the work- In one province in which I am concerned ing people. This class distinction prac- -the North-East Province of which my tised by these people-this chain mail of electorate forms part-a mere 48.4 per cent. class distinction-is cracking in many of the Assembly electors for the two As- places. As a result of the last State elec- sembly districts-that is Kalgoorlie and the tion, it is badly dented, and certain mem- Murchison-is able to vote for the Legis- bers of the Opposition are now at the lative Council. I can assure members that panel-beaters having it repaired. This my colleagues, the members of the North- chain mail is, in places, cracking badly. East Province have enrolled almost every Even supporters of the Liberal Party are person who is eligible to be on the roll. I finding they have a conscience. I refer to [6 September, 1958.] 6939 a leading article which appeared in "The I consider that the franchise which West Australian" of the 9th March. 1954, applies to another place today, typifies and I will quote from it as follows:- what exists in some of the British pos- It should worry every person who be- sessions in Central Africa. It is a terrible lieves in the principles of parliament- indictment that some people are not aware ary democracy 'whether the second that they have no vote in quite a number chamber has the moral right to reject of cases. I believe-and members of the legislation which the Government Opposition must realise it as time goes on deems essential, knowing that there -that we will find representatives of the can be no direct and full appeal to the Liberal Party in opposition in another place. people against its action. I think that position will come about by 1962. It has certainly been quite a battle. That is from "The West Australian"- a publication which is truly not "Labour"- The Opposition is full of platitudes, and which now seems to be ashamed of being believes a lot of rot about democracy. So called "Liberal". far as I am concerned, democracy cannot exist here, and I wish people would Furthermore, there Is another great not be anomaly in the present electoral Act, and so hypocritical as to point that is to be found in the provision for to this side of the House and speak a member to be elected to the legislative about Russia and Places of that des- Council and the fact that he has to be cription where there are dictatorships. at least 30 years of age. It is very doubt- Here, even though the Government is ful to mae whether the administrative abi- elected on the basis of full adult franchise, lity and brain power needed to be a legis- it cannot govern. Members on both sides lator in the Legislative Council will be of the House have said that the State does found merely in the age-group beyond 30 not advance. I point out that a lot of the years. If I were to think that were so, I legislation that has been sent on from here could be fooled very easily. Then again, but has been thrown out by another place it is just as lamentable that aLpolitical has retarded the growth of the State. Party such as the great Australian Labour Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty: To which legis- Party-which in the last general election lation do you refer? for the State captured more than half the votes in Western Australia.--should be Mr. POTTER: Quite a lot of legislation. prevented from having its entire legisla- Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty: What particular tive programme carried out by the actions legislation? Be specific. of people who are wedded to the past Mr. POTTER: The price control measure Tory traditions. I ask: is that democracy? Is one. That was thrown out in another The Opposition has nothing to fear In place, and we are suffering today as a any proposal for adult franchise for the result Legislative Council. Before 1953, the Lib- eral Party occupied the Government Mr. Wild: Do you think that price con- benches, so it has nothing to be afraid of. trol was ever effective? Do its adherents have to hide in subter- Mr. POTTER: I do, to a certain extent. fuge and political gerrymandering and sup- port a restrictive basis? I am not asking Mr. Wild:, You ask the suburban grocer for any political advantage, but am ap- and he will tell you he made more under pealing to all members of the Opposition price control than ever before. to climb down from their monument of Mr. POTTER: That may be, but it intolerance. I ask them to give this Bill stabilised conditions to a certain degree. a fair go;, to support it and pay tribute Mr. Wild: The maximum becomes the to democracy, by enabling all electors of minimum then. Western Australia to elect members to both Houses of Parliament and so have expres- Mr. POTTER: I understand that, too. sions of thought clearly heard in the Par- The other night the Premier pointed out liament of this State. that price control operated under a Liberal Government in South Australia. MR. POTTER (Sublaco) [9.58]: I, too, The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Would would like to support this measure. I the hon. member please come back. to the wonder, when I do, how many have stood Bill. in my place since the year 1832 in rela- tion to altering the franchise of a parti- Mr. POTTER: Yes, I am coming back. cular place. Just imagine, since 1832 the Hon. D, Brand: I thought you were people have not had the opportunity of voting on this important question! After going away. all is said and done, we have, during the Mr. POTTER: The Upper House has passage of time, made a number of altera- defeated other legislation. I can mention tions to the -franchise of the people. I am the rent control Bill. I could enumerate a not going back over history to repeat that number of others, but I have not made a we obtained full adult franchise for this research into this matter. I can remember, House when the Constitution Act was, I however, that over the years various items believe, amended In 1901. of legislation sent forward by this House [ASSEMBLY.] have been rejected. In consequence, the Mr. POTTER: No. I suggest that when Government, although it is elected by the it comes to dealing with a Bill like this. majority of the People, cannot, by virtue a five year plan would come better from of the restrictions placed upon it, govern the other side. I imagine that if anyone to the degree that it should. The Legisla- came from the five-year-plan countries tive Council has more Dower than the and saw this piece of legislation that pre- House of Lords in England. There appears vents people from having the franchise to be some justice in that country inasmuch and prevents us from being the democratic as if a piece of legislation is sent to the country we should be, they would learn a House of Lords three times in 12 months lot and they would say, "We are not the it becomes law. But here nothing can be only dictatorship in the world." I read done apart from removing the House or somewhere that when Marx saw the House electing a majority to it; and I suggest of Lords, it gave him some ideas for his this will be done. I regret that members writings, but I am not too conversant with of the Opposition are not motivated by a that gentleman's views, so I cannot say sense of justice in that they will not realise very much on the subject. At the same that adult franchise for that House could time I do suggest that if people from the mean that it would be truly a house of U.S.S.R. could see what we have here in review. At the present time I believe that the shape of that Chamber- it is just a party house. Mr. Ross Hutchinson: In the shape of If the present attitude is continually what Chamber? adopted, the progress of the State will be considerably retarded by members in an- Mr. POTTER: I therefore suggest to other place. I think that is typified in this members opposite that there is no need to piece of legislation because it has been Point to this side of the House and talk brought down many times. The Govern- about a five-year plan because, with all due ment has, in past years, in various ways respect, it should come from the other side. tried to broaden the franchise of the Upper When talking about communism, that sort House. I could talk about the soldier who of franchise would be very suitable in the goes to fight for his country but has not U.S.S.R., and I think they would agree the right to vote for the Legislative Coun- to it. cil, but that argument has been put be- I have much pleasure in supporting this fore members opposite on many occasions. piece of legislation and I hope that mem- Lads who, when they go overseas, have a bers opposite will give it a reasoned ap- vote for this Chamber and for the Comn- proach. A lot of bitterness is engendered monwealth Parliament are denied the outside because people have not the oppor- franchise for the Legislative Council. tunity of being enrolled or given the fran- It seems, in 1956, an anachronism that chise. For that reason, I suggest to mem- in Western Australia. in this jet-propelled bers that they support the Bill. I know age, we should have on our statute book this seems to be a hardy annual, and prob- this piece of legislation, which had its ably pages and pages of Hansard have been genesis in 1832. I appeal to members wasted on it, but the fact that it is such opposite to take notice of what has been a hardy annual is because of the pressure said and often mentioned in "The West that is so often brought forward to libera- Australian" and quoted by my colleague, lise the franchise and make the Chamber the member for Kalgoorlie. It does not a workable proposition in the light of to- matter how long a person speaks on this day's scientific advances and in relation to subject, he will not get too far. There is the age that we now live in. I support the only one thing to do, and that Is to do it Bill. the hard way and it will be done the hard on motion by the Premier, debate ad- way, and make no mistake about it! But, journed. before that becomes necessary, I suggest to members opposite that they consider liberalising the franchise in keeping with SUSPENSION OF SITTING. the times and with the psychological feel- The PREMIER: In view of the fact that ings of the people. members had an all-night sitting last night Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: What do you and a very strenuous pre-tea session today, mean by "the hard way"? I suggest that you, Sir, might leave the Chair until the ringing of the bells. Mr. POTTER: The hard way will be the method that the Labour Party has had to Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I shall leave adopt to get the members there that they the Chair until the ringing of the bells. have at the present moment. I am sug- gesting that it will not be very long before sitting sus~pentded from 10210 to 10.40 p.m. they will have sufficient members, more than the hon. member cares to Imagine. BILL-MARKETING OF POTATOES I mean, they will have a majority in that ACT AMENDMENT. Chamber. Council's Amendments. Hon. D. Brand: Have you got a five-year plan, or some sort of a plan to achieve Returned from the Council with a that? schedule of four amendments. C6 September, 1956.1

In Committee. As a consequence it could well be that, considering the challenge they have made Mr. Heal in the Chair; the Mtinister for to constituted authority and the unlaw- Lands in charge of the Bill. ful growing of potatoes for someone other No. 1. than the Potato Marketing Board to handle, the board would be in a position clause 1. page 1. Add after the figures of having to absorb an unknown quantity '1946,"1 in line 10, the following "-1949,". of potatoes that were originally grown for The MINISTER FOR LANDS: I have the Eastern States market but then had no objection to the amendment. It is flooded the Western Australian market. So merely to correct an error in the drafting the authority of the board and the security of of our present method of marketing sanely the Bill. I move- that has applied all these years, could be That the amendment be agreed to. destroyed unless this Parliament is pre- Question put and passed; the Council's pared at a later stage in this session, to amendment agreed to. extend the provisions of the Bill. I do not think the members of the Legis- No. 2. lative Council are fully aware of the cir- Clause 1. page 2. Insert before the cumstances that could easily arise. They figures "11956" in line 6, the following. had an opportunity this afternoon of ac- "1946-." cepting an amendment which would have included a provision extending the opera- The MNISTER FOR LANDS: For the tion of the measure until the 30th Septem- same reason, I have no objection to the ber next year, but they declined to have amendment and I move- anything to do with it. I am not worried That the amendment be agreed to. about the potatoes that are going to be Council's dug and marketed as from the 1st October Question put and passed; the this year, because they are grown under amendment agreed to. licence and come under the control of the No. 3. zsoard, but we have to look into the new year without knowing how many growers Clause 2. page 3. Delete the word are going to break away from the standard "seven," in line 20 and substitute the practice of accepting a licence, and of not word ",six." being aware of the extent of the acreage, The MINISTER FOR LANDS: I am dis- or what the crop will be. appointed that the Legislative Council has The potatoes will be planted on the as- seen fit to restrict the operation of this sumption that they will find a ready mar- Act to a mere three months from today. ket in the Eastern States and if at a later The position could arise where the Potato date they are thrust on the Western Aust- Marketing Board would have no control trallan market they could cause such over potatoes produced In this State in chaotic conditions to arise that the author- the new year. or over the crop which is ity of the board for that length of time normally planted between November and could be seriously endangered. February next. Unless the board is given authority to Personally, I cannot understand how a considerably greater extent than is pro- some members of the Legislative Council, posed by the amendment, it could be representing potato-growing areas, were placed in the position where unlicensed not aware of that fact; and if they were growers, as a result of this Bill failing to aware of it, why they failed to act on it. pass both Houses before the 31st Decem- If they were aware and failed to act, it ber, 1956, will prepare to produce potatoes can mean only one thing, that they are in the meantime for an Eastern States' far more concerned about destroying what market which may not at that time even will be a useful measure, if not for all time exist. As I understand the member for at least for the period until Parliament Blackwood, when speaking yesterday can review it again next year. Then there potatoes grown for the Eastern States are the effects their action is likely to have would be dug around November this year. on the authority of the marketing board That would be a week or two before the on the one hand and the consumers in present session of Parliament adjourns. this State on the other. if this legislation is not continued and I am bitterly disappointed. It seems to the board is not permitted to follow the me that members have accepted the Bill lines suggested in the Bill beyond the 31st partially, whereas in their minds they December, 1956, it will have no opportunity really do not want to have anything to to judge the capacity of the Eastern States do with it at all. This brings me back demand or how the failure of the normal to saying that I have known, during the trading methods with suitable prices will last three years, of two occasions when discourage the unlicensed growers to send the Liberal Party in this Chamber has at- their potatoes there. It will have no know- tempted by a block vote-It has not lost ledge of the possible outcome. one vote of its members-to destroy useful [ASSEMBLY.] marketing legislation. I do not think mem- The CHAIRMAN: Order! Will the hon. bers have been entirely honest in their member resume his seat? Standing Order approach to the Bill. They have been No. 130 provides-- more concerned about the political con- No member shall allude to any de- sequences of voting against it than with bate in the other House of Parliament, the useful effect it could have by becoming or to any measure impending therein. law. Because of whatever value there is in the I am afraid I will not be able to allow the Bill for a limited period, I am compelled to hon. member to continue. accept it, but I do so in the hope that we Mr. HEAIMAN: The point is that when will, by one means or another, find suffi- the Minister hears what took place he cient evidence between now and the end might feel there is a good deal of merit- of the session to justify a continuance of The Minister for Lands: I know all about the measure. If we do not do that, then it. wrhatever harm to, or upsetting of, the orderly marketing which has been a feature Mr. HEARMAN: -in accepting the of this State for many years, is brought amendment, because it will clear the air about, it will be as a result of the attitude considerably. of members sitting opposite and those in The Minister for Lands: The air is com- another place. I regret very much having pletely clear. to accept the Council's amendment No. 3. Mr. HEARMA": Unfortunately, in view I move- of the Chairman's ruling, I cannot explain That the amendment be agreed to. my position to the Minister. If the Minister Mr. HEARMAN: I am pleased the Min- will discuss the matter with me afterwards, ister has agreed to accept the amendment. he will be much more satisfied to accept Mr. Lapham: Under pressure. the amendment. The Minister for Health: Why stone- The Minister for Lands:- I know all about wall it? it. it Is completely untrue. Mr. HEARMAN: If the Minister will Mr. HEARMAN: I hope the Minister is give me a chance, he will realise what I right. have to say. I think the Minister's fears Question put and passed, the Council's are, to a large extent, unfounded. It will amendment agreed to. be possible, if we so desire, to put continu- No. 4. ing legislation through this session. The minister for Lands: On what basis Title--Add after the figures "11948" the would we do that? following "1-1949". Mr, HEARMAN: I think the Minister's The MINISTER FOR LANS: I move- fears about the results of this particular That the amendment be agreed to- provision lapsing, as it were, by the end Question put and passed; the Council's of December, are perhaps more imaginary amendment agreed to. than real. What concerns him Is that we Resolutions reported, the report adopted could be confronted with a lot of unlicensed growers intending to market their potatoes and a message accordingly returned to the in the Eastern States and then, finding Council. that there Is no market there, putting their House adjourned at 11.10 p.m. potatoes on the local market. The essence of the Bill is to prevent growers from sel- ling their potatoes to the Eastern States. if they cannot sell them there, and the Minister thinks that is going to create a difficulty, the Bill will not make a scrap of difference. A completely different set of circumstances will arise whereby we will have a surplus of potatoes in Australia and no outlet in the Eastern States. I think the Minister's fears there are groundless. Tonight I listened to the debate in an- other place and I heard some allegations made by certain members there, something along the lines I made. It was pointed out that growers thought that some ministerial pressure had been brought to bear on the board, and that it accounted for some of the board's actions. I think the Minister is aware of this, but I am putting It to him so that he may know. An explanation of what happened was given by the Minister for Railways.