Proquest Dissertations

Home , I Wanna Go

WHAT DO WORKING PERFORMERS IN THE WASHINGTON, DC

AREA KNOW: DESCRIBING ARTS ADVOCACY & COMMUNITY

Nathaniel Russ, Jr.

Submitted to the

Faculty ofthe College of Arts and Sciences

of American University

in Partial Fulfillment of

the Requirements for the Degree of

Master of Arts

Dean of the College of Arts & Sciences ~)u._~el \1. 20\\J Date

2010

American University

Washington, D.C. 20016

AMERICAN UNIVERSITY liBRARY q(od- f.. UMI Number: 1487350

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Nathaniel Russ, Jr.

2010

AREA KNOW: DESCRIBING ARTS ADVOCACY & COMMUNITY

Nathaniel Russ, Jr.

ABSTRACT

This study examines how professional performers define arts advocacy and community, as a means to create practices and tools to empower them to advocate for themselves. Arts Advocacy adequately addresses the overall concerns of the arts sector and of established organizations. Yet in streamlining the advocacy process, a few major goals have to be selected, while the goals of different and smaller communities of artists receive varying levels of support, depending on the networks set up within each field.

By examining the education, training, and work-lifestyle of professional performance artists, and documenting existing beliefs about arts advocacy and community, we can gain an understanding ofhow working performers' professional life affects their civic one. We can also enable individual artists' civic life to better their professional one. In the end, this study will show that empowering artists to self-advocate will give arts advocacy a much needed boost, but that it begins with working artists own beliefs and understanding about community and advocacy.

11 PREFACE

In 2006, I attended my first Arts Advocacy Day, as organized by Americans for the

Arts. This was required as part of the Capstone class for Dance majors, at the University of Maryland, College Park. I continued to attend Arts Advocacy Day for the following three years, and observed that the main advocates for the arts continued to be arts administrators, while the main body of working artists seemed to be disconnected and unaware of this coordinated effort to advocate for the arts.

I wanted to know where the disconnect occurred. I wanted to discover where the point of entry might be. And so in getting to the essence of the conversation I had been having with myself, I came to a starting place. This begins with understanding how working performers defined community and arts advocacy. Arts advocacy works on a policy level, because Americans for the Arts mobilized the community of Arts

Administrators. But in order to mobilize communities of artists, we have to understand how they identify their own communities. In order to teach them to advocate for the arts, we have to understand what advocacy means to them.

111 ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

First, I would like to thank my parents, who have provided unconditional support throughout my higher educational journey; thanks to my mom for supporting my reach for the stars, and thanks to my dad for ingraining the need for a solid foundation to reach from. Thanks to the rest of my family, particularly in the area, for supporting my various endeavors on stage.

Second, thanks to my friends who have been there through my roller coaster in and out of school, for the better part of the decade. I suppose it is a little easier when someone goes away, but to those that have stayed by my side, to those that have been an essential part of my community, thank you.

Third, thank you to all of my teachers and mentors, particularly Michael Bobbitt,

Karen Bradley, Peter DiMuro, & Roberta Gasbarre. Karen, it is because ofyou that I got bit with the advocacy bug. Michael, you have been a big brother both on and off stage; my values as a performer and as an administrator are in large part thanks to you. Karen and Peter, you took what might have been a simple reflection into a plan for action. This thesis will bring about change due to your guidance throughout this process. Thank you.

lV TABLE OF CONTENTS

ABSTRACT ...... ii

PREFACE ...... iii

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS ...... iv

Chapter

1. INTRODUCTION ...... 1

Statement of the Problem

Research Questions

Purpose of the Study

Importance of the Study

Definitions ofTerms

Limitations

Scope of the Study

2. REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE ...... 9

Arts Advocacy

Community

Artist Advocacy

Summary

v 3. METHODOLOGY ...... l3

The Qualitative Perspective

Phenomenography

Participants

Data Collection

Analysis of the Data

4. FINDINGS ...... 19

5. CONCLUSIONS ...... 22

Four Major Conclusions

Reflections

Recommendations for Further Study

APPENDIX ...... 30

A. IRB APPROVAL

B. CONSENTS OF PARTICIPATION

C. INTERVIEW PROTOCOL

D. NARRATIVE INTERVIEWS

BIBLIOGRAPHY ...... 157

VI CHAPTER 1

INTRODUCTION

Arts advocacy efforts in the past several decades have focused on the support of organizations providing art rather than on addressing the basic needs of artists. The most prominent evidence of this shift, is marked by the National Endowment for the Arts' change in policy to discontinue funding for individual artists in the mid 1990s. As a result, the meaning of Arts Advocacy has evolved and exists along a spectrum bookended between the intrinsic and extrinsic values of art. On a policy level, this has shifted more to the extrinsic end of the spectrum, portraying the arts sector as a means to other ends.

Arts advocacy efforts have been very effective in relating the arts sector to important political issues and concerns. I believe that in addressing the service of arts organizations as a tool to assist with broader issues, the argument for arts as an end itself has become secondary. The most recent iteration of the argument for the arts has been the role that arts organizations play in economic stimulus. Arts advocates now in a reactionary role, need to constantly develop a new case of support in order to remain relevant. This way of thinking not only harms the arts by making it the means to another end, rather than an end in itself, but also endangers the livelihoods of the artists that depend on work in this field to support themselves.

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Arts Advocacy has focused on the support of organizations, arts leaders, arts administrators, arts managers, and other arts supporters play the role of arts advocates.

This policy level approach to representing the sector on an organizational level is effective to a point. But the bulk of non-administrative working artists, and those in smaller and younger organizations, are not effectively engaged in arts advocacy efforts.

Unfortunately, the majority of artists are not even aware of arts advocacy on a local, much less national, level. As a result, most working artists are absent from advocacy efforts for the arts as a whole but also for themselves as individuals. Finding out why artists do not advocate on a grassroots level could help create tools to enable and empower them to effectively speak up for themselves, rather than relying on others to represent them.

Statement of the Problem

I have observed that Arts Advocacy has become institutionalized to the point that it has become limited by its own prominence. This refers to my observation that artists and arts organizations have come to rely on advocacy groups such as American for the

Arts, local arts councils, and other similar organizations, to represent them. This rests on the assumption that artists and arts organizations are aware of those entities, to begin with.

As a community of artists, there are only so many issues that are common to all.

From my own experience from sitting on a small grants panel at the DC Commission for the Arts & Humanities, I have seen that the needs of a visual artist versus a performing artist are not the same. And even within those, the difference between the space and time 3

demands of a photographer versus a sculptor, or an actor versus a dancer, further limit the issues addressed by arts advocacy, which actually affect all artists.

Artist advocacy is often thought of as a subset of arts advocacy, and while the two are related, they ultimately have different primary goals, and therefore different meanings. Arts advocacy ultimately supports arts organizations, as a sector. While this indirectly might support some artists, it does not address ways to secure basic needs for artists as a whole. More importantly, until artists are empowered enough to know that they can take action independent of organizations, to better their lives and their worlds, artist advocacy under the umbrella of arts advocacy will not bring about sustainable change. Artist advocacy, on the other hand, enables artists to simply represent themselves as individuals. Most importantly artist advocacy could provide a means for artists to define the arts communities they belong to. In defining the goals and addressing the needs of a group, it allows working performers to take a look at, invest in, and be a part of a community that in my experience, can often be very ephemeral, as shows begin and end, thrusting individuals in and out of what can be very close and intimate communities.

Artist advocacy can reinforce what can be a powerful but fleeting sense of community.

The focus of this study brings up many questions, as I explore the content of my research materials further. Some of the first that immediately come to mind, however, are the following: How do performers perceive and value their community? How does a performer's lifestyle affect their understanding of advocacy and community? What do performers do to inform others, raise awareness, and make their needs heard? 4

Research Questions

How do education, training, and lifestyle affect how working performers define

Arts Advocacy and Community?

What is the role of individual performers in Arts Advocacy?

How are current models of Arts Advocacy not meeting the needs of working performers?

Purpose of the Study

The main goal of this study is to understand the different ways individual artists define arts advocacy and community. Primary sources will lead to two analysis: a descriptive analysis within the community of artists and also a comparative analysis with regards to how individuals might come to understand advocacy and how organizations define and use advocacy.

Part of the reason it is essential to know how artists understand community is to see how artists relate their own needs and concerns to others within their field, as well as inform one how empowered artists feel to effect change. "Community offers the promise of belonging and calls for us to acknowledge our interdependence. To belong is to act as an investor, owner, and creator of this place" (Block, 2008 p.3). Without a sense of community, artists might see challenges as personal issues, to be handled individually and unable to be addressed as a group. But before I can answer those questions, the foundation of any further discourse or research is in understanding how these words are defined in the DC community of performers. Because ofthe nature ofthis study, I believe that a phenomenography is the most appropriate research methodology. 5

Importance of the Study

Performing Arts organizations and higher education performance programs have a vested interest in this inquiry. Research will provide an outline for recommended skills with regards to knowing the business of the arts as well as living a civic life through arts advocacy. I make a case that there are elements missing in education and training, as to how our work affects us as individuals, community members, and citizens. One of the lenses with which I contextualize this study, is through Music Advocacy and Student

Leadership: Key Components ofEvery Successful Music Program, and in its

Introduction, Joseph Scagnoli (2005) began with, "Never before has the need for advocacy and strong leadership in music and the arts been more important to us than during this time of changing educational trends" (p. 15). I believe that this study will shed light that while education and training give performers the tools for a successful professional life, those two factors in conjunction with the work-lifestyle of performing professionally can have secondary effects on the social and civic lives of students after they finish their studies.

This study is of significance to the participants because awareness of how our work-lifestyle might socially handicap us with regards to engagement and civil awareness, will allow performing artists in the DC area to discover and cultivate the ability to find their individual and collective voice, in order to increase their own quality of life as their art increases others. Examining how artists define arts advocacy and community will explore any unintended, negative effects of a performing arts career.

While educational and work experience further the skills and careers of working 6

performers, there are aspects of the arts sector that are left out because they might not directly relate to the creation or presentation of a performance. Yet when performers are not on stage, what are they doing off stage?

The arts have done an adequate job of remaining relevant, of balancing intrinsic and extrinsic arguments, in order to maintain funding and political support of institutions, organizations, and programs. Yet while these organizations seem to represent "Art" as an abstract concept, often it is confused for supporting the artist and the larger arts community of people actually practicing the arts as well. There is a difference between a community of organizations and its administrators, and the community of artists, which enable those institutions to function. But there is a lack of research as to how artists define their communities, both among other artists, and among non-artists. There is also little explanation as to why more artists do not advocate for the arts, whether as part of a national day of advocacy, or merely in corresponding regularly with their representatives.

Granted, there are a number of famous performers who do have the time, the money, and the star-power to advocate for the arts. However, these are not the artists which are the focus of this study. The artists that this study seeks to shed light on are those that might not have the fame or national reputation, but do have social capital within their communities and the region, assets and qualities which are just as important and crucial to cultivate.

Thanks to new research with regards to work-life balance, there is a chance that the lifestyle performers have to develop in order to pursue their passion, often working a full-time job during the week, or part-time at restaurants and bars, to subsidize their 7

meager artists' wages, could possibly have a detrimental effect on performers' beliefs about both advocacy and community. In looking at community, Ways ofLiving: Work,

Community and Lifestyle Choice (Blyton, Bludson, Reed & Dastmalchian, 2010) the authors examined how lifestyle could affect and change individuals:

"To understand how people live their lives -their ways of living - we must understand the values that motivate people, the beliefs that frame the way they interpret their worlds, and the social and institutional structures that constrain and provide opportunities for them to act on these desires and beliefs" (p. 3)

By seeing if there are any trends between a number of factors, particularly education, training and work-lifestyle, and how performers perceive advocacy and community

(Block, 2008), we might gain insight into the civic values of working performers, especially as they relate to grassroots advocacy on the part of individual artists, for their profession, their field, and ultimately themselves.

Definitions of Terms

There are some terms that need clarification. I will use the following definitions as a standard to specify meanings of these words in this context. For the purpose of this research, I will clarify the following terms.

Advocacy exists on a spectrum, which I will define the two extremes as follows.

One definition of advocacy is "speaking up for yourself or for others when you think people with power over your life are ignoring your needs" (Tufail & Lyon, 2005, p. 17).

The second definition of advocacy is "an organized political process that involves the coordinated efforts of people to change policies, practices, ideas, and values that 8

perpetuate inequality, prejudices, and exclusion" (VeneKlasen, Miller, Budlender &

Clark, 2002, p. 22).

Bacon (2009) defined community as "a collection of people who interact together in the same environment" (p.5). He also described these interactions producing something that is quintessential to community, a feeling of belonging. "Education" will refer to any learning done within the context of a formal program within a school, college, or university. Training refers to any learning done outside of such institutions, at art organizations, with companies, or other similar programs. Work-lifestyle refers to the time demand of pursuing a career in the performing arts. This addresses the quantity of time as well as any regularity or irregularity of schedule.

Finally, when talking about working performers, or pursuing the performing arts professionally, I am referring to people who perform and are financially compensated for their time and energy. This also refers to working stage professionals, so this study excludes recording artists, musicians who make a living selling music rather than performing live, for example. The term artists, in the context of this study, will also be used to refer to working performers, as specified above.

Limitations

Limitations of this study include the following. I selected a small sample size, of eight individuals who were interviewed and thirty who responded to a survey. Of the eight individuals interviewed, three were born in 1981, three in 1984, and two in 1987.

Results might not represent the views of older professional performers, or those of a similar age who have been working longer. 9

Other limitations include focusing only on certain sectors within the performing arts field, particularly actors, dancers, musicians, or some combination of the three. This study does not include other theatre professionals who are more involved with the production aspect, such as sound designers, scenic designers, music directors, etc. This study also excludes the visual arts.

Scope of the Study

This study explored how working performing artists in the Washington, DC area, defined arts advocacy and community. It inquired as to the education, training, and work-lifestyle of these working performers, to examine any possible relationship between the professional life of performers, and their civic life. I have also compared and contrasted the data collected to established definitions of advocacy and community, in order to examine how to better inform artists how to advocate for themselves and their community. CHAPTER2

REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE

The literature review will address three areas related to how working performers in the Washington, DC area define arts advocacy and community. The first section will address the evolution of arts advocacy strategies. The second section will focus on the challenges and issues around community in the arts sector. Finally, the third section will discuss literature making the case for a more civically minded arts workforce.

Arts Advocacy

In 2002, the National Assembly of State Arts Agencies published a guide highlighting strategies for building arts support. In making public support for the arts a matter of public policy, arguments weighted the sector as a means to another sectors ends. This agenda made the arts relevant to education, at-risk youth, business, tourism, and economic development. While this premise has been functional, by focusing on the secondary effects of the arts sector, arts advocacy has marginalized the function of art itself.

The following year, Joli Jensen (2003) began an article published in The journal ofarts management, law, and society with the argument "that arts advocacy should focus on what art is rather than what arts does" (p. 65). She continued the article and wrote that this instrumental perspective effectively turned the arts into "social medicine" and

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"cultural spinach". While she explored a breadth of relevant issues, including the perceived dichotomy between high art and low entertainment, the core of her argument rested in the need for arts advocacy to move from an instrumental perspective of the value of art, to an expressive one. As this shift happens, arts advocacy will stop relying on arguments based on using the arts as a tool for some other good, and will focus of the good in the mere experience of art.

This shift can be seen in Constance Bumgarner Gee's piece, Valuing the arts on their own terms (2007). Gee focused on the need within arts education to refocus the value of arts on its intrinsic qualities, rather than the ability for the arts to improve students' skills in other subjects. She highlighted that even this instrumental argument for arts erodes the ability to advocate for arts education itself, such as in a school that has no need to improve an already excelling student body. The most striking observation Gee made, pointed out the disconnect between "publicly-funded professional arts advocates" and the working artist.

Community

Dance/USA conducted a study in 2003, which addressed community, with regards to assessing the needs of the Washington, DC area dance community as a whole. One finding discovered that this community was "fragmented into numerous groups or

'circles' that do not communicate well with each other and do not have stable mechanisms for collaborative efforts" (p.l ). While those who conducted the study might have had a specific definition when they used the term community, dancers within the sample group might have had varying meanings of the same term. 12

In addressing challenges for cultural policy, Vera L. Zolberg (2003) focused on new meanings of community. She argued that "if 'culture,' 'cultural policy,' and 'art' are problematic, 'community' is even more difficult to pinpoint" (p. 299). Understanding community will allow the arts sector to better advocate for the needs of the larger community of artists, but also smaller communities of artists.

Assessing working performers' descriptions of community could help build a foundation to understand how the professional lives of performers affect their civic ones.

One reason for believing this not only has to do with the work-lifestyle of working artists, but even thoughts about how the space we work in, affects our beliefs about community.

"Every room we occupy serves as a metaphor for the larger community that we want to create. This is true socially and also physically" (Block, 2008, p. 152). Apply this to the typical audition, rehearsal, and production process of life on the stage, and working artists are already operating in a disempowered way, subject to auditors for casting, directors for choices, and audiences and critics for approval.

Artist Advocacy

Over the past decade the call to mobilize and empower artists has grown. Jill

Dolan contributed an article in the journal Theatre topics (200 1), and she argued "we could do the university and society a great service by training our students to participate in public life through the arts" (p. 8). I would go on to say that we should start with simply giving students the tools to participate in civic life in any way.

With regards to arts advocacy, Ben Cameron (2004) asked in American Theatre,

"how much more effective we could be if we insure that our actors .... understood the 13

issues surrounding government policy and the funding issues for the particular theatre where they work" (p. 8). Actors make up just one of the multiple areas in which we could empower arts organizations to fully utilize all of their social capital and resources.

Most of the suggestions made involved simple methods of awareness, and other ways to inform.

In 2005, the American Arts Alliance revamped their website, as part of an effort to assist grassroots action. Rachel Lyons, the alliance's manager, said "the best advocates for the performing arts are really performing artists. They have to know how to do this" (Jacobs, 2005, p. 4). While relatively recent, arts advocates and organizations have acknowledged on various levels that artists need to be mobilized and enabled to speak for themselves.

Summary

Arts advocacy and artist advocacy intersect on some levels, while existing at two ends of a spectrum. Arts advocacy works on a policy level, mobilizing larger communities of artist to come together on major issues, which affect the sector as a whole. An efficient method to a point, only so many mutual concerns can be addressed by advocacy organizations representing artists and the arts sector at large. To take arts advocacy to the next level, the mobilization of smaller communities and individual artists needs to happen. Before that can happen, we need to understand how artists define their communities and fit into them. We need to know what challenges there might be with the demanding work-lifestyle of most professional performers. And we have to know 14

what artists already think of what arts advocacy means, so that we can better explore what grassroots advocacy can do, and how it can compliment current strategies. CHAPTER3

METHODOLOGY

The purpose of this study is to describe the perspectives of working DC area performers on Arts Advocacy & Community using a phenomenography design, by engaging individuals in a discussion of themes and patterns with regards to performers' ability to self-advocate. By understanding how these terms compare and contrast between artists, I will have a body of knowledge to suggest to the arts sector a means to mobilize an untapped army of advocates. I examine_d how the culture and lifestyle of working as a performer affects DC area performing artists' awareness of and involvement in Arts

Advocacy, and affect individuals performer's perception and understanding of community. I used open-ended interviews, and a survey as my primary sources of data collection.

The Qualitative Perspective

Qualitative research is the art of synthesizing data into new knowledge, not merely accumulating and regurgitating it. As opposed to quantitative research, qualitative work empowers the researcher to become a key element of the study executed, and the learning gained. It also gives purpose to the research that goes beyond simply knowing, but doing as well. "Research should have the goal of improving some social circumstance, whatever form that takes" (Rossman & Rallis 4). My study addresses

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issues that are just beginning to surface, particularly as politics and funding become more and more relevant to the world of individual artists, while information and civic life become more accessible through Web 2.0 and Social Media tools.

As a qualitative researcher, I lean towards Critical Humanism. I am an active member of the community of working performers in the Washington, DC area, and fully intend to use this study to affect change in that community. "The critical humanist researcher is explicitly participatory in the research project, sharing the initiation, conduct, analysis, and writing with those studied" (Rossman & Rallis 46-4 7). At its core, my study is not just a means to learn more about my social world, but to synthesize new knowledge for emancipatory use, so that "participants [can] take actions that empower themselves and change oppressive structures and practices" (Rossman & Rallis 23). In this case, the oppressive structure and practice might simply emerge as the secondary effects of the skills and values we develop as performing artists, which unknowingly affect our civic and social lives.

Phenomenography

Akerlind defmed phenomenography as research whose outcomes are represented

"analytically as a number of qualitatively different meanings or ways of experiencing the phenomenon, but also including the structural relationships linking these different ways of experiencing" (Akerlind 322). Phenomenography is the best design for this study, as the essence of my topic and question address how performers experience arts advocacy and community, in addition to attempting to understand possible reasons for any trends or discrepancies. 17

My study maintains Akerlind's concrete descriptions of practice, in that I have based the bulk of my analysis on information gained from my primary sources, the interviews and surveys. I have used my secondary sources to provide context and help define the body of meanings, which my participants described with regards to arts advocacy and community, as it means to them.

Participants

I selected professional performing artists through purposive sampling. Performers who are working artists in the Washington, DC Metropolitan area, defme my sample criteria. These characteristics might indicate homogenous sampling within the field of performing artists, rather than including visual artists as well, but at the same time attempted to have maximum variation from the participants in that sampling with regards to education, training, field (dance, music, theatre, etc.), and work lifestyle.

Data Collection

In the design of this study, I am responsible for two main areas, interviews and surveys. I have taken field notes and will include thoughts on how different elements of the performance process can affect community and awareness of advocacy.

I have interviewed working performers who reside and work in the DC area with regards to their education, training, lifestyle, arts advocacy and community. The interviews were important because they shed light on how working performers understood "community" and "arts advocacy" as it related to their lives. The surveys were included to add to the sample body, and observe if any trends were present in 18

performer's understanding of the two main terms. Since I conducted an open-ended interview, I let the narrative and discussion divulge any pertinent and relevant information, whether anticipated or unexpected.

Analysis of the Data

I analyzed the data through a three-step process. The first step involved standardizing definitions for "advocacy" and "community", in order to provide a context for the interviews. The literature review formed the foundation for this step. The second step occurred when I asked subjects to define the two terms. The purpose of this lay in encouraging subjects to describe these concepts subjectively, and not trying to provide an objective, textbook definition. In analyzing the transcripts, I looked for common themes, which different subjects shared, and how those themes compared against the context I had established. The third step had two aspects to it, as they applied the terms defined in step two and described how community and advocacy manifested themselves in their personal lives. The first part of this step compared the secondary meaning with the first.

In the case of community, I compared the subjects' self-identified communities, against their defmition of community itself. With regards to advocacy and arts advocacy, I analyzed how their understanding of the former transferred to the latter, if at all. CHAPTER4

FINDINGS

The interviews and survey provided great insight into the lives of working performers with regards to their understanding of arts advocacy and community. Over the course of the interviews, a narrative emerged connecting education, training, and work-lifestyle to working artists' professional and civic lives. I used similar questions, which guided the interviews, for the survey. Several themes emerged from the interviews: a lack of professional support in educational and training programs to support basic needs

(i.e. insurance, taxes), a work-lifestyle that does not encourage stability, temporal definitions of community, and diverse interpretations of arts advocacy. Answers submitted through the survey reinforced these themes.

Profossional support. I asked subjects if their work met their needs and of the eight, only two of the performers replied affirmatively. These were also the two artists who were member of the American Guild of Musical Artists (AGMA). The remainder of subjects replied that they struggled to meet their needs, and most acknowledged that they subsidized their performing career with at least one other job. Almost all those interviewed also said that many of the practical concerns that they dealt with, were not addressed formally in any educational setting. Seven out of eight subjects completed at least a two-year degree program, and six out of eight received their letters in performing

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arts majors. The majority of those who participated in the survey, also received at least undergraduate degrees from four-year institutions, but also felt like their work did not meet their needs.

Work-lifestyle. Subjects described a work-lifestyle that demanded more than a full-time job, due to the balancing act ofjuggling at least two professional engagements at a time. In addition, there was a degree of fluctuation in the demand on their time, depending on whether subjects were looking for work, in rehearsals for a piece, or in the run of a performance. Often times, artists happened to have a regular, non-performing job, with managers who understood and accommodated their need to be flexible.

Community. The one constant definition seven out of eight subjects gave, defined community as a '"group of people". What defined that group differed with each answer, except for a couple of themes. The first related to the idea of a community having a shared goal. The second spoke to a feeling of interdependency, in that a community

'"look[s] out for each other", contains '"energies that help propel you forward" and provides '"something that you can depend on". When asked what communities they belonged to, only a couple mentioned family, a couple named the DC dance community, several included the DC theatre community, and others identified specific arts organizations as their community, particularly for the time that they worked on a piece at a given company. The general feeling seemed to defme community outside of friends and family, as either a larger artists community particular to their medium, or smaller, short-term, project based communities. Those who participated in the survey reinforced these definitions. 21

Arts Advocacy. Subjects generally defmed "advocacy" similar to working definitions of the word. Some subjects provided the following descriptions of their understanding:

"Advocacy is, to me, working to give a voice to people who can't necessarily get their voice in the right ear"

"speaking on behalf of the cause you believe in, or somebody that can't speak for themself, or trying to spread a message of something that wouldn't necessarily be heard otherwise"

"if there's something that is important to you, that you are willing to take a stand for, and take that extra effort to make sure that it becomes a reality, or ceases to be one, I think that's advocacy"

"When I think of advocacy ... a group of people, or a group in general, pushing for and fighting for something that they believe, whether it's something that they want to happen, something that they are trying to not have happen, or just awareness in general."

Overall, subjects' defmitions are summarized in the following general understandings of advocacy: speaking up, providing awareness and information, representing those disempowered, teaching and acting as a role model, and a group of people acting with a common goal. One subject, however, described his feelings on advocacy and said it seemed like this "alien word", which was cold and distanced from art.

However, when asked to define arts advocacy, answers were varied. Some subjects provided the following descriptions of arts advocacy:

"using arts themselves as a method of advocacy for other groups"

"advocating for an art, or using art to advocate for something, or using art to advocate for art, any combination of the three"

"For me, arts advocacy, at least on a personal level, is usually more about sharing what I'm doing" 22

"cultivating new audiences, like kids"

"Certainly funding for arts, just awareness of the importance of it, being able to have a place where or organization set up that help give information to people within the arts"

"Well I suppose it would make me think of artists standing up for each other, and supporting each other. But I say that, not exactly knowing what I mean by that."

To summarize, a couple of subjects thought arts advocacy might mean using the arts to advocate for another issue, while several identified it as dealing with funding, awareness, or arts programming in schools. Others had a more grassroots understanding, and believed that things they have done in their own life functioned as arts advocacy, such as teaching and inspiring young students, or simply talking to those who might be "anti-art" and trying to find common ground. CHAPTERS

CONCLUSIONS

Professional performers face a variety of challenges, in pursuing a successful career on stage. While degree programs prepare students to master their craft, they tend to ignore practical aspects with regards to basic needs. Coupled with a professional life that affects perceptions of power and community, most artists believe that the only way to better their circumstances rest in simply working harder and more.

One study examined the relationship between arts policy and artists in Flanders

(Schramme & Segers, 2008), and "[their] findings confirm the internationally noticed paradox: the more the arts have been embedded within organizational and management structures, the more the situation of individual artists has become more vulnerable". If arts advocacy fails to address the needs of individual artists and artists are disconnected from existing advocacy efforts, then the arts sector needs a new practice of advocacy on a grassroots level. Understanding how artists perceive their own communities matters because if artists believe that their needs and concerns belong to them alone, then the call to advocacy seems like a selfish one. But if, as a community, artists understand that others share those needs and concerns, then the call to action becomes one of belonging and responsibility.

23 24

The purpose of this study was to examine existing thoughts on community and arts advocacy to set the foundation for a grassroots advocacy strategy for the arts sector.

In understanding community, we can better engage the artists in those communities to communicate with each other and identify their common needs. In understanding perceptions of advocacy, we get an idea of whether working performers believe themselves have the ability to advocate themselves, and what that means for them. If artists believe "advocacy" exists as something they do not associate with, then we can identify ways to advocate which they can take ownership of. Ultimately, this study will help to empower artists to effectively advocate for themselves. The two main aspects I address involve how to overcome obstacles to grassroots advocacy and how to look at advocacy not as a specific action, but as a lens through which to contextualize actions.

Four Major Conclusions

I made four major conclusions from this study. The first conclusion is that working performers lack professional training and support in terms of basic needs, particularly with issues such as taxes and health insurance, and most professionals end up teaching themselves as they go along. The second conclusion is that the work-lifestyle presents challenges to self-advocacy, anywhere from the incredible demand on time, to the possibility that performing reinforces certain power dynamics. The third conclusion is that a performing arts career leaves performers with the understanding of community establishing itself on an intimate level, or existing for periods of time. The final conclusion is that the average working performer is disconnected from current arts 25

advocacy efforts.

The first conclusion is that working performers receive little information with regards to practical needs and concerns in the sector. One example is taxes, particularly issues related to working as an independent contractor and owing money because of a self-employment tax. More often than not, artists learned about the business of their art by word of mouth, sometimes by a family member in performing, a friend, or other colleague. Artists need a more consistent and efficient way to learn about the business of their craft.

The second conclusion is that a working performer's work-lifestyle is particularly challenging. Numerous subjects, relying on more than one job in order to perform, have difficulty maintaining a social life or merely relaxing after a day at the office, and struggle to pursue their passion, much less have the time to advocate for their passion. In addition to that, the nature of auditioning, rehearsing, and performing condition artists with a do-it-yourself mentality when work does not take care of their needs. This might even contribute to a performer's perceived lack of control over their own circumstances and, in one example, might hesitate to speak up about something like pay, because there are others who would willingly do the same job for the same amount, if not less.

The third conclusion is that understanding how artists define their communities is an important step to mobilizing individuals on a grassroots level. Because of the variety of micro-communities that exist, current arts advocacy efforts might attempt to cover issues too broad for artists to associate with. If arts advocates start dialogues within the smaller communities working performers identify with, an in-depth discussion of needs, 26

both broad and specific, would provide a more accurate map for a general arts advocacy platform, but also discipline-specific platforms. The main importance with community lies in artists realizing that they are not alone with the difficulties they face, and that collective action can address them.

The fourth conclusion is that current arts advocacy efforts do not engage non administrative level artists. Despite subjects' strong understandings of both community and advocacy, the power to change circumstances as a group did not translate into definitions of arts advocacy. At the same time, those artists who believe that they did what they could, are just the kind of on-the-ground advocates that arts advocacy could benefit from, especially if every artist was mobilized and empowered. The main challenge lies in getting artists to realize that they already advocate for the arts, in their own way.

Reflections

This study has taken me on an interesting journey. The initial iteration of my major research questions manifested itself as wondering, "how artists view their roles as arts advocates". I realized that this presented a question that prescribed the outcome, rather than objectively examining the current state of artists' relationship to arts advocacy. To even address that question, I realized I needed to understand how artists viewed themselves and their community, and what they believed about arts advocacy.

In a conversation with one performing friend of mine, he commented that he felt arts organizations do not help develop a sense of community. Something they could do to address this might include giving an artist discount for tickets, something I am only 27

aware Dance Place provides. Another artist colleague, felt that as much as educational programs taught about the art, they did not teach one what one has to do, in order to do the art. These conversations happened long before I even started doing the interviews, and certainly helped guide the issues that I wanted to address.

The most disheartening observation became clear when someone observed that although there are resources for working artists, it does not help when those artists are unaware of those resources to begin with. The issue becomes the fact that artists have the ability to advocate, but unfortunately they do not know what basic needs they lack, and therefore do not realize that they could and should advocate for those. One example highlighted the way countries other than the United States of America support their artists, and that means of support exist for artists to perform full-time. But because local performers do not know other ways of living an artistic life, those conversations fail to take place and working performers do not demand what they deserve. Another issue one colleague brought up relates to the concern that even if artists speak up, until the public acknowledges the performing arts as a viable career choice, then support on any level will never fulfill the basic needs of artists.

Arts advocacy has room for artist advocacy, to a point. Part of the reason that art and artist advocacy currently rest more or less in the same boat, is because the extrinsic argument that is currently all the rage, that the arts equals jobs, makes them codependent on each other. But the argument for the intrinsic value and need for art, and then arguments for making sure that artists can make a living are, ultimately, two different ends. They are still related, to some extent, but arts advocacy has now become about how 28

organizations and policy support the art, whereas artist advocacy will ultimately simply address policy to make sure that any organizations, arts or not, support the artists adequately. Put another way, one supports the production and presentation of art, whereas the other supports the artist. This is where the arts sector needs to realize that we can only go so far together, as different types of artists have different needs, depending on the medium of their craft, the space or the time needed to make work.

In facilitating the means for these conversations to happen, artist advocacy will contribute to an overall sense and understanding of community. Community, in turn, will energize and focus arts advocacy efforts on a grassroots level. If we need to mobilize a grassroots movement of artist advocates, then we ought to understand exactly how they think of and identify with community. As long as artists believe their career is their own responsibility, they will continue to act alone, without addressing the larger, systemic issues that perpetuate conditions which do not support gainful employment in the performing arts. But when performers realize that their arts community has a responsibility to provide the support they deserve, when they realize that others in their community share the same struggle in meeting basic needs, then artists will act and advocate together.

Recommendations for Further Study

Based on the results of this study, there are several recommendations for future research. The first is to widen the pool of subjects to have an appropriate distribution of various factors, including sex, ethnicity, but particularly age. In order to see if definitions of arts advocacy might change from generation to generation, an appropriate spread of 29

age is needed. Examine the career paths of professional performers as they relate to education and training. It would be interesting to see how much degrees actually contribute to the success of working performers, whether a direct correlation exists or not. This study focused on performers on stage, but a future study should include theatre technicians and designers. Finally, this study focused on the performing arts, but a future study could examine visual artists as well, and how their professional life affects their

CIVIC one. APPENDIX A

IRB APPROVAL

~~ AMERICAN UNIVERSITY W A S H N G 0 N 0 c

lNSTJTU'J'IONAL REVJEW BOA!{!)

Exempt App1·oval Initial

Date: March II, 2010

Nathaniel Russ J1·.

Re: lRB Exemption Determination Protocol #: I 0060 Title: What Do Working Performers in the Washington, DC Area Know ...

Approval date: March 11,2010

Dear Mr. Russ:

On 3/11/2010 the above-mentioned protocol was reviewed determined that this research meets the criteria for exemption. You may now begin the research.

Any proposed changes to the protocol that could potentially change the exemption status, must be submitted to the IRB for review and approval prior to implementation, unless such a change is necessary to avoid immediate harm to subjects.

Any unanticipated problems that involve risks to subjects or others must be reported to the IRB in accordance with (insert institution) policies and procedures.

If you have any questions regarding this approval, please contact the IRB office at 202-885-3447

Sincerely, 1:1~-~0-·~-·- Matt Z mbr ski IRB Cd r inator

0F~ICF OF THE PROVOST

4400 MASSACIIUSETTS AVENIJE, NW WASHIM;TON, OC 200J6-H066 202-8HS-3440 FAX: 202-885-3453

30 APPENDIXB

CONSENTS OF PARTICIPATION

WHAT DO WORKING PERFORMERS IN THE WASHINGTON, DC AREA KNOW: DESCRlBING, NOT PRESCRlBING, PRACTICAL MEANINGS OF ARTS ADVOCACY & COMMUNITY

Consent to Participate in Research

Identification of Investigators & Purpose of Study You are being asked to participate in a research study conducted by Nathaniel Russ, Jr. from American University. The purpose of this study is to learn about the intersection of being a working performer in the Washington, DC area and defining Arts Advocacy and Community. This study will contribute to the student's c<>mpletion of his master's thesis.

Research Procedures Should you decide to participate in this research study, you will be asked to sib'll this consent form once all your questions have been answered to your satisfaction. This study consists of an interview/survey that will be administered to individual participants in your live/work space. You will be asked to provide answers to a series of questions related to your education, training and work lifestyle, as they relate to being a working performer, as well as your beliefs and understanding of Arts Advocacy & Community. The researcher will audiotape the interview

Time Required & Compensation Participation in this study will require no more than 3 hours of your time. Time is allotted for up to two interviews, which will last between 60-90 minutes each. You will not receive compensation for your time.

Risks The investigator does not perceive more than minimal risks from your involvement in this study. You are free to refuse discussing any personal matters that cause you discomfort or that you feel is an invasion of your privacy.

Benefits Potential benefits from participation in this study include seeing if there are any trends between education, training and discipline, and how performers perceive advocacy and community, we might gain insight into the civic values of working performers, especially as they relate to being an advocate for their profession, their field, and ultimately themselves. I believe that this study will shed light that while education and training give performers the tools tor a successful professional life, those two factors in conjunction with the work-lifestyle of performing professionally can have secondary effects on the social and civic lives of students after they complete their studies.

Confidentiality The results of this research will be presented as part of the master's thesis oral presentation. The researcher intends to use your name, education, training, work experience, etc. in his thesis and other future publications unless you request anonymity. In this case, the researcher retains the right to use and publish non-identifiable data. Should you request anonymity, the researcher will code the results of this study in such a way that the respondent's identity is not attached to the final form of this study. While individual responses are confidential, aggregate data will be presented representing averages or generalizations about the responses as a whole. All data will be stored in a secure location accessible only to the researcher. Upon completion of the study, all information that matches up individual respondents with their answers, including audio tapes, will be destroyed.

31 32

WHAT DO WORKING PERFORMERS IN THE WASHINGTON, DC AREA KNOW: DESCRIBING, NOT PRESCRIBING, PRACTICAL MEANINGS OF ARTS ADVOCACY & COMMUNITY Participation & Withdrawal Your participation is entirely voluntary. You are free to choose not to participate. Should you choose to participate, you can withdraw at any time without consequences of any kind. You may also refuse to answer any individual question without consequences.

Questions about the Study If you have questions or concerns during the time of your participation in this study, or after its completion or you would like to receive a copy of the final aggregate results of this study, please contact:

Nathaniel Russ, Jr. Dr. Antonio C. Cuyler, Ph.D Department of Performing Arts Department of Performing Arts American University American University 202.215.9118 202.885.3976 nr446 7a li student.american.edu cu,·Ier li america11~~\!

Questions about Your Rights as a Research Subject Dr. David Haaga Matt Zembrzuski Chair, Institutional Review Board IRB Coordinator American University American University (202)885-1718 (202)885-3447 dhaal!.a <1 american ..:du irb i! american.edq

.,tit give consent to be audio taped during my interview. AX (initials)

'(Z;IJ give consent to have my name and other identifiable information used in this research study.

'4/7 c. (initials)

Name of Participant (Printed)

52{: ;r:,,c~~~ ():...-:I :; / lr./ r; Date '7/IY lP bate 33

Questions about the Study If you have questions or concerns during the time of your participation in this study, or atler its completion or you would like to receive a copy of the final aggregate results of this study, please contact:

Giving of Consent I have read this consent form and I understand what is being requested of me as a participant in this study. I freely consent to participate. I have been given satisfactory answers to my questions. The investigator provided me with a copy of this form. I certifY that I am at least 18 years of age. ~give consent to be audio taped during my interview. _ tb (initials) izijgive consent to have my name and other identifiable information used in tbis research study.

( ~(initials)

Ddte I 5 ;!t/((; bate 34

Questions about Your Rights as a Research Subject Dr. David Haaga Matt Zembrzuski Chair, Institutional Review Board IRB Coordinator American University American University (202)885-1718 (202)885-3447

Giving of Consent I have read this consent forn1 and I understand what is being requested of me as a participant in this study. I freely consent to participate. I have been given satisfactory answers to my questions. The investigator provided me with a copy of this form. I certifY that I am at least 18 years of age.

fiJ I give consent to be audio taped during my interview.

[J I give consent to have my name and other identifiable information used in this research study. f ,!" ·, ~ (initials)

Name of Participant (Printed) ,1 ,~ ~ ·, /. ~·\I~--·\ \_ Name of Participant (Signed) Date

r:; _I I ,: // IF\ Name of Researcher (Signed) Date 35

WHAT DO WORKING PERFORMERS IN THE WASHINGTON, DC AREA KNOW: DESCRIBING, NOT PRESCRIBING, PRACllCAL MEANINGS OF ARTS ADVOCACY & COMMUNITY Participation & Withdrawal Your participation is entirely voluntary. You are free to choose not to participate. Should you choose to participate, you can withdraw at any time without consequences of any kind. You may also refuse to answer any individual question without consequences.

Questions about the Study If you have questions or concerns during the time of your participation in this study, or after its completion or you would like to receive a copy of the fmal aggregate results of this study, please contact:

.- ' ~ D I ~ive consent to be audio taped during my interview. --='-'_(initials)

[3 I give consent to have my name and other identifiable information used in this research study.

(initials)

Name of Participant (Printed) <·!~(~~-- Date 711711{ Date 36

WHAT DO WORKING PERFORMERS JN THE WASHINGTON, DC AREA KNOW: DESCRIBING, NOT PRESCRIBING, PRACTICAL MEANINGS OF ARTS ADVOCACY & COMMUNITY Participation & Withdrawal Your participation is entirely voluntary. You are free to choose not to participate. Should you choose to participate, you can withdraw at any time without consequences of any kind. You may also refuse to answer any individual question without consequences.

Giving of Consent I have read this consent form and I understand what is being requested of me as a participant in this study. I freely consent to participate. I have been given satisfactory answers to my questions. The investigator provided me with a copy of this form. I certifY that I am at least 18 years of age. 6I give consent to be audio taped during my interview. --+4- (initials) ~I give consent to have my name and other identifiable information used in this research study. ~ (initials)

s /;;'{ I 1r..: Date I !Y:-:) 1//P Date 37

Questions about the Study lfyou have questions or concerns during the time of your participation in this study, or after its completion or you would like to receive a copy of the final aggregate results of this study, please contact:

Nathaniel Russ, Jr. Dr. Antonio C. Cuyler, Ph.D Department of Performing Arts Department of Performing Arts American University American University 202.215.9118 202.885.3976 m:!:'l6 7a'il_hl.\!_Qyl1t.amcrican ..:du gnler'damerican.et.lu

Questions about Your Rights as a Research Subject Dr. David Haaga Matt Zembrzuski Chair, Institutional Review Board IRB Coordinator American University American University (202)885-1718 (202)885-3447

!Zf{give consent to be audio taped during my interview. _ ~(initials) g{give consent to have my name and other identifiable information used in this research study. ~(initials)

Name of Participant(Printed)

7/ d-1/!tJ Date ' 38

WHAT DO WORKING PERFORMERS IN THEWASHINGTON, DC AREA KNOW: DESCRIBING, NOT PRESCRIBING, PRACTICAL MEANINGS OF ARTS ADVOCACY & COMMUNITY Participation & Withdrawal Your participation is entirely voluntary_ You are free to choose not to participate. Should you choose to participate, you can withdraw at any time without consequences of any kind. You may also refuse to answer any individual question without consequences.

Giving of Consent I have read this consent form and I understand what is being requested of me as a participant in this study_ I freely consent to participate. I have been given satisfactory answers to my questions. The investigator provided me with a copy of this form. I certifY that I am at least 18 years 'age. ~~ve consent to be audio taped during my interview. _ ¥(initials)

Mive consent to have my name and other identifiable information used in this research study . .9-- (initials)

D?J-~o e Z/.)¥/P Date 39

Questions about tbe Study If you have questions or concerns during the time of your participation in this study, or after its completion or you would like to receive a copy of the final aggregate results of this study, please contact:

Giving of Consent I have read this consent torm and I understand what is being requested of me as a participant in this study. I freely consent to participate. I have been given satisfactory answers to my questions. The investigator provided me with a copy of this form. I certify that I am at least 18 years of age. _/ -(21' ~I give consent to be audio taped during my interview. _ l t' (initials)

~ give consent to have my name and other identifiable information used in this research study.

(initials)

Name of Participant (Printed) ~~ ,. "\ . tr"' '..J../-1,"'---. ,I.,--/"' .~~I ':,_, Date //]C;/IC Name of Researcher (Sigqed} - Date APPENDIXC

INTERVIEW PROTOCOL

Questions

1. What age/grade did you get involved with the performing arts?

2. If you went to college, what did you get your degree(s) in?

3. What training have you had outside a college/university setting?

4. What is your occupation?

5. What is your typical work schedule like?

6. What do you do in your free time?

7. As a professional artist, are your concerns/needs met?

8. If not, how do you take care of or get support for those concerns/needs?

9. What is your definition of community?

10. How would you defme your community/communities?

11. What is your definition of advocacy?

12. How would you define arts advocacy?

40 APPENDIXD

INTERVIEWS

Subject 1

JR Russ: Were you involved with the performing arts before finishing high school?

Subject 1: Yes, throughout high school and, honestly, throughout elementary school; just chorale stuff until I reached high school when I started doing theatre.

Russ: So was it mostly ensemble work?

1: Yeah, it was mostly ensemble work. Like I applied to conservatory, was wait listed, so I decided not to go that route. Instead I got my business degree. Choices.

Russ: So, let's go ahead and, I guess, jump ahead to university or college; so where did you go?

1: My first year I went to Texas A&M studying business, then transferred to Howard University and finished my business degree. In that period, I was performing outside of school. I think, maybe my second year at Howard I auditioned for Washington Opera and got into their first production of Porgy & Bess and kind of started doing more competitions and getting into more musical theatre stuff.

Russ: So how did you, I guess when you got to college, you didn't really think of performing as a viable track for a profession.

1: Well, not so much, but I think it was more my parents and something that I needed to get done. I actually doubled my course load, so I could finish and then concentrate on doing theatre and stuff outside of business. And I actually did give myself two years time to make sure that I could support myself being an actor and if not, I would go and use my business degree. So far it's been working out.

Russ: So by support yourself being an actor, you mean doing mostly professional jobs acting ...

1: Right, and getting paid, whether it be just cantoring at a church or being a teaching artist or actually performing on a stage somewhere.

41 42

Russ: So really diversifying-

1 : Right, as much as possible.

Russ: Neat. And did you feel like that was something you figured out on your own, or how did you ...

1: As far as?

Russ: Going from college to that kind of working model. Like did you have a mentor who was like, this is what you need to do?

1 : No, it was kind of what I needed to do in order to make sure that I paid my bills on time. But I thought as long as I focused on something within the arts, I would hone the craft more. That's such a term. Because I didn't go to school necessarily for theatre or what I was particularly doing, like I had training vocally and a few intensives for theatre stuff, but not spending three, four years in a classroom learning Misner.

Russ: I guess I'll go back to that a little bit, but you had mentioned a number of different jobs, at the same time, I'm assuming. If you were to describe a typical, and I'm sure there are lots of typical work weeks, what would your typical one be like, as far as working hours.

1: Usually I'm here at the pool coaching in the morning from five to seven. Then, ifl feel like it, I'll stay at the pool and manage the pool until about noon, then go home and take a nap. And hopefully I'm rehearsals for something that is going on during the day. During school, like when I was still in school, I could come to the pool until about seven and coach, then I would go to my classes. And most of my classes were probably done at about six, seven o'clock on a good day. Then once I started opera stuff, they lucky enough had rehearsals in the evening. So I would leave school and then go to rehearsal at seven, leave there at about ten and go home, do homework and go to sleep, and prepare to maybe coach the next morning. That's about it.

Russ: So even after school, that working all day and then working all night, and then weekends?

1: Weekends, I don't coach on weekends, I actually cantor on Sundays, or I was cantoring on Sundays throughout college, and maybe the first year, year and a half of being out of school. But then my schedule picked up as far as actual performing opportunities, so I couldn't go to church and then go to a matinee performance. So that went away. Doing oratorio concerts every now and then, or weddings, or just random stuff that would put gas in my tank. Choices. But, again, it was stuff that promoted what I was doing, versus going to an office and sitting at a desk. Even though my degree, I think is creative and I would have fun doing it, I don't think it would necessarily promote what 43

I was trying to do.

Russ: Do you feel like any aspect of your business degree might have actually helped?

1: What? Yes!

Russ: Especially with regards to seeing other performers that might not handle the business part of-

1: Totally. As far as just marketing yourself as an actor or product, I find that I have a much easier time getting hired for things versus another person, because they don't follow through after the initial audition. And yeah, he's got talent or whatever, but I think I run a decent hustle, to say the least. I fmd a business degree definitely helps as far as being focused and actually making myself a product, like, "you want to hire me because ... "

Russ: And do you feel like that's something that most programs in higher education don't really, like you mentioned the training as far as Misner is all well and good but-

1: I feel that a lot of conservatories and schools in higher education really don't teach the business aspect of theatre, like it is a business and people want money. I don't think they really teach how to market yourself. I know from dealing with opera people, I think they have a better control of the business aspect of what it is to be an artist. I mean its great to be an artist and give up yourself, but if nobody besides your grandma is seeing you perform or you don't have as many opportunities as you could, its really not worth it, the time and energy that you put into creating your artistry, if its not shared with more than five people.

Russ: So, as far as part of that, its like you're kind of being an advocate for yourself but in doing so do you feel like sometimes you become an advocate for the art, like do you ever get into conversations with people where they're like, "why are you an artist?" and you're like, well ...

1: [laughs] I have that conversation with my parents all the time. [laughs] Yeah ... advocating for the art.

Russ: Or just even, okay, so just the way you said it, "advocating", is there, when you think of advocating, what comes to your mind first?

1: Honestly, I feel that there is a need for ... self-expression. I mean, that's what art is, and ... geez. We're just friends talking, JR, what's the problem? I don't know. "Advocate".

Russ: Do you find yourself in situations where you are educating people and dealing with misperceptions about what it is to be an artist? Especially with what you said, for the 44

most part everything you do has something to do with the arts, do you ever get people that are like, "Oh wait, what do you do for a real job?"

1: Right, I dealt with .. .I really, honestly, since I surround myself with people who are in the business, it's not so much of a hassle. But when I talk to, like, my family, that are like, "so, that's great that you sing and that you like to do shows ... so, what's your real job?" they don't really understand that it is a viable source of income, as long as you juggle everything well enough. I know for a while my parents, especially my mother, was like, "so when're you going to use that degree that we paid for?" Urn, and just until recently, she saw a photo, or someone at her job saw a photo of me in the Washington Post and she was like, "Oh, you're doing stuff... yeah, the Kennedy Center." Like, yeah, they pay a decent contract and I actually can, like, make sure my lights are still on. But it's not only just playing at houses like the Kennedy Center, where you know your paycheck will be a good paycheck, it's actually going to the smaller theatres and doing work that you actually enjoy doing. I'll squirrel away the Kennedy Center contract check, in order to do something that I want to do with a smaller company. And that, since, I don't... what was the question?

Russ: Well, it seems like what you were just talking about is its own form of advocacy, but it seemed like the way you perceive the term "advocating", there's like this whole other, kind of.. .I mean, I'm gonna probably put words in your mouth-

1 : That's fine. I' 11 say if it's right.

Russ: Okay. Kind of like, when you typically hear about people advocating, you think of people going up in groups on a day, and going to Capitol Hill, and that's advocating, that's going, you know ... but, I mean any situation where you're educating something about a cause or sector, about something you do, something you love, I mean, that's it's own form of advocacy.

1: Sure

Russ: I mean, like you said, do you feel like their perceptions over time -

1: I generally feel that, over time, perceptions have changed with the people that I immediately come in contact with.

Russ: Cool, I'm gonnajump around a bit. There was something you had said about making sure the lights were on, or making sure you could pay your bills. Do you feel like, that there are obviously needs that you have as a working artist, that sometimes it's rough to meet, like for example, health insurance.

1: Luckily enough for me, coming out of college, I was already part of the AGMA union, from doing the Opera stuff. So their healthcare is actually very good, and I actually, 45

basically get reimbursed for everything that I pay for through their union, as long as I work and put money towards my copay or whatever, they pay for everything. Urn, yeah, I actually have a lot of money with them, because I rarely go to the doctor's besides a regular check-up or something. So there's a lot of money in there.

Russ: Do you feel like you're more aware ofhealthcare issues which might affect artists because of that, or do you feel like you've actually not...

1: The affects on other artists ... hmm... Um.. .I think that I have heard the horror stories from other friends about how horrible healthcare is. From my understanding, as I looked over the books for Equity, their healthcare isn't the best, it's kind of antiquated. Just hearing stories from other people, it's kind oflike, "oh, I'm really, like, fortunate to have ... be part of the union that I am part of'. But I really have not gone outside of self, and being, like, oh that's really sucky for you that your union sucks; my union is good. Urn-

Russ: And those are just those people that happen to be part of a union.

1: Right, exactly. But I just kind of... yeah, I know, again, coming from the business aspect of just, like, once you get out of school and you're no longer a dependent on your parents, it's kind of rough waters. Do I get health insurance, or do I go ahead and pay for my car, or whatever I need to make sure I get to work and pay these other bills. Um.. .I don't know. Yeah, I really, besides myself, I haven't thought outside of, "so I wonder if JR has enough money to take care of himself or his braces."

Russ: Well you know, if we hung out and got to talking ...

1: Whatever.

Russ: No, no. I mean when we, when we do. Urn, but speaking of which, so you had mentioned surrounding yourself with other artists, in your free time, when you do have free time-

1: Right, that's-exactly, free time. Urn. I'm kind of, I'm, honestly, I'm kind of... withdrawing from other people. There's a difference between a performer and an artist.

Russ: Okay.

1: Yeah, I find that a lot of performers are very self-indulgent people who I don't particularly care being around. Wherein an artist is someone that thinks outside of themself, and ... actually giving something to the community as well to themselves. Does that make any kind of sense at all? 46

Russ: Yeah, no, absolutely. Urn, so when you do have free time to hang out, do you find yourself mostly hanging out with, whether performers or artists-

1: Of course, yeah .. .it's other people in the business.

Russ: Okay. And not so much out of it.

1: Not anymore.

Russ: Not anymore?

1: Urn, like, throughout college and once I got out of college I was definitely still hanging out with college friends, but their schedules are so different. Yeah, the schedules just, plainly, are different. Like-

Russ: As far as they have a regular-

1: Right, they have a regular nine to five, and aren't hanging out besides, like, a Saturday. Right. Urn, and, honestly, the relationship with my family is vastly different. Like, I'm the youngest offour, so I don't see my brothers and sisters that often anymore. Like, just on mother's day, this is prime example, mother's day, my brother invited over my mom, of course, and my sisters. And my sister called and was, like, "are you coming to Teddy's?" And I was, like, "no, he didn't call me." And, I mean, those are instances wherein, like, they plan things and then, you know, over time, after me being, like, "no I can't go because I have blah blah blah", they, you know, just stop calling to be, like, yeah you can't come anyway. So, instances like that it's kind of just like, oh, I'm losing out on a lot, you know. Um... so, relationships definitely, like .. .it's a lonely business, it can be, it really can be. Um... but again, I think it's something that you have to get used to and kind of embrace, really. Urn, yeah... that's how I feel about that.

Russ: So when you do hang out with other-

1: Sorry, I have not answered that question at all.

Russ: No, you did. You did. Urn, when you do hang out with other people, do you normally hang out - this might be a little personal, uh - do you tend to hang out in a large group, like you try to see a lot of people you haven't seen in a while, or do you try to hang out with one or two people in smaller groups? Or is there a tendency-

1: Not really, usually, I'm like an individual kind of person, so more than likely, it's a small group of people.

Russ: Small being- 47

1: Like, two or three people at the most.

Russ: Urn, you had mentioned- sorry, I'm jumping around a little- uh, community. So how do you define community, in general?

1: These philosophical questions. Urn, community. Community encompasses everyone. Urn ...

Russ: Like, communities share what in common?

1: What do communities share in common, JR. .. um-

Russ: And there's no right answer.

1: There's no right answer to this.

Russ: So, just describe your own personal views on community, that's really what I'm asking. Not a text-book definition.

1: Choices. Community, I don't know. I don't know, when I think of community, I just think of a group ofpeople, that, honestly, in a great world, look out for each other. I don't know, community .. .! don't know.

Russ: That's good, no, that's awesome. So how would you describe your community?

1: Urn, my community.

Russ: Yes. Communities, if not just one.

1: Right, communities. U m .. .I think, honestly, my main community consists of my family. Yeah...

Russ: Other artists?

1: Mmm, right.

Russ: Oh

1: Choices. I have, like, I'm sorry, I grew up in a family wherein we've labeled everything. And there's a huge difference between friend, colleague, and associate. Urn, so I don't, and I'm not a very open person at all, I'm still working on that. It's a choice. Community, that's a part of my life. I honestly, would ... honestly say, my family. And maybe a handful of friends. Of course I still run in the circles of other theatre community, I guess ... but there's a big difference in relationship. 48

Russ: So you kind of have your community by fate, your family-

1: Right.

Russ: And then you have a community of association, like other theatre -

1: Exactly.

Russ: And then your community of choice, which is like a really close circle of friends -

1: Right. Community is, has a lot to do with relationship, I guess.

Russ: Okay. Cool, no, that's a perfect answer.

1: Don't lie to me.

Russ: I'm not. Um... okay, this is kind of jumping again. But say if-you're moving up to New York, soon.

1: Right.

Russ: And say if you had needs as an artist, or even here, actually. If you had certain needs as an artist that you feel like weren't being addressed for whatever reason, how- do you feel like there's someplace, someone, some organization you could go to ... bring this up with. Like, if you had issues with your, with healthcare do you feel, could you go to your Union.

1: Yes.

Russ: Okay. So that would be one example.

1: I feel that.. .I'm a kind of do it yourself kind of person, so, yeah. If I couldn't do it by myself, I would defmitely seek out help somewhere else. Does that answer your question?

Russ: Yeah, no, it does. Again, all of this is very descriptive, it's not like there's a right answer I'm looking for. 'cause everyone's going to have different models for how they address their various-

1: I'm trying to be as detailed as possible. Does that make?

Russ: Yeah. 49

1: Do you need more?

Russ: No.

1: Okay.

Russ: 'Cause I guess, especially as an artist with certain needs, whether it be, in this case, health insura-health care, affordable housing, or just even regular work, um .. .I guess, do you feel like there are channels with which those can be addressed, any organizations or associations you know of? 'Cause you know DC's full of them, like, both locally and nationally, Americans for the Arts being one.

1: I know that here, in DC and in New York there are artist housing. Urn, but !...right. Urn, wow, I keep talking about my family. Urn, I think with my family, it's definitely a network that I would go to immediately if I had any questions or any kind of problems. Any arts organization, I would go to my union versus .. .! don't, I don't know.

Russ: I guess, here's a personal issue, which might not be an issue with some of the work you've done, but sometimes you know, you get work for theatres, and you look at your paycheck, and you're like, "it's a good thing I love doing this".

1: Right.

Russ: Do you feel like, I mean, 'cause, you know, in other places they have minimum wage requirements, things like that, certain regulations of the trade which, theatre, the arts-

1: Not so much.

Russ: Right.

1: I, again ... this is with me juggling three different jobs, um ... and trying to make sure that there is an outlet, or they're all somewhat involved in the arts, so I have that fulfillment of like, "yay, I'm doing this." Meanwhile, I am getting a minimum wage check that will pay for something. So if I get enough of those checks from several different places, I feel, okay, I can make my bills for the month. I'll be at that, like, I don't feel that I necessarily struggle as far fmancially .. .I don't, yeah, I don't think I have ever.. .I don't think I have ever really struggled financially. I've looked at some paychecks and been like, "what the -".Urn, mmm... choices.

Russ: Well, when those things I have happened, do you feel like there'd be a way for either you to communicate and get together with either other artists or, like I said, an organization to actually, like, basically enact some change? 50

1: That would be great. I don't know of any. Um.. .I know that there- Skidmore just started a talent agency here, to represent people in order to fight for wage increase and, basically, to have Washington area artists on more stage. I feel the thought of that is ...

Russ: Admirable?

1 : Yeah. But, again, it's a community wherein... mmm, choices, wherein theatres who have corporate sponsors, I was talking about this the other day, how disgusting it is to know that big theatres have corporate sponsors pay their artists, their actors ... crap, peanuts. And, as an actor, when you approach them to say, ''yeah, this won't be enough for the hours that you want to take of my day, and of my life," it's- no seriously, you're giving away your time and your energy and you're getting paid twelve dollars. It's one thing to be like, "yeah, this is great, this is what I want to do" versus getting the paycheck that's, like, this is what you're worth, and this is what you're talent is worth, this is what you're time is worth. It's kind of a slap in the face when you get that small paycheck that's like, "here you go".

Russ: Well, especially since a lot of them have kind of gone through the same thing, and you'd think-

1: Right! When you first started out you were rink-dink theatre in a warehouse, or a garage.

Russ: Not that you're naming any.

1: No, that's fine. Urn, then you get these great corporate sponsors because your local artists dug in and presented work that was good, that people took interest in, it's like, let's support the arts, and let's give them a bajillion dollar check to finance their next season. Wherein, yeah, it's great that you build up your theatre and the artifice of what you're working in, but still your artist.. .are they not due part of that? That's where I get upset. But the question was if there's an entity here or someplace that I felt that I could turn to-

Russ: Or someone.

1: At this point. I honestly feel that it's-

Russ: Do it yourself or don't.

1: Yeah, a do it yourself kind of thing. And I fell that it's not just, honestly not just here in DC. I feel like it's kind of just a community thing for theatre artists, theatre performers.

Russ: Which is funny because it seems like it's a community that's based on a lack of community, almost. It's a very self-serving, kind oflook out for yourself- 51

1: Yeah-

Russ: I'm sorry, I'm kind of-

1: No, it definitely is, and that's, yeah... choices, I could say a lot, but I'm not going to. Hmm, yeah, it definitely is a self-serving thing, which it's honestly not supposed to be at all, that's the whole ... point of...performing, that's not what it's supposed to be, it's not necessarily for yourself.

Russ: Do you think, it seems that on one hand it's an institutional thing, but do you think it might be a generational thing too? Do you think-

1: No, it's definitely an institutional thing, and I think that people, over the course of time, are just like, "yeah, this is the way it is and, let's just deal with it." And I think that, honestly, I think ... hopefully, I feel, that just talking with friends, that it's something that people are looking at, or actors are looking at and saying this is unacceptable. So I think there will be a time wherein it will change, but as of now I don't feel that it's ... any specific person or place that one can go to, to effect that besides you, personally, directly going and fighting for what you feel.

Russ: Do you feel like, you, personally, that might have an - hypotheticals might be the wrong way to go with this, but- if you had been a part of... Well, actually, let me back up a little bit more. So, even though you went to school for business, you did start training at some point.

1: Right.

Russ: And, were there private lessons that you'd go to a person-

1: Throughout high school I studied privately. Urn ...

Russ: And this was in... where were you in high school, again?

1: Eleanor Roosevelt, in Greenbelt, which was a science and tech school. But their arts department was amazing. They had, like, Dr. Baker who was a phenomenal chorale teacher and their whole arts department was amazing. They had three symphony orchestras, and bands galore.

Russ: Do they still have that kind of program?

1: I don't think so. Most of those teachers have left the school, so I.. .I'm not sure how the program is actually running now, but...as far as maybe 2004, 2005, it was still a big thing there. Urn, the drama department was really solid, even though I really didn't do anything 52

besides the musical theatre, because I was in books. So throughout high school I studied privately outside of school. Urn..

Russ: And then in University?

1: And then in University I didn't start back to studying until my second year, again privately.

Russ: But privately within the school, or privately-

1: No, outside the school. And that was a guy that just lived down the street and had a studio down the street from the school, so when I wasn't doing anything, I would go and coach with him. And he's the one that got me into the opera, or at least auditioning for the opera company. And in between then, I did, I think my first intensive was with Signature, their Overtures thing at the Kennedy Center. That following year, I did Manhattan School of Music's big musical theatre program, that was like a three-week intensive with Paul Gemignani and Paul Ford and Austin Pendleton, wherein we focused on character stuff. It was pretty diverse, but we would dance in the morning, tapping, and ballet, and just stuff, waking up in the morning to dance. And the rest of the day would be spent on acting and singing, so it was a lot. And that, maybe two days after that program was done, I did a program with the New York Opera studio, and studied with coaches from the Metropolitan Opera. So I did a musical theatre intensive and then an opera intensive. Just last year, I did Spoleto, which is in Italy, this huge Opera program. Urn, yeah, those were my intensives, but, honestly, I feel my education has been in doing, and the opportunities I've had to perform.

Russ: Well, it's funny because it seems like, and we were just talking about how self serving this community can seem to be, but at the same time there are all these times and moments where people come together and people kind of hand down -

1: Their knowledge -

Russ: Right, their training to a point, but they don't talk about the other part of, the finding work, getting paid -

1: Right, again, I would say in the musical theatre programs, not discussed at all. Like, honestly, I think maybe in the New York program, at Manhattan school, they might've discussed the attributes of networking, and making sure you stay in contact with people. But, it was at the opera studios, that it was like, this is how you go about ... um, finding auditions and possibly finding a manager or an agent that will send you on auditions. This is what you need to prepare and how you should be prepared for the business aspect of what you're doing. Like, you, personally, need to be an artist and know your craft, but you also need to be business-minded and make sure that you are working, and that you are sharing what you have, versus just coaching at some odd studio for yourself. Urn, so I 53

think opera-land definitely is about the business aspect of it, which is why we probably get paid more, I'm joking.

Russ: No, but there's some truth there.

1: There's a substantial difference in the paycheck I get with the opera that .. yeah.

Russ: Something I just realized, I mean we've been talking about the business part, and people talk about as "the business", but something I was realizing, looking at my own research, no one really told me about the non-profit part of it. Not non-profit as far as not making money, but the non-profit as far as this mission, this good that you're providing-

1: Right, of what your purpose is.

Russ: Right.

1 : Yeah, again -

Russ: Care to comment?

1: Self-seeking. Urn, because I feel that in school it's about getting the job. They teach you how to audition, and the skill's that you'll need, but not necessarily ... not necessarily promoting what the art is and the purpose of art within your community. Um... what was your question?

Russ: Well I was going to throw something out there for you, see what you might think. And, again, I'm not sure if this is prescribing too much and it's not hypothetical, but it seems like by the time we finish training, we know how to do, but we don't really know why, people tend to settle for whatever they can get. But, especially, and I have this whole other lens from this arts management program now, looking at non-profits, and you might, too, from the business side of things, I'm not sure how much the business program addressed non-profit stuff, if at all ...

1: Yes.

Russ: But, most theatres have a mission, and if you have artists that don't know just how to do, but they also know why they want to do it, and they actually look for work that fulfilled their own lives, if you have smarter artists doing smarter work, and actually, like .. .I don't know, go with it, what're you thinking?

1: Urn, right .. .I'm not sure necessarily that certain theatres or the people that head them are looking past the business aspect of staying open next season, or some of them staying open for the next show, and financing what their mission is. I think ... hmm .. .I feel that over time, some theatres have lost track of what their mission is, in serving, 54

service ... service. Yeah.

Russ: I guess it's seeming more like a chicken and an egg thing, as I'm thinking about it, cause should the artist be responsible for-

1: It's always, it always falls back on the artist, I feel. Were you about to say if, is it the artist or the theatre?

Russ: Right.

1: Urn, yeah.

Russ: To demand more, to know more.

1 : Exactly, it's always the artist. I feel that over time, sure, the business aspect of cost of living go up, and ...just the entertainment of, "sure I can watch Hamlet on TV versus going to the theatre and sitting through so and so, just recite some lines. Meanwhile I can have a beer in my hand and do whatever, and just watch in on TV, or go to the movies and get in my car and leave," you know. So I think it's the artist's duty to stay focused on what your personal service is to ... what your contribution is ... to the community, to not just yourself, which I think some people... honestly ... don't know?

Russ: Right, because they didn't learn it. They weren't taught it, they weren't exposed to it.

1: Right, or... some ofthem don't care. It's, again, that self-serving thing, of, like, "I'm up here on stage and people know my name and this is for me" versus this is not only just for me, but it's for Suzie Q in row F that is having a hard time tonight, and this topic that we're talking about might help her, or.. .I don't know, urn.

Russ: Do you feel like you've done any work recently which has done that?

1: Urn ...

Russ: On any level, I mean, kind of, your cantoring

1 : Yeah, of course. Again.. .! feel that it's the attitude that you go out with on stage. What did I just do, Showboat, for example. I'm not on, I wasn't on stage, you know, singing the nine o'clock or eleven o'clock number, or the spotlight wasn't necessarily on me, but I feel that my actions and reactions promoted the story. And that's the purpose; someone didn't just write this just 'cause they felt like writing it, it's a purpose behind it. And it serves someone, somewhere, so it's your job as an artist to fish through whatever, and find what the purpose is, and do your job. 55

Russ: I'm gonna flip this a bit-

1: Do it-

Russ: So, ultimately -

1: I was about to say something, but I forgot you were taping.

Russ: So, ultimately, it comes to the artist, but as far as the theatres go, and you mentioned that sometimes they get so caught up in the immediacy of some of their financial concerns, do you feel like there's more ... do you feel like there are things they can do to actually, not even produce more shows, but offer more things to compliment the show, to start a discussion, to-

1: Woolly Mammoth Theatre, I love going there. They do new works, or whatever, all of them aren't necessarily good, which.. .! have been, over the course of the few years that I've been going to their shows, I might've gone to see one or two productions that I was just like, "ewww", but I'm not sure how, I can't remember when they implemented this discussion thing that they do, I love going there and talking to the kid sitting next to me about what's happening on stage. They have this, what is it, the fortune cookie thing? I'm like, "yeah, this is what a theatre is", like, we're supposed to discuss what's happening on stage and how whatever just happened made you feel and how it is part of your life or not part of your life or I never thought of it that way, so ... performing, it's supposed to be .. .it should have some kind of impact on you. And it's not just the theatres job to .. .it's great when they're thoughtful enough to say, "sure, this is what we want to give to audiences".

Russ: It's kind ofthe audiences job too.

1: Of course it is, because ... they're the ones paying for the tickets.

Russ: And do you feel like part of that is that we have an audience which is so used to consuming things without -

1: Truth, welcome to the United States of America. I was in Berlin, just before Showboat started in September, and I went to London before that. And that was my first time in London, and they have this like, it was just inundated with theatres and just people on the street doing whatever. Yeah, their theatre scene is kind of ridiculous, so I'm just like, where did they find the audiences that will come and sit in a seat for "I just killed my baby, part 2"or just something crazy, off-the-wall that people actually want to go and see. But in Berlin, that was not the case at all. Whatever you put on stage, in served a purpose, like there's a reason that we're doing this play, and there's a reason that these people are in these seats. My friend Earson is a director and we talked until the wee hours of the morning of how... right, just different, how different the theatre is here versus in Berlin. He lived here for a year and a half as a student, and it's just different, just different. 56

Russ: So it seems like part of the issue might be, it's not that people don't know what the value of the performing arts is, everyone know, the theatres know, the companies know, the audience knows, the actors knows. But for some reason they're not all talking about it together, and somehow we've separated the institution from the artist from the audience, as opposed to ...

1: I'm glad that you just developed all that for yourself. Sure, I wholeheartedly agree. Um.. .I don't...hmm .. .I'm sorry, I lost what the hell I was just thinking about.

Russ: No, it's okay. We were just talking about how different elements were kind of separated and coming together, values, value of performing arts, every knows it but nobody seems to ...

1: I don't think ... complacency, I think is ... a ... not just in the arts, I fmd that people are just settled for a lot of things in life. I know that they, isn't there some 56dage that's just, like, "yeah, a society begins to suffer when the arts begin to fail" or something to that effect. Or you can tell when a society is about to fall apart when the arts begin to disappear. Choices. Yeah, I feel that there is a disconnect.

Russ: Jumping back to advocacy real quick, do you feel that sometimes, as far as letting people know about the arts, whether it's the family or whatever, letting them know your concerns, your needs, going to your union, do you feel like sometimes advocacy for the arts doesn't seem as pertinent when you hear people talking about advocating for human rights or same-sex marriage, or you know no more drilling off the -

1: No, nobody cares.

Russ: About the arts?

1: Comparatively, in comparison, it's, I don't feel it's that high up.

Russ: Do you feel like there's a disconnect, since people know the value of the arts to inform and engage, and to cause, I mean 'cause obviously it's valuable-

1: Do you see my eyebrow, JR Russ? Your recorder doesn't record that, urn, sure, like, no.

Russ: Okay.

1: I don't think that it's part of anyone's train of thought besides, like, a handful of people that are like, "through the arts, whether it be theatre or photography or whatever, just, like, instrument" I don't think people besides the handful of people that are, like, "this can change a person's view on life, their perception of themselves and society as a 57

whole" besides those one or two people that are like ''yes, let's do this, let's promote the arts", nobody's, I think, again, complacency. I think most people's thought is how they're going to survive 'til tomorrow.

Russ: Right. And .. .I mean, do you think, 'cause it seems like such a simple switch on one hand, because to go from people being very, again, self-serving, and in a completely neutral way, just I need to worry about myself, to, and you mentioned Woolly and one thing I love about them and their mission is they specifically, their mission statement addresses how their work can be used to spark a dialogue in the DC community and how it could be relevant to the community of DC, I'm like "of course, they're gonna do good stuff," even if they, you know, if the play might not be whatever, but it's like, they're committed to engagement and serving their community, so they're relevant to anything, any issues that might-

1: Exactly.

Russ: So do you think there's an argument for the arts and even for artists to be like, "listen you might think the arts is just fluff, but we're just as relevant, and we have the power to do things in a way that reading an article won't."

1: I certainly do.

Russ: Sorry, I just put all those words in your mouth.

1: No, I totally do. However, I don't feel that there are that many groups that promote that. I just volunteered for, gosh what's the name of the place .. .it's a place in, not Logan's Circle, like Adams Morgan-ish.

Russ: Martha's Table ...

1: No, but her husband, I mean. Yeah, her husband was affiliated, no, with another group that was an arts institute ... oh, fudge, I can't remember the name-

Russ: Not the Sitar Arts Center.

1 : It was the Sitar Arts Center. Like, community groups like that, I feel are great. Those kids wouldn't be exposed to certain things, yet I feel that their outlook on life will be different from the kid next door, the next door neighbor who chooses not to take part in that institution. Yeah, the arts can affect the your whole outlook on life, you see things from a totally different perspective.

Russ: And then get to talk about it to people that you might not have ever met.

1: Truth. 58

Russ: Well, I think-

1: Don't end this now, JR.

Russ: Well, as stipulated in the contract, we can continue this. But I think I pretty much hit all my points, as far as, again, just taking a look at your training, education, work lifestyle, and then thoughts on community and advocacy. I mean, do you have any thoughts, any thing that you kind of come to realize over the course of this, that you'd like to share.

1: That I'm kind of one of those self-serving assholes. No that's not true. Yeah, it might be beneficial for me to be more outspoken about things.

Russ: I mean, and you already are.

1: Not really. I keep a lot of things to myself.

Russ: Well, yeah, I think that's it. On that note, okay, well we're gonna end this and hopefully it recorded it well.

Subject 2

JR Russ: At what age did you get involved with the performing arts?

Subject 2: From a professional perspective or any perspective?

Russ: Any perspective.

2: Well, really I can't remember a time in my life where performing arts wasn't part of either my daily play as child or part of my curriculum or extracurricular activities in school. So, I mean, pretty much from grade, I would say, three on, I was part of show choir in school and I was part of the school plays. I was really active in speech and debate all through middle school and high school and theatre in high school. And then college is when I really started exploring it professionally.

Russ: So, it would be safe to say in high school it was more, like you said, more extracurricular? Like, did you take classes?

2: I took, urn .. .I took choir when I was in high school, and I also took visual art classes.

Russ: Okay, but then college was really when you started, kind of- 59

2: Yeah, focusing in on theatre.

Russ: Okay. And where did you go to college, and what did you major in?

2: I went to Wellesley College, up outside of Boston, Massachusetts, and I majored in Japanese Language and Literature.

Russ: Okay. So, as far as staying involved in the performing arts, how did that fit into ... or not fit in into your major?

2: Well, my specific major was in Japanese Language and Literature, but the focus of my major, the thesis I wrote on was about Japanese theatre, and specifically contemporary Japanese theatre. I had been in Japan for about ten months during college, working and studying, and I worked an internship at Tokyo Broadcasting System, a TV station, and then I worked another internship at this Takaruzuka Theatre, in Japan, which is what I ended up doing my thesis on. So, and I saw as many Japanese plays and musicals ofall kinds, as I could while I was there. So it was a really, while I wasn't necessarily performing myself while I was over there, I was always surrounded by theatre, and learning about Japanese theatre. And then in college, outside of my major classes, I didn't actually take many theatre classes, I took a dramaturgy class, I took a directing class. But I did, every year, I did several plays through the student theatre organization and then through the college.

Russ: Okay. How did you come to understand, or even get to know the theatre profession through, I guess, those associations, since you were looking at theatre, but through another lens, but you were also interacting with theatre majors through student groups, how did that inform your understanding of theatre art and even how did you come to understand it in a different way than, maybe, theatre majors did?

2: I think that ... well, one of the groups I was involved with at Wellsley was Wellsley College Summer Theatre, which is the professional theatre company that's within the actual college. And so from there I got my first taste of what it is to work on a professional theatre production, what it is to get paid for it, urn ... you know, what it is to have ... breaks. It wasn't equity at that point, but, urn, actually a few of the actors were equity, so we were taking equity breaks and things like that. So that was my first taste of the professional aspect of it, which, I would say, if you were a theatre major at my school.. .like, my school did not have a conservatory program by any means. Most of the people who were theatre majors were also majoring in economics or poli sci or something else. And not all theatre majors were involved with the professional company at the school. So I think, seeing that, urn ... gave me that taste of what it was to be a professional actor a little bit. And then in regards to the Japan stuff.. .looking at theatre through another lens, it just, kind of... cultivated a more international look, a more kind of global look at the way different cultures present performing arts; rather than the traditional Western realism, I explored more the theatricality of the East, you know, theatre for theatre's sake, 60

as opposed to, I feel like in the West, a lot of contemporary theatres focus on realism, method acting. So I'd say that, that look at cultures where theatre isn't so realistic, kind of got my ... was probably something that not all theatre majors experienced.

Russ: I guess, moving on after college, what were your occupational and professional goals? Specifically, you said you had gotten a taste for professional theatre, but was that something you've always, kind of, was on your list of things to do, or did you come to-

2: Well, honestly, when I first had started college, I was really interested in being an animator. Like, I wanted to be a computer graphics animator, like, I wanted to take classes at MIT, which didn't end up happening. But, I studied a lot of computer design, uh, graphics design and ... knew a bit about...computer science. So, after college, I was looking for opportunities to make money using that. Also, going into college, I thought more about being a voice actor; that element of acting was more interesting to me than theatre. In college, that transformed and theatre became what I was most interested in. So when I left college I was also determined to audition for things. And so, 1.. .I'm from Indiana, originally and after I spent a summer in Indiana I realized, you know, I didn't really have a plan. I had applied to graduate programs, but I didn't get in, for theatre. So I didn't really have a plan, and I knew I couldn't stay in Indiana 'cause there just wasn't anything for me to do there, with regards to what I wanted to do. And I had family living out here, and a sister who works as an actor in the area as well. And she told me that DC had a great theatre scene, that I should just come here for a while, audition for things, and look for work, and see what happened. And so that's kind of what took me to DC and got me exploring my professional life in theatre, in DC.

Russ: So, occupation-wise, what are the range of things you do for a living, to make a living.

2: !...currently, I work as a desktop publisher graphic designer for a law association, so that's my, kind of, nine-to-five gig that pays the bills. I've been fortunate enough, in the last couple of years, to make a substantial amount of money from not only theatre but, like, industrial films, commercial print jobs, tapping into that video market. In the past, before I had this steady job, I used to work at... well, another steady position I've held was, I used to work at the Japanese Embassy in the Arts Culture Information department, that was fun. But before that, I interned for a while at a small film production company, I worked as a karaoke host at these bars on the weekend, I temped a lot, l...what else did I do for money? I would do freelance graphic design jobs, I would ... yeah. That's all that comes to mind at the moment. I worked for a while with a friend's company, kind of on that graphic design, the website, and kind ofthe... public relations, a little bit, with the company, kind of marketing.

Russ: So, in general, and maybe it's evolved, it seems like, but when you think of work schedule, what is your work schedule like? I realize there might not be a typical answer, but just- 61

2: Sure, in terms of nowadays?

Russ: Yeah.

2: Generally, my work schedule is nine to five. I am at my current company, though sometimes, they're kind of flexible on the hours, so it's, like, ten to six. And they're also kind of understanding about- actually a couple of other actors work for my organization, who are working actors in the DC area, including my direct boss, and so they're relatively understanding about, for example, needing to take a little bit longer lunch so I can go on an audition, or coming in late due to an appointment/audition in the morning. And I feel really fortunate to have that kind of balance, and I take care that I don't abuse it. So, a typical day would be nine-to-five, ten-to-six, at this company. Sometimes in between, I schedule meetings or auditions. And then if I'm working on a show, generally the rehearsal schedule fits right after that, so it's from six to ten I'm in rehearsal for a show. In times when I'm not in a show, I often use that time to do readings, to see music events, to participate in open-mic type things, to write, to work on other projects, to see other plays. And, the thing about ... the thing that's kind of difficult is I don't really have weekends if I'm working on a show or project, because the weekends are not off days for theatre. And so, the energy and focus I can't put in it, when I have the nine-to-five job during the week, I have to do on the weekends.

Russ: So, with your free time, obviously there's a lot of investment into all these other things you have to do for your craft.

2: Yeah.

Russ: When you do get time to socialize, does that happen often?

2: Not often, not as often as I would like. I have to make a really concerted effort to find people and schedule things way in advance. It's really hard, unless I have a friend who lives down the street, to be, like "hey man, wanna go get a coffee now". It's hard to, um... yeah, it's hard. And I find that a lot of my socialization comes through theatre, comes through work, comes through opportunities like this where I haven't seen you in so long. And so ... yeah, so socialization is difficult. I find, though, that when I'm in a romantic relationship, I make the time anyway for it, it finds a way to fit into my schedule. And I think to myself, well let's say ifl didn't, if this relationship didn't exist, would I be spending all that time socializing with friends? Probably not, I'd probably be watching TV in my room.

Russ: Right, to be fair, I mean, I'm in a similar situation, it's like, when you're with that person, you don't have to do as much, you don't have to go out, you don't have to see a movie, you don't have to get coffee. It's low maintenance, at most. So, when you do normally hang out with friends, is it normally on a more smaller groups, like maybe one 62

or two other people?

2: Absolutely.

Russ: 'Cause I guess, that's all that can really match up.

2: Yeah, I mean once or twice a year I'll try to organize big parties, but I wish it'd happen more often. Or even smaller groups, like dinner parties, but it just doesn't, it's hard because most of my friends are also involved in the theatre, in some way or another, and everyone's schedules are crazy. But I would also say that my personality is more like a one-on-one bonder, when it comes to socialization, I don't like socializing in big groups, necessarily.

Russ: So, speaking to other needs, back to professional needs, do you feel like as a working performance artist, that your needs are met? Again, whatever that might mean... and I can clarify, if you'd like some examples.

2: Yeah.

Russ: Needs with regards to making a living wage, needs with regards to health care, affordable housing ...

2: Got it. Before I had my current job at the law association, I temped for a while. And, as I was temping, I was also working on a bunch of different projects. I worked theatre and performance related projects, like I worked at GW as a standardized patient for a while, and did a bunch of different industrials. But scrape all that together, and the temping, and it wasn't enough to pay all the bills, and that became very frustrating. I didn't have health care. I basically, was, getting by- getting into debt, and getting by with a little bit of assistance from the family. And so, at that point I felt like my needs were not being met. It was very difficult to make enough money. Now, with my current job, that's the nine-to five'er, I find that is satisfying the money portion of it, but the flip-side is I have fewer hours to work on the projects that I really want to make shine. So I have to plan very carefully, like when am I going to be working on this theatre project. Well, I'm working here, here, here and here during the day, I'll have to do it here and here and here. But often at the end of a nine-to-five, I'm so tired, I just want to go home and veg out, like my brain-work's already done for the day, and l...so I guess that's the trade-off at this point. I would love to be able to do arts full-time, but right now I really need to do what financially makes sense and save money, especially ifl want to travel or seek out other markets, where there are more theatre/acting/video jobs, like Los Angeles or New York. Yeah, so I find that difficult.

Russ: Do you feel like there's a trade-off, too, sometimes with the work you get involved with, with how satisfying, not necessarily your own projects, but when you work on a show, that there seems to be an inverse relationship between doing satisfying art and 63

making money.

2: Not that I've noticed, but what I can say is I don't go after a lot of opportunities because of that, like Equity opportunities where the rehearsals are during the day. Like, I don't chase those down as aggressively as I would if I didn't have a nine-to-five job. So, those kinds of jobs are what I want to work, like I want to work with good directors, I want to work with stellar, professional level casts. But the opportunity to do that suffers when you have to be in an office during that time.

Russ: So I guess with regards to, before you found this nine-to-five job, did you feel like there were people, organizations, entities you could go to, to express your concerns, your needs, and actually have them be addressed in some way? Or did you feel like you were on your own?

2: I felt like I was on my own. I mean, I felt like there were resources such as workshops for actors which teach them how to be an artist full-time, but those workshops cost money. I could empathize, like my friends and I could all empathize with each other, but we always came to the same conclusions, like "oh, money's good; yeah it's good to make money; we should be making money." In terms of an organization I could go to, I didn't really know of any. It didn't really occur to me either; the option never popped in my mind, to ask anybody else for help that wasn't family or close friends.

Russ: I haven't asked this question before, because I never really thought about it, but sometimes when you go into jobs, normal jobs, there's sometimes an option to negotiate your salary, or how you much you make based on whatever. Do you feel like there's that opportunity in the theatre/performing arts world?

2: To negotiate salary?

Russ: Yeah, like if you don't feel like you're making as much as you deserve, to ask for a little more?

2: I feel like it's kind of unheard of, in terms of ensemble shows. Like when you're doing your own solo shows and you're getting booked for a certain venue, then you can negotiate, like, "can you guys pay me X amount, and cover my housing and travel." So, that's more negotiable when you're a solo artist, negotiating stuff. But when you're cast in a show, I think any actor who'd be, like "mmm, can you do a bit better than that?" would get slapped, because there are thousands, hundreds of other people who are hungry to take that spot, for that same amount of pay. So I get the impression that the casting director's probably like, "what, what's wrong with you?" I mean, that's just the way it is, I guess no body's ever questioned it, so nobody ever thinks ... I'm just thinking if a casting agent for an industrial project was like, "the flat rate's $250 a day", you would never be, like "mmm, can you do better?" Then they'd be like, "next person, please." So you kind of just have to take it. 64

Russ: Kind of jumping to a related subject, just the notion of community, stepping back from the question, so don't worry about how it might relate. But, how do you defme "community", or "communities"? And there can be different types, it's not one ...

2: Well, the fust kind of community that comes to mind, is the community that's defined by a group of people working on art, or working for a similar goal in the same geographic area. So when I think of the DC Theatre community, there's a whole lot of different people that spring to my mind, that they're all working with various goals, and various strengths and skills, but that whole group for performing arts, specifically theatre in DC, I think of that as a community, and they're here in DC. I also think of community as not only being confined to a geographic location, like there's temporary communities, like for example that Fringe Festivals set up, it's a community of visiting artists. Like, when I was in Indianapolis and San Francisco, to some degree, at those Fringe Festivals, I felt a big community of, like "we're the artists here at the Fringe Festival", especially the out-of town artists, and that was a temporary community. But then it kind of goes out to, we don't share the same geographic location anymore, but it's this network of artists. It can be linked by culture, for example, like Sulu DC, which is Asian Pacific Islander, and so those people are from all over the US, and different disciplines, but it's that same community of promoting Asians in the arts. And then, you can also look at community, I think, as literally the people around you at any given living location or working location. So, even though I don't really know them, this is a community; but it doesn't feel like- to me a community also means communication, so ... you know, a network. I feel like there are communities that are based on shared experiences, like college, like the alumni network and community. And I feel like there's also community through family ... who you're related to. Yeah.

Russ: And I guess you've kind of touched on them, but just to clarify, so what communities would you say you are a part of?

2: For better or for worse, I'm part of the DC Theatre community. Which again, the reason I say that, is it's weird for me because ... again, I like socializing one-on-one, I don't like socializing in a group. And sometimes I find myself at events that a lot of the DC Theatre community are attending, and I'm like, "ahhh, hello". But I'm definitely a part of that community. I'd like to think that...I'm ... well, by default, I'm part of the community of my coworkers, at my day job. I'm part of.. .I think specific theatres have specific communities that are attached to them. And I think I'm a part of, or I have at one point been part of the Synetic Theater community, the Adventure Theatre community, um ... Studio Theatre community, base on what I'm working on, how well I keep in touch with those people. I'm definitely part of the Wellesley community, where I went to school, and the alumni network. I'd like to also think I'm part of the solo performers community that's erupted across the U.S., through people I've met at Fringes, and we all kind of help each other out. I'm part of the South Asian community, too, forgot about that. And that's something that's new for me, because I spent a lot of my childhood and 65

college life staying away from the South Asians, because I have a lot of stereotypes and racism against my own race. But, I fully embrace that, in my early twenties, now. And so, I feel really a lot more comfortable with other South Asians, specifically the Indian community, I have a lot oflndian friends. It's comforting sometimes. Yeah, I guess that's, those're-

Russ: And your family, you mentioned.

2: Oh, my family, yeah.

Russ: Okay, so jumping a bit, this other term I'd be curious to see how you conceptualize it: "advocacy". How would you define "advocacy"?

2: It's my understanding ... well first of all, I just want to say, I don't know a lot about advocacy. That's my understanding that advocacy is when... someone represents a group of people or a person, or someone who has specific wants, needs, and conveys that message to the people who can make a difference, getting grants, people who are active in the government, people who are active in different arts organizations, kind of like the boards. Advocacy is, to me, working to give a voice to people who can't necessarily get their voice in the right ear. That's kind of how I understand it.

Russ: So how would you then defme "arts advocacy" and is it present in your life?

2: I'm aware of arts advocacy very peripherally, I think in large part because I live in Washington, DC and I think advocacy is a big part of everything here, every discipline. But specifically arts advocacy .. .l'm thinking of using arts themselves as a method of advocacy for other groups. I know of several people whose work is more political, or more for raising awareness about a certain issue, rather than looking at it solely for the literature, or solely for the story or the fiction.

Russ: But as far as advocacy for the arts themselves, it's not really something that-

2: No, it's not something I think about or really know much about at all, or am aware of.

Russ: One recent example, which might be the first time I'm kind of aware of a large movement with regards to arts advocacy, the DC theatre ticket tax. Have heard about-

2: DC theatre ticket tax?

Russ: Yeah.

2:No.

Russ: Okay, we'll talk about that off the record. I guess, where I wanted to go with 66

this ... the struggle to function as a working performer, it obviously seems like it's wide spread, yet when you think of advocacy and arts advocacy, while people might advocate for the arts, and I'm sharing my own observations at this point, they might advocate for the art itself, but the actual awareness for artists isn't raised, and in your own life, have you had family members or friends who you've actually maybe had a moment where you've informed them about what it is, what it really means to be a working artist, that you're actually doing this for a living?

2: Yeah, I mean, I end up having a lot of... frustrating interactions with people who are, like "oh did you get paid to do this?" or, like "oh, that's great that you're still doing theatre, like, as a hobby". I'm like-

Russ: Like it's something you were going to grow out of?

2: Yeah, and I'm like "are you kidding me?! this is my life!!" To minimize it, that feels frustrating. Yeah, that's interesting, that's something I hadn't thought of, specifically advocacy for the artists who are involved in the theatre making. Yeah, you're right, because the focus is always so much on the art, the message, but without a lot of thought to what actually goes into it-

Russ: Or effecting change on a government level, rather than even on a one-on-one level, that's a form of advocacy.

2:Right.

Russ: So, whether you know it or not, you've been an advocate.

2: Well that's cool.

Russ: Yeah, I guess, kind of, trying to pull this all together. Now, you weren't a theatre major, but how much of being, like taxes for example; is that something you had to figure out on your own, or was there a mechanism where you could be, like "I'm a working artist, what do I need to do in order to file my taxes?"

2: Taxes, ah... oh god. Well, I used a great little software program called Turbo Tax, and that kind of walked me through it. But I also had my sister, who I mentioned is also an actor. And so she had been filing her artist's tax, she had worked a steady job at that point, but she was also filing self-employment tax for her acting business. So she kind of helped me through that, a little bit. But I still feel like I'm in the dark in a lot of areas, like where to file, if I'm required to file for certain states based on one paycheck I've received from that state, but the actual production was in DC. So, that stuff is all a little unclear to me, and I know that there are workshops being offered in the DC area by, like, the Art of Taxes, for example, I think it was the Cultural...C-U-C-DC 67

Russ: Cultural Development Corporation-

2:Yeah, I know they offer stufflike that, they offer, like, the Art of Taxes. And I'm a member of them, actually, so I should probably really take them up on their workshops. But when I first started, really it was only through other people. And even still, other people tell me, "Oh Zebra, did you do blah-blah-blah-blah-blah?" And I'm like, "Oh, I have to do that?" I'm like, "crap!" So ... yeah, I mean the thing, I feel, with being a performing artist is there's no defmed- everybody approaches it very differently, so there's no one defmed path. So as a result there isn't a lot of documented stuff on, how do we do this, how do we do this. And I want to say as supportive and lovely as a lot of artist are with each other, at the end of the day it's about competition, it's about getting your show in, it's about getting that role and taking the spot so nobody else can take it. And I can't help but wonder if, maybe, that's a reason why there isn't more of a collective? Or maybe why I'm not aware of a more collective, kind of, thing for artists, where there's like a shared repository of dealing with the daily stuff, working as an artist.

Russ: Do you feel like there might be also ... because obviously there's a need for support from the community, but there's certain ways we interact when we go to an audition which conflicts with that sense of community-

2: Yeah.

Russ: Do you feel like there might be also more that organizations can do? Because obviously they've had people come through, they worked, they've been there themselves, so there's more support they could even provide that wouldn't even take that much more time and energy for artists, at whatever stage their at? Which isn't to say that everyone has to, but it's just you think with all these organizations, they kind of help a little bit.

2: Yeah. Well, I think dialogue is the most important thing. I remember at Woolly Mammoth, I went to one of their dialogues they had after "How Theatre Failed America", that was so amazing!! Like, I would love for stufflike that to happen more often, if not that organized, maybe an organization could have happy hours, where you come and you socialize but the topic of the happy hour is, how to file your taxess, or how to get affordable health care, and then people could just share advice at that happy hour. Because you're right, in an audition, it's not for socialization, it's a job interview. So it can be hard to really feel like you're connecting with people in a way you really want to generally connect with them at an audition.

Russ: Happy Hour sounds like, I mean- because like you said, there are workshops that offer these topics, but a, workshops normally costs money, orb, that workshop environment, you don't really want it to be that. You want the information, but you want it to be a little more accessible, and cater to your needs, rather than something that might or might not apply to you, maybe more social. 68

2: Exactly. And, a happy hour, the costs are defrayed by everybody, so it's not like one person, one artist is going to be robbed because they're holding this workshop and they don't get paid for it. Because that's not fair to, 'cause I know a lot of working artists hold these workshops in order to get more income in their specialty area.

Russ: I think we kind of covered most of everything, actually.

2: Oh really?

Russ: Yeah, urn, I guess, again, just wanted to get your sense of how you understand community, specifically the communities in the area, understanding advocacy and what arts advocacy can be. I mean, you expressed how you understand it, but then also seeing other potential avenues for advocating for the arts, and artists.

2: You know, I think ... for me personally, I think a reason why I don't complain about being a working artist, like I don't, I don't make the public aware of how hard it is to be me, it's because I don't want it to sound like that. Because already my career is so much about my ego, my image, that's the product I'm trying to sell, and my ability to change that and work that. And so, to again, bring up, like "why aren't I getting paid?" that to me feels, I don't know, I guess, there's a stigma that artists have on themselves, like "I'm selfish, and I'm a bad person, and I'm a diva because I work in the performing arts, because I want everyone to look at me" then I should put my needs ahead, like I should just be making the idea of the starving artist is a romantic one that people subscribe to, and I think that needs to change because I'm not an artist to starve, I'm an artist to make money. That's what people need to understand, "why do you do your art, who do you want to reach?" I'm like, "yes, I want to reach X, Y & Z." But at the end of the day, I want to feed myself, I want to have a good lifestyle, I want to do this for a living. And to some people that's like, "oh, you're selling out." That's like, "okay ... enjoy your ramen." That sounds harsh, but !...yeah, so in a career that's already so much about you, I think people are afraid to take- I know I would be ... that's why I put with the people being, like "Oh, you do that? Like, how do you do it? Wow, do you get paid?" I don't make a big to do about it.

Russ: Do you also feel like sometimes, compared with other issues, because it can be perceived to be so much about the individual and "I'm a working artist" that it has issues competing with how important other topics or issues that are being advocated for, might be?

2: Sure, I think that's always the case with the arts, you know? If someone is dying on the street, obviously you're going to give them medical attention, and you're going to find them housing, and you're gonna get them all the basics-like when there's stuff that's threatening the basic needs, rights of life, that stuff obviously takes precedent over art. But at the same time, art's so important for our culture and society and psychology. So ... yeah ... 69

Russ: Something else that has come up, as far as dealing with perceptions of art, is how arts might be seen as a luxury, as elitist, and also how larger organizations, when they get to a certain point, it does become about being able to fill the seats, sell the tickets. Do you think that part of the problem is the arts have become so about the art itself, that it forgets how it's connected with the rest of society? And, granted there are other people that are like "arts education is important for developmental learning", "arts therapy important for health care", we forgot how much arts can better people holistically, to help be a part of a solution rather than it's own...

2: Totally. I do think that sometimes art, specifically the theatre world can be very insular, it's like "theatre for theatre sake", it's theatre for generally a very specific group, and then they're surprised when they don't get other types of people coming to see the show, and they charge sixty-five dollars a ticket. But I think that a lot of theatres are working to improve those things, by offering discount, by doing specials, by reaching out to the community more. I think that just needs to continue and expand more, because I guess that's the thing .. .like are you an artist to help other people, is that your goal? Or are you an artist to ... be almost like a painting on the wall, that people look at and think things about and appreciate? Like, is it giving them water, is it feeding them? No, but it's feeding them in a different way. So I don't think everyone should be bleeding heart, "oh my art is for you, to help you", because.. .! don't like that kind of art necessarily. I like to look at the painting on the wall and be like "that reminds me of this, in my life, hmm." So-

Russ: So it's more about letting the art .. .let the audience see themself.

2: Yeah, I think so. I think that's the point. Yeah, I think that's the point... of art, completely.

Russ: But then we it becomes about seeing the artist, and like, "oh, they're such a beautiful singer" or "oh, look at their extension, with their leg up there."

2: Right, right. But, you know what, I feel like the general public, like people who aren't involved in theatre necessarily, go, and they see the whole. People who know theatre pretty well, see the nit picky things about the artists, because they know from the inside what that's like. But.. .I don't think, I don't think the general public stops, necessarily, to recognize certain specific things about the artist because they just don't know. And, I guess that's the thing, like: should they know, one. Does that almost break the illusion at some point? Or, two, if they should know, then what's a good, non-egotistical way of promoting knowledge. I think it all starts from, so long, you have to get a hair and get a real job. And that's changing now, in America certainly. But in other cultures, for example India!Pakistan ... back when my parents were kids, thirty, forty years ago ... fifty years ago, now, I mean either be a doctor or a lawyer and engineer, and that's it. If you're anything else, you're stupid, you're illiterate. And I feel like that's the case in a lot of 70

cultures, like the arts just isn't a viable career. So I think that needs to change. I don't know how, but that's, I think, part of why people don't understand what it is to be a working artist, they think it's just hocum, or they think that you're just wasting time.

Russ: I guess, just jumping back to yourself being a working artist, compared to other people you have quite a diverse skill set. From my observation, you haven't put yourself in a box, like I know some actors who are, like "when I finish college I'm only going to do these roles, and I only want to work for these theatres." And because of that, they actually almost limit what they can do and how much they can grow. And it seems like you've gone the other route, you're like "I'll do what I can, I'll see what I can learn." Would that be accurate?

2: I think so.

Russ: And do you observe that when you do talk to some other people, maybe other people you've met when you first moved here, and, I mean, not to pump up your ego anymore, but might've seen more growth in your own career than theirs? And this is confidential.

2: Well, for me, what I think it is .. .is, I'm not just happy with performing. And some people are totally happy just being actors, and that's awesome. Some people want to do musical theatre, and that's what they want to do, and that's awesome. But I like to think that I'm a pretty well-rounded person, with a thirst for a lot of different things, so I want to get my hands in writing, I want to get my hands in directing, I want to get my hands in thinking about things, and creating them rather than just saying them. But I'm also interested in the art of learning how to say others' words. But my passion, I think, lies more with my mind generating ideas and seeing them come to life. And because of that drive, I'm able to do and grow and push myself in ways that people who are solely actors or performers might not be able to. I think there are different kinds of skill sets, and you follow what you're passionate about and what you're naturally apt at. So I think because ... that's the thing, I never have thought of myself as just an actor, and most of the people whom I'm close friends with, don't think of themselves as just actors, either. And I don't...like, the close friends I've made from the DC theatre community, I don't view them as, "oh, that's my actor friend." It's like, "no, that's my friend ... he's also an actor." Urn, whereas I feel there are some people who, perhaps I just don't know as well, who are very much like, "actor-ly, actor-ly, actor-ly, actor-ly". And don't have a lot of knowledge, or desire for knowledge about other aspects, and that's not wrong. But, it's just about being on different wave lengths, and having different goals.

Russ: I guess, just to wrap up, are there any final thoughts you have, any other realizations, questions you might have for me?

2: I would love to know more about how you, what you define arts advocacy as. 71

Russ: Okay, well, we could do that off the record.

2: Okay ... um. I think it's hard being a working artist. And I think there are ways to do it, and some people do it. And it's also a matter of, like, there are so few jobs to have for so many people, and it's especially the case if you go to, like, New York. But.. .like I've often, a lot of people I've heard them say, if you think you could do anything other than this professionally, then go do it. Don't do this career, unless you're absolutely like- And I've always thought that was a little severe, 'cause .. .like ... why not do it if you feel like doing it? You don't have to do it forever, but why not do it when you want to do it? Like, I feel like the case with any career, you don't have to make necessarily these big decisions about your life, for the rest of your life. Anything is reversible, and changeable, almost. So, especially when it comes to starting over and doing something else. So, I feel like if the passion is driving you in the moment to do it, and you can do it, and you can find a way, through whatever means, to keep a roof over your head and keep yourself fed and healthy, then you're very lucky. And there's a way to do it, if that's what you really want. I mean, I wish things could be better, but in order for things to be better, you have to be better and you have to think outside of the box. You have to blanket yourself over different things, and ... because if you are rigid and you only want to do one thing, it's very hard to get success. But if you, kind of, spread to different areas of performance, people say, "oh, that makes you unfocused", but...I don't know, I think there's a balance between being unfocused and smart about financial opportunities.

Russ: Okay, well...that's all folks.

Subject 3

JR Russ: What age or grade did you get involved with the performing arts?

Subject 3: Technically when I was in sixth grade, so I guess I was about eleven. Tell you about it?

Russ: Sure, yeah.

3: Well, I was always a big ham and performing all the time, singing all the time. But when I was in fifth grade, my best friend, Hannah was in- there was one community theatre in my town, called Civic Theatre, and they did Christmas Carol every year. My best friend Hannah did it every year and she got to miss school for it. So everyone was always talking about her doing it, and she was telling me about it on the bus, and she was telling me how there was a bunch of kids in it; you could be an urchin, or a party kid, and I was like, "I could do that". Then I auditioned for it and I got in, and there was a hundred kids, so. But, so that was my first show, A Christmas Carol when I was in sixth grade. Then I just started taking classes at the theatre and doing shows with Civic Theatre, and that's how I started doing it. 72

Russ: Cool. And then, how did that progress until high school, were you just still doing shows?

3: Yeah, I was always played sports and I was a cheerleader. So I was a cheerleader in high school, but then I hated it, so then I joined the dance team instead. And then I started auditioning for plays, so I got into the high school theatre program, and I did Little Shop of Horrors, and I never stopped after that. I did show choir, and all that kind of stuff.

Russ: Okay, cool. So was most of your involvement extracurricularly, or did you actually ever take classes or training?

3: Yeah, when I first started with Christmas Carol when I was in sixth grade, I took acting and movement on the weekends with that same theatre. And then in high school I took dance classes and took acting classes, and then junior and senior year you were able to take a two hour block of either acting, music, or dance. So took acting for two hours every day, starting my junior of high school. Yeah, we had an arts program.

Russ: What high school?

3: Allen, oh William Allen High School.

Russ: And then you came to AU?

3: Yeah.

Russ: And just a musical theatre major. And how was that?

3: It was good, I mean I wanted to go to NYU but I didn't get in. And I think if you talk to a lot of people they'll say similar things, like that.

Russ: But that sentiment changed once you got here?

3: Yeah, I mean I love DC and I didn't even really know about AU, but I found out they had a B.A. in Musical Theatre, which I was, like "whoa, nobody has that." So, I was really interested in that and they had an audition, and I met Carl Menninger and I met everybody and had a great response with them, and everything. And I wanted to do musical theatre, I wanted to do theatre, but I didn't really want a conservatory. I really liked NYU because you could make your own, but that was the most intense I wanted to go. I didn't really audition for many other conservatories. I was really looking at liberal arts colleges that had good theatre programs, and this one had musical theatre, so it kind of fit exactly what I wanted. So, yeah, I think I had a great experience here, and I met a lot of awesome people, and the best part, for me, was that I get to travel so much and do theatre overseas. 73

Russ: Oh, when did you get to do that?

3: We went to Russia my sophomore year, with Gail...for free, which was amazing. We did a terrible, awful show. It was a horrible show, but it was an amazing experience going to Russia and performing in Russia, and it was like, this huge theatre, the oldest theatre in Russia. We got to do these master classes with other students our age, Russian students, in an acting conservatory, and we did comparing scenes, we did Glass Menagerie and Three Sisters. And they did it in Russian, we did it in English, and we compared and it was amazing. And they did a traditional Russian dance, singing thing, and it was so cool. Talking about cross-cultural communication, that is like the epitome of it. It was just so amazing, we had translators and became best friends with them and we saw dance performance, and we did all sorts of things, saw musical performance, and it was just such an amazing-***

Russ: So Russia-

3: Yeah, so I just finished talking about Russia, and then I started talking about how I went to London-

Russ: Right.

3: Okay, so I studied abroad at the British American Drama Academy, for three months, which was also amazing. And that was just straight acting and a lot of Shakespeare and a lot of movement, a lot ofhigh comedy, and also clowning, improv, that kind of thing. And then the last month we just did a show, which was amazing. So we didn't really have any homework, it was all acting conservatory, so after-hours we didn't really study. But, I like doing intensives for small periods of time. Three months with a group of people, I love that. But for years, not so much. So that was cool. And then the last month I did Comedy of Errors, so I just spent the whole month rehearsing Shakespeare and learning physical comedy. And it was so awesome, and then I got to travel after-*** Oh, and then the last thing was, not through AU, but because of who I knew at AU and how I found about it, I just ended up going to Ghana recently, and doing a program where I did music and dance and drama to teach AIDS awareness to people in Ghana, so that was the latest traveling I did, all through arts, and performing arts and everything like that.

Russ: And when did you do that?

3: I did that on September and October of'09.

Russ: Neat. So it sounds like you've had a good deal of training outside of Academia, outside of high school and college, but some of it was related to college exchange. Have you had any kind of training outside, maybe at theatres? 74

3: Not at other theatres? But I did take a lot of classes when I was in high school, independently. I went to the Pennsylvania Governor School for the Arts, which is a scholarship program that's five weeks, at Mercyhurst College, which is in Erie, Pennsylvania, it's this tiny, tiny little place. But it's this little oasis for artists, not just performing artists but also visual artists too. And then I took classes at DeSales University and Muhlenberg College, which are both Pennsylvanian colleges and they just offer summer programs for high school students.

Russ: Cool. So currently your occupation is, or occupations are?

3: Actress and also, would you say, a caregiver for children. Also, a temp worker, which is just an office worker, and that's it, right now.

Russ: So, speaking of work, what's your typical work schedule like? What's your typical busy work schedule, and what's your typical, if you have a non-busy, I guess when you have a down period ...

3: It changes depending on what show I'm doing. So, recently I was doing children's theatre, so I would work during the day, so I would go to my temp job and office in the morning, then I would babysit in the afternoon/evening, and then I would go to rehearsal in the evening. And then it would switch, where I would go to performances during the day, and then I would babysit after that, and then I'd have performances on the weekend. Right now, I'm doing an adult show, so I just have rehearsals and performances in the evening. So I generally work in the office during the day and then babysit in the afternoon.

Russ: So free time, when do you have it and what do you do with it?

3: Oh my gosh, well soon, school will be over. I didn't originally want to be a babysitter, I don't like babysitting at all. But the place I used to work had an emergency, so they asked me and it was good money, and it worked with my children's theatre schedule. So soon, hopefully, I'll be getting a waitressing job. But right now, I usually have weekends off, like weekend evenings, or weekend afternoons. And then occasionally, I'll have one morning off or one evening off, or a couple. Right now I'm in performances, so my schedule isn't as hectic; when I was in tech, I never had an evening off. Right now I have a few evenings off, or a few mornings off. I usually do my grocery shopping, pay my bills, do my laundry, clean my house ... maybe, like have coffee with somebody. Or go on auditions, go on a lot of auditions, go to meetings and see other shows, that's usually my free time.

Russ: So, not too much just chillaxing, hanging out.

3: Sometimes, it's hard because I live with my boyfriend, we have very opposite schedules, 'cause he has a normal person job. Although he does work a lot of hours as 75

well, so when we do have time off together, I usually try to spend time with him, like go to dinner, lay in bed and watch a movie-

Russ: Normal things.

3: Normal things, sleep in. Or I go to the gym, I try to go to the gym a lot, as much as I can. So if I do have a free night, I like to go to the gym, and spend a lot of time there, trying to burn off calories that I ate during tech, when we were like "oh, it's late, let's go to Burger King", or whatever. And I'm just like, "ahh".

Russ: So normally when you do get to hang out, it's usually in smaller, with one or two other people, but typically not with larger groups, or the most people might be at a party.

3: Yeah... well, now since I've graduated, I don't really go to parties, like late parties ...

Russ: Well, not like that, but you know-

3: Yeah, we'll go out for drinks. Yeah, I'll do that sometimes, 'cause we'll go to a bar that my friend works at, or my boyfriend works at a bar, so we'll go meet up with people there. Like, small group of friends, or go out with the cast of the show that I'm in, that's always fun.

Russ: So is it normally other... that was actually a good segue into a related question, urn ... normally other working professionals in the arts.

3: I kind of have split, so half the people I hang out with are other artists, not just actors but singers, musicians, and stage manager friend or whoever else, directors. But my close group of friends from college are not theatre people at all, and that's kind of nice 'cause I get to hang out with different groups of people. And then they all come see my shows, which is good. And then I can try to introduce people, and that kind of thing.

Russ: Over the time that they've gotten to know you, now that you graduated especially, do you feel like you've educated them as to what it means to be a working performer, whether there are any kind of stereotypes or misconceptions that you've dealt with at any ...

3: Misconceptions, um... yeah, I mean sometimes my friends will make a jab like, "oh, you theatre people, you never wake up early." That sort of thing, like "I have a real job, I have to be up at 6:30 in the morning", that sort of thing. But everybody understands that it's hard, it's hard for everybody especially nowadays; every field is competitive and we're lucky to be working in general. So everybody understands crazy schedule and needing to give up some personal time, sometime, because you have to drop and go to an audition and go to a meeting, or something like that. And all my friends are very supportive, my family's very supportive, which is good. So I don't necessarily have to take a lot of flack 76

for what I do, right now. Because I'm still kind of new and trying, and I don't see my family a lot because I have to be down here, trying to work. That can be hard sometimes.

Russ: So is it normally up to, because your schedules is all over the place, you're normally the one who's like, "free time now", or do they still call regularly?

3: No, and you know Facebook is really good for that, because everybody is aware of what I'm doing and I'm aware of what other people are doing. And we just keep in touch a lot, and everybody, whether it's my family or my friends, we all just try to let each other know what's going on with us, so we can make time for each other and stuff like that.

Russ: So as a working professional, do you feel like your needs are being met by your work, right now?

3: Absolutely not, no.

Russ: Please, expand.

3: Well, when I first graduated, I did a show at the Fringe Festival and I got paid one hundred dollars, and I was so happy, and I did two other things, small things, that paid me each a hundred dollars, and I was so happy, I was like, "yes, I'm getting a hundred dollars, this is great." And I worked full-time, and I was doing okay, when I first graduated, because I didn't have to pay loans yet, and I was like, "I'm going to save up for this Ghana trip, it's going to be great." And I came back from Ghana, and it was like, "oh, you have loans, you have insurance, you have this and this and this." And I was like, "oh no." But, I still did okay, because I was working at a theatre that paid me very well, so I was very happy, because it was the equivalent of one part-time job's work, and I worked two other part-time jobs, and I was making good enough money to pay my loans, pay my rent, pay my insurance, do everything. But then those two shows ended, so that carried me through six months, and then after those shows ended, I just got another show, just after that, but the pay is much, much, much, much, much smaller. You get thirty percent of the house, and the house is very, very small. So I'll get a few hundred dollars if I'm lucky. And then I had to pay tickets, because I'm self-employed.

Russ: Did you know about that, when you finished college?

3: I knew about it, but you know I'm not the most financially savvy person, to be perfectly honest. So, I ... knew that I was going to have to pay some money, but I didn't realize quite how much money I was going to have to pay. And it was also because I worked odd jobs too, at an office, so my old employer, when I first started working, paid me just the check. And then, I think it's a W-3 or something, you have to fill out, and then you have to end up paying money. I wasn't very smart about my finances this year, and ended up having to pay a lot of money. And then I went to the dentist. And they were like, "oh, you have a discounted plan, so you get, like, this much coverage," and not the 77

whole shebang. So, recently, my finances have been very low, and my needs have definitely not been met in my primary profession. I'm spending a lot more money to try and get ahead in my profession, spending money to go see shows, traveling to auditions, paying for headshots, printing fees, mailing fees, buying clothes for auditions, things like that. In the hopes of landing something that will pay me more, I'm actually really close to something that will pay me-

Russ: So, a bit of an investment.

3: Absolutely, absolutely. And I accept that, I just, with the taxes and the dentist thing, I'm a little bit backed up right now. So hopefully, soon, I will land a new job in the acting world, in my artistic profession, that will meet my needs, I'm hoping.

Russ: You actually mentioned insurance, but I take it that's not through being a working actress.

3: No, I have to pay my own insurance.

Russ: Okay.

3: Yes, actually, well, with the new Obama plan, I'm hoping to get back on my parents' plan. Yeah, I need to get on that, try to find out how to do that. But, I didn't ever want to be without health insurance, so I started paying my own, right away. And it's a very cheap plan, it doesn't really cover very much, but I wanted to just have it. I don't like going without it, you know what I mean, and I know a lot of people do, and it just makes me feel weird. So I got it anyway, and you can deduct that on taxes, which is great, I can deduct all my expenses and everything, which is good, but still wound up paying money, so ...

Russ: And you had to figure that all out on your own?

3: Yeah. TurboTax was helpful. But I'm just not a very financially, like my brain does not compute, like, "I'm an actress, I don't understand that, what?" But I have another callback this coming Monday for a show, so hopefully I'll get in and get lots of money this fall for doing it.

Russ: I have two questions, but I'm going to go with: as far as your needs, and it sounds like most of what you've done is figure it out on your own, do you know of any places or communities or groups or organizations or people that you feel like you could go to, to either speak about these needs, bring them up as concern? You mentioned Obama's new healthcare plan, obviously bodies mobilized together to do that. Do you feel like there's any place where you could go, to get the support of other actors, other theatre professionals? 78

3: You know, honestly, you're the one person I would talk to about these sort ofthings, because you're building a community of artists that I wasn't even aware of, existed in Washington, DC. And just from meeting people, the more people I meet, and the more people that are above me in this field, I'll learn about these resources and they'll help me and maybe offer me guidance or whatever, past professors I had or other friends that have done this. But as far as community and groups, you're the one that I know that has networked all that together, so I would go on Facebook and I would look up things that you have made me aware of. So, you're really the only person I know that's really brought awareness of that sort of things, through your messaging and everything, through groups that you do, and that sort of thing, so yeah.

Russ: Well, thanks.

3: In DC, I don't really think there's a whole lot of that happening, I think it's growing. It's a small community of artists that I think, it's definitely growing, in different directions. As far as theatre and actress, like ... DC is sort ofhalfNew York, halfPhilly, and it's all over the place. People come from all over, it's not just local DC actors that get hired, so there is a sense of community but there's also not, because .. .I don't know, everyone's going in different directions and has different goals. So my goals aren't necessarily to like I enjoy the community and we put on great art, for sure, like I love what I see. But, for the level I want to be at, I don't necessarily believe, at this point, that I should stay in DC. I want to stay connected to the people that I know, for sure. I haven't stopped trying to build those connections, but as a young, white woman ... my opportunities are limited here. Time-wise is also a factor, so maybe ifl stayed longer, it's really hard because I'm kind of on the cusp right now, I'm like, "should I stay another year?" Because I am making connections, and the community has been positive, to a point. But half of it's, they stay with the same people that they already know, or they just hire people from New York. So, it's really hard to know if you're being embraced or not, you just have to keep plugging away. I feel there are good communities and resources, but I might not be in with them yet, so I'm still working on it, still trying to find my way in that area.

Russ: And actually, that leads me to my second question. So, it seems like a lot ofthe information you've come across has been primarily second-hand, or through people and acquaintances you've made and know. But do you feel like, I mean you've got a B.A. in Musical Theatre, and I've seen you perform, it's obviously trained you well.

3: Thank you.

Russ: But do you feel like there's training as far as the other half of the coin, that could have been addressed before you finished university?

3: Oh, absolutely, yes, definitely. That's the problem with a liberal art education, I think, and I think I knew that going in. But I didn't quite realize the business aspect of it before I graduated, in that a lot of the training ... and in here, and I think it's here and most other 79

liberal arts, I don't think AU is horrible, I think AU is great. A lot of it's theoretical, a lot of it isn't necessarily practical, and that's why I was happy to go of to other places and do more intensive things that are a little more practical, instead ofjust writing papers about acting and doing character studies, actually getting up and exploring them and creating new characters, trying to branch up and be a more versatile actor. And also, in the sense that.. .as far as getting out there, and meeting people, making connections, and getting auditions, and landing shows before you even graduate, it's really tough. And I think AU does have good relationships with certain theatres and certain people, and I had opportunities to audition given to me by professors and also that I was able to take on my own, through people contacting me, through the mass e-maillistserve, which was great, and DC has league auditions which are great, and my auditions class was very helpful, and they did bring in some people at the end, casting agents and that sort of thing to talk to us and see us perform, which was great. But, I don't know, there could always be more, there's things that they could do that would maybe push them more to a conservatory, like most conservatories have big, huge agent night. Or everybody has a showcase, where they do their thing, kind of like our capstone, but they bring in people from DC that could potentially cast them. But then again, there's not that many agents in DC. There's directors, and it's really hard to figure it out, to see where they could be improvements. And some of it is on me, because I didn't really know. I did it as I went along, like senior year I didn't get cast in the main show, so I was like "alright, I'm gonna have to go outside of AU to get experience, I might as well start now." And so, I don't know, I think maybe .. .! always think that AU could be more competitive, as far as who is in the program. For us people who actually want a career performing, verse the people that I actually want a career doing other things within the arts, which are also great, or people that want to do both, which is also awesome, which I wanna do that to. 'Cause I think that the people that actually want to perform, they could push us more, challenge us more, make us do harder things, make us do .. .I don't know, more auditions or something, I don't know. Because, once you've graduated, then you're sort of out in the middle of the ocean, and you're like "where do I go", whereas when you're still in college, you're like "oh, I have time .. .I can work on this monologue later." You know, "there'll be other auditions." Whereas you're always looking back going like "should I have ·done this? should I have learned this? should I have gone for this audition?" I don't know, it's really hard to know what the best thing is, but I think AU could always, the arts department could always push itself to be more challenging, more competitive, and more focused on actually getting people careers after college.

Russ: So, outside of graduating from university, and outside of actually working in theatre, maybe organization's not the right word to use, but even if there were a place where you could just go to socialize with other working professionals, if there were a home where you knew you could go that serviced our odd-working hours, do you feel like a place like that would actually maybe help inform you in ways that- I mean, like you said, you are making the connections, and you're having to go to shows and all this, but even that seems like a lot of work. 80

3: It's a lot of work, it's a lot of work, it never ends. Yeah, that's the thing, I realize as I'm talking, I'm like "there's the Actor's Center", and that's an amazing resource, and why am I not even thinking about that? Because I don't use it. I used it to a point, and then after that, I was like "I can't use that anymore" because the places that are going to pay you better and give you points towards being in the union, and actually getting you a living wage, and making this be your career, aren't posting on Actor's Center. Actor's Center is for young, new people, which is great. And I'm sort of in the middle. Are you going to talk to Vishal?

Russ: No, I'm not.

3: Vishal, is where I want to be. But he's still in the middle, too. He has been offered his card three or four times, now, and turned it down. Which everyone says is the right move to make, but I would die to be offered my card. And he just went through four callbacks at Arena, and Arena who's known for mostly New York people. And he doesn't think he got it, but he hasn't heard back, so I don't know. But he's worked at Ford's, he's worked at Signature, he's worked at Olney, he's worked at all these place that...well Olney doesn't pay you that great, I don't think, but those other places do and give you points towards being in the union, which is everybody's goal, really. And I'm not at that point, yet. I'm still going on open calls, I'm still looking for auditions, as opposed to being called into them; I've only been called into one audition, just on my own, and it was because I knew someone, which was great, because I had a class with them at AU, so yay!! But that's only one, and I've been here for almost a year. But I did go away for a few months, so it's like once you're at me and Vishal's point, Actor's Center doesn't really help you, because it's all ... not necessarily community theatre, but places I'm working now are only paying me a few hundred dollars, if that. And so, at this point, it's really hard to judge what you should be taking. Do I go for this audition where it's way out in Virginia or Maryland, I'm going to be spending this much time going there, this much to get there, taking off work, missing work where I could be making money. Whereas I could be making connections here, potentially having people see it, so there are so many factors. And Actor's Center just doesn't have the big names, because once you're at that level of going to the Arena auditions and Signature, you don't need it anymore, people are calling you in. So, I think it's an awesome resource for young people starting out, but for people like me who-

Russ: Wanna move forward.

3: Yeah, wanna move forward, it's much harder. And I think it's hard to think of what could fill that space, 'cause some people, like Anne Veal and David Conison started a theatre company, which I think is great, and Caroline Angell started the Network Theatre Company, which is supposed to connect artists to opportunities and everything. I just went to see her show, 'cause I wanted her to remember me. And those sorts ofthings, I think our great, people who are experienced, who do have connections, starting their own projects, I think that is a really great way to bridge that gap. And staged readings with people that, like Kennedy Center page-to-stage, things like Rent at the Keegan are 81

awesome, because they bring people that are working and have worked higher up to work with new people, things like that. So those sorts of opportunities splashed in around the regular DC season, I think, are awesome. And something like Speakeasy I think is great, just events like that, that bring, not just necessarily actors, but anybody together, where you can meet people and make your own art, I think is awesome. But I don't really know of anything besides Actor's Center, that's like, "here's stuff for you to do, here's jobs, and here's workshops that you can take" which are great. Those things like workshops, it's like you gotta pay for them. I can't afford to take an audition workshop. So, yeah ... what was the question again?

Russ: I don't know, but we're gonna, 'cause you've mentioned communities multiple times, and getting a broader sense of how do would you defme community, and ... yeah, just go with that first. What is a community?

3: Oh gosh, a group of people, I don't think it matters the size, really, all having common goals and doing different things, maybe career-wise, and different age groups and different ethnicities and backgrounds and everything, but all trying to create a group where they can live together in harmony, and share interests and help each other.

Russ: How do you think that applies to the artist community?

3: I think it applies in a major way. I think art is all about connection, so you have to stay connected to your community. If you're not involved in your community, why are you producing art, who are you producing it for, who are you performing for, who do you want to reach? So I think community is so important for artists, I don't think one can exist without the other.

Russ: Okay, I'm going to flip this now, because based on something you said earlier, especially how some arts organizations tend to be a little more focused on the people they choose, to have worked for them rather than staying open to, like with open calls, to a broader sense of community? Do you feel like there's a give and take with how much you can serve the artist community, depending on the size or the reputation?

3: Sure, I think there's theatres ... non-profit theatres, or even profit theatres, they're trying to stay alive, they're trying to be able to stay afloat year after year after year financially, ultimately it comes down to fmances. So if they're going to be able to higher people that can bring more money into the theatre, bigger names, then they're going to do that because, like Arena, yes they want to serve the artist community, but they need to have other people besides artists paying for tickets. So, they're going to try to get the best, in their mind, and they don't want to waste the time and resources, energy and money, looking at people whom they probably wouldn't cast anyway. So they're going to try and have the most efficient way of casting people and that "a" is probably people they already know and already have worked with and "b" other people, other equity people, professionals, real professionals. And so yeah, it does take away from the community, I 82

think. But I think there's different goals there; the goal is to produce the best theatre you can, the most successful theatre, so that might mean visually successful, might mean musically, amazing dancing, you know, the most entertaining thing possible. Whereas, we might just be trying to do something new and different and innovative and creative-

Russ: As an artist.

3: Yes, something that might speak to not that demographic, not the upper/middle class patrons that they would normally be serving, low-income people who never see theatre, or would never get the opportunity to see theatre, otherwise. People from other cultures, theatre for education, and all sorts of other avenues and reasons why you do art, that doesn't necessarily fit with the normal, traditional theatre. I was going to say something, and I forgot what it was, oh. And then, if you're talking about young artist, part of it is a lot of people are trying to make art that's not necessarily that good, or most people don't think that they're that good. And there's going to be that section of this community that is not gonna get employed. And so it is just like any other profession, you know if you're into marketing, but you're just not that great of a marketer, you might not necessarily get a job. So it's like you want to be open to everybody, but you can't necessarily cater to everybody. Just like at AU, is what I think. They think you want to educate everybody, but not necessarily people that this profession isn't necessarily for them. But then when we talk about education, and with conservatory, which I hate, is when they just cast their students and then they don't accept people that are very talented because they've already filled the white girl role, and the big girl role, and the Asian girl role, and all that stuff. So it's-

Russ: Are you talking about Glee?

3: But Glee is a television show, it's not a school. But Glee is great, because everybody can watch it, everybody can enjoy it. But when it comes to community, everybody has a different goal, and there's something for everybody, in the small theatres and the black boxes and the dance shows and the comedy improvs and that sort of thing. Hopefully, everybody's needs get met, but I think that when it comes to money, and that's ultimately what will keep things afloat, certain things sometimes don't get acknowledged, though they should.

Russ: So, we've talked about the artist community; what other communities would say you're a part of?

3: Oh my gosh, I don't even know. I guess the community of recent graduates from college, just the young demographic oftwenty-two to thirty people, and what our interests are, and Americans I guess? And also, I'm very interested in the rest of the world, besides America, so I think I'm part of that community as well, just that young people that are interested in how America affects the rest of the world, and how we can use our knowledge to help the rest of the world. And, I'm sure you'll agree with me on 83

this, because this is why you're so awesome at what you do, and you're so passionate about it, is that whole, cheezy AU motto, what is it? "Actions" ... what is it? C'mon, you know it. Oh, "Ideas into Action, Action, into Service." I know that's the cheesiest thing ever, but I believe it. And I don't admit that I believe it, so much, because sometimes I like to be all sarcastic about AU, but it's true, and it has always been at the certain of why I perform, besides just liking performing and loving it, and not being able to do anything else. But it's so important to use our passion, no matter what it is, even if you're an architect or a scientist or whatever, but to use your skills and what you're good at and what you're passionate about, for the betterment of your community, and the world-wide community, as whole. And that's why I went to Ghana, and that's why I'm gonna hopefully continue to do other things besides just trying to act and make money for it. And I think a lot of people in DC do that, and do it very well, and that's definitely something I hope- that community I want to be a part of, that's the community that I'm really passionate about.

Russ: Yeah, with Ghana, you said you had done awareness work.

3: Yeah. It was so cool, it was a program called the Sankofa Center for African Dance & Culture, and this man named Ronnie Shaw, he was a dancer, an actor from Orange County, California, and he went to Berkley? And he just decided that he wanted to go and create a program that used African dance to educate people. So he hooked up with a group of West African drummers and dancers, and he takes volunteers every few months to go and live in a home-stay. And we take traditional dances and we turn them into dance dramas. So it's like if somebody came to your elementary school to teach you about AIDS or about drugs or something, we were doing this about AIDS. So we do a traditional Gotta dance, and it's no speaking, but boys & girls, and we'll somehow tum the dance moves into telling a story of guy meets a girl, they wanna have sex, the guy doesn't want to use a condom, the girls says no, the guy goes to the next girl, she doesn't use a condom, they get AIDS and they die, that sort of thing, and so a couple of different stories. And so we spend one week with a school, we go to a different school every week, and we'll just perform for them the first day and get them all excited and everything. And the second day, we'll use flash cards and you speak all in English, 'cause English is their official language. And we teach them all the different ways you can get HIV, so the five doors that HIV goes through, the five fluids that carries it, three main ways you can get it, and three ways you can prevent it. And we perform the dances again to reinforce it, and then we bring them up to do a quiz game, where we review, and then we put them in the dance and they participate and they get all excited. And they're amazing students, and they remember everything and they're so insanely smart and they're so well-behaved. And then the fourth day we'll go to a village and we'll do, essentially, the same thing, but just on a broader scale, and we'll speak in the native language. Well, I didn't, but other people did. And educate villages, which was really good, because a lot of these kids had already heard the message before. But a lot of these villagers were way out, rural, didn't go to school, didn't really know, they all have a lot of kids, and then we do HIV testing, too. So, Ghana's numbers are pretty low, comparatively; so we got to see what the real 84

impact was in, which villages needed more of this kind of stuff. And, it was just a great way of connecting with them, and getting them interested in what we had to say, as opposed to a bunch of white people showing up and being like, "hey listen to us."

Russ: Right, doing it through your art.

3: Yeah, I think it's like the same thing ifyou brought a breakdance group in to aU Street school, or a Southeast school, or something, a way to connect with them on their level, something that they enjoy, and teaching them. It's a great way to earn their respect, and to get them to listen, that's the most important thing. Just using art as a tool, for teaching.

Russ: And I guess, using arts to educate and advocate for other things, as far as advocacy, how would you define advocacy?

3: I'm, like, a year out of school, dude. I haven't thought about vocab in forever. Advocacy, um ... speaking on behalf of the cause you believe in, or somebody that can't speak for themself, or trying to spread a message of something that wouldn't necessarily be heard otherwise; campaigning for a cause on behalf of something. Is that right, let's have a dictionary?

Russ: No right or wrong answer, like I said, this is about describing how people functionally think about it. With that being said, how would you then think that arts advocacy would define itself, or how would you define it?

3: How would you define arts advocacy? I think it's either advocating for an art, or using art to advocate for something, or using art to advocate for art, any combination of the three. I think art is one of the most powerful means of communication, and it's so subliminal, we don't necessarily realize that we are seeing art all the time, like in television. I mean, television is still art, movies are still art, commercials are still art, in a way. So I think, and we're such a visual culture, and so using those means of communication to make people aware of something. So whether it's that campaign to get people to stop smoking, the one with all the bodybags, I mean, that's art, that's extremely creative. And that certainly makes people stop and notice what's going on. And we're so ingrained in our culture, we're tuned into our iPod or Blackberry, or even if you don't have an iPod or a Blackberry, to some street sign, or street billboard; you don't notice so much going around you. So I think to have Arts Advocacy, even if it's not necessarily widely accepted, if you had belly dancers suddenly appearing out of nowhere, people notice things like that. And so I think no matter how much we have to fight to keep art going, I think it's so necessary to keep it happening, and it will always happen, 'cause art is so vital, whether so many people don't accept it, it's part of our lives, no matter why. It will always survive, no matter how much of a death rattle we have, it will always be there, even if Broadway is all terrible movie remakes, art will still be around.

Russ: So, would you say that there's- I don't want to lead, but...do you still feel like 85

there's a lot that the general population, while everyone pretty much encounters art on some level, there's still a lot to inform them about supporting art, or what it really means, about the value of art?

3: Yeah, I think that it's extremely necessary, art is extremely necessary. And with everyone like, "the way the economy is", I hate that phrase, "today's economy". If you keep saying that, the economy will stay crappy. But art is not number one on the list of things you have to pay for, and never will be; you need food, you need to pay your rent, you need to pay your taxes, you need to pay your insurance, pay for your car, all that stuff before you can pay for art. So if you're broke, and you're on welfare, you're not going to see a Broadway show, you're not gonna go see a dance performance. But I think in that sense, especially people with children, I think it's so important to understand the connection between participating in art, whether it's visual art, music, dance, whatever, and how that helps your mind grow. I think that basic statement is so important, and not everybody realizes it. They're like, "oh, our school's failing, so we'll cut the music program." You're accessing another part ofyour mind, when you're playing the trumpet, or when you're playing the piano, or when you're even thinking of playing the piano, you're accessing another part of your mind. And that is enhancing those neuron connections, and it'll help you remember your history terms later, and I think colleges acknowledge it, but colleges have the money to acknowledge it, and that's why they're like, "ifyou were in whatever extracurricular activities, that's great." But when it comes to the public sector, and public schools, and I went to a really overcrowded high school and it was really underfunded and our arts budget I think is way, way less than when I was there, it's just really hard to watch schools and young children not get the benefits that we got when we had it. So I think simple messages like that, the effect of art education on your actual success as an adult, is so important. And just because, the thing about America is like "we're so great, we're such a diverse culture, yay for us" and we have so much going on, but we're such a huge country, and we always end up having to cater to the lowest common denominator. And that's why Obama can't necessarily can't get his things past, because there's all these other people that don't necessarily even believe in what they're saying, but they have to appeal to these constituents who are ... brainwashed by Fox news and blah blah blah blah blah. And I'm not trying to put Democrat, Republican, whatever, but I'm just saying we always have to end up going to this lowest common denominator, and that denominator does not like art. They like McDonald's and they like sports and they like cars and they like just the most basic needs, and they don't, urn ...

Russ: Want more.

3: Yeah, they don't desire any sort of enlightenment. And that's, I think, something that we can also fight against. 'Cause when you think of art, a lot of people think like, "Oh, Opera" and dancing and violins-

Russ: Like it's a luxury. 86

3: Yeah, exactly, and it's a luxury and I don't relate to that. And so if we can somehow bring art to the masses, in a way where they don't see what we're doing, it's more something· like Glee that can appeal to everybody, but it's still art, and it's really high art, and some of these people are amazingly, well-trained people, like Lea Michelle, that sort of thing. So, I don't want to say American Idol, but things like Glee, where you can get it to the masses and people can appreciate it, and people can appreciate that sort of work ethic and artistic talent and creativity, and seeing that and seeing like, "well, if they didn't have music education, art education, and arts when they were kids, they wouldn't be doing that." So, I way to bring it to the normal population who aren't artists, it's hard to do that, but I think the more we work at it, the way we fine-tune everything, there are certain ways, and I think Glee is a big example of that. And we just gotta keep working, pushing at it; it's a long uphill battle.

Russ: Do you feel, part of that battle is actually against, and we have some of these organizations which have made it and they're established, but then they get to a point where it becomes about the bottom line-

3: Mmm, like Broadway.

Russ: Right. But as artists we want to be new and innovative, and give experiences that enlighten, and I mean there are companies out there that focus on that. Do you think ... emphasis is in, this probably a trick question, but is it the audience or is the arts organization that's responsible for supporting the art, as far as cultivating the appreciation for it?

3: Oh my geesus.

Russ: Which came first the-

3: Chicken or the egg, yeah. The audience or the arts organization-

Russ: 'Cause at some point, especially, just to clarify, before the theatre made it, they started in a, whatever, in a warehouse, whatever. They had a smaller audience which grew and grew and grew, and at some point, did they just give up whatever values they might've started out with, because they're like, "we need to pay for this building", or is it possible to grow and grow and grow and actually come up with a new model for support?

3: I think certain people have done that really, really well. Look at Disney and the Lion King; that is insanely popular, and it is one of the most creative things I've seen in my life.

Russ: Anything local? 87

3: Oh, like DC?

Russ: Yeah, I mean, no that was a good example.

3: I think DC puts on amazingly good things, like Arena stage does amazing things, and Signature, and I just saw Violet at Kensington and that's community theatre, and I thought they did a great job; and it was only ten bucks, it was really good. I think the artists needs its audience, so they do what they think they have to do to stay alive, and if they have to water down the material a little bit, to have people come, then it might be a necessary sacrifice, to hopefully maybe produce something better, later. And that's a big thing with any performer, you kind of have to whore yourself out to get work, and that's not really artistic. Like me, I'm obsessing over what I'm going to wear and how my hair's going to look, compared to the five other girls that I'm auditioning against for this show, when I'm hoping that they'll look past that to my actual talent. And that's the hard thing with American culture, it's so much about looks, and so much about the presentation and the visual aspect and how it feeds into our image of what we want to see, they don't really see the art behind it all; like, look at Gossip Girl, that's such a piece of crap.

Russ: I haven't even seen it.

3: Neither have I, I've seen commercials for it and I'm just like, "oh my god, kill me before I have to watch that." But those people are actors, and I'm sure they're thrilled to be on that show, making a lot of money, but I wouldn't really call it art or anything-

Russ: It's entertainment.

3: Yeah, it's entertainment. Yeah, that's the thing, art verse entertainment, it's a big thing. And I think once radio and TV and film were invented, it's where the theatre got screwed; and that's where the theatre how to start reevaluating what it was going to do to stay alive, and that's why American Idiot is now the number one Broadway show... don't even get me started on that.

Russ: And don't get me wrong, I love Green Day.

3: Well, me too, I loved them before they sold out and made a Broadway musical. Broadway's selling out and Green Day's selling out, what's going on here. But, I don't know, I think technology and just the future is responsible for theatre having to reexamine its values a little bit. At the same time, I think the artist and the audience are both responsible, but you can't really blame the audience, 'cause they're going to do whatever they want to do, they're gonna go to what is the most entertaining for them. So, I think you're always going to have to rely on the generosity of your patrons, just like any non-profit's gonna have to rely on the generosity of patrons that believe in what you're doing. And, as an artist, you just have that much bigger of a challenge to keep reinventing yourself, and keep being more creative, and use that, that oppression to make you rise up 88

and be a better artists, like Brecht would say, and use it to make you that more passionate about what you do, because it's that much more precious to you.

Russ: So you had mentioned something about auditioning, and how are you going to stand out from the four others. And it seems to be an very interesting dichotomy, because on one hand we're talking about this artist community, but that relationship to other artists completely changes from audition to actually getting cast, and how do you feel? Like, how do you viscerally feel about other artists when you're in an audition waiting to go in, versus when you're on the stage together because you actually all got cast?

3: Oh my god, well you're always in love with your cast, hopefully you have a good cast, that's generally the goal, is to have a great cast, and you're all there, you have a mutual goal, and you're all talented, passionate, you all love each other, probably all in love with each other. But when you're in an audition room, you know, I try to be friendly, and I have met great friends auditioning, actually. Because there's some really awesome people that you meet auditioning, but there's some other people that are just like, "who are you, oh my god, I never want to see you ever again in my life." And it's especially, and I'm sure you have a completely different experience, you're like blasian male dancer guy, where I'm this white girl-

Russ: You'd be surprised.

3: Yeah, we probably have similar, but for different reasons. So, I don't know, because I don't have that many girl actress friends, I have a lot of girl actress acquaintances. But you and Vishal are probably one of the only people I talk to about auditions, and things like that, because I don't feel competitive with you. Vishal's like my dad, and I'm like, "what do I do, when's the next audition?" Whereas other girls that I graduated with at AU, I would never talk about that with; "a", because I'm not that great of friends with them, because I didn't really like them, but "b" ... unless you're really tight with them, it's hard to let them know about the next audition coming up. And I usually try to be the bigger person, build good karma, and try and do that anyway, but it depends on the role and the audition, and it depends on how actual friends you are with them; if you're real friends, it doesn't matter, but acquaintances and other people who I feel don't deserve things that they get, my community is not with them. But this recent audition, I'm auditioning at Toby's for Rent, that's the thing I've been talking about, where they actually pay. The three girls I'm up against for Mimi, two of them, I think are awesome, and I'm like, "I'm shocked that I'm in this group with you right now, like, I'm so proud of myself that I, like, made it this far." I don't think I'm gonna get it, but I'm happy, I don't know the one girl, but these other two girls I think are both great, and one girl just friended me on Facebook, 'cause we saw each other at another audition, so I would be thrilled if she, well I wouldn't be thrilled, but I'd be happy for her if she got it, 'cause I think she deserves it; and this other girl I think was totally fierce, and I was like, "wow, you should totally get this." So, comes to auditioning, I think, unless you're a horribly bitter, just mean angry person, you should try to make the best of audition situation, and 89

try and be friendly, and that's a great way to make connections; because if you act like a butt-head, people will see that, and people will talk about you, and people will know later, when they see you, or whatever, whether it's another actor or the person working the audition or a director, but then once you get in the show, it's just like butter, it's just wonderful. And hopefully you'll stay friends with those people, and you'll help each other, and yeah ...

Russ: So, we really are all a little bi-polar to some extent.

3: So, bi-polar, it's so sad, 'cause yeah, you're in this community of people you're competing with, it sucks. Yeah, it's really hard.

Russ: Just to wrap things up, and thank you for your time, 'cause we mentioned non profit and for profit theatre, but a lot of the work in the area is done with non-profit organizations. And how much did you know about non-profits through your training and education, what a non-profit is, what is a mission statement, that kind of thing?

3: Yeah, I know a lot about it from just where I grew up, because the community theatre I worked with was a non-profit, and I interned at another theatre that was a non-profit and got to know the ideas behind it and what their goals were and how they operate and everything, and really liked it. I was at one point thinking, I would like to do marketing for a non-profit or whatever, you know. And I still would love to do that, and that's why I did the blog thing, because that's still something that I like to do. And AU, definitely, you're required to see certain shows during classes, and you're encouraged to participate in other community events, and other non-profit theatres, what they do. So, yeah, I knew a lot about non-profits just through my own.. .'cause that's how I got started in theatre; they're great, non-profits are great.

Russ: The second part of that question is: how often, and at what point in the process, like when you hear about an audition for theatre to a show, at what point do you check out their mission statement.

3: Oh my gosh, that's not something that I do consciously, I might see it if I'm checking out the website or whatever. But most of the theatres that I've been auditioning for, I kinda knew about them. But I get their emails, and I know what their missions are, like Shakespeare and Arena, and they're like, "we're building this, and we're trying to do this." But that's not something I go for consciously, but I try to-

Russ: Have a feeling of it.

3: Yeah, get the feeling of what the theatre does, and what they're all about, kind of thing. And each one's so different, Arena's so different from Signature different from Synetic, different from Woolly. And ifthere's something that I really enjoy what they do and connect with the kind of art that they make, I try to get in with them, but that's really 90

hard, if they're a really good theatre. It's like, "hey". But yeah, is that it?

Russ: I think that's it.

3: Oh my gosh.

Russ: Thank you.

3: Sure.

Russ: And that is the end of this interview.

Subject 4

JR Russ: So, at what age did you get involved with the performing arts?

Subject 4: In a professional capacity or... ? I was doing shows in elementary school. I was drafted into performing in front of my family by my older sister, which for most people is a silly little short thing, but her shows tended to go on for an hour, hour and a half, something like that, had acts and intermissions, so ... what're you going to do.

Russ: So about how old were you?

4: Either five, for doing it in front of family and friends, or ten, for public doing it.

Russ: And how did you continue to be involved as you continued on through high school.

4: Well, performing for the most part? A lot of musicals, as opposed to straight shows; I auditioned for stuff, but if I didn't get in, then I worked in technical theatre aspects. I was not very good about going to see shows elsewhere, outside of our program. I didn't realize until after I'd finished with high school, that that was something that people did, go see other people's shows. So it wasn't part of my habit, at that point.

Russ: And were you just involved extracurricularly, or did you actually take performance classes?

4: Oh, well I took classes as they were offered, in high school. Middle school, I think .. .! think during middle school, I was probably only involved, well not only, but the primary reason I was involved in theatre was girls. I auditioned for Annie when I was in 8th grade, or something like that, specifically because I'd been talking with this girl after school, and she was going to audition, so I went and auditioned with her. So I got Daddy Warbucks, and she got Grace, who is his secretary or love affair, or whatever it is. I remember her counseling me, that they'd call me later that evening ifl was going to be in 91

it, and if I didn't get a call, that meant I probably wasn't going to be in a show. And that's the only stuff! remember her saying that day, 'cause I was just looking at her.

Russ: Interesting.

4: So it worked out well. And then, from that point on, I think I made a point of doing every single show through, well that was the end of middle school though, through high school and then after that, just show after show after show after show.

Russ: And then onto college?

4: Well I hit a point where I went from high school to doing theatre during the summer, and after the summer of my senior year, my plan had been to take a year off, and what I ended up doing was theatre. And before I knew it, the year was up. So I started taking classes at Montgomery College, doing Creative Writing, which is something I'm very passionate about, that eats large amounts of time, just huge expanses. And from there, I was dabbling around in trying to find classes that I could take that would be interesting to me, and I took a costume class in the theatre department. And that sucked me right back into doing theatre, not just outside of school, but with all of me, all day long, every day. And this was two thousand and two. So I had gone from doing community theatre, and working, and taking classes, to taking classes in theatre, directly into doing theatre, and stuff that was theatre related, piano classes, chorus, voice lessons, theatre classes, everything else went out the window, and that was all that mattered for the next forever. And then at some point, I realized that I'd actually stopped taking classes, and was just doing shows, both at school and outside of school at the same time, so that I was doing two or three shows at a time, but had, in effect, stopped learning outside of that specific aspect of life experience. And that's when I realized that I needed to get the hell out of there, and finish up my degree. So I did it, in eight months or something crazy like that.

Russ: Your degree in...

4: Oh, I got an associates degree in theatre performance. I had wrestled, for a really long time, with this preconceived notion I had that success in theatre meant running away to New York and not finishing your education. And the more I talked with people who actually knew what they were talking about, as opposed to whatever dumbasses I'd started off on my journey with, I realize that there's an important component of skill and talent, but then there's also technique; and I didn't have that. So as far as you can get while winging it, that's what I did first. And then I went back and, uh... every so often derail myself, again, into just doing a whole lot of theatre, and not really pushing myself outside of my limits. I think right now I'm in a phase where I'm going for projects that are outside of my comfort zone, but still things that I feel I can do, but I learn so much that I'm exhausted at the end of every day, and its great.

Russ: So, how would you describe your occupation. 92

4: I am a performance artist. I don't like the word "actor" because that's not necessarily the only thing I do, and I lot people seem to think that actors are stupid or flighty people, and I do know some people who are actors, so I can't entirely disagree with that. But I would say that I'm a performance artist, because I do other stuff that's not specifically staged ... work.

Russ: So what would you describe as a typical work week, for you?

4: A work week? Oh, that's a good one.

Russ: Yeah.

4: Um.. .lately, in life, I don't that there is a typical... typical is something that doesn't come up, in my life. I spent a little bit of time doing shows with a whole lot of equity actors in them, and they seem to have a set schedule, "this happened at x o'clock, and after so-and so number of minutes we're gonna stop and do this, and at the end of the day, you go home, you let go of it, you read your lines, but you let go of it, and the next day you come back, and we start over again, and continue and work through the next chunk, and at the end of the day you go home." That's not where I'm at now. I'll say that typical for me right now is most Mondays, I have the day off. And the rest of that is, I'm going to show up, and right now I do a show in the weekdays, every morning. I get there an hour and a half ahead of time so I can warm-up and do a fight call, and whatever other preparatory stuff I need to do, check my props, check equipment, make sure everything is in working order, spend time getting back in touch with the actors I haven't seen in a whole twelve hours, and then I do a show. I think the most typical thing about my day, or the most reliable thing, is that at the end of the show, I have to put everything away and set it up for the next one. That's reliability and the consistency in my life, is that I have to reset everything for the next show. The shows, anything could happen, theoretically, within the confines of what's quote-unquote supposed to happen, but the one thing I'm sure of everyday is traffic, and then resetting for the next show, whether it's in the same place, or showing up somewhere else, to do another project.

Russ: So, when you do manage to have free time, in your free time, what do you tend to do?

4: I think this is all my free time, this is my time, I make the conscious choice to do this, and I'm not doing this because of the money, "haha", not that there is no money in it, but I don't feel that I do this and when I finish with it, then I go what I really want to do; I think this is that.

Russ: Well, okay let me clarify the question.

4: When I'm not doing theatre. 93

Russ: Right.

4: Oh, okay. Oh, I don't know. Yesterday, I was .. .let's see, I woke up at the same time I wake up every morning, as if I was going to do a show. And instead of leaving my house, or, okay, showering and then brushing my teeth and getting food into my body and then leaving my house, I didn't do any of those things, and I just played on my computer all day long until about eleven o'clock at night, at which point I realized that my approach to everything is just allow myself to be consumed by it and then plop out the other end, and go "oh, right, sleep" or "food, oh... yes, I have to call that purpose, mmm ... damnit." And then I go to sleep, and wake up the next morning and it's all different again.

Russ: What about moments when you have recreational time with other people?

4: I show up at parties, sometimes. Sometimes, I will show up late to a party, or to a movie, I can show up late to a movie. I run, or exercise, which is not really the whole free time thing, that to me is part and parcel of the whole process of staying in condition to do the best that I can do, because I'm obsessed with it. I was just talking with someone the other day about having non-theatre friends, and I think that I have some, and they're all people that used to do theatre but stopped to be normal people.

Russ: Normal people?

4: I think that's how they look at it.

Russ: Okay.

4: Yeah, there's no real scheduled free time in my life. It may be I have downtime and I do laundry, and then I eat.

Russ: So most of the time, when you do socialize with other people, it's usually in a theatre context, or a stage performance?

4: I would say that ninety percent of the time, it's legitimately tax-deductible because I'm working on a theatre project with somebody, or an art project, helping someone design something or figure out what they're going to do for their work or mine. And when I'm not eating, I'm usually talking to somebody about something artistically oriented. I would be surprised if there's more than ten or fifteen minutes of my day that is not either personal hygiene, sleep, or arts related. I don't think that you can really get what you want, out of what you're doing, if you let yourself be mucked up with all this other stuff.

Russ: So, again, the conversations you have when eating with people and talking about their work, is it in a production you're directly involved with, or, like you have the shows at Adventure, but then when you are talking about projects or helping people out- 94

4: It's either theatrical projects or things, those are the kind of conversations I have. When I'm not doing a show, people who are not involved in theatre or the arts ask me about theatre and the arts, so that's what I talk to them about, or some movie.

Russ: So, as a professional artist, do you feel like your needs are met, whatever that might mean?

4: I was gonna say, "what're my needs?" I don't, ah... my needs ...

Russ: Just to-

4: Do I feel satisfied?

Russ: No, as far as, and I hate to use the word "practical", but needs such as anything from earning a living wage, to having health insurance.

4: There can always be more food and more security, but they're not high priorities for me.

Russ: Really?

4: That's awful to say.

Russ: Is that because most of the places you work don't offer that?

4: Ah.. .l think that I'm lucky enough to be involved in the kind of work that stresses physical health and taking care of myself as part of what it is that I do, so I don't have the opportunity to really indulge in or develop new bad habits. I'm also lucky in that I have a support system of family or friends that go, "oh, have you eaten recently? When's the last time you went to the dentist? Don't you think you should schedule an appointment?" And I have health insurance and stuff like that, I have car insurance; I think if I didn't have those things, I might have a different perspective on how much money I ought to be making, with what I'm doing.

Russ: And you have insurance through?

4: My family.

Russ: Okay.

4: Yeah. Otherwise, I'd probably have a much bigger issue with going, "well I should, I should try and get my equity card," and not worry so much about it being selling out or having to deal with people who are not as committed to projects because they're in it for 95

the money. Not that equity actors are necessarily in it for the money, but...there's a different kind of art involved, I would say.

Russ. Hypothetically speaking-

4: I don't know if you answered your question or not.

Russ: Yeah you did. If you didn't, I would've asked you to clarify.

4: Okay.

Russ: Hypothetically, ifyou didn't have that kind of insurance with your family, and if you want to express your concern about this, do you feel like there are people or organizations that support the arts, that care about the arts, that you could go to to-

4: In all honesty, I think I'd write a show about it, and then find somebody to let me perform it. That would be how I'd express it. I know that there are bureaucratic channels, or conversations that I could have with people, I know that it's possible to do the legwork to make enough money, either through the arts or doing things outside of that with the intent of doing what I want to do and not dying-

Russ: Well, who would be some ofthe people, sorry to interrupt, you said you know there are people, channels you could go to-

4: Well, there's always other kinds of work that I could get, projects I could pick up, as opposed to be solely focused on one or two or three projects at a time, I could pick up some random film work, extra work, to have enough money to get insurance. Obviously, I could also get a quote-unquote real job that has insurance benefits, but then I wouldn't have the time to do the things I need and want to do.

Russ: What about, for an example, I'm not sure you've heard much about it or kept up with it, but with some of the reforms for health care, one of them was-

4: Oh yeah, through employers.

Russ: No, not even through employers, for individuals who might not have steady employment, to have healthcare.

4: The government insurance stuff. I think if it were an issue, it's something that I would explore. But luckily it's not, so I voted in favor of it for the people who need it, and have actually been drawn into conversations with it-

Russ: Other actors? 96

4: Yes, other actors, artists, or people who are aspiring to be part of that field, I think it's something to be supported. But I'm lucky enough to not need that myself.

Russ: And even if you don't need it, you said you've engaged in conversations with other people and you support it.

4: Yeah, I run into people who think that it's not something that the government should be providing, that it should come out of taxpayers' benefits, and I am sorry that there are so many unenlightened people functioning as a part of so-called civilization or society.

Russ: And you take an opportunity to enlighten them.

4: I, I do .. .I do.

Russ: Effectively?

4: I mean, you can't ever really win an argument, but you cari give somebody a good stem tongue-lashing, ifthey're supporting some sort of moronic point ofview. You can provide someone with information in the hopes that they will put two and two together and realize that the greater good is more important than an individual's needs, often ... especially in the case of health care. Hello, health care.

Russ: And you said you voted for it. Have you-

4: Or would support it, I'm not a member of-

Russ: Okay, I guess voting the wrong's word. Did you express your concerns, support for it to members of-

4: Yes, yes, yes, did the email thing, did the letter with the whole paper deal.

Russ: And how did you find out about that.

4: I think that I was emailed by somebody and received chain messages from a couple of other people, from Facebook and email, I might've heard something from you about it, although I don't recall; I haven't actually heard that much from you lately. But, nevertheless, I would say that the arts is in someways an activist friendly community, so when something that affects artists or people as a species, or community comes up, I'm in a good place to hear about it, and have the avenue ... towards resolution. Somebody will say, hey you've gotta email this person and tell them how you feel about x, y, z.

Russ: So, would that fit under what you understand advocacy to be?

4: I think that's a part of it. 97

Russ: How would you define advocacy? Not just one definition.

4: Without using the word advocate?

Russ: Yes, please.

4: I think if you feel strongly about a cause, then ... you are, if not outright obligated, but there's some sort of moral or personal drive to help others access information, so they can make their own choice, or guide them in the right direction. And that may be your family and friends, people that you're familiar with, co-workers, or people on the street, total strangers, people you would never see in person. But if there's something that is important to you, that you are willing to take a stand for, and take that extra effort to make sure that it becomes a reality, or ceases to be one, I think that's advocacy.

Russ: Jumping off from that, how would you define arts advocacy?

4: In favor of arts, or as a broad-

Russ: Whatever that term might mean to you.

4: Oh. For me, arts advocacy, at least on a personal level, is usually more about sharing what I'm doing, the people that I know what I'm involved with, upcoming projects, trying to remind people about how important the arts are to our culture, heritage, personal identity, the positive benefits of experiencing it, being involved with it as a participant, as an audience member. And should somebody find, for whatever reason, that it's not something that they find personally important to them, I don't know that I would argue with someone, but I would certainly talk with them about it and defuse it, it's kind of like a bomb, if someone is anti-art. For me, I wanna go in there and try and figure out what it is that has biased someone against it, see if something that I share, some sort of sentiment in there that somehow makes sense to me, as someone who is absolutely arts infused in life, and express either things that they might find interesting to them or ways they can get involved themself, if that's what's missing, if it's because they don't like watching other people, or viewing other people's work, or listening. Sometimes it may be their own voice isn't being heard. I think that arts advocacy, to me, is .. .it's like the cause but not .. .I guess, it's important to me to know that there are people out there who need to be able to express themselves, and may need help in doing so, or help in their day-to-day life, while they're doing this. And I would assume, because it's not actually a label that I run into a whole lot, "this is an arts advocacy ... ", arts advocacy would be things that are in favor of the arts, ways to support the arts and artists.

Russ: Do you feel like there's still, this is partly a rhetorical question, but do you feel like there's still a lot the majority of society perceives, with regards to arts and artists, that is still kind of outdated or wrong, or non-productive as far as- 98

4: I don't know that perceptions can be wrong. I think that there's a lot of people who may have negative or misguided impressions about what artists or theatre or people who feel the need to express themself, what that is, if it's not something that they understand or that they're interested in.

Russ: Can you give an example?

4: People who love sports, and think that theatre has some sort of negative connotation attached with it, or that going to a museum and seeing something that somebody else used to express themself five hundred years ago, is less valuable or less important, than the ability to watch the next Capitols' game, or to watch the NCAA final, or whatever it is. People who feel that funding for the arts is not as important as roads, or. ..l don't know, tax benefits for a large corporation that wants to move into an area to provide jobs, as if there aren't other jobs out there, as if it's not a vibrant or important part of the economy, to entertain. Even if it's not entertaining to them, it is to other people, who spend plenty of money on it. They could spend mote.

Russ: As far as funding, you mentioned you already participated with email campaigns and contacting legislators, one annual one that Americans for the Arts does is the push to refund the NEA every year, and how familiar are you with that kind of process, or its relation to the work that you do?

4: The last thing that I really remember about people trying to get a push for NEA funding was when they were messing with Sesame Street and Public Broadcasting, which was, okay, a long time ago; it was probably early Bush-era, maybe ... end of, it wasn't a Clinton thing, I'm not sure, but I know that at some point in the last decade, public radio was under serious attack for being slashed away by Newt Gingrich, or some other horned beast. And there was a broad campaign in this area, in my group of friends or people that I knew, family, whatnot, to make sure that everybody was very clear that funding for the arts needed to be there, that the National Endowment was important, that there were educational benefits, just a ritual in daily life for people that would be interrupted or destroyed if that funding wasn't there. I think .. .! would say that I wish that I had ... more information, or was in whatever that communication pipeline is, but beforehand, to know this is something that I should be spouting on about at a constant level, as opposed to, "oh gosh, oh gosh next tuesday is blah blah blah, write to Barbara Mcluskey and saver our Grover."

Russ: So you don't feel like there are places you can go to find-

4: I'm sure that there are, I don't necessarily know. I know for a fact that there are some people who go, "oh I could talk to him about this, but I'm sure that he's busy and can't show up" or- 99

Russ: Or even organizations? Specifically arts advocacy organizations.

4: I know that they are out there, I'm not actively involved, I don't show up to physical meetings.

Russ: There aren't too many, sometimes.

4: Then I'm not missing that much, I feel better. But it is, it's one of those things that kind of sticks in you, in those moments where you're sitting at a table with a bunch of people and talking about how so-and-so lost their job because there wasn't funding for it, or how "we'd love to do this project, but we're not going to find the money", or... theatre company xyz has to cut back the number of shows they're doing, this art installation is closing a week early, this studio time is too expensive, we can't finish the project, we can't do the project, we can't get this person to do that. That there's something impeding people from finishing their work that they have toiled away at for their life, people in situations like me, and I wish that I could do more to .. .l don't even know, soapbox about it, or get involved, write more letters; I don'reven know that I would have the time to do that, but - just having that information available to me would be neat.

Russ: Well, I could send you a couple links, but just so you know, the NEA is a misnomer in that most endowments you think of, there's a body of money that accrues interest and then -

4: Yeah.

Russ: But the endowment, they actually took out all of that, so every year, money has to actually be appropriated to fund it. And every year, they do a zero-line budget, or something like, in which, they're actually like, "we're not gonna"-

4: Zero-sum?

Russ Zero-sum. Or they say we're not gonna fund the NEA this year, and they actually have to vote to request funding.

4: Right, they have to say, "we're not gonna to fund it, you're not getting any money," and then people say, "oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, but we need this amount of money to keep this program going." "Oh, okay fine, well you can have half that." I'm sure that happens, it's not like there's a big pile of money sitting somewhere for the arts that the governments just keeping away from people on a yearly basis, it comes from somewhere.

Russ: Gonnajump a bit, 'cause you touched on art and community a bit, but what is your definition of community? Not just one, there could be a multiplicity of communities, different types of community. 100

4: Okay, community is a group of people that get together through some sort of communication medium, because of a shared experience or the desire for one.

Russ: Cool. That's your final answer?

4: That to me means what community is, yeah my final answer. I think they think that's overly broad, and that's just because I know a wide variety of groups that are definitely communities, and also absolutely different from each other in structure and design.

Russ: Like what?

4: Let's take two opposite ends of the spectrum, here. At some point in time, MySpace was definitely a community, there was a group of people who did that. And then it got cool, and it stopped being a quote-unquote community and became an application, again. When you lose that sense of belonging, of being a part of something, not a subculture, but to have this be these are the people involved, and I know fifteen percent of them or twenty percent of them, or I know somebody who knows somebody, and through this I know that I am a part of this community. When you lose that sense of belonging, that's when community stops or dissipates slowly.

Russ: So what communities would you say you're a part of?

4: So many, so many.

Russ: Name them.

4: I would say that I'm a part of the DC arts community. I'm definitely an online-gamer, that happens. Horticulture, as far as a name for, that's not necessarily it. I do musical theatre, which is almost subculture as opposed to community ... in some ways, not as much in others. You know, that's a tricky question, when I try and decide which communities I am a part of, and just stated for the record, "I'm a part of this community". But it's, I guess the sense of belonging is not necessarily something that I can... yeah, I don't know that I label communities, I just kind offind that I'm around a group of people and go, "oh yeah, that's this." And there are others that you can go, "oh yeah, I'm a member of that."

Russ: 'Cause you had mentioned, and this might-

4: A lot of them are theatre communities, a lot of what I do is theatre. I wouldn't say that I do 5K runs, or something like that, 'cause I don't, and I don't necessarily know that those people feel that they're in a community. I'm sure people who are really into athletics go "oh yeah, I'm a, I'm a member of the weight-lifting community" or something. I go, "well, I mean I do that, but that's not who I am, it doesn't defme me, it's something I'm interested in." It's somewhere that I go, or a group of people I contact, when that is the most important facet of my life in that point of time. 101

Russ: How much of how you understand some of what we've talked about with advocacy, community, have you come to know outside of any kind of educational experience with performing arts, or did you come to-

4: I'm sure that people gave me labels and definitions for stuff, but I wasn't listening. I really wasn't, which is sad, I know that, though. I've had conversations with people where I have felt that I had a very solid definition and understanding of a concept, and then had somebody in a ... someone that I would look up to and accept their perspective on things, say "well, this is actually 'a', and these traits are a part of'b"' And that happens, sometimes. Fallen afield, of the initial question, but...

Russ: So with advocacy and arts advocacy, do you feel..or even professionally, do you feel that there are mechanisms or people who let you know issues to be concerned about, or how to go about addressing those issues, where you've trained, where you've taken classes, where you work? Or is it pretty much, "'let's do the show"?

4: You mean issues with-

Russ: Like with healthcare reform, for one, or funding, as another.

4: I think that there are, there are community leaders, quote-unquote.

Russ: But any direct experiences you can-

4: With people saying, "hey, you need to be involved with it"?

Russ: As far as ones you've got through theatres you've worked with.

4: Yeah, yeah. From an educational perspective, it's like chairs of departments and things. Am I naming people, is that-

Russ: No, you don't have to name, I just wanna-

4: Chairs of departments, artistic directors are ... are flag bearers for, or standard bearers, for what is important to that specific insular or extended community, here are the things that are important to us, here's where you need to be to support this. Do they necessarily go, "you must get involved with health care reform?" No, but there are other people who have sent me an email, and go "hey, this doesn't apply to you, but it does apply to your friends. Get on it," to show support for the people learning or having some kind of connection to people whose projects are with theatres, or in cities, that I'm not in currently, go "oh, this is happening there, that's great, that's cool." And I have those connections, though distant and somewhat unloved that they are at present. But I would say that there are people who view themselves as being very strong advocates and, as a 102

result of that, take it upon themself to share with other people, either who they feel are in a position of influence or just are someone out there, who needs to hear this message. I know that there are people who run message lists or bulletin boards and stuff, that will contact me about stuff that's important, because they want me, specifically, to contact other people or to come to their aid.

Russ: And have you experienced that, as kind of, I mean you kind of mentioned arts leaders in various organizations, is that kind of-

4: It's not necessarily leaders. Sometimes, it's someone who has designated themselfto be that kind of town crier, or herald-

Russ: Within the production, or within that administrative-

4: Within the community. Specifically from a theatre perspective, that's a company manager role, or production manager, or an artistic director, or somebody who just likes getting involved with stuff. And that happens sometimes, too, there'll be a memoer of the cast who's, like, "oh man, everybody, you've gotta check this out" and they've always got a pamphlet or some flier from something that's going on.

Russ: You wouldn't say it's the norm, though?

4: No, I'd say that there are specific people who feel that that is their mission, and it is always those people who will do that. It's not every given day somebody else feels that this is the most important cause, there's five, ten, fifteen people, usually one or two per group, that will get out there and beat the bushes and say, "look, you've gotta be a part of this." Or, "please, god, somebody help us." It's consistently the same people who will say, "oh god, there's been an earthquake here, text blah-blah-blah-blah-blah to help." And then the next week, "oh god, there was another earthquake here," it's that kind of thing, not with earthquakes, necessarily, but there are those people. That's some level of advocacy, I think, they feel that there are enough people who are in contact with them at least in passing, that they touch enough other lives on a regular basis, that it is part of their mission in life to share this with people.

Russ: And how often, based on that experience, do issues with regards to arts and artists advocacy get shared.

4: I wanna say monthly, bi-monthly ... sometime seasonally. The middle of summer ain't a great time for that kind of stuff. I would say spring seems to be the big season for people going "holy crap, you gotta blah-blah-blah" and then everyone goes "whoa, whoa, yeah, you're totally right". Or the end of the fiscal year is another time when everyone's up in arms and crazy about stuff.

Russ: With the most recent issue, with DC and the whole DC theatre tax- 103

4: Yeah!! Yeah, that was interesting. I got an email about that from an artistic director, and then the next day I was forwarded something from somebody else. And I actually had that moment where I was like, "am I included on this list because they don't think I've seen this already? Do they feel that they are that connection for me?" Or am I included on this list because they feel that all these other people are part of that community, or their group, and so they're responsible for all of us? Or are they conscious of the fact that everybody is emailing everybody about it and they just wanna make sure that I got another copy of it, so that I go "oh crap, I gotta- oh wait, I'm not a DC citizen".

Russ: But you still work in DC.

4: Yeah. That was interesting. I got the same email forward to me from about fourteen different people and received mail to me that was not forwarded from about another six people, and had a couple of people who had called me about it and it came up in conversation in the dressing room and people were talking about it in the lobby, people were talking about it at some dinner I nad to be at. Then I had a phone call with - somebody who was in another city that was like "I can't believe DC is trying to tax theatre more", I'm like "I don't know that that's necessarily the whole story, but yeah." I'm sure Maryland is kinda happy about this right now, but I don't think DC is. Not that they would be happy to have somebody else taxing theatre, but going "well, can we somehow swing this to our advantage if DC has decided to ... screw the pooch on this one?"

Russ: So what do you mean you're not sure that's the whole story, do you know the whole story now?

4: I don't know that I have all the information that I would need to make an educated decision if I were a member of the DC Council. I am not, so I know that for me the decision is very clear: don't tax theatre. But I don't know that it's either "a" or "b" or "c", I don't know what the alternatives are, I don't know if they decided that they needed to keep some hospital open and so therefore they must tax theatre.

Russ: I think part of the thinking was, and I could be wrong-

4: I don't know if it's to serve a specific funding gap or what.

Russ: It is, but part of the thought with taxing theatre, I believe, is that there's still sometimes the perception that theatre is a luxury for wealthy people, and so we're taxing people-

4: This is the wrong city for that, except for a couple of companies. There are some expensive theatre companies out there that I could see taxing, and then they would have to tax everybody else, because you can't just go to Shakespeare. 104

Russ: But there's still that perception, regardless.

4: I think that some theatre in this city is a ll.!xury. I think that there are eighty dollar tickets, there are hundred and twenty dollar tickets, and I know because it's the world that I live in, that they're not getting rich off of that, well, not everyone is getting rich off that money, and that it's sure as hell not going to the actors all the time, but...there are shows that are, or companies that are patronized by people who can afford to pay another three dollars for the ticket, and still won't give a damn because half the reason they're going is because of the other people who are going to see the show. That is a facet of the DC theatre community, there are people who go to theatre, not because it speaks to them, but because they're supposed to. And I would say tax them and not other people, but that's not really an option, is it, and I don't know that that's the best way to tax it. I don't see why they can't accept the fact that the people who are paying a hundred and twenty dollars for that ticket, are also eating at a DC theatre friendly restaurant, they're probably getting drinks somewhere afterwards, they paid someone an exorbitant amount of money to park their car somewhere, or they took a taxi. I think these are all ways of generating income for the dty that would not be there ifthat person had not bought a ticket. If they're not going out that evening, maybe they're doing something else or maybe they're staying home, and if they're staying home, then all those places are not getting business. I think at the point that they are taxing theatre to make money off of that tax, they are misguided.

Russ: Right. Gonna jump, since you aren't a DC resident, but you do live in Montgomery County, and the Montgomery Council for the Arts & Humanities is a fairly active and very engaged one. How aware of you of their activities?

4: I don't hear nothin' about that. Not a word, not a peep. I have been doing theatre my whole life, for years at this point, and nobody from Montgomery County has emailed me, or called me, or sat down and chatted with me, or said "hey, we should talk"; I don't hear any of that. DC, I hear from.

Russ: You mean, as far as other Montgomery County residents.

4: I don't hear anything from any advocacy people involved in Montgomery County stuff at all, except for youth theatre projects. I mean, Wildwood Summer Theatre will go "hey, we need money, we're doing this. X, y, z is voting on something that effects us, we get some money from this, blah-blah-blah. Come out, show support, be here at x" but there's no grassroots campaign, there's no-

Russ: Adventure Theatre hasn't-

4: -no advocates, well Adventure Theatre is pretty much DC theatre, it's not-

Russ: But no, as far as funding, Montgomery County actually- 105

4: -yeah, I think in terms of where they are emotionally and from an advocacy perspective, Adventure Theatre looks at what's going on in DC in terms of what I've been asked to do, I'll show up for a showcase somewhere to show what kind of work is available, what kind of things can be presented to schools, but that's not the same as governmental funding, per se.

Russ: True, but when you do ask for funding, it can be an argument for support, 'cause with money love educating kids.

4: I think more of what I run into, or the things that people ask me to do, is about getting tickets, about filling the seats in a theatre, not so much about trying to get grants or funding for their program as a whole, I don't get tapped for that stuff yet. I'm sure it'll come.

Russ: So normally when you do get engaged in advocacy, it's because someone else has made you aware of what's goihg on, usually, or asked you take action, or participate, or-

4: In terms of governmental support?

Russ: Any support.

4: Yes. In terms of corporate stuff, I'll go after that. If it's about sponsorship on a corporate level or trade-in-kind or any of that, that's the kind of stuff that I'll go out there and go "hey Chick-fil-a, give us some damn chicken" or something. If there's a local business that does well in direct or some sort of abstract relation to the fact that they are located near a theatre where I'm doing a lot of work, I will walk up to them and go "hey, how are you. You like blah-blah-blah, don't you?" "Oh, yeah, yeah, we love you guys." "Oh, that's great!! Have you, you know, have you advertised, have you thought about...you know, are you, do you contribute in anyway, do you, you know, thought about a partnership with them in the past?" They'll go "well no, I haven't." I go "oh, well you should call this person." I'll do that. I don't necessarily go for the more politically involved stuff myself. That, I do wait for somebody else to say something.

Russ: Politically involved, meaning any kind of-

4: Governmental. When I say politically involved, I mean state, county, local government. Or federal.

Russ: With regards to arguments for support, most theatres in the area are non-profit, or most arts organizations, and as far as getting to know the non-profit world, how much have you learned on your own, or did your training in school, did they ever address what it means to work for a non-profit? 106

4: No, and they really ought to, because it's not as cut-and-dry as it might seem, and grants and funding from major donors or corporate sponsors or governmental structures are really important. It's not something that you need if you just want to be a dumb actor and do some shows and wait tables. But if you find yourself in a position, like I am gradually approaching, or have been in and not realized for a long time, I think that I am at a point in my career now, where it's beginning to be something that's more important to me, where I fmd that there's somewhere I want to go with the work that I'm doing, and I can't, then it becomes "okay, so something's gotta give, and it's not going to be me."

Russ: And you can't normally because of... funding?

4: Yeah, if it's a funding thing, ifl'm trying to do something that's not allowed on stage, god I hate that, the whole infringement on free speech thing, we're probably not talking about that here, but oh god. That'll get me right there, if it's ... some kind of civil violation ... that's not discussed, they don't talk about avenues for how you can get involved in theatre, they talk about the history of theatre, they talk about what to do, what not to do; how to audition. It's all about the commercialized aspect of theatre and where theatre has come from, not so much the day-to-day current reality of theatre, which is in part "hey, we need more money so that we can do this because stuffs expensive, or 'cause we need to eat." And the infrastructure's not touched on in a great level; they don't even talk with actors about how to file actors, which is something that comes up real damn quick once you're out of school or even if you're still in school and working, as a performer, as an artist, as an actor; it's not discussed, it's not something that the educational field, from my perspective, from my experience, goes "hey everybody, let's talk about this." I know that I was doing summer dinner theatre, at some point, and had somebody sit down with me and go "hey, look at all this stuff, this is really important. You should know how to do these tax papers, you should know that, you know, this is where this money comes from." It wasn't until I got on the other side ofthe table, from working as a dumb actor, and was part of the administrative end myself, that I went, "wait a minute, what? we, we, what? na... na-ah, no." And then you start to go, "right". It's not all about the ticket sales, or the advertising for the show, there's so much more involved, and it's not as if most theatre companies are paying their own way; they don't necessarily break even, it's not even a non-profit, it's a lose-money-in-a-big-way-over and-over kind of thing. There's a big difference between being a non-profit and hiring people because you've got money around because you're in good standing and you're up to date on your bills and there's fifty thousand dollars, and it might as well be three interns for this and one intern for that. Let's put some money into painting over something and spend a whole bunch of money on our sets. And we're not going to have a season, unless we get money to pay our actors, who we still owe money for the last show that we did. Who could that be? No, but the reality of it is, there's a lot of great theatre that goes on out there, a lot of really great work that's shitty theatre, that people care a lot about that you would never see if they didn't get money from an outside source because it's not profitable, because it costs, there are expenses, there are risks involved that nobody necessarily wants to pay for. And they don't tech you about that, it's not 107

discussed. You drop out of the bucket of education into the great wide world of theatre, and there's door number one, which is build up equity points and go off and we'll take care of this and do this and follow the rules, and then path number two, which is, but what if it's not about waiting tables and doing shows 'cause you love doing theatre and then getting drunk on the weekend and starting it all over the next week. What if it's not a job, if it's your life, who prepares you for that. As far as I know, nobody, until you go "urn ... so .. .I need to eat. How do I do that, where does that money come from, how do I schedule that in my day?" That's something that you learn from people who have been in that community, ah, there we go.

Russ: You had, at one point, mentioned the commercialization of the theatre process, as far as the audition, as far as how that kind of-

4: Kind of gotten progressively farther and farther to the left as I've gotten older, it's a scary thought, but, yeah.

Russ: Do you feel like, 'cause you also mentioned at one point liow there's theatre you would like to do, but it's not allowed so you need to find a way to do it, do you feel like the commercialization has affected the content of theatre.

4: Yeah. And then, at the same point in time, there's also people who are getting lots of money to be a little bit naughty, and going "oh look, we're artsy." No ... no, it's different. There's a world of difference between fringe work, fringe theatre stuff, that's like, "well, god, nobody would ever do that show, you can't do that show... unless." And that happens, there are people out there who want to fund that kind of stuff, who are not interested in the nine thousandth production of Shakespeare, who don't want to do David Mamet, who don't want to do whatever the coolest thing that just came out of New York last month is, that are looking for, smash these plates and cry about it and wear a diaper the whole time. There's a vibrant world out there looking for things that are true artistic statements, there are people who are not interested in redoing the same musicals over and over again, that want to go and push the envelope, and not because it's dirty and cute, but because it expresses raw emotion and pain and hurt and things that are broken; and also great, wonderful things that are just different from how someone else would perceive it. There's all kinds of stuff out there that's not necessarily commercially viable, and I'm sad to say that most of the time it's really a lot better than the stuff that is.

Russ: That makes sense, and in one of our fundraising classes, a lot of time was spent on finding those people, figuring out their values, what they-

4: Oh, so do you know those people?

Russ: No, but I can show you how to find them.

4: Okay 108

Russ: And matching them up with either your idea, your company, your artists, or whatnot. And a lot of the essence of the values of most non-profit organizations is in their mission statement, which, from what you said-

4: "Crafting a mission statement."

Russ: Right.

4: You can find that on the internet. But you can't actually find your mission statement on the internet, that comes from the individuals. For me, the issue is not the-

Russ: Well hold on, 'cause every theatre has a mission statement.

4: Yes

Russ: Are you usually-familiar with the mission statements of the theatres you work with.

4: I know that a lot of theatres have mission statements and don't necessarily do that. I know that there are people who have craft a mission statement because that's how you get funding. I know that, at the same point in time, yes, you need to have that and it should be something that is presentable, but I think in some ways, it's a shame that you have to pick something that is, in some ways, accessible for a broad audience. And say "we're going to do this kind of stuff'' and "our mission statement is this" and then go "but for us, really, it's all about entertainment. At the end of the day, we just want to fill the seats." No, no, no, no ... sorry, what was your initial question? You said mission statement, and it set me off.

Russ: No, you answered it, in a sense, 'cause it's not, again, one of those things they really teach you to know about or be familiar with. But for example, 'cause you've done a good amount of work at Adventure Theatre: do you know their mission statement.

4: I really should. And I think that I know a lot of buzz lines that are connected with Adventure Theatre, and I can talk about Adventure Theatre for hours, but if there is something that starts quote end quote and above it is the word mission statement, I couldn't recite it.

Russ: What about Synetic Theater?

4: They don't speak that much English. I'm sure somebody who does speak a lot of English wrote a mission statement for them, so that they could get funding. But, I think that.. .it, for the companies that I work with, often is confining to say, this is what we're about. I can tell you the kind of work that they do, but I don't know that their mission statement is out there with the one dollar bill that they got. It's not hangin' on the wall; 109

which, for me, is a shame in some cases, but at the same point in time, there are other places where I go "well I don't give a damn what you're mission statement is, I don't like your show."

Russ: We pretty much addressed everything. Have you had any kind of thoughts, or final thoughts, as we've talked about this, any revelations you've had, any connections you made, any last words you'd like to share.

4: Aside from the fact that I'm waiting for you to finish up your degree so that we can work on stuff, uh .. .it's good to take the ... the time to look at the situation, sometimes, and go "oh yeah, I could be doing something there." I think that if there were something that was self-realization- good lord, I'm being inarticulate, but if there were a self-realization I could pull from this conversation, it's that I'm going "oh right, that's me." I'm reaching a point where the somebody who needs to go "this is important, we need to be involved in this" is me. The older person who's been doin' this more than the people around them, and can therefore say "look, you need to know about this because nobody's going to tell-" aww... me. And I don't know when that happened, exactly. I think there was a lot of time in there, where I felt like I was in the trenches, and I'm reaching point now where I will bump into somebody in conversation who says "you should be an Artistic Director" or "have you thought about directing?" And I go "well, yeah, I do that" and they go "no you don't, you're in a show with me right now" and I go "right...right." There's other stuff that I'm supposed to be doing, that I could be doing, that I should be doing, that I will be doing, that I'm not doing right now 'cause I'm always in rehearsal or performance. There are other aspects to the community that I'm not involved with because I'm doing the bleeding edge work right now, 'cause I'm in that stage of transition from having done the educational end to the neophyte out there in the world learning the tough lessons to "I do this and it's what I do" to "don't do that, it's not what you wanna do" to "oh, maybe I really am not listening to what other people are doing", as much as now finding what I need to do to express myself, and who wants to go on that journey for me. Maybe the reason that I don't get contacted by as many people, is because they're waiting for me to say something to them. Which is a daunting task, because that's just a whole bunch of people I haven't emailed recently. But it is strange to sit here and have that "oh, so what do you do with your free time", go "theatre. Oh, I see what you mean." No, no. And then to look at the conversation that I have with people who are not involved with arts and theatre, and go "they ask you about arts and theatre, don't they, all the time? They look at you, they don't go 'so what were you doing last Tuesday?', they go 'so tell me what it's like to do this?' 'What's important to you currently?' 'What're you working on?' 'What're you doing next?"' Nobody asks me what my favorite breed of dog is, they don't talk to me about my favorite sports team; politics comes up, but that's it, really, that I have reached that point where not only is theatre all that I do, but other people look at me and go, well, okay, theatre, art is all that I do, other people look at me and go "this is somebody that I can talk ifl have questions about...the artistic community in this area, ifi have questions about what I want to do. I know people who live in other cities, who have friends who call me, or Facebook me, or email me, and go "I'm looking to do blah, blah, blah, blah, 110

blah. I need a good blah blah blah to do this with. Can you tell me what I should-" And I go "Yes, I can. Wait a minute, I can? I can, hey!!"

Russ: Nice

4: It's nice in someways. It's not even responsibility, so much as just the next step. And there it is.

Russ: Cool. Okay, that will be the end of our interview.

Subject 5

JR Russ: What age were you when you got involved with the performing arts?

Subject 5: I was three.

Russ: Okay, and what was the extent of that involvement?

5: I was a student in an acting class at, what was, BAPA, Bethesda Academy of Performing Arts. And there was a .. .I guess it was a sharing at the end of the semester, and it was a performance of the Bremen Town Musicians, and I remember my first line. I was a robber, and my one line was "let's go back and get it."

Russ: Great. From there, how did you proceed to be involved in the performing arts throughout grade school and high school.

5: It was mostly through BAPA, which became Imagination Stage. That was pretty much it, and then as soon as I was able to, third grade was when you could join the chorus in my elementary school, and I was on it. I wanted to be part of the chorus, I wanted the blue t-shirt, I wanted it, so-

Russ: So you got it.

5: Third grade.

Russ: Nice. And then, from there?

5: From there? As much involvement as I could in school. It actually was a way to escape because I was teased a lot as a kid, so this was one place I could go and it was safe, because I could do something, and I could do it with my peers, and it was the one place that they didn't tease me. So that's why I stuck with the arts.

Russ: And then, throughout high school it was still mainly through the chorale? 111

5: Mainly through school, somethings with BAPA/Imagination Stage, but, yeah. School, church, basically wherever I could. And then finally my junior year in high school, my voice teacher, I found a voice teacher, and she encouraged me to continue on in college, and to apply for scholarships, and I won a scholarship to Peabody.

Russ: Cool. And throughout high school, it was still mostly vocal stuff, or did still do stage work?

5: Yeah, there was both in high school.

Russ: And where did you go?

5: I went to Churchill High School, which had a really good arts program, they had a really good drama program, and the music program was pretty good.

Russ: The teacher you found, was that through high school-as well?

5: That was also through high school, yeah. She would come and do master classes with our chorus groups, and that's how I found her.

Russ: But then you took lessons privately?

5: But then I took privately.

Russ: And then college, what was college like?

5: Um .. .it was an interesting experience. I'm not sure that I would have .. .if given the opportunity to go to conservatory again, I don't know that I would, for my under grad. I was not able to finish, and it was not.. .it was kind of like being thrown in an olympic size swimming pool and not knowing how to swim. So, I was unprepared for the challenges of conservatory ... not vocally, but theory, keyboard skills, which I had none. To go in to conservatory not knowing the basics, it doesn't happen by immersion, as much as people wanna believe that it does, it just doesn't.

Russ: So how long were you at Peabody?

5: I was there for three years, which kind of was like "Really?? So close." But, I got a lot of performance experience, they pretty much used me in everything they could, opera wise, which I think prepared me for my professional career, which ... now I'm singing with the Washington National Opera; they must've helped me with something.

Russ: And did that transition happen naturally, or what was the time like after you decided to not- 112

5: Well, I don't know that there was really a transition. I started auditioning for Washington Opera when I was eighteen. So I was a freshman at Peabody, and I decided to start auditioning.

Russ: And was that something people generally did at Peabody?

5: No. No, no, no, no. They were like "what're you talking about?" I was like "why not?" But I think that's because of my voice teacher, she's very encouraging, and she's kind of like, her favorite thing to say is, "you go and you try and you find out what you don't know. So, you go and you try and if it wasn't successful that time, you go back, and you've learn something." And that's why I started at eighteen, it's just to get the experience under my belt to know what it's like to audition for the national opera. And I kept going back, and year after year they would give me the same letter, the same "sorry, maybe next time, we'll keep you on standby" letter. And then finally I got my packet in the mail, and that was the beginning of what's now the second best year of my life.

Russ: So when did that letter happen?

5: The packet was sent to me the year we did [Jerry] Springer[: The Opera@ Studio Theatre], so two years ago.

Russ: So after auditioning for them for about six to seven years?

5: Yeah, finally decided that "yeah ... yeah, we know her." In fact, that audition is pivotal 'cause, for me, I had been auditioning for them for so long, they got to know who I was, they got to recognize me, they got to know my arias, and they could pick whichever one they wanted to hear that year. So Steve Gaffman, who is the chorus master of Washington Opera said to me "you did the Berta aria last year. Let's hear your Carmen." And after my audition, he said "well, I think that deserves a piece of chocolate." And that's my story.

Russ: Nice. So what is your typical work schedule like? Or, I shouldn't say typical; what can your work schedule be like, both when you're doing a show and when you're not?

5: I am really lucky in that I have a Monday through Friday, nine to five, which helps me support myself and my family. And that leaves my evenings pretty much free. And so long as I give notice enough in advance, say I have a day rehearsal, which is rare, they are very flexible with me and they understand that I'm a singer. It's not enough to support my .. .like, I can't live off of what I make at the opera. But it certainly helps cushion what I make in my day job, a significant amount, which is lovely, thank you for the union.

Russ: Union with both jobs? 113

5: No, with AGMA, with the American Guild of Musical Arts, they are a really great union.

Russ: On that, do you have benefits with your regular job as well?

5: I do.

Russ: So, when you're normally rehearsing, or in a show, you're here at your nine-to-five during the day, and you rehearse evenings, and then shows on the weekend.

5: Yes, and it's exhausting, but it's worth it. And I'm young enough that it doesn't really make that much of a difference for me, ifl were, you know.. .like, some of these people are in their seventies and they're still singing with the Washington Opera. If they also had, which they wouldn't...you know, because they could retire at sixty, but if they had a day job also, I don't think that they would also do the opera, they would do one or the other.

Russ: So what do you do in your free time?

5: There's not much that I can really do, especially around show times. I'm less social, I don't really go out very much, just because my income doesn't allow for it. But if I do go out, it's usually to see another opera, or some other piece of theatre, a movie. Spare time backstage is spend knitting and drawing.

Russ: When you normally do see other shows, is it normally by yourself, or do you have a select few?

5: There are a couple of people that I definitely always will try to go with, especially with opera because it's not.. .it's one of those mediums that's just not as explored these days, so that's a big challenge for the opera in general, is trying to cultivate new audiences. Theatre, in general, is also having that kind of an issue, cultivating a new audience, especially for classical theatre. Classical music, in general, is suffering; I think that's a shame.

Russ: As a professional artist, you've already mentioned it, but would you say that your needs and concerns are met?

5: Needs and concerns, meaning?

Russ: Some practical examples would be: earning a living wage, healthcare, affordable housing.

5: Being a part of AGMA is very beneficial because they do have health care. Being a part of a union, in general, will help you live and sustain life. We did a concert, it's a 114

benefit concert, in January for people who are out of work, who have medical needs, it's for the ADMA relief fund. So this is money that's just being raised and kept in a pot for anyone who really, really needs the help. So, as a working professional in opera, being part of that union is a really good thing for me. I think that I wouldn't have so much of an issue trying to get that help, because of AGMA. But ifl wasn't a union singer, ifl was freelance and I was living off of whatever I made during a show, I'd be in trouble. I need my nine-to-five to get by, to survive.

Russ: You can answer this hypothetically or practically, but when you do have those needs, AGMA seems like an organization you would go to.

5: Yeah.

Russ: Do you know, or do you feel like there are other entities or organizations that address those kind of issues?

5: Not that I know of. I really just don't-know, 1 guess maybe 1 just don't know and have to look into it. But I know for sure that AGMA is there to support its artists.

Russ: Jumping from that, what is your definition and/or understanding of community.

5: For me, I think it's hard to pinpoint or verbalize it..."community."

Russ: I mean, there are different kinds of communities, so just explore that.

5: I think that the arts community is separate from my living community is separate from my church community is separate from my, you know you can go on and on and on. But, in general, it's the people that surround you, and the energies that help to propel you forward. So my colleagues in opera, they're my community, they're the ones who are gonna support me when I'm in a show, they're the ones who are going to show respect for me as an artist. Ifl have, say, a benefit concert I want to do, I know that those people in my arts community are going to come out in support of me. My church community, it's the people I worship with, it's the people who help draw my closer to god. My neighborhood community, the people I live directly around and with, and help to look after their children.

Russ: Do you wanna expand on any other communities that come to mind, that you're involved with or a part of?

5: Work community. One example of how interesting it is to work at the shrine, is that while we are an organization, and while we do work with one another, and it's not necessarily a business per se, but it's kind of a business environment, I have a boss. But, we all support each other so much, like my boss just recently lost his father, his father just passed away. And our office pretty much closed down, so that we could all go to 115

New Jersey in support of my boss, in support of his family, to show that we are there for him if he needs anything, if the family needs anything, and just to offer our prayers and just be there for him. And that was very special to me, it's something that I had never really seen or experienced before in a working environment, so that was really touching. And it proves, just because you're organization, or just because you're a business, you can still be there and be supportive, and it's not this cold wall, it's this, you know, we're actually human beings and we interact with each other, and we all have feelings, and, you know.

Russ: Not to bring up the past, and we don't have to name names, but...because before, you worked at an arts organization, which, from my own personal knowledge, you didn't experience anything like that.

5: No. And, for me, I took it particularly personally because it was a place where I felt so comfortable, growing up around that kind of environment. I felt so comfortable there, and I would've done anything for the organization; in fact, I pretty much did, I kinda martyred myself for that organization, which was probably a mistake. And hindsight is twenty twenty, but it's a very stark contrast, and I heard a lot from my friends that its those little organizations or its the places that you are most comfortable that hurt you the most, kind of "keep your enemies closer" kind of thing. And I didn't really wanna believe it, but it got to a point where I just knew it was time for me to just leave and move on.

Russ: Do you feel like, as you've worked with other arts organizations in other settings, that there's a dichotomy between the community of artists we have, but then the way that the organizations within our community treat artists?

5: It's hard to say. I don't wanna generalize and say that it's that way.

Russ: Okay, yeah, yeah, of course.

5: It's actually, probably pretty .. .it's probably pretty individually different for every single organization, that's an arts organization. And everyone has their horror stories for an organization that they just couldn't stand working for, or felt like they were treated so badly, and what's interesting is a lot of times you come out of those experiences, and you realize, looking back, that you might've been able to do something to prevent the way that you felt you were being treated. Sometimes you can't. Sometimes it's just the way it is, and it's other people that you can't change. But sometimes you realize "well, if they're not gonna change, maybe I should've changed something that I did. Or left."

Russ: What I was partly thinking of, with the question, is also do you think it's a struggle organizations have to remember why they're doing the art, because they can get lost in either-

5: Yes. 116

Russ: -the bottom line, or-

5: They do.

Russ: -filling the seats.

5: I do think that they do get lost in the bottom line. I think that, unfortunately, especially in this economy, it's something that has to be done, is looking at the bottom line, which ends up making an organization look kind of cold-hearted. They end up treating their employees, without even realizing it, in that way. Things like, working in the entertainment business, in general, you're going to be working holidays, because people want to be entertained during the holidays. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't let somebody work a half-day, when you know that we're only going to be here for a half-day, and let them go early, or things that are important to people, like family and community, you should be allowed to leave an organization, and not feel guilty because you want to spend time with your family. And I think that many businesses are like that, it's a bottom-line issue, things have to get done. So, it's not anything that's personal, it's business. I feel like the arts sometimes are the business of people, and that does get lost.

Russ: On that note, also, 'cause a lot of arts organizations, especially if they're incorporated or they're non-profits, have mission statements, but sometimes what they do and their mission aren't always-

5: Right, they don't always match up. Trying to think of, there was one thing ... that was interesting to me when I worked at Imagination Stage, was their mission statement is to bring the arts to children. Now, at the time, they also had a group of adults with disabilities, who all will tell you that they benefited from being part of this organization and being part of the group and growing up in the organization and how much they loved coming to Imagination Stage and being able to perform. But, they were adults now, so where could they go, and there wasn't really anything that made them feel comfortable enough, the way that they felt when they came to Imagination Stage. So the fact that we had gotten rid of a program for adults, because they weren't an organization for adults, they were specifically for just children, that was hard for me to understand completely, because some of these students didn't have the capacity of an adult, even though they were in an adult body. Their cognitive ability is nothing past that of a teenager, or younger, so if your mind is still a child, even though your body's an adult, I didn't understand why that didn't count. And it felt like they were shutting the door on these people who have been part, for so long, of this- it is a wonderful organization and it's a place where people felt comfortable, which to be a good artist, you have to feel a certain level of safety that you can actually delve into things, and feel safe in that environment. I know that's why I went. So these adults were really affected by it, I know personally that they were affected by it, 'cause they would talk to me about it. 117

Russ: You actually, 'cause in training, from my own experience, and others I've talked to, especially university level, you learn the skills to do what you need to do, but they don't really teach you about the business or the non-profit side of things or whatever, and you've had this very specific experience with mission statement. Has that translated in how you understand the arts as a non-profit sector, like when you go to other organizations, do you check out their mission statement?

5: I do. I tend to go and look at the mission statements, in general. But, it also makes me think twice. It makes me realize that a mission statement is just that, it's their mission. It doesn't necessarily mean that's what's being done all the time. But that is the mission, and I think that for that particular organization, I think for Imagination Stage, their mission statement is true. And they are striving to do everything that they say in their mission statement, and they're good about it. It's just this one particular instance that I would butt heads with people about, because I didn't agree with it. I just didn't agree with it, and it affected a lot of lives who directly benefited from being part of the organization and taking classes.

Russ: With regards to both your experience there and working with the opera and other opportunities, how much of being a working artist did you have to figure out on your own, as far as getting the work, or keeping the work, or doing the taxes?

5: Pretty much all of it. Being a professional artist, I had the support from my teacher, but it's one of those things where she was just like "well I can lead you to it, but you gotta do it on your own." She's like "I'm not going to be at the audition with you, that's up to you." So, that's that. Taxes, I'm lucky 'cause I have people that help me with that...for free, which is really nice, 'cause yeah. Math hurts my brain, you're lucky I can count to four, you know, that kind of thing.

Russ: Well, 'cause also with your full-time job, any work you make as an artist, you have to file as, are you self-employed for that, and that's an addition? I don't even know.

5: I'm trying to remember what I just did. I don't remember what I just did. It's not like a W-9, it's different, it's, um .. .l'm an employee of the opera, so it's different, and I don't really have to worry about anything. I have to file for it, but they withhold from me, it's like having two jobs.

Russ: Moving on to a different question, as far as what is your understanding of advocacy? What does that mean to you, when you hear that word?

5: Advocacy, for me, I think for a long time .. .I was an advocate in my work. I have children, who are now grown up and in college, who contact me on Facebook and say how much of a difference I've made in their lives. And the fact that they're continuing on in college and doing theatre related work with their studies means a lot to me. And that's how I would consider myself an advocate for the arts, is that students that I once had are 118

continuing on, and still are interested in the arts, and I feel like I had a part in that. That's pretty much all I do though, I do go to arts day, I don't flag people down on the street and say "hey, have you seen any good theatre, lately?" I don't do any of that, although I will say the WNO production of Hamlet right now, that's happening right now, is amazing, and everyone should see it. That kind of thing, if I see a piece of theatre that I really enjoy, I will tell all of my friends about it and encourage them as much as I can to go see it, because I think it's enriching, I think that it helps people become real people. So, that's all that I do. And I know that there's more to be done, but I think that that's what I can do.

Russ: So, with the multiplicity of definitions for what arts advocacy can be, what would be the other things that, like you said, you're doing what you can do, but what other things, do you think happen, to support arts advocacy? You mentioned arts day.

5: Right. I think I touched on it on cultivating new audiences, like kids. I was lucky enough to know what theatre was at a very, very young age. The family I grew up with, my mom was a live-in housekeeper, and their kids were all involved in theatre, and I was surrounded by it, and I wanted to be so much like them because I was the little kid, looking up to older children who were all involved in all these different activities, so as far as doing more, I don't really know what else is to be done, besides cultivating new audiences through kids, teaching them. 'Cause if you don't teach the generations, then they're just not going to know about it, and it will disappear, it will just die out.

Russ: I actually we're good, we've talked about everything I wanted to. Do you have any thoughts yourself, any thoughts you might not have finished, that you'd like to share?

5: I just think that it's really interesting that everybody has their story, every artist, I should say, has their story as to why the found the arts, why they found their medium, why they do what they do. And a lot of times is because it's an escape from their reality. And I think it's really important, actually, that people have that, whatever it is, whatever you do. If it's sports, if it is acting, if it is singing, if it's drawing, if it's painting, if it's dance ... you have it because you need to express. And every artist will tell you their story, and mine was I was being teased, and I needed something to do after school so I wouldn't be teased, so that's what I did, is I started chorus, and I started singing, and I started dance, and I started all of these different activities so I wouldn't be the butt of everyone's joke, so I wouldn't be teased. I would still be teased, but I knew I could go to my acting class, or my dance class, and I would have a way of expressing all ofthat pent-up aggression or anger in a safe way, in a away that wasn't really hurting anybody else. And it was a release, which was really good. So that's why arts are important, and I think that's it. But, yeah.

Russ: I guess, one more question. That was a really good note to stop on, though. Do you feel like sometimes, with the actual arts community, just the dynamic you have between, say, other artists in the audition room versus actually being in rehearsal. 119

5: It's interesting because some people do have that. You go to an audition and you can almost feel the tension in the air, and you get a lot of people who are very, either, into themselves, just trying to prepare and trying to concentrate, and then you have the people who are social. And you have the people that you know from shows that you've done before, or you've seen them at auditions prior, and you always meet up with them. But it's just an interesting things to watch, because you see all those different dynamics, and you see the people trying to psych other people out, and you see the people who are affected by it and actually think they're being psyched out by people who are actually just trying to prepare for their audition, and it's just an interesting thing to watch.

Russ: Cool. Okay, that is it.

Subject 6 JR Russ: So at what grade did you get involved with the performing arts?

Subject 6: My first show was when I was in firsegrade. The sixth grade at the time always did a show at the end of the year, and they were doing "The King & I", and they needed kids to play the children. So, they asked me and two or three other kids from my grade to do it, and we thought we were so cool 'cause we were doing a show with the big kids. And that was the first time I fell in love with it; I had been dancing since just prior to that.

Russ: What kind of dance?

6: Movement ballet for young kids, as it were, at that time. So, I had gotten into that sort of performance, that way, and I kind of caught the bug from there and have been doing shows since, when possible.

Russ: So how did your involvement grow, as you continued on through grade school and then into high school?

6: From grade school, I ended up switching schools from when I did my first show and the second school that I was at was more arts oriented?

Russ: And what school was that?

6: I went from Washington Episcopal School to the Washington Waldorf School. And Waldorf was, like I said, more arts-oriented. So things like doing theatre stufftended to be more incorporated into their curriculum. So I got to continue it through that way. I was also, at the time, more involved with Washington Ballet and their production of the nutcracker, at the time, also. So we would be performing at George Mason, at the Warner Theatre, and things of that nature, so that kind of kept me on the stage, also. I was also involved with a modem dance company for kids, called the primary movers, and we 120

would do shows around the area, and my sixth grade year we even went to Russia for two weeks, and do a Russia tour sort of thing. We went to St. Petersburg and Moscow. And as far as high school was concerned, I realized how much I enjoyed doing theatre, so I was looking for a high school that not only had a good educational focus, but also had a strong theatre department, and so I ended up going to Georgetown Day [School].

Russ: Cool. And did most of your, at that point, arts involvement, was it primarily with and at your school, or was it also outside of?

6: At that point, it was kind of a mix. At that point, I was just starting to look for outside sources to do theatre with. Towards the end of middle school, seventh, eighth grade year, I had found Musical Theatre Center, and I think I was just starting to do shows with them. Going into my ninth grade year, I did West Side [Story] with them, and I think that might've been the first show that I did with them, possibly. And then I moved from there.

Russ: Cool. And then, how were you involved with performing arts in college?

6: In college, I went to University of Miami Conservatory, for Musical Theatre, so I majored in Musical Theatre. But, because of Waldorf, I had also developed a strong desire for drawing and painting. So during summers in high school, I had worked at the Adventure Theatre summer camps. I had started there as a kid, participating in some of their shows during the summer, and then once I grew out of that, I became a counsellor for them, and started doing tech work with them, mostly set and prop building and painting. So, in high school, I was able to use that, also, so I started working in the shop, during my free time, and getting some extra money that way, and I ended up staying an extra semester after my four years with the conservatory, to pick up a minor focus in scenic painting.

Russ: A we some, and then in college and university, pretty much your training had been with the conservatory and program.

6: Yes.

Russ: So now, currently, what are your occupations or how do you make a living?

6: I work as a server to-be-bartender, at Eggspectation in downtown Silver Spring. And I am also a working actor ... wow, that sounds kinda weird, actually saying that, working actor in the DC area. Mostly I've been involved in mainly with Adventure Theatre, and doing children's shows through them.

Russ: Would you say most- 'cause when did you graduate?

6: I graduated December of'07. And it's now '10, wow. 121

Russ: For the most part, have you pretty much balanced serving and performing over the course of that time.

6: Yeah, and then this past year, I've also been involved with a hip-hop dance group, DCypher, through Joy of Motion, so that's been an additional outlet for me, to be able to hook into that hip-hop dance side of things, and still be able to keep the theatre element still available to me.

Russ: Would you say that's actually not a common kind of.. .like there aren't too many theatre professionals who are also in dance companies, or vice versa, too many dancers who still do theatre?

6: I feel like that would be accurate. With a lot of companies, it's very much one or the other, that you don't have time to do both. Fortunately with DCypher, the company is made up of people who also have other jobs, other interests, other than just the dance itself, which is kind of nice, in the sense that it's an outlet for them to enjoy doing what they love to do, but it's not their primary focus, so it doesn't take up everybody's life, so you do have the ability to do other things. But I know that there are companies in the area that have mostly just people who are dancers who are just focused on hip-hop. This was one of those groups that I lucked into, where there's a nice balance.

Russ: With serving and dancing and acting, what is your work schedule like?

6: lt's ... when I happen into a show, when I'm in a show, it tends to be pretty busy. I'm fortunately in a, with the serving part, it's an easy enough schedule, a flexible enough schedule, I should say, that I'm able to move things around ifl need to, in order to do it. I know there are some people who are working constantly who don't need to have that extra job, but for me I'm not quite at that point yet?

Russ: Working professionally, like in shows?

6: Yeah. Unfortunately, I don't quite have that luxury, as I don't feel like I've really broken into DC theatre scene enough, that I can go from show to show to show to show, and have that sustain me with everything I need to pay, bills-wise.

Russ: So, actually, that leads into another question, as far as do you feel like, as a professional artist, you're making ends meet, or are there still concerns that aren't really addressed with where you're at?

6: I think, as of now, with the number of shows that I'm doing on an average in a year, I don't think that I would be able to sustain myself. I think it's necessary for me to have another job.

Russ: Do you feel like there's a support network or organization or people you can go to, 122

when you do have issues meeting those needs, if it's anywhere from income to housing, even health insurance?

6: Um... hmm ... as far as a legit organization that's geared towards those things, or just a group of people I consider my network?

Russ: Yeah, whatever your personal support system is, whether it's formal or not.

6: Yeah, I think I have an informal support system in that sense, that I have some very good people around me, whether it's parents who've been very good, very supportive of me and helping me out when I need it, or friends who've told me that "if worse comes to worse, if you need to crash here for whatever reason, you're more than able to do so, you know, until you get back on your feet," which has been extremely nice.

Russ: With your work schedule, jumping back to that, when do you have free time and what do you tend to do with it?

6: With my current serving schedule, because they only hired me part-time, I have three days off, Monday, Wednesday, and Saturday off, which is kind of nice. I can either pick up shifts ifl need to, I can go out and find other part-time jobs, ifl have the desire to.

Russ: And that's not typical of a serving environment?

6: I guess it depends. I think, right now, with the post-economy dip, everybody's scrambling to find jobs where possible, whether it's through temp agencies or serving, hospitality work, that sort of sense. As far as serving's concerned, usually they'll try to keep people to five, maybe six shifts a week, depending on the day, so they try to buffer in days off for that. Depending on how stressed the restaurant is, of course people will go into overtime, but with the post-economy dip, I know a lot of restaurants have been trying to buffer against that, so they're trying to hire more people for less time. So that's where I've got my fit in now, as far as the hours they're giving me.

Russ: But as far as working the same days every week, is that something that...

6: As far as working same days every week, I've only worked at two places, and from what I know, both places have had very different schedules, so I haven't quite figured out how routine that is, to keep the same schedule from week to week to week to week. But regardless of that same schedule, there's also days buffered into that schedule, so you always have to have days off, it's just a matter of how regular they are, and how much you can bank on them being the same day or not.

Russ: And so, what do you normally do?

6: Definitely try to sleep, try to sleep in when possible. But other than that, it's funny 123

because days off have a tendency to be days to do things, whether it's things around the house or chores, or just things that I need to get done, that I can't do during the day, because I have enough time to go from work to home, get food, kind of relax just before I go to rehearsal or something. So, when possible, when I do try to get down-time, it's nice to just veg out, whether it's at home, cooking something, going to dance classes, movies, or just wondering around downtown, just to be out and about.

Russ: Regarding community, what is your definition of community?

6: Okay, serious question, this time.

Russ: And, there's no right answer, it's just whatever you, and it doesn't have to just be one kind of community.

6: I define community as a group of people with ... a goal to help each other, that they all have some kind of string in common, whether it's personally related, whether it's work related, but they can each have their own individual separate lies, but that they are all able to come together when times are hard, that they can help each other out, and flock to one person if they're in need, or just come together and enjoy good times.

Russ: So what communities would you say you are a part of?

6: I would definitely say that I am a part of good DC theatre community, right now; I have a large group of friends who are doing theatre around the area, so I'm able to draw information from them and hopefully get information back, just a sharing of information and helping out when possible. Certainly a part of the DC dance community; since I've been with different groups around the area, and know people from these different groups, you realize that both the theatre and the dance community, whether in a specific city or in general, has a tendency to be a lot smaller than you think, that the degrees of separation are a lot smaller than you might give them credit to be. Other communities would be ... the gay community around the area. That's been one that I've been slowly starting to figure out, at least around this area, so that's been fun and entertaining, to figure out and explore. And, certainly, the different communities within the work environments that I've been in, within the restaurant communities. The restaurant that I used to work at, I'm still very close with a number of the servers and bartenders who are working there, a number of the staff that are working there, so that's always fun, to be able to go back there and have someplace else to go other than my restaurant and be able to see them, or be able to see them off the clock when they're not working.

Russ: Cool. Another definition: what is your definition of advocacy, or what do you think of when you hear that term?

6: When I think of advocacy ... a group of people, or a group in general, pushing for and fighting for something that they believe, whether it's something that they want to happen, 124

something that they are trying to not have happen, or just awareness in general.

Russ: So, when you hear arts advocacy, what issues do you think that addresses?

6: Certainly funding for arts, just awareness of the importance of it, being able to have a place where or organization set up that help give information to people within the arts, whether it's in theatre or dance or music or studio arts or any one of those areas, just different places where they can go to see where they can either develop their craft or show their craft or see other people perform or develop their craft too, places where they can learn, where to fmd funding in order to do your craft, or space where you can show your craft, or just having groups that can funnel that information and spread that information out, the importance of that within schools, to.

Russ: Do you feel like in, particularly university, or even with some of the theatre, the dance companies you've worked with, you've experienced arts advocacy, or been a part of it?

6: Certainly. Both within the university, as far as in the universities, as far as that's concerned, showing the importance of, you go to a university/conservatory and all of them are trying to vie for saying "I'm the best in x, y, or z, for x, y or z reasons." But that's something that makes you very aware as far as not everybody's going to have the same outlook on what they want to stress or where they feel comfortable. Just give people variety in performance. As far as the summer camp is concerned, people see it as a place where their kids can go. On the surface, it's a place where they can take their kids, where their kids can have fun, but what they don't realize is everything that the kids end up getting out of it, in the end, as far as the sense of putting on a show and what it takes. So I think the kids come away with a lot more knowledge, whether or not they realize it then or later on. You see it when you see the same kids coming back multiple years in a row, or multiple sessions in a row. Being with the kids that they've gotten to know or whether it's being able to put on the show, and getting to do that, and just the knowledge they get to-

Russ: What kind of knowledge?

6: The balance of, its work and fun, and you, certainly at the younger ages, you tend to stress the fun more so than the work and then as you go up through college, you get more of the work side of things, and the fun comes out of that. So it's also finding that balance for yourself and fmding where you fit in that community or in that niche.

Russ: Do you feel like there have been any moments in your own life outside of an arts setting, where you've dealt with conceptions or perceptions about being a working artist, that weren't accurate, or misperceptions or stereotypes about what being a working performer means? 125

6: I got stereotyped more when I was younger, in that sense, but I'm not sure if... when you're younger, you tend to get a negative stereotype, as far as being a guy, growing up, who enjoys dancing, you can get the stereotypes of being gay, when it's not okay to be, or being various things, as a performer who likes to be onstage. And then there's the stereotype outside of it that if you're a performer, you'll be, "oh, you're an actor, so you're going to be making movies, or you're gonna be on broadway, you're gonna be making big money" and there's a lot of steps in between starting out and getting to hollywood movies and broadway, and all that stuff. It's funny because, from the outside, theatre looks very glamorous, theatre and movies look very glamorous, and the underbelly is that it's a lot harder than it seems, that you do get a lot of rejection, based off of it, and you do have to develop a very thick skin, because of that. I know my parents, being an outsider to it, have kind of lived this through me, in everything I've been through, as far as the different auditions I've been through, the countless auditions I've been to where I haven't gotten shows, shows that I've gotten into but have gotten certain roles based off of politics or not. I know mom has said multiple times, "ifl had to do this, I don't think I'd actually be able to do this." So, you get that realization, of the work and the underbelly side that it takes ... the darker side, if you will.

Russ: Is it a little, with auditions being such a major part of it, how do you connect to the other people or the community in the audition, or is it weird, are you in your own world?

6: I think everybody is different in that aspect, you have to do what you need to at the time. For me, I tend to find comfort in other people, in the sense of whether I go with a friend that keeps me at ease, so I know that I'm not the only one in the boat, or depending on the audition, if you are the only one, focusing on what you need to do, but at the same time, joking around with other people who are there, to try to lighten the mood, because you guys all realize you're in the same boat of this audition that you don't know really know what they want, always. They say, "show us everything you have and who you are in thirty seconds, go." Which is hard, realizing you can only do so much. So everybody draws comfort in the people around them, in that sense, that everybody has the same nerves, everybody is in the same limbo spot until anything happens.

Russ: You mentioned not knowing what they want. Do you feel like there's a bit of a one way relationships with arts organizations, in that it is very much if you are what they want or you're not, and if you're not you need to move on and go to another audition and figure something else out? I guess when I was asking about organizations you think you could go to for support, do you feel like any of the organization you've gone to, you have a relationship where you go to them to ask for, if not a job, just professional advice?

6: Certainly. I think that I've worked with a couple of companies now, mostly Adventure Theatre and Dog & Pony DC, where they've all become friends of mine, as far as both professionally and outside, and I can certainly feel comfortable enough with them, to the point of being able to ask them for professional advice, being able to ask them for reference if I needed to, certainly having a good rapport with any of the theatre 126

companies that you work with, that would be crucial to. And as long as you do have that good rapport, you should feel comfortable enough to ask for advice, whether it's help with a monologue, or what they think, as far as ideas on where to go for where they might go for certain advice; but certainly being able to tap those resources, not abuse them, granted, but certainly be able to utilize it in a professional sense.

Russ: In the end of it, though, is it still very much advice to do it yourself, and figure ways to take care of yourself?

6: Yeah. I think that's the best form of advice. Everybody is busy enough with their own, that they can't baby you, they can't lead your hand through everything. But certainly as far as advice is concerned, and especially as far as the theatre community is concerned, it is very much a you have to take matters info your own hands, and your career, as it were, will tum out as you make it. If you're willing to put in the work for it, to find, whether it's auditions, to find space, to find funding, then you're more apt to get it as opposed to sitting around and thinking that it's going to come to you, because there are too many people who are looking for the same thing, for it to just magically land in your lap without doing any work for it.

Russ: I'm going to throw a hypothetical question that just came up, which I haven't really asked anyone else. Let's say, hypothetically, there were a company which you and a number of people in your community, or people who've you become friends with, have worked with, who, not that you want to make a fortune, but you know they could afford to pay a little more than they do. Do you feel like there would be some kind of mechanism, or some kind of way to either go there as a group, or to talk to them on a level, to basically ask them what their policy is with regards to paying artists, and what it would to take for them to pay their artists more?

6: Certainly. I think that that's something that's always worth trying to broach, whether or not it's, I guess ... part of it has to be in the way that it is done, part of it has to be, certainly, how comfortable you have become with a certain company, with a certain organization, and how much you feel it might be at risk of being taken the wrong way. But I think, certainly, having a comfort with them, would help. But I think it's ... and I think it also depends whether you're asking, in general, for the later company members to come, and you feel like you're trying to help them, or whether it's you trying to help yourself, as far as whether or not it gives your working in said organization, and are basically looking for, maybe it's a way for you, or you and the people around you and the preceding ones to come.

Russ: And obviously, this is excluding equity work.

6: No, of course, since that's kind of set.

Russ: So, the way you put it, it sounds like not an unreasonable, not a situation that would 127

be uncommon, yet, do you feel like, especially with this notion of "am I the one that they want" or just getting the work and being very grateful for what we get, that sometimes that's just a subject that we're not willing to bring up just because we're thankful for just getting what we get?

6: I think so. As far as not knowing if we're the ones that they want, I think sometimes show can be very specific, and directors can have a very specific idea in their heads as far as the type of peoples that they want for given roles, and sometimes they have no idea and something just pops up. But, especially in New York and sometimes even around the DC area, you can feel that you're the perfect person to play a certain part, and you get there and there are clearly half a dozen to a dozen other people who are running for the same part who also feel the same way but can be very different from you, and bring a different look, a different demeanor to a role. As far as more admin work is concerned, a lot of it has to do with how you would fit into the company, and how the company feels like you would fit with them, and what it would be that you could bring to the table, as far as doing your job and bring something, whether it's just coming to work, do your job, do what you need to do, and then leaving. Or coming to work, doing your job, and bringing your certain x-factor to that job, that makes you stand out. And I don't know if I've actually answered your question or not. ·

Russ: We'll see when I transcribe it. Another aspect of arts organizations and community is that a lot of them are set up as a non-profit to serve a community. And how much do you feel like you knew about that, going into it, as far as your education/training, and how much had you learned actually just being out in the field and working with different organizations, as far as what does it mean to be a non-profit, what does it mean to work for an organization that has a mission, and what that mission is?

6: As far as training is concerned, you tend to learn about that sort ofthing more in an admin sort of setting, and less in a performers sort of setting, which I think is almost a disservice. As far as what I've learned, I learned about more non-profit stuff through friends of mine, who've been more on the admin side of the table, both in school and then out of school. But then also learning by doing, and learning while in the mix of the job. But I certainly think that having performers learn that knowledge, certainly in an educational setting, would certainly be profitable for them, just so that they can learn that side of things, and know what's out there as far as what they can get into, and what they probably will be getting themselves into. I'm one of those people in the mindset that you can't have to much knowledge about the world that you want to go into, that anything that you learn can help you.

Russ: Do you feel like sometimes, with not knowing, especially compared to some of the other things you hear about, people advocating for the news, other issues, other sectors, that it's something hard to advocate for the arts, compared to that?

6: Certainly. Right now, with other advocacy groups, whether it's people advocating to go 128

green, whether it's to save the environment, saving animals, those tend to get a lot more publicity than the arts do; the arts has been one of those things that it's just considered entertainment, and hasn't been taken very seriously. We're kinda the baby ofthe family, as it were, to use an analogy, that we're just there. People know that we're there, and see us, but don't take us real seriously when we say we need things. But, certainly, we've proven that the arts is necessary, whether as a visual element, as a musical element, and that different parts of the arts have the ability to help people with other aspects, whether it's music or math, visual things, and science, or architecture and things like that, I definitely think that we've proven we are useful, that we need to keep it alive, and keep a good base for us to do so. But we're certainly, like I said, looked at as something that, "yeah, we're there, and we'll get to that when we have time, we'll deal with the arts, the funding for the arts, or funding for any sort of organization for the arts, in any way, shape, or form, after we've done with the big kid stuff."

Russ: How much do you know about, being a Maryland resident, the Maryland advocates for the arts, whether it's the actual advocacy organization or even your representatives support for the arts?

6: Personally, not so much. Personally, very little. I have heard that there are some. I have not done any sort of research in terms of trying to figure out who they are, what sort of things exist up there, so far as just looking for jobs stuff and finding out places that have the ability to help me figure out helpful places to get jobs, that would help me branch out to that sort of thing. But other than that, specifically for Maryland, I have not delved into that, yet.

Russ: Yet?

6: Yet. I think that's something that everybody should do, whether they take the initiative and do it is up to them, but I also think that they're not well known enough that people are as aware that they exist. So whether that's as much their fault as ours, taking the initiative to find them is kind of a-

Russ: Chicken and the egg.

6: Yeah, chicken and the egg sort ofthing.

Russ: Any thoughts you might have, which either you've thought of, or haven't really articulated but might be on your mind, any other thoughts regarding specifically arts advocacy and community?

6: I don't think so. Advocacy for the arts is certainly very important. I certainly think that the arts, in the community and especially in the schools, is certainly an important thing to have, for kids and their growth, and certainly as adults, as people who are as that being their way to give back to their community, whether through telling stories visually, or 129

performing, or through music, or being scriptwriters, that's certainly a necessary outlet for them, to have that ability to do so.

Russ: Here's one final thought, 'cause obviously you can't have the arts without artists-

6: Certainly.

Russ: -and do you feel like there's an automatic connection between arts advocacy and advocacy for artists, or do you feel like it's another step to consider what issues affect artists and what actually advocating for the needs of artists means?

6: I guess I see it as a subgroup. Advocating for the arts as a whole, goes towards, whether it's more funding to be able to then help artists in what they specifically need, or helping them keep space around, help fmd space, in general advocating for the arts tends to be a larger umbrella, and then, as a subgroup, helping the artists falls into some of that.

Russ: I think that's about it.

Subject 7

JR Russ: How old were you, when you got involved with the performing arts?

Subject 7: I think it was elementary school. I wanna say that I was in a play. It's so interesting to hear performing arts, because I always think dance, and I started as a gymnast, that's where I always go, but that's not performing arts, really. I wanna say it was third grade. And actually, you know what, I remember seeing my friends on stage, it was Winnie the Pooh, so I don't think it was in the play. I feel like, also, that my mom was huge into musical theatre, so I would say as early as third, well probably earlier than that, but I would say third grade, so what is that? Eight, nine?

Russ: Yeah, about. Eight or nine.

7: That I remember dressing up and going to see The Phantom of the Opera, and going to the Kennedy Center and hearing musicals all around, Doris Day, and I sort of knew, Yul Brynner, these names around the house, in my ears. Yeah, so I would say about nine years old.

Russ: And that was with school?

7: That was at home.

Russ: Okay. 130

7: That was being exposed to the performing arts, mainly theatre, musical theatre, through my mom.

Russ: And then the first production you were in, or the first stage experience?

7: Yeah, I'm trying to remember, oh first stage experience? Well, I would say that is probably closer to fourth grade. We had this talent competition where I, it was always a tie between myself, it was fourth and fifth grade, myself and a tap dancer. And she was very good, and I was a gymnast, so that what we were competing with, and I feel like that counts, because that was performance, and I remember thinking like, "dance. How can dance compete with gymnastics?" And throughout gymnastics, being exposed to ballet in a gymnast mind.

Russ: Were you required to take it?

7: Required to take it, yeah. In the studio, I remember, whatever, I was a gymnast, looking through these windows, and it was the early nineties, and these women were taking jazzercise, and they were wearing neon pink leggings with thong leotards, and we were just like "what is that?" It was this whole foreign concept, this dance thing. But the performing arts, I would say about fourth grade was my first stage experience.

Russ: So how did that translate through the rest of grade school and high school, as far as other stage experiences, dancing, or continuing with gymnastics even? 'Cause yeah, I'd say that counts.

7: 'Cause it's definitely performing, but it's a different, now that I've become a dancer, it's different.

Russ: As far as what you value about it, or what the process and the product-

7: And the pressure, as well, is far greater, to stay on the beam, than to, at least what I've discovered as a performer, sort of every performance is an improv. So even if it is set choreography, like you know with release technique, you have to have something to release, so it's the same concept there, that I've had this world of, you have to be a certain way in gymnastics, you have to point your toes, you have to have your legs straight, if you fall of the beam you get deducted, so this movement away from that kind of pressure, and to be able to just move on stage.

Russ: You could almost say, less about quantitative values and more about qualitative values?

7: Yeah, I would say that, yeah, definitely. And also what it is to be .. .I mean I was always part of a team, I played sports after gymnastics, even in gymnastics you're part of a team, but it is very individual. And the idea of this energy that's on stage with other people, and 131

that didn't come, really, until I wanna say college.

Russ: Okay.

7: So definitely in high school, so I stopped gymnastics when I was in eighth grade. It was a whole mind-blowing "what am I going to do with my life", I was always a gymnast, kind of thing. And I remember thinking, "dance, what is dance? It's not intellectual, it's not athletic." And then, of course, I'm a dancer now. So I always eat my words, is what seems to happen. But Brooke Kuhl-McClelland, I remember my freshman year, I was in turmoil with this, like how I was saying about dance-

Russ: And this is in high school?

7: In high school, and then what I was feeling towards it. And Brooke Kuhl-McClelland was the high school dance teacher, and freshman year I took a class? No, no, we didn't take anything. And then my friend and I decided, "okay, we'll talk a class." And then, junior company and then senior company, junior year and senior year. And then I got into this dance thing, which was on a stage, and it's not padded, and you don't wear shoes, or you can wear shoes, and so there's this other... foreign world. Because it is different, the gymnastics background, and the ballet, as you can say, or the more classical forms, or just being in a studio.

Russ: And so what styles of dance did you, and this is the dance company in your high school?

7: In high school, yeah, high school. I was fourteen, fifteen? Fourteen ... fourteen entering high school, but fifteen, sixteen-

Russ: When you really kinda-

7: -when I started, yeah, when I was like "okay, guess I'll do this .. .'cause I really like it." And, sorry, what was your question?

Russ: As far as what styles of dance.

7: Yes, so it was mainly jazz, so it was jazz. I did a teeny little tap, somehow. We did modem, which was ... you know, swimming, when you roll and you fly over, so that kind of tricky modem, and you're in a circle and you hold each other's hands and then you let go of your feet so every other person is flying, that kind of modem, and then ballet. I took ballet after gymnastics because, well first of all 'cause my mom was like, "uh, well I, what're you going to" she was freaking out a little, as well, 'cause she'd always known me as a gymnast, and she know I had this crazy energy that needed to get out, and I just remembering dreading those Saturday morning classes. I remember thinking then "this is different", 'cause I was very flexible and strong so in an odd way, I would remember 132

being at the bar and doing an attitude, and then turning and trying to touch your head and being the, sort of, demonstrator, like the teacher came over and demonstrated with my body, but then we would come to center and do turns, and I was like "how can she do four turns?" like "I don't understand." And so it was entering this very separate world, very different, for me. In any case, so ballet, a teeny bit of modem, lots ofjazz, a little tiny hip-hop. And I remember, I got my friend and I who did dance together in high school, we had to shake our hips, and I was like "I'm not doing that, I'm not shaking my hips, I don't go there." So it's just this whole other world, really a very different world. But it was all in high school.

Russ: And then college happened and?

7: College happened and I knew I wanted to go into liberal arts, I thought I wanted to major in English but I didn't want to commit, I didn't know, but I wanted to go to liberal arts and-

Russ: And where did you go, again?

7: -ended up at Bucknell, Bucknell University in Pennsylvania, which is a beautiful campus, great school, but...anyway. But I did not like my first two years there, 'cause I was like "everyone is so rich and they all have their cars," and I was like, "whatever, I'm not part of this." And it is, it's a very, very ... what do they call it, it's like the ... what's that catalogue, very tailored, J-Crew. Bucknell students are J-Crew models, that's what it is, so it has a certain persona. But it ended up, I actually found my place when I made the company my sophomore year. And I just, again, wanted to explore, wasn't quite sure what I wanted, but I knew I wanted it. I remember seeing the company my freshman year perform, and be like, "wow, I can do that, and I want to do that." So, I pursued it and got m.

Russ: How did you see them perform, was it just one of those student activities?

7: No, actually it's a minor at Bucknell, but it's the Bucknell Dance Company. But it's a good program. So it was a formalized, they have a spring show... a fall show and a spring show. Fall was at Harvey Powers, which is a nice proscenium stage, and then the spring is in the Weis Center, which is this sort of, magnificent, they bring in philharmonics and theatre, and it's just a very nice, for the town, it's called Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, very small town. There's one market square, there's the Freeze, which is the best ice cream shop ever, and a Walmart, that's pretty much it. So, in any case, it was their Harvey Powers fall showcase.

Russ: And you had been going, or did you have a friend in it, or you're just like, "I wanna-"

7: I was taking class, and I think I just went on my own, 'cause I was like "I wanna see 133

what this is." And I knew one of the, we had these things, what're they called, I don't what they're called anymore ... arts colleges? Or residential colleges, freshman year, so I was in the arts college. But I did not want to be at all. I remember going to the freshman orientation, being like "what are these res, res colleges?" Like, "I don't wanna be part of that, I don't know what that means." Somehow, I think it was because I was interested in dance and gymnastics, so I was placed in a quad, of all places, so three other ladies in the room, I'm flipping out about that, as well. Which I've always shared a room with my sister, so I don't know what that was about, but I just wanted my own space, apparently. I was in the arts college, which actually turned out to be really great, because I met a lot of cool musicians, and there was a dancer on the other side, I was 3-D, they were 3-C. That was the arts college, and a good friend, who we're still friends now, who we played lacrosse together. But, yeah, I think I just went to check it out 'cause I was like, "oh, I wanna see what this is."

Russ: Saw them dancing and auditioned.

7: Saw them dancing, and it was great, and it was actually, it was Romeo & Juliet, it was a modem/ballet. Er-dong Hu is the, he's great, he's the ballet teacher there. And he choreographed it, and I remember loving the music, and I'd never seen a ballet. Again, I'd seen tons of theatre, formal and musical, but not much dance. I've seen stage dance. There's this place in Columbia, where I live, where my parents live as well, called Toby's Dinner Theatre.

Russ: Yeah.

7: Yes, you know about it. So, Reenie Codelka is my, she's basically my godmother, no she's basically my aunt, but she's just a great friend ofthe family, always been a friend of my mom's, so she kind of helped raised us, but basically an aunt. But, anyway, she was the musical theatre director at Catholic University for twenty years, until recently, and then she also worked at Toby's, and that kind of influence had always been there. I remember going to see theatre, going backstage because they had connections, and that was very cool, meeting Dan, is his name, was an actor that Reenie and Anne, my godmother, but also kind of an aunt, but not really by blood relation, going to see the show and meeting this Dan guy afterwards, and seeing some of the props, I remember a tart. It was just very cool, all that, and then it was my first Broadway show, when Reenie took us up, I think my brother and I were sixteen. Anyways, but that kind of art was around, but not dance. I mean, it was in its particular form, but not modern or even ballet, so I had never really seen, until I went to high school and then saw it, saw Swan Lake ... on TV. And it was really interesting to see that, and some very good dancers at Bucknell.

Russ: And you said they had a minor?

7: A minor, and still have a minor. And, again, they were trying to decide whether to go 134

into a major, but Bucknell's a pretty small school. Anyways, in terms of competing with the other [programs] it's better to, this is what they've discusses, Er-dung and Kelly, now, who's the other program coordinator and assistant professor, that it's great to be a very, very strong minor, as opposed to a fledgling major. So I think they're going to stay that way, which is a great decision.

Russ: And did you declare a major, or a minor in dance.

7: Yes. My sophomore year, you have to choose, so I chose English, which I always new that was going to happen, and then I declared a Minor in dance as well.

Russ: Awesome.

7: Yeah, my sophomore year, yeah.

Russ: So you graduated in '03?

7: I did.

Russ: Okay, and what did you do after that, professionally? What has been your occupation?

7: Well, dance really has been my occupation, though I don't get paid much for it, so it's hard to say that that's my occupation, unfortunately. But, it is. It's taken me a while to embrace that I am a dancer, to say that, it's been a long process. And I think it's because I put academic pressure on myself, always, I don't really know why. Maybe it's the example of my older sister, 'cause my brothers, they're good students, but never overachievers like my sister and I. So maybe that was part of it, but also my friends, we always worked hard, and that's what we did. So I remember, I guess it was maybe my sophomore year, being like "what am I going to do after school, am I going to go on to English, am I going to, you know, continue my education?" But I really wanted to dance, that's what I couldn't confront, but knew that that's what it was, or didn't fully confront. But then I came back, and that's all I pursued. So I started taking classes with Helen Hayes on Fridays, at Joy ofMotion kind of regularly, and I took Deborah Riley's Tuesday and Thursday modem classes, and so I was at Dance Place a lot, and that's where I met Meisha Bosma and thought "oh, she moves in an interesting way" and just talking to her after, it was funny, you really have to put yourself out there, you have to go take classes and communicate. So, I was like, "hi, I'm interested and I'm new in town and I'd love to dance for you" and that's also how I got to know Gesel Mason. And so I worked with Bosma Dance; it was a long commute, it was all the way from Columbia, Maryland to Alexandria, every, gosh, I think it was either Monday, Wednesday, Friday or Tuesday, Thursday, like ridiculous, to, do you know the, what is, the George Washington Masonic Memorial? 135

Russ: Yeah, yeah.

7: That very cool mason place, that's where we would rehearse. And at that time I was also dancing a little bit with Gesel, and then I came back and I was thinking, I went to ADF right after school, so took the, what is it, June to July of two thousand three, went to ADF, met David Dorfman, thought "oh, he's fabulous" and I felt like I really grew in those six weeks, as a modem dancer. It was nice to find a community, but dancers, I was like "oo, I gotta get away", it's a lot to take. But that was fantastic, and tons of exposure to dance, and so every night there's a performance, and I got to meet some really interesting people and really work with, um.. .I mean, David Dorfman's the one person I really remember from, and T atiana Baganova, who did very, I took her level four modem, and just gave a lot of encouragement there, which was really, in almost subtle ways, 'cause I know I wasn't the best dancer there, by any means, but it was nice to be embraced by these dancers and by these teachers. And so after that, then I came home, being like "okay, I gotta keep, sorta the momentum" and found Meisha, found Gesel, found Air Dance Bernasconi. While at ADF, there was a master class that you had to petition for, you had to pull your name out of a hat. I didn't get it, and neither did a couple of the friends that I made there. I was like "well, whatever, I want to work with Brenda Angiel" so I sort of instigated it, and we got another class open, so we're like "yeah", I was very proud of myself for doing that. So I got a little experience with bungee and a little experience with aerial, and I was like "this is something I want to pursue." So I worked with Air Dance Bernasconi, Jayne Bernasconi's her name, in Baltimore. And didn't like her stuff too much, but it put the bug of aeriel into me. So working with those three companies, I stuck with Gesel on and off, 'cause she worked project based, and then stuck with Meisha until two thousand five, when I decided, okay, I need to use my brain again, and applied to school...for English.

Russ: Before you go there, so what were you doing occupation-wise, was it just performance, or what else were you doing?

7: Okay, so I was performing, which is a pittance. I was living at home, so I didn't have too many expenses, but I was doing different things. I was pursuing my Pilates certification, my mat certification, so I was working, but for free. I was teaching at an after-school program, teaching English, actually, it was a Korean after-school program. There's also Koreans in Columbia, and I learned about this culture, it was really interesting. Teaching them, it was an after-school English, so we would do little projects and do some basic grammar and that kind of stuff. And talked, but they were good, they spoke English very well. And I was also working in a gym, with the babies, at the little, you know, when moms go to work, they drop off their baby, and I was like I can't handle babies." Luckily it was me and this other w'?man who just had a child, was very good, and so was in the nursery, but also with the older kids. And so I was working at a gym, and also an after-school program at my old Bollman Bridge Elementary, and that was just playing with the kids after for an hour and half, or two hours until their parents come and pick them up. And I attended two ACDF's, and the ACDF A I worked on. I can't 136

remember her name, actually, but she was the head of it at the time, and it was at George Washington. Anyways, I was making a little money there, and then just stuffmg envelopes and that kind of stuff. And then I was writing for Dancer Magazine, so I went to ACDF out in Orange County, no, no, I can't remember where it was, but I met...actually, no, it was at the George Washington, that's what it was, it was that and they had a performance, they had the ACDF show, and, again, I was very bold in those days, and I was just like, "hi, I'm Stephanie, I just graduated with an English degree." This was Owen Goldman, I was introducing myselfto, who was the editor of this small dancer magazine. And so we kept in touch over the summer, where I worked at Black Bear Day Camp, I was doing lots of things with kids at the time, which is up in New Jersey with my sister. We kept in touch and then eventually he said, "yeah, go ahead and let's start writing" and so I started writing articles for this dancer magazine, and I kept that up for the next two years. So lots of little things, the only thing with English was the little after-school program, and not so much with dance, either, except just pursuing my own performance.

Russ: So then you went back to school?

7: And then I went back to school, I was like "scrap this!! I can't continue driving anymore, uhhh." And I was still living at home at that time, and so I applied for English, I was thinking, what is the next step. And I actually got a full ride to ASU, 'cause I love Arizona, so I was like "oh, I'll apply to Arizona" and they had a good area that I wanted for English. But I also, I was like "yeah, just on a whim, I'll apply to Oxford" so I got into Oxford, and I was like "what do I do, do I want to make this my life or do I want to see?" 'Cause this was for a one-year masters at Oxford, or for a terminal degree, a PhD, at ASU. And I visited ASU, I actually liked it, the campus was pretty cool, the professor that took me around was great, but I just kept thinking "oh, well what ifl don't want to pursue a PhD." Because they can give you a terminal masters, but if they're going to pay me the full ride, it's kind of wrong to cut out after two years. So I enjoyed it, and also personal reasons, an ex that we we were on and off was in Arizona, so I was like, "I have to distance myself." So, I ended up going to Oxford, but then thinking "well, how the hell am I going to pay for this?" So I got a grant, not a grant, I got a ... what is it, I got a loan from the government, and then my godmother paid for us, so it was amazing. And then I spent a year there studying English, but really dancing. So I helped found this, it's called Freefall. And, again, it's just about you have to talk to people, you have to go take class, trying to get out there, trying to be proactive. And so we helped found this company where we had class on Sundays for the students, and I would teach. I was actually getting into, I really enjoyed choreographing and teaching at that time, it was kind of testing those waters. But also I found a great lady, her name is Florencia Lopez Bo, who is now in DC, actually, who was looking for a partner to dance with, 'cause she had these two showcases that she got into, one in Oxford, one in London. And I actually ended up performing with her in Oxford and London, twice, so that was very cool, pursuing that. And then I performed all over the colleges in Oxford, 'cause Oxford is set up as not one University, but it's something like thirty seven different colleges and halls. And so we're 137

going all over Oxford, and then in Cambridge we did a little exchange, which is pretty cool. But I did end up with a degree, and I got a distinction on my thesis, so that was very exciting, and it was great. It was good, I feel like dance just more and more crept into my life, and I couldn't hold it off anymore, so my thesis was on the intersection of this woman named George Egerton and her short stories, and this underfigure of the dancer, creeping into these texts in the eighteen nineties, it's very fascinating, and I wanted to continue, and I have, on my own, I want to continue fmding this image. Like Salome, for example, was a play by Oscar Wilde, during this time, and it's this very tacit ... almost exaltation of the dancer, but not really, 'cause she's dirty and she's a whore, and there's this prejudice against her, as well. But it kept creeping into this literature, so I found it very fascinating. And that was another way, 'cause since then, after I graduated, I've been trying to fmd the intersection, like how can I-

Russ: And when did you graduate?

7: -fuse these two differences. Two thousand three was after college, and then I did a one year master's, two thousand five, two thousand six. And that's where I met my now boyfriend, who I made him dance as well, so I feel like I've been getting it out there.

Russ: Very cool. So what do you feel like your work schedule's like?

7: So now, someone asks, "so what's your main job?" And I'm like, "I actually teach Pilates, but I really am a dancer." But, it's a little crazy. Ever since I got back, I worked at THEARC for Katrina Toews, which was fantastic, she's amazing, but realized that it's not what I want to do.

Russ: How so?

7: I was good at the office stuff, good with the kids, I would teach class, I would enjoy that, but I'm just not good with that population. The school, it was like, "I can't control these kids." I just feel like she had a very, very good way with the kids, it was amazing to watch her. And I came back, danced with Meisha Bosma, I danced a little with Gesel again. I remember that was one of the reasons I came back, even though I had a boyfriend in Oxford, I was like "I have to get back and dance," like "I miss that community" of women, really, is what it was.

Russ: Specifically, the DC community?

7: Specifically the DC community, specifically BosmaDance and those dancers, but the DC community, yeah. And I just felt like other people could do that job much better than I could, especially because I was pulled towards more the performance side, in any case. But I worked with Katrina Toews, and, again, I was pursuing my comprehensives, so my Pilates comprehensive, meaning equipment. And it was insane, schedules are insane, it's sort of eight, nine o'clock in the morning 'til ten or eleven at night, just because I had to 138

get home from THEARC, which is in southeast, which is a good hour and a half, hour and fifteen without traffic. I felt like it was hectic, very busy.

Russ: And not just Monday thru Friday.

7: And not Monday thru Friday, yes. And this is a new thing, that I have my weekends off. I'm like "this is how the other side lives, and it's .. .it's amazing." I'm like "no wonder you live for the weekends." But it's interesting because I had never, um.. .it's interesting that you say that, 'cause yeah, it was a "of course I'm just going to work every day of the week, that's just what's going to happen, and it's gonna be, I'm gonna be in Virginia one day and then I'm going to be in Rockville the other day, and, you know, we're going to rehearse for free, and that's just going to be what it is." And then work on top ofthat at my five different jobs. It was nice when I was at THEARC, though, because I was there for twenty-five hours a week, and then I would we rehearse. And we rehearsed at THEARC, sometimes at Rockville. But I felt a lot of my time was spent in the car, and I realize, well car's good, I can plan for my class. I have to teach at THEARC, or wherever. But I found I was teaching more, at that time. I was also teaching, randomly, gymnastics after school. It was good money, and I was teaching at Trinity University, which I still teach, and that's a Pilates class. In terms of getting more into teaching Pilates classes, a little into teaching kids classes, and then rehearsing with three different companies. So pretty hectic. And that actually all stopped, pretty recently, last February is when I realized, not this past, but a year from, I was dancing with Kimmie and Enoch, Meisha... who else, it was a new company. Oh, I was doing my own work, and then Dan, Dakshina, so it was just like every day, there was nothing, there was no time off. It was very hectic, I would say, in that it's like "oh, I can make different choices now" and I feel like I had to do all that to arrive at this new place.

Russ: So free time. When it happens, what do you do with it?

7: Right now, I've been hiking a lot. I've been getting outside, biking more, planning for my own work. So if we didn't have this blizzard this past year, I took myself and two other dancers to perform, as part of this Ox-fringe, that would not have happened, 'cause there is no free time to do that. But I need some downtime, so I tend to read a lot, and be active, actually. It's hard for me to sit still, but I feel, I was talking to somebody yesterday, I feel kind of selfish at this point in my life, because I'm like "well, I want to do, this is what I want to do," like "I wanna continue with my work and then I want to get my Pilates, or whatever it is" and not in a bad way, just that this is where I am, and getting a clear focus of what I want and how to get there. But I've been talking with this moving company in Baltimore, and they had, thinking of Arts Advocacy, they had this great idea of having a company where you dance to raise money, not for the company necessarily, but to take company members to Haiti to help out, or to do some service work. So it's always been on my mind, ifl had free time, would I do service work? I go "I'd love to volunteer in a soup kitchen" but that just doesn't happen. It could, I could make a different choice, but I don't. But that is an interesting concept, so I feel like I've 139

had all these models of what a dance company is, and what it can be, and just every day, there's a new idea. But any case, so I guess a lot of free time, I think a lot, as well, about things, specifically what do I want to do with my work.

Russ: But you couldn't really do that until recently? Before then, you were, kind of-

7: Didn't really contemplate choreographing. I loved doing Meisha's work, I loved being a busy dancer, like I was as working you can be in DC, in terms of being paid.

Russ: Three different companies, geez.

7: Yeah, I know, yeah, it's true. But so it was great, I mean it was like "okay, this is, this is .. .I'm busy," like "this is amazing. All the hard work has paid of' or whatever. So that was really good. But up until recently, it was two falls ago, when I was performing with Dan at the DC Metro Dance Awards, and then Michael(?) from the Kennedy Center, from the Millennium Stage, whispered in my ear, saying "I want to present you and Fran on Millennium Stage" I was like, oh, there can be a different path. That actually started, not a chain reaction, but the interest in, oh I do want to choreograph more, I do want to do that.

Russ: So, you had mentioned actually, it's kind of addressing this off the script, that in your down time you've had time to think of, again, reflecting about what dance companies are, as far as your own experiences, and then even thinking about what it can be, with regards to new models, which it's kind of ironic in that the working company, when you're busy, you're working but then you get set and settled and then you can't really think about how to move forward because you've got this thing that works, but how can you make it work better, so it's kind of a catch twenty-two.

7: Totally. That's a great way of putting it, 'cause you're exactly right, 'cause when you're in it, it's like "okay, well we have this gig, and we have this gig, and, you know, we don't get paid, and I'm really upset with this," or the rehearsal times are late at night, but we just somehow do it. And I've been talking to this a lot about, I found out this great community in Dakshina, we went to India and Bangladesh together, and I felt like it it's [a] really great, fabulous group of dancers in DC, well DC, Baltimore, Virginia, all around. But we talk about that a lot, like "why, why do we do this, and how can we change this model?" Because you can't, because there's some other dancer that's like "well, I'll do it for free" and whatever. And this is DC, it's not even New York. In terms of-

Russ: I know, but I can't even imagine New York.

7: I can't even imagine, and we just all do it. And, yeah, so I don't know, I definitely haven't found an answer, because I don't know that I want a company. I don't know that that's what I want, I kind of what to create work. 140

Russ: And maybe that's not the model, maybe there's a different model that's not a company.

7: Right. What I do like is this independent dancer kind of thing, where I get a random call, say "hey I can use you", it's like "okay." Or, there's this other gig in a Baltimore, sure I'll do that. And then for my own work that I can collaborate with the dancers, or the other choreographers that I connect with, and that we can do something. But what I realize that I do like is involving the community somehow, which I didn't realize I did. So I went to Oxford, I was like "well ... we'll do a workshop with the dancers there." So, and maybe it's not ... and sometimes I had to resolve to myself, like "it's okay that you're not working with underprivileged" whatever that means, because maybe that's not the people that I will make the most impact with. So these are the dancers at the school, that aren't going to be professional dancers, just want to do it. And that's maybe because that's where I found my community, was in college, it's like this is something special and this is what I really like, and I did make a difference in. So, I do unwittingly strive to find connections in things.

Russ: Nice, and actually, 'cause you've mentioned community several times already, so killing two birds with one stone, how would you define what makes a community, and what communities are you a part of? And even if you're repeating some that you already mentioned, like the community of dancing women in DC, or Dakshina.

7: Okay, so. So, say your first question again?

Russ: So define what makes a community, and then what are the communities that you are a part of?

7: Essentially, community is a group of people, at least in my perspective of dance, I'll use that as my bubble.

Russ: But go ahead and take it of-

7: I can take it out. Community.

Russ: And there's not one answer, obviously.

7: A community is ... yeah, no, no, there's not. But I'm just trying to think what do I really think a community is, 'cause when I think of community, I think of a group of people, 'cause these dancers that I met with Dakshina, and work with, we don't have to be dancers, we can exist on our own, as a community. But I feel like it's just a group of people that, you can say with common interests or, but it is, essentially. I think that's really what it is, and that somehow, you make things work, whether you get along or not. Because essentially, there was a different dynamic with BosmaDance than there was with 141

Dakshina, in terms of my understanding of it. But I feel like it's this space around you, that you're somehow sucked into at certain points, by different people. So I feel like I'm very ingrained in the DC dance community, I've made an effort, or, I don't know, I've just been a part of it, not even intentionally making an effort, but just doing what I want to do. And, so, what was your second question?

Russ: The communities you feel like you're a part of, which you've already kind of started with.

7: Yeah, so, definitely the DC dance community. I don't know that I'm so a part of DC community, the wider DC community, I come in, come out. And I keep thinking, well I should move into the city, I work here. I haven't done it for five years, so it's not going to happen. I also feel like I'm this interesting part of this fitness world in DC, specifically Georgetown, which is its own little bubble, as you probably know. So, it's mainly women that's a part of this community, and this is actually really lovely group of women that I teach, and I really enjoy them, and-

Russ: So, your class as a community of itself.

7: Yeah, I guess so. Wait, define class.

Russ: The class you teach.

7: Oh, the class I teach, yes. So I have this Georgetown, which is primarily white women, primarily moms ... you know, moms from thirty to I teach a seventy year-old. But very intelligent, older moms, so it's a very specific community that I have there, but also, they want to work out and look good, not all of them, but most of them really do just want to be strong. And I also have this other community, which I love, at Trinity University, which is the exact opposite, it's primarily African-American, I'm the only little white girl there, which I love, and they are mainly sixties and above, so they are there for health, they are there to work out, and it's just really amazing, that demographic is just really fantastic. I was coming out of it today, and thinking, this is a very special place, 'cause it's a university, but the gym is mainly frequented by this demographic, these older people. What else? I feel like this Fringe-y, in Baltimore, like there's this kind ofFringe art world, that I've-

Russ: Like, didn't you do, just as an example of it-

7: Megapolis?

Russ: -the alley project that you had?

7: Oh, Axis Alley. So, that kind of fizzled out, because it rained. 142

Russ: But it's a part of that-

7: But it is, I feel like the more I get into Baltimore, art is everywhere, especially visual art, not necessarily dance; dance is apparently not so good there. But these really cool, not subversive, but fringe-y spaces. And so, Axis Alley was literally, not renovating, but rejuvenating this condemned street. And that was led by a visual artist. And then I've done these, with new music, so Megapolis was two weekends ago, and it was improv, so I guess also this improv music world that I'm somehow a part of, in Baltimore. And then also my family, I'm still living at home, and I'm a big part of that community, which I've had to come to terms with, which I'm realizing this is a fantastic situation and I should not complain, 'cause it's amazing; I pay for everything except room and board. Another community, which is an odd thing, is I am a drive, I am part of this larger community of DC drivers who do not know how to drive, and stress around the beltway, I'm totally embedded in that. And then also in this English community of dancers, and not even just that, but this Oxford, like I know what is to be there, I know what Oxford's about, I love being there, just as a tourist even. I feel like I'm part ofthat dance community, I always say that I'm really happy that I can go there and be a part of that community, and I'm still somewhat known over there, as a dancer, which is really nice. I guess it's a group of people that you're recognized in somehow, I think is-

Russ: That come together for whatever-

7: Yeah, and maybe disperse, or maybe last. And, again, that's what I was talking with these Dakshina dancers, was that "the butterfly must have flapped its wings the correct way when we all were born, so somehow we met up." This one point in time, and this fantastic experience, not just dance, but world experience, to go to India and Bangladesh together.

Russ: Cool. To touch on the other word, advocacy. When you hear advocacy, what do you think of, or how would you define it?

7: I think service. When I see advocacy, I think service, but I guess really it's just support. It's interesting 'cause I don't think about that word, I don't use that word so much. But I think a proactive way-

Russ: And this is the English major analyzing it?

7: Maybe, analyzation, of it, yeah, maybe that's it. Yeah, that's it. So sort of, so this is my distancing myself from, intellectualizing what it is. That's interesting. I do have this brain/body, that's the whole thing about Pilates, right? But this proactive working towards a common good goal, that I don't know I really identify myself with, so much. Maybe that's a bad thing, being a dancer.

Russ: Maybe. 143

7: I don't know. Yeah.

Russ: So, with arts advocacy, what would that entail, what goals would successful arts advocacy address?

7: The lack of it in schools, and what we're dealing with every day, being dancers and artists, that we don't get paid. It's almost similar to being a dancer or having a company itself, that you want to get your work out there. But I also feel like it's this greater good, which I feel like I shouldn't disassociate from dance, because it can be for the greater good, it's why we make art, essentially.

Russ: Cool. Have you, going back, as far as some of the needs we have, do you feel like your needs as a professional, working artist are met, or can be met?

7: Well, I feel like they're met because I make them so, because I have to teach Pilates. I enjoy it, but I have to do that to pay my bills, and ... god, my needs as an artist, is that what you said? Or as a dancer?

Russ: Yeah, whatever that means.

7: I feel like my needs are met in the communities that I make, not necessarily from a governing board. I think that's also what I think of advocacy, that it's, maybe not government run, but there is some umbrella something that I can go to, which I don't think, definitely in DC is not. I mean, I know there's an effort being made with Dance/Metro DC, for these workshops and things, and maybe it's my fault for not participating in them.

Russ: Or even arts councils from Maryland or from Virginia?

7: Okay, so I guess that's a ... for the Howard County one, I have issues with Howard County 'cause they support their, and that's it.

Russ: You're talking about specifically the arts-

7: Specifically the arts council of Howard County. Though maybe I can't complain because I was part of this Howard County rising star competition, and I made it, so that was kind of cool. Maybe I just haven't invested enough time. I know through BosmaDance, I know they supported her a heckuva lot, tons, like all the grants were given to her, but she also made it happen. She found connections, and she learned how to write grants, and I feel like that is something that is there, definitely. And that definitely is advocacy, but I just don't tap into because I don't wanna write grants, that's it, I don't wanna do it, and maybe that's my fault, and it is. 144

Russ: But you're an English major.

7: But, you know what, grant writing is completely different. Ifl could write the way I wanted to write, and that would get accepted, I would totally do it. But I know it won't. I know it won't, because I have done a few. And there is a stubbornness in me that it's like "well, I wanna write the way I write, and if you don't get it fine. Or not get it, but if you don't want to fund me, that's totally up to you." Whereas I have a friend in Annapolis who is all about getting into the system, in terms of getting grants, and hitting up the Anne Arundel County, where she is, which I think is fantastic. But that's not necessarily a goal of mine, I don't necessarily think that my art will, maybe it's a prejudice, that my art won't bring me money, so I don't pursue it. Or, not money, but stability, in a way.

Russ: Most of the other dancers you work with, I'm assuming, have been in similar boats. How often does this come up, having conversations oflike "what do I do? Where are the jobs? How do I get money? Where do I find housing?"

7: I feel like, often. I don't know that every time we see each other, it comes up, but there's a commonality there, that we're all struggling to find, on different levels. Some people are supported by their husband, or have just a very good job, but, again, that juggling is a constant. So, quite a bit. Often, it's there.

Russ: With your education with regards to your minor in dance, were you exposed to ideas or thoughts of advocacy, or how to find organizations that are involved in supporting artists, or was it primarily about the art and the craft?

7: It was ... that's interesting, it was, again, because I was pro-active about getting into the community, not so sure if its arts advocacy, but making connections with local, Lewisburg community, that was something that was important to me, that service aspect of it, or the community aspect. And it was mainly technique, choreography, performance, that's what the minor was. There wasn't an arts advocacy class, we had to find that on our own. But ifi did ask, then I definitely got my professor's opinions and help that way. But no course, it was mainly on the craft.

Russ: At some point you had mentioned, as far as the arts providing this good, how did you come to understand, or realize, or know that? 'Cause, again, it doesn't seem like it was really addressed academically, at all

7: Maybe it's because I was exposed to it as a child. I knew it was good, I knew it was something positive. And then even going into these schools where I didn't know if I was making a difference or not, showing these kids that they can move, don't have to sit still, that was important.

Russ: You're talking about the work you did- 145

7: At THEARC, which is truly service work, or at least as close you can, with getting paid. I guess it was ingrained in me.

Russ: Related to that, 'cause a lot of non-profits, whether they're dance companies or venues like dance place or whatnot, have a mission statement, or whatnot. How often do you feel like you have a firm understanding of that, or even like actually look it up? Could you say you know the mission statement of the places you've performed at or companies you work with?

7: That's a good question. Yeah, I think Gesel definitely. I can paraphrase what I think they are, without actually reading them. But hers is, to get people of color out there, their work out there. And I thought it was very cool that I was a part of that. BosmaDance was just getting good, innovative art out there, specific to no one in particular. And she did some service, but I don't know how convinced I was that that was part of her mission.

Russ: Does that come up a lot with, um.. .I shouldn't say a lot. Does it come up, in general, with other dancers, as far as why you're doing it, why you're doing this work, the good you're providing the community?

7: I think we say why are we doing this because selfishly and personally we're thinking, "well, I can't live, I don't have any money, I'm working five jobs just to make ends meet, and I have to drive everywhere." That comes up quite a bit, because we're trying to find, outside of our periphery, that there is something better. And when it really hit home was when we went to India this past year, 'cause I remember thinking "why are we dancing, we need to do something more for these people." The first thing we did was we actually went to Taj Mahal, and on the way up to Agra it's just chaos. There's cows walking the road, cars are, it was absolutely crazy to my Western sensibility. And also, just the extreme poverty that you see, it's just like "we're dancing here?'' It just didn't make sense. But then we got there, and we saw the appreciation of, just the graciousness and generosity of the company that housed us, and that made a huge impact, in terms of my personal saying, "oh, well this does make a difference, even if it is to a small population, who knows who's sittingin the audience, maybe some little girl will pursue(?), who knows." So that was a change. I had always been interested in service on my own, so the idea of this moving company, which was a new concept of pure service, is a cool thing. I think it's a really cool thing. So, sorry I've kinda trailed off, as I always do, trailed off your question.

Russ: I can throw another one out there. 'Cause you had mentioned walking up there and seeing extreme poverty, and then questioning why you're dancing there, and something else that has come up is addressing stereotypes of what it is to be a working performer, and the idea that the arts art this elitist thing, this fluff, this luxury. Have you had to deal with people, or any personal experiences, where you've had to educate them about being a working artist, or what the arts actually means? 146

7: You know, I really haven't. The only time that maybe I feel a teensy bit of that prejudice, is with a particular client, in SummerFit, where I work in Georgetown, because she is used to a particular way of living, she's an older woman. But again, it's not very much, she actually loves dancers, and loves that I'm a dancer, but I still feel like I am in service, in a way, to her, 'cause I am, in a sense, being a Pilates instructor. But surprisingly, I haven't had to justify it, because I feel like that's what we have to do is justify, that's why we write grants, justify giving me money for doing this project. Maybe that's why I don't write grants, 'cause I'm like, "I don't need to justify it, I want to do it, and that should be enough." But even my boyfriend's parents, they're English, and the first time they saw me dance, I was walking off the stage, but I took my shirt off completely, but I was facing upstage, you couldn't see anything, this is this avant garde, to them, and avant garde to me at the time, piece. And they did the best they could, to understand, actually. So they're already are still trying to say, "we don't get it, but that's okay, we'll keep coming, we need to educate ourselves." So I feel like that has been the perspective I've given. And even my parents, my mom's like "why can't you just dance pretty, why can't you smile, wear colors sometimes?" But, through seeing my shows and things, she realizes that's not going to happen, that's not the dance [I do]. And so they have taken the initiative themselves, to educate. So I have not felt that prejudice.

Russ: Jumping around a bit, again, 'cause you had mentioned being part of communities of different dance companies, compared to even your early experiences with theatre, in that theatre productions happen more often, happen longer, but the dynamic of the dance company, and that companies community, do you feel like it's a little more cohesive, maybe, as far as-

7: Dancers, you mean? Versus-

Russ: Yeah, in general.

7: Again, this is something that we talk about, 'cause you get close, your physically close.

Russ: Well, especially 'cause, don't lose that, because the audition process doesn't happen as much. There's not always, this audition for that show, it's not like every dance company has six shows a season, no. You're lucky ifyou have one or two.

7: Two, you're luck, yeah.

Russ: So, because of that, the rehearsal process, I don't know.

7: So, what's your question?

Russ: The notion of the process going from getting into that-

7: Auditioning. 147

Russ: Auditioning to stage, yeah. What is that like?

7: That's interesting 'cause when I came to DC, one of the first article I wrote was on auditions, 'cause I had really liked Meisha's work, I wanted to stay with her, but then I would go to New York and just do auditions, just to see, huge cattle calls, MOMIX, that kind of thing. Did pretty well, but never made it.

Russ: You said MOMIX?

7: Yeah.

Russ: Okay

7: I was invited up to Connecticut, it was really exciting, but I was like "this is not the company for me." So it was nice, I felt like I was mature enough to understand that. But one of the auditions I did was Meisha and Katrina Toews, their audition. I think that was the only audition I did in DC. Since then, I've been invited, even with Dan's company, I got an email saying "hey, I saw you dance. I want you to be in my company." I was like "I'll come and see." So, you're right, it's not linear. You don't audition, you don't know what to expect, in a way, which is very frustrating, 'cause there are no contracts, or if there are, it's per project, and sometimes that doesn't matter.

Russ: But as far as being brought in, either they saw you at a performance, or maybe you took a class with someone?

7: Yup, that's pretty much it. So the only audition I did was that one, as I was saying, I'd taken class, that's how I even got to know Meisha and Gesel, I was invited to take a class. That's typically how it works, how, in my experience, it's worked. And, the random, through BosmaDance, I met Enoch Chan, and was doing photographs with him, and then was in his company, and then he asked me to do his company, do this project, and so that's how it works, for me, that's how it has worked.

Russ: One other thing. Do you feel like there's a difference between how female dancers fit into this community, versus male dancers?

7: It's interesting, because BosmaDance was, before you and Daniel joined, I know, it's pretty awesome, it was all female, so I don't ifl can comment on that, I don't know that I know, really. The only thing I could observe, and I observe with one of my clients, is the Washington Ballet, and they have very strong male dancers. But that's the only comment I can really make, with assertion.

Russ: I guess that's kind of it for me. Do you have any other thoughts that are still marinating around there? 148

7: Well, just the idea of, I kind of want to get your perspective, but I don't know if you can tell me, on advocacy. What is it, what do you think it is? Because, that's what it's about, the correlation? I don't know, is it the correlation of advocacy and dancers, and do they-

Russ: And I can address that.

7: Oh, off.

Russ: Yeah.

7: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Russ: Cool.

Subject 8

JR Russ: How old were you when you got involved with the performing arts, and how?

Subject 8: I was younger than I remember. My mom tells stories of bringing me to auditions when I was really young, at BAPA and Imagination Stage, and I did classes really young, but I didn't start consciously until sixth grade, when they were middle school plays, and I started dancing in sixth grade.

Russ: You went to public or private school.

8: I went to a private school, at the time. This was my first year in a private school, and I didn't do it in public school. And so in middle school, I started dancing and doing some writing and being a singer and performer, so I guess I started then.

Russ: Cool. And then how did that kind of involvement develop throughout the rest of high school.

8: Starting even before sixth grade and continuing through now, I have always thought of acting first. And now I'm trying to reexamine whether that is my biggest love or not, but when I got to high school, I just started auditioning for the plays, and everything I could. And when I didn't get cast, I would just get involved. And I was not a favorite in high school, so I got cast maybe half the time. The other half the time, I worked behind the scenes, house managing, box office, producing, sets, crew, a lot of other things. And then at the same time, I was also kept on this dance program that started in middle school, so I just kept performing. And I think just because I gravitated towards it, it wasn't until college when I realized there was something to that. 149

Russ: How did that realization happen? Was there a moment where it just kind of clicked? Did you go into college with the intent to continue pursuing the performing arts, or did it still take a little bit?

8: Oh, it took a Iotta bit. In fact I specifically looked at colleges, not conservatory colleges, not for theatre. I was like "oh, business, writing, that's the stuff! can make money in" or something. And then summer after freshman year, I was on this creative writing trip, because I was exploring writing. And there was a friend of mine, and one night we had this heart to heart, he said "Tyler, what's your story man, what's your deal?" And so I told him what I did in high school and what I did freshman year, and he said "wow, it sounds like you really like theatre and acting." And I said "I don't know, it's, you know, it's one of the things, one of the many things I'm interested in." He says "no, no, no it sounds like you're really into that." I was like "maybe, I don't know." He said "you should be a theatre major." I was like "no, no, I can't be a theatre major." He said "no, you should do it, that's what you wanna do." It took him to tell me, and then gradually, since then, I've become more comfortable calling myself an artist.

Russ: So what year was that again, and how did you go about finishing? 'Cause you ended up getting how many degrees?

8: Two and a half. So that was summer of'06. And then fall of'06, which was my sophomore year, I applied to be a theatre major, and I got it, of course. And then I was also looking into a dance major, but all my friends said "no, no, no, it's too much, you can't do theatre and dance classes, it'd be too much time, blah, blah, blah." And so I said, okay. And then after a while, I ignored them and took a summer dance intensive, and did a lot of dance courses, really because it was interesting to me, and I thought I can do this. And so by summer of '08, I had applied for the dance major, so then it was theatre and dance. And at that point, spring of '08 was a big semester for me, it terms of I was working with this teacher, Beth Milles, who's a huge mentor of mine, and she encouraged me to be an artist, and invent my own language, and pursue it, and write and act and perform and everything, and she and I are actually still very close. And so spring of '08 was big, and then fall '08, of my senior year, I also applied for the music minor, because I had been singing all through high school and stuff, and I realized that I could take a couple more courses, a couple of which in songwriting, which also really interested me, and then I could get a minor in music. So, it was about that time, that I realized that I was an artist, and I wanted to do this with my life, and when I was a senior in college I thought, what am I going to do after this, and I thought, well, there's nothing else that I would be happy doing, than something in the arts, and that's as far as I knew. I said "well it's gotta be in theatre, and its gotta be performing."

Russ: Do you think that actually, 'cause some people sometimes graduate with this very fixed idea of what being successful means, what it means as far as the theatres you work for, the kind of shows you do, you said that's all you know, but it seems like keeping it 150

open ended might've left your options more open for things that you might not have considered if you prescribed...

8: Yeah.

Russ: 'Cause what have you done over the past year, and how has that happened.

8: A bunch of shit, and it's happened because I kept my options open. I hear a lot of people, a lot of my friends, I just spoke to on the phone, who are graduating college now, and like "yeah, gotta do New York, I'm gonna do New York." And I say "really, why?" And they say "'Cause .. .'cause an agent saw me, and he wants to sign me and I'm gonna go on broadway," and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I say "okay." When I graduated, I thought, well, there's a lot of theatre in DC, and I'd read articles when I was at college about all these theatres opening up, and a lot of press in the Post, and I knew I could live at home for no rent, and so I thought, well, I can get my feet wet here. And I don't know what I'll do, but I'll audition. I don't know how that works, exactly, but I'll figure it out. And so I had one or two friends who put me on yahoo lists, audition groups, and then I auditioned for a couple things through there, and I landed my first gig with the Charter Theatre, which was I actually think my third audition. And then those were people who were connected with the Actor's Center, and the National Conservatory. So they told me more about the DC theatre scene, and getting involved in the Actor's Center, and doing bigger auditions, and I did those, and got auditions at Woolly Mammoth, and Studio, and Arena Stage, and bigger theatres, which was really cool. And at the same time, I started, through random happenstance of connections, teaching at a DC public high school, and teaching and directing theatre there, which has been another thing, this spring, which I've been like "I don't know what! want to do," this has to do with theatre, it's teaching and directing, so let me see if I like it.

Russ: Well, a new program too, right?

8: Yeah.

Russ: Which, seems like it's not a typical thing for public school to just be like "hey, let's start another arts program."

8: Yeah, and, truth be told, I was brought on by the parents' association, 'cause the parents said "our kids want to do arts, and it's not at the school." Well, the school...it's the School Without Walls, it's one of the best DC public schools, and so they said, "we want our school to be the best, it needs to have an arts program, that's what it needs to have." And so, now, two days ago, that I've finished my big show-

Russ: Congratulations.

8: Thank you. I'm going to be talking to them, thank you for coming to it. 151

Russ: Yeah.

8: I'll be talking with the administration about, yeah, is there a position for me there. I hear some kids have already signed up for a theatre class, which confuses me, because I haven't been told that I'm teaching one yet, but hey, if things works out that way, that's what I wanted, so, sure. So that's another way I'm involved in the community, and trying to figure out what part of theatre I like.

Russ: So how has your work schedule manifested itself, what can it be like?

8: This spring, which is half my time out of college, it's been daytime, not much, from three to six I'm doing theatre at the school, 'cause it's an after school activity, and then after that, usually an evening rehearsal for a show I'm acting in. 'Cause usually I'm acting in a show, and doing this directing. And then during the daytimes, I'll respond to emails, deal with administrative things, run errands, or sleep, or go to auditions, and, yeah.

Russ: And then about how much free time would you say you get, as far as non-work oriented time?

8: Like time I can really set aside?

Russ: Yeah.

8: I think, including just unwinding time in front of my computer at home, between twelve and two in the morning. In terms of going out time, it hasn't been much, maybe four to five hours a week, tops.

Russ: And then who are you able to spend that time with? As opposed to normal people with their nine to five job, where everyone has evenings off, or weekends.

8: I'm also in a vocal band, I started a band, so I sometimes hang out with them. Sometimes my brother, my family. I'm close to my family and I live with them, so there's that. A bunch of friends in town, and I'll hip in and out of hanging out with this one or that one. There's a week I invited a friend from Colorado to come over, so I was hanging out with him all week. But usually, it just ends up being, 'cause I run around a lot, I just chill at home.

Russ: And so, usually when you do do things socially, it's usually with smaller groups or more one-on-one.

8: Yeah.

Russ: Going back to being a professional artist, do you feel like your needs are met, and 152

if not, do you feel like you would know how to address them? And I can get a little more specific with the kind of professional needs ...

8: I'll say they're kind of met, because-

Russ: And what needs came to mind?

8: The needs that came to mind, right now, are like ... support groups, as it were. I'm in a stage in my life where I'm trying to figure out what I want to do, and with what company I want to spend my time. So whenever I meet another actor, or another director, or another writer, I'm so interested in talking to them about their journey, what brings them there, who are they, are they someone I can hang out with, what are the common links. So my needs right now are just talking to people and hanging out with people, figuring out what kind of artistic people I like hanging out with, and does that help inform who I am as an artist.

Russ: And that's not something that your training and education ever addressed, or is that something that's been personal?

8: Oh, personal. My education ... my degree was in theatre, not even in acting. And my program brought in professional actors to work in shows, with us. So I'd speak to them about what it is like to be an actor, in life, which was very interesting and enlightening. But it wasn't, are you an actor, with quotes around it, it was, how do you act. And then this past summer, summer of'09, I did an acting training program at Shakespeare and Company, in Lenox Massachusetts. And the first day there, everyone went around the circle and said one thing, or a couple of things about themselves, one of those little games. And I said, one of the things that I wanted to figure out through that month, or that was true about me, is that I don't know whether I'm an actor or not. And everyone in the room sort of gasped, it was like "what, you're an acting training program, but you don't know if you're an actor?" And I was like "well, yeah .. .I don't know who I am right, and acting is one thing I like, and I want to investigate it." But it seems like whenever I look at a program, it's not looking to see whether you're an actor, it's how do you be a better actor. Or whether you're a director, how to be a better director. They don't teach identity, in school.

Russ: Which can be an issue, actually a nice segue to my next question, with regards to how, as an individual, you fit into the community. Because you said, as far as having your needs met, and right now it's just getting support from people. Even there, it sounds like pretty much it's an informal relationship, like there's not an organization you feel like you know of, to go to, for that.

8: True. Yeah, there's no organization.

Russ: That you know of. 153

8: That I know of.

Russ: And, again, probably not something they taught you, in college, to be like "hey, here are arts support organizations, or advocacy, or arts funding."

8: Yeah, no.

Russ: That wasn't really a question, sorry. So, with regards to community, though, what do you define as community? And there's not just one type, so if there are different things that make up different communities, what comes to mind?

8: Working and living together. And dependability, seems to run up with community, in my head, like community is something you can depend on, it's less transient. A community exists, it's an entity of people.

Russ: So what communities would you say you are a part of?

8: I feel, and I've felt this way for a while, even at college, in some ways, that I have maybe a foot in many communities, but then I'm not fully invested in any, which is part of my identity crisis.

Russ: Do you feel like you need to be?

8: Uh, yes.

Russ: You're not saying you need to be invested in just one, though, but you feel like you're spread a little thin?

8: Yeah. I mean, part of me does feel like I should be invested in one. In my head, if it is a stable and fulfilling lifestyle, to have a nine-to-five, with the people you work with, and then you have the people you hang out with afterwards, and then you go to sleep. And you maybe have a spouse and a family, and those might be three separate communities, but they're each there. And for me, right now, I have a bit of high school community, friends from high school, I have the community of whatever show I'm working with. And acting is weird, because it's a job you have for a couple of months, and then it's done. And I get very close with the people in the shows I'm in, close with the people I'm in shows with, and then afterwards it's hard to have upkeep on those communities, 'cause sometimes people go in all different directions.

Russ: And you don't have that much free time, to begin with.

8: And I haven't really been too .. .I've been embraced by the community at the school I'm teaching at, but I don't feel part of it, because I'm not a teacher. 154

Russ: Right.

8: One interesting thing that has happened recently, is I did show in late April, called Off the Block, and it was this ten-minute short show, and one of the actors in that show was in the first show in DC, that I was in, Charter Theatre. And so that was the first time I was reprising a relationship with someone. And it was very fun, and we sort of immediately connected, and were sort of able to get back into the relationship we had been in, and that we hadn't been in touch for maybe six months. But that was a really interesting experience of "oh, this someone who, he's been around, and I've been around, and now our paths have crossed again" and that felt very good.

Russ: Cool. With regards to another term, when you hear the word advocacy, or people advocating for something, what do you think of, how would you define that?

8: I was gonna ask you what you meant by that word. Advocacy sounds like an alien word, sounds like a scary word. When I think advocate, I think of defending someone in a court room. So it seems, that word, in and of itself, without any help from you, seems in some ways unrelated to art, like that art is some sort oftouchy-feely community type thing, and that advocacy is a more hard term.

Russ: So let's just put that together, what would arts advocacy make you think of?

8: Well I suppose it would make me think of artists standing up for each other, and supporting each other. But I say that, not exactly knowing what I mean by that.

Russ: That's fine. The end?

8: Of what arts advocacy means?

Russ: Yeah. To you.

8: I mean, I guess. You mentioned earlier, and we were talking about a support group, for artists, or something. And I don't even know what that means. As an abstract thing in my head, it seems like that would be a cool thing, but I don't actually know what that means. I don't have a picture, I don't have an image, or a sound.

Russ: Well, 'cause in your own way, you've been an advocate for the arts, at this school, even though you haven't done it-

8: Yes, I have, yes.

Russ: Wait. 155

8: Wait, at the school I'm teaching at?

Russ: Yeah.

8: Yeah.

Russ: So.

8: That's because I'm spearheading something, and I'm standing up for it, I'm the leader of something, so I feel like, having people come up to me, saying "oh, why are you doing this, why are you doing this?" and so, I have to defend my positions, and say "You know, I know something about arts and theatre, and so we should have more than one performance, and a venue that is smaller than one-thousand seats." And so I feel that I have been standing up for what theatre means 'cause I've been around a lot of people who don't know what theatre means.

Russ: But, again, you never at any point thought, "hey, I'm advocating for the arts."

8: Yeah, yeah, I never thought that.

Russ: Which isn't a good or bad thing, that's part of the whole reason for this thesis. 'Cause I'm sure you've had to deal with a lot of either stereotypes or perceptions about being a working artist.

8: Yes.

Russ: Have you changed people's minds about what they thought?

8: Yes. And my mother's helped, 'cause she tells me, a lot of people ask my mother, "oh what is your son doing, he just graduated Cornell, right, yes?" And she says, "well, he's a working actor." And they say, "what? In this economy, someone can get a career like that?" And she says, "yes, he's getting paid for everything that he's doing, and he's also starting a theatre department in a school." So, my mom's been advocating, and also, yeah, whenever I talk to people, I put whatever I'm doing in a flattering way, it's like "yes, this is what I do, there is no other job, this is what I want to do." Which shocks a lot of people. I was at a party, and everyone was talking about how dissatisfied with their jobs, they were, and they asked me what I did, and I told them, and I said I'm living at home, 'cause, unlike them, I didn't have my own place. But they said, "wow, but you really enjoy what you're doing?" And I said, "yeah." And that seemed very cool, and I thought that, in a way, an interesting way to stand up for arts. 'Cause it's like many people are accountants, per se, but I don't know how many of them would stand up for it and like I-

Russ: Feel fulfilled when they finish accounting for someone. 156

8: Yeah, yeah. No knocking on accountants.

Russ: Not at all. There was something else. Now with the groups of support, one of the things I mentioned, bringing some of this together, there are formal organizations that do fund the arts and advocate for it, 'cause you live in Silver Spring, yeah?

8:Mm-hmm.

Russ: So the Montgomery County Council for the Arts & Humanities is one of the best ones in the area, and when it comes to budget time, they rally people to show up at whatever office, where they have a public hearing, they all wear something green, and when they have people go up to support the arts, they're all cheering, it's intense. But, again, it's one of those things, where there's definitely a disconnect, and you've only been out of school a year, but where there seem to be arts advocates, arts administrators, and arts supporters, but then the artists are over here, just doing their own little thing. It's like, wait, wouldn't the perfect people to advocate for the arts, be the people making the arts. I don't think I really have any more questions, we've kind of hit everything. Do you have any questions? Not questions for me, but questions that came up as a result of this.

8: Yeah. You're saying the artists separate from the organizations, and ... um ... well, I wonder is DC PAL an effort to bridge that gap.

Russ: I think so.

8: Yeah.

Russ: But we can talk about that later. Alright, we're done. REFERENCES

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