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Official Report of This Meeting Justice Committee Tuesday 16 February 2021 Session 5 © Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Information on the Scottish Parliament’s copyright policy can be found on the website - www.parliament.scot or by contacting Public Information on 0131 348 5000 Tuesday 16 February 2021 CONTENTS Col. HATE CRIME AND PUBLIC ORDER (SCOTLAND) BILL: STAGE 2 ............................................................................ 1 SUBORDINATE LEGISLATION............................................................................................................................. 12 Parole Board (Scotland) Amendment Rules 2021 (SSI 2021/4) ................................................................ 12 Fireworks (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2021 (SSI 2021/14) .......................................................... 12 JUSTICE COMMITTEE 6th Meeting 2021, Session 5 CONVENER *Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) DEPUTY CONVENER *Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) *John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) *Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) *Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) *Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) *Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) *Shona Robison (Dundee City East) (SNP) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab) Humza Yousaf (Cabinet Secretary for Justice) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Stephen Imrie LOCATION Virtual Meeting 1 16 FEBRUARY 2021 2 which has been removed. The amendments are a Scottish Parliament function of, and entirely dependent on, amendment 17, which I did not move last week. Justice Committee The amendments are entirely consequential—they hinged on amendment 17 being agreed to, which Tuesday 16 February 2021 did not happen. It would not therefore be appropriate to seek to remove the sections to which the amendments refer, and accordingly I will [The Convener opened the meeting at 10:30] not press amendment 20 or move the other Hate Crime and Public Order amendments in the group. (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 I move amendment 20. The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza The Convener (Adam Tomkins): Good Yousaf): I am happy with that. If the amendments morning, everyone, and welcome to the Justice had been pressed, I would have opposed them. I Committee’s sixth meeting in 2021. We have no am happy to say nothing more than that. apologies, and we are joined by Johann Lamont The Convener: This has been a short debate. and by the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Humza Does Liam Kerr wish to press or withdraw Yousaf. amendment 20? The first agenda item is to complete our Liam Kerr: I have nothing further to say, consideration of the Hate Crime and Public Order convener. I seek to withdraw amendment 20. (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. Members should have a copy of the marshalled list and the groupings for Amendment 20, by agreement, withdrawn. debate. I remind everyone that today’s meeting is fully virtual and that we will use the chat function Section 6, as amended, agreed to. on BlueJeans as our means of voting electronically. After section 6 When we come to a vote, I will ask members to Amendment 55 not moved. type Y in the chat function to record any votes for yes. I will do the same in turn for no, with Section 7—Recording conviction for offence members typing N, and for abstain, with members under section 3 or 5 typing A. The clerks will then collate the results Amendments 56 to 58 moved—[Humza and I will read out and confirm which committee Yousaf]—and agreed to. member has voted in which way. If I make any mistakes, please alert me immediately by typing R Amendments 59 and 21 not moved. in the chat box, because we cannot go back once Section 7, as amended, agreed to. the next vote has been called. If we lose the connection with anyone at any Section 8—Forfeiture and disposal of point, I will suspend the meeting for a short time to material to which offence relates try to get them back. If we cannot do so after a Amendment 60 moved—[Humza Yousaf]—and reasonable time, I will consult the deputy convener agreed to. on whether we can proceed fairly. Those instructions are the same as for meetings in Amendment 22 not moved. previous weeks—I hope that that is all reasonably Section 8, as amended, agreed to. clear. If there are any questions, please ask them now. Section 9—Individual culpability where As there are no questions, we move directly to organisation commits offence consideration of amendments. Amendments 61 and 8 moved—[Humza Yousaf]—and agreed to. Section 6—Powers of entry etc with warrant Amendment 23 not moved. The Convener: The first group is on the removal of provisions that are ancillary to sections Section 9, as amended, agreed to. 3 and 5. Amendment 20, in the name of Liam Kerr, is grouped with amendments 21 to 24, 26, 28 and Section 10—Provision in relation to 29. providers of information society services Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con): Amendments 62 and 63 moved—[Humza Amendments 20 to 24, 26, 28 and 29 are grouped Yousaf]—and agreed to. as being ancillary to section 3 and to section 5, Amendment 24 not moved. 3 16 FEBRUARY 2021 4 Section 10, as amended, agreed to. Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Amendment 64 moved—[Humza Yousaf]—and Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) agreed to. MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Schedule 1—Offences relating to stirring up McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) hatred: information society services Tomkins, Adam (Glasgow) (Con) Amendments 66 to 75 moved—[Humza The Convener: The result of the division is: For Yousaf]—and agreed to. 1, Against 8, Abstentions 0. Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to. Amendment 27 disagreed to. Section 11—Protection of freedom of Amendments 117 and 28 not moved. expression: religion Section 12, as amended, agreed to. Amendment 76 moved—[Humza Yousaf]—and agreed to. After section 12 Amendment 25 moved—[Liam Kerr]. Amendment 112 not moved. The Convener: The question is, that Section 13—Interpretation of Part 2 amendment 25 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Amendment 84 moved—[Liam Kerr]. Members: No. The Convener: The question is, that The Convener: There will be a division. amendment 84 be agreed to. Are we agreed? For Members: No. Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) The Convener: There will be a division. Against Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) For Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Tomkins, Adam (Glasgow) (Con) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Against McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Tomkins, Adam (Glasgow) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) The Convener: The result of the division is: For Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) 1, Against 8, Abstentions 0. McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Amendment 25 disagreed to. The Convener: The result of the division is: For Amendments 77 to 79 moved—[Humza 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0. Yousaf]—and agreed to. Amendment 84 disagreed to. Amendment 26 not moved. Amendment 29 not moved. Section 11, as amended, agreed to. Section 13 agreed to. Section 12—Protection of freedom of expression: sexual orientation 10:45 Amendment 80 moved—[Humza Yousaf]—and agreed to. Section 14—Meaning of the characteristics Amendment 27 moved—[Liam Kerr]. Amendment 85 moved—[Humza Yousaf]—and agreed to. The Convener: The question is, that amendment 27 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Amendment 86 not moved. Members: No. Amendment 87 moved—[Humza Yousaf]—and agreed to. The Convener: There will be a division. The Convener: The next group is on the For characteristic of disability. Amendment 88, in the Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) name of Dean Lockhart, is the only amendment in Against the group. He is not with us, so Liam Kerr will speak on his behalf. 5 16 FEBRUARY 2021 6 Liam Kerr: Dean Lockhart lodged amendment All that said, I take the point that Liam Kerr 88 but is unable to attend the meeting and has makes on Dean Lockhart’s behalf that the asked me to speak to and move the amendment. amendment could provide clarity and reassurance The amendment is a simple one that was that those who have had a disability or medical recommended by the Law Society of Scotland, of condition in the past, and who are targeted for that which I remind colleagues that I am a member as reason, are included in the definition of disability. a practising solicitor. For clarity, I am happy to support amendment 88, in Dean Lockhart’s name. The amendment proposes a simple but important change to the particularisation of Liam Kerr: I am grateful to Mr Finnie and the “a medical condition which has (or may have) a substantial cabinet secretary for their comments. I have or long-term effect” nothing further to add, so I will press amendment 88. in the definition of disability. The amendment would replace that with the particularisation of Amendment 88 agreed to. “a medical condition which has had, or may have, a The Convener: I call amendment 89, in the substantial or long-term effect”. name of Johann Lamont, already debated with amendment 31. Johann, do you wish to move or That is a small but crucial change that would not move amendment 89? I cannot hear Johann extend protections. Under the existing drafting, if a Lamont. condition were to be substantial but not long term, it would be covered only while the person had it. If Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab): I apologise, the person ceased to have such a condition, they convener.
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