Transcript of the interview with Ailian Chen (陈爱莲)

China Boom Project, Asia Society Chen, Ailian (陈爱莲) 2009

Founder, Chen Ailian Artistic Troupe

Industry: Arts & Culture Chen, Ailian

, virtuoso dancer and choreographer, was born in 1939 in Shanghai. She graduated from Beijing Dance School and went on to teach at the Beijing College of Dancing, Nankai University, and Hainan University. As a performer, she held the position of chief Chendancer and actress at the China Chen Ailian Opera and Dancing f House as well chie dancer of the Chinese Artistic delegation to over a dozen countries. is also the founder and Head of the Artistic Troupe, which is the first non-­‐governmental performing organization in China, and has served as a member of the Executive Committee of the Chinese Dancers' Association. Transcript-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐-­‐

陈爱莲

Interviewee: Ailian Chen ( ) Interviewer: Josh Chin Date: April 1 , 2009 Place: Beijing (China)

00:00:00 -­‐ 00:00:21 Josh Chin Ok ready? We would like to thank you for accepting this interview from the Asia Society's China Economic Boom project. Firstly, we'll let you provide us with a simple self-­‐ introduction

00:00:21 -­‐ 00:03:16 Chen, Ailian To put it simply, I am a very lucky person amidst unlucky circumstances. Why is this? Because when I was small, from around ten years old, my parents passed away as a result of illness. But, it just so happens that at that time, the "New China" was established, in the beginning of the 1950s. So at that time, the government was very concerned with 1 common society. This is the first point. Secondly, it just so happens that at that time, our "New China" converted dance into a specialized profession. This was just established. Before, China had dance, its history is very long, about a few thousand years. Writings show that there is at least 3,000 years of the history of dance. In spite of all this, the real development of dance, it reached its height during the Tang and Song dynasties. However, when the Yuan and Cao period began, with the introduction of Yuan Dynasty Theater, the development of Chinese opera replaced dance as a profession. So at that time, a lot of dance performing artists, the skill and art of dancing, a 昆曲 large ) part of it was absorbed into Chinese opera. Chinese opera is very famous right? So it was absorbed into Chinese opera. Right now people are saying we need to protect Kunqu ( opera and so on. However, at that time, the development of opera 武术 was much 杂技) shorter than the development of dance. But at that time, it was all absorbed into opera. Also, a part of it entered the festival entertainment of the people, entering wushu ( ), zhaji ( and so on. The majority was absorbed into opera and popular entertainment. So in the beginning of the 50s, right after the establishment of the country, our government established dance as a profession. There is singing, music schools, film, theater and so on, however, dance as a independent discipline, did not exist. Just at this moment, I was very lucky. I was recruited to the Central Academy of Drama, which is now very lively where everyone wants to get into. The Central Academy of Drama, the subsidiary dance troupe academy...the government created such a institution, to start cultivating the first generation of professional dancers of the People's Republic of China.

00:03:16 -­‐ 00:05:43 Chen, Ailian Because my parents have passed away, I was in the orphanage; they went to the orphanages of Shanghai to find students. And they thought I was capable, so me and my sister came to Beijing from Shanghai. From that time onwards, at that time, the Beijing Dance Academy was still not established. I arrived in Beijing in 1952. The Beijing Dance Academy was established in 1954. So I was sent there to study. At that time, it was all government activity, we didn't have to give money, it was government subsidized. So I graduated from the Academy and after graduation, because I was one of the excellent ones out of the students. I once told your friend I was trained in all fields, in both Eastern and Western dance. So I obtained full marks in all these fields, graduating with the highest marks. During that year of graduation, I performed in a dance play called "Yu Meiren", it was written for the common Chinese people, to regard it as China's Swan Lake, ballet. It was a Western ballet dance drama that arrived in China, mixing into China's popular culture. It was the first popular ballet dance drama. I played the main female character. Due to these circumstances, I remained in Beijing's Dance Academy. Within the Academy, I was in charge of the performers. At that same time, I taught within the Academy. So after graduation, I was a performer and immediately taught the graduating class. I taught the graduating classes for four years within the Academy. Later on, voices of society were very strong calling for me to become a performer and not remain within the school. Because of the arrangements of the leaders, because we were all government-­‐subsidized, the leaders arranged for me to enter the theatrical troupe, and not remain within the school.

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00:05:43 -­‐ 00:06:36 Chen, Ailian When I entered the theatrical troupe, there is a interesting story. Because I was trained in all fields, I don't know if you understand, but in all fields, I mean a system of Northern Chinese dances that are representative of Chinese dance. Such as classical Chinese dance, the different dances of the Chinese ethnic nationalities, such as the Han group, the Meng group, the Zhang group, the Wei group, the Zai group, the Zhuang group and so on. Including the dances from India, Japan, Pakistan, I was also trained in this. On the other hand, there is Western dance, such as ballet which stood as the foundational training for Western dancers. And there are representative dances of the West such as Spanish dance, Italian dance, Russian dance and so on, I was trained in all of this.

00:06:36 -­‐ 00:06:44 Josh Chin So who taught you all these different kinds of dance?

00:06:44 -­‐ 00:08:40 Chen, Ailian Who will teach me? In China there are many masters. With regard to some Eastern dances such as from India and Japan, it was also very convenient, because we had a lot of exchanges at that time. Sometimes, we 全科 will invite foreign teachers and sometimes we will send students to study there. After studying there, such as after going to study in India, we will come back and dance it in China. Because I was , there is no separation, everything is studied, graduating at this level, so I performed "Yu Meiren", this type of popular Western ballet dance drama. At the same time, when I was strongly requested to enter the theatrical troupe and not remain in school, something also happened. The reason why I couldn't remain in school and why society had this voice was because when I was at school at that time, I was in charge of China's popular dance drama (?) dancers. At that year, Liu Qintang, the person who played ( ), he was in charge of the ballet dancers. He was older than me, and before he was my teacher when I was a graduating student. At this time, after a few years, the ballet troupe was established. So there was no problem when 中���舞 he went to be ��the leader of the performers. owever, H our popular dance drama troupe could not be established because China 中���舞�� already had a dance drama troupe, which is China's ( ), which is where I am now, in my own unit. Other than doing some ( ), my identity is that of the principal dancer of .

00:08:40 -­‐ 00:10:19 Chen, Ailian The troupe was already existent and our school established another dance troupe, which was all under the supervision of the Culture Bureau. The Bureau needs to coordinate so they opposed. If the Beijing Dance Academy establishes a troupe, they say that we can keep the best students of each graduating 夏衍 class, in which case the other troupes lose incentive to compete. So it wasn't established. And they requested me to come out and become a performer. At this time, Xia Yan ( ), the leader of the Culture Bureau, who is a cultural celebrity, in the movie industry, as assistant minister and the leader of the ballet 3 troupe, together came to talk to me: saying Chen Ailian, you are now coming out of Beijing Dance Academy, we think that you are most suitable for the ballet troupe. Meaning ballet in the Eastern sense (?). You are the most suitable candidate. However, another Culture Bureau minister also came to talk to me. At that time, the country was very concerned with my direction, both of them were assistant ministers. He said that I've seen a lot of performers, a lot of whom are older and more mature, however you can easily pass on (?) of Chinese traditional dance culture....

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00:00:00 -­‐ 00:03:22 Chen, Ailian 昆曲 You know when I first arrived in Beijing to study, before being introduced to the Beijing Dance Academy, I was in the Central Academy of Drama....Kunqu opera ( ), is now a China, world-­‐protected cultural heritage, it's 青衣 very 花旦 very beautiful. I was instructed by Chinese dance teachers, 老生 武生 they 小生 are all the best in terms of Northern Kunqu opera. My teachers were all like this, such as acting like qingyi ( ), (role of vivacious young female in Chinese opera), , , (all different roles in Chinese opera). From a very small age, I learned from them. Of course, I was one of the better ones. So they say, it is very hard to feel China's special traditions from many of the performers' bodies, you convey it very well. se Plea do not go to the Western ballet troupe, you need to remain in China's dance troupe. Chinese people sometimes have a strange thinking. At that time in Beijing, when they needed to separate the fields, both sides were fighting for me (?), I was about to study ballet abroad in the former Soviet Union in 1956. The documentation was all ready, with plans to send around four students -­‐ of fourteen fifteen years old to the ballet school of the former Soviet Union. Once you are sent ars. there, you study for seven ye At the end, probably because of some changes in circumstances, the changes in international circumstances, it suddenly stopped. Not long after that, the fields were separated. When the fields were separated, ( ) they say that the study best students should Chinese dance. Sometimes we were under ( ) circumstances. The leader had this type of thinking, the best students should study Chinese dance, so I was allocated to that area. So when my work was transferred, the problem reappeared, of two sides fighting for me. One side asking me to participate in the ballet troupe and the other side saying no, you need to participate in traditional Chinese dance, development our own things. For me, after I feel in love with dance, probably because my education is more broad, studying things both Eastern and Western, I liked everything. Especially because during the period of my study, I gained full marks in everything, the highest marks in the class, number one, so in ballet I was number one, in chinese dance so I was al number one, I can do Spanish dance...etc. I didn't know what I should give up. In my heart, I didn't know what to choose. (Josh Chin: You wouldn't be biased.) Yes, I wasn't biased, I liked everything. So once there is talk of where to go, I really wished that they wouldn't separate (the fields). 't In my heart, I didn want them to do the separation. However, they separated the fields, so with regard to my own circumstances, it was really hard for me to choose.

00:03:22 -­‐ 00:04:31 4

Chen, Ailian So I didn't know what to do. The other thing at that time, we were all obedient children. Very obedient to parents, to teachers, to the leaders, to the government. If you had any individual thoughts, you wanted to obey to the decisions of the leader. 中���舞�� And to add the fact that I myself didn't have much plans, I liked everything. Why was separation necessary? I didn't understand. So this was decided for me by the leaders. Go to , mainly enrich the development of traditional Chinese dance. Enriching ystem the Eastern s with Chinese dance as the main component. So with this, I came out. Till now, I already have...(bell interruption)

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00:00:00 -­‐ 00:02:21 Chen, Ailian As I was saying, till now, from when I entered the dance industry,ahhhhh.... I entered in 1952, how many years is it now? 58 years, I have danced for 58 years. I started teaching in 1959, in other dance schools. I was still a teacher of the performers. I did both at the same time. So from 1959 till now 2009, I have taught for 50 years. And this history is very long. Actually I experienced, from the establishment of the People's Republic of China till now, the long sixty years of development in China. -­‐ In this period, the re establishment of dance as a profession, developed along the way till now. A lot of people say, Chen Ailin, you are very representative. Because, I am still onstage, still as a performer, a instructor, with my own school, my own art group. I still work in the front line, not, as we Chinese people say retreating to the second line, meaning resting a little, consulting and so on. I am still not like this. I am still in the front of the stage, not in the backstage. I am still not in the backstage directing other people. Every time period, any type of change, I have also experienced. And I also have vivid stories. So everyone thinks, looking at me with the circumstances of the anniversary of the establishment of "New China" in mind, I am the profile of a dancer "New China".

00:02:21 -­‐ 00:05:03 Chen, Ailian Actually, I am also very lucky. In China, performing dance dramas, large-­‐scale dance dramas and performing small solo dances as well as collective dances, I think I am one of the ones who have performed most of these. The breadth me of ( ), you probably saw dancing ( ) that day. I also dance Indian dance, Xianzu dance....after the reform and opening up, I also did disco..etc. It was very interesting. Including latin dance.....because I have rather a lot of countries under my belt. So my expertise is particularly broad, and this history is also very ( ). So I am very lucky. I am one of the people who has danced and performed in most programs. At least one of them. Or I am the one who has danced the most. On the other hand, I have received quite a lot of awards. I don't dare to say I have the most awards because there are too many types of prizes. However, in terms of official and standard awards that are of higher value, I have received quite a lot of these. Because in 1962, actually in 1962, I ki went to Helsin in Finland. There was a international youth dance competition. I was very lucky, I performed in four programs and I obtained gold in all four 5 programs. (Josh Chin: Wow...so how did you feel, the first time you left China?) That wasn't my first time traveling out of China. But it was the 双人舞 first time I was competing outside of China. They gave me four programs. Because there were so many people, and some people had one program or two programs. But I had solo dance, double dance ( ), lingwu...there were four programs. And they all received gold. So talking now, it is also down to a lot of opportunities. A lot of people receive awards and outside of China as well, however till now, there was no one who could receive four gold in one competition at a single ime. t

00:05:03 -­‐ 00:05:22 Josh Chin So talking about you from the very beginning, how did you begin dancing? (Chen Ailian: how did I begin dancing?) Yes, because when you were a few years old, why did you begin....because you are a genius....so how....

00:05:22 -­‐ 00:08:03 Chen, Ailian The question of genius is a question of definition. How to understand the content of word genius. Actually, from a small age I didn't understand dance. If you think about it, as I said, Chinese dance was cut he off after t Tang and Song dynasties, with Chinese opera taking the center stage. �立洋���� And I was born in Shanghai. I also had the experience of living prior to the 1949 revolution. For a period, I have lived in "Old Shanghai," when I was small. At that time in China, Shanghai was (ref. to Old Shanghai as a metropolis infested with foreign adventurers). In terms of culture and art, it was the place that was most open and full of it. All types of foreign influences were there. ( ), the cultures from all different countries were all there. When I was very small, I already saw ( ) from America, the ballet on water....However, I didn't really see any Chinese dance. Before, I only saw the ballroom where the grown-­‐ups were dancing. There was no full concept of Chinese dance in my head. What �� �� concept did I have? Movies. Shanghai movies, American �� movies or -­‐ pre Communist 京� Chinese movies, there where so many. And I loved them. Another thing I loved was the Chinese opera. / (Shaoxing opera/Cantonese opera?), (Shanghai opera) and (Beijing opera). Because there were many people coming to Shanghai, there was the local opera and opera from other regions. I really loved Chinese opera. I remember when I was small, my family was like a small ( ) family, however not as lucky as the people today. There was no way that we can watch the opera on a regular basis. So after school was out, I would climb on top and peer down to look at the performers putting on their makeup in their dressing rooms. I was pretty envious of them. And I saw their ( ). So for me, I mainly like Chinese opera, the theater and the movies. I really loved them. My dream was to be a actress or a theater performer.

00:08:03 -­‐ 00:08:51 Chen, Ailian When "New China" just went through a revolution in 1949, when Shanghai was revolutionized, it was the first time I experienced Chinese dance. (describing dances).....so I had this impression. After this, the new government....(interruption) 6

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00:00:00 -­‐ 00:01:41 Chen, Ailian They brought the methods from Yanan (Communist headquarters during the war) to here. And it was very good. Within the school, they established a Chinese dance group, a music group, a drama group, a stage play group....And in the alleys, Shanghai people call them "longtang?", Beijing people call them hutong. On these alleys, we established such groups. I participated in the drama group, the stage play ���舞 group, the dance group....I even blew the bamboo flute. I just liked everything. If I could participate then I would participate. 解放区 However, there were more opportunities in Chinese dance. I danced (Elunchun ethnic group in inner Mongolia), the cute rose dance, the dances passed over from . We performed in the district. At that time, everyone thought...because I am very engrossed in whatever I do, everyone thought that I was a child who could dance very well. Everyone loved watching me dance. But because in one year, my parents became sick and passed away, I went to the orphanage at the end and didn't have such an opportunity. So I didn't have too much of an understanding of the Chinese dance. I thought it was not bad and fun.

00:01:41 -­‐ 00:04:31 Chen, Ailian Afterwards, I got into Beijing's Central Academy of Drama, the badge was Central Academy of Drama, I thought it was so beautiful. You can be an actress, a theater performer....however, I didn't realize that under the name Central Academy of Drama, was the name subsidiary Chinese dance study group (?). Because it was so small, and everyday, we were practicing dance. I didn't understand, so I asked one of the teachers who were supervising us. I asked when I was going to the Central Academy of Drama and he/she laughed and said that you're still a child, you should dance in this group. The Central Academy of Drama is for university students, you just graduated from primary school. I was a bit disappointed when I heard this. I thought, oh, I got it wrong. However, I was very lucky at that time, because I arrived in Beijing in 1952. In 1953, I was able to see a ballet program by the former Soviet Union, it left me with a very deep impression. It was called "Ballet Master" (?). There was Swan Lake, Romeo and Juliet, Pushkin's ( ), the French Revolution's ballet ( )....They were all the best of the former Soviet Union. (names several notable dancers....) They were the best of the country. In one program, they performed four ballet/dance classics. After I saw it, I thought it was so beautiful, it was so deep and such a beautiful form of art, which I was totally unaware of before. And after that, I went into dance. So I felt that it was excellent. As well as being able to satisfy me with regard to the creation of characters, telling a story, reflecting the background of an era, all this types of interests, at the same time, being able to perform the special human movements that you can't perform in Chinese opera. If you are in a movie for example, you have to be like this. You can't be like this (body movements). This becomes a dance. And dance has a type of....how do you Chinese say it, people say (proverb). It means if you don't say anything at this time, the language of not speaking has a more powerful effect of conveying emotions than speech. 7

00:04:31 -­‐ 00:06:11 Chen, Ailian Sometimes when you say something, it is very direct. To be able to give a sense, yet not explain in words. Dance has this special means. Being able to sense something without using words. You can sense it. And it doesn't explain it to you clearly. So I think that this is a very beautiful type of art. In addition, at that time I already had a period, such as what you said just now of whether someone is a genius or not, it was already taking over me (?). People thought that I was a very talented child in the dance world, who would become a star in the And future. when I came to Beijing in 1952, it was during the time of the National Day, the weather was cold. 1952 was a very short period. In 1953....there was only magazine. China of that time was nothing like today. It was probably not the only one, but probably one of the few. The People's Daily published a photograph of me dancing ballet. The outside world said I was revealing outstanding talent, so I thought that was very suitable for this profession. Being able to have some achievement in this area. So after that, I really really liked dance.

00:06:11 -­‐ 00:06:39 Josh Chin So from the 1949 revolution onwards, in terms of what you saw in the development of dance in China, can you talk about....because we are mainly concerned with the reform and opening up period, can you talk about the changes of dance between the period before and after the reform and opening up? What are the biggest changes?

00:06:39 -­‐ 00:07:08 Chen, Ailian Actually before the reform and opening up, you can divide it into two periods. One period is after the Cultural Revolution and another period is during the Cultural Revolution. You can't say it (Cultural Revolution) is a whole blank space because they also had the eight model plays and within that, two of them were ballets....

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00:00:00 -­‐ 00:02:24 Chen, Ailian So it was divided into a few periods. Because the situation in each country is different. After the establishment of China as a country till the period prior to the Cultural Revolution, this was one period. And the period of the Cultural Revolution was ten years, not eight. This was also a period. And then it was after the Cultural Revolution, that also compromised a big period, the reform and opening up and afterwards. And after the foundation of PRC, I don't know if I said it already, because the re-­‐establishment of Chinese dance as a specialized profession, it underwent a flourishing elopment. dev It was very very good, and cultivated a lot of excellent performers. It established the teaching material for Chinese dance, that was when we started to have our own actual teaching material. Before, it was through mouth or other informal means, there were no writings. And there was not much theoretical analysis of it. So there was the establishment of a system of teaching 8 materials, there was the cultivation of a group of excellent students, we established our own classrooms ( ) and our own director ( ). From the beginning of the 1950s till prior to the Cultural Revolution, this period witnessed a considerable development in Chinese dance. It was very good. Now when you look back at the programs, they are still very very good. And some of the past programs are even better than the ones we have today. Even though the performers of the past didn't have to comply to the requirements of today, such as how long your leg has to be, flexibility, all written in a box....however I think the West doesn't really go for this either. I think some Western dancers now have their own special characteristics. Of course, the more beautiful you are the better. Everyone hopes for that. However, beauty does not determine everything in dance.

00:02:24 -­‐ 00:02:32 Josh Chin So from the artistic perspective, why do some of the performances of the past are better than the ones now? Why?

00:02:32 -­‐ 00:04:40 Chen, Ailian Not all, in terms of creativity and performance. At that time, there really was a production of groups talented of people. There is not only me Chen Ailian. I am representative and an outstanding figure, that is for sure. I am a dancer with more broad background in the dance world. However, there are many performers of the same generation, from different ethnicities, Han group, Zai group, Xinjiang group, Xian group, Meng group, Tibetan group. And in the dance drama, there are also a lot. As well as the small programs, such as solo dances, double dances, in addition to the collective nk dances. Now when I thi back, a lot of the dancers were very good. I think at that time, probably it was like this. When a profession just starts to develop, the people are filled with vitality and especially at that period, people thought less about money.....because I have this view, is that a real artist, if they have accomplishment, they have to be able to be lonely and peaceful. That is to be not so rich and to be not so famous. You have to this spirit and state of mind in order to produce good work. So it happens that period provided a background that didn't make us think too much about money, serving the people, ( ).....however, to be fair, from another perspective, there is not so much of this type of desire. As long as you enter and like this profession, you will probably have a lot of experience and concentration in this area. This is a important point.

00:04:40 -­‐ 00:06:51 Chen, Ailian I don't know about now...right now, a lot of people think too much about money. If they care about art, then this becomes less. In the end, you can reach a unification. However at that time, the people were under this state of mind. On the other hand, the creations of that time, the sense of purpose was more strong. Not individual purpose but the purpose of society. Like, you oing are g to express love, it's going to be noble, it's going to embody truth, goodness and beauty, right? And under this scope, they will do it. Because if you leave this scope, there is no way that it will exist. And for example, if we want to express physical labor, (body movements), then they have to express this. If they want to express 9 a theme of

三千里将山 �女�� revolution, such as (?), or . These themes also express the unity of different ethnic minorities. That year, a man who was older than me called ( ), he already died, but at that time, he ��� created a lot of works, such as ( ) . And right now, Mr. Jingming ( ), his ( ) dance, I performed it once in America, it was very well received. There were a lot, including within ballets, such as ( ), (Lotus Lantern), and Yu Meiren, this were all excellent.

00:06:51 -­‐ 00:06:58 Josh Chin So do you feel nostalgic about this?

00:06:58 -­‐ 00:08:18 Chen, Ailian I think that this is a very good road. It is a phase but it can't stop at that. It has to progress. I think about now, about contemporary and modern dance, at that time we already had contemporary and modern dance, and classical dance, ballet, we had all. But when it needs to progress towards a even more flourishing period, there was the Cultural Revolution. The period of the Cultural Revolution was also a small phase. It wasn't long or short, ten years. It's main thing is two dance dramas. That was very little. The whole country just watched eight plays. More than 白毛女 a billion ���子� people just watched eight plays. These eight plays were not bad either. And two of them were ballets. And those two ballets were pretty excellent. You can still see them now in China ( and ). This demoted all of us, we all went to the countryside to undertake physical labor. I farmed rice for three years, I was pretty good at it too.

00:08:18 -­‐ 00:08:19 Josh Chin Where?

00:08:19 -­‐ 00:10:12 Chen, Ailian In (Jiangjiakou?). It wasn't only a question of farming for three years, you also had to exercise, criticize...everyone knows this section of history. So at this time, if you are a person who has accomplished something, you were demoted, to exercise, undertake physical labor...under these circumstances, there were only two ballets. During this time, there were still dance schools, there were very little theatrical troupes, ( ) acted as a support. After ten years, we re-­‐emerged onstage. That period, when you think about it, the suppressed energy of the people for ten years was let out, you can imagine what happened (?). The energy of everyone was enormous, a lot of people practiced non-­‐stop, the passion was very very high. And at that time, the mind-­‐set was still not so concerned about money. The suppressed energy of ten years was simultaneously erupted in one moment. So during the end of the 70s till the beginning of the 80s, there was a phase of glorious creativity.

00:10:12 -­‐ 00:13:04 Chen, Ailian 10

In the past, the road of progress was suddenly cut off, that period, through endurance, afterwards after the reform and opening up, the initial stage of the reform and opening up during the end 70s and early 80s, there was greater assimilation of Western things, the scope to Western things was opened up a bit more. Before we opened up too, but it was very narrow. It was mainly towards Eastern Europe, the former Soviet Union, North Korea and so on. 文成公主 There ��� wasn't an opening up to the whole world. And at the time, the level 牡丹 of 亭artistic energy of the people, that period produced a lot of excellent works. I performed in quite a few, , (A Dream of Red Mansions). In 1984, I myself directed (Peony Pavilion). ( ) In 1984, in Guangzhou, I was the main director and acted as the main character in Peony Pavilion. And so I performed in a lot of new programs. Other troupes also produced a lot of new programs, including the troupes within the armed forces, there were dance competitions. After the Cultural Revolution, there was a national dance competition. And that produced a lot of excellent performers. There were ( ), in the armed forces they performed war scenes....it was all very excellent and the performances were very diverse, there was classical, modern, those relating to soldiers, the common people....there was a huge production of excellent works. And there was a huge production of outstanding performers. It was very very good. But at the same time, there was another side to it. This group of people were mainly due to the older generation, such as my generation or the people older than me. At the same time, there exists a condition, as I said, the dance today is all not good. However, there is a new condition.

00:13:04 -­‐ 00:16:02 Chen, Ailian The reform and opening up brought a lot of advantages. But if you are not ready.....such as now, China is developing so quickly. Isn't quick development very good? GDP, opening up, before there was nothing. The construction of many houses, factories, isn't it marvelous? House are stocked with milk and pork, good clothes....isn't it great? But it also brings about problems. Actually, these problems have emerged in the West as well. And they will also appear in our country. In fact, we have opened up so quickly. The special characteristic of our country, for example, because of the ten years of the Cultural Revolution, it drove away a lot of skilled people for transformation. And at that time, the people who were studying dance, now they make up the core strength. These people, they don't have the opportunity to learn the excellent traditional culture of Chinese dance. And during the development period from the establishment of the PRC, they were not able to have this good opportunity (?). Probably because the 京舞体 teachers who were teaching them.....anyhow, the best teachers were all sent to the countryside for physical labor. And at that time, in terms of mind-­‐set, there was also change. It is called ( ). There were many reasons. When they were studying our traditional Chinese lture, dance cu there were shortcomings in 半瓶子 this process. 醋There were shortcomings. It is very regrettable. But of course, we can redeem this. But at that time, because of this reason, they weren't very.....Chinese people have a saying: (dabbler). It wasn't e. whol If it was whole, it wouldn't be easy to scatter out, but if was not whole, it would be easier to scatter out (?). It's not so good. Under this condition, ( ) , once the country's doors opened, you can think, you yourself are only halfway. If you yourself have a lot of certainty, in the face of foreign things, you can decide. You wouldn't follow whatever there is. You say, when a person is an adult, when you say something good 11 or bad, I have to think about it. The good things n't I absorb, the bad things do absorb. Or things that are suitable to me, I would absorb. Things that are unsuitable, I wouldn't absorb. Right?

00:16:02 -­‐ 00:17:02 Chen, Ailian But if this child has not grown up, 13, 14, or 15 years old, during a time of rebellion, they still cannot figure out themselves. You tell them to do bad things, they are more (vulnerable). Things that are unsuitable for them, they will like to do. I have this sort of feeling. So at that time, when the country's doors opened, you can think, all the things of the West entered, and we were not 崇洋媚外 ready. This is also evident in other industries I think. The problem might be different though. They might not have melamine. But they have other problems. They might feel that there is a bit of (blind worship of foreign goods and ideas). Because there isn't enough of a understanding of our things, and the things that entered from the West were more mature. You think of how developed they are. Old habits. This is one.

00:17:02 -­‐ 00:19:48 Chen, Ailian Another thing is that it was fresh. The things you see too much, you don't think much of it. But things which you have not seen before and once they enter, you think that it is very fresh. And in addition, the human pursuit for the economy. this theoretical pursuit. So I think, this development, other than mainstream things which are probably better, at the same time there appears such problems. Such as in the process of passing on our dance culture, I think that are there some biases. And under such circumstances, actually in these past few years, people are beginning to sense this. Sense this type of problem. That is how to pass on our Chinese dance culture, yet at the same time absorb the excellent cultures of the East and the West. Now it is also good. Everyone's scope has opened, 百 reasoning has 花�放opened, there is more variety in terms of creativity onstage, 百花� such as in the past there were 放rules on what to 百花�放 create so the variety was much more narrow. And now, we are able to (a hundred flowers bloom: let the arts have free expression). I also hope for . But in this process of , in every country they have their own representative flower. Right? China's flower seems to be the peony. Some countries are the tulip....Japan is the cherry-­‐blossom right? So even though we are amongst a hundred flowers, we have our own national special characteristics. The most important representative....on this aspect.....everyone has been reflecting during the thirty years of reform and opening up. Right? Including our economy, industry, technology's development, everyone has been thinking over this. You talk about our theatrical troupes, this past few years, we have cultivated a lot of very very beautiful performers. Their skills are excellent. And a lot of them have received a lot of awards. And there were a lot of productions, works. It was flourishing. There was a lot. And there was also the production of a lot directors. The performers were very very beautiful. Because of the requirements. And their skills were very strong.

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00:19:48 -­‐ 00:20:43 Chen, Ailian And there were a lot of works. But I felt that everyone was reflecting. On how much we can preserve of what we have (?). If we talk about whether a work is excellent or not, if we talk about a classic such as Swan Lake, it was preserved for so many years, becoming a classic in dance. Or a work of literature. Hollywood classics are like this as well.....( ). For so many years, they are still classic works. These things, I think are not enough.

00:20:43 -­‐ 00:20:55 Josh Chin You were talking about the mind-­‐set of looking forward in terms of the economy, how does this affect the development of dance?

00:20:55 -­‐ 00:24:28 Chen, Ailian Of course there was an effect. If you think about it, for example, in addition to dance itself, the dancers, the dance teachers, there are some economic people as well. It becomes a market where there are economic people. And the economic people have their thinking, like they think this group of people like this sort of thing, then you should perform this sort of thing. Such as if you like nightclubs or some things on TV, then they follow this taste. When they follow this, for the product to enter the market.....and the market is not mature. I think that after all it is a immature market, if the market is mature, there will be a separation, of (performances for) nightclubs, dance halls, TV stations, theaters...right? And the local performances for . the people Right now, I can see that there is a creation of this division. In this process of thirty years....there is a period were it becomes like that. A really big theatrical troupe is like a nightclub, I think that this is very regrettable. Like if you are a troupe of a big country, the performances you give are like the ones you see in nightclubs of Shenzhen....that is not right. I don't think it should be like this. Now, it is not bad, our ballet troupe is still stuck to its position. ( ). If we all don't dance the ( ) and go dance the ( ) of France, that is also really good ballet training. I've seen it before. There is a lot of movement, the body shapes were beautiful. And if we only see this, then there is no ballet troupe. Then this is wrong. There should be a ballet troupe, another one....etc. Right now, work has already begun on this. And including our ( ) and return towards Chinese traditional dance, isn't everyone now following this return? The Chinese people have already begun on this. And the Chinese people abroad, including some Westerners, are also pursuing ancient China, developing China, what they are like. Everyone is finding this. So when go through the beginning of the reform and opening up period, the great development in the beginning, in the middle there was a little bit of loss and disorder I think, right now, we are trying to find our way again. To find our own Chinese national strength in which to contribute towards world dance. Because it is different. You say that I am Chinese and I can dance well in modern dance. But because you can dance well, it should be modern Chinese dance. I can't be Maree (?) and not be Chen Ailian.

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00:24:28 -­‐ 00:26:25 Chen, Ailian So I think right now, everyone is finding, returning...which is a very good phenomenon. And there are some works, as well as showing the beauty and skill of the performers, there is also more concentration upon the art itself. Upon the content. I still advocate that art should educate people. It is not the type you of education where use a stick and educate people. Like a poem strives for beauty, such as the moon and the goddess, everyone likes this. Right? Like the content of Swan Lake never changes, the kind princess falling in love with the prince, the old eagle and the fight, and good prevails over evil. I think that this is a eternal entity, all humans wish for this. But because the market is starting to enter....and when the market is not mature, because of the effects of market, this will bring in economic interests. And this will bring about problems in one's works. Such as, I like giving this example, everyone is talking about the melamine in the milk. But in the United States, the Wall Street, once it has problems, the financial crisis, they say it to, for money, to sell the soul to the devil. More serious than that (melamine in milk?). In a era, there are variants. Such as right now, everyone is finding something in the past (?).

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00:00:00 -­‐ 00:02:15 Chen, Ailian The first phase is st when we ju came back after the Cultural Revolution, after the suppression of artistic energy for so many years, it erupted in one moment. During the mid-­‐ 80s, a lot of outstanding works were produced. And at the same time, because of the opening of the country's ors, do I just said, there was another section, because there wasn't enough competence, the competence of our own country was not enough and the things coming from outside were very mature, when they came in, it cause problems in terms of decisions. Additionally, the market economy, with the market, it wasn't a strong market, only in the beginning stages, produced some ���� problems. It brought about vestiges to our dance and creativity. For the pursuit of theory. With regard to the programs, because you want something today and another thing tomorrow, there is no (to work with extreme care and precision). In addition, there are people who are in it for fame....it is hard to say. Probably sometimes, there is also dissatisfaction towards Chinese blockbuster movies. They are the dumping grounds of money. A lot of money, manpower...but when you see it, you don't know what it's about. It is baffling...going to the West search for investments, whose going to invest more? I think a lot of works, like the one in Japan of two people in the train station, it was very touching, and the setting was very small. So those who are solely looking for large investments, large settings, ( ) a lot of technology, for example, now the high-­‐technology supplements the stage, this is really good. Before it was very simple and crude, but with technology there is an added character/color, providing us with more means to create, extending the stage. But at the same time, if everything becomes this, then there will be disorder, ( ). So like this, we have went through this process.

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00:02:15 -­‐ 00:04:18 Chen, Ailian Before, there was special advocation for (weigong?), meaning that everything is ( ) personal ( ). So our works should all reflect true beauty, ( ), the people as the main subject. Revolution, to cut off everything that is bad. But afterwards, there was a reversal (?). Such as after the reform and opening up, after interaction with the West, not everything in the West is good, some things are very good and some are bad, so this is a question of choice. But when you are young, there is no strong ability to choose, so sometimes, you can choose bad things. It is all the same. Like for dance. To totally express myself. From a market perspective, you can't only express yourself. You have to see if other people would accept you right? So re the is some disorder in the process. And during this process, I think that this is a process of growth. To a certain degree, it is a process which you must go through. The thirty years of reform and opening up, thirty years is not too long. For me, my perspective as a dancer or a master dancer, thirty years old is when you actually start dancing. Dancers only start to actually dance when they are thirty years old.

00:04:18 -­‐ 00:05:17 Chen, Ailian When you are young, the lines are very good....you can't be too young either. After 17,18 years old, when you are in your 20s, the flexibility of the body is very good and beautiful, very young...but they are still performing through the limbs. The understanding of life, the stretching of a hand....there ntent, is no co cultural experience, full maturation. So I often say to them, how come you don't dance anymore, I say I started knowing how to dance when I was thirty years old. So with regard to the reform and opening up for thirty years, us, it was a very good period, it should start to mature, with better understanding of how to do better.

00:05:17 -­‐ 00:05:25 Josh Chin With regard to the future thirty years, if you think about it, what do you think about Chinese dance in the next thirty years?

00:05:25 -­‐ 00:05:41 Chen Ailian I think the next thirty years, is a thirty years filled with hope. Because we already have a very good foundation, and have been flourishing at one point in the past...

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00:00:00 -­‐ 00:00:15 Chen Ailian I think that the past thirty years have been very meaningful, they compromised our phase of growth. Once it started, there was an eruption of energy that was suppressed for ten years.

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00:00:38 -­‐ 00:02:35 Chen Ailian So these thirty years were thirty years of growth. And how to say, in the beginning, once the country opened, it gave the good conditions for reform and opening up. And after coming back from the Cultural Revolution, the suppressed energy of ten years, erupted during the period of reform and opening up. So for these years, we were very good. At the same time, there was another section as I said earlier. There was a process. The younger generation when they need to take over, problems will appear. The works after the reform and opening up, this thirty year road, for dancers and performers, I said already, thirty year old dancers and performers are the ones who begin to dance. The young ones might be pretty, with a long neck, a good figure....but they don't have their own.....it is when you reach a certain age, you have the experience of life. It is when they become mature. So thirty years is when you start dancing. And I think our thirty years of reform and opening up, going through this....eruption of energy, a bit of loss direction in the le: midd walking through curving roads, thinking too much about money, forgetting about art and other reasons as well and afterwards, people realize this problem and start to think it over themselves. And with this, they return to search for a way, to find real art, real self, real style, what is dance. In this process of searching, becoming a mature dancer. I think these thirty years were really worth going through.

00:02:35 -­‐ 00:04:27 Chen Ailian 三十而立 四十二 不惑And you just asked me about the next thirty years right? I think because we have the past thirty 五十知天命 years, we have matured into adults. Chinese 六十而智 people have a saying, 六十而��, . When you are thirty, you find 七十而从心所欲 your own things. When you reach 40, don't doubt (?). . When you are 50, you are aware of one's life span. ( ), you have wisdom when you reach 60. Of course, , 三十而立 which means whatever you do, it is great, it is correct. You wouldn't walk too many wrong roads or commit immature mistakes. So for Chinese people, these thirty years are just . It is a phase in which you set in motion. 40, 50, 60 should be the phase of maturation. And of course, when people mature, they do outstanding things. I think it should be like this. Right now, Chinese dance has a merit, which is that Chinese people love to dance. It is very easy to teach the dance students. The dance classes of the whole country which aren't professional, there are a lot of extra-­‐curricular dance classes. And in addition, the government is very supportive. Such as they are promoting ( ). Dance compromises a large part in education. So such a broad foundation, and professionals, and I think that it would be very good (in the future).

*The full-­‐length video of this interview is available in the online repository of Rutgers University Libraries: http://rucore.libraries.rutgers.edu

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