Fifth Session -Thirty-Sixth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

Official Report (Hansard)

Published under the authority of The /lonourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker

Vol. XLIX No. 47- 1:30 p.m., Monday, June 21, 1999 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature

Member Constituency Political Affiliation

ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D I' BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D I' CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.DI' CIIOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDI' CUMMINGS, Glen, lion. Ste. Rose PC DACQUA Y, Louise. lion. Seine River PC. DERKACII. Leonard, lion. Roblin-Russell PC. DEWAR,Gregory Selkirk N.DP. DOER, Gary Concordia N. llP DOWNEY,James Arthur-Virden I'.C.

DRIEDGER,Albert Steinbach PC . DRIEDGER,Myrna Charles wood P.C. DYCK,Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, lion. Lakeside P. C. EVANS,Ciif Interlake N.IJ.I'. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FAURSCIIOU,David Portage Ia Prairie PC. FILMON, Gary, lion. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GILLESIIAMMER,Harold, lion. Minnedosa P.C. IIELWER,Edward Gimli P.C. IIICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATIILIN, Oscar The Pas N.IJ.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.IH. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N. D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, lion. Brandon West PC. McGIFFORD,Diane Osborne N.O. P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC. MIIIYCIIUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D. P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank,Hon. Morris PC. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.DP. REIMER,Jack, lion. Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley, lion. St. Vital PC ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland NDP ROCAN, Denis· Gladstone I'.C. SALE, Tim Crescent wood NDP SANTOS,Conrad Broadway NDP STEFANSON, Eric, lion. Kirkfield Park I'.C STRUTHERS. Stan Dauphin ND.P PC SVEINSON, Ben La Verendryc TOEWS, Vic, lion. Rossmcrc I'C. TWEED, Mervin, lion. Turtle Mountain PC VODREY, Rosemary, lion. Fort Garry PC WOWCIIUK. Rosann Swan River Nil I' l'acant St. Boniface 3053

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, June21, 1999

The House met at 1:30 p.m. there are 130 personnel that have been deployed; at High Rock Lake, 2,800 hectares were burned, PRAYERS 165 firefighters deployed; Notigi Lake, 1,500 hectares burned, 60 firefighters have been ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS deployed; and Pikwitonei, 75-hectare tire, 55 firefighters on site and there has been little PRESENTING REPORTS BY movement of this fire yesterday, having fire STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES lines established.

Committee of Supply Extreme burning conditions are predicted for the next two days, with a fo recast fo r Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): moisture in northern Manitoba by Tuesday that Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has should assist in the suppression efforts. I think it adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report is important that we remember that the potential the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, fire conditions have become near extreme in seconded by the honourable member for some areas. Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the report of the committee be received. Lightning storms triggered several fires in the far north where we have no action obser­ Motion agreed to. vation zones. The activity and spread is being monitored, and suppression action is not MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS anticipated.

Forest Fire Conditions We have recorded 315 fires to date, Madam Speaker, and have lost an estimated 74,200 Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural hectares of fo rest land. Resources): Madam Speaker, I wish to report on fire activity over the weekend which has *(1335) increased due to several lightning storms that passed through northern Manitoba. Depart­ Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam mental staff have responded to 58 new starts Speaker, it is quite ironic that we need to stand since late Thursday afternoon and were and talk about forest fires this of all springs successful in controlling 54 of those fires. when half the province is flooding and the other Nineteen additional helicopters have been half of the province is way too hot. I thank the mobilized into the areas of concern. minister fo r bringing us an update on the fo rest fire situation in northern Manitoba, and of Yesterday several fires in and adj acent to course we wish all the best for the residents and northern communities were actioned. There the firefighters, the volunteers and people who were two fires at Split Lake, one near will be fighting fires at Duval Lake, High Rock Pikwitonei, and one near Oxford House. These Lake, Notigi Lake and up at Pikwitonei. fires were quickly contained and do not presently threaten any structures. Fire investi­ Madam Speaker, I want to encourage people gators have been dispatched to ascertain the living throughout the province to exercise cause. common sense and exercise a degree of caution, because we do know that the conditions are right Four fires are classified out of control at this right now for the establishment and the sparking time: Duval Lake, west of Kississing Lake, 360- of fires in our province. I would think that both hectare fire, lines have been established and sides of the House would encourage people to be 3054 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 very careful in their activities. Now that summer DFA applications. The Neepawa office has been has officially arrived, I know many people are open since Monday, June 14. The Disaster hoping to get out and enjoy many of the Financial Assistance program provides financial activities that we do outside in the wilderness, assistance to private residential property, fu ll­ and I would encourage people to be very time fa rmers, fu ll-time small businesses and cautious. We do not want to see what we see in nonprofit organizations when eligible costs some situations with evacuations and people's incurred as a result of a disaster exceed an houses and cabins burning up and the loss of amount deemed to be reasonable. many hectares of fo rest in our province. The maximum assistance on private claims So I appreciate the update fr om the minister is 80 percent of eligible costs to a maximum of and wish all the best to the volunteers and the $100,000 each fo r home, fa rm and business. firefighters engaged in battling the fo rest fires in Claimants awards cannot exceed the cost of northern Manitoba. Thank you very much, repair or replacement. In addition to these Madam Speaker. initiatives, MEMO plays a co-ordinating role in the activities of all provincial departments and Flooding Compensation nongovernment agencies through fr equent meetings and consultations, including represen­ Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government tation fr om the municipalities impacted by this Services): Madam Speaker, I have a statement event. for the House. Today I wish to thank the people of all the At this time I would like to make a brief departments and agencies whose diligent effo rts statement on the programs and activities of my are anticipating and responding to the needs of department in assistance to Manitobans in their our fe llow Manitobans in these very stressful recovery from flooding in western Manitoba this times. Thank you. spring. As a proactive measure to assist Manitobans in the flood-affected western Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): For some time, regions, the Manitoba Emergency Management we have been discussing the pros and cons of Organization identified the need fo r a Disaster programs designed to help farm ers and Financial Assistance program to assist in their businesses in the southwest part of our province, recovery as a result of the flooding and has and not just the southwest part of the province established flood recovery offices in Melita and but in areas such as Gilbert Plains, Grandview, Neepawa. McCreary, Neepawa. Gladstone and some parts of the southeast comer of Manitoba which have The recovery offices, which operate Monday received an inordinate amount of rain. an through Saturday from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m., provide inordinate am ount of snowfall last winter and advice and information on disaster financial have experienced all kinds of problems in assistance to the people affected by the flooding. seeding, getting their crops in. Today, of course, The offices also serve as information centres fo r we are hopeful that a package that would be fa ir services of other agencies such as the Salvation to producers will be announced. Army, Canadian Red Cross trauma, stress and financial counselling services, making possible I want to thank the Minister of Government one-stop shopping fo r those impacted by the Services for updating us on the steps which his flood. These recovery offices are similar to department are taking to help alleviate the those established during the 1997 Red River problems, the very real day-to-day problems that Valley fl ood and are located in the Manitoba occur for people living in these affected areas. I Agriculture offices at 139 Main Street, Melita, am told by people who are responsible for and at 41 Main Street in Neepawa. Inquiries can providing counselling in these areas that, as we be made in person or by telephone or fa csimile. can all understand, the stress level fo r fam ilies, Since its opening on Monday, May 31, the farm families, businesses and people living in Melita office has received over 440 telephone the affected areas is very high. One of the things inquires and visits and has distributed over 300 that really contributes a lot to the increased level June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3055 of stress is the lack of details available to people. and environmental management at the We know that there is a lot of stress involved in Department of Environment and is under the not getting your crop in on time and then direction of Dr. Daniel Ch'ang, deputy medical wondering what the eventual impact on the local officer of health, City of Port of Spain economy will be, but to add to that is the Corporation. uncertainty of not knowing what the details are of a package that has been talked about a lot but On behalf of all honourable members, I not, as of yet, implemented fo r the betterment of welcome you here today. these communities and these farm fam ilies. Also, seated in the public gallery we have I want to commend the minister for opening this afternoon fifteen Grades 7 to 9 students offices in Melita and in Neepawa to help in this fr om Darwin School under the direction of Mrs. predicament that we are in. My hope is that Lori Arne!. This school is located in the con­ would speed up the conveyance of information stituency of the honourable Minister of Energy that would be used in helping farm families and and Mines (Mr. Newman). thus reduce the amount of stress that these families are under. Again, I want to stress that Also, twenty-eight Grade 4 students fr om both farm operations and business operations in Centennial School under the direction of Mrs. these areas are very much afflicted by the lack of Karen Klassen. This school is located in the information that is being given out. constituency of the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Praznik). Finally, I want to thank, along with the minister, the people in the departments who have And, sixty Grade 5 students from Winkler worked to put together the programs that are Elementary School under the direction of Mr. available for farmers and business people in this Eckhard Klaassen and Mr. Lawrence Siemens. area of Manitoba. Thank you very much, This school is located in the constituency of the Madam Speaker. honourable member fo r Pembina. (Mr. Dyck).

* (1340) On behalf of all honourable members, welcome you this afternoon. TABLING OF REPORTS ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Hon. Mervin Tweed (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): On behalf of the honour­ Flooding able Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), I am Compensation fo r Farmers pleased to table Supplementary Information for Legislative Review fo r 1999-2000 Departmental Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Expenditures for Manitoba Agriculture. Madam Speaker, it has been reported over the weekend that the fe deral government will be Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and making an announcement dealing with the Attorney General): I would like to table the flooded farmland in southwestern and central Supplementary Information for Legislative Manitoba and in southeastern Saskatchewan. Review for 1999-2000 Departmental Expen­ Has the Premier been informed of the announce­ diture Estimates, the Department of Justice. ment? How much money will it be fo r a contingency plan for unseeded acreage, and can Introduction of Guests he report that to the House, please?

Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, would like to draw the attention of all honour­ regrettably, I cannot give any detail on the able members to the public gallery where we announcementto the Leader of the Opposition. I have with us today a delegation from Trinidad thank him fo r the question. My office and that and Tobago. The delegation is undertaking a of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) have training program in management development been endeavouring to get factual information 3056 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

from the office of the fe deral Minister of are higher than the potential relief from last Agriculture, and we have not been privileged to year's prices. What is the specific Manitoba receive that information. program, and will this program, at the end of the day, be producer fr iendly to deal with the We do have a copy of the news release immediate crisis in Manitoba? which was just issued in Estevan a short while ago, which was faxed to us. It appears as though what has been proposed in Saskatchewan, which Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I make two points about this. As we discussed it last week we assume may fo rm the basis of an announce­ and as I discussed with the farmers when I was ment in Manitoba, is that there will be a there to visit with them and met in the cabinet loosening of the triggers fo r NISA that will room with representatives of producer groups as allow fo r farmers that have built up surpluses in well as the municipal leadership of the province, NISA accounts to be able to access that money a that the farmers, even if they planted a crop, little more easily. I would indicate that from a would not get any revenue fr om this until Manitoba perspective that will have some September. So, fo r the member to shout that this positive impact in that in the southwest comer of is an immediate crisis that has to be dealt with the province there is about a hundred million today or tomorrow, what has to be done is to dollars sitting in NISA accounts to the farmer's find a way of addressing their need fo r cash flow benefit which cannot, under these circumstances, when they would normally get it by the sale of be released. It also, of course, is not likely that their crop, which would be, of course, late very much of it will be in the hands of new August or some time in September. That is what young farmers, and so that is a concern. They we have been urging Ottawa to deal with. are also calling fo r an advance payment using, as we had proposed, the AIDA fu nds, making a The proposal with respect to AIDA, and the calculation based on unseeded acres and then member knows fu ll well that we did not from the flowing approximately 60 percent of the pay­ beginning believe that AIDA was a sound ment by September, so as an advance payment program to be able to realistically impact on the on the expected allocation. So that is as much needs of our farm community, but it was his information as I can share. It is based somewhat critic the member for Swan River (Ms. on speculation, assuming that what he Wowchuk) who kept saying to us: why do you announced in Estevan may in fact also be not sign on; why do you not sign on or go into announced in Brandon. it? Everybody else is doing it.

* (1345) We were the last province to hold out in Mr. Doer: We did pull the announcement in hopes that the fe deral government would see that Estevan offthe Net, and I am surprised to hear the program has plenty of flaws. Now the that there has been no fe deral-provincial member opposite is taking the position that we negotiations fo r farmers and producers in are, that with all the flaws, it has to be fixed, communities dealing with this matter. Madam Speaker. We have been saying that right from day one, and what this does, as I Madam Speaker, I would like to also ask the understand it, is to provide for a cash flow Premier: what is the specific contingency plan mechanism, an advance payment mechanism so from the Province of Manitoba? What will the that the farmers would not have to wait until province be leading with in specific terms to they put in their income tax return next year. deal with the unseeded acreage? We have heard Under those circumstances, a 60 percent cash from Saskatchewan, at $25 out of the crop flow payment, in advance, based on an expected insurance in Saskatchewan, a specific amount of allocation with the income tax return, does make money as a contingency plan for unseeded acres. some sense and does give us what we are We know that AIDA has not been farmer­ looking fo r, which is an advance payment. It is fr iendly or producer-friendly. Very few people our understanding that the minister has indicated have accessed that program to date. Many in Saskatchewan that he hopes to have that farmers tell us that your costs fo r an accountant payment come in September, and that, too, June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3057 meets some of the recommendations that we In respect of the explanation as to why have been making to him along the way. certain calls were capable of identification, it was explained to the media on Thursday With respect to his first point about why afternoon. I provided the media with a copy of there is no negotiation, Madam Speaker, this that explanation, and I am prepared to table that government has been in touch with that minister. same explanation here again today. Our Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), who is meeting with Minister Vanclief right now in Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the word-changing Brandon, has certainly put fo rward many and buck-passing keeps continuing from this suggestions, both in writing and verbally, to the minister. This is a document from the Depart­ minister. But the minister has chosen to make ment of Justice mailed to 100,000 Manitobans the decisions on his own. Even though 40 by the fo rmer Minister of Justice and the present percent of the money is provincial government Premier (Mr. Filmon). This promise, basically, money, he has chosen to make the decision Take Back the Streets-no, that was this year's unilaterally as opposed to through consultation promise. On the Street Peace program, 100,000 and discussion. That is not something with brochures state, and I quote: Your call is which we are particularly happy. confidential. No call is traced or displayed.

* (1350) I would like to ask the Premier: is he holding his Minister of Justice accountable fo r Gang Hotline breaching a promise to 100,000 people and Anonymity breaching the integrity and confidentiality of the gang hotline? If he is going to be tough on Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): gangs, take action on his Minister of Justice. Madam Speaker, with a new question to the First Minister. On Tuesday, June 15, on the 17th of Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as far as I am June, on 18th of June and again on the weekend, aware, all calls for assistance or information we have had more contradictory stories and since the province took this line over in terms of statements and lines from this so-called Minister clearing the information on or about May 10, of Justice than we had from Taras Sokolyk about 1999, have been handled on an appropriately the vote-rigging inquiry. Contradiction after confidential level. I would say, however, with contradiction. the exception of some cans made from a specific exchange, indeed the calls ofthe memberfor St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), there was in fact a I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. capability of identifying those hang-up calls Filmon): what is the status of the situation on where there was simply a hang-up in that the confidentiality of the gang hotline, given it particular situation. was his promise back in 1994, and what action is he taking with his Minister of Justice that Madam Speaker, I am not aware of any obviously has breached the promise the Premier other calls where there was a similar capability. made to the people of Manitoba? As far as I am aware, all calls fo r assistance or information since the province took this over on Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and or about May 10, 1999, have been handled on an Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I am appropriately confidential basis. advised that as a result of an internal review by one of my staff members, the province took over Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, this promise was the clearing of the line of information and made in 1994. This is a promise made by the fo llowing up with any necessary action. The fo rmer Minister of Justice as part of a previous province took over this fu nction on or about pre-election campaign. Sergeant John Eyer in a May 10, 1999. Prior to that date, the City of wire service story stated that anonymity is a Winnipeg Police Service cleared the line of cornerstone of Crime Stoppers program: information and fo llowed up with any necessary Confidentiality is crucial. We go out of our way action. to make sure we don't know who you are. I 3058 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2I, I999 think you should do as you promise to do on Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and confidentiality. Attorney General): Madam Speaker, when I was first questioned by the media outside of the The minister is stating today that that did not House on Thursday, I indicated that I would be happen. His contradictions last week mean that looking into the matter. Indeed, I held a press we do not believe him very much, and why conference later on that afternoon after I had should we? I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. received what I considered to be the fu ll and Filmon): given other precedents in other complete details of this matter, and I provided provinces, will you be removing your Minister that on I believe it was the Thursday after I had of Justice and find out why your promise of given the explanation. confidentiality to I 00,000 people was breached and how we can restore the integrity of other So I do not agree with the comments fr om lines to ensure that all of us as citizens can do the member fo r St. Johns, and I have tabled the what we can to prevent crime and be backed up explanation that my staff had provided. by an honest government? Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, how is Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as indicated anyone supposed to believe this minister who earlier, the disclosure of the calls made from the says, first of all, that this whole problem was not office of the member fo r St. Johns, whether his mistake, it was the City of Winnipeg? Then those were calls made by people other than him, on Friday he comes back on open-line radio and as he first stated last Tuesday or whether he says that his department was running this line. I made them himself as he confirmed last would say no one is running this line, but how Thursday, should not have been referenced by can the minister continue in this position with me in the House. That is clear. these inconsistencies?

However, as far as 1 am aware, all calls fo r Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I am advised that, assistance or information since the province took as a result of an internal review by one of my this over on or about May 10, I999, have been staff members, the province took over the handled on an appropriately confidential basis. function of clearing the line of information and fo llowing up with any necessary action. The * (1355) province took this function over on or about May 10, and prior to that date the Winnipeg Gang Hotline Police Service cleared the line of information Anonymity and fo llowed up with any necessary action.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Mr. Mackintosh: Well, another whopper, Minister of Justice: after the minister was Madam Speaker. How are Manitobans to trust caught both tracing calls, at least to 9-4-5 these people when the minister says that they numbers, and then, second, breaching confiden­ fo und out just a fe w days ago that calls were tiality of the gang hotline contrary to the govern­ being traced, and then records on Friday indicate ment's promise, I 00,000 wallet-size cards, this that the department knew going back at least to was only the first of seven inconsistencies, and I May 10 that this department directly was tracing am being generous with that term, from this calls, and those calls were languishing since minister. The minister gave two explanations December of I998? Boy, that is tough on crime, then. He said, first of all, that the government is it not? was trying to monitor and prevent internal abuse; in other words, it was a planned tracing. Then, Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I understand that later, he said it was a technical glitch; it was a on May 10 the department went in to clear the mistake. lines of those calls. Prior to that date, the responsibility for doing that had been with the My question to the minister is this: how are Winnipeg Police Service, and I understand that Manitobans ever to believe these people? What the police chief has offered some explanation in a tangled web they weave. respect of that issue. They have indicated that June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3059 the line had been of limited use and that Premier to step in, considering that in 1995 his emergency calls were rerouted for assistance. fo rmer minister talked about the province's efforts? The young people said they would So the department, in fact, commenced prefer anonymity. The information to this House discussions with the City of Winnipeg in order is it is taken off the youth gang line very to determine what, in fact, needs to be done with regularly, as stated by the fo rmer minister. that particular line. All I can indicate is that the province took over the fu nction on May 10, The contradictory statements are legion. 1999. am asking the Premier to step in and do some­ thing to restore integrity to the justice system of With respect to the calls made from the the province of Manitoba. office of the member for St. Johns, as I have indicated, those calls should not have been Mr. Toews: Until May 10, 1999, the fu nction referenced by me in the House. of clearing that line was in fact the responsibility of the Winnipeg Police Service. The Province of * (1400) Manitoba did in fact fund that particular line. I understand then, as a result of an internal review Minister of Justice by one of my staff members, the province took Resignation Request over the function of clearing that line of infor­ mation and following up with any appropriate Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam information. As far as I am aware, all calls for Speaker, my question is to the First Minister assistance or information since the province took (Mr. Filmon). this over on or about May 10, 1999, have been handled on an appropriately confidential basis. Despite the minister's protestations, what this government has done to the fight of Mr. Chomiak: My final supplementary to the organized crime and gang crime has set it back Premier (Mr. Filmon). Despite the fact that, in many, many years, despite what the minister cases fo r five months, calls have gone tries to weasel out of in terms of his words in unanswered on the line, despite all of those this House. The breaching of confidentiality, the issues, it is clear that the gang line's integrity is contradictory statements have destroyed the jeopardized, not the least by which-and I am credibility of this government, if they had any, quoting Jacques Lemieux, national co-ordinator on fighting gangs. of the Criminal Intelligence Service who said, quote: security breaches can have dire I want to ask the First Minister: given the consequences for callers when it comes to gang serious situation his Justice minister has put activity. himself in, would the Premier consider doing the honourable thing and asking his minister to step My question to the Premier is: if you take aside in order to restore integrity to the system criminal and gang activities seriously, how can and allow a review to take place to ensure that you allow this to go on when the integrity of the some credibility goes back into the adminis­ entire gang effort is called into question and tration of justice in the province ofManitoba? compromised by the actions of your minister and your department? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I do in fact know that the Mr. Toews: I do not intend to get into the entire Estimates process is coming up and that I am in aspect of the programs that our department has fact available to questioning by members taken very successfully in respect of gang opposite on this particular issue and other issues initiatives. I do, however, want to say that, since that relate to the fu nctioning of the department. the province took over the clearing of the line on or about May 10, 1999, there have been a Mr. Chomiak: How does the Premier (Mr. number of conversations among staff and with Filmon) allow his minister to try to wriggle out the Winnipeg Police Service regarding the of it when the honourable thing would be fo r the continued operation of the line. I am advised 3060 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2I, I999 that staff will be coming to a conclusion on that will he not recognize how serious the breach issue and indeed making recommendations on made by this Justice minister is then, not only in this matter in due course. terms of the credibility and integrity of this minister but a program where they sent I 00,000 Minister of Justice leaflets out in the province, guaranteeing Resignation Request anonymity? Why will the Premier not take action? Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): After II years, a lot of Manitobans just do not trust this Mr. Toews: As far as I am aware, as I have government anymore, and if there is any indicated earlier, all calls fo r assistance or for indication, it is the complete lack of response information since the province took this over on today from the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to the or about May 1 0 of this year have been handled numerous questions we have asked about the on an appropriately confidential basis. The integrity of the justice system. Let no one under­ reason why certain hang-up calls were able to be estimate the importance and significance of what identified has been addressed by MTS, and that this minister did. On Tuesday last week he chose ability to identify hang-up calls no longer exists. to release confidential information in this House. He denied that on Thursday, but in statements to Mr. Ashton: A final supplementary. I want to the media on Thursday and Friday, he has now again ask the Premier of this province how he confirmed that he did indeed release confidential expects anyone to believe anything he says now information in the House. This has compromised on crime. You know, all those ads about getting the integrity of this particular line. tough with gangs, but in I994 he promised a confidential gang hotline and this minister I want to ask the First Minister why he will breached that confidentiality in this House last not apply the same kind of code of conduct that Tuesday, this minister who should resign, even Mike Harris in Ontario applied when Mr. Madam Speaker. Runciman, a Tory cabinet minister, also breached confidential information. Why will this Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as I indicated First Minister not remove the Minister of Justice earlier, with the exception of a number of calls p-ing investigation of misconduct? that were made from the member for St. Johns' (Mr. Mackintosh) office, the province did not Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and have the capability of identifying any Attorney General): In respect of the disclosure anonymous calls made where there was simply a of that information, I have indicated that I should hang-up without leaving any further information. not have referred to those particular calls being I am advised, and as far as I am aware, that the made, even the fact of them being made. I calls for assistance or information since the appreciate that. province took this over on about May IO, I999, have been handled on an appropriately I do indicate that-and this perhaps needs confidential basis. I would also again reiterate some clarification. The member fo r St. Johns what the police chief just said recently, that this (Mr. Mackintosh) indicated that he did not make line has been of very limited use and emergency any telephone call, and he stated that at page calls when they were in fact rerouted fo r 2778 of Hansard. On Thursday, in fact, the assistance. member specifically said that those were his calls. I indicated at that time that was the first Gang Hotline admission by anyone of making a call. The Anonymity point is that the matter should not have been brought forward by me in the House. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, on several occasions the Minister of Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I want to ask the Justice has made reference to "appropriately Premier (Mr. Filmon) again, who is supposedly confidential." The question that we have for the still responsible for the operation of government Minister of Justice is: in his definition of in this province, not his Minister of Justice: why "appropriately confidential," does that then mean June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3061 that anyone who is calling in to the gang line question to the minister is: is he content with today has absolutely no fe ar of the government that particular report, and if so, will he table it? being able to track or get or find out who it is If not, will he now call fo r what we have been that is calling in to that particular line? Is th'lt calling for, an independent investigation into the the case? And if that is not the case, can the whole breach of the security for standards minister or this government give that assurance exams? that people today do have the ability to make that phone call and not be traced in any fashion Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education whatsoever? and Training): Madam Speaker, the report to which the honourable member refers was Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and received in my office late on Friday afternoon. I Attorney General): I thank the member for that have spent a good part of this morningreviewing question. I am advised that MTS in fact has that report, as has my deputy minister and legal addressed that particular problem to ensure that counsel. It is safe to say, because it was confidentiality, the issue, of course, of phoning previously acknowledged by Mr. Brian O'Leary, the phone line. If a person leaves their name and that the report confirms his wrongdoing in that number and requests assistance, obviously that is he, Mr. O'Leary, breached the security protocol going to be answered by someone and will be of the test, potentially compromising test fo llowed up by someone, so that is still then security. That much I can comment on. being handled in an appropriately confidential way. There are-[interjection] I can do that because Mr. O'Leary acknowledged it himself. * (1410) We have yet to hear from the honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) about this Mr. Lamoureux: Was the minister unaware matter, the Leader of the New Democratic Party, that the calls to the gang action line were who says that if his campaign manager were to confidential, and if so, can he explain why his do wrong he, that being the Leader of the office then had tracked these calls in the first Opposition, would resign. Now we await word place? from the Leader of the Opposition on that matter. Having said that he would resign if this Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, when the type of thing happened, we await word from particular staff member went in to clear those him. But there are matters that relate- lines, the particular staff member simply did a clerical function, that is, recorded all the Madam Speaker: Order, please. information that was there. In the case of some hang-up calls, and the only ones that I am aware Point of Order of are the ones from the member fo r St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), there was able to be an Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, on a point identification by the automatic downloading of of order. I have been patiently listening to the the prerecorded name that is put onto the voice minister. Beauchesne's is fairly clear, indicating mail system. So that was in fact as explained that relevancy is somewhat important. There here. Now that clearly should not have was a specific question. occurred, and that has in fact been addressed by MTS. An Honourable Member: 417. Education System Standards Testing Breach Mr. Lamoureux: Beauchesne's 417, the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) tells me, to Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam assist you. Unfortunately, I do not have it right Speaker, with a different question for the in front of me. But the point is I do believe there Minister of Education. I trust that the minister is an obligation fo r the Minister of Education has now had the opportunity to review the report either to answer the specific question that was from the Seven Oaks School Division. My put: is the minister content with the report, or 3062 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

are we going to see an independent trust. This Minister of Justice no longer has the investigation? confidenceof many members of this House or, I would suggest, the respect of many citizens. His Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of betrayal of the confidence of the hotline and his Education, on the same point of order. many twists and turnsas he avoids responsibility for his action have clearly lost him that trust. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, it had been my intention to be relevant to the question. I thought I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) that I was dealing with the very specific points to be accountable in the fu ll parliamentary raised-points plural-in the question by the manner for a minister who has betrayed that trust honourable member, points related to the report and to conduct an investigation and to report that we referred to, the fact that I am reviewing back to this House while the minister stands the matter with a view to answering further the aside. questions raised by the honourable member, questions such as whether there ought to be Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and something else happen or whether I will table it Attorney General): With the exception of in the House. some of the calls that were made on a specific exchange, and that is a government exchange Madam Speaker: Order, please. I believe the and a voice mail system, the province did not minister is responding to the question now and have any capability of identifying any anony­ not speaking to the point of order. mous calls made where there was simply a hang­ up without leaving any fu rther information. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Inkster, I would agree As I have indicated earlier, the disclosure of that the honourable minister did ramble away the calls made from the office of the member fo r from the specific points of the question, and I St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), whether they were would ask the minister to keep his remarks made by staff or whether they were made by relevant to the question asked and to quickly himself as he first indicated and then later complete his response. indicated, should not have been referenced by

*** me in this House. However, I am aware and I have been advised that all other calls fo r assistance or information have been acted on in Mr. McCrae: accept that ruling, Madam an appropriately confidential manner. Speaker. Ms. Friesen: I would like to ask the Minister of There are other issues, related issues, Justice why it is he continues to evade his ancillary issues surrounding this whole matter, parliamentary obligations by telling us it was the issues related, for example, to the grievance city's fau lt; it was the police's fault; it was his arbitration in which one Mr. Treller is involved. staffs fa ult. Why is it from this government I am getting some legal advice about that, there is blame everywhere, and we have a because I think that it would be my wish to make Minister of Justice and a Premier who are public the report. But there are certain processes accountable to none? That is what it is about. in place and in progress, the outcome of which ought not to be jeopardized in the same way that An Honourable Member: Afraid to call the Mr. O'Leary jeopardized the test system in election, afraid to face the truth. Manitoba.

Minister of Justice Mr. Toews: The member fo r Thompson makes Resignation Request a good point. Ultimately, I am responsible to the electorate in the constituency of Rossmere, and I Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): The Minister of will- Justice of every province in this country must be the bearer of truth and the guardian of public Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3063

Madam Speaker: Order, please. corrected as a result of MTS making the necessary change to the system. Mr. Toews: And I do indicate, and I have stated it in answer to earlier questions today, I should Mr. Mackintosh: Well, aside from the seven not have referenced those phone calls that were whoppers and the breach of confidentiality, can made from the office of the member fo r St. the minister explain-if we are to believe these Johns (Mr. Mackintosh). Ultimately, Madam words of the fo rmer Minister of Justice about the Speaker, I am responsible to this House and to gang hotline that it is, and I quote, extremely the electorate in the constituency of Rossmere. helpful, a very important tool, individuals find it very useful, and as I quote, another successful * (1420) anticrime initiative, why is it that after the Gang Hotline election and in the face of ballooning, Anonymity skyrocketing and dangerous gang activity, this governmentwalks away from it? Can he explain Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the that negligence? Minister of Justice, who I hope never runs a witness protection program, I want to quote the Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, in respect sergeant who supervises Winnipeg Crime to the issue of gang violence, this department Stoppers who says: Anonymity is the comer­ and this government has taken numerous steps to stone of Crime Stoppers worldwide, and we go ensure and limit the activities of gangs. Indeed, to some lengths to protect that. The head of the from statistics that I referred to in this House Criminal Intelligence Service of Canada who earlier, 385 identified gang members are in fact said: security breaches can have dire con­ incarcerated. In respect of the number of gang sequences fo r callers when it comes to gang members, as the member knows, the number of activity involving bikers. We know how bikers confirmed gang members in the province from operate. If they find out who gave the infor­ the Winnipeg Police Service is approximately mation, their weapon of choice is intimidation. 601.

My question to the minister is: does he not Gang Hotline understand how he has undermined not just Anonymity criminal intelligence on gang activity in Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Winnipeg but he has undermined every call line Speaker, I want to address my question again to and the criminal intelligence of this government? the Premier (Mr. Filmon), because it is totally inappropriate for a minister in this case to be Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and answering questions that relate directly to the Attorney General): As I have indicated earlier, integrity of this minister, whether he should in as fa r as I am aware, all calls for assistance for fa ct even remain as a minister of the Crown. I information since the province took this over on want to ask the Premier if the minister's oath about May 10, 1999, have been handled on an means anything and in fact whether the First appropriately confidential basis. I understand Minister has any concerns whatsoever about the that the ability to identify the hang-up calls that fa ct that this Minister of Justice has com­ came from the member for St. Johns have been promised a significant part of his ability to corrected as a result of the MTS making the perform in that role because he chose last necessary change to the system. So I am willing Tuesday to come in this House and breach the to take my share of the responsibility for even confidentiality of the supposedly confidential referencing the fa ct that there were- hotline. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as I have Madam Speaker: Order, please. indicated earlier, I should not have referenced those particular calls. But, in fa ct, as I am Mr. Toews: As I was stating, Madam Speaker, aware, any calls, any genuine calls fo r assistance the ability to identify a hang-up call has been or information since the province took over the 3064 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 line on May 10, 1999, have been handled on an rise in the House today to speak about my appropriately confidential basis. government's recent initiatives in the area of welfare reform. These are important initiatives Minister of Justice that will benefit social assistance recipients and Resignation Request their children fo r years to come. Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam On Friday, we announced $1.2 million in Speaker, I will try to get the Premier to answer a funding aimed at getting young Manitobans off question. The Premier has no problem appearing welfare by helping them stay in school, taking on TV on paid ads every night talking about parenting courses, receiving training and finding justice and gangs, but he will not stand up in the jobs. A Leamfare program will be aimed at House and try to defuse the situation, explain the minors aged 16 to 17 years of age. As of situation his Minister of Justice finds himself in. January 2000, certain conditions will have to be met for these people to receive income I would like to ask the Premier: does the assistance. Able-bodied young adults without Premier not recognize that all of the claims and children will be required to attend school, be in promises since 1995, all of your heavy-priced training or be employed in order to receive their paid TV ads, the very nature of all of the employment and income assistance. Should an confidential lines in the province of Manitoba individual in this category fa il to comply with are in jeopardy because of the breach of these terms, their benefits will be terminated. confidentiality by your minister and the confusing stories and the seven or so contra­ Able-bodied young adults with children will dictions? Will the Premier not do the right thing be required to take parenting courses. If their today, stand up and ask his minister to step aside child is over six months of age, they will be while they investigate this issue for the benefit required to go to school to receive their benefits. of all Manitobans? Where no fam ily supports exist, governmentwill Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and provide assistance to cover child and trans­ Attorney General): Indeed, I can indicate that portation. Young adults who do not comply it was as a result of an internal review by one of with these conditions will see their benefits my staff members that the province took over reduced, but any funds deducted will be held in a the function of clearing the line. There were, I fund that a special support unit will administer to understand, some concerns about the operation meet their child's needs. of the line, and as a result, other conversations have taken place between staff members and the These initiatives will help us to engage in Winnipeg city police. I know that staff are meaningful early interventions and help prevent looking at the operation of the line and will long-term welfare dependency. We want young come to a conclusion and recommendations for Manitobans to realize the importance of me in respect of the operation of that line. As education in the overall quality of their lives and the police themselves have indicated, in recent the lives of their children. The best way for years the line has been of limited use. them to improve their standing in life is to obtain Emergency calls, however, I might stress, were education and training so they can provide for appropriately routed for assistance. themselves and their fam ilies. We also want to see that young Manitobans with children are Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has learning how to be good parents. The effects of expired. these initiatives will be fe lt for years to come. I commend my government fo r this significant * (1430) and logical approach to a very real concern. Thank you, Madam Speaker. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Income Assistance Reforms Aboriginal Solidarity Day

Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Madam Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to Speaker, aboriginal people regard this day as a June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3065

day of meditation, prayer and reflection, a day in The Swedish Baptist Church was established the aboriginal world as the first in the new year. at Norris Lake in 1907 and served the people of Modem-day terminology, of course, regards this the area until 1967, when the building was day as the summer solstice or the longest day of relocated. The settlers were also involved in the year. establishing the Norris School, the Westerham School, MacFarlane School, and also the Carlsborg School, which were completed For centuries, First Nations people have between 1909 and 1916. As time went on, the prayed to the Great Spirit or the Creator and also schools were eventually closed and students what is referred to as the Four Worlds, these from the area began attending classes in Teulon. being, of course, the animal world, the plant The creation of the schools and the church were world, the earth world and the human world, for a very important part of building communities. all these fo ur are interdependent on each other: By marking their history, we are also able to our Mother Earth for what she provides for us mark the progression of settlement in this area. each and every day; our Grandfather, the plant world, fo r the medicines to cure illnesses that So I would just like to take this opportunity sometimes plague our people; and as well our to again congratulate those involved in erecting brothers and sisters of the animal world, the this cairn. Through their efforts, future genera­ four-legged world, that provide us with tions will have a better appreciation of the sustenance; and our reliance on our fe llow Swedish settlers of the Norris Lake area. Thank human beings to side with each other in a time you, Madam Speaker. of need. Greenway School Many of our people have lost their way in the big world, but yet many still remain true to Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam their traditional teachings of the elders. It is for Speaker, today I rise to talk about one of our this reason that we celebrate with other local schools, Greenway School, which was aboriginal people throughout North America and recently rebuilt. Built anew in 1996, we had the indigenous peoples throughout the world a day official openings. Unfortunately, that brand-new of solidarity, so that such experiments like school site sits on a yard space that is probably residential schools and assimilation attempts like half of what we would consider standard for the exportation of aboriginal children to foreign schools that are being built today. Living in an countries will no longer occur in our future. established neighbourhood in the core of the city means that sometimes there have to be compromises. So today on behalf of my colleagues, my Leader in the official opposition, I rise to salute the contributions made by aboriginal people in Now we have an opportunity to rectify some this country, this being Aboriginal Solidarity of those unfaimesses by looking at expanding Day. Thank you. that site. It is an unusual circumstance that we have the demolition of an established building, Norris Lake Cairn but that is exactly what happened. Adjoining Greenway School, Canadian Linen has been Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, demolished, and that yard site is now vacant and I recently attended a special ceremony at Norris available for sale. I have urged the government Lake Cemetery to unveil a cairn dedicated to the to look into this situation, allow the 600 children Swedish settlement in this area northwest of who use that yard space a little bit more land and Teulon. The first Swedish settlers arrived at have more parity with the schools being built in Norris Lake over 100 years ago and began to St. Vital, in Linwood, in other parts of the build their homes and communities. The cairn province and in this city. The window is open that was erected at Norris Lake recognizes a for a very short time in neighbourhoods where church and several schools built by these early land is in high demand, and the opportunity settlers. exists today. 3066 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2I, I999

I urge the government to take special McAlpine), that the composition of the Standing measures so that we can compensate those 600 Committee on Public Utilities and Natural children who use that school daily. In fact, the Resources be amended as fo llows: the member school division has had to put additional costs fo r River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe) for the and maintenance into that small yard site so that member for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh). the grass will survive the use by the community. In addition, the school sits in an area that is short Motion agreed to. of green space. So I urge the government to do the right thing, move on this quickly and expand House Business the yard site for Greenway School. Thank you. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House NHL Stanley Cup Leader): Madam Speaker, a number of bits of information on House business. First of all, I Mr. Denis Rocan (Gladstone): It gives me would ask if you could canvass the House to see great pleasure to rise before the House this if there is a willingness to waive private afternoon and offer my congratulations to members' hour fo r today, of course being on the Carman's Eddie Belfour, Winnipeg's Mike understanding that we will be using Thursday Keane and all of their team mates on the Dallas morningfo r Private Members' Business. Stars for their victory Saturday night and capturing hockey's holy grail, the Stanley Cup. The six-game final series of the Stanley Cup did Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent not come without a hard fight for the Buffalo of the House to waive private members' hour Sabres and Manitoba's James Patrick. I today with the understanding that we will have congratulate the Sabres and Patrick on their private members' hour Thursday morning? success this season and fo r a tremendous effort [agreed] in the finalseries. Mr. Praznik: Secondly, the opposition House Saturday night's game was the second­ leader and I are working out ministers and critics longest game in Stanley Cup final history, for a series of committee meetings involving a lasting more than 114 minutes. Manitoba's own number of annual reports, and although we have Eddie "the Eagle" Belfour's performance finalized one or two of them, I look to the throughout the playoffs and the final game was opposition House leader. I understand there are outstanding. "The Eagle" completely shut out still one or two more of the committee hearings the Sabres in game five and stopped 53 of 54 to be matching ministers and critics, and then we shots in game six. Having spent II years in the will be making an announcement for a series of league, this is Belfour's first Stanley Cup and is Tuesday morningcommit tee meetings. I hope to well deserved and well earned. Mike Keane be able to do that tomorrow or the next day. becomes the ninth player in the league to win three Stanley Cups with three different teams. Keane played all 23 games in the post season. Thirdly, Madam Speaker, I would ask if you His hard-hitting, rough-and-tumble style helped would find if there is consent of the House for lead his team to victory. the Estimates of Consumer and Corporate Affairs to be considered in the Chamber on com­ Please join me in congratulating Manitoba's pletion of Executive Council today. Executive Eddie Belfour, Mike Keane and James Patrick Council is scheduled fo r here. Should that be for their tenacious efforts throughout the completed, is there unanimous agreement? playoffs and the final series, and offer a special congratulation to Carman's Eddie "the Eagle" on his firstStanley Cup. Thank you very much. .. (1440)

ORDERS OF THE DAY Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to allow the Estimates fo r Committee Changes Consumer and Corporate Affairs to be Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded considered in the Chamber upon the conclusion by the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. of the Estimates of Executive Council? [agreed] June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3067

Mr. Praznik: Secondly, Madam Speaker, again time in two decades where there has been a the consent of the House for the Estimates of the decline in the number of welfare recipients. Department of Highways and Transportation to be considered in Room 255 on completion of the The new policy initiatives I have recently Legislative Assembly Estimates. announced will help sustain and expand on the success of our previous reforms, the first being Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent work before welfare. When able-bodied of the House for the Estimates of the Department individuals apply for assistance, they will firstbe of Highways and Transportation to be con­ directed to job opportunities. Family Services sidered in Room 255 upon completion of the will provide employment referrals and other Estimates of the Legislative Assembly? [agreed] supports to help people find work. They must then show proof of their job search efforts prior Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, fo r the infor­ to being eligible for assistance. During this mation of all members, consideration of the period, Family Services will provide assistance Estimates of Family Services will continue in in emergency situations. Room 254. Next, work for welfare: Every person I would then move, seconded by the capable of working must make a contribution as honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. a condition of receiving income assistance. All Gilleshammer), that Madam Speaker do now clients will be required to contribute up to 35 leave the Chair and that this House resolve itself hours of community service each week, with into a committee to consider of the Supply to be contributions varying on capacity to work and granted to Her Most Gracious Majesty. availability of placements. Participating will be mandatory. Exemptions include single parents COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY with children under six, the disabled, and the (Concurrent Sections) aged. Community organizations and munici­ palities will identify projects and then provide FAMILY SERVICES direction and supervision of those projects, such as cleaning up graffiti, sidewalk and street Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, cleaning, participating on neighbourhood crime please. Will the Committee of Supply please patrols and school patrols, or assisting lower­ come to order. This afternoonthis section of the income seniors or disabled persons. Recipients Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will will only be assigned to school and senior resume consideration of the Estimates of the projects afterbackground checks are conducted. Department of Family Services. Community mobilization initiative: I am When the committee last sat, the honourable pleased to indicate that our Premier (Mr. Minister of Family Services had commenced her Filmon) will personally be writing to community opening statement. The honourable Minister of and business leaders to request a voluntary Family Services has 52 minutes remaining. The commitment from them and their staff to act as honourable minister, to continue her opening advisors and mentors to people on welfare. Such statement. mentors could provide welfare clients with valuable advice on resume writing, interview Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family preparation, and in making business contacts. In Services): Mr. Chairperson, I will just begin at addition, the Premier will be asking for the start of the last paragraph I was reading when volunteers to work on community group projects we finished lasttime. with welfare recipients.

Since our government began reforming the Incentives to work: To help people make welfare system in 1996, the caseload for clients the transition from welfare to work, Manitoba participating in welfare reform has dropped by currently offers drug, dental, and optical benefits 9,900. This means that more than 18,300 people to single parents and disabled clients who leave supported by welfare have leftthe rolls, the first welfare fo r employment. Coverage is currently 3068 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

available for up to one year. To make sure Parenting is the most important responsibility in people can keep on working under this initiative, our society. Those parents with addictions face benefits will be extended from 12 to 18 months. great challenges, and our government is committed to helping them help themselves, Program Compliance: Our government is which ultimately helps their children. After all, also committed to ensuring that assistance gets for addicted parents on welfare, how they can to those in need. Abuse of the system is not support their children when they are also acceptable. Our past efforts to target abuse, such supporting an addiction? We want to ensure we as our welfare fraud line, specialized inves­ are doing everything possible to get the support tigators, preintake orientation sessions, and and treatment services to parents in need to expanded information sharing agreements, have change that. been successful. To build on that success, we are taking steps to do even more. We are going Prior to the province taking over the City of to intensify efforts by introducing a parental Winnipeg's welfare system, the city required its support maintenance enforcement unit, a clients without children who had a chemical housing investigator, enhanced enrollment inves­ dependency to attend a treatment program. The tigations, and income and asset investigators. city would terminate benefits if the client did not attend. Upon implementation of one tier in April, I would again like to point out that these the Department of Family Services adopted this new initiatives will not apply to the disabled, policy, and we are taking steps to ensure that we single parents with children under six, and the are more aggressively encouraging addictive aged. clients to get treatment.

While some of these initiatives will take While parents with addictions will also be effect immediately, the work for welfare and included in this initiative, their benefits will not Program Compliance components will begin to be terminated fo r noncompliance. Our first be phased in this fall. priority will be the safety and security of children. We will exhaust every effort to ensure Over the years, we have implemented connection to early intervention initiatives. In several early intervention and prevention the case of continued refusal of treatment, Child initiatives that work toward ensuring our and Family Services will be asked to put the children get off to a good start in life. necessary safeguards in place to ensure that children are not placed at risk. EarlyStart focuses on prevention and is designed to provide three years of early * (1500) intervention with children ages two to five to help ensure that they are ready to learn when It is estimated that funding will provide they reach school age. treatment to approximately a hundred parents each year. In most cases, treatment will be BabyFirst is a community-based, early provided during the day while children are in childhood program for children from birth to school. For parents with young children, three years of age. It emphasizes positive additional fu nding has been set aside fo r the parenting, enhanced child-parent interaction, and child daycare program and overnight care. improved child health and development. The Depending on the needs of each client and the Women and Infant Nutrition Program helps meet severity of the dependency, the treatment may the nutritional needs of pregnant women and include residential detoxification, day program­ children under one year of age. ming to address the addiction and ongoing support services to help clients improve their life Another of my recent announcements builds skills, prepare to look for a job and find work. on our past efforts. The provision of an additional $500,000 each year to create more Our government knows that it is difficult to spaces for addictions treatment provides new be a teen parent. We also know that dropping hope for Manitobans, particularly parents. out of school increases the risk that they wiii fall June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3069 into the trap of welfare dependency. Effective or prepare for work. Under this new initiative, January of 2000, teen parents aged 16 and 17 young adults under 18 on welfare must go to years on welfare will be required to take school, go through a more structured and parenting courses. Those with a child over six intensive job preparation and job search effort, months will be required to attend school as well. or do community service. If an individual Where there are no family supports, government refuses to comply, welfare benefits will be will provide additional assistance for such things terminated. We are also continuing to invest as child care and transportation. resources to help people find and keep work, especially single parents. These initiatives If a young parent with a child over six complement our Making Welfare Work strategy, months refuses to continue his or her schooling, which has resulted in many more people welfare benefits will be reduced on a graduated working and lower income assistance caseloads. scale. Sanctions include reducing payments by $50 per month fo r the first three months and by In 1999-2000, our government will invest a $100 per month after that. Any money deducted total of $6.5 million in making welfare work will be placed in a fund to be administered by a programs to help Manitobans make the transition staffperson of a special support unit and will be from welfare to work, including such programs used for items which will benefit the child and as Taking Charge!, Community Services ensure that his or her needs are being met. Projects, Rural Jobs Project, and Opportunities for Employment. The special support unit will be established to work with young parents to both encourage We will continue to work in partnership continuation of their schooling as well as to with other jurisdictions to improve the situation ensure that their children are not being put at of lower income families and children. As part risk. Our government will be providing $1.2 of this co-operative work, the first phase ofthe million toward providing such things as National Child Benefit was successfully parenting programs, child care, transportation, launched in the past year and has been training services and staff fo r the special support recognized throughout the country as a good unit. start in addressing child poverty.

We want young Manitobans to gain an This national initiative is the product of a education and be better parents so they are able co-ordinated effort involving the federal, to care and provide for their children in the years provincial, and territorial governments. It has ahead. This is not about forcing youth to go to the commitment of governments of all political school as much as it is about ensuring youth stripes to work together to develop and expand recognize the importance of an education, both programs which prevent and reduce the depth of to them and their children. After all, if a parent child poverty and promote attachment to the is not prepared to help themselves, how are they workforce. We will continue to encourage the going to be able to help their children? federal government to remain an active partner in addressing child poverty by significantly By reaching out to these young people and enhancing its investment to the National Child by putting supports in place to help them stay in Benefitin the future. school and gain an education, we believe we can help more Manitobans stay on the road to self­ In 1999-2000, Manitoba will be increasing sufficiency, instead of falling into the trap of spending fo r children, youth, and their families dependency. Young adults 16 and 17 years of by $25 million, of which $11 million will be in age without children will be obligated to go back initiatives which qualify under the National to school, be in training or do community service Child Benefit. Anticipated recoveries under the as a condition of receiving employment and National Child Benefit, which are available for income assistance. reinvestment by Manitoba, are estimated to be $7 million. Accordingly, the province is Currently, all income assistance clients with investing more than $4 million from new work expectations are expected to look for work provincial funding in 1999-2000. We are 3070 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 investing these additional funds because of our $15.2 million into early childhood intervention commitment to addressing the needs of children initiatives, school readiness programs fo r on a long-term basis. preschoolers, nutrition counselling fo r families, and other preventative approaches. It argues that This year Manitoba's reinvestments are the other provinces should adopt variations of building on the approach introduced in 1998-99. Manitoba's strategy by investing NCB funds in We will again focus the largest portion on child intervention programs to improve the prospects care. We will add $5.3 million to the child of children in disadvantaged circumstances. daycare program to fu nd additional subsidized spaces, increased grant funding, and provide As we all know, disabled people often more funds fo r extended-hour care. Our total experience higher daily living costs than budget fo r child daycare will be more than $53 nondisabled people. As well, they often fa ce million. special barriers to employment and require ongoing support services that make it difficult You will remember that I mentioned earlier fo r them to become financially self-sufficient. the WIN program. I am pleased to advise that Our government recognizes and wants to address we are expanding this program. Introduced in these special circumstances and challenges. We 1998, the WIN program provides lower income want to establish an income assistance approach families with access to community-based that best meets the needs of Manitobans who programming that covers a wide range of topics, have severe and permanent disabilities. such as the nutritional requirements of prenatal and postpartum women, infants and children, Currently, there are about 12,000 disabled newborn care, parenting, child development, Manitobans receiving EIA benefits. Many of cooking, and shopping. these clients are eligible fo r additional benefits under the EIA program's Income Assistance fo r Families on income assistance who attend the Disabled component, which helps cover the these programs are eligible fo r a nutritional extra costs associated with being disabled and supplement of $65 per month starting during the living in the community. In 1999-2000, an last trimester of pregnancy and continuing additional $1.4 million has been allocated to the throughout the child's first year of life. In 1998- Income Assistance fo r the Disabled program, 99, $1.8 million was allocated to the program; increasing benefits fr om $70 to $80 per month. $960,000 in additional funding has been allocated for 1999-2000. * (1510) A number of initiatives introduced through However, we have been asking ourselves the Children and Youth Secretariat will be would disabled clients be better served by a expanded as a result of the reinvestment of funds separate income support program or does the under the National Child Benefit system. The existing program need to be modified? These additional fu nds contributed by the province are some of the questions we are looking to find include EarlyStart, BabyFirst, and adolescent answers to. A number of other provinces, pregnancy programs. British Columbia, Alberta and Ontario, have established separate income assistance programs I am pleased to note that the C.D. Howe fo r people with severe and permanent Institute, one of the top think tanks in the disabilities. Other jurisdictions like Manitoba country, recently released a nationwide study have adopted special policies and provisions fo r that says of all the provinces, Manitoba is the disabled within their existing income making the best use of its share of the National assistance programs. However, it might be time Child Benefit to help fight child poverty by fo r a change. providing low-income fam ilies with added benefits and services. To determine which route is best, our The C.D. Howe report commends government will be consulting with all segments Manitoba's 1998 and '99 NCB investment of of the disabled community and their families June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3071 about the merits and possible design fe atures of For the past fo ur years, $22 million has been any new initiatives. A reference group will be added to the Adult Services budget to assist established to work over the summer to develop those adults living with a mental disability who and co-ordinate a consultation process to be are in critical need of community living implemented in the fal l. It will have represen­ supports. This year we have added $8.7 million tation from Manitobans who have interest in for services and supports for adults living with a programs and services for the disabled mental disability, an increase of 12 percent over community. Over the next several weeks, the previous year. This increase will provide community members will be appointed. The additional residential and respite services fo r reference group will ensure that meaningful over 130 individuals. In total, approximately input is received from Manitobans with physical, 3,350 adults with a mental disability will receive mental, psychiatric, learning and other supports to live in the community in a variety of disabilities, and their fam ilies. Particular settings including fam ily homes, supported attention will be paid to the views of disabled independent living and licensed residential care people currently receiving Employment and facilities. The funding increase will also allow Income Assistance benefits. fo r an expansion of the day services program­ ming fo r over 90 individuals. Approximately 2,200 individuals will participate in day services Based on the results of the consultation, our programs. government will determine specific proposals which could include the introduction of new Residential and day services agencies per legislation. We are looking to make the program diems will be increased by 5 percent in order to fa irer and more comprehensive. As we move assist service providers in recruiting and into the next century, we wantto ensure that we retaining staff. We will continue to work closely have a program that meets the needs of with service providers to ensure that individuals Manitoba's disabled community. with mental disabilities are supported in daily living activities and are provided with the As I am sure my honourable friend is aware, opportunity to live independently and participate a single system of income assistance in in community life to the greatest extent possible. Winnipeg was successfully implemented as of April 1, 1999. The new system will reduce the We will also work closely with community administrative overlap involved in two levels of groups to develop pilot projects fo r seniors with government providing similar services. Services mental disabilities and to test innovative required to meet specific needs of clients will approaches to family support, client-centred now be delivered from locations designed to planning and self-directed care. In the area of meet those specific needs. During 1999-2000, assisting Manitobans with disabilities to obtain we will begin to extend the technological and maintain employment, Manitoba signed the improvements associated with the introduction Employability Assistance for People with of one tier to our rural regional Employment and Disabilities agreement which took effect on Income Assistance offices. April 1, 1998. The EAPD agreement places greater emphasis on employment outcomes and The Community Living Division provides measuring program effectiveness. co-ordination, direction and support fo r adult community living in vocational rehabilitation Representatives of the disability community programs, the Manitoba Developmental Centre, participated in an extensive consultation process regional delivery of social services and with Manitoba officials. Their views, along with residential care licensing of adult care facilities. those of national disability groups, were taken We continue to place a high priority on into account in the development of the programs and services fo r adults living with a multilateral framework fo r the EAPD agreement. mental disability. Community-based services Our vocational rehabilitation program and other have been expanded and funding support for staff will continue to engage community residential and day services agencies has been representatives in the implementation of the enhanced. EAPD agreement. The Child and Family 3072 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

Services Division provides central program We are continuing to implement the management fo r child and fam ily services recommendations of the child day care regulatory programs. While the division as a whole will review committee. Alternative child care see an increase in its budget, the child, family arrangements will continue to be explored and and community development component will see created to meet the changing work needs of an increase of $8.8 million in its maintenance of fam ilies. In 1999-2000, funding fo r the child children and external agency supportarea. daycare services has increased by $5.3 million fo r infant and preschool care, including an Keeping children safe and protected fr om addition 500 subsidized spaces. Since 1987-88, abuse and neglect is a primary objective of the almost 5,000 additional spaces have been created department. The recent amendments to The fo r the benefit of children and their families. Child and Family Services Act will strengthen our ability to meet the needs of children who are As recommended by the regulatory review at risk. This year, we will continue to be active committee, the 1999-2000 budget provides in implementing this legislation as well as in resources to move towards a unit funding model contributing to effo rts to intervene early in the fo r funded child care centres. This model lives of children and families to prevent longer­ ensures that fu nding takes into account the term difficulties. The new Adoption Act will staffing levels required by regulation, as well as enhance our ability to facilitate adoptions to the need to improve salary levels fo r early provide permanent homes fo r children. childhood educators. Operating grants fo r fu ll­ time child care centres and infant preschool In 1999-2000 through the Winnipeg spaces will be increased by 15 and 10 percent Development Agreement, the province is respectively. Grant fu nding is being provided providing almost $500,000 in operating support this year to approximately 1 ,600 currently and $346,000 fo r refurbishing living space for a licensed expansion and nursery school spaces. parenting support project fo r at-risk adolescent mothers and their children. We recently The 1999-2000 increase includes $1 million announced that the Family Dispute Services fo r the Children with Disabilities Program, to branch has been renamed the Family Violence ensure that families with children with a Prevention branch. The new name, implemented disability are able to access child care support. as of April 1, 1999, was done partially as a result A 2 percent increase in operating grants for all of the Lavoie inquiry recommendations but also fam ily daycare spaces is provided in this year's in keeping with the general direction to address budget. In addition, the budget includes funding issues of fam ily violence on a much broader fo r all nonprofit nursery schools, including 2 level. percent to operating grants.

For 1999-2000, we will increase support fo r Our 1999-2000 budget also provides services for fam ilies affected by domestic increased fu nding fo r the development of rural violence. Community consultations are currently child care. New operating grant funding of underway to identify gaps in services and how $500,000 will support the development of an these issues can be addressed through additional 385 infant, nursery and preschool community-based initiatives. Supervised access child care spaces outside the city of Winnipeg. service, which has been implemented in the In the Children's Special Services area, an communities of Brandon and Thompson, will be additional $645,000 will provide support for an expanded to Winnipeg. This service allows increase of approximately 150 children and their custodial parents to arrange fo r their children's fam ilies as well as fu nding for a Thompson site visits with the noncustodial parent without co-ordinator fo r the FAS telediagnostic model. needing to have contact with that parent. A high-quality child care system is an important * (1520) part of my government's commitment to working parents. We understand the need fo r a system We created the Children and Youth that is flexible and responsive to the needs of Secretariat in 1994 to provide a vehicle through families. which policy and programs fo r children could be June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3073 co-ordinated and early intervention and dialogue, debate and discussion around some of prevention initiatives could be initiated. A the things my honourable friend may fe el are not number of important early intervention and happening, but I certainly look fo rward to his prevention programs have been introduced as a comments, suggestions, recommendations and result of the co-operation and co-ordination ideas on how we can continue to make our efforts ofthe Children and Youth Secretariat. programs as effective as they can possibly be fo r those who need the support and the services As mentioned earlier, in 1999-2000, we are from the Department of Family Services. expanding the EarlyStart program which Thanks, Mr. Chairperson. provides fo cused early intervention fo r young children to increase school readiness and Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable decrease the need for costly education, health minister for those comments. Does the official and social services interventions in the future. opposition critic, the honourable member fo r We are also adding funds to the BabyFirst Burrows have an opening statement? program to provide services to families living in conditions of risk. BabyFirst emphasizes Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Some good positive parenting, enhanced parent-child inter­ things are happening in some parts of this action, improved child health and development minister's department, but this minister has a and optimal use of community resources. As long way to go before she gets even a passing well, we are implementing initiatives to delay grade. In the past, this minister has had several pregnancy in adolescents. nicknames. Last year I dubbed her the minister of pilot projects. This government likes to talk Finally, and in closing, I want to emphasize about partnerships, partnerships with business, that in our allocation of expenditures fo r 1999- partnerships in education, here a partnership, 2000 we have made a concerted effort to achieve there a partnership, everywhere a partnership. and maintain a balanced approach to renewing There is one partnership this minister should be and preserving services for the most vulnerable ashamed of and her government should be members of our society. We have taken very ashamed of; they are partners in poverty. seriously our responsibilities to Manitobans who require support and assistance in their time of This government does not care that they need. We have also taken very seriously the have been the child poverty capital of Canada for needs of future generations of Manitobans, those several years and have been in the top three of children of families who require our assistance the highest levels of child and family poverty for today in order to help ensure a positive future. many years in a row. Welfare cases have grown. In this effort, we have taken every opportunity to In the 1998 annual report, 74,000 people were engage the community in meeting these recorded as being welfare recipients. In 1988, challenges in the spirit of partnership and shared there were less than62,000. responsibility fo r meeting the needs of vulnerable families and individuals. As we The one-tier project or amalgamation of city move fo rward this year and in the years to come with provincial welfare was plagued with we will continue to work with existing and new problems fr om the beginning. It began with an community partners. We will continue to untendered IBM contract. Then there was the develop innovative initiatives to help people to senior civil servant who violated conflict of find work and to become self sufficient and to interest guidelines by leaving government to enhance the outcomes fo r children and families work on a contract he helped design, then at risk. attended meetings with government officials less than a year later. So I am looking fo rward to the dialogue and discussion around the departmental expenditures After the April 1 change when the Province this year, and I certainly welcome comments of Manitoba took over the City of Winnipeg's fr om my honourable friend and his colleagues caseload, some people did not get their cheques, around some of the good things that are some cheques were late. Winnipeg Harvest had happening in Manitoba. I know we always have the largest ever number of people walk in 3074 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 requesting fo od. Some cases were not transferred answered all the questions. Why you and your from the city to the province. Direct deposit staff are afraid to face people who are poor and information was not transferred. People did not powerless is beyond me. At the very least, if know which office to go to. People could not you are going to make changes in the system, find the office on Rorie Street because there is you should be prepared to defend the changes no signage. People could not get through on the and even explain them. phone. I am told there were 15,000 calls that were not answered. This government likes to Last week's warmed-over Mike Harris brag about being an efficient government. There announcements are a damning admission that is no efficiency when 15,000 calls go this government has fai led to move people from unanswered. One person tried 140 times to get welfare to work. A similar situation exists in through on the phone, gave up, went to the office child care centres where dozens of centres are in person, and got so frustrated he began taking advertising fo r ECE lis and ECE Ills and cannot his clothes off. Only then did he get an get them. Those who are still working in child appointment. People were told they had to have care are inadequately paid, considering they an appointment. They could not walk in. It took have two years of post-secondary education. three days to a week to get an appointment, if Dozens of centres have provisional licences they could get through on the phone. because they do not have the required ratio of qualified staffto children. The result is that the Under the supposedly new and more quality of care has been compromised, and what efficient amalgamated system, the case co­ was once the best child care system in North ordinators have caseloads of 170 or more. They America under the NDP is deteriorating under have to do everything that was fo rmerly done by this government's watch. Most of that time it support staff and spend 50 percent of their time has been under this minister's watch, since she serving the bureaucratic needs of the system and has been the minister since 1993. too little time with clients helping them get off welfare and into a job. This minister is intent on There is a huge gap between this eliminating staff with social work degrees and government's rhetoric and its actions. In the deprofessionalizing the staff. Staffare now case 1995 election, the PC Party said, and I quote: co-ordinators so there is no time or role fo r Our children are the most fundamental social counselling abused women or protection investment we make in our society. planning. I am told by people on the front lines the intake assessment tool and the new intake But according to the National Council of process work very poorly. Welfare, the child poverty rate in Manitoba in December of 1998 had grown to over 25 percent, Staff transferred from the city to the the highest rate in Canada. Manitoba was province say the city's computer system was condemned by national organizations and the better, even though the province apparently United Nations fo r provincial government spent $8,71 0,000 on new computers. Explaining policies which have contributed to child poverty. the new system to clients was last on the government's agenda as it took months, repeated In the 1995 election campaign, the PC Party letters and phone calls from St. Matthew's­ said: Our health, education and social services Maryland Community Ministry staff and phone must be child focused if we are going to make a calls and letters from the MLA fo r Wolseley positive difference in the lives of our children as (Ms. Friesen) and I before Income Assistance they develop into healthy, competent, staff were finally allowed to go to St. Matthew's­ responsible citizens who will participate in Maryland Community Ministry and face the enhancing the quality of life in communities people most affected by the amalgamation to throughout Manitoba. explain the new system and answer questions. But according to the government's own If I were the minister, I would have gone Mason Report, quote: In Manitoba the myself, and certainly this minister, if she had the Departments of Health, Education and Family courage, could have gone in person and Services are all reducing service. The June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3075 contraction of the human service envelope is youth turning to destructive alternatives such as exposing both natural and fo ster fam ilies to street gangs. And the list goes on. greater demand fo r child and family services. I would like to illustrate the list with some In the 1995 election, the PC party said: The newspaper clippings. I will spare the minister Filmon government will maintain its ongoing the details. I will just read the headlines. For commitment to finding and implementing more example, on January 17, 1998, this headline: effective ways to successfully keep families "Manitoba leads in teen pregnancies." From the together rather than intervene by taking children Winnipeg Sun of June 14, 1998: "'New poor' into direct, fo rmal care. But, according to tum to fo od banks." The first two paragraphs Winnipeg Child and Family Services, between say: "People who use fo od banks are more 1991 and 1998, the number of permanent wards educated, healthier and younger than most brought into care rose by 42 percent at an people think, a recent Montreal study shows-a increased cost of $10.8 million in one agency trend which is mirrored in Manitoba. 'We find, alone. Today we have the highest rate of when we do a snapshot of our users, about 25 children in care in the country. per cent of the people are working or in transition,' said David Northcott, co-ordinator of * (1530) Winnipeg Harvest."

Mr . Peter Dy ck, Acting Chairperson, in the From July 4, 1998, by Nicholas Hirst of the Chair Free Press, a column entitled "Focus on inner­ city kids." He points out that "last year there In the 1995 election, the PC Party said: The were 71,000 occasions that a child spent a night safety and care of children is of paramount in short-term placements including hotels." He concern. In situations where the fam ily is unable has some suggestions for solving these to provide such care, the children should be problems. I do not agree with two of them, but a placed in a safe, supportive environment. But, third one says: "Work on the root problems of a according to the Department of Family Services, poverty-stricken, disillusioned, depressed core the Filmon governmentspent $7.8 million in one area. Create 24-hour community centres out of year alone housing hundreds of children in schools and other community buildings. Have hotels and shelters staffe d by shift workers. By an inner-city housing program to reb)!ild and 1998, Winnipeg Child and Family Services improve the stock that is there. Wor� W,ith the stated that the use of hotel and shelters was at an community groups to do that and emp1o1 inner­ all-time high. city workers to do the building."

Under Mr. Filmon's watch and this July 8, 1998, a Free Press headline says: minister's watch, Manitoba had the highest rate "Child benefit no extra help to recipients. Single of child poverty in Canada fo r several years, and mother in 'total shock' after finding provincial fo r the most recent year fo r which statistics are welfare reduced by the same amount." July 28, available, Manitoba was virtually tied fo r 1998: "Crumbs fo r single moms." August 31, second. Children make up over 40 percent of 1998: "City's poor are among poorest in land. those using food banks in our province. Food Three of Manitoba's wealthiest areas in banks went from an unknown phenomena to Winnipeg: Stats Can." The first paragraph says: year-after-year record growth. "The least affluent neighbourhoods in Winnipeg are also among the poorest in Canada, according Cuts to prevention services such as speech to a study released this month by Statistics and hearing have compromised children's Canada. Incomes in the Winnipeg postal codes readiness fo r school. Cuts to education have which begin R3A and R3B rank fo urth- and compromised our children's ability to be fifth-last in the country when it comes to median prepared fo r the jobs of the 21st Century. Cuts income reported on 1996 tax returns." to recreation programs, such as the elimination of provincial funding to fr iendship centres, From The Globe and Mail, Friday, meant a cut in programs that have resulted in September 11, 1998: "Food-bank users immune 3076 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 to economic good times. Handouts rationed as government is turning on the spending tap in a number of Canadians requiring emergency pre-election spending binge and where they are supplies jumps 5.4%." From the Free Press tightening the screws on the most vulnerable, September 16, 1998: "The market isn't also in a blatant attempt to get votes in a pre­ working." September 11, 1998: "More people election period, an election postponed because are using fo od banks in province to make ends they knew they could not win. meet." From December 8, 1998: "Manitoba labelled child poverty capital." December 3, The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): We 1998: "Sad progress on child poverty," the thank the critic fr om the official opposition for Winnipeg Sun. those remarks.

It was not just Winnipeg papers that noticed Under Manitoba practice, debate of the this. The editorial in the Thompson Citizen fo r Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item December 4, 1998, says "Poverty capital of considered fo r the Estimates of the department. Canada unchanged," referring to Manitoba. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this December 14: "Feds fight child poverty, but item and now proceed with consideration of the province claws back." From December 3. 1998: next line. Before we do that, we invite the "Poverty's small faces. 72,000 children were minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask living in destitution in Manitoba in 1996. Poor that the minister then would introduce her staff families find it a never-ending struggle to make that are present. So if they would please move ends meet." fo rward.

December 1998: "The other world intrudes," The honourable minister, to introduce her Frances Russell talking about "Two different staff, please. worlds are becoming ever more visible in Manitoba and Canada," the two different worlds Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I would being one for the haves and one fo r the have­ like to introduce my deputy minister, Tannis nots. December 4, 1998: "Poor fall further Mindell; and assistant deputy minister fo r behind." December 5, 1998: "Canada gets Administration and Finance, Kim Sharman. failing grade on treatment of its poor. UN panel cites homelessness, rising use of fo od banks, The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Thank welfare cuts." December 30, 1998: "Quick way you. We will now proceed to line 9.1 to cut poverty" headline on a story regarding Administration and Finance (b) Executive attempts by governments, including this one, to Support ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. redefine poverty in order to make the stats look That is on page 65. better. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I would like From July 3, 1998: "Child workers' case­ to ask the minister fo r the list of grants to load a danger," referring to the high workload external agencies. I went through the Estimates requirements of Child and Family Services staff. book this year and made a list of them. I do not July 10, 1998: Child and Family Services "to know why I did not ask fo r all of them in split up siblings in bid to cut hotel stays. previous years. That was a mistake on my part. Separating children 'contrary to everything we've ever done.'" The first paragraph says "Winnipeg Child and Family Services officials want to keep I will give you the whole list, and if I can get kids out of hotels at all costs-even if it means these tomorrow that would be great, or as soon separating them fr om their brothers and sisters." as possible: the Community Living and It really shows how desperate the situation is. Vocational Rehab programs, Maintenance of From November 1, 1998: Child and Family Children and External Agencies, the Family Services "volunteers face an uncertain future." Support Innovations Fund, the family violence prevention External Agencies, and Children's Now that we are into the spending Estimates Special Services Financial Assistance and of Family Services, we will see where the External Agencies. June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3077

Mrs. Mitchelson: I know that we have provided is around $900,000 to Taking Charge! for one the list of grants to external agencies in past additional year, so they have some commitment years, and I know there was a recommendation fo r this fiscal year, but they say that will be the by my honourable fr iend, or a request, that we end of their funding. break it down into different divisions fo r him. Just to show how very accommodating we are, As a result of the reduction in funding, we do have that list here today, and it is broken Taking Charge !, the board and staff have had to down I believe in the way he has asked for it. So take a look at what programming they have I am prepared to be certainly as co-operative as I done, what programming has been the most possibly can in providing information to my effective and has had the greatest impact and honourable fr iend. determine what they are going to fund into the future, what kinds of programming they are * (1540) going to fund. There is a significant reduction that has caused them to take a look at what has Mr. Martindale: I would like to thank the worked well and what has not. As with any pilot minister fo r fo llowing that suggestion and fo r project, we know that not all pieces are having the list available so quickly. successful. It is important that an evaluation is done and that you build upon the strengths of I would like to ask the minister, I guess I am any of the program components, and that is going to have some questions on the first section exactly what Taking Charge! is looking at right here. Since this includes Policy and Planning, I now. am wondering if there has been an evaluation of Taking Charge! and if the minister could make it I think what they are beginning to focus on in a available for me. more significant way is those single parents who have the greatest needs and significant support Mrs. Mitchelson: It is my understanding that required. We know that that is not always the that report is almost completed in its final stage. cheapest program, that sometimes they are the It has to then be reviewed by the project review most costly programs, but when there are committee which is both federal and provincial multiple needs and there is a lot of work to do, I appointments. Certainly once that has been think they feel that that is probably the area finalized, it will be released publicly, and I will where they need to focus their attention and ensure my honourable friend gets a copy as soon direction. That is what they are in the process of as it is able to be released. implementing as they move forward and look at the resources they have and where they can best Mr. Martindale: I thank the minister and look be spent. fo rward to getting the report. Can the minister tell me if there are plans to extend the Taking Charge! program, or are you awaiting the Mr. Martindale: I understand that Taking evaluation? Charge! is funding some adult literacy programs, and I am wondering if those are going to Mrs. Mitchelson: Although the federal govern­ continue or if they are going to be terminated, I ment has finished its funding commitment to guess. Taking Charge!-the five-year pilot project is finished-there certainly was significant value in Mrs. Mitchelson: I do not have a specific some of the programming that took place at answer to that, but I can certainly undertake to Taking Charge! with I think over 1,200 women get that information fr om Taking Charge ! and and their children moved from assistance and provide it. into the workforce as a result of various different programming activities. We have continued our provincial fu nding in this year's budget, and we Mr. Martindale: Under Information Systems, have added an additional $400,000 through it is my understanding that Information Systems Education and Training to Taking Charge! The have been contracted out to Systemhouse. Is federal government has directly flowed I think it that right? 3078 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

Mrs. Mitchelson: Right across government, technology. So there would be some allocated in government-wide, we have gone to a desktop here. This would be our central support piece. management system with Systemhouse that will There is some in every division then. provide standardized software and hardware right across the board. So it is a government­ Mr. Martindale: wide project. Going back to page 75, where it says Family Services $8,71 0,000, does that Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me how refer to computers as well? many staff went from Family Services to Systemhouse? Mrs. Mitchelson: On page 75, this is the capital investment for information technology to Mrs. Mitchelson: Six stafffr om the Department develop the one-tier system with the City of of Family Services went to Systemhouse. Four Winnipeg. of these were as a result of the desktop initiative. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me, on Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me if the page 73, if the $3,1 77,000 is also for computers? contract with Systemhouse is available to me or it is confidential? Mrs. Mitchelson: The amount on page 73 would include the hardware fo r the one-tier Mrs. Mitchelson: I am told that because it is a system, and on page 74 would be the building of government-wide initiative, the initiative reports the system, the software fo r the one-tier project. to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer) through the Office of Information Technology. Mr. Martin dale: Would it be accurate to say So the contract would be under the auspices of that if you add $3.1 million and $8.7 million, the Department of Finance, where that question that is what the department is spending on would be most appropriately asked. We do not computers? have individual contracts with Systemhouse. It is a government-wide contract. * (1600) * (1550) Mrs. Mitchelson: For clarification, when you talk about spending on computers, are you Mr. Martindale: Is the contract broken down talking hardware and software combined or are in any way so that you would know how much you talking about purchase of computers, or the services provided to your department are what are you talking? worth? Mr. Martindale: Both hardware and software. Mrs. Mitchelson: If we look at page 73 of the Supplementary Information, it will indicate what the Amortization of Capital Assets for Mrs. Mitchelson: I am not sure if I am clear on information technology are fo r the Department the question that was asked, but on page 73, it is of Family Services. For the Desktop Manage­ the hardware, right? It is the computers. On ment Initiative, the capital fo r this year allocated page 75, it is the development of the program from the Department of Finance to the which is a one-time cost for the implementation Department of Family Services is $2.569 of the one-tier initiative. Does that answer the million. That would be our portion of thewhole question? initiative that would be assigned to Family Services from the central contract. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I thought the question was fa irly easy, and that is how On page 35 of the Estimates, the amount much are you spending on computers this year, that would be seen here would be our central hardware and software? I thought if I added the support for Information Systems. Then you number at the top of page 75 and the number at would find within different divisions or branches the top of page 73, I might get the total, but it some additional costs for implementation of does not seem to be that clear. June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3079

Mrs. Mitchelson: I think I have it. The total IT those who are having difficulty with their budget excluding capital is $9.2 million, and computer system after hours, so anyone who then if you add the capital from page 73, the works after-hours hours, whether it be, I 2.569, that is the total expenditure of the suppose, in Corrections, Citizens' Inquiry, any Department of Family Services on IT this year. type of after-hour service that might be provided through our regional services. You asked fo r the total costs with capital, and I guess you are looking fo r hardware and Any of those activities that are ongoing software and staff. That is the total number. throughout government that would be the nontraditional working hours, the help desk is Mr. Martindale: If that is the number the there and available and it is part of the contract minister is giving me, then I guess that is the with Systemhouse. number that they spent this year on computers. I would like to ask the minister, on page 35 under * (1610) subappropriation 09-1 G, Other Operating has increased from $12,000 to $144,000. I wonder if Mr. Martindale: Well, I am glad to know that the minister can explain that particular line. 24-hour help is available fo r your hard-working civil servants. I know one of them phoned me at Mr . Chairperson in the Chair 6 a.m. which is one of the advantages of this modern technology, you know who called you Mrs. Mitchelson: Of the $9.2 million that we and when, which, as we know, is causing the indicated that was spent on Information Minister of Justice great problems right now. Technology, the Other Operating, this is part of it. As we said, it was allocated throughout the I do have a question about that. I understand department. The $144,000 is in this line. that, you know, civil servants often work until five or six o'clock because I fr equently talk to Mr. Martindale: If I could clarify, I think the them between that time, but are you paying for a minister was trying to tell me in a previous service that is not used very much? I mean, how answer and this one that the costs of operating many people are working after six o'clock every the computer systems are spread throughout night. your department, so on several pages there would be a similar operating line? Okay. Mrs. Mitchelson: Given that there is a government-wide contract, each department Going back to the computer system, provides some support to the after-hours help presumably if it says amortization, it is line. I guess my honourable friend might be amortized over a number of years. I wonder if critical of that support being available, but I the minister can tell me how many years the guess I would have to question whether he computer acquisition is amortized over. would think that during a fo rest fire or a flood situation where the citizens of Manitoba might Mrs. Mitchelson: We have a government need support from Natural Resources or capital policy, and that is amortization over 15 Emergency Measures that we do not have any years. So this is part of the overall government support available and if there are things on the policy. system that need to be accessed by those that are working providing that kind of emergency Mr. Martindale: In a brochure that I got about services in our correctional facilities if there was the help desk, it says that it is available 24 hours a problem with the computer and those who are a day. I am wondering how many civil servants working shift work or evenings or nights within are working after midnight. Is there a demand our correction system could not have access to a fo r a 24-hour-a-day help desk, and, if so, what is help line if they needed to get some information the demand? off the systems.

Mrs. Mitchelson: It is run by Systemhouse. It Or in Regional Services, I know that in is a help line and it would be available there fo r some of the regions, I know some of the areas of 3080 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

our province are served by child-mandated Child different. I am wondering if that is available fo r and Family Services agencies, but I know that me. our department provides that service throughout many ofthe regions ofthe province of Manitoba. Mrs. Mitchelson: The contract with IBM Especially in the North, if there was a child in around the one-tier system is not a separate need of protection and we needed to access some contract with IBM. There is a contract with IBM kind of information after hours, I would sense fo r Better Systems which is the one-tier project, that, I would hope that if his party was in plus some projects in Education and Training, government they would believe that the citizens Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Finance and of Manitoba should have that kind of support the Department of Labour, so that is one contract and service, and we should be able to access with IBM, and that fa lls under the Minister of information to provide the most appropriate and Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer) again. There would timely support possible. be information available on that contract. I guess, ask in Finance Estimates. Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): I am going to ask fo r my two colleagues to allow me to do Mr. Martindale: I wonder if the minister could this. I am trying to monitor three committees tell me how much the one-tier part of that right now. I have some questions in the area of contract is worth. What was it costing your investigations in income security. I am department? wondering where that comes. I do not know if I will be able to be here when you get to that line. Mrs. Mitchelson: That is the number that is on but I was not here at the start of this department's page 75 in the Supplementary Estimates. It is hearings. $8.7 million.

Are you going line by line? What line Mr. Chairperson: Item 9.1. Administration and would that line be in, income security in regard Finance (b) Executive Support (I) Salaries and to the investigations? I will be asking questions Employee Benefits $521 ,500-pass; (2) Other in regard to the emphasis on proactive Expenditures $80,700-pass. investigations and the number of investigators since the amalgamation of the two. Where would 9.l .(c) Social Services Advisory Committee that be, and any idea when you would be getting (I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $207 ,BOO­ to that? pass; (2) Other Expenditures $159, I 00-pass.

Mr. Chairperson: I did not recognize the 9.l.(d) Human Resource Services (I) honourable member as a point of order, so I am Salaries and Employee Benefits $83 1 ,800-pass; not going to rule on that. I did understand that (2) Other Expenditures $88,800-pass. the honourable member fo r Burrows (Mr. Martindale) conceded to the honourable 9.l .(e) Policy and Planning (I) Salaries and member for The Maples, so hopefully your Employee Benefits $816, I 00-pass; (2) Other question has been dealt with. Expenditures $177, 700-pass.

Mr. Martindale: I thank the minister fo r her 9.J .(f) Financial and Administrative answer. She mentioned things that I had not Services (I) Salaries and Employee Benefits already thought of which probably justify having $1,756,8 00-pass; (2) Other Expenditures 24-hour help. In fact, I am one of the people that $493,400-pass. could use 24-hour help except that it is not available to me, but perhaps maybe after the next 9 .l.(g) Information Systems (I) Salaries and election it will be available to me. Employee Benefits $1 ,519,000-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $818,900-pass. I would like to ask the minister if the IBM contract fo r the one-tier system would be 9.2. Employment and Income Assistance (a) available to me. I have a copy of the business Client Services (1) Salaries and Employee case but the contract, I presume, is somewhat Services $21 ,246,000. June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3081

* (1620) proactive role and more of a role of just looking at the applications and ensuring that the Mr. Kowalski: I have some questions in regard information is right. to the investigative unit in this department now. I am going to ask to be sort of educated into how Has there been a change in emphasis? Is the department is run and some background that idea of Compliance a change of direction? information, especially concerning the amal­ gamation of the City of Winnipeg income Mrs. Mitchelson: It is not Jess proactive. security with the provincial. have to indicate there have been a lot of other functions, and there are a lot of other issues to deal with. Now, as a result we have an Just so I know either the positions or the amalgamated system, and we have to ensure that persons, I would like to relate it to what my people who might have in the past been on the knowledge is, a person by the name of Don City of Winnipeg case load as single employable Feener. Now, I am not too sure what his role is, individuals are not cohabiting with someone that if he is an associate director of that. Could you might have been-! mean, there are issues around tell me what his position is and who he reports to trying to ensure that we are only paying one and what the chain of command is before the welfare cheque fo r one reason to an individual. amalgamation, before the amalgamation of the two departments, where he was? We also, with our announcements that were made last week, are going to be much more Mrs. Mitchelson: I am hoping I am answering proactive in trying to ensure that we work with the question. Don Feener is the director of single parents to ensure that they are getting all Investigations reporting to the director of of the maintenance that they should be getting Compliance who is Lawrie Cherniack who has from a partner. We are going to be, because I just arrived at the table here. I also did not know that sometimes within the Justice system it introduce Gisela Rempel when she came to the is not one of the highest priorities, hiring table. She is our ADM of Employment and paralegals within the Department of Family Income Assistance. Services to work proactively with women to ensure that we are holding the other partner Mr. Kowalski: Was that the same situation accountable fo r- before the amalgamation? Was it the same structure and the same personnel before you An Honourable Member: Not always women. amalgamated the City of Winnipeg and the provincial income security? Mrs. Mitchelson: No, and that is why I said the other partner-accountable and ensuring that Mrs. Mitchelson: The structure has been there is some onus and responsibility to ensure changed as a result of the amalgamation. In the that you are supporting a child that you may past we had a head of Investigations. With the have been somewhat responsible for. So we are amalgamation, there was a position created, going to proactively seek that kind of support director of Compliance, which is a new and ensure that people are contributing structure. financially to the support of their children.

Mr. Kowalski: Does that signal any change in Mr. Kowalski: I am looking now for numbers. emphasis or direction? Investigations can be Prior to the amalgamation, how many proactive where you are searching out fr aud, investigators were there in the provincial end of people who are not needing or not deserving of it and how many investigators were working social assistance. You could do proactive inves­ with the City of Winnipeg investigating? My tigations, whether it is working with other understanding is that possibly the City of government departments, whether it is-at one Winnipeg did not have dedicated investigators as time I believe you had an informant line; I do much as they relied on their case workers to not know if you still have that, whereas report on it. What is happening now? Have we Compliance to me sort of indicates Jess of a increased the number, decreased it? Has more of 3082 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

an emphasis been put on the case workers to whatever method of identifying those people so investigate fraudulent claims as opposed to a there is not duplication. I believe Ontario is special unit? moving to a system like that. What is happening here in Manitoba? Mrs. Mitchelson: In our past structure, before we took over the employable caseload fr om the Mrs. Mitchelson: As far as identification, City of Winnipeg and amalgamated, we had fo ur certainly we are open to exploring options and investigators, two specialists and one director. opportunities. I know that Ontario is looking at fingerprinting. I cannot tell you fo r sure whether An Honourable Member: Four investigators or not they have implemented anything. I am plus the specialists? not sure whether they are even close to finalizing anything. * (1630) I do know where we have become more Mrs. Mitchelson: Two specialists and one proactive in Manitoba is with information director. The City of Winnipeg, fo r all of the sharing agreements with other provinces. I know employable caseload, had one investigator. since I have been minister we have signed agreements with Ontario, British Columbia, Mr. Kowalski: The laying of charges, as far as Saskatchewan, Alberta. So what we have tried actually fo r those who do apply fo r income to do is ensure that there is a reciprocal exchange security when they are not eligible and they of tapes so that we can ensure that we do not either give incorrect information, lie about other have the same person on caseloads moving back income and that. Will this new amalgamated and fo rth across provinces. department still lay charges or will you just be ending assistance? Will there be as many One area that we have had some difficulty is charges laid under this new structure? getting the federal government on board in exchange of information. That has been more Mrs. Mitchelson: We will continue to lay difficult. We would like to see that happen. charges when that is warranted. They have not as yet been supportive of that taking place. Mr. Kowalski: Because I come fr om a back­ ground of investigations and I receive stuff from I am not aware of any province that has put the Canadian Police Association, I am aware in in place any specific identification model. I do other jurisdictions that are looking at know that Ontario has talked about it. They are identification. Some of it, I think fo r some looking into possibly fingerprinting. I think they libertarians it will scare the heck out of them. I talked about it at one point in time. I would am not as concerned. If I have done nothing have to try to get an update on where they are at wrong, I have nothing to hide, and I would not with that, but I know that they have nothing in be scared. I fe el that quite often possibly we place or nothing imminent. would have more resources for people who need it if a few who were not fraudulently obtaining Mr. Kowalski: Maybe I have fo rgotten already, income security were not obtaining it. but you indicated that there were fo ur investigators, two specialists, a director in the Now, there have been conferences and that province, and one person in the city. So that is a about looking at diffe rent ways of identifying total of eight people who are looking at welfare people who are receiving benefits. This would fr aud. How many people are there now doing stop people from going to Alberta, Calgary in the same function? one day, picking up income security there, going to Regina the next day, going to Mike Harris's Ontario the next day, and repeating it. Now, Mrs. Mitchelson: That was before the amal­ everything goes from retina scans, I guess, you gamation. Now we will have 10 investigators, know, people, they use diffe rent terminology, one director, and one director of Program but basically it is fingerprinting, retina scans or Compliance. June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3083

Mr. Kowalski: I am curious as far as what role Mrs. Mitchelson: Absolutely not. When the the caseworkers are expected to fulfill as far as issue came up last week in Question Period, I weeding out welfare fraud and what role the went directly to staff and said: is this something investigative unit. Does the investigative unit that is happening on our line? They looked into look at patterns and it is up to the individual it and got the information. I have never been caseworkers to refer cases, or is the investigative briefed, and I say that with all honesty. It was unit going and testing, examining cases to look not even an issue. at ones where there is a possibility? How do these active fi les come to be? Whose initiative Can I indicate then that from time to time, are they? the critic fr om the opposition does call one of my staff members at home or personally on Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, the 10 specific issues, and they usually indicate to me investigators have been decentralized into the that they have tried to answer his questions, but field, so they will be working hand in hand with that is the only extent. I have no information on the caseworkers at diffe rent locations and they the fraud line. will be moving fr om location to location. They are located primarily on Market street in the new Mr. Kowalski: Okay, we will go to another office, but they will be going out to other offices, area. When the head of MPIC was before the so they will be working with caseworkers. They Public Utilities committee, we talked about some will be doing sort of random investigations. investigations there. They have shown a strong They will be working with caseworkers as cost-benefit analysis that for every investigator caseworkers identify issues that maybe need to that they have put into their department, the be investigated. They also will receive referral number of claims that were either denied or fr om the fr aud line that has been set up. They fraudulent ones, that it has been tenfold the costs may need to go to caseworkers to get additional for that investigator. I have read some statistics, information, if there is an anonymous call, so mostly from the United States, where they have they will be working together more as a team. increased the number of investigators, inves­ tigated, analyzed more cases, and the amount of * (1640) money put into that effort was recuperated tenfold by doing this. Mr . Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Has your department ever looked at the amount of claims that an investigator finds as Mr. Kowalski: You mentioned the fraud line, fraudulent, the amount of money recovered and and because of recent events, I guess the first investigated, and used that as an analysis to question in regard to the fraud line is: if it is a determine how many investigators should we government number, is it still blanked out? have in a province of this size?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it is true Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I do have to that 9-4-5 numbers did show up on the fraud line indicate that the results from the setting up of the previous to, well, even still today, I have to say, welfare fr aud line and calls that come in-and because MTS and Centrex are trying to figure they continue to come in. We have saved on an out how to fix it, and I am told that it should be annualized basis now since the inception, I fixedby the end of the day. believe that was back in 1994, we can indicate that we save $13 million as a result. Now, it has Mr. Kowalski: You just have to go to a been about $2.8 million per year and another 2.8 different exchange, 9-4-2, to solve this; easy on top of that. We are looking at an annualized matter and that is it. saving of about $13 million, so we do know it has been cost-effective. Under the new structure I guess because of questions that have been and with the amalgamation, we will have gone going on in Question Period in regard to justice, from fo ur investigators to 10 investigators. We if government numbers were displayed, was the will be putting paralegals in place to deal with minister briefed on any numbers? single parents and try to get more maintenance, 3084 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2I, I999

so that will mean we will have to pay less in Mr . Chairperson in the Chair welfare. Under the new Compliance that was announced last week, we will have, at the intake Mr. Chairperson, we are running at a little process, some investigators attached to that, a over I percent right now. It might be worth couple of additional ones. certainly an analysis. Those would be the numbers based on before we amalgamated. You might say we almost have twice the caseload The whole issue here is to try to ensure that now, and we have the single employable the dollars that are needed to support those that caseload, which we did not have in the past. I need it are used in that way and that no one know the city only had one investigator looking should take advantage of hard-earned tax dollars. at that activity. So we have increased that to IO. For every dollar we are paying out when It certainly is worth taking a look at to see someone is claiming when they are ineligible, whether we have the most appropriate-we do not that is one less dollar that we can spend on want to be bureaucratically heavy and not health or education or other programs within achieving savings or going after people in a government. It is important that we try to ensure meanspirited way, but we do want to ensure that that the money is going to those who need it and those that are receiving are people that should be that we are vigilant. receiving welfare.

Mr. Kowalski: You have gone from fo ur * (1650) investigators to I 0 investigators. You say that, as a result of the welfare fraud line, you are Mr. Kowalski: Going back to the identification saving $2.8 million annually. If there is a of persons and so many records are based on saving, if you had more investigators, would you name and a date of birth. In might be corrobo­ save more of the public's money? Has an rated with some birth certificate records, with analysis been done? What is the right number? marriage records and stuff, but not necessarily. How did the figure of I 0 come? If you had 20, The systems that they have instituted in some of would you save twice as much? If you had 30? the States with retina scans, fingerprinting, What analyses have been done to determine the whatever, it identifies the actual body, that cost-benefitra tio? person to the cheque. I know people grimace at it, but it is to protect the public's money. Right Mrs. Mitchelson: I recall that, when we firstset now, never mind going about other provinces, up the fraud line, there were statistics right information sharing with other provinces, within across the country that said they were our own province, we can have people going to somewhere between I percent and 2 percent of diffe rent areas of the province giving a different fraudulent activity in welfare programs. I recall name, giving a different date of birth, and that anyway as being sort of a figure that people obtaining multiple cheques. I have not heard the thought was a realistic figure, so there must have minister say of any proactive study or analysis; I been some analysis at the time. That was back do not know if you send anyone away on courses several years ago, back in I994. to look at this as a way to making sure that we are not giving money to people who do not That is what the literature says anyway. deserve it. know our percentage is not I or 2 percent. guess the question that you are asking is: have The sharing of information is not sufficient. we done any analysis to see whether-and I will I could walk into an office in Calgary and say: I try and get the number fo r you. I guess, certainly am Joe Blow, born in '47, and walk into the next it would be worth some sort of an analysis to office in Regina and say: I am Jerry Blow, born say: if this is what we have saved the taxpayers in '48, and so on, until there is some kind of as a result of this kind of activity and our target identification, some way of identifying the should be I percent to 2 percent, what more or person in relating the cheque to the person. I do how many more people would we need to enable not hear the minister saying that there is any us to ensure that we are catching more of the study, analysis or proactive look at this. I know activity that should not be happening? the political sensitivity of it. I do not have any June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3085 problem with making sure that people who numbers and that. In that one, when they went deserve income get it and those people who do to a way, and I cannot remember which one they not-that is why I am willing to look at more used, retina scanning or that, where they had a investigators looking at this type of thing. But is phenomenal number of people who were getting there anything proactive that the minister is multiple cheques with different names. Once doing in this area? they did that, and they were able to tie the cheque to the body, it very quickly decreased. Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess my honourable fr iend The amount of money they invested in makes a good suggestion. I have to indicate to technology and investigators was saved tenfold him that in the past, until we amalgamated to a by doing that. I do not know how applicable it one-tier system in Winnipeg, we had respon­ would be in the province of Manitoba; maybe sibility for the disabled caseload and single more likely some place like Toronto or parents. That was called the provincial caseload. Vancouver, but I do not know. Until you look at I would venture to guess that, if you looked it, you will not know if the saving is there. across the system, those who might be sort of travelling from province to province and place to Another paper I read in regard to a magazine place, you would find it would be the single fo r investigators was this problem working employable, for the most part, and that was the within the social agency environment and being City of Winnipeg's caseload. As I said, we had an investigator. This investigator who wrote this four investigators for the disabled and single article talked about how their senior manage­ parents; the City of Winnipeg had one ment all came from a social work background. investigator fo r the whole employable, single, They had their masters of social work and were able-bodied caseload. We now have amal­ trained to help people to train to do that and gamated that system. We have just taken over. viewed investigators as their opposition. Even their own bosses, they were always fighting for Contrary to what my honourable fr iend in more resources, more money. the New Dem ocratic Party might say, we are finding that things are starting to work there. I hope that does not happen in this There are always some glitches when you department here. I do not know the director of amalgamate a system. Nobody went without Compliance. I do not know if that person has a shelter or money for food or cheques. Things background in social work and in the helping were handled as quickly and efficiently as profession and that. I do not want to get into any possible through the amalgamation, but it does personalities. I do not want to know; that is give us the opportunity to take, now that we none of my business. My comment is that have responsibility for that employable caseload, investigators can save a lot of money to the a look at what we are doing and how we could province, and that money could be used to help better do things. I am not certainly opposed to others. taking a look at some sort of technology that would identify and make sure that we are So I hope that these investigations will see appropriately paying support. It is something the analysis is done to see that there is enough that no one across the country has done, and I resources in spite of the political sensitivity would certainly take my honourable fr iend's about welfare fraud and this. So with that, I will suggestion seriously. It might be important for pass the mike over. at least someone from the department to take a look at what is happening in other jurisdictions, probably to the south of us, because there is not Mrs. Mitchelson: I was just wondering whether much happening across Canada, to see what my honourable friend would share any articles or might be appropriate. any information that he might have on this issue with us and make sure that we have- Mr. Kowalski: I will just wind up in this line here and then pass over to my colleague. I An Honourable Member: Yes, sure. skimmed the paper, and it was from New York City. Of course, it is a very different reality, the Mrs. Mitchelson: Thanks. 3086 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the assistant spoke to staff at Community Home committee to take a five-minute break? [agreed] Services who said that they hope that by July service will be biweekly; that is every two Th e committee recessed at 4:59p.m. weeks. On June 3, constituent No. 3 was told that she would have to wait two to three weeks. By the time the grass got cut, it was 18 inches long. The worker had to leave before it was After Recess finished. This is an 83-year-old woman. She went out and finished it herself, and her fam ily Th e committee resumed at 5:10p.m. were quite upset with her.

* (1710) I am wondering if the minister can tell me why her department is having so many Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. We will problems. I have been told actually that one of resume the Estimates of the Department of the problems is that there are 62 positions to fill Family Services, and I was about to recognize and that the reason that staff could not fillthese, the honourable member for Burrows. in spite of the fact that they had just recently acquired 11,000 employable cases from the City Mr. Martindale: I have some questions about of Winnipeg, is that the economy is booming the Community Home Services Program. I have and people are leaving Community Home had some complaints from some of my Services to get jobs. It seems to me that out of a constituents and other MLAs have as well. It pool of 11 ,000 employable cases that there kind of surprised me because I do not think I should not be too much trouble finding 62 ever got complaints, or if I did, maybe very few, people, if indeed that is the number of vacancies. when the City of Winnipeg ran it, but we have Unless, the minister has figures which are received numerous complaints since April 1, different. So maybe the minister can tell me when the province took it over. For example, a about some of the problems that you have, person I will call constituent No. I has only had obviously, been having and what solutions you her grass cut once all spring. She was told that are working on. there were only four men available for the entire north end. Another constituent told me there were normally 12 and they only had six, and that Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I guess I is why they could not cut grass as often as would say that I am quite pleased to know that seniors would like. many of the single employable individuals that have participated in the Community Home Constituent No. 2 has only two hours Services project have moved on to fu ll-time allotted once a month. In fact, I was told, I think jobs. I think that that shows some success to the by staff, that service was changed to once a program, where people get some experience and month, instead of biweekly, due to the transition do perform some sort of work and then progress from the city government to the province and and move on to something more meaningful, so I due to a shortage of staff. Staff, I presume, think that must speak to the success of the meaning people working for Community Home program. Services, although it could be civil servants, I am not sure. I am sure the minister will Indeed, the same person that was running enlighten me shortly. Constituent No. 2 said that the program for the City of Winnipeg is running the worker leftbefore the job was done. I guess it now as it has moved over to the provincial because the two hours were up. She had to wait program. Yes, it does take some time to identify a month before the grass was cut. The grass was our first and foremost priority. I am sure my 12 inches high. She would also like her honourable friend would agree that the first windows washed. priority would be to transition the caseloads over and ensure that with reassignments to new Constituent No. 3, the grass was not cut until caseworkers and new locations that we would May 27. It was 12 inches long. My constituency want to ensure that people got their money in a June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3087 timely basis. I know that was one of his primary There is a process that has to be undertaken concerns. when you are hiring someone to do work for individuals: criminal record checks which I know in his opening comments he alluded sometimes take a bit of time, and we are now to the fact that people did not get transferred and implementing Child Abuse Registry checks too, people did not get paid and people missed which were not done in the past. Those are getting their cheques. I would think that he things that need to happen before we place would agree that our first and foremost priority people in those positions. We are expecting that was try to ensure that there was not any those 20 positions should be filled and working disruption in the service and support available very shortly. fo r people that really needed that support. We have tried our very best. That was why we set Mr. Martindale: The numbers that the minister up a help line and a line that people could call if mentioned are quite a bit lower than the they were experiencing some difficulty. So we Estimates book, page 42, which says 340 clients. try to make the transition as good as possible. I am wondering if clients mean homeowners, or does it mean people in the program? If it means He has indicated in his comments that he has people in the program, I suppose it could be a been told that the program should be up and total because some people would move in and running by the beginning of July. That is only a out of the program. couple of weeks away. If there was some disruption, I would anticipate that this would be Mrs. Mitchelson: There always have been 100 the only time there would be disruption in the positions. What normally happens is people program because of the transition and because of come into these positions, get some work our priority focus on trying to ensure that experience, andthen move on to permanentjobs everyone had a new caseworker in the new or other opportunities, so we anticipate that there system, knew where to go and had an will, through the 100 positions, be about 340 opportunity to at least ensure that their benefits people that get some work experience done were continued. That was our No. 1 priority, through those 100 positions. and we will endeavour to try to ensure that the people that need the support and services from * (1720) the Community Home Services project will receive that support. It does take some time. Mr. Martindale: Just a final question on this, would I be accurate if I phoned these three I know when people move on to bigger and constituents and any other that my two part-time better things and permanentjobs, we do need to constituency assistants have been trying to help identify new people and we will do that. Our and assure them that by July they will be getting expectation is that by July I we will have the biweekly service in terms of grass cutting or workers in place to perform that kind of activity. whatever it is that is being done for seniors?

Mr. Martindale: Can the minister assure me, Mrs. Mitchelson: Just a comment from staff then, that the 60 positions that are currently that says, weather permitting. On the serious vacant in Community Home Services in terms of side, I think that, if my honourable friend would workers to do yard work for seniors will be filled like to share just a bit of detail and background, by July I so that people will get biweekly we will certainly look into the specific service restored? situations. I have every expectation that, if people are on the list to receive services, they Mrs. Mitchelson: I think I need to correct the will receive those services. record and say that last year the City of Winnipeg had 100 positions filled. When the Mr. Martindale: I appreciate the minister's transition took place, there were 40 vacancies, so offe r to look into the individual circumstances, that meant there were 60 still working in the but either myself or staff have contacted people program. Of those 40 vacancies, 20 have been in your department about the individuals already. filled already, and there are another 20 to go. I did visit them all on Saturday night and their 3088 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

grass was short. They were not very happy, but Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I would like at least their grass had been cut either by to thank the minister fo r that information, and I Community Home Services or by a neighbour or stand corrected. I am wondering if the minister someone else. I will be phoning them since the can tell me if it is being held up by the fe deral minister assured me that, depending on the government or by the province. Is there some weather, I guess, depending on whether it is reason why it has taken a year to go from Prairie raining or cut, people can cut grass, they will Research to the board and both levels of have biweekly service by July. I am sure they government? How long has the project review will be happy to hear that because they have committee been studying this report? been very unhappy for the last three months. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, my I have one question about Taking Charge !; understanding is that there is a working group depending on the answer, it could be a series of that worked with Prairie Research in reviewing questions. I contacted one of your senior staff the documents that Prairie Research prepared, on June 24, 1998. It is not really relevant who and that is a working group comprised of federal the staff person is. I do not want to get her into officials, provincial officials and officials from trouble, but it is just that that person is Taking Charge! There would be a process where representing the minister and the answer that she pieces of the report would be submitted to that gave me would be whatever the minister's policy working group. They would have some input is. I was told, when I inquired about the into ensuring that the information was factual evaluation for Taking Charge!, that it would be and correct, and that is at the working level. sent to me after the board gets it. Now, since Once that did take place and the working group June 24, 1998, there must have been several was satisfied that at least the facts in the report, board meetings, and I am wondering what the not the conclusions, but the facts and the holdup is. The minister told me today, earlier, information were accurate, it was finalized and that I would get the evaluation after the board sent to the project review committee for their gets it, which is the same answer that I got finalization and signoffof the document in order almost exactly a year ago. I am wondering if the for it to be made public. minister is stalling or what the reason is that the excuse given a year ago is the same as the Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, can the excuse given today. minister tell me approximately when the report might be released to me? Mrs. Mitchelson: I think that if my honourable friend goes back and checks my comments Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I think it today, I indicated it was the project review will be very soon; I would venture to guess committee that would be receiving the report. It within the next month, maybe sooner. is not the board. The evaluation was done on behalf of both levels of government, and that is Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, if I am what comprises the project review committee. lucky, we might still be in session and then Prairie Research, I think, who was doing the could ask questions in Question Period on it. evaluation, has talked to the board, has talked to both levels of government, but ultimately the I would like to change to a diffe rent area. report comes to the joint steering committee, that is the project review committee. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, you just remind me that I have not introduced Dan It has been in draft stages. There has been Haughey who is our director of Welfare Reform. discussion with both Taking Charge! and the levels of governmentaround this. The report has Mr. Martindale: This year, I believe in January, been presented to both levels of government. I was in the city of Thompson. I joined a There is a meeting that still needs to take place member of Parliament, the member of between the project review committee, which is Parliament fo r Vancouver East, Libby Davies, both levels of government, before it will be on her homelessness tour both in Winnipeg and released publicly. Thompson. One of the very interesting and June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3089 disturbing places we went to visit was the new My guess is that it would be much, much holding cells for the RCMP. cheaper than the RCMP providing that service.

Homelessness is a big problem in It seems to me that there are some Thompson, and currently-well, it would be my jurisdictional issues. It would require a fa ir understanding that there is only one organization amount of co-operation, because if indeed all of that is taking responsibility for that now, and that that fu nction was transferred from the RCMP to is the RCMP. There were two organizations, Night Riders or some other organization, you because there was an organization called Night might not need so many RCMP officers, Riders which was providing temporary shelter although I am sure there would be other on a night-by-night basis to homeless people. communities that would be quite happy to pick them up. * (1730) I am sure the minister is fam iliar with this At the RCMP cells, we were given a guided issue. I am wondering if she can tell me if her tour. We were actually present when the RCMP department would consider funding Night Riders were dispatched to pick up somebody on the or some other organization. street who otherwise might have frozen to death. They brought them into the cells and searched Mrs. Mitchelson: I appreciate my honourable them. We were able to watch while they were friend's comments. I do know that I am awareof booked in. There is a very large number of the Night Riders program and I know that it has people who are housed in RCMP cells simply been closed, I think since March sometime, due because, currently anyway, there is no other to lack of funding. The issue for me is, I mean, place for them. My guess is that this is a very we discussed and looked at it. You know, our expensive way of providing emergency shelter social assistance program is a program of last for people. We were told that there are always resort. We do pay per diems in an emergency two officers who book people in. While we situation, but we do not support people who are were there, there were two other people behind ineligible for financial support from the province the desk, which has video cameras monitoring of Manitoba through our Income Assistance every cell. program. I think many of the people who end up in facilities in Thompson may choose to come to Now, Night Riders was organized by people Thompson and spend the night there, but they in Thompson to provide temporary shelter. It are not our clients or our responsibility. So it is has been on and off again over a number of a very dangerous precedent, I think, to get into years. My understanding is that every time their supporting or funding through a program of last fu nding runs out they close down. resort some of the individuals who chose to be in Thompson on the evenings that they were there. In Winnipeg we have Main Street Project, which is really an alternative to police cells, I do want to say that the Department of although they also have a detox function. But Family Services does not fund the Main Street Main Street Project takes the place of what I Project. That is a program that is funded understand was formerly a police function. through the Department of Health. The issue is one that I do not think our welfare program can Now, I am wondering, since the government solve. So what I have done is asked the three pays for Main Street Project, and I guess that departments to come together, Health, Justice, will be a question, if there is some sort of per and Family Services. We have taken the lead on diem from this minister's department that goes to inviting the other departments to come together Main Street Project. I am not sure. I do not find around the issues in Thompson and see what it on the grants to external agencies list. But I might be the most appropriate way of supporting am wondering if the minister would consider individuals in the Thompson area. something similar in Thompson, either Night Riders or something else, which would really be That work has begun because, as I said, very similar in function to Main Street Project. sometimes it is not-I think we have to be very 3090 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

careful that we do not set precedents with our issue is how to provide this service on the most welfare system, which is a program of last cost-effective basis because right now it is being resort, but if there is a genuine need, and I provided on the most expensive basis, RCMP believe there is a need for some sort of co­ holding cells. Can the minister tell me if either ordinated approach up here, we want to be able the RCMP or the fe deral government are to get the most cost-effe ctive solution to the involved in negotiations with the three issues that we are dealing with. So that process departments in the province? is underway. I will await the results of that discussion and dialogue to see what the Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, through the recommendation might be on some sort of a Department of Justice in the Province of program or project in the Thompson area. Manitoba there would be that consultative process. Mr. Martindale: I am happy to hear that this Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me if it minister is involved in consultations with three is correct to say that both 55 Plus benefits and government departments. I am sure that the CRISP benefits have not been increased to people I have talked to in Thompson would be reflect the cost of living since, I think, 1989? Is happy to hear that, as well, if they are not aware that true? of that. * (1740) Is the minister saying that people who are Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, yes, that is homeless in Thompson are ineligible because true. they are mostly from reserves and are therefore a fe deral responsibility? Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me why the number of people receiving benefits, namely, Mrs. Mitchelson: Here again, if they are from seniors and fam ilies with children, is declining reserve and are a fe deral responsibility welfare­ every year? I know that there was a big decline wise, they are getting their welfare cheque or when there was a change of policy, and we payment from the band through the fe deral discussed that in previous years' Estimates. But I government, and then to be paying again when am wondering if the minister can enlighten me they temporarily move off reserve, that would, in as to why the numbers continue to go down. essence, be sort of double-dipping in the welfare program, so that is an issue that needs to be Mrs. Mitchelson: We have not cut or denied looked at in the whole overall context of how we anyone the service. It is by application and as provide support. people apply and are eligible, they receive the support through the CRISP or the 55 Plus That is why I am saying that our welfare program. program may not be the most appropriate program because I do not think we want to set a Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me if she precedent in saying that we will, you know, the has statistics on what percent of eligible fam ilies federal government will pay at one end and we receive CRISP benefits, and what percentage of will pay again a second time, so it should not be eligible seniors receive 55 Plus benefits? welfare per diems or the welfare program that is supporting these individuals. What should the Mrs. Mitchelson: We could not provide that appropriate support be, where should it come because we in the Department of Family from, and we all need to be figuring out what is Services do not keep statistics on income levels the most appropriate fo rm of support for for working fam ilies or seniors and their individuals that find themselves in these financial circumstances. That would not be circumstances. information that we would gather or have readily available. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, it would be my understanding that RCMP costs are shared Mr. Martindale: Would the minister be willing jointly by the fe deral and provincial govern­ to request that information from the Minister ments, so it seems to me that the most germane Finance? June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3091

Mr . Ja ck Penner, Acting Chairperson, in the then they could decide which would be more Chair beneficial, to wait to age 65 or to take at age 60, whichever they fe lt they were better off doing. I Mrs. Mitchelson: I do not believe that our am wondering if the minister is aware of this Department of Finance provincially would have recommendation and what she thinks of it. that kind of data or information. I believe it would be something that the federal government Mrs. Mitchelson: As welfare, again, is a might have through Revenue Canada, but I am program of last resort, we require individuals to not sure it is something that our province would access all other available resources before have. I will certainly ask the Department of welfare support. This is a practice that happens Finance for that to see whether they have that in most jurisdictions right across the country. It kind of information or not. We do not is not an exception to the rule in Manitoba. I can traditionally have a lot of success in asking the certainly provide the information on what federal government for information and jurisdictions-! do not have it right here today, obtaining it, so my honourable friend might want but it is one of those issues that is general to try to write to the fe deral government and see practice across the country. As I said, because whether he might have more success. I can ask the nature of the program is a program of last that question of our Finance department here, resort, we expect that all other avenues of but our sense is that they probably do not have resource income are used first. that kind of data and information. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item Mr. Martindale: The minister will be aware 9.2. Employment and Income Assistance (a) that the Manitoba Society of Seniors met, I Client Services (1) Salaries and Employee believe, with the government caucus as well as Benefits $21 ,246,000-pass; (2) Other Expen­ our caucus, and they presented us with a position ditures $7,324,600-pass. paper sometime in 1998. One of their recom­ mendations on page 6, No. 3, says: MSOS 9.2.(b) Income Assistance Programs (1) recommends that appropriate measures be taken Employment and Income Assistance to ensure that the decision as to when CPP $268,188,1 00-pass; (2) Health Services retirement or disability benefits commence is a $29, 138,900-pass; (3) Municipal Assistance genuine choice for the individual and that people $5,675,700-pass; (4) Income Assistance for the are not forced to take their benefits early when Disabled $11 ,708,800-pass. this is not to their advantage. 9.2.(c) Making Welfare Work $2,770,000- Now, my understanding would be that this pass. recommendation comes because the provincial government madea decision several years ago to 9.2.(d) Income Supplement Programs (1) upload this expense to the fe deral government Salaries and Employee Benefits $596,800-pass; and force-[interjection] Well, I am sure the (2) Other Expenditures $333,300-pass; (3) minister would be looking for creative ways to Financial Assistance $8,335,1 00-pass. do this in more situations, but in this case it * (1750) penalized seniors because at age 60, they are forced to apply for CPP if they are on social Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, the minister assistance. That means that their benefits are may not have all her staff here for Community about one-third less to age 65 and one-third less Living. However, we have only got a few after age 65 for the rest of their life time. So this minutes. I am sure the minister can spend I 0 certainly penalizes seniors, especially those who minutes answering my first question, and I know have fairly low benefitsto start with. that she has the deputy minister and the assistant deputy minister here. So my first question is The recommendation from MSOS is that quite general in Community Living. seniors be given the choice as to whether they apply at 60 or not, which my understanding The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): would be that that was the case in the past, and Resolution 9.2: RESOLVED that there be 3092 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding agencies, most of them, I believe, providing $355,3 1 7,300 fo r Family Services, Employment residential services to persons living with a and Income Assistance, for the fiscal year mental disability. ending the 31st day of March, 2000. Mr . Chairperson in the Chair Item 9.3. Community Living (a) Regional Operations (I) Salaries and Employee Benefits It is my understanding from this correspon­ $15,360,600. Shall the item pass? dence and from previous correspondence and even from raising this issue in Estimates in Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, there has previous years that the organizations, on the one been a large increase in this part of the budget, hand, were asking fo r a 15 percent overall so this is a very general question. I wonder if increase, and the minister's response was to the minister can tell me, since the budget has spread it over three years. So it looks like in this gone up from approximately $1 19 million to budget there is a 5 percent increase for staff $131 million, where in Community Living the salaries. Is that correct? new monies will be expended. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, that is not Mrs. Mitchelson: There is a total of an $8.7- absolutely correct. When we started before this million increase and 8.1 of that into Supported year's budget and last year's budget, we met with Living Services to provide residential and respite the residential services people and they services to 132 individuals and day services to specifically asked for a 15 percent increase over 93 individuals. In the residential services, there three years, so we were able to provide 5 percent is an increase of$5.8 million, and that is to assist last year to operating grants and another 5 85 adults with a mental disability to live in the percent this year. community in licensed residential care facilities, either with natural or fo ster fa milies or We have not, of course, made the independently, and a 5 percent increase in commitment fo r next year, but we understand funding levels to residential care agencies. That the issues that are being faced out there in is in the residential services. Then in the day recruiting and retaining staff again to try to services, there is an extra $2 million to expand ensure that we can provide the support and day service programming to more individuals services to people living in the community. So and to increase funding to the day services we did respond; we have responded two years in agencies by 5 percent. a row to the residential services piece.

In respite, $123,000 for respite services fo r I think last year in our budget we provided 2 an additional 51 families, family members with a percent fo r day programming, and we have mental disability, and $200,000 for crisis increased that to 5 percent in this year's budget. services. That is the annualization of the fo ur­ So what we are trying to do is provide the bed crisis stabilization unit that we announced resources and the operating grant fo r facilities to last year, and also to provide crisis intervention begin to address the issue of salaries of workers, in the community. St. Amant Centre gets and we will continue to look at the issues $332,000 for their five-year strategic plan and surrounding the care and support of those with vocational rehab to provide a I percent increase mental disabilities. in the per diem funding to evaluation and training centres. So that is basically where the Mr. Martindale: In the correspondence that I money will be going. have received and that I have read, the agencies are telling this minister and telling me that they Mr. Martindale: have received a lot of are having great difficulty, first of all, attracting correspondence and the minister has. In fact, a staff and hiring staff, that when they do they lot of the correspondence that I received are have to spend money training them, that starting carbon copies of letters that were sent either to wages are very low, in the area of $6.25, $6.50 the Premier (Mr. Filmon) or to the Minister of an hour, and that when these people can get a Family Services from boards and staff of better-paying job, they frequently leave. So then June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3093 they have to start the process all over again of our system around supports for the mentally advertising and hiring and training them and that disabled. I hate to get started because I know this has an effect on the quality of care. I know once I get on a roll, it is going to take me a the minister is fam iliar with an identical issue in considerable time. child daycare as well. Mr. Chairperson: Is there a will of the The agencies are telling us that they are committee to call it 6 p.m.? [agreed] concerned not only because they fe el that the people that they are hiring are inadeqately The hour now being 6 p.m., committee rise. remunerated, but it has a big effe ct on the quality of care because they would really like to provide continuity of staff and they would like to be able LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY to attract well-qualified staff and retain well­ qualifiedstaf f. Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This Now, they are not the only organizations section of the Committee of Supply will be that are having this problem. I talked to the considering the Estimates of the Legislative director of a program that has a residence for Assembly. Does the honourable government adolescents and youth. He told me they hire House leader have an opening statement? anyone who comes in off the street with a Grade 12 education and no criminal record. Now that Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House is not the kind of people that they would like to Leader): Mr. Chair, I think the first order of be hiring. Ideally they would like to be hiring business should be to replace this microphone, people that have taken the two-year program at since it fe ll apart. No, I do not have an opening Red River College, the youth care worker statement. program, but there are not enough graduates fr om that program and there are not people who Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Does the have a lot of experience working with youth that officialopposition critic, the honourable member are willing to work in a residence at very low for Flin Flon, have an opening statement? pay. Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Just for So I guess I would like to ask the minister if clarification, are we dealing with the Department she thinks that this 5 percent a year over three of Highways Estimates? [interjection] We are years is really adequate to address the concerns not. that have been raised given that we are talking about a very small increase in wages after years An Honourable Member: Legislative of wages being frozen and rolled back. For Assembly. example, if we are talking about people making $6.50 an hour, we are talking about a wage * (1450) increase of about 35 cents, which is not very much when you are looking at only a 5 percent Mr. Jennissen: Okay. Can we have about a increase. So I wonder if the minister can tell me two-minute break, so I can check who is dealing if she thinks that the concerns of these agencies with that? that are writing to her and writing to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and writing to me are being Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. You would adequately addressed. like a two-minute break to get the critic in here.

Mrs. Mitchelson: I think it is going to take Mr. Jennissen: That is correct. more than a minute for me to get into some significant discussion around these issues, Mr. Chairperson: We will take a two-minute because I think they are very important issues break. Thank you. and I think it requires a significant amount of time to discuss the ever-increasing pressures in Th e committee recessed at 2:51 p.m. 3094 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

Mr. Fred Bryans (Executive Director, Legislative Assembly): Yes, I am Fred Bryans; AfterRecess I am the executive director of the Legislative Assembly. This is Susan Scott. She is the Th e committee resumed at 2.54 p.m. director of mem hers' services.

Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, since I am here in my Mr. Chairperson: We should then go to item capacity as House leader, these matters are 1.1. Indemnities (Statutory) (a) Members obviously those of the Speaker and the operation $3,479,000 and (b) Additional Indemnities of the House, and my critic is in the same $108,000. These amounts are statutory. position. I would ask if our staff could now join us at this particular time. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I understand a number of these are statutory amounts, and that Mr. Chairperson: The staff can now join us. we will be passing one vote at the end, but I think we may have other members who will be Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, if I may also ask the interested in asking questions in this area. Given indulgence of the committee to smooth the that there is one vote at the end, is it possible operation of the flow, rather than have the staff that we can range over this department in asking whisper in my ear to answer the questions of the questions? critic, if the committee is prepared to agree, why do we not let Mr. Bryans answer the questions Mr. Chairperson: There are resolutions for directly? If the critic is in agreement, I have no each one of those departments. problem with having staffanswer the questions directly. Ms. Friesen: We will pass the firstone.

Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the Mr. Chairperson: Okay. We have item 1.1. committee that Mr. Bryans be allowed to answer Indemnities (a) and (b) of $3,587,000. the questions directly? [agreed] Resolution 1.1: RESOLVED that there be Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding given that that delegation has taken place overall $4,778,300 fo r Legislative Assembly for the at the beginning, but there are a number of areas fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000. here which I think people would want to have a ministerial response or at least a responsible one. Item 1.2. Retirement Provisions (Statutory) I am thinking particularly of the Ombudsman, (a) Pensions and Refunds $1,429,500; (b) the Chief Electoral Officer and the Provincial Registered Retirement Savings Plan $288, 100. Auditor. Item 1.3. Members' Expenses (Statutory) (a) Mr. Chairperson: Then how we have handled Constituency Expenses $2,226,200; (b) this in the past is that the minister will direct the Temporary Residence and Living Expenses questions as he wishes to Mr. Bryans. $340,300; (c) Commuting Expenses $39,400; (d) Travel Expenses $519,600; (e) Special Supplies Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, just to clarify for the and Operating Payments $120,1 00; (f) Printing member for Wolseley, even some of those and Franking $290,800; (g) Committee particular amounts on allotment I have no Expenses $5,000. problem answering to the best of my ability, but they are agreements that are made by the * (1500) Legislative Assembly Management Committee, so that this is really a different set of Estimates Are there questions on the statutory from the norm, so we will endeavour to make amounts? sure all things are put on the record that are required, but perhaps Fred would like to Item 1.4. Election Financing (Statutory) (a) introduce himself and his staff. Election Act Expenses $3,000,000; (b) Election June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3095

Finance Act Expenses $3,000,000. A total of 1.5.9. Office of the Children's Advocate (a) $6,000,000. Are there any questions on that Salaries and Employee Benefits $243,000-pass; statutory amount? None? None as seen. (b) Other Expenditures $82,200-pass.

1.1.5. Other Assembly Expenditures (a) Resolution 1.5: RESOLVED that there be Office of the Leader of the Official Opposition granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding (1) Leader of the Official Opposition's Salary $325,200 for the Legislative Assembly, Office $27,000-pass; (2) Other Salaries and Employee of the Children's Advocate, for the fiscal year Benefits $134,500-pass; (3) Other Expenditures ending the 31st day ofMarch, 2000. $3 2,500-pass. 1.6.1 0. Amortization of Capital Assets $153,200-pass. 1.1.5.(b) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,235,500-pass. Resolution 1.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding 1.1.5 .(c) Other Expenditures $1,348,800- $153,200 for the Legislative Assembly, pass. Amortization of Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000. Resolution 1.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding That completes the Legislative Assembly. $4,778,300 for Legislative Assembly, Other We will now proceed on to the Estimates of Assembly Expenditures, for the fiscal year Highways and Transportation. ending the 31st day of March, 2000. HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION 1.2.6. Office of the Provincial Auditor (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,795,600- Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the pass; (b) Other Expenditures $917,100- pass. Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be Resolution 1.2: RESOLVED that there be considering the Estimates of the Department of granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding Highways and Transportation. Does the honour­ $3,71 2,700 for the Legislative Assembly, Office able minister responsible have an opening of the Provincial Auditor, for the fiscal year statement? ending the 31st day of March, 2000. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Highways 1.3.7. Office of the Ombudsman (a) Salaries and Transportation): Yes, I do. I know, Mr. and Employee Benefits $1,309,600-pass; (b) Chair, you would be disappointed as the new Other Expenditures $481 ,600-pass. minister if I-the critic may want to relax, order coffee. Resolution 1.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding First of all, it is an honour and a privilege $1,791 ,200 for the Legislative Assembly, Office for me to be here fo r my first year in Estimates of the Ombudsman, for the fiscalyear ending the as Minister of Highways and Transportation for 31st day ofMarch, 2000. our province. I must admit it is a very diffe rent portfolio from the one in which I sat at this table 1.4.8. Office of the Chief Electoral Officer last year, that being Health. But I must say that (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $478,000- it is very enjoyable to be at something different. pass; (b) Other Expenditures $166, 700-pass. I have always enjoyed working with infra­ structure and economic issues on the Resolution 1.4: RESOLVED that there be transportation side, so I am quite enjoying this granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding new portfolio. $644,700 for the Legislative Assembly, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer, for the fiscal year For the 1999-2000 fiscal year, expenditure ending the 31st day of March, 2000. estimates total $238.7 million, which represents 3096 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 an increase of just over $5.9 million over the The dilemma fo r us in infrastructure is the previous fiscal year. Our highway construction major challenge fa cing the transportation budget, at $110.5 million, is an increase of $.4 industry today and into the next century. That, million over 1998-99. I wish, of course, it were of course, is the deterioration of the nation's larger, as Minister of Highways. As we will transportation infrastructure, particularly our discuss a little later on in my statement, I think highway network. Even despite our expenditure the members recognize a need to see a federal level, I am probably one of the first to admit that commitment in this area, given this very our highway system looks tired. significant amount of revenue that national government raises off of our transportation Manitoba's highway and transportation system. service is a network of 18,500 kilometres of highways and roads and 2,407 bridges and Our maintenance program of some $59.6 structures. From 1988 to 1997, the provincial million represents an increase of $1.5 million highway network experienced an 11 percent over '98-99. There have been no reductions to increase in traffic use, partly due to rail line the 2,189.96 fu ll-time equivalent staff of this rationalization, repeal of the Western Grain department. The Manitoba government has Transportation Act and, I think, to a great benefit approved new highway construction projects to our province, increased tourism. Over the worth $104 million in addition to the $1 07 same period, Manitoba experienced the fa stest million in ongoing projects previously approved, growth rate of transborder truck movements fo r a total investment of $211 million over the among all I 0 provinces, an increase of over 9 next two years. percent a year. Truck weights have increased from about 20 tons in 1965 to 62.5 tonnes today. These projects will improve the safety and Many of our roads were designed fo r lower efficiency of our provincial road and highway volumes and weights and must be upgraded to network while providing approximately 3,590 service new requirements. jobs in the heavy construction sector. The details of these projects we will get to later on in Mr. Chair, 23 percent of our hard-surfaced my presentation. roads are currently deficient; 71 percent of gravel roads require upgrading to meet existing Last year's accomplishments fo r the safety and loading standards; and 17 percent of department include, of course, the $11 0-million our bridges and other structures have surpassed construction program, which included $10 their normal life expectancy. million from the capital innovation initiative fund. We completed paving on 193.7 kilometres Over the past six years, Manitoba of provincial roads and highways. We started expenditures on highways and road-related paving an additional 56.7 kilometres. We actiVIties have approximately equalled upgraded 102.6 kilometres of gravel roads. We provincial revenue collected in road-use fu el upgraded or rebuilt six major and 14 minor taxes. From the '92-93 fiscal year to the '97-98 structures. We sealcoated 670 kilometres of fiscal year, Manitoba collected an average of surfaced road and applied extra gravel and $190.2 million in road-use taxes and spent an calcium chloride to 590 kilometres of gravel average of $191.2 million on highways and road to stabilize their surfaces. road-related programs. These expenditures include, fo r the interests of accuracy, grants to * (1510) the City of Winnipeg from Urban Affairs, the A $58-million maintenance program infrastructure works program and expenditures included $40 million fo r surface repairs, road­ by other departments on road infrastructure such side care, bridge maintenance, and maintaining as Manitoba Natural Resources for roads in traffic control devices, all very important; $18 provincial parks. Manitoba has maintained its million was spent fo r winter snow and ice construction budget at around the $100-million, control; and an additional $3.5 million was now $11 0-million mark, while other provinces allocated to repair severe surface breaks caused cut road spending quite severely during this by the 1998 spring thaw. period. Almost 70 percent of our construction June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3097 budget is spent on maintaining the existing road system averaged only $5.8 million annually system. The remaining 30 percent is fo r up­ or 4.4 percent of revenue collected from grading the system, which includes engineering Manitoba motorists. costs, land-acquisition costs, road widening and In the '98-99 fiscal year, the fe deral strengthening costs to enable roads to carry loads government collected, as I have indicated, to the TAC standards. somewhere between $145-147 million in Manitoba in fuel taxes and invested absolutely Almost all funding for Manitoba's highways nothing in the Manitoba highway system. comes from the government of Manitoba. In the context of government priorities and fiscal The U.S. fe deral government today is control challenges and the demands placed upon investing $217 billion beginning now and over us by members of the opposition almost daily in the next six years in its already superior highway the Legislature, we are spending what is system, enhancing its productivity advantage, available to us as efficiently as possible. There drawing Canadian highway users to their system are contending forces for available extra in cross-continental travel and diverting their expenditure. As I have indicated, each day, travel-related economic activity from Canada. hardly an exception, the opposition, members of the public call for more spending in health. The fe deral government must make a Education and basic social services also receive reasonable and responsible contribution to a demand for more dollars. In the great public national highway program through the road fuel debate, infrastructure rarely seemsto be high on taxes it currently collects or vacate the tax field the public's and the opposition's agenda. to enable the provinces to solve the problem themselves. The government, as I have These are contending fo rces, and in difficult indicated, of Manitoba opposes any increase in times, as we have been in the last decade, gasoline taxes, toll roads or other user-pay regrettably infrastructure has not been viewed initiatives to pay fo r a national highway necessarily by the public as a high priority as program. Manitoba strongly advocates that the health and other areas. The department is national highway system be funded from the currently exploring alternative highway existing level of highway-use related revenue. financing options, investigating how other juris­ dictions are addressing the problem, and Mr. Chair, it is important to look at the participating on a federal-provincial-territorial sustainability of our highway system. In doing committee examining the feasibility of various so, to appreciate that unless our transportation partnerships to build roads. But I want to say infrastructure has access to a sustainable very clearly to my critic that toll roads do not ongoing source of revenue, it will continue to fo rm in any way part of the policy of this decline on a regular basis. As minister, I have governmentfo r financing our road system. become a very strong advocate for the dedication of fuel taxes to maintaining that highway The federal government, Mr. Chair, is a system. jurisdiction that has to accept now some of its responsibility in the area of transportation. I want to say to my critic, the need to Federal government policy decisions, the dedicate becomes very important. I know we as elimination of the Western Grain Transportation a government are certainly now looking at this in subsidy, the elimination of subsidies to a very, very serious way. I have certainly been branchline railroads and a variety of other things advocating, and the Minister of Finance (Mr. have resulted in an increased traffic flow on our Gilleshammer) and I have had discussions about roads. At the same time, the fe deral government it, but the need to dedicate those taxes to provide collects, on average in Manitoba from '92-93 to the discipline for supporting that highway '97-98, $132.7 million annually from fuel taxes infrastructure is critical. in our province. This year that should be some­ where in the neighbourhood of $147 million in As I have said before, in Manitoba today, fuel taxes. During the same period, '92-93 to the cost of maintaining our road system versus '97-98, the federal contribution to Manitoba's what we collect off of it, when we sort of do the 3098 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 calculation because there are some parts that are My fe ar with the national highways program not borne directly by the Department of as a one-time program over one or two years is Highways, obviously the cost of policing roads that the national government would then say: is one of them. We look at the revenues we we have done our share, we solved the problem­ derive off that system; we are virtually awash. and walk away. Just as they had a health budget Manitoba already now is dedicating the revenues a couple of years ago: there, we solved the we derive, not directly but indirectly, dedicating problem. Just as they have had an education those to supporting that system and to call upon budget: there, we solved the problem. We can the national government to do the same with hear them saying: we will have a transportation their 140, this year 47 million, that they will budget, there, we solved the problem. In the end collect, I think, certainly offers us a vehicle to of the day, they have only helped for those years, ensure a financial sustainability to our highway and they walk away still leaving significant system, and obviously the municipalities have to issues in health and education and in be part of that. transportation to the provincial partners in this fe deration. * (1520) Mr. Chair, I ask my colleague, and I know Mr. Chair, if the fe deral government is not he has asked me questions in the House, I ask interested, we ask they vacate their system. We him and his party to be supportive of this do say that there is a role for the national initiative as we move forward. There are a government to play in the development of our number of other areas that this department is national highway system in ensuring that we are certainly involved in. Northern airports, the building the east-west arteries of trade and need again, because many of those communities commerce and of travel that Canadians want to that are serviced by them are First Nations make sure dollars out of these now fe deral communities where there is a fiduciary fe deral revenues are dedicated to that role. There is also responsibility. It is important for us to develop a role for the national governmentto ensure that partnerships. Our airports capital budget has our southern Canada border links are properly been increased by $1 million to help address built and developed to support our growing some of the capital improvement projects commerce in the North American marketplace, identified by the provincial airports working and that our southernCanada to northern Canada group. Certainly, safety is a very important transportation links are developed to take issue to us within the resources that are advantage of the great opportunities still to come available, and we again will need to have those out of Canada's northland and be developed federal partners at the table. there. There is a role fo r the national govern­ ment. If they refuse to do nothing, they should In the very important trucking industry, we at least get out of the way and abandon the tax have reviews underway regarding whether room. Our preference would be that they be at Manitoba should discontinue the issuance of the table and involved just as municipalities need operating authorities or combine them into a to be fo r their share of our national or our single document along with a safety certificate. provincial transportation system and the roles We are looking at a number of changes to The that they play. Highway Traffic Act with respect to vehicle weights not being dependent on the So this is becoming certainly a role for us. classification of the transportation service or would report to the committee as well that the business, things that would make more common discussion of a national highways program by sense based on actual damage or role those the national government is certainly welcome, vehicles play on the roadway as opposed to their but if it is to be one-time payment, yes, we will particular classification or use. We certainly take the money and we will use it, but it will not want to continue to ensure that with larger solve the problems fac ing us unless we have a vehicles on our roads that safety is an important sustainable ongoing source of funding to ensure aspect, that the roads remain safe for all we were doing regular work on maintaining and motorists, and that the large carriers are able to developing our transportation network. certainly be handled safely on our roadways. June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3099

One very important issue, I think, to the bring a review of the grain transportation system province in terms of the trucking industry is which virtually every farm organization has said regulatory harmonization. When we look today is inadequate, and now that the subsidy on grain at our nation, we have different regulatory transportation has been removed, the farmers of regimes across the land, which I think does our province are paying for. I think they are nothing to further the national trade and trucking demanding efficiencies in that system. industry. As a province that hosts a significant portion of the national trucking industry, it is I say this to the member that the No. certainly in our interest to ensure that Manitoba prerequisite for Manitoba's involvement in this trucks and truckers can move freely in a process is that the savings resulting from the harmonized regulatory system across the width efficiencies are returned to the producer, that if and breadth of this nation. I would hope that, as the Estey process does not result in savings to the Minister of Highways, we can reach the producer, then it will probably die the death agreements on an all-Canadian basis that will of so many other reports. But ultimately, much eventually see vehicles subject, of course, to is dependent upon it. We are very pleased to some unique geographic and climatic conditions see, and as western provinces including the New in various parts of the country, be able to be Democratic governments in Saskatchewan and licensed and regulated by the same scheme British Columbia, along with our colleagues in across this country, so that trucks can roll Alberta, we all called for, met with the federal without having to worry about different minister, the appointment of a facilitator to put licensing regimes and find paperwork and flesh on the bones of the Estey report. regulatory barriers in their way from carrying the commerce of our nation. I know that my critic's party has taken the position of opposing Estey outright. We If we do not move quickly on this as disagreed with that. We think we should go the provinces, Mr. Chair, and territories, we will be next stage to put details around the concepts and overtaken I am sure by the same desire to see not condemn the concepts until we see what they harmonization on a North American basis which would look like. I note that the Legislature will certainly be required as we see the North defeated by a very significant margin the American trade group of countries grow and resolution which would have called for our total develop their commerce. The lesson to us as withdrawal from any involvement in this Canadians is to get our own act together quickly process. in the regulatory field, becausewe certainly will be called upon I think in the not too distant But we are there, like our fe llow western future to see harmonization on a North American provinces, being part of it now as the concepts basis. As a province that is host to a very are fleshed out, meat is put on the bone. A the significant portion of the northern North end of the day, when that process is reported, we American highway trucking industry, being able will then see what this will look like. We can to see our trucking companies and our truckers then, I think, cast a more educated and reasoned travel again the width and breadth of this judgment on Estey, rather than the kind of quick continent under a common regulatory scheme is, preliminary judgment that my critic and his I think, critical to ensuring that our trucking colleagues passed and urged the government of industry grows and prospers in carrying the Manitoba to also do last week. goods of other North Americans around North America and bringing their paycheques and So there is a great deal of work to be done in taxes home to Manitoba. So it is very critical for this area, and I look forward to working with my us to see this happen. colleagues, the ministers from the Saskatchewan, British Columbia and Alberta, in the weeks On the grain transportation side, this ahead as this process rolls on. department is certainly involved in the report of Mr. Justice Estey on the review of the grain We are also pleased in the railway area to transportation system. As in all things, this is a see the creation of a number of short lines in very complex matter. We applaud the effort to Manitoba. Obviously the Hudson's Bay railroad, 3100 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 that I know affects the member fo r Flin Flon's Developing, as I have indicated before, our (Mr. Jennissen) constituency, the Sherridon trade network, our road system, our rail system, subdivision, is proving to be quite successful our air system to be able to appropriately move from all reports that I have seen recently. goods is critical to our productivity in the future Regrettably, or perhaps not regrettably, it is a as a province. We look forward to the continued fe deral jurisdiction railway because of the small growth in our economy, as we have seen, and it part of track that runs through Saskatchewan. is our challenge in Transportation to ensure that Although we passed some years ago short-line we are working with the transportation industry legislation in Manitoba, we have not had call to to develop our trade corridors and routes. actually put that into effect. We now do. Certainly the mid-continent trade corridor is of great importance to me and to this government, * (1530) and I look fo rward to working very closely with our partners towards the advancing of this The Manitoba central railroad has already project. been created in the province running lines to Pine Falls, I know, in my country, and one I I look fo rward to the day when a good or believe to Carman. We have also seen an product can travel from Churchill through announcement in short-lining a subdivision Winnipeg to Mexico City or from Mexico City through Souris, Hartney districts. I also note the through Winnipeg to Churchill and anywhere Prairie Dog Central has been established as else in the world from that port. We certainly another short line. So we will have a number of have many exciting challenges ahead of us but short-line operators. many, many opportunities. We also work very closely in the Nunavut initiative, one of interest As a consequence, we have put into effect to the member in the North, as we welcome our under the short-line railroad act the necessary new territorial partner in Canada's Confedera­ regulations to govern and inspect for the safety tion. As the only southern province with a land issues and other matters around those short lines. boundary with that new territory, we are hopeful We of course are working very closely with our that the development of their economy and fe deral counterparts not to have to reinvent the resupply some day-it may not happen in the wheel or establish inspection branches. We are immediate future but some day we will see, as able to contract with them to do a portion of that we develop our north-south links, a land link to work and adopt their standards, which makes that territory with, of course, Churchill being the only good sense. jumping off point. That is very exciting, and we certainly want to be working with Nunavut on Mr. Chair, another area I guess that I would their transportation issues and needs and hope like to touch upon in my remarks is the whole that Manitoba will some day be a beneficiary of development, of course, of the Mid-Continent that kind of development. Trade Corridor in trade. In 1997, Manitoba's overall exports to the United States increased by Mr. Chair, as the member knows, some of over 19 percent over the previous year to $5.35 our initiatives fo r this year are off-road vehicle billion. This was the third-strongest growth rate legislation which was introduced in the House, among the provinces and significantly higher which I understand the member will be speaking than the national gain of only 9.6 percent. As to some time in the not too distant future, where we see the North American market develop, as we extend the drunk-driving, impaired-driving we see the revolutions take place in agriculture provisions to off-road vehicles. I think for both with the loss of the Crow rate, where we see so of us who have constituencies with many off­ much more of our grain now being fe d into road vehicles, we appreciate the importance of livestock and other products being produced, the the expansion of this legislation. Maple Leaf plant in Brandon, we are seeing a whole score of new products, the Isobord plant The reflective marking on commercial using an agricultural by-product to produce trailers, we are also working in this area. It is countertops. All of these advances are finding already a requirement for trailers travelling into large markets across North America. the United States, again part of that harmoni- June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3101 zation and certainly improvement of safety. I in days gone by-and the member fo r Flin Flon know that there are consultations we are working whose constituents have lived very closely with on on bus safety, which is very important the old Canadian National Railroad knows that particularly fo r school buses. client service, competitiveness, meeting need, was not necessarily synonymous with the In the area of climate change, we are railway business in Canada. One of the messages certainly involved in the whole process I delivered very clearly there today, it was I sponsored by the federal government to see thought very clearly, was that you should not be Canada fulfill its requirements under the Kyoto using punitive gas taxes to fo rce people onto a Accord. We are in fact chairing the national system that is not being competitive or client freight subtable of the transportation table and friendly. I also recognize that there has been working to ensure that national solutions are some many changes by the railways in the last consistent with our capabilities to fu lfill them few years to improve their service, improve their and ensuring that Manitoba companies are efficiency, become more cost competitive and, I positioned to capture new economic oppor­ think, really take the trucking industry back on tunities resulting from changes arising from in moving freight in cost-efficient and client­ meeting Canada's environmental commitments. oriented manner.

We certainly believe that that process, if On that particular note, I know the member done reasonably, can advance and improve our fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) will likely be climate and at the same time, if we are again speaking in these Estimates at some point. The innovative, not result in economic displacement. further developments of intermodal oppor­ tunities, particularly those that allow a choice One concern that I have in this area is the between railroad services, are very critical, concept floated by the national government of again, to ensuring competitiveness in the railroad increasing the fu el tax by some 10 cents a litre as and in the transportation industry. I know we a punitive measure against automobile consump­ will be speaking about the Patterson grain tion. I have expressed to federal representatives elevator project and the road service, that being and to others in the transportation industry that one project that provides access to a delivery that may not in fact be something that is point fo r two railroads thereby ensuring that a acceptable to Canadians nor be effective. For competitive situation exists which ultimately, I members like my critic the member for Flin Flon would hope, provide some significant benefit to (Mr. Jennissen), for people like me representing the producers who provide the grain going Lac du Bonnet where so many of our people through that particular elevator. So these become have so few choices in transportation, this would very important issues ensuring that we have truly be a punitive measure that would be very good intermodal development to continue to be a unlikely to have the desired effect. So these major player in transportation. concerns have been expressed and will continue to be, and I would hope that the member fo r Flin If we look at our province now, so much of Flon would join us in ensuring that other more the freight from western Canada flows through innovative means are found of meeting our Winnipeg going south as a turning point from requirements. the West to the South. That is something we hope to see developed so that as many of those I attended this morning, or at noon hour, a jobs and opportunities with that kind of conference in the railway and environment transportation system grow in our province. It is sector, and this matter was certainly being not just jobs in the railways and those providing discussed. I had the opportunity to make some it. It is the jobs that are created because we are comments on it, and what I found, again, very on a major international North American interesting was that fo r many there, the argument transportation network that make us a very about certainly rail being more efficient and competitive place to build a factory, build an environmentally friendly, many truths to that, industry, because it is very easy to get the goods but they had to be reminded that the history of to market. Although we have very, very the railroad of service, of meeting customer need competitive electrical rates and a very motivated 3102 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 and well-educated labour force and many other sometimes put us in a rather contradictory advantages here, they are fo r naught, in many position. cases, if our transportation economics are not there to move those goods to the huge market to I am very happy to hear him say that toll the South. So this much work has to be done in roads will not fo rm part of this government's this area. thrust, because I know that is not popular in many parts of this country. I am fu lly aware as I know I have spoken a fa ir bit of time here, the minister pointed out that infrastructure does but I wanted to give the member a fl avour of have low sex appeal. It is not something that how I am approaching this department and the voters get cranked on, but on the other hand, issues as I see them as the new Minister of voters get very angry when the road is bumpy or Highways and Transportation. Thank you, Mr. not surfaced properly and so on. Like I say, the Chair, for the indulgence of the time of the infrastructure in general may have low sex members of the committee. appeal, but it is very basic and very necessary.

Given that these Estimates do cover the Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Minister of period leading us into the new millennium, I Highways and Transportation fo r those com­ think it would be normal to focus on the future, ments. Does the official opposition critic, the but of course we need to take stock of where we honourable member for Flin Flon, have an are positioned right now as well. Therefore I opening statement? think it is appropriate to look at not only the year 2000 and beyond, but also to review the past 11 * (1540) years under this administration and ask if things could have been done differently or better, and I Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Yes, I do, am sure they could have been, but then the Mr. Chair. First of all, I would like to take the wisdom of hindsight is always 20-20. opportunity to welcome the minister to his new portfolio, his relatively new portfolio, and also I do know that there have been no sudden or thank the outgoing minister, who I take it will be dramatic changes in the Highways department retiring from politics, because I know he was from the 1980s, but if I may be biased somewhat certainly a hard-working minister. At the same in the North there is the general perception, and I time I also once again would like to welcome the certainly share it, that there seems to be a shift in minister's staff because I know them to be focus from the 1980s and that the shift in focus dedicated and very hard-working people. is in the sense that we are not expanding our roads and airports like we used to, the network, I was happy to hear from the minister that he and you could argue, well, we have saturated the realizes, and I was sure that he would, that we in province. That is not true. Like, expansion of Manitoba, the Keystone Province, are in a the system is simply not even on the table at this unique position geographically and otherwise to point, and I know there are financial reasons for be a major player in transportation in Canada, it, but it is still something that somewhere in and I am fairly happy he pointed that out one long-range planning has to occur and we have to more time. I am also happy to note that there talk about. has been a slight increase in the overall funding for Highways and Transportation, not enormous That leads me to the next portion when I talk admittedly, but at least a moderate increase and about expansion. That is airports and northern also no layoffs . I think that is rather important. airports because we are dealing with airports The minister talked about contending forces that that, I think, were built in most cases at least, I are out there and some of these appear to be am guessing, 20-some years ago, and they have contradictory forces, and we have to work out not kept pace with technology or the new what I guess what they call in Latin a modus aircraft. So in a sense we are saying we are vivendi, a way to live, a middle way, because the using almost early 20th Century airports fo r 21st wish list on the one hand and what we can do on Century planes. I think a lot of work needs to be the other hand with limited finances seems to done, and I know it will cost a lot of money. June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3103

Highways and Transportation is a very bread terminus, but the logical place it more or less and butter department. Most Manitobans deal ends would be Churchill, but then Churchill does with it mainly as the result of the action or not really end because there is Nunavut and inaction sometimes of this department nearly Keewatin and resupplying those areas. So we every single day of their lives. You cannot are indeed talking about a north-south flow of escape it because you are driving down roads or goods from the Nunavut through Churchill all highways and you cannot escape making the way to Mexico City and beyond. comments on the quality of Manitoba roads and sometimes comparing those roads and highways I think we have to look at those larger with those of other jurisdictions, be it those of pictures, those greater implications, even as we Alberta or Saskatchewan or the United States or are dealing with very finite dollars and talking even Europe. I think it is appropriate that we do about grading Highway 391, very specific some of those comparisons here as well, in this things, but, at the same time, we cannot forget Chamber, which in many ways is the most the overall and much larger pictures. Certainly public of reviews of the department. In this as I look around, I see some major trends. The particular place it is the most public of reviews. minister has discussed them to some degree, Talk about comparing and contrasting our roads, major trends that were particularly noticeable in rail or air systems with those of other the last decade or so, the north-south flow of jurisdictions, I guess one thing we do run into, goods and commodities, as I have said before, people say, well, you are comparing apples and the greater emphasis on air travel, especially in oranges, this is not Europe, this is not the United northern and remote communities. A number of States. It is quite true. I do understand that there decades ago, air travel was virtually nonexistent are different population densities, political in northern Manitoba. Then a few decades ago, systems, taxation systems, geographic size, and we did put in airports, but I think they were put so on. I also realize when I visit Europe in, perhaps if I can use the word, to a pioneering particularly, a nation like the Netherlands, which standard. I think they were basically there, or has a much richer, much more condensed largely there, for medivac reasons, and to some transportation system, we can be envious of degree resupply reasons. Most of the heavy those systems. But you know, we do not have, supplies, I think, would go by winter road, but what is it, 16 million people cramped in a that has changed. That nature of airport usage geographic size about one-thirteenth the size of has changed. People now use those airports for Manitoba. So their efficiencies are partially due many, many other reasons, and the traffic is to the fact they are extremely small nations. increasing. The airplanes are getting better, volume increasing, and yet the airports have Regardless of that, the rhetoric is still very stayed largely the same. That situation obviously often about the marketplace, and there is only will lead to problems; in fact, we have had one global marketplace in which we must problems including some tragic ones. compete. The networking that we must do with other jurisdictions at the same time that we are As well, I believe, there has been a trend, competing with them, and I notice particularly, and the minister has made reference of that, to the minister has made reference of that, the great great rail and truck rationalization processes that increase in north-south flow of goods and are at work here. We have lost, I think, for some commodities. I am very happy to note the trucking companies, our status as being the minister putting emphasis on the fact that when headquarters here in Winnipeg. I notice Reimer we are looking at larger structures such as trade is no longer headquartered here. Nonetheless, corridors, he referenced I believe the Mid­ we are stiii a very significant player in the continent Trade Corridor, or as we referred to it market. in the past, the Central North American Trade Corridor. I am happy to point out I have attended As well and the minister has pointed this a number of meetings dealing with people who out, the Estey report attempts to address the are trying to push that corridor. Then, if we are grain transportation system needs and a more talking about that corridor, we should be positive change in direction for producers. I do pointing out that the logical, not even the not believe the minister is accurate in suggesting 3104 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 that we are totally opposed to Estey. I think it is But again in the past we had trouble with CN, - too early to say we are opposed to Estey, and we continue to have trouble with Via Rail in opposed to parts of Estey or at least looking at it meeting our needs. Whether they are passenger critically, because we are worried that the cars-I could talk fo r half a day about the producers may get hurt and perhaps unjustifiably problems, fo r example, the people in because of the historical record. A suspicion of Pukatawagan have with Via Rail, about the lack the large railroads that to some of those of cars or the cars are way too old. There are not efficiencies,some of those rationalizations, those enough cars. People have to travel in baggage money savings will not be passed on to the cars and so on. So there are all kinds of horror producer. So we are, I think, justifiably stories as well. somewhat gun-shy of saying, holus-bolus, it is a great report, we support it 100 percent. But the potential is there fo r those northern lines, and I hope they will always be there, those It is correct to say that we do know there are northern lines. That was somewhat in doubt in some very strong positives in the Estey report, the middle of 1996 when, on July 1, the and we will look at it carefully. But we would Canadian government basically walked away hate to say that we support it 100 percent at this from those lines and said, well, we are willing to stage without fu rther studying it very carefully. sell them fo r scrap. I remember, and I am sure the minister can recall, Paul Tellier's attitude * (1550) about those northern lines when we met with him here in Winnipeg. I fe lt that Mr. Tellier was As well, obviously, the nature of northern much more concerned, and perhaps he should railroads has changed. The minister pointed out be, with his shareholders in New York than he OmniTRAX's purchase of the CN's Bay Line was with a Canadian vision, that is, that whole and the Sherridon line I think has been very region being at risk. His argument was, well, we positive for northern Manitoba I am extremely want to make a buck and, more or less, we do pleased to see the Hudson Bay railroad investing not care how we make that buck as long as we effort and energy and putting forth innovative make it. You guys in northern Manitoba can solutions to make short-line railroading work in shift for yourselves. That was the impression I northern Manitoba. I just happen to notice an got. I was not very happy with it. It certainly awful lot of work being done on the line. I walk was quite a philosophical diffe rence from Sir that line on occasion. I notice there are new ties John A. Macdonald and trying to tie this nation being put in. There is a lot more gravel. The together with steel threads. engines are being spruced up in different colours so when they go by the track they fit the northern landscape and so on and so on. There The vision of the fe deral government being is a fe eling of new impetus and a new push north involved in transportation seems to have taken a and south. very low standing, and I guess we could argue whether it is a progressive or retrograde step but I am very happy to note that we are looking certainly opting out of railroads, ports, airports at using not only the Sherridon line but and so on, Nav Canada, it is a concern we have. specifically the Hudson Bay line for products we What role should a fe deral government play in have not talked about much before. Certainly, I keeping transportation links across this country, was very happy to see some backhaul from in north, south, in good shape? What input Spain coming last summer, copper ore all the should they have, and how much effort and way from Spain being backhauled through energy should they devote to it? They are Churchill to Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting basically saying let us leave it to the in Flin Flon. Those are the kinds of things that marketplace, and there are some reasons for that. we need to make that railroad successful so that That will tend to put large regions of this country they are not hauling just grain one way and at risk unless we as a provincial government, in nothing back the other way. I think there is a the case of northern Manitoba, can find ways tremendous potential there, apart fr om tourist around that and make sure the potential of potential, and the tourist potential is enormous. northern Manitoba is realized. June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3105

The minister mentioned Nunavut. We are Sherridon-Cold Lake is roughly 80 kilometres hoping that when we talk about Nunavut, not from Highway No. 10. It was a pioneering road, just the resupply of Nunavut and the former a logging road, a Repap-Telko road, but is now Keewatin district, that we also keep in mind that being used by the community of Sherridon-Cold when we are talking roads, perhaps in the near Lake when the road was extended. future, into Nunavut, we are studying that, and I would like to ask the minister some questions on When I travelled that road the other week, it that, as well as power lines, that we have an was very wet and slippery, and I was certainly open mind on it because there are some glad that I had a fo ur-wheel drive with me. competing regions of the province. I am thinking Despite that, I almost slipped off the road several obviously the Churchill direction up to Nunavut, times. It was a very rough road. It was not but there is also the other direction championed graded very well. It is hazardous. People fr om by places like Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake, Brochet, Sherridon tell me they have counted. Now I have Lac Brochet, Tadoule Lake and so on. Their no reason to doubt this, but I have some reason argument is that a road link, fo r example, to to wonder why anybody would go to the Nunavut would go much better over the higher trouble-but they have counted 234 relatively ground of that territory. In fa ct, the Town of sharp bends on that road. Not all of them are Lynn Lake has strongly endorsed that this sharp bends, but some of them are blind curves government push that direction. Of course, we and are very, very dangerous. notice there is also the competing direction which would go through Churchill. I cannot The road is unbrushed largely. It is narrow, come down one way or the other, which would it is winding, as I have said before, and there be better. I think that has to be studied, and I have been numerous accidents on it. Now we think it is still in the study phase, but I just want can argue that with limited finances we can only to alert the minister that there is more than one upkeep existing road systems, and I am sure route possible. Certainly Lynn Lake would really some people are aggravated by the fact we have prefer to see that other route, and their argument tried to increase the road network by including also makes a lot of sense. places like Sherridon. I think eventually we have to do that to all our communities, not just Having said that, there are a number of Sherridon but those communities without all­ issues that have to be worked out with the Dene weather road access. But to take the Sherridon people regardless which route fu ture roads or road, there have been numerous accidents. power lines might take. There is Cyril Perry, former mayor of the community, badly hurt in an accident. Ed Head To change tenor somewhat, Mr. Minister, and his fam ily; Ed Head was the former fo r most Manitobans highways and trans­ president of the MMF, badly hurt, crippled, portation basically means roads. That is the case paralyzed in an accident. Other people were in most of Manitoba, but perhaps not so in the hurt. One of his relatives, a woman, lost her northern part of Manitoba, part of which I have baby. Art Reimer, Christmas of '97, lost his life the privilege to represent. But in general, people on this road. want decent, safe, reliable, all-weather roads. That is the case everywhere, but as I point out Now this is a road that is not hugely mainly in northern Manitoba where they do not travelled. Yes, it is there fo r tourism. It is there have those roads in some cases. fo r hauling logs, but when you consider the number of people on the road, there have been a As someone who has lived and worked in tremendous number of injuries and fatalities, northern Manitoba fo r 30 years, I have a very deaths. So that is an example of one road that keen interest in seeing that our roads are we have to deal with. properly maintained and safe. To give you an example, I recently had the opportunity of We know that fixing that road, and that is visiting the community of Sherridon-Cold Lake, just one road, would help Sherridon-Cold Lake and I use that just as an example of visiting one with their tourist potential because this is a of the many communities out there. The road to tourist area. This is an area that has had some 3106 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

hard times. It was a mining community fr om '3 1 been a difficult one. I could, as well, talk about - to '51, '52. The town was moved north on sleds northern roads. Prior to the '95 election there to Lynn Lake, most of the town, two churches, I was a promise that contingent on Repap believe, and about 100 houses lifted off the expansion there would be $90 million dedicated fo undations and sledded north by Lynn tractors, to fixing northern roads. That of course never hence the name Lynn Lake. But this town has materialized after the election. never died. This town has refused to die, and people are hard at work trying to make it work. * (1600) I am happy to say that the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman) is trying to put a fair bit So I would like to have the minister consider of effort, energy and money into helping that the fact that it is not just a question of community, but it is just one of many maintaining what we have, but I think we should communities. also be expanding. Lord knows, it is not going to be easy with the monies available. All I would like to say is that that road is essential to that community. It is a lifeline. This The minister talked about airports, the perhaps is a point that we have to make, not just northern airports. We all remember the 1997 as a critic of Highways but to southerners in crash at Little Grand Rapids, a tragic crash. All general, that in the North very often we do not of us are aware that much more work needs to be have a lot of options when it comes to roads. If , done on northern airports. We have had in a Manitoba community, in most Manitoba problems with medivac planes. Not so long ago communities in the south, you are ill, fo r there was a medivac plane problem in South example, and have to go to a larger community Indian Lake. I am given to understand it was and one road should happen to be washed out, just a technical problem. But I do know that let us say, you could still travel fo ur or five other when I was in Lac Brochet not too long ago, the ways out of that town, but you cannot do that airstrip had a whole number of problems. when you live in Sherridon. There is only one way out and one way in, the same way with Leaf Due to wet and soft conditions of the Rapids and Lynn Lake and Snow Lake and airstrip, Calm Air was fo rced to temporarily many, many other communities. We have to, I suspend service to the community. One small think, consider that because we do not have plane was stuck fo r three days on the Lac those same options. To us it is not just a road, it Brochet airstrip apron, which is partially is also a lifeline in many cases. muskeg. Apparently that airport is to be I would like to also talk about another road, lengthened, but I am not sure how that is going Mr. Minister, and that is the road to to happen, because one end is right at the Jake Pukatawagan, which does not, as yet, exist. It is abruptly, and the other end is, as far as I know, definitely needed. We have talked about this deep muskeg. I know that Chief John Dantouze before. Pukatawagan is a community of 2,000 and his council are working hard to lobby for people. It is serviced by rail sporadically, does improvement of that airstrip, and that is just one have an airport, which I hope is in the process of airstrip. There are a Jot of others that the being lengthened, but it is very expensive to fly minister knows need to be upgraded. in and out. Just to give the minister an example, a number of years ago I talked with the nurses in We fe el that northern Manitobans have to be Pukatawagan, and they said that in that one year given better service. They do not want to be 300-and-some medivac planes entered Pukata­ treated like second-class citizens. It is not just a wagan. If you take a look at the cost of the matter of medivac access like only emergencies. medivac, I think it would be much simpler to I think we have to have a broader vision and a make that road connection from the Tolko­ larger vision about making it possible that all Repap roads and connect Pukatawagan. So that citizens of the province have either road access is a pitch I am making fo r that road . or reliable air access to the larger centres of this province. That means, I guess, creating more Of course, I could talk about 391, Lynn roads. I do not know where the funding will Lake and Leaf Rapids. That road has always come from, but we cannot ignore it. We need a June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3107

larger plan, a larger v1s1on. It is not good change their ways. Certainly that is not a enough to say, well, let us look at it next year. I surprise. We could spend a Jot of time together think at some point we are going to have to say fe dbashing, but I think we need some practical this is phase 1, this is phase 2, this is phase 3. direct one-step-after-the-next approach to getting Hopefully the fe ds will get involved. They the fe ds to listen. would have to get involved, at any rate, as the Lastly, before I stop, Mr. Minister, in light minister pointed out. of the Provincial Auditor's report in the spring of 1998 in his Value-for-Money audit, I hope the I note that my time is somewhat limited, so minister and his staff will give me an update as in conclusion I would like to say I would like to to the degree of implementation of the key get started with the Estimates process. I would recommendations. Those recommendations in a like, first of all, if the minister would agree, and nutshell on page 50 of the report are, and this I think he intimated as much last Thursday, go might be a good place to start off fo r the with some general questions, more philosophical minister, and I will just repeat them. I am questions, perhaps, in which there may be shortening the actual recommendations. Three genuinely diffe ring points of view. Certainly I of them, the first one was adopting a lease have some concerns. I note full well that the lifetime cost methodology in determining minister and the previous minister have said that rehabilitation and maintenance strategies, we need $1.5 billion to upgrade our road system, priorities, and budgets; secondly, documenting yet we only have $100 million to $1 10 million relative emphasis of various planning inputs for capital projects every year. That is obviously which underlie rationale fo r construction a dilemma. The minister has referenced the fact rehabilitation project priorities. I am particularly that the trend is to larger trucks and more traffic interested in the relative weight of socio­ and that a lot of the rail Jines are being economic factors in project prioritizations. In abandoned or at least there is a process of rail other words, what constitutes needs? Is it the line abandonment which is not really the number of cars travelling on a highway, or is it direction we want to go, I would guess, if we an isolated region where improved transportation want to save money on road maintenance, and is a life-and-death issue? Is it a safety factor certainly not the way to go if we are talking versus an absolute need factor? And the post­ about the Kyoto Protocol and the lessening of implementation reviews to check out to see if greenhouse emissions. anticipated benefits were actually realized, in other words, you said you were going to do that, The minister has suggested much more well, did it actually happen? involvement by this province and the fe deral government especially on a national highway Now maybe those are three very difficult system and national highway strategy, that the places to start, I do not know if the minister fe els fe ds have to put a Jot more money into roads, they are or not, but if they are not, this might be and there is no doubt about that. I think it has a good place fo r us to start in general. Thank been shameful that they have been allowed to you, Mr. Chair. walk away fr om what I think is their historical responsibilities. I do not know of any other Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic of the industrialized nation, certainly not in Europe or official opposition fo r those remarks. Under the even south of the border where they are putting Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's in $200 billion over the next fe w years, where a Salary is traditionally the last item considered central government has abdicated its fo r the Estimates of a department. Accordingly, responsibilities for transportation, not just roads we shall defer consideration of this item and but also its lack of concern for airports and now proceed with consideration of the next line. trying to dump those on various communities Before we do that, we invite the minister's staff and cities, sometimes with success, sometimes to join us at the table, and we ask the minister to without success. Yes, we need, I think, some introduce his staff present. strategies. We have to work together with the fe deral government, and I guess basically get Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, if I could introduce them to the table and agree that they have to my staff. First of all, Mr. John Hosang, who is 3108 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

- the assistant deputy minister fo r Engineering and Mr. Jennissen: In terms of general fr amework Technical Services, and the assistant deputy of time, it was I 0 hours, and I am guessing that minister of Transportation Safety and Regulatory today and tomorrow it would be the bulk of the Services; Mr. Don Norquay, who is the assistant material. Possibly Wednesday might be needed deputy minister fo r Policy, Planning and as well. I cannot say fo r sure fo r the simple Development; Ms. Marlene Zyluk, who is the reason that, when some of my colleagues wax registrar of motor vehicles and assistant deputy eloquent about rural roads, they tend to go on fo r minister fo r Driver and Vehicle Licencing; Mr. a long time. If I knew that they were not going Paul Rochon, who is the assistant deputy to do that, I could give you a much crisper minister fo r Administration; and of course, Mr. answer. Barry Tinkler, known to most MLAs, particularly rural MLAs, the assistant deputy Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, that is fa ir. minister in charge of Construction and Main­ tenance, the big spender in my department. Mr. Jennissen: Is it acceptable to the minister to deal with the Auditor's report fr om last year and the three key recommendations and give us Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister. an update so that I get a fe eling of, yes, we have Befo re we proceed any fu rther, is it the will of met those recommendations or are in the process the committee to centre in or to ask general of meeting those? questions and pass the lines at the end of the questions? Agreed? [agreed] Mr. Praznik: Yes, first of all, my department advises me that a couple of the things they have We will now proceed to 15. I. done are that the Trans-Cad computer software Administration and Finance (b) Executive program has been acquired, which will improve Support (I) Salaries and Employee Benefits on transportation analysis, modelling and highway page 91 of the Estimates book. Shall the item fe ature mapping capabilities; and that our asset pass? management system has been acquired to identify highway maintenance and rehabilitation Mr. Jennissen: Mr. Chair, I am hoping this is needs and the appropriate timing of remedial agreeable to the minister, to deal with the action to provide fo r the least lifetime costing. general overviews first. Maybe, with some of Those are a couple of things that have been the more philosophical debates, get them under­ done. As well, the department has engaged way, and tomorrow, hopefully, more specific. I Lovett Consultants at a cost of about $25,000 to know some of my colleagues have asked if they develop a transparent and defensible fr amework could be given some time to ask questions on fo r the analysis and weighing of all planning specific roads or specific projects and so on, but information inputs, highway needs assessment, today, I think, fairly general questions, overall benefit cost analysis, and socioeconomic factors questions. We may get to it line by line, I am to improve in our construction planning. I want not sure; if we do, we do. Is that agreeable in to just comment on that for a moment when I am general to the minister? finished with this.

* (1610) With respect to long-term planning a process is also being looked at to develop a long-term Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I am just wondering highway infrastructure strategy involving how much time the official opposition has extensive stakeholder public consultation, and allotted. I appreciate as well that the members looking at working with local governments in of the Liberal caucus may have questions, that particular process, it is my intention to see particularly in one area, but I have no problem that get underway this fa ll. Right now we are with freewheeling debate and that other doing many of the preliminary documents that members may want to come in with specific will fo rm the basis of that. questions. I would just like to have some knowledge of what questions and when so that I do want to make just some general we can be sure we have the right staff here. comments about this. When you have an infra- June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3109

stmcture system and it requires, fo r argument's highway system. I did not say this work is not sake, some $200 million a year to maintain and important, but as long as we continue to not have enhance and you are spending $110 million on access to the whole pot of gasoline tax money, it, I do not care what system you have in place as long as we continue to see hundreds of other for prioritization, you are going to be under siege issues capture the public's imagination, it will be all the time. So, until we are able to address that difficult for whatever politician to be able to fundamental issue of sustainable sufficient make the argument to the public about the need funding fo r a highway system, we are going to for the kind of sustainable support for continue to see our system erode on an annual maintaining our entire system. basis. The member specifically referenced The member has made a very I think socioeconomic factors. Those are very good insightful comment. He has been critic here fo r questions. I am looking fo rward to seeing the a number of years and he has watched the work done of our consultant. I certainly, as debates in the House. Highway and highway minister, will not implement it just because it infrastructure are not sexy to the general public. was done by a consultant. It has to make They are certainly not sexy to the Free Press and common sense to me, and I have to fe el the Winnipeg Sun and the CBC and most media comfortable defending it. Ultimately many of outlets, and they are long-term issues. The these things will boil down to subjective deterioration of roads is something that rarely decision making. You know one of the happens overnight. Yes, we will have something difficulties I have with this process is that one fa ll apart, and there will be a big story about it. can apply many diffe rent systems of analysis, But generally speaking, it is something that goes but many of these decisions, particularly when on day in and day out, little bit by little bit by one considers the socioeconomic factors, there is little bit, and it does not gamer the kind of public a great deal of subjectivity to them. The attention. It does not make its way into the member and I know that. public debates. It does not make its way into the kind of demands on governance that the member Even if one puts a weighting system to it, fo r Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) and his colleagues somebody still has to subjectively apply that and myself and my colleagues have to deal with weighting. How do you weigh these things out? every day in balancing the needs and the wants It becomes a subjective test. Ultimately I am a of the community. great believer in the British parliamentary system. We as elected members are elected to I am not to say that we as politicians just this place by our constituents and will be held react totally to media all the time, but certainly accountable to our constituents fo r the decisions the public's agenda, and where we believe that we make, good and bad. investments have to be made for the long-term wealth of the province, we have to be able to Of course we have a responsibility to ensure convince the public in a meaningfu l way. It also we get the best value we can fo r money, et involves choices and it also involves, I believe, cetera, but, ultimately, I view these kind of tools the national government, as I have discussed in not as the be-all. No computer program should my remarks. produce our highways construction list fo r the year. What they do, what it should do is provide From my perspective, the No. 1 challenge us with some standardized measures so we can fo r me in my tenure in this department is to get assess status of road condition, need fo r us into a position with advancing a dedicated maintenance and repair, and provide us tools so highway gas tax in essence being dedicated to that we can make better choices or at least Highways and Transportation and a fe deral choices that we are able to justify, I think, with involvement in this so that we have the some standardized tools of measurement. But discipline of dedicated taxation. ultimately they are tools fo r decision making.

My view is that is what is at the end of the The reason I say that to the member, and I day needed fo r the long-term health of our would hope the member would concur with what 3110 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

- I am saying here, because we all know-1 had chambers of commerce, communities, in looking been Northern Affairs minister fo r several years at how we rationally approach our road system. and he is a northern MLA- that there are a number of communities, both in the North and in To give the member a little bit of, again, the south, where there is an importance to that flavour of where I am coming fr om, in many of road, if one looked at that community and you our agriculture areas, just as an example, the looked at the economic benefits, compared to growth of the potato industry has resulted in a many other places in the province that may need for storage capacity. How that storage never have a road, let alone be justified on capacity is developed can have a big diffe rence maintenance work. Ultimately, you have to on our road system. Developing it in a co­ make some decisions on the basis of judgment. operative fa shion in towns with RT AC ratings so that the finished product and the heaviest loads For example, just to put it in perspective, can be moved out is far more efficient fr om a take the community of Snow Lake. I was there road perspective and an industrial development when the mine announced-! do not know if the perspective than seeing sometimes storage built member was the member fo r that community at on every fa rm over a wider road network where that time or if it had been Mr. Storie. When the necessarily your trucks that are hauling are going last mine closed and everyone said that Snow to be heavier weights on roads that are not built Lake is dead, well, any kind of computer fo r them. Communities have to kind of engage analysis or objective analysis-when they tell you in that balance of structuring their own that is a community that has lost its raison d'etre, municipal road system with ours to maximize that is not a place you want to spend any more the usage of heavy weight roads as opposed to money. Yet the member and I know that the seeing them develop everywhere. best place to look fo r a new mine is within the site, from the top of the head frame of the old We have in my area agricultural develop­ one. ment that took place on farm sites that have grown and done tremendously well, and I cannot You cannot put that into an objective fa ult the people who have done this. They have analysis in a computer model, but the need to done a perfect job, a wonderful job, growing keep an investment in infrastructure, to keep the their businesses, but they have put a huge road exploration going and something going there in traffic onto municipal roads leading to their terms of the infrastructure, it is a gamble but a farm, and we have to get some balance in that. calculated one. There will always be that That might be in municipalities making requirement fo r that kind of judgment to be agricultural business land close to town on an made by ultimately the people who are elected RTAC system available at a very reasonable cost on behalf of their constituencies, so these are to people needing and wanting to develop those tools that are important ones. We are taking this businesses. Those are the kinds of discussions very seriously, but I just want to put it in that we have in planning our road system, perspective that it is important to still recognize ultimately where these tools that the auditors that there is a role fo r the judgment of those recommended are going to be needed. But, people who are elected by the voters to respond ultimately, those of us who have to be to their needs and to weigh and balance. We all answerable to the public-no computer program I have to do that in our own constituencies from have ever seen is yet answerable to the public­ time to time. Sometimes it is easy; sometimes it that is the role we have to play. These are tools is not. fo r us, and I will be more than pleased to keep the member appraised of this process as it * (1620) continues and to share with him my thinking and the kinds of tools that are being developed. I just know that the piece of this puzzle that I look forward to is the consultation that I intend Mr. Chairperson: Before we proceed any to be involved with personally as we do it across fu rther, I would just like to point out fo r all the province in the fa ll, in developing some members of the committee that, with these mikes longer range planning with municipalities, that we have in fr ont of us now, it is no longer June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3111

necessary to have them up right in fr ont of you. Mr. Praznik: The member has hit upon one of You can have your papers- the issues that I think is the greatest challenge fo r government. It is the old bureaucratic An Honourable Member: Oh, I am sorry. answer why we cannot do something because it is not in my department. Yet it is within the purview of government, of our government, and Mr. Chairperson: No, no, it was not to point it I say that collectively as Canadians. The money out any particular member. I am just saying you fo r the medivacs, quite simply, does not come do not have to. You can have your papers in out of the Department of Highways. So for us to fr ont of you and just speak quite normally. find within our budget money to build this road, These are the mikes fr om the Assembly, so they there are no savings to the Department of have lots of power. Our Hansard operator will Highways building it. Consequently, in any adj ust them accordingly. rating system that an auditor would impose upon us, some computer program in which you would The honourable member fo r Flin Flon, to throw in these numbers, that particular road proceed with his question. would show up as probably a very, very low priority. The member and I, our hair would be even grayer than it is today before anyone would Mr. Jennissen: Thank you, Mr. Chair, fo r even consider it. pointing that out because normally I get a lecture about not being close enough to the mike, so I Within government, obviously to the have been hugging this thing. I will not do that taxpayer there is the potential collective savings. again. I thank the minister fo r his answer. One of the things we have to struggle with, and again even within government, even though I Yes, the decisions made, I presume, are very was a Health minister, I cannot remember often subjective. Where I am coming fr om is particularly who would be funding how much there is a difference, though, between making and what percentage of the northern decisions for economic growth in the south and transportation, how those things work. They are decisions that would bring isolated pockets of First Nations people. Federal government had a people like Pukatawagan into the main stream of budget for that which they abruptly ended and the province. I do not know if that weighs left a couple of million on the provincial largely in the scale of whoever does the taxpayer last year; I recall that issue. So you weighing because Pukatawagan is not a even have two governments who are paying fo r powerhouse economically, although the people medivac service; ultimately, somebody has to are trying their damdest to develop fo restry and take the bull by the horns and pull all the players wild rice and other products. From another point together and be able to do a review. of view, though it is not coming fr om the same pot, we are spending a lot of money flying Mr . David Faurschou, Acting Chairperson, in people out, sick people even who could take the Chair regular road transportation. If you fo llow that and say there were 300 people in 1996 who were Perhaps there is a role fo r the member fo r medivacked out of Puk, the average cost, I am Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) to do. I would guessing, is between $5,000 and $10,000. Now certainly, in working with him, be prepared to that is an enormous amount of money. If you have our department, if he were to convene a put those dollars into even attempting to start a meeting of the players together, I would road system fr om wherever the Tolko-Repap certainly want my department to be part of it, road leaves off, it is not an impossible task. because maybe within that mix is the ability to Where we are at right now it is never, never, do something that over time saves the taxpayer never. Yet at some point the larger communities, some money, or at least breaks even, and I think, have to be connected. I understand a provides a better road access to the community. place like Granville Lake, very small, probably never will be, but a place with 2,000 people, I do The case in point when the member was not think we can ignore it fo rever. speaking, what jumped out at me, was the whole 3112 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

north central hydro line development. There temptation and I do not know if there is in the - was no reason for Hydro to build a hydro line in minister's mind or not, I hope not, but there there, because what they would have to charge could be a temptation saying since Ruttan mine for the power made it impossible to sell in Leaf Rapids will cease functioning in the year electricity. The fe deral government, who spent a 2003, since we have not fo und any new ore fortune paying for the diesel generation, was deposits in the immediate region, and since Lynn spending a fo rtune. We were supplying Northern Lake and the gold mine at Lynn Lake is nearing Affairs communities. What worked there was the end of its life, as well, that entire region is at everybody got together and said, hey, if we risk. It would be easy then to ra tionalize why applied what we are spending now to building a put more money into 391. I think that would be line over a period of time will pay fo r the line the wrong direction to go, because we have to and we will have a big savings. It took a huge develop tourist potential in that region. We have amount of effort to bring two governments to look for diversification. We have to look fo r together, fe deral and provincial, and make that other economic alternatives. I do believe in my happen. It sounds to me that is what needs to heart of hearts that in the future, that is going to happen in this particular case. I thank the be an extremely important region, more member fo r bringing it to our attention. I will important than it is right now. I would like to tell you, as the local MLA, if he is prepared to hear the minister's point of view on the initiate some discussions between the parties to continued need fo r money upgrading 391 and the kind of get the ball rolling as the local member, I regional Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake and would be very pleased to ensure our department surrounding regions including Granville Lake, is there at that and would join him in requesting Brochet, South Indian and so on. the Department of Health to be there as well. * (1630) Mr. Jennissen: I thank the minister for that. Only a day or two ago I talked with Hanson Mr. Praznik: As the former minister of Energy Dumas and Chief Shirley Castel from and Mines, who was very much a part of putting Pukatawagan and their concerns of course our mine strategy together, I took over that port­ having been allayed, they still would like to see fo lio from the previous member fo r Pembina, some action. By that we do not mean the Mr. Don Orchard. I am a great believer that impossible dream overnight. We mean at least there is still a lot to be discovered in that part of some recognition that a road could be built, how the country. We know that the flyover work that do we go about it, what would be step one. As was done with some of the new scanning devices the minister pointed out, we have to take a large to pick up magnetic anomalies in that part of the view of this. It may not be a direct saving to the country, there were literally thousands to be Department of Highways, but it would be a explored. Although there is a low going on now saving for taxpayers. I am thinking in particular in terms of the immediate future, I remember the in terms of Health. Regular road connections, same thing at Snow Lake. Oh, it was the end of trucks coming in there with supplies and food Snow Lake when that mine closed, and yet a few more regularly, cheaper food, better health, they years later, I was privileged to be there fo r the are facing all kinds of problems, some of the opening of Photo Lake. I was privileged to be smaller communities and reserves. I think a lot there for the opening of the New Britannia. I of that could be alleviated if there was a direct must admit I lost track of Photo Lake, whether it weather road access. There could be all kinds of is still open or not or completed. It was a small economic spin-offs and benefits that are not orebody, I know, but it just tells you that there easily visible and certainly would not show up in are still a lot of things to be done in that country, any one department. That is why I think we and that road is an important part of that have to look at the larger picture. infrastructure. I would not have said that, but again, you know, the member has flagged for me While we are on that, I would also like to the reason why all of this effort to kind of have a move that same kind of thinking to that whole rational approach. We have come, in this com­ region of Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake and points puter age, to believing we can take everything further North. I think there could be a and put it in with a set of criteria and it will June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3113 pump out a list and there should be no human governed by computers because ultimately we discretion. In that case, we do not have a have to be responsible to our electors and be able Parliament, a Legislature or democracy at the to defend with our rationale. Sometimes we will end of the day. be wrong and we will pay the price for that, or we will have the understanding of the public fo r The decision to continue to maintain that that, but ultimately it is the decisions of elected road in the face of no immediate ore discoveries members, like the member fo r Flin Flon (Mr. is a gamble, but you have to take that gamble, I Jennissen) and I having this discussion today in believe as a politician, because we have a this public fo rum, that still ultimately have to broader experience than that computer. accept responsibility fo r the decisions that are Ultimately at the end of the day, yes, we may be made around roadwork in our province. criticized because maybe someday no orebody will fo und in that area and some auditor will say Mr. Jennissen: I could add that with regard to this is a bad waste of money, you should have Lynn Lake, apparently the fe deral government is known. But if a large gold deposit or another putting some money in, I guess, possibly copper deposit, whatever, is fo und in that area allowing the town to take over fully the airport and you have 2,000 or 3,000 people working, because it is extremely difficult for a small town someone will say, boy, you had good judgment. like that to carry a large airport.

By the way, one of the things that makes As the minister was saying, we have to look that area attractive for exploration is that you at where there is potential, and I think there is have road access. One of the reasons why a much more mining potentially in that region. I mine is more economical putting in there is am happy to hear him say it and put on the because you have rail and road access. So those record that we are not going to desert 391. In are the areas that become very important in fact, we should be putting more money into it continuing to find a new well. So if the member because it does have enormous tourist attraction is looking fo r a commitment from this minister, I potential. We have talked about a round road all give it to him here today that failure to find an the way through to Fox Lake and Pukatawagan. orebody in the immediate fu ture is not That is not likely to happen in the near future, something that necessarily would, as long as I but again, who knows 20 years from now that am minister, be a reason to continue to do no might be something fe asible. work on that road. If five, six, seven, eight, 10 years passed and nothing was fo und and the I would like to point out that a place like traffic volumes were down, it is a diffe rent story. Lynn Lake is also a place where NASA does a lot of high-altitude testing with balloons, so Obviously, I think the member knows and I there is a influx of American money and so on. share with him the belief that there is another There are all kinds of little things happening that mine to be fo und in that area and keeping the are important. Of course, we cannot really infrastructure going to encourage the exploration replace mining, and we are trying very hard to and ultimately make fe asible the development of make tourism a kind of backup economic new mining opportunities in that area. As well, system, but it is going to be a long, long time we have seen more development of timber before that would come anywhere near the opportunities as well, the growth in our woods potential that mines have. industry, fibre industry growing. So, yes, you have to keep that open if you want people to pursue it, and those are very important. I am happy to hear the minister say that that region is still going to have the support of this I mean it will not be perfect. It will not be government, because very often when we make as much as certainly we would both like to be political decisions, sometimes they are made in a spending on that road, but certainly it will not be crass way, and I am pointing to the fact that we abandoned just because of the current circum­ get angry when fe derally the votes are cast, the stances. You know it makes the point, it reminds decision is made, and actually by the time we get us always of why we are elected and not to the Manitoba border, that the East ignores us, 3114 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

that the emphasis seems to be on Ontario and unwise or silly, but their publics, or their voting - Quebec. publics, demanded a whole bunch of other things of which roads were not politically sexy, and we We in the North very often fe el that govern­ are paying that price fo r it now. ment in the south, in particular the Highways department, you know, not their fault but There is no doubt that I would love to have through ministerial direction or through govern­ fo ur northern MLAs as part of the Progressive ment impetus, are putting southern roads at a Conservative government caucus. I would higher niveau, a higher level, than the North. welcome them wholeheartedly. We would be Again, it is a voting thing. At least, that is how delighted to, and I make this offe r to the member we perceive it in the North. Very often we hear for Flin Flon. If he would like to cross the floor, sarcastic comments, people saying, well, they I would be there to help him seek the tell us we vote the wrong way; that is why they Conservative nomination in Flin Flon because I will not put the necessary fu nding into our roads. like the member fo r Flin Flon. He would be a welcome addition to our caucus, and we would I hope that is not the case. We fe el that is be delighted to have him. If he persists in sometimes the case. I hope the minister will, as standing fo r the New Democrats and his voters he says, govern or help to govern or help to decide to return a Conservative, well, I would administrate in his department for all wish him well in a new career and welcome the Manitobans. I think the North, being an area of new member fo r Flin Flon into the fo ld. great potential, we would certainly like to see the funding levels in Highways gradually increase to * (1640) where they were in the '80s. The reality of past elections, we have not Mr. Praznik: Just one technical point, the been successful, my party, in winning a seat. member talked about in the '80s. The budget of Perhaps in the next one we will, but having said the Department of Highways, I think, capital that, the reality-and I remember being at a construction got as low as $80-some million meeting in Thompson with the fo rmer Minister during the Pawley administration, one of the of Highways when I was the Northern Affairs lowest in Canada and, again, a government minister, and we discussed roads and shares of whose priorities were not necessarily in funding, et cetera, and I think a commitment that infrastructure. my predecessor had made was to try to maintain a percentage of our expenditure being the I am not saying here we have been able to equivalent of about 11 percent which was the significantly increase that. We did increase it percentage of road miles that the North had. when we came to power, and we tried to maintain it through a very bad period in a We appreciate that conditions may be recession, and now we are looking at ways to harsher in some ways and other things, but there enhance that in the fuel tax. But I do not think is always reasons for exception. One can say there has been in Canada in 30-some years-and, that some parts of the province have more you know, we could go through numbers about economic activity than others, et cetera. There is expenditure levels and the like and be able to also other air networks and things. We talk about who spent what where, but the reality, appreciate, you know, only one road, but that I think, over the last 25, 30 years in Canada is commitment was there. That was an . that virtually every government has not improvement from 6 or 7 percent to 11, and I maintained the levels of expenditure to keep up think we have managed to maintain that. their roads and expand their road networks. There are balances between maintenance Mr. Chairperson in the Chair and capital, and sometimes in a particular year it may be a little up or down, but I know that the So we are arguing about whether one was combined expenditure on construction and worse than the other and all basically not putting maintenance in the Northern Region 5, in '96-97 - enough in, not because I think governments were was 12.3 percent; '97-98, 11.6; in '98-99, 12.6; June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3115 and in '99-2000, it would be about 12.4 percent. At the end of the day, I know we have had So we have been running a little bit above that some exchanges in Question Period that I have particular commitment. I guess the percentage fo und very pleasant, the member fo r Flin Flon of roads north of 53, in that region, is about 11.4 being very supportive of developing a national percent of our network. highway scheme. I think at the end of the day we need that to be able to maintain our road Now, I do not want to make it sound like we infrastructure north, south, east, west, centre of have been hugely generous by about a percent Manitoba instead of continuing to fight over a more. We do appreciate that there are probably less than adequate pool of dollars to do the job. more maintenance costs, snow removal, and other things, so that kind of balances, but the Mr. Jennissen: I fully fo llow and understand fo rmer minister had indicated that that would be the argument that the minister is making about roughly what it would be, and so be it. That is the dedicated fuel tax, but I do not know what what we are doing. level of reality that is right now. He has probably talked to Collenette. I am not sure if he What it underlines to me, because I am sure has. I do know that the fe deral minister has when the member fo r Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) talked about putting $3.5 billion, to be matched I goes back to his constituency he will find very guess by the provinces, into a system. It has few people who will say all the work is nothing to do with the fuel tax. I do not know adequate. I find very few in my own whether that is enough, because we are talking constituency or the member fo r La Verendrye about, what, a $17-bill ion deficit nationwide. So (Mr. Sveinson) or the member fo r Portage Ia I guess $3.5 billion matched by provinces would Prairie (Mr. Faurschou). They come to see me be $7 billion, would be quite an enormous regularly with long lists of roads, as the member chunk. for Flin Flon does in Estimates. It really under­ lines the reality that we as a province, just like I do not know if that is just posturing or if every other province in this Dominion of that is reality. Could the minister give me a Canada, are not spending what we should be on fe eling of that? maintaining our road system. Mr. Praznik: I think the member has hit upon Quite frankly, the answer, as I have said the real crux of this issue. The national highways before, is to see dedicated fuel taxes, to have the program has been floated by Minister Collenette. fe deral government play a role with the $147 I think he means well. It sounds to all of us in million that they are collecting in our province provincial governments as a one-time commit­ on the roadways and putting none back, over a ment to flow some money into the highway period of time phasing in that tax from part of a system. Well, we will take the money, first of national program to maintain and do what we all. We will be pleased to take the money and need. One nice thing about that dedicated fuel we will spend it, but does it solve the problem? tax, particularly if dollars are expended on the Not at all, because our need is ongoing and will percentage of roads, fo r the North that does not continue to be ongoing well into the future. have 11 percent of our population, they drive a lot because you have a lot of roads to drive, a lot of miles to cover. You obviously would pay that We are still left with a national government percentage of the tax. You would see it come collecting this year $147 million of fuel taxes in back in terms of percentage of roadwork, and it our province and, other than this one-shot is a good way. Those who drive little because program, if they do it, putting none back. That is they do not have many roads to drive in urban not adequate anywhere in this land. So we as areas pay less in fuel tax than those who drive Canadians I think have to have that debate. Why more. So there is a way of ensuring that what I am an advocate of dedicated fuel taxes fo r they are spending now, what they are spending roads is the discipline that comes with that, now anyway and seeing it go to Ottawa with because then we know those dollars are there for little coming back, in this case none coming taxes, that you adj ust your fu el tax based on back, would do it. what you need to maintain the road system. 3116 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

For the motoring public there is a very clear a greater logical reason to support dedicating - linkage between knowing that the tax you are fuel taxes to road construction because it is truly putting in that pump is going to maintain and their lifeline. I appreciate the support the build the roads you are driving on or your goods member has given me in the House. We have are coming on into your community as opposed conveyed that to Minister Collenette, but to what we have now, the fe deral share going everywhere I go now, I am using every speech I into an enormous pot of dollars in Ottawa and give as an opportunity to raise this issue. I think coming out in some other program and the roads the fe deral governmenthas to hear it. Canadians being inadequate. have to be engaged in this kind of debate over their infrastructure fu nding. Is it going to be People say we pay a lot of fu el tax. That is easy? Not on your life is it going to be easy. why I am always concerned when the fe deral This is a tough, hard-slugging match. But, you officialsfloated an idea in Ottawa recently about know. I have seen it happen before where an adding a fe w pennies a litre to pay fo r a national idea can catch fire and political winds being highways program. We said, you help us like what they are, very shifty winds, can blow that thieves, you are already taking-how much a litre fire into a raging storm that no fe deral fe deral tax?-1 0 cents a litre in fe deral tax and government can avoid. That is what my job and you are putting none back in Manitoba or west view is and I ask the member to join with me, as ofthe Ottawa River. You are putting none back. I am sure he will, and his colleagues and my You are suggesting we use toll roads; we are colleagues, because I see an opportunity to do suggesting you add some more pennies to the this right. litre. It is just offensive, offensive. My view is the national government is So, Mr. Chair, everywhere we travel now as looking fo r a quick fix to say we have done it. a department, and we are talking about this We put some money in transportation. Then Mr. issue, we advocate the dedicated tax. We Iftody, the M.P. fo r Provencher, and some of the certainly advocate it with our colleagues across other members from Manitoba can travel around the land, and we have told Mr. Collenette, I the countryside and say the fe deral government think, collectively that that is great to have solved all your problems again. Just like we did another program but we have to also look at our in health with a one-time payment; just like in long-term sustainability of it. education with a one-time education budget. The member for Flin Flon, I think, we both There was a time in government not so long recognize that they have not. They are one-time ago where ministers of Finance would have payments. absolutely balked at the idea of a dedicated fuel tax fo r highways. I am very pleased to say that * (1650) within our own government, I think we have realized that is what we are doing now in I am really concerned. I must admit I am practical fact. Maybe we should do that. Maybe concerned that if the fe ds do it, how they are we need to have a trust or whatever to do the going to finance it. There are a lot of questions dedicated tax thing, but it has to be that the we have abouthow they finance it. I would hate public is ready for it. The dollars are there. We to see them use somebody else's money like the know that that means a shuffling of other money EI fu nd. I would hate to see them avoid the real within the fe deral systems, some fo ur or five issue that is being part of national transportation billion and they will probably cost us somewhere infrastructure in a sustainable long-term manner. else, but it is the discipline of knowing that your There is a lot at stake here, but I have never infrastructure issues are not going to be judged seen the time so ripe in II years of public office against the immediate issue of the day, whatever as now fo r us to make our case, engage it is. Canadians in the debate and have some opportunity fo r success. As northerners who are dependent on single, often gravel roads into their communities, there Mr. Jennissen: That is a very good argument. - is no other group in this country who would have certainly do not disagree with any of that. When June 2I, I999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3II7 the minister says dedicating the fe deral portion special projects we have to do that enhance our of the fuel tax, he is talking all of that. He is transportation network. talking all of the I 0 cents. He is not talking the 2 cents that lobby groups like CAA have My department also told me, and we got advocated sporadically or year to year and that talking about this early on in my first weeks of other lobby groups have as well. being minister, is that if we had all that money today, the construction industry in Manitobaand He is saying: this is the money you collect, most of the country would not be able to gear up fe deral government, and this is what you should to do it all at one time. So it would take a be returning into the road system. number of years of phase-in to be able to bring that into operation. I think the national government should be sitting down with the That is a logical argument. I just have one provinces, discussing the concept, engaging question I would like to tie in. I would like to Canadians in the debate. I think Canadians hear the minister's answer because I do not know would find it very agreeable to have a dedicated how to answer it myself really. How do you get tax. I think the national government has to still back to Mr. Collenette and Mr. Martin when have a role. I would not want to see them walk they say it takes us X number of cents to service totally away from it because we know, heaven our debt out of the Canadian tax dollar and it fo rbid it would not happen in this province, but only costs you I 0 or II cents? In other words, a in others it may where those dollars do not lot less. Their argument would be that we always end up in developing a national road cannot affo rd this, which, I am sure, will be their system. I think there is a role fo r them with that argument. How do we get around that? tax room or those dollars to be at the table saying a national priority is fo ur-Jane Trans­ Mr. Praznik: There are a couple of things. Canada Highway from sea to sea, and your First of all, yes, in Manitoba it would be $I47 share, province, has to be a No. I priority. million of new revenue. Granted, we would lose somewhere else, I am sure, but $147 million. I The Yellowhead route, fo ur-Ianing that in believe that my department, first of all, tells me very important stretches; again, building those that we should be spending in the neighbourhood east-west road links; building what I call the of about $200 million a year. I look to Mr. southern Canada border links, which are critical Tinkler. He would, I think, fe el he had died and to our trade; building the southern Canada­ gone to heaven if we gave him $20 million on northern links that allow us to be able access our capital program, probably a little bit more on economic opportunity and people in our remote the maintenance program, et cetera. Obviously, parts of the country that are still very much to be there would be several tens of millions that I developed and to grow. There is where national think should be made available to municipalities government has a role in setting those particular because they certainly-and not fo r them to do priorities, and that is a role that I would like to residential streets. Residential streets, just like see them in. municipal roads that are servicing remote communities, have to be borne by that local Now, when it comes to financing debt, I am government. But certainly within municipalities, not an expert on the national treasury, but I do their RTAC system. Take the case of Winnipeg. know, having gone through many, many budget Winnipeg looks after its major trucking routes exercises, that it comes down to often matters of through the city, yet they are of a provincial, priority and where dollars are being spent. The even national significance, servtcmg the national government has to work within its transportation industry. So there is role for the budget and its limitations. Its revenue growth municipalities to have access to some of that has certainly been there over the last number of revenue from fuel taxes. Certainly a piece of years. I guess when I talk about Canadians that I would like to see available fo r things like engaging in a national debate, if we do not have development of public transportation in urban that debate at national level soon, not just about areas, development of intermodal sites, some of infrastructure, about what we can afford to spend the other things in northern development, the and when on what collectively within the public, 3118 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

I see us now often robbing Peter to pay Paul. decisions. I am talking now on a national level. - We know that health care demands will continue I am not suggesting provincially. to grow, and I know that better than anyone, having been a minister of Health for two years. The dedicated fu el tax, and using that fo r We know that an aging population and new road construction, makes a lot of sense. There technology will continue to draw an increasing are other ways of doing this, and I am not share of the public dollars. But health care has advocating we do this, but I am fam iliar with to surely know what it can expect. We have to Holland because I was raised there. When I visit be able to assess what percentage of our my cousins, they are always complaining when revenues we can spend over a period of time, they buy a car about how much they have to pay where we are putting into infrastructure. fo r I think they call it WTB or BTW. I am not sure what the initials stand fo r, but something to These are difficult choices sometimes. We the effect that it is a road tax built into the are left as politicians to make them on behalf of purchase of actual the vehicle, so that I guess our constituents absolutely, but we deal with an instead of having a vehicle at what would be a electorate whose major source of information is normal cost price here with a little bit of profit the television news, the newspapers they read, built in, the state also levies taxes on that vehicle and these kinds of balances we as politicians and uses those taxes fo r roads, road upkeep. I do have to make every day, whether we be in not think that would be very popular in this government or opposition, in developing our country, but I am sure there are other innovative policies, developing our legislation or our ways of extracting taxes. I am not necessarily positions fo r general election often to get the advocating them, but it might be worth looking public truly engaged in every aspect is very, very at some different methods being used by difficult. diffe rent countries.

So we need to have the media involved, as Going back to Mr. Collenette's supposed we need to have the national debate about where $3.5 billion over five years, I guess if he gave it we are putting dollars and what the needs are. to us all at once we could not match it fo r one There has never been enough money fo r thing, and probably the heavy industry could not everything, but just like a household, you have do it anyway, but even over five years, I to prioritize, and what I have come to realize is presume our share would come to what? About that the infrastructure needs that are so important $28 million a year? Would that be a fa ir to our competitiveness on a national basis, not estimate that we would have to match? just a provincial one, have for 30 years been getting an almost short end of the stick for other Mr. Praznik: Depending, of course, on how things. I do not know if Canadians will accept money is divvied by percentage of population or my version of how we should be balancing, but percentage of road, but we estimate our share certainly it is time fo r that debate. would be about 4.5 percent of the national payout. So depending on how they phased it, Mr. Jennissen: That is very interesting. A that is what we would expect to get on an annual national debate on those infrastructures issues basis. But you know, again, you can just see would certainly be most welcome. Whether that where probably short spending $70 or $80 will take place, I do not know, because it appears million a year on an ongoing basis, this national to me there is a clash, again, of long-range needs program is not going to come anywhere near to fo r building infrastructure and short-range needs meeting that. of politicians and political systems. In other words, what is more convenient to do within the * (1700) next couple of years is often done rather than we are going to pay a lot more 10 years down the Mr. Jennissen: Well, just fo r the sake of line unless we do this. What I am saying is, you argument, if, let us say, the $3.5 billion were a know, we are kind of trapped where we have to go, divided five years, that is $700 million, and make long-range decisions, but fo r short-term let us say we have about 4 percent of that, that convenience we do not often make those would be about $28 million or so, a little bit less June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3119 perhaps, a little bit more, would we come up But, again, our $28 million would then with that extra matching $28 million? In other likely come out of our regular $100 million, words, we would jump fr om $110 million to $110 million a year. Now, on those roads that approximately $160 million for a special capital would be of a national priority, I am looking to project? Mr. Tinkler, I do not think today they would command $28-million worth of projects, so, obviously, that means we would be having to Mr. Praznik: Unless we have a significant take out of other things we would do. surplus that allows the Treasury Board to give me, fo r this department, an extra $28 million a Again, this is the struggle with this. It is year, to match it with new money would be great for them to say we want to spend this impossible. In the discussions we are having money; you are going to have to match us on with the fe deral government, their leverage, this. But we have all the other responsibility off when they look at matching, is on specific those national highways that we have to main­ proj ects out of our existing budgets. So, again, tain, too. But that is the way national govern­ they are looking at saying what builds the m nts in Canada tend to operate, and particularly national highway network and, again, their � this one, that they do everything unilaterally. correct role saying what projects do we need to We saw it again today with Mr. Vanclief. Mr. do to build a national highway network. So, it is V anclief, the fe deral Minister of Agriculture, he Trans-Canada, Yellowhead obviously, could have easily got on the phone to his co­ connectors to the border. Those are the obvious ministers from Manitoba and Saskatchewan and national highway projects. had a nice discussion with them about what he wants to do. Now, the concern that I would have as a You know, not all of us in public life play northern MLA is if we were having to match 28 politics all the time. Some of us, and I believe million bucks in a year and do all those projects the member fo r Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) is one, on those great roads, where we are getting the actually like to do the job, and, you know, when $28 million from is out of the rest of the some ne is designing a program like that, program. That is another concern with this. � sometimes a phone call to a compatriot to run This is why I appreciate the need to build that the idea by them, and you say, hey, you know, national highway system, but, you know, if we this would work, then you can make the are having to match it on those programs, again, adjustments and get a better program for I would hate to see that done at the detriment of everybody and get everyone onside. Not Mr. the rest of the road network that we have to V anclief and not the Government of Canada that maintain. we have today. The desire to work co­ operatively with provinces is certainly not a real Mr. Jennissen: So if I understand the minister one, I believe, on their part. correctly, he is saying that that $20-some million would not be new money then. We would not be This is another example in the kind of talking about matching it with new money. di�cussions and planning that we are having on this program. We are not going to leave a penny on the table, but you fe el at the end of the day Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, that would depend on really hamstrung because what we have been the financial circumstance of the-I do not think asking fo r is a fe deral investment in building a it would be a specific requirement that we would national highway system. I have no qualms that have to add to our base an extra $28 million to the fe deral government is going to use that match that. I think the question is the money . mone and say, Manitoba, you can only spend it becomes available as long as we are matching it � on this part of your road network which is on a project-by-project basis, so we would national in significance. within our national criteria, say these are th� roads that meet that criteria; we are putting up But when they say then that we have to half; they would be putting up half, and we come up with dollars to put in it, when they are would be doing that project. already taxing that road network and only 3120 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 putting back a small bit, and then they are Mr. Praznik: That is a very good question but a wanting us to have to have conditions of having very difficult one to answer. I get the sense on a to match out of our program or put in new personal basis that he is sincere. I like Mr. money that is almost impossible, it just is Collenette as a minister. I fo und him reasonable maddening because that may mean that we have to deal with in my dealings to date, but he is part to go into other parts of the province and not do of a cabinet and there is a Minister of Finance projects that are important to what I would call and there are other agendas. I do get the sense the provincial road network and highway that it is important fo r Mr. Collenette and some network. of his colleagues, particularly from the Toronto area, to ensure that there is enough breath in this So this is not going to be easy. We are still program to deal with some urban transportation negotiating with them, and I think the member issues within metropolitan Toronto. I do not senses my frustration. My preference would be have any objection to that if that is where that what they would say is: here is what we Ontario's priorities are as opposed to highway want on a national road system. Here in networks. But I would think that if we are going Manitoba is your 4-point-some percent, $28 to be expected to be using our dollars, or these million or $30 million a year for so many years, dollars, and matching them for what in essence or whatever it works out to be. We agree on is a national highway system, an east-west those projects; the money goes into those corridor, that the same kind of criteria will have projects. If we want to enhance them, do others, to apply to those dollars being spent in Ontario we will, but we should not be robbing our or Quebec where there are much larger urban regular provincial road network to pay fo r those. centres, or British Columbia, that to say, well, this is fo r a national transportation network but urban transit in Toronto is a national issue. But we may, to get that money, and, again, Well, it really is not. It is a big local issue. that is something, a decision of the national governmentas they put their dollars on the table. I mean there are trucking routes in and We will have to deal with it when that comes. It around Toronto that would be of a national is certainly very frustrating. significance in moving goods and services on a national basis, or goods on a national basis. So Mr. Jennissen: I certainly buy the minister's that is another issue we have to deal with. argument about increased reliable and sustain­ able fu nding for the highway system across this Now, in the machinations of fe deral country and the serious role that the fe ds have to policymaking, who knows how this will work play in this, but at the same time there is the $3.5 out, and again it is not our intention to leave any billion at least being talked about. I would like money on the table, but it is part of what is very, to get a feeling of how serious Collenette very frustrating about this process, very actually is, or is it just politicking and this will frustrating indeed. The member has referenced come to nothing. In other words, is it just the fact that the national government is still very another political ploy? The fe deral government popular. Perhaps he and I should be working is still a very popular government, and it with the United Alternative to give the country mystifies me too why they get away with some another option. You know, I say very clearly it of these things, throwing money at it one time miffs me and I think perhaps the national media, and then that is all they have to do, because this with some exception, have really gone to sleep. is an ongoing concern. Itought to be an ongoing There are very serious issues facing Canada concern. Highways keep existing and they keep today. For the last 10 years, we have seen most needing funding. They have to pull their fair of the political action, in my opm10n, weight, and they are not doing it. Maybe particularly after the free trade debate. I would grandstanding just once is not going to do it say the free trade debate was the last true either. But I do not know if they are grand­ national issue in Canada that had huge public standing or if they are actually serious about this attention and a good debate and a conclusion. $3.5 billion. Does the minister have a sense of Since then the fight against deficit spending has how serious Mr. Collenette is? been led by the provinces. The balancing of June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3121 budgets has taken place at the provincial level. manner that gets the attention of the media, The rationalizat ion of services and rethink of Canadians as a nation continue to drift. But at government delivery mechanisms has taken the provincial level much of the work is being place at the provincial level. The struggle to done. deal with issues of competitiveness has taken place at the provincial level. That is not the way I think to have a nation. But the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen}­ *(1 710) where Mr. Collenette will be? I am not sure. Another concern I have is how they intend to I say to the member fo r Flin Flon, he and I fund this. I would like to see them have the have been very fo rtunate. We have been at the plan. Then they can be criticized fo r whatever or level of government where I think the greatest applauded fo r whatever funding mechanism they action, fo resight and planning in this decade has use, but that is another question. Where will taken place. In provincial Legislatures and their money come fr om? I would hate to see it provincial parliament buildings right across come from a source like Employment Insurance, Canada, of all political stripes, we have been because ultimately I do not believe that is their struggling with the real issues that have to be money. It belongs to employers and employees addressed fo r Canadians as we enter the next who have paid into it like any other insurance century. Regrettably, the national leadership in scheme. these issues has not been there. In fact, if anything, often national government has been So there are lots of questions here. My detrimental to working out arrangements. For guess is there will be some kind of program. If example, in harmonization, various regulatory we can create enough issue that they have to do schemes, no role at all, where there should be something, they will do something, but we have one in co-ordinating. to make sure that it is not just a one-off opportunity to say, here, we have thrown some So today, you know, again, we have a money at the problem. Let us wipe our hands national government. Perhaps the reason they and go away back to the bunker, go in fo r a are popular is they stay away from dealing with while, and come out in another six months the issues we really have to face. Their answer willing to solve another problem out there on a seems to be, well, education is an issue; we will temporary, one-shot basis. It is not the way to have an education budget this year and throw a run a country, and I think Canada will pay the little money at it. Health is an issue; we will price fo r it in the not too distant future. have a health budget. We will say we did some­ thing. Highways are an issue; we will have a I can count on one thing though. I do not highways budget. At the end of the day, that think the member for Flin Flon nor the member does not address the real issues that we face as fo r Lac du Bonnet nor the member fo r La Canadians. Regrettably, again, I think a good Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) nor the member fo r portion of the national media has gone to sleep. Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou) who are here They cover the one-off stories of the day in the today cast ballots in support of that national House of Commons. This person said this. This government. person asked a silly question. This was the answer. But I have seen very little critical Mr. Jennissen: Yes, the minister is on to some analysis at the national level of the fundamental safe bets there. There is no doubt about that. issues that we have to address as Canadians to become competitive or remain competitive and We realize how fundamental road systems be able to live within our means and be are, how fundamental transportation links are. I prosperous into the next century. I have seen agree with the minister; we ought to lament lack very little debate at the national level, or of leadership on the federal level. That makes planning in that area. This is just one more me wonder, and perhaps the minister can answer example of it. Regrettably, without the media this question: if infrastructure is not sexy, does continuing to raise these kinds of issues, or an not sell well to the general public, how come opposition who are raising these issues in a other countries are much more successful, and 3122 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 particularly the United States? I know they have We are in the process of building a school a diffe rent political structure and so on, but they we just approved in part of my constituency. I do seem to get the funding. Surely infrastructure remember when that school committee got there must be equally unsexy, and yet they are together some years ago, one of the individuals willing to invest the capital to build their roads. at it said, you know, this school is great because How can they get the necessary dollars and we it is free. The province pays fo r it. Well, it is cannot? not free. It is paid for by taxes actually by the education support levy on property, but the Mr. Praznik: Again, another excellent question, disconnect was there. If I have to pay fo r it on and one I have had some opportunity to explore my property taxes and see I am paying fo r this, with Canada-U.S. legislators project, and to well, that is one thing, but if the province is reflect upon in this new portfolio. paying fo r it, it is fr ee. Hospitals are free.

I saw that as Health minister which was Perhaps a little bit broader perspective, really amazing-and I do not deny for one have come to an observation after being in this moment anybody the services they require, do place for 11 years, involved actively in politics not get me wrong-but I remember looking at for 13, that since about the 1970s we have really whether it be drug treatments or surgery or care disconnected our electorate from their money. where the costs would be tens of thousands, What I mean by that is if you go back to some sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars, and years ago, the member may recall-I do not know the person you were dealing with would be where he spent his youth, but in the '50s and '60s fundamentally mad over some issue, knowing in Manitoba, and I was pretty young at the time that they had just had expended on them what too, but I can still remember vaguely some of may be a hundred Manitoba fam ilies or 50 them in the mid-'60s, the old money referendum. families had to work and pay taxes fo r, fo r a At the municipal level if you were building a whole year. I do not blame them fo r that - major work, you required it. Your council only individually, but it was the disconnect. It is free had approval to spend a certain amount of because I do not pay for it. I do not see how money on capital works. You were required to much it is costing; I expect the service. have a ratepayers' referendum on whether you wanted to do that project or not, whether people That is a problem I think we have as were prepared to pay the tax fo r that. Now I am politicians in dealing with an electorate that has not advocating we go back to that in its fo rm, but had that disconnect. The reason is it all goes there was a real connect between the ratepayer into a pool. We make the decisions, they hear paying the tax and the service for which it was about it in the media, and an electorate that is being collected. tired of paying taxes believes it is overtaxed-! think rightly so-and does not see really the In the '70s in Canada, we got into a very connection. Certainly, when you are paying a large movement to do away with all of those half a billion dollars a year in debt and interest again-direct forms of taxation, levies with payments-we are provincially-and 30 percent of referendum attached to them, et cetera, and we the national revenue going to pay interest said we would collect the money in a common payments on 30 years of borrowing, I mean, you pot, and the Legislature through cabinet would just say, I pay more I get less service, this spend it for the common good and make all the system is corrupt. What is corrupt about it is 30 decisions. I can remember coming in this place years we took away the connection between the and having discussions with then ministers of taxpayer and the service, and we borrowed a Finance who said we do not want to give up our bunch of money, and we are asking another flexibilityto make decisions. The result has been generation to pay it back. that our ratepayers pay into a common pot and sort of say you make the decision, but I have no So, having said that, why is the United direct say where my taxes go. That disconnect States more successful in it? Because they still has seen itself come up in a number of ways I have kept-and I am not a great advocate for the think that are not positive. American system; I am a British parliamentarian June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3123 type-but I think they have kept in their system particularly in highways-everywhere I go, many more connects between the ratepayer, the everywhere I have talked about this, I am taxpayer, and the service that is being bought. surprised, truly, at the level of support I get for The national Jaw in the United States indicates dedicating fuel taxes to roads. I think it is you cannot raise a tax on fu el unless the money because people then appreciate and want to is going to the transportation system, to the road know that every time they put that nozzle in their system. Many states will have votes in their gas tank and they press that lever and those dials election years on whether to raise a penny or two spin and they open their wallet or take out their in a number of years, et cetera, on the litre or a credit card and they are putting in $20, $30, that gallon of gasoline to pay for specific projects. the taxes they are paying are going back into So people know that I am paying that tax and I their road. It gives them a direct connection voted fo r it and I agree because it is a priority, I between their money and the service they are hate that road, and the connect is there between getting. the two. Today they do not have that. Ten cents of The struggle for us I think as we begin a every litre goes to Ottawa and to get it back, if new century is how we put back into public we even get it back or even part of it back decision making that connect between the voters because we are not east of the Ottawa River, we and their money and where we spend it on. In end up getting-the connect is not there. I other jurisdictions, particularly the United States, apologize fo r the long answer, but the member is you can just see that connect. I remember fr iends onto one of my favourite topics. in Colorado who-there, every two years they have their election-went and voted to put a tax Mr. Jennissen: I am discovering that, Mr. on I do not know what, I cannot remember what Minister. It is an important topic, but I am just it was. That money was going to develop a trail wondering-well, first of all, get back to the and park system. It was in their county, so I disconnect. I can certainly empathize with that. guess it was on the property. But people debated I hear it a lot from some of my people as well, it. Do we need it? Is it important? At the end of some of the voters. I can certainly empathize the day, they made a choice, and when that is with the miner in Leaf Rapids who pays lots of paid fo r, the tax will come off. So there are a lot income tax and fu el tax and property tax and of things to be said about reconnecting voters drives south on 391 and loses probably his fuel and their money and the services they are tank or his windshield will go. So he is saying, particularly purchasing. look, I am paying a lot of tax, but what am I getting out it? So I can see that sometimes on a It does not work fo r everything. I certainly very individual level. would not advocate that in Health, but I will tell you one thing that I, having spent two years in I was going to ask the minister a more health care-where that reconnect is missing. It general question, if I can get more general. They would be very interesting to see if each citizen in have been very general. Why does the minister Manitoba annually got a statement that said this fe el optimistic that with dedicated fuel taxes that is your access to the health care system and your the fe deral government, which has opted out so fam ily over the last year, and this is what it cost. much in transportation whether it be ports or I think what it would do is voters would airports and so on, would show the slightest appreciate that that service that they now get fo r inclination to go this direction, and furthermore, free in their mind has a cost and that they are what would prevent them from simply saying, paying fo r it and should demand value fo r okay, we will go along, we will just add more money and service for what is being paid, and money, we will add another five cents to the litre that always is not the case. or whatever? They are capable of doing that as well. I do not know why there would be a sense * (1720) of optimism that they would go this route.

So I say to the member fo r Flin Flon, the Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, first of all, I think it is more we can do at the end of the day, that Canadians need to have the debate, and I am 3124 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 a great advocate fo r the debate. If they do not election, I remember, that really counted in want to go this route, let them make an argument determining the future of the country, whatever why they should not. The member is asking me side you were on. some very good questions. I will tell you why-1 think Canadians have, as we talked about, a I see coming in the not too distant future a national government who today is not addressing similar kind of an election in Canada where the these issues. They put them off, put them off, role of a national government in addressing these throw some dollars, say: we are going to do this, issues, because they cannot be put off too much one-time budget, we sort of fix the problem, are longer, will happen. One side in that political we not nice guys. debate, or one part of it, will take these bold, innovative views, I think, to meet our infra­ I think we are coming to a day in the not too structure needs and dedicate a tax, and the distant fu ture, quite frankly, when the bubble current administration likely will not, and will burst. I think Canadians will wake up one Canadians perhaps will have the great privilege day in the morning, have their coffe e and realize of being able to decide their fu ture in that polling they have to be addressing these issues, and what station in which this is one of the issues. are they hearing about it? The media and the Canadian public will expect these issues to be I think I have a role to play as a provincial addressed, and I think the current government of minister today in getting it into that agenda. the day will be inadequate, have done inadequate Now maybe I will be wrong. Maybe the current preparation and will not be able to meet that. minister in government will see this fire storm, realize it is the right thing to do and do it without Quite frankly, I am hoping, I can see that that kind of a debate. I really hope that happens. this issue has a potential to become part of a But I think the time is ripe to make it part of the national debate and to catch fire because national agenda, an agenda that I think will be in Canadians see the declining-they see a road a great sense of change over the next few years. system that is getting tired. They drive it every If we are lucky as Canadians, we will see this day with all its potholes. Believe me, in my become an issue in which we will have the constituency after a rain on some of our gravel opportunity to make a very clear choice in roads, Barry Tinkler and I, Monday is not a determining where we want to be in the next pleasant day. Start Sunday afternoon. People century in the fu ture direction of our country on see it, and they know it. I think what is going to these important issues. happen is you cannot ignore these too much longer. The Canadian public is going to want Mr. Jennissen: I would like to ask at least one them to be addressed. more, I guess you would call it a macro­ question, general question. Maybe we will get I think the current government in Ottawa is into some more specific stufftoday yet. I hate to going to find that it is a fire storm that they bring it up, but it is the Kyoto Protocol that we cannot put out, that will continue to grow. I did sign as a nation. I am mystified in my own expect that other political parties and the current mind how that would work. We are talking on one governing our nation will pick up on this the one hand we are going to lower greenhouse issue to give the contrast, and they will say that emissions and so on, I guess also conserve to part of our national agenda is to address these some degree fossil fu el resources and so on. It issues; here is how we will address it. The sounds very good environmentally, but on a day­ current government will say, no, we do not want to-day basis, on a year-to-year basis, it appears to do that, and there will be a contrast set up to me we have bigger trucks on the road. We where Canadians will have to make a choice on have got more emission, and we want the issues just like Canadians had to on free trade. I economic activity. I just do not see how we can mean, whether you were fo r or against it. I resolve what appears to be, on the surface, two know our political parties took different points contradictory directions. of view, but it was clear when people were voting that there were visions of the country, I know the government fe derally says we - there were issues, and it was one fe deral have to take the environment seriously, but on a June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3125 basic level, we are also saying economic activity business and live their lives. Mine do not in Lac demands this, this and this, and certainly the du Bonnet. We do not have the kinds of internal combustion engine is very much a part numbers that warrant or the convenience of a of it. We could argue that maybe railroads or public transportation system. Yes, you can filla trains would use less fossil fuels, but even that bus a couple of times a day from Victoria Beach direction is changing as most of the goods and to Winnipeg, but you could not provide the commodities are hauled by trucks nowadays, and convenience in hours or drop-off locations that larger trucks. So I guess I see a conflict there people need to live their lives. So what we that I cannot really resolve. I would welcome would see with that solution, in my view, is a tax the minister's opinion on this. on fuel, making it more expensive for families to get around and do their business. Another hard­ Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, again a very ship on them, very little reduction in fuel interesting area to explore. As an historian, I consumption because most of our constituents just fo r a moment ask the member and the have to do their driving and do the things that indulgence of members of the committee to just they need to do, and at the end of the day the travel back a couple of hundred years ago to the fe deral government will scoop up that money. Industrial Revolution in the United Kingdom, They certainly would not probably put it into the the first European nation really to industrialize road system or they would use it to develop heavily or at least the development of the steam public transportation in parts of the country engine, railroads with that, the mining industry, where the disadvantaged with that fuel tax would all of it on coal, to the point where, by the end of not live. the Second World War, the United Kingdom was heavily polluted-if you look at the London So we have great concerns about how the fo g, you know, mostly soot from burning coal in fe deral government is approaching its Kyoto all of those houses, all of those issues. Quite an requirements. We think that in dealing with environmental degradation had taken place, and Kyoto, the answer is to look fo rward, to be more yet today I would suggest the United Kingdom innovative, to find better ways, more efficient uses more units of energy than it ever has in its ways of using fuel,reducing emissions, reducing history. pollution and moving the world forward so that we are not curtailing economic activity. The Now there are other problems with nuclear­ United Kingdom did not come to grips with its and those are being addressed-and other sources. pollution problems and its use of coal, and I But if you travel the United Kingdom today, you imagine growing up in Holland-! do not know do not see anywhere near what you would have what age the member left Holland, but certainly seen 50 years ago or a hundred years ago. Holland was a big consumer of coal in those Science and human innovation have moved us days, too, and I am sure he was born and fo rward and saved our bacon, so to speak, on growing up. Those countries did not solve their many occasions. Again, science and innovation problem by saying we are not going to use any have to be called upon to deal with these issues more fuel. We are going to go back to burning that surround Kyoto. What concerns me, and I peat and not having industry and not moving would expect would concern the member fo r around and not having trains. They moved Flin Flon, is when we hear fe deral officials fo rward by finding other means of energy, advancing as their solution the introduction of a improving the efficiencies of the energy they 10-cents-a-litre Kyoto tax-I call it the Chretien were using and cleaning up their production in a tax-to discourage the use of motor vehicles. manner that was more environmentally fr iendly. Europe is probably greener today than it was 40 * (1730) or 50 years ago in the days of heavy use of coal.

I ask the member fo r Flin Flon, because I am So we have to move fo rward on that basis. I having trouble with that, how in his constituency think it really calls for innovation, but the simple will raising the price 10 cents a litre really answer that is often touted by the fe ds is just we reduce travel? His constituents have all kinds of will put on a fuel tax and that will be great options with which to conduct their daily because people will drive Jess. Well, the voters 3126 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 in Lac du Bonnet constituency do not have a lot flood, the flood of the century. I know some - of options but to drive. Given their numbers, infrastructure was damaged, road infrastructure, they will never get the convenience that they and it did cost us money, but was that money enjoy today. I know there is a public trans­ reimbursed in the sense that the feds put in a portation system in Flin Flon, because you have certain percentage? What was the fe deral some numbers around that city, if I am not proportion of that? mistaken, but certainly your voters in the outlying areas would be in the same position as Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I know this is a very mine. So we have to be innovative; we have to important set of numbers. If the member will continue to advance that. indulge my staff and myself, I am going to have my staff do that breakdown fo r the member for I spoke at a conference at noon today tomorrow and then give us a breakdown. Just to regarding the rail industry and the environment, understand, he would like to know what our total and I engaged in a discussion with an academic infrastructure, not only the department but what who was a very strong advocate fo r fu el taxes. was done, damage to infrastructure, municipal, But, then again, that individual does not have far and if we know that. We can endeavour to see to go to work in the morning and lives close to what information we can get and then what was where they work and all those things. I made the paid for by the fe deral government. We will challenge: if you want to advocate fo r that, endeavour to have a chat with the people come and run against me in Lac du Bonnet in the tomorrow morningat EMO to see if we can give next election on that issue. He was not prepared you as complete a picture as possible. to do that. Mr. Jennissen: I just was basically concerned So again it is easy fo r people to talk about about the fe deral portion or how much the fe ds our answers, but they have to be saleable to the had actually contributed, if anything. I never public. The only way I believe they ultimately really got a clear answer on that, and I would are is if the solutions are innovative and do the like to sort of have that clarified. job in a manner that moves us fo rward rather than moving us back. One other area I would like to talk about-we do not have an awful lot of time left-but get Mr. Jennissen: The minister is correct that the some of these general macro issues out of the fe deral solution or possible solution of simply way. The creation of Nunavut a little while ago raising taxes on fuel would go over like a lead filled a lot of us in Manitoba and all of Canada balloon in my part of the world. People in, let us with joy. There were some concerns about it as say, Leaf Rapids, to use one example, are well, particularly with the Dene nation in already paying 10 cents, 15 cents more a litre northern Manitoba. I guess Nunavut existing as than you are right here in Winnipeg, at least 10 a separate entity now just highlights the fact that cents a litremore fo r gasoline, and ifyou were to we are going to be dealing with it a lot more. add another 10 cents to that, you know, it We are going to be expanding the trade links a becomes astronomical. I would see gasoline lot more, at least that is the fe eling I have. I selling at a dollar a litre or something. By the referenced it earlier when I said we are talking way, when I go to Europe, they are charging about studies where we are going to see how $2.30 in Holland right now I believe, in Dutch likely it is to build roads and bring power lines cents, but it is still around $2 a litre. So I mean to that northern area. Now what is the status of it could go up, but I hope it does not, and those studies? Are there any blueprints of what certainly it would not be very welcome in my is likely to happen or how it is going to happen? part of the world. Mr. Praznik: Specifically, I know we are doing I was going to switch the topic somewhat a transportation study with Nunavut on their and ask some other questions. One question I needs. That will be ready, I am told, in August. have is we really never got, at least I do not I am not fam iliar with the power line issues. remember getting, a firm figure on what it cost That would be the Hydro minister. But one of - us in terms of infrastructure damage in the '97 the issues fo r them, of course, is a very small June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3127 territory population-wise, and the new govern­ Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I am advised that kind ment getting itself together. I would not say of work will be completed in August. these projects are on the cusp of being done. Mr. Jennissen: Are there any rough ballpark I say to the member, the development or the figures in terms of dollars attached to this? finding of a few good ore deposits, a number of Because it seems like an extremely expensive things, would certainly go a long way to project. probably speeding them up and having the national government involved, because it is a Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, these are very rough fe deral territory, and important too, but we are estimates that we have. Again, you know, just doing the transportation study with them. It will sort of an eyeballing it based on building to full be ready in August. Sometime thereafter, later standards, et cetera, not something less, but a full in the fall, the member may want to ask me fo r standard road. Just to give you some numbers: it, and we will see if we can provide it to him. for the first route, which would be Churchiii­ Arvalik-Whale Cove-Rankin would be 956 kilometres. The construction cost is about, Mr. Jennissen: At this time, is there sort of a estimated, and again very rough, $1.6 billion. predisposition, if there were to be a road, that it Just to put it in perspective, that would be a little would take the Churchill route rather than the under one-third of the entire provincial budget of Lynn Lake-Leaf Rapids-Tadoule Lake route? our province. The annual maintenance would be about $8 million. Mr. Praznik: There are five potential options that are being explored in the study. One is the Just looking at that, if we were to do a Churchill-Arvalik-Whale Cove-Rankin Road. winter road, which would then be 1,052 Option 1(a) I guess would be the winter ice route kilometres, the year one construction of it would along the Hudson Bay coast, which would be $17 million with a $6-million maintenance. be another version of that. Option 2 would You can tell winter roads have a financial saving be Gillam-Churchill-Arvalik-Whale Cove­ that is pretty significant. Rankin. Option 3 would be Lynn Lake-Tadoule Lake-Arvalik-Whale Cove-Rankin. Option 4 Route 2, which is the Gillam-Churchill­ would be Lynn Lake-Arvalik-Whale Cove­ Arvalik-Whale Cove-Rankin, would be 1,233 Rankin. Option 5 would be Lynn Lake-Arvalik­ kilometres, estimated construction costs $1.9 Whale Cove-Rankin, another particular billion, annual maintenance $10 million. alignment. Number 3 which is Lynn Lake-Tadoule Lake-Arvalik-Whale Cove-Rankin would be Mr. Jennissen: When the minister says let us 1, 193 kilometres, $1.6 billion, $10 million say Scenario 3 Lynn Lake-Arvalik, et cetera, if annual maintenance. that were a potentiality, would that road then connect Brochet-Lac Brochet-Tadoule Lake? Route 4, Lynn Lake-Arvalik-Whale Cove­ Would they be within striking range of that Rankin, would be I ,229 kilometres approxi­ road? mately and a construction cost of $1.5 billion, $10 million annual operating. * (1740) Route 5, Lynn Lake-Arvalik-Whale Cove­ Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, Option 3 would be Rankin, with a different alignment than route Lynn Lake-Tadoule Lake-Arvalik-Whale Cove­ fo ur, would be 1,290 kilometres, $1.7 billion to Rankin, and Brochet and Lac Brochet would be construct, $11 million a year to operate. very close to the route, so a connection would not be impossible. So as the member can see, the economics of building that kind of road, we would have to Mr. Jennissen: This is still in the study stage have some significant partners who would have and nothing will be known until- economic interest in developing it. When you 3128 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 consider that that $1.2 billion would probably and we have the school. So people have to keep take care of all of our highway projects, if I had with it, and depending on the future you never $1.2 billion to spend right across the province, know what it holds, but it is a very expensive the member fo r Flin Flon would have such good road. So one gets a sense of the enormity of the roads, his constituency would probably want to kind of development that would have to take return aConservative member. place. Even the resupply numbers, if you look at the cost of supplying those territories in goods Mr. Jennissen: Either that or thank me fo r and services, I suspect that they are just not there getting the Conservatives to do this is a to justifythat kind of construction cost. possibility, too. Mr. Jennissen: As well, I would like to point I thank the minister because that is very out to the minister that there is some concern, interesting. So would it be fair then to say that that even though this is still a dream project and this is a long-range dream? It is a study, all the chance of it even being realized within the right, but any portion of that becoming concrete next 20, 30 years is probably somewhat remote I is unlikely, would that be fair to say? am guessing, the Dene have already registered some concerns. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I can guarantee him it will not be concrete which that road will be built I am just wondering if the minister or with. anybody in the Highways department has even, at a very preliminary stage, approached them on The member has been around here with me the issues of the concerns that they have because many years in this Legislature. The kinds of they are saying if this road crosses our territory numbers we are talking are just so significant we want some longstanding issues addressed. In that it is highly unlikely. If they prove to be the the case of the Northlands Dene in Lac Brochet, numbers, it is highly unlikely that we would see I think it is treaty land entitlement probably that this in the foreseeable future. But, then again, they are talking about. In the case of the Sayisi there are a lot of reasons why a road like that can Dene, it is also forced relocation in the '50s, be important. wanting an apology fr om the fe deral government and compensation, plus there are some hunting The Alaska Highway was a terribly and fishing rights issues as well. Now, because uneconomic road until war broke out with Japan they have been on record with the support of and the Americans had to get a lot of equipment some other aboriginal organizations as opposing and people and personnel up into Alaska real that, unless those issues were dealt with, I am quick. All of a sudden, during wartime, the just wondering if those groups had been Alaska Highway got built. It never would have approached and there had been some preliminary likely been built for decades without the war. I discussions? am not proposing that we need a war with someone to build this road, but some other Mr. Praznik: First of all, our study is really a unforeseen circumstance, major mineral deposits logistics analysis. Before one can even approach being discovered, I would suggest probably a anybody, one wants to know what the con­ major petroleum find in Hudson Bay, you know, sequences or the logistics are of building a road something that would see a major economic and what works from that perspective. But I development that would require the movement have to say to the member that any kind of road of lots of stuff into a place. The reason we have of that magnitude is likely to require a fe deral a road to Gillam today is because we have environmental study and a licence because it will hydroelectric dams there, and we had a lot of cross borders. It will also have to be a partnered stuffto move in. project with the national government which will bring on that process. I tell you, as a province, So, again, you never want to say never. Just we would not want to be going into that kind of like I told my constituency who built a school, it construction and a partnership with the fe ds and - may seem impossible today but you keep Nunavut if all these other issues were not working at it. It took us 10 years or eight years, addressed first, because we know the con- June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3129 sequences as Manitobans in building power northern airports released by Mr. Findlay dams without dealing with the issues first, and November 6? That was the report by the we still have one northern flood agreement to provincial airport safety working group and was complete. It goes on fo rever. in response to the tragic air crash in Little Grand Rapids earlier which drew attention to the need So today, we simply would not do that. fo r, I think, some major changes and upgrading These issues would have to be addressed in a needed in a lot of the northern airports. So could reasonable fashion. Legitimate issues fo r which the minister respond in general, first of all, to there is a legal right to be pursued would have to that report? be addressed before we would ever want to enter into that kind of project. But again, looking at Mr. Praznik: With the kind wishes of the the magnitude of the levels of expenditure, committee, I would like Mr. Hosang just to give unless there is some very significant event or us a rundown rather than him tell me and me economic development that would in essence repeat it. He will just give you a review of what justify that level of expenditure, I just do not see was in that report, because it dealt with the this happening in a long time. I would suggest, general safety and maintenance of airports and I have not looked at the economics of a generally. Also, I think if we could give him a hydro line, but I would think it was probably far moment or two to respond on the specific report better or far cheaper at some point if you have with respect to, I believe it is Little Grand enough power demand. Again, there may not Rapids where we had the tragedy and whether or even be enough power demand in many of these not the airport was a factor in that tragedy. communities to justify the cost today, but if you had some very significant power demand growth Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the in Nunavut, mining, smelting-! doubt if it would committee that Mr. Hosang would answer on be a smelter, but certainly mining and this particular subject? [agreed] processing-of mineral wealth that would justify bringing in a line, that is probably a more Mr. John Hosang (Assistant Deputy Minister, likelihood of having a power line system come Engineering and Technical Services Division): in eventually than having a roadway. That First of all, yes. The accident did prompt the would probably be the first step. study. It was sort of the issue that brought the department and the First Nations together to look Mr. Jennissen: If I could go back to one of the at the safety situation with respect to all the scenarios again. The first one, 1(a), I believe the airports that the province maintains throughout one through Churchill, would that be run the North, all 22, not specifically Little Grand alongside the railroad or beside the rail bed? I Rapids. The issue of the accident at Little Grand am trying to visualize how that would work, the Rapids is being investigated by the fe deral road. National Transportation Safety Board, which the member may be aware of. Mr. Praznik: That is part of the logistics in mapping that is being done in the study, so that Generally, the report found that the airports, is something they would have to assess. I know they are certified by Transport Canada, which there is a much better esker in that particular means they fo llow certain standards that area that would provide a much sounder bed. I Transport Canada dictates if the airports are to guess if the railway would have been on the be used for public transportation, and the esker, it would have been probably a better airports did meet the requirements. The issue is railroad than it is today, but those are issues that that they were built, and I think the member that logistics study will tell us about. referred to it in his opening remarks, they were built fo r a diffe rent decade. Aircraft nowadays * (1750) need longer runways generally than what we have got there. They can operate into these Mr. Jennissen: I know it is perhaps doing this airports now, but there are restrictions on the at the last minute, but is the minister prepared to types of operations that they have to fly. So the move on to airports, particularly the report of the report in essence prepared a benchmark in terms 3130 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 of what is out there now, the lengths and the Mr. Hosang: We have been working at that site - facilities that are available, the navigation aids. over the past year, removing rock from the one We drew some standards up which were end that was prohibiting us fr om getting it accepted by the minister, Minister Findlay, as to certified to Transport Canada standards. We how these airports should be expanded basically have removed the rock. Unfortunately, we had in length in the future to meet the requirements to go back in a couple of times because they did now and in the fo reseeable future of the various not quite remove enough the first time, and we air carriers that flyinto the North. have a project on the program this year with the current budget that will allow us to build 3,000 We consulted with the carriers, asked them fe et, a full 3,000-foot runway there this year. what kind of aircraft they thought they would use in the future, and that information was used Mr. Jennissen: So that would be completed by to determine the various lengths that we thought the end of the year. were appropriate in the future. The member may be aware that our basic length was 3,000 feet to Mr. Hosang: In the current fiscal year, yes. accommodate the air ambulance, that safety of life and limb was of the utmost importance and Mr. Jennissen: Lac Brochet, we had some that a lot of other activities can operate on that problems with the muskeg, specifically on the premise of 3,000 feet, but the driving factor was apron portion and one side of the airstrip as well. to provide that level of service to all com­ Is that just located in a bad spot because it seems munities. Then from there, depending on the size to me we are going to have more problems there of the community, the strip length increased in the near future? It does not look like stable again based on projections as well as actual ground to me. states at the current point in time where the runway should be lengthened to meet those Mr. Hosang: Are you referring to the fact that needs. We came up with many recommen­ it was closed down fo r several days a few dations, including the need fo r some navigation months or so ago? aids, basically approach aids fo r the airports. We costed out many of them, and the cost was Mr. Jennissen: Yes, I am and also that one of just under $44 million, so that was the essence of the planes actually got stuck in the apron the report. because apparently that is built over top of muskeg. If I remember correctly, the chief told Mr. Jennissen: So how many of the existing 22 me that there are plans in the works to lengthen airports are under 3,000 fe et, fo ur or five? that airstrip. But, flying it a fe w times, I am not quite clear where that-well, it would have to be Mr. Hosang: There are eight airports that do lengthened obviously on the muskeg end not have the 3,000 fe et now. because it cannot go into the lake, not unless we want to spend a lot of money, and that looks like Mr. Jennissen: Prior to 3,000 fe et-what, to awfully deep muskeg there, so I am not quite accommodate that particular medivac plane? I sure what the plans are to upgrade that airport. am not sure where we arrived at the figure, because I believe in Ontario the length is longer Mr. Hosang: Yes, that runway, first of all, to for most airports. address this softness issue and the aircraft sinking into the apron, that was sort of an Mr. Hosang: Ontario is building longer than abnormal condition of very, very wet conditions, 3,000 feet. We chose 3,000 fe et because that is rapid thaw, and the staffju st were not able to what the provincial government Air Services keep the surface compacted and they had some ambulance needs to access a site. equipment problems that caused the situation to be dragged out a little longer than what we Mr. Jennissen: Pukatawagan would be one of would have expected. We think that generally those airports under 3,000. I wonder if you though, however, the airstrip that is there is - could give me a status report of what is reliable under normal conditions that you would happening there. attribute to gravel runways. Our intent is to June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3131 extend, yes, into the boggy area. I do not have Our provincial Minister of Agriculture (Mr. the engineering detail right now. We are Enns) is quoted as saying that the changes being working on that. announced today will provide approximately $18 million in assistance to Manitoba farmers who I mean we were just advised. Of course, will not be able to seed their land this spring due with the fu nding availability, we are looking at to excess moisture. This assistance under AIDA the amount of effo rt required, but we plan to be will not only help farmers, but also the able to extend the runway into that area. We businesses in the area who are being impacted have been very successful where we have put by the disaster. runways, generally we get stable surfaces. NISA changes will see the minimum income Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The time trigger amount increase from $10,000 to $20,000 being six o'clock, committee rise. fo r an individual and from $20,000 to $35,000 fo r farm families. Another measure will help * (1440) expanding operations more easily access their accounts. The changes will also indicate a EXECUTIVE COUNCIL provision which will allow both a NJSA withdrawal and deposit in the same year. It will Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will also be easier fo r producers to use the interim the Committee of Supply please come to order. withdrawal fe ature ofNISA. There will be more This section of the Committee of Supply will be time allowed, that is, a full year instead of three dealing with the Estimates fo r Executive months, for producers to repay funds to their Council. Would the First Minister's staff please accounts. When they withdraw more than they enter the Chamber at this time. are eligible fo r under the payment triggers and they are not able to repay, they will be allowed Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): to re-enter the program sooner than they can Can the Premier indicate if he has any further under the current rules, two years instead of information on the specifics of farm aid? What three. specific announcements will he be announcing per acre as a contingency plan fo r unseeded Those are all the details that I have at my acreage? disposal. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Chairman, I have a news release that was issued in Brandon Mr. Doer: If the $18 million is correct, this afternoon. It indicated that Manitoba farmers notwithstanding NISA, if we are dealing with a who have been hit hard by flooding and low million acres of land that has led to speculation prices in recent months will be getting in terms of being unseeded land at best, based on Agriculture Income Disaster Assistance funding the situation, I am just trying to do some fa ster and will have easier access to funds calculations, that would appear to me to be a through changes to the national Net Income small amount of money per acre. It would Stabilization Account program. appear to me to be well below the $50 million per acre that everyone is talking about as a Federal Minister Mr. Vanclief has said that a mtmmum payment. Has the government total of $22 million in additional NISA funding calculated the per-acreage payment and does it will be accessible immediately to farmers in not leave a huge discrepancy between what is Manitoba. Farmers will be eligible fo r an needed and what has been announced? advance payment of up to 60 percent under the 1999 AIDA program. Farmers short of cash * (1450) could be eligible to receive both a payment fo r the 1998 program and an advance on the 1999 Mr. Filmon: The latest information I was program in the next fe w months. Producers are handed just before going in to the House today encouraged to submit their 1998 AIDA was that the unseeded acreage in Manitoba is applications before the July 31 deadline. approximately 750,000 acres, and my under- 3132 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

standing is that this would make the approximate knowledge of any testimony that he had given. - acreage payment about $25 an acre . In fact, his announced resignation took me completely by surprise. It was only later, and I Mr. Doer: Of course this will be an ongoing do not know how many days or weeks later, but issue, so we will continue to monitor it along it was that last Friday of the month of July that I with the government. received that information. It was based on receiving then a transcript of his statement that I would like to ask the Premier some other he made to the inquiry, a copy of which was questions dealing with his staff. Can the Premier given to the legal counsel fo r the Conservative indicate whether Mr. Sokolyk was dismissed or Party, which was then shared with me. I would did he resign? have to go back and check the dates. My recollection is that the resignation took place Mr. Filmon: Mr. Sokolyk spoke to the Clerk probably a week or more ahead of the time that I of the Executive Council indicating that he was received the information. wanting to resign and asked about the possibility of negotiating a modest severance that would be Mr. Doer: In the period after the government equivalent to what he would be entitled to if he announced on the Monday that former Justice were severed. That was done and based on his Monnin would be hired to conduct an inquiry number of years of employment. He was given until the date of Mr. Sokolyk's resignation, how the payment that he would have as a senior many times did the Premier meet with the officerreceived. Conservative legal counsel about the conduct of Mr. Sokolyk? Mr. Doer: The announcement was made in July; of course, the Premier stated that there was Mr. Filmon: I do not have any information on no coupling of the announcement with the so­ that, and it would be difficult for me to recall called Monnin inquiry. Of course, we found out that. Just from memory, I do not think I began later on that the testimony from Mr. Sokolyk my meetings with him until after Mr. Sokolyk's was changing and then changed, of course, resignation, and the earliest would have been again. Can the Premier indicate, Mr. Chair­ some time afterthat. I do not know. person, through you to the Premier, can he indicate what the severance payment was? How Mr. Doer: Did the Clerk of Cabinet meet with much money was it and based on what the Conservative Party's legal counsel prior to entitlement? that or at any other occasion subsequent to that? Mr. Filmon: He received one month of pay for Mr. Filmon: I am informed not. every year of service, which was a total of eight months, and it amounted to $65,400, I am Mr. Doer: Did any member of his staff meet informed. with legal counsel prior to the resignation of Mr. Sokolyk on the date released by the Premier? I Mr. Doer: The $65,400 was paid out. Was the was in the Legislature that day when the Premier not aware at the time that Mr. Sokolyk announcement was made. I speculated that there had been giving evidence and testimony to legal was a potential link between the allegations and counsel that was retained by the Conservative the resignation, of course, which eventually Party and that his testimony to legal counsel in became true. The Premier, of course, the same his first statement and his changed statement day denied that. In fact, there was quite a testy would have provided grounds for potential exchange that I noticed on TV, with the Premier culpability in this pending affair, which being pulled back from that exchange by his eventually happened? Did the Premier make this press secretary. decision of severance or did the Clerk of Cabinet make it? Did any member of the Premier's staff meet Mr. Filmon: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated with legal counsel before the resignation of Mr. - publicly at the time, I had not seen or had any Sokolyk on the matters germane to Mr. June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3133

Sokolyk's resignation, as identified later on with on. So the negotiation took place under those evidence? circumstance.

Mr. Filmon: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Mr. Doer: The Premier has testified that Mr. Chairman. Sokolyk told him in June at a staff meeting that "they are onto something," and you advised him Mr. Doer: Did Mr. Sokolyk meet with legal to get a lawyer and remove himself from the counsel before his resignation? meetings. So the Premier, when he denied that Mr. Sokolyk was involved in any potential Mr. Filmon: I have no information on that, Mr. wrongdoing in his press serum or he said he did Chairman. not have any connection when he approved the severance pay, there already was direct * (1500) communication from Mr. Sokolyk that would have alerted him prior to Mr. Sokolyk resigning. Mr. Doer: Well, the Premier just said not to his Did the Premier not recall his conversation in knowledge. Mr. Sokolyk was a member of his June with Mr. Sokolyk where he advised him staff before the resignation, and I am wondering that they are onto this issue or there is something whether he, in fact, met with legal counsel. I to it? Mr. Chairperson, if there was something mean, the decision to issue severance dealing to it, why was the Premier not concerned about with somebody that ultimately could have been his initial conversation from Mr. Sokolyk (a) in dismissed for cause was made by the Clerk of terms of his denial in the media serum, and (b) in Cabinet and obviously must be approved by the terms of the application of taxpayers' money for Premier. Did the Premier investigate whether severance? legal counsel had met with the individual that was resigning or can he say that he does not Mr. Film on: I just want to let the Leader of the know then? He has two answers: not to his Opposition know that I have testified under oath knowledge nobody met and he does not know. both directly to the counsel fo r the inquiry and Which one is it? then in a period of six and a half hours of cross­ examination by the solicitor for his party, Mr. Filmon: It is both. At the time, I thought solicitor for Mr. Sutherland, solicitor fo r the that the question was referenced to somebody Liberal Party, and counsel fo r the inquiry. I else other than Mr. Sokolyk when I said not to have said unequivocally, and I repeat fo r him, my knowledge. In terms of any meeting between that I interpreted Mr. Sokolyk's offhand Mr. Sokolyk and the lawyer for the party, the comment which was made in the space of less member would have to ask Mr. Sokolyk or the than 30 seconds, as I had all of this material that counsel for the party, but not to my knowledge I normally carry in the House under my arm, did that occur, and I have not had any discussion straightening my tie and leaving my office, I with them on the issue. I do not recall any interpreted the comment which was: It is not information being shared that would have true, firstly. So the allegations were not true. implicated Mr. Sokolyk, or I would not have When I said something does not add, he said: it been as strong in my denial that the two were is not true, but they have stumbled onto linked. something, only to mean that Mr. Sokolyk had knowledge or information about the actions of Mr. Doer: Did the Clerk of Cabinet recommend others, not that he was in any way centrally that severance be applied here and there was no involved. I have said that before. I have said it potential issue of cause to the Premier? to my family. I have said it to many people with whom I had discussions on this matter before Mr. Filmon: At the time we had no reason to any of the information came out. But that was believe that Mr. Sokolyk was implicated in it, so my sole and complete belief about it. As it a negotiation took place in good faith. It was turned out, as I said to the inquiry, I was clear, I think, to the Clerk who was dealing with completely shocked to find out that he was not him that Mr. Sokolyk was under great stress, and only involved, but a central figure in the whole he did not believe he was in a position to carry exercise. 3134 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

Mr. Doer: Given the public allegations that have perks because the salaries were inadequate were being made at the time by Mr. Sutherland to hire people, and I made public statements that and Mr. Sigurdson and others, was the Premier actually were criticized by the Liberals on the not concerned about approving severance that MPI chair recruitment in one of the actions · of had been negotiated by the Clerk of Cabinet? the government because I thought we should be Was he not concerned about that, given the more honest on salary and requiring less serious allegations and the fact that allowing incentives on the other side, the perk side if you somebody to resign versus dismissal fo r just will, of the job. cause has a diffe rent financial reality to it in terms of the taxpayers, and a diffe rent * (1510) accountability in terms of the Premier's Office? So I have never criticized the report that was Mr. Filmon: There are two sides to that. As issued by Clayton Manness. I initiated it, we somebody who has been an employer in both the handed it off in transition, I supported it after it private sector and the public sector, as somebody was dropped, and I have supported it since the who has obviously had the experience of having government has initiated the recommendations had the former CEO of MPI sue the government there for people. The fo rmula is not something I successfully fo r hundreds of thousands of have difficulty with. It is the application of the dollars, indeed, millions, over a severance that fo rmula for somebody that is already alleged to was deemed to have been fo r cause, I know that be in trouble by other people and resigns at the it is never, ever a guarantee that one is going to end of July under pretty heated circumstances be successful under any circumstances in we thought at the time. Obviously, our judgment severing somebody, whether there is perceived about the circumstances was more accurate than to be cause or not. the Premier's judgment. When he denied it had anything to do with the inquiry, we said publicly So when somebody says all they want is it had, we believed. what they would normally get under the civil service arrangements, I would assume that the I guess that really raises the other issue of Clerk of the Executive Council would take a judgment. Two years ago we moved a motion in good look at that and say, well, is this this Legislature. I have only moved one motion reasonable, because under many other circum­ to delete one salary line in the number of years stances and our New Democratic predecessors that we have dealt with each other in Estimates. built in clauses that gave people two years of pay I only moved one salary line ever in his fo r being removed from their position. There are Estimates, or I stand to be-l am not 1 00 percent plenty of precedents today that say that those sure. I am just going by memory, but I believe I kinds of settlements could and are being only deleted one salary. I know it was Mr. awarded, so when the Clerk sits down with an Sokolyk's salary in 1997. We had done that individual and says that there is a severance that because we had heard from a number of sources only amounts to what you would normally be about the so-called dirty tricks that were being entitled to on leaving government, I accepted it conducted by and around the Premier's Office, as being a reasonable proposal, quite honestly. phoning radio talk show hosts and saying you are somebody else. A constituent of A vis Gray Mr. Doer: I have no difficulty in the formula was one of the people that called, and the dulcet and the one month. In fact, the Premier and I are voice of Ron Arnstwas clearly identified, denied both grandfathered, if you will, on that provision by the way by the deputy premier and all and that was dealt with before because I think that, sundry fo r a couple of days until Bob Irving, I and of course the Fox-Decent report changed think, went on and said: yes, I worked with him some of that, but I have no difficulty whatsoever in Brandon; I know his voice. with the one month for every year of service. That is not a problem I have, and I personally, Other members of the Executive Council with CEOs, had a report written on CEOs' were phoning from the Legislative Building to salaries because, in my view, some of the-we the open line shows alleging to be somebody had a consulting firm deal with that. We used to else. Letters were being written. There was a June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3135 whole series of other events that we cited. At assessment of circumstances. This is one of that time the Premier had an early warning them, and just because the Leader of the system. We do not come in here in Estimates, I Opposition raised it does not automatically make do not come in here in Estimates, trying to fire it right. the staff the Premier hires, but we had heard enough evidence about Mr. Sokolyk that should I mean, his colleagues in government have have had the bells ringing in the Premier's ears. raised issues about individuals on numerous occasions, and if I have to go back and start Now why do we in opposition, in hindsight, looking at the Hansards and the files of how have better judgment than the Premier on the many times they were wrong on issues that they quality of the staff and the kind of dirty tricks raised in this House to demonstrate that that were evident then and now very evident everybody makes a mistake from time to time, afterthe Monnin inquiry? Why is he able to hire the question is whether or not the mistake is one people like Mr. Sokolyk on the political side? I of such major proportion as in this instance am not talking about the civil service side and where obviously it did have a significant impact people before us at this table whom I respect. I on the career of not only one individual but on am talking about the chief of staff, the political the careers of several people who engaged in the operative in the Premier's Office, and why were process ultimately. we able to have a judgment about this individual that has now stood the test of time, and the That is what Mr. Monnin said. He said that Premier did not? these people paid with their careers and their reputations, and it was a human tragedy, I think Why is it that members of his own party is another statement that he made. Does that were concerned about this individual that we had mean that I should have been able to anticipate heard from, members of the public, members of this? No. I regarded what the Leader of the the media, members around this building, Opposition was doing at the time as playing members that are involved in political affairs politics. In the end, he was proven to be correct were worried about this individual? Why was in his judgment of the individual, and for that, the Premier not able to see this? Is that because obviously it has been a very painful experience he really does believe that people that work him for me to have been wrong in my judgment of should be doing anything fo r political advantage, the individual. the kind of Bob Kozminski theory of government: I wiii do whatever it takes to defeat Mr. Doer: I very rarely criticize senior civil the other side. Is that the kind of modus servants. I have gone back over Hansard over a operandi or is the Premier just short of judgment number of years, and I have been very careful when it comes to political staff? about that, because I think that the Premier and I can argue about something and accuse each Mr. Filmon: Well, Mr. Chairman, obviously, other of something, but we can defend ourselves. hindsight is 20-20 vision. I have had the People who cannot, it is a different matter. privilege of being in office fo r a long time, more than II years as Premier. Prior to that I was And I agree that none of us are perfect. I obviously Leader of the Opposition. I was a will say that about myself in a moment. People minister in the government of Sterling Lyon. I that we have employed make mistakes. People was in the private sector where I employed many that are volunteers make mistakes. When people people over the years, and I believe that my make mistakes, all I expect from them is judgment about people has been solid. It has honesty, because the honesty is the one value been sound, but every once in a while everybody that we need in people we work with and we can make an error in judgment. I suppose that I need with volunteers. If people make a mistake, could only be accused of being perfect if I were we want honest acknowledgement of those not human. I am human, and I cannot honestly mistakes so you can move on, because to not be take any other lesson from this other than to say honest is to compound it and compound it and that throughout my life, I am sure that I have compound it again. Even though the public is made errors in judgment and errors in cynical about the word of all of us, I believe that 3136 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

most people in this room are honourable, have a any human being, would have seen the - disagreement about the means of doing a better possibility of him engaging on behalf of a friend job for Manitoba, but I was concerned about in a process that was dishonest and unethical. I honesty. just, in looking back, did not foresee the possibility. I would be surprised if the Leader of With Mr. Sokolyk I was concerned about a the Opposition could honestly tell me that he culture of-I guess Mr. Kozminski stated it, and I could have fo reseen that, judging the person's witnessed it in other examples, where if one record. person from one office phoned an open-line talk show, I would assume that that may be Mr . Edward He lwer, Acting Chairperson, in the overzealousness, but when two people do it, I Chair know it is a deliberate campaign, and the Premier has been around the block enough to Mr. Doer: Mr. Chairperson, if you look on the know it is a deliberate campaign. Then fo llowing record when the person was appointed, I was from that, other issues that became identified quite concerned about the treasurer of the later on that I described in 1997, I thought that Conservative Party becoming then the secretary was a symptom of something that went beyond of the Treasury Board. I was quite concerned the usual give and take in this Legislature. about an absolute partisan-not a partisan, I mean there are people that are hired from time to time So I moved the motion, and if the Premier that are consistent with the government's views, checks his records, I think it is the only motion and the public gives them a mandate to do so. I on an individual I have moved that I certainly was concerned about the role of somebody who can recall. I went back to 1990. And I was not is in charge of raising money being in charge of playing politics with staff. I have never played recommending the merit or lack of merit of a politics with the Premier's staff in Estimates, contract, so we can go back and fo rth on this because the Premier and I are elected to deal issue. - with policy and political and principled issues. The staff are here to do their job to the best of From the early times that this individual was their ability and do it honestly and with integrity hired, I never questioned his CA qualifications, on behalf of the people of Manitoba. and I never questioned his business qualifica­ tions, his experience in the private sector. I *(1520) guess it really begs the question: what is the culture in the Premier's Office that allowed fo r The other staff I have actually criticized the people to do things and nobody-the only person Premier on has been Mr. Benson. He and I have apparently who raised this concern was Felix had arguments in previous incarnations, in our Holtmann. If you look at the old Sodom and previous Estimates processes about Mr. Benson. Gomorrah, finally one person, or I think it Does the Premier fe el he used good judgment started with a number of people, then it was with the selection of Mr. Benson for the job he down to 10 to save the community. performed? What does it say about the people, the Mr. Filmon: Mr. Chairman, I had the same culture, in the Premier's Office? I think Bob discussion with various different lawyers and Kozminski may have stated it, regrettably, representatives at the Monnin inquiry. When correctly: I will do whatever it takes. Is the you have an individual who has been a chartered Premier not concerned that not one person, not accountant for 40 years, who is the senior one friend of his, not one person who is doing managing partner for western Canada of one of business deals with the government, not one of the largest-I think it was at the time the largest his senior staff alerted him before the '95 multinational accounting firm in Canada, election or right after the '95 election, before the somebody who has an immense history of Elections Manitoba investigation took place? positive experience in his profession and in the What does that say about the culture of the business community, I do not think there is any Premier's Office? Is it absolutely geared fo r - way that the Leader of the Opposition, nor I, nor winning at all costs, and really is that beyond all June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3137 the testimony and beyond all the people that the process or of the actions, including have been cited? Is the Premier not worried somebody who overheard a conversation in a about that conclusion that is easily drawn from coffe e shop, somebody who was in a pub and the friends of the Premier, Mr. Kozminski, Mr. overheard a discussion. Thorsteinson, from the members of the Conservative Party who obviously would be He mentions Felix Holtmarm. I have no friends of ministers and acquaintances and from idea what that reference is. Mr. Holtmann the senior staff of government. Is there not ultimately went and gave a statement about a something rotten in the state of Denmark, and is conversation that he overheard at a pub between the Premier not concerned aboutthat? two individuals, never repeated that conversation to me or anybody I know, Mr. Chairman, so this Mr. Filmon: Just addressing the comments of is supposed to demonstrate somehow that the Leader of the Opposition, firstly, and he got everybody knew? it wrong again today, as he got it wrong when he made his allegations about the appointment of The fact of the matter is that this is what Mr. Mr. Benson. Monnin said: "I find no evidence that any elected PC member, any member of the Party's He said the person who was ratsmg the executive, nor any other member of the Party's money fo r the party should not then go into a management committee on which Thorsteinson senior staff position. Mr. Benson did not raise sat was aware of or aided and abetted in either any money fo r the party. He was the chartered the plot or the cover-up. accountant who was the treasurer, who did the books fo r the party. He did not go out and "As far as the cover-up is concerned, it is the knock on doors raising money fo r the party. handy work of three individuals. There is no evidence to suggest that anyone else knew." He had it wrong when he made his allegations before publicly and in this Legis­ Seventy-two people were interviewed by the lature, and he still has it wrong. He does not investigators. Thirty-seven of them appeared in understand the difference between the head of public session under Mr. Monnin's inquiry, and PC Manitoba Fund, the fundraising arm, and the he finds there is no evidence to suggest that treasurer, the person who keeps track of the anyone else knew. If you want to read it-I books. So having somebody who happened to mean, he speculates as to why. I mean, these perform that function fo r the party then perform people were obviously embarrassed by what that function in government, he obviously had they did. They would have lost their careers demonstrated competence. The member referred over talking about it, so it became a completely to his competence as a chartered accountant. buried issue and secret, that it took this inquiry That is precisely why he was I believed an to get out. appropriate choice as the secretary of Treasury Board. That is exactly who is in that position. It As painful as it has been, Mr. Chairman, I is the bean counter. It is not the money raiser. can tell the member opposite that I believe that we, all of us collectively, have learned from this The other aspect to it, Mr. Chairman, is that process. The members opposite can laugh as Mr. Monnin indicates, nobody, nobody because they think this is just a political issue, outside of the group of five whom he names in the member fo r Thompson (Mr. Ashton), but this his report was aware of this. This was not is an issue that is as serious- something that was the subject of discussion, either socially or in a business or government Point of Order sense. I mean, I will read it fo r the member opposite. I mean, we are ploughing over the Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): same ground that many, many lawyers, that On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson. I think it many, many very learned people spent nine is only appropriate if the Premier is to make months on, nine months interviewing 72 people, comments about my laughing. Indeed I was anybody who had any knowledge whatsoever of laughing at the Premier's statements which I 3138 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 continue to fe el Jack a fair amount of credibility something wrong there. I knew there was on this issue, not at the seriousness of the issue something wrong there. The Premier knew there itself. I know we often get into this back and was something wrong there. How could fo rth, but fo r the Premier to get into that, I think, somebody of very modest means donate more he is just indicating once again how little he has money to their political party than the learned from the experience. I think we saw this millionaires' club across the way or even some in Question Period today, by the way, Mr. ofthe people of means here on this side? Surely Chairperson, when this Premier would not even to goodness something was rotten in the state of ask a question about the conduct of his minister. Denmark. So, yes, I was laughing but laughing at the lack of credibility of this Premier. Monnin says that still not all the evidence is before us. He is not convinced, and we are not * (1530) convinced. The public is not convinced. I can tell you when I listen to people out there, they Mr. Filmon: Same point of order, Mr. Chair, say: give me a break. The Premier hires a the lack of credibility of course is demonstrated person, puts them in a position of trust. He hires by the members opposite who, having called fo r another person, puts them in a position of trust. a full, complete and thorough public inquiry, did He selects the campaign manager. He selects the not have the courage of their own convictions to treasurer. He selects the committee of the PC state any of the innuendo on the record and to be Party, his best friends whom he golfs with and cross-examined so that they could continue to dines with, or involved at the other end of use innuendo and fa lsehoods in the public debate moving money under the radar screen over to over this issue. Mr. Chairman, I went before the aboriginal candidates in other communities. inquiry. I went under oath in public session and You know if one person is involved, people was cross-examined fo r six hours so that I could might give you the benefit of the doubt. Two, answer everybody truthfully on this issue, unlike three, fo ur, five, six, seven? the member fo r Thompson who will prefer to deal in innuendo and falsehood as opposed to You know, you keep saying to people: I being honest and truthful. knew nothing. The public is pretty smart about these things. There is the inquiry and then there The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): The is the inquiry. The public is pretty wise at the honourable member fo r Thompson did not have end of the day, pretty wise. Judge Monnin was a point of order. So we will carry on. pretty wise, because he left himself some statement when the Premier says 75 persons *** testified, blah, blah, blah. Do not forget, his own principal staffhad to change his testimony three Mr. Doer: Mr. Chairperson, we also know that times. There might be a fo urth version; we do Monnin stated a number of things. We have not know. stated those and we will restate them, page 16 and others, but he did say that, even in concluding his report, he was not convinced that The chief accountant fo r the Conservative he had all the evidence that may be there. We Party, a person held in responsibility fo r did not have all the evidence when we raised the allocating the private liquor licences, changed questions in 1995, obviously. We did not have his testimony after the Premier testified. all the evidence when we raised the questions in Testimony changed as evidence was produced. the House in 1999. We knew that there was It changed and changed and changed again. So something wrong. I mean, we know when there it speaks to the culture in the Premier's Office. It is that much money that goes to somebody in a speaks to the fact that nobody stood up starting campaign. More money was donated by Darryl with the Premier, because I do not believe fo r a Sutherland to his own campaign than the moment that the Premier who knows something Premier donated to the Conservative Party. I about campaign finances-the person from the - mean you have to be either not wanting to find Native Voice candidate donated more money to out or relatively stupid to not know that there is his campaign than some of the wealthiest June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3139 members of this Legislature donated to their own wrong with the kind of-well, you know I argued political party. two years in 1997 there was something wrong. I do not understand why the Premier did not see it I have never understood why Elections then, does not see it now. I am going to fo llow it Manitoba did not know then what we knew that up with a fu rther question to the Premier. something was wrong, somebody passed some money to this individual. I do not know why the When we raised the issue of Jules Benson, Premier with all his years in politics did not when we raised the issue of Mr. Benson, the know something was wrong. How many people Premier testified that he would refer the matter does the Premier know over the years that to the Civil Service Commission. Did he refer it donated that much money to their own to the Civil Service Commission? individual campaign? How many people of modest means would donate thousands of dollars Mr. Filmon: The member is going to have to to their own campaign? So I ask the Premier, amplify what he asked to be referred to the Civil was he not curious about that fact after there Service Commission. were allegations in the Interlake? Was he not curious in 1995 with his political knowledge? Mr. Doer: During the Premier's testimony, we You are not a stupid person, you are raised questions about breaches of The Civil knowledgeable. You are politically experienced. Service Act dealing with the civil servant You have been in council. You have been in the involved in financial matters in an election cabinet fo r the Legislature, in cabinet, in campaign pursuant to the numbers of cheques opposition. issued and dealt with by a civil servant who was involved specifically in the campaign and also in Can he honestly say to me that some alarms a so-called civil service meritorious position. did not go off when he heard that Darryl Did the Premier refer that matter to the Civil Sutherland had donated thousands of dollars to Service Commission as he testified, and did the his own campaign? Did he not think, based on Civil Service Commission investigate this? This his experience, something was wrong here and was after the Premier testified and before Mr. the truth had to be revealed, or was it the culture Benson resigned. to hear no evil, see no evil or speak no evil? * (1540) Mr. Filmon: Mr. Chairman, I did not know Darryl Sutherland. I had no knowledge of who Mr. Filmon: I think the member opposite will he was or what he did, and did not ever make it have to be more specific. I am not familiar with my business to find out because I was confident all of the things that he is alleging were in the inquiry that was being done by Elections discussed and what comments were made. Manitoba. I believed that they had the ability and the power and the wherewithal to get to the Mr. Doer: Well, the Premier in his testimony bottom of it. Once they did their investigation testified that he would-he was asked by legal and made their report, I was satisfied that they counsel at the inquiry whether he had had done what was appropriate. I have had investigated the potential breaches of The Civil countless, countless people from positions of Service Act dealing with the issues of political responsibility who know this Legislature, parties, monies, and civil servants. He said he including fo rmer Premiers, say you have every would refer that matter to the Civil Service reason to believe in the investigation of Commission. I am just asking whether his Elections Manitoba. Why would you have such testimony under oath was fo llowed, and can he a statutory body set up with the powers it has for report back to this Legislature on the results of investigation if you did not fo llow their advice that commitment he made under oath? and investigation? Mr. Filmon: At the time we did not know all of Mr. Doer: So I come back to the situation then. the details of Mr. Benson's involvement, and Is there not something rotten in the state of obviously we wanted to get more information Denmark? Is there not something fundamentally through the course of the inquiry, and then 3140 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

judgments could be made. So I do not think I breach of The Civil Service Act, you are - made a specific referral to the Civil Service supposed to send them there, not to satisfy Commission, knowing that Mr. Monnin was yourself one way or the other. You could say going to be brining up more information and Mr. that under oath. You did not say that under oath. Benson had not yet testified, so we did not have You said: I will send that to the Civil Service the full verification of what his role was. Commission.

Mr. Doer: Well, the Premier made a specific So I want to know why you did not do that, commitment that he would take the questions why you say it based on questions raised to you raised about the breach of The Civil Service Act about the breach of The Civil Service Act, why to the Civil Service Commission. The Premier you did not send it to the Civil Service made that commitment. He did not say that I Commission. Was the commission, and it is would leave that to the inquiry, that I would only apparent now, was it misled by you on your leave that to Justice Monnin, that I would leave testimony? that to a future date; he made the commitment under oath. This is the first time I have heard Mr. Filmon: I do not have any information, and now that he did not take it to the Civil Service until I review my comments before the inquiry, I Commission. I want to know why he did not, cannot really respond any fu rther. why he would say it under oath and why he did not fo llow it up, because it was about fiveweeks Mr. Doer: Who is responsible for fo llowing up later that Mr. Benson then resigned, again with on the commitments the Premier made in his diffe rent interpretations, but I will get to that in a testimony? Was it the Clerk of the Cabinet or minute. the Premier directly himself?

Why did he not send it to the Civil Service Mr. Filmon: Mr. Chairman, I will take the Commission the next day as he committed responsibility fo r them. I am not suggesting that himself to? That is a pretty strong statement it is anybody's responsibility. I am just saying under oath to give a commitment; it is even that I want to review what is being alleged and stronger, I dare say, than Hansard. what actions I may or may not have taken.

Mr. Filmon: As I say, I know that I would have Mr. Doer: So you are saying that this matter wanted to have had verification of his position never went to the Civil Service Commission from his testimony before the inquiry before afteryou testifiedand before he resigned? going to the Civil Service Commission on the matter. Mr. Fil mon: I am saying that I have to investigate to report back. Mr. Doer: Well, the verification would come from the Civil Service Commission. You were Mr. Doer: With Mr. Gajadharsingh who was asked specific questions dealing with The Civil the contact with the Civil Service Commission Service Act, the prohibitions of civil servants after it was raised as an issue? Who contacted being involved directly in money matters during the Civil Service Commission? Was it not the campaigns, and in answer to a question under Clerk of Cabinet? Is that not the appropriate oath, you said you would take that matter to the connection, the Premier to the Clerk of the Civil Service Commission. You did not say I Cabinet to the Civil Service Commis-sioner, Mr. want verification before I take it to the Civil Hart? Is that not the way it would work and has Service Commission. worked in the past?

You had been asked questions based on Mr. Filmon: That might be one of the ways. evidence, and you said that that would go to the suppose it could be directly from my office. We Civil Service Commission. You are not would have to investigate. supposed to be the judge and jury when a matter Mr. Doer: is before the Civil Service Commission. If there If the Premier makes a commitment - are issues to be verified or not, pursuant to a to take something to the Civil Service June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3141

Commission, it would nonnally flow not from out. I mean, this is not something that is sort of­ the Premier himself to the Civil Service we are not talking paper clips in the Premier's Commission but from the Clerk of Cabinet, who office here. We are talking a major commit­ is the senior deputy minister of government, to ment, we believe, that he made in the inquiry, the appropriate deputy minister, in this case the and it would have-! do not imagine there are too equivalent of the deputy minister in an many of the Premier's staff he is sending for independent position. Civil Service investigations. One would hope not. Can somebody find out, somebody Surely the Premier is not saying that the monitoring these questions, and can we find out? Civil Service Commissioner sits in his office and It is just a simple phone call away, I would works by some kind of mythical osmosis in suggest, to find out whether that, in fact, tenns of what should be referred to them or not. happened. We should have a yes or no answer. There is a chain of protocol from the Premier If it happened, yes. If it did not, no. We are not through his senior staff to the independent Civil asking for the Book of Revelations. We just Service Commission. Is that not the case? Is want to know whether it happened or not. there not a protocol to this? It is not up to the Civil Service Commission to be present in all Mr. Filmon: We will fo llow up on it and report rooms, at all inquiries that deal with matters of back, Mr. Chainnan. the public service, to be aware of these things. There has to be a fo llow-up, is there not? As I Mr. Doer: Who fired Jules Benson? recall it, with the questions raised with the immigrant issues, with civil servants potentially Mr. Filmon: Mr. Chainnan, I have a letter from or allegedly working at one private enterprise at Mr. Benson indicating that he was retiring from the same time they were working in the public, government. the Premier said he would refer it to the Civil Service Commission through the Clerk of Mr. Doer: Can the Premier indicate what the Cabinet. I am almost going by memory now in severance would be fo r Mr. Benson when he the press release, but that is my recollection of it. retired? It would make sense to me, because that would make sense. That is the nonnal pattern. So Mr. Filmon: My understanding is that he was would this not be the nonnal pattern of events awarded the standard civil service allocation of that the Premier would refer a matter to the Civil 15 weeks. Service Commission through his Clerk of Cabinet? Mr. Doer: There was always a speculation about how much or how little the pension * (1550) entitlement would be with the so-called preferential pension plan for Mr. Benson. Can Mr. Filmon: That might be a nonnal pattern, the Premier indicate today what was the pension Mr. Chainnan, but I have already said that I need payout pursuant to the agreement agreed upon in to review what was said and what commitments the early '90s with Mr. Benson? were made and investigate what was done to fo llow up on that. Mr. Filmon: As the member probably under­ stands, he did not get any payout of pension Mr. Doer: So the matter never went to the Civil upon retirement. During the course of his Service Commissioner; questions of Mr. employment, fo r each year that he was Benson's alleged breach never went to the Civil employed, he got up to a maximum of $13,500 Service Commission. You said that earlier. per year contributed towards an RRSP. Mr. Filmon: I indicated earlier I cannot confinn or deny that until I do an investigation. Mr. Doer: Can the Premier indicate then what was the total employer payout or the taxpayers' Mr. Doer: Is it possible for somebody just to payout to that pension plan in the years that Mr. phone the Civil Service Commissioner and find Benson worked for the Province of Manitoba? 3142 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Chairman, I do not have that Michael Deeter not only got all of that money information. Mr. Benson was an employee of but also got a contract awarded to them as part the Department of Finance, so it would be in of their severance package, so he studied the their Estimates, and they would be able to get taxes that were going to be able to be raised by that for the member. the government, another $55,000 contract, all those kinds of things. If the member wants to Mr. Doer: The Order-in-Council conditions start making a fuss, he can talk about all the that provided fo r the pensions were approved by things. I will talk about all the things that the the Premier in cabinet. They were superior to New Democrats did for their special fr iends and the civil service employer paid pension plan. political operatives who they hired in govern­ We identified that with Mr. McFadyen's ment. If he wants to take the number of years conditions in the last set of discussions. So this and multiply them by the approximate total of is a plan that the Premier indicated was $13,500, he can figure it out. I do not have it in applicable to three people, approved by the my Estimates, so I cannot get the detail fo r him. Premier and cabinet, the contract of which I believe was available through the Clerk of Mr. Doer: Well, we will multiply $13,500 by Cabinet to get the conditions of that when this the number of years he worked, and we will take was revealed that no longer were the specific that as the amount. I know the Premier is conditions going to be made available by Order­ sensitive about this, and we have raised it before. in-Council. So, you know, this government has But he should not be surprised that we are talked a lot about public disclosure and raising the issue of the pension issue. We raised information, et cetera, et cetera, why will the it from the year it became public that that, in Premier not give us the amount of money? Are fact, information was being withheld from the they embarrassed by the significance of it? I just public. You know, that is something we have want to know why we cannot get that figure. It raised every year in his Estimates because it is a seems to me to be pretty routine. policy decision made by the Premier, approved - by cabinet fo r three individuals. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Chairman, you know, we have been exceedingly co-operative, flexible in * (1600) providing every bit of information, even to the extent of going through all this discussion about These were 0/C appointments, all of them. somebody who was not on my staff. He was a The last time I looked, the Premier is responsible senior staff member of government. He was a fo r Order in Council appointments as the chair cabinet secretary fo r the Treasury Board. He is of cabinet, and we consider these questions fa ir an employee of the Department of Finance. I ball. I know the Premier does not, but that is mean the member does not come here and ask why we are asking them and we do not me what is the pension that was paid out last apologize fo r it. year, the pension allocation that was paid out last year for the former Deputy Minister of Finance A further question to the Premier, Mr. because he knows it is not in my Estimates. It is Benson in testimony stated that it was made very not in my departmental information. I am telling clear to him that he should retire. Was the Clerk him that it was a maximum of $13,500 a year. of Cabinet passing on his own view that he He can calculate the number of years that he was should retire, or was he passing on the view of employed in the position. It was probably his employer, the Premier, in that decision? something in the range of about six or seven years, and you can multiply that out and figure Mr. Filmon: The matter was discussed directly out the total maximum entitlement that the by the Clerk of the Executive Council and the individual got. former secretary of Treasury Board, Mr. Benson. Prior to his discussions with Mr. Benson, the I know that the member opposite when the Clerk discussed with me various options that he NDP were in government paid out hundreds of believed were appropriate to be discussed with thousands of dollars of pension allocations and Mr. Benson, and Mr. Benson chose to retire. I - severance pay to individuals. People like cannot go into the detail of personnel matters June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3143 being discussed privately between two Mr. Filmon: The Clerk of the Executive individuals, but I think it suffices to say that the Council was called into the briefing by the legal Clerk did not choose to discuss options that counsel fo r the Conservative Party, since it would not have been acceptable to me. So the involved a matter to do with a senior civil various options that were canvassed, all of which servant, so he could receive the information and were acceptable to me, and certainly Mr. briefingfr om the legal counsel. Benson's decision ultimately to retire was acceptable. Mr. Doer: So the Premier and the Clerk of Cabinet were made aware of the changed Mr. Chairperson in the Chair testimony of Mr. McFarlane. The Premier would have approved the action of the Clerk of Cabinet Mr. Doer: So the Premier approved of the with Mr. Benson prior to his meeting with Mr. discussions that Mr. Leitch was going to have Benson? with Mr. Benson prior to those discussions taking place. Mr. Filmon: Yes, I approved of the Clerk of the Executive Council meeting with Mr. Benson. Yes, I approved of a range of diffe rent options Mr. Filmon: Yes, I approved of his sitting that were to be considered in the discussion. down and having discussions with Mr. Benson Yes, I accepted Mr. Benson's letter of retirement. as to his status with the government and, yes, there were a variety of diffe rent options that Mr. Doer: As part of those options that were would have been acceptable to me and, yes, discussed, if Mr. Benson did not retire, was the ultimately I accepted his letter of retirement. option then to dismiss him? Mr. Doer: Did the Premier meet with legal counsel, and was he apprised between the date Mr. Filmon: I am sure that the member he testified and the date Mr. Benson retired on opposite knows full well that, in matters of the changed testimony of Mr. McFarlane relating personnel, these matters, these discussions, are to the financial matters? all done in confidence. It is not appropriate under any circumstances fo r us to declare or to Mr. Filmon: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I was talk about publicly personnel matters in this apprised by legal counsel of the changes in Mr. detail. McFarlane's statement to the inquiry. That was prior to Mr. Benson's letter of retirement. Mr. Doer: I know the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) has some questions for the First Minister. I will certainly allow those to proceed. Mr. Doer: So, based on the information given to the Premier, the Premier fe lt it would be untenable fo r the government still to have Mr. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I do have a Benson as secretary of Treasury Board, given number of questions that I was wanting to ask of the changed testimony of Mr. McFarlane. There the Premier, given this is the first opportunity to was a cause-and-effe ct in terms of the evidence, put on the record, or at least get the Premier on the advice of counsel, and the status of Mr. the record with a number of concerns that I have Benson. that are at least in part budget related and, in other parts, not. Mr. Filmon: I think it is accurate to say that I accepted Mr. Benson's letter of retirement. But I wanted to start off, if I may, Mr. Chairperson, by referring to something that I Mr. Doer: Well, did the Clerk of Cabinet meet often do within my constituency. That is to with the legal counsel, or was it the Premier who canvass fe edback and opinions on a wide variety met with legal counsel? Was the legal counsel of issues. Generally speaking, I believe the of the Conservative Party briefing the political support in terms of response I get is fairly head of government, being the Premier, as decent, in excess of 10 percent of homes that I opposed to the Clerk of Cabinet? represent. 3144 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

In the '97-98 survey that I did, one of the 23.1 percent fo r property tax. Now, that survey - questions that I had in the survey was: In order went out through the community newspaper, a to reduce our property taxes, should the much wider spectrum of people, other school provincial government gradually take over the divisions, for example, than the constituents I financing of education through general revenues, represent. which means that it would have to come up with money from somewhere else. Health care is But what I find, Mr. Chairperson, is that funded through general revenues. The response there is just a huge undercurrent of people who to that particular question was that 49.1 percent are really upset with the issue of property tax said yes, 28.8 percent said no, and a small and the amount of property tax that has to be percentage had no opinion on the issue. paid. A big part of that, no doubt, is because of that continual reliance of funding education on Mr. Chair, I know that the issue of property the property tax, and that brings me to the next tax has been somewhat put to the side or put on point of whether it is offloading or the freezes or the back burner by this government over the cutbacks in public education that has pushed up years. In fact, many would argue, including more of the school division levy onto the myself, that the only time the government has property tax. I have argued in the past that in given any attention to the property tax issue was particular Winnipeg No. 1 or the constituents in when they had the clawback a number of years part that I represent today are paying a ago. disproportionate amount of their fair share of property tax because the government has chosen Mr. Chairperson, I represent an area which I to virtually ignore this issue. believe wants to see the government deal with the issue of property tax, and it is with great In fa ct, Mr. Chairperson, government was disappointment that I found that this particular able to con, I would suggest to you, the official

budget did not deal with the property tax issue opposition into supporting their budget. I - other than to say we are going to have this believe in most part they supported it because Lower Tax Commission, of course. the official opposition did not have the political courage to vote against this budget, because it is, One of the results of that is that I posed to in fact, a bad budget, the way in which it tries to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer), portray the financing of the government or the because I think it was appropriate for the way in which it tries to deal with the whole issue Minister of Finance also to be brought into this of tax fairness. When I look at it, I do not have discussion, as to what sort of background, what any problem justifying to my constituents that I has the government been doing, in particular that voted- particular department been doing to address the property tax issue? How has this government Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I hate to gauged that particular issue? I was really quite interrupt the honourable member for Inkster disappointed in terms of, in my opinion, the when he is on a roll, but could I ask the two governmenthas not sought out public opinion on members who are carrying on this conversation that particular issue. to do so in the loge. I am having great difficulty hearing him. Thank you. The honourable * (1610) member for Inkster to continue.

In one of the North Times, my col league Mr. Lamoureux: I bring it up because it is one from The Maples and I put fo rward a of the primary reasons when I go and knock on a questionnaire. We did not get anywhere near the door whenever the election might be, a major type of response I would have liked to have issue is that of taxation. People do not mind gotten in terms of numbers that I am used to having to pay their taxes. What is important, when I do my own constituency surveys, but Mr. Chairperson, is that those taxes and the level having said that, what I found interesting was of taxation is fa ir. This government, over the

that 23.8 percent of a value was attached to years, has not demonstrated at all a sense of - personal income tax being reduced, compared to fairness in the way in which it is collecting its June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3145 taxes, and that is a primary reason why I could may be wrong. I had done some research for the not vote fo r this particular budget. debate that I had at the MAST convention and I thought that every province still had some I do take some pride in that fact, Mr. portion. But it ranges, and in Saskatchewan next Chairperson, because I do believe it is important door, 60 percent comes off the property tax. to provide alternative solutions to what it is the Now, it is not all through a special levy at the government is doing. One of the issues that I local level. In many cases, the province does as believe that the government needs to be much we do with our Education Support Levy, takes it more proactive on is the property tax issue. My off all the properties across the province, puts it question to the Premier is: how would the through a kind of equalization-type exercise, and Premier explain to my constituents and to the then distributes it to the various school boards. constituents of Manitoba why over the years this government has constantly ignored the issue of If you really look at it, there is a lot of overreliance of funding education on our discussion about how much has changed in the property tax? Why over the years this last while. In 1981, the provincial government government has ignored the need to address and from its general revenues contributed to the alleviate property tax relief? Its priority tends to school divisions of the province 54 percent of all be personal income tax and there is some of their costs. By 1988, when we took office, validity to reducing provincial income tax, but it that had slipped to 52 percent and now it sits at is negligent, I believe, to ignore the property tax. just over 49 percent. So essentially it has varied I would be interested in knowing the Premier's a little bit, but it hasremained around 50 percent response to that. being taken from the general revenues. Mr. Filmon: Well, Mr. Chairman, there is a whole variety of issues surrounding that and one Where there was a big shift was that, in the is, of course, responsibility fo r raising the money days of the New Democratic government of the should vest with those who make the decisions '80s, they kept taking more and more off the on how to spend the money. Certainly in the property tax through increasing the ESL over case of municipal governments, the cities, towns, that period of six and a half years. We have not villages and municipalities make decisions on increased the ESL. In fact, it is virtually at the how they are going to spend their money. This same level that it was 11 years ago, but, government over the last decade has probably obviously, local school boards, through their been more generous in its transfers to municipal special levies, have continued to increase their governments than any other province in Canada. local levies. I would venture that that is able to be supported by everything that we have done. This does a number things. I mean, the member opposite probably knows, if he has done Principally, of course, because we have the research, that there is quite a considerable provincial-municipal tax-sharing arrangements variance in the local mill rates, and it obviously which increases dramatically, and this year alone reflects either the pressures that school boards it increased in its transfers to the municipalities fe el at the local level or the priorities that they by $71 million, I am informed. More par­ have chosen at the local level. There are many, ticularly, large increases onto the municipalities many programs, from early childhood education from VLT revenues and we are the only to before- and after-school programs, to fo od province that still gives a portion of VLT support programs, to all sorts of areas in which revenues to the municipal governments. This there have been decisions made at the local level has resulted in very significant increases during to do something special through the school the period of time over the last five years most system. This means that there really is a reason provinces in Canada have dramatically reduced why we have local school boards to make local their transfers to the municipal governments. judgments and local priority choices. That, to More particularly in the area of education, it is me, is why we have the whole business of not uncommon for some portion of the burden of locally elected school boards; it is to make those school costs to be taken off the property tax. I kinds of judgments. 3146 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

- * (1620) Mr. Lamoureux: I do want to spend some time on this particular issue, and I will tell you why. In the time when we were getting massive It has been an issue fo r me virtually since I have reductions in transfer payments from Ottawa, the been elected. I like to believe that I have been Liberal government in Ottawa, we tried as much somewhat successful in terms of influencing our as we could to live within our means. We do not party's position on this issue. That is going to believe you should spend money that you do not come out in due course, but suffice to say for have. So, as a result of all of that, we tried to now a part of that platform is going to see the apply as much discipline as we could to our provincial levy that the province puts on the spending in all areas of government, including residential property tax will be proposed to our transfers to the various different areas of disappear. We would be, in fact, committed to expenditure over which we have no direct getting rid of that residential provincial levy on control, but we are a major contributing partner, the education property tax. I say that because at including education. the end of the discussion on this, I would like to think that the Premier, who has influence from within his own party obviously and in the In that area, many, many school boards election platform, ideally I would like to hear across the province chose to supplement what him say something today on this very important they perceived to be a lack of funding transfers issue. from us by increasing local levies very substantially. That has taken place. They I want to address it in a diffe rent way. If obviously have to take some responsibility for you happen to live in, let us say, Tyndall Park in those decisions, and we as a province obviously a house of a value of approximately $80,000, take responsibility fo r the decisions that we very reasonable, very realistic, then you compare made. In the end, there has to be some local that house. You take a house of the same value responsibility. You just take areas that are - and you put it into a St. James School Division, constantly a source of discussion, complaint and as opposed to a Winnipeg School Division No. 1, conflict, such as municipal taxes within the city the same market value of, let us say, $80,000. of Winnipeg. You know, when you start to The person that happens to live in Tyndall Park examine this, that the City of Winnipeg's pay is going to have to pay, I can assure the Premier, rates are higher than the pay rates fo r at least $300 net only because they happen to be comparable positions fo r either the provincial in Winnipeg School Division No. 1. Well, in the government or the fe deral government or for any past the arguments would be, well, look, you Crown corporation. They are the highest of all have a school division, they want to provide the the public service areas of Manitoba, and you services, and so forth. have to say: do we take responsibility fo r that as a province? Well, obviously, we do not and we Well, you know, that is a simple answer, but should not, and we have to keep that principle in it is not a fair answer. I would argue that it is a mind that local decision makers, locally elected poor answer for the government to be giving. decision makers have to take responsibility for Why? Because, Mr. Chairperson, if you take a their local decisions to a great extent. look at the demands fo r, let us say, a Winnipeg School Division No. 1 and you compare it to the So to just simply say that it is all the fault of demands of a St. James School Division, you the provincial government I do not think is fa ir will find that it is actually quite different. For or valid. It begs the question as to how we example, you take a look at special needs. This address this. I mean, if the province is going to government wiped out the special needs Level I, take over all the funding, then obviously the where it was tied to individual students. Instead, debate should ensue as to whether or not you what they said is that instead of tying it to an have other people who make the decisions as to individual student, what we will do is we will how to spend it. That is the case with regional spread it across the board, let us say, 5 percent. health authorities, where they are solely As a result of that, whether you are School - appointed by the province in recognition that the Division No. I or St. James or whatever other province is the sole funder. school division, it is assumed that you have the June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3147 same number per capita, that is, of special I * (1630) children in your area. First and fo remost, the one thing that I do Well, that is not true. We know that that is not appreciate about the Liberal position is that not the case; that there is a higher percentage of they somehow let people believe that they will special needs children in some school divisions eliminate this tax or massively reduce this tax on compared to other. Yet, they all get the same property, without telling them that in order to do percentage. Then you take a look at special so, they have to raise other taxes. There is only needs II or special needs III. We finance, one taxpayer. Basically, depending on how far through provincial Department of Education, they go with it-I mean, if it is just taking off the only a percentage of the need of resources that ESL, they are going to have to raise at least I are necessary in order to accommodate special think it is one and a half points on the sales tax needs II, special needs III. or 5 points on the personal income tax rate.

Now, if you say to people we are going to That is just one example of how the costs for have to put your sales tax up to 8 percent, then Winnipeg School Division No. I are higher than, that is being honest, or if you say we are going let us say, another school division. Yet the to have to raise your personal income tax rates constituent that I happen to represent that lives by 5 percent, that is being honest. But just to tell in that $80,000 home is having to pay at least them you are going to take down the ESL on $300 more net because he or she happens to live residential property tax without telling them the in Tyndall Park. I believe that we are doing an consequences, I do not think that is a very fair injustice by not addressing this issue. It goes thing to do. So we will discuss that, obviously, beyond just me, the MLA for Inkster. I on the campaign trail, and we will talk about understand that even the member fo r River whether or not the public really fullyappreciates Heights (Mr. Radcliffe) has homes that live in the Liberal position of raising taxes, in effect, in Winnipeg School Division No. I. What shocks order to do something else fo r them. That is one me is we have individuals like the member fo r thing. Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) who I have yet to hear raise that issue, the question of taxation The second thing, of course, is this whole fairness. I find it disgraceful the way in which issue of inequities. You know, the one thing we expect Winnipeg I residents having to pay an about the property tax is that it is an ad valorem unfair percentage of education dollars compared tax. It is not reflective of what services you get to others in the province. out of the system. It is based on taking taxes away in proportion to your perceived ability to I look to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to pay. Of course, that is where you run into acknowledge the fact that the resident in Tyndall difficulty, is perceptions are not always realities. Park is paying more than their fair share today as a result, compared to someone in the St. James I have been going door to door a great deal School Division or the Transcona School in the last number of weeks in a variety of Division, not because of just the school division different parts of the city and the province. I but because there are other inequities that need have not been in the member's area yet, but to be addressed. That is what I appeal to the perhaps I will get a chance in the next little Premier to recognize that there is significant while. But I get people talking to me about all room for improvement, and by recognizing that, sorts of inequities in the property taxsystem. give us reason to believe that the government, after II years, is prepared to attempt to address You get the case of retired seniors who say: that issue. Why is any portion of my property tax going to pay for education because my kids are already Mr. Filmon: Well, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate grown up and they no longer use the system? Or a number of things about the member's questions you get some who say: I am single and I have and concerns, and I want to just say not the least no kids. Why should any portion of my property of which is raising a very interesting topic. tax go to pay fo r education? Then there is the 3148 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

- situation between diffe rent communities. The than the value of the house and lot in Point member opposite talks about the inequity Douglas or in the inner city. What I am asking between Winnipeg No. 1 and St. James. Well, the Premier to acknowledge is houses and lots, how does he fe el about a homeowner in Tuxedo property of equal value, in diffe rent areas of the who pays $10,000 in property tax versus one in city. That is what I am asking him to recognize. the inner city of Winnipeg who pays $350 in property tax and gets the same service, the same I put the question very specific to the service? He gets garbage picked up once a Premier: does the Premier acknowledge that a week; he gets the streets cleaned once a month in house of $80,000 in Tyndall Park compared to a the summer; he gets snow removed when it house of $80,000 value in St. James, that the snows, but he does not get any more service. house in Tyndall Park is paying substantially And so he says: what a terrible inequity fo r me more, "substantially" being defined as approxi­ to have to pay all this money for the education mately $300 more in property tax because it is in costs or the municipal costs and I get no more Winnipeg School Division No. 1. Just service than the homeowner in the inner city or acknowledge that. the homeowner in Inkster. Mr. Filmon: have not got any more Once you get on to that, it is a very slippery information in front of me, but I will take the slope of trying to make equity out ·of taxation. member's word fo r it, but reality is that the two So the real principle is that those essentially who school boards would argue that they give have more pay more. So those who have bigger, different levels of services. I have heard more valuable homes pay more; those who earn Winnipeg No. I talk about them doing their more pay more; those who spend more pay breakfast programs and their nursery schools, more. That is really how most of our taxes are their IB programs and all those diffe rent things. set up. To suggest to somebody the simplistic I live in an area that does not have an answer that the easy way to get around it is to International Baccalaureate program in any of its take it offthe property, you have got to also give schools, Assiniboine South. They have chosen them the other side of the coin, which is, oh, by not to, recognizing that students from that the way, we are going to raise your sales tax by division may then go by bus to another division 1 percent or we are going to raise your personal where there is an International Baccalaureate income taxes by 5 percent in order to do that. program, but they argue they are giving what Then I think you have a very different picture to they think is the appropriate level of services to discuss. the people in our area. Winnipeg No. 1 will boast about the fact that they are giving far more That is why I think it is the sort of thing that services than any other division in the province, is appropriate to be looked at by something like and that is why the diffe rence is, not because of the Lower Tax Commission because they then any taxation adjustments that we are making. It will be able to tell people honestly, not just from is a choice as to what they put into the mix of a political standpoint, that if you take it off here, services that they offer and therefore how much you have to put it back there, because we still they get offthe levy, the local levy fo r education need that amount of money in order to run our schools and our municipal governments. Mr. Lamoureux: The Premier is, in part, quite wrong in his assertion. I use the example of Mr. Lamoureux: I do not have the confidence special needs. Five percent, your government that the Premier has in the Lower Tax has said, 5 percent, no matter where in the Commission, quite frankly. When the Premier province, a school division is going to get, per addressed it, he said: well, you take a house capita. I would argue that Winnipeg 1 per capita here in Tuxedo in which they pay $10,000 a year has far more special needs Level I. Special compared to an inner-city home where they needs II, the amount of resources that the might pay $350 a year. He is missing one very province provides, does not come nowhere near valuable point, and that is that the house in close to the actual cost of providing special II - Tuxedo and the value of that particular house needs, and the same thing fo r special III, so what and lot, Mr. Chairperson, is substantially more I am saying to the Premier is that, yes, in part June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3149 there are diffe rent services that school divisions longer get support fo r aboriginal peoples living do provide. Sometimes it is an advantage, off reserve fo r any of their social needs. That sometimes it is a disadvantage, and I will used to be a 100 percent responsibility of the acknowledge that, but in tum I would look to the fe deral government for their health, their Premier to also acknowledge that many of those education, their social services. Now, we only inequities, like the special needs, cause the get the standard transfers through the CHST on a school division to have to have more money as a per capita basis. result. Other school divisions would not necessarily need it. Our estimate is $30 million a year that we are short of funding that we used to get for those If there is a higher demand fo r breakfast people who now are no longer being paid fo r by programs, because I am sure the Premier would the fe deral government for their social service acknowledge or agree that it is pretty tough to needs. That is a lot of money, and if we got learn on an empty stomach. Everyone has said more from the fe deral government, we might be that before. If you have to provide nutritional able to do more to address those specific things. programs, and we are all better off as a result of ESL funding has been dramatically reduced by providing those programs, society is better off this fe deral Liberal government, used to put in a by having those programs, well, why then should lot more money to address those needs. The it be just Winnipeg 1 taxpayers have to fo ot a government does not anymore, so if the member higher percentage of the bill? opposite wants to really help out in this situation, I would say he should pick up the phone. He * (1640) should talk to his colleagues in Ottawa, and tell them that the Manitoba government could do So, I am not looking for the Premier to and would like to do more for the people in his resolve the problem tomorrow. What I am area by way of these special needs programming looking fo r the Premier to do is show some areas, whether they be ESL or whether they be acknowledgment that the problem does exist. services for those who are now living offreserve That is what I am hoping to get from the and in our inner city communities. With their Premier. help we could do a much better job.

Mr. Filmon: I know that there are diffe rent Mr. Lamoureux: Not to disappoint the challenges and diffe rent needs in every area of Premier, I can assure the Premier that I do our public schools in this province. There are considerable lobbying of my fe deral counter­ concentrations of specific issues that are more parts. There are a number of areas which I prevalent in some areas than others. disagree with, and I continue to lobby. Having said that, I think that it could be a lot worse in I know, fo r instance, that one of our biggest Ottawa. It is the party which I choose to support. difficulties and challenges is meeting the special I do believe that they are a lot better than the needs of our aboriginal populations that have alternatives. I say that because I want to put that moved off the reserves and into the cities and behind. I want to focus more so on what this towns and villages and are concentrated in government can in fact be doing. Even if the particular areas. Many of the challenges that we fe ds continue to cut back, or I should not say face in ensuring that they are prepared for continue to cut back, if the fe ds did cut back in learning, that they get the supports that they the future or if they add more money in the need, make them special needs students in many future, whatever it is that they decide to do we cases that we are dealing with. will either criticize or we will applaud.

I also know that probably a disproportionate What I am looking for is something which I share of those who need English as a second can applaud this provincial government on language end up being in the city of Winnipeg dealing with the property tax issue. I do not School Division No. 1. In both those cases, the believe the government has done anything over fe deral Liberal government has massively 11 years to try to address that issue, and it reduced its funding to our province. We no surprises me to the degree in which that issue 3150 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

- has been marginalized in this Chamber, because Mr. Chairperson, 55.4 percent said yes back in I do not see it getting the type of attention and 1990; 34.4 percent said no. debate that it should be given. I trust and because at time I can appreciate the sensitivity to You can word a question so that it has an time, I am going to move on to a diffe rent issue, impact on the outcome of the answer, but what I but suffice to say, I look to the Premier to find interesting is, I like to throw the same acknowledge that education. He made reference questions in every so often. So that was the to it in terms of the senior that says, I should not results of 1990. In 1996, the same question: do have to pay education, to the single individual you fe el that the best health care possible is that says, I do not have any kids, I should not available to you? Mr. Chairperson, 38 percent have to pay education. said yes; 56 percent said no. That is a significant difference. To me what it clearly demonstrates Much like health care, we all benefit by is that the government has been unable to be able having a quality education, public educational to communicate, unable to be able to manage the system. We all benefit by having a publicly need fo r health care reform or changes. One of financedhealth care system. What we are really the differences, I would articulate, between us asking all Manitobans to do is to pay their fair and the New Democrats is that we acknowledge share of taxation in financing those two public that, yes, there is a need fo r change, but at the services in particular, at least from my point of same time, we will acknowledge that it is a view. question of how you manage that change.

I believe that the provincial government has On the health care issue, it comes out of not been successful in managing that change. general revenues. I would like ultimately to see The only area, over the years, in which I have at the very least stopping the reliance of funding seen the government open was the former more of public education on property tax, at the - Minister of Health, now Minister of Education very least stop that and let us try to tum it around (Mr. McCrae), when we had the battle fo r the so that we see more of the financing of public save the Seven Oaks Hospital. The government education through general revenues. That is appeared to be somewhat open minded. I ultimately I think the very least a provincial applaud the governmentin terms of being able to government can do. This government, even with recognize the future role of Seven Oaks in constrictions coming in from Ottawa, does have ensuring that it was not converted, because it the ability to do. What they also can do is they would have been a mistake, but, you know, that can ensure that there is a higher sense of is more the exception. fairness. This government can do that. It does not matter what Ottawa does. They can either * (1650) make it harder or easier no doubt in terms of the amount of dollars that they kick in, but this One other thing that comes to mind, you government has within its own jurisdiction the cannot say I cannot give government credit when ability to make it more fair. We look to the it does do some things that are done well, is the Premier to do just that. Health Links line. The Health Links line at one time had limited hours of operation. Today it is I commented on heath care. Health care is 24 hours, seven days a week, there is a 1-800 indeed a critical issue. It is on the top of minds phone number. Well, these are things in which of every Manitoban. I know it has been a No. 1 again we, in opposition, called upon the concern of the constituents that I have government to do. Whether it had any impact represented more consistently than any other whatsoever on the government, the bottom line issue. Again, I will go back to my surveys. If I is that that Health Links line is there today fo r said back in 1990, and again you are talking well Manitobans. We think that that is a positive. in excess of 550-600-700 homes depending on the year. We have had it as high as 900, but in What has been more often than not - 1990 I had a question that went: do you fe el that portrayed of this government through the years the best health care possible is available to you? is one of mismanagement of health care. The June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3151 biggest one, of course, was probably the Connie likely I would think, because you have the fire Curran era of where we had four point, I believe, and youhave the police service with the binding five million dollars a number of years ago. arbitration, well, then, that legislation that we gave Royal Assent to is completely redundant. Mrs. My rna Driedger, Acting Chairperson, in It should be withdrawn because it would not be the Chair needed.

Today there is a huge question mark on our So then you start questioning, well, why our foods being served in our hospital, Madam health care workers fe el a sense of betrayal. Chairperson. You find that the criticism is Well, you only need to look at some of the abound. There are a lot of people that are calling actions. There has to be a higher sense of fair into question not only the quality of the fo od, play within our health care professionals, that and I guess in part the jury is still out on the the only way in which we are going to manage quality of the fo od, but the way in which this the type of change that is necessary on health whole thing is being managed in terms of being care is that we have to start working with our put into place, where you have huge amounts of stakeholders. This is something which I think is public dollars being expended in order to ensure important fo r this government to take action on. that there is some viability to that particular It is something which we are committed to program from the Health Sciences Centre, and doing, working with the stakeholders in health the Health Sciences Centre has not even received care in order to manage the changes that are any of this so-called better quality fo od. necessary.

You know, unfortunately I have had to visit I look to the Premier and ask the Premier to the hospital a lot more than I would have liked, acknowledge that that is absolutely critical for us but you get a better assessment of some of the to be successful in managing health care change, problems when you are in there on a regular which is necessary, that we have to start basis. I think that there is an all-time low in extending ourselves that even go beyond just the terms of the morale inside our hospitals today. health care worker. The government, a number That is only one component, but that is probably of years ago, had these huge public fo rums on your most important component in health care, education in which there were parents and and the government is losing the battle big time teachers, different stakeholders that attended, on that particular issue. and the government sought to get some fe edback from it. I cannot recall offhand if they had In talking with nurses or other health care anything of that nature with health care. I am providers, there is no sense that the government sure the Premier will correct me if I am wrong. I respects the work that they put in. A good am looking to the Premier to show stronger example of that was the paramedics issue. You leadership in addressing the important issue of know, we fo rced through legislation on the health care. paramedics, which is absolutely unnecessary. We did not need to give it Royal Assent, but the The Leader of the Liberal Party has made government chose to do that, and it was that commitment. He has clearly indicated that supported by the NDP, which is absolutely he would personally take on the responsibility of amazing when they claim to be the party fo r the health care himself as Premier or whatever role union. The union elite, possibly, but not fo r the that the electorate ultimately decide to give him union membership. after the next election. That is the type of leadership that I think is necessary in dealing The government could have demonstrated with this critical issue which is so important to very clearly a vote of confidence fo r this part of so many Manitobans. I would ask the Premier to our health care workers but chose to give it the respond. Royal Assent when it was absolutely not necessary, and I say not necessary because now Mr. Filmon: I have said on numerous occasions they are under mediation. If we have a contract that the real priorities of a government are not that includes binding arbitration, which is fairly where it places its rhetoric but where it places its 3152 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

- major funding. Clearly at 35.5 percent of the government has fa ired better than most budget, health care is the No. I issue with this provinces in Canada in adapting to that change government, has been ever since we have been and managing to keep the system going in a in office. Since we have been in office, we have very, very positive way throughout this. Now it increased spending in government on health care has not met the expectations and needs of by over $800 million per year, from $1.3 billion everybody, but that would be impossible in this a year in 1988 to $2.1 billion this year. That is time of massive change. more than 50 cents out of every new dollar spent has gone into health care. * (1700)

Now, I find it ironic that the member Mr . Chairperson in the Chair opposite is speaking on behalf of Jon Gerrard, his leader, who is the biggest problem with Mr. Lamoureux: I can recall back in '88, '89, health care in Manitoba because he sat at the '90, when there was a lot of discussion in terms table as a fe deral cabinet minister when they of-you know, if the fe deral government does not approved cuts in transfers to Manitoba that change the fo rmula that there is going to be no amounted to ultimately over $260 million a year cash coming to finance health care in the to go to health care. That has been the biggest province of Manitoba. Well, the same Jon challenge that this government has had to face to Gerrard that the Premier criticized fo r cutting keep up funding fo r a system that needs massive, back on health care is the individual that sat massive increased amounts every year as it around the cabinet table that ensured indefinitely adopts new technology, as it builds more that Manitoba will continue to receive health personal care beds, as it expands support care dollars. They established a floor. There has services to seniors, Meals on Wheels, home care, been reinvestment in terms of health care dollars all those things that are the sign of an aging coming in from Ottawa, so as I indicated, the population that is facing every province in Premier is equally at times full of rhetoric in - Canada. He blithely cut the transfer payments order to justify the lack of action in his fr om Ottawa to Manitoba and then now has the government's responsibility. audacity to come back as Leader of the Liberal Party and say we have to do more in health care. The greatest threat to health care today is not It is unbelievable. For the member opposite to necessarily the dollar bill as much as it is of even raise this issue I think must be a bit of an fai ling to recognize and to accomplish the embarrassment, but I guess he is trying to show changes that are necessary. That is really the loyalty to his Leader because frankly it is an greatest threat to health care. The money issue which I think the Liberal Party has a very obviously is critically important, but would not dismal record here in this province. the Premier agree that the larger responsibility fo r ensuring health care for Manitobans is in fact We on the other hand have made it our No. his and his government today, because they 1 priority, and it has increased in priority. It has happen to have the majority of seats inside the gone from being in the low 30 percent of the Chamber? budget to 35.5 percent. It has had an increase of over $800 million a year over an 11-year period which under circumstances is a massive increase They are the ones that have to take in funding, and we have attempted to manage the ultimately the responsibility fo r the health care system at a time when it is in tremendous change when we have seen over the years more and from all areas. A huge, huge change is required more Manitobans lose confidence in what is as the population ages and as the new invest­ happening in health care as opposed to pointing ments have to be made. Huge, huge changes the finger. I think the Premier needs to possibly have to be made to adapt to and adopt new look in the mirror. I would ask fo r the Premier technologies and make the best use of them. to acknowledge that the greatest threat to health care today is in fact how we manage that change, - I think if you look at the press clippings and and of course, recognizing the importance of the media reports from across Canada, this dollars also. June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3153

Mr. Chairperson, again, last year during the but the government could go a long way in Estimates, I had the opportunity to have some helping out if, in fact, they could acknowledge discussions in terms of my personal thoughts and the difference in terms of the additional costs as the party's position in regard to health care and a result of being on a hilly landscape as opposed the way in which we receive money and the to a flood plain. Premier's opinions on cash versus tax points and so fo rth. Suffice it to say that what I would like Mr. Filmon: Mr. Chairman, the circumstances to able to do is to move on to another issue or between the flood of the century on the Red give the Premier, if he wants, an opportunity just River in 1997 and this year's very wet, saturated to comment on the words I just put on the conditions that are as a result of a very much record, otherwise I will continue on with my higher than normal precipitation level in the fall other issue. I shall continue on. of last year, a slightly above-average snowfall during the winter and then a massively above­ Mr. Chairperson, there was an issue that I average rainfall this spring are that huge, huge brought up on Thursday, and we brought it up tracts of land throughout the southern part of the again I guess it would be more informally­ province-and it covers a much wider area than actually I did not bring it up. It was discussed most people believe because there are some today in ministerial comments, and it was in pockets down in the southeast corner of the regard to the floods that we have had. You province, there are huge areas in the southwest, know, back in the flood of the century, there was and then it goes all the way up into the a crop-seeding program that had come out which Grandview, Gilbert Plains area and around at least on the surface appeared to meet most of Minnedosa and Neepawa. It was saturated the needs of the people who were affected. The ground that did not allow the farmers to get on to province has come up with a crop-seeding seed, so there were vastly diffe rent circum­ program that allows that subsidy fo r individuals stances. who go and hire out someone to come and plant seeds. The principle of it is, though, in both cases we came up to the deadline fo r crop insurance or What I am looking fo r from the Premier, and fo r practical seeding purposes that allowed I attempted to do it on Thursday, is to get the enough frost-free days to guarantee or ensure a Premier to acknowledge that there is a big crop could be grown. The circumstances are difference between the Red River Floodway, the identical in that in order to maximize the use of flooding that occurred there, and the flooding that very, very short window, we had five days that we are seeing in the southwest in terms of of consecutive good weather this week, and we landscape, the rolling hills and so fo rth. That, anticipated that if we could get any number of yes, there is a good percentage of that land that consecutive days of good weather, all of a is quite seedable and farmers are doing what sudden ground that had been saturated fo r weeks they can to seed that land, but unless they are on end might dry out enough to get people on prepared to bring outsiders in to assist, there is the land and with a tremendous effort of putting no assistance, from what I understand, for the all of the equipment available at their disposal, farmer who is able to go out and plant some seed we might be able to seed many areas that to the same degree as if they hired someone to otherwise would not get there with the available bring in their machinery to plant the seeds. equipment and manpower of one individual farmer. It was such a logical, reasonable thing to I say that because I look to the Premier to do. It was done in the case of the Red River acknowledge that the difference is substantial in Valley flood of 1997. It had tremendous impact. terms of costs. The costs of planting seeds in Probably in the last few days before the that area, because of the more hilly fo rmations, deadlines, hundreds of thousands of acres were are consi derably more. I have had discussions seeded. with one local farmer out in that area, in particular, who indicated that it is very difficult This year it appears, because my latest fo r the farmers to ensure that seeds are, in fact, information which I was handed just before being planted, that they are doing what they can, going into Question Period today, is that, 3154 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

whereas 10 days ago when I was out in that area subsidy-from what I understand, what you are - there were three million acres unseeded, we are really talking about is that if you wanted to seed down today to perhaps about 750,000 acres. So it, get people to come in to do it, this way you the effort that we made in coming up with the get the subsidy. If you try to do it yourself, there custom seeding proposal has probably been well is no subsidy, at least to the same degree if you worth it in terms of the massive amount that it bring someone in. That is where I think the will save the taxpayers through either AIDA or Premier at least should give some consideration any other program. to having some flexibility.

So we are saying it was absolutely a good Mr. Filmon: I will certainly have the Minister idea in 1997. It is still a good idea in 1999 fo r of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) look at it, but the real those for whom it was needed, and I cannot issue is why the fe deral government has not imagine why the member opposite would try and agreed to put the money in fo r this custom argue that there are differences and why he seeding program when they did it in the Red should want to help the fe deral government get River Valley. Why are they treating Manitobans out from under an obligation here. I think the diffe rently in diffe rent areas of the province? fe deral government should be putting the money Why are they not as sympathetic today as they in to treat the farmers of southern and western were in 1997 when in fact the concern and the Manitoba in exactly the same way as they economic loss is going to be much greater in this treated the farmers of the Red River Valley in year than it was in 1997, because in 1997 there 1997. was $350-million worth of damage. But it was fo llowed by six months to a year of $350 million Mr. Lamoureux: I acknowledge that the of reconstruction in which all of the damages program itself, the custom seeding benefit were repaired, no economic loss essentially. In program, is a very positive program, but the one fact, all but 1 ,800 acres were seeded. the government has in place does need some - more flexibility. I was very specific where that This time, we are going to have-and maybe flexibility should be, and I ask the Premier to we are lucky, maybe it will get down to a half correct me if I am wrong. From what I million acres, but it is still going to be a understand, if a farmer has a hilly property in substantial amount of farmland unseeded, and which he or she wants to be able to seed and that is a loss of the entire income from that they have the machinery in which they can do which cannot be replaced by anything else that, if they do it, as I am sure they will, there is because it is a total economic loss to the an additional cost because they are not doing the province's GOP which then does not flow to the valley portion. So they are driving along the merchants and business people in the towns and tops type thing. That is the way in which it was villages which is a total loss. We have had no explained to me. Now, in some cases, if the response fr om the fe deral government in Ottawa province was to assist in that area, we would see saying that they are willing to put the money into even more of that 750,000 that is still not seeded this custom seeding, even though we know that today. I trust that number is actually going to go by having announced it last week we probably down over the next couple of days still because I saved ourselves hundreds of thousands of acres think it is the 28th that is the final cutoff. I am that might have otherwise gone unseeded. not 100 percent sure. I believe it is around the 28th. Why would the member not go and talk to the Liberal government and Mr. Vanclief? Why * (1710) would he not say, John Gerrard, you stay on that phone until you get an answer from Ottawa? But it seems to me that, given the time Why does he come here and start to pick away at sensitivity of this particular issue, why would the whether or not the program covers all possible Premier not, at the very least, look into the needs or is fair to every single possible farmer? possibility of having the program a little bit It has done a very good job and will continue to more flexible that would at the very least take do a good job fo r most farmers, but it cannot - this into consideration, whether it is a $5-an-acre possibly solve all particular issues, nor could we June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3155 be flexible enough to say this person is going to could have so many people involved, so many get $10 an acre, this person because it will cost people who sit around the Premier and the more gas to go on the hills instead of the valleys Premier not to be aware of it. will get $10.65 an acre, this person here probably has a few extra little problems and so I know, myself, I have had the fortune of he will get $10.72 an acre. I mean, you cannot sitting, at least at times, on an election readiness do that. You have to go and try and help the committee and got as far as it did, but when it most people that you possibly can with the was brought up at the beginning of the session, program, and that is what I believe this custom Mr. Chairperson, we had decided after seeding proposal has done. What we really need considerable discussion that the best way to deal is the fe deral government to come in and say, with this particular issue was to ensure that okay, we are going to pay for it like we did in during the election time Manitobans, as much as the Red River Valley, and that is what I would possible, are aware of what in fact had taken urge him to pursue. place and let the voters ultimately determine the fate of this particular issue. We find it just too Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I do know incredible to believe, and we look forward that if I had the same sort of resources as the ultimately to the voters dealing with this Premier's Office has or the Leader of the official particular issue. opposition's office has, no doubt there would be many diffe rent initiatives that I would personally Having said that, there is another issue that I be able to get more involved with. We have to was wanting to bring up. It deals with ethical recognize that there is a big diffe rence between behaviour, and it has only been given more the Flood of the Century in the flooding, as the attention because of the political nature of it. Premier himself has pointed out, a huge, huge That is what has happened over in the Seven difference that we see this year. It is a question Oaks School Division. Mr. Chairperson, as of flexibility, as I pointed out. I will save that opposed to constantly bringing it up in Question lobbying fo r, or I will let our Leader and others Period, again, we have made the decision to continue with the lobbying that is most minimize that, primarily because of the political appropriate with our fe deral cousins. posturing, if I could use that word, done during Question Period, but we do feel that it is a very Having said that, the nice thing that I heard important issue. the Premier say is that he would be prepared to bring it up with the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. In fact, on Thursday I brought it up with Enns). We do, in fact, appreciate the gesture and the Minister of Education (Mr. McCrae). The hope that the Premier does see the merits of Minister of Education had indicated that he was having a little bit more flexibility on that going to be receiving the report. We found out particular program. today that he does in fact have the report. He has actually read through the report. Our Having said that, I wanted to move on to position on this issue is to try to get an another topic area, some would say a slice independent investigation into it, and what I am possibly. [interjection] I will try and finish by looking fo r the Premier to acknowledge is an six. [interjection] Mr. Chairperson, I would like independent investigation. I guess the govern­ to think that I am not necessarily defending the ment to date has been saying: well, they want to fe deral government, even though it seems far too ensure that there is due process, and there might often I am raising the issue of the fe deral be some merit for that particular argument. I government. used the word "might" somewhat carefully, I guess. But having said that, I wanted to comment on the Monnin commission. There is a bit of a * (1720) difference, I guess, again between the official opposition and us in terms of the frequency of The issue, as we see it, is fairly clear, and raising this particular issue. We find that it is we wanted to see the government take some sort pretty tough to believe, quite frankly, that you of action on two fronts. One is integrity: what 3156 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 has been called into question is the integrity of Now we know the government has a report. - the standard exams, standard exams in which What I am looking fo r from the Premier today is this government has boasted on countless a commitment that this government will not occasions of having. I believe that all three conduct an internal investigation of what took political parties-actually I sat on OB talk line place. The reason I say I want that commitment and all three parties-1 was on CJOB with the from the Premier is because of the individuals Education critic and the Minister of Education in involved. I believe, given the political nature of which we talked about the standard exams; it what we have before us that it would be unjust was agreed by all parties in the Chamber that the and unfair for an internal investigation to be standard exams are a positive thing. There are conducted from this government. The simple some differential opinions on the way in which reasoning fo r that is because the principal in the government is doing it; for example, we do question is the campaign chair, from what I not care fo r the Grade 3 standard exams. We understand, of the New Democratic Party. believe the government is wrong by having Ultimately the individual who brought fo rward standard exams at the Grade 3 level, but all the report, and I have not seen the report, is very parties support having standard exams. Having closely affiliated with the New Democratic said the amount of boasting this government has Party. done and the amount of support that standard exams have inside this Chamber, one has to be I can say MLAs from all sides, New very cognizant of the fact that there has been a Democrats and Tories, have supported me in breach of security, but, more importantly, of making some of these inquiries that I have been how the government has dealt with that breach making, because it is an issue that does need to of security. be dealt with, but it has to be dealt with appropriately. What I see is the government is prepared to address it today fo r the wrong I believe that it calls into question the reasons. It is being politically motivated - integrity of the standard exams. It sends so because they see some blood on this issue, and many negative messages, and months have gone they are prepared to go to the jugular in an by. The Monnin inquiry took nine months. We attempt to embarrass the New Democrats. I do are well past nine months on the breach of a not have any problem with embarrassing the standard exam. It is the integrity of those New Democrats myself, personally, but I have to standard exams which causes us great concern. acknowledge that we need to ensure that there is not only real justice served but perceived justice The second point is what has happened to served in dealing with this issue. the individual. Perception is very important. The health and well-being of this individual has I have indicated the two primary reasons been impacted negatively. The reputation ofthis why it needs to be addressed. I am now asking individual has been negatively impacted. As I fo r the Premier to acknowledge, given the indicated, it is a question of perception, political nature, that if this government does not especially when you talk about one's reputation. accept the report submitted by Seven Oaks, and I If in fact the individual is demoted fo r whatever do not know what the report says, but if it does reasons that had nothing to do with the standards not accept that report, that under no exams, well, that has not come out. The circumstances will there be an internal review by individuals around there, the teachers that are this government, that it will in fact be an around, the teachers I met with, no doubt in my independent investigation as to what actually mind feel that he was demoted because of occurred. following a provincial directive, your govern­ ment that said that he had to report the incident. Mr. Filmon: That is not a commitment that I That is the reason why he was demoted. That could make without discussion with the Minister was the general fe eling from the group of of Education and Training (Mr. McCrae). I have teachers that I met with from that school. So it not seen the report. I am not aware of what it is the two issues, the integrity of the standards says, what it recommends, or what the thinking - exams, and the individual. is of the Minister of Education and Training on June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3157 the issue. So I could not make any comment on apologize, that is not what I meant. He said that it at this time. he would correct the record.

Mr. Lamoureux: I look to the Premier to * (1730) acknowledge then that the political background and the political reality of the situation that we Now, in this particular case, the member has have before us is of such a nature that it would letters that were sent and he also knows that be inappropriate for the Department of officials have been in touch. Mr. Vanclief is not Education to have an investigation. Does he not responsible for the disaster financial assistance see the conflict there? Will he acknowledge that program. I believe it is Mr. Collenette, the there is a conflict, that the Department of Minister of Defence and- Education is not in a position in which it can clearly investigate this particular issue? An Honourable Member: Eggleton.

Mr. Filmon: No, Mr. Chairman, I do not see Mr. Filmon: Eggleton, I am sorry. Eggleton, that. So I guess I will have to have time to Minister of Defence. All of this has not only investigate fu rther. been done minister to minister but staff have been engaged ever since we knew there was a Mr. Doer: understand today that in problem going back to the time that I visited on conversations with our Agriculture critic that the or about the 21st of, the 20th to the 25th of May. fe deral minister stated that Manitoba has not At that time, staff were already engaged in applied for the fe deral disaster assistance discussion about the applications of the disaster program as of Friday. As I understand it, the financial assistance program. We were assured government sent the letters last June 9 to the that, like any other disaster, you do not have to fe deral government. I guess we have a serious declare it, and there has been confusion about issue here if the federal Minister V anclief was declaring a state of emergency. saying we have not applied. Can the minister confirm that the letters he tabled in the House The reason that you declare a state of were sent expeditiously to the fe deral govern­ emergency is so that you can take on emergency ment? Our sources said that they did receive powers, that you can evacuate people against them in Ottawa, in fact before I asked the their will, that you can enter onto private government the question. I just do not know property to cut ditches, to excavate land to build what is going on here. The member for Inkster dykes, all those kinds of things. None of those was raising a lot of questions just a moment ago applied here. So we did not have to declare a about issues of public policy. One would hope state of emergency. But we did engage the no matter what the issue is they start from a department fe derally in understanding and position of truth and honesty. I was wondering knowing that there would be disaster claims, whether the fe deral government was telling the damage claims coming, everything from truth. overland flow into basements, to replacement and repair of culverts, bridges, waterways, Mr. Filmon: I will be as charitable as I can to roadways, and so on, all those things. the fe deral Minister, Mr. Vanclief, because I am greatly disappointed in his statements and This process has been ongoing now fo r, actions off the cuff over the last number of well, it is probably five or six weeks. So I would weeks. After he had extensive discussions with charitably say that Mr. Vanclief does not our Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Enns, about understand what was asked of him today, various recommendations he was making to him because our government and his government about fl exibility with respect to AIDA and have been in communication over this issue fo r a NISA, he then stated in response to a question in considerable period of time. Ottawa that he had not received a letter from us asking us to go to action on it. When he was Mr. Doer: CN, a former Crown corporation, challenged by Mr. Enns saying, look, I spoke to broken word from the fe deral government and you a week ago last Friday on this, he said, oh, I sold after the '93 fe deral election. We have lost 3158 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999

some 6,000 jobs in railways over the last 11 families. One hundred and ten fam ilies are - years. We are quite concerned about the Trans­ really quite concerned right now, as one would cona wheel shop being closed down and two understand. It also has a spin-off effect at new shops being initiated and developed in Griffin Steel, and so this is a very important Edmonton and one in Toronto fo r purposes of issue. It has an impact beyond just the direct the wheel shop operation. Has the Premier jobs at Transcona, but a number of other spin-off called or written Mr. Tellier to raise this issue of jobs. It is a very, very important issue, and I the 110 jobs in our community, and can the would ask the Premier-it would help if he could Premier advise us of the status of that situation? personally phone Mr. Tellier. We would prefer the Premier to do it. Mr. Tellier, of course, is the Mr. Filmon: Mr. Chairman, our government new head of the private corporation, and I think always seeks to preserve jobs here and to he has to know how important these jobs are to enhance job opportunities here. I know that our our community. Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism people have had discussions and briefings on the Mr. Filmon: Mr. Chairman, I know that the matter. I do not know what the current status is member opposite knows that I am aggressively and whether or not there has been official pursuing all job opportunities in this province. correspondence, but certainly we have always The reason that we have the greatest number of promoted Manitoba as a good place to do people employed in the history of this province business and to maintain jobs and to enhance earning almost $14 billion in wages and salaries, jobs. As a result of that, CN at various times has more than ever before in the history of this made investment announcements here including province, is because I take that seriously and so their major call centre fo r North America. does our government. We do not rej ect jobs. I noted a bit of a sideswipe shot that the member Mr. Doer: At the same time we had the call took at the call centre by saying that these were centre announced, we had the announcement of high-paying jobs that he was talking about. I - the traffic control section of the CN being recall at the time I was at the opening that it was transferred from Winnipeg to Edmonton. announced that the average salary for the call [interjection] The western headquarters of traffic centre jobs was over $35,000, so these are not control. The other situation, the Premier has low-paying jobs that CN did put into our pointed out they brought in a locomotive fuel tax province. Having said that, we regard all job reduction in 1993 as a way of keeping jobs here opportunities as being good things to support in Manitoba, jobs and repairs in Manitoba, so and maintain, and I will be happy to ensure that will the Premier remind Mr. Tellier of this we make contact with CN over this issue. reduction and therefore the expectation that jobs would be maintained in this community? While I am on my fe et, I wanted to pursue the questions that the member opposite was Mr. Filmon: I will be happy to ensure that asking with respect to what I said before the either the Minister of Transportation (Mr. inquiry. He said that I made a commitment or a Praznik) or myself pursue this matter with Mr. promise-! will have to investigate Hansard as to Tellier and urge him to maintain and enhance what he said about my reference to the Civil job complement here in Manitoba. Service Commission-and I want to just, it is sometimes a good thing to ensure that one has Mr. Doer: Will the Premier specifically raise the actual words and facts before him when one the issue of the wheel shop with Mr. Tellier, responds to these questions and that is why I, inconsistent with the reduction in fuel tax. The despite all of the heat that the member opposite call centre did introduce some jobs to Manitoba, was trying to put on this issue, waited to ensure but we lost a number of others in the traffic that I have the transcript. control section of western Canada to Edmonton, and I am concerned about jobs that are being The NDP lawyer, Mr. Myers, in the latter moved to other communities from Manitoba, the part, in fact, it is on the last page of my higher paid jobs that are being moved out of this discussion with him at the inquiry, raised the - community and its devastating impact on issue of Mr. Benson's participating in the PC June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3159 election efforts in 1995. We were talking about Service Act. Before that, the Premier obfuscated the fact that he had prepared certain cheques and about whether Mr. Benson was covered or not vouchers while he was waiting for his spouse, or covered under the act, and then of course when his significant other, to be available to drive that was estab lished, he proceeded to ask home. whether this was a violation of The Civil Service Act. One would have thought, when the Premier Mr. Myers said: did it cross your mind that knew that, before he testified, he would have when he, when you, discovered that he deposited thought that Mr. Benson may be in violation of these funds back into the PC campaign fund that The Civil Service Act. "It was a cause for maybe he might have been violating The Civil reprimand," right. "You never considered Service Act? referring this to the Civil Service Commission fo r an inquiry." "I haven't, but that is certainly My answer: It didn't, but it was cause fo r something that I am prepared to do," not subject reprimand that he got involved in that process. to and pending this investigation, or maybe or maybe not. It is something I am prepared to do. Mr. Myers: Right. You never considered referring this to the Civil Service Commission It is a commitment he made in testimony. It fo r inquiry? is not these new weasel words that he has added to the record now, were not the weasel words he Answer: I haven't, but certainly that is used in the testimony in the inquiry. He said he something I am prepared to do. had prepared to do it. He prepared to send it to the Civil Service Commission. No wonder we * (1740) continue to have a clash. First of all, he should have done it. The Premier should have been And, of course, I was prepared to do that, worried that this was a breach of The Civil subject to the completion of the inquiry and all Service Act. It should not have even needed a the investigations into what might have turned prompting by our lawyer. A person who was out. At this point, Mr. Benson had not yet interested in getting to the truth of the matter appeared before the inquiry, had not given his would have referred it to the Civil Service side of the story, had not beencross-examined as Commission at the first instant he was made to his role and so on. Obviously should that aware of it. matter have resulted in us having further grounds to investigate, then it would have been Secondly, after it was raised in testimony, I appropriate to turn it over to the Civil Service certainly would have expected the Premier to Commission, but we were engaged in a full have sent it to the Civil Service Commission fo r public inquiry with the broad powers that it had. investigation, for inquiry under the act, and I Until that process was complete, it obviously certainly think that that was the conclusion we was not something that required urgent action, had when the answers were given by the nor did I say I would immediately do it or Premier. But I am sure he will have some commit to it. I said that is something that I am weasel words to explain why he did not. It is prepared to do, and that is why the situation was unfortunate. I think this is the problem all along, not immediately referred to the Civil Service this kind of hear-no-evil, see-no-evil, speak-no­ Commission, and as the member knows, five evil attitude of the government and the Premier weeks later Mr. Benson retired from government and the kind of "we will do anything to win and so the matter was academic. elections" kind of culture of his friends and the appointed members of his election team, Mr. Doer: I went back and refreshed my own including his campaign manager. The combin­ memory with the testimony, and I have to say ation of both, I think, was unfortunate. It is, as I that the conclusions the Premier just drew to his might remind the Premier, one of the most statements in testimony are unbelievable. It was despicable episodes in the history of democracy a specific question about the depositing of funds in this province, and the kind of these technical in the PC campaign fund. The question was interpretations to do the right thing at the right asked whether he may have violated The Civil time when he is confronted and give answers 3160 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 that imply that he is going to take some action was the brainchild of the New Democrats. And - with the Civil Service Commission, in my view, that was in the days, I might say, when the is regrettable, but I am sure the Premier will minister took complete responsibility and hands­ have another interpretation of this matter. on acting in the administration of the corporation. That was at the time that the New I and members who watched and listened to Democrats set the rates in their cabinet room. It the testimony thought that the Premier was going did not go to outside authority like the Public to send it to the Civil Service Commission. The Utilities Board. That was at the time that they Premier obviously will find comfort in these were completely hands-on involved in the words that I cannot believe it because it certainly maladministration of all of their Crown creates the impression that he is going to take corporations. That is why in some of those years action. The Civil Service Commission should be there were massive losses in the telephone investigating this matter. Even if he had not system, operating in a complete monopoly made a commitment, and he will argue he had situation, massive losses in Hydro and so on. not, he should have sent it to the Civil Service Commission. If you break The Civil Service This minister, who later then acknowledged Act, who is the responsible body? I would ask that he had shredded the files so that nobody the Premier: who is the body that investigates could even trace it, but ultimately he was caught breaches of The Civil Service Act? In my view, in his own lie because the person that he fired to it is the Civil Service Commission. try and take responsibility fo r his actions, this minister, colleague, friend, co-worker of the Mr. Filmon: Mr. Chairman, I just make the Leader of the New Democratic Party. He does point to the member opposite, and he will say not say anything about the ethics of that. whatever he wants to say, and I know that he Completely hiding from public view information will spend all of his time and energy attempting that would have been damaging to the New to throw mud at me and my party, and that is his Democrats in their re-election efforts in the - desire and his effort. But the question was: you spring of 1986, was completely camouflaged, never considered referring this to the Civil hidden from view, not only dishonestly, but Service Commission fo r inquiry? The answer unethically. He, of course, as a colleague sits was: I have not, but certainly that is something I there and says that everything is fine; that that is am prepared to do. I am prepared to consider it. all okay, and he does not have any criticism of I told him the reasons why I thought it would be that action of his cabinet colleague. appropriate to at least wait until the remainder of the testimony by Mr. Benson had taken place so He sits there holier than thou attempting to that you did have all of the facts and both sides moralize to me and members on this side of the of the story on the record. Obviously, that never House, when he knows fu ll well, Mr. Chairman, did come to pass. that Mr. Monnin, in nine months of examination, concluded that not I nor any elected member of Mr. Chairman, you know, the member this government nor any member our party's opposite sits there holier than thou attempting to executive or management committee had any say that he is a person of huge integrity and that knowledge of this vote-splitting exercise. So I his party never does anything unethical. You just say to the member opposite he can take all know, we have, in the course of a court case that the time and energyhe wants on that, and people came out just a couple of years ago, a court case are going to judge him based on what he offers that resulted in the taxpayers of Manitoba, of and not based on the mud that he is able to course, being responsible for $2 million in a throw. lawsuit. One of his cabinet colleagues that he sat in cabinet with, a one Mr. Bucklaschuk, who * (1750) hid the information that he knew from the public about all of the things that were going wrong at Mr. Doer: Mr. Chairperson, I think the mud the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, a that the member opposite talks about was thrown - fiascothat ultimately cost the taxpayers over $30 at the government, at the political party, at the million of losses in the reinsurance scheme that Premier's party, by fo rmer Justice Monnin. Page June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3161

16 of the inquiry, and I am sure that the Premier the media, the comments made to Elections has memorized this line, talked about I have Manitoba, the comments made in the media never encountered more liars in all my decades again, the comments made in the first affidavit, on the bench, and you know, it is a strong the comments that then changed that and indictment of the member opposite. contradicted it in the second affidavit, and then comments in a third set of affidavits that then Now, nobody here on this side is saying they became evidence before the inquiry in January are perfect or has not made mistakes or is not of 1999. involved with people that have not made mistakes. The issue is when something happens Now, who is responsible fo r hiring that and it is wrong, you get to the bottom of it. This individual? In a parliamentary democracy, it is Premier chose not to. the Premier. It is the person who hires and fires them. No responsibility for the member Mr. Filmon: That is exactly what we did. opposite. None.

Mr. Doer: He did nothing. You did nothing in You know, fo r us, it is a culture. Last '95. You set the ethical tone fo r this party and Tuesday, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) this campaign manager, and after it became made a comment about eight times the member public you did nothing. fo r St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) had called the confidential gang line. On Thursday, he said the Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Could I ask first time I was informed of anyone calling the the honourable member to come through the line was when the member fo r St. Johns raised it. Chair and not directly? You can check Hansard.

Mr. Doer: I am coming through the Chair. On Friday he had a different story on OB. It is the culture where a Minister of Justice puts Mr. Chairperson: You were saying, you, you, at risk a confidential gang line, and the Premier the Chairperson. of the province sits there all through Question Period, not wanting to engage in the issues Mr. Doer: I do not want to accuse you of being before him, and just does not expect anybody to a liar. come clean, because the Minister of Justice had a third story on Friday, June 18, as he did June Mr. Chairperson: Well, you go right ahead. 17 and June 15.

Mr. Doer: I would not want to do that. I would You know, it is the same position he took on be out of order. the telephone system. There are a number of people out here today talking about the Premier's Justice Monnin challenged the people that word on the Manitoba Telephone System. It is a this person has as fr iends, the people he put in culture of deceit that we are after, that was positions of trust. How do you hire somebody commented on by Judge Monnin: I have never that changes their testimony three times as encountered more liars in all my years on the principal staff and campaign manager? I am not bench. This is what the Premier does not get. talking about an error that he made in his office This is what he does not get when he tries to or an error that he may have made. All of us weasel out of his words when it was clear that he make errors. Volunteers make errors. It is what was going to refer to the Civil Service you do when an error is made. Do you tell the Commission, and now he is saying it was the truth after it or do you cover it up, you cover it consideration that I said I would do, rather than up and you cover it up again? How many people the referral. in the history of this province have gone before an inquiry and have had to change their Continued weaseling, continued denial, testimony once from what they said publicly on continued change of story. Again, it is the television and what they said to Elections culture of deceit. When we look at what he said, Manitoba. So there were the comments made in there was about 300 or 400 people outside of this 3I62 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2I, I999

building today that have been locked out by the fo rmer member for Portage-Interlake, now the - Manitoba Telephone System, every one of them defeated member of Selkirk-Interlake-he said it commenting about the word of the Premier. did matter that they were going to cut $260 million-we all thought it would matter-but these I do not know whether the Premier likes this capital commitments will go ahead and go or not, but most people believe-and the Premier ahead, notwithstanding the fe deral cuts. Now, has stated in his Estimates in the concurrence he is saying that they would have proceeded a motion a couple of years ago that he, in fact, had long time ago if it was not fo r the fe deral cuts. only changed his mind after the election about This Premier is a stranger to the truth. the sale of the telephone system but before the election he acknowledged that he was not going Now, we are not saying on our side of the to sell the phone system. It was not fo r sale. aisle that we are perfect. You know, we have They were not going to privatize it. Candidates thousands of volunteers and people make in Dauphin were saying the same thing. Then, mistakes, but the question is: what happens of course, right after the election campaign, you when a mistake is made? What happens when know, here it goes: Broken word, broken the Liberals are involved in an election promise. violation? What happens when that takes place?

The Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) sends An Honourable Member: You go to court. out a document to 100,000 people on the confidentiality of the gang line. This was under Mr. Doer: And Elections Manitoba convicted their I994-95 Gang Action Plan. If you give the Liberal Party, and that is right and that is fair your word to 100,000 people that that line will enough. I just wanted to point out that things are be confidential, and the Minister of Justice not, you know- breaches the confidentiality himself, why is this Premier not being as accountable with his Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The hour - ministers as Premier Harris is in Ontario with being six o'clock, committee rise. Mr. Runciman? Why is he not being as tough as what happened in Ontario with the former Call in the Speaker. Minister of Highways, I believe? There is both the honesty and the standards of confidentiality IN SESSION that this Premier just does not seem to get. Of course, when we go to the No. I priority of Mr. Deputy Speaker (Marcel Laurendeau): people, the Premier promised to build the capital The hour being six o'clock, this House is now in the health care sector in I995, adjourned and stands adjourned until tomorrow notwithstanding the federal cuts. He said that (Tuesday) at I :30 p.m. irrespective of the cuts that were made by the

- LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, June 21, 1999

CONTENTS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Ashton; Toews 3063

Presenting Reports by Standing Minister of Justice and Special Committees Chomiak; Toews 3059 3064 Committee of Supply Ashton; Toews 3060 Laurendeau 3053 Friesen; Toews 3062

Ministerial Statements Education System Lamoureux; McCrae 3061 Forest Fire Conditions Cummings 3053 Struthers 3053 Members' Statements

Flooding Compensation Income Assistance Reforms Pitura 3054 McAlpine 3064 Struthers 3054 Aboriginal Solidarity Day Tabling of Reports Robinson 3064

Supplementary Information fo r Norris Lake Cairn Legislative Review, 1999-2000, Helwer 3065 Departmental Expenditures, Manitoba Agriculture Greenway School Tweed (for Enns) 3055 Mihychuk 3065

Supplementary Information fo r NHL Stanley Cup Legislative Review, 1999-2000 Rocan 3066 Departmental Expenditure Estimates, Department of Justice ORDERS OF THE DA Y Toews 3055 Committee of Supply Oral Questions (Concurrent Sections) Flooding Doer; Filmon 3055 Family Services 3067

Gang Hotline Legislative Assembly 3093 Doer; Toews 3057 Mackintosh; Toews 3058 Highways and Transportation 3095 3063 Lamoureux; Toews 3060 Executive Council 3131