Day 13 IICSA Inquiry - Chichester 21 March 2018
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Day 13 IICSA Inquiry - Chichester 21 March 2018 1 Wednesday, 21 March 2018 1 survivors had not been in a room with so many church 2 (10.00 am) 2 people since she'd been in a position of abuse. 3 MS ELIZABETH HALL (continued) 3 I thought that was very, very moving and helpful. 4 Examination by MS SCOLDING (continued) 4 Then, thirdly, I was able to put together a sort of 5 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone. Good morning, 5 briefing paper that went out around the dioceses and 6 Ms Scolding. 6 districts, pulling together learning points from "The 7 MS SCOLDING: Good morning, chair and panel. We are 7 Stones Cry Out", which was too big a document to 8 continuing this morning with the evidence of Ms Hall. 8 expect -- to make general reading. 9 Ms Hall, we were just dealing with the work that you 9 Q. Yes, we have read it. It is a 100-page document? 10 did with survivors. Can you identify -- you then 10 A. But it is a tome, isn't it? 11 identify at paragraph 82 that you did some particular 11 Q. Yes. 12 work with MACSAS. Now, the panel has had an opportunity 12 A. I pulled out of that some learning points and from the 13 to hear evidence from Alana Lawrence, who was chair of 13 Butler-Sloss Report as well, and circulated that. 14 MACSAS, I believe, at that time. What work did you do 14 I think the panel's been given -- or you have been given 15 or did you try and do in respect of victims and 15 that report. But I couldn't have done that without that 16 survivors? 16 work. And, as I remember, I shared that with Alana, 17 A. In respect of the organisation MACSAS -- 17 but, because I shared one or two things with Alana, 18 Q. Organisation, yes. 18 I can't be 100 per cent sure that I did, but I think 19 A. -- because obviously there were many others who didn't 19 I would have done. 20 want to be involved with a particular group. 20 Q. Can I ask you about training. Now, when you arrived, 21 Q. Yes. 21 was there any sort of national training programme? 22 A. There were three particular areas that I remembered: one 22 A. There had been a national training programme around the 23 was that MACSAS published the report "The Stones Cry 23 vetting and barring scheme. 24 Out" in May 2011, and Alana Lawrence got in touch with 24 Q. But there hadn't been about any other aspect of 25 me before that and said she wanted to work through the 25 safeguarding? Page 1 Page 3 1 Church of England section. There wasn't a Methodist 1 A. Not that I remember. Not in any clear way. 2 section. Nobody had come forward on the website to 2 Q. So when you worked there, was there any basic foundation 3 report any Methodist issues. So it was purely 3 training that anybody had to undertake? 4 Church of England work. 4 A. Different dioceses had different things. In the 5 And I met with her, and we went through all the 5 Methodist Church we implemented -- we went to the NSPCC 6 names, and I was then given a couple of days, as 6 to produce a training package. It was a foundation, it 7 I remember, to go away and speak to each diocese and 7 was called. It was for anybody who had anything do with 8 find out what was happening with that name, was what had 8 children or adults who may be vulnerable or who carried 9 been said accurate, et cetera. And in one particular 9 any role of responsibility within the church, and just 10 instance, it lit all sorts of alarm bells for the 10 to give you a sense of the number of people, I think it 11 diocese, who went to the police because the man was 11 was over 23,000 people were trained on that two-hour 12 currently in a trial for another element of abuse, and 12 module in the first year when we rolled it out. That 13 the police said, "This cannot be done because it could 13 was also made available to the Church of England. It 14 lead to a mistrial". I went back to MACSAS and they 14 was on the website. I circulated all the trainer notes 15 very respectfully, I thought, of the police view, 15 and, for example, the Cumbria diocese, instead of 16 removed that name from the report and the man was 16 providing its alternative -- any alternative training, 17 eventually convicted of the new abuse, which was not 17 expected all their churches to do that training the 18 church-related abuse, but he did go back to prison. So 18 same. But there wasn't a consistent takeup of it across 19 that was number one. 19 the Church of England. 20 Number two, I remember in July 2013 when 20 Q. What was your view as to the adequacy of training, both 21 General Synod had a special debate around safeguarding 21 for, shall I say, clergy and parishes but also senior 22 and wanted to issue a formal apology to survivors, 22 clergy within the church during your time in office? 23 MACSAS organised a small group of survivors to come to 23 A. I was never able to find the time or the resources to do 24 that synod debate, which I was grateful for them to do. 24 a formal audit, so I'm talking impressions. 25 It was a long, hard day, and at least one of those 25 Q. Yes. Page 2 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London EC4A 2DY Day 13 IICSA Inquiry - Chichester 21 March 2018 1 A. But my impressions were that we were only beginning to 1 said, "Well, no, I made my views plain earlier this 2 scrape that -- the surface of that. In terms of clergy 2 summer. I won't do it unless they have had safeguarding 3 training, there was one occasion when we met with the 3 training". So they came to me and rearranged very 4 person responsible for clergy training with my -- the 4 immediate one-to-one training for these -- 5 manager in the Church of England was David Williams, and 5 Q. Emergency safeguarding training. 6 he had just himself in his own time been through the 6 A. -- they were men. But actually, that was a real lesson 7 foundation training. He left the role to become a vicar 7 to me, because those people were able to share with me 8 in a local church. And so I was told all this 8 the weight of concern they each felt about safeguarding 9 foundation training has a safeguarding module, all -- 9 in a way that they would not have done on what I was 10 they called foundation their training for clergy, rather 10 developing in terms of roving training, group. So 11 than in the Methodist Church we used it as a different 11 I then arranged to be part of the one on one. Obviously 12 word. So all this foundation training has a module 12 anybody coming up to being a bishop is given a whole 13 around safeguarding, and David said -- very nicely, 13 load of one-on-one training, from media, from different 14 genteelly, politely, but said he'd just been through it 14 people, and so I arranged for that also to happen from 15 completely and not had a word about safeguarding all the 15 then on. 16 way through. I wouldn't have been able to challenge -- 16 Q. What work did you do to try and strengthen relationships 17 Q. This is sort of 2010/2011? 17 between dioceses and local authorities and local police 18 A. Yes. 18 forces and what work did you do to strengthen that 19 Q. He was saying at theological colleges, even then -- 19 nationally, the national relationships, between, for 20 well, he wasn't taught it at his theological college? 20 example, the Department for Education and ACPO and those 21 A. He hadn't gone on a residential -- he'd been doing it -- 21 sorts of matters? 22 Q. Sort of part time? 22 A. My experience of working with local authorities at 23 A. -- evenings and weekends, but it hadn't been mentioned. 23 Cafcass was that -- my previous experience, in my 24 So I knew that we had a perception difference, a gap, 24 previous role, through serious case reviews mainly, but 25 that needed tackling. I also knew that there was an 25 also other safeguarding issues, is that it was very, Page 5 Page 7 1 issue for clergy who were already in role and for senior 1 very difficult to do that at a national level because 2 clergy, particularly linked with discipline, and for 2 local authorities, by definition, work locally. So it 3 general people in the congregation, because although 3 wasn't easy to do, other than on a piecemeal basis. 4 it's much more clergy led, the Anglican Church than the 4 We had one serious case review where the church 5 Methodist Church, lay leadership is still very 5 was involved, so we worked closely with that local 6 important.