Vol. 738 Thursday No. 24 28 June 2012

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Economy: Deficit Reduction Armed Forces Day Small and Medium-sized Enterprises: Foreign Languages Taxation: Avoidance Electoral Registration and Administration Bill First Reading Business of the House Motion to Approve Draft Communications Data Bill Membership Motion English Cathedrals Motion to Take Note FSA Investigation into LIBOR Statement Education and Training: People with Hidden Disabilities Motion to Take Note Dementia Question for Short Debate

Grand Committee Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] Committee (2nd Day)

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2012, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU; email: [email protected] 317 Economy: Deficit Reduction[28 JUNE 2012] Economy: Deficit Reduction 318

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I can assure my noble House of Lords friend that the Government are committed both through the changes that we are making to the income tax Thursday, 28 June 2012. system and to other public expenditure decisions to protect the vulnerable and reward those who choose to 11 am work, particularly at the lower income levels. So we have, for example, the uprating of benefits by Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Birmingham. 5.2% more than average earnings growth to protect people from rising prices; reforms to the tax credit system, so that we are tackling the deficit in a fair Economy: Deficit Reduction way; uprating the child tax credits, so that families Question see an increase of £135 per child this year as well as £180 over inflation last year; changes to personal 11.05 am allowances, which will benefit 25 million people, taking 260,000 people out of income tax altogether; Asked by Lord Barnett and the fairness premium at £7.2 billion—I could go To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they on. My noble friend is right, and I can confirm that remain of the opinion that their deficit reduction this will be very much at the forefront of the Government’s plan has been the right policy for the United Kingdom; thinking. and, if so, why. Lord Peston: My Lords, bearing in mind that the The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Lords reform Bill is predicated on the Government’s Sassoon): My Lords, tackling the large deficit that this view that your Lordships’ House lacks legitimacy, I Government inherited was, and is, necessary to restore congratulate the Minister on his willingness—at least public finances to a sustainable path. Reversing the on this occasion—to answer our questions, albeit not historic rise in public debt will strengthen the UK’s very satisfactorily. I hope he continues with that. medium-term growth prospects. On the substantive issue, has the Minister seen the Governor of the Bank of England’s latest, extraordinarily Lord Barnett: My Lords, has the Minister seen the pessimistic forecast about the likely status of what OECD’s latest figures, which show that when the one would have called the real economy—as opposed Government took office in 2010 our net debt in that to the financial economy? Bearing in mind that most year was 53.9% of GDP, while in Germany it was of the Government’s expenditure cuts have not yet 52.2%? By 2013, next year, they say that UK debt will been made, surely the governor in his pessimism is be 74%, although it is likely to be higher now in the actually not being pessimistic enough. Does the noble light of the latest figures, while Germany’s will still be Lord agree? 50.5%. The budget deficit was serious, of course, but it cannot be blamed for those figures. Does the Minister Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I think that the Governor not agree that those figures show that the real reason of the Bank of England is, as always, being very behind this is that Germany had growth, whereas the realistic and clear about the nature of the dangers that Chancellor’s deficit reduction plan deliberately had no we continue to face particularly because of the eurozone growth? In those circumstances, can we now expect crisis. This is precisely why we will stick to the fiscal another U-turn, shortly I hope, to provide some capital course that we have charted; why it is supported by the for structural expenditure, which might just help to IMF, the OECD and business organisations here; and kick-start a bit of a revival? why it is that we have 10-year interests at 1.7 per cent. We will do nothing to jeopardise that position in the Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the debt figures that the face of the very real dangers that the governor points noble Lord, Lord Barnett, recited precisely illustrate out. the structural deficit challenge that we inherited from the previous Government. We have already reduced Lord Ryder of Wensum: My Lords, leaving aside the the current budget deficit from 11% to 8% of GDP in welcome reductions in corporation tax, will my noble two years, but there is much more to do, and we will friend please remind your Lordships of the three main do it. We will be reducing borrowing by £155 billion a supply-side measures promoted by the Treasury to year by 2016-7, compared to what it otherwise might encourage growth? have been under another Government. We will keep on with that task. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the first thing that we need to do to support growth is to continue to have Lord Sharkey: My Lords, the Oxfam report, The companies and individuals confident that we will stick Perfect Storm, published two weeks ago, says: to a responsible course and keep interest rates low. It is “The combination in the UK of economic stagnation and from this that all else flows. As well as tight fiscal public spending cuts is causing substantial hardship to people discipline, it is important that we have a loose monetary living in poverty”. discipline. That is the right policy prescription. We will In view of this, could the Minister tell the House what target our other efforts into making sure that education, plans the Government have in place to mitigate the infrastructure and each of the key drivers of medium-term effects of their deficit reduction programme on our sustainable growth are supported in all that we do as a most deprived groups and communities? Government. 319 Economy: Deficit Reduction[LORDS] Armed Forces Day 320

Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, the Minister has morning. Earlier this week, we saw Ben Parkinson referred to the reduction of the deficit from 11% to 8% carrying the Olympic torch through Doncaster. He of GDP. However, is it not the case that the deficit on suffered appalling injuries in Afghanistan in 2006—the current spending has hardly changed over the course loss of both legs, and brain and back injuries, which of the last year and that almost all the reduction in the are euphemistically described as life-changing injuries. total deficit has come from cuts in investment spending? Ben Parkinson carried the torch for 300 metres. It took him 25 minutes to complete the walk. It was an Lord Sassoon: No, my Lords, that is not correct. act of great determination, guts and, yes, courage. Last year, Government departments came in with It is so that we can express our thanks, gratitude underspends of some £6 billion—and that was certainly and support to our Armed Forces and veterans, and not all capital spending. What my right honourable the enormous sacrifices that so many have made on friend the Chancellor was able to do this week by our behalf, including giving their lives, that we have cutting fuel duty, putting £550 million back into the Armed Forces Day. In thanking the Minister for his pockets of hard-working families, illustrates how we comprehensive reply, may I ask whether the Government are able to use underspends and put them to very good will review the levels of future support that we as a use where they are most valuable to our people. nation give, in whatever form, to Armed Forces Day to ensure that the crucial role undertaken on our behalf Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, can the Minister and the sacrifices made by our Armed Forces continue explain why the Prime Minister was the only leader of to be fully understood and appreciated, including by a nation attending the G20 whose country was in the minority of individuals and organisations who recession? If he is talking about inheritance, does he knowingly or unknowingly still discriminate against recall the fact that, in 2010, this Government inherited Armed Forces personnel? a 2 per cent growth rate and now it is nought? Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, the Armed Forces will be very grateful for the Opposition’s continued Lord Sassoon: My Lords, we face very difficult support, and I share the noble Lord’s admiration for challenges. For all the deficit reduction that we have the courage of Ben Parkinson in Doncaster. With done, this country still has a budget deficit higher than regard to discrimination, the Cabinet sub-committee Greece, Portugal and Spain. Yet we have interest rates on the Armed Forces covenant, chaired by Oliver that are very much lower and the confidence of the Letwin, will oversee work across government and ensure markets, and it is off that base that sustainable growth that momentum on all strands of the covenant is will come. maintained. The noble Lord asked whether we are doing enough to spread the message. Armed Forces Armed Forces Day Day now has over 1 million followers on Facebook, and this shows just how much the day has caught the Question imagination of people in this country. We will keep the 11.14 am level of assistance that we provide under review. However, one of the most remarkable features of Asked By Lord Rosser Armed Forces Day is the way in which the lead is To ask Her Majesty’s Government what level of being taken by communities themselves, rather than financial or other form of support they are providing here in Whitehall. for Armed Forces Day on Saturday 30 June. Lord Dannatt: My Lords, it fairly reflects the view The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of those who are serving, have served in or are veterans of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My Lords, the of our Armed Forces when they say how grateful they Government are supporting this Saturday’s Armed are for the upsurge in support from the British public Forces Day in many different ways. Members of the over the past four or five years for what they have been Armed Forces are involved in events up and down the doing. However, there are genuine concerns about the country, from parades to fly-pasts, including the national sustainability of Armed Forces Day, notwithstanding event in Plymouth. As well as meeting the costs of this the Minister’s previous Answer. Will he consider asking participation, the Ministry of Defence has made grants his officials to conduct a survey in the coming months of some £223,000 to help communities to organise of the number of cities, towns and communities that their own events. In addition, reservists were invited to have laid on activities for this Armed Forces Day, wear their uniforms to work yesterday, and Armed compare them with the activities on Remembrance Forces veterans were encouraged to wear their veterans’ Sunday and the remembrance period, and try to validate badge. As part of the build-up to Armed Forces Day, the thought that a better model for the sustainable show your support flags will be flown on all government recognition of our Armed Forces in the future might buildings and town halls, and some local authorities be to combine on one day—probably in November—the are taking the opportunity to sign up to their own celebration of those who have served our nation in community covenants. This all adds up to a wide-ranging uniform with remembering the sacrifice of those who celebration of what our Armed Forces bring to this have lost their lives? country. Lord Rosser: My Lords, yesterday we had a Question Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I will certainly take about discrimination against our Armed Forces, and the noble Lord’s suggestion back to my department. I another example has been reported in the press this can assure him that I have a list here of all the events 321 Armed Forces Day[28 JUNE 2012] Small and Medium-sized Enterprises 322 taking place throughout the country, and there seems Small and Medium-sized Enterprises: to be a great deal of enthusiasm from all sections of Foreign Languages the country. Question Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: In replying to a debate on 19 June about Armed Forces Day, my honourable 11.22 am friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Asked by Lord Harrison Defence said: “former service personnel were encouraged to wear a veterans’ To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assistance badge”.—[Official Report, Commons, 19/6/12; col. 194WH.] they provide to help small and medium sized enterprises Does my noble friend feel that the time has come to which export their products and services to acquire stop prevaricating in committees and to introduce a foreign language expertise. national defence medal to be awarded on application to all those who have served our country in the Armed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Forces, and to cut all red tape and allow our service for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): personnel to proudly wear all medals awarded to them My Lords, UK Trade and Investment provides a by other nations? subsidised service, available to SMEs, which helps them to overcome language and cultural barriers in Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, the independent overseas markets. The service can provide a bespoke review by Sir John Holmes of the rules applicable to written report with in-depth advice and information the awarding of military medals is currently under on types of language learning and rates, and on recruiting way. He is considering all known campaigns for medals, students and foreign nationals to provide in-house including the case for a national defence medal, and language skills. The service also signposts companies will report reasonably soon. to professional bodies such as the Chartered Institute Lord Davies of Stamford: I know the noble Lord is of Linguists and the Association for Language Learning a great supporter of our Armed Forces and stands up when they wish to select a provider for foreign language for them on many occasions. Will he therefore join me training. in condemning the absolutely despicable behaviour of the publican of Browns bar in Coventry the other day Lord Harrison: My Lords, the House would welcome who refused to admit two soldiers, who had been further information about what sounds a very valuable taking part in a military funeral, because they were addition. However, given the recent parlous decline in wearing their uniforms? Will he look again at the British exports—attributable in part, according to recommendations—there were 40 in all—of the national Professor Steven Hagen of the University of Wales, to recognition of the Armed Forces inquiry in the last the failure of British firms to acquire language skills—and Parliament? One of those recommendations was that given that only three out of 100 British firms have any we should outlaw discrimination against armed services kind of language management strategy, will the noble personnel and provide the same kind of protection Baroness start to set tongues wagging in the small that we provide against discrimination on grounds of business community in favour of learning languages? sex, race, sexuality or disability, so that these incidents Will she ensure that the languages unearthed and never happen again. mobilised during the forthcoming Olympics, especially those found among our ethnic representation, can be Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I agree entirely used to help small businesses, so that British exporters, with what the noble Lord said about that terrible act unlike the British Government, can ensure that they in the bar at the time of the funeral of the serviceman are not speechless in the face of a widening Europe who was killed. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord and a widening world? Davies, who commissioned the report of inquiry into national recognition of the Armed Forces when he Baroness Wilcox: Right—information on the Export was Defence Minister, which of course led to the Communications Review, along with all other UKTI setting up of Armed Forces Day. services, will be available at Olympic business-related Lord Burnett: Will my noble friend explain the role events. Details of the help that will be available have to be taken by the reserve forces on Armed Forces already gone out. We certainly wish to use the opportunity Day, and will he elaborate a little further on the to make sure that people from our small and medium-sized involvement of the great city of Plymouth on Armed businesses meet as many people from foreign businesses Forces Day? as possible. We are very fortunate in this country in having a multicultural society—I think that in London Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, Wear YourUniform alone more than 300 languages are spoken. Very often to Work Day took place yesterday, when all reservist it is just a case of making sure that small and medium-sized and cadet organisations were encouraged to wear their businesses realise that there are agencies that can uniform to work to highlight their important role in provide their employees with the languages that they the defence of our country.The Plymouth event promises need. It is not just a matter of a requirement to learn a to be a spectacular occasion, with a tri-service parade; language; understanding the culture of the country a fly-past by Typhoons, historic aircraft and the Red that you are going to is also important. The French Arrows; a steam-past led by HMS “Argyll”; and lots that you speak needs to be not just the French that you of other service equipment on show. I am delighted learnt at school but the language of the culture. UK that the city of Plymouth has fully embraced its Trade and Investment goes into small businesses with opportunity to host the national event this year. a subsidised programme to help them understand how 323 Small and Medium-sized Enterprises[LORDS] Taxation: Avoidance 324

[BARONESS WILCOX] Lord Cotter: I congratulate the Minister very much to take their products forward by making sure that on her comprehensive Answer to the Question. The they are aware of the culture of the country they are points that she made and the answers she gave were visiting. very good indeed. It is important that there should be publicity about what is available, but often there is not Baroness Coussins: My Lords, does the Minister enough. It is also important that schools, as well as recognise the success of language NVQs in preparing businesses, provide education in languages, and that students for using languages at work, especially in the further education colleges provide special lessons in SME sector? Will she undertake to meet her DfE business-orientated languages, particularly Chinese and colleagues to tell them how much UK businesses value Spanish. these language NVQs and ask that these qualifications continue to count towards a school’s performance Baroness Wilcox: Of course I agree with my noble points for the EBacc after 2013? friend. He will know that last week we announced our proposals for the primary national curriculum. The Baroness Wilcox: I will certainly take up that suggestion teaching of a foreign language will be compulsory from the noble Baroness. throughout key stage 2, and that will include Latin and Greek. Lord Geddes: My Lords, I declare an interest as life president of Trinity College London, the worldwide Taxation: Avoidance examination body in English for speakers of other languages. Does my noble friend agree about the vital Question importance of foreign languages for British speakers and that it is equally important for UK Ltd that the 11.29 am reverse applies—that those who are not conversant Asked by Lord Clinton-Davis with English learn to speak it better? To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action Baroness Wilcox: I am very impressed to hear that they are taking regarding the use of devices to my noble friend is the head of such an august organisation avoid or minimise the payment of taxation. and am only too delighted to know that he is there. I will support him in everything that he does in taking The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord us forward, making sure that we get the growth that Sassoon): My Lords, the Government act as soon as we need and that we can all communicate widely. they become aware of schemes to avoid tax and challenge those by every means available. In the past year, seven Lord Mitchell: My Lords, I shall be 70 on my next schemes have been closed down with immediate effect, birthday and this is my first time at the Dispatch and since 2010 the Government have litigated some Box—all of which goes to show that in your Lordships’ 30 avoidance cases. The Government are now consulting House anything is possible. SMEs, very surprisingly, on a general anti-abuse rule and extending the successful have been doing well recently in the area of exports. In Disclosure of Tax Avoidance Schemes regime to ensure particular, 27% of total exports to the European Union that even more schemes are disclosed. now come from this sector. However, I believe that we can do very much better. What plans do the Government Lord Clinton-Davis: I thank the Minister for that have to encourage even more small companies to reply. Is it not the case that thousands of extremely export? rich people are engaged in tax avoidance schemes and that the country is suffering a heavy loss as a result—some Baroness Wilcox: If anyone would like to look up £25 billion? Is there not a case for setting up an UKTI on the web to find out what is available to all-party committee to look into this atrocious situation, everyone, they will see that it is doing an absolutely which continues? What the Minister said deals with marvellous job. When I came to answer this Question, only part of the problem, not the whole problem. I was delighted to see just how much it was doing, including being able to provide bespoke services. Small Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I certainly agree with the and medium-sized businesses often need to gain an noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, about the seriousness all-round understanding of how to behave when they of the problem. That is why the Government—and get to another country, and that is why this service is HMRC in particular—are tackling it with all the available to them. It is subsidised, and businesses can available weapons. I stress that the Disclosure of Tax also have a review themselves. I welcome the noble Avoidance Schemes regime, which was introduced by Lord to the Dispatch Box. the previous Government in 2004, has been a successful part of that. Of the total tax gap, that is estimated to Lord Cotter: My Lords— be around £35 billion, £5 billion is estimated to be as a result of avoidance. It is important to be clear on the Baroness Buscombe: My Lords— figures. In relation to schemes of wealthy individuals, the Lord Broers: My Lords— K2 and Icebreaker schemes, which have had much recent publicity, are under investigation by HMRC. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord HMRC and, of course, the Government want to make Strathclyde): I think that we should hear from my sure that everyone, wealthy or not, pays a fair amount noble friend Lord Cotter. of tax. HMRC has rolled out some very specific 325 Taxation: Avoidance[28 JUNE 2012] Draft Communications Data Bill 326 initiatives within its High Net Worth Unit in order The Earl of Listowel: Is the Minister aware of the tackle even more vigorously the particular challenges job that charities do for their donors by picking out around individuals of high net worth. case histories of how their donations can make a difference to particular families and children? Might Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Does my noble friend not the Her Majesty’s Customs and Revenue do more agree that the best way to avoid people coming up with to inform taxpayers about the value for money that complex tax avoidance schemes is to have simpler, they get in paying for services? It could give a specific lower taxes—which will maximise revenue and obviate example of, say, a bright graduate, recruited into the the need for people to use their energies in this way—and teaching profession, making a difference to particular concentrate on creating wealth and growth in our children in an inner city area? The graduate could then economy? say, “I am so grateful for the money that trained me and for the difference that I have been able to make to Lord Sassoon: As a general proposition, I very these children”. There are many concrete examples of much share the view of my noble friend. the difference that taxpayers’ money makes to individuals, children and families. Lord Dubs: My Lords, I will put a suggestion to the Lord Sassoon: I agree with the noble Earl that the Minister and I ask him not to reject it out of hand but voluntary and charitable sectors make an enormous to think about it. My suggestion is as follows. Would it contribution. Often they deliver more cost-effective not be helpful if all tax returns were in the public and better quality services than public bodies and the domain? tax regime around charities supports that. That is precisely why we are so keen to drive forward philanthropy Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am always prepared to and a tax system to support it. I share the noble Earl’s consider every suggestion that comes up in your Lordships’ sentiments. House. However, I think that one is getting a little radical and I cannot promise him much early progress on it. Electoral Registration and Administration Bill Lord Dykes: Will my noble friend bear in mind that, First Reading as tax avoidance and evasion from the UK is at least 15 times greater than social security abuse and fraud, 11.37 am that the Government should therefore be 15 times more energetic in dealing with tax avoidance and The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first evasion than they are with social security? time and ordered to be printed.

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I do think that we are Business of the House comparing apples and pears. We will be vigorous on Motion to Approve both fronts. In relation to tax avoidance, HMRC has reassigned some £900 million of its expenditure within 11.37 am the spending round to tackle this issue. We should also Moved By Lord Strathclyde remember that while the tax gap in the UK is £35 billion—about 8% of liabilities—it compares well That leave be given to advance the motion to on an international comparison. For example, the approve the Draft Statutory Auditors (Amendment equivalent in the US is 14% and in Sweden 10%. So, of Companies Act 2006 and Delegation of Functions yes, there are big numbers to be played for, but good etc.) Order 2012 from Wednesday 4 July to Monday progress is being made. 2July. Motion agreed. Lord Davies of Oldham: The House may have been encouraged by the Minister’s initial constructive response but past practice does not seem to quite measure up to Draft Communications Data Bill his optimism. He commended the legislation passed Membership Motion by the Labour Government in 2004 under which accountants have to submit to Her Majesty’s Revenue 11.37 am and Customs any scheme which leads to tax avoidance. Moved By The Chairman of Committees Was this implemented in the famous case of the comedian Jimmy Carr? Did his accountant inform HMRC? If That the Commons message of 21 June be so, what was done about it? If he did not, when are the considered and that a Committee of six Lords be Government going to act? appointed to join with the Committee appointed by the Commons to consider and report on the draft Communications Data Bill presented to both Houses Lord Sassoon: My Lords, individual taxpayer on 14 June (Cm 8359) and that the Committee confidentiality is very important. It is the prime reason should report on the draft Bill by 30 November 2012; why we are certainly not going to see individual tax returns published and, therefore, I am not going to That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, comment on an individual case. That particular case the following members be appointed to the Committee: has had a great deal of airing in the past couple of L Armstrong of Ilminster, L Blencathra, B Cohen weeks. of Pimlico, L Faulks, L Jones, L Strasburger; 327 Draft Communications Data Bill[LORDS] English Cathedrals 328

That the Committee have power to agree with I want to reflect briefly on the importance of our the Committee appointed by the Commons in the English cathedrals. We could all agree that one comes appointment of a Chairman; closest to the soul and story of a nation in its great That the Committee have power to send for buildings. That is nowhere truer than in our wonderful persons, papers and records; English cathedrals, especially the pre-Reformation cathedrals and those ancient foundations that were That the Committee have power to appoint specialist designated cathedrals either in the 16th century or advisers; after. However, we are talking not just of noble historic That the Committee have leave to report from buildings of often unsurpassable beauty but of living, time to time; breathing, vibrant buildings, and it is important that That the Committee have power to adjourn from we recognise that. They are centres of worship; that is place to place within the United Kingdom; their primary purpose, and those of us who are Christians, That the reports of the Committee from time to particularly those of us who are members of the time shall be printed, regardless of any adjournment Anglican Church, will always regard that as their of the House; and primary purpose. That the evidence taken by the Committee shall, However, they are centres not just of worship but of if the Committee so wishes, be published. music, craftsmanship and of their individual communities. Motion agreed, and a message was sent to the Commons. I seek in this debate to underline the continuing contribution of the 42 diocesan cathedrals of England— plus, of course, the two royal peculiars of Westminster English Cathedrals Abbey and St George’s, Windsor, which are always Motion to Take Note taken together—to rejoice at what they are and what 11.38 am they represent, and to stress how crucial it is that their future should be secure. We rightly talk and behave as Moved By Lord Cormack if they belong to us all, and as cathedrals of the That this House takes note of the future of established church they do. Each week around 40,000 English cathedrals. people worship in our cathedrals; last Christmas season something like a million people worshipped in the Lord Cormack: My Lords, I beg to move that the cathedrals of this land. House notes the future of English cathedrals. In doing so, I cast no aspersions on cathedrals in Wales, Scotland However, it is not just for their services that we are or Northern Ireland: I wish to concentrate today on regard them as we do. Last week I had the honour of the cathedrals of the established Church of England. convening a meeting between parliamentarians from I am delighted to have this opportunity and I am both Houses and deans of English cathedrals. A number most grateful to those colleagues in all parts of your of your Lordships who are in the Chamber today were Lordships’ House who have put their names down to present at that meeting. It was a very interesting speak. I am particularly glad that I will be followed in occasion because we were reminded by those who have the debate by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, the the daily charge of our cathedrals what a key role they distinguished chairman of English Heritage, who has play in the social, cultural, civic and national life of made such a magnificent contribution to causes about England. We heard about Bradford Cathedral—not which we both care deeply. I am also very glad that the perhaps the most distinguished architecturally, although right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester has put it is a very fine building, but a church where people of his name down to make his maiden speech. I am sure all communities, and faith communities in particular, the House looks forward to what he has to say. are able to come together for mutual fellowship and After I leave the Chamber I shall be going to King’s sustenance. Cross to catch the train to Newark. It will stop at We heard about Wells Cathedral—Wells, that wonderful Peterborough and I will see the cathedral there. If I small city, surrounded by marvellous countryside that had the time, I could alight and go and admire the nevertheless has many problems within it. We heard tomb of Catherine of Aragon. I could even get a train from the dean how Wells ministers to that rural to Ely to see that glorious lantern tower rising above community.We were reminded about how often cathedrals the fenland. In fact, I shall get off at Newark and go to are the centres for concerts, exhibitions and graduation my home in Lincoln. ceremonies. Only three weeks ago I went to Southwell I hope that the House will forgive me if I beg leave Cathedral. There was a graduation ceremony taking to agree with Pugin, Ruskin and Alec Clifton-Taylor place when I arrived. I went to see the exhibition to that Lincoln is the fairest cathedral of them all. Of mark the 350th anniversary of the Book of Common course, if I stayed on the train, I could go to York, that Prayer and the Diamond Jubilee of Her Majesty the most magnificent and greatest in size of all our Gothic Queen. I talked to the dean and became conscious of cathedrals, and admire the wonderful stained glass how that cathedral, in a very small city, was the focal window. I could continue to Durham, where the noblest point for miles around. We were reminded at the Romanesque building in this country dominates the meeting last week of how, at moments of sadness and landscape— rejoicing, a cathedral was a place where people came “Half church of God, half castle ‘gainst the Scot”, together. One thought of Soham and Ely and, on a as Sir Walter Scott said. much happier note, every cathedral in England this However, I will not be able to do any of those things year has had a special service to mark the Diamond today. Jubilee of Her Majesty the Queen. 329 English Cathedrals[28 JUNE 2012] English Cathedrals 330

However, when all too easily we take for granted cathedral, has had to raise and spend £5 million over the beauty and dignity of our cathedrals and their the past five years and will need another £7 million in surroundings, we also tend to take for granted the the five years ahead. At Lincoln we will need £16 million glory of the music and the excellence of the craftsmanship. over the next 10 years. All this is in addition to the Even the fact that cathedrals continuously patronise £50,000 a week that it costs to keep the cathedrals the arts in the best possible way tends to be taken for open. It is a similar figure in Winchester and many granted, too. I was delighted when a couple of years other places. ago English Heritage published a document that English Heritage has been put in a very difficult concentrated on the new things which have been built position. It has had its own grant reduced. That has in and around our cathedrals, highlighting in particular meant that the carefully worked out strategy between the sculpture in Lincoln and the magnificent tower at it and the cathedrals has been to a degree undermined. Bury St Edmunds, which people now talk of as if it That is partly because of diversion of resources to the had been there for centuries. When we take these Olympic Games. We have to face up to that. The things for granted, we ought to remind ourselves that Heritage Lottery Fund has also had resources that they do not just happen; they all come at a price. might have been devoted to some of the causes that I am glad that we do not have the French system are dear to us in the Chamber today diverted to the where all the fabric of religious buildings is vested in Olympic project. I wish the Olympics every success but the state. That would be a great pity, and I know of no there has been a distortion of priorities in recent years dean and do not yet know of any bishop—perhaps I that needs to be put right. will be disabused today—who takes a different view. We must recognise in all of this the positive contribution The pride and sense of local patriotism that leads to that cathedrals make to the local and national economy, fundraising through a sense of belonging to a community music, craftsmanship and employment. Although it is are absolutely irreplaceable and beyond price. But we wrong to define the importance of our cathedrals in have to recognise that there is no automatic direct terms of tourism, we must remember that those who funding from the state to support our cathedrals, nor bring so much much-needed money and, indirectly, is there such funding from the Church Commissioners. employment to our country are attracted by our great They provide for the stipend of the dean and two buildings. They are attracted particularly to the great canons, but that is about all. To a large degree the country houses and cathedrals of this country. cathedrals are still self-financing. As the Dean of Lincoln Cathedral, Philip Buckler, said to me earlier I make a plea to the Minister that she should this week, cathedrals value their independence but not discuss this matter with the Chancellor, the Culture their isolation. Secretary and others. I would like to see a more generous interpretation of the VAT exemptions. That Things are better than they were. When I entered is crucially important. In Lichfield, the dean has pointed another place in 1970, there were no state grants at all. out to me that one project alone is likely to cost I served on the Historic Buildings Council and we another £500,000 as a result of recently announced were expressly forbidden to give grants to places of changes. That money is not easily found. worship. I introduced a Bill to provide state aid for parish churches. The campaign was successful and it I pitch my request at a very modest level. I would was followed by one for cathedrals. We are all glad and like £50 million provided as an endowment for the grateful for that. We are particularly grateful to English cathedrals of England over the next five years, with Heritage for what it has done, and I shall say a word or the money given to and channelled through English two more about that in a moment. But although Heritage, which has the expertise to liaise and to things are better than they were, there are still real distribute it. That would be a particularly appropriate problems. This year we had the VAT bombshell in the gesture in the year of the Diamond Jubilee, bearing in Budget. The Chancellor has responded and we are mind that the Queen is after all Supreme Governor of grateful. the Church of England. I do not think that many people in the land who appreciate things of enduring Listed places of worship will continue to benefit, beauty and wealth, whatever their religious persuasion, but let us remember that each cathedral is at the centre would begrudge that very modest sum. I would like to of a series of buildings. Almost every cathedral has a feel that we could have a promise that that will be close, just as we have our minster yard in Lincoln. The discussed. Of course, my noble friend cannot make an cathedral is responsible for the upkeep and maintenance exact promise at the Dispatch Box. of often incredibly important medieval and later buildings. The VAT exemption does not touch anything other There are two enduring images of this country than the actual place of worship. It is also limited to perhaps above all others: Constable’s painting of Salisbury the year 2015, so there is no certainty of continuity. with the spire above the meadows and, from a more That is a pity and a great worry to those who are recent period, the picture of St Paul’s in the Blitz, concerned with these issues. Money from the Heritage rising above the smoke. No nation can afford to call Lottery Fund, for which again we are all grateful, can itself civilised if it allows the spire of Salisbury or the go to interpretive schemes and to new extensions but dome of St Paul’s to be put at risk. not to the maintenance of the actual fabric of the cathedral. 11.53 am All this must be seen in a context where, as we Baroness Andrews: My Lords, it is a great privilege speak, Canterbury Cathedral, the mother church of to follow the noble Lord and to congratulate him on the Church of England, will need £50 million over the securing the debate. He has been an amazingly effective next five years. Lichfield, which used to be my diocesan champion for aspects of our heritage. I very much 331 English Cathedrals[LORDS] English Cathedrals 332

[BARONESS ANDREWS] story spans two decades, from the first fabric survey welcome what he said today and am grateful for the that English Heritage did in 1991, which revealed that generous remarks he made both about English Heritage £164 million needed to be spent on repair and rescue and my stewardship of it. I very much endorse what he over the next decade, to our updating survey in 2009, asked the Minister for; it is not easy for us to ask in which was repeated in partnership with the Association our own name for additional funding. To make such a of English Cathedrals and the Catholic Church’s case is commendable because English Heritage is known Patrimony Committee. In 1991, when we did the work, to have world-class expertise and judgment in these it was perfectly clear that many cathedrals, as measured affairs. If the House will allow me, I will talk a little against our buildings at risk register, were classified as about our work in respect of cathedrals. Of course, I being at risk of loss of their historic fabric—in short, declare my interest as chair. they were buildings at risk. In 2009, the survey revealed It is significant that the idea of the cathedral has a that the overall state of repair had improved dramatically. much wider currency than the notion of a building or How had this been done? Well, of course it has even of one faith. When we say that something is taken a great deal of money, and I will give your cathedral-like we mean that it is of extraordinary scale Lordships some figures. However, it has also required and splendour. It makes us wonder in awe at how it a great deal of partnership and focus to address what was constructed and by whom. When we see the traces needed doing after the alarming diagnosis in 1991. of those early and brilliant builders, designers and Funding was then made available from the Government, engineers, we understand that both faith and genius with which English Heritage constructed a dedicated transcend time. These places are indeed held in trust grant scheme, and that ran until the last offers were for ever and for everyone, so they obviously occupy made in 2009-10. Grants worth £48.6 million were the pinnacle of our work at English Heritage in many made available to 518 cathedrals. Indeed, five cathedrals, different ways. It is a privilege for me, as chair of which presented the greatest challenges—Salisbury, English Heritage, to have the opportunity to visit so Lincoln, Ely, Worcester and Liverpool—received almost many, and to do so in the company of the people who £20 million. The partners in this massive effort were love, cherish and know more about them: the deans, the Wolfson Foundation, which helped us toward the the conservation architects, the craftspeople, and indeed end of the scheme, and of course, the Heritage Lottery people from English Heritage itself, who are very fine Fund, which gave £45 million to over 100 cathedrals. historians. When I visit them I also get a sense of the We are, therefore, genuinely all in this together. I challenges that they face, and the ambitions that they pay tribute to the Cathedrals and Church Buildings hold for the future. In his speech, the noble Lord, Division of the Church of England—and in particular Lord Cormack, displayed a wonderful balance between to Janet Gough—for the partnerships that it has brokered celebration and concern about the sorts of issues that with partners such as the Wolfson Fund, the Pilgrim cathedrals now face, and the choices before them; Trust and others in order to finance the Cathedral choices that include opening the doors ever wider to Fabric Repair Fund. more diverse, more challenged communities, and the We have done different things. We at English Heritage responsibility for those communities that cathedrals address the urgent repairs: the high level stonework, have held over the centuries. the roofing and rainwater goods. It is not glamorous In my excursions I go to some very high places, to work, but my word, it is very important, because see for myself the work that is being done on the without that, nothing else can be achieved. Many of exteriors of cathedrals. The other day I was clinging the Heritage Lottery Fund projects have supported on to the Norman ironwork on the great Norman not only conservation, but wider public access, and the windows of Canterbury Cathedral. When I managed enjoyment and understanding of our cathedrals. For to get down from the scaffolding I went down to the example, £10.5 million went to the York Minster Revealed workshops to see how the glass is being conserved, project, which is not only securing the great east and saw the extraordinary delicacy of the work being window, but is showing every visitor who is interested done. I also recently crawled over the roof over the how glass is conserved, £2 million went to restore Chapter House of Westminster Abbey and saw how Birmingham’s cathedral graveyard to its 18th century the Victorian engineers had tried very hard to improve design and Durham cathedral has received a first stage on what their medieval predecessors had done, and pass to celebrate the Venerable Bede and the arrival of how they had found that the engineering genius of the the Lindisfarne Gospels. medieval craftsmen was in some ways so much superior Where are we now? The 2009 survey revealed that to their own. It is wonderful that we maintain those there had been dramatic improvements, but that another traditions of celebrating in stone the work of the £110 million was necessary over the new decade for craftsman. On the Chapter House finial you will now ongoing care and maintenance. For example, £63 million find the faces of the modern stonemasons who did the was necessary for just five cathedrals: Canterbury, work—including a Sikh, who led the team—looking Chichester, Lincoln, Salisbury and York. English Heritage very sternly up Whitehall. continues to be engaged with Lincoln because of the The work of restoration and repair—conservation scale of the challenge. We have recently given £750,000. of brick, glass, wood, paintings, silver and so much However, that grant has finished and we have turned else—is endless and expensive. The good news is that our focus to areas of equal concern to the Anglican our cathedrals, due to the loving care and craftsmanship church and other faiths—parish churches and churches of which the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has spoken, in the community—and the enormous challenge there, have never been in better shape. That makes the scale and I am pleased to say that Lincoln is now the only of the challenge for the future rather immense. The cathedral on the risk register. 333 English Cathedrals[28 JUNE 2012] English Cathedrals 334

So much has depended upon the skill and Andrews, because she has led the English Heritage craftsmanship of the people at work. I have the pleasure programme, not just in this field, of course, but in of seeing it regularly. For example, in Hereford, in a other fields, with great success and distinction. There lean-to shed, three apprentices—apprentices are often is wide appreciation, which I share, of the fact that female these days, and often young—working just as English cathedrals have an historic and continuing the medieval stone masons did, carve and do the role not only as centres for active Christianity in our facing work in front of all the visitors who cross the communities but as great historic buildings of wide precinct. It is indeed a medieval scene. These skills are architectural and cultural significance. being inspired and nurtured by our cathedrals, and I If I have any right to speak in this debate, it is as a am delighted to say that there are increasing numbers failed architect. I had to draw cathedrals as a student of schemes for training and recognising these crafts and then went on to be a senior member of the RIBA because historic building skills do not belong in the staff. More importantly, as an ordinary man in the past. They have as much potential for growth and are pew, I have had the most extraordinary experiences in as much of an assistance to our economy and to the various cathedrals. I witnessed the ordination of my creation of jobs as many of our other building crafts. two brothers in Guildford and Wells Cathedrals—an That is where cathedrals fit in to the national economic interesting contrast there. I remember taking my mother, challenge. They are places of prayer and watchfulness, who lost two of her much beloved elder brothers in the but they are also places capable of generating huge First World War, to a performance of the “War Requiem” prosperity. In 2004, it was estimated that their economic in Exeter Cathedral, which was both a great cultural impact was about £150 million. and religious occasion and very moving for both of us. Facing these future challenges is the way in which As a humble Anglican, I witnessed a great movement English Heritage wants to engage with cathedrals. Our forward when seven women priests were ordained in immediate responsibility is for the protection of the Truro Cathedral. fabric, hence our concern about metal theft and the guidance we have produced for cathedrals and places My only family connection with your Lordships’ of worship on how to tackle it, our concern about the House is my ancestor Bishop Jonathan Trelawny, who impact of VAT, which the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, was one of the seven bishops who were arraigned for described very concisely and well, and our continuing seditious libel and acquitted in Westminster Hall in concern with VAT. This is not a problem that is going 1688 and then triggered the Glorious Revolution. He to go away, particularly in relation to charities that are was described by James II as the most saucy of them looking after listed buildings with very little support all. I have suggested to my family that that might be an and scope and even to owners of historic homes. epitaph when I go. His picture is in the Peers’ Guest Room in the House. He is the one with the Beatles We also work with cathedrals to help them realise haircut at the far end. their highest ambitions for the future. For example, our work Creativity and Care celebrated Michael Hopkin’s Previously, during the Reformation—I am also a magnificent extension to Norwich Cathedral, but it failed historian—Thomas Cromwell persuaded Henry also points out that the mundane can be made beautiful: VIII that he could legitimise the nationalisation of the for example, the new fire doors at Winchester Cathedral. church, its cathedrals and its wealth, removing its The challenge to every cathedral today is to remake temporal power and so making it concentrate on the itself as the heart and spirit of the community and to spiritual needs of the nation. It may be thought from provide the cafes, lavatories, bookshops and educational the theme of this debate that there are those who think spaces that enable people to feel that they belong there it is now payback time. I do not believe that that is and understand the place and to become what Frank true, but nevertheless think that it is right for Parliament Field called, to take a real responsibility for the future of this great “wise and willing midwives to future glories”. heritage. We celebrated that in Creativity and Care. I remember There are some important dilemmas for both the the magnificent Tom Denny windows in Hereford church and Parliament. Our established church is the Cathedral and the magnificent new font in Salisbury established church only for England, as is apparent Cathedral. Our funding may not be what it was, but from the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. our spirit is as buoyant and passionate ever about As a good unionist, I think that those who represent pursuing the partnership that cathedrals want from other parts of the United Kingdom may have a legitimate English Heritage, and we are happy and proud to reason for expressing some concern about the treatment provide it. of the heritage of the different denominations and the different churches. As my noble friend said earlier, the Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, the timing cathedrals belong to us all, but there may be some is tight on speeches in this debate, so I would be very queries as to who “all” is in that respect. grateful if noble Lords will restrict their comments to That is not, however, the big dilemma for either the 10 minutes. church or the Government, because the cathedrals are an important part of our heritage. Yet I as an Anglican 12.03 pm and the church itself are proud of the independence of Lord Tyler: My Lords, I congratulate my noble the church from the state. We believe, I think rightly, friend very sincerely on obtaining this debate, and I that faith should be an important part of our national am delighted and humbled to take part. By comparison life but should not be nationalised by the lay state, the with him, I am a very ordinary Anglican. I am particularly whole body politic of which has to be strictly faith-neutral. grateful to be able to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Yet the church is rightly looking for recognition of its 335 English Cathedrals[LORDS] English Cathedrals 336

[LORD TYLER] United Kingdom feel. We deserve to do better by role in conserving priceless parts of our cultural and those who are responsible for such an important part physical heritage, as both my noble friend and the of our cultural, architectural and religious heritage. noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, have been saying. My noble friend referred to the French situation. I do not think that any of us want to emulate that. That 12.12 pm is the wrong way to go. The noble Lord’s French The Lord Bishop of Birmingham: My Lords, I am history is better than mine, as I know to my cost, but I grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for the think that the French situation goes back to Napoleon, opportunity to celebrate the good news of our English who wanted to separate dramatically the state from cathedrals. He will understand that if you want to find the church. There is no established church in France, a Birmingham cathedral, you are more likely to come yet there the state recognises its responsibility to its to it by the future HS2 rather than by a leisurely trip national heritage and therefore its major contribution up the east coast. What you will find there is a jewel by to the maintenance and conservation of all the French Thomas Archer, who built St Philip’s parish church on cathedrals. the highest point of the burgeoning new town that As has already been said, there is the important would fuel the industrial expansion of Britain. It was issue of the Government’s and therefore Parliament’s built in 1715. That building is now in the heart of the treatment of financial support for conservation. The commercial and professional centre of the largest UK noble Baroness referred, as did my noble friend, to the city outside London. It is an oasis of prayer to which VAT situation. I will spend only a couple of minutes people, whether visitors or citizens, come day by day on that to avoid repetition and to keep within my time to enjoy a beautiful space in which our new dean, limit. The VAT treatment of historic buildings, not Catherine Ogle, says you can do only one thing, and exclusively cathedrals, is a sorry saga that goes back have that enhanced by the magnificent Burne-Jones many years. In the excellent briefing from the Lords stained glass windows. Library on the future of English cathedrals, there are At the same time, as we will probably hear again no less than 16 pages of updates on the treatment of today, the choral tradition in Birmingham is of a very VAT on historic buildings, particularly churches and high standard, to the extent that Hamish Pringle recently cathedrals. The end of the brief from the House of commissioned a new choral work, based—the noble Commons Library says of the Listed Places of Worship Lord, Lord Cormack, will be pleased to know—on Grant Scheme, which is how the Government have the King James version of John, chapter 1, verses 1 to sought to square the circle of reducing the exemptions 14, which is available for parish churches as well as and then having to pay by other means: high days in the cathedral. The work of a new young “Further details on how the extended scheme will operate will composer, Alexander Campkin, is thus in the heart of be published shortly”. one of our great commercial cities. The confusion and lack of clarity continue to this day, Of course, as your Lordships may know, the number even weeks after the 2012 Budget, when it was thought of young people applying to join cathedral choirs has that this situation would be clarified and improved. increased by 6.8% over the past 12 months. That is the obvious but, across England, a living cathedral is a From my discussions with members of the chapters place of civic, cultural and inter-faith engagement. We of various cathedrals I know that they are looking find that no less so in Birmingham than across the principally for clarity at the moment. On this issue and country. It is also a springboard for, if I may indulge others, we are often told that we are all in it together. this phrase, growing confident Christians in our urban Yes, in a period of austerity it is difficult to find new and rural areas. You will find programmes not just resources, but the very simplicity or otherwise of such about engagement with the regional bankers and Chatham schemes as the Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme House seminars, following the difficulties in the debate is having a very disturbing effect on the chapters and about capitalism last year, but programmes that encourage on other organisations responsible for historic buildings, practising Christians at work to examine what it means not least some of the great parish churches, which are to live well in our local community. having an equally difficult time and with which I have also been in contact. That is just one example of what is happening all over the country in our 42 cathedrals. We are seeing, as I hope that this will not be thought to be so politically your Lordships will again know, a steady increase in correct as to be incorrect in your Lordships’ House, regular congregational attendance of some 3% a year. but I welcome the fact that we now see some women That has been going on over the past 10 years. being promoted into the responsible positions in the Furthermore, special events and regular public and chapters of our cathedrals. They bring new life, approaches civic events are even more popular than they have and, perhaps, intuition to managing the very difficult been for years. In 2011, for example, over 3,000 special situation that many of the chapters face. services attracted 1 million people, and 1.84 million The Church of England and those responsible for attended public or civic services. Our cathedrals have many other historic and religious buildings deserve approximately 12 million visitors a year. They have from Parliament at least an improvement in the clarity 15,000 volunteers, people who give up their time freely and speed with which decisions are taken by the to enable these places, about which we have heard that Government. In that respect at least, I hope my noble the heritage is so important, to be places of living friend’s debate today will draw the attention of the prayer, worship and community engagement. Over Government and my noble friend on the Front Bench 300,000 children attend our cathedrals for educational to the anxiety that many of us in many parts of the purposes during their curriculum learning in term-time. 337 English Cathedrals[28 JUNE 2012] English Cathedrals 338

As you look around the country—I hope that we Cathedral has become recognised as the place that will hear more about this from others in a moment—you brings together people from all faiths, a centre that will find particular things happening as the cycle of attracts civic services, cultural events and, indeed, only events goes on. We have heard that Coventry Cathedral last Saturday held our Armed Forces Day service. I has just celebrated its 50th anniversary. Of course, it hope the cathedral is seen as being there for everyone has a distinctive contribution, as so many cathedrals in the city and county and not just for Christian do. In this case, it is the Community of the Cross of worshippers. I believe that we are there to offer a Nails, a world-wide gift of reconciliation in a troubled variety of daily services, but also to expand our important world. In Winchester, the Winchester Bible is now mission work and support Bishop Tim in his work redisplayed. In Truro, the cathedral has been engaged throughout the diocese. in a county-wide renewal through Inspire Cornwall. You can imagine our great joy when, shortly before We have heard from several speakers already that Christmas, we learnt that Her Majesty wished to open this comes with a huge implication for resources. her jubilee celebrations with a visit to Leicester early When noble Lords reflect on the age, scale and complexity in March. Our city is truly multicultural. We have of the buildings, it will not surprise them that it is many faith groups within the community and we estimated that some £100 million over 10 years needs wished to organise a service of thanksgiving and to be spent across the country in ordinary cyclical celebration that recognised that diversity. The day for repairs. I am not talking about the marvellous things Her Majesty began at De Montfort University, from that are inspired by English Heritage and other grant- there to the cathedral, followed by lunch at St Martin’s making bodies, but £100 million over 10 years just to House and, finally, a walk through the main streets of keep thing in place. Indeed, since 1991, at least £250 million the city. It was truly a day to be long remembered and of repair works alone has been carried out in English at the heart of the day was the service at Leicester cathedrals. Of course, you can follow all this up in the Cathedral. Here, the second poorest cathedral was English Heritage Fabric Needs survey. We have been involved in a remarkable day. reminded that there is no core state funding for English I believe that all cathedrals, both large and small, cathedrals. I am not going to go down that route have a crucial place in today’s society. What we should myself but, while new work and exciting developments be is a place where tourists, believers and all those are funded generously, routine repairs are much more seeking quiet reflection feel equally at home. The difficult. There is still a gap between the cathedral’s cathedral is there for all, open to all, an inspiration to division grant and the overall cost that has to be paid all. Leicester Cathedral is open daily and holds services every year. throughout the day and, of course, is busy at weekends Cathedrals are enormous, historic, heritage, prayerful, too. However, it is more than simply a place of worship. worshipful places of sanctuary for people who are shy If one looks at the many projects that the cathedral of religion. They are places where people can come organises, one is amazed that so few can achieve so and rediscover wonder and awe, both through art and much. music, and, simply, the power of prayer. Their role in We are a centre for Christian education and a base the life of our nation’s cities is immeasurable: civic, for outreach within the city and county, supporting a cultural and spiritual. It will be a huge boost to the wide range of community projects. Christ’s calling confidence and morale of all these people who are challenges us to go out in his name and we do just involved, hundreds of thousands of them, in our that. In Leicester, we support particular projects working cathedrals to hear Her Majesty’s Government give a among asylum seekers and refugees. We run a street ringing endorsement to our cathedrals in every aspect pastor scheme at the weekends. The Leicester Cathedral of public policy. community has developed links with the local ecumenical church charity, The Bridge: From Homelessness to 12.20 pm Hope, which recognises significant need in the city where the number of homeless has increased over the Baroness Byford: My Lords, I must begin by declaring past few months. my interest as I have recently been appointed chairman These are but a few of the projects undertaken by a of Leicester Cathedral council. I congratulate my noble small staff of only 11.98 full-time equivalents, supported friend Lord Cormack on successfully achieving this by some 138 volunteers. Our religious education officer balloted debate. He has spoken clearly and passionately continues work with primary schools, through the about the important role of English cathedrals in faith journey, which links the work of the cathedral today’s society. with our Sikh, Jain and Buddhist near neighbours, Lincoln Cathedral, built in 1092, stands high on the enabling members of those communities to talk about hill overlooking the city of Lincoln and is, indeed, an their own faith journey and to share in our experiences. impressive building. Its dean claims that it is arguably The work of our choristers outreach programme has the finest gothic building in Europe. It attracts visitors enabled 14 schools to host weekly workshops, and from around the world. Some come to see its historic more than 500 children came to the cathedral for one past and enjoy its architecture while others come to of these events. find a place of peace and quiet to reflect and pray. None of this important work could be achieved Leicester Cathedral cannot begin to compete as it without the enthusiasm and dedication of both stipendiary was only back in 1927 that the parish church of and lay members. I would like to record my thanks to St Martin’s became our cathedral. What we can do is our dean, Vivienne Faull, and her team for their hard offer a warm welcome to all our visitors, whether they work, faith and dedication. The cathedral is a real are people of faith or none. Over the years, Leicester focus in the city and the county, so it is not surprising 339 English Cathedrals[LORDS] English Cathedrals 340

[BARONESS BYFORD] calm and beauty that the cathedrals afford us. The that it has been the chosen venue for major services in magnificence of the King James Bible and the cadences the city and county, as the right reverend Prelate the of Cranmer’s collects—on which the most reverend Prelate Bishop of Birmingham said was true in Birmingham. the Archbishop of Canterbury made some very The St Patrick’s Day service, our Armed Forces Day illuminating remarks in a recent talk—are all part of service, which was held last Saturday, the civic service the ceremony of our national life and our private to remember 9/11, 10 years on, and the High Sheriffs solace. Of course, there are other vernacular versions, service for Leicestershire and Rutland are but a few which no doubt rightly have their place. that I have time to include. Forty of the cathedrals of the Church of England For all this activity, the cathedral faces real challenges, are grade 1 listed buildings. Canterbury and Durham many of them revolving around finance. Unlike some Cathedrals are world heritage sites. Our cathedrals are cities, the Leicester Cathedral parish community is a fountainhead of music. After 60 years, I am still haunted small, and we have constantly to look at new ways of by the extraordinarily beautiful anthem “Remember running what is a business. That may sound very Now Thy Creator”—the words of Ecclesiastes set to commercial but, in truth, we have to look at what we music by Charles Steggall and sung by the choir in do and how we finance our work. This short debate Winchester Cathedral—and uplifted when I remember has given me the opportunity to talk about some of the sounds of Stanford in B flat. When I was Minister the work undertaken by a very small cathedral. It for the Arts and Heritage, a brace of deans came to see would be lovely to share the experience, and perhaps me from Hereford and Southwark to share with me the difficulties, of Lincoln. But Leicester Cathedral their anxieties about the cathedral choir schools and has carved out for itself a real role, and will continue the problems of maintaining them. Sadly the Arts Council its work into the future. was deeply uninterested in their problem but the cathedrals found other ways and I understand that now, every 12.26 pm week, more than 1,000 boys and 800 girls sing choral services. My successors did better than I did. I am pleased Lord Howarth of Newport: I add with great pleasure to say that the Government contributed £1 million a my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack—I can year, over four years, from 2008, towards the chorister hardly restrain myself from calling him my noble outreach programme to enable choirmasters and choristers friend—for providing us with this opportunity to reflect to visit schools. Some 60,000 children have had that on the contribution that cathedrals make to our national benefit and around 1,600 teachers have been trained in life and how it can be sustained. For me, personally, it how to teach choral singing. It would be good if, even is axiomatic that it is a very important question. I grew in these straightened times, public funds could be up in the cathedral city of Winchester and was educated found for a number of scholarships to enable children at the cathedral choir school. I now live in the cathedral from poor families to attend cathedral choir schools. city of Norwich, where we have two great cathedrals. Not only do we have the magnificent historic Anglican The libraries and archives of our cathedrals are cathedral, where the right reverend Prelate the Bishop great repositories of the national memory. In Norwich, of Wakefield was dean before his translation, but we Camberwell College of Arts students have the opportunity are also blessed with the presence of the great Roman of a placement in which they survey the bindings of Catholic cathedral of St John the Baptist. Canon the books in the great cathedral library. The noble Duckett wrote to the 15th Duke of Norfolk to tell him Lord, Lord Cormack, drew attention to the importance of, of cathedrals in sustaining heritage and traditional “our present great need of a new church”, skills in this country and I pay tribute to him personally and ventured the exclamation and prayer: for all that he has done to support the maintaining of “Oh, that God would inspire your grace to build one for us”. these skills. And that is exactly what happened. George Gilbert The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham Scott Jr was the architect—he was the son of George drew our attention to the impressive statistic that Gilbert Scott Sr, the architect of St Pancras station, 300,000 children attended educational events at cathedrals which many people also believe to be a cathedral. The in 2011. There is, I would think, no subject in the great church in Norwich was constructed between national curriculum that it is not possible to teach by 1884 and 1910 in a consistently pure and beautiful using the resources that cathedrals provide. Of course early English gothic style, and was finally consecrated many of our cathedrals—in fact I would imagine all of as a cathedral in 1976. them—are engaged in outreach and Christian care Between my beginning and my end, I had the work. I mention simply one example: the day centre privilege to represent another cathedral city, Newport for homeless and vulnerable people within the precincts in Monmouthshire. We were in the diocese of of Sheffield Cathedral. We use the phrase “cathedral Monmouthshire, and St Woolos is the cathedral of cities”. Cathedrals of this country engage and express that diocese. the civic and the public realm. Again, the right reverend For centuries, the cathedrals have shaped and expressed Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham told us that no the spiritual, cultural and civic life of our country. fewer than an estimated £1.84 million people attended They continue to do so and, as has been noted, they civic and public events in cathedrals in 2011. It is also contribute to our economy in attracting very large interesting that the Occupy movement decided that it numbers of tourists. I am not a religious person, and it would base its protests at four English cathedrals—not is hardly for me to talk of the spiritual value of our perhaps a very happy experience for all concerned; the cathedrals, but non-believers also value the continuity, Jubilee celebrations more recently were a much better one. 341 English Cathedrals[28 JUNE 2012] English Cathedrals 342

In Britain, as the noble Lords, Lord Cormack and I do not want to overrun my time so I will not add Lord Tyler, reminded us, it is not our practice to to what other noble Lords have said about VAT. nationalise our sacred and historic buildings—at any However, I hope that the Government will strenuously rate, not since the time of Thomas Cromwell. The renew negotiations with the European Union to enable cathedrals are independent ecclesiastical corporations the anomaly between VAT on repairs and VAT on and take responsibility for themselves. However, there alterations to be removed. As the Government have are also responsibilities that should properly fall upon graciously reconsidered some aspects of their recent the community and the state. The noble Baroness, Budget, I hope that they will also reconsider their very Lady Andrews, told us of the 2009 cathedral fabric lamentable decision to increase VAT on alterations to needs survey, which found that more than £100 million- 20 per cent because that will hurt cathedrals very worth of repairs needed to be planned for over the badly, particularly when they come to develop educational next 10 years. I understand that the buildings division or visitor facilities within their listed buildings. I look of the Church of England is only able to contribute forward, therefore, to a fully considered statement of around £750,000 towards those needs, so there is a the Government’s view of their responsibilities towards decanal cash flow problem of formidable proportions our cathedrals when the Minister replies. in a country that is not getting any richer. The cathedrals, as we have all acknowledged, provide Lord Newby: For the benefit of the House, I remind immense benefits to the secular realm. What is the your Lordships that this is a strictly time-limited debate reciprocal responsibility of the secular realm? The and that when the clock says “10” that means that the communities, of which Cathedrals are at the heart, time limit is up. rise to this responsibility. Congregations and wider circles of local people are very happy to contribute 12.37 pm what they can. I pay a tribute to the noble Lord, Lord The Lord Bishop of Worcester: My Lords, I am MacGregor of Pulham Market, who leads the fundraising delighted to have the opportunity to make a maiden campaign for Norwich Cathedral. He very much regrets speech today. I begin by expressing my heartfelt thanks that he cannot be here today because he is engaged in to your Lordships for the welcome that I have received. another public duty. The capacities of local communities I am very grateful to them, as I am to the staff of the to raise money to support their cathedrals of course House, for their help. vary. There is an inescapable responsibility on the state. To make a maiden speech only three days after Over 19 years, English Heritage’s grants for cathedrals being introduced into the House might be thought of scheme contributed, I believe, £52 million towards this as being just a little precipitous. However, I like to very important purpose, latterly supported, with its think that it is providential that this Motion concerning customary imagination and generosity, by the Wolfson cathedrals should appear today, since cathedrals are Foundation. English Heritage has now been placed in very close to my heart and they have been, literally, for a position in which it cannot afford to continue with a most of my life. I spent most of my teenage years fund dedicated for this purpose. The Heritage Lottery living almost within sight of Canterbury Cathedral Fund has also contributed £44.5 million to help the and then three years living only yards from Durham cathedrals since 1995. As our compatriots in these Cathedral as an undergraduate. I was ordained in the desolate times are consoling themselves by playing the cathedral of the Bishop of Chichester, whose place I lottery in some considerable numbers, we can anticipate take in this House, and who gave stalwart service to that heritage lottery funding will be quite buoyant, so both his cathedral and the House. I ministered for that is a source of hope. seven very happy years as a canon residentiary at Ely However, it is not enough for the Government to and now live closer to my Cathedral in Worcester than rely upon the lottery to fulfil the public obligation. anyone else in what I believe is the only private dwelling The Public Accounts Committee in 2009 urged that that has ever appeared on a bank note. the Government should provide core funding for our It could be argued that cathedrals loom larger, cathedrals, on the analogy of the grant in aid that the literally in every sense, in my life than in the lives of Government provide for the national museums. If we most people. However, my experience tells me that think about it, it is strange to reflect that the National cathedrals are a crucial and enriching part of the lives Railway Museum in York is subsidised by the Government of countless people who have not had the good fortune to enable it to maintain free entry, whereas York to be as closely associated with them as have I. Further, Minster, without public support, has felt it necessary cathedrals are a living and precious part of our to charge. I admire the National Railway Museum in architectural, historical, cultural and spiritual heritage. York but which of these institutions is of greater I support pretty much everything that has been said cultural importance to our country? in the debate so far, and I hope that that will be my No doubt the Minister will say to me that we have a continuing experience in debates in this House. I take terrible problem with the deficit and that we have to exception to only one thing—I cannot agree with Alec cut it. But I would say that, when there is such a Clifton-Taylor’s assessment of Lincoln Cathedral, glorious radical recasting of public expenditure, we need to though that building is, but I would refer your Lordships think deeply about the proper responsibilities of the to his statement that medieval cathedrals are, state. I hope that the state will accept that it has an “the supreme expression of English architecture”. inescapable responsibility to ensure that there is a I am sure that he would have had a good word to say decent public contribution to support our cathedrals. also about Birmingham, Wakefield and Leicester The public assume that there is. They would be shocked Cathedrals—as he would about our great 19th century to know that there was not. and 20th century Catholic cathedrals. 343 English Cathedrals[LORDS] English Cathedrals 344

[THE LORD BISHOP OF WORCESTER] reference has already been made in this debate. The My own cathedral of Worcester stands at the heart majority employs a qualified education officer and of a diocese that has been in existence since 680. I am thousands of children are welcomed each year for its 113th bishop and the present glorious building outstanding learning experiences. Cathedrals have dates from 1184 when my sainted predecessor Wulfstan vast educational potential, much of which is tapped, oversaw the demolition of the Saxon building. The as a result of their architectural, historical and iconic view of it from Worcester county cricket ground, social significance, their aesthetic and artistic merit, standing high above the River Severn, is famous the and the fact that they are the home to vibrant world over and is dear to countless people in Christian communities. Last year, more than 3,000 Worcestershire and Dudley—the area now covered by educational events were laid on by cathedrals. It is not the diocese of Worcester—who feel committed to their just children and young people who benefit. Debates mother church. Many of them will, with me, have the and lectures are laid on for adults about issues of opportunity to welcome Her Majesty the Queen to the common concern to church and society. Only just over cathedral in just a few days’ time. a week ago the Director of Public Prosecutions gave a The fabric of the building, like that of most English lecture in Worcester Cathedral on the law and the cathedrals, is arguably in a better state than it has ever media, in which he considered the question of the been, thanks to mammoth fundraising and indispensable public interest. grants from English Heritage, to which reference has I could wax lyrical about cathedrals for a very long been made. What will happen in the future, with no time but the basic point that I want to emphasis is that direct government funding, is a source of anxiety, to cathedrals offer something that is most definitely in say the least. The problem with the lottery is that it is the public interest in all sorts of areas. They are a as its name suggests. I describe myself as an expert in precious part of the inheritance of this nation and lottery applications—all of them failed. enrich our common life immeasurably. In conclusion, Cathedrals are not just architectural gems but hugely I repeat my thanks for the welcome that I have received significant active symbols of our common religious from your Lordships and urge that this House should and spiritual heritage. They are visited each year by indeed take note of the future of English cathedrals increasing numbers of people with varying religious but, in so doing, I urge that they should be valued, affiliations. I think it could be said that all these cherished and supported. people have a real, if not expressly articulated, sense of the spiritual. Cathedrals have been described by the 12.47 pm novelist Susan Hill as being: Lord Black of Brentwood: My Lords, it is a great “At the still point of the turning world”. honour to be able to follow the right reverend Prelate Reading the prayers left by those who have lit the Bishop of Worcester and to congratulate him on a candles in cathedrals makes it clear that they can formidable and elegant maiden speech that blended so enable deep feelings to surface and be articulated. perfectly his own experiences with the challenges of Cathedrals generate many millions of pounds for our public policy. We can see from his speech what a great economy but are not, of course, simply tourist attractions. asset he is going to be to your Lordships’ House. They are vibrant hubs of culture and spirituality. Last Indeed, at a time when Members of this House year in Worcester, the ticket sales for the Three Choirs are under a degree of scrutiny, the right reverend festival, the oldest of its kind in the world dating from Prelate exemplifies the very characteristics that make the early 18th century, were higher than they have ever this House so special, for his range of interests and been. That was just one event in very many that expertise is as diverse as it is deep. In fact, he began his included drama and art, as well as much fabulous career as a chemistry teacher, which will suit him well music and civic occasions. for our debates on scientific issues. He then became a At the heart of the life of our cathedrals lies their teacher at Harrow School, trying to instil into his choral tradition, which is one of their most glorious pupils—he would have failed with me—the basics of and remarkable features. I remind your Lordships that chemistry. That will make him a natural for debates on until the Reformation, choral foundations were universal education, an area on which he touched today. After throughout Europe, but England is now the only Harrow, he spent six years as vicar of an inner city country left with such a tradition intact. In France, parish at St Luke’s, Wallsend, giving him a perspective Spain, Germany and Italy they have all but disappeared. on inner city issues and social responsibility that will In Italy, an English choir had to be imported to be much valued in this House. He has a deep interest Palestrina’s own church, the Santa Maria Maggiore in in international affairs, too. As a longstanding member Rome, to mark a significant anniversary of his death. of the World Development Movement, he will be a In this country, cathedral music has not only survived natural in dealing with international development issues. against the financial odds but improved. Alongside Finally, he is president of Worcestershire County Cricket the daily round of worship, it enriches myriad special Club; he is thereby a shoe-in for sports debates. In services and events to which thousands come, and short, the right reverend Prelate is an all-rounder during which architecture, words and music combine whose contributions we look forward to with great to provide a feast for the senses which feeds the whole eagerness. person at a much deeper level than can be articulated We are all indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, in mere words. for securing this debate, which has relevance and Cathedrals are the places where bishops have importance for every region of our country, every their teaching seats, and they are great centres of diocese and every parish. I am particularly pleased to education for people of all faiths and none, to which take part because it gives me an opportunity to talk 345 English Cathedrals[28 JUNE 2012] English Cathedrals 346 about two cathedrals in Essex close to my heart, and Chelmsford, an innovative choral foundation, formed what they can tell us about the future of cathedrals in 1994, supports the work of its excellent choir, which across England. brings world-class skills right to the heart of local I am from Brentwood, which is at the heart of the communities. As the very reverend Peter Judd, Dean Roman Catholic diocese of Brentwood, a diocese that, of Chelmsford, has said, quite uniquely, is exactly coterminous with the Church “when the psalm is being sung … one is privileged to be in the of England diocese of Chelmsford. Both towns have presence of something exquisite—rather like standing in front of exceptionally fine cathedrals. In Brentwood, the cathedral an utterly beautiful painting in the National Gallery, except our dates back to 1861, when it was just a parish church. It Choir does not sing in central London, it is happening here in Chelmsford every day”. was raised to cathedral status in 1917. The cathedral in Chelmsford has more venerable roots, with the first Cathedral choirs perform three vital roles in our church on its site founded over 800 years ago. It cultural life. First, they keep alive and flourishing the became a cathedral in 1914, when the diocese of tradition of English church music, which is one of this Chelmsford was created to meet the needs of the country’s shining artistic achievements, dating back to urban population east of London. Both cathedrals the remarkable output of Byrd, Tallis, Gibbons and have changed considerably over time. Brentwood’s Purcell, and in more recent years, of course, Wesley, magnificent cathedral was substantially enlarged between Bairstow, Parry and Vaughan Williams. Our cathedrals, 1989 and 1991 in the Italianate style by Quinlan Terry. choirs and organists have all played a central role in Taking his inspiration from the classical Renaissance, fostering that tradition. In the 18th century, a choirboy this cathedral is one of the master architect’s greatest from Gloucester Cathedral, William Hayes, went on works and one of the finest buildings in Essex. to become a significant composer and a pivotal figure in English musical history. Three centuries later, one Chelmsford’s cathedral has grown more organically, of our greatest choral composers, Herbert Howells, an with new stained glass windows in the 19th century alumnus of the RCM, learnt his musical trade from along with a rebuilt nave and enriched porch in 1953 the organist Herbert Brewer, also at Gloucester Cathedral. to mark the bonds between America and Britain in the Charles Wood had a similar start to musical life at Second World War. It now has, in the 21st century, a Armagh Cathedral. Their experience, and that of many magnificent collection of modern art. others, testifies to the importance of local music teaching Both these buildings underline how cathedrals grow and experience in nurturing great national talent. alongside their communities, reflecting the changes in society and constantly updating themselves, as the Secondly, they provide for those who worship at noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, to remain relevant, cathedrals, or are simply visiting them, something vibrant and the focal point of the diocese they serve. magical and mystical that lies beyond mere words. They enhance the experience of visiting our cathedrals, The Bishop of Brentwood, Bishop Thomas McMahon, as indeed so many other churches, in a way nothing a man of huge importance to civic life in the towns else can. Great buildings need great music. And the and villages of Essex, has written that a cathedral music—some of the most sublime works ever written— takes its name from the Greek word for chair, cathedra, needs these buildings. from which the bishop presides as the “shepherd of the diocese”. As well as being the parish church for Thirdly, they provide real beacons of artistic excellence those who live nearby, cathedrals stand as the fulcrum in their local communities. They attract new audiences of worship for local people. In Bishop Thomas’s words, to cathedrals, encourage local composers, act as a they stand there, magnet for visiting musicians and provide a cultural experience that nothing else can in the same way. As “to proclaim and celebrate the Christian mysteries in an environment Professor Robin Leaver, an internationally recognised of excellence and beauty”. hymnologist, has so pithily put it, church musicians In other words, they are of vital importance to the are not simply there to produce, cultural and spiritual fabric of our nation and need to be cherished. “nice noises at various points in worship”, However, cathedrals, as we have heard, are not just but are cultural ambassadors in their own right. Equally about buildings so much as the people who are in importantly, cathedral choirs often give boys, and them. The central point I want to raise, and one on increasingly girls, their first taste of high-level music- which a number of noble Lords, including the noble making. Many go on to successful musical careers. Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, have touched, is There can be no better start to a musical life than about the importance of church music and the choirs experience in a cathedral choir. and organists who provide it. Our cathedral choirs are However, cathedral choirs face challenges as much as much a part of the rich heritage that nurtures our as our cathedrals do. They can prosper only if they communities as the buildings they sing in. At this have secure and comfortable environments in which to point I must declare an interest as a member of the practise. As the English Heritage Creativity and Care Council of the Royal College of Music. report, which we have heard about today, highlighted: Both the cathedrals I have talked about have prestigious “It takes resources to maintain a proud and ancient choral choirs. Brentwood’s was formed in 1984 and over the tradition: resources and space”. years has undertaken tours throughout Europe. Just a They also need a functioning organ—perhaps the few weeks ago, a young man who is a member of the most expensive musical instrument to maintain—and choir and a Brentwood schoolboy, Harry John, was dedicated teachers who so often work on a purely one of just 40 young people in the Diamond Choir voluntary basis. I was delighted that the right reverend that sang for Her Majesty the Queen at St Paul’s. In Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham talked about volunteers. 347 English Cathedrals[LORDS] English Cathedrals 348

[LORD BLACK OF BRENTWOOD] been moving around with Cuthbert’s relics and the They are of such huge importance. A cathedral such Lindisfarne Gospels—which we look forward to as Chelmsford depends on 480 volunteers to keep it welcoming home soon, at least briefly—and finally going and we need to do more to cherish them. stopped after coming to a bend in the River Wear and Above all, there is a challenge to ensure that there getting stuck behind a milkmaid and a dun cow. When are sufficient numbers of church musicians entering Cuthbert’s body refused to go any further at that the profession to meet the needs not just of the cathedrals point, they took this as a sign that they had chosen the but the parishes that form the bedrock of the diocese. right place. I am delighted that they chose such a Across the world, more churches are chasing fewer beautiful spot, although I am sure the right reverend music graduates. The teaching of music, particularly Prelate the Bishop of Worcester would be with me in in our state schools, is a real issue here, although I saying that every now and again one might wish they suspect that is a subject for another debate. had chosen a flatter spot. I was delighted to hear his maiden speech. It was eloquent and articulate, and I Many of our cathedrals are, quite rightly, moving can only conclude that his undergraduate studies must now to secure the future of church music and they have served him well. He is most welcome. need our support. I think in particular of the new music resource centre at Wells Cathedral, which we Durham Cathedral is more than an architectural have heard about today, and the new Song School at marvel; it is a sacred space with a wonderful choir, Chester Cathedral. These are just the sorts of initiatives which sings at eight services a week. However, that that are required to secure the future of cathedral tradition is not just for a privileged minority. Durham choirs and of the proud English choral tradition. Cathedral set up a wonderful music outreach programme, The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has done us a in which choristers went out to local primary schools huge service by securing this debate today.Our cathedrals, across the county and sang for the children and then with their choirs, are one of the jewels in the crown of with the children. Over a period of weeks, the children our national life. It is right that we celebrate them, would learn the music and then come together with recognise the challenges that lie ahead and seek to other schools in a wonderful concert in the cathedral, identify ways in which they can be supported. As the which would be full of proud mums and dads who had right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham said never expected to hear their children sing music of this earlier, a ringing endorsement from your Lordships’ quality in a space such as that. It has been a wonderful House today would be a splendid way to start. developmental experience. In fact, one child who came to the cathedral with his school in exactly that fashion saw this, went back and told his mum and dad that this 12.58 pm was what he wanted to do and some time later—two Baroness Sherlock: My Lords, I am delighted to years ago—he became BBC Young Chorister of the take this opportunity to speak today about Britain’s Year. Since then, he has sung in Downing Street, at the best building. I agree with a great deal of what the Albert Hall and with Katherine Jenkins, and all because noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, with the exception the school visited Durham Cathedral. of his very touching, if ultimately misguided, conviction The cathedral draws people to itself from all over that Lincoln Cathedral is the fairest in the country. the world but it is also a centre for Durham itself. I You need not take my word for it—in a survey by the went to Durham in 2006 to take a course at the Guardian last year, Durham Cathedral came out with university for just a year and I am still there—it has a ringing success, with 62% of people voting it the best that effect on people. When I came to the end of the building in Britain. That capitalised on its success a course, I graduated in the cathedral—an experience decade earlier, when the BBC had a similar poll and that many people have. During the Lumiere festival—a again Durham Cathedral was Britain’s favourite building. festival of light—the cathedral was completely filled It is not hard to see why. One of the cathedral canons with sculptures of light and flame, so anyone who described one of the joys of her ministry as watching thinks that our cathedrals are overly risk-averse or in one of the many parties of schoolchildren who arrive. any way scared by health and safety issues should visit They come in a long crocodile, with two children hand Durham. in hand at the front. As the first children walk in, they Some 120,000 people came to the Lumiere festival gasp at the sheer scale and stop dead, so that the but 600,000 go through Durham Cathedral every year. crocodile piles like dominoes as the rest keep coming For me, one of the great highlights of the year is the in behind them. They struggle to make sense of the annual Durham Miners’ Gala—or the “Big Meeting”, sheer splendour of the space. It had a very similar as it is known locally—every July, when thousands of effect on me the first time I walked in. Strangely, the people descend on the city from across the county. nave of the cathedral is not just enormous, it is somehow This is where the traditional mining culture and trade intimate. The current and rather wonderful Dean of union heritage of the county are celebrated. Even Durham described the nave as being, though the pits have closed, people come from every “large enough to lift our vision but intimate enough to hold us village and march through with their own brass band and affirm our humanity”. and banner. These are still markers of identity for the In some ways, that is what cathedrals do in general, communities and the people in them. There is a service not simply architecturally. in the cathedral, the bands are marched in and the As many noble Lords will know, Durham Cathedral banners are paraded. When there is a new banner, the was built on the site where monks bearing the body of community brings it in for the bishop to bless. Last the great northern saint, St Cuthbert, came and finally year, regrettably, we saw the 60th anniversary of the settled after travelling to escape Vikings. They had colliery disaster at Easington, in which 83 men and 349 English Cathedrals[28 JUNE 2012] English Cathedrals 350 boys lost their lives. The Easington banner was trimmed However, I urge any noble Lord or anyone reading this with black and it was brought in so that the cathedral debate who has an interest in this matter to step into could mark that aspect of the community experience their cathedral, if they have not done so previously, to as well. see what it can provide in an era when the gathering As the right reverend Prelates have said, people also institutions in our communities are under threat. These bring their individual and private troubles to the cathedral. can be spaces that welcome everybody, raise our vision Every day, many people come in to light candles, write and, at the same time, affirm and hold us in our prayers or just sit in the quiet space. The volunteer humanity. chaplains at Durham, as elsewhere, hear all kinds of stories. There might be a soldier coming in to pray 1.05 pm before being sent to Afghanistan, or perhaps bereaved The Lord Bishop of Wakefield: My Lords, I cannot people who do not have a faith but do not know where hope to come up to the same standards of energy and else to take their grief come to the cathedral, trusting enthusiasm that we have just had from the noble that they can somehow be held in that space. That is Baroness, Lady Sherlock. However, I begin by saying what a cathedral can be and what Durham certainly that, as with my right reverend friend the Bishop of is—at the heart of a community to celebrate its joys, as Worcester, whose excellent maiden speech we have just the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, and to hold heard, cathedrals lie very close to my heart, so I am people in times of sorrow, to be with them and to very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for provide a way for them to express that sorrow and be making this debate possible. held as a community. I have spent 15 years of my life working in two very However, none of this is easy. It takes hundreds of different cathedrals. For seven years I was a residentiary staff and hundreds of volunteers. All kinds of people canon at Portsmouth, a parish-church cathedral in an come through the cathedral. I am a tutor at St Chad’s urban setting right next to the great naval dockyard. College at Durham University. We, like every other Then, for eight years, I was dean of Norwich, a college, have our annual St Chad’s Day service in the magnificent medieval cathedral, to which we have cathedral. During the service, students bring to the already heard reference, and one of the two greatest altar to be blessed emblems of their everyday student Romanesque churches in England. I am not vying for life, including sporting equipment, musical instruments, it to be the top one but it is certainly as good as even the odd book, and this year, for no obviously Durham. discernible reason, a life-size cut-out of President Obama. Cathedrals offer an extraordinary variety of experience, All aspects of life are taken up and can be blessed and as I shall note later. There is one brief vignette which celebrated. focuses something of this and which for me seemed It seems to me that that role of community-gathering bizarre. During my time at Norwich, we celebrated the by institutions at the heart of our communities is one 900th anniversary of the diocese and cathedral. Anglia that the state has a responsibility to support in some Railways kindly agreed to call one of its locomotives way. Despite the fact that this is Britain’s best-loved “Norwich Cathedral”. That was very good news, but building, was founded more than 900 years ago and is, it was the final denouement of this tale to which I as my noble friend Lord Howarth of Newport said, on want to advert. At the end of the year, I was invited to a UN World Heritage Site, it does not have any regular Norwich station for the denaming ceremony. That government funding. The £60,000 a week that it costs seemed to me quite baffling. Most of the Anglia to maintain the cathedral and its associated buildings Railways locomotives took their names from significant and ministries has to be found by the incredibly places in the north-west of England, where they had enterprising but, surely by now, tiring dean and chapter. previously toiled—names such as “Vulcan Foundry” I applaud them for being able to do this without and “City of Preston”. Here was “Norwich Cathedral”, charging the public to come into the cathedral. It is an named after the single greatest focus of tourism in incredibly difficult struggle every single week. However, East Anglia, with more than half a million people if people had to pay to get in, it would be hard to see passing through our doors each year, and we were either how the individuals would feel able to use it in taking the name off the locomotive. That is an interesting the way that I have described or how it could fulfil that reflection on how people do not always see the significance role at the heart of the community which is so powerful of these great buildings. for our city. For all the talk of the decline of religion, cathedrals When the Minister considers her response to the remain enormous magnets for all sorts and conditions debate, can she give us any comfort at all regarding of people, as we have already heard. In a recent essay how the state can recognise its responsibilities? I thought on church growth, it was noted that alongside the that the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, growth in the size of congregations, mentioned earlier was excellent and I would encourage her to reflect on by my right reverend friend the Bishop of Birmingham, it. Perhaps she could start an endowment to which the spend was £91 million in cathedrals alone, and the others could be encouraged to contribute. Durham is total impact on the wider localities was more than a very poor county, yet people find the money to £150 million. However, church growth just touches the celebrate the cathedral. However, the cathedral is not fringes of the impact of these places. They are the just for us; it is for the entire nation and it is one of contemporary equivalent of common ground. They Europe’s architectural treasures. are open to all who come—all can graze in their Finally, I know that the Minister has an interest in pastures, as it were. Indeed, the variety of expressions Durham, and that might encourage her to visit the city of their impact is clear in the myriad people who at some point and to look around the cathedral. consider themselves to be stakeholders. 351 English Cathedrals[LORDS] English Cathedrals 352

[THE LORD BISHOP OF WAKEFIELD] time; not only do we not get proper funding, but Many organisations and individuals ask to use our having to pay VAT would actually take funding away cathedrals—from civic services to rotary international, from us. Therefore we are grateful for the shift on VAT and from local businesses to voluntary sector agencies. and for the extra grants available. However, these stakeholders—and there are myriad others—are matched by the diverse reasons for visits Still, however, the issue of adequate state funding by individuals. Some come as tourists; others as pilgrims. for essential maintenance and conservation is crucial. Some come for silence and solace in the face of life’s I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cormack; difficulties and challenges. Many is the conversation I I would not want the situation to be as it is in France. have had in cathedrals with people in places of sadness Nevertheless, as we have heard, English Heritage’s in their lives. Some come with the explicit hope of budget is always under pressure and now cathedrals talking and meeting up with others, so a guide in a are placed alongside other churches in an open market. cathedral has to be immensely sensitive, knowing when We are enormously grateful for all that it has done, people might want to speak and when they might not. and I am enormously grateful to the noble Baroness, Of course, some come as aficionados of architecture, Lady Andrews, who has been greatly supportive in our while others come simply to celebrate the place, the diocese. I look forward to welcoming her again in the city in which they live. near future. I remember being in Norwich Cathedral one morning Let us go for the £50 million that the noble Lord, when a chap who had been thrown out of his house by Lord Cormack, asked for. If you compare it with the his wife—probably for very good reasons—came up to amount of money in terms of the fuel excise duty that me and said, “Ooh, it’s a big place you’ve got here, has been so much in the news in the last few days, or, isn’t it?” It was interesting that he had lived in Norwich indeed, the £1.3 billion that will go to the European all his life and had never been in the building before. Union—doubtless for good reasons—£50 million is as What was it that brought him there? Well, I just nothing. mentioned that. Like all organisations, as well as facing outside In Norwich—to focus there a little longer—it is the threats, the Church of England is always capable of cathedral, the university and the football team, of shooting itself in the foot. The Dioceses Commission course, that somehow give the city its character, its needs to be careful not to threaten to undermine the personality and its status. Cathedrals give a city their very raison d’être of cathedrals. Merging dioceses soul. Cathedrals belong to everyone. In both Portsmouth easily dissolves important local loyalties and takes and Norwich, people of other religions and people of away the point of these buildings as the focus of a no religious faith will talk of “our cathedral”. bishop’s ministry and the character and personality of Often cathedrals work with other agencies to nourish a locality. Present plans in our part of England aim to a city’s flourishing. In Norwich we co-operated with keep cathedrals for the moment even if the dioceses Delia Smith, the queen of cookery, in a centenary merge; but what will be the logic, and for how long service for Norwich City football club. By good providence could two or three cathedrals be justified in one diocese? we even had what passed for Canaries robes of yellow Furthermore such changes seem to ignore the essential and green to match the occasion. reason for the existence of cathedrals. They are the Cathedrals, too, have been the seed-bed for the home of the cathedra, as we have been reminded—the nourishing of music in our nation. We have heard so seat of a bishop. We need smaller, not larger, dioceses, much already in this debate about the quality of each with one cathedral, the teaching seat of the cathedral music. Most significant as well is that so bishop who is the focus of unity for the church in that many of our really talented classical musicians, people place. As others have said, the essential reason for now at the top of their tree in their profession—not cathedrals is for the worship of Almighty God; that is related particularly to church matters—started their the beginning and the end of them. musical careers in cathedral choirs. This essential work Let me end with one further telling vignette. It needs to continue via proper financial support. I was relates to that extraordinary outflow of emotion on very pleased to hear the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, the death of Diana, Princess of Wales. We opened our say how important this remains, not just for our doors in Norwich—where I was at the time—from cathedrals but for the whole heritage and tradition of dawn until dusk, and I saw one woman enter the good music in our country. building, light a candle and pray for 10 minutes. On For all these reasons, I am acutely aware of the her way out of the cathedral she thanked me for need to respond to any moves that may undermine making the great church available and said, “I am not these great flagships of the spirit. As we have already religious or anything, but I had to come”. I reckon heard many times, a month or two ago a change in the that 10 minutes of prayer and a lighted candle feels a VAT regulations threatened to undermine the very pretty religious thing to do. Whatever she thought she breadth of what cathedrals offer. It is the alterations, was doing, such an act and expression of commitment adaptations and modifications of these buildings that is but one of so many reasons why we must work even make them speak more effectively to our own generation, harder not only to preserve our cathedrals but to make so I am very thankful that we are being given respite in their ministry and service to a whole community more that area, at least for three years. However, as the effective than ever. I, too, look forward to a great noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and the noble Baroness, statement of confidence in the Government supporting Lady Andrews, have said, I hope we can be reassured our cathedrals and I hope that they might think carefully further that that respite will continue well beyond that about that £50 million. 353 English Cathedrals[28 JUNE 2012] English Cathedrals 354

1.16 pm quick to point out that the tax would not mean more money for the Government but less maintenance for Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe: My Lords, I add historic buildings. Adding 20% to the already fearsome my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for costs of keeping open our great cathedrals—let alone introducing this debate and, indeed, for the way in keeping on top of major repairs—would have made which he has championed our national heritage over this work completely unmanageable. many years. I speak with much less authority on this subject than other speakers, but I am delighted to As the majority of alterations to listed church contribute to a debate that has sparked such knowledge buildings take place in order to improve access to and passion, and to take the opportunity to congratulate them and to broaden their use by the wider community, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester on the Chancellor’s U-turn is entirely right and proper. a moving and illuminating maiden speech. By increasing the annual budget of the Listed Places As has been said already, England’s cathedrals are of Worship Grant Scheme by £30 million and amending some of the greatest ancient buildings in Europe. Whether its scope to fully compensate churches for the impact ancient or more modern, each is often the largest, of removing VAT relief from alteration work, he has most architecturally complex, most archaeologically acknowledged the importance of these buildings, which, sensitive and most visited building in its town or city. of course, should never have been overlooked in the While our cathedrals are first and foremost places of first place. However, concern remains. Although the Christian worship, they are also cultural centres and proposals in the Budget will have an impact mostly on tourist attractions. They are at once places of pilgrimage alterations to listed church buildings as distinct from and public buildings that host great national or civic repairs, the Church of England is nevertheless concerned events. They are prayerful spaces that also host community that the money available to reimburse churches for events and busy cafés. VAT charged for repair work will also be affected as a consequence of the extra demands placed on the Listed Beautiful and breathtaking their architecture may Places of Worship Grant Scheme. be, but as the Church of England points out, these buildings are not just heritage landmarks but contribute I echo the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and ask the to the wider community in diverse ways. Often they Minister how confident she is that the £30 million will are the only local space of any size with public access, cover the additional costs borne by listed places of hosting concerts, lectures and degree ceremonies; and, worship following the VAT change. Can she also be of course, they are still used for their original purpose. confident that the additional resources will enable Attendance at regular weekly services in Church of 100% compensation for repair and maintenance costs England cathedrals has increased over the past decade, eligible under the current grant scheme? I ask because as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham I want to see more of the life-enhancing alterations so said. magnificently exemplified by Wells Cathedral in Somerset—a cathedral I love visiting—as well as by The number of volunteers involved in the mission others in English Heritage’s report, Creativity and and ministry of cathedrals on a regular basis has Care. increased by 24% to 14,500—an average of 345 volunteers for every cathedral. They are truly part of the big The report shows how thoughtfully and sensitively society. Last year more than 250,000 children attended some of our cathedrals have been adapted and developed educational events at a cathedral, with Westminster to remain relevant today. I, too, pay tribute to the Abbey adding a further 12,000 to that nationwide superb contribution to this work made by my noble figure. Just under 10,000 children are being educated friend Lady Andrews. At Wells there are some 1,700-plus at schools associated with cathedrals, and more than services, concerts, educational visits and other events 2,000 of these children and adults are involved week organised by the cathedral each year. That amounts to by week in providing cathedral music. about five events a day, each attracting a different Other noble Lords provided many examples of the public. Yet until recently the cathedral had no adequate contribution of cathedrals to the community—I will toilet, no disabled access to many areas of the cathedral not repeat them. They all demonstrate our cathedrals’ church, no education area for visiting school groups continuing active role in people’s lives. This also means and an overcrowded restaurant. meeting legislative requirements and offering modern All that has changed following one of the biggest facilities. It is for this reason that I support the long- building programmes at a medieval cathedral since the running campaign by the Church of England’s General Reformation. Unblocking the pilgrims’ porch—in Synod to cut the rate of VAT on church repairs and medieval times the main entrance to the building—has maintenance. The former Council for the Care of allowed access between the precinct, the cloister and Churches argued that, the church. A new cloister provides a reception area, “charging VAT on repairs … encourages unnecessary alterations an expanded shop and a first-floor restaurant. It took and discourages … good conservation”. seven years to get permissions and, in total, the work The distinction between repairs and maintenance on cost £7 million, much of it coming from the Sainsbury the one hand and alterations on the other is artificial and Garfield Weston Foundations and the Heritage and complex to administer. Lottery Fund. The end result is a triumph of 21st-century Like other noble Lords today, I welcome the recent vision and sensitivity, magnificently balancing the rethink by the Chancellor of the ill conceived proposal building’s significance with the needs of modern users. to introduce VAT on alterations and improvements A cathedral in my home county of Yorkshire also made to churches and cathedrals. Cathedral deans—who supplies a wonderful example of where the money has can generally be relied on to speak their minds—were been found to make alterations that serve a 21st-century 355 English Cathedrals[LORDS] English Cathedrals 356

[BARONESS WARWICK OF UNDERCLIFFE] established as key places in civic and social life; and community. The Leeds Roman Catholic Cathedral, Llandaff, a remarkable mixture of old and new, now built in the early years of the 20th century, now has hosts the largest organ built in this country for the some very modern new facilities. A thoroughgoing past 100 years. It was beautifully demonstrated this clean of the interior in 2005 transformed the grime of April at a jubilee thanksgiving service in the presence my childhood to light-filled glory. Some 25% of the of Her Gracious Majesty the Queen. £2.4 million cost was gathered by fundraising within a However, cathedrals will face even greater challenges relatively small and not particularly wealthy diocese. in the coming years as they, as centres of excellence, Another example is York Minster, where an innovative continue the process of adaptation to serve an array of project by the York Glaziers Trust has transformed faith, community and outreach projects. The most the Bedern chapel, a medieval building in the close recent announcements on VAT, while welcome, are which I recall as merely a ruin. Winning a Heritage still confusing and uncertain, as the noble Lord, Lord Lottery Fund bid in 2006 led to new flooring and a Tyler, and others have suggested. If grant provisions new ceiling, and CCTV that allows visitors to watch for returning in grant the equivalent of VAT are not the work at close hand. retained—not only in this Parliament, as promised, To keep our cathedrals relevant takes money, vision but beyond—the implications are most serious. The and commitment. This has always been so. As Frank award-winning creation of the cloisters at St David’s Field pointed out, the process of refitting our cathedrals Cathedral, for example, would have been nigh impossible for the future has never stopped. For that process to to realise if full VAT had been imposed on all the costs continue today, funding is vital, as so many other involved. contributors to the debate emphasised. So, too, of As the noble Baroness said, cathedrals, like all course are goodwill and volunteers. churches, face serious threats from metal theft. It is It is not only our cathedrals that are extraordinary; vital to continue our efforts to eradicate this crime so are many of the 14,000 listed places of worship in wave. The Private Member’s Bill recently introduced in England, as other noble Lords attested. Anglican churches the other place is therefore greatly to be encouraged. alone form 45% of the grade 1 listed buildings in England. In 2006, necessary repairs to all listed places 1.28 pm of worship in England were estimated to cost £185 million Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, I congratulate a year. It is worth noting that of the money spent on the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, on securing the debate the repairs, 70% was raised by congregations and local and thank all noble Lords who have contributed to it. communities. I was struck by the suggestion made by my noble The Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme, now friend Lady Andrews that the word “cathedral” has, in totalling £42 million, is only guaranteed for the next some senses, become detached from its relationship to three years. We need to know that our extraordinary buildings and can be used in other contexts in order to legacy of cathedral buildings will be safe on our watch give a sense of scale and impact of the event being and that they will be given the best chance of seeing described. This debate could be called cathedral-like out the next thousand years. I join with other noble in the sense that we have ranged wide, with knowledge Lords in hoping that the Minister will be able to offer and expertise, across the histories of our cathedrals hope that the state will continue to provide its part of and the contribution that they make to our society. the necessary funding. We have benefited tremendously from the expertise around the House today. I have already mentioned my 1.25 pm noble friend Lady Andrews, who does so much in her Lord Rowe-Beddoe: My Lords, I acknowledge with capacity as chair of English Heritage—she has been gratitude the House’s indulgence in allowing me to congratulated on her work throughout the debate—and speak in the gap. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord there were also, of course, the detailed contributions Cormack, on securing the debate. I shall not attempt of the right reverend Prelates. They have taken us into to continue his elegantly described train journey through the day-to-day living in cathedrals and how that impacts the cathedral cities of east England, but I will speak on local communities, and given impressive snapshots about the six great cathedrals of Wales. of the work that they do. I declare an interest as chairman of the Representative I congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop Body of the Church in Wales and an interest as a of Worcester on his maiden speech. He said that it was grateful recipient of an early education as a boarding providential that he had come up to the House a few choirboy and organ student at the Cathedral School, days before this event and that he was able to make his Llandaff, the only professional cathedral school in maiden speech, unlike so many of us who skulk around Wales. As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of for several months wondering how on earth we are Worcester referred to in his excellent maiden speech, going to do it. We wait for an appropriate debate to cathedral music must never ever be underestimated as come along, and what happens? Is it in two or three a core of the cultural life of our country. days? He was able to come up and wow us all with his Our cathedrals in Wales range in scale from the contribution, which was so eloquent—as it would be, small but perfectly formed St Asaph, now situated in of course, from a fellow chemist. the United Kingdom’s newest city, to the imposing In my researches for this I was very pleased to note grandeur of St David’s, a cradle of Christianity in that Worcester Cathedral had a Bishop Wilfrid in the these islands since the 6th century and declared a early 700s and again in the 920s. There has been none centre of pilgrimage by Pope Calixtus in 1123. Our since then; I am not offering, but it is time that the newest cathedrals in Brecon and Newport are well Wilfrids of this world struck back. 357 English Cathedrals[28 JUNE 2012] English Cathedrals 358

I should declare that as a Scottish Presbyterian, However, as we have been warned, we must not take raised in a slightly different tradition, I am probably this for granted. We must certainly celebrate our not the best person to address this topic today. However, cathedrals—we must cherish, value and support them— we do have cathedrals. I was in Dornoch Cathedral but we must also express our concerns to those who only recently, while on holiday, and I have also in a have the authority to ensure that they continue. recent lifetime sung regularly in St Giles’ Cathedral in A recent BBC survey found that representatives of Edinburgh and attended concerts in St Magnus Cathedral almost half the cathedrals in England that responded in Kirkwall. We have also heard about the cathedrals to the survey were concerned about meeting running in Wales. costs in two years’ time. Despite financial concerns, It is clear that, in making speeches such as this, one only nine of the cathedrals charge a mandatory entrance has to reflect on one’s experiences in these amazing fee. We have heard a bit about Durham Cathedral buildings because of their scale, their impact and the already from my noble friend Lady Sherlock. Durham contribution they make. Very few of us have been able Cathedral does not charge for entry but asks visitors to avoid addressing that as we have spoken. I suppose to make a £5 donation towards running costs, which that I am to add to that. I now live regularly in are about £60,000 a week. Despite the request, on England, although I do go back to Scotland; my average visitors donate 32p each. There is obviously a cathedral highlight was probably singing, as part of a huge gap. The quandary there—this is my second concert, Tallis’s motet “Spem in Alium”in Bath Abbey— point—is that the question of what cathedrals are not a cathedral in that sense, but close enough to raises the question of whether there should be a charge. count for this debate. It was a fantastic occasion. The chapter at Durham has obviously discussed the Somehow cathedrals seem to attract people to visit idea of charging for entry “many times”. However, as them. We have agreed that there are 42 of them. I the BBC report says, the chapter felt that the cathedral happened in my research to come across a story in the was a public place where people should have free Sun newspaper recently about an English Heritage access for prayer and worship. worker who has visited all 42 of England’s Anglican As we have heard, in England cathedrals can obtain cathedrals and licked every one. He now plans to carry funding from a range of agencies, including the Heritage on licking in Scotland, Ireland and Wales. He said: Lottery Fund, or HLF, and English Heritage. On the “We’ve no idea why the bet was centred on licking cathedrals—it latest figures, at the last grant announcement in January, just was. I’ve tasted a lot of new places”. HLF had requests totalling £27 million and gave out The cathedrals of Britain span the millennium, £10.3 million, so it was oversubscribed 2.6 times. We from the cathedrals dating from the 1100s to the have also heard that English Heritage has seen the modern cathedrals found in Liverpool and Coventry. amount that it has to give in grants reduced from As we have heard, they display a wide array of £25.9 million in 2010-11 to £15.4 million in 2012-13 as architectural styles, from early English Gothic to the a result of government funding cuts. majesty of the Renaissance at St Paul’s and the 1960s There has been an interesting campaign about the modernism in Liverpool. In the Middle Ages and up way in which VAT is levied on church repairs; a to the Reformation in the 1500s, the church enjoyed number of earlier speakers mentioned that. I have enormous power and wealth, and cathedrals are eloquent taken two or three of their points, because I think they symbols of the dominant place it still holds in British are relevant to the general questions about how we society. address this. This debate has provided three strands of concern. The case was made in a paper from the Church of The first is the question of whether our cathedrals can England’s General Synod that since the largest portion continue to be both ecclesiastical and, as it has been of the grant aid available to support cathedrals comes said, “common ground” places for our people. The from public funds, it is rather wasteful that much of evidence is pretty good. The worry is how we can the money is then recycled back to the Government continue to fund them in the way they are currently through VAT. That is an important point. It has also perceived. Many of us have talked about the places of been pointed out that the Government take more from worship scheme and I have some questions for the the VAT charged on restoration works than they contribute Minister at the end of what I have to say. in grants through their various bodies. There is also, of The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said that the soul course, the more generic point that charging VAT is a of a country was in its buildings and that we could not disincentive to potential donors, since people are reluctant call ourselves civilised if the spire of Salisbury or the to give money that they know will end up being paid wonderful vision of St Paul’s in London were ever at as tax. risk. Cathedrals are living, vibrant buildings, and as We have some questions for the Minister and would we have heard they make a contribution to local be grateful to have them answered at the end of this communities not just with spiritual and other work debate. One of the problems about funding the church but in economic terms. It is very difficult to believe arises from the question of whether there can be a that we would continue to operate in society with our reduction specifically of VAT on church repairs and weddings, our funerals, our christenings, our graduations alterations. I understand that in December 2010 the and even in the jubilee without using our cathedrals as current Government stated that they saw “no realistic a centre of much of the focus of our activity. Several prospect” of an agreement at EU level to allow for noble Lords have spoken very movingly about the historic church repairs to be zero-rated. Can the Minister music in cathedrals and the contribution that has been confirm that the Government have now given up made over the years to the musical life of our country. attempting to get this concession? 359 English Cathedrals[LORDS] English Cathedrals 360

[LORD STEVENSON OF BALMACARA] very visible signs of our Christian heritage. One need In December 2010 the Government announced that only travel towards Chichester or Salisbury to get some the listed places of worship scheme will continue until idea of how extraordinary the distant spires must have 2014-15, with a fixed annual budget of £12 million. been in earlier, less mechanised times or industrialised However, in the Second Reading debate on the Finance eras, or to see Durham from the train. I am not going Bill, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury announced to get into a debate as to which of these amazing that he would increase the Listed Places of Worship cathedrals should be at the head of a league table Scheme by £5 million a year to enable churches that because they all have their wonders and they are all have alterations to benefit from the scheme and not to astonishing. be adversely affected. That took us up to £17 million In medieval times they were centres of learning as per annum. I have one more loop before I get to the well as a source of inspiration through art and architecture, final figure. and of course they were frequently the goal for pilgrims. The Church Commissioners said that we had got to Their ravaging at the time of the Reformation must have “an insecure and inadequate solution” and that the been traumatising for those around. Their architecture potential VAT cost faced by the Church of England is undoubtedly some of the greatest work this country could be as much as £20 million a year. At the start of has ever produced and their impact should not be the new Session, therefore, the Chancellor announced underestimated. It was excellent to hear from the noble that the Government would provide an extra £30 million Baroness, Lady Andrews, about the continuity of a year for this scheme. He said: craftsmanship that helps to support our cathedrals. “That will be 100% compensation, exactly as we promised in The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, mentioned the the Budget, for the additional cost borne by churches for alterations. Venerable Bede. His Ecclesiastical History of the English It should also go a long way towards helping the situation on People, which I read in Latin during my history degree, repairs and maintenance, where in recent years they have not been shows that the cathedral’s role as a home for items of able to get 100% compensation”.—[Official Report, Commons, historical significance has hardly declined over the 17/5/12; col. 731.] centuries. Could the Minister confirm the exact figure? My Cathedrals are still at the centre of Christian life, noble friend Lady Warwick said that it was £42 million serving their local communities and visitors, as several per year. I make it £47 million per year. It would be noble Lords said. They help visitors make sense of one nice to have an exact figure. In addition, that would strand of our history. Cathedrals work closely with make HMT the biggest funder of ecclesiastical buildings local schools, offering visits and courses. They are also in the country, which is great; a slightly novel situation. a natural focal point for their surrounding areas and Again, it would be interesting to confirm two things those working in them today often reach out to the that relate to that. What did the Chancellor mean wider society around them, seeking to support mothers when he said that this additional grant would go a with young children, homeless people and the local “long way” towards helping the situation on repairs? economy. Many noble Lords, particularly my noble Are all alterations and repairs now to be covered by friend Lady Byford and the right reverend Prelates the that, and if so, is it the Minister’s view that the Bishops of Birmingham, Worcester and Wakefield, £47 million—or £42 million, whatever it is—is now outlined the social impact of cathedrals today. sufficient? A final and important point is this: do the Government Preserving and maintaining such massive and now believe that they have all funding in place, and outstanding buildings, most of which date back hundreds will they now let the funding continue to operate, as of years, is clearly a significant challenge. I have noted this scheme was due to end in 2015? We would be the different way of funding in France that was mentioned grateful for the final word on that. by several noble Lords. Speakers said that they did not want religious buildings to be vested in the state. There seems to be general agreement that that is not the way 1.40 pm to do this, and therefore we must ask how best the Baroness Northover: My Lords, I start by thanking state can engage. Recently, a number of important my noble friend Lord Cormack for securing this debate restoration projects were undertaken. The noble Baroness, on the important issue of the future of English cathedrals. Lady Andrews, referred to the York Minster Revealed His background in this area, as others have noted, is project, which secured the conservation of the Great formidable. We have also heard from many other East Window. The Heritage Lottery Fund has already noble Lords with great expertise, including the noble committed £10.5 million to the project. Earlier this Baroness, Lady Andrews, the chair of English Heritage, year the fund gave a “first round pass” of more than and from those with long personal involvement with £10 million to Winchester Cathedral for urgent works. cathedrals. That was shown in the outstanding maiden From a total figure of more than £44.5 million of speech of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of funding to cathedral projects since 1995, more than Worcester and by many others. We have also heard £25 million has been directed by the Heritage Lottery from two former choristers, as they identified themselves: Fund towards the conservation of physical fabric— the noble Lords, Lord Howarth and Lord Rowe-Beddoe. external stonework, stained glass, internal floors, There is a huge debt to acknowledge. monuments and screens. Cathedrals are encouraged to Cathedrals represent part of our most important apply for funding through the fund’s open programmes, cultural heritage. Our ancient cathedrals hark back to where grants of between £10,000 and £5 million can an earlier age of achievement and are an example of be obtained. the rich architectural treasure that we must safeguard We have heard quite a bit about what English Heritage as well as enjoy. For centuries, cathedrals have been has been doing. In 1991 it established a dedicated 361 English Cathedrals[28 JUNE 2012] English Cathedrals 362 grant scheme for cathedrals. We heard about how that compensation for repair and maintenance costs eligible came about and its amazing effect as it ran through to under the current Listed Places of Worship Grant 2010. It offered £48.6 million, together with an additional Scheme from the beginning of this financial year. £2.9 million from the Wolfson Foundation, which has Cathedrals of all denominations across the country also been referred to, towards the cost of repairs. will be able to benefit from this funding. Subsequently, English Heritage stopped the dedicated scheme as its 2009 cathedral fabric survey indicated Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords— that the overall state of repair of our cathedrals had improved dramatically. It is extremely encouraging to Baroness Northover: I think it is best if I proceed know that. Lincoln remains the only cathedral on the because this is a time-limited debate, and I hope that I at-risk register, and English Heritage is supporting it. will cover most of the issues. If I am not able to do so, It is therefore important to note that we can be reassured I will write to noble Lords. that when the problems were flagged up, Governments of different persuasions took them seriously. English Lord Howarth of Newport: I am most grateful to the Heritage took forward the work. The position of noble Baroness. Will she remind her right honourable cathedrals, and to a lesser degree parish churches, has friend the Chancellor that if he increases the rate of been stabilised, and the debate can be set in that VAT on alterations to listed buildings from zero to context. This is a very important issue, but at least the 20%, it will be an irrevocable step? Under European situation is more stable than it was at the beginning of Union law, future Chancellors will not be able to roll the 1990s. back on that. While we are all immensely appreciative of the £100 million that was previously provided to DCMS has a number of schemes that cathedrals help listed places of worship through the Listed Places can access. This year the department has allocated a of Worship Grant Scheme, along with the additional one-off £1.1 million capital grant for listed places of £30 million that has now been promised, the continuation worship. This has been allocated to the Church of of a stop-gap remedy on a time-limited basis is no England and the National Churches Trust to distribute substitute for a proper policy. to buildings of all denominations and faiths across the UK. The Heritage Lottery Fund focuses funding on Baroness Northover: As I mentioned to the noble the non-fabric aspects of buildings. For example, a Lord, this is a time-limited debate. I am coming on to £475,000 grant was award to the partnership between other issues in a minute. I will make sure that all the Lincoln Cathedral and Lincolnshire County Council issues raised in the debate are flagged up not only with to ensure sufficient trainees to conserve the built heritage DCMS—which I am temporarily covering for in the in the area. That is extremely important. debate; it is a great pleasure to do so—but also with I will move on to VAT, to which noble Lords the Treasury. He can be reassured about that. If there referred. In the 2012 Budget, the Government announced are any issues that I do not pick up in my answers, I that from 1 October of this year the current zero VAT will respond to them after the debate. rate for approved alterations to listed buildings would I want to pick up some of the issues that noble be replaced by the standard rate of VAT. When this Lords raised in the debate. Music was a key theme in was announced, the Government also committed to various speeches, if noble Lords will excuse the mixed extending the DCMS Listed Places of Worship Grant metaphor. It is probably rare for one to get goose Scheme to cover any resulting VAT costs incurred by bumps in debates in the House of Lords but as the listed places of worship for alterations following the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, mentioned the specific change. Listed places of worship, including cathedrals, pieces of music that we can hear in cathedrals I am were already eligible for grants towards VAT costs on afraid that that is what I got. We all recognise the repairs and maintenance through the scheme. It was importance of music in cathedrals. My noble friend therefore logical to extend the grant scheme to cover Lord Black made the case that great buildings need alterations in time for when the VAT treatment of great music. They certainly have it and we recognise alterations and repairs is put on the same footing. The the importance of making sure that it is sustained. As Church of England, on behalf of all faith groups, I mentioned, we heard from two choristers. The noble provided evidence to the Government that further Lord, Lord Howarth, and my noble friend Lord Black funding was needed to enable the scheme to offset urged support for music. successfully the impact of the VAT change. The right I emphasise that the Department for Education’s reverend Prelate the Bishop of London led the discussions music and dance scheme will this year provide just with the Treasury, and I thank him for doing so. over £200,000 for around 100 bursary schemes at Following those discussions, the Government independent choir schools through the choir schools’ announced that they would provide an additional scholarship scheme established in 1991. I hope that £30 million of funding per year for the duration of noble Lords will be pleased to hear that. Last year the this Parliament for the scheme. This brings the total scheme provided funding for choristers at a range of annual funding available up to £42 million per year cathedrals including Westminster Cathedral, York Minster, and will come into effect when the VAT rate applied to Canterbury, Lincoln and Christ Church, Oxford. I alterations to listed buildings changes. In answer to need not say that choristers are a valued part of the the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, the noble Lord, music and dance scheme. The Department for Education Lord Stevenson, and others, we are confident that this will continue to support that scheme. additional funding will fully cover the additional costs It was also striking to hear what is happening with borne by listed places of worship following the VAT education in cathedrals. I knew something of this and change. The additional resources will also enable full of course we know of their long history and significance 363 English Cathedrals[LORDS] FSA Investigation into LIBOR 364

[BARONESS NORTHOVER] This has been a stunning debate. It has taken us out in the medieval period. It was encouraging to hear of the amazing building of the House of Lords and, in from my noble friend Lady Byford, the right reverend our imaginations, around these cathedrals—even if prelate the Bishop of Worcester, the noble Baronesses, they compete with each other over which is the most Lady Sherlock and Lady Warwick, and others how stunning. That was an unusual feature for a debate but important cathedrals are in terms of education for made this a very important and enjoyable one. There today’s children. can be no doubting the commitment to our cathedrals We also recognise how important the cathedrals are of those in the Chamber or of the Government. for our tourism industry. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, emphasised the significance of that and we 1.56 pm are acutely aware of it: we value it greatly. I mentioned Lord Cormack: My Lords, I am grateful to the but will reiterate, particularly to my noble friend Lord Minister. I am told that I only have two minutes. I Cormack, that I will flag up the concerns expressed would love to mention every speech but I thank all today both to DCMS and the Treasury. My noble those who took part in what was a wide-ranging, friend mentioned a £50 million endowment fund for passionately felt and very well informed debate. I am the care of cathedrals which should be given to English extremely grateful. I must single out the noble Baroness, Heritage. I noticed the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, Lady Andrews, whose presence has been much appreciated welcomed that notion, which did not surprise me. As I by us all. What she said was even more appreciated. I mentioned before, the Government have committed must also mention with great delight the maiden speech an additional £30 million a year to the listed places of of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester. worship scheme and £500 million to heritage organisations As my noble friend Lord Black said in his remarkable over this spending period. speech, it augurs well and we look forward to the right My noble friend Lord Cormack and others asked reverend Prelate’s future contributions. whether the listed places of worship scheme would This debate has united the House in expressing come to an end in 2015. It is not limited in that way concern for these glorious buildings. There might be and does not need to end then. It is guaranteed to the slight differences of opinion as to which is top of the end of this Parliament. We have a fixed term and so we list but that matters not a jot. We are talking about know that that will be until 2015, but the scheme may some of the most glorious buildings not only in this continue after that. I am sure that what noble Lords country or Europe but in the world. I derived some have said today will feed into the discussions that any comfort when the Minister said that she wanted to future Government may have. ensure that they were safeguarded as well as enjoyed. Grateful as we all are for what she said, I hope that she My noble friend Lord Tyler flagged up that he felt will reinforce the request for the £50 million endowment. that the details of the listed places of worship scheme It is a very tiny sum in the national budget, as others were not as clear as they might be. DCMS and HMT indicated. I very much hope that something will come are currently carrying out a consultation with stakeholders of that. The sums we are talking of are small. on the details of that extended scheme. It is extremely One of the recurring themes of the debate was the important that that is happening so that we can make wonderful contribution of choral music and the crucial sure that everything is covered as it should be. As one importance of maintaining that tradition, which means would expect, the Church of England has been closely so much to us all. When I go to Lincoln for choral involved in discussions and the design of the scheme evensong, as I do every day when I am there, I come so far. away feeling inspired, refreshed and invigorated by The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, the noble Lord, what I have heard, and by the solemnity of the Lord Stevenson, and others asked how confident we surroundings in which the glorious music took place. I were that the £30 million would be sufficient. The feel the same on a Sunday morning after sung matins. Church of England provided the Government with I am delighted by the good Prayer Book services in evidence on the impact of the VAT changes. DCMS, Lincoln. I thank all noble Lords for what they said in the Treasury and the Church have expressed confidence the debate and am most grateful to them for underlining that this will cover the additional costs following the the importance of this glorious built heritage of ours. VAT change and will enable 100% compensation for Motion agreed. the repair and maintenance costs currently eligible under the scheme. In summary, I again affirm that the Government FSA Investigation into LIBOR are very much committed to supporting the preservation Statement of cathedrals, just as we are committed to preserving the rest of our historic environment. We offer support for cathedrals through English Heritage, the Heritage 1.59 pm Lottery Fund, the listed places of worship scheme and The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord the DCMS capital grant, as well as schemes run by Sassoon): My Lords, I will now repeat a Statement other departments. DCMS has committed more than made by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of £500 million to heritage organisations across the spending the Exchequer in another place. period and recently secured an extension to the listed “Mr Speaker, I would like to update the House on places of worship scheme. The Government agree that the Financial Services Authority’s investigation into it is important that cathedrals are looked after properly the manipulation of the setting of the LIBOR and and provide a great deal of support for this. EURIBOR interest rates and the Government’s response. 365 FSA Investigation into LIBOR[28 JUNE 2012] FSA Investigation into LIBOR 366

The London Interbank Offered Rate or ‘LIBOR’ one trader tells another in February 2007, ‘If you and the Euro Interbank Offered Rate or ‘EURIBOR’ breathe a word of this, I’m not telling you anything are the benchmark reference rates that are fundamental else’. Yet no one at Barclays prevents them, no one in to the workings of the UK, European and international the tripartite regulatory system knows anything about financial markets, including markets in interest rate it, and the Government of the day were, literally, derivatives contracts. These contracts may sound exotic, clueless about what was going on. but they are the bread and butter of our financial The FSA is clear that the most serious breaches of system and are used by businesses and public authorities its Principles for Businesses occurred in the years every day, and they affect the mortgage payments and leading up to the financial crisis. Once the crisis is loan rates of millions of families and hundreds of under way, Barclays’ concern switches from the greed thousands of firms, large and small. LIBOR and of traders to concern from the management about the EURIBOR are by far the most prevalent benchmark reputational risk to the firm. Barclays itself raises reference rates used in euro, US dollar and sterling concerns about the LIBOR with the FSA in late 2007 interest rate derivatives contracts. The outstanding and 2008. Yes, the financial system was experiencing a interest rate contracts alone are estimated to be worth severe stress, and markets were frozen. However, it is $554 trillion. clear that Barclays—and potentially other banks—was Yesterday, the FSA published notice that Barclays still in flagrant breach of its duty to observe proper had, on numerous occasions, acted inappropriately standards of market conduct and to give citizens and and breached principles 2, 3 and 5 of the FSA’s businesses in this country and elsewhere proper transparent Principles for Businesses. As a result, the FSA has information about the true price of money. Britain’s imposed a financial penalty of £59.5 million on Barclays. tripartite system of regulation failed us in war and in In other words, the FSA reports that this bank, on peace—and the country has paid a heavy price for numerous occasions, did not conduct its business with that. due skill, care and diligence. The bank did not take reasonable care to organise its affairs responsibly and That brings me to the second question of how we effectively, with adequate risk management systems, can prevent this from ever happening again. This and it did not observe proper standards of market Government are getting rid of the whole tripartite conduct. As the FSA puts it, system. The Financial Services Bill now before Parliament will create a new, far tougher regulatory system. A new ‘Barclays’ misconduct … created the risk that the integrity of LIBOR and EURIBOR would be called into question and that Financial Conduct Authority will focus, razor-like, on confidence in or the stability of the UK financial system would be market abuse and protecting consumers. We have been threatened’. reviewing with the FSA and the Bank of England the Barclays is not alone in this. The FSA is continuing operation of the LIBOR regime—which was not regulated to investigate the conduct of a number of other banks under the last Government’s Financial Services and in relation to LIBOR. The FSA continues to commit Markets Act. The market is already changing and the significant resources to its investigations into potential role of LIBOR is changing with it. As part of our attempts to manipulate LIBOR, and it continues to review into LIBOR and the strength of the financial work with its counterparts overseas and with other regulatory architecture, we will examine if there are authorities in the UK. The investigations concern a any gaps in the criminal regime inherited by this number of institutions both based in the UK and Government and we will take the necessary steps to overseas, but it is already clear that the FSA’s investigation address them. demonstrates systematic failures at the heart of the I cannot comment on possible criminal investigations financial system at the time. for individuals involved in this activity. The authorities I want to thank Adair Turner and the team at the are exploring every avenue open to them, but shockingly, FSA for a very thorough piece of work. However, it the scope of the FSA’s criminal powers granted by the begs three vital questions. First, how were such failures previous Government does not extend to being able to allowed to continue undetected and unchecked— impose criminal sanctions for manipulation of LIBOR. particularly in the two years before the financial crisis, As part of our review into LIBOR and the strength of when the FSA is clear that the most serious breaches the financial regulatory architecture, we are examining occurred, and the only motive was greed? Secondly, whether strengthening the criminal sanctions regime what changes are needed to our regulatory system in for market abuse and market manipulation is warranted, the future to prevent such abuse occurring again, and and if so, we will provide for these powers quickly. In to make sure that the authorities have every power addition, next week the Government will publish a they need to hold those responsible fully to account? consultation in response to the report on the failure of Thirdly, what further investigations are required into RBS, and will consider the possibility of criminal the activities at Barclays, what sanctions are available, sanctions for directors of failed banks where there is and what questions must their chief executive answer? proven criminal negligence. First, the FSA report is a shocking indictment of Under the previous Government’s regime, fines paid the culture at banks like Barclays in the run up to the to the FSA are used to reduce the annual levy other financial crisis. The e-mail exchanges between derivative financial institutions are asked to pay. I am far from traders and the LIBOR submitters read like an epitaph convinced that in all cases this is the best use of the to an age of irresponsibility. Through 2005, 2006, and money. We are considering amendments to the Financial early 2007, we see evidence of systematic greed at the Services Bill that ensure that fines of this nature go to expense of financial integrity and stability. They knew help the taxpaying public, not the financial industry. I that what they were doing was wrong: ‘Keep a secret’, have also asked my officials urgently to investigate 367 FSA Investigation into LIBOR[LORDS] FSA Investigation into LIBOR 368

[LORD SASSOON] I think it says that the Government are thinking about whether this legislation could be applied to the fine it. I would hope that the Minister would be a little imposed on Barclays. However, it is clear that what firmer than that. Surely these things, which are so happened in Barclays and potentially other banks was important, must come in to the regulatory regime and completely unacceptable, and that it is symptomatic of must do so soon. a financial system that elevated greed above all other The Statement talks about criminal sanctions. Criminal concerns, and brought our economy to its knees. That sanctions are extraordinarily difficult to bring about brings me to the final point. because of the burden of criminal law. It is fair to say As I say, a number of individuals are under formal that you cannot find them in the current legislation, investigation by the FSA, and this number is expected and yes, okay, it is our fault—I hope my leaders do not to increase as the investigations continue. The Serious hear me say that. One of the reasons is that it is Fraud Office is aware of the matters under investigation, extraordinarily difficult to bring criminal sanctions and there are ongoing discussions between the FSA into an area such as this where the criminal burden of and the SFO about the evidence as it develops. As far proof is so high, but if the Minister can illustrate with as the chief executive of Barclays is concerned, he has a few examples what criminal sanctions the Government some very serious questions to answer today. What did are thinking about, once again, we will listen to his he know, and when did he know it? Who in the remarks very attentively. Barclays management is involved, and who, therefore, should pay the price? It is quite right that the Treasury Let us move on to the victims. The Statement Select Committee has asked him to appear urgently to referred to, I think, millions of families and thousands account for himself and for his bank. We all want to of businesses. These people have probably lost out hear his answers. financially. What are the Government proposing to do about recompensing them? Are they going to bring in The story of irresponsibility is not over yet. Our any law, or at least address the balance between financial services should be a source of economic shareholders and customers in this very difficult area strength and national pride for this country. However, of financial services? This is a scandal akin to the PPI failures in our banks and financial system have cost scandal, and we have to recognise its size. the country billions and put thousands out of work. Those responsible should be held responsible. We want There is the issue of balance. Forgive me, but I will our financial services to support the creation of jobs keep coming back to it. There is the concept that the and prosperity for millions. This Government are sweeping law should contain a duty of care to customers. We are away the regulatory system that failed. They will protect not yet at that point in the Bill, but I would welcome taxpayers, punish wrong-doing, and put right the wrongs the views of the Minister about whether we should of the age of irresponsibility.” move across that spectrum towards customers having legal rights if, through their processes, the financial My Lords, that concludes the Statement. institutions they are trading with have put them at an unreasonable disadvantage. It will be difficult to frame, 2.08 pm but we have to think about this balance and we have to Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, I thank the Minister be in a situation—for a number of reasons that I will for repeating the Statement made in the other place. I come on to—where victims have real care. Finally in would like to open by saying a little about the role of this section, the Financial Services Bill is a good this House. It is probable that we will have to take vehicle. It will need co-operation, but we encourage account of today’s events in amendments to the Financial the Government to do it. We must do it in a highly Services Bill. My view of the first day in Committee scrutinised way. on the Financial Services Bill was that it was pretty What is going to happen to those responsible? I am apolitical and very much about getting the right result sure that if there are criminal routes, they will be for the country. I hope that we can carry on in that taken. I point out to Members of the House that, way. We will do what we can to co-operate on bringing frankly, this is not for the Government. Criminal in any changes. We must, through the usual channels, actions and criminal prosecutions are for the appropriate make sure that there will be time to scrutinise properly. prosecuting authorities, and I hope we can trust those Turning to yesterday’s events, the first area I shall authorities to pursue any criminal sanctions with due touch on is what is to be done. The Government have vigour. We would expect nothing less of them, and we claimed that the Financial Services Bill would have will be deeply critical if they do not. The FSA probably created a different result and would have markedly has powers short of criminal sanctions against individuals improved the situation. In the Statement, there is no to stop them holding office and so on. It would be illustration of what that means. I would value the valuable if the Minister could lay out a little detail. Minister setting out briefly what parts of the Bill are Are they available? How will they be applied? going to change. I have done my best to try to understand The real sanction in this case will be in the hands of the Bill, and I do not see the obvious areas, but if they the Barclays board. It is for that board to act, and to are there, we will help get them into law and make sure show it is acting, in a way that sends a message that they happen. If the Minister will set those things out, this bank is going to change how it behaves. The tests it would be valuable to the House. set out by the Chancellor are incomplete. It is not a Secondly—I shall stop the numbers because they matter of what the chief executive knew or when he will go on for ever—the regulation of LIBOR and its knew it; it is what action he took to make sure that he derivatives was rejected in the other place by the was seeking to know and that there were processes in Minister. I am not quite sure what the Statement says. place to assure him that proper responsible actions 369 FSA Investigation into LIBOR[28 JUNE 2012] FSA Investigation into LIBOR 370 were being taken by his traders. Donald Rumsfeld The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked what the ruminated on this. I cannot quote him exactly, but he Bill will do to improve matters. First, we are creating a said something quite profound: you are responsible focused conduct regulator, the FCA, which will supervise not just for your errors but for foreseen risks and also in a much more focused way than the FSA the conduct for foreseeable risks. Foreseeable risks are risks where, of markets because it will not have all of the prudential by having the right structures and systems, you can side to look at. The FCA’s operational objective of look into the future and make sure that you have got it protecting and enhancing market integrity goes to the right. That is what good auditors do, it is what good heart of our discussion. Because it is a self-standing risk managers do, and it is what this bank should have body, the FCA will create a different culture and risk been doing. It should have seen these risks much appetite. It will take a tougher, more proactive and earlier. more focused approach to these sorts of issues and We come finally to culture change. I have been in there will be specific powers that we will discuss in the culture change business. I have not run a great detail through the Bill’s proceedings. For example, in bank, but I ran what I consider to be a great institution circumstances like this, the new power of the FCA to that is responsible for 2 million people a day and for disclose the fact that a warning notice in respect of a their lives. Less than a year before I took over, it had disciplinary matter has been issued means that the killed 31 people. The result was that the boss at the FCA will be able to disclose that it is taking action at a time was fired, after a proper inquiry, his boss was much earlier stage in an investigation than the FSA. fired, and I ended up head of that organisation. The So the new structure will be much better suited to key change we made was to ensure that everybody was dealing with this sort of problem. personally responsible. If a death occurred on the There is also a lot of ongoing work to review how Underground, it was my responsibility. It was my the LIBOR-setting process works. There are consultants responsibility not to check the particular area, but to involved with the BBA and the panel banks working be able to assure myself that I had done all that was with the FCA. There is a supervisory committee for reasonably practical for such a thing not to happen. this work on which the Treasury sits as a non-voting Indeed, on most occasions one finds that one has member but providing strategic steer for the work. I learnt something or has to do something more, but all would expect findings to be published from that review the way through the management chain individuals within the next few months. There are all sorts of ideas have to be personally responsible. That burden of floating around, such as changing the LIBOR data to responsibility to probity failed in this case. actual trading data rather than the submission basis In addition, we have to look at the bonus structure. we have now and whether there should be a new We do not talk about bonuses bluntly enough. Frankly, LIBOR code and so on. So there are a lot of ideas, the you introduce bonuses to change behaviours. You work is well advanced and will be reported in the next change behaviours in what is arguably an acceptably few months. benign way. You get people to work longer hours, with The criminal law ought to be the last stage. As the more vigour, to be more inventive and so on, but noble Lord said, we have to get the culture right within unfortunately a bonus culture will push you to the the banks,. We have to have appropriate powers in the edge of regulation. When you do that, you have to FCA to be able to detect things as early as possible and make sure that the systems are in place to prevent that take action. We need to see whether there are any gaps push beyond the edge of regulation. That requires in the criminal law. As with the forthcoming report enormous care and is an enormous responsibility for into RBS, there will be a consultation on whether there the board. should be new criminal sanctions on negligent directors The culture must change in the banking industry of failed banks. So this is very much on our mind. and it must change from the top. This board must be The noble Lord then asked about people who have seen to take decisive action, as indeed must all boards. lost money. This is a difficult issue because it is not This is a very, very serious day. This leaves a stain on possible to know whether LIBOR has been manipulated Britain. Let us be frank about it: before today, people on any particular day. It will be impossible to know believed that bankers were greedy and stupid, and, what the effect of the attempted manipulation has sadly, they now know that they are dishonest. For the been, if any. It is a complicated rate-setting process financial centre of Europe, that is a pretty unhappy which means that half of the submissions that go in combination. We are calling for the strongest punishment are excluded from the calculation. So some of these for those who have broken trust and broken the law, fraudulent or incorrect rates that went in—I should tough regulation to prevent such practices and a culture not presume anything that hints at criminality; that is change in our banking industry. We must get our for others—may not have got into the calculation. So economy working, and we must remove this stain on we do not know whether people have benefited because our reputation and repair it. We on these Benches will the rate went up higher or lower than it should have do all we can to bring that about as quickly as possible. been. People could have either benefited or lost out; it is not clear. 2.18 pm The noble Lord made some interesting observations Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble about culture and management and so on. My right Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for confirming the Opposition’s honourable friend did not want to list all the questions support for possible amendments to the Financial that the Treasury Committee will no doubt ask of the Services Bill to reflect these matters and for his frank chief executive of Barclays but I am sure they will admission that there may be lacunae in the law that include one or two of the questions that the noble now need to be plugged. Lord put. 371 FSA Investigation into LIBOR[LORDS] FSA Investigation into LIBOR 372

[LORD SASSOON] Lord Morris of Aberavon: My Lords, when I was a Lastly, the noble Lord talked about the stain on the young barrister, I occasionally prosecuted, on behalf banking industry. It is important to say that, although of the Board of Trade, persons thought to be unfit to it is indeed a stain on the banking industry and that it be directors of a public company. Those cases, as I has significant effects on London and the UK, there recollect, were not all that difficult. The Minister has are also banks under investigation that are not British mentioned criminal sanctions, where of course the or headquartered and managed from the UK. There burden of proof is the usual one and it is high. were regulatory failures in the run-up and through the Without prejudice to a particular case, is similar procedure financial crisis in the US and other countries. So, yes, still available to prevent directors from holding positions it is a serious day for the banking industry; yes, there is in future on the grounds of unfitness? a stain that needs to be dealt with; and yes, London needs to clean up its act but it is not only the UK that is involved in this. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord. As I said, we have concerns about the question of directors, particularly directors of 2.25 pm banks, to make sure that the regime is appropriate and Baroness Kramer: My Lords, the public are rightly tough enough. The regime for directors of banks, outraged by the manipulation of interest rates and because of the special nature of their role, should be Europe is going to look more suspiciously at London looked at on its own merits. That is why it is timely just at a time when we are trying to protect the City. So that the RBS report and consultation, going very there are great issues at stake. much to this point, will be published next week by the Will the Minister explain why the FSA’s fine to Treasury. I hope that we will get a debate going about Barclays is so small? As far as the company is concerned, what is appropriate in terms of the special regime that £59.5 million is a freckle and far less than the fine in might be appropriate for directors of failed banks if the United States. Surely they are not the senior regulator they are shown to have behaved negligently. in this case. Why are there no sanctions at all—we are not just talking about criminal sanctions—against Baroness O’Cathain: My Lords, the Statement says anybody senior? It is one thing to go after the traders that this was going on throughout 2005, 2006 and but systematic mismanagement and manipulation of early 2007. Was it stopped in 2007, or has it been the market over four years surely affects senior going on since then? I wonder whether it has been people and has to engage them. The questions are to going on for another five years. If so, what do my be asked by the Treasury Select Committee, which is Government propose that we should be doing? Can an outstanding Committee, but surely they should be we actually believe these people? coming from the regulator with the ability to follow with direct sanctions. Lastly, it is crucial that the Financial Services Bill is Lord Sassoon: My Lords, on the particular case, the looked at again because, although we have a new form FSA report sets out what was going on. The important of regulator coming in the FCA, which I hope will be point for my noble friend is that the point of highlighting rigorous and effective, we must ensure in this Bill that the dates which my noble friend gave was that this the regulator has real teeth so that there is fear when activity was going on before the financial crisis. It was that regulator looks again at this kind of mismanagement, going on in an atmosphere of greed in what were and a fundamental change in behaviour. perceived to be the good times. When the financial crisis hit, the activity of the individuals at Barclays was motivated by something else, which was to do Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I share the concerns of with the reputation and standing of Barclays in the my noble friend. This is the largest fine ever imposed market. The particular relevance of those earlier dates by the FSA. The US comes at this in a different way in was to distinguish what then happened during the many respects so the seriousness of the issue is later period, in the financial crisis. demonstrated by the size of the fine in relation to anything else that has ever been done by the FSA in As the FSA and other regulators’ investigations this country. It is the largest. The FSA sets the fines go on, they will tell us more about the extent and and it should do so. This has to be an independent duration of these activities. Given that the banks have process and I am sure nobody would want the been on warning of this for a period, I would like to Government involved in it. think that they have taken significant steps to clean up their activity. We want to make sure that, as I have As far as the investigations are concerned, my noble described with this ongoing review of the LIBOR friend may be jumping ahead of the ongoing investigations system, the system is appropriate to the new market by the FSA and SFO. I do not know where they will circumstances. come out or who will be involved, but those investigations are going on. As for a powerful regulator for the future that is able to do this, I could not agree with her Lord Radice: As a former chairman of the Treasury more. The FSA model completely failed. As I have Select Committee, I of course strongly support the already explained, the Financial Conduct Authority idea of its investigation. Does the Minister agree that will be focused and will have as a core objective the if the executives of Barclays did not know what was integrity of markets. It will be much better placed to going on, they ought to consider their position? If deal with these kinds of problems as they come up in they did know what was going on, they ought to resign future. immediately. 373 FSA Investigation into LIBOR[28 JUNE 2012] FSA Investigation into LIBOR 374

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lord Sassoon: My Lords, on the noble Lord’s first Radice, makes some good points, which I am sure the point, I am sure that the board of the bank in question chief executive of Barclays will be pressed on when he will listen to his views on bonus matters. That is comes before the successors to the noble Lord on the principally a matter for the board of Barclays Bank to Treasury Select Committee. consider. The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has said that we Lord Hughes of Woodside: My Lords, in the Minister’s should not get too far into prior history here. There is Statement he repeatedly says that there were failures a risk that I will get drawn into these matters. It was of the regulatory system and it was matter of greed, Mr Gordon Brown and Mr Ed Balls who espoused and so on and so forth. What was going on was not a very explicitly the virtues of light-touch regulation, failure. It was deliberate criminal deceit. Under those and that was the environment in which these traders circumstances, how can the Minister possibly say that operated. criminal charges should be the last resort rather than the first resort? By all means, let us try to tidy up the system. In view of what appears to be absolute, outright Lord Empey: My Lords, LIBOR rates could not criminality, we should recall that fraudsters rely on the have been interfered with by one institution alone. fact that they will escape the law through such mealy- There would have to be accomplices. I therefore presume mouthed words. that that is one of the directions in which the investigation will go. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am certainly not going Is the time ever going to come again in this country to jump to premature conclusions which are not for when someone takes professional responsibility for the Government—or, I suggest, other Members of what is going on, leaving aside the criminal activities this House—to jump to, about what is or is not that will be pursued by the regulatory authorities? Is criminal activity. I have made it quite clear in repeating no one going to take professional responsibility and my right honourable friend’s Statement that investigations suffer a professional sanction if they are found in continue by the FSA and the Serious Fraud Office. We default? will hear the views of the appropriate authorities in Finally, sadly, we as taxpayers own substantial numbers due course on these matters, but those investigations of banks. Can the Minister assure the House that are ongoing. there is no such activity in institutions that are owned or partly owned by the taxpayer? Lord McAvoy: My Lords, from every noble Lord and noble Baroness who has spoken there has been Lord Sassoon: My Lords, on the first point made by consensus on the seriousness of this, and also about the noble Lord, Lord Empey, as I have said, other making sure that the appropriate steps are taken to, at banks are being looked at by the relevant supervisory the very least, prevent a repeat of it. However, moving authorities here and in other countries. All that is forward should be done on the basis of honesty and ongoing. I very much endorse what the noble Lord has not scoring cheap points. It is regrettable that the to say about the profession taking responsibility. If the Minister used the word “clueless” to describe the banking industry wants to be thought of as a profession, previous Government. If the Government want consensus, clearly it should think about how it re-establishes as everyone who has spoken does, they should make professional standards. I speak as a chairman of the sure that there is no repeat of that, or they might be ifs School of Finance, the former Institute of Bankers, asked what measures their party proposed during that so I feel very strongly about that and believe that the time. profession needs to think about it very clearly. I am not aware of public authorities being involved. Lord Sassoon: My Lords, during earlier parts of I can be pretty clear that no public body is involved in today, I have criticised the former Government’s behaviour any way in the LIBOR-setting regime and is therefore and policies on certain matters. I have commended not involved in what we are discussing this afternoon. certain things that they had done. In this case, I stand by the words of my right honourable friend the Chancellor. Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, would the noble Lord Foster of Bishop Auckland: Does the Minister Lord remind us of the basis of company law? In agree that the apparently noble gesture of the directors whose interests are the banks supposed to be operating? of Barclays in waiving their bonuses this year is not Is it, in some sense, the public interest, the customer’s good enough? I will be pretentious and say that we, the interest, the worker’s interest? Whose interest is being people, demand that they pay back every bit of the served by the banks? Is he satisfied that there is now a bonuses for the years in question. general perception in this country that it is not like that at all and that the banks are operating in the While we are talking about this, I cannot remember— interest of some people at the top of the banks? because I have been in this place for so long—whether the process of deregulation was begun by the Minister’s Government. It was the noble Baroness herself who Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I think the issue here is elevated greed to a virtue. Then the whole international that, whatever the law says about the way in which the financial consensus pleaded with us all for soft-touch banks have to operate, the behaviour that has been regulation. That is what they got. We were wrong, but exposed in this case is that of naked greed, and that is they were wrong for exploiting it. They, and not the completely unacceptable whatever the legal framework. two Governments who have been involved, are culpable. It is at heart an ethical question as much as anything 375 FSA Investigation into LIBOR[LORDS] Education and Training 376

[LORD SASSOON] the USA authorities that undermined a major institution, else, as I see it, and is quite independent of the legal and we should not forget that. These things are never framework around it. Whatever the requirements of isolated. the boards vis-à-vis shareholders and other parties, at the heart of this—as has been exposed very clearly by Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am always interested by these extraordinary e-mails—were individuals behaving my noble friend Lord James of Blackheath’s sometimes in a most extraordinary way. remarkable interventions. I think we are a little off the LIBOR case at the moment. Lord Marlesford: My Lords, is not one of the most serious aspects of this whole thing the potential economic consequences that are going to come from Education and Training: People with the reputational damage to the City of London, which is so important to the British economy? Would he Hidden Disabilities agree that the only way of restoring reputation from Motion to Take Note malfeasance is to seek out and deal very publicly with those who are responsible? Does he remember—I 2.45 pm remember all too well, as I declare myself to have been a victim of it—the malfeasance in Lloyd’s of Moved By Lord Addington London, which was never really sorted out because no one was held to book and certainly no one suffered That this House takes note of accessible education any particular penalty that I can recollect. One thing and training for those with hidden disabilities such that they seem to be able to do in the United States is as dyslexia and autism. to deal very severely with individuals who are found to have misbehaved from positions of great financial Lord Addington: My Lords, first, I thank everyone responsibility. who has taken the trouble to put their names down for this debate. I must also declare a series of interests. I Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I completely agree with am not only dyslexic but vice-president of the British my noble friend Lord Marlesford that the reputational Dyslexia Association and patron of the Adult Dyslexia consequences here are very serious. I stress the point Organisation, and I work for Microlink, a company that this is not simply a London or a UK banks’ issue that provides support for those with disabilities and of as it appears. The inquiries clearly cover other regulators which I am chairman. and other banks and we will see where they go. However, When I linked autism and dyslexia and included it is precisely because of the significant reputational them in hidden disabilities, the main point that I was damage that the Chancellor has come forward immediately trying to make was that anything that is not easily with his response, which I repeated this afternoon. spotted at the start of the educational process, whenever On the question of Lloyd’s of London, without someone chooses to take that, leads to problems if it repeating the tortured and difficult history there, it is impedes one’s learning or classroom situation. How worth saying that after a long and difficult period for early one gets in and identifies the problem is crucial. that market, Lloyd’s of London is at the forefront I will say only a few words on autism, starting with again of the world’s specialist insurance market. It has Asperger’s, for the simple reason that there are many a critical position and is, I believe, stronger than ever. people in the Chamber who know far more about the While we certainly do not want to go through a long subject and can talk from greater depth of knowledge and difficult period, as Lloyd’s of London did, it does than I will ever be able to. Those with Asperger’s, who show that well-regulated markets in London are capable are on the edge of a spectrum, are often identified of leading the way in innovation and value-adding in later as a result of interaction with other people outside financial markets. the home when it becomes less difficult to spot. This would be made much easier if someone was trained in Lord James of Blackheath: I make one observation, the initial stages of education and in the classroom, perhaps as a correction of the comment made by the and indeed if that training was not a limited introduction, noble Lord, Lord Marlesford. I speak as the former to be able to spot it later on as problems start to chairman of the committee that created Equitas for manifest themselves, often simply because they were the solution of the Lloyd’s of London problem and not dealt with earlier. put in place the Equitas solution. The difficulties with The problems of social interaction—taking things Lloyd’s of London were caused, to a very large extent, too literally; not being able to communicate properly; by another great failure of regulation by a parallel non-verbal communication, which is so important market in America. It was not wholly a United Kingdom even when talking in this Chamber—create other problems problem. The problems of Lloyd’s of London were if they are not picked up. We must have someone who exacerbated to an alarming extent by the failure of the can recognise these problems and get in earlier. I am US authorities to regulate the clubs that were put really calling for people to be trained throughout the together for litigation purposes on a group class action education process to pick these up. Also, education basis relating to asbestosis, which allowed open, free and training are supposed to be lifelong. All conditions entry to anyone who wanted to join, regardless of the for which there is not this embedded knowledge, and fact that they had never been near a scrap of asbestos even sometimes when there is, are going to be spotted in their whole life. This is what created the enormity of later on in life. Therefore, we must not limit ourselves the problem. It was a massive failure of regulation by to training just in the education sector. 377 Education and Training[28 JUNE 2012] Education and Training 378

I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Hill, may Aside from this, going into my personal history, I find himself having questions directed at me that wonder how many other people in this Chamber have might go to BIS, to the Department for Work and been congratulated on their improving handwriting on Pensions, or to the Department of Health—certainly Christmas cards in their forties. in the case of autism. We had a little exchange earlier in the week when he asked what the best lead department Lord Storey: The opposite! would be to drive something. I suggest that when it comes to some of these conditions, the Department for Education could be of the most benefit, certainly Lord Addington: My noble friend says “the opposite”. for dyslexics. The basic few examples that I have given I look forward to hearing from him later on. for autism and dyslexia are very clearly there. It is something that stays with you, and you have a different developmental pattern. Sir Jim Rose said in A good point is dyslexia, because the problem his report: occurs when one starts to use written language. Dyslexia, “Dyslexia is a learning difficulty that primarily affects the which I believe means “difficulty with words” in Greek, skills involved in accurate and fluent word reading and spelling … becomes apparent of course when one starts to learn Characteristic features of dyslexia are difficulties in phonological to read and write. To access all forms of education and awareness”— training in our society as we are going through, one I shall not try to say that twice— has to have those two basic skills. If you do not deal “verbal memory and verbal processing speed … Dyslexia occurs with those, you are at an eternal disadvantage. across the range of intellectual abilities”. This situation is getting more prominent—I was There is a great deal more in that vein to be found about to say worse—for the simple reason that as we in the document from Dyslexia Action. It is always formalise our skill base more, measure it and try to there, and you will always have a different learning support people, there are more and more occasions process, which means that every time you go into a when you have to write something down or react to new phase of your educational and training process written information. Whether it is on paper or on the you will always have the problem. The way in which it screen, that requirement is always there. There is a is dealt with will change over time, as will the way in greater emphasis on the written paper in the modern which you deal with it and your interactions with driving test, as opposed to the one that I took. I do not other people. That will change under the pressures on have to go on much further because we can all think of you, but it is always there. If we get teachers trained examples. That is what we have if we do not deal with initially and then make sure that others throughout the situation for certain people. the system have the support and knowledge of what was happening, we will take a huge step forward. We It is reckoned that 10% of the population are on the must make sure that the interaction and the different dyslexia spectrum. I think it is 1% for autism. We learning process never become a barrier. We must could have mentioned many other hidden spectrums, allow people to explain it. such as ADHD, dyspraxia and dyscalculia. We are If someone has the condition explained to them, probably getting up to about 15% without trying. I do they start to be able to take the appropriate steps to not know what that percentage is in every classroom, mitigate the condition. If a teacher goes up to a child but it is a very high one, so we must have a degree of and says, “You’re not stupid, you’re dyslexic”, that knowledge based in that classroom for early intervention. teacher and all other teachers have an infinitely better chance of a positive relationship than they would if Why have I brought this matter forward at this they did not identify the problem. You can then go present time? It is because we are having a look at the and tell the parents. The dyslexia world is full of the whole special educational needs sector—we are coming recurring story of parents saying, “My child is dyslexic down the track. The Government have made proposals. and I have discovered that I am”. How do people get However, I do not know whether this was intentional—I through life? They will say, “I never take notes—I hope that it was not—but the people concerned with always ask someone to do it for me”—as a result of these non-obvious disabilities have heard warning bells having never kept a pen on their person for more than rung by some of the language that was used. This may about three seconds at a time. They are dependent on be a chance for the Minister to muffle those bells a partners, and so on. Those are the success stories. little in the process of his speech. I refer to things like, “We will concentrate on things and get a whole cross- In our prison population, about 70% or 80% are departmental approach towards making sure that people reckoned to have problems with literacy. Every single go through. We will cut down the number of people assessment of the prison population that has looked at on the special educational needs register. We will it has come up with the figure of about 50% being in concentrate better”. the dyslexia spectrum. If you take on board the idea that if you cannot access education you cannot access Unless we have people with expertise based in the training because you cannot go through the process front, identifying the problem, we cannot do these with a technical ability to read and write—and thus things. Even if we redefine someone with dyslexia as you cannot get employment—you have a far greater not having a special educational need, because the likelihood of becoming an offender. Asperger’s, I am system can use it, they are still dyslexic, and dyslexic afraid, is also highly represented. Possibly not throughout their lives. It is not something that you get communicating as other people do might lead to conflict. rid of; it is a disability and it is to do with the It is a very complicated and worrying situation. If you organisation of your brain. It is there for ever, as I do not get in there early and coherently, it will cause know to my cost. problems. 379 Education and Training[LORDS] Education and Training 380

[LORD ADDINGTON] aspect, it will leave people with a wonderful set of What do I want done? Sir Jim Rose presented, skills for one part of their lives and leave them to fall under the previous Government, a model for the better off a cliff the next. training of dyslexics within the teacher training programme. You have to make sure that that is used 2.59 pm not only in the initial training but throughout the system. Throughout the process of training, it is equally Baroness Browning: My Lords, I refer the House to appropriate. The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, might the Register with my interest in autism charities. It is a well be able to regale my noble friend on the Front great privilege to follow my noble friend who has Bench with the long series of meetings that we have brought the debate to the Floor of the House today. had over apprenticeships. The previous Government He is a passionate advocate, particularly for those with decided that they would reassure employers about dyslexia, and also always speaks out for those with standards in training and said that everyone must pass what he termed—I think quite rightly—the “hidden an English key skills—now functional skills—test. disabilities”. As he said, somebody can meet someone When challenged on this, they said that they would they do not know, talk to them, observe them and not make a change, but I think that it fell through the think that there is a problem—particularly with dyslexics cracks in the changeover of Governments. All I know and those with autism, and those on the more able end is that I have spent the better part of two years chasing of the autistic spectrum such as people with Asperger’s around to get those people the same support and help syndrome. to get an apprenticeship that you currently have to get Although there is still so much more to do, we a degree—or at least for there to be no greater barriers. know that several things have been done that have At the last meeting I had, it was agreed that assisted improved matters for all these children. When I started technology could probably be used to get through this out as an MP more than 20 years ago, I remember in test. Someone said, “Well, no one has complained my constituency casework meeting professionals both about it—we haven’t had one letter or e-mail”. You get in education and in health—doctors and teachers—who that degree of resistance further up. I have had meetings denied that autism or dyslexia existed at all. There with the Department for Work and Pensions, usually were parents in my constituency who were paying under the last Government. There is nothing new here. privately for their dyslexic children to have tuition on They said, “Well, yes, we’ve got people with needs who Saturday while their classroom teachers denied that are long-term unemployed. We should help them”. such a condition existed. “How?” “Oh, it’s complicated—we’d have to get more It has been a real battle to get autism up the training packages”. “Yes, please do”. The Department agenda. Of course, both Houses agreed in the previous for Education is uniquely placed to set a precedent for Parliament to an Autism Act. I say to my noble friend good training and awareness. That department can that I am increasingly concerned at the number of drive this. If it cannot, it can at least build the engine government departments that seem to be oblivious to and hope that someone else will put their foot on the the fact that there is an Autism Act on the statute accelerator. book. Yes, it does focus very much on health, social We must do something here to address the problem. care and integration—but it particularly affects those Some 10% of the population with dyslexia are in transition out of education through those very underachieving in many cases, sometimes becoming a difficult years into adulthood. I urge my noble friend—as drag on our society. The figures for autism might be I have urged other colleagues in other government smaller, but the problem is as profound, man for man, departments—to make sure that, when they are legislating if not more so. We have to try to address the problem, and looking at codes of practice, they look at what the but we will not do so unless we get a greater degree of House has determined should be the future for people awareness throughout the system. We have to get coming out of education who are on the autistic agreement. Every time a dyslexic has to deal with a spectrum. form, they are at a disadvantage. Every time you ask In the classroom there are so many things that someone to fill in a process that has anything to do relate both to dyslexia and to the more able children with reading and writing, a dyslexic is potentially on the autistic spectrum. I was very interested to see disadvantaged. We have to make sure that at all these the article, “Dyslexia Still Matters”, in Dyslexia Action, points there is someone there who understands and, which sets out effective practice that would make when you say, “I am dyslexic”, will understand that a difference. There were four very simple points, any slight adaptions should be made. Assistive voice to of which could apply to autism as well. The first text and text to voice technology is very old beer now. referred to: I have been using it personally for over 12 years. It is “A whole school ethos that respects individuals’ differences, now comparatively easy to use. We have a way forward. maintains high expectations for all”. This is something that could be integrated into the We know that children who are different in any way classroom more easily.It need not be that big a problem— very quickly become subject to playground bullying all you need is slightly different patterns of dealing and name-calling. All too often in a classroom situation with this. it will become apparent to other children that they are I look forward to hearing from my noble friend struggling with the work. This of course applies to when he replies that the Government are taking this both autism and dyslexia. I hope that we have gone on board and that his department is driving this past the stage where they are subject to name-calling through the whole machinery of government. If it by teachers. That sounds rather shocking but I can does not do so and merely concentrates on the schools think of several examples where teachers told children 381 Education and Training[28 JUNE 2012] Education and Training 382 that they were “thick”. These memories will have statements; I cannot think of how many constituents I remained with them well into their adulthood. One have gone into battle for who wanted a statement or can only speculate on the impact that this had on both challenged one, and I feel that statementing helped their self-confidence and their ability and willingness a great many children—there is at least a need for to learn in later life. all children, statemented or not, to come through Dyslexia Action also refers to: education with their needs being assessed and recognised. “Knowledgeable and sensitive teachers who understand the That is important not just while they are in the classroom; processes of learning”. it is equally important when they go through that I am a great advocate of integrated education for transitional period of adolescence and into adulthood, children with a whole range of disabilities but I draw when they may need to access training such as a line where the school does not understand the apprenticeships, further education or, in many cases, condition well enough to take those practical steps— higher education, which a great many of these children very often environmental ones—that will enable a are capable of obtaining if they have the right package child to learn. I emphasise “learn” because there are of support. children who because of their nature sit passively at I want to share something with my noble friend. I the back of the classroom and allow education to suspect that his colleague in another place, Sarah wash over them year after year. It is quite common, for Teather, will already be aware of it because on 11 July example, that children with autism are very sensitive she will address the All-Party Parliamentary Group to light and noise—even to the noise of a lot of for Autism. The group has put together recommendations children talking in close proximity. They struggle to that we believe should apply to all autistic children. concentrate and hold on to thought processes and This will read across to other children. The eventually give up. recommendations are that every school should have What happens to those children? It is not rocket a lead teacher for autism, and that all children science. There have been enough studies into this for and young people with autism and special educational us to be able to deal with it. It should not be an needs should have an action plan, whether or not they ongoing problem. These children start to develop what have a statement, so that as they move through the we might describe as challenging behaviour in the transition period a record of what their educational classroom. The children—particularly the autistic ones— needs were in school can go with them. The thing who start to chuck the chairs about are the ones who about children and education is that how you suddenly get the attention. The ones who sit quietly at communicate with them when they have a communication the back and end their school days without the benefit disorder will apply as much when they become of the proper education that their intelligence tells you adults as it did when they were in the classroom. We that they were clearly capable of obtaining—they are are now talking about skills and services for life because, the ones we are letting down. I come back to those as my noble friend said, they will have this condition who start throwing the furniture about. Challenging throughout adulthood—it does not apply only to the behaviour is difficult for any teacher in a classroom classroom. setting. We are all aware of the need for the teacher to The all-party group also recommends that there think of the whole class and not just that one child should be meaningful support for all young people who, on an ongoing basis, may be disrupting the with autism and SEN up to 25 years of age, including education of the others. those who are not in further education. Some of these I must say to my noble friend that I have concerns children, including some of the brightest, take a few and have had them for a long time. Although the more years than other people, because of their needs, Government—and the previous Government—no longer to get there. If you do not give them the opportunity, believe that so many statements should be issued, one the cut-off points in terms of their age can be detrimental. of the reasons for trying to obtain a statement for a We have had debates in this House about the need to difficult child in a classroom setting concerns the consider the needs of children through to age 25, and I allocation of extra teaching hours for a teaching assistant. think that the Government have been receptive. I hope All too often that teaching assistant is not trained in that my noble friend will accept this. the needs of that individual child—whether dyslexic, Of the adult community with autism, 60% rely on dyspraxic or autistic—but is used all too often to assist their families for financial support and 40% live with the teacher with the general management of the class their parents. Many people who have adult children as a whole. Therefore, the need for the individual child with autism and other types of lifelong disability who has a statement of educational needs to really would recognise immediately that parenting is for motor on with their education is something that, very life—it is for as long as you can continue to support often, is not addressed just by having a teaching that child. There are, therefore, very elderly pensioners assistant in the classroom, particularly in respect to supporting pension-age children. That is not unusual. autistic children. It is important that we address the fact that many of Of course, autistic children are different. It is a these adults are sitting at home without the training or danger to just lump them all together. Their needs opportunity to make the positive contribution that will be different. They are individuals. Their teaching needs many of them would like to make. That does not mean will be best addressed by an environment and a that you can just fix them up with a job. I commend teaching process that recognise what those needs are— my noble friend Lord Freud, who is not here, for which needs to be put together after very careful personally taking a great interest in seeking to raise assessment. If we are going down the route of not the number of people with Asperger’s syndrome who having as many statements—I am a great advocate of get into work. He has set up a group that is liaising 383 Education and Training[LORDS] Education and Training 384

[BARONESS BROWNING] That was the tenor of some of the remarks. The report with employers to show them that such people, with goes on to say: the right package of support, can make a great “Difficulties in their children’s learning are not picked up early contribution to their own independence in paid enough”. employment and to the economy of the country. I say no more. However, we should recognise that some issues I return to type 1 diabetes. I attended a meeting in regarding disabilities in training and employment in the House only this week on the research that is taking the workplace are more easily resolved than others. place on type 1. However, I fear a real breakthrough Some adaptations for disabilities, after management on causes and treatment is yet to come. The causes are has been made aware and has put in practical adaptations, not properly understood and more research on such do not subsequently take up any management time. things as artificial pancreases is required. Despite all This is particularly the case with the Asperger’s group. the care in the world, and even with the modern They need ongoing support in the workplace—although pumps that are worn by children, there is no assurance not to do the job; they can do some high-level jobs—and that the sugar/blood condition, if that is the correct someone who understands how they function. How term, is correct at all times. The problem can be the individual functions and what works for them is as particularly acute at night and I would not weary the important in the classroom as it is in the workplace. House by reciting the number of telephone calls that We should help them make that transition and give sometimes have to be made at night to an absent them as much support and education in the workplace parent, of the type the noble Baroness referred to, as we provide in the classroom. when the child is away on school activities. As far as education is concerned, it boils down to this: there is no guarantee what condition the child 3.14 pm with this problem will be in the next morning. It is an unremitting battle to take every step to avoid a Lord Morris of Aberavon: My Lords, I sincerely hypoglycaemic event—the right blood-sugar level is congratulate the noble Lord on winning the ballot for crucial. If a child has had a difficult night, even if he this very important debate on the disabled. I want to avoids a hypo, I suspect he is not in as good a frame of widen the range of his examples, because there are mind as his counterparts to face difficult and testing others who are disabled in different ways and there are exams. It is very bad luck indeed if he has had a hypo general lessons to be learnt from the problems arising the night before or even an unacceptable blood-sugar from how we deal, or fail to deal, with one form of level. Should one make allowances for this kind of disability, which then reflects on somebody else. I note disability or for any other disability? the remarks of the noble Baroness who has just sat In a different world, I read of questions being asked down on the importance of parenting, which is a about some notable individuals who have distinguished lifetime problem. That is significant, too, for the disability themselves in Paralympics in the past and I read press that I will deal with. reports as to whether they were really as disabled as it I take part in this debate without any expertise was thought at the time. As a criminal lawyer, who has whatever, not even “a veneer of expertise”, as Mr Clegg had the privilege of examining and cross-examining has apparently said. I declare an interest as one of my medical experts over the years in a whole range of grandchildren suffers from type 1 diabetes. It is a cases and conditions, I know that some judgments in disability that is particularly acute for the young. I am these fields frequently have a degree of subjectivity. happy to say that he is able to do most things except Hence, the inevitable difficulty of getting acceptable contact sports such as rugby, which is a pity. He sails, yardsticks on which to make allowances. fences and skis, which pose no difficulty. I have been I do not wish to traverse subjects such as cot deaths trying for some time to get separate figures for research but we will all have read about the cases, some of into type 1 diabetes, as opposed to type 2, the latter of which I have been involved in, that involve a huge which affects, in the main, older people. Type 1 sufferers— amount of controversy. Part of the difficulty of getting the young in the main—are growing in number at an yardsticks is that the degree of subjectivity can be very alarming rate. At last, I think I am making a breakthrough high. in the answers I am getting, which I appreciate. I believe I heard the Minister, some months ago, responding I fear that I have no real answer to the question of to a question on the issue of education for the disabled. how best to deal educationally with a child who has He was both understanding and appreciative, and I been close to or, worse still, has developed a hypo the said that if the opportunity arose I might say something night before his exams. Perhaps the way forward—this in the future. I believe it is only in recent years that point has general application—is for examiners to some of the difficulties of children with problems, have some sort of guidelines concerning the need, to sometimes underlying ones, are being understood better be accepted by preliminary identification. I have dealt and allowances made for them. with one disability but the same applies to the kinds of When I was at school, and even while my children cases on which the noble Lord has concentrated. were small, the problems of a child with dyslexia were The answer—these are only suggestions—may be not properly taken account of. Today’s report from to provide extra time in an exam for any child with a Dyslexia Action states: disability, or perhaps, appreciating the problems that “Knowledge, understanding and expertise is patchy and Dyslexia might be entailed, some flexibility over the timing, Action too often still hears accounts of parents struggling to have perhaps postponing an examination for just a few their concerns recognised and addressed at school”. hours. Such conditions would be helpful in ensuring 385 Education and Training[28 JUNE 2012] Education and Training 386 recognition of the problems of any disabled child, not intervene until he was three, by which time his whatever his disabilities. A temporary blip in a child’s fairly normal vocabulary for his age at two had all but condition should not be allowed to endanger a proper disappeared. assessment of his talents or perhaps handicap him For parents with a child with severe ASD, working unnecessarily in his further educational prospects. with their child and supporting him through his therapy and exercises is a full-time job. It is an enormous 3.21 pm commitment, often meaning that they have to give up their own career, with the resultant stress on the family Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I, too, congratulate budget. However, if the condition is caught early my noble friend Lord Addington on securing this enough and appropriate interventions are provided, important debate. the results can allow that disabled young person to be When reading the briefing material that came to quite functional and lead a pretty normal life. However, those of us who had our names down to speak in this adjustments have to be made in the education and debate, there was one particular statistic that jumped work place and the person supported to reach his full out at me. It was that, in a study carried out in 2003, educational potential and then become a productive 41% of a sample of 1,000 unemployed people were worker. Even NICE says that this is a cost-effective dyslexic. I do not know whether there has been an intervention. update, because that was almost 10 years ago, but it is In schools, if the condition is not detected, as a pretty damning figure. Therefore, if your Lordships Charlie Taylor, the Government’s behaviour adviser do not mind, I am going to stretch the topic of this told the education Select Committee this week, it can debate very slightly beyond education and training result in bad behaviour. The noble Baroness, Lady into the employment which we hope will result from Browning, has given us some graphic examples of them and which is an important component of a that. As he pointed out, this is not the child’s fault and fulfilled life. should not be treated as such. Sadly, many employers An example from the Dyslexia Foundation about also do not understand the conditions that we are an organisation called Training Plus Merseyside in my talking about today and make no allowances. city of origin, Liverpool, was instructive. In 2004, it Another thing that struck me in the briefings was was told that 4% of its clients had a special educational the statement from Ambitious about Autism that: need. It obviously had a hunch that this was a gross “At 16, young disabled people hold the same aspirations to underestimate, so it did something about it. It did stay in education and find fulfilling careers as their non disabled some staff training, invested in screening tools, paid peers”. for psychological assessment and used ICT interventions, Well, of course they do; but, sadly, only one child in and it found that the real figure was nearer to 30%. four with autism continues their education beyond What that tells me is that, at least at that time, the school due to lack of suitable courses and lack of number of people slipping through the diagnosis net support. However, many do persist and get university at school was far too large and many of those were degrees. When you think of the struggle that they have landing up as NEET—not in education, employment had, it is tragic to learn that a quarter of graduates or training. Indeed, all young people with disabilities with autism are unemployed. That is much higher for are two and a half times more likely to fall into the their age group despite the fact that seven out of 10 NEET category than their fully able peers. Of course, employers who have autistic employees report a very there is a large cost, both personal and economic, to positive experience and would recommend employing this, so we need to get it right at the education stage people with autism to other employers. It is a terrible before the situation becomes entrenched. waste of talent after such a struggle. It is no wonder The Government understand the importance of that many of them succumb to mental health problems, early diagnosis and intervention and have announced welfare dependency, and so on. This must change. professional assessments of children’s health and The Government have introduced the YouthContract development at the ages of two and five, as well as the to help unemployed young people to get into work, phonics check at year one in primary school. I hope and I think we can safely assume that many of them one can assume that the two and five year-olds’ checks will have dyslexia or autism, or may be somewhere on are done by multidisciplinary, experienced professionals, either of those spectrums. Can my noble friend the but the phonics test will be administered by ordinary Minister tell me what special provision is being made classroom teachers. That is why it is so essential that within the Youth Contract for these young people? If all teachers, in their initial training, have a meaningful it is not for them, who is it for? It is doubly important SEN unit, including information about how to recognise that these young people are catered for with appropriate and source appropriate help for children who achieve courses and support into work, especially in the light low scores in the phonics test and who therefore may of the impending duty to stay in education or training suffer from dyslexia at some level. until the age of 17 and then 18. Of course, it is far more likely that the parents will I return to education and the much more common have noticed a problem—particularly with that other condition of dyslexia. The Government have made hidden disability, ASD—long before the child goes to clear their deep commitment to improving literacy. primary school. It is really sad that so many of them They are also changing and improving initial teacher say that they struggle to access appropriate care in training and continuing professional development. These therapies. I met a parent recently who noticed something two things go together. In this country we work with wrong when their child was two and sought medical teachers to improve their practice. We do not sack advice when he was two and a half. The doctors would head teachers on national television, as Michelle Rhee, 387 Education and Training[LORDS] Education and Training 388

[BARONESS WALMSLEY] together and try to unite them in a common strategy. the director of education in Washington DC did. We After all, the process is the same, as I shall discuss, and have nothing to learn from a city that let its schools get it is only individuals with particular problems who into such a bad state, where half of 15 year-olds were have to be treated differently within an overall strategy. illiterate and 1,000 teachers were considered incompetent. I declare an interest as chairman of the All-Party Things are different here. Group on Speech and Language Difficulties. Currently Will my noble friend the Minister say whether all we are conducting an inquiry into the links between the future vehicles for initial teacher training—including speech, language and communication needs and social the ones in the new training schools—will have a disadvantage. I shall mention some of the emerging compulsory SEN component, including training in evidence that we are getting because it is relevant to how to recognise dyslexia and how to access the right this issue. In that connection, we have had two days of support? Can he also say what is being done about evidence this week, which I have found the most teaching assistants? Again, the noble Baroness, Lady valuable and inspiring days I have spent in this House, Browning, mentioned their importance. They are now listening to practitioners in the field. an indispensible component of the staff of modern As I have explained to the House, my motivation schools—especially primary schools—so it is vital that stems from an experience in a young offender they have opportunities to specialise in supporting establishment in Scotland when the governor said to teachers with children with disabilities or special needs me that if he had to get rid of all his staff, the last one in their classrooms—which, actually, is most of them—and out of the gate would be his speech and language that they have a clear career path if that is the way they therapist. When I asked why, he explained that the want to go. Can the Minister say something about offenders could not communicate either with each that? other or with the staff, and until and unless they It surprised recently to discover that the Open could, no one knew what to do with and for them. University teaching courses, often used by teaching I met the marvellous woman who was carrying out assistants to move on to be a full teacher, do not have this work and asked her what she did. She said she had the option to specialise in SEN. One has to do a assessed them all and found hideous shortcomings, general teaching degree first. This is a pity as many which she was able to do something about. I asked her teaching assistants already have good experience with who was the best person in England to do this work children with special needs and could do well on a and she named a professor at Surrey University, who I specialist teaching course. If this is not correct, I hope asked to come with me into a young offender someone will give me the information. establishment, and she did. She assessed the boys there As we have heard, Dyslexia Action is calling for a and found all kinds of things which were not being national dyslexia and literacy strategy. You cannot picked up in other assessments conducted in reading, have a literacy strategy without addressing dyslexia. writing and other skills. As the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, has pointed These include substance-abuse-induced memory loss, out, there are four simple key elements: whole school hearing problems and sight problems. Most telling of ethos; knowledgeable teachers; creative adaptations to all, however, 100% had the communication difficulties classroom practice so that all children can be included; associated with 1% of the population. Clearly, there is and access to additional learning programmes and a link in all this. I will not bore the House, but sufficient resources. This does not seem too much to subsequent work in putting two speech and language ask and I hope the Minister can assure us that this will therapists into young offender institutions for two happen. years, academically evaluated, proved within a month that they were an absolutely essential part of the 3.31 pm establishment. Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I, too, thank the Secondly, it identified very clearly that picking up noble Lord, Lord Addington, and congratulate him these problems at the age of 15 was far, far too late. It on obtaining this debate. Like other noble Lords, I has got to be done earlier. It is not just being able to admire the determination with which he has pursued engage with the people who were looking after them in these issues on many occasions in the House. I welcome the young offender establishment; they had missed out the fact that we are debating this issue with the Minister on being able to engage with teachers throughout the because, from our exchanges both during education whole process of life until then. No doubt, that failure Bills and subsequently, I know what a keen interest he had a lot to do with the fact that they were in those takes in these matters. Knowing that we are dealing establishments. He made this statement to me, which I with and talking to someone who has such an interest have never forgotten, that the inability to communicate is encouraging for those of us who have concerns in was the scourge of the 20th century, and it is certainly this area. that of the 21st century. I couple that sentiment with I, too, have benefitted from the briefing that we two other statements that I have repeated on many have had for this debate, particularly from Dyslexia occasions in this House. One was the marvellous remark Action. However, I do not want to speak only about of Winston Churchill’s in 1910 that, dyslexia because I find from the briefings that I get “there is a treasure, if you can only find it, in the heart of every from organisations in all the various parts of the man”, spectrum—ADHD, autism and so on—that they all with the clear implication that it is your duty to find it. have similar areas of concern. The best thing we can Secondly, it is my firm belief that the only raw material do is to bring all those groups and their concerns that every nation has in common is its people, and woe 389 Education and Training[28 JUNE 2012] Education and Training 390 betide it if it does not do everything that it can to We then heard what is being achieved in Stoke-on- identify, nurture and develop the talents of all its Trent. It has adopted a motto to the effect that people, because if it does not and it fails, it has only communication is everyone’s business and regards itself to blame. intervention as a multi-agency activity. Some 5,000 people have been trained to identify symptoms. They Thinking that through, therefore, I am very concerned are not only teachers and parents, but policemen and that people with hidden difficulties and disabilities voluntary sector workers. People are on the lookout which could be identified early must have them identified, for these things and the response is co-ordinated. so that the talents and the treasure can be nurtured Stoke has developed a staged pathway which I believe and developed not just for their benefit, but for the is a model that others could follow with advantage. benefit of the nation as a whole. In preparing for this Indeed, Staffordshire has been fortunate to have had debate, I looked at my shelves upstairs and I was for many years some visionary people working in this staggered at the amount of information and the number area, with research that goes back 10 years showing of reports on the subject. For instance, we had the the benefit of taking this sort of work further. Bercow report of 2008; the Department for Children, Schools and Families’ better communication plan; the We heard from representatives of children’s services Field report on the foundation years; the Marmot and speech and language therapists in Walsall. They review of health inequalities; the Allen report on early realised that children entering secondary school had intervention; a joint consultation on the new approach also not had problems identified. They have been to special educational needs from the Department for assessing people as they enter secondary school. They Education and Department of Health; the Department have been doing this as a pilot for three years and they for Education’s statutory framework for the early years; have some interesting data. Moreover, some schools the 2012 Green Paper and the pathfinders; and, only have found that they have to do these assessments not today, another document from Dyslexia Action, Dyslexia just when pupils arrive, but at various stages of their Still Matters. These reports, together with masses of passage through the school. I hope that that is not papers from the Communications Commissioner, the something which will be dismissed. It was interesting Children’s Commissioner and many practitioners, all to note that after our evidence session, the people say the same thing: that if we are going to make from Stoke married up, if you like, with the people progress, we must intervene early—and the earlier the from Walsall because they clearly reckoned that they better—to discover difficulties and disabilities and do had something to learn; you have to carry on beyond something about them as soon as possible. the early years. Carrying on is the lesson in some excellent work I turn to the evidence that we have been hearing. I that has been devised by the English Speaking Board was very pleased to hear from the Department of for enhancing employability. What is absolutely crucial Health that four new service models are being produced is the word “transition”. Whatever we do with those jointly by that department and the Department for who have hidden disabilities and difficulties, having Education, together with royal colleges, health visitors, found them, we have to concentrate on the transitions UNISON and others, with pathways for parents, children from stage to stage not only throughout their education and practitioners. Two have already been introduced; but on leaving school and making the transition into one for pregnancy and the early weeks of life and one the workplace, and then on through life. for pre- and early school from two to 10. Another two will be introduced for the nine to 19 year-olds. Later in the year we shall issue a report about this. Furthermore, I am glad to see that there is one for the It will say, frankly, that we think this is an area that criminal justice system. There is clear evidence in this needs national oversight. We are concerned that local that the health and well-being boards which were authorities will be responsible for certain parts of it, formed in the recent Health and Social Care Bill have with the healthcare and teaching sectors responsible a very important part to play in this. Interestingly, for others. Unless someone pulls all this together, however, a number of our witnesses have said how people will continue to fall through the cracks. much they wish that the phrase “mental health” was The other message that comes through strongly in eliminated from our vocabulary and “mental well-being” the report I saw today from Dyslexia Action is that the was used instead. It is a much more satisfactory term; solutions lie in using existing knowledge and good “well-being’ is a “doing” word, and might make people practice because there is masses of it out there. Rather understand the problem better. than reinvent the wheel, for heaven’s sake, let us exploit I come to the practicalities. We heard from a health the valuable expertise and experience of the marvellous visitor and a speech and language therapist from people who do this terrific work. Northern Ireland that compulsory assessments are As the title of this debate suggests, it is essential being conducted on every child at the age of two, and that appropriate teaching and training are available that health visitors have been trained by speech and and accessible to all people according to their ability language therapists to understand the symptoms they and talent. The ethos of the English Speaking Board are looking for. They are picking up difficulties as well is that every person is an individual with unique as disabilities, which is enormously encouraging. Northern capabilities and problems who must not be compared Ireland has an advantage in that health and social care with another; rather, each must be judged on their own work together, which is not the case all over the merits. I hope that the Minister will be able to assure country.The witnesses highlighted how hugely important the House that a national approach which makes this is because otherwise you begin to get fragmentation, certain that people are not allowed to slip through the which is difficult to deal with. net from the moment of an early assessment at two 391 Education and Training[LORDS] Education and Training 392

[LORD RAMSBOTHAM] understanding this complex matter. It is therefore years of age is what the practice will be, and that what necessary that the Government continue to fund the is done in Northern Ireland will become common development of successful training programmes. We practice throughout the whole of the United Kingdom. also believe that where specialist knowledge exists it should be shared. Schools should be able to draw 3.45 pm easily on the expertise of neighbouring schools. Lord Touhig: My Lords, we are indeed indebted to As a subtext, and on a matter that I have referred to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, for securing this before in the House, over 70% of youngsters excluded debate and also for the very powerful advocacy that he from school in England have SEN. That statistic should displayed when he opened it this afternoon. Finding a alarm us all. The mother of an autistic child gave job is difficult enough these days, especially if you are evidence to our All-Party Group and said, a young person. Consider how much harder it is if you “My son is very articulate and very bright, but he’s autistic. are disabled. In particular, if you are a young person The headteacher just thought that he was a naughty boy, who with learning and developmental disabilities, accessing needed some anger management, and he got excluded on a couple of occasions”. the right support and opportunities to find a job is especially challenging. On top of this, you are part of In a major National Autistic Society survey, 17% of a substantial cohort of young people with special children with autism have been suspended from school educational needs and disabilities, all of whom are at least once, and more than 4% have been excluded likely to be unemployed, too. permanently from at least one school. More than that, 32% of parents surveyed were asked to collect their In 2009, the Department for Education showed child at lunchtime or before the end of the school day that 30% of young people who had a statement of for reasons other than that the child was ill, and some special educational needs when they were doing their 19% of parents reported this happening on more than GCSEs, and 22% of young people with a declared four occasions. disability, were not in education, employment or training when they reached the age of 18. This compares with Unless this is officially recorded, these types of just 13% of their peers. The Department for Education’s exclusions are illegal, and we need to get this message National Pupil Database 2009-10 reveals that just 20% across. Experts who came to give evidence told us that of children with special educational needs and statements almost every single case of exclusion from mainstream achieved five A*-C grades—less than one-quarter of school could have been avoided had more staff been the rate for children without special educational needs. aware of the children’s needs, and had there been One person in every 100 has autism. Consider the better planning at school level to support children detrimental effect that this has on the employment with autism. prospects for adults with autism. Too many autistic On specialist support at school, our report highlights children and their families are being let down by the the fact that children with autism can have a range of special educational needs system and are struggling to complex difficulties that often need specialist support— access the support that they need. That is why I and a that is pretty obvious. Far too often, however, parents great many others welcome the Government’s decision say that this expertise is simply not available. We to reform the system through the forthcoming children certainly hope that the Government will ensure that and families Bill. all children with autism have access to the support The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, has been a that they need, including those without a statement, or great champion and we all admire the hard work she an educational health and care plan. We certainly does on behalf of people with autism. She referred to believe that every school should have a lead teacher for the All-Party Group on Autism’s recent report, The autism—a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Right Start: Reforming the System for Children with Browning. Autism, of which I have a copy. As a result of publishing Moving on to the matter of involvement of parents the report, we will press the Government to ensure and young people, we discovered that less than half of that the legislative opportunities down the tracks for parents of children with autism considered that they change will benefit all children with special educational were truly involved in shaping the support that their needs, especially and including those with autism. children need and receive at school. Autism professionals Our report, which is based on a public survey and we met agreed with this, and so did 30% of the expert evidence from young people with autism, parents, teachers. Over 90% of parents said that they wanted to teachers and professionals, leaves us believing that the be more involved, and that they wanted schools and Government’s forthcoming legislation is perhaps a local authorities to work closely with them, sharing once-in-a-generation opportunity to make some significant information and ensuring that a consistent approach change and improvement. Briefly, I will draw the is taken at home and at school. House’s attention to just five key points from the The SEN system is to be extended to 25 year-olds, All-Party Group report. They cover training and best and they, too, must be involved in the decisions that practice; specialist support at school; involvement of affect their lives. As for transition, for too many families parents and young people; transition, or the extension the struggle for services intensifies as young people of the SEN system up to 25; and accountability. reach adulthood, and as we were told in one evidence On training and best practice, 84% of respondents session, as statements of special educational need to our survey said that teachers were not given enough come to an end it often feels “like falling off a cliff”. training to teach and support children with autism The Government have decided, I believe rightly, to effectively, yet we know that training is essential to extend the SEN system to 25 year-olds, but they must 393 Education and Training[28 JUNE 2012] Education and Training 394 ensure that many more young people with autism can experienced an illegal exclusion of the type mentioned access the support and opportunities they need to live by the noble Lord in which parents are called in the independent adult lives, and that those who are able middle of the school day and told to take their child can enter apprenticeships and gain employment. Our home. Department for Education statistics show that inquiry was told by one parent, 27% of children with SEN are excluded from school a “When my son leaves school he has no future. I suggested year, which is eight times the rate of children who do work experience placements for young people with autism. At the not have SEN. Exclusions have an obviously damaging moment they have nothing”. effect on pupils’ educational progress and attainment. That is simply unacceptable. They also put pressure on parents. Many parents have In quoting the noble Lord, Lord Freud, again, I said that their child’s exclusion had a detrimental echo the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, effect on their employment and therefore on their who has been a great supporter of and friend to those family finances. who work actively on behalf of people with autism. Beyond the problems surrounding exclusion, the The noble Lord said that the Government want to current lack of teacher training in autism means that increase the number of people with autism in work to young people with autism are often in a classroom 30%, doubling it from 15%. We all share that ambition without any teaching staff who understand their needs. and we back him to the hilt in that. Quality of teaching is very important in ensuring that Finally I will touch on accountability. An important pupils with autism are appropriately recognised and aspect of any reform must be greater accountability supported and go on to reach their potential. Just one for parents. Too many parents who came to give in four young people with autism continues their evidence to us said that they had to fight constantly to education beyond school. This is in part due to a lack gain access to the support that their children needed. of suitable provision, which my noble friend Lady That is why we need an effective complaints system Walmsley mentioned, poor funding structures and a encompassing all state-funded schools, and it must be workforce that requires additional support and training a priority, in order to ensure that parents have confidence to support learners with autism. However, we know in that system. Like many others, I wait eagerly for the that young people with autism want to access employment children and families Bill, hoping and praying that it and training, and we also know that they need the will help to show us the way forward. right support in order to do so. While there is a dearth of education and training available, young people with autism have very limited options. 3.54 pm A host of reports from recent years provided evidence Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I join other noble that the transition to adulthood for young people with Lords in congratulating my noble friend Lord Addington autism and other disabilities is poor and that there is a on initiating this debate. Like them, I commend him serious lack of educational opportunities for this group. on his consistency and persistency on these topics over Ofsted states that, many years. I must first of all declare an interest as the honorary president of Ambitious about Autism, the “the real choice of education and training opportunities at 16 was national charity for children and young people with limited for many young people with learning difficulties and/or autism, and I also declare a family interest in dyspraxia. disabilities. Inspectors found few courses available for young people with the lowest levels of attainment”. We have made some progress on the education of children on the autistic spectrum over a period of What impact does this have? The social impact of years, both under the previous Government and under unemployment for young people with autism is huge. this. I pay tribute to the two current Ministers who Not continuing in education or training beyond school have shown an interest in this subject: my honourable leads to a loss of potential for young people and friend Sarah Teather and my noble friend Lord Hill, society. Disabled young people are 2.5 times more who is to reply today. I will use this important debate likely not to be in education, employment or training to highlight the situation faced by young people with than their non-disabled peers, which is a direct result autism at a slightly older age and to suggest some of failure to access appropriate education or training. solutions that might improve their ability to access Many young people with autism have very limited education, training and employment. In view of the choices when they finish school. Often their only superb contributions that have been made in the debate, options are to stay at home with their parents or go to I will inevitably echo quite a large part of what other a residential care home, often with people twice their noble Lords have said. age. Failure to provide opportunities for education and training that will lead to employment denies young What stops young people with autism accessing people with autism the right to fulfil their potential education and training? Ambitious about Autism and contribute to society. research shows that 51% of Britain’s schoolteachers have never received training to help them support In addition to social costs, failure to provide for children with autism. The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, young people with autism leads to higher long-term referred to exclusion. Children with SEN are currently financial costs. The National Audit Office found disproportionately likely to be excluded from school that £1 million per person could be saved by as a result of this lack of skills and understanding in supporting young people with learning difficulties their teachers. Responding to our research, 43% of to gain the skills to live more independently. It also parents reported that their child with autism had been found that supporting a disabled young person to formally excluded within the previous 12 months, and access work reduces lifetime costs to the public purse 55% of parents said that their child with autism had by £170,000. 395 Education and Training[LORDS] Education and Training 396

[LORD CLEMENT-JONES] aim is to establish a new community-based college So what is the solution? First, we need training for that is a partnership between specialist and mainstream all school staff in autism and an awareness of other provision. special educational needs and disabilities. I accept Lastly, I have a few points on education, training what the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said about and employment for people with Asperger’s syndrome— bringing all of this together. This could include compulsory high-functioning autism—as well as others on the SEN training and a core autism module in initial autistic spectrum. As the National Autistic Society teacher training. It is important that it is not just say, while there are similarities with autism, people teachers who are included but also teaching assistants with Asperger’s syndrome have fewer problems with and supervisory staff such as mealtime supervisors. speaking and are often of average or above-average intelligence. They do not usually have the accompanying Secondly, a school admissions code that ensures learning disabilities associated with autism but they schools and admissions authorities are obliged to place may have specific learning difficulties. These may children with autism in suitable schools is essential. include dyslexia and dyspraxia, or other conditions We must guarantee an excellent education for all children such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder or and young people with autism. It is essential that epilepsy. With the right support and encouragement, schools have fair exclusions policies that ensure exclusions people with Asperger’s syndrome can lead full and do not occur as a result of an unmet special educational independent lives. need. People with autism, including Asperger’s syndrome Thirdly, we need to ensure that government initiatives and high-functioning autism, often have much to offer such as the Youth Contract are accessible to young employers. With the right support, they can contribute people with autism and other disabilities, as a number fully to the workplace. In a study carried out by of noble Lords said. Can the Government explain Research Autism in 2008 for NAS Prospects (London) how they will make the YouthContract fully accessible on the experiences of employing people with autism, to disabled young people? Can they confirm that seven in 10 employers questioned had had a positive Access to Work funds will be available for young experience of employing someone with autism and disabled people doing internships and volunteering said they would recommend it to others. placements? The NAS has launched its Undiscovered Workforce campaign, which works at a national level with Ministers, Raising the participation age to 18 is welcome, but employers and others, and at a local level with it appears little thought has been given to what this campaigners, MPs, local businesses, universities and might mean for young disabled people, many of whom individuals. I commend that campaign. I also very are not in employment, education or training—not much welcome the particular interest shown by my through choice but through a lack of suitable provision. noble friend Lord Freud in his capacity as Welfare The raising of the participation age will help young Reform Minister—this was mentioned by the noble people only if it coincides with the development of Baroness, Lady Browning—and the interest shown in more and better educational provision. Have the employment issues by my honourable friend John Government committed the extra funding that is needed Hayes, the Employment Minister in BIS. The NAS to meet the additional needs of young disabled people seeks to increase the availability of specialist employment who are currently not participating? How have they support for those seeking work and those already in calculated the level of this need? The funding must work to transform attitudes and increase opportunities take account of all additional needs, not just those of for people across the autistic spectrum to fulfil their young people with statements of SEN. ambitions in the workplace. As part of Finished at School, Ambitious about Therefore, will the Government pull all these aspects Autism made a number of recommendations to improve together through their disability strategy, the Youth post-16 education for learners with autism. I welcome Contract and the forthcoming children and families the fact that one of those recommendations—a legal Bill—which has also been mentioned in this debate—to right to educational support for young disabled people make sure that young people with autism and others up to the age of 25—has been adopted by the with special educational needs are appropriately supported Government. I hope that, accompanying this, there to enter further education, higher education, training, will be a funding system that will give young people apprenticeships and employment? I look forward to and families more information, choice and support, a hearing what the Minister has to say. cross-government focus on outcomes and destinations for young disabled people and a further education 4.06 pm workforce with the skills to support young people with autism to achieve their ambitions. Lord Storey: My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lord Addington not just for securing this debate It is not, however, all about government action. but for his passion in making sure at every opportunity Ambitious about Autism, my own organisation, has that these matters are at the forefront of our consideration. launched a new strategy to create more and better I am sure that his determination will succeed. services beyond school age. As part of the strategy, the I declare an interest as a practising head teacher. I charity is developing and launching new services to was very mindful of what my noble friend Lady Browning enable young people with autism leaving school to said about young people being labelled in the past. continue to learn so that they can transition to living Because of their learning difficulties, they were often and working as part of their home community. Their regarded by their peers, and sometimes by their 397 Education and Training[28 JUNE 2012] Education and Training 398 professional teachers, as “thick”. From my first teaching head of special educational needs. If that resource did job, I remember a teacher who was very keen on not exist in schools, we would have to try and buy in a literacy and would test every child on their reading age specialist teacher, or we would have to go and get the every month. She had a chart on the classroom door school psychologist, which would often mean a waiting with the names of all the children—there were 40 of list of six to 12 months. Having the resource in the them then—and their monthly reading age. Because school itself, having the staff qualified and trained, some of the children had learning difficulties—sometimes makes a huge difference. specific learning difficulties, sometimes global learning What happens when a child is identified as dyslexic? difficulties and sometimes dyslexia, although we did Obviously, we involve the parents. We put together not know that at the time—their reading age never strategies in the classroom. We look at intervention moved. Therefore, the teacher would say, in an almost strategies. We look at one-to-one teaching. We look at patronising way, “Poor little Michael”, or, “Poor little a multi-sensory programme of teaching. Most of us Dominic”, or whatever their name was. That was not learn in an auditory or visual way. If a young person is the fault of the teacher but it created huge problems. dyslexic, we need to do lots of oral work and what we These were not just learning problems; as was rightly call “over-learning”—learning strategies to cope. said, it often led to bullying. What do we need to do as a country? Again, I agree This did not just happen in schools. When I was with my noble friend Lord Addington and other noble doing my education degree, I vividly remember a very Lords have made the same point. We need to ensure highly regarded lecturer in education almost dismissing that the training is there. In each school, there ought dyslexia, saying, “There’s no such thing. It’s just made to be somebody who is fully qualified. That needs to up. They don’t have dyslexia in China, do they?”. That be a crucial, integral part of our initial teacher-training was often the view at the time. Thank goodness we course. have moved on. A lot of colleagues will have had information from We then moved on to a period in which we began to Dyslexia Action, and the Dyslexia Foundation from understand dyslexia and other learning difficulties but my home town. The work that they have done to case did not know what to do about them. Resources were study and highlight has been tremendous. very limited. It would often be a parent who came into I am grateful to the Minister for always being the school and said, “I think my child is dyslexic”. The prepared to listen and give information. I think that he teacher would say, “Oh yes?”, and would eventually is probably fed up of my Questions, but I have asked get around to thinking about what might be done him a number of them on dyslexia. They not only about it, but the resources were not there. We have show that we understand what needs to be done, but come light years in what we are now able to do. Both they indentify next steps. The money that has been the previous Government and this Government have made available by the Government is to be commended. taken enormous steps regarding special educational However, looking at the uptake of funding and the needs and are to be congratulated on what they have number of people who have taken training places, done. That is not to say that there are no further things region by region—I will not embarrass various regions— that we should do. there are huge regional variations and that gives me I give one example of the progress that we have cause for concern. made, which touches my heart. A very close friend of In a recent Question I asked whether the Government mine has a daughter who has mild cerebral palsy. would consider asking teaching training providers how Although she required a bit of pushing from her many compulsory courses there were and how many parents—she was in the independent sector—she has optional courses there were. Sadly, we do not hold that been supported all the way through her education. She information centrally. We need to hold that information. is now at Leeds University, which has been fantastic in We need to know how many teacher training supporting her. She obviously has a scribe whenever establishments make this provision, so that we can she is doing exams and so on. When she could not get plug the gaps. We need to get that information. the work in on time, they said, “Come on, we’ll help I agree with my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones you and make sure that’s right”. She repeated one that we have made huge progress. I am heartened at year. This year, she will get her degree and the following what we have heard but I am absolutely sure that year she will do a two-year masters degree. That is progress will continue to be made. With the noble something of which, as a nation, we can be duly Lord, Lord Hill, a Minister who listens and I am sure proud. is prepared to act and, in the other place, a Minister, The only reason I got involved in this debate is my Sarah Teather, who believes strongly in special educational own personal experience. The previous Government needs and early intervention, I am hugely optimistic. rightly used the phrase, “every child matters”. If we are going to make sure that every child matters, that 4.15 pm has to be in everything. I look at my own school and at what we now do. First, we have an ethos that recognises Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, I thank particular special needs issues. On dyslexia, we have a the noble Lord, Lord Addington, for initiating this qualified SpLD teacher who is, thanks to government debate today. He has an impressive track record of funding, undergoing her masters. She is qualified to campaigning on these issues and both he and a diagnose specific learning difficulties. The staff are number of noble Lords have given some very well also trained to identify characteristics of learning informed and passionate contributions this afternoon. difficulties. They then use a checklist and go to the I really appreciated the opportunity to listen and 399 Education and Training[LORDS] Education and Training 400

[BARONESS JONES OF WHITCHURCH] ongoing care. We welcome the requirement for earlier learn. I would also like to place on record my thanks testing and intervention—another point made by noble to all the people—both the individuals and the Lords this afternoon. organisations—who wrote to us with some very We welcome the emphasis on providing an education constructive solutions for the way forward, but also that will help young people with disabilities into with some harrowing accounts of some of the problems meaningful employment. But given the complexities we face with these issues. of the new arrangements, and the need for parents to I begin by reiterating the point acknowledged by be reassured that there will be an improvement in the my noble friend Lord Morris, the noble Lord, Lord support given to their children, we would caution Ramsbotham, and others in the debate, that while against rushing into legislation before the outcome of dyslexia and autism represent a proportion of the the 20 pilots, which are currently experimenting with problem, there is a bigger challenge of hidden disabilities. the new proposals, have been properly evaluated. For example, to give some other statistics, more than The Minister will know that the interim report on 3 million people have asthma in the UK, one in the pathfinder pilots published this week is already 200 people had epilepsy and one in four people will flagging up some worrying concerns. For example, it is experience mental health problems—or should I say proving difficult to get agencies to work effectively mental well-being problems—with an increasing number together; assessments are being duplicated, not of young people in this category. Overall, it is estimated streamlined, as was the original intention; and the that around 70% of people with a disability in this higher costs are judged not to be sustainable. More country have a hidden disability. As the noble Lord, importantly, there are increasing criticisms that, contrary Lord Ramsbotham, rightly suggested, there is much to their stated and well received objectives, the pathfinders to commend a united strategy to tackle these issues are failing to involve young people themselves in the although there are individual elements to each of the shaping of the new services. I raised this matter in disability issues, as we know and as we have rehearsed Questions earlier in the week, and I once again urge this afternoon. the Minister to confirm that the full conclusions of the The truth is that we have improved our medical pathfinders will be evaluated before the Children and skills in diagnosis and treatment, but these have not Families Bill is published. I would be grateful for his been matched by the ongoing learning and support comments on this. guarantees necessary to enable young people to lead We would also expect the Government to set out enriched lives and fulfil their potential or—as the clearly how the funding for these new, improved services noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, put it—to enable us will be guaranteed at a time when specialist posts are to find the treasure within them. Despite the progress being lost due to deep cuts to council budgets and to resulting from the Equality Act, we are still confronting health and welfare budgets. Could the Minister explain levels of both overt and covert prejudice, institutionally how the transition from separate budget heads in and socially. These are lifelong challenges with very education, health and social care to an integrated, different solutions needed at every stage. personalised provision will work in practice? Will they As we have heard, for young people with hidden be expected at a local level to transfer funds into a disabilities in particular, even once a diagnosis has separate pot, and it will it be ring-fenced? been made there is a subsequent fear of being adversely As the Green Paper acknowledges, and a number of judged and labelled, or alternatively being disbelieved. noble Lords around the Chamber this afternoon have At the same time, young people do not want to draw said, education and training are central to addressing attention to their disability and appear to be different, the needs of young people with hidden disabilities. As either because they are embarrassed or, as we have has been mentioned, it starts with initial teacher training heard this afternoon, because they fear bullying in a courses and the need for compulsory modules on school or social environment. As a result they do not identifying, understanding and providing for children always access the funding and resources to which they across the full spectrum of disabilities. It needs to be are entitled. supplemented by specialist teachers trained in supporting While the original SEN programme played an young people in the classroom. It also requires sufficient important part in moving disability and special needs teaching assistants, properly funded and trained to towards centre stage in the design and provision of support the individual learning needs of specific children local authority, school and personalised support—I in the classroom. Those points were echoed by the thank the noble Lords who paid tribute to the previous noble Baronesses, Lady Browning and Lady Walmsley. Government’s efforts in this regard—it had undoubtedly It also requires top-class careers provision in schools, become too bureaucratic and formulaic in its execution. which can give disabled young people specific advice There were too many agencies involved, no incentives about further and higher education courses and the for joined-up services and a degree of piecemeal funding. employment options available to them. The Minister Therefore, we welcome many of the aspirations in knows our continued concern about the quality of the Government’s special educational needs Green advice being provided by the new schools-based careers Paper and their response to the consultation. We service, and we have a specific worry that children with support the concept of a single, simpler birth-to-age-25 specialist support needs will not get individual face-to-face assessment process and care plan with the right to a advice to aim their skills at achievable ambitions. personalised budget for parents and young people to Perhaps the Minister could comment on this. Surely it buy in support services. Parents tell us that these should be a fundamental right of all children throughout proposals match their aspirations for their children’s the education system to have the same rights. Can the 401 Education and Training[28 JUNE 2012] Education and Training 402

Minister clarify the legal position with regard to SEN disappointed. In this context, I look forward to hearing children having access to academy places, and their what the Minister has to say in response to this debate rights once admitted? Would he agree to review the to reassure us. legislation if it is found to discriminate against statemented or SEN children? 4.27 pm While no one would pretend that the provision in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for schools is perfect, the message from many disability Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My Lords, I would groups and individuals is that it is the transition from congratulate my noble friend Lord Addington but I school to higher or further education and ultimately think he has had enough praise already this afternoon. into meaningful employment that remains the He spoke, as I knew he would, with a great deal of biggest challenge. Parents who have seen their child knowledge. We all know the passion that he brings to have good support at school can be shocked when they the subject. I was grateful to him for doing so, and to view the adult options available when their child reaches my noble friends Lady Browning and Lord Clement-Jones, the age of 16 or 18, with specialist adult facilities and the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, who spoke with dominated by much older attendees, often with complex equal authority about autism. The noble and learned needs, or when they are faced with an FE syllabus that Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, brought up the subject does not provide courses on a full-time basis, leaving of diabetes, which I thought broadened the debate in parents struggling to provide home care at other times an interesting way. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, of the week when courses are not being provided. This spoke about speech and language difficulties, which is is why FE colleges need to be centrally involved in another manifestation of some of these issues that we pathfinders and why it is essential that they have a are seeking to find solutions to. statutory duty to be involved in the transition planning for individual young people at a very early stage in As well as being a good debate, it is a timely one their education so that appropriate provision can be because, as noble Lords have said, the Government laid on in the FE colleges to meet their needs sufficiently are introducing their children and families Bill, which in advance. in a way, I hope, sets the framework for much of what we have discussed this afternoon and how we hope to Finally, as several noble Lords have highlighted, the be able to improve things in future, because that Bill real challenge highlighted in this debate is about those seeks to put into legislation a new framework for the with hidden disabilities finding and keeping meaningful education and training of disabled children, young work. As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and the people and those with special educational needs. The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, identified, the statistics are, whole purpose of that new approach is to seek to quite frankly, depressing. Disabled people are twice as promote better and earlier identification of children’s likely to live in poverty as non-disabled people. Some needs—one of the recurring themes this afternoon—and 22% of young people with a disability were not in any a better transition from school to further education, form of education, employment or training when they higher education, adulthood and the world of work, reached the age of 18—twice the level of their peers. which I think is one of the other recurring themes of The Labour Force Survey showed that, in 2011, 41 per this afternoon. cent of men and 43 per cent of women designated To my noble friend Lord Addington, who was keen longer-term disabled were also unemployed. The result, that I should muffle some bells, I think was his phrase, as we have heard, is too many young, capable people I would say—I am sure he knows this—that the purpose trapped at home with increasingly elderly parents. of these reforms is not reclassification or trying to The Sayce report for the Department for Work and knock people off lists but about trying to bring together Pensions identified a number of solutions with which what has been too disparate a range of provisions into we concur, particularly the personalised approach and a simpler and more coherent whole. the expansion of the Access to Work scheme, which Perhaps I may set out our overall policy direction, they describe as the Government’s best kept secret. bring your Lordships up to date with the latest position This helped 37,000 disabled people into work in 2009-10. in some key areas, and then try to respond to the main However, it needs to be better funded and more focused points put to me. We have heard a number of facts this on helping those with hidden disabilities into work. afternoon. It is the case that there are some 220,000 The Government also need to focus on those with children with statements of special educational needs. mental disabilities rather than seeing their role as just Last year, there were more than 165,000 young people providing practical adaptations and support. Much aged between 16 and 18 with a self-declared learning greater emphasis should be placed on helping people difficulty or disability studying in mainstream further access mainstream apprenticeships rather than separate, education colleges. We know that these children are short-term internships, as seems to be the trend at the less likely to achieve well at school and are four times moment. less likely to participate in higher education. At 16 or These are challenging issues—particularly challenging 17, young people with learning difficulties and/or against a backdrop of central and local government disabilities are almost twice as likely as their peers not cuts and welfare reform—that might face any to be in education, employment or training. Those Government. This Government have set out ambitious figures and others that we have heard this afternoon solutions for helping those with disabilities access powerfully underline the case for reform. quality education and jobs. However, with reducing As we have been reminded, under the current system, budgets, the practical implementation may well elude needs are often picked up late, families too often have them, leaving parents and young people frustrated and to battle to find out what support is available, teachers 403 Education and Training[LORDS] Education and Training 404

[LORD HILL OF OAREFORD] child is disabled or may have SEN is a core part of the and lecturers feel hampered by bureaucracy and lack training for those health visitors. When parents have the skills and confidence to meet those needs; and concerns about their child’s development and learning, young people over 16 with SEN have weaker entitlements they will be offered additional support and, where to support in colleges than if they had stayed at appropriate, referred to another health professional school, and lack clear routes into independent living such as a speech and language therapist or a paediatrician. and work. I think there is broad agreement that the We are also working to bring together the early system needs to change and that the objectives of the years progress check at age two in the new early years Government’s reforms are the right ones. I welcome foundation stage with the healthy child programme the support given by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, health and development review at age two to two and and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, in a half. That picks up on a point made by my noble that respect. I accept her point that there are practical friend Lady Walmsley. Our long-term ambition is to issues that we will need to work through. However, the develop one properly integrated health and early years direction of travel has broad endorsement. review to support children’s development, drawing on Put simply, our goal in these reforms is that from the expertise and professionalism of both the early 2014 we will have a better integrated assessment process years and the health workforce. that is more streamlined and better involves children, young people and parents. There would be a single We are working with the Department of Health to education, health and care plan for children and young see how we can best achieve this. We have asked Jean people with statements or learning difficulty assessments Gross, the former communications champion for children for post-16 education in the current system. This and young people, to lead a group exploring ways of would help to deal with the important point raised by improving that information sharing, and are expecting my noble friend Lady Browning and others about the findings from that in October this year. Our aim is that current cut-off at 16 and the problem that brings. The the new integrated track, bringing these two aspects proposals will include an offer of a personal budget, together, will be introduced in 2015, when the additional for those who want it, to give families greater control health visitors to whom I have just referred have been over the services they use. The plans will give parents recruited. the right to express a preference for any state-funded A number of noble Lords raised the issue of reading school, including academies, or college. There will be a difficulties. My noble friend Lady Walmsley mentioned requirement that local authorities publish a local offer the phonic screening check, the first of which was of services for disabled children and young people, carried out earlier this month. It will help to identify and those with special educational needs. We will also pupils who have not met the expected standard in introduce statutory protections comparable to those phonic decoding, and schools will then be expected to currently associated with a statement of SEN for 16 to provide appropriate support to help them make good 25 year-olds in further education, with access to routes progress and master these essential early reading skills. of appeal. I think it was alluded to this afternoon that it was the In order to prepare the ground for the new system, Rose review that underlined the benefits of systematic as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, synthetic phonics for teaching those with dyslexia. said, we have set up 20 pathfinders, covering 31 local There is also some evidence that schools are getting authority areas and their health service partners. These better at identifying children with autism. The department pathfinders are testing out many of the proposals set has been collecting data on the number of children out in the Green Paper, such as education, health and with different types of SEN who either have statements care plans and the local offer. I listened to the points or are on school action plus. The statistics show that, made by the noble Baroness about some of the practical in 2004, 31,000 pupils were identified as having an concerns, and I agree that my department will need to autistic spectrum disorder. This had risen to 61,500 in reflect on them and take them into account as the 2011, which seems to suggest that there is a greater proposals are taken forward. We will publish an interim recognition of autism in the education system. However, report later in the autumn, and we will work with a there is still a need to recognise and diagnose autism range of different services to take the lessons on earlier, and we certainly expect local areas to take board. account of guidelines that are available, such as the We are also keen to make progress with the Bill in National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence’s order to get the new system in place. We plan to guidelines on the identification and diagnosis of autism. publish draft SEN clauses for the proposed children I will say a few words about early language, an issue and families Bill in the first week of September. A raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. In March, period of consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny will the Government announced an early language follow before the Bill is introduced to Parliament in development programme to train practitioners to help spring 2013. That will provide an opportunity to pick children up to five years old, particularly those with up on some of these practical issues. Subject to the SEN, by focusing on improving communication and approval of Parliament, we hope that the Bill will gain language skills. The programme will help the most Royal Assent in spring 2014. disadvantaged children with a special focus on the One of the recurring themes this afternoon has under-threes, who are at risk of language delay. The been the importance of early identification. Here we new early years foundation stage framework, which are taking action on a number of fronts. We are, for my honourable friend Sarah Teather has been working example, recruiting and training an additional 4,200 on and which is to be introduced in September this health visitors by 2015, and identifying whether a year, will also make a number of improvements. There 405 Education and Training[28 JUNE 2012] Education and Training 406 will be a stronger emphasis on the three prime areas English and mathematics than other SEND children most essential for children’s healthy development: across the country. In a significant number of schools communication and language; physical development; involved in the pilot, they even exceeded the progress and personal, social and emotional development. We of non-SEND children nationally. An independent have commissioned the Early Language Consortium evaluation carried out by the University of Manchester to deliver a three-year early language training programme showed that pupil attendance was significantly improved, to train practitioners to identify language development with an average increase in attendance of just over problems and then work with children and families. 10%. It also showed significant improvements in behaviour, That takes me to the importance of teachers and including lower levels of bullying—one of the issues training, which is one of the recurring issues. My that we have talked about—stronger relationships between noble friend Lord Storey spoke in a very practical way schools and parents, and a greater awareness of and about some of the steps that a school takes in dealing focus on special educational needs. We are now spending with these issues, which I found helpful, as opposed to £14 million to roll that programme out across the some of the more abstract ways in which the issue is country so that more children can benefit. More than explained to me in the department sometimes. We are 900 schools have joined the programme since last taking action in a number of ways to improve teachers’ September and the number is on course to be 1,500 by skills in identifying and addressing the special educational the end of this year. needs of children and young people. The new standards We also talked about successful transition into for qualified-teacher status include a specific focus on adulthood—an issue referred toin particular by my meeting the needs of children with special educational noble friend Lord Clement-Jones. We are running a needs or those who are disabled, which was a question trial of supported internships in 15 further education raised by my noble friend Lady Walmsley. We have colleges this autumn. We are providing funding over a launched a scholarship scheme for teachers to improve couple of years to 25 colleges to test different models and extend their knowledge and expertise when working of post-16 work experience, and 13 of the colleges with disabled pupils and those with SEN, including involved in the trial will be testing models for young their knowledge in specific impairments. That scheme people with learning difficulties. has already awarded funding to around 400 teachers to undertake specialist postgraduate qualifications. We are consulting on a more flexible approach to My noble friend Lady Browning and others also study programmes for all 16 to 19 year-olds, which we spoke about the importance of teaching assistants think will lead to that whole age group getting more having the necessary skills, so we have launched a valuable skills and qualifications. We are also providing similar scholarship scheme for the most able support funding to encourage greater partnership working between staff working with disabled pupils and those with clusters of independent specialist colleges, FE colleges SEN. That should enable support staff to gain degree-level and schools so that they work together to improve qualifications to build their skills and expertise, including local provision for young people with learning difficulties in specific issues such as dyslexia. and disabilities and share expertise and delivery arrangements. We are going to increase the number of The Teaching Agency has developed advanced-level clusters further this year. materials on autism, dyslexia, speech, language and communication difficulties, and behavioural, emotional Furthermore, the Learning and Skills Improvement and social difficulties. We have increased the number Service and the National Institute of Adult Continuing of special school placements available for initial teacher Education have launched specialist qualifications for training to up to 900 in 2011-12. We have provided college teachers working with disabled young people. funding for up to 9,000 school SENCOs to complete We think that that will improve the expertise in the FE the mandatory higher-level SENCO award, and we workforce. are also funding a further 1,000 SENCOs in 2012-13. I am pleased to say that more young people with Reference was made to the role of the voluntary learning difficulties are completing apprenticeships. In sector, and we are supporting that sector as well in 2010-11 more than 17,000 people with a learning helping teachers and schools. Through the voluntary difficulty or disability successfully completed an and community sector grant programme we have funded apprenticeship, and that figure has increased in each the Dyslexia-SpLD Trust, providing £1.4 million over of the past five years. The number of apprentices two years, to raise awareness and support parents. We declaring that they are dyslexic more than doubled also provided a grant to Dyslexia Action, with the between 2005 and 2010. My noble friend Lord Addington RNIB, to make more than 650 core texts available in a will not be surprised to hear that the success rates for digital format for dyslexic pupils. apprentices with dyslexia are similar to those of their In addition, we are funding the Autism Education peers. Almost 70% of apprentices declaring dyslexia Trust to develop national standards for those working succeed at their apprenticeship compared with 75% of with autistic children, as well as training at universal, those who do not report a learning difficulty. enhanced and specialist levels, and delivering that to at The Government will issue an action plan later this least 5,000 staff across the country. summer with a number of measures to increase the Perhaps I may say a few words about the Achievement accessibility of apprenticeships for young people with for All programme, which coaches and supports schools learning difficulties and disabilities. That will be aimed in improving the attainment of their pupils with special at colleges and training providers. I know that my educational needs. We know that schools using the noble friend Lord Addington has been discussing that programme saw children make greater progress in with colleagues of mine. He has offered to help, I 407 Education and Training[LORDS] Dementia 408

[LORD HILL OF OAREFORD] 4.48 pm think, with the production of that guidance. We are Lord Addington: My Lords, in the few moments grateful for that offer and I am sure that will be remaining to me in this debate, I would like to thank extremely helpful. all those who have spoken. I could speak again at The noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, considerable length, but I do not think that would be raised the question about exam adjustments. There is wise. The only thing I would say is something that we a system of exam adjustments in place; schools and used to hear from the previous Government when we colleges can put arrangements in place to provide were in opposition. They used to state, “We have done things like extra time, supervised rest breaks or assisted more”—I think it was in the field of disability—“than technologies. any other Government before us”. My response was, The Youth Contract, which was mentioned by my “Yes, you have, and so you damn well should have”. noble friend Lady Walmsley, should support more That is also true of this Government now, in this field. than 55,000 16 and 17 year-olds over the next three years. If we can leave it, having said that we have made It will certainly benefit those with learning difficulties things a little better than they were before, and hopefully and disabilities because they are disproportionately a lot better, we will have succeeded. However, we are represented in this group of young people who are not standing on the shoulders of what has gone before, in education, employment or learning. much of which was good, despite the mistakes, and I The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, raised the important hope that we can carry on in that vein. This discussion point about accountability. The new exclusions process, has demonstrated a degree of consensus that is actually to be introduced in September, will provide additional very helpful. safeguards for pupils with SEN. In particular, there will need to be an SEN expert to provide advice to the Motion agreed. independent review panel. On the point about exclusions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, and my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, I agree that the statistics Dementia clearly show that the groups we are discussing Question for Short Debate are disproportionately affected by exclusions. The Government’s trials, based on an approach pioneered in Cambridgeshire to try to give schools a far greater 4.50 pm incentive to tackle the problem at source rather than Tabled By Lord Touhig excluding pupils and leaving it to other people to sort out, are going forward. They had great results in To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Cambridgeshire. Trials are taking place now in 11 they are taking to provide support for people with local authorities and 300 volunteer schools, and I dementia. hope that that will be part of the solution to tackling exclusion. Lord Touhig: My Lords, a debate on dementia is The issue of careers was raised by the noble Baroness, long overdue. Indeed, the last time your Lordships’ Lady Jones of Whitchurch; I know that that is a House debated dementia was on 25 June 2009. concern of hers. We have been clear in the guidance Today there are 800,000 people with dementia in that, for the kinds of group that we have been discussing, Great Britain, and two-thirds of them are women. those with learning difficulties and other disadvantaged Currently only 43 per cent of people with dementia groups the expectation is that schools and colleges have a formal diagnosis, yet we all know that diagnosis should provide face-to-face guidance. is the key to accessing information, treatment and That has been a slight canter across the terrain, and support services. There will be more than 1 million I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I have not picked people with dementia by 2021 in this country. This up on everything. If there are some specific points, I year alone it will cost us £23 billion. Currently there will follow them up. However, I hope that what I have are 600,000 family carers of people with dementia. said conveys the range of activity that is under way While significant resources are being spent on and the extent of the Government’s aspirations. As my dementia, they are often being spent inefficiently and noble friend Lord Storey and others reminded us, it is in ways that do not meet the needs or aspirations easy to forget sometimes just how far we have come. of the people with dementia and their families. Improving Many people have made that possible over a long services for people with dementia could therefore period of time, and there is good work to build on. boost outcomes and also prove cost effective for the The fundamental reforms to the system proposed taxpayer. Over a million people living with dementia by my honourable friend Sarah Teather is ambitious, in the United Kingdom by 2021 will present a major but rightly so. I am glad that there is broad support challenge as people with dementia are significant users across the House for those reforms, and I hope that of both health and social care services, and there they will provide the platform for the further exposition remains an unacceptable variation across the country of some of these issues to which the noble Lord, Lord in the quality of services and support. Too often, Touhig, referred. I hope also that noble Lords will people with dementia are unable to access the support accept that, in the important area of helping those they need and are frequently failed by the current with hidden disabilities, this Government have been system. Urgent reform of the social care system is making progress, and I hope that I have shown that we needed, along with a real priority attached to dementia, are certainly committed to making more. if we are to improve lives. 409 Dementia[28 JUNE 2012] Dementia 410

As a former member of the Public Accounts people cannot get essential care, while some in a Committee in the other place, I well remember the neighbouring authority can. A patchwork of complex 2007 report by the National Audit Office which found rules and assessments makes claiming what people are that the health and social care response to dementia entitled to difficult and off-putting. The highest spending was inadequate and that spending on dementia, while local authority, Tower Hamlets, spends five times more significant, was poorly used. The Alzheimer’s Society than Cornwall, the lowest spending authority. 2009 report, Counting the Cost, showed that there was People have a limited say over the care they receive. an unacceptable variation in the care of people with Choice and control is the experience of too few people. dementia in the hospital service. It found that people Out of two million older people in England with with dementia were staying in hospital on average a care-related needs, 800,000 receive no formal support week longer than other people admitted for the same at all. The lack of support early in the condition leads reason. A report for the Department of Health by to a substantial pressure on long-term care and acute Professor Banerjee in 2009 estimated that 180,000 sectors. Some 10% of the respondents to the survey people with dementia were being prescribed anti-psychotic Support. Stay. Save. reported that the person with drugs but that two-thirds of the prescriptions were dementia was admitted earlier than expected into long- inappropriate. Anti-psychotics rob people with dementia term care because of inadequate support in the community of their quality of life and lead to 1,800 deaths a year. early on. A similar proportion reported that the person In January 2010, the National Audit Office’s interim with dementia was admitted to hospital when it could report on dementia found that progress on implementing have been avoided because there was lack of early the national dementia strategy in England had been support in the community. This is despite evidence patchy and had got off to a slow start. The Alzheimer’s that early intervention is both cost-effective and is Society’s 2011 report, Support. Stay. Save., found that what people with dementia and their carers want. The half of people with dementia were not getting the care paid for by local authorities is too often provided support they need. to people who have significant need when evidence Last March, the Prime Minister’s challenge on shows that investing in care earlier would reduce demands dementia laid out further key commitments on research, on the National Health Service. The Alzheimer’s Society healthcare and dementia-friendly communities. The has been campaigning for many years for a change in Queen’s Speech in May outlined the Government’s the way we pay for care. The forthcoming social care plans to introduce a draft Care and Support Bill for and support White Paper is an historic opportunity to England. We are told that the Bill will set out how the overhaul our care and support system. Government will modernise care and support law to What can we do to make a difference? The Dilnot ensure that local authorities fit their services around commission proposed a fair system where no one the needs, outcomes, experiences and aspirations of would lose more than 30% of their assets. That would the people. We are told that it will build on a personal help. However, without additional government funding, budget agenda, simplify the laws around social care England’s social care system will not be fixed. The and improve the way in which people get information recent Nuffield Trust report identified a number of about their due entitlements. Dementia plans and funding options that could release funds to invest in strategies are in place in Northern Ireland, Wales and the social care system. The Government must begin a Scotland, all of which emphasise the need to improve public debate on where money for care could come awareness, diagnosis and services. from. Money intended for social care must be used for While the vast majority of care for people with care, and not for filling in potholes. At present, each dementia is undertaken by family carers, people with local authority decides which of the four levels of fair dementia frequently use social care services. The current access to care services eligibility criteria they will fund: system does not work for the person receiving care, it low, moderate, substantial or critical. It is profoundly does not work for the person providing the care and it unfair that two people living either side of a local certainly does not work for the taxpayer. The chronic authority boundary—they could be living either side underfunding of social care over many years has driven of a road—could be entitled to significantly different down quality, choice and accessibility. Over the past levels of care. The Government must introduce a four years, the increased demand for social care has national eligibility strategy to improve consistency outstripped the increase in expenditure by 9 per cent, and fairness across the country. Progress has been and the ability of people with dementia to live well is made, but we have a long way to go. increasingly under strain. People with dementia are Just over two years ago I took part in a march. It being unfairly penalised by the existence of what is was a memorial march in memory of people with called the dementia tax. dementia who had died. I walked with a man whose Individuals and families are spending tens of thousands wife had not spoken a word in 18 months. He was her of pounds to access the care they need, while care for carer; he sometimes had respite when his son could people with other medical conditions, such as cancer, take over. His wife was doubly incontinent; they had is free. The Alzheimer Society’s 2008 report, The Dementia no shower or toilet facilities on the ground floor. He Tax, found that people with dementia and their families told me that the only day he was confident that she are willing to make a contribution to the costs of their was kept clean was the day that she went to a day care. However, they need a fairer deal which protects centre, where they had showers, and so forth. He was them against very high costs and which also guarantees battling hard in order to find funds to provide these the quality of care. Where one lives determines the basic facilities on the ground floor of his home. I came level of care received, as councils decide locally at away full of despair after talking to that man. I am what level to start providing support. Across the country, sure that noble Lords must have had similar encounters. 411 Dementia[LORDS] Dementia 412

[LORD TOUHIG] For more than 20 years I have followed the work of When we last considered this subject, in a debate the Dementia Services Development Centre at Stirling introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, in University, both under its previous director and now 2009, she told us that the average age of your Lordships under Professor June Andrews. It has contributed was 68 and that one third of us will die with dementia. more than any other organisation to the understanding That brings it home that every one of us must know or of dementia as an illness, to understanding the needs will have an encounter with someone who has dementia. of carers, and to enabling academics and healthcare We really must do something about it. We have a duty professionals to move forward. Recently, Professor to those in our society who are desperately locked Andrews gave a talk about design. She and her colleagues away almost as prisoners of illnesses of the mind. It is had been involved in a community pilot study in the down to those of us who can still articulate and make Forth Valley. People from various disciplines worked the case to ensure that the Government and we as a for a year to see how, within their existing resources, society do something to improve the quality of life for they could manage things differently. I was pleased to people with dementia. see that not just the health service but organisations like the police, libraries, churches and the general 5pm public felt more confident in their ability to deal and interact with people who have dementia. We are getting Baroness Barker: My Lords, I thank the noble close to the point where a diagnosis of dementia is not Lord, Lord Touhig, for enabling us to hold this debate going to lead to older people and their carers automatically and for his eloquent and moving introduction. I confess being cut off from the life they enjoyed previously and that I am a veteran of pretty much every one of our which, for many years to come, may still have some debates in this House over the past 10 years. We have meaning for them. had dementia strategies and dementia plans, and I congratulate the previous Government on their work Professor Andrews talked about the issue of design, on those important documents, which have moved us and particularly design in people’s homes. I am very forward. Dementia is something that affected my family pleased that some of the people involved in the Prime until last December, when my mum died having, in her Minister’s challenge are designers and private companies, words, “kind of lost the place a little bit”. That was looking at how they can respond in practical ways to her euphemistic way of talking about dementia. It is a the challenge of dementia. Professor Andrews also subject that for the past 20 years I have followed with a talked about the need to develop things like glass-fronted great deal of interest because, as noble Lords know, I fridges so that people know that they have food. I look work with older people. forward to the time when homes have glass-fronted I want to sound a somewhat more hopeful note freezers because I stopped counting the times that I than did the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, and I do so had to throw away a freezer’s worth of food because because two or three things have happened that give my mum forgot about it and it went bad. Design, cause for optimism. Building on the work of people lighting and so on in people’s homes can make a like the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, and the tremendous difference to their ability to remember. all-party parliamentary group, as well as on important I want to focus on one particular area that has not reports from Alzheimer’s bodies, the Prime Minister’s been mentioned so far. Many older people with dementia Challenge on Dementia and the updated dementia also have other disabilities. If you are a carer supporting strategy are extremely good documents because they somebody and you try to find out about adaptations, move us forward. Not only are they forward-looking, they will be designed for a particular physical disability they are quite detailed. The strategy talks not just in and not for someone who has a physical disability and broad terms about the need for more research and also dementia. In this hopeful time, designers could support, but it begins to draw down different areas in look at the potential to design appliances for the home order to achieve a series of things which, over the next for people who have the multiple disabilities that most five years, will bring about real and actual change in older people will develop. both communities and the health service. They will be of benefit to people who have dementia and their One particular area we should focus on is carers. telecommunications. It is great that there is enormous change going on in the world of telecommunications The Prime Minister’s Challenge on Dementia is and that, for example, phones can now be used by based on three things: raising awareness and people with hearing disabilities who could not use one understanding, early diagnosis and support, and before. Yet there is absolutely no point in having a enabling people to live well. There is a commitment to phone that has wonderful functionality if you cannot increase research funding to the unprecedented level learn to use it. Professor Andrews made an important of £66 million, some of which is to be spent in social point about the ability of people to design things in care, which is extremely helpful. Some of the money future that will have new functionality but will look will be spent on redesigning services in the health like the objects that people with dementia remember— service, but some will also go to the Medical Research retro-designing things so that people can continue to Council for further research into brain scanning. We use them. are beginning to move away from broad strategies into more targeted and focused areas. I was pleased to see I am also pleased that in the dementia challenge we that resources are to be devoted to developing dementia- are finally recognising that in future all health and friendly communities. That is not jargon. People are social care professionals, whatever their discipline, will starting to work towards a definition of what that is deal with people who have dementia. That will include all about. dentists, pharmacists and others. We are now moving 413 Dementia[28 JUNE 2012] Dementia 414 to a point where basic pre-qualification training for all by what was happening to her. My sister and I, with health and social care professionals has to include six young children between us, could not care for her dementia, whatever the area of specialism. in our homes, so we looked for a care home for her, but In the short time available, I will raise one more we could not find anywhere that we felt would provide point. Last December, the Alzheimer’s Society produced anything like a real home for her. So we searched for a report, Short Changed, about the experiences of carers to look after her in her own home. We were older people with dementia, and their carers, with untypically fortunate enough to be able to do that, and banking and financial services. Older people with dementia we went through one carer a week for six months, as are particularly vulnerable to financial abuse. We have we could find nobody able and willing to take on the known that for years. We knew it 15 years ago when complex task of caring for someone suffering from the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, set up Action dementia. Finally, when we had really begun to despair, on Elder Abuse. It is now more than five years since through some good luck, we found a caring woman the passage of the Mental Capacity Act. At that time, who looked after my mother wonderfully for the last the Office of Fair Trading and the British Bankers’ four years of her life and helped make those years, for Association produced guidelines about tightening up the most part, happy and peaceful. procedures in relation to people who lack mental Finding a carer was not the end of the problems capacity, but we still have problems. Anybody who that we faced. As my mother’s general state of health listens to “Money Box” will regularly hear reports of declined, she spent more and more time in hospital, irresponsible lending to people with dementia. and at one point in 1997, she was having to be fed I make one particular suggestion: will the Government, through a tube. The consultant then insisted that she with the Office of Fair Trading and the British Bankers’ no longer had any quality of life and that the tube Association, now do some further work on banking should be removed and she should be allowed to die. services for people who lack capacity? Will that work My sister and I disagreed and the consultant then draw a difference between people who have learning tried to bully us—and I use that verb advisedly—into disabilities, people who have mental health problems following his advice, telling us that we were being which may be episodic and people who have dementia? selfish and that the bed was needed for a patient who All three have different issues but at the moment the would benefit from it more. The pressure he exerted on banks treat them all the same. That is causing a a daily basis was intense and caused us great anxiety problem, not least for carers of people who have and distress, but we still resisted and, in the end, we dementia, who are worried and trying desperately to were able to find a hospital that took a different enable their relatives to keep control of their finances approach and we moved our mother there. Through for as long as they can. They want a backstop for its loving care, my mother recovered, the tube was when the time comes when their loved ones can no removed without her dying as a result and she was longer manage. eventually discharged and went home where she lived for a further nine months, mostly happy and peaceful. Dementia is a terrible thing, and it is going to happen to more and more people as we live longer. It I have told this personal story at some length because is going to become a part of life for more of us. I am it illustrates the state of dementia care at that time in not a Pollyanna, but having read the dementia strategy that outer London suburb and is typical of the experience and the Prime Minister’s Challenge on Dementia,I of so many people, many of whom are unfortunately think we now have reason to be much more hopeful unable to care for their relatives in the way that we than we have ever been that we will be able to see were able to care for our mother. It typifies the experience people living well with this terrible disease. that so many people living with dementia and their carers went through at that time. There was no empathy with the patient, no support for relatives and carers 5.10 pm and a pervasive inadequacy of care. Lord Wills: My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Twenty years ago, I assumed that was the way Lord Touhig for securing this debate. My mother lived things were and had to be, but in 1997 I was elected as with dementia for many years and in the early stages the MP for North Swindon and I found that in Swindon, suffered greatly from it. What she went through in the thanks to the imaginative work of Dr Roger Bullock early 1990s was depressingly instructive about the state and his colleagues, dementia care was immeasurably of dementia care at that time in the London suburb better than that received by my mother. There was where she lived. My mother was diagnosed in 1993, respect and dignity in the way care was delivered, there but that diagnosis took place only after my sister and I was an underpinning belief that those suffering from ignored the advice of our mother’s GP, who said there dementia could still enjoy a good quality of life, and was no point in a diagnosis as nothing could be done there was dedication to providing therapies to that for our mother if her increasing memory loss and end, all of which had been notably absent from the confusion turned out to be the result of dementia. When care on offer to my mother. the diagnosis was confirmed and we asked the GP for I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, that help, the GP who had cared for my mother and looked over the past 10 years, the practice in Swindon has after our family for 25 years, she said that she was very become more typical and the neglect and indifference sorry but there was nothing that could be done medically experienced by my mother less so. There has been real and she could not help my mother any further. progress and there is better understanding of the No support was offered to us by the local NHS or disease. The national dementia strategy launched by the local authority. We were on our own while my the previous Government in 2009 was a landmark, mother was rapidly deteriorating, bewildered and panicked and I hope there are no members of the medical 415 Dementia[LORDS] Dementia 416

[LORD WILLS] across the country quickly and easily. So in 2002 and profession today who still believe that those suffering 2003 I worked intensively with all the relevant local from dementia cannot enjoy a reasonable quality of agencies, in the NHS and the local authority and with life. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, that local carers, to develop new and better mechanisms. the Prime Minister’s Challenge on Dementia, which The innovative proposal that emerged from that process was published three months ago, is most welcome. It offered choices for different care packages to sufferers sets out some of the progress that has been made and and carers. It offered integrated care and a unique role there is a commendable determination to go, as the for the voluntary sector, all of which successive Prime Minister puts it, further and faster. I am concerned, Governments and professional bodies and the All-Party however, about the obstacles that remain in the way of Parliamentary Group on Dementia have said are such progress. It is depressing, for example, that the important. Alzheimer’s Society, which does such invaluable work This proposal required no extra funding. That meant, in this area and for whose support I shall always be however, that local managers would be required to be grateful, found in 2009 that there was an unacceptable highly efficient in their management of resources and variation in the care of people with dementia on they were concerned that this new challenge might hospital wards, as my noble friend Lord Touhig has affect their ability to meet all the targets that the just outlined. There are still no national eligibility Department of Health then required them to meet. So criteria for access to care and there should be. As my they needed some assurance that, if they were to noble friend has pointed out, the difference between embark on this enterprising initiative, they would not the highest spending local authority at Tower Hamlets be penalised by the Department of Health for missing is five times that of the lowest spending one in Cornwall. any other targets as a result. This sort of variation is neither fair nor justifiable. Moreover, as my noble friend Lord Touhig has This was a difficult issue, especially as the then said, the most pressing need is to sort out adequate Government were so driven by targets. As this was an funding for social care. As the population ages, the important initiative, however, formulated not by an number of people suffering from dementia increases. MP but by outstanding frontline professionals and There are 800,000 today and that is forecast to rise by patients and carers, I would have expected at least a 25 per cent in the next 10 years alone. There are at dialogue about it. I wrote several letters to two successive least 600,000 carers today and that number is almost Health Secretaries and I never received even the courtesy certainly an underestimate. These figures are never of a substantive reply. It was not that the idea was accurate and they are almost certainly a significant rejected; Ministers refused even to discuss it. Even underestimate. That number is bound to rise, too. their Special Advisers saw no point in discussing it. Because they receive too little support, people with I should say that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, an dementia are admitted earlier than they need to be adornment to your Lordships’ House, then in the into long-term care and into hospital when adequate Prime Minister’s Policy Unit, was enthusiastically support in the community might have rendered that supportive but sadly that counted for nothing in the unnecessary. This is a wasteful, inefficient and above face of an indifference from the Department of Health all unfair system. which stemmed, as far as I have been able to work out, There is also the continuing refusal of the Government from the fact that this idea did not originate in the to extend the protections of the Human Rights Act to Department of Health. all those in care homes. It is perhaps those with I understand that the Government’s reforms will dementia who are most in need of such protections relax the sort of control from the centre that stifled the and the application of those fundamental human rights Swindon initiative, but maximising the benefits of principles of dignity and respect. We have debated this self-directed support of the sort that that initiative issue recently in your Lordships’ House and the Minister envisaged requires an adequate infrastructure of was adamant in his refusal even to contemplate the information and services to support patients and carers extension of such protections. I still hope he may in their choices. Ministers say that they want personal think again, if not today, at some point in the not-too- budgets to be the norm by 2013. That could produce distant future. some of the same outcomes that the Swindon initiative Finally, I want to address the issue of innovation, envisaged and which research by the Mental Health which is so important in all issues to do with health Foundation has shown are valued by carers and users. care but particularly so in this area of health and However, these desirable outcomes can be secured social care where our understanding of this disease is only if there is adequate infrastructure in place. growing exponentially. We have to listen to and learn At a time when so much control is being passed from the experience of those who are living with it and from the centre to local agencies, and local authority their carers. I pay tribute to the Department of Health and NHS budgets are under such pressure, is the because I think it is taking some worthwhile initiatives Minister confident that such infrastructure will be to foster such innovation, but significant problems adequate everywhere across the country—not just in remain. For innovation to flourish, two things are the places of excellence, such as Swindon, but everywhere? required: first, empowerment of the frontline; and, Can he be confident that there will not be the same secondly, the ability to roll out best practice so that unfair, uneven provision from area to area that has everywhere in the country can benefit from it. characterised dementia care in the past and about Ten years ago I was so impressed by the quality of which my noble friend Lord Touhig spoke so eloquently? dementia care I found in Swindon that I wanted to It is increasingly accepted that, nationally, dementia help develop it into a model that could be replicated care has been unacceptably neglected for far too long 417 Dementia[28 JUNE 2012] Dementia 418 and that, locally, provision has been far too uneven. I the person with dementia who goes in with a broken hope the Minister can demonstrate real commitment arm of a fractured femur but also for all the other to going, in the Prime Minister’s words, “further and patients who cannot sleep, rest or get better. It is faster”, not simply by saying it—which I am sure he appalling. To be blunt, we know that 20% of our acute will, with his characteristic grace and eloquence—but hospitals now need converting into primary-care-led by demonstrating that in future there will be the hospitals where the sort of treatment from which quality of care that all those with dementia and all people with dementia and others with chronic diseases those caring for them deserve, and that it will be could benefit is introduced. It is quite difficult to available everywhere in the country. persuade Members of the other place that they will be re-elected if they join forces in changing the hospitals 5.21 pm in their local constituencies. However, that is what needs to be done if we are to meet the need of the Baroness Greengross: My Lords, I start with three fast-growing numbers of people who suffer from one lots of congratulations. First, I congratulate the noble of the dementias. Lord, Lord Touhig, on securing this debate, which is of the utmost importance, and on speaking so eloquently, We also know that early diagnosis is essential. As as did the other noble Lords who have spoken. Secondly, the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said, there are things I congratulate the previous Government on introducing that can be done. There is some hope now. Early the dementia strategy and on the research summit, interventions into the neural networks can achieve which I was privileged to co-chair. At the summit, change. It is not far off that we will actually be able to important plans were laid, which could lead to a lot of do something about dementia, not just helping people change. Thirdly, I congratulate the Prime Minister. I to live better but moving towards a cure. We must all was in the hall when he spoke and heard his speech. I get together to get the research under way and properly have never heard him speak as well as he did on the funded, globally as well as nationally, and all benefit dementia challenge. He is obviously very committed from it. It is essential that early intervention in neural to this, as am I—I am passionate about it—and it was networks is pursued. wonderful to hear what he said. Much has been said about the need for better What has changed is that we are having a debate on hospital care for people who do go into hospital, and dementia when people are not afraid to mention it. It about better care in the community, in which I have is, as the Prime Minister said, as things were with been very much involved, looking at the human rights cancer a long time ago and later were with AIDS. We of people who need care and support in their own can now talk about dementia. People know that it is home. I will not joint the debate with the Minister absolutely essential to get things going and changing about where human rights are applied, but I will say with regard to dementia. We must implement the that human rights are really important as a training action. The Government are committed to what the tool, where you start with the person and look at previous Government were committed to. We have respect, dignity, the right to have some social interaction all-party agreement that this is of the utmost urgency. with others and the right to family life. That means We must get this right now. that you do not separate husband and wife if they go What we face is largely due to recent medical success. into a care home. The care worker has to spend more We are now able to control or get rid of many of the than 15 minutes with the patient, because you cannot acute illnesses that used to take people away from us, clean them up, give them a meal, arrange their day, get particularly cancer, heart disease and so on. We have things ready, look after them a litte and have a chat in had wonderful success but must now face, in effect, an 15 minutes. We have to change the rules and standards enormous crisis, which is mounting not just in this of care in people’s homes. If we look at those issues as country but across the world. It is on a par with an infringement of human rights, it helps us to train climate change and it is of the utmost urgency that we people to get it right. I do not blame the providers of get this right. We have to get more money into research care in people’s homes. Many of them are struggling and care, we must have staff who can do the caring, to make ends meet, too. We need a better system of and families must be helped with the caring that they funding for that. We need local authorities to come need to do. There is an enormous amount that needs together, as some are now doing, so that those people to be done. The fear of people in this country is now who have to do everything in 15 minutes and then not nearly as much about cancer as it is about dementia. travel without being compensated for the travel or As the noble Lord said, one in three of us will die from time of travel will not have to do so. At least several it and the costs are immense. If we get things right, we boroughs or local authorities are getting together to can reduce those costs. minimise the risk of that happening. So things can be The all-party group has 70 Members from both done which do not cost a great deal. Houses and the wonderful thing is that they come to We have to get cost-effective care. We have to look the meetings. I chair three other all-party groups and at the standards of care and the training of staff. We am a member of others. People do not come—they are also have to look at the status of staff. Care work, too busy doing other things—but the group on dementia work with people in their own homes or care homes, is is very well attended. We have had some marvellous low status and very low paid. Why would they continue results from the inquiries that we have carried out on to do that? They are very committed or they would some of the subjects mentioned by the noble Baroness, not have got into it in the first place. In fact, if you go Lady Barker, such as early diagnosis, anti-psychotic and work on the Tesco cash till, you get shares in the drugs and staying too long in hospital if you have company, you have mates to talk to, you have regular dementia. That last is totally inappropriate, both for hours and, when you go home, you know that your 419 Dementia[LORDS] Dementia 420

[BARONESS GREENGROSS] have been admitted. They are, therefore, being nursed work is finished. That does not happen if you are and treated by non-specialised staff who may have caring for people with dementia. It does not happen if little or no experience of the condition and of whom it you are caring for vulnerable people anywhere. This is is unfair to ask the skills and competences which such why our staff leave and take up other jobs—they are patients need. under pressure. We really must get the care regime It may be that GPs are reluctant to diagnose dementia right. because, as the noble Lord, Lord Wills, has reminded Moreover, we must make sure that “integration” us, they believe there is no cure or because they do not really means something, because if we do not join up want to depress either the patient or his or her relatives. our services and include housing and care, both health However, without proper diagnosis, there is no hope at and social care—and we have an opportunity to do all of putting patients and their families in touch with it—and if we do not get it right, we will be letting the services they badly need. We should not forget down some of the most vulnerable people in society. either that the number of people with dementia that The role of health and well-being boards and the each individual GP sees during their career is relatively commissioning groups are critical to getting this right. few and we should not expect them, therefore, to be an We can, in fact, do it now. If we also look at annual expert in diagnosis. What we can and should expect is budgets of local authorities and make sure they do not that they are willing to make referrals to experts who continue to be threatened with the loss of their central can make a diagnosis. Talk to the family of any government grant, we can begin to get some preventive dementia sufferer and they will almost invariably tell work introduced locally as well. It is a disgrace that we you a long and distressing tale of how long and how can only look after people when they are in a critical much persistence it took to get a proper diagnosis. condition. If I were a director of adult social services, The third thing is the lack of support. Dementia that is what I would do—we would all do it—and that can be coped with but support services are vital and does not help people to remain fit and well for as long they are in short supply, and I am afraid they are as they possibly can. getting shorter. Caring services are in crisis due to lack We can and must do something about dementia. of funding. Talk to anyone engaged at the sharp end We have all-party agreement on the urgency of this, and the story is the same. Fewer and fewer older and on the need for change in our attitudes and in our people, including those with dementia, qualify for services, and in the integration of care for those with a local authority support, and many services provided terminal disease, which does not get treated as a whole by the community and voluntary sectors are disappearing. at the moment. If we do not get agreement and act Those services especially under threat or gone already now, we cannot call ourselves a reasonably compassionate include those aimed at preventing those with low-level society. needs from reaching a crisis situation. Let me tell your Lordships about Raymond, who is 5.31 pm 85 and cares for his wife, Margaret. He says that Baroness Pitkeathley: My Lords, I thank my noble Margaret, friend Lord Touhig for securing this debate and for “has been diagnosed with dementia. My caring changes from day introducing it so passionately. In your Lordships’ House, to day and week to week. You are living on a knife edge—you we often talk about the ageing of society. People are don’t know what the next hour or day will bring…Ihaveanurse living longer—a lot longer—and this is a subject for who comes to get”, rejoicing and a tribute to developments in society and Margaret, health provision. However, as we have heard, one of “up at 7.30 in the morning and then puts her to bed at 7.30 in the the other consequences of this development is undoubtedly evening”, the increase in dementia. We are all aware of the but her visits are now only 15 minutes long—and figures and I will not repeat them. Although there Raymond has been told that they have to be cut down have been some welcome developments in recent years, to nine minutes in the next year. Margaret, not least as a result of the publication of the dementia strategy and, latterly, the Prime Minister’s commitment, “goes to a care home from 9.30 until 3 in the afternoon”, there is still a very long way to go. Most people with every Wednesday, dementia and their carers are not living well. “which is a great help. They have games and entertainment. I can Although we have made progress, we still have a get down to my jobs while”, lack of awareness. Dementia is not something we Margaret is away.It used to be Wednesday and Thursday, really want to discuss, still less plan for within our but it has been cut down to one day a week. He goes families. I always remember when I was leading the on to say: carers’ movement that we managed to get a dementia “Caring is very tiring. I try to cope to the best of my ability but storyline placed in one of the leading soap operas. I find I can’t take it in my stride. Life is very stressful, especially However, it did not last long because the issue of the practical work. I prepare meals and do the housework … I incontinence might have had to be faced and the pay someone to sit in with”, producers felt that the viewers did not want to know Margaret, once a week, about having to wash soiled sheets. “while I go out … I go to a carers’ meeting on a Friday. It’s like There are also great difficulties in diagnosis. Let us opening another door. I can get back to normal. The tension goes not forget that up to 40% of acute hospital beds are away and my head clears. We talk among ourselves and there is a occupied by dementia patients, but of that number as pleasant atmosphere. We all have a tale to tell. I find out how many as 80% have their condition diagnosed after they other carers overcome their problems. It’s an escape valve. You 421 Dementia[28 JUNE 2012] Dementia 422 are with your own kind—people who know what you are experiencing. Raymond has just once a week that enables him to Without the day centre and the carers’ group I couldn’t manage keep going? We heard rumours at one point from one … I don’t know what I would do”. of the Ministers that the Government were planning Although Raymond is 85, he does not want to give to enable GPs to prescribe respite care for carers. Is up caring for his wife. However, unless he has what he there any truth in that? On the subject of general calls his escape valve, what will happen to him? I have practitioners, how in the new structure of the NHS do to tell your Lordships that the day centre provision is the Government plan to monitor the performance of under threat and the carers’ group, which was set up GPs with regard to carers, since they are so important by a local authority worker, is now run by carer volunteers. for them as a first port of call? The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, reminded us how important it is to support the families who provide the 5.40 pm bulk of care for dementia sufferers. As I often remind Baroness Wheeler: My Lords, this has been a your Lordships, they are saving the nation £119 billion comprehensive and authoritative debate on one of the a year, so it is in all our economic interests to keep major health and care challenges facing us today: them in a caring role. But it is also important for the namely, how we provide treatment, care and support future because we will need many more carers. If they for people suffering from dementia and ensure that are not also going to become a drain on our economy their families, carers and the staff in hospitals, care in their old age, we have to support them now and homes and those who come to the patient’s own home enable them to stay in paid work as long as they can. can help them have the best quality of life and care. As The recent report published for Carers Week, In Sickness one would expect, many of the key concerns and and in Health, tells a very distressing story about the questions on improving research, diagnosis, understanding, health of carers as a direct result of their caring services and support have been ably put by noble responsibilities. No fewer than 87% of them said that Lords during the debate. I will not repeat those. I look caring had a negative impact on their mental health forward to the Minister’s response. and 83% on their physical health. Of course, I also pay tribute to my noble friend Carers and the people they care for already pay for Lord Touhig for securing this debate and for his services. If they are not eligible for social services or excellent opening speech, setting out the context, the their income is above a threshold, they have to pay, stark facts, the progress and developments since the which can range from domestic assistants to care national dementia strategy was launched by the Labour workers. Services can be arranged with the local authority Government in 2009, and the challenges that we still or trust, and others through private companies. This is face. Most importantly, I appreciated his reference to often the cause of financial distress for carers. With carers of people with dementia because they are so the introduction of personal independence payments important in the debate—whether they have 24-hour and changes to employment and support allowance, caring responsibility in their homes, are family members this may lead to substantial numbers of people losing supporting a dementia sufferer or are supporting their benefits, which may mean that the person being cared loved ones in residential care. for can no longer purchase the service. That means My noble friend Lady Pitkeathley also spoke that carers will have to find alternative ways in which passionately about carers, as you would expect. Ensuring to pay for a service by dipping into their savings, that the everyday experience of carers is heard in getting into debt or simply going without. debates such as this is vitally important, and the In the current economic climate, there are concerns House is better informed for it. As a trustee of our that an already struggling system is going to be further local carer support group in Elmbridge, Surrey, I hit. Cuts to services will only make matters worse. For know that about 70 per cent of carers we support some carers, the ultimate impact will be giving up locally are caring for somebody with dementia. The caring themselves because their health has deteriorated dementia ranges from people experiencing the early so much that they can no longer do it. That comes at a disturbing signs of the onset of dementia, who, with significant cost, as the person they care for will need to their families, are wondering what the future will hold be admitted to residential care. For others, they are and how they will be able to cope, through to those in storing up serious problems for their future. Who will the severe advance stages, still cared for at home or in be there to provide the care in their place, if carers can residential care, either with respite or permanent care. no longer carry on? Speaking to just a small number of these carers, I have three questions for the Minister, who I know two things are particularly striking—apart from the is very aware of carers’ problems. Indeed, I was most love and dedication that it takes to cope and carry on. grateful to him for attending a carers event that I First, the carer never stops feeling responsible, even hosted last week and for taking time from his very when the husband or relative has had to go into busy schedule to speak to carers and hear their problems. hospital or residential care. Secondly, it is striking how I appreciate that and know that he has always been much better we need to become at understanding the concerned about this issue. Let me put the three questions range of care and support that is needed, and at to him. When will the Government act on the issue of providing flexible community personal support and sustainable funding for social care? The reform of the day and residential care that treats people with dementia law on care is very welcome and I understand that we with dignity and helps them maintain their quality of will hear about that shortly in the White Paper but we life. have to address properly the funding issues. How can I will quote from one carer whose husband with we ensure that there is ongoing support for carers, dementia is in residential care because she could no including giving them a break—the kind of break that longer cope with him at home. She said: 423 Dementia[LORDS] Dementia 424

[BARONESS WHEELER] funding of social care. As all key stakeholders in the “I had him home this weekend, which was nice but he was very voluntary, public and independent provider sectors, as distressed when I took him back this morning because he clearly well as care professionals and service users, have stressed, didn’t want to be there. It makes me feel so guilty and sad, a full package of reforms that address legal, current because when he is with me he is full of smiles and hugs, and I feel I am betraying him by taking him back. He has become unsettled and long-term funding is needed. generally because one of the residents in his wing has severe How can local authorities that are currently having dementia and shouts and swears all day long. It is having a negative effect on my husband and the staff, but when I raise my to cut £1 billion from social care budgets provide concern with the home manager, he makes it clear that there is adequate or improved community care support, not nothing he can do”. just for people with dementia but for people with Why this care manager feels unable to take action other lifelong conditions such as stroke damage or is a complex mix of failing to understand the diabetes, and for their carers and families? I understand spectrum of care that is needed and failing to respect that new figures revealed by the Alzheimer’s Society the individual’s needs and the impact their behaviour and MHP Health Mandate also reveal an alarming has on other people with dementia, as well as on their 12% increase in the number of emergency hospital carers and families. It is also often about poor assessment admissions for people with dementia since 2006. Is of the patient’s needs, lack of resources, inadequate this not evidence that the community services that are training and the low pay of staff. As Carers UK has needed to help people live at home are woefully inadequate stressed, carers often report challenges in finding to meet current or future demand? appropriate services with the necessary expertise to I ask the Minister if he can update the House on provide the right care, environment and support—a when spring will finally arrive and the social care problem faced by my noble friend Lord Wills, as he White Paper will be published. What will it cover? We explained. know it will focus on the reform of social care law, This failure to find adequate care means that it will which is very important, but does he not agree that be more difficult for families to accept practical help making changes to the legal rights and entitlements of or take a respite break, as they do not have confidence elderly and disabled people without dealing with the in the quality and appropriateness of the care. Also, as issue of how the services are to be funded now and in evidence to the Dignity in Care Commission set up by the future will only create more expectation and demand Age UK, the NHS Confederation and the Local that cannot be met? Government Association has shown, poor or neglectful On the question of improving early diagnosis, can care, even for just a few days, can have a devastating the Minister update the House on what progress effect. Locally, I was told of a care home that billed has been made by local NHS organisations in itself as having a “specialist” dementia ward. However, developing plans to improve diagnostic rates, as set the reality of the care provided—or did not provide in out in the Prime Minister’s dementia challenge? The this case—meant that an elderly lady admitted for challenge also made £54 million available through the respite care to give her husband a break deteriorated dementia Commissioning for Quality and Innovation— so badly during her short stay that she was unable to CQUIN—programme to hospitals offering dementia return home because she could no longer get to the risk assessments to all over-75s admitted to their care. toilet on her own or feed herself. She is now in permanent Can the Minister update the House on how many residential care. The respite experience pushed the hospitals have received payments under this scheme husband over the edge and he was no longer able to and how many hospitals have offered such risk assessments cope. to all over-75s? As I always stress, there is of course good-quality care and best practice in day care, assessment centres On the issue of keeping track of how the national and residential homes across the country, and the dementia strategy is being implemented, I understand huge challenge, as usual, is to raise standards in the from the Mental Health Foundation that Andrew homes where there is poor care to their level. I pay Lansley at last year’s Dementia Action Alliance event tribute to key improvement tools such the Age promised that there would be an annual report on UK’s initiative, My Home Life, which promotes quality progress. This would be a really important lever to in care homes for older people. It is an exemplar help drive through improvements. Can the Minister programme that helps staff to optimise the quality of advise us on when the first annual report will be care in their homes and has the active support of the published? Relatives and Residents Association and the national Finally, as regards the White Paper, can I press provider organisations representing care homes across the Minister, when he updates us, to advise us on the UK. whether it will set out a clear timetable for For dementia, the need for more research, early addressing the recommendations of the Dilnot diagnosis and the importance of providing integrated report, as well as a full government commitment to the health and social care for people to improve services cross-party talks on this, and to standing by the Prime are key elements, as noble Lords have stressed. The Minister’s pledge to deal with social care funding in Alzheimer’s Society’s estimate is that two-thirds of this Parliament? As he knows, the Minister has promised people living with dementia live in their own homes, the House that the Government will not shy away and a third live in care homes. The reality, however, as from tackling this issue. I have pressed him on this we on these Benches have repeatedly stressed, is that matter on a number of occasions, and I must say that current inadequacies and failures of the system will his responses have become increasingly expansive as not be addressed without tackling the crisis in the we have gone on. 425 Dementia[28 JUNE 2012] Dementia 426

On 11 June, he assured me that the Government Early identification of those who care for people are, with dementia is crucial so that they can be directed to “absolutely committed to introducing legislation at the earliest the information, advice and support that will help opportunity in this Parliament to establish a sustainable legal them in their caring role. The NHS operating framework framework for adult social care”.—[Official Report, 11/6/12; col. requires the NHS to work more closely than ever 1137-8.] before with local carers’ organisations and councils to That much we of course knew by then but, on agree plans, pool their resources and make sure that 18 June, the Minister assured me that the Government’s, carers get the support and breaks they deserve. “aim has been and remains to legislate in this Parliament to create However, there are other reasons why change is so a fairer, more just and better funding system for social care”.—[Official Report, 18/6/12; col. 1542.] important. The challenging economic context, as noble Lords have emphasised, makes it even more important So today I am hoping that he will be able to go the for new and more efficient models of service delivery. extra mile and commit the Government to producing That is why we have launched an innovation challenge a timetable in the very near future for consultation on prize of £1 million for NHS organisations to develop the Dilnot recommendations, and for implementation ideas for transforming dementia care. Through the of long-term funding proposals in this Parliament. dementia care and support compact, the social care sector is committing to leading initiatives to improve 5.50 pm the quality of care for people with dementia. That includes work to ensure that people with dementia are The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department clear about what they have a right to expect of care of Health (Earl Howe): My Lords, I begin by congratulating services. the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, on securing this debate and thank him for his compelling speech. As all noble The noble Lord, Lord Wills, asked about the funding Lords have emphasised, dementia is one of the most for all this. The Government have already made increased important health and social care issues that we face as funding available to the NHS and many of the aims of a society. The statistics are staggering. The 670,000 the challenge should deliver savings. For example, the people with dementia in England will double over the CQUIN goal of improving the recognition of dementia next 30 years, and the current £19 billion cost will in hospital should lead to people with dementia spending inevitably spiral. less time in hospital, and ensuring that people with dementia are diagnosed early should stop them going Dementia affects not only health and social care into crisis. The Prime Minister’s challenge is about the but all of society, and the speeches today have brought NHS and social care making better use of the resources that dimension graphically to life. We need to be better already available to them. prepared. Dementia is a priority for this Government, and we are working to ensure that it becomes a priority The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, asked about the for every part of our society—communities, banks, eligibility criteria for care. The imminent White Paper supermarkets and transport. All need to become on care and support—I stress that it is imminent—will dementia-aware and dementia-friendly. That is why, set out our plans to transform the care and support on 26 March, the Prime Minister set out the Government’s system for everyone, including people with dementia. challenge on dementia, to go further and faster in The noble Baronesses, Lady Pitkeathley and Lady implementing the national dementia strategy in three Wheeler, asked me for further and better particulars key areas: driving improvements in health and care, on our plans for publishing the White Paper and creating dementia-friendly communities and improving indeed for reforming the funding of social care. The research into dementia. care and support White Paper and the progress report I was grateful to my noble friend Lady Barker for on funding reform for social care will be published what she said about the challenge. We do mean business simultaneously and, I hope, very shortly. I believe that in this important area. Nationally, three champion I can go no further than I did the other day in groups are driving delivery. The first meetings of the responding to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, but I three groups have already taken place and work is well can reaffirm the Government’s intention to legislate under way to make progress on the challenge. The on both funding reform and the reform of the law on champion groups will report their progress in September social care as early as possible in this Parliament. 2012 and again in March 2013. Clearly, following the publication of the White Paper and the draft Bill that will go with it, we will wish to People with dementia, their families and carers hear from all sides of the House and indeed from all have told us what is important to them and what will sectors of the community about the direction of travel help them to live well with dementia. They want to and the detail of our ideas. receive an early diagnosis and timely, good-quality information that will help them to make informed The noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, asked about choices about their care. I listened with dismay to the the role of GPs. As part of the Prime Minister’s story the noble Lord, Lord Wills, told us about his challenge, we are actively working with the royal colleges own mother in that context. They want the treatment to identify how best to improve early diagnosis through and support they receive to be the best for their awareness, education and training at GP level. Early dementia and their life, regardless of whether they are and accurate diagnosis is, as the noble Baroness and cared for at home, in hospital or in a care home. They others emphasised, very important in ensuring that want the care they receive at the end of their life to be people with dementia can access the support and compassionate and appropriate and to support their information that everyone needs when they receive the exercise of choice. dismaying news of this dreadful condition. 427 Dementia[LORDS] Dementia 428

[EARL HOWE] and we are providing additional funding of £400 million My noble friend Lady Barker spoke about adaptations to the NHS between 2011 and 2015 for carers’ for those with multiple disabilities. I agree with what breaks. As we set out in Innovation Health and she said. It is important that designers think about Wealth, published last December, from April 2013 people with dementia when designing products for access to all CQUIN rewards will be dependent on older people. The department provided funding to the commissioning support for carers in line with NICE Design Council to run a project to encourage design and SCIE guidelines. for people with dementia. There were 185 entries, Furthermore, the 2012-13 NHS operating framework which shows that designers take this seriously and that requires the NHS to work more closely than ever the design community is very definitely rising to the before with local carers’ organisations and councils to challenge. agree plans, pool their resources and make sure that The noble Lord, Lord Wills, spoke about the Swindon carers get the support and break that they deserve. I project and innovation. I can tell him that we very very much hope and believe that that will have a much want to see good, innovative practice spread out positive effect on the thousands of carers of people across the NHS and social care. That is why we have with dementia in England. launched the innovation challenge prize for dementia, to which I referred. We are very much looking at Although dementia can be a crushing condition, we innovation as part of the implementation of the Prime must not lose sight of the fact that people do live well Minister’s challenge. Incidentally, the dementia challenge with it. We need a profound shift in culture and is to achieve a dramatic reduction in the proportion of behaviour if we are to reduce the stigma of dementia. people who have undiagnosed dementia, with evidence All too often dementia is ignored, and the work of of a step-change in the diagnosis rate and a strong carers and other professionals goes unrecognised. Business service response. The challenges in this and other and civic organisations are part of the solution. They areas will be open for a minimum of three years, which can help to create dementia-friendly communities where should encourage health communities and organisations people with dementia and their carers can remain and to confirm their intention to apply for a prize. do the things that we all take for granted, such as travelling around and shopping. As so often, my noble The noble Lord, Lord Wills, also referred to human friend Lady Barker was completely right in what she rights. We very much welcomed the publication of the said on this theme. We need to create communities in report of the EHRC inquiry into human rights in which people are not ashamed of or embarrassed by home care for older people. The report found evidence dementia. of mixed practice. While we should be positive about those who deliver good-quality care services—and As we have a few minutes in hand, with the leave of there are many—there is no excuse for bad practice. the House I will continue a little longer. We need to We believe that the report performed a valuable service create communities that show a high level of public by shining a light on the care and support provided in awareness and understanding about dementia, that most private of spaces—people’s own homes. We communities where people with dementia and their cannot tolerate poor quality in any of our care services. carers are encouraged to seek help and where people I completely agreed with what the noble Baroness, know enough about dementia to be able to help Lady Greengross, said about training. Care and support someone with the condition. By 2015, there will be that respects human rights must be the foundation on at least 20 places recognised as working towards which we build to make a reality of our vision of being a dementia-friendly community. Places and better health and well-being and better care for all. We organisations that meet the criteria being developed as will continue to work with the EHRC, the Care Quality part of the Prime Minister’s challenge will be awarded Commission, local authorities and care providers to dementia-friendly status. I can say to my noble friend ensure that poor practice is rooted out. Lady Barker that, as part of the dementia-friendly communities strand of the challenge, we are working The noble Baroness referred, quite rightly, to workforce with banks to ensure that they and their staff understand issues and training. We know that two-thirds of people the needs of people with dementia and that staff are in care homes have dementia, so it is vital that the dementia-aware. workforce is trained in dementia care. Indeed, 10 leading care home and home care providers have already The noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, mentioned signed the dementia care and support compact to an important part of the Prime Minister’s challenge, which I referred, and we aim to have 50 organisations dementia research, spanning basic research through to signed up by September this year. The compact sets living well with dementia and increasing capacity and out the organisation’s commitment to deliver high-quality, capability across the entire research system. It commits relationship-based care and support for people with the National Institute for Health Research, the Medical dementia. I think that that statement of intent gets the Research Council and the Economic and Social Research process off to the right start. Council to increasing funding for research into The noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, rightly dementia from £26.6 million in 2009-10 to an estimated reminded us of the vital contribution that carers £66.3 million in 2014-15. make to society, a theme taken up, very perceptively, Over the next three years, the NIHR will support if I may say so, by the noble Baroness, Lady the four new NIHR biomedical research units for Wheeler. The Government have taken strong dementia, projects resulting from the recent NIHR-themed action to support carers. We set out our priorities call for research on dementia, and additional work in Recognised, Valued and Supported: Next Steps depending on the volume of high-quality applications for the Carers Strategy, published in November 2010, received. In addition to the increase in funding for 429 Dementia[28 JUNE 2012] Dementia 430 dementia, the MRC will spend over £3 million to My question is this: are there any milestones in support the UK brain banks network. This connects place to measure progress in meeting the Prime Minister’s all the UK brain banks for the benefit of donors, challenge and, if so, what are they? researchers and future patients. This money includes £500,000 a year to improve the process for donating Earl Howe: My Lords, if the noble Lord will allow brain tissue by meeting the costs of collection through me, I shall write to him on that. The answer, broadly, is the NHS. The ESRC is making £5 million of additional yes, we want to see progress made by certain steps of funding available to fund research into the prevention time. However, time does not permit me to spell that of dementia and interventions to maximise the quality out now. of life for people with the condition. There are already significant signs of progress up There is much that the Government are doing and and down the country. The Prime Minister’s challenge much more yet to be done. To address the challenges is about mobilising not only the NHS and local authorities of dementia, we need a response not only from the but all the resources that our communities have to NHS but from society as a whole. offer. A great deal of good work is already going on and is beginning to lead to a steady increase in diagnosis Lord Wills: My Lords, as there is a little time—this rates, which is promising. The result of that will, of is not my intervention—I want to place on record how course, be that many more people will get the treatment enormously heartening I found the Minister’s response and care that they need and that their loved ones to the debate. I feel inspired by much of what he said deserve. Long may this continue. and I want to put on record my thanks to him for his response. House adjourned at 6.06 pm.

GC 169 Arrangement of Business[28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 170

I quite accept that there have been bumps and Grand Committee glitches along the road, and no doubt there will continue to be. It is a very big industry with very tight margins. Thursday, 28 June 2012. The Co-op’s net margin before tax is 2.8%. There is not a lot of room there and it is clear that, from time to time, there will be arguments about sums of money Arrangement of Business which we might not think considerable but which to a Announcement supermarket working on narrow margins are indeed considerable. 2pm There is in our body politic a certain distaste for The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Harris competition. We do not have many really competitive of Richmond): My Lords, if there is a Division in the markets in this country—take a look at banking and Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will quite a lot of other industries. Within the political adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and body politic, there is also wariness about competition. resume after 10 minutes. It seems rather distasteful that people should fight so hard for business and to make that business more efficient. What type of behaviour by the supermarkets Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] in breach of the GSCOP, the code of practice which is imposing excessive risk and unexpected cost on suppliers Committee (2nd Day) and leading to the ultimate disadvantage of the public— which is a straight rendering of the Competition 2pm Commission’s position—justifies the imposition of a Relevant documents: 1st Report from the Delegated system of fines? Powers Committee. In our last sitting the noble Lord, Lord Knight, very helpfully cited some examples of things that do Clause 6: Investigations: forms of enforcement not go as well as they should. His most striking example was the matter of delivery schedules. He started with a reference to notice periods, reasonable Amendment 37 notice and the vagaries of supply. This matter is covered in the code of practice to this extent. If you will Moved by Viscount Eccles forgive me, I think that we should take note of what is 37: Clause 6, page 2, line 30, leave out paragraph (c) in the code of practice. In part 1, under “Interpretation”, it states: Viscount Eccles: My Lords, Amendment 37 would “Reasonable Notice means a period of notice, the reasonableness knock out Clause 9, or elements of Clause 9, so I will of which will depend on the circumstances of the individual case, confine myself to speaking to Clause 9, which provides including: for enforcement using financial penalties. The clause is (a) the duration of the Supply Agreement to which the notice very important. It is probably the most important relates, or the frequency with which orders are placed by the debating issue during the progress of the Bill. There is Retailer for relevant Groceries”. a wide range of views within the Committee about the In his presentation the noble Lord, Lord Knight, clause, from my suggestion that it should be taken out said that there were some people with no contract. I altogether to the Government’s position that it should think that that is absurd. I cannot understand why the be discretionary, given the right amount of evidence, representative bodies of the suppliers do not pull for the Secretary of State to introduce financial penalties themselves together and make sure that their members and, on the other hand, that that discretion should be do have supply contracts. If there is anything that a removed and that penalties should start as soon as the trade association could contribute to its membership, Bill is enacted. it would be good advice on how to get a contract that is enforceable. If suppliers are entering into contracts Before Parliament agrees to a regime of fines— that are not enforceable, they had better get up to administrative or quasi-judicial fines—it is incumbent speed. I started taking orders for steel castings when I on us to give it careful thought and have sufficient was 25, and the idea that I would have ever entered evidence. It is a serious matter to give any regulator or into a contract to supply anyone—the British Steel adjudicator the power to impose fines. The clause Corporation, for example, a very powerful body at comes against the background that the industry as a that time—without anything written, is unthinkable. whole—the retail industry and its suppliers—has been enormously successful. If we want evidence of that, The code goes on to state that, we have only to look at the Food and Drink Federation’s “(b) the characteristics of the relevant Groceries including durability, evidence, which says, look how wonderfully successful seasonality”— our members have been and what a fantastic contribution we are back to lettuce— they are making to the economy. I am sure that that is “and external factors affecting their production; (c) the value of right. As the Competition Commission stated, the any relevant order relative to the turnover of the Supplier in general public have benefited hugely from the growth question; and (d) the overall impact of the information given in of the supermarkets, because of not only price but the notice”— also choice. All sorts of things are available at reasonable that is, the “reasonable notice” notice— prices to the general public which would not be there if “on the business of the Supplier, to the extent that this is reasonably it were not for the supermarket industry. foreseeable by the Retailer”. GC 171 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 172

[VISCOUNT ECCLES] not scrutinised properly. After that we have too much While the Competition Commission has taken this litigation. Here is this clause saying, “Oh well, go to matter into account, it has had to handle it with what the High Court or the Court of Session in Scotland”. might be described as a certain amount of flexibility, Does Parliament really want to set up another set because of the variability of the circumstances. of administrative fining, trying to fine big people who Part 3(3) of the code—and this of course is binding will have pretty good legal advice and pretty good within all supply agreements—states: arguments to put forward? Do you want them in court “Variation of Supply Agreements and terms of supply every five minutes? This does not seem to be in the (1) Subject to paragraph 3(2), a Retailer must not vary any public interest. The whole process is incredibly costly. Supply Agreement retrospectively, and must not request or require The impact assessment does not begin to try to analyse that a Supplier consent to retrospective variations of any Supply how it would work and who would be charged what Agreement. and what expenses in total would be incurred. It is a (2) A Retailer may make an adjustment to terms of supply bland document. It says in various places that it is which has retroactive effect where the relevant Supply Agreement difficult to know how this will work and how that will sets out clearly and unambiguously: work. However, it is worse than there being a lot of (a) any specific change of circumstances (such circumstances costs incurred. Who finally is going to pay? Times are being outside the Retailer’s control) that will allow for such what they are, and it is the least able to pay who adjustments to be made; and ultimately will pay. The Co-op’s margin, as I said, is (b) detailed rules that will be used as the basis for calculating 2.8% before tax. Let us suppose that it is put to fines, the adjustment to the terms of supply. goes to law and spends a lot of money—where will (3) If a Retailer has the right to vary a Supply Agreement that cost end up? The answer is: in the prices in the unilaterally, it must give Reasonable Notice of any such variation shops. What can the 10 sensibly do but alter their to the Supplier”. margins? The best net margin is Marks and Spencer’s— That is exactly why I have asked for the Office of although I have found it difficult to find out how that Fair Trading to produce its reports. It has now had is split between clothing and food—at just over 6%. 20 compliance reports: two years’ worth, from 10 different That is the highest margin that I can find. supermarkets. It either believes those compliance reports or it does not. Those compliance reports either record 2.15 pm breaches or alleged breaches of the code of practice In my view, Parliament does itself a disservice under these paragraphs or they do not. For us to regularly by pretending when it does these things that, proceed without understanding the present situation in a funny way, no one pays. We pretend that it is not is a dereliction of Parliament’s duty. the consumer or the taxpayer who pays but that in some way the payment comes out of the directors’ I welcomed the list suggested by the noble Lord, lunches or somewhere like that. We think that it is Lord Knight. I am not sure that jam with less sugar in absorbed somewhere within an institution with a name it than some other jam is a subject that quite comes like Sainsbury’s and that no one actually works there under the code, any more than pomegranate dust in as an individual. It is the institution that is paying, and chocolate does. I would just comment that exotic it never falls on the individuals. In the end, though, chocolates are mostly sold not through supermarkets, everything falls on individuals somewhere—or somewhere but through Thorntons or Hotel Chocolat. There are else. specialist retailers in exotic chocolates. Who else, one I look forward to this debate, and also to the debate then asks, produces a list of those things which on the following amendments, which do not take demonstrate a type of behaviour that might justify the exactly the same position as I am taking in front of the introduction of an administrative penalty system? Does Committee. I beg to move. the OFT produce a list? It has been looking at this market. It has the power to refer what it thinks is Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, with all anticompetitive to the Competition Commission. Does respect to the noble Viscount, we have amendments the Competition Commission have a list? Do the trade coming up later regarding the powers to fine. All that associations have a list? I have asked them all to let me we on this side want to do at this stage is say that he know what they would like to see investigated. They will not be surprised that we disagree with him, and have come back more or less with the same answer: that we will explore at greater length the reason why. their members will not tell them because they are too Suffice to say that the Federation of Small Businesses, frightened. the National Farmers’ Union and the Country Land Quite honestly, that will not do. It is not evidence. It and Business Association, to name but three of the is assertion and raises the question about suspicion. submissions that I have had, think that we should go Do Her Majesty’s Government have a list? Do the further on the powers to fine than the Bill does. We Members of this Committee have a list? If there are have support from across the House; the noble Lords, lists, that is great—I am here to be convinced, as I Lord Razzall and Lord Teverson, my noble friends think I said on Tuesday. At the moment the principle Lord Borrie and Lord Grantchester, and the noble behind this clause is quite unsupported by evidence. Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Byford, have What, the question becomes, about the clause itself? all put their names to amendments that say that we In detail it is very faulty. There is no maximum amount. should go further. We think that the status quo is the We have no idea what the Secretary of State would do minimum. The Select Committees of BIS and Defra if there was a piece of secondary legislation. We do are also supportive of the powers to fine. I am happy know that we have too much legislation. We have too to leave it to the Minister to persuade her noble friend much secondary legislation. Secondary legislation is that he should withdraw his amendment. 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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department The Bill’s provisions on financial penalties both for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): encourage compliance with the initial enforcement There is a challenge to start the day on. Our discussion regime and provide an important reserve power should on my noble friend Lord Eccles’s amendment is the stronger methods of enforcement be necessary.I therefore first discussion today on financial penalties although I propose that the provision stand part of the Bill and know that we have more to come, as the noble Lord, ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment. Lord Knight, has just said. As I said at Second Reading, the Government believe that the enforcement methods Viscount Eccles: My Lords, my noble friend starts of recommendations and requirements to publish—so- from a zero base. If we read her words carefully in called “name and shame”—are likely to be sufficient Hansard, we will find that it is as if we have no idea to ensure a higher level of compliance with the code. whether supermarkets are behaving in a fair-dealing However, should those powers be insufficient, it is way and we have to have in the locker a threat. Yet we important to have the reserve power of allowing the have had a code of practice, which was thought not to adjudicator to impose financial penalties. be satisfactory and has been beefed up. I have heard Before I continue, I say to my noble friend that here nobody in this Committee say that the new code is he has someone who understands supermarkets and unsatisfactory—I have heard the noble Lord, Lord these large companies and how they work. I have said Knight, suggest that it should be extended but I do not before and will say again that I was a supplier to six of think that anybody has quarrelled with it. It has been the largest supermarket groups. I ran a successful and in force for two years. All the 10 supermarkets have happy business during that time, but of course I did it appointed compliance officers and all of them report in the 1980s and in those days there was no written publicly—with the exception of a German-owned contract for chilled food at all. I had no written supermarket that does not report publicly in this contract, so every time I filled a lorry with £50,000-worth country—to the Office of Fair Trading. To say that we of smoked salmon or smoked mackerel I could not need the Bill to ensure compliance with the code is just even get insurance on it because I did not have a wrong. We have all the evidence that we need to know contract that I could show anyone. I took a risk in whether the code is being complied with. Where other making those journeys every day but it was advantageous things are not being reported which either come under to me to do so. I am fully aware, as are the Government, the code or could be thought to do so, I absolutely that there is a relationship between the supermarkets accept the need for their inclusion. It was for a list of and their suppliers and, ultimately and inevitably, to those things that I was looking. the consumer. My noble friend’s taking-on large orders for smoked fish with no written contract is beyond comment. She The Secretary of State would not activate this power was obviously taking excessive risk, but it was not lightly. The process by which he could do so is set out being passed on by the supermarkets, which no doubt in detail in Schedule 3, but key aspects include the fact would have been perfectly willing to enter into a that the Secretary of State may make such an order written contract. She was undertaking that risk on her only if he or she thinks that the adjudicator’s other own account and I do not see what an adjudicator powers are inadequate, and that before making such could do about that, except give some good advice. an order the Secretary of State must consult a range of Unfortunately, I am unsatisfied with the Minister’s parties, including the large retailers and the representatives reply and intend to raise the matter at the next stage of suppliers and consumers. The Bill provides sufficient of the Bill. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the checks to ensure that the power is introduced only if it amendment. is genuinely needed. Maintaining the possibility of imposing financial Amendment 37 withdrawn. penalties is essential if we are to be confident that the adjudicator will have the necessary powers to enforce Amendment 37A the groceries code. The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, was worried about the reasons for not prescribing the Moved by Lord Howard of Rising maximum fine in the Bill. It is more appropriate that 37A: Clause 6, page 2, line 30, at end insert— such a maximum be informed by experience; for example, “(2) A large retailer, subject to any enforcement measure set of how much retailers might be gaining from non- out in this section, may appeal against those measures to the compliance. This experience can be gained only once Competition Appeals Tribunal. the adjudicator is operational. Should the Secretary of (3) If the Adjudicator requires information to be published, State make an order to introduce fines, the order must the large retailer may appeal to the Competition Appeals Tribunal— specify the maximum penalty that may be imposed or (a) prior to any information being published; or how the maximum penalty is to be calculated. (b) following the publication of any information.” The very existence of the reserve power will contribute strongly to ensuring compliance with the groceries Lord Howard of Rising: My Lords, Amendment 37A code. Large retailers will be conscious that there is the essentially would give the supermarkets a right to prospect of a swift introduction of financial penalties appeal if they felt that there was a miscarriage of if there is evidence of significant non-compliance with justice or that something has not been done correctly. the groceries code and the existing regime seems not to The adjudicator will be policeman, judge and jury. It be sufficiently effective. Clearly, all large retailers will seems wrong that there is not some form of mechanism prefer to avoid this situation arising. whereby someone who feels that they have been wrongly GC 175 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 176

[LORD HOWARD OF RISING] the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, just mentioned, where an treated should be able to have recourse. I am sure that appeal can be made directly to the High Court. I am the adjudicator will be brilliant but people make mistakes grateful to my noble friend for tabling this amendment. and mistakes are made. On the previous occasion I also share the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord when we were in Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, that it should not affect anything other than Browne, spoke well on the need for things to be fair the severest penalty of fines. Mischief could be had by and to be seen to be fair. This is an extension of that way of delay. I have followed proceedings on the Bill argument. all the way through, and when amendments arise I will I also think that the retailers we are talking about try to make sure that the issues are dealt with as are above averagely susceptible to bad reputation. quickly as possible. I wonder whether it might be Naming and shaming is very effective and there should helpful—it probably is not—if the provision were be a way in which they can stop that before it happens added before or after Clause 9(4) rather than in the if there is likely to be a miscarriage of justice. Noble place suggested by my noble friend Lord Howard of Lords may recall that during the passage of the Financial Rising. That might be a better place for it, if the Services and Markets Act under the Labour Government, Minister is inclined at all to be sympathetic to the idea. the noble Lord, Lord Saatchi, introduced a right of It is reasonable that retailers who are taken to court or appeal. I am sure that the Conservative Party would held up on grounds of not adhering to the code should not want to change that sort of precedent. In the be able to appeal in some way. I am no lawyer but I interests of justice and fairness, I hope that the Minister would support having a lesser approach. However, the will give full attention to what I have said. I beg to other one will still be there as well. I do not know how move. the Minister will respond to that.

Lord Borrie: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Howard Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I support the of Rising, has made a significant point. He did not amendment in part. The complexity of the legislation specifically mention one aspect of what he is proposing; is such that it takes a bit of figuring out to work out namely, that in relation to appeals Clause 9(4) already exactly what effect it will have on the regime that will provides for an appeal against the imposition of any otherwise persist. If I understand the ambition of the financial penalty, which is the most serious penalty noble Lord, Lord Howard, it is to introduce a right of that might arise from the adjudicator’s decisions under appeal on the part of a retailer in respect of any of the this Bill. enforcement consequences and that those appeals should Whereas the Bill states that the appeal is to the all be to the Competition Appeal Tribunal. High Court in England and Wales and the Court of In the current structure of the Bill that seems to be Session in Scotland, the noble Lord, Lord Howard of unnecessary because there is no enforcement mechanism Rising, wants it to be to the Competition Appeal in respect of recommendations. The matter of whether Tribunal. I can see a lot of point in that. After all, the or not recommendations are accepted is entirely for adjudicator’s basis for action is to deal with the excessive the retailer. The recommendation is made, which the risks which are transferred from the retailer to the retailer either accepts or does not, and there is no supplier and the possibility of unexpected costs being enforcement mechanism. We will come to my discontent shifted from one to the other. Given that those proposals with that structure in a later amendment today, I hope. emanated, as we all know, from a report of the There is no necessity for an appeal against a Competition Commission, it may be very suitable that recommendation because the retailer is effectively its any appeal against an adjudicator’s financial penalty own appellate body in respect of a recommendation. should be to the Competition Appeal Tribunal, as the Retailers can ignore it, and appear to be able to do so noble Lord is suggesting, rather than the ordinary without consequence. courts, if I may put it like that—the High Court and On the “naming and shaming”, which is the operative the Court of Session. phrase used for the second of the enforcement mechanisms, The Competition Appeal Tribunal has a president I agree with the noble Lord that in commercial and who is a High Court judge and specifically experienced reputational terms that could be much more significant in competition matters. The other members of the for the retailer than a fine. If we get to fines in this tribunal are lay members who are appointed because structure, I expect that they will be substantial, otherwise of their knowledge and experience of competition they would be pointless. Naming and shaming could matters. The noble Lord, Lord Howard, has an excellent be significantly damaging to the reputation of a business point but he wants to go further and allow an appeal built up over decades. I know that witnesses who have not only against financial penalties but against any of given evidence to the BIS Select Committee and been the other powers of the adjudicator, such as naming party to the discussions on these matters in the consultation and shaming or requiring information et cetera. I do period which has informed our deliberations have differing not think, any more than those who devised the Bill views on how retailers will respond to naming and think, that there needs to be an appeal on those shaming and whether it matters to them. I think that matters or powers that the adjudicator may exercise. an argument can be made that it is a significant penalty and that, in fairness, there ought to be an opportunity 2.30 pm for the retailer to have that decision reviewed or appealed Baroness Byford: My Lords, I must admit that in some way before it is implemented. when reading through the Bill very carefully, I am I note with some interest that the amendment moved somewhat sympathetic to the proposal to have some by the noble Lord, Lord Howard, creates a right of form of appeal apart from that in Clause 9(4), which appeal even after the penalty has been imposed. I can GC 177 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 178 see the merit in that, but it seems to me that if we Viscount Eccles: My Lords, I have an amendment accept that there ought to be an appeal then we ought in this group. Before I speak to it, however, I should to stay the execution until the appeal takes places. like to say briefly that anything that would lower the There is no point in pardoning an already executed cost of settling disputes is to be welcomed. The High prisoner. That would be a pointless exercise in many Court is not to be welcomed in that regard. After all, ways apart from—well, I do not want to take the the intention behind the code of practice was, and is, analogy too far. to provide a method for settling disputes that does not involve the courts or a tribunal at all. As I say, I still To that extent I support the argument of the noble hope to find that the Committee can be persuaded Lord, Lord Howard, and his amendment—so I support that that is the best way of settling disputes. it in part. That may, in my experience of this Committee today, be the kiss of death to the proposed amendment, My amendments go to the naming-and-shaming no matter how sensible or fair it is. The noble Lord has part of the enforcement by seeking to leave out specifying the advantage, of course, of the partial support of the what information is to be published, how it must be noble Lord, Lord Borrie. That might persuade the published and the time by which it must be published. Government that there is sense in the amendment, as I have a later amendment that is a substitution because that seems to be the touchstone in determining whether I would like the criteria that are to be used to cover the there will be a positive response from the Treasury matter of publication to be in the guidance under Benches. However, the question—and I think it does a Clause 12. I am on board with the adjudicator being in service to our consideration—feeds into our later some form of sensible dialogue with the supermarket deliberations on the issue of fines. I would just say in about what the information should be and how and passing to the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, that I when it should be published. However, Clause 8(2) is agree with much of what he said. Although I do not far too prescriptive and will lead to endless arguments. agree with the reasons why he is making the arguments, When we come to the matter of appeals, we have to I will try to explain later why I agree with much of remember that we do not actually have to write someone what he said and why I think that it was really important. having a right to appeal into an Act of Parliament; There is a fundamental systemic misconstruction in there is nothing to stop them going to court if they relation to fines in the middle of the Bill which we want to do so and think they have a good case. I need to address. suggest to the Committee that we should be careful about making the Bill so adversarial, instead of looking The Committee’s deliberations so far are getting to for sensible and fair dealing and agreement. the heart of the issue of the workability of this regime. I suggest, with respect, that it is incumbent on the Lord Browne of Ladyton: I agree with the noble Minister to explain why there is this differentiation in Viscount that in the current environment it is impossible approach. Why are there three methods of enforcement? to stop people going to court. They will find a way to One of the methods is not enforcement at all but is get to court, and that way will probably be judicial simply a suggestion which can be accepted by the review. If one has sufficient resources behind one—we retailer. One is a fairly draconian consequence for a are talking here about the 10 biggest retailers in the substantial business which will probably operate in all country, and no one apart from the Government has of our communities, and have a replication in all of resources that can match them—and feels strongly our communities, but a consequence in which there is enough about an issue, one is entitled to find a way to no system of appeal at all. The third method, and I get to court. The problem is that if Parliament does will come to it in more detail later, either should be not allow a right of appeal then it will probably have in the Bill or it should not be in the Bill—but it to go by some form of judicial review. What is should not be halfway in—and that is financial unsatisfactory about judicial review is that it deals penalties. with the process more than it deals with the content, I would say, finally, that I am grateful to the noble although the content quite often enforces the process. Lord, Lord Howard, as I am also to my noble friend Invariably, one then has to start again. Instead of Lord Borrie, for their comments on expansion of the concluding the matter, therefore, that may just cause it Competition Appeal Tribunal. I will need to go away to start again at even greater expense. While the noble and research the issue. When I first read the Bill I Viscount recognises that we cannot stop people going thought that adding to the workload of the already to court, I suggest that it is better if we can provide a overworked High Court in England, Wales and Northern sensible and efficient method of reviewing decisions Ireland and the Court of Session in Scotland may not that people who are aggrieved can take advantage of. be a wise thing to do. It almost certainly will be an inordinately expensive process. There will have to be at Viscount Eccles: My Lords, I completely agree. I am least five or six wigs on each side of this argument not trying to be prescriptive at all. All that I am saying when it gets to that level of debate. If this can be done is that if people feel that they are being unjustly dealt much more efficiently through the Competition Appeal with and they have the resources, they will find some Tribunal and in a less litigious way then I would way of challenging what they think is that unjustifiable support it. However, I will go away and think about behaviour. We are debating this matter against the that. I suspect that we will have an opportunity at a background that no one has yet been able to say what later stage to deliberate on that, and I may find myself sort of behaviour by the supermarkets they want to falling in foursquare behind the idea of an appeal to a see investigated by the adjudicator. If we knew that, Competition Appeal Tribunal as opposed to otherwise we would be in a better position to decide how severe overworked courts. the enforcement procedures should be. GC 179 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 180

Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, I rise in diminish its impact. Taking these matters into account, support of my noble friend Lord Browne’s position, the Government consider that a full right of appeal is which he articulated very well. The noble Lord, Lord needed only against financial penalties and that otherwise Howard of Rising, has raised an interesting issue. The the possibility of judicial review by the court will be Competition Appeal Tribunal came into force in 2003 sufficient. in order, as its website says: In addition, the noble Lord seeks to replace the “To hear appeals on the merits in respect of decisions made principle of appeal to, or review by, the High Court or under the Competition Act … by the Office of Fair Trading … Court of Session with appeal to, or review by, the and the regulators in the telecommunications, electricity, gas, Competition Appeal Tribunal. While the adjudicator water, railways and air traffic services sectors”. is being introduced on competition grounds, the details It does a few other things as well. The noble Lord is of the practices addressed by the groceries code are asking the Government a reasonable question about not the same as anti-trust cases or the other issues whether there should be an alternative to the court in dealt with by the Competition Appeal Tribunal. The respect of appeals. As my noble friend has said, this is High Court or Court of Session in Scotland is therefore about the merits of the decision as well as the process an appropriate place for such appeals to be heard. by which the decision has been made. I look forward to what the Minister has to say. However, I have listened to your Lordships today who support what the noble Lord, Lord Howard, has said or want to question this issue further. Therefore, I 2.45 pm am willing to consider this point and will invite the Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, much of the debate noble Lord, Lord Howard, to a meeting, as well as any about sanctions today has focused on financial penalties. other noble Lords who spoke, including the noble However, I value the opportunity to discuss the rationale Lords, Lord Borrie and Lord Browne, the noble Baroness, behind the other enforcement powers available to the Lady Byford, and the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles. adjudicator. The noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, I turn to the amendment proposed by the noble has brought forward two amendments which would Viscount, Lord Eccles. The Bill contains clear requirements together extend the right to a full merits appeal so that for the adjudicator as to what they must specify to the it applied to all the enforcement methods and would retailer if they require a retailer to publish information. be to the Competition Appeal Tribunal. The Bill already The noble Lord has suggested that these be removed. I provides for a full merits appeal to the court against believe that it is important that if a retailer is being financial penalties, if these are introduced. In the case asked to publish information, it should be told what of recommendations or the requirement to publish information it must publish, how the information information, the Government believe that judicial review should be published and the time by which it must be is more appropriate. published. Otherwise, the instruction will be unclear In the case of recommendations, it must be emphasised or it could leave too much discretion to the retailer that these are non-binding on retailers. There is no concerned. Given that this is a means of enforcement consequence which follows if the retailer does not to be used following a breach of the code, I also comply, other than the possibility of a further investigation, believe that it is reasonable for the adjudicator to be which could lead to the imposition of a further sanction able to specify what information is to be published, as only if a further breach of the code were found. We well as when and where it is to be published. therefore believe that, in this case, a full merits appeal Accepting this amendment would make the Bill less would be clearly inappropriate. clear and would weaken one of the adjudicator’s means The Government acknowledge that for the requirement of enforcement. In asking the noble Lord, Lord Howard, to publish information the arguments are more finely to withdraw his amendment, I repeat my offer to him balanced. However, having considered this in depth, to meet me and my officials. we believe that judicial review remains the most appropriate form of appeal. The reasons for this were set out in the Government’s response to the BIS Select Lord Browne of Ladyton: I am grateful to the Minister Committee’s report. They include the independence for giving way; I have no desire to prolong proceedings and impartiality of the adjudicator and the breadth of this afternoon. In anticipating that the noble Lord, matters that an investigation is likely to consider. The Lord Howard of Rising, might accept the invitation to critical difference between the requirement to publish discuss these matters further, I would welcome being a and a financial penalty is that in the latter case there is party to those discussions. a very direct and immediate consequence for the retailer, Will the Minister ask those advising her to take into whereas a publication of information is rather different. account the interaction of Clause 8(3) with the expectation It should be remembered here that this information that review will be conducted by way of judicial review? will not in itself determine that a retailer has any That has the potential to create a multiplicity of obligation to a particular supplier. The supplier would actions that are entirely unnecessary. She indicated still need to bring his case to arbitration to seek that there was effectively no enforcement mechanism damages or any other remedy. in relation to naming and shaming. But there is such a Finally, we have also taken into account the implications mechanism, by way of injunction or specific performance, that a full right of appeal against a mere requirement in Scotland. I can see a judge in the Court of Session to publish could have for the effectiveness of the in Scotland or in the High Court in England having an adjudicator. A full right of appeal, requiring the repetition application before them and saying, “I cannot go into of a detailed fact-finding exercise, could seriously the merits of this case. They are for another forum”. delay the requirement to publish and so substantially A judicial review will be raised at the same time and GC 181 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 182 the interaction between the two will have to be worked mechanism of recommendations, there is nothing that out by judges in the same courts involving enormous the adjudicator can do except to bear it in mind for the expense all because there is no appeal. That is inevitable. next time. Or, if a further complaint resurrects that issue, I understand from what I have read that there is Baroness Wilcox: I think that I may have an answer a possibility of further investigation and then of going for the noble Lord now, but as we will be discussing back to the original set of penalties to see if an this further we will come back to it. The requirement appropriate one can be imposed, taking into account to publish needs an enforcement mechanism. We should that on the previous occasion the retailer ignored the not oust the rights to judicial review and therefore we lesser penalty which was designed to start the process off. need both. That is the answer that I am giving now. We As with many other aspects of the Bill, I can see shall take it into consideration with everything else. I why the Government in seeking some form of light-touch want at least to be sure that I am giving an explanation regulation—although that phrase is out of fashion at that is clear. In the mean time, I ask my noble friend to the moment—have built an escalator into the Bill. I withdraw the amendment. fundamentally disagree with this but the Government are seeking Parliament’s permission to do very ill Lord Howard of Rising: I thank noble Lords for defined things at some time in the future by way of a their support, which is something that I am not really process that is totally inadequate: for example, by used to but is nevertheless very welcome. The essential increasing the powers of the adjudicator in relation to difference is between financial penalties and naming fining. They are asking Parliament to give the adjudicator and shaming. Those of us who are old enough to a similar type of power; that is, to be able to escalate remember a certain gentleman referring to his jewellery their response as the record against an individual being cheaper and not quite as good as a Marks and retailer builds up. I have proposed this amendment Spencer sandwich will know that that was the end of because that is totally unsatisfactory. It is inappropriate his business. It was finished. The businesses that we to ask Parliament to do that. are talking about are very susceptible to reputation. The much simpler answer to this is to say that if They work on very thin margins and do not need the adjudicator’s recommendations are ignored, the many people to move for those to be affected. I am adjudicator should be able to escalate. They should be very grateful to the Minister for agreeing to look at the able to go back and say, “Well, I gave you a chance but issue. When she does so, she will need to look at two or you ignored me, so I’m now going to ratchet the three ancillary points as they all tie in together. In the penalty up because your behaviour in ignoring my mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. recommendations has exacerbated the original behaviour”. As the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, points out, it Amendment 37A withdrawn. would be much better if we were doing all this against a body of evidence showing that that was how the Clause 6 agreed. retailers were behaving, but we are not. However, all that has been discussed and, it would appear, investigated Clause7:Investigations: enforcement using over the best part of a decade, with recommendations recommendations having been made and accepted. There is quite significant support for this process, but if it is to mean anything Amendments 38 and 39 not moved. there has to be some element of common sense about it. It seems entirely inappropriate to leave the adjudicator Amendment 40 in a position where, if their recommendations are ignored, the adjudicator either has to find some method Moved by Lord Browne of Ladyton of starting again or has to store that up for a later 40: Clause 7, page 2, line 35, at end insert— date, saying, “The next time that you come round, I “( ) In the event that a recommendation has not been followed, will take that into account in the penalty that I will the Adjudicator may invoke the remaining enforcement measures impose”. If the adjudicator ratchets up the naming referred to in section 6.” and shaming, we may have to wait until we have these promised discussions about naming and shaming and Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, the amendment other enforcement to find out whether the adjudicator addresses the issue referred to in the ninth report of will be in any stronger a position on that than on the BIS Select Committee as “escalation of enforcement”. recommendations. Simply put, Clause 7 concerns I am sure that the noble Baroness will be very familiar “enforcement using recommendations”. There is no with that report. The issue is encapsulated with all the sanction provided in the event that recommendations arguments in a couple of pages of that report, starting are not followed. There needs to be a sanction and this at paragraph 120. amendment provides it from the Bill itself. If I have understood the Bill correctly—leaving Interestingly enough, that is the Government’s aside the issue of fines which we will come to in some position—or, at least, it was the position articulated detail shortly—the Government propose that the by the Government’s Minister to the BIS Select Committee adjudicator will have enforcement powers that include in his evidence. When Ed Davey gave evidence to the making recommendations and what has come to be BIS Select Committee, he answered the question about known as naming and shaming. We have had a discussion this matter by saying that that was the Government’s about that so I shall not go back over it in any detail. expectation of the adjudicator. He had subsequently If, however, the retailer involved ignores the enforcement to explain that he was sticking by the mechanism in GC 183 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 184

[LORD BROWNE OF LADYTON] be (a) or nothing, (b) or nothing, or (c) or nothing. the Bill, but his intuitive position—the phrase that the I hope that as it stands it will be able to look at Select Committee uses in recording and commentating different ways of coming back to it. on his evidence—was that the adjudicator should have I go back to an earlier contribution that I did not the opportunity to escalate. He is right. The Government come in on. It keeps being said that there is little should be consistent with the intuitive position that evidence. It is not surprising that there has not been their Minister holds and put to us legislation which much evidence in the past; that is why the Bill is reflects that, as this amendment would do. I beg to necessary. In the past an individual supplier was the move. only person who could bring evidence. That individual supplier was known and future trading was very difficult. 3pm Only this morning, I was in conversation with a The Lord Bishop of Wakefield: My Lords, I support vegetable supplier whom I happened to meet informally. the amendment. My commitment to the issues lying She was telling me that one of the retailers she supplies behind the legislation goes back a very long way. In had agreed a contract which had gone through, but, terms of suppliers and retailers, it is rooted in the because the retailer thought that the circumstances issues of the locality in which I have lived for the past were different, it had asked for a rebate on the contract nine or 10 years. This instinct has been reinforced by that had been agreed. Surely that is extremely unacceptable. my experience more widely. Wherever possible, I have I hope that the Bill will deal with that. The reason that been trying to urge us to move forward on this and it is we have not had evidence is that people would not greatly encouraging to see that something is happening have come forward as the Bill will enable them to do. at last. At the root of this is the issue of the fairness of the market. Going back many years, when there were Lord Howard of Rising: That is precisely what happened lots of debates about how effectively employers and to me. I just said, “That’s fine. We won’t supply you employees were represented in the labour market, the any more”, and they said, “Fine, we will pay the full key issues were its fairness and whether the balance of amount”. It is a commercial transaction between two power was too strong in one direction or the other. commercial bodies. That is the problem with which we are dealing. Anything that we can do to ensure that the legislation as finally enacted gives the adjudicator proper teeth so that Baroness Byford: I accept that, and in some instances abuses can be addressed. Some of the abuses that have it is possible, but sometimes with perishables it is not. come to my knowledge have been quite hair-raising. I If you take the contract away, what do you do with the hope that we support this amendment and that we goods? They are already lost. Although I accept my make sure, if it appears that what is required is being noble friend’s interjection, I do not agree with it ignored, that we allow the adjudicator the possibility because certain things have no shelf life; they are there of taking other forms of enforcement. or they are gone.

Lord Borrie: It is very useful to have the views of Lord Howard of Rising: My instance was strawberries, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield. He and I assure my noble friend that they have a very has attached his name to one or two amendments short shelf life. later, so we look forward to further contributions from him. I agree with my noble friend’s wish to ensure that Baroness Byford: Yes, but perhaps my noble friend if recommendations made by the adjudicator are not was in a better position than that supplier; there was carried forward, he or she can come back to the Bill to clearly a problem there. see what other action can be taken, including the possibility of financial penalties. I welcome the amendment and am glad that we have a chance to debate it. I hope that when we come Addressing a question to the Minister rather than to later amendments concerning fines, we will be able to my noble friend, who proposed the amendment, to strengthen the provisions. I do not know whether Clause 6 states, that will make this amendment unnecessary—I seek “the Adjudicator may take one or more of the following enforcement clarification on that, because I do not know the Minister’s measures … recommendations … information to be published … point of view. If we fail later to strengthen the whole impose financial penalties”. section on fines, the amendment will be extremely I wonder whether the Bill already enables the important. adjudicator to go from one to the other if the first proposal—recommendations—is not accepted, or is it the Minister’s view that he can do only one of those Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, I will not add things and not come back and open up lines of discussion to the excellent case made by my noble friend Lord as to whether one of the other measures can be taken Browne, but he has my support. later? Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, the point raised by the Baroness Byford: My Lords, I am grateful for this noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, is important amendment. It gives me a chance to seek clarification and the Government have considered it carefully. It yet again. My understanding from the noble Lord, was also raised by the Business Select Committee in Lord Borrie, was that the adjudicator would go choose pre-legislative scrutiny, as the noble Lord mentioned, between (a), (b) and (c). I did not think that it would and the Government amended the Bill in response. GC 185 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 186

I take the opportunity to respond to the noble Lord, that. Yes, if there is a continuing breach—not just a Lord Borrie, who asked whether the Bill already allows failure to follow a recommendation—obviously that such escalation. That is not our intention. In Clause 6, would be the response. subsections (a), (b) and (c) are not intended to be sequential. One or more measures would be imposed Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I am extremely at the same time following one investigation. I hope grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of that that is helpful. Wakefield, my noble friend Lord Borrie, and the noble The question is: what should be the adjudicator’s Baroness, Lady Byford, for their support. The noble options if a retailer does not follow a recommendation? Lord, Lord Borrie, is a very wise and knowledgeable Before answering this question, I emphasise two things. man. At least, today he has displayed that; I am not First, recommendations are not mandatory. If they sure if he was so consistent the other day. I am very were, that would give too much power to the adjudicator: grateful for his support, and I must at least be fairly he or she could essentially tell retailers how to run near the right answer on this occasion. their business. Recommendations are meant to be the The Minister’s response disappoints but does not lightest touch form of sanction, not the most severe. surprise me, because there has been a consistent Secondly, there may be good reasons why a retailer has recommendation that the adjudicator should have the not followed a recommendation. For example, a retailer power to escalate right throughout all of the consultation might decide that it can more effectively comply with process on the Bill. Indeed, the Business, Innovation the code using a different method than that recommended and Skills Select Committee, at the end of its deliberations, by the adjudicator. supported escalation. I know that the Government’s Having said that, there must be some way in which position was not to support it. the adjudicator can follow up recommendations. After considering the BIS Select Committee’s report, the Let me respond to the Minister in this way, as I am Government chose to provide for this in three ways. sure we will debate this again: in the first instance, if First, Clause 7(2) requires the adjudicator to monitor there is a recommendation, that means the retailer whether a recommendation has been followed. Next, has—in the view of the adjudicator—broken the groceries Schedule 2, paragraph 1(2) provides the adjudicator code. We are starting from the point that the adjudicator with powers to require information from a retailer for is dealing with someone in breach of the code. The the purpose of monitoring whether a recommendation powers of enforcement following investigations cannot has been followed. Thirdly, Clause 4(1)(b) allows the be imposed unless the adjudicator is satisfied that a adjudicator to begin a further investigation if there are large retailer has broken the groceries code. reasonable grounds to suspect that a retailer has failed Of course, failure to follow a recommendation is to follow a recommendation. It is possible that a not evidence that a large retailer is continuing to break failure to comply with a recommendation could indicate the groceries code. There may be any number of reasons that a retailer was continuing to breach the code, but a why a large retailer may refuse to accept, carry out or new sanction could be imposed only if a further respond to, a recommendation. I agree with the Minister investigation found that this was the case. Taken together, in that regard. However, in her argument she said that these clauses provide an effective means for the adjudicator the Government have granted the adjudicator the to follow up a recommendation while still being fair to power, in those circumstances, to consider as part of the retailer in question. the follow-up a yet further investigation, because a My concern about the amendment in the name of refusal to accept a recommendation will in some the noble Lord, Lord Browne, is that to impose a new circumstances imply a continued breach of the code. sanction without a second investigation could be unfair Those are the only circumstances that I can see in the and damaging to the retailer. After all, just because it Bill where the adjudicator can initiate an investigation has not followed a recommendation does not mean where he has no reasonable grounds to believe. It is the that it has actually broken the code. failure to follow a recommendation that gives him the I hope that noble Lords will agree that the Bill as it power to institute the new investigation. stands already encapsulates the principle embodied by Amendment 40. 3.15 pm The Government conveniently say, “Of course, Lord Knight of Weymouth: With respect, I do not common sense tells us that if a large retailer refuses to think that the Minister has properly addressed the accept a recommendation, then that retailer is at it and notion that at some point, reluctant as the Government is probably continuing to breach the code, so we may be, they may agree to the adjudicator having the should give the adjudicator the power to institute a power to fine. If naming and shaming has not worked, new investigation on the basis that that is a reasonable then surely it is reasonable for the adjudicator to inference”. However, then, sentences later, they say, escalate to impose fines without having to reinvestigate, “Of course, the refusal to respond properly to or to with all of the delay consequential to that, before implement a recommendation does not mean that the using the power to fine. Is this just an indication that large retailer is continuing to breach the code”. One in reality the Government do not ever want to offer can ride two horses only so far and eventually they the adjudicator the power to fine? start to tear one apart. These two horses are going in different directions. The reason that the Minister has Baroness Wilcox: That cannot be the case, because to present these apparently contradictory arguments we have made an arrangement that fines can be imposed, to this Committee in sequence is that the logical though it will be the Secretary of State who allows answer to this problem has not been accepted. The logical GC 187 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 188

[LORD BROWNE OF LADYTON] of our time in trying to work out what it all means, answer is just to give the adjudicator the power to perhaps it is just too complicated and we are trying to escalate, which, interestingly, the noble Lord, Lord be too clever. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Borrie, to a degree supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, thought was in the Bill, although I agree Amendment 40 withdrawn. with the Minister that the provisions in Clause 6 are intended to be alternatives or choices for the adjudicator. He can choose more than one of them, but not to be Amendment 41 not moved. delivered in sequence. If you appear before a criminal court, you can from most judges receive a community Clause 7 agreed. penalty, be fined or be sent to prison, but the judge cannot do all three things to you, unless there is a specific power to do so. Clause8:Investigations: enforcement using However, the adjudicator has that power here, so requirements to publish information there is an answer. The answer is for this clause to imply that the adjudicator can impose one or more Amendments 42 to 44 not moved. penalties and suspend one of them on condition that the other is implemented. The common law will probably allow that, so we might have the answer already in Clause 8 agreed. the Bill, whereby the adjudicator, having once had recommendations ignored, says, “I tell you what, in this case, I make certain recommendations and I propose Clause9:Investigations: enforcement using financial also to name and shame, but I will suspend the naming penalties and shaming on condition that you implement the recommendations”. We then get the sequence without the statutory power. Amendment 45 I do not ask the Minister to respond to that now, Moved by Baroness Randerson because we will have the opportunity of a discussion 45: Clause 9, page 3, line 17, leave out subsection (1) about penalties and another debate, but it seems to me that that will happen. If I were appointed to be the adjudicator, I would certainly take legal advice as to Baroness Randerson: My Lords, Amendments 45 whether this is what I could do. and 47 in my name relate to the ability to impose fines, Before I withdraw the amendment, I say in response which has been referred to and anticipated by several to the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, who properly speakers today. Under the Bill, it is assumed that intervened on me to see whether I was on the right side naming and shaming will be sufficient to bring errant of the argument of there being enough evidence to retailers into line, which requires a specific second-stage justify the measures, that my approach to this part of decision by the Secretary of State for the adjudicator the proceedings—this is not Second Reading—is one to be able to levy fines. I believe that this is a cumbersome of support for the legislation. I am convinced by the process which will lead to delays, including, possibly, evidence that has been accumulated over a decade that changing the behaviour of supermarkets. It would there is a need for a code and for an enforcer of it, be it undermine the freedom and independence with which a referee, adjudicator or whatever. There is a need for the adjudicator should be able to act. somebody to play this role. I am interested in making The amendments in my name and those of my the legislation work in a way that does not involve noble friends would remove references to the Secretary some poor person being in litigation with some of the of State and would therefore allow the adjudicator to best resourced organisations in the world for the rest impose fines from the outset. Of course, the adjudicator of his or her professional life. does not have to impose a fine if he or she finds a breach of the code. He could simply admonish the retailer concerned and make recommendations. I fully Baroness Wilcox: Before the noble Lord withdraws accept that the loss of reputation for retailers would his amendment, to which he will no doubt return on be the key punishment. A reputation takes years to Report, it might be useful for me to comment. It is build and can be lost in a day. Therefore, the loss of possible for a retailer to have breached the code and reputation will matter to them considerably. For some the adjudicator to decide that a recommendation is retailers, it may be that breaches are sufficiently frequent enough. The adjudicator will not know for sure whether to justify fines. I believe that having to wait for the a failure to follow a recommendation is also a breach Secretary of State to make the decision to ensure that of the code. That will need to be further investigated fines can be levied is lengthy, cumbersome and unnecessary. to be fair to the retailer. The history of this legislation is rather tortuous. I say that with absolutely no criticism of my noble Lord Browne of Ladyton: I am very grateful to the friend the Minister or this Government. I make no noble Baroness who is utterly generous in responding criticism of the previous Government. I am simply to every point that is made in these debates. It is very pointing out that it has taken years to get to this stage. helpful in understanding how this complicated system We are now moving to a legislative basis. Let us not will work. Essentially, this is a plea to make this put any further hurdles in the way of a fully effective legislation less complicated. If it is occupying so much system. GC 189 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 190

The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I remind 3.30 pm your Lordships that if this amendment is agreed to, I The Lord Bishop of Wakefield: My Lords, once cannot call Amendment 46 because of pre-emption. again I support the general tenor of the amendments. Some of the same issues that were raised by the noble Baroness Byford: I shall speak to Amendment 46, Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, in the previous debate which is in my name and that of the noble Lords, Lord are here. It seems to be about complexity, and the Borrie, Lord Knight and Lord Grantchester. Here we ability to take action swiftly is crucial. The Minister come to the crux of the Bill. I am sure that the talked about fairness to retailers but it seems to me Minister has gathered that there is great support for that part of the issue is getting fairness into the the Bill. A couple of colleagues do not feel that way, system. There is a clear unfairness to suppliers and it is but the majority of us want the Bill to succeed. I once again about trying to change the culture and tabled the amendment because I felt that if the adjudicator address the question of balance within the market. has to go back to the Secretary of State, that will delay I shall give two examples. The first concerns an things. Briefings from the Food and Drink Federation, individual retailer who insisted that a particular supplier the NFU, the Federation of Small Businesses and the of dairy products must, if he wanted to continue to be CLA all support the adjudicator being able to impose a supplier across the board of this very large retailer, fines. pay a premium of £150,000. Without that premium To cite the CLA’s brief, it believes that it should be the products would no longer be retailed in a very the sole responsibility and a significant power of the large number of stores within the chain. The supplier adjudicator to impose financial penalties on large refused for two reasons. First, he felt that there was a retailers where it is clear that there has been a serious lack of morality in the demand and secondly, he could breach of the groceries code and where the other two not afford to do it. Happily he was switched on enforcement actions—making recommendations and enough to be in touch with people who immediately requiring information to be published by a large complained that they could no longer get the products. retailer—are inadequate in relation to the nature and In our marvellous electronic world, he was able to size of the breach. Indeed, it may very well be the case send them down the road to another local retailer. that a supplier will not be able to continue unless That is one example with one retailer. there is financial redress for the damages caused by The other example, which we all know about only the infringement. It believes that the Bill must make too well, has been a continuing debate in the past it clear that the adjudicator retains the power to 10 years on the issue of milk suppliers and getting a impose financial penalties and that awards to those fair price for milk. Here it involves not just one retailer suppliers affected by the breach of the code by large but a series of retailers acting together in their own retailers must come from the proposed consolidation best interests. I can understand their best interests. fund. Perhaps if I were one of them I might want to push the same line. But in the end, it has the effect of driving My noble friend has just explained, but I reinforce suppliers into an impossible position. my concern about delay if the Bill remains as drafted. One of the problems of suppliers is getting paid for First, we need swift action because it soon becomes things that they have supplied. I go back to the earlier clear that whatever legislation we produce is effectively comment of my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising weak as it gets pushed back all the time. Secondly, I when he said that it is up to the person who supplies to take the debate about naming and shaming, and costs, go away. The arrangement that I heard of this morning but I only have to refer noble Lords to yesterday’s was done retrospectively. The contract had been agreed, news about Barclays Bank. Whether the management the whole supply had been sold, so they could not say, of that bank will survive in their present roles, I have “No, you cannot have it”, because they had already no idea, but it will not do them very much good to find had it but were changing the ground and asking for a that they have to pay £290 million in fines. I am not reduction in the agreed payment. They could not take suggesting that we are talking about that level of fine the goods back, because they had been sold. here, but unless there are serious mandatory controls, we shall enact legislation that in principle is thoroughly I am happy to support the lead amendment in the positive and good, but which in practice does not get group, but if the Bill is to succeed, it must give the the market more evenly balanced. adjudicator the chance to impose financial penalties. Clause 9(1) clearly states, “The Adjudicator may”—it Lord Borrie: My Lords, I am very happy to follow does not say that it must— the right reverend Prelate as I agree entirely with “enforce through imposing financial penalties”, everything that he said. He gave useful examples. I attached my name to the amendment tabled by the but only if it goes back to the Secretary of State. Is noble Baroness, Lady Byford, because I was convinced—I what is proposed the norm or have we taken a new think I said something like this at Second Reading—that step? Why is there that reluctance to allow the adjudicator this provision should be in the Bill rather than there to impose fines? being just a possibility of a statutory instrument being To go back to our earlier debate on appeals, if some laid at some later stage, with all the delays and question form of appeals system is strengthened and if the marks that that would involve. It should be in the Bill amendment we debated earlier would assist, the that there is a possibility of a financial penalty. requirement for it to go back to the Secretary of State The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, used a word would be even less needed than under the Bill as it with which I entirely agree, saying that the Government’s stands. approach by not putting the power in the Bill is GC 191 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 192

[LORD BORRIE] be a meaningful one. I say that because this code can cumbersome. It is a cumbersome way of going about be enforced only against the top 10 retailers in the things. I am so glad that the noble Viscount, Lord country. These are enormous businesses. If financial Eccles, is here. If I may refer to some of the things he penalties are to have any effect on them, they will have said earlier this afternoon, if this power goes into the to be significant. Bill, I do not envisage the adjudicator taking a great However, there is a much more concerning issue deal of time thinking about penalties, the amount, about this construction. I am sure that the noble and all the rest of it. I use a word most often used in Baroness—or those advising her—may say, or even be criminal law, which I hope will appeal to my noble able to find, an example of where something similar friend—deterrence. The possibility of a financial penalty was done in the past in order to support doing it —whether anywhere near that imposed by the Financial again—although the example will probably turn out Services Authority on the bank yesterday, or not—has not to have been extraordinarily successful. I am sure a deterrent effect that is extremely important. The that in responding the Minister will say that Parliament adjudicator will not be judged on the amounts of fines has supervision of this to the extent that it allows this that he imposes to prove that he is a good or a useful mechanism and that it is entirely proportionate—and man in his post—he will be judged as much by the I am sure that the word “proportionate” will be used effect of his powers upon the industry. regularly in the response. Of course, the mechanism does not give Parliament any role if it disagrees with Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, my understanding the Secretary of State’s persisting view that financial of both these amendments is that they are intended to penalties are not appropriate. have the same effect. One may be more elegant than The Secretary of State holds all the cards now. The the other, but I think that they probably have the same Secretary of State is constrained by this to allow effect, and I support both in the effect they are seeking financial penalties only if he concludes that the other to achieve. powers are inadequate. If the Secretary of State does I do not intend to rehearse the arguments that the not conclude that, how are they accountable to noble Baroness who moved the amendment made Parliament? How on earth can Parliament make the comprehensively. However, there are some other points Secretary of State accountable in terms of these that are worth making, and points that we have debated mechanisms for not triggering this power, other than already this afternoon which are worth drawing on. the inadequate process of Questions or maybe a Question First, the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, in his opening for Short Debate? There is no mechanism whereby remarks as we began our deliberations this afternoon, Parliament can say, “This is not what we intended. encapsulated the problem at the heart of the Bill in There are egregious breaches of this going on and the relation to penalties. He set out quite fairly the fine as Secretary of State is not willing to trigger this power”, a penalty and enforcement mechanism, and also the and that is inappropriate. There is not even a continuing choices that face the Committee and Parliament in method for amending this legislation or a clause that relation to the Bill. Either we have a piece of legislation can be resurrected in some fashion. There is just no that includes financial penalties or we do not—or, method for making the Secretary of State accountable because of the road that the Government have gone for a continuing failure to recognise what is going on down, we have a piece of legislation that kind of and to leave a piece of legislation ineffective because a includes financial penalties. part of it has not been enacted. However, the decision on whether these financial penalties will ever become operative lies outwith the Lord Teverson: My Lords, when first I was looking control of those who are being asked to legislate—other forward to reading the Bill, there were two areas that I than that they will, by the interaction of Clause 9, felt were of key importance. One was that we managed Schedule 3 and, I think, Clause 23, get an opportunity, to expand the number of people who could bring a via a statutory instrument, to have a short debate case to the adjudicator for the adjudicator to judge which will probably be conducted with very few people from then on, and that was well satisfied by the in the room, in a comparatively short time and with no Government and the Minister in our discussions on power to amend. If the Secretary of State comes to the the previous Committee day. The other area is this view that the history of the adjudicator’s experience one: is this an adjudicator that counts or one that is thus far reveals that the operative penalties—the there merely for form? Yes, there may be a question of recommendations and the naming and shaming—have reputation, but not all retailers are that concerned proved to be insufficient, these financial penalties can about reputation in every sense. This is a powerful tool be activated. and we know that the restricted population of these That means that, in terms of this Bill, we cannot retailers is going to be sensitive to it but, to show that have any debate on what level of penalty is appropriate, Parliament and the Government are serious in this what sort of circumstances would trigger a penalty as legislation, there has to be a direct ability on the part opposed to one of the other enforcement mechanisms of the adjudicator to be able to make fines. It is a or whether we would like rules to be made so that measure of whether this is a serious creation of an violations of the code can be differentiated by their appointment. It is for that reason that the amendment nature and attract different types of penalties. I do not put forward by my noble friends is important and goes think that that is constitutionally appropriate. Given to the heart of making the Bill something that the the nature of the sort of penalty that we must expect, industry on both sides will pay attention to. On that it is not appropriate for Parliament to be denied the basis, I hope that the Minister’s response will be opportunity to have such a debate if the penalty is to positive. GC 193 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 194

Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, we were very that, the submission that the Food and Drink Federation pleased to put our names to the amendment in the put into the EFRA Select Committee is pertinent. name of the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, and support Paragraph 7 of its evidence states: the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, as well. Should “we do not believe that the Adjudicator’s forms of enforcement the Minister, with her charm and grace, agree to these such as making recommendations or requiring a retailer to publish amendments, then Schedule 3 will be unnecessary, so information relating to an investigation would act as a sufficient this is the stand part debate as well. As we have heard, deterrent. In particular, our concern is that name and shame the adjudicator has the power to fine retailers, subject mechanisms tend to be highly transitory and may not have the to permission—I think that my noble friend Lord desired effect given that their effectiveness and impact may depend Browne made good points in respect of that. We will on external factors”, go on to talk about the cumbersome number of hurdles such as “the wider news agenda”. If a big issue of the that must be breached in Schedule 3 in a later debate. day is dominating the news, naming and shaming is Schedule 3 sets out a hugely drawn-out process, which less effective. I am sure that the first name-and-shame will do nothing to instil much-needed confidence in case will be highly effective and poisonous to that those farmers and small businesses that may have been retailer and the second quite poisonous, but less so. It severely affected by retailers that breached the code. depends on whether it is news. I put it to the Committee We are grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop that we need to have the power to fine so that it is of Wakefield for giving us some more examples. We available to people should naming and shaming become need those people to have confidence in the adjudicator. less effective over time. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is right to say that I also remind the Committee of the perils of weak giving that adjudicator the power to fine from day one regulators. The charge is put that my party, when in would give a strong indication that Parliament and government, listened too much to the Opposition of government are serious about this adjudicator being the day, who said that we should deregulate the banks able to take on these extremely powerful retailers. As it more. We have seen the results of the FSA’s stands, however, it is likely that fines for anti-competitive regulation—and yesterday, its investigation over a practices are even further away than 2015, given the number of years into Barclays—but it is a fair charge hurdles that would have to be gone through based on that the banks should perhaps have been regulated Schedule 3. better. It is a fair charge that the energy companies are not regulated sufficiently and that we need a fairer 3.45 pm deal for consumers of energy. It is a fair charge that I will draw a footballing analogy, because I am a bit the Press Complaints Commission is a toothless of a fan. Let us say that on Sunday evening in the final beast and has not been able to regulate the media of the European Championships, Germany is facing sufficiently. We can see the perils of weak regulation Spain. There are 85 minutes on the clock and Podolski on our news agenda every single day at the moment. is bearing down on goal. He is cynically hacked down If we are going to set up a brand new regulator, I inside the box as he goes through. Clearly, the defender would put it to the Committee that we need to give is about to get the early bath—but hang on. Much like that person the power from day one, with all of the the adjudicator, the referee’s final deterrent or punishment, tools in the box—and a power to fine is fundamental. the red card, is outside the stadium and back at the I hope that the Government are listening to voices referee’s hotel. It is not much good then for him to try from all Benches, including the Lords Spiritual in this to take effective action if he has got to get in his car, case, and will be persuaded to make the power to fine drive for a couple of hours, pick up the card and get available to the adjudicator from day one. back to the stadium—by which time the Spanish have of course gone on to claim the cup and we all have our Viscount Eccles: Before my noble friend replies, collective disappointment. By not placing the power perhaps I may just say that whatever my view of the to fine into this Bill, that is precisely what the Government proper fate for Clause 9, and however the Bill turns are doing. The red card will indeed be available to the out, I think that the message sent out by these debates adjudicator, but it will not be in their breast pocket to an industry attempting to provide the best possible where it can be issued fast and effectively on the service to the public is a very important one. I should offender as necessary. like to say two more things. On the production of We believe that it is of the utmost importance that milk, it is a problem. God gave dairy farmers different the adjudicator can truly tackle the problems. In order natural resources. Some dairy farmers need one leg to do so, they must have the power to fine those shorter than the other; some do not have to have that retailers who flout the rules. That will be the most disadvantage. The production of milk in this country effective deterrent and it is what this amendment has nevertheless been remarkably stable over the past proposes. Why are the Government not willing to five years. There has been no decline. In other markets listen to the Business, Innovation and Skills and the farmers in general are doing rather well. For example, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Select Committees? rapeseed is extremely successful at the moment and In its report on the Bill, the BIS committee said that so is the production of beef. Dairy products as a the power to fine, whole do not provide an adequate argument. Finally, “would allow the Adjudicator’s effectiveness to be evaluated on I think that there has been just one or two references the basis that a full spectrum of remedies was available from the in this debate to the costs of all this—the noble Lord, start”. Lord Browne, made some reference to cost—and The question is of course raised as to whether there has been absolutely no reference to who ends up naming and shaming will be sufficient. In answering paying. GC 195 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 196

Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, the question of financial achieving this change of culture. On the other hand, penalties has been one of the most hotly debated the introduction of fines from the outset would be far throughout the development of this policy. As the BIS more likely to bring about an antagonistic relationship Select Committee acknowledged at pre-legislative scrutiny, with heavy penalties imposed and retailers appealing the point is finely balanced. The Government believe every decision. that the remedies already provided—to recommend The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked whether it is changes and compel the offending retailer to publish right to hand all the cards to the adjudicator now information about the breach of the code—will be without the benefit of experience as to whether they sufficient and will provide a more proportionate means are all needed. I respect that there are strongly held of enforcement. In a highly competitive market, these views on this issue. However, I believe that introducing powers, in particular the ability to name and shame the Bill as it stands will bring about the best result for large supermarkets, will be effective in enforcing the suppliers. If fines prove necessary they can be quickly code. If naming and shaming had ceased to be news introduced, and I will be happy to discuss the mechanisms there would be a good argument that it was inadequate, for doing so in a future grouping when we consider but it is news. Big supermarkets competing with each Schedule 3. I do not think that it would benefit the other will not wish to see themselves named and Committee to deal with those questions now. I therefore shamed in front of their competitors who would be simply ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the only too delighted. amendment. Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, the very existence of the reserve power to fine will contribute strongly to Lord Knight of Weymouth: I am grateful to the ensuring compliance with the groceries code. Large Minister. With respect, although I understand that we retailers will be conscious that there is the prospect of will come on to discuss Amendments 50 and 51 to the swift introduction of financial penalties if there is Schedule 3, when the terms will be quickly and swiftly evidence of significant non-compliance with the groceries explained, perhaps the Minister could say—just to code and the existing regime seems not to be sufficiently help us in the context of this debate—how many effective. months she thinks it will take to go through the processes in Schedule 3. Lord Knight of Weymouth: I am grateful to the Minister. She uses the word “swift”. How long does she think it would take? Baroness Wilcox: How do the Government plan to streamline the process of introducing the fines? Is that what the noble Lord is asking? I cannot give a definitive Baroness Wilcox: I am so sorry. Did you say that I answer now as we need to discuss it in more detail was speaking too swiftly? before the next stage of the Bill. That would be the right way to do it, if the noble Lord does not mind. I Lord Knight of Weymouth: The Minister used the can give one more answer, which I think is to the word “swift” in her response just now. I would be question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Browne. The grateful if she could indicate how long she thinks it Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee will take. ruled that the procedures were appropriate and the Secretary of State can regularly be held to account at Baroness Wilcox: It is a very good question but I departmental Questions if he does not introduce am not sure that I have an answer—but I will come the fines when Parliament considers them necessary. to it. That partly answers the noble Lord’s question. If the noble Lord, Lord Knight, can wait until we consider As I was saying, the very existence of the reserve Schedule 3, all will be revealed. I ask the noble Baroness power to fine will contribute strongly to ensuring to withdraw the amendment. compliance with the groceries code. Large retailers will be conscious that there is the prospect of the swift introduction of financial penalties if there is evidence Baroness Randerson: My Lords, I thank the Minister of significant non-compliance with the groceries code for her detailed response. I also thank noble Lords and the existing regime seems not to be sufficiently who have spoken in this short debate in support of the effective. Clearly all large retailers will prefer to avoid amendments. I especially thank my noble friend Lady such penalties being introduced. In answer to a question Byford for her very similar amendment aimed at the asked by my noble friend Lady Byford, we already same thing. However, I am afraid that I am not have a strong right of appeal to the court on the merits reassured so far. Perhaps the answer will come when against financial penalties. we get the definition of “swift” in the context of One of the final points concerned culture and the Schedule 3. I am not so far reassured that this process Bill’s intention. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop is not cumbersome. I retain the view that fines will of Wakefield mentioned the word culture and I was have an important deterrent effect and that that effect very pleased to hear it because that is really what much will be sharpened if the fines are ready to be levied of this is all about. We do not want to punish retailers, rather than subject to the approval of the Secretary of as that does not really help suppliers or consumers. We State. want to bring about a culture change to ensure that The noble Lord, Lord Browne, made an important the code is consistently followed. An adjudicator exercising point. He said that the Bill does not give Parliament a proportionate powers provided that the strong fining role if the Secretary of State holds the view that there powers are there in reserve has the best chance of should not be financial penalties although Parliament’s GC 197 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 198 will is that there should be financial penalties—in status quo. The supermarkets wanted a sustainable other words, if the adjudicator’s report shows that the supply chain but the Office of Fair Trading, with its provision is not working as the Government optimistically primary concern focused on prices to the consumer, believe that it will. The noble Lord, Lord Knight, pointed fined the supermarkets, with the proceeds going to the out that the practical implication of Schedule 3 is that Exchequer. That took further resources out of the fines will be levied in 2015 at the earliest. The Minister supply chain, which brought it great alarm, and many may well contradict that, but I would be very concerned in the dairy industry thought that this was unfair and if that were the case. counterproductive. I will not comment further, as I understand that 4pm this case may yet be unresolved. However, the proceeds I hope that the Government will look at this again. of fines levied on supermarkets for anti-competitive There has been Select Committee support for fines. To behaviour in a supply chain can be seen, in many put it this way, I believe that fines undoubtedly have a regards, as different from those for most other wrong- deterrent effect. If those fines are in the back pocket of doing. The Consolidated Fund helps taxpayers, not the adjudicator, ready to be produced, that deterrent consumers. The complainants insist on anonymity. effect will be quicker and stronger than if the retailers Rather than take money out of the grocery trade, believe that the Secretary of State will be asked to surely we could be more imaginative. introduce fines only in the case of an overwhelming We have doubts about whether the Government failure of the system. We could, of course, have a ever intend the adjudicator to levy a fine. If, on reflection, Secretary of State who set his or her mind against the Government find their nerve and agree that the fines whatever the evidence, because the Bill does not adjudicator’s powers need to have teeth, the industry require it. I believe that imminent fines would be much may be looking at significant sums of money if the more of a deterrent and would change culture, which level of fines is to have some meaning to supermarkets is a key point. We are talking about changing culture, with multi-million pound turnovers. The proportionality as the Minister said earlier. I believe that fines will help of fines to the offence should also be taken into to change the culture. I thank the Minister for her account. Have the Government done any thinking on answer and beg leave to withdraw my amendment. this? Our amendment offers scope to undertake more positive action. Amendment 45 withdrawn. In early February, the House debated the report of Sub-Committee D of the European Union Committee, Baroness Byford: My Lords, I think that I have an Innovation in EU Agriculture. The report’s main conclusion old Marshalled List. The debate on Schedule 3 stand was that the UK must show leadership within the EU part is coming later, is it not? in order to develop a strategic approach to food production. The CAP budget should be rebalanced to The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Brougham increase allocation to research and innovation. All and Vaux): Yes. sides of the House, including the Government, welcomed the report. We have a wonderful opportunity to increase Amendments 46 to 47A not moved. innovation in our groceries supply chain with proceeds from fines. “Innovation” includes all aspects of development in farming and the supply chain, Lord De Mauley: My Lords, perhaps I may suggest technological development, product development, and that this would be an appropriate moment to break for marketing. The amendment at this stage does not seek 10 minutes, until 4.12 pm. to name a specific recipient, but rather to seek agreement to this idea. 4.02 pm Much of the innovation in farming originates in the Sitting suspended. supply industries that provide farming inputs: genetics of crops and animals, plant protection, animal health products and treatments, plant and machinery, and 4.12 pm a range of expert services for financial, technical, environmental and marketing purposes. The BBSRC— Amendment 48 Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council—and the Technology Strategy Board urgently Moved by Lord Grantchester need to reposition UK agriculture at the forefront of 48: Clause 9, page 3, line 33, leave out “the Consolidated technological advance. As an alternative, we have the Fund” and insert “a fund, the proceeds of which are to be used to Agricultural and Horticultural Development Board, support innovation in the grocery market supply chain” as well as sector centres of excellence such as the dairy innovation centre. Lord Grantchester: My Lords, the issue of proceeds The noble Lord, Lord Knight, received only today of fines has become prominent since last year, when a letter from the Minister, dated 29 May, following our the Office of Fair Trading fined certain supermarkets debate at Second Reading. In the letter, which the for raising their prices in 2003 in response to a concerted noble Lord has shared with me, the Minister mentions push-up on prices from dairy suppliers through their where money should go. I quote: processors. Dairy farmers were responding to very low “There is … a risk that if the funds were earmarked for returns. The supply chain was being receptive and funding groceries supply chain initiatives this could lead to lobbying wished to respond without disturbing the competitive or even litigation over who the most suitable recipient was”. GC 199 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 200

[LORD GRANTCHESTER] require whether we like it or not—and it is not a I am not sure whether we need at this stage to pleasant word—coercion. That is at the heart of much specify in the Bill where precisely the money should of what we are saying here. I do not know enough go—the area is surely sufficient. Could that not be about the latest statistics to be able to respond to what included as an amendment to secondary legislation the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles said a few moments under Schedule 3? Other examples do not seem to ago, but, certainly, in our part of the world dairy have caused a problem. For example, the regional farms are still closing and, certainly, an analysis of the growth fund is quite able to make awards without past 10 years would show that the capacity for milk challenge. We have mentioned this idea to stakeholders production has reduced. I do not know what the in the industry and have received encouragement to figures are for importing milk, but I think they have explore this option with the Minister. gone up significantly over these years. The Groceries Supply Code of Practice was needed All these things lead us back to innovation, which precisely because anti-competitive behaviour stifled seems to be a key word to use. It is a positive word. It innovation. What better way to promote innovation in goes back to changing cultures and is not about punishing the supply chain than by using the money raised in people. It is about trying to find a proper balance fines from such behaviour to undertake this work? It within the market, so that suppliers and retailers are would be the best way to provide redress to suppliers, doing something which has a synthesising effect: they who must be assured of confidentiality if they are to are working together. Therefore, I hope very much come forward without fear of reprisal. It is a pro-growth that some sort of response will come from the Government measure; pro-supplier and pro-consumer: a win-win-win. at this stage. If it does not, I fear that these same I beg to move. questions will be asked on Report. I would gently support this pair of amendments, but in the end they Lord Teverson: My Lords, I shall speak to my push us back to the same issues that we have been Amendment 49. There is an opportunity here, as the looking at. If we do not face those issues, we shall still noble Lord, Lord Grantchester has said, to be a little end up in a situation where we do not alter the present more innovative. I have certainly put down one suggestion culture. in my own amendment, though I am not saying that it is exactly the right way to go. At this stage, we are Viscount Eccles: Before the right reverend Prelate talking about the principle. sits down, can I ask him whether he believes that I know that the Government are often concerned coercion is the only way to change culture? about what they would see as creeping hypothecation, and that fines should generally go into the Consolidated The Lord Bishop of Wakefield: No. It depends on Fund. However, I was interested to read the Statement what you mean by “coercion”, which can mean something today from my right honourable friend the Chancellor very unpleasant indeed. It does mean that people will of the Exchequer about the Barclays crisis, where he not necessarily change the way that they operate simply stated that fines paid to the FSA are used to reduce the because we ask them to be nicer. That is the point. We annual levy on other financial institutions. We have an know that, otherwise we would not have produced the example there of where such fines do not go into the sort of legislation that we are debating today. Even if Consolidated Fund, as pointed out very conveniently we do not go down some of the roads that we have by the Chancellor. If anyone knows about these Treasury been debating, the whole Bill seems imply that the issues, it is probably him—we hope, at least. adjudicator must have some powers by which the The Chancellor goes on to say that he wants to present situation is changed. How you want to use the change that, and that proceeds of fines should go back word “coercion” is another matter. I would not want it into the Consolidated Fund. The reason that he is iffy to be overpressed. After all, the worst form of coercion about that system is that the money goes back to the always leads to war and that is not what we are talking financial sector. Here, we are not suggesting that it about—we are talking about precisely the opposite—but should go back to the rest of the retail sector; we are it will need firmness and robustness. suggesting it should go to the people whom this Bill is trying to protect and promote—that is, the supply Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, the amendments being chain. There is an opportunity here for innovation, for discussed here are very interesting. However, in considering goodwill and for common sense. I do not think that it them it is important to remember the purpose of the will be the end of the Treasury trying to meet its financial penalties. The financial penalties in this context, targets in reducing the public debt. It will not be that if they are imposed, are supposed to be punitive rather significant, but it will be important to the industry. than restitutory or to fund any particular activity. The amendments of my noble friends Lord Teverson The Lord Bishop of Wakefield: My Lords, I need to and Lord Razzall raise two difficulties with regard to leave fairly soon, so I want to add something about paying any of the proceeds to a supplier. First and this particular suggestion. I want to address also a most fundamentally, an investigation does not determine broader point, since this is tied into the whole issue of the liability of a retailer with respect to any individual financial penalties. supplier. Given this fact, it would be inappropriate to I was grateful to the Minister for her comment pay all or part of the fine to the supplier. Any supplier about changing culture. This is another small way in who did wish to reclaim damages from a retailer which the culture might be changed. But the crucial would be able to do so using the arbitration provision issue we need to grasp is that changing any culture will in Clause 2. 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The second reason is linked to the climate of fear. One of the key drivers of this Bill is the need to Amendment 50 address this problem. One of the principal reasons for investigations, as they are set out in the Bill, is to allow Moved by Lord Knight of Weymouth suppliers to complain in confidence to the adjudicator, 50: Schedule 3, page 15, line 4, leave out from “penalties” to who can then carry out an independent investigation. end of line 5 If an adjudicator began making payments to individual suppliers, it would become obvious who had complained and open up those suppliers to potential retribution Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, if I am from a retailer. following correctly where we have got to, I am moving Amendment 50, which is in my name, and speaking to I turn to the amendments of the noble Lords, Lord Amendments 51, 63 and 64. These are all amendments Knight of Weymouth and Lord Grantchester. Given to Schedule 3 or Clause 12 and are to try to streamline that financial penalties are a civil sanction, it would the process, should we be unsuccessful in persuading be inappropriate for financial penalties to be paid to the Government to have powers to fine from day one. a supplier or to a third party which did work that In the exchange that we had on earlier amendments I supported the groceries sector. In accordance with the got the impression from the Minister that she may be standard principles of managing public money, financial minded to concede a little on this, so I will be extremely penalties are therefore to be paid to the Consolidated brief to give her maximum time to elucidate on whatever Fund. concession she may or may not have available. I remind the Committee that my understanding of Lord Knight of Weymouth: I have a quick question. how things stand is that the adjudicator would be If the proceeds of funds were transferred, let us say, to established and would operate without fines. They the regional growth fund for it to distribute, would would then perhaps do some investigations and find that be in order? that they are not really having much of an effect with naming and shaming, so would recommend to the Baroness Wilcox: I think not; I shall go back again. Secretary of State that the powers to fine would be Given that financial penalties are a civil sanction, it useful to him or her. The Secretary of State would would be inappropriate for financial penalties to be then make an order under Clause 9 but would have to paid to a supplier or to a third party which did work consult a variety of people on whether to make such that supported the groceries sector. I must refer back an order, as set out in paragraph 6 of Schedule 3. The to the standard procedures for managing public money. order would then be published and we would have the Standard practice for such penalties is that they are time taken by Parliament to consider it. Eventually, it paid into the Consolidated Fund. This is in accordance would be passed—at which point, the adjudicator has with common practice elsewhere in competition regulation. to issue guidance as to how he or she would then use Fines imposed by the Office of Fair Trading are also the financial penalties and consult on that guidance. paid into the Consolidated Fund. At the end of all that, the adjudicator would be able to use those powers to fine. In my judgment, that would Lord Knight of Weymouth: The FSA? take at least a couple of years, probably more, which is why I mentioned 2015 earlier. I am delighted, however, Baroness Wilcox: I hope that my answer satisfies that the Minister is about to tell us that it is going to be the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. I ask him, therefore, a lot better. to withdraw his amendment. Baroness Randerson: My Lords, I want to refer to Lord Grantchester: I thank the noble Baroness for Amendment 52 in my name. I will also be brief, as I her words and I will read very carefully through Hansard. am sure noble Lords will be relieved to hear. My We will confer and no doubt bring the amendment amendment would simply remove paragraph 6 from back, perhaps by exploring it in another way, because Schedule 3. It fits neatly with my previous amendment, the supply chain is rather keen that such an opportunity to which I spoke, because it removes the cumbersome is made available. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. nature of the consultation. Regarding the list of people to be consulted, in my experience with legislation the Amendment 48 withdrawn. moment that you start being as precise as this is, the very next year it is out of date. Then you have to Amendment 49 not moved. change the list by secondary legislation or amendments, and so on. It is also a strange list because it starts by Clause 9 agreed. being very precise and then goes on in very general terms: 4.30 pm “one or more persons appearing to the Secretary of State to represent the interests of suppliers”. Schedule3:Orderconferring power to impose There is the same in relation to consumers and then, financial penalties finally, The Deputy Chairman of Committees: In this group, “(g) any other person the Secretary of State thinks appropriate”. if Amendment 51 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Why not just have general consultation and leave who 52 to 54 inclusive and if Amendment 52 is agreed to, I is consulted to the common sense of the Secretary of cannot call Amendments 53 or 54 due to pre-emption. State? Why not move to a much swifter process than GC 203 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 204

[BARONESS RANDERSON] The noble Lords, Lord Knight and Lord Grantchester, this cumbersome list indicates? I urge the Minister to have put forward two amendments, both requiring take this opportunity to think again about this aspect draft guidance on financial penalties to be published of the Bill. within a year of the adjudicator being introduced. These amendments are identical except that one requires Lord Knight of Weymouth: I apologise to the consultation and one does not. I will therefore address Committee. I should have set out what we are proposing the principle of both together. as the streamlining. In essence, we are suggesting in The publication of guidance is intended to ensure Amendments 63 and 64 that the adjudicator could that those dealing with the adjudicator have a proper publish straight away the draft guidance about how understanding of how it will act and of what is expected they might use the financial penalties, so that we at of them. Draft guidance on a power that the adjudicator least remove that stage in the process. I am looking does not have would not provide such clarity. Rather, forward to hearing what is said. we need to find a way to streamline the production of guidance if it is necessary, rather than producing it in advance. Viscount Eccles: Will the Minister make clear whether I can answer two questions. To the noble Viscount, the consultation would necessarily include a 12-week Lord Eccles, yes, the consultation will be carried out in period in which anyone who wanted to put in the usual way. I hope that that is reassuring. To the representations could do so? That is ordinary practice noble Lord, Lord Browne, the reason for not prescribing for the processing of a statutory instrument. the maximum fine in the Bill is that it is more appropriate that such a maximum be informed by experience—for Lord Browne of Ladyton: It would be helpful to the example, how much retailers may be gaining from Committee if the Minister were able to indicate the non-compliance. That experience can be gained only scale of fines that the Government have in mind if once the adjudicator is operational. Should the Secretary these financial penalties were ever activated. I cannot of State make an order to introduce fines, that order imagine that we have got this far without the Government must specify the maximum penalty that may be imposed having some idea of what the scale of those fines is or how it is to be calculated. likely to be. If we do not know, we are significantly I would like to discuss those points in more detail disadvantaged in our debates about what this power with the noble Lords who proposed the amendments masks, because it masks quite a lot from what I can see before the next stage of the Bill, and the Government in the schedule. will carefully consider whether we want to bring back an amendment on the subject. With that, I ask the Viscount Eccles: I fully agree with that. What industry noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. needs is certainty. What it cannot live with is uncertainty. It needs to have as many of the factors that are going Lord Knight of Weymouth: I am most grateful to the to influence what it does and the way it does it as noble Baroness for that commitment to discuss and the settled as possible. Uncertainty is the enemy of good potential commitment—if a potential commitment is business. possible—to a government amendment. Although I am disappointed by some things that she said, I will not pick up on those but quit while I am ahead, even if Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, as has been mentioned, it is only by a nose. I look forward to exploring with I listened very carefully at Second Reading when the her how to make this a swift process, in common with subject of Schedule 3 was discussed. I know that many her speaking note earlier. I therefore beg leave to noble Lords feel that the process set out there is too withdraw the amendment. clunky—I think that was the word that was used—and bureaucratic, and that it should be simpler and quicker. Amendment 50 withdrawn. I assure the Committee that it was not the intention of the Government to introduce a clunky process, so this Amendments 51 to 53 not moved. is something we are willing to look at, and if it is clunky we will need to amend it. Amendment 54 However, while the Government are willing to consider Moved by Baroness Wilcox amendments in this area, I feel that those that have 54: Schedule 3, page 15, line 18, leave out “large retailers” and been laid today go a bit too far. In particular, the insert “retailers mentioned in Article 4(1)(a) and (b) of the Government believe that financial penalties should be Groceries Supply Order” available only if the other powers are inadequate. After all, if the other powers are adequate, why do we Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I shall set out the need fines? We should not seek to punish the supermarkets reasoning behind the amendment. As well as moving for the sake of it, given the strong contribution that Amendment 54, I shall speak to government they make to the UK economy and to employment. Amendments 91, 109, 113, 115 to 117, 119, 120 and Similarly, I feel that stripping out consultation 123 as well, as they are all establishing the same altogether is not appropriate for a significant measure. principle. Evidence is important and consultation takes only The adjudicator is intended to uphold the groceries three months. I believe it would be more appropriate code, which applies to those retailers specifically named to look to streamline and simplify that consultation in the groceries supply order. The code also applies to process rather than eliminating it altogether. their subsidiaries, as Article 4(4) of the groceries supply GC 205 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 206 order provides that each designated retailer will procure Clause 10 : Recovery of investigation costs that its subsidiaries comply with the order. That means in particular that subsidiaries that deal with suppliers Debate on whether Clause 10 should stand part of the should incorporate the code into their supply agreements Bill. and then comply with it. The Government’s policy has always been that that Viscount Eccles: My Lords, perhaps unsurprisingly, the adjudicator’s functions should apply to whichever Clause 10 causes me quite a lot of concern. We are companies in the retailer groups enter supply agreements debating the anticompetitive effect of imposing unexpected and are bound by the code. However, since the Bill’s costs on suppliers. Now, in this clause, we will impose publication, we have realised that it is drafted in a way unexpected costs on retailers, so Parliament is doing that technically would not allow the adjudicator to something that the Competition Commission considers investigate subsidiaries or deal with any breaches of to be anticompetitive. We are doing this because of a the code by subsidiaries. The amendment will correct number of factors. As I understand it, it is not the that anomaly. intention that the adjudicator should mount an The main change is simply to include subsidiaries investigation when a supplier has lodged a complaint in the definition of “large retailer” in Clause 22. The against a retailer. That matter will go its normal other changes are to ensure that a more limited course under the code of practice. The complaints that definition—that is, parent companies only—still applies trigger investigations come either anonymously or from in certain clauses. In particular, when specifying which a trade association. Of course, there are provisions in companies have to pay the levy and which would have the Bill for people to agree that they can be named, but to be consulted, it would not make sense to include in general it might well be that they do not. subsidiaries. I hope that noble Lords will agree that I have heard it said that one investigation that this amendment is technical, intended to deliver the might take place and would be, as it were, between a policy as originally envisaged rather than to extend it, dispute between a supplier and a retailer, and a full-scale and will be able to give it their support. I beg to move. Office of Fair Trading/Competition Commission inquiry, is an inquiry into pig meat. I am not quite sure where I Amendment 54 agreed. heard that but it might have been at Second Reading Debate on whether Schedule 3 should be agreed. or somewhere. I think that it was said at the time that if there were an investigation into some alleged breaches Baroness Byford: My Lords, I think I am at the of the code of practice in relation to pig meat, then it right place. I gave notice that we intend to oppose might be sensible for the adjudicator to bring in other the Question that Schedule 3 be the Third Schedule to forms of meat—that might be lamb or beef. If that the Bill. All of us in the Room have debated this were to happen, the next question is how many suppliers matter very fully this afternoon, and I do not propose and retailers he would bring into the investigation, to go through it again. I have also heard the response and how far back up the supply chain he would go. from the Minister that she wished to take it away and My understanding is that the adjudicator is free to do think about it. I want it recorded that, at the moment, whatever he or she considers is the best way to proceed. we are looking to have some alterations to the schedule Eventually, a report will come out that, of course, as it currently stands. I do not know if the Minister respects anonymity. The adjudicator now sends out a wanted to respond but if she could clarify the fact that series of bills, not necessarily just to an individual she will take this away and think about it, I would retailer, as the clause specifies, but possibly to three or withdraw my opposition. I hope I am correct. even 10 of them, whatever the number may be. Those retailers are then responsible for meeting the costs. 4.45 pm There is a requirement to specify the grounds, how Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, while the much is to be paid, and by when. The grounds must be Minister assesses whether there is a speaking note for quite tricky if anonymity in the supply chain is going the stand part debate on Schedule 3, and in addition to be preserved, so I do not think that they will be very to what we have already said, the other aspect of the detailed. Also, they might be quite historic in the sense schedule that I would like her to think about as she that if a really thorough investigation is undertaken ruminates on it is that at the moment it is entirely with into pig meat and other types of meat, it could easily the Secretary of State as to whether the Secretary of take around 18 months. There is an appeal process, State thinks that the adjudicator’s other powers are which is absolutely as it should be, but it is quite inadequate. Select Committees and other parliamentarians difficult to appeal unless you are provided with information should have some voice within that. That is something about how the costs were reached in the first place. I else that she might want to think about. worry about this clause and I am looking for guidance. I want to make one other point which is similar to Baroness Wilcox: We have already discussed the something I said earlier. This kind of clause attempts introduction of fines in detail and I made a commitment to portray what is happening as if no one is suffering. to discuss that in more detail. The consumer is not paying, the taxpayer is not paying, but the supermarkets are paying—and of course they Baroness Byford: I am very grateful to the Minister can afford to do so. It is a populist move. The trouble for that reply. In those circumstances, I withdraw my is that if the supermarkets pay and their net margins opposition. are, as is the case for the Co-op, 2.8%, they will pass the costs on by increasing their prices. They do not Schedule 3, as amended, agreed. have much of an alternative because they need to GC 207 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 208

[VISCOUNT ECCLES] in that market. That sector argues very strongly that make a return on capital in order to keep on refurbishing there is strong competition in that market, so it does their stores and opening new ones, so they do not have not affect price. That is fundamental capitalist economics. many options. I would ask this: where is the right place If there is a problem, it is because there is insufficient for these costs to fall? My answer to that is that the less competition in the grocery market. Frankly, if that is regressive place would be the taxpayer. I do not think the case, the remedy is not here, but is clearly somewhere that these costs should be passed on to the supermarkets— else altogether—in the Competition Commission or whatever follows it following any legislation this year. Lord Knight of Weymouth: I promised myself that I As I said at Second Reading, I am a great advocate would not intervene on the noble Viscount, but he has of multiple retailers. They have brought a great deal of been speaking for about five minutes. Is he aware that benefit to this country, although there may be downsides Tesco, as the largest of the retailers in this country, as well. It is clear that if people cause the costs of an will have made, in the time that he has been talking, a investigation, it should take responsibility for them. profit of around £22,500? Perhaps Tesco could afford That is absolutely the right way to do it, and the clause to pay these costs out of some of its profits. reflects that. If you believe that fines will put up costs, you have to go to something other than fines. What do Viscount Eccles: It is certainly true that Tesco has a you go to? I do not think you go back to taxpayers. higher margin than the Co-op. Its net margin before That is impossible. You would have to go back to an tax is around 5%. It also just happens that its margin FSA-type system where you have approved people in the UK is slightly lower than its average margin and you disqualify them from being in the grocery because it achieves somewhat better margins abroad. trade, but there is no way that that would work. The size of Tesco’s profits is, in my view, irrelevant. Otherwise, I suppose you put them in jail under the Tesco is running a business that needs to achieve a criminal code, and that is clearly utterly inappropriate. margin on which it pays taxes, and it needs to make a I congratulate the Government on the clause. It is return on the capital employed, which of course is absolutely balanced and correct. very large. The Tesco store around the corner from where I live has just been completely reconfigured, perhaps I may say, to the advantage of the consumer. Lord Browne of Ladyton: I am pleased to follow the There are now more goods in the store and there is not noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I think his answer to the much room to move around. In fact, if you go there noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, was exactly correct about between 12 pm and 2 pm, you are mown down by the interaction of financial penalties and the truth of members of the Civil Service buying sandwiches for the noble Viscount’s arguments about the efficiency of lunch. Nevertheless, in its broadest sense, Tesco provides competition. We cannot make a decision about these an extremely good service to the public. Quoting issues based on an entirely arbitrary judgment about arbitrary sums of money does not recognise the reality what aspects of the finances of this business are relevant of life. It is to take a mythological position to say that to this decision and ignoring the others. The noble because people are making quite a lot of money, they Viscount is right about that, but he has to apply that can always afford to pay all the costs that are thrust logic to himself. He cannot say that it is all about upon them. margins and not about the scale and nature of these If Parliament wills that there should be an adjudicator, businesses and the amount of profit that they earn, that he or she should sit in the Office of Fair Trading, because they are relevant to this. conduct investigations, have a staff and cost money, That having been said, this is a very odd clause then rather than having an endless argument about given other parts of this legislation because, however how it defends invoices it has sent for investigation you dress this up, this is a financial penalty. I asked the costs, it would be much better if they were paid out of noble Baroness a simple question: what scale of financial taxes—out of the combined OFT and adjudicator penalty are the Government prepared to countenance budget—and do not fall on the elderly ladies with in relation to this legislation? The answer that I got their small shopping baskets whom I see in another was, “Without the experience of the adjudicator working, supermarket, called Sainsbury’s, who cannot afford to we have no idea”. The adjudicator has been given a pay more for what they are getting there. The taxpayer blank cheque without any experience. has broader shoulders than the consumer. I beg to move. 5pm Lord Teverson: I congratulate the Government on I have appealed consistently for the logic that is this clause. It is balanced, it puts the costs where they applied to one part of the Bill to be applied to the should be and acts as a break on frivolous claims and others. I agree that the costs of investigations that complaints. I do not understand the argument about it conclude that there has been a breach of the groceries putting up prices, because if that is the case it is code should be transferred, at least in part, to the legal because we have an oligopolistic market. The way that person who caused the problems in the first place—the markets work is that the price is set not by the cost of retailer who is legally responsible. That is a principle fines but by competition in the market and the crossing that we apply in many other areas of law without any of supply and demand. If we have competition in that offence to justice. People accept that. In civil litigation, market—that is a big “if” and I will come back to it in costs follow success. If you force someone to take you a minute—the individual firm takes a hit on the fine, to court and they win against you, you pay their but it cannot put up the price because there is competition expenses. That is the principle that should apply. GC 209 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 210

However, under Clauses 4 and 5, if an adjudicator beyond all belief. It is so complicated now, and I have concludes that there has been a breach of the groceries taken such an interest in this over the last couple of code, he will then look to the powers in Clause 6 and weeks, that I might go back into practising in the legal say, “In this case, the appropriate penalty is to require profession, because I can see opportunities here that information to be published but the nature of the were not there when I practised before, and niche breach is such that this expensive investigation would practices are places to make decent money now in the have been utterly unnecessary if the breach had not legal profession. continued. Therefore, I am passing some of that cost I do not support the argument that the noble Viscount back”. The retailer will not be able to appeal the part puts forward, because I think costs should fall. The of the decision that requires information to be published, nature and scale of what we are dealing with here is but will be able to appeal the part that awards costs such that if people cause this draconian step to have to against it. be taken, then they deserve all they get in my view. We will then have an inevitable judicial review of They should then have to go out and compete in the the adjudicator’s decision, which will go into how the market in order to make that money up in some other first part of that decision was made. In a separate way. process in the High Court or the Court of Session in There is another point about this clause that disturbs Scotland, the retailer will argue on appeal that it me, which is the part that the noble Lord, Lord should not have to pay costs. To establish whether the Teverson, likes and is designed to avoid vexatious adjudicator was justified in awarding the costs, the complaints. This is entirely the wrong way to go about judge will need to look into the merits of the case. The this. We should be saying that the adjudicator should judge will be disqualified from making a decision on stop vexatious complaints and not pursue them. I cannot the merits of the case, but the view that he has reached believe that we will be satisfied if we appoint somebody on those merits will inform his decision about the to be the adjudicator who has to resort, after an expenses, the costs. My noble friend Lord Borrie’s investigation, to imposing the costs of the investigation view is that that may well disqualify that person from on to a vexatious complainer. I want an adjudicator being called a judge. In any event, the judge will be who says, “I have looked at this, it is vexatious and I restricted. This seems unnecessarily complicated. Parts am not doing it”. of the Bill need to be rethought. Lord Teverson: I am not going to present the Minister’s Viscount Eccles: I am listening intently. Will the case, but it seems that the whole way that the early part noble Lord, Lord Browne, deal with the issue of of the legislation is written, which we dealt with in the anonymity? If my amendment were accepted, if the previous sitting, was that the adjudicator is under no adjudicator believed that one retailer had breached obligation to pursue anything that he or she feels is the code, I can see that it would still be complicated vexatious. That is inherent in the Bill, hence you then but not quite as complicated. If the adjudicator has a move on to this. I take the noble Lord’s point. duty to preserve anonymity, I cannot see how he could do so without widening the investigation in such a way Lord Browne of Ladyton: I am grateful to the noble that means it is not easy for people to identify who is Lord and I think he has got my point. It seems to me being investigated. At that point, the investigation that we ought to front-load the assessment of costs go up and the way of presenting them so that vexatiousness and not leave this bit at the end, as if they are eventually paid by whatever means becomes somehow it balances everything and makes it appear much more difficult. How would the noble Lord deal much better than it is. We should give the adjudicator with the dimension of anonymity? the power to say to people who bring complaints that are vexatious or without merit—and that will be revealed Lord Browne of Ladyton: I do not know if I am very quickly—“I am not taking these any further and grateful to the noble Viscount for asking me that that’s it”. People have to have confidence in this. The question. If I were standing where the noble Baroness decisions that we want the adjudicator to make in is, then I would feel I had to answer it. The only relation to this issue will be decisions of moment and answer I can give the noble Viscount is that I will think will have to be serious and important points. We do about it. However, I suggest that for the purposes of not want an adjudicator running around doing lots of the Committee, the fact that it is not easy to answer small investigations. We want one or two key investigations makes the point that he wishes to make. that go to the heart of the inequities in this market, There are all sorts of complexities about this legislation, which people want the Government and Parliament to many of which are necessary. I believe that anonymity address. The previous Government started to do that. at the heart of this process is necessary to build I am uncomfortable with this particular clause for a confidence in it and ensure that people come forward number of reasons but am grateful to it because it in this unequal bargaining position. The noble Viscount exposes the false logic of a lot of the rest of the himself said that the consequences of people being provisions of this Bill. exposed may be significant for them as suppliers to the retail industry. However, all of these complexities are Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I understand my noble going to keep the adjudicator awake at night in any friend Lord Eccles’s reluctance to see individual retailers event. This complex structure that we are creating—and or complainants having to pay the costs of investigations. we are all now willing participants in this if we do not However, I think this is justified in both cases and take speak out against it—is taking a reasonably good idea, this opportunity to explain why this clause should which could be delivered simply, and complicating it stand part of the Bill. GC 211 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 212

[BARONESS WILCOX] Clause 11: Advice In the case of retailers, they can be required to pay the costs of investigations only if the adjudicator is Amendment 55 not moved. satisfied that they have broken the code. In this situation, the need for investigation and enforcement follows from their actions. It would seem unfair on retailers Amendment 56 who have not breached the code to incur additional Moved by Lord Howard of Rising costs through a general levy when there is a party who clearly bears responsibility for the costs being incurred. 56: Clause 11, page 4, line 13, leave out “may” and insert I know from our debate at Second Reading that many “must” noble Lords feel strongly that the costs should fall on those who breach the code rather than those who do Lord Howard of Rising: The amendment would not, wherever possible. enable both retailers and suppliers to request advice This is not a financial penalty or a blank cheque; it and get it from the adjudicator. As expressed at the simply ensures that if a retailer breaches the code, the moment, it is voluntary for the adjudicator to give cost of the investigation can be borne by them, not by guidance. It would be most unfair to either side if they the other nine retailers. In the case of costs being were not in a position to get advice if they requested it. borne by complainants, the Bill is clear that they can We all know that there is an existing code, but there be expected to pay the costs of an investigation only if may be times when the adjudicator may take a slightly the adjudicator is satisfied that their complaint was different view; he may interpret something differently. vexatious or wholly without merit. That is a strong It would be quite extraordinary if the people who were test directed at clearly irresponsible complainants going to be bound by this, and bound by his decisions, rather than simply erroneous or weak ones. Without are not in a position to be able to ask him how they such a power, individuals might be motivated to make should go about their business. It is very difficult to complaints that they know to be false or completely abide by the rules if the person making and interpreting unjustified, wasting the adjudicator’s resources and those rules is not prepared to say what action should placing unfair burdens on the retailers it investigates. be taken in order to comply with them. This is especially Of course, the adjudicator should not pursue a case so during the initial period, when there may be differences that he or she knows to be vexatious, but that may not of opinion. I beg to move. be clear at the outset. That is simply a safeguard in case an investigation turns out to have been based on 5.15 pm vexatious complaints. Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I shall speak to Finally, I note that in each case, the clause says that Amendment 57 in this group, standing in my name. A the adjudicator may require a party to pay the costs of number of references have been made to the importance investigation. That is strictly discretionary. For instance, of the adjudicator as the driver of a changed culture. I if a breach was found in a retailer but it was understood have heard the adjudicator’s role referred to as a role to be a matter of simple error, the adjudicator might which the Government hope will develop into a role decide that it would be disproportionate to require it operated by the person in the country who knows the to pay all of the costs. I hope that helps the noble code best. Clearly, that person and that office is the Lord, and I support the Motion that the clause stand place that people should be able to look to for advice part of the Bill. and guidance, because it will be the repository of the best advice and guidance about the code. Viscount Eccles: My Lords, I start with a technical Consequently, I support the amendment of the question about the wording of the clause to which I noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, that the adjudicator am not looking for an immediate answer. It states that should be required to give advice to those people. As the adjudicator may, the Minister said, the expectation is that a culture of “require a large retailer to pay some or all of the costs of an changed practice will be created rather than a culture investigation”. of litigation. If the adjudicator is required to provide It is not self-evident that that means only the adjudicator’s the advice, that is an element of changing the culture. costs. Of course, a lot of the cost will fall on third As I have already said, at Second Reading the Minister parties, including the retailer, and there are bound to referred early on to the fact that anybody can make a be a lot of costs. My proposal that suspicion should be complaint to the adjudicator. In winding up the debate—it replaced with belief would go a long way to create is Column 764, for the purpose of the Official Report—she more certainty about the adjudicator’s ability to turn made reference to the importance of the public and to down not just vexatious complaints but complaints for their desire for this area of commerce to operate in a which there is too little evidence. It is my perception way that addressed their expectations but which was that when the Bill becomes law, a lot of cases will be also fair. brought for which the evidence will be sketchy, and the The public therefore have a role to play in this. They adjudicator will have to use his or her best judgment. can make a complaint; they are consumers of the If those considerations can be given some thought whole objective of improving the competition of this and we can have a more—I criticise myself here—coherent part of the economy. However, they are excluded from and consensual discussion at the next stage, I withdraw the list of people to whom the adjudicator can give my objection to the Motion. advice. It seems contradictory to encourage anybody, including any member of the public, to make a complaint Clause 10 agreed. but not give the adjudicator the statutory power to GC 213 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 214 give advice to the public. I have amended this, therefore, group of people who will be able to assist anyone who to include the public in the list of bodies. The noble comes. Looking at the adjudicator’s incidental powers, Baroness is right that the public will want to know and they may do anything that is calculated to facilitate the understand how this code operates. Without the vires carrying-out of their functions, or is conducive or or the powers, the adjudicator will not be able to give incidental to it. It is not for Ministers to interfere at them advice. The adjudicator ought to be able to do it. this stage with how the adjudicator decides to work. I think that that covers the noble Lord’s question. Viscount Eccles: I support both these amendments. Lord Browne of Ladyton: It does indeed, and I am Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, providing advice and very grateful to the Minister for her immediate response, guidance will be important in the adjudicator’s role of but she may want to compare that response with the promoting compliance with the groceries code. I one that she gave to my attempt to add the public to understand, therefore, why my noble friend Lord Howard those who can get advice. It seems that the answer now of Rising wishes to see a requirement on the adjudicator is not that there are two types of communication, one to provide advice and why the noble Lord, Lord appropriate to retailers or suppliers and another, which Browne of Ladyton, wishes such advice to be available we are supposed to find in Clause 12, appropriate to to the public as well as to retailers and suppliers. I the public. The answer is actually that the way in agree with the noble Lord, so it is important that the which the Bill has been drafted allows the adjudicator adjudicator clarifies certain issues around how he or to give advice to the public if he or she wishes to do so. she will work and indeed, how the public as well as It would therefore appear that my amendment is suppliers and retailers will have an interest in this. unnecessary and that all the other responses I have However, under Clause 12 the adjudicator has a just received, suggesting that it was inappropriate, is duty to provide guidance on how he or she will investigate not correct. and has powers to provide further guidance on any issue related to the code. This guidance will be published Lord Howard of Rising: I thank the Minister for her and available to all. It is therefore the most suitable reply, but there remains an essential difference. Under format for any obligatory communication by the Clause 12, the adjudicator chooses what he will give adjudicator and is the best way for the adjudicator to guidance on. Should there be a point on which he has deal with the public. Conversely, advice is more likely not given guidance and on which either the retailer or to be given on an individual basis to clarify specific the supplier would like guidance, it would be completely issues with retailers and suppliers. It is likely to be contrary to any form of natural justice if they could given where the adjudicator notices that certain retailers not get it. If the guidance under Clause 12 is so or suppliers do not have a clear understanding of the absolutely brilliant, nobody is going to ask him for it code. It is also likely to be given to retailers or suppliers under Clause 11. Should he make a mistake or omit who are not sure whether a specific practice that is something which he should have included, he has to be relevant to them is within the code. Advice is therefore made to give an answer. That is the fundamental suited to individual, potentially technical discussions point. of the code with those to whom the code is more The noble Baroness said that you have got to look directly relevant—suppliers and retailers. Any statements at the costs of all these things. As it stands, the of general principles can be made through the power adjudicator has an unlimited budget. I will return to in Clause 12 to provide guidance, and those statements this later in our deliberations on the Bill, but I have will be available to the public. seen no cap. The adjudicator can turn around and say On whether the provision of advice should be to the supermarkets, “Let’s have a bit more, mate”. mandatory, the adjudicator would normally be expected I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but I will to provide advice when it is requested. However, the come back to it later. adjudicator will have a limited budget and will need to prioritise their work accordingly.It is therefore appropriate Amendment 56 withdrawn. that they should have the freedom to choose whether in a particular instance giving advice is the best way of encouraging retailers to comply with the code. There Amendment 57 not moved. could also be circumstances when giving advice would be inappropriate; for example, due to a conflict of Clause 11 agreed. interest. I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments. Clause 12 : Guidance Lord Browne of Ladyton: Perhaps I may ask the Minister a relatively simple question. If a member of the public thinks that he or she is in possession of Amendments 58 to 60 not moved. knowledge that should support a complaint to the adjudicator, are they entitled to phone the adjudicator’s Amendment 61 office and ask for advice as to whether that is appropriate? If not, is it common sense? Moved by Viscount Eccles 61: Clause 12, page 4, line 20, after “investigations;” insert— Baroness Wilcox: I do not imagine that the adjudicator “(ba) the criteria that the Office of Fair Trading intends to will put up a barrier to people telephoning and asking adopt towards the content and timing of information to questions. I imagine that they will have with them a be published under section 8(2);” GC 215 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 216

Viscount Eccles: My Lords, I will be brief with this Concerning Clause 12(3)(b) in particular, not to require one. This is my substitute for the words that I wish to the adjudicator to give guidance on, see left out in Clause 8, which are, “steps that large retailers need to take … to comply with the … “specifying— Code”, (a) what information is to be published; seems an offence against natural justice. I apologise (b) how it must be published; and for breaking my long silence but of the many things (c) the time by which it must be published”. we have discussed, this is the one where I hope that my noble friend will listen to my noble friends Lord I suggested to the Committee that that was too prescriptive, Howard of Rising and Lord Eccles and the noble but I quite accept that retailers need to know how the Lord, Lord Browne, who is opposite. publishing of what has been described as naming and shaming information will take place. It would be much more appropriately included in guidance. That is why I Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, the guidance provided have suggested the addition to the subjects on which by the adjudicator will help ensure that all interested the adjudicator must publish guidance and the criteria parties have a proper understanding of what they can that the adjudicator—I have to amend my amendment, expect of the adjudicator. Several noble Lords have because I was still fighting for the Office of Fair brought forward amendments on what should be included Trading at the time— in the guidance or on how that guidance should be “intends to adopt towards the content and timing of information produced. to be published under section 8(2)”. With regard to the amendment moved by my noble I put that in because I am keen to remove as much of friend Lord Eccles, the adjudicator will already have what might be called the prescriptive, mandatory or to publish guidance on how he or she will decide antagonistic features of this Bill as possible, and to try which enforcement powers, if any, to use. The adjudicator and engender as much co-operation, discussion and will also have powers to provide more specific guidance agreement as we possibly can. on how exactly he or she will go about requiring a If we are going, finally, to depart from self-regulation retailer in breach of the code to publish information. for other forms of regulation at the same time as I am However, I do not believe that the adjudicator should supporting a Government who claim that they are a have to publish guidance on how he or she will approach deregulating Government, we should try to make sure the publication of information before such investigations that the very sensible code of practice is applied by can be started, especially as the approach to publication agreement and not coercion, if I may come back to might be dependent on what breach is discovered. We that word. This is just another small attempt to get must balance the need for retailers and suppliers to be into the Bill words which encourage co-operation rather informed of the principles under which the adjudicator than depending upon coercion. I beg to move. is working with the need for the adjudicator to be able to start working promptly. Lord Howard of Rising: My Lords, my amendment The noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, has tabled in this group is along the lines of my previous one, two amendments that I would like to address. The first such that the adjudicator “must” publish guidance. It is on the requirement for the adjudicator to publish seems absolutely inconceivable that he is not compelled guidance on a range of matters set out in Clause 12(3). to give guidance and to publish it. Imagine him refusing Here I note that the requirement to publish guidance to let retailers know what steps they have to take to in Clause 12(1) is focused on specific issues, and under comply with his code. Another point here is one of Clause 12(5) the requirement to publish information is natural justice. The adjudicator is paid by the retailers. given the context of a specific timetable. The adjudicator The least that he could do is to provide them with the should be required to publish guidance, and he or she information on how he is going to treat them; after all, has to. Clause 12(1) states: they are footing the bill. As I have said before, his “The Adjudicator must publish guidance about — interpretation may be different on these things. However, (a) the criteria that the Adjudicator intends to adopt in rather than waste the Committee’s time repeating the deciding whether to carry out investigations; arguments, I will leave it at that. (b) the practices and procedures that the Adjudicator intends to adopt in carrying out investigations; and 5.30 pm (c) the criteria that the Adjudicator intends to adopt in choosing Lord True: My Lords, having listened with great whether to use the enforcement powers and which ones”. interest to nearly two days of discussion on the Bill, it While other guidance is valuable, it is not clear what does not look as if I am going to be able to trouble the would be achieved by a general requirement to publish scorers during the rest of the day. I should declare that guidance on broad topics such as the application of I have no interest to declare in these matters. However, any provision of the code. Rather, these overarching I feel that the point made by my noble friend Lord topics are intended to indicate likely areas of guidance Howard of Rising and supported by the noble Lord, and ensure that the adjudicator can give guidance Lord Browne, is compelling. As the leader of a local when the need arises. authority, if I published a parking order and then did Regarding my noble friend’s second amendment, not publish guidance about what people had to do to guidance can relate to a wide range of the adjudicator’s comply with it, or if the authority did not put up activities and functions. It would be inappropriate to notices or signs approved by the Department for include a requirement to consult retailers without Transport, the authority would be taken to court very equivalent requirements to consult supplier representatives quickly and would be acting improperly and unfairly. and other interested parties, which would create further GC 217 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 218 bureaucracy, something that I am sure we would all only when it occurs to the adjudicator that there is an try to avoid. This change is not necessary, given that issue on the code, he should have to report every year the Bill already requires the adjudicator to consult any on the code’s effectiveness. That would be a more person whom he or she considers appropriate. I hope active stance and follows our concern that it should be that that is helpful to noble Lords and I ask my noble a living code that is thought about regularly to make friend to withdraw his amendment. sure that it is always fit for purpose. Amendment 82 reflects our wish that Parliament Viscount Eccles: My Lords, I am not quite sure how should have more of a role in respect of the adjudicator. to put this, but I think the Committee is being let Although we appreciate that the annual report, once down. Once again we are being told that we are given to the Secretary of State, would then be published starting from a zero base, that nobody knows anything and that Parliament would get a copy, it would be about the operation of the code and that the adjudicator more satisfactory for Parliament to be listed as one of will start with a blank sheet of paper. The code came the organisations to whom the annual report would be into effect on 4 February 2010, having been published submitted. in 2009. All 10 supermarkets have gone through the Finally, in support of Amendment 87C, we think procedures that it requires them to do. They have that the people who pay the levy to fund the adjudicator included it in their conditions of purchase and sale; should be able to see clearly what are the operating they have appointed compliance officers; and they costs. Whether they are paying a reasonable sum for have made two sets of annual reports to the Office of the running of the adjudicator should be transparent. Fair Trading. Disputes have been running in the past If Amendment 87C is accepted, so that the manner in 24 months and disputes have been settled. which the levy is calculated by the adjudicator is To say that there is no base of information that the regularly reviewed, that would provide the transparency Government can rely on in drafting the details of this that ensured that the adjudicator was not operating in Bill and that before deciding how guidance should be a frivolous fashion. On that basis, I hope that the given they have to wait for the adjudicator is indefensible. Minister is listening, as ever, and I beg to move. I will return to this on Report. I hope that before then there is some rethinking about the position under the code, instead of us being told time and time again that Baroness Randerson: My Lords, I shall speak to the it is as if the code did not exist. I beg leave to withdraw three amendments tabled in my name in this group, the amendment. Amendments 85A, 85B and 87C. I shall take Amendments 85A and 85B first. As the Bill stands, the Secretary of Amendment 61 withdrawn. State will review the adjudicator’s performance initially after two years and then every three years. The Amendment 62 to 73 not moved. amendments provide that that review should take place initially within a year and then annually. We Clause 12 agreed. believe that the proposed two-year review period is too long before we hear anything about the achievements of and progress made by the adjudicator, and that a period of three years between reviews is too long. Clause 13: Recommendations to Office of Fair If the adjudicator is doing well, retailers will change Trading their culture and behaviour, and three years is a long time with no judgment on how the adjudicator is Amendment 74 not moved. working. As I said earlier, it has taken a long time to get to this stage. It has taken six or seven years to get Clause 13 agreed. this far, so we need to know how the new system is working sooner than two years after the adjudicator Clause 14: Annual report has been established. I point out to noble Lords that, under the groceries code, retailers have to submit Amendments 75 to 77 not moved. compliance reports to the OFT within 10 weeks of the end of every working year, so why should not the adjudicator report to the Secretary of State or be Amendment 78 reviewed by him every year? Moved by Lord Knight of Weymouth I turn briefly to Amendment 87C. Clause 15(4) sets out the detail of what the review must cover. This 78: Clause 14, page 5, line 9, at end insert— amendment would add a new paragraph (c) that would “( ) The report must include an evaluation by the Adjudicator ensure that the Secretary of State considers both the of how well the code is working.” funding for the adjudicator and how the levy is calculated. This introduces what is in many ways a different issue. Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, in moving It concerns the equity of a levy that is to be established Amendment 78, in order to ease time a little, I shall on the basis that it will be set at a flat rate. This speak to Amendment 82 in the next group, and in amendment introduces the concept that the levy might support of Amendment 87C tabled by the noble Baroness, vary according to the amount of work done by the Lady Randerson, which I support very much. They adjudicator in respect of each of the supermarket are all in connection with the annual report in Clause 14. chains. In other words, those retailers who trouble the Amendment 78 proposes that instead of reporting adjudicator a great deal by generating a lot of work— GC 219 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 220

[BARONESS RANDERSON] Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, regarding the amendments because there are a lot of complaints about them—would tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Knight of Weymouth pay more than those retailers who generate hardly any and Lord Grantchester, the purpose of the annual complaints. Further, a flat-rate levy would not reflect report is to provide and publish a factual description the relative size of the different supermarket chains. of the adjudicator’s activities. This increases the We do not have time to do so today, but it would be adjudicator’s transparency to scrutiny and helps suppliers, interesting to look at the relative size of the 10 large retailers and other interested parties to understand the retailers. Although they are the 10 largest, the biggest adjudicator’s role and functions. The noble Lords have is significantly larger than the smallest of them. The suggested that the report should include an assessment flat-rate levy does not seem to reflect that. It will of how well the code is functioning. I understand from nurture a sense of unfairness among the retailers if previous debates and discussions that they are enthusiastic there is no movement from a flat rate to a levy that to ensure we have what they are calling a living code. reflects the amount of business that they have brought However, this amendment is not a suitable way to to the adjudicator—if I could put it that way. The provide for it. As I said before, the annual report as it Minister may give us some words of reassurance on stands is a simple description of the adjudicator’s this but, as a probing amendment, it is important to activities. Amendment 78 would make the writing of raise the issue this afternoon. the annual report a much greater strain on the adjudicator’s resources. More fundamentally, the adjudicator does not have responsibility for keeping the code under 5.45 pm review. That is a matter for the Office of Fair Trading, Lord Borrie: My Lords, I speak to Amendments 87A although the adjudicator has a statutory duty to and 87B in this group. They stand in the names of the recommend changes to the authorities where she or he noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and the right reverend considers such changes appropriate. Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield, who are unable to be With regard to the amendments tabled by the noble here so, as the third name, I am here to speak to the Lord, Lord Borrie, I fully agree that it is important amendments. that in this review the Secretary of State should consider As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, any factors that have prevented the adjudicator from Clause 15 deals with the supervision of the adjudicator effectively enforcing the code, and that the purpose of and his work and performance by the Secretary of the groceries code is to prevent the transfer of excessive State’s reviews. The times of the reviews were discussed risks and unexpected costs on to suppliers. However, I just a moment ago by the noble Baroness. I sympathise do not agree that it is necessary to set this out explicitly and agree with the points that she made. The amendments in the Bill. I believe that the existing provision, that the of the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, the right reverend Secretary of State must, Prelate and I are designed to link the Secretary of “assess how effective the Adjudicator has been in enforcing the … State’s reviews of the adjudicator’s work with the Code”, original objectives of the Competition Commission provides the Secretary of State with the appropriate for the code. One of the objectives of the groceries remit to carry out a thorough triennial review. This code was to stop the transfer by supermarkets to can include an assessment of any factors that have suppliers of excessive risks and unexpected costs. The hindered the effectiveness of the adjudicator. amendments would spell that out in the Bill. My noble friend Lady Randerson proposed another Amendment 87B is concerned with the level of the amendment requiring the Secretary of State to consider climate of fear among the supplier community and the funding of the adjudicator and, in particular, the would recognise it as a potential factor that might manner in which the levy is calculated. As the Secretary impinge upon the adjudicator’s ability to fulfil his or of State must give consent to any levy, an explicit her functions. In particular, it is possible that the requirement to consider this would be unnecessary. supplier climate of fear might be a reason for zero I will be happy to discuss my noble friend’s amendment action by the adjudicator—but that is not a reason to further when we address levy funding in the 30th group abolish the adjudicator. Rather, the adjudicator would of the amendments. In general we should avoid specifying need to improve his or her processes in the light of the areas for the Secretary of State to consider in his review supplier context. We have not yet come to Clause 16, of the adjudicator, unless setting them out in statute is which deals with the possibility of transferring clearly necessary. A long list of issues to consider in the adjudicator’s functions or even of abolishing the the review is more likely to be treated as exhaustive, adjudicator, but it is plain, as we shall see, that the whereas the current drafting makes it clear that the Secretary of State’s reviews of the adjudicator’s work Secretary of State is considering the adjudicator in may be grounds for activity on the part of the Secretary broadly defined terms. of State under Clause 16. Finally, my noble friends Lady Randerson, Lord The point of Amendments 87A and 87B is to Razzall and Lord Teverson have tabled two amendments, clarify the grounds on which the adjudicator might be which together would mean that the adjudicator was reviewed or criticised by the Secretary of State and to reviewed after each year. We of course believe that the make clear in the Bill that that there is an important adjudicator should face proper scrutiny from the link—which one wants to spell out because it is not Government and Parliament. However, this must be there at the moment—between the original objectives balanced with both the need for the adjudicator to be of the groceries code and the actual work of the independent and the practicalities of such frequent adjudicator, which is of course reviewed from time to reviews. The adjudicator is expected to undertake only time. a few reviews a year and to report on their work once GC 221 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 222 each year. This does not provide a very broad basis for the Secretary of State to consider how much the Amendment 91 adjudicator’s powers have been exercised and how effective the adjudicator has been in enforcing the Moved by Baroness Wilcox code. Therefore, it would be unlikely that each review 91: Clause 15, page 6, line 2, leave out “large retailers” and could make very clear or authoritative judgements. insert “retailers mentioned in Article 4(1)(a) and (b) of the Allowing three years will, we feel, provide a broader Groceries Supply Order” range of evidence to be considered. Annual review would also mean consultation in Amendment 91 agreed. each year of the adjudicator, the Competition Commission, the Office of Fair Trading, all 10 large Amendment 92 not moved. retailers, one or more supplier representatives, one or more consumer representatives and any other appropriate person. As well as providing a burden on them to Lord De Mauley: My Lords, noble Lords will appreciate respond, this would be likely to reduce the quality of that the target was to finish the Committee stage of each of these consultation responses, further weakening the Bill this evening. There have been discussions the scrutiny of the adjudicator. It is not customary to among the usual channels, taking into account the undertake reviews of independent office-holders so position of the staff of the House. The usual channels regularly, and introducing annual reviews in this case propose to continue debate on the Bill until 7 pm, with might bring into question the adjudicator’s independence the hope of completing the Committee stage. from the Government. One further amendment has been proposed by the Amendment 93 noble Lords, Lord Knight of Weymouth and Lord Moved by Viscount Eccles Grantchester, to the effect that a copy of the adjudicator’s annual report should be sent to Parliament. I set out in 93: Clause 15, page 6, line 18, at end insert “or a retailer” an earlier response to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, why I did not believe it would be appropriate to send a Viscount Eccles: My Lords, this is a small matter of copy of the report to the devolved Governments, as equity. Clause 15(4)(a) concerns information that may this is not a devolved matter. A copy going to Parliament, be considered when deciding whether to investigate. It however, could have merit. I emphasise that the adjudicator confines the adjudicator to a fairly narrow range of will already publish the report, so this would not be a people involved in the industry.My amendment proposes question of making additional information available to add, to the information provided by a supplier, the to Parliament but would simply emphasise that the words “or a retailer”. It seems perfectly possible that a adjudicator’s work should be open to parliamentary retailer will have information about the operation of scrutiny. the code and possible breaches of it, which means that I would like to give this matter further consideration, they would like to provide information. I think that both on the principle and, if this is appropriate, on they should have that opportunity in any event. I beg how precisely it is delivered—for instance, whether it to move. should be a matter of simply sending a copy to Parliament or if it would be more suitable to place a copy in the 6pm House Libraries or lay it before Parliament. I am therefore happy to discuss this matter further with the Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, I shall speak noble Lords concerned before the next stage of the to my Amendments 95 and 123A. The issue we are Bill. I hope that has gone some way towards answering raising is that, as the Bill is currently written, it would the questions in the amendments that were put down, appear that when the workings of the adjudicator are and I ask noble Lords to withdraw them. reviewed—this is specifically in relation to the ability of third parties such as trade associations to make representations and complaints to the adjudicator—and Lord Knight of Weymouth: I am relatively satisfied if the review decides that the arrangement is not with that response and am happy to beg leave to working well and wants to change it, all that the Bill withdraw the amendment. currently allows the Secretary of State to do is to completely remove the ability of third parties to complain Amendment 78 withdrawn. to the adjudicator. It is a very black and white position: either all third parties can complain or all third parties cannot complain. Amendments 79 to 84 not moved. These amendments seek to give the Secretary of State the ability by order to list specific third parties Clause 14 agreed. who would still be allowed to submit information to the adjudicator. Should irresponsible third parties abuse the right that the legislation gives them to submit Clause 15 : Review of Adjudicator and guidance from information to the adjudicator, the Secretary of State Secretary of State could restrict the number of third parties to those that behave responsibly. This would be a pragmatic way for the Secretary of State to operate should the review Amendments 85 to 90 not moved. disclose something that he is unhappy about. GC 223 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 224

[LORD KNIGHT OF WEYMOUTH] Clause 15(10) has been deliberately written to restrict Amendment 123A simply seeks that the affirmative the sources of information to those that are most resolution rather than the negative resolution is used likely to have information regarding a breach of the in order to give Parliament extra scrutiny if the Secretary code. This will ensure that trade associations and of State wants to limit the number of individuals other third parties have a clear incentive to act responsibly. permitted to submit information to the adjudicator. It would be invidious to put the Secretary of State in a I beg to move. position where he or she had to pick which third parties or classes of third party were responsible and Lord Teverson: My Lords, Amendment 94 is quite which were not, and such an amendment could lead to straightforward: it seeks to insert a new paragraph in the very lobbying and campaigning that we hope to proposed new Section 4A(1) which allows for the avoid. adjudicator to consider, Finally, the noble Lords, Lord Knight and Lord “information provided by a trade association”. Grantchester, have also proposed an amendment to Trade associations are important and should be involved Clause 23 that is relevant here. It would mean that in the structure of the Bill, and the amendment would Clause 15(10) required an affirmative resolution. involve them in this part of the work delineated by the Throughout the Bill we have striven to ensure that a Bill. It is as straightforward as that. suitable level of parliamentary scrutiny is provided for any orders. The Government believe that the negative procedure Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I am grateful to noble is suitable here as the content of the order is very Lords who have raised the important issue of what clearly defined in the Bill, and because an order can be any restrictions on the sources of information under made only as the result of a triennial review involving Clause 15(10) should involve. The Government hope widespread consultation. The Delegated Powers and believe that third parties such as trade associations Committee considered this order specifically and will provide information to the adjudicator in a responsible confirmed that it was satisfied with our reasons for and helpful way and that this clause will never need to this being a negative procedure. be activated. Nevertheless, it is important that we give proper scrutiny to the details of how the clause can be I hope that these answers to the amendments have activated and what it should include. been helpful. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. The clause as drafted provides the most suitable way to restrict information. The sources that would still be allowed to provide information are those identified Viscount Eccles: I beg leave to withdraw the as most suitable by the Government following their amendment. consideration of pre-legislative scrutiny by the Business, Innovation and Skills Select Committee. These have Amendment 93 withdrawn. been carefully considered as sources that could provide useful information without the risk of the adjudicator Amendments 94 and 95 not moved. being deluged with complex but essentially weak complaints. Clause 15, as amended, agreed. My noble friend Lord Eccles suggested that retailers should be included in the list of sources of information. Clause 16 : Transfer of Adjudicator functions and Clearly retailers will have relevant information about abolition etc whether a breach has occurred and this will be central to investigations. However, the place for this to be Amendment 96 not moved. heard is in investigations, where the adjudicator can seek relevant information without revealing details of Clause 16 agreed. complaints. The decision to start an investigation is based on complaints or other information giving Clause 17 agreed. reasonable grounds to suspect that the code has been breached, not on an attempt to weigh all the arguments. My noble friends Lord Razzall and Lord Teverson Clause 18 : Confidentiality suggest that trade associations should be added to the list. However, trade associations are the primary group Amendment 97 not moved. that this power to limit the sources of information is intended to address. The power has been introduced in Amendment 98 the light of concerns that trade associations might raise complex but unjustified complaints. This could Moved by Lord Browne of Ladyton put a strain on the adjudicator’s time and resources, as 98: Clause 18, page 7, line 23, after “Adjudicator” insert “, or well as unnecessary burdens on the retailers. the Deputy Adjudicator or any person acting on behalf of the The noble Lords, Lord Knight and Lord Grantchester, Adjudicator,” suggest that the Secretary of State should be able to specify sources through guidance. However, such an Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I do not think extension would be a more serious matter than is I shall detain the Committee for very long. I am suited for guidance, which the adjudicator must “take hopeful that the Minister will have a simple answer to account of” but which is not strictly binding. this particular problem. GC 225 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 226

The amendments are designed to do two things: be a public authority and will be bound to take the they would extend the obligation of confidentiality responsibilities under Clause 18 very seriously, as well beyond the adjudicator to his or her deputy and staff, as being bound to respect the human rights to privacy and would provide a criminal sanction for a breach of of the relevant parties. It is true that there is no the obligation of confidentiality. The arguments are sanction for breach expressed in Clause 18 but a comparatively simple. Clause 18, on a straightforward breach would be a breach of statutory duty by the reading, limits the obligation of confidentiality to the adjudicator and would in principle enable a person adjudicator. If that reading is correct then this is far who suffered from a breach to claim damages from the too narrow. The persons connected to the adjudicator adjudicator or to seek an injunction to prevent the should also be covered by the statutory provision, and disclosure if the person knew in advance. these include, at the very least, the deputy adjudicator I do not think that my noble friend Lord Eccles will and the adjudicator’s staff. be speaking to his amendments. The obligation of confidentiality in Clause 18, with the wording that has been adopted, can be argued to Viscount Eccles: I will not. be discretionary rather than mandatory, and the Baroness Wilcox: I therefore would ask the noble amendment deleting the word “may” and inserting the Lord, Lord Browne, to withdraw his amendment. word “must” clarifies that the obligation is mandatory. Amendments 102 and 103 are consequential amendments Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I am reassured on those two provisions. by the noble Baroness’s comprehensive response, and The obligation provided by Clause 18 must be now that her words are on the record, it will be very enforceable, and in my view the provision of a statutory clear that the requirement of confidentiality applies offence will ensure that the obligation is respected. not just to the adjudicator, as the Bill states, but to the I beg to move. deputy adjudicator and the staff. In making a plea for plain English, which is where we started our debate, I Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, the duty of the adjudicator wonder why we do not just say what we mean in to keep complainants’ identities confidential is central legislation, in order that we do not have to read to this Bill. The initial market investigation, consultation Hansard to find out that it applies to other people. and pre-legislative scrutiny all indicated that suppliers A few words here would not cost us that much. If would be reluctant to complain if they thought that “may not” can have as strong a construction as “must they would be identified, and noble Lords have made not” and the Government prefer “may not” when they the same point in the House. The protection of the mean “must not”, I am content with that as well. identity of parties to arbitration is likewise important. However, I still think that it would be better if we said The proposed amendments on confidentiality therefore what we meant rather than left it to what lawyers need careful consideration. understand of these things. I am impressed by the Minister’s confidence that in The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, proposed future this confidentiality will be respected. I have had a number of amendments with the clear aim of making the privilege to hold some quite significant offices in the requirement on the adjudicator to maintain government and I have discovered, sometimes to my confidentiality as tough as possible. I agree that this frustration, that where one expects confidentiality most needs to be a strong requirement. However, I believe is where one least gets it. We have a media industry that the Bill already achieves this. that substantially operates on the basis of leaks. These Two of the amendments in the name of the noble stories will be of interest to many people. They will Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, specify that the sustain the front pages of newspapers that are competing adjudicator “must not” rather than “may not” make with an internet that is utterly uncontrollable. I would unauthorised disclosures of information that might not be surprised if very quickly we find that trying to break confidentiality. I am confident that “may not” stem leaks out of these investigations is a problem, and “must not” have the same force here. The words and I believe that we will regret that we did not put “may not”are intended to be prohibitive: the adjudicator down a criminal offence to discourage that. In the is in either instance required to refrain from making current circumstances, though, and at this time of day, unauthorised disclosures. I do not intend to insist on this any further. I beg leave Another two amendments in the name of the noble to withdraw the amendment. Lord, Lord Browne, specify that the duty to maintain confidentiality also applies to the deputy adjudicator Amendment 98 withdrawn. and any staff. I agree completely with this as a matter Amendments 99 to 106 not moved. of principle. However, the Government are confident that the deputy adjudicator and staff seconded to the Clause 18 agreed. adjudicator would already be bound by the duty of confidentiality as set out in the Bill and that therefore 6.15 pm the amendment is unnecessary. Clause 19 : Levy funding The noble Lord’s final amendment on this clause makes any knowing breach of confidentiality by the adjudicator or his or her staff an offence and introduces Amendment 107 fines for anyone found guilty of such an offence. I do Moved by Lord Borrie not believe that the threat of fines is necessary to make 107: Clause 19, page 8, line 5, leave out “may” and insert the adjudicator act responsibly. The adjudicator will “must” GC 227 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 228

Lord Borrie: My Lords, the origin of the Bill, as we Baroness Randerson: My Lords, I shall speak to all know, stems from a Competition Commission report Amendment 111A, which would amend Clause 19 by that found fault with major supermarkets in ways that removing subsection (5) and replacing it with a new I shall not trouble to delineate now. It seems appropriate subsection. This concerns the same issue of the flat-rate that the levy should be imposed on major supermarkets levy. Clause 19(5) specifies that it should be same for to pay for the financing of the groceries code adjudicator’s all retailers unless the Secretary of State decides otherwise position and office. However, I prefer the wording of and makes an order that allows it to reflect expense the amendment of my noble friend Lord Knight, so I and time. My amendment does away with the first will not push my amendment. I certainly will not push phase of the flat-rate levy. It is on very much the same the point about not requiring the Secretary of State’s ground as other amendments in this group. Mine consent. would enable the Secretary of State to decide the criteria that should be applied for a variable levy. Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, I shall speak I repeat what I said on Amendment 87C, which to Amendments 108 and 112, and to Amendment 121, referred to this issue. There is a basic problem in that a which refers to Clause 20, because it is related to the flat-rate levy will not change behaviour because there same point. For the sake of efficiency I will do it in will be no reward to retailers for avoiding getting into that way. Indeed, I shall speak in relative support of trouble and behaving well. We need to start on a the amendment of my noble friend Lord Borrie. I am strong footing and, as the noble Lord, Lord Knight, relaxed about whether the wording is “must” or “shall”. has just said, on an equitable footing that reflects the I am sure that there are parliamentary draftsmen who size of the different retailers. I am conscious that the have a very strong opinion on the most effective word Minister has said that she will deal with this issue as long as the meaning remains. For the sake of plain when she responds to this group of amendments. English we need to be clear about what we are doing here in Parliament. I believe that it is the Government’s Lord Teverson: My Lords, I shall speak to intention that the adjudicator’s office should be fully Amendment 114, which is very straightforward. Under funded by the levy on the major retailers and that the Clause 19(5), the Secretary of State must make an taxpayer should not fund it. If that is the Government’s order to allow the adjudicator to differentiate. My intention they should say so and be clear in the Bill in noble friend Lord Razzall and I believe that the adjudicator the same way as they are about other bodies that are should have this direct ability. Again, we have this funded by levies. That clarity would help everybody indirect method of making decisions through the Secretary and that is what the amendments would do. of State. I am sure that the Secretary of State has far Amendment 121 to Clause 20 would remove the more important things to do than decide the specific option for the Secretary of State to make grants to the division of the levy among the small population of adjudicator so that, again, the office would be fully large retailers. If we are to have a serious adjudicator, funded by the major retailers. That is all that that we should give that person the authority to undertake amendment would do. Amendment 112 would remove that task. If we feel that the adjudicator’s decisions are the provision for a flat rate levy from the 10 major wrong, I am sure that other provisions in the Bill will retailers and replace it with a requirement for the levy ensure that that is communicated to him or her. to be calculated in proportion to annual turnover. As we have heard, there is a significant difference between the sizes of major retailers whose turnover is more Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, many noble Lords than £1 billion. I think that it would be fairer, certainly have given close consideration to how the levy to fund initially, for the levy to reflect turnover. It may be that the adjudicator should be raised. The noble Lords, in time the levy would reflect those retailers that Lord Borrie, Lord Knight of Weymouth and Lord occupy the most time for the adjudicator and cause Grantchester, proposed similar amendments, respectively the highest number of substantiated complaints and suggesting that the Bill should specify that the adjudicator investigations. However, for now, relative to turnover “must” or “shall”, rather than “may”, levy funds from is a better solution. As I recall I think that that was the retailers. I agree with the principle that the adjudicator what the Competition Commission recommended. I look should raise its funds from the retailers. This is intended forward to a willing Minister. as the adjudicator’s primary funding source. Other forms of income, such as payment for the cost of Lord Howard of Rising: I shall speak to Amendment individual investigations or loans and grants from the 110A in this group, which seeks to impose some form Secretary of State, are intended to be secondary. of parliamentary discipline on the amounts of money However, simply specifying that raising funds is that the adjudicator can charge. In effect, the adjudicator obligatory would not have a clear outcome unless the is imposing a tax. That is, he is compulsorily taking Bill specified when the adjudicator must do so. The money from private organisations to fund his office. current drafting is intended to allow the adjudicator to It would be unreasonable for such power not to be levy funds whenever he or she deems it necessary, not overseen. There is provision in the Bill for the Secretary to impose a schedule of when he or she may or must of State to do so, but a parliamentary order—we all raise funds. I believe that we agree on the principle know that they are, in effect, rubber stamps—would at that the adjudicator should be funded by the retailers, least give Parliament the benefit of being able to look but I also believe that the current drafting gives the at what is happening and comment on it. There will adjudicator greater flexibility and is preferable. then be some form of external discipline over the The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, proposed a further adjudicator when he decides how much money—some amendment removing the need for the Secretary of call it a levy but I call it a tax—the retailers should pay. State to give consent before a levy is raised. I am GC 229 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 230 sympathetic to the principles of avoiding unnecessary 6.30 pm hurdles and the need for independence for the adjudicator. In response to Amendment 121, tabled by the noble However, this amendment would give the adjudicator Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, the Government a completely free hand to raise funds from the retailers believe that the adjudicator should be funded by a levy without the oversight of Ministers. The Secretary of on the 10 large retailers. This point has been discussed State needs only to give consent and may not direct at length previously, including in pre-legislative scrutiny. the adjudicator to raise any levy, but some accountability We believe that, given that the code and adjudicator is necessary. are a response to practices by the large retailers, it is The noble Lords, Lord Knight of Weymouth and suitable that they should fund the adjudicator. This is Lord Grantchester, proposed that the levy should underlined by the fact that the adjudicator is being initially be divided according to the large retailers’ established by statute only because the retailers did turnover. That possibility was considered during pre- not give the Competition Commission suitable assurances legislative scrutiny, but the Government believe that it that they would set up an independent adjudicator would be unfair to assume that a retailer’s size correlates themselves. with how much it breaches the code or with how much I re-emphasise that the intention in allowing the of the adjudicator’s resource it is likely to demand. Secretary of State to make grants to the adjudicator is The principle of fairly sharing the cost of the adjudicator absolutely not to make this the principal way that the is better served by the ability to vary the payments of adjudicator is funded. Rather, it provides flexibility for retailers based on the estimated expense and time of exceptional circumstances where the Secretary of State dealing with them in the light of experience. feels it is suitable to fund some particular cost that should not fall on the retailers. I turn to Amendment 110A, tabled by my noble I hope that those answers and responses to the friend Lord Howard of Rising. This would require an amendments tabled by noble Lords will help and order to be made before a levy is imposed, and would therefore request noble Lords to withdraw their mean that consultation must take place before imposing amendments. the levy and before any subsequent increase in the levy. I believe that unnecessary bureaucracy should be Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, I think that avoided wherever possible. The Government’s intention my noble friend Lord Borrie has already said that he to fund this body via a levy has been clearly set out in will withdraw his amendment in favour of mine and I previous consultations and policy documents; the will be happy not to press mine. I am slightly disappointed mechanism for a levy and how it is to be imposed can in the Minister’s answer. Particularly if there are fines be read from the Bill. I therefore see no need to require that are then paid to the Consolidated Fund, she is the imposition of an order, or for a further round of opening up the Secretary of State for considerable consultation, before imposing the levy, particularly lobbying from the major retailers, who will say, “Well, when the levy is subject to the approval of the you’ve just had a whole load of our money, so can we Secretary of State and not simply at the adjudicator’s just waive the levy for the next year because you’ve discretion. already got the funds for the adjudicator?”. That On my noble friend’s question about limiting the would create some weird incentives and disincentives. amount of the levy, a limit on how much can be raised It would be much more straightforward to be clear could tie the hands of the adjudicator, particularly if right from the outset. I know that she will reflect on there was a costly appeal for which funds were needed. that and I am happy to withdraw my amendment. The fact that the Secretary of State must approve each levy is an assurance that it will not be misused. Amendment 107 withdrawn. This brings me to Amendment 114, tabled by my Amendment 108 not moved. noble friends Lord Razzall and Lord Teverson. This would remove the requirement for the Secretary of Amendment 109 State to make an order before the adjudicator can vary the way the levy is made. Given the principles of Moved by Baroness Wilcox avoiding bureaucracy that I have just set out, I am 109: Clause 19, page 8, line 5, leave out “large” and insert “the willing to look again at whether an order is necessary specified” before a levy can be varied in the proportionate way set out in the latter part of subsection (5). The fact Amendment 109 agreed. that individual levies would still need to be approved by the Secretary of State could provide an adequate Amendments 110 to 112 not moved. safeguard, and I will happily discuss this issue further with my noble friends Lord Razzall and Lord Teverson Amendment 113 before the next stage of the Bill. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, will also be happy to Moved by Baroness Wilcox discuss this issue, as I believe that her amendment 113: Clause 19, page 8, line 12, leave out “large retailer” and shares the same objective of avoiding bureaucratic insert “of the specified retailers” delay. However, the Government feel that varying the levy should be a matter for the independent adjudicator Amendment 113 agreed. and that the role of the Secretary of State should be simply to give consent. Amendment 114 not moved. GC 231 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 232

Lord True: My Lords, I apologise that I was not Amendments 115 to 117 able to be present at Second Reading because of a Moved by Baroness Wilcox local authority meeting. I am also sorry to detain the 115: Clause 19, page 8, line 14, leave out “large” and insert Committee on an issue that is not solely related to this “the specified” Bill at this late hour. However, I hope, given the length of the proceedings and that it will take a little time to 116: Clause 19, page 8, line 17, leave out “retailers” and insert develop my argument, that Members of the Committee “specified retailers and any subsidiaries” will be indulgent. It is the first opportunity that we 117: Clause 19, page 8, line 18, leave out “large” and insert have had to comment in detail on a matter that I “specified” understand is intended by some to be a pilot to many—if not all—Bills in future. I refer to so-called plain English— Amendments 115 to 117 agreed. or, rather, those cheery questions in italics added above the normal side headings in Bills. My noble Amendment 118 friend Lady Byford said at Second Reading, at col. 742 of Hansard on 22 May, that she found these headings Moved by Lord Howard of Rising “folksy” and not very helpful. The noble Lord, Lord 118: Clause 19, page 8, line 25, leave out “may” and insert Knight of Weymouth, said at col. 760 that he rather “must” liked them and found that they helped clarity. I do not think that they help clarity. Lord Howard of Rising: I will not keep the Committee I tabled amendments to remove Clauses 19 and 21 long as I am mindful of the 7 pm deadline. The idea because I was advised by the Public Bill Office that that the adjudicator might have a surplus is a triumph this was the only way that a Member could raise this of hope over experience, rather like divorcing and question and I did not want to hold up consideration getting married again. However, if there is a reasonable of the rest of the Bill. However, I think that it merits surplus—there should probably be a minimum above some attention. I have no idea where these new headings which this does not have to operate—it should be come from. I have seen that they are a pilot for plain returned to those people who have paid it or, the English legislation, but it seems to me that they following year, they should have a corresponding must emanate from some quite high-up person in reduction. I beg to move. government—one of those well meaning men or women with time on their hands and clearly unworldly enough Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, the Government’s to think that the public might want to read Bills while intention in giving the adjudicator discretion over sitting alongside me on what I hope will be the 7.33 to whether to repay retailers at the end of the year is to Twickenham. avoid unnecessary bureaucracy where the adjudicator As I was not able to speak at Second Reading, I is required to repay retailers before then immediately gave my noble friend Lady Wilcox notice that I would raising further funds from them. I believe that noble question this approach. I did not want her to worry Lords on all sides of the House are supportive of the that by opposing Clause 19 I was opposing the whole adjudicator being able to carry on his or her work with Bill—whatever I think of the Bill, that is not my aim. as little bureaucratic burden as possible, especially as My noble friend, with typical courtesy, sent me a swift in this case the burden would fall on the retailers as reply. She told me that the intention was to make well as the adjudicator. I therefore ask the noble Lord legislation more accessible to the public. Her letter to withdraw his amendment, if he feels that this is a referred to the demands of accessibility. I am not sure good explanation. who they are coming from, but once again I see the smiley face of the high-up person in government come Lord Howard of Rising: I thank the noble Baroness. up before my eyes. My noble friend was kind enough I suggest that if there is a large surplus, it should be not to dismiss my fear that there might be issues of deducted from the following year. That would save the logical consistency, questions on the interpretation of bureaucracy. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. parliamentary intent and, indeed, the risk of value judgments that could emerge if this process spreads. Amendment 118 withdrawn I will illustrate briefly what I mean.

Amendments 119 and 120 The heading above Clause 19 reads: Moved by Baroness Wilcox “How is the Adjudicator funded?”. 119: Clause 19, page 8, line 26, leave out “large” and insert I think that means “funding”in plain English, substituting “specified” one word for the well meaning, accessible five. 120: Clause 19, page 8, line 27, leave out “subsection (9)” and insert “this section— However, that is not my main point. How many “specified retailer” means a retailer mentioned in Article 4(1)(a) hours in this Committee and others do we spend or (b) of the Groceries Supply Order;” debating “shall”, “may” or “must” amendments? Big questions turn on those words, and Parliament rightly Amendments 119 and 120 agreed. considers very carefully the appropriateness of each. As regards this clause, the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, Debate on whether Clause 19 should stand part of the has suggested “must” for “may” in line 5; the noble Bill. Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, has suggested “shall” GC 233 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 234 for “may”; and my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising which I will now speak to. This is a nonsense, because has just suggested a “must” for “may”. I am not taking when the Bill is commenced what is in Clause 21 will a stand on any of those debates. already be law, so that will just lie on the Bill as an The Bill is clearly drafted with a “may” in the otiose and rather foolish idea. funding power it affords to the adjudicator. It implies Finally, I will give one more example before I that he did not necessarily take a levy; nor, indeed, accept the strictures and sit down. However, I will, need the Secretary of State give consent, grants or having been made to sit down, return to this matter on loans. Yet the accessible heading says: Report, and I will also listen very carefully to what my “How is the Adjudicator funded?”— noble friend says. This matter is intended to help and not “How may the Adjudicator be funded?”. electronic access to legislation. If you look at the heading, Some might ask, what is the intention of the Government “How does the Adjudicator handle information?”, or Parliament? Is it that he will be funded come what the normal practice is that when you click on a heading may—as the heading implies—or that he may secure on an electronic screen, the screen shows text starting funding, as the text of the Bill suggests? I think this is from the point of the heading. Why, then, does this a circle that you can square. heading come above Clause 18 and not above Clause 17, However, we in Parliament do not have the power which covers the Secretary of State’s right to require to amend such headings; that is why I have had to information from the adjudicator? Surely, anyone table a clause stand part amendment rather than suggest interested in how information is handled should be leaving out “is”and putting in “may”. To my knowledge, signposted to that new power for the Executive. Who presently the courts do not construct any arguments decided to put the heading there and not above on the basis of descriptive headings in a Bill. But when Clause 17, and why can Parliament have no say in the a new practice comes into the writing of law—and in matter? Bills more high-profile than this—could some creative I will sit down now, but I submit that potentially lawyers bear to stand idly by? What happens when, as significant issues are raised by this new practice, and I here, a heading says that something “is to be done” apologise, after eight and a half hours of proceedings and the Bill says it “may be done”? on this, for venturing to speak for eight minutes.

Lord De Mauley: I hate to intervene on my noble Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, this is the first time friend. Perhaps it would be going too far to suggest that I have had occasion to respond to the noble Lord, that he is verging on a Second Reading speech, which I Lord True. I know the noble Lord to be an elegant would not want to do that. I happen to know that my wordsmith with a passion for our beautiful language, noble friend has some quite comforting words to give so I would not, therefore, take lightly anything that he that might enable him to abbreviate his speech on this has said, even if he feels that he has had to be a little clause stand part debate. briefer than he would have wished. Regarding the points that the noble Lord has raised, they are both interesting and technical. They are points Lord Browne of Ladyton: Perhaps the noble Lord on which I will seek legal advice, and I will make sure will allow me to interrupt him, the comfort is to be that when I return he is a happier person than he is found if he simply looks at it. The heading applies to today. I am happy to speak to him about this before Clauses 19 and 20, so the funding that comes from the the next stage of the Bill, and I therefore wonder if he public purse and the Secretary of State is encompassed would be prepared to withdraw his amendment. under this heading. This is how the adjudicator is to be funded. Lord Howard of Rising: Could I just point out to the Minister that this is as much a point of principle as Lord True: My Lords, I hear what my noble friend it is of detail? The point of principle should be addressed, says, and I am conscious that everybody needs to go. It and that is not necessarily something that concerns is a great pity when a Member wishes to raise a point only lawyers, but Members of this House and Members of substance on the way in which law is written— of Parliament in general. something that this House is here to deal with—he is very swiftly interrupted by a member of his Front Bench. I will try to accelerate my remarks, having been Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, my suggestion patient in this Committee. to the Minister is that it might be helpful for her to write to the Committee, and in particular to address I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Browne, says, but the very valid point that the noble Lord, Lord True, to answer his point, let us look at the heading on has raised; namely, that Parliament cannot amend page 5, line 21: these words. I am happy with the words in this Bill, but “How is the Adjudicator supervised?”. if this is a pilot, it would be interesting to hear the That smothers in obscurity the power to abolish the views of those conducting the pilot as to whether any adjudicator in Clause 16. Only Clause 15 is about consideration has been given to us being able to amend supervision, yet this Committee has been concerned those words. about abolition. What value judgment is this, when the Bill highlights supervision and passes over abolition? Lord True: I thank my noble friend and other noble Above Clause 21, the heading reads: Lords, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Knight of “Will this law mean other changes to the law?”, Weymouth. It is reasonable for a parliamentarian to GC 235 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][LORDS] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 236

[LORD TRUE] Lord Howard of Rising: My Lords, I speak to this raise a point of principle in relation to law-making at amendment, which introduces a sunset clause. This the first opportunity that he has. I am grateful for the should please the Minister, as it is in line with government indulgence of the Committee. As I said, I do not policy both to have sunset clauses in new legislation necessarily think that some of these are clear-cut and to get rid of quangos. Two for the price of one, as cases, but there is enough doubt and uncertainty raised a supermarket might put it. A sunset clause is necessary by this procedure. A parliamentarian must place on because during our debate I found myself, as a record in Hansard for the attention of Members of businessman, a supplier to supermarkets and a farmer, both Houses something that potentially affects the drawing different conclusions from those expressed by way in which Parliament is able to deal with legislation. other noble Lords. My noble friend Lord Eccles has With those comments, I beg leave to withdraw my already commented on some of the examples quoted opposition to the clause and will not oppose the by the noble Lord, Lord Knight, in his robust defence Question that Clause 21 stand part. of the necessity of having an adjudicator. Putting aside the fact that most of the examples were provided Clause 19, as amended, agreed. by pressure groups—which brings to mind the famous phrase, “They would say that, wouldn’t they?”— I would like to touch on the tales of woe about the Clause 20: Payments by Secretary of State cavalier treatment of new product development by supermarkets, quoted by the noble Lord. I do not Amendment 121 not moved. believe that they stand up.

Clause 20 agreed. If a product is unfairly rejected by a supermarket, and it is a good or profitable product, it will be saleable to another supermarket. In fact, it will probably Clause 21: Amendments and transition be grabbed with alacrity. If the product is not good enough to be sold to any other supermarkets, the Amendment 121A not moved. promoter of the new product has made a bad commercial judgment. It is not the business of government to Clause 21 agreed. provide underwriting for commerce. Supermarkets are always competing to provide Clause 22: Definitions something new and better. This is self-evident. As was said on a number of occasions at Second Reading, in Amendment 122 not moved. the past 30 years there has been an explosion of foods available at supermarkets, without a corresponding increase in prices. That can have been achieved only by Amendment 123 retailers constantly looking for new and innovative products. Supermarkets are constantly looking for Moved by Baroness Wilcox good new products and these will find a market, if not 123: Clause 22, page 10, line 8, at end insert “or a subsidiary of with one supermarket, then with another. I believe—I a designated retailer” speak as someone directly connected with supermarket supply—that this new quango will be expensive and Amendment 123 agreed. will contribute absolutely nothing except increased costs to shoppers, who will be the ultimate payers of Clause 22, as amended, agreed. those costs. It is only sensible to have a finite date—which, after all, can be extended if I am proved wrong and the quango does end up making a contribution to food Clause 23: Orders retailing. Amendments 123A and 124 not moved. 6.45 pm Clause 23 agreed. Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, the Government in Clause 24 agreed. general support the use of sunset clauses to avoid the risk of overregulation and to ensure that regulators remain in place only where they are strictly needed. Clause 25: Commencement However, the Bill already contains provision for sunset and review, in that the adjudicator must be reviewed every three years and can, following such a review, be Amendment 125 abolished if the Secretary of State considers it appropriate. Moved by Lord Howard of Rising Many noble Lords have expressed their desire to ensure that any power of the Secretary of State to amend the 125: Clause 25, page 10, line 35, at end insert— adjudicator’s powers or functions should be subject to “( ) This Act will cease to have effect following the second review period required under section 15, unless a statutory instrument proper scrutiny, and the Government believe that the disapplying the provisions of this subsection has been laid before Bill provides for that. To remove the same scrutiny and approved by a resolution of both Houses of Parliament for the cessation of the Act would therefore be before the end of the second review period.” disproportionate. GC 237 Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL][28 JUNE 2012] Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] GC 238

The Bill is fully in line with the Government’s broader Clause 25 agreed. policy on sunset and review. Therefore, I think that the job is done and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his Clause 26 agreed. amendment. Amendment 126 not moved. Lord Howard of Rising: I thoroughly disagree, but I withdraw the amendment. Bill reported with amendments.

Amendment 125 withdrawn. Committee adjourned at 6.51 pm.

WS 19 Written Statements[28 JUNE 2012] Written Statements WS 20

Security Forces (ANSF) have lead security responsibility. Written Statements Tranche three, which includes a number of challenging Thursday 28 June 2012 areas, will include Nahr-e Saraj, the third and final area within the UK’s area of operation to begin transition. Lashkar Gah and Nad-e-Ali entered transition in Afghanistan tranches one and two respectively. Transition in these Statement tranches has progressed well, with ANSF capability continuing to improve. The process remains on track The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth for transition to complete in all areas of the country Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable by the end of 2014. friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and I am placing the report in the Library of the Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague) has made House. It will also be published on the Foreign and the following Written Ministerial Statement. Commonwealth Office website (www.fco.gov.uk). I wish to inform the House that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, together with the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Armed Forces: Reserve Forces Development, is today publishing the eighteenth progress Statement report on developments in Afghanistan since November 2010. At the NATO summit in Chicago on 20 and 21 May, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry the international community demonstrated its enduring of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My honourable support to Afghanistan beyond the end of security friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces transition. ISAF partners delivered on the commitments (Nick Harvey) has made the following Written Ministerial made at the Bonn conference with credible financial Statement. contributions to sustain the ANSF beyond the withdrawal With the expiry of the call-out order made on of ISAF troops. They also agreed NATO’s long-term 1 May 2011, a new order has been made under Section role in Afghanistan up to and beyond 2014. The 56(1)(a) of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to enable summit sent a clear message to the Afghan people that reservists to continue to be called out into permanent we will not abandon them. It also sent a clear message service as part of the United Kingdom’s contribution to the insurgency that they cannot wait us out. The to the United Nations Forces in Cyprus (UNFICYP). summit communiqué reaffirmed NATO’s commitment The new order is effective until 28 June 2013. Some to full implementation of United Nations Security 54 reservists are currently called out in support of Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1325 on women, peace UNFICYP. All 54 are serving in Cyprus. and security. It also endorsed a strategic progress report to make UNSCR 1325 an integral part of NATO-led operations and missions. At Chicago, partners also noted the progress in Care Quality Commission security transition and welcomed the recent announcement Statement of tranche three in May. They looked ahead to the mid-2013 milestone, the point at which the fifth and final tranche is expected to begin and the Afghan The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department National Security Forces will take on lead security of Health (Earl Howe): My right honourable friend the responsibility across the country. When transition Minister of State, Department of Health (Simon Burns) completes at the end of 2014, the ANSF will have full has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. security responsibility and ISAF will move away from The Care Quality Commission (CQC) has today a combat role. published its first quarterly report on the provision of My right honourable friend the Secretary of State health and adult social care in England, Market Report for International Development will attend the Tokyo Issue 1: 2012. conference on 8 July. It is vital for the Tokyo conference The market reports are designed by the CQC to: to deliver much-needed aid commitments. This will provide an update on compliance in each of the sectors complement the security commitments made at Chicago, that CQC regulates on a quarterly basis; to ensure Afghanistan continues to develop long after international troops have departed. identify themes and trends in each sector’s performance; We encourage all international partners to commit flag issues of non-compliance to providers and other at Tokyo to stand by Afghanistan for the long-term bodies which have responsibility for the health and and provide concrete aid pledges for at least the period adult social care system; and up to 2017. The Afghan Government will have to demonstrate the volume and effectiveness of CQC’s demonstrate clearly that they are serious about fighting inspection and enforcement action. corruption and making key policy reforms, to persuade The report published today presents the results of the International Community to continue to provide inspections of more than 14,000 services, between assistance. June 2011 and 31 March 2012, across all the sectors On 13 May, the Afghan Government announced that CQC currently regulates: healthcare, adult social the third tranche of areas to enter transition. Once care and dental care. This and future reports will tranche three begins, 75% of the Afghan population provide a snapshot of the compliance of providers will be living in areas where the Afghan National against the essential safety and quality requirements. WS 21 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 22

This report also includes a special feature on maternity Copies of the summary of responses to the call for services and focuses on midwife staffing numbers. The evidence and the impacts checklists will be placed in Department of Health is moving toward a workforce the Libraries of both Houses and on the department’s where the focus will be increasingly on supporting the website at www.justice.gov.uk. whole maternity team to make the best use of their contributions by using innovation and new technology to drive up the quality of care and deliver value for Disabled People: Right to Control money. Statement The Centre for Workforce Intelligence has been asked by the Department of Health to undertake an The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department in-depth study of the nursing and maternity workforce. for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My honourable The final report will be published in summer 2012. friend the Minister for Disabled People (Maria Miller) Market Report Issue 1: 2012 has been placed in the has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Library. Copies are available to honourable Members The current Right to Control pilot scheme is from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the implemented by regulations which expire on 13 December Printed Paper Office. 2012. The Government believe that the best way to get more evidence about the delivery of Right to Control is to extend the current pilot scheme for a further Data Protection 12 months beyond December 2012. Accordingly, the Statement Government are proposing to put in place that extension. Later today the department will launch a public The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord consultation in which it asks for views about its proposed McNally): Today, I will publish the Government’s extension of the pilot scheme. summary of responses to their call for evidence on the In line with requirements under Part 2 of the Welfare European Commission’snew proposals for data protection. Reform Act 2009, the department will publish, for On 25 January 2012, the European Commission comment, draft regulations to enable the extension of published a draft data protection directive (covering the pilot scheme. Pending the results of the consultation the police and judicial sector) and a draft data protection it is our intention to lay the draft regulations before regulation (mainly impacting on individuals, business, Parliament for approval in the autumn. the public sector and charities). The Government’s The consultation document, which includes the call for evidence, which was launched on 7 February draft regulations, will be published later today on the and concluded on 6 March 2012, sought evidence on Department for Work and Pensions website with details the potential impact on the UK of both the proposed of the consultation process. I will also place a copy of regulation and the proposed directive. the consultation document in the House Library later 143 responses were received from across the public, today. private and third sectors, consumer groups and members of the public. In addition to inviting written responses to the call for evidence, officials from the Ministry of Embryology Justice took part in a series of bilateral discussions Statement and roundtables to hear views from industry and rights groups. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Broadly, respondents to the call for evidence welcomed of Health (Earl Howe): My honourable friend the the opportunity for a revision of the current data Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department protection framework. Rights groups and members of Health (Anne Milton) has made the following Written of the general public welcomed the strengthening of Ministerial Statement. individuals’ rights and greater transparency in the The Department of Health is publishing a Consultation processing of personal data. However, businesses and on Proposals to Transfer Functions from the Human some public sector organisations expressed their concerns Fertilisation and Embryology Authority and the Human about the additional burdens and unintended consequence Tissue Authority today. stemming from the proposed regulation. The evidence In Liberating the NHS: Report of the Arm’s-Length received will help to inform the UK’s position for the Bodies Review (2010), the Department of Health set ongoing negotiations of the EU data protection out its proposals for reducing bureaucracy and increasing instruments. efficiencies. This included transferring all functions At the same time as publishing this summary of from the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority responses, the Government will publish their impacts and the Human Tissue Authority with a view to checklist of the proposed data protection instruments. abolishing the two organisations by 2015. This consultation Primarily, the checklists aim to assess the costs and sets out options for taking this work forward. We benefits the proposed instruments could generate. welcome views and will use these to inform our thinking. Negotiations are expected to continue at EU level A copy of the Consultation on Proposals to Transfer until 2014, when the Government’s aim is to secure a Functions from the Human Fertilisation and Embryology data protection framework that is proportionate, and Authority and the Human Tissue Authority has been that minimizes the burdens on businesses and other placed in the Library. Copies are available to honourable organisations, while giving individuals real protection Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords in how their personal data are processed. from the Printed Paper Office. WS 23 Written Statements[28 JUNE 2012] Written Statements WS 24

EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health Labour and Employment Ministers, and finally, the and Consumer Affairs Council Cypriot delegation outlined the work programme of their forthcoming presidency. Statement Industrial Development Act 1982 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Statement for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My right honourable friend the Minister for Employment (Chris Grayling) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer My honourable friend the Minister for Business and Affairs Council met on 21 June 2012 in Luxembourg. Enterprise has today made the following Statement. I represented the United Kingdom. I would like to inform the House that the Government The main discussion was a policy debate on the are today publishing a response to the consultation Europe 2020 Strategy: Contribution to the European on modernising the Industrial Development Act 1982 Council (28 and 29 June 2012)—European Semester. (IDA). This confirms the Government intention to The presidency stated that it was vitally important for remove the automatic 100% assisted area status of Europe to take ambitious reform measures and the Northern Ireland and to make a number of more Commission stressed the greater need for economic technical revisions to update the IDA. integration in Europe. I intervened to state that country A revised IDA, updated to reflect current economic specific recommendations (CSRs) were a key tool and realities, will provide maximum flexibility for addressing needed to be ambitious and challenging but that they economic disparities across the whole of the United needed to be fully supported by evidence and be Kingdom when drawing up the assisted areas map for relevant to individual member states. I further stressed 2014-20 and when offering aid. that the process for agreeing CSRs needed improvement Removing Northern Ireland’s automatic assisted and, in particular, the Commission should show greater area status will not in itself mean Northern Ireland willingness to listen and accept changes where duly losing its 100% coverage under the Commission’s regional justified and supported by evidence. aid guidelines and new assisted areas map for 2014-20. There were progress reports on four topics; legislative The UK Government will work with the Northern initiatives for posting of workers; minimum health Ireland Executive to get the best outcome from the and safety requirements regarding the exposure of European level discussions and there will be further workers to the risks arising from physical agents consultation on the new UK assisted area map. (electromagnetic fields); the principle of equal treatment A copy of the response document will be placed in of persons irrespective of religion or belief, disability, the Library of both Houses and is available electronically age or sexual orientation; and the European Globalisation on the BIS website at: http://www.bis.gov.uk/ Adjustment Fund (EGF) (2014-20). On EGF, there Consultations/revision-of-industrial-development- was support from some member states to continue the act-1982. fund in the next programming period while others disagreed. I intervened to state that the fund should be discontinued. National Employer Advisory Board In addition, Ministers adopted two sets of council Statement conclusions, covering responding to the demographic challenges through enhanced participation in the labour market and society by all, and gender equality and the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry environment: enhanced decision-making, qualifications of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable and competitiveness in the field of climate change friend the Minister for Defence Personnel, Welfare mitigation policy in the EU. and Veterans (Andrew Robathan) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Ministers reached a partial general approach on the programme for social change and innovation (PSCI) In accordance with the Cabinet Office’s guidance excluding the programme budget. I supported this, on public bodies, a review of the National Employer while tabling a minute statement stressing that, as the Advisory Board (NEAB) has been commissioned and Danish presidency has made clear, progress in negotiating work will commence in July 2012. individual sectoral regulations should not prejudice NEAB is an advisory non-departmental public body, the outcome of the overall multiannual financial sponsored by the Ministry of Defence (MoD), which framework discussion. Ministers also endorsed the provides informed but independent advice to Ministers main messages from the Social Protection Committee’s and the MoD about how it can most effectively gain report on pensions’ adequacy. and maintain the support of the employers of Britain’s Under any other business, the Commission provided Reserve Forces. The review will consider the effectiveness information on national Roma integration strategies of how the functions of the NEAB are currently and the ratification and implementation of the UN delivered, whether there is a need for the function and Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities. for the advisory NDPB to continue, and if so, how the The presidency provided information on conferences function might best be delivered in future. held during the Danish presidency. The Commission The review is due to be completed later this year and presidency both reported on the G20 Meeting of and I shall inform the House of its outcome. WS 25 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 26

Overseas Territories in particular in maintaining the rule of law and integrity Statement in public life, building strong and successful communities and respecting human rights. This Government are determined to help the territories run themselves effectively, The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth not to run them themselves. The territories have made Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable considerable strides in their economic development. friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and We are determined to support them and to ensure that Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague) has made those territories that still need assistance will remain a the following Written Ministerial Statement. first call on Britain’s international development budget. Today I am publishing the Government’s White We expect these territories to do all that is necessary to Paper on the Overseas Territories: Security, Success reduce over time their reliance on subsidies from the and Sustainability. This is the first review of the overseas British taxpayer; and we expect all territory Governments territories since 1999 and it is the culmination of two to manage their public finances sustainably. years’ work and consultation. The third goal of our strategy is to improve the We came to Government determined to renew and quality and range of support available to the territories. strengthen relationships with the overseas territories. The Government are willing to make investments that Our historical links go back more than four centuries. will promote growth and economic independence in The territories comprise a quarter of a million people the aided territories. For example, the Department for and 90% of the biodiversity of the UK and territories International Development is spending up to £247 million combined. They are valued constituent parts of the on a project to construct an airport on St Helena. This realm and we have a responsibility to ensure their will be a significant step on the path to self-sufficiency security and good governance. We also want them to and will help the island to reduce its dependence on be vibrant and flourishing communities that proudly UK aid in the future. retain aspects of their British identity. This means We also want to help the territories build productive upholding their rights of self-determination, helping links with other countries and international organisations, them become economically independent and able to particularly to make good use of support from the generate opportunities for their people, and protecting European Union and the Commonwealth. We will their extraordinary environmental heritage. support this using the FCO’s overseas networks and The Government take these responsibilities very relationships. seriously. This year, we have celebrated a number of important The White Paper has been developed across landmarks relating to the territories. In January, we government departments and in consultation with the marked the centenary of Scott’s heroic journey to the people and Governments of the territories. It sends South Pole. Earlier this month, we welcomed territory an important signal of long-term commitment and leaders to Britain to celebrate the Diamond Jubilee. engagement. It focuses on three goals and practical Two weeks ago, we commemorated the 30th anniversary measures to achieve them. of the end of the Falklands conflict in which British soldiers gave their lives to protect the Falkland islanders’ First, it seeks to strengthen engagement between right of self-determination. This White Paper is another the United Kingdom and the territories. We want to major milestone—one that marks a new era of positive deepen our co-operation and share expertise more engagement between Britain and the overseas territories. widely. At a government level, for the first time all departments have agreed that they will take a lead in engaging with the territories in their respective areas Schools: Funding of competence. Each has written its own paper on its Statement work with the territories. We are launching a Jubilee programme to support the exchange of expertise between public servants in the territories and the UK. We also The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for want to build stronger links at political level. We are Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My right honourable determined that the agenda set out in the White Paper friend the Secretary of State for Education (Michael will be driven forward by the UK and territory leaders Gove) has made the following Written Ministerial together through a Joint Ministerial Council. This Statement. strategy goes beyond government. It seeks to foster I am today announcing the final arrangements for partnerships between the UK and the territories in the funding schools from 2013-14. This provides a vital private sector, professional bodies and civil society. step towards a national funding formula, which will Our second goal is to help the territories to improve create a funding system that is fair, logical and distributes governance, financial management and economic extra funding towards pupils who need it the most. planning, where this is necessary. We inherited a situation where there was inequality We appreciate the remarkable diversity of the territories, in the funding of schools, with similar schools or each with their own specific attributes, opportunities pupils in different locations attracting different levels and needs. In these times of global economic difficulty of funding. I am determined to end this inequality and we all face common challenges: building more diverse to create a fair and transparent system of funding for and resilient economies, cutting public sector deficits, schools. regulating business effectively, ensuring the sustainability In March, I announced my intention to introduce a of natural resources and protecting the environment. new national funding formula for schools during the There are certain standards which we must all uphold, next spending review period. This will ensure that WS 27 Written Statements[28 JUNE 2012] Written Statements WS 28 similar pupils, no matter where they go to school in Taxation: VAT the country, attract similar levels of funding. To pave Statement the way for this broader reform, I set out my intention to simplify the local funding arrangements for 2013-14 and consulted on some of those arrangements. I also The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord announced a new approach to high needs funding that Sassoon): My honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary will help to improve transparency, quality and choice to the Treasury (David Gauke) has today made the for young people and their families. following Written Ministerial Statement. HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) is today Following that consultation, I am today publishing publishing its summary of responses to the consultation a document—School Funding Reform: Arrangements VAT: Addressing Borderline Anomalies. The consultation, for 2013-14—which confirms my final decisions. Copies launched on 21 March 2012, closed on 18 May 2012 of this document will be placed in the House Libraries. and nearly 1,500 responses were received. The Government These new arrangements will move us towards a funding have set out some amendments to the initial proposals system which promotes choice and raises quality. and further details are contained within the response document. The announcement today provides the detail necessary The changes to the VAT rules will be enacted through to enable school budgets to be determined on a clearer a new schedule to be introduced at the Report stage to and more transparent basis. It is a significant part in the Finance Bill. our continuing reform of the way schools are funded The summary of responses document is available and will help us achieve our objective of raising the on HMRC’s website and copies have been placed in aspirations and attainment of all pupils. the Libraries of both Houses.

WA 81 Written Answers[28 JUNE 2012] Written Answers WA 82 Written Answers Civil Service: Training Questions Thursday 28 June 2012 Asked by Lord Norton of Louth To ask Her Majesty’s Government what training previously provided to Ministers and to senior civil servants by the National School of Government is Children: Parenting not provided by Civil Service Learning. [HL421] Question Asked by Baroness Scott of Needham Market Baroness Verma: The National School of Government (NSG) provided a wide range of training courses for To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans civil servants, including senior civil servants. Their they have to provide additional training to support bias was often towards longer residential courses, which the wider delivery of parenting interventions, and is now out of step with best practice in training and to maintain the quality of those interventions. constraints on departmental budgets. [HL710] Civil Service Learning (CSL) is not a replacement for NSG. It was established prior to NSG’s closure and provided courses that contributed towards the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools new common curriculum for the Civil Service. The (Lord Hill of Oareford): A well trained workforce is curriculum includes a suite of programmes for senior critical to the delivery of effective parenting interventions. civil servants to address their current and future needs. In 2010-11 the Government funded training (through While some of the content of these programmes is the Children’s Workforce Development Council) to deliver new and the style of delivery is different, with a greater evidence-basedparentingprogrammesfor1,000practitioners. choice and variety of learning solutions, the relevant Building on this, the Government are supporting a learning needs of senior civil servants continue to be range of measures to assist local areas in ensuring that met. the workforce is appropriately trained, including: CSL will continue the provision of professional making available on the Department for Education development opportunities for Ministers in support of website a range of regularly updated training resources their departmental roles, and to enable them better to for local areas and organisations to deliver the level 3 perform their ministerial duties in line with the Ministerial and level 4 work with parents qualifications. These Code. This provision mirrors what was available previously are the qualifications for the parents and families’ through the NSG. workforce. In 2011-12 the Children’s Workforce Asked by Lord Norton of Louth Development Council was funded by the Government to train 80 new local authority trainers in the delivery To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many and assessment of the new level 4 award; civil servants of permanent secretary or equivalent presently in post have received dedicated training working with City and Guilds to enable them to on the constitutional significance of Parliament develop new units in the work with parents and the conventions governing the relationship between qualification, ensuring they have access to up-to- Parliament and Government; and whether it is a date policy information particularly in relation to requirement that those appointed as Permanent troubled families. New units have just been made Secretaries have received such training. [HL523] available at level 3 (relating to support for families with complex and multiple needs; and support for parents in their couple relationship) and a range of Baroness Verma: Information on the training which further units are being developed at level 4; civil servants currently at Permanent Secretary or in June 2012 the Government announced an expansion equivalent level have received in the past is not held of the scheme under which local authorities get centrally. financial incentives to tackle the most troubled families. All civil servants can attend training provided by The Government are diverting £448 million from Civil Service Learning covering the role of Parliament, existing departmental budgets over four years to understanding the parliamentary process, and the help identify families in need of help, make sure relationship between Parliament and Government. they get access to the right services and ensure that The Civil Service Reform plan published last week action is taken. Local areas will decide how this made clear that all civil servants will receive five days money is used, but it is anticipated that some of it training in the future. will be spent on training to support the delivery of parenting interventions; and the Department for Education website also provides Climate Change localcommissionerswithinformationaboutevidence-based Question parenting interventions including details of the training requirements for successful delivery of the programme. Asked by Lord Donoughue All those featured have recently been independently To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much reviewed to ensure they have a rigorous evidence the Department for Environment, Food and Rural base. Affairs has spent on activities related to climate www.education.gov.uk/commissioning-toolkit. change since May 2010. [HL1041] WA 83 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 84

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Employment: Under 25s for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor Questions of Holbeach): Expenditure figures on activities related to climate change since May 2012 are not yet available. Asked by Lord Adonis To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much of Disabled People: Personal Independence the youth contract funding for subsidised jobs for under 24 year-olds on the Work Programme has Payments been dispersed since the launch of the contract in Question April. [HL883] Asked by Baroness Thomas of Winchester To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, will ensure that members of the House of Lords Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The can view and comment on the third version of the wage incentive element of the youth contract was assessment criteria for personal independence payments launched in April 2012. To date no payments have before the final draft of the instrument is laid been made. Employers make their first claim for the before the House for approval, and if so, how. wage incentive when the young person has been in [HL985] employment for a minimum of eight weeks. Therefore, we expect to make the first payments in late June 2012. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The department’s consultation on the assessment criteria To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many closed on 30 April. We are now analysing the over job vacancies for those aged between 16 and 25 were 1,000 responses received, considering the changes we available in each parliamentary constituency in May may wish to make to the assessment criteria to take 2012. [HL1033] account of those responses and to ensure the criteria To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many allow effective assessment of the needs of disabled jobseekers aged between 16 and 25 there were in the people. We intend to publish a response to the consultation United Kingdom in May 2012. [HL1034] and a final draft of the assessment criteria later this year, with regulations laid before Parliament thereafter. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many An exact timetable has yet to be agreed but we are job vacancies for those aged 26 and over were not intending to have a formal period of pre-legislative available in each parliamentary constituency in May scrutiny on the assessment regulations, which have 2012. [HL1035] already been subject to extensive consultation and co-production with disabled people and disability Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The information requested organisations. The regulations will be made available falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics to the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments for Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. its scrutiny and will be laid under an affirmative Letter from Stephen Penneck, Director General for resolution, providing both Houses with the opportunity ONS, to Lord Roberts of Llandudno, dated June 2012. to debate and approve them before they can be made. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Education: Modern Languages Questions asking how many job vacancies for those Question aged between 16 and 25 were available in each parliamentary constituency in May 2012 (HL1033); Asked by Baroness Coussins how many jobseekers aged between 16 and 25 there To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they were in the United Kingdom in May 2012 (HL1034); expect to reach a decision on whether to accept the how many job vacancies for those aged 26 and over recommendation of the Expert Panel that modern were available in each parliamentary constituency in foreign languages should be restored to the compulsory May 2012(HL1035). part of the national curriculum until the end of The Office for National Statistics (ONS) estimates Key Stage 4. [HL533] the number of vacancies from the ONS Vacancy Survey, however estimates for geographic areas below UK are not available from this source. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My right honourable An alternative source of information on job vacancies friend the Secretary of State has now written to Tim is administrative data from Jobcentre Plus. This data Oates, the chair of the expert panel, with his response only includes job vacancies notified to Jobcentre Plus to the panel’s recommendations for the primary and consequently is inconsistent with the UK estimates curriculum. The letter states his intention to add breadth from the Vacancy Survey, however geographical area to the primary curriculum by requiring all schools to breakdowns of this data are available. Currently Jobcentre teach a foreign language at key stage 2, from year 3 to Plus vacancies account for around half of the total year 6. He is currently considering the recommendations number of vacancies as reported by the Vacancy Survey. of the expert panel in relation to subject coverage at Vacancies are not provided on the basis of the age key stage 4 and will be making an announcement of people they are available for. Therefore no age soon. breakdown is possible. WA 85 Written Answers[28 JUNE 2012] Written Answers WA 86

In Table 1, we have provided the number of live Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies for May 2012, the Constituency, May 2012 most recent for which figures are available for each parliamentary constituency within the UK. We have Blackpool South 791 527 also provided a figure excluding vacancies which advertise Bolton North East 538 375 self employment opportunities. Bolton South East 286 253 Bolton West 347 188 Figures on the number of people claiming Jobseeker’s Bootle 249 168 Allowance (JSA) are available from Jobcentre Plus Burnley 403 274 administrative data. The number of people aged 16 to 24 Bury North 350 247 claiming JSA resident in the UK in May 2012 was 456k. Bury South 222 183 National and local area estimates for many labour Carlisle 376 209 market statistics, including employment, unemployment Cheadle 399 349 and claimant count are available on the NOMIS website Chorley 408 345 at http://www.nomisweb.co.uk. City of Chester 1,148 898 Congleton 503 442 Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary Copeland 198 171 Constituency, May 2012 Crewe and Nantwich 1,043 856 Denton and Reddish 382 370 North East Eddisbury 642 604 Berwick-upon-Tweed 296 281 Ellesmere Port and 636 554 Bishop Auckland 309 258 Neston Blaydon 310 308 Fylde 414 386 Blyth Valley 363 289 Garston and 368 336 City of Durham 489 437 Halewood Darlington 548 491 Halton 541 465 Easington 367 363 Hazel Grove 333 289 Gateshead 640 580 Heywood and 744 649 Hartlepool 358 270 Middleton Hexham 307 250 Hyndburn 372 317 Houghton and 338 329 Knowsley 362 340 Sunderland South Lancaster and 451 319 Jarrow 290 288 Fleetwood Middlesbrough 816 686 Leigh 307 275 Middlesbrough South 149 139 Liverpool, Riverside 1,653 1,264 and East Cleveland Liverpool, Walton 850 779 Newcastle upon Tyne 932 659 Liverpool, Wavertree 506 482 Central Liverpool, West 211 180 Newcastle upon Tyne 348 295 Derby East Macclesfield 532 469 Newcastle upon Tyne 457 452 Makerfield 267 252 North Manchester Central 2,781 2,332 North Durham 375 358 Manchester, Gorton 270 225 North Tyneside 433 368 Manchester, 360 327 North West Durham 194 182 Withington Redcar 439 425 Morecambe and 287 261 Sedgefield 239 235 Lunesdale South Shields 257 230 Oldham East and 451 379 Stockton North 440 358 Saddleworth Stockton South 479 471 Oldham West and 512 437 Sunderland Central 486 411 Royton Tynemouth 275 250 Pendle 279 269 Wansbeck 209 153 Penrith and The 378 268 Border Washington and 497 471 Sunderland West Preston 906 721 Ribble Valley 417 353 North West Rochdale 416 331 Altrincham and Sale 763 596 West Rossendale and 270 217 Darwen Ashton-under-Lyne 239 204 Salford and Eccles 974 846 Barrow and Furness 261 236 Birkenhead 399 308 Sefton Central 121 114 Blackburn 675 535 South Ribble 392 374 Blackley and 423 282 Southport 481 411 Broughton St Helens North 541 440 Blackpool North and 356 239 St Helens South and 542 473 Cleveleys Whiston WA 87 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 88

Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary Constituency, May 2012 Constituency, May 2012

Stalybridge and Hyde 187 183 Normanton, 540 452 Stockport 957 865 Pontefract and Castleford Stretford and 1,255 1,153 Urmston Penistone and 208 150 Stocksbridge Tatton 1,044 985 Pudsey 434 270 Wallasey 201 185 Richmond (Yorks) 606 562 Warrington North 523 474 Rother Valley 273 247 Warrington South 960 805 Rotherham 502 459 Weaver Vale 653 562 Scarborough and 582 503 West Lancashire 730 655 Whitby Westmorland and 513 441 Scunthorpe 453 332 Lonsdale Selby and Ainsty 759 713 Wigan 960 598 Sheffield Central 1,215 980 Wirral South 260 245 Sheffield South East 308 224 Wirral West 112 85 Sheffield, Brightside 226 200 Workington 172 166 and Hillsborough Worsley and Eccles 234 181 Sheffield, Hallam 56 53 South Sheffield, Heeley 100 96 Wyre and Preston 276 265 North Shipley 374 311 Wythenshawe and 635 449 Skipton and Ripon 538 479 Sale East Thirsk and Malton 454 396 Wakefield 749 609 Yorkshire and The Humber Wentworth and 297 263 Dearne Barnsley Central 313 241 York Central 780 595 Barnsley East 159 133 York Outer 597 564 Batley and Spen 480 445 Beverley and 244 171 East Midlands Holderness Amber Valley 832 750 Bradford East 497 370 Ashfield 621 579 Bradford South 395 306 Bassetlaw 645 578 Bradford West 830 640 Bolsover 595 591 Brigg and Goole 291 243 Boston and Skegness 651 502 Calder Valley 550 488 Bosworth 456 434 Cleethorpes 364 300 Broxtowe 291 249 Colne Valley 203 181 Charnwood 308 293 Dewsbury 367 259 Chesterfield 408 358 Don Valley 200 188 Corby 704 627 Doncaster Central 791 522 Daventry 997 770 Doncaster North 166 142 Derby North 302 274 East Yorkshire 250 198 Derby South 1,188 773 Elmet and Rothwell 291 244 Derbyshire Dales 527 498 Great Grimsby 437 299 Erewash 487 458 Halifax 567 411 Gainsborough 311 264 Haltemprice and 137 134 Gedling 295 213 Howden Grantham and 564 466 Harrogate and 749 621 Stamford Knaresborough Harborough 369 347 Hemsworth 272 238 Huddersfield 544 420 High Peak 318 282 Keighley 362 276 Kettering 745 681 Kingston upon Hull 160 90 Leicester East 352 339 East Leicester South 1,444 910 Kingston upon Hull 123 94 Leicester West 436 385 North Lincoln 959 634 Kingston upon Hull 606 387 Loughborough 607 564 West and Hessle Louth and 630 494 Leeds Central 2,550 2,045 Horncastle Leeds East 243 161 Mansfield 609 482 Leeds North East 189 139 Mid Derbyshire 302 233 Leeds North West 353 338 Newark 839 688 Leeds West 275 195 North East 223 218 Morley and Outwood 526 402 Derbyshire WA 89 Written Answers[28 JUNE 2012] Written Answers WA 90

Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary Constituency, May 2012 Constituency, May 2012

North West 947 884 Shrewsbury and 567 499 Leicestershire Atcham Northampton North 225 216 Solihull 1,050 883 Northampton South 1,007 518 South Staffordshire 533 503 Nottingham East 694 377 Stafford 693 569 Nottingham North 224 208 Staffordshire 184 184 Nottingham South 1,436 1,096 Moorlands Rushcliffe 633 576 Stoke-on-Trent 760 579 Central Rutland and Melton 540 524 Stoke-on-Trent North 482 446 Sherwood 493 482 Stoke-on-Trent South 786 737 Sleaford and North 668 580 Hykeham Stone 687 625 South Derbyshire 410 316 Stourbridge 349 331 South Holland and 404 382 Stratford-on-Avon 735 670 The Deepings Sutton Coldfield 317 211 South Leicestershire 1,142 1,087 Tamworth 647 558 South 648 584 Telford 758 569 Northamptonshire The Wrekin 387 369 Wellingborough 1,126 497 Walsall North 596 492 West Midlands Walsall South 459 351 Aldridge-Brownhills 453 450 Warley 364 305 Birmingham, 521 424 Warwick and 703 471 Edgbaston Leamington Birmingham, 494 437 West Bromwich East 310 235 Erdington West Bromwich West 825 806 Birmingham, Hall 321 307 West Worcestershire 396 343 Green Wolverhampton 838 613 Birmingham, Hodge 259 232 North East Hill Wolverhampton 520 477 Birmingham, 2,372 1,645 South East Ladywood Wolverhampton 254 185 Birmingham, 239 228 South West Northfield Worcester 653 552 Birmingham, Perry 285 236 Wyre Forest 493 403 Barr Birmingham, Selly 320 244 East of England Oak Basildon and 452 322 Birmingham, Yardley 557 471 Billericay Bromsgrove 594 556 Bedford 550 412 Burton 642 541 Braintree 630 442 Cannock Chase 531 383 Brentwood and 364 317 Ongar Coventry North East 784 559 Broadland 436 332 Coventry North West 376 318 Broxbourne 604 540 Coventry South 1,404 943 Bury St Edmunds 652 483 Dudley North 383 328 Cambridge 1,254 959 Dudley South 369 350 Castle Point 189 173 Halesowen and 512 401 Rowley Regis Central Suffolk and 337 257 North Ipswich Hereford and South 398 324 Herefordshire Chelmsford 745 554 Kenilworth and 644 482 Clacton 382 365 Southam Colchester 829 751 Lichfield 793 764 Epping Forest 469 293 Ludlow 380 321 Great Yarmouth 348 331 Meriden 512 440 Harlow 425 358 Mid Worcestershire 840 775 Harwich and North 363 355 Newcastle-under- 665 549 Essex Lyme Hemel Hempstead 623 596 North Herefordshire 224 194 Hertford and 497 409 North Shropshire 481 426 Stortford North Warwickshire 1,111 822 Hertsmere 360 352 Nuneaton 375 333 Hitchin and 287 210 Redditch 526 465 Harpenden Rugby 622 514 Huntingdon 692 603 WA 91 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 92

Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary Constituency, May 2012 Constituency, May 2012

Ipswich 579 403 Camberwell and 254 231 Luton North 85 77 Peckham Luton South 681 491 Carshalton and 156 143 Wallington Maldon 271 177 Chelsea and Fulham 296 259 Mid Bedfordshire 232 195 Chingford and 235 224 Mid Norfolk 186 178 Woodford Green North East 244 182 Chipping Barnet 185 157 Bedfordshire Cities of London and 3,501 3,222 North East 338 189 Westminster Cambridgeshire Croydon Central 531 433 North East 399 324 Hertfordshire Croydon North 359 252 North Norfolk 383 358 Croydon South 282 271 North West 764 610 Dagenham and 304 275 Cambridgeshire Rainham North West Norfolk 410 333 Dulwich and West 114 109 Norwood Norwich North 534 480 Ealing Central and 606 533 Norwich South 952 776 Acton Peterborough 952 657 Ealing North 259 255 Rayleigh and 149 130 Ealing, Southall 222 218 Wickford East Ham 376 345 Rochford and 439 338 Southend East Edmonton 326 237 Saffron Walden 487 396 Eltham 57 55 South Basildon and 217 199 Enfield North 578 551 East Thurrock Enfield, Southgate 204 99 South 491 429 Erith and 344 271 Cambridgeshire Thamesmead South East 526 368 Feltham and Heston 435 325 Cambridgeshire Finchley and Golders 250 158 South Norfolk 426 330 Green South Suffolk 325 265 Greenwich and 1,254 1,138 South West 511 467 Woolwich Bedfordshire Hackney North and 125 76 Stoke Newington South West 216 197 Hertfordshire Hackney South and 406 374 Shoreditch South West Norfolk 377 290 Hammersmith 511 421 Southend West 222 194 Hampstead and 201 188 St Albans 667 558 Kilburn Stevenage 923 538 Harrow East 190 163 Suffolk Coastal 577 459 Harrow West 302 251 Thurrock 659 581 Hayes and 784 740 Watford 683 545 Harlington Waveney 348 215 Hendon 513 445 Welwyn Hatfield 574 521 Holborn and St 911 737 Pancras West Suffolk 581 389 Hornchurch and 231 212 Witham 414 343 Upminster London Hornsey and Wood 107 104 Green Barking 464 345 Ilford North 224 195 Battersea 219 202 Ilford South 312 234 Beckenham 98 82 Islington North 135 125 Bermondsey and Old 712 546 Southwark Islington South and 576 522 Finsbury Bethnal Green and 407 384 Bow Kensington 234 213 Bexleyheath and 473 408 Kingston and 493 448 Crayford Surbiton Brent Central 467 422 Lewisham East 412 340 Brent North 267 223 Lewisham West and 219 208 Penge Brentford and 564 492 Isleworth Lewisham, Deptford 350 337 Bromley and 356 314 Leyton and Wanstead 181 146 Chislehurst Mitcham and Morden 205 166 WA 93 Written Answers[28 JUNE 2012] Written Answers WA 94

Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary Constituency, May 2012 Constituency, May 2012

Old Bexley and 108 88 Guildford 925 840 Sidcup Hastings and Rye 424 260 Orpington 162 116 Havant 480 358 Poplar and 306 282 Henley 373 300 Limehouse Horsham 510 439 Putney 144 143 Hove 410 264 Richmond Park 262 254 Isle of Wight 457 243 Romford 735 649 Lewes 746 202 Ruislip, Northwood 106 85 Maidenhead 440 296 and Pinner Maidstone and The 589 502 Streatham 148 139 Weald Sutton and Cheam 172 139 Meon Valley 312 277 Tooting 96 91 Mid Sussex 608 428 Tottenham 375 318 Milton Keynes North 989 810 Twickenham 318 270 Milton Keynes South 566 496 Uxbridge and South 455 427 Mole Valley 438 355 Ruislip New Forest East 456 419 Vauxhall 570 467 New Forest West 427 390 Walthamstow 317 286 Newbury 1,094 998 West Ham 1,484 1,424 North East 278 268 Westminster North 123 123 Hampshire Wimbledon 324 260 North Thanet 275 248 South East North West 622 578 Aldershot 695 665 Hampshire Arundel and South 729 169 Oxford East 1,398 1,133 Downs Oxford West and 831 701 Ashford 505 389 Abingdon Aylesbury 664 553 Portsmouth North 457 324 Banbury 795 721 Portsmouth South 974 662 Basingstoke 659 591 Reading East 734 569 Beaconsfield 631 610 Reading West 378 338 Bexhill and Battle 265 206 Reigate 574 444 Bognor Regis and 841 316 Rochester and Strood 425 343 Littlehampton Romsey and 389 371 Bracknell 400 330 Southampton North Brighton, Kemptown 623 219 Runnymede and 794 497 Weybridge Brighton, Pavilion 403 356 Sevenoaks 578 550 Buckingham 329 276 Sittingbourne and 371 324 Canterbury 637 566 Sheppey Chatham and 397 356 Slough 806 781 Aylesford South Thanet 527 422 Chesham and 262 227 Amersham South West Surrey 359 319 Chichester 1,280 475 Southampton, Itchen 1,058 634 Crawley 1,094 830 Southampton, Test 665 539 Dartford 845 683 Spelthorne 487 353 Dover 274 208 Surrey Heath 480 373 East Hampshire 397 313 Tonbridge and 367 344 Malling East Surrey 428 387 Tunbridge Wells 515 465 East Worthing and 431 149 Shoreham Wantage 601 537 Eastbourne 653 256 Wealden 496 241 Eastleigh 498 416 Winchester 604 460 Epsom and Ewell 437 383 Windsor 642 599 Esher and Walton 453 345 Witney 541 452 Fareham 690 393 Woking 427 381 Faversham and Mid 512 495 Wokingham 414 390 Kent Worthing West 610 250 Folkestone and Hythe 396 381 Wycombe 500 441 Gillingham and 96 76 Rainham South West Gosport 345 222 Bath 719 599 Gravesham 448 415 Bournemouth East 760 448 WA 95 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 96

Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary Constituency, May 2012 Constituency, May 2012

Bournemouth West 1,036 669 Wales Bridgwater and West 657 508 Somerset Ynys Mon 182 171 Delyn 263 228 Bristol East 298 294 Alyn and Deeside 719 705 Bristol North West 869 833 Wrexham 669 548 Bristol South 550 506 Llanelli 256 195 Bristol West 1,406 1,122 Gower 216 188 Camborne and 248 226 Redruth Swansea West 948 688 Central Devon 270 256 Swansea East 745 724 Cheltenham 563 475 Aberavon 310 257 Chippenham 406 314 Cardiff Central 684 598 Christchurch 389 368 Cardiff North 237 174 Devizes 190 170 Rhondda 187 47 East Devon 606 546 Torfaen 367 294 Exeter 1,171 831 Monmouth 342 311 Filton and Bradley 527 501 Newport East 230 222 Stoke Newport West 559 400 Forest of Dean 169 160 Arfon 231 226 Gloucester 558 429 Aberconwy 218 199 Kingswood 292 186 Clwyd West 421 389 Mid Dorset and 407 383 Vale of Clwyd 300 267 North Poole Dwyfor Meirionnydd 294 290 Newton Abbot 691 518 Clwyd South 151 135 North Cornwall 408 354 Montgomeryshire 271 263 North Devon 430 387 Ceredigion 200 173 North Dorset 276 272 Preseli Pembrokeshire 209 168 North East Somerset 179 154 Carmarthen West and 462 391 North Somerset 714 685 South Pembrokeshire North Swindon 473 412 Carmarthen East and 179 128 North Wiltshire 205 179 Dinefwr Plymouth, Moor 177 170 Brecon and 294 270 View Radnorshire Plymouth, Sutton 767 455 Neath 208 137 and Devonport Cynon Valley 224 152 Poole 842 703 Merthyr Tydfil and 182 159 Rhymney Salisbury 719 423 Blaenau Gwent 290 196 Somerton and Frome 295 228 Bridgend 989 410 South Dorset 985 822 Ogmore 343 136 South East Cornwall 201 175 Pontypridd 307 209 South Swindon 643 484 Caerphilly 329 239 South West Devon 327 287 Islwyn 219 176 South West Wiltshire 350 276 Vale of Glamorgan 437 277 St Austell and 629 454 Cardiff West 329 190 Newquay Cardiff South and 616 486 St Ives 292 229 Penarth Stroud 355 322 Scotland Taunton Deane 771 630 Aberdeen North 514 460 Tewkesbury 441 396 Aberdeen South 725 608 The Cotswolds 299 287 Airdrie and Shotts 118 111 Thornbury and Yate 617 550 Angus 268 245 Tiverton and 563 512 Honiton Argyll and Bute 241 237 Torbay 591 452 Ayr, Carrick and 159 147 Cumnock Torridge and West 218 192 Devon Banff and Buchan 171 153 Totnes 335 236 Berwickshire, 182 167 Roxburgh and Selkirk Truro and Falmouth 664 554 Caithness, Sutherland 84 76 Wells 511 469 and Easter Ross West Dorset 554 420 Central Ayrshire 193 191 Weston-Super-Mare 428 350 Coatbridge, Chryston 370 337 Yeovil 343 272 and Bellshill WA 97 Written Answers[28 JUNE 2012] Written Answers WA 98

Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary Table 1: Number of live unfilled Jobcentre Plus vacancies by Parliamentary Constituency, May 2012 Constituency, May 2012

Cumbernauld, 195 178 Ross,Skyeand 142 125 Kilsyth and Lochaber Kirkintilloch East Rutherglen and 200 165 Dumfries and 252 202 Hamilton West Galloway Stirling 262 238 Dumfriesshire, 183 179 West Aberdeenshire 339 326 Clydesdale and and Kincardine Tweeddale West Dunbartonshire 192 179 Dundee East 156 111 Total 18,457 15,784 Dundee West 496 361 Dunfermline and 391 360 Source: West Fife Jobcentre Plus Administrative System East Dunbartonshire 140 122 East Kilbride, 300 235 Strathaven and Finance: Gilts Lesmahagow Question East Lothian 351 334 East Renfrewshire 132 94 Asked by Lord Higgins Edinburgh East 663 504 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Edinburgh North and 544 459 total value of the gilt-edged securities purchased Leith by the Bank of England as part of its policy of Edinburgh South 175 164 quantitative easing; what is the annual income from Edinburgh South 475 441 those assets; and how those assets are treated in the West Bank of England’s accounts. [HL826] Edinburgh West 541 476 Falkirk 383 320 The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Glasgow Central 1,218 1,021 Sassoon): Quantitative easing is implemented through Glasgow East 174 153 the Asset Purchase Facility (APF). APF transactions Glasgow North 152 104 are undertaken by a subsidiary company of the Bank Glasgow North East 183 148 of England, the Bank of England Asset Purchase Glasgow North West 385 378 Facility Fund Ltd (BEAPFF). As the Bank of England Glasgow South 407 321 annual report explains, the BEAPFF accounts are not Glasgow South West 397 308 consolidated in the Bank’s financial statements, as the Glenrothes 247 191 Bank has no economic interest in its activities. The Gordon 279 265 BEAPFF borrows from the Bank to pay for the purchases Inverclyde 228 136 it makes. The Bank’s loan to the BEAPFF appears as Inverness, Nairn, 570 519 an asset on the balance sheet of the banking department Badenoch and of the Bank of England. Strathspey To ensure that the BEAPFF is operated in an open Kilmarnock and 225 194 and transparent manner, the Bank publishes a quarterly Loudoun report on the transactions as part of the facility and Kirkcaldy and 292 256 an annual report which contains the financial statement Cowdenbeath of the facility. These can be found on the bank of Lanark and Hamilton 249 197 East England’s website: http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/ markets/Pages/apf/default.aspx. Linlithgow and East 360 283 Falkirk The BEAPFF has purchased £325 billion of gilts to Livingston 709 595 date, details of which, including the nominal value of Midlothian 243 216 the gilts, coupon rates and maturities of the specific Moray 226 216 gilts held, are also available on the Bank’s website. Motherwell and 261 200 The 2010-11 BEAPFF annual report stated that the Wishaw BEAPFF held £11.8 billion of cash holdings at the Na h-Eileanan An Iar 41 41 balance sheet date, primarily representing coupons North Ayrshire and 138 136 received (2010: £3.8 billion). Arran The 2011-12 BEAPFF annual report will be published North East Fife 497 349 in due course. Ochil and South 235 219 Perthshire Food: Retailers Orkney and Shetland 76 69 Questions Paisley and 501 445 Renfrewshire North Asked by Lord Harrison Paisley and 280 207 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Renfrewshire South will review competition policy to ensure that it Perth and North 347 312 supports retail diversity and entry to markets for Perthshire new food businesses. [HL993] WA 99 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 100

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Defra support for local food chain initiatives in for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): England has come mainly from the Rural Development Following a review and consultation in 2011, the Government Programme for England (RDPE). This funding has announced reforms to the public competition framework supported initiatives including support for local food on 15 March 2012, which will help businesses, consumers marketing linked to tourism activity, individual food and the economy.As part of the Enterprise and Regulatory producers and retail outlets, food hubs and farmers’ Reform Bill, we now intend to create a single Competition markets. Support will continue to be available through andMarketsAuthority(CMA)andmoderniseitscompetition the new RDPE nationally consistent schemes. toolkit with the aim of: Last September, we published the Social Enterprise improving the quality of decisions and strengthening Action Research (SEAR) Report on Community Food the regime; Enterprises. This report (co-funded by Defra and the supporting the competition authorities in taking Cabinet Office) confirmed that across the country forward the right competition there are a range of local food groups of different sizes cases; and and membership emerging, often bringing together improving the speed and predictability for business. growers, processors and small food businesses. We It will be for the CMA, as responsible competition welcome the development of these groups and the authority, to decide where to prioritise its resources. many benefits they can bring to producers and the The Government are committed to supporting high local community, particularly to support local growth, streets and town centres, as evidenced by our response but recognise that with the recent changes to the regional to the recommendations of the Mary Portas review of tier and closure of RDAs, it is for local communities the high street, published on 30 March 2012. In addition, and local economic partnerships to decide where and the new National Planning Policy Framework, published how initiatives of this nature develop. by the Government on 26 March 2012, states that, in It is for local authorities to take the strategic decisions drawing up local plans, local planning authorities that are best for them and their areas. The National should promote competitive town centres that provide Planning Policy Framework, which came into effect customer choice and a diverse retail offer. on 27 March, requires local planning authorities to Asked by Lord Harrison take into account the economic and other benefits of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent the best and most versatile agricultural land when discussions Ministers have had with large retailers making planning decisions. The Government are on provision of local food in stores. [HL994] considering how to take forward planning guidance across a range of matters. In deciding whether new The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department guidance is needed to support operation of the framework, for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor we will have regard to all the submissions about guidance of Holbeach): The Government encourage the provision which came in as part of the response to last year’s of regional and local food in retailer stores at every consultation on national planning policy. opportunity. Retailers respond to the demands of their customers. Growing consumer demand for local food Food: Sustainable Food is reflected in the increasing availability of regional Question and local food in the stores of all the major retailers. Asked by Lord Harrison The Government want to enhance the competitiveness and resilience of the whole food chain to ensure a To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, as secure, environmentally sustainable and healthy supply part of their review of planning guidance, they will of food with improved standards of animal welfare. consider new guidance to provide stronger support The Government’s principal role is encouraging and for a sustainable food system. [HL995] enabling to ensure we have a thriving, competitive and sustainable agri-food sector rather than directing the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department commercial decisions taken by specific retailers. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach): The Government are considering how to take forward planning guidance across a range of Food: Strategy matters. In doing so we are considering carefully all of Question the submissions that have been made in response to Asked by Lord Harrison our consultation on the draft national planning policy To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support framework which asked for views about supporting and guidance they are providing to local authorities guidance. to help them deliver food strategies. [HL996] Government Departments: Apprentices The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Questions for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach): I recognise the benefits that the marketing Asked by Lord Adonis of regional and local food can bring to both producers To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the and consumers alike and we want to encourage innovation total number of staff employed within the private in the sector. Recently, Defra and the Technology offices of ministers and the permanent secretary at Strategy Board held an innovation summit to increase HM Treasury on 1 June; and how many of them awareness of the innovation support mechanisms which were (1) under the age of 21, (2) apprentices under are available to the food micro, small and medium the age of 21, and (3) apprentices over the age of 21. sized businesses. [HL905] WA 101 Written Answers[28 JUNE 2012] Written Answers WA 102

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Pensions apprentices (1) under the age of 21, and (2) over the Question age of 21, were employed within HM Treasury on 1 June, excluding agencies and non-departmental Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham public bodies. [HL906] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much was spent in the latest year for which figures are The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord available on publicising and advertising the policy Sassoon): Over recent years, HM Treasury has not that United Kingdom citizens in receipt of a state employed apprentices. This Government want this to pension whilst resident in countries where that pension change. It will be actively supporting the new government is not uprated can claim a temporary uprating to scheme. A recent apprentice recruitment campaign cover the period of their visit to the United Kingdom has resulted in five new recruits, all of whom are under or another country where pension levels are uprated; the age of 21. and whether they propose to include relevant contact On 1 June 2012, there were 37 staff employed in the details for such claims in United Kingdom passports. private offices of Ministers and the Permanent Secretary [HL943] at HM Treasury. None was an apprentice or under the age of 21. Apprentices have been recruited to fill The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department existing vacancies. At the present time, none will be for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): Where a person placed in Ministers’ private offices. claimed a UK pension from overseas, a leaflet was included with the entitlement notice. This leaflet gave specific information on the availability of uprates for Government Departments: Interns periods of temporary residence in the UK and certain Question other countries. Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough This leaflet was removed in 2011. However, the same information is now included in the notice of To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many entitlement issued when a UK pension is awarded. interns were taken on by each government department Information on all aspects of payment of UK pensions in (1) 2009–10, (2) 2010–11, and (3) 2011–12. overseas is available from the DWP’s international pension [HL948] centre. The contact details are available on the Direct.gov websiteat:http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/DI1/Directories/Useful Baroness Warsi: The Civil Service Fast Stream Summer ContactsByCategory/Over50sContacts/DG_178684. Diversity Programme placed 118 interns into departments No information on the expenditure involved, in 2009-10, 74 in 2010-11 and 129 interns in 2011-12. concerning the leaflet and dealing with queries, is In 2010-11 the Summer Diversity Programme was available. complemented by two further programmes to form The Identity and Passport Service has no plans to the Cross-Whitehall Internship Programme. The two include pension information in United Kingdom week programme for year 12 college students placed passports. 62 interns into departments. The one day internship event for year 9 students provided 97 students with an Prosperity Fund overview of the Civil Service to raise students’ aspirations. Question Outside this programme, departments may run their own schemes or offer placements. As this would be a Asked by Lord Donoughue matter for individual departments to determine, a To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much figure is not held centrally. the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has spent In 2012 the Deputy Prime Minister launched the through the Prosperity Fund throughout the various social mobility strategy, “Opening Doors, Breaking countries where it operates. [HL879] Barriers”. The cross-Whitehall Internship Programme reduces barriers that prevent young people from The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth participating by providing successful residential candidates Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Prosperity with accommodation, travel and a weekly training Fund seeks to advance our prosperity agenda by opening allowance for the duration of their placement. markets, ensuring access to resources and promoting sustainable global growth in key emerging markets. In 2011-12, the fund’s first year, the Prosperity Fund Overseas Territories allocated 98% of its £19,402,080 spend to the following Question 14 target markets and multipliers:

Asked by Lord Ashcroft China £4,703,535 To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they Brazil £3,566,111 intend to publish their White Paper on the overseas India £2,426,108 Mexico £ 1,899,944 territories. [HL814] South Africa £ 1,443,197 Indonesia £997,111 The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Wider Latin America £842,439 Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): I refer the noble Russia £498,118 Lord to the Written Ministerial Statement made today. WA 103 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 104

South East Asia £652,903 cost of funding is defined as the average yield on gilt Middle East (Saudi Arabia, the £499,385 issuance in the six months prior to the disbursement of Gulf and Ira) a tranche. Organisation for Economic £551,799 This is subject to the loan agreement being revised Co-operation and Development to reflect the new rate. Once the loan agreement has Outreach programme (Iraq, been revised, the new interest rate will apply retrospectively Kazakhstan, Egypt and Tunisia) to those tranches of the loan already disbursed. The Turkey £342,073 Financial Secretary has committed to update Parliament Japan £301,279 once the revised loan agreement has been signed and South Korea £262,565 finalised. The bilateral loan to Ireland is drawn in eight The remaining 2% financed a range of other ad tranches, each with a 7.5 year term and with repayment hoc, smaller projects in a number of countries including of principal in full at the maturity date. the UK. In the six months to 15 June 2012, the Debt Management Office issued conventional gilts with an Railways: BRB (Residuary) Ltd average nominal yield of 2.000% and index-linked Question gilts with an average real yield of 0.022%. Asked by Lord Berkeley Schools: Academies To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Question the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 18 June Asked by Lord Hoyle (WA279), what is the cost of transferring landholdings from BRB (Residuary) Ltd to London and Continental To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Railways Ltd; and what interest the latter has in the endorse the establishment of academies in cases site in Uckfield, West Sussex. [HL930] where there is no proven need for an additional school. [HL598] Earl Attlee: The transfer of landholdings from BRB (Residuary) (BRBR) to London and Continental Railways The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Limited (LCR) will not incur any specific cost beyond Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): This Government that already due to be incurred in the abolition of endorse the establishment of free schools, (which are BRBR. As a residuary board, it has always been the legally academies) wherever there is clear local parental Government’s intention to wind-up BRBR at the demand for them. Evidence of parental demand is one appropriate time. To do so now, by way of the Public of the key criteria upon which free school applications Bodies Act 2011, means that this can be achieved are assessed. without incurring the significant conveyancing costs that would be involved in a private transfer to LCR. Schools: Free Schools LCR currently has no property interest in the Uckfield Questions site. Asked by Lord Hoyle To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the Republic of Ireland: Financial Support health and safety obligations which need to be met Question by all free schools opening in September with regard Asked by Lord Laird to (1) science laboratories, (2) design and technology workshops, (3) canteens, (4) emergency access, and To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to (5) disabled access. [HL593] the Written Statement by Lord Sassoon on 11 June (WS 120), what are the current, past and proposed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for rates of interest charged on the bilateral loan to the Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): As academies, free Republic of Ireland, the repayment arrangements, schools have to comply with the same health and and the current interest rate charges the United safety regulations as all schools, including requirements Kingdom is paying on the markets for loans. relating to science laboratories, design and technology [HL790] workshops, canteens, and emergency access/means of escape. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord The Equalities Act 2010 requires all schools, including Sassoon): The interest rate on the UK bilateral loan to free schools, to prepare and implement an accessibility Ireland is as set out in the loan agreement the Financial strategy to improve the physical environment of the Secretary to the Treasury deposited in the Library of school for pupils with disabilities and special educational the House in January 2011. The rate of interest currently needs (SEN). applicable to each tranche of the loan is equal to the Asked by Lord Hoyle 7.5 year sterling swap rate, plus a margin of 2.29%. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury announced To ask Her Majesty’s Government which subjects on 11 June 2012 that the Treasury has agreed in must be taught at free schools. [HL595] principle to a new, lower interest rate on the UK To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the bilateral loan. The new rate will represent the UK’s minimum number of hours for which any obligatory cost of funds plus a small service fee of 0.18%. The UK’s subject must be taught at free schools. [HL596] WA 105 Written Answers[28 JUNE 2012] Written Answers WA 106

Lord Hill of Oareford: As academies, free schools capable of sustaining the playing of team games by must offer a broad and balanced curriculum including pupils at the school for seven hours per week during English, maths and science. They must make provision term time. There is no specific national curriculum for the teaching of religious education and for a daily requirement for the access of pupils aged 11-16 to act of collective worship. We do not prescribe the school playing fields for physical education. number of hours for any subject.

Schools: Meals Schools: Teachers Question Questions Asked by Lord Beecham Asked by Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Hill of Oareford on the Written Answer by Lord Hill of Oareford on 14 December 2011 (WA276–7) concerning nutritional 12 March (WA 30), how they calculated their standards in academies and free schools, what response provisional estimate for 2009–10; and when they they have received from the School Food Trust; and expect official figures to be available. [HL587] whether, in the light of any such response and of representations recently made by Jamie Oliver and others, they will take steps to require academies and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for free schools to comply with the guidance applied to Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The source of the all other state schools. [HL315] information provided on 12 March in response to (WA 30) for 2009-10 was derived from the database of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for teacher records. This is an administrative data source Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The School Food that is collected primarily for pensions’ administration Trust has now undertaken a qualitative study for the purposes. This department receives an extract of the department of the provision of school food in a mixture database each year from the administrators of the of established and new academies, including one free Teachers’Pensions Scheme for statistical analysis purposes. school. The study examined the quality of provision in It is used to show the numbers of teachers who are in academies and the attitudes and intentions of the service at March of each year in publicly funded sector. schools and other institutions and who are members of the Teachers’ Pensions Scheme. Each extract includes The report on the study, published on 15 May 2012, information for three years. The latest extract received showed that all of the academies interviewed identified includes information for March 2008, 2009 and 2010 food as an important part of overall education provision. and the information for March 2009 and 2010 is Some academies go over and above the minimum regarded as provisional because it is still liable to requirements and are offering their pupils high quality, change as further teacher records are received. It is nutritional food. As with the maintained sector, however, only the information for the oldest year (March 2008 there is room for further improvement. The Secondary on this extract) that is not regarded as provisional School Food Survey, published by the School Food because after two years all the potential revisions/updates Trust on 28 April, shows there are still too many have been received. In consequence the most recent schools that do not regularly provide a sufficiently two years presented, 2008-09 and 2009-10, were marked balanced offering despite the standards. as provisional. The statistics are published following The department wants all pupils to have the the Official Statistics Code of Practice and are deemed opportunity to select a healthy, balanced school lunch. to be National Statistics. We will therefore consider this new evidence—and The figures provided for 2008-09 and 2009-10 are that from the trust’s Secondary School Food Survey—to also marked as estimates because the data source is determine how best to achieve this policy aim. incomplete. The department’s statisticians investigate further the records of those teachers for whom it is unclear whether they are still in service to bring the Schools: Physical Education total recorded in service on the database of teacher Question records in line with other trusted, published sources. Asked by Lord Hoyle This is to ensure that the analysis of teacher turnover for these years is not exaggerated or unreliable due to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the any incompleteness of the data. requirements for the access of pupils aged 11–16 to The final version of the database of teacher records school playing fields for physical education. [HL597] information for March 2010 is likely to become available in summer 2013 and the final version of turnover The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for figures for 2009-20 will be available at that time. Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): School playing fields The department is working towards replacing the at maintained schools are governed by the School turnover figures provided by the database of teacher Premises Regulations (England) 1999. Minimum areas records with information from the school workforce of team game playing fields must be provided in census. Work is currently being undertaken to link schools with pupils over the age of eight years. The individual teachers’ records from the November 2010 grassed area of team game playing fields must be census with the November 2011 census. WA 107 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 108

Teacher turnover rates are calculated by counting 12 March (WA 30), what was the teacher retention all teachers recorded in full or part-time service in the rate by type of state school in England for the past English publicly funded sector in March who were not five years. [HL588] in similar service or in the same establishment in March of the year before. Turnover therefore includes Lord Hill of Oareford: The following table shows teacher wastage (ie those who had left service in the the percentage of teachers who remained in service in publicly funded schools sector in England), transfers the English publicly funded schools sector by type of to other establishments within the publicly funded school for each of the past five years for which figures schools sector and teachers leaving from full to part-time are available. service or vice versa. Teacher retention has been defined as those teachers Asked by Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne in full or part-time service in the English publicly funded schools sector at 31 March who remained in To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to such service at 31 March of the year after. Teachers in the Written Answer by Lord Hill of Oareford on supply service are excluded.

Retention1 rates of qualified teachers in publicly funded schools by sector. Years: 2005-06 to 2009-10 Coverage: England (Percentages) 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008- 2009- 092 102 Full- Part- Full- Part- Full- Part- Full- Part- Full- time time3 time time3 time1 time3 time1 time3 time1 Part-time3

Sector Maintained 91.0 80.2 93.4 80.3 91.9 87.6 90.3 86.8 93.2 86.5 nursery Maintained 92.0 83.4 92.5 83.3 92.5 84.9 92.5 85.5 93.3 84.6 primary Maintained 91.8 80.6 92.4 78.6 92.5 82.0 92.8 83.3 93.3 82.7 secondary Maintained 92.0 83.2 92.2 81.5 92.6 85.9 92.9 83.6 93.1 82.9 special Pupil referral 89.0 84.3 89.1 76.9 90.6 83.9 91.8 84.0 90.0 83.8 units Academies 90.6 .. 91.8 .. 92.1 .. 92.3 83.8 92.5 82.3 All Sectors4° 91.9 82.2 92.5 81.2 92.5 83.7 92.6 84.5 93.3 83.7

Source: The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Database of Teacher Records. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Foreign and 1. Retention is defined as all teachers in full or part-time service Commonwealth Office (FCO) does not hold data on in the English publicly funded schools sector at 31 March who the number of people convicted or charged for these remained in such service at 31 March of the year after. It crimes. We can, however, provide data on the number excludes those in supply service. Teachers who moved from full to part-time service or vice-versa or to other schools in the of British nationals brought to our attention for having English publicly funded sector are excluded. been arrested or detained for child sex offences overseas. 2. Provisional estimates. The table below shows those cases which we were notified of in south and south-east Asia. 3. 10-20% of part-time teachers may not be included in the data. 4. Figures prior to 2008-09 may vary from published figures Number of Arrest/Detention— because academies have been included. Financial Year Child Sex Cases Opened .. Not available, there were insufficient cases and therefore the rate may not be reliable. 08-09 13 09-10 14 10-11 10 11-12 8 Total 45 Sex Offences: Overseas Question The Home Office is conducting a review of how Asked by Lord Hylton details of UK nationals convicted and imprisoned overseas are captured and recorded on the UK police To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many national computer. The FCO is contributing to this British citizens or residents have been (1) charged, exercise. The FCO is also working with the Association and (2) convicted, of sexual offences against children of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) Criminal Records in South and South-east Asia in the most recent Office on a pilot scheme to improve information sharing four years, in either local or British courts. [HL862] on serious notifiable offences we are made aware of. WA 109 Written Answers[28 JUNE 2012] Written Answers WA 110

South Sudan A full list of these exclusions is available on the Question HMRC website at: www.hmrc.gov.uk/ebu/2012-exc- indi.pdf but include: Asked by Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne taxpayers whose particular circumstances mean To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light that they need to complete special tax return pages of South Sudan’s Parliament having voted to suspend which are not available online; and at least 75 Government officials for alleged theft of taxpayers whose records are dealt with under separate at least £2.6 billion, whether they are investigating arrangements where their tax reference number will whether any United Kingdom funding may have not be recognised by the authentication system. been misappropriated as part of this sum. [HL1059] These taxpayers are not able to file online as the number involved would make it disproportionately Baroness Northover: The UK does not directly channel costly to develop the necessary forms and links to any money through the Government in South Sudan. HMRC computer systems. In South Sudan we route funds through non-governmental organisations, private sector firms and multilateral Teachers: Training agencies that have robust financial management systems. We have not seen any evidence to suggest that UK Question funding may have been misappropriated by South Asked by Lord Storey Sudanese Government officials and therefore no investigations are currently planned. As donor lead on To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to accountability and transparency, we are working to the Written Answer by Lord Hill of Oareford on help South Sudan tackle corruption, for example through 16 March (WA 124), for each year between 2006 work to clean the payroll, strengthen financial and 2011, how many trainees from (1) graduate management systems and support the anti-corruption teacher programmes, (2) higher education institutions, institutions. Should any evidence come to light to and (3) school-centred initial teacher training suggest that government officials have misused UK programmes, dropped out of their initial teacher funding, we would launch an investigation. training course. [HL767]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Taxation: Tax Returns Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The number of initial Question teacher training (ITT) trainees who leave their course Asked by Lord Higgins at any point within their training is not collected centrally. To ask Her Majesty’s Government under what Complete data are collected for the number of circumstances UK taxpayers are not allowed to trainees in England who leave their course during their submit their tax returns using HM Revenue and final year. The number of initial teacher training Customs’ online service, but are required to submit (ITT) trainees who left (1) the graduate teacher programme a paper return. [HL827] (GTP), (2) higher education institutions (HEI) and (3) school-centred initial teacher training (SCITT) The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord before the end of their course during their final year in Sassoon): The vast majority of self assessment (SA) England are presented in Table A. The number of taxpayers can file their SA tax return online by using trainees who attained qualified teacher status (QTS) the free HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) self and had other outcomes to the final year of their assessment online service or commercial software. course in each year are also provided. However, a small proportion of SA taxpayers are not Figures for academic years 2005-06 to 2009-10 are able to file online, usually because they need to complete provided and represent the latest available information. special dedicated pages. Figures for 2010-11 are not yet available.

Table A—Outcomes of final year ITT Trainees in England by Course Type, 2005-06 to 2009-10 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

GTP Left Before End 350 310 240 280 350 of Course Attained QTS 4,600 5,140 4,820 4,970 4,940 Other Outcomes 290 210 120 170 90 HEI Left Before End 1,160 1,120 1,100 990 920 of Course Attained QTS 25,540 25,490 25,040 25,200 26,820 Other Outcomes 2,880 3,100 2,760 2,750 2,670 SCITT Left Before End 140 130 110 100 130 of Course Attained QTS 1,470 1,490 1,430 1,450 1,600 Other Outcomes 30 20 30 30 20 WA 111 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 112

Table A—Outcomes of final year ITT Trainees in England by Course Type, 2005-06 to 2009-10 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Other ITT Left Before End 70 40 40 60 60 Routes of Course Attained QTS 1,490 1,970 1,690 1,500 1,320 Other Outcomes 160 160 80 100 50 Total Left Before End 1,730 1,600 1,490 1,430 1,460 of Course Attained QTS 33,100 34,090 32,980 33,110 34,680 Other Outcomes 3,360 3,500 2,980 3,050 2,830

Source: applicant or that of the applicant’s family and Teaching Agency Performance Profiles associates in the United Kingdom that it is taken 1 Numbers are individually rounded to the nearest 10 and may into account when deciding on their entitlement to not sum to the indicated total. enter or reside in the United Kingdom; and, in the 2 Other ITT routes includes the teach first programme, overseas case of family, whether different weightings are trained teachers and the registered teacher programme. applied to differing types of relationship or blood 3 Other outcomes includes all other possible outcomes for a ties. [HL886] recruit on an ITT course, such as completing their course but not passing the literacy, numeracy and information communication technology skills tests. The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): 4 HEI figures include Bradford College which is an further A visa application citing Article 8 of the European education college and not an HEI. Convention on Human Rights must meet the requirements of the Immigration Rules. The rules take account of the right to respect for family life of both the applicant Visas and the family member they are applying to join in the Question UK. The rules do not apply different weightings to Asked by Lord Laird different types of family relationship. From 9 July 2012 the rules are expected to reflect the statement of To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in considering changes laid on 13 June (Official Report, Commons, visa applications by foreign nationals citing the col. 194). The new rules will set clear requirements for European Convention on Human Rights Article 8 each category of family applicant: partner, child, parent right to a family life, whether it is the right of the and adult dependent relative. Thursday 28 June 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan...... 19 EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council ...... 23 Armed Forces: Reserve Forces...... 20 Industrial Development Act 1982 ...... 24 Care Quality Commission...... 20 National Employer Advisory Board ...... 24

Data Protection ...... 21 Overseas Territories ...... 25

Disabled People: Right to Control...... 22 Schools: Funding...... 26

Embryology ...... 22 Taxation: VAT ...... 28

Thursday 28 June 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Children: Parenting...... 81 Pensions...... 102

Civil Service: Training...... 82 Prosperity Fund...... 102

Climate Change ...... 82 Railways: BRB (Residuary) Ltd...... 103

Disabled People: Personal Independence Payments ...... 83 Republic of Ireland: Financial Support ...... 103

Education: Modern Languages...... 83 Schools: Academies ...... 104 Schools: Free Schools ...... 104 Employment: Under 25s ...... 84 Schools: Meals...... 105 Finance: Gilts ...... 98 Schools: Physical Education ...... 105 Food: Retailers ...... 98 Schools: Teachers...... 106 Food: Strategy ...... 99 Sex Offences: Overseas...... 107 Food: Sustainable Food ...... 100 South Sudan ...... 109 Government Departments: Apprentices...... 100 Taxation: Tax Returns ...... 109 Government Departments: Interns ...... 101 Teachers: Training...... 110 Overseas Territories ...... 101 Visas ...... 111 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL315] ...... 105 [HL593] ...... 104

[HL421] ...... 82 [HL595] ...... 104

[HL523] ...... 82 [HL596] ...... 104

[HL533] ...... 83 [HL597] ...... 105

[HL587] ...... 106 [HL598] ...... 104

[HL588] ...... 108 [HL710] ...... 81 Col. No. Col. No. [HL767] ...... 110 [HL943] ...... 102

[HL790] ...... 103 [HL948] ...... 101

[HL814] ...... 101 [HL985] ...... 83

[HL826] ...... 98 [HL993] ...... 98

[HL827] ...... 109 [HL994] ...... 99

[HL862] ...... 107 [HL995] ...... 100

[HL879] ...... 102 [HL996] ...... 99

[HL883] ...... 84 [HL1033] ...... 84

[HL886] ...... 112 [HL1034] ...... 84

[HL905] ...... 100 [HL1035] ...... 84

[HL906] ...... 101 [HL1041] ...... 82

[HL930] ...... 103 [HL1059] ...... 109 Volume 738 Thursday No. 24 28 June 2012

CONTENTS

Thursday 28 June 2012 Questions Economy: Deficit Reduction...... 317 Armed Forces Day ...... 319 Small and Medium-sized Enterprises: Foreign Languages...... 322 Taxation: Avoidance ...... 324 Electoral Registration and Administration Bill First Reading ...... 326 Business of the House Motion to Approve ...... 326 Draft Communications Data Bill Membership Motion ...... 326 English Cathedrals Motions to Take Note...... 327 FSA Investigation into LIBOR Statement...... 364 Education and Training: People with Hidden Disabilities Motion to Take Note ...... 376 Dementia Question for Short Debate ...... 408 Grand Committee Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL] Committee (2nd Day)...... GC 169 Written Statements...... WS 19 Written Answers...... WA 8 1