Wednesday Volume 685 9 December 2020 No. 149

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 9 December 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 825 9 DECEMBER 2020 826

have committed to exploring options for the future of House of Commons the yards and to strengthen measures to support the renewables supply chain.

Wednesday 9 December 2020 Tony Lloyd [V]: The Minister’s seeming disinterest belies the whole problem. His original words were fine. The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock The reality is that when BiFab, the only manufacturer of the steel cases for these turbines,went into administration, the Edinburgh Government and the Government PRAYERS walked hand in hand away from that situation. What does that say about the ambition to be the Saudi Arabia of offshore wind production, and what does it say to the [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] workers and the skills base at BiFab when the Government Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Order, simply abandon them? 4 June). David Duguid: The situation at BiFab is a culmination [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] of a number of issues, the main one being the unwillingness of the parent company and majority shareholder, JV Driver,to provide working capital, investment or guarantees for the company. We are determined to secure a new Oral Answers to Questions future for the yards in Fife and the Western Isles, and we will explore options for the future of these sites and, through the new working group, work with the Scottish Government to strengthen the renewables and clean SCOTLAND energy supply chain.

The Secretary of State was asked— DavidMundell(Dumfriesshire,ClydesdaleandTweeddale) (Con): Does my hon. Friend share my disappointment Green Industrial Jobs at the SNP Scottish Government’s continued dogmatic opposition to nuclear power, despite the fact that in Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab): What recent recent weeks it has been the leading source of zero carbon discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on generation in the UK? Does he agree with me that the promoting green industrial jobs in Scotland. [909869] refusal to contemplate a replacement of the Chapelcross power station at Annan in my constituency is depriving Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab): What recent discussions the area of the high-quality green jobs from which it has he has had with Cabinet colleagues on promoting green benefited from the last 60 years? industrial jobs in Scotland. [909890] David Duguid: It will come as no surprise that I do The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland share my right hon. Friend’s disappointment. This (David Duguid): The Secretary of State for Scotland Government believe that nuclear has an important role meets Cabinet colleagues regularly to discuss all matters to play in reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Nuclear of importance to Scotland. This Government are committed power stations provide the dependable, low-carbon power to levelling up across the whole , and that is required to complement renewable energy to ensure that is why the Prime Minister has set out his ambitious a low-cost, reliable, diverse generating mix to meet our 10-point plan for our green industrial revolution, which net zero ambitions for 2020. will support up to 250,000 jobs. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab) [V]: Mr Speaker, Rachel Hopkins: The SNP has joined the Tory party this is the first Scottish questions since the Scottish football in abandoning workers at BiFab, forgoing the green team qualified for Euro 2020, so I am sure you will industrial jobs they claim to want to encourage. Within allow me to pass on my congratulations to Stevie Clarke days of the Scottish Government withdrawing their and his team for cheering up our nation, and of course support for BiFab, they launched the Scottish National we look forward to being further cheered when we win Investment Bank, stating it would support Scotland’s at Wembley in the championships in June next year. transition to zero carbon emissions. They say one thing I am sure the Minister is aware of the Proclaimers and do another. What discussions has the Secretary of song “Letter from America”, which includes the line State had with Scottish Ministers about protecting jobs “Methil no more”, and that is what the decision of his at BiFab and developing a green supply chain in Scotland and the Scottish Governments have delivered in reality to facilitate the expansion of its offshore wind capacity? for that community in Fife. Just a few weeks ago, the Prime Minister announced that he was launching a David Duguid: After exploring all options, both the 10-point plan for a green industrial revolution that UK and Scottish Governments have concluded that would deliver a quarter of a million new green jobs. I there is currently no legal right to provide further financial did not of course realise he meant jobs that were support to BiFab in its current form. A joint working overseas. Can the Minister inform the House how many group will be formed between the Scottish and UK current and potential green jobs will be lost following Governments to consider ways to strengthen the renewables the Scottish and UK Governments’ joint decision, in supply chain in Scotland and to secure future possibilities the words of the Scottish Trades Union Congress, to and opportunities. Both of Scotland’s Governments collude to “pull support” from BiFab in Fife? 827 Oral Answers 9 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 828

David Duguid: I share the hon. Gentleman’senthusiasm. enhancing the security of the nation, and delivering As a former card-carrying member of the tartan army on the Prime Minister’s levelling-up agenda across the myself, I might be enthused about rejoining it, but being country? a member of the Whips Office, I am not sure I would always get slipped to attend the matches. Mr Jack: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. We understand from the Scottish Government, who Scotland has always played a crucial role in the UK’s are closest to the company, that there is no commercial defence, and the projects that are supported by this way forward that is compatible with state aid. The UK spending, including shipbuilding on the Clyde, will directly Government are equally bound by the state aid rules, at benefit the people of Scotland, bringing security and least for the moment, and therefore there is no legal way economic benefits. This level of spending and investment for either Government to intervene at this stage. is only possible through Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom. Ian Murray: I am sure that it will not have escaped anyone’s attention that the UK and Scottish Governments John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) have just hidden behind EU state aid rules—the irony of (Con): I very much welcome the Secretary of State’s that. The Minister did not give a figure, so let me give response, but can he set out what support the British the figure: 500 highly skilled green jobs in Scotland Army is providing to the Scottish Government to ensure abandoned. And it is not just the Tories who are to the efficient delivery of the coronavirus vaccine in my blame; unbelievably,the SNP has repeatedly hidden behind constituency in the borders, but also across Scotland the same EU state aid rule, despite initially agreeing to more widely? support BiFab and then pulling it without notice. It has Mr Jack: The Scottish Government requested a military ignored a Scottish parliamentary vote to sort it out, and planning team to assist with the planning for the roll-out on the SNP’s watch fabrication contracts for offshore of the vaccine in the borders and across Scotland, and I wind farms have recently gone almost exclusively—where? am very pleased that I was able to approve that request. —overseas. The post-covid recovery has to be about The scale of the task is very considerable, but the jobs, yet both Governments are unnecessarily abandoning logistics expertise with the British armed forces is making good clean jobs, and this Government are risking a a huge difference. disastrous no deal , which will further decimate jobs. So I ask the Minister this: the Prime Minister has Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con): The Secretary of State broken his promise of an oven-ready Brexit deal, so will be aware of the work that soldiers from Kinloss how many jobs will be lost in Scotland as a result of the barracks in Moray have done throughout this pandemic Tories delivering a no deal Brexit? in our fight against covid-19: they have been in Liverpool since last month, and earlier this week started assisting David Duguid: I have already discussed this Government’s Wirral Metropolitan Borough Council in its community commitment to the 10-point plan and the up to 250,000 testing programme. This is in addition to the work they jobs across the whole of the UK. That is still in play, but did throughout the highlands in the summer, covering this is obviously a disappointing situation, and the 80,000 miles and conducting well over 3,000 tests. Will recent revelation that a private firm bought a majority the Secretary of State join me in congratulating everyone stake in BiFab for just £4 before it went into administration at Kinloss on the effort they have put in during this raises serious questions about how the SNP Scottish pandemic, and agree that it underlines yet again the Government could pour tens of millions into a company outstanding work they do in Scotland and across the without securing that yard’s future. I agree with the United Kingdom? hon. Gentleman that this whole matter requires a proper inquiry. Mr Jack: I absolutely join my hon. Friend in thanking everyone at Kinloss barracks. At the start of the pandemic Armed Forces our British armed forces distributed essential equipment and personal protective equipment. They helped build Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): What steps his hospitals across Scotland and were instrumental in Department is taking to support UK armed forces in getting vital equipment to the Glasgow lighthouse lab. Scotland. [909870] They operated the mobile testing centres, and, currently, as I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont), there are 21 military My Department meets regularly with the Ministry of planners working with Scottish health boards and the Defence to help raise concerns that are specific to Scottish Government on logistical planning for vaccine Scotland. British armed forces personnel in Scotland deployment. Our offer remains open: if the Scottish play a crucial role in defending the whole of the United Government require further assistance from our amazing Kingdom, keeping us safe both at home and abroad, armed forces, they are standing by and are ready to help. and assisting with such dedication at the height of this covid-19 pandemic. Tay Cities Deal

Marco Longhi: I welcome the landmark £24 billion Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): What investment in our UK armed forces, as announced by progress has been made on the publication of the Tay the Prime Minister just last month, bringing economic cities deal. [909871] and security benefits to all four nations of our great United Kingdom. Does my right hon. Friend the Secretary The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland of State agree, therefore, that this demonstrates the true (Iain Stewart): Good progress has been made on the value of the Union to Scotland, bringing jobs to Scotland, Tay cities regional deal. The Chancellor announced at 829 Oral Answers 9 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 830 thespendingreviewon25NovemberthattheUKGovernment innovations such as that trial and the H21 project in investment will now be compressed to 10 years. We are Teesside, which is led by Northern Gas Networks, prove working with local partners to get the full deal signed on that the UK is leading the world in the hydrogen economy? 17 December. David Duguid: I certainly agree with my hon. Friend, Wendy Chamberlain: It has been almost a year since and I congratulate him and the all-party parliamentary I was elected, and in all that time we have been assured group on hydrogen, which he chairs, on their work that the Tay cities deal is just around the corner. I am advancing the hydrogen agenda. I also congratulate delighted to hear that the deal is over the line. It will be SGN on achieving up to £18 million from Ofgem’s a Christmas present for North East Fife and elsewhere, network innovation competition to support development for which people have been waiting for some time. of a hydrogen demonstration network in Levenmouth, bringing carbon-free energy to around 300 homes from Iain Stewart: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for those late 2022. comments. I know of her hard work especially in helping the Eden Campus project in her constituency to be a United Kingdom Internal Market Bill leading part of the deal. I had hoped to be up visiting it a few weeks ago, but unfortunately covid restrictions Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP): What recent precluded that. I very much look forward to visiting in discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the the new year when circumstances allow. effect of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill on Scotland. [909873] Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP) [V]: I too thank the Minister for the reprofiling of the Tay cities deal from 15 years to 10 years. That will really The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): help the projects. We now need to know when it will be I have frequent discussions with Cabinet colleagues on signed. He will also know that we have an issue with the the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, which is internationally renowned James Hutton Institute in my vital to protect seamless trade and jobs across all four constituency.That is primarily a UK Government-financed corners of the United Kingdom following the end of project, but its place in the Tay cities deal has been put the transition period. in jeopardy because of all the delays. To ensure that it can be started in year one, the Hutton needs the Stephen Flynn: Of course, what the Secretary of State Government to draw down its funding early. Will the did not say is that the internal market Bill is a blatant Government do that? If not, how do they intend to ensure attack on devolution. That should not come as a surprise, that this crucial project can be guaranteed? because just three weeks ago the Prime Minister said that devolution was Tony Blair’s biggest mistake—a Iain Stewart: I have had many constructive dialogues bigger mistake than even the illegal Iraq war. Does the with the hon. Gentleman on the Tay cities deal, and Secretary of State disagree with the Prime Minister? I am happy to confirm that we look good to go next Thursday to sign the deal. The delay was for a very Mr Jack: What the Prime Minister said was that good reason: as he alluded to, we were trying to get the devolution was a mistake when it was set up to be put in UK Government side of the deal down from 15 years to the hands of separatists, and I completely agree with 10 years. I am aware of the specific circumstances at the that. I totally agree with it. The Scottish National party James Hutton Institute. I had a very constructive meeting is a campaigning organisation for independence—for with it on Friday last week, and I can assure the hon. separation of the United Kingdom—masquerading as Gentleman that we are exploring every option to ensure a party of Government. that it gets its funding but that all the other very worth- while projects in the deal do too. Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (SNP) [V]: The Secretary of State has regularly explained that, Hydrogen Projects as we leave the EU, the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill will serve to strengthen the UK’s economy Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): What steps his Department and the Union as a whole. Does he feel that the is taking to support hydrogen projects in Scotland. announcement yesterday from the Chancellor of the [909872] Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office that Northern Ireland will have the “best of both worlds”, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland meaning that Northern Ireland will still have access to (David Duguid): As confirmed in the Prime Minister’s both EU and UK markets after Brexit, undermines his 10-point plan for a green industrial revolution, the claims about the Bill? Government are committed to the development of hydrogen as a decarbonised energy carrier for the UK. We are Mr Jack: No, not remotely. What we have delivered developing our strategic approach to hydrogen and its on is unfettered access. We promised unfettered access potential to deliver against our net zero goals, and we at the time of the withdrawal agreement and we have will set out our plans shortly. delivered it.

Jacob Young: SGN has just secured vital funding Mhairi Black [V]: As the Secretary of State knows, from Ofgem to progress its landmark trial of green Scotland voted to remain in the EU. The Scottish hydrogen in a new domestic gas network. I congratulate Government subsequently published a framework for everyone at SGN and those working on the project in how Scotland could still have access to the single market Fife on achieving that. Does the Minister agree that post Brexit. That was rejected outright by the UK 831 Oral Answers 9 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 832

Government.GiventhatNorthernIrelandhasbeenpromised Iain Stewart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the very same thing, will he now make the case for his question. I point out that we will still be one of the Scotland to get the same concessions, and, like his world’slargest net donors to the most deprived communities predecessor, will he consider his position if such a request around the world. That commitment remains absolute. is not granted? We will be working over the next months to ensure that COP26 in Glasgow is as big a success as it can be. We Mr Jack: Scotland is in the fortunate position as part will lead the global climate change agenda and I can of the United Kingdom of not having a land border think of nowhere better than my home city of Glasgow that it needs to worry about. The Northern Ireland to be the showcase for that. There are lots of partners, from situation is different—it has special circumstances. We very small local companies right up to big multinationals, have resolved the problem as we promised we would. who will be playing a part. My colleagues and I will be engaging with them very much over the next few months.

Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP) [V]: The Secretary End of the Transition Period: Preparedness of State would do well to remember that the SNP is a democratically elected party of Government in Scotland. Although we take nothing for granted, pollsters continue Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) to suggest that the SNP will win a majority of seats in (Con): What discussions he has had with the Scottish theHolyroodelectionsthiscomingMay,and15consecutive Government on their preparations for the end of the polls show a clear majority mandate for Scottish transition period. [909875] independence. Does he believe that his Government’s disastrous internal market Bill has contributed to that Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) rise in support for the SNP and Scottish independence? (SNP): What recent discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on preparedness for the end of Mr Jack: There is nothing disastrous about a United the transition period. [909876] Kingdom Internal Market Bill that has mutual recognition and non-discrimination at its base, and that protects The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): jobs in Scotland and people’s livelihoods, when 60% of I have regular conversations with the Scottish Government Scotland’s trade is to the rest of the United Kingdom, on preparedness for the end of the transition period, worth over £50 billion and, as the Fraser of Allander including meetings of the EU Exit Operations Cabinet Institute said only last week, providing 554,000 jobs. Committee and the Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations. Mr Speaker: As Mark Fletcher is not here, would the Minister like to give the answer to his substantive Andrew Bowie: I thank my right hon. Friend for that question? Then I can bring in shadow Minister Elmore. answer. I know he will agree with me that the Scottish Government have failed to prepare for the end of the COP26 transition deal and are letting the Scottish people down, in particular by failing to recruit the required number of environmental protection officers to assist our fishing The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland industry as we leave the transition deal at the end of this (Iain Stewart): The Secretary of State for Scotland and year. Will he confirm that the British Government I have frequent discussions with colleagues on the stand ready to assist the Scottish Government, should opportunities for COP26. That includes through the they require it, to get the required number of protection COP26 devolved Administration ministerial group, which officers in place to support our fishing industry? brings the COP president, territorial Secretaries of State and devolved Administration Ministers together to ensure effective engagement and collaboration on COP26 and Mr Jack: As my hon. Friend knows, it is the Scottish net zero. Government’s responsibility to ensure adequate certifier capacity for exports to the European Union. The UK Government have been engaging closely with the Scottish Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): I am exceedingly grateful Government, Food Standards Scotland and Scottish to you, Mr Speaker, for allowing the Minister to answer local authorities to clarify the capacity in Scotland for the question. certifying export health certificates, and with them, we COP26 in Glasgow, as the Minister knows, is no have determined the level of additional capacity that is ordinary summit. It is a huge opportunity to set the needed. That is the sort of boring answer. I would add global agenda we need to tackle the climate emergency, that we have provided the Scottish Government with but in my opinion the Government have so far not £138 million of Brexit preparedness support for this afforded it the attention and weight it requires. That has purpose. to change—urgently, I would argue—to make the summit the success the planet needs it to be. Cutting overseas Gavin Newlands: Dearie me, Mr Speaker. Let me try aid has had a devastating effect on countries on the this one. NHS Tayside has stated that a hard Brexit frontline of the climate emergency. That will undermine could our role as hosts of COP26, as well as our international standing and moral authority around the world. What “lead to an inability to deliver safe and effective care”, steps is the Scotland Office taking to ensure that, as and NHS Lanarkshire says that Brexit poses a “very hosts of COP26, we are leading by example and not high” risk to the delivery of healthcare services. We also turning our back on those who are living on the frontline know that the Ministry of Defence is putting plans in of the climate emergency? place to fly the Pfizer vaccine into the UK to avoid the 833 Oral Answers 9 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 834

Government’s entirely self-inflicted border ports chaos. for the festive season. We are currently working with the Given that we did not vote for any of this and that devolved Administrations on the deployment of vaccines 15 polls in a row now show support for independence, and community testing across the UK. does the Secretary of State still believe that the Union is “firing on all cylinders”, as he wrote at the weekend? Mr Dhesi: Last month, an opinion poll revealed that 68% of Scots want the Scottish and UK Governments Mr Jack: The Union is absolutely firing on all cylinders, to work more closely together. Minister, why is it that, whether it is the support of over 900,000 jobs in Scotland, despite that, the Scottish and UK Governments are not the UK Government procuring, supplying and paying able to work in a co-ordinated manner, and why are we for all the vaccines for the United Kingdom, or the constantly seeing mixed messages and infighting? armed forces helping with the roll-out. As regards the scare story the hon. Gentleman is trying to start over David Duguid: It is not for me to say what mixed the MOD flying the vaccine into the United Kingdom, messages the hon. Gentleman might see in the press or all good Governments have robust contingency plans. get from political parties. The UK Government and all That is No. 5 on the list of contingency plans, and they assemblies across the whole UK work together on a are not just for the transition period outcome. Those co-ordinated basis to deliver not just what has been contingency plans are made for potential strikes, weather delivered up to now; there was the excellent news yesterday events and so on. It is entirely responsible to plan of the first vaccines being provided across the whole that way. UK—not in one part of the UK or another but across the UK on the same day. Vaccines are an excellent Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The end of the example of that co-operation between the UK Government transition period has been described by Scottish businesses and the devolved Administrations,and the UK Government as a “catastrophic” situation. Some have argued that are procuring vaccines on behalf of the UK as a whole. if they cannot trade with the EU, they are out of the The prioritisation of the vaccines is a devolved matter— game—it is an existential threat. Can I ask the Scottish Secretary to actually show some authority in the Cabinet Mr Speaker: Order. Wemust go on to the next question. and insist on a minimum six-month grace period, so businesses do not fall foul of regulations which are not Andrew Gwynne [V]: The news of the vaccine’s approval yet developed for a deal that is not yet agreed, but which is incredibly encouraging, but we now face the greatest is supposed to be in place in barely three weeks’ time? organisational challenge perhaps since the second world This needs to be done; it needs to be done today.Otherwise, war in distributing it to all who want and need it across businesses will struggle dreadfully on his watch. the four UK nations. Given the botched roll-out of the flu vaccine in Scotland this year, how is the Minister Mr Jack: There has been a major public information going to ensure that Scottish Ministers are able to get campaign running for businesses and citizens, telling the delivery of the covid vaccine right? them exactly what they need to do. We have always been clear that, whether it is deal or no deal, there are steps David Duguid: I am conscious of the time, so I shall that have to be taken when the transition period comes give a very brief answer. Local deployment of the to an end. We are not going to delay the end of the vaccines is a devolved matter, but Ministry of Defence transition period, because it is only by sticking to that Ministers have made military planners available to the date that people can prepare responsibly, and it also Scottish Government to facilitate the complex task of holds the EU’s feet to the fire in getting a deal. We have mass deployment. been clear what measures they need to take. They need to look at the UK Government website, where they can see very clearly what preparations they need to make for the end of this month. PRIME MINISTER

Covid-19: Co-ordination The Prime Minister was asked— Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): What Engagements recent steps his Department has taken to help ensure co-ordination between Scotland and other nations of the UK on the response to the covid-19 outbreak. [909880] [910009] Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): What 9 December. recent steps his Department has taken to help ensure co-ordination between Scotland and other nations of The Prime Minister (): I visited Guy’s the UK on the response to the covid-19 outbreak. and St Thomas’hospital yesterday to see the first clinically [909882] approved vaccine being given to people in London, as it is now across the country. This is a fantastic moment for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland all of us in this House, and I know that everybody will (David Duguid): An effective response to covid-19 does want to join me in thanking the NHS, the vaccine indeed need to be a co-ordinated response across the taskforce, the scientists and all the volunteers who have whole United Kingdom, informing every aspect of the made this possible. UK Government’sresponse.For instance, on 24 November, This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues theUKGovernmentandthethreedevolvedAdministrations and others. In addition to my duties in this House, published a joint statement on UK-wide arrangements I shall have further such meetings later today. 835 Oral Answers 9 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 836

Sir Edward Leigh: When I was a spear carrier in the The Prime Minister: I hesitate to accuse the right hon. Brexit referendum campaign, led by my right hon. and learned Gentleman of deliberately trying to mislead Friend, we assured the British people that a trade deal people, but let us be in no doubt that we had an was entirely achievable, so may I urge him to make one oven-ready deal, which was the withdrawal agreement, last effort? Surely that deal is achievable, because we which the people voted for, as he rightly points out, and have no intention of lowering our standards, but the by which this country left the customs union and the EU should know this: if, consistent with national security, single market, and delivered on our promises. I can tell he cannot secure that deal for us, this parliamentary him, although he must know this, that whatever happens party will back him to the hilt, because strength comes from 1 January this country will be able to get on with with unity. our points-based immigration system, which we have put into law, in fulfilment of our manifesto commitment. The Prime Minister: I thank my right hon. Friend. He We will be able to get on with instituting low-tax free is entirely right: a good deal is still there to be done, and ports, in places where jobs and growth are most needed I look forward to discussing it with Commissioner von around the country. We will be able to honour our der Leyen tonight, but I must tell the House that our promise to the British people and institute higher animal friends in the EU are currently insisting that, if they pass welfare standards; we will be able to do free trade deals; a new law in the future with which we in this country do and we will get our money back as well. I do not know not comply or do not follow suit, they should have the what else he wants to see from 1 January, but all those automatic right to punish us and to retaliate. Secondly, things will be delivered. they are saying that the UK should be the only country in the world not to have sovereign control over its fishing Keir Starmer: Oh, I see. Apparently, “Get Brexit done” waters. I do not believe that those are terms that any just meant the first part of it—the easy bit. I do not Prime Minister of this country should accept. I must remember that being written on the bulldozer at the tell the House and reassure my right hon. Friend that, time. Last September, the Prime Minister actually hit whether our new trading arrangements resemble those the nail on the head when he said that leaving without a of Australia’s with the EU or whether they are like those dealwouldbea“failureof statecraft”.Itwouldbe—itwould of Canada with the EU, I have absolutely no doubt that, be a total failure—and it will be the British people who from 1 January, this country is going to prosper mightily. pay the price. Does the Prime Minister agree with his ownspendingwatchdog,theOfficeforBudgetResponsibility, Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab) [V]: I that the cost of that failure—of leaving the EU with no join the Prime Minister in his comments about the deal—would be higher unemployment, higher inflation vaccine roll-out. It was fantastic to see the first person, and a smaller economy? Margaret Keenan, receive the vaccine yesterday. It is a huge national effort, and I want to thank everybody The Prime Minister: The more the right hon. and who has been involved with it. Mr Speaker, I also want learned Gentleman talks about Brexit, the more I can to thank you and the House authorities for enabling me see why he tried to avoid the subject for the past year. to participate today, notwithstanding the fact that I am Wedid leave with a very good deal, and in anycircumstances self-isolating. this country will prosper mightily. He talks about the A year ago, the Prime Minister stood on the steps of possible adverse consequences for this country of a deal Downing Street and promised the country on Australian terms—I think that is what he is talking “a permanent break from talking about Brexit”. about—but we have yet to hear from Labour party Can the Prime Minister tell us: how is that going? members what their view is of that matter. Would they vote for it, yes or no? He remained totally Delphic last The Prime Minister: I am delighted to welcome the week about his policy on fighting coronavirus and he is right hon. and learned Gentleman here, from his vantage totally Delphic about what to do on Brexit as well. point of exile in Islington, his spiritual home, and wish him all the best in his self-isolation. His own silence on Keir Starmer: The Prime Minister talks about indecision; this matter has been sphinx-like. I wonder quite what it he is absolutely stuck—this is the truth of it—and is that has kept him from asking this question for so dithering between the deal that he knows we need and long. We delivered Brexit on 31 January, in case he failed the compromise that he knows his Back Benchers will to notice. not let him make. I genuinely hope that this is the usual Prime Minister’sbluster and that, like one of his newspaper Keir Starmer: It is Camden, not Islington. The Prime columns, a deal arrives at the last minute. But for some Minister starts straightaway by deflecting—it is the people, and their jobs, it is already too late. same old, same old, whether on covid or Brexit. Twelve Yesterday, INEOS, a major employer in this country, months ago, he told the British people that he had an announced that it will not now build the new Grenadier “oven-ready deal”. He did not say he had half a deal or car in Bridgend and will move production to France that the next stage would be very, very difficult. In fact, instead. This is a project that just two months ago the he faced the British people and told them, before the Prime Minister said was “a vote of confidence”. Hundreds election, that the chances of no deal were “absolutely of skilled jobs now will not go to Bridgend. Can the zero”. The Chancellor, as he is now, obviously took him Prime Minister tell us how many more British jobs have at his word, because the Chancellor said in the run-up to go overseas before he gets on with delivering the to the election: Brexit deal that he promised? “We won’t need to plan for no-deal because we…have a deal.” So a year on, why should anyone who trusted the Prime The Prime Minister: I think it is a bit much of the Minister when he said he had a deal, including his Leader of the Opposition to criticise the Government Chancellor, apparently, believe a word he says now? for failure to come up with a policy on Brexit and to 837 Oral Answers 9 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 838 attack the putative consequences of coming out on or he does not care. The Prime Minister said he had a Australian terms when he cannot even say whether he deal. He did not. He said he would protect jobs. He did would vote for that deal—yes or no. If he cannot say not. He said he would prepare for any outcome. He has whether he would vote for our deal—yes or no—he not. Whatever may happen in the next few days, there is simply cannot attack the Government’s policy. Until he no doubting that his incompetence has held Britain is able to come up with a position of his own, wrap a back. Will he end this charade? In that uncertainty, will towel round his head and decide what he actually thinks, he get the deal that he promised and allow the country I find it very difficult to take his criticisms seriously. to move on? What I can say is that this country will be ready for whether we have a Canadian or an Australian solution, The Prime Minister: I want to thank the right hon. and there will be jobs created in this country—throughout and learned Gentleman for his final baffling question. the whole of the UK—not just in spite of Brexit but Last week, as I have said, he sphinx-like avoided any because of Brexit, because this country is going to become pronouncement on how this country was going to fight a magnet for overseas investment. Indeed, it already is covid. He refused to support the measures that we have and will remain so. put in place. This week, he remains deafeningly silent on what he really thinks about a Brexit deal. While he Keir Starmer: The Prime Minister asked me how puts a cold towel round his head, lost in thought, and I will vote on a deal that he has not even secured. Secure tries to work out what his position is, we are getting the deal, Prime Minister; you promised it. I can say this: on—[Interruption.] if there is a deal—and I hope there is a deal—my party will vote in the national interest, not on party political lines, as he is doing. This is about leadership. The Prime Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Bryant! I suggest the Whip Minister has done 15 U-turns, he has had five different has a word with him. We are not having that disgraceful plans on covid, and last week 53 of his own MPs voted behaviour. against him, so if I were him I would not talk about leadership. The Prime Minister: Mr Speaker, you should summon The Prime Minister has not always wanted to listen him back—he seems to have vanished. to business—we know what his message to business is While the right hon. and learned Gentleman tries to —but he should. Let me quote the CBI, which says that work out what his position is, we are getting on with the the message from business is this: “get a deal…quickly”. work of government. As he says, it is a year since this The National Farmers Union says: people’s Government were elected and I am very proud “Time is really running out and…it’s very hard to get final that we are delivering on the people’s priorities: 6,000 of preparations in.” the 20,000 police officers; 14,800 of the 50,000 nurses These are the people the Prime Minister should be already; and we are getting on with building every one listening to, not his Back Benchers. of the 40 hospitals—it is about 48 hospitals—that we On the question of preparation, the Government knew are going to deliver, along with the biggest programme months ago that they needed 50,000 customs agents of infrastructure investment in this country for a century. trained and ready to go from 1 January—deal or no We are uniting and levelling up across the whole of the deal—so can the Prime Minister tell the House how UK. Whether the outcome is Canada or Australia, we many of the 50,000 agents will be in place on 1 January? will be taking back control—we have already taken back That is in 23 days’ time. control—of our money, our borders and our laws and we will seize all the opportunities that Brexit brings. The Prime Minister: It is wonderful to get to the end of that question. I can tell the right hon. and learned [910011] Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) Gentleman that we have already invested £1 billion in (Con): Today is the 60th anniversary of “Coronation getting this country ready for whatever the trading Street”, the world’s longest running TV drama series. relationship is that we have on 1 January. We have This is an amazing landmark, so congratulations to invested £84 million into supporting customs agents it. Sometimes it feels as if we have been discussing across the UK and £200 million into supporting our infrastructure in the north almost as long. However, we ports, and they are doing an amazing job. I want to have had the Oakervee report, which recommended that thank business for the incredible job it is doing to get the Government committed to HS2 and its full y-shaped ready. We have all got to get ready, because under any network serving both sides of the Pennines. We have view there is going to be change from 1 January—there had the positive decision to proceed with it. As the will be change in the way we do business and there will plans for the eastern leg of HS2, phase 2b, are developed, be more opportunities for this country around the world. will my right hon. Friend consider starting construction I am delighted by what I take is the increasing signalling from the north? That would be good for jobs in the from Camden, because the message from Camden seems north and for connectivity with the east midlands, all of to be that, given the choice, the right hon. and learned which, of course, drive my right hon. Friend’s levelling-up Gentleman would vote for a deal rather than not. Did agenda. my Back-Bench colleagues get that impression? I think I did. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is a big expert in this field and a great campaigner for transport. He is Mr Speaker: Hopefully, the final question will be a right about the massive impact that these programmes little shorter. can have on jobs. [Interruption.] Keir Starmer: I take it that the answer is the Prime Minister has no idea whether the 50,000 customs agents Mr Speaker: Mr Bryant, I think we need to have this will be in place on 1 January. He either does not know conversation later. 839 Oral Answers 9 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 840

The Prime Minister: I was saying, Mr Speaker, that There is a wealth of evidence that default same-language my hon. Friend is completely right about the power of subtitling can have a dramatic effect on children’s literacy, great infrastructure projects to deliver jobs, which is particularly for disadvantaged children. I know that why we are getting on with both the eastern leg of HS2 that is a great priority for the Prime Minister, given the and Northern Powerhouse Rail. What I have asked the potential impact of covid on the attainment gap. Will National Infrastructure Commission and Network Rail he support a Government consultation to turn on the to look at is how those two projects can best be integrated subtitlesinordertoreallyexplorethispotentiallytransformative to boost the economy of the whole of the north of the opportunity? country. The Prime Minister: I am sure that I speak for many Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP) hon. Members when I say that I am a massive supporter [V]: Yesterday, by this Government’s own admission, it of subtitles myself—particularly with some of these was confirmed that Northern Ireland is getting the best crime dramas from America. The campaign that my of both worlds: access to the EU single market and hon. Friend mentions is excellent. All the Departments customs union. This is great news for businesses in that have a stake in this will be working with her to see Northern Ireland, but it leaves Scotland, which also voted what we can do to take the matter further. to remain, dealing with the hardest of Brexits. What is good for Northern Ireland is surely good enough for Scotland. Why is Scotland being shafted by this double Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green) [V]: Last dealing? Can the Prime Minister explain to Scottish week, we learned that UK Export Finance has been businesses why this is fair? approached to back the east African crude oil pipeline. This is a climate catastrophe that will produce emissions The Prime Minister: In common with the whole of equivalent to all the UK’s annual flights. Not only that, the rest of the United Kingdom, Scotland will benefit. but a recent response to one of my written parliamentary It will benefit from substantial access to devolved powers, questions confirmed that UKEF has six more fossil fuel it will benefit from the regaining of money, borders and projects under consideration. Ahead of the climate laws, and, as I never tire of telling my friend, the right ambition summit this weekend, how can the Prime hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford), Minister claim any climate credibility while ploughing that, in spite of all his jeering, Scotland will take back public money into dirty fossil fuel projects overseas? control of colossal quantities of fish, which is something Are these the actions of a rogue,out of control Government that the people of Scotland deserve to be able to exploit Department—or, worse, does the Prime Minister actually for the advantage of those communities. approve of them?

Ian Blackford: The Prime Minister can spin all he The Prime Minister: I hope the hon. Lady knows that likes, but everybody can now see the total contempt that we are moving away dramatically and at speed from UK this UK Government have for Scottish interests. Northern Export Finance supporting fossil fuel exploration around Ireland gets the single market and customs union; we the world, but, of course, hydrocarbons remain a significant get nothing. Members of his Scottish branch office told industry in Scotland and many other places. In so far him how unfair and damaging it would be to deny as there are legitimate contracts that are at risk of being Scotland’s access to the EU single market and customs frustrated, we cannot do that. I really think that her union while at the same time delivering it for Northern criticism of the Government is absurd. Look at the Ireland. Ruth Davidson even said that such an act overall record and ambition of this Government; this is would “undermine the integrity”of the United Kingdom. the first country in the developed world to set a target of The former Scottish Tory constitution spokesperson net zero by 2050. I know that when she is being less said that it would be the end of the Union. They, along polemical, she has had some kind words to say about with the former Secretary of State for Scotland, said the Government’s programme, and I certainly support that if this were to happen, they would all resign. Since her in that. the Prime Minister is ready to sell out Scotland’s interests with his Brexit deal, does he expect to receive these [910013] Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): resignation letters from Baroness Davidson and her Will my right hon. Friend confirm that our future cohort before or after her travels to Brussels tonight? immigration policy will welcome law abiding citizens of other countries to our country, and that those who The Prime Minister: The only reasonable answer to come to this country and are subsequently convicted that question is that I think it is highly unlikely that of serious crimes, including rape and murder, should those letters will arrive. The right hon. Gentleman does expect to be removed from this country to keep our a gross injustice to Scotland and the future of Scotland, citizens safe? which will be assured within the single market of the United Kingdom. In spite of the slight negativity that I detect from him, I believe that Scotland, along with the The Prime Minister: Indeed; I was astounded to see rest of the UK, will benefit from a very strong trading that 42 Opposition Members wrote to the Home Secretary relationship with our friends and partners across the opposing the deportation of foreign national criminals, channel, whatever the circumstances, whatever the terms while the leader of the Labour party maintained his we reach tonight. characteristic delphic silence on the matter.

[910012] (Hertford and Stortford) (Con): [910010] David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): Why does I am supporting “Turn on the Subtitles”—a campaign the Prime Minister think we have now seen 15 consecutive led by my Bishop’s Stortford constituent Henry Warren. polls showing majority support for Scottish independence? 841 Oral Answers 9 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 842

The Prime Minister: The people of Scotland, as the mentions. I know that the Department is going to be hon. Gentleman knows very well, voted in 2014, by a assessing that application very carefully and will keep substantial majority, to remain in the UK. I believe that him informed. was the right decision, and I believe that were they ever to be asked the same question again in the future, it [910022] Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) would be the same answer. But has he has said, and as (SNP) [V]: The Prime Minister did not quite answer my his hon. Friends have said, many times, it was a once-in- hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (David a-generation event. Linden) on why support for independence is so high, so maybe I can tempt him with a couple of reasons. First, [910014] Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con) [V]: Staffordshire there is the leadership of the First Minister, which is currently in tier 3, so unfortunately, due to restrictions, Scots contrast with him. Then there is his crazy, chaotic many local businesses are either unable to open or Brexit—a Brexit that Scotland did not vote for. But it is having to operate differently, which is having a significant also down to him personally. He is probably the biggest impact on my constituents’ lives and livelihoods. So will single recruiting sergeant that we have, and for that we the Prime Minister commit to providing sufficient testing mightily thank him. So can I ask him, on behalf of all in Staffordshire to help us to get out of tier 3 as soon as of us who want to see an independent Scotland: could possible, and will he assure me that he will do all he can he please take a bow and accept our many thanks? to support businesses and protect jobs in Stafford, as well as creating new employment opportunities for young The Prime Minister: I am delighted to accept the people after 31 December? thanks of the hon. Gentleman. I have to say that it is really thanks to him and the Scottish National party The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend. No. 1, that we have been able to keep our wonderful United yes of course we will do everything we can with NHS Kingdom together, because it was the sheer incoherence Test and Trace, plus our armed forces, to roll out of their position, their refusal to address the tough community testing in Stafford; and No. 2, of course we questions of what breaking up the UK really means—the want to support Stafford and the people of Stafford impact on our budgets and our economy and the impacts with a massive programme of business support, including on Scotland and on our whole country—and their nearly £1.4 million in bounce back loans, grants, rate manifest inability to explain what they actually mean relief and VAT deferrals. that meant that the people of Scotland voted in 2014 to remain part of the UK. They were right then, and they [910020] Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) will be right in the future to stay. (Lab): The Prime Minister will fully appreciate that the use of gross domestic product as a measure is abstract [910016] (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: It is in terms of dealing with and understanding prosperity, now three and a half years since the Grenfell fire but people talk about a 15% drop in GDP as a result of tragedy that cost the lives of 72 people, yet there the pandemic. Looking at a simple analysis of car sales are still 3.6 million leaseholders living in potentially as an indicator of economic performance, relative to dangerous, unsaleable and unmortgageable properties. Germany, we have lost 184,000 car sales in the UK, or The Government rightly set aside a billion pounds versus France, 100,000. Behind those numbers, which towards the remediation of non-aluminium composite are a big hit to UK plc, are jobs and businesses. How material cladding, but that expires on 31 December this does the Prime Minister explain this relative economic year. It is clear that it will be insufficient to cover the performance? costs, so will my right hon. Friend set out for the House what the plan is for next year to remediate the cladding? Will he give a cast-iron guarantee that leaseholders will The Prime Minister: The Government of this country not have to pay a penny piece towards the cost of have done everything we can to support business and replacing this unsafe cladding? support lives and livelihoods throughout this pandemic, with now, I think, more than £260 billion of support, The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and that remains the case. The hon. Gentleman mentions to draw attention to this injustice and what is happening France and Germany.He should know that unemployment, with leaseholders at the moment. That is why we have in spite of all the difficulties this country has faced, put £1.6 billion into removing unsafe cladding. I do not remains lower in this country than in France, Italy, want to see leaseholders being forced to pay for the Spain and the United States. Yes, it is tough, but we are remediation, and I can assure my hon. Friend that we going to get through it and we are going to get through are looking now urgently—before the expiry of the it together. current arrangements—at what we can do to take them forward and support leaseholders, who are in a very unfair [910015] Mark Jenkinson (Workington) (Con): Can I position. commend my right hon. Friend’s bold 10-point plan for a clean, green industrial revolution and ask for his Feryal Clark (Enfield North) (Lab): Is the Prime support to help me deliver a 26-hectare renewable Minister aware that his Government risk failing a generation energy manufacturing hub at Oldside in the port of of children in my constituency of Enfield North and Workington, continuing to deliver on our promises of across the country, as analysis shows this week that only 12 months ago when I turned Workington blue? one in six pupils on free school meals—those who are most likely to fall behind their peers—will benefit from The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend and the programmes to help them catch up on learning lost congratulate him on his achievement and on his anniversary. as a result of covid? Does the Prime Minister agree that The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial is simply not good enough, and can he explain why we Strategy is looking very seriously at the project that he are in this dire situation nine months on? 843 Oral Answers 9 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 844

The Prime Minister: I share the hon. Lady’s anxiety Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Could about the impact of differential learning on kids in our the Prime Minister kindly explain to the people of tier 3 schools across the country, because there is no doubt Birmingham, with a population of over 1 million and that different groups have been affected in different where almost 2,000 have lost their life, why he has not ways by the pandemic. That is why we have put a billion considered them a priority for receipt of the vaccine? pounds or more into the catch-up funds, but it is also why it is so important to ensure that kids go to school The Prime Minister: I really must respectfully disagree and stay in school. That is why we have put all the emphasis, with the hon. Gentleman. The Joint Committee on as we have throughout this pandemic, on maintaining Vaccination and Immunisation has set out very clear kids in school, even if that has put pressure on the criteria for the groups, starting with those over 80, care hospitality sector and other parts of our economy. home workers, NHS workers and those in care homes, and he knows the criteria very well. Birmingham, of [910017] Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): I wonder course, will be among them, and of course that is right. whether my right hon. Friend, were he to find a small I am afraid that I simply cannot accept the premise of gap in his very busy diary, would join me on a visit to his question. the Black Country Living Museum, where I would introduce him to a plate of Black Country battered chips and a pint of Holden’s Golden Glow, all after he [910019] Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con): Conservative has reviewed the arrangements that the museum has colleagues across Derbyshire have been working very made to become a covid vaccination centre. hard on our bid for community testing to help us tackle covid. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the bid The Prime Minister: I am thrilled that the Black from Derbyshire County Council receives the resources Country Living Museum is in line to be a covid vaccination and attention we need to help us in our fight to get out centre. I have had many happy meetings with my hon. of tier 3? Friend in the Black Country, and as a proud former resident of Bilston, I look forward to returning before The Prime Minister: Yes, and just this morning I was too long. discussing Derbyshire’s bid for a big community testing programme. We will obviously do everything we can to Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Mr Speaker, I know you support them, and I thank my hon. Friend and local are a strong supporter of the Falkland Islands. The leaders for what they are doing to promote community Falkland Islands face the prospect of their fisheries testing. exports to the European Union being subject to tariffs of between 6% and 18% from 1 January. Fisheries Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab) [V]: Real-terms exports to the European Union account for more than pay cuts for millions of public sector workers, an insulting 40% of the islands’ gross domestic product, and up to 37p increase in benefit levels and broken promises on 60% of their Government’s revenue. This poses a serious minimum wage increases show that the Prime Minister challenge to the Falkland Islands. Will the Prime Minister wants to pay for this crisis on the backs of the working raise this matter when he meets with the President of class. Would it not be fairer to impose a windfall tax on the European Commission later? the wealth of the super-rich and on those who have made super-profits out of the covid crisis, including The Prime Minister: Indeed. The hon. Gentleman is those who won contracts because of their links to top right to raise the issue of the Falkland Islands and, Tories? indeed, other Crown territories and overseas dependencies around the world, whose future and future trading arrangements must be secured. That is indeed something The Prime Minister: I must, again, strongly disagree that we have raised and will continue to raise on their with what the hon. Gentleman says. Everybody on this behalf to make sure that they get the satisfactory assurances side of the House is proud not just of the living wage they need. but of record increases in the living wage, of above inflation pay rises across the board and, of course, of [910018] Sir (North East Hertfordshire) what we have done to support nurses and the NHS with (Con) [V]: The Prime Minister is aware of the continuing record investment. I do not think anybody who looks at concern in rural communities, such as those in North the investment this Government have made in the public East Hertfordshire, about intentional unauthorised sector could doubt our commitment. We will continue development where caravans suddenly appear on land to do that, but what we want to see is our economy without planning permission. Many of my constituents recovering and our strong and dynamic private sector, and I support proposal 24 in the planning White Paper, which the hon. Gentleman disparages, enabling the which proposes new powers for councils to tackle this. country to forge forward as it should. Will the Prime Minister put his authority behind it so these changes can be made as soon as possible? [910021] Saqib Bhatti (Meriden) (Con): It has been almost 12 months since I and many of my colleagues The Prime Minister: I will indeed. I think everybody were elected to this House for the first time, and it was a in the House recognises the distress that unauthorised great privilege to deliver my on Second camps and encampments can cause to local communities, Reading of the Environment Bill and be on the Bill and my right hon. and learned Friend is right to draw Committee for this landmark piece of legislation. Does attention to this. He is also right to call attention to the my right hon. Friend agree that protecting the environment new powers we are giving both to the police and to is not only a moral duty but presents an economic councils to tackle the matter, and I am glad to have his opportunity, including the creation of jobs for my support. constituents in Meriden? 845 Oral Answers 9 DECEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 846

The Prime Minister: It is crucial to understand that roof have led to the closure of the physiotherapy gym. the 10-point plan for the green industrial revolution is With his enthusiasm for building hospitals, can my about jobs, jobs, jobs. This plan, whether it is retrofitting right hon. Friend offer the people of west Norfolk hope homes or making wind turbines, will generate 250,000 and back our bid to build our future hospital? jobs across the country in just the first few years. The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for his Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): Many campaign and for everything he does for his constituents. constituents, especially those emanating from the I can tell him that the bid process for the remaining and other parts of India, were horrified, as I was, to see eight hospitals, on top of the 40, is currently being footage of water cannon, tear gas and brute force being designed. The Department of Health and Social Care is used against peacefully protesting farmers. However, it working with a variety of trusts, including the Queen was heart-warming to see those very farmers feeding Elizabeth Hospital King’s Lynn NHS Trust, as that work those forces who had been ordered to beat or suppress continues. them. What indomitable spirit—it takes a special kind of people to do that. Will the Prime Minister convey to Mr Speaker: May I gently say to the Prime Minister the Indian Prime Minister our heartfelt anxieties and that next week will be the final Prime Minister’s questions our hopes for a speedy resolution to the current deadlock? before Christmas? Will he update the House on the leak Does he agree that everyone has a fundamental right to inquiry? It would be helpful. peaceful protest? The Prime Minister: I will do my best. The Prime Minister: Of course. Our view, as the hon. Gentleman knows well, is that we have serious concerns Mr Speaker: Thank you, Prime Minister. about what is happening between India and Pakistan, In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members who butthesearepre-eminentlymattersforthosetwoGovernments participated in this item of business and the safe arrival to settle. I know that he appreciates that point. of those participating in the next, I suspend the House for a few minutes. [910023] (North West Norfolk) (Con): The Queen Elizabeth Hospital in King’s Lynn is at the heart 12.41 pm of our local community, but it is in need of urgent modernisation. Most recently, cracks in the concrete Sitting suspended. 847 9 DECEMBER 2020 EU Withdrawal Agreement 848

EU Withdrawal Agreement Instead, I am pleased to say that under the agreement that we have reached, Northern Ireland businesses selling 12.46 pm to consumers or using goods in Northern Ireland will be free of all tariffs, whether that is Nissan cars from The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister Sunderland or lamb from Montgomeryshire. Internal for the Cabinet Office (): With permission, UK trade will be protected as we promised, whether we Mr Speaker, I would like to update the House, and indeed have a free trade agreement with the EU or not. the people of Northern Ireland, on the implementation of the Northern Ireland protocol as part of the withdrawal Thirdly, this deal would keep goods flowing between agreement with the European Union. Throughout 2020, Great Britain and Northern Ireland in January and we have worked intensively to ensure that the withdrawal provide some necessary additional flexibilities. It protects agreement, in particular the Northern Ireland protocol, Northern Ireland’s supermarket supplies. We heard will be fully operational on 1 January 2021. Our aims, throughout the year that traders needed time to adapt and the proportionate and pragmatic way that we intended their systems. That is why we have a grace period for to pursue them, were set out in the Command Paper supermarkets to update their procedures. Our agreement that we published in May, “The UK’s Approach to the prevents any disruption at the end of the transition Northern Ireland Protocol”. This set out three key period to the movement of chilled meats. British sausages commitments that we believed needed to be respected in will continue to make their way to Belfast and Ballymena all scenarios. in the new year,and we have time for reciprocal agreements between the UK and the EU on agrifood, which can be We had to ensure that Northern Ireland businesses discussed in the months ahead. This deal also protects retained unfettered access to the rest of the UK market. the flow of medicines and vet medicines into Northern Northern Ireland’s place in the UK’s customs territory Ireland. That means we will grant industry a period of had to be protected, and that meant that goods that up to 12 months to adapt to new rules under the protocol, stayed in the UK were not subject to tariffs. We had to which will avoid any disruption to critical medical supplies. ensure that the important Great Britain-Northern Ireland trade flows, on which lives and livelihoods depend, were So those are three commitments entered into, and not disrupted; we needed to ensure a smooth flow of three commitments that we have upheld. But this agreement trade with no need for new physical customs infrastructure. goes further still, providing additional flexibility that will enable us to make the most of the opportunities I am pleased to say that on Monday, the European that face us as the transition period ends. As you know, Commission Vice-President Maroš Šefcˇovicˇ and I, as Mr Speaker, this House has been concerned about the co-chairs of the Joint Committee set up to negotiate the risk of so-called reach-back from the state aid provisions implementation of the protocol, came to an agreement that the protocol applies.The concern that many colleagues in principle on a deal that meets all those commitments had was that a company in Great Britain with only a and puts the people of Northern Ireland first. I would peripheral link to commercial operations in Northern like to begin by paying tribute to Maroš Šefcˇovicˇand Ireland could be caught inadvertently by the tests within his team for their pragmatism, collaborative spirit and the protocol’s text. That would not have been acceptable, determination to get a deal done that would work for nor was it what the protocol had envisaged. That is why both sides. I would also like to thank the First Minister, I am pleased that the agreement we have addresses that the Deputy First Minister and all the Members of the risk. It means that firms in Great Britain stay outside Northern Ireland Executive for their crucial intervention state aid rules where there is no genuine and direct link at significant moments to ensure that the rights of the to Northern Ireland and no real foreseeable impact on people of Northern Ireland were protected. Northern Ireland-EU trade. That is an important step I turn now to the first Government commitment. forward in dealing with an issue raised by a number of This deal protects unfettered access for Northern Ireland Members across the House. businesses to their most important market. As the Prime This deal also ensures that Northern Ireland will be Minister underlined, this had to be protected in full, and out of the common agricultural policy, which means that meant removing any prospect of export declarations that the Northern Ireland Executive have full freedom for Northern Ireland goods moving from Northern to set their own agricultural subsidies for Northern Ireland to Great Britain. That is what our agreement Ireland’s farmers. It also means appropriate and flexible will do. There will be no additional requirements placed arrangements, so that more than £400 million of spending on Northern Ireland businesses for these movements, each year is totally exempt from state aid rules. As well with the very limited and specific exceptions of trade in as that, the deal ensures that support for fishermen in endangered species and conflict diamonds. Northern Ireland will be exempt from EU state aid On the second commitment, the deal safeguards rules, which means more than £15 million of flexibility Northern Ireland’s place in the UK’s customs territory. for Northern Ireland’s fishermen over the next five As recently as July, the Commission had envisaged a years.And, of course, Northern Ireland’sservices industries default tariff scenario in which are totally outside the scope of the protocol and its state “all goods brought into Northern Ireland” aid measures. were The agreement also respects the protocol provisions, “considered to be at risk…and are as such subject to the Common which were endorsed by Parliament, that allow some Customs Tariff.” EU officials to be present at Northern Ireland ports as If that had been implemented, that would have raised UK authorities carry out our own procedures. Let me the prospect of a 58% tariff on a pint of milk going be clear: there will be no Belfast mini embassy or from Scotland to a supermarket in Strabane or a 96% mission, as some in the EU originally sought, and the tariff on a bag of sugar going from Liverpool to the EU officials will not have any powers to carry out shops of Belfast. As we have repeatedly made clear, this checks themselves. There will instead be sensible, practical could never have been an acceptable outcome. arrangements, with co-operation and reciprocal data 849 EU Withdrawal Agreement9 DECEMBER 2020 EU Withdrawal Agreement 850 sharing, so that both sides can have confidence in these Last December, the Prime Minister said: unique arrangements. We also want to leave no doubt “We’re a UK government, why would we put checks on goods about our ongoing commitment to peace and prosperity going from NI to GB or GB to NI? It doesn’t make sense.” in Northern Ireland. My right hon. Friend the Northern With that in mind, will the Minister explain why today’s Ireland Secretary will set out in the coming days further documents confirm that on trade from GB to NI there measures of financial support to help businesses and will indeed be a range of checks? The trusted trader communities to prosper and thrive from the end of the scheme will be removed after three and a half years and year and beyond. reviewed then, with further uncertainty at that point. We have been able to deliver a package which now The exemption on agrifood checks is available for means that the protocol can be implemented in a pragmatic only three months, so will the Minister tell us what and proportionate way.It takes account of the Belfast/Good guarantees there are on prices and availability of fresh Friday agreement in all its dimensions, and it protects food supplies in Northern Ireland after 1 April? Will the interests of both the EU single market and, more custom checks be required just three months into 2021? importantly, the territorial and constitutional integrity All that raises the question: did the Prime Minister of the whole United Kingdom. This agreement will be actually know what he had signed up to last year, and approved officially at a Joint Committee meeting in the then give false assurances to the House, or did he simply coming days. Of course, the agreement we have reached not care? This is a disgraceful way to treat businesses in also enables the Government to withdraw clauses 44, 45 good times, never mind in the middle of a pandemic. and 47 of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill and avoids the need for any additional provisions in the On the trade deal needed for Northern Ireland, and Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill. Having put beyond for Great Britain too, we are told that the level playing doubt the primacy of the sovereignty of this place as we field remains an outstanding area of disagreement, yet leave the EU, we rest safe in the knowledge that such the Prime Minister’s political declaration, which he provisions are no longer required. signed with the EU, spoke of a future relationship with “open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments We know that we now need to get on and give further to ensure a level playing field.” clarity to business as to the specifics of what this deal means for them and how it will work in practice, and we Some Conservative MPs are agitated by the idea of a will do that through the publication of further guidance. floor on workers’rights.Indeed, no fewer than three Cabinet That will sit alongside the ongoing intensive work that Ministers jointly wrote a book that said that British we will take forward to implement the protocol. Above workers are all, we will always work with the interests of the people “among the worst idlers in the world.” and businesses of Northern Ireland in mind, as this We on this side of the House do not agree with that agreement and the important flexibilities it will provide statement. Neither do the people of our country, who reflects. We must all remember that, if the protocol is to want more security at work, not less. There are some work, it must work for the whole community in Northern siren voices among those on the Government Benches, Ireland. Whether it is to be maintained in the future, as who appear to view any agreement with the EU as a the protocol itself sets out, is for the people of Northern betrayal. The Minister should know that the true betrayal Ireland to decide through the democratic consent would be job losses, border chaos and price rises in our mechanism that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister shops. negotiated. On that critical note of the primacy of The Minister referred to cars from Nissan and lamb democracy, I commend this statement to the House. exports from Wales, and that they will be tariff-free in Northern Ireland, but as he knows, they need to be 12.54 pm tariff-free with the EU too. We on this side of the House Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): I thank the Minister want the negotiations to succeed. Wewant the Government for advance sight of the statement. We welcome it and to keep their promises and come back with the oven-ready are pleased that a decision has been reached on the deal that we were promised at the general election less Northern Ireland protocol. The Good Friday agreement than a year ago. Sometimes it feels as though we on this is a source of immense pride on this side of the House, side of the House want the Government to succeed and given the role that Tony Blair’sLabour Government played bring back this deal more than those on the Government’s in building on the work of Sir John Major in achieving own Back Benches do. it. Neither of those Governments would play games with Deal or no deal, there are preparations that still need the peace process, and nor would a Government led by to be made for Northern Ireland, and for Great Britain my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Holborn too. I want to ask again about customs agents, because and St Pancras (Keir Starmer). Game playing, with just minutes ago, the Prime Minister did not seem to threats to break international law, has consequences, have any answers on how many there are. Earlier in the and it is also a dangerous distraction. year, the Minister agreed with industry estimates of Northern Ireland’s Department of Agriculture, 50,000 customs agents needed. Since then, he has told Environment and Rural Affairs says that the border the BBC that the number had increased fourfold, but he infrastructure simply will not be ready in time. omitted to tell us what the figure was. Let us give him Manufacturing NI says that just 9% of businesses in another chance: how many customs agents are in place Northern Ireland are ready for the end of the transition and are we ready for the end of the transition period? period. The systems needed to make trade flow, such as It is not just me asking these questions. Richard the trader support service, reportedly will not even be Burnett, chief executive of the Road Haulage Association, going live until 21 December—eight working days before says: the end of the transition period. This really does give “The big issue that we face is that there are insufficient customs new meaning to “the night before Christmas”. agents” 851 EU Withdrawal Agreement9 DECEMBER 2020 EU Withdrawal Agreement 852

[Rachel Reeves] The hon. Lady asked about customs agent capacity overall. It is the case that £84 million has been made and that without them and the correct paperwork, available in order to increase capacity, and the latest “we are likely to see vehicles being turned around… That is going survey by HMRC shows that there has been a fourfold to create significant chaos and significant queues.” increase in capacity. Of course, one of the reasons why On lorry parks, will the Minister tell us how many we are phasing in import controls over six months next inland border facilities are ready and will they ensure year is to ensure that the sector can increase even further, the free flow of lorries and vehicles from 1 January? but that fourfold increase in capacity gives us the confidence Can he guarantee the House that there will be no we need that all the staff will be there. disruption to medical or food supplies from 1 January? The hon. Lady mentioned Richard Burnett of the Road Haulage Association. He, along with Dave Wells Ours is a great country, and Labour wants to see a of Logistics UK and other figures in the haulage and good life for all our people, but, as great as our country logistics industry, has played an invaluable role in making is, it cannot afford to be afflicted by Government sure that the Government do everything necessary to incompetence. Every price rise, every traffic jam, every prepare, but I would never shirk from saying that more lost contract and every redundancy caused by this needs to be done. Government’s mistakes and poor planning holds our great country back. Next year must be a year of rebuilding The hon. Lady asked about the level playing field and and recovering from covid-19, not dealing with the workers’ rights. We have a proud tradition of upholding fallout of reckless decision making, tariffs or incompetence. workers’ rights and ensuring that we have social and So this is decision time for this Government, and it is environmental protections in this country that are higher time to get the deal. than in many other European countries. That will not change—that is a source of pride—but one thing we Michael Gove: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for cannot accept in the course of the level playing field the warm welcome that she gave to this agreement, and negotiations is the demand from some in the EU that if I also thank her for the kind words she offered Sir John the EU adopts new laws, we would automatically have Major: the process of concluding the Good Friday to follow those laws or face penalties. We are not afraid agreement, as she quite rightly reminds us, was a signal to say that our standards are high and we will uphold achievement of Tony Blair’s Government but was also them, but we are also not afraid to say that the people of achieved as a result of hard work across this House. this country voted to take back control, and that is what And of course there has been since the Good Friday this Government will do. agreement was concluded 22 years of progress in Northern Ireland, and it is important that we seek to underpin Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con): The and secure that. implementation of the Northern Ireland protocol has The hon. Lady asked about border infrastructure. become my right hon. Friend’sequivalent of the Schleswig- Let me emphasise that this border infrastructure is Holstein question, given the variety of interpretations there to ensure that sanitary and phytosanitary checks that surround it, but fundamentally does what my right can be made. As she and the House know, it is already hon. Friend agreed yesterday make it more or less likely the case that the island of Ireland is a single epidemiological that a free trade agreement with the European Union zone, and therefore when live animals move from Great that, crucially, ensures United Kingdom sovereignty in Britain to Northern Ireland there are physical checks. its entirety can be secured? There will be border facilities in order to ensure that these limited and proportionate SPS checks can be Michael Gove: I thank the Chairman of the Select carried out at the port of Foyle, Warrenpoint, Belfast Committee on Public Administration and Constitutional and Larne, and we have reassured the Commission, and Affairs for his question. I think it was Palmerston who indeed others, about the speed and effectiveness with said that there were only three people who knew the which the necessary limited infrastructure will be in answer to the Schleswig-Holstein question: one was place. dead, another was mad, and he himself had forgotten The hon. Lady also asked about the trader support what the answer was. But on the Northern Ireland service, which is there to help Northern Ireland businesses. protocol, there are all sorts of hon. and right hon. Members I am pleased that we spend over £200 million in order to in this House who have played a part in making sure support Northern Ireland businesses, and I think it is that we can indeed secure Northern Ireland’sconstitutional the case that more than 10,000 businesses are now signed future within the UK and ensure that we leave the up to the trader support service in order to ensure that European Union as one country, whole and entire. they will incur no costs as a result of the protocol. The hon. Lady also asked about the future of the Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP) [V]: trusted trader scheme, which, as she rightly pointed out, I thank the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster for guarantees that goods being sold in Northern Ireland his statement. It is one of these statements that I suppose and businesses operating in Northern Ireland will face is good news until we actually see the scale of the Brexit no tariffs. It is the case that we will have an opportunity horrors that are now just in front of us. We are now at to review how that scheme operates, but it will only the stage of this chaotic Brexit where we have a sort of need to be reviewed if there is a demonstrable diversion Schrödinger’s deal—one that is sort of there but also not. or illegal activity, and in those circumstances there is an I do not know whether the Chancellor of the Duchy obligation on both parties to seek alternative arrangements. of Lancaster has come to the House today looking for I should stress again that no additional customs checks some sort of “congratulations and well done” for all will face goods going from Northern Ireland to Great this. I suppose it is “well done” for taking us all to the Britain. very brink with the very worst of negotiation statecraft 853 EU Withdrawal Agreement9 DECEMBER 2020 EU Withdrawal Agreement 854 on what was supposed to be the easiest deal in the I do hope that we will see more of that later today. world, “well done” for the emerging chaos at our ports However, he seems to have brought back not a permanent and businesses taking flight, or maybe even “well done” arrangement but a series of grace periods, and I want to for in a few weeks denying our young people the right to ask him about that. live, work and love freely across a continent. Tonight, For example, it has been reported that food products we are going to have the last supper—but we know it is coming from GB into Northern Ireland will be exempt the British people who will be crucified. from export health certificates for a period of at least Yes, what Northern Ireland has got is great for it. three months, and that chilled meats—the right hon. “Best of both worlds” is a phrase that we in Scotland Gentleman referred to sausages—will be allowed for a are pretty much familiar with; it is what we were promised period of time, pending a review, after which they might in 2014. Now, in 2020, we are faced with the worst of all be prevented any more from moving from GB to Northern worlds. We would give our right arm for access to the Ireland. What is going to happen after those dates? EU single market and unfettered access across the rest How exactly are businesses going to be able to prepare of the UK market, so can the Chancellor of the Duchy when they have not yet seen the detailed arrangements, of Lancaster explain to the Scottish people exactly why because the Joint Committee is not going to meet for a Scotland is the only part of the United Kingdom that couple of days, and when those details may well change will not get any part of what it voted for on Brexit? yet again in a few months’ time?

Michael Gove: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman Michael Gove: I am very grateful to the right hon. once again for his questions; they are masterpieces of Gentleman for his questions—and indeed for the work metaphorical concatenation. He managed to bring in of his Future Relationship with the European Union both Schrödinger’s cat and the Easter and Passiontide Committee, which has helped us as we have sought to narrative before he eventually got to his question. It was resolve these issues—and his welcome is very welcome. a masterpiece, as I say, of lyrical concision, which we On the detailed points he makes, we have been talking would expect from Runrig’s principal star. to traders, supermarkets in particular, to make sure that On the basic question, it is the case—the hon. Gentleman they are ready for any export health certificate requirements. recognises, as I recognise—that Northern Ireland has a We know that some supermarkets are already ready. unique position within the United Kingdom as a result One or two others need time in order to get ready, and of having a land border with the European Union, they requested a grace period. Originally, those in the which no other part of the United Kingdom does, and Commission argued that that would be impossible or, if that requires specific arrangements. But whatever those it did exist, that it could only be a matter of weeks. We specific arrangements, it is the case that Northern Ireland, have managed to secure three months, which is sufficient by the will of its people, remains part of the United time, we understand, to ensure that supermarkets are Kingdom. Long may it remain so. ready. On the chilled meat provision, it is the case that we have secured a six-month period during which there Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): I very much agree will be absolutely no change. Again, it was the case that with what the Prime Minister said today at Prime there were some in the EU who argued that that should Minister’s questions. Does the Chancellor of the Duchy be a strictly non-renewable provision. We secured an of Lancaster also agree? And is there anything in his approach that meant we could keep under review how statement that would be allowed to undermine the things were operating in order to ensure that we provided unfettered sovereignty of the United Kingdom as asserted people in Northern Ireland with access to the food they by successive democratic votes and the referendum, and currently enjoy, without any disruption to the integrated successive Acts of Parliament, including sections 30 and supply chains that supermarkets have and which they 38 of the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) will adjust. Act 2020? Will the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster also Anthony Browne (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): Many confirm today that he will appear before the European of the life science and other businesses of South Scrutiny Committee? As he knows, he has declined to Cambridgeshire export to Northern Ireland. Can my do so on at least three occasions, most recently on right hon. Friend reassure them that they will not face 26 November. We put this to him in writing but so far any new bureaucratic obstacles or tariffs as they sell their he has not been able to come. Will he please commit right goods and services there? now, today, to coming before the Committee as soon as possible? Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is a brilliant advocate for the life science sector, and I know that it provides Michael Gove: On the first point, my hon. Friend is jobs and investment in Cambridgeshire and beyond. It absolutely right: section 38 of the Act that gave effect to is also the case that there is a thriving life science and the withdrawal agreement upheld the sovereignty of pharmaceuticals sector in Northern Ireland, and it will this place, and there is nothing in what we have concluded be the case that there are no impediments to the continued that in any way diverges from that. On the second successful integration of that work. question, I am very sorry that I have played hard to get, but I will make sure that we can have a date before Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): The right Christmas when the two of us can meet in suitably hon. Gentleman and I have known each other for many covid-compliant surroundings. years, and while we might have differed on Brexit, there is another issue—and it is Scotland—on which we are Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): I welcome the very much in agreement. Can the right hon. Gentleman right hon. Gentleman’s statement, because it shows assure us today that every effort will be made to ensure what can be achieved with political commitment, and that this agreement, good as it is for Northern Ireland, 855 EU Withdrawal Agreement9 DECEMBER 2020 EU Withdrawal Agreement 856

[Christine Jardine] Michael Gove: The right hon. Gentleman makes a very important point in drawing attention to a very is not used to undermine Scotland’s position within the important provision within the Northern Ireland protocol. Union, and does he consider that my constituents in The Government came under criticism from some for Edinburgh West and elsewhere might benefit from the having provisions in the United Kingdom Internal Market same sort of phasing-in agreement as has been agreed Bill that upheld the sovereignty of this place in order to for Northern Ireland? uphold the constitutional and territorial integrity of the UK. We no longer need to use those provisions, because Michael Gove: I have known the hon. Lady, as she of the agreement we have reached, but he is absolutely says, for a few years—she is a brilliant MP and she is right. Of course, that provision remains, but I hope it absolutely right. The shadow Minister said that people will be the case that through patient and pragmatic should not play politics with the Good Friday agreement, discussion we can resolve any future issues in the way and I do not think they should. I think it is important to that we have resolved existing issues. recognise that Northern Ireland is in a unique position within the UK, and I think the majority of people in Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): I congratulate Scotland and across the UK recognise that, but it is also my right hon. Friend on reaching his agreement in important—the hon. Lady is absolutely right—that in principle, which shows that Britain is willing to make our arrangements with the EU, we take specific account constructive compromises. As it now stands, is there of the needs that Scotland has. On everything from the any part of the withdrawal agreement that requires provision of seasonal agricultural workers to making direct application of EU law to any part of the UK? sure that we can expedite fish and shellfish from the north-east to the EU, and indeed the principled position Michael Gove: Yes, it is the case that as a result of that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of some of the provisions in the Northern Ireland protocol, Trade is taking on whisky exports, it is absolutely important there will be a requirement on some businesses in Northern that we recognise that Scotland has distinct needs and Ireland specifically to follow the acquis. That is one of that working with the Scottish Government and the ways in which we can ensure that there is no need for Scottish MPs, like herself, we can advance Scotland’s border infrastructure between Ireland and Northern interests. Ireland.

Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con): Does my right hon. Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) [V]: Wewelcome yesterday’s Friend agree that the EU’s request for a mini embassy in agreement. We want for Northern Ireland just what we Northern Ireland was inflammatory for communities in want for Wales: unfettered access to our most important Northern Ireland and is not required to allow the EU to markets with the rest of the UK and with the EU. supervise processes carried out by UK authorities? However, the fundamentals of trade, particularly between Wales and Northern Ireland and indeed the Republic of Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Ireland, remain uncertain. Hauliers fear serious disruption There were some in the EU who wanted to mount a sort on the Holyhead to Dublin route, with the Welsh of land grab, as it were, and to have a part of Northern Government’s plans, agreed on Monday, for contraflows Ireland that was forever Brussels. But what we have and parking lots being too little, too late. What steps agreed is a pragmatic approach, which means that the has the right hon. Gentleman taken to lessen this potential EU, quite rightly, can have people in Northern Ireland disruption? so that it can be assured that the UK officials who are carrying out our own sovereign procedures are doing so Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman in a way in which everyone can have confidence. I want for his question. I know that because of the geographical again to place on record my thanks to Vice-President proximity of his constituency to Ynys Môn—to the Maroš Šefcˇovicˇfor making sure that it was pragmatic island of Anglesey—he has a particular concern. However, arrangements, rather than symbolism, that won through. we have been working well with the Welsh Government—I particularly thank their Counsel General, Jeremy Miles—to Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): I make sure that we will have infrastructure in Holyhead know that the right hon. Gentleman is as passionate as that can ensure that the second busiest roll-on roll-off I am about the Union. Article 6 of the Act of Union port in the UK continues to prosper. states very clearly there should be no barrier to trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, as is now. Sir (Harwich and North ) (Con): Article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol also makes May I just point out to my right hon. Friend that it clear that if whatever he agreed in the Joint Committee yesterday remains subject to the jurisdiction of the European “this Protocol leads to serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist…the United Kingdom” Court of Justice under the disputes procedure? Moreover, whatever he agreed yesterday was agreed only because Government we had the clauses in the UKIM Bill that were threatening “may unilaterally take appropriate safeguard measures.” to block the ECJ’s jurisdiction. Does he agree that it is Safeguarding the Union is not a three-month, six-month very important that we maintain the position that this or three-year project; it is an enduring commitment. House can at any time put blocks in front of the ECJ Will the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster now while this withdrawal agreement remains in force? give a commitment that, if necessary, the Government will introduce safeguard measures to ensure unfettered Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is right: this House is access in both directions for trade between Great Britain sovereign. This is as a result of bringing forward the and Northern Ireland? UKIM Bill. I understand some of the unease and 857 EU Withdrawal Agreement9 DECEMBER 2020 EU Withdrawal Agreement 858 controversy that it generated, but he is absolutely right in place, the UK will leave the transition period at the that following on from that we were able to make end of this month regardless of whether we reach an progress. We are now no longer in a position where we agreement with the EU? need to bring forward those clauses, but of course it is the sovereign right of this Parliament to legislate as it Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. thinks fit. Whatever happens—and we do hope that we get a free trade agreement—we will leave the customs union and Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP): We welcome the single market on 31 December. details that businesses have sought anxiously all year, and of course we keenly anticipate a wider trade deal Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: that might finally allow us to continue to enjoy the The Secretary of State will be—I hope—aware that conditions that we currently enjoy. How does he propose many of us will feel very sad that his career will end in to ensure continuity of supply for squeezed Northern failure if we do not get an agreement with the European Ireland households so that they can have choice and Union today or very soon. The Committee on the affordability after mitigations on export health certificates Future Relationship with the European Union, of which expire in six months? I am a member, recently listened to leaders from the Northern Ireland business, manufacturing and farming Michael Gove: Wehave been working with supermarkets communities saying that they do not think that everything and other traders to ensure that their supply lines and is fully operational. They do not think anything is the provision of all the goods that consumers in Northern oven-ready. They think that if anything were in the Ireland currently enjoy, which I hope in future will be oven, it would be pretty thin pickings. Will he please, enhanced, can remain. The Trader Support Service is please, at this late stage, make every effort to make sure there, alongside other support that we are giving to we get a deal, rather than leave without a deal? businesses in Northern Ireland and indeed across the UK, to make sure that a fully integrated part of the UK Michael Gove: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman internal market enjoys the same access to the same for his words. We will do everything we possibly can to goods as the rest of us. get a deal, but it cannot be a deal at any price. As for his point about my career ending in failure, my career has, I Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): Can my right am afraid, been marked by failure consistently in so hon. Friend assure me and all my constituents that, many ways. Often in politics I am reminded of the words should we strike a trade agreement with the EU, we will of Winston Churchill, who said that success means not compromise in any way on our fishing waters, our going from failure to failure with undiminished enthusiasm. borders and our laws, and, most importantly, that any That is what I hope to do. governance arrangements that may flow from any trade agreement are completely consistent with those of a fully Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con): I sovereign country? thank my right hon. Friend for his statement and careers advice. I warmly welcome the news of this significant Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is bang on. progress, but can he reassure the House that while the Government have said they will withdraw clauses 44, 45 Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): I wish we and 47 of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, were in a different place, where we did not need the the rest of the Bill will remain in place, so we can ensure protocol, but I recognise the progress that has been that goods can move seamlessly across the UK, benefiting made through the provisional agreement. Does the businesses and consumers across all four nations? Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster recognise that there is a range of unfinished business in relation to Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. protecting the Northern Ireland economy, including on The United Kingdom Internal Market Bill is a critical issues such as: transit from Great Britain via the Republic piece of legislation which safeguards the rights of producers of Ireland into Northern Ireland; access to EU free trade and consumers across the UK. The clauses she mentions agreements, particularly for our agrifood and dairy excited controversy, but I think they were necessary. In sectors; data adequacy and the protection of the service any case, that controversy can now pass because they sector on an all-Ireland basis? are being withdrawn. I hope the Bill will pass as well.

Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): for those points. He is right that there is important work The Government’s “Get Ready for Brexit” campaign still to be done. As I think he noted, it is the case that looks lovely, but it does not answer the question: get the services sector in Northern Ireland is totally exempt ready for what? Deal? No deal? What deal? Businesses from any state aid provisions. However, it is also the have a pandemic to deal with. Will the right hon. case that Northern Ireland has benefited from commercial Gentleman admit that the combination of Brexit shambles links with the Irish Republic, as well as its strong with the absence of proper support for small businesses position within the UK internal market. More work is facing covid-19 measures, and the total exclusion from required to strengthen Northern Ireland’s formidable support of so many businesses, means that the Government competitive position. are totally letting down small businesses in the north-east and across the country? Mark Jenkinson (Workington) (Con): The good people of my Workington constituency stand squarely behind Michael Gove: It will probably not surprise the hon. my right hon. Friend and Lord Frost in the negotiations. Lady to learn that I do not agree with her. When it Will he confirm that, with the agreement on the protocol comes to Brexit transition, we know that because we are 859 EU Withdrawal Agreement9 DECEMBER 2020 EU Withdrawal Agreement 860

[Michael Gove] position is on independence, but as jannies go, he is certainly one of the best. To the hon. Gentleman’s point, leaving the single market and the customs union, and Scotland does have the best of both worlds. It has a whether or not we secure a free trade agreement, much devolved Administration in Holyrood and representation of what most businesses need to do is broadly the same, by great MPs such as himself here in Westminster. and of course the Government stand ready to help businesses to adjust. Mr ( and Billericay) (Con) [V]: I The fate and the future of businesses in the north-east commend my right hon. Friend for the role he has are very dear to me, having lived and worked in Newcastle played and very much welcome this agreement. It is in the past. It is striking how many of those who work good news that the EU has compromised; its previous for businesses in the north-east voted Conservative just position on everything from unlimited checks to export 12 months ago, which is why Conservative MPs in Blyth declarations could have choked trade between Great Valley, in Bishop Auckland, in Redcar and across the Britain and Northern Ireland. Given that this agreement north-east are standing up—[Interruption.] I will mention will add an impetus to the wider trade talks, will he more constituencies that the Conservatives won if the commend the Prime Minister for not making last-minute hon. Lady likes: North West Durham, with Consett, is now compromises just to get a trade deal over the line? The a Conservative constituency; Sedgefield, with Spennymoor, Prime Minister has the support of the Conservative isnowaConservativeconstituency—[Interruption.]Anyway, party, should he decide to walk away and trade on as the hon. Lady and the House know, the north-east is Australia and Canada terms. After all, a trade deal is for Tory, and that is because we stand up for workers. keeps, not just for Christmas.

Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I remind Opposition Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Members that we all want a deal. There is no one on The point he makes, and the point that my right hon. this side who does not want a deal, but it must be a fair Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward deal and one that respects the UK’s integrity. On that Leigh) made earlier,reinforce the fact that the Conservative point, my right hon. Friend has said on many occasions party is united behind the Prime Minister. It is willing that we must leave together. In answering questions him to get a deal, but it is also ready to accept that if we from my right hon. Friend the Member for North cannot get the deal we want, we will not accept a deal at Somerset (Dr Fox) and my hon. Friend the Member for any price. That has to be the right way forward. Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin), he said—unless I am incorrect—that EU law will apply in Northern Ireland, as will the European Court of Justice. Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): Some We have gone to all this effort to be free of those 95% of Cumbrian farm exports are to the single market, structures. Can he say whether I have got it wrong or he so our farmers too need unfettered access to that market. has got it wrong—one or the other? The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said at the weekend that British farmers would not find tariffs with the EU to be “manageable”. Michael Gove: My hon. Friend never gets it wrong, In addition, in three weeks’ time, deal or no deal, English and he is right. It is there in the withdrawal agreement farmers will see the beginning of huge, uncompensated and in the protocol that we accept the acquis in a cuts to their income. We risk the loss of hundreds of specific number of areas in Northern Ireland. That is family farms in the Lakes, the Dales and elsewhere. part of the withdrawal agreement, which was signed Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that a country before the general election, and which many, though that cannot feed itself has no sovereignty? not all, Members of this House supported. It was also in the Conservative manifesto. Of course there were understandable concerns that the way in which the Michael Gove: The hon. Gentleman makes several protocol applied would mean that we would face tariffs very important points. The first is that we absolutely and other restrictions. The agreement that we have need to support upland farmers, not just in his beautiful concluded means that that will not be the case. The UK constituency and Cumbria, but across the United Kingdom. will leave and Northern Ireland will be capable of It is the case that sustainable livestock farming is the benefiting from trade deals that we do as a result of only way in which we can make sure that we have Brexit; it will also be outside the common agricultural agriculture in the future in upland and grassland areas policy and it will benefit from the Australian-style points- such as the one that he represents. The second thing is based immigration system that applies across the UK. that, yes, there is a prospect of tariffs if we do not secure a free trade agreement, which is why we need to have Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): While the Minister support systems in place for those. The third point is is telling Northern Ireland that it can have the best of that the new system of support that we are giving to both worlds, he is using the same reasoning to tell farmers combines support not just for small farmers, Scotland, “Shut up and get back in your box,” all the but for the climate change and environmental goals while claiming that any negative impacts are not Brexit- that we both share. It is important that we reform the related. Perhaps he has now become the Government’s common agricultural policy in that way, but I look very own Bart Simpson, causing chaos in presenting forward to continuing to work with him, because I know their agenda regardless of cost while claiming, “I didn’t that his commitment to rural and our farmers do it. Nobody saw me do it. You can’t prove anything.” is resolute.

Michael Gove: The Simpsons character I most Mrs (Meon Valley) (Con) [V]: I remembered was Groundskeeper Willie, because he is welcome the principle that exit summary declarations an Aberdonian. [Interruption.] I am not sure what his for goods from Northern Ireland to the rest of UK will 861 EU Withdrawal Agreement9 DECEMBER 2020 EU Withdrawal Agreement 862 not be required, but while it is reasonable for EU Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): The Democratic authorities to supervise the application of the protocol Unionist party opposed the protocol and warned about to Northern Ireland, can my right hon. Friend assure all the problems that the Minister is now having to me that all processes in UK sovereign territory will be address. We welcome the changes that have been made carried out by UK authorities? today. Nevertheless, the real test will be how these measures work on the ground, rather than the spin that Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It we get in this House. As far as EU officials are concerned, is about UK authorities carrying out our procedures in is it not a fact that although they will not carry out the our territory under our laws. searches and investigations, they will be able to direct UK officials on the ground, and, under article 5 of LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): the protocol, UK officials will have to carry out their This was the never-ending story, but it seems a bit like it demands? The Irish Government are now spinning that is turning into a never-ending nightmare for businesses, the six-month period is simply to allow supermarkets in which have been told not of a settled situation, but that Northern Ireland to source their products from the the can is going to be kicked down the road for three to Irish Republic. Does the Minister believe that we have six months. Is it not time to be honest with the British gained back sovereignty if we are allowing EU officials people and say, “This will never end. Negotiations will to direct our officials and other Governments to tell us continue forever,” because this Government are just not where we can get our food from? capable of securing decent deals that are settled wills with the European Union? Michael Gove: As the right hon. Gentleman quite rightly points out, there were a number of very principled Michael Gove: I absolutely take the hon. Gentleman’s opponents of the whole idea of the protocol itself. He point, but it is the case that in the future we will be and his colleagues in his party laid out some of their negotiating new free trade deals, as it happens, with concerns in a very cogent fashion. In the end, the House other countries outside the European Union that we of Commons decided that the protocol, as part of the could not have negotiated inside the EU.These negotiations withdrawal agreement, was the right way to proceed, but, are led by my brilliant colleague, the President of the as he quite rightly points out, it was important that a Board of Trade. She has secured deals—for example, number of difficult questions were addressed. He is also with Japan—that are even better than that we had in the absolutely right that the proof will be in the implementation EU, so negotiating going on is what Trade Secretaries on the ground. do, and we are lucky to have the best in the world. Let me turn to the two specific areas that the right hon. Gentleman mentions. It is the case that the limited Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): I welcome my right hon. number of EU officials—I think it is probably no more Friend’s statement, in which he spoke of the importance than two dozen at most—who will come into Northern of providing clarity for business. Will he confirm that Ireland will be working alongside UK officials. The UK clarity will include ensuring that manufacturers from officials will be in the lead there, but we want to provide across the UK will continue to be able to trade freely the EU with assurance. On the matter of where goods with a market of 500 million consumers who are on our are sourced from, I cannot think of any better place for doorstep? goods in Northern Ireland supermarkets to be sourced from than Northern Ireland itself. Wonderful though Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes an important produce in the Republic of Ireland is, I do not think it is point. He has been a consistently strong and coherent the case that there is any better producer—[Interruption.] voice for manufacturing, not just in his native west The hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) midlands, but across the United Kingdom. One of the asks about bananas. I think he is referring, of course, to things that we want to secure is a free trade agreement SNP policy on trade. But when it comes to pork products, that ensures that our manufacturing and advanced there is nothing better than an Ulster fry. manufacturing sector can continue to sell into a market on our doorstep. (Windsor) (Con): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for your kindness—and I thank my Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame ): I call right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office for Emma Lewell-Buck. Not here. his kindness—towards my many children, who have been here on many occasions. My nine-year-old, Atticus, Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con): I, too, welcome said to me when he got sight of the question that I was this package and what it means for business, peace and going to ask today, “But, dad, the answer to that question our Union. Dare I say that news of tariff-free lamb is so obvious!” I am going to ask it anyway. Despite our comes close to being glad tidings for the shepherds on desire for a good trade deal with the European Union, the hillsides above Aberconwy this Christmas time. Lest does my right hon. Friend agree that we must never we get lost in that kind of detail, will my right hon. again cede control of our borders or coastal waters to a Friend confirm that there is nothing in this agreement foreign power? that compromises the integrity of either our sovereignty or the Union? Michael Gove: Well, I knew that my hon. Friend was a great dad, because his son absolutely hits the nail on Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. the head in saying that the answer to that question is This House remains sovereign and it is the case that the obvious. No, we absolutely should not cede that control. territorial and political integrity of the United Kingdom Very good question; the answer is clear. Excellent son; remains robust. brilliant dad. 863 EU Withdrawal Agreement9 DECEMBER 2020 EU Withdrawal Agreement 864

Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab) [V]: The vehicle Michael Gove: No, I do not think that it is Honda; industry has consistently warned that a no-deal Brexit I think that there is a global problem with container risks the future of UK plants and skilled, unionised traffic. That point has been well made by those who are jobs. Without a deal, Luton-made Vauxhall vans could leading our major ports. face tariffs of 22%. Coupled with covid, cuts to our council and no support for our aviation industry, for James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): Is the recent Luton no deal would make this a job-killing Government. removal of clauses from the United Kingdom Internal With just 22 days to go before the end of the transition Market Bill a sweetener for the European Union or an period, can the Minister guarantee that there will be no indicator that early white smoke might be forthcoming tariffs on vans and cars made in this country? on a wider trade deal?

Michael Gove: The automobile sector is important Michael Gove: We made that decision as a Government not just in Luton, where there are so many skilled because we believed that we had satisfied all our aims people producing fantastic products, but across the UK. in the discussions on the protocol. It was a sovereign Of course, if we secure a free trade agreement, it will be decision, but I hope that it will help to ensure that we a zero-tariffs, zero-quota agreement. If we do not secure get a free trade agreement. that agreement, there will be tariffs, but there will also be tariffs on automobiles coming into the UK, and that Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): I will have an impact on industry in the EU. welcome the withdrawal of clauses 44, 45 and 47 of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, but has the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): We Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster any plans to are only halfway through the call list. It would be best if carry out an assessment of the impact of the threats to I can manage to get everybody who wants to ask a breach a recently signed treaty on the United Kingdom’s question on this very important subject in to ask such international standing and its ability to enter future a question. agreements, given that it is now known across the world that the United Kingdom is prepared to break its word Sir (New Forest West) (Con): Hear, to get its way? hear! Michael Gove: The hon. and learned Lady will know that since we introduced those clauses into the Bill, we Madam Deputy Speaker: I see that I have some agreement have succeeded in signing any number of trade agreements from the right hon. Gentleman, who is quite far down with other countries. That is because the reputation of the list. I must therefore insist on having questions—just the UK continues to stand high. short questions—and not great big statements. We all know what has already happened. Let us just have (Harlow) (Con) [V]: My right hon. Friend questions for the Minister, so that we can then just have has played a blinder, but given that the EU withdrawal answers from the Minister. means that British Government procurement will no longer be subject to Official Journal of the European Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): I welcome Union rules, what concrete steps will he take to ensure the agreement and thank my right hon. Friend and his that Northern Ireland companies and businesses across civil service team for getting us to this stage, but may I Great Britain that wish to procure contracts with urge him to spend some time with the Protestant Unionist Government can do so only if they employ a significant loyalist community, who have retained concerns about number of apprentices? the detail? I suggest that Mikala’s Kitchen on the Shankill Road is the best place for that engagement. Could he Michael Gove: The Chairman of the Select Committee also now spend some time with the nationalist community, on Education makes a very important point. My noble unaligned voters and passionate supporters of the European Friend Lord Agnew will shortly bring forward a paper Union in Northern Ireland to demonstrate to them that on procurement reform, which will show exactly how the practical approach that he and the EU have taken we can achieve the ambition for apprenticeships that on the protocol can now be replicated on issues such as my right hon. Friend has so consistently and brilliantly climate change, health, jobs and the future of all people put forward. across the island of Ireland? Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): May I follow Michael Gove: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right: on from the question asked by my hon. Friend the there is more work to do. I always enjoy any opportunity Member for Warwick and Leamington (Matt Western) to be in Northern Ireland with my right hon. Friend the about the situation with Honda? Given that chaos at Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. My right hon. ports is already occurring before the end of the transition Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian period—I understand that that is because people are Smith) was an outstanding Secretary of State for Northern stockpiling because they are so worried about what will Ireland, and he makes a series of very important points happen next year—can the Chancellor of the Duchy of that I take completely to heart. Lancaster confidently say that the perfect storm of Christmas, Brexit stockpiling, covid restrictions and the Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): Honda new customs regime will not lead to significant disruption has just announced that it has had to pause production come January? because of problems with getting components through ports. Does the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Michael Gove: It is a very fair point that a number of suggest that failing to get those parts is entirely down to things are coming together this Christmas, and it is Honda, or do the Government share some of the blame? helpful that the hon. Lady contextualises the fact that 865 EU Withdrawal Agreement9 DECEMBER 2020 EU Withdrawal Agreement 866 the situation with containers is a result of many factors. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) We are doing everything we can to ensure that trade (Ind): From 1 January onwards, if he was a business continues to flow freely, but as she quite rightly points owner primarily exporting to the UK, would the right out, there are a number of factors with which all hon. Gentleman prefer to be located in Northern Ireland Governments are having to grapple. or Wales?

Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con): With clauses Michael Gove: That is the most difficult question I 44, 45 and 47 of the United Kingdom Internal Market have ever faced in this House, because I love Northern Bill now withdrawn, can my right hon. Friend reassure Ireland and I love Wales as well, and there are all sorts the House that seamless trade between Northern Ireland of advantages to being located in either jurisdiction. I and the rest of the UK will continue, despite any suspect that my choice would be made even more difficult suggestion from the European Union to interpret the if I had to choose between, say,Carmarthenshire and North withdrawal agreement in such a way as to prevent our Antrim—two uniquely beautiful parts of the United internal market, which has functioned for centuries? Kingdom. It is Sophie’s choice, in business terms, because wherever you are located in the United Kingdom, you Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I benefit from having a strong Government determined should stress that there were some in the EU who did to ensure that this country can take advantage of global have precisely that agenda, but Vice-President Maroš opportunities. Šefcˇovicˇhas done a great job of making sure that this is an arrangement that works for everyone. The superb Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): Will the jurisdiction ceramic products made in my hon. Friend’s constituency of the European Court of Justice continue to prevail in will continue to flow on to tables in Belfast, Ballymena, relation to the Northern Ireland protocol, and if that is Strabane and Derry/Londonderry. the case, how is that state of affairs compatible with the restoration of United Kingdom sovereignty?

Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Does the Minister Michael Gove: In the withdrawal agreement that we regret the fact that the Government abolished the expert concluded before the last election and which this House trade advisory groups, which were set up to advise the voted on—not every Member, of course, supported it, Government on customs and continuity in trade, and but a majority did—we made it clear that within the were disbanded in July because some of the members Northern Ireland protocol there would be a limited refused to sign non-disclosure agreements? Would it not portion of the acquis relating to goods in the single have made more sense to keep the trade advisory groups market that would apply in Northern Ireland. It was the going to help to avoid the disruption we have been aim of this House and the aim of this Government to hearing about at the ports and the delays in essential food ensure that we could reach a satisfactory arrangement and manufacturing parts that are being widely reported on the protocol in line with the principles that we laid today? out in the Command Paper, and that is what we have done. That upholds the territorial integrity of the United Michael Gove: Well, that is all news to me, but maybe Kingdom and the ability of every citizen of the UK to the hon. Gentleman has a point—I do not know. benefit from all the opportunities that Brexit provides.

Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con) Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): Will the [V]: I commend my right hon. Friend, and also the Minister comment on the UK Government’s commitment vice-president, for reaching an amicable and sensible to the Peace Plus programme, which, as he will know, agreement. I also wish the Prime Minister well, and has played such an important role in underpinning hope that neither of the two diners tonight gets indigestion peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland? and that they achieve an acceptable deal for both the EU and, in particular, our own country. Michael Gove: We are totally committed, and the At the end of last month, Jim Harra told the Public Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will be saying Accounts Committee that Her Majesty’s Revenue and more about that in the coming days. Customs is concentrating on seven key IT systems that need to be changed or built from new to enable GB-EU Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con): Can my trade to continue and to enable us to comply, particularly, right hon. Friend reassure me that in tonight’snegotiations, with the Northern Ireland protocol. Will my right hon. and in the ongoing negotiations with the EU, the Prime Friend update me on those systems? Will they be completed Minister and his team will remember just how important before the end of the transition period? securing a deal will be to Cumbrian farmers, and indeed farmers across the four nations? Michael Gove: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. There are a number of systems: the trader support Michael Gove: Absolutely.For Cumbrian farmers, and Service, or TSS; the movement assistance scheme, or alsoformanufacturersinBarrow,wewillbedoingeverything MAS; the goods vehicle management scheme, or GVMS; possible to get the best possible set of arrangements. and CDS, or the customs declaration service, which is the new replacement for CHIEF—customs handling of Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): import and export freight—in HMRC. That is quite a The temporary food waiver for trusted traders is very lot of acronyms. A lot of work has gone into making much to be welcomed and my right hon. Friend is to be sure that we will be ready. Some of it is close to the wire, congratulated on securing it, but may I press him a little but I am confident that everything will be in place. on the detail of what will then follow, because businesses 867 EU Withdrawal Agreement9 DECEMBER 2020 EU Withdrawal Agreement 868

[Dr Andrew Murrison] and admin cost to businesses of putting in place the new contractual clauses they will have to introduce in need certainty? What he has had to say will of course be order to continue to exchange data with their European welcome to the big supermarkets, but smaller operators, partners? small shops and street traders, on whom the great Ulster fry depends so much, will still be left in a level of Michael Gove: That is a very important question. I do uncertainty, particularly if they are not signed up to the not have an exact estimate of what the cost of the trusted trader scheme. Will he say to what extent the standard contractual clauses would be, but because we trusted trader scheme will extend to small operators of are currently compliant with the general data protection that sort? regulation, I see no reason why data adequacy should not be granted. Michael Gove: My right hon. Friend, who was an outstanding Northern Ireland Minister, is absolutely Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con) right. Once the Joint Committee concludes, we will go [V]: I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement and into more detail on exactly how we can safeguard congratulate him on his hard work in achieving this the interests of small and medium-sized enterprises as agreement. Will he confirm that this is a pragmatic and well. We will notify the Commission of those businesses sensible approach to protect Northern Ireland’s place in that need to take advantage of the grace period that we the UK’s customs territory? have got. Michael Gove: Absolutely—my right hon. Friend has Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): RTÉ reports been a consistent champion for business and enterprise on the derogation for sausages, chilled meats and unfrozen in all his years in this House, and he is absolutely right. prepared meals and notes that This pragmatic approach works for businesses in his “once a derogation period has elapsed, Northern supermarkets constituency and in Northern Ireland. will have to source such products locally or from the South.” Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why it is acceptable Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Will the right hon. to him to disadvantage Scotland and our food exporters Gentleman correct his claim on this morning’s “Today” in such a way? Is it not just another example of why programme that, in the event of no deal, we will continue Scotland would be better off as an independent nation to benefit from free healthcare if we visit the rest of state within the EU? Europe after 1 January and our students will continue to benefit from the Erasmus programmes? Michael Gove: If Scotland were an independent nation state, it would face trade barriers at Berwick and Cairnryan. Michael Gove: It is the case that students who are By leaving the European Union, Scotland would currently engaged on Erasmus programmes will continue be—[Interruption.] I am just pointing out the inevitable to be part of them until the end of that academic course. consequences of the course on which the hon. Lady has It is also the case that UK citizens who have been living set her heart, which would make sure that if Scotland in EU countries are covered by the withdrawal agreement became independent, it would face tariff and regulatory rights that we all voted on—I think the right hon. barriers to access its biggest market, which is the rest of Gentleman voted against, but nevertheless we protected the UK. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady asks why; that is their rights. the inevitable consequence of independence, alongside the abandonment of the pound sterling and re-entry Mr Bradshaw: Absolutely outrageous. into the common fisheries policy. It is a terrible course to go on. Because I admire the hon. Lady so much, I Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. hope she will recognise that the future of her Glasgow constituents is better secured by staying in the United Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): I am Kingdom than by going down the perilous path to grateful to my right hon. Friend for suggesting the separation that the SNP have argued for, like a pied piper, lucrative opportunity of exporting conflict diamonds, for many decades. but just how burdensome will the additional paperwork of which he spoke be? Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): I welcome the pragmatic approach that has been taken in Michael Gove: Given that there is very little trade that reachingthisagreement,whichrespectstheUK’ssovereignty I am aware of in conflict diamonds from Northern and independence as we leave the EU while recognising Ireland to Great Britain—if anything, it is an even the need for the EU to protect its single market. Does smaller trade than, for example, endangered species my right hon. Friend agree that that same pragmatism products such as tiger skins—I suspect that the bureaucratic now needs to be applied to a trade deal, while respecting burden will be so small as to be almost naked—sorry, those same principles? Will he join me in wishing the I mean invisible to the naked eye. [Laughter.] Prime Minister well at his dinner tonight? (Rhondda) (Lab): The mind boggles. Michael Gove: I absolutely do, and I also hope that I am all for pragmatism, because that is the best way on the EU side we see something of the same pragmatism to sort out a deal that works for Welsh lamb farmers that we have seen on this particular issue. and, for that matter, British car manufacturers and all the rest of it, but I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): If there is no data about the foreign policy element. On a pragmatic basis, adequacy agreement by the end of this month, what is we have always done rather well out of persuading the right hon. Gentleman’s current estimate of the legal other countries in Europe to adopt, for instance, sanctions 869 EU Withdrawal Agreement9 DECEMBER 2020 EU Withdrawal Agreement 870 against Putin, and we have tried to get people on board Michael Gove: My hon. Friend, like so many who with our policy on Hong Kong. How will we be able to served with distinction in Northern Ireland, contributed do that in future if we have poisoned the well by not to ending terrorism. Those were hard-won gains, and having any long-lasting trade deal at the end of the week? there will certainly be no return to physical infrastructure of the kind that he had to negotiate when he so bravely Michael Gove: The hon. Gentleman makes an important served his country. point. Obviously it would be in our interests to secure a deal, but not at any price. He has been a consistent Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): Can the right hon. champion of a tougher approach towards Russia and Gentleman give me an indication of when we will finish an advocate of the Magnitsky sanctions. The Foreign negotiating and debating Brexit, given that 10 months Secretary also was a consistent champion for that. We on from getting Brexit done, we are still debating the adopted those sanctions, and the EU followed. That is same issues, and he said in his statement that further no criticism of the EU, but it is the case that we can details will be worked through in the month ahead? continue to have influence. Obviously, if we have a satisfactory arrangement with the EU, that would work Michael Gove: Far be it from me to prevent Liberal for everyone. Democrats talking about whatever they wish to talk about. As I recall, the first person in this House to argue (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): for an in/out referendum was the former right hon. Does my right hon. Friend agree that today’s welcome Member for Sheffield, Hallam and Deputy Prime Minister, announcement is the perfect combination of principle Nick Clegg, and people in the Liberal Democrats are and pragmatism—an approach to the negotiations that still calling for referendums. I am a traditionalist; I love our businessmen take every day, which will serve them the fact that the Liberal Democrats are consistent in well as we embrace the future, and that only the Opposition their determination to ensure that, however many seem to find exceptional? referendums we have, we must have more. I am sure that Gladstone, Grey, Harcourt and Chamberlain would all Michael Gove: My hon. Friend has had a brilliant salute the determination of the Liberal Democrats to business career, and he is absolutely right: we need to stay true to their tradition and, when everyone else has negotiate toughly and be prepared to be flexible in settled the question, to say, “Let’s reopen it.” certain circumstances but know ultimately what we want. As we heard from the Leader of the Opposition Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): I congratulate my earlier, I am afraid that when it comes to Brexit, we still right hon. Friend on securing this agreement. It is do not know what Labour wants. absolutely right that it must be only the UK authorities that perform any checks. When it comes to the EU Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): If Brexit is authorities supervising or observing, will he confirm that shaping up to be such a success, why is it that four and a they will be paying for that and that they do not expect half years after the referendum, no other European UK taxpayers to pick up the bill for their presence? country is seeking to follow the UK out the door? Why are they not looking at these deals being negotiated with envy and thinking that they want a piece of the Michael Gove: It is absolutely the case that the EU action? In fact, what is happening is that countries such will be paying for it. I hope that while people from the as Scotland are looking at the European Union and EU’s agencies are in Northern Ireland, they will take deciding that that is where they want their future to be. advantage of Northern Ireland’s wonderful hospitality It is the United Kingdom that is being left isolated. as well.

Michael Gove: What a remarkable rewriting of history. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The Democratic Just yesterday I was watching CNN, and I saw an Unionist party has remained consistent that there must amazing91-year-oldgentlemancalledMartinKenyon—one be no border down the Irish sea. Can the Chancellor of of the first people in the world to be vaccinated, and he the Duchy of Lancaster give me an assurance that in was vaccinated here in the United Kingdom. It is because 2021, the year we mark the centenary of the Union, the of the United Kingdom’s superb regulatory work, our good people of Strangford will have no impediment vaccine taskforce, our NHS and our Health Secretary placed on them by Brussels to buying foodstuffs from that the first people in the world to be vaccinated were fellow British citizens in England, Scotland and Wales? here in the United Kingdom. There are vaccines in Scotland thanks to the UK. The rest of the world is Michael Gove: Absolutely.The citizens of the beautiful looking on in admiration at our British NHS. On today Ards peninsula will continue to enjoy the rights that we of all days, it would be nice—and, to be fair, lots of uphold as shared UK citizens. Scottish nationalist Ministers have made this point—to acknowledge that the UK Government have been working (Winchester) (Con): My constituents in the interests of everyone, and people have been will be joyed by the changes to the United Kingdom looking at Britain and saying, “That’s great.” Internal Market Bill, as my right hon. Friend knows. The Joint Committee has clearly done its job and shown Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I commanded on that rumours of compromise’s demise are greatly over- and off a hard checkpoint on the A5 between South stated. The British Government have moved and shown Tyrone and County Monaghan for up to two years, much seasonal goodwill, but does he agrees that this where we had chicanes, sangars and obstacles. Can my announcement truly works for us all only if it is followed right hon. Friend assure me that, on 1 January, there imminently by good news on the wider EU-UK trade will be no sign of that hard checkpoint left? deal? 871 EU Withdrawal Agreement 9 DECEMBER 2020 872

Michael Gove: The deal works in its own right. It shows UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces the virtue of principle and pragmatism allied. If we do Deployment secure a free trade agreement, that would be an additional helpful bonus. 2.7 pm Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con) [V]: I thank and The Minister for the Armed Forces (James Heappey): congratulate my right hon. Friend on arriving at the With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a position that he has. The Good Friday agreement is statement to update the House on UK support for the protected, the Union has been secured and, more UN stabilisation mission in Mali, which supports the importantly, the rule of law has been upheld. I seek his peace process, helping to counter the spread of instability assurance that, during the grace period, he and his in the Sahel. ministerial colleagues will provide strong and active support This month, 300 United Kingdom troops led by the to businesses of all sizes in Great Britain and Northern Light Dragoons battlegroup will complete their deployment Ireland to ensure that they are able to meet the challenges into the United Nations mission in Mali, known as of the new regime successfully. MINUSMA. Over recent years, Mali has become one of the most unstable countries on the African continent. Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes an absolutely Terrorist aggression and conflict between communities critical point. I thank him and the Northern Ireland have been on the rise and the United Nations Multi- Affairs Committee,which he chairs,for the rigorous scrutiny dimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in Mali is that they have applied throughout this process, which mandated to support the Malian people in their effort has ensured that the Government have been kept up to to secure sustainable peace, to support the re-establishment the mark. He is right that concluding the agreement is of state authority, to protect civilians and to promote just one step. We need to continue to support businesses and protect human rights in Mali. in Northern Ireland, large and small, as they face the challenges and take advantage of the opportunities By 22 December, the majority of our 300 UK armed ahead. forces personnel will have deployed to MINUSMA and completed quarantine. Our contingent consists of Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I will 250 troops from the Light Dragoons, the Royal Anglian now suspend the House for three minutes to allow Members Regiment and other attached personnel, and a further to leave safely and compliantly, and to allow other 50 forming a national support element. They will soon Members to come in. begin operations in Mali, joining some 60 other nations contributing to the UN mission. 2.3 pm The UK has committed to a three-year deployment Sitting suspended. to MINUSMA, with a review to be held at the 18-month point. UK personnel will deploy on six-month operational tours. Accordingly, the first deployment, led by the Light Dragoons, will be replaced by a second contingent, led by the , in the summer of 2021. This Government take their responsibility as a permanent member of the UN Security Council seriously. Our deployment to MINUSMA reflects our continued commitment to, and growing leadership in, multilateralism and international peace and security. Our nation has a proud peacekeeping track record, as we demonstrate global Britain in practice. This deployment builds on a successful multi-year commitment to the UN mission in South Sudan, where UK peacekeepers were responsible for building hospitals, bridges and roads. In the Sahel region, more than 15 million people need humanitarian assistance. Some 11 million are food insecure and more than 3 million are displaced because of the conflict. As with many conflicts around the world, women and girls in Mali are disproportionately affected by the continuing instability. The Sahel is the worst region on earth to be an adolescent girl seeking 12 years of quality education, as it accounts for an astonishing 7% of the world’s population of primary age girls who are out of school. By 2030, almost one in five women aged 20 to 39 in the continent of Africa who have no education will be living in the Sahel. Mali is at the forefront of countries in the Sahel affected by instability. Terrorism and conflict are sharply on the rise. Mali has already registered more deaths due to violence this year than any previous year in the past decade.This violence is costing lives,hindering development across one of the world’s poorest countries and spreading instability to the wider region. 873 UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces 9 DECEMBER 2020 UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces 874 Deployment Deployment International action is the right thing to do from a contain the worst consequences of violent conflict and humanitarian perspective, but history shows us that to help build confidence in the political process under way international efforts to restore law, order and security supporting longer-term peace and reconciliation. are also the best way to prevent unstable regions from UN peacekeeping operations are currently protecting becoming safe havens for terrorist groups. It is in the more than 125 million of the world’s most vulnerable UK’s interests to act. people across 13 different missions, consisting of more Terrorist violence and conflict have risen sharply over than 98,000 troops, police and civilians. Combined, they recent years, and the permissive environment provided provide a critical tool in containing and reducing conflict by the current instability in Mali and the wider region in the world’s most fragile environments. creates the space for developing threats. That harms To function effectively, UN peacekeeping relies on UK interests and also those of our allies and partners, contributions from its members,especially more experienced especially France and others in Europe. It is in all our militaries such as the UK’s. Our deployment is a highly interests that we work together to protect civilians and capable contingent able to support stronger mission help build a safer, healthier and more prosperous future performance and longer-term reform. The UK’s military for the region. contribution to UN peacekeeping in Mali is a clear Our contribution will provide critical capabilities to illustration of how our defence and security capabilities the UN mission at a vital time. We can have genuine can contribute to the UK’s role as a force for good in impact on the mission’s overall approach. To help reduce the world, working hand in hand to support the the spread of conflict and insecurity contributes to the Government’s development and diplomatic agenda. protection of civilians and supports Mali’s pathway to It is important to stress that deploying to MINUSMA sustainable peace. This deployment is a vital part of does not come without risk. However, our forces are our work in the Sahel to build stability, bolster conflict world-class and we have provided them with the right resolution, improve the humanitarian response and training, equipment and preparation to succeed in a strengthen partnerships between the international complex operating environment. We have taken steps to community and regional governments in responding to mitigate the risks, and I am confident that our troops the crisis. will make the UK proud by having a strong impact on Wewill be joining a UN mission led by a civilian special the ground in Mali. They will bolster our standing in representative of the UN Secretary-General and an the United Nations and will help us in our endeavours international peacekeeping force of over 60 nations, led to make the UN and its peacekeeping missions as by the Swedish UN mission force commander Lieutenant effective as possible. General Dennis Gyllensporre. It is a truly global As a permanent member of the United Nations collaboration, with contributions from our western allies, Security Council, we are fully committed to supporting including Germany and France, and African nations the UN’s peacekeeping missions around the world and contributing large contingents to support their regional to encouraging them to be as effective as possible. Our stability. MINUSMA deployment is a key part of that commitment The initial objective of the first rotation of troops and, as the Prime Minister recently noted, our uplift will be to understand the operating environment so that in defence spending should allow the UK to shape they are best placed to support the UN mission going international security and provide a stronger contribution forward. The UK taskforce will be under command of to global Britain. the Light Dragoons’ commanding officer. Armed with Finally, may I thank all those serving in Mali and cutting-edge technology,our troops will provide a specialist around the world this Christmas for their service to our reconnaissance capability, which aims to improve the nation and extend that gratitude to their families, friends mission’s overall performance, particularly in protecting and loved ones who will be celebrating Christmas in civilians. Our contingent will offer crucial support to their absence? I know everyone in all parts of the House the mission to better understand threats and to shape will want to wish all our service personnel serving over the mission’sresponse, enabling intelligence-led operations Christmas a safe tour and as merry a Christmas as they across the mission’s mandate. can manage. Our MINUSMA deployment complements existing commitments we have in the region, including helicopter 2.16 pm support to Operation Barkhane, the French-led counter- terrorism initiative in the Sahel region. Although the John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): I thank two missions are complementary, they are distinct in the Minister for advance sight of his statement. It was their objectives and tactics. Our experience in Mali will good to have the written statement last Thursday, as also help to develop our world-class training for troops began to arrive in Mali; it is better still to have peacekeepers that we provide each year in Africa. Our his oral statement today, with the Minister ready to aim is that the response to more security challenges in answer the range of questions that arise from this new Africa will be African-led, and we are mentoring deployment. and training others on the continent to help us achieve Let me say at the outset, as I said to the House on that goal. Monday, that Labour strongly supports this commitment The UK believes in peacekeeping as a way to stabilise of UK troops to the UN peacekeeping mission in Mali, and contain conflict. Our contribution to MINUSMA, and we do so with our eyes wide open to the risks they alongside our enduring commitments to the UN peace- face. The public expect Ministers to be open about this keeping operations in Cyprus and Somalia and the staff too, so I hope the Minister will undertake to give officers we have deployed to six other UN missions, is regular reports on progress to Parliament during this the UK playing its part in a multinational effort to deployment. 875 UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces 9 DECEMBER 2020 UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces 876 Deployment Deployment [John Healey] for what they are going out to do. He rightly asked some questions that I will do my best to answer, starting with, The Minister rightly said today that deploying “to of course, an intent to regularly update the House either MINUSMA does not come without risk.” The UN has verbally—although that met with no support from my described this as its most dangerous mission, with hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart)—or 227 personnel killed since 2013, so what assessment has otherwise on the progress of the mission and the threat he made of these risks and what specific steps have been as it evolves. taken to reduce them? Last week the French base in Mali The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to pick at Gao was attacked; where will our troops be stationed up on the line in my statement that says that this and how secure will the British base be? mission is not without risk. This is a dangerous part of The Defence Secretary has told us: the world in which to be operating. It is because it is “This deployment reflects our continued commitment to such a dangerous part of the world that the case for multilateralism and international peace and security”.—[Official being there as part of a peacekeeping force is so easily Report, 3 December 2020; Vol. 685, c. 14W.] made. We should be clear that, despite all the training, As a permanent member of the UN Security Council, all the equipment and all the mitigations that we will Britain does have this special responsibility, which we in put in place—I will explain some of those in a second—our Labour also take seriously; too often, however, there troops are accepting a risk to life and limb in serving in has been a view that, somehow, peacekeeping is beneath the Sahel, and we thank them for that. We genuinely Britain, so I hope to see confirmation in the integrated believe that it is in the interests of the UK and the review that this has changed as part of the Government’s people of Mali that we contribute to that mission. plans for a post-Brexit global Britain. We have recognised that in previous deployments Certainly, as with Mali, where Britain has special perhaps there has been a gung-ho willingness to expand military skills we should step up, and the Light Dragoons the mission quickly and get on with things without fully and the Royal Anglian Regiment are filling a capability understanding the realities of the threat on the ground gap in Mali as long-range reconnaissance specialists. and how that manifests itself in relation to military Since the Government first announced the intention to operations. In this first rotation—the first six months—we deploy these troops in July 2019, however, Mali has will be expecting the Light Dragoons battle group to become more complex, less stable, more violent. This deploy and to find its way in the immediate vicinity of deployment is rightly limited; what measures must be Gao, the city in which the UN camp where they will be met for the Government to judge it a success, are there based is. If, over time, we come to understand that they circumstances in which the Government would widen can operate at range, we will consider that on its merits, the scope or increase the size of this UK military depending on the mission design from the UN force mission, and could troops in this UN deployment also commander. Our intention is to find our way slowly, to serve in the distinct and complementary French-led build our confidence and our understanding, and then Barkhane mission? to grow the mission, within the confines of MINUSMA. The Government have said that It is important to stress that there is no UK agency in being able just to decide what we do; we are under the “it is stepping up its engagement in the Sahel across the development, diplomacy and defence pillars”. command of the UN force commander. The Minister says that there is, rightly, very significant The right hon. Gentleman asked me about the camp. development interest in Mali, with 6.8 million people in It is a brand-new camp, and it is indeed in the UN need of humanitarian assistance. There are also significant super-camp at Gao. That camp is protected by a German security concerns, with drugs cartels, arms traffickers, early warning system called MANTIS—the modular, and al-Qaeda and Islamic State terror groups all active automatic and network capable targeting and interception in the region. When co-ordinated action and help are system—which picks up the IDF, or indirect fire attack, clearly needed, the deep cuts made in the spending which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned in his reply. review to the conflict, stability and security fund could That allows people in the camp to take cover and adopt not have come at a worse time for the Sahel. Will the all of their drills when there is incoming indirect fire. costs of this Mali deployment be met from that fund? Sadly, as a veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan, I know How much in development aid is planned for Mali and that that is just the reality of being in camps in those the other Sahel countries over the three-year period places, but these early warning systems give people of this military deployment, and how are Britain’s great confidence that they can find cover before the development, diplomatic and defence activities being rounds start landing. co-ordinated within Government? This is, indeed, a complex mission. The UN’s mission Finally, Britain’s responsibilities as a leading UN is made all the more challenging as a consequence of member are being met with this Mali mission, alongside the changing political tides in Mali—there was a coup our continuing commitment to peacekeeping operations only four months ago—and that means that the military in eight other countries around the world. I pay tribute mission, as designed by the UN force commander, and to our armed forces personnel who serve in these missions. the political mission have some work to do to evolve They will, as the Minister says, continue to make the and to react to those new political realities in Mali, hence UK proud. our caution over the speed at which we unleashed the Light Dragoons on their mission. We want to see how James Heappey: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for things develop, and we will update the right hon. Gentleman his positive response to the statement. As we were and colleagues as that happens. saying in the Remembrance Day debate a few weeks There is no scope to widen the size of our force; we ago, as people deploy on missions such as this it matters are limited by what the UN requires of us. There is also enormously to see support on both sides of the House no scope for us to decide unilaterally, as the United 877 UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces 9 DECEMBER 2020 UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces 878 Deployment Deployment Kingdom, that we want to do more; we are within the Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP) [V]: I UN’s mission. MINUSMA and Operation Barkhane thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement. It are entirely separate; there is no opportunity to flex one is important that the House is kept fully informed on from the other, as to do so would be to break the rules issues such as this. The Scottish National party firmly on UN peacekeeping contingents. In any case, the missions supports the deployment of UK personnel in supporting are so different; Barkhane is a more offensive, counter- the UN mission in Mali. It is important that the UK terrorism operation, chasing both JNIM—Jamaat Nusrat continues to promote global justice and peace. I support al-Islam wal-Muslimin—and Islamic State in the Greater the Minister from a humanitarian perspective and echo Sahara around not only Mali, but Burkina Faso and his point that international efforts to support law, order Niger. MINUSMA is a Mali-only peacekeeping operation and security are also the best way to prevent unstable led by the UN. regions from becoming safe havens for terrorist groups. Finally, the right hon. Gentleman asked me about Many areas of concern in Mali need to be addressed by funding. Weare talking about £80 million over three years, this international action, including food security, health which is indeed funded by the conflict, stability and and child protection. This conflict has led to displacement security fund. It will matter enormously to people deploying and death, and most disturbing are the UN reports that on this operation to see the tone of these exchanges. rape is being used as a weapon of war, with both women Our intention is to keep the House informed as best as and young girls the target of these attacks. It is therefore we can. This is a dangerous mission, but our people are conspicuous that while the UK is sending personnel to well-trained and well-equipped. They are ready and they the area, which of course is most welcome, it is also cutting are up for it, and I wish them a good tour. aid by 30%. These two issues cannot be considered separate when we are looking at the humanitarian response. Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I join The Minister stated that the UK troops will support the Opposition and our Front-Bench team in wishing the Government’s development and diplomatic agenda our forces well and a very safe tour. The Minister speaks “as a force for good in the world”. about wanting to increase our profile in the Sahel. The Will he explain how the cuts to aid described could west has been without resolve in that area; this has been impact the UN mission in Mali? Will he detail whether a hidden conflict. I am pleased that we want to close any civilian support has been cut on the ground, including down this permissive environment, which he spoke about, to those working with victims of sexual violence? Given of extremism, criminality, human trafficking and regional the increase in terrorist activity and instability in the conflict spilling out beyond the Sahel. However, I hope region, what safeguards are being considered for the that that commitment is matched by a greater western personnel who are being deployed? At what point will resolve to tackle the underlying causes of those issues, our troops be withdrawn, and what are the success criteria because we will not solve the challenges there through for that to happen? military means alone. Finally, I would like to pay tribute, on behalf of those I must tell the Minister—I am pleased that the Defence on the SNP Benches, to all those serving in such missions, Secretary is in his place— that I am sorry to learn that especially all those personnel who will be away from their as we have in the Sahel taken a step forward with loved ones over the Christmas period. greater resolve, here we are taking a retrograde step with talk of reductions to our reserve forces and to their training. They are the very people who are the in-fill to James Heappey: On the official development assistance the regular forces that go out to these places; I have not point, rather a lot of MOD activity, which has huge been on an operational overseas tour where I did not humanitarian advantage, was not counted under the have reservists under my command as well. I say to the ODA definition. We are rather proud of the amount that Minister that I hope that as we step forward with greater we do that does not make it into the accounting against resolve on the international stage we will think more that budget. carefully about these cuts to our reserves. I thank the hon. Lady for raising the importance of human security as part of this mission. I had the James Heappey: I am delighted to say that there are a pleasure the other week of doing a roundtable with the number of reservists within the deployment to Mali. Countess of Wessex and the vice-chief of the defence Their skillset is well valued and they will do a great job. staff, using Mali as a case study for exactly how the UK The Secretary of State and other Ministry of Defence should lead in human security, and the role of the MOD Ministers have, like me, all served alongside our fantastic and our armed forces in that leadership. The hon. Lady reservists in various theatres over the course of our will be pleased to know that within the deployment to military service. Their value is undeniable and they are MINUSMA are specialist human security officers, who an integral part of the force. My right hon. Friend the will add immeasurably to the emotional intelligence of Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) is right the deployment and a recognition of the needs of women to say that to some degree this is a hidden conflict, and other minorities in the community, so that human although with the drawdown of troops in Afghanistan security can be integral to the UK’s effort within and Iraq we now have the largest western troop deployment MINUSMA. on earth in the Sahel. However, it is incomplete, no The hon. Lady asks about the term of the mission matter what the size of the force, unless a political and and the success criteria. This is very different from Iraq diplomatic effort goes around that response. He is right and Afghanistan, where the circumstances for our to encourage, not just here in our diplomatic and aid withdrawal were principally around political intent in effort, but within the UN and across all the troop- London. We have signed up for a three-year commitment contributing nations, the political effort to match the to the UN MINUSMA mission. We have said that we military one. will review that commitment after 18 months to check 879 UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces 9 DECEMBER 2020 UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces 880 Deployment Deployment [James Heappey] armed forces, in words and in actions, they have been able to deliver an immeasurable impact on the lives of that we still think it is the right contribution for us to be those most in need of security and stability across the making. It is a time-limited commitment to the UN and world? we leave at the end of it, just as we did very successfully from South Sudan earlier in the year. James Heappey: Yes, I do. This is in addition to Defence’s contribution to the life of the United Kingdom (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): this year, of which we are very proud. Within the next By way of a declaration, I am a reservist. I welcome the week or two, our armed forces will be actively involved Minister’sstatement. Terrorists and insurgents are exploiting in peacekeeping operations in Mali, in addition to all open borders in this region to smuggle weapons, arms that Defence is doing at home in response to covid, in and drugs. Do the British Government support the addition to all that the Royal Navy is doing to protect French initiative to increase regional co-ordination through the UK’s interests around the world, and what we are the G5 joint force to deploy 5,000 personnel from five doing in Afghanistan, and what we are doing in Iraq, neighbouring states? With France’s key role in intelligence and, and, and, and, and. Our armed forces are a fantastic in the Sahel region, what does the Minister make of the example of the very best of British and we in this point made by some that France should be included in Government are delighted to be supporting them in their the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing system? endeavours.

James Heappey: My hon. Friend’s last point may Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): May I require a statement entirely in its own right. France is too pay tribute to the troops involved in this deployment clearly an important partner in the international activity and others globally at this time? Reports from the in the Sahel. It is really important, however, to note that United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees that the French-led Barkhane mission is entirely separate 230 children were recruited by armed groups in Mali in from MINUSMA. The Secretary of State and I both the first half of 2020 alone, compared with 215 cases in participate in conferences with other NATO Defence the whole of 2019, are deeply concerning. What steps Ministers and Defence Ministers from across the Sahel, are the Government taking with international partners so we are aware of and support what France is doing to to help to protect vulnerable children who have been taken generate more mass to its Barkhane mission, but it is advantage of in this way and to ensure the sustainability really important to note that that is separate from what that the Minister referred to in his statement? we are doing with MINUSMA. James Heappey: The hon. Lady makes a very important Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): I thank the point. The recruitment of children to the conflict is Minister for providing such a comprehensive statement something we abhor. I refer her to the answer that I gave this afternoon, so soon on the back of last week’s to the SNP spokesman on our enthusiasm for growing written ministerial statement. That is deeply welcome, our human security capability. Those human security and I want to place on the record our support for our officers are within the force to deliver exactly this sort of service personnel as they deploy. The Minister will thing—to recognise the needs of women, protect vulnerable know through correspondence from the Defence Committee children and ensure that the needs of the whole community and media reports that there are some concerns about are considered as we go through peacekeeping missions the availability of the appropriate equipment for the such as this. circumstances, so may I ask him to place it on the record publicly this afternoon that those who are prepared to put themselves in harm’s way will have adequate and Mr (South West Hertfordshire) (Con): appropriate protection for the situation in which they I too welcome the statement. At heart, all UK Defence will find themselves? operations are focused on building stability and security worldwide, from which all nations and people are able James Heappey: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his to benefit. Can my hon. Friend assure me and the House question. The environment in Mali requires a balance that, thanks to the record spending review, we will between ballistic protection against the threat of improvised be able to continue to contribute to global safety and explosive devices, and an environmental challenge where prosperity in the years to come? heavy rain and mud can easily lead to heavy vehicles getting bogged in. It is our assessment that Foxhound, James Heappey: I can, and what we aim to do, through Ridgeback, Coyote and Jackal—all of which were a more forward presence of our armed forces around purchased for the Afghanistan deployment, have proved the world, is find ourselves in a position whereby we can themselves against a far more severe IED threat than more easily respond to the needs of different regions the one in Mali, and have been upgraded in the decades where there are UK interests or where the UK simply since—achieve that balance between the ballistic protection needs to be a force for good, alongside friends and allies required against an IED threat such as this and the in the international community. This integrated review environmental challenge of such weather as is likely to gets after exactly the problem my hon. Friend describes, be experienced in Mali. and we are excited about what the opportunities in the IR mean for us to do the right thing in different parts of Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con): This is the latest the world in future. in a long line of peacekeeping and humanitarian missions undertaken by our armed forces with the support of Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and this Conservative Government. Does my hon. Friend Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): Mali is one of the world’s agree that, thanks to this Government’s support of our poorest countries, but it seems to be the vast network of 881 UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces 9 DECEMBER 2020 UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces 882 Deployment Deployment small gold mines that is attracting jihadist and other terrorist James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): It is not, of course, organisations there. What can be done as part of this for MPs to dig into the tactical weeds of military international effort to try to get those gold mines put deployments, but given the vast lines of communication to use in getting the country out of poverty, rather than in Mali can the Minister please assure the House that funding terrorism? British forces will be operating with sufficient mass, force protection and an effective reserve to deal with a James Heappey: If I am honest, the hon. Gentleman potent insurgency? raises a point that I have not come across in all the briefings I had before the deployment. I will of course JamesHeappey:Therespeakethavoiceof greatexperience. look into that dimension, but I am not sure that those My hon. Friend’s caution is well noted. He will be terrorist groups are motivated simply by any pecuniary reassured to know that, as I said in my statement, we advantage arising from securing the mines that he mentions. will start with the first rotation focusing on understanding These people are ideologically opposed to any sort of the ground immediately around Gao. As we develop religious freedom or social freedom, and I fear that that understanding, grow in confidence and develop our their determination to disrupt and to be violent would in-country ability to support ourselves at greater range, endure irrespective of what natural assets lay beneath then we will expand the mission as the UN mission the earth, but I will of course go and inform myself on commander requires. that point. LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): The Minister says I very much welcome this deployment, as I think everyone that this force of 300 will form a specialist reconnaissance here does. In the ’90s, Britain was one of the largest capability. To do that, the troops will have to speak to troop-deploying nations for UN peacekeeping forces the local people. Some 5% to 10% of the local people and now we are not. This is 5% or thereabouts of what speak the official language, which is French, and the rest Bangladesh, the largest troop-deploying nation and one do not. When I took 900 soldiers to Bosnia, I required of the poorest countries in the world, contributes. While 20 interpreters—minimum. I suspect we will need at least the money the Government have agreed to invest in our seven for this force. May I ask my hon. Friend whether armed forces is welcome, it does not include an increase there is an ability to recruit interpreters locally, and in personnel and it does not include an increase in whether interpreters in both French and local languages— reservists—in fact, the opposite. Will the Minister look there are quite a few of them—have been thought about? at changing some of that, and will he consider the fact I am sure the answer is yes. that troops might help to stop violence but they do not bring peace? Development does, so what are the Government doing to make sure development money James Heappey: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. pours into this country so that our troops can leave it He is absolutely right: interpreters are an essential part stable? of any population-centric military mission. There are French-speaking personnel within the force itself and James Heappey: On the last point first, I do not think we will be recruiting local interpreters to join the force. that anybody in uniform within the Ministry of Defence Crucially, they will not just be male interpreters who or even MOD Ministers would pretend that a military stand on the shoulder of the male platoon commander solution uniquely is the answer to any of the world’s but female interpreters who work alongside human problems. Of course, the military sets the conditions security officers, so that we are able to engage with all within which prosperity and a political process can parts of the community in the course of our mission. succeed. The hon. Gentleman also makes the excellent point that the campaigns of the past few years in the Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): We all Balkans, Iran and Afghanistan have consumed UK send our best wishes to our troops on this mission. The military effort to the detriment of our contribution to Sahel is a complicated place. It has a lot of long-term peacekeeping missions. One of the great opportunities problems in terms of both security and long-term afforded by the end of major combat deployments to development and governance.I appreciate that the Minister both Iraq and Afghanistan is that we now have the mass says this is a three-year deployment, but is he confident available to support very worthwhile missions like this that the UN has criteria and definitions of success in one in Mali. which we can be confident, and an exit strategy for the mission? Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con) [V]: In order to ensure that this peacekeeping mission does not become James Heappey: The Algeria accords still set the permanent, may I ask my hon. Friend what steps he is conditions for the both the political and military response taking in conjunction with our partners in the UN to of the United Nations. I do not think anybody involved support the Government and armed forces in Mali with in the UN political mission in Bamako would dispute investment, equipment and training so that they can that the coup and political instability in Mali over a tackle the jihadist threat in the longer term? number of years have made the political mission very challenging, but that does not affect, necessarily, the James Heappey: It is not part of the UN MINUSMA duration of this military commitment. The way that explicitly to be developing the capability of the Malian UN peacekeeping missions work is that you sign up to armed forces, but that clearly has to be a part of do your turn, and we have done so. That notwithstanding, delivering a lasting peace in Mali, and the political we of course want to see greater success from the mission does, of course, have within it security sector political mission and an enduring political stability in reform. I have said that our exit from Mali is time-limited, Bamako, so that the UN mission can succeed. based on the three-year commitment, but what we hope 883 UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces 9 DECEMBER 2020 884 Deployment [James Heappey] Points of Order to do as part of the MOD’s wider effort in west Africa is to develop during that time the capability of other west 2.49 pm African states, so that they are better able to replace us Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): On a point of in three years’ time as the troop-contributing nations in order, Madam Deputy Speaker. My point of order Mali. We think that that is the right way both to deliver naturally draws on comments that the Minister for the success within the mission itself and to ensure that the Armed Forces made in his statement to highlight the mission continues to succeed in our absence, after we importance of reservists. Over the past several months, have gone. I have been very encouraged by the strength of feeling in the Chair that Parliament has primacy, and that it is Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP) important that when announcements are made, we hear [V]: I would like to extend my wishes for a successful them first and have the opportunity to probe and challenge deployment to everyone involved in what is seen as the them. In the Select Committee on Defence yesterday, UN’s most dangerous peacekeeping mission. According we spent two hours interrogating the Ministry of Defence’s to the UN, about 12.9 million people are affected by the accounts, but no mention was made of the announcement crisis in Mali, with 6.8 million in need of humanitarian that appeared in today that 2,700 assistance. Does the Minister agree that the situation Royal Navy reservists would be stood down for four highlights a strategic weakness inherent in the UK’s months, in order to penny-pinch. That decision has cutting international aid budgets? been described as “short-sighted”, and it is ill-judged. Could you advise me, Madam Deputy Speaker—I am James Heappey: No, I am not sure that I do. I think it grateful that the Secretary of State for Defence has highlights the success of being a part of a successful remained in the Chamber—how parliamentarians who UN mission that is resourced in terms of its ability to believe in the reservists and believe that we need to make political progress, and that it is adequately resourced explore the matter further can best get an appropriate to make military progress. I am confident that the opportunity to do so? military part of MINUSMA is well resourced, and the UK will play an important part within it. As I said in Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con) rose— response to a number of hon. Members’ questions about the political mission, we just need the politics in Mali to stabilise so that the UN political mission can gain Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. traction too. I will take the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) first and then come to Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): It therighthon.MemberforBournemouthEast(MrEllwood). is absolutely right that the UK should play its part in I thank the hon. Member for Belfast East for his this, but MINUSMA is the most costly of the UN’s point of order and for giving me notice that he intended peacekeeping missions, it is the most dangerous, and it to raise it. I will repeat what Mr Speaker has said many is arguably one of the least successful. Furthermore, times from the Chair: if an announcement is to be made Mali can hardly be said to be a country of primary by a Department or a Minister, it must be made first in interest to the United Kingdom. Can the Minister this Chamber. Any announcement must be made to assure me that our involvement will be largely technical Parliament. If there was an article in The Daily Telegraph and logistical in nature, that it will be modest, rather or any other medium, I cannot comment on its veracity; like our engagement with Operation Barkhane, and that that is not a matter for the Chair. However, it most we will not be subject to mission creep? certainly is a matter for the Chair if an announcement has indeed been made by other means than to this House James Heappey: I can reassure my right hon. Friend and in this Chamber. that there will be no mission creep. This is a UN mission and our role is confined to that. I cannot, however, tell The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Ben Wallace): him that it is limited to logistical and technical involvement. I think that there has been a slight element of confusion, This specialist reconnaissance force has been committed Madam Deputy Speaker. The management of the three to MINUSMA precisely to provide an ability to understand services—the Navy, the Army and the Air Force—is where the threat is and to deliver a population-centric obviously a matter for the chiefs of staff. As they peacekeeping mission. This is time-limited and necessary. manage their services, throughout the year they make I accept that there is no obvious UK interest in Mali thousands of decisions about activity, deployments, itself, but there is a great deal to be said for being there: training and so on. This is not a matter on which a first, because the humanitarian situation requires it; single statement would have been made by anyGovernment. and, secondly, because the Sahel is a huge space on I think the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) Europe’s southern flank in which violence is flourishing, was referring to a newspaper article, but there are and it is in the interests neither of countries in Europe hundreds of announcements on a weekly basis. I think that nor of countries in coastal west Africa, where the UK that is where the point that he refers to comes from. has more obvious interests, that we do not work against the violence in the Sahel, but see it exported to places Madam Deputy Speaker: I am grateful to the Secretary where the UK has more obvious interests. of State for responding to the point of order. I take it Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, from what he says that he is undertaking that if any 4 June). notable announcement is to be made by him or his Department, it will be made first in this Chamber and to this House. 885 Points of Order 9 DECEMBER 2020 Points of Order 886

Mr Wallace indicated assent. Minister to respond to letters and questions from Members of this House. I know that, as constituency MPs, we are Madam Deputy Speaker: I am grateful for the Secretary all finding it very difficult to get responses to our of State’s assent. inquiries on behalf of our constituents within a reasonable time. It is noted that the Home Office is possibly not Mr Ellwood: Further to that point of order, Madam giving the Home Secretary and her Ministers the support Deputy Speaker. I am grateful to you for allowing a that they need at a time such as this to answer our little latitude on this important issue. I am also grateful inquiries on time. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for for the Secretary of State’s clarification, because there raising this point of order and I merely repeat what are concerns that the size of our reserves will be reduced Mr Speaker has said many times, but I do hope that not and that, just as concerning, their training hours will only Ministers but those who are employed and trusted also be reduced at this critical time. It would be helpful to support Ministers would please pay attention to this if he came forward with more information and at least situation. quashed the stories and rumours that are going around, because they do damage to the reputation and morale Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): On a point of order, of those in the armed forces. Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like some guidance on the question of the content of the Taxation (Post- Madam Deputy Speaker: I allowed the Chairman of transition Period) Bill, which we are about to discuss, the Defence Committee his moment, but he knows and relating to the question of taxation and, on the basis of we all know that it is not a point of order. He has made a statement made yesterday by the Chancellor of the his point to the Secretary of State and I am sure that Duchy of Lancaster, the removal of the clauses—the there will be other opportunities to explore the matter “notwithstanding” clauses—that would otherwise have further. appeared. They remain part of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, from which they have not been Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): removed. I am putting down amendments to reinsert Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. the “notwithstanding” clauses on Report, and I would I am very grateful for your indulgence, as I speak as one be grateful if, first, you could note that, Madam Deputy of the reservists in question. I just want to point out Speaker, and, secondly, you could provide some guidance. that it is deeply demoralising for members of the armed forces if they are not told about this in advance but Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I learn about it from the pages of The Daily Telegraph, thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. Is it excellent though The Daily Telegraph is. Can I seek your about the timing by which he can submit amendments advice on whether you feel that that is appropriate? for Report? Obviously,the amendments for the Committee stage are already submitted and we will very soon be Madam Deputy Speaker: No, the right hon. Gentleman debating them. We will come to Report tomorrow. Is he cannot seek my advice, because it is not my business to asking me by what time he can submit amendments for decide whether it is appropriate. However, given his tomorrow? position in this House I have allowed him to make his point, and I believe that it has been heard and paid Sir William Cash: I am most grateful to you for the attention to by the Secretary of State and the Minister. way you put that, Madam Deputy Speaker. First, I want to be clear that I am going to do it, and, secondly, Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): On a point of order, I would like to know by what time I need to put my Madam Deputy Speaker. I seek your helpful advice amendments down. With all this virtual stuff, it is quite on getting a response from the Home Secretary to difficult to know. 17 constituents for whom I have made representations. I have been chasing and chasing for a reply. Some of Madam Deputy Speaker: It is indeed difficult to know. these constituents have been waiting for years, most for I decided yesterday to have the deadline today at 12 o’clock. many months, and all have life-changing issues that I am not quite certain exactly at this moment what the affect their whole family. Surely it is the duty of the deadline will be for tomorrow, but I have noted what the Home Secretary to respond to letters from Members of hon. Gentleman has said. I am asking the Clerk to note Parliament? and to pass on to the appropriate offices that he wishes to submit amendments. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Once There was to be another point of order, but the hon. again, I will repeat from the Chair what Mr Speaker has Gentleman concerned has left the Chamber. said on many occasions: it is indeed the duty of every 887 9 DECEMBER 2020 Sexual Exploitation 888

Sexual Exploitation though, is where those profits come from. The answer is sex buyers. Only 3.6% of men in the UK have paid for Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order sex in the past five years, but this demand drives the No. 23) supply of vulnerable women into brothels in Britain. It is these men who commit the thousands upon thousands 2.58 pm of rapes and sexual assaults perpetrated against victims Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) of trafficking every year in this country. (Lab): I beg to move, Here is what one sex buyer wrote on a website dedicated That leave be given to bring in a Bill to criminalise paying for to men’s reviews of women they have paid for sex: sex; to decriminalise selling sex; to create offences relating to “Very pretty and young girl…If you want to try a fresh, young enabling or profiting from another person’s sexual exploitation; (says she is 18) and pretty girl is ok, but maybe as she just started to make associated provision about sexual exploitation online; to to work, is quite passive, scarcely kiss without tongue, doesn’t make provision for support services for victims of sexual exploitation; want to be kissed on the neck or ears, can’t do a decent blowjob and for connected purposes. and really rides badly on you…she really can’t speak a word of This is a Bill to bust the business model of sex English (is Romanian) so even [girlfriend experience] is a zero.” trafficking. Today, the UK is a high-value, low-risk He paid £70 to do that. destination for sex traffickers. Why? Because our law Here is another reviewer: fails on two critical fronts: first, it fails to discourage the “This is a classic case of ‘the pretty ones don’t have to work very thing that drives trafficking for sexual exploitation— hard’…She’s Polish, and her English is not good…I was reminded demand—and secondly, it allows ruthless individuals to of the Smiths song ‘Girlfriend in a Coma’...All the while she facilitate and profit from sexual exploitation. What seemed completely disinterested and mechanical...I finally decided does this mean in practice? It means that the minority to fuck her…All the while, she kept her face turned to one side.” of men in England and Wales who pay for sex do so That man paid £100 to do that to her. with impunity, fuelling a brutal sex trafficking trade Any would-be trafficker who wants to get their hands and causing untold harm to victims. It also means that on sex buyers’ money receives a very special helping profit-making pimping websites operate free from criminal hand in the United Kingdom: from pimping websites, sanction, helping sex traffickers to quickly and easily where they can advertise victims to sex buyers completely advertise their victims and reaping enormous profits legally. The advertiser simply fills out an online form from doing so. and pays to publish the advert. Meanwhile, sex buyers Right now there is a sexual-exploitation scandal playing browse the website for free. Adverts show how much she out in towns and cities across the UK. An inquiry by will cost, what sex acts he can select, where she is based the predecessor of the all-party parliamentary group on and when she is available. The sex buyer, remaining commercial sexual exploitation, which I chair, found completely anonymous, simply calls the mobile number that the UK sex trade is dominated by organised crime, to place his order. with sex trafficking taking place on an industrial scale. A few highly lucrative pimping websites dominate Vulnerable women are moved around networks of brothels this online market, centralising and concentrating the and hotel rooms to be raped and abused by men who UK customer base for traffickers. It makes the whole pay for sex. The trauma and suffering inflicted on victims business of sex trafficking easier, quicker and more of this abhorrent trade is truly horrific. efficient. One police force reported to the APPG that a One woman who was trafficked by an organised trafficker it caught had spent £25,000 advertising his crime group and abused by men in the UK recalls: victims on a pimping website, but the police were not “To begin with [the offenders] were my friends but, as soon as alerted. Instead, the man was given his own account we came to England, they started to physically abuse me. He beat manager. … me many times because I was not earning him enough money Even To stop women being raped and abused for profit, we though the clients did not physically abuse me I felt abused because I was forced to have sex with them even when I did not must dismantle the business model of this sex trafficking want to do so. Sometimes that was painful. After a while, I felt trade. That will require two key measures: first, preventing disgusted by what I was doing and I wanted to stop but [he] the demand driving sex trafficking by criminalising wanted more money and he forced me to continue. I was scared paying for sex; and secondly, stopping website companies because he kept threatening me that he was going to hurt my and other third parties aiding and profiting from this mother.” appalling crime by making it a criminal offence to So, who are the women who are being subject to this enable or profit from the prostitution of another person. horrific abuse? Research by the APPG shows that it is We must also stop the appalling practice of victims of predominantly vulnerable, non-UK-national women who sexual exploitation being prosecuted for soliciting. That are being abused in brothels across Britain, and a significant offence should be removed from the statute books. proportion of them come from one particular country: Instead,weshouldestablishawell-resourced,comprehensive Romania. Over a period of two years, Leicestershire network of support and exiting services for people who police visited 156 brothels, encountering 421 women, of have been or are sexually exploited. Those measures whom 86% were from Romania. Northumbria police would shift the burden of criminality from women and visited 81 brothels over two years, and of the 259 women place it where it belongs: on those who perpetrate and they encountered in those brothels, 75% were Romanian. profit from this abuse. What motivates the traffickers and pimps? The answer This demand reduction approach is already in place is simple: money. Trafficking for sexual exploitation is in countries including France, Sweden, Ireland, Northern the most profitable form of modern slavery. Take, for Ireland, Israel, Iceland and Norway, and it works. An example, a British man who was convicted in 2017 of official evaluation of Sweden’s Sex Purchase Act reported: trafficking and sexually exploiting vulnerable women. “it is clear that the ban on the purchase of sexual services acts as a He made £1.6 million a year from his brothels. Sex barrier to human traffickers and procurers who are considering trafficking is profit-driven. The crucial question to ask, establishing themselves in Sweden.” 889 Sexual Exploitation 9 DECEMBER 2020 Sexual Exploitation 890

As Dr Monica O’Connor of the Sexual Exploitation that murders of sex workers increased significantly. Research Programme states, Between September 2019 and February 2020, at least “simply allowing the prostitution industry to grow, increases the nine sex workers were murdered, according to the French flow of trafficked people to that jurisdiction; conversely, addressing newspaper, Libération. When all clients are frightened demand and reducing the size of the market for prostitution-related of being arrested, and therefore insist that meetings activities is an effective anti-trafficking measure.” happen in darker corners where the dangers for women That is whythe United Nations Palermo protocol stipulates: are greater, sex workers cannot refuse those risks. They “States Parties shall adopt or strengthen legislative or other can no longer distinguish between clients who are a measures…to discourage the demand that fosters all forms of threat and those who are not. exploitation of persons, especially women and children, that leads I will give voice to some women who are involved in to trafficking.” sex work. Jenny from Manchester said, “The harms to There are some who do not want to reduce demand me come from the laws that they have. Having a record for sexual exploitation, and myths and misinformation is a harm. There’s a major difficulty for women who are spread about efforts to achieve it, so let me be want to exit prostitution. The services don’t address it. absolutely clear: sexual exploitation is not a solution to They can come up with the courses for you to go on, but poverty. Our continued tolerance of this harmful trade they cannot take away the charges. You can’t get housing puts vulnerable women and girls at an ongoing risk from and there are jobs that aren’t available because of what traffickersandpimpswhoseektoprofitfromit.Suggestions you’ve done. Women who have sex work convictions that criminalising paying for sex will only serve to drive often find it almost impossible to leave.” We must sexualexploitationundergroundfundamentallymisunderstand address that, because it limits life chances and makes the nature of this trade. Sex buyers need to locate women women more vulnerable to the coercion of pimps and to sexually exploit, and if sex buyers can find the women, traffickers. so can the police and support services. As an analysis Reports on the implementation of the Nordic model published by the European Commission points out, have found that it has caused sex workers to be less “Sex markets are reliant, by definition, on buyers finding likely to refuse risky clients as income has fallen. They spaces and places where it is possible to pay for sex.” are also less likely to report violence to the police. In The absolute necessity of deterring demand is why, at France, 70% of sex workers said that relationships with a recent international summit organised by UK Feminista the police had become worse or were unchanged, despite to confront the rampant sexual exploitation of Romanian the Nordic model reforms decriminalising some aspects women by men in the UK, the president of the Romanian of their work. The Nordic model even made 38% of sex Women’s Lobby, Laura Albu, said: workers less likely to use condoms, because their power “The solution is simple: end demand in the UK. The UK can to refuse clients was reduced, which made it harder to end demand and prosecute buyers of sex and close this so-called insist on safe sex only. That is why criminalisation is market.” opposed by the World Health Organisation, STOPAIDS We must heed her call. We have the power to bust the and the Royal College of Nursing. business model of sex trafficking. That is what my Bill My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull would do, and the Government would do well to adopt it. North and others want to give women who are trapped in the sex trade a way out, and I share that goal. The 3.8 pm Nordic model in France included an exit programme. Two years on, researchers found that only 39% of sex Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): It is an absolute workers were even aware of it, and of those, only a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for quarter had any intention of applying. I do not believe Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) that any individual programme will give most women a because, as Members will know, she is indeed a close genuine alternative, because their circumstances are friend. I respect her and value her enormously, and it is complex. Ultimately, as we know, it is poverty, inequality only because our friendship is so strong that I feel able and the legacy of unjust laws that trap women in the to stand here and speak against some aspects of her situations we have been raising today, force them to do proposed Bill. I hope that, by doing so, we will begin a work that they do not want to do, and expose them to debate that informs rather than confuses and in which the risks of abuse, violence and exploitation. there are no binary sides, but just an honest and desperate The truth is, I believe, that sex work will be around attempt to talk about and try to resolve something that for as long as there is poverty and inequality—and is still difficult in our society today. frankly,poverty and inequality are rife in our communities. I hope I do not need to spell out that we all oppose Last year, before covid hit our communities, 2.4 million trafficking and exploitation. It is real, it is utterly horrifying, people were destitute in the UK, including more than and it is rightly illegal. We absolutely need laws that half a million children. That is a rise of 54% in just two target exploitation and abuse, and we need them to be years since 2017. Those numbers will include many sex better enforced. The part of my hon. Friend’s Bill that I workers and their children. cannot support involves putting into the law of England There will also be sex workers who stay out of destitution and Wales what is called the Nordic model. The Nordic only because of the income that their work brings in. model is not about tackling trafficking or exploitation Louise, who works in the sex trade in Doncaster, said, directly. It criminalises the buying of sex, and it can also “The police don’t protect us, and the biggest problem I criminalise many of the means by which sex workers face is the laws. Some women have been dragged under market their work. That is counterproductive and it will the control of pimps, but criminalising everyone doesn’t put women at greater risk. help that. We are boxed in by poverty. Criminalising In France, after the model was introduced in 2016, clients would take away our income when people around 42% of sex workers said that they had become more the country are living on the edge and women are expected exposed to violence. Tragically, there is some evidence to fill the gap.” 891 Sexual Exploitation 9 DECEMBER 2020 Sexual Exploitation 892

[Ms Lyn Brown] Question put and agreed to. Ordered, If the law prevents sex workers from finding clients That Dame Diana Johnson, Ms Harriet Harman, online, what happens then? My hon. Friend has quoted Sarah Champion, Fiona Bruce, Carolyn Harris, Dame despicable misogynistic comments about women posted Margaret Hodge, Mrs , Rosie Duffield, online. None of us likes that. The comments create a Stella Creasy, Mr Virendra Sharma, Gavin Robinson society in which women are objectified, but shutting and Derek Thomas present the Bill. down the websites will push them underground, moving them to encrypted message apps or sites on the dark Dame Diana Johnson accordingly presented the Bill. web instead, making it harder for sex workers to have a Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on discussion with clients at a safe distance before agreeing Friday 29 January 2021, and to be printed (Bill 228). to meet, and harder for sex worker groups such as National Ugly Mugs to monitor what clients are doing. Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): On a point of These changes could unintentionally make it harder for order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wonder whether you women to identify the men who are a threat to them and have heard from the Secretary of State for International to report clients who are violent and abusive. Trade, who I believe is in Singapore at the moment, I think we have to create policies so that women have about whether she intends to come to the House and the power to create the lives they want. In New Zealand, make a statement on the UK’s decision to opt out of an emphasis has been put on reducing harm and ensuring tariffs imposed by the World Trade Organisation on the that sex workers have access to their rights and to US. The article appeared in the Financial Times this justice. These reforms enable sex workers to work together morning rather than there being a statement to this without fear of prosecution and thereby in greater House. This sends a terrible message to Airbus and the safety. Coercion of people into sex work or to provide a steel industry in north Wales, which have already been share of the money received is, of course, illegal in New very hard hit by the covid crisis, and it undermines our Zealand, and because sex work is treated as a normal relationship with our European partners. This Prime form of work and taxed, all normal laws apply. In my Minister promised to stand up for British jobs. He view, the evidence from New Zealand is positive, with clearly did not mean it. This decision shows terrible trust in the police improved, increased reporting of weakness and the Government need to come to this offences, better safety and health for sex workers, and, House and explain themselves. most importantly, an increased ability for sex workers to refuse clients. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I thank I am not here today to recommend any particular the right hon. Gentleman for his point of order. Of changes to the law, although I am open to considering course, what Ministers say, wherever they say it, is not a them. Whatever happens, I think we can agree that we matter for the Chair. But what is a matter for the Chair, need much stronger enforcement against trafficking, as Mr Speaker has said many times, and I repeat now, is coercion, grooming, violence and harassment. We agree that if any Government Minister has an announcement that women deserve protection, and we need to eliminate to make that is of any importance whatsoever, it should the barriers that prevent women from leaving sex work. not be made in the pages of newspapers; it should be That includes convictions for sex work offences, which made and must be made first here, in this Chamber, to can be an anvil around necks. I do not think that the this House. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I Nordic model is the right one, but I do think that a am quite sure that if the Secretary of State whom he debate about how we deal with sex work and workers mentioned does have an announcement to make, she needs to begin now in this place, in good faith and will come here and make it in the appropriate manner. between friends. 893 9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 894 Bill: Business of the House Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill: (7) If two or more Questions would fall to be put under paragraph (5)(d) on successive amendments moved or Motions Business of the House made by a Minister of the Crown, the Chair or Speaker shall Motion made, and Question put, instead put a single Question in relation to those amendments or Motions. That the following provisions shall apply to the proceedings on the Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill: (8) If two or more Questions would fall to be put under paragraph (5)(e) in relation to successive provisions of the Bill, Timetable the Chair shall instead put a single Question in relation to those provisions, except that the Question shall be put separately on (1) (a) Proceedings on Second Reading, in Committee of the any Clause of or Schedule to the Bill which a Minister of the whole House, on Consideration and on Third Reading shall be Crown has signified an intention to leave out. taken in two days in accordance with this Order. (b) Proceedings on Second Reading shall be taken at Miscellaneous today’s sitting and shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion two hours (9) Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee) shall not after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion apply in relation to any proceedings to which this Order applies. for this Order. (10) (a) No Motion shall be made, except by a Minister of the (c) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House shall Crown, to alter the order in which any proceedings on the Bill are also be taken at today’s sitting and shall (so far as not taken, to recommit the Bill or to vary or supplement the provisions previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at of this Order. the moment of interruption. (b) No notice shall be required of such a Motion. (d) Proceedings on Consideration shall be taken on the (c) Such a Motion may be considered forthwith without second day and shall (so far as not previously concluded) any Question being put; and any proceedings interrupted be brought to a conclusion two hours after their for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly. commencement. (d) The Question on such a Motion shall be put forthwith; (e) Proceedings on Third Reading shall also be taken on the and any proceedings suspended under sub-paragraph second day and shall (so far as not previously concluded) (c) shall thereupon be resumed. be brought to a conclusion three hours after the (e) Standing Order No. 15(1) (Exempted business) shall commencement of proceedings on Consideration. apply to proceedings on such a Motion. (f) This paragraph shall have effect notwithstanding the (11) (a) No dilatory Motion shall be made in relation to practice of the House as to the intervals between proceedings to which this Order applies except by a Minister of stages of a Bill brought in upon Ways and Means the Crown. Resolutions. (b) The Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith. (12) No debate shall be held in accordance with Standing Timing of proceedings and Questions to be put Order No. 24 (Emergency debates) at today’s sitting after this (2) When the Bill has been read a second time, it shall, despite Order has been agreed or at the day’s sitting at which proceedings Standing Order No. 63 (Committal of bills not subject to a on Consideration are set down to be taken as an order of the day. programme order), stand committed to a Committee of the (13) Proceedings to which this Order applies shall not be whole House without any Question being put. interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of (3) (a) On the conclusion of proceedings in Committee of the the House. whole House, the Chair shall report the Bill to the House without (14) No private business may be considered at today’s sitting putting any Question. after this Order has been agreed or at the day’s sitting at which (b) If the Bill is not amended in Committee of the whole proceedings on Consideration are set down to be taken as an House, the Bill shall nonetheless be proceeded with as order of the day.—(.) if it had been reported to the House with amendments. (4) Notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 3.20 pm 52(1)(b) (Money resolutions and ways and means resolutions in Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): connection with bills), on the day on which proceedings on I want to make a few comments about this business of Consideration are set down to be taken as an order of the day, the House motion, because I think it is indicative of the Question on any motion made for a financial resolution relating to the Bill shall be put forthwith and may be decided at where we have got to. any hour, though opposed. After four years, we have a Bill on the taxation (5) For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a arrangements after Brexit that is to be debated in less conclusion in accordance with paragraph (1), the Chair or than four hours. Not only that, but it is a Bill of over Speaker shall forthwith put the following Questions in the same 100 pages in length that was published less than 24 hours order as they would fall to be put if this Order did not apply: ago. The Minister may claim that the House has passed (a) any Question already proposed from the Chair; emergency legislation in a single day in the past, and of (b) any Question necessary to bring to a decision a Question course that is true: the House can do that in emergency so proposed; circumstances. But this deadline that we face at the end (c) the Question on any amendment, new Clause or new of the year is not new. It is not a surprise. It has been Schedule selected by the Chair or Speaker for known ever since the withdrawal agreement was reached. separate decision; The Government have said repeatedly over the past year (d) the Question on any amendment moved or Motion that this was an immovable deadline. So why is it, just made by a Minister of the Crown; three weeks before that deadline, that the Government are only publishing these arrangements and this timetable (e) any other Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded; and shall not put any other now? questions, other than the question on any motion Businesses in Northern Ireland, and those that do a described in paragraph (10)(a) of this Order. lot of trade with Northern Ireland, could have been (6) On a Motion made for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the given some idea of what was coming long before now, Chair or Speaker shall put only the Question that the Clause or but as it stands, not even the Bill before us gives them Schedule be added to the Bill. certainty, as so much of it has to be followed up with 895 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) 896 Bill: Business of the House Bill: Business of the House [Mr Pat McFadden] This is not just about us here in this House—it also leaves businesses affected, with little or no time to absorb further regulations. The truth is that there was no need and understand what is being planned. There have been for this last-minute legislative scramble. The real reason many comments on the state of things in recent days, we are in this position—the reason why this business but perhaps the most pithy has come from the chief motion is before us and gives the House so little time—is executive of the Road Haulage Association, who said that the Government thought that it was a good negotiating this week, commenting on the border arrangements: tactic to breach the agreement, or to threaten to breach “Frankly, it’s just a mess.” the agreement, that they reached with the EU last year. The bigger point here is that the reason why we are in They threatened to do that in this Bill as well as in the this position is that the Government’s approach to all of United Kingdom Internal Market Bill. As so often, it this has relegated concerns about business, prosperity was a threat posing as strength that ended up doing more and people’s livelihoods to a distant second place. This harm to us than to anyone else. That is why this Bill was motion and the approach behind it are not only bad for so late, and that is why the time to debate it is so short. the legislative process, but bad for the country too. The Government, immediately before they embark on a new future based on trade deals, chose to advertise 3.25 pm around the world that they were willing to break the last one that they signed. Boasting about your willingness to The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): go back on your word is not an illustration of strength; I would simply say this in response to the right hon. rather, it is a graphic portrayal of what Brexit has done Gentleman: the Government have been moving at great to the Conservative party. speed, and much of the regulation is already in the public domain, together with an enormous amount of Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): Will the right hon. further communications and support systems. The Gentleman give way? Government are putting in front of the House today a Bill that encodes the Northern Ireland protocol and a Mr McFadden: I am going to continue, because I do Command Paper that has been in the public domain for not have long to go. many months, and if the right hon. Gentleman wished As the House has been reminded, it was Mrs Thatcher to have more scrutiny, he perhaps might have considered who said: not having a debate on this motion. “Britain does not break treaties. It would be bad for Britain, bad for our relations with the rest of the world and bad for any Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I am future treaty on trade”. aware that some Members would like to make points on The threat to do so has left us with the timetable for this this, but I am afraid that it is not in order for them to do Bill. That inevitably means that scrutiny of today’s so, because under current rules I have to stick to the measures will be severely truncated and parts of it will speaking list. Just as a matter of fact, interventions go through without being properly examined. What we would have been fine, but not speeches. have before us is the appearance of scrutiny, not the Question put and agreed to. reality—Potemkin scrutiny. That is what a timetable like this gives us. 897 9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 898

Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill to whether or not there will be anything more than staff, except to say that excise processes in Northern Ireland [Relevant documents: First Report of the Northern will be carried out by Her Majesty’sRevenue and Customs. Ireland Affairs Committee, Unfettered Access: Customs Arrangements in Northern Ireland after Brexit, HC 161, and the Government response, HC 783; Oral evidence Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): taken before the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on The Minister was asked by his right hon. Friend the 16 and 23 September and 2 December 2020, on Brexit Member for Wokingham () whether the and the Northern Ireland Protocol, HC 767.] ECJ would be the ultimate arbiter, and the Minister replied that it would be the judicial authority. Is that the Second Reading same thing? 3.27 pm Jesse Norman: Yes, I was simply paraphrasing the The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): point that my right hon. Friend made. I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. Under the terms of the protocol, we need to treat It is a delight to speak under your chairmanship, goods at risk of such onward movement into the EU Madam Deputy Speaker. differently from those groups that are not at risk. On In three weeks’ time, the transition period will end the specific details of what will be defined as at risk or and this country will take its place as a fully sovereign not at risk, the House will be aware of the EU-UK joint trading nation once more. It is a very important moment agreement made this week setting out that an agreement in our nation’s history, one that will undoubtedly provide has been reached in principle regarding the implementation us with great opportunity in the years ahead, but the of the Northern Ireland protocol. In accordance with Government are acutely aware that at this time they that statement, the draft texts will now be subject to also have a great responsibility to provide certainty to further consideration in both the EU and the UK. Once people and businesses and to preserve this nation’s that is complete, a joint committee will be convened to unity, and the fundamental purpose of this Bill is to adopt them formally. Further details will be set out in achieve those goals. It seeks to ensure that businesses in due course, and before the end of the year. every part of the UK can continue to trade smoothly after the end of the transition period, but its particular Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): In reply to my right focus is on businesses based in Northern Ireland or hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) those that work with Northern Ireland companies. and the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland The Government have always been clear that we must (Mr Carmichael), the question of jurisdiction was raised, deliver on our pledge to provide unfettered access for and perhaps it is best to use the right expression, rather Northern Ireland’s businesses to the rest of the UK than paraphrasing. The fact remains that EU officials internal market, and we have been equally unstinting in will be there for the purposes of enforcing the jurisdiction our determination to uphold our commitments to the of the European legal arrangements, which will be people of Northern Ireland under the Northern Ireland enforced subject to the European Court. In those protocol and to protect the progress made under the circumstances, will the Minister now accept that actually Belfast Good Friday agreement. This Bill will help us there is an infringement of sovereignty in that respect? support those commitments by providing legal certainty As the “notwithstanding” clauses are being taken out, for the customs, VAT and excise systems in Northern there is therefore a further complication, and if I may Ireland after the end of the transition period. say so respectfully, that is slightly in contradiction of his allegation that we would now take over as a sovereign, If I may, I will start with the customs elements of the fully independent power. Bill. The House will know that the UK is a single customs territory, with article 4 of the Northern Ireland protocol giving a clear legal commitment to this. However, Jesse Norman: I thank my hon. Friend for the question. the protocol also requires a new and unique set of He is right that it is expected that there will be EU arrangements to be put in place for goods moving from officials. The checks will be levied and done by HMRC Great Britain to Northern Ireland. Under these inspectors, and the system that we are putting in place arrangements, the only circumstance in which there should gives effect to the Northern Ireland protocol, which, as be charges on goods moving between Great Britain and he will recognise, already recognises the balance that is Northern Ireland is if those goods are destined for the being struck in Northern Ireland between its status EU single market or there is a clear and substantial risk under the Union customs code and its status within the that they may be. UK customs system. If I may proceed, the Bill will allow the Government John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I am grateful to to put in place decisions made by the Joint Committee the Minister for giving way in this Second Reading on goods that are not at risk of entering the EU, debate before we get to Committee. Will he confirm that ensuring that they do not have to pay the EU tariff. under the proposals in this last legislation the European However, if I may underline the point, this Bill does not Court of Justice will be the ultimate arbiter of excise itself seek to specify the classes or categories of goods and VAT arrangements within Northern Ireland, and or movements that are at risk or not at risk. Instead, that the European Union will be placing staff in our that will be set out by regulations that the Bill permits country to supervise this? us to make once legal texts have been formally adopted. The “at risk” or “not at risk” definitions will also Jesse Norman: VAT in Northern Ireland will be subject determine whether the UK or EU tariff applies when to the EU principal VAT directive, and for that purpose goods arrive in Northern Ireland from rest-of-the-world the ECJ will be the judicial body. I cannot comment as countries, again in line with the Northern Ireland protocol. 899 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 900

[Jesse Norman] beginning. There will be some goods that, over time, will be designated as non-qualifying goods for these purposes, In relation to the so-called “notwithstanding” clauses, and HMRC has well established practices for identifying, as part of yesterday’s EU-UK joint statement, the discussing and targeting those, as may be necessary, and Government have agreed not to introduce these provisions will be applying them to prevent avoidance and to keep into this Bill, and we have also committed to remove the the market honest. three “notwithstanding”clauses from the United Kingdom As I have said, the Bill will ensure that the UK Internal Market Bill. customs regime applies to goods moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britain if they do not qualify for Sir William Cash: Will my right hon. Friend give unfettered access. These anti-avoidance rules will prevent way? goods from being rerouted through Northern Ireland to avoid UK customs duties or associated obligations, and Jesse Norman: I suspect we are going to go around its measures will ensure that customs enforcement and this many times, but I am happy to give way again. penalties, along with review and appeal processes, continue to work alongside EU legislation in Northern Ireland Sir William Cash: Could I simply say to my right hon. and can be applied, where required, to movements of Friend that this does raise a question? I am not going to goods between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. go into it in an intervention on him, but I will in my The Bill also amends and modifies certain provisions speech. I believe that those provisions may well be in relation to VAT and excise for Northern Ireland. needed, because we do not know the outcome of the negotiations yet. I will leave it at that for the moment. We do not know, but we have been told that the clauses Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): In many of are going to come out. The question of whether they these debates over the past four years, the Government should have been put in is a separate question, which I have referred to “frictionless trade”between the mainland dealt with yesterday. and Northern Ireland. The Government now say that they want VAT accounting treatment for goods moving Jesse Norman: I am not quite sure where that was between Great Britain and Northern Ireland to remain heading, but we have the Bill in front of us and the “as close as possible” to the current approach. Will the Government have made it clear that the so-called Minister confirm whether we have now accepted that “notwithstanding” clauses will not be introduced. frictionless trade is not possible? Can he tell us a little more about what “as close as possible” actually means The legislation follows from commitments made in for businesses in Northern Ireland that are looking the Government’sCommand Paper on the implementation forward to 1 January with some trepidation? of the protocol, which was published in May. The Bill will ensure that EU goods moving into Northern Ireland remain free from customs duties or processes. Although Jesse Norman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his we recognise and are addressing the challenges relating question and, yes, the legal basis on which VAT is to the movement of goods from Great Britain to Northern charged will change. I will spare him the details of the Ireland, we should not lose sight of the benefits to difference between import VAT and acquisition VAT, Northern Ireland of having continuing access to the EU but it will change. The experience of those who pay market. VAT will be very similar, if not identical, to the system we have in place at the moment. HMRC and the In addition, this legislation will ensure that the UK Government have identified flexibilities, which allow customs regime applies to goods moved from Northern that to be put in place. Of course, there will continue to Ireland to Great Britain if they do not qualify for be the normal processes of enforcement that one would unfettered access.The Bill will also introduce anti-avoidance expect to see from HMRC in order to make sure that rules to prevent goods from being rerouted through VAT is properly paid in the usual way. Northern Ireland to avoid UK customs duties or associated obligations, and its measures will ensure that customs enforcement and penalties, along with review and appeal John Redwood: These are urgent and important issues. processes, are in place in relation to duty and that they We heard earlier from the Chancellor of the Duchy of continue to work alongside EU legislation in Northern Lancaster that there are various delays to the full Ireland and can be applied, where required, to movements implementation of trade arrangements into and out of of goods between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Northern Ireland as a result of his negotiations. Will they be incorporated into this legislation, and do they Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): I welcome provide a brake on the immediate introduction of these the thrust of the Bill. We have heard a lot about the complex double-taxation arrangements? anti-avoidance approach in recent months, but we have never seen any detail as to how it will work. This is a Jesse Norman: I have no doubt that the Chancellor of critical issue, particularly for the agrifood sector, to make the Duchy of Lancaster will be updating the House sure that inferior product is not coming into Northern over time as the different provisions he has negotiated Ireland and taking advantage of the protocol, and there come into force but, from our point of view, the position is the risk of organised crime in Ireland as well. When remains as stated, that is to say that VAT will become will we see detail on exactly how it will look? chargeable by a slightly different legal means, but in substantially the same way in Northern Ireland as it is Jesse Norman: As the hon. Gentleman will know, at the moment. The mechanisms we have put in place goods that are, as it were, normally circulating in Northern are designed to ensure that, as far as possible, VAT will Ireland will be open to go into Great Britain from the be accounted for in the same way as it is today. 901 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 902

Existing rules in relation to movements of goods particularly arises in relation to the Northern Ireland between Northern Ireland in the EU, including the rules protocol, as he will be aware, and the end of the relating to acquisitions and distance selling, will continue transition period, and that has meant a change to to apply. Goods entering Great Britain from Northern low-value consignment relief and the changes I have Ireland will be subject to VAT as though they were described. I am grateful to him for his contribution and imports under the relevant UK legislation. Similarly, suggestion. goods entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain The Bill also includes provision for an increase in the will also be subject to VAT as though they were imports rate of duty on aviation gasoline, which will apply and relevant EU or UK legislation will apply, but let me across the UK. Otherwise known as avgas, the fuel is a add that the Government are adopting an approach form of leaded petrol predominantly used in leisure that minimises any changes for goods moving between flying. The change made by clause 6 of the Bill will Northern Ireland and Great Britain. increase the avgas rate by half of a penny to 38.2p a litre from 1 January next year. By way of explanation, the Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP): On a point Northern Ireland protocol requires that Northern Ireland of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, can you clarify whether continues to comply with the EU’s energy taxation Members in the Chamber should be socially distancing directive following the end of the transition period. It by staying on the seats that have ticks on them? sets a minimum level of duty in euros on unleaded petrol used for propulsion. After some careful consideration, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Yes, that is the Government have chosen to apply the change to the what the ticks are there for. I hope that all Members will whole of the UK to ensure consistency between Great abide by them so that we can have safe social distancing. Britain and Northern Ireland, avoid burdens on business Thank you very much. and reduce compliance risks for HMRC.

Jesse Norman: In addition, the Bill amends current The Bill also includes a clause to ensure HMRC has legislation for excise duty to be charged when certain access to the same or similar tools to prevent insurance goods, such as alcohol and tobacco, are moved from premium tax evasion as it does at present, regardless of Great Britain to Northern Ireland. The changes are whether an insurer is based in an EU member state. necessary to ensure that there is a fully functioning VAT Overseas insurers are liable to pay insurance premium and excise regime in place in relation to Northern Ireland tax when they supply general insurance for UK-located at the end of the transition period. risks. Occasionally, overseas insurers do not pay the insurance premium tax they owe, so it is important that In line with the protocol, Northern Ireland will maintain HMRC has access to tools that deter and tackle that form alignment with existing EU excise rules. That means a of evasion. Up to now, it has been using EU provisions change to excise duty is required when goods are moved to prevent evasion by insurers based in EU member to Northern Ireland from Great Britain, but the states. Government are adopting an approach using flexibilities and EU rules that minimises changes for excise goods Separately, HMRC can issue liability notices in cases moving between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. involving insurers based in any country outside the EU A small number of other taxation measures also need with which the UK does not have a mutual assistance to be in place before the end of the transition period. agreement. Given that the EU provisions expire at the The Bill introduces a new system for collecting VAT on end of the transition period, this clause will enable cross-border goods. That includes moving VAT collection HMRC to issue liability notices in evasion cases involving on certain imported goods away from the border and insurers based in any country with which the UK does involving operators of online marketplaces in the collection not have a mutual assistance agreement, including EU of VAT at the point of sale. member states. In addition, measures in the Bill will remove the VAT Finally, the Bill introduces new powers that will enable relief on imported low-value items so that VAT will be HMRC to raise tax charges under the controlled foreign due on all consignments, irrespective of their value. The companies legislation for the period from 1 January relief has been the subject of long-standing abuse and 2013 to 31 December 2018. This is a technical provision removing it will build on Government efforts to level that will deal efficiently with the legacy state aid decision the playing field for UK businesses still further by relating to the period before the UK left the European protecting high streets from VAT-free imports. Together, Union. the changes will improve the effectiveness of VATcollection This Bill will give people and businesses throughout on imported goods, tackle non-compliance and protect the UK certainty about the arrangements that will apply the flow of goods at the border. from 1 January next year. It will play a part in further safeguarding the unity and integrity of this country, Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I very both in the months ahead and long into the future. much support the measures that the Minister is talking I commend the Bill to the House. about. Why is the measure just for low-value goods? There will be other goods where a similar loophole applies, such as watches or jewellery that have a value Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Before I call above £135. Is this not an opportunity to close that Anneliese Dodds, let me say that the wind-ups will loophole as well? begin at 5 o’clock at the latest, and that 13 Members wish to speak and are all here. We therefore know that Jesse Norman: I thank my hon. Friend for his question, there will definitely be 13 Members speaking, so colleagues and I will take that under review. We have put in place a should really be thinking about speeches lasting for set of measures designed to tidy up the position that six minutes. Even if I do not put the clock on, it would 903 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 904

[Mr Deputy Speaker] Government for the way that they have negotiated. Does she have no words of criticism for the EU negotiators be really useful if everybody shows at least some discipline in this two-way negotiation? on that, so that everybody can get a fair crack of the whip. Anneliese Dodds: Of course we need application and a determination to conclude a deal on both sides; that 3.46 pm surely is obvious. But the fact remains, as I will go on to describe, that it was the UK Government that, rather Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): It is a than tabling this Bill many weeks ago, which they could year to the day since the Chancellor boasted that there have done, decided to effectively retain provisions that was no need to plan for no deal because threatentobreakinternationallaw.ThatisontheGovernment’s “we will have a deal.” head, and it is something that the Government must surely Yet today, as we debate this Bill, we stand on the brink be responsible for. of a no-deal Brexit that would destroy jobs and livelihoods The irresponsible approach that we have seen recently right across the United Kingdom. We have only 22 days speaks to a wider pattern over the last 12 months of to go until the end of the transition period, with still no recklessness with public finances, broken promises to deal in sight. the British people and short-term thinking that is doing When we debated yesterday the Ways and Means long-term damage to our country. The Prime Minister resolutions associated with this Bill, a number of promised the British people that he would get Brexit Government Members claimed that agreements between done.He said he had an “oven-ready”agreement. Whatever nations are often only finalised at the last minute—that he has got cooking ahead of his dinner with von der there is nothing out of the ordinary about this Government’s Leyen tonight, my message to him is to get on and deliver approach. That is because for run-of-the-mill agreements what was promised. there is a fall-back option, a status quo. But failing to reach a deal now does not mean a return to the status Sir William Cash: I would just like to point out to the quo—that we stay as we are. It means extensive economic hon. Lady that Labour Governments, not to mention damage to the tune of an additional 2% loss of GDP, Conservative Governments or the coalition Government on top of the 4% loss of GDP that the Office for Budget after 2010—there is a host of examples by a number of Responsibility has calculated would be the impact of a Governments—have passed treaty overrides, on exactly very thin deal: the type of thin-as-gruel deal that the the same principles relating to Finance Bills, in the past. Conservatives look set to deliver. If she wants to construe that as breaking international law, she can, but the reality is that it is consistent with Mr Perkins: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, but article 46 of the Vienna convention. even the statistics that she refers to regarding the overall impact on the economy mask the absolutely catastrophic Anneliese Dodds: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman impact that no deal would have on individual businesses mentions that situation, because it has been referred to and individual industries. I had the pleasure of visiting by those who favoured the Government’s approach the Toyota factory in Derby. No deal means that the previously. However, I gently state to him that if he is entire purpose of that factory being based in Derby is referring in particular to provisions against tax avoidance— under serious threat. Alongside those statistics about the example of a general anti-avoidance rule—then, the overall impact, it is really important that we recognise sadly,I believe he is mistaken. In that case,that commitment that the situation is much worse than that for individual and the ability to apply such rules was actually a businesses and industries. fundamental principle agreed to by this country as part of a multilateral agreement that it concluded with the Anneliese Dodds: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. OECD, so I fear that that example is not as telling as he There is potentially a very, very severe impact from no may wish it to be. deal, but, as I will go on to explain, there is already a With just three weeks to go until the end of the concrete and very acute impact on our economy. I am transition period, the Government published late yesterday particularly concerned about the situation for many afternoon the 116-page Bill that we are discussing now, businesses based in Northern Ireland. setting out detailed new rules for tax and customs This damage will be long lasting, likely to outlive duties. Members of this House have been given less even the impact of the current covid crisis. Our country than 24 hours to scrutinise a major piece of post-Brexit cannot afford this. We have already experienced the legislation that will impact businesses and individuals steepest economic downturn in the G7 due to the covid across the country, especially in Northern Ireland. Many crisis, and are predicted by the OECD to experience of the clauses in the Bill, particularly those covering the slowest recovery in the G7. Just the prospect of a customs and excise duties, require the Treasury to make potential no-deal outcome is already leading to chaos in regulations that will set out the actual detail of its the midst of a pandemic. Stockpiling by companies, proposals at a later date, so even with the publication of caused by the threat of no deal, is exacerbating supply the Bill, businesses and individuals still do not have the blockages at our ports. information they need to prepare for the end of the transition period. Kevin Hollinrake: The economic damage that the Earlier today,the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster hon. Member is talking about should a deal not be said there would be “further clarity” forthcoming on agreed would also be inflicted on the European Union, these matters, but again without saying when. In fact, particularly certain parts of the European Union, such the Minister talked a few moments ago about those as the Republic of Ireland. She criticised the UK details coming in due course. His letter to Members 905 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 906 spoke about the fact that there would be information on the Government asking MPs, as small businesses, to get this later; “in the coming days” was the formulation at ready for Brexit. I got two of them, including one that that time. How can he really expect businesses to plan referred to me as an MSP, so perhaps the Government on that basis—on the never-never up to 1 January? are not spending their money particularly wisely or This last-minute approach was not necessary. It is no accurately. use pointing to the complexity of the ongoing negotiations. We know that this Bill could have been published a long Anneliese Dodds: I am grateful to the hon. Member time ago because the Government have been floating for that very relevant point. I am sure that it is not only a Finance Bill for months, so why yet another last- Opposition Members but Government Members who minute scramble? My right hon. Friend the Member for have had many businesses contacting them, often in Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) set it out despair, about the communications and advertisements very clearly: because the Conservatives had a not-so-cunning asking them to get ready when there is so little indication plan to use this Bill as negotiations reached a critical of what they have to get ready for. point by threatening to override the withdrawal agreement. Yesterday morning, the Business, Energy and Industrial At a time when we are seeking to negotiate new trading Strategy Committee heard from the Food and Drink relationships across the international community, and Federation, which said that the guidance being published when the Government are trying to project an image of now was already too late. Some 43% of its members global Britain to the world, this tactic certainly sent a who supply Northern Ireland have said that they will clear message, albeit not the message the Government not do so in the first three months of next year. That is intended. desperately worrying. TheCityUK said that in the worst-case It is welcome that the Government finally saw sense scenario, 40% of the UK’s EU-related financial activity yesterday, although we have already seen damage being could be lost. Every day between now and the end of done. Both in relation to the provisions in the Bill and the year counts to get a deal, and failing that, to plan for more generally, the time is running out to ready our the no-deal outcome that the Prime Minister himself country for the challenges ahead. The Public Accounts conceded would represent a failure of statecraft. Committee was clear last week that: With that in mind, Labour supports this Bill passing. “Government is not doing enough to ensure businesses and Labour is a responsible Opposition, and we are determined citizens will be ready for the end of the transition period”. to see the minimum disruption possible, but we cannot It expressed concern at reports from industry bodies support such continued lack of clarity on critical issues. that the Government had not provided the key information When businesses need clarity as a matter of urgency, it needed for businesses to prepare. Indeed, the Committee is not good enough to state that further guidance will be indicated that more than a third of small and medium-sized forthcoming. At the very least, they need a timetable for enterprises still believed that the transition period would the provision of that greater certainty. They need to be extended. know what rules of origin will apply from 1 January. The Cabinet Office has admitted that it is well behind The continued lack of clarity could create unprecedented in recruiting the customs agents desperately needed for new costs. They need to know when appropriate tariff 1 January, despite more than £80 million having been codes will be published. They need to know whether spent so far. Yet again, earlier today, the Chancellor of the Government will be providing easements, and they the Duchy of Lancaster refused to specify exactly how need to know these things in concrete terms, not through many additional customs agents had been recruited. the winks and nudges that have substituted for clarity Overall, £4.4 billion has been spent by the Government so far. on preparations for Brexit and the end of the transition Businesses need to know whether there will be a period, yet we are still not ready. pause in penalties arising out of this legislation and, if so, what would be done to counterbalance that and Jesse Norman: I am terribly grateful to the hon. Lady prevent wilful avoidance. They need to know whether for giving way. She has criticised the Government for the measures in the Bill countermand the existing guidance spending £80 million in support of traders and a facilitated provided to Northern Irish businesses, some of which approach to the border. Could she tell us whether she was updated just on 7 December. They need to know, as thinks that number is too large or too small? revealed in The Irish Times, whether and when the information on the trusted trader scheme for Northern Anneliese Dodds: With enormous respect to the Minister, Irish business—details of which have allegedly been the problem with his Government’s approach is the fact coming out of internal communications —is going to that they do not indicate what they have got with that be fully published, so that businesses can follow that spending. As I said, £4.4 billion has been spent on scheme. preparedness for Brexit and for the end of the transition I want to end my contribution by asking the Minister period, and the £80 million that he refers to, but there is to place himself in the shoes of a small manufacturing no indication from the Government of how manyadditional company.We have many excellent such companies across customs officers we have received as a result of that the United Kingdom—in Northern Ireland and in Great spending. I hoped that he was intervening on me to Britain. Companies will already have faced enormous provide an indication of the additional workforce that challenges during this period because of covid. Potentially, has been recruited. It is a matter of regret that he was they have staff off because they have to self-isolate. unable to do so. Potentially, there is continuing uncertainty about the future of furlough because of this Government’s Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): The hon. unwillingness to provide that certainty. Potentially, they Lady is quite rightly querying how money has been were counting on the job retention bonus, but they are spent. I do not know whether she has had letters from not going to receive it. They are now trying to plan 907 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 908

[Anneliese Dodds] not be allowed to undermine the unfettered sovereignty of the United Kingdom Parliament. That sovereignty is which members of staff they will need to have in the based on the referendum, the votes, the Acts of Parliament company at work to get ready for 1 January. The stress that everybody in this House on the Government Benches and strain are immense. and the House of Lords agreed to, and, for that matter, The Minister and his Government must do all they section 38 of the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) can to overcome those uncertainties and help businesses Act 2020, which was passed by a majority of 120 in this to plan. That is the least they can do for businesses and House—not a word of dissent from the House of Lords the people who work for them, who have had such a and not a word of dissent from any Member of this House. hard year. In conclusion, I intend to table these amendments to examine the question when we get to the Report stage 4.1 pm next week. Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): I simply would like Mr Carmichael: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? to put on record it on Second Reading the fact that, as I made clear in a point of order earlier, consideration on Sir William Cash: It is always a pleasure to give way Report will take place next week and a lot will happen to the right hon. Gentleman, with whom I have been between now and then. The UKIM Bill at the moment jousting on these questions for the best part of 20 years. has the “notwithstanding” provisions in it; they have not yet been taken out. We do not yet know what will Mr Carmichael: I hate to think it is the best part, but transpire this evening or at any point between now and certainly it has been almost 20 years. The hon. Gentleman the Report stage of this Bill next week. Therefore, I have gives an interesting list of topics that his Committee has given instructions for the tabling of amendments to considered. The actual, practical application of these reinsert the “notwithstanding”provisions for the purposes matters will be very different if the ratio decidendi in of this Bill, which would have appeared but for the fact the Factortame case continues to have application in that the decision had already been made yesterday, Northern Ireland post 31 December. Is that a matter he before a statement was made to the House of Commons. has considered, and what impact does he think it has on That was dealt with today in principle, although not the these things? question of what actually is going to be done. Therefore, for practical purposes, all I need say on Second Reading Sir William Cash: As somebody who has taken a is that there are relevant provisions within the scope of great interest in Irish matters since I came into this this Bill, in clause 9, which is entitled “Recovery of House, I can only say the answer to that is yes. However, unlawful state aid”. I also know that there is an enormous amount of Earlier this afternoon, I chaired, as I always do on malicious rubbish talked about the implications for the Wednesdays, the European Scrutiny Committee. We have hard border. We are not going to impose a hard border. a 10 or 15-page paper on this question. The report, If anybody does, it will be the EU. If the EU gets its way which will be signed off today and then published, on these matters, believe me, we are going to end up covers reform of state aid rules and potential implications with difficulties that will have been created by the EU, for the UK and includes a full description of what the not by us. I remember Martin Selmayr saying that the state aid rules would mean; what the evaluation is at the price the United Kingdom would have to pay would be moment by the European Commission; what it intends the loss of Northern Ireland. I mean, it is as bad as that. to do with respect to state aid in relation to enforcement I therefore say that I do take a great interest in it, proceedings; matters of sovereignty regarding the United because I want the Union to survive and to prosper. I Kingdom; the timetable for amendments to the EU believe it can, but it will not be able to if we end up with state aid rule book; and the continued relevance of provisions that undermine the sovereignty of the United EU state aid law to the UK. Kingdom Parliament. I am reading out some headline points, which also On the specific question of state aid, that is a matter include infringement proceedings for state aid granted within the scope of the Bill. I therefore expect our before 31 December; state aid law under the protocol on amendment to be able to be called. Precisely what I do Ireland and Northern Ireland; state aid commitments—this about it at that time will depend on the outcome of the is of course highly relevant to what the Minister said negotiations, but I am not going to buy a pig in a poke at the beginning, and I strongly advise him to read the and accept the idea that it is all over and done with report carefully—and state aid commitments in the because somebody who happens to be a Government EU-UK trade agreement, which the Prime Minister is Minister made a statement yesterday from Brussels and going to be discussing today, and we do not know the then came to the House to put forward his case today. outcome of that; the impact of EU subsidy controls on We have not seen the details, so I want to reserve my the competitors to UK businesses; and article 10 of the position until I know exactly what the outcome of the protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland, which my negotiations is. I would warrant that the 70% of the British right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John people would agree with me. Redwood) referred to. Indeed, I did too this afternoon, when my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy 4.7 pm of Lancaster made his statement and I pointed out that not only do I agree 100% with what the Prime Minister Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): The way said at Prime Minister’s questions on all those relevant this Bill has been brought to the House today, less than matters, wishing him well for this evening, but that what 24 hours since it was published yesterday, really shows the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster announced the disrespect the Government have for Parliament and yesterday, in principle, and then reaffirmed today must for all of us here today. It is unacceptable that the UK 909 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 910

Government are coming so late in the day with these House to explain the reasons for their actions and to be proposals and are blatantly using them as a form of scrutinised on their thinking, rather than just making leverage in their negotiations. changes that will make a real difference to the lives and The proposals before us today will impact on the livelihoods of people across these islands and more daily lives of residents in Northern Ireland and of widely. Changes should not just go through on the nod. businesses more widely. I have concerns, not least from The withdrawal agreement has the consent mechanism what the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) has for Stormont, which will kick in only at the end of 2024. just said, that the clauses being taken out could easily be The UK Government must explain how their engagement put back in again—if not by him, then by the Government will operate on all the mechanisms between then and themselves. We have no certainty over that because of now.This matter is horribly complicated and my sympathies the way they have conducted these negotiations. are with all those who have to operate under these very As MPs, we do not have adequate time to scrutinise difficult circumstances. So much of the uncertainty is what is in front of us this afternoon. Businesses and also swathed in huge amounts of red tape. The red tape stakeholders have also been excluded from the process that the Brexiteers claimed they were going to remove and they are, of course, those who will feel the impact will now be wrapped around Northern Ireland. the most. It is typical of the slapdash, chaotic way the I received very little by way of reassurance from the UK Government do things, but I would like very much Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in his statement to put on record my dismay and regret at this shambles. and his responses to Members earlier today. Too much I would also like to say that, while I have huge sympathy is uncertain, and a lot of it is mince. The derogation in for those who have worked on the drafting on the Bill, it chilled meat, sausages, mince and unfrozen prepared would not be the first Bill that has come back with meals is one such aspect. [Laughter.] Keep up, keep up! errors and drafting issues because it has been prepared RTÉ’s Tony Connelly notes that when the as-yet-to-be- in haste. We have also seen that with some of the determined derogation period expires, supermarkets in financial services statutory instruments that have gone Northern Ireland will need to source products locally or through. I am very concerned that this has been done so from the Republic of Ireland. That may well be good hastily that we will not find out what the errors are until for those producers and good luck to them, but a clear the UK Government come back to fix them later. competitive disadvantage is being placed on food exporters The Northern Ireland provisions have huge complexity in Scotland, Wales and England and that cannot be and give significant powers to the Treasury to define in justified by the Government. regulations the goods that are “at risk” of being moved The trusted trader scheme itself is subject to review into the EU. The Minister confirmed yesterday that we three and a half years after the Northern Ireland protocol do not know exactly what those at-risk goods are, which begins, but what mechanisms exist to hold it to account causes huge uncertainty for those moving goods in and in the meantime to ensure that it is effective and that it out of Northern Ireland. As the hon. Member for does not have a distorting effect, which we suspect that Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds) said, that has a chilling it may do? What is in place now to ensure that there is effect on businesses that want to transact their business not a further panic in a couple of months’ time due to a as normal, but just do not know what it is that they are lack of qualified staff to carry out checks for export being expected to prepare for. health certificates? Given the propensity of this Government The letter that we received earlier from the Financial to hand in their homework late if the dog has not already Secretary to the Treasury confirms that changes to the eaten it, what concrete assurances can they give? regulations will be made under the negative procedure, I turn now to enforcement. The Prime Minister could so this House will have no ability to further scrutinise not answer the question earlier from the Leader of the them. The same is true of Stormont and it is crucial that Opposition on the existence, or otherwise, of 50,000 we hear Stormont’s views on these regulations and the customs agents, and the Minister today could not answer effect of them. the same question from the hon. Member for Oxford “Take back control,” this Government said. Well, it East. I want to know a bit more about these customs seems that most of the control is either going to the agents. Where are they? How many of them are there? Treasury or to officers in HMRC. All these regulations Will they be prioritised for the big ports in the UK, or are being put forward in such a way as to remove will the Government run the risk of leaving the door scrutiny and to remove control. Throughout the letter open to smuggling and tax-dodging via the short straits? that we received earlier from the Financial Secretary to As the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) the Treasury, references were made to the use of the mentioned earlier, there is a risk of criminality as well as negative procedure and, curiously, to powers that there just of error. are no plans for the Government to use. It may not be What assessment have the Government made of the the plan now to use them, but even the best laid plans competitiveness of our export businesses with reference gang aft agley, as happens so often and so wildly with to schedule 3 of the Bill? If customs charges now apply, this Government. How will the scrutiny work should surely it will make it more difficult for people to export the Government decide to make these changes? Lots of as well as to import? This is a general concern that has powers are being hived off, as we can well see. The been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen amendment tabled in my name and the names of my North (Kirsty Blackman) on multiple occasions.It presents colleagues attempts to redress some of the democratic an extra hassle for small businesses as well as an extra deficit in the way that the Government are conducting unanticipated expense for consumers. I give the House a themselves. small example. I ordered a necklace some time ago from The affirmative procedure, as with many procedures the United States and when it arrived a huge customs in this place, is not perfect by any means, but at the very charge was slapped on it. Had I known about it before least this would make the UK Government come to this I had ordered it, I might not have ordered it, given the 911 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 912

[Alison Thewliss] Mundell), threatened to resign if Northern Ireland was given different treatment. Just a couple of years ago, they scale of the charge. Consumers do not know what they said: will end up with if they order something online. When “Having fought just four years ago to keep our country together, we see something online, we see what the price of it is the integrity of our United Kingdom remains the single most and what the postage is, but we do not see that customs important issue for us in these negotiations. charge, which is really not transparent. The earrings Any deal that delivers a differentiated settlement for Northern that I am wearing today are from a small business based Ireland beyond the differences that already exist on an all Ireland in Slovenia, which was able to send them with no basis (eg agriculture), or can be brought under the provisions of additional charges because we were a member of the the Belfast Agreement, would undermine the integrity of our UK … European Union. Some 70% of Irish online purchases internal market and this United Kingdom We could not support any deal that…leads to Northern Ireland having a different come from the UK. I want to know from the Minister relationship with the EU than the rest of the UK, beyond what what the impact of the changes will be on our own currently exists.” businesses that wish to export to the Irish Republic. Well, that is exactly what we have. It is exactly what the Bill is and what it does, yet those two Members are still Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): about. The Scottish Conservatives really do have more The hon. Lady makes an almost persuasive case about faces than the town clock. the difficulty of fragmenting a customs union that has been in place for only 40 years or so. How much more To move on to the Chancellor of the Duchy of difficult would it be to fragment the United Kingdom, a Lancaster, he has an absolute brass neck to describe the customs union that has been in place for centuries? situation in Northern Ireland as the “best of both worlds”. He said on ITV that Northern Ireland would have “access to the European single market, because there is no Alison Thewliss: The hon. Gentleman makes a good infrastructure on the island of Ireland, and at the same time attempt there, but the issue is really the UK Government unfettered access to the rest of the UK market.” and their incompetence in dealing with all these issues, which could well have been anticipated, as well as in “The best of both worlds”—in Scotland, we have heard taking us out of the large trading bloc on our doorstep that before. The Better Together campaign told us that from which we have benefited for 40 years and from the only risk of losing our place in the EU was if Scotland which our businesses have been able to export their voted for independence. Where are we now? goods. We in Scotland have been able to export our The United Kingdom Internal Market Bill farce food and drink very easily, very simply and without any undermines yet further the integrity of this crumbling barriers. These are barriers that the UK Government Union, and today’s Bill takes another sledgehammer to wish to put in place—and if they wish to put them in the support structures that this Government believe are place with an independent Scotland, that is their choice, stronger than they are. The people of Scotland—those not ours. who voted no as well as those who voted yes, and those who were unable to vote six years ago—have been Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) (Con): Will the hon. watching what has been going on. They do not want a Lady give way? UK Government who drag Scotland out of the EU—they voted very clearly, by 62%, to remain—they do not want a UK Government who threaten to break international Alison Thewliss: I have almost finished, so I want to law and spoil our standing in the world, and they do not make a little progress, but I will try to bring the hon. want a UK Government to force Scotland into an Lady in later. insular and poorer future. People want their chance to I am curious about what assessment the Government have their say. The 15 polls in a row that now back have made of the chilling effect of these changes. It is independence show clearly to me and everybody else also very interesting that the customs duties will benefit that the people of Scotland believe that things have the Irish Exchequer and be to the detriment of our changed. As Winnie Ewing said: people who wish to export. I note that paragraph 12 of “Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on.” schedule 1 will amend the Isle of Man Act 1979, and that part 6 of new schedule 9ZB to the Value Added Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Members should Tax Act 1994, which is inserted by schedule 2, also be aiming to speak for not much longer than four relates to the Isle of Man, so I would be grateful if the minutes, if we are to get everybody in. I call Sir John Government told us what communication they have Redwood. had with the Manx authorities on the proposals. Obviously those proposals have come out overnight, so I do not know what discussions have been had, but it would be 4.19 pm very interesting to find out. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I have declared Scotland has not been offered the deal that Northern my business interests in the Register of Members’Financial Ireland has been offered. The Financial Secretary to the Interests. Treasury spoke about the benefits of the EU single The origins of this legislation lie in the negotiations market that people in Northern Ireland will enjoy. under the previous Prime Minister that introduced the Lucky them. Scotland is the only part of this supposed whole idea of a Northern Ireland protocol. I regretted Union of equals not to get any of what we asked for, those negotiations very much. I opposed them at the and we will see our own industries disadvantaged. To time and did not vote for the deals that my right hon. add insult to our very evident injury, Baroness Davidson Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) came and the then Scottish Secretary, the right hon. Member forward with, because I thought they were designed by for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David the EU as a lever to try to delay, dilute or damage Brexit. 913 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 914

When the current Government asked me to support supermarkets and some meat products and so forth. their version of the withdrawal agreement, I still had Does that not require some kind of recognition in this considerable reservations about the Northern Ireland legislation? Does it not mean that these jurisdictions do protocol. I put those to Ministers, who reassured me not kick in during the period of grace that we are told and said, “This is only an outline operation in the will be available? withdrawal agreement as currently drafted. None of the We need to have more detail from the Government on detail has been done. We will negotiate very strongly. what exactly happens at the border. I have always We will get rid of the offensive features that you don’t explained to the House and others who are not very like.” They said that they shared some of my concerns interested that VAT and excise take place electronically and that they would come back with something much across the borders at the moment, so we are talking better. I am always trusting of colleagues, so I said that largely about an electronic border. We need to know that was very good to know but that I did not have the how this electronic border will be programmed to deal same confidence in the EU. with the competing jurisdictions and competing incidences I thought it was unlikely that the EU would want to of taxation, and how the product codes and shipment facilitate that in the way that I and the Government codes will correctly identify the products by category would like. so with some friends, I backed my hon. that will be suborned by the EU jurisdiction as well as, Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) in properly, by the UK jurisdiction, which ideally would saying that the way through this was to put clause 38 be handling the whole thing. into the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill. We do not have nearly enough time to discuss the Under that clause, were the EU to act in bad faith and fundamentally big issues of principle that the Bill brings not come up with a workable solution for Northern before us and we have had precious little time to go into Ireland and the other problems, we would have asserted the detail. It is all very sad that this rush job is being UK sovereignty in our version of the treaty, and so in done like this, but I hope before the Government finish good law we could use clause 38 to legislate in Britain the debate today they will have done a better job of for what we intend to do, overriding the agreement. explaining to someone like me why we need to have this It was quite clear from the drafting of that Bill that dual jurisdiction; how the EU control is going to be we wanted that override, and I would not have dreamt limited; how it is going to operate; how, in the early days, of voting for the thing without the override. The the “transitional arrangements”, which we are told Government were saying that they did not think we about, are going to apply; and why they are not reflected would need to use it, but we could use if we had to, in the current text of this rather unfortunate piece of which is why I was pleased to support them earlier this legislation. week in a very modest override. It is entirely legal; it is the assertion of British sovereignty. We need to keep 4.25 pm that in reserve, because without seeing all the detail Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): It is a great from the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, I am pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Wokingham not satisfied yet that we have a working operation for (John Redwood). Unusually, I found myself agreeing the Northern Ireland border and the matters that we with much of what he said about the time we have to are discussing today—more precisely, who controls the debate this Bill. The points made by my right hon. taxation. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East What I do not like about these proposals is that it is (Mr McFadden) in the previous debate were absolutely extremely difficult for individuals and businesses to on the mark. have to respond to two legal jurisdictions on tax in the As someone who voted in the referendum to remain same place, yet we seem to have both an EU VAT but who represents a seat that voted leave, I have to say system and a UK VAT system. I hope that the UK VAT that when I hear speeches such as the right hon. system will deviate rather more from the EU one and be Gentleman’s, and many others that we are going to friendlier, lower and apply to different things, but the hear, I fear that much of what I have long feared about more that that happens, the more difficult it will be if we the whole Brexit process is coming to pass, which is that are trying to enforce two different VAT systems in one Brexit will be an orphan child and when we have left the part of the United Kingdom. EU and come to our final arrangement, it will be I am also concerned about the enforcement mechanisms. impossible to find anyone, perhaps with the exception We are led to believe that it will be handled by HMRC, of the Prime Minister, who says, “This is the Brexit but we are also told that the ultimate authority on the I was campaigning for.” EU part of VAT and excise will be the European Court, Brexit operated in so many different people’s minds and therefore there are likely to be inspectors and as a different entity. Even now, with a Brexit-backing invigilators—electronic or in person—interfering in the Prime Minister, an overwhelming Tory majority, any process within what should be sovereign United Kingdom Tories who showed a whiff of regard for our future territory. I hope the Government will think again and relationship with Europe banished from the party and push back again. all rebellion quashed, the fundamental contradictions We need more of the detail that the Chancellor of the of Brexit remain unresolved. I have no way of knowing Duchy of Lancaster has so far withheld from the House. whether there will be a deal, but I can be certain that It may be that he does not yet know it all or that his when that deal is signed many who argued earnestly agreement is high level, in principle, but there are details that we should leave the EU will claim, “This was not that we need to know—indeed, details that it would be the Brexit I was campaigning for.” better to know before we legislate today. For example, Let me turn to the measures in the Bill. I confess that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster says that during the referendum our campaign to back remain in delay periods for adjustment will be necessary for Chesterfield hardly touched on the position of Northern 915 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 916

[Mr Toby Perkins] Let me ground my comments in the experience of many people in the UK today. As someone who ran her Ireland. We did speak a bit about the Union in the own business prior to the election, I know that it is context of Scotland, but Northern Ireland was barely often the technical, administrative and procedural that mentioned, yet much of the Bill relates to the provisions can really shift the dial—for example, on the number of relating to Northern Ireland that have become central sales an individual can make or on market price points to the issues that remain. The Labour party is, as I am, for a certain type of product—never mind the administrative resolutely behind the Union and entirely committed and procedural processes that take too much valuable to the Belfast agreement, and we recognise the many time from often hard-pressed smaller traders. Clarity is contradictions that persist. essential, welcome and timely. Once passed, the Bill will I have to say to colleagues from the Democratic ensure that whatever happens in the ongoing trade Unionist party and others that they should not think negotiations with the EU, in an important subset of that these Northern Ireland issues concern very many regulations there is clarity and fairness for businesses of my constituents in Chesterfield. I know from many in the UK. conversations that took place during the general elections Measures in the Bill will change and improve our tax on doorsteps in Chesterfield in 2019, when I was trying system and have been brought forward in separate to raise the issues associated with Northern Ireland, legislation in advance of the proposed Finance Bill. that if the cost of getting a Brexit deal that enables our They will ensure that the UK is prepared, whatever the country to trade freely and regain control of immigration outcome of the Prime Minister’s trip to Brussels later happened to be a united Ireland, many of my Brexit-voting today. We are, and will continue to be, a proud sovereign constituents would accept that in a heartbeat. The trading nation. We are ensuring, and will continue to people of Northern Ireland, whom, we should remember, ensure, a smooth transition and continuity for trading in totality voted to remain, have been badly let down by businesses. many of the people they elected to represent them, What do I mean? Let me be specific and turn to either by those who sold their support to prop up the schedule 3, on amendments to the Value Added Tax disastrous May Government and were then shocked to Act 1994—essential bedtime reading for all, I am certain. be sold down the river by the right hon. Member for In my previous business, I sold volumes of lower-value Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson), or by goods in online marketplaces and online channels to those who, through their absence from this place, allowed customers in the UK, the EU and many other locations the Brexit view to be heard as the dominant opinion of overseas.For too long prior to the election I sawlower-value Northern Ireland. goods advertised by overseas sellers—my competitors— The businesses of Northern Ireland are now starting that were imported from abroad and undercut UK to understand what that failure means for them. Right manufacturers and suppliers. now it means that just weeks away from a change that Currently, overseas sellers can avoid VAT, not charging will impact them more than any other on these islands, it at the point of sale and not handing the revenue back the promise that they will be able to enjoy frictionless to our Exchequer. That means that our country is losing trade has been exposed as wrong. It is irresponsible that twice: our fabulous businesses are losing sales to cheaper when the Government themselves acknowledge that the products from overseas sellers who do not have to administrative impacts on businesses affected by these charge VAT, which is unacceptable, while our Exchequer changes will be significant, those businesses have so is also losing the revenue that such measures raise, little time to plan, and no serious economic or fiscal impact which I remind the House funds the provision of the assessments are contained within. public services, such as the NHS and schools, that we The last-minute nature of the Bill once again exposes rightly value so highly on the Government Benches. the fact that the businesses of Great Britain, and particularly The Bill will remove that overseas-seller anomaly. Northern Ireland, are left vulnerable by this incompetent Specifically, the measures will mean that low-value Government’s pursuit of a promise that they cannot consignment relief—LVCR—is removed from all non-UK keep and should never have made. Although I wish the sellers. All imported goods worth under £135, including Prime Minister well tonight, the whole country needs under those worth under £15, will be subject to VAT at him to remove the spectre of no deal from the nightmares UK rates. Although currently legal, the existing situation we face as we look towards 2021. Once again, the amounts to tax avoidance by overseas sellers and has Government are leaving businesses in the dark, jobs at created distortions in UK marketplaces. It is this risk and industries on the brink. Conservative Government who are clamping down on it. To level the playing field, online marketplaces must Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): The next two now account for their VAT. This Government support speeches will be timed at four minutes, and then everyone our fabulous businessmen and women who trade from else will have three minutes. shops or—like me—online and will continue to do so. Earlier, the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison 4.30 pm Thewliss) mentioned extra exporting barriers. As someone Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) (Con): I am going who has sat and put the labels on to goods going to EU, to break with tradition in this debate and actually talk Ireland and international destinations, I know that for about the Bill. A Bill that is described, in large sections, lower-value goods, any individual consignment worth as primarily technical, administrative and procedural under £270 gets a CN23 sticker with all the declarations will not always excite the juices in Parliament, among on it, and then off it pops and there are no additional the public or in the press but, although dry in sections, barriers between the EU and the US. No change that this Bill contains important measures, and I rise to support we will make today will put in place extra paperwork: them. what was done for the EU was always what happened 917 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 918 anyway—it automatically comes off the printer. I am sure 4.37 pm there are great British jewellers who can sell us wonderful Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con): earrings— The existence and contents of the Bill encapsulate the opportunities and complexities that we, the United Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Sorry Katherine Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, face —that is four minutes. as we reach the end of the transition period. As we regain control of our money, borders and laws, we have 4.34 pm the opportunity to innovate and, in relation to taxation, to remould our regulations around the values and Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): requirements of our modern UK economy. Yesterday in the debate on the Ways and Means resolutions, For example, the Bill introduces some administrative I said that I would be supporting the Bill because our and procedural VAT changes that not only are legally country needs it. It needs it for the core purposes of the necessary, but allow us to tackle non-compliance and to Bill, which are the smooth continuity of business after support our high streets to compete with online sales. the transition period, being ready, and creating a more That is important in the current economic climate where, level playing field for UK businesses. for nearly nine months, our high streets have faced I recognise that leaving the EU is a field full of tough unprecedented restrictions and sales have plummeted, issues, but the most problematic element is the nature of while online retailers have traded unhindered and made our land border with it. Seeking to deliver Brexit while record profits. I therefore support the measures in the protecting the Good Friday agreement was the major Bill that stipulate that VAT is due from online sales by stumbling block in our endless debates and struggles companies that import goods into the UK. That will last year, so I am pleased to see progress made on that ensure a more level playing field for our bricks-and-mortar issue. We had a statement on it earlier; I will not go over retailers. trodden ground. Another opportunity presented by our departure from There are businesses in Harrogate and Knaresborough the EU and the end of the transition period is our that do significant trade selling to and buying from potential ability to crack down on tax evasion. The Bill Northern Ireland. The Bill will be welcome news for also makes technical provisions on that issue. As well as them. More people in Harrogate and Knaresborough realising the administrative opportunities that we can are affected by internet shopping, either buying from or embrace as we leave the EU, the Bill reflects some of the selling via online platforms. Even if people do not buy complexities that have inevitably arisen as we, an historic online, they are affected by the struggles on the high Union of four distinct nations, seek to disentangle ourselves street. It is a tough time for retailers and, of course, from 40 years of economic and increasingly political union high streets provide countless thousands of jobs. They with our European neighbours. are economic hubs. Our high streets and town centres During the referendum campaign in 2016, I was not also have a social function beyond an economic one. actively involved in politics and I was not a member of They provide a community focal point. a political party, but I agonised over my vote. I was torn Before coming here, I worked in retail and for brands between the moral conviction that our UK Parliament that sell through retail. When I talk to retailers, they say should be sovereign and the practical acknowledgement that they just want a level playing field. They are talking that any divorce after 40 years of union will be complicated widely when they use that phrase, but they are talking and messy—of course, both are true. Following 17 million about taxation, particularly business rates and VAT. votes to leave the EU, it is right and democratic to leave, The Bill helps to create more of a level playing field but is also a complex and challenging process that has with a new model for the treatment of VAT on goods tested our determination and resolve for three and a arriving in the UK from overseas. The collection moves half years. That is why the Bill must also make provision to the overseas seller or the online marketplace where for all the circumstances that we may face following that transaction occurs. As a result, it will be easier to the outcome of ongoing trade negotiations. We cannot collect VAT and harder to avoid it. The last thing that a gloss over or underestimate these complexities or pretend business having a tough time needs is for competitors to that they should not exist. The history of the relationship have a 20% price advantage. High street businesses and between each of our four nations is unique, and it is online players based here pay VAT,so if overseas businesses based on cultural and relational settlements as much as are allowed to make VAT-free sales, they are unfairly law and statute. Whatever the outcome of the trade undercut. negotiations,wemustensurethatwehaveaVATandcustoms I do not think the measure is controversial; it is framework in place to allow trade across the UK to entirely reasonable. Indeed, as I mentioned yesterday, continue as seamlessly as possible. That is what this Bill there are moves across the world in this policy direction. will achieve, and it is why I support it as a sensible, I commented on the other measures in the Bill yesterday, responsible and necessary piece of legislation. so I will not detain the House with repetition. The past year has obviously been one of the toughest 4.40 pm on record in peacetime. The economic impact will be Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): felt for many years. We also have the consequences of Somehow or other, I always thought that taking back Brexit. The need for the continuity of business operation control would look rather different for this place than is profound. Our whole United Kingdom must focus on this: to have just 24 hours to consider 112 pages of growth as we seek to protect livelihoods as we have highly technical and detailed taxation legislation is an sought to protect lives. The Bill is part of the measures affront and insult to this House, and an abuse of the being taken to secure our business future, and that is process by which we are supposed to govern ourselves. why I will support it. Those on the Treasury Bench who have brought forward 919 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 920

[Mr Alistair Carmichael] TD Simon Coveney, the Fine Gael Minister for Foreign Affairs, has said that this legislation in this way should hang their heads in “Practical cooperation and flexibility has been agreed to make shame.But, as the hon. Member for Oxford East (Anneliese it as manageable as possible for people and businesses.” Dodds) indicated in her contribution, it is, unfortunately, Amen to that, and may the same spirit suffuse the necessary. It is remarkable that amongst these 112 pages continuing negotiations elsewhere in Europe. there are so many enabling provisions; so we know that in fact the detail is still to come and there will require to Clauses 2, 3 and 4 put in place the practical requirements be secondary legislation to implement the detail of to allow for the charging of customs duties and VAT what our businesses will actually need. away from the geographical border with the Republic of The kindest comment I can make about the Bill at Ireland while continuing to protect the ability of Northern this stage, given the time available to me, is that it is just Irish products to travel without restrictions to the rest a foretaste of things to come. Essentially, most of what of the United Kingdom. This respects the Government’s we have here pertains to the relationship with Northern commitment that goods from Northern Ireland will Ireland, and even at this stage the Government are still continue to have unfettered access to the rest of the United tying themselves in knots because they promised three Kingdom. things of which they could only ever at best deliver two. Clause 7 proposes that VAT collection for goods sold They said we could come out of the customs union or in the UK by overseas sellers will move away from the we would have no border north and south or have no border either directly to the overseas seller or,importantly, border east or west. In fact, if we were going to come where the sale has been facilitated by an online marketplace, out of the customs union, eventually we had to have a to that marketplace. This is a very important step that border north or south, or east or west; we could not marks, I hope, the beginning of a much wider reassessment have all three. I listened to the right hon. Member for of the role of online marketplaces and the responsibility Wokingham (John Redwood) talking about electronic that they should properly have for the goods of international borders, but the clue is in the title: it is a border. Once origin that they sell. All goods sold on our high streets sovereignty trumps economics, that inevitably leads to pay the appropriate level of VAT, yet high street shops having borders—something that should be heard in all are being unfairly undercut by online international parts of this House. competitors that have avoided VAT. This clause allows I was struck by the hon. Member for Glasgow Central the first step to be taken in recognising that the online (Alison Thewliss) quoting Robert Burns, saying: marketplace has come of age, and with that coming of “The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men age it needs to accept the responsibilities of its powerful market-making position. Gang aft agley,” I was disappointed and a little surprised that she did I hope that the link between the facilitation of sale and not then deliver the next line of that stanza: wider responsibilities will be a theme that the Government expand on in the coming months. As I mentioned in the “The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men debate yesterday, the same argument can be applied to Gang aft agley, areas of environmental legislation, such as the extended An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain, producer responsibility, as well as the collection of For promis’d joy!” electronic waste for recycling. If ever I heard the perfect way of describing Brexit, that I welcome Her Majesty’s Government’s approach. It has got to be it: isnolongercredibleforthehugelypowerfulandcommercially “An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain, dominant online marketplaces to wash their hands of For promis’d joy!” what actually passes through their platforms. The House will remember, of course, that Robert Burns was an exciseman, so he would know quite a lot about 4.46 pm customs and the matters in this Bill; Lord alone knows what he would make of it if he were alive today. Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Broadland (), particularly given the fact that he highlighted 4.44 pm that just yesterday, we were all wondering what was going Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con): This time yesterday to be in this Bill. we, frankly, would all have celebrated seeing what is in What a complete and utter boorach the last 24 hours this Bill; today, I want to celebrate what is not in it. It is have been. The right hon. Member for Orkney and great that we do not have to consider the inclusion of Shetland (Mr Carmichael) rightly highlighted the shambolic additional measures to take account of the failure of scenes that we have all seen. I heard yesterday from the Joint Committee to come to an agreement on the those on the Government Benches that the reason for proper interpretation of the Northern Irish protocol; this is that we are currently in a fast-paced environment. I am delighted to learn that we have now come to the This has been going on for four and a half years, with pragmatic and proportionate way found by the Joint three Prime Ministers and two general elections. How Committee for the interpretation and enforcement of many resignations? How many U-turns? And the its provisions. Just a few days ago the European Union Government leave it until three weeks before the end of asserted that all goods travelling from GB to Northern the transition before they bring forward something, and Ireland were to be considered as being “at risk” of they do so with less than 24 hours’ notice of what it will onward transport to the EU, a patently absurd and actually entail. What a complete and utter embarrassment. obstructionist position, so I heartily welcome this last- Government Members are the ones who tell us that this minute change of heart. is the place where power should lie, yet they are the ones 921 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 922 who treat it with more contempt than anyone else. If I pleased to see that we are closing another loophole in was not so disappointed, I would laugh at their sheer this way, after things like the digital services tax and the hypocrisy. diverted profits tax. I do not think any Government in To turn to the Bill—I am very mindful of time—the history have done more to clamp down on tax avoidance hon. Member for South Ribble (Katherine Fletcher) than this Government, quite rightly. was right to highlight one of the good elements of the I would like to ask a couple of questions about these Bill, in relation to online VAT. We should all support provisions. As I asked in my intervention, why is the that, particularly at this moment in time, given the figure £135? I realise this is to do with the changes in challenges that we are all seeing on our high street. We Northern Ireland to do with our leaving the European need to see a level playing field, and if we can bring that Union and the provisions in EU law for this, but why is level playing field about, we should be willing to do it. I it £135? Many products sold on the internet are also hope, however, that the Government will continue to go sold by UK domestic sellers who have to charge VAT, further and revisit the issue of the digital services tax, but above £135 overseas sellers may not have to, so this where they have the powers to make further inroads is another loophole that needs closing. I am not sure why, into levelling that playing field. for example, someone could buy a watch from abroad Youwill be unsurprised to learn, Mr Deputy Speaker, that might be £500 or £1,000 and the same loophole with just 60 seconds to go, that my agreement with the would apply. Government ends there, for four simple reasons that I Similarly, this applies only to goods, not services. will cover quickly. The first one is this: England voted to Many services are now sold online from abroad, such as leave and England will leave. Wales voted to leave and legal services, accountancy services, IT developer services— Wales will leave. Northern Ireland voted to remain for example, people can recruit developers from abroad and Northern Ireland is going to get the best of both through platforms such as Elance—and UK providers worlds; it is going to get access to the EU market while would have to charge VAT,but overseas providers potentially simultaneously remaining in the United Kingdom. And would not, so I wonder whether we can look at that. what of Scotland? What do we get? Scotland was told However, in the round, I am very supportive of these that we should stay in the United Kingdom in order to changes. I welcome them, and I certainly will be voting lead the United Kingdom—lead, don’t leave. We wanted for them, if it comes to that, later today. the same access as Northern Ireland. We put forward numerous proposals, yet time after time, this UK 4.52 pm Government completely ignored our views and desires Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): I am pleased in that respect. That all adds up, and it adds up in the to be a Northern Ireland voice in this very important minds of the very people this UK Government are debate. Obviously, this is a different type of speech from going to have to rely upon the next time we go to the the one I was envisaging making earlier this week, and polls on our independence. I do welcome that progress—not least that we are, I hope, moving beyond part 5 of the United Kingdom 4.49 pm Internal Market Bill and the potential notwithstanding Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): At least clause in this legislation, although of course we do remain I and the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen vigilant in that regard. Flynn) agree on a level playing field for business, and I I would welcome confirmation from the Minister, not want to concentrate my comments on that area. There least given that we have had very little time to scrutinise is no question, for the best deal for consumers on prices the detail, that the current version of this Bill is entirely and service, but that we need a fair and level playing consistent with the Northern Ireland protocol. It is field for businesses. That makes the market more worth recalling why we have to do that and why there is competitive, which drives down prices and drives up such a protocol. It arises from the decision of the UK service. It is absolutely where this Government should not to have a fresh customs union with the EU post focus, and I am pleased to see that they are doing so in Brexit. That prompts the question of where the line is this legislation. going to be drawn on the map between the UK’s customs I am a big fan of VAT’s part in the collection of union and the EU. The protocol essentially sees a taxation. It is much more difficult to avoid than other situation whereby Northern Ireland remains part of the taxes and much easier to collect. It is not a regressive single market for goods, but remains part of the UK’s tax, and I think we should try to focus on indirect taxes customs territory. Crucially, however, the EU customs as we reform taxes in the future and simplify the tax system. code is to be applied down the Irish sea; hence the nature As this closes a loophole, there is actually another area of this Bill. where we lose such a fair and level playing field, and Just to correct something that was said earlier, the that is the threshold for VAT registration. Some businesses withdrawal agreement and the protocol, which were are slightly below that and gain an advantage over others signed up to by this Prime Minister, had the starting that are slightly above it. That is perhaps a conversation point that all goods moving into Northern Ireland were we should have another day. potentially at risk. That was what was said in the On part 1 of schedule 3 to the Bill, I very much protocol, and I do welcome the progress that has been welcome the changed emphasis on online marketplaces made in trying to find a way through this and that that in the collection of VAT duty. I understand from reports is not going to be the case in practice. that when the changes were made in 2016, we collected Some people may say that it was only the EU that about £500 million, although I am not sure what period was threatening a border in Ireland. Of course, the EU that accounted for. I would be interested to hear from does have the right to protect the integrity of its single the Exchequer Secretary how much she thinks these market and customs union, but I think we are being too changes will actually bring in for the Exchequer. I am complacent about the UK’s own obligations in that 923 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 924

[Stephen Farry] maintain the peace that has been built there over generations, and that we maintain the integrity of the communities regard. If, in the event of no deal, the back gate was left within Northern Ireland. open, so to speak, there would be a requirement under Let me turn to the technicalities of the Bill. My hon. WTO rules for the UK to adopt the exact same posture Friends the Members for South Ribble (Katherine Fletcher) that it has on the island of Ireland with the rest of the and for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) world. I am not sure that is a line that it would want to touched on the tax element, particularly VAT. As we go down, particularly given the whole range of threats have heard, schedule 3 finally ensures that our high that are out there. street retailers can have the level playing field that they There are a range of issues still to be addressed desperately need. As I touched on in my contribution regarding the wider context of the Bill—in particular, yesterday, this has been a horrendous year for our high the achievement of a zero-tariff, zero-quota deal. Even street retailers, with all the uncertainty and difficulties with that, rules of origin will still be an issue. But if that they have come through, so ensuring that they are there is no free trade agreement, we are back to the issue on a level playing field with online retailers and are able of goods at risk. Although we have the prospect of the to obtain those benefits—and, equally, ensuring that authorised economic operator model—we await more the tax revenue that we have lost out on so far can be details of that—it is not going to cover everyone. For put into our vital public services, which have stepped up example, it is not going to cover small retailers and it to protect us and our constituents during this time—is may not cover the online issue. There is also the question absolutely crucial. I welcome that part of the Bill. of what happens if that measure is not renewed in a few I am extremely conscious of time, so I will round off years’time, as well as the issue around necessary resources. my comments. Ministers have been given quite a degree Looking the other way, I have already raised in my of discretion under the words in the Bill, both in some intervention on the Minister the issue of qualifying goods of the definitions, and in some of the abilities that they and how we can tackle avoidance. will have.My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) touched yesterday on the point that Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I call Shaun Ministers have to realise the potential of what they can Bailey; please resume your seat no later than 5 pm. do through this Bill. I implore my hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench to realise the potential in some of the abilities and powers that they have in this Bill, and to 4.55 pm ensure that they get this right as we move forward—because Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con): It is a we will move forward into 2021, and we have to ensure pleasure to contribute to this debate. It has certainly that, as we implement these measures, we do the best by been a wide-ranging and interesting one, on both sides all traders and all businesses operating within our United of the House. Kingdom. Trade is among the most efficient ways to ensure that peace can be maintained between the communities in 4.59 pm Northern Ireland as a whole, and to maintain the Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): prosperity of Northern Ireland and the rest of the United I thank everybody who has contributed to this short Kingdom. I believe that this Bill secures that. In creating debate. To pick out a few, the hon. Member for Stone the legal framework for customs, VAT and excise charges, (Sir William Cash) told us that he was reserving the Bill will make a real and positive impact on trade his judgment on some of these measures, particularly in both Northern Ireland and the rest of the United the Government’s decision not to proceed with the Kingdom, including in my communities in Wednesbury, “notwithstanding”clauses. The hon. Member for Glasgow Oldbury and Tipton. It will have a sizeable effect, given Central (Alison Thewliss) talked about hidden customs that 10% of England’s exports are to other parts of the charges and described parts of the Government’sapproach United Kingdom, and particularly to Northern Ireland, as“absolutemince”.Therighthon.MemberforWokingham with Northern Ireland external purchases from Great (John Redwood) spoke about the dual taxation regime, Britain coming in at around £14 billion. In specifying which we will return to in the Committee stage shortly that customs charges will apply to certain goods only if to follow. My hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield they are at risk of moving into the EU, the Bill provides (Mr Perkins) spoke about the phenomenon of people greater certainty and will ensure that our businesses can saying that it is never a proper Brexit, no matter what have the brighter future that they are looking for. Equally, kind of Brexit it is. The hon. Member for North Down the Bill will ensure that businesses across the United (Stephen Farry) gave us a very welcome Northern Ireland Kingdom can benefit from a continual flow of goods voice on these issues. between the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, What this Bill does, first and foremost, is to put in and that Northern Ireland exports and imports do not place a framework for the monitoring, taxation and have to suffer from barriers to trade. movement of goods that was not there in the past. It is quite right that our red line in this Bill has been However much the Government try to duck that issue—to the ability to set our own customs laws and excise pretend that everything is going to carry on as normal—the duties. We are going to see the benefit of that in January, new regime is there for everybody to see in the clauses of with the streamlining of some 6,000 tariff lines and the the Bill and the regulations to follow. Business to and removal of tariffs on some £30 billion of imports entering from Northern Ireland will be conducted on a more supply chains, particularly within manufacturing, which monitored, differently taxed and significantly more is a key industry for areas like mine in the Black bureaucratic basis than before. There is simply no escaping Country. We are going to do that while ensuring that that and no hiding from it, and it would be better if the there is no hard border on the island of Ireland, that we Government acknowledged this as what they have agreed. 925 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 926

My first question to the Minister is: do the Government the UK and the EU? If they are, are such provisions really expect to implement everything in this Bill and to likely to be part of any deal which, if agreed, would then secure compliance from businesses both in Northern mean that the clause was not needed? Ireland and in the rest of the UK on all these measures These measures are likely to pass the House quite by 1 January? Is that the Government’s realistic goal? quickly tonight, but the real action at the moment is of The Bill, of course, could have been very different. It course not here, but elsewhere. As we debate this Bill, could have contained clauses setting aside parts of the we still do not know whether there will be a free trade Northern Ireland protocol. The Government did look agreement reached. After four years, the public, companies ready to double down on the course of action that they and their staff do not know what they will be facing in had embarked on in the UK Internal Market Bill, but January, and the root of that decision remains what it thanks to yesterday’s statement by the Chancellor of has always been: this choice between sovereignty and the Duchy of Lancaster and his counterpart, Mr Šefcˇovicˇ, market access. the Government have announced that they will not The story of the past four years has been the Government proceed with such clauses. We can now look forward to moving more and more towards the sovereignty side of the Government moving amendments in the other place that choice. They may say that is the remorseless logic to delete that which they insisted was necessary in this of Brexit, but no one should doubt the significance, House on Monday evening. It is one thing to play because what it means is that, for the first time in ping-pong with the House of Lords, but quite another history, we have a Government and a process where to play ping-pong with yourself. Once again, the questions of investment, of people’s prosperity and of Government’s MPs who valiantly defended the line on their living standards have been progressively relegated Monday now have a very different line to advance to a more and more distant second place. We will see the before Thursday. This is not the first time this has results of that choice over the coming months. Perhaps happened, and I should guess it will not be the last. If I after tonight’s dinner in Brussels, we might even be a bit was a Government Back Bencher, I would be becoming clearer about the results in the days to come, but in the a little bit more wary of following the line from No. 10 end what has been described as a negotiation is, in fact, on a number of issues. a choice. The Government have made their choice, and In all the twists and turns that got us here, Ministers we will see the effect in the months to come. might think that they have acted tough, but threatening to legislate to set aside parts of an international agreement 5.6 pm that the Government signed only a year ago has only TheExchequerSecretarytotheTreasury(KemiBadenoch): done damage to the country’sreputation. The Government It is a privilege to close this debate on behalf of the have not communicated toughness; all they have Government, and I thank Members from all parts of the communicated is that they cannot be trusted. As we House for their thoughtful and varied contributions. embark on a process of trying to negotiate new free At the end of this month, the transition period will trade deals around the world, what a signal to send and end. As my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary what a starting point: do a deal with the Government pointed out at the beginning of today’s debate, we have who threatened to ditch parts of the last one that we a great responsibility to be ready for this event. The measures signed. That was not clever negotiating tactics and it contained in the Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill was not toughness—it was reckless, and, I am afraid, it will play an important part in the preparations. was revealing about the character of the Government. Let me take this opportunity to thank Opposition The Bill sets out the new customs regime for so-called Members for their constructive and collegiate approach at-risk goods moving to and from Northern Ireland and throughout the passage of this Bill, despite their evident the rest of the UK. Although it empowers Ministers to reservations, and in that same spirit I will address some levy the necessary duties, there is still much that, as of the points raised in today’s debate. clause 1 says, will have to be clarified in new regulations The Bill is an essential part of our preparations for from the Treasury. We only have 22 days to go. When the end of the transition period. It takes forward important will we see these new regulations? When will businesses changestoourtaxsystemtosupportthesmoothcontinuation in Northern Ireland, or those anywhere else in the of business across the UK. It contains six measures. country that send goods to Northern Ireland, know Three relate to the implementation of the Northern exactly what the new regime will be? Does the Minister Ireland protocol and three implement wider changes to really think that this is a proper way to do this, more the tax system, which are needed before 1 January. Most than four years after the referendum and just three importantly, it will ensure that we meet our commitments weeks before the end of the transition period? to Northern Ireland, including on unfettered access and Similar phrasing is used in clause 2 in relation to those commitments as set out in the Northern Ireland goods moving from Northern Ireland to the rest of the protocol. Taken together,the measures form an important UK, and the same point applies: when will businesses part of our preparations as we resume our place as a know what is happening? On the VAT regime in clause 3, fully sovereign trading nation. will the Minister set out how the EU’s VAT regime, as it Now that we have further clarity on the outcome of applies to Northern Ireland, will interplay with the the Joint Committee negotiations, it is vital that the UK’s VAT regime—the question raised by the right provisions are in place before the end of the transition hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood)? Similarly, period to provide that certainty. The Bill’s passage is on excise duties, how will the measures in clause 4, necessarily rapid, but it will allow for these important which apply to everything from spirits and beer to changes to be implemented on time. The right hon. tobacco products, differ from current arrangements? Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) Are the insurance premium tax changes thought necessary asked if we believed it can be done, and my answer is in the event of no mutual assistance provisions between yes, of course. The UK Government will take forward a 927 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 928

[] not disrupted on the island of Ireland, and to allow us to meet our commitments under the Belfast/Good Friday pragmatic approach that draws upon available flexibilities agreement. But, as I said, HMRC will continue to be to implement the protocol without causing undue disruption the tax authority for the whole of the UK. Businesses to lives and livelihoods. will continue to have a single UK VAT number, issued The Government are committed to supporting business. by HMRC, and they will submit only one UK VAT At the centre of the package is the free-to-use trader return to account for VAT on all supplies of goods and support service, which will support business when moving services. goods into Northern Ireland, educating traders on what My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William the protocol means for them and completing customs Cash) asked about the current negotiations. Just to safety and security declarations on their behalf. That is remind him and reiterate to the House,the UK Government working. Since the launch of the registration portal in set out on 17 September that Parliament would be September, more than 18,000 businesses have signed up asked to support the use of provisions such as clause 45 for support from the trader support service. of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill and any Turning to Members’ comments, the hon. Member similar subsequent provisions in a Finance Bill. These for North Down (Stephen Farry) requested confirmation clauses were introduced as reasonable steps to create a that the UK meets its obligations. The powers in the Bill safety net, so that the Government would always be able allow us to implement the Northern Ireland protocol in to deliver on their commitments to the people of Northern a way that is consistent with our obligations, and I Ireland in the event that a negotiated outcome could appreciate his broader supportive statements. My hon. not be reached in the Joint Committee. However, as we Friends the Members for South Ribble (Katherine Fletcher) all now know, following intensive and constructive work and for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), over the past weeks by the UK and EU, we now have an among others, rightly referred to our closing of the agreement in principle on all issues in relation to the VAT loophole in clause 7 and schedule 3. Low-value protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland. As we have consignment relief is subject to widespread abuse and mutually agreed solutions, the UK can now withdraw contributes to trade distortion. It disadvantages UK clauses 44, 45 and 47 of the UKIM Bill and not introduce high street businesses that are required to charge VAT any similar provisions in this taxation Bill. where overseas businesses are not, either for legitimate reasons or through abuse, and removing the relief will MrMcFadden:Onthatpointaboutthe“notwithstanding” bring overseas sellers on to an equal footing with UK clauses, can the Minister guarantee, given that neither businesses. the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill nor this Bill My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton has finished its passage in the House, that the Government (Kevin Hollinrake) asked why the clause applied just to will not reintroduce them at any further stage? low-value goods and whether there was an opportunity for it to apply to high-value goods as well. The reason is Kemi Badenoch: As I have just said, I am not in a that the £135 threshold aligns with the threshold for position to be talking about what is happening in the customs duty liability. Imports of goods greater than future. We have been negotiating in good faith and we £135 in value are subject to enhanced customs requirements, have an agreement in principle. I do not believe that which would negate the benefit of moving VAT away those clauses will be coming back, but as the right hon. from the border. Therefore, imports of goods greater Gentleman knows very well, the negotiations are still than that amount will remain subject to the current ongoing and we need to wait and see what the outcomes model for goods arriving from non-EU countries, where of those negotiations are. It would be quite wrong for VAT is collected at the point of importation. me or him to pre-empt anything else that will be taking My hon. Friend also asked what revenue we expected place, and we must not bind the hands of our negotiators. from this change. The Office for Budget Responsibility It is absolutely right that we all speak with one voice in has forecast that these changes will raise over £300 million this House. a year over the next five years, and £1.6 billion over the The hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) scorecard period. Approximately two thirds of that will mentioned GB and NI parcels and asked how consumers come from improving collection and tackling non- would know whether there was a customs charge. The compliance through the new VATtreatment of cross-border movement of parcels into Northern Ireland is another goods, and the final third of the revenue will come from important part of how the protocol will work in practice the removal of low-value consignment relief, which will for people in Northern Ireland. That is why the UK end widespread abuse of this relief. Government will take forward a pragmatic approach, My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham just as we have elsewhere, that draws on available flexibilities (John Redwood) asked whether the ECJ would be the to implement the protocol without causing undue ultimate arbiter for VAT and excise. The ECJ will disruption. In terms of schedule 3, she gave the example continue to have a role where EU directives apply in of the earrings from Slovenia that she had ordered. It is Northern Ireland—for example, where there are disputes worth stressing that schedule 3 deals with imports to the on how the EU rules should be interpreted. However, UK and not exports. It will ensure that UK customers the rules will continue to be policed by HMRC, which see the amount of VAT that needs to be paid at the will continue to be the tax authority for the whole of the point of sale on goods below £135. For goods between UK. He also mentioned Northern Ireland being subject Northern Ireland and GB, VAT is already charged on to two regulatory systems. Northern Ireland is and will supplies sold by a GB business to an NI customer. remain part of the UK and its VAT system. It is correct When the Northern Ireland protocol comes into effect, that the Northern Ireland protocol means that NI will Northern Ireland businesses or consumers purchasing continue to align with the EU VAT rules in respect of goods from VAT-registered businesses will see no significant goods, but not services. That is to ensure that trade is difference in costs from a VAT perspective. 929 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 9 DECEMBER 2020 930

Let me conclude by saying that tonight, this House Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill has the opportunity to give businesses in Northern Ireland and throughout the rest of the UK certainty Considered in Committee about the arrangements that will apply from 1 January next year, to strengthen the precious bonds of union [DAME ROSIE WINTERTON in the Chair] that tie this country together, and to prepare this country 5.19 pm for an even brighter future as an independent sovereign trading nation. For all those reasons, I urge all Members The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame to support the Bill. Rosie Winterton): Before I ask the Clerk to read the title Question put and agreed to. of the Bill, I should explain that in these exceptional circumstances, although the Chair of the Committee Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed would normally sit in the Clerk’s chair during Committee, to a Committee of the whole House (Order, this day). I will remain in the Speaker’s Chair in order to comply with social distancing requirements, although I will be Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I will now suspend carrying out the role not of Deputy Speaker but of the sitting for a brief period in order for both Dispatch Chairman of the Committee. Chairs of the Committee Boxes to be sanitised. should be addressed as such, rather than as Deputy Speakers. 5.15 pm I must also modify the call list slightly in the light of Sitting suspended. the selection and grouping of amendments by the Chairman of Ways and Means. I will call the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) to open the debate by moving amendment 2; we will then follow the rest of the call list as published, starting with the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash). I will call the Minister at the end to respond to the debate.

Clause 1

DUTY ON GOODS REMOVED TO NORTHERN IRELAND Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): I beg to move amendment 2, page 2, line 43, at end insert— “(4A) The Treasury must publish guidance setting out its proposed approach to the reliefs, repayments and remissions referred to in subsection (3)(b) within four working days of this section coming into force.” TheFirstDeputyChairman:Withthisitwillbeconvenient to discuss the following: Clause stand part. Amendment 3, in clause 2, page 4, line 24, at end insert— “(5) The Treasury must publish guidance setting out its proposed approach to the reliefs, repayments and remissions referred to in subsection (4)(a) within four working days of this section coming into force.” Clause 2 stand part. Clauses 3 to 4 stand part. Amendment 1, in clause 5, page 7, line 44, leave out subsection (3). This amendment is connected with NC1, which would make all substantive regulations under the Bill subject to the affirmative procedure. Clause 5 stand part. Clauses 6 to 12 stand part. New clause 1—Regulations— “Notwithstanding any other enactment, a statutory instrument containing regulations made under this Act, other than regulations made under section 11, may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of the House of Commons.” This new clause would make regulations made under the Bill (other than the commencement regulations in clause 11) subject to House of Commons affirmative procedure. New clause 2—Treasury use of powers— 931 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 9 DECEMBER 2020 932

“(1) The Treasury must, within four working days of the day “may by regulations provide” on which this Act is passed, publish a report setting out the for which goods the new duties will apply to, and make timeframe within which it will use the powers to make regulations conferred by— “provision about reliefs, repayment and remission…checks, controls (a) section 40A(2) of TCTA 2018; or administrative processes” (b) section 40B(1) and (2) of TCTA 2018; and other matters. (c) section 30A(4) of TCTA 2018; My broad point is that that is obviously a description (d) section 30B(1) and (3) of TCTA 2018; of new arrangements that are not in place right now; (e) section 30C(5) of TCTA 2018, and that is why they are being introduced in the Bill. As I (f) section 5(2) of this Act. said on Second Reading, it would be better for the Government to acknowledge that this is a new regime (2) The Treasury must publish an annual report setting out with new requirements, instead of the pretence that how it has made use of the powers referred to in subsection (1). everything will carry on exactly as it is. (3) Each report under subsection (2) must include an assessment of— As I also said on Second Reading, we only have three weeks to go. Businesses in Northern Ireland and those (a) what considerations the Treasury made when deciding to use its powers, and that do a lot of trade with Northern Ireland will be asking, “What does this mean for me? What processes (b) the impact of the regulations on individuals and businesses throughout the UK, and specifically in do I have to go through? What do I have to pay? If the Northern Ireland.” goods remain in Northern Ireland, will I be entitled to a rebate if I have paid? How will I claim that rebate? How That schedule 1 be the First schedule to the Bill. will this system work?” Those are all legitimate questions That schedule 2 be the Second schedule to the Bill. about the new regime being introduced by the Bill and That schedule 3 be the Third schedule to the Bill. the regulations enabled by it. Amendment 2 asks the That schedule 4 be the Fourth schedule to the Bill. Treasury to reach conclusions and to publish answers on these matters in the coming days. Frankly, it is Mr McFadden: As well as speaking to amendment 2, already too late to expect businesses to absorb more I will speak to amendment 3, which makes the same than 100 pages of legislation within a few weeks. But points, and say a word about new clause 2. All three have even if it is too late, we cannot afford more delay, which been tabled in the name of the Leader of the Opposition is why our amendment calls for the publication of and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends. guidance on this within a few days of the Bill coming into force. Clause 1 sets out the new customs regime that will apply to goods moving between Great Britain and I should stress that nothing in this amendment alters Northern Ireland—specifically those that are deemed the regime that the Government are trying to bring in. to be at risk of entering the EU single market. The Everything in the amendment is fully in line with the Northern Ireland protocol that the Government have Northern Ireland protocol and with the commitments signed up to requires such a regime as a result of their that the Government have made as part of that. We want decision to leave the single market and the customs to provide clarity for businesses as soon as possible, union. It will mean a system of paying customs duties rather than leaving open-ended the time for these regulations for those who move such goods. to be published. As yet, none of us knows whether a deal will be In response to my question at the end of the Second agreed, although we know that an important dinner is Reading debate, the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury taking place in Brussels tonight. However, we welcome said with confidence that she was sure this could all be the announcement of a trusted trader scheme today, done by 1 January. I hope she is right and that any although it comes very late in the day. That scheme will scepticism that all these arrangements will be completed remove some of the possible tariffs on goods that move in the three weeks between now and 1 January is unfounded. from Great Britain to Northern Ireland in the event of Let us hope that she is right. The amendment asks for a no-deal Brexit, but for other goods we are clear that the Government to outline precisely how these duties we do not want to see additional costs for businesses and tariffs, if they are necessary,will be rebated. Businesses and communities in Northern Ireland. will be asking that question and, quite reasonably, they The House should note that Northern Ireland consumers will want an answer. have, on average, about half the discretionary income of Will businesses be required to pay up front and then consumers in the rest of the United Kingdom; the long be reimbursed by HMRC, as envisaged in the Northern and the short of it is that they simply cannot afford such Ireland protocol? Is that what the Government have in additional trade tariffs on goods. There therefore needs mind? If so, the Minister should know that there are to be a system for at-risk goods that do not leave fears that such a rebate system could be hugely complex. Northern Ireland, in line with the agreement that Northern Indeed, some fear that it is not fully built, but we are Ireland remains part of the UK’s customs territory and told that it will all be ready for 1 January. These are vital that customs duties should not apply to goods that questions. As it stands, the Bill does not fully answer travel between Great Britain and Northern Ireland if them, nor does it set out a timeframe in which they will Northern Ireland is their end destination. be answered, which is why we have tabled amendments 2 The protocol and the arrangements agreed yesterday and 3 to the Bill. by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and his Finally, new clause 2 is an attempt to give both counterpart create new requirements for businesses to Parliament and the public some timetable—some road be set out in regulations. Clause 1 is specific about that, map—for the blizzard of regulations that are enabled for example in new section 40B of the Taxation (Cross- by the Bill and to secure a report on their impact in the border Trade) Act 2018, which states that the Treasury future. As I said, this is a new regime. The Bill legislates 933 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 934 for something that we have not had to do before in the to know how they will be able to move these goods United Kingdom, and we should at least have the courtesy through different territories, as they really should not of reporting on how it is operating in the future. New be left hanging about for any length of time; they need clause 2 asks for both a timetable of the regulations and to be moved quickly to where they are processed. We a report on how the new regime has operated. These are do not know whether they would fall under what the completely reasonable amendments. I hope that, in a Government have termed “at risk goods”. It is not spirit of generosity, the Government will find it within surprising that businesses are tearing their hair out with themselves to accept them, and I look forward to hearing this shambles of a Government, because they do not the Financial Secretary to the Treasury wind up the debate. know whether they will be able to continue with their business come the turn of the year. The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame There is also the cost and the red tape, whether it is Rosie Winterton): Sir William Cash is not here, so we go the 265 million customs forms that will need to be filled to Alison Thewliss. out compared with the 54 million now, or whether it is the issue of rebates and the processing of fees and Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): I am very money. This is the end of the transition period, but we sorry to hear that the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William do not know what we are transitioning to. We certainly Cash) is not here, because I am sure that there is so know what we had and what we will not have any more: much more that he could have added to this debate that free and unfettered access to a huge market in Europe. he has not already said. We do know that we are losing that, but we do not yet know what the Government’s plans are. The First Deputy Chairman: He may have withdrawn Despite the Government’s attempts to reassure us, but I have not been told, so that may explain it. concerns remain. Aodhán Connolly of the Northern Ireland Retail Consortium, while acknowledging the 5.30 pm progress that has been made, said of the delays: Alison Thewliss: That is absolutely fine. I wish to “We are just 22 days out and retailers are still unsure about the speak to the amendments in my name and the names of exact processes needed to move food to Northern Ireland. Therefore, my hon. Friends. the Government needs to assure them how this will be done As I outlined on Second Reading, I have real concerns without additional bureaucracy.” about the scrutiny aspects of the Bill. It is a thick and There are real concerns about the cost and the choice of substantial Bill that gives substantial powers to the UK food that people of Northern Ireland will have if we do Government to move things through this House under not get this right. the negative procedure, which gives very little opportunity The point that I made earlier about customs charges for us or anybody else to scrutinise their proposals. We and duties was reflected in an item on RTÉ at about wish to see the proposals come under the affirmative 2.30 this afternoon. It said that customers in Ireland procedure wherever possible, to allow extra scrutiny of will be faced with VAT and customs duty from 1 January the Government. if buying goods from the UK worth over ¤22. That is As I said, I am very concerned about the letter that significantly lower than the levels that were spoken the Minister sent to Members. It talks about a huge about earlier. It was said that the Irish Revenue has no range of duties that the Government are creating but way of knowing whether consumers will continue to that, at this moment, they do not intend to use. I buy from the UK when additional charges apply. I ask question why they are creating such duties if they do the Minister to consider this and to do some studies on not intend to use them. At some stage perhaps they will whether these additional charges will have an impact on use them, so we need a mechanism to scrutinise them. It people in this country who make good-quality goods is unfortunate, but perhaps not surprising, that the and export them to Ireland. A total of 70% goes to Government see taking back control as bringing it back Ireland, and we need to have some certainty from the from bureaucrats in Brussels to give it to bureaucrats in Government about the long-term impact. Whitehall, bypassing this place altogether. It should The scrutiny mechanisms that we suggest give us have been an opportunity for this place to get more ample opportunity to do that at every stage of this powers to scrutinise such duties, but no; it all goes to process, not just today while we are considering this Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs or to the Treasury, Bill, and then putting it in a box and leaving it, but on and very little comes here or indeed to the Committees an ongoing basis. This Government definitely need to of this House. There should have been an opportunity be held to account. to look at the new taxation structures that we are bringing in here and that we have responsibility for in The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame this House, but the Committees of this House will not Rosie Winterton): I believe that the Members who were get the opportunity to scrutinise these measures either. I numbers five to 11 on the call list spoke in the earlier know that some have suggested that an additional debate and have withdrawn from this one, which means Committee would allow that scrutiny to be made. that we go straight to Andrew Griffith. I very much support what the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) said and Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): the questions he asked. Weare dealing with complex supply It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, chains when we talk about the movement of food, Dame Rosie. chemicals and manufactured goods. In my constituency I welcome this set of pragmatic measures. The Bill is and in the constituencies of some of my colleagues, for a building block on the way to regaining our national example, we have manufacturers of leather, who move self-determination in this very important area. I will raw hides from Ireland to the west of Scotland. They need oppose the amendment, although not on the principle— 935 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 936

[Andrew Griffith] The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) said that somehow the Government greater scrutiny and giving business greater certainty were pretending there was no change. Of course, he are things that I hope that those on both sides of the then went on to say that nothing has changed. We are House can support. However, we should recognise that not pretending anything. We acknowledge that there is we are in a fast-moving environment. The Treasury change and that is specifically why we have used the team have been working incredibly intensively in the language we have of making the changes as easy and as context of the pandemic and I think it is unfair to frictionless as possible for all parties concerned. impose on them a specific timeframe when I know they The right hon. Gentleman raises concerns and questions will—perhaps the Minister will address this point—use about Northern Ireland. I remind him that the Trader their very best endeavours to give the very greatest Support Service, which was launched on 28 September, amount of certainty as quickly as possible. has 18,000 subscribers already. He asks us to publish I follow the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison guidance. I can tell him that guidance has been published Thewliss), who I have to say takes something of an already, on 26 October. 18th-century approach to customs, borders, forms and The hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) tariffs. The reality is that, as my right hon. Friend the saw Brexit—rather helpfully—as an opportunity to return Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) said earlier, powers to Parliament. How right she was. That is why I we are in an age of online forms and digital electronic am a supporter of the United Kingdom of Great Britain surveillance. Any good that passes across any internal and Northern Ireland, and of the Parliament that stands or external border is tracked through a multiplicity of at its centre. My hon. Friend the Member for Arundel different technologies. I made the observation to the and South Downs (Andrew Griffith) rightly said that it hon. Lady that of course when one introduces any should be for the Bill to make matters as easy as customs border—this is one reason why Government possible. I agree with that. He pointed to the absolute Members are so keen to keep our United Kingdom game-changer in clause 7. I agree with that too. together—there is an added level of complexity, but we should not overstate the complexity or understate the The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame ability of business to innovate and deal with that. Rosie Winterton): I believe the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East may wish to withdraw his Alison Thewliss: I thank the hon. Gentleman for amendment. allowing an intervention. Is he aware that we were told in the Treasury Committee that the UK could have Mr McFadden: I point out to the Minister that he adopted the French customs system, which was up and said guidance was published in October; he cannot be running before ours? Ours is not ready, as the Business, referring to the guidance referred to in clauses 1 and 2, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee heard yesterday. which talks about the regulations under the Bill. However, Technological solutions exist, but they do not exist in on the basis of the whole debate, we will not press the the UK, and we do not have them up and running to get amendment to a vote tonight, so I beg to ask leave to this moving by the turn of the year. withdraw the amendment. Andrew Griffith: I beg to differ with the hon. Lady. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. There will be different systems for different territories, Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill. but on the business side of things there is already Clauses 2 to 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill. sophisticated tracking of stock, sales and data, which : 1, in clause 5, page 7, line 44, leave can be used to feed into accounting systems. Amendment proposed out subsection (3).—(Alison Thewliss.) What I really want to do is to celebrate—I hope that This amendment is connected with NC1, which would make all those on both sides of the House can do that—the substantive regulations under the Bill subject to the affirmative absolute game-changer that is contained within clause 7 procedure. to crack down on the leakage of the important tax Question put, That the amendment be made. revenues that fund our valued public services, and, most importantly, to create a level playing field for the nation’s The Committee divided: Ayes 257, Noes 350. small and online retailers. That has needed to be addressed Division No. 182] [5.41 pm for far too long. I welcome the Minister to his place and what clause 7 will do for the enterprising small businesses AYES of our nation. Abbott, rh Ms Diane Black, Mhairi The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): Abrahams, Debbie Blackford, rh Ian Dame Rosie, what a delight it is to see you in the Chair, Ali, Rushanara Blackman, Kirsty Ali, Tahir Blake, Olivia metaphorically if not actually. Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Blomfield, Paul It is a measure of the wide gulf between the House’s Amesbury, Mike Bonnar, Steven professed intentions and its actual activities that we are Anderson, Fleur Brabin, Tracy about to wind up within a very few minutes, and nothing Antoniazzi, Tonia Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben like to time, the scrutiny of the Bill in Committee. I Ashworth, Jonathan Brennan, Kevin thank those who have spoken. Let me do service on my Bardell, Hannah Brock, Deidre part by keeping my remarks brief, although I will say Barker, Paula Brown, Alan that nothing could have surprised me more than that Beckett, rh Margaret Brown, Ms Lyn my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Begum, Apsana Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Cash) will not be taking the opportunity to make a Benn, rh Hilary Buck, Ms Karen trivial two-hour speech. Betts, Mr Clive Burgon, Richard 937 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 938

Butler, Dawn Greenwood, Margaret Mishra, Navendu Sheerman, Mr Barry Byrne, Ian Griffith, Nia Monaghan, Carol Sheppard, Tommy Byrne, rh Liam Gwynne, Andrew Moran, Layla Siddiq, Tulip Cadbury, Ruth Haigh, Louise Morden, Jessica Slaughter, Andy Callaghan, Amy Hamilton, Fabian Morgan, Stephen Smith, Alyn Cameron, Dr Lisa Hanna, Claire Morris, Grahame Smith, Cat Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hanvey, Neale Murray, Ian Smith, Jeff Carden, Dan Hardy, Emma Murray, James Smith, Nick Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nandy, Lisa Smyth, Karin Chamberlain, Wendy Harris, Carolyn Newlands, Gavin Spellar, rh John Champion, Sarah Hayes, Helen Nichols, Charlotte Starmer, rh Keir Chapman, Douglas Hendrick, Sir Mark Nicolson, John Stephens, Chris Charalambous, Bambos Hendry, Drew Norris, Alex Stevens, Jo Cherry, Joanna Hill, Mike O’Hara, Brendan Stone, Jamie Clark, Feryal Hillier, Meg Olney, Sarah Streeting, Wes Cooper, Daisy Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Onwurah, Chi Stringer, Graham Cooper, Rosie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Oppong-Asare, Abena Sultana, Zarah Cooper, rh Yvette Hollern, Kate Osamor, Kate Tami, rh Mark Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hopkins, Rachel Osborne, Kate Tarry, Sam Cowan, Ronnie Hosie, Stewart Oswald, Kirsten Thewliss, Alison Coyle, Neil Howarth, rh Sir George Owatemi, Taiwo Thomas, Gareth Crawley, Angela Huq, Dr Rupa Owen, Sarah Thornberry, rh Emily Creasy, Stella Hussain, Imran Peacock, Stephanie Timms, rh Stephen Cruddas, Jon Jardine, Christine Pennycook, Matthew Trickett, Jon Cryer, John Jarvis, Dan Perkins, Mr Toby Turner, Karl Cummins, Judith Johnson, Dame Diana Phillips, Jess Twist, Liz Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Kim Phillipson, Bridget Webbe, Claudia Daby, Janet Jones, Darren Pollard, Luke West, Catherine Davey, rh Ed Jones, Gerald Powell, Lucy Western, Matt David, Wayne Jones, rh Mr Kevan Qureshi, Yasmin Whitehead, Dr Alan Davies, Geraint Jones, Ruth Rayner, Angela Whitford, Dr Philippa Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Sarah Reed, Steve Whitley, Mick Day, Martyn Kane, Mike Rees, Christina Whittome, Nadia De Cordova, Marsha Keeley, Barbara Reeves, Ellie Williams, Hywel Debbonaire, Thangam Kendall, Liz Reeves, Rachel Wilson, Munira Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Khan, Afzal Reynolds, Jonathan Winter, Beth Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kinnock, Stephen Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Wishart, Pete Dodds, Anneliese Kyle, Peter Rimmer, Ms Marie Yasin, Mohammad Doogan, Dave Lake, Ben Rodda, Matt Zeichner, Daniel Dorans, Allan Lammy, rh Mr David Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Doughty, Stephen Lavery, Ian Saville Roberts, rh Liz Tellers for the Ayes: Dowd, Peter Law, Chris Shah, Naz Owen Thompson and Dromey, Jack Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Sharma, Mr Virendra Richard Thomson Duffield, Rosie Lewis, Clive Eagle, Ms Angela Linden, David NOES Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Tony Eastwood, Colum Long Bailey, Rebecca Adams, Nigel Berry, rh Jake Edwards, Jonathan Lucas, Caroline Afolami, Bim Bhatti, Saqib Efford, Clive Lynch, Holly Ahmad Khan, Imran Blackman, Bob Elmore, Chris MacAskill, Kenny Aiken, Nickie Blunt, Crispin Eshalomi, Florence MacNeil, Angus Brendan Aldous, Peter Bone, Mr Peter Esterson, Bill Madders, Justin Amess, Sir David Bowie, Andrew Evans, Chris Mahmood, Mr Khalid Anderson, Stuart Bradley, Ben Farron, Tim Mahmood, Shabana Andrew, Stuart Bradley, rh Karen Farry, Stephen Malhotra, Seema Ansell, Caroline Brady, Sir Graham Fellows, Marion Maskell, Rachael Argar, Edward Braverman, rh Suella Ferrier, Margaret Mc Nally, John Atherton, Sarah Brereton, Jack Fletcher, Colleen McCarthy, Kerry Atkins, Victoria Bridgen, Andrew Flynn, Stephen McDonagh, Siobhain Bacon, Gareth Bristow, Paul Fovargue, Yvonne McDonald, Andy Bacon, Mr Richard Britcliffe, Sara Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Badenoch, Kemi Brokenshire, rh James Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Stuart C. Bailey, Shaun Browne, Anthony Furniss, Gill McDonnell, rh John Baillie, Siobhan Bruce, Fiona Gardiner, Barry McFadden, rh Mr Pat Baker, Duncan Buchan, Felicity Gibson, Patricia McGinn, Conor Baker, Mr Steve Buckland, rh Robert Gill, Preet Kaur McGovern, Alison Baldwin, Harriett Burghart, Alex Glindon, Mary McKinnell, Catherine Barclay, rh Steve Burns, rh Conor Grady, Patrick McLaughlin, Anne Baron, Mr John Butler, Rob Grant, Peter McMahon, Jim Baynes, Simon Cairns, rh Alun Gray, Neil McMorrin, Anna Bell, Aaron Carter, Andy Green, Kate Mearns, Ian Benton, Scott Cartlidge, James Greenwood, Lilian Miliband, rh Edward Beresford, Sir Paul Cash, Sir William 939 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill9 DECEMBER 2020 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 940

Cates, Miriam Ghani, Ms Nusrat Largan, Robert Quince, Will Caulfield, Maria Gibb, rh Nick Latham, Mrs Pauline Raab, rh Dominic Chalk, Alex Gibson, Peter Leadsom, rh Andrea Randall, Tom Chishti, Rehman Gideon, Jo Leigh, rh Sir Edward Redwood, rh John Churchill, Jo Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Levy, Ian Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Clark, rh Greg Girvan, Paul Lewer, Andrew Richards, Nicola Clarke, Mr Simon Glen, John Lewis, rh Brandon Richardson, Angela Clarke, Theo Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Roberts, Rob Clarke-Smith, Brendan Gove, rh Michael Loder, Chris Robertson, Mr Laurence Clarkson, Chris Graham, Richard Logan, Mark Robinson, Mary Cleverly, rh James Grant, Mrs Helen Longhi, Marco Rosindell, Andrew Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Grayling, rh Chris Lopez, Julia Ross, Douglas Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Green, Chris Lopresti, Jack Rowley, Lee Colburn, Elliot Green, rh Damian Lord, Mr Jonathan Russell, Dean Collins, Damian Griffith, Andrew Loughton, Tim Rutley, David Costa, Alberto Griffiths, Kate Mackinlay, Craig Sambrook, Gary Courts, Robert Grundy, James Mackrory, Cherilyn Saxby, Selaine Coutinho, Claire Gullis, Jonathan Maclean, Rachel Scully, Paul Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Halfon, rh Robert Mak, Alan Seely, Bob Crabb, rh Stephen Hall, Luke Malthouse, Kit Selous, Andrew Crosbie, Virginia Hammond, Stephen Mangnall, Anthony Shannon, Jim Crouch, Tracey Hancock, rh Matt Mann, Scott Shapps, rh Grant Daly, James Hands, rh Greg Marson, Julie Sharma, rh Alok Davies, David T. C. Harper, rh Mr Mark Mayhew, Jerome Shelbrooke, rh Alec Davies, Gareth Harris, Rebecca Maynard, Paul Simmonds, David Davies, Dr James Harrison, Trudy McCartney, Jason Skidmore, rh Chris Davies, Mims Hart, Sally-Ann McCartney, Karl Smith, Chloe Davies, Philip Hart, rh Simon McPartland, Stephen Smith, Greg Davis, rh Mr David Hayes, rh Sir John McVey, rh Esther Smith, Henry Davison, Dehenna Heald, rh Sir Oliver Menzies, Mark Smith, Royston Dinenage, Caroline Heappey, James Mercer, Johnny Solloway, Amanda Dines, Miss Sarah Heaton-Harris, Chris Merriman, Huw Spencer, Dr Ben Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Henderson, Gordon Metcalfe, Stephen Stafford, Alexander Docherty, Leo Henry, Darren Millar, Robin Stephenson, Andrew Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Higginbotham, Antony Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stevenson, Jane Donelan, Michelle Hinds, rh Damian Milling, rh Amanda Stevenson, John Dorries, Ms Nadine Hoare, Simon Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob Double, Steve Holden, Mr Richard Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Iain Dowden, rh Oliver Hollinrake, Kevin Mohindra, Mr Gagan Streeter, Sir Gary Doyle-Price, Jackie Hollobone, Mr Philip Moore, Damien Stride, rh Mel Drax, Richard Holloway, Adam Moore, Robbie Stuart, Graham Drummond, Mrs Flick Holmes, Paul Morris, Anne Marie Sturdy, Julian Duddridge, James Howell, John Morris, David Sunderland, James Duguid, David Howell, Paul Morris, James Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Huddleston, Nigel Morrissey, Joy Syms, Sir Robert Dunne, rh Philip Hudson, Dr Neil Morton, Wendy Thomas, Derek Eastwood, Mark Hunt, Jane Mullan, Dr Kieran Throup, Maggie Edwards, Ruth Hunt, rh Jeremy Mumby-Croft, Holly Timpson, Edward Ellis, rh Michael Hunt, Tom Mundell, rh David Tolhurst, Kelly Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jack, rh Mr Alister Murray, Mrs Sheryll Tomlinson, Justin Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Michael Eustice, rh George Jenkin, Sir Bernard Neill, Sir Robert Tracey, Craig Evans, Dr Luke Jenkinson, Mark Nici, Lia Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Evennett, rh Sir David Jenkyns, Andrea Nokes, rh Caroline Trott, Laura Everitt, Ben Jenrick, rh Robert Norman, rh Jesse Truss, rh Elizabeth Fabricant, Michael Johnson, rh Boris O’Brien, Neil Tugendhat, Tom Farris, Laura Johnson, Dr Caroline Offord, Dr Matthew Vara, Mr Shailesh Fell, Simon Johnson, Gareth Opperman, Guy Vickers, Martin Fletcher, Katherine Johnston, David Parish, Neil Vickers, Matt Fletcher, Mark Jones, Andrew Patel, rh Priti Villiers, rh Theresa Fletcher, Nick Jones, rh Mr David Paterson, rh Mr Owen Wakeford, Christian Ford, Vicky Jones, Fay Pawsey, Mark Walker, Sir Charles Foster, Kevin Jones, Mr Marcus Penning, rh Sir Mike Walker, Mr Robin Fox, rh Dr Liam Jupp, Simon Penrose, John Wallace, rh Mr Ben Francois, rh Mr Mark Kawczynski, Daniel Percy, Andrew Wallis, Dr Jamie Frazer, Lucy Kearns, Alicia Philp, Chris Warburton, David Freeman, George Keegan, Gillian Pincher, rh Christopher Warman, Matt Freer, Mike Knight, rh Sir Greg Poulter, Dr Dan Webb, Suzanne Fuller, Richard Knight, Julian Pow, Rebecca Whately, Helen Fysh, Mr Marcus Kruger, Danny Prentis, Victoria Wheeler, Mrs Heather Gale, rh Sir Roger Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Pritchard, Mark Whittaker, Craig Garnier, Mark Lamont, John Quin, Jeremy Whittingdale, rh Mr John 941 Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill 9 DECEMBER 2020 942

Wiggin, Bill Wright, rh Jeremy EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION Wild, James Young, Jacob (IMMIGRATION AND ASYLUM) Williams, Craig Zahawi, Nadhim That the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Williamson, rh Gavin Withdrawal) Act 2020 (Consequential, Saving, Transitional and Wilson, rh Sammy Tellers for the Noes: Transitory Provisions) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, Wood, Mike Eddie Hughes and No. 1309), dated 17 November 2020, a copy of which was laid Wragg, Mr William Tom Pursglove before this House on 18 November, be approved.—(Mike Freer.) The House divided: Ayes 355, Noes 258. Question accordingly negatived. Division No. 183] [5.55 pm The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their AYES proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Adams, Nigel Clarke, Mr Simon Clause 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Afolami, Bim Clarke, Theo Clauses 6 to 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Ahmad Khan, Imran Clarke-Smith, Brendan Schedules 1 to 4 agreed to. Aiken, Nickie Clarkson, Chris Aldous, Peter Cleverly, rh James The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. Amess, Sir David Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Bill reported, without amendment. Anderson, Stuart Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Bill to be considered tomorrow (Order, this day). Andrew, Stuart Colburn, Elliot Ansell, Caroline Collins, Damian Argar, Edward Costa, Alberto Business without Debate Atherton, Sarah Courts, Robert Atkins, Victoria Coutinho, Claire Bacon, Gareth Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Bacon, Mr Richard Crabb, rh Stephen DELEGATED LEGISLATION Badenoch, Kemi Crosbie, Virginia Bailey, Shaun Crouch, Tracey Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): Baillie, Siobhan Daly, James With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 4 to Baker, Duncan Davies, David T. C. 9 together. Baker, Mr Steve Davies, Gareth Baldwin, Harriett Davies, Dr James Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Barclay, rh Steve Davies, Mims Order No. 118(6)), Baron, Mr John Davies, Philip Baynes, Simon Davis, rh Mr David Bell, Aaron Davison, Dehenna EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION (ENVIRONMENTAL Benton, Scott Dinenage, Caroline PROTECTION) Beresford, Sir Paul Dines, Miss Sarah That the draft Control of Mercury (Amendment) (EU Exit) Berry, rh Jake Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 19 October, Bhatti, Saqib Docherty, Leo be approved. Blackman, Bob Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Blunt, Crispin Donelan, Michelle EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION (CONSUMER Bone, Mr Peter Dorries, Ms Nadine Bowie, Andrew Double, Steve PROTECTION) Bradley, Ben Dowden, rh Oliver That the draft REACH etc. (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Bradley, rh Karen Doyle-Price, Jackie Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 19 October, Brady, Sir Graham Drax, Richard be approved. Braverman, rh Suella Drummond, Mrs Flick That the draft Detergents (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations Brereton, Jack Duddridge, James 2020, which were laid before this House on 19 October, be Bridgen, Andrew Duguid, David approved. Bristow, Paul Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Britcliffe, Sara Dunne, rh Philip TRANSPORT Brokenshire, rh James Eastwood, Mark Browne, Anthony Edwards, Ruth That the draft Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2020, which was laid before this House on 15 October, be Bruce, Fiona Ellis, rh Michael approved. Buchan, Felicity Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Buckland, rh Robert Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Burghart, Alex Eustice, rh George EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION (CUSTOMS) Burns, rh Conor Evans, Dr Luke That the draft Export Control (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations Butler, Rob Evennett, rh Sir David 2020, which were laid before this House on 15 October, be Cairns, rh Alun Everitt, Ben approved. Campbell, Mr Gregory Fabricant, Michael Carter, Andy Farris, Laura Cartlidge, James Fell, Simon EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION Cash, Sir William Fletcher, Katherine That the draft Conflict Minerals (Compliance) (Northern Ireland) Cates, Miriam Fletcher, Mark (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on Caulfield, Maria Fletcher, Nick 15 October, be approved.—(Jesse Norman.) Chalk, Alex Ford, Vicky Question agreed to. Chishti, Rehman Foster, Kevin Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Churchill, Jo Fox, rh Dr Liam Order No. 118(6)), Clark, rh Greg Francois, rh Mr Mark 943 Business without Debate9 DECEMBER 2020 Business without Debate 944

Frazer, Lucy Kearns, Alicia Penrose, John Streeter, Sir Gary Freeman, George Keegan, Gillian Percy, Andrew Stride, rh Mel Freer, Mike Knight, rh Sir Greg Philp, Chris Stuart, Graham Fuller, Richard Knight, Julian Pincher, rh Christopher Sturdy, Julian Fysh, Mr Marcus Kruger, Danny Poulter, Dr Dan Sunderland, James Gale, rh Sir Roger Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Pow, Rebecca Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Garnier, Mark Lamont, John Prentis, Victoria Syms, Sir Robert Ghani, Ms Nusrat Largan, Robert Pritchard, Mark Thomas, Derek Gibb, rh Nick Latham, Mrs Pauline Quin, Jeremy Throup, Maggie Gibson, Peter Leadsom, rh Andrea Quince, Will Timpson, Edward Gideon, Jo Leigh, rh Sir Edward Raab, rh Dominic Tolhurst, Kelly Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Levy, Ian Randall, Tom Tomlinson, Justin Girvan, Paul Lewer, Andrew Redwood, rh John Tomlinson, Michael Glen, John Lewis, rh Brandon Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Tracey, Craig Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Richards, Nicola Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Gove, rh Michael Lockhart, Carla Richardson, Angela Trott, Laura Graham, Richard Loder, Chris Roberts, Rob Truss, rh Elizabeth Grant, Mrs Helen Logan, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Tugendhat, Tom Grayling, rh Chris Longhi, Marco Robinson, Gavin Vara, Mr Shailesh Green, Chris Lopez, Julia Robinson, Mary Vickers, Martin Green, rh Damian Lopresti, Jack Rosindell, Andrew Vickers, Matt Griffith, Andrew Lord, Mr Jonathan Ross, Douglas Villiers, rh Theresa Griffiths, Kate Loughton, Tim Rowley, Lee Wakeford, Christian Grundy, James Mackinlay, Craig Russell, Dean Walker, Sir Charles Gullis, Jonathan Mackrory, Cherilyn Rutley, David Walker, Mr Robin Halfon, rh Robert Maclean, Rachel Sambrook, Gary Wallace, rh Mr Ben Hall, Luke Mak, Alan Saxby, Selaine Wallis, Dr Jamie Hammond, Stephen Malthouse, Kit Scully, Paul Warburton, David Hancock, rh Matt Mangnall, Anthony Seely, Bob Warman, Matt Hands, rh Greg Mann, Scott Selous, Andrew Webb, Suzanne Harper, rh Mr Mark Marson, Julie Shannon, Jim Whately, Helen Harris, Rebecca Mayhew, Jerome Shapps, rh Grant Wheeler, Mrs Heather Harrison, Trudy Maynard, Paul Sharma, rh Alok Whittaker, Craig Hart, Sally-Ann McCartney, Jason Shelbrooke, rh Alec Whittingdale, rh Mr John Hart, rh Simon McCartney, Karl Simmonds, David Wiggin, Bill Hayes, rh Sir John McPartland, Stephen Skidmore, rh Chris Wild, James Heald, rh Sir Oliver McVey, rh Esther Smith, Chloe Williams, Craig Heappey, James Menzies, Mark Smith, Greg Williamson, rh Gavin Heaton-Harris, Chris Mercer, Johnny Smith, Henry Wilson, rh Sammy Henderson, Gordon Merriman, Huw Smith, Royston Wood, Mike Henry, Darren Metcalfe, Stephen Solloway, Amanda Wragg, Mr William Higginbotham, Antony Millar, Robin Spencer, Dr Ben Wright, rh Jeremy Hinds, rh Damian Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stafford, Alexander Young, Jacob Hoare, Simon Milling, rh Amanda Stephenson, Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Holden, Mr Richard Mills, Nigel Stevenson, Jane Hollinrake, Kevin Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stevenson, John Tellers for the Ayes: Hollobone, Mr Philip Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stewart, Bob Eddie Hughes and Holloway, Adam Moore, Damien Stewart, Iain Tom Pursglove Holmes, Paul Moore, Robbie Howell, John Morris, Anne Marie NOES Howell, Paul Morris, David Huddleston, Nigel Morris, James Abbott, rh Ms Diane Brabin, Tracy Hudson, Dr Neil Morrissey, Joy Abrahams, Debbie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hunt, Jane Morton, Wendy Ali, Rushanara Brennan, Kevin Hunt, rh Jeremy Mullan, Dr Kieran Ali, Tahir Brock, Deidre Hunt, Tom Mumby-Croft, Holly Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Brown, Alan Jack, rh Mr Alister Mundell, rh David Amesbury, Mike Brown, Ms Lyn Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Murray, Mrs Sheryll Anderson, Fleur Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Jenkin, Sir Bernard Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Antoniazzi, Tonia Buck, Ms Karen Jenkinson, Mark Neill, Sir Robert Ashworth, Jonathan Burgon, Richard Jenkyns, Andrea Nici, Lia Bardell, Hannah Butler, Dawn Jenrick, rh Robert Nokes, rh Caroline Barker, Paula Byrne, Ian Johnson, rh Boris Norman, rh Jesse Beckett, rh Margaret Byrne, rh Liam Johnson, Dr Caroline O’Brien, Neil Begum, Apsana Cadbury, Ruth Johnson, Gareth Offord, Dr Matthew Benn, rh Hilary Callaghan, Amy Johnston, David Opperman, Guy Betts, Mr Clive Cameron, Dr Lisa Jones, Andrew Paisley, Ian Black, Mhairi Campbell, rh Sir Alan Jones, rh Mr David Parish, Neil Blackford, rh Ian Carden, Dan Jones, Fay Patel, rh Priti Blackman, Kirsty Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Jones, Mr Marcus Paterson, rh Mr Owen Blake, Olivia Chamberlain, Wendy Jupp, Simon Pawsey, Mark Blomfield, Paul Champion, Sarah Kawczynski, Daniel Penning, rh Sir Mike Bonnar, Steven Chapman, Douglas 945 Business without Debate9 DECEMBER 2020 Business without Debate 946

Cherry, Joanna Hillier, Meg Norris, Alex Smith, Nick Clark, Feryal Hobhouse, Wera O’Hara, Brendan Smyth, Karin Cooper, Daisy Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Olney, Sarah Spellar, rh John Cooper, Rosie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Oppong-Asare, Abena Starmer, rh Keir Cooper, rh Yvette Hollern, Kate Osamor, Kate Stephens, Chris Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hopkins, Rachel Osborne, Kate Stevens, Jo Cowan, Ronnie Hosie, Stewart Oswald, Kirsten Stone, Jamie Coyle, Neil Howarth, rh Sir George Owatemi, Taiwo Streeting, Wes Crawley, Angela Huq, Dr Rupa Owen, Sarah Stringer, Graham Creasy, Stella Hussain, Imran Peacock, Stephanie Sultana, Zarah Cruddas, Jon Jardine, Christine Pennycook, Matthew Tarry, Sam Cryer, John Jarvis, Dan Perkins, Mr Toby Thewliss, Alison Cummins, Judith Johnson, Dame Diana Phillips, Jess Thomas, Gareth Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Kim Phillipson, Bridget Thompson, Owen Daby, Janet Jones, Darren Pollard, Luke Thomson, Richard Davey, rh Ed Jones, Gerald Powell, Lucy Thornberry, rh Emily David, Wayne Jones, rh Mr Kevan Qureshi, Yasmin Timms, rh Stephen Davies, Geraint Jones, Ruth Rayner, Angela Trickett, Jon Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Sarah Reed, Steve Turner, Karl Day, Martyn Kane, Mike Rees, Christina Twist, Liz De Cordova, Marsha Keeley, Barbara Reeves, Ellie Webbe, Claudia Debbonaire, Thangam Kendall, Liz Reeves, Rachel West, Catherine Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Khan, Afzal Reynolds, Jonathan Western, Matt Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kinnock, Stephen Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Whitehead, Dr Alan Dodds, Anneliese Kyle, Peter Rimmer, Ms Marie Whitford, Dr Philippa Doogan, Dave Lake, Ben Rodda, Matt Whitley, Mick Dorans, Allan Lammy, rh Mr David Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Whittome, Nadia Doughty, Stephen Lavery, Ian Saville Roberts, rh Liz Williams, Hywel Dowd, Peter Law, Chris Shah, Naz Wilson, Munira Dromey, Jack Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Sharma, Mr Virendra Winter, Beth Duffield, Rosie Lewis, Clive Sheerman, Mr Barry Wishart, Pete Eagle, Ms Angela Linden, David Sheppard, Tommy Yasin, Mohammad Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Tony Siddiq, Tulip Zeichner, Daniel Eastwood, Colum Long Bailey, Rebecca Slaughter, Andy Edwards, Jonathan Lucas, Caroline Smith, Alyn Tellers for the Noes: Efford, Clive Lynch, Holly Smith, Cat Bambos Charalambous and Elmore, Chris MacAskill, Kenny Smith, Jeff Mark Tami Eshalomi, Florence MacNeil, Angus Brendan Esterson, Bill Madders, Justin Question accordingly agreed to. Evans, Chris Mahmood, Mr Khalid Farron, Tim Mahmood, Shabana The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Farry, Stephen Malhotra, Seema proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Fellows, Marion Maskell, Rachael proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Ferrier, Margaret Matheson, Christian Fletcher, Colleen Mc Nally, John Flynn, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry PETITION Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Andy Proposed housing development in Lidsing Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Furniss, Gill McDonald, Stuart C. Gardiner, Barry McDonnell, rh John 6.6 pm Gibson, Patricia McFadden, rh Mr Pat Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I Gill, Preet Kaur McGinn, Conor rise to present a petition to the House of Commons Glindon, Mary McGovern, Alison from the residents of Gillingham and Rainham. Grant, Peter McKinnell, Catherine Gray, Neil McLaughlin, Anne The petition states: Green, Kate McMahon, Jim The petition of residents of the constituency of Gillingham Greenwood, Lilian McMorrin, Anna and Rainham, Greenwood, Margaret Mearns, Ian Declares that the proposal in Maidstone Borough Council’s Griffith, Nia Miliband, rh Edward Local Plan Review for up to 2,000 homes at Lidsing, which Gwynne, Andrew Mishra, Navendu borders Hempstead in the constituency of Gillingham and Rainham, Haigh, Louise Monaghan, Carol would negatively impact local infrastructure and green spaces; Hamilton, Fabian Moran, Layla and further that the building of this proposal would be detrimental Hanna, Claire Morden, Jessica to road capacity, school place availability and local GP services Hanvey, Neale Morgan, Stephen for the local residents of Hempstead and the surrounding areas. Hardy, Emma Morris, Grahame The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murray, Ian urge the Government to take into account the concerns of the Harris, Carolyn Murray, James petitioners and take action to ensure that the 2,000 home Lidsing Hayes, Helen Nandy, Lisa proposal in Maidstone Borough Council’s Plan does not go ahead. Hendrick, Sir Mark Newlands, Gavin Hendry, Drew Nichols, Charlotte And the petitioners remain, etc. Hill, Mike Nicolson, John [P002638] 947 9 DECEMBER 2020 Local Government Finance: Croydon 948

Local Government Finance: Croydon London’s councils. While that leaves an estimated funding gap in the next financial year, the broad picture from Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House across London and the feedback from my local authorities do now adjourn.—(.) is that the measures provided by the Ministry have met 6.7 pm the costs of covid in terms of service delivery. We all recognise that councils in the capital have done an amazing David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) job of rising to that challenge. (Con): The section 114 legal notice that halted all This adds up to a picture in which the serious impact non-statutory expenditure in the London borough of of covid on the capital’s finances has been substantially Croydon was the first in the capital in 20 years. The mitigated, to the extent that councils’ financial resilience previous two were in Hillingdon, where I serve, to this should not be compromised. Given that background, it day, as a councillor—I draw the attention of the House is clear that the situation in Croydon is not a consequence to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial of covid, so is it a consequence of austerity? Council Interests—and in Hackney. The circumstances today budgets consist of a number of elements, some of could not be more different, although they may have the which are ring-fenced, such as the dedicated schools eventual similarity of the need for a new Conservative grant, housing revenue account, parking revenue account administration to take office in Croydon to sort out the and public health grant. The main part of the budget mess—a challenge that I know Councillor Jason Cummings that is visible to residents—the general fund—is largely and his opposition colleagues will rise to, and a challenge spent on the authority’s day-to-day statutory services, that was very familiar to us in Hillingdon. with the bulk of that on social care, but also on resident- A section 114 notice starts off as a sign of cash flow visible services such as parks, libraries, waste collection distress in a council. Income is insufficient for planned and clearing up litter. The general fund also services any expenditure, so services have to be cut and expenditure debt finance costs relating to general fund capital halted until the budget is balanced again. We know that expenditure. Good practice and the expectation of auditors it has no direct private sector equivalent, but it has is that councils will retain a reserve—known in local the effect of requiring the organisation’s management authority accounting terms as “balances”—sufficient to demonstrate that it is a going concern. Today, with to cover likely risks in that budget. This is where we councillors and residents across the city seeing what is begin to see a divergence from the practices of other happening in Croydon with worry, it is important that London councils. we address here in Parliament the issues that have led to Financial risk is a part of life for councils, and the situation. Given the unfortunate silence of some of planning for it is a characteristic of all soundly financially the Labour Members representing them, this debate has managed authorities. Hillingdon, for example, faced the the purpose of airing the financial challenges facing our covid crisis with around £54 million in balances and London boroughs and providing some assurance to my reserves, sufficient to cover pretty much any financial constituents and others across our capital that the situation challenge that the authority might face and ensuring in Croydon will not be replicated elsewhere. the stable delivery of services to residents—ensuring Local government financial management is a complex, that libraries, litter clearing, waste collection and potholes some would say dull and, in many respects, unique being filled would all carry on come what may. Harrow process. It is unique in the public sector, in that councils Council, which also serves my constituents, is more have to balance their budgets every year. Clearly, financially challenged, but from my regular briefings by constituents across the capital will want to know that its chief executive and finance team, it is clear that it there is effective governance and effective oversight of remains on course for a stable and balanced budget. So decision making. The consequences can be very serious. we need to ask where we see a variance. In Hillingdon, we faced a 14.8% council tax rise, tens of Councils’ involvement in housing development is an millions of pounds of unspecified cuts and a budget essential part of housing delivery in the capital, and it is that had only been legal for the duration of the meeting welcome that council tax payers, rather than developers, at which it was agreed, as the legacy of a previous will see the upside of the gain where developments take administration. Residents in Croydon and across the place. However, it is noteworthy in the case of Croydon capital will want assurance that that is not the fate that that, unusually, the local authority has loaned a housing awaits them. subsidiary of around £220 million of capital—borrowed Context, of course, is all-important here. Our councillors money—of which a total of zero has been returned and constituents want to see evidence that what has against a reported business plan to return £110 million happened in Croydon is unique. Further work is under by today. way in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Clearly, that knocks a very significant hole in its Local Government and the wider local government budgetary position. As it went into the covid crisis with sector to establish the detail of what has happened. a capital debt of £1.5 billion, by far the highest in Certain things are strikingly different about the situation London, it is clear that, although capital borrowing to facing Croydon, which should give some assurance to invest in assets and services is no bad thing, it does residents in my constituency and elsewhere. impose borrowing costs on council tax payers—in this First, looking at the picture across London, the House case, about £43 million each year. That is compounded may wish to note that the finance report to the London if those business plans go wrong. Using those resources Councils leaders committee of 8 December referenced to fund what it appears since 2007 has essentially been a an overall rise of 4.5% in local authority resources burst of speculative property investments, it is clear that available to London as a result of the spending review. diversion of resources into servicing debts that are not The House may also wish to note that the report generating their planned returns on such a scale was a highlights the additional resources from the Government significant part of the problem and created a very weak to ameliorate the financial impact that covid has had on financial position going into the covid outbreak. 949 Local Government Finance: Croydon9 DECEMBER 2020 Local Government Finance: Croydon 950

Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): and sector-led improvement teams, who are already The financial situation in Croydon is worrying to residents beginning to help out. After all, why pay expensive in Carshalton and Wallington, as the London Borough consultancy firms when peers who have been through it of Sutton sits directly next to the London Borough of are able to rally round and use their experience to help Croydon. My hon. Friend mentioned the council’shousing sort the situation out? development arm. Does he share my concern that the Although Labour representatives have sadly remained huge amount of money that has been wasted does not silent on these concerns—and, in the case of Mayor seem to be accepted by the council administration itself, Khan, heaped praise on the administration for “perfect and that the first step to recovery for Croydon will have examples” of projects that even then were millions of to be the administration acknowledging the mistakes pounds over budget—I am determined, and we should that were made in getting it to this point? be determined, to provide other residents across London with an assurance that such failings are not common David Simmonds: My hon. Friend is absolutely right across London’s councils. I know that Ministers are to draw attention to that. Part of the reason for this equally determined that the success of our councils is debate is the frustration expressed by many that everyone— not undermined by the reputational damage and what from the auditors, to local residents, to councillors in has happened in Croydon. the opposition group, to Members of Parliament—was 6.20 pm raising these concerns, but they seem to have fallen on deaf ears. There is an absolutely critical need for the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, assurance in other local authorities—not just Hillingdon Communities and Local Government (): I and Harrow but Sutton and elsewhere—that a closer degree am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, of attention is being paid to the finances. Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds) for securing this debate on such an important topic. I am pleased to The point that my hon. Friend draws attention to was respond on behalf of the Government. I thank my hon. compounded in the case of Croydon, where—as Grant Friend for highlighting his experience as a serving councillor Thornton, the auditor, has highlighted—there was a in London, and agree that the mismanagement by the growing and unaddressed funding gap in the delivery of Labour-run Croydon Council, leading to the section 114 day-to-day services. These are the basics for a local notices, damages the reputation of the excellent work authority,as opposed to extraordinary speculative business that is carried out by local authorities up and down the activity that is out of the norm. That prompted Grant country. He may know that I also served as a councillor Thornton to issue—an extraordinary step—a report in and as a cabinet member on the Conservative-run Medway the public interest, given the scale of its concerns, Council prior to being elected as an MP.It was well known highlighting a shortfall of about £60 million between then that Labour spent all the money when it was in the resources available and the budgeted expenditure. control, and it was only when the Conservatives took That is a cash-flow problem on a massive scale, distinctly control that fiscal prudence and oversight returned. out of proportion with anything that we have seen in any other London borough. I will begin by talking about local government in general, and the steps that central Government have I should declare that I enjoyed a positive working taken to support local councils nationwide, before looking relationship with the former Croydon leader, Councillor at the issues in Croydon in isolation. The very first thing Tony Newman, in my local government days, and always that I should say is how grateful the Government are to found him a very passionate advocate for Croydon— those who work for local councils up and down the somewhere that was clearly his place that he felt determined country who have been tireless in helping our residents to improve. There is no suggestion that he or his colleagues to meet the challenges of the pandemic. I am sure that have acted in anything other than good faith. However, Members on both sides of the House agree that the with such a perilous financial position facing residents, crucial role that local government plays in delivering the and others across London asking what it means for vital services on which we all depend will never be more them, it is important that the Department, the Government, evident than during this pandemic, and I thank everyone the wider local government family and Croydon itself involved for their work. are clear about what has gone wrong and about the fact As hon. Members will know, supporting councils that this combination of failed commercial property to maintain critical services is a key priority for the speculation and, more importantly, the failure to address Government. That is why, at last month’s spending the fundamental management issues is out of step review, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the with what we see in other London boroughs. I want all Exchequer announced the key measures of income for residents in the capital to enjoythe stability,the residents-first local authorities’ core spending power to rise by 4.5% in attitude and sound financial management that is consistently cash terms next year. That equates to an additional highlighted by my constituents, because it is critical to £2.2 billion of funding for local government services. the delivery of services on which our community depends. The Chancellor also announced estimated funding of It is clear that Hillingdon and Harrow, Barking and around £3 billion in additional support for covid-19 Bexley and Havering and Redbridge have all faced the pressures next year.This comes on top of the unprecedented financial challenges of austerity and of covid, and they support that the Government have committed this financial have emerged with budgets that are robust. It is what year, with over £7.2 billion for local authorities even some have described as disastrous failed commercial before the extension of the contain outbreak management property speculation and a fundamental lack of grip on fund for local authorities under the highest level of the finances that have unusually brought Croydon to restrictions that was announced as part of the covid-19 this position. The local government sector is stepping in winter plan. This takes the total support committed to to help. I know that Ministers will be aware of the councils in England to tackling the impact of covid-19 particular value of the Local Government Association-led to over £10 billion. 951 Local Government Finance: Croydon9 DECEMBER 2020 Local Government Finance: Croydon 952

[Kelly Tolhurst] crashed. Most damningly, it provided a loan of over £200 million to a developer, brick by brick, which is yet Councils also have access to the co-payment scheme, to make any payments, as my hon. Friend outlined. which has been extended to June 2021. Under this That has resulted in a staggering pre-covid £1.5 billion scheme, the Government will cover local councils for debt—larger than that of any other London borough. 75% of losses beyond the first 5% of previously planned Local authorities are independent of national income from sales, fees and charges. We recognise that, Government and directly accountable through their even with the considerable support already provided to elected councillors to local residents. Where powers in local government, there may be individual authorities the Local Government Act 1999 are used, that involves with unique circumstances. That is why we are encouraging the passing of functions in those democratically elected them to approach my Department to discuss any concerns members to people appointed by the Secretary of State. that they have about their future financial position. We Intervention in a local authority by central Government remain committed to working closely with local authorities is therefore not to be undertaken lightly. We have been as they support their communities through the pandemic. clearing the path such that the powers will be used only Let me turn to Croydon specifically. Since the start when there is evidence of systematic and significant of the pandemic, the council has been allocated over failure at a local authority. Our firm preference when a £49.2 million in funding, including £33 million in local authority runs into difficulties is that it will tackle un-ringfenced grants, £8.1 million through the infection those challenges itself, possibly with sector-led support, control fund and £5.1 million through the contain outbreak as my hon. Friend mentioned. That continues to be the management fund. That is on top of the £20.8 million case. increase in Croydon Council’s core spending power for However, it is worrying that the interim chief executive 2021 that was announced on 6 February this year. officer said in November, when she wrote to councillors: I turn to the current financial challenges in the London “Colleagues across the council are still putting forward requests Borough of Croydon. As hon. Members are aware, the to spend money and for growth next year that we simply cannot council’s financial director has now issued two section 114 afford.” notices: the first on Wednesday 11 November, and the That is why, on 29 October, my right hon. Friend the second on Wednesday 2 December. Local authorities have Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local a legal duty to balance their budgets, and section 114 Government announced a rapid, non-statutory review notices are an important part of an accountability of the council to be conducted by an independent review framework that guards against irresponsible or ineffective team. Announcing the review, my right hon. Friend was financial management. If a council judges that it is clear that the situation described in the public interest unable to set or maintain a balanced budget, the finance report is officer has a statutory responsibility to issue a notice. “deeply concerning and unacceptable” The council then has 21 days to consider what action it and that residents of Croydon intends to take in response to that notice.Local government “deserve… better… from their local council.” is independent of central Government, and the decision to issue a section 114 notice rests with the council at the I am pleased to confirm that review local level. The Government have no role in the decision team has reported its findings to the Secretary of State. to issue a notice. He is considering the report and will respond in due course. I can reassure Members that the Secretary of That said, the Government are well aware of the State will take a keen interest in the steps the council wider concerns around Croydon’s overall finances and will need to take to address the governance and financial governance. During the pandemic, my Department met management issues that have been identified through with the council on multiple occasions to discuss its the independent review, ensuring that the residents of budgetary pressures. Croydon had publicly reported Croydon receive the services they have every right to that there has been significant uncertainty around the expect. council’s estimation of its budget gap throughout this I can, of course, understand that the current situation period. On 23 October, the council’s auditors published and the ongoing existence of a section 114 notice might a public interest report, which my hon. Friend alluded be a matter of concern for Croydon residents. Once a to, under the Local Audit and Accountability Act 2014. notice has been issued, the council is required to operate That report detailed serious concerns relating to governance, controls on spending for 21 days. During this period the financial management and commercial investments. The council may not enter into any new agreement that report highlighted that the council had failed to recognise involves expenditure unless a finance director has specifically both the seriousness of the financial position and the authorised the spend. However, we would expect existing urgency with which action needed to be taken. expenditure to continue, such as salaries, pension costs Grant Thornton’s report suggested that there was and expenditure required to honour existing contracts little evidence of councillors holding officers to account and legal requirements. Officials from the Ministry of or taking action to address the overspend reported in Housing, Communities and Local Government have 2017-18, 2018-19 and 2019-20. The Labour-run council been in discussion with the council, which has confirmed failed to address significant overspending, despite warnings that services linked to safeguarding vulnerable people before the covid pandemic. Sadly, the report lays bare and statutory responsibilities will continue to be delivered. the fact that Labour recklessly gambled hundreds of We have also been clear that the council should notify thousands, even millions, of pounds of taxpayers’moneys us if it anticipates that spending controls during the on disastrous commercial property ventures. For example, 21-day section 114 period will prevent it from delivering it bought a hotel for £30 million—20% more than the any services that are required to safeguard the residents asking price; this hotel has gone bankrupt—and a of Croydon during the pandemic, and we will continue £50 million shopping centre, the value of which has to monitor. 953 Local Government Finance: Croydon9 DECEMBER 2020 Local Government Finance: Croydon 954

At the end of the 21-day period, the council must Government will continue to take a keen interest in the meet to discuss a plan to bring the budget back into steps that Croydon Council is proposing to resolve the balance. The council held a meeting in response to the matters that have been outlined so eloquently by my first section 114 notice on 1 December, where it was hon. Friend. It is imperative that the council moves agreed that it was not possible to deliver a balanced forward towards a financially sustainable footing to budget, leading to the issue of a second notice the ensure that it continues to deliver for the communities it following day. It is for the council to decide what steps it serves. needs to take to balance its budget. The council made it Finally, I repeat that, although these are exceptional clear in its section 114 notices and accompanying reports circumstances and many councils up and down the that it will submit a request later in December to the country face challenges due to the pandemic and demands Government for financial support to help it bring the on their purse, they are still able to provide that robust budget back into balance. That request will be considered oversight challenge and deliver balanced budgets. I assure as and when it is received. residents that many local authorities up and down the I thank my hon. Friend for calling this debate on a country operate in a very good way, which we happily very important matter, and it is a shame that Labour support going forward. Members who represent the area are not here. As I have Question put and agreed to. outlined, the Secretary of State will be responding in due course to the independent report of the non-statutory 6.32 pm review team, alongside any request that Croydon Council may submit to Government for financial support. The House adjourned. 955 9 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 956

Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

The following is the list of Members currently certified Mhairi Black (Paisley and Patrick Grady as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated Renfrewshire South) (SNP) as their proxy: Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Patrick Grady Lochaber) (SNP) Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Bob Blackman (Harrow East) Stuart Andrew Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Con) North and Stoke Newington) Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen Patrick Grady (Lab) North) (SNP) Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East Chris Elmore Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Hallam) Chris Elmore and Saddleworth) (Lab) (Lab) Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) Stuart Andrew Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Chris Elmore (Con) Central) (Lab) Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) Stuart Andrew (Reigate) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) Stuart Andrew Nickie Aiken (Cities of London Stuart Andrew (Con) and Westminster) (Con) Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Patrick Grady Tahir Ali (Birmingham, Hall Chris Elmore Chryston and Bellshill) (SNP) Green) (Lab) Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) Chris Elmore Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con) Mark Spencer (Lab/Co-op) Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) Chris Elmore Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Stuart Andrew Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) Chris Elmore Moorlands) (Con) (Lab) (Fareham) Stuart Andrew Sir (Southend Stuart Andrew (Con) West) (Con) Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West ) Chris Elmore Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con) Mark Spencer Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent Stuart Andrew Stuart Anderson Stuart Andrew South) (Con) (Wolverhampton South West) Andrew Bridgen (North West Stuart Andrew (Con) Leicestershire) (Con) (Eastbourne) Stuart Andrew (Peterborough) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab) Chris Elmore Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con) Stuart Andrew Edward Argar (Charnwood) Stuart Andrew Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North Patrick Grady (Con) and Leith) (SNP) Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) Stuart Andrew (Old Bexley Stuart Andrew (Con) and Sidcup) (Con) Victoria Atkins (Louth and Stuart Andrew Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Patrick Grady Horncastle) (Con) Loudon) (SNP) Mr Richard Bacon (South Stuart Andrew Norfolk) (Con) Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) Chris Elmore (Lab) Kemi Badenoch (Saffron Stuart Andrew Walden) (Con) Anthony Browne (South Stuart Andrew Cambridgeshire) (Con) Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ms Karen Buck (Westminster Chris Elmore Steve Barclay (North East Stuart Andrew North) (Lab) Cambridgeshire) (Con) (Brentwood and Stuart Andrew Hannah Bardell (Livingston) Patrick Grady Ongar) (Con) (SNP) Mr John Baron (Basildon and Stuart Andrew Richard Burgon (Leeds East) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Billericay) (Con) (Lab) Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) Stuart Andrew Conor Burns (Bournemouth Stuart Andrew (Con) West) (Con) Margaret Beckett (Derby South) Chris Elmore Dawn Butler (Brent Central) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Lab) (Lab) Apsana Begum (Poplar and Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Aylesbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Limehouse) (Lab) Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Chris Elmore Scott Benton (Blackpool South) Stuart Andrew Derby) (Lab) (Con) Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Sir (Mole Valley) Stuart Andrew Hodge Hill) (Lab) (Con) Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Chris Elmore Jake Berry (Rossendale and Stuart Andrew Isleworth) (Lab) Darwen) (Con) Alun Cairns (Vale of Stuart Andrew Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) Chris Elmore Glamorgan) (Con) (Lab) Amy Callaghan (East Patrick Grady Saqib Bhatti (Meriden) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dunbartonshire) (SNP) 957 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote9 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 958

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Patrick Grady Janet Daby (Lewisham East) Chris Elmore Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab) (SNP) James Daly (Bury North) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Gregory Campbell (East Gavin Robinson Ed Davey (Kingston and Wendy Chamberlain Londonderry) (DUP) Surbiton) (LD) Andy Carter (Warrington South) Stuart Andrew (Caerphilly) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Gareth Davies (Grantham and Stuart Andrew (South Suffolk) Stuart Andrew Stamford) (Con) (Con) Geraint Davies (Swansea West) Chris Elmore Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab/Co-op) Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stuart Andrew (Mid Sussex) (Con) Stuart Andrew Stocksbridge) (Con) Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) Chris Elmore Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Sarah Champion (Rotherham) Chris Elmore Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Mr David Davis (Haltemprice Stuart Andrew DouglasChapman(Dunfermline Patrick Grady and Howden) (Con) and West Fife) (SNP) Martyn Day (Linlithgow and Patrick Grady JoannaCherry(EdinburghSouth Patrick Grady East Falkirk) (SNP) West) (SNP) Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol Chris Elmore (Bury St Edmunds) Stuart Andrew West) (Lab) (Con) Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) Rachel Hopkins Feryal Clark (Enfield North) Chris Elmore Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi Chris Elmore (Lab) (Slough) (Lab) Mr Simon Clarke Stuart Andrew (Gosport) Stuart Andrew (Middlesbrough South and East (Con) Cleveland) (Con) Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Stuart Andrew Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dales) (Con) Brendan Clarke-Smith Stuart Andrew Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Patrick Grady (Bassetlaw) (Con) Dunbartonshire) (SNP) Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Stuart Andrew Michelle Donelan (Chippenham) Stuart Andrew Middleton) (Con) (Con) (Braintree) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP) Patrick Grady Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Stuart Andrew Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Patrick Grady Coastal) (Con) Cumnock) (SNP) (Folkestone and Stuart Andrew Ms (Mid Stuart Andrew Hythe) (Con) Bedfordshire) (Con) Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD) Wendy Chamberlain Steve Double (St Austell and Stuart Andrew Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) Chris Elmore Newquay) (Con) (Lab) Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South Chris Elmore Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) Bell Ribeiro-Addy and Penarth) (Lab) (Ind) Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab) Chris Elmore Alberto Costa (South Stuart Andrew (Hertsmere) Stuart Andrew Leicestershire) (Con) (Con) (East Surrey) Stuart Andrew (Con) Richard Drax (South Dorset) Stuart Andrew (Con) Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) Patrick Grady (SNP) Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Erdington) (Lab) Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Stuart Andrew Devon) (Con) Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Stuart Andrew Valley) (Con) Angela Crawley (Lanark and Patrick Grady Hamilton East) (SNP) (Rochford and Stuart Andrew Southend East) (Con) Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) Chris Elmore (Lab) Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) Chris Elmore (Lab) Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) Stuart Andrew (Con) Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Chatham and Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) Chris Elmore Aylesford) (Con) (Lab) Jon Cruddas (Dagenham and Chris Elmore Maria Eagle (Garston and Chris Elmore Rainham) (Lab) Halewood) (Lab) John Cryer (Leyton and Chris Elmore ColumEastwood(Foyle)(SDLP) Patrick Grady Wanstead) (Lab) Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) Stuart Andrew Judith Cummins (Bradford Chris Elmore (Con) South) (Lab) Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alex Cunningham (Stockton Chris Elmore Michael Ellis (Northampton Stuart Andrew North) (Lab) North) (Con) 959 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote9 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 960

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Mr Tobias Ellwood Stuart Andrew Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham Stuart Andrew (Bournemouth East) (Con) and Amersham) (Con) Mrs (Dover) Stuart Andrew John Glen (Salisbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) Chris Elmore Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab/Co-op) Mr Robert Goodwill Stuart Andrew Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) Chris Elmore (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con) (Lab) Michael Gove (Surrey Heath) Stuart Andrew George Eustice (Camborne and Stuart Andrew (Con) Redruth) (Con) Mrs (Maidstone Stuart Andrew Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore and The Weald) (Con) op) Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) Patrick Grady Dr LukeEvans (Bosworth) (Con) Stuart Andrew Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) Patrick Grady Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath Stuart Andrew (SNP) and Crayford) (Con) (Epsom and Stuart Andrew (Milton Keynes Stuart Andrew Ewell) (Con) North) (Con) (Ashford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) Stuart Andrew Kate Green (Stretford and Chris Elmore (Con) Urmston) (Lab) (Newbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham Chris Elmore Stephen Farry (North Down) Wendy Chamberlain South) (Lab) (Alliance) Margaret Greenwood (Wirral Chris Elmore Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) Stuart Andrew West) (Lab) (Con) Andrew Griffith (Arundel and Stuart Andrew Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Patrick Grady South Downs) (Con) Wishaw) (SNP) Kate Griffiths (Burton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen Jonathan Edwards James Grundy (Leigh) (Con) Stuart Andrew and Hamilton West) (Ind) Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent Stuart Andrew Katherine Fletcher (South Stuart Andrew North) (Con) Ribble) (Con) Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Chris Elmore Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) Patrick Grady Reddish) (Lab) (SNP) Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) Chris Elmore (Chelmsford) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con) Stuart Andrew Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con) Rebecca Harris Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) Chris Elmore Luke Hall (Thornbury and Yate) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) Stuart Andrew Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North Chris Elmore (Con) East) (Lab) Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Chris Elmore Stephen Hammond Stuart Andrew Deptford) (Lab) (Wimbledon) (Con) Mary Kelly Foy (City of Bell Ribeiro-Addy (West Suffolk) Stuart Andrew Durham) (Lab) (Con) Mr (Rayleigh Stuart Andrew Greg Hands (Chelsea and Stuart Andrew and Wickford) (Con) Fulham) (Con) (South East Stuart Andrew Claire Hanna (Belfast South) Liz Saville Roberts Cambridgeshire) (Con) (SDLP) George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) Stuart Andrew Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Patrick Grady (Con) Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) Stuart Andrew Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Sir (North Thanet) Stuart Andrew Hull West and Hessle) (Lab) (Con) Ms Harriet Harman Chris Elmore Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) Stuart Andrew (Camberwell and Peckham) (Con) (Lab) Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) Stuart Andrew Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) (Bognor Regis and Stuart Andrew Simon Hart (Carmarthen West Stuart Andrew Littlehampton) (Con) and South Pembrokeshire) (Con) Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire Patrick Grady Sir John Hayes (South Holland Stuart Andrew and Arran) (SNP) and The Deepings) (Con) Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Oliver Heald (North East Stuart Andrew Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Stuart Andrew Hertfordshire) (Con) Central) (Con) James Heappey (Wells) (Con) Stuart Andrew Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) Stuart Andrew Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op) (Con) 961 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote9 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 962

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Gordon Henderson Stuart Andrew Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil Chris Elmore (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) and Rhymney) (Lab) (Con) Ruth Jones (Newport West) Chris Elmore Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab/Co-op) Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) Chris Elmore Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Patrick Grady (Lab) Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP) Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Chris Elmore Anthony Higginbotham Stuart Andrew Sale East) (Lab) (Burnley) (Con) Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury Stuart Andrew (East Hampshire) Stuart Andrew and Atcham) (Con) (Con) Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stuart Andrew Simon Hoare (North Dorset) Stuart Andrew Melton) (Con) (Con) (Chichester) Stuart Andrew Dame Margaret Hodge Chris Elmore (Con) (Barking) (Lab) Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Chris Elmore Mrs Sharon Hodgson Chris Elmore Eccles South) (Lab) (Washington and Sunderland Liz Kendall (Leicester West) Chris Elmore West) (Lab) (Lab) Richard Holden (North West Stuart Andrew Afzal Khan (Manchester, Chris Elmore Durham) (Con) Gorton) (Lab) Kate Hollern (Blackburn) (Lab) Chris Elmore Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) Chris Elmore Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Stuart Andrew (Lab) Malton) (Con) Sir (East Yorkshire) Stuart Andrew (Gravesham) Maria Caulfield (Con) (Con) Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con) Stuart Andrew Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) Patrick Grady (Spelthorne) Stuart Andrew (SNP) (Con) Sir George Howarth (Knowsley) Chris Elmore Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) Chris Elmore (Henley) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con) Stuart Andrew John Lamont (Berwickshire, Stuart Andrew Nigel Huddleston (Mid Stuart Andrew Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con) Worcestershire) (Con) Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Mr William Wragg Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and Stuart Andrew Derbyshire) (Con) The Border) (Con) Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Jane Hunt (Loughborough) Stuart Andrew Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP) Patrick Grady (Con) Andrea Leadsom (South Stuart Andrew JeremyHunt(SouthWestSurrey) Stuart Andrew Northamptonshire) (Con) (Con) Sir Edward Leigh Stuart Andrew Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Chris Elmore (Gainsborough) (Con) Acton) (Lab) Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Imran Hussain (Bradford East) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Andrew Lewer (Northampton Stuart Andrew (Lab) South) (Con) Mr Alister Jack (Dumfries and Stuart Andrew (Great Stuart Andrew Galloway) (Con) Yarmouth) (Con) Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) Chris Elmore Clive Lewis (Norwich South) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab) Mr (North Stuart Andrew Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger Stuart Andrew East Hampshire) (Con) (Bridgwater and West Somerset) Mark Jenkinson (Workington) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) David Linden (Glasgow East) Patrick Grady (Morley and Stuart Andrew (SNP) Outwood) (Con) Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) Chris Elmore Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con) Stuart Andrew Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) Ian Paisley Boris Johnson (Uxbridge and Stuart Andrew (DUP) South Ruislip) (Con) Mark Logan (Bolton North Stuart Andrew Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford Stuart Andrew East) (Con) and North Hykeham) (Con) Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford Bell Ribeiro-Addy Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston Chris Elmore and Eccles) (Lab) upon Hull North) (Lab) Marco Longhi (Dudley North) Stuart Andrew GarethJohnson(Dartford)(Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Darren Jones (Bristol North Chris Elmore Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Stuart Andrew West) (Lab) Upminster) (Con) Fay Jones (Brecon and Stuart Andrew JackLopresti(FiltonandBradley Stuart Andrew Radnorshire) (Con) Stoke) (Con) 963 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote9 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 964

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Mr (Woking) Stuart Andrew Stephen Metcalfe (South Stuart Andrew (Con) Basildon and East Thurrock) Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Con) Pavilion) (Green) Edward Miliband (Doncaster Chris Elmore Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab) Chris Elmore North) (Lab) Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) Patrick Grady Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) Stuart Andrew (SNP) (Con) Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) Chris Elmore Amanda Milling (Cannock Stuart Andrew (Lab) Chase) (Con) Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con) Stuart Andrew Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Andy McDonald Chris Elmore Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Stuart Andrew (Middlesbrough) (Lab) Coldfield) (Con) Stewart Malcolm McDonald Patrick Grady Carol Monaghan (Glasgow Patrick Grady (Glasgow South) (SNP) North West) Stuart C. McDonald Patrick Grady Layla Moran (Oxford West and Wendy Chamberlain (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Abingdon) (LD) Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) (Portsmouth Mark Spencer John McDonnell (Hayes and Bell Ribeiro-Addy North) (Con) Harlington) (Lab) Anne Marie Morris (Newton Stuart Andrew Mr Pat McFadden Chris Elmore Abbot) (Con) (Wolverhampton South East) David Morris (Morecambe and Stuart Andrew (Lab) Lunesdale) (Con) Conor McGinn (St Helens Chris Elmore () Stuart Andrew North) (Lab) (Con) Alison McGovern (Wirral South) Chris Elmore Wendy Morton (Aldridge- Stuart Andrew (Lab) Brownhills) (Con) Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle Chris Elmore Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and upon Tyne North) (Lab) Nantwich) (Con) (South Thanet) Stuart Andrew Holly Mumby-Croft Stuart Andrew (Con) (Scunthorpe) (Con) (Truro and Stuart Andrew David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Stuart Andrew Falmouth) (Con) ClydesdaleandTweeddale)(Con) Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow Patrick Grady Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) Chris Elmore North East) (SNP) (Lab) Rachel Maclean (Redditch) Stuart Andrew James Murray (Ealing North) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab/Co-op) Jim McMahon (Oldham West Chris Elmore Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Stuart Andrew and Royton) (Lab) Cornwall) (Con) AnnaMcMorrin(Cardiff North) Chris Elmore Andrew Murrison (South West Stuart Andrew (Lab) Wiltshire) (Con) John Mc Nally (Falkirk) (SNP) Patrick Grady Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab) Chris Elmore Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na Patrick Grady Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Stuart Andrew h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Chislehurst) (Con) Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) Stuart Andrew Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Patrick Grady (Con) Renfrewshire North) (SNP) Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Lia Nici (Great Grimsby) (Con) Stuart Andrew Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Chris Elmore John Nicolson (Ochil and South Patrick Grady Perry Barr) (Lab) Perthshire) (SNP) Shabana Mahmood Chris Elmore (Romsey and Stuart Andrew (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab) North) (Con) (Havant) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jesse Norman (Hereford and Stuart Andrew (North West Stuart Andrew South Herefordshire) (Con) Hampshire) (Con) Alex Norris (Nottingham North) Chris Elmore Julie Marson (Hertford and Stuart Andrew (Lab/Co-op) Stortford) (Con) Neil O’Brien (Harborough) Stuart Andrew Rachael Maskell (York Central) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Patrick Grady Paul Maynard (Blackpool North Stuart Andrew Bute) (SNP) and Cleveleys) (Con) Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) Rebecca Harris Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Con) Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con) Stuart Andrew Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con) Stuart Andrew JohnnyMercer (Plymouth, Moor Stuart Andrew Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Chris Elmore View) (Con) Thamesmead) (Lab) (Bexhill and Stuart Andrew Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/ Rachel Hopkins Battle) (Con) Co-op) 965 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote9 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 966

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Chris Elmore Kirsten Oswald (East Patrick Grady Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op) Renfrewshire) (SNP) Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Stuart Andrew Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North Chris Elmore Northfield) (Lab) West) (Lab) Selaine Saxby (North Devon) Stuart Andrew Sarah Owen (Luton North) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Paul Scully (Sutton and Cheam) Stuart Andrew (Witham) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mr Owen Paterson (North Stuart Andrew (Isle of Wight) (Con) Stuart Andrew Shropshire) (Con) (South West Rebecca Harris Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con) Stuart Andrew Bedfordshire) (Con) Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley Chris Elmore Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab) Chris Elmore East) (Lab) (Welwyn Hatfield) Stuart Andrew (Con) Sir (Hemel Stuart Andrew Hempstead) (Con) (Reading West) Stuart Andrew (Con) Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Chris Elmore Southall) (Lab) Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Yardley) (Lab) Mr Barry Sheerman Chris Elmore (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) Bridget Phillipson (Houghton Chris Elmore and Sunderland South) (Lab) Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Stuart Andrew Rothwell) (Con) Chris Philp (Croydon South) Stuart Andrew (Con) Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh Patrick Grady East) (SNP) Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) Stuart Andrew (Con) Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Chris Elmore Kilburn) (Lab) Dr (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con) David Simmonds (Ruislip, Stuart Andrew Northwood and Pinner) (Con) Rebecca Pow (Taunton Deane) Stuart Andrew (Con) Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) Stuart Andrew (Con) Lucy Powell (Manchester Chris Elmore Central) (Lab/Co-op) Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Banbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) Patrick Grady Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) Stuart Andrew (Con) Cat Smith (Lancaster and Chris Elmore Fleetwood) (Lab) (Horsham) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Norwich North) Stuart Andrew (Colchester) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South Chris Elmore Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con) Stuart Andrew East) (Lab) Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) Chris Elmore (Esher and Stuart Andrew (Lab) Walton) (Con) (Southampton, Stuart Andrew Angela Rayner (Ashton-under- Chris Elmore Itchen) (Con) Lyne) (Lab) Karin Smyth (Bristol South) Chris Elmore Steve Reed (Croydon North) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab/Co-op) Amanda Solloway (Derby Stuart Andrew Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab) Chris Elmore North) (Con) Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West Chris Elmore Dr (Runnymede Stuart Andrew and Penge) (Lab) and Weybridge) (Con) Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) Chris Elmore Alexander Stafford (Rother Stuart Andrew (Lab) Valley) (Con) Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge Chris Elmore Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Chris Elmore and Hyde) (Lab) Pancras) (Lab) NicolaRichards(WestBromwich Stuart Andrew Chris Stephens (Glasgow South Patrick Grady East) (Con) West) (SNP) Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens Chris Elmore Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) Stuart Andrew South and Whiston) (Lab) (Con) Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) Chris Elmore Mr Laurence Robertson Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Tewkesbury) (Con) Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton Stuart Andrew Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con) Stuart Andrew North East) (Con) Matt Rodda (Reading East) Chris Elmore John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con) Stuart Andrew Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes Stuart Andrew (Watford) (Con) Stuart Andrew South) (Con) 967 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote9 DECEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 968

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Jamie Stone (Caithness, Wendy Chamberlain Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Stuart Andrew Sutherland and Easter Ross) Preston North) (LD) DrJamieWallis(Bridgend)(Con) Stuart Andrew Sir (South West Stuart Andrew Matt Warman (Boston and Stuart Andrew Devon) (Con) Skegness) (Con) Wes Streeting (Ilford North) Chris Elmore David Warburton (Somerset and Stuart Andrew (Lab) Frome) (Con) Mel Stride (Central Devon) Stuart Andrew Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Graham Stuart (Beverley and Stuart Andrew Claudia Webbe (Leicester East) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Holderness) (Con) (Ind) Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con) Stuart Andrew Catherine West (Hornsey and Chris Elmore Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Wood Green) (Lab) (Lab) (Faversham and Stuart Andrew Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mid Kent) (Con) Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Patrick Grady Mrs Heather Wheeler (South Stuart Andrew Central) (SNP) Derbyshire) (Con) Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Patrick Grady Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) Chris Elmore Ayrshire) (SNP) (Lab/Co-op) Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab) Chris Elmore Emily Thornberry (Islington Chris Elmore Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) Stuart Andrew South and Finsbury) (Lab) (Con) Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) Stuart Andrew (Malden) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Kelly Tolhurst (Rochester and Stuart Andrew Nadia Whittome (Nottingham Chris Elmore Strood) (Con) East) (Lab) Justin Tomlinson (North Stuart Andrew Bill Wiggin (North Stuart Andrew Swindon) (Con) Herefordshire) (Con) Craig Tracey (North Stuart Andrew Craig Williams Stuart Andrew Warwickshire) (Con) (Montgomeryshire) (Con) Anne-Marie Trevelyan Stuart Andrew Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) Ben Lake (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (Con) Gavin Williamson Stuart Andrew Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Montgomeryshire) (Con) (Sevenoaks) (Con) Stuart Andrew Munira Wilson (Twickenham) Wendy Chamberlain (LD) Elizabeth Truss (South West Stuart Andrew Norfolk) (Con) Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) Rachel Hopkins (Lab) (Tonbridge and Stuart Andrew Malling) (Con) Pete Wishart (Perth and North Patrick Grady Perthshire) (SNP) Karl Turner (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Hull East) (Lab) Mike Wood (Dudley South) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mr (North West Stuart Andrew Cambridgeshire) (Con) Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Stuart Andrew Southam) (Con) Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) Stuart Andrew Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Theresa Villiers (Chipping Stuart Andrew Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con) Stuart Andrew Barnet) (Con) Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on- Stuart Andrew Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) Stuart Andrew Avon) (Con) (Con) 389WH 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: NAO Report on 390WH Government Procurement Ms Angela Eagle (in the Chair): Order. I am not going Westminster Hall to allow interventions that long in future. There are many people on the call list, and it is not fair to them. Wednesday 9 December 2020 Dan Carden: Thank you, Ms Eagle. I absolutely agree [Ms ANGELA EAGLE in the Chair] with my hon. Friend. Story after story has come forward in a similar vein. Covid-19: NAO Report on Government Public procurement regulations are designed to safeguard Procurement public confidence in the spending of public money. On [Relevant Document: e-petition 328408, Hold a public 18 March 2020, the Cabinet Office implemented emergency inquiry into Government contracts granted during procedures for procurement to allow for extreme urgency, Covid-19.] including directly awarding contracts to suppliers without competition. That guidance referred to the need to keep 9.30 am proper records of decisions and actions on individual contracts; to have transparency and publication Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): I beg to requirements; and to achieve value for money—basic move, requirements that the report and other information in That this House has considered the NAO report on Investigation the public domain now show the Government failed to into government procurement during the covid-19 pandemic. meet. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Eagle. I start by thanking the National Audit Office The NAO highlights that, remarkably, the Cabinet for its report. I also thank all those who have been Office guidance failed to give direction on managing the working to shine a light on Government procurement risks that should be considered as a result of using during the pandemic: the Good Law Project, which is direct awards. The usual Cabinet Office spending controls bringing forward a number of judicial reviews; reporters on contracts over £10 million were not applied to the for Byline Times, openDemocracy, The Guardian and procurement of personal protective equipment. A clearance The Sunday Times; and the UK Anti-Corruption Coalition. board was later set up, with an eight-stage process to approve PPE contracts over £5 million, but we know By chance, today’s debate takes place on the UN’s that £1.5 billion was awarded in contracts before proper International Anti-Corruption Day.A number of businesses processes were in place and before any financial and and others have contacted me in recent days to share company due diligence process was standardised. their views and experiences, for which I am grateful. I applied for the debate to highlight the important findings By 31 July 2020, over 8,600 contracts, worth £18 billion, in the NAO report and the serious questions that the had been awarded, of which £10.5 billion-worth were Government now have to answer. The report sets out awarded directly without competition. Under the cover the facts on the tens of billions of pounds of public of the pandemic, billions of pounds of public money money spent by Government Departments during the was handed to private companies, including Tory-linked covid-19 pandemic, up to 31 July 2020. It covers the firms, without competition, transparency or accountability. pressure and need to procure goods, services and works quickly; the regulations that applied, or should have Jane Hunt (Loughborough) (Con): Does the hon. applied, to this frenzied procurement; and the Gentleman agree that we were on daily calls at the time management—or mismanagement, in many cases—of discussing the pandemic and how we could help our procurement risks, often including blatant conflicts of constituents and companies? People from all parties interest. were there, including Labour Members who were rightly asking for PPE for care homes and other organisations Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I am grateful to in their constituencies. my hon. Friend for securing the debate. PPE Medpro was incorporated on 12 May and was awarded a contract for £122 million for single-use disposable medical robes, Dan Carden: I will move on because I want to go which it was going to import. The contract was not through the ways in which the system was set up. I will advertised, but the company had a link to a Conservative move on to some of the case studies highlighted in the peer. By contrast, my constituents who own Florence report. PestFix, a pest control supplier, was handed a Roby spent months trying to get a contract for multi-use contract worth £350 million for PPE. The Government medical robes, which can be used up to 100 times. They contracted with PestFix to purchase 25 million FFP2 were given the run-around and, after months, they had masks, which we now know did not meet the Government’s to give up and lay off staff. Is that contrast not a perfect published PPE specifications at the time of the order. example of everything that the National Audit Office Only after 600,000 masks were completed and delivered highlights as being wrong with procurement in this did the Department communicate the problem to PestFix crisis? This is a missed opportunity to have environmentally and alter the contract. sustainable production and value for money,with reusable, Ayanda Capital—a London-based investment firm not single-use, equipment. whose senior adviser was Andrew Mills—was awarded Ms Angela Eagle (in the Chair): Order. Wind up the a PPE contract worth £252 million. At the time, Mills question, please. was also an adviser to the Board of Trade, part of the Department for International Trade. The 50 million Bill Esterson: This is a missed opportunity to support masks purchased from Ayanda Capital failed to meet the local economy and workers. Instead, we have imports, NHS specifications and were never able to be used. The not local jobs, and opportunism, with the use of fast-track deal’s documentation failed to identify any conflicts of access to the Government party. interest. 391WH Covid-19: NAO Report on 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: NAO Report on 392WH Government Procurement Government Procurement [Dan Carden] workers were pleading for the kit that they needed to do their job safely. We all recognised that this was an Other cases have come to light. P14 Medical, a small emergency, but the need to act fast does not explain or firm based in Stroud, Gloucestershire, which recorded excuse the Government’s actions. It does not explain significant losses in 2019, was handed a £156 million why the emergency procurement rules should have been contract to import PPE from China. Its director is a applied to non-PPE or non-emergency suppliers, such Conservative councillor. PPE Medpro, which has already as public relations agencies, and nor does it justify why been mentioned and is run by Anthony Page, a business some consultants were paid in one week what a nurse associate of Conservative peer Baroness Mone, was earns in an entire year. It does not explain why rules handed a £122 million contract weeks after it was set around transparency, which were not suspended by the up. In fact, PPE Medpro was set up on the day that emergency procedures, were not followed, or why the Page quit as secretary of the company that deals with Government still refuse to reveal basic information Baroness Mone’s brand. about who was bidding for contracts and how decisions In another case, Spanish businessman Gabriel González about contracts were made. Andersson received £21 million of taxpayer’s money for Here is where the Government’s story really falls acting as an agent to an American jewellery designer apart. Weknow that dozens of experienced local suppliers who, despite the absence of relevant experience, received that offered to provide PPE were ignored. These qualified major contracts for the supply of PPE. The Health businesses had the capacity to produce large quantities Secretary’s former neighbour, who runs a pub in his of PPE quickly, but they were overlooked for contracts village and has no previous experience in medical supplies, while businesses that had no prior experience were was awarded a £30 million contract to make millions of deemed fit. Ahead of this debate, I was contacted by plastic vials for covid tests. He first contacted the Health reputable PPE suppliers that say they were crowded out Secretary by WhatsApp. during the pandemic by organisations that had no It is not just in the procurement of PPE that the history of PPE manufacture or supply, some of which Government have serious questions to answer. Some we now know had existed only for a matter of weeks. £840,000 was handed to the communications company, One established family-run company in Merseyside was Public First, to run focus groups. The contract for that forced to lay off staff after its offer of PPE to Government work was awarded retrospectively.Public First was founded was ignored and then refused, as contracts instead went by husband and wife Mr Frayne and Ms Wolf in 2016. to Tory-linked firms buying from abroad. Both Frayne and Wolf have worked in senior positions The cronyism does not stop with contracts. We have at different times for the former Education Secretary, also witnessed an opaque and troubling appointment and now Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and process, whereby senior figures with close ties to the Minister for the Cabinet Office, the right hon. Member Conservative party have won public jobs that are of for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove). great importance in the national response to the pandemic. The NAO stated: I pay tribute to Gabriel Pogrund and Tom Calver at “We found no documentation on the consideration of conflicts The Sunday Times for their investigation, which was of interest, no recorded process for choosing the supplier, and no headlined, “Chumocracy first in line as Ministers splash specific justification for using emergency procurement.” covid cash”. Their investigation really is essential reading; The Government have tried to claim that the NAO it is extensive, and there is not time to do it justice in this report shows Ministers properly declared their interests debate, but it starts with the Prime Minister’s appointment and that there is no evidence of Ministers’ involvement of a close family friend, Kate Bingham, who is also the in procurement decisions or contract management. The wife of a Conservative MP, to head up the vaccines truth is that we just do not know what role Ministers taskforce. There was no formal appointment process, played. and Ms Bingham was appointed despite being a venture capitalist who had no previous experience in the field. The Government’s only explanation is that this was She herself has said that her initial reaction to the Prime an emergency and they were sourcing PPE as quickly as Minister’s offer was to say: possible. Yes, the Government had to source PPE quickly—a problem of their own making. During years “I am not a vaccine expert, why should I be the right person?” of cutbacks, emergency stockpiles of PPE dwindled Bingham has spent £670,000 on consultants from a and went out of date. The Government ignored warnings small PR agency with close links to the family of from their own advisers to buy missing equipment, and Dominic Cummings. She is also facing accusations that pandemic planning became yet another casualty of she shared sensitive Government information at a private austerity and incompetence. It took Ministers until equity networking event in the United States. March to realise that the NHS supply chain, fragmented Then there is Lord Feldman, a former chairman of by years of marketisation, could not distribute PPE the Conservative party, who was secretly appointed as quickly enough to meet demand, which left Ministers an unpaid adviser to the Department of Health. He sat scrambling to source PPE from elsewhere and overpaying in on discussions between health Ministers and Tory by tens of billions of pounds. donor David Meller.Meller was later handed a £163 million contract for PPE despite his company having no track Jane Hunt: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? record of producing PPE. I wonder whether Mr Meller will be making any more donations to the Conservative Dan Carden: No, I do not have time. party any time soon—he certainly must be flush for cash. Despite the enormous sums being spent, PPE was GeorgePascoe-WatsonandTorypeerLordO’Shaughnessy, still not making it to the frontline. There was a huge chairman and senior adviser of the lobbying firm Portland disconnect between the boasts being made by Ministers Communications, were appointed as advisers at the in Parliament and the reality on the ground, where key Department of Health. They quite literally split their 393WH Covid-19: NAO Report on 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: NAO Report on 394WH Government Procurement Government Procurement time between advising the Government on their covid Dan Carden: It remains completely inappropriate. response and advising their corporate clients on what In the words of The Sunday Times authors, was going on in Government. Lord O’Shaughnessy took part in calls with Boston Consulting Group, a “As the government mounted a war effort to combat Covid-19, it has instead resembled more of a ‘chumocracy’. This is a world Portland Communications client, which went on to be in which ministers have turned to friends with links to the handed a £21 million contract from Government. Conservatives.” Of course, if anyone has a problem with any of this, While the British public continue to make huge personal they could take it up with the Government’santi-corruption sacrifices, a privileged group of business people with champion, the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare close connections to the Government has turned huge (John Penrose), who is here with us today in Westminster profits from the pandemic. What is perhaps most Hall. He is also a Conservative MP and the husband of remarkable is that Ministers actually created a VIP Dido Harding, the Conservative peer appointed to head high-priority lane for companies bidding for contracts, the nation’s test and trace programme. Her appointment which were put forward by Government officials, Ministers’ is now facing a possible judicial review. offices, MPs and Members of the House of Lords. It is not just a perception of cronyism; we now know that John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con): Will the the system was rigged, with privileged access granted to hon. Gentleman give way? companies with connections to top politicians. These favoured companies were 10 times more likely to be Dan Carden: I will of course give way, as I have successful than those without political connections. This mentioned the hon. Gentleman. flies in face of one of the key principles of procurement: that suppliers should be on a level playing field. If this John Penrose: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving happened in any other country,we would call it corruption. way. He is making some important points. However, I There can be no justification for the Government will just say in response to the charges he is making withholding the names of fast-tracked companies allowed against myself and my wife that he really ought to to jump the queue, often at the expense of more proven confirm that he is aware that the anti-corruption champion’s competitors. Transparency is a fundamental principle; role has never had—since it was first created under the public have the right to know how their money has Tony Blair—investigatory powers; those are rightly held been spent. The NAO’s investigation focused on at arm’s length from political leadership. That has always 20 contracts, and its revelations could just be the tip of been the case, and therefore to imply that there is some the iceberg. There must be a full independent investigation sort of investigation that I should be conducting is into Government contracts granted during covid-19. misleading and dangerous. Could the hon. Gentleman also confirm that he is More than 100,000 people have now signed a aware that both my role as anti-corruption tsar and my parliamentary petition calling for a public inquiry. The wife’s role, which he has just mentioned, are unpaid and Government must, as a bare minimum, implement the that she is not the accounting officer for NHS Test and NAO recommendations. They must end the VIP lane, if Trace, which is a position held by a full-time civil they have not already done so, and return to undertaking servant? competitive procurement. They must publish the full details of the companies that pass through the VIP lane, Finally, can the hon. Gentleman confirm that since and the sources of their referral. In a number of other both my wife and I are parliamentarians, and therefore countries, including Ukraine and Colombia, details about have to make declarations in the Register of Members’ emergency covid contracts must be published within Financial Interests, he is not implying, and would not 24 hours. If they can do it, why can’t we? try to imply, that either of us has gained inappropriately in any way from our respective roles? The Government must embed open contracting systems into their procurement processes. Their forthcoming Dan Carden: On that last point, I can say I certainly Green Paper is an opportunity to go even further, to never made that accusation. My point would be that it rewrite the rules of procurement to prevent such flagrant is inappropriate that he is in the position he is in as conflicts of interest in the future. I will return to the anti-corruption champion. How can a Conservative Green Paper in a moment, but let me briefly talk about MP be in charge of overseeing corruption when the the advisory panel that is informing the Green Paper. Government of the day is a Conservative Government? The Government’sprocurement transformation advisory panel contains some voices that are welcome in shaping John Penrose rose— Government procurement policy—the University of Sussex’s Centre for the Study of Corruption, for instance, Dan Carden: No. In the words of The Sunday Times is one of them. However, there are serious concerns authors— about other appointments to the panel, most notably Amazon. Amazon has already been awarded 82 central John Penrose: On a point of order, Ms Eagle. It is Government contracts, worth £225 million, in the past important to note that ever since the role of anti-corruption five years, and has a deal enabling local councils to buy champion was invented, it has, under Labour Governments supplies in one marketplace. The manner in which as well as Conservative, always been held by an Amazon is embedding itself into national and regional MP—sometimes a Minister—who is a member of the public procurement is, in the words of Paul Monaghan governing party of the day. of the Fair Tax Mark, “truly frightening”. How can it be right that Amazon should be given Ms Angela Eagle (in the Chair): That was not a point such a position of influence over Government procurement of order. policy,while raking in hundreds of millions in Government 395WH Covid-19: NAO Report on 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: NAO Report on 396WH Government Procurement Government Procurement [Dan Carden] 9.53 am Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) (Con): It is a contracts itself? Considering Amazon’s record on meeting pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Ms Eagle. I its tax obligations, why should a company that refuses congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton to pay its fair share into the public purse be in a position (Dan Carden) on securing this important debate. I to profit so handsomely from it? Can the Minister tell absolutely accept that there are issues, that procurement me by what process members of the procurement is extremely difficult and that lessons need to be learned. transformation advisory panel were appointed? What steps, if any, were taken to identify and address potential I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for securing the conflicts of interest, and will the minutes of the meeting debate, and for the latter-day conversion of many be published? Opposition Members to an interest in the area in question. Having sat on the Public Accounts Committee, I did In the same week the NAO report was published, the not see many of them at the time, or over the past UN published its evaluation of the UK’s implementation 18 months, raising this issue. However, I accept that of the UN convention against corruption, in which it there are issues to be raised, and I am keen to raise calls on the UK to take a tougher approach to handling them. Unfortunately, while in my view the issues need conflicts of interest—especially those at the top of to be raised in a spirit of constructiveness, that was not Government. When we look at how other Governments evident in the hon. Gentleman’s comments. They need across the world have responded, not only to covid but to be understood with an acknowledgement of the to procurement specifically, there is a lot for the UK to context in which we work. Failure to understand those be embarrassed about. In Sweden, Slovakia, Estonia points means we will not push forward the discussion in and Latvia, the number of contracts awarded using a useful manner. open competition went up during the pandemic. Having listened to the hon. Member for Liverpool, The upcoming Green Paper is an opportunity to put Walton I am afraid that the selective quotations from in place measures that would begin to restore some trust the NAO report, which I have also read, need to be in the system. The Government must now consider corrected. He said that action was taken without the implementing end-to-end digital transparency for all usual Cabinet Office spending controls, whereas, on Government contracts from planning through to tender, page 11, the report states that award, spending and implementation. The Government “we recognise that these were exceptional circumstances”. must establish an effective conflict of interest regime, including a publicly accessible database of conflict of The hon. Gentleman said that things were undertaken interest declarations. To support that, they should extend before any processes were standardised, yet, as the the remit of the independent adviser on Ministers’ report states clearly on page 32, even before standardisation interests to give them independent statutory status, occurred civil servants were able to including the power to investigate conflicts of interest “research and report on financial details of companies and the and to take action. background details of company directors within four hours at the peak, and produced reports rating suppliers as red, amber or green.” The Government should look to introduce conditions Nowhere in the report does the word “mismanagement” requiring companies bidding for contracts to meet the appear—not in any of the 48 pages. highest standards to ensure that they are providing real social value. Companies should receive public contracts The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton talked about only if they meet their tax obligations and environmental dozens of experienced local suppliers being ignored. I standards, and if they recognise trade unions. had similar suppliers that I was sending in, but they were not ignored. Page 8 states that This debate goes to the heart of a much wider malaise. For decades now, people have been steadily shut out of “the Department of Health & Social Care and the Cabinet Office put in place a clearance board to approve PPE contracts more decisions affecting their lives. Wealth and power have than £5 million. PPE procurements were subject to normal become more highly concentrated in the hands of a few. departmental spending controls, including HM Treasury approval”. Wealth translates to influence, and influence back to On page 9, the report states: wealth. The revolving door between big business, media, finance and politics never stops spinning. The only way “The cross-government PPE team established an eight-stage to counter that is by deepening democracy and process to assess and process offers of support to supply PPE”. accountability to the public at every level. The Government’s The hon. Gentleman made a strong statement that own anti-corruption strategy warns: the system was rigged, and yet page 9 states that both “Corruption threatens our national security and prosperity, lanes, including the high-priority lane, both at home and overseas. Unchecked, it can erode public “used the same eight-stage process to assess and process offers.” confidence in the domestic and international institutions that we I was on some of the calls—with Members in this all depend upon.” room—where we all directed statements and leads into The obscene profiteering and cronyism that has been that lane, without any expectation of favours whatsoever, the hallmark of the UK’s response to covid-19 has but recognising that we were trying to ensure the best further eroded what little trust people have left in our for our hospitals and the people on the frontline dealing political system. The need to challenge conflicts of with such difficult times. interest, extend democracy and fight for a robust system of checks and balances to hold power to account has In the 19 seconds I have left, the question that the never been more pressing. hon. Gentleman failed to answer was the strategic one. In a period of emergency there is a choice: to prioritise Ms Angela Eagle (in the Chair): I shall begin by output or process. Ideally, both would be prioritised, imposing a three-minute time limit on speeches, but I but if I had a choice, I would make sure that the PPE think it will have to go down to two before the end of was in my hospital. I hope that some of the Opposition the debate. Members here will answer that question in the coming hour. 397WH Covid-19: NAO Report on 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: NAO Report on 398WH Government Procurement Government Procurement 9.55 am interests of accountability, transparency and overall good governance, it is wholly wrong for a Government Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): To listen to the hon. to hide behind such unfortunate circumstances while Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley), one dismissing the concerns of Opposition politicians. We would think everything was rosy in the garden—of have asked probing questions—and yes, levelled course, it is not. The Government have adopted processes criticisms—while seeking to provide appropriate scrutiny that abandon the decades-old traditions of checking of and seek clarity on the decisions made in Whitehall value for money when spending in the private sector. offices. Such endeavours are prerequisites of a healthy How else can we explain that, for example, £95 billion parliamentary debate. of outsourcing resulted in a 20% increase in contracts, and the £14.3 billion of additional expenditure on Despite that, it seems that the level of immaturity contracts that had been let? How else can we explain and arrogance that has infected the Conservative party that many contracts were let without tendering processes of 2020 is tantamount to that of a petulant schoolchild: of any kind? Some £10 billion of taxpayers’ money was on one hand demanding praise and pats on the head for spent without any form of tendering at all. To rely on the things it gets right, while at the same time demonstrating the process that the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire outright dismissal when pulled up on its litany of failures. has just described simply does not convince. One billion Most of my constituents work in the private sector and pounds have gone to Tory chums—these are staggering their livelihoods depend on it, so it is pretty galling to amounts of money. hear, repeatedly, the superficial retort that our opposition is based on some false hatred of anything beyond the I know it is not the subject of the audit report, but public sector. given the facts that emerged when Carillion went bust—that the Government had abandoned any attempt whatever In a feat of human ingenuity and brilliance, we now to monitor the delivery of the contract—it is extraordinary have a vaccine being rolled out across the country. At that no further steps have been taken to protect the the same time, a week is barely seen out without yet public purse. This is taxpayer money being wasted on a another story of Government cronyism emerging; colossal scale, and in an unjustifiable way. When we companies with no track record or experience in delivering consider that outsourcing is costing each household in comprehensive outcomes on anything are awarded contracts this country £3,500, the scale is extraordinary. to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ cash. The only thing the public can visibly There is an old expression, is there not, about never note as the primary commissioning criterion is the wasting a crisis? The Tories have not wasted this one. obvious and apparent connections to the governing They have handed over billions of pounds to their Tory party. chums in the private sector in a wasteful manner, with no real effort to monitor contracts or secure value for Only last week, a Government Minister, Lord Bethell, money. When people discover that it is costing each was asked directly whether the Government intended to household £3,500, I think the general response will be publish a list of companies that were contracted to that this is a massive rip-off—some would go further supply PPE as a result of the high-priority lane. Owing and suggest that our British standards of probity, which to the so-called “commercial implications”, the Government lasted for more than a century, have been abandoned made clear their intention not to publish the list of and have become so corrupted as to no longer be suppliers. That sort of culture and practice has been acceptable. Whatever one’s view on that, it is hard to heavily criticised by the NAO. disagree that the Government are spending taxpayers’ money like confetti at a wedding—in a most wasteful 10.1 am and reckless manner. Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Eagle. Ms Angela Eagle (in the Chair): I am reducing the The NAO report raises serious questions that the speaking limit to two and a half minutes in order to get Government must address on both competency and everybody in. cronyism. We have heard some of the numbers cited in the NAO report today from other Members, and they 9.59 am are staggering. Clearly, in the midst of a national—and Paula Barker (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab): Thank indeed, an international—health emergency, where every you, Ms Eagle. It is a pleasure to serve under your country in the world was scrambling for supplies, standard chairmanship. procurement rules and processes needed to be relaxed; I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, clearly, in such a competitive market, prices would Walton (Dan Carden) on securing this important debate. skyrocket and some mistakes would be made. It is, of course, regrettable that this comes on the back However, the headless-chicken approach that the of the National Audit Office investigation into Government Government have pursued led to the procurement of procurement during the pandemic. The report itself, as millions of products that were not fit for purpose or hon. Members have pointed out and no doubt will that simply never materialised. For instance, £364 million continue to do so during this debate, is critical of the was spent on full-body coveralls, with only 432,000 of Government’s failure to guarantee transparency that those items delivered and used. That amounts to £840 per should provide absolute confidence in the use of public bodysuit, which is completely unacceptable. funds. We now know from the NAO report that companies I am sure Members from across the House will placed on the VIP list were 10 times more likely to win sympathise with the hand the Government have been contracts in the early months of the pandemic. There dealt this year. No one could have anticipated a crisis on were no criteria for referrals to the fast-track lane, and the scale we have witnessed, and it is natural that the source of the referral was not always recorded, so mistakes have been made along the way. However, in the I hope the Minister will outline clearly what criteria 399WH Covid-19: NAO Report on 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: NAO Report on 400WH Government Procurement Government Procurement [Munira Wilson] The Government need to immediately outline a list of all contracts awarded during the pandemic that are were used to assess offers from MPs, peers and Ministers, unlawful, terminate them and procure further services what processes were followed and what due diligence by way of fair and lawful competition. Will the Minister was undertaken on their credibility and suitability. commit to that today? Ultimately, procurement for the As we have heard already, many companies with no public sector needs to be re-established, with the reliance prior experience were awarded contracts, and others on management consultants scrapped. People deserve with good experience were turned down. The lack of to know that their money is being spent on keeping transparency, the lack of risk management and the lack them safe, in a way that is fair and above board. We of a paper trail in relation to billions of pounds of demand action and we demand answers. public funds absolutely stinks. Integrity, objectivity and accountability are among the seven Nolan principles of public life; these have 10.7 am been tested to destruction on numerous occasions, not Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Streatham) (Lab): It is a pleasure least in the context of the whopping procurement decisions to serve under your chairship, Ms Eagle. I congratulate detailed in the NAO report. While NHS staff were my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton wrapping themselves in bin bags and dying in the line of (Dan Carden) on securing this important debate, because duty, and while schoolchildren were making DIY PPE, with every new story that emerges, the public are right millions of pounds of public money was being siphoned to be asking questions, as this country goes through one off to inexperienced companies, many with links to the of its most difficult times. They should not be reliant on Conservative party. the media or independent investigations for facts. Ministers must now commit to a thorough independent Transparency and accountability should be coming from inquiry at the earliest possible opportunity, as the Liberal our Government. Democrats have been calling for. We should establish a cross-party committee to examine all contracts awarded This Government may have a majority, but that does for the remainder of the pandemic, not least in the not give them the right to do whatever they like. The roll-out of the vaccines. National Audit Office investigation has rightly shone a light on what has been an absurd outsourcing strategy. 10.4 am In opening the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton outlined all the usual checks and Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab): It is a balances that were completely disregarded. The pandemic pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Eagle. I was unforeseeable, and we will not criticise people for thank my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton not being able to prepare for something that we could (Dan Carden) for securing this important debate. not see coming, but a country of this advancement and From wasting taxpayers’ money on PPE that was not with the level of resources that we have, has the ability fit for purpose and Serco’s inept contact tracing system, to act quickly. It should have been able to act quicker to to setting up a VIP procurement channel for people secure PPE and testing kits within the rules. Rather with political connections, this Government have than putting our trust and money in smaller companies disregarded their own rules, operated secretly and made in this country and local actors with experience, the dangerous decisions that have jeopardised public health. Government wasted millions of pounds of taxpayers’ The OECD foreign bribery report found that public money corner-cutting with private contractors for procurement is particularly vulnerable to corruption. It substandard products and services. is worth bearing that in mind when we look more closely at some of the eye-watering examples that Members Gareth Davies, the head of the NAO, said: have set out. “While we recognise that these were exceptional circumstances, it remains essential that decisions are properly documented and Jane Hunt: Will the hon. Lady give way? made transparent if Government is to maintain public trust that taxpayers’ money is being spent appropriately and fairly.” Nadia Whittome: No. The hon. Lady has made many interventions already. Let me tell Members here, on That is a very fair statement. However, 10% of the behalf of our key workers in Nottingham and across suppliers were referred through political channels and, the country, that these dodgy dealings might feel like by contrast, only 1% of suppliers with no links had a games to Ministers,but they have very real life consequences chance of winning a contract. How fair is that? Some for people across the country. Myself, my colleagues £10 billion-worth of contracts were awarded without and thousands of frontline care workers struggled during competition, and almost 500 suppliers with links to the heat of the pandemic, when it was widely reported politicians or senior officials were allowed to pitch that a lack of adequate PPE and staff testing in care directly for work. homes created a major risk of the virus spreading. We The hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee were smeared in the media, including by Members on Rowley) talked about putting protection over process, the Government Benches. but how can that be the case when, at the beginning of Let me state again for the record: the lucrative contracts the pandemic, we had so many people begging for PPE that this Government were handing out to their pals led and tests, while PPE and testing kits were being produced to failures and delays that had a direct impact on in this country? Suppliers did not receive contracts from frontline workers during the pandemic. People die when the Government and so were forced to sell their products the Government get these things wrong. People have to the EU and other countries. The case of PestFix, died. Does the Minister unequivocally accept the which is a vermin control company, shows how bad the recommendations of the National Audit Office report, Government’s outsourcing has been. We really need to and by what date will they be implemented? get a grip on this. 401WH Covid-19: NAO Report on 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: NAO Report on 402WH Government Procurement Government Procurement 10.10 am Due to the economic downturn, serious financial decisions will have to be made in future to protect our public Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) finances, yet so much has been wasted and given away (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, to friends. The need for those financial decisions is Ms Eagle. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for made more pressing by the way in which the procurement Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden) for securing this debate. decisions were made. This is public money, and our I hope that, in the short time I have, I can impress on the communities demand answers. Government the need to acknowledge the mistakes that have been made and the lessons that need to be learned. Since the report came out, the Prime Minister, Cabinet At the end of my remarks, I will offer a constructive Ministers and Conservative MPs have been at pains to way forward, and I hope the Minister takes it very say that the contracts were rushed, but hon. Members seriously. should not forget that we had an exercise that showed what was needed in a pandemic. I believe that that still There is a company in my constituency called Arco, has not come to light. It should be brought to light now which was founded in 1884. It is a local family-run so that we can learn the lessons in advance of wave company that specialises in safety equipment. All it No. 3. does is PPE and safety equipment. It is acknowledged as being world-leading in its field, and it is the only All hon. Members will pay tribute to the civil servants safety distributor that has its own independently accredited and armed services planners who played a key role in testing laboratory in the UK, so it really is a world-leading the huge logistical feat of managing. Without their expert. During the pandemic, it took the decision to efforts, where would we be? However,we can all remember prioritise its existing clients, which were healthcare the moment when we were watching on Sky News the institutions and food production institutions. aeroplane about to land, full of wonderful PPE from Turkey. Of course, that PPE arrived at great cost to the Arco prides itself on having incredibly high standards. taxpayer, only to be found completely inappropriate Hon. Members would therefore expect that it would be and not to standard. That is just one snapshot. There at the top of the list of any Government procurement has been a litany of errors, not just a few honest system looking for PPE distribution suppliers. In fact, if mistakes. It is clear that we need a new framework for hon. Members google “UK world-leading PPE suppliers”, procurement, particularly in advance of Brexit, after they will see Arco right there at the top. Sadly, during which we will not necessarily have the rigour that European the pandemic, it found that its products were unwanted. law gives us. It was floored by the Government response to creating a new procurement structure, which led to confusion. I have three questions for the Minister. When will Suppliers lacked information and clarity about who information relating to the remaining unpublished contracts they should be working with, and the failure to obtain be released? Will the Government commit to implement decisions and sign-off led to failed orders. in full the recommendations of the NAO report on the rapid awarding of contracts? Thirdly, will the Minister Arco tells me that the online portal system had one commit to ensuring that all contract decisions will be single email address for all inquiries, and I have heard covered by a future inquiry, with powers to prosecute since that it was flooded with offers from companies all any wrongdoing? around the UK, with no real process for sifting those that were more genuine or reputable. That single point 10.15 am of contact did not require suppliers to provide information about their expertise, experience or record in sourcing Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab): It is a or providing safety equipment. In fact, it seemed to lack pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Eagle, and I the quality control that we would expect. No proof was congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, required of the ability to meet obligations under PPE Walton (Dan Carden) on securing the debate. regulations when making offers to supply to the Yes, we are living through unprecedented times, but it Government. Arco tells me that genuine suppliers were is disgusting that this pandemic has seen the wealth of crowded out. billionaires rise by a third, while the poorest and most Arco has produced a 10-point plan with vulnerable are left destitute. They have been evicted recommendations to improve the future processes and from their homes and had their rights at work and ensure that high-quality PPE is made at all times. It has wages slashed, with the number of universal credit written to the Government, and I will be writing to the applicants going through the roof. The report has proved Minister with its 10-point plan. I urge the Minister to beyond doubt that the Tories are profiting from this have a conversation with Arco. Let us learn the lessons pandemic by handing lucrative contracts to their mates from the mistakes that have been made and ensure that through the back door. A total lack of transparency they never happen again. and adequate documentation has been laid bare. At best, it is proof of a highly incompetent Government 10.12 am who cannot get the paperwork right. At worst, it is a deliberate attempt to cover the tracks of cronyism, to Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): I avoid scrutiny and to withhold information from the thank my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton public. (Dan Carden) for his excellent speech at the beginning Hundreds of contracts have been fast-tracked, and of the debate. This is a fantastic opportunity to shine a sources of referrals have gone undocumented. Documents light on this issue; sadly, the Government have been are missing, and the pattern of suppliers being awarded found lacking. contracts despite poor due-diligence ratings raises serious We know that huge sums of money have been spent concerns around conflicts of interest and the lack of a since March. The National Audit Office report analyses proper process. The staggering report has exposed the £18 billion, but we know that the sums are even higher. fact that some contracts were awarded retrospectively 403WH Covid-19: NAO Report on 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: NAO Report on 404WH Government Procurement Government Procurement [Kim Johnson] and they have also called it cronyism, but if it was happening in another country, they would call it by a after work had been carried out, including £3.2 million different name. I will leave it to the imagination of paid to Deloitte in July for work that it had been Members present and our constituents as to what that undertaking since March, jeopardising outcomes and name would be. accountability.Over £10 million-worth of covid contracts were awarded directly without any competitive tender 10.19 am process at all. One shameful example details the Department Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab): It is a pleasure for Health and Social Care handing a contract for to serve under your chairship, Ms Eagle, and I congratulate testing vials to the Secretary of State’s mate after a my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton WhatsApp exchange, despite his having no experience (Dan Carden) on securing this vital debate. I would like whatever in medical supplies. to respond to the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire With all this evidence laid bare in black and white, (Lee Rowley) by saying that many of us were not at the can the Minister tell me how the public can have any PAC 18 months ago because we were not in this place, trust that the Government are truly making decisions in and I am pleased to see so many of the new intake—at our best interests? The revelations from the National least seven of us—challenging the Government, as is Audit Office confirm once again that the Tories are our role. happy to shell out millions to their mates, while the rest The Select Committee on Public Administration and of us are told to tighten our belts as we are forced to Constitutional Affairs, of which I am a member, has pick up the tab for this pandemic. The sacrifices of been looking at lessons learned from the covid response, working people in fighting this pandemic have been including the appointment process of key figures in the immense, serving communities and keeping the country UK’s response, and I was pleased that this point has going. The outsourcing clearly shows that the Government been raised by Members. We found that there was a have no concern for their responsibilities or for getting clear lack of due process, likely conflicts of interest, and value for money for the taxpayer, with outsourcing potential cronyism. Lord Evans, chair of the Committee impacting on workers. As the Government hand out on Standards in Public Life, said only a couple of weeks contracts to outsourcing firms, can the Minister tell me ago during our inquiry that “urgent procedures” exist in how they are ensuring that the workers are protected times of urgent need, but added: and treated fairly? “Even if many of the people are exactly the right people, it is better if people know they are the right people because there has 10.17 am been proper, open competition.” That is a key theme, whether those roles are paid or Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab): It is a pleasure unpaid. to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Eagle. I thank That theme has also come through in the NAO’s my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton report, which is damning. It shows that contracts have (Dan Carden) for securing the debate. been awarded without due diligence, with a lack of For the vast majority of the country, this pandemic documentation, no clear audit trail or transparency. In has been an utter misery. It has been eight long months some instances contracts were awarded retrospectively, of loneliness, hardship and bereavement. For a wealthy for work already done. Hundreds of contracts have few, however, it has been something quite different. For been fast-tracked for companies through the Cabinet them, it has been opportunity to cash in on connections, Office’s VIP process, and while this may have been the and, boy, have they cashed in. Take, for example, same process as referred to earlier, many companies Conservative donor David Meller, who has donated were referred by Ministers, officials, MPs and peers. more than £60,000 to the party in the past decade, The NAO found that firms in the VIP lane were far including thousands to support the leadership bid of more likely to be awarded contracts than those that the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael were not—a one in 10 chance, against a chance of Gove), who is now the Minister for the Cabinet Office—the approximately one in 100 for those outside the priority Department that happens to be in charge of PPE lane. That is disgraceful. procurement. Mr Meller’s company ordinarily specialises The sheer lack of due process has led to the waste of in home and beauty products, but has now been awarded millions of pounds. I will not go through a list of the more than £163 million in PPE contracts. That is nearly companies involved, because many have been mentioned a tenfold increase on its entire 2019 turnover. already, but I just want to say that this angers me. In the Such deals are far from isolated. A small, loss-making public sector, we have many workers who have now firm run by a Conservative councillor was handed a faced 10 years of austerity, who cannot even justify £156 million contract to import PPE. A company run getting Post-It notes from the store cupboard, yet this by the former business associate of Conservative peer Government are mismanaging taxpayers’ money and Baroness Mone was handed a £122 million in a PPE are refusing to give public sector workers a pay rise. It is contract just seven weeks after it was set up. A deal to shameful. hand a private equity company a £252 million contract for face masks, which were never used, was brokered by 10.22 am a senior adviser to the International Trade Secretary, Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): It is a pleasure to who also happens to sit on the board of the private serve under your chairship, Ms Eagle, and I congratulate equity company. my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton The National Audit Office report found that companies (Dan Carden) on securing this important debate. I will with political contacts were 10 times more likely to be highlight the issue of scrubs, and ask the Minister to go handed contracts than those without such contacts. The back to the Department and sort out the national newspapers describe these dealings as “chumocracy”, scrubs crisis, which is still carrying on and has not been 405WH Covid-19: NAO Report on 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: NAO Report on 406WH Government Procurement Government Procurement addressed properly by the NAO report. However, that of Exercise Cygnus and allowed the PPE stockpile that report is damning about procurement processes, and we did have to go out of date and dwindle—a dwindling highlights a failure and mismanagement of the process stockpile, by the way, that we were paying a private for procurement contracts. company £11 million a year to sit on. At the start of the crisis, there was a shortage of The way in which warnings were ignored created the scrubs, and volunteers across the country jumped into conditions for the get-rich-quick specialists to thrive action, including in the Minister’s own constituency, in and for the taxpayer to foot the bill for overpriced PPE Upminster. That is understandable: there was a short-term from people who had never sold as much as a pair of shortage of scrubs, which was met by amazing volunteers. gloves the previous year. At the same time, companies However, why are those volunteers still there, having to with the contacts, experience and even the stock were fulfil contracts from hospitals that are saying they still given the run-around, so we had the scandal of doctors have a shortage of scrubs all these months later? What and nurses bringing homemade PPE to protect themselves, is happening in the procurement process that means we while British companies were selling their stock abroad are still facing this? because they could not get their own Government to Putney Scrub Hub is an amazing place. The volunteers take an interest in it. We then saw the absurd spectacle who run it are incredible, and their leader is an established of a Secretary of State proclaiming on national television leader in her field of producing scrub robes. She will not that help was on the way with a shipment of PPE from go back to work: she has taken time off until this scrubs Turkey, most of which never arrived or turned out to be crisis can be sorted out. She is fulfilling contracts from unusable. That was an international embarrassment King’s College Hospital, Central Middlesex Hospital, that we must never let happen again. the West London Kidney Patients Association, Royal When the Minister responds, will she set out exactly Brompton Hospital and Northwick Park Hospital, as how many millions of items of PPE that were purchased well as meeting the increasing need of vaccine clinics for either never showed up or were found to be unusable? scrubs. What is going on with procurement? In response Will she tell us how much of that has already been paid to a written question, I was told that NHS Supply for and whether we have received any refunds? So far, I Chain is the main provider of scrubs, so I hope the have not heard any contrition from the Government Minister can go back and ask questions of NHS Supply about the way in which procurement has been handled, Chain, to find out what is going wrong. The NHS and we need to hear some today, because the public will Supply Chain hotel services tower has not put out any not forget the arrogance until long after the last person tenders for new contracts in the past 12 months, so who has been vaccinated. are these 14 suppliers who have the contracts? Why are they not stepping up to the plate? Why are hospital staff 10.27 pm phoning up and finding out that there is a three-month Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP): It is a pleasure to delay in getting scrubs? serve under your chairmanship, Ms Eagle. I add my Back at the hospitals and clinics, there are shortages. own words of congratulations to the hon. Member for This means that NHS staff have to go home, or are Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden) for securing the debate. being told to bring in tracksuits, which is very damaging In his opening remarks, he did an absolutely excellent to morale. Will NHS Supply Chain meet with the leader job of dissecting the morass of contracts that have risen of Putney Scrub Hub to talk about what the problems to public attention for all the wrong reasons and do not, are with the procurement chains? Why are there billions on any objective measure, pass the sniff test. of pounds’ worth of contracts on one side, yet our NHS We have heard much about what the report does tell staff do not have their scrubs? Will we enable the us, so before the Minister responds, let us be absolutely Putney Scrub Hub volunteers to at last put down their clear about what the NAO says the report does not tell scissors and go home? us. Page 44 of the NAO report states: “This report should not be considered as offering positive 10.24 am assurance over aspects of any of these contracts which are not detailed in the report, or as offering any legal opinion on the use Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): It of public procurement regulations… We have not drawn any is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Eagle. As one of conclusions regarding the value for money of the procurement”. the people who originally asked the NAO to look into The report was drawn up on the basis of a risk-based the handling of PPE contracts, I was of course extremely examination of 20 contracts, which are a fraction of the interested in what its report had to say. I asked for that 8,600 new contracts that had been awarded by 31 July. because throughout the summer, suppliers contacted To be clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with me as they were angry about being overlooked, especially taking that risk-based approach. That core analysis is given that they had put in many hours of work to get done to find what issues emerge, and my goodness, what some of the contracts. Their anger turned to rage when issues have emerged. It seems that the NAO knew they saw that some of the companies to which contracts exactly where it should be sticking its spade in the had been awarded had no background in PPE and ground when it started this work. sometimes no background as a company at all. In fact, Of those new contracts, £0.7 billion-worth were awarded their chief qualification was a connection to the Tory through contract extensions; £0.2 billion-worth through party. competitive tendering; and £6.7 billion-worth through How did we get into that position in the first place? existing framework call-offs. Those contracts are not Of course, there was unprecedented demand, but it the ones that should cause anyone any particular concern. seems that the Government failed to heed their own Rather, scrutiny should rightly focus on the £10.5 billion- warnings about the readiness of this country to deal worth of contracts that were direct awards with no with a pandemic. They ignored the recommendations competition. 407WH Covid-19: NAO Report on 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: NAO Report on 408WH Government Procurement Government Procurement [Richard Thomson] access, pure and simple. I was not the first Member to refer to suspicions of a crony virus working in Government, Obviously, the Government have to have the ability but the suspicion lingers. For too long, too many people to give direct contract awards in situations of extreme too close to the centre of Government have won too urgency,as the lawallows.Rightly,however,strict conditions many contracts, of which too few are properly documented are attached to that. I do not think that anyone would or can demonstrate adequate value for money. disagree that those conditions are likely to have been On 15 March, the Health Secretary said: met in the very early weeks of the crisis, but what came “Our approach to tackling coronavirus is to be as clear and thereafter is an entirely different question. Within those transparent as possible—because all that matters is getting this contracts, whenever they were awarded, it is important response right ”. to be able to get a sense of what was proportionate, In her summing up, the Minister will no doubt seek where conflicts of interest may have arisen, how those virtue in the fact that the Government were, in their conflicts of interest were managed, what steps were own eyes, getting on with the job at an incredibly taken to mitigate the risks and how value for money was difficult time in a global pandemic. We must be clear: if ensured as far as possible. All too often, as the report that is the defence mustered for the content of this highlights, inadequate records were kept, which means report, it is an excuse that is beginning to run on empty. that transparency has been diminished and, in many The report stated: cases, it is not possible to demonstrate how particular decisions were reached and why. “This has diminished public transparency, and the lack of adequate documentation means we cannot give assurance that I accept that, in cases of urgency, sometimes processes government has adequately mitigated the increased risks arising need to be circumvented. The law allows for that. Certain from emergency procurement or applied appropriate commercial corners will be cut; certain niceties might be overlooked. practices in all cases. While we recognise that these were exceptional The fact that this took place does not overshadow the circumstances, there are standards that the public sector will many genuine efforts of Government employees to procure always need to apply if it is to maintain public trust.” swiftly under conditions of urgency and great difficulty, There is an urgent need for openness in these processes but the importance of record keeping is absolutely key so that the public can maintain their trust in them and to maintaining transparency, so that we know that the trust can be restored in the Government’s approach. right decisions were taken for the right reasons. The fact That is why today I repeat the SNP’s call for a full public that the Government are still citing the need to procure inquiry into the awarding of tenders and into those who with extreme urgency as a reason for persisting with this had access to UK Government meetings preparatory to method of procurement, even after the summer, does procurement awards throughout the health emergency. not wash at all. The Government absolutely must also accept unreservedly, As we have heard, there are serious public concerns without any qualification and in full, the recommendations about certain contracts that were awarded. In some made in the National Audit Office report. If they are to cases, those who were awarded the contracts were unable escape the suggestion that they have been allowing to fulfil them either at a reasonable price or to the preferential access and enrichment to a select few under required level of quality. In some cases, those who won the cover of an unprecedented emergency, they can them already enjoyed a closeness with the Government really do no less than that. and some members of the Government, which was inappropriate at best. 10.35 am It is remarkable that people with no experience of manufacturing, who were simply acting as middle men Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): It looking for a slice, could find themselves in a priority is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Eagle. queue for consideration. The fact that there was a I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for priority queue is a matter for concern. Although both Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden) on securing this important lanes were supposed to be using the same gateway and debate. The National Audit Office investigation into scrutiny process, a stark set of numbers emerge from Government procurement during the covid-19 pandemic that analysis: 47 out of 493 contracts, or 9.5%, of those reveals a series of calamitous errors in how decisions in the priority lane went on to secure a contract award, were made and taxpayers’ money was wasted. It is compared with only 104 out of 14,892, or less than imperative that Members have the opportunity to debate 0.75%, of those in the normal lane. its findings. Many contracts were awarded without any kind of I am grateful to all hon. Members who have spoken financial due diligence being undertaken on the companies. in the debate. Many important points were made. Time In some cases, due diligence was done after the awards does not permit me to mention every contribution, but I were given and came back as an amber or red condition. will highlight my hon. Friend the Member for Hemsworth I accept that in times of urgency one may need to press (Jon Trickett), who rightly raised the Carillion procurement on and take the chance. However, the further one goes scandal and asked why lessons do not seem to have been into the process, the less justifiable it is to take that risk. learned. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham To do financial due diligence in that way on contracts East (Nadia Whittome) spoke from her direct experience worth not only tens of millions of pounds, but in excess of the consequences of procurement failure for social of £100 million, is a bit like going bungee jumping and care staff working on the frontline. My hon. Friend the only worrying about whether the cord is attached after Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma embarking on the journey downwards. Frankly, it is Hardy) gave the powerful example of Arco, a world-leading beyond belief that this was allowed to happen. PPE supplier in her constituency that was ignored by The differentiation between the lanes was not based the Government. My hon. Friend the Member for on evidence of any ability to deliver, nor was the aim to Putney (Fleur Anderson) raised her important work speed up the procurement process; it was preferential highlighting the ongoing national scrubs crisis. 409WH Covid-19: NAO Report on 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: NAO Report on 410WH Government Procurement Government Procurement The Opposition recognise that, when faced with a With procurement happening so quickly under national emergency on the scale of the global covid-19 emergency measures, the Government should have been pandemic, the Government needed to act quickly to creating more transparency,opening up to greater scrutiny, procure goods and services, but the National Audit so that the public could have confidence in the pandemic Office found that, even allowing for accelerated processes, response. Instead, the opposite appears to be the case. proper checks and controls were not carried out. The Again and again, the Government shrugged their shoulders report states that at revelations of crony contracts and failed to make any “procurement processes established by the cross-government PPE commitment— team enabled PPE to be purchased quickly, but some procurements were carried out before all key controls were put in place.” Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): The Seventy-one contracts, with a total value of £1.5 billion, hon. Lady is making a very serious allegation when she were awarded to suppliers before proper company checks talks about cronyism, implying corruption. On the basis were put in place. Even worse, some contracts were that the NAO report found no evidence that Ministers awarded only after the work had been completed, were involved in procurement decisions, at whom is she significantly increasing the risk of budget overspend directing those allegations? and poor performance, and more than half of the £17.3 billion awarded to suppliers was awarded directly Helen Hayes: I thank the hon. Gentleman, my former with no competition. colleague on the Select Committee, for his intervention. The report highlights the Government’s failure to set Cronyism and corruption are different in law. I am out clearly why they chose a particular supplier or how talking about cronyism. The important point that was risks from a lack of competition were identified and made by the National Audit Office and reiterated in the mitigated. The National Audit Office highlighted that debate today is that, when the Government have a that was critical scenario where normal rules are bypassed because of an “to ensure public trust in the fairness of the procurement process.” emergency, it is incumbent on the Government to have absolute transparency on connections, conflicts of interest, It is clear that public confidence has been hugely damaged routes taken and the reasons for decisions being made. I by this debacle. am sorry to tell the hon. Gentleman that the NAO has We have contracts awarded without key controls, found the Government wanting. What is lacking from awarded sometimes after the work had already been the Government is appropriate contrition and an completed, and often with no competition and without appropriately transparent response to those allegations adequate documentation. On top of that, we find that that the NAO has made. the Government again and again awarded contracts not to trusted long-term suppliers of PPE with a track Dan Carden: We know that £1.5 billion of the money record of delivery but to companies with strong links to spent has gone to companies linked to the Conservative friends and donors of the Tory party—chaos facilitating party. Does that not sufficiently warrant a further cronyism. independent investigation? With the huge gaps in transparency and company checks identified by the National Audit Office, the Helen Hayes: I agree with my hon. Friend’s point. I Government have serious questions to answer about the repeat: with procurement happening so quickly, under back door VIP special procurement route. How did it emergency measures, the Government should have been operate? Who had access? What weight was given to the creating more transparency,opening up to greater scrutiny, individual making a referral through the route in the so that the public could have confidence in the pandemic award of a contract? How many contracts were awarded response. Instead, the opposite appears to be the case. through the VIP route without competition, company Again and again, the Government shrugged their shoulders checks or adequate justification? at revelations of crony contracts and failed to make any Reputable British firms with a track record of delivery commitment even to publish a full list of the companies who wanted to help at a time of desperate need such as awarded contracts under the VIP route. Seren Plus—a long-term supplier of PPE to the NHS—were I ask the Minister to answer the following questions left to watch incredulously as inexperienced firms failed in responding to this debate. When will the Government to deliver. Ayanda Capital received £156 million for publish a full list of all the companies awarded contracts PPE that could not be used. PestFix, with barely any under the VIP route? Will she explain why the Government money in the bank and no track record of providing again and again failed to meet the requirement to PPE, received £160 million of taxpayers’ money, and publish contract awards within a timely manner during the Health Secretary’s pub landlord received £30 million the pandemic? That was an obligation that was not to provide vials, despite no track record in providing relaxed by the emergency legislation. Will she explain medical supplies. why trusted British firms were bypassed in favour of The real bottom line in all this is that frontline staff in companies with no track record of delivery? Will she our national health service and social care, putting their commit to a full investigation of the extent of cronyism lives on the line every single day and in desperate need in procurement throughout the pandemic? Most of protection, did not receive the PPE they needed for importantly, will she set out what the Government now weeks and weeks. We watched the heartbreaking footage intend to do to rebuild the trust and confidence of the of social care workers with no protection, hospital staff British public and British businesses in their broken reusing masks and gowns, while the Government flushed approach to procurement? millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money down the drain, employing firms with no track record, which unsurprisingly Ms Angela Eagle (in the Chair): Minister, please leave proved unable to deliver. a couple of minutes at the end for the response. 411WH Covid-19: NAO Report on 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: NAO Report on 412WH Government Procurement Government Procurement 10.44 am Regulation 32(2)(c) of the Public Contracts Regulations 2015, which predate the pandemic, explicitly allows for The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Julia emergency procedures, including direct award. No rules Lopez): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, were suspended, relaxed or changed. This was just a Ms Eagle. I thank the hon. Member for Liverpool, case of using existing legally compliant regulations for Walton (Dan Carden) for tabling an incredibly important the purpose for which they were intended. Similar debate, and all those making contributions today. I am approaches were taken by countries such as Japan, New also grateful to the NAO for the report. The care with Zealand and Finland. which we spend taxpayers’ money matters very deeply to public confidence in Government. In a situation of genuine crisis and extreme emergency, when we had to accept or reject offers in a matter of I do not wish this morning to present a carefully hours or days, it was simply not viable to run the usual constructed political argument that seeks to dismiss the procurement timescales, even if we took advantage of concerns that have been raised. I want instead to be accelerated processes, which still require a minimum of candid about the challenges the Government had to 25 days. Hon. Members will recall that everybody in navigate at the height of the pandemic, provide some this House was saying, “Get hold of the kit,” including context to the NAO’s report, and set out what went well the Leader of the Opposition. and what undoubtedly could have been done better in the period it focuses on, between January and July. Nor is it the case that the Government cast aside I was on maternity leave at the height of the pandemic value-for-money considerations. All offers went through and only began my ministerial role in the Cabinet Office the same eight stage assessment process, and where full in June. As I took on that role, I confess I shared some competitions for PPE were not possible because of time of the concerns that have been raised with me in the pressures, we examined prices against a rolling benchmark House about the cost and the circumstances of particular of prices to protect the taxpayer from mispricing. That procurements. I wanted to assure myself of what had is not to say that prices were not higher across the happened and to get a sense of the full story. Today, I board. It was a massively overheated spot market. Product hope to share some of that and to be as transparent as was often going for more than five times the normal possible, but as I do so, I ask hon. Members to keep price, and that was made worse by the appearance of three broad points in mind. opportunistic middlemen, who appeared and started to put down deposits on product, then reselling it for very First, it is very important to recognise the sheer high handling fees. volume of procurement activity in response to this national health emergency. By 31 July, more than Of course, the Government would not normally pay 8,600 contracts worth £18 billion had successfully been those kinds of fees, but procurement teams were left awarded, some 90% by the Department of Health and with some very difficult choices. Either we bought the Social Care in value terms. That compares with product, as was rightly and vociferously demanded, or 174 contracts worth £1.1 billion awarded by that we did not get hold of it for the NHS. Department last year. In other words, there was a This situation was further complicated by what was colossal upscaling of effort to take this country through going on internally, and that is what I mean when I say this crisis. Of those contracts, the NAO’s report examined we have to make sure we learn the right lessons, particularly just 20. It obviously focused on the contracts that about the challenges within our own systems. Some attracted most public interest. 450 people from across government were moved into Secondly, due to time pressures, I am afraid I will be the DHSC to become a stand-up virtual team to urgently unable to address all the comments. I will focus my assist with securing PPE. That team is normally only contribution on the areas looked into by the NAO 21 people-strong. In many ways, getting that number of report. Finally, although it has become a political cliché people together was a great feat, but it also meant that to say that we have to learn the lessons from particular there were a lot of people who did not know each other, events, in this case it is especially important that we all working remotely suddenly from home, on a range learn the right lessons. It might make for a snappy of different IT systems, with suppliers they did not headline or an eye-catching political campaign to suggest know, on product with which they were not familiar, in that the story of procurement during the crisis has been the most highly pressured market of their careers. That one of Tory corruption, but it behoves us all to understand was not an easy operating context. what really happened, so we do not overlook what As concern grew about the level of PPE that might be needs to change. required to deal with the challenge of covid, the Prime At the height of the crisis in April, as the NAO Minister put out a call to action, which I am sure hon. described in its report, health services across the world Members will all recall. With great commitment and faced an unprecedented situation where demand for energy, the British public and the business community PPE and other medical products far exceeded supply. responded, but that meant that, in very short order, Faced with these exceptional levels of global demand, commercial teams were dealing with more than 15,000 offers the usual vendors in China who service the central of help. Frankly, leads were coming in faster than they procurement function of the NHS very quickly ran out could be processed, and when they were rejected or of supply and the world descended on a few factories in if they were delayed, people started chasing through that country to bid for available items. In that market their MPs. I am sure that many of us in this room context, the Government needed to procure with extreme experienced that. urgency, often through direct award of contracts, or we In order to manage the influx of offers, a separate risked missing out on vital supplies. It is here that I mailbox was set up to handle this area of work. That is would like to address the first of several criticisms being the oft-cited high-priority lane, which the Opposition repeated here today: that the Government ripped up have sought to portray as much more sinister than it procurement rules. That is simply not true. actually was. Far from being a secret referrals lane, that 413WH Covid-19: NAO Report on 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19: NAO Report on 414WH Government Procurement Government Procurement mailbox was in part a triage for directing more credible PPE to be produced in the UK. I hope that those lasting leads, and in part an engagement communication tool national enhancements will be bolstered by the work of for managing some of the correspondence that was the Department for International Trade’s Project Defend, coming from parliamentarians of all colours, including which is looking at other areas where we are critically Opposition MPs and peers. As the NAO said, it was right dependent on other countries for important parts of that we sifted the credible PPE offers from the others. our manufacturing. The most important thing to note, as the NAO does in The NAO was absolutely right to identify delays in its report, is that all PPE offers, no matter where they publishing documentation in relation to emergency came from, went through the same eight-stage check, so procurement. The sheer pace of activity meant that there was no special treatment for friends of Ministers. documentation was not perfect. The result is that contracts There has been excitable public commentary, which have not been published online as quickly as they should has been repeated here today, and claims that people have been, and it has been left to DHSC to piece were 10 times more likely to get through if they had together relevant paperwork from the different IT systems, Tory friends. If anything, the fact that that mailbox had partly because of the large team that had to be brought a higher conversation rate demonstrates that the initial in from outside DHSC. I very much regret that that lag triage process was working, as those leads were often in our normal transparency timescale has created a more credible and proved fruitful once they had gone sense of mistrust, but we are nearly there. At the time through the due diligence process. Even so, it is important that the NAO did its scrutiny work, only 50% of required to note that, of the 493 offers that came through the contract notices had been published. As of 3 December, priority mailbox, only 47 were taken forward. In other it is now 96% of PPE contract award notices on Tenders words, 90% were rejected. Indeed, more than Electronic Daily, which is the European journal, and 20,000 individual product offers were rejected between 94% on Contracts Finder. the end of March and mid-June because of the robust I have concentrated today on PPE, as that is a large due diligence processes that had been put in place by focus of the NAO’s two most recent reports. However, our commercial teams. the NAO also looked at communications contracts, A number of Members have referred to companies which the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton referred that missed out, and a number of vocal companies have to, so I would like to spend a moment on that. For context, gone on television to say that they do not understand a number of external research agencies were engaged by why they missed out. The Government do not have a right the Cabinet Office’s comms unit to test the public reaction to reply in those circumstance, because if we were to set to Government messaging on public health. That was out publicly why that company did not secure a contract, crucial to helping us understand people’s attitudes and we would be betraying commercial confidences. behaviours during this time and refine public health The existence of the separate mailbox has added fuel messaging accordingly to drive behavioural change. to the fire for those accusing the Government of At the time I began my ministerial role, there were chumocracy, but if they have read the NAO’s report reports suggesting that some of those contracts for they should have noticed the conclusion, which has comms services had been improperly let, and naturally I been mentioned by other hon. Members and states that was unhappy to hear that. Unfortunately, I cannot “ministers had properly declared their interests, and we found no comment in detail on the specifics of those contracts evidence of their involvement in procurement decisions or contract because the Department is still working on a detailed management.” defence and disclosure in the ongoing judicial review Our own internal audit on PPE has not found any proceedings.However,I can say that following a preliminary conflicts either, and we have been searching for them. internal fact-finding exercise, the Cabinet Office resolved to delve into that properly and commissioned an Dan Carden: Will the Minister give way? independent expert review, led by Nigel Boardman, who sits in the Department for Business, Energy and Catherine West: Will the Minister give way? Industrial Strategy and is also a well-respected legal professional, to consider those findings and set out how Julia Lopez: I am afraid I am really short of time. we could improve, particularly looking at the processes Forgive me; I want to get through the content. and guidance that teams in the Cabinet Office have As I say, no PPE contracts were awarded by reason of access to. The review and its results were published who referred them. I remind colleagues that, ultimately, yesterday on gov.uk. The report is forensic in its there was very little waste. Of all the product in question, analysis and hard-hitting in its recommendations. I am so far only 0.5% of what was ordered was found to be pleased to tell colleagues that we will take forward all unusable. That is not to say that we cannot improve. 28 recommendations in full. Admittedly, there was not an adequate stockpile, and Before I close, I want to say a little about the wider the lack of a central stock control system made it very civil service reforms that we are proactively pursuing to difficult to get a clear grip of the demand signals address some of the concerns beyond the NAO report. coming in through the NHS. That is an extremely During this time of crisis, people have been concerned important issue to rectify. about the use of consultants. We are looking at how we can better skill-up civil servants, reduce our reliance on Rachel Hopkins: Will the Minister give way? consultancy, and potentially have our own in-house consultancy. We are also consolidating the number of Julia Lopez: I am so sorry; I would really like to make IT systems used across the civil service so that it is easier progress. to move people around internally at speed, and for We have also had to rapidly address a strategic over- those systems to be compatible. As has been referenced, reliance on China. We have now built up our national we will soon launch our procurement Green Paper. I capability and resilience, with the potential for 70% of very much encourage all hon. Members to engage with 415WH Covid-19: NAO Report on 9 DECEMBER 2020 416WH Government Procurement [Julia Lopez] Disabled Children: Accessible and Inclusive Education the consultation process, because once we leave the transition period our country will have an extremely important opportunity to look at these issues. 11 am The proposals have long been in development and Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and will include specific measures to strengthen transparency, Lesmahagow) (SNP): I beg to move, making sure that we can have a choice of direct award That this House has considered accessible and inclusive education and more competitive tendering during crises. At the for disabled children. moment it seems that we have either the full-fat It is an absolute honour to present this motion with procurement, which is much too slow in emergency you in the Chair, Ms Eagle. I thank a number of situations, or direct awards, which lead to the kinds of organisations for their hard work on the issue of disability concerns that we have debated this morning. I know inclusion in education, including the Disabled Children’s that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton is particularly Partnership, Sense, Scope, Mencap, the Alliance for concerned about issues of company conduct in Inclusive Education and the One-Handed Musical procurement. The Green Paper will include proposals Instrument Trust, to name but a few. I have been asked to use exclusion rules to tackle unacceptable supplier to raise these issues with the Government in my capacity behaviour, such as tax evasion, embedding transparency as chair of the all-party parliamentary group for disability. by default and developing faster review methods to I pay tribute to the work of the hon. Member for speed up the court process on legal challenges to genuinely Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake), who chairs the all-party improper procurements. parliamentary group for special educational needs and There is a lot to say, so I am sorry to rush through it disabilities. all, but I will end by saying that the public are absolutely Children with disabilities have often been most affected right to demand that we spend their money with care. I by the coronavirus pandemic. In terms of immediate hope the proactive and candid approach that I have set impact, people with disabilities have accounted for six out this morning is reassuring. I remind colleagues that out of 10 deaths involving covid-19, while Mencap’s we were procuring for a purpose, and that purpose was social care survey has shown that seven out of 10 people to get us through the pandemic. We achieved sufficient with a learning disability have had their social care PPE for the NHS. We now have 32 billion items of PPE, provision reduced as a result of the pandemic. with no reports of outages, and we have established a four-month stockpile of PPE from November 2020 Looking at long-term consequences, the Centre for onwards. Given the extraordinary context, that is an Mental Health estimates that 1.5 million children will extraordinary feat. need mental health support for conditions such as depression, anxiety and post-traumatic stress disorder Finally, I pay tribute to civil service colleagues in the as a result of the pandemic. The NHS’s digital report commercial function. They might not be on the frontline anticipates a 50% increase in mental health problems of the NHS, but they have done extraordinary things in for children and young people as a result of the pandemic. a very difficult operating context. I thank them for all the work that they have done. When we account for the heightened immediate impact of covid-19 on children with disabilities, coupled with 10.57 am the mental health consequences predicted for young Dan Carden: Thank you, Ms Eagle, for chairing the people, it quickly becomes apparent that the wellbeing proceedings, and I also thank colleagues across the and inclusion of children with special educational needs House for their contributions. I do not think the issue and disabilities must be prioritised. That is why I secured will disappear. Too many millions of people have faced the debate today. financial hardship and difficult circumstances over this One of UNICEF’sseven principles of quality education past year, so there is anger out there among the public is disability inclusion. The presumption that children over what is seen as a chumocracy, cronyism or whatever with disabilities would be welcome in mainstream education we want to call it. We know that huge sums have been was first introduced into law in the Education Act 1996 handed to close contacts of the Conservative party. and expanded in the Children and Families Act 2014. Although I welcome the Minister’s reply and how she That Act also enshrined into law disabled children’s engaged with all the issues, she was not able to explain rights to special educational needs provision and, where away the privileged access given to friends and chums of necessary, the provision of education, health and care the Conservative party. Following this debate, we need a assessments to establish what adjustments a child with full public inquiry into covid contracts. special educational needs might have, and how best to Question put and agreed to. facilitate their integration into mainstream educational Resolved, facilities. That this House has considered the NAO report on Investigation into government procurement during the covid-19 pandemic. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. I am aware of this Ms Angela Eagle (in the Chair): Will Members please issue in my constituency and it is important to address leave promptly by the exit door on the left while observing it. Does she agree that education by Zoom, which many social distancing? people have had to do recently, does not achieve the best results for some sensorially-impacted children? That 10.58 am underlines the importance of face-to-face teaching, where Sitting suspended. it is safe to do so. I understand the circumstances, but that is not the most suitable option for people with disabilities or those who are sensorially disadvantaged. 417WH Disabled Children: Accessible and 9 DECEMBER 2020 Disabled Children: Accessible and 418WH Inclusive Education Inclusive Education Dr Cameron: I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. Since the start of the pandemic, many parents of That is an excellent point and it was well made. Children children with special needs have done their absolute best with disabilities have often lost out on educational to educate them from home. We should celebrate the provision because the format has moved almost introduction of tools to help them, such as Freeview’s wholeheartedly on to Zoom and the internet. I have accessible TV guide, which has helped facilitate remote been contacted by many families who have children learningthroughmakingprogrammessuchas“Newsround”, with autism, who do not particularly like that format “Bitesize Daily”and “Horrible Histories”accessible in a and will not engage with it, and by families who have range of formats during the pandemic. However, a lack children with sensory impairments, who cannot receive of specialist equipment and broader resources for parents the adaptations in time to use the format at all. That has has meant that many now fear that their children’s led to children with disabilities being disproportionately education has suffered disproportionately. Parents have affected by the pandemic. struggled to cope. Despite schools returning full time, the Disabled Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): I am Children’s Partnership has found that 24% of children grateful to the hon. Lady for securing the debate. I want with disabilities have not yet returned to school full to raise the issue of access to education for disabled time. Many are being taught on part-time timetables children. They cannot access education if they cannot due to health and safety concerns, making their needs get there, and, despite personal transport budgets, the all the more immediate. The return to school has been school transport system is limited. I have a case where particularly challenging for pupils with tracheostomies only 50% of a constituent’s costs are covered. Is it not and those with aerosol-generating procedures, as delayed right that we ensure that local authorities have sufficient Government advice, finally published on 13 November, provision to enable all children to access education? left many families feeling in limbo for months.Furthermore, the Coronavirus Act 2020 suspended a number of key Dr Cameron: Absolutely. The hon. Lady makes an provisions in the Children and Families Act 2014, which extremely important point, which is echoed by my has meant that 31% of children with disabilities are still experience in my constituency. I have been contacted by waiting for key therapies to be restarted. Some 51% of a number of families. Local authority provision means those waiting for an assessment for an education, health that a young child with autism, who does not like close and care plan have been waiting more than six months, physical contact, has had to travel for hours in a taxi with which is entirely unacceptable for families who are individuals to whom he is not accustomed. That has struggling to provide the care that is so necessary for caused behavioural issues and really impacted on his their children. education. It is incumbent on us as legislators to make sure that those who are most vulnerable have access With that in mind, I implore the Minister on behalf through local authorities to the provision that they need of children with disabilities and the all-party parliamentary to meet their educational and care needs, and that takes group for disability to do everything in her power to account of their sensory, development or learning ensure that children with disabilities are able to return difficulties. I thank the hon. Lady for making that point. to specialist and mainstream education as soon as is safely possible. I also ask that she ensure that provisions Provision of inclusive education was greeted with in the Children and Families Act 2014, which are key to absolute optimism by those who had long campaigned ensuring disability inclusion in the classroom, are resumed for it. Unfortunately, however, many aims have been left without delay. unfulfilled. There are gaps in support and a need for additional funding, as I have highlighted. Another issue There is increasing anxiety among many qualified that must be addressed is specialist professionals providing health professionals and therapists who work in schools— support for children with disabilities. As with so many and who are absolutely key to disability inclusion in the underlying issues in our society, covid-19 has shone an classroom—that they might be redeployed to hospitals additional light on the many challenges and barriers and health services in the coming months. That could that children with special educational needs face in their be incredibly detrimental to the learning of children everyday lives. It has exacerbated them, as I have explained. with special educational needs. I therefore ask the Minister Before the pandemic, the Disabled Children’sPartnership to ensure that medical support for children with disabilities identified a £1.5 billion funding gap in health, social is maintained out of this pandemic, and that continuity care and education, which would need to be filled to of care for children with special educational needs in adequately support disabled children and their families. the classroom is protected. Sense has also noted that the gradual erosion of specialist I have been contacted by the OHMI Trust, which support available to disabled children has significantly undertakes truly innovative work adapting musical hampered the ability of the school system to provide instruments for children with special educational needs, accessible and inclusive education. There is an ever- to highlight the importance of music as a key element in decreasing number of teachers for the deaf, the visually inclusive education. To this day, this is often denied to impaired and those with multi-sensory impairment. children with special educational needs due to lack of Will the Minister comment on that provision and funding, awareness among music teachers or tuition providers, and outline a plan to meet the needs of children and or a lack of specialist equipment that has been tailored families? The lack of provision not only hampers to a child’s particular disability or needs. Music can participation; it also means that education, health and provide an opportunity for socialisation and creativity, care needs assessments often lack input from an education and has also been linked to improved academic specialist, such as an educational psychologist—I declare achievement. I would welcome a comment from the an interest and refer to the Register of Members’Financial Minister about ensuring that music is not omitted from Interests. Appropriate adjustments in the classroom can any efforts to include children with disabilities also be missed. going forward, and to work collegiately with the OHMI 419WH Disabled Children: Accessible and 9 DECEMBER 2020 Disabled Children: Accessible and 420WH Inclusive Education Inclusive Education [Dr Cameron] can to support, include and cherish every single child with special educational needs across the United Kingdom. Trust to develop specialist instruments for children That is the aim of the all-party parliamentary group on across the United Kingdom who have special educational disability, because we know that these children have so needs. much potential and so much to offer their families, the Before I finish, I will touch on further education for community and society at large. those with special educational needs, and particularly the case of Mr Gary Copland from my constituency. A 11.16 am student at the University of Glasgow, Gary is in his The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education mid-20s, has been registered blind since birth and has (Vicky Ford): It is a great pleasure to serve with you in autism. He is currently studying for a bachelor of law. the chair, Ms Eagle, and good morning. Gary was forced to go part time due to poor levels of support, and is now in his fifth year. In his first year, he I congratulate the hon. Member for East Kilbride, was given only one course text adapted for his disability, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron) on securing five days before the end of term. In his second year, he a debate on this important subject. Let me start by had only four textbooks, leaving him to write all essays stressing that we want all children and young people, no and take exams from memory. He has had no working matter what their special educational need or disability IT for over 43 weeks, leaving him unable to graduate is, to have the ability to reach their full potential and to with everyone else in his year. The whole family is receive the right support to succeed in their education, suffering from trauma as a result of these issues, and and as they move into adult life. The ambition is for Gary has lost 30 kg and is now medicated for depression. every child, no matter what challenges they face, to have I ask the Minister to speak with universities to look access to world-class education—an education that sets at these issues, Gary’s in particular—perhaps the them up for life. If education is to be accessible and Equality and Human Rights Commission could review inclusive, it must also be world-class, which is why we this particular case. have increased the high needs budget by £1.5 billion, or nearly a quarter, over a two-year period. I am also Finally, I would welcome a statement or response pleased to report that at the beginning of this month from the Minister on the Government’s funding plans 80% of children with education, health and care plans for disability-inclusive education. In 2019, a review of were back in schools in England. special educational needs criteria and practice was promised, but this publication has been delayed. It would be Ofsted’s regulatory inspections have been recently remiss of me, therefore, not press the Government for a updated, and Ofsted is explicit in its inspection framework date or timeline for publication. Despite the current that all schools need to have an inclusive environment circumstances, it is an absolute priority. It would also be that meets the needs of all pupils. In addition, the helpful to have an update on autism assessments and cross-Government SEND review is looking at the reasons the progress the Government are making, because many for the increased demand by parents for places in special families tell me that they cannot receive the support schools that we have seen over recent years, and one of required for children who have autistic spectrum disorder the review’s aims is to identify ways to strengthen the in school, or at home, because they are still struggling to role of mainstream schools in SEND, by having faster get assessments. access to extra help where needed. In 2014, the legislation that we introduced on SEND Rachael Maskell: I am grateful to the hon. Member made it clear that where a child has complex needs, and for mentioning autism, because currently it is very their parent or the young person themselves wants a much viewed through a medical model, so people are mainstream placement, they can express that preference, unable to access the support they need until they have a and local authorities are then under a qualified duty to diagnosis. Does she agree that we need to look at this ensure that preferences for mainstream placement are through a much more social model, in order to ensure met wherever possible. However, there are some early intervention support for parents, as well as for circumstances where a child’s special educational needs young people? may be best met through specialist provision, and it is absolutely right that parents should have that choice of Dr Cameron: Absolutely, that is crucial. Getting earlier being able to access places for a child with complex assessment, intervention, and support, even if a diagnosis SEND at mainstream or special schools, depending on is taking a long time, is crucial to help and support the child’s individual needs. children and families to cope. That really must be Throughout the pandemic, I have had the great pleasure addressed, and all too often children and families who of meeting—often virtually—mainstream and special are awaiting diagnosis have no support in the interim, school leaders up and down the country, and hearing which is really a failure of the system for those who are from them about how they are have risen to the challenges most vulnerable. of providing education during the outbreak. I really Lastly,speaking from my background as a psychologist, thank all of those staff, headteachers and children who I believe that disability has to be at the heart of have spoken to me. I am currently on a virtual tour of Government’sresponse to the mental health concomitants special schools in tier 3 areas, so I thank everybody who of the pandemic among young people. Children with has spoken to me during that. I particularly thank the disabilities are far more likely to have been isolated staff, children and young people from Thriftwood School during the last eight months, to have seen disruption to and College, which is in my constituency, for talking to their care and treatment, and because of the difficulties me as I sat in their playground—in a socially distanced of adapting to home learning they are at increased risk way—about how much being back at school has made a of seeing their academic progress fall apart and fall difference to their lives. It has been an absolute privilege behind that of their peers. We must do everything we to talk to all of those children and teachers. 421WH Disabled Children: Accessible and 9 DECEMBER 2020 Disabled Children: Accessible and 422WH Inclusive Education Inclusive Education I am proud of the SEND system in England. There Rachael Maskell: I raised the issue of transport into are plenty of things about it that can and must be schools, which comes out of local authority budgets. I improved, but fundamentally it is a good system based have a constituent who currently is not in school because on the well-supported principles of co-production with they need specialist transport and cannot travel with children and young people themselves and with their others, and the parents are having to pay for 50% of carers, and a focus on the whole child and their education, that travel. Will the Minister go back and look at the health and care, as well as a focus on life outcomes, issue of children being unable to access school because backed up by strong protections of the rights of parents. of the insufficiency in the transport budget for local We should all acknowledge that life for many families authorities? raising children with SEND was already hard before the pandemic came, but then they faced the extra challenges Vicky Ford: The hon. Lady makes an important of lockdown and coronavirus. It has been a high priority point. Of course, we have given local authorities additional for me and the Government to put children and young funding during this period for exactly the matter of people with SEND and vulnerable children at the heart transport, but if she cares to write to me about that of our response. That is why I have spoken to many specific case, I am very happy to look into it. Some parent carers directly on many occasions and regularly parents have decided that they will do the transportation written open letters to them and those working closely themselves, particularly if they want to reduce the amount with SEND children to let them know what we have of contact that their child has with other people outside done to support them and what they should be expecting the family bubble or school bubble. from the services on the ground. We know that children and young people have needed Throughout the pandemic, we asked schools to stay to work online, and we have provided additional support, open to pupils with EHC plans, where it was safe to do including for those children with SEND, but of course so. I am really proud that, even at the peak of the there are extra challenges. The Oak National Academy pandemic in the spring, we were one of very few countries provides video lessons on a broad range of subjects in the world to keep schools and colleges and early from reception to year 11, including specialist content years open for vulnerable children. As the hon. Member for children with SEND. In April, we launched the for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, keeping those schools EdTech Demonstrator network, which is a peer-to-peer and colleges open is critical for children’s wellbeing, as support network for the expert use of technology. It has well as for their education. Since September, our priority done some phenomenal work supporting teachers— has been ensuring that those children and young people especially SEND specialists—across the country.Specialist have returned to college. It has been challenging for support is provided by Highfurlong School in Blackpool, certain groups, such as the small number of children and the National Star College in Cheltenham has been who need aerosol-generating procedures, but I am very running webinars weekly in which over 1,800 schools glad to hear the vast majority of them are now back in and colleges have participated so far, with many more school. accessing the recorded content. That shows how,throughout We have published detailed guidance throughout this the pandemic, teachers and staff are absolutely passionate time to schools and colleges, specialist settings, residential to learn more about how they can use technology to special schools and many others to support the return support those with SEND. That will have a lasting, and to support their safety, but we do not underestimate positive benefit. the challenge that this represents. We know that special I am also delighted to announce today that one of education settings may face even greater challenges, those specialist providers, the National Star College, which is why we work so closely with them. will roll out assistive technology-specific training. As Our £1 billion covid catch-up package includes colleagues will know, we are on course to have delivered £650 million to support schools for lost teaching time, nearly half a million laptops and tablets by Christmas and there is an additional weighting for special schools, to support disadvantaged children in years 3 to 11 where which get three times as much as a mainstream school. face-to-face education may be disrupted. Many of those Headteachers can decide how to use that. They could be laptops will be provided to children and young people spending it on educational psychologists, speech and with SEND. language therapy or other activities to support children. The hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and We recognise the importance of respite for families Lesmahagow mentioned the importance of other medical with disabled children and young people themselves. We treatments and specialists. The chief nurse has made it reaffirmed that message and legislated to allow a wide clear that health visitors and school nurses should not range of respite services to continue, including in the be redeployed elsewhere in the NHS this winter. We family home. We encourage local authorities to prioritise have also been clear that specialist therapists should be that support. back in schools. There may be circumstances where a child is not able The debate comes at a timely point, because the to attend school due to coronavirus—for example, if Government are working both on the new cross- they are self-isolating—and that is why we have made it Government disability strategy for publication in the clear that schools have a duty, in line with the guidance spring and on the autism strategy. As the hon. Member and the law, to provide remote education for state-funded for York Central (Rachael Maskell) said, autism is school-aged children who are unable to attend a school extremely important. The Department for Education is due to coronavirus. We have also reviewed the remote working closely with the Department of Health and education guidance. Schools should always work Social Care on the comprehensive review of the autism collaboratively with families to put in place adjustments strategy. In developing the strategy, we are listening to enable pupils with SEND to successfully access remote closely to autistic people, including over 2,700 people education alongside their peers. who contributed to the call for evidence. 423WH Disabled Children: Accessible and 9 DECEMBER 2020 424WH Inclusive Education [Vicky Ford] Government Policy on Iran Early identification of autism is really important. Under the Government’s opportunity areas programme, [Mrs Maria Miller in the Chair] there is a fantastic project in Bradford using the outcomes for each individual child at the early years foundation 2.30 pm stage tests and teacher observations to find out whether Mrs Maria Miller (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members there are markers of early autism. The results are so that there have been some changes to the normal practice impressive that we have rolled it out from the 10 first in order to support the new call list system and to pilot schools to the next 100 schools. I am hopeful that ensure that social distancing can be respected. Members in the future that could lead to much earlier diagnosis. must arrive at the start of the debate and are expected The SEND review, which the hon. Member for East to remain for the winding-up speeches if there is space Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow asked about, has to do so. Members are also asked to respect the one-way always aimed to enable the education system to have system around the room and to please exit by the door that transformative effect on those with SEND and to on the left. focus on the person as a whole, with a joined-up offer of Before Members use their microphones, they should transparent services co-produced with them and their sanitise them using the cleaning materials provided and family to suit the child’s individual needs. That was the dispose of the cleaning materials in the bin by the door driving force behind the legislative changes we made in as they leave the room. Members can use the seats in the 2014 and it is the driving force behind the SEND review. Public Gallery, as they are being used to ensure we have It will require significant change from everyone involved enough space for people to be able to join this very in the system to deliver those changes. It is a fundamental well-subscribed debate. I now ask John Howell to move and cross-cutting review in which we are working hard the motion. to find ways to make best practice in the SEND system become common practice. During the outbreak of the 2.31 pm pandemic, it was necessary to reduce the pace of the John Howell (Henley) (Con): I beg to move, review, but I and the whole of Government remain That this House has considered Government policy on Iran. completely committed to it, and our ambition is to It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, report in the spring. The areas we aim to improve are of Mrs Miller. I will concentrate on two issues: the nuclear long standing, but we are determined to deliver that real issue in Iran and state-sponsored terrorism. That will and lasting change. leave the field open to others to consider matters such I am grateful to the hon. Member for drawing our as human rights. For many years, colleagues from across attention to this important agenda. We are as committed the House have raised concerns over Iran’smalign activities as ever to getting the right support in place for children and their impact on the UK’s interests in the region and and young people with special educational needs and beyond. The recent expiration of the UN arms embargo disabilities so that they can thrive and achieve their and the election of President-elect Joe Biden offer us an potential. Both she and the hon. Member for York invaluable opportunity to review events in the region Central raised important concerns, which I hope she is and consider the UK’s policy towards Iran. It is a policy happy to hear the Government take seriously. that I believe requires urgent reassessment and that would benefit from a clear-sighted assessment of Iran 11.28 am and the challenges it poses to the UK and its allies. Dr Cameron: I thank the Minister and everyone for Ever since the Islamic revolution altered the course of taking part in the debate.I pay special tribute to Greenburn, Iran’s hitherto great history, its fundamentalist leaders Sanderson High, and Duncanrig schools in my constituency have been driven by a central goal: expanding Iranian and invite the Minister to the all-party parliamentary hegemony in the region and exporting the revolution. group for disability to further discuss these issues. The founding father of the Islamic Republic spoke Question put and agreed to. clearly of his vision for the new Iran: “The Iranian people’s revolution is only a point in the start of 11.29 am the revolution of the great world of Islam.” That is a mantra that Tehran’s leaders have ruthlessly Sitting suspended. and violently pursued ever since. The radicalisation at the heart of that ideology has led to untold suffering in Iran, throughout the region and far beyond. Iran’s support for international terrorism is perhaps the best documented means of exporting its fundamentalist concept of Islamic revolution. It is why Iran is often referred to as the world’s biggest state sponsor of terrorism. It certainly explains why, to this day, Iran’s leaders ensure that vast sums are invested in its terrorist proxies, even amidst a devastating pandemic and economic crisis, to the detriment of its long-suffering citizens. Iran’soperation of an ever-expanding nuclear programme presents the international community with an historic challenge. The joint comprehensive plan of action nuclear agreement has not restrained Iran’s nuclear ambitions, 425WH Government Policy on Iran9 DECEMBER 2020 Government Policy on Iran 426WH and certainly has not made it reassess its harmful trajectory, P5+1 has further undermined its collective efforts in the as many wishfully advocated at the time of its signing. implementation of the deal. This year, despite many The JCPOA was signed in 2015 and was heralded as an breaches, there have been no tangible consequences for historic moment in non-proliferation. Sadly, events have Iran. Just this week, the UK joined its E3 partners in shown that that was far from the truth. Although the speaking of their efforts to preserve the JCPOA, and deal included extensive verification mechanisms to allow Iran’s egregious breaches warrant nothing more than the international community a line of sight into aspects the expression of deep worry. of Iran’s nuclear work, it has fallen short of the necessary I wholeheartedly supported the UK’s triggering of safeguards in many areas. the dispute resolution mechanism at the beginning of Mindful of the time we have for this debate, I will the year. That stood to be an important moment in provide a brief overview of the most concerning aspects. restraining Iran’s actions. Conversely, it appears that First, much of Iran’s advanced nuclear infrastructure the E3 has allowed the process to become an interminable was merely mothballed, instead of being dismantled. period for dialogue, without any tangible action or That has enabled Iran rapidly to bring enrichment sense of authority, despite the fact that the IAEA has equipment online in recent months, after it decided to provided extensive evidence of increased Iranian non- breach the terms of the JCPOA and enrich uranium, compliance. Will the Minister please outline the strategy not only at a higher purity, closer to that required for of Her Majesty’s Government in the administration of weapons grade,but in higher quantities.By the International the dispute mechanism and say whether,in his assessment, Atomic Energy Agency’s own estimation, Iran now has it has any impact on Iran’s nuclear activities? In addition, 12 times the permitted amount of enriched uranium. That what outcome is the E3 working towards with the far exceeds the amount required for a peaceful domestic dispute mechanism? nuclear programme and is reportedly sufficient to produce The snapback of sanctions was an important failsafe two nuclear warheads. Much of the advanced enrichment measure enshrined in the JCPOA—a measure that has work has even taken place deep underground in new not been initiated by the P5+1 signatories, with the production halls at the controversial Natanz nuclear facility. exception of the United States—so will the Minister Secondly, Iran’s historic nuclear activities—especially please outline how the Government’s position on the those with possible military dimensions—were inexplicably reimposition of sanctions on Iran as a result of its left unaddressed by the JCPOA. It emerged in 2018 that non-compliance is going to work out? Have the Government Iran entered the 2015 nuclear deal on false pretences, notified Iran at any stage of the possibility of sanctions after an Israeli intelligence operation found documents being re-enforced? What message does the Minister proving that Iran had conducted more advanced testing think it sends to Iran when we condemn its nuclear related to nuclear weapons development than it had non-compliance but do not enforce the consequences declared. agreed in UN Security Council resolution 2231 and Thirdly, the deal failed entirely to address the pressing repeatedly state our commitment to preserving the JCPOA? problem of Iran’s support for international terrorism. The expiration of the UN arms embargo on Iran was The failure to pursue a broad deal and the segregation problematically mishandled this year. By this point, of core issues from Iran’s nuclear activities was a costly Iran was in full defiance of the JCPOA. Allowing the strategic mistake. Iran has shown no inclination to open embargo to expire without extension sends a regrettable those activities to negotiation following the JCPOA’s signal to Iran that its actions elicit no consequences, signing. Why would it? It achieved invaluable sanctions regardless of how flagrant they are. That is particularly relief at a critical moment in the country’s economic relevant, given that a further set of embargoes, including life; and, besides, the export of terrorism is the very on missiles, is set to expire in 2023. The depth of cornerstone of exporting revolution. concern felt on the Conservative Benches about the Fourthly, the JCPOA failed to address Iran’s ballistic expiration was seen clearly in October when more than missile programme, which we must not forget is the primary 80 Conservative parliamentarians signed a letter to the means for delivering a nuclear warhead. While the UN Prime Minister, co-ordinated by Conservative Friends sanctions in effect may relate to that programme, that of Israel. has not for one second given Iran cause to pause its test launching and construction of advanced missiles capable Earlier this year, Ministers stated that the UK was of delivering explosive material thousands of miles “working…to address the planned expiry”, from Iran. but we ultimately abstained on a US-led UN Security Fifthly, human rights abuses were not even discussed Council resolution to extend the embargo to August. I in the negotiations, despite Iran’s having one of the regret to say that the UK’s assessment at the time that worst human rights records in the world. The manner in the motion would not have passed anyway so we should which any country treats the lives of its own citizens sends not support it seems illogical. I am sure it is not UK an unmistakeable message about its integrity. I am a Government policy to abstain on votes purely on the member of the Council of Europe, the foremost human basis that they are unlikely to pass. rights organisation in Europe, and it is an embarrassment It should cause additional alarm to Her Majesty’s having such a pariah on our own doorsteps. Government that our P5+1 partners Russia and China Last, and by no means least, by lifting all nuclear-related opted to enable the resumption of advanced weapons sanctions with immediate effect the P5+1 lost any leverage sales to Iran, which will further Tehran’s dangerous it retained to prevent Iran from subsequently breaching regional activities. China is reportedly negotiating a the terms of the nuclear deal. $400 billion deal with Iran to increase military co-operation. It should be little surprise that our Prime Minister I fear that history will not favourably judge our inability said earlier this year that this was “a bad deal”. While to bridge the divide between the United States and our the deal itself was unquestionably bad, I fear that the European allies by ultimately abstaining. 427WH Government Policy on Iran9 DECEMBER 2020 Government Policy on Iran 428WH

[John Howell] to return to the deal as an interim step, if Iran complies with its terms. If, in due course, Iran begins to indicate a What is the Minister’s assessment of the growing preparedness to return to the JCPOA, it will be critical divergence within the P5+1 and its implications for any that sanctions relief is not given prematurely. The UK, future attempts, first, to bring Iran back into compliance along with its P5+1 partners, must ensure that Iran with the JCPOA and, secondly, to negotiate a broader reaches a number of verifiable technical milestones, framework with it? Although an EU arms embargo is proving it is committed to compliance before sanctions set to remain in force until 2023, does the Minister are lifted. Specifically, it must remove its stockpile of accept that concerns are centred around Iran’s ability to enriched uranium and end enrichment beyond the permitted procure advanced weaponry from states outside the EU? JCPOA limit. Beyond that, the only way forward is a Iran seeks nuclear weapons as a protective umbrella new comprehensive agreement, addressing all of these for its dangerous activities throughout the middle east, concerns. What steps has the Minister taken alongside which is why combating its support for terrorism abroad our international partners in working towards that? should be part and parcel of our Iran policy. In Lebanon Iran’s actions over the last year are of concern to alone, Iran has armed the Hezbollah terror organisation many in this place, as witnessed by the number of hon. with an estimated arsenal of up to 150,000 rockets—more Members who have turned up for this debate. I hope than 10 times more than it had in the 2006 war. I welcomed that the Government will take this opportunity to adopt the UK’s proscription of Hezbollah last year, and it has a clear-sighted approach to Iran. Unless we begin rolling been reassuring that several other countries have followed back Tehran’s harmful activities, UK interests and the suit, but there is much work still to be done. much-desired peace and security of the middle east will Iran is reportedly distributing almost $20 billion per be jeopardised. year to its proxies throughout Lebanon, Gaza, Iraq and Yemen, and it is backing President Assad in Syria. The Mrs Maria Miller (in the Chair): Before I call the next sanctions relief windfall that Iran received from the speaker, I remind colleagues that they cannot contribute JCPOA would have directly facilitated such extensive from the seats in the Gallery. Perhaps others can make financial support. The consequences of Iran’s investments space to allow people to move forward as and when. need no explanation. As the Defence Secretary said, the This is a heavily subscribed debate, so I suggest a Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps Quds Force is one three-minute informal time limit to try to get everybody of the foremost architects of Iran’s malign activity. Yet in. I will be calling Front-Bench speakers at 3.28 pm. although the IRGC is believed to be responsible for the deaths of dozens of British servicemen and women, and 2.47 pm IRGC-linked terrorist activity in Europe is well documented, the UK does not proscribe the group as a terrorist Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): It is an honour to organisation. The US proscribed the IRGC last year—a serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller. significant step in the fight against international terrorism. The hon. Member for Henley (John Howell) outlined The UK Treasury lists the IRGC, the IRGC Aerospace the issues to do with the nuclear threat, and I will not Force and the IRGC Quds Force as being subject to UK touch on that, to give hon. Members time on other terrorism and terrorism-financing sanctions, so they issues. He was right to say that Iran is one of the world’s should surely meet the criteria for full proscription. I am most malevolent pariah states. It is a destabilising influence aware that the Government do not comment on such across the middle east, and it now stretches its extremist matters, but perhaps the Minister can highlight that statecraft across Europe. discrepancy with cross-departmental colleagues. The Iran backs terrorism. In 2018, Members from this US includes non-nuclear Iranian targets in its sanctions House were caught up in an event in Paris; some people regime. Does the Minister agree that our new Magnitsky- in this room attended it. One of Iran’s front people tried style sanctions regime should be used to keep the pressure to murder people at that protest by way of a bomb. on Iran on non-nuclear issues? Many Members were moments from death. The person It is of great regret that the UK’s policy towards Iran who was accredited with carrying out that bombing was in recent years has failed to curtail its wider regional an Iranian diplomat who is now using his diplomatic aggression. Iran has shown no desire to come in from immunity to avoid prosecution. the cold, and continues to subvert regional peace and Iran sponsors direct links between Hezbollah and the stability. That stands in ever more stark contrast with Real IRA. Its radicalism drives via the Muslim Brotherhood the push for peace in the region that we have seen to radicalise people in this country. The UK has a between Israel and its Arab neighbours. Not only is it in choice to make to now—to urgently take action against the UK’s interest to curtail Iran’s regional aggression, the Muslim Brotherhood. It is a surrogate for Iran and but it is quite simply the right thing to do. It is incumbent for extremist ideology in this country. on the UK to work with our international partners to We have quite rightly proscribed Hezbollah, which was formulate a new strategy to combat the Iranian threat. funded by Iran. I believe that Iran uses other surrogates— The acceptance that Iran’s war by proxy and nuclear al-Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, Daesh and the programme are not mutually exclusive must be at the Real IRA—and I call on the UK Government to signal heart of our new programme. that they are now going to tackle the terrorism and There are some who say we should keep the JCPOA extremism sponsored by the Muslim Brotherhood seriously on life support indefinitely, as it is the only deal on the by signalling that they intend to proscribe that organisation table. In reality, that deal has been dead for some time, as urgently as possible. The Muslim Brotherhood is a and we must accept that in order to make progress. As cesspit for extremist ideology and for training young we all know, the US withdrew from the agreement people in this country to hate this country. We should in 2018, but President-elect Biden has expressed willingness be taking actions to pull them away from that. 429WH Government Policy on Iran9 DECEMBER 2020 Government Policy on Iran 430WH

Today, I have left in the House of Commons Library a Just yesterday, the UK and our French and German very important report by Cornerstone into the Fakhrizadeh allies warned Iran that its plans to expand its atomic assassination, which links some of the activities in energy programme risked the collapse of the international the Gulf with Qatar and Iran, and with the Muslim agreement put in place in 2015—the JCPOA. Last week, Brotherhood. Some of the reading in that report is very the Iranian Parliament voted to end UN inspections of worrying indeed. For example, it indicates that the its nuclear facilities and boost its uranium enrichment. USA—our partner—no longer shares information that Many lawmakers reportedly chanted “Death to America” has military intelligence associated with it with Doha, and “Death to Israel” following the vote. I am sure that because of its concerns over the proximity that Qatar in his summing up, the Minister will join me in condemning has to Iran. I know there is going to be a debate in the those actions and deeds. Tehran is enriching uranium to House on Qatar tomorrow, but these things do not a higher fissile purity than is permitted under the nuclear stand alone, and I urge Her Majesty’s Government to deal, and putting itself on a trajectory that brings it use their power, authority and influence to influence closer to possessing weapons-grade enriched uranium. Qatar to influence Iran to pull itself away from some of As I do not have much time left, I will go straight to these things. At the moment, we in the UK buy something my conclusion: our policy towards Iran should be based like 31% of all our gas from Qatar, which is astounding, on considerations of our security, our values and our vital and yet that country is playing a role in Iran, which is strategic interests. Our policy should mirror that of the influencing extremists in this country also. We really US and Israel, our allies, in saying that the Iranians must have to stand up for the Arab quartet—Saudi Arabia, never be allowed to develop a nuclear weapons capability. Egypt, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates—and help those countries stand up against the extremism 2.54 pm sponsored by Iran. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller, 2.51 pm and I congratulate the hon. Member for Henley Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): It is (John Howell) both on securing this debate and on an a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller, excellent speech. I found himself in agreement with and I congratulate my dear Friend the hon. Member for most of what he said. Henley (John Howell) on securing this important debate. My view is simple: not only does Iran support terrorist Forgive me if I repeat some of the points that he groups and foment unrest across the middle east, but its touched on. strategic aim is an arc of influence from Tehran to the Iran is a malign and malevolent influence in the Gulf Mediterranean sea and the border with Israel. It is region and more widely, and has been since the Islamic currently fitting global positioning systems to its Zelzal-2 revolution in 1979. Its actions greatly concern us in the UK, missiles for that purpose. Iran recently showed on state as a P5+1 member,a signatory of the joint comprehensive television pictures of one of its missiles, with the words plan of action—the Iranian nuclear deal—and a nation along the side in Hebrew: “Israel must be wiped out.” with a long history of vital strategic interests in the region. Iran is absolutely clear about its objective. Its supreme Despite recent moves by other Gulf states to promote a leader said in 2015 that it was his intention that Israel be more peaceful neighbourhood, such as Israel signing a destroyed within 25 years, with or without a nuclear peace deal with the UAE, Iran continues to promote agreement. Iran’s ideology is simply riddled with a terrorism and instability throughout the Gulf and the hatred of Jews. wider middle east. It is supporting the Houthi militia in Iran is not content with suppression at home or the civil war in Yemen; it is supporting Hezbollah and turning the middle east into a cauldron. We have heard, other proxies to prolong the “no war, no peace” struggle as the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) against Israel; it has undertaken attacks on shipping in said, that Iran’s agents are active across Europe. I think the Gulf; it continues to work towards developing a that it was last year that our own security services found nuclear weapons capability, despite the 2015 nuclear a Hezbollah bomb-making factory in north London. deal; and it uses hostage diplomacy. The terrible case of And in Belgium at the moment, we are witnessing Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe is a very obvious example. In scenes that could come from a John le Carré novel, with all these matters Iran has shown consistent bad faith, Asadollah Asadi, a diplomat from Iran’s embassy in and demonstrated its destructive and aggressive policy Austria, on trial for both planning and facilitating an towards its neighbours and us in the west. attack on an opposition rally in Paris. Apparently, when questioned, he threatened reprisals from the regime if Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab): My constituent, there was any attempt to take action against him. Also, Mr Anoosheh Ashoori, was captured some three years of course, Foreign Minister Zarif has recently conceded ago while visiting his sick mother in Tehran, and has that Iran is interested in prisoner swaps, which possibly since been held in prison under really brutal conditions, explains why innocent dual nationals are being seized; which have included solitary confinement and physical they may be insurance against further terrorist attacks. torture. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that British This is a regime that I say we cannot negotiate with. citizens such as Mr Ashoori who are subject to unjust If there is any attempt to negotiate with it, President-elect trial are being held as hostages due to their dual nationality, Biden should not go back to the joint comprehensive and that the UK Government must acknowledge them plan of action. And if we have any influence on the as such? President-elect, I hope that the Minister will say that we must stick with what the President-elect himself said Jack Lopresti: I completely agree with the hon. Lady: during the primaries—that we need a stronger and longer something must be done. These terrible acts, which are arrangement, which must include Iran’s terrorist activities clearly politically motivated, need to be sorted by HMG. and ballistic missile programme. And we should certainly 431WH Government Policy on Iran9 DECEMBER 2020 Government Policy on Iran 432WH

[Steve McCabe] 3 pm Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): It is a proscribe the IRGC, because it is a terrorist organisation pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller. and should not be allowed to operate anywhere in I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Henley Europe, let alone in this country. (John Howell) on securing this debate. I will not repeat the points that he made. 2.57 pm At a time when the United Kingdom needs to be really Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): I congratulate clear-sighted about our strategic priorities and international my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) objectives, our policy on Iran risks appearing—forgive on securing this debate and agree with everything that me for saying this—confused and unclear. We are caught he said. I am now, unfortunately, in my fourth decade of between, on the one hand, a desire for rapprochement saying negative things about the Iranian regime; it and normalisation of relations with Iran, and on the would be good to still be here in Parliament when I can other hand, the certain knowledge that Iran’s posture say something positive about it. However, I was not best on the international stage is a negative one. Its activities pleased when I read in the newspapers recently that when across the middle east are deeply harmful to the region I was leading a delegation at a rally in Paris in 2018 I and are a direct threat to global peace, our own interests was, together with one or two colleagues who are present and those of our closest allies. in this Chamber today, the target of a terrorist attack. The desire for normalisation was enshrined in the As we take the presidency of the G7 next year, the re-establishment of diplomatic relations with Iran in United Kingdom will be at the centre of the world 2015. The hope at the time was that—we were in stage,with increased opportunities to influence international government, Mrs Miller—that would herald the beginning policy. Even though it was agreed last year at the G7 of a new, brighter phase of UK-Iran relations, and that summit in France that we would foster peace and stability the UK would somehow play a role in helping Iran find in the middle east, and ensure that Iran never acquires its way back into the mainstream of the international nuclear weapons, that message needs to be reiterated community. The truth is that the hopes that we had at and taken further. I was very encouraged by the words the time were not well founded. Although it might still of my right hon. Friend the Minister, but it has not say on the gov.uk website that we believe the outlook always been the case that the Government have taken for UK-Iran trade is positive, and that we want to see that view. Nevertheless, I thought that what he said was greater engagement between UK businesses and Iran, splendid and I very much hope that he will take it even reflecting a desire for normalisation, what is the reality? further when he responds to the debate. This year, 2020, has demonstrated what the reality is. In November 2019, the Iranian regime killed at least The year started on 11 January in Tehran with the 304 people and injured thousands more at peaceful illegal arrest of our ambassador by the Iranian regime, protests, using lethal force and institutional violence. in a complete violation of international law. We said at However, the death count may be much higher than the time that Iran was at a crossroads moment, and that that, as Government forces confiscated the bodies of it faced a choice whether to continue its march towards the dead protesters to hide the true casualty count. pariah status. Wewarned that there would be consequences Last week, the Iranian Parliament voted to end the if it chose that path, and that is exactly what it has chosen. UN’s inspections of Iran’s nuclear facilities and to It has spent the year openly, belligerently and defiantly boost Iran’suranium enrichment. I hope that the Minister’s breaching its obligations, breaking international law and Department is working carefully with our close allies to breaking its commitments under the JCPOA, and it is create a more robust deal that particularly focuses on not clear to me what the Government’s response has been. deterring Iran’s human rights abuses. Of course we have I do not understand, for example, why—I am sorry to all received countless emails about Nazanin Zaghari- say this—we sat on our hands at the United Nations in Ratcliffe, who is a constituent of the hon. Member for August and did not support our closest allies,the Americans, Lewisham East (Janet Daby), as the hon. Lady mentioned. in voting for an extension of the arms embargo on Iran. I went to see Nazanin’s husband when he was on hunger I do not understand why we continue to try to keep the strike last year, and I very much hope that we will JCPOA on life support when it is clear that there were continue to build on the pressure created by that action. huge failings in that agreement. Iran’s global terrorism reach has infiltrated Europe I will finish shortly to allow others to speak. I know and, as I have said, it has transpired that at a rally in the Minister understands these issues thoroughly; we 2018 Iran’s supreme leader, Ali Khamenei, decided to have discussed them previously. I urge him: I want to see launch a terrorist attack; some people may be disappointed the UK Government playing a really strategic role between that it was unsuccessful, but I am very pleased. the EU and the new American Administration and looking In conclusion, we must address the regime’s diplomatic towards a new agreement that does not just narrowly focus blackmail and acts of terrorism in Europe and hold on nuclear-related obligations, but deals with Iran’sballistic those responsible to account by imposing sanctions on missile programme, its support for terror, its human the regime’s leaders and officials. I know that oil is very rights abuses and its systematic undermining of democracy important, but we must be firm on this. We must all across the region. That would be the clear-sighted, include a halt to the regime’s ballistic missile programme positive role that the United Kingdom could play. and uranium enrichment programme. We must make any future diplomatic and economic relations contingent 3.4 pm upon an end to the regime’s state terrorism. By doing Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is nice to serve under that and supporting the National Council of Resistance your chairmanship, Mrs Miller. I am pleased that my good of Iran, we can help to bring peace and stability to Iran. friend, the hon. Member for Henley (John Howell), has And we should do more to support Mrs Maryam Rajavi. led the debate. It is a pleasure to be alongside him again. 433WH Government Policy on Iran9 DECEMBER 2020 Government Policy on Iran 434WH

I declare an interest as chair of the all-party group for Bahá’í community and exert veritable diplomatic pressure international freedom of religion or belief, but I want to on Iran to deal fairly and appropriately with the Bahá’í speak about one specific group of people whom I have community. spoken about before. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman and I have both spoken about the Bahá’í faith in Iran. It will 3.7 pm be no surprise to anyone in this Chamber that I am going to use this opportunity to highlight a religious Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): I congratulate my group that is under massive pressure in Iran: those of hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) on the Bahá’í faith. I have spoken about them many times. securing this important debate. While the world’sattention Not only they are subject to persecution, discrimination has quite rightly been on coronavirus, Iran has continued and violence, but Christian groups are as well. Women to violate the terms of the 2015 nuclear deal without in Iran are subject to many things: acid attacks, violence, facing significant consequence. Those violations have imprisonment, job losses and so on. already been clearly set out already, so I will not repeat them. Bahá’ís continue to be denied access to higher education in Iran, and most are excluded by national entrance The UK was right to trigger the dispute-resolution examinations, when their files are returned as “incomplete”, mechanism alongside France and Germany in January, as they are not from one of the four constitutionally sending a strong—if overdue—signal that Iran’s non- recognised religions. A small number of Bahá’ís are compliance would no longer be tolerated. The terms of admitted to university, but often face interrogation about the nuclear deal clearly state that if the issue had not their religious beliefs—that happens all the time. They been resolved by the Joint Commission within 15 days have the choice to recant their faith or face expulsion. following the triggering of the DRM, and if the complaining There is a real focus of discrimination on them. Those participant felt that the issue constituted “significant practices align with the provisions of the 1991 secret non-performance”, they could refer it to the UN Security memorandum on “the Bahá’í question”, which stipulated Council for a vote on a resolution to continue lifting that Bahá’ís must sanctions. Back in August, seven months on from the triggering of the DRM, the E3 identified “be expelled from universities, either in the admission process or “systematic Iranian non-compliance with its…obligations”. during the course of their studies, once it becomes known that they are Bahá’ís.” In the light of that, it is reasonable to ask why the issue has not, so far, been referred to the UN Security Council. At every stage, from entering universities to studying there, Bahá’ís are discriminated against. The most troubling outcome of that inaction was the expiry of the UN conventional arms embargo on Iran A number of Bahá’ís pursue degree-level studies through in October. The E3 said that it had the volunteer-run Bahá’í Institute for Higher Education, “serious concerns regarding the implications for regional security but they, too, face repression for seeking an education. of the scheduled expiry…particularly given Iran’s destabilising On 22 May 2020, one Bahá’í student had her sentence activities, which continue unabated.” of six years’ imprisonment extended to seven years and Why, then, given Iran’s continued non-compliance, was was made subject to a two-year ban on working in the embargo permitted to expire? Iran is now free to public sector jobs through the tazir law provisions. That acquire advanced weaponry from Russia and China, is further discrimination. The student, the mother of an having signed a reported $400 billion strategic deal with infant child, was charged with propaganda against the the latter. I look forward to the Minister’s response to regime and membership of opposition groups.Fortunately, those points. she obtained her university degree through the BIEHA. Her degree was probably better than those from other Non-compliance with the nuclear deal is not all that universities. should concern us about the Iranian regime’s actions. We have seen Iran emerge as a leading state sponsor of Since Dr Hassan Rouhani assumed the presidency in terrorism in the middle east and beyond. It provided August 2013, more than 283 Bahá’ís have been arrested funds and weapons to terrorists in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and thousands barred access to education, and there and Yemen. The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps have been least 645 acts of economic oppression, including has used the Quds Force and proxies such as Hezbollah the intimidation of Bahá’í business professionals and to carry out espionage and terror attacks globally. the closure and prevention of Bahá’í businesses. I read a Colleagues have set out how Iran’s regional ambitions briefing that said that it is vital that the United Nations, have a malign and destabilising effect on the middle Governments and Parliaments around the world continue east, but it is essential to note that its actions have a to hold Iran accountable for its violations of the rights global reach, including here in the United Kingdom. of its own citizens, including the innocent Bahá’í Iran’s proxy, Hezbollah, has been active here since community. They are a lovely people, as those who have the 1980s.Just five years ago, a Hezbollah cell in north-west met them will know. London was caught stockpiling 3 metric tonnes of During this time of global crisis owing to the covid-19 ammonium nitrate. Let us be under no illusion: Iranian- pandemic, the long-standing persecution of Bahá’ís in inspired extremism is a serious security threat to the Iran has increased. That has been evident in the number UK, and plays an active role in disrupting social cohesion of arrests and imprisonments in that community, as and community relations in this country and across Europe. well as changes to legislation and the penal code, and We have seen this hate spill over onto the streets of arbitrary punishments against Bahá’ís on the grounds our capital—a good example is the al-Quds day march, of their religious belief. I believe that the Government where we have seen Hezbollah flags being waved. have a responsibility to highlight and support the Bahá’í Hezbollah’sofficialtelevisionstation,Al-Manar,isspreading faith, ensuring that any policy on Iran must help the antisemitic hate speech and conspiracy theories, glorifying 435WH Government Policy on Iran9 DECEMBER 2020 Government Policy on Iran 436WH

[Robert Largan] The Arab world should be commended on how far it has been willing to come in such a short time, and on or terror and violence, including a 29-part drama based on the statesmanship of its leaders in setting aside old and the antisemitic text, “The Protocols of the Elders of bitter rivalries with the region’s only democracy. To Zion”. quote a common Arabic phrase, “Eljyaat ahsan men In conclusion, spreading misinformation and radicalising elrayhat”—“What is coming is better than what has people is part and parcel of Tehran’s agenda; it is our been”. Iran is looking increasingly like the outlier in the responsibility to be vigilant against this, and to robustly middle east. protect minority communities in this country, as well as In closing, I would urge colleagues in the Government to stand firm with our allies against Iran’s malign to redouble our efforts to bring the Iranian regime to activities in the middle east. The stakes are high and a account. We owe it to the people here at home; we owe failure of statecraft would have untold consequences. A it to our friends in the middle east, and we owe it to the major rethink is needed. Iranian people. There will come a day when Iran is a free nation again, loosened from the dogmatic and extreme 3.10 pm regime that grips it, but that will not be an easy process. Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con): There is a Persian expression: “Baa yek dast nemitunaan May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your do hendhuneh bardaasht”—“You can’tlift twowatermelons chairmanship, Mrs Miller? I thank my hon. Friend the with one hand”. It means that one should always get Member for Henley (John Howell) for securing this debate. some help. The Iranian people need a hand, and we Iran is a part of the world steeped in history, culture, should be willing to reach out. art, and religion, from the Seleucids to the Parthians and the Sassanids to the Rashidun caliphate and beyond. 3.14 pm This is a part of the world that I greatly admire, so what Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): Iran boasts a follows is not a criticism of the Iranian people but, long and rich history that has played a crucial role in rather, of the regime which controls their country and influencing culture, art, poetry, science and philosophy has set back thousands of years of progress. across the globe. Not only is Iran home to one of the Iran is a bad actor on the world stage. We are not oldest civilisations, which began with the creation of dealing with a country that has much interest in the Elamite kingdoms in 3300 BC, but it is also home to the international rule of law or standards of human rights Cyrus cylinder, the first historically recognised universal and transparency, which we and our partners would charter of human rights, created in 534 BC, pre-dating consider the baseline for a country’s conduct in the the Magna Carta by well over a millennium. wider world. Tehran is enriching uranium to a higher Regrettably, the Minister will be aware that the Iran fissile purity than is permitted under the JCPOA, and is we know today is very different from the one we look on track to possess weapons-grade enriched uranium. back to and admire. Today’s Iran is one of the world’s This is not a clandestine activity by a secretive state; it is biggest state sponsors of terrorism and home to one of a flagrant and belligerent provocation by a thugocracy. the deadliest dictatorships in the world. Human rights Iran continues brazenly to violate the terms of the abuses are rife. Hundreds of Iranian civilians have been JCPOA, and it has failed to engage in constructive killed by their own Government. Protesters have been dialogue. I would urge Ministers to consider what the brutally repressed and religious minorities such as the next steps are. Bahá’í face persecution. Iran’smalfeasance is not limited to its nuclear ambitions. On the international stage, Iran’s stratagem threatens In January, I had an opportunity to visit the Golan the regional balance of power, our interests in the heights in Israel. Just a short distance from where I region and our own national security. Tehran openly stood, a bloody, brutal civil war is raging. “Civil” is, in supports the terrorist group Hezbollah, providing it all honesty, a terrible misnomer for what is happening with financial aid, weapons, munitions and military in Syria—it is the systemic suppression of that country’s training. One attack orchestrated by Hezbollah, fortunately people by a despot. Iran has invested millions in military followed by MI5, was against targets in our own capital, assistance for Bashar al-Assad’s regime. London. In 2017, Iran reportedly carried out a cyber-attack In Lebanon, Hezbollah controls the country’s southern on the UK Parliament and against email accounts border with Israel and acts with the impunity of a belonging to Cabinet Ministers and our Prime Minister. terrorist state, regularly staging attacks on its neighbour. Allowing Iran to continue these attacks affronts, The common thread, again, is substantial financing by insults and diminishes our position in the eyes of the Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard. It has become a world. Releasing the Iranian oil tanker Grace 1 was prolific and notorious state sponsor of terror; its tentacles nothing short of a national embarrassment and undermined are wrapped around each of its regional neighbours, our image as a reliable ally that does not buckle under and it cannot be treated separately from its proxy. pressure. If we wish to better secure our national security Our Israeli friends have an expression: “Ve’im lo and bolster our reputation in the eyes of our allies, a achshav aymatai”—“And if not now, when?” In recent much stronger stance must be taken against Iran. Now months, Israel has agreed landmark peace deals with is an excellent opportunity to demonstrate our willingness the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Sudan, and to stand up to the tyrants of Tehran, whether for those outstanding achievements are evidence of a new breaching the joint comprehensive plan of action, their direction of travel for a more peaceful and prosperous flagrant disregard of fundamental human rights or middle east. The normalisation of Israel’s relations with their financing of terrorism. its regional neighbours is underscored by a shared The UN arms embargo on Iran expired in October, common concern about both Iran’s nuclear ambitions which now provides Iran with a chance freely to purchase and its sponsorship of terror through its proxies. deadly weaponry. We have an opportunity to campaign 437WH Government Policy on Iran9 DECEMBER 2020 Government Policy on Iran 438WH for the reinstatement of the embargo and even to unilaterally foothold in the Persian gulf: a vantage point on a establish our own embargoes. Other measures must be globally important shipping lane, and a listening post considered, such as further trade sanctions for failure to covering the middle east. We know the importance of adhere to the articles of the joint comprehensive plan of that region and should remember that it was only action. The use of Magnitsky-style sanctions against months ago that we had to arrange Royal Navy escorts key targets in the Iranian regime that propagate human for vessels passing through. I urge the Minister and the rights abuses would send a strong message to the opposition Government to reflect on some of these emerging strategic and to Iran’s Government. challenges as the Government proceed with the integrated In the post-Brexit era, the United Kingdom no longer review. has the obligation to side with Brussels in our policy on Iran—a policy that has too often been based on Mrs Maria Miller (in the Chair): Before I call the next appeasement. We should work instead with our strongest speaker, may I say that for the last two speakers, friends and allies, notably the United States, to become unfortunately, it will be two minutes so that we finish on a true champion of freedom and an opponent of those time? There will be a full three minutes, however, for in Iran who effectively hold their own people hostage. Brendan Clarke-Smith. 3.20 pm 3.17 pm Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) (Con): Thank you, Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): I congratulate Mrs Miller. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) for Henley (John Howell) on securing this important on securing this important debate. I shall begin by debate today. At the time of the JCPOA signing in 2015, talking about sanctions relief and how that has helped proponents of the agreement argued that it would encourage to shape the challenges we face today; I think we may Iran to moderate its behaviour and reduce its systematic have made the same mistake twice. human rights abuses. However, since the deal was signed, Prior to the JCPOA, the international community human rights abuses have escalated—from unlawful had constructed one of the most stringent and far-reaching executions and arrests to torture, forced confessions, sanctions regimes of modern times. It was the result of unfair trials without due process, repression of the strong global co-operation and had the necessary impact press, and discrimination against women and minorities. of bringing Iran to the negotiating table. As part of the Women are punished for poor wearing of the hijab, JCPOA, many of those sanctions were lifted almost which is mandatory, while homosexuality is illegal and immediately. We must be cautious in removing them punishable by death. and proceed slowly; as the old proverb goes, we must Although many hailed Iran’s President Rouhani as a “trust but verify”. moderate, the indisputable fact is that oppression and The sanctions relief brought billions of dollars to the use of the death penalty have soared under his Iran. We know that, far from curtailing its activities leadership. At least 251 people were executed in Iran in since the JCPOA came into force, Iran has stepped up 2019, the second highest figure in the world after China. its proxy activities, as we have heard today, using terrorism Iran ignored pleas from the international community to as a form of foreign policy.It has increased its investment spare the life of 27-year-old national wrestling champion in violence, openly seeking to extend its Hezbollah Navid Afkari, who was reportedly tortured into confessing franchise into southern Syria and even replicating that to murder. Mr Afkari was executed by hanging in approach in Iraq. September this year. In November 2019, at least 304 people We made a similar mistake when we failed to extend were killed by the Iranian regime, and thousands were the UN arms embargo. That has now given Iran’s future injured when lethal force was used to crush nationwide defence contracts the undesirable cover of legitimacy. economic protests. Iran’s press freedom has been all but As a result, regional neighbours of Iran will undoubtedly eliminated, with dozens of journalists, bloggers and feel compelled to strengthen their own defence capabilities cartoonists jailed for issuing material deemed contrary and we will need to stand ready to support them in to the Islamic Republic’s values and principles. It is doing that, including by encouraging further steps towards unsurprising that Iran ranked 173 out of 180 nations in peace between the Gulf nations and Israel. the world press freedom index this year—down from We also need to think carefully about the steps that 170 last year. China is taking with Iran. Our own relationship with What is permitted and, in fact, celebrated, is holocaust China has changed in recent years and will no doubt denial. Tehran launched its third holocaust denial cartoon continue to do so. We should of course work together contest in September this year, which also urged entrants on our shared challenges, but with a clear eye on the to paint as traitors any nations that made peace with strategic issues, because China is using all the tools at its Israel. The disgraceful event is a project of the art zone disposal to influence activity, including not just foreign division of Iran’s Islamic propagation organisation, policy, but economic and security policy. As my hon. which reports directly to the regime’s supreme leader, Friend the Member for Henley said, reports indicate Ali Khamenei. The supreme leader himself has repeatedly that China is advancing a strategic agreement with Iran— called for the destruction of Israel, and the ultimate a 25-year deal worth $400 billion. Already Iran’s largest target of Iran’s nuclear activities and regional terrorism trading partner, the deal will see massive injections of is self-evident. Chinese investment into areas such as energy,infrastructure, We are all aware of the plight of Nazanin Zaghari- and telecoms, as well as defence. The potential of joint Ratcliffe, the British-Iranian mother held hostage by Iranian-Chinese training exercises, intelligence sharing, Iran; the appalling treatment she has faced is further military research and development and more poses a evidence that Iran has not come in from the cold since clear challenge to UK interests in the region and beyond. the nuclear agreement was signed. Hon. Members will Further plans would also see China establish a strategic remember that our ambassador to Iran was arrested at 439WH Government Policy on Iran9 DECEMBER 2020 Government Policy on Iran 440WH

[Brendan Clarke-Smith] financial and material support to extremist Islamist terrorist groups across the middle east, including Hezbollah a vigil for victims after Iran shot down a Ukrainian in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza. passenger plane in January. In separating Iran’s nuclear Iran not only supports acts of terrorism, it seeks to programme from its other destructive and repressive form militias in parallel to national armies throughout actions, the JCPOA failed adequately to hold Iran to the region, in order to bolster its influence. Iran’s Islamic account. The human rights situation has deteriorated Revolutionary Guard Corps is tasked with exporting significantly, and a reset on the UK’s policy towards Iranian revolution, with its infamous Quds Force Iran should urgently address that fact. establishing pro-Iranian proxy militias in other countries. Those forces are created using the IRGC’s effective 3.23 pm blueprint, which includes the creation of social welfare projects financed by Iran, in order to take advantage of Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con): For the sake power vacuums and gain support in local communities of brevity, I shall skip to the point. This debate provides for the militias. a timely opportunity to highlight the issues regarding Iran’s activity globally and, more specifically, here in As we have heard, Hezbollah has amassed an arsenal the UK. The Iranian regime has a long history of of up to 150,000 rockets on Lebanon’s border with Israel, propagating antisemitism, often including holocaust and currently has an estimated 45,000 fighters, many of denial, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw whom have extensive battle experience from their time (Brendan Clarke-Smith) has just outlined. in Syria, where Iran is deeply engaged in supporting Assad’s regime. In May this year, Iran’s supreme leader compared In a speech on 22 March this year in response to a Zionism with a virus and a cancerous tumour, and said coronavirus outbreak, the ayatollah himself, in an attempt that Israel must be eliminated as soon as possible. to blame the USA, claimed that Jews were experts at Hamas, meanwhile, has fully restored its military strength sorcery and were creating relationships with demons. to levels before the 2014 Operation Protective Edge He previously called the holocaust a myth. In recent conflict in Gaza, including its rocket arsenal, military years, there have been at least two high-profile international infrastructure and attack tunnels infiltrating Israeli territory. holocaust cartoon competitions held in Iran, with Last year, the US designated the IRGC as a foreign Government support. The most recent competition was terrorist organisation, the first time a part of another held in 2016 and, according to the US Holocaust Memorial Government has been named an FTO. The US said that Museum, included 150 entries. that underscored the fact that Iran’s actions were Iran has been designated a state sponsor of terrorism fundamentally different from those of other Governments. since 1984 by the US State Department, which considers The US was right to state that the IRGC was the it to be the world’s worst state sponsor of terrorism. Iranian Government’s primary means for directing and Iran’s support for terrorism is a global threat, particularly implementing its global terrorist campaign. I urge the for the Jewish community, which has been repeatedly Minister to encourage governmental colleagues to examine targeted. The most noticeable example is the 1994 Hezbollah the IRGC for proscription, as the hon. Member for bombing of the AMIA building, a Jewish community Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) has already centre in Buenos Aires, killing 85 and injuring hundreds. outlined, following the welcome move to proscribe In doing so, the bombing ripped the heart out of the Hezbollah in its entirety. community. This continued threat is a major reason why Jewish Mrs Maria Miller (in the Chair): We now move on to communities around the world, including in the UK, contributions from the Front Bench. Please leave two require security at schools, synagogues, community centres minutes at the end for John Howell to wind up. and events. I would like to pay tribute to the fantastic 3.28 pm work of the Community Security Trust, in keeping not just the Jewish community but my constituents safe, as Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP): It is a pleasure to serve they go about their daily life. under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller. I, too, congratulate In 2012 alone, Iran or Hezbollah were connected to the hon. Member for Henley (John Howell) on bringing incidents targeting Jewish communities or Israeli interest this important debate to the Chamber and on his impressive groups in India, Georgia, Thailand, Singapore, Cyprus, speech, with which I agreed entirely. I can be brief this Azerbaijan, Bulgaria and Kenya. Those incidents need afternoon because a number of excellent points have to stop. I will conclude by echoing—and I will refer to already been made. Iran is a complicated place; the middle him this way—my hon. Friend the Member for east itself is complicated. Everything is connected to Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) in calling for everything else and Iran is behind many of the region’s the IRGC to be proscribed by the Government. problems. We should not turn a blind eye to rights abuses anywhere, whether in Israel, Gaza, Yemen, Saudi or, 3.26 pm indeed, Iran, whose actions in fomenting terrorism abroad Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): It is a and developing nuclear weapons,and oppressing opposition pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller. and minorities at home, must have consequences. All I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Henley that said, I would always tend towards dialogue. Although (John Howell) on securing this timely and important I fully agree with the misgivings on the failings of the debate. Since the signing of the nuclear deal in July 2015, JCPOA that we have heard today, I believe that there is Iran’s regional aggression has continued unabated, as an opportunity for a reset with an incoming American has its deeply troubling human rights record, which Administration that has a different tone towards Iran. I remains one of the worst in the world. The Islamic Republic would be grateful if the Minister could give his assessment is still a leading sponsor of state terrorism, providing of the opportunity for a reset. 441WH Government Policy on Iran9 DECEMBER 2020 Government Policy on Iran 442WH

In parallel with that aspiration, however far in the dangerous individuals. I look forward to hearing whether future, Iran’s actions must have consequences. One thing much progress has been made within the FCDO on that that I am surprised has not been mentioned thus far is question. Magnitsky sanctions. We have an appropriate toolkit I also want to highlight the excitement that perhaps for targeting sanctions on individuals in the regime. Mr Biden will bring a fresh change. Many hon. Members There has already been movement in that direction, and have questioned whether the JCPOA is a bit tired. It is I would be grateful if the Minister can comment on the always hard to have to reinvent things that were the scope for further targeted sanctions against those regime thing in 2015. Hon. Members who were here in 2015 individuals. Our problem is not with the Iranian people; will remember that the then Member for Runnymede Iran has a proud history and hopefully a bright future. and Weybridge came and spoke to the House, and we It is a complicated place, and there are forces of progress, could hear a pin drop because it was such an important however weak, within Iranian politics, which we can moment. That is hard to recreate, so we need some very strengthen. However, the Iranian Government policy creative experts in the FCDO to bring us another solution. has to change. I agree with a number of the points that Hopefully, it can bring dialogue so that we can talk right hon. and hon. Members have made, and if the about human rights, non-proliferation and eventually Minister works in that direction, he can rest assured of some form of good, high-quality economic involvement the SNP’s support. in the future. I also want to touch on the crucial dialogue with 3.30 pm Israel, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi with the aim of reducing tensions in the region and laying the Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): It foundations for future co-operation. Hon. Members is a delight to contribute to this important debate under have mentioned the role that the G7 will play in the your chairmanship, Mrs Miller. coming 12 months. I wonder whether our leadership of I want to highlight the immense suffering of the COP and the climate challenge provides another work Iranian people during covid. Iran has been particularly stream that we could introduce into any future dialogue. badly affected due to its broken economy and its high I want to highlight the ongoing harassment and level of disease. We must always bear in mind in foreign persecution of the staff and journalists of the BBC policy discussions that there are human beings there who Persian service. The Iranian authorities have been suffer enormously because of politics that goes wrong. systematically targeting BBC Persian journalists, who In foreign policy terms—that is the essay question for are mainly based in the UK, and their families in Iran today—Iran has remained a significant challenge for all since the service launched on satellite TV in 2009. That of us in western countries for many years with its is a form of terror. Intimidation of BBC Persian staff’s woeful human rights record, the low role of women in family members in Iran is a regular occurrence and has society,the proxy wars in the region, the nuclear programme increased in the past three years. We have a duty to and the high-profile hostage diplomacy.I have a constituent stand up for the free press. I urge the Minister to who is currently in Evin prison with Nazanin Zaghari- highlight the support that the Government are providing Ratcliffe. to the BBC and to clarify whether such attacks and Obviously, the past four years, with President Trump occurrences have been brought up in engagement with in the White House, have been rather unpredictable, and the Government. the question is whether it has helped the dialogue that I have about one minute— needs to happen on Iran. We know that the recent assassinations of the military general Qasem Soleimani Mrs Maria Miller (in the Chair): Take as much time and the nuclear expert Mohsen Fakhrizadeh—excuse as you wish. my pronunciation; I believe that we have a Farsi speaker Catherine West: Lovely. I have enjoyed the debate among us—have been subject to high-profile reporting and hearing the many contributions from the different in Iran, and I believe that has made it a little more regions and parts of our Parliament. I hope that the difficult to enter into dialogue. Minister can bring us an exciting new alternative to The US’s2018 withdrawal from the joint comprehensive what appears to be a dangerous situation, with the plan of action, which was carefully crafted by human rights of so many affected and so many suffering— Baroness Ashton in the other place as our EU high particularly the diaspora. Many of us have people who representative back then, has increased tensions between come to our advice surgeries to tell us of the pain and the US and Iran, and I believe has undermined progress suffering in Iran. I also hope that he will bring some on the nuclear programme. The hon. Member for Henley solace for those of us who are worried about Nazanin (John Howell) mentioned the important deadline that Zaghari-Ratcliffe and all the others still in prison in we have on deterrence in 2023. I hope that the International Evin and other places for no good reason except that Atomic Energy Agency verification process can step up, they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong and that there can be more international observers so time. That hostage diplomacy must stop—we all agree that we know exactly what is happening in terms of on that across the aisle. I look forward to the Minister’s proliferation. contribution and clarification on those questions. Obviously,the issue of US sanctions and the Magnitsky question are very much for the Minister. I look forward 3.36 pm to hearing what his position on that is and what the The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office is (James Cleverly): It is a pleasure to serve under your currently thinking about the scope. The Magnitsky chairmanship, Mrs Miller. I am genuinely grateful to tools are new for us in the UK, but they provide an my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) opportunity to clamp down on a small number of very for bringing forward this important debate, which is 443WH Government Policy on Iran9 DECEMBER 2020 Government Policy on Iran 444WH

[James Cleverly] in Iran’s commitment to preserving the deal. Alongside our E3 partners, France and Germany, we have worked clearly of interest to right hon. and hon. Members from hard to preserve the deal. It currently remains the only every part of the House. I am grateful for their informed way to monitor and constrain Iran’s nuclear programme. and passionate contributions. A number of right hon. and hon. Members have Getting our approach to Iran right is of incredible mentioned snapback. We maintain the ability to snap importance, and it is clear from how well attended back UN sanctions on Iran and we have made it clear to today’s debate is that there is a strong feeling on this Iran that it must remain in compliance in order to issue right across the House. Those feelings have been preserve the deal. We will continue to support the deal expressed today. Before I address as many of the points for as long as it provides the benefits that I have mentioned. raised as I can, it is right that, as has been mentioned by We will engage with the incoming Biden Administration a number of hon. Members, our criticism—unfortunately, to see whether we can strengthen and extend the deal criticism will come—is not of the Iranian people. These further, to address the non-nuclear malign activity that are a people—indeed, Iran is a country—with a fantastic Iran undertakes against its regional neighbours, because history, a marvellous heritage and a tradition in the arts I share their concerns and the concerns expressed today and the sciences. My hon. Friend the Member for about the continued risk of escalation in the region. Southend West (Sir David Amess) said he has spoken in Conflict is in none of our interests. critical terms about Iran for four decades and hopes We continue to urge Iran to show restraint and to that, in the near future, he will be able to speak in avoid any actions that might escalate tension in the positive terms about Iran. I echo that. There is so much region, and we echo those calls to its regional neighbours. about Iran that could be spoken of in positive terms, We have long been clear about our concerns over Iran’s but unfortunately today we find we are more critical destabilising activity in the region, including, as has than speaking in praise. It saddens me that that is the been mentioned this afternoon, its political, financial case, but nevertheless that is the situation we find and military support to a number of militant and ourselves in. proscribed organisations and groups, including Hezbollah The Government’s priorities with regard to Iran are in Lebanon and in Syria, militias in Iraq and the to prevent a nuclear-armed Iran, to promote stability Houthis in Yemen. and security in the region and to secure the permanent release of all detained British dual nationals. My right Catherine West: I thank the Minister for giving way; hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has consistently made he is very generous. Does he see a possible role for it clear that we favour a diplomatic solution that addresses Magnitsky sanctions in relation to any financial facilitation the international community’s concerns about Iran’s perhaps assisting those sorts of groups external to Iran, nuclear programme and, in parallel, seeks to address so that we can use the might of the City of London to both its destabilising behaviour in the region and its clamp down on any illegal facilitation of that kind of behaviour to its own people within its borders. activity? President-elect Biden has said that if Iran returns to James Cleverly: The hon. Lady makes a very good compliance with the JCPOA, the US will re-enter the point. Let us be crystal clear: Iranian support for those agreement and seek both to strengthen and to extend it. groups contravenes UN Security Council resolutions This is an important opportunity to restart the engagement and breaches international law. We currently hold Iran between Iran and the United States of America and to to account through a list of over 200 EU sanctions that realise the full set of objectives set out in the joint are currently in place, including those against the Islamic comprehensive plan of action, which we support. Revolutionary Guard Corps in its entirety. In the meantime, we remain clear that Iran must The hon. Lady mentioned our new autonomous reverse its systematic non-compliance with the nuclear Magnitsky-style sanctions, as did other right hon. and commitments under the JCPOA. Weare deeply concerned hon. Members. We have heard those calls. Right hon. by Iran’s actions and, in particular, its research and and hon. Members will understand that we never discuss development and stockpiling of low-enriched uranium, future designations under our autonomous sanction which is in breach of the terms of the nuclear deal. If regimes, to prevent the risk of individuals removing Iran is serious about the JCPOA, it must not implement assets that we might seek to freeze, but the calls for us to the recent law passed by the Iranian Parliament to take review the actions of members of the Iranian regime, in further steps in violation of the JCPOA. That would light of the sanction regime, have been heard and noticed. undermine the important opportunity to return to We continue to support the enforcement of UN diplomacy that the incoming US Administration have prohibitions on the proliferation of weapons to non-state offered. Iran has a choice, and we strongly urge it to actors in the region. We are committed to work with take the sensible, pragmatic choice of moving back regional partners, the E3 and the US to find a solution towards diplomacy. to Iranian proliferation in the region. Our objectives remain to use the structures set out Our concerns are not limited to Iran’snuclear programme under the deal to address Iranian non-compliance and or regional behaviour. A number of Members, including to reopen the door for re-engagement with the United the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), highlighted States. We have not yet exhausted the dispute procedures Iran’s actions towards its own people and its minority set out in the JCPOA. To advance the discussions, the communities. Iran’s heavy-handed response to protests, joint committee of the JCPOA will be held on 16 December its restrictions on freedom of expression, belief and at official level and followed shortly afterwards by a religion, its use of the death penalty and its continued ministerial meeting of the JCPOA participants. Iran use of arbitrary detention, including to British dual must engage on a route back to compliance through the nationals, remain of deep concern to the UK, and we joint commission as an essential step to rebuild confidence remain opposed to them. 445WH Government Policy on Iran9 DECEMBER 2020 Government Policy on Iran 446WH

We continue to make clear to the Iranians our concern we see at the moment, but ultimately it is in the gift of and opposition to their repeated, persistent violation of the leadership in Tehran to make that happen. I urge human rights. As has been mentioned by a number of them in the strongest terms to take the actions to do so. Members, I can assure the House that the safety and good treatment of all British dual nationals in detention 3.51 pm in Iran remains a top priority for the UK Government. John Howell: I thank all hon. and right hon. Members We will continue to lobby at all levels for the immediate for their contributions to what has been an excellent and permanent release of all British dual nationals in debate. It is quite reassuring to me that everyone who arbitrary detention, so that they can return home to the has stood up to speak has agreed with what I said. I safety of their country and the embrace of their loved take that not as a compliment to me, but as a united ones. effort to give to the Minister, whom I thank for his The Foreign Secretary recently summoned the Iranian response, which covered much of the ground. I think he ambassador to hand over a letter from E3 Foreign understands that the strength of feeling on this issue is Ministers, expressing our concern about the grave human clear and that Iran’s actions harm our interests as well rights violations in Iran, including the arbitrary detention as those of a number of our allies. of dual nationals. We are deeply concerned that Iran As the new Biden Administration take office, the UK has issued new charges against Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. has an important role in ensuring that it waits until Iran These are indefensible, unacceptable and unjustifiable. returns to compliance with the JCPOA before giving We have been consistently clear that she must not return any sanctions relief prematurely. As colleagues have to prison. The UK Government, from the Prime Minister mentioned, a comprehensive deal that addresses Iran’s downwards, remain committed to doing everything we ballistic missile programme, support for terrorism and can for her and the other British dual nationals held in human rights abuses is the only way forward. In the detention. meantime, I urge the Minister to look at Magnitsky We want to see a peaceful and prosperous Iran, that is sanctions for those who are abusing human rights in the famous for its art, culture and history, not for its area. Once again, I thank all Members for their destabilising influence in the region and the world. We contributions to this debate. want to see an Iran that does not pose a threat to the UK, or to our friends and allies. Jim Shannon: On a point of order, Mrs Miller. I would like to convey to you, and perhaps you can Christian Wakeford: Many colleagues mentioned the convey it to those responsible, that Westminster Hall need to proscribe the IRGC. Will my right hon. Friend has become a cold house for many people, not because commit to working across Government, and across people are not allowed in here, but because the heater parties, to make sure that that sensible, credible plan is over there, and I suspect others, is blowing cold air, and adopted moving forward? the heaters behind us do not work. I do not want to make a complaint, but really—I say this respectfully—there James Cleverly: I thank my hon. Friend for raising are ladies here. I say this because yesterday there were that point. I cannot give him clarity on that in today’s ladies coming into Westminster Hall and they took debate, but I recognise that those calls have come from their scarves and overcoats off, but after half an hour in every corner of the House and that there is cross-party here, their scarves and overcoats were back on and their support for that. Again, it will be noted, and I genuinely collars were turned up. Really, we need to do something. take his and other Members’ position on this seriously. Can I perhaps ask you, Mrs Miller, to please do that? Clearly, we want to see Iran abandon its intentions to Thank you. develop nuclear weapons, but we also want to see it act as a good neighbour and a responsible regional power. Mrs Maria Miller (in the Chair): I am sure that many We want to see it end arbitrary detention and improve hon. and right hon. Members will be very thankful to its domestic human rights record, and the United Kingdom the hon. Member for putting that on the record. I can Government will continue to engage with international assure him that his comments will be relayed back to partners and directly with the Government of Iran to the Chair of Ways and Means to see whether we can get bring that about. some action on that. We have to understand that our approach needs to be Question put and agreed to. based on a number of elements, including engagement Resolved, and incentives, but also pressure, delivered bilaterally, That this House has considered Government policy on Iran. through partners, and multilaterally.The future relationship between the UK and Iran, and between Iran and its 3.54 pm regional partners, could be infinitely better than what Sitting suspended. 447WH 9 DECEMBER 2020 Rural Scotland: Excess Delivery 448WH Charges Rural Scotland: Excess Delivery Charges retailers for purchases. That has led to a surge in online shopping and more parcel deliveries. As I have mentioned parcels and we are in December, it is only right to [CHRISTINA REES in the Chair] mention the outstanding work that our posties up and down the country are doing at this extremely busy time 4.5 pm of the year and, indeed, all year round. Sadly, unlike in every other year since I have been an MP, we cannot go Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con): I beg to move, and thank them in person in the run-up to the Christmas That this House has considered excess delivery charges in rural period, but I am sure the Minister and the whole House Scotland. agree that they do incredible work at this busy time of It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, the year. They have our greatest thanks for that. Ms Rees. The word “rural” can sometimes conjure up an image of a far-flung place, but this issue affects many It is not surprising that in the early months of the communities in Moray.Although it is a rural constituency, lockdown during the covid pandemic, when people had it is also made up of substantial towns, such as Elgin, more time on their hands and were at home rather than Forres, Lossie, Buckie and Keith. This is an issue that getting out and about, they were shopping more online. also affects the city of Inverness, the capital of the For people in Moray and other parts of Scotland, highlands, as well as many communities, towns, villages however, the ease of online shopping comes with a heavy and cities north of Perth. Although we are talking about price: the surcharge they have to pay. If someone has a rural delivery charges, they have a big impact on many postcode in Moray, the Highlands or parts of urban areas as well. Aberdeenshire, they face a familiar problem. They try to make a purchase, look for a product, browse and I want to start by giving a little background on this then when they put in the postcode or address, they are issue, which I have raised in the main Chamber and suddenly faced with an additional charge simply to have Westminster Hall on many occasions, including during it delivered. Now, hon. Members do not need to be Prime Minister’s questions. Indeed, almost three years experts in geography to know that Moray, the Highlands ago to the day, I led a similar debate in Westminster and Aberdeenshire are all part of mainland UK. They Hall. It was a 90-minute debate, and the room was full are part of the mainland, yet we are often charged as an of Scottish and Northern Irish MPs raising concerns on island community. Moray is attached to the rest of the behalf of their local constituents. Had today’s debate United Kingdom in the same way that Highlands and not been a 30-minute debate, we would have seen similar Aberdeenshire are, yet we are faced with charges because attendance by MPs across the north of Scotland and some companies do not believe we are part of mainland other parts of the country, whose constituents continue United Kingdom. to suffer as a result of excess charges for delivery. This is also something on which I got the Scottish A recent paper published by the Scottish Parliament Affairs Committee to have an inquiry. I was pleased Information Centre estimated that shoppers had paid that companies such as Amazon came along to give an extra £43.1 million for parcels to be delivered in evidence and commit to tackling any issues that were 2020, up from £40 million in 2019 and £38 million in reported to them about delivery charges being added 2018. That is not the cost of the purchases—that is after a sale had apparently been completed. Indeed, with simply the cost to have these parcels delivered to parts one sale that I reported, the seller ended up being brought of Scotland. That is the surcharge for my constituents to task and punished by Amazon for adding a surcharge and constituents across the north of Scotland. to delivery after a purchase had been made. I will mention The report found that the covid-19 lockdown led to a later the work I have been doing with the Advertising big increase in online shopping, which is not surprising. Standards Authority, which has done a lot of work to People had no choice in many cases but to shop online, tackle this problem and to take enforcement action given they were told to stay at home. Once again, the against companies and couriers who add excessive charges. worst-affected areas were Moray, Highlands and I would like to praise Citizens Advice Scotland, which Aberdeenshire. Moray constituents purchasing online has done a tremendous amount of detailed research paid an extra delivery charge that has mounted up to and work on this subject. The briefing that it provided £3 million. ahead of the debate sums up a lot of the issues that we Unfortunately this is nothing new; I have a long list face. Research by Citizens Advice Scotland has found of constituency cases of people who have tried to that consumers living in affected areas pay on average challenge these rip-off fees—I will go into more detail 30% to 50% more for delivery of goods bought online later—but many people feel like they are banging their than consumers in other parts of Great Britain. Sometimes head against a brick wall. When complaints are made to we think this is just about consumers sitting at home stores or online outlets, courier companies are often and making individual purchases from online retailers, blamed. Taking the courier companies to task can be but the problem also affects many small and medium-sized tricky. Often, they simply state that their policy is to enterprises in Scotland. The report goes on to say that charge more for deliveries to certain locations. That in one in four of the Scottish SMEs that were questioned itself should be open to challenge, and I hope that the about this said that they had ordered items online for Minister can look at what the Government can do with businesses and were asked to pay an additional charge, couriers and retailers to try and get some form of so it is affecting our businesses as well as individual balance in the charges that they are imposing. consumers. It is not all doom and gloom. We have made some Clearly, the covid pandemic has increased awareness progress in the time that I have been working on this of this issue. For weeks in the early stage of the pandemic, issue, particularly where companies advertise that they people across the country were asked to stay at home say they will deliver for free—no charge at all—or a flat and go out as little as possible, so many turned to online rate everywhere in the United Kingdom, only for a 449WH Rural Scotland: Excess Delivery 9 DECEMBER 2020 Rural Scotland: Excess Delivery 450WH Charges Charges surcharge to be added. Where it has been clearly defined sanctions. It is clear that a letter being sent to say that that they offer free delivery or a set charge across this should not happen again does not do any good. Let mainland United Kingdom, if that is not the case when us be clear. The industry should not have to wait for someone goes to make a purchase, I routinely take up Government intervention before doing what is right; it cases with the Advertising Standards Authority. should be able to come up with the solutions to avoid One recent case involved a constituent who was getting the extra charges. That applies to retailers as well as a package from a gin distiller in another part of Scotland. couriers. His home is in Spey Bay in Moray, 130 miles away from Any online retailer should be keen to keep customers the retailer, and he was told he did not qualify for free onside. They should not simply shrug their shoulders delivery, despite it being explained on their site. However, and say that the charges are set in stone when they if he had sent the package to his friend, for whom he clearly are not. If enough companies decide to do was buying the product, in Truro in Cornwall— 596 miles something about it, we could finally make some progress. away—it would be shipped free of charge. There is no Likewise, the courier firms could work together to rational way to explain that disparity. It simply cannot come up with a plan to reduce the burden on buyers to be right. pay unnecessary surcharges. That could take the shape I was recently passed an email exchange between a of a shared distribution centre in the highlands that customer and a business, and it transpired, as it often reduces the distance between the warehouse and the does, that the blame for the extra charges was laid at the delivery address, or a simple commitment to treat mainland door of the courier. Again, I raised it with the Advertising Scotland in the same way as mainland England and Standards Authority,which I am pleased to say responded Wales. I do not think we are asking for too much. quickly and has told me that an enforcement notice will As I referred to earlier, in the past three years more now be issued. Citizens Advice Scotland note that than £100 million in additional charges has been paid enforcement notices were issued to by shoppers in the north of Scotland—a huge sum of “almost 300 online retailers during 2018/19” money. At a time when our economy is struggling, and that work resulted in a “97% compliance rate.” So people are losing their jobs and seeing their working we are making some progress. hours cut, every little helps. That money could go back into the businesses rather than into paying excessive Sadly, it is not enough, because constituents and charges. Let us not allow this discriminatory practice to individuals are still suffering. People go around in circles continue. Let us stand up for all the people who are trying to claim money back for the extra charges. In one being ripped off in Moray and across parts of Scotland case, a constituent complained that he had been hit with on a daily basis. Let us say that enough is enough. Let an additional charge of £60 for delivery of a package us ask the industry—the retailers and the couriers—to that weighed less than a pound. In many other cases, get their house in order. If they will not do that, the people do not complain to their MP; they just grin and Government should take steps to address the inherent bear it, as they feel they have no choice. It is clearly not unfairness. fair to ask anyone to pay more for delivery of a parcel because they happen to live in the northern half of I held such a debate as this three years ago on mainland Scotland. It has gone on for far too long and 20 December 2017. I remember the date well because it needs to stop. was my wife’s birthday, so I now have 11 days to make sure she gets the right present for this year’s birthday. I Up to now, there have been efforts to give regulators will make sure I buy local in Moray to avoid any in this area more teeth. In 2018, the Committee of excessive delivery charges. By having this debate at this AdvertisingPractice,whichsetstherulesthattheAdvertising time of year once more, we can again impress on the Standards Authority enforces, made very clear that it Minister and any businesses or couriers watching that would act to ensure a level playing field across the the practice has gone on for far too long. We have United Kingdom. It said that companies selling goods suffered for too long in Moray and parts of the north of online had to abide by its guidance, and it specifically Scotland because of the disparity affecting people living ruled out misleading claims of UK-wide delivery if that in different parts of the country. We can end this is not what they offer. Any surcharges applying to parts practice and, with the Minister’s help and some of Scotland and Northern Ireland should be clear and encouragement from the Government, I am sure we can up front so that the buyer knows before he or she pays get these businesses to realise the error of their ways. It what the final cost will be. That is even meant to apply would be a cheerful festive message to send out that we where there is a headline claim of free UK delivery, for are once and for all going to deal with this issue. example, but the small print might say something like, “exemptions for north of Perth”. Even in those cases, a company would be found to be misleading customers. 4.18 pm The problem is that, two years on, it is still happening The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, and, as far as I am concerned, if a company advertises Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): It is a free delivery or a flat-rate delivery all over the UK, it pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Rees. should stick to that. Thank you for stepping in to enable my hon. Friend the Another example is from a constituent in Fochabers Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) to make his really who had found what he was looking for and had seen important case. I congratulate him on securing this “free UK delivery”, but when he put in his postcode, he debate. The issue continues to be important for his was hit with a £75 delivery charge. There are more cases constituents and for those of other Members in the like that. If the companies do not stick to their promises, similar debates that he has led over the years. He has considerable penalties should be applied. Any repeat been a dogged champion for his constituents in Moray offenders should be hit with an increasing severity of on this and other subjects. They should be proud to 451WH Rural Scotland: Excess Delivery 9 DECEMBER 2020 Rural Scotland: Excess Delivery 452WH Charges Charges [Paul Scully] Friend’s thanks to posties up and down this country, in every part of the UK, who have been working through have someone championing people who live in the the pandemic to make sure we remain connected even highlands and other parts of rural Scotland. when we are locked down. As my hon. Friend has said, Delivery charges are part of the underpinning of it is a shame that we cannot join them in the sorting trade within the UK, so I have a lot of sympathy with office to wish them a merry Christmas and thank them my hon. Friend’s concern that some consumers in parts for all their work as they enter this particularly busy of Scotland are charged differently from consumers in time, but this is a good platform to be able to echo his other parts of the UK. I also recognise that similar thanks and season’s greetings to them all. issues exist for consumers in Northern Ireland. Let me make this clear: it is up to businesses to I am pleased to be able to take part in today’s debate, respond to customers’ needs and determine the most and to outline the progress that has been made since the appropriate delivery options for their customers. There previous debate back in July 2019. Let me first of all are no rules to prevent the differential charging between remind colleagues of our general approach as a businesses for deliveries, and I do not believe, for example, Government. The Government’s aim in relation to post that imposing a price cap is necessarily a practical is to secure a sustainable, efficient and affordable universal answer. postal service. With regard to delivery charges specifically, The postal sector regulator, Ofcom, recently published it is crucial that retailers are up front about those new information on how this part of the market is charges, as my hon. Friend eloquently articulated: where operating as part of its annual post monitoring update. they deliver to, what they charge, and what premiums Ofcom collected information on the extent to which apply, if any. Consumers then know where they stand, parcel operators vary the price that they charge online and can make an informed decision before they purchase. retailers for bulk delivery of parcels to different parts of That is what the law requires. the UK. The long and the short of it is that some Our legislation is robust. The Consumer Protection operators do vary their prices, whereas others do not. from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and the Consumer The information gathered by Ofcom showed that Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional operators take different approaches to the pricing of Charges) Regulations 2013 set out that information parcel delivery services: two large business-to-consumer given by traders to consumers regarding delivery costs, operations, Royal Mail and Hermes, do not set different including any premiums, must be up front and transparent prices based on location. However,the geographical profile before a transaction is entered into. Any consumer who of deliveries can still play some role in determining the believes that these rules are being breached should uniform price that these operators negotiate with retailers, report it through the specifically set up deliverylaw.uk especially if volumes are skewed towards a particular website, so that incidents are recorded and appropriate part of the UK. enforcement action can be taken. A significant amount of work has been undertaken Douglas Ross: I again go back to the Citizens Advice by the Advertising Standards Authority—I am glad to Scotland briefing for today’s debate. I am looking forward hear about my hon. Friend’s work with the ASA on this to attending the annual general meeting in Moraytomorrow, issue—and by the Competition and Markets Authority where I am sure we shall discuss this issue. One of its to ensure businesses comply with that legislation. Where recommendations is that consideration should be given that compliance has not happened, both bodies have on to whether Ofcom requires further regulatory powers in the whole acted swiftly. The ASA has issued enforcement relation to the parcels market, following on from the notices to online retailers whose parcel surcharging publication of the recent data on this market. Is that practices have been reported, and has achieved a compliance something that the Minister would consider, and take rate of over 95%. The CMA has issued a number of up with Ofcom? advisory notices to the major retail platforms, and I take the point my hon. Friend makes about letters: Paul Scully: Obviously we work with Ofcom; it straddles just telling companies not to do it again goes part of the a number of different Departments. We will always look way, but clearly those companies need to actually change at issues with it, as we do with other regulators, to make their behaviour, rather than just getting a warning letter. sure it has the powers to do the job it needs to do. We need to see the results of that. The CMA has also As I was saying, there are a number of delivery published guidance to retailers who sell via those platforms, options that businesses can adopt. Some have minimal and continues to work through primary authorities to delivery charges, and others are more bespoke models. ensure improvement in these areas. A competitive market in delivery charges, which will On the legal compliance side, significant progress has ultimately help consumers, should put downward pressure been made, and our enforcement partners will continue on the charges applied by retailers and delivery operators. to monitor and take action where necessary. However, There are positive signs that things are changing in that the Government recognise that the delivery costs to regard. reach some parts of the UK can be higher, and strongly In August, for example, Argos announced that it encourage businesses to, as far as possible, provide would deliver large items to more than 98% of residents consumers with a range of affordable delivery options. on the main Scottish islands, bringing deliveries to To help achieve this, we have ensured that everyone, 41,000 more homes and another 56 islands, including including retailers, has access to an affordable postal Shetland, Orkney, the Inner Hebrides and the Western service for deliveries across the UK under the universal Isles. In 2019, Wayfair took the decision to scrap delivery service. Through the universal service obligation, Royal charges for orders over £40 anywhere in the UK and Mail delivers parcels of up to 2 kg six days a week at charge a standard rate of £4.99 for orders below that uniform rates throughout the UK. I echo my hon. threshold. Those are the types of commercial decisions 453WH Rural Scotland: Excess Delivery 9 DECEMBER 2020 454WH Charges that will set businesses apart from their competitors, Covid-19 Support Schemes: drive competition and lead to lower costs. Ineligible People Let me reassure my hon. Friend that the Government are not complacent. The consumer protection partnership [Relevant Documents: e-petition 310515, Coronavirus chaired by officials in my Department continues to Support Package for Directors / Shareholders of small work on the issues. That goes to the point about working Limited Co’s, e-petition 319899, One-off Grant To Be with companies to help foster the necessary competition. Paid To Anyone Who Has Not Benefited From A Covid-19 I am more than happy to continue to work with my Scheme, and e-petition 310471, Provide COVID19 income hon. Friend so that we can help, convene, push and support for the newly self-employed, without HMRC shape the conversation. Ultimately it is a free market; records.] we are both free marketeers. However, we can make sure that consumer voices are heard, so that if consumers in 4.31 pm his constituency have complaints, and if surcharges are Christina Rees (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members imposed after the event, the consumers’ voice will be that there have been some changes to normal practice in amplified and heard, through his work and through the order to support the new call list system and to ensure Government, to stop unfair practices. that social distancing can be respected. I remind Members Alongside the work of the consumer protection that they must arrive for the start of debates in Westminster partnership, and others, Ofcom will be undertaking a Hall. Members are expected to remain for the wind-ups, review of its future regulatory framework for post over provided there is space in the room. Members are also the next year. A call for inputs from stakeholders will be asked to respect the one-way system around the room. launched before the end of the financial year and a Please exit by the door on the left. statement on the future framework is expected to be Members should sanitise their microphones before issued by the end of the 2021-22 financial year. The they use them, using the cleaning materials that have review will consider issues affecting the broader postal been provided, and they should dispose of the materials sector, as people’s reliance on parcels continues to grow. they have used as they leave the room. Members in the I am unconvinced of the need for further legislation, latter stages of the call list should use the seats in the but my hon. Friend talked about whether there is a need Public Gallery and move on to the horseshoe when for new powers, and what more can be done to encourage seats become available. Members can only speak from the market, drive competition and make sure we enforce the horseshoe. the current regulations and legislation correctly. My priority is exactly that—that robust enforcement of the 4.32 pm law should continue to ensure that customers are not Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): I beg to move, surprised by delivery charges,and that competitive pressures That this House has considered support for people ineligible should continue to drive down delivery charges, as has for Government covid-19 support schemes. already happened. I congratulate my hon. Friend once more on securing the debate and on his further championing It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, of his constituents. Ms Rees. Question put and agreed to. “Feelings of betrayal, hopelessness, abandonment and not belonging have caused me immense anguish over the last 9 months”. Those are the words of Lisa from London, who spent 34 years as a pay-as-you-earn taxpayer and was newly self-employed in April 2019. I am incredibly grateful, as are the many thousands of people who have been in touch—both directly and indirectly—to share their stories with me, to have been granted this very important debate, which also addresses three petitions. I am aware that many Members were unable to make the crowded call list today. It is 261 days since the furlough scheme was announced and 258 days since the self-employment income support scheme was announced, yet those very welcome schemes had gaping holes in them. We know that some 3 million people—approximately one in 10 of the workforce—fell through those gaps. Often, they were ineligible for universal credit, so they were left without a penny of Government support over the past nine months. Their plight has been raised time and again in this place, and the largest all-party parliamentary group has been formed to champion their cause. Yet the Treasury has repeatedly refused to do anything to address this glaring injustice. Those who have been excluded span many different categories of workers, including, but not limited to, employees who were denied furlough or were ineligible for it, which includes new starters; the self-employed, including those newly self-employed; those over the £50,000 threshold; those who earn less than 50% of 455WH Covid-19 Support Schemes: 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Support Schemes: 456WH Ineligible People Ineligible People [Munira Wilson] “I am selling my house, cannot get a mortgage, selling my personal belongings just to put food on the table. Getting into so their income from self-employment; directors of limited much debt. Never been so scared in my life. I’m also a single companies who are paid annually or via dividends, or parent and it’s heart-breaking telling my daughter that Santa can’t afford much this year”. directors of such companies that are not yet in profit; PAYE freelancers; those on zero-hours contracts; and In terms of the wider economic impact, those businesses new mothers. These 3 million individuals are from all and entrepreneurs, who are natural risk-takers, are the walks of life, from beauticians to builders, teachers, driving wealth creators and the lifeblood of our economy.Retaining instructors, taxi drivers, lawyers, those working in our their skills and health, and stopping their businesses world-leading creative industries, and many, many more. going to the wall are critical to our post-covid economic recovery. It is incredibly short-sighted to cast them aside I will address up front some of the misrepresentations in this way. that exist, then touch on the impact of this injustice and, importantly, refer to some of the solutions that Moving on to solutions, many proposals have been have been proposed. To date, the responses that we have put forward by a number of groups, such as the Association had from the Government include, “It is too difficult of Independent Professionals and the Self-Employed, and complex to include these groups.” I am afraid that, the Treasury Committee, the Federation of Small nine months on, that just does not wash. I understand Businesses, the gaps in support all-party parliamentary that the schemes were set up at speed, but there has been group and the various representative groups for those ample time to work through and implement solutions. who have been excluded. Another response was that the schemes were targeted I have limited time today, but some of the solutions where help was most needed. It is clear from the thousands include using HMRC data to support claims for those of case studies received and the surveys conducted by with PAYE income history; widening the accepted evidence the House of Commons digital engagement team, the for demonstrating proof of employment; extending cut-off Organise group and ExcludedUK that that is simply dates; looking at the two specific schemes that have not true. There are heartbreaking stories of desperate been put forward for directors of limited companies; need, including the use of food banks and people not removing the 50% rule; removing bereavement payouts being able to switch the heating on this winter. and carers’ allowance from the calculation of PAYE income; and extending the criteria for discretionary There has, at times, been a suggestion that some of business grants. Many of those solutions just require the excluded are highly paid and dodging tax in some imagination and will. Plenty of experts stand by to help way, especially those paid via dividends. My constituent, make them implementable. Fraser Wilkin, who runs a travel company in Twickenham, pays himself by dividends because of the huge fluctuation I want to conclude by sharing from a children’sbook sent in annual income due to events outside his control, such to me by Kev Payne, who was a teacher and became an as the coronavirus. If he had drawn a regular salary illustrator in 2018. He is ineligible for support because through the year, he would have been unable to fulfil his of the 50% rule. He wrote a story to try to explain how statutory and contractual obligations to his clients, in he feels. In it, the mice are the taxpaying workers and the terms of prompt refunds when their holidays were bear is the Government. A storm hits and the bear cancelled due to the pandemic. provides food and shelter for all the animals, but the mice are left out and told that there is no space for them: Universal credit is cited as the fall-back. A survey of “‘But I gave you my food’, said Mouse. ‘You said you would more than 3,000 individuals found that almost three help me.’ quarters were unable to access universal credit. Let us ‘I cannot help you now,’ said Bear. ‘I will see you when the face it: we all know that universal credit is not meaningful storm is over.’ support. Otherwise, the Government would not have ‘But…’ began Mouse. Bear glared and growled at Mouse. It felttheneedtocreatethefurloughschemeortheself-employed turned its vast back against her.” income support scheme. My plea to the Minister is to listen to how these We know that the mental health impacts on many of hard-working, tax-paying people are feeling and to look those excluded from support have been stark. There have at the long-term impact of his policy. The Chancellor already been eight reported suicides, and one respondent does not have to be the big, bad bear; he can be Santa to the House of Commons digital engagement team Claus this Christmas. said that she almost took her life several times, and one week spent every day in contact with the Samaritans. Christina Rees (in the Chair): I will start the winding-up The Centre for Mental Health has said that covid-related speeches at 5.10 pm. There are lots of Members who unemployment has caused an additional almost want to speak, so I am afraid we will have to have a time 30,000 people to request services for depression. Those limit of two minutes. mental health impacts spread well beyond the 3 million individuals to their families and support networks. Many 4.40 pm report having to move back in with elderly parents and Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con): I pay tribute to the rely on their pensions. Marriages and relationships have hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) for been strained or ended. Parents of young children talk securing this important debate. I am delighted to co-chair about the stress it is putting on their children. An the gaps in support all-party parliamentary group. We anonymous respondent from the north-west said: are all here today bringing the case to this House. “my mental health has plummeted and my family are anxious Blue Collar Conservatism, of which I am a founder too, so much so my teenage daughter is getting counselling for her member, set up the campaign asking for supermarkets anxiety”. to return their covid business exemption, specifically Personal debt is rising. Rachel from the south-east with the purpose that that money would be redirected says: to those who have had no support during this period. 457WH Covid-19 Support Schemes: 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Support Schemes: 458WH Ineligible People Ineligible People We met with Tesco, Asda, the British Retail Consortium Dan Jarvis, the Mayor of Sheffield, explained that an and others. They have done the right thing, stepped up estimated 68,000 people are excluded from support in to the plate and committed to returning that money. I Yorkshire. At 13.1%, Yorkshire has the highest proportion pay tribute to those who have done so. of new starters in the UK, but because of a fluke My message to the Minister is that that campaign of timing they have been thrown into poverty and specifically aimed to redirect that money to those who homelessness, joining the 1 million freelancers now in have not had any money. Having spoken to those firms, debt, according to IPSE. Entrepreneurs, business people, that was the basis on which they have handed the creatives and strivers who have worked with their employers money forward. I hope the Minister will act in the same and been paid in any way the employer deems more faith and spirit as those supermarkets that handed over convenient are now paying a heavy price for that flexibility. that money and support for those people. I will share a couple of stories. Nicola is 46 and a I want to mention two big supermarkets that have single mum of two girls in West Yorkshire. She is on a not yet committed to give that money forward: Iceland zero-hours contract with a publicly funded charity, and the Co-op. I ask the shadow Minister to tell the working in the supported living sector and paid the shadow Chancellor, who is a Labour and Co-operative minimum wage. She asked to be furloughed but was Member, to speak to her friends to ensure that the told that she could not because her job was publicly Co-op pays that money back, unless it thinks it is more funded, and was then told that there was enough work. in need than others. We think it should do the right Her application for unemployment benefits was refused thing, join in with the other supermarkets and hand as she was still under contract and had received a wage. that money back. Nicola was not just excluded from support; she was refused support and had to live on child benefit, going 4.42 pm deep into arrears. Sadly, as Steve Rotheram said yesterday, “whatever it Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): I takes” has turned into “whatever we will give you”. think we should start by thanking the Government for Andy Burnham said that it is up to politicians to stand what they have done to support people through a very up for people against the machine of Government and difficult time.The Government have spent some £210 billion to mitigate risk. This is now an opportunity for the in dealing with the pandemic. That is an unprecedented Government to listen to the solutions that they have fiscal response. We should put on record our thanks for heard this afternoon and put them in place to support the scale of that intervention towards people who are in the millions who are excluded and who face the hardest more regular employment. and harshest of winters. The scale of that generosity brings into question its allocation, when people in so many groups have not 4.46 pm received the same scale of Government funding as Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): I people in PAYE employment. It is not just about individuals. want to make a few brief remarks. I congratulate the I have spoken about the events industry before and the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) on exhibition industry. I spoke with the British Events securing the debate. Industry Coalition earlier this week. In the weddings I recognise the massive effort made this year to provide industry, I think of Eggington House in my constituency. broad support right across the economy. In its recent In terms of individuals, we are talking about people assessment of the UK’s economic response, the who work with a construction industry scheme card, International Monetary Fund praised our Government’s directors who pay themselves through dividends and actions as the newly self-employed. I had a letter today from a “one of the best examples of coordinated action globally”, driving instructor. He only set up in October 2018. That saying that they had was not his fault. He has done everything he has been “helped mitigate the damage, holding down unemployment and asked and he pays what he should, but he is left out. insolvencies.” This affects beauticians, freelance musicians and so many more. I take my hat off to the Chancellor. His policies mean that many more jobs will be saved and our economy will The Office for Budget Responsibility, in its July 2019 experience a faster bounce back. fiscal risks report, put the tax reduction for someone on I also have a lot of sympathy, however, for specific £70,000 being paid through dividends at 11.6 percentage businesses and sectors in our economy that have missed points. That is slightly less tax, but those people are out, often through no fault of their own. For some, the getting very much less than 11.6 percentage points types of support were not relevant or they had unfortunate lower than what people are getting through the furlough timing issues. This includes a number of my constituents, scheme. I ask the Treasury to look again—it has clever and I want to give just three examples. people—and to please remember these 2.9 million people who have been left out so far. First, Jo from Brackley runs a building maintenance company. She has received only £550 a month since 4.44 pm lockdown and has lost thousands of pounds’ worth of work. Secondly,Shirley runs a small, independent clothing Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op): It is a business. She has received no income for herself or her pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Rees. business and is having now to sell all her stock at a loss Yesterday I chaired a meeting of the gaps in support as well as make her staff redundant. Thirdly, Mark and all-party parliamentary group, during which we heard Louise are, along with so many other wedding and from Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Steve Rotheram event organisers, unable to operate at all. They have about how the metro Mayors are working to support experienced almost 100% cancelled bookings and a businesses in their areas to plug the gaps left by Government. total collapse in income. 459WH Covid-19 Support Schemes: 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Support Schemes: 460WH Ineligible People Ineligible People [Andrea Leadsom] On Small Business Saturday at the weekend, I visited businesses in Frome and met Liz Huband, the owner of I think that most people in the country would agree Badger House Leather in the town’s fantastic Black that this Government have gone further than any other Swan arts centre. Liz started her business two years ago, Government to protect livelihoods as well as lives. I agree self-funding all of it. Her business was growing, but with other hon. Members, however, that now is the time when the pandemic hit, she had to stop trading. In to consider those left behind and see what we can do to order to keep funding it, she worked half time supporting help them survive into 2021. If we do that, they can social work education. Because of that, she became start to rebuild their businesses and to create new jobs, ineligible for the self-employed income support scheme. as they have done so successfully in the past. The support system has entirely let her down; it has forgotten her. I have other examples, as I am sure we all have, but in two minutes I do not have the time to 4.48 pm mention them. Some 3 million people are unable to Stephen Morgan (Portsmouth South) (Lab): It is pleasure reach meaningful support, which is a catastrophe for so to see you in the Chair, Ms Rees, and I am grateful to many lives and livelihoods. the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) for With vaccinations starting this week, there is an end securing this debate. in sight to the pandemic, but in rebuilding our economy, I have repeatedly called on the Government to listen we will need entrepreneurs such as Liz to drive the recovery. to the concerns of people who were not covered by the I urge the Minister to look again urgently at ensuring self-employment income support and job retention schemes. that support is allocated fairly and proportionately to There has still been nothing beyond social security for all those who have felt, until now, entirely left behind those who have been excluded from support from the and forgotten. start, and many self-employed people remain cut out 4.52 pm from social security support for measly reasons. Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): It is My postbag has been full of real-world examples always a pleasure, Ms Rees. Like others, I am angered caused by the Government’s callous neglect in recent by the Government’s blinkered obstinacy in denying the months—from photographers to driving instructors, existence of 3 million people—people such as my constituent events organisers and wedding planners. My constituent Chris Anderson, a self-employed filmmaker for 37 years, Simone is a prime example of those who have been who has been denied support and is surviving on limited repeatedly allowed to fall through the net. She started benefits and dwindling savings. John Powell is from a out as a self-employed driving instructor very recently, family of showmen based in Ocean Beach Pleasure so she does not qualify for the support scheme. She also Park, who have been in the business since 1847 and are cannot receive universal credit, as her partner is employed. now being forced to sell some of their fairground equipment Although she was able to start working again between just to get by. Their business survived two world wars, the first and second lockdown, the latest restrictions but I am fearful that they will not survive this Tory mean that she finds herself unable to earn and without Government. the ability to access support. In March, my constituent Neil Jelly lost 80% of his The Chancellor said he would do “whatever it takes” business revenue overnight. He has had to turn to to support people and businesses through the economic universal credit and is seeking advice on how to close impact of the pandemic, but millions across the country, down his business. He said to me that this year has been including many in my constituency, know that he has a mental and emotional struggle—a year ending with not delivered on that promise. That has left those affected him trying to explain to his young children that their in Portsmouth feeling like “collateral damage”, as my dad failed in his business and Christmas will be different constituent described it, abandoned by the Government this time. Of course, Neil has not failed. He has been in the face of unprecedented uncertainty. That is also failed by an uncaring Government. economic illiteracy. Universal credit is not the answer; not everyone is We are all asking the same question: when will the eligible. Every single time I hear a Minister speak of Government finally support my constituents and those how wonderful it is, I am more convinced that they have across the country who have been allowed to slip through literally never met anyone who claims universal credit. the safety net for far too long? Being on universal credit is a miserable and soul-destroying experience. It is no coincidence that the rise in UC claims 4.50 pm and the refusal of claims is matched by empty food bank shelves up and down the country. David Warburton (Somerton and Frome) (Con): It is Poverty and debt affect individuals, and local and a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Rees, national economics. It makes no sense at all to continue and I congratulate the hon. Member for Twickenham denying people support. The all-party parliamentary (Munira Wilson) on calling this important debate. We group and the Treasury Committee have provided solutions. must applaud the vast scale of financial support provided I sincerely hope that the Minister will not revert to his to many millions since March. It is unprecedented and script today and close his ears, as the rest of Government rivals that of any western country, but there have been have, to this appalling scandal. exclusions that have caused distress and suffering for many—the self-employed, freelancers, zero-hours workers 4.54 pm and entrepreneurs who have taken huge risks to start Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): Since the start new businesses and create jobs and opportunities. Those of the pandemic, the Treasury has implemented a suite people have worked hard, but when they were most in of support measures that have been nothing short of need of support, they found themselves left behind. extraordinary.For most people and most small businesses, 461WH Covid-19 Support Schemes: 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Support Schemes: 462WH Ineligible People Ineligible People money was received in a timely manner, and proved vital them. I know he is a decent guy. Will he commit today to in protecting businesses and the employees they support. looking at those proposals, including those from Prospect However, a large number unfortunately fell through the and the Broadcasting, Entertainment, Cinematograph cracks. Earlier in the year, the Financial Secretary to and Theatre Union? I am sure he will have received their the Treasury accepted that certain individuals were paper, which proposes a number of solutions for those unintentionally excluded from the Government’s financial people. support measures, but highlighted the difficulties of The constituents who are coming to us are hard-working, assessing those on a case-by-case basis. decent people. Some of them are looking at selling their We are nine months on from March, and a growing houses and moving back in with their parents, or selling number of individuals have not received support throughout their possessions. They are really struggling, and the the pandemic, despite paying their taxes. One example Government appear not to want to listen, so I ask in my constituency is testament to that. Graham Whitehead, Minister today to please listen. a project manager in the arts and culture sector, left his full-time employment in January 2019 and decided 4.58 pm to become self-employed. As he became self-employed in January, he did not have the required tax returns over Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): I a three-year period and did not meet the threshold of thank the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) 50% self-employed income for the tax year. As of 10 July for securing the debate. 2020—127 days after the industry was closed—he had It is true that where the Government schemes have received a total of only £6.27 in universal credit from worked, they have worked well. It is also true that the state. Government schemes are not an entitlement, but a use There are many cases across the country like Graham’s— of very scarce taxpayers’ money. If we are honest with cases of individuals who have bravely taken a leap, ourselves, many of those 3 million people are probably spurred on by their entrepreneurial desire to forge their not high on the list of those who are in greatest need, own path. Those excluded are the risk-takers who this because they earn a lot of money, or because a large Conservative Government should be encouraging. That proportion of their income comes from other areas. is deeply unfair. They feel let down by the absence of Notwithstanding, some specific areas need focus. support. It is depressing that too often the Treasury looks like Over the past few weeks, support provided by Her a wholly owned subsidiary of Her Majesty’s Revenue Majesty’s Government has been returned to the Treasury and Customs, rather than having a broader view of the from Tesco, Sainsbury’s and other large supermarkets. economy as a whole. I want to focus on company These funds should be repurposed and directed towards directors, because that group, as other hon. Members those who have yet to receive adequate support. Her have said, has the grit and determination that will be so Majesty’s Government have taken many truly crucial to our recovery. unprecedented steps to protect lives and livelihoods Becoming a company director is often a moment of throughout the pandemic. However,we should endeavour pride. It says, “I’m going to do something. I am going to to ensure that no one is left behind. make something happen.” It is a tangible moment that defines why someone is going to contribute to society. As the hon. Member for Twickenham has said, as we 4.56 pm emerge from the recession, these are the risk-takers Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): We are whom the Government need to support. here yet again to make a plea for our constituents in My hon. Friend the Minister needs to find a standard Greater Manchester,130,000 of whom have fallen through reporting event. He needs to ensure that people can the gaps—people like three of my constituents. There is demonstrate a negative impact on their business and Luana, who runs a small interior design company; can confirm they have not received any benefit from Shan, who is a sound engineer—we make the best Government under any existing schemes. Within those sound engineers in the world, and Shan tells me he is three parameters, it should be within the wit of man or really worried that there will not be a live music industry woman—certainly within the wit of the Treasury—to to come back to; and Zena, who runs festivals. They find something, perhaps along the lines of the forgivable were all recommended to pay themselves through dividends loan suggestion of Professor Francis Green of Edinburgh because they have irregular income. They are not people University, or the directors income support scheme who invested in companies to make a profit. This is supported by others. their income and their wages, and they are really struggling. This is a group on whom we will rely. I urge the Can the Minister look at the proposal from the Federation Minister to ensure we do all we can to see if there are of Small Businesses for something like a director support ways to support them with the scarce taxpayers’ funds scheme? The evidence can be based on trading profits. available. If we do not support such directors, their businesses will fail, and the people who work for them and with them will fail as well. 5 pm There are solutions out there for the various types of Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): It is a people who have fallen through the gaps, including the pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Rees. I newlyself-employed,the50%limitpeople,theself-employed thank my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham with a profit cap limit and pay-as-you-earn freelancers. (Munira Wilson) for securing this important debate. There are potential solutions if the Government will Covid-19 does not discriminate, but for the 3 million just look at them. Weare tired of making these arguments, people who find themselves with no support, it must and I am sure the Minister must be tired of hearing sometimes seem like the Government do. I—and I am 463WH Covid-19 Support Schemes: 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Support Schemes: 464WH Ineligible People Ineligible People [Christine Jardine] with self-employment. However, because less than half her income comes from that, she is not eligible for the sure they—acknowledge that many millions of people self-employment income support scheme. She says she have been helped by successful Government schemes, needs to augment her pension, but she is really struggling but that is not enough. It is no consolation to them that to get by. someone else has been helped by the Government. It There are tales of real hardship where mortgage does not help them feed their children. One of the holidays have come to an end and loan repayments are things I find most surprising is that many of the people having to be made again. These people are really struggling. suffering are the very people whom successive Conservative I know that my neighbour the Minister, who will be Governments have rightly described as the backbone of familiar with many of the places I mentioned, will do our economy: the self-employed, the innovators and his best to listen and respond, but the argument every those in the creative sector. And no, it is not easy for Member has made is that people need help now.Christmas ballet dancers to retrain in IT. is coming; please give them some hope. I was contacted recently by a woman—a make-up artist—who had used her husband’s pension to set up a 5.4 pm small business to provide for her and her two children, but she cannot work and she is getting no support. I get Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con): I thank the hon. calls every week from constituents who built up successful Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson), and declare businesses that they are now losing through no fault of my interest as a director of two limited companies. As I their own because they are following Government rules, have said countless times before in the Chamber, and in and the Government are not helping them. They are Westminster Hall, the Government’s economic response distraught; they are at their wits’ end. to the pandemic has been unprecedented. As we promoted Small Business Saturday over the weekend, I was pleased I know what it is like to build a career, and I am sure to note that almost 1,500 businesses in my constituency many on the Government Benches know—or think they have benefited from bounce back loans, and 3,500 people know—what it is like to have it ripped away for following have kept their jobs because of the furlough scheme. As the Government’s rules. In many cases, these are people I made clear three weeks ago, it is time for the Government who voted for the Government. Yes, many of them are to provide support for directors of limited companies. the people we will depend on to rebuild our economy, but to do that, they will have to depend on the help they Being a limited company has some small benefits get now. We want our west-end theatres to be alive again with regard to national insurance payments, although and our TV industry to thrive, and in my city, we want much of that is negated by the payment of corporation our world-famous festival to regrow, but they all need tax. The main reason for being a limited company is, as help now. Covid-19 might not discriminate, but we is indicated by the name, to limit one’s liability as an know how to be fair; this Government could do so. individual. To be penalised because one is a director and takes remuneration through a dividend seems harsh. A week is a long time in politics; three weeks, it 5.2 pm seems, is a lifetime. On 18 November I stood in the Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) Chamber along with many of my colleagues and called (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, for large supermarkets to return the rate relief they had Ms Rees. I extend my congratulations to the hon. received from the Government, as they had not been hit Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson). Two minutes financially by covid. I am pleased to say that since then does not give hon. Members much time to comment on £1.8 billion has been issued back. the issues raised with them, but I thank the Chancellor, With this in mind, I call on the Minister to do three who took the time to speak to me last week specifically things: ensure that those businesses and sectors that on the newly self-employed, who we know—it has been were not in financial trouble return the moneys gained mentioned in the debate—have been among the hardest-hit through rate relief; give businesses the option to tick an groups. opt-out box to ensure they do not receive unneeded I pay tribute to the Chilbolton and Wherwell small support in the first place; and, most importantly, listen business group, which set up as a self-help group for to the concerns and recognise the plight of the self-employed many small businesses in those villages to find ways to directors. We are receiving funds back from supermarkets support one another. It has come to me with tales of and other businesses; now is the time to use this money company directors who are not eligible for support, of wisely to allow businesses to stay afloat as we begin to microbusinesses set up from home that do not pay reach the light at the end of the tunnel. business rates and therefore are not eligible for those grants, and of very new businesses—the newly self- Christina Rees (in the Chair): I thank hon. Members employed. I reiterate the pleas for help for them. for adhering to the time limit; it is much appreciated. I will mention three cases from my constituency. First, 5.6 pm Jo, from the events industry, tells me that she and her husband have been forced to sleep in friends’ spare rooms Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): I am pleased to be so that they can Airbnb their home. Secondly, there is able to sum up in this debate for the Scottish National the lady trying to live on child benefit because her party. I commend the hon. Member for Twickenham husband earned more than £50,000 last year but nothing (Munira Wilson) on securing the debate, and everyone this year, giving them an income of just £25,000 a year who has contributed. As others have said, we could over two years. Thirdly, I hesitate to use the word have filled this Chamber four or five times over with “pensioner”, but my constituent Susan is drawing a hon. Members who would have liked to take part, but small pension of £11,000 a year and supplementing it realised there would not be space. I cannot be the only 465WH Covid-19 Support Schemes: 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Support Schemes: 466WH Ineligible People Ineligible People person who has noticed that today, again, nobody has plight of these 3 million people and their families, surely defended the Government’s failure to support these they care about the damage to the economy if these 3 million people. people disappear from wealth creating in the future. Let I also commend the campaign groups that are helping us not forget that this time last year all those people to make sure that this scandal will not go away—not this were working in their businesses, creating wealth and year, not next year, not any year—until it is addressed. I providing valued services to the local communities and am sorry there is not time to mention by name all my beyond. Some were giving jobs to other people in the constituents who have contacted me and asked for their community. All were paying taxes into Government plight to be publicised, let alone the people from outside coffers. That is what they were doing this time last year. my constituency who have been in touch over the past few This time next year, or maybe even earlier, every one of days specifically because I was going to speak in this debate. them wants to be doing exactly the same—to be part of a post-covid shared economic recovery. To do that, they The first and most important point that must be need support this time, this year. made—it is one that the Government sometimes try to fudge—is that this is a deliberate policy decision. It is I say to the Minister,even if the Government’sapproach not that the Government could not have helped these to these people is as callous as it sometimes appears, people by now, had they wanted to; it is that, frankly, surely it is in our shared interest to help all those who they do not seem to care enough to try. It has to be the want to be in business after covid to get into business or UK Government who address the problem. None of to stay in business. It is not about charity; it is simply the devolved Administrations has borrowing powers about parity. that would come anything close to the amount the UK Government are borrowing to fund their covid support package.By 2025, UK Government debt will be somewhere 5.11 pm in the region of £2 trillion to £2.5 trillion. The devolved Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) Administrations are not allowed to borrow money to (Lab): It is a pleasure to see you in the chair, Ms Rees. I this extent; if they were, I am sure that at least one, and appreciate that we are slightly pushed for time. I am possibly all three, would. grateful to the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira To the many harrowing stories we have heard today Wilson) for securing such an important debate on a and in other debates, I can add that of my constituent timely issue. For nine long months now, many workers Gemma, who moved from being employed to being have had no support whatsoever from the Government self-employed early in 2019. For 2018-19, her PAYE due to glaring gaps in the Government’s various schemes income was higher than her self-employment income, and wider provisions—inadequacies that the Opposition and she did not qualify for support. She has now have highlighted time and again. Many of these problems submitted her tax return for 2019-20, the period ending could be fixed with political will, but the Government shortly before lockdown was imposed. Deliberate policy so far have chosen to do nothing. Those problems have from the Government is that they ignore her accurate festered and worsened, and today they are endangering tax return for 2019-20 as evidence of what she was our economic recovery. earning—what she would have earned this year. However, I pay tribute to the Members we have heard from, HMRC is happy to use the same tax return as evidence whose contributions showed the impact that being shut that she now owes them £9,000. out of support has had on many of their constituents There was good reason why 2018-19 tax returns were right across the United Kingdom, particularly my hon. used as a basis for the first scheme when it was announced Friends the Members for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck), last year, but now that the Government again have a for Batley and Spen (Tracy Brabin), for Portsmouth scheme open for self-employed support applications, South (Stephen Morgan) and for Manchester,Withington there is no excuse whatsoever to continue to exclude (Jeff Smith), who made such passionate cases on their people simply because their 2018-19 tax return significantly constituents’ behalf. Like many Members, I have also understated their self-employment earnings. heard from constituents who find themselves in this position. One constituent, newly self-employed after There are some cases, such as that of Joanna in my starting his own business, told me: constituency,whereallegedemployedearningsweresignificantly overstated. Joanna still runs a small business. Her family “I am from a working class background. I’ve worked and paid ran another business that failed because a serious accident taxes since leaving school, funded my own retraining. I’ve not claimed any benefits at all during this time. I’ve worked hard to befell a close family member who was involved in the earn everything that I have achieved. I admit to feeling disappointed business. To cope with that, they cashed in their pensions and let down, that due to a quirk of timing and dates, I won’t be at exactly the wrong time in 2018-19. This meant that afforded the same level of Government support.” their pensions were counted towards her earned income. I have also heard from many of the unions representing Had it been a few months earlier or later, it would not working people in this country: Community, Equity, have counted, and Joanna would qualify for covid self- the Musicians’ Union, the Writers’ Guild, Prospect and employment support. Now, they get nothing. Just like the GMB about how many of their members are in Gemma, Joanna’s tax return for 2019-20 will give a similar situations. I have also heard from the Federation much more accurate picture of her earnings but it will of Small Businesses. Across professions, the same issues be ignored by the Government. Again, of course, HMRC come up time and again: the exclusion of the newly will quite happily use it as a basis for the tax she is due to self-employed, the 50% threshold, and people who are pay them. not eligible for universal credit despite a huge drop in It would be easy just to say that this is happening income. We also know that, despite some recent welcome because the Government do not care, but even if it was changes, there is ongoing discrimination against women true that they genuinely could not care less about the who have taken maternity leave. 467WH Covid-19 Support Schemes: 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Support Schemes: 468WH Ineligible People Ineligible People [Bridget Phillipson] yesterday for the debate. I have looked at that carefully and shall take back the three-stage approach, and we I have said before, and will say again, that the Opposition will continue to see if we can move forward. I recognise accept that it was difficult to get everything right when that there is a sensitivity about Ministers standing up the Government set up these income support schemes and listing all the measures that have been put in place back in March—but we are months into this pandemic so far, so I will go through some of that only briefly, but now. We know where the gaps are. We have pointed I will then move on to the context and rationale behind them out repeatedly and Members have made the case some of our decisions, and address some of the points here today. I ask the Minister, again, what is being done that have been raised. to sort out these issues? No doubt he will list the Clearly, the pandemic has profoundly affected the schemes the Government have already made available, lives of countless people. As a Government, we have a but surely he must understand that this will be cold moral obligation to protect jobs, livelihoods and our comfort for those still unable to access support. Does he country’s economic capacity, a point that has been have anything new to say today? made and acknowledged by many Members during the The Government’s failure to address these issues is debate. We have spent £280 billion on what has been also storing up problems down the line. There are many one of the most comprehensive responses, including the self-employed people who have put money aside into job retention scheme, which protected 9.6 million jobs; savings accounts to pay for end-of-year tax bills. In the self-employment income support scheme, which many cases, these savings trigger an end to their universal provided grants to 2.7 million people; affordable loans credit eligibility or they can only claim at a reduced rate. for businesses, which we have adapted over time; extra This means that not only are they going without support help through the welfare system; bespoke interventions for longer, but that they will face even greater financial for different industries, such as the £1.57 billion for the difficulties when required to pay their end-of-year tax creative industries; as well as other support, such as bill. As we have heard today, Government inaction risks income tax time-to-pay arrangements, payments to those the very economic recovery we all desperately need and asked to self-isolate and grants for businesses required want. to close. Entrepreneurship is the backbone of our economy. A We have striven, as a Government, to provide support dynamic economy needs people who are willing to take for as many individuals and businesses as we can, as risks, become self-employed and start their own businesses. rapidly as possible. That has meant taking some difficult After all, after the 2008 financial crash, it was SMEs that decisions, however. I will set out the rationale for some spearheaded economic recovery and gave people hope and of those decisions, particularly in relation to the self- work. Now, however, when so many self-employed people employed, before moving on to how we have adapted are in need, the Government are not there to help. our support schemes so far. Self-employed people have seen how the Government Togive some context, when we designed those schemes, have treated them, and I worry that they will be wary of we had to keep some guiding principles in mind. First, taking steps that could help to drive our recovery. As we the help must be targeted at those most in need. To have heard today, many people who are already self- achieve that, we obviously had to set clear rules. That is employed are considering giving up on their careers and why we have said that those eligible to claim from the their businesses. That is of particular concern among self-employment income support scheme must have made women, those from low-income backgrounds, and black, profits of no more than £50,000 from self-employed Asian and minority ethnic communities. activity. I recognise that for those on the upper side of We should do everything we can to ensure that an the £50,000 cut-off, that must feel unfair, but we did economic recovery benefits everyone in our country, have to draw a line somewhere, and wherever we had and we should give the self-employed the confidence to drawn it, we would have had the same challenge. keep going, not leave them to sink or swim. If we do According to HMRC data, those in that category had not, we will face a much slower and less inclusive an average income of between £100,000 and £200,000. recovery. That is in the Minister’s hands. It is not too We have also said that support from that scheme must late to listen; it is not too late to act. go to people whose main income is from their self-employed trade. That is why we also said that to claim, workers Christina Rees (in the Chair): Would the Minister should make at least half of their income from self- mind leaving a few minutes at the end for the summing employed activity. HMRC analysis shows that typically up? Thank you. for those who make less than 50% of their income from self-employed sources, their profits are on average between £1,800 and £3,500 per year. That strongly suggests that 5.16 pm self-employment is not their primary income source. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): I now come to the second principle that we have used, It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, which is the need to balance the Government’s duty to Ms Rees. I congratulate the hon. Member for Twickenham support individuals with our responsibility to protect (Munira Wilson) on securing the debate, and I thank taxpayers. Colleagues will be aware of the wide concern the 14 Back-Bench Members for their contributions—I about fraud that continues to be, rightly, something that listened very carefully to each—which spoke powerfully is raised in Select Committees and by those commentating to the many cases of hardship that I recognise exist on what we have done. To verify claims through the throughout the country. self-employment income support scheme, we needed to I acknowledge the article written by the hon. Member use data from an individual’s tax returns, and that for Twickenham for The House magazine today, and the means using returns from the year 2018-19. That has briefing by ExcludedUK, which was made available meant that people who became self-employed in 2019-20 469WH Covid-19 Support Schemes: 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Support Schemes: 470WH Ineligible People Ineligible People have been unable to access the scheme, because HMRC I would like to add that people who are ineligible for does not yet hold complete tax return data to check one scheme may still be able to get support from one of their details. the many other sources that I mentioned earlier, and Weare listening closely to individuals who pay themselves that was not an exhaustive list. through dividends, but that presents another challenge, I recognise that many people in the groups that we which is that there is no practicable way of distinguishing have talked about today fully intend to continue in their between dividends derived from an individual’s own current jobs. However, we are investing to help those company and those from other sources. who decide to seek new opportunities. My right hon. I know that the past months have been very difficult Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer recently announced for many people in the groups that I have mentioned, a £2.9 billion restart programme, which will provide but I want to stress that we have not taken a dogmatic intensive and tailored support to help people to find opposition position to any particular group and we work. continue— I listened to the range of contributions from constituents across the country. It is very, very challenging for us to Peter Grant: Will the Minister give way? provide support for every single group that is struggling at this time, but I reiterate our willingness to continue to John Glen: I will be very happy to take just one work with groups, including IPSE, the relevant APPG, intervention. the FSB and others, that bring forward proposals. My right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury Peter Grant: I am grateful to the Minister for letting is engaged in many of those conversations. As we move me intervene. It is patent nonsense to suggest that we through into the new year, we will continue to look at cannot tell the difference between shareholders who are the new schemes. directors of a small company and shareholders who are Our overriding goal has been to provide as much anonymous investors in a big company that they know support as we can to people and businesses, and as nothing about. Companies House holds all those records. rapidly as possible. We acknowledge that we have not Why, nine months later, have HMRC and the Treasury been able to help everyone in the way that we would made no attempt to do a data-matching exercise between ideally want to, but that has not been a wilful disregard what HMRC holds and what Companies House holds? for their situation; it is based on the challenges of verifying. It is not attributing any blame to them either. John Glen: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his We have succeeded in supporting millions of people intervention. Of course, one of the challenges that we and businesses through this intensely difficult time, and had to come to terms with was the need to deliver a we will continue to do our very best until we have scheme as quickly as possible, and to as many people as beaten coronavirus. possible,within the context of a finite number of individuals who could verify that data. Short of introducing a 5.25 pm scheme whereby people would need to manually go through and verify those different data sources— Munira Wilson: I thank all right hon. and hon. Members who contributed so powerfully to the debate. We have Peter Grant indicated dissent. heard so many stories and about so many sectors, many of which, such as the live events industry and the John Glen: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but weddings industry, will be among the last to return that, practically, was the challenge that we, working because of the nature of coronavirus. with officials, had to overcome. We had to make a I gently say to the hon. Member for North East judgment as to how to reconcile those two realities. Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) that, yes, undoubtedly I want to reiterate that we are not adopting dogmatic some of the 3 million are high earners, but the stories opposition to any particular group, or contribution or we have heard today, and a lot of the surveys, show that idea that could move this forward. We need to protect a many of those people are struggling to get by. Believe the taxpayer,but that has not overridden our determination me, I know some of the freelancers who work in the to provide support and we will continue to think about creative industries and who now live from hand to how we can improve the way the schemes that I have mouth. I know that the Minister and, indeed, Conservative mentioned are targeted. Members, are keen to recognise what the Government We have adapted already. We extended the cut-off have done—I am sorry if that did not come through point by which workers needed to be on their company’s strongly enough in my speech. I said the coronavirus payroll to be eligible to be furloughed, allowing more job retention scheme and self-employment income support workers to receive those payments, and that potentially scheme are very welcome, and they have been important includes freelancers paid through PAYE. Some workers lifelines for millions of people, but we are asking for may be able to benefit from the recent changes that parity for those who have been left out. allow employers to re-furlough workers who left their I will pick up a couple of points of detail that jobs between 23 September and 30 October. And since the Minister gave us about the £50,000 threshold and July, employers have been able to bring back previously the average for people over that threshold. If the furloughed workers while still claiming from the Government are worried about that, why not look at a Government for any hours not worked. We have adapted taper? If they were worried about people who do not the self-employment income support scheme to help necessarily need support and who are high earners, why new parents who have taken time out of work, along did they not put a similar threshold in place for the with self-employed armed forces reservists, who were furlough scheme? It is quite possible that two employees previously not covered. earning £100,000 got furlough payments, but somebody 471WH Covid-19 Support Schemes: 9 DECEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Support Schemes: 472WH Ineligible People Ineligible People [Munira Wilson] don’t understand; these are Tory supporters. Why isn’t this Government helping them?” I said, “I don’t know. who earned £51,000 through self-employment got no Go and ask your friends in the Tory party.” support. How is that fair? The Treasury Committee If the points that I made about mental health are too actually pointed out that example. emotive, and if the arguments around fairness do not The Minister also talked about people who get less cut through with Ministers, they should look at what than 50% of their income from self-employment—they makes economic sense, as the SNP spokesperson, the get a minimal amount through that source. As I and hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant), said. others have said, they often earn through PAYE, but If the Minister will indulge me, I will return to my some of those are short-term contracts. All that data is fantastic storybook in the 40 seconds I have left. After with HMRC, and, as we have heard, it is not beyond the the storm ended and Bear recognised the talents of all wit of some of the very intelligent officials to work the hard-working mice who were left out, he apologised through those solutions. to all the mice and promised that they will never be I am grateful that the Minister confirmed that he will ignored again: “Mouse was so happy that she painted a look at some of the solutions, and I am very grateful special picture and when it was sold, Mouse made not that, finally, after months of asking, a Minister—the one, not two, but three piles of food—one for her, one Financial Secretary to the Treasury—is meeting officers for Bear and this time a much, much bigger one for all of the APPG and representatives of the various excluded the mice to share.” groups. Hopefully, they will look at some of the really That is an allegory about the economic benefits of detailed solutions that have been put forward, beyond helping those who have been excluded. I look forward those that the Minister referred to. I also welcome the to hearing a slightly different response the next time we great campaign of the right hon. Member for Tatton come back to this debate. Hopefully, there will not be a (Esther McVey) on supermarkets. If some of that money next time—the Minister will solve it before Christmas. can be ploughed in to fill the gaps, that would be Question put and agreed to. fantastic. Resolved, If Conservative Members will not listen to Opposition Members, there are many other Conservative Members That this House has considered support for people ineligible who have made the case. We heard from my hon. Friend for Government covid-19 support schemes. the Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) that many affected people are Tory voters. In fact, Iain 5.30 pm Dale said to me on LBC a few months ago, “Munira, I Sitting adjourned. 29WS Written Statements 9 DECEMBER 2020 Written Statements 30WS

through a major extension to the level 3 entitlement for Written Statements adults, which will be funded from the National Skills Fund. Wednesday 9 December 2020 Now more than ever we need to ensure adults can upskill and retrain, to support the immediate economic BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL recovery and to boost the nation’s skills with the expertise STRATEGY employers need, which is a key part of the Government’s plan for jobs. It is also vital that we deliver for the large Companies House: Reform number of adults who do not go straight from school to university. The National Skills Fund is a long-term, substantial The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, investment of £2.5 billion—£3 billion including devolved Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): My right Administrations—which will drive adult retraining and hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Climate support our ambitious agenda for reform of further Change and Corporate Responsibility (Lord Callanan) education. It is essential that adults reap the benefits of our has today made the following statement: reform through a skills system that meets their needs The Government have today published three further consultations to take forward their plans to reform the UK’s along with the needs of employers across the nation. register of company information and give businesses greater Starting from April 2021, any adult looking to achieve confidence in who they are doing business with. their first full level 3— which is equivalent to a technical These consultations follow the Government’s response to certificate or diploma, or two full A-levels—will be able the 2019 consultation to enhance the role of Companies House to access a fully funded course. This will give them new and increase the transparency of companies and other legal skills and greater prospects in the labour market. We entities, which was published on 18 September 2020. will ensure that if they choose to study a short course The key proposals of the consultations are: this will not prevent them from taking a further course. Querying power consultation: Companies House will have We plan to spend £95 million on this important new new powers to query information, which will be exercised on a risk-based approach. The consultation also explores how commitment in year one. This will include a funding its powers will be strengthened in a range of areas, including uplift for qualifications included in this offer, to support to close various loopholes and remove information from the providers to scale up their level 3 provision for adults companies register. and meet the needs of learners as we build back better Accounts filing consultation: This consultation invites views from the pandemic. on how companies might in future be able to file accounts It is important that this is a truly national offer, and once with Government, instead of providing separate filings to Companies House, HMRC and other agencies. We are we must ensure that all learners can access this valuable also reviewing the way small companies submit accounts to training regardless of where they live.Weare working closely get the balance right between minimising burdens whilst with providers and local areas, including the mayoral ensuring the information provided is actually informative. combined authorities and Greater London Authority, We are also proposing to require all companies to file to ensure this national offer is delivered effectively accounts to Companies House in digital formats, and to give across the nation and that funding is targeted at valuable Companies House more powers to check information in subjects that are a key priority for the nation. those accounts. Corporate directors’ consultation: To tackle opaque corporate We have identified a range of qualifications that will structures, we propose that corporate directors will be prohibited meet current and future skills needs across the nation, unless their own boards comprise all natural persons, and and have engaged with business representatives, local those natural persons have their identities verified. areas and education and training providers on the These consultations are another important step in the development of the qualifications list. We have focused developing the detail of our package of reforms and will on provision that ensures good returns for individuals, have a negligible impact on the speed at which incorporation employers and the economy, as well as those most and other filings are completed: we still expect the vast majority critical skill areas. of companies to be able to incorporate easily within 24 hours. A copy of the consultations will be deposited in the We will keep the course list under regular review to Libraries of both Houses. ensure it adapts to the changing needs of the economy. [HCWS634] Adults accessing this new level 3 adult offer can do so in the confidence that they will be gaining skills that are valued by employers and will help them secure a better EDUCATION job that may have previously been out of reach. There Lifetime Skills Guarantee will be a facility for awarding organisations and local areas to suggest additions to the list. The courses on offer will deliver a wide range of skills The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson): that will open the door to many jobs and sectors. In his announcement about the Lifetime Skills Guarantee Qualifications in these sector subject areas will help in September, the Prime Minister set out his vision to individuals access new jobs and, in many cases, earn transform the training and skills system for the 21st century higher wages too. From April we will be offering access economy and help the country to build back better to qualifications to support the following areas: from the coronavirus pandemic. As a country, and as a Government, we believe passionately that everyone should Engineering be helped to reach their potential, and that opportunities Building and Construction to do so, across a lifetime, must be increased. Today I Manufacturing Technologies am pleased to be able to update both Houses on key Transportation Operations and Maintenance steps we are taking to deliver the Lifetime Skills Guarantee Business Management 31WS Written Statements 9 DECEMBER 2020 Written Statements 32WS

Public Services The objective of this extension is to protect businesses Accounting and Finance unable to pay their full rent from eviction until March Medicine and Dentistry 2021, taking the length of these measures to one year. Horticulture and Forestry This will give them time to start to recover from the impact of the pandemic, plan for the future and protect Health and Social Care jobs. The Government have brought forward this measure ICT Practitioners to support the businesses struggling the most during the ICT for Users pandemic, such as those in hospitality. We are clear that Mathematics and Statistics those able to pay their rent, must do so. Science We recognise the impact that this extension has on Agriculture landlords and lenders, therefore Government are being Nursing and Vocations and Subjects Allied to Medicine clear that this is the final extension to this temporary Child Development and Wellbeing measure. We expect both sides of the sector to use this Environmental conservation time to negotiate and the Government will issue further Teaching and lecturing guidance to facilitate constructive discussions. Warehousing and distribution We are aware of concerns that some tenants who We will continue to build on our wider plans for adult could pay rent are refusing to do so. The Government skills and I will update the House on our progress in due are clear that this measure is not a rent holiday: where a course. In the meantime, we will continue to engage tenant is unable to pay in full, landlords and tenants closely with stakeholders as we progress and develop should be coming together to negotiate in good faith, detailed plans for the National Skills Fund, including using the principles set out in the voluntary code of our consultation planned for spring next year. practice we published in June. This recommends that those tenants who can pay in full should do so, those [HCWS632] who cannot should pay what they can and those landlords who are able to grant concessions should do so. This code of practice and approach was supported by a wide HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL range of sector bodies representing tenants and landlords. GOVERNMENT While we have seen many constructive discussions happening between landlords and tenants, I am aware there are growing concerns that the current commercial High Streets: Rent Arrears Moratorium leasehold legislation has not kept pace with the commercial realities of the sector. I am therefore also announcing we will be launching The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and a review of the commercial landlord and tenant relationship Local Government (Robert Jenrick): I have today laid a in the new year. The review will make recommendations statutory instrument that will extend the moratorium to the Government on how to ensure a flexible and on commercial landlords’ right to forfeit a lease due to fit-for-purpose legislative framework that enables sustainable the non-payment of rent until 31 March 2021. occupation of thriving high streets/town centres in the This will also automatically amend the commercial future. It will consider a broad range of issues including rent arrears recovery measures led by the Ministry of the Landlord & Tenant Act 1954 part II, different Justice, through which landlords can seize goods in lieu models of rent payment, and the impact of coronavirus of unpaid rent. Toensure alignment between this measure on the market; for example if we can improve the and the moratorium, from the next quarter date on experience of UK businesses by ensuring that foreign-based 25 December the total number of days’ outstanding landlords have an agent operating in the UK. Both rent required for this tool to be used will be increased to landlords and tenants have previously called for such a 366 days, and this will be in place until 31 March. review and I will make further announcements on the Accompanying restrictions on the service of statutory detail, including a timeline and full scope, in due course. demands and winding-up petitions, currently in place England, Northern Ireland and Wales are covered by until 31 December,are also being extended until 31 March the protection from forfeiture in the Coronavirus Act. 2021. This means formal demands for the repayment of Section 82 relates to England and Wales, and the Welsh debt and requests to the courts to liquidate a business Government are currently considering an extension to owing rent, cannot be made until after the final moratorium their equivalent moratorium. Section 83 relates to Northern comes to an end. Ireland, who are also considering a similar extension. The moratorium was established via section 82 of the The Scottish Government passed separate emergency Coronavirus Act 2020 and was due to expire on legislation to implement similar measures. 31 December 2020. It has now been extended for a final [HCWS633] time by three months and will expire on 31 March 2021. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 9 December 2020

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 834 SCOTLAND—continued Engagements...... 834 End of the Transition Period: Preparedness...... 832 Green Industrial Jobs...... 825 SCOTLAND...... 825 Hydrogen Projects...... 829 Armed Forces ...... 827 Tay Cities Deal...... 828 COP26 ...... 831 United Kingdom Internal Market Bill ...... 830 Covid-19: Co-ordination...... 833 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 9 December 2020

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL STRATEGY ...... 29WS GOVERNMENT...... 31WS Companies House: Reform ...... 29WS High Streets: Rent Arrears Moratorium ...... 31WS EDUCATION...... 29WS Lifetime Skills Guarantee ...... 29WS No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 16 December 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 685 Wednesday No. 149 9 December 2020

CONTENTS

Wednesday 9 December 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 825] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

EU Withdrawal Agreement [Col. 847] Statement—(Michael Gove)

UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces Deployment [Col. 872] Statement—(James Heappey)

Sexual Exploitation [Col. 887] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Dame Diana Johnson)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill: Business of the House [Col. 893] Motion—(Michael Tomlinson)—agreed to

Taxation (Post-transition Period) Bill [Col. 897] Motion for Second Reading—(Jesse Norman)—on a Division, agreed to Read a Second time Considered further in Committee

Exiting the European Union (Immigration and Asylum) [Col. 942] Motion—(Mike Freer)—on a Division, agreed to

Petition [Col. 946]

Local Government Finance: Croydon [Col. 947] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Covid-19: NAO Report on Government Procurement [Col. 389WH] Disabled Children: Accessible and Inclusive Education [Col. 416WH] Government Policy on Iran [Col. 424WH] Rural Scotland: Excess Delivery Charges [Col. 447WH] Covid-19 Support Schemes: Ineligible People [Col. 454WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 29WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]