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Home , Abbotsford South, Adrian Dix, Burnaby North, Delta South, Harry Bains, Peace River North

Fourth Session, 41st Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday, November 20, 2019 Afernoon Sitting Issue No. 293

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 1499-2175 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC

Fourth Session, 41st Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Darryl Plecas

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Attorney General...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ...... Hon. Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy...... Hon. Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ...... Hon. Minister of Health ...... Hon. Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Trade and Technology...... Hon. Minister of State for Trade...... Hon. Minister of Labour ...... Hon. Minister of Mental Health and Addictions...... Hon. Minister of Municipal Afairs and Housing and Minister of Citizens’ Services ...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Ofcial Opposition...... , QC Leader of the Tird Party ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Joan Isaacs Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Acting Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Clerk Assistant — Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ...... Susan Sourial Sessional Law Clerk...... Loredana Catalli-Sonier, QC Parliamentary Counsel ...... S. Suzie Seo Acting Sergeant-at-Arms...... Greg Nelson ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Penticton Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton ...... Hon. Darryl Plecas Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Michael de Jong, QC Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Boundary-Similkameen...... Linda Larson Begg, Garry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Guildford –Deer Lake ...... Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Katrina Chen Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... –West End ...... Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Chilliwack...... John Martin Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack-Kent...... Laurie Troness Chow, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fraserview Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Joan Isaacs Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Hon. Selina Robinson Conroy, Hon. Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Courtenay-Comox ...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Darcy, Hon. Judy (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley ...... Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... ...... de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West ...... Dean, Mitzi (NDP)...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Esquimalt-Metchosin...... D’Eith, Bob (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Dix, Hon. Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Tompson...... Donaldson, Hon. Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Tompson ...... Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Kelowna–Lake Country...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Steve Tomson Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam ...... Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay East ...... Foster, Eric (BC Liberal)...... Vernon-Monashee Kootenay West ...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Fraser, Hon. Scott (NDP) ...... Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Langford–Juan de Fuca...... Hon. John Horgan Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ...... Cowichan Valley Langley...... Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Langley East ...... Glumac, Rick (NDP)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Bob D’Eith Heyman, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Hon. Lisa Beare Horgan, Hon. John (NDP) ...... Langford–Juan de Fuca Mid Island–Pacifc Rim ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Nanaimo ...... Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... James, Hon. Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Nechako Lakes ...... Johal, Jas (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Queensborough Nelson-Creston...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)...... Delta North New Westminster ...... Hon. Judy Darcy Kang, Anne (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake North Coast...... Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)...... Shuswap North Island ...... Hon. Claire Trevena Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Tornthwaite Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ...... Courtenay-Comox Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Parksville-Qualicum ...... Ma, Bowinn (NDP)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Peace River North...... Malcolmson, Sheila (NDP) ...... Nanaimo Peace River South...... Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Penticton...... Martin, John (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack Port Coquitlam ...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–North Tompson Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Mungall, Hon. Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount...... Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)...... Saanich North and the Islands ...... Paton, Ian (BC Liberal)...... Delta South Richmond-Queensborough ...... Plecas, Hon. Darryl (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South ...... Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston...... Popham, Hon. Lana (NDP)...... Saanich North and the Islands...... Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South...... Hon. Lana Popham Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Shuswap ...... Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond South Centre Skeena ...... Rice, Jennifer (NDP)...... North Coast Stikine ...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Robinson, Hon. Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale...... Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)...... Skeena Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Jagrup Brar Routledge, Janet (NDP)...... Burnaby North Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Guildford ...... Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton...... Hon. Harry Bains Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Surrey-Panorama...... Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey South...... Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley...... Hon. Bruce Ralston Sims, Jinny (NDP)...... Surrey-Panorama Surrey–White Rock...... Tracy Redies Singh, Rachna (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Vancouver-Fairview ...... Hon. George Heyman Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna West Vancouver–False Creek...... Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. George Chow Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–South Tompson Vancouver-Hastings ...... Hon. Shane Simpson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Kensington ...... Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kingsway ...... Hon. Adrian Dix Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Langara ...... Michael Lee Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Hon. Melanie Mark Tomson, Steve (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. David Eby, QC Tornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Troness, Laurie (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack-Kent Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond North Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Hon. Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (BC Green Party) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake ...... Hon. Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Yap, John (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ......

Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; BC Green Party 3; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Wednesday, November 20, 2019 Afernoon Sitting Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 10579

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 10581 Remembrance of historical events J. Routledge Krow’s TRANSformation flm on transgender issues J. Tornthwaite Transgender Day of Remembrance M. Dean Protection of Tompson River steelhead J. Tegart Commercial fshing industry J. Rice Vickie Sangster I. Paton

Oral Questions...... 10583 Labour dispute in transit system A. Wilkinson Hon. H. Bains J. Johal Logging practices and protection of whitebark pine S. Furstenau Hon. D. Donaldson Protection of wildlife species at risk S. Furstenau Hon. G. Heyman Labour dispute in transit system M. de Jong Hon. H. Bains Community benefts agreement and advice to government S. Bond Hon. C. Trevena J. Tornthwaite Hon. M. Farnworth

Tabling Documents...... 10588 Gaming policy and enforcement branch, annual report 2018-19

Petitions ...... 10588 Hon. C. Trevena T. Stone

Personal Statements ...... 10588 Withdrawal of comments made in the House Hon. H. Bains

Tabling Answers ...... 10588 Hon. C. Trevena

Orders of the Day

Committee of the Whole House...... 10588 Bill 37 — Financial Institutions Amendment Act, 2019 (continued) S. Bond Hon. C. James S. Cadieux

Reporting of Bills...... 10596 Bill 37 — Financial Institutions Amendment Act, 2019 Tird Reading of Bills ...... 10596 Bill 37 — Financial Institutions Amendment Act, 2019

Second Reading of Bills ...... 10596 Bill 45 — Taxation Statutes Amendment Act, 2019 Hon. C. James T. Stone S. Furstenau N. Letnick S. Chandra Herbert S. Bond Hon. A. Dix Hon. C. James

Committee of the Whole House...... 10612 Bill 39 — Miscellaneous Statutes (Minor Corrections) and Statute Revision Amendment Act, 2019 P. Milobar Hon. D. Eby A. Weaver

Reporting of Bills...... 10614 Bill 39 — Miscellaneous Statutes (Minor Corrections) and Statute Revision Amendment Act, 2019

Committee of the Whole House...... 10614 Bill 40 — Interpretation Amendment Act, 2019 L. Larson T. Shypitka Hon. D. Eby M. Bernier A. Weaver

Tabling Documents...... 10618 B.C. Judicial Compensation Commission, fnal report, 2019

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of the Whole House...... 10618 Bill 41 — Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act (continued) M. Lee Hon. S. Fraser M. de Jong 10579

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 20, 2019 couver police department, representing the Uniform Gang Task Force, Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit with Te House met at 1:35 p.m. the B.C. RCMP; and Cpl. Ryan Shaw, representing the Uni- form Gang Task Force, Combined Forces Special Enforce- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] ment Unit, B.C. RCMP. Would the House please join us in making these distin- Routine Business guished guests most welcome.

Prayers. J. Tornthwaite: I have some very special guests to intro- duce today. My newly elected MP, Terry Beech, as well as his Introductions by Members lovely wife, Ravi, and the special baby, Nova, is up there. On behalf of the member for Burnaby North as well as Burnaby- Hon. D. Eby: We’re joined today by a group of dispute Lougheed, I’d like us all to make them welcome. resolution experts who are gathered here in Victoria — this might be helpful for the House — for the ADR Insti- Hon. D. Donaldson: Joining us today in the gallery and tute of Canada’s 45th annual general meeting and national in the precinct are representatives and members of the Com- conference. munity Futures of British Columbia. It’s my pleasure to introduce to the House Andrew Butt, [1:40 p.m.] president of the ADR Institute of Canada; Elton Simoes, Mike Guarnery is CFBC chair from the East Kootenays; president of the ADR Institute of British Columbia; Barbara Troy Dungate, Community Futures B.C. vice-chair from McNeil, president of the ADR Institute of Alberta; Viki Scott, Fraser–Fort George; Tom Hofman, CFBC director from representing the ADR Institute of Ontario; Andrew the Cariboo-Chilcotin; John Farrell, CFBC director from Wychenka, representing the ADR Institute of Manitoba; and the Pacifc Northwest; Bob Annis, CFBC past chair and Janet McKay, executive director, ADR Institute of Canada. director from Cowichan; plus a number of staf — the Will the House please welcome these very necessary dis- executive director of the organization, Cheryl Johnson, pute resolution experts to this House here today. Debra Arnott, Karen Eden, Cathy Robertson and others I might have missed. Hon. A. Dix: Canuck Place Children’s Hospice is, I think, I want to thank them for their work, through the 34 ofces loved by people around British Columbia who have given through rural communities in B.C., supporting small and it enormous support over the years. I want to welcome to medium-sized enterprises. Tank you for the very inform- the House today Denise Praill, who is the chief development ative meeting we had this morning. Would the members ofcer, and ask everyone to wish her welcome. please make them welcome. I have one more. Joining us today, all the way from M. Stilwell: Joining us in the House today is one of the Hazelton, B.C., 1,000 kilometres north of here, is my wife, funniest people I’ve met this week. She’s on tour with the Anne. Would the members please make her welcome. Steve Patterson holiday special of Te Debaters. She’s an award-winning Canadian comedian, writer and columnist. A. Kang: I have a few friends who are in the gallery today. Last night she successfully debated that Mrs. Claus is, in fact, Tey are part of the delegation from the Greater Victoria superior to Santa’s elves. Would the house please welcome Taiwanese Canadian Association. Tese friends are actually DeAnne Smith. from the Minister of Education’s riding. On his behalf, I would like to welcome Hung Shu Fen, Michael Magone, Chi- Hon. M. Farnworth: Today is the National Day of Hsin Sung, Naoki Takahashi, Yuka Kawai as well as Kesorn Remembrance for Road Crash Victims. We’re joined by sev- Meecharoensiri. I would like the House to please make them eral road safety law enforcement leaders who, just a few very welcome. hours ago, received awards recognizing their outstanding eforts to make communities safer. R. Sultan: In the galleries today, we have several distin- Please help me welcome Chief Const. Neil Dubord of the guished citizens from West Vancouver. Old friends John and Delta police department, who’s also chair of the B.C. Asso- Cathy Cave are accompanied by their grandson Austin Mil- ciation of Chiefs of Police Trafc safety committee; Const. lius and John’s cousin Kevin Pearse, visiting from England. Brad Robinson, representing south Vancouver Island trafc Now, it is said that Austin’s mother, Kristi, was perhaps the services, E division trafc services, with the B.C. RCMP; Oak youngest elected politician ever in the history of West Van- Bay constable Eric Tompson, who’s with the capital region- couver. So we’re looking forward to Austin following in his al district Integrated Road Safety Unit, E division trafc ser- mother’s footsteps. Would you please make them welcome. vices, B.C. RCMP; Const. Martin Schmidt, representing the West Kootenay Integrated Road Safety Unit, E division Hon. K. Conroy: I’m really pleased. I’ve got two very spe- trafc services, B.C. RCMP; Sgt. Aaron Kazuta of the Van- cial men in my life in the gallery today. One of them is my 10580 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

husband, Ed, the former MLA for Rossland-Trail. I have to Hon. G. Chow: I also would like to introduce members of tell you that in all the years I’ve been elected, I think this is the Taiwanese community leaders. Tey come from a diverse maybe his tenth time that he’s joined us in the gallery. It’s community. Tis one is from Premier John Horgan’s riding, great to have him here. Ms. Julie Lee. Also, Sueh Yung Lu. I’d like to welcome them Te other very special person in my life is my 91-year-old here. If the House would do the same for them. Tank you. father, Ben Tor-Larsen. I have to beg your indulgence a bit here. My dad is an avid curler, and at 91, he won the award J. Rice: I, too, have two constituents today in the House. in Castlegar for the…. It’s like the superstar of curlers. What Both work for Ecotrust Canada, an important not-for-proft he has to do for this award is: he has a little hand-carved red in my hometown of Prince Rupert. truck that he has to take with him everywhere he goes and Chelsey Ellis is a third-generation commercial fsherman get pictures and, afer the year, take it back to the curling with a bachelor of science in biology. She has over eight rink and show them where he’s gone. years of experience on the water through work as a biologist, I would like to please beg indulgence of you all. If you see observer and commercial fsh harvester. She has worked on my father approaching you with his little red wooden truck, the ground as a deckhand in B.C.’s spot prawn, Dungeness if you would please have a picture with him so he can take crab, live rockfsh and salmon gillnet fsheries. that back to the Castlegar Curling Club and show where he I also want to note — this is really cool — she’s currently has been on his journeys. working towards obtaining her chief mate…. I think we say Please join me in welcoming these people. a 150 tonne ticket. Did I say that correctly — a 150GT ticket? I’m not exactly sure what it is, but I know it means a big boat. D. Barnett: I, too, would like to recognize two people I also want to introduce Shannon Lough. She’s originally from my riding — I get very few, like many of us: Karen from Ottawa and is now a proud Rupertite. She’s been shar- Eden, the CEO of Community Futures Williams Lake, and ing stories from the chambers of parliament to salmon runs Tom Hofman, who is the chair of Community Futures Wil- in the Skeena. She has a master’s degree in journalism from liams Lake. Please welcome them here again today. Carleton University. She felt compelled to work in a rural community where her reporting could make an impact, and Hon. C. James: I also have constituents who are visiting that she is doing. She is an engaging storyteller and is Eco- me today who are leaders in the Taiwanese community, part trust’s communications and engagement manager. of the group that is visiting and touring today: Chi Ping Would the House please make them both feel welcome. Chung, Sia Nishamura and Regine Sue Tatchell. Would the House make them very welcome. Hon. S. Fraser: I rise today to acknowledge the Minister’s Advisory Council on Indigenous Women, also known as A. Weaver: I have a number of leaders from the Taiwanese MACIW. community here in Greater Victoria to introduce from my Tis council meets with me throughout the year. Today riding today. Tey are Kayshi Chuang, Julia Meiling Chen, they are undertaking their important deliberations here at Kathleen Chuang, Enning Hu, Youhau Cheng, Huawei the Legislature, as leaders and advocates with respect to Wang, Joe Chi Chung, Jin Hue Cheng as well as Sung Mi issues impacting Indigenous women and girls. I deeply value Kim. As you can tell, we have a very vibrant Taiwanese com- their perspectives on decisions we’re making as government. munity in Victoria. Te council was created in 2011 to provide advice on how [1:45 p.m.] to improve the quality of life for Indigenous women across On that note, hon. Speaker, and with your permission, I the province. Over the years, their role has continued to would also like to announce to the House that today is the evolve. Now the focus includes collaborating across govern- beginning of the 24 Hours of Reality. Tis is 24 hours of ment as we work towards advancing towards a collective vis- talks being held around the world, over 1,700 talks on the ion towards reconciliation. Tis includes our eforts towards importance of climate change. I just attended one at Oak implementing the UN declaration on the rights of Indigen- Bay High School. ous peoples, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s In the spirit of the ongoing competition between Reynolds calls to action and, of course, the 231 calls to justice stem- and Oak Bay, I proudly was presented an Oak Bay Barbarian ming from the federal missing and murdered Indigenous rugby jersey. I’m looking forward to Oak Bay playing Reyn- women and girls inquiry. olds this year in the upcoming rugby season and trouncing We are honoured to have this group of highly regarded them, as we did back in the 1970s. women sharing their voices, wisdom and perspectives with government. I would like to acknowledge chair Chastity Hon. L. Popham: I also have leaders from the Taiwanese Davis, vice-chair Barbara Ward-Burkitt, Elder representative community visiting from Saanich South today. I have Lee Dr. Lorna Williams. I would like to share this opportunity Chung Ming, Wan Chu Sang and Jo Sue Martin Velasquez to acknowledge MACIW with my colleague the MLA for Rochene. Welcome to the chamber. Esquimalt-Metchosin. Tank you very much. Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10581

M. Dean: I, too, would like to acknowledge the members national grievance, all creating a sense of crisis that encour- of the Minister’s Advisory Council on Indigenous Women. aged citizens to voluntarily hand over their freedoms to In my role as Parliamentary Secretary for Gender Equity, demagogues in exchange for the promise of predictable I truly appreciate how hard the council is working to build order and safety. understanding of Indigenous, gender-based analysis across Last week we remembered those who had to die because government. Te council has been instrumental in ensuring their leaders didn’t see what was coming. Leaders today do the inclusion of Indigenous women’s voices. Tey provide not have that excuse. We can see what’s coming. While we advice on housing, poverty reduction, education, Indigenous may feel small in the face of what is happening on the world justice, child welfare, policing and so much more. Te coun- stage, we can at least agree to refrain from stoking the nar- cil is also advising the province on its response to the nation- rative of rage, fear and mistrust. al inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women. [1:50 p.m.] KROW’S TRANSFORMATION I have really enjoyed spending a bit of time with them FILM ON TRANSGENDER ISSUES over the past couple of days. I ask the House to acknowledge members Coreen Child, Patricia Barkaskas, Sarah Robinson J. Tornthwaite: Yesterday I had the privilege to welcome and Monique Gray Smith, and also youth representative some important guests to the Legislature. Afer many years Raven Lacerte. I believe there are three members not present of hard work, Gina Hole Lazarowich, joined by the subjects in the House today, including Helen Knott and Lauren of her documentary, presented her flm to members of the Brown. I thank the members that are here today for the House. Gina is a constituent, but she’s also a successful pro- opportunity that we can show our appreciation and acknow- ducer and flm-maker. ledgment of the members of the Council on Indigenous Her latest project, Krow’s TRANSformation, is premiering Women, and I raise my hands to their work. tonight on OUTtv. It follows the three-year journey of a I also have leaders from the Taiwanese community from former teen model into his true, authentic self. Afer six Esquimalt-Metchosin here today. We have Shang Su, Ming years as a globe-trotting female fashion model, Krow Lee and Seo Yun Kim. Please would the House make them embarked on the journey towards physically becoming a very welcome. man at the age of 18. Troughout the documentary, which has received international acclaim, we not only witness Statements Krow’s physical changes; we also witness some of the heart- (Standing Order 25B) breaking interviews with his friends and family to see how his transition impacted those close to him. REMEMBRANCE OF HISTORICAL EVENTS I was honoured to participate in the flm Krow’s TRANS- formation, an important documentary not only showcasing J. Routledge: Last week we attended ceremonies all over Krow’s journey through transition but also the importance British Columbia where we promised to remember those of empathy towards others. Man, woman or however you who went to war so we could live in peace. But do we identify, we are all human at the end of the day. remember why they were called upon to sacrifce their lives, [1:55 p.m.] their health, their youth in the name of freedom? It was the Today is Transgender Day of Remembrance, where we are philosopher George Santayana who said, “Tose who can- encouraged to pause and refect on the many hurdles people not remember the past are condemned to repeat it,” words in the transgender community face as they attempt to lead that are inscribed on a plaque at the Auschwitz concentra- their everyday lives with their families, at their workplaces or tion camp. in their communities. Many people in my community are voicing their fear that I thank Gina, Krow, Kas Baker, Ashton Sciacallo, Nancy civilization is once again teetering on the brink of violent Van Neste-Baker, Michael Baker and Lisa Jacobsen for join- upheaval. Tey turn on their TVs and see white supremacists ing us last night to view the flm. Hopefully, documentaries marching in the streets. Tey hear their neighbours openly such as this can help reduce stigma, make us understand blaming immigrants for their own feelings of vulnerability. and promote inclusivity and empathy for all transgendered Tey watch those in positions of great power seeking to people and their families. undermine public confdence in democratic institutions, in the media, in science, and they see it working. TRANSGENDER DAY OF REMEMBRANCE It is unnerving how much of what is happening around the world today resembles what we now know was taking M. Dean: Across the world over the past year, 300 trans root in Germany and Italy almost 100 years ago — the delib- and gender-diverse people were murdered. Most were trans erate spread of misinformation, the systematic degradation women of colour, their average age just 31. Tey’re sisters, of political discourse, rhetoric that portrayed life as a dog- daughters, aunties and friends of ours and people in our eat-dog struggle in which one could only gain at the expense neighbourhoods. Tey had jobs and careers, ran businesses, of another and the fanning of the fames of regional and and many of them worked in the sex industry. 10582 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

November 20, today, is a day when we honour the caught in political games. I am being managed into extinc- memory of those innocent lives lost due to transphobia. tion. Every day trans and gender-diverse people are victims of [2:00 p.m.] horrifying hate violence, including extortion, physical and sexual assaults and murder. Tis violence and the discrim- COMMERCIAL FISHING INDUSTRY ination against trans and gender-diverse people perpetuates an ongoing cycle of oppression. It is made worse with other J. Rice: Tomorrow, November 21, is World Fisheries Day. oppression such as racism, sexism, xenophobia and anti–sex I’d like to take a moment to acknowledge not only the worker sentiment and discrimination. importance of the fshing sector to my riding of North Coast Every day, and especially on days like today, I stand frm but to say thanks for the important contributions of the fsh- with my colleagues in our commitment to continue the ing sector to all of B.C. fght to end gender-based violence. We reafrm our com- Commercial fshing is one of the founding industries of mitment for fghting for a better world, where the accept- this province. Its signifcance can be seen painted on the ceil- ance of self-expression and gender identity isn’t up for ings of the B.C. Legislature, and B.C. is actively working right debate — a world with equal opportunities, safety and the now towards a made-in-B.C. wild salmon strategy. Te fsh- freedom to be who we are. ing sector is a cornerstone in the economic and social fabric Today I was so proud to be joined by colleagues and trans- of B.C.’s coast. gender people and allies and raise the transgender fag at the Fishing is deeply rooted in our history and our culture. B.C. Legislature for the frst time in history, a moment that is But fshing communities are struggling, and fshermen long overdue. We stand with trans people in B.C. and around nowadays are ofen portrayed as the culprits in all the negat- the world and commit to a better society — one that is safe ive impacts felt by fsh. I personally feel they are given a bad and truly inclusive for all. rap, an unfair rap. Tere are many infuences, including fsh- eries mismanagement, poor policies, warming oceans and PROTECTION OF habitat destruction that impact our global fsheries. Te THOMPSON RIVER STEELHEAD extraordinary eforts that went into an emergency response to the Big Bar Slide this summer are telling of the impacts of J. Tegart: I am born in the watershed of the Nicola River, climate change. along with thousands of others of my species. Who am I? I Close to home, independent fsh harvesters need protec- hang around for a couple of years to build strength and agil- tions to rebuild the backbone of the rural middle class along ity for my next phase of my life. What am I? I leave the Nic- our coast. Tens of millions of dollars of licences and quotas ola watershed, swim down to join the Tompson River in granting access to Canada’s public fshery have been snapped Spences Bridge, join the Tompson down to the Fraser and up by corporate interests. Speculators are buying up fshing go out to the Pacifc Ocean. access to lease to fsh processors and rent back to fsh har- Have you guessed who I am yet? I’m not cute and cuddly vesters for proft, taking income directly out of their pockets like a polar bear or a grizzly bear. I’m ferce and mighty. You and out of coastal communities. don’t see pictures of me on protest signs or post cards, but Policies need to be put in place to ensure that fshing you should. I am an iconic species in British Columbia, and licences and the benefts they provide are for local fshermen my species is in trouble. and for local fshing communities, not for speculative I am a mighty Tompson River steelhead, and I am here to investors, international shareholders or seafood processors tell you that if something isn’t done soon, I won’t be around to stife competition for our resources. Te economic viabil- in the future. When I am born, I’m surrounded by thou- ity of the next generation of fshermen and our coastal com- sands of fsh just like me. We make an arduous journey to munities depends on improving these policies. the Pacifc Ocean, and when we return to our spawning Tonight MLAs have an opportunity to meet with fsher- grounds, back up the Fraser into the Tompson and back to men from diferent sectors from all over the B.C. coast to the Nicola watershed, there are only 80 of us lef. learn more about these challenges and the awesome oppor- We run the gauntlet through Vancouver Harbour into the tunities. Tey are serving up what I understand is a seafood Fraser River, where we encounter gillnet fshing. Afer being extravaganza, fve-star, not to be missed. When you go, don’t caught once, I am hurt. Afer the third and fourth time, I am forget to thank a fsherman. exhausted, and I wonder if I can make the journey home. Into the Tompson I go, past fshermen who travel from VICKIE SANGSTER all over the world to catch and release me, into the Nicola and Coldwater watershed to spawn and then start the jour- I. Paton: I rise today to pay tribute to a friend and a ney again. I’m doing my part to sustain my species, but I am local icon, Vickie Sangster, who, at age 62, passed away a few in desperate need of assistance from all of you. weeks ago afer a fve-and-a-half-year-long battle with can- I feel like no one cares. I feel like I’m forgotten. I feel cer. Vickie Sangster was a tireless volunteer in Delta with Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10583

a passion for giving. Everyone in Delta knew that if you people who work at Vancouver General Hospital can’t get wanted to get something done, you gave it to Vickie. to work, for instance. As a proud Rotarian, Vickie was awarded Rotarian of the Tis is critical, and sadly, we have seen no sign of any Year, the Paul Harris Fellow award and an honorary lifetime activity whatsoever from the government benches. We have membership. As a Rotarian, Vickie was involved in many no sign of any activity from the Premier, and the Minister community building projects across Delta. Her greatest of Labour is so totally invisible on this fle that no one even accomplishment in the community was championing the knows his name. Rotary water park and musical garden in Diefenbaker Park Te obvious question that arises: if we’re trying to address in Tsawwassen. Vicki later became an adviser for the Ladner the critically important infrastructure in Metro Vancouver Rotary water park. that keeps the system running, that keeps our society func- In addition to her work with Rotary, Vickie was a dir- tional, when is this Minister of Labour going to actually do ector with the Delta Sports Hall of Fame and a team leader something rather than sit in his ofce and smirk? with the Butterfies of the Delta Hospice Cottage. She also volunteered countless hours making soup for Food on the Hon. H. Bains: Yes, obviously, it is very difcult news for Corner. In 2014, Vickie was honoured for her extraordin- all those who use transit on a daily basis on the Lower Main- ary contributions to our community and awarded Delta’s land. No one wants disruption of services that we all depend Citizen of the Year. on. It hurts families, hurts workers. Tat’s why we are urging In the spring of 2014, Vickie received the devastating dia- both sides to get back to the bargaining table. gnosis. While this terminal diagnosis did not defne her, it I must make this clear. Tey are in no position to give did form the route of her journey for the next fve and a half any lessons to anybody when it comes to collective bargain- years. With her family by her side, Vickie valiantly fought ing. Te only thing they know about collective bargaining the fght and became a medical miracle in the process. Dur- is how to tear up collective agreements that were negoti- ing this time and without a single complaint, she contin- ated through collective bargaining. We’re not doing that. It’s ued to live her best life and enjoyed many trips and amazing a matter between the employer…. moments with her family and friends. Her zest for life was a true inspiration to everyone she encountered. Interjections. Two weeks ago a remembrance service was held for Vick- ie. It was truly inspiring to see hundreds of people from all Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. walks of life come to pay tribute to Vickie. Her life has made Minister. an impact on so many. If anyone’s list of accomplishments was half as long as hers, it would be said that that person Hon. H. Bains: It’s a matter between the Coast Mountain lived a full and impactful life. Bus Co. and the union. Tey have negotiated successfully Vickie is survived by her husband, Don, her three daugh- numerous collective agreements without any help from any- ters — Sonya, Bridget and Deanna — and her granddaugh- body. So that’s why I’m asking them to get back to the table, ter, Autumn. and that’s where the solutions and the fair deal can be found. Vicki’s motto in life was: “You only live once,” YOLO. And I expect that they will be back at the bargaining table and what a life she lived. She was a true icon in the community negotiate a collective agreement that they can both live with. and a true inspiration to all who knew her. [2:05 p.m.] Mr. Speaker: Te Leader of the Ofcial Opposition on a supplemental. Oral Questions A. Wilkinson: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour LABOUR DISPUTE IN TRANSIT SYSTEM talks about taking lessons in labour relations. Tere aren’t going to be any lessons at UBC, Kwantlen, Douglas College, A. Wilkinson: Today marks the 20th day of job action Emily Carr. Tey’ll all be shut down Wednesday through in the Metro Vancouver transit system. Tis job action has Tursday. already afected 1.4 million rides per day, close to one mil- He calls for patience. Well, there are diferent kinds of lion people using the system to get to work, to get to school, patients who aren’t going to have any visitors. Tey’re not to get to their appointments. going to have any nurses. Tere are going to be no LPNs to It’s critically important to the people of Metro Vancou- take care of them. Tere will be no lab technicians to take ver. It’s already been a source of frustration to the people their blood and measure it. who live in Metro Vancouver, and we have seen absolutely What does this minister think is going to happen when no action whatsoever from the government. Te union the transit system shuts down entirely next Wednesday announced that it now plans to conduct a full-scale sys- through Friday? He sits in his ofce here in Victoria and tem shutdown next Wednesday through Friday. Tis will takes his car to Surrey and says: “I guess that’s tough. It’s bring Metro Vancouver basically to a standstill as the 7,000 because of the collective bargaining process.” What are 10584 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

people supposed to do in a city of 2½ million people while Interjections. this minister sits on his duf and does no work at all? Mr. Speaker: Member, I didn’t hear the question. Sorry. Hon. H. Bains: As I said, we are looking for a speedy con- clusion to the labour disruptions in Metro Vancouver with a J. Johal: Mr. Speaker, this is an essential service. Te free and fair negotiated agreement. member for North Vancouver–Lonsdale has been missing [2:10 p.m.] in action on this issue. Te Minister of Labour has entered Te opposition would like you to believe that somehow some sort of NDP witness protection program. He has not they pretend to care about the ridership, the people who ride been heard from by the people of Vancouver. transit. But they didn’t care about the transit riders. When I ask, once again…. the mayors came to them for help, they said: “Suck it up.” Tey didn’t care about the riders when the expansion to Interjections. south of the Fraser was being discussed. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Interjections. J. Johal: Tis strike has dragged on for three weeks. Why Mr. Speaker: Members. has the Minister of Labour not appointed a mediator?

Hon. H. Bains: Tey and the Premier of that time said: Hon. H. Bains: As I said, they’re not in a position to “Well, we’ll have a referendum.” As a result, ten years have give lessons to anybody about collective bargaining — none gone by, and we have nothing to show for south of the Fraser, whatsoever. Tey have shown no respect to the working thanks to them. Certainly, they didn’t care about the riders people in this province, especially…. when they eliminated…. Interjections. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members, I’m concerned, again, Mr. Speaker: Members. Members, the Minister of Labour that we’re eating into time which could be spent asking ques- has the foor. Tank you. tions. Tank you.

Hon. H. Bains: All they care about is how to take a polit- Hon. H. Bains: When the Leader of the Opposition was ical advantage over labour disputes. We’re not doing that. going through his leadership campaign, he said that the Tey didn’t care about the riders when they eliminated the B.C. Liberals were sitting 30,000 feet up, out of touch with disability pass. We all remember that. Mr. Speaker…. reality. With their actions and what they’ve done in the last two years, they haven’t come down an inch. And if they Interjections. keep it up, they’ll be sitting on that side of the House for a long, long time. Mr. Speaker: Members. You know what? Te workers of this province are really happy they’re in the position to ask questions, not to answer Hon. H. Bains: Tey know, if they ever look in the mir- questions. ror…. If they ever talk to anybody who has done any collect- ive bargaining, they know that the best collective agreement Interjections. comes at the bargaining table. Negotiations take place not in the media, not in this chamber. At the bargaining table. We Mr. Speaker: Members. are urging both of them to get back to the bargaining table Te member for Richmond-Queensborough on a supple- and get a collective agreement. mental. [2:15 p.m.] J. Johal: Te Metro Vancouver transit system looks com- pletely diferent from 18 years ago, when the last strike took J. Johal: Te transit system exists today. It’s more essential place under the previous NDP government. Today there are to people’s lives than ever before. People use transit to go to 58 additional bus routes, 520 additional buses and 1,400 work, go to school. Tey have no other choice when it comes additional bus operators, and annual ridership has increased to transportation options. Both sides not negotiating holds by 206 million boardings a year. It’s an essential service. the public hostage. Current contract talks could not be more stalled, and it’s Over the last three weeks, the Premier and his Labour time for both sides to work towards a resolution. Te strike Minister have shown zero leadership. So I’m going to ask the has now dragged on for three weeks. Why has the Minister same question again, and I hope he can answer that question of Labour failed to appoint a mediator? on behalf of the people of British Columbia and the residents Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10585

of Vancouver. Why has the Labour Minister not appointed a First of all, on public lands, our government is committed mediator? to conserving B.C.’s diverse biology, and that includes the whitebark pine. It’s a species that grows in upper subalpine Hon. H. Bains: I don’t know if the member has ever been elevations. It grows above the tree line. It has limited com- involved in collective bargaining. I don’t think so. If he has, mercial value, and provincial practices specify the species is he would know…. not to be logged. [2:20 p.m.] Interjections. We are working with the federal government on the implementation of a recovery plan, including a rust-resist- Mr. Speaker: Members, we shall hear the…. ance screening program. Te major threat to whitebark pine is blister rust. So we’re planting seedlings that are resistant to Interjections. that. We’re working with the Conservation Data Centre on pine-mapping technology as well. Hon. H. Bains: If he had, then he wouldn’t be asking a stu- However, her question also brought up concerns, I pid question like this. believe, around logging on private managed forest lands. Tat act has not been reviewed since it was frst established Interjections. in 2003. We heard concerns about activities on private man- aged forest lands and that program, so we initiated a review. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members, please allow the minis- Tat review was launched. It’s now complete. We had 27 in- ter to respond. person sessions, received over 1,200 submissions, and we’ll be releasing a what-we-heard report…. It was released earli- Hon. H. Bains: Teir history on labour relations. You talk er this month. about 14 years of a fght that they picked with the teachers We’ll be engaging with local governments and First — 14 years — and the Supreme Court of Canada took only Nations to get more feedback on that report and implement- 20 minutes to say that what they did was illegal. Te Inter- ing our fnal report and recommendations from that in the national Labour Organization cited that government more new year. Tat has to do, again, with the whitebark pine. than once — that they were not complying with the interna- tional labour laws. Tat’s what they did. Mr. Speaker: Te House Leader, Tird Party, on a supple- Te best collective agreement is negotiated at the bargain- mental. ing table. Tat’s why I’m urging both sides to get back to the bargaining table and hammer out a fair collective agreement. PROTECTION OF WILDLIFE SPECIES AT RISK LOGGING PRACTICES AND PROTECTION OF WHITEBARK PINE S. Furstenau: Tank you to the minister for a thorough answer to things I didn’t quite ask. S. Furstenau: Te whitebark pine tree was listed as I did note the report. I did review it recently, and one of endangered under the federal Species at Risk Act in 2012. In the things that stood out was the predominance amongst 2017, the federal government released a proposed recovery stakeholders, citizens, interest groups, First Nations, local strategy for the whitebark pine in Canada. Forty-two percent governments about the lack of conservation and protection of the global population of this species lives in B.C., but since of ecosystems on private managed forest lands. the species was listed as endangered, more than 19,000 cubic British Columbia invests less in the protection of wildlife metres of the trees have been logged. per person or per hectare than any other state or province In 2013, Lake Louise Ski Resort in Alberta logged a patch in the Pacifc Northwest. Te discrepancy is startling, with of trees that included just a few dozen whitebark pine. Te Washington state, for example, spending 23 times more per company was fned $2.1 million for what the judge called square kilometre to protect wildlife. reckless behaviour. But in B.C., no fnes, no restrictions, no Earlier this year the B.C. Wildlife Federation released a guidelines for companies to avoid logging and endangered report noting the following. “While the human population, species, and 19,000 cubic metres logged. resource extraction and threats to habitat and wildlife have My question is to the Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural increased signifcantly, the funding and capacity to support Resource Operations and Rural Development. How, in 2019, natural resource management have declined. Tis is the is his government allowing the continued logging of the opposite of other jurisdictions and the opposite of what Brit- whitebark pine despite its endangered status? ish Columbians expect.” I note the very powerful statement given by the member Hon. D. Donaldson: I appreciate the question from the for Fraser-Nicola about the decline of steelhead as an member. I believe she has two aspects to that question: one example of what we are seeing right now in respect to around public lands and one around private lands. endangered species around this province. 10586 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

My question is to the Minister of Environment and Cli- land who depend on transit to go to work or comply with mate Change Strategy. Without provincial legislation dedic- their responsibilities. Tat’s why we’re asking both sides to ated to protecting species at risk, how does he intend to mit- get back to the table, because that’s where the best negotiated igate the loss of wildlife in our province, particularly at a agreement will come from. time when climate change has already begun to alter entire We will stand for a fair and free collective bargaining pro- ecosystems? cess, and that’s what I’m encouraging both parties to use and utilize. Tey’re both mature when it comes to collective Hon. G. Heyman: Tank you to the member for the ques- bargaining. Both have a history of collective bargaining and tion. concluding collective agreements numerous times without One of the reasons that species-at-risk legislation is any outside help. Tat’s where the best collective agreement included in my mandate letter — and the reason that I have will come from — at the bargaining table, not in this cham- assured the member and the public in the past that we are ber, not in the media. working on it and that we intend to bring it in, in this man- Tat’s why I think the opposition should join with us date — is what we inherited afer 16 years of failed promises and encourage both sides to get back to the bargaining from the former government. Te failure by the former gov- table, because that’s where the negotiated agreement will ernment to take any meaningful action has meant that it has come from. become harder to protect B.C.’s ecosystems and species, and we’ve created instability for Indigenous communities and Mr. Speaker: Te member for Abbotsford West on a sup- industry. plemental. We have, for the last two years, been consulting broadly with communities, with Indigenous nations — over 120 M. de Jong: Te minister operates under the ambit of Indigenous nations and 22 regional sessions — to work legislation that provides him with a set of tools. Tey are together with communities, industries, stakeholders, Indi- a limited set of tools by which he can provide assistance genous people and environmental scientists to fnd a path and guidance and encourage the resolution of disputes that forward to protect B.C.’s species at risk in a way that works are going to impact and have already impacted hundreds of for everyone. We take that seriously. We’re continuing to thousands of people. work on that. We have and will continue to take action in the He has just dismissed as stupid the use of one of the basic meantime as we try to get the legislation right. tools that governments and labour ministers have utilized We did, for instance, sign an agreement with Canada and for decades. He has dismissed it as a stupid idea. He sits the Syilx Okanagan Nation to establish a national park in the here, and he says to the opposition and others: “Join with us.” South Okanagan–Similkameen. Tis is a region that is home When a suggestion is made to him, when a legitimate ques- to 11 percent of Canada’s species at risk. I look forward to tion is put to him, on behalf of the British Columbians that working with the federal government, with the nations and are going to be inconvenienced — “Will he appoint a medi- with British Columbians to bring these kinds of protections ator?” — he says to the questioner: “You’re being stupid.” to this irreplaceable region and others throughout British Why should British Columbians have any confdence in a Columbia. labour minister who has such a poor grip on the tools that [2:25 p.m.] are available to him to try to resolve a labour dispute in Brit- ish Columbia? And will he apologize for using that kind of LABOUR DISPUTE IN TRANSIT SYSTEM language?

M. de Jong: I’ve sat in this chamber with former Social Hon. H. Bains: Like I said, we need no lessons from that Credit labour ministers. I have sat here and listened and side of the House when it comes to collective bargaining. No debated with a number of NDP labour ministers. I have, suggestions. obviously, worked with labour ministers that were B.C. Lib- I will remind the House. It was that side, when they were erals. I was one of them. I have never, ever heard a labour on this side of the House, who were actually engaged in minister of any political stripe dismiss the suggestion of the provoking strikes. Tey were engaged in provoking strikes appointment of a mediator as being stupid — ever. by tearing up collective agreements, throwing thousands of Would the minister stand in the chamber and explain to workers on the street — tearing up a collective agreement British Columbians, who are going to be at their wit’s end that was legally negotiated for decades by these workers. So because of a labour dispute, how it is he feels it’s appropriate they are not in a very good position to suggest anything to characterize the appointment of a mediator, who might when it comes to collective bargaining. help bring settlement to that dispute, as being stupid? [2:30 p.m.] We are serious, and we are going to respect the free and Hon. H. Bains: I said this before. No one likes to see dis- fair collective bargaining process. We are allowing both ruptions of services that we all depend on. It hurts families. It parties to get back to the table. We encourage them so that hurts workers. Tere are so many people in the Lower Main- Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10587

they can have a collective agreement and so that the people would go up. Tere would be higher risks related to who are dependent on the transit are not inconvenienced. scheduling and completion dates. Can the minister for once, just once, stand up in this Interjections. Legislature and tell British Columbians: did she receive that advice? Did she, the Premier and the government decide to Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. move on anyway, knowing that the ultimate payer of the extra cost would be the taxpayers of British Columbia? COMMUNITY BENEFITS AGREEMENT AND ADVICE TO GOVERNMENT Hon. C. Trevena: I fnd it very, very difcult to take that this opposition tries to preach to us, as government, on the S. Bond: Yesterday we learned about a confdential cost overruns and the potential risks of infrastructure pro- briefng that was provided to the government earlier this jects, when their history — their history — is one of over- year regarding the proposed union benefts agreements. runs. Here’s what the briefng note said about the agreements: “High risk and incompatible with fxed-price and fxed- Interjections. schedule contracts.” Can the minister stand up today and tell British Colum- Mr. Speaker: Members. bians specifcally what she and the government were told about the possible consequences of moving forward with a Hon. C. Trevena: May I just remind the House that when proposal to look at union benefts agreements? they were government, we saw overruns of up to 82 percent — 82 percent. We are very confdent that the community Hon. C. Trevena: We have the utmost confdence in our benefts agreements are going to be serving the people of community benefts agreements. Tat’s why we’re proceed- British Columbia very well. We have seen the outcome. ing with them on projects in the transportation sector, and We’ve seen the opposition, when they were in govern- we’ll be looking at them for other infrastructure projects. We ment, as well as having massive cost overruns on infra- believe that when we build B.C., when we build the infra- structure projects, use the same model. Tey used the structure of B.C., we need to invest in the people of B.C. same model on, if I might go through them, the Brilliant Tis is something that the opposition…. Te opposition, dam, Revelstoke unit 5… in 16 years of government, never realized that you have to invest in people. Tey have lef us with a huge skills shortage, Interjections. a huge skills gap that we are addressing through community benefts agreements. We’re going to be making sure that Mr. Speaker: Members. people get trained and ensure that they get to be able to com- plete their red seal apprenticeships. Hon. C. Trevena: …Waneta dam expansion. In 2015, We’re very comfortable with moving ahead with com- Mica unit 15, Mica unit No. 6 and the John Hart generat- munity benefts agreements. We’ve been very clear with ing station. people about it, and we will continue to proceed with our [2:35 p.m.] community benefts agreements for the best outcome for Tis is a system that has been used for many, many everyone in British Columbia. years. We are very happy with that system, and we’ll be continuing to use it. Mr. Speaker: Te member for Prince George–Valemount on a supplemental. J. Tornthwaite: Well, from that answer, it appears that perhaps the minister has not even seen the briefng note. S. Bond: Well, I think it’s up to British Columbians to Let me remind the minister what this briefng note said decide about whether or not the union benefts agreements about her community benefts agreements, which are really are actually a good thing. What’s critical to that is, actually, union benefts. Te community benefts agreements have this minister standing up and answering a straight-up, risks staying on time and on budget and risk cost overruns, simple question. because all of these union rules are more expensive. What We asked the minister: what advice did this minister, that means is that…. Te Premier’s friends-and-insiders deal this government and this Premier receive about potential means workers are denied opportunities, B.C. contractors consequences? Let me help her out. Here’s what the brief- lose work, taxpayers pay more, and the public gets less. ing note said. According to the briefng note, the govern- Now, apparently, this minister is denying that this briefng ment was warned that if the Premier insisted on a back- note exists. I quote again: “High risk, fewer bidders and room deal, it would result in fewer bidders and higher higher costs.” costs. I think British Columbians deserve to know that Will this minister tell us whether or not she’s seen this this government got advice that the cost of those projects 10588 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

briefng note, and if she has, will she please table it for the 2013 and 2017, he managed a winning campaign for me in House? Stikine. Would the House please welcome Bill McBain.

Interjections. Petitions

Mr. Speaker: Members. Members, the Government T. Stone: I have the pleasure of presenting a petition with House Leader has the foor. Tank you. 282 signatures from the people of Kamloops who support a series of changes to the Mineral Tenure Act in regulations. Hon. M. Farnworth: I’ve listened with interest to the [2:40 p.m.] questions from the opposition, and what’s been really interesting is that they go: “Have you heard? Have you Personal Statements heard?” Well, we heard loud and clear from families and parents across this province who want more opportunities WITHDRAWAL OF COMMENTS for their kids than they ever saw when that side of the MADE IN THE HOUSE House was in power. We heard from parents who wanted their daughters to be Hon. H. Bains: During question period, I used language able to have skilled apprenticeship training. Tat’s what com- that was not parliamentary. I withdraw my remarks. munity benefts are about. We heard from First Nations who want to see their kids have the opportunity that other famil- Tabling Answers ies have — that they can get skilled trades. Tat’s what’s hap- pening under community benefts agreements. Hon. C. Trevena tabled the answer to question 2 on the Tey want to know that when public money is being order paper. [See Votes and Proceedings.] spent, it benefts British Columbians frst, not some vested interests. It provides opportunities for communities large Orders of the Day and small, families right across this province. Tat’s how the dams in this province, under W.A.C. Bennett, were built. Hon. M. Farnworth: In this chamber, I call continued Tat’s what we’re doing to build opportunity for the future of committee stage debate on Bill 37, Financial Institutions young people in the province of B.C. Amendment Act. In the Douglas Fir Room, Section A, I call continued committee debate on Bill 41, UNDRIP, the United [End of question period.] Nations declaration act.

Tabling Documents Committee of the Whole House

Hon. D. Eby: I have the honour of tabling before the BILL 37 — FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS Legislative Assembly the 2018-19 annual report on the oper- AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 ations of the gaming policy and enforcement branch. Te (continued) annual report has been submitted to me by the general man- ager of the gaming policy and enforcement branch, and I’m Te House in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on tabling this report before the Legislative Assembly as Bill 37; J. Isaacs in the chair. required under section 29 of the Gaming Control Act. Te committee met at 2:43 p.m. Petitions Sections 45 to 48 inclusive approved. Hon. C. Trevena: I have a petition with 2,528 signatures from Citizens for Quality Health Care about lab services in On section 49. the north Island. S. Bond: Good afernoon to the minister and her staf. Hon. D. Donaldson: I seek leave to make an introduction. Looking forward to continuing the discussion on the bill. We worked our way through yesterday, where we managed to Leave granted. agree on an amendment, which was a good-news story, and we’re working our way toward another one, I believe. Introductions by Members Section 49 is a section that actually talks about investigat- ory powers. I’m wondering if the minister can clarify wheth- Hon. D. Donaldson: I see, in the gallery, that a friend of er or not this is an expansion of investigatory powers or mine has joined us — Bill McBain. I owe a lot to Bill. He whether it’s a clarifcation of those powers. was my campaign manager. He’s batting a thousand. In 2009, [2:45 p.m.] Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10589

Hon. C. James: Tank you to the member, and welcome are obviously pieces that ft with credit unions and insurance back to committee stage again. Just for those who are watch- companies in this act. Certainly, the intent is similar. It’s ing, a reminder that I have Tara Richards here, my assistant meant to mirror what’s in other acts and to update — as I deputy minister; Kari Toovey, who is the director of fnancial said, modernize. Nothing has changed since 1996, when the and corporate sector policy branch; and Sally Reid, who is a act was put in place, when it comes to these pieces, so it’s senior policy advisor for that branch. updating and mirroring what’s in other acts. Te member asked about the investigatory powers. Tese are expanded investigatory powers. Te act has not been S. Bond: Tank you to the minister. In the minister’s ini- updated. Tese powers have not been updated since 1996. So tial comments, she mentioned…. it was updating them to be able to be more consistent with My colleague and I have talked a lot about the need to existing acts — for example, the Cannabis Control Act and modernize and update the language, and there’s certainly no the land title transparency act. Te investigatory powers are disagreement there. We just want to ensure that this isn’t an consistent with those acts. expansion of those powers. So while the language may be varied to ft the sector better and to ft the act more accur- S. Bond: Tank you for that. So perhaps the minister ately, I think what the minister has said to us, and I just want could, then, just give us an idea of how…. While this section to confrm, is that this doesn’t place these fnancial institu- is bringing into alignment the powers that will be in place, tions in a more rigorous or onerous position when it comes are there things…? to investigations. Could the minister just confrm that for us? Well, maybe we’ll take it from this perspective. Let’s take credit unions, for example. What kinds of investigations Hon. C. James: Yes, I think that’s a good way of putting would require these powers? Are there things that are new it. Tese aren’t special powers to go afer credit unions to the credit union sector that investigations would be or go afer insurance companies. Tese are investigatory approached in a diferent way? I’m assuming that during powers that are used in modern acts that provide oppor- the discussion around the bill and the feedback process, this tunities if someone isn’t in compliance and an investig- kind of discussion would have taken place. So maybe just a ation needs to occur. It gives the opportunity for those sense of when these powers would be necessary and if there’s approaches to be utilized. anything new that credit unions would be unaware of. Sections 49 and 50 approved. Hon. C. James: Credit unions are aware because this has been part of the consultation process, back and forth. So they On section 51. are aware, obviously, of the section. Why would you need, or what kinds of actions would precipitate, an investigatory Hon. C. James: I’ll move an amendment to section 51 power? It would really be anything that wouldn’t be in com- standing in my name on the orders of the day. pliance with the act. [SECTION 51, in the proposed section 218 (1), by deleting the text Market conduct, for example — a requirement around shown as struck out and adding the underlined text as shown: market conduct. Perhaps somebody is not compliant. Tere 218 (1) Despite any provision, other than section 44 (1) (b), (2), (2.1) and (3) of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy could be records, for example, that someone was keeping at Act, anAn individual or entity that creates, compiles or receives infor- home that would require someone to be able to access those mation or records under this Act or under an agreement referred to records. Preventing obstruction. Don’t destroy documents in section 219 or 219.01 of this Act must not, subject to subsections that might needed for an investigation. It’s really meant to fll (2) and (3) of this section, disclose the information and records.] in the gaps for any kind of investigation that would have to do with compliance with this act. On the amendment.

S. Bond: Tank you to the minister. When we’re talking Hon. C. James: Just to speak to the amendment because I about things like…? Te sections would include “Powers of think this is an interesting process. I think it’s helpful to talk entry,” “Warrant to enter residence” and “Powers on inspec- a little bit about why the section was in the act and why the tion.” Te list goes on. amendment is coming forward. [2:50 p.m.] Tis is a section that speaks about collecting information Would it be fair to say…? Could the minister tell us from fnancial institutions — insurance, credit unions. It’s whether or not the language is the same or similar to the oth- not unique to one or the other. Te regulator will collect er acts that she referenced? Is it really taking the same kinds information of all kinds for a variety of purposes, for their of powers that are expressed in other acts and simply trans- job as regulator, to regulate fnancial institutions. planting them into this one? Tere has been concern raised, and there are concerns raised, by the organizations that are regulated under this Hon. C. James: Te intent is similar, and some of the lan- act — credit unions, insurance companies — about sensitive guage is similar. I wouldn’t say it’s identical, because there information and whether there was protection for sensitive 10590 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019 information, because their information, when it goes to the sonal and proprietary — all of those kinds of things — there regulator, is accessible through FOI. Tere is protection in is a need to fnd balance. I think we also need to be fair in place. It’s not that there’s no protection. this chamber. You know, oppositions typically take govern- Tere is protection around utilizing the information for ments to task when the Ofce of the Privacy Commission- the purpose that it’s collected — for the regulator to use that er makes a recommendation and government ignores it. We information for the purpose it’s collected — but the freedom would be having a conversation of a diferent sort. of information does provide an opportunity for people to be Here we now see where the minister has listened to the able to apply and then access it, if it’s there. So we certainly, concerns of the Privacy Commissioner. On the other hand, in developing this act, felt that it was reasonable to be able that then raises concerns on the part of the fnancial insti- to protect that information, to put in place an override of tutions — in particular, credit unions. I think that’s to be the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, expected because, as the minister herself pointed out, she a revision — that’s what’s in the original act that we brought also remains concerned about the potential release of that forward — to be able to protect that sensitive information. sensitive information. [2:55 p.m.] As we consider the amendment, frst of all, I think that, Alberta and Saskatchewan both have overrides and pro- again…. I’m a strong believer in that’s how good legislation tect the information, so it wasn’t unusual for that to occur. is developed. Tere’s some give-and-take, and you try to fg- Tere were concerns, however, when the legislation was fn- ure out how to get the best public policy positions. So I think ished. And we’re working, as we do with each piece of legis- removing the override, while causing concern, also refects lation, as the member would know, with the Ofce of the an important need to listen to a statutory ofcer who says: Information and Privacy Commissioner. Tere were con- “Tis is pretty important.” I think we’re trying to fnd a bal- cerns that it was too broad. Te Privacy Commissioner felt ance here. that the override could set an undesirable precedent and that What this bill does, in this section…. It does authorize overrides should only be in very, very limited usage. disclosure in certain circumstances. I guess I would like the Because of that, because there was a disagreement with minister to…. She has alluded to it. But I think to bring some the ofcer, we’ve accepted the Privacy Commissioner’s comfort to…. Probably the Privacy Commissioner is feel- advice. Tat’s what the amendment does that’s coming for- ing better today. I would say the pendulum has now swung ward. It removes the override. But I think it’s important to where credit unions, in particular, are feeling concerned. note that we still believe that the work needs to occur to bal- What advice or response could the minister provide to those ance the need for information for the regulator and protec- credit unions about the concerns that they have? tion of sensitive information that comes forward. We think First of all, without an exception to the Freedom of Infor- that is the job — to provide that balance. We felt the override mation and Protection of Privacy Act, private information of provided that balance. Te Privacy Commissioner did not. an individual or a business could potentially be released. I So that’s a piece that we are continuing to work with the Pri- think we both agree on that. Will there be further dialogue vacy Commissioner on. also with the credit unions and the Privacy Commissioner, We’re bringing forward the amendment to remove the ongoing dialogue, to say: “Look, we understand the need to override, but that doesn’t stop the work. In fact, the work have a narrow scope when you’re talking about a complete will continue. We have received information from the regu- override, but on the other hand, I think there’s a legitimate lator with concerns. We are certainly collecting that inform- concern about the release of sensitive information.” ation and continuing to work with the Privacy Commission- Can the minister just give us a sense of how she sees the er around if there is another way of being able to protect that next steps taking place when there now is concern on the information that meets the Privacy Commissioner’s require- other side of the equation? ments around the act and would meet the privacy issues for [3:00 p.m.] credit unions, I think it’s important to note that the information that Hon. C. James: I think the most important piece in all of they provide now will continue to be protected under the this is that the protections are in place under the act. Protec- existing rules that are in place — the rules that say it can tions are in place about protecting the privacy and the infor- only be used for certain purposes. But it is important, mation that comes. Proprietary interest is part of that. again, to note that it can be overridden through the Free- Tat does, again, give some comfort that the private busi- dom of Information Act. We continue to be concerned ness information is protected, which is a legitimate concern about that, and we’re going to continue to work with the that is coming forward. Someone would have to go through Privacy Commissioner to see what solution can be found an appeal of that protection, so there is another step in there that meets both needs. as well. So those steps are in place. I think, understandably, the credit union or insurance sec- S. Bond: I know that my colleague and I particularly tors feel that still leaves them at risk if someone did appeal appreciate that explanation. It is defnitely a precarious bal- and if the Privacy Commissioner ruled in favour. Tat is ance. Any time you’re dealing with information that is per- possible. Tat certainly is possible through the act. Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10591

Te protections are in place, and we are continuing our previous governments, with the current government. I think discussions. We have, obviously, had discussions with credit that’ll continue to happen, but that’s the push-and-pull that unions and insurance companies. We’ll be bringing that is a healthy part, from my perspective, of having an ofce of information to the Privacy Commissioner. I’m sure they’ll be privacy in place. making their voices heard as well. We’ll be continuing the work and to look at: is there another amendment or is there S. Bond: And certainly, as I mentioned earlier, I would not another way of putting protections in place for this sector so and don’t intend to endorse the minister not responding to that they feel comfortable? a concern at the Ofce of the Privacy Commissioner. It’s a I think the work is ongoing, the voices are continuing to pretty important expectation. In fact, we, as the legislators be heard, and we’re working closely with the Privacy Com- on the opposition bench…. One of our questions would be: missioner. “Have you talked to the Privacy Commissioner and what is the perspective there?” So I think that it was a reasonable S. Bond: In order to provide some context and maybe…. reaction to the Privacy Commissioner’s concerns. You know, this is for insurance companies and credit unions Perhaps the minister can just walk through this with us, alike. I mean, I think that circumstance…. If we look at the because we did receive a couple of specifc concerns about overarching responsibility of the Ofce of the Privacy Com- what the amendment might make more complicated. In par- missioner, whenever a review is done, there is the option for ticular, I’m speaking about the Credit Union Association. the Privacy Commissioner, not just in this sector but in oth- Tere was a concern expressed that FOIPPA might discour- er areas, to do exactly this. age information-sharing between the regulator and the Could the minister confrm that this actually aligns with newly created risk management committees. the responsibility of the Privacy Commissioner to balance Tat’s in section 22 of the legislation’s amendment to the need for transparency and…. Hence the concern with section 135.1 of the FIA — extraprovincial credit unions the override, which I think was a legitimate concern — that and other regulatory bodies. So a sense of: is it going to it would simply be a blanket exemption. I think there was a cause reluctance or concern or discourage information- legitimate concern there. In fact, we would have been having sharing in general? I’m wondering if the minister could a diferent line of questioning had the minister not decided just comment on that. to provide an amendment. I think, perhaps, one of the messages we would hope to Hon. C. James: Te member has identifed exactly why send together is that this is not an unusual practice. Tis we believe the work needs to continue. We believe that that’s is how the Privacy Commissioner functions, in terms of possible, that in fact people will be reluctant to share infor- making a decision to review the information very carefully mation if they believe that it could be overturned by the pri- and then, afer doing that consideration, having a look vacy act and the Privacy Commissioner and their informa- at it, very thoughtfully deciding if there is going to be a tion could be released. release of information. I think that it is a genuine concern. It’s exactly the reason To put it in context, it happens elsewhere, not just in this that we feel that the work has to continue. If the override was act. Could the minister confrm that? too broad, then let’s look at how we can narrow that down, [3:05 p.m.] but how we can also provide that protection. It’s critical to be able to have that information. It’s critical for the regulator to Hon. C. James: Yes. Tis is a usual process. It is up to the be able to have that information. Te regulator has written Privacy Commissioner. It’s part of the mandate of that ofce to us expressing that concern. So that’s exactly the reason we and the ofcer who is in there, the Privacy Commissioner, to believe that the work needs to continue. go through this process and, from their perspective, be able to look at that balance of protection of privacy and public S. Bond: Tank you to the minister. I would certainly con- access to information. Tat’s exactly the role and the job. cur. When we’re looking at trying to be more transparent I think, as the member has pointed out, it’s also the job and look at the management of that information, the last of the elected ofcials, based on the information that’s out thing that we want to do is have this appear to be a barrier there, to put their best foot forward when it comes to balance where people simply don’t share information anymore. I as well. I think that all of us in this House try and fnd that think that is something that we need to think about. same balance between the privacy of personal privacy and I think that the other thing…. I think that the ongoing business privacy, compared to access to information, and work is very important. I have one other area I want to can- then if there’s a disagreement, to work through that. vass ever so briefy, but I want to just check and see. It’s been I hope, as the member will see, that’s what the amendment a while since I’ve had to deal directly with the Privacy Com- is put forward for — to provide the opportunity to have that missioner’s ofce, though I remember that work well. worked through, to be able to fnd that right balance that’s Is it within the mandate of the Privacy Commissioner, for going to meet the needs of both parties. We’re not always example, to now, having seen the minister and the govern- going to agree. Tis has come forward with other acts with ment respond by saying, “Okay, we understand that the over- 10592 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019 ride is too broad…”? Is there a willingness to have the con- the scope being too broad. Tere is going to be a reaction versations that are necessary to provide certainty to the sec- to that as well. tor as well? Will the minister commit today to continuing her engage- [3:10 p.m.] ment, which has been signifcant, with insurance companies Is there a sense that the ofce will participate in that ongo- and credit unions to make sure that there’s a higher degree ing work that says: “We understand this is very sensitive of comfort, as best she can? I mean, ultimately, she’s not information”? People and companies want that protected. the Privacy Commissioner. But there is an understanding of We want transparency, but we also want to protect that per- the anxiety that’s been created by now moving away…. We sonal information and information that might impact credit had an anxious Privacy Commissioner. Now we’ve got an unions and insurance companies. anxious sector, and we have to fnd our way sort of up the Is there a willingness, and is there space within the man- middle there. date of the Privacy Commissioner’s ofce, to actually have I’m certain I know what the answer will be. But I think it’s those discussions, to look at…? Tere are some concerns out important today for credit unions and insurance compan- there. What can we do to help to alleviate those concerns? ies to know that the minister understands their concern and, certainly, will engage with them as the next steps related to Hon. C. James: We’re having all those discussions with this section unfold. the Ofce of the Privacy Commissioner. I think it’s import- ant to note, back to the role of the ofce, that the role of Hon. C. James: Yes, certainly. I have regular meetings the ofce is always to, on each individual case, make those with each of those sectors, certainly with the credit unions. decisions. I don’t think we’d get a blanket letter, for example, In fact, I know we’ve got one booked for January. I know it’s saying, “Tis is privacy information, and we’re protecting it,” gone on the calendar already. So there would be a very short because it would take away the role of the Privacy Commis- time period between the legislation and the opportunity to sioner to make those judgment calls around each appeal that be able to have those discussions and ensure that their voices came forward. are being raised. I don’t want to leave the impression that that would be the kind of direction that I believe would be possible, Amendment approved. because I don’t think it would be. I think that would take away from that role. But I think the opportunity to have Section 51 as amended approved. a conversation about: where is the balance from the Pri- vacy Commissioner? Where does it tip, and where do we Sections 52 to 56 inclusive approved. believe that it would be there? We certainly are having those good conversations and On section 57. bringing the perspectives forward of not only the credit uni- [3:15 p.m.] ons and the insurance but also the regulator and the reason the regulator believes this is important and why the informa- S. Cadieux: Tis section allows for council members to be tion is important to gather. Tis isn’t simply gathering infor- paid salaries and expense reimbursements. Can the minister mation for the sake of information. Tere are some very val- explain to us what that structure will look like or what the id reasons, when it comes to regulation, to be able to have intent is there, why it’s being changed? this information. So presenting all of that information, as well, during these discussions. Hon. C. James: Tis is simply an update. Members right now are being remunerated, but nothing has changed since S. Bond: Tank you to the minister. I think that’s a pretty 1990. So this will simply mean that they will follow the rules pragmatic response. I don’t think we could guarantee those that are laid out by Treasury Board for agencies, boards and things. I would concur that the dialogue and the individual commissions. circumstances do matter. Te other relationship — and relationships matter in this Sections 57 to 59 inclusive approved. work — and the other area where I know there’s been expressed concern is that the amendment…. Without the On section 60. sort of exception to FOIPPA, there could be additional strain between, say, for example, credit unions and the regulator, S. Cadieux: Tis section establishes the rule-making because information could actually be released without an powers for the Insurance Council specifc to restricted insur- exemption, without an exception. So I think that’s another ance agents. We talked briefy about those yesterday in an important dynamic that we need to pay attention to. earlier section. Just for more clarity, could the minister As this work progresses…. Again, we recognize the del- explain what sort of insurance is contemplated under this icate situation here. We know that it is important when the section and what is not? Ofce of the Privacy Commissioner is concerned about Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10593

Hon. C. James: Te specifcs are still to be determined, decide, at what point, that something needs to be brought but the kind of insurance you’re looking at under this section into this section? would be, as we’ve talked about previously, credit insurance, travel insurance, warranty insurance. Hon. C. James: Te framework will be set out in regula- I think we lef our discussion yesterday saying that car tions. Tat goes through cabinet. Tere’s a check and bal- insurance through ICBC was separate and apart from this ance there. act, and a question around whether private car insurance I think that travel insurance is a really good example of would also be separate and apart from this act. It is. the magnitude of, perhaps, the cost — not necessarily the I wanted to clarify that from a question that came up yes- cost of buying travel insurance for one day but the cost of terday. someone who could have a catastrophic something hap- pen on that one day, which could be a very large insurance S. Cadieux: With respect, then, to warranties, is there a payout. lower threshold to where this applies or doesn’t, or an upper Tat’s really what we’re talking about when we’re talking threshold at which time this does apply? Te reason I ask about magnitude. It may not be the cost. You may be out — obviously, curious. When you buy a new iPad at Lon- the $250 on an appliance you bought, but the cost of a huge, don Drugs or Best Buy, you’re ofered insurance protection, catastrophic health care accident, for example, could have a extended warranty on that product, not from the company huge payout. So it may not be the cost of the insurance itself. but from the store. Could this potentially reach into that It may be the cost and the risk of the payout that might be level? Or is there a set threshold at which this applies? there. Tat would be set out. [3:20 p.m.] Certainly, rules, if rules are made…. Tis talks about the regulations, setting out the regulations, but, again, if it’s rule- Hon. C. James: As we’ve talked about previously, this making, as we talked about before, it has to go out for con- really is looking at larger products. In fact, some of the sultation. Tat is required. It has to come for the minister’s other jurisdictions, when they’ve expanded and looked approval. So there are lots of checks and balances that are at including these kinds of products, have actually put a built in there that are going to be critical to developing these threshold in place. new regulations and the new structure. Tat will be part of the discussion as the specifcs are [3:25 p.m.] worked on — whether we want to go with that model and put a threshold. We’re not looking at the small warranty on S. Cadieux: With respect to this and/or — I guess, theor- a very small appliance or something, as the member well etically — other pieces, can we expect any sort of standardiz- points out, at a drugstore or a place where you buy some- ation when it comes to insurance wording? Is that something thing. We’re looking at larger products. But that may be a that we’ll be looking to regulate or look at? route to go — maybe the threshold, as other jurisdictions Again, obviously, here we are talking then about the big have done. pieces, those things that have potential real impact on an individual and on a company should something go wrong S. Cadieux: I think that the reason I’m questioning this is — travel, large purchases. We also know that this is an area because, of course, we’re putting in place the option to cre- where most citizens have a great deal of challenge under- ate rules outside of government with an agency that has got standing what they’re buying and what they’re not. I would authority once this act has passed. So the question, then, is: assume that the standardization of wording is somewhat big- how do we know they’re not going to reach beyond where ger than us, given that the insurance companies are ofen not they should? located here. When I look at threshold…. You buy travel insurance for Could the minister suggest what she envisions this section one day from a fnancial institution or travel agent, per- to look at? haps, if this is allowed. Or you could pay that same amount of money for an appliance or when you buy an iPad, for Hon. C. James: I think this is exactly as we talk about example. Tere’s a question here: when does it apply? When consumer protection or consumer education — precisely the does it not? Who’s going to be afected? reason that we’re looking at actually including some of these All of a sudden, are all of the sales people at London Drugs products. Currently they’re exempt from the licensing, so going to be told: “Well, now there’s a big training require- therefore, there isn’t any kind of requirement or discussion ment for you in order to sell this insurance, because, well, if about standardization. Tis gives the opportunity to have we’re going to require it on a threshold basis for travel insur- that conversation and to be able to look at standardization. ance, we’re now going to extend it to you”? Is there a process We certainly expect in the insurance industry, because by which there will be reach-out to potential organizations they go across provincial borders, that there will be a dis- afected well in advance of a decision that something needs cussion and, in fact, probably some standardization. Tis to be looked at? How will that come about? Who’s going to provides that opportunity that isn’t there if they aren’t licensed. 10594 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

Sections 60 to 77 inclusive approved. cern about — before they go through the ombudsperson step. I think the usual process that the member would be On section 78. familiar with is the process, likely, that will be put in place.

S. Cadieux: Can the minister confrm that the intent of S. Bond: Te minister may have anticipated my next set this section is to prevent banks from receiving insurance on of questions, then. If you look at the Saskatchewan model, their deposits with credit unions? it does have a three-step approach. It very much refects, I think, what the minister was just saying — that the credit Hon. C. James: Yes, that’s correct. union must address the complaint internally frst. Tey work on it frst; elevate the concern to the central institution. I was S. Cadieux: Again, just for clarity. So this ultimately, then, thinking about our time as school trustees and how we used ensures there’s no doubling up of the deposit insurance guar- to start with the teacher and work at those…. Te minister antees between fnancial institutions, in a sense? and I used to advise our parents to start locally and move up. In Saskatchewan, the three-step process is: start internally, Hon. C. James: Yes, that’s correct. elevate to the central institution, and then elevate to the OBSI. Does the minister contemplate a similar framework to Section 78 approved. that approach?

On section 79. Hon. C. James: Tat’s really part of the discussion that needs to occur with the credit unions, but I think that’s a S. Bond: Tis section talks about regulatory powers and usual kind of step to ensure that it really is a legitimate con- the Ombudsperson. In this section, there are regulations that cern and complaint and that it’s been tried to be dealt with at will compel membership in a complaint resolution organiza- the local level. Tat’s obviously the best solution, rather than tion. Tat’s contemplated in subsection (a). Can the minister elevating things up. Yes, that’s exactly the kind of process that confrm if this would be an Ombudsperson organization and is contemplated. whether or not the process itself would contemplate a two- [3:35 p.m.] or a three-step process? [3:30 p.m.] S. Bond: Subsection 79(g) talks about electronic insur- ance, basically. It talks about an electronic agent when you [R. Chouhan in the chair.] look at sub (g) and then (e.3), and then below that. When it comes to electronic insurance, can the minister Hon. C. James: Te details, the specifcs will be determ- give us any sense of the details or the regulatory approach ined in regulations. Tat’s still a discussion, and I think that’s that she envisions there? What kinds of requirements will be an important piece, actually. Tis is an example of where it’s made? I mean, there are some very clear things in terms of critical that the sector be part of these discussions and part documents and use and storage of information for people of the determination that is made. So those will be laid out who use an electronic agent but perhaps just a bit of a broad- in regulation. er discussion of the regulatory approach that will be taken Tis section impacts the credit unions because the insur- when we’re talking about the online provision of insurance. ance sector already has two ombudspersons. Tey have a Just for people who might be getting all excited about us choice of determining which organization they want to be talking about ICBC, we determined yesterday that that was under already, so no decision has been made right now. a separate entity. Tis is talking about other types of insur- Tat’s a discussion, as I said, still to come. ance, like travel insurance and all of the things the minister Tere is a banking ombudsperson, and that’s what other listed — completely separate from ICBC. But just a bit of a provinces have done. In Alberta, for example, the credit uni- sense of…. ons use the existing banking ombudsperson. It’s cost-efect- What does the regulatory regime look like when it comes ive, the structure is in place, and it’s experienced. Tat may to the online provision of other types of insurance? be the same route that the credit unions wish to go here in British Columbia, but again, that’s a conversation that is crit- Hon. C. James: Right now, interestingly, the act doesn’t ical to be had. No decision at this point has been made. defne, doesn’t specify, whether you can be on line or can sell Ten the member asked about one-step or two-step. If on line or can’t sell on line. the member is asking how things get to the ombudsperson, What we’re doing through this is ensuring that if someone which I think is important, they will be required to take their is utilizing on line and is moving in the online direction, concerns to the existing structure frst. Ten the ombud- in fact, exactly the same protections will be in place. Tat’s sperson would make a determination around whether those really what this is defning. It’s the same protections if you steps have been taken — and whether they should be sent went in and bought the insurance. Te same protections and back to the local organization that they are raising the con- regulatory regime that would be in place there would also be Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10595 in place if you were buying on line so that there isn’t a dis- On section 108. crepancy there between the two processes. S. Cadieux: Could the minister please describe how this S. Bond: I know that we’ve talked, over the course of a changes the issuance of shares, compared to what’s cur- couple of days, about how part of the purpose of this is mod- rently the case? I’m not sure what we’re actually changing ernization. I would assume that this is one of the key ways with this section. that we would be modernizing this act. I mean, typically, if you walk in, there are certain expect- Hon. C. James: Tis doesn’t change anything. Tis is a ations and a regulatory framework. We want to make sure practice that’s there already. Te defnitions were laid out, that as the sector, the industry — fnancial institutions in but there wasn’t a framework for issuing those shares. Tis general — moves more to an electronic process, there is a provides the framework. It isn’t any diferent than what is comparable and similar approach to regulation around that. being done now. It just provides the clarifcation in this sec- Is that a fair summary? tion. It doesn’t add any new pieces or take away pieces that are there. Hon. C. James: Yes, I think that’s a fair summary. You don’t want someone to be penalized because they happened Sections 108 to 110 inclusive approved. to buy it on line. You want to make sure that there are similar protections and similar regulatory regimes in place. On section 111. [3:45 p.m.] Sections 79 to 88 inclusive approved. S. Cadieux: I think we covered capital liquidity and those On section 89. issues quite a lot yesterday. But just for clarity again, this section anticipates that the Financial Services Authority will S. Cadieux: Te majority of what’s lef in the next bit is make its own rules respecting capital base and liquidity for fairly self-explanatory and follow-up, for the most part. So credit unions and, potentially, relax or eliminate restrictions just a few questions. that exist currently. Is that correct? On this section, are there any limits on the use of names under this section, or are credit unions generally fexible in Hon. C. James: Tis, again — as we’ve talked about in a their use of brand names? large chunk of the act and, particularly, this end section — [3:40 p.m.] really looks at a more modernized framework. It doesn’t spe- cifcally say that those pieces will be changed, but it does Hon. C. James: Tis section provides them with the abil- provide the framework so that if there were changes, they ity to do that but also within parameters. I think the sections could occur. before that talk about the fact that it needs to be clear they’re a credit union. If they are a subsidiary or a branch of another Sections 111 and 112 approved. credit union, they need to make that clear. Tis, again, gives them the fexibility to use the trade name, but it also makes On section 113. sure that consumers are clear about who they’re dealing with, which I think is important. S. Cadieux: My reading of this is that sections 113, 114, 115 and 116 essentially increase requirements for members Sections 89 to 104 inclusive approved. to submit or put forward formal resolutions or ask for or get special AGMs. Am I correct in that reading that it’s, essen- On section 105. tially, just a frming up of some of the rules around that?

S. Cadieux: What is the inclusion of unincorporated asso- Hon. C. James: Yes. Tis is, again, another piece of mod- ciations meant to accomplish? Could the minister give just a ernizing. Tese ratios and the membership haven’t changed, few examples of such groups that would be captured here? and the world of the credit unions has changed a lot since the 1990s. You have many more large credit unions than you Hon. C. James: Tis just allows, basically, a streamlining did previously. Tere’s been an amalgamation of a number of process for opening accounts for a number of associations. credit unions. So this just refects the change in membership Te member asked about examples. For example, it would be and, therefore, the change in percentages when you’re look- Girl Guides, Toastmasters, sports groups. Tis will stream- ing at members to be able to bring forward motions at gen- line the process for those individual groups and organiza- eral meetings, etc. tions to be able to be members. Sections 113 to 120 inclusive approved. Sections 105 to 107 inclusive approved. 10596 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

On section 121. Hon. C. James: With leave, now.

S. Cadieux: Can the minister suggest or provide examples Leave granted. of what sorts of contraventions are envisioned that credit unions could or would make that would require the Mr. Speaker: When shall the bill be read a third time? increased fnes under this amendment? Or are the fnes here just being modernized to align with other acts or standards, Hon. C. James: Now, Mr. Speaker. and in which case, which ones? [3:50 p.m.] Tird Reading of Bills

Hon. C. James: We’ve talked about the challenges of acts BILL 37 — FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS that haven’t been updated in 30 years. Again, these amounts AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 have been changed to be consistent. Tere are no new fnes. Tese are the same areas, but the amount has been raised to Bill 37, Financial Institutions Amendment Act, 2019, match, 30 years behind on fees. Yes, they’re consistent with read a third time and passed. not only other jurisdictions but other acts as well. Mr. Speaker: Tis House stands recessed for fve minutes. Sections 121 to 133 inclusive approved. Te House recessed from 3:56 p.m. to 4:02 p.m. Title approved. [R. Chouhan in the chair.] Hon. C. James: Tank you to the members for a very good discussion and a very good, I think, opportunity to be able to Hon. C. James: I call second reading of Bill 45, Taxation show people what good government can be, across the aisle. Statutes Amendment Act, 2019. With that, I’ll move that the committee rise and report the bill complete with amendments. Second Reading of Bills

Motion approved. BILL 45 — TAXATION STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 S. Bond: On behalf of my co-critic, we want to thank the minister and particularly thank her staf. We appreciate their Hon. C. James: I move that Bill 45 be read a second time participation in the process and the good work they do as now. public servants. We appreciate that very much. Tese amendments to two tax acts are aimed at reducing Again, thanks to the minister for what I think was a demand for products our government believes are harmful thoughtful and reasonable approach to complicated tax to British Columbians and that present particularly wor- policy. Not exactly the most scintillating debate, but I think it risome risks to the health of British Columbia’s youth. is part of what we do as legislators. I want to thank the min- Amendments to the Provincial Sales Tax Act, increased taxes ister for her time and also for her willingness to listen to the on vapour products and amendments to the Tobacco Tax concerns raised by my colleague, myself and the credit union Act raise taxes on cigarettes and other forms of tobacco. sector in particular. Her response was much appreciated. With this bill, British Columbia will be the frst province to have introduced legislation to increase the price of vaping Te committee rose at 3:52 p.m. using the tax system. I want to begin by putting this in the context of govern- Te House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. ment’s approach to vaping. I want to recognize, in partic- [3:55 p.m.] ular, the Minister of Health. He’s been hard at work devel- oping the vaping action plan for some time, and last week Reporting of Bills announced our government’s plan. Te Ministry of Health sees the PST increase on vaping products as a critical com- BILL 37 — FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS ponent of the 10-point plan to address concerns around AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 vaping. While the issue of vaping and particularly youth vaping Bill 37, Financial Institutions Amendment Act, 2019, has been steadily growing, it’s taken on a new urgency with reported complete with amendments. the kinds of cases that I know all of us have been paying attention to. In fact, the September notice report came out Mr. Speaker: When shall the bill be considered as repor- from our provincial health ofcer regarding vaping-related ted? illnesses. Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10597

I know there isn’t a member in this House who hasn’t well, by government and the Minister of Health for the kind heard the concerns that have come forward from parents, of work that he has put into vaping. I look forward to the from teachers, from grandparents, from youth themselves, member’s comments. who have been talking about the expansion that we’ve seen of youth vaping all across our communities. But we’ve also Deputy Speaker: Te member for Kamloops–South seen it in our classrooms, and we’ve seen it at home. Tis is a Tompson. [Applause.] very serious health risk. It’s a growing risk and concern that has to be addressed. T. Stone: Tere’s nothing like starting with a rousing Why does vaping matter? Well, in fact, normalizing vap- round of applause. ing puts our youth at risk for lifelong nicotine addiction. Te I am very pleased to be able to stand here today to take potential for a young person to actually start with a zero- my place in debate on second reading of Bill 45, the Taxation nicotine vape and then move on to the nicotine vapes and Statutes Amendment Act, 2019. I do appreciate the intro- then perhaps move on to cigarettes is a concerning trend and ductory comments of the Minister of Finance insofar as set- certainly a path that we have to address. ting some context here for the nuts and bolts which are actu- [4:05 p.m.] ally dealt with in this piece of legislation. With the passage of this bill, our government will increase Te bill, in and of itself, is quite a straightforward and the PST on vaping products from the current general rate simple, short piece of legislation, certainly compared to a of 7 percent to a new rate of 20 percent, efective January 1, number of previous bills that have been before this House 2020. Tis represents an early action in support of the broad- even just this week. But the context within which this bill er government plan’s objective to discourage vaping. and these proposed tax changes ft…. Te context of that On that same date, it will also become more expensive to bears a little bit of discussion here, I believe. smoke. Tis bill increases the tax on cigarettes to 29.5 cents Before I get too deep into my comments, I want to for a total of $59 per carton. It also brings the tax on loose acknowledge that I have been very appreciative of having tobacco, and other tobacco products that are not cigarettes tremendous support from every member of the B.C. Lib- or cigars, to 39.5 cents per gram. eral caucus, every member of the ofcial opposition, and We know the history in British Columbia. We know that many members across the way in government and with the tobacco taxes are efective at driving down smoking rates. Tird Party. We see it when we look at the numbers here in our province. With respect to the colleagues in my caucus, in particular, Tax increases, as we all know, are rarely popular moves. But I want to pay a great big thank-you to the ofcial opposition our government takes great pride, in fact, in having intro- critic for Health, the member for Kelowna–Lake Country. duced legislation to increase tobacco taxes in 2017, in 2018 I think all members of this House know that he takes very and now, if this bill passes, in 2019. seriously and works with a tremendous amount of passion High prices are also a very important tool in persuading and purpose in pursuing accountability, on the one hand, non-smoking youth and adults alike to stay away from of government priorities and commitments and progress on tobacco and vaping products. Youth are particularly price- health-related matters but also looks for opportunities to sensitive. Tat’s part of the reason, again, we’re bringing for- work across party lines, to work with members of the gov- ward this legislation. In fact, it does matter to youth when ernment in the advancement of good public policy. you take a look at pricing. [4:10 p.m.] Tese measures are aimed at reducing the consumption I’ll let the member go into more detail, perhaps, in his of vapour and tobacco products. Our government is taking remarks. I understand he may have a few things to say about these positive steps because we know the critical nature of this piece of legislation as well. the impacts of vaping, particularly on youth, and tobacco I will end this part of my remarks by simply saying that I itself on youth and adults. We know, also, the costs to not went to the member early on, the member for Kelowna–Lake only that individual and their family but the costs to our Country. We had a discussion about mutual concerns that health care system and the costs to all British Columbians. we had with respect to surging rates of youth vaping, and Tese costs are, in fact, shouldered by all British Columbi- from that day forward, I’ve had his support. ans. I know he’s had my back in supporting the eforts that We believe it’s incumbent on government to do everything were embodied in a private member’s bill that I introduced we can to be able to work on behalf of British Columbians and that were embodied in a tremendous amount of to ensure that health care services are there for everyone and advocacy, efort and energy that I and many other members that those services remain afordable for taxpayers. Part of of the ofcial opposition really advanced to try and raise doing that is ensuring that we’re doing the prevention work the profle of this issue, to shine a bright light on a growing to be able to keep youth from connecting with vaping. health challenge afecting many of our youth. With that, I’ll look forward to the discussion on second As I have spoken about many times in this House, I have reading. I know that the member has been quite engaged and three daughters. Tey’re 15, 13 and ten. involved in this issue and, I know, has been given credit, as Now, a couple years ago — a year and a half ago, possibly 10598 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019 even a year ago — I really had no idea what vaping was. It’s When you’re talking about nicotine levels that are through not an activity that I’ve ever tried. It’s not an activity that I the roof in a lot of these products, these vaping products…. was, therefore, really aware of. Our children, who have never smoked a cigarette in their I’m a dad, and my two older daughters are in middle lives, have never been exposed to nicotine in any other man- school now, up in Kamloops. Every opportunity that I get ner, are trying it out because it’s cool, trying it out because when I’m home, which is not as ofen as I would like it to be, there are aggressive social media campaigns telling them I insist on driving my girls to school. how cool and sexy and innovative this is. Tey try it, and Now, my youngest child is in grade 5. She doesn’t mind if they get hooked on that nicotine in very short order. We’ve I pull up to the front door of the school and give her a big got a problem. Tat’s harm. hug and a kiss. With my other two daughters, the protocol Te more I dove into this, I quickly realized that the stat- now is at least two blocks before or afer the school. Other istics are pretty jarring. Tere has been a 74 percent increase parents in the chamber know exactly what I’m talking about. in vaping rates amongst youth, grades 10 to 12, in Canada Tey would be mortifed to be seen with me. Of course, on this year over last year. Now, think about that: a 74 percent top of that normal mortifcation is the fact that I’m the MLA increase in one year. It’s to the point where today — the for Kamloops–South Tompson. estimates vary, the range varies — generally speaking, most I would drop of my two older daughters. In order to point research suggests that approximately 30 percent of all stu- my vehicle in the right direction to head to my ofce, I would dents in B.C.’s high schools in grades 10 to 12 are vaping. have to go around the back side of their school, and there Tat is a terrible, tragic statistic. was the vape pit. Now, again, I had no idea what the kids One company in particular which has become increas- were doing initially. I thought: “Are they smoking?” Tere ingly prominent in British Columbia is a company called would be up to 100 kids. Tese are kids that are 13, 14, 15 Juul. Tis is now, I believe, the world’s largest producer of years old. At 8:30 in the morning, on any given school day, vaping products. that vape pit was full. A story that a very well-respected journalist wrote for I started asking questions. I started asking other parents Reuters earlier this month actually was able to dive deeper what was going on. I went into the school — again, of than anyone ever has in understanding what this company, hours so I wouldn’t embarrass the girls, my daughters. I Juul, really did in its early days. Tey’ve only been around went in, and I talked to the principal and vice-principal for a handful of years. What they did to go from having no and a number of teachers in the school. I made some revenue to being a multi-multibillion-dollar company…. inquiries with the school district. I really wanted to under- If not the largest vape company in the world, they’re cer- stand what was going on, because I didn’t get it at that tainly No. 2. point. I quickly learned that what was happening at my Last year Altria, one of the largest tobacco companies, daughters’ school was happening at middle and high invested $12.8 billion for a 35 percent stake in Juul. Most of schools all over British Columbia and, increasingly, all the major vape companies are now owned by big tobacco over North America — surging youth vaping. companies. We’ll talk about more of that in a moment. Now, e-cigarettes and vaping products have actually been When you look at the history of Juul, as told by many around for quite some time, my understanding is for the bet- former managers, former executives, former employees — ter part of a decade. Te earliest e-cigarettes were actually people who couldn’t work for this company anymore developed as a smoking cessation tool. Te more I’ve learned because of many of the choices that this company made in about this, the more I’ve researched it, the more people I’ve its early days, choices that were mostly about targeting our talked to, the more people that have taught me what this youth to drive revenue for their company — it makes you industry is all about — how the products work, how we got nauseous. It makes you angry. As a parent, it makes you to where we are today — I have learned that you really have darn angry. to look at this as a spectrum. I’m going to quote a few sections from this news story, On the one hand, from a harm reduction perspective, again, with respect to the history of Juul. I want to share there is a role that I think we can all land on and agree is some of this context because the story of Juul is quite sim- important for adult smokers. Tere is a role for vaping and ilar to the story of many other large vape companies. Tey e-cigarettes to play in helping adult smokers come of of the very specifcally, early on, afer launching in 2015 — that’s traditional combustible cigarette, which is very harmful. I only four years ago — made a very deliberate decision to don’t think we need to canvass that at all. I think that’s gener- target youth as the key strategy to drive revenue for their ally understood by everyone in society to be a very danger- businesses. ous habit. Now, this particular news story, which was written by When you’re talking about 13-year-olds and 14-year-olds Chris Kirkham and was published or fled on November 5, and 15-year-olds — and, in some cases, even younger than 2019, had this to say about Juul’s decision to target youth. that — vaping, there is no harm reduction in that discussion. “Inside the company, the frst signs that Juul had a strong appeal Tere is only harm. to young people came almost immediately afer the sleek device went [4:15 p.m.] on sale in 2015, according to the former company manager, who Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10599

spoke on condition of anonymity. Employees started felding calls felt. Most of what I had been calling for was in the action from teenagers asking where they could buy more Juuls, along with plan in some form or another. I’d had numerous conversa- the cartridge-like disposable pods that contain the liquid nicotine” tions with the Minister of Health. I see a serious intention [4:20 p.m.] on the part of the government in this action plan to combat Its former manager goes on to say: youth vaping. “Company leaders also clearly understood the long-term beneft If there was any element of criticism from me on the day, of young users on its bottom line…. It was well-known that young customers were ‘the most proftable segment in the history of the to- a week ago, that this action plan was launched, it was that it bacco industry,’ because research shows that nicotine users who start really shouldn’t have taken this long. as teenagers are the most likely to become lifelong addicts.” [4:25 p.m.] And further: I had introduced a private member’s bill in this chamber “Following the product’s launch, it took nearly three years — and seven months ago. Now, my private member’s bill was not pressure from regulators and U.S. senators — before Juul, in April nearly as comprehensive an action plan as what was 2018, announced what it called a comprehensive strategy of measures announced by the Minister of Health last week, but I called to curb youth sales. By that time, a leading U.S. government youth to- for a ban on favoured vape products. I called for tighter re- bacco survey showed that more than three million U.S. high school students, one in fve, had tried an e-cigarette in the month prior. More strictions on retail sales. I called for tighter penalties for non- than a quarter of those vaped at least 20 days a month. Te latest compliance on the retail side. available data from the same survey, in September of 2019, shows yet I would note that those three items, in some form or another increase.” another, are contained in the action plan. Te government At that point, and this is only a couple of month ago, more didn’t go so far as to ban all favoured products, but there than one in four high schoolers, or just under 30 percent, are some signifcant steps on that path of seriously restrict- reported using e-cigarettes in the previous month. ing the number of favours that are available to anyone Tese companies very deliberately targeted our youth. — the weeding out of kid-friendly favours and the provi- Tey targeted our youth with fancy packaging. Tey targeted sion that favoured vape products, that narrower range of our youth with vape juice products with fancy names: Drac- favouring that will still be available for sale, will only be ula Blood, Fantasia, Nuke Heads, just to name a few. Tese available for sale in vape stores, where there is a require- favoured vape juice products were developed in a whole ment that you must be 19 years of age to enter. Tese are wide array of kid-friendly favours: mango, cotton candy, tighter retail controls. Tere are stifer penalties. Tere is candy foss, crème brûlée, bubble gum, gummy bear, and on enhanced enforcement. and on the list goes. I had also called for a ban on advertising and marketing. Now, these products weren’t just developed with favour- Tat was not provided for in my private member’s bill, but ing that kids would really be attracted to. Tey weren’t just certainly — till I was blue in the face — I was calling for that sold with names like Nuke Heads and Dracula Blood, and as well. I’m pleased to see that the government is moving in so forth. Tey weren’t just sold in fancy packaging. Tey the direction of banning advertising, at least where it can, in were also delivered to users in sleek, modern, compact deliv- provincial jurisdiction and provincial assets. ery devices that are easy to conceal, that look like little USB I have been calling for restrictions on nicotine levels. Tat sticks. Tey were marketed and advertised directly to our is a signifcant feature of this action plan. youth using really good-looking young models, famous act- I have been calling for a very serious commitment to ors and singers, very deliberate social media campaigns. education — awareness, prevention and support — not just Ten, of course, the clincher of them all. Increasingly, through a package of posters and buttons and pamphlets but these vape juice products were loaded with nicotine. Tat’s an actual program in every middle and high school that’s the fnal secret ingredient — not so secret — of these big delivered by youth to youth. vape companies, these big tobacco companies, to hook Tat, certainly, is how the Minister of Health talks about people and hook our youth on these vaping products. what is in the action plan that was launched last week. Tat’s When you stand back and you look at the incredible rise one of the areas I’m going to be paying very close attention in the use of vaping amongst our youth…. As I said, 30 per- to, moving forward, to make sure that the investment that cent in grades 10 to 12 are vaping on a regular basis. When has been suggested actually materializes. I’m a bit skeptical, you see it with your own eyes and when you understand at this point. Te language that the minister has used and the that research suggests very negative health consequences — government has used doesn’t go as far as the type of behavi- not just of the nicotine, which we’ve all known is the most oural, interactive, youth-led, youth-focused prevention pro- addictive substance on the face of the earth, but all of the gram like Preventure, which is a program I talk about ofen. other chemicals that are in vape juice — and when you see Preventure is a program that was developed in Montreal the rapid rise of people across North America getting sick a number of years ago. It’s a program that works by having and when you see, unfortunately, that dozens have lost their children self-report their personality style. It focuses on four lives in the United States, it was time for some action. key personality traits that make people vulnerable to addict- My compliments on the day when the government ive behavior, whether that be vaping or smoking or alcohol announced their action plan were sincere. Tey were heart- use or other drug use. Te four key personality traits that 10600 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019 make people vulnerable that this program focuses on are lenges this activity has created for our school district admin- impulsivity, thrill-seeking or sensation-seeking, sensitivity to istrators and educators.” We need action. anxiety, and hopelessness. Te board of education, school district No. 67, said: “As As I said a moment ago, the program works by having a district, we are seeing a dramatic rise in the use of vape youth discuss those behavioural traits with one another and products in students ages 13 to 18.” tell one another what they feel they might be susceptible to School district 41 in Burnaby said: “We’re urging the on a spectrum of each of those four personality traits. Tere School Trustees Association to advocate with the provincial are workshop sessions. Tere are follow-ups. Tere is part- government to make resources for youth on vape health nering that takes place. implications and cessation widely available and to revise cur- Of course, for this kind of interactive program, which…. rent resources and services for smoking cessation to specifc- By the way, where it has been piloted in a number of schools, ally include vaping in youth.” including most recently up in Vernon, it has been shown to, Te Quesnel school district said: year over year, drive down smoking rates, drive down alco- “Our school board, representing the communities of Quesnel, hol rates and drive down addiction rates. Tere’s a lot of Wells, and Nazko, strongly urges the province to ban favoured vape hope that if it was deployed and deployed well and funded — products, outline stringent retail controls and ensure a program of re- tail compliance is put in place. Online advertising needs to be regu- funding is a big part of a successful deployment — this pro- lated and particularly advertising on sites frequented by our youth. In gram could go a long ways, perhaps more so than almost any addition, our B.C. government needs to fund evidence-based preven- other component of this action plan, at really driving down tion programs in every high school and middle school in the youth vaping rates. province. We are writing to urge you to enact legislation that keeps our children safe and healthy. Our children deserve an immediate re- [4:30 p.m.] sponse.” I haven’t heard from the government that that’s what they Te school district in Kootenay-Columbia, school district really have in mind. I hope I’m wrong on that. But that’s one 20, said: area that I’m going to paying very, very close attention to, moving forward. “We have witnessed frsthand the surging rates of vaping in our youth, and we’re exhausted. We’re exhausted from having to deal with I introduced my private member’s bill last April. Tere the youth vaping in classrooms, in school hallways, on school buses was a signifcant rise of momentum that built up to a cres- and pretty much anywhere they live, work or play. cendo this fall of parents and teachers and school trustees “Despite our best eforts to educate youth about the real negative and health ofcials. You name it. People were beginning to impacts of vaping on their health and despite the fact that the health risks associated with vaping have become front-page news, the vast become aware of what vaping was, what its dangers are, and majority of youth believe that vaping is not harmful to them, or at how it’s impacting our youth. least not as harmful as smoking cigarettes. Te vaping industry has I want to acknowledge the city of Richmond for stepping been masterful at marketing their products to youth and by mes- up not that long ago and saying: “Notwithstanding what the saging that their products are safe.” provincial government is going to do, notwithstanding the Of course, we know they’re not. fact that the federal government has a role to play here,” School board 83, North Okanagan–Shuswap, said: which I know that the government of British Columbia artic- “Vaping is made much more appealing to young people ulates as well…. Te city of Richmond decided: “We’re going through the marketing and sale of supplies geared towards to ban advertising of vape products and vape companies on youth — i.e., favours and discreet devices. As partners in municipal infrastructure in Richmond.” So they are moving the care of the students of B.C., we call on the government forward with that. Tat’s good. of British Columbia to pass tougher restrictions on the sale of e-cigarettes.” [J. Isaacs in the chair.] Te Central Okanagan school district said: “Te topic of students’ use of vaping products is a concern of the board I applaud the eforts of West Kelowna and Coquitlam and of education, and we urge you to advocate for and support Lake Country for bringing forward resolutions at the recent tougher regulations on the sale of e-cigarettes and vapour UBCM convention in Vancouver in September, calling on products to minors, including banning the marketing of vap- the province to take action on vaping. ing products to children.” I received a stack of letters from school districts in every [4:35 p.m.] corner of the province, all taking time to put into writing not School district 42 in Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows said: just the frustrations that they’re all feeling increasingly but “Our school district takes youth vaping seriously, and our their absolute determination to do everything that they can, district is committed to doing the work at the school level to as partners in this, working with the province and working educate our students and families about vaping, and we hope with the federal government and others to drive down youth that the Minister of Health will further support that work by vaping rates. taking action at the provincial level.” Te Langley school district said: “On behalf of the board, I’ll end on this one. Tere’s a whole bunch more. School we want to express our concern in relation to the efects of district No. 53, Okanagan-Similkameen, said: vaping on the health and safety of our youth and the chal- “Te number of our children getting drawn into this unhealthy Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10601

practice is steadily increasing due to the eforts of vape companies have developed addictions due to their naivety and a lack of vigilance that deliberately target youth through seemingly innocuous vape fa- on behalf of regulators to this point? I’m speaking from personal ex- vours and savvy high-tech marketing. perience, as our daughter has developed an addiction, like many of “I therefore urge you” — it’s written to the Minister of Health — her peers. Tere are few, if any, supports for her to quit in a medically “to join the many jurisdictions across North America and to take safe fashion. immediate action by eliminating youth vaping in B.C. now and by “Prevention is great. It’s a fantastic step forward. But let’s not forget providing for evidence-based awareness, prevention and support pro- that there’s a whole cohort of youth who are facing a lifetime of addic- grams to educate our youth. Te health and safety of our youth is of tion.” paramount importance, and the time for action is now.” [4:40 p.m.] Again, that’s just a cross-section of feedback received, I couldn’t have said it better. Te words of this mom, on mostly in September and October, from school districts who behalf of her teenage daughter, really resonate. Tey refect were faced with a brand-new school year in September. a pretty common theme from a lot of parents who, I think, Tere hadn’t been any action taken to that point by the pro- have awoken to the fact that they, too, have kids who fnd vincial government. In just a very short period of time, a themselves in a place that they never, ever expected they steady, steady increase in youth vaping within their schools, would. You know, their kids don’t do drugs, don’t smoke and everyone is trying to do the right thing. Local govern- cigarettes, don’t so some of these other more, generally ments, school districts and lots and lots of parents have been speaking, harmful activities that, as parents, we all try and quick to call for action. steer our kids away from. With respect to the actions that the government is tak- We know kids are going to be kids. Youth are going to be ing…. As I said a moment ago, there is a tremendous amount youth. We were all there at one time. It might have been a of, I think, well-intentioned efort there to do as much as while ago or quite a while ago for some of us, but we were all possible to combat youth vaping. there. It’s why parents or authority fgures or teachers telling I did note that everything that we had been urging the kids not to do something is usually the surest way that they’ll government to do has been rolled into this action plan in one do what you don’t want them to do. It’s why those evidence- form or another. So we certainly appreciate that. based, peer-led prevention and awareness and support pro- I have, however, said that there are a few areas that grams are really important. we’re going to be paying close attention to. I’ve talked a I haven’t met any parents, to this point, who, if they were fair bit about education here today and the importance of thinking back two years ago, thought that they would be ensuring that the resources are made available to invest in dealing with a situation where they’re seeking addiction those true evidence-based prevention, awareness and sup- counselling and support, addiction therapies and addiction port programs in our schools. We need to make darn sure support for a teenage child of theirs who’s addicted to some- that the resources are there to help kids who are already thing called vaping. Yet so many parents fnd themselves, so addicted to nicotine and who need that support to come many families fnd themselves, in exactly that place. of of that nicotine. I had another set of parents come in and see me. Tis is Tere is a signifcant amount of wariness within the health going back about a month. Again, their daughter is 17 years community about the level of fnancial commitment that old and, by all accounts, an amazing student, a great ath- is needed to ensure that smoking cessation clinics will be lete, an active participant in 4-H. She started vaping last year, expanded, in some cases, to also welcome and support those the end of grade 11. Now she and her boyfriend have been addicted to the nicotine and vaping products and that the caught several times selling vape juice to much younger kids resources are made available to make those addiction pro- in the same school. grams available to people who have become addicted to vap- Nobody has really been able to come up with a solution ing. Again, we’re going to be paying close attention to that as to what to do here. Te principal and the vice-principal whole side of the equation. are doing what they can with the tools they have. Te parents I do know that one of the actions is an expansion of the have pulled their hair out trying to help their daughter. Teir QuitNow program. It will include a vaping component to it daughter has now moved out and moved in with the boy- moving forward. Tat sounds good. Let’s make sure that the friend. It all traces back to this vaping and being addicted to resources are there to actually help kids. vaping. It’s actually broken this family apart, and that’s the I’ve got a couple of stories from parents on the addictions underbelly of addiction, generally, as we all know. side of things. I had a mom who sent me an email the other Te last story I’ll share with you is one that’s very personal day, afer the action plan was announced by the government. to me. I have many parents and many youth who have come She starts it of by making clear that she’s appreciative of the to see me as their MLA. Tere are others that have come eforts of everybody — the government, the eforts I made to see me more informally because they’re family friends. on her behalf as her MLA, the eforts of, I think, all members When you have a 14-year-old girl that you’ve known since of this chamber, teachers, health professionals. the day she was born, who is a great student and a great ath- She says: lete, and she looks you in the eyes and says, “I’m addicted, “How is this action plan actually going to support teens who have and I don’t know what to do about it,” it breaks your heart. already fallen prey to the marketing of vaporized e-cigarettes and Tat’s why action was so critically important. Tat’s why 10602 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

I, with the support of all of my colleagues, have been work- government has done in the context of a broader cannabis ing so hard, so diligently, so purposefully over many months retail strategy, which is kind of failing right now. Lots of now to encourage and urge the government to take the concerns that people have around…. Have the price points action that they took last week. We’ve got to break this addic- reached a level in terms of cannabis retail sales such that tion. We’ve got to break this cycle of youth vaping, this rise of there’s more black market activity than less when this whole youth vaping. We’ve got to tamp it down before it’s too late, process started? So we’ll have some questions around there. before we lose a whole generation of our kids to vaping. Tirdly, back to my education point. If I sound like a We’re going to be paying close attention to the education broken record on anything here, I hope it’s this point. Tat is investments that we believe need to be part of the action plan that we’re going to make darned sure that every single penny moving forward. We’re going to be paying close attention to of this vapour products PST, every single penny that’s col- the vape juice favouring component of this. I still personally lected in this tax, be dedicated to prevention, awareness and believe — and I think many, many, many British Columbi- support programs to help break the surging youth vaping ans and certainly most of my colleagues, I would say, agree rates. Anything short of every penny going towards helping — that a ban on favoured vape juices would have been a bet- our kids not vape in the frst place — but if they do, to sup- ter way to go. But there are strong steps that are being taken port them to stop — will be a failure. As I said, I think the there, so we’ll see how that works. ultimate judge of this action plan, as ambitious as it is, as [4:45 p.m.] comprehensive as it is, will be the success or failure of the As with this entire action plan, as the ofcial opposition, education component in every middle and high school. as an MLA, as a dad, we and I are going to hold the gov- We’re going to want to know what the projected revenues ernment accountable for implementing this action plan as are from this level of tax, and we’re going to be looking for quickly as possible, for measuring the success of each of the assurances from the government that the dollars raised will diferent elements of this plan and for making sure that this be focused on those awareness, prevention and support pro- plan is properly funded — that education component. grams that are so critically needed. Te last piece that I want to touch on is the actual nuts With that, again, I will take this opportunity to say this. and bolts of the bill. I’m done with the context part of my [4:50 p.m.] remarks. Te provisions in this bill, again, as I said at the We found an issue here where I think we have demon- outset of my remarks today, are very straightforward. It’s a strated what most British Columbians probably want to see very short bill. It amends two acts to provide for, on one more of, and that is some collaboration and some cross- hand, a slight increase in the taxes on tobacco and tobacco- party working together. I said from the outset of my related products and then, on another hand, provides for an advocacy on this vaping issue that this was not about partis- increase in the PST from 7 percent to 20 percent on the sale an politics to me. I don’t believe it is to anyone in this House. of vape products, which is defned in this act. If we can’t check at the door partisan politics when it comes We’re going to have a whole bunch of questions to canvass to the health of our kids, when the heck can we? in committee. Tis was not an initiative that…. It certainly I acknowledge the eforts of the Minister of Health. I is not something that I’ve been advocating for, that I’ve been acknowledge the eforts of the government in their action suggesting the government pursue. It is, however, a compon- plan. ent of the ten-point action plan that was rolled out. I intend on being as much of a thorn in their side moving We’re going to be paying close attention to two aspects forward to ensure the speedy implementation of this action of this tax provision on vape products. One, we’re going to plan, the measurement of the success of each of the measures want to know what analysis was done by the Ministry of Fin- in this action plan and the funding that’s necessary to ensure ance on arriving at the 20 percent level. Tere’s a fne balance that the education that is needed for the success of this that has to be struck here — I know the Minister of Finance action plan is actually there. knows this well — between ensuring that that tax level on I’m hopeful that it’s not too late. Let’s not get this imple- a sin tax…. Certainly, it’s been the experience with tobacco. mentation wrong, moving forward. I’m certainly going to do We could talk for another hour or two about cannabis and my part to ensure that we actually get it right. the impacts of pricing on cannabis products. If that tax is set, you want it to be set just high enough to S. Furstenau: I’m happy to rise today to speak to the Tax- act as the deterrent that it’s intended to serve as, but not too ation Statutes Amendment Act and to follow on the com- high that it simply drives people to the black market. Tat is ments of the member for Kamloops–South Tompson, who a fne balancing act. It’s a bit of an art form. So we’re going has very passionately advocated for action on this fle on to want to understand, and we’ll canvass this with the Min- vaping for a long time. He has been an efective voice and an ister of Finance, what exactly that analysis looked like that efective advocate, and I appreciate the work he’s done. enabled the government, with confdence, to arrive at a 20 I want to start with some of the things that were brought percent PST rate for the sale of vapour products. up by that member — in particular, education, as such an We’re going to have some questions around cannabis important part of the solution to vaping and the rates of vap- vaporized products as well and what analysis or work that ing that we’re seeing, particularly amongst youth in B.C. and Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10603 across the country. I think that it’s almost like a perfect storm terday when I was speaking to Bill 38, the Climate Change or a perfect vacuum happened. Accountability Amendment Act. Our generation grew up as cigarettes became increasingly I do want to bring up another signifcant health issue stigmatized and increasingly recognized for their dangerous that we have facing our children today. Tere was a report health impacts. We were the generation that was fully edu- that has just come out in the last few days from Te Lancet, cated about the problem and the dangers of cigarette smok- a highly regarded medical journal. Tat report stated that ing, and we recognized that we didn’t want to be smokers children born today will face a lifetime of climate when we grew up. Te education aspect of that was very change–related health problems. Tese health problems efective. include low birth weight, neonatal death, lung problems, Ten I think to the flm that came out, I think, in the asthma, insect-borne diseases and vulnerability from 1990s. It was Te Insider, and it was a flm about the tobacco extreme heat, as a starting point. industry and the way in which they’ve operated and the Te member for Kamloops–South Tompson was saying description that they had for cigarettes, which was that a that the health of children and youth is a non-partisan issue. cigarette was a nicotine delivery system. I couldn’t agree more. We’ve seen the frst vaping-related ill- We now have a new nicotine delivery system on our ness in B.C. confrmed four or fve weeks ago. Within four hands. What we don’t have is any kind of preparation going weeks, the government comes up with a ten-point action into this quite sudden arrival of this new nicotine delivery plan. We are instituting new taxation. We are bringing in system, which came packaged in neon and pink and purple education. We are taking this very seriously. and came in favours like bubblegum and candyfoss, as was Yet the greatest threat to our children’s health is climate indicated. change, by a wide margin. On that, both of the other parties I, as a teacher, only became aware of this new nicotine agreed in the spring to a signifcant amount of subsidy to the delivery system in 2012, when suddenly there was a puf of LNG industry in this province, which is a contributor to cli- smoke in my classroom. I turned away, and I turned back, mate change. I think we need to wrestle with that. I’m asking and I had no idea what this smoke could have come from every member in this House to wrestle with that. or where it could have come from or where the smell came I so applaud the passion of the member for Kamloops– from. Tat was the frst indication of what was to come as a South Tompson for his capacity to speak to this from his tsunami, I would say, between 2012 and now. personal experience, from what he’s heard from parents and Te fgure just indicated by the member for Kamloops– educators, and from what he sees, the risks. I think we all South Tompson — a 74 percent increase in one year in vap- need to feel that same level of passion about the very serious ing use among youth — is a shocking fgure. My children risk that climate change poses to our children, to unborn are also…. One is going into high school next year; one is children and to future generations of children. I want us to in high school now. It is a signifcant problem in all of the take that as seriously and as passionately as we are taking this schools that young people have access to this nicotine deliv- issue, which deserves the action. ery system without the understanding or education of the I want us to wrestle. I want us to wrestle with where we’re impacts of nicotine, the high addictiveness of nicotine. at. I want us to recognize that, yeah, educators and parents [4:55 p.m.] and physicians are calling on us to make these changes to I remember, again, learning, when I was a teenager and ensure that youth are protected from vaping products and talking with my friends about this…. We were shocked to understand the risks that those pose. know that nicotine was as addictive as heroin. Of course, in Children and youth are gathering in the thousands and our minds, confating nicotine and heroin meant that you tens of thousands and, around the world, in the millions, didn’t want to touch either one of those things. I think that asking us, as decision-makers, to take seriously the risk that we now have a generation of children and youth that have climate change poses to them, their lives, their health and grown up without access to that kind of regular education their well-being in this biosphere that we depend on for all that we had the beneft of. We’re very much seeing the result of us to survive. of that now, and I commend the government, the ministers, [5:00 p.m.] for putting together this action plan. What I hope we can see is that we recognize the import- I agree with the member for Kamloops–South Tompson ance of action to protect the health of youth and children that education really has to be the central piece of this, on this issue. We have to very seriously ask ourselves: are we because education is how we change behaviours. It’s how we doing enough? Are we moving in the right direction on the get outcomes that we want to see. It’s how cigarette smoking greatest health issue in our existence as a species, and can we rates decreased to the rate that they had, as a result of that put the same urgency and the same non-partisan agreement long-standing education that had existed. on that issue as we are putting into this issue? Also, I think that when we are talking about this…. I I just wanted to, once again, bring these together. I do appreciate the comments about the health of our youth and commend the government. I commend the opposition. I am the health of our children. I spoke about this a little bit yes- glad that we’re approaching this in solidarity as legislators. I’m glad that we are doing this work. I look forward to seeing 10604 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019 the results, but I hope that we can recognize that if we want Jocularity aside on this, the member for Kamloops–South to take the health of children seriously, the greatest challenge Tompson obviously lives or has lived this issue with his in front of us is to act on climate change. family and his peers. When we had that conversation about who should go forward with this, the answer was very clear. N. Letnick: Tank you to all the members who have Tere’s nothing more that can lead to success in this place spoken to Bill 45 so far. I’m going to add a few comments. I than someone who has a personal interest and passion for an won’t repeat too many of the comments already committed issue, as we’ve seen with the member for Kamloops–South to Hansard, committed to the record, so that we can move Tompson. He defnitely has to get an award for…. along and continue debates on this and other bills that are I think, other than the Leader of the Tird Party, who is important, of course, to British Columbians. able to get his private member’s bills passed quite quickly In particular, I want to thank the Minister of Finance because he sits on the government side of this chamber…. for bringing forward the bill. She and her staf, of course, Tere’ll be some who argue he’s actually in opposition, but have done great work in a short amount of time. Tey’re to there’ll be others who argue he’s not in opposition. So we’ll be commended, and of course, the Minister of Health also just leave that as it may for now. Other than the Leader of the and his staf for researching the impacts of vaping on our Tird Party…. young people and coming up with what the government Since parliament has started, with the last throne speech, believes are the right approaches — at least at this stage, there are 29 private members’ bills on the order paper, three with opportunities for more action in the near future, of of which have been passed because they were introduced by course, we hope. the Leader of the Tird Party. All the other ones, other than Working with the member for Kamloops–South Tomp- one, have not been called up for any action, as opposed to son…. He, obviously, has been driving this issue for some the member for Kamloops–South Tompson’s bill. He intro- time — and, of course, municipal governments at UBCM, duced it on October 23 for frst reading, and here we are teachers and all kinds of other advocates wanting to make on November 20, doing second reading debate — less than sure that we stamp out, as much as we can, the nicotine a month from the time he introduced the bill to the time addiction that our young people are seeing through vaping, that we are debating second reading. So whatever magic the in particular. Older people as well. But we have to start member for Kamloops–South Tompson has, I think we somewhere. need to spread that out to a whole bunch of other bills. Speaking of starting somewhere, I want to explain, for I remember that in my frst year in this chamber, some ten the millions of people watching this at home, what actually years ago, I was looking at a private member’s bill to help frst occurred here, at least from my perspective. We all have dif- responders when they were exposed to blood products — ferent perspectives in life. From my perspective…. that maybe they could have caught some kind of contagious A few months ago, the member for Kamloops–South disease. It wasn’t until year 3, I believe, when I was given Tompson came to my ofce and said: “We have a problem. the green light by my own team to introduce the bill. Ten, It’s called vaping.” I’m from a diferent generation than the afer that period, it fnally got through the government. I was House Leader for the Tird Party, being that she’s 20 years a private member at the time. Te government decided to or more younger than me. I said: “What seems to be the bring the bill forward and actually get it passed. It passed problem? You know, you have these kids. Tey’re having a unanimously in the House. little fun. Don’t be such a party pooper, member for Kam- I didn’t have the magic that the member for Kamloops– loops–South Tompson.” He quickly schooled me on what South Tompson had in getting the bill so quickly brought the vaping issue was. forward to the House. Te magic that he has, of course, is in I decided to do a little research, as I like to do. I spent the support of the evidence. Te magic that he has is in the a few days putting together some academic journals on the support of the people that have children that are exposed to whole issue, and actually, the evidence at that time was on this increase in nicotine addiction. both sides. It wasn’t that clear-cut. But as time went on, the Of course, it has been said in this House before that the evidence became more and more very much, as we see today, Minister of Health is a collaborative minister. He works with the challenge that we have. all members of the House to solve problems. We’ll agree Another piece that the member for Kamloops–South many times on what is in the best interest of health care and Tompson has mentioned, but I think needs to be repeated, the people of this province. Of course, other times we may is that he has three daughters who are in the prime vaping disagree, but we do so in a civilized manner that in the end, age at school. My daughters are 34 and 25, and my son is I believe, is in the best interest of B.C. 31 now. I have a granddaughter that’s four years old. I’m not Why do I do that? Like many other topics that we address quite in that prime…. I hope not, anyway. Tat four-year-old in this House, I believe health care, if not very high up — wait till I get home and talk to her and her pre-kinder- there, is the most important topic to make sure that it tran- garten friends about vaping and that she shouldn’t do it. I’m scends diferent governments. Whether it’s a government serious. At some point, you have to have a discussion. that repeats into another four-year term or a government [5:05 p.m.] Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10605 that changes to another political party, we have to get health We would like to see, of course, banning of sales of fa- care right on behalf of all British Columbians. voured vapour products, limiting the supply and accessib- Anything that we can do to work collaboratively to ensure ility of e-cigarette products through stricter retail controls that the decisions that the government of the day makes and enacting tougher penalties for non-compliance. Tese actually are able to transcend that four-year election cycle, are things that, of course, are important and were included I believe strongly, as has been identifed by the member for in the private member’s bill. He also called for appropriate Kamloops–South Tompson, we have to do. resources in schools to increase awareness, prevention and Of course, it’s supported by the Leader of the Ofcial support to students. Opposition, as well, as you’ve seen in initiatives like the As you heard today, the member for Kamloops–South diabetes initiatives, the initiatives for measles and other Tompson, on behalf of the opposition, has asked for all of things that we’ve undertaken, including the review of the the funds that go into the black hole of the treasury from the Health Professions Act that…. Hopefully, in the near increase in fnes and from the taxes to go to education, to future, all three parties will have something to announce. make sure that we are able to stamp this out. So again, kudos to all members of this House that look at Te regulations from the government will restrict the health care as a distinct area for collaboration and consist- amount of nicotine in vapour pods and liquid to 20 mil- ency to the future. ligrams per millilitre and will require plain packaging for Just a few stats that I want to reintroduce into the record vapour products that includes health warnings. We also to make sure that people understand in this particular case. see public advertising on vapour products will be restric- Yesterday I got a report from the OECD, the Organization ted in areas where youth spend time, such as bus shelters for Economic Cooperation and Development. Tey’re show- and community parks. Te sale of vapour favours, other ing that people 15 years and older, 19 percent across the than tobacco favours, will only be allowed in age-restric- OECD…. Te average is 19 percent of people are addicted to ted shops. nicotine, to smoking in particular. Te increase in provincial sales tax is going to be applied [5:10 p.m.] from 7 percent to 20 percent. Tat will make us in B.C. In Canada, the rate is 10 percent. I imagine that in British the frst province in Canada to introduce specifc tax rates Columbia, we’re doing about the same, if not better than related to vapour products. Te new tax rate will go into that. If I remember correctly, the B.C. rate is below the Cana- efect on the frst of January, 2020. It will be applied to all dian rate, so we are doing well. Still, 10 percent in this coun- vaping devices, the substance or juice that is used within the try is too high. We have to get that 10 percent down to zero vaping device and any vaping product or accessory. I also percent, and one way of doing it is making sure that we don’t understand from the legislation that tobacco tax is proposed start the kids up by being addicted to nicotine when they’re to go up by two cents. young. Whatever we can do to make that happen, of course, In the end, again, we have to work with government to is extremely important. help those that are already addicted to vaping. We’ve seen a spike in vaping. From age 16 to 19, it’s up Te member for Kamloops–South Tompson brought a by 74 percent in the last year. Clearly, that draws attention very compelling letter from one of his constituents, saying: of all members of this House that something needs to be “How do we help my child, who is already addicted?” Tat’s done. A study found that cigarette smoking between 16- to something we’re going to have to work on together with gov- 19-year-olds in the same period increased by 45 percent. ernment to make sure that we have a plan to help those So we have to attack smoking, and we have to attack vap- people kick the habit. We thought initially that vaping was ing in particular. going to be used to help people kick the smoking habit, not We know we’re not alone in B.C. Numerous jurisdictions to help people get addicted to nicotine so that when they in North America have begun implementing restrictions, become adults, they start smoking cigarettes. What a bizarre including restrictions on vaping, advertising, purchase lim- world we live in sometimes, you know — all of these unin- its, outright bans of favoured products. Just this week alone, tended consequences. Michigan became the frst U.S. state to ban favoured e-cigar- We’ll work together with the government on making sure ettes as part of its eforts to curb youth vaping by preventing that we continue to move the yardsticks. Te government companies from using favours specifcally intended to hook has moved the yardsticks considerably, and I would say children on nicotine. Of course, our medical health ofcer, thanks in large part to the work of the opposition and, in Dr. Bonnie Henry, has been very vocal about this issue. particular, the member for Kamloops–South Tompson and Tese amendments, based on what the member for Kam- the Leader of the Ofcial Opposition, with his medical loops–South Tompson has proposed, have come quite a bit knowledge, as a past medical doctor. to what the member has proposed in his private member’s [5:15 p.m.] bill, introduced less than a month ago. It didn’t quite make it I would like, at this point, to again encourage the govern- all the way, but we’ll continue to work with government, to ment to do what it does always when it comes to health: to congratulate them on the work that they’ve done so far and continue working with us and, in this particular case, the to try to encourage them to continue the work. 10606 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019 member for Kamloops–South Tompson, who will be the they used to give you the cigarettes for your parents if you lead on vaping issues. wrote a little note. If the parents sent you with a little note, We will strive to stamp out nicotine addiction amongst they would give you cigarettes. So he fgured out how to our youth and continue to work to reduce nicotine addiction forge the notes and get the store to give him cigarettes. amongst adults so that our publicly funded health care sys- Of course, we passed legislation some time ago to make tem is sustainable, especially so that as those of us in this it harder for younger people to get vaping products already, generation, which is 20 years older than the generation of the but they’re still clearly getting them. Tis legislation will help House Leader of the Tird Party, start using the health care to reduce that, and it will help us get action. system more and more, we won’t have to worry about the I know my colleague from the Tird Party talked about costs associated with nicotine addiction. how we must act on a public health threat, the greatest Tose people who have been smoking and who are able public health threat facing children, as well, which is cli- to kick the habit will have a much better life in their senior mate change. I raise that because it’s another example of years, as they go through, if they’re not smoking. I believe where collaboration can lead us so much further. Our col- they know that. Tey just need more help so that they can laboration with the Green Party to develop the CleanBC come to the conclusion that they need to kick the habit. climate action strategy is another example of how we can We’re there for them for whatever it takes. get the best out of all of us. Tank you for allowing me to speak. Again, thank you to I wish we’d, in the past, done more of that in this House. all members of the House for what it looks like is going to be Hopefully, our government’s leadership in collaboration, unanimous support for this bill. in bringing people together and trying to get more out of each and every one of us for our constituents — indeed, S. Chandra Herbert: I really am excited today, because that’s why our constituents send us here — becomes a it’s yet another example of what can happen when you col- trend in this House regardless of parties, and we start to laborate. For many years, as I sat in opposition, I dreamed get beyond partisan diferences and rivalries and start to of the day we’d have a government that would look to try look at issues more ofen. and get the best out of every single MLA, if they have a [5:20 p.m.] passion, if they put in the work, if they put in the evidence, Te leadership of the Premier and the leadership shown to make change. by cabinet here in responding in this way I think shows that With this legislation, I’ve got to say it’s another example it can work and shows the benefts of that kind of leadership of our provincial government being collaborative, working as opposed to just attack, drag down and divide, which, for together, building change, because of advocacy from all a long time, has been the recipe in this place and the recipe members in this House. Addressing youth vaping and vaping we’re seeing around this world. in general…. Really, I want to thank the member from One discussion, I think, around the question…. We’ve Kelowna for talking about nicotine addiction and vaping as already, obviously, banned advertising to children of vaping the tool which is used to create nicotine addiction, in this products. Small side note. I’ve ofen thought we should just case. Nicotine addiction, of course, is the issue. Vaping is the ban advertising to children for most products. Maybe I’m tool. We’ve got to act, clearly. saying that now as a father of a 2½-year-old who, when they I thank the member from Kamloops for his advocacy. I see products advertised in stores and on TVs, can pick up thank the Minister of Health and the Minister of Finance, an interest. We see the great lengths people go to branding who I know were also aware of the issue and working on it as products to target young people to make them demand that well. I thank ministers and members across this foor who’ve their parents buy it for them. raised issues internally, behind the scenes, as well, to push A side issue, and I think it’s probably something that for change. would have to be dealt with more by the federal parliament, You know, people have already talked through about how but I’ve long also thought it wrong that children be focused this was thought to be a great tool to get folks of cigarettes on for advertising in general, given their impressionable and nicotine. In fact, it can be used just the opposite, to get minds and given how efective marketers have been at trying them onto it. to get at them, as we’ve seen with vaping, as we saw prior to One area that I’m really excited about is that money raised that with cigarettes — Joe Camel and the like. Clearly, I think through this increase in taxes on vaping, this tax on vaping, that’s a whole other series of topics that go beyond this bill, can go into public education, smoking cessation, vaping ces- but it’s something I’ve long believed. sation, addiction treatment there. Tere are many options Tank you, hon. Ministers. Tank you to the hon. mem- that we can help drive down the impacts of this before it gets bers for collaborating, for working together, for highlighting out of control. the need for action and for bringing that action. It’s the kind Now, I remember…. When did I frst think about cigar- of government I know my constituents want. ettes? I think I was ten, and there was a kid who I hung out Tey’ve long told me, “You are the member for the West with down the street who was smoking. He was two years End. You are a New Democrat, absolutely, and we support older. He was 12, and he was smoking. At the corner store, you because we support the New Democrats” — in many Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10607 cases, not all of them. Tey support me for other reasons too. Tey’re starting to explore and to think about “How do But they want me to look at this as a community, not as one I ft in?” and “What’s important to me?” I’m going to be party against each other. I endeavour to do that, and I’m so really pleased to be able to tell him that because of the happy that the government is doing the same here today. work of a group of people — and, in my case, particularly because of my MLA colleague and friend — I am way bet- S. Bond: It’s been a long afernoon in the Legislature, but ter prepared as a grandparent to be able to have those con- it’s been a productive one. I’m very appreciative of the work versations and to deal with some of the risks that are very that the Minister of Finance did, not just with this particu- present and very current. lar element dealing with an important issue in British Col- We should be clear. Vaping is not harmless, when you umbia and in North America, but also, we just worked our think that it increases exposure to harmful chemicals. It way through a very signifcant and complex piece of legis- can lead to nicotine addiction in children. Here’s the part lation around taxation where we actually saw two amend- that really makes me feel encouraged by the steps that Brit- ments pass, one introduced by the opposition and one intro- ish Columbia is taking. Tink about it. When you read…. duced by the government. I did go and read. I was encouraged to go and read and We’re building on that success now as we talk about this understand and know more about what we needed to do issue. Like others, I actually think that, as legislators…. Te as legislators. public tends to focus on a 30-minute period of the day in Here’s the phrase that got my attention: “Long-term con- this place. Ofen the rest of the work goes unnoticed, as the sequences are unknown.” A generation of young people are Finance Minister said the other day. People won’t even know potentially being exposed to nicotine addiction and chemic- that there was that give and take and working through a als, and we really don’t know what — never mind what the piece of legislation to make it better. It is possible when we short-term challenges are — it means in the long term. set our minds to it, and this is another example of that. I don’t know about you, but if ever there was a need for I like days like today. I like days like today for a number us to set aside partisan diferences and look at how we tackle of reasons. One of those is that I am very privileged to this issue, it is now. Tink about it. An addicted teenager — work with an incredible group of people, one in particular what happens if they want to quit? Tey have to go through for whom this has been a very personal journey. Te mem- withdrawal. It’s not as simple as saying: “I don’t want to vape ber for Kamloops–South Tompson came and talked to our anymore.” Tey actually face circumstances that include caucus, talked to us and put it in the context of what it was things like headaches and depression and not sleeping well. like to be a dad and looking at what potential challenges are Tey need to deal with the symptoms of withdrawal. facing his three girls. It made me think a lot about what mat- I don’t know about you. I have walked down the street, ters to me. and suddenly you smell that fruity smell. You realize exactly Now, I am way beyond his stage in life. I’ve reached that what’s happening. Imagine being a teacher in the school sys- place of enjoying what it’s like to be a grandmother. tem, as if they don’t have enough challenges on their plate, trying to deal with children who are, in essence, covertly Interjection. vaping in classrooms. It is so important that we are tackling this issue together. S. Bond: I appreciate that from the Minister of Health. I want to thank my colleague for his incredibly dedicated I think that what you’re seeing today is a recognition by advocacy on this issue. He taught me a lot. He taught, I think government, opposition and the Tird Party that together it’s fair to say, our caucus colleagues a great deal. we need to tackle a challenge that is pretty serious in British I also want to thank the Minister of Health. He wasn’t sit- Columbia. I can honestly tell you that if it wasn’t for my ting idly by. It’s probably fair to say that we would have liked friend and colleague who came and said to me, “Do you have to have seen a little more expeditious response, and I think any idea what’s going on…?” he recognizes that. But I think what ended up here is a hope- [5:25 p.m.] ful beginning. I had no idea that vape juice came in all kinds of fa- Te government has tabled a ten-point plan. As has been vours. Do you know there are dessert favours? In fact, pointed out, I’m very grateful to see that the government there’s strawberry pie and custard. Tere are categories included the items that were tabled in a private member’s that are called sweet and sour and trendy. It doesn’t take bill. I think that encourages all of us. a lot of analysis to understand why those favours are so [5:30 p.m.] attractive to young people today, especially when there’s a I’m really going to take this opportunity to remind the category called trendy. Minister of Health that I have a private member’s bill on the When I think about my grandsons…. Tey are seven and order paper as well. It has to do with defbrillators, and I’m one is soon, very soon, to be turning ten. He continues to not going to let him forget that either. He’s made a good start remind me that he’s going to be double-digits really quickly. I here, so I think it’s time for us to be looking further down tell him that someday he’ll regret those double digits. I know that list. But this isn’t a partisan issue. I certainly am questioning them. Te other thing I want to do…. I know a couple of other 10608 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019 members have spoken. Te issue isn’t about tackling vaping; voured products, stricter restrictions on advertising and it’s the how. It is very legitimate, as members of the oppo- purchase limits and the like. sition, for us to ask questions and hold the government Te interesting piece — and the piece that we’ll be debat- accountable, even though there is broad agreement that we ing in committee and that is under the purview of the Min- all need to do something. So that’s what we’re going to do. ister of Finance — is actually increasing the tax. Tis bill will increase the tax on vaping devices and substances — and on [R. Chouhan in the chair.] tobacco products, as this bill will do. We certainly are hope- ful that it will reduce the incidence of vaping among youth I actually have the sense that the Minister of Health would in British Columbia. welcome that opportunity to continue to explore the efect- Tere’s always a lot of debate about consumption taxes. iveness. Nobody wants to announce a ten-point plan without But you know, from a general perspective, consumption being held accountable for the outcomes. taxes typically and hopefully reduce consumption. Tat’s the My colleagues, the Health critic and, obviously, the mem- whole point of introducing them. ber for Kamloops–South Tompson, have spoken eloquently I noted that in looking at what was happening across the about the need for education. When we think about one of country, Alberta has also announced its intention — they the points…. I have it listed as No. 7: “Create a provincial announced it in their budget — to consider a tax on vaping youth advisory committee to support and advise on youth products as well. Tey’re doing some additional work, and vaping, education, social awareness and other initiatives, their tax will likely be introduced in 2020. Tey made that making sure we have a toolkit and launching a social mar- announcement on October 25, 2019, I believe. keting campaign.” All of those things are important. But are [5:35 p.m.] they enough? We’ll certainly, as has been pointed out, be asking some Tose are the kinds of questions we’re going to ask, questions about the logistics around this tax. It is incredibly because, as has been pointed out, it has to start with edu- important that we look at fnding the balance. We’re going to cation. To be honest, there needs to be a pretty signifcant want to have the minister explain to us how, from her per- parental component of that, because I think most parents spective and the tax analysts in her ministry, a move from 7 are probably asking themselves: “What do I do? How do to 20 percent is the optimal place for the tax to be. I help? Where is there support? How do I talk to my teen As my colleague pointed out, the last thing we want to do about that?” is drive this into the black market. Tat’s a legitimate consid- We’ve seen all too clearly in the last year that there are eration when you see a tax increase of that magnitude. So we signifcant impacts as a result of vaping. It relates to dam- want to, certainly, ask some questions about how 20 percent aging health outcomes. We saw in October the provincial was chosen. health ofcer confrming the frst probable case of vaping- We’re also going to look at the anticipated revenue. As related illness in British Columbia. Over the past number I understand it, at this point, the revenue that’ll be gen- of months, we’ve seen numerous people hospitalized across erated for the rest of the year, the balance of the year, is Canada, the United States and, potentially, even some fatal- approximately $2.5 million. I think that’s the anticipated ities that can be attached to vaping. quantum. I think, moving forward, it looks to be about $10 As has been pointed out by the House Leader for the Tird million in the next fscal year. Tat is not an insignifcant Party and other members on our side of the House, the stat- amount of money. istics are alarming and shocking. If we saw those kinds of What we are hoping to see is a dedicated fund that pro- increases anywhere else, we would be quickly working to vides support, education, all of those things that will help deal with them. ensure the success of the ten-point plan. What’s absolutely Recent studies show that vaping rates are dramatically critical to us…. Certainly, as one of the Finance co-critics, we increasing among Canadian teens. With those ages 16 to 19, will want to see a transparent reporting-out process, know- the practice has increased up to 74 percent in the past year. ing exactly how much revenue is being generated and exactly Te same studies also show that cigarette smoking in that where it’s being used. same age group has signifcantly increased in the same peri- We don’t have a lot of dedicated funds in government. od. Tat’s a concern, too, because it’s changing a decade-long Tat’s not typically how taxes are managed. We are urging trend of smoking rates decreasing. the government to ensure that there is a dedicated fund and As was mentioned very capably by the minister when she that the reporting out of that is transparent. We want to introduced the legislation, this bill is being introduced to make sure that this funding goes into programs that will sup- complement the work that the Minister of Health is doing port young people, that will help with the education pro- to curb vaping, and it is part of the government’s ten-point gram, which needs to be meaningful and substantive. action plan. It is encouraging to see the government taking We know that there’s a possibility for government to action through legislation, and obviously, other jurisdictions funnel the funds back into general revenue. Certainly, it’s have done that as well. Around North America, we’ve seen our belief that that simply wouldn’t be an appropriate way municipalities and states increasing bans on certain fa- to treat those funds. Tere are mechanisms that allow for Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10609 taxation revenue to be dedicated, and that’s what we will With that, I certainly appreciate the time I’ve been given expect to see. today. I look forward to joining my colleague from Kamloops in committee, as we walk through some of those issues. Hon. A. Dix: Of course I want to speak in support of the Te bill also raises questions about how it will be imple- bill put forward by my colleague the Minister of Finance, mented in the case of people acquiring vaping and tobacco who has been, as we’ve worked on some of the issues around products on line. Will the reach of this bill, if someone vaping and youth, a strong supporter. Tis bill represents a intends to buy products from another province, for example, part of our efort, a part of our collective efort, to address and ship them back to B.C…? Tose are things we need to issues of vaping amongst young people. contemplate as well. I think it’s important to refect in the debate. I was asked, We also will be asking questions about enforcement. How when we did a news conference to announce our plan, are we going to ensure that the changes will be enforced whether a number of years ago we got it wrong. I think I was going forward? What does the taxation look like in practice? invited, even, to comment on getting it wrong. I said I think It should also be noted — the minister referenced it — that collectively, at every jurisdiction — every provincial jur- that there are increases to other tobacco products in the bill. isdiction, at the federal jurisdiction…. We had the debate in Cigarette taxes by two cents per cigarette and loose tobacco, the House. None of us, I think, recognized, when we debated as well, by an additional two cents. in 2015 — the member for Kamloops spoke in that debate — Key questions. Why the 20 percent? We know there are that we’dbe back here talking in this way about vaping issues, difering views on consumption taxes. Do they work? How as we have been. Sometimes we get it wrong. do you fnd that balance? Probably even more critical than I think the other thing we have to understand, and the that is the use of the additional revenue. Where will it go? reason why I like to and want to continue to involve mem- How will it be accounted for? bers of the House in this plan and in our eforts to reduce We certainly are encouraging that there be a transparent vaping amongst young people, is that we’re not going to get accounting process. Not only do we want to know; I think everything right here. We have to acknowledge that, I think. that would be an incredibly important story for the public to Tis is our best decision we’ve made, based on the evidence know — that we can introduce a new element of taxation in and based on the input of a lot of people, including members our province. of the Legislature. New taxes aren’t generally welcomed by British Columbia. We’re going to have to continue to work on this and make We’ve certainly heard a lot about that, with some of the taxes adjustments and work together over time and, in particular, that have been increased. Tis one, we hope, especially when have our discussion infused with the ideas of young people, you can demonstrate to British Columbians that there is a who are (1) most afected and (2) will have, I think, tax and it will be directly applied to making sure that we have extraordinary ideas about how to address this issue. programs and supports and all of those things in place…. I think these sorts of debates, collectively, should make us [5:40 p.m.] humble sometimes about the decisions we make and about I think there is a growing recognition that we need to the need to continue to work on them and work on them take some very bold steps to deal with the issue of vaping. together, not just as governments but as society. Sometimes Our kids deserve it. As legislators, it’s our responsibility to things don’t work out as they should. Rather than have a dis- implement important but also efective legislation here in cussion about why that was the case, I think we need to come the House. together and try and address those issues. We look forward to committee stage, where we are, just as Tat’s the spirit in which, when I was asked that question, in the case of UNDRIP and other important pieces of legis- I answered the question. I said: “I don’t want to talk about lation, asking those necessary questions so that, together, we that, because I didn’t hear in the debate at that time people can create a piece of legislation that all of us can support. suggesting that the plan was the wrong plan at the time. We With that, I appreciate the time that I’ve been given to should come together now and work on it, and we’re going speak here in the Legislature. Again, I want to thank every- to have to continue to do that over time.” one who has spoken very eloquently and personally about Te bill, of course, addresses two sets of issues specifcally. this — the minister, for bringing forward this initiative as Tey refect, I think, an important part of the plan. part of government’s package, and, in particular, my col- One is to raise the sales tax on vaping products to 20 per- league and friend from Kamloops. Just a real sense of gratit- cent, which is the key initiative here, a very signifcant initi- ude for his personal advocacy on behalf of the children and ative. We believe that will have a positive efect, in addition young people of British Columbia. — not by itself but in addition — to the other measures in I think, from his perspective, I hope that today he takes our plan that we’ve brought forward. So we are supportive a moment to refect on how efective that has been and that of that. We think we’ve found the right level, at 20 percent, working collaboratively with government, we can make a that will discourage consumption. Young people, in particu- diference and address some of the challenges that he has so lar, are price-sensitive. I think it will have a positive impact ably presented over the last year or so to me and our caucus. in and of itself. 10610 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

[5:45 p.m.] Canada and the United States and the United Kingdom It’s not intended to be the sole response, nor were and showed lower levels of vaping in the United Kingdom increases in the Tobacco Tax Act over the years by govern- and in Europe. Tose are strongly linked to lower nicotine ments of all political stripes the sole response to the issue of levels. If a product is less addictive, people get addicted tobacco addiction, but they are part of the response and a less. Tis is a fundamental reality. signifcant part. Tat’s why they were included in this pack- We will be taking action to limit the level of nicotine in age, and that’s why we’re debating them in the House today. vaping products in British Columbia, and we’re hoping the I think, over the last number of years, we’ve addressed…. federal government will follow with national measures that Especially in the last year, I’d say, the vaping issue has been meet the same standard so that we can follow the best prac- addressed. We as a ministry, the Ministry of Health, particip- tices, which are not in North America but were, in this case, ated, in the fall of 2018 and the spring of 2019, in federal gov- in the EU and in Europe. ernment initiatives. I think the federal government, which On favouring. My colleague from Kamloops has spoken brought in legislation in 2018, even as recently as 2018 really ofen about this question, and we’ve had at least a couple got the balance wrong. So we’ve been participating in their of exchanges in the House but also a number of private processes. exchanges on the question, on its importance, both in Kam- I want to say today that one of the messages I’m going to loops and here. Tat question is something that we’ve have in congratulating the new federal Minister of Health addressed very clearly here. Our principal powers under our is that, from this Legislature, unanimously, people from all act are at the retail level, and that’s where we’re imposing the parties want to see federal action as well in this area, federal restriction. action on all kinds of issues from nicotine to favouring to Tat is to say that other than adult-only vaping stores, others. Te member from Prince George and, I believe, the where you have to be an adult to step in the store, we’re not member from Kamloops rightly talked about the diferent going to allow favoured products other than tobacco fa- ways people can obtain vaping products. Clearly, a federal vour, which is a straightforward measure to say that we think law that will deal with these issues and federal regulations that marketing of these products to young people is a signi- that deal with these issues would be very helpful. fcant part of the problem. I think that the message I’ll have when I have the oppor- We need retailers to take responsibility too. In terms of the tunity to speak to the new federal Minister of Health on this adult-only vaping stores, who in good faith have started their question, which we also discussed amongst Health ministers businesses, we’re handing with them. Tey should partners in a conference call on Monday, together as Health ministers, in this efort to ensure that this not used by young people. It is that this is a central question and we’ll be expecting federal is not allowed to be used by young people, and it is disastrous action. In several areas, especially advertising, where feder- for their business if it continues to be used by young people al government has way stronger powers than provincial gov- — disastrous for them. Tey need to be part of the solution, ernments, and with respect to the products and wholesaling too, in this efort to involve everyone. We’re obviously taking and interprovincial sales and so on, the federal government other elements of the problem, from labelling to advertising needs to step up and play a role complementary to us. to price, that are signifcant. We believe that the plan that we’ve laid out sets a real Te second set of measures is really about education. First framework for them to step forward and step into this of all, giving parents — and we’ve done this work over the debate. I’m hoping to hear from them with the action that last number of months with the B.C. Lung Association and they intend to take before the end of this calendar year. I others — the means to understand. think that if we do that as a country and then we do it as [5:50 p.m.] a province, as school districts, as municipalities, as opposi- I have never vaped, never smoked a cigarette. So my tion and as government, that is the most efective approach insight into these issues is diferent from people who are in to dealing with a broad societal problem. those circumstances. I think that’s true of a lot of parents. I Te measures we’ve taken have been discussed. I don’t don’t think they know. want to talk about them at length when we had an exchange, Vaping has ofen been described as harm reduction. Harm I think, in question period. I believe it was in May or April reduction is an important concept, but it doesn’t, of course, with the member for Kamloops–South Tompson. I remem- mean no harm. It means less harm. If you’re not a smoker ber the exchange very well, because he talked about favour- and you’re 15 years old or you’re 14 years old — or, yes, ten, ing and I talked about nicotine, which were the issues that nine or eight years old — then it’s just harm. It’s just harm. each of us thought were the signifcant issues. I think the We have to ensure that parents are empowered with the tools truth is that they’re both signifcant issues. to understand the impact and be able to talk to their children I think the issue of nicotine is fundamentally important and understand the implications of people who are over 19 — that we have higher levels of nicotine in our vaping providing vaping products to people who are under 19. products in Canada. Tat same British Medical Journal We need young people involved. We’re going to be study that members have referred to today, which was involving members of the House in this discussion of how published in the British Medical Journal, compared we get broad participation, because I think that while we can Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10611 have an advisory committee, we want this participation to With that, hon. Speaker, I wanted to thank all members, be broad, and we want to hear from people. We want young my friend from Kamloops, my friend from Vancouver–West people to inform our message and to deliver our message End, the many members who have come and spoken to and design our message and provide suggestions, ideas and me about this, people who are active in the community, proposals that they think will work with their colleagues, young people at Windermere and Gladstone schools who with their fellow students, their fellow young people. We have talked to me pretty frankly about the situation — some need to hear from them. of whom were using vaping products who spoke to me. We have a history with this when it comes to dealing with Te teachers at those schools in my constituency have the issue of tobacco addiction. Tis was the issue when I been very much involved in this and talked about the embar- went to school in British Columbia. People would go and rassment of staf meetings to discuss taking doors of wash- smoke, right? We really got efective when we involved rooms and such things as responses to something that’s just young people in those campaigns. Tat was something that, happening and that they needed some help with. I want to I think, in British Columbia was started under the NDP gov- thank all the people involved and say that this is something ernment and absolutely continued under the Liberal govern- we’re going to have to continue to work on together. ment in the ’90s and just afer 2000. In that period, we saw a reduction in tobacco use that was driven by the fact that Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the minister young people made it culturally and socially unacceptable to close the debate. amongst young people to smoke. [5:55 p.m.] I think we need that very same discussion here. We need information out and education out, and then we need to Hon. C. James: I just want to close with a very few com- infuse that with the ideas of young people. I think a cam- ments to focus on the Minister of Health’s fnal comments, paign driven and supported by young people will help us which were that we have a job to do here, which is to solve on the ground. We already — in the bill that we passed in the problem. Te only way we’re going to do that is by work- 2015 together, unanimously, in the House — said that young ing together. people shouldn’t be allowed to vape. We already said this. I think that has been modelled in the debate, but it’s also Tat prohibition has not been sufcient, collectively. We may been modelled in the way this bill came forward and in have thought it was sufcient, but it hasn’t been sufcient, the way the ten-point plan came forward. I give credit to collectively, to stop the current increases in rates. the Minister of Health for pulling in not only the informa- We’ve talked about a 74 percent increase. Tere was a tion that was there through a private member’s bill by the McCreary study that showed that at that time of the study, member from Kamloops–South Tompson but pulling in 22 percent of young people had vaped with nicotine in the the Minister of Education and pulling in myself as the Min- previous 30 days — 22 percent, one in fve at a high school ister of Finance to look at a comprehensive approach to this. age — which is, I think, an extraordinary number of youth. If It’s going to take a comprehensive approach. We know you disaggregate that into absolute terms, we’re talking about the challenges of changing behaviour. We know that from tens of thousands of young people. the history, whether we’re talking about smoking, whether We’re not going to solve this problem tomorrow. We’re we’re talking about seat belt use, whether we’re talking about not going to solve this problem alone. We’re not going to safety issues. We know the challenge that is ahead of us, and solve this problem just here. We have to work on it together. it’s going to be critical for us to make sure that we’re work- I want to invite people to be involved in the campaign, to ing together. We expect to be held accountable. All of us be involved in our eforts to convince the federal govern- expect to be held accountable. We certainly expect to be held ment to join us, to be involved in overseeing how this works, accountable as government as well. to assess each of the measures that we’re taking together. I I think the Minister of Health mentioned it, but I think invite members of the opposition — I know the member it’s important to note again. Te member from Kam- from Kamloops but other members who want to be part of loops–South Tompson mentioned an education program, that — to join us in that efort. some ideas around that approach. Tere is a very clear focus We want to make sure that we consistently brief and we that this will be youth-driven. Youth do not need grownups consistently evaluate the steps we’re taking because to make to tell them that one more thing is not good for them to do. changes, once something has started, takes some efort, col- Tat’s not going to be efective. Tat has been proven, gener- lectively. And it will take some efort for us to see those num- ation-wise, so this is important — for it to be peer to peer. bers decline. I think any resources that the member raised in his com- I think it’s starting to happen, though, in a sense. I think ments, any specifc programs that he thinks are important, the discussion we’re having publicly is important. I think the please share that information as well, because I think it’s information that is out and the greater information already important. We’re in the early stages. We’re in the early devel- is letting people know there’s a problem so that people aren’t, opment. Tis will be an opportunity to be able to include all with ignorance, doing something that they think will be fne of those programs and ideas, but as I said, with a youth focus. for them in proceeding and doing it. I think the other piece — and I’ve raised this on one other 10612 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

piece that was brought forward — is a tax piece. Te focus I get the concept around getting continuity in terms of is not on this tax as revenue. It’s a focus on prevention. It’s a punctuation marks and all of that stuf. I’m just wondering. focus on using the fact that youth are more price sensitive. In It seems like, to me, a lot of rigmarole to go from a round fact, we know that if we — and we’ve seen it with tobacco — bracket to a square bracket. What is the overall signifcance, increase the prices, you see the shif in behaviour occurring. I guess, within search engines or anything like that that I think that’s a very important piece. requires this type of editing to have to happen? I get some Te member raised a very important point around the of the pluralization and things like that. Maybe just for the analysis of the 20 percent and why the 20 percent. I think public’s information. we’ve had and heard a little bit of that discussion already Like I say, I’m pretty much done. around that line of where the black market takes over and [6:10 p.m.] where you’re able to keep it inside. Tat’s exactly the kind of analysis…. I know we’ll have more discussion in committee Hon. D. Eby: You know what? I learn something new stage on that piece as well. every day, and I thank the member for the question. I think it’s pretty clear this is an issue that is supported Te particular text that the member is talking about across the board — to make sure we’re doing everything we in section 1 and in other places in this bill is called a can to be able to address the issue of vaping and, in particu- descriptor. A descriptor has a specifc formatting in the lar, youth and the challenges that we see out there. statutory format of the B.C. Legislature, and that is that a With that, I will move second reading. descriptor uses square brackets and italics. A descriptor is [6:00 p.m.] something that is meant for ease of reference when some- one is reading a section — the example is section 1 — so [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] that they’re able to immediately understand what the sub- section reference refers to. Tere’s a brief descriptor to tell Second reading of Bill 45 approved unanimously on a you what it was about. division. [See Votes and Proceedings.] Here it says: “specifying other persons who are exempt from section 84(1)….” You might be like: “Oh, what is sub Hon. C. James: I move that the bill be referred to a Com- 84(1)?” Ten you get a handy descriptor aferwards in square mittee of the Whole House to be considered at the next sit- brackets with italics: “prohibiting payment for an adoption.” ting of the House afer today. It’s like: “Oh, that’s the section that prohibits payment for an adoption.” Ten you don’t have to look back to that section. Bill 45, Taxation Statutes Amendment Act, 2019, read a Te reason to put them all in square brackets with italics, second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole instead of leaving them with round brackets and plain text, is House for consideration at the next sitting of the House so that somebody reading a statute who has familiarity with afer today. B.C. format — most judges, lawyers and people familiar with B.C. statutes — would immediately recognize it. It is simply Hon. M. Farnworth: I call, in this chamber, committee for ease of reference and consistency across the statutes of on Bill 39, Miscellaneous Statutes (Minor Corrections) the province. Act, 2019. [6:05 p.m.] Sections 1 to 4 inclusive approved.

Committee of the Whole House On section 5.

BILL 39 — MISCELLANEOUS STATUTES A. Weaver: Now, I was intrigued by the additions in sec- (MINOR CORRECTIONS) AND STATUTE tions 5, 6, 7 and 8. Tey all follow along the same category. REVISION AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 I’ll just do it with respect to section 5. I saw an equation here, and that piqued my curiosity. Upon looking at this in a little Te House in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on more detail, I looked at the original, and I’m a bit perplexed Bill 39; R. Chouhan in the chair. as to why a suggested change would occur. Is it because it now says…? It basically is with respect Te committee met at 6:08 p.m. to the division sign. Was there some kind of misinterpret- ation that when you had “operator’s tarif revenue/previous On section 1. year’s tarif revenue,” in fact, the slash only referred to the revenue divided by previous? Or what other reason here? P. Milobar: I’m just going to kind of lump everything in I can see no logical reason to only do this with respect to one question, just more for the public’s knowledge. Ten I the division, whereby you have one-quarter times estimated won’t have any other questions, in all likelihood, and we can expenses. Te same logic would be one-quarter times estim- just move everything as a block. ated, with an expenses hanging of here. Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10613

I’m not sure how this is mathematically more correct or 22 Section 45.1 (1) of the Residential Tenancy Act, S.B.C. 2000 less correct. I do raise concerns about it making the bill S.B.C. 2002, c. 78, is amended in the defnition of “household vi- olence” by striking out “afected a tenant” and substituting “afected longer, because it’s spreading over extra lines. I’m wanting to a tenant’s”.] see what the rationale is for this rather, almost, elementary I move the amendment: school–type logic, in terms of having a big thing over anoth- er big thing. If the minister could perhaps educate me as to On the amendment. the rationale for this change. [6:20 p.m.] [6:15 p.m.] A. Weaver: I do have a question on this amendment. Tis Hon. D. Eby: I was remiss in failing to recognize Cara is the frst time in my time in the Legislature that a miscel- Leitch, who’s beside me here. She’s the statute revision laneous statutes bill, which is dealing with commas and apo- coordinator with the ofce of legislative counsel. I am strophes and things like that, is being amended on the foor. indebted to her assistance as I answer the member’s ques- My question to the minister is…. I know the level of detail tions. and work done by the various legislative drafers in this Previously, it was very difcult for legislative drafers to lay place, and they are phenomenal. How on earth was this pro- out a formula in a way that would be more immediately intu- found error not caught? And why is it that we are having to itive, which is the current format. So they did it in a straight debate it on the foor here today, as opposed to doing the line, and they did it with a slash rather than having one term work in advance to ensure that we didn’t have to take the over another term. Te simple explanation is that with mod- time up to discuss these amendments here on the foor? ern sofware, it’s much easier to lay out a formula in this way, which is intended to provide ease of use for people who read Hon. D. Eby: Well, I regret to inform the member that I the statute to understand how to do the math — in this case, was concerned that the member had not been reading the in relation to ferry operator payments — more easily. bills. So I advised staf to insert an intentional error into the It’s not a math correction. It’s a formatting correction, I bill, with the aim of catching out any members who had not guess is the word. But it’s not even really a correction. It’s read the bill. It looks like we were successful. bringing it into consistency with the formatting standards of other formulas throughout B.C. legislation. A. Weaver: I very much appreciate that answer. I humbly take my chair. As the minister did point out, I did not check A. Weaver: Now, I would like to remind the Attorney that, nor did I catch that, although I have checked historic- General that in math, elegance and simplicity ofen trump, ally, as you will know, certain comments. like long division, in this way. I cannot support this change With that, I’m very supportive of this amendment. It’s a and will be voting against it in light of the fact that what pivotal piece of legislative change that we cannot do without was very elegant mathematics displayed in a tight format, in this province. very easy to understand, is being replaced by what I can only describe as, frankly, inelegant mathematics that is not any Amendment approved. more accurate and not as abbreviated as it could be. Tank you to the minister for clarifying that. Section 22 as amended approved. Hon. D. Eby: I thank the member for his commitment A. Weaver: On that note, seeing as this is such an import- to his principles even in the face of overwhelming evidence ant change to this section, and as a member of this Legisla- that this is the format for formulas in the B.C. statutes. I do tive Assembly, I give notice now that I will not grant leave for admire his commitment to the cause, and I’m sure that his- this to go to third reading until such time as I’m able to see tory will note his disagreement with the formatting. the bill printed in its corrected form, as is my right, afer this bill passes through committee stage. Sections 5 to 8 inclusive approved on division. Sections 23 to 28 inclusive approved. Sections 9 to 21 inclusive approved. On section 29. On section 22. P. Milobar: I’m just wondering if the Attorney General Hon. D. Eby: I rise to propose an amendment to Bill could maybe give a little more depth to what exactly this is 39, section 22. Te text of the bill reads “Statutes of B.C. enabling — it is a consequential amendment; I think it’s the 2000.” It should read “Statutes of B.C. 2002,” and the pro- only one in the whole bill — in terms of what this means posed amendment refects that. moving forward, this change, in terms of the changes to how [SECTION 22, by deleting the text shown as struck out and adding the underlined text as shown: 10614 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019 the cross-referencing terminology amendments to the regu- Hon. D. Eby: I call Bill 40, the Interpretation Amendment lations will be made with statute revisions. Act, 2019, committee stage. [6:25 p.m.] [6:30 p.m.]

Hon. D. Eby: On occasion, a statute will be revised, and Committee of the Whole House that revision will have an impact on regulations that are already in existence. Te issue is that until the revised act BILL 40 — INTERPRETATION passes, the regulations that existed before the coming into AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 force of the revision can’t be revised until the act is passed. Te goal of the ofce of the legislative counsel is: could Te House in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on we bundle all together the changes to the regulations that Bill 40; J. Isaacs in the chair. are necessary to bring them up to new terminology in the act that’s about to pass with the order-in-council that brings Te committee met at 6:31 p.m. the act into efect, as opposed to having to bring the act into efect and then going back and changing all the regulations On section 1. individually? Staf have brought an example of that. Under the old L. Larson: As the minister knows, I support this bill. I just Workers Compensation Act, there is a description of a per- wanted to take an opportunity here to say that and also to manent disability award that was made by the board, and comment on the fact that there are areas of the province that that was incorporated into the regulations. But then the are not in the same time zone as other areas of the province Workers Compensation Act was changed to describe a per- and, with your indulgence, to allow my colleagues who live manent disability compensation determined by the board — in the northeast and southeast corners to make comment diferent wording. Tat wording could now be incorporated before we go through the thing. into all of the associated regulations, in the order-in-coun- cil, all bundled together when the revised act is brought into T. Shypitka: I want to thank the member for Boundary- force, as opposed to having to bring it into force and then do Similkameen for initiating a private member’s bill — the them all individually later. reason why we’re here today, in part. I wanted to put a little It’s an intended efciency mechanism to assist the ofce disclaimer out frst. Tis Bill 40 is applicable to everybody in of legislative counsel in bringing regulations up to date with the province except those on Mountain Standard Time and revised terminology in a revised act. Mountain Daylight Time. Tat kind of brings me to my frst question. Tere was a Sections 29 and 30 approved. little bit of confusion on the survey when it frst was brought out. I looked at the survey. Te reason was…. A lot of people Title approved. in my riding and, I know, in a lot of other ridings took part in the survey. In an efort to…. A lot of people don’t want to Hon. D. Eby: I move the committee rise and report the move their clocks twice a year, and some people do like mov- bill complete with amendment. ing their clocks twice a year. What they found afer the survey was done was that this Motion approved. bill and this survey didn’t apply to them. Tey were very con- fused, some very angry. I got lots of phone calls, and I still Te committee rose at 6:27 p.m. get them to this day. I just wanted to ask if that was con- sidered. I’m looking at the survey right now. I’ll just read one Te House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. sentence, for example. It was the frst question, “B.C. contin- ues the practice of changing our clocks biannually,” or not. Reporting of Bills Ten it goes on further to say: “B.C. should continue our current practice of ‘springing forward.’” Te question was if BILL 39 — MISCELLANEOUS STATUTES B.C. should continue its practice. (MINOR CORRECTIONS) AND STATUTE Using that terminology of “B.C.” sounds inclusive to me. REVISION AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 Was there any thought that went into the ministry to exclude the terminology “B.C.” and make it pertain only to those in Bill 39, Miscellaneous Statutes (Minor Corrections) and the Pacifc Time zone? Statute Revision Amendment Act, 2019, reported complete [6:35 p.m.] with amendment, to be considered at the next sitting of the House afer today. Hon. D. Eby: Te concern was that in doing the survey, there might be a feeling in the member’s community that government was planning on telling his constituents what to Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10615

do in terms of which time zone to adhere to, either Pacifc the initials UTC to describe that. Now, this is a tough one Time or otherwise. Te goal was for those communities that for me to even wrap my head around. Te proposed time have made their own decisions about particular time zones is minus seven from UTC. Tat actually means based on to continue to be able to do that. Te concern was that put- the Pacifc Daylight Time model. So when we spring ahead, ting that kind of wording into the survey may have suggested we’re minus seven hours from UTC time. that government was looking at forcing them in one direc- Tat’s to the opposite side of what Greenwich Mean tion or the other. Time is, and that’s what the Vancouver Charter, in section Really, the intent was simply to gauge whether British Col- 194, identifes as being seven hours behind Greenwich umbians wanted to continue changing their clocks or not Mean Time. and whether they wanted to be in sync with neighbours on [6:40 p.m.] the borders to the north and the south. Tere are two diferent time zones. Greenwich Mean As far as the decision for the member’s constituency, it is Time recognizes daylight savings time, and UTC is a fxed a local decision about whether they will decide to move to standard time. So if we’re going to a minus seven on the Pacifc Time or to remain in the current time zone. Tey will UTC, it actually resembles more the standardized time of be able to make that decision locally, which was the desire of Mountain Standard Time, which is an actual standard time government — that they be able to do that. across the board. It becomes a little bit more confusing, because people T. Shypitka: Absolutely, it’s a local decision. We can do in my time zone, on mountain daylight savings time, as that regionally and municipally. opposed to people in the members’ from Peace north or However, a simple disclaimer to avoid the confusion Peace south…. Tey’re on Mountain Standard Time. So would have been very easy to do. I think for me to phone the there are three diferent time zones in the province. I can 36,783 people in my riding would have been pretty tough to drive 40 minutes down the road, and I can go through all do to tell them to stop. I could have put it on websites, or I three time zones within 40 minutes, because Creston, next to could have spent some money on advertising. It could have Cranbrook, is actually on daylight savings time. been all kinds of things. What could possibly happen here is if we ever wanted to Te simplest solution would have been merely just to say: coordinate our time with the rest of the province — as the “Disclaimer. Tis is only for people in the Pacifc Time zone Attorney General mentioned, we have that ability to do it — region, and it excludes people on Mountain Daylight Time we would now either be called Pacifc Time zone or we’d stay and Mountain Standard Time.” Tat’s really all I’m trying to on Mountain Standard Time. So we could essentially have get at here. two diferent names of two diferent zones with the same Going a little further, does the minister have any thoughts time in the province. on how this could have skewed the survey in general? Now, the sensible thing to do would be just to accept being on Pacifc Time, so the whole province would now be Hon. D. Eby: We did have responses from East and West on Pacifc Time. Ours would resemble Mountain Standard Kootenays. I’m advised by staf here, by Neil Reimer, director Time. Teirs would resemble Pacifc daylight savings time. If of policy and legislation, Ministry of Attorney General, that you can follow me with this. it was consistent with response patterns from other parts of Now, the conundrum kind of goes down the road, the province, which was overwhelming support for Pacifc because Alberta is going through a survey right now, and Time and support for remaining consistent with neighbours, we do a lot of trade with Alberta. I think, probably, the if possible. general consensus in the province, same as here, is people I take the member’s point. His suggestion is a sound one. like the daylight savings time model. We like those late Simply note in future that if there’s an engagement that’s up nights and stuf like that. and members are hearing concerns that somehow there’s a However, if they went to Mountain Standard Time, they local issue that’s not adequately refected or is creating con- would either now be put into the position of calling them- fusion, please don’t hesitate to let us know, because then we selves Pacifc Time zone, or they would have a diferent time could make adjustments and clarifcations to try to avoid zone called Mountain Standard Time, which is what they what it sounds like the member had in his ofce, which are would be more truly refecting. phone calls and questions about the survey. Tis would confuse a lot of commuters going from Cal- gary to Cranbrook, going from Mountain Standard Time T. Shypitka: I will certainly take that back to the constitu- to Pacifc Time and it being the exact same time zone. I’m ents. Tey would appreciate the words, for sure. It did cause just wondering if the minister thought about these kinds some confusion, and a lot of people were a little upset. Not of conundrums that could happen down the road, because feeling part of the province is kind of what the general feel- we’re very diverse in this province, and this could have a ing was. ripple efect across the board. Tis next part here talks about Pacifc Time meaning sev- en hours behind Coordinated Universal Time. I’ll just use Hon. D. Eby: Te member is right. I’ve spent a lot of time 10616 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019 thinking about this. No, I haven’t. Te truth of this matter is the minister for agreeing that it’s not appropriate to interfere that I am very reliant on staf that spend a great deal of time with Alberta’s afairs. Tat’s a great acknowledgment here in working this through. I have to admit my eyes crossed a little the House. I thought I’d do that. bit when the member was running through the explanation I actually thought I understood this topic until I heard my of the issue. I think I have a handle on it now. friend from Kootenay East with his preamble. I think I con- Te member is correct that Pacifc Time would be the fused myself again, but I’m glad that you have learned staf same as Mountain Standard Time — the same on the clock. with you. Just quickly, though…. If you looked at it, it would be the same time. As long as Obviously, the minister knows that the Peace region, for Alberta continues to do daylight savings time, that would be decades now, has been on Mountain Standard Time and half the year we would have the same time — Pacifc Time, has actually not recognized daylight savings time. Tus, we Mountain Standard Time — and half the year we would be stay the same year-round. I would, I guess, acknowledge diferent times. Now, I understand that Alberta is doing an that that’s kind of what we’re looking at doing now in the engagement on that very question right now. So that may or province, the rest of British Columbia. Half the year we were may not be an issue in terms of half the year, half the year. Alberta time, and half the year we’re B.C. time, if you want to In terms of people’s experience of the time, the name of call them those time zones for simplicity. I’m just hoping…. the time zone is not hugely signifcant. However, I do accept All I really need is for the minister to clarify it for the the member’s point that we’ll have a couple diferent time people in my riding. Te understanding, frst of all, that I’ve zones, with, for at least half the year, the same time, and got it correct but to basically acknowledge that what this bill potentially all year round, should Alberta decide to abandon enforces…. If it’s enacted through regulation next year, the daylight savings time as well. understanding, then, will be that the Peace region will no [6:45 p.m.] longer have that efect of only being the same as British Col- umbia half the year. Provided the Peace region stays with T. Shypitka: Not to belabour this, but the next question what is now Mountain Standard Time, it will now refect would be…. Alberta has got a survey going on right now. the Pacifc daylight savings time that the province is looking Has the minister been in contact or asked the Alberta gov- at going to, which means we’ll be the same year-round, my ernment which way they think it’s going to go? region with the rest of the province, absent maybe a few in I think it’ll probably go to daylight savings time. So this the Kootenays that are being discussed. I just want to make could all be just an exercise here in clarity. If Alberta goes sure that that’s correct. to Mountain Standard Time, they will either then be forced to be called the Pacifc Time zone all the way to the Saskat- Hon. D. Eby: Tat is correct, and I do appreciate that chewan border, or they’ll be Mountain Standard Time, the member has not lectured us all on “I told you so.” Tey which aligns with UTC on a standardized set time, and we were clearly ahead of the curve in his constituency, and we’re would have two diferent time zones with the same time. catching up to them. I’m just wondering. Te question to the minister would be: has he contacted the Alberta government on their survey A. Weaver: My question with respect to this section is…. I that they’re doing right now? understand the bill was proposed afer a very extensive con- sultation process in the midst of the summer, when every- Hon. D. Eby: No, I haven’t. I do want to recognize the one’s sitting on their patios enjoying the long summer nights. signifcant number of British Columbians in the survey who My question to the minister is: why was the option for said it was important to, as best as possible, be on a similar remaining on standard time not put to the people as well? time zone with our neighbours to the north and south. I’m I’ve received quite a bit of feedback from my constituents, sure the feeling is the same to the east, as well, but I would invariably opposed to going on daylight time but, rather, not want to be seen to be weighing in, in any way, on staying on standard time. I’m wondering why that option Alberta’s sovereign consultations — wrong word — their was not put forward. own provincial jurisdiction to do their own engagement [6:50 p.m.] with their own folks about their own time zone and what Many people who’ve expressed their concerns to me have they want to call it. done so saying that they don’t like the change. Tey under- I don’t suspect that Mr. Trudeau would want to weigh in stand the research in terms of both the health and safety and force them to adopt the moniker Pacifc Time in the impacts with springing forward and falling back every year. event that they decide to vote to do away with daylight sav- Tey understand that. Tey understand the move and desire ings time, but I’m just speculating way out of my range now. to keep on the same time zone. Tis is an Albertan matter for Albertans. As far as British Te arguments were not particularly compelling, as my Columbians, the message to us is very clear that they want to friend from Kootenay East here pointed out, with respect to get rid of daylight savings time. interjurisdictional matching, in light of the fact that we have three time zones already in our province and in light of the M. Bernier: First, I just wanted to acknowledge and thank fact Saskatchewan remains on standard time year round. So Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10617 does the Fort St. John region. Alberta is going through this time instead of daylight time. Frankly, Alaska, in the same process that could end up being on standard time or daylight corridor, is on a diferent time zone. time or Pacifc Time. So why was this not put as one of the [6:55 p.m.] potential options? I come back to the point. Does the minister feel he has the information, in light of the fact that incomplete information Hon. D. Eby: Remarkably, 223,000 British Columbians in was provided to the electorate on which to base a decision? the summer participated in this engagement, a very signif- Does he think that, in fact, two years from now, we’re going cant level of participation. Tere was an open-ended section to be reverting back to standard time like every other juris- in the survey where people could provide their feedback to diction that’s done this has done so, because people will be us. Staf advise that 3 percent of those open-ended answers complaining the frst time a child gets hit by a car on their referred to preferring to be on standard time versus the way to school in the dark? option that was put forward in the survey. Te key motivator around the options that were presented Hon. D. Eby: I think it’s important to note for the member in the survey was, I think, borne out in the consultation: the that in terms of aligning clocks to when we’re awake, the cur- idea that we would be well placed to be consistent up and rent method of changing time does the best job of that. If down the coast, from the Yukon all the way down to Califor- you’re choosing a diferent time zone, there are pluses and nia, if we could. minuses. Te member mentions dark mornings as a point of I accept the member’s contention that it wasn’t put for- concern. Similarly, on the time zone the member is advoc- ward in the survey. But even where people did have an ating for, there are very early morning sunrises — 3:30, four opportunity to raise the issue, we did not see a signifcant o’clock in the morning — during the summer, which has its number of folks raising concern about this. It was on the own consequences. order of about 3 percent. Te important thing to note is that there are choices to make here. I understand that British Columbians, afer they A. Weaver: Well, I don’t feel that that’s a very satisfactory experience not doing a changing of the clock for the frst answer. Te question was why it was not put on as opposed time in generations, may not like it, and they may want to do to in the open space, where people ofen…. Tey like to click something else. Tat is certainly a possibility. It’s not out of boxes in these surveys. Tere was no option presented. the question. I’m sure that the government would listen care- In the second reading speech, I gave a long discussion fully to concerns like that. about some of the issues that will arise. I would suggest to the I can tell the member that we had…. Ninety-four per- Attorney General that the information — does he not feel cent of participants in the survey supported the direction this is true? — provided to people was incomplete. of the bill. Te information provided to citizens voting or selecting choices, limited choices, did not really talk about some of A. Weaver: Just one fnal comment to confrm that it is the failed models — when we went to daylight savings time true that sunrise in daylight savings time does occur at 3:39 in the U.K. in 1968. It did not talk about the safety issues in the morning in Prince George on the longest day of the that arose as a direct consequence of that, which is why, in year. But the safety issue is the fact that down in these latit- 1971, afer people complaining, they switched back to stand- udes, we’re going to have people rising in darkness. Tey’ll ard time. I remind the Attorney General that our latitudes be coming home in lightness. Tey’re going to be going to are actually, in many cases, south of what in Victoria…. And school in darkness, and therein lies the essence of the con- we have other latitudes more north than places in Britain, cerns, which I don’t think was brought to the public. where this was occurring. With that, I’ll reserve any further questions. In addition, we know the experiment in the U.S. not once but twice was reversed. Again, once, it was put in and Hon. D. Eby: I move that the committee rise, report pro- reversed afer a short period of time during the OPEC crisis gress and seek leave to sit again. as a direct consequence of people once more complaining. It’s going to matter when people in Prince Rupert and chil- Motion approved. dren going to school in Prince Rupert realize that they’re waking up with sunrise at 10:30 in the morning or whatever Te committee rose at 6:58 p.m. it might be. It’s quite diferent, given that the whole reason that stand- Te House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. ard time was put in, in the frst place was a standard time — recognizing that the solar noon, the temporal noon and Committee of the Whole (Section B), having reported our body clock should be as closely matched as possible. Tis progress, was granted leave to sit again. kind of idea here seems to be half-baked. It’s based on California, Washington and Oregon musing Committee of the Whole (Section A), having reported about it. California has since mused about going on standard progress, was granted leave to sit again. 10618 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

Hon. D. Eby: I seek leave to table a report. between my colleague the member for Abbotsford West and myself with the minister. Leave granted. One of the clarifcations, certainly, in our discussion today on this section has been that the application of UNDRIP, Tabling Documents meaning the words that are utilized in this bill, is understood by government in the use of those terms. Te intention is Hon. D. Eby: I have the honour to present the fnal report that the courts would continue to use UNDRIP, as it’s of the 2019 British Columbia Judicial Compensation Com- attached to this bill, merely as an interpretive tool. As that mission. Tis commission is appointed under the Judicial tool of interpretation, that certainly is consistent with other Compensation Act to make recommendations regarding the decisions of the courts, which is something I’d just like to salaries, allowances and benefts for provincial court judges spend a few minutes talking to the minister about. and judicial justices for the three fscal years 2021 through [2:55 p.m.] 2022-23. For example, the decision by the federal court in the Nun- Pursuant to subsection 6(3) of the Judicial Compensation atukavut Community Council Inc. v. Canada, a decision of Act, I also advise the House that if the Legislative Assembly 2015. In paragraph 103, the court held that UNDRIP “may does not resolve to reject any of the recommendations con- be used to inform the interpretation of domestic law.” Ten tained in the report within the time established in the act, further: “While the court will favour interpretations of the then the judges and judicial justices will receive the salaries law embodying UNDRIP’s values, the instrument does not and benefts recommended by the commission. create substantive rights.” Te time established in the act for such a resolution is Tis is very similar to what the minister confrmed yes- 16 sitting days afer the date the report is laid before the terday. Te view of the government is that it is there to be assembly — in other words, 16 sitting days afer today. utilized as a tool for interpretation by the courts. It doesn’t If any recommendations contained in the report are rejec- create new substantive rights, and that’s the intention of the ted, then the assembly must set the remuneration, allow- government in this bill. ances or benefts that are to be substituted for the commis- Having said that, I’d like to ask the minister…. I’m sion’s recommendations. familiar with decisions that have said, generally, the I thank the members for leave. Today was the last day for approach that the courts will be utilizing, which is the use us to table this report. of this as an interpretation tool. Can the minister, from the government’s point of view, understanding it is an inter- Hon. M. Farnworth moved adjournment of the House. pretation tool, share with the committee other instances of decisions of the court where it has been actually applied as Motion approved. an interpretation tool?

Mr. Speaker: Tis House stands adjourned until 10 a.m. Hon. S. Fraser: Tank you to the member for the ques- tomorrow morning. tion. Te Nunatukavut Community Council Inc. v. Canada — that’s the frst I’d heard of that case. I thank the member Te House adjourned at 7 p.m. for edifcation on that. Besides that, we have found two oth- ers: the Inglis v. British Columbia 2013 case and the Taku River Tlingit v. Yukon; 2016 is the date of that. Tat’s not an Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room exhaustive list, but that’s what we’ve been able to come up with on short notice here. Committee of the Whole House M. Lee: I appreciate that response — on short notice, as BILL 41 — DECLARATION ON THE you say. It will be useful because so much of this depends RIGHTS OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLES ACT upon the current understanding of the government as to (continued) how UNDRIP will be viewed by the courts. So I think it’s important. Perhaps I would ask, as we go through the rest of Te House in Committee of the Whole (Section A) on the committee stage here, that this may be a point that we Bill 41; R. Kahlon in the chair. can come back to as the minister’s team has an opportunity to consider, through the course of today and the days that Te committee met at 2:53 p.m. follow, what other decisions the government is aware of. [3:00 p.m.] On section 1 (continued). Again, I do think it’s important that we have a clear under- standing of how the courts have applied UNDRIP. Certainly, M. Lee: I just wanted to continue our discussion on sec- these decisions are helpful, but as we look at it, it is still new. tion 1 by furthering the exchange we were having yesterday Tat’s something that the minister took an opportunity to, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10619 again, share with this committee — that this has not been this as part of a universal mandate letter that went out. I done before. Even though Bolivia is a jurisdiction in which had some more specifcs, of course, and other ministers they’ve gone through a similar but diferent process, in terms would have too. of actually appending UNDRIP to a legal document and It reads: enacting it in a bill of this nature in totality…. Tat, as I “As part of our commitment to true, lasting reconciliation with understand, is not what Bolivia has done. Tere are certain First Nations in British Columbia, our government will be fully ad- portions that they may not have brought into their legislative opting and implementing the UN declaration on the rights of In- digenous peoples, or UNDRIP, and the calls to action of the Truth framework. and Reconciliation Commission. As minister, you are responsible for I think it’s important that we understand, with this bill, moving forward on the calls to action and reviewing policies, pro- how the courts will be looking at UNDRIP. We are in a col- grams and legislation to determine how to bring the principles of the lective understanding, based on these decisions to date, that declaration into action in British Columbia.” directionally it is to be a tool for interpretation. I just wanted I guess I could elaborate on that, but that is the specifc to ensure that, for the record, we have a clear understanding wording that I did receive, as did other ministers of the of what that is. Again, if the minister would be agreeable to Crown. that, as your team is able to identify those other decisions, if there are any others, perhaps we can circle back and have M. de Jong: As the minister has pointed out, in his par- that further discussion, regardless of when that might be, ticular mandate letter, there are at least two additional bullet during this committee proceeding. points that refer specifcally to the United Nation’s declar- ation. I wonder if he might care to provide those for the Hon. S. Fraser: We’ll endeavour to comply with that. It record as well. sounds reasonable to me. Hon. S. Fraser: I’d be happy to. “Work collaboratively and Section 1 approved. respectfully with First Nations to establish a clear cross-gov- ernment vision of reconciliation to guide the adoption of On section 2. the UN declaration on the rights of Indigenous peoples, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission calls to action and M. de Jong: With respect to this section, which, again, the Tsilhqot’in Supreme Court decision.” Next is: “In part- focuses on the application of the declaration to the laws of nership with First Nations, transform the treaty process so it British Columbia and speaks to the implementation in 2(b), respects case law and the United Nations declaration on the the implementation of the declaration…. I wanted to just rights of Indigenous peoples.” take a few moments, along with my colleague, to explore that Tere are three more bullets. Tey’re not very long, so I’m aspect of it. I’m talking about sub (b) and the implementa- just going to put them into the record too. “Support Indigen- tion, the work ahead and the work that has taken place. ous communities seeking to revitalize connections to their Te minister, in his earlier remarks in this committee and, languages.” Next is: “Provide reliable, dedicated funding and I believe, at second reading, spoke to the mandate letter that support for friendship centres.” Lastly: “With the Minister of guides his work. I wonder if he might relay to the committee, Finance, negotiate with First Nations leadership and com- and the people watching, the nature of the mandate he has munities around expanding opportunities for their share of been handed by the Premier when he took ofce. B.C.’s gaming industry.” [3:05 p.m.] M. de Jong: As the minister has indicated, the frst part of Hon. S. Fraser: I’ll read directly from the mandate letter that, the frst paragraph, references the government’s com- that I received from the Premier over two years ago now. mitment to lasting reconciliation and speaks to implement- Tis is the frst part. I think it was universal to all ministers. ation of the United Nation’s declaration. Tat paragraph, as I’ll start with that, and then I’ll move into the specifcs. I understand it, was included in the mandate letters of each member of the executive council. M. de Jong: To help the minister, I have a copy. I am grate- I’ve looked at a few. I have the Forest Minister’s mandate ful that the minister will read into the record the part that he letter, the Finance Minister’s and the Attorney General’s. can choose to reference, whatever part of the letter he wishes. Tat paragraph appears to be embedded in all of the man- My sense is that the relevant part for our discussion here date letters. Te minister can, I think, confrm that it formed today is on page 2 of the letter, about four or fve paragraphs the basis of the instructions that the Premier provided to down. It speaks to: “As part of our commitment to lasting each member of the executive council at the time they were reconciliation….” sworn in.

Hon. S. Fraser: Tank you to the member opposite. I Hon. S. Fraser: I apologize in advance. I was reading my will read that in. It’s a paragraph that was part of, I believe, mandate letter of of an iPad, and I realize that’s not appro- all my colleagues in all ministries. All ministries received 10620 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019 priate. I don’t think I have a paper copy here. If I have to refer [3:15 p.m.] to it again, I may have to get a paper copy. With that in mind, in my particular ministry, the Ministry Tat being said, that paragraph, specifcally…. My under- of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation — the language standing is every one of my colleagues in executive council portion — we invested $50 million over three years towards received that exact same paragraph as part of their mandate protecting and revitalizing Indigenous languages through letter. Of course, they would have received, along with that, the First Peoples Cultural Council. So that’s underway, of specifcs to their ministry in their mandate letters that I course. We’re in the second year of that. would not have received. I, too, received…. Te portions that Core funding for friendship centres was another key spe- I read in there, below that paragraph, were specifc to my cifc mandate in my letter from the Premier. We’ve invested, I ministry. think, just over $6 million in three years. Tat’s ongoing also. Treaty transformation work has also undertaken some M. de Jong: How’s it going? major changes in a tripartite agreement. Just before the writ [3:10 p.m.] dropped for the federal election, we were able to sign of with our partners — the First Nations Summit and the fed- Hon. S. Fraser: Pretty good, I think. Te question is eral government, our federal counterparts — on some major somewhat subjective, and I’m probably somewhat biased. work on treaty transformation, bringing the treaty process in Tank you for the sofball on that one. To the member alignment with the UN declaration. opposite, I appreciate the humour of it too. Gaming. Specifcally, the largest revenue-sharing agree- I have been in the position for 28 months now. I thought I ment in the history of the province — $3 billion over 25 knew everything about the ministry, as I was a shadow cab- years, about $100 million a year, coming out of the provincial inet critic for many years with many ministers, including the portion of gaming. Just for the record, it’s not afecting gam- member opposite as minister. I thought I had a pretty good ing grants that go to local governments or NGOs. Tat handle on how things worked, but I did not. I learned a lot money is already fowing. Ten, of course, there’s the in the frst couple of months. UNDRIP legislation. Te mandate letter was quite clear to me on all of those Besides that, my colleagues in other ministries…. Tis key issues that were highlighted by the Premier in my man- will not be exhaustive either. For example, in Housing, date letter. Tis last piece, bringing in the legislation to rec- we’ve got $550 million specifcally earmarked for Indigen- ognize the UN declaration, was a key part. Te other man- ous housing, of and on reserve, also, which is a new thing. dates that I was given, specifcally, are all well underway. Tat’s over ten years. Implementing a new K-to-12 curriculum that makes sure M. de Jong: Yes. It was an uncharacteristically general all children in British Columbia are taught about Indigenous question, but I think the minister caught the essence. culture and history. Again, this is just a list. I’d have to sit In his second reading remarks, he actually took a moment down with all of my colleagues. I know that they’d be able to point out some of the progress that he feels the govern- to bring out numerous other examples of where government ment has made departmentally and across government with has, I think, taken the mandate letter seriously. respect to implementing the UN declaration since taking ofce in 2017. I thought I might ask him here, since we are M. de Jong: To be fair to the minister, you’re not ofen talking about a section that deals with implementation, what confronted by questions from the opposition to outline all he sees as the achievements, the highlights that relate to, spe- the great things you’ve done. Te minister has provided a cifcally, the implementation of the United Nations declara- list, admittedly not an exhaustive list. He referred to most of tion, whether anything of substance has been accomplished. these things in his second reading remarks as well. In his second reading remarks, he pointed to some things I take it that there has also been some work done around that he feels fall into that category. I’m interested to know statutory harmonization or statutory updating. Te reason I what, given the opportunity, he would point to, what the can say that with a measure of authority is that the House government would point to, as demonstrating progress with dealt last year, for example, with Bill 51, the Environmental respect to the specifc task of implementing the United Assessment Act, which included provisions that specifcally Nations declaration. referred to the United Nations declaration. Section 2, I think, in that act, specifcally referred to the Hon. S. Fraser: I know, at one point, myself and my col- purposes to support reconciliation by, in sub (A): “support- leagues in executive council tried to quantify the pieces of ing the implementation of the United Nations Declaration what we’re doing together across government. We are break- on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.”I think I recall that cor- ing down, I think, silos within government. I think in this rectly. Tat is an example of a statutory change that has taken particular…. Te identical mandates that were given to all place. Tere may well be others where there has been specifc the ministers are refected in each ministry. It’s interesting, reference to the declaration built into the legislation. as we work together in government, to try to implement the So (a), will the minister confrm for the committee that spirit and intent and words of the UN declaration. my recollection of that particular amendment is correct? Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10621

And (b), if he can cite any other similar examples where ernance Act. It was possible to do that absent the passage legislation has been amended to include a specifc reference of Bill 41. to the declaration, I’d be obliged to hear about them. [3:20 p.m.] Hon. S. Fraser: Tat’s correct.

Hon. S. Fraser: To the member opposite, his memory was M. de Jong: Going forward on the assumption that Bill 41 correct. In the Environmental Assessment Act, subsection passes and is enacted, as I expect it will be, can the minister (2)(ii): “support reconciliation with Indigenous peoples in advise: will it be necessary to advance the kinds of amend- British Columbia by (A) supporting the implementation of ments and embed the kinds of provisions that we now see the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous in the Environmental Assessment Act and the Professional Peoples.” Te member was spot on. Governance Act? I hope the minister understands my ques- Besides that, there’s also the Professional Governance Act, tion. Will it be necessary, post passage and proclamation of subsection 7(2), and of the top, that’s what we’ve come up Bill 41…? If the government wishes to create that linkage, with. Again, that may not be exhaustive, but those are the will it be necessary to do so on individual statutes? two that come to mind at this point. [3:30 p.m.]

M. de Jong: I think, for the purpose of the conversation Hon. S. Fraser: As we move forward, there’s no one I wish to have with the minister, that’s sufcient, and I answer. Tis will be case by case, depending on the objectives acknowledge that there may be other examples. of government and our work with Indigenous peoples. As My question relating to that is this. I don’t recall this you’ll see in section 3 coming up, the process for doing that being an issue at the time those provisions made their way will be there. Tere’s no one answer. It’ll be a case by case. through the parliament here. But in the course of developing them, drafing those — I know the minister would have been M. de Jong: Maybe the fairer question, then, to the min- involved in advancing the mandate that he’s been handed by ister at this stage of the game is to ask him to confrm that the Premier in his role as minister — did he, the government, the legal authority to make the kinds of changes that have legislative counsel, encounter any statutory impediments or already been made to at least two statutes — the Professional other impediments that threatened to frustrate the desire to Governance Act and the Environmental Assessment Act — include the amendments and the references to the declara- to include specifc reference to the UN declaration exists tion that we have just identifed in at least two statutes and today and is not dependent upon passage of Bill 41. Is that a possibly more? Well, that’s my question. fair statement?

Hon. S. Fraser: Just a reminder that any advice received is Hon. S. Fraser: Tat would be an accurate statement, yes. subject to solicitor-client privilege. So I cannot speak to the question. M. de Jong: My colleague is going to pose a few more [3:25 p.m.] questions, a couple more questions, in a moment. Ten — so that the minister and his team can, perhaps, begin to pre- M. de Jong: Right. I may have asked the question incor- pare — what I’m proposing we do, as part of the discussion rectly. I wasn’t seeking the minister to reveal anything that in section 2, is to move to the actual declaration and, as best might be covered by solicitor-client privilege. we can, move through some of the questions that have arisen I’ll try again. Is Bill 41 — this section or any of the provi- with respect to the articles. sions that we have or will deal with — designed to address Te minister, happily, has chosen to append the declar- or overcome any obstacles that the government has ation. Since it is ultimately about the declaration, a more encountered in advancing the kinds of provisions that we detailed and, to the extent we can keep it organized, orderly have just talked about in the Professional Governance Act examination of the articles of the declaration is what I pro- or the Environmental Assessment Act that allow for specifc pose to move to momentarily. reference to the UN declaration? Before we do that, though, I want to…. I was thinking last night about summarizing what we’ve learned so far. If it’s the Hon. S. Fraser: Te answer will be a simple one. It would kind of thing that I am going to say, I’m interested to know be no. whether or not the minister, on behalf of the government, agrees with this proposition. M. de Jong: Tanks to the minister. I will say it one dif- I think it is fair to say that the government of B.C. and ferent way, and it’s a question. Te passage of Bill 41, obvi- the minister are seeking to accomplish certain things. We see ously, then, was not a prerequisite to being able to success- that revealed in the mandate letters that we have had referred fully amend the two statutes that we have referred to — the to us. We have heard it from the minister during the course Environmental Assessment Act and the Professional Gov- of this discussion, in his introductory comments, in second reading comments — a desire on his and the government’s 10622 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019 part to align B.C. more closely with the principles of the UN ers and Chiefs — proud Indigenous people and leaders in declaration, for our laws to be more consistent than they the province — come forward in a way that I’ve never seen are presently with the UN declaration, that those are specifc before. Tey broke down; we all broke down. objectives that reveal themselves and that the minister is try- It was, as we all know, the horrors of the residential ing to advance. schools legacy — the dark legacy of the residential school [3:35 p.m.] system — that led to the Truth and Reconciliation Commis- I understand that. I think if I’ve misstated that, the min- sion’s work and their Calls to Action that came from that. I ister can correct me. Tere are clearly other aspirations for think it’s incumbent on all of us, certainly in leadership roles, the government, more broadly, but with respect to the UN to take those calls to action very, very seriously. declaration, I hope that is a fair and accurate summary. Article 43, call to action 43, for the record: “We call upon What we have learned thus far is that the passage of Bill federal, provincial, territorial and municipal governments to 41 won’t create or bestow any new rights for Aboriginal fully adopt and implement the United Nations declaration peoples or Aboriginal communities in B.C. We have learned on the rights of Indigenous peoples as the framework for that following the passage and proclamation of Bill 41, the reconciliation.” UN declaration will, according to the minister, have no legal Tis is part of the impetus — it’s about justice — for gov- force and efect in B.C. ernment going down this road. Te legislation, as it says in We know — again, thanks to the minister — that today the Calls to Action, provides a framework for government. the UN declaration is available to the courts in B.C. for use as Tey’re calling for governments of all stripes to take this on. I a guide if the courts wish to use it as such. We have learned know our federal counterparts made a valiant attempt at that further from the minister that following passage and pro- the last time around. Hopefully, they will come back for that. clamation of Bill 41, the UN declaration will continue to It provides a path forward, a diferent way where we rec- be available to the courts as a guide, but the minister made ognize the rights and title of Indigenous people in this the point that there will be no mandatory or legal require- province, as opposed to a rights-denial approach. Te best ment for the courts to consider or apply its contents. We have tools for that, I think, are the articles within the UN declar- learned, thanks to the minister, that section 35 of the consti- ation. Tey will help provide government the pathway for- tution remains determinative on the question of Aboriginal ward to provide more stability in the province. More fairness rights in Canada. and more justice are key here, but also more predictability on We have learned this afernoon that steps by the gov- the land base and more certainty. ernment to implement the declaration have been underway We’ve heard that message also, loud and clear this sum- since 2017. We’ve seen, and discussed briefy, the mandate mer, when we travelled around to industry groups, busi- letters. We’ve ascertained that legislation is being amended nesses, local governments and a whole number of groups, to include references and incorporate elements of the UN too. Tey urged us, as the courts have told us time and again declaration — the Environmental Assessment Act, the Pro- over the decades, to move on with reconciliation, for all the fessional Governance Act. reasons I’ve just stated. I believe that Bill 41 provides us a All of this has been happening in advance of the intro- very measured, predictable way, a transparent way for us to duction and ultimate passage of Bill 41. We’ve heard just a accomplish that as government. few moments ago that the government has all of the legal authority required to continue its United Nations declara- M. Lee: At this juncture — just prior to diving further into tion implementation work and that Bill 41 is not a prerequis- this particular section, section 2 — by way of understand- ite to advancing that work. ing where the government has made progress in the last 2½ If all of that is true, if all of what I’ve just said is true, then years, the member for Abbotsford West has taken the minis- in fairness, Bill 41 strikes me as being somewhat less histor- ter back through the operative paragraphs, which, from what ic than, perhaps, many of us have been describing it to be. we understand, the Premier had put in every mandate letter But in fairness to the minister, I should provide him with an for the members of cabinet. opportunity to consider what I’ve said, in summarizing what [3:45 p.m.] we have learned today, about what the government’s posi- I had the opportunity, as I mentioned in the previous sec- tion is with respect to Bill 41 and these matters. Maybe I’ll be tion at committee stage, to discuss with the Attorney Gener- obliged to change my mind. al his similar mandate and the progress that has been made [3:40 p.m.] to bring in place the principles of UNDRIP. In response, 18 months ago the Attorney General had a Hon. S. Fraser: Te member gave his characterization of similar list of various initiatives, including the implement- the state of afairs with Bill 41. I will respond by giving mine. ation of some of the additional funding requirements to I don’t know if any of the members opposite attended any meet the expansion of Parents Legal Centres, some of the of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s hearings that recommendations that came out of Grand Chief Ed John’s happened with, at the time, Justice Murray Sinclair, Senat- report, for example. He also referred to the ten principles or Sinclair now — powerful events. I had friends and Eld- that the provincial government had come about to guide Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10623 public servants in their approach in relationship with Indi- of measures, of milestones? What’s being looked at to be genous people. Tese ten principles were very much in line accomplished against these principles? with the similar principles that the federal government had put in place as well. Te Chair: Member, those questions are probably more I just would like to ask the minister…. In terms of the appropriate for estimates than related to this bill. So perhaps operation of those principles, many of them at a higher level, you want to re-ask the question. let’s say, don’t have necessarily the same level of detail of the 46 articles of UNDRIP, but they’re similar in nature, in terms M. Lee: Tank you, Mr. Chair. Te reference to recon- of the broad themes around self-determination, reconcili- ciliation and the purpose that the minister, in response to ation, even the recognition of free, prior and informed con- the member for Abbotsford West, spoke very passionately sent. In the context of these principles, frst, to the minister: about is the signal to all British Columbians, including First what level of consultation was utilized for the development Nations in our province, about the importance of adopting of these principles? UNDRIP. We’ll get into what that means, of course, as we are doing in committee. Hon. S. Fraser: Tanks to the member for the question. I’m only suggesting that when we look at the mandate let- Concrete actions aren’t within the context of the bill, ters of the various ministers, in recognizing the mandate that just for reference. Te ten are draf principles. Tey are comes from the Premier of this province to implement the very similar to what the federal government did. Tey principles on UNDRIP, that the ten principles that were set were within the concrete actions, the document that we out in draf that the Attorney General had referred to pre- have with the…. Tey actually began with the previous viously, 18 months ago, presumably in response to my ques- government, with the leadership council. Tey are drafed tion as to what the status is of the government’s progress in the sense that they are adaptable. We will take input to implement the principles of UNDRIP, pursuant to those on them. Tey’re essentially a guide for the public service, mandate letters…. as we were embarking on this journey of reconciliation Te response I got back was: “Well, we’re doing these ten in a diferent way. So for the public service, this will help draf principles, and we have not taken the time to walk provide them with some of the guidance. through exactly what those ten draf principles are.” But I Hopefully, we’re not going get into detail on the ten draf think the minister agrees with me that they’re directly relev- principles, because that’s another discussion. ant and similar to many of the overarching principles in the articles of UNDRIP. M. Lee: I appreciate the response. I was really wanting to I’m only just trying to establish the kind of progress, the ask what the learnings might be from the implementation of action plan reference, because of course, the term “action these draf principles across the public service. How has that plan” is utilized in this bill. So only at this juncture, because been tested in terms of what the response has been like in we are talking about what progress has been made by this applying these draf principles? government over the last 2½ years to meet their mandates, [3:50 p.m.] which is really the area of coverage my colleague the member for Abbotsford West has invited discussion of…. Hon. S. Fraser: I’m hopeful that we will not be going I just wanted to take that opportunity to ask, in this con- down a discussion about the draf principles. Tey were put text in particular, with respect to these ten draf principles, in place as a prelude to what government is doing, as far as when the Attorney General refers to action plans, what that the mandate letter goes. But this is not really germane to sec- learning might be, recognizing that already the government tion 2 of our discussions here today on Bill 41. has been in progress to implement principles around UNDRIP. M. Lee: I’m only just trying to establish the progress that [3:55 p.m.] the government has been making against its mandate letters. It just appears that with these draf principles, they do out- Te Chair: I appreciate that, Member, and thank you for line a framework for reconciliation and how government rephrasing it. But we would like to keep the conversation and the public service have been working through that. regarding this bill, as opposed to questions that might arise Let me just ask…. In the discussion I was having with the at estimates. Attorney General, there was reference to the cross-commit- tee of ADMs, across ministries, chaired by the ADM with M. Lee: Well, I appreciate your response, Mr. Chair. I the minister here today, which would work closely with stat- think that there are opportunities that we, as Members of utory decision–makers in applying and looking at the prac- the Legislative Assembly, have to ask questions and to gain tical applications of these principles and makes reference to information from government as to understanding things. action plans around diversity and inclusion. I think, with respect, that response really talks about the When the ministries are looking at action plans, how does forum in which I’m obtaining that information. I think we that take shape, and what various forms are they in, in terms should just consider the subject matter at hand and the rel- 10624 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

evance of the subject matter. I would expect that that is the a bell at all. We currently have no protocols with other prov- actual concern about my question. inces on the UN declaration. So just if that helps. I would, again, respectfully submit that my question is actually relevant to the progress that this government is M. de Jong: Are there any agreements, memorandums of making. If you like, I can rephrase my question, which is: understanding, linking the province with the federal govern- what action plans, if any, to date have the government had to ment in that regard? implement the principles of UNDRIP? Hon. S. Fraser: No. Te Chair: Member, I would refer you back to questions that relate to Bill 41. If you would like to ask those questions, M. de Jong: Finally, on this point. In our discussions last perhaps it would be better under section 4 under action plan. day, the minister referred to the existence of a private mem- ber’s bill in Queen’s Park, in the provincial legislature in M. Lee: Sure. I will reserve my right, then, to ask those Ontario. Aside from that, is he aware of any other legislative questions relating to action plans on section 4. statutory attempts at implementation of the UN declaration in Canada? M. de Jong: As always, we are appreciative of the guidance from the Chair. I will say this, though, and hopefully, it will Hon. S. Fraser: Te Ontario model cited yesterday is the be received in a constructive way. only one that I’m aware of. We are endeavouring, I hope in a constructive way, to work our way through the legislation. Te intention here is M. de Jong: Ten maybe what we can do as part of our not to try and complicate this unnecessarily. We’re going to discussion around section 2 — it is, of course, a section that head into the declaration. We’ll try to go article by article. afrms the application of the declaration to the laws of Brit- I can’t guarantee that, at some point, we might not have ish Columbia — is take a look at the declaration itself and to come back to an article if something is triggered by the solicit the minister’s views and opinions on behalf of the gov- response from the minister, but we are endeavouring to ernment as to what it actually says and what it represents. As assist the committee in its work in as constructive a way as I’ve said a few times, we’re obliged to the fact that the declar- possible and not obstruct that work. ation is actually appended to the bill as an annex. I think that I had this question, just before we get to the actual UN was an appropriate thing to do, and helpful. declaration provisions. Earlier this year…. I was referring I’ll have a couple of questions about the recitals, if that’s last day to some of the submissions that the standing senate the appropriate term for a declaration of this sort, before we committee heard. In the course of one of those submissions get to the actual articles. I think my frst question, though, is: from the assistant deputy minister from the Department of can the minister confrm, for the purposes of Bill 41, where Justice, she made reference to a meeting that took place in the word “state” is used in the declaration, does this, in our December of 2017 involving all of the federal-provincial-ter- context, refer to the Crown in the right of British Columbia? ritorial ministers involved in the implementation of the UN Do we need to read the word “state” as intending to impose declaration. obligations on the government of B.C., as opposed to the Here’s what she said about the meeting. “At that time, they government of Canada? committed to continue to take steps and to discuss the meas- [4:05 p.m.] ures that would be needed to progressively implement the declaration over time.” Hon. S. Fraser: I think the member’s question was wheth- I’m not sure if the minister was one of the ministers er the term “state” represents the government of British Col- referred to, if he was present at the meeting. If he wasn’t, it’s umbia or Canada. In some cases, it’s British Columbia; in going to be a short discussion. My interest is whether or not, some cases, it’s Canada. Tere are diferent jurisdictions as B.C. embarks via other channels in Bill 41 and this sec- there. Canada has embraced the UN declaration, so the term tion on the implementation of the UN declaration, there is “state” could apply to Canada in some instances. But we’ve any protocol in place linking us with other provinces and built Bill 41 with a focus on British Columbia. the work they are doing or not doing, I suppose, around the implementation of the UN declaration. M. de Jong: Tat, actually, somewhat surprisingly, strikes [4:00 p.m.] me as a bit ambiguous. British Columbia has chosen to move Does the minister have any recollection of the December forward with a piece of legislation. It has attached a declara- 2017 meeting? Was he present? If so, were there any agree- tion that includes the word “state.” ments set in place? Are there any protocols that link British Now, I am not aware of any other subnational entities that Columbia with other provinces in the work of implementing have taken the step. We had that conversation yesterday. I’m the UN declaration? not certain — nor, I expect, is the minister — whether the United Nations, in creating the declaration, contemplated Hon. S. Fraser: I was not at that meeting. It’s not ringing legislative adoption by a subnational jurisdiction. But even Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10625 as an interpretive instrument, which the minister says this is entirety of the declaration? Is this government saying to Brit- and will be, following passage of this Bill 41, it is, I think, an ish Columbians, including First Nations, that there are parts appropriate question for which we will need a clear answer. of the declaration which this government will not be able to Does the government take the position that where the implement? Is that the message that the government is relay- word “state” appears in the declaration, the Crown in the ing here? Right of British Columbia is being referred to? [4:10 p.m.] Hon. S. Fraser: Within the declaration itself, there are art- icles that apply directly to the province, and we intend to Hon. S. Fraser: Te UN declaration follows a very broad take action on those. It’s actually laid out in the act in section range of subject matter, as the members opposite know, I 2(b), and we’re on section 2: “Te purposes of this Act are know. Some of those are of provincial concern and/or jur- as follows…(b) to contribute to the implementation of the isdiction, and some are of federal. I mean, some deal with Declaration.” Tat’s exactly what we’re planning on doing as military. Tat’s federal, right? So our intent is to focus on the a province. matters that are within the jurisdiction of British Columbia. M. Lee: Well, I appreciate that. In terms of the actual con- M. de Jong: I was not suggesting that we should read the tribution to the implementation of the declaration, presum- declaration or the passage of Bill 41 as altering the consti- ably, as this bill moves forward, the efort of the government tutional division of powers in Canada. I was asking what I of British Columbia will be to ensure that it coordinates with thought was a pretty simple and straightforward question. the federal government in terms of how they may continue In the text of the declaration, where the word “state,” to consider the implementation of a similar bill. which I take to mean “governing entities” where the subject I wonder, with the minister, when he refers to certain art- matter of the article relates to areas that constitutionally icles that are not within the jurisdiction of the province…. within Canada fall within the jurisdiction of the province of Apart from the one relating to military activity on the lands British Columbia…. In those circumstances, “state” refers to of Indigenous peoples — which, certainly, we can under- the Crown in the Right of British Columbia, the government stand the concern about — can I ask the minister to identify of British Columbia. If the minister is unable to provide clar- the other articles which, in his view, are not within the juris- ity around that, then we’re not of to a very roaring good start diction of the province? on this one. [4:20 p.m.]

Hon. S. Fraser: As a government, we are committed to Hon. S. Fraser: Te act itself contemplates us, as the prov- implementing the UN declaration on the rights of Indigen- ince, the government, working in consultation and cooper- ous peoples. I will try to keep this clear and simple. I thought ation with Indigenous peoples to implement the declaration I did. When it’s within the jurisdiction of British Columbia, within provincial jurisdiction, of course. Our government the “state” would apply to the term “British Columbia.” will work with — like all governments, I’m sure — their fed- We’re not usurping the state-ness of Canada. Canada has eral counterparts. embraced the UN declaration, and they’ve tried to bring it I note those ministers have been announced today at the into law. But they formally embraced the UN declaration. federal level. If I’m not mistaken, too, all parties, when ques- Tey’ve done so at the United Nations. I believe that’s where tioned prior to the election, said they would support feder- the courts have their interpretation of the UN as a tool with- ally bringing in legislation similar to what we’re doing here in their range. I believe it’s because the government of provincially, except for one party. So I’m anticipating a good Canada has embraced this. But the term “state” as it applies and healthy conversation with my federal counterparts. to us in British Columbia is where it’s our jurisdiction. M. Lee: I suppose this does invite the question…. I think M. Lee: I just wanted to follow on that response, just to the member for Abbotsford West and I were intending to ask a couple of questions here. One, if what I’m hearing from start to walk through the articles, but it does draw us back — the minister is of concern, is really around expectation. the minister’s last response — to section 2(b) of the bill. [4:15 p.m.] Tis was one question I intended to raise, which the min- Tere’s an expectation, of course, that with the way the bill ister has already started to address, which is: what is the is framed, it’s the application of the declaration as appended meaning of the word “contribute”? Whose responsibility is to this bill, as opposed to the application of the declaration it to implement the declaration? When we say “contribute,” insofar as it relates to the jurisdiction of British Columbia. what do we mean in the context of this government? Now, I agree that ought to be the case, because the bill can’t overstep the jurisdiction of this province. Perhaps that’s an Hon. S. Fraser: With respect to paragraph 2(b), the act implied understanding that ought to be made more explicit. contributes to the implementation of the declaration by In terms of the frst concern, it would be: what expect- requiring government to align its laws with the declaration ations do First Nations in this province have around the — you’ll see that in section 3, as we move forward — also to 10626 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019 prepare and implement an action plan, which you’ll fnd in terms of getting the necessary cooperation from the federal section 4, which we will get to, I’m sure, and report annually government to fully implement UNDRIP? on progress made. Tat’s the intent of subsection 2(b). [4:25 p.m.] Hon. S. Fraser: Again, the announcements for our federal counterparts…. It was just today. So I haven’t spoken with M. Lee: I appreciate that response. Tat’s something we’ve anyone at the federal government and the current confgur- canvassed at length, even having covered where we are in the ation with their current cabinet. Tey haven’t been sworn in bill to date. But I think what I’m hearing from the minister yet. I can’t speak on behalf of or even refer to what the federal is that there is, in his view, on behalf of the government, a government may or may not do, except for what I mentioned certain level of joint cooperation that may well be necessary before, with the commitments that were made pre-election. with the federal government. He gave a specifc response It doesn’t really matter what other governments are about the current understanding of where federal parties in doing. Our action plan, what we will be dealing with this federal government might be. here…. We’ll deal with what B.C. can do to implement the Recognizing that, of course, over the course of the lengthy UN declaration. and what might be a very involved implementation plan or action plan, this may cover successive governments at the M. Lee: I want to take this opportunity to summarize federal level. So I think it’s important for British Columbians, what the response from the minister is, then, in response including First Nations, to understand that when the minis- to the question as to what “states” means in the course of ter says the defnition of “states,” as that term is utilized in this declaration. Te minister has said that for certain art- the articles of UNDRIP, in some cases it refers to the federal icles, areas which are not provincial jurisdiction, it means government and in some cases refers to the provincial gov- the federal government. To date, for the purpose of this ernment, based on jurisdictional responsibility. discussion, we’ve only been able to identify one clearly, When I look back at the articles, certainly the one that and that is article 30. we have identifed to date at this committee stage is article Is the minister agreeable that article 30, on its face, at this 30, which, I think members would agree with the minister, juncture — before the efort that’s needed to be made on the does relate to federal jurisdiction in respect of military activ- action plan, as we look to adopt this bill and pass it in this ities not taking place on the lands or territories of Indigen- Legislative Assembly — is the one article that this govern- ous peoples. ment can identify that does not fall within its jurisdiction? Again, I think it’s important to clarify and to understand Terefore, when we look at the efort that’s going to be made for everyone involved what other articles in the declaration under Bill 41, that it would not include the implementation, do not fall within provincial jurisdiction. the review of B.C. laws against an article that clearly is not within the jurisdiction of this province, is that the one article Hon. S. Fraser: I think it’s important that the legislation that this government can identify? be read recognizing that it’s within the constitutional frame- [4:35 p.m.] work of Canada — section 35 and such. So the jurisdictional issues, I think, would be clear there. Te province has a role, Hon. S. Fraser: I want to make it clear that we’re commit- as does the federal government. I’m sure the member has the ted. If it’s within provincial jurisdiction, we will work with ability to go through the articles and determine that. We’ll our Indigenous partners throughout this process. If it’s with- work with Indigenous peoples as we develop our action plan, in the provincial jurisdiction, we are committed to taking and we have committed to implementing, within our provin- action over time to implement the UN declaration. cial jurisdiction, the UN declaration. M. Lee: I take that to mean that at this time the only M. Lee: Well, I appreciate that response. It just brings me article that government can identify clearly on its face that back to the earlier response that the minister gave the frst doesn’t ft within provincial jurisdiction is article 30 and that time I asked a similar question, which is comfort around there are no other articles that the government can identify where the federal government stands in its process to simil- at this time without taking further steps to analyze, which is arly implement UNDRIP. something we’ll get into later in this committee stage. As I understand from the minister in his response, there I just wanted to restate one other point that the minister is an expectation by this government that the jurisdictional did make in the exchange we were just having, which is that, considerations around how to implement or what the applic- again, this is another example where it is the government’s ation is of specifc articles in the declaration of the B.C. law. clear intention and view that the bill, Bill 41, including the Tat will be determined through the course of the action articles appended to Bill 41, ought to be read and applied, plan. It’s what I believe was the response I just heard from insofar as it applies to B.C. laws, within the Canadian con- the minister. stitution and legal framework. In this instance, the minister [4:30 p.m.] refers to the clear separation of powers between the feder- In doing so, is there any concern of this government, in Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10627 al and provincial jurisdictions. So I would just ask that he its parts. It makes…. Surely that is not the case. Surely, in reconfrm that that is the case. commending via Bill 41 in the way he has in the assembly and in speaking about the historic nature of the document Hon. S. Fraser: Just to be clear, this law must be read and the declaration, he would want British Columbians, all within the constitutional framework of Canada. I want to get British Columbians, to have a clear understanding of the that on the record. provisions. We are, as he has pointed out, doing this for the frst time. M. de Jong: I won’t ask the minister to respond, but hav- We are the frst in the country — arguably, the frst in the ing opened up the can of worms in the frst place…. Again, world. Surely he wants British Columbians to share in his the objective was not to try and trick anyone here. My col- understanding of the terms and articles of the document that league from Langara was…. are being presented to them to apply to the laws of British Te government is pledging to implement this document, Columbia. this declaration. It’s doing something that no other jurisdic- I’m sure that the minister, upon refection, will choose tion has done. Tere are, as a subnational government, con- to articulate whatever he was trying to articulate a bit dif- stitutional issues within Canada that are relevant. And the ferently, because I’m in a discussion that I really enjoyed essence of the question was, in making that pledge to people, and that I think has been very helpful. It’s certainly been that there is at least one part of this 46-article document that helpful for me and, I think, others. What I just heard is a the government of British Columbia constitutionally cannot bit astounding. be held accountable for. [4:50 p.m.] Article 30 deals with a subject matter entirely outside of What does the phrase, contained in the preamble…? To the government’s constitutional authority. Te question was look ahead, the minister should expect this question with merely to ask the minister, on behalf of the government, respect to other articles as well. What do these articles mean to identify whether there are any others. My sense is that to the government of British Columbia? If the minister’s in every other article there are areas that fall within…. It view is that those are inappropriate questions, we’ve got a touches on subject matters and areas, a portion of which fall problem, because that is the essence of what we are doing within the jurisdiction of the province, but it was an oppor- here. We are saying to British Columbians: “Tis is a declar- tunity for the minister, on behalf of the government, to say: ation. Tis is a historic moment. Tis declaration speaks to “Look, we have no authority to deal with article 30 and to fundamental rights.” identify any other articles that fall into that category.” It is the minister’s task, I would submit, to explain to all He has chosen not to do that in anything approaching of us — the committee and to British Columbians — what explicit terms. I guess we’ll move on. those rights, as articulated in the declaration, mean and what [4:40 p.m.] they mean to the government of British Columbia. I’ve gone We’re still on the preamble. And there is on…. on too long. I’m sure, upon refection, the minister will real- Tey don’t number these things. Tere are some colourful ize that that is not an unreasonable request to make of him verbs used at the beginning of each preamble. Te one I’m and the government. referring to is 11, from the end of the preamble, and reads: I’ll try again. In most of what’s in the declaration, although “Considering that the rights afrmed in treaties, agreements we have some questions about how they might apply in the and other constructive arrangements between states and context of British Columbia, what the UN is trying to say is Indigenous peoples are, in some situations, matters of inter- reasonably apparent on the face of the article or in the text. I national concern, interest, responsibility and character….” just don’t know what this means. What does that mean? Or what does the minister and the Te government is advancing the document and saying government take that to mean? that it needs to be and should be enshrined in B.C. law, in [4:45 p.m.] whatever way we propose to do that and that we’ve been discussing. I’ve just asked the minister, he and the gov- Hon. S. Fraser: Te articles themselves within the UN ernment of British Columbia…. I’m not asking him to try declaration…. Te declaration itself is a holistic document, to conjure up what might have been in the minds of the and the document must be contextualized for each circum- member states of the United Nations. He can’t do that, and stance, read in its entirety and not teased apart. We’re com- I’m not asking him to do that. What does this mean? I mitting to working with First Nations in British Columbia don’t know what it means. to reach agreement on how we will actually implement the “Considering that the rights afrmed in treaties” — we declaration based on that. Teasing apart each article contex- have treaties — “agreements” — we have those — “and other tually takes it out of the reason for it being. constructive arrangements between States” — B.C. being a state — “and indigenous peoples are, in some situations, M. de Jong: Well, that’s a bit odd. I think I just heard the matters of international concern, interest, responsibility and minister say that he really didn’t want to discuss individual character.” I don’t know what that means, and I’m asking the articles. Well, the document, the declaration is the sum of minister what it means to him and the government. 10628 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

[4:55 p.m.] or applying the declaration to British Columbia law, what is the minister’s view on what that clause means? Hon. S. Fraser: I want to reinforce that this is a holistic [5:15 p.m.] document, and it was written generally, within the context of all the UN nations in the world. Again, that’s why pulling Hon. S. Fraser: Just before, again, a point of clarifcation. it apart individually is problematic. We recognize that there Te bill does not apply the declaration to B.C. law as legal are international treaties that exist that may need to be con- force and efect, as we have established earlier. I think yes- sidered, but again, that’s part of the work ahead. terday we established that. I just want to make sure that’s in context also for the member opposite. M. de Jong: Be that as it may, I should place on the record In the response to this specifc question around the that I believe that British Columbians, into whose law this is second last preamble piece, I think we harken back to yester- going to apply in the way contemplated by Bill 41, deserve day. We’ve got some 35 Indigenous linguistic groups within to know what is in the declaration and deserve an analysis the province and 204 Indian Act bands. Te diversity there of it article by article, as troubled as the minister seems to is, obviously, very high. I think it’s just recognizing that. be by that prospect. I do wish him to know that that is the I will refer to — and we touched on this yesterday — approach we intend to take — to explore how these articles section 1, Interpretation, subsection (2): “For the purposes are relevant to British Columbia and to the British Columbia of implementing this Act, the government must consider laws to which they would apply. the diversity of the Indigenous peoples in British Columbia, We do that not to be meddlesome or mischievous. It particularly the distinct languages, cultures, customs, prac- strikes me as not just logical but necessary and that the min- tices, rights, legal traditions, institutions, governance struc- ister would want to welcome that. tures, relationships to territories and knowledge systems of [5:00 p.m.] the Indigenous peoples in British Columbia.” All right. I have theories on what this section of the declaration could mean, but my theories are not relevant. I’m M. de Jong: To the minister, he has pre-empted me, hap- not the government of British Columbia. I take it the minis- pily. I wondered if he might draw the linkage between that ter either does not wish to share those views or does not have particular recital and subsection 1(2). Tat was going to be any on what this language means. my next question. It’s clear that we have treaties. It’s clear that we have agree- [5:20 p.m.] ments. I don’t know in what case, if at all, those might be It occurs to me that in subsection 1(2), the government matters of international concern, interest or responsibility. has attempted, through the drafing of the bill, to highlight I’ll try one more time, and then I think we had agreed to take the diversity that exists within the Aboriginal community, a break for a few moments. Indigenous community, within British Columbia, and I Is it the minister’s and the government’s position…? Let think appropriately so. me ask that diferently. Can the minister, on behalf of the I wondered if the minister perhaps thought, though, in government, advise the committee: does British Columbia the case of the recital that we’re dealing with, it is broader have any treaties, agreements or other constructive arrange- than that and that in recognizing a degree of diverse circum- ments between British Columbia and Indigenous peoples stance confronting Indigenous peoples, the recital is also that are matters of international responsibility? I’ll try that. intended to recognize that the broader nation within which those Indigenous peoples live are themselves diverse and Hon. S. Fraser: Te answer is no. the product of diferent experiences and diferent cultural foundations. Te Chair: Tank you, Members. We’re taking a short It’s a clumsy way of saying sub 1(2) seemed to speak about fve-minute recess. diversity for Indigenous peoples. I got the impression that this recital was endeavouring to import into the declaration Te committee recessed from 5:03 p.m. to 5:13 p.m. some recognition that there are diverse circumstances for Indigenous peoples but also diverse backgrounds, cultures [S. Malcolmson in the chair.] and circumstances for the broader communities within which they live. M. de Jong: I’m still in the preambles, the recitals. Te I think I’m simply asking for the minister’s views on second-last recital prior to article 1 in the declaration reads whether he shares my view of that particular recital. as follows: “Recognizing that the situation of indigenous peoples varies from region to region and from country to Hon. S. Fraser: I think it goes to the point that the UN country and that the signifcance of national and regional declaration, in general, must be contextualized for each jur- particularities and various historical and cultural back- isdiction. Some 150 nations sign on to the UN declaration. grounds should be taken into consideration.” Tat’s what I believe the preambular statement was getting My question is a similar one. In the context of embedding Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10629 at. For B.C.’s context, we’ve identifed in subsection 1(2) a Hon. S. Fraser: It’s a really good question. Of course, there sort of B.C. context for that. I think that covers that. are challenges with any legislation, and this one is new. Tis Tere may be more, of course, but what Bill 41 does is it concept is new for any government. provides a framework for us to start working on this with An important aspect of the bill itself is that we will work Indigenous partners. Tat’s what we’ll see as we go further together collaboratively with Indigenous peoples in this through Bill 41. Tat’s part of the job ahead of us now. province to implement the UN declaration. By working together, sure, there may be challenges. Tere may be dis- M. Lee: I think it’s important. Tis is the one opportunity agreements. But the outcomes by working together will be that we have as an assembly to talk to government about how better. I think we’ve developed a good process to embark on it is approaching the implementation of UNDRIP through that, highlighted in the bill, as we move forward. this bill and how it will apply to B.C. law. I think it’s very important that we have this discussion. M. Lee: I appreciate the response. It’s a worthwhile chal- With all of the other sections that will follow in this discus- lenge, for sure. sion, there is no opportunity for this discussion. Tere will I would say that we will be spending time here on the art- be the tabling of the action plan and an annual report about icles of the declaration, but as the minister just referred to, the action plan, but there is no opportunity to understand there is understanding that we’re gaining here at the com- for British Columbians what the intention and the approach mittee stage about certain sections that are still upcoming in and the understanding of this government is at this juncture, the bill. So here is that example. Te minister referred to the prior to putting in place mechanisms to implement UNDRIP front end of section 3, which is “consultation and coopera- in British Columbia. tion.” I believe we’ll have more discussion about those terms [5:25 p.m.] and what’s intended there. Te discussion that the minister is having with the mem- I will only say, at this particular juncture, that it’s im- ber for Abbotsford West is, I believe, an example of consider- portant for this committee to understand what the gov- ation around this declaration itself. Te minister referred to ernment’s understanding and approach is going into that this being an holistic document obviously put together with exercise. Unless, of course, which was embedded in my nations over many, many years, reaching that historical time previous questions, there’s been progress made to gain a in 2007 where various nations signed on to this. better understanding with First Nations as to how they It’s been said that this is a document which is a principles- interpret these principles. But we’ll come back to that later, type document. It is not a convention of the United Nations. in section 4 of the bill. And the discussion that was being had, the recital around We need to know today, in the context of this discussion, section 14 and one that I will come to…. Sorry. When I what the understanding of government is. I would suggest say section 14, I mean that despite the fact that the recitals that there will be a great deal of challenges for this govern- are not numbered, if one numbers the recitals, the recital ment and their staf, ministry staf as well, as to the applica- that was being discussed, by my count, in terms of consider- tion of various articles and the recitals themselves in the con- ing that “the rights afrmed in treaties, agreements and oth- text of British Columbia. er constructive arrangements between states and Indigenous Let me just turn to an element which I think is indicative peoples are, in some situations, matters of international con- of that but just raises another potential consideration. Te cern, interests, responsibility and character,” is actually num- minister, in response to the member for Abbotsford West a ber recital 14. few minutes ago, before the break, mentioned international Te other one that I would like to speak to in a moment treaty in response to recital 14 and getting an understanding to the minister is recital 20, which is at the bottom of Bill 41 of that. I think that that’s a recognition that there are interna- on page 6, which is: “Emphasizing the United Nations has an tional treaties that might be relevant, let’s say, to the under- important and continuing role to play in promoting and pro- standing of this declaration. tecting the rights of Indigenous peoples.” If that is the case, when we look at the recital which is Before I go there, I just wanted to ask the minister…. Te two recitals down from that — that is, No. 16 — which nature of the drafing of this document is such that it is one starts with the words: “Acknowledging that the Charter of that is a principles-type document. It’s not carefully drafed the United Nations, the International Covenant on Econom- in an overly legal way in terms of legal terminology, by vir- ic, Social and Cultural Rights….”Afer that, they have a foot- tue of the fact that it is being adopted by many nations, and note to that recital saying: “See resolution 2200 A (XXI), nations need to apply it to its own jurisdictions or states, as annex.” Similarly, what follows is a reference to the Interna- we had further discussion on a moment ago. tional Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. What considerations does this government have and chal- Sorry, I guess there’s actually a typo in the bill. Or is there lenges does it see in terms of the interpretation, the actual not? I guess there are two references there. International application, of the language of this document as it moves for- Covenant on Civil and Political Rights is used twice, and the ward in its process? Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action is referred to [5:30 p.m.] as another reference — so no typo, just referred to twice. 10630 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

Are those documents being incorporated by reference in of ensuring the clarity around the bill is important, as we’ve this declaration? discussed, and that’s what we’re doing here. [5:35 p.m.] Te only aspect that I’m really trying to get at here is…. We had earlier a discussion regarding certain articles not Hon. S. Fraser: I would note — again, another good ques- being within the jurisdiction of this province and identifying tion — that this recital, the preambular recital that he’s refer- article 30 as being potentially the only one. Just looking at ring to, begins by acknowledging. It’s an acknowledgment. the international component, I think it’s important, as we’re It’s a contextual statement. looking at adopting a UN declaration, that it doesn’t bring On the specifc question, we’re not incorporating the other abilities or opportunities for international bodies to attachment in Bill 41. But the important part, I think, of have some greater line of sight into our province. this acknowledging, this recital, is the term “self-determ- Perhaps I can just ask the question one other way, which ination” and the right to self-determination. I think that’s, is: has there been any consideration by this government — again, the key concept that we are agreeing with here, but and, in fact, even any conversation it might have had with we’re not incorporating the attachment that the member the correct body within the UN — as to how the adoption of was asking about. this declaration will work in British Columbia? [5:45 p.m.] M. Lee: I just wanted to go forward, then, to recital 20. I Has there been any consideration of that? Is there any would just say to the minister, by way of reference…. I see expectation that the United Nations, vis-à-vis a couple of that the next recital, which is at the top of page 7, recital 21, the recitals that we’ve been referring to, expects to have any is also directly connected to my question. It ends with “in the ongoing oversight or role in reviewing the treatment of the development of relevant activities of the United Nations sys- rights of Indigenous peoples in our province? tem in this feld.” My question to the minister is: what consideration, if any, Hon. S. Fraser: I’ll just repeat. Tere’s no legal force in has the government done or had at this juncture about the efect. Tere is no expectation of a role of the UN. It’s not so-called extraterritorial reach of the United Nations into the role of the province. It was Canada that adopted the UN British Columbia, as far as it might be perceived to govern declaration on the rights of Indigenous peoples. the rights of Indigenous peoples in British Columbia? When I look at these two recitals, arguably, when it uses M. de Jong: Moving now to the articles. Tere are 46 of the words “continuing role to play in promoting and pro- them, if memory serves. tecting the rights of indigenous peoples” and it suggests that My frst question relates to article 2. I guess for the pur- there is development, which one could imply is ongoing pose of the record…. Tey’re not lengthy, so it’s worthwhile development, of relevant activities of the United Nations sys- to read article 2 into the record. “Indigenous peoples and tem in this feld, are we adopting, by virtue…? Are we, as individuals are free and equal to all other peoples and indi- a jurisdiction, inviting further intervention, let’s say, of the viduals and have the right to be free from any kind of dis- United Nations in how we continue down the path of recon- crimination in the exercise of their rights, in particular that ciliation with Indigenous peoples in this province? based on their Indigenous origin or identity.” I am certain [5:40 p.m.] that all agree with that statement. It is self-evident. My question for the minister. Te article speaks to dis- Hon. S. Fraser: As the member probably knows — I think crimination broadly based, but with respect to state…. he alluded to it — the UN had been working on this for a long time. And actually, Canada was at it from the very Interjections. beginning. Canada certainly signed on, and the UN did do good work with this document. M. de Jong: Are we good? I’ve said this before, but the bill does not give UNDRIP full force and efect. Tis is a declaration. It is not legally Te Chair: It’s a very moving question. binding in and of itself. As a declaration, it is not. Back to you, Member.

M. Lee: I appreciate that response and the additional cla- M. de Jong: Let the record show I brought tears of joy to rifcation from the minister, which is very helpful in respect the eye of the minister. [Laughter.] of the overall approach of this bill. Has the province undertaken any kind of a review or I have heard from others in our various communities in survey of the laws, the body of statute law that is enforced this province some consideration as to why it is necessary in British Columbia, to determine whether there are any for our province to adopt a United Nations instrument. We lingering examples of statutory or state-based discrimina- know, of course, that in the spirit of reconciliation, for all of tion that is lingering on the books? Has that kind of review the good reasons that were spoken to on frst reading, this taken place? is an important step forward. But I think the consideration [5:50 p.m.] Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10631

Hon. S. Fraser: We have not embarked on that review, framework, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and in response to the question. Te bill creates a process, as Freedoms and any legislation, whether federally or provin- the member knows, an action plan and such. I mean, it will cial legislation that builds of of that…. allow us to have those discussions. We all know that whether In the event that there’s any confict between the body or not bills or laws are explicitly discriminatory or not, those of international human rights legislation and declarations, things will be dealt with, I’m sure, throughout this process. as summarized in article 1, and any domestic Canadian Having the larger conversation, not just with Indigenous Charter documents or other human rights documents, I just people but with the people of British Columbia, about dis- wanted to confrm…. If the minister can confrm which will crimination and potentially having a way to try to fnd basically have efect. mechanisms to address discrimination in all its forms…. I think that’s one of the beauties of this law. It’s going to allow [Te bells were rung.] us that opportunity as British Columbians. Te Chair: I call this meeting into recess. We’re going to M. de Jong: Te reason I ask the question…. I think most go vote. of us, many British Columbians, are aware of the graphic examples, historical examples where statutory law had Te committee recessed from 5:58 p.m. to 6:08 p.m. embedded within it fundamentally discriminatory provi- sions in the case of Aboriginal peoples, whether it was the [S. Malcolmson in the chair.] right to vote or the ownership of property. My question was…. As the government gave considera- Te Chair: I’ll ask the member for Vancouver-Langara…. tion to implementing the declaration in the way that it has You got your question out fully. Is that correct? chosen to do with Bill 41, whether it had conducted any ini- tial survey of the body of laws and uncovered evidence of M. Lee: I did. Tey were considering the response. lingering examples of discriminatory language that operated against the interests and the rights of Aboriginal peoples…. Te Chair: Very good. You’ve had a good, long consider- [5:55 p.m.] ation. It sounds like that has not taken place and remains to be done in the future. Maybe the minister can confrm that. Hon. S. Fraser: Well, there were other things to do in the meantime. Hon. S. Fraser: Te member is right. Tat has not taken Again, the bill doesn’t give the declaration any legal force place. However, I’ve been in the MLA job for…. It’s my 15th and efect. So the laws of the land would still apply. year, and I spent most of my frst 12 years as critic for this ministry. I know, early on, I reviewed the Royal Commis- M. de Jong: I’m on article 3 now. Again, for the record, it sion on Aboriginal Peoples. It’s got to be 20, 25 years old not being overly lengthy, I’ll read it into the record. Article 3 now, but it’s still germane. It highlighted that discrimination of the declaration: “Indigenous peoples have the right to self- still exists within institutions, within governments, within determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine policing, within society in general. Part of reconciliation is their political status and freely pursue their economic, social addressing that. and cultural development.” As we go through the action plan, reviewing our laws and [6:10 p.m.] policies and practices, that sort of thing, to bring them in Te term “self-determination” has been used by the min- line with the UN declaration, it will be key to make sure that ister and the government extensively and, I think, in a pos- we are addressing anything that was discriminatory. Many itive way and in a way where the minister and the govern- pieces of legislation were built back in the day, 100 years ago, ment have endeavoured to articulate their desire to work that never anticipated that Indigenous people even existed in with Aboriginal peoples and First Nations in a constructive the province. I know we’ll fnd those. way. I thought, since it appears for the frst time here in the Tis is an opportunity, I think, a wonderful opportunity body of the declaration, that it would be appropriate to ask for us to have the conversation with British Columbians the minister to articulate on behalf of the government what about what it means to be free of discrimination — most it means and what the government believes that term “self- people take that for granted; Indigenous people do not — determination” means within the context of article 3. and fnd ways to address that and, hopefully, show the rest of the country and the rest of the world how to actually do that Hon. S. Fraser: It should be an easy question, but it’s for and make a better society for everybody. a nation to determine. I mean, that’s a strange answer to his question, because self-determination is about the nation’s M. Lee: I just actually wanted to go back to article 1 to right to determine what that looks like. ask one quick question to the minister. To the extent that we look at Canadian law and the Canadian constitutional M. de Jong: Again, within the context of article 3 of the 10632 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019 declaration, is it, as the minister just suggested, exclusively a ments to the exercise of that right to self-determination that collective right? Or is it a concept and a right that extends to it intends to…? Well, has it identifed any that it is able to individuals? share with the committee and that are a priority for it to deal with, going forward? Hon. S. Fraser: I think in the context of article 3, it would be the collective. Hon. S. Fraser: We didn’t identify any lawful impedi- ments, if that’s the right term, but sections 6 and 7 of Bill 41, M. de Jong: Te minister’s view is that in the context of as we get through to that, provide us some tools, enabling article 3, the reference to self-determination is a right that tools, to potentially help with self-determination — be able extends to a collective of Indigenous peoples. In the con- to recognize other forms of governance structures, that sort text of B.C., then, what would that mean? Would that mean of thing, outside of the Indian Act. exclusively the band level? How does that notion of a collect- ive right apply in the context or become relevant in the con- M. de Jong: Article 4 reads as follows: “Indigenous text of the British Columbia experience? peoples, in exercising their right to self-determination, have [6:15 p.m.] the right to autonomy or self-government in matters relating to their internal and local afairs, as well as ways and means Hon. S. Fraser: To harken back to yesterday’s conversa- for fnancing their autonomous functions.” Te last part of tion in section 1 and a defnition of an “Indigenous govern- that article, the last phrase, speaks to a right to the ways and ing body….”I think we all learned from that that this is about means for fnancing their autonomous functions. the ability to self-determine. It can be manifested in many Again, my question for the minister, on behalf of the gov- ways. It could be a band-and-council, a chief-and-council ernment, is: do he and the government read that, within the model. It could be hereditary. It could be a combination. It context of the declaration, as intending to create a positive could be a number of individual nations within the province funding obligation on the part of the state? coming as a collective. I don’t think we can defne that, per se. It is up to the Hon. S. Fraser: Te answer is no. nation to determine. Tat’s the whole idea of self-determ- ination. M. de Jong: So what does it mean, then? [6:25 p.m.] M. de Jong: Is that equally true of the phrase “political status”? Again, I’m not asking the minister to endeavour to Hon. S. Fraser: I’ll just remind again, because this seems speak to what may have been in the mind of the United to be an important statement for many of the questions, Nations or what may be in the minds of Aboriginal groups in that the bill doesn’t give the declaration a legal force and B.C. But I suppose it’s fair for me to ask what is in the mind efect. But we would be working with Indigenous peoples to of the government of B.C. when they see an article 3 refer- address the question of the fnancing and those issues. My ence to determining political status. What does that capture? opinion wouldn’t be the determining thing. We’re commit- ting to working with First Nations and Indigenous people. Hon. S. Fraser: If I’ve just got it right here, the question was: does my previous answer apply equally to political M. de Jong: For the minister restating what he has said a status? Was that the gist of the question? Te answer would number of times, I will restate: the nature of the questions be yes. that we are asking recognize and don’t question what the minister has said about the fact that the declaration, follow- M. de Jong: Last question, I think, on article 3 for me. In ing the passage of Bill 41, has no legal force and efect. Te the course, again, of studying this declaration prior to mak- minister has said that, and he may choose to repeat it period- ing the decision to implement it in the way that Bill 41 pur- ically as we move through this discussion. Tat isn’t at issue, ports to do, did the government, in reviewing the measure, and I’m not challenging that part of his contribution to this, identify any present impediments in British Columbia to the our understanding of the bill. idea of Indigenous people, Aboriginal peoples, having the We are now talking about the declaration that the bill pur- right to self-determination? ports to apply to all the laws of British Columbia. In the con- [6:20 p.m.] versations that will take place going forward, the consulta- When I ask the question…. As I said with respect to the tions with First Nations that are contemplated elsewhere in earlier article, when we’re dealing with rights, there may be the bill — that are taking place now, in fact — it would be impediments or encroachments that exist in broader soci- legitimate for a British Columbian to ask this question about ety and practices and impediments that are statutory, legis- an international declaration that has now been applied to the lative, and fall directly within the ambit of government. In laws of their province. asking this question again, I’m referring to the latter. Tat Tat is: in the minds of the government and the minister is: has the government identifed, at this stage, any impedi- presently in ofce, does article 4, insofar as it speaks to Wednesday, November 20, 2019 British Columbia Debates 10633 a right to the ways and means for fnancing autonomous because that is the lead-in language to section 3, which we functions…. Does the government and the minister con- will come to in this committee stage. sider that to be restricted to what we have called here I think it’s important, as we look at the articles, by way “own-source revenues” from economic activity generated of example, in terms of understanding the approach of this by the First Nation? government…. Although we’ve established that it is the [6:30 p.m.] view of the government that UNDRIP has no force and Or does it extend beyond that to include a right, because efect and that even when we look at the usage of the word the article speaks of a right to funding — “fnancing” is the “right” in article 4…. In view of the government’s position term used — that goes beyond own-source revenues gener- on this — that there is no right, because UNDRIP has no ated by the community and, by implication, therefore, fund- legal force and efect — then we’re into what we’ll look at, ing from another level of government. which is the process. I’m not sure there’s a right or wrong answer here, but there When I marry up the opportunity that this government is an answer. Tere is an answer where the minister says: “In will proceed with — and that is to, presumably, afer this the mind of the government, in urging the adoption of this bill is passed, go into the consultation and cooperation declaration and embedding it in B.C. laws, we believe art- with Indigenous peoples in British Columbia…. Tis is an icle 4 means the following, and the reference to fnancing for example of what we will look at in terms of how that will autonomous functions means the following.” work. It’s a tough job to be the minister speaking on behalf of Consultation is one thing, and I think we have a general government, but these are the days when the weight of that understanding as to what that is. Cooperation is something responsibility falls on the minister’s shoulders, and that’s the that is more than consultation. Perhaps, in the context of this nature of my question. What does the government say art- article, is it for Indigenous peoples to determine, as well as icle 4 means, with respect to securing fnancing for those government, how this article will be interpreted? autonomous functions? Te concern will be what expectation, even though we’re saying to each other here in committee that this has no force Hon. S. Fraser: I appreciate the question, but I would and efect…. Hopefully First Nations understand that, as note that the member was emphasizing, repeatedly, the they hear government’s responses to our questions in com- word “right.” With that, I just want to reinforce that the mittee here, in an efort to get greater clarity. bill does not give the declaration legal force and efect. I Does this mean, then, that Indigenous peoples will have just don’t want to have any confusion here. Te question their own interpretation of what this right is, as expressed in tends to be focused on a “right.” I want to make sure that article 4? Are we raising an expectation here for First Nations the rights here are…. to determine, in absence of a clear understanding and indic- Te bill does not give the declaration legal force and efect. ation from this government…? If it’s to be determined in the But when it comes to revenue sources, it could be own process, by virtue of section 3, when we talk about consulta- source revenues, as the member has suggested. I mean, it tion and cooperation, will they be determining, as well, what could be gaming revenues. Tere are all kinds of examples, I ways and means for fnancing ought this be? suppose, you could come up with, but it’s something we will To the minister: help us understand what the position of be discussing with Indigenous people, with First Nations, as the government will be in the face of that expectation. Is it part of this process, through Bill 41. Again, the process is laid the government’s expectation, as they have that consultation out in the following sections. and cooperation type of discussion…? What is the position [6:35 p.m.] of the government vis-à-vis whether this is to be determined as ways and means for fnancing through autonomous func- M. de Jong: Okay. Well, that’s helpful, in a sense. I think tions? Is that to include the funding from the provincial gov- what I heard the minister say is that he believes the article, ernment? as it is worded by the United Nations, is broad enough to include as part of the reference to fnancing not just moneys Te Chair: Minister, before I ask you to answer, am I get- generated by the Indigenous peoples — in B.C.’s case, Abori- ting from the member’s question that you are fnished with ginal or First Nations people themselves — but is broad section 2 and that we can move to section 3, which is the one enough to encompass conversations about funding, from the that refers to measures to align laws with declarations? provincial government, for example. Is that a fair statement? M. Lee: No, Madam Chair. I’m only illustrating by point Hon. S. Fraser: Yes. that the minister, in his response to the member for Abbotsford West, again reiterated that UNDRIP has no M. Lee: Te minister, in his previous response, mentioned force and efect, and that even though the word “right” is that it is to be determined, in efect, how article 4, in con- used here twice in this article, it doesn’t mean right. But sultation and cooperation with the Indigenous peoples in the fact of the matter is, as the government sits down with British Columbia…. I’m deliberately saying those words 10634 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 20, 2019

Indigenous peoples, however that is defned under section My sense is that there are a lot of examples today in British 3, by illustration…. Columbia about how that particular article operates, but my [6:40 p.m.] job is to pose the question to the minister. Does he agree? As the minister said, we need to look at the totality of this Can he summarize what he and the government believe art- bill. We can’t just look at articles in isolation. icle 5 is addressing? And then, thirdly, can he provide some examples to help illustrate what article 5 is referring to with- Te Chair: Member, thank you for your response. I’m in the context of British Columbia? really only trying to clarify where we are in the legislation. [6:50 p.m.] I’ll turn this question back to the minister. Tank you. Hon. S. Fraser: I see article 5 as pretty self-explanatory. I Hon. S. Fraser: Just a couple of things in response. Tere can throw some examples, perhaps. In my constituency, in may be diferent interpretations of these articles. Tis is why Mid-Island–Pacifc Rim, there are a number of Maa-nulth we’re going to work together. Tat’ll form an action plan, Nations, including the Huu-ay-aht First Nation, that have a doing this together with cooperation. Working together, treaty, of course, and Huu-ay-aht councillor John Jack has we’ll get clarity. We’ll get better outcomes. Tat’s what’s built once again been re-elected as the chair of the regional dis- into this bill. trict board. I would harken back to the Concrete Actions document, Again, examples here. We have examples, of course, in this the agreement that was entered into with the previous gov- place, of Indigenous people entering into the larger politic- ernment. Contemplated in that — in 2015, I think it was…. al realm in the province. We see that in Canada too. I think A new fscal relationship was built into that, agreed to as an those examples would be how I would interpret article 5 — important initiative with government and with the leader- the right and the ability to be able to do that. Tere are all ship council in the day back then. kinds of other examples, I’m sure, that the members could I’m assuming we’re on the same page on those. We took probably come up with. over that document, the Concrete Actions plan. We refned it, I know I’m being given the note to close out here for the of course, and we’ve included the UN declaration as part of day, but I just want to reinforce the value…. Bill 41…. I that too. Te fscal piece that we’re talking about, I think, in can’t understate the value of coming together in a difer- article 4 — I think that was almost contemplated by a previ- ent way, one based on respect and recognition, using the ous government. framework that we get from the UN declaration and work- ing together with that on these articles to help develop an M. de Jong: Te minister has restated something. So I’ll action plan together. Tat is going to be a great beneft to very quickly restate something that probably by now has this province, when it comes to justice, when it comes to emerged as a theme from the line of questioning. human rights and when it comes to economic activity — We are not asking the minister to endeavour to articulate less confict, more predictability and more clarity. Tis is a how Aboriginal peoples, First Nations, might interpret pro- process that we will all…. visions of this declaration. We’re not asking him to endeav- I know the members opposite have seen the response our to interpret what may have been in the mind of the from NGOs, from academics, from the business community, United Nations, to the extent that a body of that diverse from the B.C. Chamber of Commerce, from the B.C. Busi- composition has a single mind, when they created this. ness Council, from the mining sector, from tourism, from [6:45 p.m.] labour — across the board. Te approach we’re taking, I We are asking him to articulate, on behalf of the govern- know, is a bold step. It has not been done before. But the time ment that is urging its application to the laws of B.C., to is right to do this, and I very much appreciate the interaction share with the people of B.C. its views on what the document we’re having today and the ability to go through this bill in means? And I will say again that I believe that is not just a the way we are. fair exercise for us to embark upon but, really, our duty and With that in mind, I move that the committee rise and the duty of the government to share those views. report progress and ask leave to sit again. Article 5. I don’t have a lot to explore. Again, reading into the record: “Indigenous peoples have the right to maintain Motion approved. and strengthen their distinct political, legal, economic, social and cultural institutions, while retaining their right to par- Te committee rose at 6:53 p.m. ticipate fully, if they so choose, in the political, economic, social and cultural life of the State.” Hansard Reporting Services

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