Vol. 181 Tuesday, No. 10 25 October 2005

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Tuesday, 25 October 2005.

Business of Seanad ………………………………805 Message from Da´il………………………………805 Order of Business …………………………………805 Social Welfare Consolidation Bill 2005: Motion ………………………820 Salmon Fisheries Report: Statements (resumed)………………………820 Adoptive Leave Bill 2004 [Seanad Bill Amended by Da´il]: Report and Final Stages …………842 Adjournment Matters: Hospital Services ………………………………847 Health Service Reform ……………………………849 Security of the Elderly ……………………………851 805 806

SEANAD E´ IREANN to the Standing Joint Committee on Consoli- dation Bills, and which also provides for the ———— nomination of additional members, sets the date for the first meeting and allows for agreement on De´ Ma´irt, 25 Deireadh Fo´mhair 2005. more than one section at a time; No. 2, statements Tuesday, 25 October 2005. on the report of the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources ———— on salmon drift netting, draft netting and angling (resumed), to be taken on the conclusion of the Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar Order of Business and to conclude no later than 2.30 p.m. 4.45 p.m., with contributions of Senators not to exceed eight minutes each, and the Minister will ———— be called on to reply no later than five minutes Paidir. before the conclusion of the statements; and No. Prayer. 3, Adoptive Leave Bill 2004 — Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 4.45 p.m. ———— Mr. Finucane: Many years ago I attended a Business of Seanad. European conference accompanied by the late former Deputy Liam Lawlor and many others. An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from On that occasion I discovered what a larger than Senator Browne that, on the motion for the life character Liam was and what a sense of hum- Adjournment of the House today, he proposes to our he had. In all the years since, when I met him raise the following matter: that sense of humour never deserted him, despite The need for the Minister for Health and his being involved in tribunals. It is with a certain Children to indicate the steps that are being sense of sadness today that we all reflect on how undertaken to honour her commitment made he died tragically thousands of miles away. I in July 2005 to provide additional capital fund- extend the sympathies of my party to his wife ing to St. Luke’s Hospital, Kilkenny. Hazel and family. I have also received notice from Senator Bannon In that context, last weekend was a very bad of the following matter: weekend for a certain section of the media. Most of us were disgusted and appalled at the type of The need for the Minister for Health and media frenzy that seemed to descend on certain Children to give an update as to when she pro- people regarding the facts surrounding the case. poses to establish the regional health forums, In the past there have been many approaches to engaging locally elected members. this House from the media to relax the libel laws. I have also received notice from Senator Reflecting on the weekend, I compliment the Finucane of the following matter: maturity of RTE. Even though some in the House criticised RTE last week, it did not enter The need for the Minister for Community, into that type of media frenzy and did not specu- Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs to restore the late on the events surrounding Liam’s sad death. grant of 90% of the cost under the scheme of While representatives of the newspaper in ques- community support for older people as the tion have apologised, much damage has been reduction of the grant to \300 is causing an undue financial burden on old age pensioners, done. I very much regret that in a situation like and if he would create an emergency fund to this people do not empathise with the people be made available for security alarms to be fit- affected by such tragedy — the victims have wives ted when the urgent need arises. and families in many cases. Whereas all of us entering into political life accept that in the con- I regard the matters raised by the Senators as text of the “slings and arrows of outrageous suitable for discussion on the Adjournment and fortune” Shakespeare described we perhaps suf- they will be taken at the conclusion of business. fer at times from unfair criticism, we all try to protect our wives and families from this type of Message from Da´il. unfair criticism. I very much regret what hap- An Cathaoirleach: Da´il E´ ireann has passed the pened over the weekend. It is unfortunate. Land Bill 2004 without amendment. We know what is happening within the media. There seems to be extreme competition between the tabloids and broadsheets. If we are going Order of Business. down the road the media in England have gone Ms O’Rourke: The Order of Business is No. 1, down over many years, I seriously regret it. There a motion, to be taken without debate, which are probably certain pressures applying now to refers the Social Welfare Consolidation Bill 2005 establish a press council. My party would support 807 Order of 25 October 2005. Business 808

[Mr. Finucane.] has said this many times and is proven right again the establishment of an independent press on this issue. council. Over the weekend it was not right for Mr. Ms Tuffy: As a Lucan-based representative I Flood, as the ex-chairman of the tribunal—— express my sympathy to Liam Lawlor’s wife and his children on their sad loss. Mr. Lawlor was a An Cathaoirleach: The Senator was going fine. very courteous and likeable person to me and other public representatives. I have often come Mr. Finucane: All right, I shall leave out that across constituents on whose behalf he dealt with part. I abhor what happened over the weekend. an issue and who found him very efficient. He It was extremely unfortunate, it was terribly had a reputation of being a hard worker in the wrong and no man deserved that type of pub- constituency. licity. We all know the defamation laws do not That said, following his death it is time for a apply if a person dies but in this case a terrible substantial review and proper scrutiny of his pol- injustice has been done to his family. I am itical career, the good and the bad, because he appalled at what happened. was a major figure in politics over the past 30 years. As a local representative I crossed swords Mr. O’Toole: I agree with every word spoken with him over the years or did not agree with by Senator Finucane. On my way home on Satur- decisions he took with regard to planning issues. day night I called into a shop to get the Sunday It is important for the future of politics that we newspapers. I thought I had seen everything in examine fully the background to those decisions. newspapers but I did not believe the headline The newspaper articles, particularly the one I when I saw it. I actually thought it was a magazine saw first, disgusted me. I happened to be in Bal- sending up the Sunday Independent. I just could lina on Sunday and saw the Sunday Independent, but similar stories were carried in other news- not believe it. I looked at it, but did not buy it. papers. The story reported distracted from what I found it nauseating. My first thought was not we need to do in terms of examining the political whether it was true or otherwise, but how the career of Liam Lawlor. I found the story offen- family would be hit by it. My second thought was sive, even before we were made aware of the true to wonder where standards of journalism had facts, as did anyone I spoke to on the day. It was gone and my third was to do with the libel laws. offensive, inappropriate and hurtful to the family The central character is dead and the other per- and friends of Liam Lawlor. It was degrading to son is not a resident, so neither of them have any the dignity of those who died in the accident and comeback. We need to look at this issue and give to the survivor. I agree it hit a new low in terms some teeth in this area. of journalism standards in the country. There is only one way to deal with this matter That type of story is not the norm in our media, and that is through punitive measures. There is which is one of the reasons the public was so out- no way any action will be taken by proprietors raged by it. We expect more from our news- against newspapers making money, as long as papers. That said, this type of sensationalist jour- they continue making money. The way to deal nalism is becoming more of a feature of our with this is the same as with the licensing laws. A media, something that needs to be addressed. I publication found in contravention of the regu- agree with calls for a press council. It is important lations should be closed down for a period or cer- that the Minister bring forward the legislation in tain number of publications. It should be made this regard as soon as possible. The Minister is feel the pain. This is the only threat that will not seeking to bring forward legislation because work. of this story; it has been planned for some time. I agree with the point made by many, including The Law Reform Commission produced a report the Taoiseach, that trying to find the lowest com- on this issue many years ago. The Minister spoke mon denominator of standards in order to sell about his plans in this House as recently as newspapers is a race to the bottom. I have seen February 2005 but it is time for action. The Mini- other examples of this. Recently, I saw a photo- ster should publish the Bill now and engage in graph of my brother-in-law on the front page of substantial consultation with all interested par- a newspaper giving the fingers to his community. ties, including the media. The Oireachtas Com- He swears he was never in such a pose but that mittee on Justice, Equality, Defence and the photograph was doctored. This goes on all the Women’s Rights could be used as the vehicle for time and the only recourse people have is to take this consultation. a case, which is expensive, time-consuming, takes place long after the event and allows every aspect Mr. Dardis: I join with others in extending my of people’s private lives to be raked over the sympathy to Hazel Lawlor and the members of coals for the entertainment of the nation. It is the Lawlor family on the untimely and tragic undemocratic and wrong that people’s characters death of former Deputy, Liam Lawlor. Those of can be taken away in this manner. Senator Norris us who had battles with Mr. Lawlor in the past 809 Order of 25 October 2005. Business 810 always found him to be very good company and in a particular newspaper last weekend as we a man of great humour who was very easy to were. relate to, irrespective of any other defects in his I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Edu- personality. cation and Science to come to the House to Some of the coverage of his death in the Sun- debate the unfair discrimination that exists in the day newspapers was outrageous. Senator Tuffy is primary school sector. An example of this dis- correct in saying that the particular story in ques- crimination can been seen in the enrolment fig- tion should not have been published, irrespective ures for gaelscoileanna as opposed to those for of whether it was true. Any of us who had just ordinary national schools. The achievement of lost a loved one would have enough to deal with the same pupil-teacher ratio in all schools should without having to deal with the additional trauma be a priority for the Government. Both these caused by such a story. There was an enormous types of school do an equally good job of educat- lapse in basic standards of journalism. I spent a ing our future citizens and it is unfair that dis- considerable portion of my working life in jour- crimination exists in this area. The Minister nalism and one of its basic principles is that should explain to this House how we can uphold journalists check their stories. Excuses have now unequal arrangements in our schools in this era been made to the effect that the situation was of equal opportunities. This issue needs to be confused and the coverage of the story was addressed and, hopefully, the Minister can come rushed. These are not acceptable excuses; they to the House to explain what she intends to do in are unacceptable lapses from basic standards of this regard. good journalism. It is slightly tiresome to hear journalists lecture Mr. Lydon: I congratulate the Minister for politicians, clergy, doctors, lawyers and every Justice, Equality and Law Reform on responding other group in society on what their standards so quickly by stating that he would introduce the should be and how they should be accountable heads of a Bill regarding a press council following week after week when these same standards do the shocking coverage of the last hours of the late not apply to journalists. Liam Lawlor on Saturday night. I bought the newspaper in question at the Fianna Fa´il Ard- Senators: Hear, hear. Fheis, got through the first few lines and then returned it and asked for a refund. I will never Mr. Dardis: I cannot understand this double again buy this newspaper. As most people said, it standard and it is time that these lapses were was a shocking piece of journalism. One can only tackled. I welcome the statement by the Minister imagine the horror of Mr. Lawlor’s young son for Justice, Equality and Law Reform that he will receiving the news of his father’s death and then introduce a statutory press council and look for- ward to the early resolution of this matter. hearing a story that he was cruising the red light district in Moscow with a teenage prostitute — a I do not disagree with the comments made by Senator O’Toole but there is something more story without a scintilla of truth. It was horrific. It that can be done. was not even bad journalism — it was really evil. I am glad of one thing — they tried often to Ms O’Rourke: It relates to circulation. get him in real life, but he was too tough and he retaliated in his final days. He won the final battle Mr. Dardis: It all comes down to the circulation with the media as well. I suggest to those who wars between newspapers and the desire to make wrote the articles in question that they should go money. I stopped buying the Sunday Independent home and look at their own families this evening, at one point because of a particularly offensive and ask themselves whether they would write article in it about people with disabilities but, about their own families in the way they wrote unfortunately, I began buying it again. The best about the Lawlor family. May God forgive them sanction that could be taken against a newspaper for the shocking and terrible cruelty they have is to stop buying it. visited upon a widow and her children.

Senators: Hear, hear. Mr. Quinn: When I first heard about the stories which were published following the death of Mr. Mr. Bannon: I extend my sympathy to the Liam Lawlor, my thoughts were about how I family of the late Liam Lawlor. It is recognised would feel if my wife had to go through the same that 95% of Irish journalists are honest and thing. My heart goes out to Mrs. Hazel Lawlor decent people who are very annoyed by some of and the family of the late Mr. Lawlor. Not only the press coverage of Mr. Lawlor’s death. It is have they lost a husband and father, they have unfortunate that we must establish an indepen- had to deal with the publication of these out- dent press council to deal with a few rotten rageous stories. It is even worse than that, apples. The majority of journalists I have spoken however, because I am not happy with what has to were as appalled by the stories that appeared been called an apology. 811 Order of 25 October 2005. Business 812

Ms O’Rourke: Neither am I. ried by other media outlets. I remember saying at the time “My God, they did not have to drag that Mr. Quinn: The word “inaccuracy” was used in, did they?”. When I bought my Sunday news- twice in the supposed apology. Can one use the paper, my blood ran cold. word “inaccuracy” to compare what really hap- I will not defend the indefensible. I will not dis- pened with what the newspapers in question blat- agree with what has been said by other Senators. antly proposed and shouted from the rooftops? I A fairly full and unqualified apology has been agree with Senator O’Toole, who spoke about the published in today’s Irish Independent. The establishment of a statutory press council as a matter is being taken very seriously. An internal way of getting something done in this regard. inquiry into the publication of the story is Senator Dardis suggested something else we can ongoing. First, the story was factually wrong. do. It is not just a question of not buying certain Second, even if it had been factually right, it was newspapers. I recall that we were all upset about wrong in its treatment in every other way. a story on the Paralympic Games some years ago. The reporter who wrote the story resigned within Mr. Lydon: That is right. days of its publication. Advertisers threatened to withdraw their business from the newspaper in Dr. M. Hayes: It was insensitive, intrusive, lack- question if it did not dismiss the reporter. It ing in compassion and unfair. From all those per- seems to me that the power to damage circulation spectives, it was wrong. The editor, I presume, does not just rest with those who buy newspapers will answer for that in his next issue. However, — it is also in the hands of advertisers. I did not the damage has been done. It is an enormous own read Sunday’s edition of The Observer, which has goal, which we all recognise. not yet got around to making an apology, but I I have been working for some time with a gather that it contained a report that was much group in the industry on the question of a statu- worse than the stories in Irish newspapers. Not tory press council or a fully independent press only it is in our hands as legislators to establish a statutory press council, but it is also in our hands council which would be recognised in statute and as citizens and advertisers to ensure that action which would develop codes of ethics and codes of of the form I have mentioned is taken. privacy to deal with this sort of issue. We would I was disappointed to hear that the Taoiseach all welcome a press council. I can only join with has proposed that we will have military parades other Members in deploring what I regard as a once again. lapse in the standards of good journalism and journalistic ethics. Mr. Norris: Hear, hear. Mr. Feighan: I never met the late Liam Lawlor Mr. Quinn: I regard myself as a Nationalist, a but believe he was a very jovial person among republican and a believer in Irish independence. his colleagues. I was shocked when I opened the However, I do not believe that has to correspond Sunday Independent on Sunday last. As Senator with militarism. Tuffy stated, even if the story was true, it was still inappropriate. Reference was made to circulation Mr. Norris: Hear, hear. and what happened with regard to The Sun news- paper in Liverpool, when readers boycotted it. Independent Newspapers has changed Govern- Mr. Quinn: It reminds me of what we see in ments in this country through its editorials. Just North Korea and what we used to see in the Sov- as politicians have ethics, newspaper editors and iet Union. I believe it is the wrong way to go. It will cost votes, rather than gain them. If it is journalists should also have ethics. intended as a vote-getting exercise, a rethink is I am a newsagent and stock many newspaper needed. titles. I ask what the readership of newspapers is doing in this regard. It seems we cannot get Dr. M. Hayes: I too would like to express my enough of this kind of journalism. We should ask sympathy to the family of the late Mr. Liam ourselves whether we are prepared to boycott Lawlor. I knew him better as a hurler and I had newspapers. Unfortunately, the newspapers feed great regard for his abilities in that area. He was readers what they want. It is time somebody always very courteous and nice to me. I have an called a halt. We can pontificate in this House but interest to declare as a director of Independent I have no doubt that readers will return to buying Newspapers. While today is not a very good day these newspapers. We should ask ourselves what to be a director of Independent Newspapers in we want in life. this House, Sunday was a worse day. I first heard the news of Mr. Lawlor’s death on the BBC An Cathaoirleach: Eight Members are offering World Service to which, as an insomniac, I some- but fewer than ten minutes remain on the Order times listen during the night. That service of Business. While I realise Senators are anxious reported the story substantially as it was later car- to elaborate, I ask that they be brief. No more 813 Order of 25 October 2005. Business 814

Senators should offer apart from the eight to paper. Let us have a press council that some whom I referred. Members have been demanding for a long time. Let us have attitudes towards privacy expressed Mr. K. Phelan: It was with deep sadness that I in law because people, irrespective of whether learned of the tragic death of Liam Lawlor at the they are politicians, are entitled to be treated with weekend. Liam Lawlor had strong contacts with decency in terms of their private lives. my county of Laois. His late mother came from Scandals give rise to much hypocrisy and dis- my village of Donaghmore and his father came content and strange people want to get in on the from the village of Pike of Rushall, outside act. I heard one individual say that the news- Borris-in-Ossory. His uncle Paddy and his first papers should give \1 million to the cousin still live in the area. 3 o’clock Lawlor family. What rubbish. Liam The people of my parish of Rathdowney in Lawlor was not a saint and there is \ south County Laois and the people of County no reason to give anyone 1 million. There is, Laois are disgusted with the scandalous and scur- however, a need for decent attitudes. rilous behaviour of the media over the weekend. Senator Quinn referred to the Easter Rising If any Member of this House acted in the same commemoration. I was appalled by the way, he or she would have been chased out of Taoiseach’s remarks in Killarney on the resurrec- office yesterday. tion of the military parade. This is treating the voters with contempt. It openly suggests going Ms Ormonde: That is correct. into competition with Sinn Fe´in. Now that it has got rid of its guns, Fianna Fa´il will show it has bigger ones. This infantilism does no good. Let Mr. K. Phelan: I call on the Minister for Fianna Fa´il accentuate the positive aspects of its Justice, Equality and Law Reform to bring legis- policy rather than running around attempting to lation to the House to safeguard innocent people mimic the bully boys of Sinn Fe´in. I remember and their families. I offer my sympathies to Hazel 1966 and how unpleasant it was for people who and her family, Paddy and all the relatives of the were made to feel outside the box by the official Lawlor family. The Taoiseach stated yesterday republican—— that it is a race to the bottom. As far as I am concerned, we are at the bottom. An Cathaoirleach: I think the Senator has adequately made his point. Mr. Norris: I agree with many speakers with regard to the treatment of the late Mr. Lawlor. Mr. Norris: It is blasphemous to have the event What has happened is not that we have departed on Easter Sunday, which is about the resurrection from standards but that we have met the stan- of Jesus Christ and not the insurrection of Pad- dards of the worst British tabloids. We have been raig Pearse. going in that direction for years and I have referred to it in the past. However, politicians An Cathaoirleach: I call Senator O´ Murchu´ . were reluctant to take up this issue because they did not want to confront the press. I remember Mr. Norris: We should also remember how this the lickspittling from politicians when a series of will be perceived in Northern Ireland. meetings with newspaper editors were held in the Oireachtas. Now, perhaps, we have learned our An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has been given lesson and are prepared to be a little tougher. The enough latitude. Sunday Independent is a very mixed newspaper which contains some good articles. However, I Mr. Norris: Protestants in Northern Ireland always think of the character in The Pilgrim’s have been told they were Nazis by the President Progress, Mr. Facing-Both-Ways, who always and Fr. Reid. tried to have it both ways. On the front page of Sunday’s edition of the newspaper, there was a An Cathaoirleach: Senator Norris, please con- rather sentimental, schmaltzy piece by Barry clude. I call on Senator O´ Murchu´ . Egan in which he recounted how Liam Lawlor once loaned him an umbrella. In addition to Mr. Norris: Now there is this militarism. It is keeping Mr. Egan dry, this act apparently rubbish and the Taoiseach should at least move covered a multitude of sins. At the end of the the event to Easter Monday. article Barry Egan wrote, “Perhaps those who savaged him when he was alive will be kinder to Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : What we have discussed him now he’s dead”. This was just under the most of this afternoon is an abuse of power at its headline that misinformed people that Mr. most extreme. I cannot understand how any Lawlor had been killed in a red light district in human being, with a modicum of sensibility, the company of a teenage prostitute. What about could deliberately inflict such hurt and torture on the rights of that woman, who I understand is 36 a vulnerable family. Is the media saying it has years of age? She has been traduced by this news- different standards than those it demands from 815 Order of 25 October 2005. Business 816

´ [Labhra´sOMurchu´ .] time somebody in the media must be destroyed, people, particularly those in public life? If it in terms of accountability, for what they did last claims it is not exercising different standards, the Sunday. Words do not mean anything in this case editor of the Sunday Independent must seriously as the hurt is too deep. If the journalists’ main consider his position. If he does not, the credi- objective was to sell papers they have cost their bility of the media at large will be at stake. Any profession the respect of the whole nation. Minister who abused power to the extent the Sun- day Independent has, would have his or her resig- Mr. Glynn: There is a saying that the pen is nation demanded immediately. mightier than the sword. In this case the pen was On many occasions I have raised questions used as a sword and thrust into the open wound about the media. The NUJ once wrote to the of the grief and tragedy of the Lawlor family. It Committee on Procedure and Privileges com- is journalism of the sewer. When I came into this plaining about me. The letter, in turn, had to be Chamber in 1997 the former Senator Willie circulated to every Member. Unfortunately for Farrell repeatedly called for a press council. Some the NUJ, it got it wrong and apologised. If the weeks ago Senator Mansergh and I talked about NUJ is so sensitive about comments made in the a story in a sister paper about councillors and Chamber, which were never going to be pub- their quest for a pension. A journalist submitted lished, how does it feel about the particular case a piece to the Irish Independent balancing the we are discussing? If we do not have resignations, points made in the original article. Was it pub- then all the apologies are empty. lished? No. If the truth gets in the way of a story the story wins every time. Dr. Henry: In the past, the freedom of the press meant people had the freedom to read what was Mr. Moylan: I associate myself with the true. Nowadays, the freedom of the press appears expressions of sympathy with the wife and family to be about putting anything into circulation of Liam Lawlor. I knew Liam for quite some which will improve the figures for a newspaper’s time. I met him on the hurling field where I sales. I share the concerns about what was said of hurled against him. I always counted him a hard Liam Lawlor. However, an apology is owed to but fair man whether it was in politics or on the the young Ukrainian woman involved. This point hurling field. One wonders what lies ahead for has not been made. She has a professional life to the reporter involved. The editor comes from a pursue and I ask the Leader to let it be known family in my own county with a long tradition in that the Seanad considers the newpapers to be journalism. I have always seen that family as remiss in not making an apology to her as well. being honest and decent in the field of journal- ism. Senator Phelan mentioned “a race to the Dr. Mansergh: I echo the messages of sym- bottom” and journalism has sunk to the bottom pathy to the Lawlor family. Liam Lawlor was in this instance. I hope that, assuming that rules active in politics for 20 years, although not as an exist within the NUJ, someone will be suspended office holder. He did many good things and per- from that newspaper. If this does not happen, the formed valuable services notwithstanding what is union should disband immediately. It is a sad day under discussion in the tribunals. I will refrain for journalism. from commenting directly on what was written in the Sunday Independent last week but proprietors Ms O’Rourke: The acting leader of the Oppo- and boards of management have a general sition, Senator Finucane, paid tribute to Liam responsibility for what appears in their news- Lawlor, as he knew him over the years. He men- papers. It is right for journalists and newspapers tioned in particular his experience of Mr. to point out and highlight abuses of power when Lawlor’s personality and humour. The Senator they occur on the part of governments or poli- stated that last weekend was a bad weekend for ticians but we cannot be afraid of them, no matter certain sections of the media but that RTE exhib- how rich or powerful, if they abuse their consider- ited maturity in not entering the arena of scandal able power. To borrow a phrase, I suggest there mongering. Even prior to this incident, the Mini- should be no more appeasement. ster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, had promised legislation on Ms Ormonde: I extend my sympathy to Hazel the establishment of a press council. He will and members of Liam Lawlor’s family. I knew hasten this legislation now, and I call on the Mini- Liam for many years, having served with him on ster to bring it to this House first, as he is wont the old Dublin County Council. What happened to do with many Bills. last Sunday was hurtful and it made me cry to Senator O’Toole agreed with Senator Finucane think of the effect on his family. The media have and argued that the newspaper in question could reached an all-time low and have debased the be taken off the market as punishment. We could profession of journalism. They have destroyed just stop buying it. We are a small number of good people. In the past they have destroyed people, but if people have strong feelings on the many politicians and people in high places. This issue, such a boycott should occur. I agree with 817 Order of 25 October 2005. Business 818

Senator Tuffy’s statements on the news story, and widow coped with the incident and the reports, even if every word of the horrible report in ques- and I am sure she is under medical care. Can one tion was true, it should never have been printed. imagine how she reacted on seeing a large head- line in black print with three sub-headings under- Ms Tuffy: Yes. neath, each a massive lie? Senator Quinn mentioned the family experi- Ms O’Rourke: The Senator should be com- encing loss followed by outrage. I agree with his mended on such a clear statement. The man was statements on the apologies, which contained dead only a short time and printing such an statements on inaccuracies when the entire report article was an awful action. We expect more from was a flagrant abuse. Last night, a female editor newspapers. While we are criticising newspapers, of another newspaper which had followed the one newspaper that we have often commented lead appeared on “Questions and Answers”. She upon, Ireland on Sunday, had the correct story. was quite complacent and content with her apol- ogy. I could not believe it. Mr. Norris: That newspaper is not in a position Senator Quinn was disappointed at the idea of to teach anybody any standards. a military parade. While he claimed it was for electoral gain, that is not correct. Our Army is An Cathaoirleach: The Leader without for peacekeeping. interruption.

Ms O’Rourke: I am just stating what occurred Ms White: Hear, hear. on Sunday. The newspaper’s report was abso- lutely accurate, down to describing the occu- Ms O’Rourke: Our Army is not for war. The pation of the woman in question as a legal sec- Constitution refers to O´ glaigh na hE´ ireann, retary and her age. The report came from a Daily which is the properly constituted Army of the Mail correspondent in Moscow. The statement Republic of Ireland. It is incorrect to suggest that that the Lawlor family could not be contacted was the Taoiseach would make this proposal for the untrue. The Taoiseach easily made direct contact sake of votes or that it would display military with the widow of Mr. Lawlor. These newspapers might as though it was ready to go off to fight. did not try as they wanted a salacious story to We have a peacekeeping Army. I am disap- be published. pointed that the Senator took that view. The Taoiseach meant that it is a special event and I Senators: Hear, hear. am sure it will be welcomed by everyone, but we must wait to see. Mr. Norris: Just as Ireland on Sunday usually Senator Maurice Hayes expressed his sympathy does. It is the first time it has got anything with the Lawlor family. He suggested that correct. Members should work on the idea of an indepen- dent press council and that the legislation should An Cathaoirleach: The Leader without be brought before the Seanad. Senator Kieran interruption. Phelan’s reference to Liam Lawlor’s County Laois connection was interesting and I thank him Ms O’Rourke: I am entitled to state what I for mentioning it. read, and we have already heard from Senator Senator Feighan, who, among other things is a Norris. Senator Tuffy finished by stating the need newsagent, was shocked last Sunday, as were all for appropriate legislation as soon as possible. Members. He asked whether Members were pre- Senator Dardis expressed his sympathy to the pared to boycott particular newspapers. I do not Lawlor family. I could assume this sympathy from believe that could be the case if all Members all Senators, but those who spoke made points in express shock and outrage in the House but then varying degrees of intensity and I wish to purchase them the following week. acknowledge this. Senator Dardis stated that the newspaper reports were a lapse in the basic stan- Senator Norris noted how the standards of the dards of good journalism. British tabloid newspapers have been reached Senator Bannon argued that 95% of journalists and suggested that a press council be established. are decent people, and there is no doubt about I hope so. He stated that he was outraged by the this. He stated that the Minister for Education resurrection of the military parade. I speak for and Science, Deputy Hanafin, should rectify an the Taoiseach and my party in this House and I inequality in the pupil-teacher ratio in gaelscoile- am proud that this step will be taken. I am proud ´ anna compared to the pupil-teacher ratios in ordi- of Oglaigh na hE´ ireann, which is the constitution- nary primary schools. Senator Lydon labelled the ally established Army of the Republic of Ireland. reports in the Sunday newspapers as shocking and evil pieces of journalism. He pointed out how Mr. Norris: This action shows gross insensi- anybody’s family would feel if such a report was tivity to other sections of the population of which published. I do not know how Mr. Lawlor’s we should be aware. 819 Salmon Fisheries Report: 25 October 2005. Statements (Resumed) 820

Dr. Mansergh: Every democracy—— an affront to Liam Lawlor’s widow and children to be faced by this reporting. His widow will have An Cathaoirleach: The Leader should be per- a long, hard, empty and arid road to face but to mitted to reply without interruption. face it with those headlines constantly in her mind will be an abhorrence. I thank the Members of Ms O’Rourke: I sit mute, listen to all Members this House from all sides who spoke so feelingly and take my notes. I am entitled to reply. and memorably on this issue and the Cathaoir- leach for allowing such a debate. Senators: Hear, hear. Senators: Hear, hear. Ms O’Rourke: I will reply on this issue. I am extremely disturbed that both Senators Norris Order of Business agreed to. and Quinn have taken the view that it will be a militaristic parade. It is a commemorative parade Social Welfare Consolidation Bill 2005: Motion. for people who died to establish this State. Ms O’Rourke: I move: Mr. Norris: It is a vote catching exercise and That, notwithstanding anything in Standing nothing else, as both Senator O’Rourke and the Orders— Taoiseach are aware. (a) the Social Welfare Consolidation Bill 2005 be referred to the Standing Joint Com- An Cathaoirleach: Senator Norris should allow mittee on Consolidation Bills; the Leader to reply without interruption. (b) the first meeting of the Committee to Ms O’Rourke: I have summarised Senator consider the Bill to be held on Wednesday, Norris’s contribution. 26 October, 2005; and Senator O´ Murchu´ called for the resignation of (c) in the case of the Social Welfare Con- the editor of The Sunday Independent. Senator solidation Bill 2005 — it shall be an instruc- Henry, along with all Members, had concerns for tion to the Committee that it has power to the woman in question who was earning her living group sections together for the purposes of as a professional woman and rearing her family. debate and to dispose of more than one She has been called names. While Members do section (and any amendments thereto) by not know this young Ukrainian woman, we know one Question, which shall be put from the enough to be sure she was about her proper pro- Chair. fessional duties. She has not received any apolo- gies, such as they are. Senator Mansergh noted that directors, boards of management and owners Question put and agreed to. of newspapers have responsibilities, no matter how powerful they appear to be. He stated that Salmon Fisheries Report: Statements they should be aware of how Members feel about (Resumed). these matters. I agree with him. While Senator Maurice Hayes quite correctly Mr. MacSharry: I will help myself and others declared his interest as a director of Independent recap. In welcoming the report, I was rebutting Newspapers, he disassociated himself from what an outrageous attack by Senator Ross on the has happened and offered his sympathy to the Minister of State at the Department of Communi- Lawlor family. I agree with him. Senator cations, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Mansergh made the point that there should be no Gallagher. There is no need to go over this more appeasement of journalists and newspapers. ground other than to say that was not representa- He is correct. He noted that the profession of tive of most of the contributions in the House and journalism had been debased and the respect of certainly not in keeping with the recommend- the nation lost. ations of the report, which I wholeheartedly wel- Senator Glynn called what happened sewer come. The move to a single stock management journalism. He noted that a balancing article on and the acknowledgement that the Department is councillors written by a journalist had been sub- the best body to determine how it should be mitted but not printed. Senator Moylan spoke of done, such as through legislative improvements, his knowledge of and familiarity with the late management, reorganisation and the functions Liam Lawlor on the hurling pitch. It was relating to the compensatory and set-aside important that it was noted. Senator Ormonde schemes, are good ways forward. It is extremely expressed sympathy to the Lawlor family. She important that this is not funded just by the had served with Liam Lawlor as a member of the Government or EU but that the wide variety of old Dublin County Council. beneficiaries, including interest groups, conser- There will be time in a week or so to debate vation groups and the tourism industry, contrib- the tribunal and examine related matters but it is ute to it. 821 Salmon Fisheries Report: 25 October 2005. Statements (Resumed) 822

The joint committee recommended: “The more resources must be channelled to habitat Department of the Environment, Heritage and development and restoration. This, in turn, will Local Government should prepare a report on increase the production of juvenile salmon. the predation of seals on the salmon stocks.” I welcome this report. It goes a considerable Senator Kenneally referred to this matter pre- way towards achieving the protection of the fish- viously when he mentioned that we do not have ery industry, to which we all aspire. The only all of the facts in this situation. Following on from matter for debate is how to go about it. I pay the Minister of State, I said we cannot take knee- tribute to Senator Kenneally, who was a member jerk reactions. I would be interested to see a of the sub-committee that published this report, study carried out on the effects of seals and cor- for the all-inclusive way in which it was done. The morants, as their effects on smolts heading out to recommendations are extremely good. I welcome sea seem to be very serious according to my own the fact that the Minister of State has referred it research and the report’s findings. The Minister to the Nation Salmon Commission for its recom- of State’s referral of the report to the National mendations. I look forward to hearing those in Salmon Commission is a positive move. It is the due course as we take this matter further. most representative relevant organisation and On single stock management, I visited the incorporates all aspects from the Loughs Agency, Loughs Agency in Derry and toured both the all elements within the industry, the conservation Foyle and Carlingford operations. As we seek to groups and Fa´ilte E´ ireann. improve the situation, perhaps we could look I wish to touch on a number of issues. First and towards some of steps it took and seek to repli- perhaps most important, more needs to be done cate some of its actions. I wish the Minister of regarding the marine survival of salmon. All the State well in his endeavours on behalf of all of us. relevant agencies, including the Marine Institute, other scientific groups, the fisheries boards and Mr. B. Hayes: Among such illustrious company the relevant Government agencies must focus on and people with considerable expertise on all the threats to the marine survival of salmon. sides of the House, I feel like a small salmon From my inquiries into this issue, it appears this because I am not as expert or as knowledgeable area does not receive enough attention and more as my colleagues. I welcome the Minister of State needs to be done. We all agree stocks are becom- to the House. I read with interest his contribution ing seriously depleted. We can see that is a to the House last week and I congratulate the serious issue from the report and from all the sub-committee on its report. Senators Kenneally, available statistics. However, no more pressure Dardis and Finucane were part of that committee. has been put on the fishery industry during the I congratulate them on their work to date on this past five years than during the previous ten years. issue. This has become a controversial issue of Various actions have been taken in that period, late. However, many people realise the issue has such as shortening the netting season, anglers’ been live for the past 30 or 40 years. quotas and tagging systems. In my view the The time for action is now. Salmon stocks is Marine Institute must focus heavily on the sur- the serious issue in this matter. The Minister of vival of salmon. State will send the report to the National Salmon We must establish what happens to the smolts Commission. I understand a decision might not en route to the feeding grounds, what happens to be made until 2007 or 2008. At some time the them at the feeding grounds and what happens to bullet must be bitten on this issue and a decision salmon on return to Irish coastal waters other must be made sooner rather than later. than problems encountered through drift netting. The salmon fish is part of Irish culture. It is If we can get answers to these questions we would part of our mythology, literature, our story. If be in a position to find solutions to enhance the people think of a fish that is synonymous with survival of salmon. We would achieve a great deal Ireland, it is the salmon. We must frame policies in pursuit of protecting the fishery industry as a to maximise the stocks throughout Ireland; this whole. will ensure that the species continues to flourish Protection of our inland waterways, lakes and and that tourism in coastal communities and rivers is essential. Water quality has deteriorated throughout the country is nurtured and and the imminent water framework directive will developed. No other fish goes to sea and returns assist in this matter. However, looking to the to its birthplace to spawn. Given that marvellous future and leading from the front in taking steps story, which children particularly enjoy, we have to improve water quality would further enhance a responsibility to ensure that the fish of Ireland the situation. remains strong in this country. Habitat degradation is caused by river erosion In many parts of the country, angling tourism and other factors, such as irresponsible farming is underdeveloped. People who come to fish in which was accused of causing habitat degradation Ireland come to catch. I sometimes spend part of in the past. The REP scheme has improved the the summer in Senator Daly’s county, and given situation in terms of appropriate fencing and the that he is a former Minister with direct responsi- protection of river banks. More must be done and bility for this matter he would be more expert 823 Salmon Fisheries Report: 25 October 2005. Statements (Resumed) 824

[Mr. B. Hayes.] rivers or potential fishing grounds, are developed than I. Fish stock is an issue in many parts of to their full potential. County Clare and anglers no longer come to I accept that this is a complicated issue. The some parts of rural Ireland. If we are serious Minister recently spoke about seals, which are the about developing fishing tourism and ignore the major predatory competition for salmon regional imbalances, we must be serious about returning to our shores. As the Minister said, we protecting this and all fish species. Anglers who must address that issue. I am not sure what one visit Ireland expect to catch fish. Recent reports can do about global warming, the rising tides and on the quantity of species and volume of fish have the ongoing seal problem, but we can do some- been discouraging. thing about drift netting licences and the amount I thank Senator Kenneally for his expert advice permitted to be caught. Ireland is in a minority of on an issue relevant to this debate. A supermar- EU countries that still permit drift netting. I ask ket near my home recently claimed to sell wild the Minister of State to move on the recommend- salmon in the month of October. I am not sure ations of the report and I hope a decision is made how this could happen. Wild salmon is generally sooner rather than later and is not left to drift, for sale in late spring and early summer. Unless excuse the pun, to the National Salmon these salmon showed particularly strong gill Commission. movement over September and October, getting into the River Liffey and beyond, which I doubt, Dr. Mansergh: This is a classic case of a debate there is a labelling issue here. I do not know how which is not being fully acknowledged on all supermarkets and shops can continue to get away sides. Two substantial interests are involved, one with labelling a product “wild” when it cannot be of which wants to close down the other. Much of wild, because it is sold in October. the debate has been unbalanced. On the views expressed in the constituency in which I live, the Mr. Kenneally: John West? report refers to the small snap net fishery in the south east. I do not think anyone is suggesting that it has a serious impact on salmon reaching Mr. B. Hayes: It was not in a tin. Labelling is the spawning grounds. As an inland county, such important. I have also noticed the craze for representations as I get are from anglers’ associ- organic salmon and often wonder how that can ations calling for drift netting to stop. be sold as organic. Local authorities in County As legislators we must take account of the Dublin have launched a number of river stocking national interest as well as the local interest. We initiatives in recent years. This is welcome. Fish- are being asked to balance the interests of people, ing is not just a gentrified activity for rural the coastal fishermen, who obtain a very substan- Ireland. It has been part of Dublin life for centur- tial part of their livelihood from fishing and which ies. Pollution of the Liffey has curtailed the has been an industry there for generations, number of people who fish in Dublin. I ask the against those of a leisure activity. Tourism is, of Minister of State to support the local authorities course, one of our most important industries and in Dublin who are trying at a preliminary level angling is part of the tourism product. to restock the rivers and ensure that recreational Like the Minister, I walked past a few hundred fishing is enjoyed by everyone. demonstrators in Killarney at the weekend, Action must follow debate. We must make a including one or two from County Tipperary. decision on drift netting. This problem is not Undoubtedly the populist approach is to treat it recent but has developed over the past 40 or 50 as an all or nothing, black or white issue but the years. Some fishermen, if one counts the number Minister and the Government are within their of salmon they catch on a regular basis, take ten rights to take a more nuanced view. Government times the number of salmon for which they have must balance conflicting interests where each of a licence. The licence system cannot be policed those interests is legitimate. I believe the Minister for salmon. The Minister of State has yet to is trying to do that, conscientiously and to the decide whether he supports a compulsory or vol- best of his ability. untary buyout. Where an industry is depleting a It is clear from the expert material that the sustainable commodity there are examples of the quantity of salmon is not solely a function of drift Government accepting the principles of a buyout net fishing. Indeed, it is quite possible that if it and giving compensation. If we are serious about were to stop from next year, the salmon stocks arresting the tide of salmon stock depletion, we might show little difference because of other must instigate a buyout. My party supports a vol- factors involved, such as pollution and seals. In untary buyout to ensure that the issue of salmon addition, the science on this, as on so many other stocks is addressed. The tourism revenue from things, is imperfect. We do not fully understand this could be considerable particularly in parts of the causes for fluctuations in catches. I do not rural Ireland. It would help develop angling tour- wish to deny that there is prima facie a problem. ism and ensure that many towns and small vil- This has been addressed in recent years by lages in rural Ireland, particularly those close to reductions in drift netting and it might be neces- 825 Salmon Fisheries Report: 25 October 2005. Statements (Resumed) 826 sary, depending on how matters develop, to seek decline in salmon stocks...”. It all comes down to further reductions. ending drift netting. Of course, the fishermen However, I believe the Minister has been a must be compensated but there is no point pre- little isolated in this debate. It is easy for people tending there will be a fishing industry if the prac- living inland like me or in city constituencies to tice is not ended. I will quote from another scien- be on the side of the angels in this debate and tific paper: “The TAC [total allowable catch] simply write off places such as Donegal. In approach has, however, been serious compro- Donegal there is, perhaps, the highest unemploy- mised by two factors: the consistent failure of the ment rate in the country. In south-west Donegal, Minister of the day to follow scientific advice in fisheries are a natural resource and the area is the setting TACs....”. This is not against a particular capital of fishing. We do not have the right simply party or Minister but against all of them. They to make these people redundant. have all been afraid to grasp this nettle. There should be balance in the debate. We On a personal basis I have a great fondness for should acknowledge that there are many techni- the Minister and he is a decent man. However, cal factors involved and we should take the he more or less admitted that he was massaging trouble to try to understand them. The politically the situation a little. He told the House: “Sena- popular choice is simply to get on one’s soap box tors will be aware that I have already given a firm and pronounce a simplistic message but if we do commitment to aligning the exploitation of that, we will not do justice to the people who live salmon with scientific advice by 2007...”. One sees around our coasts and who depend on fisheries shades of St. Augustine, asking the Lord to make for a living. him chaste but not just yet because there is fun to be had in the meantime. The reference to 2007 Mr. Norris: A previous speaker from this side is a clear indication that the Minister is not taking of the House was chastised for being partisan and the scientific advice at present. He said as much political but I hope I will not. I hope what I have in his speech by saying we will adhere to the to say, which will be critical, will be seen to be scientific advice in 2007, two years hence. What founded on clear, scientific evidence and not as will the situation be then? That is the problem. politically partisan. I have no reason to be There is another matter. I base my contribution partisan. on facts and the Minister is welcome to challenge To give an example, I was extraordinarily them. According to the latest scientific advice the impressed by the contribution of Senator Dardis. returns of spawning salmon in 2004 were below He spoke from the Government benches with the levels required to meet their conservation clarity, the real passion of a committed fisherman limits in 14 of the 17 Irish fishery districts. Eight and with honesty. That was most important. He of the 14 districts were so far below their conser- made clear what he believed should be the sol- vation limits that the scientific advice was that ution. With regard to Senator Mansergh’s contri- there was no exploitable surplus of salmon. In bution, one listens to people of a party political other words, there should have been no fishing in persuasion, sometimes with a degree of amuse- those areas. The source of this information is a ment, when they talk about the easy political paper entitled “Provisional Catch Advice for choice and what is most popular with voters, as if 2005 from the Standing Scientific Committee of political parties on one side of the House were the National Salmon Commission to the Com- immune from this. Of course, they are not. There mission”, dated 30 November 2004. is a political element in this debate and I accept I appreciate, as a practical politician, that there that. is a large scale drift net industry, particularly in Senator Mansergh spoke about the rights of the the Donegal area. Let us be honest — that means fishermen but soon there will be no fish left any- there is political pressure. We should strengthen way. That is the situation we face. The Minister the Minister’s hand in dealing with this political said that the Government has accepted the scien- pressure by ensuring that all sides of the House tific advice. That is too little, too late. According recognise the crisis with fishing stocks. There is to Deputy Eamon Ryan, the Minister of State no question that there is a crisis. It is my under- ignored scientific advice and issued a quota for standing that most of the drift net fishermen 150,000 fish but only 100,000 were caught. There recognise they are at the end of the line and will were insufficient numbers of fish. Salmon stocks accept a compensation package. are obviously reduced. The Minister also said that he will not make any money available until and unless it is proved Mr. Gallagher: The Senator should get his to be in the common good. What planet are we facts right. on? It has been proved time and again that it is in the common good to give these people a digni- Mr. Norris: According to The Irish Times, fied exit from a situation where they are “Minister of State Pat the Cope Gallagher has destroying the industry for everybody, not just for ignored developmental and scientific advice and the commercial trawlers. It also affects angling, appears determined that nothing will halt the which is worth \55 million to this country and 827 Salmon Fisheries Report: 25 October 2005. Statements (Resumed) 828

[Mr. Norris.] Mr. Gallagher: The Senator does not know. has spin-off effects for hotels, cottage industries, ghillies, boatmen, the people who supply bait and Mr. Norris: I have a fairly good idea. Nothing so forth. There is a strong economic argument in justifies the slaughter of the seals, the way it was that regard but it is being killed. The Minister is done against the law in Kerry. It is easy for the well aware that the angling magazines are warn- Minister to blame the seals for his inadequacy ing people away from Ireland because of the dis- and finger a poor unfortunate dumb animal astrous situation. We must tackle this issue instead of doing what all the scientists state he directly and immediately; putting it off is useless. should do. Over the period from 1970 to 2003, for The Minister gave a party political speech in example, the salmon catch has dropped to less which he took on the spirit of the Taoiseach, than one quarter of its previous levels. That Deputy Bertie Ahern, by saying, in effect, lots should set alarm bells ringing in even the dullest done, more to do. He stated that throughout the of minds and I am not suggesting for one second last year the Government has done this, that and that the sharp person from Donegal has a dull the other, but that he fully accepts that there is mind. If there are some dull minds around, they more to be done. First, he has not done half need to be awoken. enough in the past and, second, he can start The clear scientific indications are that in 59% immediately in addressing the situation regarding of our rivers no salmon should be taken by any fish stocks. Those are comments on the Minister means whatever. That is what the scientists are of State’s speech. They are not made in a per- saying. A further 27% should have severe sonal or partisan sense, I would say so to any reductions applied. This is what we are being told Minister of any party in Government because we and this is where we need action. are facing a real crisis. One must look at the figures. Senator If one looks at the question of growing salmon, Mansergh stated that we do not really know and many of the rivers that have a potential to the scientific evidence is unclear. Not only is it produce juvenile salmon are on the south-east not unclear, it is unanimous and totally unam- and east coasts. Here is a situation where they biguous. If Senator Mansergh thinks it is the seals put drift nets right across the mouths of the rivers who are responsible for it, then I suggest he — it has been described to me as like having a should do another doctorate in marine biology drift net across the factory gates. The Minister and marine science because we know that at least of State is stopping production by allowing this 70% of the salmon catch throughout the entire method, which should be stopped. island comes from drift netting. That only leaves 30% to be distributed among everybody else, Mr. Gallagher: From where is the Senator get- including the unfortunate seals who have ting that information? been—— Mr. Kenneally: That is not true. Mr. Kenneally: That is not true. Mr. Norris: I ask the Senator to stop chirruping Mr. Norris: These are the facts and figures. away; he will get his opportunity in a couple of minutes. Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Norris, with- (Mr. Gallagher): This is not the Senator Norris I out interruption. know. That makes no sense whatsoever. I ask him to repeat his comments. Mr. Norris: I will give Senator Kenneally all the details and documents. I would have no difficulty Mr. Norris: Some 70% of the Irish salmon in doing so. They are facts in black and white. We taken by all methods of exploitation, including recreational angling, fall to the drift nets. I have know it. There is no point in denying it. Why is with me the catch returns in itemised form. On the Minister of State in denial? We know it per- top of that—— fectly well. We know that bass have been affected. One must look at the position in the Mr. Kenneally: What is the catch for seals? case of cod. Were we not all on the same side when the people in Newfoundland were fighting Mr. Gallagher: How many did the seals against the Spanish and Portuguese? Why is he consume? singing a different tune now? We should be trying to protect what is left of our stocks. We also know An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Norris with- that, for example, there should be proper open- out interruption. ness and transparency in the case of our own fish- ermen and in terms of resources. I am sure the Mr. Norris: This is the point. The Minister of Minister of State could confirm — or perhaps he State does not know, does he? will express disbelief as well — that at weekends, 829 Salmon Fisheries Report: 25 October 2005. Statements (Resumed) 830 and occasionally even in the evenings, there are gear, etc.; an end to the practices of marine no patrols. dumping and aggregate extraction; and, an end to nuclear waste dumping. There are other issues, Mr. Kenneally: There is no fishing either. including the zebra mussels. It really surprises me to hear the occasional Mr. Norris: We have no regulations. I am voice — it is not yet even the majority voice in delighted to hear that the salmon take the week- Fianna Fa´il — chirruping up to protect the Span- ends off. That is another scientific fact from ish trawlers from my attacks. This is a national Fianna Fa´il. That is great. Do they have bank resource which we sold out during our nego- holidays off as well? tiations with the European Union. At least let us protect that fragment which remains and nourish Mr. Kenneally: Does the Senator realise—— it back to some semblance of health. I acknowledge the difficult position of the Mr. Norris: I could not be bothered listening to Minister of State. I encourage him to take a cour- that kind of tripe. ageous stance. He should not keep postponing it. Otherwise he will be in an election in 2007. I ask An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator has one him to act immediately. Why create this miasma minute remaining. about whether it is in the national good? The Minister of State knows it is in the national good. We all know it is in the national good to provide Mr. Norris: That will be quite enough for me. for decent fishermen so that we can continue with There are other matters that should be addressed the salmon stocks. such as the lack of resources for monitoring this matter. I do not mean only monitoring our own Mr. Gallagher: How many did the Spanish people. If they are so innocent, why do they go catch? without navigation lights when they are about this filthy, wasteful and profligate trade of monofila- Mr. Norris: I will give the Minister the figures ment and drift netting? tomorrow. Let us look at the foreign fishermen. We all know what they do and I presume the Minister Mr. Gallagher: It will be man˜ ana. of State knows also, the way they leave their nets in the sea to save time when they are going back Mr. Norris: It is not just what they catch. It is with their catch. They catch every conceivable the amount of damage they do. kind of fish and then just dump them overboard. They then cut the nets while repairing them and Mr. Mooney: I am always entertained by my leave them at the bottom of the sea where they friend and colleague, Senator Norris. can entangle all kinds of different fish, and there is no regulation. I can read it here, that the prac- Mr. Norris: And I am always patronised by tice of repairing these nets at sea, cutting away the Senator. and dumping overboard the miles of non- bio-degradable netting retaining only the ropes, Mr. Mooney: There he goes. I was about to pay means many miles of netting ensnare fish use- him a more fulsome compliment in that there are lessly, fish that are then dumped. people who pay to hear him. It is wonderfully The Minister of State knows that my interest in refreshing that we do not have to pay to hear him this is not frivolous. I have been raising this in this House. matter over the past four or five years at least. No. 22, motion No. 13 on the Order Paper, in my Mr. Norris: The Senator pays taxes. name and supported by the other Independents, calls for what the Minister of State should address Mr. Mooney: Long may it continue because he as a programme — a total ban, starting now, on is theatre at its best and we really could learn a mono and multi-monofilament gill and drift nets; great deal from him in that regard. If I had my a ban on trawling within a six mile limit; no net- hat on, I would take it off to him. ting of any description within one mile of the low Answering his argument, which was eliciting water mark; the creation of and an increase in the the comments and reactions from this side of the protection for nursery and spawning areas; closed House, is like trying to separate the wheat from seasons to protect spawning fish; angling groups the chaff; I will leave that to the Minister of State like the IFSA to be involved in consultation pro- to do in his own forensic and efficient way, which cesses; a full survey of all recreational anglers to I hope the Senator will stay to hear. determine our economic input; an increase in I wish to repeat much of what has been stated minimum sizes and a reduction of quotas for com- already on salmon being a national asset. I mercially exploited species; increased fishery pro- approach this from a more rural perspective in tection resources; much tighter oversight of that I come from a part of Ireland in the north domestic and foreign vessels as regards landings, west where for decades there has been under- 831 Salmon Fisheries Report: 25 October 2005. Statements (Resumed) 832

[Mr. Mooney.] 191,579 spawners. Therefore, there is an abun- capitalisation and under-investment in adequate dance of salmon returning to Irish rivers. onshore facilities to encourage a greater number I agree with the point made with regard to the of anglers to come here. The Minister of State, dividing line between the importance of fishing coming from County Donegal, is aware of the for commercial purposes and the importance of importance of angling tourism. He made the angling tourism. I am prejudiced in this regard point repeatedly in his speech and he does not and come down in favour of angling tourism and need to be told by advisers, by a commission or those who participate in it, not only because of by anybody else of the importance of angling the value to the local economy but to the national tourism, particularly in my part of the country but economy also. The Minister is right when he says not exclusively so. I share his view on buyouts the trend across Europe is towards a reduction in and whether it makes economic sense to spend angling. I am not sure why this is so. In the past an estimated \25 million, which I understand decade people made repeated representations to from third parties would be the cost, or is more me about the pollution levels on the upper River effective to invest that money in angling tourism Shannon. Some photographs were sent to me across the country. In the Leitrim lakeland dis- showing the white foam appearing on the water trict we have an abundance of lakes and fish but in good traditional fishing areas around Rooskey have traditionally had a problem of access and and farther north. As a result of Government insufficient and inadequate onshore facilities for policy on this in recent years, the problem has our visiting and resident anglers. I am pleased dissipated. I pay tribute to the agricultural sector that in recent years, under the watch of the Mini- who have taken on their responsibility in this ster of State, Deputy Gallagher, there has been regard. However, the problem has not been an increase in funding in this regard, channelled totally eliminated and I suggest it is a contribu- through the various regional boards. tory factor to the reduction in fish stocks avail- Local angling interests have expressed concern able for angling tourism. to me at possible moves towards the abolition or There has certainly been a reduction in the centralisation of the fisheries boards. That would number of angling tourists to my part of the not be a positive step. It would be a world and the upper Shannon region. I am sure 4 o’clock disadvantage, particularly to those of the Minister of State is aware of the problems us living in Leitrim and those in the in the angling tourism sector. Not only does the peripheral regions, primarily the west of Ireland, problem affect the Exchequer, it also has an where there is a large lakeland environment. The adverse impact on the bed and breakfast places Shannon Regional Fisheries Board and the where anglers traditionally stayed. With the Northern Regional Fisheries Board which each increase in the number of hotels, as a result of tax look after one half of County Leitrim have been incentives introduced by the Government over doing a very good job. Will the Minister of State the past ten years, there is now a reduction in the inform us whether there are plans or suggestions number of visitors using bed and breakfast estab- in the pipeline for centralisation of these boards? lishments. I am convinced the regional boards are a good A couple from England recently stated in a let- idea. The Shannon Regional Fisheries Board has ter how much they enjoyed their time in Ireland been circulating correspondence to its constituent and criticised those who referred to it as a rip-off members asking them to fight against this country. The couple in question were pensioners proposal. and pointed out that in Ireland we do not pay I agree with much of what has been said, council tax, we have free travel for the elderly despite the points made by Senator Norris. We and have cheaper hotels than in the United accept this is a controversial issue. A group of Kingdom. The writer wanted to know why people parliamentarians from the Faroe Islands who here were whingeing and whining about the coun- made a submission to the Joint Committee on try. I found the letter refreshing coming from Foreign Affairs a few weeks ago said that their people who had travelled around Ireland on islands had never had a history of drift net fishing. holiday for the first time in approximately 15 They could not quite understand how we still had years. The writer was not, therefore comparing it here. Unlike many other Ministers who must with recent years. acquaint themselves with the nuances and detail The abolition of salmon drift net fishing is not of their brief, the Minister of State comes from a the sole question. There are wider issues at both fishing background and environment. He has a macro and micro economic level. Real hardship made it clear, and I share his view, that any align- is being experienced by people in the tourism sec- ment of salmon stocks should be done on scien- tor. I hope the Minister of State will be guided by tific advice. I am pleased he has requested the the scientific advice, but also by the needs of the National Salmon Commission to examine the people in his part of the country. I appreciate that scientific dimension to this controversy and to he must look after the national interest, but as a report back to him by 2007. Some 359,002 wild Minister of State, a Deputy and a former MEP salmon returned to our waters in 2004, including he has first-hand knowledge of the needs of the 833 Salmon Fisheries Report: 25 October 2005. Statements (Resumed) 834 tourism and fishery sectors in the north west and Previous speakers have alluded to the coverage the west. I wish him well in his deliberations. I of angling in Ireland in international magazines, applaud him for consulting with those in the about which I am concerned. Trout and Salmon, scientific community and on the setting up of the a UK angling magazine, called us international National Salmon Commission. He has also taken outlaws because of our attitude to salmon. note of many of the recommendations in the Articles like these, which tell people there is no Oireachtas report. These actions will hopefully point in visiting Ireland because there are no fish, feed into this debate and resolve the problem will not encourage people to visit this country. once and for all. Some visitors from Germany told me recently they were here despite reading in magazines that Mr. Cummins: I welcome the report of the joint there were no fish left in Ireland. They enjoyed committee and the submissions made to it. I have their visit but caught very few fish. Anglers read listened with interest to the major part of this these magazines and this type of negative infor- debate and the wide divergence of opinions mation about Ireland will have a devastating expressed as to how we can tackle the problem. effect on the number of anglers visiting the A number of weeks ago a deputation came to country. my clinic in Lismore representing angling, hotel The Minister should immediately opt for a vol- and tourism interests in the area. The group made untary buyout. Most people regard waiting until a professional presentation and outlined the 2007 to introduce a buyout as kicking to touch. decrease in salmon stocks, in particular in the What is the Government waiting for? We have Blackwater River, over the past number of years. had numerous reports on this issue and all it The same is happening in most parts of the coun- requires is a decision. The Government should try. This affects businesses such as services to not use science as a refuge in order to prevent the anglers, bed and breakfast establishments, and introduction of necessary measures. The sooner hotels. Businesses have had to let people go. the Minister opts for the voluntary buyout and set-aside, the better it is for conservation, anglers This is a major problem. Like the Minister of and fishermen throughout the country. State, I believe our salmon stocks are a national asset that must be conserved and protected. No Mr. Daly: I extend my deepest sympathy to matter the side of the fence one is on in this Mrs. Hazel Lawlor and her family on the tragic debate, we all believe there must be more conser- death of Liam Lawlor at the weekend. I also vation and protection of salmon stocks. extend my sympathies to his brother, Noel Pollution is a major problem in some rivers. Lawlor, with whom I canvassed in a by-election Poaching, seals and cormorants have also been in Dundalk many years ago. mentioned as causing a problem. There is no I welcome the opportunity to speak on this doubt, however, that drift netting is probably the issue and thank the committee for bringing the greatest problem where salmon stocks are con- report before the House. I also thank Senator cerned. As previous speakers noted, my party Dardis for preparing a very detailed and compre- favours a voluntary buyout or set-aside, which the hensive report and compliment him on his speech Minister of State should consider at an early here today. There have been so many reports on stage. As Senator Kenneally outlined, the vast the salmon industry that it is almost impossible to majority of people in many areas, particularly in keep track of them all. I recall receiving the the south east, would avail of a voluntary cess- report of the salmon review body when I was a ation and buyout. This must be part of any sol- Minister of State in 1987. This report set out what ution to the problem. needed to be done in the area of conservation in \ It is estimated that salmon fishing is worth 55 a very comprehensive fashion. The report million to the economy. The decline in anglers included a very detailed assessment of the visiting Ireland from 54,000 in 1999 to 27,000 in measures taken in various countries, including the 2004 must cause concern. It must pose a major Faroe Islands and Canada, to deal with declining problem for tourism interests in areas connected salmon stocks and I would recommend it to those with angling around the country. The Minister of interested in how these two countries dealt with State mentioned that it is far more beneficial and the problem. economical to have fish caught by the rod rather Declining stocks of Atlantic salmon are a prob- than through drift netting. The livelihoods of lem for many countries, not just Ireland. It is sig- people around the coast must be considered in nificant that there were very clear indications that any buyout, which is why Fine Gael believes any netting in general and drift netting, in particular, buyout should be voluntary. Telling people to did their fair share of damage to salmon stocks in stop all drift netting immediately would not be a all the countries with which discussions were held sensible policy. We would make great strides in in the late 1980s. I agree with Senator O’Toole’s conservation with the reduction we would remark at the outset of the debate that anyone achieve if a voluntary buyout or set-aside were here or abroad who feels that the complete abol- introduced. ition of salmon drift net fishing will save salmon 835 Salmon Fisheries Report: 25 October 2005. Statements (Resumed) 836

[Mr. Daly.] 30 or 40 years, including this year. The nets are stocks is mistaken. There are other issues that are not drift nets of the strict sense which are equally, if not more, relevant. allowed, but fixed engines which are fixed by fish- The Annageeragh River in west Clare, which ermen to take as much salmon as they possibly flows from Doolough Lake and into the sea near can. I appreciate that it is their business, but if Quilty, is a very important salmon and brown and they want to criticise our approach to the matter white trout fishing river. The river was not we are entitled to ask them where their responsi- affected by the decline in white trout stocks over bility lies. Given that they are operating what are the last number of years and has attracted many described in the Fisheries Acts as “illegal fixed anglers in the summer. However, it is being engines”, rather than “drift nets”, in the lower almost totally annihilated by a water treatment Shannon, from the mouth of the Shannon to plant at Doolough Lake and the fact that the Coonagh, it is no wonder that salmon stocks are model of the culvert which allows the fish to in their current state. escape into the catchment has been broken down I am conscious of the damage being done to for approximately one year. A fault at the water salmon stocks by wildlife. It was proposed at the treatment plant led to thousands of salmon and 1919 fisheries board meeting to which I referred white and brown trout being wiped out in the to arm the approximately 1,000 people who were Annageeragh River. Nobody wishes to accept any operating stake weirs on the River Shannon at responsibility for the broken culvert. The that time, before the construction of Ardnacru- Shannon Regional Fisheries Board does not have sha, with guns so that they could control the riv- the money or legal power to deal with the prob- er’s seal population. At that time, the Shannon lem, the Office of Public Works does have the Fishery Board was also paying a bounty on otters, statutory authority to deal with it but claims it which can do irreparable and immeasurable cannot do so because it is not on the list of damage to spawning beds in October and Nov- arterial drainage rivers and the county council ember. I have some sympathy for seals, which can does not have the money to deal with it. Drift damage catches when they get into nets, but I am netting is not a factor in this affair but due to the not so sure about otters, which can annihilate neglect of the outlets and model of the intake to spawning salmon when they get into spawning allow the escape of salmon into the catchment, beds. I consider the activities of otters to be far the river is being systematically wiped out and more serious than the activities of seals. will be gone in approximately three to four It was also proposed at the important 1919 years time. meeting of the Limerick Fishery Board to My father, John Daly, was the chief clerk and increase the bounty on mergansers to one shilling secretary to the Limerick Fishery Board, which is and 6 p and on cormorants to half a crown. The now the Shannon Regional Fisheries Board, from fishing industry on the River Shannon was around 1929 to 1965. I worked with the Shannon thriving in 1919, when all our rivers had good Regional Fisheries Board and was brought up in salmon stocks. At the 1919 meeting, concerns a fisheries office. I was also a member of the were expressed about netting in the north west Shannon Board of Conservators for a consider- and the illegal activities of poachers, who are still able number of years and examined some of its rampant today. Those at the meeting spoke about records over the weekend. I learned of a major the illegal activities of the operators of drift net debate on the abolition of drift netting and the fishermen who were fixing their nets to fixed fact that there were approximately 300 boats fish- engines, thereby doing immeasurable damage to ing for salmon off the north west from the stocks. Concerns were expressed about the effect minutes of a meeting of the Shannon Fishery on salmon stocks of the activities of otters, seals, Board in 1919. Those who attended the 1919 mergansers, cormorants and other predators. meeting were exercised by the upcoming motoris- I am worried about the damage being done by ation of the fishing boats. In other words, the the forestry sector to spawning areas in the upper boats were about to be fitted with engines. When tributaries of our smaller rivers. I understand that I had ministerial responsibility for fisheries in Coillte has taken steps to deal with such prob- 1982 and 1987-88, I endeavoured to talk to the lems, for example by prohibiting the planting of drift net fishermen. I regret to say that the fisher- trees within a certain distance of spawning stre- men in question showed no interest in any form ams. I believe that the most significant damage is of buyout or sell-out at that time. being done to salmon stocks in areas where I have heard a representative of the Shannon spawning is carried out. Salmon can encounter netsmen on national and local radio in recent difficulties when they try to escape into catch- weeks, criticising the Minister and the Minister of ments and to overcome various obstacles. The State for their neglect of the salmon industry. He most important aspect of the salmon fishing sec- failed to tell the listeners that the 70 drift nets tor that needs to be safeguarded is the spawning which have been on the River Shannon since the area. We need to deal with that aspect effectively 1930s, when the Ardnacrusha project was com- by ensuring that salmon can escape into catch- pleted, have been operating illegally for the last ments and that they receive protection when they 837 Salmon Fisheries Report: 25 October 2005. Statements (Resumed) 838 are spawning in catchments. In that way, we can our angling industry is maintained. Like the Mini- reverse to a large extent the significant decline in ster of State, all Senators need to reflect on salmon stocks over recent years. whether angling tourism is compatible with the I disagree with the comments of Senator Cum- drift net fishing sector. The report under dis- mins about the proposal to initiate a voluntary cussion attempts to resolve this difficult matter. buyout scheme in respect of drift nets and draft Senator Cummins and I are familiar with the nets. If such a voluntary scheme is introduced, important angling tradition on the River Black- some fishermen will leave the sector but the water. We have read many reports over the years remaining fishermen will fish the additional about the decline in salmon stocks on the river, stocks which will come into the catchment area. which is having a negative impact on tourism in If one removes 50 drift nets from the River the Blackwater Valley. As I am not an expert in Shannon, the remaining 25 drift nets will reap the this field, I cannot claim to know all the reasons benefit of that. If there is to be a buyout, I for the pressure on salmon stocks. However, we strongly suggest to the Minister of State that it cannot ignore the fact that drift netting is playing should be compulsory, so that all the drift nets a major role in reducing salmon stocks on our and draft nets will be removed from our water- rivers. Action must be taken. We must also recog- ways. I would be prepared to allow the compul- nise that many people are employed in the drift sory process to continue for a certain length of net industry. We cannot expect them to simply go time. I do not think three years would be long away without an adequate level of compensation. enough. One would have to allow the scheme to I hope the Minister of State will give serious con- continue for a longer period of time so that one sideration to the recommendations in the report. could examine whether it is working. I agree with Senator Daly’s point in regard to The drift net issue has to be dealt with. It would a buyout, be it long-term, temporary or with a be unwise to think that salmon stocks can be mir- set-aside option. A voluntary buyout or set-aside aculously saved by removing drift nets from the scheme may not work satisfactorily because it will salmon fishing sector. A combination of issues be taken up by those who are least successful in needs to be dealt with. I am glad the Minister of the industry. This happened when the possibility State, Deputy Gallagher, has such great know- existed for farmers to sell their milk quotas in ledge and experience of the fisheries sector. I that it was not the large farmers who sold their gave him some training for a few years. I am con- quotas but the less economically developed ones. fident that he will make the right decision when A voluntary scheme would be costly for the considering whether schemes should be put in Department and the State to operate but would place to remove drift and draft nets from the not produce results because the larger drift net mouths of catchments. I suggest that all such nets fishermen would stay in business. should be removed, or none should be removed. If we see a buyout as a way out, it will have to be undertaken on a basis other than a voluntary Mr. Bradford: I would like to say a few words one. We must bring all involved within the net, if as part of this important debate. I welcome the Members will excuse the pun, but this will be Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, to the costly. We cannot expect drift net fishermen to House. I recognise that he will have a difficult simply wind down operations. We must be pre- job in trying to resolve this issue. Ireland spends pared to invest funding in a proper, attractive billions of euro each year, in the form of direct scheme with a good financial package because, if grant aid or tax incentives, for example, on trying it works and we help the conservation and further to attract enterprise and industry. We need to development of salmon stocks, it will produce sig- ensure we protect our natural assets and nificant benefits from a tourism and angling per- resources, such as our salmon stocks, which help spective. to create jobs and wealth. In my former constituency, I know people from The Irish salmon, which is as old as the nation, the drift net community and those involved in is synonymous with this country. It continues to angling. I appreciate that the issues involved are be one of our greatest resources, despite the not simple ones. It is not easy to square a circle pressure on it. Our tourism industry, which and, in this case, it cannot be done. However, employs tens of thousands of people, is another while a difficult choice faces the Minister, we of our great natural resources. Earlier this after- must put at the top of the policy agenda the need noon, I attended a meeting of the Joint Commit- to conserve salmon stocks and allow them to tee on Foreign Affairs, which featured a presen- flourish, and to ensure that the tens of thousands tation by our counterparts from Australia, who of domestic anglers and tourists who come to fish mentioned that some 125,000 Australian people our waters continue to do so. The statistics high- visit Ireland every year. The Irish salmon is a light the large variation in value to the economy magnetic attraction to the many tourists from between a salmon caught by an angler and a Australia and other countries who come to this salmon caught in nets. Given those figures alone, country to do some fishing on Irish rivers. We we know what we must do. It is a question of have an absolute economic duty to ensure that putting in place a fair system. The idea of the 839 Salmon Fisheries Report: 25 October 2005. Statements (Resumed) 840

[Mr. Bradford.] this issue. We need increased enforcement. Given system being introduced on a three or four-year proper enforcement, it might be possible for res- trial basis should be considered. taurants to buy fish from anglers who have caught I concur with Senator Daly’s point with regard salmon on a rod. Otherwise, we will never again to a voluntary versus a compulsory scheme. While have wild salmon on menus. we in this country do not like the word “compul- The issue of access to lakes is important. In my sory”, a voluntary system will cost money but will county, access is very poor and it is hard to under- not produce results. If we are in the business of stand how boats get onto rivers or lakes — Lough spending money, we must implement a proper Conn and Lough Cullin in particular. Grants scheme and move towards a system which will should be made available through local auth- remove the nets and allow salmon to be re- orities, the fisheries boards or the board of works. stocked in rivers, allow the angling industry to So many agencies and vested interests are thrive and the tourism industry to recover and involved, it is hard to know who is responsible for grow. That would be a big reward at the end of access to rivers and lakes, a matter which must the line. However, there will be a significant cost be examined. element to compensation and the Minister of There is also the issue of keeping lake levels at State, Deputy Gallagher, and the Minister for a certain point during the summer by temporarily Finance will need to be willing to come up with removing weirs. I live close to the Castlebar lake the necessary funding. We cannot expect those in and every year there is a constant hassle about the drift net industry, who have been in the busi- putting the weir in place and taking it out even ness for generations, to disappear without fair though it is not a large job for the local authority and equitable compensation. I hope the Minister or fisheries board responsible. All Members will try to put a fair package in place. agree action must be taken on salmon drift net- No matter how long this debate continues, ting. The Fine Gael Party has argued for a volun- there is only one question, namely, whether we tary buyout and set-aside scheme. will take tough measures to conserve salmon stocks. We must be willing to do so. It is one of Mr. Gallagher: I pay tribute to the sub-commit- our oldest and greatest natural resources and we tee on salmon drift netting, draft netting and must ensure it is available for coming generations, angling, under the chairmanship of Deputy as it has been for all generations past. O’Flynn and represented by Senator Kenneally and others, for its report on salmon drift netting. Mr. P. Burke: I welcome the Minister of State I only wish it were a matter of simply finding the to the House for this important debate. As funding for compensatory measures to resolve Senator Bradford stated, action needs to be taken this problem. If it was as simple as that, we would with regard to salmon stocks. I listened to most be living in utopia. of this debate. I was interested in the contribution However, as many Members pointed out, it is of most speakers, particularly that of Senator not as simple as that. One can get the impression Dardis, who made an impressive contribution. little has been done when in fact much has been Senator Daly is correct to state that the removal done over the last several years. Earlier this year of nets from river catchment areas is important at the end of a three year process, the scientists and should be done immediately. involved changed their methodology from a 50% I support our party position in regard to the risk assessment to 75% risk assessment, which voluntary buyout and set-aside option. Coming resulted in these changes. Socio-economic factors from a county which offers sea angling, drift net- were also taken into account. Leaving these aside, ting and has some of the greatest fishing rivers funding of X million euro, when it is decided, and lakes in Europe, I have seen at first hand the must be distributed in an equitable manner to all damage to which Senator Dardis, who is a keen those involved by the National Salmon Com- angler, referred. mission, the Department of Communications, It is undoubtedly the case that anglers are no Marine and Natural Resources, BIM or the fish- longer coming to Ireland. In some cases, Irish eries boards. Some claim I favour the drift netters anglers are travelling to other countries in as there are so many of them in County Donegal. Europe and elsewhere to have the great pleasure There are only 140 out of 800 as no one in of catching a salmon on a rod. This is disgraceful Donegal, like the rest of the country, can survive when one considers the river, lake and sea fishing solely on the income earned from drift netting. available here. The activity is supplementing other income. Having spoken to hoteliers and restauranteurs Senator Norris suggested that Senator recently, it is clear wild salmon is almost a thing Mansergh, after he left the Chamber, should do of the past. Restaurants can now only buy wild another doctorate, this time in microbiology. All salmon from drift net fishermen. If drift net fish- other Members made genuine contributions. As ing finishes, no wild salmon will be available for Senator Norris, it would be hilarious if it was because the purchase of rod-caught salmon is not not so serious. He does not need to get a PhD allowed. The Minister of State should examine himself on this matter but at least he should get 841 Adoptive Leave Bill 2004 [Seanad Bill 25 October 2005. Amended by Da´il]: Report and Final Stages 842 his facts right. To show how ludicrous his contri- God, I will carry that until the day they put me bution was, he will tell me tomorrow how much into wherever I am going to be. I want to be fair salmon seals consume each year. It makes me and all sides to be treated equitably. Compensa- remember on an occasion when salmon had tory measures must be financed by those who will escaped from a fish farm cage, an individual benefit from a ban. I am not sure what percentage declared that we would not stop until every was stated would be paid by other interests. salmon was retrieved. This is going from the sub- However, we must first establish what it will cost. lime to the ridiculous. Senator Norris’s contri- As the custodians of the fisheries, we must ensure bution was funny but this is a serious matter. they are there for future generations. It is said that I should take a courageous One Member suggested we may never have decision and ban salmon drift netting now. When wild salmon on restaurant menus again. Many in the history of this matter is written, it will show the industry have produced farmed salmon that that such a decision would be wrong. The compares favourably with wild salmon. However, National Salmon Commission is representative of one should not replace the other. If we can work all stakeholders. Last Saturday in Killarney, I met with scientists, we can have a sustainable fishery. those representing the commercial sector. I dis- Senator Daly pointed out that we are not con- cussed with them the necessity for balance and to centrating much on the spawning grounds. We recognise the important role played by the must also concentrate on poaching, pollution and angling tourism sector. I, along with the Minister seals. It has been intimated that I condoned what for Arts, Sports and Tourism, Deputy happened to seals in County Kerry last year when O’Donoghue, received a letter from the Stop I actually condemned it. Salmon Drift Nets Now campaigners. When I This is not the end of the issue of drift netting. explained the National Salmon Commission We are coming towards a decision. I will not be would examine it, I was told the commission was the one standing in the way of expediting what is too balanced. We cannot discriminate positively in the best interest of all involved. or negatively. The commission must examine this matter. If I was to take the decision on a ban now, Adoptive Leave Bill 2004 [Seanad Bill Amended the criticism would be all the greater. by Da´il]: Report and Final Stages. In Galway next week, the chairman of the Acting Chairman (Mr. Dardis): This is a National Salmon Commission will meet represen- Seanad Bill which has been amended by the Da´il. tatives of the Stop Salmon Drift Nets Now group In accordance with Standing Order 103, it is and the drift net association. This is the right deemed to have passed its First, Second and approach to the issue. All representatives on the Third Stages in the Seanad and is placed on the commission are serious about this and are Order Paper for Report Stage. On the question anxious to examine all reports, including the one “That the Bill be received for final consider- prepared by Senator Dardis. Some bodies claim ation”, the Minister may explain the purpose of they are not represented on the commission. the amendments made by the Da´il. This is looked Unfortunately there was not enough space for all. upon as the report of the Da´il amendments to the One cannot put the pint into the half pint bottle. Seanad. The only matters, therefore, which may However, those groups will have an opportunity be discussed are the amendments made by the to make their views known to the commission, Da´il. For Senators’ convenience, I have arranged either orally or in written submission. for the printing and circulation of the amend- There is much talk about compensatory ments. Senators may speak only once on Report measures. However, this is not the responsibility Stage. of the State alone. Many of those who will benefit from a ban, such as those in private fisheries, Question proposed: “That the Bill be received have said they will make a contribution to the for final consideration.” measures. It would be wrong of the Government alone to provide this funding. I have no hang-up Acting Chairman: Group one is the subject on this issue. There are many in County Donegal matter of amendments Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 12. who are anxious for the introduction of a buyout or set-aside scheme. Legally, it is not compulsory Minister of State at the Department of Justice, for the Government to provide one cent for a Equality and Law Reform (Mr. Fahey): The buyout. If a Minister believes such a measure Adoptive Leave Bill 2004 was introduced in the must be introduced in the interests of conser- Seanad over 12 months ago. A number of amend- vation, he is entitled to do so. However, there are ments were made during its passage through this moral considerations in this. Whether one is an House and I welcome the opportunity to return angler or a commercial fisherman, this is part of to the House to report on further amendments our heritage. made to the Bill in Da´il E´ ireann. A total of 11 I am not carrying any baggage on this issue. As Government amendments and one Opposition I said at my party’s the Ard-Fheis, the only bag- amendment were accepted on Committee Stage gage I have is that I am a Donegal man. Please in the Da´il. 843 Adoptive Leave Bill 2004 [Seanad Bill 25 October 2005. Amended by Da´il]: Report and Final Stages 844

[Mr. Fahey.] became apparent that subsection 11A(3)(a) could Amendments Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 12 were required be open to an interpretation contradictory to sub- to update the text of the Bill to take account of section 11A (1) to the effect of giving the Mini- the Adoptive Leave Act 1995 (Extension of ster the power in regulations to reduce the Periods of Leave) Order 2004 (SI 667/2004) made entitlement by limiting the number of classes or on 22 October 2004. This order implemented the meetings which the employee can attend. Conse- two week increase in adoptive leave to 16 weeks quently, amendment No. 5 removes subsection as provided for in section 3 of the Bill. Effectively 11A(3)(a) for the avoidance of any doubt on the it implemented the increase almost 12 months matter so that the Minister no longer has the earlier than would have been the case had we power to limit this entitlement by regulation. awaited enactment of the Bill. The increase in Amendment No. 6 also amends 11A(3) so that adoptive leave was consequent on the reduction matters intended to be dealt with under regu- in the compulsory period of pre-confinement lations are brought into the Bill. This simplifies maternity leave introduced by section 3 of the the legislation and has the further advantage of Maternity Protection (Amendment) Act 2004 and avoiding a delay of a number of months which maintains consistency between the leave pro- would be required to draft and make separate visions for natural and adopting mothers from the regulations under section 7. time the child is born or placed in their care. The Amendment No. 4 is a technical amendment increase in adoptive leave and the reduction of introduced as a consequence of amendments Nos. the compulsory pre-confinement period of 5 and 6. maternity leave mean that both natural and adopting mothers can now avail of up to 16 weeks Acting Chairman: Group three covers post- leave with payment of a social welfare benefit ponement of leave, the subject matter of amend- from the time the child is born or placed in their ment No. 7. care. Amendment No. 12 revokes the 2001 and 2004 Mr. Fahey: Amendment No. 7 amends subsec- orders as the provision of both orders is incorpor- tion 9(2)(d) of the Bill on the date of commence- ated into the Bill, making the legislation more ment of proposed leave. This amendment was transparent. initially proposed by Senator Tuffy but was not accepted. However, an identical amendment was Ms Terry: I welcome the Bill and the changes proposed by Deputy Moynihan-Cronin and, on that are afforded to adoptive parents. There does reflection, I was happy to accept it at that point. not appear to be an option for a father to avail The Bill as passed by the Seanad provides that of this leave rather than a mother. Not to allow postponed leave must be taken as one continuous this option is a shortcoming and an opportunity period beginning not later than seven days after missed by the Government. In the case of a the child is discharged from hospital. The amend- natural birth it is right for a mother, having been ment allows the employee and employer the through the pregnancy and given birth, to take scope to agree on another date for the com- the maternity leave. In the case of adoptive mencement of the postponed leave if they wish. parents there is no reason a father, where there The amended provision produces a greater is one, should not be equally placed to avail of degree of flexibility for the employee while this leave. If a mother was self employed or was allowing the employer some discretion in the in receipt of a larger wage than the father it may matter. be more convenient or suitable that the father avail of it. Has the Minister had time to reflect Ms Tuffy: I welcome this change. I remember on the discussion in the Da´il on this issue and will the discussion we had in the Seanad and although he address it now? the Minister did not accept the amendment then I am obliged that it was accepted in the Da´il. It Mr. Fahey: The point is not relevant to the would have been better to accept it in this House. amendments in group one so is not up for dis- The fact that we had such a long discussion about cussion at this stage. it probably influenced the Minister in his final decision. I welcome the amendment. Acting Chairman: Group two relates to attend- ance at pre-adoption classes and meetings and are Acting Chairman: Group four relates to the the subject of amendments Nos. 4, 5 and 6. simplification of section 11, the subject matter of amendment No. 8. Mr. Fahey: Section 7, subsection 11A(1) of the Bill as passed by the Seanad entitles employees Mr. Fahey: Amendment No. 8 simplifies the time off to attend obligatory pre-adoption classes text of section 11 of the Bill. The wording of the and meetings in accordance with regulations Bill which was passed by the Seanad, which was made by the Minister under subsection 11A (3). modelled on the 2001 order, could have given rise During the Bill’s passage through the Da´il it to confusion about employees’ entitlements in the 845 Adoptive Leave Bill 2004 [Seanad Bill 25 October 2005. Amended by Da´il]: Report and Final Stages 846 exceptional circumstance where the placement of We know of many families who have had their a child terminates earlier than 16 weeks. This own children and adopted children also. The amendment replaces the text with a more simple trend is now to go abroad, and many children and straightforward construction without altering have come to this country and are in warm and in any way the purpose of the section. loving family homes as a consequence. My own brother adopted two children and I had the Acting Chairman: Group five is a group of pleasure a month ago of watching one of them technical amendments, the subject matter of walk down the aisle in Galway to get married. amendments Nos. 9, 10 and 11. I reflected on how she had turned out and the wonderful life she has. Families involved in the Mr. Fahey: Amendments Nos. 9, 10 and 11 are adoption process from now on will have an easier technical amendments required to correct a cross- passage in many ways. referencing error in the text of section 12 of the We are also fulfilling promises in the Sustaining Bill. Progress programme, which is one of many prom- ises that we have brought to fruition. We are also Question put and agreed to. demonstrating that the Government is serious about the equality agenda. Question proposed: “That the Bill do now pass.” Ms Tuffy: I welcome this Bill and support the comments made by the other Senators, as well as Ms Terry: I made points earlier on making the the aims of the legislation. The Minister of State, leave which is the subject matter of the Bill in accepting one of the amendments, moved in optional, although I understand that they will not the direction of flexibility. There must be more be accepted at this stage. Nevertheless, I welcome options for parents, be they adoptive parents or the Bill as it will bring some equality to parents otherwise. This would be good for both family life adopting a child. The legislation probably should and employers, as employees with flexibility in have been enacted long ago. To repeat my pre- their work would be happier in their family life vious statement, it is a missed opportunity in that and job. this leave is not optional for either the mother or I support Senator Terry’s view that the legis- father to avail of. This is taking into account that lation could go further. I hope it will go in such a adoptive parents are in different circumstances direction at a future stage. This Bill is just a step, than natural parents, particularly the natural and much more must be done in order to improve mother, in terms of having to take maternity working life for people with children and families leave for health reasons. This is not the case with in general. adoptive parents, and amending the legislation to allow a father to take the leave if necessary could Minister of State at the Department of Justice, be a matter for future consideration. Equality and Law Reform (Mr. Fahey): I thank I am disappointed that the legislation does not the Senators for the contributions they have allow adoptive parents time off prior to the place- made to the Bill and the constructive approach ment of a child, to enable them to travel overseas, that was taken. It was not possible to accept a for instance, as we know many chil- number of amendments that were proposed. 5 o’clock dren come from foreign countries to With regard to Senator Terry’s proposal today, Irish adoptive parents. This time that the Bill does not allow for paid time off for over- must be spent abroad should be recognised. seas meetings in the case of foreign adoptions. Although the amendment was not accepted, I This was strongly rejected by employers because welcome the legislation and thank the officials of cost, and it should be remembered that there who put much time and effort into it. I thank the are costs to employers already contained in the Minister of State for bringing it forward and hope Bill. These allow parents paid time off for meet- that it will be signed into law as quickly as ings in Ireland with social workers and to attend possible. preparation classes, etc. It was therefore not pos- sible to allow those amendments based on Mr. Kett: I thank the Minister of State for his today’s contribution. contribution today in finalising the legislation. It The Adoptive Leave Bill 2004 is the second of is indicative of the caring nature of all strands of three key pieces of legislation in the area of bal- Government, in which I include the Opposition, ancing life and work. The Government commit- in seeking to provide everybody with an equal ted to these under the Sustaining Progress part- playing field on the issue of adoption. Adoptive nership agreement. Significant improvements parents can now achieve the same entitlements as have come about in maternity leave provisions, parents of naturally born children. This reflects which have already been implemented by the the caring nature of Irish society, and Irish people Maternity Protection (Amendment) Act 2004. have been very Christian through the years in Work is well advanced on the Government com- adopting children. mitment to implement a number of improve- 847 Hospital 25 October 2005. Services 848

[Mr. Fahey.] report. The department is inadequate for the ments to the parental leave scheme. The Parental number of patients it deals with, as the hospital Leave (Amendment) Bill 2004, published last covers Carlow and Kilkenny, along with some December, has been passed in the Seanad and is surrounding areas. A promise was made by the currently on Second Stage in the Da´il. Ta´naiste in July that the hospital would also Senators may be interested to know that the receive a stroke unit. majority of the Bill’s provisions will commence Other side issues include the minor injuries within weeks of enactment. Section 9, providing unit. The doctors and nurses in St. Luke’s have for the postponement of adoptive leave in the an excellent record of working with the local GPs event of the hospitalisation of the child, and to ensure that patients only present at the acci- associated sections, will commence at a later date dent and emergency unit when necessary, unlike as amendments to social welfare legislation are in Dublin where unfortunately, perhaps through required to permit splitting of the payment of a lack of GPs, people present themselves to acci- adoptive leave benefit. dent and emergency units and consequently cause I thank the Members of the House, the staff a major backlog. It is regrettable that St. Luke’s, of the House, the Cathaoirleach and the Leas- which was hailed as a showcase hospital, was in Chathaoirleach. I thank the staff in my own effect punished for its excellence. Thankfully, Department for their supportive role in the that has been corrected and I look forward to amendments and improvements to the Bill. hearing the Minister of State’s reply on progress and the commitment made by the Ta´naiste at the Question put and agreed to. time. I look forward to hearing good news from the Minister of State in terms of future funding. Acting Chairman: When is it proposed to sit again? Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Mr. S. Power): I thank Senator Mr. Kett: At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow. Browne for raising this matter on the Adjourn- ment. I have the pleasure of taking the Adjourn- ment on behalf of my colleague, the Ta´naiste and Adjournment Matters. Minister for Health and Children, Deputy ———— Harney. As the Senator has remarked, the manner in which St. Luke’s Hospital, Kilkenny is run has Hospital Services. been put forward as a showcase for accident and Mr. Browne: I welcome the Minister of State emergency treatment. I had the pleasure of visit- to the House. Last July, after many months of ing the hospital in December 2004 and was struck waiting, the capital programme for major by the excellent atmosphere and environment in hospitals in the country was announced. For some which everyone worked, despite the pressures unknown reason, St. Luke’s hospital in Kilkenny involved in trying to run a hospital of its size. The received no funding, despite other hospitals get- staff showed great respect for one another and ting two, three or four sets of different funding their different roles. A number of other hospitals from the programme. By coincidence, the have examined its successful operation and are Ta´naiste and Minister for Health and Children, trying to learn from the experience. Deputy Harney, was due to visit the hospital the As Senator Browne noted, the Ta´naiste paid a next day, as Deputy McGuinness had organised visit to the hospital in July 2005 and she agreed the trip earlier. It was embarrassing for the with the Health Service Executive’s proposal to Ta´naiste to visit the only hospital in the whole provide funding of \450,000 for St. Luke’s country which had received no funding. hospital to further the following capital initiat- The hospital had been used as a showcase ives: the appointment of a design team to further because of the manner in which it managed its a development control plan for the site; the com- accident and emergency department and the out- pletion of contract drawings for an out-patient patient department etc. It had been quoted at facility; and the development of services for the Cabinet level. On the day, the Ta´naiste gave stroke unit. reassurances that the issue would be rectified The Health Service Executive has informed the immediately, and some funding was allocated in Department of Health and Children that progress order to begin work. Further funding was to be on the development of an interim out-patient allocated in the future. I promised at the time that facility and an expanded accident and emergency I would raise an issue on the Adjournment in the unit continue to be the top priority for St Luke’s autumn to monitor the progress on the case. hospital. The technical issues involved are being The current accident and emergency depart- dealt with by the acting director of capital pro- ment in St. Luke’s hospital in Kilkenny was for- jects and his staff in Kilkenny. Planning per- merly a laundry room. The fire exit is blocked, a mission has been sought and the HSE south- situation condemned in a recent health and safety eastern area is satisfied there are no significant 849 Health Service 25 October 2005. Reform 850 obstacles that would hold up the planning per- and to improve the flow of information reaching mission. A design team has been appointed and public representatives from the HSE. As the is preparing the necessary tender documentation. Minister of State is aware, this demand has been It is now a matter for the Health Service Execu- made by all the local authority representative tive to continue to further these developments associations over the summer months. They are within the overall funding resources available. disappointed that although the harvest has come and this House is on the eve of its mid-term break, nothing has happened to date. Perhaps the Health Service Reform. Minister of State will throw some positive light Mr. Bannon: I welcome the Minister of State on the question as to when the forums for local to the House for this Adjournment matter. As he elected representatives will be introduced. is aware, there is a major democratic deficit in the delivery of health services in local areas since the Mr. S. Power: I will take this Adjournment abolition of the health boards. The provision of matter on behalf of my colleague, the Ta´naiste carers, home help, child care, etc., and the estab- and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy lishment of clinic appointments are being unduly Harney. I thank Senator Bannon for raising the delayed in a large number of areas. While hereto- matter as it provides me with an opportunity to fore, representations could be made to relevant update this House on the proposals to establish members within a health board, this is no longer the regional health forums. the case and one has great difficulty in gaining As Members and councillors will be aware, the access to people. need for the involvement of public representa- Section 42 of the Health Act 2004 provides for tives and the users of health services was raised the establishment of regional health forums on a number of occasions during the debates on engaging local elected county and city council the Health Act 2004, both inside and outside the members with the Health Service Executive. As Oireachtas. The Government recognised the I have stated previously, elected members were necessity for such involvement and in the Act never a burden on the health service, but by tra- provided for the establishment of a number of dition were the voice of the people and a first forums to involve both local public representa- port of call for those who were lost and ignored tives and users of health services. These include in a bureaucratic system. the establishment of a national health consulta- As Members are aware, the HSE took over tive forum to advise the Minister for Health and responsibility for the management and delivery of Children on matters relating to the provision of health and personal social services on a national health and personal social services, the establish- basis on 1 January 2005 without any local input. ment of regional health forums comprising rep- Hence, the function of the regional health forums resentatives of city and county councils within the will be to make representations to the Health functional area of each forum and a provision to Service Executive on the range and operation of enable the Health Service Executive to establish health and personal social services provided advisory panels to involve the local community within their functional areas. Section 42(3) of the in decisions about the delivery of health services Act provides for members to be appointed to a which affect them. regional health forum by the city and county As Senator Bannon noted, section 42 of the councils in the forum’s functional area. However, Health Act 2004 provides for the establishment no specific details have been made available as to of not more than four regional health forums. how many members will be appointed per local The Act provides that membership of the forums authority or whether membership will be drawn will be based on nominations from city and up on a per capita basis. If this was the case, it county councils within the functional area of each would place smaller counties like my native forum. These forums will facilitate local represen- County Longford and others at a great dis- tatives in raising issues of local concern in respect advantage. of health services within their region with the I am disappointed that since the health boards Health Service Executive. The Government will were abolished, communication has been at an put these arrangements in place to ensure that all-time low and elected representatives have the voice of local public representatives will con- been left in the dark as regards the personnel tinue to be heard with regard to the development within the HSE. I know from personal experience of health services. These arrangements are the number of representations with which a designed to complement and reinforce the role of Member of the Oireachtas must deal and without the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health and the correct names to hand, it is extremely difficult Children in reflecting the views of public rep- to channel representations in the most relevant resentatives in the ongoing oversight of the direction. health services. Hence, I call on the Minister of State to bring The regulations will specify the title of each forward regulations to engage local elected forum and define its functional area, the number members with the new HSE without further delay of members for each forum, the number of 851 Security of the 25 October 2005. Elderly 852

[Mr. S. Power.] in Limerick has received any funding or any members from each city and county council to be explanation as to when funding will be nominated to each forum and the requirements allocated. relating to the manner in which the functions of Second, I am receiving applications practi- a forum are to be performed. They will also set cally every week for these alarms from elderly out the procedures for appointing members to a people who have lost their partners, brothers forum, the election of a chairperson and vice- or sisters and are now living on their own, chairperson of a forum, filling of casual vacancies, mostly, may I add, in rural areas. I have to tell the meetings of a forum, the establishment of you that the scheme will not be operational committees and the appointment of their until 2006 while applications will be submitted members and ensuring the proper administration by the end of May. They may possibly be eli- of each forum. gible for a personal alarm by October-Nov- The Department has prepared a draft of the ember, which means a waiting period of 12 regulations and has been in consultation with the months. Surely this is not a scheme to benefit Health Service Executive on the provisions in the the elderly, who are advised to live in their own draft regulations. Following the completion of homes and not be a burden on the State by that consultation, the Ta´naiste will consult with being cared for in nursing homes or hospitals. the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Third, when the scheme was first introduced, Local Government on the regulations, as the grant for same was 90% of the cost. Since required by the 2004 Act prior to making the being administered by the Department of regulations. It is her intention to complete these Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, the consultations quickly so as to have regulations grant has been reduced to \300, which means made and the regional health forums established that a pensioner is expected to pay \165, as soon as possible. The regulations establishing whereas with a 90% grant, all a person had to the forums will be laid before both Houses of the pay was approximately \50. Surely this is a sad Oireachtas as soon as they have been made. reflection on how the Government is treating ´ The Tanaiste looks forward to having the its senior citizens. I might add that the need for regional health forums established as soon as pos- these personal alarms is greater each day. Old sible so that local elected public representatives age pensioners cannot afford \165 for these can make their views known to the Health alarms, as they find it very difficult to live on Service Executive on issues relating to the range their small pensions considering the cost of liv- and operation of health and personal social ing increases in fuel, ESB, etc. each month. services within the functional area of their regional health forum. I thank the Senator for Finally, I am requesting you to have some- raising the matter in the House. thing positive done at once to eradicate this total disregard for our elderly, to reinstate the Mr. Bannon: Could the Minister of State give grant to 90% and make provision for an emer- me a timeframe? gency fund to be made available for alarms to be fitted when the urgent need arises. Mr. S. Power: Soon. Even were I to prepare a script, I could not articulate the matter better than this person, who Mr. Bannon: Will it be as soon as possible? is genuinely concerned about the issue. From time to time and in my capacity as a public rep- Mr. S. Power: We will keep the Senator fully resentative for the area, I refer people for con- informed. sideration for these security alarms, which are extremely important to elderly people living on Security of the Elderly. their own. A situation I have seen evolving over the past ten years is that of a number of break- Mr. Finucane: The easiest way to table this ins in rural locations. It is a sad reflection on our issue is to read from a letter that describes a times that this is happening but these people rely situation very eloquently: on security pendants or monitors. People who I am a voluntary worker for the Society of voluntarily provide this service are expecting a St. Vincent de Paul. I am writing regarding the more professional approach from the Minister of scheme of community support for older people State’s Department. first introduced in 1997-98, now being adminis- Regarding dormant accounts funding, and the tered by the Department of Community, Rural Minister of State may correct me, the funding is and Gaeltacht Affairs. I am very frustrated within his Department. Therefore, it appears with the way this scheme is being administered. there is funding to examine this issue. The main First, the applications this year had to be two components would be to return to the 90% received by 5 p.m. on 24 March. So far, no of cost grant and that, for a person who applies application for socially monitored personal in October or November, it will not be November alarms sent by me through our regional office of next year before they get an alarm. The 853 Security of the 25 October 2005. Elderly 854

Department must be able to respond on a more I am aware that a number of suppliers have urgent basis if a case warrants it. quoted under \300 for the installation of socially monitored alarms, which are, therefore, being Minister of State at the Department of Com- grant-aided to 100% under the scheme. This munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Mr. N. effectively leaves the individual applicants with Ahern): I thank Senator Finucane. As he said, the nothing to pay for their socially monitored scheme of community support for older people alarms. This is why we placed a limit. It was not was transferred to the Department of Com- to save money or get any elderly person a por- munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs in 2002 from tion. We saw that different suppliers were sending the Department of Social and Family Affairs. The in prices from \250 up to \450 or \500 and we scheme was originally established in the mid- were paying 90%, which did not seem to make 1990s in response to a spate of burglaries of sense for different products that were roughly the homes of older people and was based on the con- same. We felt that we should place a guideline cept of contact with people at local level. For this limit on the scheme, which was not the lowest fig- reason, the funding was provided to voluntary ure. This year, a number of applications and quo- and community organisations rather than grant tations have been received below the \300 mark. aiding individuals in order to assist and stimulate In these cases, our funding goes further and broader community support for older people. The everyone seems to be happy. scheme is, therefore, administered by local com- The changes introduced last year have no munity and voluntary groups with the support of implications for the overall funding available for my Department. the scheme. A total of \2.8 million has been allo- Since its inception, funding of \30 million has cated to the scheme this year, which is an increase been awarded to community and voluntary of 17% on last year’s amount of \2.4 million. The organisations to provide socially monitored scheme is currently advertised on an annual basis alarms and other security items for those with a specified closing date. Given the nature of members of the community in need of such the scheme, my Department exercises a degree of equipment. Funding can be provided under the flexibility concerning the closing date. After this scheme for the once-off cost of installing socially date and in circumstances where an individual monitored alarm systems, window locks, door requires equipment urgently, the Department will locks, door chains designed to strengthen points accept additional applicants to the group’s appli- of entry to the dwelling and outside security light- cation during the period of processing. If some- ing. In 2004, we introduced a grant in respect of one contacts us and says they need more before smoke alarms. we give them the grant, we can adjust the appli- The maximum grants available to individuals cation at that stage, which is a period of a few are \300 in respect of socially monitored alarms, months. \150 in respect of physical security equipment, The Department has also received a number of such as locks and chains, \150 in respect of secur- proposals in respect of the facilitation of emer- ity lighting and \50 in respect of smoke alarms. gency cases on a year-long basis. I accept there is Many community groups that apply do so for a occasionally a need for this but many groups range of these. Some groups that might be more seem to get by. Perhaps they have ordered 20 or attached to a number of installers are inclined to 50 and some people have moved out of the area apply under only one heading, namely, the or passed on by the time they arrive. Therefore, alarms. However, the real community groups they often have a spare or two. Most groups seem apply for a range of different items and it is very to get by without experiencing major problems. easy to spot the different applications. The idea of an emergency fund will be considered Funding was provided at 90% of the cost of the when the guidelines come up for next year. We equipment between 1997 to 2003. In 2004, follow- have a closing date once a year and it was much ing a review of the scheme, this 90% limit on earlier this year than last. People wanted us to funding was abolished and replaced with individ- bring it forward and we did. The Department ual maximum grants, as I mentioned above. considers these situations on a case by case basis Grant levels were fixed by the Department on the when they arise. Every effort is made by the basis of the grants sought and paid out in the pre- Department, in co-operation with the voluntary vious year. Therefore, we are giving grants and bodies, to facilitate such cases. asking people to send in details of their quo- I am sure Senator Finucane will appreciate the tations to determine what is happening. Pre- scheme has run for the greater part of a decade, viously, some suppliers kept on putting up prices supplying security equipment to many elderly and we were giving them 90% of whatever the people. As I mentioned, this scheme has provided quotation was. The aim of the individual approximately \30 million to assist elderly maximum grant measure is to encourage compe- people. I am sure many homes in villages and tition between suppliers in the interest of ensur- towns and many community groups have a great ing value for money both for taxpayers and indi- deal of second-hand equipment they have taken vidual applicants. back from people who are no longer in a position 855 The 25 October 2005. Adjournment 856

[Mr. N. Ahern.] ent if security suppliers are given the equipment to use it. Often that second-hand equipment will in bulk for an estate rather than for an isolated suffice in an emergency situation for a month or rural area, where people often have to pay a bur- two before the new grant is received. den of more than \160? Personal security depends on a range of factors. This scheme makes a valid contribution to the Mr. N. Ahern: I do not see how that is possible. security requirements of eligible older people. Perhaps they should shop around for better We have closing date guidelines but we are value. Some groups that provide a service to com- extremely flexible. Nobody was refused or sent munity groups and senior citizen groups take away and no application was returned because it good care of the groups but they are not cheap. was received on the Monday morning after the It may be that some products are better than Friday closing date. We are extremely flexible others but I do not think major differences exist. while cases are being processed. Approximately The Department is flexible, even if an appli- 100 groups have already received funding this cation was received two or three months pre- year and we are processing other applications. viously and that group contacts us to request Some of the paperwork may not have been cor- more equipment, it is possible to meet that rect and we sent a request for further details. It request while applications are being processed. is a flexible scheme which is advertised once a Once the cheque is sent out, it is regarded as com- year. We are examining the possibility of one or pleted for the year. It is not as rigid as some two groups carrying an emergency supply of people might suggest. equipment but we are not examining restoring The grant of 90% is gone. The only disadvan- the grant of 90% of the cost. Those changes will tage to that is some alarms are more than per- remain. They have been extremely effective and sonal alarms, they are medical aids that may cost the scheme is working well. I thank the Senator up to \1,000. Some of them may have been for raising the matter. covered by the grant of 90% but they are not a security measure. Some of them are alarms to Mr. Finucane: I thank the Minister of State for alert a person if his or her blood or sugar levels his response. I welcome the fact he would are up or down. One or two of those cases may apportion a fund for emergency situations. A per- no longer be covered, but it is arguable whether son applying now must wait until the closing date they should ever have been approved. We work next May and might not get the security pendant with many community groups that provide an until the same time next year. The situation of a excellent service at voluntary level and we are group of houses in a housing estate is different prepared to examine good suggestions. At the from that of houses in isolated rural areas such as same time we want a manageable scheme. those in west Limerick about which I am often approached. I refer people in these areas to the The Seanad adjourned at 5.35 p.m. until people involved for advice. Is the situation differ- 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 26 October 2005.