Fifh Session, 41st Parliament

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD)

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY, SECTION A

Virtual Meeting Tursday, July 23, 2020 Afernoon Meeting Issue No. 14

Presiding Ofcers:

RAJ CHOUHAN, DEPUTY SPEAKER

SPENCER CHANDRA HERBERT, DEPUTY CHAIR, COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

ISSN 2563-3511 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC

Fifth Session, 41st Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Darryl Plecas

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. John Horgan Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Carole James Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training...... Hon. Melanie Mark Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Lana Popham Attorney General...... Hon. David Eby, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Minister of State for Child Care...... Hon. Katrina Chen Minister of Citizens’ Services...... Hon. Anne Kang Minister of Education ...... Hon. Rob Fleming Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ...... Hon. Bruce Ralston Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy...... Hon. George Heyman Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Adrian Dix Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Economic Development and Competitiveness...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Minister of State for Trade...... Hon. George Chow Minister of Labour ...... Hon. Harry Bains Minister of Mental Health and Addictions...... Hon. Judy Darcy Minister of Municipal Afairs and Housing...... Hon. Selina Robinson Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction...... Hon. Shane Simpson Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture...... Hon. Lisa Beare Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon. Claire Trevena

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Ofcial Opposition...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Leader of the Tird Party ...... Adam Olsen Deputy Speaker...... Raj Chouhan Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Simon Gibson Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel...... Seunghee Suzie Seo Clerk Assistant, Parliamentary Services...... Artour Sogomonian Clerk Assistant, Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ...... Susan Sourial Senior Research Analyst...... Jennifer Arril Senior Research Analyst...... Karan Riarh Acting Sergeant-at-Arms...... Greg Nelson ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Penticton Abbotsford-Mission...... Simon Gibson Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton ...... Hon. Darryl Plecas Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Michael de Jong, QC Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Boundary-Similkameen...... Linda Larson Begg, Garry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Guildford Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Hon. Anne Kang Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Katrina Chen Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Janet Routledge Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Donna Barnett Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End ...... Coralee Oakes Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Chilliwack ...... John Martin Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack-Kent ...... Laurie Troness Chow, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fraserview Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Doug Clovechok Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Joan Isaacs Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville ...... Hon. Selina Robinson Conroy, Hon. Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Courtenay-Comox...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Darcy, Hon. Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley ...... Sonia Furstenau Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North...... de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West ...... Ian Paton Dean, Mitzi (NDP)...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Esquimalt-Metchosin ...... Mitzi Dean D’Eith, Bob (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola ...... Jackie Tegart Dix, Hon. Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Tompson ...... Peter Milobar Donaldson, Hon. Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Tompson...... Todd Stone Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Norm Letnick Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission ...... Steve Tomson Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam ...... Ben Stewart Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay East...... Tom Shypitka Foster, Eric (BC Liberal)...... Vernon-Monashee Kootenay West...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Fraser, Hon. Scott (NDP) ...... Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Langford–Juan de Fuca ...... Hon. John Horgan Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ...... Cowichan Valley Langley ...... Mary Polak Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Langley East...... Rich Coleman Glumac, Rick (NDP)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Maple Ridge–Mission...... Bob D’Eith Heyman, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Hon. Lisa Beare Horgan, Hon. John (NDP) ...... Langford–Juan de Fuca Mid Island–Pacifc Rim...... Hon. Scott Fraser Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Nanaimo...... Sheila Malcolmson Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley James, Hon. Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Nechako Lakes...... John Rustad Johal, Jas (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Queensborough Nelson-Creston ...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)...... Delta North New Westminster...... Hon. Judy Darcy Kang, Hon. Anne (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake North Coast ...... Jennifer Rice Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)...... Shuswap North Island...... Hon. Claire Trevena Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Bowinn Ma Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Tornthwaite Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ...... Courtenay-Comox Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Parksville-Qualicum...... Michelle Stilwell Ma, Bowinn (NDP)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Dan Davies Malcolmson, Sheila (NDP) ...... Nanaimo Peace River South ...... Mike Bernier Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Penticton ...... Dan Ashton Martin, John (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack Port Coquitlam...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–North Tompson Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Rick Glumac Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Mungall, Hon. Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie...... Mike Morris Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount ...... Shirley Bond Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)...... Saanich North and the Islands ...... Teresa Wat Paton, Ian (BC Liberal)...... Delta South Richmond-Queensborough...... Jas Johal Plecas, Hon. Darryl (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South ...... Linda Reid Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston ...... John Yap Popham, Hon. Lana (NDP)...... Saanich North and the Islands ...... Adam Olsen Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South ...... Hon. Lana Popham Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Shuswap...... Greg Kyllo Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond South Centre Skeena...... Ellis Ross Rice, Jennifer (NDP)...... North Coast Stikine...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Robinson, Hon. Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Marvin Hunt Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)...... Skeena Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Routledge, Janet (NDP)...... Burnaby North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Rachna Singh Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Guildford...... Garry Begg Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton...... Hon. Harry Bains Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Surrey-Panorama ...... Jinny Sims Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey South ...... Stephanie Cadieux Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley ...... Hon. Bruce Ralston Sims, Jinny (NDP)...... Surrey-Panorama Surrey–White Rock ...... Tracy Redies Singh, Rachna (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. George Heyman Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna West Vancouver–False Creek...... Sam Sullivan Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fraserview...... Hon. George Chow Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–South Tompson Vancouver-Hastings ...... Hon. Shane Simpson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Kensington...... Mable Elmore Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kingsway...... Hon. Adrian Dix Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Langara...... Michael Lee Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Hon. Melanie Mark Tomson, Steve (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Point Grey ...... Hon. David Eby, QC Tornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver-Quilchena...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Troness, Laurie (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack-Kent Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond North Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Hon. Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake...... Hon. Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano...... Ralph Sultan Yap, John (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Jordan Sturdy

Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; Independent 2; BC Green Party 2

CONTENTS

Tursday, July 23, 2020 Afernoon Meeting Page

Committee of Supply

Proceedings in Section A ...... 233 Estimates: Ministry of Jobs, Economic Development and Competitiveness (continued) S. Tomson Hon. M. Mungall D. Barnett J. Sturdy C. Oakes

233

THURSDAY, JULY 23, 2020 volving B.C. companies and organizations. Te total value of for- eign direct investment infuenced by ministry programs was more than $1.3 billion, exceeding the target of $1.2 billion. Te total Te committee met at 1:35 p.m. number of export deals facilitated by trade investment representa- tives reached 216, well exceeding the target of 150. Tey also give a [S. Malcolmson in the chair.] valuation of export deals facilitated by representatives.” For 2017-18, those numbers were $449.7 billion. Committee of Supply “So diversifcation is important. Trade is important for a small, open economy like British Columbia, and through these services, Proceedings in Section A the ministry is working to expand or reach into markets that will create new revenue streams for B.C. companies for years to come.” ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF Tose were the comments of the former minister in the JOBS, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT estimates last year. AND COMPETITIVENESS [1:40 p.m.] (continued) Tis leads to the obvious frst question that we want to pose to the minister. Why did the ministry, suddenly and On Vote 34: ministry operations, $93,116,000 without consultation, announce the closure of 13 trade (continued). ofces in our key markets in Asia on December 31, New Year’s Eve day, in 2019? Te Chair: Good afernoon, everybody. I’m Sheila Mal- colmson. I’m your Chair this afernoon, the member for Hon. M. Mungall: I think it’s really important, if we’re Nanaimo. going to be referring back to past estimates, to do the I want to recognize that I am participating from the ter- whole thing rather than just one quote. ritory of the Lək̓ ʷəŋin̓ əŋ-speaking people, the Esquimalt In those past estimates, I’m assured by staf…. Actually, and Songhees First Nations. Te rest of the members on part of the discussion led to them saying and signalling the committee are from all over British Columbia on tra- that a review was about to take place because it was ditional territories, First Nations territories all over Brit- needed. Te last review of the model for trade representa- ish Columbia. We extend our appreciation to them for us tion was done in 2011. So of course, eight years later it’s a doing our work on their land. good time to start doing a review. We are meeting today to continue consideration of the [1:45 p.m.] estimates of the Ministry of Jobs, Economic Development We selected PricewaterhouseCoopers to do that review and Competitiveness. Te minister is here to answer ques- of our international model. It was selected through a com- tions from the opposition. petitive bid process. Te review examined a range of top- ics, including what’s working, what could be improved, S. Tomson: Tank you, Chair, for taking on the role of how the jurisdictions manage their international networks the Chair for the proceedings for a while this afernoon. and possible alternative models for B.C. to consider. Good afernoon to the minister and her staf that she Te member suggested we did not do any consultation. has with her in responding here. I want to correct the record. We actually did. We consulted Our focus for the next couple of hours, I think, is with our trade and investment ofces. We consulted with going to be on the trade component or trade respons- other ministries, Global Afairs Canada, Invest in Canada, ibilities of the ministry, noting that that may no longer B.C. sector associations, regional and economic develop- appear in the ministry descriptor. But with a province ment agencies and companies as well as individuals in oth- where we’re heavily reliant on trade for economic er jurisdictions who operate trade and investment models. prosperity, this is a critical part of the operations of the In fact, I would say the consultation was quite robust. ministry and of the province. Notice was sent to our existing ofces. Our review gave I just want to refect back to the estimates last year with us the suggestion, and we decided to go with a diferent the former minister, when we talked about the interna- model. A notice was sent to contractors, in accordance tional trade work and international trade division. I want with provisions, on December 31. to read into the record his comments at that time when he Now what we have in place is that many of our trade made his statements. Tis was in lauding and comment- ofces are embedded within the Canadian embassy. Many ing on the success and the efectiveness of the trade invest- of the people who are doing the work are the very same ment representatives and the TIR network. people who were in our trade ofces in the previous mod- Here’s what he said at that time. Tis is from the record. el. What we found is that this model is much more efcient and allows us to team up with the brand, with the Canada “I mentioned our trade and investment representatives, who actively connect B.C. businesses with new markets and trade. brand as well, and we’re able to deliver better marketing as Tey’ve given me some statistics about their efectiveness. Let me a result. just run through a few of them. “Tey’ve facilitated over 483 inbound and outbound trips in- 234 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 23, 2020

S. Tomson: Tank you to the minister for that answer. We have that due diligence; we have that legal require- Te basis, as the minister has pointed out, was based on ment. Tat’s defnitely the case here. a review and a report by PwC. Last year there were ref- We are not releasing that report for general public con- erences to the report being done. It’s important to note sumption, because we have a legal responsibility to protect that there was an initial process, and nobody took up the the privacy of the people who have been involved, includ- response to the RFP for that initial process. Ten it was ing the contractors and the subcontractors. Te member is restructured, and PricewaterhouseCoopers did the work. more than welcome to see the document, once it has been Will the minister release this report so that the released through the freedom-of-information request, and decisions and the actions taken to date on that can be will be able to look at the information that is legally, pub- measured and assessed against the fndings and recom- licly available. mendations of that report? S. Tomson: Well, in the interests of transparency and Hon. M. Mungall: Just for the record, the two RFPs accountability, I would have thought that those steps that the member is asking about are actually two sep- could have been taken. If there were specifc privacy arate RFPs trying to achieve two separate and diferent issues in there, those could have been taken out. Te things. I’m told it was canvassed last year in estimates. overall approach and the basis for the decision…. I think In the interest of time — I know that the members have that the question here is: what were the main recom- lots of questions — I won’t belabour that because it’s all mendations of the review? on the record from last year. [1:55 p.m.] Whether or not the member can have the report…. Te minister said there were options. Obviously, one What has happened is that a political party has put in a option has been chosen. What was the analysis behind freedom-of-information request for that report. Terefore, those options? What was the business case and the legal it will be posted online. Te parts of it that are available for analysis done on the specifc options? Tat, obviously, public review will be available to the member at that time. must be done in considering the options. Or if it hadn’t [1:50 p.m.] been, then it should have been. Why was the report not released? Tis is a critical component of the minister’s S. Tomson: I would have thought that as a matter of responsibilities. It involves trade association sectors, key course, this information would be provided. Te minister markets in our economy that are important to economic talked about what she noted as consultation in the process. prosperity. I think all of those that she referenced and that may have In the interest of having industry sectors and businesses, been consulted in the process would have benefted from clients of the program, in those markets understand the seeing the recommendations, the analysis and the work basis and the rationale for proceeding, I would have that was done through that process. thought that it would have been appropriate, and a I’m surprised that it hasn’t been provided and released responsibility of the minister, to release the report and the as a matter of course and that it’s had to take an FOI pro- basis on which the decisions were made. cess in order to, potentially, get some parts of that report. As I’ve pointed out, it appears to be the basis on which the Te Chair: Member, I’ll just remind you this isn’t a change or the new approach has been made. It would be debate. If you want to put that in the form of a question to important to see if, in that process, there were a business the minister, then I think that’s helpful. I’ll keep us focused case analyzed and a legal analysis done of the approach on our job at hand here. Tank you. that was chosen and recommended. I am going to ask the minister: why not simply make S. Tomson: Are you asking me to pose this as a ques- the report available? If there was the degree of consulta- tion? tion that the minister says took place, then why not release the report so that the steps taken by the min- Te Chair: Yeah. I did not, myself, hear the question in istry to go to a new model can be assessed and reviewed that. If the minister did, then I welcome her to jump in. If against other recommendations and against the decision not, then, with respect, Member, I’ll ask you to pose your that was chosen? comments in the form of a question to me, to the minister.

Hon. M. Mungall: I was just double-checking with my S. Tomson: Okay, thank you. I’ll ask the question then staf, but my initial reaction to the member’s question is to again in this way. highlight that the Freedom of Information Act has anoth- Based on the comments I made and the assertion I er component to it: privacy. When we release reports, we made, why won’t the minister simply release the report at have to make sure that we’re upholding the law on privacy this time so that the decision and recommendations can be as well. We don’t just willy-nilly release every single report. assessed and reviewed against the approach that was adop- ted and taken by this government? Thursday, July 23, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 235

Hon. M. Mungall: Te member is entitled to his opin- tion in terms of what best practices would be good for ion. Tat’s what we all come here for: to express our opin- B.C. — what was working and what wasn’t working. Tat ion. But the answer to his question stands in my previous formed the bulk of the information, in terms of the report answer. Tere are privacy concerns, and I’m not going to that then came back to government. fout the law. It would have been entirely inappropriate to then con- sult with industry stakeholders or with anyone prior to S. Tomson: I’ll take that as a no and move on to the informing contractors of what the decision was in going next question. forward. Tat would have would have been very dis- Te minister talked about the consultation process and respectful and very inappropriate to the contractors, to the engagement on this. Can the minister confrm or have people talking about their work and putting them in advise whether there was any consultation with sector the balance without giving them the appropriate notice. organizations before the decision was made about the We followed the appropriate protocols, and we did option that was chosen? We have talked extensively to the things properly, by making our decision based on the con- trade associations, the sector organizations. Tey advise sultation that was done during the review and informing that this is not the case and that they were as surprised to the contractors properly. see the option proceed, in the timing and in the way it did, as the trade representatives were in the market. S. Tomson: I’ll ask this question, maybe in a little bit Once a decision was made, it does not appear that there diferent way, to the minister. was consultation or communication with the sectors, trade Once the report was received, and Pricewaterhouse- organizations and key clients about this decision. It was Coopers had done their analysis and developed the simply announced on December 31, 2019. Can the minis- options and recommendations, did consultation take place ter advise of whether or not there was consultation once with the sectors, around the options and preferred the decision was made? approaches, before a decision was made? Or did the con- sultation process around developing options take place Hon. M. Mungall: Just to clarify, is the member asking with the sectors and PricewaterhouseCoopers’ work, if there was consultation prior to the decision or afer the which would have been a natural part of their process? decision? He has asked the question in two diferent ways. Once the report was received and the options developed I just want that clarifcation. — the minister did advise that there were a number of options — did consultation take place with trade organiz- S. Tomson: Te question is: were trade associations ations, with sectoral organizations, with clients of the pro- and industry organization sectors consulted once a gram, around those options? Which one might be the best decision was made and consulted before the action was one to take, and which would have been their preferred taken? option? [2:00 p.m.] [2:05 p.m.]

Hon. M. Mungall: Member and Chair, you’ll note that Hon. M. Mungall: It’s really important to note, as I said in a previous answer, I listed of those who were consulted. earlier, that the services haven’t changed. So the “what” we I noted that our trade and investment ofces were con- are doing and what we are delivering on behalf of British sulted, other ministries, Global Afairs Canada, Invest in Columbians has not changed. It’s the “how.” How we do it Canada, B.C. sector associations, regional economic devel- has changed. opment agencies and companies and individuals in other Teir government, when they were in power, and our jurisdictions who operate trade and investment models. government, when we were in power…. We don’t go back Te answer to this member’s question is yes. and ask industry associations how we should deliver par- ticular services. We don’t ask whether we should continue S. Tomson: Tat wasn’t the question. I’m not disputing on or not continue on with contracts. Tat is something that there may have been some consultation with organ- that we decide on. Te process that the member keeps try- izations as PWC was doing their review around the pro- ing to highlight as fair is not that. It’s very inappropri- cesses, the structure and the framework for the network, ate. It’s very costly to the taxpayer. I don’t think it’s very and the work in those key markets. respectful of the people who are in the positions of con- Te question is: once the ministry had completed their tracting the work. analysis and decided to move forward with the option, was there consultation and engagement with the organizations S. Tomson: I think what’s disrespectful in this process around the decision that was taken and that was planned is having the discussions with the key stakeholders who to move forward with, or not? rely on those markets, who help contribute to that eco- nomic prosperity in this province and who have had the Hon. M. Mungall: Te review conducted that consulta- success in the program that we’ve had to date in building 236 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 23, 2020 those markets and not have that consultation with them to get out of what were some very high-priced leases. Tat’s around the preferred options and choice. because we’re partnering with the embassies. So we were To simply say, “We’re government, we can decide what able to get out of those high-priced leases. we want to do, and we don’t have to consult,” I think is dis- With those savings, we’re putting them right back into respectful to those organizations that have worked in part- programming. Tis budget item stays the same, but we’re nership with government over all these years in developing actually, with savings from the administration side, able to those markets. Tat is a very, very surprising comment on put in more programming to provide better services and the part of the minister. trade marketing for British Columbian businesses. Te minister indicated in her earlier comments about the timing and the decision to proceed with the option S. Tomson: A follow-up question on that. What were that the government decided on — apparently without the the termination requirements under the employment consultation with the key partners in the program — was agreements? And what were the severance costs for the done on December 31 in accordance with notice provi- termination of those employment agreements? sions and other factors. To the minister, what were those notice provisions? Hon. M. Mungall: We’re in the middle of contract nego- Why the apparent imperative to proceed on December 31, tiations. Tose numbers are not available at this time, but New Year’s Eve day, with the announcement? What drove they will be released with the public accounts. the timing and the decisions around that announcement at that time? S. Tomson: We’ll look forward to reviewing that infor- [2:10 p.m.] mation in the public accounts process. As pointed out in our earlier comments, the trade com- Hon. M. Mungall: Te reason why we sent out notice ponent is very, very critical to the province in terms of its on December 31, December 30 in Canada and December economic prosperity for resource-dependent commodities 31 in Asia…. In both jurisdictions, to the best of my know- and other sectors and in terms of the export market and ledge, that was a business day. It might not be a day that the those key markets in the Asia-Pacifc and India. member likes, because he seems to have taken issue with Looking at the numbers — and I’m sure the minister it, but it is a business day. knows these numbers — B.C. international exports have Te reason why we gave notice that day is because we continued to decline. Exports are down 14.7 percent year wanted to make sure that our contracts had at least 90 to date compared to the same period in 2019. Tey’re days’ notice that these changes were going to take place. down in most of the major destinations: mainland China, Some of those contracts were coming to a natural end on down 13 percent; South Korea, down 30 percent; EU, March 31. Back up, and December 31 becomes that 90-day down 45 percent; India, down 48 percent; Taiwan, down period. However, those contracts, interestingly, didn’t 15 percent; U.K., down 11 percent. formally require a 90-day notice. We did so because that’s [2:20 p.m.] good practice. It’s standard practice, and we wanted to Tese are pretty concerning numbers at this particular make sure that we were doing things in a respectful way. time, particularly as sectors focus on rebuilding. Continu- I also want to note that there were some very important ing to develop dedicated support of those key markets lease considerations, in terms of the spaces that govern- is imperative. To be frank, that support doesn’t currently ment was leasing. We didn’t want to incur added expense appear to be there in this transition process. In fact, it’s a to the taxpayer by having to pay extended leases. We transition and implementation process that, to this point, wanted to make sure that the time frame for the con- has a lot of faws in it. Tere are some real challenges, tracts…. When they came to a close, the lease would come in terms of the implementation and the transition, which to a close. So we wanted to make sure we had sufcient refect back to our earlier comment that I don’t think the notice to also close those leases in a timely way and not be option was fully analyzed from a business and legal per- forced into spending money for space we weren’t using. spective and that lacks a clear plan. Can the minister advise if there is a new detailed TIR S. Tomson: Can the minister provide an estimate of framework plan that’s in place, and can the minister the costs incurred in 2019-20 in terms of the transition provide a copy of that plan? and the projected costs in the 2020-21 budget for the transition and the implementation of the new model? Hon. M. Mungall: I’m a little bit disappointed that the [2:15 p.m.] member has failed to put the context around the numbers he was ofering. We need to do that. Hon. M. Mungall: Te member is wondering about the What has happened in the world, in the time frame, costs associated with the transition. Tere are no costs year to date, in terms of international exports, is COV- associated with the transition. In fact, what we are realiz- ID-19. Because COVID-19 started in Asia and their infec- ing are some savings to administrative costs. We were able tion rate grew quite quickly there, they shut down. We Thursday, July 23, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 237 know all these stories. We’ve seen people telling their stor- why haven’t we done everything? We have to make sure ies — Canadians who were in Wuhan telling their stories that we’re not ignoring the biggest thing that’s happening about what that was all like. in the world right now and acknowledging how it impacts We know that’s the case, and we know that demand all of government business — in particular, the business for imports drastically reduced in those places. Tat’s the we have with Asia, which has been dealing with COVID so actual context of the numbers that the member is present- much longer than we have here in British Columbia. ing. It’s not about the trade ofces that he tried to correlate I don’t want to negate the hard work that people on it to whatsoever. the ground have been doing and having to do it through I want to reiterate, though, that the services that we are this global pandemic. Tey’ve been doing exceptional delivering are the same. In terms of whether we have TIR work, and I really want to thank them for being able to framework plans, absolutely we do. We have very detailed deliver on these transitions in the midst of what is the strategies that are based on widespread consultation, and largest global crisis that I’m sure my generation will ever the people who are in those positions to deliver on those see in their lives. plans are doing so. [2:30 p.m.] Te member made some comments about where things S. Tomson: Firstly, context is important. As you poin- are at regarding forestry and forestry exports. You know, ted out, that wasn’t…. I’ve got to just say that he had many, many years to build Te context of my question, though, was…. Tat’s one up B.C.’s forestry sector when he was the minister. Any of the factors. Tere are other factors that are in play, res- concerns that he has about how he was not able to succeed ulting in reduced exports as well — factors like having the in doing so, I’m going to leave with him. least-competitive framework for delivered log costs in our forest sector in British Columbia. Te minister only needs S. Tomson: I’ll leave the minister with the report that to look at the report by Russ Taylor. She should take a look analyzes and identifes the fact that, currently and over at that and make herself familiar with that as a factor in the last number of years, the additional costs that have this case, as well. been brought upon the industry have created the highest [2:25 p.m.] delivered log costs and the least competitive position that Te context of the question was, at this time, with the this industry has been in, in a long, long time. factors…. COVID is one of those factors, and others. I’ll move on with a question around the transition in What is critically important is that there is a well-func- those ofces and in those key markets. Tis may be some- tioning TIR, trade representative, framework in place and thing that will have to be provided in a written summary. settled in those markets to assist companies in rebuilding Can the minister provide two things: the detailed plans from this. It’s the path forward in these key markets. It’s and the detailed TIR framework? Can the minister provide going to be critical for our economic recovery. the summary of the transition arrangements in each of the Te reality is in those markets…. Despite a detailed ofces and the number of staf involved in that transition, implementation plan that the minister just referenced, she in comparison to the previous ofces, for each of those didn’t respond to the question around whether she would 13 ofces where the minister says that all but a couple are provide that detailed framework and detailed plans to us. fully transitioned? So I’dask the question again to the minister just to confrm whether she would provide those detailed plans. So that’s Hon. M. Mungall: Te member was asking if he can one question. have some of these details in writing. I’dlike to increase the Te second part of the question is: can the minister level of support we can give the member and ofer him a confrm or advise on, of the ofces that were part of this briefng so he can get some of the details he’s looking for. change — the 13 ofces — how many ofces have actually I do want to let him know two things on that front. got the full transition and implementation completed and One is that we are continuously responding to changes done? We’re seven months afer the announcement was in the market. As he knows, because of COVID-19, these made. Te minister said the announcement needed to be changes are happening more quickly and a little bit more made on December 30 because of notice provisions. We’re unpredictably than we’ve been able to do in the past. So now seven months since that time. How many ofces have we’re trying to respond and to be nimble as best as we pos- been transitioned properly and fully into the new model in sibly can. We’re happy to give him a briefng. I just want accordance with this very detailed plan that the minister to have the caveat that things might change more quickly references? than they normally, perhaps, would have in the past. Secondly, there is certain information that’s proprietary Hon. M. Mungall: Of all the 13 ofces, only two have information that we’re not able to disclose. It could really not been able to fully transition — because of COVID, weaken our position in the trade markets. So we want to right? make sure that we’re retaining certain information that Te member is complaining that it’s been seven months; respects that proprietary confdentiality. 238 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 23, 2020

[2:35 p.m.] and Singapore were not…? Can the minister confrm that With that, if the member has any further questions or if in all of those other 11 markets — China, Korea, Japan, he wants anything else in writing, please do let me know. Indonesia, all of those markets — the transition is com- plete, all the obligations have been completed and the ser- S. Tomson: Te minister indicated that all but a couple vices, according to the detailed plan that the minister of ofces have not fully and completely transitioned into advised was in place, are in place and have been com- the new model, and transitioning into the new model pleted? It’s quite a straightforward question in terms of means staf in place, co-location in new ofces, support whether that’s the case or not. in place and all of those arrangements. Can the minister advise, at this point, where that arrangement has not been Hon. M. Mungall: Te services that we deliver are all up completed? and running. I’ll still provide the member with more detail in terms of transitioning ofces, if he likes. But to com- Hon. M. Mungall: Te two jurisdictions that have not ment on any outstanding items…. been able to transition due to delays associated with COV- Basically, like with all contracts, we have to make sure ID are India and Singapore. that all the i’s are dotted and all the t’s are crossed on behalf of British Columbian taxpayers, and we’re in those fnal S. Tomson: Can the minister, then, advise that in all stages of doing that. So we’re just doing some fnancial those other ofces that are not Singapore and India, all reconciliation. transition has been completed, all commitments and [2:45 p.m.] obligations to former contractors have been completed, and a full complement of stafng, according to the plan, S. Tomson: I’ll take that answer as meaning — and the is in place in every one of those other markets where the minister can correct me if I’m wrong — that the statement trade ofces were formerly located? that all the transition implementation, all the obligations [2:40 p.m.] and everything are complete, as the minister advised, in all but two of the ofces, Singapore and India, is not correct. Hon. M. Mungall: I know that we’re sucking up mem- Tere are still obligations, issues to resolve in some of bers’ time when I get to discuss with staf the level of detail those ofces, and the level of services that were contem- of the transition. What I’m going to do is suggest to the plated in the agreement and the plan are not fully in place. member that we send him in writing where things are at in I’m going to take that as what the minister’s last answer terms of that transition. He seems to be interested in a lot indicated, unless she tells me that I’m incorrect. of the detail. Have staf transitioned? Have we moved our ofce furniture? And so on and so forth. We’ll send him Hon. M. Mungall: Chair, I’ve been in his shoes in the that level of detail. opposition, and I know when you get a gotcha and when I will let him know that we are looking to actually you don’t. Tis isn’t one. All the services are in place — increase the stafng complement in some of the locations. a few i’s and a few t’s dotting on some fnancial reconcili- We are fnding that there’s a lot of interest in B.C.’s ation. I would say that the services that British Columbi- products in some locations. I want to make sure that we ans need to take place are in place. have the human resources there necessary to respond to that interest so we can make sure that the interest becomes S. Tomson: I wasn’t really trying to set up a gotcha some orders and it becomes realized for British Columbia moment here. I was trying to get to the issue at hand businesses. and the question around the status of implementing these important services in the market and in each of the ofces, S. Tomson: Te debate process here, or the estimates according to plan, frst of all. questions, is the place where we get to ask the questions To back up a little bit, the PricewaterhouseCoopers and probe some of the details that relate back to the min- report that did all the analysis and moved us in this dir- istry budget for the international trade division in terms of ection has not been made available, and we’ll, according the program, the costs, what liabilities or other obligations to the minister, need to wait for the FOI process to work may be still to realize in terms of the transition. its way through to be able to get that information. Te Te question specifcally was around…. Can the min- detailed plan and framework for the services and the pro- ister confrm that all the transition implementation oblig- gram in each of those markets the minister says is avail- ations to former contractors, the ofce arrangements, all able, and I believe I heard the response that we’re going to of those details in terms of implementing and moving for- be ofered a briefng to be able to look at that framework ward on this transition plan, which has been in place for and that market against those services. seven months now…? I’ll ask again. When we see that detailed plan and what’s Te question to the minister was: can the minister con- in that detailed plan…. I’m presuming this briefng will frm that in those other markets that indicated that India take place expeditiously. Will we see in that plan that each Thursday, July 23, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 239 of the ofces and each of the services, of the services that place and transitioned in those markets. We’ll see if that’s are in those key markets, match up against that plan, and the case when we get that detailed briefng, in comparison the full services, as the minister has indicated, are in place to the plan for those specifc markets. and operational? Te question relates to, in my view…. And I think it would be in the view of taxpayers as well. Are there out- Hon. M. Mungall: I feel like that was a yes-or-no ques- standing obligations? Is there potential for outstanding tion, but I didn’t get the usual phrase at the end of a ques- obligations? Tat is part of the completion of the trans- tion period question. “Yes or no, Minister?” Te answer is ition plan. yes. Happy to give the member full details in a briefng, To the minister, has the province received notice of and I’ll make sure that we won’t wait for his ofce to reach potential obligations? If that’s the case, then the transitions out. I’ll make sure my ofce does. are not complete in those markets. Is there full transition with respect to all ofces and leases and all of those out- S. Tomson: I appreciate this is not question period, standing issues at this point? It relates back to the ministry because in this process, we actually do get some answers. budget and whether or not the ministry has set aside fund- [2:50 p.m.] ing, within the budget, for potential additional costs in the Can the minister advise whether the province has transition. received notice of disputes, claims, with any of the con- tractors in the ofces over termination of the employment, Hon. M. Mungall: As it relates to the budget, what we’re over closure of the ofces? Tis is getting to the point of waiting for are the amounts owed to the province. outstanding obligations, which is one of the questions that I asked. Tat is part of full transition and implementation: S. Tomson: Could the minister confrm that there are that all of those obligations and commitments be made. no outstanding obligations to any of the contractors or Tis is more than just dotting i’s. employees — people who have been involved in providing Can the minister advise if the province has received those services to the province, in partnership with trade notice? Tat means that the full transition and implement- organizations and with sectors, for many years of service ation into the new services is not complete in a number of in those important markets? those markets. I’ve been in those markets. I’ve seen the work that the trade industry representatives do in those markets and the Hon. M. Mungall: First, I’m going to address this hair- relationships that they have built up. splitting I see coming from the opposition that — if we Can the minister confrm that there are no outstanding haven’t dotted all the i’s and crossed all the t’s but we obligations in that respect? are delivering full services — when I said we have fully transitioned, it was somehow incorrect. I want to be really Hon. M. Mungall: As far as we’re concerned, what we clear that when I talk about fully transitioning, I’m talking contend is that there are no outstanding obligations to about services. Tat’s what people on the ground are look- anyone. Rather, there are obligations owed to the province. ing to see. Te bit about whether all the i’s are dotted and all the S. Tomson: I think I want to ask some questions here t’s are crossed, in terms of fnancial reconciliation…. If the around the agreements that were in place. I can list some member wants to try and have a gotcha moment, that’s his of these questions, and the minister can respond. I’ll ask prerogative. But it just isn’t. these questions with a number of questions in the overall In terms of where things are at with the fnancial question. Tis is with respect to the contracts and the liab- reconciliation — I think that’s where the member is try- ilities that have been in place or were in place. ing to get to — what we do have are some balances owed [3:00 p.m.] to the province that are still outstanding as part of the Is there a standard form of foreign service agreements fnancial reconciliation. But again, those services have and employment agreements for the trade ofces? What’s transitioned. the governing law over each of those agreements? What are the termination provisions for each of the foreign ser- S. Tomson: I’m not trying to set up a gotcha moment. vices agreements and the employment agreements? Has I’m not trying to split hairs here. Te process of the estim- the province complied with the termination provisions of ates here is to determine, within the budget of the inter- both the foreign services agreements and the employment national trade division component of the ministry, if there agreements? What liabilities arise from that, both for the are potential outstanding liabilities or costs, and whether foreign service agreements and the employment agree- or not the transition plan has been completed. ments? [2:55 p.m.] I said earlier…. Te minister, again, is asserting — and Hon. M. Mungall: Sorry, Chair. I just want to make sure I’ll take that assertion for now — that all services are in I understood from the member that he wanted the answers 240 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 23, 2020 to these in writing. If that’s the case, happily, we’ll defnitely al arrangement? Who do they report to? What are the lines get those to him in writing. of accountability, direction and oversight for those staf? Who will be managing them? Will they be managed by Te Chair: Member, was that your intention? the province, or will they be managed by federal Global Afairs staf in those co-located ofces? Who does the S. Tomson: Yes, I think we can go on that basis at this oversight and the determination that those employees are time. Te point being…. meeting the commitments? What’s the reporting relation- It’s very clear from the responses to the questions that ship, and what’s the nature of their employment provision full transition and implementation of the plan is not com- with the province and/or the federal government? pleted and is not in place in a number of those markets. Te minister can talk about services, but what’s also Hon. M. Mungall: I want to make sure that we have this important is for an understanding of the obligations that correct information on the record. Our previous contracts may be in place, the obligations to contractors who have with contractors were not contracts for employment. Tey put in years of service to the province in helping build were contracts for services. It’s an important distinction, those important markets. and I wanted to make sure that that was on the record so Te minister’s apparent view that there’s no amount that we were all working with the same information. owing, that there are no liabilities and that there are no To answer the member’s questions, the employees under bases for any claims to the province — that’s the purpose the new model are employees of the federal government. of those questions. Since they are going to be provided in a Tey report to a B.C. manager who is on site. Te B.C. response in writing, I’ll add some further questions to the manager is managing the fles based on what we have dir- mix here what would come as part of that response, and ected as the provincial government. we can follow up from this session this afernoon, as well, by putting these questions in written form to the minister. S. Tomson: Can the minister, then, confrm that the Again, were employment contracts terminated in a wages, benefts costs in this provision are not part of the manner in which no liabilities, including severance, were $26 million budget in the Ministry of Jobs, Economic incurred? What legal review or HR process was under- Development and Competitiveness? taken to address the manner in which the termination of the foreign service agreements and employment agree- Hon. M. Mungall: We have an MOU with Canada, and ments was taken? Was local legal advice sought to ensure they recover the costs from us. Tey are employees of that the province of B.C. is compliant with all the applic- Canada, but they recover those costs associated with their able laws, including the local contract laws and local wages and their employment from the province of B.C. employment laws in the jurisdictions in which those trade [3:10 p.m.] ofces are located? Has the provincial government received any notices of S. Tomson: Can the minister advise, for the current claims, or is the government aware of a basis of any claims fscal period, subject to these estimates, what the cost and against the province, including breach of contract or fail- what the value of that MOU is and how those costs com- ure to provide adequate notice of termination of employ- pare to the 2018-19 and 2019-20 fscal years? ment or contractual arrangements? Are there any disputes with other parties to the foreign Hon. M. Mungall: Tis year’s budget, compared to last service agreements or employment agreements? Are there year’s budget, remains the same. In 2018-2019, it was any notices of claims or awareness of bases of claims or slightly higher, at $11.26 million, and it’s now at $11.13 disputes, and what is the amount of the contingent liabil- million. So it’s very similar. ity? Was there assessment of the potential liability expos- ure conducted prior to the termination of the agreements? S. Tomson: In the budget of the $26 million that is in [3:05 p.m.] the international trade division within the ministry, can Tis goes back to our initial point around their not hav- the minister provide a breakdown of the allocation of that ing had the business case and legal analysis around the budget between the international trade network services options before the decision to provide the notice and the — I think we’ve got that number — and the balance of change in approach was taken. We will follow up from this the numbers, the allocation between the other compon- discussion this afernoon with those questions in writing ents of the trade ministry, domestic marketing initiatives, to the minister. trade dispute resolution, sofwood lumber case involve- A further question, then, to the minister. Can the minis- ment advocacy and litigation in those processes? So a ter describe the employment relationship for the new staf breakdown of the $26 million budget that’s in the ministry. that will be co-located in the ofces? Will they be min- istry staf? Will they be under appointment or a contractu- Hon. M. Mungall: In our reams of binders, we don’t seem to have the exact breakdown that the member is Thursday, July 23, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 241 looking for, but we’re in the process of getting it. So I Lands, Natural Resources Operations and Rural Develop- thought that while we do that, if the member has another ment as well. question that he’d like to ask…. I want to go back, reviewing the responses, with one [3:15 p.m.] question with respect to the process and the transition and implementation of the new approach in the markets. Can S. Tomson: I’ll just put another one on the record that the minister confrm whether or not, in moving forward the minister can provide in terms of the written response with the plan and the notice and the provisions around ter- or the follow-up to the questions. mination of the arrangements in each of those markets…? Tere have been a lot of changes and reorganization In each diferent country — Japan, China, Korea, Indo- within the ministry and the trade division. One thing that nesia, Tailand, India, Singapore, all the markets — was a we’d appreciate if the minister could provide is an updated legal review undertaken in moving forward with that pro- organizational chart for the trade division and the cess with respect to the employment law and contractual responsibilities around the international trade program law in those jurisdictions before the decision was made to and the domestic marketing program, particularly the role move forward with the notice provisions? Was the action of the on-site manager in those key markets. assessed against the legal provisions around contract and Another question. I wanted to ask one very quick ques- employment law in those diferent jurisdictions, which are tion. Can the minister provide an update on her work, her all diferent in terms of their employment and contract advocacy and the work of her parliamentary secretary on provisions? Was that analysis undertaken? the sofwood lumber fle? [3:25 p.m.] Te minister well knows this is a critical fle for the province, a critical fle for the forest sector, a long-standing Hon. M. Mungall: We have sought legal advice and fle, obviously complicated and involved in legal litigation. received legal advice as part of any contract that we do, But can the minister provide a quick summary of the steps including these contracts. that she has taken in terms of advocating and working on behalf of the sector as part of her responsibility for inter- S. Tomson: Te question was that you sought some national trade in that regard? legal advice. But can you confrm whether or not the legal [3:20 p.m.] review included a review of employment and labour and contractual law in each of the jurisdictions? Hon. M. Mungall: Tis is, as everyone knows, a long- standing fle for British Columbia, but Canada does Hon. M. Mungall: Te member well knows that I am remain the lead on this fle. Because the issue is in litiga- not able to disclose the details of legal advice that we tion right now, there’s a limited amount of advocacy that receive. we can undertake as a government, but that doesn’t mean we’re not doing what we can do. S. Tomson: To the minister: thank you for your I think the member is aware that this is a priority for the response. As we indicated earlier, we will follow up on Premier, and it is an item that he regularly discusses and many of these questions and issues in written format as per advocates for through his federal counterparts. I’m doing the questions I read into the record. the same. Our Minister of State for Trade, who’s on the line I do want to, again, make the point that it has become here with me, has been doing the same. clear, in terms of the response here, that it is not all settled Te Parliamentary Secretary for Forests, Lands, Natural in the termination of the former arrangements and the Resource Operations and Rural Development is with that transition into the new model and the services that are ministry, so any questions about his particular activities provided in that model. We’ll look forward to that detailed would have to be directed to that ministry. Te parlia- briefng in that regard. mentary secretary associated with this ministry is the Par- As I mentioned earlier, what we need to do is ensure liamentary Secretary for Technology. that the critical support for industries and sectors is in As the member rightly knows, this is an important issue place in those important markets. When you look at the for British Columbia. We have taken many, many steps to trade numbers, the export numbers and the decline in advance British Columbia’s interests on this, and we are export value that has taken place, there are many factors, hoping that the current issue that is in litigation will result as we’ve discussed, that are afecting that. in this dispute having resolution. Regardless of those factors, whether it is the COVID response, whether it is the competitive position of the sec- S. Tomson: Tank you to the minister for that tors, whether it is key issues in trade relationships — response. I understand, obviously, the importance of this which are a factor in some of this in key markets, which fle and the work that’s done on it. I expect this issue will is where you need to have the dedicated experienced staf be canvassed in the estimates for the Ministry of Forests, on the ground in order to deal with those — we need to ensure, within the approach, that those are in place. I think 242 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 23, 2020 it’s clear that that transition is not completed in the process more. Tey’ve been two years, over two years, waiting afer seven months from the initial decision. for answers. Tey have spent over $2 million fulflling [3:30 p.m.] the mandate from the PNP program. Tey have done We’ll explore that in the detailed briefng, when we have everything possible. that opportunity. I appreciate the ofer of the minister to Of course, along came COVID, and now, because of have staf reach out and organize that expeditiously. COVID and other issues with the federal government, Tat, I think, would complete the questions. I thank the their work permit has actually run out. Tey have been minister for her time and the time of her staf that are sup- told that they probably are going to have to leave the Cari- porting the minister on that. We look forward to further boo, leave everything behind, leave Canada and go back to discussions and the responses to the written submissions where they came from. and the questions we put on notice here. [3:35 p.m.] Tank you, Madam Chair. Tank you for your manage- My question is, Minister: why is this process so com- ment of this process for the last couple of hours. plicated? When they call for answers, they’re told to go to I’ll advise that I think the next set of questions is going a website. Tey’re told to go here, and they’re told to go to come from my colleague the MLA for Cariboo-Chilcot- there. Why is the program so difcult and so unfriendly to in. people that we invite here to invest their money?

Te Chair: Tanks to the member for Kelowna-Mission Hon. M. Mungall: Now, this sounds like it’s a particular for your work. case for some constituents of hers. Her original question that she had was: who can she talk to, to get some support D. Barnett: Tank you to my colleague from West Van- so she can support her constituents? couver–Sea to Sky for giving me the opportunity to ask a What I’m trying to understand is who her CAs are couple of questions of the minister. talking to — if they’re talking to a local ministry person, Tey’re all around one topic, Minister. Tey’re around somebody in Victoria working in the ministry or my the PNP program, which I understand your ministry has ministerial ofce. If I can fnd out who they are talking had for some time. I have some questions and some con- to, then I can fgure out where the communication cerns around this program. I’ve dealt with it with quite a breakdown is happening so that she can then do the few clients, and not very ofen does it run smoothly. work to support her constituents. My questions are…. When constituents come to my I don’t know the details of that, and I don’t ask her to ofce and they bring their concerns here, we work very reveal those details in this format. I don’t think it’s fair to diligently to try and resolve the concerns. My staf will those constituents. Tey are entitled to their privacy. What notify your ofce and try and work together. I do want to do is make sure that she has a good line of Tere seems to be a policy change. It appears…. Now communication so that she is able to advocate for them I have a case that is quite serious, quite urgent, and your and so that their particular concerns and experiences are staf will no longer deal with my staf. Tey want the being addressed properly. If she could just give me that name and the phone number of the client so they can information, and then we can go…. deal with them directly. Why and when did this policy change — that your staf D. Barnett: Minister, it’s very frustrating. Tis is not the is now not to deal with MLAs, constituency assistants and frst incident. I did put a call in to your deputy minister. ofces? What I got back — I’m sorry — was, from Victoria, some- body else. Te only thing we got was: “Please give us your Hon. M. Mungall: To the best of my knowledge, there’s constituent’s name. We’ll contact them ourselves.” no policy change. I’m just wondering who your constitu- I would appreciate if somehow…. Tis is not the frst ency assistant might be trying to contact. Is it a regional incident with this program. If this program is going to ministry staf person? Is it somebody here in Victoria? Is be user-friendly…. Could there be a review done? Talk to it my ministerial ofce? If you can let me know, I can see people like my ofce and fnd out what the problems are — where the breakdown in communication is taking place I’ve asked over and over again — and have this program be and fx that for you. user-friendly. Te advertising we have gotten so far from some people is not very good when we’re trying to encour- D. Barnett: Tank you, Minister. My client is very age people to come here to work. upset. Back to the PNP program. COVID came along, and of Hon. M. Mungall: My ministry ofce staf is working course, there was some time that these PNP issues could on this issue with the member’s CA. Te last contact not be addressed. they had was just a week ago. So the individual’s con- My clients now have come from another country. cerns are being heard. Tey came here on good faith. Tis is just one; I’ve had Te reason why we’ve asked for the constituent’s contact Thursday, July 23, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 243 details is because what we were hearing from the CA is intends to accomplish that and, perhaps, provide some that it’s quite complex. Tey are in the entrepreneur side of specifc examples of how that has actually happened. Does the PNP program, which is a lengthier program and path the minister have any targets — does the ministry have any to immigration. targets — associated with this mandate requirement? We want to make sure that we’re getting all the details [3:45 p.m.] accurately so that we can address their needs. Tat’s why the request was made to call the constituent directly. If Hon. M. Mungall: Te answer to this question is actu- they’re not comfortable with that, that’s fair. We can maybe ally something that we canvassed earlier today — the same have a teleconference with your CA, with yourself and questions but regarding the service plan. We answered this with your constituents so that they have an advocate in the question for opposition members from the Tird Party as room. More than happy to accommodate. well. So I’m just wondering if the member really does need I want to assure the member that we are doing our level me to say the same things I’ve said before. best to support her constituent. J. Sturdy: I guess my recollection was that there are no D. Barnett: Minister, I have the email here from your real targets or actions that the ministry is taking at this staf, which said: “We….” In other words: “Don’t bother us particular time to support competitiveness across all sec- anymore. We want to deal with the client directly.” Te cli- tors — or no cross-government initiatives and objectives ent, basically, does not speak that fuently and is very con- that the ministry has. cerned. [3:40 p.m.] Hon. M. Mungall: I previously said that there are sev- It’s very upsetting to my staf that work very hard to eral initiatives. Tere are multiple initiatives. In fact, there understand the issues when this is the response we get. is the Major Investments and Corporate Initiatives Ofce, which leads activities, as a secretariat, for cross-ministry Te Chair: Member, could you put that in the form of a government strategic initiatives that enhance our compet- question, please? itiveness.

D. Barnett: Sorry, Madam Chair. J. Sturdy: Is there new leadership at the MIO? Who is in Minister, I think you’ve heard my concerns. I would like charge of the MIO? to see this not be a policy of your ministry. I would also like to see someone — who can do something to help these Hon. M. Mungall: Tis is a shared resource. Te Major people — in the ministry, in a very quick way, get a hold of Investments and Corporate Initiatives Ofce is a shared my ofce again so that we can set up something with the resource across multiple ministries. It does, ultimately, client [audio interrupted]. have an ADM responsible for that, and it’s my ADM for technology, connectivity and distributed growth. We all Te Chair: Member, I’m sorry. Your last four or fve end up shortening peoples’ titles in our minds. So I wanted words got muted out again. Could you just repeat the end to make sure I got the correct one on the record. of the question that you have for the minister? [3:50 p.m.] We also have a new ADM, as I noted last week. We do D. Barnett: Sorry about that. Will the minister have her have an associate deputy minister who is responsible for staf contact my ofce and have this issue addressed so that also looking at competitiveness opportunities across min- we can have the conference call and deal with the issues istries. that are before my constituents as quickly as possible? J. Sturdy: I see another piece of the mandate was to sup- Hon. M. Mungall: I already ofered to do that. So I port the future of a made-in-B.C. tech sector through a guess the answer to the member’s question is yes. variety of diferent strategies. I think we certainly all sup- port that. One of them, though, was the anchoring of B.C.- D. Barnett: Tank you. I will turn the foor back over to developed intellectual property. my colleague from West Vancouver–Sea to Sky. I wonder how the minister would intend to accomplish that goal. What strategies would she put in place? J. Sturdy: Tank you. I would like to follow up with the minister on some spe- Hon. M. Mungall: We’re working with Innovate B.C. cifcs around her mandate letter at this point. Te frst item to anchor IP in British Columbia. We want to make sure on the mandate letter is: “Provide cabinet leadership for that tech businesses are not just starting here and scaling cross-government initiatives that support competitiveness here but that they’re able to stay here and not end up being across all sectors of B.C.’s economy.” acquired by a larger entity that then pulls that IP out of the I wonder if the minister could describe to us how she country. 244 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 23, 2020

J. Sturdy: I certainly understand what anchoring respect peoples’ privacy in this government. When we got means. I am wondering how the minister intends to the fnal report, we released it. accomplish that. Te Chair: Tat seems like a great place to fnish for Hon. M. Mungall: My answer was exactly that. We’re the moment. For the purpose of switching Chairs and the working with Innovate B.C. to develop those types of pro- cleaning protocols that are necessary, I’m going to recess grams so that businesses will be able to stay here. Tey the committee for ten minutes. We’ll see you back at ten have the capital. Tey have the fnancial ability to stay here minutes afer four. Tis committee stands recessed. as they scale up. One of the strategies, of course…. We’re also going to be Te committee recessed from 3:59 p.m. to 4:12 p.m. working with the innovation commissioner on this. We’ve recently brought on a new innovation commissioner, Dr. [R. Leonard in the chair.] Gerri Sinclair, so that she can specifcally work on this. Tat’s in her terms of reference. C. Oakes: First, I want to thank the minister for her One of the ways we want to achieve that is by creating time today and for this opportunity. I know it’s a long day. greater ties between B.C.’s growing tech sector and B.C.’s So I appreciate the time that you’re providing us to ask foundational economic sectors as well, creating those ties questions on behalf of British Columbians. and allowing for that innovation from B.C. companies into Second, I want to really acknowledge all of your our foundational economic sectors. Allowing for that type incredible staf. I’ve had the privilege to work closely of innovation to take place will create a market for our tech with some of them. I know the dedication that they are sector. Tat’s one of the ways that you get IP to stay here. doing on behalf of British Columbians. So I would like [3:55 p.m.] to thank them. My frst question…. I always start estimates of with this J. Sturdy: I’m glad the minister mentioned the innova- very important question. Earlier today we heard from the tion commissioner. minister that there is a reduction in the minister’s budget. Te Emerging Economy Task Force…. Tis was a report Te minister described it as administrative in nature. Has that was commissioned in 2018 and due in the spring of there been any decrease in FTEs for the ministry? If so, 2019. I think the quote is: “Te fnal report is due in the where do the FTEs stand? spring of 2019 and will be made public shortly thereafer.” As the minister is well aware, that report wasn’t made Hon. M. Mungall: No, there’s no decrease in FTEs. It is public until a year afer that. Can the minister explain why purely administrative in terms of reducing the chairs and it took almost two years to produce that report? the desks and all those things. Before I pass it back to the member…. I’m sure that Hon. M. Mungall: Te length of time to do the work the member and I could go for a nice iced tea on a patio refected some personal extenuating circumstances. Obvi- and talk about how amazing the staf are that she got to ously, out of respect for their privacy, we won’t be going work with and that I do now. She hasn’t been able to see into detail around that. But as soon as the work was able them up close in this COVID-19 period, but I have. It to be completed, we reviewed the report, we reviewed the has been a real inspiration to see how dedicated they are recommendations, and we released it. to British Columbians, especially the small business sec- tor, which has been hit so hard by the economic impacts J. Sturdy: What date was the report submitted to gov- of COVID-19. ernment? [4:15 p.m.] Tey have been working fat out, making sure that we’re Hon. M. Mungall: We received the fnal report, with all able to deliver programs and hear feedback and hear what’s of the i’s dotted and all of the t’s crossed, on May 11, and going on and stay close to the ground in terms of what’s we put it out to the public. happening for small businesses so that we can respond as a government. I know that she would love to hear how great J. Sturdy: Okay. Tank you to the minister. For clarity, they’re doing and probably misses them. instead of taking a year, it took close to two years to submit that report. Is that what I’m understanding? C. Oakes: Yes, I do miss them. Hello. Hi, everyone. Hon. M. Mungall: Chair, I’m getting a lot of repetitive I particularly want to send a special shout-out to the questions coming from the opposition. I just want to be small business secretariat and all of the folks who have clear that I’ve already stated the answer to this. worked diligently on the small business fle but, as well, Te report took longer than anticipated for personal the regulatory fle. I know how committed the team is on extenuating reasons. I’m not going to get into that. We Thursday, July 23, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 245 the regulatory count and how seriously they take that. So Earlier today, when my colleague talked about compet- again, I want to acknowledge and thank. itiveness and how we are measuring what that index looks I will say, on behalf of many people in the province like for competitiveness in British Columbia, the minister of British Columbia, that when there was a name change did go through the list of how…. Part of those metrics is through this ministry, we were hoping that small business around productivity, taxation and permitting. would, once again, be acknowledged as a priority in the [4:20 p.m.] title and be recognized in this ministry. I’ll continue to I went back and I reviewed some of my local fles. I advocate on behalf of this sector and for small business to think a good place for me to start, especially as an MLA be acknowledged. for Cariboo North, one of the most forest-dependent com- Minister, I’m afraid…. At 11:49 this morning, the min- munities in North America…. Having the opportunity, ister…. I missed a little piece. Te minister said that she over the last two years, to visit so many communities that could provide a ministry-by-ministry regulatory count. I have been impacted by the competitiveness challenges that apologize. I missed where that information is going to be we’ve seen with the forest sector frsthand and how that provided, if it’s something that is public or if it’s something impacts not just workers, not just small business and self- that the minister will be sending to us. employed contractors but families in so many of our com- munities. Hon. M. Mungall: It is on open data, but rather than I know that the minister understands that, as a rural trying to ply through many, many websites, we’ll email it MLA. So when the minister acknowledged that there to you directly. hasn’t been a shif in priorities, but we’ve seen competit- iveness, especially in sectors such as our forest economy, C. Oakes: I thank the minister for that. I reviewed the decline, how does the minister reconcile this? regulatory red tape and service agreement, and I couldn’t fnd it in there. So thank you for making it much easier for Hon. M. Mungall: Earlier I answered these questions. us. I’ve pointed out, and I’ve done this on numerous occa- Tat is important work that is being done, and we want sions for the opposition, that we’re in a global pandemic. to make sure that continues to happen — that the regulat- Tis global pandemic started in Asia much earlier in the ory count continues to be reviewed. It’s critically import- year and has whipped around the world and is still very ant for the competitiveness for businesses and for people active. Tat pandemic has caused economic activity glob- in British Columbia. ally to decline, and B.C. is not immune to that. Te items I also want to thank former deputy minister Fazil Mih- that the member is speaking of in terms of downward lar for the incredible work and leadership that he has done investment and downward exports, as an example, are a in multiple ministries. I was certainly pleased when he was result of the COVID-19 pandemic. the deputy for this particular ministry. I’m not too sure if she’s trying to characterize it as some- Earlier today we certainly heard that, perhaps, there’s a thing else. It sounds like she’s trying to characterize it as shif in the prioritization of this ministry or this govern- a priority change of this government. I would argue that ment. We’ve seen a little bit of regulatory red tape creep putting the word “competitiveness” into a ministerial title up in this ministry. We’ve seen competitiveness. We talked shows exactly how dedicated this government is in terms about that earlier today, and there are certainly some con- of making sure that B.C. is globally competitive. We are cerns about that. Exports are down. Tere are some con- now having to deal with the constantly shifing impacts of cerns on the jobs plan. COVID-19. Tat being the reality, we continue to identify I guess, on behalf of British Columbians across this ways in which we can innovate and grow B.C.’s economy province…. Is there a reprioritization of government away and make sure that we are globally competitive. from job creation and competitiveness? We’re starting to see, and this is even before COVID-19, a real lack of…. C. Oakes: What I was exploring with the minister is that We’re going from the most competent jurisdiction for prior to COVID-19, the changes that we have certainly small business in Canada to seeing a signifcant decline seen…. I mentioned that for the past two years I have been in that. Ten, of course, we’ve seen some of our…. Te travelling to communities across British Columbia, forest- minister mentioned it earlier today — that we are seeing dependent communities that have experienced signifcant industry and capital feeing from British Columbia. impacts to the forest sector as a clear result of a couple of Has there been a signifcant reprioritization of govern- things. ment away from competitiveness and job creation in Brit- First, there have been challenges with competitiveness. ish Columbia? Actually, let me read out…. Te minister mentioned earli- er the Council of Forest Industries. So I just went, afer the Hon. M. Mungall: No. minister had acknowledged the Council of Forest Indus- tries…. I wanted to explore to see what their most recent C. Oakes: Tat’s good to know. 246 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 23, 2020 press release was in response to some of the comments that signifcant changes both through legislation and the minister mentioned on the forestry side. through regulation to increase the costs to the sector in Specifcally, what the Council of Forest Industries British Columbia. talked about was that the high operation costs due to Te minister also acknowledged earlier that…. Well, I’m high stumpage rates and red tape was causing signifcant going to have to unequivocally disagree, where I think it’s challenges for the competitiveness of the forest sector a good thing when we see forest companies invest in other economy. Both stumpage rates and regulatory count are jurisdictions. I unequivocally think that that is a signifc- a responsibility of this government and tie in with the ant concern of all British Columbians when we see invest- ministry. Te ministry acknowledged that that is, in fact, ment leave our province. I think there is nothing to celeb- a metric that is measured in competitiveness, but we’ve rate about that, and I highly disagree with the minister’s heard frsthand from industry that this is causing a chal- comments earlier on that. I could provide you the exact…. lenge. I believe it was at 10:32 this morning that the minister was Te minister earlier laid out the matrix of how compet- talking about that. itiveness is measured by government. I reviewed what we Where I will agree with the minister — and I think are hearing from stakeholder groups around what they are this is important in estimates debate — is to talk about experiencing with the challenges of competitiveness. Tis the importance of the value-added sector. I understand. existed prior to COVID-19. Tis isn’t something that has We’ve had several pellet plants in our community. We’ve just happened. It has been under this government’s watch, seen some close. We’ve seen, unfortunately, a very signifc- where there has been a reduction in competitiveness by ant value-added industry in my community just, unfortu- the policies and decisions that this government has made. nately, going through some signifcantly challenging times. Again, to the minister: I’m wondering how you recon- We are all working diligently to try and support them. cile the fact that there hasn’t been a change in priority I guess, and this is completely diferent…. How does the around competitiveness when we’ve seen it frsthand in the minister see growing a value-added sector without hav- forest sector? ing a primary forest industry to provide the fbre to the [4:25 p.m.] value-added sector? For example, the minister talked at length about the pellet sector this morning as an under- Hon. M. Mungall: We’ve canvassed this issue extens- standing of what is happening with the forest sector and ively this morning. We talked about…. I provided the where she sees signifcant opportunities, specifcally dis- opposition with answers regarding how the forestry sector cussing Japan. I’m wondering how she sees a value-added has come about in its current situation and how we are sector such as pellets growing if we do not have a primary looking to rebuild the competitiveness for the forestry sec- industry to provide those chips. tor, focusing on value-added and opportunities with [4:30 p.m.] innovation in the forestry sector. We’ve canvassed this extensively. Hon. M. Mungall: From my perspective, when B.C. What I hear from the member is questions on how we companies are growing, that’s a good thing. When reconcile some of the challenges that the forestry sector is they’re able to be operating on the global marketplace, experiencing right now. Te reality is that a lot of the prob- that’s a good thing. Again, that’s not to the point of her lems that they are facing are a result of negligence from the question or to the point of what she’s trying to raise, I previous government. Tat’s my particular view. I know believe. I think that she’s trying to get details around the the member is going to disagree with that, and we can have primary forestry industry. that debate back and forth. But I feel like we already have Now, we’ve canvassed the issues around the regulatory done that this morning. count and our government’s commitment to maintaining a baseline of no net gains since 2004. We’ve canvassed C. Oakes: We heard earlier that the regulatory count has our government’s view around the competitiveness of the gone up in British Columbia, specifcally around UNDRIP forestry industry and how we’re going to build that com- and the increased regulatory count in that. Tat obviously petitiveness. Te member might disagree with that. Tat’s has an impact on competitiveness and other regulatory okay. We’re all here to express our opinions about that. increases that we’ve seen by this government. In terms of details around the competitiveness and how We’ve spent the last week in question period discussing, we are managing our forests, I would have to direct the very closely, the legislation around the WorkSafe amend- member to the Ministry of Forests, Lands, Natural ments, around Bill 23, the signifcant concerns of business Resource Operations and Rural Development. across British Columbia and the cost increases that will result in that. C. Oakes: Tank you, Minister. I do intend to raise Again, the minister is increasing the regulatory bur- some of these questions with Forests, Lands and Natural den on businesses, specifcally the forest sector. Not the Resources. It’s such a critically important sector for so minister — I apologize. Government has certainly made many of our communities, especially…. Well, I shouldn’t Thursday, July 23, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 247 say…. It impacts every part of British Columbia and all of ping green wood to see a growth in the value-added sector the people in British Columbia. So it’s equally as import- in British Columbia? ant. I just want to canvass one more piece, though, to that. Hon. M. Mungall: How our forests are managed and I guess a little bit of clarity. We want our businesses, of how trees are harvested in our province is just not a regu- course, to grow. I think it’s a good sign when you see capit- latory system managed by this ministry. I’m just not able to al investment in British Columbia. What is not so…. It’s a provide the member with answers to those types of ques- signifcant failure on the part of government if you see sig- tions. I’m going to have to, once again, direct her to the nifcant investment and companies that have been in exist- Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resources Opera- ence in our province for decades pick up their capital and tions. I apologize for that, but we’re just not responsible for move to other jurisdictions, thereby closing their mills. those regulations here. [4:35 p.m.] What we are responsible for is in terms of the FII and In 2019, what we’ve seen…. Well, we’ve seen signifcant marketing our forestry products to the world, which we mill closures, and we’ve seen signifcant curtailments. Six are doing. I’m happy to answer questions around what the sawmills permanently closed in 2019 and several more activities are from the FII, the Forestry Innovation Invest- extended curtailments. Pulp mills and other secondary ment. If there are questions about how we’re marketing industries have certainly been impacted. What we’ve seen our products globally, I’m happy to answer those ques- is that investment has, unfortunately, moved to other juris- tions. But in terms of how we manage our forests, again, dictions because the other jurisdictions are far more com- those details are just not with this ministry. petitive. When you go from being a province where you are the C. Oakes: It was the minister that brought it up — the jurisdiction that is one of the lowest-cost operational pro- value-added sector — and talked about the eforts that ducers to now becoming the highest-cost producer, you’re they were doing on the pellet sector. She also earlier dis- going to see a response where you’re going to see just cussed the importance of ESG and the social licence. I just that capital and those companies move their investment to don’t think that there is a social licence out there, at least other jurisdictions outside of British Columbia, and that’s not in my region, for this government to be going afer deeply troubling. Tat’s going to have deep, deep impacts green stands and chipping them for the pellet sector. on every aspect of our economy. [4:40 p.m.] Again, I guess the reason why I was exploring how the Unless the minister can demonstrate how they will have minister sees an expansion of the value-added sector…. a plan to improve competitiveness for a primary industry, Specifcally, the minister mentioned the pellet sector. How such as forestry…. I think that’s incredibly troubling of this does the minister see an increase in value-added such as minister and this government and goes to my earlier com- a pellet sector if you don’t have a primary forest sector ments of a signifcant shif we’ve seen in this government’s because they’ve moved to other jurisdictions because of priorities. the red tape and the operating costs and regulation that the While it’s all good to say that there isn’t a reprioritization province has put in place? or a change, when we see it every single day on the ground in our communities…. We’re facing those impacts of the Hon. M. Mungall: Chair, I feel like I have canvassed a regulatory increases. We’re seeing the increasing costs to lot of the issues that the member has brought up several small businesses, and we’re seeing the increases and capital times last week and today. I feel like that question was the fow out of British Columbia. It goes back to the earlier same question before, where I had to direct her to the Min- question that I had about concerns of the change in pri- istry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations. I oritization in how this government is looking at compet- didn’t quite hear anything new there. So I’m going to have itiveness and how it intends to attract investment into the to direct her back there again. province of British Columbia. I will move on, because I think that I probably won’t get Te Chair: Cariboo North, a new question? greater clarity from the minister. At 10:40 a.m. this morning, in a question of compet- C. Oakes: I am seeking clarity. Te minister earlier itiveness, the minister mentioned that the government is talked about the value-added sector — about how it is an playing catch-up because the previous government did not important part of the competitiveness in British Colum- have a plan. In relation to the conversation of jobs, eco- bia. With all due respect, the minister has not acknow- nomic development and competitiveness, just to remind ledged how the value-added sector, specifcally the pellet perhaps the minister that…. sector, is expected to grow if there isn’t a primary industry We talked earlier about the incredible work and eforts to provide the chips. of our public servants in the ministry, and I really want to Maybe I will try it this way. Is the minister supporting a thank them. We were so proud that we were leaders. We competitive direction that suggests that we should be chip- had a signifcant jobs plan, and we were seeing numbers 248 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 23, 2020 that were extraordinary and something to be very proud We need to be inclusive. We have been inclusive. We of. We were leading the country around regulatory reform also haven’t been sitting back. Every day another press and moving drastically to make life better for British Col- release goes out about some of the programs that we are umbia through those eforts. We were seeing exports on launching immediately through our restart plan, which is the rise. We were seeing exports up. where we still are. We’re in phase 3 of the restart plan. Again, I’ll disagree with the minister that we didn’t have We’ve been announcing programs to help people, as we go a plan. We had a signifcant plan. In fact, that plan lef this along, as well. government with a signifcant surplus that I know that the We cannot forget — it’s very important to remember government…. Tank goodness we have that surplus for — that reducing the spread of COVID-19 is completely the situation we’re in today. Te minister was very critic- linked to our ability to recover economically and to ensure al and said that they’re working of not having a plan and that we reduce the economic impacts of COVID-19 as are playing catch-up. A $2.7 billion surplus that the former well. Our work to reduce the spread of COVID-19, from government lef this government I think suggested that we the very beginning, is also part of ensuring that we have a lef a pretty solid plan. strong economic foundation from which to recover. I guess the minister is part of the economic recovery plan that was formed on April 2 and has supposedly been C. Oakes: I guess I was a little surprised, then, today meeting weekly and biweekly with stakeholder groups. — for every single British Columbian, for every single Could the minister share with us today — and especially small business that has been deeply impacted by COV- all the small businesses that have been deeply impacted ID-19 — to hear the Premier talk about an opportunity across the province and all of the people that are deeply for an election this fall. impacted and waiting desperately to see what the econom- First, I will suggest…. I have concerns about the serious- ic recovery plan is — provide us today with what this gov- ness…. I certainly do not have concerns around Dr. Bon- ernment’s economic recovery plan is? nie Henry and Minister Dix. But when the Premier goes out and, for many people, dismisses the serious impacts Hon. M. Mungall: At this time, I’dlike to take an oppor- that they have felt, the small businesses and the impacts tunity to thank the incredible members of our Small Busi- that they have had…. To hear the Premier basically dis- ness Roundtable. While they don’t directly sit on the Eco- miss it by saying, “Oh yeah. Tere’s an opportunity that nomic Recovery Task Force, I’ve been meeting with them, we could explore for having an election come the fall,” I initially biweekly and now monthly, so that we can get fnd dismissive to all of those folks out there, across the feedback to the government in terms of how our programs province, the people who are really struggling. are helping people, what we need to change, what we can Te minister has been working since April on an eco- advocate to the federal government on, what’s working for nomic recovery plan. At almost every event that the min- them and what’s not and what some of the ideas are that ister has talked at or town halls or across the government, they have. quite frankly…. Te government has talked about this $1.5 I’ve been taking those back to the Economic Recovery billion that’s being put aside for an economic recovery Task Force, whether at those meetings or directly to the plan. Every other province in Canada has come out with Premier and Minister James, and it’s just been incred- what their economic plan is and, specifcally, how they are ible working with this group of people. British Columbi- going to support their workers and the small businesses ans are very well served by the people who are giving of that employ the workers in British Columbia. themselves and their time to be on this Small Business I reminded the minister — and she acknowledged it Roundtable. — that 98 percent of business in British Columbia comes Te member asked for me to launch our economic from the small business sector. Further, 1.1 million work- recovery plan right here during estimates. I think she ers rely on small businesses for their jobs — to support knows the answer to that question, which is: this is not their families, to ensure that they have a roof over their how we provide that type of information to British Col- heads and to ensure that they have food security. umbians. Rather, she also knows that we are in the process I think it’s a relevant question to ask the minister. You’ve of developing that plan through consultation with British been consulting. You’ve been talking. I know the Small Columbians. We did a direct consultation where people Business Roundtable, and I know they’ve been providing were able to share their ideas online and submit them by strong recommendations to the Economic Recovery Task July 21, which was just two days ago. Force and to the minister. [4:45 p.m.] Of the $1.5 billion that the government keeps talking We’ve been doing sectoral round tables. We’ve also been about, which is there for economic recovery, specifcally speaking with some of the people most hit. I had, with the when they go and talk to the small business stakeholder Premier, two round tables with young people, who, by and groups…? How much of that $1.5 billion will be available large, have seen their unemployment numbers rise to 29 for the small business sector? percent right now as a result of the pandemic. Thursday, July 23, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 249

Hon. M. Mungall: Our plan for the $1.5 billion is not If I sat here and listed of all the people I know in fnalized. So I cannot give the member a number. this sector as small business owners or employees of small businesses, I would take us right to the end of the day, at C. Oakes: What does the minister say to the tourism the very least, which is where I anticipate we’re headed. But sector? We’re going to shif now, sector by sector. I know I won’t use up the member’s time in that way. Sufce it to that, certainly, the minister has met, and these reports have say that it has been very challenging for the tourism sector. all been sent to the government. Te member is asking me a question that is similar to [4:50 p.m.] the previous question, which is how much of the $1.5 bil- Te question is…. COVID-19 has certainly hit the tour- lion our government has set aside for economic recovery, ism sector harder than any other economic sector in Brit- on top of making sure that we have a strong economic ish Columbia. Virtually the entire sector has endured clos- foundation from which to recover. We’ve been putting…. ures and extensive employee layofs. Many businesses are Well, the numbers are in, and it’s over $5 billion. It’s actu- already foreclosed due to the lack of cash fow, an issue that ally $6.26 billion that we’ve put forward in terms of our we have continued to bring forward to this government, initial response to COVID-19, which is also a response to and mostly have only partially reopened. reducing the negative economic impacts of the pandemic. To put it into perspective, in 2018, the tourism industry In terms of how much from that $1.5 billion is going to involved about 19,300 businesses and generated $8.3 bil- be spent on small business or on tourism or on mining or lion in provincial GDP from $20.5 billion in direct visitor on any other sector, I’ll just let the member know that I’m spending and created direct employment for more than not able to answer those questions. Tere are no numbers 300,000 people in every community in the province of for those details right now, because we have not released British Columbia. Recent modelling estimates suggest a 65 our plan. It’s still in the works. And only two days afer the to 70 percent decline in tourism revenues in British Col- public consultation fnalized, I think it would be inappro- umbia. Tey are not expected to exceed $6.5 billion in priate to all of a sudden turn around with a plan. It would 2020, and that’s the best-case scenario. basically suggest that we never had the intention to listen On the worker front, today accommodation and food to people, and we have all the intention to listen to people. services have sufered a 49 percent decline in employment. Te culture and recreation industries experienced a 35.3 C. Oakes: Tank you to the minister for recognizing the percent decline in employment. Without urgent and sub- importance of tourism in our rural communities. stantial help to sustain the tourism employees and the Where I’m hearing, obviously…. Te signifcant chal- families that they support, we’re going to see devastating lenge, especially from young people, is in our urban set- impacts. tings. We all have friends and family that live in the city. I Te minister has repeatedly talked about the need to think of folks that live in Metro Vancouver and Surrey and support people in British Columbia, the need to support folks that live in Victoria and on the Island. Tey’re abso- workers in British Columbia, the need to support young lutely devastated. Tey count on the tourism sector. Tey people. I will remind the minister that a signifcant portion count on these jobs to support them. Tey’re terrifed, and of the workers that are impacted in the tourism sector are they’re incredibly concerned about what the future looks young people. like. Tey can’t go on relying on programs. Tey know that Te association has brought forward a very clear request these programs that the government has put in place are to ensure that there is a jobs plan so that this ministry not going to be around forever. actually continues on with a jobs plan and that we see a Youth unemployment in British Columbia is up 266 way to support workers in British Columbia. Te minis- percent since January but is only up 114 in the rest of ter likes to say she supports workers. How much of the Canada. Tat’s an alarming statistic. Tat means B.C. has $1.5 million…? What will the government do to provide done more than twice as badly as the rest of Canada when the emergency working capital program — to support and it comes to supporting young people. maintain over 120,000 jobs with the front-line tourism Adult female unemployment in British Columbia was business? up 152 percent in January. In the rest of Canada, it’s 115 percent. So that means adult female unemployment has Hon. M. Mungall: I know the member comes from a worsened 37 percent in British Columbia since January, rural part of British Columbia, and I come from a rural compared to the rest of Canada. Te rest of Canada has part of British Columbia. Like her, in my communities come forward and has a plan. Tey have a jobs plan. Tey that I represent, tourism is extremely important. It’s a very have an economic recovery plan. Tey’ve communicated important aspect of our economy. It’s an area where a lot of that out to the public. We’re still waiting for ours. We’ve people get their frst jobs and start building a career. A lot been waiting since April, when the economic recovery of small businesses are in the tourism sector, particularly team was implemented by the government. in rural British Columbia. Te minister has had so many meetings and has clearly [4:55 p.m.] listened to people but hasn’t implemented anything. We’re 250 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 23, 2020 an extraordinarily diferent scenario than the rest of would not be the envy of North America right now for our Canada, because we don’t have a plan. success rate in terms of reducing the spread of COVID-19. To the minister: when you see how our young people So British Columbians should be very proud of what we’ve and our women are being so signifcantly impacted at a all been able to accomplish by working together. much higher rate than the rest of Canada, what is your From that point in time where we had to shut down, jobs plan? we’ve also had to restart. We’ve had a very careful, slow [5:00 p.m.] but sure restart plan that is integral to opening up our eco- nomy. We’re seeing in the labour force survey that a lot of Hon. M. Mungall: In some of the comments that the the labour activity that’s taking place is exactly what we’re member was sharing, I thought I heard her say that our seeing in our communities, with our restaurants opening government hasn’t done anything for British Columbi- up, patios opening up. Retail is starting to open back up, ans during this pandemic. So I just wanted to correct the and so on. We’re starting to see economic activity restart, record with a few items because the list is actually very and this is all very good news. long. I want to appreciate the member’s time so that she We know that going forward, economic recovery from has time to share her views and perhaps ask some ques- pandemics in the past has taken about three to fve years tions. to be fully realized, so we need to have a plan for that. Our I’ll just share a few items. We did a tax deferral to plan is not going to be rushed. It’s going to be done right. September 30 for the employer health tax, the PST, the It’s going to be thoughtful. Tat’s exactly why we’re work- carbon tax as well as other taxes. We delayed increases to ing on it right now. the carbon tax and new PST tax applications. We did $700 If the member would like to compare us with other jur- million for a reduced school property tax rate, and that’s isdictions, such as Alberta, I feel very confdent that what a permanent reduction. Tat’s a 25 percent reduction for we’ve done in B.C. has been very forward-thinking, very businesses, $700 million in costs to B.C. cofers. appropriate, very mindful, very thoughtful. A lot of other And $80 million for Canadian emergency commercial provinces, including Alberta, are actually looking to us for rent assistance; a commercial eviction ban until the end of advice. I’ve been having calls from other jurisdictions for July for those whose landlords don’t use the rental assist- advice, actually, in terms of how we maintain a strong eco- ance program that the federal government put forward; nomy through all of this. restaurant delivery of alcohol with food; wholesale liquor I’d also like to point out that prior to COVID-19, our pricing model introduced for the hospitality sector; government had done some work in terms of developing $550,000 for Buy B.C. e-commerce program; temporary analysis on how to grow our economy. I know that we’re layof period extended to 24 weeks; WorkSafeBC’s sector not allowed to have props, Chair. I won’t share it over the specifc information and resources to help businesses screen, but I will just make sure that the member is aware reopen safely; $10 million in grants to tourism destination of the title: A Framework for Improving British Columbians’ marketing organizations; and $600,000 to the B.C. Tour- Standard of Living. Tat document is publicly available. I ism Resiliency Network to support 19,000 tourism-related know that the opposition has it. businesses. Te list goes on. If she’s wondering what kind of plan we have, we have Tere are child care supports. Tere are the rental sup- already started to initiate plans with this, with the Emer- plements, and so on. I can send all of that information to ging Economy Task Force, and with the innovation com- the member so she has that. missioner report as well. We have a variety of research [5:05 p.m.] and documents that are paving the way for the province Ten, in terms of where our economic recovery plan of British Columbia. It might not all be housed in a is, I feel like I’ve answered that. Keep in mind that we short document, but rather, these are very detailed doc- have been thinking about economic recovery from day uments. I’m happy to get them to the member if she one. As I said, it goes hand in hand with our response, doesn’t have them. the health and safety response, to COVID-19. If you don’t have health, you don’t have safety. You’re not going to have C. Oakes: What I have to ofer to the minister, I guess, a strong economy. So we have to make sure that British are some heartfelt…. I deeply hope that the government is Columbians are safe and they are reducing the spread of successful with your plan, because we need your econom- COVID-19. ic recovery plan to be successful for all of the people that I really want to take this opportunity to thank busi- depend on us in our communities across British Colum- nesses for taking this so seriously. I have been able to do bia. I want to acknowledge the work that’s been done on that several times but never on the record with Hansard.I the public health side and the work that has been ongoing want to take that opportunity to thank businesses, because and that I know will continue. if they had not taken the words of Dr. Henry to heart I need the minister to understand the signifcant con- and had done what was necessary with their own bottom sequences that we could be facing if we don’t have a very line to reduce the spread of COVID-19, British Columbia Thursday, July 23, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 251 clear economic recovery plan and, specifcally, if we don’t Without a clear economic recovery plan come Septem- have support for the job creators in our province. ber, when a signifcant portion of these programs become [5:10 p.m.] due, what are these small businesses, who have already I listed of the very real and signifcant unemployment incurred so much debt…? How do they go back and look numbers in the tourism sector and specifcally how this is at…? Now that all the programs are done, how do they going to impact our young people and women. I look at take on more risk, more operating costs and more uncer- the challenges that they already have, and I am seriously tainty because of some of the legislation that’s been concerned. Perhaps maybe because I’m increasingly sens- brought forward by this government and increased regu- itive, having experienced the last two years of a forestry lation by this government…. How do they take those risks crisis and having had the constituents come into my and incur more debt to stay open? ofce…. [5:15 p.m.] Minister, things can go very bad for people in a really short amount of time. I think the government needs to be Hon. M. Mungall: Perhaps the member would like to cognizant of that. rephrase the question. Te way she’s phrased it at this point One of my constituents — we had a mill closure — had is just not a question that lands within this ministry. Te a signifcant downward spiral where they’ve had to live in question she’s asking is actually one that small business a camper. Tey had to live in a camper over the winter. owners would have to answer themselves. I’m just wonder- Another constituent is an electrician and didn’t qualify for ing if she can maybe rephrase to get the type of informa- a pension bridging program. His wife was diagnosed with tion she’s looking for. breast cancer and had to travel for surgery and treatments. Ten they became where they didn’t have food security. C. Oakes: I’d be happy to rephrase. It’s not statistics that we’re talking about here. We are What modelling has the Ministry of Jobs, Economic talking about people in British Columbia and the sig- Development and Competitiveness completed to review nifcant impacts if we do not get the economic restart an analysis of the small business sector in British Colum- to start working for people in British Columbia now. bia that…. Following the end of economic recovery plans, We are doing worse on the economic side than other what do they estimate we are going to see in bankruptcies? jurisdictions across the country. We’ve heard that our What is the estimation that we are going to see in workers unemployment numbers are certainly more challenged that, unfortunately, will no longer have a job? than other areas across Canada, and that strictly ties into what that plan looks like. Hon. M. Mungall: I appreciate the member rephrasing I would say to the minister…. I really appreciate the the question. I took it to understand: what kind of model- fact that she read out the initiatives that this government ling do we have to understand potential impacts of bank- is doing. I think what is equally important…. It’s great ruptcies or the number of bankruptcies small businesses to have rhetoric, and it’s great to have strong words and might incur and then the overall impact that might have to be optimistic and to put out strong messages, but we on the labour market? need to have deliverables. We need to see that. When we Te Ministry of Finance does that data. Tey collect have signifcantly high unemployment rates, that should data and do modelling on insolvency and employment be very alarming to the minister. We should be seeing forecasts. Te Minister of Finance did provide the most some adjustments to some of the programs that the gov- up-to-date fgures in her recent presentation and econom- ernment has put forward to ensure that it’s reaping the ic update, Economic and Fiscal Scenario: Update ’20-21, on beneft for all people in British Columbia. July 14. I would refer the member back to that document. I appreciate the work that you’re doing. Look, I know If she has more detailed questions, they would best be dir- that this is unparalleled times, and it’s difcult. But, again, ected to the Ministry of Finance. going back to what I said earlier, we have to get it right. What I can tell her is that every jurisdiction is having According to the Canadian Federation of Independent trouble really pinning down these types of forecasts and Business, 70 percent of small businesses in British Colum- these types of details because things have been shifing so bia have had to take on debt. Tis is higher than the Cana- frequently, so much and so unpredictably as a result of dian average of about 67 percent. Small businesses, at this COVID-19. So getting those numbers and them being sol- point, afer only a very short amount of time in this pan- id is not as easy to do as it perhaps has been in the past. demic, expect that it will take more than a year to pay of. Te average small business has incurred $129,194 of total C. Oakes: Tank you to the minister. I certainly estimated debt, and that sits at about $16.9 billion in Brit- understand the challenges. I will have questions on the ish Columbia. To fnance the COVID-19 revenue short- small business side that I’ll be raising with the Minister falls and extra costs, B.C. businesses are relying on per- of Finance. sonal savings, credit cards, bank loans, retirement savings, Some of the programming, certainly…. Understanding mortgages, loans and families and friends. the programs, as the minister had identifed earlier, does 252 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 23, 2020 help us understand from a jobs, economic development age, then multiply it by 1.2. A 30 percent decline would and competitiveness nature specifcally how those sup- yield a 36 percent subsidy, and then the numbers worsen. ports will be rolled out to the minister. At the end of September, the multiplier is reduced to only Communication is always something that’s critically 1.0. A month later it goes to 0.8 and then to 0.4 the month important for British Columbians. We heard in the gov- afer that to conclude the CEWS program. ernment’s own Small Business Task Force that clear, con- I only list that because it’s highly complicated. I do not cise information from government is critically important. necessarily feel that the impact will support the comments I guess I do have a question on one of the programs that the minister has made in the past about that — that that the minister did identify earlier as one of the pro- the government is looking at supporting small businesses grams. Tere have been some changes to the CEWS. It in economic recovery. Again, the minister mentioned seems rather complicated. some of the other programs such as the tax deferrals and [5:20 p.m.] other programs, which are coming to a close in September. Could the minister just help both me, as the critic, and [5:25 p.m.] the many people that I’m sure are watching these estimates Could the minister, again, help me understand what understand exactly how that program is going to work? the government is actually providing for support for small businesses that have been impacted by COVID-19 Hon. M. Mungall: I think I need a clarifcation. When and how the government will support these small busi- I hear CEWS — we all live in acronym soup here — I’m nesses to stay open so that they can create jobs for Brit- thinking of the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Is that ish Columbians? what the member is talking about, or is she talking about a diferent program that, perhaps, we have given another Hon. M. Mungall: Te program that the member was name to? talking about, the Canada emergency wage subsidy, is a If it’s what I just asked about, that’s a federal program. So federal program. So I can’t comment or provide any fur- I’m not able to give those details in the estimates debate. If ther details on that. it’s about the $1,000 a month that the province of B.C. was I have heard feedback, obviously, from the Small Busi- doing, that was delivered by the Ministry of Finance. ness Roundtable on whether it works or whether there are If she wants to just clarify, I’ll try my best to get the some issues with it and so on. I always pass that feed- answer. back on to my federal counterpart in the federal govern- ment, and they are so grateful to receive that feedback and C. Oakes: Te minister earlier acknowledged the Small to hear what’s going on, on the ground, for people — the Business Task Force, and one of the recommendations was ministers themselves. Tat’s why we have regular phone around government communications and how govern- calls at their insistence. ment can be communicating out to people and ensuring Te member…. What I also heard, from her comments, that people understand the programs that small businesses was a real need for clarity, and that came from the Small have available to them. Business Task Force. Of course, everybody wants to have I am certain that the minister has heard clearly from greater clarity from government. And fair enough. I agree. the round table and from other agencies about the com- So what we did with COVID-19 is…. We knew that people plication of the Canada emergency wage subsidy program, needed support. which is critically important, I might add, to ensuring that Before I continue on with how we delivered some there is a recovery plan. I don’t imagine…. Well, actually, support in accessing services and so on, I also want to be honest, in the minister’s own…. In the press release to acknowledge the amazing work that the Canadian for the economic recovery team, it talked clearly about Federation of Independent Business, as well as the B.C. those partnerships with the federal government. Tose are chamber network, were doing. Tey were on the phone, important, and it is part of the plan. I think, around the clock in the frst month or two, Maybe I’ll read it out to the minister so she clearly answering questions from small businesses and doing understands what small businesses are being faced with. I their best to support people through this very scary know that ofen governments will come out and say: “Hey, time. And I want to thank them and all of their staf and look, we’ve got these great programs. Don’t worry about volunteers who are helping them to answer all of those it.” In fact, the minister talked earlier about the list of pro- phone calls and really stepping up to the plate to help grams and why we shouldn’t be concerned about any kind their fellow British Columbians. of economic recovery because the minister has listed all of Te service that we supported through the provincial these programs. government is Small Business B.C. I know that the mem- Just to recap what the new wage subsidy looks like, a ber is well aware of that excellent small business organiz- frm with a 30 percent decline from a year ago would drop ation. Tey just do stellar work, and they really ramped it by more than half. Te new formula the government will up when we provided them the funding to do so since the use is to take the year-over-year revenue decline percent- pandemic hit. Thursday, July 23, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 253

We developed a program with them to expand their plan to support small businesses moving forward to ensure one-on-one supports so that people could either email…. that they do not have to incur such signifcant debt, so that Tey could chat, they could phone in, and there was a they can start hiring people back and create employment human being at the other end of that line six days a week, for people in British Columbia? in multiple languages, able to support businesses with all kinds of questions about all of the various federal and pro- Hon. M. Mungall: I have listed out some of the pro- vincial, as well as some of the municipal, programs. grams that we put forward as a government that have been [5:30 p.m.] helping small business. I hear from the Small Business Just a hats-of to Tom Conway at Small Business B.C. Roundtable regularly, getting that feedback. Tey have Tey’ve been doing just a stellar job since we launched consistently…. that program on April 16. Tey have also expanded web- I’m happy to show the member my notes. We have taken site services. Tey’ve been doing webinars, walking people extensive notes at all of these. You don’t have to wait for through the process of application, how to move a business a freedom of information request. We’re happy to share online — all the types of questions that businesses had them appropriately, in terms of making sure that we retain in terms of getting, maybe, some professional support. the confdentiality that the members of the round table Tey’ve developed modules. Tey’ve put those webinars expect. online, and people have been accessing them. I have been hearing very positive feedback from the I’m going to give you some numbers though, Member business community who may not have the same partisan — I don’t want you to just take my word for it on how pop- interest that the member has in the budget estimates pro- ular these support services were — which show how much cess. I don’t begrudge her for that. I love our system, and they were needed. Te total calls that they served over the I think it’s great. But I’m going to take some of her com- frst 12 weeks of this service, 2,698; total emails, 586; total ments with a bit of a grain of salt when they’re so diferent chats, 1,174; and total page views — this is an incredible from the comments that I hear directly back from the number — 223,012. Small Business Roundtable, from my regular meetings It goes to show that businesses were very much looking with my own local business community and from my reg- for this support. We were able to deliver it, and I’m very ular meetings sitting with many stakeholders in the busi- glad that we could, because people needed a lot of clarity ness community, as well as the non-proft sector, labour in this rapidly changing time. and the creative sector around the Economic Recovery Task Force. C. Oakes: Well, I don’t disagree with the member that [5:35 p.m.] small businesses desperately need assistance. I’m not sur- Te feedback that we have been receiving, predomin- prised by the page views that the minister read out. antly, on our programs is very, very positive. Quite frankly, what small businesses are saying in the I’m also going to just point out that…. I felt like the province of British Columbia is that the supports…. While member was suggesting that there are no results, that it’s great to have a list of what the supports are, the reason we don’t have anything to show for the actions that have why you’re having the views is because the small business taken place. I’m going to just highlight that I just gave sectors themselves are not fnding the necessary supports the member some very signifcant numbers in terms of that are going to help them. people accessing the information that we have been put- Even if there is a program that’s out there, (a) many ting out there. of them don’t qualify, or (b) it’s just not a program that It’s not because the programs aren’t successful or that is going to help their business. What I would say, again, they just can’t fnd it on the government website. All that is that rhetoric and words are one thing, but results are information is there too. It’s because diferent people reach another. And when you see that we have such a signifc- out to diferent points of contact to get information for antly high unemployment rate in British Columbia, when help. Tey might contact constituency ofces, and that’s we see that our small businesses are forced to take on exactly why I sent personal emails to every single MLA greater debt than any other small business sector in with details on how they can support their constituents in Canada, that suggests the programs that the government this critical period, as we were shutting down and then has put in place aren’t working. looking to restart. How long will it take for this government to recognize Te numbers that I’ve shared from Small Business that what they are doing, they need to retool, they need to B.C…. Tey’ve been doing excellent work, and I don’t want rethink, and that they need to make sure that they’re put- to minimize the type of work that they’ve been doing and ting a plan in place before we lose more small businesses, the supports that they’ve been putting out there. I don’t before they become so clearly in debt that they have no think the member wants to either. choice but to make some incredibly difcult questions? I just wanted to make sure that we had that clearly on Te minister was very quick to criticize the previous the record — that these types of supports are very valuable government on a lack of a plan. To the minister: what is the and that people are using them. It’s part of our overall goal 254 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 23, 2020 to make sure that we’re delivering on the Small Business clear priorities and that there haven’t been any signifcant Task Force recommendations to provide greater clarity to changes. What is the minister going to do, come the fall, to small businesses. support small businesses?

C. Oakes: To the minister: thank you for that. Again, I Hon. M. Mungall: We’ve canvassed the issue of the eco- honestly hope that the minister is correct. I hope that the nomic recovery plan that our government is putting in confdence that the member has displayed about the fact place. We’ve canvassed that it’s going to be released once that the minister feels that there are adequate programs we’ve been able to provide good analysis and really take in out there and supports for small business and for workers all the ideas and feedback that we’ve received from around in the province of British Columbia…. I hope you’re right. the province. Te metric that I’m using is when I walk down my main To answer the member’s question directly, once we have street and see how many of my small businesses are closed. our plan released and we start implementing it, we’re going I mean, that’s the metric I look at. I would say for every to be able to see more programs, on top of the programs MLA on this call, I am certain that you are seeing in your that we’ve already put out, for small businesses. communities a signifcant shif and a signifcant change in the small businesses that are actually open. C. Oakes: Moving beyond the economic recovery piece, I’m also certain that through their ofces, MLAs — all more to the Small Business Task Force report. MLAs in this House — have heard signifcant concerns Earlier the member talked about some of the items about the small businesses that still have not been able to that have been moved forward through the Small Busi- restart and the fact that they are looking at this terrible fear ness Task Force but missed the fundamental comments that, come September, a majority of these programs that that were made through the Small Business Task Force. have helped support, to a small degree, some of them to What was clearly acknowledged to the government, get up and relaunched…. When those programs and those through their own Small Business Task Force, was that funds from government, which isn’t going to happen…. cumulative tax increases and an increase in red tape, Tose government programs aren’t going to be around death by a thousand cuts, would have signifcant impacts forever. What happens to those small businesses? What on small business. happens to our communities? What happens to our neigh- Prior to COVID-19, this government had 23 new or bourhoods? Quite frankly, what happens to the young increased taxes and had also, as we heard this morning, people in our lives — whether they’ll have a job? What increased the regulation on small businesses. Te Small happens to women? Will they have a job? Business Task Force sent a clear message to government While I appreciate that the minister has read of the that both items would really impact small businesses and, page views of people looking at the Small Business B.C. quite frankly, their competitiveness. website, the metric that I’m looking at is how many small Why has the minister ignored these two very vital businesses are actually open in our communities or will recommendations, which her very own Small Business legitimately be able to stay open. Task Force recommended? Ten the second piece that I’m hearing very clearly is: what happens if there’s a second wave, businesses have not Hon. M. Mungall: We’ve canvassed the issue of the reg- been able to rebound and the supports have not been there ulatory count with this member and other members for them to have any type of revenue come back in? Most extensively today. I’ll reiterate again, just to remind the have seen signifcant reduction in the revenue, even the member, that one of the recommendations was extending folks that are open, and then they’re going to be faced in the net-zero regulation requirement to 2022. We have been late fall, early winter with another cash bill, because they’re upholding the net-zero regulatory increase. going to have to pay taxes on the programs that they have [5:45 p.m.] accessed. What does that mean? We’ve committed to not increasing or, I should say, not [5:40 p.m.] ensuring that we have net-zero…. We have pulled the net- I am deeply hopeful that the Minister of Jobs, Economic zero regulatory requirement from our base level of 2004, Development and Competitiveness, who was very clear to and that is still the case. We’ve canvassed that extensively. criticize the previous government for a lack of what she In terms of taxation, that lies with the Ministry of Fin- said was a plan, will understand clearly what the plan is ance. I know that the member said 23 new taxes, and I when we don’t have these programs in place come Septem- fully encourage her to debate that number and any rhet- ber, when small businesses have incurred signifcant debt oric around that number with the Minister of Finance. and when, come next year, they’re going to have to start I’m sure she’s looking forward to that debate and those paying back taxes on what they’ve incurred? What is that questions in estimates. Tat’s where I’ll have to direct her going to do for British Columbia and for the people in on that. every single one of our communities? Again, the minister has acknowledged that they have C. Oakes: I’ve only asked one question on the regulat- Thursday, July 23, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 255 ory count. So I will continue. We are in estimates debate — Te member will know that the checklist was developed just so that staf are available. with the Small Business Roundtable, and currently our Te minister committed to a net-zero regulation count. process is that once checklists are completed, they are sub- I would remind the minister that that count has normally ject to cabinet confdence. been done year over year. Te regulatory count for 2017-2018 was 166,919, and as of March 31, 2020, the reg- C. Oakes: Tank you to the minister. I’m pleased that ulatory count was 167,635. When I do the math, that looks that framework still continues and that checklist exists. like an increase, in my mind, so certainly not a net-zero. We’ve seen, up to March 31, an increase in regulation. It’s certainly an increase. Tat is prior to any of the legislation that has been brought If, in fact, the ministry has made that shif from looking forward this session. year over year versus going back to 2004, that’s a very sig- Te minister has outlined that she does sign of on the nifcant shif in the priorities of this government and, spe- checklist framework that the Small Business Roundtable cifcally, the small business accord that was signed. put in place. What is the process? We’re seeing the net zero I recognize that, earlier, the minister talked about the go up, so I’m wondering. Does that…? I guess I fnd it dif- fact that each piece of legislation goes through…. Te fcult that the minister can’t necessarily say that they have name has changed. I think the minister talked about eco- success when they have a net zero. We’re seeing already, to nomic…. No. Tere was a diferent name that the minister March 31, that we’ve had an increase. Now we’ve got the used to acknowledge the regulatory count through each of bills that have been put forward to this House that cer- the ministries and the legislation and how they’re measur- tainly have signifcant concerns about the increase in reg- ing that. Tat was something our government started, and ulation. I’m pleased that the government continues to do that. Bill 23, you know…. While I can’t speak specifcally of I guess my question is…. Te increased count of that, what I can say is that the organizations on the Small 166,919 was as of March 31, 2020. Have all of the new Business Roundtable are the same organizations that have pieces of legislation that have been brought forward this put forward serious concerns about the red tape and the session been included in that regulatory count? regulation that Bill 23 presents. To the minister: you are responsible for signing of on Hon. M. Mungall: Te regulatory count would include this framework. Did the minister sign of on this particular any regulations associated with legislation that has been piece of legislation that will increase the regulatory burden fully passed up until the end of the fscal year, which would on small businesses in British Columbia? be March 31. Hon. M. Mungall: Te process for who signs of on the C. Oakes: Does the minister still have to…? Te pre- regulatory impact checklist for each piece of legislation has vious framework was that the minister had to sign of on always been and still is the minister responsible for the each piece of legislation that was passed or that was going legislation being proposed. to be presented to this House. I understand the confden- I just want to make sure that we’re clear on the policy tiality nature of the fact. that defnes the number of regulations. Te baseline is [5:50 p.m.] 2004 in the commitment from the previous B.C. Liberal I’m not asking specifcally for that process, but does the government and one that we have continued, because minister still have to sign of on each piece of legislation we’re not so partisan that we just throw everything out if according to the small business accord and the small busi- it’s a good idea. I agree that making sure that we have a ness lens and the legislative framework that has been put baseline to keep regulations in check — that there’s a net- forward to government on a responsibility that the govern- zero increase from the 2004 levels. It’s not that the num- ment has to include small business and regulation as a key bers allowed have increased or so on. We’re still working parameter of any legislation that’s brought forward? with 2004 numbers and a net-zero increase from those [5:55 p.m.] 2004 levels.

Hon. M. Mungall: We do have a regulatory impact C. Oakes: I think what’s troubling with that is that this checklist. Te policy that governs the checklist and the is frst time we’ve actually seen those numbers go up. So it’s checklist itself are available online. certainly a trend that is alarming to me. I refect on all of I always am happy to provide members with a copy sent the British Columbians…. to them via email, because I know that sometimes root- When you look at reducing red tape, it is non-partisan. ing around on the government website can be a bit chal- One of the most successful consultations that has lenging. Tat’s just because we have a lot of information happened in the last few years was around red-tape reduc- online. I’m happy to just streamline that process for them, tion and the ideas that have come forward from British if their Google search doesn’t get what they’re looking for, Columbians all over the province. I think with great pride, and get that to her. for example, of the one idea about making it easier and 256 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 23, 2020 simpler for organ donation registration and what a signi- is legislation that’s being brought forward in this House. fcant impact that piece of red tape that had changed had It is very clear and evident that there wasn’t certainty on how it can absolutely impact people’s lives. that was brought forward. Tere wasn’t consultation, [6:00 p.m.] and small businesses certainly haven’t been given the I have seen that frsthand and had the privilege to see necessary time to prepare. many of those ideas. So I guess I am concerned when Te other comment I’ll make is that one of the oppor- we see increases, and I’m concerned when legislation is tunities that we have in opposition…. As the critic for brought forward that I know is going to continue to small businesses, I’ve had the opportunity to talk to small increase that. businesses and stakeholder groups across this province. Moving back to the Small Business Task Force and the What I will suggest, too, is that by this new…. recommendations that were put forward, another one of Te one reality out of COVID-19 is that we’ve had to the recommendations that the task force would put for- fnd new ways of reaching out and listening closely. In so ward is the keen need for certainty — certainty in many respects, actually, this has proved to be advantage- decisions that government makes for small business and ous, because I can say all of the opposition MLAs have to ensure that we continue to have investment in our been regularly reaching out to their small business stake- province and that job creators continue to take the risk and holders and listening closely to their concerns. We have take on the debt to create those jobs. done town halls. How is the minister measuring that matrix of certainty? We’ve taken that information that we’ve heard frsthand Maybe I’ll ask: what is the checklist that the minister uses? from small businesses across this province, and we have She mentioned earlier today that there hasn’t been a bundled it in a non-partisan fashion. We have sent those change in prioritization in this ministry. How is the minis- ideas and suggestions forward to the government in 60 ter measuring certainty for small business? diferent suggestions and 13 diferent letters that we’ve brought forward. We were hopeful that we would see the Hon. M. Mungall: One of the things that…. We want to same level of non-partisan support that we’ve certainly create predictability. seen on the health side on the economic side. We’ve been Te member asks: do we have a type of checklist to disappointed that those recommendations have not ensure that businesses have greater certainty? We look at moved forward. things that will help create greater predictability — a min- Te minister mentioned minimum wage. Well, it was imum wage increase, for example. Rather than that being very clear…. Te minister acknowledged that she’s been lef up to the government of the day and the political listening to small business stakeholder groups. She would whims of the day, we created a step-by-step process that know that every single small business stakeholder group in had certainty around minimum wage increases. the province had raised concerns to this minister through [6:05 p.m.] various forums — and to the Premier. We want to make sure that we’re streamlining services Te fact of increasing costs at such a challenging time so that that creates greater certainty so businesses know when there is very little revenue or no revenue coming where they can get the services and supports that they in creates great uncertainty and great challenge for small need, questions answered about, perhaps, taxation — PST businesses in the province. Increased regulation, increased and so on. Tat net-zero regulation requirement is also costs to small businesses and tax increases create great very important to creating certainty. uncertainty to small businesses. Shifing priorities cause We want to make sure that when we’re working with signifcant challenges to small businesses. businesses, with the small business community, that we are I said up front that I want the government to be success- providing sufcient advanced notice for any changes that ful. We need you to be successful with the plan for small may be coming so that they’re able to prepare. Te only businesses. We highly encourage the government to con- thing certain is no change, yet the only thing constant is sider the recommendations that we’ve heard from small change. So we want to make sure that we’re having enough business stakeholder groups across the province. Teir advanced notice for businesses. thoughtful recommendations are recommendations that We also want to make sure we’re doing as much con- have been consistent since April. Small businesses are sultation as required and as possible so that businesses are deeply concerned that they continue to wait for what a involved and are engaged in decisions and changes that are plan will look like. going to be taking place. I wouldn’t say that’s housed in any [6:10 p.m.] particular checklist, which is like what we have for our reg- I want to turn a little bit of the focus. Earlier I had men- ulatory impact checklist. But these are the items that the tioned my signifcant concern with the lack of a jobs plan ministry defnitely has in mind as we look to create greater that this government has and the impact that the lack of a certainty. jobs plan will have on young people. I now want to turn to the lack of a jobs plan and the C. Oakes: One of the things that we canvassed earlier impacts it will have on women. Te outlook for women in Thursday, July 23, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 257 the face of the pandemic is devastating, experiencing the nomic recovery public consultation process — that good biggest setback in gender equality for a generation. Tis ideas can come from anywhere. Nobody has a hold on should be troubling for every single one of us. Support them. We wanted to make sure we opened it up to British is needed in fnancing, training to women-led micro and Columbians like Melanie so we could hear their ideas. small enterprise. In terms of what our government is doing to support I want to share with you, Minister, some thoughtful women in businesses, well, I think we can’t ignore the recommendations. If the minister wants to provide a fact that our government put forward the largest historical response back in writing, I certainly understand. But I investment in child care and that that has helped all fam- committed to Melanie that I would raise this as a small ilies and all parents but particularly women parents, as we business owner, living in northern British Columbia. know that still, today, women take on a larger amount of Her recommendations are to forgive the $40,000 loan domestic labour and child rearing than male counterparts for women business owners who continue to not be able in a heterosexual relationship. Tat child care component to work due to the school and daycare closures; extend eli- is very important for women. gibility of the 75 percent wage subsidy for hiring in-home Some of the reasons that we’re seeing women not re- child care so female business owners can return to work; enter the workforce as quickly as, perhaps, their male provide enhanced opportunities for women-owned busi- counterparts as jobs become more online is the matching nesses to access public procurement contracts that they of jobs restarting and child care restarting. Tere might be are qualifed to do; and, long term, address the tax code a lag in their child care, for example. I really wanted to to support women-owned businesses — for example, child acknowledge how important that historical investment in care as a business expense. child care is. We have to do more to support women entrepreneurs. One of our streams with the export navigator program I’ve certainly heard the minister, in the past, talk about the is specifcally for women. I have personally seen the suc- need for this. Can the minister outline specifcally the sup- cess. Te member talked about using metrics from her ports that this government is providing for women entre- own backyard, in her own community, where she sees how preneurs? businesses are doing. Well, I would say that a metric like [6:15 p.m.] that is how I would measure some of the success we’re seeing for women out of the export navigator program, Hon. M. Mungall: Just on a couple of comments that because in my community of Nelson, I’ve seen several the member made. businesses headed by women do exceptionally improved I’ve been hearing from small businesses on a host of sales because of the export navigator program. I think issues, and our government’s been very responsive in I’ve mentioned this earlier in estimates — Lillie and Coho terms of turning around and either developing a new pro- Hats. You can buy them online. Tey are very fabulous. gram or changing some policy through this period of Ten another way in which we are ensuring that we’re COVID-19. supporting women in businesses is that all of our legisla- Not all businesses asked to not see the minimum wage tion and regulation has a GBA+ lens applied to it as well increase. Some businesses certainly did. I just want to so that when we’re making legislation and regulation that acknowledge that the increase was going to the lowest are going to be impacting the business community, we paid workers — minimum wage workers. Tey have been have that very specifc lens that has proven, all over the incredibly hit hard because of the pandemic. So we did not world, to provide a better analysis of the gendered aspects want to take that certainty away from workers. of legislation and policy-making. I want to thank the member, though, for sharing the comments from her constituent, I believe — sorry if I have C. Oakes: Tank you to the minister. Tank you for it wrong, Member — Melanie. I really appreciate hearing being open to listening to the recommendations that have that kind of direct feedback. A lot of the feedback that been put forward by both opposition caucus and by con- you were sharing were federal government programs. I’ve stituents that we have heard. I do appreciate that. made note of that, and we’ll be sharing it with my fed- [6:20 p.m.] eral counterpart. As I said earlier in the estimates pro- I, too, am deeply concerned about the lower-paid work- cess, I have regular meetings with my federal counterpart ers in our province. I’m worried that they’re not going to to share with them the feedback that I’m hearing on the have a job. It’s one thing for the minister to talk about ground from businesses all across B.C. the importance of looking afer those workers. But we’ve Some of the ideas you shared are very worthwhile, con- clearly canvassed today why it’s so essential that we have an sidering that your recommendations from your caucus are economic recovery plan when we hear clearly the unem- already a part of the public consultation process that just ployment rate that this province is facing. A signifcant completed two days ago. We’ll defnitely take some of portion of that is lower-paid workers. On behalf of these those ideas and put them in for consideration as well. workers, we need a plan now. We need an economic recov- Tat’s what we’ve been saying all along with our eco- ery plan now. 258 Committee of Supply, Section A Thursday, July 23, 2020

Te Tourism Industry Association of B.C. submitted, hard. Governing is difcult. It’s critically important, as we this week, a recovery stimulus package for British Col- learned in government, to have a very clear, concise plan. umbia’s tourism and hospitality sector that brought forth [6:25 p.m.] some very thoughtful recommendations that would actu- As we look at closing and providing, I guess, my fnal ally help support workers, not just rhetoric or aspirational remarks to the minister, what we’ve canvassed through conversations about how we want to help workers. It will estimates over two days is that there has been a pretty actually put people to work. I think that’s a critically signifcant shif that we’ve seen through the Ministry of important thing. Jobs, Economic Development and Competitiveness, and Out of that were the recommendations we canvassed this priority shif has happened before COVID-19 earlier about making sure that there is an economic recov- happened, to be clear. ery grant, not just tax deferrals. Cash fow is a signifcant We’ve experienced a signifcant reduction in confdence challenge for so many. Te restaurant sector is having that we’ve seen from small businesses. We were, at one trouble. Tey’re concerned about how they’re going to pay time in Canada, leading the country in small business con- rent, how they’re going to pay suppliers, and how they’re fdence, and prior to COVID-19, that has been signifc- going to hire people back on and keep them hired, espe- antly reduced. We canvassed that last year in estimates, cially if there’s a second wave. Tat plan is critically and I was hoping for a stronger, clearer plan from this important. minister on how and what steps this government would I just wanted to go back quickly, though, to the mem- take to improve that business confdence. ber’s comments on child care and housing. I agree with the We heard from the minister that we have seen capital minister. I agree, as we move forward to support women, fee from British Columbia. Te minister earlier, in discus- how critically important that is and how, from a small sion on the forest sector, talked about how that’s a good business perspective…. I understand very clearly. Te B.C. thing when you see growth and investment leave the chamber and other stakeholder groups have identifed that province. I disagree. as a serious concern of small businesses. We heard from the minister that there’s a commitment In my community, I have seven spaces that are $10-a- from a net-zero and a small business lens that will be con- day daycare — seven spaces. I recognize that it’s one thing tinued. But what we also saw from this minister is that to talk about investments that are being made, record there’s actually an increase in regulation, and that increase investments in child care. But when I have seven spaces, I is going to increase the costs of small business and have am challenged with understanding how the minister can dramatic efects on people in British Columbia. support the idea that that’s somehow a success. We heard What we heard from this minister is that exports are clearly from the parliamentary secretary responsible for actually down under this minister. We have heard from child care this week that we are going to be signifcantly this minister, from a competitive nature, that the metrics challenged on the child care front with COVID-19, that we that we are looking to measure competitiveness…. Tat’s do not have enough spaces and that we are going to have permitting, taxation — those issues. We clearly know…. signifcant challenges. For the minister to talk about what Te minister was the former Minister of Energy and a great job they’re doing when we just don’t see those res- Mines. I can tell you on the permitting side, under our ults on the ground is very troubling. government — especially when you look at the placer sec- On the housing front, this government has done a ter- tor — you could get a permit through in about 60 days. rible job on delivering the housing starts that they prom- Tat has now gone up to anywhere from 180 to 240. So I ised. Tey promised British Columbia these housing starts don’t count that as a very strong success or a strong indic- that we’re just not seeing. We’re seeing housing starts go ator or a strong metric in how the minister has outlined down. We’re seeing the supply nowhere near what the gov- the success that they are doing. ernment should be providing. Tat has a real impact on Te minister talked about the success that they’re hav- women, it has a real impact on young people, and it has a ing on child care and housing. We just don’t see that. real impact on small businesses. Finally, the minister talked about the importance of I know we’re coming close to the end of that. I really do supporting workers. Again, when we have seen higher want to thank the minister. What I will say is that one of unemployment rates, then, across the province, and spe- the privileges of being in opposition is that we get to be cifcally higher unemployment rates for young people, that aspirational. We get to put ideas and thoughts out there. should be incredibly alarming. It’s a great opportunity. I had the opportunity to listen to My fnal comment to the minister, my fnal plea to the the member when she was in opposition. I have heard minister. Everything I’ve identifed here, and my col- some of the aspirational ideas that the member put for- leagues have, during these estimates of Jobs, Economic ward. I know with all sincerity that all of us as MLAs want, Development and Competitiveness suggests one thing: it is clearly, the best for British Columbians. I want to thank the critically important today that the minister take seriously member for that. What I will also say is that governing is what is happening on the economic front in British Col- umbia. It is critically important that this minister and this Thursday, July 23, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 259 government come out as quickly as possible with an eco- sure that we’re prepared and able to provide as much infor- nomic recovery plan before we lose more businesses and mation as we can that comes from this ministry. more workers are without long-term jobs to support their I want to thank them all very much for all of their eforts families to make sure they have a roof over their head and and for all of their help. What they can’t see in this room is to ensure that they have food security. that the member has given a thumbs-up for all of you guys and all of your hard work. Te Chair: Seeing no further questions, I ask the minis- I also want to say, because I have the foor, Chair, and I ter if they would like to make any closing remarks before I know that I have to give it up here…. call the vote. Before we go, I also want to say thank you to my won- derful family: my incredible husband — it’s our ninth wed- Hon. M. Mungall: I’m very glad to hear the member ding anniversary today — and my beautiful two-year-old express her strong, strong support for universal child care son, who is just the light of my life. I wouldn’t be able to and afordable housing and for making sure that we get do this job if I didn’t have that family support. Tey travel more afordable housing out into the communities around with me wherever I go around the province. We get to be British Columbia. I look forward to seeing her supportive together, and they provide me with the strength to keep on vote for those items and, perhaps, supporting the budget keeping on with all the wonderful work that this ministry when we complete estimates. and this job and being able to represent British Columbi- I have a suspicion, based on the rest of her comments, ans entails. that she may not be supportive of the overall budget. She clearly has some concerns. Te Chair: Okay. Tank you, Minister and all Members. I disagree with the way she and some of her colleagues have characterized the state of the economy here in British Vote 34: ministry operations, $93,116,000 — approved. Columbia and where things are headed. But you know what, hon. Chair? Tat’s why we have a democratic system Hon. M. Mungall: I move that the committee rise and where we’re allowed to debate and ofer up our diferent report resolution and completion on the estimates of the points of view, and thank goodness we have it. Ministry of Jobs, Economic Development and Competit- [6:30 p.m.] iveness. On that note, I just want to say that I’m not able to sit in this chair and answer questions without the tremend- Motion approved. ous help of the ministry staf people. What you don’t see in this little box here is the number of great people that are in Te Chair: Tank you, Members. I thank all of you. this room with me — all safely social distancing. It’s a large Have a good evening. room. Tey’ve been able to help me in providing inform- Tis committee now stands adjourned. ation from stacks and stacks and stacks — and I know the member will remember all of this — of binders, making Te committee adjourned at 6:33 p.m.

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