Dáil Éireann

DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COMHCHOISTE UM GHNÓTHAÍ AN AONTAIS EORPAIGH JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN UNION AFFAIRS Dé Céadaoin, 4 Samhain 2020 Wednesday, 4 November 2020 Tháinig an Comhchoiste le chéile ag 9 a.m. The Joint Committee met at 9 a.m. Comhaltaí a bhí i láthair / Members present: Teachtaí Dála / Deputies Seanadóirí / Senators Dara Calleary, Lisa Chambers, Seán Haughey, Regina Doherty. Brendan Howlin, Ruairí Ó Murchú, Neale Richmond. Teachta / Deputy Joe McHugh sa Chathaoir / in the Chair. 1 JEUA Business of Joint Committee Chairman: Apologies have been received from Deputy Marian Harkin. I propose we go into private session to deal with some housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed. The joint committee went into private session at 9.02 a.m., suspended at 9.10 a.m. and resumed in public session at 9.14 a.m. Engagement with Representatives from the European Parliament Chairman: On behalf of the committee. I welcome Mr. Barry Andrews, Ms Deirdre Clune, Ms Clare Daly, Ms Maria Walsh and Mr. Billy Kelleher. Today’s meeting offers us an opportu- nity to engage with our MEPs on issues facing the EU. Before we begin, our guests are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise the witnesses giving evidence from locations outside of the parliamentary precincts to note that the constitutional protections afforded to witnesses attempting to give evidence before committees may not extend to them. No clear guidance can be given on whether or the extent to which the evidence given is covered by absolute privilege of a statutory nature. Persons giving evidence from another jurisdiction should also be mindful of their domestic statutory regime. If our guests are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter, they must respect that direction. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Some of the MEPs sent opening statements to the committee. We will go straight into the discussion. If there are observations or questions from committee members, we can take them. Senator Lisa Chambers: I thank the Chairman and I thank the witnesses for joining us. It is great to be able to engage with our MEPs. One of the reasons we sought this engagement is that we are in our infancy and are just starting out as a committee in this term. We felt it was important to get the views of our MEPs on key issues being debated at EU level, namely, migration, the rule of law and the future of Europe. Before we, as a committee, seek to delve further into those topics, it would be good to get a steer from our MEPs as to how things are progressing in those areas at an EU level and what the word on the ground is in the EU. I know from having spoken to Mr. Andrews that he had a particular view that we should be doing more domestically in respect of EU legislation. He might want to touch on that. Migration is a contentious and controversial topic. It is difficult to discuss, but it is important that we discuss it. I know it is one of the biggest issues in terms of conversation at an EU level. The German ambassador spoke to the committee two or three weeks ago and she made it very clear that for Germany migration was the biggest issue. I would welcome the thoughts of the witnesses on what the committee should be looking at or focusing on and what they see as the key elements of the new pact on migration that is coming from an EU level and what that might means for Ireland. What is Ireland, as a member state, being asked to do in terms of 2 4 NOVEMBER 2020 migration? Chairman: I thank Senator Chambers. There was a specific question for Mr. Andrews. If other witnesses wish to indicate, I will take them in rotation. Mr. Barry Andrews: I thank the Chairman. I am delighted that we have been invited to speak to the committee and share our views. I was a member of the committee back in the day. In fact, I was Vice Chairman so I am well aware of its value in communicating what happens in the European Union to the interested Irish public. In my submission, I made a point about EU scrutiny. A sub-committee of the Joint Com- mittee on European Union Affairs dealt with scrutiny, but that now happens across all of the committees. I read about this matter and discovered that in 2017, the most recent year for which I could find figures, 455 proposals came from the EU and just seven reports were generated. It strikes me that in a post-Brexit situation where Whitehall is not available to us to X-ray all of the proposed and current legislation, the Oireachtas will need to up its game. We certainly need to reflect on whether the Oireachtas has the tools to properly scrutinise what is being proposed and how it might impact on the Irish economy and life more generally. There is much more qualified majority voting now. The Council of Ministers may not be as influential as it used to be. There are many more EU competencies. There is reason to reflect again on whether we have the necessary tools. On migration, the pact is about asylum rather than migration. I made the point in my submission that they are two different things. When it comes to migration, people are leaving for a better life. Those seeking asylum are fleeing for their lives. We need to make a clear distinction between the two. The pact is mostly about asylum and tries to deal with the Dublin regulation and the lack of solidarity for those countries that are on the front line of irregular population movements into the south and east of Europe. It does that in a couple of ways. For Ireland it may mean a relocation and resettlement system that will be much fairer and have a greater de- gree of solidarity. There are a lot of shortcomings with that. There is a proposal around screen- ing at external borders where there will be very serious human rights concerns. There will be concerns around the idea that member states can simply opt out of resettlement and relocation by sponsoring returns. I am not sure what exactly is meant by EU solidarity around asylum. There is a lot to be sorted out. A raft of legislative measures will come before the Parliament and Council in due course. Going back to my original point, there will be a lot to scrutinise for the Oireachtas. I hope that answers the Senator’s question. Ms Clare Daly: It is nice to see Deputy McHugh. The new Commission has pledged that this migration pact is going to be its thing. As a member of the LIBE committee, which deals with this issue week in and week out, I know there are enormous problems as a result of the continuation for years of what has been a very divisive policy around migration. As was the case when I was in the Dáil, a large number of Irish volunteers, including medics and activists, have been on the Greek islands at the coalface of the Dublin agreement. Desperate people, including unaccompanied minors, have been stranded in what are, in effect, camps. They have no way to get out, a situation that came to a head during the start of the Covid pandemic. That situation pertained well before that. The migration pact has been put forward as a solution to that. As Mr. Andrews said, there are gaping holes in the pact. We need to be incredibly careful because it continues a policy of the EU of, essentially, privatising border management and externalising responsibilities to 3 JEUA countries like Turkey and so on to keep refugees out of Europe. That will continue under this policy when, morally and legally, the EU has an obligation to assess every asylum campaign and avoid refoulement. We have seen an issue the committee should address. There is an issue with the EU borders. There are terrible things going on with border management. Appalling violence is meted out to people on the Croatian border such as, for example, cases where people have been pushed back by the Croatian authorities, yet the EU said it is ready to join the Schengen acquis. Revelations were published in Der Spiegel two weeks ago about Frontex, Europe’s border management, not only turning a blind eye to the abuse of migrants and the pushbacks to Libya in Greek waters, but being directly involved in that activity. The scary part is that the migration pact is primarily based on the policy of returns to countries like Afghanistan where there is already an agreement. It has been deemed to be the most unsafe country in the world. We saw the terrible bombing of Kabul University in recent days and the deaths of students. However, Europe has a policy in place to return more Afghans.

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