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Ethically Speaking #3: Machine Vision and AI Impacts of Patient Care, with Mohammad Mahoor, PhD Transcript

Dylan Doyle Burke 0:12

Welcome to the Ethically Speaking Podcast. I am your host, Dylan Doyle Burke. Ethically Speaking is a podcast dedicated to asking the fundamental questions of what it means to be ethical in a rapidly evolving world. This episode is part of a series focused on interrogating the ethical questions of and . Ethically Speaking, is sponsored by the Institute for Enterprise Ethics housed at the Daniels College of Business at the University of Denver. The Institute's mission is to serve the public good by integrating ethics into professional and corporate cultures. In today's episode, we are delighted to be in conversation with Dr. Mohammed Mahoor. Dr. Mahoor is a professor in the Department of Electrical and Computer at the University of Denver, and the Director of the and Social Robotics Laboratory. Dr. Mahoor received his PhD from the University of Miami, and his research focuses on visual , social robot design, and bioengineering. Dr. Mahoor is an expert on computer vision and pattern recognition, machine learning and , algorithm development, effective computing (including facial recognition), socially assistive robotics, social behavior analysis, and so, so much more. By the end of this episode, we hope that folks listening will have a better sense of how machine vision and artificial intelligence robotics can help patients who may have Alzheimer's, dementia, or other neurological concerns. We also hope that folks at the end of this episode have a better sense of the ethical themes surrounding machine vision as it continues to grow and develop out in industry and out in our world.

I'm here with Dr. Mohammed Mahoor. Welcome to the show, Dr. Mahoor.

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 2:34

Thank you. Good morning, and thanks for having me.

Dylan Doyle Burke 2:37

Absolutely. So, as we get started, could you tell us a little bit more about yourself and how you got into this field of artificial intelligence and machine learning?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 2:44

Yes, so I've been in faculty at the University of Denver in the Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering for about 12 years now. And my research is about computer vision and machine learning nowadays. They call it AI. Although, you know, AI is a general buzzword term nowadays, but specifically my research is about effective computing, emotion recognition and then using emotion recognition technology in social robotics. So, the idea is to humanize, you know, machines and robots, right? So [to] use social robots to assist and help people with different disabilities such as children with autism, older adults with depression, social isolation, Alzheimer's disease and dementia. So, I would say, you know, effective computing, and social robotics, right now.

Dylan Doyle Burke 3:43

And we'll get more into the specifics of your research. But how did you how do you find yourself working on this? Was there like a moment where you decided "this is what I want to focus on?"

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 3:52

Yes. So, I mean, that when I was a graduate student, I was very interested in image processing. And then I got really interested in face recognition. That was my PhD all about biometrics and facial face recognition, face identification. And then I worked as a postdoc in the Psychology Department. So, I learned from psychology [about] right modified emotion. And then the question that you're working on back then, what the research actually was all about, [was] using automated technology or computer algorithms to analyze people's eye gaze, attention, and facial expressions. And particularly, we wanted to see how emotion actually is developed in children over time. So, I worked with developmental psychologists, and my job as postdoc was to come up with a computer vision algorithm. And yeah, to automatically recognize facial expressions and also eye gaze attention. So that's how I got into the field of affective computing and emotion recognition. And then after I joined DU, then... Really, I enjoy what's going on here in the Engineering School at DU. And I saw a lot of robots here. And then, with the help of one of the faculty actually, be focused mostly on social robotics, or humanoid robots. That's the name that they use it in the past. And so, then we thought about applications. Since I worked as a postdoc in the Psychology Department, I'd worked with children with autism, then I thought that we can use technology to make a better life for children with autism. So that's the first research that I started on social robotics. And then after that, we thought about other applications of social robots. And then depression was another application that we worked on. And then we thought "okay, so maybe even people with cognitive impairment" such as older adults with Alzheimer's disease or dementia, that a social robot could help as well.

Dylan Doyle Burke 6:24

Yeah, I am curious about the "how" of how machine vision can help and whether that's changed through time as the technology has changed.

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 6:37

Yeah, absolutely. So, machine vision or computer vision... We call it mostly computer vision because we work with computers on just the specific machines to be able to run those algorithms. So, the idea is to basically... I mean, that you use a camera to be able to see the world, and then [use] true AI and machine learning to be able to do object recognition, body tracking, even medical , image understanding and so on, so forth. So, in, I mean that in early days mostly, computer vision was all about image processing maybe 30 years ago. But then other problems actually -- I mean, AI researchers worked on other problems such as motion, tracking motion estimation, pose estimation, and then

object detection, face recognition, face detection, and so on, so forth -- But nowadays with the improvement in machine learning AI and specifically deep learning and convolutional neural networks, you're able to build systems that are end to end; they are more powerful, they can basically model in that huge amount of data, they have more capacity in terms of machine learning.

Dylan Doyle Burke 7:58

Can you give an example of something that's possible now with deep learning and neural networks, that wouldn't have been possible?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 8:06

Yeah, so deep learning, I mean, it's something that we had in the 80s, but we didn't have enough data and also, we didn't have enough computers. You know, powerful computers to be able to train models. And of course, there are advancements in deep learning techniques and neural networks. So, one of the things that [maybe] 10 years ago or 15 years ago, we could do it but not a good accuracy was object detection and object recognition. But using deep learning, we can train a model using millions of images, and samples. Using, for example, imagenet data set that contains millions of images. So, then we can do object recognition with a very high accuracy, very close or even better than human accuracy so we can beat human accuracy. So, what does it mean, "object recognition?" It means that you have an image, and you look into that image, and then you want it to know what objects are in the image. To, for example, to label them saying that if you take an image, a picture of my office, so we can say that those are all books, right? That's a computer. That's, you know, my backpack and so on and so forth. So that sort of thing.

Dylan Doyle Burke 9:29

And so then how do you how do you apply that to say a child with autism? How would that help them out in the field?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 9:36

Yes. So, in the case of autism, for example, it can be used to... I mean to practice social skills with them, to interact with them, and then to the interaction; we basically teach them eye gaze attention, turn taking, and emotional recognition, describing emotions and so on and so forth. So, we use it as a tool to help them and assist them. With... I mean, to practice social skills is not... So, the idea is not to supplant human [work], but it's basically to assist [the] therapies. And it's mostly because children with autism they like objects, robots and technology, and human interaction is very overwhelming for them. So, we take the advantage of technology to connect with them and help them. So, I have seen even some... I mean that people have created technology that are wearable devices and then children with autism can use them to give them suggestions. It's not been commercialized yet. I think this is still research, projects, and research tools, but I see a promise for them in the future to be used.

Dylan Doyle Burke 11:00

So, in that rollout of when it does become commercialized, and it moves from academia to industry, how do we do that well?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 11:13

So, you mean that where we are now in terms of how many companies have been commercializing these kinds of technologies? Or...

Dylan Doyle Burke 11:22

And also, with a gaze towards ethics when we're talking about robotics, and then it goes out into the market, maybe to publicly traded companies and kind of those kinds of things?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 11:32

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question. So, I mean, that a couple of years ago, we're still worried about the accuracy of technology, how we can build better models and so on and so forth. But recently, maybe in the past few years, we pay more attention to privacy ethics, and so on and so forth. So, I think there are a lot of debates going on about ethics, ethical AI. So that's something that I think I'm still learning. And I think that it does have many dimensions and angles. People from different genomes should look at this problem from different perspectives, right? And yeah.

Dylan Doyle Burke 12:17

So, for you as a researcher, because I know some of our listeners are also in the research field... I'm wondering as you as you go through this social robotics, these experiments and building these robots, what questions you ask yourself in order to make sure that what you're doing is ethical in the experimentation phase and the research?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 12:38

Yeah, that's a very good question. So, a few things... I mean, that one is to make sure the algorithms are fair in a sense that they are not biased. So, means that I do have enough data to present all the labels and all classes. So that's from technology development. And from the other perspective is to... I want to make sure that I comply with all the rules and the guidelines to make sure that we do not violate people's privacy, and we do not abuse any of the data without [their] permission, we do not share their data. And [that] basically everything is clear to users when we use human data. So that's very important for me as a researcher.

Dylan Doyle Burke 13:28

And as you move them from working with children with autism, then to depression. Does that change anything in terms of what [you focus on]?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 13:38

Yeah, because we are talking about children versus older adults. Their application is different, their concerns are different, their needs are different. So totally, almost totally different.

Dylan Doyle Burke 13:58

So specifically, about depression. How did machine vision or computer vision...?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 14:02

Yeah, depression and I would say also cognitive impairment and dementia. right? So, because people with cognitive impairments, they have often sign of depression and social isolation. So, we are working on using computer vision, and then integrating them with social robotics right to make a better life for people with depression and dementia. So, the idea is to make sure that our robot understands people's emotion and also understands their social isolation and try to empathize with them, try to connect with them. So basically, the idea is to create or make a companion-bot right. So, to provide companionship actually for people with social isolation. Because most of these people that we work with are lonely; they are socially isolated, they live in senior care facilities, right? And oftentimes we see that they don't have the chance to talk to other people because caregivers and nurses are busy; they may spend maybe 20 minutes or 30 minutes you know of time with them. Or even they may not have the motivation or even [the] physical ability to go to social gatherings or go to different events that even their organization, or senior care facilities, arrange for them. So, if we can bring more people into their room... By more people I mean the true technology to connect them with the world. I think that would make a difference. Huge difference.

Dylan Doyle Burke 15:45

I'm curious about your use of the term "understands." So, you said something like "to make sure the robot then understands what they're going through." Or empathizes? And I don't know if you used the word empathy or not, but I was wondering if you could talk to me about "understand."

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 16:02

I mean that to perceive, to recognize people's emotion. And once you recognize people's emotion and people's need to either their voice or language or facial expressions, then you can empathize with them. And then you can respond, to come up with better responses. And, in fact, we wanted to humanize technology. So, we want to make sure that our robot is not cold, [that there] is a robot that has some social components in it, so then it can better relay and better connect to people with social isolation. That's the point.

Dylan Doyle Burke 16:46

Yeah so, what are some of the unique challenges of doing that work as opposed to maybe some other elements of robotics? So, it's one thing in robotics to move a crate of something from Point A to Point B, it's another thing to humanize...

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 17:03

So, as you said, so I've worked a lot on the technology [and] want to make sure that the technology is mature [and] accurate, right? It's doing well. But then on the other hand, we wanted to create a robot that, first of all is appealing to users. I mean, that you're familiar with the notion of "Uncanny Valley," right? So that's very important. So, we don't want to create a robot... that after a while, or even at the beginning, is not attractive for them. So that's very important; [wanting] to make sure that it's aesthetic, attractive, enjoyable, and engaging. So, these are the human factors. So, we want to make sure that in terms of user interface and also user experience, we do a good job. So human-robot interaction or human-computer interaction. So that's the only thing that's very important to us, right? So, it's not just the technology, [it's] also the user experience and user interface. So, we want to make sure that users can use our robot easily without a lot of training. And also, that the robot also is helpful and useful.

Dylan Doyle Burke 18:29

And [I] will make sure to put a link to the work that you're currently doing, the research that you're currently doing in the show notes. But I was wondering if you could talk about what you're working on right now. And how you make that more accessible to users?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 18:48

Yeah, so we have been working on the on a robot called "Ryan" for about four or five years. Now we have received funding from NIH to start a company called Basic Technologies(?) And so we're working on the next generation of the robots with better technology, more improved [and] better accuracy in terms of , emotional recognition, language processing, and so on so forth. And also, we run pilot studies. We have human subjects participated in this study. So, we want to make sure that based on the user's feedback and caregivers feedback, we improve our robots so that they have better experiences, and it's more acceptable by them and is more helpful.

Dylan Doyle Burke 19:40

In my short experience with seeing Ryan in action, there is almost an "Uncanny Valley" element to it where Ryan tracks you throughout the room and is able to have conversations to a certain degree with you. Can you talk more about Ryan's capabilities?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 19:57

So as far as the Ryan capabilities go. We have considered dialogue and conversation for Ryan. So, you can have maybe about five to 10 minutes [of] conversations about a specific topic. So that's one of the main features of Ryan and we want to make sure that that piece right is well developed. And the other feature that we have considered is music therapy, reminiscence therapy. These are the common practices [used] by therapists for people with dementia and Alzheimer's disease. EXR games is another feature so you can either co-play or play against Ryan; having different computer games or brain games or CT scans, we can have that with Ryan. And also, Ryan can motivate you to be physically active. Just doing basic physical activities, such as Tai Chi dance, or some other "simple games" we call them. And we are going to also add few more features. For example, you can have a video conference with your family members using Ryan, or they can send a note or a message actually, to Ryan to you, pretty much similar to some of the features that Amazon Alexa has. And also, you can schedule and so to notify the calendar, to go to events, and basically take your medications and so on and so forth. So, I would say there are about five to seven features.

Dylan Doyle Burke 21:52

And who's the ideal audience for Ryan? Is the idea to keep this more in the health care or home care world or Is it to eventually be able to bring it out to a general population?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 22:05

General population... For now, we are focused actually on people with their needs, right with cognitive impairments and social isolation. Yeah, it's possible also to use it for general audiences, right? For example, Ryan can be used in the lobby of School of Engineering, Computer , to welcome people and to greet people, right? And even answer their questions, like a concierge or like a receptionist. So that's another possible application, which is actually is easy to be done right, with the features that we have.

Dylan Doyle Burke 22:39

Can you talk a bit about how facial recognition technology plays in to Ryan? because my sense is that Ryan can read people's facial [expressions], correct?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 22:48

Yeah. So, as I said, Ryan can recognize people's emotion and emotion is through facial expressions. So that's, again, [a] true deep neural networks, or computer vision in general. So, we can read people's faces and perceive their emotion and facial expressions. And then once you have that, then you can basically either mimic or mirror that emotion. If you're happy, I will show a happy face too. We kind of do it as human beings. But if I see that you are sad, then [I will ask] what makes you to be sad today, right? How can I help you? Something like that. So that's how we use emotion recognition technology integrated in Ryan; when it comes to conversation, when it comes to showing explorations, and basically interacting with people.

Dylan Doyle Burke 23:48

And Ryan also has a face of Ryan's own, right?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 23:52

Yes, yeah.

Dylan Doyle Burke 23:53

And so, Brian is able to mirror or mimic, I don't know, I don't know what verb to use. Is it...?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 24:01

It is mirroring mostly. Sometimes also we force Ryan to show specific emotions as well, or [write a] command is saying that they (Ryan) show these expressions. Ryan all the time mirrors people's positive expressions. So, if you show a smile, Ryan [will] smile back.

Dylan Doyle Burke 24:23

So is Ryan working off of... learning from... How is Ryan being programmed, I guess? Is it teaching itself to a certain degree, or is it all supervised?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 24:34

Most of it is supervised, but also it does have a memory when it comes to conversation. It's pretty much like Amazon Alexa. We do not use their technology; it's something that we have been developing , but it does have memory. So, if you say some words to Ryan, Ryan would memorize those words and next

time and have a conversation about that specific topic. He would learn, or remember that that's your interest. Or what kind of questions you asked in the past. Or if you have conversation, let's say about a very specific topic, right? And you may leave at some point, and pause that conversation and resume later on, then Ryan would know where we left off when it came to that conversation.

Dylan Doyle Burke 25:26

Do you or your team ever begin treating Ryan as if Ryan was one of you? Like one of your team?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 25:35

Many times, yeah. Even [when] we had... When our visitors come, with the new version actually, they wanted to hug Ryan. And we tell them "be careful" because we still have not implemented all the safety algorithms to make sure that, because the arms are active in this version, the new version doesn't hit them or nothing happens actually. *Laughs*

Dylan Doyle Burke 26:00

That's interesting, right? Kind of a next stage of going from verbal to touch, right?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 26:07

Yes. Yeah, and I think touch is very important. So, we have to be careful that in terms of technology and safety we are covered. You're doing good.

Dylan Doyle Burke 26:21

So how do you do that? Because even in the purely human world touch is very difficult to navigate.

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 26:31

So that's something that is still we are working on. A lot of brainstorming between my team members and me, and some of our advisors. So, you're thinking of adding some proximity sensors to make sure that when there's a person actually in vicinity of Ryan, or close to Ryan. So, we make sure that we don't move the arms, we're very careful about that. But that's something that will be added very soon.

Dylan Doyle Burke 27:02

So how close are we to seeing Ryan out in the world?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 27:06

So, our plan is to do another round of human subject studies this Summer. And I think we are close, I would say maybe one year, or maybe more, a little more.

Dylan Doyle Burke 27:21

So, about 2021, we might be able to order...?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 27:25

2021, yeah.

Dylan Doyle Burke 27:27

*Laughs* I know, time flies. How long have you been working on this project in particular? It seems like a summation of a lot of your research.

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 27:34

Correct yes. So, I would say I started my research on social robotics since 2010, actually about 10 years [ago].

Dylan Doyle Burke 27:48

How have you seen social robotics change in that time?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 27:54

I have seen a lot of changes actually. Specifically, when it comes to human-robot interaction. Lots of research has been done. And I have seen many companies actually raise money; they try to create a social robot and they fail. They filed for bankruptcy. So, it worries me. *Laughs* Yeah, but I still think that it's very promising. And it's doable. And I have the motivation, actually, to continue this project.

Dylan Doyle Burke 28:35

That is interesting, though, right? Through the years... Why do you think that is? And you don't have to name any specifics, but is there something specific about robotics that makes it difficult to implement?

Unknown Speaker 28:50

Yeah, one of them is robotics. First of all, they over promise, maybe they had a very high goal. Choice of hardware also add timing I would say. That maybe for one particular company, they announced they wanted to go to market and with the same feature that Amazon Alexa has, so they could not compete with Amazon Echo or Alexa. So that was also another thing. So, you have to differentiate yourself from other products or say what are the value propositions of your product. People compare and say that "Okay I can buy Amazon Alexa, especially the dot version for $30, and then buy Social Robots for $700. What is the advantage, what do I gain? If I buy that robot versus this robot..." Then you compare the markets, then the market commercialization business plans.

Dylan Doyle Burke 29:59

The economics of it are, I think, fascinating as it becomes more commercial out there. But it's interesting to hear, because I've had these conversations with folks in industry, who are very... You know... They want their company to succeed or their technology to succeed. But it's interesting even coming from an academic perspective that you have to pay attention.

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 30:21

Yeah. So, I let the company actually to take care of the business and economics, not me. I'm a faculty [and] care about research, and just the technology itself. I'm not good at business. *Laughs*

Dylan Doyle Burke 30:42

One of the things I think is fascinating about your research in your project, even going back to your postdoc work, is that it's almost by definition interdisciplinary?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 30:52

Correct.

Dylan Doyle Burke 30:53

And I was wondering if you could say a little bit about that, because I think sometimes, engineering in particular, gets a bad rap. For being kind of its own ivory tower, just dealing with math.

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 31:04

I think we have past [that] era nowadays. In [the] early stages [it's] mostly is all about interdisciplinary teamwork, and so particularly my research is very interdisciplinary. I collaborate closely with Psychology. with doctors, with nurses, caregivers. So, to be able to understand the disease, for example autoimmune disease, and also AI-based technology to help patients/

Dylan Doyle Burke 31:42

If I was an institution, and I wasn't DU, who was having issues with siloing between different departments in terms of artificial intelligence development or machine learning, or things like that. How have you gone about operationalizing that and making sure that you have the connections that you need.

Unknown Speaker 32:05

Yeah, if we can have an institution, that then brings all people on board, [who] can have dialogues with each other, and then offer or teach courses. It doesn't just cover... Technology also covers other aspects of AI, like for example, ethics, fairness, and legal matters [like] privacy issues, safety and security. So, I think that would be great. And I think it's happening; you see that many schools try to bring other people on board . And even at DU, we started among us different divisions [and] schools. Law school, the Business School, and also School of Social Work, and so on, so forth. Even some collaboration with either fiscal or theology [if] you're aware of that. So, we can work together, and we have to work together to address all these concerns that people have nowadays about AI. About technology if AI is going to take over the world, how far VR [is] from having very smart computers and machines, and what aspects of AI need to be improved... All these matters [and] requires collaboration and more dialogues between all [parties].

Dylan Doyle Burke 33:38

Well, let's talk about that fear. So, Dr. Mahoor, Is AI going to take over the world? From your point?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 33:48

*Laughs* No, not so. At least I believe we are a hundred years away from AI [being able] to take over the world. In my opinion. *Unintelligible* Now, it's not there yet. We may misuse or abuse technology? Even right now with the AI that we have and technology, we may abuse them. We may misuse them or even... I mean, yeah, that's a different story, but in general to have a machine that can have a war against human on their own?

Dylan Doyle Burke 34:35

So how do we account for that fear? I guess from where you're from, you're sitting as an engineer who's working with this technology day after day after day, right? How do we account for that fear of social robotics? Is it just, you know, Hollywood, propagating it? Or is there something more real there?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 34:52

I think it's a natural concern, right? But we need to educate people and tell them about what is behind this technology. And what's going on really behind the scene. And also make sure that we do not use them for wrong applications or against people.

Dylan Doyle Burke 35:21

We seem to treat artificial intelligence or social robotics as different than other technology, say a bulldozer, right. Like we're not having conversation right now saying, "are bulldozers going to take over the world?" And I'm wondering...

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 35:36

Well bulldozers are very smart nowadays. They're all equipped with GPS and without a driver. They can do their job; you can program them and using GPS and waypoint navigation and technology. They can do...

Dylan Doyle Burke 35:58

... So maybe that's the conversation we should be having about whether bulldozers are going to take over the world. *Laughs* But is there something qualitatively different about artificial intelligence technology than other technologies that we might see from your perspective as an engineer?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 36:14

That's a good question. Uh, you know most technologies, most devices [and] machines nowadays are going to be equipped with AI to make them smarter. To help us, to be more efficient, more productive, more accurate. So... And of course, since we talk about, you know, smart... we have smart devices, they are intelligent, right? So, then you [are] always you're worried that... so what are they going to do, right? Are they going to be out of control, who's going to control them, who's going to monitor them, [and] how [can] we assure that they will not do something wrong?

Dylan Doyle Burke 36:58

And that calls back to what you started saying at the opening to this conversation about definitions. And artificial intelligence and AI being this buzzword.

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 37:10

It's a good buzzword. I mean, I'm not against it. But we have to be careful. How you know? What is it exactly, right?

Dylan Doyle Burke 37:19

Do you have a dream for social robotics or for computer vision out in the world say in like 50 years if we've solved all the problems, or I don't know if it's ever possible to solve all the problems, but do you have a vision for what this technology can do in the later future?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 37:37

Yeah, I mean I hope technology can help [make] us better to... to eradicate many diseases, right? To make a better life. [A] better world actually for people. Not just in developed countries, [but] also in other countries as well. So that's [what] I hope can happen.

Dylan Doyle Burke 38:05

Well it sounds like your research is already starting or continuing that conversation. For folks at home who are just getting involved in this topic, or students, or anyone who wants to be where you are, doing this work on a day to day basis and is passionate about it. What advice would you give or what do you wish you knew when you were starting out doing this work?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 38:35

I don't have an answer to that *Laughs* But I would say, I mean, it depends, right? What your interest is, whether you wanted to learn technology, how these systems work, or how you want to apply them use them for different applications. So, it really depends on what your interest is and what your passion is. So, I'm interested in technology. To take it out of the lab, and commercialize it, and let people use it.

Dylan Doyle Burke 39:21

Here's another way of asking the same question... for social robotics. And this question may not be a fair question, but is social robotics the future?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 39:32

It can be the future, I think so. I think robotics basically has a lot of promises, and it can help us a lot. I see a good future for robotics in general, and specifically social robotics, which is this field or area in robotics.

Dylan Doyle Burke 39:53

Could you say more about some of the potential ethical abuses happening right now?

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 39:58

Yeah so now that's a very good question. So, my worry is if we use technology, especially by governments to control people and monitor people; using, for example, computer vision technology deployed to lots of cameras, and monitoring individuals and citizens, and see how they behave. Where do they go? What do they do? And then try to use technology to violate their privacy and then even sometimes penalize them. And you may think that you're doing something wrong, so that's something that I'm really worried about. And that's scary, especially nowadays, right? Companies and governments and many people talk about smart cities, digital cities, smart homes, and so on and so forth. So, we have to be very careful in that to not to violate actually people's freedom and privacy. So that's the scary part.

Dylan Doyle Burke 41:01

Do you feel as a researcher yourself, that as you go around developing these technologies, and you don't always know how they’re going to be applied in 20 years down the line...

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 41:25

Yeah that's my biggest worry. How people use AI and technology. It's not just how to use AI and the technology [to make sure] it's fair, but even fair technology can be used for the wrong application or to do something wrong.

Dylan Doyle Burke 41:37

That's something that I think a lot about in terms of fairness, or the conversation around fairness, that has been a lot about bias and about how we create fair algorithms. And I think the conversation is now moving towards that application question.

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 41:54

Absolutely. I think the question about fairness is something that can be addressed. There's some work in the choice of data into the optimization techniques. I think that if you define fairness carefully, and if you quantify fairness, I think it can be addressed. We had a conversation about this, if you recall, in the past. So that's possible. It's not a big deal. But then how you want to apply the application, I think that's the most important aspect of AI that I'm worried about.

Dylan Doyle Burke 42:35

You get into this trap of thinking that technology... That you can just build a better algorithm, we can fix all that and create this ethical utopia.

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 42:50

That's the most important thing. We need to carefully address that and be careful about it.

Dylan Doyle Burke 43:03

And really it seems look into the application of how we're applying...

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 43:10

I mean for now yes, you have to be careful about that.

Dylan Doyle Burke 43:13

Well Dr. Mahoor thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Mohammad Mahoor 43:16

My pleasure, thank you for having me.