Vol. 726 Thursday No. 135 31 March 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Olympic Games 2012: Olympic Truce Trade Unions: Ballots House of Lords: Prayers EU: European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism Business of the House Timing of Debates Draft Defamation Bill Membership Motion Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment of List of Responders) Order 2011 Charities (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Order 2011 Companies Act 2006 (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Order 2011 Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 (Time Limit for Appeals) (Amendment) Regulations 2011 Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 (Armed Forces and Reserve Forces Compensation Scheme) (Rights of Appeal) Regulations 2011 Motions to Refer to Grand Committee Economy: Growth Debate NHS: Standards of Care and Commissioning Debate Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny: EUC Report Motion to Endorse Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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familiar with it. It is encouraging to hear today a House of Lords significant change in the Minister’s reply. In the past, however charmingly she has replied, all that she has Thursday, 31 March 2011. sent the noble Lord has been a “Dear John”, but maybe things are now changing. Having watched the 11 am cricket yesterday, do we not remind ourselves of the potency of sport for peaceful objectives? Having seen Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds. Pakistan and India sitting side by side and embracing each other, I wish his project well. I hope that the Olympic Games 2012: Olympic Truce Minister will continue to use that as an example of Question sport and peace and the ways in which they can go together. 11.06 am Baroness Garden of Frognal: I thank the noble Asked By Lord Bates Baroness for her kind words in among that. I am not To ask Her Majesty’s Government what specific quite sure where the question was, but if it was whether initiatives they are planning to implement the Olympic we agree that sport is an excellent forum for international Truce for the 2012 London Olympic and Paralympic co-operation, the answer is yes, indeed we do. The Games. Government have some major programmes to encourage sport among young people as well as to support our major adult sporting events. Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, the UK will be promoting a fresh resolution calling for the continued observance of the Olympic Truce for the Lord Higgins: My Lords, does the noble Baroness 2012 Games and is currently working with overseas accept that some of the finest athletes in the world, partners in 15 countries and planning activity in a particularly long-distance runners, come from areas further three on International Inspiration, a sports that are now troubled by war in one form or another? programme targeted at countries in development. Other The idea of the truce was that people in those initiatives are being considered by the Foreign and circumstances could get to the Games. Does she accept Commonwealth Office and we expect to learn the that we should do everything possible to ensure that results of this work shortly. The London Organising good athletes can do so? Will she also recognise that Committee of the Olympic and Paralympic Games is few athletes remain at the top for more than four years also undertaking truce-related programmes. and that if they are prevented from attending they have therefore lost a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? Lord Bates: I thank my noble friend for that Answer Not only are they disappointed, but so are the people and for the encouraging progress that has been made. who hoped to beat them. Can she confirm that this Olympic Truce resolution is a resolution of the General Assembly of the UN, Baroness Garden of Frognal: My noble friend speaks which quite specifically calls on all signatories to pursue from his own experience as an Olympic athlete and initiatives for peace and reconciliation in the spirit of of course I agree with what he says. We in the UK will the ancient Games during the London 2012 Games? do what is in our power to encourage people from This year, the resolution will be not only signed but disadvantaged countries to attend and compete in the proposed by the United Kingdom Government. Does Games. A great deal of that depends on the response she agree that it therefore presents a unique opportunity from those individual countries as well but, as I have to hand on a legacy from the London 2012 Olympic said, that will not stop us trying. Games not only in medals won and land reclaimed but in the lives changed and saved and in the health and humanitarian aid extended? Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, what success are the Government having in brokering a truce between the noble Lords, Lord Coe and Lord Moynihan? Baroness Garden of Frognal: I thank my noble friend and of course I agree with what he says. He is tireless in his work to achieve successful outcomes for Baroness Garden of Frognal: The noble Lord raises 2012 through the Olympic Truce, which indeed presents an issue that has been in the news just recently. The a unique opportunity for the UK to lead on proposals two organisations that the noble Lords represent normally for the sort of peace and reconciliation that he suggests. work closely together for the good of the outcomes of In previous years, these truce agreement proposals the Olympic Games and I have no doubt that, in the have not resulted too often in major outcomes, but greater interests of delivering a highly successful 2012 that will not prevent us from trying again this year. It Olympic Games, any disputes will soon be resolved. will, of course, be for the United Nations to agree policy actions. Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, does the Minister agree that it would be in the interests of Baroness Billingham: My Lords, we must congratulate peace and reconciliation if the directors of Tottenham the noble Lord, Lord Bates, on his tenacity; I think Hotspur Football Club were to abandon their that this is the third or fourth time that we have extraordinary attempt to go to judicial review over the debated this and we are all becoming much more legacy issue of the stadium? 1337 Olympic Games 2012: Olympic Truce[LORDS] Trade Unions: Ballots 1338

Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, Tottenham on 16 February the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hotspur’s decision is probably slightly wide of the Wallace of Tankerness, opposed the Rooker amendment Olympic Truce, but I note what the noble Lord says. on the ground that it would be a deterrent to people turning out because they might not know whether Lord Addington: Would it not be good if the idea of their votes would count, are workers not deterred as a truce were extended by this Government and indeed well? Secondly, if on 5 May the turnout is 37 per cent, all our allies to all the major sporting gatherings—world will the Government repeat Mr Clegg’s comment on cups, championships and so on—so that those taking the Barnsley by-election that 37 per cent was “an part paid some attention to international activity outside? abysmally low turnout”, or—surprise, surprise—will That would be a real legacy to take away and it would they say, “That was astonishingly high”, and that not be confined to an event that takes place once every 25 per cent or something like that is a perfectly good four years. basis on which to change our constitution?

Baroness Garden of Frognal: I entirely agree with Lord De Mauley: My Lords, the two cases are my noble friend. Sporting activities of any sort provide completely different and there is no reason why the opportunities for co-operation internationally. We balloting arrangements should be the same. The voting recognise that there is a high degree of competition constituencies in union recognition ballots, averaging between countries, but that does not alter the fact that a few hundred, are tiny compared to those of referendums. there is tremendous camaraderie between sportsmen The workforce concerned is often co-located and can and sportswomen in any one sport. For them to get to be easily accessed. It is therefore much easier in this know and befriend their counterparts in other countries case to ensure a large turnout, provided that the can only be to the good in building international workers are genuinely interested in union recognition. relations. Lord Razzall: My Lords, I am sure that the Minister Baroness Heyhoe Flint: My Lords, does my noble will find it ironic that the noble Lord, Lord Lea of friend feel able to mirror the Spirit of Cricket campaign Crondall, should at the same time be advocating the that the MCC has promoted in furthering cricketing removal of the threshold in trade union recognition causes in Afghanistan, which was promoted originally ballots and the introduction of a threshold in the AV by my dear late friend Lord Cowdrey? referendum. I find that absolutely extraordinary and no doubt the Minister does as well. Baroness Garden of Frognal: My noble friend raises an important point. Once again, the use of the Olympic Lord De Mauley: Yes, my Lords. Truce for these sorts of developments has to go through the United Nations, but inevitably we are hoping to build up programmes with other countries. I mentioned Lord Peston: My Lords, I do not think that the the International Inspiration programme, which aims Minister has even understood the Question that has to bring the benefits of sport to 12 million children in been put to him, but consistency and rationality are 20 countries. We are trying to expand that; it is an not exactly hallmarks of the present Government. ambitious programme but it might be a feasible one. Does he recall that the threshold amendment that we are talking about was passed in your Lordships’ House on the basis of a full argument? Why is there a Trade Unions: Ballots different set of criteria here, given that your Lordships Question voted for a threshold in the first place?

11.14 am Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I hear what the noble Asked By Lord Lea of Crondall Lord says. I suggest that we have had a fair amount of debate on the subject over recent months and I suspect To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they that more may be occasioned in the future. There is intend to remove the threshold of 40 per cent of the little precedent for thresholds being applied to referendums electorate having to vote “yes” in ballots on trade in the United Kingdom. There was no threshold in the union recognition in order to secure a positive referendums on Scottish and Welsh devolution in 1997, result in addition to a simple majority. the Belfast agreement or the Greater London Authority in 1998, or in the north-east referendum in 2004. Also, Lord De Mauley: My Lords, the Government have no threshold is specified for mayoral referendums no plans to change the statutory procedure for the under the Local Government Act, despite very low recognition of trade unions. turnouts having been seen in practice in some cases.

Lord Lea of Crondall: I thank the noble Lord for Lord Grocott: My Lords, the Question was confirming this double standard. There is a high hurdle—a fundamentally about whether the Government are double hurdle, in fact—for trade unions to jump, but adopting a consistent position in respect of determining in the Government’s proposals for a radical change to the validity of a decision. Can the Minister simply the constitution there is no such double hurdle at all, explain why, when we are changing the constitution simply a vote of 17 per cent to 13 per cent or whatever. of the country, presumably for a very long time, the I have two questions for the Minister. First, given that Government feel that there is no necessity even for the 1339 Trade Unions: Ballots[31 MARCH 2011] House of Lords: Prayers 1340 level of a threshold that is required for the recognition Lord Roberts of Llandudno: In Wales, we do not of a single trade union? It seems to most people to be a have an established church, but is it not time for totally contradictory position. Prayers in the House, including the present Prayers, to reflect the diversity of the different faiths and Lord De Mauley: My Lords, let me say, if I may be denominations that we have not only in the House but so bold, that that was not what the Question was in the United Kingdom? Is this not an opportunity for about. The Question was about union recognition us to consider having a minute of silence and reflection ballots. The Government’s position on that is, “If it in addition to the Prayers? ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, the practice Lord Geddes: My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt, of Prayers in the House is believed to have started in is the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, not slightly misinformed? about 1558, and was common practice by 1567. The We are not voting for a change in the constitution on present form of Prayers probably dates from the reign 5 May. We are voting as to whether we should have of Charles II. Recent changes to the form of Prayers such a change. included allowing a choice from a range of Psalms, which was agreed by the House in 1970, and again in 1979, and one or two other minor changes. It might be Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I do not think that I a little premature to consider changing them now. have anything to add. Lord Anderson of Swansea: As a Welsh non-conformist, Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, this is a like the noble Lord, may I assure the Minister that complex issue that is probably worthy of a lengthier many of us are wholly satisfied with the timeless debate; in seven minutes, even without hesitation, sentiments and superlative prose of the present Prayers? deviation and repetition, we are going to give it only a However, may I ask the Bishops’ Bench to consider cursory examination. I trust that the Minister will one little matter as an act of fellowship and agree that the seminar at No. 10 this week on encouraging togetherness—that at the end of Prayers we all repeat employee engagement, an approach started by the the Grace, as happens in the other place? previous Government, is a path worth pursuing. Will he also agree that, during the recent recession, trade unions with enlightened employers agreed to things The Chairman of Committees: I would need to such as a shorter working week, temporary lay-offs discuss the latter point with the Bench of Bishop but I and delayed pay increases to save jobs, using this entirely agree with what the noble Lord said in the first period also to engage in additional training? Surely part of his question. I do not believe that there is the Minister will agree that encouraging constructive anything in the Prayers which could possibly be seen dialogue between trade unions and enlightened employers as offensive to members of other religions. is a much better way forward than trying to restrict trade union recognition. The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds: My Lords, I hope that we will take on board the point which has Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I cannot find anything just been raised. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, makes in what the noble Lord said with which to disagree. an important point about how the House is to demonstrate I will leave it at that. its inclusivity while retaining what is good and worthwhile in its living heritage. In this year of celebration of the King James Bible, and its continuing inspiration 400 years House of Lords: Prayers on, will the Chairman of Committees comment on Question whether our Prayers, which date from the same era, also embody virtues which are simple, eternal and 11.20 am unifying? Asked By Lord Roberts of Llandudno The Chairman of Committees: I am sure that the To ask the Chairman of Committees what right reverend Prelate is right. If there are further consideration can be given to widening the scope of recommendations for changes to the Prayers used, I House of Lords Prayers into devotions encompassing would be happy to look at them. other Christian traditions and the faiths that are represented in the House. Lord St John of Fawsley: Does the Chairman of Committees agree that he has expressed the view of The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of most Members of the House, though not all? I agree Tara): My Lords, as noble Lords are aware, the Prayers with him entirely that we must not interfere with the read at the beginning of each Sitting of the House are rights of the Lords Spiritual. At the same time, I read by one of the Lords Spiritual. The Lords Spiritual believe in the idea behind this Question. We can best sit by virtue of being representatives of the established meet it by respectfully and humbly offering advice to church, and the Prayers reflect that. Any changes to the right reverend Prelates either in private or in alter the Prayers would need to be considered by the public. Is he aware that I have put down a Question for Procedure Committee and agreed to by the House. Short Debate which contains the suggestion that we There are currently no plans to alter the arrangements have a debate on the ecumenical movement between for Prayers. different churches and faiths? May I suggest that we 1341 House of Lords: Prayers[LORDS] Financial Stabilisation Mechanism 1342

[LORD ST JOHN OF FAWSLEY] The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I thought have it in the dinner hour as the noble Lord would that we might come to the arguments about reform of then be in peril of hearing me speak, which would get the House. I am pleased to say that I have not taken him out of purgatory? part in any consultations on reform of the House. I understand that we will see proposals for reform fairly shortly. It will then be in matter, if and when there is a The Chairman of Committees: The noble Lord makes new House, for that House to decide whether it wants some interesting points, but I am not sure that any of Prayers and, if so, what form of Prayers it wants. them require an answer from me.

Lord Cormack: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord Hughes of Woodside: My Lords, I declare an Lord, Lord Anderson of Swansea, spoke for many of interest as an honorary vice-president of the British us when he endorsed the present form of Prayers and Humanist Association. Without commenting on the made the plea for the Grace to be said together. established church, I will say that my personal preference However, will my noble friend agree that many in this is that we should not have Prayers at all. If we have to House who are not of the Christian faith, such as have an opening ceremony in which religion may play my noble friend who sits beside me who is a Hindu, a part, will the Chairman of Committees make sure warmly welcome the sentiments contained in the Prayers that the views of humanists are properly taken into and the majesty of the language in which they are account? uttered?

The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, the noble The Chairman of Committees: The noble Lord is Lord questions why we have Prayers. It is a strength absolutely right. I tried to give that impression in an and a defining feature of the House that its practices answer I gave earlier. are a matter for its own governance. These customs and practices can be altered, but after consideration by the Procedure Committee and then by the House as The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, may I suggest to a whole. I remind noble Lords that attendance at the Chairman of Committees that we introduce variety Prayers is voluntary, not compulsory. in the Collects? There is a wonderful range of Cranmer Collects. Could he say how the committee represents the church’s views? Is there a permanent member of Lord Elton: My Lords, may I assure my noble the committee from the church? friend that the concerns of humanists are entirely met by prayers by Christians in this Chamber every day? The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, the noble Earl wrote to me about the possibility of using different The Chairman of Committees: Well, yes, my Lords. Collects. I have the matter in hand and I will come back to him in due course, after I have consulted the Lord Clark of Windermere: Does the Chairman of Bench of Bishops. Committees accept that there is a feeling that we need to move forward on this? Perhaps I might suggest that we bear in mind the sentiments best reflected in EU: European Financial Stabilisation Hymn 279 in the Primitive Methodist Hymn Book, Mechanism which begins: Question “When wilt Thou save the people? Oh God of mercy, when? 11.29 am Not kings and lords, but nations, Asked By Lord McAvoy Not thrones and crowns, but men!”— and I include women in that. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions took place between the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr Alistair Darling, and his successor, The Chairman of Committees: I am grateful to the Mr George Osborne, before the decision was taken noble Lord for informing me of the contents of that to join the European Financial Stabilisation hymn, but I am not entirely sure I agree that it is the Mechanism on 9 May 2010. sentiment of the House that we should move on this matter. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): My Lords, the European financial stability Lord Elystan-Morgan: The noble Lord has properly mechanism was created following agreement by a qualified reminded the House of the traditions of its ancient majority of member states at ECOFIN on 9 May past. However, with regard to the immediate future 2010. All contact between the Treasury and the then and the anticipated reform of the House, can he opposition parties in that period followed the agreed confirm that there have been consultations with the Cabinet Office guidelines for the 2010 general election. representatives of Christian denominations other than Both my right honourable friend the Chancellor and the Church of England, and indeed on a wider basis, the previous Chancellor set out their accounts of the with regard to the future composition of spiritual discussions in their written evidence to the Political representation? and Constitutional Reform Committee. 1343 Financial Stabilisation Mechanism[31 MARCH 2011] Financial Stabilisation Mechanism 1344

Lord McAvoy: My Lords, I thank the Minister for Is an apology not due to my right honourable friend, his Answer. Which of the two following positions is who acted entirely properly and consistently with this correct—David Cameron saying that George Osborne note? objected to joining the mechanism or Treasury Minister Justine Greening, who signed the document, saying Lord Sassoon: No, my Lords. No apology is due. I that cross-party consensus had been gained? have already tried to make it clear, but let me make it absolutely clear again. Consensus was reached on the Lord Sassoon: My Lords, they are both correct. process by which the ECOFIN qualified majority It may be helpful if I explain the situation a bit voting meeting would take place. That, as has also further. The discussion on which there was consensus been made completely clear, is quite a separate matter concerned the process that would apply at the ECOFIN from my right honourable friend the Chancellor making meeting on 9 May. There was no consensus on the clear his position on the underlying policy matter. The question of the underlying policy matter. As my right two matters are distinct. The decision on the policy honourable friend the Chancellor said in his written matter was for the then Chancellor, Mr Alistair Darling. evidence to the Political and Constitutional Reform He was the Chancellor at the time and he took the Committee: decision. “The purpose of the phone call was not to reach agreement, but for Mr Darling to consult me on the course of action he Lord Newby: In view of the stress tests on the Irish proposed. Given he was still Chancellor of the Exchequer at that banks that were recently announced, will the Minister point, representing the UK in a dynamic negotiating environment, confirm that any further support that the Irish banks it was for him to reach decisions. He did this, aware of my views”. might need via European mechanism facilities that are That is the evidence of my right honourable friend the already in place will not require any additional funding Chancellor. from the European financial stability mechanism?

Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, can my noble Lord Sassoon: I am grateful to my noble friend friend confirm that, whatever precisely may have happened Lord Newby for again bringing us back to important on that regrettable occasion in the recent past, so far current matters. The results of the Irish banks’ stress as the future is concerned there is firm agreement tests, as I understand it, will be released by the Central between us and the European Union that, when the Bank of Ireland at 4.30 this afternoon, so it would be present mechanism is replaced by a new mechanism in inappropriate to comment on them. Of course, the a couple of years’ time, we shall not be part of or Irish authorities have consulted Her Majesty’s Treasury, bound by that new mechanism? the Bank of England and the FSA about the impact of bank restructuring, and the Government expect that the forthcoming announcement will remain in line Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble with the broad principles of the support package friend Lord Lawson of Blaby, who, as is customary, provided to Ireland. I would just add that the Government brings us back to what is really important. I can have made clear their commitment to ensure that the absolutely confirm what he says. At the European Northern Ireland banking sector continues fully to Council on 17 December 2010, this Government did meet the needs of businesses and consumers in Northern what the previous Government failed to do, which was Ireland. to get agreement that there would be an amendment to the treaty that would achieve a permanent mechanism Lord Pearson of Rannoch: In view of what the noble to be established by the member states of the euro area Lord has said, whatever Mr Darling and Mr Osborne to safeguard the financial stability of the euro area as may have said to each other is entirely irrelevant a whole. Therefore, it is indeed correct that, as of 2013 because the Commission had the nerve to bring forward at the latest, the United Kingdom, being outside the the mechanism under a clause in the treaty—in fact, euro area, will not be part of this mechanism. That is the clause is to allow member nations to help one the critical point, which I can confirm. another in natural disasters—which is decided by majority voting in the Council. Therefore, the British Government had no hope of avoiding our 14 per cent share of Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I agree that this £50 billion, which we can ill afford at the moment. is an important point of public policy. However, it should be appreciated that there is a significant matter at stake, because my right honourable friend Alistair Lord Sassoon: My Lords, without rerunning previous Darling appears to have been accused by the Prime discussions with the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Minister of acting out of faith as far as the present Rannoch, on the precise interpretation of the articles, Government are concerned. The document signed the critical thing is that under the agreement reached by Justine Greening, the Economic Secretary and at the European Council on 17 December, and very therefore answerable to the Chancellor, related to the much led by my right honourable friend the Prime legislation. It is headed “Explanatory Memorandum Minister, it is clear that Article 122(2) of the treaty will on European Union Legislation” and the last paragraph no longer be needed for purposes of support in this is as follows: form. Without debating what has happened in the “It should be noted that whilst agreement on behalf of the past, let me just say that my right honourable friend at UK was given by the previous administration, cross-party consensus the European Council has secured complete clarity for had been gained”. the future. 1345 Business of the House[LORDS] Economy: Growth 1346

Business of the House Companies Act 2006 (Consequential Timing of Debates Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Order 2011 11.37 am Moved By Lord Strathclyde Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 That the debate on the motion in the name of (Time Limit for Appeals) (Amendment) Lord Hollick set down for today shall be limited to three and a half hours and that in the name of Lord Regulations 2011 Turnberg to two hours. Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 Motion agreed. (Armed Forces and Reserve Forces Compensation Scheme) (Rights of Appeal) Draft Defamation Bill Regulations 2011 Membership Motion Motions to Refer to Grand Committee 11.38 am 11.38 am Moved By Lord Strathclyde Moved By The Chairman of Committees That the Commons message of 28 March be That the draft orders and regulations be referred considered; that a Committee of six Lords be appointed to a Grand Committee. to join with the Committee appointed by the Commons to consider and report on the draft Defamation Bill Motions agreed. presented to both Houses on 15 March (Cm 8020); and that the Committee should report on the draft Bill by 19 July 2011; Economy: Growth Debate That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following members be appointed to the Committee: 11.39 am L Bew, L Grade of Yarmouth, B Hayter of Kentish Town, L Marks of Henley-on-Thames, L Mawhinney, Moved By Lord Hollick L Morris of Aberavon; To call attention to the case for policies to support That the Committee have power to agree with economic growth and to promote investment, the Committee appointed by the Commons in the innovation, technology, infrastructure, skills and appointment of a Chairman; job creation; and to move for papers. That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records; Lord Hollick: My Lords, today’s debate on growth That the Committee have power to appoint specialist draws on the impressive range of experience and advisers; knowledge in our Chamber. We have five maiden That the Committee have leave to report from speeches to look forward to—from the noble Lords, time to time; Lord Kestenbaum, Lord Wood, Lord Collins, Lord That the Committee have power to adjourn from Popat, and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. place to place within the United Kingdom; One of the keys to growth is productivity, and in That the reports of the Committee from time to today’s time-constrained debate, although gratefully time shall be printed, regardless of any adjournment somewhat extended, that means saying more in less of the House; time. I will do my best. I do not wish to rehash the debate about the pace of the fiscal consolidation adopted That the evidence taken by the Committee shall, by the Chancellor. That was discussed at length last if the Committee so wishes, be published; and week. Putting the public finances on a sound and That the Committee meet with the Committee sustainable footing after the financial crisis is an essential appointed by the Commons on Monday 4 April at first step towards recovery, but we cannot cut our way 4.00 pm in Committee Room 6. out of our economic problems. We also need a credible strategy for growth, because growth matters. Small Motion agreed, and a message was sent to the Commons. changes in the growth rate over the next few years can undermine the Chancellor’s deficit reduction plan, and if he chooses to stick to plan A that might well Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment lead to even deeper and more damaging cuts. Low growth in the short term will make big differences to of List of Responders) Order 2011 our standard of living in the long term. A reduction in our long-term growth rate from 2.5 per cent to 1.5 per cent would reduce aggregate Charities (Pre-consolidation Amendments) growth over the next 20 years by nearly 30 per cent. A Order 2011 prolonged period of low growth would inflict a decade 1347 Economy: Growth[31 MARCH 2011] Economy: Growth 1348 of stagnation, a loss of international competitiveness, While that deregulation is promised, other parts of a sharp deterioration in public services and a generation the Government are busy undermining proven ingredients of jobless young people. The Government now of our success. The creative sector, where I spent much acknowledge this and have begun to turn their attention of my career, accounts for more than 7 per cent of to growth. Growth in our economy is currently anaemic, GDP, and relies on the steady supply of richly talented and we still have the full impact of the cuts to come, individuals. That does not happen as a course of with their inevitable blow to consumer and business nature. The likes of James Dyson, Paul Smith, Ridley demand and confidence. Food and fuel prices are Scott, Simon Rattle, Keith Richard and Alexander rising, and the Japanese economy has been badly hit. McQueen all went to art school, where the wild and Against that background, the risk to the OBR’s forecast the wacky creative talents can flourish. Art schools is very much on the downside. have had significantly to up their intake of overseas students to make ends meet. That, and the high level The Plan for Growth, published with the Budget, is of fees, risks choking off the very supply of talent, a welcome document, and so are many of the measures often from disadvantaged backgrounds, that we need announced in the Budget to promote growth. The to remain a world leader. plan is the latest in a long line of efforts to improve our economic growth rate, stretching back to the work of Reductions in the level of taxation on profits and Neddy in the 1960s. Indeed, my noble friend Lord an increase in the level of tax incentives to invest are Layard and I are veterans of the 1996 Commission on guaranteed a very warm welcome, but have they been Public Policy and British Business report, entitled targeted effectively? In the light of the need to boost Promoting Prosperity. What is striking about this 50-year investment, I would favour tax breaks on investment body of work is that, after allowing for the impact rather than a faster reduction in the overall rate of of greater globalisation and the emergence of new corporation tax. Why does investment in capital goods technologies, there is a remarkable consistency of analysis, receive favourable tax allowance treatment, when findings and proposed remedies. Underinvestment, intangible investment in process improvements, creative low productivity, inadequate skills, lack of availability ideas, skills and IT, all of which drive innovation and of finance and over-burdensome regulation are ever- productivity and in many businesses are the most present themes. This consistency points to the deep-rooted important components of growth, are disadvantaged? nature of the problem and the sheer difficulty and In addition to their aim to achieve simplicity in tax complexity of raising the growth rate in a developed matters, the Government should also adopt the principle country in a highly competitive world economy. of neutrality. The UK has long been a laggard in capital investment. Another lesson from past growth initiatives and Last year, investment sank to 15 per cent of GDP, plans is the overriding importance of excellent and down from a 30-year average of 17 per cent, compared consistent implementation and execution of policy with 19 per cent in Germany and 21 per cent in measures. Too often, Governments chop and change, France. Two particular areas of underinvestment stand introducing new wheezes which have a short-term out: infrastructure and energy.In its report last November political impact but fail to provide the consistent and on growth priorities, the McKinsey Global Institute predictable environment that business needs. Much is estimated that the UK needs to spend £350 billion on promised, but little is delivered. transport over the next 20 years to renew our strategic network of roads, railways and airports to expand Improving productivity is a key driver of growth capacity and help to close the productivity gap. A and has rightly been a priority in all plans. Yet, despite further £170 billion is required over the same 20-year a good relative performance over the past 15 years, period to renew our energy infrastructure. It is therefore UK productivity per hour is some 17 per cent lower regrettable that the Government have gone for a quick than the US and 10 per cent below that of Germany. political fix on fuel duty by clobbering the oil companies Our services sector, the largest driver of jobs growth, and thereby putting the oil companies’ investment responsible for 65 per cent of private sector output, plans at risk. accounts for much of that productivity gap. Improved skills, not least management capability, greater innovation The Government currently enjoy exceptionally low and improved levels of investment are necessary long-term borrowing costs and should and must be at preconditions to improving productivity. the heart of this vast infrastructure investment programme. But here we come up against a persistent and wretched The Budget brought some notable changes to planning piece of Treasury dogma, which dictates that, unlike and important clarity on tax treatment of overseas in most OECD countries and contrary to the rules profits, but only limited deregulation. Some old friends operating in the European Union, all borrowing by reappeared. Enterprise zones, despite their very modest the Government, even if it can be serviced from cash record and short-term impact, are back in fashion. revenues, must be included in the PSBR. Of course, Better, surely, to make the whole of the UK an enterprise borrowing that has to be financed through future zone with time-limited measures to promote enterprise, taxation must be included, but if the return exceeds investment and business formation. If the Government the cost of borrowing, the borrowing should not count really believe in localism, allow our cities to introduce towards the PSBR. As my former colleague at the their own set of policies to attract investment, to IPPR, Gerry Holtham has pointed out, a state develop clusters and to meet local training needs. infrastructure bank could turn the PFI model on its Business and investors partner with cities around the head and provide loan finance for the construction of world, and would welcome the opportunity to do so in a road which could then be leased to the private sector the UK. in return for a rental income which can service and 1349 Economy: Growth[LORDS] Economy: Growth 1350

[LORD HOLLICK] help the one sector of our economy that can create the repay the debt. Road usage forecasting is sufficiently majority of new jobs that we so badly need. Again, robust to enable the risk to the taxpayer of default to timidity seems to have won out. be covered by an appropriate guarantee charge, which The Plan for Growth reminds me of my school should be included in the PSBR. report—“a worthy and promising start, but much, The income to finance the renewal of our road much more needs to be done”. The OBR’s judgment network will flow from the long overdue introduction was more dismissive; it saw insufficient evidence that of road pricing, which can easily be deployed using the The Plan for Growth would do anything to raise long-term vehicle number plate recognition system that works growth. I anticipate that your Lordships will identify very effectively in London. Charging consumers for today many ideas and opportunities that will help us the use of expensive public assets is a fact of life in to improve on that position. most countries, but in the UK, the very threat of it leads to a serious outbreak of jitters in the Government. 11.52 am I have advocated its introduction to Ministers in this Government and their predecessor and have always Lord Higgins: My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow been met with an enthusiastic response to the idea but the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, and I congratulate him a terror at having to take responsibility for its introduction. on obtaining this debate. He certainly made a very The very severe challenges we face require boldness thoughtful speech. It is interesting that he presented and courage from the Government. Timidity simply no alternative to the Government’s views; rather, he will not do. presented a series of ways in which the present policy could be enhanced. Each of the items that he mentioned Road pricing is but one example of how Governments deserves careful consideration. can open up new markets and foster demand without recourse to the Exchequer. This Government and their As the noble Lord pointed out, we had an opportunity predecessors have been quietly and impressively working, last week to consider cuts and the rate and extent of using administrative and legal powers to create new them. I remain firmly of the view that the Government markets in the energy sector. Feed-in tariffs and the are doing the absolute minimum required to get the upcoming Green Deal are two such examples. The economy back on an even keel, because, as the OBR costs of the solar panels installed under the feed-in report and the Red Book make very clear, even at the tariff scheme are largely borne by the total population end of the five-year period, despite all the cuts and the of electricity consumers. The Green Deal is likely to tax increases, the actual amount of debt will have gone see a range of energy-saving technology installed in up rather than fallen. The longer one delays in taking homes, paid for by loans from electricity suppliers, action, the bigger the amount that you eventually have which will be paid out of fuel-cost savings. The green to pay off in total. mortgage thus created will attach to the property until Perhaps I may make another point. As the noble repaid, regardless of who the owner is. Both schemes Lord also rightly points out, the time available for will create many jobs quickly, boost the economy and debate today has been extended, but it is still down to encourage product innovation and manufacturing. four minutes per speaker. It is very difficult to deal Another more conventional idea floated by the Secretary with the points that he has made in a speech of four of State at the Department of Energy and Climate minutes. We should seriously consider whether a really Change just before the Budget, which sadly did not extended debate in the Moses Room in which we could survive the Treasury cull, was to lower the rate of VAT go into the OBR’s report in depth, because it is a very to 5 per cent for a limited period for home refurbishment good report indeed and raises a number of issues, and repairs up to a limit of, say, £20,000. This would would not be more to the advantage of the House have created many new jobs quickly, improved the than time-limited debates on the Floor of the House. housing stock and brought some cash transactions I distinguished last week between two ways in which that are currently not in the VAT net back into the the expression “growth” may be used. It may be used VAT net—all at a modest cost to the Exchequer. to represent the fact that existing spare capacity is Perhaps the Secretary of State’s suggestion is being being used up more and therefore there is growth, or it held back for next year’s Budget. may be used to represent increasing the underlying Another opportunity to stimulate a market and productive potential, which the noble Lord largely create demand at no cost to the taxpayer is the provision concentrated on. The course which the OBR is setting of sophisticated healthcare technology to the home in gradually mopping up that excessive capacity—it that can be monitored remotely and that will allow the anticipates that the end of the cycle will come in about elderly and infirm to remain safely and happily in their 2016—is the right way to go. That is very similar, I feel own home and to delay or avoid the expensive option bound to say, to what was attempted back in the early of a care home. This could be financed out of existing 1970s, although unfortunately that was wrecked by a local authority budgets. massive increase in import prices. We are faced with Ready access to finance is the sine qua non of the same problem. It was stigmatised as a dash for growth. SMEs complain about the lack of availability growth. I do not think what we are now proposing is of loan finance and the steep cost of loan renewal. that, nor do I think that it was then. What we have to Project Merlin might help but needs to be very closely do is get a steady increase in the amount of demand in monitored. Many SMEs are held back by a lack not of the economy. loan finance but of capital, and while there are welcome As regards the underlying productive potential, increases in the EIS and VCT allowances for early-stage certainly we need to have more investment but we also companies, the threshold levels are set far too low to need more saving. The reality is that those who have 1351 Economy: Growth[31 MARCH 2011] Economy: Growth 1352 saved prudently, particularly those on low fixed incomes Another issue promoted in the Budget which the such as my former constituents in Worthing, find that sole voice of the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, has their savings have been seriously attacked. It is very reminded us about over the years in your Lordships’ difficult to think why anyone should save at the moment, House is the value of promoting high-value manufacturing given that it is virtually impossible to get a real rate of via partnerships between the industry and universities. return on savings. Therefore, as far as the productive The decision to promote and to support high-value potential is concerned and the Keynesian relationship manufacturing, technology and innovation centres—surely between saving and investment, I would very much that is the least elegant phrase among all the acronyms hope that the Government will now take further steps that the Government have come up with—is extremely to increase the level of saving and give some real welcome. The first, in Sheffield, on its own will generate incentive for savers in the sense of an actively positive 400 jobs and will enable the specialist engineering rate of return. sector in that area, which Boeing and others have I find that I am already out of time and I have a supported, to flourish further. speech for about the next two hours. Alas, I shall resist More generally, I have considerable sympathy with that temptation. None the less, the noble Lord has got the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for the debate off on a very sound footing and I look investment. We support road pricing and I would forward to hearing what follows. support the proposal which I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, will be speaking on: a national investment 11.55 am bank. The Treasury will argue against many desirable Lord Newby: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, things. That should not be a reason for our not doing Lord Hollick, for introducing this debate and I very them. The noble Lord, Lord Hollick, said that at this much look forward to all the speeches, not least the point we should be bold and that timidity will not do. maiden speeches. In my short time, I should like to say We need to tell the Treasury that, as well as everybody something about manufacturing. It seems to me that else. we have a unique opportunity to see growth in this sector. In a sense, the bankers have done manufacturing Noon a favour in that banking no longer has the kudos, nor Lord Kestenbaum: My Lords, I begin by expressing appears to many young people, I suspect, to be quite gratitude for the generosity and warmth with which I the wonderful career that it did. have been received into your Lordships’ House. I have There is no doubt that within and among young experienced kindness and consideration from everyone people there is a huge interest in this sector. I have I have encountered. I have also discovered that the done some work with the F1 in Schools and Greenpower wisdom residing in this House is quite extraordinary. charities, both of which set engineering tests for schools My sponsors, my noble friends Lord Sainsbury and to enable children to get a taste of engineering and to Lord Puttnam, did much to ease my nerves, and the promote engineering as a rewarding career. There is dedicated staff have been a remarkable source of no doubt that the enthusiasm with which these programmes guidance—in one case literally, as a distinguished are taken up demonstrates a very large interest. Demand doorkeeper gently stopped me from walking straight for engineering as a career is not a problem. into a broom cupboard on my very first day here. The issue is how we should put the structures in Perhaps this challenge of losing and then regaining place to enable young people to take it up easily. I one’s bearings is an appropriate personal metaphor. should like to commend two initiatives in the Budget. As my family name, Kestenbaum, indicates, home The first is the university technical colleges, which will until the traumas of the 20th century was Germany. promote vocational training. This area has been Leipzig and Frankfurt were our origins. At the time consistently underplayed. Many educationalists say when Europe turned dark, our family, together with that children should not specialise at an early age but millions of endangered others, fled. It was a circuitous my work with organisations such as the Prince’s Trust route, first to the United States and then to Japan, and SkillForce persuades me that for many children where I was born, then back to the US, and finally, as a vocational route is clearly what they want and is a child, to Britain. It was here that our community apparent at a relatively young age. Anyone who wants learnt that this country did not expect you to make a to see a case study should read the autobiography of choice between loyalty to one’s faith and loyalty to the Stuart Pearce, the under-21 England manager. He was national interest while both are pursued with dignity. hopeless academically but was a terrific electrician, But as I enter into this debate on economic growth, which is what he did before he went into football. it is no coincidence that I should reflect on the two Many children know at a relatively early age that they economies in which I grew up: Japan and the United do not want to study many academic subjects but that States. My parents, while bringing up a young family they are really interested in vocational subjects. in Japan, saw at first hand what has since been dubbed Secondly, this Government have increased the number the Japanese economic miracle, a transformation in of funded apprenticeships in the previous Budget and the standard of living powered by growth. But the lost in this Budget by 125,000, which is very welcome. The decade of the 1990s, as it became known, is yet to be challenge is on the private sector to take them up now found. The United States, our family’s pre-war refuge, that they are available. The manufacturing sector having became the world’s largest economy not least by virtue been keen to ask the Government for additional support of new technologies which saw GDP per head grow for apprenticeships, the ball now is in its court. I hope sevenfold in the 20th century. But despite this, more that the Government will press it hard to make sure recently President Obama has said that the US economy, that these apprenticeships are taken up. in order to grow, will need to reach a level of innovation 1353 Economy: Growth[LORDS] Economy: Growth 1354

[LORD KESTENBAUM] debate, I suggest, is as much about the society that we not seen since the space race. So I am grateful to my wish to build as it is about the economy which will noble friend Lord Hollick for calling urgent attention help build it. to this matter. We are now learning the same lesson as I offer thanks to your Lordships’ House for giving those other economies—that growth is not a national me the opportunity to make my maiden speech on a birthright, and the heady days when economic power subject that I feel will underpin many of our concerns was concentrated in the hands of a few are over. in the months ahead. In recent years my colleagues and I have been privileged to back some of Britain’s brightest young 12.06 pm entrepreneurs. During my time as CEO of NESTA, and now as chief executive of Lord Rothschild’s family Lord Bilimoria: My Lords, what a privilege it is to investment interests, we have scrutinised thousands of follow the absolutely superb maiden speech of the business plans and met hundreds of young high-tech noble Lord, Lord Kestenbaum. This is a debate tailor- innovators; and I have watched their concerns, particularly made for his Lordship. He has hit the ground running, among a group of young entrepreneurs in Manchester showing the invaluable input that he will bring to this with whom I worked closely. Those talented graduates House, particularly in the field of innovation and did not just want to build new businesses, they wanted enterprise where he has had huge experience. He made to feel that the embrace of new ideas and new technologies his mark in this country as the former CEO of NESTA, was central to our national purpose. The prize is great. the National Endowment for Science, Technology and Research published last week by NESTA entitled Vital the Arts, the largest endowment in the UK, fostering growth shows that these fast-growing, innovative businesses innovation, and the country’s biggest source of seed continue to punch way above their weight, with just finance for technology start-ups. 7 per cent creating half of the new jobs. As your Our House is renowned for its wisdom, and, of Lordships consider ways to increase this number, we course, it follows that there is a certain maturity of age might also consider the lessons of those Mancunian among our distinguished Members. With Jonathan, entrepreneurs. Innovation has to be embedded in our we have someone so young and yet with so much culture—it must be central to the national story. varied global experience which he will bring to bear This national culture of innovation so often provokes here, having worked as a venture capitalist, having false choices, either a constant flurry of well-intentioned been the chief executive of my noble friend Lord interventions or staying firmly out of the way. After Sachs’ Office of the Chief Rabbi and with his involvement all, say some, Thomas Edison did not need state aid to in the arts and in higher education. He may very well create the incandescent lamp—a lot of pluck and a have walked into one of our broom cupboards, but he little luck was all it took, so the argument goes. Yet an has certainly made a grand entrance today and we economic culture that produced innovators like Edison look forward to many future contributions. and others did not emerge by chance. Edison benefited I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for securing from a postal service, new roads, public libraries and a this crucial debate. Last week’s Budget had so much stable banking system. All these were the public goods that was music to the ears of the entrepreneurial that made innovation flourish and showed how economic community: encouraging start-ups; increasing the growth is built on a tapestry of skills, science, finance entrepreneurs’ relief limit; and the setting-up of enterprise and regulation all working in tandem. zones—and, let us not forget, had it not been for So often this interplay takes place where one might enterprise zones, we would not have Canary Wharf least expect it. Many of the high-tech entrepreneurs today. The support for apprenticeships is tremendous, that I have worked with in recent years took their although I am yet to be convinced about the university inspiration from Silicon Valley.The conventional wisdom technical colleges concept. StartUp Britain is terrific; is that, “There’s an economy entirely sustained by however, we must remember that, as the noble Lord, individuals”, and yet, subtle and intelligent public policy Lord Kestenbaum, referred to, and as Professor Colin is everywhere in Silicon Valley. Defence spending funded Mason has pointed out, 6 per cent of UK businesses a generation of microwave technology there that created with the highest growth rates generated half the new the foundations for the semiconductor industry; the jobs created by existing businesses. Professor Mason procurement strategies of DARPA kick-started hundreds tells us: of technology businesses. This combination of “The UK’s problem is the lack of high-growth firms”— technological talent, supportive public policy and effective the gazelles— financing mechanisms is at the heart of great innovation “which go on to be ‘companies of scale’, rather than not enough economies. start-ups. We need quality, not quantity”. This debate focuses quite rightly on the conditions The reduction in corporation taxes is great news, for economic growth, but perhaps I may make one but as the Chancellor said: final, wider observation. Growth as a public policy “high tax rates can do real damage … They crush enterprise, imperative can do much: it can create jobs; it can undermine aspiration and often undermine tax revenues”.—[Official reduce welfare dependency; it can over time help finance Report, 23/3/11; Commons, col. 957.] public services—it can do all these things at its best. Those were the Chancellor’s words. The sooner the But rapid economic growth simply for the relentless 50p tax rate is abolished, the more attractive Britain pursuit of wealth alone will do nothing for the long-term will be and, in fact, the tax take will go up. As for a health of our nation. Economies never measured progress property tax, this will take us back to the dark ages. by the yardstick of growth in isolation, but, rather, I hope that this idea will be quashed before it can even how that growth made for a better society. So this get off the ground. 1355 Economy: Growth[31 MARCH 2011] Economy: Growth 1356

I am president of the UK India Business Council, Our family knew that our time in Uganda was supported by UKTI. At our annual summit in Manchester limited, and in May of that year I moved to Britain, this month, the Indian High Commissioner, His Excellency working in a Wimpy bar. The following year, Idi Amin Nalin Surie, said of India: “Our growth is your expelled 30,000 Ugandan Asians, ordering them to opportunity”. Yet British business is scratching the leave within 90 days. They left behind a prosperous surface. We need to do much more to encourage past and walked towards an uncertain future. I would British business to go global, particularly to countries like to thank the Conservative Government then led such as India. by the late Sir Edward Heath, who, along with a number I have voiced my concern about the drastic cuts that of voluntary organisations, helped my fellow Ugandan the Government are making. Of course, we need to Asians in our hour of need. We have never forgotten make savings, but it is what you cut that matters, and this lifeline that we were given, and I am proud to say you do not have to cut everything. For example, cutting today, 39 years on, these very same people are some of so severely investment in higher education will really the most hard-working and patriotic in the country. harm this country. This, combined with a crude The powerful emotions that I feel today are simply immigration cap, is seriously hampering higher education explained. This country can boast that here, in Britain, and business. We need to encourage growth and to people in genuine need of refuge can find a safe home, keep investing in our infrastructure. live in peace and rebuild their lives. If that was not I have just returned from a business delegation enough, we were given the same rights as those who hosted by the Emirate of Dubai, and in spite of all the were born here, including the right to vote, which is a problems that that country has experienced recently in gift that we particularly cherish, yet that right is superseded terms of debt and a huge property crash, it is continuing by the privilege of joining your Lordships’ House. to benefit from the phenomenal investment in world-class From what I have witnessed in your Lordships’ House, infrastructure and becoming a world-class hub in the and what I have learnt during the last 40 years, Britain’s region as a result of that investment, attracting 10 million tolerance, decency, fairness and justice are its finest tourists a year as well as trillions of dollars investment qualities. It is testimony to the tolerance and generosity into Dubai. of this country that the Hindu community is explicit This year I graduated from my nine-year president’s in being proud to be British and proud to be Hindu, leadership programme at Harvard Business School— seeing no contradiction between the two. On the contrary, I suppose that I am a slow learner. My study group it is a mutual reinforcement. presented me with a wonderful book, The Rational I decided to take the title of Lord Popat, of Harrow, Optimist. Of course, I hope that they were referring to because for 30 years I have been a member and am me. With all Britain’s problems today—high inflation, now president of Harrow East Conservative Association. low growth, high unemployment, a giant deficit, huge My parents lived in Harrow and I see this as a tribute debt and far too high public spending—we are still to them, to whom I owe everything. My only regret is one of the most open economies in the world. We still that they are no longer here to share this with me. have so much of the best of the best in the world, be it Over the past 40 years, the Ugandan Asians who advanced engineering, higher education or science. came here as refugees have played a very successful Only this week it was announced that Britain is in the role in Britain’s economy and are now a central part of top three in the world in the publishing of science Britain’s economic fabric. After training as an accountant, papers—ahead of France and Germany. I bet that by I myself have run my own business—and this brings 2050, the giants of India and China will be the two me to the topic of today’s debate. The past decade of largest economies in the world, but I also bet that this government reminds me of President Reagan’s pointed tiny country will still be in the top 10. insight into the Government’s view of the economy: “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it 12.11 pm stops moving, subsidise it”. Lord Popat: My Lords, it is with a great sense of It is about time we broke this cycle. honour and privilege that I speak for the first time in Our difficulties are bank borrowing, a complicated your Lordships’ House. tax system, endless employments regulations and a I am grateful to all noble Lords, and to the staff of planning system recently described by the noble Lord, the House, who were particularly helpful in allowing Lord Wolfson, as glacial. Small businesses are responsible my Guru Moran i Bapu to witness my introductory for six out of 10 jobs in the UK. They are the engines ceremony in the Chamber. It is his teachings of truth, of economic growth, and last week’s Budget saw a series love and compassion that are the guiding principles of of welcome announcements, including the commitment my life. His presence was in itself an historic occasion, of no new regulations on firms with fewer than 10 staff as no Indian spiritual leader had ever attended this for three years, and the simplifications of the tax code. House to witness such a ceremony, and for me it was a This will help to create new jobs, growth and prosperity, great honour. and I look forward to doing all I can to assist the As some of you may know, I was born in Uganda Government in furthering this agenda. and came here at the age of 17 under very difficult circumstances. In January 1971, I accompanied my 12.16 pm father to drop my sister at Entebbe Airport, from where she was flying to study in the UK. At the stroke Lord Hamilton of Epsom: My Lords, we have heard of midnight, the army of Idi Amin, the then dictator two maiden speeches, which have gone to remind us all of Uganda, took control of the airport and ordered of the richness and variety of the membership of your all flights to be cancelled. Lordships’ House. We are very privileged to have with 1357 Economy: Growth[LORDS] Economy: Growth 1358

[LORD HAMILTON OF EPSOM] If we had gone ahead with the Darling Budget and us the noble Lord, Lord Kestenbaum, with his experience had done nothing to change it, we would now be of the Japanese and the US economy, which are two paying much higher interest rates than we are on our very different economies from our own. I think it is debt. That would merely roll forward the problems also true to say that he is extremely proud of his that we now have of increasing debt. This is one of the Jewish blood. We should pay tribute to the Jewish sadnesses that I have with the Budget which we have immigrants who come to our country, who have done just seen: we are watching the total amount of government so much to make it move forward and have shown so debt climb, in the OBR’s forecast, from £759 billion in much enterprise, which has made us the country we 2009-10 to £1,359 billion at the end of the Parliament. are today. I declare an interest as I have a certain I would like to see us repaying debt. It is very sad that amount of Jewish blood myself on both sides—but we are going to inflict this enormous burden of debt unfortunately not enough. on future generations. I also pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Popat. I spent a certain amount of time in east Africa, in 12.21 pm Kenya rather than Uganda, and I know the massive contribution that was made there by the Asian community. Lord Wood of Anfield: My Lords, it is a privilege to Of course, it was a tragedy for Uganda when Idi Amin be standing before you today. In particular, I am decided to kick it out. There was a terrible moment proud to be representing the cause and interests of here when we hesitated before actually agreeing to redheads from across the political spectrum. I pledge allow those Ugandan Asians to come to this country. to stand up for this minority in the years ahead. As an What a good thing we did. Uganda’s loss was certainly academic, my experience of public speaking has largely our gain. Once again, we benefited from incredibly been limited to university lecture halls. I was given entrepreneurial immigrants who played a very massive three tips by an academic colleague before my first role in the growth of our economy and the movement of lecture that I have obeyed religiously ever since. First, our enterprises. My noble friend is, indeed, very welcome always insert a joke just after halfway through to wake in our House, and we are very lucky to have him here. your audience up if they are in danger of falling I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, on asleep. Secondly, never distribute your hand-out before launching this debate. I was extremely glad, as my you begin speaking or else your audience will pick it noble friend Lord Newby was, that he raised the whole up, walk out and get a cup of coffee instead of issue of road pricing. Road pricing is certainly something listening to you. Thirdly, like Cicero, always make that should be embraced by our Government. It has your points in groups of three. This advice has stood the effect of actually getting motorists to contribute to me in good stead and I pledge to repeat this formula the costs of the driving which they do, but I can during my contributions to the House in the years understand why the Government are hesitant. The ahead. motoring community is certainly one that Governments I have felt not just a slight sense of awe but a great rather hesitate before they antagonise them. But I sense of humility since beginning my time on these think that this is the way forward, and I hope serious famous red Benches. That is in part because, as a consideration will be given to road pricing. We have to student and teacher of politics, I am acutely aware of be very brave if we are going to do it, and we have to the wisdom, distinction and contribution to Britain of price existing roads to pay for future roads. I totally generations of noble Lords who have come before me accept the noble Lord’s point that technology has now and served in this House, and in part because, at its moved on and has made this possible. best, I know that this House can provide an opportunity I would like to address the question of what I for scrutiny, reflection and collaboration in a political would describe as the phoney war about the whole system otherwise short of such qualities and a place business of deficit reduction. There is a concept being to speak up for those whose voices do not often get put forward by the shadow Chancellor, Ed Balls, that heard. somehow there is a rather easier way of addressing the I am also humbled by the fact that I am surrounded deficit. There is a suggestion from the Labour Party by many of the people, on all sides of this House, who that if by some extraordinary circumstance it had inspired me first to study, then teach and then practise actually won the last election it would have stayed with politics. I had a sense as a teenager that politics was, as the Budget of the former Chancellor, Alistair Darling. Tony Blair once said, I do not think there is the slightest chance of that “the place for the pursuit of noble causes”—[Official Report, happening whatsoever. If we had a Labour Government Commons, 27/6/07; col. 334.], today, in total or global terms their deficit reduction and could offer the possibility for ideas and collective plan would be very similar to the one that this Government action to change our country for the better. I believed are putting forward. If they had been in power Labour, it strongly during my time working for the former too, would have taken £6 billion-worth of savings in Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, to whom I will always the current year. It is a complete load of nonsense to be indebted and whose dedication to public service is suggest that there is somehow an easier way of second to none. I still believe it passionately and I approaching deficit reduction when the problems that hope my time in this House fuels rather than dims we have are so massive. The reason for that is that that optimism. Lastly, I thank noble Lords from all although Chancellors love to pretend that they are in sides of the House for their kindness, in particular total control of the economy, the bottom line is that my noble friends Lady Nye and Lord Kinnock for they are not. The people who have massive influence their encouragement, friendship, cups of tea and hand- on our economy are those in the markets. holding. 1359 Economy: Growth[31 MARCH 2011] Economy: Growth 1360

Growth is of course the necessary condition for Anfield. He comes to the House from a notable academic meeting the aspirations of the British people and and policy-advising background—Magdalen College funding the public services on which we all rely. My Oxford, then No. 10 Downing Street. He will bring to point today is that we should take this opportunity as our deliberations a much needed blend of theoretical a country, as we emerge from the international recession, rigour, practical experience and social passion. We got to move beyond a simple concern with what Keynes a flavour of all three in his maiden speech and it is called, certain that they will give distinction to his future “the growth of the cake”, contributions to our debates. I join other noble Lords as, in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for securing this debate. “the object of true religion”. In particular, we need to focus on three crucial aspects My proposition is quite simple: there is too little of economic growth. First, we need to aim not just for demand in the economy for robust growth, and the growth but for sustainable growth in which consumption Chancellor’s policy of taking demand out of the economy is based on rising living standards, not excessively is exactly the reverse of what is needed. The squeeze in dependent on borrowing; where business profits rise public spending seems bound to stay, but there are two as a result of investment and innovation, not simply ways in which we can try to increase growth in the through speculation; and where environmental economy despite the cuts. sustainability is built in rather than bolted on to the The first, referred to by the noble Lords, Lord business models of small and large firms alike. This is Hollick and Lord Newby, is to set up a national a long-term ambition. It cannot be achieved through a investment bank with a mandate to invest in green quick fix, and it requires thinking about how we projects, transport infrastructure, social housing and reshape our economy in quite fundamental ways. export-oriented SMEs. A limited fiscal commitment Secondly, we need to move on beyond the rather of, say, £10 billion over four years would allow the new stale polarity of laissez-faire on the one hand and the bank to spend, say, £100 billion over that period with demonisation of old-style corporatist industrial policy conservative gearing, provided that it was allowed to on the other, to work out not whether but how a borrow. That is the key point. The Chancellor has Government can provide secure foundations for long-term taken a small step in that direction by giving the growth and for raising productivity. Increasing the go-ahead to the green bank, but that will be allowed to value of what we produce demands an intelligent role spend only £3 billion and it cannot borrow until 2015, for government intervention: to stimulate greater and even then only if the Government’s debt reduction innovation, modernise our infrastructure and ensure target is being met, which I doubt will be the case. The that our banks serve the investment and research Chancellor has lost a big opportunity to scale up the needs of companies as well as they serve the short-term original idea. A principal merit of my scheme is that a interests of their shareholders. national investment bank could create a new class of Thirdly, alongside our determination to restore growth, bonds, long term but with a slightly higher yield than we must have equal determination to ensure that the gilts, which would suit long-term investors. It would proceeds of growth are enjoyed by the many, not the thus be a way of mobilising pension funds for investment few. This is not the case at the moment and has not in the long-term future of our economy. been for a while. In 1979, the top 1 per cent received My second point is that we need to rebalance the under 6 per cent of Britain’s personal income; in 2005 economy away from financial services towards high-value they received over 14 per cent. For the last 30 years, manufacturing and creative services, two things mentioned 22 per cent of every extra pound earned has gone into by previous speakers. The banks have a key role to the pockets of the top 1 per cent. Since the global play in this, but for that we need radical banking recovery from the financial crisis began, real wages in reform. That has scarcely been started. I therefore the USA have increased by $168 billion and in Germany support Mervyn King’s championing of a British Glass- by ¤36 billion, but in Britain real wages have actually Steagall Act to split the banking system into commercial fallen while profits have risen by £14 billion. and investment banks. We need to avoid like the In the United States a debate is raging about how plague repeating the situation when the core commercial growth can raise living standards for all, and whether banks were so riddled with bad bets foisted on them it is globalisation, technological change, the competition by their investment-banking masters that they ran out for talent or political choice that is behind the increasing of money to lend to households and businesses—the polarisation of rewards. In Britain that debate is only very people requiring support in a recession. That is starting now but is long overdue. I hope that noble quite apart from the enormous loans and debts with Lords agree with me that it is a subject to which we which they have saddled the taxpayer. should devote some time in this House in the coming This is not just a matter of rebalancing British months and years, because doing our utmost to ensure banking to serve the needs of the economy; it is a that economic growth is not only strong and secure matter of rebalancing power in the economy to serve but shared widely is surely among the first duties of the needs of the British people. As things stand, the those who govern Britain. banks are the permanent government of the country, whichever party is in power. Unless we can break their 12.26 pm power, I fear that all that issues from our political Lord Skidelsky: My Lords, I listened with great processes and what we are saying in this House today interest, as I am sure we all did, to the attractive will be a lot of, maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Wood of “sound and fury, signifying nothing”. 1361 Economy: Growth[LORDS] Economy: Growth 1362

12.30 pm real own goal. Market reports consistently say that employers prefer to recruit graduates who have spent Baroness Coussins: My Lords, the recent White time living abroad as part of their course, whether Paper Trade and Investment for Growth contains one they are linguists, engineers, lawyers or anything else. fleeting mention of the shortage of language skills. I declare an interest as chair of the All-Party Parliamentary It is ironic that we should have such a problem Group on Modern Languages and urge the Government with languages when we have a hugely multilingual to strengthen their strategy by improving the UK’s population. We should make more of this. Companies language competence. None of the overarching objectives considering where to locate regard the availability of can be fully achieved without it. language skills as absolutely essential. The message about London’s linguistic diversity as an asset for UK companies do not seem to understand that the attracting inward investment needs to be heard more lack of language skills is an important barrier to loudly and proudly. growth. A survey in 2010 found that, across Europe, 33 per cent of businesses regard foreign language skills Finally, is the Minister aware of the EU report on as “very important” when recruiting graduates, but the language industry itself, which is set to double in the figure for the UK was only 5 per cent, with value to ¤16.5 billion by 2015? The report sets out three-quarters of UK companies saying that they were ways for businesses, especially SMEs, to benefit from “not at all important”. Can the Minister say what the multilingual competence. Will the Minister encourage Government can do to encourage businesses to invest British businesses to take advantage of this potential in language training and to develop a better understanding for growth? of the benefits of language skills? We know that export businesses that proactively use language skills and the cultural knowledge that goes with them achieve 12.35 pm on average 45 per cent more sales. Other research Viscount Eccles: My Lords, I am left wishing that I suggests that improving language skills could add up spoke more languages than I do. to £21 billion a year to the UK economy. That politics and sustainable economic growth are Another figure worth quoting, given the explosion uneasy partners comes out of this debate very strongly. in online sales, is that over 70 per cent of consumers They do not fit well together. As the noble Lord, Lord require information in their native language in order Hollick, who introduced this debate, said: to make an online purchase, while people who do not “Much is promised, but little is delivered”. have good English are six times less likely to buy from As the noble Lord, Lord Kestenbaum, said, innovation an English-only site. It is self-defeating and inaccurate has been and remains the key to the advance of to think that English is enough. Only 6 per cent of the science and technology. Of course, Governments are world’s population are native English speakers and always behind the curve. They do not keep up with the 75 per cent speak no English at all. The relative front line of innovation. The noble Lord, Lord Hollick, amount of internet content in English is declining but took us back to Neddy, the late Lord George-Brown that in Chinese is rising and there are more blogs in and 265 million tonnes of coal, if I remember rightly. Japanese than in English. At the time, I was working for a medium-sized Neither is English enough in the world of scientific business that made pithead gear, mine car circuits, research, which will inform commercial innovation. In skip-winding plants and coal washery plants. We made China, there are 4,600 scientific journals, only 186 of a lot of them. I suspect that the average life of those which are published in English. Employers in the UK plants as against the predicted and perfectly feasible who are ahead of the game know that they do not just life would not be better than half. They went out of need people who can speak French and German, commission one after another when they were still in although these remain the most sought-after languages. totally good working order. As the noble Lord, Lord Mandarin or Cantonese come next. With markets Sugar, reminded us in an interesting speech a week opening up in central Asia, Latin America and the Far ago, Governments are really only good at scene setting. East, employers also need Spanish, Russian and Arabic. We need good technical education, as the noble Lord, If our school leavers and graduates are not able to Lord Newby, said, good roads, as the noble Lord, offer these skills, employers will recruit overseas. Lord Hamilton, said, and low taxes, but please keep Sadly, our young people have less and less to offer out of the clockwork. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord in the way of language skills. Urgent interdepartmental Sugar, said that Governments should always keep out work is needed between the Treasury, BIS and the of the clockwork because they do not understand the Department for Education to make sure that the review front line; they have never been in the front line, he of the national curriculum results in a better outcome said. That may be going a little bit far. for languages. Most state school pupils study no languages I was allegedly in command of a steel foundry in after the age of 14 and an OECD survey put Britain Stockton-on-Tees, where I was given good tips on joint bottom of a league table of 39 countries in the which horse was going to win that afternoon. I was a developed world for the amount of lesson time spent part-time marriage counsellor. Steel foundries are quite on languages. This really is an important barrier to dangerous. We used to take the factory inspector as our potential for growth. close to the furnace as we could in order to minimise I ask the Minister also to speak to his colleagues in his visits. We did not have a serious hospital-type BIS to ensure that a further barrier is not created by accident for the whole time I was there. The workforce abolishing the fee waiver for students spending a year kept me out of danger much more than I did them. As abroad as part of their degree. This really would be a the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, said, we have arrived at a 1363 Economy: Growth[31 MARCH 2011] Economy: Growth 1364 dependency culture, which means that we think that forgotten. I am further concerned that amid all the everybody else should solve our problems and perhaps talk of rolling back red tape, we must be very careful we should not solve them ourselves. that we do not also roll back those 30 years of progress That leads me, finally, to a health warning. The through politics and forget that politics is the personal. Government offer a lot of schemes. Governments I know that my mother would have been very proud always have. They say: “If you do this, you will get this if she could have been here today to hear me speak. grant at the end of the process”. I have suffered from Her struggle then is the struggle of thousands of these schemes for many years, but they never include a working women now who support their families and health warning. The health warning should say: “Please grow the economy. If we make it harder for them to remember that when you apply for a government-based work, and drive down the economy, we will only make grant it is coming out of public money. It has come it harder on ourselves. I hope that noble Lords will from the taxpayer and must be handled very carefully. take these points on board. You should calculate the amount and cost of time that Finally, I, too, thank my noble friend Lord Hollick it will take you to apply. When you have done that, for making this debate possible. double it”. 12.39 pm 12.44 pm Lord Collins of Highbury: My Lords, first, I thank Baroness Prosser: My Lords, it gives me great pleasure the officials and staff for such a warm introduction to to welcome my noble friend Lord Collins of Highbury this House. Not only did they make me feel extremely to this House on the day of his maiden speech. I am welcome, they made my husband, Rafael, feel extremely one of the “Margarets” to whom he referred. I first welcome to. Rafael has put up with me working very met my noble friend in the 1980s when I came to the long hours for a very long time, first for the union Transport and General Workers’ Union as a paid Unite and then for the Labour Party. He thought that organiser—in retrospect, a naive newcomer—experienced things would change when I took my seat here. Your in local politics, which I quickly learnt did not equip Lordships can therefore imagine his surprise when I me well to deal with the internal macho politics of the said that my Whip would require me to be here all trade union movement. night. Yes, it did take a lot of explaining. My noble friend helped me find the right path. He Secondly, I thank your Lordships, not least for the was junior to me but he was an operator who knew fact that I am able to say “my husband”. These just what was going on both nationally and regionally, Benches have helped transform my life and the lives of and certainly who was doing what in central office. He countless other lesbian and gay people in this country. knew the union rule book inside out and backwards I am immensely pleased that it is no longer just noble and he made himself indispensable to the then and friends on one side of this House who applaud progress subsequent general secretaries. We became firm friends in this area but noble Lords on every side of the and I learnt of his kindness, his commitment to what Chamber. That consensus is a sign of this House at its is right and his generosity of spirit. He supported me best. during my year as president of the TUC, travelling I am greatly indebted to my sponsors, the noble with me at home and abroad, making sure that I spoke Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Prosser. Like myself, to the right people and steering me clear of those my noble friends—the “Margarets”—are products of deemed best avoided. Our close friendship and constant the trade union movement. It was the Transport and companionship at union events led to us being known General Workers’ Union—now Unite—which enabled in the T&G as “Victoria and Albert”. Both my noble me to leave its employment temporarily to attend friend and I moved on up the union hierarchy, working university.My union provided me with many opportunities closely with our then general secretary, Bill, now the that I would not otherwise have had. I hope that noble noble Lord, Lord Morris of Handsworth. Our leadership Lords on the government Benches look to the trade of the T&G marked a particular high point in the unions when seeking inspiration for their big society. union’s recognition of its diverse membership with a It was my own experiences as a child that drew me black general secretary, a woman deputy general secretary to politics, as I imagine was the case with many of my and a gay assistant general secretary. I often thought noble friends. The death of my father meant that my that if the old GLC had still been in existence, we mother was faced with the loss of her husband, her would have been given a grant. I was immensely proud home and her livelihood in short succession. She was when my noble friend was appointed general secretary determined to provide for her children and her hard of the Labour Party.He has devoted energy, commitment work and resolve secured our future. Yet my mother and political skill. I trust that he will be well remembered would have been the first to acknowledge that things for it. might have turned out very differently had it not been Turning to the subject matter at hand, I, too, thank for the progress achieved through politics. It was the my noble friend Lord Hollick for placing this debate Equal Pay Act that transformed my family’s income on the agenda today. I want to concentrate my remarks and provided a level playing field for women like my on the positive impact on economic growth made by mother. It was changes in the law that gave my mother government investment in the training and upskilling protection from exploitation and it was changes in the of the workforce. In particular, I draw attention to the law that enabled her to become an economically active Women and Work Sector Pathways Initiative, a skills individual rather than being dependent on the state. programme designed to help alleviate the estimated The politics is the personal and in the necessary task loss to the economy of between £15 billion and to reduce the deficit my fear is that this has been £23 billion per year through the underuse of women’s 1365 Economy: Growth[LORDS] Economy: Growth 1366

[BARONESS PROSSER] The problem is that the alternative is a bigger skills and capacity. This is the figure quoted in the gamble still. It was right in 2008 to allow a rise in Women and Work Commission report launched in public borrowing to restore growth and avoid a calamitous March 2006, which persuaded the then Chancellor of rise in unemployment, but the second highest deficit in the Exchequer to allocate dedicated funds to help the OECD must now be corrected. No one yet knows rectify the situation. The programme commenced in how public spending cuts will affect them, and this is mid-2006 and continues to this very day—the last of creating uncertainty in the economy. That is one of the the financial year 2011. During this time, more than principal reasons to get on with consolidating the 23,000 women have benefited from training, retraining public finances rather than dragging out the process or upskilling. Investment in the scheme by the Government over two Parliaments. People will always assume the up to the year end March 2010 has been just over worst until it is done. For some it will be painful, but £14 million, superseded by the employers’ contribution for many it will not be as bad as they anticipated. over the same period of just over £20 million in cash Consumer spending will be weak in the coming year, and in kind. but all attempts to promote growth on mounting The programme is under the umbrella of UKCES consumer debt will end in tears. It is business investment and delivered by participating sector skills councils. and exports that must provide the impetus. Over the past year, 13 sector skills councils ran There are encouraging signs. The economy is already 14 programmes, including land-based skills, textile two-paced. Despite the understandable gloom in areas and fashion, PSV driving, construction management, where public spending is strong, manufacturing and financial services, tourism, and so on. The aim of the exports have prospects and growth that they have not scheme is to target women in sectors where they are experienced in a decade. We want to get other businesses underrepresented or where there are skills shortages. out of the mentality of cost cutting to maintain profit The UKCES has commissioned Leeds Met University margins and to now start planning for growth. to evaluate the programme and in its latest report, The actions of the banks are one of the keys to future which covers April 2009 to March 2010, the writers growth. I think that we all have doubts about whether expressed concern that the economic downturn may they will respond when the country needs them, but if have had an adverse impact on employers’ willingness we are to get the uplift in business investment that we to engage in training. This was not, however, the case need, they must lend more to business and particularly and employers and participants alike have again expressed to SMEs, because they are their only source of capital high levels of satisfaction. Some 92 per cent said that and finance. The Government’s dominant shareholdings they would like the programme to continue and 85 per in the banking sector must be used to set targets for the cent of participants said that they would like to continue lending that the country can reasonably expect from with further training. Only 7 per cent of employers the banks. The lack of borrowing capacity in the green said that participation entailed too much paperwork bank was a principal disappointment in the Budget, or bureaucracy. as the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, highlighted. So here we have a successful training scheme, described The other key requirement is to achieve stability in in glowing terms by employers and participants alike, the outlook for interest rates. Any move upwards must capturing more than 5,000 women per year, costing be avoided now, but at some later stage it will be better less than a measly £5 million per year—and what does to have the certainty of a modest, gradual and inevitable the Minister do? He decides to merge the scheme into move upwards, rather than to have consumers and a general scheme entitled the Employer Investment businesses fearing the worst. The economy always Fund. The women’s programme will continue until takes longer to respond and policy-makers hope. It the autumn, while the other aspects of the new scheme takes time to change direction. However, we must be get sorted out and organised. Of course I desperately patient and hold our course. As uncertainty lifts, the hope that the new arrangements prove as successful as economy will start to pick up. those of the past five years. Of course I desperately hope that women workers will not yet again be dropped to the bottom of the agenda—but I am not holding 12.54 pm my breath. I thank noble Lords and emphasise that Baroness Worthington: My Lords, it is a great privilege these are all essential ingredients to a financially healthy to stand before you today to give my maiden speech. I scheme. will begin by thanking my sponsors, my noble friends Lord Eatwell and Lord Bassam of Brighton, and my 12.50 pm mentor, my noble friend Lord Puttnam. I also extend Lord Stoneham of Droxford: My Lords, I congratulate my gratitude to all the staff of the House who have the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, on initiating this debate, made me and my baby son feel very welcome. My and the maiden speakers on their first speeches in the elevation coincided almost exactly with my becoming House. It is a gamble to deal with the structural deficit a mother—in effect, two life sentences in one week. I in one Parliament, and to do it primarily by public am most grateful for the tolerance and patience that spending reductions. However, the strategy has already everyone has shown towards me as I try to balance had one major success in reassuring the bond markets these two important new roles. I am grateful to my so that the UK can borrow more cheaply than countries noble friend Lord Hollick for tabling an important with lower deficits. Tight fiscal policy, combined with debate as it allows me the opportunity to offer some easy monetary policy and a competitive exchange rate, thoughts on the issue I know most about: the need to provides the best choice for avoiding a sovereign debt tackle global climate change with sustainable economic crisis while ensuring acceptable increases in growth. policy. 1367 Economy: Growth[31 MARCH 2011] Economy: Growth 1368

Climate change is the political and moral challenge have said, has its hands tied. The carbon floor price is of our time. Each year brings fresh evidence of the merely an expensive way to deliver no environmental consequences of gambling with our planet’s atmosphere. impact, with no guarantees that anything will be built. Future generations will judge us on how we act on this Under the previous Government, an investment of issue more than on any other. To date, sadly, our just over £20 million secured jobs in an electric car progress has been too slow. In preparing this speech, I manufacturing plant in Sunderland. I am sad to say looked back through Hansard and was interested to that the scheme that enabled that investment no longer see that in March 1991, a week after the Budget had exists. been published, the House held a debate on global I am conscious that time today is limited. There are warming. A great deal has changed since then, but many issues relating to climate change and energy that sadly some concerns expressed by noble Lords two I hope I can return to in subsequent debates. We need decades ago are still very pertinent today. to have a deep debate about the role of nuclear power. The good news is that in 2011 our economy is less The recent terrible events in Japan remind us of the reliant than it once was on the burning of fossil fuels. risks inherent in a technology that was developed The carbon intensity of our economy has steadily primarily for Cold War military application. A civilian fallen. The bad news is that this has not necessarily nuclear programme based on inherently safer, thorium- been done deliberately: it is largely due to a decline in fuelled reactors could engender a paradigm shift in our heavy industries and manufacturing, and to the how we view nuclear power. dash for gas. To consciously reduce emissions is a Britain has a history of delivering industrial revolution. much harder thing to achieve, as we have discovered in This revolution towards a sustainable, low-carbon a succession of well meaning but largely ineffectual economy will not be easy; it will involve countering a climate change policies throughout the 1990s and large number of powerful opposing forces and vested 2000s. This is why, when I worked at Friends of the interests. However, as Archimedes once remarked, “Give Earth, I felt that we needed a new legal framework to me the right place to stand and I can move mountains”. begin the process of decarbonising our economy. I hope that in this Chamber, I am standing in the right Having set up the campaign for new climate laws, I place and that, together, we can move mountains. left Friends of the Earth to join energy company Scottish and Southern—poacher turned gamekeeper, 12.59 pm if you will. There I was fortunate to work closely with the CEO, Ian Marchant, who was a great inspiration. Lord Broers: My Lords, we have had a series of My recruitment was his idea and I think that his outstanding maiden speeches in this debate, and it is intention was to shake things up a bit—both his my privilege and pleasure to thank the noble Baroness, organisation and my own preconceptions. Until that Lady Worthington, and to congratulate her on a truly point I had campaigned to shut down dirty, old, excellent maiden speech. She brings to this House a coal-fired power stations, two of which Scottish and wealth of knowledge on climate change matters, as she Southern owned. I still believe that we need to shut has clearly demonstrated. She has worked on these down our old coal, but I now have a lot more respect crucial issues with the energy industry, advising Scottish for the men and women who work tirelessly to keep and Southern Energy. She then brought her expertise the lights on. Our task is to ensure that they can to government, working on the Climate Change Act, continue to do so without a negative impact on the and she helped the Government in their campaign to environment. inform the public about the importance of these issues. Her contributions to public understanding have been While at Scottish and Southern, I was seconded to noteworthy, and I know that we all look forward to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural her helping this House deal with, for example, the Affairs. There I was able to view life through yet complexities of carbon trading and the EU Emissions another prism and came to better understand the Trading Scheme, not to mention the green investment process of government. I became part of the team bank. We welcome her warmly. tasked with drafting the Climate Change Bill. When the Act entered the statute book in 2008 it was a world I was pleased to find in the Budget some real, if first, committing the UK to delivering emissions cuts insufficient, attempts to tackle the major issues that of 80 per cent by 2050 using a series of successive confront us—those of low productivity, lack of spending carbon budgets. on R&D by industry, out-of-date and inefficient infrastructure, and expensive financing. Many have With a climate Act in place, what has changed since said that we must restore our industrial base and our 1991? The only mention of the environment in the infrastructure. Budget Statement of the then Chancellor, now the I start with infrastructure. I regard banking as just noble Lord, Lord Lamont, was in relation to an another element of infrastructure. As with housing, increase in fuel duty; yet 20 years of high fuel taxation energy and transport, it should be efficient and low has proved only that it is very difficult to price people cost, and I fail to see how this is consistent with banks and goods off the roads unless there is an affordable seeking profits of the order of 20 per cent or more. alternative. Would we be happy if our rail operators made similar Last week’s Budget at least contained a few more profits? Where our banks are operating overseas, it references to climate change, but it was still a long way might be justified on the basis that their practices from being a green Budget. Fuel duty was frozen, but contribute to the current account, but here they should with no clear plan for weaning us of our addiction to be taking professionally calculated risks on industrial oil. The green investment bank, as previous speakers initiatives rather than gambling on obscure hedging 1369 Economy: Growth[LORDS] Economy: Growth 1370

[LORD BROERS] 1.05 pm instruments. I totally support Mervyn King in his Lord Bhattacharyya: My Lords, I join those who attempts to separate these issues but I do not find have thanked my noble friend Lord Hollick for securing much in the Budget to assure me that they will do so. this debate. I also support the remarks about the I join others in pointing out that we need to increase excellent maiden speeches that we have heard. our manufacturing output. Our deficit in manufactured goods remains at about £50 billion. It is encouraging As the director of Warwick Manufacturing Group, that manufacturing is now growing at 12 per cent, but I declare an interest as a professor of engineering and at this rate it will still take 15 to 20 years to recover as someone who has worked for 40 years in the field of what we have lost in the past 12 years. Coutts and manufacturing here and abroad. I am also a long-time Rowthorn have pointed out that an increase of only student of the gap between speeches and the shop floor. 10 per cent in manufactured exports, combined with a The Chancellor’s Budget speech referred to a “march 10 per cent fall in manufactured imports, would generate of the makers”. Apprenticeships, the UTCs, extending a £45 billion improvement in the current account the Enterprise Investment Scheme, the Manufacturing balance, which is equal to the total UK net earnings Advisory Service and the green investment bank are from financial services and insurance and more than some worthwhile modifications of programmes set up one and a half times that contributed by all other under the Labour Government. They are welcome but services. To do this, we need more competitive products, the “makers” have heard fine words before and have and to create these we need a broad spectrum of been let down. The devil is in the detail and in how creative engineering. things are implemented. Sadly, we have never been The good news is the Government’s acceptance of good at that in the United Kingdom. We do not want Hermann Hauser’s technology innovation centres but, a repeat of the “white heat of technology”, which in if these are to succeed, industry must concentrate its the 1960s promised much but delivered little. R&D resources in them, as do the Germans. The Today, manufacturing is enjoying a surge in exports enhancement of the enterprise investment schemes are and profits, driven by exchange rate gains, increased also good news. They will stimulate the formation of competitiveness and sticky wages. Quite a lot of that new companies and appropriately reward our courageous comes from inward investment, some of which I have and professional venture capitalists and angels. been privileged to bring in myself. However, there are The overall problem of course is much larger than major issues to be addressed if this growth is to be can be resolved with the TICs and by new start-ups. sustained. In the 1950s, British gross capital formation Overall spending on R&D must be increased. At was a little over half that of Germany and Japan. It 1.8 per cent of GDP, our spend is 40 per cent lower stood at 16 per cent of GDP. Today, capital formation than that of the US, 30 per cent lower than that of is 15 per cent of GDP—still significantly below our Germany and 20 per cent lower than that of France. main competitors. In 2009, as the noble Lord, Lord Our situation is unbalanced. We have a science budget Broers, said, UK investment in R&D shrank both in of £4.6 billion, which supports a science base that is cash and real terms. Business R&D fell significantly. second only to that of the US and is our greatest asset, There was a recovery in 2010, but by the final quarter but this is not matched by our spending on development, we were flat-lining again. which should be several times higher. The TSB is We need better incentives for the private sector to doing a brave job with its budget of roughly half a invest in developing improved products and systems. billion but the rest must come from the private sector, While the R&D tax credit changes are useful, the which does not seem to be happening. reductions to capital allowances work in the opposite The reduction in corporation tax will help, as will direction. Further, the research funding system is so the progressive increases in R&D tax credit, but why is complex and distant from commercial reality that the change in R&D tax credit restricted to SMEs? many small companies get little advantage from Only the large companies can mount the prime participating in R&D programmes. In this House, we manufacturing projects that we desperately need, and have debated impact many times and, while I agree it is the large companies that sustain the SMEs. I ask that evaluation based on commercial impact is not the Minister to explain the Government’s thinking right for all subjects, in applied sciences and engineering on this. it is surely essential. We have a great opportunity to increase manufacturing Why do we need such commercial clarity? We need output by building our new energy and transport it because, although manufacturing is fashionable today, systems. However, sadly, much of this may come from experience tells us that existing schemes and centres overseas. There is hope that these foreign-owned will stick a “manufacturing” badge on their projects to companies will manufacture those systems in the UK, secure funds without delivering what we need. We but surely it would be better if, to take the words of the need clarity on impact to prevent that. Indeed, we are Chancellor in concluding his Budget speech, more of already seeing the bizarre situation of projects trying it carried the labels: to secure funding from government and talking about “‘Made in Britain’, ‘Created in Britain’, ‘Designed in Britain’ a 15-year strategy before being sustainable and delivering and ‘Invented in Britain’”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/3/11; commercial impact. That is far too long. However, col. 966.] many good things have happened. I agree with the These are courageous words but it will take more than noble Lord, Lord Newby, about what the Technology the changes in the Budget if we are to succeed in doing Strategy Board does when it comes to technology and this. I ask the Minister to reassure us that there is more innovation strategy. However, it does not have much to come. money. If it were doubled or tripled, it would still be a 1371 Economy: Growth[31 MARCH 2011] Economy: Growth 1372 minuscule amount compared with what is needed—it These are extraordinary times and the crisis is not is at the front end of all our approaches to the yet finished, as we can see in the Republic of Ireland manufacturing industry. The perennial problem of today. It has had its bailout but almost all Irish banks underinvestment is exacerbated by the inability of will be nationalised today as a result of it. The crisis is business to obtain finance. still working its way out in Europe—in Greece and I do not want to repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Portugal. Given the crucial importance of the European Skidelsky, said regarding an investment bank, but it market for our exports, the Government need to be would be dishonest of me to say that the Budget was careful in their attitude to possible future bailouts. If bad for manufacturing. However, if we are to succeed, they do not engage in this process, that will further we need more than a splash of fuel. We need to risk reinforcing the divisions with those both within supercharge the engine. Time will tell whether this and without the currency. There is no doubt that there Government’s deeds match their words. will be implications for our foreign policy, which is very sensitive to the Government as we stand today. 1.10 pm Extraordinary times demand extraordinary measures. I would not be advocating, as others have done, an Lord McFall of Alcluith: My Lords, I thank the investment bank had it not been for extraordinary noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for securing such a vital times. I called for the very same in a Guardian article, debate today and congratulate all the maiden speakers “Britain needs a state bank”, on 9 January 2009. on such excellent speeches. I wish them well in their Sadly, the Government at the time did not take that journey in the House of Lords. up, but it is very important if these objectives to Growth is essential to reducing the public debt growth are to be attained. If there is a European ratio. Cutting the deficit without that being accompanied investment bank, why cannot there be a UK investment by strong growth will end up in disaster. Let us remind bank? If we have a network of post offices throughout ourselves of the Labour Government in 1997. From the country, why cannot the post office network be 1997 until 2002, the Labour Government stuck to the used to ensure that the Government achieve their Conservative spending targets and the UK net debt ambitious lending targets? fell from 42 per cent of GDP to 29 per cent of GDP. Today the Government are offering cheap finance. They did that precisely by growing the economy, not If we ensure that the debt is indexed, finance can be just by cutting spending alone. There are economic done at 1 per cent and we need only get money back growth policies consistent with debt stabilisation but to service the debt. Mention has already been made the problem for this Government is that they have about the attitude of the Treasury to public investment. scared the population witless with their austerity message. The HMT approach to public investment needs revisiting. “Vote for us and death tomorrow” is not a good Given the big gamble, the Government need to show slogan, so they will need to change. They realise now boldness, as my noble friend Lord Hollick said, and that there has to be a different mantra. They have to not timidity. We need policies that are consistent with give people some hope and something to look forward these ambitious targets and I suggest that one beneficial to. step would be to change the slogan from “Cuts, cuts, The recent Budget, as people have indicated, is a cuts” to “Investment, investment, investment”. big gamble because it is taking more than £100 billion out of the economy and, at the same time, there is an Baroness Warsi: My Lords, I remind the House that ambitious 3 per cent growth target by 2015. That can when the clock hits “4”, four minutes are up. be done only by investment. We need investment in our communities, our infrastructure and most of all in 1.15 pm our people. Let us remind ourselves of the lessons of the 1980s. If the slack in the economy persists for too Baroness Greenfield: I thank the noble Lord, Lord long unemployment becomes structural. That is why Hollick, for the opportunity to discuss this wide-ranging we need investment today. topic. As a neuroscientist at Oxford and Chancellor of Heriot-Watt, I shall focus on innovation in universities The Labour Government left some good legacies by considering four bottlenecks along with some examples for this Government—some positives on which they of how we might deal with them. should build. For example, the labour market performance is better than in previous recessions, although Bottleneck one is the limited talent pool of young unemployment is now going up for both young people scientists forming the next generation of researchers. and the population in general. Company liquidations Currently only 16 per cent of A-level candidates opt and home repossessions are fewer than they were in for one or more science subjects, so how can we sell previous recessions and the large depreciation in the science effectively to bright sixth formers? Just one currency has most certainly helped drive the export idea could be a twinning scheme where graduate students market. We are in an environment of historically low sign up for an ongoing relationship with a local school, interest rates and it would be folly to disturb that in thereby themselves gaining invaluable experience. The the present climate. We need to exploit the relative continuing mentoring that could ensue, as well as price changes and complement these policies by making work experience in the twinned lab, might completely use of the low interest rate environment and by transform the career plans of a 16 year-old. complementing behavioural changes induced by the Bottleneck two is the diminishing talent pool resulting increased oil prices to promote a low carbon economy. from the sub-optimal retention of women in science. We must also ensure that we maximise the boost to One crucial issue here is the conflict of pregnancy and tradables by the fall, or depreciation, in the currency. its aftermath with the demands of a highly competitive 1373 Economy: Growth[LORDS] Economy: Growth 1374

[BARONESS GREENFIELD] particles, when it was developed at the beginning of research career. Returner schemes, such as those pioneered last century, seemed to be a highly abstract notion. by the Daphne Jackson Trust, would ring-fence funds Now, however, this improbable theorising has led to for fellowships for anyone who had taken time off lasers, transistors and modern computers, as well as from research for primary childcare responsibilities. an understanding of molecular bonds and X-ray However, only the Government could have the resources crystallography without which modern molecular biology to roll out a returner fellowship competition to an would not be possible. To those four bottlenecks, there extent that would make a real national impact. are no easy answers, but those are at least some Bottleneck three is the lack of a cohesive strategy suggestions for unblocking them. for optimising translational research. Universities generally have limited patent budgets, which can force technology 1.20 pm transfer offices to form spin-out companies too early so that a very high proportion fail and patent applications Lord Soley: My Lords, I echo the congratulations may be dropped before any value can be realised to the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, on securing this through licensing. Meanwhile, investors are often wary wide-ranging debate, and welcome the excellent maiden of a technology that the scientists are unable to explain speeches, which are a good indication for the future of to them in terms that they can understand. Such this House. investors may also view the work as: too high risk; at I want to focus my very limited time on the importance too early a stage; too little, given the funding required, of aerospace and aviation policy. I have a straight to give a good return; or having a burn rate that is too request to the Government: please get an aviation high and exits that are not obvious. policy. I do not accept what the Secretary of State said One possibility around these cultural minefields in his letter published in the Times yesterday, in response could be to set up venture capital syndicates that do to wide-ranging comments in the Times from many not invest as such but give some private sector grants. businessmen and from the City of London that if we Modest but highly timely amounts of money could be do not attempt to protect our premier hub airport we awarded, with the financial burden diluted by the will diminish in importance. collective membership. In return, however, each individual I should say at this stage that I no longer have an member of the syndicate would have privileged access interest to declare, because I am no longer campaign to the research as it was developed and therefore first director of Future Heathrow. Believe me, everyone in refusal to purchase the IP and perhaps develop the this country has an interest in preserving a premier spin-out as and when the work matured and as and hub airport for Britain. We are the only country in when people felt personally that the time was right. continental Europe and among the emerging nations The notion of private sector grants is not in the of Brazil, India, China and others which has not national culture of either academics or, indeed a venture either already expanded or is expanding its airports, capitalist, so the Government could be perfectly positioned particularly hub airports. Hub airports are the way the not to contribute financially but rather to act as a kind global economy interconnects. It is the way that the of co-ordinating broker. European economy is connected. It is the way that Bottleneck four lies in the current attitudes of non- investment decisions are made about where you can translational but potentially highly innovative basic meet. research. Surely for originality to flourish we first need In the limited time available, let me give one or two to let a thousand flowers bloom, but the current peer simple facts to the House. A few years back, Heathrow review process is open to criticism—especially and could fly you to 240 destinations worldwide. Now it is typically when money is tight—of being risk averse. In 180, and the airport is full. Frankfurt can fly you to addition, currently only 10 to 15 per cent of research 307. Frankfurt sits in the middle of the largest, richest council grants are successful. Let us assume that that market in the world and can fly you to 307 destinations. does not mean that some 90 per cent of British academics What is its pitch in China, India, Brazil and everywhere are simply poor scientists. A very heretical, yet perhaps else? Come to Frankfurt for your investment decisions effective, change might be to abolish the peer review and we can fly you on to wherever else you need to go. system and research councils altogether and divide the This Minister, more than any other, will know that available funds along with the vast sums saved from Frankfurt has a burgeoning financial sector. London the bureaucracy equally between eligible scientists. Of does not have to have the only and premier financial course, there would need to be careful thought as to sector in Europe, and we will not do if we continue to where the boundary conditions of eligibility were set, hand the business over to Frankfurt. When the chief along with potential penalty measures. executive of Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam heard It would be a fascinating paper exercise at least, to about the British Government’s recent decision not to see how much money would be immediately available have any expansion of airports anywhere in the south-east, to each scientist to explore their particular scientific the response was the same as before: “Good news for challenge, unencumbered by insecurity or lengthy futile Schiphol; bad news for London”. Schiphol will fly you applications. Given breathing space, scientists could to 21 British regional cities; Heathrow will fly you to once again truly maximise original thinking and regain seven. the confidence for developing innovative theories that This is not an argument about the environment. challenge existing dogma. Why would such an intellectual I yield to no one in my concern about climate change—I nirvana help the more practical issues that we are wrote my first article about it back in 1981—but I do debating today? Bear in mind the fact that quantum not believe and never have believed that you can solve theory concerning the inseparable nature of waves and the problem of climate change by hairshirt policies 1375 Economy: Growth[31 MARCH 2011] Economy: Growth 1376 such as telling people, as the Government recently did, I know that such comparisons are dangerous. Many that they want to decrease the demand for flying. We of those migrant workers did not have families so were have to be cleverer about it. I have been telling the freely available without other commitments. Also, many aviation industry for a considerable time that it needs were highly skilled, so businesses did not need to pay to sharpen up its act in conveying the message. Frankfurt to train them. Nevertheless, there is some truth in the has reduced its CO2 emissions below its level in 2004, anecdotal stories about their attitude to work that although it has doubled its expansion. If the Germans needs to be taken seriously. We are also in danger of can do it, we can. leaving a pool of disillusioned indigenous workers, When Dubai’s hub, rather immodestly called the many of them in our inner cities. world hub, comes on stream, it will also bypass Heathrow The workforce of this country built up this nation’s for many from the Middle East and the Indian wealth for centuries, and many paid a heavy price with subcontinent. Many big companies located around their health and often their lives. I have seen with my Heathrow have already moved. Where have they moved own eyes the skills that many of our people possess to? To Amsterdam, to Frankfurt—less so to Paris—but and which, under continuous upskilling of our existing increasingly to Madrid. BA’s tie-up with the Spanish workforce, they can acquire. However, there is a missing airline means that many of the flights now coming in link. In many cases, people do not connect the acquisition from Brazil and the rest of South America go not to of a skill with a rewarding lifestyle. Too many people Heathrow but to Madrid. I say to the Government: if have been sent to training schemes that have not led to you do not get an aviation policy, this country will a job. That has undermined the principle of work marginalise itself in the global and European economy. paying, as those schemes are frequently seen as a waste We will pay an awfully high price for that and will not of time. We have much to do to break that cycle, do anything to improve the climate. particularly in concentrated geographical areas of our country. I hope that the Minister can confirm that Her 1.24 pm Majesty’s Government will do all in their power to Lord Empey: My Lords, it is good that once again promote the type of work ethic that once made this we are discussing matters that go to the very heart of country great. Without restoring a meaningful balance our economic future. I, too, thank the noble Lord, in our economy, particularly in manufacturing, we will Lord Hollick, for securing this debate. We have also never develop the ability once again to create the had a banquet of maiden speeches in the House today, wealth that will pay for the public services that all of and it has been wonderful to hear them; they certainly us so desperately want to be delivered. The information enrich our proceedings. and ideas that have come from different parts of the Investment, innovation, technology, infrastructure, Chamber today have demonstrated that we have the skills and job creation are the buzzwords we all use ideas that can lead us back to the greatness of our when talking about our nation’s ability to regain economic industry as it once was. momentum. Members may be aware that this autumn, WorldSkills 2011 will be held here in London. WorldSkills 1.28 pm is a biannual event which was last held in Calgary in 2009. I had the privilege of attending that event as Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe: My Lords, I am Skills Minister, along with members of the previous delighted to be able to contribute to this debate, in Government. We saw many of our young people which we have enjoyed some marvellous maiden speeches. competing with their peers from all over the world, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Hollick on securing and the UK did very well, obtaining many medals for this opportunity to follow up last week’s wide-ranging excellence in a variety of disciplines. Even higher and illuminating debate on rebalancing the economy. targets have been set for London this year. WorldSkills I strongly believe that a strategy for economic recovery is a bit like the skills Olympics, although the association must prioritise our strengths in innovation and high-level does not like to call it that. It gives young people, skills. High-level skills are the currency of today’s whether they are training to be tradespeople, beauticians, knowledge economy, and I want to concentrate my gardeners or workers in aerospace, the confidence to remarks on the critical role played by the UK’s higher take on the best in the world. education sector in providing and developing those However, my main point is that whatever training is skills. This is a subject on which I have spoken previously provided or acquired by the state, the most important in this House and elsewhere, and which I explored on thing cannot be manufactured: the right attitude. I many occasions during my time as chief executive of fear that the attitude towards work, especially manual Universities UK. and manufacturing work, is severely deficient in this Higher education has been called a global powerhouse country. There has been much criticism that thousands for knowledge economies. That is certainly the case in of people have come into this country, mostly from the UK. Our universities and higher education colleges within the EU, and gained almost half of the new jobs have an unparalleled record in fostering innovation, created during the boom years up to 2008. Why did enterprise and skills and in helping to create wealth and that happen? Many employers told me that the big job opportunities. I know our Government understand difference between the indigenous and migrant workers this. Indeed, the coalition Government acknowledge was their attitude and work ethic. There were no duvet that universities are essential for building a strong and days for many of those migrant workers, no sick days, innovative economy. This reflects a widespread political and they were always available for whatever overtime recognition of the importance of higher education they were offered. to the UK achieved over the past decade and the 1377 Economy: Growth[LORDS] Economy: Growth 1378

[BARONESS WARWICK OF UNDERCLIFFE] had been missed by £485 billion. Rules may be made unprecedented political and financial commitment given to be broken, but surely not by £485 billion. Restoring to this highly successful sector by the previous the nation’s finances is the prerequisite for a thriving Government. This was achieved in part because the business economy. There are other things that a universities themselves were able to produce the evidence Government can do to foster business, and last week to convince government that higher education was a we saw some welcome steps in that direction, particularly worthwhile investment, not a cost. with the reduction in corporation tax, and a firm As we consider a growth strategy and await the commitment to reduce the 50 per cent rate of income higher education White Paper, I urge the Government tax is also something that will encourage the business not to lose sight of this essential point: if we are not community. There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate to fall behind competitor nations, many of which are that punitive tax rates do not enhance a nation’s wealth. investing heavily in universities, we cannot afford to What is truly important for businesses is the degree row back on our investment in knowledge and knowledge of certainty and clarity about the regime in which they transfer. Despite the years of additional investment, operate and the taxes and regulations that apply. The we still spend less on higher education than the OECD Government have indicated that they understand that average. Meanwhile China and India are already turning tax is unduly complicated and that there is a need to out more engineers and more university graduates simplify it. The noble Lord, Lord Wood, in his admirable than the whole of Europe and American combined. maiden speech, suggested that a joke half way through Of course the public funding climate has changed. a speech would be welcome. I do not really have one, Universities understand that they have to shoulder their but I refer noble Lords to Tolley’s Tax Guide.Itnow share of the cuts, so last week’s Budget’s encouragement runs to 1,897 pages, which is an increase of 185 per cent to our research base in the form of changes to R&D since 1999. That is not really funny. Businesses need a tax credits and an additional £100 million in capital break from too many rules and too much regulation. expenditure for science was very welcome. The spending Although the Government are moving in that direction, review also gave some protection to the science budget there is still plenty of scope for a scythe to be wielded. in cash terms. However, these chinks of light should The animal spirit of true entrepreneurism will win not blind us to the scale of the cuts being applied to through if we do not put too many obstacles in its way. higher education. Universities are by their very nature Britain has some great businesses, but we need more. long-term organisations. World-class research, the creation We are in the forefront in the services sector, but of new ideas, products and industries and the development despite the understandable talk of the financial world of a highly skilled workforce are all long-term benefits. needing to slow down a bit, manufacturing is actually Like other noble Lords, I refer to the OECD 2010 already a greater contributor to our economy than innovation report which concluded that Governments financial services. There are some great success stories. must continue to invest in future sources of growth, We cannot compete with the low-cost economies of such as education, infrastructure and research. Cutting the world on price, but we can on quality and design. I back public investment in support of innovation may was cheered yesterday to hear of a business in Lancashire provide short-term fiscal relief but will damage the that weaves its own fabrics and turns them into high- foundations of long-term growth. quality furnishings. It is called Herbert Parkinson, I wish to make two further short points about how and it is owned by the John Lewis Partnership. It we can best nurture our high-level skills. We must employs 300 people, and last year its sales exceeded continue to support ways of transforming research £47 million. This year it will top £50 million. It succeeds into innovation, build stronger links between the UK’s because it produces the quality and design that customers science and research base and industry, create more want. British companies will not undercut the prices spin-out companies and attract overseas investment to of Sri Lanka or Turkey, but we can compete with the the UK. We must provide an environment in which world’s best when it comes to quality and design. international collaboration can flourish. That means a We hear repeatedly that smaller companies and student visa system that is understood to be welcoming entrepreneurs find it hard to raise the finance they to international scholars. Of course abuse must be need to foster this sort of quality. If that is the case, I tackled, but the Government must also ensure that have one potential solution. Our larger companies are our ability to attract the best students is not harmed as currently sitting on huge amounts of cash. I fear that a consequence. As Vince Cable has acknowledged in the investment bankers will be knocking on their another place, we cannot measure where our investment doors, trying to persuade them to buy their rivals and should be in monetary terms alone. If we are to be spend their money that way. That would generate players in the global knowledge economy, we cannot welcome fees for the bankers, but we know that rarely afford to lose momentum in our investment in higher do such takeovers bolster the nation’s wealth. It would education. To stand still in this regard is to fall behind. be better by far that those big companies back smaller entrepreneurial outfits, providing them not just with 1.33 pm cash but with confidence and contacts. Tax breaks for Baroness Wheatcroft: My Lords, the prime requirement such investments have been mooted. Xavier Rolet, the for growth is a stable economic environment. That is chief executive of the London Stock Exchange, has the golden rule. Noble Lords will recall that the previous suggested it. I do not think tax breaks should be Government had a different rule. In his first Budget, the reason. I think that companies need to invest and Chancellor George Osborne had to report that Gordon nurture smaller businesses, and I encourage the Brown’s golden rule about restricting the country’s Government’s business council, which is doing some borrowing had not quite been met. In fact, the target wonderful work, to encourage just this idea. 1379 Economy: Growth[31 MARCH 2011] Economy: Growth 1380

1.37 pm companies such as Cisco and Google have decided to Lord Mitchell: My Lords, 11 years in your Lordships’ invest in these areas and in these companies. It is very House and for the first time, I have lost my speech. exciting. Actually, it was left on the Northern line, so while These companies are now running out of space. somebody was having a lot of fun reading it, I was Where will they go to? After the Olympics in 2012, having a quiet panic in the Bishops’ Bar, trying to many of them will work in the Olympic park and, for reconstruct it. Anyhow, here goes. the first time anywhere in the world, an Olympic First, I thank my noble friend Lord Hollick for Games will have a true legacy made up of high-tech securing this debate. He started as an entrepreneur, he and creative industries. ran a major media group and now he is with one of the premier private equity companies in the world. 1.42 pm He is the quintessential businessman. I, too, am an Lord Morris of Handsworth: My Lords, in this debate entrepreneur. I have started three companies from I have noted a broad measure of agreement right across scratch, built them up and eventually sold them. It is your Lordships’ House—agreement on the fundamental great. I have loved being an entrepreneur and I would requirements for sustained economic growth, many of recommend it to anybody. Seeing companies grow and which were so ably set out in the introduction by my develop and seeing your staff grow is fantastic. However, noble friend Lord Hollick. I associate myself with his there is a dark side to being an entrepreneur as well. It comments. is terrifying not being sure that you can meet the We all believe in a stable economy that is underpinned payroll, there are problems with the banks, all sorts of by sound monetary and fiscal policies, we are all things wake you up in a cold sweat at two in the committed to the pursuit of excellence at every level of morning and the stress is enormous. So when I hear our education system and we all support an economic the Government say that 300,000 public sector employees model that is based on investment, research and innovation. will, as a result of all the cuts, somehow find another We all want to see Britain leading the world in its job because of private sector growth and the exports, supported by a robust and transparent finance entrepreneurial society that we are going to form, I sector. Of course, with my background I am proud to simply do not believe it. I cannot conceive that somebody say that in Britain we have the most flexible labour who has been working in the public sector for 10 or market in the European Union. Therefore, if I am right 20 years is somehow suddenly going to come out and about the fundamental requirements for economic become an entrepreneur. It absolutely does not make growth I am bound to ask what is holding us back; why sense to me. the German economy is growing in a recession throughout The tone of today’s debate has been, “What is Europe; why the US, China and India are growing wrong with the UK economy?”. I want to devote the world exporters while growth forecast in our country two minutes and 15 seconds that I have left to what is is being revised down and down; and why investment right. It is a very exciting story. The noble Lord, Lord is being reduced time after time in sector after sector. Kestenbaum, in his excellent speech, talked about However, investment is not just about investment in Silicon Valley. We now have a Silicon Valley in this plants and machinery; it is also about people. That is country. It is not in Cambridge; it is three miles from why I use the term “socially responsible”, because that here and it is a revolution. It has the most wonderful is one of the requirements for economic success. The title of “Silicon Roundabout”. It is to be seen around well-being of this or indeed any nation directly correlates Old Street and Brick Lane—indeed, that whole area. with the economic performance of the country. The It is the east London cluster development and it is society in which we live expects certain norms to be better than anything else in Europe. It is fabulously part and parcel of social and economic policy. That is exciting and it needs an awful lot more publicity. why it is so important that we start right at the I suppose that one of the things that people always beginning in the early years. said about Silicon Valley was that it was clusters of Of course, what we have experienced recently are people with similar ideas in life getting together after cuts in the social infrastructure. That will not deliver work. I recommend to any noble Lord taking a drive growth. There is no growth to be had in cutting around Silicon Roundabout to see the bars, the restaurants swimming pools or indeed closing parks and libraries. and the unbelievable enthusiasm around there. It is In the long term, some of the policies that we are full of young people all working in small businesses in following will in themselves retard growth. The increase creative industries such as applications for iPhones, in university tuition fees will probably deter some of music, advertising, fashion and movies, in all of which our young people from taking those vital steps towards London is to the forefront. As I said, young people are higher education. One of the engines of economic doing all this. There is something about that area that growth, particularly in the venture capital sector, is Cambridge would never have and the City and the our pension funds. The recent decision to change the West End never have. It is edgy and cool and it attracts contribution rates will mean that less and less is available these sorts of people. for that important sector. To conclude, we have run How did this area come about? It did not come out of options by following cuts. The only option left about under this Government or the previous one to us is to go for growth. either. It was spontaneous. It just happened. It has just grown like Topsy. Why? First, low rents were available. 1.46 pm Secondly, it was close to the centres of finance, fashion, Lord Rees of Ludlow: My Lords, noble Lords might theatre and advertising companies. It has produced have read about the winners of the 2010 Nobel physics these raw entrepreneurs, to the extent that today American prize, Andre Geim and Kostya Novoselov. They are 1381 Economy: Growth[LORDS] Economy: Growth 1382

[LORD REES OF LUDLOW] 1.50 pm both Russians who came to the UK in 1999, to Lord Patel: My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my Manchester University, where they were given freedom noble friend Lord Rees and I will continue the theme and support for a speculative request, which paid off that he started. First, I declare an interest as chancellor massively. They discovered that carbon atoms could of the University of Dundee, where I also worked for form a sheet just one atom thick—a new material nearly 40 years. The university’s College of Life Sciences called graphene with astonishing strength and novel and Division of Signal Transduction Therapy is a electric properties. They needed time but no costly model of the largest collaboration of academia and equipment. The clinching experiments involved strips pharma in the United Kingdom. It is about such of Sellotape. Graphene might be the basis for collaboration that I wish to speak today. transformative technologies, but its development will not be so cheap and it will be fully as intellectually The Academy of Medical Sciences report, Academia, challenging. Engineers like the noble Lord, Lord Broers, Industry and the NHS: Collaboration and Innovation, would endorse the message of the old cartoon showing and the NESTA report, All Together Now: Improving two beavers looking up at a hydroelectric dam. One is Cross-sector Collaboration in the UK Biomedical Industry, saying to the other, “I didn’t actually build it, but it’s highlight the opportunity that the UK has, with its based on my idea”. Will the UK deploy the resources world-leading pharma industry, biomedical science and expertise to benefit from discoveries such as and National Health Service, to produce innovations graphene? and economic growth. The pharmaceutical industry is changing its model of R&D investment to that of This episode prompts other concerns. Would younger more extramural funding, which I believe provides counterparts of these two Russians today make the opportunities for the United Kingdom. UK their preferred destination? Would they even get entry visas? Do our brightest and best young people An ageing population and the increasing use of perceive a spirit of enterprise in a country in which healthcare in the BRIC countries means that the industry science and engineering offer good career prospects? has huge growth potential. Countries such as the Even in the privileged environment of Cambridge—I USA, Singapore and France have recognised this by declare an interest as a professor there—my younger increasing their investment in research capabilities. We colleagues seem ever more preoccupied with grant cuts, have strong research universities in life sciences, as job security and so on, and prospects of breakthroughs evidenced by the high citation impact, which beat even will plummet if such concerns pray unduly on the the United States of America. But we underexploit the minds of even the brightest. resources that we have—the NHS, universities, and large and small pharma. In research, international excellence is all. The difference While strong institutions, enabling regulations, funding in pay-off between the very best and the merely good and people with research skills are important, what is is by any measure thousands of per cent. Therefore, lacking across the country is collaborative mechanisms, most crucial in enhancing value for money for taxpayers and the fora, incentives and metrics that promote and is not scraping a few per cent in efficiency savings; it is encourage interactions between the players. Collaboration maximising the chance of big breakthroughs by attracting allows a better use of resources, avoids duplication and supporting top mobile talent and sending positive and improves access to specialist facilities and expertise, signals to the young. which importantly improves the capacity for innovation. In his state of the union address in January, President Big pharma is increasingly looking for external partners Obama asserted that his nation faced another Sputnik for drug development. Industry currently funds around moment due to the rise of the Far East as a competitor. 10 per cent of biomedical research in UK universities. He argued against cuts in R&D investment with a If universities were to increase this to 15 per cent, it neat metaphor. He said that you cannot make an would mean an extra £100 million, which still would overweight aircraft more airworthy by removing an be only 8.5 per cent of extramural R&D funding of engine. That message is even more vital for the UK. pharma companies. Science and innovation are essential engines if we are There is a risk that the UK will remain static while to rebalance our economy away from an overdependence other countries grow. One indicator of the extent of on the financial sector. What is needed is a 10-year or such collaboration could be an analysis of the levels of 15-year road map, which offers hope that, after four clinical trials activity in each hospital trust. Currently, years of declining real-terms funding, science can the number of patients enrolled in clinical trials is low share the fruits of the recovery that it should help to and falling. Collaboration would produce company generate. We can surely afford it. The total UK science growth in the private sector and increase income in the budget is now less than the bonus pool for London public sector. As pharma grows, R&D spend will bankers. grow. By 2015, there could be an additional £3 billion We do not know what will be the 21st-century in external R&D funding. We need the right infrastructure, counterparts of the electron, the double helix and the an electronic patient record system to support research computer. Nor do we know where the great future and reform of the VAT system to encourage collaboration, innovators will get their formative training and their and to develop more specialist support services. inspiration. But the UK will decline unless it can The UK should accelerate the development of sustain its edge in discovery and innovation, get its electronic patient records to support medical research share of these key people and ensure that some of the and aim to become the world leader. Scotland has key ideas of the 21st century are generated and, even made a success of this and provides a valuable research more important, exploited here. resource. Industry can help by providing more industry 1383 Economy: Growth[31 MARCH 2011] Economy: Growth 1384 placements and secondments. The intellectual property financial services—something that we threaten at our model of universities, NHS and pharma needs to peril—but, just as importantly, because of the vibrancy change from getting income to developing research of London’s creative and business service sectors. However, further. There needs to be more sharing of research overall, UK productivity persistently lags behind our facilities to reduce costs. Similar arguments could also leading competitors, as many noble Lords have pointed be made to pricing policies for research that involves out. What can the Government do about this? Economic risk sharing. value is not created by Governments but by individuals I hope the Minister agrees that in our world-leading who have insight and ability, and access to capital to pharma, leading research universities and the NHS, realise that insight. Yet many individuals and businesses we have fantastic opportunities to bring about innovation in recent years have been experiencing something akin and treatment of disease. The Government should to a cataclysm. The economy has taken a veritable examine ways to see how best to bring this about. body blow. Thus Government can most help business by engendering a stable economic framework, something 1.54 pm that Governments the world over, along with regulators Lord Haskel: My Lords, first, I congratulate my and financial institutions, have all too conspicuously noble friend on this debate. I should also like to failed to do over the past few years. Learning and commend the Minister for his perseverance. This is the applying the lessons of this widespread policy failure third Thursday on which he has been on that Bench. I is the first priority both globally and nationally, and am very pleased that this debate has moved on and none of us can be certain we are there yet, as the that we have not heard a lot of speeches which chastening news from Ireland today reminds us. continuously tell us that all our troubles have been In the UK, we look increasingly to the global down to the previous Government. labour market for rare and valuable skills. Overall, our I agree with my noble friend Lord Hollick that the own education system focuses insufficiently on the Government’s paper, The Plan for Growth, has many need to arm individuals and to provide the UK economy hopes and aspirations. Who of us does not support with the skills needed at every level to power modern balance in the economy and growth in manufacturing, business. For decades, our high-level educational outcomes investment, skills and science and technology? We all have lagged behind our competitors, and that needs to share, and have shared, these aspirations for many change. Moreover, overly rigid immigration rules will years. When I talk to people in business today and ask block the entry of vital skills and talent, and thus them what they consider to be the most important threaten our productivity even further. So too, amid factor for their future prospects, the answer is not tax, the realities of the global economy which I daily live regulation, or the five things that the Government list and breathe, will internationally uncompetitive tax in their paper. It is people such as those who my noble regimes for individuals and corporations. High tax friend Lord Hollick listed and the noble Lord, Lord rates will not prompt an immediate exodus, but I have Hamilton, spoke about; as a Jewish immigrant, I thank seen at the margin the impact they have, and it is him for his words. It is not people who are anxious to adverse to our true national interests. I should declare avoid tax. As my noble friend Lord Kestenbaum said, my own interests as a director or shareholder of several it is people who want to be part of a national effort to companies operating both nationally and globally; build our economy. But this topic is entirely absent these are listed in the register. from this paper. It is the modern style of outward-looking, entrepreneurial people-based management which seems Other factors are reducing our productivity. The to be the hallmark of most new successful businesses, principles that underpin the UK’s planning regime are about which my noble friend Lord Mitchell spoke. admirable, but the interminable length of many of our The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, spoke about planning processes and the fact that there is no economic government grants. Yes, the Government do try but penalty for all those who can cause delay—often very their finance is available in small packets for specific considerable delay, and many of them from the public purposes. Schemes are announced all the time. One sector—is enormously value-destructive. Our economy such scheme, announced in May 2010, was a tax break is also handicapped by the worst transport infrastructure for the first 10 employees of a new business set up in by far in the developed world. The individual who Britain’s poorer regions This scheme received special wrote in a recent business department paper that the mention in the Economist on 3 March. A government UK has a “well developed infrastructure network” source described the take-up as “incredibly low”. It should be sent immediately to Holland, where I was was incredibly low not because of bureaucracy but last week, to compare, for instance, the superb Dutch because this fragmented attitude no longer works. road and airport infrastructure with the UK’s own. Trying to tease out individual causes does not seem to Perhaps the Chancellor, when next contemplating his work any more. Businessmen have to bring it all admirable aims for promoting UK productivity might together. At the end of the day, you either have confidence reflect, when travelling to his own constituency in the in the people and the project or you do not. As north-west on the M6, that it is Europe’s worst and everyone knows, it is people who matter, which is most congested strategic route, and then remind himself where our priority should lie. of the trivial investment in current spending plans for improving our national road infrastructure. 1.58 pm In conclusion, if we are ever to bring productivity Lord Birt: My Lords, the UK economy in London in the UK up to world standards, the Government will and the south-east is measurably as productive as any need to roll up their sleeves and focus on getting the in Europe, not just because of the City’s world-leading big things right, on addressing the stubborn, difficult 1385 Economy: Growth[LORDS] Economy: Growth 1386

[LORD BIRT] the Government do not want to shoot their big society and often politically unappealing challenges that have programme in the foot, these cuts should surely be the long held back and still hold back the UK economy first ones to reverse. from fulfilling its true potential. 2.07 pm 2.03 pm Lord Flight: My Lords, first, I congratulate the Lord Layard: My Lords, long-term growth depends noble Lord, Lord Hollick, on initiating what I think on the accumulation of capital. I want to make just has been a very constructive debate. I also congratulate one point about each type of capital: human capital, all the maiden speakers on their excellent contributions. physical capital and social capital. Human capital is of I feel passionately that this country should do better. I course much the most important as it accounts for am a lover of its history and I observe what has over half of the value-added in our economy. As a happened in the past: how self-help, a strong work country we do quite well at the production of human ethic and a dissenting culture got industry and commerce capital in our universities and sixth forms. We have a going in this country. We have had interesting good and well understood system. But we have absolutely contributions today from the noble Lords, Lord no well understood system for producing skills for the Kestenbaum and Lord Popat, on the importance of other half of the population. It is an area of scandalous the entrepreneurs from the immigrant communities. neglect which has persisted for many decades. In the past, it would have been Huguenots and others. Eventually, the previous Government produced what I do not think that there is perhaps such agreement I consider to be the central solution, which is to ensure on the conditions that are likely to see us doing much that everyone who wants it can have access to an better and that saw us doing so well in the past. I am apprenticeship. This was established as an entitlement no apologist for it, but I think that they are essentially in the Act passed in 2009. Anyone with five passes of to be found in capitalism. I have lived and worked in any kind at GCSE would be entitled to an apprenticeship Hong Kong and I have been a great follower and lover place. As a result, every 14 year-old would be just as of India. I observe how both of them, India latterly, likely to see a way forward if he wanted to go down the have done so incredibly well. Living standards in apprenticeship route as he would if he took the sixth Hong Kong are now much higher than here as the form route. This was to happen by 2013 and in my result of a much more open capitalist economy where view it was the single most important policy for growth entrepreneurs can prosper. In my textbook, if the that was introduced in the previous Parliament. But, public sector is much more than 40 per cent, you are incredibly, the present Government’s Education Bill, if heading for trouble, and in my textbook, if small it is passed, will cancel this reform. Instead, the businesses are tied down by too many regulations, Government are offering 12,500 extra places a year for they will not prosper. I was particularly interested in unemployed youngsters. One wonders at their thinking. the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, How can it make sense to wait for a person to become about Brick Lane. Indeed, that is exactly the sort of unemployed before they can get a proper education? entrepreneurial new area colony we want to see. I am We have got into an extraordinary frame of mind in glad it has happened, but I think it has more to do this country. For that group of people we have stop-gap with good luck than a perfect environment. measures and programmes. We want a proper system I do not believe that any government-contrived for the half of our population whose talents we have go-for-growth policy will work. The Heath Government failed to develop to enable them to become skilled and tried it and it ended in disaster. Governments can have a proper stake in our community. Will the make the right environment for the economy to do Government please let the reform in the 2009 Act better, and this Government are doing pretty well at it, stand? They did not oppose it before, and surely the but there are no government quick fixes. need is even more obvious now. Productivity growth in the past decade fell by 25 per I turn to physical capital. What we need are incentives cent, from 2 per cent to 1.5 per cent per annum. I to invest, which means good prospects for growth and regret to comment that it was very obviously the result financial inducements for the creation of new capital. of the overexpansion of, and negative growth in, the But instead the Government are spending money on public sector. The poor old private sector was having cutting corporation tax, which mainly provides a windfall to run faster and faster and was being squeezed by gain for existing capital. If we had time-limited tax resources going to the public sector. The coalition allowances for new capital creation, that would be of Government have got things pretty well right. On the benefit in the long term and bring forward the recovery. whole macro issue of keeping our credit-worthiness, Finally, social capital is a much neglected asset of they have succeeded. I would have liked there to have ours, but it is crucial to the mobilisation of our human been no increases in tax—if anything, tax cuts—and potential. Social capital is what the big society is all more radical sorting-out and reform of the public about, so I find it difficult to understand why we are sector. I return to my main point: you will not get the seeing the destruction of so much social capital at this economy going if you go round putting up taxes too time. Every day we hear of people in the third sector much. being laid off. They are often people who have been However, the trends do not look too bad. Corporate mobilising the assets of dozens of volunteers. We profitability was up 37 per cent last year—admittedly, learn from the National Council for Voluntary on a terrible previous year—and it was remarkable Organisations that the charitable sector is annually that 420 jobs were created in the private sector in a going to be losing at least £3 billion of state funding. If year that none of us thought was particularly encouraging. 1387 Economy: Growth[31 MARCH 2011] Economy: Growth 1388

It is clear that we are set for exports and capital means that the idea that shareholders are in some investment to lead growth and for, I hope, an economy meaningful sense the people to whom the board is that will have a higher savings and investment basis to accountable is fanciful. That the boards’ remuneration support it. committees have pushed up directors’ salaries such I want particularly to rebut what I am afraid I view that the gap between their pay and that of the average as rather Luddite and misguided economic attacks on worker is 10 times greater than it was 20 years ago is a the financial services sector. The main criticism is of scandal. In my view, it is based on fraud in some cases two individuals whose reckless behaviour led two major and a lot of these people ought to be locked up. So banks into bankruptcy and to a failure of monetary mine is not exactly the same line of thought as that of policy—for which the Bank of England was responsible the noble Lord, Lord Flight. —and of regulatory policy. But banks are not the In the middle of all this, what is it that Britain is whole financial services sector by miles. It is surely lacking in the four cylinders of its motor car engine appropriate that a mature economy such as the UK firing at the moment? Let us look at the way in which should have a large amount of activity in that sector—I the German economy operates, with its supervisory might add that it is a great deal larger in Hong Kong. boards—which I advocate for this country. Let us take The biggest bank in the world, HSBC, came through it a fundamental look at the Victorian company law all without any trouble and any need for public sector which we operate even now, more than 150 years since or taxpayer support. it was written; it is essentially the same. I offer an Let us remember that that industry generates some anecdote. A CEO of a company in this country went £100 billion of exports, some 1 million jobs and £55-odd to Sweden and the first question put to him was: million of tax revenues, and that London contributes “How is this takeover, if it goes through, going to help something like £50 billion a year to the rest of the our world market share?” That is not the experience economy. London has been the great success of this of board members in this country. They are part of a country. cabal, answerable only to themselves.

Baroness Northover: I remind your Lordships that 2.17 pm this is a time-limited debate and that when you hit four Lord Mawson: My Lords, the sector that is always on the clock, you have had four minutes. neglected when politicians and civil servants look at growth strategies is the faith community. On 22 February 2.13 pm last year, I led a debate in your Lordships’ House that Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, I shall not surprise explored the future use of nearly 50,000 church buildings the House by saying that the analysis of the noble standing in the middle of virtually every community Lord, Lord Flight, is totally the opposite of mine. His in the United Kingdom. Building on this debate, on is the ideological analysis that lies behind the present 25 March last week I hosted a national conference at Government, a Government who are driving the economy Gorton Monastery in Manchester where the noble Lord, to the wall. Perhaps he and I could have a bet on it. Lord Wei, spoke about the big society. Here, I must declare at interest as a director of the social enterprise, The noble Lord compared us to Hong Kong. Hong One Church, 100 Uses, which organised the event. Kong’s logic is effectively to be understood as part of China. It is an enterprise zone for the Chinese economy There are many church assets and resources in to some extent and it has a degree of inequality that communities across this country that do not receive even the noble Lord, Lord Flight, I assume, would not the recognition they deserve. At Trinity United Reformed advocate for this country. The model set by our country Church in Gosforth, Newcastle, the congregation is with its history, as a northern European country playing leading a business improvement district bid built on a successful part, along with Germany, Holland, Sweden the back of the work that has been done during the and others, in European society, is not one I hear past decade reconfiguring three church buildings and spoken of as part of the ideology coming from the establishing an enterprise hub which is now redefining other side. In fact, the noble Lord’s speech could be the centre of the town. Today, this church is a major summed up as: private sector productive; public sector local employer. unproductive. Are people in education not productive? Gorton Monastery, the conference venue, is today Are people in health not productive? These are caricatures. run as an enterprise specialising in banqueting, I recognise that a question has to be put to the conferences, weddings and business bookings. Yet a Labour Party and people such as me: what is the decade ago, this was a cathedral-like building that alternative? To the wonderful march on Saturday, in stood derelict and desecrated. Following a £6.5 million which 500,000 people took part, the Government’s restoration scheme, led by the social entrepreneur response was that we did not put forward an alternative. Elaine Griffiths and her team, the Monastery Trust, I do not think that putting a sticking plaster on the this formerly unused asset now sits alongside the Taj present arrangements is the solution, whether it be the Mahal and the ancient ruins of Pompeii in having operation of the auditors—a mutual admiration society being listed among the 100 most endangered heritage as analysed in our own Economic Affairs Select sites in the world. Committee report published yesterday—or typical boards Another national example is the Bromley by Bow of directors or the merchant banks. As was pointed Centre in east London, which I founded—I must out by my noble friend Lord Eatwell the other day, therefore declare an interest. It grew out of a local boards of directors in this country do not represent church congregation of 12 elderly people. It now has anybody apart from themselves. The churning of shares 31 established businesses and has an active business 1389 Economy: Growth[LORDS] Economy: Growth 1390

[LORD MAWSON] of being Members of this House and of having the partnership with the multinational company G4S and opportunity to address your Lordships. They wanted other leading corporates. Together, they create innovative to make sure that they made their constructive solutions, based on business principles, for some of contributions to this serious and important today, and our most challenging social issues. Is not the big they had to do all that in four minutes. I hope that the society about businesses and social entrepreneurs working House will be more generous to all those noble Lords together? in future when they make their contributions, but I However, while I am delighted that many churches congratulate them all today on the way in which they are embracing the idea of the big society, there are presented themselves to the House. We all look forward significant problems that will hinder their existence. to hearing from them in the very near future; at We all know that the macro growth of the British greater length, I hope. economy depends on the success of thousands of small As my noble friend Lord Haskel indicated, this is businesses like those I mentioned. These entrepreneurial the third economic debate we have had on successive cultures take time to build. To undermine them when Thursdays. In past weeks, we have somewhat aired our they are starting to fly is not wise in the long term. The differences of perspective on economic policy. An present financial cuts, made irrespective of local context, element of that inevitably underpinned this debate. It are threatening the additional unpublicised services was brought to the fore by the noble Lord, Lord that are deeply embedded in thriving entrepreneurial Skidelsky, and supported by my noble friend Lord centres. McFall who indicated another perspective that is different In East London, at the Bromley by Bow Centre, the from the Government’s—a perspective showing that CEO, a businessman by background with considerable the Government are taking great risks with the economy financial skill, is struggling to shave more than £1 million and the welfare of our society. Her Majesty’s Opposition from his budget because of the scale of the cuts that have been articulate in identifying an alternative route, the organisation faces. He is losing vital services. Despite of which the outstanding feature is that the Government the rhetoric from the Government, social enterprises are bent on reducing the deficit within the minimum are often being disproportionately disadvantaged by period of time—a single Parliament. In doing so, they the cuts when resources are allocated from central are asking the country to be subjected to cuts that will pots and from local authorities. affect the well-being of large sections of the community. I suggest that the big society depends on micro But those cuts also affect the growth potential of the businesses as exemplars to lead the way. I therefore economy. request that the Minister actively explores practical In this debate, noble Lords have identified where ways to identify, promote and foster economic growth these cuts may do harm to the important, long-term within this emerging entrepreneurial sector across the economic development aspects of public investment. I UK. Much of it is based in some of our most challenging know that the Government stress only the private at communities. The social sector is formed from many the present time. None of us doubts the importance of shoots and distinctions need to be drawn to protect the private sector in terms of growth, but one cannot these young entrepreneurial flowers. Will the Minister set at nought the public sector. Nor can one cut it please inform the House how the Government plan to without engaging on a strategy of some risk. empower social enterprises in some of our most challenged As a number of noble Lords identified, our education communities? sector will be under great pressure. Our universities will be significantly starved of public resources and 2.21 pm will have to depend on the free market in terms of the response of students. We do not know whether that Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, it is a delight to will lead to a reduction in resources for the universities follow that constructive contribution from the noble because students are unable or unwilling to pay, and Lord, Lord Mawson. It was partially trailed by my we do not know the impact on recruitment. However, noble friend Lord Layard, who indicated this aspect of we do know that when these reductions take place the social capital is something to which the Government impact on research in our country, and on the development should pay attention with the concept of the big of a great deal of the fundamental basis on which society. I hope that the Minister will address himself creative activities can take place in the economy, may to that point. Of course, these contributions are a be seriously hurt. reflection of the fact that we all owe an enormous debt to my noble friend Lord Hollick for choosing this as a In particular, it seems that we are the only country subject for debate today. It has given the House an engaged on cutting the science budget, while all other opportunity to be constructive and thoughtful about countries regard it as an essential investment. We have positions for the future in circumstances where we all a significant contribution to make in science and have appreciate that the country faces tough times ahead. It a prime position in terms of our world role. However, is important that we are able to chart the routes to the we must be careful about the danger of losing that future which promote the well-being of our society. position as a result of the Government’s strategy. Typically, my noble friend Lord Hollick indicated in It was indicated in the debate that we should not his speech potential areas of entrepreneurial growth underestimate the creative sector, which is an important to which I hope the Minister will respond. growth area of our economy. It was referred to by my Also in the debate, we had five maiden speeches in noble friend Lord Kestenbaum. Creative activity and which all noble Lords rose to a significant challenge the genius of British people, which is translated into today. They had to express, as we all feel, the privilege effective and constructive activity in the media and the 1391 Economy: Growth[31 MARCH 2011] Economy: Growth 1392 whole world of the creative arts, is a growing part of noble Lords who have contributed, particularly the our economy not to be underestimated. It is now noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for securing what is in approaching 10 per cent of the economy. It depends effect, I suppose, part two of our growth/Budget debate. on training, essential skills and the colleges providing I recognise what the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, kindly skilled manpower. said about the endurance of the Minister who has to As my noble friend Lord Layard emphasised, whatever sit here, but I note that many other noble Lords have the difficulties with regard to higher education, we sat here throughout. I am only grateful to at least have should be extremely concerned that this continues to a week between the two debates rather than have it on be a society that undertrains and undereducates a two consecutive days. substantial section of the population. That is why the I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies Government’s contribution with regard to the modest of Oldham. It has been an overwhelmingly constructive number of places in apprenticeships and training schemes debate, in which many positive ideas have come from is a minute dimension of the need that is required to all round the House, and this presents me with an ensure that we have a population sufficiently skilled additional challenge today. Last week I attempted, to make a contribution to our society and earn their maybe foolhardily, to make some mention of all noble living in this world. Cutbacks in that sector—and Lords’ contributions to that debate. But I know my colleges are suffering very substantial cutbacks—and limitations. Today, with even more speakers and an even the loss of the guarantee to which my noble friend shorter time to respond, I apologise in advance but I Lord Layard made reference is a very serious blow. am not going to be able to make mention of everyone Another dimension of this, our transport infrastructure, who spoke. There were lots of good ideas, not all of was introduced by my noble friend Lord Soley and the them workable, but it is right that you should push the noble Lord, Lord Birt. I give due credit to the Government envelope in imaginative ways, whether in the use of with regard to rail investment and the fact that crucial faith buildings or encouraging science in schools. There areas of it are being sustained. But my noble friend are all sorts of great ideas coming from around the Lord Soley is absolutely right when he says that there House, and I will make sure that those are considered does not appear to be a concept of an aviation policy by the Treasury or the other departments responsible. when aviation is bound to play a very significant role In general, the message I take away is very welcome, in the economy. The noble Lord, Lord Birt, also, because I know that the temptation is for us all, or for identified our difficulties with regard to road. a lot of us, to be making political points. The message Another dimension on which I give the Government that I take away is that there are many good things in credit is the aspect with regard to the Green Deal. the Budget and in the growth document that went They are continuing policies which the previous with it, but that we have to work harder—I understand Government adumbrated, but we are looking forward that—and consider lots more of the ideas that are to the whole development of house insulation and coming up. In the phrase of the noble Lord, Lord improvement with regard to conservation of energy in Hollick, it is a worthy and promising start. I appreciate the home. The Government deserve credit for their that. I take to heart the big challenges for us—that we commitment in that area. But as my noble friend Lady must be bold and not timid as a Government. I agree, Worthington indicated, it is not so certain that the and I will come back to that. We must always remember commitment to the green bank and the whole environment the big picture. I agree with that. We have to live up to development is so secure. the challenge of the Government’s part of the bargain of delivering and not just making promises. I will There are tough times ahead. We all recognise that come back to each of those themes in a minute. the nation has got to identify areas of potential growth. But I emphasise this one other dimension, which my I start by acknowledging the five excellent maiden noble friend Lord Wood introduced into his all-too-brief speeches that we have heard today—from the noble speech, when he reflected on the concept of fairness. If Lords, Lord Kestenbaum, Lord Wood of Anfield and we are all in this together, there must be some concept Lord Collins of Highbury, my noble friend Lord Popat, of fairness across society. It will not do that the and of course the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, Government rely upon the failed project Merlin for who has confused me by moving seat. I am glad to see their temporising with regard to the banks and their that she is back in the Chamber. There was a common pathetic gestures towards seeing the banks make some and very important theme in those speeches, some of reparation and take some responsibility for the disasters it put very movingly, about what this country and this of the past, while pursuing policies with regard to House have done to foster diversity, whether of ethnicity, social cutbacks which hit so adversely the least-well-off faith, gender or sexual orientation. Of course, we must in our society. not forget that diversity in hair colour is also a feature of life. The maiden speakers also, by their diverse I am grateful that today we have moved from a backgrounds in business, academia, the unions and position of significant division to one in which there the environment, and by the quality of the individual have been some very constructive proposals on growth. speeches, could make no better case for this making a I hope the Minister will be able to give us encouragement genuinely value-adding House that we are all part of. that he intends to pursue the majority of them. That was a great addition to what was, in any case, a very important debate. 2.32 pm I remind noble Lords of the context of this year’s The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Budget and growth plan. The Budget is about reforming Sassoon): My Lords, we have had a tremendously the nation’s economy so that we have sustainable interesting and wide-ranging debate today. I thank all growth and jobs in the future. “Sustainable” is a word 1393 Economy: Growth[LORDS] Economy: Growth 1394

[LORD SASSOON] appeals, has to be finished in no more than 12 months. that has been used by a number of noble Lords. It is For those of your Lordships who have businesses worth very briefly reminding ourselves, as a number of stuck in planning processes that go on for three or four speakers have done, that this will not be possible years, I suggest that is a bold approach. without sticking to our deficit reduction plan. My A number of speakers brought up the field of noble friend Lord Higgins was the first to point out energy and the question of setting a carbon floor price the constraints within which we live. It is that plan that was raised. I suggest that setting a carbon floor price is has secured the economic stability, the international a bold, difficult but necessary part of underpinning credit rating and the low interest rates that are the the huge amount of new energy investment which this platform from which we must go forward with sustainable country needs, so we will not shy away from taking the growth. difficult decisions. Last week’s Budget was built on clear economic We have heard a lot about education— principles of sound public finances—and no wavering on that—but support for private sector growth, reward for work, help with the pressure of high fuel prices in Lord Davies of Stamford: Will the Minister not the short term and a new vision for growth. That acknowledge that although setting a carbon price vision for growth has four key ambitions at its heart: might be very desirable if it was based on international that Britain should have the most competitive tax agreement, if it is based on a purely unilateral or system in the G20; that Britain should be the best national move we shall be handicapping our industry place in Europe to start, finance and grow a business; and our growth, and contributing nothing at all to the that Britain should be a more balanced economy by reduction of global warming? encouraging exports and investment; and that Britain should have a more educated workforce that is the Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I do not wish to be most flexible in Europe. Those noble Lords who had discourteous to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, the stamina to be here during last week’s debate as well but if I am to do justice to at least some of the points will know that I went through each of these four areas that have been raised in the debate so far, he will thematically. But let me today take a slightly different perhaps forgive me if I do not answer his question in cut through the issues, prompted very much by the intervention. I would rather do justice to some of the challenge of the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, that we points made in the debate. must be bold and that timidity is not enough. That is On education and bringing people into the workforce, linked to the challenge from a number of noble Lords I could mention a number of initiatives but let me just that we must attend to the big picture. draw attention to the apprenticeships. Those are one Let me suggest to your Lordships a number of key plank of what has to be a bold transformation of areas in which I believe we are being bold and addressing young people’s appreciation of the different and valuable the big-picture issues. Take corporation tax: the fact routes into work. The total number of apprenticeships that we are heading, in three years from now, down to that will be available over the next four years is 1.1 million, a corporation tax headline rate of 23 per cent, which so the Government are playing their part in making will take us to the lowest rate in the G7 and one of the the apprenticeships available. I hope that, as my noble lowest in the G20. I suggest that that sends the clearest friend Lord Newby has said, business will rise to the signal possible around the world that this country is challenge of taking up those places. Again, these are again open and welcoming to all businesses to come big-picture issues and this is, I suggest, a bold approach. and base significant global operations here. Lastly, there has been mention from a number of Deregulation is a difficult, challenging topic which angles of the challenge to get finance into our corporate the previous Government worked hard on but we have sector, whether SMEs or the whole of industry. We to find new ways of tackling it credibly. Again, we will have set the banks the challenge now, through the deal be bold so we are starting right now with a new that we have done with them, whereby they have initiative to put tens of thousands of individual regulations agreed to make up to £190 billion of credit available on to a public website. Two weeks at a time, chunks of for new loans, and more if it is necessary. That very regulation related to a specific part of the economy significant amount of money should meet the reasonable will be open to challenge. At the end of the period of demands of growing businesses in this country. When public challenge, it will be up to the departments the banks are under considerable pressure to manage concerned to argue why any regulations which have their balance sheets more prudently under new capital been challenged by the public must stay in place. The and liquidity rules, I suggest again that getting financing presumption of the committee led by my right honourable through to businesses is one of the big-picture challenges friend the Business Secretary will be that if people and that we as a Government are rising to that challenge identify a regulation that has to go, it has to go unless in a suitably bold way. there is an overriding reason for it to stay. I suggest Another big-picture theme that has come up a that is bold. number of times and which deserves particular recognition Planning is a critical issue for growth in this country, is that of infrastructure because, again, the size of the and we will bring out some draft new planning guidelines challenge is enormous. A number of speakers raised within the next few months. They will have in them a this, the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, first, with the fundamental new approach which has, at its heart, a noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, and others following presumption in favour of sustainable development. In after. We have identified £200 billion of infrastructure addition, the new planning rules must have a process investment as being required over the next five years in place where the entirety of planning, including in economic infrastructure alone: in energy, water, 1395 Economy: Growth[31 MARCH 2011] NHS: Standards of Care 1396 broadband, transport and so on. The reason that this materially important to the more challenging investment is so important is clear. We have an ageing infrastructure schemes that must be introduced in the areas of new which needs considerable refreshment and rebuilding energy and new technology. and because of that, at the very start of the Government’s That is to address a few of the specific points made. work on our growth plans last autumn, we put out the I end by drawing attention to one or two of the first ever National Infrastructure Plan. That is starting reasons to be positive, which are very welcome. Yes, to identify, sector by sector, the vision that we have for there are huge challenges, but the noble Lord, Lord the infrastructure that is necessary for this country Rees of Ludlow, reminded us about the latest Nobel over the next 25 years and more. prize-winning team, working with graphene, that has We committed in the growth programme and the been based in this country and the need to exploit Budget to coming up with a rolling forward programme that; the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, talked about of infrastructure projects, so that we can start to give Silicon Roundabout with great passion and the way much greater certainty than there has been to the that that will translate through the Olympic legacy construction and financing industry in this country. and Tech City into something that is really lasting; my If we expect businesses and financiers to take the noble friend Lord Flight talked about the 428,000 jobs strain, which they will do on 60 to 70 per cent of that that were created in the private sector last year; the £200 billion of infrastructure, we need to give them noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, talked about our some clarity about where these programmes will be great strengths growing again in manufacturing and directed, so that is what we will do. exports; and my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft gave us In answer to the specific challenge from the noble a specific example in the design and textile world of Lord, Lord Soley—although he knows this well—it is what we can do. worth restating that, yes, aviation policy is very important. This has been a wide-ranging debate. I take from it That is why my right honourable friend the Transport a great challenge to Government, which I assure noble Secretary took time to work up a consultation paper Lords the Government are committed to driving through. that was published yesterday. I acknowledge that it I also take away some great strengths that we have to may not meet the aspirations of all interests in the work on. The Government are putting our economy aviation sector but it is the start of a critical debate. I back on the right path. We are supporting and will acknowledge that that debate must be had: that is why support enterprise, and we are driving innovation. We the consultation paper has gone out on aviation policy, are doing our part as a Government to invest in skills, which is one critical component. Alongside that, I jobs and infrastructure. The Budget stands firm on acknowledge the references that were made to our our plan for the recovery; it is a plan that is good for commitment as a Government to high-speed rail. We business and good for growth and will help to create must look at transport within a holistic and complete the prosperous economy that the people of Britain deserve. picture. 2.53 pm In this general area, there were also a number of references to the desirability of a green investment Lord Hollick: My Lords, this has been an excellent bank, a national investment bank or an infrastructure debate. I thank every speaker for the informed and bank; your Lordships expressed it in a number of constructive way in which it was conducted. There ways. I entirely understand the ambitions of the noble were many excellent ideas and there have been five Lord, Lord Skidelsky—the noble Lord, Lord McFall outstanding maiden speeches, which give us a glimpse of Alcluith, made this point as well—but without of the formidable contribution that our new colleagues going into the technical details of PSBRs and how are going to bring to our debates. government accounting works, the first thing to say is The Minister has not had the opportunity or the that having a very large national investment or time to go through each and every one of the suggestions infrastructure bank is simply not possible given the that was made. Perhaps he will find an opportunity in constraints that we have on the Government’s balance future to do that, and perhaps he will take up the sheet. However one looks at it, this would score against suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, of having the national borrowing. Even if the case were made, a meeting in the Moses Room to discuss some of these and there are strong proponents on both sides of the things. The contribution that has been made today is argument about how big a green or a national investment worthy of continuing discussion and serious consideration bank is required, we have to be realistic about the by the Government. With that, I beg leave to withdraw constraints of the public balance sheet. the Motion. Within that, we announced last week in the Budget Motion withdrawn. that we have brought forward by one year the starting date for the operation of the green investment bank to 2012-13. I do not want to make political points, but NHS: Standards of Care and this Government for the first time have committed the Commissioning money—£3 billion. That is a good start. We have Debate committed money to this project in a way that there was previously a lot of talk about over the past few 2.53 pm years. The bank will be able to leverage in private sector money so, even though in the first couple of Moved By Lord Turnberg years of its operation it will not be able to have its own To call attention to standards of care and the borrowing, the leveraging effect of the green investment commissioning of services in the National Health bank, by working with private sector investors, will be Service; and to move for papers. 1397 NHS: Standards of Care[LORDS] NHS: Standards of Care 1398

Lord Turnberg: My Lords, I am delighted to have standards of care. When it followed that up 10 years this opportunity of opening this debate. I am pleased later, in 2007, it found that little or nothing had that so many noble Lords are remaining in the Chamber changed. The Commission for Health Improvement in and are going to contribute. I look forward to hearing 2003, the Healthcare Commission in 2007 and the what they have to say. Care Quality Commission in 2010, despite regularly I shall focus my remarks on recent reports of failures changing their names, came up with the same message. in standards of care, particularly for the elderly, but Now there is the book that has just been published, this is also a good opportunity to examine whether the Michael Mandelstam’s How We Treat the Sick, which commissioning arrangements proposed in the new Bill brings all this together in a devastating way. will have a positive or a negative effect on standards of The scandal at the Mid Staffordshire hospital of a care. Perhaps, too, we should look at how the Bill year or so ago turns out not to be an isolated example. might be used to make things better. Every time we have a disastrous fall in standards we I am someone who has spent most of his life have another report or inquiry. I will not list all the working in the NHS and I bow to no one in my hospitals or nursing homes that have been the subject support and admiration of what it achieves. I see of criticism but they range from Cornwall to Rotherham, enormous advances being made every year, and patients from Tameside to Southampton and from Oxford who would no doubt have died are now cured and to Bolton. There are just too many, and it is clearly surviving into old age. Medicine has been transformed not a new phenomenon. It went on under the past out of all recognition during my working life. Government and the one before that, so I do not want It is because I have this pride and huge admiration to make any political points here. But how can we have of the NHS and the people who work in it that I now tolerated this neglect of our most vulnerable citizens feel a deep sense of shame. Despite these wonderful for so long? No one can afford to be sanguine—not advances, in too many places we have been ignoring the doctors, not the nurses, not the managers and not the common decency needed to care for the vulnerable, the Government. I want to say a few words about why the sick and the elderly—and it is the elderly who are and how this is happening and suggest what we might often the most vulnerable. As Ann Abraham, the Health do about it, because we certainly cannot allow it to Service Ombudsman, said in her report, there is a, go on. “gulf between the principles and values of the NHS Constitution Let me apologise for starting with the nurses, for and the felt reality of being an older person in the care of the whom I have the greatest admiration and to whom I NHS in England”. owe a great deal of personal gratitude. However, at the That is why I am going to focus on the elderly, but they end of the day, it is the nurses that patients look to are not the only group where standards have slipped. I first for their personal care and empathy. It is always suspect that other noble Lords may speak about the tempting to look back to a golden age that never was, mentally ill, and only the other day we had a report but one thing that is clearly fixed in my mind is how about failures in maternity services. high the standards of nursing care were on the medical Of course, the media are quick to pick up the wards where I worked in the 1950s and 1960s. Those seemingly occasional horror stories of neglect in a were the days when the sister in charge of her ward hospital. You might want to hide behind the idea that really was in charge. She was usually a mature woman these are rare incidents against a background in which in a career job who made absolutely certain that 1 million people are looked after perfectly well in our everything ran efficiently and well. I admit to running hospitals and nursing homes every 36 hours, and that scared of her; as, indeed, did the patients. is absolutely true. But it turns out that it is not a rare However, those were the days before the revolutions or unusual event. It seems to be happening far too in nurse management and nursing education. One of often, and stories of neglect are just too common for the unintended consequences of the upward drive to comfort: patients, usually in a geriatric ward, unable better educated nurses with university degrees has to eat the food left out of reach at the end of the bed been the development of a generation whose aspirations and collected by staff seemingly unaware that it has are set high. They quite reasonably expect to have a not been touched, and too busy to notice that a thirsty career in which they can practise their skills to a high patient is unable to even drink without help—or, worse, standard. Who can blame them? They do a great job too busy to notice that a helpless patient, unable to get with all the caring attitudes you can wish for. However, out of bed and incontinent, is sitting in damp sheets that has left a gap at the more basic and, to many, less for hours or, the final degradation, soiled by faeces attractive level of the general and geriatric ward where and unwashed for days. there is greater emphasis on the basic needs of patients: Noble Lords might ask whether I exaggerate. Where feeding, washing, help with movement, going to the is the evidence that this picture is not just a rare, toilet and so on. occasional lapse in an otherwise acceptable system of Those are the wards where staffing levels are often care? Well, quite apart from the rather common anecdotes lower per patient in the belief that they do not need of many with elderly relatives, there is now the report the more intensive, one-to-one care of the specialist of the ombudsman in which she describes 10 examples units. So they are often understaffed and sometimes of the complaints she receives that emphasise just how come to rely on temporary, or “bank”, staff, who bad it can get. constantly change. Continuity of care is damaged as We cannot say that we have not been warned. In patients, already a little disorientated by being removed 1997 we had the report from Age Concern in its from their familiar environment, are faced with a “Dignity on the Ward” campaign, describing failing bewildering series of new faces. 1399 NHS: Standards of Care[31 MARCH 2011] NHS: Standards of Care 1400

It is not only the nurses who are constantly changing. The managers must make themselves much more Confusion is compounded by the way the rotas for the aware of their responsibility to ensure that there are ward doctors are arranged to fit in with the European sufficient staff on these wards to cope with what is one working time directive or as they rotate through yet of the most demanding areas of a hospital. They another experience to chalk up on their training should know that these wards cannot be among the programme. So there are new faces at every turn. first, for example, to take cuts. Then there are the These wards do not have the champions that the responsibilities of the trust boards. Board members specialised departments have, who can put pressure on have to be rather more hands-on and need to know management to protect them from cuts. Not much what is going on in their wards. Many obviously do, wonder that nurses in training pass through those but it seems that there are too many who do not. experiences quickly on their way to higher things. Finally, I come to those bodies who will be Nursing sisters in charge may not stay long enough to commissioning services in the bright new tomorrow, be able to stamp their authority and, in any case, are the GP consortia, and the responsibilities that we distracted by paperwork or, nowadays, putting stuff should be placing on them for standards of care in the into their computers—care plans and the like. NHS, under the Health and Social Care Bill coming I fear that these changes have created a situation in through the House—in whatever form that Bill survives. which we have two starkly different standards of care. To paraphrase Aneurin Bevan, there are bed pans On the one hand we have highly trained, highly clanging on the floor all over the country and, in the professional and caring nurses in well staffed specialised rush to devolution to the local level, important though units—intensive care, coronary care, chemotherapy units that is, devolved responsibility must also mean some and the like—and, on the other hand, poorly staffed central accountability. wards, rushed nurses, falling morale, falling standards As these services are commissioned, we must make and poor supervision. These are the staff who are sure that the Bill places a duty on the GP consortia to struggling to cope with patients whose vulnerability make sure that high standards of care for the elderly, makes enormous demands for the care and attention that at least, are a contractual obligation on the providers. the nurses have neither the time nor the patience for. Furthermore, we must have a robust system of monitoring Of course, this picture is not true everywhere and so that we can have some confidence that this care many, probably most, wards and hospitals are very is actually being provided. Perhaps the proposed good indeed. It is just that this picture is too common commissioning board can take this on, but only if it for us to take any comfort from it. has the capacity to monitor what is going on in So what is to be done? Here it is clear that there is a hospitals and nursing homes, and has a mechanism for need for a multifocused set of actions which no one action when standards slip. profession or body can shirk. First, we must have We have been through too many years in which we someone at ward level who takes full responsibility for have seen indifference punctuated by intermittent reports ensuring that patients are properly looked after with and wringing of hands. It has to stop. The time for the respect and dignity that they deserve. That is action is now. absolutely key. I hope that my nursing friends will forgive me for saying that we should be making this job, the ward sister or charge nurse, a career post and 3.07 pm rewarding those who do it accordingly. Viscount Bridgeman: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, on his timely and most important contribution. We have benefited from his Lord Winston: Hear, hear! immense and distinguished experience. The Health and Social Care Bill represents a once Lord Turnberg: My Lords, there has to be some in a lifetime opportunity. However, we must not forget continuity in that post to make it an attractive alternative that it is built on, and expands in much greater depth, to the lofty pastures of the specialised departments. the fundholder initiatives that existed in the National Then there is the issue of too few carers on the Health Service between 1991 and 1997, when they wards. What happened to all those state-enrolled nurses— were stopped in their tracks by the then Secretary of SENs—whose roles were predominantly in the caring State. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, that world and who did not aspire to higher degrees? They that is the last political point I shall make. There were, disappeared in project 2000. Is it possible for us to however, some welcome initiatives introduced by the resurrect the SEN grade and make it attractive again? previous Government, of which two were the creation I hope that some thought can be given to that. of foundation hospitals and the introduction of practice- That leads me to the medical profession, who cannot based commissioning groups. absolve themselves—ourselves—from responsibility for The current reforms under the leadership of my the neglect we are now discussing. They, after all, must right honourable friend Andrew Lansley seek to build see the way their patients are being cared for and, I am on the reforms of the 1990s and the more recent ones afraid, have not raised their voices loud enough. They of the previous Government and to capture the advantages should be leading the charge for proper staffing levels and discard the disadvantages of both. At the heart of on their wards. They should be pressing hard on the the Health and Social Care Bill lies the increased managers of their hospitals. Of course, they really emphasis on bringing the patient into the decision-making must do something about these disruptive rotas that process, and many of the reforms flow from that. Like, are destroying the continuity of care that patients need I am sure, many speakers today, certainly the lay and deserve. speakers, I have canvassed the views of a number of 1401 NHS: Standards of Care[LORDS] NHS: Standards of Care 1402

[VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN] obtain more than two hours as that leaves us with general practitioners and consultants. We can of course relatively little time to discuss an issue about which differ on the overall measure of enthusiasm for the many of us are extremely passionate. However, as an reforms. However, I think it is fair to say that a additional service to your Lordships’ House, he introduced substantial proportion of general practitioners welcome the debate with understanding, passion and compassion the proposed changes, while opinion among consultants and identified some very real and long-standing problems is more evenly balanced, though here, among the in the NHS. I wish to pick up on those as they are of younger age group, the reforms appear to be generally enormous importance. welcomed. As the noble Lord pointed out, over a considerable Among the general practitioners there is the age-old time there has been a deterioration in what I might agony for the conscientious GP as to how much time describe as the culture of care. I say “care” rather than he or she will be required to give up for the management “treatment”because, as he rightly pointed out, specialist, of the consortium, at the expense of treating patients. high-quality, acute treatment is often of a very high The evidence from the early experiences of the pathfinder standard indeed; but in areas such as the one closest to consortia shows that many able practitioners have my heart—care of the mentally ill, whether in the come to terms with this issue and are able to adjust community or in in-patient care of various kinds—or their professional lives around it—and the consortia care of the elderly, as he rightly pointed out, that are at the heart of these reforms. They will take long-term care has often deteriorated because of cultural the place of the primary care trusts. What, then, is the changes in the NHS itself. I shall explain what I mean difference? The main difference, as I see it, is that the by that. PCTs have seriously little clinical input. This, by contrast, will, I hope, be the strength of the consortia, which As the service expanded and became more complex, will be clinically led. These consortia, to which every there was an increasing and necessary focus on general practice will have to belong, will have the management. It became increasingly the case that resources to back up their constituent practices and those who progressed would move into management. will commission secondary care. The noble Lord referred to this. In most professions, The document Liberating the NHS: Legislative such as social work, psychology and particularly nursing, Framework and Next Steps is, I suggest, a model of its if someone wanted to make progress, inevitably they kind. It is readable, positive and forward-looking. I moved out of direct clinical care. For the ambitious wish to speak about one of the specific matters mentioned and capable young nurse, for example—although this in it—the provision of specialist services. It is known state of affairs was not confined to nursing—to make that some disabled charities are concerned that some progress in the profession meant focusing on training specialist low-volume and often expensive services which and development, to move out of direct clinical care they use will be lost. The paper specifically provides and into management, rather than making clinical for this by encouraging consortia to work together to care a long-term career commitment. share such services, and for these to be commissioned For obvious reasons, this disadvantaged the concern by the NHS Commissioning Board. This is but one and commitment of the ambitious and capable young example of the many relatively minor issues which nurse for clinical care; the culture was to move into have been addressed in the paper and demonstrates management. Doctors moved in the other direction. the flexibility of the proposed consortia structure. They continued to focus on clinical care—even when Much has been made of pathways in the paper, and they got into management, they rarely gave up care these are at the heart of the proposals in the relationship, completely—but that meant that they were disadvantaged initially, between the patient and his or her GP. If the when they were good managers. They tended to let go patient cannot be treated within the practice, the GP not of the care side but of the management side, which will negotiate with medical colleagues in the consortium, increasingly became detached from medicine, so doctors who will in turn negotiate with the provider. Note the became disenchanted with the whole process of clinical input at every stage. management. Time does not permit me to make anything but In their different ways, our different professions passing reference to the very welcome initiative proposed found that the domination of management in the to combine many of the functions of healthcare and service took us away to a management culture rather social services under the health and well-being boards. than to a professional culture of devotion and care, The point that the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, made which is what our NHS ought to be about. It is that about the care of the elderly is crucial to this combination. change that we need to find a way to reverse. This is This is a very important and long overdue development. the idea of the reforms that are proposed. They are I asked a GP who had given me considerable help in not necessarily the same as the proposals that will preparing for this debate whether there was any point come forward, and it will be your Lordships’ responsibility that he would like me to make. He said without to try to change things in such a way that the principles hesitation, “The NHS has for far too long tolerated are best expounded in the legislation and ultimately in poor performance by general practitioners”. I suggest its implementation. The challenge is how we move to that this is at the heart of these reforms. less management focus in care and to more clinical focus, and focus on the patient. 3.12 pm We must move to greater local accountability; greater Lord Alderdice: My Lords, we are all indebted to clarity of governance; competition in quality of care the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, for obtaining this and not in the price of care, because that will be set debate. The only unfortunate thing is that he did not down in tariffs; and to ensuring that there is a greater 1403 NHS: Standards of Care[31 MARCH 2011] NHS: Standards of Care 1404 integration and collaboration of the various groups were unregistered, posing a potential risk to patient involved—public, private, and charitable and non- safety. Recently the Mid Staffordshire complaints officer governmental, which often produce good-quality niche stated in evidence to a public inquiry that the ratio of care in various ways. If we can ensure that progress trained nurses to support workers had swung to 40 per and do it together—I hope that the exercise will be cent trained and 60 per cent healthcare assistants over collaborative rather than partisan in your Lordships’ the period 2002 to 2009. That was a change to address House—we will have something to look forward to the £10 million overspend in the trust. despite the difficulties that the noble Lord pointed The move to make nursing a degree-level profession out. by 2013 is an integral step in ensuring that registered nurses and midwives have an academic base to translate 3.16 pm into high-level, quality compassionate care. Baroness Emerton: I thank the noble Lord, Lord Of the nursing commission’s 20 recommendations, Turnberg, for raising this timely debate. Without doubt, I wish briefly to highlight four. The commission said corrective action is required to deal with these issues. that the nursing, midwifery and health-visiting professions They will not go away unless that happens. This fact is should deliver high-quality care and that leaders should reflected in the 57 per cent increase on last year in accept full managerial and professional accountability referrals from the general public to the Nursing and for ensuring that the organisation provides high-quality, Midwifery Council fitness to practice committee in the compassionate care. The boards should ensure that months of January and February this year. The total care champions strengthen the front-line managers—for was 833—a dramatic increase. example, sisters and charge nurses. There was a call for advanced practitioners and healthcare support workers On 3 March, I asked when the Government were to be regulated, protecting the title “nurse” and limiting going to respond to the report of the Prime Minister’s its use to those on the NMC register. This would be commission on nursing and midwifery, published in equivalent to “enrolled nurse”, as has already been March 2010. I declare an interest: I am proud to say mentioned. Another recommendation was that nurses that I am a nurse and that I was on the commission. and midwives should contribute to health and well-being, The Minister replied that he would check where the reducing health inequalities. Government were on the formal reply. I raise this again as no response has been received and because a I hope that Her Majesty’s Government will year was spent by 20 senior and distinguished nurses, respond quickly and positively to the commission’s midwives and health visitors looking at the problems recommendations, which all go towards achieving an that faced us. improved nursing profession that will meet the needs of the community with compassion and with respect Evidence was collected following meetings with the for the elderly. public, stakeholders and students, and left the commissioners in no doubt that a “care quake” was approaching—driven by healthcare trends, social changes, Baroness Northover: My Lords, perhaps I may remind demographic changes, families outsourcing care, growing noble Lords, as I did in the previous debate, that we numbers of people with long-term conditions and the have a very tight time limit in this debate. Therefore, additional complex conditions resulting from the ageing when the Clock reaches “4”, noble Lords will have process. The nursing professions are centre-stage to completed their allotted four minutes. handle the care quake, but must be properly equipped and supplied to deliver truly compassionate care that is skilled, competent, values-based and that respects 3.21 pm patients’ dignity with clear, respectful communication Baroness Sherlock: My Lords, I thank my noble to patients and relatives. friend Lord Turnberg for securing this debate and I We gathered from extensive engagements with the declare a non-pecuniary interest as the next chair of public that they felt strongly that the public image of Chapel St, a charitable enterprise which delivers services the nursing, midwifery and health-visiting professions in partnership with primary healthcare. is out of date and that a new story of nursing is I should like to wave another report at the House. needed. The clearest message was that the traditional This one came out last week. It is from the King’s image of the front-line sister or leader of a community Fund and is called Improving the Quality of Care in nursing service should be restored to the former point General Practice. In fact, it begins where the noble of visible authority and clear leadership role, answering Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, left off, looking at variations the cry, “Who is in charge?”, at front-line level. in care. The report was the result of a major inquiry The commissioners set to work to make conducted over two years by an independent panel. recommendations for the largest single workforce in The panel looked at general practice and found that Europe. There are currently in excess of 625,000 nurses most care is good, which is a relief, but it also found on the register. The NHS nursing and midwifery pay that there is a widespread variation in performance, as bill is £12 billion, with more than £l billion spent on well as gaps in the quality of care delivered by general pre-registration nursing and midwifery education. There practice. The report is full of examples, which I commend is little research on the cost-effectiveness and cost-benefit to the House. It showed variations in the quality of of nursing-led services, and existing research is often prescribing, in the quality of diagnosis—for example, ignored. A recent scoping review commissioned by the one-third of patients with stomach or oesophageal Nursing and Midwifery Council found that there were cancer who required urgent referral to hospital were 300,000 healthcare support workers in the NHS that given non-urgent referrals—and in the rate of referrals. 1405 NHS: Standards of Care[LORDS] NHS: Standards of Care 1406

[BARONESS SHERLOCK] encourage him to reflect on the fact that a wise man The report also highlighted variations in the continuity does not demolish his house while the architects are and co-ordination of care. It showed some significant still sketching the new one. differences. Almost as telling was the fact that it found a 3.26 pm significant problem in accessing public information, Baroness Hollins: My Lords, I, too, am somewhat particularly comparative data, on performance in general daunted about speaking about my interests in this practice. When we consider the avalanche of data debate in such a short time, but I am grateful for the available for almost every other part of the health opportunity. I note that the Care Quality Commission service, that is quite striking, and I should be interested has just published its second annual report. Encouragingly, in hearing the Government’s reaction. it talked about safer services and an upward trend in I see that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, told the the standards of healthcare. Health Service Journal last week that, in response to Noble Lords would expect me, as a former president the report, the Government’s plans to move 80 per of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, to speak about cent of the NHS commissioning budget to GP-led people with mental illness and learning disabilities. I consortia will improve this situation. I am very keen to shall do that but I will focus on the physical health of learn how, and perhaps the Minister will take the people in that group and their access to acute hospital opportunity to explain it to the House. He may not services. That relates to commissioning. Although I do want to go into detail today but I wonder whether I not think that commissioning is the key to all the can encourage him to assure the House that he will problems in the NHS, strong commissioning is important. engage with the King’s Fund, as well as with the Royal At the moment, commissioning largely does not College of General Practitioners and the BMA. I was understand the needs of people with learning disabilities delighted to hear that they both welcome the report, and mental illness, particularly when their needs are so there is a fair wind behind it, but perhaps the complex and they are seeking care in an acute hospital Minister will engage with them in looking at how these setting. I shall try to explain what I mean and will give problems can be tackled. Perhaps, in particular, I two examples. could encourage him to do so before this House starts If we stop to think about maternity services—my to look in detail at the Health and Social Care Bill that noble friend Lord Patel may have a different view—we will be coming before us. find that the most complex kind of maternity case is a For me, this report could be a metaphor for the mother with a severe mental illness. However, the state of the health service: most general practice is current tariff does not cover the mental illness that good; the NHS is good; popular satisfaction has never that mother has and the obstetric department does not been higher; its efficiency is admired; but there are have to purchase mental health services to look after pockets of significant problems, as described by my that mother. That is a real shame, as this is a good noble friend Lord Turnberg. It is clear that performance moment in a woman’s life to attend to her mental and outcomes vary too much. We all want to see health needs and the mental health needs of her child. continuous improvement and we all are open to the That is just one example. idea of changing how healthcare is delivered. However, The Bill sets out clearly the kind of duties that it is not at all obvious to me how the revolution in the commissioners will have in the future and suggests health service, on which the Government are embarking, that commissioners will need to seek advice, but what will necessarily solve these problems. Risks will inevitably kind of advice is not clear. GPs will need to work be taken by such large-scale reform, so not just this closely with their clinical colleagues in different specialisms, House but the country needs to be persuaded that the particularly specialists in mental health, to ensure that changes will produce results that will solve the kind of their patients with mental illness get their ordinary, problems that have been identified. I strongly encourage everyday healthcare needs supported and adequately the Minister to look not just at the specific problems met, and not just their specialist needs. raised but to say why the Government think that their People who do not work in psychiatry often think prescription will cure the ills. That is the challenge for that commissioning for mental illness or learning all of us. disabilities is about buying specialist services somewhere When I thought about what I would talk about else and that it has nothing to do with the rest of the today in my four marvellous minutes, I went back to a health system. That is just not true. There is no health list of notes that I had made at the wonderful all-party without mental health and I am pleased that the seminars that many of us have attended with experts Government’s policy on public health acknowledges in the field, and I found a list of 20 questions to which that. I did not know the answer. It is not simply a list of Because I have less than a minute, I shall turn only questions that I cannot answer, as that would be a briefly to learning disability. Tom Clarke MP spoke in rather greater list, but a list of questions to which the the other place yesterday about the NHS and public experts at these seminars had been unable to find the satisfaction. He spoke extremely eloquently and, since answers after carefully reading the Bill and all the I do not have time to repeat all that he said, I encourage associated documentation. If that is the case, we have noble Lords to read Hansard. He talked about the to question the wisdom of proceeding at the current long history of concern of Mencap and other bodies pace. This House has enormous respect for the integrity about the institutional discrimination that has been and experience of the Minister. I wonder whether he found in the NHS—not a culture of care but a culture could speak to his colleague the Secretary of State and of discrimination. The previous Secretary of State 1407 NHS: Standards of Care[31 MARCH 2011] NHS: Standards of Care 1408 established an independent inquiry into healthcare for dining room. That may seem a ridiculous point, but people with learning disabilities. It came up with some the disadvantage is that, in terms of morale, we cannot important recommendations, including recommendations replace the staff dining room, where we used to discuss for training all healthcare professionals. I would appreciate individual patients with other consultants in order to support from the Minister for such recommendations learn. In science units, restaurants and coffee facilities to be fully implemented when the new Bill comes in. are in every research lab, but they are no longer in hospitals. We should think about that. I have to say 3.30 pm that I learnt my haute cuisine of Indian cooking in such messes. We felt valued members of an institution Lord Winston: My Lords, the points that I shall in a way that we do not now. make are no criticism of the Government; indeed, As the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, said, there is no they are not faults induced by them. If there have been leadership on the ward. Without ward sisters, individual faults, they have been those of healthcare professionals nurses do not feel responsible for all the patients in and the management of the health service. I hope that their care on the ward. Doctors now normally do ward the noble Earl will be able to respond by saying how rounds without the sister present; indeed, it is difficult we can build in these suggestions. This is a strong echo to find a nurse who is free. of what the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, said. He spoke with nobility, dignity and humanity and his I make one final point. Basic nursing has been lost: points were very well made. cleaning patients, caring for them, listening to them, trying to feed them occasionally. Yesterday, I met a Some weeks ago, I brought to the attention of the paediatric nurse at one of the best nursing schools in House my experience at a leading hospital, where I the country.She said: “I got an A in hospital management was faced with a woman in her postnatal period, four and NHS management in my essays, but I cannot days after delivery, with a dangerously high, life- change a paediatric colostomy bag, and that really threatening blood pressure, which no one was dealing worries me”. with—she had not seen a doctor in four days. There was no continuity of care on the ward. When I tried to 3.35 pm speak to the nurses, they were busy at their computers and with their paperwork. Baroness Benjamin: My Lords, I thank the noble I want to talk about the loss of continuity of Lord for securing this debate. Sadly, his opening remarks patient care in the hospital service. The noble Lord, reflect the treatment that my late 80 year-old father Lord Turnberg, talked about halcyon days. Although received during his last months, which were spent in we may not want to return to those days, the old-fashioned hospital. firm system in medical practice was very good: the This debate gives me an opportunity to highlight idea of consultants working in tandem, usually two at the concerns of those with sickle cell disorder as well a time with the same secretarial support, followed by a as of those working with and for patients with the senior registrar, a registrar, house physicians and house disorder. I am a patron of the Sickle Cell Society, so I surgeons, was a good way to ensure continuity.Nowadays, declare an interest. The Sickle Cell Society has a panel we do not even have the privilege of interviewing the of expert medical advisers as well as a board that staff who come on to the team. Because of political includes those who suffer from sickle cell disorder. correctness, they are often appointed. That means that Over the past 30 years, the charity has worked with the we lose a valuable kernel within the health service. NHS and primary care trusts to produce best practice There used to be flexibility about time off. We did guidance on treatment and care based on clinical not go off when a patient was really sick. We had a research and the experience of those with sickle cell detailed handover when we went off, if we had to. We disorder. would make sure that the person to whom we were Sickle cell is the most common genetic blood disorder handing over understood what was going on. We were in the UK and some 300 babies are born with sickle still responsible, as junior doctors, when we were off, cell each year. Yet children and adults are needlessly and would expect to be informed if critical decisions dying from this illness. The two most recent deaths were being made about those whom we regarded as were in the past four months—one as young as four our patients. That ethos and that culture have been years old. The deaths are due to poor access to services, lost, partly because of the European working time poor care, poor treatment and generally poor awareness directive, although that is not the only reason. The of the disorder. The National Confidential Inquiry restrictions on working time, which we have previously into Patient Outcome and Death shows that of the encouraged the Government to think about, have had 19 patients it studied who complained of pain on a massive negative effect not only on training and admission to hospital and who died in hospital, nine experience but on morale and continuity. A “watch the had been given excessive doses of medication, leading clock” attitude has been engendered. to death from the complications that resulted. There used to be general ward rounds for the whole I believe that with the right policies in place and an team, at which the ward sister would be an important understanding of best practice standards, treatment person, together with the general practitioners. Often, and medication, the quality of life for sickle cell patients general practitioners came to the wards, which meant can be dramatically improved. Will the Minister consider continuity in society afterwards. Nowadays, we do not a medical and social awareness campaign, backed up have the same attitude towards the hospital in which by syllabus changes to medic training at royal colleges? we work. We have no hospital nurse, no medical Will he also consider commissioning services to improve porters and no dedicated bedrooms. There is no staff the detection and chronic disease management of patients 1409 NHS: Standards of Care[LORDS] NHS: Standards of Care 1410

[BARONESS BENJAMIN] the care that they get. It may well have improved, but with sickle cell? I am convinced that if these measures the very aged do not respond to these patient surveys, were in place, it would save the NHS millions of and in any case it is their distressed kith and kin we pounds, reduce many deaths as a result of hospital should be surveying to get an accurate picture. My overmedication and reduce children being absent from mother would not let me complain because they fixed school, which produces poor educational performance her hip, did they not? The Patients Association have that in the long term leads to economic disadvantage been flagging up the truth for years and the majority and benefits claims. of senior managers know that Mid Staffordshire Hospital I believe that the doctor-patient relationship is a was not an outlier on the graph by any means. two-way dynamic. Some changes to the current system The usual response to a scandal is to launch an are required in terms of GP education, follow-up, and inquiry, and I have sat on many myself. Typically they long-term involvement with the management of sickle make vast numbers of recommendations that are then cell disorder. Patients and healthcare providers should translated into points for action with a monitoring work together in the proactive management of sickle schedule for ticking off the boxes. Schedules will be cell disorder, rather than dealing with crises on an cascaded and all will get a bit better. There are marginal unplanned basis as and when they arise. improvements locally, but nothing really changes. What The current financial state of the NHS and the is the answer? More inspection? I do not think so. The recent spending review have increased the nervousness CQC knows that the self-monitored standards of dignity of sufferers. Therefore, there need to be reassurances that hospitals claim to have reached are often a fiction. about the funding of provision for sickle cell. Some Inspection never picks up more than a snapshot. believe that the abolition of health targets will have a Unannounced visits are helpful, but they are too infrequent negative impact and that services will not provide and superficial to be realistically helpful. Regulators fairness and equality of access to healthcare services simply cannot substitute for caring staff. More training for all. Therefore, there needs to be NHS specialised that treating old people appallingly is wrong? I do not services commissioning for those with sickle cell disorder, think so. We all know it is wrong, but we learn by with provision for practical home-care support, especially example from our seniors. If that counts as training, home-from-hospital convalescent support to avoid then perhaps training is needed. More geriatricians readmission, the training and deployment of a pool of and psychogeriatricians like me? We need champions community support care workers, information and in medicine and nursing—but no, this is every clinician’s counselling to every patient and carrier in every locality, business, not a specialty. and the monitoring of performance against agreed I agree with many colleagues who have spoken outcome measures. I believe that the Sickle Cell Society before that getting the teamwork and ward processes is well placed to assist the Government in achieving right might help a bit. It is noteworthy that these these measures. episodes of poor care do not occur on specialist wards Sickle cell disorder should be of great concern to where unified teams work together under good leadership. society. It needs our full attention because as more and We have tended to undermine teams on general wards more children are born to parents from different ethnic in the misguided and counterproductive chase for groups and we become more and more integrated, so efficient turnover. I harp back to Professor John Yates’s the more common sickle cell disorder will become. earlier studies, which show that it is vulnerable patient Sickle cell disorder is now the fourth global public health groups, local ward staff left to their own devices and priority, as declared by UNESCO and the World staff not included in team support who fail. Health Organisation in Geneva in May 2006. Please My recipe comes back in part to unannounced let us accord it the priority and respect it deserves. regular inspections by HealthWatch and the regulator and to surveys of family carers. However, hospitals reflect the wider attitudes of society. We should look 3.39 pm properly at the price of care, and we should stop Baroness Murphy: My Lords, I shall hark back to commissioning specialties such as cardiac, cancer and much of what the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, said in renal at a higher tariff on the care price compared his admirable introduction to this topic. The stories in with medicine for the elderly and general surgery. The the ombudsman’s report are so shockingly familiar to funding imbalance is profound and reflects the poor us, yet we still find it very difficult to take in that they value which society puts on the everyday care of the reflect the norm. The National Confidential Inquiry most vulnerable. Therefore, the commissioning sensitivities into Patient Outcome and Death in surgery for elderly that GP consortia will have will be crucial. We know patients found that only 38 per cent got good care. It is from studies in the States that commissioning cannot not just that care is neglectful to the point of cruelty, be the whole answer; it is the providers who are but that families that try to intervene are actively important. However, we should not necessarily ignore discouraged and largely ignored and the denial by commissioning. It is vital, but ultimately it is the care managers is a cultural norm. I found that I could not design in hospitals and structures that really count. save my own mother-in-law from truly appalling care in a suburban London hospital, and my own mother’s recent care in a Midlands teaching hospital was pretty 3.43 pm variable, too, depending on the team that was on duty. Lord Owen: The NHS is dear to us all, and the care I have heard people minimise the significance. and health professions have made a difference to pretty Apparently the NHS has improved over the past few well every family in this country. However, the 353 pages years and patients say that they are very satisfied with of the Health and Social Care Bill are a massive 1411 NHS: Standards of Care[31 MARCH 2011] NHS: Standards of Care 1412 reform, and we should not underrate the basic fatal 3.47 pm flaws in this legislation, although of course there is much that we can all recommend and be pleased to Baroness Pitkeathley: My Lords, I thank my noble see. friend Lord Turnberg and declare two interests as chair of the Specialised Healthcare Alliance and as The health service is a rationed service. A lot of the chair of the Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence. acceptance of and satisfaction with that rationing has come from its democratic basis and the feeling that it However devoted we are to the NHS—I speak as is done in a democratic and acceptable way. That is one who owes her life to it—we must acknowledge challenged by the Bill and by a massive change in the that there are still far too many instances where it falls responsibilities of the Secretary of State. The fatal short. No one could fail to be shocked by the flaw is to move on from the internal market—a reform ombudsman’s report to which many noble Lords have introduced by successive political parties that was referred. The universal standards which we all wish to initially quite controversial but, I believe, has done a see, of a compassionate and skilled service, are by no lot to encourage cost-effectiveness and efficiency in means universal as yet. The dismissive attitudes and the health service—and to cross that threshold to an indifference to deplorable standards encountered in all external market. too many instances must be addressed and, as far as possible, eliminated. I say “as far as possible” because, This Bill needs to be substantially amended, not as a regulator of healthcare, I know only too well that just at Report stage in the other place—it has not yet it is not possible for any form of regulation to bear on been amended in Committee—but when it comes to every safety or quality concern. We are dependent on this House. In my view, it is not in the interests of the quality of the professionals delivering the service anyone to include “any willing provider”, which would and we must judge this always from the experience of inevitably involve EU competition law and legal cases the patient and his or her family. about commissioning decisions. Nor is it in anyone’s interest that we should make costs and pricing the When we think about commissioning as being about basic decision on where a patient is allocated. That improving health outcomes and reducing health would have profound effects on the relationships between inequalities, let us never forget what that means from patients and the general practitioners, consultants and the patient’s point of view. Most will have absolutely managers who have to make these rationing choices. no idea what “improving health outcomes” means. They only know that they want to be treated safely, Deep and fundamental problems underlie this Bill. with dignity and compassion, and have timely and I hope that when it comes to this House we will use the effective treatment. In all the discussions we are currently unusual but nevertheless precedented position of giving having about the reform of commissioning, I am often it a Second Reading but only on condition that it is struck by how remote those discussions seem from the referred to a Select Committee of this House in order actual experience of patients. The test that we must to give it far deeper and more fundamental attention. apply is whether it is better for them, not whether it is This Bill should have had a full pre-legislative committee. better for the Secretary of State, the commissioning It has not got it. Listening to this debate, it seems to board and GP consortia. me that we are not reflecting the anger, disillusionment and despair of many people outside this House about It is also striking how removed our discussions are this legislation. Were the Bill to pass in its present from the facts around patients’ experience, which are form, it would do horrendous damage to the health not linear but confused and complicated—a mixture service—not immediately, but slowly and imperceptibly. of services from health, social care, housing, the voluntary It would also damage the professionalism, care and sector and their own families. This complication of intimacy of the one-on-one patient-nurse and doctor- experience is little recognised, even now when some of patient relationships, which I believe are so essential. us have been trying for 30 years to get it recognised. The question we have to ask is: will the new commissioning Health is not just a commodity to be bought and arrangements deliver that recognition? We do not sold in the market. It is not a utility in which everyone know. should be treated as if they are commodity managers. We must understand that and the fundamental issues What we do know is that every bit of research ever which are being challenged by this Bill. Perhaps they done about changing institutional structures shows are being challenged inadvertently but, nevertheless, that only a part, and usually a small part, of the that is happening. Extensive amendments have already objectives are achieved, and the bigger the upheaval, been talked about. Why was the Bill in that condition? the fewer of those objectives are achieved. Since we I urge this House at Second Reading to refer it to a are largely dependent for quality outcomes on the Select Committee—perhaps for six months until after skill, commitment and—let us not be afraid to use the the Summer Recess. Then we could come back to the word—dedication of our staff, how are we to maximise normal amendments and, if necessary, the ping-pong those and provide them with the support they so between both Houses. Ultimately, I would not hesitate urgently need when, for the next two years at the very to delay this Bill for the statutory period if the House least, their energy will be directed towards the change of Commons does not accept amendment procedure itself in the form of applying for their own jobs, in this House. Fundamental amendments are needed. learning to work with a new set of partners and so on? This is not a minor piece of legislation or a part of the Also, the history of co-operation between GPs and evolutionary change we have had since 1948; it is a social services does not fill me with hope, while the revolutionary change and, in some parts, a very bad lack of co-terminosity between consortia and local change. authorities is certainly not going to be helpful. 1413 NHS: Standards of Care[LORDS] NHS: Standards of Care 1414

[BARONESS PITKEATHLEY] The students are concerned that their competencies We know that the commissioning board will issue are usually decided on just one observation of the skill guidance on commissioning to the consortia, but when required, such as catheterisation or wound care. They is this to happen? Do we not risk a mismatch in would prefer a more rigorous check in order for them timing? Some of the consortia are already willing to to feel competent and confident. On learning to drive go ahead and are following their own rules in the with an instructor, you do not do a three-point turn absence of any from the commissioning board. I hope only once. that the Minister will be able to comment on this. One of the issues lies in the ratio of academic to Also, from the patient’s point of view, we need a great clinical practice. The time spent in contact with patients deal more clarity about what will happen when GP is only 15 weeks in each of the first two years over two consortia refuse to commission a service that a patient placements and 21 weeks over two placements in the requires. Where is the accountability? final year. That is not enough. This is not resulting in As to the voluntary sector, for so long the provider well trained nurses capable of giving good, consistent of good preventive care and services, we hear a great quality care at the point of qualification. deal about organisations being encouraged to take on Image and esteem are important. These have been a greater share in providing public services and for the damaged by the practice of not using the title of commissioners to recognise this. If we are serious “nurse”and the poor national uniform that was introduced about pushing power as close to individuals as possible some years ago. After working for three years to and for citizens and communities to define the priorities become a nurse, people are told not to use the title, but and expectations of public services like the NHS, as to tell patients their first name, which is unprofessional. the big society concept suggests we should, it is certainly The sign above the bed says, “Your nurse is Susan” or important for the voluntary sector to be involved. “Mark”, but not “Nurse Jones” or even “Nurse Susan”. However, many organisations are having their funding That is ridiculous because it is unprofessional and savagely cut, and more than half of them say they are breeds a familiarity that can cause problems. going to have to cut staff in the next three months. The uniforms that nurses wear in most hospitals are Given that, I doubt their capacity. not very professional, with qualified nurses wearing the same uniform with no difference in design to 3.52 pm identify their status. The uniforms are often of poor quality. Nurses have said that they are more like a Lord Rooker: My Lords, there is widespread concern cleaner’s overalls—that is not to degrade cleaners. among nurses, patients and relatives about the many This affects not only the image that the uniforms incidents of poor nursing highlighted in recent years. portray to patients and relatives but also how nurses There are of course many fine examples of high-quality feel about themselves. nursing practice, and I can testify to that from my own One major hospital in the Midlands has recently family experiences. But action now needs to be taken changed its uniform policy, bringing in colours to to improve the state of nurse training and management. identify a nurse’s grade and with the grade embroidered Over the past five years, a nurse friend of mine, Sheila on the uniform. Patients and relatives can now distinguish Try, has been contacting successive Health Ministers, between a staff nurse and the sister in charge. It has Select Committees and others with these concerns, as massively lifted morale, because the nurses feel valued. well as the Chief Nursing Officer, all to no avail. They The ward management points that Sheila has asked have all failed to see that there is a fundamental flaw in me to make are exactly the same, word for word, as the training and management of nurses and that the those made by the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg. The image of nursing has been damaged. The Chief Nursing solution, she thinks, is simple: tackle the way in which Officer commented to Sheila that these, nurses are trained, with more time spent with patients “concerns resonate very well with nurse leaders who I have met and less in the classroom. around the country and with the wide range of people who Nursing needs to be up to date with technology and explain their experiences to the Prime Minister’s Commission, the changing face of disease and management, but ‘Frontline Care’”. essential care is vital to ensure patients’ safety. A That is a clear admission of the points that Sheila and better balance between academia and practical placements other experienced nurses are making. needs to be found. And, yes, Nurse Try would welcome an opportunity to put the case to the Minister direct. Sheila Try is a qualified nurse and a health visitor to BSc standard, and a former senior manager and a 3.56 pm reviewer for the Commission for Health Improvement. She is not someone who wants to turn the clock back, Baroness Tyler of Enfield: My Lords, that is a hard but she is concerned with the basic essentials of nursing. act to follow. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Last week, she met over 70 third-year degree nursing Turnberg, on securing such an important debate at a students at a local university who are due to qualify in time of far reaching reforms to our National Health August. They stated that they, Service. These reforms should be judged by the extent to which they lead, first, to better health outcomes for “do not feel confident or competent to work as staff nurses as the adults; secondly, to consistently higher standards of training has failed to give them the knowledge and skills they care for all; and, thirdly, to a more responsive and need, with clinical placements being too short. There are inconsistencies in clinical practice and Health Care Assistants are doing nursing personalised service. Given the scale and pace of reforms, tasks, including wound dressings, while they as students are doing the most radical in a generation and beyond, it will be Health Care Assistant roles (handing out drinks) when they crucial to give close attention to the quality of care should be being trained in nursing tasks”. during this period of immense change. 1415 NHS: Standards of Care[31 MARCH 2011] NHS: Standards of Care 1416

I would like to illustrate this by talking about the itself left to pick up the pieces because statutory standards of care and commissioning practices within services such as children and adolescent mental health mental health services, still seen in some quarters as a services, which try to do a good job in very difficult Cinderella service. I am indebted to the briefing and circumstances, are vastly oversubscribed with very support that I have received from the charity Mind. long waiting lists. More needs to be done to give this One in four people is likely to experience a mental area higher priority. health problem every year and the cost of poor mental health to the economy is estimated to stand at £105 billion. 4.01 pm As will be well known in your Lordships’ House, Lord Touhig: My Lords, I join others in the House mental health problems are inextricably linked to social in thanking my noble friend Lord Turnberg for securing factors such as debt, unemployment, poverty and poor this debate. In the short time that I have at my disposal, housing. I would like to focus my remarks on one area in The Government’s recent No Health without Mental particular: healthcare and autism. The noble Baroness, Health strategy sets out a clear vision for the future of Lady Browning, and I, together with representatives our mental health services. This is to be welcomed. of the National Autistic Society, recently met the The strategy also makes it clear that the provision of Minister and we were given a very sympathetic hearing high-quality services is dependent on high-quality on matters that concerned us. We thank him for that. commissioning. The National Audit Office’s investigation into public To make a reality of that strategy, it will be important spending on autism found that one of the best ways of to ensure four things: first, that commissioning bodies overcoming the alarming gaps in training, planning have a proper understanding of mental health services and provision across a range of services was to develop and service users; secondly, that mental health services specialist autism teams that could diagnose and support are fully integrated both within the health service and people with autism. It went on to say that, if such across social care, public health and areas such as teams are established, there is the potential to save housing and policing; thirdly, that every opportunity money. It stated that, if local services identified and is taken to increase patient and public involvement supported just 4 per cent of adults with high-functioning and that those who need extra support to get involved autism and Asperger’s syndrome, the outlay would in decision-making are given it; and, finally, that there become cost neutral over time. In addition, it found is parity of esteem between mental and physical health that, if these local services did the same for just 8 per services. cent, the Government could save £67 million per year. In response to a recent survey by the charity, Rethink, The Liverpool Asperger Team, which is the longest- 42 per cent of GPs said that they lacked knowledge standing specialist Asperger’s service, reports an about services for people with mental illness and lacked identification rate of 14 per cent, so 4 per cent is confidence in commissioning those services. The abolition certainly achievable. of the National Mental Health Development Unit this Will the Minister tell the House how teams such as very day will create a real gap in mental health advice the one in Liverpool will be funded if the Health for commissioners and providers. What plans do the and Social Care Bill is passed into law? In the Bill, Government have to fill that gap in expertise? health and social well-being boards have a duty to The Government have recently announced plans to promote integrated working and, as such, would lead invest around £400 million over four years to ensure on commissioning specialist services. However, the that adults with depression and anxiety across England White Paper published in July states that the NHS have access to a wider range of effective psychological Commissioning Board will take responsibility for therapies. This investment will also enable the expansion commissioning specialised services at both national of much needed psychological therapies for young and regional level, as informed by the specialised people, older people, people with severe mental health services national definitions set. These sets contain problems and people with long-term physical health definitions of 34 services. Definition 22 covers specialist conditions. All this is greatly to be welcomed but it is mental health services and includes specialised services vital that this funding is not seen in these tough for Asperger’s syndrome and autism spectrum disorder. financial times as an opportunity to cut existing mental There is clearly a difference between the White Paper health services. and the legislation on how specialist autism teams will As already referred to, only this week the Care be commissioned to carry out their work. Will the Quality Commission released its latest report on the Minister say whether the NHS Commissioning Board state of health and adult social care. I was concerned or, at local level, the health and well-being board will to see that, despite the welcome advances across the be responsible for this commissioning work? board, care standards for people experiencing mental Each of the commissioning scenarios is not without health problems are being left behind, particularly in problems. First, specialist teams are often commissioned acute and crisis mental health care. through pooled budgets. There is concern that, if I would have liked to have finished by saying a few 80 per cent of the commissioning budget sits with the more words about the commissioning of children’s GP consortia but the health and well-being boards are mental health services—an area that I know something responsible for commissioning the joint services, the about. I am chief executive of the charity Relate, a major budget holders—the GPs—may not commission declared interest of mine, which has experience of services whose primary benefit in the short or medium providing what is called early intervention counselling term will be the local authorities. The commissioning services. Time will elude me, but the one thing that I problems could potentially become more complicated will say is that far too often the voluntary sector finds when health and well-being boards have a number of 1417 NHS: Standards of Care[LORDS] NHS: Standards of Care 1418

[LORD TOUHIG] of cancer diagnosis in the UK than in better-performing consortia in their areas. It is possible that the GP countries such as Sweden. This is due to later diagnoses consortia might take a free ride and not contribute. in the UK; when patients in the UK are diagnosed Secondly, if these services are commissioned through with cancer, it is more often at an advanced stage the specialised services national definitions set at regional where survival is shorter. level, that could make it more difficult for the teams to The coalition Government published in January respond to local needs and integrate themselves into Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer. This strategy each local authority that they serve. aims to deliver health outcomes that are among the The draft NICE guidelines on diagnosis, recognition best in the world. It aims to do this alongside the and referral of autism in children and young people seismic reforms that are taking place in healthcare in call for local teams to be created in each area. Teams England. These new reforms as they stand rely on such as the ones in Liverpool and Bristol are doing high-quality information and organisation of cancer first-class work. A key way of getting over this problem services. The strategy does not ensure the continued of commissioning specialist teams is to strengthen the existence of cancer networks, but says that, role of the health and well-being boards in creating “it is likely that GP consortia will purchase services from a new pooled budgets and to ensure that the NHS style of cancer network”. Commissioning Board can intervene in any disputes That does not go far enough. Cancer networks are over these budgets. I appreciate that this is a major essential organisations to ensure the delivery of improved problem still to be solved and I hope that the Minister cancer outcomes and, in particular, the geographical will respond to that and to my other questions. areas that allow robust outcome data to be derived. The centralisation of cancer services since the NHS 4.04 pm cancer plan has helped to deliver improvements in Lord Patel: My Lords, good healthcare systems cancer outcomes. The National Cancer Intelligence deliver good standards of care and good commissioning Network is now providing detailed cancer outcome should reflect that. I would like to focus on cancer, the data according to network, PCT and age. These powerful insights that it offers into the performance of our data can be used to improve outcomes. healthcare system and the challenges that it poses in Much of the variation in outcomes in cancer is due the new healthcare structure. The proportion of deaths to late diagnosis or referral by general practitioners. attributable to cancer has risen from 17 per cent in There is no process in place for assessing the quality of 1948 to 27 per cent in 2008. It is predominantly a GPs in the assessment of patients with potential cancer disease of the elderly. Alongside its human impact, symptoms. The Teenage Cancer Trust survey reveals cancer is also costly. The National Audit Office estimates that one in four teenage cancer patients visited their the cost as £6.3 billion and the total cost to society as GP four or more times before referral to hospital. £18.3 billion. These costs will rise as the population Without cancer networks, there is a danger that the ages and new treatments are developed. cheapest services will be purchased that meet basic but Cancer survival is a key metric of the performance not world-class quality standards. Healthcare is a and quality of healthcare systems. It is a function of complex process and we will never be able to define the population awareness of cancer symptoms, primary and record every metric that will contribute to high-quality and secondary care assessment and referral, treatment outcomes. I hope that the Minister will confirm today quality and effective screening programmes. Each year that there are no plans to abolish the cancer networks. around one in three people is diagnosed with cancer and one in four will die of cancer. 4.09 pm The Lancet in January 2011 compares the survival Lord Warner: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble of patients diagnosed in England, Wales, Northern friend for securing this warm-up debate before the Ireland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Australia and Government’s legislative juggernaut reaches this House. Canada. All these countries have comprehensive cancer In the time available, I want to confine myself to registration and broadly similar healthcare spending talking about commissioning because good commissioning and systems. The study examined relative survival—the has a significant impact on achieving good service excess deaths due to cancer after allowing for competing standards. For 20 years, we have been trying to establish causes of death—from 1995 to 2007. Despite the an effective NHS commissioning system. Ken Clarke’s improvement in cancer survival in the UK, the survival GP fundholding and partial purchaser/provider split gap—the difference between the UK and the best- was followed by Labour’s PCT commissioner model, performing nations—appeared to have showed only again without a full purchaser/provider split. Just for some narrowing in breast cancer but was static in good measure, I added on a practice-based commissioning colorectal and ovarian cancer and worse in lung cancer. dimension in 2006 which many PCTs were pretty The difference in survival in lung cancer is equivalent effective at thwarting. Now we are to have another to at least 1,300 avoidable deaths each year if we legislative go. That is a summary of the history of matched the best in Europe. It has been estimated that commissioning. this survival gap from England to the best-performing All too often, PCT commissioners have lacked the countries in Europe for all cancers accounts for 10,000 know-how, competence and muscle to commission avoidable cancer deaths each year. effectively. Too often, they have been unable to manage The healthcare system in the UK is not improving demand, keep in check acute hospital expenditure and at a fast enough rate to narrow the survival gap. This hold hospitals to account. We know from the Care accounts for thousands of avoidable deaths each year. Quality Commission data that there are too many A far greater proportion of people die within one year PCTs with poor track records on quality and financial 1419 NHS: Standards of Care[31 MARCH 2011] NHS: Standards of Care 1420 management. The House of Commons Health Select the commissioning regime. Indeed, I congratulate all Committee’s excellent reports on PCT commissioning speakers in this debate. On this occasion, the point of make for depressing reading. It is not, in my view, my noble friend’s remarks was possibly, “We’re all in unreasonable to decide that PCTs have had their chance this together”, in dealing with the standards of care. and failed overall, so we should try a more clinically However, he also said that we face some major challenges driven model of commissioning, as the Government here, which are the challenges that he posed, as did wish to do. In many ways, this is a logical development several other noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, from practice-based commissioning. However, the Lady Emerton and Lady Hollins, and my noble friend Government must learn the lessons of past mistakes in Lady Sherlock. The question is: will the Bill help or designing a new commissioning model if they are not not? simply to repeat those mistakes. I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Owen, to both this The population size of many commissioning bodies debate and our wider discussions. I look forward to has been too small for effective health-risk pooling. reading his pamphlet, Fatally Flawed, this weekend, When I hear the BMA say that there is a new and I suggest that the Minister might choose to do the commissioning consortium with a population of same. However, I will resist the temptation to join the 18,000 people, I despair. I managed to reduce the noble Lord in what would be a Second Reading speech. number of PCTs from 302 to 150, but could not secure I start by quoting a young woman who works in agreement politically to go down to 50. That would healthcare and who spoke last Saturday to between have given us commissioning bodies with populations 200,000 and 500,000 people—personally, I think it of about half a million to 1.5 million people. I believe was nearer the latter. In many ways, her simple eloquence that is the kind of population we should be looking for says it all about how thousands of dedicated health in commissioning the full range of services that the workers feel. She said: “I am an NHS physiotherapist Government wish to give to those kinds of consortia. and have been for 13 years. My patients are people The amount of high-quality commissioning capability living with complex disability from conditions such as in the NHS that we had in 2005 was insufficient to MS, brain injury, spinal cord injury and stroke. I work service the number of bodies involved. That remains with a wonderful team of NHS workers such as the case today and the added trouble is that the occupational therapists, speech therapists, psychologists amount of money available to pay for them has become and rehab assistants, as well as social workers, to even smaller in size. support our patients to overcome barriers to their When the Bill comes to this House, we are going to independence, often supporting them back to work have to probe the area of commissioning forensically. and working with their carers to support them to stay We will need to ensure that there is a proper system in their homes for as long as possible … David Cameron of licensing or accrediting commissioners, however told you all in his election campaign that he would ‘cut the function is organised. We need to ensure that the deficit, not the NHS’. Well, if 50,000 frontline commissioning bodies have the data collection and the NHS posts at risk doesn’t count as a cut, I shudder to analytical, financial, contracting and clinical expertise think what does … For the sake of my patients, I fear to commission safely and cost-effectively the range of the introduction of ‘any willing provider’. I fear that it services that they will be legally required to commission will fragment services, will make the postcode lottery with about £60 billion of public money a year, on of care worse, and the most vulnerable patients, those present estimates. The national commissioning board least able to stick up for themselves—the kind of must have the authority and capacity to prevent people patients I treat every day—will be hit the hardest. without the competence to commission getting their Good quality patient care relies on good communication. hands on big slugs of public money. The board has to How can we guarantee this, when services that currently be able to remove and replace inefficient, incompetent work together are pitched into direct competition or overspending commissioners in a timely way. Those against each other? … In parts of the country, physios are the kind of issues we should be considering when are already starting to see the rationing of care to just we come to that Bill. one or two treatment sessions, regardless of need … In conclusion, as a former commissioner of social This is not the NHS I signed up to work for. I don’t care I found it jolly useful to have a diversity of service believe it is the kind of NHS that people in this providers so, unlike a number of people, I congratulate country want”. the Government on going for a bit more competition In this short response to the debate I am going to and extending the market for providers—not just from argue that we would not start here with reform and I the private sector but with good providers from within will ask some questions about the risks to standards of the NHS and good mutuals, of which I suspect we will the proposed commissioning system. I put a plea to see a lot more in future. We will have a lot of time to the Minister: could we perhaps have some new words discover what the Government’s thinking is on some in his answers to these debates? I have looked back at of these issues as we take the Bill forward in this the debates and discussions in the House since the House. White Paper was published last July, and time after time the Minister has stuck admirably to the Andrew Lansley brief, with what is becoming the famous NHS 4.14 pm techno-jargon that weaves a web of words but really Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I start by thanking does not serve to comfort, or even leave one any the my noble friend for initiating this debate and for wiser. It is very noticeable that when the Minister emphasising the importance of standards of care and comes off script and is back to his old, clever self, we of the effect on patients of the proposed changes to prefer it and I, for one, understand things better. 1421 NHS: Standards of Care[LORDS] NHS: Standards of Care 1422

[BARONESS THORNTON] and commissioners. A theme that runs throughout We are nearing the point, after many questions and these areas is concern about the involvement of GPs sustained criticism from professionals, patients and and the ability of relevant commissioners to secure even the Minister’s partners in the coalition, when we appropriate clinical input when commissioning services. need some real answers to real concerns, not least on the commissioning that is the subject of this debate. The Kings Fund report of the beginning of March Notwithstanding the progress of the Health and Social highlights the need for strong, strategic commissioning Care Bill, I invite the Minister to agree that there is no to reconfigure some services such as cancer, cardiac doubt that the period 2011-14 is likely to be the most and stroke care across large geographical areas. It challenging ever faced by the NHS. The NHS is faced argues that this will not be delivered by the Government’s with the challenge of producing £20 billion in efficiency health reforms, which will abolish the strategic health savings, putting considerable pressure on the system to authorities currently responsible for leading this work maintain current standards of care. Given those and leave GP consortia to fill the gap, which they are constraints, we on this side of the House are still of unlikely to be able to fill—to which I add that that will the view, perhaps even more so now, that this is not probably be the case for at least 10 years or so. the right time to embark on the largest structural Briefly, on long-term and specialist conditions, reorganisation in NHS history, which includes scrapping throughout the debates since last July various advocates those layers of the NHS structure with real experience and campaigning organisations on almost every long-term of commissioning—family care trusts and strategic condition have commented on the proposed reform. health authorities—and putting the power in the hands The Minster must accept that the Alzheimer’s Society, of untested and inexperienced consortia. the cancer campaigns, diabetes organisations and many I am not saying that PCTs and SHAs have been others are very worried about the commissioning for unfailingly brilliant; in some cases, they have not even their conditions becoming fragmented and incoherent, been good or average. There was and is significant to say nothing of end-of-life care and, for example, room for improvement, and I think we would all agree treatment for children with very serious conditions. on that. Most notably, clinical leadership and engagement The Government are asking those who have fought in PCTs has often been weak, local accountability has long and hard for recognition of and improvement in been lacking and imbalances in status and power that the treatment and care of people to take on trust that exist between commissioners and providers appear to everything will be okay. The Minister needs to accept have limited substantially the former’s ability to influence that this clamour about commissioning, although we service provision, to say nothing of the lack of clinical are joining it, is not motivated by Her Majesty’s presence in the whole process. However, we believe Opposition being oppositionist; it is about a long list that it would have been better to tackle this problem of concerns, questions and anxieties that we have to rather than to turn the whole NHS upside down. address without the proposed revolution. I look forward What of the transition? Responsibility for maintaining to the Minister’s reply. and improving the quality of services will fall initially to the new PCT clusters. At a time of major 4.23 pm re-organisational transition it will be especially important to have in place adequate performance measures supported The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, by transparent and robust mechanisms, through which Department of Health (Earl Howe): My Lords, I begin the GP consortia and PCT clusters can account to by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, for tabling local people for the quality and performance of local a Motion which has occasioned such a fascinating and health services. I do not see how this can be achieved often moving debate. As has happened previously, the when PCTs are being decimated either by the efficiency breadth and depth of the contributions create their cuts or people jumping ship to work elsewhere. Perhaps own problem in that, when there is such a short time the Minister can say how he thinks this will be achieved. available for me to reply, I am up against the clock. To We know that PCTs are responsible for commissioning the extent that I am unable to answer specific questions a range of primary, community, secondary and tertiary today, I apologise but I will of course happily follow health services, often in partnership with local them up in writing. authorities—for instance, in mental health—and, indeed, There are many reasons why we believe it is necessary other PCTs, through networks or consortia for specialised to modernise the National Health Service. With rising services, and primary care clinicians through practice- costs of new treatments, an ageing population and based commissioning. That has already been mentioned rising public expectations, the system is simply not by the noble Lord, Lord Patel—cancer networks being sustainable in its present form. Most importantly, one of these. This is a complex landscape and it is however, the NHS must modernise in order to focus about to become even more so. It will grow a whole relentlessly on what matters most to patients: improving new bureaucracy of its own if the competition which health outcomes. In so many ways it is a wonderful the Government intend to put at the heart of the Bill, service, but we know that it can do better and we whatever one believes about that, is as envisaged. believe that it must do better. For our ambition is not The majority of concerns with the health Bill in limited to maintaining the current quality of services, relation to commissioning of services fall into five broad it is far greater—to have health outcomes that are areas: multidisciplinary commissioning; commissioning consistently among the very best in the world. I suggest of long-term conditions; specialist commissioning; a to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, who said that lack of national guidance leading to fragmentation; now was not the time to do any of this, that the and communication and co-ordination between providers financial situation that we face provides even more of 1423 NHS: Standards of Care[31 MARCH 2011] NHS: Standards of Care 1424 a reason to modernise swiftly. I hope that she and framework. The Health and Social Care Bill contains other noble Lords will agree with me that this debate is a new duty of quality. The NHS Commissioning really about quality. Board and GP consortia will be required continually The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, began by raising to improve the quality of NHS services. Underpinning the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman’s that, the Care Quality Commission will regulate providers report, Care and Compassion? I am sure that all of us on safety and quality, with wide-ranging enforcement can identify with the concerns that he raised about powers to protect patients should providers fail to nurse training and accountability for what happens on meet requirements. Accountability works in its fullest the hospital ward. I am sure I was not alone in being sense only if there is transparency. We will publish very moved by the noble Lord’s speech. I fully intend clear, easy to understand information on the quality of that we should learn from the ombudsman’s report, healthcare services and the progress being made to which is why its findings have been highlighted to reduce health inequalities. We also propose, subject to NHS boards and why the Care Quality Commission the passage of the Bill, that the NHS Commissioning will be commencing unannounced inspection visits Board be able to make payments to consortia in shortly. However, I also submit that the changes that recognition of the outcomes they achieve collaboratively we are making to the NHS—placing the patient at the through commissioning and the effectiveness with which heart of everything we do—will help to guard against they manage their financial resources. this happening in the future. How will quality be driven through the commissioning As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, rightly reminded system? Quality standards, prepared by NICE, will be us, effective commissioning is a key piece of the jigsaw. at the centre of it. Quality standards bring clarity to Currently, commissioning decisions are taken by primary quality, providing definitive and authoritative statements care trusts—remote organisations that frankly few of high-quality care, based on evidence of what works people have heard of and fewer still understand. We best. Quality of care does not cover just the effectiveness propose to hand responsibility for commissioning to of that care but also includes patient safety and patient GP-led consortia. Why are we doing so? It is because experience. The three domains of quality are GPs and their clinical colleagues are the people who interconnected: they cannot exist in isolation. The best understand the health needs of their local populations, Royal College of Physicians reflected on this point in and, in partnership with healthcare professionals from its response to the consultation on the NHS outcomes across primary, community and secondary care, they framework and acknowledged that healthcare that is are ideally placed to design clinical services that provide not safe could not be described as efficient, effective or more effective, integrated and preventive care. sustainable. Our reforms will allow a re-established NICE to Lord Davies of Stamford: I am very grateful to the produce a broad library of quality standards that will Minister for giving way. Will the present system of cover the majority of NHS services. NICE will also “choose and book”, which seems to me to be working develop quality standards for social care and public extremely well, be perpetuated under the new health. The Secretary of State and the NHS commissioning consortia regime? Commissioning Board will be able to commission quality standards jointly, which will open up the Earl Howe: Yes, my Lords. However, if the noble opportunity for standards to cover the whole care Lord will forgive me, I do not propose to take many pathway, from public health interventions in primary interventions as the time is limited. As I say, the care through to rehabilitation and long-term support answer to his question is yes. in social care, and will support the integration of Those who question the effectiveness of these health and social care services. It is important to arrangements should focus on the new framework of understand that quality standards will do more than accountability that we are proposing as it is central. just bring clarity to quality: they will have real traction The new NHS will be more directly accountable than within the system, underpinning the duty of quality it is now. Because of that our reforms introduce a and linking with the new best practice tariffs that will stronger national framework for driving quality see providers paid more for better care. improvement than ever before. How will this accountability GP consortia will have a duty to support the NHS work? The Secretary of State will hold the NHS Commissioning Board in continuously improving the Commissioning Board to account for delivery against quality of primary medical care services. That does the NHS outcomes framework, published in December. not alter the board’s overarching responsibility for The NHS Commissioning Board will then hold individual commissioning GP services and holding GP contracts. consortia to account for their performance against But it does mean that consortia will play a systematic the indicators set out in the more locally focused role in helping to monitor, benchmark and improve commissioning outcomes framework. There was the quality of GP services, including through clinical widespread and strong support for such a framework governance and clinical audit. It means also that consortia during our consultation. will have a core role in improving patient care across The NHS Commissioning Board will decide on the the system. That will include both the quality and shape and content of the commissioning outcomes accessibility of the care that GP practices provide and framework over the next two years, working closely the wider services that consortia commission on behalf with emerging consortia and with professional and of patients. patient groups. To help maintain momentum, the Where does the Secretary of State sit in all this? The department will shortly publish a discussion document, Health and Social Care Bill strengthens the accountability seeking more detailed views on possible features of the of the Secretary of State to Parliament for the provision 1425 NHS: Standards of Care[LORDS] NHS: Standards of Care 1426

[EARL HOWE] On that theme, the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, of the comprehensive health service. For the first time, asked how consortia will be authorised, given their the Secretary of State will have to report each year on different states of readiness. The pathfinder programme the performance of the health service, consult on the is, I think, central to sharing learning across emerging annual objectives set for the NHS through a mandate, consortia, and it is a crucial part of their development and lay both documents before Parliament. The NHS to take on full commissioning responsibilities. Consortia Commissioning Board will be accountable to the Secretary will not have statutory responsibility for commissioning of State for delivering against that mandate. until April 2013, so the intervening period will allow Nursing has been a strong theme in the debate. all consortia to be ready by that time. The noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, asked when the We listened to an impassioned speech from the Government’s response to the report of the commission noble Lord, Lord Owen, who criticised the Health and on nursing will be published. I can assure her that the Social Care Bill on a number of fronts. Time prevents Government will respond soon to the commission’s me setting out a detailed set of counterarguments but report and I apologise for not having given her an perhaps I may just say to him that we have tabled undertaking to that effect sooner. The noble Lord, amendments to the Bill that will put beyond doubt Lord Turnberg, and the noble Lord, Lord Winston, that competition will be on the basis of quality and raised concerns about nursing standards in hospitals. not price. Far from challenging the principles of the As they know, we now have matrons in post. They NHS, we have consistently made it clear that we are have a specific remit for quality of patient experience absolutely committed to a comprehensive National and should be accessible to patients and carers. Matrons Health Service which is free at the point of use and is are directly accountable to directors of nursing, who based on need rather than ability to pay. Nothing in should present ward-to-board reports. We launched our plans changes that. the Principles of Nursing Practice in November last year. This sets out an agreed set of standards and The noble Lord criticised the policy of “any willing behaviours that were developed by the Royal College provider”, or “any qualified provider” as we are now of Nursing in association with patient groups. These calling it, because we think that that is a better description principles reinforce the NHS constitution. of the policy. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, did the same. “Any qualified provider” is about empowering The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, asked about the patients and carers, improving their outcomes and duty of consortia to improve the quality of care for experience, enabling innovation, and freeing up clinicians older people. There is no specific duty in the Bill to drive change and improve practice. Introducing a relating to consortia and older people. However, we choice of any qualified provider will give patients propose a new duty for consortia to seek continuous more control. That is what all the research evidence improvements in the quality of services for patients tells us they want and increasingly expect from the and in outcomes, with particular regard to clinical NHS. Why should not someone with MS be able to effectiveness, safety and patient experience. That extends choose the physiotherapist they want and be treated at to all aspects of care. the time and in the setting that best suits their need? The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, spoke about Why should not a patient, at the end of their life, the recent King’s Fund report. The report highlights choose their hospice provider? Patients are already particular variation in relation to patient involvement able to choose from any provider that meets NHS in decision-making, and in co-ordination and continuity standards and prices when they are referred for a first of care. It also highlights the need for changes in out-patient appointment to a consultant-led team. leadership and culture. We have a strong system of That was an innovation brought in by the previous general practice in this country, but we agree absolutely Government. “Any qualified provider” will extend that with the report that there is too much variation in principle to more providers and more services, including quality.This reinforces the case for GP decommissioning, social enterprises and charities, particularly in community because one of the key aims behind the development care. For the life of me, I cannot see what is wrong of GP commissioning is for consortia to play a central with that. Money will follow the patient and the role in helping to reduce variation and drive up the choices they make about where and by whom they are quality of general practice. There will be strong incentives treated. for GP consortia to want to tackle these variations, The noble Lord, Lord Owen, indicated his belief because with lower-quality primary care one achieves that the policies that the Government are advancing poorer outcomes for patients and one has greater will damage clinical professionalism and remove the pressure on more expensive secondary care services. intimacy inherent in the doctor/patient relationship. I The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, questioned say to the noble Lord gently and with huge respect whether the Government were allowing enough time that I do not believe he has any basis whatever for to see whether the changes would work. With the suggesting that. I would argue, on the contrary, that introduction of shadow bodies and early implementers, clinically-led commissioning brings the design of services we are allowing almost three years to consult, to closer to patients. dry-run and to put our reforms into practice on the ground, so that by 2013 the new organisations will have had time to secure capability collectively. Therefore, Lord Owen: Will the Minister ensure that the phrase it is wrong to say that the house is being demolished; “any qualified provider”will not involve EU competition in many senses, we are refashioning some parts of the policy and the possibility of legal action being taken existing edifice. in a commissioning decision? 1427 NHS: Standards of Care[31 MARCH 2011] Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny 1428

Earl Howe: The department has sought legal advice and others. That collaboration works to promote on that point and the strong consensus is that the integrated working across secondary and social care. NHS, as we envisage it initially, will not be subject to The outcomes and lessons from this work will be made EU competition law. It is not at the moment, as the available to inform the implementation of the new noble Lord will know, although of course the situation commissioning arrangements. can change over time. This is an interesting, and rather My noble friend Lady Benjamin asked a number of esoteric, area of debate but I do not think that it questions about sickle cell. Again, I should like, if I impacts— may, to take full advice from my department about the points she raised and write to her. Noble Lords: Oh! Our reforms are ambitious and challenging but we have been heartened by the enthusiasm that we have Earl Howe: I mean that it becomes rather technical. found among clinicians, especially among those already However, I do not think that it impacts on the central taking increasing levels of responsibility through the point that I was seeking to make, which was to argue new consortia. There are now 177 GP pathfinders that the noble Lord’s contention that the doctor/patient involving more than 5,000 GP practices, covering more relationship would be damaged does not stand up. To than 35 million people across England. I am confident me, the principle of shared decision-making—“no that by empowering clinicians to innovate and deliver decision about me without me”—will bring about an health services we can continue to address the healthcare even closer partnership between clinicians and patients. needs of this country and move towards delivering The noble Lord, Lord Patel, spoke about cancer outcomes that are indeed consistently among the best services. GP consortia will be well placed to commission in the world. the majority of cancer services and GPs have a crucial role to play to achieve earlier diagnosis of cancer. As a 4.44 pm first step in relation to cancer services, we will work Lord Turnberg: My Lords, this has been a fascinating with GP consortia and pathfinders to identify and debate and I am enormously grateful to noble Lords provide the sort of data that they will find useful to for many outstanding speeches. I have learnt a lot. I commission cancer services effectively. We will provide am only sorry that we had such a short time—each GP consortia profiles of services and outcomes for speaker had only four minutes—but I am constantly their local populations—for example, cancer survival amazed at how noble Lords are able to pack in so rates, the use of the two-week urgent referral pathway, much useful information in such a short time. The uptake of screening and use of inpatient beds. We will noble Earl, as one might expect, was eloquent and be benchmarking the data against similar consortia so convincing, but it remains to be seen how many he has that they will know what needs tackling to improve convinced around the House. I am sure that he is as outcomes in their areas. However, as the noble Lord aware as I am that these are not the last words we will will know, we have also earmarked a great deal of hear on these matters. With those few comments, I beg money to ensure that our plans for earlier diagnosis— leave to withdraw the Motion. giving GPs direct access to key diagnostic tests, for example—will assist in the process. He asked about Motion withdrawn. cancer networks. They have had a crucial role in improving the quality of cancer treatment. I quite agree with him. They have helped commissioners, Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny: EUC Report providers and patients to work together to plan and Motion to Endorse deliver high-quality cancer services. GP consortia will need commissioning support and cancer networks will 4.44 pm be well placed to provide that. The department has said that next year there will be funding for cancer Moved by Lord Roper networks to support commissioning. The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, asked about the That this House endorses the proposal of the commissioning of autism services. The health and European Union Committee for Future inter- well-being board will be the key vehicle by which parliamentary scrutiny of EU foreign, defence and commissioners and local authorities can work together, security policy, and requests the Lord Speaker or ensuring that services that cross health and social care her representative to present it to the EU Speakers’ can be effectively commissioned. The noble Lord raised Conference in April 2011. (7th Report, HL Paper 85) a number of valid points about how these arrangements for autism services will work in practice. I suggest that Lord Roper: My Lords, this Motion endorses the I cover those in a detailed letter. seventh report of your Lordships’ European Union The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and my noble Committee, which I chair. The proposal sets out the friend Lady Tyler questioned the ability of consortia arrangements which we would like to put in place for to commission mental health. We recognise the need the inter-parliamentary scrutiny of the common foreign, for GP commissioners to collaborate with their clinical security and defence policy of the European Union, colleagues and one of the key initiatives in mental following the winding up of the Western European health derives from the new joint commissioning panels Union, and therefore its Assembly. set up in partnership between the Royal College of The proposal is in the same terms as one approved Psychiatrists, the Royal College of General Practitioners, by the other place, on the basis of a report from its the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, Foreign Affairs Select Committee, on 10 March. I am 1429 Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny[LORDS] Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny 1430

[LORD ROPER] “would minimise costs, while adding value to the work that each grateful to that committee and its chairman, and to national parliament does on its own in this field”. the House of Commons European Scrutiny and Defence Under our proposal, all the European Union national Committees for their informal co-operation, which Parliaments and the European Parliament, but only has allowed the committees of both Houses to come those Parliaments, would have full membership of the to a common position on the matter. COFADS body. Parliaments of official European Union It might be of assistance to the House if I briefly set candidate members would be automatically invited as out the context for the Motion before the House observers—that is, Croatia, Macedonia, Iceland and, today. As many noble Lords will know, the member importantly, Turkey. We make it clear in our proposal states of the Western European Union decided this that it would be possible for other countries to be time last year that the organisation should be dissolved invited on the decision of the presidency. In speaking with effect from the middle of 2011. I need not tell this to the matter next week, I shall of course refer particularly House that the Western European Union and its Assembly to the case of the other European members of NATO, has played a valuable and unique role giving international especially Norway, which has made strong representations parliamentary oversight of European security and to us on this subject. Delegations from each country defence matters. About 30 years ago, in the 1970s, I would consist of a maximum of six delegates per myself served in the Assembly and was a chairman of Parliament, including the European Parliament. That its defence committee, so I know its work in that would be three per Chamber in the case of a bicameral period very well. Parliament such as our own. More recently, as the first head of the Western The proposal is that the new body, COFADS, would European Union Institute for Security Studies, which meet once in every presidency; that is, twice a year. We was co-located in the Assembly building, I have seen propose that the meetings should as a general rule be how many noble Lords have contributed actively to held in Brussels or in the presidency country; but we the work of the Assembly over the years, and I pay full feel that there would be some advantage in it not tribute to the important work which they have done. necessarily meeting in the European Parliament, to make quite clear that it is a distinct body of national The question now before us is: what should be done Parliaments rather than something else. Organisational to replace it? The inter-governmental nature of decision- responsibility would be borne by the Parliaments of making in the common foreign and security policy the troika countries—the country holding the presidency, and the common security and defence policy of the the country about to hold the presidency and the European Union means that parliamentary scrutiny country that had just held the presidency. They would of those policies should not be left to the European be responsible for providing the secretariat function Parliament. The significance of the CFSP and the with support from the secretariat that already exists in CSDP activities is that those are decisions made by the Brussels and services COSAC, the conference of the European Council, which is of course made up of national European committees of the Parliaments of Foreign Ministers from the member states, who are the European Union. held to account by their national Parliaments. It is This is the position of the European Union Committee therefore important that national Parliaments should and it has already been endorsed by the other place; be aware of and share in considering those matters at and, as I said, next week I will go to Brussels for the a European level. Speakers’ conference, and if the House agrees to the As we state in our report, the European Union Motion on the Order Paper, it will be the position of Committee is of the view that it is vital that some both Houses of the UK Parliament. The Speakers’ forum for inter-parliamentary debate on these matters conference makes its decisions on the basis of consensus. is maintained in the post-WEU period, with national Finding a consensus in advance of the conference has Parliaments taking the lead. The issue of how the so far not been totally straightforward. However, I am forum should be structured is the principal subject for pleased that a significant majority of other European discussion at next week’s conference of European Union national Parliaments broadly support the position Union Speakers’ in Brussels. As is indicated in the outlined in your Lordships’ committee’s report. Motion, we ask for the House’s endorsement of the On 24 February, the Belgian Parliament, as host of committee’s approach today, so that when, next Monday, the forthcoming Speakers’ conference, circulated a I will be representing the Lord Speaker, I will have a draft proposal for the future of the CFSP and the mandate to agree to new arrangements. CSDP scrutiny—noble Lords may have seen it in the The proposals are set out in full in our report, but I very useful debate pack which the Library prepared shall refer only to the principal points. We propose for today’s debate. The proposal was a significant way that the successor body should be a European Union away from the position that I have outlined today. It inter-parliamentary conference on foreign affairs, defence envisaged, in particular, a significantly greater role for and security, with the acronym of COFADS. It should, the European Parliament than we would be prepared “secure continued inter-parliamentary scrutiny of this area of EU to accept, notably with the European Parliament holding activity”, a permanent co-presidency of the conference and providing up to a third of the delegates but not providing and, the secretariat. “would not be an additional or autonomous institution”. In response to the proposal, I wrote jointly with In fact, it would replace the current biennial meetings Richard Ottaway, the chair of the House of Commons of the chairs of the foreign affairs and defence committees Foreign Affairs Committee, to the Speakers of the two of national Parliaments. Therefore, it, Belgian Houses. We set out in our letter the positions 1431 Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny[31 MARCH 2011] Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny 1432 of the two committees, and I am very pleased to say body’s function is to hold the Council of Ministers, that many other national Parliaments have made similar the European Council and the high representative to representations. The Belgian presidency reflected on account, so the idea of a body that is composed of those responses and issued a revised proposal last states that are not even members of the European Friday, which is also in the Library’s debate pack. It Union holding the European Council to account or has obviously taken serious account of the representations sending instructions to the high representative is utterly made by the national Parliaments and the revised absurd. It would be rather like us trying to intervene in proposal is heading in the right direction. We should the activities of the African Union or sending instructions be grateful for that. Thanks to its efforts, an agreement to its director-general, if that is what he is called. I am on a proposal next week, which will only be possible therefore very glad indeed that the noble Lord’s judgment on the basis of consensus, now looks a more likely and that of his colleagues has prevailed over the prospect. Government’s initial proposal. However, there remain in the Belgian proposal some As the noble Lord said, one or two matters have areas of concern. Most seriously, the Belgians suggest been left open, but they are obviously secondary or that the national parliamentary delegations should be tertiary matters and I hope that he will feel able to limited to four members. In order to allow proper party display whatever flexibility is required. Those on all political balance and Select Committee representation, sides of the House who know him—I have known him we remain firmly of the view that delegations should for many years: indeed, long before I got into this be allowed up to six members per Parliament. Secondly, place—will have the highest respect for his judgment, in our view, the European Parliament is still given too and it is important that he feels that he can go back to great a proportion of the delegates. In the revised the meeting with a degree of negotiating flexibility. proposal, the proportion has been reduced from a Some of the outstanding issues, such as whether meetings third of the total membership to a quarter of the total can be held in the premises of the European Parliament, size of the national parliamentary delegations. Although seem a little theological and indeed rather petty, so there are other matters in the Belgian revised compromise giving way on such a matter in order to get an agreement proposal—such as the location of meetings—which sooner and to establish quite clearly what the regime also diverge somewhat from the intended UK position, will be would be very much in the interests of this it is these two issues on which we have the strongest House and indeed of the country and the future views and on which we have been supported most functioning of this committee. strongly by most other national Parliaments. If the I conclude with one thought. Perhaps noble Lords House agrees to our report today, I will argue strongly will think I am slightly self-interested in saying this, for the position in the report, and I will feel unable to and perhaps I am, but I do not necessarily apologise agree to a proposal that does not come significantly for that. The proposed arrangement is very good, but closer to the UK Parliament’s position than the revised the noble Lord will appreciate that it leaves entirely in Belgian proposal on these two points of substance. the hands of three Members of this House and three As is clear from the report before the House, the Members of the House of the Commons the important European Union Committee’s clear view is that the role of co-ordinating with parliaments of other member continuation of an inter-parliamentary forum is necessary states on the vital issue of the future of the common to ensure that the demise of the WEU does not leave a and foreign security policy and possibly defence policy serious gap in scrutiny.Should we have needed reminding, of the European Union. Is there some scope for having recent events in north Africa and the Middle East have from time to time—certainly not as frequently as the demonstrated the fundamental importance of discussing meetings of the proposed new committee but at most and perhaps sometimes reaching agreement on common once a year or maybe less—a slightly wider conference foreign, security and defence policies. The WEU Assembly enabling those of us in both Houses who take a close will meet for the last time in June. It is therefore wholly interest in these matters to meet colleagues in the other desirable that the European Union Speakers’ Conference European Union member states to discuss those matters next week can reach a decision so that the new forum and to see what the views are and how they are can become operational later this year. I am optimistic evolving, and where consensus might be possible and that, with further compromise, such a decision can be where it might not be possible? In other words, is there reached, and I will do everything I can to secure it. some scope for getting a flavour of the debate directly, The committee’s position is clearly set out in the as one could in the old days when there was the WEU report. I believe that it is a sensible and appropriate Assembly? In much older days, long before I became response to the winding up of the WEU Assembly involved in public life and before direct elections to the and, if agreed to, will make a good framework for European Parliament, Members of both Houses attended inter-parliamentary scrutiny for years to come. I therefore meetings at which they could discuss matters of common commend it to the House. I beg to move. interest with other members of national parliaments and the European Community. Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, I am very Of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Roper, knows, happy with this proposal and delighted to hear of the I do not suggest for one moment going back on the progress which the noble Lord, Lord Roper, has made decision to have direct elections to the European in negotiating it. I congratulate him first on having Parliament—far from it. That is an obvious and a seen off Mr Lidington’s completely inappropriate and great improvement. But I should be grateful if he ill thought through proposal that countries other than could give some thought, and possibly discuss it with members of the European Union, or even candidate his British and other EU colleagues, as to whether members, should be members of this body. Part of this there might be some opportunity from time to time to 1433 Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny[LORDS] Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny 1434

[LORD DAVIES OF STAMFORD] whole area of defence and security. That is a decision widen the circle a little bit in order that these important which will, I am sure, in friendly consultation with matters, which are sometimes extremely complex, are national parliaments, reflect the worthy sentiments of not left exclusively in the arcane hands of a small the Lisbon treaty.It specifically built into the development number of experts—great as the expertise will certainly of the European Union—and the integration that we be, at least from the, I think, six representatives which are now seeing being accelerated, I am glad to say, in the British side will send to the committee. various fields—the idea of a much bigger involvement of the national parliaments in all sorts of European 5pm policy forming areas. The involvement was not just in Lord Dykes: My Lords, I too welcome very much this particular area. The way in which the European the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Roper, has tabled Parliament responds to that now will be much more this Motion. I also welcome the fact that he has encouraging than we might have feared in the past. explained the background to it as well as the background For all those reasons and for the reasons explained by to the Select Committee report and the recommendations. the noble Lord, Lord Roper, in his initial remarks, we We on these Benches, and I as a member of the EU very much hope that this Motion will be supported Select Committee, very much endorse Appendix 1 and today. the details of the proposal. We thank the noble Lord Lord Jopling: My Lords, I am glad to be able to give for having had oversight of this matter. He followed it broad support to the speech made by the noble Lord, through in painstaking detail. Without wishing to Lord Roper, in opening the debate. There are some embarrass him by heaping too much praise on him, people who look back with great nostalgia on the which is deserved none the less, I can think of no one work of the WEU over the years, and there is no more suitable or with a longer pedigree of knowledge doubt that it has done some extremely useful work. on this subject and this particular theme than the But over the last few years I have heard the WEU noble Lord, Lord Roper. He mentioned his work in described in a rather rude way as being similar to an the Assembly in the early 1970s. I remember vividly old dog who is much loved but for whom sentimental having a long meeting with him in Paris to discuss affection prevents it being gently put to sleep. It has these matters in the early days of the development of been right to put it to sleep over the course of the last the WEU and the rest of the apparatus. year or so. It is a very good way of viewing the gradual Little objection has been made to the view that development of this new architecture, bringing in the there really must be some form of parliamentary European Union, as a result of the two recent treaties, oversight over both the CFSP and the CSDP. The into the oversight of defence and security policy for question is what form that should take. The Select European Union member states. Originally, there was Committee report—the House may recall that I happen resistance from certain senior members of NATO and to be a member of that committee—is absolutely on various member states about the idea of the EU being the right lines. The first point is that national parliaments involved in some aspects of the other subordinate must take the leading role in this. I notice that the bodies that the EU proposed to be established to deal latest Belgian proposal suggests that there should be with these subjects in detail, including the defence not six but four Members from each parliament. agency. I think now that there is a much more contented Personally, I do not mind that very much. Bearing in atmosphere between the two. There is a feeling now of mind that someone spoke earlier of the quality of the reciprocal aid and support in psychological terms likely representations from the UK Parliament, I am between NATO and the EU on these subjects, which I sure that we shall be extremely well represented whether hope will continue without me being too complacent it is four or six, but my preference would be for four about the difficulties therein, because old habits can representatives. I imagine that if there were only four die hard. representatives, the two from your Lordships’ House This is a moment too to pay tribute to the WEU would be the noble Lord, Lord Roper, and the chairman and what was achieved over the years with it and the of Sub-Committee C, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. great experts among parliamentarians of all countries They would represent us extremely well and bring a who developed a profound knowledge. I recall, over great deal of expertise to the conference. many years, quite a few laudatory comments from the One of the contentious issues, referred to by the RUSI, the Royal College of Defence Studies personnel noble Lord, Lord Roper, was what the role of the and so on about the quality of the investigations and European Parliament should be. Of course it should reports of WEU committees and the work that they have a presence, I am entirely in favour of that, but did. It was inevitable that it would end. That is quite most emphatically not of the first proposal made by right and people accept that now. We move on to the the Belgian Parliament. It suggested that one-third of new ESDA structure and we wish Robert Walter, the the membership—54 members—should come from the new chairman, and his colleagues well with those European Parliament. It modified that figure in the functions. second proposal to bring it down to 27. My suggestion Now that NATO is in areas other than just western to the noble Lord, Lord Roper, is that when he goes to Europe, there will be more and more areas where the the meeting in Brussels next week he would do well to EU will wish to follow what is going on as a united insist on 12 representatives from the European Parliament. body. Equally, it is right that it should remain primarily I think that that would be ample. It would mean that in the intergovernmental cockpit because that is the the European Parliament had 10 per cent of the nature of the subject. Gradually, the European Parliament membership and that the total membership of the will also extend its activity and architecture in the conference, with 108 representatives from the various 1435 Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny[31 MARCH 2011] Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny 1436 member parliaments, would be 120. Thus, if the conference waste of time and money, when the meeting could meets for one and a half days twice a year, at 120 perfectly well have taken place in Brussels or even in members, those representatives would have an adequate Lisbon. To have to go through Lisbon to go to the opportunity to make a contribution. I should have Azores to be there for 48 hours seems to me an thought that that number was entirely adequate with absurdity and a waste of money. It is the sort of thing no need for any more. that we have to try to correct. Certainly, that will be My own view, which I know some people do not one of the things that I say to the standing committee agree with, is that a small representation as observers—I at our meeting on Saturday. insist on that—from candidate states to the EU should be included, and from European states that are members 5.15 pm of NATO, which is in the amended Belgian proposal. I When the noble Lord, Lord Roper, goes to this would have thought that that was reasonable. If the meeting, the decision will be by consensus. I see him proposal is pressed on the noble Lord, Lord Roper, I nodding. Therefore, he will be able to insist on virtually hope that it will be written into the rules that they can everything that is set out in the proposal. I say to him speak but that they do not have a vote and cannot put and the House that there are great parallels in the down amendments to motions. They should be there setting up of this organisation with the setting up in entirely as observers with the opportunity, if they the early 1990s of what was then the CSCE Parliamentary wish, to speak. Assembly, now known as the OSCE Parliamentary There is no need to set up a new institution with a Assembly. I was leader of the British delegation at galaxy of officials if it is only to meet twice a year. The those meetings, which set it up following the treaty of suggestion that it be organised through COSAC is Paris. It was clear that some of the nations concerned reasonable. I am bound to say that I have never been a saw this as an opportunity for having frequent travel huge enthusiast for COSAC. Over the years, I have tickets to go hither and thither all over the world. attended various meetings. I remember going to some We were representing the parliaments of the United of them as chairman of Sub-Committee C, the foreign Kingdom and the United States of the time, and they affairs and defence committee, years ago. My experience decided to constrain the assembly so that it did not is that that body is not as well directed and effective as meet too often, it did not travel too far and costs were it should be. I hope that its new responsibility for considered an important matter. The leader of the organising COFAD meetings twice a year will give it a United States delegation, Dante Fascell, and I had new objectivity and we are right to give it a try. dinner the night before the crucial meeting. We agreed I am not very happy with the latest Belgian proposal that we would absolutely insist, bearing in mind that that the COSAC secretariat organise meetings in there was a consensus minus one in these arrangements, conjunction with the troika and the European Parliament. that the assembly met only once a year at the beginning I do not really see why the European Parliament need of July, which is the one time that the Americans said be involved in the organisation of the meetings. It that they would come and neither the committee nor should not be left like that, with just the COSAC the assembly could meet outside that one week in the secretariat in Brussels and the troika. The troika does year. The Assembly managed to get round some of not give a feeling of continuity; it is a transient thing, that by doing useful work, I think, in election monitoring, as we all know—although it takes 18 months to get but I hope that the noble Lord will come back and tell through it. If these meetings are to discuss defence us that he has tied down this new organisation. In and security matters, it is very important that military/ particular, there must be no committees, no travelling defence expertise is somehow attached to the organisation. hither and thither, and only two meetings a year, one Unless it is, we could have trouble ahead and the work and a half days only for each. I hope that he will insist of the conference in future would not be sufficiently on Brussels meetings. oriented to defence and security matters. Perhaps it One point that has not been made so far was made would be possible temporarily to attach specialist to me last night by the noble Lord, Lord Roper. If the defence consultants to the secretariat to add that meetings are in Brussels, it is much more likely that expertise. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Roper, will one can get access to the high representative—the be able to insist on that when he is in Brussels next noble Baroness, Lady Ashton—which is exactly what week. I am perfectly confident that he will look after we want. We must make this new organisation cost- the United Kingdom’s interests in those meetings and effective. I wish the noble Lord well and I am sure that the interests of this House. I certainly wish him well. he will come back with a satisfactory solution. However, I must stress to him the need firmly to set the new body up so that it is tied into various conditions and rules which prevent the sort of mission creep Lord Liddle: My Lords, on behalf of the Opposition, which has befallen some international bodies in the I welcome this Motion from the noble Lord, Lord past. Roper. We support the recommendations for the I am concerned that some of these international establishment of an EU Inter-parliamentary Conference bodies do too much travelling, and to places which are on Foreign Affairs and Defence and Security. We have unnecessarily distant. Perhaps I may give your Lordships had interesting contributions from my noble friend an example which irritates me to death. I have to leave Lord Davies of Stamford and the noble Lords, Lord home at six o’clock tomorrow morning to fly to the Dykes and Lord Jopling. Azores for a meeting of the standing committee of the I could hardly do otherwise than support the committee NATO Parliamentary Assembly.It is meeting on Saturday recommendation, given that I was on the committee and we come home on Sunday. That seems an enormous when the recommendation was formulated, but it seems 1437 Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny[LORDS] Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny 1438

[LORD LIDDLE] Those are the principles on which I hope that the to be a wise set of recommendations. As an historian I noble Lord, Lord Roper, will represent us in the meetings share in the nostalgia of the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, next week. We support this recommendation. This for the Western European Union, but the WEU was new body should be more than mere tokenism; we rather a long time dying, if I may put it like that. I first want it to be effective and serious. We hope that he will remember this coming up when the noble Lord, Lord be able to come up with a consensus that meets our Robertson of Port Ellen, was Secretary of State for concerns. Defence in 1998. We had a discussion between the Ministry of Defence and No. 10 and the Foreign The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office when I was an adviser in No. 10 about folding Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, I join in the WEU into the existing NATO and EU structures. the congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Roper, on It has been a long time since Britain first put forward both bringing forward this Motion and for presiding that proposal. over this excellent report and, indeed, if I may say so The recommendations that we now have are right. more widely, for the way that he administers his very We need a body made up of national parliamentarians influential and effective duties in the EU Committee to maintain some form of parliamentary accountability structure, which are of enormous benefit not only to in the area of EU defence and foreign policy. The this House but to general debate on the pattern and EU is a complex hybrid of supranationalism and development of all European Union affairs. intergovernmentalism. It has become an even more I also find myself ready to endorse almost everything complex one with the passage of the Lisbon treaty and that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said. He rightly the setting up of the double-hatted high representative emphasised the intergovernmental nature and how who has both a responsibility in the Commission and crucial it was that it should be preserved in this vital is accountable to the Foreign Ministers’ Council. It is area. The only point where things slightly jarred was very important that, because the intergovernmental when he mentioned his work on the constitutional nature of these things remains crucial, there is a body treaty. A shadow passed through my memory as I made up of national Parliaments which can question recalled that unhappy episode that, alas, did not lead the high representative. It also seems to me that there to fruitful results. For the rest, the noble Lord has is a very strong political case for this type of body. I rightly endorsed some sensible proposals. am sure that the European role in these questions is The Government attach significant importance to going to grow greatly in the years ahead in response to the issue of parliamentary scrutiny of the EU’s common the pressures of globalisation and the insistence of the security and defence policy and want to ensure that US, as we see in the events in north Africa, that we live the cross-European parliamentary debate on European up to our responsibilities as Europeans. It is inevitable defence issues, performed currently—and for the next that Europe’s role will grow, but it is also inevitable few months—by the WEU Assembly, continues. Inter- that these matters, at least in the first instance, will be parliamentary discussion serves to enhance and enlighten handled intergovernmentally, I suspect for quite a the national scrutiny work of Parliaments and period. Therefore, it is very important that such a complements the breadth of knowledge that already mechanism as proposed exists. exists in this House. This can only be a good thing; I am unambiguous about that. We support the committee’s recommendations on structure. They seem to provide for an efficient and Let me be clear to your Lordships about the cost-effective body. We welcome the efforts of the Government’s role in this process. In March last year, noble Lord, Lord Roper, to achieve consensus on Governments decided to close up the Western European these matters. I would say that the essence of the Union, the bulk of its functions having already transferred position should be that, first, this should be an EU-led to the European Union. I share my noble friend Lord body. That does not preclude having observers, but the Jopling’s tinge of nostalgia, since it seems to me that primary focus should be the European Union, and I the WEU was part of our lives in at least the last three agree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, or four decades of the previous century. Many of us on that point. Secondly, the primacy within the body regard it as a familiar part of the European Union of national parliamentarians should be absolutely clear- landscape, but times pass and the decision to close it cut. Thirdly—and here I agree with the noble Lord, up has been taken. Lord Jopling—the meetings should be in Brussels, In doing so, we recognised the value of the continuing because that is where we are most likely to get engagement inter-parliamentary debate on European defence and with the key people. There should not be some fancy security so, to ensure that a future forum could be gallivanting off to the Azores, or elsewhere. Fourthly, established to facilitate that, we have worked to help because the meetings should be in Brussels, I think discussion with interested parliamentarians on how one has to be careful about how many Members of the this might be taken forward. During those discussions, European Parliament one tolerates within this new we set out the Government’s preferences for such a institution. I spent a lot of time rather enjoyably in the body, but it is obviously for national European convention that was set up to discuss the EU constitutional parliamentarians to decide the form that future scrutiny treaty. It was a great innovation in that convention arrangements should take. It is certainly not for the that there were representatives of national Parliaments Government to dictate the terms; that would be quite there, but they got rather quickly overwhelmed by the wrong. Brussels bubble. You have to watch that something The Government’s priorities in this process are that meets in Brussels does not become dominated by clear. First, we believe in the primacy of national those who are based in Brussels. parliamentary scrutiny of the EU’s common foreign 1439 Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny[31 MARCH 2011] Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny 1440 security policy.That reflects the policy’s intergovernmental 5.30 pm nature, which we have all emphasised, and within it, Lord Roper: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble the common security and defence policy. These are Lords who have taken part in this short debate and intergovernmental matters and, given the role played have made helpful contributions to our consideration by national Parliaments, there is no need for any new of this topic. As the Minister said in his closing arrangements to involve expanding the European remarks, Norway has already played a very active part Parliament’s competence to scrutinise CFSP. While in a number of the missions of the CSDP so, whether the European Parliament has a role, as is recognised this should be automatic or whether it should be the in the report, we believe that an inter-parliamentary norm, by convention it would always be invited. We body better reflects the intergovernmental nature of have kept the model as it is in the report because that is CFSP. the practice in COSAC; that body has a framework in Secondly, we believe that any new arrangements the protocol to the treaty. To make that a right could should be better suited to supporting and informing lead to problems. However, we believe that Norway the national security process. They should capitalise should be invited on every occasion, and I will certainly on the expertise of relevant parliamentarians in this make that point clear when we have the discussions policy area and allow for a free and open exchange of next week. information among European states. It was quite interesting that the noble Lords, Lord Davies and Lord Jopling, had different ideas as to Thirdly, new arrangements need to demonstrate whether the body should be larger or smaller. At the value for money to the taxpayer, as many of your moment, given the pressures on budgets, it is going to Lordships have emphasised. Given the current financial be a case of keeping the size down. If we eventually pressures facing Europe and all its member states, we move into a situation where more resources are available support the proposal in the EU Committee report that for inter-parliamentary co-operation, the possibility any future mechanism for inter-parliamentary dialogue of having larger meetings from time to time of the on CSDP should operate with the minimum possible kind that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, referred to cost and bureaucracy. The UK’s current annual should be considered. subscription to the WEU is ¤2.3 million. While the WEU Assembly played a useful role in engaging views from across Europe, we and other WEU council members Lord Davies of Stamford: The figure of six is probably believe that this inter-parliamentary debating function right but I would be perfectly happy with four; I do can be delivered much more efficiently outside the not feel strongly about that. My suggestion was that in WEU structures. The new body, as envisaged in the addition to that there could be a rather more informal EU Committee report, will operate at a fraction of occasion where a rather larger number of people could the current cost and, more appropriately, will be paid take part for the sake of informing a wider range of for by national parliaments, not Governments. people in all national parliaments, including our own, about the current agenda of these important discussions. The Government believe that the new arrangements should include third states outside the 27 members of Lord Roper: I noticed that. However, I think that the European Union, as the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, the issue at the moment is the impact of the present and others have referred to. One of the major strengths period of austerity on the budgets of national Parliaments, of the CSDP is its ability to draw support from as we discussed at the Speakers’ conference last year. outside the EU. The report acknowledges that. We The impact is such that one has some difficulty in welcome that it extends a standing invitation to EU making proposals for too much of that at the moment. candidate countries, of which there are five at the Nevertheless, the idea should be retained and brought moment—including, as the noble Lord, Lord Roper, forward when there are more possibilities. says, the important candidate country of Turkey—but we remain convinced that non-EU European NATO I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, members such as Norway should also receive a standing Lord Dykes. I also very much appreciate the helpful invitation. European defence policy and NATO share advice—based on his great experience of inter- common political and security interests. Norway in parliamentary co-operation in very many of these particular has provided valuable contributions to EU bodies—of the noble Lord, Lord Jopling. As for the operations and is currently an associate member of issue of four rather than six, we say “a maximum of the WEU. We can see no reason why its inclusion in six”. Some of the unicameral parliaments—Malta, for future arrangements should be anything other than example—never send more than two or three members permanent, and we hope that the decision that the to COSAC even though they are entitled to send six. noble Lord mentioned will go forward. We ask: why One will not have six from everywhere. We have had slam down the door so dismissively on good friends informal discussions with our colleagues from the and a valuable contributor to European defence? House of Commons, where there is a wish to send someone from the Foreign Affairs Committee, the In this policy area we see a real value in inter- Defence Committee and the European Scrutiny parliamentary collective debate that informs the national Committee. It would not necessarily be the case, as the security process of EU member states. The European noble Lord said, that this House would need to have Union Committee report is an important and valuable three. However, if we were to restrict the number to step towards developing practical, low-cost and inclusive four, there would be a feeling not only in the House of arrangements that will benefit parliamentarians across Commons but in some of the other Parliaments that it Europe, and I urge your Lordships’ House to back it was too restrained. We will obviously have to consider fully. this matter with care next week. 1441 Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny[LORDS] Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny 1442

[LORD ROPER] legitimately takes the lead. That is appropriate as I hope that we will be able to achieve the suggestion those activities are dealt with on a Community basis. from the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, for 12 members However, the European Parliament would like to try from the European Parliament. It is certainly a matter to blur the distinctions, as it were, between the two to be considered. As for his point on the secretariat, treaties. The point we will be making next week is that the COSAC secretariat has always had someone from that distinction must be maintained as it is made clear the European Parliament as one of the members. It in one of the declarations that the relevant treaty will would only happen in that way and as part of the give the European Parliament no more power in the general secretariat, rather than as the European Parliament field of common foreign and security policy. coming in and providing it, as was at one time suggested. I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Liddle and Lord As the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, will see, we have Howell, that it is highly desirable to have the meeting in the report a “no committees” point, at point 15 on in Brussels. We have left a certain amount of discretion page 9. At point 18, on page 10, we take up the point in this regard as a presidency should have some power that he made about the need for technical and military but we trust that Brussels will be seen as the norm for advice from time to time. We will certainly examine all the reasons that were given. I was very grateful to how that can be done. the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for his remarks. I have I was grateful for the support from the two Front nothing further to say in that regard except that we Benches. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, was—alas—only were extremely grateful for the help we received from too briefly a member of the committee. Interestingly his right honourable friend the Minister for Europe, enough, however, in that short time, he was with us Mr Lidington, in the informal conversations which when we agreed this report. went on between committees of this House and of the other place in preparing the two parallel reports on Part of the problem with the European Parliament this subject. We are very conscious of the point he is that although we talk about the Lisbon treaty, there made about the need to obtain value for money. That are in fact two treaties. Most of the stuff concerning very much goes back to the point made by the noble the CFSP, the CSDP and the treaty which is purely Lord, Lord Jopling. inter-governmental is in the Treaty on European Union. That is of course what this is dealing with. On the As I say, I am very grateful for the comments that other hand, if you turn to Part 5 of the treaty on the have been made and I shall certainly take them with functioning of the European Union, you will see a me when I go to Brussels next week. great wodge of other external activities of the European Motion agreed. Union for which the European Parliament has responsibility and on which its external affairs committee House adjourned at 5.40 pm. WS 107 Written Statements[31 MARCH 2011] Written Statements WS 108

been fully validated, payment for that scheme year will Written Statements now be made. Should any changes be identified for Thursday 31 March 2011 earlier scheme year payments in due course, the farmers concerned will be informed. The RPA plan to complete Agriculture: Single Payment Scheme the work required before the opening of the SPS 2011 payment window on 1 December. Statement The net result of these decisions is that the flow of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department remaining SPS 2010 payments will now increase. The for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): Oversight Board did additionally consider requests My honourable friend the Minister for Agriculture from various sectors of the industry to make partial and Farming (James Paice) and today made the following payments. However, the RPA’s analysis suggests that Statement. this would not significantly increase the speed at which In my Statement of 4 March (col. WS 47), I updated remaining claims are paid to farmers, but would add the House on the Rural Payments Agency’s (RPA), disproportionately to the backlog of corrective work progress in both addressing its daunting legacy of required and introduce additional risks of EU fines. errors in relation to the single payment scheme (SPS) Consequently, it was agreed that the agency should and ensuring that accurate payments under the SPS not make partial payments. 2010 reached farmers as soon as possible. In that In order that all farmers with payments outstanding Statement I explained I was considering additional at the end of March understand how these decisions measures to speed the flow of SPS 2010 payments might affect them, the RPA will be writing to each of and, following discussions in the RPA Oversight Board, those concerned next week to explain what issues I can now report on the decisions that have been remain on their claims and the likely month of payment. reached. Alongside this work, the RPA will continue to Since 4 March, the RPA has continued to make review the remaining backlog of potential error cases SPS 2010 payments as claims are validated and to that need to be reviewed. Corrective work undertaken undertake further work to identify those that are to date, combined with earlier decisions by the Oversight ineligible and not, therefore, due a payment for this Board on ensuring entitlements were regularised wherever year. As a result, the agency calculate that there are legally possible, has made a real impact to date. The now in the region of 6,300 eligible claims remaining to board will be monitoring these efforts closely to ensure be paid, with a combined value of around £215 million a line is finally drawn under all the legacy data issues of the expected total value of payments for the 2010 over the coming year. scheme year. The frustrations felt by these farmers I will continue to keep the House informed on the have been made very clear to me, both directly and agency’s progress. through farmers’ representative bodies. They want both the remaining sums paid as soon as possible and Armed Forces: Elections a line to be drawn under the legacy issues so uncertainty Statement over past years is removed and greater confidence is provided that subsequent scheme year payments will The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord not be affected. The Oversight Board shares these McNally): My honourable friend the Minister for Political aims and has been looking very closely at how the and Constitutional Reform (Mark Harper) has made former can be achieved without significantly impacting the following Written Ministerial Statement. on the latter. The Government have put in place an initiative to Against that background, the Oversight Board has support the participation of members of the Armed now approved two decisions which between them should Forces serving in Afghanistan who wish to vote in the ensure that less than 1 per cent of the monetary value referendum and elections on 5 May. of SPS 2010 payments remains outstanding at the end Following a dedicated registration push for those of the regulatory payment window which closes on facing the most difficult of circumstances whilst serving 30 June. This would be in line with, or would better, in Afghanistan, service personnel will be able to use performance in previous years and would ensure the either a proxy or postal vote to take part in the polls. EU requirement to make 95.238 per cent of payments Special forms produced by the Electoral Commission by 30 June is met thus avoiding late payment penalties. have been provided to relevant units, both for those The first decision is that, after rigorous testing on a going out to Afghanistan and those already there, to sample to ensure accuracy of the process, fully validated fill out to register to vote, and to choose how they wish manual payments will be made to approximately 2,000 to vote. The Ministry of Defence is undertaking targeted farmers under the 2010 scheme who would otherwise activity to encourage soldiers to register to vote before not be paid until after the payment window. These they leave the UK and each person arriving in Afghanistan payments will be made over the next two months and will be briefed on the initiative. take account of known entitlement corrections that Troops who fill out the forms and request a postal have yet to be fully processed on the agency’s systems. vote will be sent ballot forms via the British Forces Should there be any additional changes identified Post Office (BFPO), utilising existing supply routes. once payment has been made, the farmers concerned Once completed by the service voters, the ballot will be informed. papers will be returned to the UK and distributed to The second decision relates to those remaining SPS returning officers using a network of BFPO, Royal 2010 payments where there are outstanding queries on Mail and local authority support put in place for the earlier scheme years. Where the SPS 2010 claim has initiative. WS 109 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 110

Alongside this, counting officers and returning officers illegally swapping cattle eartags to retain TB test positive have been asked to prioritise the production of all animals in their herds and sending other less productive postal ballot packs that are to be sent overseas. Those animals to slaughter in their place. The suspected heading for BFPO addresses will be treated as a priority fraudulent activity is now subject to formal investigations. by BFPO to facilitate service personnel participation If this kind of practice is taking place, it is totally in the polls more widely. unacceptable. We are taking immediate action to prevent This initiative builds on that put in place for the activity of this kind happening in future, and any general election in 2010. It is right that we make it as farmer who tries to cheat the system should know that easy as possible for our service personnel on operations they will be identified and prosecuted. I should stress in Afghanistan to take part in the referendum and that the health risks to consumers from this suspected elections on 5 May. fraud are very low. Anyone who retains TB-test-positive cattle increases the risk of disease spread within their herd, to their Armed Forces: Single Source Pricing neighbours’ herds, and to wildlife. We are moving Regulations quickly to introduce new measures to prevent this Statement occurring in future. In particular, from mid-April DNA tags will be applied immediately to cattle that test positive for TB. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry This quick action is only possible because of the of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My honourable commitment and support of the veterinary profession, friend the Minister for Defence Equipment, Support for which I am grateful. Animal Health will then cross and Technology (Peter Luff) has made the following check, on a random sample basis and where there is Written Ministerial Statement. any suspicion of eartag tampering, the DNA of TB I announced to the House on 26 January 2011 that test positive animals against the DNA of animals sent I had asked Lord Currie of Marylebone to undertake to slaughter. a fundamental review of the Government’s single source I would emphasise that the vast majority of cattle pricing regulations, which include the Government farmers fully comply with TB control measures, but profit formula (GPF) overseen by the review board for their considerable and tireless efforts to help us control government contracts. In the announcement I said this terrible disease risk being undermined by an that the review board has been asked to maintain the irresponsible minority. I am confident that our quick existing arrangements pending the outcome of Lord and decisive action, including the DNA tagging of TB Currie’s review (which is due to report in July 2011), reactors, will help protect the interests of all cattle and to complete their 2011 annual review of the GPF. farmers. The Government have subsequently considered and accepted the review board’s recommendations in their 2011 annual review, and all changes have been agreed Civil Partnerships with industry. This will reduce the profit and capital Statement servicing allowances payable by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) on new single source work that is placed after 1 April 2011. An agreed change to the GPF methodology Baroness Verma: My honourable friend the Parliamentary will be of benefit to small and medium-sized enterprises; Under-Secretary of State for Equalities and Criminal and agreed changes to Government accounting Information (Lynne Featherstone) has today made the conventions setting out the treatment of costs in single following Written Ministerial Statement. source pricing will improve the MoD’s negotiating The Government are committed to advancing equality position. The board’s recommendations will be for lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) people and to implemented in accordance with arrangements ensuring freedom of religion or belief for all people. subsequently agreed with the industry side and recorded To further both of these aims, the Government are in an addendum to the published report. I will be committed to removing the legal barrier to civil placing a copy of the report in the Library of the partnerships being registered on the religious premises House. The recommendations will be implemented for of those faith groups who choose to allow this to new single source work with effect from 1 April 2011. happen. This will be done by implementing Section 202 of the Equality Act 2010. This is a permissive measure; Section 202 makes clear that there will be no Bovine Tuberculosis obligation on faith groups to host civil partnerships. Statement Today we are publishing a consultation document setting out proposals to implement Section 202. The proposals set out in the consultation document are The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department designed to respect the wishes of faith groups whether for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): they wish to host civil partnership registrations or not, My honourable friend the Minister for Agriculture and to keep burdens on local authorities to a minimum. and Farming (James Paice) and today made the following To this end we are proposing a two-stage process. Statement. First, faith groups must agree whether to permit civil I wish to inform the House that I have received partnership registrations on their premises to enable evidence suggesting that a very small minority of individual religious premises to apply to host them. farmers in the South West and Midlands have been Second, individual religious premises must obtain approval WS 111 Written Statements[31 MARCH 2011] Written Statements WS 112 from the local authority for their area by following a I am announcing the following DEL Budget switches, process similar to that for venues such as hotels where in accordance with the Treasury’s consolidated budgeting civil marriages and partnership registrations are held guidance. Resource DEL will be decreased by £64,000,000 now. The consultation will run until 23 June. from £1,290,579,000 to £1,226,579,000 and Capital This consultation document deals only with this DEL will be increased by £64,000,000 from £1,987,933,000 specific measure and does not set out proposals for to £2,051,933,000. The impact of these non-voted any other changes to civil partnerships or any changes DEL switches on the Resource and Capital DEL are to marriage. However, in our work on civil partnerships as set out in the following table: we have identified a desire from many to move towards equal civil marriage and partnerships, and will be £’000 Change New consulting separately on how legislation can develop, DEL working with all those who have an interest in this Non- Non- Voted Voted Voted Voted Total area. Copies of the consultation document are being Resource -20,000 -44,000 434,820 791,759 1,226,579 placed in the House Library and will also be available DEL from the Vote Office. Of which: Administration - - 117,939 - 117,939 Courts Service and Tribunals Service Budget Capital 20,000 44,000 744,751 1,307,182 2,051,933 Statement DEL † Less - - -7,516 -4,389 -11,905 The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Depreciation McNally): My honourable friend the Parliamentary †† Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Jonathan Total - - 1,172,055 2,094,552 3,266,607 Djanogly) has made the following Written Ministerial DEL Statement. † Capital DEL includes items treated as resource in Estimates I am announcing today the launch of Her Majesty’s and accounts but which are treated as Capital DEL in budgets. Courts and Tribunals Service as an executive agency †† Depreciation, which forms part of Resource DEL, is of the Ministry of Justice. It brings together Her excluded from the total DEL in the table above, since Capital Majesty’s Courts Service and the Tribunals Service DEL includes capital spending and to include depreciation of into one integrated agency providing support to the those assets would lead to double counting. judiciary in the administration of justice in courts and tribunals. The transfer from voted Resource DEL to Capital The agency is responsible for the administration of DEL of £20,000,000 relates to the cost of keeping the criminal, civil and family courts and tribunals in open the Warm Front scheme for two weeks longer England and Wales and non-devolved tribunals in than budgeted during a period of extreme bad weather. Scotland and Northern Ireland. It provides for a fair, The transfer from non-voted Resource DEL to efficient and effective justice system delivered by an Capital DEL of £44,000,000 is in respect of work by independent judiciary. the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority at the Sellafield I believe that operating as a single organisation will site, as a result of a final assessment of the split of the provide the platform to improve accessibility, drive up cost of decommissioning activities on the site between quality and provide a better environment for service capital and resource expenditure in accordance with users. Integration will enable those who need to use the ONS/ESA95 agreed definitions. the agency’s services to do so in a simple and straightforward way, using a single point of access. Bringing corporate functions together will remove duplication in management functions and enable Department for Environment, Food and efficiencies which do not impact on frontline services. Rural Affairs: DEL Integration will also enable more efficient use of the Statement combined estate, using facilities flexibly across jurisdictions. Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service uniquely operates on the basis of a partnership between the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Lord Chancellor, the Lord Chief Justice and the Senior for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): President of Tribunals as set out in Her Majesty’s My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has Courts and Tribunals Framework Document. I have today made the following Statement. laid this document before Parliament today. I wish to announce that for 2010-11 Defra will switch £9 million available Resource DEL budget to Department for Energy and Climate cover a forecast deficit against its Capital DEL control Change: DEL total, in accordance with HM Treasury’s consolidated budgetary guidance. Although the financial outturn Statement for the year is not final, the current assessment of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department required switch is £9 million. The movement in spend of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): My from Resource DEL to Capital DEL is in respect of right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy flood defences where the exact nature and classification and Climate Change ( Chris Huhne) has made the of the expenditure is determined by the Environment following Written Ministerial Statement. Agency, as they undertake the work. WS 113 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 114

Today we have published the most recent figures on Change New £’000 DEL the mortality of veterans of the 1990-91 Gulf conflict, Non- Non- covering the period 1 April 1991 to 31 December 2010. Voted voted Voted voted Total These figures have been published as a National Statistic Notice on the Defence Analytical Services and Advice Resource - -9,000 3,695,767 -1,271,951 2,423,816 website. DEL of which: The data for Gulf veterans are compared to that of a control group known as the Era cohort consisting of Administration - - 282,088 - 282,088 budget Armed Forces personnel of a similar profile in terms Capital - 9,000 122,977 463,887 586,864 of age, gender, service, regular/reservists status and DEL † rank, who were in service on 1 January 1991 but were Less - - -100,441 -109,235 -209,676 not deployed to the Gulf. As in the previous release, Depreciation the Era group has been adjusted for a small difference †† in the age-profile of those aged 40 years and over, to Total - - 3,718,303 -917,299 2,801,004 ensure appropriate comparisons. † Capital DEL includes items treated as resource in Estimates Key points to note in the data are: and accounts but which are treated as Capital DEL in budgets. there have been 1,193 deaths among the Gulf veterans †† Depreciation, which forms part of resource DEL, is and 1,216 in the age-adjusted Era comparison group; excluded from total DEL since capital DEL includes capital and spending and to include depreciation of those assets would lead the 1,193 deaths among Gulf veterans compare with to double counting. approximately 1,998 deaths which would have been expected in a similar sized cohort taken from the Energy: Carbon Prices general population of the UK with the same age and Statement gender profile. This reflects the strong emphasis on fitness when recruiting and retaining service personnel. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord These statistics continue to confirm that UK veterans Sassoon): My honourable friend the Economic Secretary of the 1990-91 Gulf conflict do not suffer an excess of to the Treasury (Justine Greening) has today made the overall mortality compared with service personnel following Written Ministerial Statement. that did not deploy. The Government have today published the The full notice can be viewed at the following Government’s response to the consultation document address: http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/ on the carbon price floor. www/index.php?page=66&pubType=1. The consultation document Carbon Price Floor: A copy has been placed in the Library of the House. Support and Certainty for Low-Carbon Investment set out the Government’s proposal to provide greater Human Rights support and certainty to the price of carbon in the power sector to encourage investment in low-carbon Statement electricity generation. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Budget 2011 announced the introduction of a carbon Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable price floor from 1 April 2013. The floor will start at friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and around £16 per tonne of carbon dioxide (tCO2) and Commonwealth Affairs (William Hague) has made follow a linear path to target £30/tCO2 in 2020 (both the following Written Ministerial Statement. in 2009 prices). The carbon price support rates in Human Rights and Democracy: The 2010 Foreign 2013-14 will be equivalent to £4.94/tCO2. and Commonwealth Office Report will be published The consultation sought views on how best to today. The report covers the period from 1 January to implement the proposal. A number of issues were 31 December 2010, although some key events in early raised by respondents throughout the consultation. 2011 have also been included. It highlights what the These are addressed in the Government’s response. Government are doing to promote our values around The Government intend to introduce legislation for the world, the serious concerns we have, and the the proposals in 2011 Finance Bill (and subsequent important human rights progress being made. secondary legislation) and to bring the proposals into The report was laid before Parliament on 30 March. effect from 1 April 2013. Copies are available in the Vote Office and Printed Copies of the document have been deposited in the Paper Office in the House of Lords. The report will be Libraries of both Houses and are available on the available online at www.fco.gov.uk/hrdreport. I commend Treasury website at www.hm-treasury.gov.uk. the report to the House. Gulf War: Veteran Mortalities Independent Monitoring Commission and Statement Independent International Commission on Decommissioning The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable Statement friend the Minister for Defence Personnel, Welfare Lord Shutt of Greetland: My right honourable friend and Veterans (Andrew Robathan) has made the following the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Owen Written Ministerial Statement. Paterson) has made the following Ministerial Statement. WS 115 Written Statements[31 MARCH 2011] Written Statements WS 116

We have previously announced that the work of the In order to inject greater transparency into the IndependentMonitoringCommission(IMC)andIndependent process, I intend to require administrators to give International Commission on Decommissioning (IICD) notice to creditors where they propose to sell a significant has been nearing completion. We have agreed with the proportion of the assets of a company or its business IMC and IICD that the time is now right to bring the to a connected party, in circumstances where there has commissions to a close and the necessary arrangements been no open marketing of the assets. This will enable have been put in place to wind down both commissions. creditors to express concerns, which the administrator They will be dissolved on 31 March. would need to consider, or to make a higher offer for As requested by the UK and Irish Governments, the assets, and in cases where the circumstances justify the IMC and IICD have provided both Governments it, apply to the court for injunctive relief. with reports on each commission’s experience and These options can be exercised before the sale has lessons learned. Due to the pre-election period, the taken place, and therefore reflect concerns raised by reports will be published after the Assembly elections stakeholders in their responses to the consultation. in May on a date to be agreed by both Governments. The new requirements will apply not just to pre-packs I would like to take this opportunity to thank the but to any sales back to connected parties in an IMC and IICD commissioners and commission staff administration where there has been no open marketing who have played a crucial part in supporting and of the assets. enabling historic changes over the years, assisting in Administrators already need to provide a detailed Northern Ireland’s transition to a peaceful, stable and explanation of why a pre-pack sale was undertaken to inclusive society. creditors in compliance with professional standard Statement of Insolvency Practice 16. These will in future need to be included in their administration Insolvency proposals which are lodged at Companies House, Statement making the information available to business as a whole, including, for example, credit reference agencies. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, This information may be of particular interest to Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness suppliers and others considering doing business with Wilcox): My honourable friend the Minister for the purchasing company. Administrators will also need Employment Relations, Consumers and Postal Affairs to confirm that the sale price represents, in their view, (Edward Davey) has today made the following Statement. best value for the creditors. Everyone who is affected by insolvency is entitled We are today also publishing a report on compliance to have confidence that insolvency procedures are with the Statement of Insolvency Practice 16 (a used fairly and that insolvency practitioners deliver professional standard setting out what information the best possible outcome in what are often difficult must be disclosed to creditors in pre-packs) during and challenging circumstances. It is particularly important 2010. Overall levels of compliance have increased, that suppliers, who often extend credit on unsecured showing that in the great majority of cases necessary terms, have confidence in the insolvency regime, as a statements are now being given (after the event) to lack of confidence is likely to restrict the availability of creditors. However in a minority of cases the information credit. is insufficient, and in these cases the concerns have I am today announcing measures to improve been reported to the relevant authorising body. My transparency and confidence in pre-packaged (pre-pack) officials will be liaising with the various bodies to sales in administration. These will help ensure that in ensure that there is a consistent approach taken to these cases as much is fairly returned to creditors as lack of compliance. possible. These measures are in line with the policies of A copy of the consultation and summary of responses, this Government to drive balanced and sustainable together with the report on compliance with the Statement growth and will provide real benefits to business. of Insolvency Practice 16 can be found on the Insolvency The merits of pre-pack sales have continued to be Service’s website at www.insolvency.gov.uk. the subject of much debate. In response to the concerns raised, the previous Government launched a consultation Local Enterprise Partnerships exercise in March 2010. The responses make it clear Statement that the greatest cause for concern is where the business and assets are sold back to the current management or The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, a connected party—something that is often referred to Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness as phoenixism. Wilcox): My honourable friend the Minister for Business I recognise that pre-pack sales offer a flexible and and Enterprise (Mark Prisk) has today made the speedy means of rescue and can be the best way of following Statement. maximising returns for creditors. I do not wish to I, together with Greg Clark, Minister of State for outlaw them. But they must be done fairly and reasonably. Decentralisation, would like to inform the House that Where such sales are at undervalue, creditors get less today we have written to the proposed Heart of the than they should. Competitors who pay their debts in South West local enterprise partnerships, covering full also suffer. I want to make sure that creditors have Devon, Somerset, Plymouth and Torbay, inviting them a fair chance to have their voice heard. I also want to to put their governance arrangements in place. enable others to scrutinise such transactions after the Local enterprise partnerships see a real power shift event to ensure that deals being struck are fair in the away from central government and quangos and towards circumstances. local communities and the local businesses which really WS 117 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 118 understand the barriers to growth in their areas. This The Government have now had the opportunity to announcement brings the total number of partnerships consider the review’s first report. It sets out the following so far invited to put their governance arrangements in broad principles: place to 32. We will continue to work with other areas fairness is an essential part of any new system of with a view to establishing further local enterprise pay and conditions; partnerships across England. the office of constable is the bedrock of British policing; Police: Renumeration the demands of policing should be given full and proper weight; Statement people should be paid for what they do, the skills they have and are applying in their work, and the The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- weights of the jobs they do; Jones): My right honourable friend the Secretary of people should be paid for how well they work; State for the Home Department (Theresa May) has a single police service—distinctions in pay and today made the following Written Ministerial Statement. other conditions of service between police officers On 8 March, I issued a Written Statement to the and staff should be objectively justified; House announcing that Tom Winsor had published arrangements should be simple to implement and the first report of his review of remuneration and administer; and conditions of service for police officers and staff in phased introduction of reform. England and Wales. We welcome these principles, and believe that they We have the best police force in the world, but I said provide a framework for fair and sustainable arrangements when the review was launched, it is vital that we have a for remuneration and conditions of service. modern and flexible service to meet the demands The review also sets out a package of specific placed on it. The Government recognise and value the recommendations for police officers’ and staff professionalism of the police and have made clear remuneration and conditions of service, based on their commitment to supporting and maximising frontline these guiding principles. I have consulted the independent services to the public. Police officers and staff should chair of the Police Negotiating Board and Police be rewarded fairly and reasonably for what they do. Advisory Board for England and Wales and I will They deserve to have pay and workforce arrangements direct those bodies to consider the proposals that are that both recognise the vital role they play in fighting within their respective remits for police officers in crime and keeping the public safe and enable them to England and Wales as a matter of urgency. I will also deliver effectively for the public. be writing to the Association of Police Authorities and The Government have also been clear that action is the Police Staff Council to recommend that they consider needed to tackle the deficit responsibly to ensure that the report’s recommendations in respect of police staff the taxpayer gets a fair deal from all parts of the in England and Wales. public sector. The police service has its part to play, and in an organisation like the police, where pay is 80 Service Complaints Commissioner: Annual per cent of police revenue expenditure, there is no question that pay restraint and pay reform must form Report part of the package. In this context, it is more important Statement than ever that the police leadership has the flexibility to manage forces and protect the frontline services. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry The review has an important role in enabling the of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable police service to do this. Tom Winsor was asked to friend the Minister for Defence Personnel, Welfare look at how remuneration arrangements and conditions and Veterans (Andrew Robathan) has made the following of service for police officers and staff can best support Written Ministerial Statement. and enable the police service to serve the public and I am pleased to lay before Parliament today the provide value for money for the public taxpayer. Service Complaints Commissioner’s third annual report In particular, the terms of reference asked for on the fairness, effectiveness and efficiency of the recommendations on how to: service complaints system. use remuneration and conditions of service to The commissioner continues to provide an independent maximise officer and staff deployment to frontline oversight of the system and has been effective in roles where their powers and skills are required; beginning to drive improvements in the way in which we handle service complaints. She has added value provide remuneration and conditions of service and challenged the services’ established ways of working. that are fair to and reasonable for both the public The Ministry of Defence and the services have taxpayer and police officers and staff; and worked closely with the commissioner over the past enable modern management practices in line with three years to take practical steps to implement her practices elsewhere in the public sector and the recommendations for improving further the service wider economy. complaints process. I and the service chiefs welcome In recognition of the urgency of these matters, the the fact that this report acknowledges the progress review was asked to report in two stages: the first on that has been made, and the initiatives that have been short-term improvements and a second report on longer- implemented in a number of the areas since the first term reforms. report was published in 2009. WS 119 Written Statements[31 MARCH 2011] Written Statements WS 120

Whilst progress has been made, we recognise that Since the June Budget 2010, the Government have we can improve further the manner in which we handle been developing a new approach to tax policy making, complaints. with consultation on policy and scrutiny of legislation I will provide a formal response to the commissioner as the cornerstones. once I and the services have had time to consider in On 9 December 2010 the Tax Consultation Framework full the findings of the report and the recommendations was published in draft for comment. Today the made. Government are publishing their response to the comments received including the finalised framework Social Fund Allocations showing amendments made to the draft version. Statement Respondents have generally welcomed the framework as a positive step towards achieving the Government’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department aims of predictability, stability and simplicity for the for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My honourable tax system. Many of the suggestions have been friend the Minister for Pensions (Steve Webb) has incorporated into the finalised framework, while others made the following Written Ministerial Statement. will be addressed through the guidance and training I am pleased to announce that the gross discretionary provided to policy officials. Social Fund Budget for 2011-12 will be £732 million. Responding to feedback from interested parties the With the net funding available, I have been able to Government are also publishing today their updated allocate a gross national Social Fund Loans Budget of Tax Consultation Tracker which is available on the £590 million and a national Community Care Grants HM Treasury website at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov. Budget of £141 million from 1 April 2011. uk/tax_updates.htm. To provide help to Jobcentre Plus budgets facing The new version of the tracker includes specific unexpected and unplanned expenditure I will retain anticipated launch dates wherever possible, to help centrally £1 million as a contingency reserve. representative groups and others manage their engagement I will allocate a gross national Social Fund Loans with the Government on tax policy development. Budget in line with the provisions in the Welfare Reform Act 2007. The aim is to control and manage the national allocation whilst providing consistency of Visas outcomes for budgeting loan applicants wherever they Statement live. All loans budget expenditure will be made from the gross national loans budget of £590 million. The Community Care Grant annual allocations to The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- social fund budget areas are provisional and will be Jones): My honourable friend the Minister of State for subject to in-year adjustment once the current review Immigration (Damian Green) has today made the of the funding allocation methodology has been following Written Ministerial Statement. completed. The overall national budget will remain at My right honourable friend the Home Secretary is £141 million. The purpose of the review is to determine today laying before the House a statement of changes a fairer distribution of resources between areas and to in the Immigration Rules that will bring about the first move to the optimal funding position for the new of the changes to the student visa system, which I locally based service from 2013. announced on 22 March. Details of individual Community Care Grant The changes will take effect on 21 April and will allocations will be placed in the House Libraries. introduce an interim limit on those sponsors who do Background note about the discretionary Social Fund not currently meet the new accreditation criteria and Budget will limit the number of students they can sponsor. The discretionary Social Fund budget is cash limited. These rules changes also implement the changes to the Funding for Community Care Grants is allocated to English language requirement so that those coming to each budget area for management by Jobcentre Plus study at degree level will have to speak English at an Social Fund Benefit Delivery Centres on 1 April each upper intermediate level. Others will have to speak year. The gross discretionary Social Fund budget allocated English at an intermediate level. We are also publishing for 2011-12 is £732 million. This is made up of: a statement of intent on the UK Border Agency new money (net AME)—£178.2 million; website which sets out the detail of the proposed policy changes to tier 4 and I will arrange for a copy to forecast loan recovery—£553.8 million; be placed in the House Library. loans —£590 million; This statement of changes also includes some changes grants—£141 million; and to the tier 4 rules to clarify some existing rules and to contingency reserve—£1 million. bring some requirements into the rules. Taxation: Policy We are also making some minor amendments to rules laid on 16 March, relating to prospective entrepreneurs Statement and tier 2 intra-company transfers. We are also correcting The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord omissions form the new criminality requirements at Sassoon): My honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary settlement and to clarify the application of the new to the Treasury (David Gauke) has today made the settlement rules to for highly skilled migrant programme following Written Ministerial Statement. participants.

WA 291 Written Answers[31 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 292

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Written Answers of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): Records of conventional munitions incidents are held by the Joint Service Explosive Thursday 31 March 2011 Ordnance Device Operations Centre. For years prior to 2010 only gross statistics are held in an easily Armed Forces: Aircraft accessible format. These figures are shown in the Questions following table: Asked by Lord Davies of Stamford 2006 2007 2008 2009 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they 2,725 2,485 2,195 2,130 propose to proceed with the purchase of the Rivet Joint aircraft. [HL7928] For 2010 detailed statistics showing the number of conventional munitions incidents broken down by service The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry element are available and are shown in the following of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The decision by the table: previous Government to buy three Rivet Joint aircraft was confirmed by the strategic defence and security 2010 review and this remains our intention. Until these aircraft enter service, Royal Air Force Royal Air Force 77 crews will train and deploy on United States Air Force Royal Engineers 6 Rivet Joint aircraft. Joint training began in January 2011. Royal Logistic Corps 1,318 Royal Navy 422 Asked by Lord Davies of Stamford To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Astor of Hever on Autism 17 March (WA 85-6), whether the savings for the Question scrapping of the Nimrod maritime surveillance aircraft Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill are net of the cost of mitigating assets and their operation. [HL7929] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made on the implementation of the Autism Lord Astor of Hever: There were no additional Strategy and the application of the disability equality costs relating to mitigating assets and their operation duty in relation to autism. [HL7888] since we expect to provide them, when required, from within existing resources. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): We have always made clear this Government’s commitment to Fulfilling Armed Forces: Bomb Disposal and Rewarding Lives: A Strategy for Adults with Autism Question in England (3 March 2010). Asked by Lord Moonie On 17 December 2010, the Government launched new statutory guidance on autism for health and To ask Her Majesty’s Government in how many social care, Implementing Fulfilling and Rewarding Lives. cases of death, injury or repatriation of high threat The guidance focuses on areas where health and social operators was stress a contributory factor in each care bodies can change the way they support adults of the past three years. [HL8099] with autism; increasing understanding of autism among staff; strengthening diagnosis and assessment of needs; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry improving transition support for young people with of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): Such an assessment autism; and ensuring adults with autism are included would only be possible by undertaking a thorough within local service planning. scrutiny of personal medical records, which can only The statutory guidance also informs local authorities be viewed for non-clinical reasons after obtaining the of the requirements of the disability equality duty and express consent of each individual concerned, to protect the need to pay due regard to disability issues when patient confidentiality.This would incur disproportionate carrying out their functions. Responsibility lies with cost. local service planners, commissioners and providers when identifying where improvements need to be made Armed Forces: Munitions locally to transform the lives of people with autism. Question Asked by Lord Moonie Banking Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Asked by Lord Myners conventional munitions incidents outside United Kingdom military bases were attended by personnel To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the of (a) the Royal Air Force, (b) the Royal Engineers, Financial Services Authority has tested the resilience (c) the Royal Logistics Corps, and (d) the Royal of United Kingdom banks against a big increase in Navy, in each of the past five years. [HL8096] short-term funding costs. [HL7760] WA 293 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 294

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord directors, current and past, or the Financial Services Sassoon): First, the Financial Services Authority (FSA) Authority (FSA), Bank of England or HM Treasury will test the resilience of major UK banks to an have objected to the publication of any part of the increase in short-term funding costs through its updated report commissioned by the FSA on RBS from 2011-2105 anchor stress scenario, which is applied to PricewaterhouseCoopers. [HL7908] major UK banks as part of its rolling programme of supervisory stress testing. This new anchor scenario includes the twin shock of higher interest rates and a The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord deterioration in economic growth in the initial years of Sassoon): The Financial Services Authority (FSA) is the stress scenario. aiming to deliver a publishable report to the Government and the Treasury Select Committee later this spring on Secondly, it is FSA policy to ask banks to test their the events that led to the failure of the Royal Bank of capital adequacy against a range of alternative scenarios, Scotland. in addition to the anchor scenario. One such scenario is that set out in the FSA prudential outlook published The publication of the report is a matter for the on 17 March, which features sharply rising interest FSA, as independent regulator. HM Treasury does rates in the context of rapid global growth and higher not hold any information about whether any institutions inflation. have objected to the publication of the report. Thirdly, the FSA also requires banks to evaluate The Government look forward to the publication the effect on their banking books of a sudden and of the report. unexpected change in interest rates of 200 basis points Asked by Lord Myners both upwards and downwards, holding additional capital if this would cause them losses. In addition, the FSA To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the asks firms to run a range of interest rate stresses on Financial Services Authority will be publishing a their trading books, including historical scenarios (such report into the failure of HBOS. [HL7909] as the 1994 bond market sell-off), hypothetical scenarios and point of weakness stress tests (which capture risk Lord Sassoon: The Financial Services Authority factors to which banks are significantly exposed). (FSA) is in the process of conducting investigations Finally, the FSA liquidity policy, implemented in into those banks that failed during the crisis. 2010, tests the ability of banks to survive a major The FSA has already completed one such investigation shock to short-term funding markets for a three-month into the Royal Bank of Scotland and will publish a period. report on the events that led to its failure. If any of the investigations into the other banks Banking: Bank of Scotland (Ireland) lead to enforcement action being taken, it would be Question usual for the FSA to make these outcomes public if such actions against individuals or institutions are Asked by Lord Laird successful. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will place in the Library of the House all the papers in connection with the appointment of Phil Flynn Benefits: Disability as chairman of the Bank of Scotland (Ireland). Question [HL7905] Asked by Baroness Browning The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord To ask Her Majesty’s Government which state- Sassoon): The acquisition of Halifax Bank of Scotland funded employment training schemes take into in early 2009 by Lloyds TSB Group plc created Lloyds consideration entitlement to disability living allowance. Banking Group (LBG). [HL7142] The Government’s policy is that the banks in which the Government are a shareholder, including LBG, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, should follow the disclosure requirements for companies Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): Disability listed on the Stock Exchange. living allowance (DLA) is a tax-free non-contributory The appointment of directors to the Bank of Scotland benefit which is not income-related and recipients can (Ireland), prior to the creation of LBG, was a matter spend the money as they choose. DLA is also a for the board at the time. gateway to additional support through student eligibility for people in receipt of income-related employment and support allowance (ESA), the childcare disregard Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland in housing benefit and council tax benefit and the Questions disabled child premium. Asked by Lord Myners Being in receipt of DLA is not a consideration when determining eligibility for any of the employment To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the support provision provided by the Department for Financial Services Authority’s report on the failure Work and Pensions. However, it is sometimes the case of the Royal Bank of Scotland will be published; that DLA customers must also be in receipt of other and whether the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS), its qualifying benefits to access some of the provision. WA 295 Written Answers[31 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 296

We are committed to ensuring that disabled people Civil Service: Education and Training have the same employment opportunities and chances Questions as everyone else to find and stay in paid employment, regardless of their disability and this includes people Asked by Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope in receipt of DLA. Employment support which may To ask Her Majesty’s Government what budget be available to disabled customers, including, but not provisions they have made for education and training exclusively those in receipt of DLA are outlined below: for senior civil servants over the period of the current spending review. [HL7673] Work Choice—provides tailored support to help disabled people who face the most complex barriers To ask Her Majesty’s Government what savings to employment find and stay in work and ultimately they expect to make in the provision of education help them progress into unsupported employment, and training courses for senior civil servants over where it is appropriate for the individual. Work the period of the current spending review. [HL7674] Choice is voluntary and available regardless of any To ask Her Majesty’s Government what education benefits being claimed. and training facilities for senior civil servants are being retained and delivered within the Civil Service access to work—provides practical advice and financial by the Government. [HL7676] support to employed disabled people above and beyond what the employer could reasonably provide, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what to help them overcome obstacles resulting from consultations have taken place with Civil Service disability and thus stay in work; unions and other interested parties in the formulation of any future plans for training and education residential training—for unemployed disabled adults provision for public sector employees. [HL7677] whose needs cannot be met through any other To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans government-funded programmes and is voluntary they have to privatise education and training services and available regardless of any benefits being claimed; for public sector employees currently provided by and the Government. [HL7678] Remploy—an executive non-departmental public body sponsored by the Department for Work and Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The Government are Pensions, delivers a range of employment and creating a common curriculum for training needs which development opportunities for disabled people under are generic to all departments. From April 2011, training the Work Choice programme. and development across government departments in leadership, management and the core skills every civil In addition, from April this year, the support that servant should have will be sourced through Civil Jobcentre Plus delivers to customers across all working-age Service Learning. Reforms to be introduced by Civil benefits is changing. Jobcentre Plus managers and Service Learning include a review of the training advisers will have more flexibility to judge which provided in-house and through outsourced provision. interventions will help disabled customers move towards Departments will retain responsibility for their budgets paid employment in the most cost-effective way ensuring for training and for sourcing training which is specific provision is tailored to personal and local labour to their own business needs. There is no separate training market needs. To support this Jobcentre Plus is introducing budget for senior civil servants. These changes are a suite of measures bringing together communities, expected to generate savings of around £100 million the voluntary sector, businesspeople and employers, to per year. Officials have met Civil Service trade union help get people back to work. representatives on several occasions to discuss these changes. In summer this year, the Work Programme will be introduced which will provide more personalised back- to-work support for unemployed people, including Civil Service: Official Business many customers with disabilities and health conditions. Question While not specifically targeted at DLA customers, Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark where these customers are also claiming one of the eligible benefits, they will be able to access Work To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Programme support at particular points in their claim. civil servants are entitled to first-class rail travel In many cases this access will be earlier than for a when on official business. [HL7937] jobseeker’s allowance customer. Providers will also be paid more to get harder-to-help customers, including Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Entitlement to first-class many with disabilities and health conditions, into sustained travel is part of each civil servant’s terms and conditions employment. that are managed locally by central government departments and therefore these data are not held The Minister for Disabled People also commissioned centrally. Last May, the Government put in place a an independent review of the support the Government series of efficiency measures that included limiting the provide to disabled people who want to work. This use of first-class travel and making greater use of review is being conducted by Liz Sayce, chief executive video and teleconferencing technologies. So far this of the disability organisation RADAR, and will report year, this has contributed towards over £50 million in summer this year, with recommendations on how savings in prices paid for travel and accommodation existing specialist employment support for disabled (eg by travelling standard class and purchasing advance people can better serve the department’s wide-ranging tickets) and we have achieved a further £50 million in customer base. reducing the amount of travel undertaken. WA 297 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 298

Cyclists May’s local elections are for local government, and Question are not elections for central government. It is not unreasonable therefore that more restricted rules are Asked by Lord Laird in place for the public body which is actually having To ask Her Majesty’s Government what advice the elections. they have given to the Metropolitan Police concerning By contrast, for parliamentary elections, purdah the activities of cyclists in and around Westminster. restrictions commence from the day that the general [HL8076] election is called. In this context, the principles are not substantively different from local government. The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Jones): Overall responsibility for traffic management in Westminster lies with Transport for London (TfL), Embryology in the case of the TfL road network, or otherwise with Question Westminster City Council. The police will be involved Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool only when cyclists are committing offences. This is an operational matter for the police. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answers by Lord Young of Norwood Green on 7 April 2010 (WA 433), whether the Education: Nurseries derivation of embryonic stem cell lines from human Question blastocysts created using nuclear transfers or variants Asked by Lord True thereof, publication of such work in a recognised scientific journal and deposition of the resultant To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to stem cells with the UK Stem Cell Bank are all the Written Answer by Lord Hill of Oareford on necessary prerequisites before any recommendation 17 March (HL 7488), in light of the statement that of clinical applications might or considered; and, if top-up fees are prohibited in nursery education to not, why not. [HL7860] ensure there are no barriers to accessing the benefits of private and voluntary nursery education, why it is not considered that top-up fees in universities The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, have a similar effect. [HL7869] Department of Health (Earl Howe): Any embryonic stem cell line which is intended for human therapeutic use will need to fulfil certain quality and safety The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, requirements before administration to humans. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs extent of the assessment will depend on the purpose of (Lord Henley): There is a loan scheme for higher such administration, ie clinical research, application education fees repaid by graduates: it would not be under hospital exemption or full marketing authorisation. feasible to provide loans to young children as the direct beneficiaries of early-years provision and expect Researchers wanting to obtain embryonic stem cell them to repay on similar terms. lines from human blastocysts created by means of cell nuclear transfer or other means must apply for a licence from the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Elections: Purdah Dates Authority (HFEA). It is a condition of a HFEA Question licence that a sample of the stem cell lines derived must be deposited in the UK Stem Cell Bank. To Asked by Lord Shipley deposit a human stem cell line in the bank, applicants To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the must provide copies of any published scientific papers reason for the difference in election purdah related to the derivation and/or characterisation of the dates applied to central and local government stem cell line. announcements. [HL8037] Stem cells that are intended for human application come under the regulation of the Human Tissue Authority The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, (HTA). Researchers would need to obtain a licence Department for Communities and Local Government from the HTA for the processing and storage (and (Baroness Hanham): Under the Code of Recommended distribution and import/export if these activities are Practice for Local Authority Publicity, local authorities undertaken) of tissues and cells for human application. are to take particular care as to publicity in sensitive The HTA does not require researchers to publish their periods such as those preceding an election. In councils work in a scientific journal. this period is taken to be the period after which notice The Medicines for Human Use (Clinical Trials) of elections has been given, which must be at least Regulations 2004 regulate clinical trials of stem cells 25 working days before the election date. that are medicinal products. Where products are intended For central government, there is a long established to be developed for a full licence (marketing authorisation), convention that for a period preceding local elections they specify how research on the safety and efficacy of particular care is taken in the conduct of government medicinal product in human participants should be business, including but not limited to publicity. This conducted and criteria for ethics review. No clinical period, customarily known as the election purdah trial can begin without the approval of both the period, is traditionally for three weeks before the local Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency elections. and the Gene Therapy Advisory Committee (GTAC). WA 299 Written Answers[31 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 300

GTAC has United Kingdom-wide responsibility for Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The display energy certificate the ethical oversight of clinical trials involving either for 10 Downing Street can be found at http://www gene therapy or cell therapies derived from stem cell carbonculture.net/orgs/numberl0/10-downing-street/. lines. For products intended to be used therapeutically on Government: Ministerial Responsibilities a non-routine basis, ie under hospital exemption as per Article 28 of the Advanced Therapy Medicinal Question Products Regulations (1394/2007), these will normally Asked by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead be evaluated on a case-by-case basis to ensure they fulfil the basic requirements of quality and safety. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what particular More detailed information on the regulatory duties have been undertaken by the Minister responsible requirements of a stem cell clinical trial application is for issues related to violence against women overseas. available at: www.sc-toolkit.ac.uk/home.cfm. [HL7756] The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Jones): Since her appointment to the role in November, Finance: Independent Financial Advisers the ministerial champion for tackling violence against Question women and girls overseas has undertaken a programme of induction including initial discussions with her Asked by Lord Myners counterparts in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they (FCO), the Department for International Development will ask the Financial Services Authority to review (DfID) and Ministry of Defence (MoD), and meetings the minimum capital requirements for independent with representatives from the key non-governmental personal financial advisers not holding client money, organisation (NGOs) working on this issue. She has with a view to determining whether those requirements also had a high-level meeting with Margot Wällstrom, are proportionate to risk and whether they constitute the United Nations special representative on combating an inhibition on the development of the independent violence against women, and has had an introductory discussion with Ambassador Verveer, the United States advisory sector. [HL7907] ambassador-at-large for global women’s issues. The Minister undertook a number of engagements The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord during International Women’s Day to raise the profile Sassoon): The Financial Services Authority (FSA) is of this issue and underpin the Government’s commitment an independent body, given statutory powers by the to tackling it working with our partners overseas. Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (FSMA). Its Following the passage of the Protection of Freedoms day-to-day activities, including its determination of Bill in another place, the Minister will undertake her capital requirements for independent financial advisers, first international visit. She continues to have meetings are conducted independently of the Government. with key colleagues to give and receive updates on this issue and she is working with those Ministers who will The FSA began a review of prudential rules for travel abroad to secure their agreement to promulgate personal investment firms (PIFs) in 2006 and issued a key messages on tackling violence against women and policy statement containing new rules in November girls. 2009. The process leading up to this involved publication of a consultation paper in November 2008, including the cost-benefit analysis required by the FSMA. These Health: Contaminated Blood Products documents are available on the FSA’s website. Requiring Questions PIFs to hold more capital resources will enable them to provide better redress for consumers and limit the Asked by Baroness Masham of Ilton compensation due from the Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS) in the event that they To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate are wound up. they have made of the total cost of implementing the recommendation of the government advisory The FSA estimated that, as a result of the new committee on blood, tissues and organs that the rules, there will be a reduction in the administrative P-Capt filter should be introduced for filtering blood burden to the FSCS, reduced costs to the FSA and given to those born since 1 January 1996. [HL7947] reduced compliance costs to PIFs. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): Initial assessments Government Departments: Energy of the estimated costs, which remain commercial in confidence, were made in October 2009. The Certificates recommendations of the Advisory Committee on the Question Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs (SaBTO) are Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay dependent upon the outcome of the prion filtered red blood cells in surgery patients (PRISM) study, the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what level of assessment of the results of which is not expected until display energy certificate was awarded to 10 Downing 2012. No final estimates, based on the costs applicable Street in each of the past three years. [HL7370] at that time, can be made until then. WA 301 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 302

Asked by Baroness Masham of Ilton the basis of healthcare payments between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland takes. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they [HL7843] plan to implement the recommendations of the government advisory committee on blood, tissues and organs that further measures should be introduced The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, to protect the United Kingdom blood supply from Department of Health (Earl Howe): The Governments variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. [HL7948] of the United Kingdom and Ireland are currently revising bilateral arrangements on healthcare costs to Earl Howe: Recommendations from the Advisory reflect recent changes in European Union legislation. Committee on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs The Government will publish these arrangements (SaBTO) remain under consideration by the department. once finalised. The triennial survey assesses samples SaBTO will be reviewing the recommendations on the of 1,500 pensioners in order to establish which member use of fresh frozen plasma, using updated modelling state is liable for healthcare. The proportions are then evidence produced by Imperial College, later this year. applied to the complete pensioner caseload. SaBTO’s recommendations on the use of prion filtration are dependent upon the outcome of the prion filtered red blood cells in surgery patients (PRISM) study, the assessment of the results of which is not expected Health: Reciprocal Agreements until 2012. Question Asked by Baroness Masham of Ilton Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for the future of the government advisory To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for changes to healthcare for United Kingdom committee on blood, tissues and organs. [HL7949] residents while on the Isle of Man. [HL7998] Earl Howe: By 2012, the Advisory Committee on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs, in accordance The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, with the cross-government review led by the Cabinet Department of Health (Earl Howe): The Government Office, will be reconstituted as a Department of Health/ entered into a reciprocal health agreement with the Public Health England committee of experts. Isle of Man on 1 October 2010. The agreement provides Asked by Baroness Masham of Ilton free immediately necessary healthcare to individuals from one jurisdiction on a temporary visit to the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment other. they have made of the feasibility of introducing a test to detect the presence of infectious prions in blood. [HL7951] Homelessness: Rough Sleepers Earl Howe: The potential for future use of the Question prototype diagnostic blood test for variant Creutzfeldt- Jakob disease, described in the paper published in the Asked by Lord Shipley Lancet on 3 February 2011, for blood screening purposes To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their is being considered by the United Kingdom Blood estimate of the number of homeless people sleeping Services Prion Working Group (PWG). Professor John rough over the next 12 months; and whether that Collinge and colleagues from the Medical Research number is expected to rise over that period.[HL8035] Council Prion Unit met with members of the PWG on 14 February 2011 and discussed the test. It was agreed that the assay would require further development to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, make it suitable for large-throughput blood donor Department for Communities and Local Government screening. An important next step is to establish how (Baroness Hanham): The Government do not produce specific the assay is, and blood samples from non-UK estimates of future homelessness levels. We have introduced sources are being organised to facilitate this assessment. a new way of evaluating rough sleeping levels. The last There is no fixed timetable to bring the blood test Government’s methodology ignored the true scale of into use as it is dependent on the outcomes of further the problem of rough sleeping. All areas across England test development and evaluation by the research team. now provide counts or robust estimates giving a clear national picture. Latest statistics show 1,768 rough Health: Costs sleepers in England on any one night. The next set of Question figures will be published early in 2012. Asked by Lord Laird This Government are committed to tackling rough sleeping and preventing homelessness. We have maintained To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the level of homelessness grant, with £400 million for the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 2 February local authorities and the voluntary sector over the (WA 271), whether they will publish the details of next four years. A cross-departmental ministerial working the existing bilateral arrangements with the Republic group has been set up to address the complex causes of Ireland on healthcare costs; and what form the of homelessness and improve support for homeless triennial survey of pensioners which determines people. WA 303 Written Answers[31 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 304

Housing Chancellor to authorise the overall limit on asset Question purchases. The Chancellor also authorises the continued operation of the facility. The Government confirmed Asked by Lord Kilclooney in Budget 2011 that the asset purchase facility will remain in place for the financial year 2011-12. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether housing associations in England receive public funding; and whether they are able to acquire properties outside Northern Ireland: Northern Bank Robbery the United Kingdom. [HL8011] Question The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Asked by Lord Laird Department for Communities and Local Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government what intelligence (Baroness Hanham): Private registered providers (which they received about the Northern Bank robbery in includes housing associations which are registered with 2004 before it took place. [HL7848] the social housing regulator) of social housing in England can receive public funding in the form of Lord Shutt of Greetland: It is government practice grant. The Homes and Communities Agency provides not to comment on intelligence matters. funding for the delivery of new affordable housing stock in England. There are a number of conditions placed on receiving grant, for example being registered Population with the social housing regulator for England and Question complying with its regulatory code. As independent, private businesses housing associations are free to Asked by Lord Laird acquire properties outside the United Kingdom if To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they choose to do so as long as it fits with their own they have made of the population size in their company rules and objects. However any property consideration of climate change and world poverty. acquired overseas would not qualify for any grant funding. [HL7997] Baroness Verma: The UN currently estimates that London Underground: Line Extensions the global population will grow to around 9 billion Question people by 2050, up from around 6.8 billion today. Almost all of this rapid population growth will be in Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark developing countries, which will increasingly strain To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment the abilities of Governments to deliver basic services they have made of proposals to build an extension for their people—such as education, health, food, to the tube network to Battersea Power Station. clean water and sanitation. The UN estimates that [HL7728] 215 million women in developing countries would like to delay or avoid a pregnancy but do not have access to modern family planning methods. High fertility is Earl Attlee: Any decision to extend the London associated with low female status, lack of girls’ and Underground network would be for the mayor and women’s education and empowerment, high risk of Transport for London, who would also need to ensure infant mortality and low household income. The funding was in place for such a scheme. Government are putting women and girls at the heart of our international development efforts and are Monetary Policy determined to make modern methods of family planning Question available to at least 10 million more women, contributing to a wider goal of 100 million new contraceptive users Asked by Lord Myners by 2015. Industrialised countries have generated and currently To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to continue to generate most greenhouse gas emissions. the Written Answer by Lord Sassoon on 17 March While it is growth in levels of consumption that influences (WA 99), what responsibility HM Treasury has for carbon emissions and climate change, rather than monetary policy and the rate of inflation. [HL7910] population growth, we should all consider the long-term implications of rapid population growth coupled with The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord economic development. Sassoon): As laid out in the Bank of England Act 1998, it is the Monetary Policy Committee which is operationally responsible for monetary policy and maintaining price Railways: Resignalling Projects stability. Question HM Treasury’s responsibility, in line with the Act, Asked by Lord German is to specify at least once every 12 months how price stability should be defined and what the economic To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the policy of the Government comprises. With respect to resignalling project contract specification for the the monetary policy tool of quantitative easing, the Newport area of south Wales was based on that framework for the asset purchase facility requires the section of the railroad being electrified. [HL7627] WA 305 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 306

Earl Attlee: The resignalling work in south Wales, Sex Offenders undertaken by Network Rail, is being designed and Question implemented to be compatible with the electrification commitments made by the Secretary of State for Transport Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath for the Great Western main line. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Statement repeated by Baroness Neville-Jones Retail: Surcharges (Official Report, col. 714-15) and the oral reply on Question 17 March (Official Report, col. 351) on the sex offenders register, whether they will publish the Asked by Lord Dykes relevant correspondence between the Lord Chancellor To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans and the Home Secretary. [HL7914] they have to persuade retailers to reduce their surcharges on customers paying by credit and debit The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- cards. [HL8148] Jones): In accordance with the Freedom of Information Act, Section 35(1)(b), ministerial correspondence between The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, two serving Ministers is not released as a matter of Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness course. Wilcox): Which? has submitted a super-complaint to the OFT on card payment surcharges. We will carefully consider the OFT’s response before deciding what Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory action to take. Committee Question Roads: Ring Roads Asked by Baroness Masham of Ilton Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark they have for the current functions of the Spongiform To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Encephalopathy Advisory Committee. [HL7950] they have to build a ring road around Lincoln. [HL8015] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): Following the Earl Attlee: A scheme to provide an eastern bypass government review of advisory non-departmental public of Lincoln between the A158 and the A15 is in the bodies, the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Government’s development pool of schemes being Committee will be abolished on 30 March 2011 and its promoted by local authorities. Decisions on which of functions will pass to the Advisory Committee on the 45 schemes in the pool will be funded will be made Dangerous Pathogens. It has been proposed that a by the end of the year. new risk assessment subgroup of the Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens specifically to provide risk assessment advice on transmissible spongiform Schools: Race and Religious Hatred encephalopathies be set up. Question Asked by Baroness Deech Terrorism To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they will take to investigate whether imported race and Question religious hatred material is being used in faith schools, Asked by Lord Empey including out of school religious classes. [HL8000] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for they have made whether adequate arrangements Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The Government are in place with the authorities in the Republic of want to ensure that all schools promote the UK’s Ireland to safeguard the United Kingdom border democratic values including mutual tolerance and respect against terrorist infiltration from inside and outside and a new unit has been set up within the Department the European Union. [HL8113] for Education focusing specifically on preventing extremism. The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- The Government want to ensure that inspection Jones): We believe that the arrangements in place are and other accountability arrangements provide a adequate. Excellent co-operation exists at both government sufficiently high level of assurance against the propagation and operational level on security matters, both in of extremist ideologies in schools. The Department for relation to Northern Ireland-related terrorism and Education is working with partners including Ofsted more widely. The two Governments are working in to look at how to raise inspector awareness and partnership to prevent abuse of the common travel understanding to enable more effective investigation area (CTA) by strengthening the external CTA border, and to strengthen arrangements for investigating where while preserving the right of free movement within it concerns come to light. for those who are lawfully present. WA 307 Written Answers[31 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 308

Transport: Appraisals No decision has yet been made. An announcement Question on the reforms will be made in due course. Asked by Lord Bradshaw Universities: Admissions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what percentage of benefits were made up in small time savings of Question under two minutes in the 10 most recent transport Asked by Lord True projects approved using the New Approach to Appraisal. [HL7993] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether equalities legislation applies to young people with Earl Attlee: The Department for Transport does the same qualifications applying to universities from not hold information on the percentage of benefits independent and state schools; and, if not, whether that were made up in time savings of under two they will introduce legislation to prevent discrimination minutes for the 10 most recent transport projects on the ground of educational background. [HL7870] approved. We are still considering whether to require the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, separate reporting of a classification of journey time Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs changes by size in our economic appraisals as part of (Lord Henley): Admissions decisions are a matter for our work to reform the way transport projects are higher education institutions themselves who must assessed and funding prioritisation decisions are made. abide by the relevant legislation on equal opportunities.

Thursday 31 March 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Agriculture: Single Payment Scheme...... 107 Gulf War: Veteran Mortalities...... 113

Armed Forces: Elections...... 108 Human Rights ...... 114

Armed Forces: Single Source Pricing Regulations...... 109 Independent Monitoring Commission and Independent International Commission on Decommissioning ...... 114

Bovine Tuberculosis...... 109 Insolvency...... 115

Civil Partnerships ...... 110 Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 116

Courts Service and Tribunals Service...... 111 Police: Renumeration...... 117

Department for Energy and Climate Change: DEL...... 111 Service Complaints Commissioner: Annual Report ...... 118 Social Fund Allocations...... 119 Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs: DEL ...... 112 Taxation: Policy ...... 119

Energy: Carbon Prices ...... 113 Visas ...... 120

Thursday 31 March 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Aircraft ...... 291 Health: Costs ...... 301

Armed Forces: Bomb Disposal ...... 291 Health: Reciprocal Agreements...... 302

Armed Forces: Munitions...... 291 Homelessness: Rough Sleepers...... 302

Autism ...... 292 Housing ...... 303

Banking ...... 292 London Underground: Line Extensions...... 303 Banking: Bank of Scotland (Ireland)...... 293 Monetary Policy ...... 303 Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland...... 293 Northern Ireland: Northern Bank Robbery ...... 304 Benefits: Disability...... 294 Population ...... 304 Civil Service: Education and Training...... 296 Railways: Resignalling Projects...... 304 Civil Service: Official Business ...... 296 Retail: Surcharges ...... 305 Cyclists ...... 297 Roads: Ring Roads ...... 305 Education: Nurseries ...... 297 Schools: Race and Religious Hatred ...... 305 Elections: Purdah Dates...... 297

Embryology ...... 298 Sex Offenders...... 306

Finance: Independent Financial Advisers ...... 299 Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee...... 306

Government Departments: Energy Certificates...... 299 Terrorism ...... 306

Government: Ministerial Responsibilities ...... 300 Transport: Appraisals ...... 307

Health: Contaminated Blood Products...... 300 Universities: Admissions...... 308 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL7142] ...... 294 [HL7914] ...... 306

[HL7370] ...... 299 [HL7928] ...... 291

[HL7627] ...... 304 [HL7929] ...... 291

[HL7673] ...... 296 [HL7937] ...... 296

[HL7674] ...... 296 [HL7947] ...... 300

[HL7676] ...... 296 [HL7948] ...... 301

[HL7677] ...... 296 [HL7949] ...... 301

[HL7678] ...... 296 [HL7950] ...... 306

[HL7728] ...... 303 [HL7951] ...... 301

[HL7756] ...... 300 [HL7993] ...... 307

[HL7760] ...... 292 [HL7997] ...... 304

[HL7843] ...... 302 [HL7998] ...... 302

[HL7848] ...... 304 [HL8000] ...... 305

[HL7860] ...... 298 [HL8011] ...... 303

[HL7869] ...... 297 [HL8015] ...... 305

[HL7870] ...... 308 [HL8035] ...... 302

[HL7888] ...... 292 [HL8037] ...... 297

[HL7905] ...... 293 [HL8076] ...... 297

[HL7907] ...... 299 [HL8096] ...... 291

[HL7908] ...... 294 [HL8099] ...... 291

[HL7909] ...... 294 [HL8113] ...... 306

[HL7910] ...... 303 [HL8148] ...... 305 Volume 726 Thursday No. 135 31 March 2011

CONTENTS

Thursday 31 March 2011 Questions Olympic Games 2012: Olympic Truce ...... 1335 Trade Unions: Ballots ...... 1337 House of Lords: Prayers...... 1339 EU: European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism ...... 1342 Business of the House Timing of Debates...... 1345 Draft Defamation Bill Membership Motion...... 1345 Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment of List of Responders) Order 2011...... 1345 Charities (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Order 2011...... 1345 Companies Act 2006 (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Order 2011...... 1346 Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 (Time Limit for Appeals) (Amendment) Regulations 2011 ...... 1346 Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 (Armed Forces and Reserve Forces Compensation Scheme) (Rights of Appeal) Regulations 2011 Motions to Refer to Grand Committee...... 1346 Economy: Growth Debate ...... 1346 NHS: Standards of Care and Commissioning Debate ...... 1397 Inter-parliamentary Scrutiny: EUC Report Motion to Endorse...... 1431 Written Statements...... WS 107 Written Answers...... WA 291