Communications Information Technology After Fossil Fuels

Wednesday, August 17, 2016 Speakers: Casey Hall directs Citizen's Engagement Lab's Climate Lab), Dr. Douglas Rushkoff, (author of Throwing Rocks at the Google Bus), (), Asher Miller (Post Carbon Institute)

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Monica Hello! Zach An excellent, useful read! leslie [email protected] david An exciting topic, that is for sure! leslie #renewablefuture Lovis What is the role of B incorporation in creating the renewable/sustainable future? Jack Thanks for opening this view of the human predicament leslie Check out all the free reading and the in depth analysis Asher mentioned here: leslie www.richardheinberg.com leslie http://www.rushkoff.com/ leslie http://engagementlab.org/people/casey-harrell Zach Your thoughts on how alternatives to the growth doubling down can enter the political reality would " reminds us that before we choose our tools and techniques, we must first choose our dreams and values, for some technologies serve them while others make them Craig unobtainable" Tom Bender Looking back it seems the only collective dreams and values centers on Silvia Can capitalism be reformed to be compatible with a living, livable planet? Can we have a "well- Monica Can people de reformed to think in terms that are compatible with ecological health, social respect Zach You can. People can. Ben Capitalism to serve the planet... it's a both/and. Mark This is really boring. What's the purpose here? Economics has become the language of extinction as we give value to the very things that directly Craig undermine our and future generations well being. We are heading to inter-generational suicide while Elisabeth And also the dismantling and disposal is mostly invisible (and any recycling that takes places) david We have never had a no-growth capitalism.....some folks have called for "natural capitalism"...I Elisabeth we need de-growth (it seems to me) Craig where is everyone??? they disappeared and nosound Silvia, I studied STPEC at UMASS, Every form of Government has externalized human life and life on earth due to an individualistic, I win you lose mentality. I think it is possible to use the capitalist situation we face right now. There are some things that need to change in human consciousness. The fact that money is only valuable because we think it is, gold standard has been abandoned, fractional reserve has been abandoned, money is represented by digits in a computer which are equal to the Lovis physical money in circulation. The reason money is considered to be valuable is that everyone Adela thumbs up, david banner :) John There is an excellent documentary film called Terra Blight that covers the dispensation of electronic

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Elisabeth Manufacture and shipping of renewables also requires fossil fuels Louise I thought that trucking was more energy intensive than shipping and trucks can be electrified. I think we have become slaves to our communications devices and technologies rather than using them selectively as tools. The more we use them the more we want to use them. We have become Tara addicted to economic growth in the same way. We have lost our ability to evaluate how much is Craig bingo tara To my mind perhaps the most important question is how (and which kinds) of technology can help us Michael honor "grace limits" (i.e., help us live in a way that is pro-future, rather than anti-future). I see these Ben Good to see you here Michael! Michael You too, Ben! frank A Quick Walk Through Thermodynamics - http://zerowasteinstitute.org/?page_id=2282 Craig I believe the total breakdown of the social contract will 'get us' way before we run out of non- david By being disconnected from the Source of Life, our spiritual heritage, we will always have Adela excellent, Douglas Rushkoff ! Elisabeth What does "sustainable" mean in this context? Sustaining our current lifestyles? or sustaining in his 2008 book "The Long Descent: A User's Guide to the End of the Industrial Ivan Age" addresses the limitations of technology in the future based on . His projection Lovis I think the 7.4 ... for me is solving problems without creating problems short term and Elisabeth Lovis, is that really possible? Ben Naming the elephant in the room... will a post-carbon society require us to support a much smaller Lovis Yes. Elisabeth how? Lovis systems design thinking Elisabeth that's a non answer Craig I agree Ivan frank Mandatory Corporate Ecological Impact Disclosure - Lovis First you have to say that all human life is valuable ahead of everything else. ~8 Billion human life is Elisabeth I recommend reading TechNo Fix - reading that, it became clear that *all* technology leads to @Zach Here is what I do: 1. dismiss and criticize every mainstream economist, left and right, Silvia everywhere I can 2. ask my elected officials to read economics based on physics/biology/human Elisabeth so is all other species on the planet. we say humans are more important but why? Zach Where do I find the written description of the "low hanging fruit" of environmental protection? Rose Products that Last: http://productsthatlast.nl/site/app/index2.html?#/home Ben I agree with Casey... all these small fixes aren't going to do the job. We need transformational change, Second you say that planet is valuable because we're on it... the reason #1 is most important is Lovis because we are the ones at threat of killing ourselves off with the results of etc. Craig "The eyes of the future are looking back at us and they are praying that we see beyond our own time" Michael Ivan, see here for John Michael Greer's books in audio form: http://thegreatstory.org/grace-limits- Lovis That's why I asked the B corporation question first. Ben Important question to ask... "What business are we really in?" Bruce Make no small plans Elisabeth Seems to me that we think technology will save us but I have no idea how - at the end of the day, all

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sea level rise and climate catastrophes will kill many. Poverty will kill many. New viruses will kill many. More educated women will have less children. Wars will kill people. These are the ways the Monica population will be lowered. This is why communications are so important, we have to help developing Michael Many great resources re "Why Technology Won't Save Us or Our Environment": Ben Today's technology is tomorrow's pollution. Craig I think the first question is what constitutes success? While .... "there's enough for everyman's need, Lovis Correct Monica! We need to make fossil fuels more expensive - gradually steadily, national carbon fee, and return the Louise revenue to consumers in order to steer investment into cleaner energy Michael "Today's tech is tomorrow's pollution" -- that's great, Ben! Adela @ Silvia Leahu-Aluas - would love to stay in touch re circular economy Bruce A petroleum geologist is at bottom a geologist ... we need geologists ... we may need the irreplaceable LESLIE visioning the future is our challenge, how can we communicate without the externalities Ben Thanks. And yes, we need carbon tax incentives as one good way to move us in the right direction. Monica Yes! let's find a way to keep in touch! John Google links to Terra Blight film. https://www.google.com/#q=terra+blight+watch+online+free we're talking as if the world will be "similar" to what we know now (existing companies changing, etc). Elisabeth Seems to me like we need a complete revolution in how we live on the planet. Michael Countering Techno-optimism and Techno-fetishism: http://thegreatstory.org/grace-limits- Lovis STPEC was about social though and political economy. I believe it is 100% true that politics determine Lovis If there's a will there's a way Craig yes, Elisabeth Casey, can you elaborate more on long-lasting products and how can we obsolete planned Silvia obsolescence. Engineers can do it, but finance and marketing will never allow them to, driven by That's why corps are so interested in emerging markets... more customers, more profits, more Ben extraction, and more pollution. Like lemmings heading toward a cliff, unable to stop. Bruce Walmart model is scorched earth .... it's an institution that can't change ...... Douglas is correct. The barrier is what psychologists call "the endowment bias". We choose, irrationally, to keep what we have instead of giving it up for something better. This is the same as the Todd problem of "fear of stranded assets". We do not accept that our ExxonMobil shares are zeroed out in If 8 Billion people say hey, climate change is man made, the result of burning , we have to Lovis shift ALL the capital out of fossil fuel. AND we have to invest it in renewable if we want 8 Billion Louise Make shareholders pay same tax on capital gains as workers do on earnings, and growth will be less of Lovis And some how that transition has to be equitable Monica That's right Ben! Ivan For a comprehensive resource of books,videos, statistics, organisations, and tools etc. that address Zach Well said. Chuck I recommend MichaelHShuman.com and his latest book: The Local Economy Solution Monica YES Todd!! We're dealing with social structures more than anything, one person says lets do this, another person Lovis says lets do this. Typically the person with more funny money ends up leading the pack regardless of Craig growth model is totally bankrupted, yet all who benefit can't see it..... Monica Lovis, the problem is, the rich will not give up their money or power. And that is ultimately what will

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Bruce Is cold processing possible? Ben Electrifying the supply chain does NOT address growth... we need to address unsustainable growth as Shana Casey: The Repair Coalition, iFixit and EFF are huge leaders in making our tech last longer. Michael Love your resources Ivan! Craig humans are cancer incarnate Monica Right Lovis. Today's capitalism has royal DNA: everyone wants to be king, and damn the Elisabeth we don't have enough time left to electrify the supply chain , although obviously we should try. Ben Human thinking that infinite growth is OK is cancerous thinking. Lovis Monica, correct. So my response to this is you have a few things that could happen. 1. Overthrow Lovis Personally I think Coerce is the best option. frank and of course there is the issue of population, it just keeps getting larger and larger - I know it really Monica Coerce, yes. Abandon, that too. Craig it's terminal.... is that foolish???? Elisabeth does anyone here honestly think we're going to do any of this in time?? Monica Is anyone else talking about it? Elisabeth not that we shouldn't try Ben No... I see collapse as pretty inevitable. One of my professors always said you do not need to fight, you do not need to be violent, what you Lovis need to do is go around the problem and "outdate" it... innovation. Craig Elisabeth, we owe it to our children to not go there Elisabeth but we're just moving too slowly. Monica Sure, we're running out of time, but if we don't discuss, how do we get anything done? I think there is hope in some pockets. I live in a rural area, where I am seeing more people growing Tara food themselves, living on lower incomes deliberately for a better quality of life, traveling less, cutting Elisabeth i think we should face reality and not delude ourselves. We should do everything we can, but Ben I agree Elisabeth. Monica discussion leads to action. Craig it will happen either voilunteerily or invol Monica one person at a time. Joseph @elisabeth we can save time if everyone became vegan Elisabeth all these people are talking about sustaining life as we know it now, but life as we know it now is all Ben "The best place in a crisis is the hard truths." -- Don Beck Monica right Craig! Craig baloney Craig .... Joseph Silicon Vallley problem is that most of them have zero social skills and values, if not outright Silvia sociopaths, and that they fetishize technology. I agree with previous comments: it's not the tools, it's Bruce Public sector investment has been undermined by the tax structure that's starving it of critical Zach Can you ask Casey to repeat the last thing he said? Joseph time in a climate sense Lovis It's not that we need to sustain life as we know it. It's that we need to sustain the 8 billion on the Louise Casey said "huge advances have come from the public sector'

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We're heading in the West toward slower growth simply via demographics (aging population). So the Ben whole growth model is itself slowing down and naturally ending... we need to understand this. Monica I don't think we can sustain 8bil w/o losing biodiversity and wilderness. Elisabeth we're already locked into 3C warming right now today even if we stopped all CO2 emissions. we need Life is going to look different for sure! Social structures will be different, the outcome of those social Lovis structures will be different the effect I hope will be sustainable existence (defined by solving problems Monica yup Craig Question for Richard, If we had a 'steady state' energy consumption, what % of reduction would we Good points, Ms. Robson. I think average people who divorce themselves from the "look at GDP" as the source of all progress will change for the better. But our leaders, both business and political, have Russell so much of their power derived from the existing system - they will never change. We have to move Elisabeth yes Russell which is why I use the word "revolution" Elisabeth thinking as we are today, will not get us anywhere. We need completely different thinking. Lovis My question is for Casey, "What is the role of B corporations in creating sustainability?" Ben How about a metric that measures sustainable vs. unsustainable GDP??? If you measure it, you can Elisabeth These devices serve only to keep us sheep. Monica I agree Elisabeth! Tara Why not abandon GDP and go for GPI Craig Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.... said 2400 years ago.... Aristotle.... how far have we Russell Agreed, Ms. Robson - we are beyond the 'steady incremental' phase frank exponential growth in the underlying issue, isn't it? Lovis Yes Tara! Ben It's not necessary to 'abandon' a metric... they're not mutually exclusive. We can use both. Silvia Asher, we created this system, we'll have to change it. A way to slow down and get out of the Louise Can we get back to the topic - 'Tech and communications after fossil fuels' less please on feelings Lovis The thing that's ridiculous to me is that climate change started in the 50s Elisabeth Solution? we need to give up all technology! :-) John Will a recording of this webinar be available to participants or others? LESLIE absolutely! I was hoping for more solutions oriented discussin Lovis Me too Leslie leslie @John Duvall: A recording will be sent to everyone who registered Lovis YESSSSSS douglas Joseph @elisabeth. i think veganism is easier than giving up technology Elisabeth veganism will not solve the problem. it will help. Lovis The belief that humans are not God creates a demonic experience. Maia Give up all technology? What about just scaling down, recycling, sharing...? Elisabeth (I am mostly vegan) Elisabeth how do you get to zero carbon with technology? Lovis that all of existence is somehow separate from god. Elisabeth I'm really curious to know. Joseph @elisabeth ya just give us more time to transition to other systems.

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Lovis - if we don't get to it in the Q&A - I think B corps can provide an alternative economic model to think about what Douglas was saying - to better integrate labor and land with capital. Can we Casey experiment with B corps and other models to build a viable alternative to the current system? In a Lovis or a higher power, whatever not just "god" Ben Decoupling GHG from growth is a key piece. Craig solution - will all rich and big consumers please exit the planet immediately. We thank you in Joseph @casey i think all corporations will eventually become B Corps Ben Change corporate charters... easy solution? It occurs to me that this topic could be a great intro to audiences who are naive about resource limits, John We're all very involved with media technology - I teach on a university campus, where a LOT of people Elisabeth we've had high quality teleconferencing for years and aviation travel continues to rise. Francesco the question is whether the "corporation" itself is compatible with the goal to get there or it is Craig How can you talk about conservation when our rate structures undermine conservation? Joseph @john good idea. also resource alternatives. Chuck Joseph: Yes to B Corps as only option - social enterprises, co-ops, as well. THis discussion seems awful heady and theoretical. Each of us, rich or poor, can reorient toward Maia scaling down, repairing, reusing, co-owning, sharing... right in own neighborhoods...now...Yes?? Lovis The thing that's great about B corps is the executive team can decide to not do an action of the Craig and in Oregon electric cooperatives are the worse offenders ....undermining conservation Ben Every enterprise needs to be "social" ... otherwise it's inherently not sustainable. Lovis if the action is going to amount in loss of human life or hurting people or planet It would make the transition from existing Corporate Charters to B-Corp incorporation faster if Lloyd governments simply set policies such that only B-Corporations were able to access public taxpayer Joseph @maia yes. we can do our part Lovis That's a good idea Lloyd! leslie www.fairphone.com/ Francesco doing our part is all right, but we are discussing corporations and companies. Francesco are they even capabe of doing their part? So solutions based, I think we need to reconnect with each other face to face at least on a community level. Instead of texting your spouse or friend, talk to them. Then we need to design tech so we can re- Tara use things not just throw them away and upgrade, perhaps plug in a new part rather than throw away Ben Good ideas Tara. Francesco @Tara: the importance of slowing down is a crucial one. Lovis There needs to be a way to connect money with benefiting existence Lovis impact investing Craig can't we get beyond phones and talk about the real energy issues @ Casey, that is a very important point: everybody is performing best at discrete level, but somehow Silvia the aggregate is failing. Or all relative measures look good, efficiency, intensity, productivity, but Lovis social entrepreneurship Elisabeth Yes Craig Lovis Benefit Corporations Louise Ceres and Carbon Disclosure Project are helping corporations measure and reduce their footprints. Ben We're talking about systemic paradigm-shifting change that affects everything... so by nature it's very

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Joseph @francesco it's better for them to do the right thing if they can make money at the same time. Maia Agree with you, Ben... Maia Agree with you, Ben. Joseph @ben agree Elisabeth But we need to start somewhere! Craig do any of you think companies will be around in 10 years? Ben Actually, we need to start EVERYWHERE. @joseph: sure the big motivator will push them , but the whole money-driven institution , profit- Francesco driven instituion, sin;t it inherently incapable of doing the right thing in the long term? That's what I Elisabeth I don't, Craig or maybe 20 Craig or even 5 years Lovis Ben I think B. Corps. embody that I am not just talking phones but technology. i know the Canadian government keeps talking about Tara greentech as the way forward, which i do not agree with, they are just talking about more of the same New macroeconomics - MMT (Modern Monetary Theory) key to using finance to run the economy to Chuck benefit the public, not the 1%. Stephanie Kelton is leading spokesperson. Treasury must own the Fed. Maia This format isn't terribly "social"... Lovis the thing is their only legal entities in 5 states Craig let's talk about the transitions ahead..... Francesco @Maia: :-) When the Middle East becomes truly unliviable and we have millions of refugees streaming out of Elisabeth there every year, our focus is going to be on technology to deal with the war and problem caused by Silvia Fairphone still make the phones in low-cost countries, so there goes their sustainability claims for me. Lovis Rhode Island, New York, Delaware, Cali... idk the other one Craig when there are drive by shooting in every neighborhood every day.... then... Craig what Francesco @douglas: isn't size always a crucial point? Joseph we should optomize for sustainability Elisabeth Except those neighborhoods where all the CEO's living, the ones with big walls and gates. Craig Elisabeth,,,,, there opulance with make them a target... Elisabeth True! Lovis Shoes are technology Elisabeth I think our future is Snowcrash + Escape from New York :-) Francesco @asher: the smart worul be a mix of the two... Francesco would be a mix of the two Lovis GOOOOOD Craig this isn't a deep dive... I wish it was Ben Technology is a mirror of our consciousness... raising consciousness may mean eventually letting go of Lovis YESSSS Lovis yesssss Lovis yessss Lovis PhoneBlocks Joseph @richard you could also build things to be modular, and/or recyclable.

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Craig I'm fortunate. I'm not smart enough to have a smart phone Monica YESSSS Richard! frank how can the IT system be hacked so all these ideas can infiltrate and change this headlong advance of Lovis Chitin can replace all plastic products Zach quite smart 18 rule, ..., Richard. Elisabeth Yep! Richard said it. Tech sector ultimately doesn't work I think.... Perhaps Mr. Miller, we should note that 'technology' can be viewed as a form of 'progress', and since Russell we are taught we must always make progress - then we must continue to develop technology. So, we Lovis yesssssss Francesco @Richard:yes , tech to survive will have to be smarter tech Elisabeth Yeah, substituting for slavery! Lovis we're not believing we have. Francesco smalle, scalable Edward no one is talking about the tolls on the information super highway called ISPs like verizon and comcast Ben "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Arthur C. Clarke Elisabeth Big projects before technology were built by and large, by slaves Ben or maybe Isaac Asimov? Craig When humans become extinct, I wonder if any animals which survive will find them useful??? Lovis haha Craig. Our current level of consciousness simply doesn't have the context for imagining what's next, just like Ben back in the early 20th century the idea of a smartphone didn't even exist. Edward Portable devices are a fad Lovis God that's depressing Francesco @casey: you are hitting the nail on the head vcasey @ Louis, agree. Nuts and bolts are technology, by the way a much more critical technology than any Silvia app, smart watch, violin-playing robots and other useless products high-tech is flooding us with. Nust Lovis Casey!!!! What are the key benefits of IT and comm tech? What should we keep, and how? e.g., local mesh Brian networks could improve the efficiency of a local currency and resource sharing Joseph @ben you should look into futures studies Monica YESSSS Casey! Lovis you are talking about CresolGlobal Lovis the startup I founded frank where's the terminal for coding the changes that are needed? Lovis Yes! Frank @casey: in fact we can want tp do all the improvement we want, but if the inequality in society is Francesco handing power over to the pro-slavery elite, that destroys the purpose Zach Asher's mike is reducing him to the sound of mumbling. Lovis The professor for a sci fi class that I took in college believed and theorized that sci fi predicts Joseph @louis nice startup ideas Lovis the reason it predicts is because it actually influences Lovis Thanks Joseph! Joseph @louis like star trek, haha

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Silvia Thank you for your work and for this excellent conversation. Here is an hour well spent, while Lovis I just found an entrepreneurship hub in New Haven... I've been looking for people to work with for 5 Francesco @casey: thanks! Shana @casey: Community tool lending libraries....also hugely transformative. Francesco very interesting Lovis Yes Joseph! We are starting up a dynamic building material that can produce all of its own power with BIPV . Our nanocomposite is a super material that is the most resilient material out there- protects from climate change, generates power, provides a thermal barrier, hypoallergenic, antimicrobial-This was invented Jan by a top Gov physicist at the request of FEMA and HUD. I was in the Cleantech Open 2013 -- This Francesco https://it.ifixit.com/ Francesco sorry I posted the one in Italian, of cours ethere is also in English Joseph @louis nice we have a few things like that going on here in Honolulu. Lovis Jan do you have a site? Lovis or a way to contact you? Shana http://ifixit.org/blog/6992/digital-right-to-repair/ Craig WOuld participants be willing to share their contact info through this webinar? So we can continue it Francesco @casey: yes the political process is also crucial Louise Join Citizens Climate Lobby Ben Does it need to get worse (e.g. Trump presidency) before we hit bottom and MUST change? I wonder Francesco Happy to share my contact Francesco @ craig: happy to share my contact Eric we need this discussion to happen more regulalry!!! Craig me too Silvia IFixit are super-cool. Here is another community I work for and iFixit supports https://oscedays.org/ Louise Ask your insurance companies to set their rates with climate science, green their operations and LESLIE thank you for the ideas and resources I did not see the truths presented in this conversation connected together into a true veiw of the Jack human predicament and a true view of the changes that are required to have our children have a Lovis Need to factor in externalities to product creation if consumerism is the model Brian Thanks to each of our panelists! John Like! Louise Thanks. Jack Please see www.skil.org ofr my solutions. Jan I find it hard that the bay area has not set standards to use Resilient materals for building in SF Francesco thanks so much to all the panelists!! Ben Thanks Richard, Casey, Douglas and Asher! Francesco it was really interesting Lovis Jan Francesco thanks to all!!!!

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