Fourth Session, 41st Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES (HANSARD)

Monday, May 13, 2019 Afernoon Sitting Issue No. 255

THE HONOURABLE DARRYL PLECAS, SPEAKER

ISSN 1499-2175 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC

Fourth Session, 41st Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Darryl Plecas

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Carole James Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Attorney General...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens’ Services...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy...... Hon. Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Trade and Technology...... Hon. Minister of State for Trade...... Hon. Minister of Labour ...... Hon. Minister of Mental Health and Addictions...... Hon. Judy Darcy Minister of Municipal Afairs and Housing...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction...... Hon. Shane Simpson Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon. Claire Trevena

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Ofcial Opposition...... , QC Leader of the Tird Party ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Joan Isaacs Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Acting Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Clerk Assistant — Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ...... Susan Sourial Sessional Law Clerk...... Loredana Catalli-Sonier, QC Parliamentary Counsel ...... S. Suzie Seo Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz Acting Sergeant-at-Arms...... Randall Ennis, MMM, CD ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Penticton Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton ...... Hon. Darryl Plecas Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Michael de Jong, QC Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Boundary-Similkameen...... Linda Larson Begg, Garry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Guildford Burnaby–Deer Lake ...... Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Katrina Chen Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Donna Barnett Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End ...... Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Chilliwack...... John Martin Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack-Kent...... Laurie Troness Chow, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fraserview Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Joan Isaacs Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Hon. Selina Robinson Conroy, Hon. Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Courtenay-Comox ...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Darcy, Hon. Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley ...... Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... ...... de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West ...... Dean, Mitzi (NDP)...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Esquimalt-Metchosin...... D’Eith, Bob (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Dix, Hon. Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Tompson...... Donaldson, Hon. Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Tompson ...... Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Kelowna–Lake Country...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Steve Tomson Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam ...... Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay East ...... Foster, Eric (BC Liberal)...... Vernon-Monashee Kootenay West ...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Fraser, Hon. Scott (NDP) ...... Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Langford–Juan de Fuca...... Hon. John Horgan Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ...... Cowichan Valley Langley...... Mary Polak Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Langley East ...... Rich Coleman Glumac, Rick (NDP)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Bob D’Eith Heyman, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Hon. Lisa Beare Horgan, Hon. John (NDP) ...... Langford–Juan de Fuca Mid Island–Pacifc Rim ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Nanaimo ...... Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... James, Hon. Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Nechako Lakes ...... Johal, Jas (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Queensborough Nelson-Creston...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)...... Delta North New Westminster ...... Hon. Judy Darcy Kang, Anne (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake North Coast...... Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)...... Shuswap North Island ...... Hon. Claire Trevena Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Tornthwaite Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ...... Courtenay-Comox Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Parksville-Qualicum ...... Michelle Stilwell Ma, Bowinn (NDP)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Peace River North...... Malcolmson, Sheila (NDP) ...... Nanaimo Peace River South...... Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Penticton...... Martin, John (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack Port Coquitlam ...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–North Tompson Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Mungall, Hon. Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount...... Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)...... Saanich North and the Islands ...... Paton, Ian (BC Liberal)...... Delta South Richmond-Queensborough ...... Jas Johal Plecas, Hon. Darryl (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South ...... Linda Reid Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston...... John Yap Popham, Hon. Lana (NDP)...... Saanich North and the Islands...... Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South...... Hon. Lana Popham Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Shuswap ...... Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond South Centre Skeena ...... Rice, Jennifer (NDP)...... North Coast Stikine ...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Robinson, Hon. Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale...... Marvin Hunt Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)...... Skeena Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Jagrup Brar Routledge, Janet (NDP)...... Burnaby North Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Guildford ...... Garry Begg Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton...... Hon. Harry Bains Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Surrey-Panorama...... Hon. Jinny Sims Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey South...... Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley...... Hon. Bruce Ralston Sims, Hon. Jinny (NDP) ...... Surrey-Panorama Surrey–White Rock...... Tracy Redies Singh, Rachna (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Vancouver-Fairview ...... Hon. George Heyman Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna West Vancouver–False Creek...... Sam Sullivan Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. George Chow Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–South Tompson Vancouver-Hastings ...... Hon. Shane Simpson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Kensington ...... Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kingsway ...... Hon. Adrian Dix Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Langara ...... Michael Lee Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Hon. Melanie Mark Tomson, Steve (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. David Eby, QC Tornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Troness, Laurie (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack-Kent Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond North Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Hon. Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (BC Green Party) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake ...... Hon. Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Ralph Sultan Yap, John (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ......

Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; BC Green Party 3; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Monday, May 13, 2019 Afernoon Sitting Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 9199

Introduction and First Reading of Bills...... 9200 Bill M216 — Defbrillator Public Access Act S. Bond

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 9201 CleanBC program and housing projects in Nanaimo S. Malcolmson B.C. EggFest barbecue festival in Chilliwack J. Martin Victoria Community Leadership Awards M. Dean Moose Lake wind power project M. Bernier Sanctuaries for farm animals and work of Hugo and Sarien Slabbert R. Glumac Deb Fisher and Summit Youth Centre D. Clovechok

Oral Questions...... 9203 Use of email and messaging by Citizens’ Services Minister S. Bond Hon. J. Sims J. Johal Protection of old-growth forests A. Olsen Hon. D. Donaldson Allegations regarding communication practices of Citizens’ Services Minister M. Polak Hon. D. Eby P. Milobar M. de Jong Hon. J. Horgan Closing of Quesnel mill and government policies on forest industry C. Oakes Hon. J. Horgan S. Tomson Hon. D. Donaldson Wages for community social services workers J. Martin Hon. S. Simpson T. Shypitka

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills ...... 9208 Bill 32 — Protected Areas of British Columbia Amendment Act (No. 2), 2019 Hon. G. Heyman J. Tegart Hon. G. Heyman Bill 8 — Employment Standards Amendment Act, 2019 Hon. H. Bains

Report and Tird Reading of Bills...... 9210 Bill 11 — Civil Forfeiture Amendment Act, 2019 Second Reading of Bills ...... 9211 Bill 8 — Employment Standards Amendment Act, 2019 (continued) Hon. H. Bains J. Martin A. Weaver

Reporting of Bills...... 9217 Bill 7 — Business Practices and Consumer Protection Amendment Act, 2019

Second Reading of Bills ...... 9217 Bill 8 — Employment Standards Amendment Act, 2019 (continued) A. Weaver

Report and Tird Reading of Bills...... 9219 Bill 27 — Ticket Sales Act

Second Reading of Bills ...... 9219 Bill 8 — Employment Standards Amendment Act, 2019 (continued) A. Weaver S. Malcolmson L. Troness R. Singh S. Cadieux J. Tornthwaite D. Davies Hon. H. Bains Bill 30 — Labour Relations Code Amendment Act, 2019 Hon. H. Bains J. Martin A. Weaver Hon. J. Sims

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of the Whole House...... 9241 Bill 11 — Civil Forfeiture Amendment Act, 2019 M. Morris Hon. M. Farnworth Bill 7 — Business Practices and Consumer Protection Amendment Act, 2019 R. Coleman Hon. M. Farnworth Bill 27 — Ticket Sales Act M. Morris Hon. M. Farnworth

Committee of Supply ...... 9247 Estimates: Ministry of Health Hon. A. Dix L. Reid

Proceedings in the Birch Room

Committee of Supply ...... 9266 Estimates: Ministry of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources (continued) T. Shypitka L. Troness Hon. M. Mungall S. Furstenau P. Milobar E. Ross M. Bernier 9199

MONDAY, MAY 13, 2019 Child Development Centre. We have some guests here today from there who are meeting with the minister. Can we all Te House met at 1:37 p.m. please make Shawn Matthewson, Susan Carr and Brent Faw- dry feel very welcome. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] S. Bond: I have three guests to introduce today. First of Routine Business all, I want to welcome Mark Collinson, who is the director of government relations and health promotions with Heart Introductions by Members and Stroke. Of course, he’s joined by Mary Stambulic, who is the manager of advocacy and government relations. I know J. Tornthwaite: I have some great guests today from the that every member of the House would know how very hard Canadian Association of Executives. I’d like the House to these two individuals work on behalf of Heart and Stroke be introduced to Douglas MacLaren, Ron Tu, Steve Back- right across the province. Tey do an exceptional job. lock, Cathy Hunter, Seth Li, Giovanna Boniface, Kerry Sim- Sitting right beside them today is actually my husband, mons, Michelle Kozma, Annabree Fairweather, Janet Mor- Bill. Most of you would know that Bill went through some ris-Reade, Toby Kirshin, Tomas Foreman, Colleen Fore- very difcult circumstances with heart health. We are very man, Marcus Ewert-Johns, Diane Gaudet and Gary Pooni. grateful for the exceptional care that he received, giving us a We also had guests from the Capilano Students Union. chance to just recently reach our 40th wedding anniversary. Tey would be Shanti Scarpetta-Lee, Happy Singh, Tristin So we’re very thankful for that. As a result of that, we have a Greyeyes and Noah Berson. Tey were all at a luncheon very close tie with Heart and Stroke across the province, and today celebrating the Canadian Association of Executives, we’re very grateful for the support they’ve provided. B.C. chapter, and many MLAs were there. Please join me in welcoming my three special guests this Could the House please make them welcome. afernoon.

Hon. J. Sims: As a teacher, it’s always a delight for me N. Simons: I have the pleasure to introduce a guest from when students come to visit the Legislature and see demo- the Sunshine Coast in the House today — Noel Muller, a cracy, with all its warts, at work. It also reminds me of the former district of Sechelt councillor, an active citizen. He’s time I used to bring students to visit these hallowed halls so job-shadowing today. I hope he’s not afer my job. I’m not that they could watch the democratic process. teaching him much so far. I’d like to ask my colleagues in the Well, today I have, in the precinct, two classes visiting House to make him welcome. from Hyland Elementary School in my constituency of Sur- rey-Panorama. I had a chance to visit with one group this Hon. G. Heyman: Today B.C. members of Citizens Cli- morning, and I’m going to be meeting with the other class mate Lobby are in Victoria to speak to MLAs. It’s a grass- this afernoon. Tey are accompanied by a number of par- roots, non-partisan, volunteer-run organization. Since 2010, ents and, of course, Mrs. Erin Potts, their teacher. Tese groups of Citizens Climate Lobby across Canada have been are grade 5 students. Tere are two grade 5s there. Will the lobbying governments and elected representatives, encour- House please join me in welcoming these students to the aging action on climate change. Tey’ll be in the Hemlock precinct. Room from 2:30 to 3:30, I believe, this afernoon. I encour- age my colleagues to go and meet with them. I’ll be meeting S. Sullivan: I have two special guests today from Van- with them later this afernoon. couver. One is Pamela Groberman of the Pamela Grober- Will the House please welcome Paul Campbell, Grace man Media and Public Relations company. She’s very Campbell, Kathryn Oldfeld, Keith McNeill, Judy O’Leary, involved in so many things that go on in Vancouver — Laura Sacks and Marlo Firme from Citizens Climate housing, buildings, hotels, art shows, etc. I know she’s very Lobby B.C. active with the Aboriginal Mother Centre as well. With her is David Goldberg, who is with Kuehne and Nagel, the A. Weaver: It gives me great pleasure to introduce two largest freight-forwarding company in the world. Please people. Of course, the frst is Noel Muller, who was actually make them feel welcome. already introduced by the member from Sunshine Coast. I [1:40 p.m.] couldn’t help but stand and also welcome him, in light of the opening that the member gave, with respect to his job posi- Hon. L. Beare: Child and family development centres tion in the future. across the province promote healthy child development by Noel is a former member of the B.C. Green provincial identifying children at risk for developmental delays at an council. We’re very grateful that he is attending today and early age. Tey help children achieve their fullest potential thank the member for Powell River–Sunshine Coast for get- with early intervention. In my community, we have a very ting him ready to take that seat at some point in the future. strong child development centre with the Ridge Meadows It also gives me enormous pleasure to introduce Andy 9200 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

MacKinnon, a forest ecologist and Metchosin city councillor. tive tours of the Royal B.C. Museum’s First Peoples gallery He was a B.C. Green candidate in the last provincial election. from a First Nations perspective. Andy has co-authored six best-selling books about plants of Blessed Sacrament is celebrating their 65th anniversary western North America. He truly knows the importance of this year. When it was formed, it was located in the heart of preserving Vancouver’s old growth and the importance of Vancouver’s French village on Heather Street and East 16th the biodiversity that survives within that old growth. Would Avenue. I’d ask everybody to please join me to recognize the House please make him feel very welcome. the 65th anniversary of Blessed Sacrament, and please give a warm welcome to all the students, teachers and parents here Mr. Speaker: Member, Powell River–Sunshine Coast. with us today. Sorry. Nanaimo–North Cowichan. I think Powell River– Sunshine Coast has already had his turn. J. Rustad: Today I have two guests down from my riding, from Vanderhoof. It’s rare to have people come this far, down D. Routley: Tanks, Mr. Speaker. I like sharing my time to the Legislature, but they’re down visiting family and also with the member. on a little bit of a holiday break. One of them was my former Right now I’d like to ask the members of the B.C. Legis- CA, Nadine Frenkel. She just retired at the end of April. lature to help me introduce and welcome two of my constitu- Congratulations to Nadine. She served with me for quite a ency assistants, Patty McNamara and Cayla Masur. Accom- few years. Her husband, of course, Brian Frenkel, who was a panying Cayla and Patty are Cayla’s children: Brook, who’s councillor in Vanderhoof, is also now retired. 11; Farren, who’s eight; and Mallen, who’s six. Tey’re learning how to try to adjust to a bit of retirement We say we live, work and play in the communities that we life. Tey’re down here in the Legislature, of course, visiting. come from. Tese three live to play, and they work at playing I suspect they may be back and wanting to do a little bit all the time. Can we please welcome all fve. of work down the road. But who knows? To both of them, would the House please make them welcome. T. Redies: I just wanted to welcome two people who are fairly familiar with this House: Blair Qualey, the CEO of the R. Glumac: I’d like to welcome some of my family that’s B.C. New Car Dealers Association, and Jef Hall, also of the visiting today. Tey came to see me. Tey’re directly above association. me, so technically, they can’t see me. But trust me. I’m here. [1:45 p.m.] My aunt Sandra, my brother Ray and niece Cassandra. Some of us were out there at lunch looking at all the lovely Would the House please make them feel welcome. new electric vehicle cars and hoping that we can get into one, I think, in the not too distant future. A. Olsen: I’d like to introduce four guests to the Legis- Tanks for bringing the cars today, gentlemen, and for lature this afernoon. Kathy Code is the vice-chair of the reaching out to us to show what your industry is producing. Ecoforestry Institute and Wildwood Ecoforest just north of us here. As well, I’d like to introduce three friends from the D. Davies: It gives me great pleasure to introduce a Ancient Forest Alliance: Andrea Inness, Rachel Ablack and family that’s visiting here from Fort St. John. Tey’re also Stephanie Korolyk. I’d like to thank them for their hard work joined by their family, who is visiting from the Philippines protecting old growth. Would the House please make them today. Tey must still be in line somewhere, probably wait- all feel welcome. ing to get in. I’d like to welcome Charles Santa Maria, Ching Santa Maria, Joseph, Jose, Joseph Sr., Prudence and Hon. M. Mungall: I’d like to say a special thank-you Dr. Christine Santa Maria. Would the House please make to Blair Qualey, who’s president of the New Car Dealers them all feel welcome today. Association, and Jef Hall, who’s the chairperson of the New Car Dealers of Canada. Both of them were instru- M. Elmore: I’m very pleased to welcome two classes from mental in making our EV Day today at the Legislature the Vancouver French immersion Catholic school, Blessed such a success. Tey are here in the gallery. May the House Sacrament, here to the Legislature. Tey are the grade 5 class please make them welcome. led by their teacher Mr. Marc Tremblay and teaching assist- [1:50 p.m.] ant Mr. Hervé Pélager. Te grade 4 class is led by their teach- er Mr. Luc Bengono. Parent volunteers are also with them. Introduction and First Reading of Bills Accompanying we have Aljonita Montinola; Michelle Vil- laverde with her daughter Jade; and Maita Santiago with her BILL M216 — DEFIBRILLATOR daughter, also my goddaughter, Lexie. PUBLIC ACCESS ACT Te visit at the Legislature…. I spoke to their classes last January. Te group spent the morning at the Royal Museum S. Bond presented a bill intituled Defbrillator Public of B.C., where they participated in the EAGLE program, a Access Act. cultural awareness program that teaches a series of interpre- Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9201

S. Bond: I move that a bill intituled Defbrillator Public afordable housing complex unlike anything else around. Access Act, of which notice has been given in my name on Nuutsumuut Lelum, a joint project from the Nanaimo the order day, be introduced and now read for a frst time. Aboriginal Centre and B.C. Housing, is culturally designed, Sudden cardiac arrest can happen to anyone, anywhere cedar-sided and built to use 90 percent less energy in its and at any time without warning. Only one person in ten passive house design. It’s home to 25 Indigenous families. It’s will survive their cardiac arrest. We know that when CPR beautiful. Last weekend the Canadian Home Builders Asso- and an automated external defbrillator, or AED, are used, ciation of Vancouver Island awarded it the high performance the chance of survival improves dramatically. AEDs are safe, award at the VIBE gala in Nanaimo. simple and easy to use. Tey guide users with a step-by-step At Nuutsumuut Lelum, I met Sandra, so proud about her voice instruction and will only shock if needed. new home. In the past, Sandra’s kids were taken from her Tis bill, if passed, would require AEDs to be available because of fooding in her unhealthy rental housing. Now in public spaces, such as libraries, airports and recreation she’s in the nicest place she’s ever lived, with multiple gener- centres; for there to be signage indicating the exact loca- ations of her family living together under one roof. tion of AEDs; and for all AEDs to be registered, regularly Te stories like this shock and inspire me. Bad housing inspected and maintained so that a 911 dispatcher can dir- really harms. Making our buildings and communities more ect bystanders to the nearest AED. In addition, the bill environmentally friendly builds health, jobs and afordabil- would introduce clear civil liability protection so that no ity, plus it cuts carbon emissions. Tis idea that the transition one feels uncertain as to whether or not to use one in a to a low-carbon economy also improves quality of life is at cardiac emergency. the heart of CleanBC, our government’s new climate plan. Likely all of us here know someone who has died from Nanaimo’s got $200 million of new builds in the frst a cardiac arrest. No one in British Columbia should have month of this year alone. Tat’s equivalent to all of last year’s to die as a result of a cardiac arrest in a public gathering construction value. Te green-building industry employs space. Rapid access to defbrillation or AEDs could mean 32,000 people in B.C., in jobs like architecture, manufactur- the diference between life and death in a cardiac arrest ing and installation. situation, yet far too few public places are equipped with CleanBC builds on that. We’ve got new incentives for one. Too many are stowed away in ofces, behind counters owners in the construction industry to build more high- or in other inaccessible locations. Too few are regularly efciency buildings. Tree hundred new afordable housing maintained and registered with B.C. emergency health ser- units in Nanaimo will be built to step 2 or 3 of the new B.C. vices’ AED database. Too many British Columbians are energy step building code. fearful of using an AED. [1:55 p.m.] Tis bill builds upon the important work done through Folks renovating private homes can receive rebates for the B.C. public access to defbrillation program, which was a electric heat pumps, for installing insulation, for replacing partnership between the province and the Heart and Stroke older, drafier windows and doors with better insulated ones. Foundation. Together, we can ensure that a widespread, pre- Energy incentives and rebates are a win on multiple fronts — dictable and life-saving network of AEDs exists in British healthier homes, more jobs, savings on bills and cutting car- Columbia. bon emissions.

Mr. Speaker: Te question is frst reading of the bill. B.C. EGGFEST BARBECUE FESTIVAL IN CHILLIWACK Motion approved. J. Martin: Well, hon. Speaker and colleagues, it’s just S. Bond: I move that the bill be placed on the orders of about that time of year once again. You knew I wasn’t going the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House to keep you waiting much longer. Everyone’s favourite barbe- afer today. cue food festival, the B.C. EggFest, is just around the corner, and once again, it promises to be eggsellent. Roughly 20 Bill M216, Defbrillator Public Access Act, introduced, teams will be barbecuing all day long on the Big Green Egg read a frst time and ordered to be placed on orders of the ceramic cooker. Tey’ll be grilling and smoking their spe- day for second reading at the next sitting of the House afer cialties to feed the hungry public. today. Among the cooks once again will be BBQ Brian Misko from the House of Q, one of the most accomplished and Statements (Standing Order 25B) decorated pitmasters in North America. Tere’ll be pork shoulder, chicken thighs, beef brisket, tenderloin, pork belly, CLEANBC PROGRAM AND wings, bacon, things wrapped in bacon, tri-tip, duck legs, HOUSING PROJECTS IN NANAIMO cold beef ribs and so much more. Tere’ll be barbecue on a plate, barbecue on a stick, barbecue in a bun, barbecue on a S. Malcolmson: On Nanaimo’s Bowen Road, there’s a new 9202 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 pizza, barbecue in a tortilla. Tere’ll even be specialty grilled MOOSE LAKE WIND POWER PROJECT non-meat items for the vegetarians. Actually, Mr. Speaker, I’dlike to withdraw that last remark. M. Bernier: My riding, Peace River South, is home to the Tere’ll be nothing of the sort. My apologies for misleading very frst wind project in British Columbia, the Bear Moun- this House. tain Wind Park. Now the most recent wind project to be Each team will be cooking multiple items generously commissioned in B.C. is also in my riding and has set anoth- donated by Johnston’s Pork, Meadow Valley Meats and er record by installing the largest onshore turbine blades in Fraser Valley Specialty Poultry. Tere’ll be cooking demon- all of North America. On April 4, the Moose Lake wind farm strations, live entertainment. Will there be axe throwing? near started spinning, with 71-metre blades, Well, darn right there’s going to be axe throwing. What a silly which, on a high-wind site, provides a gross capacity factor question. of almost 50 percent. It all happens Sunday, May 26, in the parking lot of Grand [2:00 p.m.] Pappy’s Home Furniture in Chilliwack. I hope you have a Te Moose Lake site will produce approximately 60 giga- chance to come by my tent and check out what’s smoking. watt hours of power in a year, which is enough to power Just a couple of words of barbecue wisdom before I wrap around 5,000 homes or take about 160,000 cars of the road. it up: a hog has one job in this world, and that is to be deli- It’s a four-tower project, a product of 22 months of construc- cious. tion, employing the equivalent of 50 full-time workers. On- site tradespeople range from roadbuilders to crane operat- VICTORIA COMMUNITY ors, raising the 99-metre-tall towers, to electricians for the LEADERSHIP AWARDS underground power cables. Te project was designed and constructed with input from M. Dean: Te Victoria Community Leadership Awards local First Nations and communities and will bring almost are a celebration of the people who make greater Victoria $15 million of economic beneft to the region. Te 15 mega- a vibrant, healthy community. Since 2004, the awards have watts of clean, emission-free energy, commissioned under highlighted the hundreds of thousands of community volun- the standing ofer program, will support B.C.’s transition to a teer hours that build our community. low-carbon energy. Te event is a chance to show the region’s appreciation Te Moose Lake site was developed by Aeolis Wind of the dedication and contribution made by each of the Power, a Victoria-based renewable energy company employ- featured community leaders. With sponsorship from the ing residents for over 15 years, and the Vancouver ofce of Victoria Foundation, the 2019 awards are taking place on Boralex Inc., a Canadian renewable energy company. May 23. I want to congratulate all involved for reaching this mile- I’m very proud to recognize that Jane Devonshire, a res- stone and for the ongoing support of energy opportunities ident of Esquimalt-Metchosin, will be receiving an award that support communities and families in the South Peace. for healthy, safe environments. Jane loves our west coast environment, and she’s passionate about protecting the local SANCTUARIES FOR FARM ANIMALS AND ecosystem. Not only does she take action herself; she also WORK OF HUGO AND SARIEN SLABBERT inspires and supports others to take action too. Jane recog- nizes the urgency and threats of the climate crisis and works R. Glumac: It all started with Big Mama, a fearless pig to mobilize support for tangible change that will take care of that one day leapt from the back of a pickup truck, once our local environment as well as the global one. and for all proving that pigs cannot fy. Port Moody couple Another recipient from Esquimalt-Metchosin is 13-year- Hugo and Sarien Slabbert had a friend that owned an old Rebecca Wolf Gage, also winning in the healthy, safe animal sanctuary and needed help transporting the environments category. She has spent more than half her life injured pig from Saltspring Island to Langley. Sarien has as a tenacious advocate for our climate and recently hosted a background in project management and event planning the Victoria climate strike here on the front lawn. Inspired and a passion for animals, and she was able to help her by Greta Tunberg, Rebecca wants people to know that her friend coordinate the transportation. generation cares about the climate crisis. One month later the couple became aware of a baby calf I also want to especially mention Ruth Mojeed, who cre- that needed transportation to an animal sanctuary in Kelow- ated the inclusion conference. na. When no one was available over Christmas to transport I want to say congratulations to everyone who is the animal, they laid some straw down in the back of their deservedly recognized by the Victoria Leadership Awards. van, turned up the music and drove the calf up themselves. Tanks to all of them for all of their work and leadership Tere’s no SPCA for farm animals. Tere are only people across our region. with big hearts and a bit of land. Tere are about 16 animal sanctuaries across the province. Many are self-funded and don’t have a lot of time to coordinate getting animals to their Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9203 farms or to fnd ongoing, stable sources of food for these er’s twin. I’m proud to say she’s my friend. I thank her and animals when they get there. the Hub for all they do for youth. Tat’s where Hugo and Sarien came in. Tey have now started an organization called People Ensuring Animal Care Oral Questions Exists. Tey’re helping these sanctuaries fnd sustainable ways of doing their work — coordinating transportation, USE OF EMAIL AND MESSAGING BY fnding grants, fnding food and other logistics. Hugo and CITIZENS’ SERVICES MINISTER Sarien have found a way to take their skills and their passions and bring them together to make a diference. S. Bond: A year ago, the Minister of Citizens’ Services I want to thank Hugo and Sarien for all that they do. admitted to and apologized for using a personal email account for government business. On May 14, 2018, she said: DEB FISHER AND SUMMIT YOUTH CENTRE “I should not have used my personal email to contact staf, and I’ll be more diligent in the future.” D. Clovechok: I rise today to celebrate and honour both Could the minister tell the House today what steps she has an organization and an individual from Invermere: the Sum- taken since that time to fully comply with her FOI obliga- mit Youth Centre and Deb Fisher. tions? Te Summit Youth Centre has just recently had a dinner celebrating its 25th anniversary and also launched the Sum- Hon. J. Sims: What we have done on the government mit’s new focus on youth mental health. It’s an organization side is we have made sure that there is ongoing training for that has stood the test of time and invested in youth, provid- our staf in our minister’s ofces, for ministers as well as for ing a place where they can just hang out and have fun in a our public service. Tat training continues, and there is the safe learning environment, an environment that is bully-free, appropriate use policy for government business. drug-free, alcohol-free and led by marvellous staf dedicated to the well-being of the Columbia Valley’s youth. Te Sum- Mr. Speaker: Prince George–Valemount on a supplemen- mit provides our youth with learning and growing oppor- tal. tunities through the outstanding programs that they ofer. Each year the Summit recognizes an individual who has S. Bond: Tank you to the minister for that answer. Te gone above and beyond to inspire, support and love youth in question was about her specifc actions related to her com- their journey to adulthood. mitment to this House. Deb Fisher spent many years as one of the Aboriginal Te government guide to transitory records provides education support workers at David Tompson Secondary nearly a dozen examples of what are non-transitory records. School, which has seen graduation rates for Indigenous Tey include things like work schedules, assignments, infor- youth rise from 20 percent to over 90 percent. Additionally, mation about a decision, documentation of a policy matter, she has formally and informally fostered over 35 youth and instructions, advice, meeting minutes, agendas or useful has been an ally for many more as a foster parent, an inter- information that helps explain the history of a relationship, national student parent and a youth ally in every sense of decision or project. the word. Her compassion has been soul food for the many Can the minister confrm for the House that it is unac- youth struggling with issues and a guiding light for many, ceptable to delete any such records, even if it is on a private many more. email account, WhatsApp, BBM or a text message? Deb is a very humble person who will tell you without hesitation that it was her family that enabled her to do what Hon. J. Sims: We use the policies that exist, and all staf she has been able to do, and she’s grateful to her family and are provided training, including ministers, as to what is the her husband. Deb is also the president of the Columbia Val- appropriate policy. ley chapter of the Métis Nation and served as a team member of the Ktunaxa-Kinbasket residential school trauma team. J. Johal: Does the minister use WhatsApp messages? Deb and her mom are also passionate and regular volunteers at the local Tree Voices of Healing addiction and rehabilit- Hon. J. Sims: I do. ation centre for Indigenous men. Joining the celebration at the dinner was Canadian actor Mr. Speaker: Richmond-Queensborough on a supple- Tom Jackson. He said: “When I read about this, I knew I had mental. to be there. I have a history, in my younger days, that mirrors a lot of the young people served by the Summit. It created a J. Johal: Now, for nearly two years, the ofcial opposition shif in their lives, a cornerstone, a fortress that amounts to has requested texts and WhatsApp messages from both the one verb — love.” minister and all of her political staf. And for nearly two [2:05 p.m.] years, the response each and every time has been “no If love were a person, then that person would be Deb Fish- records.” Nothing related to work schedules, assignments, 9204 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 information about a decision, a policy matter, instructions, goshawk, and we’re ensuring that the forests of Vancouver advice. Absolutely nothing. Island are used better to support communities with our coast Does the minister use WhatsApp or text messages to com- forest sector revitalization plan, which will drive more logs municate government business with her ministerial staf? to domestic manufacturing and reduce the amount of waste so that pulp mills have better fbre supply. Hon. J. Sims: I do have a WhatsApp account. It’s on my Legislative Assembly phone, and I do use it to communicate Mr. Speaker: Te member for Saanich North and the with a group that I have created about some of the achieve- Islands on a supplemental. ments of government. I use it to communicate about my mom. We have a family grouping on that as well. A. Olsen: Te thoughtful and considered approach is to For those not familiar with WhatsApp, WhatsApp is quite continue cutting it, which doesn’t last very long. It only goes commonly used in the South Asian community to share per- until there’s nothing lef. Like I said, we are managing this sonal information. I do not have WhatsApp on my govern- resource to zero. Logging coastal old growth simply isn’t ment account. good for jobs in the long term, and that’s because it’s a fnite resource. Once they’re gone, they’re gone. At this rate, that PROTECTION OF OLD-GROWTH FORESTS will be much sooner than later. If we act now, we can successfully transition our coastal A. Olsen: British Columbia’s coastal old-growth forests forestry to a sustainable, second-growth industry. Tis are rare. Tese forests sustain unique and endangered eco- means using science-based methods to determine what systems and species and are of immense cultural value to forests to leave and which ones to harvest. All the evidence Indigenous peoples. Lef standing, old growth supports points to leaving high-productivity old growth intact. We entire ecotourism economies. Tey flter the water we drink. must log selectively to minimize environmental impacts, and Tey’re essential to salmon health and prevent landslides we need to invest in value-added manufacturing here on the and erosion. coast. Value-added jobs are more resilient to market factors Old growth is also a non-renewable resource, but on Van- and higher paying. It’s the best-case scenario for forest work- couver Island, it’s almost gone. Seventy-nine percent of the ers, for tourism operators and for the environment. original productive old growth has been logged, and 90 per- Today we called for a moratorium on logging in old- cent of the high-productivity valley bottoms are gone too. growth hot spots on Vancouver Island. We cannot aford to [2:10 p.m.] wait for the government to delay any longer. Te time to act Despite their rarity and ecological importance, we con- is now, for the beneft of coastal economies, communities tinue to actively log these forests. On the coast, 54 percent and the environment. of everything we log is old growth. We’re managing them To the Premier: will you institute a moratorium on log- to zero. ging the few intact productive old-growth forests on Van- BCTS, the government’s logging agency, just suspended couver Island? their auction of 109 hectares of old growth within metres of the Juan de Fuca provincial park due to public outrage. Tese Hon. D. Donaldson: We aren’t managing the old-growth auctions are happening all across the Island, and it cannot forests on Vancouver Island to zero. Tere are 500,000 hec- continue. tares of old-growth forest protected in parks and other pro- To the Premier, considering what is at stake, how does he tected areas on Vancouver Island. But I do acknowledge the justify the continued logging of coastal old growth? member’s point and those who are concerned about old- growth forest management. Old-growth forests sustain Hon. D. Donaldson: Tank you to the member for the diverse wildlife, regulate water fows and have an important question. Old-growth management is important in B.C. impact on the nutrient cycling. Tat’s because we value old-growth forests for their contri- We also know that old-growth forests are an important bution to biodiversity and for the way old-growth forests part of communities’ economic future, as well as workers’ support forestry workers and communities on Vancouver in the forest industry. We want to get a better understand- Island, along the coast and across B.C. ing of that by engaging with the public, First Nations and We, therefore, must take a thoughtful and considered communities — the 45 First Nations on Vancouver Island approach to old-growth management on Vancouver Island. who have an interest in the forests surrounding those com- We’ll be engaging soon on an old-growth plan with com- munities. munities and First Nations on Vancouver Island. In the We’ll be doing that in a thoughtful and measured meantime, we’re taking steps, as the member mentioned, to approach very soon, and that’s the way we’re going to get recognize the unique and endangered ecosystems on Van- to better management of old-growth forests on Vancouver couver Island. Island. We set aside 70,000 hectares on Vancouver Island and the coast for the protection of marbled murrelet and northern Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9205

ALLEGATIONS REGARDING Hon. D. Eby: I’ve taken this matter on notice. COMMUNICATION PRACTICES OF CITIZENS’ SERVICES MINISTER P. Milobar: We know that the minister has a history of breaking the rules. It appears that in the afermath of the M. Polak: Te opposition was copied on a letter that has previous embarrassment, she went to even greater lengths to been received by the Attorney General for B.C., a letter from intentionally circumvent the laws and the system that she is Donald Sorochan, QC, which contains serious allegations sworn to uphold. against the Minister of Citizens’ Services. It’s alleged: “I was repeatedly told by the minister’s seni- [2:15 p.m.] or ministerial assistant to never admit to the use of per- Included in the allegations are claims that the minister sonal email for ministerial business, as we have to protect uses iMessage, WhatsApp and her personal email and that the minister.” “she instructed her staf to only communicate using these To the Premier, has the Premier or his ofce investigated methods in order to avoid her communication being cap- these allegations? tured by FOIPPA law.” Is the Premier aware of the allegations contained in this Hon. D. Eby: I’ve taken this question on notice. letter? Mr. Speaker: Member, just a reminder, of course, that Hon. D. Eby: I advise the House that I have not seen the when the minister takes it on notice, your second question letter yet. I’ll go back to my ofce afer question period, and would be something diferent. I’ll take the question on notice right now. P. Milobar: Tank you, Mr. Speaker. Point taken. Mr. Speaker: Te House Leader for the Ofcial Opposi- Te letter does allege behaviour of the minister that is tion on a supplemental. deliberate, systemic and purposeful. In fact, the Premier should have been made aware, because the letter does say M. Polak: Tese are serious allegations being made by that the assistant deputy minister of cabinet operations and Kate Gillie, a former staf member to the Minister of Cit- deputy cabinet secretary had been, indeed, told well in izens’ Services from January 8 to February 22, 2019. She advance of this letter. alleges that the minister “explained to me that she only used her ministerial phone or email for routine tasks or conver- Mr. Speaker: Member, again, if we could go down a dif- sations, because ‘I have to have something to show them.’ ferent path entirely…. I think we’re on the same line of Te ‘them’ she referred to were those members of the public, questioning. opposition or media who were making FOI requests for her communication.” P. Milobar: Mr. Speaker, I’m curious if the minister’s When was the Premier or his ofce made aware of these ofce did contact the Privacy Commissioner to investigate allegations? the allegations from previous and, if so, when the request was made. Hon. D. Eby: As I advised the member, I haven’t seen the letter. It sounds like serious allegations. Mr. Speaker: Again, same topic but diferent question. I certainly think it would be a good idea to have a look at Attorney. the letter and see what’s in there, as opposed to having the member, I guess, read sections of the letter, possibly. It’s not Hon. D. Eby: I have taken this on notice, because I haven’t clear to me. I’ll take the matter on notice. seen the letter.

Mr. Speaker: Te House Leader for the Ofcial Opposi- M. de Jong: Whilst I appreciate the approach the Attorney tion on a second supplemental. wishes to take, and perhaps a prudent approach, the question in this instance is for the Premier. M. Polak: Just to be clear for this House, according to [2:20 p.m.] the letter that we were copied on, the staf member already Will he confrm that his ofce, via the cabinet secretariat, raised these concerns with the Premier’s ofce in the past. was made aware of these and other serious allegations con- Ms. Gillie further alleges that “on more than one occasion, cerning the conduct of the Minister of Citizens’ Services over the minister’s senior ministerial assistant called to explain to two months ago, and will he advise the House what steps he me that I was not to communicate with the minister or her took to initiate an investigation? ministry staf via their government emails, unless I had frst checked via text or phone call.” Hon. J. Horgan: Tere is a letter being discussed by the Am I to understand that the Premier was not made aware opposition which I have not seen. I’m not aware of any of these issues that were raised to his ofce previously? investigation underway. Again, I’d like to think that the 9206 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 people on the other side would take, “We’ll get back to you,” Wood facility in her community was obviously devastating as an answer, but apparently not. news for the 150 workers there and those that depend on it. I will correct the member on some of these points. Tis is Mr. Speaker: Te member for Abbotsford West on a sup- not a surprise. Te member for Nechako Lakes headed up an plemental. interim timber supply review fve or six years ago that poin- ted quite clearly to a lack of fbre — too much volume, not M. de Jong: Tat is somewhat helpful. Given the minister’s enough value. Tose are the types of discussions we’re having record, which the House is aware of, given the serious nature right now with industry leaders, with community leaders, of the allegations contained in the letter from the lawyer Sor- with workers and with First Nations right across the Peace. ochan and given the fact that his ofce has apparently had Company afer company has said: “Tis is the appropriate the information contained in that letter for over two months, way to go. Let’s all sit down together, timber supply area by this is my question to the Premier. timber supply area, and come up with solutions for a long- I understand he will want to familiarize himself, or re- term fx to our forest industry.” familiarize himself, with the contents of the letter. Will he I appreciate that the member is now going to get up and undertake to come back before the House tomorrow and say that it’s all someone else’s fault. Tis is something that indicate whether or not, in these circumstances, given the has been going on for generations. We are now at a critical history, given the record and given the nature of the allega- point in the sector. Members know that, and I hope that tions, he believes this minister can continue to serve in the they will join with us and work to make sure we don’t see executive council? issues like this replicated in other communities right across the province. Hon. J. Horgan: Given the record of the people on that Te time to sit and work together is now. Te time to be side of the House when it came to triple delete, when it critical of the past — the distant past and the recent past — came to criminal charges about the use of technology in is not helpful to anybody. this building, I’ll take my own counsel. Rather than take the word of the members on the other side, I’ll consult C. Oakes: Last week the Premier actually stood in this with the Attorney. We’ll take a look at the information, and House and said that people are excited about the changes we’ll proceed from there. that the government is making in forest policy. I can tell the Premier today that people in my community who’ve just lost CLOSING OF QUESNEL MILL their jobs are not really excited. AND GOVERNMENT POLICIES [2:25 p.m.] ON FOREST INDUSTRY Rather than work with the forest sector, the Premier takes a “Victoria knows best” approach that has made us the C. Oakes: Mr. Speaker 150 family-supporting forestry highest-cost producers in North America. His policies mean jobs were lost in my community last Friday with the that instead of shipping lumber, we are shipping jobs to the announcement of the closure of Tolko mills. Tis closure will United States. also have a signifcant impact on contractors and small busi- Will the Premier immediately press pause on his dam- nesses in our community. We have been raising concerns aging policies and come to Quesnel? being brought forward by industry and by experts on the challenges that industry is seeing with the growing num- Hon. J. Horgan: Again, to say that the situation in the ber of changes in the policy, the legislative changes and the forest industry arrived the other day is as obtuse as I think administrative changes in the forest policies being brought you can possibly be on a subject this important. Te devasta- forward by this government. tion of the mountain pine beetle. Successive fre seasons that Te Premier and this government have dismissed these are the worst in our history. How can you sit there and say concerns, and the government has mocked and even laughed this is someone else’s problem? It is our problem. It’s a prob- at us and at the legitimate concerns that we’ve been bringing lem for the people of B.C. forward. Tis condescending approach by the government I have reached out to industry leaders, to workers, to Indi- is disrespectful to the workers, to the contractors and to the genous leaders, to community representatives. Tey have small businesses in my community. agreed that the best way forward is to sit down, timber sup- Will the Premier come to Quesnel and tell my community ply area by timber supply area. how he intends to help the contractors, small businesses and Te House Leader for the opposition would prefer to score workers impacted by the closure of Tolko? political points. It will not help the people in Quesnel. It will not help the people in other forest-dependent communit- Hon. J. Horgan: I thank the member for her question. I ies. What will help is a Legislature that is unanimous in our know she’s as concerned about her community as anyone in resolve to make sure that we can take our dwindling fbre this House. Te sad news of the Tolko closure of the Quest basket and add more value to it to create more jobs in the long term. Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9207

S. Tomson: Te Premier talks about consultation. Let’s On Friday, we had the devastating news — 240 workers, just look at the words of his Forests Minister. On Tursday, afecting families, contractors, businesses in two communi- he said: “I’m sorry if the member doesn’t like my reaction to ties in the province. the questions, but it’s hard to keep a straight face.” His words. Te question, again, to the Premier is: will he admit his Tat’s the attitude by the Premier. Tat’s the attitude by the blunder, and will he press pause on his ill-advised policies Minister of Forests — to be dismissive and condescending of that continue to add to the uncertainty in the forest sector? the concerns raised by the industry and communities. Will he press pause on those initiatives and undertake prop- Te minister stood and read a letter from Tolko that said er consultation with the industry? they were begging for consultation with the government, that they wanted to work with government. But what he Hon. D. Donaldson: Well, it’s important to remember didn’t say was that letter was written before he blindsided that the problems facing Tolko are not new. Te mountain the industry with Bill 22 with no consultation. Tis is adding pine beetle epidemic, the 2017 wildfre season and weak- continued uncertainty, greater uncertainty for the industries. ening lumber markets have all contributed to the fbre It’s piling on the uncertainty. As I said, with no consultation, shortage. the very next day, 240 workers lost their jobs. Now, as far as pressing pause goes, the member should My question to the Premier is: will he show some respect know well about that. Back when he was Forests Minister, today, listen to the concerns from the industry and the com- there was the mid-term timber supply review. It came out in munities and press pause, just as he did with the caribou fle? 2012. It forewarned of these kinds of mill closures due to a lack of fbre, and instead of doing something, they pressed Hon. D. Donaldson: First of, I just want to acknowledge pause and did nothing. that our government knows how difcult the closure of a sawmill is for people in communities. I’ve lived through it in WAGES FOR COMMUNITY the community I represent and the communities all the way SOCIAL SERVICES WORKERS from Prince Rupert up to Hazelton when mills shut down. We’re working with a transition team with workers on that J. Martin: Tis Premier and this government have been in right now. the process of blatantly discriminating against 17,000 social I want to correct the member. Te letter that we received services workers. Max is one of these workers, and he writes: from Tolko in support of the Interior TSA process came “I work for a non-union agency out of choice. Being out afer the Premier wrote letters to major industry players excluded from a fair wage redress because I don’t belong to to try to take a collaborative approach. Tat’s the approach some union seems to me to be a glaring bias.” we’re taking. It’s not isolated. Tere are many companies that Will the Premier stand up and explain to Max, and the want to work with us as we work with workers, with com- thousands of workers like him, why he is being discrimin- munities and with First Nations. ated against? Robert Novak from Dunkley Lumber Ltd. wrote, in response to our Interior TSA initiative, to say: “We want to Hon. S. Simpson: As I’ve said previously to this, we’re frst take this opportunity to indicate to you that Dunkley working with the sector. I’m pleased that we met with a wide Lumber is and will continue to be part of the concepts and range of the umbrella organizations that represent most of required work that you have outlined. We also hope that the contracted social service groups. We met on Friday. We government sees Dunkley as a willing forest company parti- had discussions about an array of issues that impact this sec- cipant in the work that lies ahead.” Tat’s the kind of process tor going back many, many years, including issues around we’re starting. recruitment and retention. We do have a plan moving for- ward, working in collaboration with the sector to make sure Mr. Speaker: Te member for Kelowna-Mission on a sup- we’re delivering the best services possible to the people who plemental. are supported by those agencies.

S. Tomson: Well, the letter went out; the industry Mr. Speaker: Te member for Chilliwack on a supple- responded. But the important point that is missing and that mental. the minister is not saying is the fact that that letter and responses came before the minister tabled Bill 22 without J. Martin: Max continues: “How on earth can you allow any consultation with the industry, blindsiding the industry. this? I expect my government to fght for the rights of all What have we seen in terms of the response? Just as was people and not reward their friends.” pointed out, the Premier dismisses those concerns, calling Can the Premier or can the minister tell me and tell Max them whiners, anybody who raises concerns about it, some- why the new discrimination party is treating them like a body who just wants to “take a pop at the government.” second-class citizen? Tose are his words. [2:30 p.m.] Hon. S. Simpson: I’m looking forward to the work we’re 9208 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

going to do over the coming weeks and months as we for- workers had their wages cut and thousands of workers lost mulate a plan that ensures the best possible services for the their jobs. Hon. Speaker, nobody who understands that side’s people who are supported by contracted social services. I’m performance when it comes to labour relations and human looking forward to those conversations. resources would have one moment’s time for the phony non- sense coming out of that side. T. Shypitka: Te Cranbrook Society for Community Living has been around since 1956 and faithfully gives the [End of question period.] support and skills needed to vulnerable people to live act- ive, meaningful, independent lives. Tis group enjoys a Orders of the Day blend of both unionized and non-union people — about 160, I believe. Hon. M. Farnworth: In this chamber, I call second read- Brandon Arnett, the executive director, writes to say that ing of Bill 32, Protected Areas of B.C. Amendment Act (No. the NDP government’s decision harmed both the workers 2). In Committee A, the Douglas Fir Room, I call committee being discriminated against and the families they serve. stage on Bill 11, Civil Forfeiture Amendment Act. In the Brendan has a question for the Premier, which I will quote Birch Room, Committee C, I call continued debate on the directly. “How do we tell a single mom struggling to make estimates of the Ministry of Energy and Mines. ends meet that she won’t be receiving the same wage increase her colleagues will be receiving, all the while expecting her [R. Chouhan in the chair.] to do the exact same job?” Second Reading of Bills Hon. S. Simpson: We’re looking forward to the work that we’re doing over the coming months with those organiza- BILL 32 — PROTECTED AREAS OF tions in the CEO Network, in the Federation of Community BRITISH COLUMBIA Social Services, among the Aboriginal friendship centres, AMENDMENT ACT (No. 2), 2019 with PARCA, with Board Voice. All of these are umbrella organizations that support the work of many agencies. Hon. G. Heyman: Mr. Speaker, I move that this bill be [2:35 p.m.] read a second time now. We have had a very positive discussion on Friday. I’m Te proposed amendment to the Protected Areas of Brit- looking forward to how we move forward to deal with pro- ish Columbia Act will remove approximately two hectares curement, to deal with contracts, to deal with policy advice, from Loon Lake Park to enable the Tompson-Nicola to deal with an array of issues that have been ignored for a regional district to apply to build a new community fre hall very long time. We’re going to move it forward. I’m feeling on the site and to accept two segments of road from the park. positive about that. Tat member should feel positive too. Loon Lake Park is an 8.74-hectare class A park comprised of two separate lots, 7548 and…. Mr. Speaker: Te member for Kootenay East on a supple- mental. Interjections.

T. Shypitka: Well, the people in my riding and people Deputy Speaker: Minister, can you hold, please? from the Cranbrook Society for Community Living aren’t Members, if you don’t have House business, maybe you feeling very optimistic right now. Te workers and families can be quiet. supported by Community Living deserve to hear an actual Te minister continues. answer from the Premier — that was the question — to Brandon’s question. Hon. G. Heyman: Loon Lake Park is comprised of two Tis is what else he wrote: “Is this all a ploy to drive non- separate lots, 7548 and 7547, but all park facilities were union employees towards unions? Tis government is mak- removed in 2002, and the park was closed due to a steady ing this decision in bad faith with ill intentions and in a fash- decline in park visitation. Te entire park was damaged to ion of discrimination.” It appears that the new discrimina- varying degrees during the 2017 Elephant Hill wildfre. It tion party is at it again. also destroyed the Loon Lake community’s fre hall. Te Te question is to the Premier. Will the Premier stop his previous fre hall location is not considered adequate due discrimination and hiding behind other ministers and to insurance requirements for maximum response distance provide equal pay for equal work to those that assist our from the most populous area of the community. society’s most vulnerable? [2:40 p.m.] Te amendment will remove the land on the north side Hon. S. Simpson: Tose workers who are feeling positive of Loon Lake Road and 7547, and the portion of Loon Lake are those ones who now won’t face the experience that they Road traversing 7547 will also be removed to provide a more had under the previous government, where thousands of Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9209 defnable boundary. A short segment of Loon Lake Road and opments; Karen Stark; Jack and Irene Giesbrecht; Canadian lot 7548 will also be removed from the park. National; Enbridge; Clinton and District Community Forest Te Tompson-Nicola regional district carried out public of B.C.; Ashcrof and District Lions Club, who made two consultation respecting the proposed boundary change to donations; Steve Pecchia; Integris Credit Union in Clinton; the park, and there is strong local community support for PaintNite; Oliver fre department; Ted and Valerie Mark; removing the land from the park to enable the construction Patrick Devlin; Vaughn and Marny Kenney; Laurel and Med of the fre hall. Te local regional district will work with Eldridge; Cache Creek volunteer fre department; Red Cross; local First Nations to complete a cultural and archaeological Royal Bank of Canada. assessment of the grounds before development. [2:45 p.m.] Tis amendment will assist in providing a new fre hall, for Fraserway RV deserves special mention because they a community in need of one, in a timely manner. donated $275,000 towards this project. Tis is a company that does not live near Loon Lake, and they were donating J. Tegart: It’s with great pleasure that I rise in the House to dollars from every RV sold in B.C. — 10 percent of retail speak in favour of Bill 32, Protected Areas of British Colum- parts, 10 percent of rental bookings and $750 from every bia Amendment Act (No. 2), 2019. RV sold in each of their seven dealerships. Tey ofered Te 2017 Elephant Hill fre destroyed the Loon Lake fre $1,000 credit on an Adventurer Group cash card for dis- department and a critical piece of infrastructure for the placed residents purchasing an RV, and they matched small community, as it was the community’s only fre hall. donations, dollar for dollar, by 800 employees. Mr. James Te fre covered over 191,000 hectares and destroyed land- Epp presented this news of a signifcant donation to the scapes, livelihoods, homes, businesses and the entire Boston Loon Lake fre department. Flats Mobile Home Park. I would like to acknowledge…. You know, when we’re in Te Tompson-Nicola regional district has been working times of trouble, people step forward, and the Loon Lake closely with the community of Loon Lake and myself to people are most appreciative. Te replacement of the fre hall secure land for the new building for the Loon Lake fre is an important step in the rebuilding and recovering of that department. In June of 2018, I wrote a letter to the Minister community. of Environment, outlining the challenges that the Loon Lake I would like to personally thank the minister and also say community was facing, trying to relocate their fre hall to a that I am pleased to support Bill 32, Protected Areas of Brit- location more central for the population of the community. ish Columbia Amendment Act (No. 2), 2019. I look forward Tis location was part of a closed provincial park that had to participating in the committee stage. not been used for a number of years. I asked the minister to assist in expediting the process to Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the minister enable the community to get shovels in the ground. I want to to close the debate. recognize the work of this minister and his staf for bringing this bill to the foor of the House, in this spring session, to Hon. G. Heyman: I’dlike to thank the member for Fraser- ensure that the community of Loon Lake has an opportunity Nicola for her comments as well as for her very important to move forward with this build. Tis bill adjusts the descrip- advocacy for her constituents in the community of Loon tion of Loon Lake Park within the Protected Areas of British Lake, for working with our ministry staf to achieve this Columbia Act by removing land from the park for the pur- sensible result. I also want to thank her for recognizing the pose of providing a viable space for the construction of the volunteers, the people who came together in the community new community fre hall. to ofer support, fnances and resources to rebuild the fre As you can imagine, the community was devastated by the hall, and for recognizing the important work of all frefght- wildfre. Local volunteer frefghters stayed behind during ers, including volunteer frefghters, in protecting and caring the evacuation to protect as many structures as they could. about communities. Many homes and cabins were burnt to the ground, along We don’t make changes to provincial parks lightly in Brit- with their own fre hall. ish Columbia, but in this case, it makes sense, and there is no Since the fre, support for this small rural fre department compromise to ecological or conservation values. Te com- has come from across the province. I would like to mention munity, as we’ve all pointed out, is strongly supportive. some of the people and organizations that have donated With that, I move second reading. $1,000 or more to the project. I ask your forgiveness for tak- ing time for the long list, but I think it’s really important that Motion approved. people get recognized. Te following is a list of those who donated $1,000 or Hon. G. Heyman: I move that the bill be referred to a more towards this project: the Rotary Club of Kamloops; Committee of the Whole House to be considered at the next Michael and Marjorie Milaney; Elizabeth Harrison; the sitting of the House afer today. Lakeside Resort; Interior Savings, Ashcrof; Country Lum- ber; Muni-City Services; Anthony McGill; Pan-Cam Devel- Bill 32, Protected Areas of British Columbia Amendment 9210 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

Act (No. 2), 2019, read a second time and referred to a observer — plays a signifcant role in informing some of Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the these changes. Specifcally, several of the proposed changes next sitting of the House afer today. in this bill align with the unanimous or majority recom- mendations from the B.C. Law Institute. It is important to Hon. H. Bains: I call second reading of Bill 8. know that the B.C. Law Institute did extensive public con- sultation before fnalizing its report, which provided workers BILL 8 — EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS and employers, stakeholders and others an opportunity to AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 provide their views on how to modernize the Employment Standards Act. Hon. H. Bains: I move that Bill 8 be read a second time As well, during March of this year, we invited the public now. to give their feedback on the area we’re discussing in Bill 8 Bill 8 is a set of very, very important changes for British today, as well as on hours of work and overtime and on fair- Columbians and to British Columbia’s Employment Stand- ness for terminated workers. We received over 1,200 submis- ards Act. For those who would be wondering what the sions and took this input into account when fnalizing the Employment Standards Act is, the Employment Standards amendments to Bill 8. Te input from public engagement Act is the law that sets minimum standards and conditions will also be considered as we look to make potential further of employment for most workers in the province. Workers future amendments to the act. and employers in the province rely on employment stand- I would now like to speak about some of the specifc ards to protect their rights and to refect their changing changes to be made in Bill 8. Te amendments we are pro- needs, to ensure workplaces remain fair and efcient. posing fall into four categories, four areas of improving the For far too long, the province’s Employment Standards employment standards in British Columbia. Act had not changed, even as other jurisdictions updated Te frst of the priority areas is to raise the working age for their standards to better protect workers and even as the children and better protect them from dangerous work. For working environment had changed dramatically through too long, B.C. has lagged behind the rest of Canada when it globalization and technology. Fifeen years have gone by comes to protecting children in workplaces. Changes made without signifcant changes to the Employment Standards in 2003 have allowed children as young as 12 to do virtu- Act in B.C., and 25 years without a signifcant review. ally any kind of work, including in dangerous sectors like With Bill 8, our government is taking action to make construction. As a result, there have been many life-altering changes that are overdue — changes that will better protect injuries in workers 14 years old or younger. children and youth from dangerous work, make it easier for I move adjournment of debate and reserve my right to workers to get help when they feel their rights have been speak again. violated, provide more job protection to people dealing with difcult personal circumstances and ensure that employees Hon. H. Bains moved adjournment of debate. are paid the wages they are owed and that employers and others that violate the law don’t have an unfair economic Motion approved. advantage over good employers. [2:50 p.m.] Report and Tird Reading of Bills We’re making these priority changes as a signifcant step towards fulflling my mandate, as Minister of Labour, to BILL 11 — CIVIL FORFEITURE make sure that B.C.’s employment standards are applied AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 evenly and enforce and refect the evolving needs of our workplaces. Bill 11, Civil Forfeiture Amendment Act, 2019, reported Working people will be better protected and supported complete without amendment, read a third time and through these proposed amendments to the B.C. Employ- passed. ment Standards Act. Why? I believe that working people are the lifeblood of this province, yet we see working people Hon. M. Farnworth: I apologize to my colleagues for the struggling, because our employment standards do not pro- interruption. Tere may be one more yet to come. tect them. In this House, I call continued debate on Bill 8. In the In developing these amendments, we have considered Douglas Fir Room, Section A, I call committee stage on Bill recommendations from several groups, including the B.C. 7. Law Institute, the B.C. Employment Standards Coalition and [2:55 p.m.] the B.C. Federation of Labour, along with input from work- ers, employers, the public and academics. Te B.C. Law Institute’s independent and comprehensive review — which was funded in part, I would tell you, by the province and included the Ministry of Labour as an Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9211

Second Reading of Bills making sure our kids are not employed in work that is unsafe for young persons. BILL 8 — EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS Children are our future, and we need to give young people AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 the time to develop and mature before joining the broader (continued) workforce. Above all, we want to keep them safe. Everyone wants our children to be safe and healthy, and we know that Hon. H. Bains: I was just talking about protecting our children can ofen provide helpful age-appropriate support children from dangerous work — their health and safety at for family businesses, including family farms, as I said earli- workplaces. I was talking about changes made in 2003 that er. Te changes we are making with Bill 8 are about keeping allowed children as young as 12 to go and work any occu- our children safe while ensuring that young people can con- pation in British Columbia. Many of them have life-altering tinue to help out in family businesses. injuries as a result of that. As I indicated earlier, the details for new child employ- Tis is not just anecdotal numbers or a speech. WCB data ment law will be set out in regulations. Before these regu- confrms that over $5 million was paid to children under lations are established, government will consult broadly and 15 who worked and were injured. Tose were the numbers will want to engage extensively with stakeholders for their paid in injury claims: $5.2 million over a ten-year period. It input on how we can work together to better protect children clearly shows that our children were getting hurt in work- in diverse workplaces. places. Workplace data also shows that every year between Te second priority is the area that we are addressing at 2007 and 2017, workers were being injured, and that is this time to provide more job protection to people dealing simply unacceptable. with difcult personal circumstances. Bill 8 proposes two Tese proposed amendments will better protect our chil- new job-protected leaves that will allow people to take time dren by raising the age that a child may work without an away from work to deal with personal hardship without hav- employment standards branch permit from 12 to 16, allow- ing to worry about losing their job. ing an exception for 14- and 15-year-olds to do light work [3:00 p.m.] that is safe for their health and development, prohibiting Te frst new leave is for victims of domestic violence. children under 16 from doing dangerous work. Workers who have experienced or are the parent of a child What we heard from people and what we learned from who has experienced domestic violence will be able to take B.C. Law Institute recommendations was that 14- and unpaid, job-protected leave. Tis change allows workers 15-year-olds want to be able to participate in the workforce. to take up to 15 consecutive weeks and up to ten non- Te proposed amendments will allow 14- and 15-year-olds consecutive days for things like therapy sessions, medical to do certain forms of light work, with the consent of a par- appointments, fnding a new home or a new school for ent or guardian, like stocking shelves in a convenience store, their children. working their family farm while helping their parents. Oth- B.C. will now join most other provinces in bringing in this er forms of work will require a permit from the director for important domestic violence leave to better support women, anyone under the age of 16. Defning exactly what should be children and all workers who have been impacted by domes- considered light work will be laid out in the regulations fol- tic violence. lowing a transparent consultation process. Te second leave is critical care leave. Workers who need Perhaps more importantly, young people under 16 will be to care for a critically ill family member will be able to take prohibited from working in dangerous industries like min- a job-protected leave while using federal employment insur- ing, forestry, pulp mills, heavy construction. Dangerous ance benefts. Te federal government introduced this pro- work is anything that is likely to endanger a child’s health, tection in December 2017, and B.C. needs to align the act to safety or morals — for instance, working on a construction provide corresponding job protection. site or in a factory with heavy machinery. Setting out exactly Te leave allows workers to take up to 36 weeks to care for what should be considered dangerous work will come at the a critically ill child under 19 and up to 16 weeks to care for regulation stage. Tese changes to our employment stand- a critically ill adult family member. People shouldn’t have to ards for children will bring B.C. into alignment with interna- choose between their job and taking care of their family dur- tional child employment standards. ing times of personal difculties. We must balance the needs I must remind the House here that when those laws were of employers with the needs of employees in these difcult changed in 2003, allowing a 12-year-old to work in any work personal situations. in B.C., we were cited by the International Labour Organiz- Te third priority is to ensure employees are paid the ation of the United Nations that that is not in line with their wages they are owed and that employers and others that convention. Tat is not in alignment with the international violate the law don’t have an unfair economic advantage that law about our children and workplaces. But the government makes for an uneven competitive playing feld. Everyone of the day ignored all of that, and like I said, children contin- deserves to be paid wages that they have rightfully earned. ued to get hurt. Now we will put an end to B.C.’s reputation Whether you are a server relying on tips or you haven’t been as the only province without meaningful legal restrictions by paid your full wage by your employer, the proposed amend- 9212 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 ments aim to ensure all workers are able to recover what they should not impact many unionized workplaces. For those are owed. few that it may impact, this change will not afect collect- Bill 8 will add new provisions that would regulate tips and ive agreements that are in force when the changes come gratuities. Employers will be prohibited from withholding into efect, allowing employers and unions time to align tips or other gratuities from workers, deducting an amount their agreements with the new minimum standards. Bill 8 from them or requiring them to turn them over to the will permit employers and unions to continue operating employer. Tip pooling will be allowed, but employers will under the provision of current collective agreements until not be allowed to share in the tip pool unless they perform an agreement expires and a new or renewed agreement the same work as other workers. comes into efect. Tese changes are based on the tip regulation system in Another change is a new requirement for employers Ontario, which the B.C. Law Institute report recommended to provide employees with information about their rights for British Columbia. We have been hearing about unfair under the Employment Standards Act. Employers will be practices around tips for years, and it’s time for that to stop. responsible for providing the information to workers they Bill 8 will also extend the wage recovery period under the employ, since they have direct knowledge of and access to Employment Standards Act. Workers who are owed wages their employees. Tis requirement is intended to protect by a current or former employer will be able to recover up workers by ensuring that they have information about to 12 months of back pay, up from the current six months. their employment standards entitlement. It will also sup- Te 12-month recovery period will apply to complaints cur- port compliance by ensuring that the employers are famil- rently before the employment standards branch if a determ- iar with the requirements of the act and the obligations ination has yet to be made. Te federal jurisdiction, along they have to workers. with New Brunswick, Northwest Territories, Prince Edward Another improvement is that Bill 8 will require temporary Island, Quebec and Saskatchewan, has a 12-month wage help agencies to be licensed. Temporary help agencies recovery period already. employ people to assign them to perform work on a tem- Te proposed legislation also gives the director of em- porary basis for clients of the agency. With the exception of ployment standards the discretion to extend the recovery farm labour contractors, temporary help agencies are cur- period to 24 months in circumstances to be prescribed by rently not required to be licensed. the regulations. For example, the ministry is considering My ministry has reviewed research from other jurisdic- circumstances where infractions are seen to be wilful or tions that shows that employees of temporary help agencies severe. As a consequence to the extended wage recovery are ofen in vulnerable and precarious work situations that period, Bill 8 will change the record retention period from warrant special attention. Te proposal to extend a licensing two years to four years to ensure that the payrolls and oth- requirement to temporary help agencies will assist the er records are available if there is a complaint or investiga- employment standards branch in addressing compliance tion about unpaid wages. issues in a sector where vulnerable workers are ofen Trough Bill 8, government is also strengthening several employed and potentially exploited. other provisions within the act to ensure that the workers To further support the recovery of unpaid wages to work- recover as many wages and other amounts owing to them ers, Bill 8 will restore corporate ofcers’ and directors’ liab- as possible. Signifcantly, we are restoring the Employment ility for unpaid wages in bankruptcy situations, similar to Standards Act as a foor for new and renewed collective what existed prior to 2002. No other Canadian jurisdiction agreements. has a bankruptcy exception for directors’ and ofcers’ liabil- In some areas, variations from the standards in the act will ity for unpaid wages. be permitted but only if the collective agreement provisions Another change in Bill 8 adopted the recommendation meet or exceed the requirement in the corresponding pro- made in the B.C. Law Institute to provide some fexibility in visions of the act. Tese changes for collective agreements the issuance of mandatory penalties imposed for non-com- ensure that the unionized workers have the same rights and pliance with the act. Tis amendment will provide author- standards as other workers, that minimum employment ity for the director of the employment standards to waive a standards cannot be negotiated away and that there is a level monetary penalty in certain circumstances. Currently, mon- playing feld. etary penalties are mandatory, and there’s no authority for Tere were complaints where some employers and some the director to waive a penalty. unions were trying to go around the minimum standards Te circumstances in which a director may waive a pen- and negotiate inferior agreements, and that put their com- alty will include situations like, for example: a person pays petitive employers at a disadvantage. Not only that; it cheats all wages owed to the employees, as determined by the dir- the workers out of the rightful wages that they are owed ector; the contravention was not deliberate or due to negli- under the act. gence; the person had a good basis for contesting the issue [3:05 p.m.] that refected an arguable interpretation of the legislation or Many collective agreements already, on the other hand, a valid dispute of the facts; or other situations to be pre- meet or exceed the standards of the act, so this change scribed by regulations. Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9213

Te amendment addresses employers’ concern about the amendments in Bill 8 but not other important issues that infexibility of the existing system and recognizes that while they also believe should be addressed. For years, we have mandatory penalties are an important incentive to support been hearing from workers and employers that the amend- compliance with the Employment Standards Act, in some ments being proposed in Bill 8 are priority items that instances it is fair or appropriate to waive the penalty. urgently need to be addressed. Tese are areas that will have A small but important change will be to replace the exist- an immediate impact on the well-being of workers across ing occupational title of “domestic,” which is an outdated a wide range of industries. Further, as I have indicated, the and potentially ofensive term, with the more contemporary B.C. Law Institute’s extensive review of the act recommended title “domestic worker.” Te defnition of “domestic worker” many of the changes being proposed. will repeal the existing requirement that domestic workers We know, though, that there are many areas of concern must live at the employer’s residence. Tis is in response to that people still want us to change. I can advise that further the live-in requirement being abolished under the caregiver review of the Employment Standards Act is underway to streams of the federal temporary foreign worker program. look at all the B.C. Law Institute recommendations, as well as Te live-in requirement was contributing greatly to the feedback from stakeholders and input from our recent pub- potential for abuse and exploitation of temporary foreign lic engagement. workers by increasing their dependency on employers. By I would like to thank the B.C. Law Institute for their repealing the requirement to live at the employer’s residence, detailed review and recommendations that have guided and domestic workers will receive the full protection of the act, continue to guide our work on updating the act. Te B.C. whether or not they reside with their employer. Employment Standards Coalition and the B.C. Federation of Finally, the fourth and the last priority area that we are Labour also deserve recognition for their valuable input on recommending and proposing through this bill, but cer- this work. And I would like to thank all workers, employers tainly not the least, is to modernize the employment stand- and members of the public who have taken the time to give ards branch to make it easier for both workers and employ- their input as well. Teir voices have been heard, and we are ers to access the services they need. Te employment stand- working to make life better for them. ards branch helps workers and employers understand B.C.’s As I said, working people are the lifeblood of this prov- employment laws and ensures that those laws are followed. ince. When we strengthen protection for workers, we [3:10 p.m.] strengthen our economy. Our government is taking steps to For too long, B.C.’s workers have not received the level of make life better for people, and this includes putting in place support they deserve, facing barriers accessing justice when laws that will provide better protection and support. I’m tre- they have been mistreated by an employer, knowing what mendously proud to be leading Bill 8. It is important to their rights are or how to get help. note that these proposed changes are aimed at ensuring that We’re improving how the branch delivers these services, workers’ rights are respected and are fair to the vast majority which all clients count on, by eliminating the self-help kit to of employers who abide by the law. As well, they are aimed at make the complaint process more accessible and to facilitate levelling the playing feld for good employers so that unscru- a worker’s access to justice; requiring a preliminary review, pulous employers don’t gain an unfair advantage. followed by an investigation of all complaints accepted by I just want to re-emphasize this point. Tese changes not the branch; improving on the current process of forgoing only are to provide better protection for the working people investigation in favour of speedy resolutions; and ensuring in this province. I’m talking about 70 to 74 percent of the fairness and transparency for employers and workers by workers in this province, most of them very, very vulnerable. providing them the opportunity to respond to a written Tey have no protection of a union — no other protection. report on an investigation of all complaints before a fnal Many of them don’t even know what their rights are and how decision is made. Te director of employment standards may to get those rights protected. But at the same time, the vast also conduct a broader investigation of a workplace if a com- majority of the employers who abide by the law pay their plaint shows a systemic problem. workers according to the law and respect their health and Tese amendments to improve the complaints and invest- safety. We want to protect them as well. igation process at the employment standards branch, along [3:15 p.m.] with other operational improvements, will be supported by a We want to be on their side so that those unscrupulous budget increase of $14 million over the next three years. I’m few — those who do not respect their workers’ rights, those especially proud that part of improving services for workers who do not pay according to the law — don’t have unfair will be doing away with the self-help kit, which for too long economic advantage over the good employers. Tat is the has been a barrier to workers seeking help. As we implement whole point here. We have gone for far too long without these improvements, the employment standards branch will making these changes. become more accessible and the complaint process more Workplaces have changed since the last review took place streamlined and efective for all clients. in 1992. We didn’t even have Google at that time. Tis is how I’m aware that some people and some groups have been far we have come. Workplaces have changed. Te needs of asking why government is bringing forward these particular the workers and employers also have changed. We have the 9214 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 gig economy. We have workplaces that are very precarious. to turn over their gratuities will ensure that customers’ We need to look at those areas so that our laws are refect- expectations are met. I can certainly say that when I leave a ing and reacting to the changing world of workplaces. Tat’s tip, my expectation is that all or, certainly, at least the bulk of what these changes are all about. that tip is going to the person providing the service and not I’m so proud to be part of a government…. I’m so proud to to someone who owns the particular company. be part of my colleagues who, I know, have been lobbying for Also in this bill, workers will get enhanced protection the last at least 16 years and have been listening and bringing through the doubling of the period during which they can those issues to my attention and to our government’s atten- recover owed wages, from six months to a year. I totally sup- tion so that we could make changes for the better for those port that. Tese are small steps, and we do back them. people who have been waiting for so long. [3:20 p.m.] Many employers have been waiting for so long, because We’re also generally supportive of the bill’s change to how many of those few bad employers were taking so much worker complaints are handled by the employment stand- advantage of their honesty. We want to stop that and be ards branch. We support a worker’s ability to directly bring on the side of good employers, be on the side of the work- a complaint to the employment standards branch, but we ers, because as I said, the workers are the lifeblood of our do have some concerns about how some of the changes will economy. Tese changes go a long way in addressing those actually be implemented. areas. It’s a bold commitment to require the director of the I am so proud to present Bill 8. I know that there are other employment standards branch to investigate all complaints members who have much, much, much interest in this. I will accepted for resolution, but this begs the question, to be wait, listen and, hopefully, get full support from all members explored more fully in committee stage, of if the resources of this House. are in place to actually make this happen. We know that investigations can be pricey, and they can be time-consum- J. Martin: Tanks to the minister for giving an overview ing. Tey require an awful lot of work, and they need the of the Employment Standards Amendment Act, which I’m resources in place. happy to rise and speak to this afernoon, this being Bill 8. If these resources are lacking, the outcome is generally Tere’s a lot to support in the changes being brought for- going to result in delays to a dragged-out process that just ward in the bill. However, there are parts that do lack the breeds frustration and resentment. I do look forward to the detail and solid defnitions that one would expect from minister detailing how this will be prevented when we get to something that is potentially going to become the law of the the committee stage. land. In reality, this means leaving details out, cooking them Bill 8 also provides fexibility for the employment stand- up in the bowels of government and then imposing them ards branch to waive or raise penalties. Tis, too, while cer- without proper debate at a future point in time. tainly an acceptable idea, comes with challenges that need Tis is where things are a little bit disappointing, and I will to be addressed. Tere’s nothing in the bill that indicates, for review this later in my remarks and, certainly, during third instance, how this policy will be applied in a way that avoids reading. But I’ll begin by speaking to some of the changes unfair or haphazard applications of increases or the waiving that we do support as the ofcial opposition. of penalties altogether. And there are no clear criteria of how We certainly welcome the new protection for workers this will be applied — yet another case of details to come at a facing difcult personal circumstances. Up to ten non-con- later date outside of the debate in this House. secutive days of unpaid leave will assist workers feeing Te most troubling section of the bill is the one bringing domestic violence or seeking medical treatment with their in changes related to young people working. Everyone situations. And the possibility of up to 15 weeks of consec- in this House, obviously, wants young people to be safe, utive unpaid leave will provide the time for those escaping whether they’re at home, at school, at their afer-school situations to do so without worrying about their job. job or on weekends at their part-time job. But the problem Tis bill also introduces a worthwhile change by aligning is that these changes here stem from an all-too-typical, the unpaid job protection for workers taking care of critically Victoria-knows-best approach taken by the government, ill family members with EI benefts available to them: 36 partnered with an absence of details on how the new rules weeks for a critically ill child and 16 weeks for an adult. will be implemented. We also support changes that will ensure that workers are Te bill ofers some confusion, rather than the clarity paid properly. Te bill before us protects what most con- needed to ensure that we’re protecting young workers while, sumers expect when they’re dining out: the tips go to the at the same time, not discouraging them or preventing them person providing the service and not to the employer. We from having the ability to access the life-changing opportun- certainly support disallowing employers, other than those ity of an afer-school job or a weekend, part-time job. who are doing the very same work as those in the tip pool, Tese opportunities come in many diferent forms. It from getting access to that tip pool, that revenue source. could be as simple as helping out and getting paid on the New rules prohibiting employers from withholding tips, family farm. It could be working the cash register at the fam- from deducting amounts from the top or requiring workers ily corner store. It could also be the pure entrepreneurial Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9215 spirit of a young person mowing lawns for neighbours or prohibited. We certainly need a little bit of clarity and maybe maybe shovelling snow in the wintertime. a rethink on that one. Te legislation leaves doubt. It’s very vague about just Farming families — really, not just in the agriculture what is, and what is not, possible for families and for young sector and not just farming families but any family with a workers. For instance, the bill allows light work for 14- and business — typically have countless advantages to having 15-year-olds. Bureaucrats will determine what’s considered their children help out afer school, paid or otherwise. Tis light versus heavy work when they get around to it. Does benefts the family, and it certainly benefts the young per- this simply mean that young people will be able to babysit son, who gets the on-the-job training learning about a and maybe stock shelves? What about mowing lawns? What work ethic. about some landscaping responsibilities? Tey’re developing skill sets that they might not otherwise Is working in a restaurant at the cash register or busing get. Tey’re certainly getting a sense of pride and accom- tables acceptable? And at what age is it acceptable? I know plishment. Tey might learn how a business works. Tey’re that ofen I’ll go into a small restaurant and a child maybe dealing with some of the practical applications of what as young as 12 years old will be the one that will come they’re learning in school, building some strength, building and bring some tea, drop the menu of and run errands some character, testing responsibility. throughout my time there as a visitor. Of course, we all agree young workers deserve special pro- None of this is clearly defned. We have to seek clarifca- tection. Tey deserve a chance to work if they can and if they tion from the minister when we do get to committee. want to. But the legislation fails to recognize that many teens For those 16 to 18, there’s a restriction from doing haz- are mature enough at their age and are more than capable of ardous work, which everybody supports. But we don’t have a handling themselves appropriately and safely in certain cir- reference or a description or a defnition to determine what cumstances. It would be helpful for us, as legislators, to be that actually constitutes. So it’s another case of putting legis- able to defne what those circumstances are. lation before the House without the pertinent details. As We all know kids who — I mean, let’s face it — probably legislators who have been put here by our constituents, we’re shouldn’t even be around anything related to a job site. the ones that should be front and centre during this debate. Tey’re not ready. Tey’re too careless. Tey don’t have the It should not be lef up to bureaucrats down the road to sup- attention span. Certainly, we want to make sure that young ply the actual defnitions of what’s constituted here. people are not put in a position where there could be an acci- Also lacking in this legislation: we don’t have specifcs dent or something could go wrong. around impacts in the agricultural sector, which is one of the Tis legislation is imposing very vague, very nondescript areas where so many young people — in my riding and the restrictions based on chronological age and completely dis- ridings of many other members in this House — get their counting the discretion of parents of those aged 14 to 18. I frst opportunity to go to work on a part-time basis or a mean, I know that some people will disagree with me, but summertime job. It’s one of the largest employers of young parents know much better than bureaucrats and elected of- people. It supplies opportunities for young people to work cials how mature their child is, what responsibilities they can in the summer, work in the season and gain some fnancial take on and what type of workload is going to be appropriate rewards. for them at that point in their life. [3:25 p.m.] I’m not too convinced that Victoria knows best. And bur- I’d like to tell the story of when I was 13. I picked berries eaucrats who maybe have never, ever, ever worked an hour in Richmond virtually every day for the summer so I could outside of being in government are going to be the ones who buy my frst ten-speed bike. If I was 13 years old today, and set the terms and conditions of what work a young person this legislation becomes law, would I be allowed to do that? may or may not be involved in. It’s not encouraging. Tat is a question that we’re not able to answer yet because Perhaps Victoria may want to look to some other juris- we don’t have the defnitions. dictions for ways to bring some clarity, to bring some spe- Tere are so many young people in my riding and other cifcs, to the restrictions we want to impose. For instance, parts of the Fraser Valley working on the family farm. in Ontario, 14-year-olds can work in ofces, stores, arenas, Tey’re asking me and my colleagues: “Can you please restaurant serving areas and a multitude of other venues. At provide some clarity about this legislation and what it actu- 15, they can work in most factory settings, including restaur- ally means?” ant kitchens and automotive service garages, produce and When the minister launched this bill, he told the media meat preparation or shipping and receiving areas in grocery that the changes that he was presenting would not prevent stores, laundries and warehouses. kids from getting their chores done as long as they’re not get- Tese kinds of regulations are specifc, and everyone ting paid for them. Tis is a little bit awkward because when knows the rules because they are more specifc than some a young person can run the family tractor afer school and general term such as “light work” or “hazardous work.” Let’s they’re not getting paid, it’s okay. But if they were to run the just give the defnitions some clarity so we all know what the same tractor in the same feld for pay, now all of a sudden, it’s ground rules are and we can all abide accordingly. In Manitoba, young people, 13, 14, and 15 years of age, 9216 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 cannot work on a construction site, which makes perfect but also the same thoughts with respect to those aspects of sense; in industrial or manufacturing processes; in pruning, the bill that are relatively straightforward. repairing, maintaining or removing trees or shrubs; or at Te bill makes a number of changes to the Employment heights more than 1.5 metres. Standards Act. It improves fairness for workers and ensures [3:30 p.m.] a balance in workplaces. Frankly, part of our confdence and Tat is specifc. Tat is laying out exactly what work a supply agreement actually stated that we would take steps young person, 13 years of age, can and cannot do. And it to improve fairness for workers and ensure balances in the would be helpful if the government in British Columbia was workplace. In essence, you could say that government is as thoughtful as the one in Manitoba about giving that clarity delivering on a commitment in the confdence and supply and specifcity to the legislation. agreement. Our caucus’s position and how we approached this was [J. Isaacs in the chair.] from the starting point of focusing on good public policy that puts the health and well-being of people at its core. In Manitoba, those 13-year-olds can still work in food Our goal has been, at all times, to try to stop the pendulum preparation areas doing tasks such as washing dishes, mix- swings that have been going on in British Columbia labour ing salads, flling drink orders and a variety of other chores policy for decades, from one extreme to the other. We in the kitchen area. Tis isn’t an exhaustive list. We don’t wanted to see a thoughtful approach to policy develop- need to go into that, but it’s an example of how other jur- ment that actually is something that we can all be proud isdictions have brought about specifc situations where a of and is not something that will change the second the young person may or may not work in a particular facility. next government changes. Always, government changes at It ensures that the legislation works for families, for young some point in the road. people and for safety. It would be nice to be doing likewise Tis bill actually does a very good job, in my view, in in British Columbia. listening to stakeholders and in coming up with a very reas- I think back to, probably, everywhere from, like, grades 8, onable approach to modernizing our employment standards 9, 10, 11 and 12, kind of those ages, 13, 14 — and up to when in British Columbia. Many of the steps are indeed very pos- you graduate, 17, 18, somewhere around there. I think about itive, and we’re delighted to support them. A key element to all the people that were working at gas stations and would this legislation is to better protect the health and well-being pump gas. Tey would change your oil and check your tires. of some of the most vulnerable people in our community. In Would they be allowed to do that? I know one buddy, Larry. particular, the changes will give job security to workers fee- He was doing that when he was 14 years old. He was prob- ing domestic violence and protect children from dangerous ably the frst one of us in my peer group that was able, a few work. I’ll come to that in a minute when I address the issue years later, to purchase his frst slightly used vehicle. He did of light work versus dangerous work. that by pumping gas. Would he be allowed to do that today? [3:35 p.m.] What about young people that work in the orchards Te bill also modernizes the employment standards in the Okanagan, where they’ve been doing it for gener- branch complaint resolution process and ensures that people ations? Will they be allowed to continue doing that and are paid the wages that they are owed — again, welcome learning a little bit about earning a paycheque, seeing additions in this amendment act. It implements common- some of the taxes that get taken away, maintaining a sense, reasonable changes to improve fairness and balance budget and a savings account, getting some economic in the workplace. I’m glad it’s been receiving support from experience as well as the work experience? both the employer and the labour community. You know I do look forward to canvassing these specifcs as we move you’ve done something right when both of these groups of forward to the committee stage, as this session slowly winds stakeholders are supportive of the change, so the minister up. I hope that coming through this at the end, we can ensure deserves some credit in this regard. that the legislation protects young workers, protects them Jock Finlayson, for example, is not known to be someone every step of the way, without denying them or their families who’s advocating for tighter labour code changes. He’s from the kind of life-changing opportunity that afer-school work the B.C. Business Council. He said that they generally agree can bring. I know so many of my colleagues in this House with almost all of the changes proposed in the bill, while benefted from that experience, and I hope we’re not about labour advocates are also celebrating these changes. Tat’s a to deny this generation the opportunity to do likewise. good thing. I’ll speak to the changes the bill makes in a little more A. Weaver: It gives me great pleasure to rise and speak detail as we come up. Let me start with child employment. in second reading to Bill 8, Employment Standards Amend- Tis was an issue that the member for Chilliwack focused ment Act, 2019. Te member from Chilliwack covered many extensively on. of the points I was going to address, so a bit of a “me too” In sections 6 and 7 of the bill, it’s changing the rules would probably summarize where I’m going to go with my regarding the hiring of children. Right now in British Col- remarks here at second reading. I share the same concerns umbia, children under 15 can be hired with written parental Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9217 consent, and the director, the so-called director, must permit of the minister’s intention. I feel quite confdent…. I’m not the hiring of a child under 12. But under the new rules in worried too much that we’re going to be too draconian here. this bill, there are diferent criteria for light work, for haz- But that will give him the opportunity to clarify this. ardous work and all other non-prescribed work. Non-pre- Our current rules don’t actually comply with the Interna- scribed means those jobs that are not listed in the examples tional Labour Organization’s standards. In fact, the ILO, as that are given. it’s known, sets international standards for minimum age of Te defnitions of “light work” and “hazardous” work, of employment at 16, except for light work. Canada ratifed the course, have been lef to regulation. Terein lies, I think, convention in 2016. some of the concerns of the member for Chilliwack, which [3:40 p.m.] I share. We hope — and I expect, and I’m sure the minister Hon. Speaker, I believe the House Leader for the govern- will do this — that during committee stage, he’ll fesh out ment needs to make a brief interjection. I move adjournment some of the examples of what he’s thinking in terms of what of the debate, and I’ll reserve my right to continue in a few this means. Tat will give the public a sense of comfort that moments once we proceed further. the directions he’s proposing are, indeed, common sense and not more draconian, as some people might assume it’s going. A. Weaver moved adjournment of debate. Under the new rules, as I mentioned, there are diferent defnitions of light work and hazardous work. Te act Motion approved. raises the age that a child may work with the director’s per- mission from 12 to 14. Children aged 14 to 15 will be able Reporting of Bills to perform light work — which will also be defned, as I mentioned, through regulation — with the written consent BILL 7 — BUSINESS PRACTICES AND of their parents. CONSUMER PROTECTION Children aged 14 to 15 will be able to perform other non- AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 hazardous work only with the director’s permission, and children under 16 now will be prohibited from being hired Bill 7, Business Practices and Consumer Protection in a hazardous industry or for hazardous work. Children Amendment Act, 2019, reported complete with amend- aged 16 to 19, who have not attained a prescribed age in ment, to be considered at the next sitting of the House afer respect to a specifc hazardous work, will also not be able to today. work in those industries. Hazardous industries and hazardous work will be defned, Hon. M. Farnworth: I call committee stage on Bill 27, and as I mentioned, through regulation, and they’re likely to be in this House, I call continued debate on Bill 8. I thank the harmful to the health, safety or morals of a person under 16. member for his indulgence. In theory, this is eminently sensible. I think I heard that from the member for Chilliwack, and I heard the intent from Second Reading of Bills the minister. Te danger, of course, is that given the fact that we have not seen the regulations, there are examples that one BILL 8 — EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS could conjure up that are somewhat troubling. AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 My frst job was, indeed, at the age of about 13, cutting (continued) lawns. I was actually quite a big guy when I was 13. I grew fast. I was the big kid in the class. For me, pushing a lawn A. Weaver: I’ll continue. I was talking about the Inter- mower around would have been like a 17-year-old. I didn’t national Labour Organization standards and the fact that grow much from about 13 to about 18, but I was very large the minimum age of employment was 16, except for light at the age of 13. work, according to their standards, which Canada ratifed I know many people have done…. I would hope that lawn in 2016. We are signatories of this. However, we’re not in mowing would be considered something that we might open line with ILO standards. So the legislation is bringing British up. Because for many, doing some light gardening work or Columbia in line with ILO standards. Frankly, B.C. is the helping out their aging neighbours, which I did as a child least restrictive jurisdiction in Canada with respect to child too…. You ofen don’t even do it for work. You do it just employment, possibly with the exception of Yukon. I’m not because you’re helping out your neighbour, who happens to sure. But it seems that we may be behind Yukon. be a senior, who’s not got the same physical abilities that they Anyway, disability claims. Te statistics show that over $1 used to have. You go and cut their lawn, maybe, and maybe million was paid out in job-related claims for workers aged you do some grocery shopping for them or maybe you fx 14 and under between 2007 and 2016. Tink about that. something or even change a lightbulb. Tese are things that Over $1 million paid out in job-related disability claims by you may not get paid for. You may even get paid, but you workers age 14 and under. In fact, every year between 2005 may not have asked for pay. and 2016, workers aged 14 and less have been injured ser- Again, I hope, in the committee stage, we get a feshing out iously enough on the job to qualify for a long-term disab- 9218 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 ility pension. Imagine that. Tirteen years old, doing some In my case, twice I’ve had to deal with this. In both times hazardous work that you probably shouldn’t have be doing, afer our children were born, my wife, sadly, spent an awful and you get injured. Now you’re on long-term disability and long time in hospital — one month, in fact, in hospital afer a pension for the rest of your life. the frst one and similarly with the second one. Te chair of I would suggest that this legislation is designed specifcally my department where I was working was very open-minded. to ensure that these children are not working in such posi- He recognized — and he didn’t have to — that with a brand- tions so that we’re not actually having to deal with disability new baby at home and a wife in critical condition in hospital, pensions being ofered to 13-year-olds. Tere will always be this is not exactly the type of time that you want to be freak examples. Hopefully, we’ll actually take this to the same demanding 9-to-5 working. I was given, because of the grace level as the rest Canada and meet the ILO standards, inter- of my employer, the time of to actually look afer a newborn. nationally, that Canada is a signatory to. Tat was because my direct employer, my direct person If we continue on then, in our view, it’s important that the that I reported to, was a good person. He, basically, talked policy work to defne the types of work children may do is with my colleagues, and people juggled the situation undertaken carefully. Tat’s as raised by the member from around to cover my teaching and to cover my other stuf so Chilliwack. We’ve heard, as the member from Chilliwack has that I could be with the family. It was simply not an option also heard, from people who are worried that the changes to for my spouse, who was in hospital, to care for a brand- child employment will actually prohibit their children from new child. Let me tell you, I can redefne that the defni- doing the jobs they’re already doing, like working at their tion of stress is when you have a new child and your wife corner store or, perhaps, McDonald’s. One of my frst jobs, is very ill in hospital. I was working at an equivalent in England. It was like a So I’m all for this — 100 percent. At the time, of course, I McDonald’s. Beefeater it was called. could have done the same thing with parental…. Well, actu- Again, is fipping at the grill considered hazardous work, ally, there was no parental leave. I wasn’t able to take that or is it not considered hazardous work? Te grill is hot. If you because back in the day, there was no parental leave for fath- put your arm on it, you can get third-degree burns. However, ers. Tat’s also new legislation that’s been brought in. We’re I would suggest that we need to fesh this out a little more to modernizing, and we’re doing it here. Tese kinds of changes get an idea of what the minister is thinking. are bringing us into the 21st century, and it behooves us to You know, these sorts of jobs are quite important for support them and celebrate the successes we have. young people to get experience and fnancial independence. To give some more information here, this change that For me, it was the ability to actually have some spending we’re doing is actually important because it’s aligning British money to do things that I wanted to do with my friends. Columbia with the EI benefts that were introduced in I think it’s good training for youth and young teenagers to December 2017 by the federal government. It provides fn- actually have a paper route, for example. Is that considered ancial support there to those caring for a critically ill child or hazardous? I suspect not, but we’d need to get some clarifc- adult family member. We’re coming into step with the fed- ation as we move forward. eral legislation. Te change, here in B.C., ensures that work- We’ll be exploring this in committee stage. Well, I’m hop- ers are able to take advantage of EI without the risk of los- ing I’ll be able to explore this in committee stage. It’s quite ing their jobs. Of course, I think most people in this House difcult in light of the fact that, as I’m speaking here today, would support that. I’m supposed to be in three places. Te civil forfeiture bill, Section 19 of the bill adds some important changes to cre- which we’re discussing — clearly, I couldn’t participate in ate leave in the case of domestic violence — physical, sexual, committee stage. Also, estimates for the Ministry of Energy psychological or emotional abuse by an intimate partner or and Mines is happening now, and I can’t participate there. So by a family member. In this case, it’s going to be up to ten we’ll try to participate in committee stage, but unless I clone days of intermittent continuous leave and up to 15 weeks of myself two other ways, it’s going to be difcult if it’s happen- continuous unpaid leave. ing at the same time. I note that the House Leader of the government has A second aspect of this bill that we support is the job-pro- once again entered, and I suspect that he’s wishing to move tected leaves for critical illness and domestic violence. It’s in forward one of the committee stages. I would like to move section 18. It creates unpaid critical illness or injury leave. adjournment of the debate for the second time and reserve Tis is important because it grants leave for up to 36 weeks my right to continue forward in the debate when it is next to care for a critically ill child under 19 and up to 16 weeks to called. care for a critically ill adult family member. Tis is import- ant. I have a personal story that I’ll come to. A. Weaver moved adjournment of debate. [3:45 p.m.] It also expands the defnition of immediate family to Motion approved. include a parent or child of the employee’s spouse. It requires a certifcate from a nurse practitioner or medical practition- er to actually do this. Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9219

Report and Tird Reading of Bills which is on the papers, where we were attempting to provide an ability for people to break a lease if they are subject to BILL 27 — TICKET SALES ACT domestic violence. In this spirit, obviously, I and my col- leagues support this. Bill 27, Ticket Sales Act, reported complete without To give some background, the Parliamentary Secretary on amendment, read a third time and passed. Gender Equity…. She cannot be here now because, I under- stand — I shouldn’t be commenting on this — she’s in anoth- Hon. M. Farnworth: Again, I thank the member for his er committee, just like me, and you can’t be in two places indulgence. I am pretty sure that this will be the last time his at once. With that said, she recommended the domestic speech gets interrupted. I thank him for that. violence leave but recommended that it be a mix of paid and With that, I call, in this chamber, continued second read- unpaid leave. ing debate on Bill 8. In Section A, the Douglas Fir Room, I Te B.C. Federation also advocated for paid domestic call the estimates for the Ministry of Health. violence leave. Te B.C. Law Institute, which the minister [3:50 p.m.] referred to, did not recommend further changes to leave entitlements and didn’t explore this type of leave specifcally, Second Reading of Bills although, as pointed out by the member from Chilliwack, both Manitoba and Ontario have enacted similar leaves. In BILL 8 — EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS Manitoba, it was 2016, and in Ontario, it was 2018. But in AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 both of those cases, they provided fve days of paid leave in a (continued) 52-week period. Unpaid leave is a good start. It’s important to ensure A. Weaver: I’m delighted to rise and continue, but let victims of violence have job security — that’s the critical me say that I’m thrilled to have taken my place to allow Bill aspect of this — and are able to take the time they need 27 to move and be enacted. Bill 27, of course, is the Ticket to address medical, psychological, legal and other issues. Sales Act. But the leave should be paid, frankly, I would argue. It’s Te only thing I’m troubled by is that I wish we’d done unlikely that many people could aford 15 weeks unpaid that two months ago, because I recently acquired two tickets leave from their work. I’m hoping that as we move forward to Paul McCartney in Vancouver. I had to pay far too much and as we start to improve this beneft, it expands to pro- money for those tickets because I got them on a resale site. tect people for longer periods. Had this bill passed two months ago, my Paul McCartney Te requirement on the employee to provide sufcient tickets — he’s coming to Vancouver in June or July; I can’t proof of their entitlement raises some questions about pri- remember — would have been an awful lot cheaper than I vacy. If I’m able to be here, I will be exploring that a little had to pay. But you don’t get to see Paul McCartney very more at committee stage, although the member from Chilli- ofen in your life. I fgure this is a once-in-a-lifetime event, so wack seems to be following similar lines of questioning. we forked out the dough. We may live to regret it but hope- Also, we want to ensure and explore why this leave is fully not. Anyway, thank you for passing this bill. only granted to survivors of sexual assault in an intimate I continue on with section 19 in the Employment Stand- relationship and why those who are assaulted outside of an ards Amendment Act that we’re discussing. Tis was the sec- intimate relationship are not receiving similar protections. tion that created leave for domestic violence for physical, An example I could imagine, of course, is the case of some- sexual or psychological or emotional abuse by an intimate body living in the same building as you. It may not be intim- partner or by a family member. I mentioned that it created ate, but it may be a situation whereby you have somebody in up to ten days of intermittent or continuous leave and up to your apartment building and there has been a sexual assault 15 weeks of continuous unpaid leave. I also was about to say, from somebody in the building. Tere may be issues there and now I can complete this section, that it clarifes that a that need to be dealt with as well. child who is an employee or eligible person is also deemed Changes to the employment standards branch. Tis is to have experienced domestic violence if they are directly or coming under section 25. Tese changes are how the director indirectly exposed to domestic violence experienced by an must deal with complaints under the act that are brought to intimate partner or family member of the child. his or her attention. It requires directors to review all com- Tis requires the employee to request leave for specifc plaints as long as they are made within the required time purposes, including medical attention, victim services, period. Previously, the director could refuse to accept to counselling, relocation, law enforcement or prescribed pur- review complaints if they didn’t meet certain criteria. Now poses. Such prescribed purposes come forward in regula- they must review these complaints but may cease to continue tions. Te bill requires the employee, if requested by the forth with the review if they meet the criteria — i.e., if it’s employer, to provide reasonably sufcient proof that they are decided that the complaint is frivolous or if there isn’t entitled to the leave. enough evidence. Tis mirrors a private member’s bill that I brought in, [3:55 p.m.] 9220 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

Tis bill, then, removes the requirement that employees We all know examples of people who have worked in use a self-help kit — that was quite prohibitive to many restaurants or bars where the employer collects the tips on people, this so-called self-help kit — before they’re able to behalf of everyone and redistributes them in a fair manner access the branch for complaints. Why this is important and to ensure that people like the cooks, the bus people, the host- why it’s sensible to make these changes to improve fairness ess or hosts, the bartenders, everybody, has equal access. in the complaints resolution process is that the complaints Because in a restaurant, you rise and fall collectively. Te noticeably declined with the introduction of the self-help kit. success of the restaurant is based on everybody, not just one. In fact, in its 2003 employment standard changes, the pre- So it’s not uncommon to pool tips, in a fashion, and redis- vious government required workers to use this self-help kit tribute, but it’s also not uncommon for certain employers to and present it to their employer before they could submit a believe they have a share in that tip process. Tis bill is say- formal complaint to the employment branch. ing: “No. Not unless you’re participating.” Imagine. If you believe you haven’t been paid for some- If the owner of the bar is actually the bartender, sure. You thing and you want to go to the employment standards can participate, under this legislation, in the tip sharing and branch, you have to go through the self-help kit. Ten you tip pools. But if the owner of the bar is sitting at home in have to take your complaint to the employer frst. At that Vancouver while the bar is in Victoria, no, you can’t. It’s stage, you have to meet face-to-face with the employer and obviously not happening everywhere, but it cracks down on hash it out a bit before you can even take it to the employ- any specifc examples in this case. It also provides that the ment standards branch. Clearly, the data will show this was employer may share in gratuities, as I mentioned, if they reg- prohibitive to actually moving forward in many cases. ularly perform, to a substantial degree, which will need to be Tis change proposed by government was a unanimous defned, the same work performed by the employees. recommendation by the B.C. Law Institute. Tey did not like Tere are a number of other changes. Tese are more the self-help kit, and they did not believe it should be a pre- minor, in general. Section 3 of the bill sets the Employment requisite to accessing the branch. In fact, in the consultation Standards Act as the foor for collective bargaining. It paper they wrote, they stated that a “marked and suspicious provides that collective agreements replace the act only if decline in the number of complaints fled” was noticed afer their provisions meet or exceed the provisions of the the introduction of the mandatory self-help kit. Employment Standards Act. Te data they provide is that complaints declined from Now, this is fne. It only applies to collective agreements 11,311 in 1999 to 2000 to 4,839 in 2003 to 2004. What’s the now once they are renewed. It doesn’t go back and supersede diference there between 1999 to 2000 and 2003 to ’04? Of existing agreements. But afer they’re renewed, and once this course, in the 1990s — the so-called dreaded 1990s that we section comes into force, then it will apply moving forward. heard about for so many years — was a previous NDP gov- Under this change, if the provisions of an agreement do not ernment. In 2003, we’re in the 16-year period that we’ve also meet or exceed the act, then the act prevails. heard a lot about. Te government changed, the act changed, [4:00 p.m.] and the number of complaints declined from 11,311 to Te B.C. Business Council, in this case, has raised some 4,839. Tat’s not because employers were suddenly not hav- concerns, noting that this is the only change that they have ing complaints. Tat’s a direct consequence of the introduc- some signifcant troubles with. Te reason why is not so tion of the self-help kit, which for many was prohibitive. much what’s in the act now. It’s about what’s enabled through Te B.C. Law Institute found that cases of employees regulatory power or what may come down in the future. being dismissed afer presenting the self-help kit to their Right now the Employment Standards Act, providing the employer were rather troubling. You fll out this self-help foor, is a provision that existed under the NDP in 1994. It kit, you take it to your employer, and you’re summarily was one of these pendulum-swing things that was eliminated dismissed. Ten you have to go through the process to when the B.C. Liberals came in 2002 — from one extreme to continue to fght. For many people, it’s just too much. Te the other. What Jock Finlayson noted in his analysis of this B.C. Law Institute also found the mandatory self-help kit was that he was concerned that if government makes major to be a barrier, as I mentioned, to accessing the employ- changes to the act in the future — such as to hours or cof- ment standards branch. fee breaks or overtime changes — this will have a signifcant Moving to wage recovery and rules for gratuities. Tese impact on collective agreements. are other changes in the act. Te bill makes a number of I concur with him, but I would suggest that as it stands changes in this regard. It expands the wage recovery period now, the bill before us does not go that far, so as it stands from six months to 12 months and creates a director and right now, I’m less troubled, and I would continue to mirror liability ofcer for wages in bankruptcy and insolvency situ- and watch, moving forward, what changes government is ations. It’s in section 15 that the rules respecting gratuities proposing. But certainly the bill as written now is not leading are set out. What they’re doing here — and again, this is to a situation that I think is overly concerning. Tose might an important change — is prohibiting employers from with- be famous last words. We’ll see where government plans to holding gratuities, making deductions or sharing in a gratu- take this in the months ahead. Te provision we will look ity pool. And it sets rules around redistributing gratuities. Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9221 at very carefully, as I noted, and will be watching for future sive to the changing world of work that people are dealing changes in this act to ensure that this doesn’t occur. with. How are we supporting people as they deal with the Section 5 in the act is going to require employers to make most precarious of work? How should the laws be updated information about employees’ rights available to employees. to deal with the increasing use of independent contractors? Perfectly reasonable. Employees should know what their [4:05 p.m.] rights are, and now employers are required to let them know. One of the cases we’ve heard is Uber, which has used inde- Section 9 of the act requires that operators of temporary help pendent contractors as drivers. Are they employees or not? agencies must be licensed. Tat, too, is important because we What are the laws, and how should we update these? Or want to ensure that fy-by-night operations are not operating should we update these? Tese are questions that are missing without the proper regulatory oversight. Te B.C. Employ- in the debate, and hopefully, as we move forward, an extens- ment Standards Coalition and the Canadian Centre for ive analysis of our labour codes will start to refect upon the Policy Alternatives called for this change, arguing that changing nature of work and, in fact, the growth of the gig employees of these agencies are ofen in particularly vulner- economy. able and precarious work situations. Another example is how can we be supportive of innovat- In conclusion, in my view, all of the changes in this bill ive business models and support emerging business realities, are common sense. Tey’re important. Tey’re needed. Tey ensuring we retain our business competitiveness in the 21st incorporate recommendations from the B.C. Law Institute, century? But at the same time, how do we protect against the which undertook a consultation on updating the act and erosion of rights and the deepening of inequality as this shif issued a fnal report. It also takes into account recommend- happens? ations from the B.C. Employment Standards Coalition, the Tere’s no doubt that the growing inequality between B.C. Federation of Labour and feedback from workers, those who have and those who don’t have is troubling. It’s employers and the public at large. troubling in that we know that in human history, each and Te upcoming months will require government to engage every example of such growing inequality continuing in a thorough consultation process to establish clear, fair and unbounded has led to the collapse of that society. I would balanced regulations that businesses can follow and to give suggest that it’s much more prudent for us to recognize that parents of teenagers clarity about what work they will be fairness and equality are important values and attributes that able to do in the future. Tat is the single most important we want to ensure follow through in our employment stand- thing missing from the bill itself now. It’s the clarity that par- ards and labour code. ents of teenagers want in terms of what is considered light So these questions and others need to be grappled with work versus hazardous work. We look forward to that being carefully as government considers further changes to the act, expanded upon in committee stage. and we look forward to the committee stage and participat- Te ministry has indicated that it’s planning to do a more ing in that in the days ahead. comprehensive review of employment standards and intro- duce more transformative legislation later in their term. S. Malcolmson: I’m pleased to follow the leader of the We’re looking forward to see where government is planning Green Party and the very thorough review of our Labour to go with this. I’ve received a number of questions from Minister’s changes to the Employment Standards Act. people about this bill and particularly issues that are missing Tis is Bill 8 that we are speaking to today. I’m going to from this bill. For example…. focus my remarks on issues related, I would say, in partic- I’ll just note quickly here, hon. Speaker — I believe I will ular, to summer employment. Tis is the time of year we’ve fnish before the light goes on — that I am designated and got a lot of young people moving into the workforce. In my only speaker. If I go 30 seconds over, I’m designated speak- work as Member of Parliament, one of our favourite things er on this. to do as an ofce was to try to match the Canada Summer Te example I wanted to give was the Supreme Court Jobs grants to the front-line community organizations that of Canada rule in 2016 that federally regulated employers were doing a great deal of work in our riding and help gen- cannot terminate employees without cause. Why hasn’t erate a lot of youth employment throughout Nanaimo-Lady- this legislation created any improved protection for work- smith. We saw the real benefts of that. ers who are fred without cause in British Columbia? Why Tank you to all the students that would write me letters aren’t we updating our legislation to refect the Supreme at the end of the year, letting me know what they had done Court of Canada ruling? Tese are questions that we have and how they were going to take that work forward. that might be addressed in future amendments to this act. I know how much workers and employers rely on employ- I hope government will consider such amendments as they ment law in order to protect them — to protect their rights, move forward. to refect the changing needs that we see in workplaces to It’s extremely important that we start in earnest to do the make sure that they remain fair and efcient. work to modernize our laws, to better support workers as Now, the difculty we’re in is for too long this province they are forced to adapt to the changing nature of work and hasn’t changed standards, even as other jurisdictions across the growth of the gig economy. Our laws need to be respon- the country have updated their standards quite seriously to 9222 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 protect workers. International organizations like the Inter- allow children to work in recorded and live entertainment national Labour Organization, ILO, have called out concerns with parental consent. And a lot of the work that I’ve heard about B.C.’s legislative, sort of, neglect of this particular legis- the Labour Minister talk about includes parental consent. lation — and especially as the working environment has Dangerous work is anything likely to endanger a child’s changed dramatically. health, safety or morals — for example, working on a con- We’ve got ourselves into an overdue situation, and I’m struction site or factory with heavy machinery. Defning delighted that it’s being dealt with now. Fifeen years went exactly what will be considered dangerous work will come by without signifcant changes to the act. Twenty-fve years at regulation stage. Again, the intention is to keep kids went by without a signifcant review. safe, recognize that children want to work, and there abso- Today with Bill 8…. Tis is, I believe, our second day of lutely is…. debating this legislation. Te Labour Minister’s changes that Tere are kinds of work that are quite appropriate for kids he’s making now are certainly overdue. Te changes will, in to carry out. Tis is not about doing family chores. Tis is particular, better protect children and youth from danger- about workplace situations where there are power dynamics ous work. Tis will be done by raising the age to 16 to work and where a young person may well be pushed into doing without a permit and adding tough new regulations allowing work that they should not. them to perform dangerous work. I think of my own community. Nanaimo has got a centur- In 2003, the previous government lowered the age of work ies-old relationship with coal mining. We heard terrible stor- to 12 years. And what efect did that have? I had a really ies about children lost in the workplace. I just had no idea tough conversation back at home a couple of weeks ago with that this was still happening in this day. So I’m very glad that the Nanaimo, Duncan and District Labour Council. Tis is our government is moving, with encouragement and advice what they said to me. Bringing the year of allowable work to from a lot of both employers and labour advocates on the as young as 12 meant that 12-year-olds could work in most ground, to do the work. industries, including food service, accommodation, farming, Here’s another piece of change in this legislation, Bill 8, construction and even manufacturing. Tey said this is a ser- which will also beneft students this summer. If you’re a serv- ious health and safety risk for these young people. Com- er relying on tips, proposed amendments in this legislation mercial equipment is dangerous, not appropriately sized for will ensure that all workers are able to recover the hard- children, and safe operation requires extensive training and earned wages that they are owed. Employers will be prohib- supervision. ited from withholding tips or other gratuities from workers. [4:10 p.m.] Tey’ll be prohibited from deducting amounts from them or Tese are not conditions in which our kids should be requiring them to be turned over to the employer. working, and doing this type of work has had real con- Tip-pooling, of course, is allowed. Tere are many people sequences. Kids are getting hurt. Tey told me that since in an operation that don’t necessarily get to pick the $1 bill 2003, over 2,000 children in British Columbia under the age or, say, the $5 bill of the restaurant table. But employers will of 15 have claimed work-related health care costs due to not themselves be able to pull from that unless they also are injuries. Tese are physical injuries on the job. I had no idea an actual worker delivering service in the workplace. this was happening. Tese changes are based on the tip regulation system that Te Labour Minister says that is $5.2 million in claims has been in place in Ontario for a little while, which includes from children for workplace injuries over a ten-year period. the same provisions as above. We’ve had some working In fact, the labour council said: “Tis number only refects experience there. the number of reported injuries. We know that many injuries Tere are a couple of other changes that we’ve made. go unreported, especially where the employer is the child’s Tey’re not in this legislation, but they are also going to own parent.”Tey fnished by saying: “Te government must beneft young people working on the ground this summer. do more to protect children by prioritizing their schooling Te cut that this government brought into small busi- and health and safety, not work. When youth are ready to go nesses — the small business tax cut of 20 percent. Know- to work, there need to be rigorous rules in place to ensure ing how much small businesses are the job creators, that is they are protected from injury or death.” going to help. Tat is the work we are doing today. Tis legislation will We’ve got a new program to support young farmers’ broadly raise the age that a child may work from 12, as it access to farmland with the B.C. land-matching program. I is now, to 16, and will better protect the safety of 16- to hear a lot, in my community, about how many people want 18-year-olds by putting tough expectations and restrictions to be farming but are not able to access it, given the high on the type of hazardous work they can be asked to per- cost of land. form. Also, the legislation provides exemptions that allow Youth that have been in foster care are getting free tuition 14- and 15-year-olds to perform light work that is safe for — also a great afordability thing and a piece that we’re just their health and development. An example could be stocking so proud of having been able to bring in. Eliminating interest shelves at a grocery store. on student loans is also going to make it easier for students Te legislation will maintain existing regulations that Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9223 to put more of what they earn this summer directly into their ment Standards Amendment Act. I will say from the outset education. that it’s not a bill that’s entirely without merit. Tere are some [4:15 p.m.] things that I agree with. I want to name a few of those things Ten all kinds of pieces are going to help them get to that I agree with, because I’m happy to vote for those things. work easier. Te bus pass for people with disabilities was Tere are some things that I disagree with in the bill as well, returned. We’ve got lower ferry fares. We’ve got ride-hailing and I want to point those out on behalf of my constituents. coming in the fall. Replacing so many of the Greyhound bus Up to ten non-consecutive days of unpaid leave will help routes for long-haul transport across the province…. When workers who are feeing domestic violence or seeking medic- Greyhound pulled out, then our government moved in and al treatment deal with their situations. I agree with this. Tis replaced a lot of those routes, about 80 percent of the routes. is defcient in that there is something that is lef out, and my So that’s helping. colleague is going to speak to that in a moment. But even Ten maybe just a fnal piece that I’ll end with — this is though defcient, I can support this as it stands. Te possibil- not about students, or we hope not about students — is long- ity of up to 15 weeks of consecutive unpaid leave will provide time pressure to have domestic violence leave included in the time for those escaping tragic situations to do so without the employment standards legislation. We know that women worrying about their job. Tat’s fne with me. making the very brave choice to leave an abusive relationship Te bill introduces a worthwhile change by aligning the are always thinking of their children. Ofen, leaving a mar- unpaid job protection for workers taking care of critically ill riage puts the woman and her children into poverty. It’s just family members with the EI benefts available to them. I can an unfair part of the economics of our country, something agree with that. that we are chipping away at and trying to make change, but Te bill before us protects what most consumers expect it is an extremely vulnerable time. when they’re dining out or riding, say, in a taxi — that tips Tis isn’t just sexual violence generally. Tis is about leav- go to the person providing the service, not to the employers. ing the home. We know that sometimes the workplace is Of course, we can agree with that. Tis bill would disallow the safest place for a woman to be. It’s sometimes where employers from getting access to the tip pool, except perhaps they have their biggest support systems. If they have their when they’re doing the same work. New rules prohibiting employer saying: “Don’t worry. Take some time. You need employers from withholding tips, from deducting amounts the time to fnd a new place to live and get your kids from the top or requiring the workers to turn over their gra- settled….” tuities will ensure the customer’s expectations are met. Tis My understanding, from the experience with Manitoba, is all fne. which was the frst province to bring in domestic violence [4:20 p.m.] leave provisions…. I believe they had provided eight days. Workers also get enhanced protection through the doub- Most women actually use something like two and a half or ling of the period for which they can recover owed wages three days. It was comfortable and reassuring for them to from six months to a year. I can support that. I can support a know that they had a bigger window that they could use, worker’s ability to directly bring a complaint to the employ- but in most cases, it was actually just the mental security ment standards branch. Tere are probably a few other that came with that. Tey wanted to get back to work. Tey things too. wanted to normalize their lives. But they did want to have Tere is a big issue with respect to the labour of young some time to get the kids settled in and to try to fnd accom- people. Here, I’m representing, in particular, the agricultural modation. families and businesses in my riding. I’ve heard from them Many other measures in this bill, especially around being on this. Agriculture is the biggest economic driver in my rid- able to take leave for a family member who needs palliative ing. Probably, agriculture is the biggest employer of under- care, are all absolutely vital things that are good for workers, aged people in the province, so I want to speak to that. good for workplaces and, obviously, work for their families. Broadly speaking, the bill raises the age a child may work I raise my hands, in particular, to the Labour Minister. I from 12 to 16. It provides exemptions, allowing 14- to know he had a lot of backlog to deal with. I know he had a 15-year-olds to perform light work, and restricts the type of big, long wish list from a lot of us. We want to see more, and hazardous work 16- to 18-year-olds can perform. we know more is coming. But to include that frst provision Now, I realize that the government can pass this bill. It has for domestic violence leave in Bill 8 is something that I par- the numbers to do that. It has the votes. But I hope the min- ticularly applaud — just one more measure towards women’s ister and his ofcials who are listening to the debate today equality and workplace safety. will take my remarks as a plea to apply some common sense With that, I’ll turn it over to a long list of others that I to this piece of legislation. know are eager to speak on this bill. Tank you for your I want to begin with a little bit of my own experience. attention. When I was 12 and 13, I delivered papers for $1 a week and babysat for 50 cents an hour. It was paid labour. Not L. Troness: It’s always a pleasure to stand in this House very much pay, but it was paid labour. Under this law, I and speak to bills. Tis particular one is Bill 8, the Employ- would need the director’s permission to do that. I think 9224 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 that’s simply an unreasonable restriction on the freedom of plan their business — if they’ll be able to fnd workers or if a young person and, certainly, the freedom of a family to those workers even will get permission to work. make that decision. It’s a discouragement to them — to pur- [4:25 p.m.] sue work early on, which, I think, is a good thing. I want to question the timing of this bill. Why now? All When I was 16, I got my frst job. I found work on a dairy of this is happening right now, while the job market is farm in the summer, near Edmonton. During that summer, I extremely tight and getting tighter all the time. Te biggest got up early at fve in the morning. I got the cows. Tat’s not complaint I have from employers right across the board, very hazardous. I helped with the milking. Tat’s not terribly whether it’s child care or truck driving or anything else, is hazardous, although a cow can kick you when you’re milk- fnding workers. Even fnding students to fll programs at ing. I shovelled a great deal of manure. I rode on a hayrack the University of the Fraser Valley Trades and Technology and threw thousands of bales. I suppose I could have injured Centre is difcult. Now, at this crucial point, the minister my back then. I drove tractors unsupervised. I hooked up decides to constrict the labour market and make it even big silage wagons, full of silage, and towed them around. I more difcult for young people to enter. climbed up an 80-foot silo and threw silage with a pitchfork. Young workers 15 to 24 comprise 13 percent of B.C.’s Pitchforks can be dangerous. I shovelled grain inside a grain workforce. Tis is not a small number. Tis bill could cause bin, near a grain auger. a serious disruption in labour, particularly farm labour. My I was near lots of machinery in the normal course of daily concern is not just about disallowing some young people life on a dairy farm, but it was a great opportunity. I learned from the job market but the bureaucracy that will be about all about farming and milking and how to work hard. required to administer the new system of permissions and I learned how to drive things and became more handy with the time it will take to get permission from the director for tools. It was an invaluable experience, learning and growing all the myriad of job possibilities in today’s economy. up on the farm. But I might not have been able to do that My next question that I want to move on to is: why at under this legislation, because under the regulations, haz- all? What is the problem? Te bill assumes that we have a ardous industries will be listed, and anyone 16 to 19 years of real problem in B.C., where we have forced child labour, age won’t be able to do that kind of work without special per- like some countries where child labour is the order of a mission. day. Sometimes it’s a matter of survival for a family in Perhaps an 18-year-old will be able to do some job listed some countries. as hazardous that a 17-year-old is not allowed to do. Tis is We are diferent here in Canada. In fact, child labour is without reference to the abilities of the person. I can think already tightly regulated. Do we have children toiling in the of a young guy who, at 15, was more competent on the farm mines and pulp mills of B.C. now? Of course not. Do we than I was at 18 or 19 — or 25, for that matter. But this bill have them operating heavy cranes and working 50 foors up, ignores the individual competencies of the worker. building skyscrapers? Of course not. We already, even as this bill is tabled, have uncertainty Tere is a risk analysis company called Maplecrof that in the industry — enough uncertainty that the minister had does a periodic report on global child labour, and it ranks to go out and publicly reassure people that nothing would 198 countries in degree of severity. Te ten worst countries change in the short term. We have thousands of young are these: Eritrea, Somalia, the Congo, Myanmar, Sudan, people and hundreds of employers, particularly in the agri- Afghanistan, Pakistan, Zimbabwe and Yemen — all, of cultural sector, in my riding, as I said, yet the agricultural course, very low-income countries, countries with huge sector was not broadly consulted on this problem. Te min- human rights issues. I don’t have the full report, but I do ister has said publicly that anyone under 16 working on a know that Denmark was at the very bottom of the list. It was farm, or something like that, can continue while the govern- the best in terms of child labour, number 198. I suspect that ment works out its regulations, but who knows how long that Canada is down at the bottom of that list as one of the least will take? Everyone is in limbo in the meantime. risky countries for child labour in the world. Farm families are in limbo too. Te minister said in a press For example, every child, by law, has to be in school every conference that kids on the farm can still do the chores as day. Te frst child labour law in Canada was passed in long as they’re not paid. How is that fair? Why is work okay Ontario in 1891, almost 150 years ago. We have a strong when it’s unpaid, but prohibited if it’s paid? It just doesn’t culture in Canada and in B.C. of protecting children from make sense. forced or hazardous labour. But our government seems to When this bill was introduced, almost immediately, I think that we have a huge problem that needs solving. Te received a call from a berry producer in my riding. He said: minister has not demonstrated that this is the case. In fact, “I have 150 young people who work on my farm every sum- he has submitted nothing, no data, to this House, not even mer. What am I supposed to do? Will they each require the an anecdote. Keeping up with the Joneses. Keeping up with explicit approval of the director that’s listed in the bill?” Te the international standards, when most international stand- very survival of his business hangs in the balance, while the ards are far lower than ours. To me, this is regulation for reg- government takes its time. Young people won’t know if next ulation’s sake. year they’ll be able to work. Employers won’t know how to In fact, a constituent brought to me a very good argument. Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9225

He said if the government is worried about health, maybe a contradiction in government policy, because I see that we they should ban sports. Te B.C. injury research and preven- don’t trust minors in certain situations. I want to bring to tion unit — I looked at their website — says that sports are the Speaker’s attention section 17 of the Infants Act, which the highest risk to 15- to 19-year-old youth, not work. In one talks about the consent of an infant to medical treatment. year, 2010, which is listed on the website, here are the medic- Tis brings into focus the concept of a mature minor, some- al costs of sports injuries. Falls from skates, skis, boards and one under the age of 19 who exhibits, on an individual basis, blades: $79 million. Falls in playgrounds: $36 million. Falls maturity beyond their years. while diving: $4 million. Pedal-cycle accidents: $99 million. Right now a child who is a mature minor may make their ATV and snowmobile accidents: $55 million. Struck by or own health care decisions independent of their parents’ or against sports equipment: $25 million. guardian’s wishes. In our province, there is no set age when a From the magazine Today’s Parent, from June of 2014, I child is considered capable to give consent. Tis means that want to give a quote. “One in every fve kids who is involved they can be very young, indeed. with a sport or activity will sufer an injury over the course of As long as a health care practitioner has explained the a year. Tat’s about 1.2 million kids who have anything from need for the treatment, what it involves and its benefts and sprained ankles to more serious injuries like broken bones risks, a child can consent to any treatment involving the and concussions.” health care system. Tis includes treatments to do with sexu- Te leader for the Green Party said that over $1 million al health and other related, highly sensitive matters that can was paid out in job-related disability claims for workers aged have important life consequences, but also any other kind 14 and under between 2007 and 2016, and the member for of treatment, like mental health counselling or take any pre- Nanaimo just mentioned that over a ten-year period, $5.2 scription drug or choose any other treatment ofered by our million in workplace costs came as a result of youth workers. health care system. But just counting up the numbers here, there is more than A child can choose to change his or her own name. But $200 million just in sports injuries alone. If the government when it comes to work, suddenly there is no such thing as a was concerned about safety, maybe they would want to con- mature minor. A child is not capable of making any decisions sider encouraging employment instead of sports, because on their own, it appears, because the government doesn’t employment is much safer than sports. But they’re saying trust the child to make any kind of decisions. nothing about sports. Let me give an example. Is a 13-year-old deciding that he I want to move on to defning “work.” How can you defne or she wants to pick eggs of a conveyor belt of a hatchery “light work” for 14- to 15-year-olds? Just babysitting, maybe afer school — and I’ve seen that — more risky than that paper routes and stocking shelves, nothing more substantial same child deciding to take a powerful prescription med- than that? Well, government will have to prescribe what light ication for something like depression? I think not. But the work is, according to section 9 of the bill. I would encourage government might decide that a child shouldn’t pick eggs the government to do so in a principled way, rather than because farm machinery might be considered to be hazard- simply listing occupations. ous. Tat same child would be able to decide, on his or her [4:30 p.m.] own, to take prescription medication and not even inform For example, perhaps a child should not be required to their parents. lif a certain amount of weight when compared to the child’s We all know that a child who is mature for their age own weight. Tat would be a principled way to approach is more capable of handling themselves appropriately and it. Te government is going to severely restrict hazardous safely in particular environments thanks to their on-the-job work for young people. What does hazardous mean? Is the experience and training. We also know that there’s a child a whirling blade on a lawnmower hazardous? I would say it parent can’t even trust to watch a pot boil, let alone get a din- is. Should a young person be allowed to mow a lawn? If it’s ner preparation done before the parents get home. not allowed as paid, why should it be allowed as unpaid? I’ve Bringing in age-based restrictions eliminates the discre- been through that already. tion that parents use when determining whether their child is capable of certain responsibilities and instead allows the [R. Chouhan in the chair.] state to dictate when a child is ready by virtue of chronolo- gical age and not mental acuity. I disagree with that. How about working in front of a hot grill in a restaurant I want to move on and say that the NDP doesn’t trust par- or a hot cofee machine at Tim Hortons? Is that more haz- ents either. Te NDP is sort of a helicopter government, just ardous than working in an industry with some kind of a heat like a helicopter parent. process? Many young people get their introduction into the Right now a letter of permission from the parent con- workforce by standing over a grill at McDonald’s. Te defni- senting on behalf of any child aged 12 to 14 to do work is tion of these terms is going to be difcult, so I would encour- required. By this legislation, a 13-year-old wanting to pick age the minister, once again, to base his defnitions on prin- eggs, which is the example I gave, would need the permis- ciples, rather than the simple listing of certain occupations. sion of the director instead. Te director’s opinion replaces I want to move on to talk about minors for a moment and the parent’s opinion, which simply doesn’t matter anymore. 9226 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

Parents will only be able to give permission to 14- or K-to-12 education, where students deal every day with saws 15-year-olds for light work. Parents will not be able to give and hammers and drills and spinning lathes and hot things permission to any young person for any kind of work and machinery that could be dangerous, be considered as deemed hazardous by the ministry. Again, the government is hazardous work? Will schools have to obtain the approval substituting its own opinion for that of parents. of a director for each student to work in these dangerous Well, frst, if I know the work arrangements of a younger things? Te minister has given no indication of how this will person, usually you have an interview one day, and you start be handled. work the next day. It’s not like fnding a CEO of a big com- Te education system has taken on the task of developing pany, where it’s a six-month process. How long will it take sof employability skills for young students. Tis is a good to get permission of the director — a director who will now thing. I applaud this. Much of the Ministry of Education’s be besieged with similar requests from all over his or her new career education 10 to 12 centres around students being region? Since he or she is responsible for the decision, the able to acquire these sof skills. director, and perhaps a staf of one or two people, will have One constituent who is a teacher said this to me: “Te to investigate every one, because of course, they’re taking the proposed changes will, in efect, not allow students who place of the parent, and that takes time. It takes attention. wish to engage in Youth Work in Trades to start that in Te opinion of a parent is a hard one to beat. Te govern- their grade 10 year, since many will lose the ability to back- ment will have to place at least as much time and attention date hours as hidden apprentices, or not at all, because on the issue as a child’s parent would. many turn 16 in grade 11. Te changes would also impact [4:35 p.m.] work experience 12 for unpaid and paid work, as now stu- Why would the government trust the word of the director dents must wait until they are 16 — so, more than likely, more than the word of the parent? Te parent is just a human not until they are in grade 11.” being, but the director is just another human being as well. In his opinion, better mandatory safety instruction in the He or she has no supernatural knowledge or expertise. school system itself and in career education programs, as Te parents know the child intimately and know his or well as in workplaces, would have been the way to address her personal level of expertise and maturity; the director the concerns around safety, rather than the heavy hammer of doesn’t. Te parent has an interest in contacting the pro- legislation. Obviously, the Minister of Labour did not con- spective employer and talking through, in detail, what the sult with his colleague the Minister of Education when he child is going to do; the director won’t have that kind of drew up this legislation. time. Te parent has one fle on his or her desk, that of their Te Youth Work in Trades program guide defnes a own child; the director has many fles. Te parent can give a youth apprentice as someone between the ages of 14 and quick answer; the director can’t. Most importantly, the dir- 19. Tey will work in the trades. A trade can be any trade ector may be a very good and conscientious employee, but in B.C., including red seal apprenticeship programs. Many the parent has special love and afection for their own child of these trades involve work with hazardous materials and that the director doesn’t. machinery. Tink of the hazards of electric shock of an We’re replacing what should be lef to the discretion of apprenticeship in the feld of electrician. What will happen the family and replacing it with the government. Tat is a to the Youth Work in Trades program when this legislation bad trade. Tis is very typical, to me, of our government, the passes? NDP. Te government worker, to them, always knows best, In Chilliwack, we have a very big apprenticeship program and the judgment of the ordinary citizen can’t be trusted. in school district 33 that’s very successful. Every year there’s In reality, the government does not know best in this case. an apprenticeship dinner that I like to attend in which all In every way, this is demeaning to parents. It undermines sorts of young people are honoured. Tey are minors. I think parental authority, and it will result in materially worse and every one of them would be minors. Tey’re learning the much slower decisions than are taken now. trades, exhibiting every level of competence — indeed, All of these defnitions — the defnitions of light and haz- working in felds that would probably be deemed hazardous ardous work and who can do what job — will be lef to by this government. I would trust most of these young the regulations not addressed in this bill. I hate to think of people more than I would trust myself in their chosen trade. what will happen when a job that might be hazardous comes I would like the minister’s assurance that this program will up that might not be covered by the regulations. Te whole be allowed to continue. process will grind to a halt, and meanwhile, employers and [4:40 p.m.] workers will be lef in limbo. I would further point out that the Ministry of Educa- Let’s move on to education, because there are contradic- tion’s work experience program guide already allows stu- tions with existing education policy. Now, in the last few dents age 14 and younger to work. It requires employers years, under the former government, education became to give young workers a safety orientation and district staf more rightly oriented towards skill development. How is this to assess a workplace. Tese things are being taken care of going to happen unless young students in K to 12 can get already. Obviously, as I said, the Minister of Labour failed some work experience? For example, will shop class in public to consult properly with the Minister of Education when Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9227 he decided to draf this legislation. Maybe the program complete picture. Tese are just the reported cases that we guides will have to be changed, or maybe those programs have seen, but there are many cases that have gone unre- will have to be cancelled altogether. Te minister has given ported. I’m really concerned. How many other children got no indication in this regard. injured at work, and those cases were not reported? Just in general, to close, farm families — and I would Keeping that in mind, when the Minister of Labour broaden that to say any family with a business — see count- brought this change in the legislation…. I think that it’s very less advantages to having their children help out, paid or important, protecting not only the workers but also the most otherwise. Not only does it help the family fnancially, but vulnerable section of the workers. We know that when work helps the child. It develops a good work ethic. It devel- young children work, they don’t have a voice. Tey don’t ops specifc skills and talents. It helps children, for the future, have the ability to counter or even question what kind of to see what they like to do and what they’re good at, and work they are presented with. what they don’t like to do and what they’re not good at. It Tey want the jobs. I know a young kid…. I know when helps them learn to take pride in accomplishment. It builds my son started working at 16, he was so happy with the work confdence and character in them. It teaches the value of a that he was doing. He was really happy with the wages and dollar and how to save for what they want to buy, instead of the money that he was getting from that work. getting a free ride. [4:45 p.m.] Instead, this legislation is rigid. It’s cumbersome. It’s bur- A lot of times, these children, because they’re not aware eaucratic. It’s confusing. It’s ill-defned. It will replace author- of their rights, won’t talk. Tey don’t even have the know- ities of families with the authority of the state. It will not ledge about refusing unsafe work. It is very important that mean greater safety and less exploitation. No, it will mean we don’t put them in those circumstances that make these less work. It will mean poor decisions. It will mean more conditions even more vulnerable for them. So I’m very waiting, less training. It will discourage workers and discour- glad and I’m very thankful to the Minister of Labour for age employers and cause working shortages as well. bringing this up. For that reason, I probably will vote in favour of the bill Another big change — that is, having worked as a coun- as a whole, but I will probably vote against a clause or two as sellor for women escaping violence…. Te changes that the a symbolic measure to show my disapproval of the way the minister has brought in are bringing in the unpaid leave for government has approached the work of children and youth. people dealing with certain personal circumstances at home, Tank you, Mr. Speaker, for the time. whether they’re dealing with domestic violence or they’re caring for their loved ones. R. Singh: It gives me pleasure to talk on Bill 8. I really I remember taking calls from many women when I was want to thank the Minister of Labour for bringing it forward. working as a counsellor, and they were in very, very dire We know that the workers are the backbone of our com- situations. Tey knew that they had to leave those circum- munity and also of our economy. Tey need protections at stances and that they had to leave that violent relationship. work that will protect them from exploitation and also meet But many of them did not do this, because they knew that proper safety standards. they wouldn’t be able to aford to take time of work. At that I’m so happy that this bill is bringing in changes that will time, when you are leaving a difcult relationship, having job better protect children and youth from dangerous work by protection is very, very important for these women. raising the age to 16 to work without permits and adding Te changes that have been brought up, that have been tough new restrictions on allowing them to perform danger- introduced in this bill, I am sure will not only protect those ous work. It will make it easier for workers to get help when women but also protect their working rights. It is never easy their rights have been violated and provide more job protec- to leave a difcult relationship. It’s not a decision that any tion to people dealing with difcult personal circumstances, person takes lightly. But it will help people get out of danger- like those escaping domestic violence and caring for critic- ous relationships. ally ill loved ones. Also, when they are caring for their loved ones and also Tis bill will also ensure that people are paid the wages trying to protect their jobs, it’s a difcult balance to make. So they are owed. Hearing the member for Chilliwack-Kent…. with the changes that are coming with this bill, their jobs are He talked in detail about the portion on raising the age for protected. I think they would be able to put more time, more children to work. Being a mother myself, I’m always…. Def- energy, into their personal life and do the proper balance. initely, I would like my children to work, but I would be very Te third one that I would really like to mention is about concerned about what kind of work they are doing. the elimination of the self-help kits. When I frst came to I know the previous government lowered the age to work know about it, in my previous life, I was a union rep. I to 12. As my colleague from Nanaimo has just pointed out, came to know about the self-help kits. I found it was a big since then — since 2003, when the age was lowered — over deterrent for the workers to seek the help that they needed. 2,000 children under the age of 15 have claimed work- First of all, your rights have been violated, and you have related health care costs due to injuries. I think that number to fll in that self-help kit. I’ve seen that self-help kit myself, is a really big number, and that does not even give us the and it was not an easy task to do. It required a lot of time, a 9228 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 lot of energy to even fll out that form. But then to take that they were away in the summer. I happened to know, through to your own employer, against whom you have this issue…. a family member, that lawn mowers are actually a pretty dan- Tat deterred a lot of workers from even making the com- gerous tool. You can lose toes and do damage. It’s signifc- plaint. A lot of times, they did not come forward to do that. ant, if you’re not properly trained in how to use them and if So I’m really glad about the changes that are coming in that you’re not properly attired when using a lawn mower. But I aspect also. doubt very much that we are going to make it illegal for chil- Overall, I would just like to say that I’m just so happy with dren or young people to mow the family lawn and do those the introduction of Bill 8. Tis was a long time in coming. household chores. I’ve heard the minister say that that isn’t We know that for the last 15 years, there hasn’t been a full the intent, and I appreciate that. But then how do we square review of employment standards, but afer a strong consulta- that against what is going to be considered dangerous in an tion with diferent members of the community, the minister employed setting? has been able to bring these recommendations. I fully sup- I’m just cautious of the need to create regulations for reg- port them, and I really want to thank him for the changes ulations’ sake that complicate circumstances and make it dif- that he’s trying to bring in. fcult for young people to do work that they previously have done and that they do with their family to earn some money S. Cadieux: I’m pleased to take my place to speak quickly to pay for their education or whatever else it might be. So to Bill 8 and the proposed changes to the Employment I’m curious about how we’re going to defne that and put that Standards Act, of which I am mostly in favour, with only into clear terms for everyone so that people certainly can and a few caveats — generally, for more information. I’m not will abide by the law in a reasonable way. overly concerned with the changes that are being proposed. Te one piece that I want to talk a little bit more in depth In fact, with most, I am, like I say, in favour. about is the protections for workers facing personal circum- I’ll just speak quickly to the removal of the self-help kit. stances, which I’m entirely in favour of. I say: “Entirely in I actually think that’s a good move. Personally, I’m not in favour of.” But I have questions about why it’s been done the favour of them. I don’t think that they met a need for the way it’s been done. people who were most afected by the need to use them. I question why we are creating two tiers of victims in [4:50 p.m.] doing this. I wonder if that is an unconscious error that has I think it takes a fair amount of sophistication to address been made — something that just wasn’t understood — or issues like this in the workplace and a fair amount of sophist- whether it’s intentional. I question it because there were two ication even to use the self-help kit. In the reality of the types previous private members’ bills from the NDP on this same of situations that occur, I don’t think that is usually the case topic that actually included victims of sexual assault, but this with workers. I think it’s an undue barrier, and I think that’s legislation does not, unless that victim of sexual assault was a fair change to make. assaulted by an intimate partner or family member. Tat, to I think that ensuring workers are paid fairly and that tips me, is problematic. go to them, when that is the intention of the customer [4:55 p.m.] providing the tips, makes sense. I think we all expect that, It’s problematic because I can only imagine that we all here and for many of us to learn that that’s not always the case would believe that if a woman or man was raped on their actually is fairly disheartening. I think that those are reason- way home from work, they would be ever so much deserving able changes to make. as someone who faced that violence in their own home. My I’m concerned about the vagueness of the changes to pro- belief is that those victims are no less in need of time away tecting young workers. Obviously, the idea of protecting from work to attend medical appointments or, perhaps, to young workers is a good one. Obviously, any time somebody look for a new home. Because we know many sexual assault is injured at work, that’s problematic. Certainly, we don’t victims have that assault happen in their residence. want to see young people performing work that they are not Tat, to me, suggests that we are unfairly creating two trained or prepared to do in a safe way, so as a broad concept, tiers of victims here and not providing the same protections I am supportive. Te challenge, though, is the lack of clarity for people who are experiencing the same violence or have around what we’re actually saying and how that balances experienced the same violence. Tat, to me, is problematic. against the real-world realities of what people do. It’s why I’ve put a notice of amendment on the order paper, For example, some of the arguments that are being made and I do intend to introduce an amendment in committee about why this is important are that: “Well, kids aren’t stage to rectify that in the legislation. I hope that the govern- responsible.” Yet in fact, we as a society regularly entrust ment will consider that. youngsters as young as 12, with some training, to care for I think it’s important to note that it is with good intent other, younger children, which is, I would argue, one of the that the government puts forward these amendments and jobs that requires the most responsibility to do. I’m not sure has spoken to the need for this, in particular, to protect vic- that a lack of responsibility is a fair argument for why we tims and provide them with support they very much need. I need to protect children in this way. don’t believe that the domestic violence or anti-violence sec- When I was young, I mowed lawns for neighbours when tor was consulted in advance of this, or perhaps this would Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9229 have been caught sooner. But perhaps the government is and gratuities, deducting amounts from them or requiring going to see ft to consider this amendment to include sexual them to be turned over to the employer. assault victims in entirety, as the Ontario legislation does. Te workers get enhanced protections through the doub- By using the same defnitions as the Ontario legislation, we ling of the period for which they can recover owed wages could easily include it here. from six months to a year, and we certainly support that. I think with that, I will rest my remarks. I’m sure that at Some of the concern we do have, and I personally have — committee stage we’ll have an opportunity to ask some more I’ll get into my specifc situation in a minute — is with the detailed questions of the minister as it relates to damages for defnition of “light work.” What is the defnition of light children under 15 and what has led to the need to create work for those that are 14 or 15 years old? Is it babysitting, changes around protecting young workers and what exactly paper routes, stocking shelves? Is lawn mowing acceptable, his intent is in terms of defning the types of work that are or will moving a blade be classifed as “too dangerous?” appropriate for youth and how we will square that against What about working in a restaurant kitchen? Dishwashing what happens in individuals’ lives outside of a paid environ- could be acceptable, but fipping burgers in front of a hot ment, because clearly, we have to take that into considera- stove and running a fryer could perhaps be deemed too dan- tion. Certainly, safety is paramount. gerous for this age group. With that, I’ll rest my remarks for today. In this particular case, it looks like bureaucrats will decide what is light work. Te member for Delta South had men- J. Tornthwaite: I thought there was somebody from the tioned today, in his remarks about the agriculture sector, that other side that was speaking, so I wanted to pop up just certainly, one of the major concerns that have been brought before. I know there’s another person on our side that wants to our members on this side about this bill is the negative to speak to the bill. efect on agricultural workers and youth. Primarily, one of I’m going to preface my remarks, also, that I think there the main employers of youth is the agriculture sector. Tere’s is a lot to support in this bill. For those that are listening, a worry that the agriculture sector was not consulted about I’m speaking about Bill 8, Employment Standards Amend- these pending changes. ment Act, 2019. But I think that there are unintended con- We need to balance, obviously, to protect young workers sequences. Certainly, what has been mentioned before…. from being abused or not treated well, with the possibility of My colleague, the critic for Labour, from Chilliwack has denying access to good life skills and good working experi- mentioned that there are lots of details that have been lef out ence for children. Tat could include children working in a and that, obviously, during committee stage, we will be deal- family business — as I mentioned before, mowing lawns and ing with those specifc questions. shovelling snow. We need clarifcation from the minister on One of the positive things that, obviously, we support: the descriptions of what light work is. up to ten non-consecutive days of unpaid leave for workers Specifcally, the feedback that I’ve personally got is for escaping domestic violence to look for a new home, attend soccer referees. I’ve been contacted from many soccer clubs medical appointments, etc. I also support my colleague from that are very concerned about the implications for youth Surrey South, who mentioned that perhaps it was an over- referees, both boys and girls. I have letters that have been sight…. I hope it’s just an oversight. Perhaps during her dis- endorsed by the North Vancouver Football Club, the North cussion during committee stage to include an amendment Shore Girls Soccer Club, the West Vancouver Football Club, that includes all victims of sexual assault, not just those that Bowen Island, Sunshine Coast, Squamish, Whistler and are deemed assaulted through domestic violence…. Pemberton. Many of these soccer associations have stated Tere’s also the additional option for such workers to that they are very, very worried about this bill. receive up to 15 weeks of consecutive unpaid leave. We sup- I’ve been a longtime soccer mom. My daughter was also a port that. We also support the creation of unpaid job-pro- referee. I believe she was about 12 when she was a referee. I tected leave for those caring for critically ill family members actually asked her what she got paid way back then. She said that aligns with EI benefts, which allows workers to take up that it was about $5 or $6 per team, which means $12 a game. to 36 weeks to care for critically ill children and up to 16 I think they’re getting more than that now. But it defnitely weeks to care for an adult. helped them out. Certainly, it’s a good experience, getting to [5:00 p.m.] the soccer feld on time. It’s a responsibility to get ready for Other things that we think are a good idea are regulating the job market. Tey get a little bit of money that can help tips and tip pooling and protecting workers’ rights with them in their day-to-day work. respect to tips and gratuities. I have two daughters that are in When I talked to my daughter about this bill, she was very the service industry. Tey work in restaurants. I’m always a surprised that this might implicate, certainly, the leagues that big supporter of equality with regard to tipping and the tip- I’ve mentioned. She also mentioned that there were situ- ping pool, because they didn’t always start of as servers. But ations that she knew. A friend of hers who was the same age, employers may not share in the tipping pool, except when in her youth had actually worked at a restaurant to help her the employer performs the same work as workers who share mom with rent. Tis was a serious…. Tey were a vulner- in the pool, and it prohibits employers from withholding tips able family, a single mom, and the child helped because she 9230 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 wanted to. She was part-time as a waitress and helped out the exceptions in there? Tis kind of worries us, up in the with the rent. Would this bill stop her from helping out with northeast corner. the family? I don’t know. I can speak from experience. Some of my friends, when [5:05 p.m.] we were 14 or 15 years old…. You usually knew someone Getting back to the football situation, I’m going to read an whose parent owned an oil and gas service company. You email that we got from the president of the Sunshine Coast had an opportunity to go out and learn about the industry Youth Soccer Association. Certainly, it was shared by a lot by working for your friend’s dad for a couple of months in of the other associations, because they state their support the summer. Reading what…. We look under this as hazard- “for the valuable skills that the kids learn as referees and the ous industry. I mean, as soon as you drive of the highway up beneft they bring to youth sports. Tis is not an exploita- in the northeast corner, you’re in oil and gas country. You’re tion of child labour, but a real, great opportunity for young in forestry country. You are, indeed, going into, generally, a people to learn responsibility and leadership while support- hazardous area. ing efective youth sports in communities.” I really have some concerns about clipping the wings on Tey go on to say…. Tey are concerned the age is being some young people’s great opportunities to go out and make raised to 16. As I mentioned, my daughter was refereeing at some money in the summer months so that they don’t have age 12. In this district of the North Shore, “the association to be focusing on trying to work and balance school and trains and employs many youth to work as referees, and they home life throughout the rest of the year. Te same goes for start as young as 12 years old. Under this legislation, this the forest industry. I know some young people go out and would be prohibited, unless there is an exemption from the operate some equipment in the bush in the summer — of director of employment standards.” course, again, under the supervision of trained people, fol- Tis person, who is the president of the North Shore girls’ lowing all the rules within WorkSafe. soccer and who happens to be a lawyer, said: “My exper- [5:10 p.m.] ience, as an employer/lawyer, suggests exemptions will be Te same, again, goes for farmers — people that work very difcult to obtain. Another option would be to obtain for a friend’s neighbouring farm to go out to be a farm- a broad-based exemption for youth acting as referees or of- hand in the summer. A guide-outftter is another oppor- cials via an amendment to the employment standards reg- tunity. I had some friends that worked the summers in ulation.” Tere is, currently, an exemption, as he notes, for their dads’ guide-outftting area, and that is sometimes babysitters. pretty challenging work. We start looking at the defni- In conclusion, I really did want to bring the concerns from tions of what “light work” is. What becomes light work? the soccer associations on the North Shore — and, prob- What becomes hazardous work? I guess this is where there ably, the soccer associations everywhere in British Columbia are lots of concerns that I have. — about the possibility of referees not being able to work. My colleague for North Vancouver–Seymour had men- Tey’re being given valuable lifetime skills, getting ready for tioned about some of the communications with the school employment and getting a little bit of cash to help them out district. School districts around the province — a lot of them in their day-to-day work, in between school. I really think are doing some cutting-edge stuf around trades and pro- this is something that should be considered as an amend- moting young people to get into trades. ment, perhaps, or at least a consideration from the minister My school district, school district 60, is no diferent. when we come into committee stage. One of the projects they have is called Project Heavy Duty. Project Heavy Duty is a program ofered by school district D. Davies: I rise today to speak about Bill 8. I’m not going 60, where approximately 16 high school students have the to take too much time. I know that the Minister of Labour is opportunity to learn about and to operate many kinds of ready to close it of, so I promise I’ll be under two hours. heavy equipment under the close supervision of qualifed Tere are a couple things that I do want to bring up. I’m operators. Students receive hands-on training with heavy not going to talk about all the merits. Tere are some mer- equipment such as crawlers, dozers, excavators, graders, its in this bill. As we have heard, some of my colleagues have rock trucks and a variety of logging equipment on the job spoken about these. But there are some questions that have site. been raised, certainly — from people up in my riding and As you can imagine, this is concerning for me and con- folks that I’ve interacted with over the past couple of weeks, cerning for folks that are planning to go into this program. Is when I was back in the riding — around this bill and some of this going to be afected by this legislation? We all know that the concerns and issues, not much diferent than what, again, there is a shortage of tradespeople in this province. Tese my colleagues have been talking about. school districts, many school districts across the province, Some of the concerns, though, that we have around have done some incredible work partnering with industry, this legislation are, of course, as we’ve heard, around what partnering with the local colleges and post-secondary insti- “hazardous work” is. How does that roll out? What is that tutions to get young people interested in the trades starting going to look like? Who’s going to defne that? What are as young as 14 years old, so that we can be sure that we do have tradespeople moving into the future. Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9231

I’m not going to belabour this debate too much longer. Yes, bureaucracy…. Sometimes they sit down, and they I do echo a lot of the comments that my colleagues have put some things together. Even with consultation, things get made here. A lot of it comes around, again. What is hazard- missed out. I would encourage all members of this House to ous? How is that going to be defned? What does that ft in? send me your suggestions on what you think. In rural B.C., We’ve talked a lot about cookie-cutter policies. I ofen worry what do you think should be considered for children who are that what might be good for the Lower Mainland might not under 15, that you consider is light work, that you consider necessarily be good for the northeast or the northwest or the will protect their health and safety? Interior or the Kootenays, for that matter. Tere are difer- We have shown that we listen, and we will look into all ent trades. Young people do have diferent opportunities in those suggestions that will come forward. Because at the end the northeast when it comes to jobs, when it comes to work of the day, it is about our children’s health and safety and experience, than they do in other parts of the province. having that balance to make sure that they are still able to I want to make sure that these points are brought forward go out and make pocket money, to go out and help on their and that they’re going to be discussed a great deal. So I am mom and dad’s farm, at their grocery store, to deliver pizza. looking forward to committee stage. Again, there are a lot of I don’t know whether that is going to be part of that or not. merits to this bill. I do have concerns around hiring children Tose are some of the areas that we need to look at how in the hazardous industry and the hazardous work part of we deal with that issue, keeping in mind the main issue this Bill 8. I do look forward to bringing it into the commit- here is our children’s health and safety. We need to give tee stage where we can discuss it a bit more. them time to grow, to develop and to become productive With that, I’ll take my place. citizens, because they will be the leaders of our future who will run this country. Many of them will come here, and we Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the minister want to make sure that they have all the opportunities of closes the debate. the world so that they grow to their full potential, without hurting themselves. Hon. H. Bains: I really want to say thank you to all of I think that’s basically what I’m saying. I appreciate every- the members who spoke on this bill. I think all of them one taking time to speak on this very, very important bill. I were very thoughtful and constructive. I made some notes. listened to the member for Surrey South as well. Tere are Tey identifed certain areas. I think that largely, if I haven’t concerns, and I have made notes of those. I’m really, really missed much, it was around the employment of children and happy that we are here and getting good support. youth. I have listened, and I know, as is being said, that it is With that, I would say that now I move second reading of something that we need to grapple with. Tere are certain Bill 8. things that are very obvious. Tere are certain things that are very obvious on the other end. But then there are things in Motion approved. between, and I get that. Te only thing that I will say is that we’re not reinventing Hon. H. Bains: I move that the bill be referred to a Com- the wheel. Te whole world is ahead of us in that area. Te mittee of the Whole House to be considered at the next sit- United Nations, International Labour Organization and all ting of the House afer today. other Canadian jurisdictions are already there. Tey have already defned what dangerous work is, and what light work Bill 8, Employment Standards Amendment Act, 2019, is. Of course, every province has diferent jobs, and they have read a second time and referred to a Committee of the diferent challenges. Again, within B.C., as the member pre- Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the viously said, we have a diferent situation, as far as the jobs House afer today. are concerned, in the Lower Mainland versus rural British Columbia. Hon. D. Eby: I call second reading of Bill 30, Labour Rela- [5:15 p.m.] tions Code Amendment Act, 2019. My take on this and my response to all of this is that we will be consulting. You’ve seen that we consulted when we BILL 30 — LABOUR RELATIONS CODE put this bill together. We put it out there for people’s input, AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 the stakeholders’ input. We received, like I said, 1,200 pres- entations on the area that we asked their input for. Almost Hon. H. Bains: It is the second time that I’m standing in everyone agreed on one thing: that we must protect our chil- this House in the last couple of hours to talk about chan- dren’s health and safety. ging the lives of working people in British Columbia for I think members that have spoken agree on that one. All the better. members have agreed on that. It’s just how do we actually We have just fnished second reading of the Employment implement these changes that we are talking about? I would Standards Act changes, Bill 8, that will give much, much bet- actually welcome the discussions, and I welcome any sugges- ter protection to those who have no beneft of unions to sup- tions that you may have. port them when they feel that their rights have been violated; 9232 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 or when they feel that they are not getting the wages that We’re talking about the gravity of changes that we talk about they are entitled to; or when their health and safety is not here, the gravity of that bill. A whole generation of children looked afer, whether there’s abuse or exploitation. came in, in kindergarten, graduated from high school afer Bill 8 talked about all that and covered all those areas. I’m 12 years, 13 years, without the support and resources that so happy and thankful to all the members that spoke on that were needed. Tey were taken away. Te Supreme Court of bill and the good support that I’ve received here, and I want Canada said: “Go make them whole.” But that generation to thank you. will never have that opportunity ever again. Tat’s how we Now we’re moving on to Bill 30, the Labour Relations must take these bills: when we are passing these bills, what Code Amendment Act, 2019. I move that Bill 30 be read a are the implications? second time now. We believe, this government believes, that growing a sus- As Minister of Labour, my mandate includes a commit- tainable economy for people is built upon a strong founda- ment to review the labour relations code to ensure work- tion of fair labour laws for workers and businesses. Accord- places support a growing, sustainable economy with fair laws ingly, in February 2018, I appointed a three-person expert for workers and businesses. Te labour relations code, com- panel of special advisers to review the code, to hear from monly known as the code, is the primary labour relations labour, businesses, industry, individual people and legal pro- legislation in B.C. It governs a wide range of labour relations fessionals about what long-overdue changes needed to be matters. made to support a growing, sustainable economy and pro- [5:20 p.m.] mote harmonious and stable labour relations. Tat was the Te labour code covers the union environment of employ- mandate. ers and unions. It covers a whole variety of areas that govern Te panel was chaired by Michael Fleming, a mediator in that area. Te topics it includes: the certifcation of and arbitrator, a former associate chair of the Labour Rela- employees to be represented by a union, collective bargain- tions Board. Two labour and employment lawyers rounded ing procedure, rules for strikes and lockouts, the mainten- out the panel, with Sandra Banister representing union ance of essential services during labour disputes, mediation interests and Barry Dong sitting on behalf of the employers’ and arbitration procedures, as well as the establishment of interests. Te panel undertook public consultation, during the Labour Relations Board. which it received hundreds of submissions from stakehold- B.C.’s code has a long and storied history. Emerging in ers and individuals. the early 1970s under the government of Dave Barrett, the Late last summer my ministry received the panel’s report. basic structure and fundamental principles of the code were Te report includes 29 recommendations focused on designed to achieve a calmer and more constructive indus- improving the fairness and efectiveness of our labour rela- trial relations climate. In the decades that followed, various tions system. Twenty-two of those recommendations spe- governments have amended the code. However, the basic cifcally call for amendments to the code. structure and fundamental principles have endured and, in [5:25 p.m.] fact, have been replicated in jurisdictions across the country. I should note, however, that while the recommendations Te last meaningful and comprehensive review of the propose important improvements, they do not call for code was undertaken in the early 1990s. Te last substantive changes to that basic structure that was set of principles amendments to the code were introduced by the previous established in the early 1970s. Although the panel recog- government in 2001 and 2002 and, I might add, with no nized the signifcance of the socioeconomic changes that public consultation — none whatsoever. Someone decided have occurred over the past several decades, it did not ulti- to sit behind his or her desk, appointed by the government, mately recommend changes to the broad framework of the rewrote the code — the changes that they wished to imple- code that was established some 45 years ago and which ment, as directed by the then government — and came down remains as a labour relations model found throughout and changed that code. Because they had a big, big majority Canada. Tis model is characterized by features such as in this House, hardly much debate took place in this House exclusive representation rights granted to unions based on either. Tat’s not how we operate. the majoritarian principle and use of controlled strike or I want to say that since that time, workers have seen their lockout as a primary means as dispute resolution. rights and protections eroded. Te previous government tore We made the report public in October 2018 and then up collective agreements for workers in health care and edu- heard from employers, unions and individuals who wished cation. Tey treated teachers with contempt and fought them to comment on the report and recommendations. Bill 30 is all the way to the Supreme Court, instead of treating teachers a result of this extensive consultation and review process. with respect and investing in our children. Just think about Ultimately, the amendments to the code made by Bill 30 fol- that. It took 14 years for teachers…. From the day that Bill 94 low very closely the recommendations of the review panel. I was passed and Bill 29 was passed in this House, it took 14 would like to take a few minutes now to discuss what I view years for the Supreme Court of Canada to rule and tell that as some of the key signifcant features of the bill. government that their action was illegal and to go fx it. First, with respect to the process for gaining union cer- Also, it’s not just the labour law that we’re talking about. tifcation, Bill 30 leaves in place the existing requirement Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9233 for a mandatory secret ballot vote among employees. Tis rights when contracts for certain specifc services are re- decision follows the advice of the majority of the review tendered and a new employer takes over. panel. However, the panel concluded that the secret ballot Currently when contracts are re-tendered, the existing vote can only be an efective mechanism for employee choice collective agreement ends and workers who have built up if the code properly prevents employers from engaging in fair wages and job security over years of hard work see them unfair labour practices. I agree with that assessment, which stripped away. Te employees must ofen reapply for their is why Bill 30 adopts the panel’s other recommendations to jobs, the union is required to reorganize the workforce, and a improve meaningful employee access to certifcation. new collective agreement must be renegotiated with the new Tere’s one basic fundamental that should guide us in this employer. Te toll this takes on employees can be immense particular area. In Canada, we are a First World country. In and is fundamentally unfair. In the health sector, we know it Canada 2019, I want to make it clear that every worker in can ofen disrupt the continuity of care provided to so many Canada, in British Columbia, has a constitutional right to British Columbians. join a union of their choice without the interference of their Tis government has recently taken steps to repeal Bills employer. Tat’s the guiding principle of why this is what we 29 and 94, which we know led to an enormous amount of are doing. contracting out of non-clinical services across health care. Now, there is always dispute on how we come about that. Te contract fipping and turmoil on workers, as well as on Card check is one area, and then the two steps that are being many care facility clients and their families, that resulted suggested here is another area, another way of doing it. But from those bills were unprecedented. again, what happened during that period of time is what we’re trying to address, and the panel was very, very clear [J. Isaacs in the chair.] that there should be no interference. And if there’s interfer- ence, they’re saying there will be consequences. Tat’s why On this particular one, we’ve seen that not only the work- they suggested that there should be reduced time between ers lose protection under the current provisions of the code, certifcation and application of the secret ballot vote among where there’s no protection from contract fipping. It’s the employees. We’re moving from ten days to fve business days. people that they service in health care. Many times those are Tis shorter timeline will reduce the opportunity for undue seniors, very vulnerable patients. Many times, those workers interference, in the wishes of employees. are their only family. It has a very, very traumatic efect on Bill 30 also improves access to certifcation by reversing those patients as well as the workers. changes made in 2002 which efectively allow employers to I’m really proud today that we are introducing changes engage in anti-union campaigns. Te review panel advised that will provide much-needed stability and certainty for so that a return to pre-2002 provisions respecting employer many vulnerable workers around the province, not just in communication is consistent with other Canadian provinces health care but also the workers providing building cleaning, and strikes a more appropriate balance between employers’ security, bus transportation and food services. In all of these speech and the prevention of undue interference with areas, unionized workers are routinely impacted by contract employee choice. fipping, and I’m pleased that they will be aforded the pro- Another important change that will help ensure fair tection that they deserve. We are ensuring that the workers employee access to collective bargaining are the improve- who have built up fair wages and job security over years of ments made to the language in the code authorizing remedi- hard work don’t see those stripped away. al certifcation. Remedial certifcation allows the Labour One of the concerns raised by the review panel was that, Relations Board to order a union certifcation as a remedy to upon hearing of government’s plans to amend this suc- an employer’s illegal behaviour, also called an unfair labour cessorship provisions of the code, certain companies might practice. It is an important and efective deterrent against rush to fip those contracts for the sole purpose of under- employer interference in employee choice. Bill 30 adopts the mining existing union rights held by employees before new panel’s proposal to amend the provision in a way that it will provisions come into force. Fortunately, I’m not aware that provide the board wider discretion to assess and remedy the such actions have taken place over the past several months, consequences of the interference with employees’ choice. but to be fair to all afected parties, the successorship amend- Tose are some of the key changes in this bill that will ments in this bill will come into force as of the date of the help ensure employees can freely choose whether they wish frst reading in this House, when the details of these pro- to exercise their right to be represented by a union. posed changes were made public. Te rest of the amend- [5:30 p.m.] ments come into efect on royal assent. Another important feature of Bill 30 is the additional pro- Tose are some of the major highlights of Bill 30 that I tection it provides to unionized employees who are subject wanted to raise here today. Tere are many other aspects to to the instability and vulnerability caused by the contract this bill which will have a positive impact on the province’s re-tendering, sometimes known as contract fipping. Te labour relations system. For example, Bill 30 provides for amendments to the successorship provisions of the code will more regular, transparent review of the labour relations extend existing union certifcation and collective agreement code. It makes improvements to the provisions governing 9234 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 union raids. It improves dispute resolution and mediation J. Martin: Tank you to the minister for the overview of processes to facilitate increased cooperation, cooperative Bill 30, Labour Relations Code Amendment Act. labour management relations and successful collective I know all of us in this House support the rights of work- agreement negotiations. I know that the signifcant changes ers to come together and to bargain in good faith. Just as in in this bill will be expedited. Te arbitration provisions of the the previous legislation, we all support the rights of workers code have received very positive responses from both unions to enjoy the safest of conditions. It’s a fundamental value of and employers. our society. It’s not a partisan issue. It’s not something that Finally, Bill 30 also amends the essential services provi- should be discussed in partisan political terms. sions of the code by removing this reference to education- However, on this side of the House, we do want to be cer- al programs. Te insertion of education programs into the tain that the rules that are being set around this right are bal- code’s essential service provisions proved to be an inefect- anced. One of the kinds of casualties of the history, the leg- ive, if not counterproductive, strategy by the previous gov- acy, of politics in British Columbia — and I’m not saying this ernment. is judgmental one way or the other — is that when we do [5:35 p.m.] have changes of governments, we tend to see some signifc- I can tell you that I think some of those changes that ant changes back and forth with a number of the issues that were put in place in 2003 were the previous government’s do afect workers and such. ongoing war with the teachers. I think the time has come In the big picture, this is problematic, because it sends a that we move on to the new era of labour relations in this wrong message about the stability of the workforce in British province. We respect workers. We value their work. We Columbia. And we know how tense things have been at cer- believe it is the employer and employee working togeth- tain points in time, regardless of who’s been in government. er that creates jobs. Working together, they grow our eco- We’ve always had a very vigorous, full-on debate about nomy. Working together, they can be more productive and the labour code, labour rights in British Columbia. With have much safer workplaces. the recent change in government in British Columbia, it Tat’s the whole intent behind the labour code. Tat was was inevitable that we’d be discussing this sooner rather the whole intent behind the previous bill that we have just than later. debated in this House. Here we are with the second reading of Bill 30. We want to Further, the review panel confrmed that removing educa- note that it’s important that the rules that are going to come tional programs from the essential services provision is more out of this legislation, should it pass, need to set a fair play- consistent with the nature and purpose of the provisions, ing feld, both for workers and for employers. Tere are no other jurisdictions and with the decisions of the Supreme good guys or bad guys in this situation. We’re all British Col- Court of Canada. umbians, and we’ve all got the bigger interests at stake here. To conclude, all of the changes proposed in Bill 30 will [5:40 p.m.] improve and modernize the labour relations code. Workers When we have problems with workers and employers, in this country have a constitutional right to collective bar- we tend to have problems in the province for many. Te gaining, and the labour relations code is the statute that rights of workers to unionize as well as the rights of employ- ensures that the rights can be exercised in a peaceful and ers to inform workers about the impact that unionization productive manner. Bill 30 will further that objective by could have on the workplace need to be balanced. Abuse and improving the fairness and functioning of the province’s intimidation on either side are absolutely unacceptable, and labour relations system to the beneft of the workers, there needs to be some very signifcant measures in place to employers and the economy as a whole. ensure, as the minister said, that any worker that wants to As a fnal note, I wish to thank the three members of unionize has a right to do so and any worker who doesn’t the Labour Relations Code Review Panel for the work they want to unionize also has a right to do so. undertook and for the very thoughtful and expert analysis Tat’s where we’re seeing something that is a little bit and recommendations they provided. I’m also grateful to all problematic. We’ve got a couple of instances with the present the workers, unions, employers — the parties who live and government, particularly with the community beneft agree- breathe the code every day — who participated in the review ments and with the low-wage redress in the community care and provided valuable input to ensure that the code remains service, where there is a series of measures underway to relevant and efective in the context of our ever-changing compel people to unionize if they want to continue to be economy. employed and to ply their trade in this province. Tat’s prob- I look forward to further debate on this bill, and I am lematic, and we need to deal with that. hoping that we’ll get very good support. I know there will Generally speaking, there’s much in the legislation to be be a good debate, afer I sit down, from the members on supportive about. Te labour situation, the working situ- this, and I encourage them to stand up and speak. With ation, is always changing, and the profle of a worker and that, I take my seat. a worksite and an employer are very diferent today than they were 25 years ago. Tat’s going to continue, as we see such drastic revisions of what a work week looks like and Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9235 what a commute looks like and the conditions that people level playing feld. I think it was very much a good day when work in — many working from home, telecommuting, many we could all rest assured that it was going to remain in place. working short-term contracts as a consultant from one gig to Tere are other pieces to the bill that do bring up some another. similar concerns about balance, though. For instance, the A lot of the understanding and the acceptance that we had bill seeks to have the timeline for a certifcation vote — of what a workplace and what a relationship between a work- that exercise of a worker’s democratic rights — from ten er and an employer looked like in the past is no longer par- days down to fve business days. Rather than restoring ticularly relevant. So it’s incumbent on all of us to be fex- fairness, this tilts the playing feld, certainly, in favour of ible and to see what’s coming down the pike so that we can those seeking unionization. respond, ideally, before we get into much of a problem. Tey know that a certifcation is coming way before the Tere is, as I say, a considerable number of sections in the beginning of the clock for those fve days. Tey’ve been in legislation — happy to support and believe in what they’re communication with employees about unionization well trying to accomplish. But as an ofcial opposition, we do before that happened. So by having a mere fve days between have concerns about balance, and we have some concerns application and the vote for certifcation, employers have a about some of the specifc changes that are being put for- very compressed time frame to engage with employees about ward. I’m troubled by a piece of legislation that lacks specif- the impact that unionization may have on the workplace. ics and lacks details in so many places, much like the previ- For instance, one big problem…. Tis all but eliminates ous Bill 8 that we just dealt with. mail-in votes, which for some worksites is going to be prob- Ironically, the easiest part of this bill to support is some- lematic. But it’s a barrier to open, two-way, honest debate. thing that, mercifully, isn’t even in it anymore. A wide cross- Again, it tilts in favour of unionization with the powers section of British Columbians were very concerned that an handed to the Labour Relations Board. ideological government was set to scrap the secret ballot in Te minister, through this bill, seeks to provide that certifying a union. Te secret ballot is a hallmark of the body with a broader ability and more discretion to impose democracy, and it underpins every democratic institution union certifcation when an employer is found to have that we know of. To fippantly want to just simply scrap unduly interfered with the certifcation process. Okay, I someone’s right to a secret ballot and deny them the right understand making the case. But where’s the balance? to be in a private place — just like when we go to cast our Tere’s nothing in the legislation — there are no powers — votes at municipal, federal, provincial elections…. To cast to change the outcomes of employee votes if the union has that aside was very problematic. been found to have broken the rules in a certifcation pro- I certainly want to thank the members of the panel who cess or to have acted in an undue manner. So this is, again, — majority decision — opted to maintain the secret ballot, tilted. It’s unbalanced. It’s also unfair. In some extreme and a big hat tip to my three colleagues in the Green Party cases, it could even be dangerous as it risks throwing out who basically held their ground. Te government ended the democratic wishes of workers. up doing the right thing and wisely retreated on this very Te same unfairness is at the heart of changes proposed contentious issue. to the ability to communicate for both unions and employ- Te message came through loud and clear. Tere was no ers. Te way that an employer can communicate is being real advantage to the scrapping of the secret ballot, oth- redefned in a fairly restrictive manner. er than to some of the traditional unions for government’s Employers currently have the right to communicate with plans to return to a card-check system, which opens the employees with the freedom to express views on any matter, door to intimidation, to abuse, and certainly to, if noth- providing that the person does not use intimidation or coer- ing else, subliminal peer pressure. We all know that people cion of any form — as well there should be a restriction. behave very diferently in private than they do in pub- Tat’s a pretty solid interpretation of the freedom of expres- lic. People will say things publicly to a pollster and then sion that we’re all entitled to. But this legislation aims to do something very, very diferent when they’re anonym- change this to having “the freedom to communicate to an ous and they’re in private. For people to be unduly infu- employee a statement of fact or opinion reasonably held with enced, or in some cases, even feeling physically intimid- respect to the employer’s business.” It’s a world of diference, ated or emotionally intimidated is something that never and that’s quite restrictive. should have gotten as far as it did. At the same time, the minister is pushing for an expan- [5:45 p.m.] sion of how unions can communicate on the picket line. At the end of the day, the Minister of Labour and his staf, Picketers can now hand out leafets. Te concern this however the process came about, ensured that the democrat- raises is one of potential intimidation of those that are ic rights of workers to choose or reject membership in a uni- crossing. Tey can no longer just walk by, through or on continue to be protected. Tere is a legitimate, fair and around picketers but now must be forced to engage under time-honoured system in place that does work and will con- the guise of receiving a pamphlet. Tere’s a risk that this tinue to work. Te secret ballot ensures that proper balance could be — I’m not saying it’s going to be, but there is in the protection of workers and employers, and it creates a a risk — used to stall or to pressure or to even bully 9236 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 someone out of entering a particular location. Signifc- his handpicked panel to review and make recommendations antly, employers have no corresponding right to similarly around this particular area. Tey suggested a major change hand out pamphlets at that particular scene. to these open borders, when one union could try to go take A few other things. Te bill also has the same challenge over another, and the minister has not accepted the recom- we’ve seen in so many other pieces of legislation: new powers mendation. Tey wanted it moved from every year to once created for the minister, with details to come, regulations to every three years, which would place the raid period at what come at a later point in time. We’re seeing an awful lot of that is normally the last year of a collective agreement. Tere are in this particular legislative session. exceptions to that, of course. Tis was rejected by the minis- One area…. Te bill seeks to extend successorship in a ter, and open periods will now come every year afer the frst number of sectors, including building cleaning, security, bus contract is renewed. transportation, food, non-clinical services in the health sec- Tis speaks to problems with regard to stability. Certainly, tor. I’m sure it’s just simply a coincidence that these seem one doesn’t have to be too imaginative to contemplate scen- to be very NDP-friendly sectors, but I digress. One of the arios where there are still several months, maybe two years troubling things here, though, is the fact that these new sec- or more, on an existing contract. And if there’s been a suc- tors can simply be added by order-in-council. cessful raid, all of a sudden, the existing collective agreement [5:50 p.m.] is not necessarily the law of the land anymore, and a new Successorship could be imposed on an industry, no con- agreement can be ushered in. So that’s problematic. sultation, certainly no debate in this House, no public oppor- Tere are other pieces in here that are worthy of exploring tunity for an informed conversation. Industries do have the further in third reading at the committee stage. Tere might right to be concerned, particularly the construction industry. be issues around, basically, moving education away from Right now this building sector is the one industry being being an essential service in B.C. I mean, that is certainly singled out for changes in the legislation. Tere’s something a complex one. But we’ve all gone through way too much very specifc going on with construction that is not applying for way too long in terms of problems in the education sec- to other sectors. Now, every sector, I guess, at the end of tor. We’ve seen too many arbitrator-imposed contracts. Con- the day, we can make the case, is unique and must be dealt tracts have to be ushered in under the government, an end to with uniquely. But we’re seeing something that suggests we negotiated settlements delivered by diferent governments. may have some problems down the road with this. When it On this side of the House, we believe that the key word comes to unionization rates, the private craf unions in the here is “balance.” We need a balanced approach that is construction sector have been unable to compete, either with respectful to workers, that is respectful to employers and is a non-union workplaces or with the large wall-to-wall unions successful approach for labour relations. It works for work- that represent so many construction workers in B.C. ers. It works for employers. It works for the province and Te sector has been singled out with a change in the everybody in it. I, for one, look forward to ensuring the months when unions can try to raid a company, a process conversation continues with an eye toward ensuring that we for changing or replacing union representation. Tis process have a balance when we do get to the committee stage. has been controlled by limiting such raids to two particular With that, I thank you for my time. months — right now it’s September and October — depend- [5:55 p.m.] ing what time a contract is signed, the seventh and eighth months. But now the bill will mandate that July and August A. Weaver: It gives me great pleasure to rise and take my are the months for raiding for the construction sector. place in the debates on second reading of Bill 30, Labour Wow, what a coincidence. Tese are the busiest, most Relations Code Amendment Act, 2019. important months for construction. Tis is when we get the Ending the pendulum swings that have defned labour extra sunlight, the longer days, the ideal weather conditions policy for the past 30 years or so in British Columbia has for construction, less project-delaying circumstances — an been a priority for the B.C. Greens. Te proposed amend- opportunity to get the job done quickly, on budget, on time. ments to the labour relations code are, in our view, a step We see that moving the raid periods to the summer for con- forward in the right direction — a step forward to reaching struction makes no sense economically, unless it’s a move balance that’s required, while also enhancing the important to punish or inhibit a traditionally free enterprise group of protection for workers. employers, who make up a huge, huge component of this British Columbians deserve to expect certainty and sta- particular sector. bility in labour policy. Tat is precisely what our caucus has We run the risk of hiking costs and delaying projects, advocated for all along. For the past 30 years, labour policy such as condo developments, apartment buildings, residen- in B.C. has been defned by pendulum swings between Lib- tial homes. Tis certainly will not do anything toward the eral and NDP governments. Trough our consultation with ofen-stated motto of this government — that of making life government, we made it clear that progressive changes are more afordable for British Columbians. In fact, it will go in needed to protect workers through moderate, evidence- the other direction. based policy adjustments. We were thrilled and delighted to It’s a disappointment that the minister chose to ignore work with government to move that forward. Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9237

Te basic starting point for this was the expert panel check is about 9 percent higher than under a secret ballot. review that government commissioned. Tat panel made Again, you can imagine…. balanced and thoughtful recommendations on updating the [6:00 p.m.] labour code that are refected in this legislation. We con- While we hear stories, ofen, about how the employer has veyed to government that we support the recommendations intimidated workers…. It’s true. No doubt, it’s true. Tere are of the expert panel in their entirety. lots of examples, and these have been brought to me. Tere One of the things that the expert panel talked about was are examples of shenanigans that have gone on as certifca- the secret ballot. Retaining the secret ballot while shortening tion drives start. We start to have a bunch of new employees the time frame for a vote from ten to fve business days and hired who vote against it. Tere are all sorts of shenanigans enacting stronger protections against employer interference, that have gone on, and I appreciate that. At the same time, in our view, is a reasonable path forward to maintain balance I’ve also been conveyed stories of intimidation to actually in the workplace and to ensure that workers are protected as sign cards as well. So it’s actually a good thing, I think. they exercise their choice as to whether or not they wish to Te fair compromise we’ve got here is where we shorten unionize. the time frame, which mitigates the ability of employers to We support the other signifcant provisions in this legis- interfere in a certifcation drive or a secret ballot but at the lation as well. Tey take important steps forward to better same time ensures that workers have the right to express protect workers and to ensure balance in the workplaces. Te themselves free from external infuence as they mark an X. changes we’re seeing here include extending successorship Te panel also noted that secret ballots are integral to our provisions to protect workers in a number of sectors — I’ll democratic political system. Tey also recognize, as I do, that expand on that later — reducing the disruption caused by certifcation votes take place in the context of power imbal- frequent raids by modifying the open periods, and remov- ances between employers and workers. So protections are ing education as an essential service — although that, too, I’ll necessary, as I noted, to ensure the vote is conducted in a fair come to later. way and employees are able to exercise their choice to join a Let’s go back to what the bill does. I’ll start with union cer- union, or not — from all interference. tifcation to provide some context. Te panel found, in the majority decision…. It wasn’t Te bill retains a secret ballot while making a number of unanimous; it was 2 to 1. Te majority decision was that changes to strengthen the regime to ensure that the votes the secret ballot “is the most consistent with our democratic take place in an environment free from interference. Te key norms, protects the fundamental right of freedom of associ- elements of this regime are canvassed below. ation and choice.” Tose are the words of the panel. Retains a secret ballot. One of the most contentious issues Te panel said that it’s important to keep the secret ballot, in labour relations over the past three decades has been pre- paired with updates to the code that “efectively limit and cisely that — retention of the secret ballot. As the panel fully remediate unlawful interference,” and that ultimately is noted, there have been four swings on the code on this issue. why we supported retention of the secret ballot. Hopefully, Basically, every time government switches from one to the as we move forward, we recognize that this is not what other, the secret ballot comes or gets taken out. Ending these everyone wanted and that there are those in the union move- pendulum swings, for us, was critical. A reason why that’s ment who still, and continue to, pressure for a card-check important is that if you start to have these pendulum swings, certifcation. all sorts of other things start to change as well. We hope that the balance here is such that if government Now, I note that not everybody is pleased that the secret were to switch, we might actually collectively agree that this ballot remains. We know that the overwhelming majority of labour code can preserve, and that would preserve stability British Columbians support the secret ballot. We know — in labour in British Columbia, which I think would be a and I know from the exchanges of emails, letters and phone good thing. calls and the conversations I’ve had — that a large number, Te bill strengthens rules to restrict what is lawful com- if not the majority, of union workers actually support the munication during an organizing drive or certifcation secret ballot as well, including some leaders in the feld. application through repealing and replacing section 8 of the We know that the issue of a secret ballot is one that’s very act. Te current section establishes a broad right for employ- easy to defend. But in that context, we also recognize that ers to communicate as long as they do not use intimidation there have been examples, particularly with the extended or coercion, and therein lies the difculty. Tere is process, time of ten days, of employer interference and intimidation. but actually determining what is viewed as intimidation or Tis is why we felt that it’s important to retain a secret ballot coercion can be somewhat difcult and requires some addi- while supporting the recommendations of the panel to do so, tional oversight. as well as to support recommendations to shorten the time. What’s happening now, of course, is that these words are Clearly, I recognize that certain of the union leadership are being replaced with narrower language recommended by the really in favour of the secret ballot because, for example, we panel, allowing persons to communicate “a statement of fact know that as reported by the panel, the success rate in card or opinion reasonably held.” Tat’s important. We don’t want to limit the ability of free speech or the conveyance of facts 9238 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 and opinions that are reasonable. However, intimidation tac- viously, the board had to determine that the union would tics like, “If you vote for this, you’re going to be fred,” or likely have obtained the support it needed if not for the pro- intimidation tactics whereby, in a workforce of maybe eight hibited act. Tat’s a very difcult test. people in the place, all of a sudden nine temporary for- How can you say…? Te employer does something — let’s eign workers show up, and suddenly you’re outnumbered suppose, hypothetically — through messaging and commu- there…. Tese kinds of things, we believe, are actually forms nication that unduly infuenced people. Te union would of undermining the democratic process of allowing indi- have to prove to the Labour Relations Board that this act, viduals to unionize. this form of communication, if it had not occurred, would Te change was a recommendation of the panel as part otherwise have allowed the union process to go through. of their recommendation on restricting employer com- Tat’s a difcult bar to set. I, again, don’t believe that that’s munication with employees during organization, so we’re a very big stick at all. In fact, frankly, I think it’s not even a pleased that government has adopted that. As I noted, cur- twig. Tat’s, basically, not very prohibitive at all. rently the language in the code allows broader employ- Again, we are pleased that the threshold required for ee communications during an organizing drive or certi- remedial certifcation has been lowered. Te board simply fcation application in every other Canadian jurisdiction. has to be satisfed that the prohibited act did occur and that Again, this is something that we believe is not balanced, it’s just and equitable to order remedial certifcation — a fair and what is happening in this legislation is that balance is process, as recommended by the panel. restored in British Columbia. As I mentioned, the bill also shortens the requirements for Te pendulum is not swinging, and this is what I am most the time between an application for union certifcation and pleased about. I don’t view this as a pendulum swinging from an employee vote. It was ten days. Now it’s going to move to the far right to the far lef yet again. I view this as the pendu- fve business days. Five business days. Basically, it has to hap- lum stopping in the middle in a balanced fashion to ensure pen in one week. It also specifes that mail votes can only be that labour policy changes moving forward are ones that conducted if agreed by both the employer and the union and refect the importance of protecting the workers’ rights to the board is satisfed that exceptional circumstances exist to unionize as well as to ensure that the employer has a chance require a mail-in vote. to convey information in a manner that’s factual as opposed Again, both these changes were recommended by the pan- to framed in intimidation. el. Te shorter time frame limits the opportunity for improp- Tis change, actually, that’s happening returns the code er interference while permitting sufcient time to arrange to the pre-2002 language in some sense. In the words of the vote. It also allows employees time, in a protected envir- the panel: “Tis would be consistent with virtually all other onment, to decide whether or not to join said union. Canadian jurisdictions and strikes the appropriate balance Te change actually aligns British Columbia more con- between employer speech and the prevention of undue inter- sistently with other jurisdictions in Canada, most of which ference with employee choice.” have time limits of fve business days or seven business [6:05 p.m.] days. Ontario recently made the change to fve days, Te bill also provides the Labour Relations Board with excluding holidays and weekends, which is, in essence, fve broader discretion to impose union certifcation when an business days. employer is found to have unduly interfered with the certi- To the issue of successorship. Let’s start with what the bill fcation process. Tat, too, is something we’re proud to sup- does. Te bill now extends the issue of successorship pro- port, because, again, of the threat of the big stick. You never tection to re-tendering of service contracts in specifc areas want to use the big stick. Te big stick is something that you or future areas that may be prescribed by regulation. Tese have on the side that you hope to never use. But if there is no include building, cleaning, janitorial services, security ser- stick, ofen people can move forward, recognizing there are vices, bus transportation services, non-clinical services in no consequences for their behaviour. But now there are such the health care sector and food services. consequences. Tis goes slightly beyond what the panel recommended. Combined with the shorter time period, retention of the Te panel recommended successorship protections to most secret ballot, the improved regulations in terms of employer of these sectors, and government also added the food ser- communications as well as the ability of the Labour Rela- vices outside of the health care sector, in addition to the pan- tions Board to step in if the employer is unduly infuencing el’s recommendation. We support that. the certifcation process, we think this strikes a fair balance A very real example you might imagine is at YVR, Van- — a balance articulated by the committee, brought forward couver International Airport. When you have service work- by government — and hopefully, we can unanimously sup- ers in the food sector being employed by one contractor and port this in this House. then the bidding process comes up again and some other Section 5 of the bill allows the Labour Relations Board contractor undercuts and wins the bid, claiming it’s going to to certify a union when there has been a prohibited act, if deliver the services at a lower cost, the only way they can do the board believes it is just and equitable. Tis section also it is to rehire back the same people at lower wages. Tis is not lowers the threshold required for remedial certifcation. Pre- fair, nor is this right. Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9239

We don’t believe that the tendering process should under- union is required to organize the workforce, and a new col- mine the ability of the people who’ve been there for many, lective agreement must be negotiated.” many years to actually retain their job or build on their seni- Several Canadian jurisdictions have realized long ago ority. Ultimately, they are the heart of the food sector, and that this isn’t right, and they’ve enacted successorship pro- were they to not be given this protection and a new contract visions dealing with the contracting out and contract re- comes in, all their benefts are gone. All their salary negoti- tendering. For example, Nova Scotia authorizes a suc- ations have gone. Tey have to start again. Tat’s not right. cessorship declaration where an employer contracts out or [6:10 p.m.] agrees to transfer a bargaining unit in order to defeat or Te panel actually recommended a measured approach undermine collective bargaining rights or avoid collective that addresses the problem in an incremental, sustainable agreement observations. manner. In fact, their exact words were: “…a measured For many years — not currently, though — Saskatchewan approach that addresses the problem in an incremental, sus- extended successorship to building cleaning, food services tainable manner. Successorship protection should be exten- and security services provided in a building owned by a pro- ded to re-tendering of contracts for specifed services.” vincial or municipal government or in a hospital, university Tey gave some examples. Tere may be other examples or other public institution. Tey unfortunately don’t have it that we haven’t thought through, but again, you can imagine now, but it’s similar to what is being proposed here in B.C. security services or janitorial services, health care, food ser- Te Canada labour code provides limited protection for vices. To have a new contract bid and having the same work- employee remuneration when contracts are re-tendered in ers doing the same job just a day later now, suddenly, having security or other designated services. In the case of Ontario, to take a salary cut because the new contract came in at a they recently re-enacted successor rights when contracts are lower bid…. Ultimately, it threw those workers under the tendered and re-tendered in the building cleaning, food ser- bus. If they want their job, they have to take a pay cut. Tat’s vices and home care sectors with provisions for extension by not right. order-in-council to other service providers that directly or Te employers recommended a conservative, measured indirectly receive public funds. approach to any extension of successorship protections. Te Coming to the issue of education as an essential service, code, section 35, already provides that collective bargaining section 16 of this bill removes education as an essential ser- rights and obligations are assumed by a successor employer vice, instead keeping only the reference to whether a dispute where a business, or part of it, is sold, leased, transferred or poses a threat to health, safety or welfare of British Colum- otherwise disposed of. bians. Te panel actually recommended removing education Te changes outlined in this bill will have a huge impact as an essential service. Te panel found that the reference to on the lives of many people. Ofen these are people who are the education programs in the act is very vague and overly working at the lower end of the wage spectrum. Tat means broad. Instead, they found that: “Restricting essential ser- that these workers will be able to build up fair wages and job vices to prevent immediate and serious danger to the health, security over years of hard work and dedication. Tey won’t safety or welfare of B.C. residents is more consistent with the see those stripped away when contracts are re-tendered. nature and purposes of essential service designations; legis- Tere was a story from the Globe and Mail where a woman lation in other Canadian jurisdictions; and the decisions of named Mary Jane Bayangos, who works as a contractor the Supreme Court of Canada.” cleaning B.C. Hydro’s downtown Vancouver headquarters, [6:15 p.m.] said the low-wage workers like her desperately need the pro- Tose were the views of the expert panel that were so suc- posed changes. Mary Jane said in the Globe article that her cinctly worded in the document that they provided publicly wages at her previous second job, cleaning nearby St. Paul’s to government and others. Hospital, temporarily lowered when the complex’s cleaning Education services may well be…. Frankly, all of us would contract fipped four years ago, and she was rehired to do the consider them essential to the betterment of the next gen- same job for less pay. eration of citizenship. Aspects of educational services would She says this. I quote directly from the Globe: “‘It was very still be captured within legislation. For example, grade 12 stressful, fearing losing our job and our benefts,’ she told the exams. Tey’d still be captured by the board’s interpretation Globe and Mail. ‘I had co-workers who were close to retire- of the term “welfare” in its decision on what constitutes an ment age. If we lose our jobs, they cannot just look for anoth- essential service. Tat justifes a restriction on striking. er job that quick.’” Can you imagine? You’ve been working Historical changes. We should note that in 1992, the code there for 20 years, and you’re the age of 62. Tat’s just not fair. amendments adopted the 1992 report recommendations According to the review panel, what they said is: “When that education be removed as an essential service, and the contracts are re-tendered, ofen the same workforce contin- board subsequently concluded that some elements of educa- ues to provide the same service to the same customers or cli- tional services could be included in the term “welfare.” For ents with the same working conditions at the same location example, fnal exams for grade 12 students. In 2002, section using the same equipment. Te existing collective agreement 72 was amended to expressly refer to the provision of educa- ends, the employees are required to reapply for their jobs, the tional programs to students and children. 9240 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

In conclusion, I would argue that this is a very fair and is fair. It’s balanced. It’s well-thought-out. I cannot imagine balanced piece of legislation. It’s focused primarily on imple- anybody in the House, on either side of the House, taking menting the recommendations of the expert panel, and it ofence at the changes that are being recommended here. will better ensure fairness and balance in workplaces in the [6:20 p.m.] interests of both workers and employers. However, while I’ll start of with talking about the union certifcation these amendments are necessary adjustments, in our view, changes. We know that there are two polarities in this. Tere to existing labour law, they fail to address some of the more are people who wanted a simple card check; there are those fundamental challenges facing our economy. Tose will con- who felt very passionate about the secret ballot. Tis goes to tinue, and my colleagues from Cowichan Valley and Saanich the work that was done by the Minister of Labour with all North and the Islands will address this in more detail when parties — not just labour but the business community and we get to that section. public at large, as well — where he has actually produced What continues to be missing from the conversation is a what creates a balance. focus on how we can adapt our labour laws to support people Tere were concerns of undue infuence by the employer grappling with the changing nature of work. From increases to try to change people’s minds, because there was such a in precarious gig-based jobs to the increasing use of con- long time for the voting to take place. So that time period tractors instead of employees, British Columbians are deal- has now been reduced to fve days, which is a good thing. ing with huge changes to job stability and income security, I think I remember reading an article by somebody in the and our laws, frankly, aren’t keeping up. We continue to look business community today, acknowledging that this is a bal- forward to working with government to ensure that we are anced approach. responding to the changes in workplaces that British Colum- On the other hand, we heard very loud and clear from bians are facing. our colleagues in the Tird Party, as well as others, about I look forward to the deliberations at committee stage of the importance of keeping the secret ballot. So it’s no secret this legislation and supporting the advancement of good, where many people would have liked for us to have gone on balanced labour code public policy in British Columbia. I this, but I believe this is a good compromise. It addresses want to thank the minister, who was very gracious in his dis- the two polarities, builds a bridge and gives us a spot that cussions and deliberations with our caucus. I wish to thank addresses the needs of both. the ministerial staf, who we met with frequently, and the Shortening the timeline between the application and the many, many thousands upon thousands of British Columbi- employee vote taking place certainly will address some of the ans who emailed us, both in support of and in opposition to concerns about the length of time that was there — not that I the issue of card check versus secret ballot. would ever say that any employer would ever try to infuence I think the legislation has got it right. I’m very pleased that secret vote or anything. But I think that is the percep- to support this. I think British Columbians overall, looking tion and the feeling that many might have out there, and we back on this — some won’t be happy, some will be very have to pay close attention to that. happy, some will be upset. Tis is a balanced piece of legisla- Te two-step process of a card check followed by a secret tion. We’re delighted to support it. I look forward to further ballot remains, as I said. And that is, once again, a good deliberations as we move forward. thing. It’s a good compromise. Te other idea that really piqued my interest in this is Hon. J. Sims: It’s my pleasure today to rise and support an area that I am very closely aligned to. Tere is no secret the legislation that amends the labour relations code. Before that I’m a teacher, and I come from the teaching profes- I start, I really want to thank the Minister of Labour for the sion. I have spent a lot of my time in the world of edu- very extensive and expansive consultation that took place cation. So I do know that when all educational programs and for listening to the experts who convened and discussed were declared to be an essential service, it was very, very this at length. hard for anybody to come to fathom that, because the term We all know that the labour code needed some changes. was so all-encompassing. It’s been pretty stagnant since ’92. We know that legislation, Even the Supreme Court of Canada, in 2015, in their rul- especially in the area of labour and labour relations, always ing, did say that the right to strike is constitutionally pro- needs to be reviewed as time goes by. Tat’s why I’m also tected and that essential services — and this is in the UN pleased to see that built into the legislation is an ongoing declaration, the international labour laws, as well as in the review every fve years. I really believe that is a very, very courts — should be limited to “clear and imminent threat to good thing. the life, personal safety or health of the whole or part of the population.” [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Nobody is as passionate as I am about public education and the importance of public education and how education Minister Bains took the job that he was charged with is the very foundation of our democracy. But I think when very, very seriously. As my colleague the Leader of the Tird we’re looking at legislation, when we’re talking about essen- Party just said, what he has presented here in this legislation Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9241

tial services, we do have to take into consideration what criminals out there. Just a few things of clarifcation on a essential service was meant to address. couple of sections. Let me say that every one of us on this side of the House In section 6, 11.01(3) talks about: “Te director must pay really recognizes the value of our public education, how to a person who is subject to an order under subsection foundational it is to our democracy and to our democratic (1)….” So is this the suspect person themselves, the subject institutions and how important it is for us to invest in public of the application itself, that we’ve got to pay this person to education and make sure that our children get the very best produce all the records on his behalf? education that is possible — that every child, no matter whether they were born here or whether they come from Hon. M. Farnworth: It’s the bank or the institution that somewhere else, does get to receive a quality public educa- we are serving the order on. tion that helps them to live their dreams. With that, Mr. Speaker — I am very good at picking up Sections 6 to 13 inclusive approved. the signs — I would like to move a motion to adjourn debate and reserve my right to speak at the next meeting. On section 14.

Hon. J. Sims moved adjournment of debate. M. Morris: In section 14, dealing with 19.05, it says, “In this section, ‘peace ofcer,’” and it lays out a number of things Motion approved. in there. I’m curious. In 19.05(2): “In proceedings under Part 2 or 3 or section 14.11, proof that (a) a driver of a motor Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported vehicle (i) failed to…stop the motor vehicle within a reason- progress, was granted leave to sit again. able period of time afer being signalled or requested to stop by a peace ofcer” — that’s one — “who is readily identifable Committee of Supply (Section C), having reported as a peace ofcer” — that’s the second issue — “(ii) used the resolution, was granted leave to sit again. motor vehicle to fee from a peace ofcer” — that’s the third issue — “and (b) the driver’s use of the motor vehicle could Hon. D. Eby moved adjournment of the House. have resulted in serious bodily harm to a person….” Pertaining to that particular section, does the ofender Motion approved. have to satisfy all four of those requirements that are listed out in (2)? Mr. Speaker: Tis House stands adjourned until 10 a.m. [2:50 p.m.] tomorrow morning. Hon. M. Farnworth: It does not have to satisfy all four. Te House adjourned at 6:25 p.m. Fleeing would be one example, or causing harm would be another. But it doesn’t have to be all four.

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Sections 14 and 15 approved.

Committee of the Whole House On section 16.

BILL 11 — CIVIL FORFEITURE M. Morris: Just one question on section 16. Subsection AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 22.02(1) is: “In this section, ‘fnancial institution’ means (a) a savings institution, (b) a trust company, or (c) a person or Te House in Committee of the Whole (Section A) on entity in a prescribed class of persons or entities.” Would this Bill 11; R. Kahlon in the chair. include payday loan companies?

Te committee met at 2:46 p.m. Hon. M. Farnworth: Yes, it would.

Sections 1 to 5 inclusive approved. Sections 16 to 23 inclusive approved.

On section 6. Title approved.

M. Morris: Just so the Chair knows and the minister is Hon. M. Farnworth: I would move that the committee aware, I’m not going to take too much time on this bill. rise and report the bill complete without amendment. It’s legislation that we fully support. I think it’s great for British Columbia, and it’s hopefully going to be bad for the Motion approved. 9242 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

Te Chair: We are going to adjourn the committee. term would probably be “lead generator.” Tat’s somebody who might say: “I can set you up with the person who can Te committee rose at 2:51 p.m. provide the loan.”

Committee of the Whole House R. Coleman: Tat sounds an awful lot like loansharking there, Minister. Maybe you could clarify that. I mean, what BILL 7 — BUSINESS PRACTICES AND you’re saying is somebody can get a fee for bringing a cli- CONSUMER PROTECTION ent to somebody that is doing the lending in a legal envir- AMENDMENT ACT, 2019 onment. [3:00 p.m.] Te House in Committee of the Whole (Section A) on Bill 7; R. Kahlon in the chair. Hon. M. Farnworth: By adding this defnition, what you are doing is, in fact, broadening the defnition. So these Te committee met at 2:55 p.m. people are now captured, and they have to be licensed as a payday lender. On section 1. Section 1 approved. R. Coleman: Just for the information of the Chair, once we get to sections 19 to 23, there will be no discussion with On section 2. questions on those particular ones. If I could ask the minister for some fexibility as we go R. Coleman: In this particular section: “For the purpose through. I’ll pick out a defnition, and it will lead to a discus- of subsection (3), all continuing services contracts, except sion in and around interest rates in the marketplace. a contract renewed under subsection (4)…are in efect between the same supplier and the same consumer at the Hon. M. Farnworth: And we’ve got an amendment that’s same time, and (b) provide for the performance of the same on the order paper. or similar services.” Is this saying you’re going to combine the loans or that R. Coleman: Yes, I know. I’ve got a copy of the amend- there is no second loan allowed while they’re in the arrange- ment. I think it’s something…. I’ll let you describe it, but ment? You can add to the loan, but you can’t have two separ- I’m pretty sure what the reasoning is behind it, and it was ate loans? Maybe I’m reading that right or wrong, but maybe somewhat of a miss that they had. We’ll let you explain you could clarify. that at that time. On section 18, you have added the name of “facilitation” Hon. M. Farnworth: Tis section doesn’t change any- with regards to…. You’ve got “supply, arrangement, provi- thing. What this section is, is a formatting change that was sion or facilitation.” Can you explain to me what you mean requested by leg. counsel. by the facilitation piece of that defnition? Sections 2 and 3 approved. Hon. M. Farnworth: Facilitation is in there because we wanted to make sure that we captured brokers, as well, in the On section 4. defnitions, which previously was not the case. R. Coleman: Tis particular section is with regards to R. Coleman: I thought that was what it was for. But when a formatting error as well. As I read it, I wasn’t quite able you’re talking about brokers, are you talking about brokers to fnd out whether the formatting error contextualized the that are licensed brokers somewhere that are relative to that? change. So maybe the minister could clarify that for me. Or are you talking about people who are actually in the busi- Also, for the minister, you have the encyclopedia of con- ness of…? I’ll give you a couple of examples. sumer protection in the country on both sides of you today. I know some car dealerships who aren’t really brokers that You might want to introduce your staf. Te one on your lef, — at a higher interest rate because of people with bad credit by the way, we’re not sure has aged in the last 20 years. Just — have set up the ability to lend for a vehicle. It’s part of their because you’ve got two of the best in the country here, it operational side and maybe even in a company that they’ve makes it pretty easy for us. invested money in. Tey wouldn’t be a broker, but they are facilitating the ability for somebody with bad credit to get Hon. M. Farnworth: You are correct. I’ve got my execut- something, obviously, at a higher interest rate. So maybe we ive director, corporate policy and planning, Toby Louie, and could just clarify broker versus licensed broker — or not. director, corporate initiatives, Lisa Howie, who besides being experts, have also now given me a new word for the day, a Hon. M. Farnworth: It’s not “licensed broker.” A better word I had not heard of before: pagination. Tat is appar- Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9243 ently what this is. It is a formatting issue that leg. counsel had Hon. M. Farnworth: I appreciate the question from the requested, and that’s why it’s here. member. We’re very much aware of that issue, and our goal is not to eliminate, because we know there is a demand for Section 4 approved. the product. It’s to regulate smartly. [3:10 p.m.] On section 5. Te other two provinces that have done this, in terms of high-cost loans, have set the rate at 32 percent. We have not R. Coleman: I would have thought pagination might landed on that, but we are aware that you’ve got to be careful mean something like pot, but has an imagination. Good. We that you don’t force people into the shady end of the market. now all have a new word for the day. So that’s good. Section 5 has some amendments basically striking out Sections 5 and 6 approved. some language, and my concern around that is how that will afect the understanding of the industry. Tere are two pieces On section 7. to the industry. Tere’s a high interest lender, and then there’s the payday loan group. Te payday loan group are afected R. Coleman: Tis is more of a question of clarifcation diferently in their business model. We’re taking out basic with regards to…. We’re basically issuing “a new payday loan “payday loan” and substituting just “borrower,” and I’m won- for any high-cost credit product to a borrower who already dering the reason for that change. has a payday loan or high-cost credit product issued by the [3:05 p.m.] lender…issue, before a prescribed period of time has elapsed, a new payday loan or any high-cost product to a Hon. M. Farnworth: By doing this, what we in essence borrower who has repaid a payday loan or high-cost credit are doing is saying, recognizing, that what payday loans are product to the lender.” doing is payday loans. By putting this change in place, if they Now, I did look at the act, but I thought it would be easi- then decide to go into other products, then we will capture er just to ask you for the explanation as to what this change them by making this change. means.

R. Coleman: I’ll take that explanation and go to subsec- Hon. M. Farnworth: So the two changes…. Te most tion 112.01(b) as amended, where you talk about a “high- important would be the one, frst, that would allow us to put cost credit product,” the “loan broker” and the “personal in place a cooling-of period between the end of one pay- information.” From what I understand, you’re moving it over day loan and another payday loan and a high-cost loan. Ten to the Personal Information Protection Act, which is fne. the second change is consequential in the sense that it would Maybe I could spend a couple questions on this, on some of allow us to say from payday loan to payday loan or from pay- the questions in and around this industry and relative to it, day loan to high-cost loan. rather than bouncing between sections. Tis would probably move it along easier. R. Coleman: So maybe I read that. It seemed to me you One of the things that I found out as I was preparing for were saying they couldn’t get a second payday loan when these debates is that in some jurisdictions, they’ve reduced they already had a payday loan. Would they have to convert the interest rate. I suspect that on the high-cost credit the frst loan to another loan or pay it out before they get a product, you are going to change the interest rate down, I second payday loan? understand, to about 15 percent. Tat has happened in oth- er jurisdictions, and the payday loan industry has basically Hon. M. Farnworth: Tat is correct, what you just said. evaporated, in some cases, down to the point where now the shadier market of payday loans is taking up some of the mar- R. Coleman: I don’t even remember that word now. ketplace because, actually, that’s a product that is just sort of disappearing. Sections 7 to 9 inclusive approved. I’m wondering if you have any information or studies with regard to what it’s doing in other jurisdictions, as you make On section 10. your decision on interest rates and what decisions you’re anticipating. Te industry thinks you’re going to 15 percent, Hon. M. Farnworth: I move two amendments to section but that may or may not be correct. So maybe we could get 10 that are in the possession of the Clerk. some clarifcation on that. More so, what does it do to the [SECTION 10, in the proposed sections 112.24 and 112.27, by delet- industry for people who will need the loans, if that market ing the text shown as struck out and adding the underlined text as is no longer there because there isn’t the return? If the cost shown: Payment must be payable to high-cost credit grantor of administration, relative to them, just gets too expensive, 112.24 A high-cost credit grantor must not require, request or accept then what happens? a cheque, pre-authorized debit or other negotiable instrument from a borrower unless the instrument 9244 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

(a) is made payable to the high-cost credit grantor directly, and why I want the nuance to be understood — when you’re (b) states the date on which the funds will be transferred leasing something, there’s actually something that you have frequency of payments to be made to the high-cost credit grantor. Repeated attempts by high-cost credit grantor leased that is chatteled against what you’ve borrowed or what to access payment prohibited you’re paying leases on. It’s diferent than a loan, because 112.27 (1) ASubject to subsection (2), a high-cost credit grantor you actually have a chattel. How does a chattel ft into the must not present, more than once, a cheque, pre-authorized debit or enforcement of the loan rules — diferent than, let’s say, a other negotiable instrument provided by the borrower in exchange for regularly scheduled payments, or initiate, more than once, an elec- payday loan or a high-interest borrowing loan? tronic funds transfer, for the purpose of processing a regularly sched- uled payment. Hon. M. Farnworth: With this change, what this will do (2) If a high-cost credit grantor attempts to process a regularly sched- is, whatever the threshold we set it at…. Let’s say it’s the same uled payment and the payment is dishonoured, the high-cost credit grantor may make one additional attempt to process the payment by as the other two provinces, of 32 percent. If you charge that presenting a cheque, pre-authorized debit or other negotiable instru- rate, then what it would mean is you then have to be licensed ment or initiating an electronic funds transfer, as referred to in sub- under this legislation. Tat’s what the efect of this is. section (1), if (a) the additional attempt to process the payment is for the same payment amount as the frst attempt, and R. Coleman: Let’s move to section 112.17, so we’re not (b) the additional attempt to process the payment is made within holding you up here. “A high-cost credit grantor must not 30 days afer the high-cost credit grantor received notice that the charge a borrower a rate that is equal to or higher than….” frst payment was dishonoured.] Te prescribed rate in B.C., I believe, is 32 percent, or whatever that number is in the prescribed rate. Just for the On the amendments. record, what are the two prescribed rates? What’s the Crim- inal Code rate and the prescribed rate presently today in Hon. M. Farnworth: Te amendment to the proposed British Columbia? section 112.24 clarifes the policy intention to ensure that the [3:20 p.m.] borrower is aware of the timing of when funds will be trans- ferred to the high-cost credit grantor. Te high-cost credit Hon. M. Farnworth: In B.C., we have not yet set a rate. grantor will be required to state the frequency of the pay- Tat’s one of the things that we’re going to have to be doing, ments to be made rather than to provide a set list of dates to but as I said, in the two other provinces that have it, it’s at 32 the borrower. percent. Te federal rate is at 60 percent. [3:15 p.m.] Te amendment to the proposed section 112.27 would R. Coleman: Te feds have always been more expensive. allow a high-cost credit grantor to make up to two attempts Going now to 112.18, with regard to a high-cost credit to access a payment for the purpose of processing a regularly grantor cannot charge “any amount that is not disclosed in scheduled payment from a borrower. Te second attempt for the high-cost credit agreement,”can’t exceed the amount dis- payment must be for the same amount as the frst attempt closed in the high-cost credit agreement as well, and (c), “any and within 30 days of the lender receiving notice that the amount for cancellation of a high-cost credit product under frst attempt was dishonoured. Tis would align with rules in section 112.20,” and “any amount for making a payment other jurisdictions and with the industry standard. before it is due…” I’m assuming this is mostly directed to somebody who actually pays of their loan early and should Te Chair: I recognize the member on the amendment. not be paying any penalties with regards to that or making balloon payments on that particular product. R. Coleman: Tank you, hon. Chair. We’re going to get to that in a few minutes. We have a number of subsections Hon. M. Farnworth: Tat is correct. before we get to 112.24, but I think we can deal with it quickly at that point in time. It is under section 10. R. Coleman: I think that the product cancellation rights Just a couple of questions on the high-cost credit products is a good idea. Te only piece I would question there is if piece, Part 6.3, particularly that the defnition of “‘borrower’ there’s a default, the fees that are charged to actually sort out has the same meaning as in Part 5, and, for greater certainty, the default, whether it be an NSF cheque or a payment of includes a lessee.” Could you describe to me what kind of balances or to pursue the collection. I’m assuming that addi- lessee would be caught up in the high-cost credit products tional cost is not caught in this section. that would be diferent than the borrowing part? Hon. M. Farnworth: We have regulation-making author- Hon. M. Farnworth: It’s intended to be broad, so it does ity in this area, except with the banks, where we do not have catch high-cost leasing arrangements. An automobile would regulation-making authority. be an example of that. R. Coleman: I do have one situation, and maybe this R. Coleman: In this particular case, on leasing — that’s would be a good time to bring it up and just advise the min- Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9245 ister. Maybe you can get me an answer to this one, because before checking out whether, actually, the cheque was real — it goes between high-product borrowing, payday loans and from a bank — and then cashing it and deciding to send it chartered banks. I’ll just read it to you in the short version, to collection, to the consumer who actually cancelled their because I think it pretty well tells the story. cheque at the bank, issued another one to the contractor and “Two years ago, we built a house, and a contractor we hired asked is now out $14,000 versus $7,000 on this scam that is before for a deposit. We gave him a deposit cheque of $7,000, and he started another legal entity. work. A few days later he came to us and said that he’d lost the cheque I’ll move on from that. I think the rest of this, as we and asked if we would mind giving him a new one. “Tinking we were doing the right thing, we called our bank, and go through, the only question…. Let’s move down through they said that they would have the cheque cancelled. It hadn’t been 112.20 to “High cost credit agreements: required terms.” deposited yet, and they would cancel the cheque. Our bank con- I didn’t have any difculty with that, which has a long list frmed that the cheque was, in fact, cancelled. of things that I think need to apply anyway. Te only other question I had…. We get down to letter [M. Dean in the chair.] “l” of that section and actually (m), more so, and that is: “as applicable, (i) the total cost of credit expressed as a dollar “We then gave the contractor a new cheque for $7,000. We thought it was safe, and we were doing the right thing. As soon as we did this, amount, or (ii) the total cost of credit expressed as a dollar the contractor stopped coming, and we got a call from the collections amount based on the maximum available if the high-cost department at Money Mart demanding that we pay them $7,000. It credit product is repaid within the prescribed…period.” turned out the contractor had not lost the cheque. Te only thing I saw in this…. Because we now have the “He’s evidently a scammer, and some of this has been reported to the police, but he deposited the second cheque for himself and got ability to say that you can make a balloon payment, would it that one cleared. He just went down to Money Mart and cashed the not have been worthwhile to actually say “or less” if the client original cheque, the one he claimed he lost. Money Mart cashed it re- pays it of quicker? gardless of the stop-payment being on the cheque. “Te question is that Money Mart can still cash cheques and hold that person who wrote the cheque responsible, even though they’ve Hon. M. Farnworth: Tis is a base, a minimum standard. actually cancelled the cheque at their bank. Te law is made so that Obviously, the lender can do more than that, but this is the the cheque is as good as cash, and this was wrong for us. base that everybody will be able to expect and ask informa- “I lef a review of what happened at several websites, and I’ve been tion for on the loans. contacted dozens of times by people desperate to help because they’ve gone through the same ordeal.” R. Coleman: Okay. Te rest of it, I think, is actually very What is the legal responsibility, since you mentioned good protection for the consumer until we get down to the chartered bank — I was going to do it further on, but this is sections the minister wants to speak about the amendment just as good a time as any — with regards to something like on, which are 112.24 and 112.27. Maybe the minister would this? If the cheque has been cancelled at a bank, these people just like to provide an explanation relative to his amend- shouldn’t be up for collections on something they already ments. Te frst one. did properly. Money Mart cashed the cheque, but evidently, I’m not going to have any questions on…. We can just this does happen more frequently than we think. What are go from 112.24 right to 112.27, because those that are in the protections in the act with regards to this operational between, which are “Entitlement to prepay and receipts for defciency that seems to exist? payments” and “Early payment collection prohibited,” I [3:25 p.m.] think all are fne. If we could just get the explanation of those two amendments and see if there are any questions. Hon. M. Farnworth: I thank the member for raising that. [3:30 p.m.] If he will give us the information, we will look into that. While we don’t have the ability to regulate the banks, we Hon. M. Farnworth: On the case of the frst one, certainly have the ability to pass regulating authority that 112.24, what we’re doing is clarifying the policy intention. impacts on payday loan lending. Right now if you’d talk to most people on when they pay Just from what you’ve said, I certainly don’t think it’s right their bills, it’ll be at the beginning of the month or every that you phone your bank, you do the right thing, you put two weeks, for example, or once a month — as opposed to a stop-payment on the cheque, and then it turns out like…. if you specify a date. Ten what you have to do is that if Well, there are words I could use, but they would not be par- I’m the lender, I have to provide you with every single date liamentary. Anyway, we will look into that for you. for the length of the loan. Most people just don’t operate that way. Tey go: “I’ve got R. Coleman: Tank you, Minister. I’ll pass this over to you my hydro bills. I’ve got my bills coming out on the frst of the in just a second, and you can take it. Ten the folks in con- month or the mid-month.” Tat’s what we’re making clear — sumer protection can get back to me. that that is the case with this section, that that can take place. I agree with the minister. My language was…. It was Ten the second is making sure that when you can do the somewhat of a shock that somebody could go cash a cheque direct debit, or the debit transfer of a payment, the industry at a Money Mart, which I thought was a regulated entity, standard is twice. Tat’s what other jurisdictions do. So we’re 9246 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

making sure that we’re in line with the industry standard and a quick summary. We’re setting up the fund: “established for with other jurisdictions. the purposes.” We get that. We’re setting that up, where the amounts come from. Ten we go to the authority as direct- R. Coleman: Presumably, this is part of the request paid or, and then we transfer the fnancial education fund to gov- by the borrower but also by the industry to streamline ernment. Ten we transfer the consumer fnancial education administration, which seems onerous, and this is the reason fund to an authority. Why didn’t we do that all at once? It you made these amendments. seems like we’re going step by step with regard to the fnan- cial education fund. Ten “payments from” is also included Hon. M. Farnworth: Okay, then. I’ll go to the next one. further down. Quite frankly, I’m just wondering if I could get an explanation of why the bounce to bounce. First amendment approved. Hon. M. Farnworth: Te intent is that it will go straight Second amendment approved. to Consumer Protection B.C. But this being government, you also have to be prepared for diferent scenarios. Tis On section 10 as amended. will give us the fexibility, if some of those scenarios, however unlikely they are, materialize, that we will have R. Coleman: Tis question may be befuddling to the min- the ability to deal with them. ister. It’s a bit of a befuddling request for information that came in. It comes from an organization called FIMC. I’m Sections 11 to 23 inclusive approved. sure that the members over there are aware of it; I was not. Really, what it was about is that this section has something Title approved. to do with or brings an end to something that they’re not used to doing. Maybe the members of the staf that have Te Chair: Shall the bill as amended pass? an understanding of this particular organization and what they do could help. I’m suspecting that in addition to other Some Hon. Members: Aye. products they deal with, they may do bridge loaning of some kind with regard to waiting for claims or something like that Te Chair: So ordered. that would be at a higher interest rate and that would fall within the act. If that’s the explanation, I’m okay with it, Hon. M. Farnworth: I move the committee rise and but maybe the member opposite could just give me a quick report Bill 7 complete as amended. explanation. [3:35 p.m.] Motion approved.

Hon. M. Farnworth: What this section will do: if, for Te committee rose at 3:38 p.m. example, I’m the borrower and you’re the lender, you can’t require, as part of the contract, that I have to consent to you Committee of the Whole House supplying my information to another party that wants to sell me additional products or to market additional products to BILL 27 — TICKET SALES ACT me. Tat’s the reason for this particular section. Te House in Committee of the Whole (Section A) on R. Coleman: Tat doesn’t sound like…. Teir concern Bill 27; M. Dean in the chair. was that they didn’t want to be treated like payday loan organizations or cash stores, but basically you can’t go out Te committee met at 3:44 p.m. and overpromote your member’s other products. Would that be a clear understanding of that? On section 1.

Hon. M. Farnworth: Yes. M. Morris: Tis is a new act. It’s designed to control sec- ondary ticket sales of events. I’m skeptical as to the efect- R. Coleman: Madam Chair, we can now move this section iveness of it, because I’ve seen the problems that we’ve had and move on to section 11. North America–wide here. But I’ve had lots of positive com- ments from the public on this. We’re looking forward to see- Section 10 as amended approved. ing how this plays out at the end of the day. [3:45 p.m.] On section 11. We don’t have any issues with the bill itself. We read through it. It’s interesting. I’m still waiting to see how efect- R. Coleman: On the fnancial education fund, just maybe ive we will be in afecting international bots and how they Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9247 consume all these secondary tickets. But we will sit with appropriate information to the committee — to my right, the bated breath and watch this play out, as new legislation does Deputy Minister of Health, Stephen Brown, who has been — see where the holes are in it. deputy minister for some time. Tere have been three min- We have no issue from sections 1 to 30, Madam Chair. isters and one deputy in his time, so that’s a pretty good record, since 2013. Anyone who knows Stephen knows that Sections 1 to 30 inclusive approved. he’s an outstanding public servant, and he sets a very high standard for the ministry. Title approved. Behind me — I’m guessing now — is Teri Collins, the assistant deputy minister for the specialized services divi- Hon. M. Farnworth: I thank the member for his com- sion, which is appropriate, in particular for seniors services, ments. Yeah, we are also…. I want to make sure that, as much and Peter Pokorny, who is the assistant deputy minister in as possible, this legislation works. I’m pleased with what I’ve charge of all things fnancial. heard also from the public response. [3:55 p.m.] In doing that, I think not only Toby Louie, the executive Members and people who know the Ministry of Health, director, but also Meagan Gergley, the director of policy and and some members opposite, will remember that Peter is legislation, and Kelly Dunsdon, the senior policy and legis- replacing a longtime public servant named Manjit Sidhu, lation analyst, have worked very hard on this. So I also want which are large shoes to fll in the ministry, and he’s doing an to thank them for their eforts. outstanding job. I also want to acknowledge our two associate deputy min- Te Chair: Shall Bill 27 pass? All those in favour? isters, who will be here from time to time: David Byers and Sabine Feulgen. Some Hon. Members: Aye. With that, the estimates debates really are for the opposi- tion, so I’ll leave it to the opposition critic for seniors. Te Chair: So ordered. L. Reid: Let me say how pleased I am to join this debate. Hon. M. Farnworth: I move that the committee rise and I was in this role back post the 1991 election, and you and I report the bill complete without amendment. crossed paths at that juncture as well, in terms of seniors and health care issues on a go-forward basis. Motion approved. Certainly, I’ve canvassed a number of individuals over the last number of months, and the issues that continue to con- Te committee rose at 3:46 p.m. found all of us, I think, on a go-forward basis are the issues of loneliness, of isolation and how it is we care for seniors in Committee of Supply ways they wish to be cared for. I want to thank the deputy and Teri for the briefng the ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HEALTH other day. I thought it was a gorgeous conversation. I’m par- ticularly impressed with the book Being Mortal. I read it Te House in Committee of Supply (Section A); M. Dean on your recommendation. Certainly, how we juxtapose the in the chair. issues around hospitality and the issues around health care will confound us on a go-forward basis, I think, for a long, Te committee met at 3:53 p.m. long time. I wanted to share with the minister Te Montessori On Vote 31: ministry operations, $20,698,339,000. Alzheimer’s Project. I don’t know if he’s aware of this, but it has been insightful for me. It was written by a young man Te Chair: Minister, do you have an opening statement? in my riding, and it says: “…whose insights into human development continue to transform the lives of the young Hon. A. Dix: Just to welcome my colleagues to this debate: and old and everyone in-between. Montessori is an educa- the Health critic for the ofcial opposition; the Seniors critic, tional method based on observing how people engage in the member for Richmond South Centre. I’m going to get their world during the diferent stages of human develop- this right. Have I got it right? Tis is pretty good. I wanted ment. Tis is a companion piece to Te Alzheimer’s Fam- to say . I think the member does too. Lots ily Manual. It is an extension of those lessons in the of people in Richmond East feel that way — without criti- Montessori framework.” cism of anyone else. Te member for Kelowna–Lake Coun- Te issues I speak of in terms of loneliness, in terms of try — the opposition Health critic, of course; and lots of oth- isolation…. Tis is one other avenue of insight, if you will. I ers who are going to participate. would ask the minister to comment. I wanted to introduce, for starters — we’re obviously going to have lots of ofcials who are going to assist us in getting Hon. A. Dix: Te member will know that I’m a big reader 9248 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 of books, so I’m very interested. I’ll certainly look forward to Tey’re broader societal issues, but the health care system having a look. I think the member, when she gets up again…. has a big role to play in the lives of seniors. I think our I didn’t quite catch the name of the author, so I’ll ask her to policies, our approaches and, sometimes, our spending say that on the record when she gets up again. should refect the issue of quality of life as much as they She referred to Dr. Gawande’s book, and I think…. I want afect the extension of life. to assure everyone, by the way, in the Ministry of Health that Stephen Brown does not get royalties from that book, L. Reid: Tank you to the minister. Te authors of Te although he has recommended it to a few thousand people, Montessori Alzheimer’s Project are Lyle Weinstein and Greg including myself, over the last little while. It just shows, I MacDonald. I think they have the earlier books I mentioned think, what a good book it is. as well. It’s copyrighted 2018, and I’m happy to secure a copy. One of the principles that’s put forward in that book is the Certainly, the deputy’s recommendation on how to live the idea of how important it is, qualitatively, to live well and not good life to the very end of your life is something that chal- just longer. We know that since our public health care system lenges not just the patient; it challenges the family members. started, people are living longer. Te average life expectancy Tey, indeed, step up more ofen than not. when we got public health care in Canada was about 68, 69. Te notion of who cares for the caregiver will be another Our average life expectancy now is 81, 82, 83. Tat’s average confounding issue for all of us. So I appreciate what the min- life expectancy, but life expectancy at 65 is approaching 25, ister said on respite care — how we go along that journey and which means our time as seniors has multiple stages to it that making that something that people can count on much more require multiple responses from society as well as from the readily. Certainly, there seems to be such difculty in locat- health care system. ing that service and fnding that service and in people having Clearly, issues of social isolation are important — that we a clear expectation of what they could count on. Some famil- have an obligation. In that book, Gawande talks about this a ies are booking that a year or two years in advance and then little bit. In terms of long-term care, we have an obligation, fnding that it doesn’t come to pass. for example, to ensure high-quality, safe long-term care. Tat Are there perhaps any plans the ministry has in terms of is an absolute and very expensive role that’s ofen played by uplifing the “caring for the care provider” piece? care providers — to focus on the safety of residents who live in long-term care, for example. Hon. A. Dix: Te member will know this, but occasion- It’s also important for people to have the opportunity to ally, you make announcements when you’re Minister of express themselves wherever they live in society and to Health. One of the announcements I was most proud of address issues of social isolation by having mechanisms that was an announcement we made at Collingwood Neighbour- allow them to meet people, particularly in circumstances hood House with respect to those very issues of respite care. when you’re, say, in your 80s, where many of your contem- We’re signifcantly increasing, really, for the frst time in a poraries, your sources of social value, may well have, them- while, supports for adult day programs and supports for oth- selves, passed away. It’s one of the challenges of living longer er forms of respite care, including respite care in care homes than your friends or others. — the idea that people may go for shorter stays in order to It’s one of the challenges of a society where, frequently, get well and to return to their homes. people have to look elsewhere than their hometown for We saw signifcant new funding. I’ll get the exact num- work, which is true in many parts of our province. We have bers, but as I recall, the frst year was a little amount. It parts of our province where the number of seniors as a per- was $4 million. Ten the next year it goes up to $25 mil- centage of the population is rising as the number of young lion. Tose are signifcant changes. We reached out and people decline, as people leave parts of the province to seek essentially changed the view of our seniors plan, moving work elsewhere. towards more respite. Te person I gave the most credit to, Issues of social isolation are societal challenges that are for bringing those issues forward, is the seniors advocate, very signifcant. It’s why, at least since I’ve been Minister Isobel Mackenzie, who has been a consistent advocate of of Health, although I don’t think I’m unique in this in any those very services, of those very changes that are required way, we’ve been focused as much as we can not just on rais- in our system. ing standards in long-term care, improving access to surgical With respect to what we did this year, we’ve added, in treatments, improving primary care — let’s say the medical 2018-19, 10,393 additional adult day spaces, which are responses to the issues faced by seniors. important. On Vancouver Island, an additional 15 new res- [4:00 p.m.] pite beds were established, as well as seven new respite beds We’re also providing supports to community responses, in Interior Health. Te recruitment of staf to work in adult which includes, at its core, issues such as home care and day and respite programs is projected to result in 31 new home support but also supports for adult day programs, sup- FTEs by year-end. As I say, that is for the frst year, which is ports for seniors organizations that allow people to escape the smallest year, but we’re expecting all of the health author- from the very social isolation the member talks about. ities to expand adult day programs and to expand respite Tese issues are not just health care issues, of course. care programs in each of the next few years. Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9249

L. Reid: I appreciate the minister’s remarks. We both rep- have higher attachment rates to primary care providers than resent constituents in Vancouver Coastal. Let’s take a family the average person in society because they have higher caring for someone in their 80s who has MS. What could health care needs, so getting attached is more of a priority to they anticipate receiving as a result of these enhancements? them. But they’ve tended to be in a community longer and Would they get a week a year of overnight stay, a day a year? therefore have attachment questions. Families want to have something tangible, other than just the But there are, in many communities, signifcant shortfalls announcement. What does it mean in their lives? and signifcant attachment shortfalls. Tat’s a way to enter into the health care system: have a nurse practitioner or Hon. A. Dix: I think the key to what we’re trying to do as doctor who will allow you to get access to services and to we expand out these programs is to provide opportunities. provide a diagnosis, really, from a medical point of view, of Tose responses, as you’dexpect, would be highly individual. what you might need. [4:05 p.m.] In some cases — and we’ll perhaps talk about the circum- L. Reid: Tank you, Minister. Perhaps I’ll come at it from stances that lead to people moving into long-term care — a diferent direction. We have families…. I know you will, it’s providing and planning publicly funded long-term care, as well, because certainly it’s predominantly a big issue in which is a co-payment but publicly funded. In other cases, Vancouver Coastal, in terms of what people can expect. I’m there are provisions of home support. In other cases, there’s not talking those in the paraprofessions. I’m talking family participation in adult day programs. In some cases, there’s members today who are caregivers. Has the ministry done a eligibility for respite care. needs assessment in terms of the kinds of deliverables that Part of what we’re trying to do in the system…. I think are possible? Can every family get three days of overnight one of the difculties in the health care system up to now respite care in a year? I completely understand the minister’s is that ofen the point of reference for many people is their points in terms of what is an individual approach to health family doctor. What happens when you’re frail elderly, which care, but families are asking the question. Does the minister means you probably have multiple questions in your life that have a sense of what the need is for overnight respite care? require multiple supports, is that the doctor, while they may see you for a short period of time, is then lef having to work Hon. A. Dix: Just to be clear about the announcement, their way through the system, fnding access to services. it was $75 million over three. Tat was the announcement Part of what we’re trying to do around the health author- to expand adult day care services as well as respite care ities is to create a coordination of the services so the doctor, service over the next three years, on top of what we’re essentially, will be able to make one phone call. Tat doesn’t doing now. I’d be happy — and I think the deputy made mean there is one service for one person or consistent ser- this commitment to the member previously — to provide a vice for everyone, because everyone is individual. But it’s detailed response in each health authority. But I think the expanding the access to the number of services they can point is — and you see this in adult day spaces and res- provide and trying to fnd the appropriate service for the pite spaces and in home care and home support spaces — appropriate person. Tat might be very diferent in each cir- there’s clearly a signifcant need. cumstance. What’s happened over the last fve or six years, without What’s clear to me, and what was clear to me, is there comment, was we’ve had a relatively fat budget for home hasn’t been sufcient resources in this area to meet the needs care and home support, for example, which is a part of this of enough seniors. Tat doesn’t mean that in one year or two area of debate — support for families and communities, or even three, we’re going to meet all of them, but we have to which is an important thing. move in that direction. [4:10 p.m.] We have to move in that direction for two sets of reasons: What happened as a result of that is the decision was (1) I think the services now are inadequate in general, and taken to increase the number of people receiving the pro- (2) when you provide better adult day programs, better res- gram and decrease the time each person got, essentially. pite services and better homecare services, it defers the time You only have a certain number of choices, and that was when an individual might have to receive more expensive the choice that was made. long-term care services, for example. So it’s good for the What we’ve tried to do as we’ve looked at expanding these health care system, but mostly it’s good for people. It allows services — home care, in coordination with the federal gov- them to live their life freely for longer. ernment, adult respite care — is to, again, provide more I don’t think the intent is to have one minimum level of options for the system to respond to individual needs. Te service for everyone, but it’s to give more options for seniors focus in home care — the focus of our agreement with the who require supports from the health care system. federal government in home care, for example — is people In addition, I think it’s…. Because that issue of a primary who are most likely to enter into residential care, who may care provider ofen is very important in getting access to ser- need more home care. vices, we’ve been obviously seeking to expand and to address It’s not a question of three each, because for some people, the number of people who are unattached. Seniors tend to three days, for example, wouldn’t matter very much. But it’s 9250 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 to focus on that group of people and try and improve their time in a very, very, very, very long time I think will start to circumstances. Te response for other people might be dif- make a diference. I don’t think it will answer all the ques- ferent. Tat’s why — in my view, anyway — all of them…. tions, but it’s a start. You’ll see more people in Richmond, Home care, professional care in the home…. So ofen we more people in Vancouver, more people in North Vancou- think of home care and home support as being provided by ver, in West Vancouver, within Vancouver Coastal Health community health workers. Professional care in the home, and up the coast receiving respite services this year than last adult day spaces and respite care all needed increases. Tey and next year than this year. I hope we’ll start building the all got it when we announced our seniors plan last year. momentum and the capacity to provide more services in future years. L. Reid: I appreciate the minister’s comments. I’m simply in that place, and I know many MLAs will be in that place, L. Reid: Tank you, Minister. I believe it was 2017 that where constituents ask: is there any point in asking for the federal government and the government of B.C. agreed overnight respite care? Is there any opportunity that we will to invest $785.7 million in new, targeted federal funding for ever receive it? improvements in home care over ten years. If you could per- I’m not talking about the paraprofessionals that come in to haps give me a breakdown on how those funds have been your home. I’m not talking about day programming. Tese utilized in the last fscal year. Has the work begun? are families who are asking for respite care overnight. If we [4:15 p.m.] need to wait another year to see how that plays out, I’ll cer- tainly accept the minister’s comments. Hon. A. Dix: Te member, I’m sure, will be interested in In terms of expectation, can the minister clearly say numbers, so I’ll give her numbers frst. today what families can expect? Can they expect overnight Across health authorities, we saw an increase from respite every second year? Can they ask for two or three 296,884 home support hours in the past year, which is a days? Tey say to me what they simply have access to today signifcant increase. Tat increase in the allocation of the is a greater lineup of people saying to them: “You can moneys…. Of course, it’s not just for home support. Te apply, but don’t expect anything.” So I’d be interested in the federal moneys also go to palliative care, to technology and minister’s comments. infrastructure, which is similar support of that, and to primary care nursing, which is essentially community care as Hon. A. Dix: I agree with the concern. One of the things well. In all of those areas, money was allocated this year. In that struck me when I became Minister of Health — and it the frst year, the money and the frst year of the allocation certainly was consistent in the reports of the seniors advoc- for all of those things was $80.82 million. ate, which had some infuence in this area, as did my work as an MLA, which is work I share with the hon. member — is L. Reid: So of the $785.7 million, the minister is saying that there were inadequate services in this area. that $80 million has been invested in year 1, and there’s nine What we did — and this is in the base of the ministry — years to go and that the government will be developing per- is add $75 million over the next three years. But the later formance indicators and mechanisms for annual reporting years have more, so we’re building out the number of adult to citizens as well as a detailed plan on how these funds will day programs in each health authority and respite options be spent over and above existing programs. Could the min- in each health authority. Te purpose of that is to increase ister comment? those options so that there will be more people receiving res- pite care. Hon. A. Dix: Yeah. We have, under the frst year of the It’s not to provide options for every individual — many agreement, as the member will know…. It’s not just for individuals, indeed most individuals who are seniors, will home support, but it’s for that range of services under the not require those services — but to expand the options so agreement that I spoke to. Palliative care is, obviously, an that respite care is one of the principal responses in the important issue for the federal government as well, as are health care system to the needs of seniors. nursing and allied health questions in support of people in It exactly refects what the member is talking about, which community. is the pressure on family caregivers, which can be a double Te frst three years of the agreement…. B.C.’s revised pressure. If they have children on the one hand and grand- share was $80.8 million in the frst year, $87.55 million in parents, or children and parents, the pressure on family care- the second year — which is ’19-20, the current year — and givers becomes much, much, much higher. As people, of $87.55 million in the third year, for a three-year total of course, also live longer, it continues to become higher. It’s a $255.92 million. Te ten-year total, as the member suggests, wonderful thing, of course, in a general sense, that we live is $793.92 million. longer and we have opportunities. We have an agreement with the federal government with Tat’s why that announcement, which delivers to the bot- respect to how that money would be spent. I mentioned that tom line of the ministry — in other words, incremental to the priority in home care in the frst years is to provide more infation increases — new resources for respite for the frst care to people who are that group of people who are most Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9251

likely to enter residential care, to help them stay at home and plan in the next short period in detail, as well as to the fed- extend out their time living at home on the supports they get eral government. — to give that — and that was the priority in the frst year. We will, of course, be reporting in detail to the federal L. Reid: In the next short while. Will the minister be so government on the expenditure of those dollars. You see it kind as to say if that is September or if that is December? refected in the total number of hours but also the qualitative Give us a clearer sense. care people are getting in the community. [4:20 p.m.] Hon. A. Dix: Much sooner than that.

L. Reid: My thanks to the minister. So I’m hearing, and L. Reid: I’m going to accept that, because I, too, believe correct me if I’m wrong, that he is roughly saying $255 mil- frmly that citizens really deserve some ability to have a clear lion of the $785 million has been allocated to date. So expectation. If that is something that the minister is working roughly $500 million is still awaiting disbursement. on as well, I think that’s wonderful. Are there any new programs or any new services that will [4:25 p.m.] come from that additional $500 million, or will it be a con- In terms of the 3.36 that the minister talked about, it tinuation of the existing services that are on board? seems…. Te reading I’ve done suggests that, with rare exception, most facilities are at very close to three hours of Hon. A. Dix: As the member will know from last year’s services. So 2.8, 2.9 was the minister’s last round of com- Hansard and from the debate, the federal government, due mentary, and 3.36 looks like, for the most part…. Tat’s a to the frst four years — because there was a frst year, ’17-18, lif of an additional 20 minutes, to 3.26 hours — to get the which was $26 million — was providing in the neighbour- institutions that are roughly three hours now, 2.9, and lif- hood of $280 million. We, in addition to that in the three ing them an additional 20 minutes. Is that the minister’s years, in the period are providing…. We added $548 million sense as well? to it, as well as fnding money that had been announced but not allocated in the February 2017 budget. Te result of Hon. A. Dix: We’ll start a more extensive discussion of that is $1.048 billion, and obviously, there are signifcant new this, but there were care homes, for example, in Vancou- programs across the board. ver Coastal Health, that were at 2.7, 2.72, 2.73, 2.68. If you Some of those we co-fund, and we work with the federal look at those care homes, if you see that lif in direct care money in, which are the home support ones, the palliative hours — we’re not talking about non-care hours — we’re one. Tere’s technology on that side, and primary care nurs- talking about 40 minutes a day, 280 minutes a week in ing and allied health. In addition to that, there’s the pro- those circumstances. vincial things that are solely provincial, which are our own If you were at the average, which when I became Minister primary care proposals; community-based professional ser- of Health was in the neighbourhood of 3.08 hours per resid- vices; community-based caregiver services, which we just ent day, the diference between that on a weekly basis, on a spoke about; assisted-living services, as well, that add up to monthly basis, is signifcant in terms of care hours. It means incremental spending across the board. something profound in the lives of people. Tese are aver- Tere are, of course, many programs, and signifcant to ages. It can mean bathing or not. It can mean responding those programs, as well — I’m sure we’ll get to this in a quickly to a call or not. Maybe it means some time of just moment — is the increase in stafng levels in long-term care support by the bedside or responding to specifc needs of to the standard of 3.36. individual patients. Tere is a whole menu of programs and seniors services Te 3.36 standard was developed by the previous govern- that are being enhanced, in part by federal funding, largely ment around 2008. As the member knows, there was a sig- in the community sector. We refer to home care and home nifcant amount of attention around this in 2016 and ’17, support and then a whole series of other initiatives that the because, at that point, overwhelmingly, care homes didn’t province is driving, including respite care homes. meet that standard. If you look at the three types of owner- ship of care homes, which are health authority owned and L. Reid: In the 2017-2018 fscal year, governments would operated, non-proft and for proft, all of which are public be developing performance indicators and mechanisms for beds and all of which, in my view, should be treated quite annual reporting to citizens. Te minister indicated he equally…. Because if you’re being provided access to a public would be reporting out to the federal government. But what bed in a care home, ofen, you have only a limited choice in kind of work is underway to actually report out to citizens? it. We’ll talk about the issue of choice perhaps in a moment. So this is a signifcant improvement that’s being made. Hon. A. Dix: Well, I take it as my responsibility as min- What have we done? In the frst year, which is this past ister to do that, and we will be. I’m very proud of the suc- year, 2018-2019, we added $48 million to raise care stand- cesses we’re having so far. As we did in areas such as MRI ards across health authorities. Almost all of that money went and others, we’ll be reporting out on the frst year of the to private and non-proft care homes. On average, those care 9252 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 homes had lower care standards, so we started to raise them which means they started further back. Tey got more fund- up. A lot of the health authority owned and operated were ing to come up to that level, and obviously, for us to get to in the 3.31, 3.32, 3.33. Te idea wasn’t to get them over right an average of 3.36, you can’t have many, if any, care homes away but to lif up those that were at 3, at 2.9, at 2.8, at 2.7. that are sitting at 3. It makes the average very difcult to Tat’s where the focus was. achieve. We want to bring up the standards, particularly of If you saw the press releases we made and the announce- care homes that were in the low category. ments we made about that, they show that in the numbers…. I’ll just give an example. I’m reaching in here, and we’ll Tere were individual for-proft care homes with lots of res- see what comes up. We have these in order but…. Rosewood idents in them which had million-dollar-plus increases in Manor, which was in the member’s constituency, is now at their care budgets, in their funded care hours, provided by 3.26. Tey received an incremental of money at $167,000, that plan. So 48, roughly, 50 in the frst year, 80 in the second which bought a signifcant number of care hours to raise care year and 110 in the third year to get us to the average of 3.36 standards in that particular care home to 3.26. across health authorities. Te health authorities were given guidelines to go forward At the end of the frst year, we were in the neighbour- and make these allocation decisions, and they did so — to hood of 3.24 care hours per resident day, which is a sig- raise care standards. In the frst instance, as I said, all of that nifcant improvement to that. So we went 3.08. We added went to non-health-authority-funded homes. At the end of some at the end of 2017-18, in that period, to get to about the year, we added seven health authority homes — funded. 3.11, and then we moved up to 3.24 this year. Tis coming In Northern Health, there were a couple that were health year, since we’ve done…. authority. Tere were a number that were health authority All of the $48 million we did will be repeated. Tere was funded, because in the north, there are very few for-proft not one-time funding. Tose were to the base. So of the care homes. Tere hasn’t been as much interest by the for- $80 million, we’ve already allocated roughly $48 million this proft sector in providing care services in the north. year. We’ll be raising that up this year to $80 million, so adding care hours in a number of other care homes this year L. Reid: I think the minister and I are actually agreeing and then, again, a further $30 million incremental to the that there aren’t many homes today that have less than three base in 2021. Tat will get us to an average of 3.36 across the hours of direct care across British Columbia. If that’s the health authorities. case, I simply want to know how long he thinks it will it take Again, what you’re seeing and what we saw…. Tis is — probably not the entire ten years — to lif every single what made it an interesting debate, and some people were home in the province of British Columbia to the 3.36 hours, surprised at the action we took. But almost all that money giving his best estimate. went to private and non-proft care homes with public beds, because those were the ones that had…. Up to that point, [J. Rice in the chair.] up to the decision to make this policy decision to raise care standards in care homes across B.C., those were the ones Hon. A. Dix: Te exact priority is to get to 3.36 on average with the lowest number of care hours. by health authorities, so the average to 3.36 within the three years of the plan I described. By the end of 2020-21, every L. Reid: I appreciate the minister’s comments. I was at the single health authority will have an average, at least an aver- announcement where those hours were lifed, and I’m cer- age. My goal is not to have what you’d call a wide standard tainly just clarifying that the minister says there’s no longer deviation. I don’t want to see someone at 4 and 2.8 and do anyone currently operating at 2.68 — that that’s where he the average that way. I want to move everyone closer to the began his work, at 2.68 hours, and that everyone is now median as well. But every single health authority…. Tat closer to 3, lifing an additional 20 minutes. So 3.36 is $110 million in the third year will ensure that, on average, roughly three hours and 20 minutes. each health authority will have an average of 3.36 hours per [4:30 p.m.] resident a day for publicly funded care beds.

Hon. A. Dix: I think if you look at the numbers, they’re L. Reid: I appreciate the minister’s remarks. Averages are very diferent, right? So we started…. We had new publicly always problematic. If, indeed, that is the goal, today, how funded beds, for example, in Fraser Health that started at many would you say are less than three hours direct patient 3.36. What was looked at across health authorities was where care a day? the needs were. So you saw a very diferent…. Okay. I’ll just take the example, because A’s are always at Hon. A. Dix: Well, what I will commit to doing tonight is the top of the list, of Abbotsford South. We’ve just organized counting and then giving the member an answer. them for the purposes of estimates debate by constituency. We have a signifcant number that are at 2.95, 2.96, 2.98. Maplewood house is now at 3.06. It was lifed up to 3.06 A lot of the ones that were in the low end of the range, which with new funding of $327,000 this year. Menno Place was lif- were at 2.7 and so on, received signifcant funding, ofen, to ted to 3.03 — about the same — with funding of $696,000, Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9253 get up near 3. So there is a signifcant number, and that’s just this area, which is to raise standards up to the minimum, below three right now. was made. It’s focusing on those 27,000 long-term-care beds I can give you a detailed breakdown, if you like, of how that are publicly funded now, 30 percent of which are health many care homes are below the 2.9. Tere would probably be authority–owned and –operated and 70 percent of which are almost none in the Northern Health Authority, for example. private or non-proft-owned and -operated with public beds But I’d be happy to give you the exact number and have it for — to focus on that and to raise those standards. you when we start tomorrow morning. Tat didn’t meet our standard of what we should provide as a society. If we said it should be 3.36, then we should deliv- L. Reid: In terms of the measurement, the 3.36, how er 3.36, at least on average, by health authorities. Tat’s why long has it been in use, and what’s the science behind we’re spending the $240 million over the next three years, arriving at 3.36? rising to $110 million in the fnal year to start to meet that [4:35 p.m.] standard.

Hon. A. Dix: I was slightly incorrect earlier. I said 2008. It L. Reid: I appreciate the minister’s comments. If it, indeed, was established in 2009 and partly refected a growing incon- is ten years this year, 2019, since the proposal came into sistency at that time, I think, in standards of care. Ofen the being, is there a commitment on paper somewhere that says health authorities are engaging in a frst-available-bed policy. it will be reviewed every fve years, every ten years? Is there Depending on how that worked for you, you could get in a some go-forward plan? place that was higher or lower in terms of direct care hours. It also refects the change, I would say, in residential care. Hon. A. Dix: Not every fve years or every ten years. But I mean, we’ve seen a signifcant increase in the acuity, how I think it should be consistently reviewed. I think once we sick people are, when they enter residential care for whatever achieve the 3.36, at that point, which is in the third year, reason, or how difcult their health issues are, in particular we should assess whether that’s adequate, whether that is, in when they go into residential care. Tere used to be interme- fact, an adequate level. Tese are choices as well. diate care. We’ve decided to invest in residential care, to improve Essentially, a lot of the ones that were underfunded used the quality of care. Personally, I felt it was just unacceptable to have residents with lower acuity, but the acuity of resid- for us not to meet that standard. Like the member, I visit ents has increased over time. So it has made, a little bit, the residential care homes all the time, and I thought that was old distinctions less relevant. important. Te government thought it was important, we In any case, the 3.36 per resident-day was set in 2009 afer committed to it in the election campaign, and we did it. a literature review, jurisdictional scan and analysis involving We’re doing it into the third year. providers and health authorities. Tere was a refresh of that [4:40 p.m.] work in 2007 that found that although stafng levels should Tat said, there are, of course, choices. It was between that be made based on resident need, in general, 3.36 as an aver- and investing in other areas of seniors services. We talked age by a health authority will provide quality care and posit- about respite care earlier. If we weren’t raising respite care ive outcomes for residents and staf. services, there might be some people who ask whether we’re Now, the 3.36 is based on actual worked hours by care making the right allocation decisions. staf. It doesn’t include vacation hours. It doesn’t include sick On the 3.36, I think that’s something that can be reviewed, time. It doesn’t include beneft costs. Te target comprises but I’d like to make it frst. I’d like to deliver it frst. I’d like to only hands-on, one-on-one care — so not management, not get there frst. Once we do that, then I think it’s reasonable the director of the care home. It’s providing care directly to to take a look at that and then decide, in terms of what we’re residents. It does not involve secondary types of care, such as providing as care, what our priorities are. food preparation and housekeeping as well. Te 3.36 hprd — there’s nothing magic about it; I think L. Reid: I appreciate the minister’s comments. However, other jurisdictions have diferent circumstances — consists if he were giving his successor advice, hopefully he would of 3.0 hours of nursing care provided by registered nurses, commit to at least a fve-year examination of whether or not licensed practical nurses and care aids and 0.36 hours of the goal has been met across the system. allied health services, such as physiotherapists, occupational On his comments earlier about the acuity of patients, the therapists, dietitians and activity workers. Tat’s kind of the mobility of patients, the chronic patient care that’s required origin. Where it was decided…. Tey decided that that was and the complexities of many of the medically fragile, all of the benchmark, the minimum standard of care in British those things are going to contribute to a hopeful examina- Columbia. tion of whether or not the 3.36 is meeting the needs of a pop- As the member knows from the TV ads, somewhere ulation that I think is going to be much more challenging between 85 and 91 percent of care homes in 2017 did not and much more difcult to care for appropriately. I certainly meet that standard, which was eight years afer the standard don’t want to say “adequately”; I want to say “appropriately.” had been set. So this decision to invest very signifcantly in I think the expectation is that those kinds of levels of care 9254 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 need to be ever-evolving so that, indeed, those kinds of con- seniors organizations. Tat was great for a number of years, tributions can be rectifed and can be honoured on a go-for- but it’s not a permanent source of funding and support. ward basis. [4:45 p.m.] I want to spend a couple of minutes on the seniors Before I get to that, I just want to say one last thing about advocate issues in looking at issues outside of health. I 3.36 and the details. It makes it sound easy when you say: know she made some comments recently on transporta- “Well, we just found the 50, we found the 80, and we found tion. I think that’s a good thing. I don’t think we should, the 110.” Tat’s 1,500 net new FTEs, as we sometimes call indeed, focus solely on the health piece, because at the end them — people working in the sector, full-time employees, of the day, it’s about the quality of life. I think the minister 900 of whom will be care aides. and I probably agree on the quality-of-life issues in terms Tat means replacing all the ones you have now when they of how we go forward. retire. Tat area of life and those sectors of care are also, I certainly want some sense…. I’ve met with her in terms themselves, aging in the economy. So the challenge of fnd- of my concerns around the loneliness issues and the fact that ing appropriate staf is the thing that, if you will, keeps me up so many families believe that their placements for their loved with respect to that, which is ensuring that we have enough ones are, frankly, a cultural wasteland. It’s not adjoining any- care aides, we have enough LPNs, we have enough nurses, we thing. Tere are no services or supports. Tere’s no socializ- have enough people in the allied health professions to sup- ation; there’s no stimulation. In the old days, we would have port long-term care and, of course, everything else we do in referred to them as pastoral settings. Having to re-energize health care. some of those settings to create some vibrancy around those I just wanted not to leave that area without saying that settings certainly seems to be the interest today of their fam- that’s a major challenge. It’s not just about the money. It’s ily members — a sense of co-location. actually providing and fnding and ensuring a new genera- I’ll certainly give this as an example. In the old days, you tion of health care workers. used to fnd universities on the top of mountaintops. Now What the member says is absolutely right. I think it’s they’re in downtown Vancouver. Te same thinking has to something that municipalities have to consider in the devel- come to bear on how we co-locate and integrate services for opment of seniors housing. It’s something that we can be seniors populations. Tey have such a desire to be included, helpful with, it seems to me, in everything we do. I’ll give such a desire to see services integrated for them, such a you three examples I can think of in long-term care. Two are desire to be in cultural settings that actually provide some important. intellectual stimulation. One we just announced with Providence Health Care in I think we’re probably in a good position in British Col- Comox-Courtenay — a dementia village proposal. In a umbia. I mean, I’ve seen some wondrous places, where sense, a dementia village achieves that for people who are people actually have the ability to say what their choices struggling with Alzheimer’s and other dementias, because might be for a certain array of activities during the course of they’re laid out in such a way that people are allowed to do a day. I don’t want us to lose those kinds of opportunities. things that we all think are part of normal life. Ofen we’re I want a sense of how important the minister believes the talking about people who are able to move, who have chal- integration and co-location of services might be for seniors, lenges living with dementia. Tat’s why they’re in residential so that we don’t have them tucked away in pastoral settings care. Developing proposals such as that, which are new mod- any longer. els of addressing long-term care, is important. Secondly, it’s support for what we might call culturally Hon. A. Dix: I agree, and I assume there’ll be a follow- appropriate care. It’s something that I’m sure is of interest to up question. We have some examples. I think I would say, the member in her constituency of Richmond, just as it is in broadly, that that principle should be applied in support of mine of Vancouver-Kingsway. If people have lived all their seniors organizations, in particular, which ofen haven’t got lives eating particular kinds of food and perhaps not hav- sufcient support or funding to provide the level of activ- ing English as their frst language, having care that’s able to ity. Ofen seniors programs at neighbourhood houses or at respond to that, both in the community…. community centres are part of an existing arrangement, but Tat means support for organizations such as SUCCESS, they’re not central to it. We’ve got to provide more supports which does a lot of work in our communities with seniors to community organizations to get there. in our communities and others, or, if you’re talking about I’ll give the member an example. For a long time, seniors the South Asian community, an organization such as PICS, at my local neighbourhood house were transported to which has an extraordinary assisted living home in Surrey events, sometimes picked up and supported, on a bus that that provides just that kind of supporting care. I think it’s came out of the 2010 Olympics. Tere were actually quite really important. a few of those buses donated and purchased. Tose were Te third thing is, I think, direct support to supporting buses that had been part of the Olympic event and then seniors services in community that are developed in the provided to diferent community groups, including many community — not government-delivered but developed in community by the range of organizations already providing Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9255 seniors services. I think when you take advantage of things there was a major survey that took place on that that raised that already exist and you build them up, that’s the best way the amount being spent in that year. Just to give the member to do it. We don’t need a whole new set of things that have a the numbers, in terms of the 2018-19 budget, against the particular government’s name on it. I think there are people actuals, the budget was $2.435 million in ’18-19. Tat who have ideas about this, and we’ve got to take advantage of included…. that and provide them with at least a little bit more support Well, I think what I’m going to do is just hand this to the to capitalize on that and to build proposals in community. member at the end, because I don’t think we need to spend I’ll just tell the member about one of them that I found time saying how much was spent on travel and professional particularly moving this year, which is a gymnastics club in services and stuf. I can share that with her. Delta that has a seniors program. Tey have young people Te actuals, interestingly enough, that I have here are and children working in gymnastics and seniors who are $1.569 million, so they underspent the budget a little bit. It learning to do gymnastics appropriate to them, in their own says here, right under here…. Te member will appreciate, way. Tat’s the kind of thing that we also need to fnd a place now that I’m going to give it to her, that it says: “Not public to support while we’re providing all the surgeries and we’re — will be included in 2018-19 annual report.” But I’m going providing the residential care and we’re providing more spe- to hand it over anyway, because what the heck. You see, it’s cialized and important levels of care to ensure that people always important to read the document before you read it have an opportunity, as I say, to live well in community. into the record. But I don’t think that’s really a signifcant problem. L. Reid: I thank the minister. Certainly, lots of individuals Tat’s the range of spending that takes place. I think, who’ve talked to me about the ofce of the seniors advocate as I say, that the seniors advocate does an excellent job, should be dealing with broader seniors issues outside of that she is independent. She doesn’t receive direction from health care, in addition to challenging around transporta- me. Her criticisms of both myself and my predecessor, tion, housing, access to the arts or the impacts of aging on Terry Lake — you can agree or disagree with them, and of regional planning. Te minister touched on that in terms of course, sometimes we disagree when we’re criticized — I municipalities stepping up to ensure that housing is actually think refect both the infuence of her ofce and the char- relevant in terms of access. I absolutely agree with that. Seni- acter of their work. ors have, certainly, needs that go beyond health care. I cer- I might say that both of the initiatives — two of the ini- tainly agree with that. tiatives we’ve talked about, the respite care initiative and the [4:50 p.m.] 3.36 initiative — were really driven, in large respects, by Iso- In 2016-2017, the OSA budget was roughly $4 million. bel Mackenzie. Has there been any decision, any direction, emanating from the ministry in terms of making that ofce independent so L. Reid: I think from the minister’s comments, the $4 mil- that, indeed, those dollars can fow from another fund as lion was an anomaly that year. Roughly, I believe he’s saying opposed to direct and distributed demand — directly, health that $2 million is general operating and $2 million went to care dollars? the cost of driving the survey. What was the scientifc under- lay for the survey? Hon. A. Dix: First of all, I think we can all agree we have an extraordinary seniors advocate, Isobel Mackenzie, Hon. A. Dix: Te survey took place a couple of years who was named…. Te ofce of the seniors advocate, as the back. Te work that was done was in 2016-17. I think it was member will know, was created by the previous government. released slightly later than that. Te budget that year was It was an excellent idea. Tey found, I think, an outstanding $4.225 million. We can have a detailed discussion of the sur- person in Isobel Mackenzie to lead that. vey. I’m sure Isobel Mackenzie would also be happy to meet I say that as someone who is more than occasionally cri- with the member about it. ticized by Isobel Mackenzie, which is always an interesting Tere were some, I think, criticisms by the B.C. Care Pro- phenomenon. But that’s the role of independence. Isobel viders Association, and there was a debate about the survey. Mackenzie and the ofce are independent in the same way [4:55 p.m.] as Dr. Bonnie Henry, funded through the ministry, is inde- Te survey, given the sheer numbers of people compared pendent. to the total number of people in care who participated in this I understand that some people would like to see an inde- survey, had a strong basis. It was laid out in the survey. Tere pendent ofcer of the Legislature, which is another standard was a debate about that and some criticism. I think the B.C. of independence. But I don’t think anyone can argue that Care Providers, in that case, had some disagreement with Isobel Mackenzie or Bonnie Henry or any of the other that. One of the pollsters even…. Tey did a press release, as ofcers who are funded this way and whose ofces were cre- I recall, with one of the pollsters, but that work dates back ated by statute are not independent. Tey certainly are. a couple of years. I’m sure that Isobel Mackenzie would be Just in terms of budget, the other thing I think about Iso- happy to discuss this. bel Mackenzie…. Te member referred to 2016-17. I think I would be happy to share issues around the methodology 9256 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 in the survey, which are contained, in fact, in a document criticism. Tis is part of the public debate. Tere was dis- that was released in September 2017 called Every Voice agreement and criticism provided, as I recall. Tis is now Counts: Ofce of the Seniors Advocate Residential Care Sur- some time ago, so I don’t know the intricacies of the debate vey, Provincial Results, which goes, in detail, into those dis- around the methodology and survey that were involved in cussions. We could have a discussion here about the meth- the debate by the B.C. Care Providers and others who were odology. concerned with the results. Tat’s fair enough. Tat’s part of I would say delicately that it’s too soon to be asking this the public debate. particular Minister of Health about polling. I think the residential care survey had value and gave voice to people who are ofen not part of the debate. Power- L. Reid: As much as I appreciate the minister’s remarks, ful and efective lobbying organizations such as the B.C. Care I’m simply wanting to confrm that the conclusions drawn Providers, the Denominational Health Association, unions from that report support the methodology that was utilized. are ofen heard in the debate, but the voices of family mem- I have met with the advocate. I was fnding it difcult to bers and residents are ofen not heard. I think what the seni- get a clear sense of the science. Te rationale is sound. Te ors advocate did hear was: “Put their voice in the centre of array of questions — I’m not certain if they were vetted, the debate.” tested, weighted appropriately. I can’t make that determina- [5:00 p.m.] tion based on the conversations I had with the advocate. Am I hearing the minister say that he believes that the L. Reid: I appreciate the minister’s comments. He com- methodology was actually scientifcally appropriate to the mented more than once that it’s a couple of years old now, conclusions that have been drawn? and I appreciate that. I do believe it probably captured that particular snapshot back in the day, but I’m understanding Hon. A. Dix: Just to put this into context, because we’re that it continues to ofer guidance, insight and expertise in going back a couple of years…. I’m happy to talk about any terms of future health care planning decisions. Is that the issue, because obviously, a lot of work went into the report. case? I have to say that I think one of the important things that the ofce of the seniors advocate did was approach…. It says Hon. A. Dix: Yes, although it’s not the only report by the here in the report that 22,000 individuals were approached. seniors advocate. I don’t want to confate the other reports Tis is an area — and I think it’s one of things that the seniors that have been done — for example, the signifcant work on advocate does extremely well — where the people’s voice home care that the seniors advocate did, which is less survey ofen doesn’t feel heard. and more statistical analysis. To approach 22,000 individuals in the survey and 292 care I think that the survey is useful. I would say this, that as a facilities across the province is an extraordinary achieve- systemwide survey, I think it’s particularly useful because it ment. More than 800 volunteers were trained to conduct gives us a sense of what family members and what residents one-on-one, face-to-face interviews with residents, and they who are living the experience are seeing, are feeling about ultimately logged over 25,000 hours sitting with seniors and the experience, in particular, of being in care and being in listening to their care experiences. I would say for starters continuing care in the province, which is, I think, very useful that that has value. And I think the member would agree that and provides us with guidance that’s signifcant. it’s part of the work we do as well. It’s like every survey, though. If, for example, in a partic- It says here: ular care home, people only survey a small group of people “Te survey and its methodology were designed through a in that care home, then you’d have to use the detailed 14-month consultative process, including a diverse group of key information with care, and that information is provided stakeholders — care providers, health authorities, family members, in the report. We hear survey information repeatedly mis- union representatives, community groups and academic experts from across Canada — with additional input from national and interna- used. We know this. We’ve had this experience. People tional survey research experts. Te key stakeholders selected the sur- extrapolate. In a provincewide survey, they interview 40 veys that would be used: the interRAI self-reported quality of life sur- people in Richmond, and they decide who’s going to be vey for long-term care facilities and the interRAI family survey for elected. And that’s not…. You have to use the same cau- long-term care. “Tese surveys have been used in other jurisdictions in Canada, tions with respect to every survey you provide, in the indi- are endorsed by the Canadian Institute for Health Information” — vidual case, in the case of care. which is, I think, the gold standard in the area — “and the survey It’s a useful report among a number of useful reports that methodology and privacy and information security protocols put in the independent seniors advocate has presented. Again, all of place in B.C. were reviewed by the Health Information, Privacy and Security Operations Committee of B.C. and the Information and Pri- that is a refection of the creation of the ofce. And the work vacy Commissioner. Te survey was further accepted by Accredita- of the ofce is really a refection of the decision of the pre- tion Canada as fulflling their mandatory client experience survey re- vious government, of my predecessor Terry Lake and others, quirements.” to select Isobel Mackenzie — the cabinet would have done In other words, there’s a strong case for what the seniors that — and to have created the ofce itself. advocate did here methodologically. Tat said, there was Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9257

L. Reid: I appreciate the minister’s comments in that dir- where it’s only someone who is 85 interacting with your ect care hours are increasing, and increasing investments are 30-year-old. going forward. Is it the minister’s intention that he would I’d appreciate your comments. encourage the ofce to do this survey every fve years, every ten years? Hon. A. Dix: I think the member makes an excellent point. It’s one of the real struggles. I think in some ways, it’s Hon. A. Dix: I think it’s a good idea. I’d also encourage, because there are a greater variety of services in Metro Van- because of the discussion of that, for people, stakeholders, to couver. It’s more of a struggle in Interior communities where be engaged in that process as well. I think that’s a useful dis- ofen, if there is one continuing care facility, that’s the only cussion. I think you can always improve. So I think it would one. A lot of what I’ve heard over the years on this issue be useful to see this survey again over time to see if there are has been from Interior communities, from the north, where changes. I think you’d have to leave enough time for that to these circumstances are in place and, really, that care home take place, and the kinds of dates the member is suggesting is meant to capture a whole group of people. seem like the right kind of dates to choose. I think what the member is saying is that especially on the Te seniors advocate, of course, does do regular con- programming side, you have to refect who’s there, and you sultations around the province, so the survey is only one have to make eforts on the programming side. Tis is why aspect of that. care hours are important, because they allow you more fex- ibility and choices that refect the diferent needs of diferent Interjection. residents. A resident who is in a care home because they have to Hon. A. Dix: You see? I speak too soon. She committed be…. Te day that the member and I were at Louis Brier, to doing it again. Tis is why you talk to your ofcials before I met a gentleman who had come to Louis Brier with an you answer the question. injury. Most of the people that he was interacting with…. He Tis will be followed by another OSA provincewide sur- was not 30 years old; he was older. But most of the people he vey in 2021-22. Tey’ve suggested fve years. We’ll see if that was interacting with were dealing with issues of Alzheimer’s presents, but they’re suggesting that they might do that with- or other dementias. He, himself, was not in that circum- in fve years. Tat’s probably the right time frame. Before stance, but he needed, for health reasons, to be in a care that, you might not have enough time to see if changes have home. He couldn’t sustain himself, or his family couldn’t sus- happened or if priorities have changed. tain him in the home, so he was at Louis Brier under those circumstances. He was making the point of difering needs. L. Reid: Some of the examples raised in some of those sur- I think part of how we respond to that and part of how vey documents talked about the appropriateness or, frankly, we discuss issues such as the 3.36 is not in just quantity of the inappropriateness of some head-injured young people care but quality of care and being able to address diferent fnding care only in seniors care homes. I know, over my needs. In some cases, that’s refecting the needs of younger years of being elected, I’ve had a number of diferent families people who fnd themselves in long-term care, and that’s come to me horrifed by the notion that their 30-year-old sits important. In other cases, it’s providing culturally sensitive down to dinner every night with three 80-year-olds. care and refecting the diferent needs of residents who are [5:05 p.m.] there. In other words, treating people like they’re individu- I know we’ve grappled with this, in terms of trying to als in care. You’re able to do that when you have higher deliver a provincewide response, because it’s not a popu- levels of stafng, I believe. lation that’s equitably distributed across the province. So I think one way to deal with that is to address program- the notion that it’s found today in probably every health ming issues, because it is, as the member said, very difcult. authority…. Tere doesn’t appear to be hugely specialized Te numbers frequently aren’t there to sustain other altern- subacute care facilities underway once they’re no longer atives, so these are the options. So while we may fnd, in a part of the population of G.F. Strong or Holy Family or some communities, there are sufcient numbers to provide other rehab settings. better options, in the meantime, people are living there, and Can you give families any comfort, Minister, in terms of we have to do a better job providing programming services. what the future looks like? Some of those folks are going to live 50 or 60 years in a situation where they have no one Te Chair: I’m going to recess the committee for a fve- who is age appropriate. Teir peer supports have difculties. minute break. Certainly, with some of the reading I’ve done, other jurisdic- tions are looking at co-locating those populations but hav- Te committee recessed from 5:09 p.m. to 5:17 p.m. ing separate entrances, having separate activity levels, hav- ing opportunities for dining with someone who is more age [J. Rice in the chair.] appropriate so that families are not always in that scenario L. Reid: I want to follow up on the minister’s comments 9258 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 of earlier. I trust that both he and I and probably every other seeing the essential supports that they provide for many MLA in the House has been confounded by the families people in the home…. Ten sometimes they’re lost, as we who come in with the young, head-injured person and what have our own health issues. kinds of resources and supports are available. Tese are real challenges, and we see this. Supports in I appreciate, frankly, how heartbreaking it is for those community and, as the member suggests, supports more dir- families. Te notion that they wanted their issues put on the ectly in care or in specialized services in care are both things record…. I’m absolutely happy to do that, and I trust that we that we have to consider. I certainly take what the member can continue to advance a delivery system that just makes says very seriously. better sense. If your family has the notion that your next 20 or 30 or L. Reid: I want to spend some time canvassing the train- 40 years is just yawning before you, and you’re not going to ing opportunities for care aides, health care assistants, etc. I be situated in an environment that’s appropriate for your have, in my former life as a teacher and school administrat- age or your capacity — I understand the families and the or, been involved with training programs that began at grade moms and the dads — that’s absolutely heartbreaking. We 10. We had the BCIT program in aerospace. We had a num- would, as well, if we were in that perilous circumstance. ber of other opportunities. Certainly a number of them commented on the fact that Certainly, I’ve taken great interest in the syllabus and the in the old days, however old that might be, there was more program admission requirements of Vancouver Community group home opportunity, there was more smaller place- College’s health care assistant program, which is today ment opportunity. Tey could actually form some rela- delivered in 790 hours over 29 weeks, and the learning out- tionships and do some things. comes and the objectives. Tere are, certainly, school super- I know that some of the other provinces certainly look at intendents who believe this could easily be adapted for ensuring that four or six or eight people reside together in classroom delivery before a student graduates in grade 12, smaller settings and not necessarily stand-alone settings but leaving them with a skill set and an ability to earn a living settings that are attached to existing facilities to take some and, frankly, an opportunity to contribute to an area that is benefts of the economies of scale, etc. in desperate need of new, vital, enthusiastic membership. If the minister, at any future point, wants to direct some I’d be interested in the minister’s cursory comments. Is of those federal dollars to this population, it would be a wel- that something he would consider? I’m more than happy come decision. I can’t speak clearly to the exact numbers to continue the conversations with the other ministers who of families in British Columbia who would beneft, but cer- could, hopefully, bring it to bear. tainly there are…. I’m sure, in every riding, there have been opportunities for us to do better by the younger person and Hon. A. Dix: First of all, just to talk a little bit about to create some other choices and some other opportunities. I the very issue the member is considering. Let’s just say that would simply leave that for the minister’s consideration. today some school districts ofer a dual-credit program in conjunction with local colleges. Hon. A. Dix: I think the member is right. It always feels As of June 2018, for example, there are programs ofered like a gap, and we feel this in all kinds of areas when the — we’re talking about for care aides here — between the numbers don’t provide economies of scale. We see this in all Vancouver school board and Vancouver Community Col- kinds of people sufering from particular illnesses. lege and via something called the South Island Partnership, [5:20 p.m.] which is fve school boards in the south Island region and For example, when we sometimes see this…. We some- Camosun College. It appears that there is more in the ofng times see it in the case of rare diseases, and we certainly see it in that regard. So I think it’s an idea that’s actually happen- in the cases of people addressing issues around brain injury ing, and it’s being sustained in communities. It’s certainly and how we deal with those. Te member’s talking about res- something that would be of interest to us and I know is of idential care. Of course, the most frequent things…. Tese interest, for example, to care providers, to unions and others same issues of respite care, these same issues of home care who are interested in this area. apply to this group of people as well. Sometimes what’s Also, as the member will know…. We don’t need to go required is a little bit more support. back over this. She’s asked a specifc question about the One of the most heartbreaking things, beyond everything increased funding for more care aides that’s been provided else, is meeting with…. Because we’ve had such advances in for more training in existing institutions, which is impor- medical science, sometimes people are surviving things that tant. Finally, there was the decision by the Legislature, which they might not have survived, and they’re going to live a voted unanimously to get rid of Bills 29 and 94, which had an long time. Te angst that brings for them, in making their efect on the precariousness of work over a generation and independent choices that they want to make and for their that no longer, if they ever did — I don’t think they did — caregivers, supporters and family members — who are deal with the realities of the present. frequently their mothers and fathers, who are themselves [5:25 p.m.] sometimes, then, facing their own health issues — and in Tose are all helpful, but I think the short answer is that Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9259 we need more than one idea. We’re training more care aides but we need all of it. I’d be happy to provide more inform- today. In public institutions, we’re providing more money to ation. Aferwards, we may be talking to the school boards do that, but as I said to the member, just to get to the 3.36, as well, in terms of what they’re doing. Tat’s the fve school we need 900 net new care aides. Of the care aide positions, boards in the south Island and the Vancouver school board. I believe, the last time I looked, last year when we answered, I think they’re just getting started. You know, we don’t want approximately half of them were part-time positions. What to be negative about it as well. I think the idea is a sound one, we’ve done right now to meet some of our tests is to make and it’s being pursued. part-time positions full-time. Tat helps you up to a point, but we need a new generation of people to provide care. L. Reid: I appreciate the minister’s listing of those insti- Te fnal thing I’ll just give, which struck me as signifcant tutions. If the course is only 29 weeks long, at some future when I announced the hospital in Fort St. James…. What point, if he could provide the number of graduates. I know happens — and the former minister will know this — is that that there’s lots of conversation, but there seems to be very when you are making an announcement, you go to a place, little output at the present time. I support the contention and they kind of tell you everything about health care in Fort that some of these programs need to be aligned with colleges St. James. Tey did a 20-year outlook in Fort St. James, and and universities. But a whole lot more of them can probably they said: “We’re going to have a 187 percent increase in the stand alone. Tis syllabus could easily be taught by a school number of seniors over 75 — not over 65 — and a 10 percent district — 29 weeks, 790 hours. reduction of the population under 75.” I’m more than happy to have that conversation with the Tat tells you — that societal question tells you — that Minister of Education on a go-forward basis — there are there’s increased demand, and a challenge to the labour lots of students today who are looking to have a skill set force, to meet the demands of living in place for that seniors under their belt by the time they leave high school — on population in that one community in northern B.C. things we could do to aid that journey for them. Tey may make some other choices three or four years down the L. Reid: I certainly thank the minister for his com- road and do something diferent, but have the ability to ments. I think he has outlined my dilemma. I think it’s ladder this skill set into something else, something maybe probably one or two school districts, and I think the out- more technologically advanced, whatever the case may be. put is a handful of individuals. If he has diferent informa- I would welcome that. tion, I would welcome that. Te last I heard, there were only two graduates from one [S. Malcolmson in the chair.] of the programs. If that’s wrong, I’m happy to stand correc- ted, because I agree with the minister that there is a dire Te notion that we could graduate aerospace students in need. If there are, frankly, 900 new care aides required, there grade 12 and that we somehow can’t manage to fgure out has to be a huge uplif, a huge uptake, on how it is we gradu- how to do this on a broader scale speaks to me, because I ate these individuals, without simply moving them around do believe we can. I do believe there are lots of students who and taking them from one area to place them in another would beneft, and I certainly think there are lots of patients area. It is about a new capacity. It is about new individuals and families who would beneft by having many more indi- working in the sector. viduals seeking to do this line of work. If he would be so kind as to put on the record exactly how [5:30 p.m.] many graduates came from the two programs he referenced. I would commend the colleges. Te syllabuses I’ve seen are very comprehensive. I think there’s some good work, Hon. A. Dix: Well, those programs involve six school dis- some good opportunity before us. Te minister will probably tricts, and I’ll certainly seek to get more information on that be aware of the discussions, in terms of the number of short- for the member. ages in terms of full-time-equivalent positions that they cal- I’ll just put on the record, though, of course, that last culate for the Interior for this summer; 243 full-time-equi- year we announced $3.3 million to create new health care valent positions are currently unflled. So there is opportun- assistant positions in 11 post-secondary institutions around ity. Tere needs to be an appropriate response. B.C. Tose are: Camosun College, Saltspring Island, 16 seats; In terms of a short-term response — i.e., what happens in Camosun College, Victoria, 32; there’s also Camosun Col- a month’s time — the B.C. Interior is launching care homes lege Indigenous, 12 additional seats; Cap College; College to cover a human health resources emergency due to staf of New Caledonia; College of the Rockies, Fernie; Nicola shortages. What happens in the next four weeks, and what Valley Institute of Technology; North Island College in its happens in the next 12 weeks, Minister? various locations — as the member will know, there are many; Okanagan College, in their various locations; Selkirk Hon. A. Dix: I think the issue is something that we’re College; Tompson Rivers University; and Vancouver Com- obviously concerned about and addressing. For example, the munity College. public spots provincewide in the care aide programs have All that is a broad expansion to address some of this need, gone from 990 to 1,226 in one year. It’s a signifcant increase 9260 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 in the numbers, which refects that. Tere’s obviously a sig- release by the B.C. Care Providers. I’ll just make a couple of nifcant…. points frst about the registry. Tose spots tend to be fully subscribed, because they’re I think the registry, as the member will remember, was less expensive to students than the private spots, which are developed, in part, in response to some particular incidents also another 1,000. If you look at the overall positions, you’ll that had occurred and part in response to, I think, a justifed know there are 22 private institutions and 16 public institu- desire on the part of the government of the day. I believe, if tions that deliver the program and are recognized by the B.C. memory serves — it’s hard; Health Ministers tend to be a bit care aide and community health worker registry. Tose are of a dime a dozen — it was Minister Falcon who was there signifcant. at the time as Health Minister when it was created. It was in In addition to that, there has been a signifcant efort in response to those direct circumstances. every health authority to transform casual and part-time Health care assistants are not regulated in other Canadian workers to full-time to meet the FTE gap in those health jurisdictions. Tey are regulated here. We support that authorities. I think this situation is more keenly felt in the registry, and we believe that the stringent educational com- Interior. Te fnal thing I’d say is this. Tis has been the efect ponents for health care assistants are a good idea. Again — of a long period of time when these positions were disrespec- we had this discussion earlier — it was a good idea put in ted. And they were. Tey were disrespected in law, and they place and established by the previous government to protect were disrespected by many people making decisions. You do the public. Tat was why it was put in place. It provides sig- that over a long period of time, and it has an impact. Te nifcant system support. economic circumstances of the province are very good now, Te question, I guess, would be whether people think and it’s very challenging to fll positions, as a result of that. it would be justifed to abandon those higher standards in [5:35 p.m.] British Columbia that we have, that were put in place, in Tat has been the consequence over signifcant periods of this case, by the previous government. I don’t think that’s time, and even now you see, in spite of the fact that we fund the case. those care hours in a similar way across the board, what is I think the higher standard that’s required is to ensure received by the workers can be diferent, depending on their that these care aide positions are respected; that they’re circumstances. Tose are decisions made, of course, by the not the most precarious working positions in British Col- employer but have an impact on recruitment as well. umbia — and we’ve done some of those things; that we train in our public institutions and, indeed, in private L. Reid: Te BCCPA is recommending that policies institutions physician care aides for the future; that we related to the care aide registry be amended temporarily in ensure that people have access, in care aide positions, to order to allow care aides from the provinces of Alberta and full-time work, which has frequently not been the case. Saskatchewan to be hired by care providers in the Interior Although I know some people prefer part-time work and Health region, providing they have successfully completed prefer casual work, I suspect that was frequently the case a recognized training program at a registered educational not because of the desire of employees. institution in their respective home provinces and have [5:40 p.m.] cleared a criminal record check. Tis measure would remain All of those things are required, and I think we’re working in efect until such time as the human resources emergency on those, including work with the B.C. Care Providers, with has been addressed. the Denominational Health authorities, with the Hospital Tey continue to say that we’re in the midst of a health Employees Union, with the B.C. Government Employees human resources crisis in communities stretching from Union and other groups that are interested in the sector. Kamloops, Salmon Arm and Vernon right down to Sum- I think, essentially, what we have to do — this is not just a merland and Penticton. Yet we refuse to treat it like an problem for the next month or two months or three months emergency. but a problem into the future — is ensure that this work is Certifed care aides from Alberta and Saskatchewan seek- respected and recognized for the work that it is. Te most ing work in the Interior Health region are currently required important work that people do in society is the role that care to spend as much as $800 on credential assessment fees, as aides play and community health care workers play. We have well as pay for their travel and accommodation to Vancou- to treat it as such. ver, the only location which currently ofers the testing. For I think that in doing so, the answer is not to abandon some care aides, this cost can escalate to upwards of $4,500 decisions made by the previous government to protect the or more, afer additional courses and training. All care aides public and achieve high standards but, on the contrary, to working with publicly funded care homes are required to recognize the work of those workers, to remunerate them register with the care aide registry. appropriately and to train workers for the future, to say to Any opportunity, Minister, for those processes to be people: “Tese are positions that you can do a life’s work in streamlined? and raise your family.” Tat’s what we need to do.

Hon. A. Dix: I think the member is reading from the news Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9261

L. Reid: I would certainly agree that both short- and long- possible not to reduce the qualifcation? Tat’s not my inten- term solutions are required. tion. I certainly didn’t say that. Te term I used was “stream- I’ll give the minister an example of a recent issue I dealt line” that process. Would the inclusion, with the contribu- with, with the teacher regulation branch. One of the frst tion of additional stafng, allow that process to be under- contacts, a particular teacher who was Canadian born and taken in more efcient ways? trained, was told that the process would take seven months [5:45 p.m.] to have her documentation adjudicated through that pro- cess. It turned out that it could be done much more quickly Hon. A. Dix: Sorry. I may have…. Te member was quot- than that. Indeed, it was a stafng issue in lots of circum- ing from the care provider’s material. Tey were making a stances. I think we win these discussions by having as many suggestion about the process. I wasn’t suggesting the mem- oars in the water at any given time. ber was. I think, absolutely, there are always opportunities Perhaps the minister could give us a sense of how long to streamline. Tis is the process we had that was started in it does take for someone’s credentials to be put through the 2010. We’re obviously…. process in terms of becoming part of the registry. I’ll provide some more information, probably in the morning, to the member, with respect to what it takes for Te Chair: Minister. someone from British Columbia who’s gone through the training process and what delay happens at the registry stage. Hon. A. Dix: Tank you, hon. Chair. It’s good to see you there. L. Reid: Being that the minister is going to have that infor- If you’re in the province, of course, when you go through mation available tomorrow, if he could simply add into that the training, you simply apply. Tat’s the training here in request the number of people currently stafng the registry British Columbia. Tat’s obviously where the most signifc- ofce, the number of weeks it takes and how many cases ant group will come from. each individual employee would actually be responsible for, Outside of the province, there’s a wait. Tere’s a process because it seems to be a disconnected process at the from application to assessment that takes, according to the moment. note I have in front of me, at least 16 weeks. So it’s a signi- Apparently, when people phone, they don’t ofen get to fcant delay. Of course, we can look at improving those pro- speak to the person who’s handling their issue. Tey start all cesses, but what I don’t agree with is suspending them and over again, building in some frustration, when, in fact, if this suspending the registry for short-term reasons. I think we is an avenue we truly need to be concentrating on, then we have to fnd better answers than that. But improving out- truly need to have people wanting to do this work. Having comes is something that they clearly should look at, and as I taken the 29 weeks of training, we shouldn’t then confound understand it, they are. them with another six or eight or ten weeks of process, par- ticularly when they’ve been trained in British Columbia. I L. Reid: Te minister did not comment on the length of leave that with you until the morrow, if you will. time. If you train in British Columbia and you apply, what is In terms of other issues before us, I will give the minister a the average turnaround time from the date you send in your heads-up that my colleagues will come tomorrow, afer ques- application to the date you’re approved to practise? tion period, to ask their direct questions, and I will continue with a number of diferent issues I want to put on the table Hon. A. Dix: Well, as the member will know, the full for today. HCA program is 27 weeks. Tat’s the program. I’ll get Perhaps I have too much material. I know that your staf the information for the member on the B.C. side of it. I has indicated that the materials we do not have time to can- thought the member was asking about people from outside vass I will happily submit as written questions on notice. the province, but I’m happy to provide information on the B.C. program as well. Hon. A. Dix: Yes, no worries.

L. Reid: I appreciate the minister’s response. He’s correct. L. Reid: I very much appreciate that. I’m asking about both. Once you make your application in Te minister will know that I, and he probably does as British Columbia, if you trained in British Columbia, from well, receive many questions about diet in a variety of difer- the time you submit your application to the time you actually ent care homes. Certainly, I know I have colleagues who will get your credential to practise, I’m interested in that timeline ask culturally appropriate questions tomorrow, but are there because they tell me that varies substantially. I would simply any recent ministry decisions that look at elevating that par- like to put that on the record. ticular service delivery in publicly funded beds in B.C.? If it’s 16 weeks for those who train outside of British Col- umbia, a minimum of 16 weeks…. I certainly hear that it’s Hon. A. Dix: Tank you to the member for the question. longer in many, many cases. It seems to me that the minister, We will have some information, and rather than have one perhaps, would comment on the stafng in that ofce. Is it of those three-minute things where the member is waiting, 9262 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 we’ll provide that in our list of answers frst thing in the the health authorities and 73 percent provided by four difer- morning. ent providers. I think that the member will know that we are in con- All were providing the same services. Tey were the sultation with a number of groups addressing the culturally same contracts in both public and publicly funded but appropriate care question, which she, I think, said she was delivered privately, either by private for-proft or non- going to raise tomorrow, so we’ll hold on to that. Tere are proft providers. I don’t think anyone would argue that fve activities taking place, but I can give some detailed informa- diferent systems within one health authority was neces- tion on issues around food in long-term care, which I think sarily ideal or that there was anything magic about 37 per- was her question, tomorrow, frst thing. cent against 63 percent. [5:50 p.m.] In addition to that, the audits had taken place that showed signifcant problems with home support services L. Reid: Perhaps tomorrow, as well, if you could respond being provided by the private and non-proft providers, in terms of the new Canada health guide — what impact that and those issues are going to be raised and worked out has had on care homes and, frankly, what impact that has between those providers, who are still the providers today. had on budgets on a go-forward basis as well. Beacon is a provider until, I think, October 31 of this year. I want to spend a few minutes, if I can, today on the recent Tat contract was extended for the transition period. Te decision of the ministry to bring care providers work in- other providers had contracts, many of them ten years house, because it seems to me the bigger challenge is train- long, that expire March 31, 2020. ing. Moving individuals from one entity to another is not Tose contracts had been in place. Tere were concerns increasing the overall capacity or the overall volume of care expressed. Audits were done and concerns expressed about providers. It’s simply rejigging who they directly report to. those contracts. In addition, home care is clearly a key part I’m interested in the business case for that — how the minis- of team-based care, and connecting it to the rest of the care ter arrived at that decision. provided by the health authorities seems like a good idea and is a good idea. So we reviewed those contracts, because they Hon. A. Dix: I think that we had an opportunity to can- were coming up in a year. Really, when you’re going to do vass that recently in the House. I’ll just say that, as we’ve that, you have two options. One would have been to go out discussed earlier, home care is a pretty signifcant part of to tender again — some of the issues that’ve been raised are the health care system. It certainly is. It provides some of issues that occurred ten years ago, when some people lost the most personal care that’s provided in the system. Every contracts and others gained contracts — or you can make report, from the Romanow report to the seniors advocate the decision, as we did, to take home care in. report to the Ombudsperson report, says that we have to [5:55 p.m.] improve the amount and quality of home support services, When we made the decision, the suggestion was that there that the services that had been provided over time were not would be job losses from community health workers. Tat adequate. Tis is not a criticism of the people providing the has proven to be not the case. I don’t need to read into the service. It’s just a fact that was refected in all of those reports. record the comments of, for example, Beacon Community Te member will know, and this is slightly diferent in Services and others, members of the B.C. Care Providers, diferent health authorities, that the health authorities had who confrm that is not the case. long-term contract providers, but they dealt with home sup- Nonetheless, information was put out that suggested there port diferently with respect to health authority directly were going to be 500 jobs lost and everything else, which provided and non–health authority provided. In Northern doesn’t prove to be true. Other suggestions are that, even Health, 100 percent of home support was provided by the though the contracts are the same, this somehow was a health authority. I think no one in Northern Health would decision made not in the best interests of the health care sys- suggest that they should start contracting that out. In Interi- tem, not to put in place team-based care. Te suggestion was or Health, it’s 78 percent that was provided by the health made that this is somehow a union question. Well, these are authority. all unionized employees now, at least the community health In the Vancouver Island Health Authority, it was roughly care workers, and they’ll all be unionized employees afer the 48 percent. Te government provider in the south Island — fact, so that wasn’t the case. that was divided geographically, on Vancouver Island — was Te decision was made for practical reasons. It was Beacon Community Services, whose contract was to expire recommended separately by Vancouver Island Health, which June 30 of this year. Ten in Fraser Health, 37 percent of it is had a separate process with Beacon. Tey were proceeding directly provided by Fraser Health, with home care services, down this road having been in consultation for a signifcant and the remaining 63 percent is provided by four diferent period with Beacon Community Services. Tey’d decided providers, many of whom have been on long-term contracts they were on a separate time frame, so that’s happening this for ten years that are coming up on March 31, 2020. In Van- year here. And the decision, the recommendation, was made couver Coastal Health, it was 27 percent provided directly by by the management of the Fraser Health Authority and the Vancouver Coastal Health Authority to bring those services Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9263 in — that it was in the interests of the health care system, was them to do, which is do an analysis. And yes, the audits had the appropriate response to concerns with the existing sys- infuence on that. But also, they did an analysis of the qual- tem, and it would bring improvements in people’s lives. ity of care. Tey concluded that this was the right decision Ultimately, this is about the seniors receiving the services. based, in particular, on the quality of care for people receiv- It was with them in mind that the health authorities recom- ing the services. Tey made the analysis. Tey made the mended this, Ensuring that they have better services, and, as decision. Tey made the recommendation. I obviously agree we expand services, that those services be better connected with their analysis and their recommendation and decision. to the rest of the health care system, made sense. Tat’s why we made the decision. L. Reid: Perhaps the minister could tell me whether or not the audits are publicly available. L. Reid: I thank the minister for his comments. I certainly heard the announcement. Certainly, I think I just heard it Hon. A. Dix: Yeah. Tere’s a process going on right again. What I haven’t heard is the business case. Is the min- now with the providers, as the member would expect. ister suggesting that the audits actually are the business case, Tey obviously have interest in the matter, and the issues and, if so, are those publicly available? are being worked through with them. Right now they’re not publicly available. But they’re going through a process Hon. A. Dix: Te health authorities do what they would between the existing providers, who continue, by the way, always do in this circumstance, which is analyze the options. to be our providers, in the case of Vancouver Island, until Tose options seem to be…. I mean, conceivably, I guess, the fall, although there was no audit on Vancouver Island. there’s an option that you would roll over contracts, but I Tis was only a factor in Fraser Health and in Vancouver don’t think that was a practical option. Te options were Coastal Health. whether you would go out to tender again — especially with Tey’re working through the issues in the audits between the possibility, in some cases, that existing providers were the providers and the health authorities as we speak. You not interested in bidding, at least not on the basis of which would expect that to happen and them to have a chance to contracts have been provided — or whether you’d bring be both heard and have that discussion between the health them in. authorities and the providers. Te health authorities made a signifcant analysis of what Tose audits exist, and they took place. Tey were some was the best option, and they came to the conclusion that of the basis of the decision. But the main decision was that bringing those services in, in the cases of Fraser Health and this would be a better way to provide care to people who of Vancouver Coastal Health, made sense. VIHA, by the way, are receiving home care in the province. I don’t think that still has some existing contracts that are not going to be if you look at the way health authorities organize home brought in and are not brought in, and that will continue. In care and home support, there can be much argument that this period, as well, we’ve renewed some contracts in parts of this is a better way to integrate that care into the rest of the IHA that are non–health authority contracts. I think I men- health care system. tioned earlier that Interior Health is about 78 percent pub- licly provided now. In that remaining 22 percent, there is L. Reid: I can’t glean from the minister’s remarks if indeed some renewal of contracts. they’re going to be made public at a future point. But perhaps Te health authorities made an assessment. What was he can enlighten me tomorrow on a go-forward basis. Tat best, frst of all, for the people receiving the services. What would be helpful. was best for, as we say, building out and recruiting people Certainly, he made the comment: “Who would not choose in the area. What was best to provide, I think, better, shall team-based care?” Te reality is lots of individuals delivering we say, sustainability of employment in the future. And what those services today believe they’re already part of the health was better for overall care. Tey came to the conclusion that care team. Tey already believe that, so I think that that com- this was the right decision. Tey recommended that, and ment is probably not refective of everyone currently work- they’re proceeding with that decision. ing in that service delivery model. In terms of the length of time for visits, certainly, 15 L. Reid: So the minister is saying that the ministry doesn’t minutes seems to be a slot that many families experience have the business case but in fact that the local authorities when someone comes to their home to deliver that health have that business case. In terms of my question…. I’m care. Any sense of how we compare in British Columbia, happy to stand corrected, because I really want to clearly compared to other provinces in Canada? Is 15 minutes of understand why there doesn’t appear to be a business case time to visit standard across the country? for this decision. If the audits are publicly available, I would appreciate knowing that as well. Hon. A. Dix: Tose decisions are based on the needs of [6:00 p.m.] the client. I talked earlier about a priority to people — who we want to stay at home and extend the period that they Hon. A. Dix: Te health authorities did what we’d expect stay at home as opposed to going into long-term care. We’re, 9264 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 obviously, experimenting with and advancing models as we tional training costs that government will then have respons- expand the number of hours — not just increase the number ibility for. Is that not the minister’s understanding as well? of people in the program but the amount of time that’s spent with individual clients. Hon. A. Dix: “Tey” suggested. Who are they? I would say that my point isn’t that they’re not part of the health care system now. In fact, they’ll continue to be. We’ll L. Reid: Some individuals who currently deliver the ser- continue to have for-proft providers. We do all the time. vice, visit the homes. Te health care workers tell me that We just talked about long-term care. It’s not an issue of not they have already heard they will have additional training favouring private providers of publicly delivered services. It’s responsibilities placed upon them. I assume those training quite the contrary. responsibilities, then to be delivered by health authorities, In this case, having within health authorities more fully will come with a cost. I would simply like to break down integrated home support services with the rest of health care what those costs might be. services makes sense. It makes sense in terms of the delivery of those services. It makes sense in terms of the reports that Hon. A. Dix: Well, if what the member is saying is we’re have come forward. It makes sense in terms of the audits I’ve going to improve service, the answer is yes. Tat’s a dif- referred to. It makes sense, ultimately, for the clients, who ferent question. But if you were talking about increasing ofen will need a variety of services provided by the health whatever standards or whatever else, I’m not sure what, care system. specifcally, the member is referring to, because it wasn’t a Tat’s the reason the decision was made, and we’re fully specifc suggestion. respectful. Beacon Community Services, for example, I would say this. We are determined to improve home provides outstanding services and will continue to afer this support services. We’re determined to fully integrate them particular contract has ended. into the health care system, and it’s because seniors and [6:05 p.m.] others who need care in the home are asking for and Te issue isn’t whether the health care system doesn’t have requiring that. Tat’s what the reports say, and that’s what public and private components in terms of delivery. It cer- they’re saying to me. tainly does. Te issue is how to best deliver the services. A What the delivery system is, whether it would be public year or 13 months before the end of a ten-year contract is and private or just public in a health authority…. Tose the time when you assess whether you go back to tender or standards would be in place whether they would work for a whether you bring services back in. public or a private provider. If you’re increasing standards, I remind the member that at B.C. Hydro — we have some those would apply there and would apply if you were familiarity with it — there was a huge contracting out. And improving or increasing standards, if that’s what you were there was a very signifcant contracting in decided by the planning to do — or, in contrast, improving the quality of former CEO in the 2015-16 period, a contracting-in award, work so that you can recruit more people. because contracting out in that area wasn’t working particu- Sometimes, of course, some of the problem in this area larly well for B.C. Hydro. I think it’s in that same approach has nothing to do with these issues of whether it’s a for-proft that we made this decision. provider or a public provider. In every area of health care, we need more staf. We need more staf in terms of long-term L. Reid: I thank the minister for the answer. care. We need more staf and are going to need more staf In terms of the 4,000 people that he anticipates will be in terms of home care. Tese are ofen hard jobs, and the transitioned, what’s the cost to government for that exercise? composition of the workforce, in many cases, is older than the provincial average, so we’re going to need more people Hon. A. Dix: Well, cost to government…. We pay for the as well. Many people, of course, who work in home care and services already, right? So we pay for the existing contracts. home support struggle with the difculty of hours and the Had we gone to tender and there had been winners in tender, difculty of stafng, as did and as do the contractors. we would have paid for that as well. So these costs will be [6:10 p.m.] managed within their operating budgets. Tey’re the same workers coming in and the same collective agreements. L. Reid: Bringing 4,000 additional bodies in-house, if you Of course, it’s important to remind everyone that the will…. Tere will be some attendant costs to that. I’m not decisions were informed by audits that revealed contractual clear that the minister understands my question. compliance issues. We have the same collective agreements, I don’t think it’s going to move seamlessly. I do think and we’re paying for those services already. there are going to be some costs attached to that. But had there been a business case, that would have been probably L. Reid: Certainly, they suggest to me — individuals that I illustrated in the business case, which simply has not been have spoken to who currently deliver the service — that they shared, should it exist. What has the ministry looked at in believe there will be additional training opportunities, addi- terms of how much it will cost to move those people? Even Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9265 in the bumping process that will likely occur — what is the than those of the contracted providers, so there will be sav- cost to the system for that? ings there. [6:15 p.m.] Hon. A. Dix: Well, you know, I think the argument is If we’d gone to tender…. Presumably, in that tender that they’re a diferent contract. It’s the same contract, and process, there would have been winners and losers. Who we need all of those workers. Because we’re improving and knows what the bids would have been? Ten there are increasing home support services, we’ll need all of those costs to the tender just as there are to on-boarding, but workers and more. So everybody who wants an opportunity those are parallel costs. will have an opportunity. Tat’s the reality. I think that if you look at it apples to apples, clearly the Te reason why you provide more than the year’s notice, health authorities think this is the right decision, and I think as we did in Fraser Health and Vancouver Coastal Health, is it clearly is the right decision. If people think that 37 percent to address these very issues of transition. Tat’s what we are in Fraser Health Authority–directed and 63 percent in four doing, and that’s what we intend to do. But if the member other agencies is the right model…. If there’s something thinks there are services being provided now that are being magic about that that I’m missing, then I think it would be paid for someone under these contracts…. Tere is a whole interesting for people to defend that position. Tat’s certainly home care sector that’s outside of the public health care sys- not the position I’ve taken. tem. I think she’s aware of that, and I am. If, in fact, we take measures, for example, to improve But if she think that there’s something that we’re not pay- issues around workplace violence and those have a cost, ing for now…. We pay for it now. We’re just paying in terms that’s a raising of standards, and that’s an entirely diferent of delivery. Fraser Health, for example, is 37 percent publicly question. directed and run and 63 percent through contracts, but it’s 100 percent paid for by the health authority. Te Chair: Member, could we have a brief question to end the day? We’re right at the edge of time. L. Reid: I’m happy to receive the information. If the min- ister is saying that he sees no additional cost to having 100 L. Reid: Yes, I will simply put my question on the record percent of those services delivered by the Health Ministry, I for a response tomorrow. Te minister is making the claim would welcome that comment. that the on-boarding administrative costs will be similar to the contracting-out administrative costs. I would like to Hon. A. Dix: Te member will know. What I’m saying, know what both of those costs he anticipates might be. very simply, is (1) we pay for the services now, and (2) the Tomorrow is fne in terms of the answer. I certainly touched collective agreements are the same. Had we gone to tender, on the cost of the bumping process, if we can canvass that as the member will know, the results of that tender would tomorrow as well. have been the results of that tender. Te diferent agencies would have bid or not bid for that. Hon. A. Dix: I thank the member for her questions. I I think the member should at least agree with this and think, clearly, there have been costs that have been refected presumably would agree with this: that ten years ago, when in terms of contracted compliance. Te main costs, though, there was a competitive tender and some people won and have been felt in terms of services by people receiving home some people lost, there was displacement at that time. Tis support services. Tose are the people that, in my view, I process is providing much more signifcant notice, and the need to speak for as Minister of Health, and those are the health authorities are looking forward, I think, to continuing people we’ve spoken to in making this decision. that work with the agencies, as they are on Vancouver Island With that, I move that the committee rise, report progress right now between Beacon Community Services and the and ask leave to sit again. Vancouver Island Health Authority. Motion approved. L. Reid: So the minister is saying that there is no addi- tional administrative cost attached to this wholesale move of Te Chair: We will adjourn until tomorrow morning. 4,000 people basically coming under a diferent administra- tive regime. Te committee rose at 6:17 p.m.

Hon. A. Dix: I think the member will know that there’d be administrative costs to a tender as well. If we’d gone through an expensive tendering process, there would have been administrative costs there. I’d note just in passing that the ministry has been in touch with WorkSafe, and they’ve con- frmed that health authority premiums are, in fact, lower 9266 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

a very long time, but particularly this year, in dealing with Proceedings in the Birch Room some very major power outages throughout British Colum- bia and their rapid response, and that people are working Committee of Supply right around the clock to do so. Over the Christmas holiday, that was the case here on the Island. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ENERGY, I appreciate, however, that consecutive numerous power MINES AND PETROLEUM RESOURCES outages are more than just an inconvenience for people. (continued) Teir businesses rely on having electricity to turn the lights on — just the basics. So I’ll commit to the member today…. Te House in Committee of Supply (Section C); I am going to take it on notice. I’m going to look into it, and I R. Glumac in the chair. will talk to B.C. Hydro directly about why there are so many power outages and what their plans are for the future. Te committee met at 2:48 p.m. S. Furstenau: I have just a couple of questions on mining On Vote 22: ministry operations, $177,038,000 permits and mining in general. Te frst one is related to the (continued). contaminated landfll that’s in Shawnigan Lake’s watershed right now. T. Shypitka: Last time we lef of, we were talking about In 2008, the Ministry of Mines issued a permit to Cobble mining permitting, carbon tax, corporate tax, a whole slew Hill Holdings, Shawnigan SIA, and that permit allowed them of things. to stockpile soil on lot 21, which is the adjacent lot, on the Te member for Chilliwack-Kent has a couple of ques- property owned by this company, to lot 23, which is where tions in regard to B.C. Hydro. Now, I know the Hydro staf the contaminated landfll currently sits. have gone, but he would still like to get his question on the For several instances between 2008 and 2016 — that was record. the most recent, by Al Hofman, who was the chief inspector of mines at the time — the community was told repeatedly L. Troness: I realize, as my colleague said, that unfortu- that the purpose of the soil that was being deposited on lot nately the Hydro ofcials are gone. But I do have a couple of 21 was for reclamation of the quarry site on lot 23. In the last questions. couple of weeks, there has been a reversal on that from the Tere are about 1,000 residents of Morris Valley, Hemlock Ministry of Mines, saying that despite this being written in Valley and Deroche, in the Fraser Valley, who sufer constant the permit, it is not enforceable. power outages, and they wanted me to get this on the record. Could the minister speak to how it is that a permit condi- Tere have been 51 power outages in the past 37 months. tion is not enforceable? We’ve written the minister. We’ve written the CEO of B.C. [2:55 p.m.] Hydro. Ofcials have been very engaged and attentive, but there has been very little material improvement. Some trees Hon. M. Mungall: Tank you to the member for bringing and tree branches were cut down, but there are still power up this issue that’s occurring in her backyard or in her con- outages all the time. stituency. Tis is a rapidly growing area. B.C. Hydro needs to invest My understanding is that we’re dealing with two permits, in improvements for the future anyway, and it will never be one for lot 23 and one for lot 21. Te permit for lot 21 was cheaper to do so than now. I would just remind the minister that there could be stockpiling only for that site and not to that the mission statement of B.C. Hydro is “to safely provide be used on any other site, such as lot 23. Tat was what was reliable, afordable, clean electricity throughout B.C.” in the permit, written down. [2:50 p.m.] [3:00 p.m.] I’m hoping that the minister will mandate the corporation Apparently, there was a verbal understanding that they to do that in this case, frst of all by bringing a power line could use the soil that’s being stored on lot 21 for lot 23. from Agassiz to the Morris Valley to provide a secondary However, that is not actually in the permit. So we have a dis- backup power source, or to mandate B.C. Hydro to install crepancy between a verbal understanding and what is actu- and maintain a generator that will serve the area when the ally in the permit. Te ministry is taking responsibility for power fails, or to provide some other creative, permanent that. It’s going to be inspecting the sites this week. I’m happy solution to this ongoing problem. So I will give that question to make sure that the member is fully informed of the res- and assume the minister will take it on notice, and I hope to ults of that inspection and is kept in the loop with everything hear back from her soon. going on as we proceed.

Hon. M. Mungall: I just want to take a moment to recog- S. Furstenau: Tanks to the minister. Tere are a couple nize the work that B.C. Hydro workers have been doing for of problems with that position. One is that former mines inspector Ed Taje had said on record that the stockpile of Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9267 soil, as it sits on lot 21 right now, is not a suitable fnal end I’d highly recommend some core drilling to get samples of land use. So you’ve got a problem with lot 21 in that there the soil that has been stockpiled on lot 21. Tere might be are 100,000 tonnes of soil that your own mines inspector has some interesting things to discover, if you go down deep said wasn’t a suitable fnal end land use. enough. It is hundreds of feet deep. In terms of verbal, we’ve got a July 2015 Ministry of Mines On a diferent topic, Tulsequah mine. We know that the info sheet. Tis isn’t verbal. Tis is on your info sheet. It’s still Ministry of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources is tak- available. I can get a copy to the minister. In fact, I already ing steps towards a cleanup of Tulsequah. We want to keep have, but I can get another copy to her. “Te purpose of the the communication cordial and open on this fle. imported soil,” on lot 21, “is to backfll the quarry under the Te key thing we want to know is: what do they see as Mines Act permit Q-8-094,” which is for lot 23. an overall goal for the site? What comes afer the summer Finally, Al Hofman, in a letter — this is not verbal; this is site investigation? How will the remediation be funded? a letter — said: “Te intent of the soil currently on site is for What’s the time frame? What is the ultimate specifc goal reclamation purposes of the adjacent lot 23.” for this site? Here’s the problem that the Shawnigan community has [3:10 p.m.] right now. It is in the third or fourth iteration of the landfll closure plan that, as presented to the Ministry of Mines…. Hon. M. Mungall: Our overall goal is to have the site Suddenly a revenue-generating plan was introduced into the remediated. In terms of timelines, it’s hard to pin down exact closure plan, and that revenue-generating plan is to bring timelines, because they are dependent on the bankruptcy 70,000 tonnes of new soil into our watershed and deposit it process associated with the Tulsequah Chief mine. I do want there on top of the 100,000 tonnes of contaminated soil that’s to list of the things that we’ve already started doing, because currently sitting in our watershed. we’re not waiting for that process to come to an end. We want Now the Ministry of Mines is conveniently fnding out to get started on that right away. that…. “Oh, what we said and what we put on record and In November 2018, the ministry issued a request for pro- what we have told this community for nearly a decade is that posals for the development of a remediation and reclamation the soil on lot 21 is absolutely destined for lot 23.” Now that plan for the Tulsequah mine. A contractor has been selected, this new closure plan, which comes in and which needs to in collaboration with the Taku River First Nations, to under- import 70,000 tonnes in order to generate revenue, has come take this work. Te chief inspector of mines issued a fnal to light, suddenly the soil on lot 21 no longer needs to leave. notice of the ministry’s intention to enforce the Mines Act, I have a problem with that on so many levels, but the including taking any actions necessary to fully remediate. biggest one is trust in government. When a government says Te remediation and reclamation plan will support any something, when it’s in writing, when it’s in a memo, when future steps taken and ensure that necessary remediation is a community is told the same thing for ten years…. Is the implemented at the mine. Te ministry continues to mon- message to the rest of B.C. right now: “Don’t believe it”? Tis itor the bankruptcy court proceedings in Ontario, with the is how the Shawnigan community feels right now. objective of bringing a resolution to the ownership — the I’d like the minister to answer: in her view, how does this responsibility and liability for the mine property. impact trust in government? [3:05 p.m.] S. Furstenau: Tank you for that answer. Te fnal question I have is on the First Nations Mining Hon. M. Mungall: Whether it was strictly verbal — an Council and the Mineral Tenure Act. Te act is 150 years agreement orally spoken — or in the sense of letters being old, and it needs updating, particularly in light of UNDRIP. written, the key issue is that it was not in the permit. Min- I understand the ministry is starting to look at changing this istry staf made a mistake. Tey recognize that, and I recog- legislation. In our caucus, we have heard, from First Nation nize that. We’re committed to rectifying that mistake going groups, that the process, so far, has been, perhaps, not overly forward. collaborative. I just want to be clear that the ministry has not said that it’s My question for the minister is: do the minister and the okay to keep that soil there indefnitely. Rather, the ministry ministry intend to engage First Nations on the changes to is looking to rectify it. What they’re going to do is, starting the Mineral Tenure Act through the use of a joint working this week, they’re going to be inspecting the site. group, like what was done under the changes to the Environ- As I said, we’ll happily keep the member informed to mental Management Act? make sure that she can keep her constituents informed. I know that this is a very important issue to her and her con- Hon. M. Mungall: We’re in very, very, very early days stituents, and I very much want to make sure that they are on this process. Tere has been no full defnition of how kept in the loop with information, as fast as we possibly can, we’re going to be moving forward. All we’ve done, to date, going forward. is engaged with the FNEMC on a concept paper, as well as with other First Nations who are very much involved in min- S. Furstenau: I appreciate that response from the minister. 9268 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 ing. Te member for Kootenay East can tell you about the ness. Tat’s also why, when we created the fund, recogniz- Ktunaxa’s involvement, for example, in the Elk Valley. ing for the EITE, the emissions-intensive trade-exposed We’ve been working with First Nations already in these industries…. When we came up with the fund to address very, very early days, but we have not defned exactly how the competitiveness that they particularly face, we did it in we’re going to be moving forward yet. consultation with them. [3:15 p.m.] In terms of do I think that this fund is a good thing and is it going to do the job of addressing competitiveness on T. Shypitka: When we were here at the end of the day…. this particular item, I’d say yes, and the reason I say yes is We stopped on carbon pricing, the carbon tax. Te con- because we did that collaboration. We did that work with versation was interesting. Te minister refused to relay the industry, and we actually have a process to monitor its suc- thought that carbon pricing, the carbon tax, was in any cess going forward. way negative to the industry in British Columbia on a global scale. I found that very, very interesting. As a matter T. Shypitka: Well, you know, this is black and white. One of fact, I think at one point, she said that the industry was of the biggest consultants in B.C. or in Canada, in black happy. At the end of the day, she said: “Te carbon pricing and white, states that the biggest hurdle is carbon pricing to creates incentives for reducing GHGs. I think that is a very industry globally. Te minister refuses…. She keeps going good thing. I know that industry is very happy, from what back to the consultation, and that’s great. Te Mining Jobs they tell me.” Task Force is under government purview, so it’s not surpris- Well, I guess the frst question is: has the minister read the ing that the recommendations would lean to policy that’s EY report, the Ernst and Young report of September 2018 already in place. I get that. We want to try to play along. But entitled B.C. Mining and Exploration Industry: An Assess- by the same token, this is cost to the industry. Tis is not ment of Performance Impact and Competitiveness? rocket science. Cost is what drives demand and purchasing of the products we produce. Hon. M. Mungall: Te question was whether I have read All right. Well, another thing…. I’ll leave that. I’ll go a the report. Yes, I’ve read the report. Ministry staf have read little bit into something else. the report, and it was very much important to our Mining Te minister also said: “In terms of: does the carbon tax Jobs Task Force. As the member knows, it was referred to by allow for competitiveness…? I think the better groups to ask our Mining Jobs Task Force in their fnal report. We had that are the large mining operations in the province who work discussion on Tursday. on a global scale.” Tat’s a good suggestion. So I did a little searching, and from just this year, on the Select Standing T. Shypitka: Well, it wasn’t a trick question. I always fnd Committee on Finance, Teck Coal estimates that the contin- it kind of amazing that the minister would have to ask if she ued full exposure to the historical $30 a tonne of CO2 emis- read the report or not. Anyway, in the report, it mentions the sions would result in an entrenched $50 million a year car- carbon tax: “the single largest hurdle for industry compet- bon tax cost in B.C. itiveness in B.C.” Even with programs such as the CleanBC So there we have it. We have one of the most reputable program, which the minister alluded to was the ofset to the business management consultants in Canada that are in carbon tax for industry carbon tax rebates, the report notes business being connected to big business, and the second that the EITE sector still remains uncompetitive with other coming from the largest diversifed resource company in jurisdictions. Canada, both stating that this is uncompetitive for B.C. We Te question to the minister is: does the minister agree sufer geological disadvantages, geographic disadvantages. that the EITE sector remains uncompetitive with other jur- For coal, for example, we look at Western Australia. Geo- isdictions, even with the CleanBC program? graphically, to port from where they grab their ore is very [3:20 p.m.] close. Tey have a big advantage on us there. We’re behind the eight ball. So to put fscal policy and to Hon. M. Mungall: When the former B.C. Liberal govern- put us even farther behind the eight ball with an increasing ment brought in the carbon tax at $30 a tonne, they knew carbon tax is, understandably, negative to competitiveness in that that wasn’t the only thing that was impacting compet- British Columbia. itiveness. I think we all know that there’s a variety of things I guess as far as environmental standards in the world go, that impact competitiveness for any industry: labour, tax, we’re doing well. I think when the $30 carbon tax came in, transportation costs, commodity pricing, regulatory envir- it proved that we did reduce emissions. It’s been stated many onment, and so on. times before. I think it was efective. So I guess the question What we’ve done as a government is…. When we want to the minister is: what jurisdiction, other than British Col- to address competitiveness, we all know that that’s very umbia, has higher environmental standards and carbon pri- important for the well-being of B.C.’s economy, and that’s cing, more than British Columbia does already? exactly why we have a process that we established with the [3:25 p.m.] B.C. Business Council to continually monitor competitive- Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9269

Hon. M. Mungall: I don’t want to take up the member’s the eight ball against these countries right now. Also, as far question time with going through an exhaustive list of all the as coal goes, our ore grades aren’t quite as good as the ore diferent jurisdictions in the world that have carbon pricing grades in Western Australia, so we have that geological dis- and how that applies to what in their jurisdiction, and so on, advantage as well as a geographical disadvantage. or how they might have more stringent environmental reg- I’m trying to fnd some way, with government, to ease ulations than we do and how that bears out for their indus- up on fscal policy, to try to reduce something we do have tries. I don’t think that’s where he wants to go. control over. We can’t control where our mines are and What I do want to say to the member, though, is that we how close they are to port, but we can control how we are always monitoring what’s going on in other jurisdictions price carbon. and how B.C. is competitive to those activities in other jur- Tis is what I’ve been trying to get through to the min- isdictions. We now have an even more formal process to do ister and trying to get her to accept the fact that even the that, not just within government but in partnership with the Ernst and Young report, Teck Coal and everybody I talk to B.C. Business Council. in industry have the same thoughts — that carbon pricing is a disadvantage to competitiveness. Te minister doesn’t T. Shypitka: Well, I’ve been monitoring, and I say that want to accept that. It keeps foating around that it’s in har- the B.C. jurisdiction has one of the toughest environmental mony with other things that make us better, but it’s just not standards in the world and the highest price on carbon. Can the truth. the minister prove me wrong? I’m going to skip to something else, because we’re short on time. Earlier in the day, I sent the minister and the staf, on Hon. M. Mungall: Tat is the member’s opinion, in the Davidson deposit…. I wanted to ask some questions on terms of environmental regulations. In terms of the carbon that. Te staf already has the questions. I just wanted to see pricing, again, other jurisdictions will have higher carbon if they were ready to answer those questions I had. pricing, but it might not apply to everything that we put carbon pricing on. Terefore, we’d start comparing apples Hon. M. Mungall: Recognizing time constraints, the and oranges. I don’t know if that’s how the member wants answers are already compiled. Tey’re quite lengthy. We can to be using his time. email the answers to the member so he has them. I could read them into the record. Or I could try to make a quick T. Shypitka: Not at all. Let’s narrow the scope even more. summation of them with more time. I wanted to check in For coal, let’s say Western Australia, and for copper, let’s say with the member frst, in terms of how he’d like to proceed, Chile. How are we not better than our main competitors in recognizing time constraints. coal with Western Australia and in copper for Chile? [3:30 p.m.] T. Shypitka: Well, let’s give it a shot here. Let’s go for ques- tion 1 here. Why, when the MTO registry showed an exten- Hon. M. Mungall: Like I said earlier, so many things sion to 2040…? I believe that application was made in 2016 infuence competitiveness. And as I said earlier, we are work- for a mine extension. I think the MTO showed a 21-year ing with the B.C. Business Council to constantly monitor extension from 2019 to 2040, so it was a 20-year extension. competitiveness. Carbon tax is involved in that. Te carbon It showed on the MTO. Tat extension to 2040 — why were tax with the jurisdictions, in terms of how it impacts copper, those documents altered? how it impacts met coal, is part of that monitoring. Tat’s exactly what we’re doing right now. Hon. M. Mungall: Tese are very technical answers, so I don’t want to start speculating what the outcome of that I will read these out for the member. No records were ever monitoring is going to be. But sufce to say we are working purged from MTO. Section 6.36 of the Mineral Tenure Act with the B.C. Business Council specifcally on met coal and allows the chief gold commissioner to delete or amend an on copper. entry in the registry if the registry does not comply with the act or regulations. T. Shypitka: Te trouble I have right now is that this is MTO event number 5669223, which is registered on min- a fercely competitive market. Our best national interests ing leases 243475, 243476, 243477, 243478 and 243479, and our economy of British Columbia hinges on whether shows lease term renewal applications were for a term expiry or not we’re competitive with the rest of the world. I would date of January 10, 2040, and the new lease term expiry date hope the minister would know where we stand in the of January 20, 2025, as a result of the decision to grant the pecking order of competitiveness in the world. I think it’s six-year lease term renewals. a basic question that should be shovel-ready to go to say: [3:35 p.m.] “Tese are our downsides.” Western Australia doesn’t have a carbon tax. Chile has, I T. Shypitka: Te extension was clearly shown on the think, a $5 a tonne carbon tax. Tey have quicker access to MTO, when it was frst applied, as a 2040 expiration. Ten, market. Tey have better fscal policy. We are so far behind in September of 2017, I believe, the extension was rolled 9270 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

back to six years, to 2025, manually altered. I don’t under- Te reason for that is because they wanted to be able to stand the minister’s answer there. It was clearly altered. secure the actual regulatory work. Tey wanted to be able to Tere’s documentation. I’ve sent the ministry loads of doc- secure information in terms of their exploratory work, and uments. so on, before they actually went ahead with the full lease. Tis has been going on for over a year now — that I’ve What’s being decided on here, from my perspective, is that been addressing this fle. We’ve actually had a teleconference the chief gold commissioner is making a decision in terms of with the chief gold commissioner. We have given the min- land use. We want to have a better understanding of wheth- istry lots of time to answer our questions, and we’re not er this will actually move into full production before a long- really getting an answer. term lease is given. What I’ll do is I’ll ask another question. Why was the decision report not immediately provided to the lessee? T. Shypitka: Well, that didn’t even remotely answer my question. Te question was: is there any other example of a Hon. M. Mungall: I believe I have this correct. When the mine of this magnitude that’s had to go to a six-year mine application went forward for the mining leases…. I apolo- extension other than the traditional 20 to 30? Te minister gize on behalf of the ministry. It wasn’t clear enough to the is probably not willing to answer my question. Te answer is person applying that confrmation of receipt of the applic- zero. Tere has never been — unless the minister can stand ation was not the same as approval of the application. So up and tell me something diferent. I haven’t heard it from when a change was made under section 6.36 of the Mineral the chief gold commissioner. I’m not hearing it from the Tenure Act, which allows the chief gold commissioner to do minister in her answers. So it just begs the question: why this so, it may have caused some confusion. A decision had not project? Why now? What is going on? been made, and once it was made, it was not until 2040 but, rather, until 2025. Hon. M. Mungall: As far as we can tell, there’s no project. Te member’s question about why the decision report was Tere’s no mine. Just a requirement to tie up land for a long- not immediately provided to the lessee…. Te reports are term lease. And the chief gold commissioner has decided provided upon request and are not automatic. that that’s not in the best interests of how to use that land.

T. Shypitka: Tis fle has been pretty active. Te pro- T. Shypitka: So is this a new policy? Tis is something ponent, the applicant, has been more than patient. I’ve never heard of, that the ministry can arbitrarily decide [3:40 p.m.] whether to roll back an extension that’s already been Te Davidson deposit has been around for quite a long approved to see how they see things best ft. Where is the cri- time — I think starting back in 1957. It’s a world-class moly teria for mining lease extensions? mine with good grade, good-quality…. You know, commod- ity prices aren’t where they were, but there’s been over $50 Hon. M. Mungall: Just to be clear on this, the chief gold million that’s been sunk into this property. commissioner didn’t change their decision. Te extension Historically speaking, mine extensions on applications are just wasn’t approved. But to answer the member’s question anywhere from 20 to 30 years. Tis is the time that a pro- about the criteria for mining lease extensions, section 42(5) ponent needs, an applicant needs, to bring in investment, on provides the authority for the chief gold commissioner to certainty of the project. To alter the application or alter the renew the term of the lease. Te chief gold commissioner’s extension from 21 years to six years is a total slap in the face written responses provide an explanation for the decision to these people. Tis is their livelihoods on the line. made. An application for the renewal of the term of a mining Tis is something that, I believe, is unprecedented. Can lease must be registered in Mineral Titles Online by the less- the minister tell me if there’s ever been a mine extension of ee or the agent. this size and magnitude that’s been given an extension of six years? T. Shypitka: It goes back to the same question I had before. Where has this ever been done before? Tis is a frst Hon. M. Mungall: With this deposit, there’s been no mine on me. It’s a frst on the applicant. And apparently the min- activity. Tere’s been no notice of work, no EA. Te pro- istry can’t dispute it. ponent, what he’d like to have is a long-term lease yet has not Te last question before we go for the break here. Why demonstrated that he’s going to be moving forward with any is there no arbitration process for disagreements with the of the work to actually make it a productive mine. Crown? Individual mining leaseholders are lef having to I’ll give a couple of examples. For example, both Brucejack incur signifcant costs to obtain legal counsel, while the gov- and Ajax went through their notice of work, they went ernment uses taxpayers’ dollars for their legal counsel. through the EA process, and then they sought the lease so [3:50 p.m.] that they could actually move forward with the mining — the actual production activity. Hon. M. Mungall: Te Mineral Tenure Act does not pro- [3:45 p.m.] vide for an arbitration process. Rather, statutory decision– Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9271 makers’ decisions are therefore subject to judicial review by on why that’s the case is that we are currently in the process the B.C. Supreme Court. Where arbitration processes do of doing the program design for this. We are in collaboration exist, however, in provincial statutes, the province does not with the Ministry of Energy as well as industry. So industry pay legal costs of private parties who participate in such is being able to have some input on this as well. arbitrations. P. Milobar: When the carbon tax went from $30 to $35 a P. Milobar: I’ve got a few questions for the minister tonne, because of the lag of reporting, a decision was made around CleanBC. I’ve asked both the Minister of Environ- to refund 100 percent back to industry to get them back ment and the Finance Minister some of these questions. down to the $30. Tey are now paying, as of April 1, $40 a Tey referred me over here as well. I just want to make sure tonne. Te program that was going to determine world-lead- that we cover all our bases on these topics. ing and how to start claiming back to go from $40 to $30 was Earlier we were hearing about carbon taxation, and I supposed to be in place late last fall. Tat was the frst answer know there’s the program that’s incoming for carbon to go I believe I got. Ten it was in the spring, and now there’s not from $50 to $30 back down for trade-exposed and energy- even an end date. intensive industry. However, we don’t know when that will As industry keeps marching and trying to fgure out what be, and they have to meet world-leading standards. Certainly the ground rules will be on what their benchmark is, they mining and energy industry companies would like to know. are paying $40 a tonne. Tere’s been no assurances that they When I canvassed the Minister of Environment around would receive a decision like they saw when it went to $35 a this topic, the minister had indicated…. Tis Minister is tonne, which was, in the absence of any new policy in place, also a signatory to the LNG project and commitments that that would be dialed back for them to the $30. under that program. In that program, my understanding Ten is the minister saying that in the absence of any clear is that although the operating permit for LNG Canada parameters for industry to be able to try to claim back from is at 0.15, the Minister of Finance indicated 0.22 to 0.28 $40 to $30 that that program won’t be extended this coming would probably be the landing point for what would be year as well, and that industry that previously qualifed for considered world-leading. the rebate to go from $35 to $30 now qualifes automatically Te Minister of Environment confrmed that, indeed, to go from $40 back down to $30? LNG Canada would be able to purchase carbon ofsets. So if they were operating at 0.28 and that had been deemed to be Hon. M. Mungall: I can’t comment exactly on what the world-leading, they could purchase ofsets to get themselves dialogue was between the member and the Minister of back down to 0.15. And indeed, those ofsets could be pur- Environment or the Minister of Finance specifcally on the chased anywhere in the world on an open market. rebate program, but it is a Finance question, and that’s not You could be buying $3 Malaysian tree farm carbon cred- something we are equipped to answer here for him today. its to qualify for your $20-a-tonne refund from the taxpayers But I will let him know that Finance, Environment and my of British Columbia on your carbon. In fact, it would apply ministry, as well as industry, are working on this program, to the full tonnage that you’ve created. So you’d only have to as I said in my last answer, and are collaborating very thor- buy ofsets for half of what you’ve created, and you would oughly on it. actually get 100 percent of the $20 back of your full tonnage of of the operation, which would actually then create about P. Milobar: Well, it is concerning that there were agree- $1.50 carbon credit per tonne overall produced, to receive ments negotiated with LNG where to be able to meet the your $20 taxpayer-funded carbon tax refund. world-class standard, carbon ofsets are allowed to be pur- Te question I have to the minister is: when will industry chased at an open market rate with no minimum purchase know what is considered world-leading for their industries price. — specifcally mining and the energy industry, for this min- [4:00 p.m.] ister? Also, is it indeed the case that not only this minister I know I’ve canvassed the Ministers of Environment and but other ministers did not negotiate a ceiling, a minimum Education about the fact the public sector organizations will carbon ofset purchase price, for LNG Canada? And by still have to buy, by law, $25 ofsets of the Ministry of Envir- extension, will that then apply to any other industry that onment, yet industry, to qualify for a $20-a-tonne refund qualifes for this carbon tax refund, from $50 down to the from the taxpayers, can purchase it on the open market. Te existing $30 that it started this program under? If the minis- government did not see ft to negotiate that into the LNG ter could clarify that. deal. Why that’s important is because the LNG…. [3:55 p.m.] We’ve heard in other estimates that all other industry will be treated the same as that LNG deal, which means that all Hon. M. Mungall: Well, I’m sorry to say to the member other industry is open to that same type of ofset program. that for this year we don’t have a lot of answers to his ques- Tat means there’s no real on-the-ground incentive to meet tions. Next year he’ll have lots of material for questions, and your target, world-leading, if you can go out and buy on an we’ll be happy to provide greater detailed answers. Te reas- open market $3 credits. Tat would actually translate closer 9272 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 to $1.50 by the time you do the excess original carbon that $100,000. From Monday at around three o’clock in the afer- they would be producing, the GHGs they’d be producing, noon to this Monday at around three o’clock in the afer- and get a cheque for $20. noon, it went from $3.9 million to $1.5 million. It’s dropped I would suggest that for any industry, that’s a pretty good $2.4 million in seven days. It’s on last year’s money still, but rate of return. If you ofered anybody right now, today, in this that should run out by the end of this week, at this current room and said, “If you give me $3, I’ll give you $20 as you rate, unless the $42 million gets injected in. Before it runs walk out the door,” I think most people would take you up out of money, they’ll have to put a pause on it. on that ofer. We know there was a pause waiting for May 1 for the fed- Tat’s what we’re seeing with industry. Industry has an eral money to start matching and be put into the program. access point to very low carbon ofsets, under this plan, Te question I have is…. It’s funded to the point now, under this LNG agreement and under this CleanBC agree- at $42 million, that there are 17½ weeks based on this last ment, and they have full access to signifcant taxpayer dollars week’s volume of funding — 17½ weeks out of a budget that’s to the tune of somewhere in the neighbourhood of $280 mil- supposed to account for 156 weeks for three years. lion to $290 million over the next three years, as we see this [4:05 p.m.] phased in. Can the minister explain where the extra money for the Tere are $168 million identifed in CleanBC, and the clean vehicle program is supposed to come from 18 weeks Minister of Environment has confrmed that it’s going to from now when it’s completely drained and out of money? take about another $120 million to $140 million of the contingency fund to actually fully fund the industry of- Hon. M. Mungall: Our zero-emission vehicle rebate pro- sets. Tat’s without LNG on line and operational. So gram has been hugely successful. Te member is correct to they’re not even tapping into that original $280 million or point that out. It goes to show the demand in British Colum- so that is in there. bia for zero-emission vehicles. In fact, in 2018, 4 percent of I’ll look forward to getting further clarifcation, and I will all new vehicles sold were zero-emission vehicles. So abso- keep an eye out to make sure that industry, if there is no pro- lutely, there is a large demand. gram in place at $40 a tonne, will get treated the same as they Te focus that the member has put on the last couple of did at $35 a tonne, in the absence of any clear direction from weeks, though, is a bit of an anomaly in terms of what hap- government, and that they will have full access to the refund pens throughout the year in purchasing behaviour. Te reas- — to go from $40 to $30. on why is that a lot of people slowed down their purchases — In terms of CleanBC, there are a couple of other areas, as did not go to their local car dealer to make a purchase, even well, under the minister’s purview. A lot of it is around elec- though they were intending to — because they were waiting tric vehicles. for the federal government’s rebates to come on line, which In CleanBC, there is about $89 million with electric they did on May 1. vehicle programming, between charging stations, incentive Suddenly, we saw a massive increase in activity around programs for purchases and some other programming that purchasing zero-emission vehicles. It has already started to will only result in 0.3 megatonnes of GHG emission reduc- taper of, as those people who were waiting have now pur- tions by 2030 — 0.3 out of an 18.9 target. We won’t even talk chased their vehicles. We’re starting to see that purchasing about the missing 6.1 tonnes on the total 25 megatonne tar- slow. We don’t anticipate to have the same type of sales hap- get. Out of that, $42 million is actually for the electric vehicle pen throughout the rest of the year. program. Tat being said, we are continually monitoring the Now, why that’s signifcant is that’s $42 million total for all demand for zero-emission vehicles, and therefore, the point- three years. Last year and in supplemental estimates, when of-sale rebates. As we monitor that, we do have contingen- I questioned the minister around this program…. From the cies. Te Minister of Finance gave you an answer in terms September 2017 budget update that the new government of how much is in contingencies to top-up this program. We brought in, to the end of fscal, April 1 of this year, the gov- certainly don’t want to see it go down to zero. We have, actu- ernment had put $57 million into the clean energy vehicle ally, plans to top-up the program should we need. program to try to make the end-of-the-year number, to If we do, I think it highlights, again, just how successful make sure it didn’t run out of money. this program is and how much British Columbians are look- Seven days ago almost to the hour, when I questioned the ing to reduce their carbon emissions through their own pur- Minister of Finance about this apparent lack of enough fund- chasing choices, in terms of the vehicles that they drive. ing to get through three years, given that there’s only $42 million for one out of the three years — and we’ve already P. Milobar: Well, that’s a puzzling answer, frankly. Te burned through $57 million in about 17 months — there federal program kicked in 12 days ago. I don’t know how we was about $3.9 million remaining in the clean energy vehicle are suddenly charting that things have slowed down, given fund. It’s a real-time-type ticker. that people have only had access to it for 12 days and, in the In fact, as we’ve been sitting here, as I’ve been waiting to last seven days, have taken $2.4 million out of the program ask questions over the last hour, it’s actually dropped almost — $100,000 in the last hour, as we’re sitting here. Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9273

[4:10 p.m.] fgure is? Is that the overall plan of CleanBC to achieve Te reality is that these factors were known when this that 1.3? It seems like there’s money budgeted, $3 million budget was created. When CleanBC’s budgeting was created, budgeted, to bring in legislation mandating manufacturers the minister would have already known that $57 million was to sell electric vehicles, and there’s about $89 million, with needed to try to keep it solvent to fscal year-end. no future funding identifed, for a quarter of the same result Even if there’s a bit of a slowdown, $42 million over to get past the hump of when the legislation is in place. three years for CleanBC identifed within a three-year [4:15 p.m.] budget, while they’re going to supplemental estimates for $57 million, would indicate not very prudent budgeting Hon. M. Mungall: Te $42 million is budgeted for this for CleanBC. fscal. We have access to, as the Minister of Finance said, I say this because CleanBC has been held up as a fully fun- up to $37.3 million in contingencies for this program. Tat ded plan, a fully funded plan that will see the government actually exceeds the $57 million we had to do supplementary collect $2.35 billion of carbon taxation increases, from $30 estimates for, from the September 2017 budget update until to $50, when you add the four years together — $2.35 billion the end of the fscal year that ended on March 31. with a $900 million plan. A $900 million plan with $299 mil- I think that for this fscal year, we have budgeted accord- lion in contingency. ingly to where demand may be. We’ve created a system Te Minister of Environment has already acknowledged where we’re going to be monitoring, in case demand is high- that about $180 million to $190 million of that is going to er than we anticipate, and we have access to a good contin- be needed for heavy industry for their ofsets. Te Minister gency for that. of Finance has indicated now that at least $37 million of that As the Minister of Finance told the member, we are mon- has been earmarked for the electric vehicle program. I would itoring this from year to year. Tings are shifing, because suggest that with only $110 million lef and 2½ years of time, demand is growing. We want to make sure that we are meet- the minister is probably going to need every penny of that ing demand. But maybe demand might not be there any- $110 million of remaining contingency fund. more, because market saturation has actually occurred and Why that’s incredibly important is because…. In Clean- price points have dropped for zero-emission vehicles, and we BC’s own language, from the government, it says: “Con- actually have a healthy number of them on the road to keep tingencies. In addition to funding for specifc initiatives them at a lower price point, so therefore, rebates won’t trig- detailed in this table, government has allocated contingen- ger the type of consumer demand that we need. cies funding over the fscal plan to provide for future pro- It would be imprudent, in my view, to budget further out gramming and new initiatives as they are developed.” Te and think that everything is going to stay static for that peri- reality is the contingencies are…. It sounds like they are od of time when we are actually in an area, in terms of con- going to be taken up 100 percent by the electric vehicle pro- sumer demand and consumer behaviour, that is quite nas- gram and by the industry program. cent and is shifing. We have $89 million earmarked for 0.3 of a reduction by 2030, and we have no funding identifed to keep the elec- P. Milobar: Well, the manufacturers — and I’ve talked to tric vehicle program running through the three years to get a great many of them, both in Vancouver and on the phone us that 0.3. Yet the line above, for $3 million, is all about from Ontario — are not sure where the government gets the implementing and legislation for this CEV standard. Tat claim that there’s going to be a tipping point where the price will achieve a 1.3 megatonne reduction, according to Clean- point in the next few years is going to be the same if not BC. So $89 million with no future dollars attached for 0.3, cheaper for electric vehicles. Frankly, we’re a very small mar- and $3 million is going to achieve four times that. ket, on the North American scale of things. California is lar- Te worry is that once the legislation comes forward, ger than the whole Canadian market. then…. Of course, with million-dollar fnes for automakers Tere is trouble in jurisdictions with getting access to if they don’t hit sales targets, it now becomes the automakers’ the vehicles, which means there’s a supply-demand issue to problem. We know that in Ontario’s case, when they stopped begin with, and that does not seem to be ceasing any time the subsidization of vehicles, the sales stopped immediately. soon. So the fact that a program that’s supposed to be one of Te question I ask is for the minister. By their own docu- the signature programs of CleanBC does not have any for- ment with CleanBC, they’re supposed to have half a million ward-looking budgetary numbers in it does make one start cars on the road by 2030. Tey have enough money for one to think that the route the government would prefer to take more year in the budget. Tere’s about $150 million a year is the legislation hammer versus the incentive carrot for the missing for subsidization to get to the half a million cars, and consumer. Tat’s why there are the concerns out there that half a million cars is still a drop in the bucket to our over- this is where it seems to be headed. all feet. It’s only about 9 or 10 percent of the overall feet of In terms of the other parts of CleanBC that the minister vehicles in the province. is responsible for, I notice there’s the fuel additive, the E20 Is the minister saying that the plan is to keep incentivizing standard, that will be coming into play. I’m just wondering. once the legislation is in place, regardless of what the dollar I may have missed it. We’re almost done the spring session. 9274 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

I’m just wondering which bill that we’ve currently either Hon. M. Mungall: What our conversations with a refnery debated or that is on the docket currently has the legislation. in Prince George specifcally are yielding is that in terms It says here, “legislation in 2019,” so I’m assuming that would of the…. What I understand the member to be asking is be happening in the spring session. I may have missed it, so the impact on price that the low-carbon fuel standard might I’m not sure which bill that legislation was in, for the new have. Until recently, it didn’t seem to be having any impact fuel standard. on price, but most recently, in this calendar year, there might [4:20 p.m.] be a one- or two-cent diference between British Columbia and Alberta in terms of that price point and how the low- Hon. M. Mungall: Te member was asking questions carbon fuel standard might impact it. about our low-carbon fuel standard and legislation around In terms of what’s going on with the other price increase that. Te legislation already exists. We’d be making amend- — the extent of the price increase that we’re seeing, particu- ments to that. In the fall, we will be sitting, according to the larly for the Lower Mainland — it looks like the carbon fuel legislative calendar, so the fall will have legislation. standard does not have any signifcant impact. We are presently in consultation with industry stakehold- ers about the low-carbon fuel standard, which would be a P. Milobar: Sorry. I’m a little confused by that answer. Is 20 percent carbon intensity reduction. Tat is diferent from the minister saying, Mr. Chair, that the refneries are cur- what the member was saying. I just want to put that on rently making the low-fuel standard in sufcient quantities the record. He was talking about an E20, which is what the and that’s how the minister would know that there should Americans use in terms of an ethanol blend. Tat would not be any efect on price? My question was around the mod- be 20 percent blended with ethanol, and we’re not solely elling for if this volume was being created for the B.C. market focused on ethanol blend but rather on a carbon intensity so — a volume that doesn’t currently exist, a blend that doesn’t we meet our low-carbon fuel standards. currently exist. Like I said, we’re in consultation with industry stakehold- Te minister made sure to point out at the beginning that ers and looking forward to bringing legislation for consider- E20 is ethanol. I recognize that, and all the research I’ve been ation before legislative counsel, before the legislative review looking into would indicate that ethanol, for the most part, is committee, and of course, before House leaders. Hopefully actually the cheaper way to blend to get that fuel standard. In we’ll see some legislation this fall. Tat’s what we’re working fact, as you start looking at wood source and other types of towards. biomass to try to create the fuel blends, the costs do, almost uniformly in agreement, actually go up. P. Milobar: Tank you for that. Te reason I’m asking questions in this particular area…. It’s four megatonnes out [R. Leonard in the chair.] of 18.9, so it’s about 21 percent of the overall CleanBC plan. It hinges on this fuel standard. If you add that with the miss- Te question is: what modelling has been done by the ing 25 percent, you’re at almost 47 percent of CleanBC’s tar- ministry to show what the price per litre for the consumer, get. Tat’s assuming LNG Canada operates at 3.45 mega- under this fuel standard, will go up? It’s not based on what tonnes, yet we know they’re permitted for 26 megatonnes. current price spikes are going on or anything like that, but Teir operating permit allows for up to 26 megatonnes, and there has to be, especially…. As the minister pointed out, this we know that they can buy ofsets to make sure that they stay isn’t intended to use ethanol, which is actually the cheaper within their operating parameters of 26 megatonnes. If they manufacturing product. In fact, it’s cheaper than the feed- start to exceed 3.45 megatonnes, then CleanBC is completely stock of the crude going in for a lot of cases. Tis is actually blown out of the water. talking about putting a feedstock of biofuel of some sort into However, with the new fuel standard, I’m wondering what the mix, which comes as an added cost. Tere has to be an modelling has been done. I’m well aware that Parkland up in added manufacturing cost. Prince George — those two refneries — has been working What modelling has been done to show what this fuel mix with the province around looking at some technologies and will cost per litre at the pump? Not getting into the politics ways to look at diferent fuel sources to make the blend work. of record-high prices or anything like that — just standard I also understand the blend doesn’t currently exist in manufacturing cost diferentials. western Canada. California sounds like they might have We do live in a province that loves custom-made cofee, some, but we don’t get much of our actual refned fuel and those come at a little more expensive cost than just get- from California. ting a plain drip cofee. We love our craf beers. Tose come I’m just wondering if the minister could shed some light at a higher cost, typically speaking. One would have to think on what modelling has been done to this point on what the that our artisanal blend of B.C. fuel is going to come at premium per litre, at the fuel pump for the customer, is going an added cost, so I’m just wondering what that added cost to be with this new fuel standard. would be. Surely, if the manufacturers could be producing [4:25 p.m.] that cheaper right now during record-high gas prices, they Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9275

probably would be, and the consumers would already be see- refect production increasing, specifcally as a result of great- ing it at the pump at a lower cost. er manufacturing capacity at those two year-marks — the [4:30 p.m.] 2025 and 2030.

Hon. M. Mungall: We know how a low-carbon fuel stand- P.Milobar: With CleanBC, it’s supposed to be a 25-mega- ard has impacted price in the past. Tis isn’t new legislation tonne plan. We have a missing 25 percent, 6.1 megatonnes, or a brand-new step forward. It’s something that B.C. has that we may or may not know…. It’ll be very close to the next already been doing. scheduled general election before we know what that miss- In terms of going forward with ramping it up and the ing 25 percent looks like. type of modelling that the member is asking about, we’re in [5:00 p.m.] the process of developing that with industry right now. We We have a clean fuel standard. Tat accounts for about want to make sure that as we develop that modelling, the 21 or 22 percent of the overall plan, and we’re hearing 2025 things that we’re considering, of course, are always cost to and beyond for milestones. So there is no milestone with this the consumer — so that price point at the pump — but also: clean fuel standard before the next scheduled general elec- what are some of the easiest pathways to compliance so that tion in the fall of 2021? industry is meeting the low-carbon fuel standard? Te mem- ber talked about ethanol and it being a more efcient and Hon. M. Mungall: Just to clarify, what I was saying is that better way to achieve that low-carbon fuel standard. Tat for all the diferent types of renewable fuels, it would reduce may be the case, and that’s just exactly the types of conversa- the carbon intensity going into our fuels. It’s incremental tions that we’re having with industry. except for two milestones with renewable diesel. Tere are On that note, Chair, I request that we take a 15-minute milestones associated only with renewable diesel. Otherwise, recess. everything is incremental up until 2030.

Te Chair: Tis committee is recessed for 15 minutes. P. Milobar: Tank you to the minister for that. I under- stand that, but 2025 is the frst check-in point, milestone Te committee recessed from 4:33 p.m. to 4:55 p.m. date. My question is…. Tere’s the 25 percent, which I recog- [R. Leonard in the chair.] nize may or may not impact the minister’s responsibilities, with no real plan for that until afer, essentially, the next P. Milobar: Just another question or two for the minister scheduled general election in the fall of 2021. Twenty-two with clean energy B.C. and the fuel standards. percent of the plan is directly under the minister’s purview It’s a little disconcerting that in a time of record fuel prices, here with the low fuel standard. In fact, if we add the electric we have a piece in CleanBC that’s going to account for over vehicles and others, it would be much higher than that. 20 percent of the target for CleanBC to be considered suc- To confrm, then, there is no way for the public to fgure cessful or not, and there’s no actual costing ahead of time in out if CleanBC is on track, if CleanBC’s low fuel standard place for understanding what the ramifcations to the gener- and if any of these measures are actually working with the al public are. desired result, as we march to a $50 carbon tax. Tere is no I say that because, in CleanBC, there’s also the step code measurable check-in reference point for the public on any of provisions, which, when you talk to homebuilders, will add the programs the minister is responsible for that anyone can about $70,000 to the average home if it becomes legislated equate success or failure of the CleanBC plan ahead of the to the highest step, for about 1½ percent increase in energy next general election. efciency. Now we hear that there hasn’t been full costing for consumers, in terms of this fuel standard. Hon. M. Mungall: Te Ministry of Environment is To accomplish the four-megatonne reduction by 2030, is responsible for the accountability framework that’s associ- there a timeline set out for when this fuel needs to be hitting ated with CleanBC. Tat’s something, actually, I’m very the market? Is it predicated — the four megatonnes — that in proud of this government for doing. As I’ve been telling my 2029, the switch fips and everyone starts pumping that fuel constituents, part of CleanBC is an accountability compon- standard and that will get us our four megatonnes? Or is it ent, where we actually will have a committee who is review- meant to be an incremental increase of that fuel over sever- ing our ability to achieve our overall goal and reporting out al years to get us to that four-megatonne reduction? I hope I on an annual basis. made my question clear for the minister. We, obviously, will be feeding into that accountability framework on the programs that are associated with this Hon. M. Mungall: Te timeline for our low-carbon fuel ministry. For the low-carbon fuel standard, I’ve already standard and making the switch to lower carbon in our fuel talked about how we’re going to be bringing in legislation, is incremental. But there are a couple of milestones for ideally this fall, in 2019. Tat’s the time frame that this min- renewable diesel. Tose would be 2025 and 2030. Tat would istry is working towards. Part of that legislation will be the 9276 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 regulatory regime. Tat would also have compliance as part trial incentives that may be coming into place. Surely, there of that regulatory regime. must be a time lag of reporting, as well, for the fuel people to We will be reporting out on those regulations, as well, to be able to report. the public as part of that accountability framework of Clean- We’re 2019 fall. You’re going to be spring of 2020 at the BC that is under the Ministry of Environment. earliest, and then you’re going to need a time lag of report- [5:05 p.m.] ing. It does not sound like there will be any discernible data for the public to actually know whether or not CleanBC P. Milobar: Will the regulations be part of the package is working and the responsibilities that this minister is with legislation? As we’ve seen with most other legislation responsible for are actually achieving any of their intended at this point, including the CEV program legislation that’s targets or their modelling, even in this short window of time. currently in front of the House, there’s lots lef to regulation, and that regulation gets fgured out afer the fact. Will it be Hon. M. Mungall: I have full confdence that the opposi- concurrent, or will the regulation around the legislation be tion will have a lot of things to say about CleanBC well ahead fgured out afer the legislation is passed? of the next election.

Hon. M. Mungall: Just to go over the process of how reg- P. Milobar: Frankly, that’s a ridiculous answer. Tis is ulation is made following legislation, regulations cannot be about the public. Tis is about the public trying to actually made in advance. Tey follow from the legislation. Te legis- know…. Tere has been much reviewing of previous climate lation allows those regulations to actually be made. So you plans, climate strategies. When carbon tax was at $30 a don’t table legislation and regulations at the exact same time. tonne, we were taxing 41.6 megatonnes of GHG emissions. Tat would be pre-empting any potential amendments that At $35, it was still at 41.7. And now at $40, $45 and $50, it could happen from the foor in the House that are part of actually moves up by a megatonne a year and tops out at 44 second reading or a part of the committee stage. So no, that’s megatonnes. At the same time, a new CleanBC plan is being not how the process works. brought in, supposedly doing more to bring down emissions. So none of the documents that the government has tabled P. Milobar: I kind of knew that, but I wanted the minister actually mesh. to clarify that for sure. Te reason I ask is we’re looking at When you ask questions of the other ministers, they pass a fall 2019 piece of legislation for this fuel standard, which the buck from minister to minister. Te Minister of Environ- is 21, 22 percent of the overall CleanBC reduction targets. ment has said that, well, he has nothing to do with the num- We then need to wait for regulation to come forward and bers, in terms of dollars. “Talk to the Minister of Finance.” be enforced and enacted, and then you need to wait for a [5:10 p.m.] sufcient reporting cycle to fgure out if, in fact, it’s being Te Minister of Environment made it very clear in his followed and being implemented by industry and sellers of town halls that he is the minister responsible for CleanBC. fuels and everyone else. Yet when I asked about these specifc areas, the minister Back to my question, then, around a reference point for made it very clear that, oh, he’s the minister responsible the public to understand if the goals and the ideals of Clean- for the overarching piece of CleanBC. Te minister today is BC are actually meeting their targeted objectives. Tere does actually directly responsible for these other emission targets, not appear to be any date ahead of the next general election, and that’s why these questions are around this. scheduled general election, where the public would be able Te public has a right to know whether or not, under to actually…. the CleanBC…. Basically, the emissions that we were col- Other than reading a marketing document from the gov- lecting carbon taxation on, even at $35 — so under this ernment, there is no actual defnitive data the public is going government’s increase, under the old climate plan — were to be able to look at to say that something that’s responsible holding static. Under the new CleanBC plan, for every day for 22 percent of the overall emissions standard is even on that CleanBC has been in place, the government is actually its right incremental steps, is ahead of schedule, is behind budgeting for an increase of emissions. schedule. Tere is nothing, it sounds like, based on the time- I’m simply trying to ascertain if there is not a way for lines that were presented today, that would indicate that the public, on these programs that the minister is directly there will be any way for the people, before they go and cast responsible for oversight for, that was responsible for 22 per- a ballot, to know whether or not, indeed, CleanBC is actually cent of the overall CleanBC reduction target…. working. Is that accurate, when it comes to this? I’m just trying to get clarifcation from the minister on a By the time regulation comes in, and the lags of report- very basic, simple question: will there be a data set for people ing…. We know industry takes…. It’s June, I think, of the to compare before the next general election on whether or following year. It’s several months afer the fscal year-end not CleanBC is meeting its internal targets — is exceeding or where their reports are fnally in, and then it takes a little behind its internal targets — and what exactly would be the while for government to review those reports to see if target by the fall of 2021 for this low-fuel standard to actually industry is hitting the right targets in relation to any indus- start reducing GHG emissions by? Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9277

Hon. M. Mungall: I feel like I’ve actually answered this see a reduction of megatonnes of GHG emissions with this question, but I’ll revise. As I said, CleanBC comes with an clause, with this standard. If not, and if there’s no way to accountability framework. Tat’s going to be legislated, and evaluate that, how is the public to know if CleanBC is actu- that legislation is going to be taking place later this year. ally working or not, other than a press release from the gov- I think it’s really important to note that very rarely do ernment telling them so? Everything in this document for governments, in general, hold themselves accountable with CleanBC is based on 2030. It’s a long way away from 2021. a legislated accountability framework, but we’re doing that Te electric vehicles is 2040, with a 2030 reference date and because that’s how committed we are to CleanBC and how a 2025. I’m trying to fgure out what measure in CleanBC…. committed we are to making sure that the public knows I haven’t been able to fnd one yet. Tis is the third min- exactly whether or not we’re achieving the targets that we’ve ister that I’ve asked. Tere’s not one target that government set out for ourselves. can point to that will have a reference check-in point, ahead Te previous government, in terms of their actions of the next scheduled general election in the fall of 2021, for around environmental issues or anything, did not have the general public, for environmental groups or for anyone accountability frameworks legislated. So that, I think, is else to be able to hold the government to account, regardless one of the diferences that this government shows in how of what legislation may or may not be coming in the fall — we approach our particular initiatives, particularly with to know whether or not anything in their own documents is CleanBC. actually even close to accomplishing what is stated that it’s In terms of the low-carbon fuel standard…. Again, I want going to accomplish. to just remind the member that there is legislation that Again, is there anything…? Let me rephrase this, then. already exists for the low-carbon fuel standard, and regula- We have a scheduled general election in the fall of 2021. tions already exist for the low-carbon fuel standard. How much should the clean fuel standard have been redu- What we intend to be doing is making amendments to cing GHG emissions, from implementation of CleanBC in strengthen that low-carbon fuel standard. From those December of 2018, when it was frst announced, to the fall amendments in legislation that we hope to bring forward in of 2021? Will there be a data collection set for the public and the fall, there might be some regulatory changes. But regula- environmental groups to scrutinize to know whether those tion already exists in terms of how we report out and how we numbers are verifable or not? ensure compliance takes place. [5:20 p.m.] If the member is wondering if people will know about whether we’re achieving compliance with our low-carbon Hon. M. Mungall: Te answer to the member’s question fuel standard prior to the next election, well, they already can is yes. As I said in my previous answer, the information is get that information on the ministry website. on the ministry website. I will happily send him the links so [5:15 p.m.] that he can acquire the exact location of where the ministry posts data about what the targets are for the carbon intensity P. Milobar: Wow. One second it’s all the former govern- of our fuel standard and whether or not we’re meeting them. ment’s fault, and the next it’s already in place from the former It’s right there on the ministry website. I’ll send him the link. government and working well. Again, that didn’t answer the question. It’s not about compliance. P.Milobar: Again, by the fall of 2021, what is the expected Te question. Tis is slated to reduce four megatonnes. GHG reduction as a result of the low fuel standard? Twenty-two percent of CleanBC’s plan is built around this one piece. It’s one piece where the minister refuses to Hon. M. Mungall: Te reason why I always ofer to give say what modelling has been done in terms of potential people the link is that navigating the government website cost increases per litre at the pump. It’s convenient to not can be pretty daunting. Even right now we’re just looking for answer that in the middle of record gas prices, but I think it on the government website in terms of the 2019 and the the public might actually want to know what this fuel 2020 targets. I’m going to get that for the member as soon as standard is going to cost them, out of their pocketbook, for I possibly can. In terms of 2021, though, we don’t have the every time they pump a litre of gas. But we’re not going to targets, because they will be dependent on the new legisla- get that answer today. tion that is due this fall. What I was asking, and what I still have not got an answer to, is that this fuel standard, which is supposed to be 22 per- P.Milobar: Again, the reason I’m asking these questions cent of CleanBC’s target…. Te minister should know. As is because timelines are important. Te 2017 climate-neut- the minister said, it’s an incremental step. So it’s not going to ral action report is the latest one that’s on. Te 2018 report be four megatonnes all in one year. Tere are going to be bits won’t be out, my understanding is, till June, or somewhere taken of each time. around there. So for 2018, it’s June 2019 when it fnally Diesel. So 2025 will be the frst reference date to see if the comes out, because of the way the fscals, reporting years diesel standard is working or not, but there must be some and inputs come in. expectation over the next two years that there will start to I would point out — the minister talked about the previ- 9278 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

ous government’s transparency — that those reports used to standard act. But in terms of the GHG emission reduction, be 35 to 40 pages. Te most recent one under this govern- which is what the member was talking about, yes, they’ll ment was seven or 12, something in that range. Hopefully, as be reporting out on that through the CleanBC accountab- they have full years under them, they’ll get to be a little bit ility framework. more robust with that reporting. When I’m asking what the numbers would be in the E. Ross: LNG Canada is basically a done deal in my reduction, it is a little disconcerting that it’s this hard to fnd, mind. It’s time to start building. Kitimat is buzzing. Ter- given that the architects of this CleanBC plan are advising race is buzzing. the minister right now. I don’t know how the general pub- I want to shif my attention now to the Chevron project, lic…. Te minister was kind to point out how complicated KM LNG. I won’t take too much of your time. I just want to the government websites can be. If the staf aren’t able to fnd know a couple of things about KM LNG. the report, I question how easy it will be for the general pub- Where I’ll start is the consultations around the hydro line. lic or environmental groups to fnd the report. We’ll need a new power line. Te existing line is not enough. Te last question I’ll try to wrap up with on this, then, But there’s been extensive work put into consultations for is…. Te 2020 year, what’s the timeline? So the 2018 report that line already, including the right-of-way. It’s already comes out when, with this particular type of reporting? Te approved. Consultations have been done. So in terms of get- 2019 report would come out when? Te 2020 report would ting the power to Kitimat for the Chevron project, will con- come out when? sultations start all over again, or will they just pick up where [5:25 p.m.] they lef of? Every government report seems to have a diferent time- [5:30 p.m.] line that it takes to collate the information and have it in a publicly presentable form, that’s understandable. Some are Hon. M. Mungall: Right now B.C. Hydro is working with based on fscal years; some are based on calendar years. Kitimat LNG to study exactly what their needs are going With this particular reporting module, style, what is the to be and how best to meet those needs. Tat might be an time lag that we would reasonably expect to see, then, the upgrade to the existing line. It might be a new line in a dif- 2019 report presented and the 2020 report presented so that ferent location. Tat has yet to be determined. Based on that people would know whether or not CleanBC is actually study, that will then determine if the existing consultation is achieving its target? sufcient or if more consultation needs to take place.

Hon. M. Mungall: Te reporting on our low-carbon fuel E. Ross: Tat is not my understanding. I’ve been at that standard is over a calendar year. Fuel suppliers report their fle for the last ten years, and I actually carried out the con- compliance by March 31, and we would then have analyzed sultation on behalf of my band. Te existing line, that I was data to the public by June 30. So that means for the 2019 aware of, could service the existing need in Kitimat already, calendar year, the public would know whether the low-car- and they changed the plan from replacing it to refurbishing bon fuel standard was successful or not by June 2020. For the the existing line, which continues to serve the existing need. 2020 calendar year, the public would know by June 2021. It was my understanding that Chevron going to e-drives, fully, would need a brand-new line, unless the minister is P. Milobar: Tank you for that clarifcation. Just one last saying that the existing line can service both LNG Canada clarifcation on that. So that’s the compliance, and I get that as well as Chevron. Ten maybe we don’t need the proposed the compliance side, I’m assuming, is that they’re actually line that we’ve actually consulted over the last — what? — supplying the market with the right amount of volume ratio four or fve years. Which is it? Is the existing line sufcient versus the 20 percent standard out there. for both projects? Do these reports…? Since we can’t fnd them or call them [5:35 p.m.] up, does the minister or the staf know, then…? I tried look- ing, and “Service for maintenance” came up on the govern- Hon. M. Mungall: My understanding is that the upgrades ment site too, so it could be something as simple as that. that have been identifed and that are going to be taking But do these reports, then…? Will they actually, if they don’t place will be enough to serve LNG Canada, which has a very already, be showing what the representative GHG reduction large load. achieved is — not just the compliance from the supply side For Kitimat LNG, which is going to be an even larger load of the equation but also whether or not the intended targets demand…. Te process that they’ve started is called form- within the CleanBC plan are actually being met from a GHG ally entering the queue for study. So they are doing a formal reduction standpoint? study with B.C. Hydro to determine exactly what their needs are and how best those needs can be met. In terms of the Hon. M. Mungall: We’ll be reporting, basically, in two upgrades, that’s a separate issue, and that is for LNG Canada. venues on whether we’re meeting our low-carbon fuel Will there need to be a new line? Perhaps. Tat is going to be standard. One is according to our act, our low-carbon fuel determined as part of this study. Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9279

Once the study is completed in terms of what their needs What I can say is that what we did for LNG Canada is look are, that will determine the type of consultation and if any at ways to address B.C.’s competitiveness by making sure that new consultation will need to take place going forward. Te a new industry, LNG, is not being treated any diferently existing consultation that was already done, which I under- than other industries. For example, I think that one of the stand the member participated in and led for his com- most notable areas was around electricity rates. What we did munity…. Tat isn’t going to all be tossed away and started was, rather than have a specifc LNG electricity rate, we’re from scratch. My understanding is that will also form part of giving them the same industrial rate as any other industry or any future consultation. industrial customer would be paying. Te PST deferral. A lot of people get confused by it, E. Ross: Tat kind of answers it, I guess, but it contra- because in the actual legislation and regulations and so on, dicts the answers I got from B.C. Hydro over the years, in it refers to exemption. It’s not really an exemption; it’s a terms of the existing right-of-way and the existing line. It deferral. So when the company is actually proftable, making was always the rationale that they wanted a diferent right- money, they can defer paying their PST costs associated with of-way, hence all the work on the consultations for the the construction phase at that time until they’re actually in proposed right-of-way. operation. We made that available to LNG Canada. It’s avail- Tat aside, on the existing line, could the minister tell me able, as we go forward, on a negotiated basis, through the whether or not there’s enough power for the requirements of Ministry of Finance. Cedar LNG as well as Pacifc Traverse Energy? Tere are a variety of tools that we use that have already been available to other industries that we applied for LNG Hon. M. Mungall: It’s hard to say whether the existing Canada and for the LNG industry. But again, any details line would be able to meet future load coming from the two about any types of agreements are housed within the Min- projects that the member highlighted: Pacifc Traverse and istry of Finance. Cedar. Tey haven’t done, as I said, what Kitimat LNG has done, which is formally enter the queue for study. Tat is E. Ross: Tank you for that, and I understood that. Te actually a formal terminology of how these issues are dealt only reason I asked is because the minister was a signatory with and identifed. So we just can’t say at this time. to the agreement. All I wanted to know was: will the same incentives be applied to smaller-scale projects, in terms of E. Ross: In terms of the LNG deal, the agreement that the PST and the carbon tax cap as well as the corporate tax was signed with LNG Canada…. I was fairly neutral on the rate? whole thing. I was fairly close to that fle for the last 14 years, Given that answer, I want to switch topics here real quick. 15 years or so. I wasn’t in agreement or disagreement with Could the minister tell me if there’s been any progress on the it at all. I was neutral, except for the part where the gov- Eagle Spirit Pipeline project? ernment wanted to get rid of the legislation that actually [5:45 p.m.] spoke to the accountability and transparency of those types of agreements being brought to the Legislature. Hon. M. Mungall: Te update for where the Eagle Spirit Apart from that…. I do understand the relativity to other Pipeline would be is that it hasn’t come forward for any type projects, especially to a Chevron project, who just recently of regulatory process. announced their capacity to 18 million tonnes. I don’t want to question that viability in terms of a future E. Ross: Okay. Tank you for that, Minister. agreement, but I do want to question the relativity to the My last question has got to do with LNG in general. Te incentive package as it pertains to Pacifc Traverse Energy LNG conference that was put on by the B.C. government and the Cedar project. I’ll tell you why. I know it’s diferent over the past number of years has been actually stopped by in terms of scale, but it’s the same type of project in terms of this government. It’s the question of the day. It’s the issue of exporting energy to Asia. As well, Cedar and Pacifc Traverse the day in B.C. It’s actually opened the door to LNG Canada’s Energy are one of the major cornerstones to the region, espe- four trains, above its initial two trains. cially my band, in terms of addressing independence and Now we’re talking about Chevron actually expanding to poverty. 18 million tonnes per annum, as well as Cedar LNG. Pacifc [5:40 p.m.] Traverse Energy is exporting propane, a by-product of LNG. Can the minister give me any updates in terms of the plan It just seems to make sense that the B.C. government bring to apply this LNG agreement and the terms within it to other this back as a conference. Is the minister aware of or actually industries like Cedar and Pacifc Traverse Energy? talking about bringing back the B.C. LNG conference to Vancouver? Hon. M. Mungall: It’s the Ministry of Finance that has the power to enter into these types of agreements and negoti- Hon. M. Mungall: Our government did cancel the pro- ate them and, therefore, provide any detail or answer to the vincial government’s own LNG conference. I stand by that member. decision, because there are other conferences that exist in the 9280 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019 world that we participate in, and in fact, we are sponsoring the House in support of LNG, and the only way we’ll have the Canada Gas and LNG conference that’s happening May LNG is with fracking. 21 to 23 in Vancouver. I’m wondering what studies, what papers…? What did the In terms of doubling up on activities and events that were minister go through to have a change of heart? already taking place, we just didn’t feel that that was the right [5:55 p.m.] use of taxpayer dollars to develop this industry. I would have to say that I think the proof is in the pudding. Not long Hon. M. Mungall: Not that my personal opinion is ever afer, through a lot of work and through the agreements that the material for budget estimates when we’re actually look- we made with LNG Canada and by sitting down and really ing at how tax dollars are being spent, and personal opinion sharpening our pencils and putting them to paper, we were doesn’t cost anything. able to get an FID. I’ll just say to the member that in the past — without citing anything that I’ve actually said in Hansard or so on, M. Bernier: Going back to my old band days, looking at or speaking to the context of what those comments were the time, I’ll be the closing act, maybe. delivered in regards to — I was very critical of the previous Just staying on the theme quickly here for LNG. I think we government’s approach to LNG and to developing the new had discussions earlier in the House. Can the minister con- industry. I was very critical of the previous government’s frm again where the majority of the gas is going to be com- approach to regulating activities on the land base. Now in ing from for the LNG projects and where the rest of it will be this position, I feel that a lot of those critiques were fair coming from? points. I was never opposed outright, as the member is suggest- Hon. M. Mungall: Our modelling has about 60 percent ing, to hydraulic fracturing. My house is heated with natural of the natural gas for LNG coming from here in British gas. I was never fat-out opposed entirely to LNG. Was I crit- Columbia. ical of the previous government’s approaches to these items? [5:50 p.m.] Yes, I was.

M. Bernier: I’m assuming, by the lack of continuing with M. Bernier: Well, I’ll save the House the time of reading that answer, that the rest of it’s coming from Alberta. I’m through the binder I have of quotes from the now minister, kind of getting a nod from the minister, so I’ll just take that. whether it was on Hansard, Twitter or Facebook. Tere’s a Is there any natural gas in British Columbia that’s not pro- litany of them. She was very vocal on her opinion of the duced by fracking? industry and around fracking. Maybe I’ll ask her this question, then. Since the B.C. NDP Hon. M. Mungall: We’re going to get the member the is so vocal about touting their partnership and support of exact number. the federal NDP, does she support the now-leader, Jagmeet Tere’s a variety of ways to come at this. Tere’s the actual Singh, who came out today and said: “We need to stop all production — the gas that’s coming out of the ground, how fracking and stop resource development and using energy- it’s coming out of the ground. Roughly somewhere in the 90s intensive things, such as natural gas, immediately to help percentage is from hydraulic fracturing. We’re going to get save Canada”? the member the exact number. However, you can count the number of wells and what Hon. M. Mungall: Mr. Singh is not a member of the kind of method they’re using. Te vast majority are using Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, nor are his opin- hydraulic fracturing, and we’re going to get the member that ions infuential in this House, in terms of how they impact number as well. I asked the staf the question. All new wells the overall budget and the government’s decision around this are now hydraulic fracturing wells, and that’s been going on budget. He’s entitled to his opinion. He’s more, of course, since about 2006. entitled to express his opinion as an elected ofcial and as a leader of a political party in this country. However, his com- M. Bernier: I’ll save the minister…. I know she did a slip- ments are not pertinent at all to budget estimates debate. up. She knows it’s not 300 kilometres down to those wells. M. Bernier: I will say, though, that the minister’s opinion Hon. M. Mungall: Yes, I was very tired that day. is very important in budget estimates debate. She said, just a couple of answers ago, that her opinion isn’t necessarily M. Bernier: One of the things I want to ask the minister, important during estimates, but in fact, it is. Te minister sits because obviously…. I’m not saying this to embarrass the at the cabinet table herself. Hopefully, she’s actually speaking minister, but I’m also saying this because I think it needs to up for industry and speaking up for the jobs and the people, be said. Te minister is on record being completely opposed specifcally in, we’re talking right now, the natural gas sector. to fracking. She was opposed to LNG. Now she’s standing in Te minister’s opinion is and should be important. Other- wise, why have a minister in that portfolio? Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9281

At the same time, that’s why I canvassed the fact of the one example. For dams and dugouts, a preliminary risk ana- minister’s past position. She tried to give an answer of why lysis was implemented, and high-priority structures were she’s fipped, and now she’s in the role, so she has a little bit assessed. Ongoing work is being done to verify initial satel- more control of the ministry. She didn’t like the way it was lite data interpretation of dams and dugouts to improve run in the past. She wants to like the way she’s doing it, I volume estimates and classifcation. Tose are a couple of guess. I’ll give her credit for that. examples on the dams and dugouts. Te whole point, though, is…. On the handling of fowback water, the OGC has de- veloped and implemented a compliance oversight pro- Interjection. gram for operator integrity management programs for pipelines and facilities. Induced seismicity monitoring. We M. Bernier: Excuse me. Am I interrupting you? You can have active, ongoing ground motion monitoring and go back to Twitter and doing whatever you’re doing. research collaboration in the Kiskatinaw seismic monit- oring and mitigation area between federal and provincial Te Chair: Members. governments, Crown agencies, universities, industry and not-for-proft organizations. M. Bernier: Te minister’s opinion is important. I’m say- Gas migration was researched by UBC, examining sur- ing this as respectfully as I can, contrary to the cynics over face gas efux due to gas migration, and potential feld on the end there that want to critique. I think it’s important measurement monitoring strategies have recently been that the minister herself actually give some certainty to an concluded. Risks to human health. Industry is actively industry that is going to be helping fuel an LNG industry. engaged in removing, or fnding safer substitutions for, Tey need to know this. the chemicals used in hydraulic fracturing. Risks to safety. Now, there’s an anti-fracking report that’s out there right Te mapping of zones likely to experience greater ground now. Te minister has come out, and she’s charged people motion is underway. with this anti-fracking report. Tere’s a whole bunch of dif- Chair, we’ve taken on several activities, like I said. Going ferent things in there. forward, we have a plan to deliver on long-term actions from Sorry, I should quantify. Not an anti-fracking report — a the recommendations that the scientists provided us with in fracking report. their report. We’ll have that released by December 2019 fol- Tere’s a whole bunch of recommendations and ideas in lowing consultation with both Indigenous and non-Indigen- there, and the minister has said there are going to be some ous communities in the northeast, as well as industry. short- and long-term goals or things to achieve in there. Can [6:05 p.m.] she give an example to this House of a short-term and a long- term goal that she wants to achieve? M. Bernier: I appreciate the minister reading out the list [6:00 p.m.] of things. A lot of those were started, actually, before this report even was commissioned. A lot of that was started even Hon. M. Mungall: I just want to start by characterizing in the last government, but it is all good work. I will agree the report that we had three scientists conduct. I really don’t with her on that. want to diminish the work that they did. One of the recommendations in there…. I’m just trying to Tey volunteered their time to the province of British Col- get a sense of this. Te Minister of Agriculture has been very umbia — and we’re very grateful that they did that — not vocal on the amount of land — the minister said a couple only their time but their expertise and their knowledge. Te of times in her last answer — that’s used by the oil and gas three scientists — two from UBC, one from SFU — came activity. One of the recommendations in there was to imme- together, and they looked at how we’re managing the land diately work to address the imbalance between oil and gas base when it comes to hydraulic fracturing. It wasn’t about activities and the use of agricultural land to convert and use anti-fracking or anti-anything. It was making sure that we that land for agricultural purposes. have a good understanding of the practice and that as reg- Te minister and her staf, I assume, are working closely ulators we have a good understanding of our responsibility with the Minister of Agriculture and possibly with the OGC, to manage the land base. I’m very grateful for the work that obviously, on that as well, through the delegation agreement. they did. But when I see wording like that in there, that can send Now, we have a very long list of actions that we’ve already a chill to people, saying: “Okay. What’s the intent of this started to take as a result of their 97 recommendations. I’m government if they’re wanting to preserve farmland, know- happy to share it with the member, a brief version of that, ing that, through a delegation agreement and everything, we right now. I know that time is always a consideration. I won’t need to have at least some surface land, like it or not, in order read absolutely everything, because it will take a long time. to have the activity?” On the topic of water quantity baseline monitoring, we’ve Can the minister give, maybe, a quick synopsis of what completed installation of new hydrometric monitoring sta- that discussion looks like with the Ministry of Agriculture of tions in collaboration with First Nations communities. Tat’s what we’re trying to achieve here? 9282 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 13, 2019

Hon. M. Mungall: Right now the Ministry of Agriculture, I guess I’ll close up. I know my colleague wants to ask one the Agricultural Land Commission, the Oil and Gas Com- more question as well. mission and the Ministry of Energy, Mines and Petroleum I wanted to ask the minister quickly what she thinks the Resources…. Tere are representatives from all of those impact to the oil and gas industry will be in British Colum- organizations working together right now. Tey’re just get- bia. As of May 30, the Alberta government, under the new ting started in terms of addressing that land management Premier, has announced that they’re going to be eliminat- issue, making sure that we have a good balance so that our ing their $30-per-tonne carbon tax and encouraging all B.C. oil and gas sector is as strong as it ever was and so that our companies to go back to Alberta and encouraging all the oil agricultural sector is as strong as it ever was and that both and gas activity to stay in Alberta, and they’ll reduce with a can actually grow and strengthen and go well into the future. carbon tax. Does the minister see that going to be a negative impact M. Bernier: Te minister and I will agree, I think, on this to B.C., and what will she do about that? one, because of course, this is my backyard, and I see it all [6:15 p.m.] play out. Arguably, almost all of the natural gas extraction happens in my corner of the province. We also have a couple Hon. M. Mungall: What’s going to happen in Alberta, as of million and a half acres of ALR land in the area. So some- of June 1, is that the federal rules will apply, the federal rules thing I think we’d agree on is that we need to fgure how to around carbon taxation. Alberta is stepping away from that coexist. We need to do that, because I do hear the pressures while the federal backstop comes in. from companies that they’re facing, but I also hear the pres- In terms of competitiveness, those federal rules are com- sures from the agricultural industry as well. ing in. I would say that what is going on in the world right Since I see some of the people from the OGC, I don’t want now, as well, is that several oil and gas companies are starting to waste their walk over here today. So maybe I’ll ask a few to rethink the way in which they view themselves as energy questions as we wrap up. Do we keep track of and how do companies. I was just meeting with Shell today, for example. we know how much fugitive emissions we have, or methane, We know that Shell has lef the American counterpart of the that’s leaked into the atmosphere? Canadian Association of… [6:10 p.m.] Interjection. Hon. M. Mungall: As the member knows, the OGC does several thousands of inspections every year. Tey use spe- Hon. M. Mungall: …Petroleum Producers. I’m trying to cialized equipment, and then from those inspections, they’re fgure out what the acronyms are, because I’ve been using able to model and put forward estimates in terms of what our them for so long. I know the acronym. It’s just: what does the fugitive emissions are. acronym spell out? Te beneft of going on the ground with those inspections, Anyway, Shell has put CAPP on notice as well, because though, is that once a leak is detected, they know where it they actually see a carbon tax as an important way forward, is, and they can make sure that it gets fxed in a very timely in terms of reducing impacts on climate change. What Shell fashion. Tat’s exactly what happens. was telling me today is that if there’s no carbon tax, they’re essentially going to tax themselves, because they want to M. Bernier: I know the OGC works with MERC and make that shif from purely oil and gas to a broader energy groups like that as well. Te reason why I ask this is, obvi- company, whether they’re delivering hydrogen, as the new ously, that the government has put out some pretty bold gas station of the future for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles or comments about wanting to reduce fugitive emissions or with biofuels, and so on. methane released into the atmosphere when nobody really From where I sit, and in terms of my conversations with can give a good, solid…. It’s not government’s fault. How industry, they still very much want to be operating here in do you know what’s leaking until somebody reports it or British Columbia. you fnd it? It’s interesting. I guess we’re going to be guesstimating on a Te Chair: Okay. A brief comment, a question from Koo- percentage of leaks based on a percentage of non-leaks com- tenay East. pared to what’s out there, then extrapolate that into an estim- ate, and then throw the dart at the board and that’s what gov- T. Shypitka: Tank you, Chair. ernment’s hoping to reduce by. I just want to wrap up. I want to thank the minister. I want Don’t get me wrong. Obviously, we want to look at every to thank the staf, who I respect a great deal. I know the time opportunity. Te funny thing is that so do the companies, and efort that goes into these estimates. because any lost molecules in the air are dollars lost, right? Tere were a lot of questions of concern that we had on So it is something, obviously, that the companies are going this side. Tere were a lot of non-answers on this side that to work at as well. we had concerns with. I think it sends a signal that the eight hours we were aforded stretched out to ten, and we barely Monday, May 13, 2019 British Columbia Debates 9283 scratched the surface. In the future, we’ll need some more I always like to say to people…. When they ask me about time for these estimates, because they’re very important to what it is to work with all these wonderful people, I say: “I the economy of British Columbia. got the A-team.” Tey are just absolutely fantastic, and Mr. I wanted to actually remind the minister just one last time, T has nothing on any of them. I want to thank all of them in case she got lost in the questioning, that I was asking her for their hard work in putting together answers and inform- earlier on the Davidson deposit. I sent eight questions. If she ation for members opposite so that we can do our level best could get those answers sent to us, I’d super appreciate it. I in terms of ensuring accountability for how taxpayers’ dol- know the applicant would like that as well. lars are spent.

Te Chair: Minister, would you like to make some closing Vote 22: ministry operations, $177,038,000 — approved. comments? Hon. M. Mungall: Now it’s my line. I move that the com- Hon. M. Mungall: Yes, please. Tank you. mittee rise and report resolution and completion of the Min- Absolutely, we’ll get that to the member as soon as pos- istry of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources and ask sible. leave to sit again. I want to thank all of the ministry staf, who have helped me answer the members’ questions. I appreciate all of their Motion approved. questions. We have incredible expertise in this ministry, very professional civil servants in this ministry who are dedicated Te committee rose at 6:19 p.m. to British Columbians and dedicated to doing a phenomenal job for British Columbians.

Hansard Reporting Services

DIRECTOR Robert Sutherland

MANAGER OF REPORTING SERVICES Christine Fedoruk

MANAGER OF PUBLISHING SYSTEMS Dan Kerr

TEAM LEADERS Mike Beninger, Laurel Bernard, Julie McClung, Karol Morris, Amy Reiswig, Glenn Wigmore

EDITORS Julia Bobak, Janet Brazier, Kim Christie, Jane Grainger, Betsy Gray, Iris Gray, Mary Beth Hall, Louis Henderson, Barb Horricks, Bill Hrick, Catherine Lang, Paula Lee, Donna McCloskey, Quinn MacDonald, Anne Maclean, Claire Matthews, Jill Milkert, Linda Miller, Sarah Mitenko, Erik Pedersen, Murray Sinclair, Robyn Swanson, Antoinette Warren, Heather Warren, Kim Westad

INDEXERS Shannon Ash, Robin Rohrmoser

RESEARCHERS Niloo Farahzadeh, David Mattison, Steve Pocock

TECHNICAL OPERATIONS Pamela Holmes, Daniel Powell, Patrick Stobbe

Access to on-line versions of the ofcial report of debates (Hansard) and webcasts of proceedings is available on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television.

www.leg.bc.ca

Published by British Columbia Hansard Services under the authority of the Speaker.