1 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 2
3 EDUCATION COMMITTEE
4 PUBLIC HEARING ON COMPULSORY SCHOOL AGE 5
6 STATE CAPITOL 7 60 EAST WING HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA 8
9 JUNE 4, 2019 10:02 A.M. 10
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14 BEFORE:
15 HONORABLE CURT SONNEY, MAJORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE JAMES ROEBUCK, MINORITY CHAIRMAN 16 HONORABLE ROSEMARY BROWN HONORABLE VALERIE GAYDOS 17 HONORABLE MARK M. GILLEN HONORABLE BARBARA GLEIM 18 HONORABLE DAVID HICKERNELL HONORABLE MIKE JONES 19 HONORABLE JOSHUA KAIL HONORABLE MICHAEL PUSKARIC 20 HONORABLE MEGHAN SCHROEDER HONORABLE CRAIG STAATS 21 HONORABLE JESSE TOPPER HONORABLE CAROL HILL-EVANS 22 HONORABLE MARY ISAACSON HONORABLE PATTY KIM 23 HONORABLE STEPHEN MCCARTER HONORABLE DAN MILLER 24 HONORABLE JARED SOLOMON
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1 COMMITTEE STAFF PRESENT:
2 REPUBLICAN CAUCUS STAFF:
3 ALAINA KOLTASH, EDUCATION EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR & SENIOR LEGAL COUNSEL 4 DANIEL GLATFELTER, RESEARCH ANALYST I CHRISTINE SEITZ, RESEARCH ANALYST 5 MICHAEL BIACCHI, LIQUOR COMMITTEE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR CHRISTINE CRONE, 6 LEGISLATIVE ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT II
7 DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS STAFF:
8 CHRIS WAKELEY, EDUCATION EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR ERIN DIXON, SENIOR RESEARCH ANALYST 9 ALYCIA LAURETI, SENIOR RESEARCH ANALYST APRIL MCCLENTON, SENIOR LEGISLATIVE ASSISTANT 10
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1 I N D E X
2 T E S T I F I E R S
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4 NAME PAGE
5 PEDRO A. RIVERA, SECRETARY PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION 6 ...... 8
7 RICH ASKEY, PRESIDENT, PA STATE EDUCATION ASSOCIATION ...... 26 8 DR. RICHARD FRY, PRESIDENT, 9 PA ASSOCIATION OF SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS ...... 32 10 BETH JONES, SECRETARY, 11 PA COALITION OF PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS ...... 36 12 ANGELA DAVIS, CHRISTIAN HOMESCHOOL ASSOCIATION OF PA 13 ...... 54
14 ELLEN KRAMER, CATHOLIC HOMESCHOOLERS OF PA ...... 59 15
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
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3 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Good morning,
4 and welcome to the House Education Committee's
5 Public Hearing on compulsory school age in
6 Pennsylvania.
7 I'd like to remind everyone that this is
8 being recorded and to please silence your cell
9 phones. I think we'll start with asking the
10 members to introduce themselves. We'll start
11 over on the right.
12 (Committee member introductions.)
13 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Thank you.
14 The current compulsory school age laws provide
15 that students must attend school beginning at
16 age 8 and a 17-yeara-old student can drop out
17 without the permission of their parent or
18 guardian.
19 There's a proposal to lower the
20 compulsory school age from 8 years to 6 years
21 old and limit the ability of a 17-year-old to
22 drop out of school without the permission of
23 their parent or guardian. We're here this
24 morning to hear testimony on this proposal.
25 Chairman Roebuck, do you have any 5
1 opening remarks?
2 MINORITY CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Good
3 morning, Mr. Chairman. I'm James Roebuck,
4 Democratic Chair representing the 108th
5 Legislative District in Philadelphia. I want to
6 thank Chairman Sonney for holding this very
7 important hearing regarding the compulsory
8 school age required for all students across the
9 Commonwealth.
10 After looking over the agenda, I believe
11 that much of the testimony reflected this
12 morning will reflect the goals and values that
13 are shared by many members of this Committee to
14 bring Pennsylvania's compulsory school
15 attendance age in line with other states,
16 increase school-going rates for all students
17 ages 6 and above across the Commonwealth.
18 I'd like to point out that over the
19 years, there have been calls for legislative
20 action to lower Pennsylvania's compulsory school
21 age from the current requirement of 8 years down
22 to 6.
23 In fact, beginning in 2001 with House
24 Bill 2030, each session thereafter until 2008, I
25 sponsored legislation to lower the compulsory 6
1 school age from 8 to 6.
2 In 2008, after many years of pushing the
3 issue, I was able to get into law, Act 61 of
4 2008, which allowed the school age in the
5 Philadelphia School District to be lowered from
6 8 to 6.
7 December 2008, the School Reform
8 Commission amended the School District's age
9 attendance policy to lower the age to 6, which
10 has resulted in the enrollment of approximately
11 an additional 700 students in the district at
12 that time.
13 I would like to note that Elinor Z.
14 Taylor was Chair of the Committee, introduced a
15 companion bill to mine in 2003, House Bill 1221
16 to raise the compulsory school age from 17 to 18
17 to help reduce the number of students who drop
18 out of school at 17 before graduating.
19 So it took over a decade. I'm pleased
20 to see this issue is being considered by this
21 Committee. I would also note that legislative
22 issues are important, education components of
23 the Governor's Statewide Workforce Education and
24 Accountability Program.
25 Also, last month, the State Board of 7
1 Education introduced and passed two resolutions
2 supporting legislative efforts to lower the
3 state's compulsory school attendance and raising
4 the dropout age.
5 I'd like to thank Representative Dan
6 Milne for introducing House Bill 593 and
7 recognizing the importance of addressing this
8 issue.
9 I certainly look forward to the
10 discussions we'll have today, and I hope that
11 we'll move forward in enacting legislation that
12 will both lower the school age and also increase
13 the age at which a student can drop out of
14 school.
15 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Thank you.
17 And we've been joined by Representative Brown.
18 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Good morning.
19 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Good morning.
20 So we're ready to begin.
21 Secretary Rivera, thanks for being here
22 this morning.
23 SECRETARY RIVERA: Thank you.
24 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: We know this
25 is one of the Governor's proposals, and so we're 8
1 anxious to hear your testimony. Thank you.
2 SECRETARY RIVERA: Thank you, Chairman
3 Sonney, Chairman Roebuck. Thank you for the
4 invitation; but most importantly, in convening
5 this opportunity and the Committee to discuss, a
6 great opportunity we have before us at this time
7 of the year.
8 I also want to take a moment and commend
9 you in assembling a room, as I walked in and was
10 able to connect with some former colleagues and
11 new friends. You have an extremely
12 knowledgeable and robust set of professionals
13 and advocates in the room, so I'm sure you're
14 going to absolutely be more than informed as you
15 work through the day. So I look forward to
16 continuing to engage on this issue.
17 You have my written testimony in front
18 of you, so I'm not going to read through my full
19 written testimony. What I will do is take a few
20 minutes and just hit some key talking points
21 that we've engaged in over the course of the
22 past year. But even longer, having been in the
23 field of education for, you know, practically
24 half of my life now.
25 And you, first, I wanted to discuss the 9
1 lowering of the compulsory age from 8 to 6 and
2 also understanding that we are going to continue
3 to look and to engage in the efficacy of even
4 starting earlier and the need for kindergarten
5 preparedness for us here in Pennsylvania.
6 And I think first and foremost, it's
7 important to just highlight the fact that the
8 Commonwealth's current compulsory age of school
9 entry was established in the 19th Century, 1895
10 to be exact, and does not reflect the needs of
11 children or families in the 21st Century.
12 Pennsylvania's just one of two states in
13 the nation that allows children to wait until
14 age 8 to enroll in school. Washington State is
15 the only other. And over the course of the past
16 few years, we know how much we like to highlight
17 our successes, so we don't want to be one of the
18 only two states that allows students to start as
19 old as 8 years old.
20 So we also know that we're lagging
21 behind our peers in this geographic area. New
22 York, New Jersey, Ohio, West Virginia, all
23 require that children begin school by the age of
24 6 years old, while Delaware, Maryland,
25 Connecticut, Washington, DC, and Virginia have 10
1 set their compulsory school age at age 5. So
2 it's estimated that this change will increase
3 enrollment by approximately 3,300 children
4 between the ages of 6 and 7 statewide.
5 This means that 3300 more students will
6 have regular access to school libraries,
7 computers, and stable and nourishing meals. It
8 means greater support for more Pennsylvania
9 families.
10 And we know that the change helps more
11 children get off to a good start in school and
12 will prevent students from falling behind their
13 peers who enter school at an earlier age.
14 We also know in terms of quality of
15 life, working parents will have the comfort of
16 knowing their child will have access to
17 education at a critical time and their child's
18 developmental years.
19 And we also have to revert back to
20 research, which overwhelmingly shows that an
21 earlier start in formal schooling can help
22 improve language and literacy skills, increase
23 student achievement, enhance social and
24 emotional skill development and decrease the
25 need for remediation in later years. 11
1 We know that lowering the compulsory
2 attendance age for our youngest learners is not
3 just an acknowledgement of research that clearly
4 demonstrates the benefits of high-quality, early
5 education programs to childhood development.
6 It's also the recognition of the need to support
7 PA families whose challenges are diverse,
8 whether single-parent households or those
9 working multiple jobs. Too many households
10 struggling to make ends meet or even
11 grandparents stepping into the role of caregiver
12 and families that have been fractured by the
13 opioid epidemic.
14 So we know that by engaging with our
15 earliest learners, not only are we advancing an
16 education agenda, we're helping support
17 communities longitudinally.
18 Next, I just wanted to discuss a few
19 talking points for the other recommendation
20 around compulsory age; and that is raising the
21 dropout age from 17 to 18 years old. You know,
22 first, I think in terms of making the case, you
23 know, the numbers actually are a telling story.
24 Currently, nearly 14,000 of
25 Pennsylvania's children leave school every year 12
1 without obtaining a high school diploma. The
2 current law was also established in 1949, at a
3 time when a high school diploma provided an
4 opportunity for well-paying and promising
5 careers directly out of high school.
6 Even traditional skill trades are
7 increasingly technologically sophisticated,
8 requiring students to develop additional
9 necessary skills that allow them to compete in
10 rapidly-changing 21st Century markets.
11 The paradigm shift requires a
12 comprehensive approach. And I'd like to share,
13 folks, when we're discussing how we've evolved
14 and even around our career and technical
15 education standards or working towards an
16 industry certificate, there was a time where
17 early on in your high school career you could
18 choose a pathway and it kind of fractured out if
19 you wanted to go what we consider the old
20 vocational route or the lower-degree route to
21 the more-advanced degree route. That's no
22 longer the case.
23 When you think about, you know, those
24 options in high school, they're much more
25 vertical. So, you know, the skills that you 13
1 need to be able to read a trade manual, for
2 example, and work towards an industry
3 certificate in career technical education are
4 practically the same skills you need to be
5 successful in your first couple of years in
6 college.
7 And the skill that you need to attain a
8 two-year degree is very linear with a skill that
9 you will need to attain a four-year degree and
10 beyond.
11 So the time by which, you know, you
12 didn't have to worry about how long students
13 were in school or the skills they needed to
14 receive while in school would still allow for a
15 differentiated career pathways.
16 Now the need to educate children earlier
17 and often through the ages of 18 is much more
18 pronounced. We know that, you know, as we look
19 at the numbers now, just over -- we identified a
20 postsecondary attainment goal. And currently,
21 just 40 percent of our current Pennsylvania
22 residents between the ages of 24 and 65 hold
23 some form of postsecondary degree.
24 And we worked with Georgetown University
25 on education and workforce estimates, and we 14
1 know that by 2025 over 60 percent of individuals
2 to be employed in the Commonwealth are going to
3 require some type of postsecondary degree,
4 whether that's an industry certificate, a 2-year
5 degree and a 4-year degree.
6 Specifically, in the next ten years,
7 we're going to require 33 percent of
8 Commonwealth residents who are looking for
9 employment, ages between 25 and 64, 33 percent
10 to hold a certificate or an Associate's Degree;
11 22 percent of jobs will require a Bachelor's
12 degree, and 11 percent of jobs will require an
13 individual holding a Master's degree or higher.
14 And yet, in 2016-'17, nearly 14,000
15 students in Pennsylvania left high school
16 without obtaining a diploma. More than 10,000
17 of these students dropped out before the ages of
18 18, over half of which were students of color
19 and nearly two-thirds were from low-income
20 families.
21 So I sympathize with the students and
22 their families, but we also have to consider the
23 long-term cost of this decision to the
24 Commonwealth. Students who leave school without
25 a high school diploma achieve a median annual 15
1 salary of just over $26,000, which pales in
2 comparison to a median salary of $45,00,
3 achieved by their peers who hold a high school
4 diploma. So students now stand to benefit from
5 the first initiatives of this kind. And coupled
6 with the PA Smart Initiative, our advances in
7 career and technical programs, our focus on STEM
8 and computer science education, our corporate
9 partnerships and apprenticeships, not only are
10 we asking you to consider an increase in the
11 compulsory age where we're going to work to put
12 the systems of support in place to help meet the
13 differentiated needs of students in high school.
14 So that concludes the highlights of my
15 testimony, but I wanted to just put some of
16 those facts out there. And I can make myself
17 available for questions.
18 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Thank you.
19 Representative Topper.
20 REPRESENTATIVE TOPPER: Thank you,
21 Mr. Secretary. You had said I think the 3300
22 number would increase between ages 6 and 7. Was
23 that correct?
24 SECRETARY RIVERA: (Nodding in the
25 affirmative.) 16
1 REPRESENTATIVE TOPPER: So right now,
2 what do you think the percentage of children
3 starting school at age 8 actually is?
4 SECRETARY RIVERA: So we ran the numbers
5 in aggregate, and I don't want to misspeak; but
6 I know the number dwindled significantly when it
7 went to 8 years old. But as we looked at the 6
8 and 7 year olds, 3300 -- let me pull the actual
9 number. Let me disaggregate that data --
10 REPRESENTATIVE TOPPER: Right. Because
11 I think there's a big difference between 7 and
12 8, you know; and we're dropping it two years --
13 looking to drop it two years, as opposed to just
14 one. And I understand that 8 is probably about
15 as far as we'd want to go on the other scale.
16 I don't know that -- I mean, any of us
17 who have had kids understand that year makes a
18 big difference. Every kid's different. I'm
19 very concerned when we talk about limiting the
20 flexibility of parents to make some of those
21 decisions. So it would be helpful to me as a
22 Committee member, I think, to look at what it
23 would mean in terms of going from 2 years, back
24 from 8 to 6 versus just actually going from 8 to
25 7. Because like I said, the number, if I heard 17
1 correctly, that was addressing essentially 7
2 year olds that would be enrolling now as 6 year
3 olds; is that correct?
4 SECRETARY RIVERA: Six and 7 year olds
5 is the 3300 number, yeah.
6 REPRESENTATIVE TOPPER: Right. Okay.
7 So if we could take a look at something like
8 that, I think it would be helpful.
9 SECRETARY RIVERA: And if you don't
10 mind, in addition to desegregating the numbers,
11 I also put in there a little blurb around the
12 difference in the academic standards. So when
13 you consider a 7-year-old starting school for
14 the first time and only 5 year olds normally
15 enter kindergarten and then a 5 to 6 to 7 year
16 old will be entering first grade. And so a
17 student could technically be going into first
18 grade for the first time. And then just the
19 difference between first-grade readiness for
20 those that have gone into kindergarten. So I'll
21 just give you a little blurb around the skill
22 sets needed to transition from --
23 REPRESENTATIVE TOPPER: And we've made a
24 pretty significant investment and talked about
25 early childhood education and creating -- make 18
1 sure there's opportunities that kind of address
2 -- I guess that's the other part that when I
3 think of addressing the idea of parents who need
4 the social aspect of being able to make sure
5 their kids are someplace safe. I do think we're
6 also addressing that in a lot of other ways.
7 And I don't want that to be a primary
8 consideration either as we look at this issue.
9 So I appreciate your testimony. Thank
10 you, Mr. Chairman.
11 SECRETARY RIVERA: Thank you, sir.
12 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Thank you.
13 Representative Jones.
14 REPRESENTATIVE JONES: Thank you, Mr.
15 Chairman. Couple questions for you, Mr.
16 Secretary, if you don't mind. Kind of argue --
17 take both sides of the argument a little bit.
18 First, a quick comment: I hope we don't
19 tie the starting age and the graduation age
20 together. That should be two separate -- I
21 could see where some of us may go one way on one
22 and a different way on the other, so I hope
23 they're not tied at the hip.
24 But in any event, I am -- I'll say to
25 your point, I'm picturing an 8-year-old starting 19
1 kindergarten. That child is then 13, possibly
2 even 14 years old in the fifth grade if my math
3 is correct. And the other way to look at it,
4 you could have a senior in high school who's, I
5 think, pushing 20 if not possibly 21.
6 So I'm just curious if there's any -- if
7 those have been raised as issues. Like, do we
8 -- I mean, there aren't many kids starting at 8
9 or probably even 7; but I am curious about the
10 dynamics of a 13-year-old 5th grader and/or
11 whatever example you want to use. But you know
12 what I'm saying, or what would that be, an
13 18-year-old 9th grader or something like that.
14 Is that something you've heard anything about?
15 And I do have a second question then.
16 SECRETARY RIVERA: Sure.
17 So absolutely. There's probably a
18 greater likelihood of an 8-year-old or a 7 or
19 8-year-old would be moved into an
20 age-appropriate classroom; and there are laws
21 that at least govern that. You don't have a
22 student too overaged in a specific classroom.
23 But the challenge in that, is that you
24 can have a student walking into a classroom for
25 the first time and just not even having the 20
1 basic skills of, you know, engaging in a
2 literacy center, for example, and then having to
3 learn that from scratch.
4 On the upper age recommendation for
5 compulsory age, currently by law if a student
6 has an IEP, we allow them to stay in school up
7 until their 21st birthday. And schools, for the
8 most part, do a really good job in
9 differentiating, you know, the learning plan for
10 those students who are overaged.
11 Now, we're here to discuss the
12 compulsory age; but I will share with you, what
13 we're doing anyway is working with school
14 districts to put a system of support in place
15 for overage students.
16 So we understand that today there are
17 overaged, under-credited students that require
18 some specialized instruction, whether that's in
19 a traditional setting, nontraditional setting,
20 whether we're looking at, you know, career
21 pathways or even looking at some of our adult
22 basic-ed classes. We're going to continue to
23 push those systems of support.
24 One of the reasons I mentioned SWEAP,
25 really quickly is, we want to give school 21
1 districts, you know, the resources and the
2 supports to look at, you know, programs, for
3 example.
4 I mean, many students who may have
5 fallen deficient, you know, could be in need of
6 some other services, whether it's something
7 addressed by the community school model,
8 something looking at middle to high school
9 transition.
10 So we're going to continue to work to
11 that and to provide more holistic support for
12 students who might be classified as more at
13 risk. This recommendation is solely --
14 currently, if you're 17 years old, you can show
15 up to the main office and say I don't want to
16 go to school anymore; and you can sign yourself
17 out, which is what we call kind in the ad world,
18 this would ask that a student can't decide
19 themselves to stop attending school until 18.
20 If a parent still, you know, wants to
21 work with a differentiated plan or a student
22 wants to go to a GED program and even a
23 higher-ed option, that's still an option under
24 the compulsory school-age recommendation.
25 This would just force a 17-year-old to 22
1 consult the parent or some other guardian before
2 signing themselves out of school.
3 REPRESENTATIVE JONES: Thank you. I
4 appreciate that. You hear that's not maybe as
5 big a concern as I thought it might be.
6 So now, I always get nervous whenever I
7 see the state and the word compulsory in the
8 same sentence because I'm not really -- it's
9 rarely a good thing.
10 So I'm curious: A parent has a student
11 that's 7, and they decide that that student's
12 not ready to start elementary and we the State
13 say yes, they are. I don't know see any other
14 way to word that, but to say this implies that
15 we know better than the parent what is in the
16 best interest of the child.
17 Is there any other possible way to read
18 that? Because I don't -- I can't see what it
19 is. They say they shouldn't be there. We say
20 they're going to be there. That implies we know
21 better for those, however many thousands of
22 children, what's in their best interest than
23 the parent does. Is that correct?
24 SECRETARY RIVERA: So what this would --
25 the compulsory school age requirement would 23
1 require the student receive some form of
2 education. And as I'm sure you're going to hear
3 today -- I know you're going to hear today,
4 there are homeschooling options; there are, you
5 know, private options; there are independent
6 options; then there's the public school option.
7 So all of those options would remain on
8 the table. But this would require the parent to
9 identify some form of education and educational
10 attainment and opportunity for their student,
11 you know, as early as 6 years old and then, you
12 know, continuing to have the conversation around
13 kindergarten as well.
14 REPRESENTATIVE JONES: Thank you very
15 much. That's a good solid response. I
16 appreciate it.
17 SECRETARY RIVERA: No. Thank you, sir.
18 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY:
19 Representative Gillen.
20 REPRESENTATIVE GILLEN: Thank you for
21 being here, Mr. Secretary. I've enjoyed working
22 with you and your team in the past, and I am an
23 advocate for early childhood education. One of
24 the public schools that I represent, I was at
25 their pre-K program a couple weeks ago and I 24
1 think they're doing an outstanding job.
2 My question is relative to the data
3 stream, if one exists. On students who entered
4 as a 7-year-old or an 8-year-old and the
5 outcomes for those particular students
6 consummating their educational career, what
7 distinctions you might have seen -- or maybe
8 you're not familiar with the data stream and you
9 can get back with me later on that.
10 SECRETARY RIVERA: So the data that we
11 collected to estimate the 3300 this year, we
12 haven't gone back; so it would require -- we
13 start to collect state data at about -- at third
14 grade, as you know. So we would probably have
15 to go back at least three to four years, and we
16 haven't done that.
17 I can ask. I just don't want to commit
18 to pulling a data set that I don't know we have.
19 I can ask. I can go back and try to pull that
20 information.
21 REPRESENTATIVE GILLEN: Thank you. So
22 if I understand your answer, we're not sure what
23 the outcomes are then?
24 SECRETARY RIVERA: So in terms of -- we
25 haven't -- I haven't looked to collect data from 25
1 the current third graders that started first
2 grade or kindergarten at 7 or 8 years old, so
3 I'd have to do a little digging.
4 REPRESENTATIVE GILLEN: Okay. Thank
5 you, Mr. Chairman.
6 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Thank you.
7 Now, Mr. Secretary, have you identified
8 a cost to lowering the age?
9 SECRETARY RIVERA: Uh-huh. We think
10 that for the lower age, the cost would probably
11 be in the $20-million range; but, you know, I'd
12 also remind the General Assembly, we have the
13 basic education funding formula that takes
14 student population into account; so it would be
15 commensurate with the formula, which is add to
16 the district enrollment.
17 Now, if we wanted to make a
18 recommendation to see an increase across the
19 state to support the bill, that's absolutely a
20 conversation we can have. But those students
21 who haven't started are dispersed across the
22 Commonwealth, they would be included in the
23 school districts total population.
24 So, you know, we don't think that it
25 would require new teachers, per se; but it would 26
1 add a student to dozens in classrooms and school
2 districts.
3 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Thank you.
4 Any other questions?
5 (No response.)
6 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Thank you,
7 Mr. Secretary.
8 SECRETARY RIVERA: Thank you, sir.
9 Thank you.
10 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: And we've
11 been joined by Representatives Miller and
12 Representative Kim.
13 Next up will be Rich Askey, President of
14 the Pennsylvania State Education Association;
15 Dr. Richard Fry, President of the PA Association
16 of School Administrators; and Beth Jones,
17 Secretary of PA Coalition of Public Charter
18 Schools.
19 We'd ask you to all identify yourselves
20 when you begin, for the record; and you can
21 begin whenever you're set up and ready.
22 MR. ASKEY: Good morning. I am Rich
23 Askey. I wish to thank Chairman Sonney,
24 Chairman Roebuck, and the members of the House
25 Education Committee for allowing PSEA to be part 27
1 of this hearing today. It's an important issue
2 for us.
3 Just as a little background, I am a
4 music educator with over three decades of
5 experience, most of which was spent teaching in
6 the Harrisburg School District at the elementary
7 level.
8 Currently, I am the president of the
9 Pennsylvania State Education Association, the
10 State's largest union of educators and education
11 support professionals.
12 On behalf of our 180,000 members, again,
13 I want to thank you for inviting PSEA to provide
14 testimony regarding proposed changes to
15 Pennsylvania's compulsory school age.
16 PSEA believes that Pennsylvania's
17 current laws pertaining to mandatory student
18 attendance do need to be reviewed and possibly
19 revised. We view Pennsylvania's policy for
20 compulsory school age as the baseline from which
21 a myriad of other educational policies are
22 built, and it is not an isolated policy.
23 Any changes to it, therefore, need to be
24 considered within the context of what is best
25 for student developmental learning and preparing 28
1 them for lifelong success, as well as the
2 ability of students, educators, and schools to
3 meet any new requirements.
4 With those factors in mind, PSEA
5 supports Governor Wolf's proposal to reduce the
6 minimum age from the current 8 years of age to 6
7 years.
8 This change reflects national policy and
9 aligns our statute with what is already common
10 practice for most students in Pennsylvania.
11 Updating Pennsylvania's policy for the minimum
12 starting age for school is a good start. It is
13 only words on paper, however, if not coupled
14 with significant and sustainable investments in
15 high-quality early childhood education.
16 PSEA appreciates the bipartisan
17 commitment on this issue over the years and
18 urges you to continue to invest in high-quality
19 pre-K in the fiscal year '19-'20 budget.
20 More than 97,000 eligible 3 and
21 4-year-old children don't have access to
22 high-quality pre-K. PSEA recently partnered with
23 the pre-K for PA campaign to survey our members
24 teaching kindergarten about their perception of
25 the impact of high-quality, publicly-funded 29
1 pre-K in-school readiness. Not surprisingly,
2 the responses clearly showed resounding support
3 for high-quality pre-K, recognizing that
4 children who don't attend such programs are
5 clearly starting behind their peers who did, in
6 terms of academic, social, and emotional
7 development.
8 An additional $50-million investment in
9 fiscal year '19-20's state budget, as Governor
10 Wolf has proposed, would provide 5500 children
11 access to pre-K and would continue
12 Pennsylvania's bipartisan commitment to chip
13 away at this gap.
14 In addition to supporting pre-K, PSEA
15 also supports universal full-day kindergarten to
16 help ensure children have a continuum of
17 learning and educational services from a young
18 age that will help them through their entire
19 academic career.
20 The administration has proposed
21 conducting a study to evaluate the long-term
22 impacts of providing universal access to free,
23 full-day kindergarten for all children in
24 Pennsylvania.
25 PSEA supports this data-driven approach 30
1 to evaluate the policy and identify potential
2 challenges to be addressed prior to full
3 implementation.
4 Governor Wolf has also called for an
5 increase in the maximum age for compulsory
6 school attendance from the current 17 years of
7 age to 18, raising the maximum compulsory age,
8 if combined with a system of supports, could be
9 valuable for reaffirming the state's expectation
10 that its students will attain certain
11 educational levels and help thousands of young
12 Pennsylvanians every year who fail to earn a
13 diploma.
14 While PSEA does not have an official
15 position on the Governor's proposal for raising
16 the maximum compulsory attendance age to 18
17 years of age, we do support House Bill 112
18 sponsored by Representative Dan Miller that
19 requires parental consent for anyone 17 years of
20 age seeking to drop out of school. Without
21 consent, the compulsory age is 18.
22 The real issue, though, is not so much
23 identifying the specific age for remaining in
24 school as it is collectively working together to
25 reduce Pennsylvania's dropout rate. 31
1 Decades of research demonstrate that
2 dropping out of school is a long-term process
3 that can be observed as early as elementary
4 school and is the result of student, family, and
5 school factors that can electively disengage
6 students from formal education.
7 The most effective prevention programs
8 address all three areas to reengage students in
9 learning. It is essential, therefore, that
10 Pennsylvania ensure comprehensive supports for
11 students across the pre-K12 continuum to keep
12 them engaged in learning and to provide them
13 with the tools they need for future success.
14 This support system must include
15 evidence-based programming, high-quality early
16 learning, pupil services that help improve our
17 students physical and mental wellness,
18 high-quality career education and workforce
19 readiness programs and student transition
20 programs focused on the middle grades into high
21 school.
22 PSEA is eager to continue to partner
23 with you and other policymakers to expand
24 Pennsylvania's efforts to support and retain our
25 students most at risk of dropping out of school. 32
1 Thank you.
2 MR. FRY: Good morning, Chairman Sonney,
3 Chairman Roebuck, and distinguished members of
4 the House Education Committee. My name is Rich
5 Fry. I'm Superintendent of Big Spring School
6 District in Cumberland County, the western part
7 of Cumberland County.
8 I'm also president of PASA, the State
9 Association for School Administrators,
10 representing superintendents, assistant
11 superintendents, and other school leaders
12 throughout the state.
13 You have a copy of our written
14 testimony, so I am not going to read through
15 that entire written format; but I will give you
16 highlights of some notes, much like Secretary
17 Rivera did, and reiterate some of his points.
18 PASA's in full support of the Governor's
19 proposal on both ends, with lowering the
20 compulsory age from 8 to 6 and then also raising
21 from 17 to 18. We're also in support of
22 Representative Dan Miller's House Bill 112 in
23 that regard. When we look at going from 8 to 6,
24 as stated by Secretary Rivera, we are one of two
25 states, the State of Washington being the other. 33
1 It's really important, as school
2 districts, we talk about cradle to career. We
3 want students through our doors as quickly as we
4 can get them there.
5 When they're not through our doors,
6 we're building relationships with community
7 organizations around us so we can have seamless
8 support, be it quality daycare, quality pre-K
9 programs; the sooner the better.
10 Pennsylvania's a state that prides
11 itself on choice. This type of legislation
12 absolutely doesn't take away the choice of a
13 family to start their student when they see it's
14 fit to do that. We have some of the most
15 progressive homeschooling legislation in the
16 country. It still allows families to do that.
17 We want kiddos through our doors so they
18 can get language acquisition skills and move
19 from a literacy perspective that has them
20 prepared by age 8, which is when we start
21 mandated state assessments as driven from the
22 federal level.
23 Language acquisition is absolutely
24 critical, and getting them through the doors and
25 having relationships outside our doors to build 34
1 that is imperative and one of the reasons at the
2 front-end that we support this legislation.
3 Also, engagement. Secretary Rivera
4 talked about engagement on the back end. And
5 these are absolutely two separate discussions:
6 starting age and when we allow someone to sign
7 out, which is a very serious consequence, when a
8 student on their own at age 17 signs out. Two
9 separate issues.
10 But on the front-end, it's also all
11 about building relationships, building
12 relationships with families and making sure
13 families are engaged. That engagement, if not
14 in place by third grade, and we don't have those
15 relationships in place, we're not going to get
16 the full effect.
17 So the goal on the back-end is to make
18 sure our students are life ready, career ready.
19 That's why cradle to career is so imperative.
20 And as we look at the back-end, some of the
21 significance of 17 to 18, as families or
22 students maybe do disengage a bit or find some
23 things that cause them pause with public
24 schooling, we want to make sure that we have
25 opportunities to reengage. 35
1 Right now, with 339 plans and trying to
2 get students career ready, some of those
3 opportunities include internships, co-ops,
4 apprenticeships. Many of those are limited by
5 age.
6 So if we have a student coming in at age
7 17 to sign out, that student isn't eligible for
8 internships throughout much of the state. Those
9 internships, from a legal perspective and for
10 many businesses, don't start until age 18. It
11 would open up the opportunity for, again, more
12 options that we can build bridges with families.
13 Secretary Rivera talked about the
14 statistics of what a dropout costs our system.
15 The more opportunities we have to engage those
16 families is critical, both in the urban setting
17 and in the rural setting; and I represent a
18 rural school district.
19 Seventy percent of school districts
20 throughout the state are rural school districts.
21 We have to build on those back-end opportunities
22 to make our young people lifelong learners. The
23 class of 2032, 70 percent of the jobs we're
24 preparing them for don't exist today. They're
25 not out there. 36
1 So the key is to make sure they're
2 lifelong learners, to have two more years added
3 to the window to prepare them in that process
4 would absolutely be paramount and still allow
5 for the choice that every resident of the
6 Commonwealth currently has. If they so want to
7 choose, they can certainly do that.
8 PASA stands behind the proposal by the
9 Governor and also Representative Miller's House
10 Bill 112. We think it's a step in the right
11 direction, and we would encourage your support
12 as well.
13 Thank you.
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Thank you.
15 MS. JONES: Good morning, Chairman
16 Sonney, Chairman Roebuck, and Honorable members
17 of the House Education Committee.
18 My name is Beth Jones, and I'm an
19 educator with over 25 years of experience in
20 Pennsylvania's public and public charter
21 schools.
22 I'm a founder of Collegium Charter
23 School, the current CFO of Insight PA Cyber
24 Charter School and a founder of the Coatesville
25 Charter School of Innovation, which is currently 37
1 in the application phase.
2 I'm here before you because I serve as
3 the secretary on the Board of the Pennsylvania
4 Coalition of Public Charter Schools, which
5 represents both brick and mortar and cyber
6 charters across the Commonwealth.
7 I would like to thank the Committee for
8 holding a hearing on the important topic of
9 compulsory school age, in an effort to gain a
10 better understanding of how Pennsylvania's
11 current laws are impacting schools and students.
12 The Charter School Coalition is in favor
13 of lowering the compulsory school age from 8 to
14 6 years and eliminating the ability of a
15 17-year-old to drop out of school without the
16 permission of their parent or guardian.
17 Children need connections in an
18 educational community, and they need to graduate
19 from high school. Our current compulsory
20 education law allows families to shelter
21 children from an educational community until age
22 8, an age by which most children have been
23 receiving schooling for at least three full
24 years; thus, denying those children
25 opportunities to be educated. 38
1 I strongly believe in the choice of
2 families to educate children in the method best
3 suited for their children and their family,
4 whether that's traditional public schools,
5 public charter schools, public cyber charters,
6 private schools, parochial schools, or
7 homeschooling.
8 But listen, young children want to
9 learn. They possess an innate curiosity to
10 explore and grow, and our laws should not allow
11 parents to reject opportunities for their
12 children to begin their education with their
13 peers.
14 And our older students need the support
15 of the law to demonstrate to them the critical
16 importance of remaining in school and graduating
17 from high school. We all recognize how
18 difficult adult life is without a high school
19 diploma, at a minimum.
20 We cannot continue to have a law in the
21 books that permits a juvenile an opportunity to
22 leave school before graduating. Simply by
23 having this law, we are essentially saying to
24 teens, go ahead; leave school; it's okay. But
25 we all know it is not. 39
1 By extending the upper age limit of
2 compulsory education requirements,
3 Pennsylvania's graduation rates will increase,
4 and these students will be more capable of
5 meeting the needs of 21st Century employers and
6 the prerequisites of postsecondary education.
7 Again, I thank the Committee for
8 inviting the Pennsylvania Coalition of Public
9 Charter Schools to participate in this morning's
10 discussion on compulsory school age.
11 The Coalition is committed to its
12 mission to advocate for legislation and policies
13 that positively impact Pennsylvania schools and
14 the students and families they serve.
15 Changing Pennsylvania's compulsory
16 school age will position our young students for
17 early educational success and ensures that
18 students remain in school until a majority age,
19 providing them opportunities to graduate and
20 setting a path for greater career and lifetime
21 earning potential.
22 Thank you again for this opportunity,
23 and I'm happy to answer any questions the
24 Committee may have.
25 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Thank you. 40
1 First, I'd like to announce that we've
2 also been joined by Representatives Kail,
3 Isaacson and Gaydos.
4 Representative Gleim.
5 REPRESENTATIVE GLEIM: I just have a
6 policy question actually out of this idea in the
7 bill, is that we're allowing the parents to help
8 their child opt out at 17, but we're not
9 allowing the parents to allow them to opt out at
10 the compulsory age of 6.
11 So can you explain to me why one is
12 optional and the other is not?
13 MS. JONES: Well, my opinion, it
14 shouldn't be optional. I feel like the student
15 should remain in school, but I feel like we have
16 to move -- there's only so much that you can
17 move at one time.
18 And right now, I think it's more
19 critical to get the younger students in school
20 early, because if you set them on a path to
21 success at an early age, they will naturally
22 want to remain in school until they graduate.
23 MR. ASKEY: I also think that we're,
24 overall, just looking for a better standard in
25 Pennsylvania's educational policy of making sure 41
1 that our students have the best opportunities.
2 It's clear over and over again when you
3 look at research that the sooner our students
4 start, the better off they are; so I think we're
5 just thinking of setting a standard for what's
6 best for our kids.
7 MR. FRY: Representative Gleim, it's
8 also about the given in the statement. And the
9 given would be that by age 6, the family would
10 have to make a decision and if they're coming
11 through the doors or deciding for a charter,
12 then that would be the decision, or they could
13 choose from a homeschool perspective.
14 But engagement is just not about the
15 student. We engage the families. So we want
16 them through the door; we want to build bridges
17 with them at that point. And on the back-end,
18 it's making sure we have that communication with
19 those parents at age 17 to say, listen, here's
20 the statistics; here's what it looks like in
21 Cumberland County; you know, here's what it
22 takes, here's what the earning potential is
23 without. We educate the family on that, and it
24 takes a parent's signature to be able to
25 withdraw at that point. Right now, it doesn't. 42
1 At age 17, it's quite scary to have the ability
2 to sign out as a young person.
3 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY:
4 Representative McCarter.
5 REPRESENTATIVE MCCARTER: Thank you very
6 much, Mr. Chairman. There are a couple other
7 things that I think are critically important as
8 we analyze both of these particular decisions,
9 and a very interesting one and I thank Dr. Fry
10 very much for bringing up the concept of
11 lifelong learning.
12 Back when we set the compulsory ages, or
13 at least one of them back in 1895, the idea of
14 lifelong learning was something that was not on
15 the table. Literally, life spans at that
16 particular time were under 50 years of age. And
17 so when we talked about students being able to
18 sign themselves out or starting school at age 8,
19 there was a far different criteria, I think, in
20 looking and analyzing the situation than we have
21 today.
22 I was a teacher for 35 years, also; and
23 I surely know that the nature of students at age
24 17, most would never consider dropping out of
25 school. However, there is a small percentage 43
1 that would at the top of the scale that we're
2 talking about of signing themselves out of
3 school.
4 And we also know that every year you
5 stay in school your average yearly earnings
6 increase and your lifetime earnings increase, as
7 well, from a financial standpoint. And they
8 also, I would suspect, become better citizens,
9 knowledgeable citizens within our society.
10 So my question to all three of you would
11 be, basically, I'm trying to find a reason not
12 to support this from a standpoint of the 21st
13 Century.
14 Is there any reason that I would have
15 not to be able to support from an economic
16 standpoint, from a social standpoint, or from a
17 philosophical standpoint at this point of not
18 being able to support these changes that are
19 proposed?
20 MR. FRY: The analogy I would have,
21 about ten years ago at Big Spring, we mandated
22 full-day kindergarten. And though it made great
23 sense and the research was very strong that we
24 wanted our students through our doors again
25 early and a language acquisition, our community 44
1 -- there were folks that were absolutely not in
2 support of that, and our board was very split, a
3 five/four vote; we got full-day kindergarten
4 roughly ten years ago.
5 And it's probably one of the biggest
6 decisions that seated board made and boards
7 after that in support of it. Because again,
8 with skills that they need to obtain to become
9 lifelong learners to set those building blocks,
10 it was a decision that was absolutely profound
11 for our district, but yet had some controversy.
12 I see this very similarly. My community
13 looked at it, it should be their choice. They
14 should be able to choose half-day or full-day.
15 That's no different than in this decision. My
16 perspective is, we're not taking that choice
17 away.
18 If a family does not want to send their
19 child, they have the opportunity to homeschool;
20 and we do our best to build bridges with those
21 homeschool students.
22 So from a philosophical standpoint, I
23 don't believe we're taking anything away. We're
24 just saying, as a Commonwealth, we want our
25 students in our buildings, with our charters, 45
1 wherever they need to be, at an age that's
2 appropriate to start the learning process from a
3 language acquisition.
4 Because by the age of 8, if there's
5 deficits, we're playing catchup from there on
6 out; and that lasts a lifetime when we talk
7 about lifetime learners.
8 MR. ASKEY: If I may, I'd like to just
9 talk as someone who taught in the Harrisburg
10 School District for over 30 years and explain to
11 you what I saw a difference in.
12 About 15 years ago under a different
13 administration, we had a stellar pre-K program
14 in Harrisburg School District. I worked with
15 those kids, and I had those kids after they went
16 through that pre-K program. The difference that
17 I saw in the students that attended that pre-K
18 program and the students that did not, was
19 clear.
20 The students that attended that pre-K
21 program were far advanced academically,
22 socially, and emotionally. Also, Harrisburg
23 gives you lots of opportunities, let's just say
24 that.
25 I also was able to work in the 46
1 alternative high school program, and I saw that
2 giving students close to the end of their public
3 education an alternative track so that they
4 could achieve their high school diploma and we
5 could engage those students, we could engage
6 those parents, we could engage the community
7 around them, it made a huge difference.
8 And our -- we had many many students
9 that were able to get a high school diploma that
10 if they did not have those supports and did not
11 have the push to make sure they crossed the
12 finish line, would not be living the life they
13 are living today.
14 MS. JONES: So I'll be real direct to
15 your question: I don't have any reason why you
16 should not support this. It's in the best
17 interest of our younger students and our older
18 students across the Commonwealth.
19 REPRESENTATIVE MCCARTER: Thank you, Mr.
20 Chairman.
21 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY:
22 Representative Miller.
23 REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: Thank you, Mr.
24 Chairman. I want to thank the Chair for putting
25 on this hearing today on such an important 47
1 topic.
2 A lot was said. I know time is short.
3 I just kind of wanted to go off another
4 Representative's thoughts. You know, I may be
5 the only Representative here in Harrisburg who
6 signed himself out of school at 17.
7 So about three months before I was 18, I
8 walked. I didn't ask my parents' permission. I
9 didn't even talk to them. They didn't know
10 about it for 72 hours, and I left in my senior
11 year.
12 And I left with an idea of what I wanted
13 to do, and I learned a lot very quickly; and it
14 was a mistake. It was a massive mistake with a
15 lot of repercussions.
16 One of the issues as to why I kind of
17 jumped on this topic was also in relation to
18 foster kids. Because when I was a solicitor for
19 CYS, I can't tell you how many times we would
20 have conversations with kids who were in the
21 foster care system, frustrated for A, B and C or
22 whatever reason that they had, and they were
23 able to walk.
24 And as soon as that 17 thing hit, our
25 ability to help a population in particular that 48
1 maybe wouldn't have a chance or as great a
2 chance as I did to rebound were rushing out and
3 making a decision to get out, of not only the
4 school district but the system itself.
5 So I just wanted to mention that and to
6 provide some degree of context as to why I think
7 it is important that we put in at the bare
8 minimum some type of discussion that occurs
9 before we trust a 17-year-old to make such a
10 fundamental decision without, in my case, any
11 dialogue with anyone at all.
12 And if I could look back and change
13 anything in my life given what came from that
14 decision, I would change that. It has nothing
15 to do partying or being there for senior year or
16 whatever else. It was a bad call. And some of
17 the other kids who went along the same path I
18 did, it was even worse.
19 But I am concerned about the kids today,
20 especially in the foster care system where the
21 courts have no ability to make those types of
22 decisions.
23 And I was wondering if anybody had any
24 quick moment to talk -- to mention about kids
25 with disabilities and IEPs and the value, 49
1 perhaps, of transitioning sooner from an IFSP
2 into an IEP as another type of population in
3 need?
4 MR. FRY: So, obviously, under IDA, our
5 transition goals start at age 14 with our IEP
6 population. And again, it's all about building
7 programs. At Big Spring, we have a program
8 called Hire Me, where part of our transition
9 goals, our students that qualify, our IEP
10 students are working at Shippensburg University
11 in a variety of tasks, much like an internship.
12 It has been such a phenomenal program
13 for those students the last three years that
14 we've built that in for our regular-ed students
15 beyond Shippensburg University, that we're now
16 expanding our apprenticeships, internships, and
17 co-ops that it's part of a personalized diploma
18 process.
19 So again, build that bridge with those
20 students. Again, foster children have many
21 starts and stops and advocacy and their feeling
22 of having an advocate for them is not an easy
23 route to build for school districts. But if we
24 have options that have relevance for them, we
25 can make some strides. And to have that 50
1 opportunity potentially to age 18 when again,
2 they could be on the floor in a manufacturing
3 facility or -- it opens up a whole different
4 realm that we can maybe, maybe light that fire
5 to help grow that lifelong learning process and
6 give them an opportunity.
7 So from an IEP with those transition
8 goals, we want to make sure that we get them
9 some relevance as quickly as we can, starting to
10 build those skills at age 14 with their
11 goal-setting process, and then give them the
12 opportunity prior to age 21 for many of them,
13 that they have the opportunity to build that.
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY:
15 Representative Gillen.
16 REPRESENTATIVE GILLEN: So, Dan, part of
17 your pathway that led you to the Legislature was
18 dropping out of high school at 17? Did I hear
19 your testimony correctly? Go ahead. I'm only
20 messing with you.
21 Rich, thank you for your distinguished
22 service in the Harrisburg School District
23 teaching and music. We're a homeschool family,
24 and I have a daughter who plays the harp. We've
25 got one that plays the violin. We've got a 51
1 piano player, a clarinet player; and I'm
2 struggling with the harmonica.
3 My colleague is sitting down on the
4 other side, Patty Kim, and I know you've worked
5 hard to make the Harrisburg School District a
6 better place. Nonetheless, there are
7 challenges; and it's been in the newspaper
8 recently relative to a prospective state
9 takeover.
10 Eleven percent proficiency in math; 22
11 percent in reading calls for rising levels --
12 the need for academic achievement and the
13 failure to comply with Pennsylvania Department
14 of Education directives.
15 You're asking for more students. You'd
16 like more 6 and 7-year-olds in that environment.
17 Could someone explain to me the ability of the
18 school district right here where we stand, where
19 we sit to absorb more students and give them a
20 quality education?
21 MR. ASKEY: Well, I think, first of all,
22 you have to do what is best for the children and
23 what is best for the community. And right now,
24 I can only testify to a previous administration
25 that was giving our students the best 52
1 opportunities possible, where academic
2 achievement was growing, where they were
3 receiving exactly the education that they needed
4 to under that administration.
5 There are problems. I'm not going to
6 sit here and say there are not problems in
7 Harrisburg, but there is the fact that it is the
8 only place as public education is, the only
9 place that our doors are open to everybody. And
10 we service those students.
11 And when communities are struggling, the
12 schools are there to help them; and that's what
13 the teachers and the support staff of Harrisburg
14 School District are there to do, to support the
15 students and give them the best opportunities
16 that they can.
17 MS. JONES: I'm certainly not an expert
18 in Harrisburg schools. That's not a place where
19 I've had any experience, other than what I read
20 in the newspaper.
21 But I will remind everyone that parents
22 have choice. So it's not as Representative
23 Gillen said, where they just can only go to the
24 Harrisburg School District. This compulsory-ed
25 age change would be reflected to charter 53
1 schools, as well as homeschooling organizations,
2 so that students can start being part of an
3 educational community. Doesn't necessarily have
4 to be the traditional public school environment.
5 And I would just remind everyone that
6 just because something might be difficult,
7 especially thinking about those 17-year-olds who
8 are adamant that they want to drop out and they
9 know what's right; but just because it's
10 difficult doesn't mean that we shouldn't take
11 this opportunity to make changes that we know
12 are for the better of our students.
13 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Thank you.
14 Any other questions? I'd like to thank
15 the testifiers. Thank you.
16 MR. ASKEY: Thank you.
17 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Next up is
18 Angela Davis, Christian Homeschool Association;
19 and Ellen Kramer, Catholic Homeschools of
20 Pennsylvania.
21 For the essence of time, since we do
22 have your written testimony, I would ask that
23 you would be very, very brief in remarks so we
24 could get right to questions; because we do have
25 to get to the floor. We're running a little bit 54
1 late.
2 So please introduce yourselves and be as
3 brief as possible. Thank you.
4 MS. DAVIS: Okay. Good morning,
5 Chairman Sonney, ranking member Roebuck, and
6 members of the Education Committee.
7 My name is Angela Davis, and I'm the
8 Director of Support Services and Administration
9 for Christian Homeschool Association of
10 Pennsylvania, better known as CHAP.
11 I'm also a parent who's had two children
12 graduate through homeschooling in Pennsylvania
13 and have successfully completed college. I
14 don't have to tell the Education Committee how
15 studies show that homeschooling works and that
16 the average test results in homeschool students
17 in Pennsylvania alone is 30 to 36 percentile
18 points above the US public school average.
19 CHAP is a nonprofit organization. We
20 have over a thousand family members that are
21 homeschooling compliant with Pennsylvania's
22 Homeschool Law, so our mission is to provide
23 support for those families and all.
24 But CHAP is opposed to House Bill 593
25 and the proposed expansion of the compulsory 55
1 attendance age for several reasons. I'll just
2 touch on those.
3 As you've said, I've heard actually some
4 very positive things about education in
5 Pennsylvania here today. But for homeschoolers,
6 there could be an ambiguity of the diploma
7 program for those that are 17 and finished and
8 completed all of their things. You know, do
9 they have to have the written proposal and
10 things like that from the parents and stuff, or
11 are they guaranteed a diploma?
12 The delay in starting a formal
13 education, the mandatory part of it for lowering
14 the compulsory age is another concern for
15 homeschooling families, and the additional
16 financial burden that would be placed on
17 homeschool families and all taxpayers with any
18 increase in regulations.
19 As you're well aware, homeschooling
20 parents in Pennsylvania must file a notarized
21 affidavit, record hours of instruction, maintain
22 a portfolio including required testing. They
23 have to have their children evaluated by a
24 qualified evaluator and submit the evaluator's
25 certification to the superintendent of the local 56
1 school district. And these are required for the
2 compulsory attendance school age of 8 to 17.
3 If you're changing it from 6 to 18,
4 you've now added two to three years of
5 evaluations and you're saying that homeschoolers
6 would need to have -- I've spoken to an
7 evaluator, and they said that -- she expressed
8 great concern and that evaluating children under
9 the age of 8, could be detrimental to the child.
10 At these young ages, education's done
11 through play, experience and immersion learning.
12 A portfolio can't adequately represent this type
13 of education and allow an evaluator to
14 objectively state that appropriate education is
15 taking place.
16 That's what's required by the Homeschool
17 Law and the compulsory ages. So that's why
18 we're opposing making this mandatory, because it
19 would affect the Homeschool Law as it now stands
20 in Pennsylvania, and just the added cost for
21 families. They're already invested in their
22 children in educating.
23 I would just give you a couple of
24 examples, because I work in the CHAP office and
25 get a lot of phone calls from families that are 57
1 interested in it. When the schools districts
2 were experiencing some budget impasses and
3 delayed opening their schools, the CHAP office
4 received several phone calls from families and
5 they wanted to start their education, they
6 wanted to know, okay, what do I need to do? The
7 schools aren't open; they're delayed and all.
8 So where can they obtain a curriculum? What are
9 they teaching and all?
10 Parents do want to teach their young
11 children. And many of them found that once they
12 started in the homeschooling thing, they
13 continued; and that was a better option for
14 them. But mandating and requiring all the legal
15 paperwork and recordkeeping and things like that
16 can keep them.
17 Prior to 2014 when Pennsylvania was
18 viewed as one of the five most difficult states
19 in which to homeschool -- in 2014, our
20 Homeschool Law was improved and families gained
21 a little more freedom to educate their children,
22 from some of the burdens and regulations that
23 had been on there.
24 In the CHAP office, we receive calls
25 from families that have job opportunities to 58
1 move to the state of Pennsylvania, but they're
2 reluctant because they say, I want to homeschool
3 and I've heard such arduous things about the
4 homeschooling laws in Pennsylvania.
5 I don't want to see a further mandate
6 and expansion of that to give the idea that
7 Pennsylvania is not involved in giving parents
8 the choice to make their homeschooling
9 educational laws.
10 Homeschoolers are important, but
11 sometimes a forgotten population in
12 Pennsylvania's education community. We oppose
13 this legislation because it places additional
14 and unnecessary burdens on our families.
15 There's an estimated number of 66 to
16 80,000 cases, K-12 homeschooling students in
17 Pennsylvania, just in the spring of 2018.
18 Please remember this population when you
19 consider this bill.
20 I speak for many homeschool families who
21 oppose this bill. The Homeschool Legal Defense
22 Association recorded 8,723 messages sent to
23 Pennsylvania House of Representatives opposing
24 this bill through their messaging tool in the
25 last week. I'm sure there were additional 59
1 homeschooling families voicing their opposition
2 as well. So please reject this intrusive piece
3 of legislation, as it will increase the tax
4 burden on all families in Pennsylvania.
5 If you have questions or desire further
6 dialogue, please feel free to contact the CHAP
7 office. I do have some folders with
8 homeschooling information if you're interested
9 at all, and you're all welcome to attend our
10 annual homeschool convention coming up this
11 month on the 14th and 15th in Lancaster.
12 Thank you very much for providing me the
13 opportunity to share CHAP's view for opposing
14 the legislation.
15 MS. KRAMER: Representative Sonney,
16 Representative Roebuck, and members of the
17 Committee, my name is Ellen Kramer and my
18 husband and I are the cofounders of the Catholic
19 Homeschoolers of Pennsylvania.
20 We began homeschooling in 1992, and we
21 have addressed this issue as homeschoolers many
22 times. I've lost count of how many times this
23 compulsory attendance age issue has come up.
24 Being very realistic here, you have my
25 testimony. There are some other things I want 60
1 to say in addition to that. People don't know,
2 en masse across this state, unless you publicize
3 that you're changing the law, they do not know
4 that the compulsory attendance age is 8. They
5 think that the compulsory attendance age is 5
6 and that they have to get permission for their
7 children to go to school at 6.
8 I know, because I was there; and I've
9 talked to hundreds of families who are in that
10 situation. Unless people are beginning to
11 homeschool and they start asking around about
12 how do I do that and what do I do with the
13 school district and paperwork and so forth,
14 that's when they find out.
15 People in Pennsylvania do not know where
16 -- the people who sat here earlier are saying
17 that there's numbers of people who are not
18 educating their kids until age 8 and that it's
19 any kind of an issue, I don't understand. I
20 just don't get it. Because that's not the
21 reality in the state. Everybody thinks it's 5,
22 and they think they need permission to have
23 their kids not enter school if they're going
24 through the school system at age 6.
25 So the only people that this affects, in 61
1 reality, is the homeschoolers, and as Angela
2 said, doing the evaluations and paperwork for 6
3 and 7-year-olds.
4 And quite often, it's even come up just
5 in the last week or two, I was addressing a
6 question on Facebook with people who were
7 saying, if my child turns 8 next school year,
8 when do I have to start doing the paperwork? So
9 people still, even within the homeschool
10 community, they don't always have clarity on
11 that; but they know that 8 is the compulsory age
12 only if they're homeschooling.
13 The other thing is age 17. I have a
14 daughter who now has an MBA; and, in fact, two
15 of them have Master's degrees. The third one is
16 chomping at the bit, but starting a family
17 before he was able to do that.
18 My youngest wasn't able to start at
19 HACC, and she just wanted to take one course
20 that semester. They wouldn't let her start
21 because they were afraid that she was going to
22 be fully a college student; so she had to wait
23 three days till she turned 17, in order to take
24 a class.
25 There shouldn't be -- you shouldn't 62
1 always look at children who aren't in the
2 kindergarten to 12 age as dropouts. If they're
3 not in school, they can be. They don't
4 necessarily have to quit school, but they can be
5 going to college.
6 There's children I know in the school
7 system that couldn't move as fast as they needed
8 to, and they started college at age 15. There
9 are children who do that, and the parents will
10 homeschool rather than complaining about the
11 homeschool and how they're not helping their
12 child through; or the other end, they're falling
13 through the cracks.
14 They'll homeschool. They'll take the
15 responsibility themselves. They don't go around
16 knocking the school systems. They just do it
17 themselves. And when their children are ready
18 to move to the next level and not be in a lower
19 academic setting, they're moving them on to
20 college; and we need to acknowledge that aspect
21 as well.
22 And homeschoolers, typically, there's
23 co-ops, there's all sorts of things that have
24 the kids getting all excited about education.
25 They are the lifelong learners. And even the 63
1 parents, I still learn all sorts of stuff. I
2 have hundreds of books in my attic I still
3 haven't read. And my husband said, Why don't
4 you sell them? I said, No, I'm going to read
5 them because I want to learn all that stuff.
6 I don't read any fiction. I read all
7 nonfiction, and my kids do, too. So we need to
8 realize that the homeschoolers are really the
9 only ones who are going to be affected by this.
10 I have not heard any evidence of a child
11 entering a public school at age 8 and going into
12 first grade. I haven't heard it. I would
13 challenge somebody to find that, but I haven't
14 heard it.
15 And if parents do have their children at
16 home and they aren't sending them to school
17 because they have a bad immune system or some
18 other issue is going on, they're doing something
19 with them.
20 The lady who said that kids want to
21 learn, she was perfectly right, they do; but
22 parents also want to teach and parents don't
23 want to see their children, you know, dependent
24 on them for the rest of their life. They want
25 them to succeed; they want them to grow and 64
1 perform. So I would urge you to not lower the
2 compulsory attendance age.
3 Thank you.
4 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Thank you.
5 Representative Kim.
6 REPRESENTATIVE KIM: Thank you so much
7 for your testimony. I'm a big supporter of this
8 bill, so it was really nice to hear your
9 perspective, and it's an important one for
10 homeschoolers. I think homeschool parents do a
11 great job with students.
12 I'm going to put you on the spot a
13 little bit. I don't think it's either reject or
14 vote this in. I think we can massage this bill
15 so that it can work for everyone.
16 Would you be okay with bringing down the
17 compulsory age to 6 but there are no
18 requirements for homeschoolers to put in
19 paperwork until 8? Would you be open to that?
20 MS. KRAMER: I personally don't know if
21 there would be people, other than homeschoolers,
22 who would have an issue with that.
23 REPRESENTATIVE KIM: Okay.
24 MS. KRAMER: In Philadelphia right now,
25 it is that age 6 and 7, they just have to notify 65
1 them that the children are being home schooled.
2 REPRESENTATIVE KIM: Right.
3 MS. KRAMER: But I don't know that that
4 -- homeschoolers aren't looking to be the
5 exception. We really aren't.
6 REPRESENTATIVE KIM: I understand, yeah.
7 But we want to work with you --
8 MS. KRAMER: But right now, nothing's
9 broken. And so by passing legislation to lower
10 the compulsory attendance age, it's not fixing
11 anything.
12 REPRESENTATIVE KIM: Okay. But what I'm
13 hearing correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong,
14 that the paperwork, the expenses is the largest
15 burden if we bring down the compulsory age. So
16 I was trying to work around that, that you
17 wouldn't have to notarize and do affidavits
18 until age 8; because, yeah, I mean, performance
19 for a 6-year-old, how do you really gauge that?
20 They're so young.
21 But would you be okay with a bill that
22 paperwork is only required at 8, even though the
23 compulsory age is at 6?
24 MS. KRAMER: I guess I would look at
25 that and say -- because it sounds like I've 66
1 heard from others that were here today saying,
2 Oh, we're mandating compulsory -- you know, the
3 age for it, but they have choices; they can
4 homeschool.
5 Homeschool is a choice, but it's a
6 dedicated choice and it takes effort and things.
7 I don't want this law to go through and then the
8 homeschoolers for 6 and 7-year-olds to be
9 suddenly flooded and increased with, Oh, yeah,
10 we're going to homeschool and all these intent
11 notices, if their objection is just they really
12 don't want formalized education for that child.
13 So it doesn't really sound like a win to
14 me for homeschoolers. It sounds like, you know,
15 you're making an exception, making an out; and
16 you're going to increase the number of
17 homeschoolers, which is great, you know, as they
18 start. But are they doing it for the right
19 reasons that we want them to -- that they choose
20 to homeschool?
21 REPRESENTATIVE KIM: All right. Thank
22 you for your feedback. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
23 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: Thank you.
24 And we do have to wrap it up. We have to get to
25 the floor. If members have any additional 67
1 questions, they can submit them to me or
2 Chairman Roebuck; and we'll make sure that the
3 correct testifier gets to answer those
4 questions.
5 So thank you very much for joining us
6 here today.
7 MS. DAVIS: Thank you.
8 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SONNEY: This meeting
9 is adjourned.
10 (Whereupon, the hearing concluded.)
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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3 I hereby certify that the proceedings
4 are contained fully and accurately in the notes
5 taken by me on the within proceedings and that
6 this is a correct transcript of the same.
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9 ______Tracy L. Markle, Court Reporter 10 Notary Public
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