DAILY

YOUR VOICE IN PARLIAMENT

THE FIRSTTHE SECOND MEETING MEETING OF THE OF THE FIFTH FIFTH SESSION SESSION OF THEOF ELEVENTHTHE ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT PARLIAMENT WEDNESDAYTUESDAYMONDAY 13 2507 NOVEMBER MARCHNOVEMBER 2019 2018 2018

ENGLISH VERSION HANSARD NO. 192

DISCLAIMER Unofficial Hansard This transcript of Parliamentary proceedings is an unofficial version of the Hansard and may contain inaccuracies. It is hereby published for general purposes only. The final edited version of the Hansard will be published when available and can be obtained from the Assistant Clerk (Editorial). THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon. Gladys K. T. Kokorwe PH, MP. DEPUTY SPEAKER The Hon. Kagiso P. Molatlhegi, MP Gaborone South

Clerk of the National Assembly -- Ms B. N. Dithapo Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly -- Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe Learned Parliamentary Counsel -- Ms M. Mokgosi Assistant Clerk (E) -- Mr R. Josiah CABINET His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP --President

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP. (Boteti West) --Vice President

Hon. F. S. Van Der Westhuizen, MP. (Kgalagadi South) --Minister of Local Government and Rural Development

Hon. D. K. Makgato, MP. (Sefhare - Ramokgonami) --Minister of Transport and Communications - Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. N. E. Molefhi, MP. (Selebi Phikwe East) - Administration

Hon. S. Kgathi, MP. (Bobonong) --Minister of Defence, Justice and Security -Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation and Hon. O. K. Mokaila, MP. (Specially Elected) - Tourism Hon. B. Arone, MP. (Okavango) --Minister of Basic Education Hon. M. N. Ngaka, MP () --Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs

Hon. O. K. Matambo, MP. (Specially Elected) --Minister of Finance and Economic Development

Hon. V. T. Seretse, MP. ( - ) --Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development

Hon. T. Olopeng, MP. (Tonota) --Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology Hon. Dr U. Dow, MP. (Specially Elected) --Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation -Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Hon. T. Mabeo, MP. ( - ) - Development Hon. Dr A. Madigele, MP. (Mmathethe - -Minister of Health and Wellness Molapowabojang) - -Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Energy Hon. E. M. Molale, MP. (Specially Elected) - Security Hon. K. Mzwinila, MP. (Mmadinare) --Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Hon. T. S. Khama, MP. (Serowe West) --Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Development

Hon. P. P. Ralotsia, MP. (Kanye North) --Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security

Hon. B. J. Kenewendo, MP. (Specially Elected) --Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Hon. B. M. Tshireletso, MP. (Mahalapye East) --Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development Hon. M. M. Goya, MP. (Palapye) --Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry -Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. D. P. Makgalemele, MP. (Shoshong) - Development -Assistant Minister, Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Hon. F. M. M. Molao, MP (Shashe West) - Technology

Hon. K. K. Autlwetse, MP (Serowe North) --Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development

Hon. G. B. Butale, MP. (Tati West) --Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness

Hon. T. Kwerepe, MP. (Ngami) --Assistant Minister, Basic Education

-Assistant Minister, Land Management, Water and Sanitation Hon. I. E. Moipisi, MP. (Kgalagadi North) - Services -Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. M. R. Shamukuni, MP (Chobe) - Administration

Hon. K. Markus, MP. (Maun East) --Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Security MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

Names Constituency

RULING PARTY ( Democratic Party) Hon. Dr P. Venson-Moitoi, MP Serowe South Hon. S. M. Guma, MP Tati East Hon. C. De Graaff, MP Ghanzi South Hon. P. M. Maele, MP Lerala - Maunatlala Hon. L. Kablay, MP - Hon. S. Lelatisitswe, MP Boteti East Hon. J. Molefe, MP Mahalapye West Hon. P. Majaga, MP Nata-Gweta Hon. M. I. Moswaane, MP Francistown West Hon. B. H. Billy, MP Francistown East Hon. E. J. Batshu, MP Nkange Hon. S. Kebonang, MP Lobatse Hon. K. S. Gare, MP Moshupa-Manyana Hon. M. R. Reatile, MP Specially Elected OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon. Adv. D. G. Boko, MP (Leader of Opposition) Gaborone Bonnington North Hon. G. S. M. Mangole, MP Mochudi West Hon. A. S. Kesupile, MP Kanye South Hon. N. S. L. M. Salakae, MP Ghanzi North Hon. Dr. T. O. M. Mmatli, MP South Hon. S. Ntlhaile, MP Jwaneng -Mabutsane Hon. M. I. Khan, MP Molepolole North Hon. Kgosi Lotlamoreng II Goodhope - Mabule Hon. D. L. Keorapetse, MP Selebi Phikwe West Hon. S. O. S. Rantuana, MP Ramotswa Hon. K. M. Segokgo, MP Tlokweng Hon. B. M. Molebatsi, MP Mochudi East Hon. H. G. Nkaigwa, MP Gaborone North (Alliance for Progressives) Hon. W. B. Mmolotsi, MP Francistown South Hon. Maj. Gen. P. Mokgware, MP - Hon. N. N. Gaolathe, MP Gaborone Bonnington South Hon. S. Kgoroba, MP Hon. Dr P. Butale, MP Gaborone Central (Independent Member of Parliament) Hon. T. Moremi, MP Maun West TABLE OF CONTENTS THE SECOND MEETING OF THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT MONDAY 25 MARCH, 2019

CONTENTS PAGE (S)

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER...... 1 - 7

APPROPRIATION (2019/2020) BILL, 2019 (NO. 1 OF 2019) Committee of Supply Organisation 2600: Ministry of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Development (Resumed Debate)...... 13 - 26

STATEMENT Statement to Parliament on the Implications of Brexit on the Republic of Botswana...... 8 - 11

Organisation 2700: Ministry of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology...... 27- 37

Monday 25th March 2019 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Monday 25th March, 2019 MR MOKAILA: Honourable Mmolotsi is leading me astray because he already knows the answer to his THE ASSEMBLY met at 2:00 p.m. question, he knows very well that life cannot be bought (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) and that is a fact. That is why I said that this is a very sensitive issue which needs to be handled with caution. P R A Y E R S That is why we often have reviews to try and see how this matter can be improved. We are currently trying * * * * to reinstate the Community Based Natural Resource QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER Management (CBNRM) so that the situation can be enhanced. Thank you. COMPENSATION FOR WILDLIFE OFFICERS KILLED BY WILD ANIMALS WHILST ON MR MANGOLE: Further supplementary. There is no DUTY doubt that the human life does not have a price tag. In every situation where someone gets injured, there is an MR B. M. MOLEBATSI (MOCHUDI EAST): assessment being carried out to establish how fit that asked the Minister of Environment, Natural Resources person was as well as the contribution they made to their Conservation and Tourism to state how wildlife officers family. This assessment determines their compensation. are compensated when they are killed by wild animals The question is, do you also carry out this assessment whilst on duty and what happens in the case where a when someone has been killed by wildlife? That is the human being is killed by a wild animal. simple question. We know that this is a sensitive matter and that issues of human life are also sensitive. MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, NATURAL RESOURCES CONSERVATION AND TOURISM MR MOKAILA: I believe my response has answered (MR MOKAILA): Good afternoon Mr Speaker. Mr your question. I just said that obviously any circumstance Speaker, when wildlife officers are killed by wildlife is different for all of us. If you can faint and lose your animals whilst on duty, they are compensated using the life right now, no compensation is going to be issued. Workman’s Compensation Act, Chapter 47:03. There is We do not even know what your potential is or maybe a no other dispensation available beyond this. This is that is all your worth, I do not know. I was explaining also applicable to all Government employees. that this is why every often we look at these things. We are trying to fact it in. That is why we are saying that When a human being who is not working for Government is killed by wildlife, the Government pays these animals should develop the livelihood of people. funeral expenses at the rate of P20, 000.00 and an ex It can offer much more, that is why there is this whole gratia payment of P50, 000.00. I thank you Mr Speaker. debate that wildlife should compensate people, sustain their lives and be their insurance so that there is that MR MOLEBATSI: Supplementary. We thank you continuity in payment. Thank you. Honourable Minister for that answer. Minister, are you satisfied with the compensation that is given to people MR MANGOLE: On a point of order Mr Speaker. who do not work for Wildlife who are killed by wild animals? MR SPEAKER (MR MOLATLHEGI): Honourable Mokaila, he is complaining that you should withdraw MR MOKAILA: Mr Speaker, the issue of compensation the part of your statement which is not part of your is very complicated. I believe that everyone has their response worth therefore I cannot say that I am satisfied. It is a very sensitive issue which requires to be handled with MR MOKAILA: I withdraw Mr Speaker. caution. Thank you Mr Speaker. TENDERING PROCESS FOR CONSTRUCTION MR MMOLOTSI: Further supplementary. Minister is OF RURAL AREA DEVELOPMENT this ex gratia payment supposed to sustain the family PROGRAMME (RADP) HOUSES IN whose breadwinner has been killed by wildlife? When MABUTSANE SUB-DISTRICT someone was working, there is a compensation that they are given if they die in a certain way. If they have been MR S. M. NTLHAILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): killed by elephants, do you believe that the compensation asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural which is given to the family is enough to sustain them? Development if he is aware that the tendering process

Hansard No 193 1 Monday 25th March 2019 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

for construction of Rural Area Development Programme (vi) Qualifying local contractors from Mabutsane Sub- (RADP) houses in the Mabutsane Sub-District District will continue to be engaged even in future, disadvantages local contractors; and if so, to state: and thus ensure that they are not disadvantaged.

(i) the number and value of tenders awarded for each I thank you Mr Speaker. year from 2015 to 2018; MR NTLHAILE: Supplementary. Thank you Minister (ii) who was eligible to tender in each case; for that elaborate answer. What measure have you set for yourself with regards to the number of youth you (iii) the criteria used to award tenders; are going to empower with tenders this financial year (iv) the names of contractors awarded tenders for each to ensure that a certain percentage benefits them instead year per village; of subjecting them to sheer luck if they win a tender because there is no arrangement to see to it that they (v) the names of local contractors who benefitted get them? from such tenders; and

(vi) what plans are in place to ensure that local Secondly, what plans have you put in place to ensure contractors are not disadvantaged in future. that no contractors from outside come and overpower local ones? ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT MS TSHIRELETSO: Councils in general are (MS TSHIRELETSO): Thank you Madam Speaker. responsible for the youth tenders, I cannot provide you with the one for RADP only because they fall under (i) Madam Speaker, my ministry has constructed sub-district and district councils. I do not have the 1969 houses countrywide under Rural Area percentage for RADP only but our councils have 30 per Development Programme (RADP) effective cent reserved for youth. So, I do not know when they 2009/10 financial year to date. In respect of engage them. Mabutsane Sub-District, my ministry has so far constructed 145 RADP houses since 2014/2015 to As to what we are doing to ensure that they do not date. The value of the tenders since 2015 ranged come outside, quickly, I will tell you that a contractor from P330, 000.00 – P660, 000.00 depending on was engaged was from Mabutsane to build at Ithokole , the different locations. I shall avail this information Kutuku and Kanaku, Betesankwe – a contractor from to the Honourable Member detailing contractors’ names, RADP houses constructed per village and Kanye, Mahotshwane – a contractor from Sekoma, contract sums. Kanaku – a contractor from Samane, Kutuku – a contractor from Kokong, Mahotshwane – a contractor (ii) Those who were eligible to tender are locally from Kanye and so on. All these I have just mentioned, based Grade OC Public Procurement and Asset the contractors in question, no one is from outside Disposal Board (PPADB) registered companies. because Betesankwe falls under Kanye Administration (iii) The sub-district floated advertisements inviting Authority, and then the rest falls under their areas. small local contractors and artisans with relevant Thank you Mr Speaker. certificates, skill, experience and references to DELAYED PROJECT IMPLEMENTATION FOR tender. The submitted bids were then evaluated as AWARDED TENDERS prescribed in the Local Authorities Procurement and Assets Disposal Act. MR H. B. BILLY (FRANCISTOWN EAST): asked (iv) As I have already indicated, I shall provide a list the Minister of Finance and Economic Development to of all the contractors awarded tenders per village state: to the Honourable Member. (i) the extent to which project implementation (v) Out of the 23 contractors that were engaged, 13 is delayed for awarded tenders that are being are local contractors from Mabutsane Sub-District protested by bidders; who benefited from the tenders. I shall provide the Honourable Member with the names of these 13 (ii) the total value of tenders affected over: 2016/2017, local contractors from Mabutsane Sub-District. 2017/2018, and 2018/2019 Financial Years;

2 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

(iii) sectors mainly affected; and, (iv) Finally, Mr Speaker, I have attached to my answer an annex that shows the projects that were (iv) what the ministry is doing to address this challenge, affected by this protest in the three years that have and provide as an annexure those affected tenders. been indicated by the Honourable Member of MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC Parliament. I thank you very much Mr Speaker. DEVELOPMENT (MR MATAMBO): Thank you Mr Speaker, the question is in four parts, my answer will SUPPLYING EACH PRIMARY SCHOOL WITH follow the same sequence. ONE PERSONAL COMPUTER

(i) Mr Speaker, the extent to which project MR E. J. BATSHU (NKANGE): asked the Minister implementation is delayed for awarded tenders that of Local Government and Rural Development to state are being protested by bidders varies depending whether he would as a matter of urgency supply each on the nature of the protest on the one hand and primary school with one personal computer for daily use on how long it takes to deal with the protests. On in the administration of schools. average, the awarded tenders that are escalated to ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL the Public Procurement and Asset Disposal Board GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT (PPADB) Board on appeal as provided for under (MS TSHIRELETSO): Thank you Mr Speaker. the PPADB Act were delayed by four months, and those referred to the Courts were delayed by an Mr Speaker, there are primary schools which have no average of one year six months. Mr Speaker, the computers while others have one or more than one timeframe that I am indicating here do not include computer. Out of the 755 primary schools, 699 have challenges by bidders that were handled by the computers while 56 schools have none. 316 primary Ministerial Tender Committees (MTC) as this can schools have also received tablets through school be better responded to by the respective Ministers. connectivity project. Other schools have received (ii) Mr Speaker, the total value of tenders affected over donations from companies through Adopt-A-School the three-year period, 2016/17, 17/18 and 18/19 is project which is monitored by Ministry of Basic P1,735, 045, 203.33. Education.

(iii) Mr Speaker, the sectors mainly affected over the Mr Speaker, it is the responsibility of my ministry to three-year period, the years that I have already ensure that primary schools are equipped with computers. mentioned were; Therefore, I will encourage all Local Authorities, funds • works or construction projects - 11, permitting, to budget for at least one computer and a printer for daily administration during the financial year • supplies projects - four, 2020/21. I thank you.

• services projects - five MR BATSHU: Supplementary. Thank you Minister. • total - 20. Can you give us a timeline as to when you will ensure that no school is subjected to the embarrassment that (iv) Mr Speaker, the following interventions are being we are noting currently where they are still writing on undertaken by PPADB in order to reduce delays in papers and assist them with atleast one computer and project implementation; printer as you have mentioned?

(a) By providing advice and guidance to the procuring MS TSHIRELETSO: At the end of my answer I said, entities and committees of the Board. if I may quote Mr Speaker, “therefore I will encourage (b) A second review of procurement processes and all Local Authorities, funds permitting, to budget for at procedures, including the review of the PPADB least one computer and a printer for daily administration Act itself and that is ongoing right now. during the financial year 2021.” I thank you.

(c) Providing guidance in terms of training, MR BATSHU: Further Supplementary. I was handholding of the committees of the Board, that saying you should confirm since I have challenges is, the Ministerial Tender Committees (MTC) and at the constituency as to when you will attend to my District Administrative Committees. constituency.

Hansard No 193 3 Monday 25th March 2019 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MS TSHIRELETSO: I have mentioned that we will of the youth countrywide. Our main aim is to know the try to engage council and in some instances talk to number of those who want to venture into business and the teachers to ask business people who can adopt a those that are waiting for job opportunities; it can either school because that can also help quickly. I believe that be under education or many others. something will be done even before the stipulated time Mr Speaker. With those reasons Mr Speaker I cannot confirm whether the funds that we need for Youth Development Fund NUMBER OF DROP-OUTS IN ALL PRIMARY (YDF) will amount to P1 billion. As it was stated in the AND SECONDARY SCHOOLS IN GHANZI budget proposal, this year we are planning to review NORTH CONSTITUENCY the YDF considering all the reasons that I have already mentioned. MR N. S. L. M. SALAKAE (GHANZI NORTH): asked the Minister of Basic Education to state the number Mr Speaker, the second part of the question was asking of drop-outs in all the seven primary schools and two us about our plans on job creation. The YDF is one of secondary schools in Ghanzi North Constituency for the our efforts to engage the youth who are interested in year 2017 and what the Ministry is doing to address the venturing into business opportunities. Ontop of that situation. Mr Speaker, it is not the responsibility of our ministry only to create employment for the youth and this is Later Date. why we have programmes such as Affirmation Action INADEQUATE BUDGET FOR YOUTH Programmes for youth. The other day Honourable PROJECTS Billy asked a question here and I mentioned them; for example; 15per cent of the budget of maintenance and MR M. I. MOSWAANE (FRANCISTOWN WEST): construction and 20 per cent of micro procurement that asked the Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and are mainly for assisting the youth, women and people Culture Development: with disabilities.

(i) if he is aware that the P120 million budget for Mr Speaker, ontop of that we do have officers in youth projects is inadequate to fund projects for different ministries responsible for creating employment unemployed youth and whether he will consider by identifying opportunities for young people. So this increasing the amount to P1 billion; and responsibility is not only for my Ministry but also for other ministries using the Principal Youth Officers. (ii) how the ministry will create jobs as there are no I trust that if we have to follow the plan of different jobs in the public service. ministries, also the Affirmative Action for young people, after the research we will be able to know the number of ASSISTANT MINISTER OF YOUTH youth who want to venture into businesses and that of EMPOWERMENT, SPORT AND CULTURE those who want to be re-oriented back to the education DEVELOPMENT (MR MAKGALEMELE): Good system. We will be able to know the way forward. afternoon Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, it is true that we MR SPEAKER (MR MOLATLHEGI): Conclude assist the youth every year with a budget of P120 million. Honourable Member. Mr Speaker, every year we have 2000 youths who apply to be assisted financially from Youth Development Fund MR MAKGALEMELE: Mr Speaker, that is how, I (YDF), but we are only able to assist 50 per cent of the think we could go about the issue of unemployment. I applicants. Now looking at the 2000 applicants, and thank you. considering that we only manage to assist 50 per cent HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Supplementary. only, it is indeed true that these funds are not enough Mr Speaker. MR SPEAKER: After that very long response, is there anything that you need clarification on? Honourable Even if that is the case Mr Speaker, we want this House Kablay, supplementary. to know that it is not every youth who wants to venture into businesses. This is why when I was presenting my MR KABLAY: Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable budget proposal the other day I mentioned that one of Member, in the past when we wanted to increase the our plans is to go and carry out a research on the interests budget for this Ministry, we would use the alcohol levy.

4 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

I therefore want to know why the Minister cannot ask (ii) why the Government still does survey work which for that Alcohol levy because at this present moment we the private sector has the capacity to do; and do not know what we are going to say to the youth. We hear what you are saying but it is really tough out there (iii) who is responsible for the policy formulation and Sir. quality assurance when the Government competes with the private sector in practical survey work. MR MAKGALEMELE: I cannot confirm that we shall source funds from the alcohol levy, but like I ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LAND have already mentioned, we still have to assess the MANAGEMENT, WATER AND SANITATION programme first. Secondly, we will have to know the SERVICES (MR MOIPISI): Mr Speaker, the issuance number of youth who want to venture into businesses. In of the secure land title certificates is expected to addition to that Mr Speaker just like other Batswana, the commence by July 2019. youth are free to access all the Government programmes Surveyors in the ministry have always been part of the that can assist people to go into business. Government establishment to deliver the Surveying and Mapping mandate. Currently, the Government has the MR MOLEBATSI: Further supplementary. capacity to do survey work internally. However, where MR SPEAKER: The last one Honourable Molebatsi. necessary, the ministry outsources some of its services to the private sector on the need basis. This is normally MR MOLEBATSI: I thank you Honourable Minister. done if the internal capacity within the ministry is Are you saying you are not responsible for creating inadequate to deliver the tasks with the required employment for the youth? That is worrying because timelines. the expectation is that you have to motivate them in all the ministries, either by providing employment or The ministry, together with relevant stakeholders through training, skilling them in any way you can. It including; Land Surveyors Council, Department of is really sad that you are divorcing yourself from that Surveys and Mapping, and the Botswana Institute of responsibility. Geomatics formulates appropriate policies as required by the profession. Quality control/Assurance is carried MR SPEAKER: Honourable Molebatsi, what do you out by the examination unit within the Department of mean by ‘ go skilla’? Surveys and Mapping. The Unit is mandated to ensure compliance with the Land Survey Act and Regulations MR MOLEBATSI: Training them and instilling skills as amended. This is applied to both the private and on them. Government surveyors. The Government is in no way MR MAKGALEMELE: Mr Speaker, I never competing with the private sector, but it is carrying out said it is not the responsibility of my ministry to its business as per the existing statutes. create employment for the youth, however I said the I thank you Mr Speaker. responsibility is not for us only. We therefore encourage the youth to go into areas which are being presented by GOVERNMENT SPONSORSHIP FOR the opportunities within the economy. I further stated that STATELESS PERSONS AND REFUGEES we do have officers who are supervised by the Principal Youth Officers and their responsibilities is to identify MR M. REATILE (SPECIALLY ELECTED): asked opportunities in those ministries that could help them to the Minister of Defence, Justice and Security to state: go into business and other economic opportunities. (i) how many stateless persons and refugees qualified PLOT CERTIFICATES UNDER THE NATIONAL for university and tertiary education after LAND REGISTRATION PROJECT completing the Botswana General Certificate in Secondary Education (BGCSE) in the last ten (10) MR N. S. L. M. SALAKAE (GHANZI NORTH): years given that the Convention relating to the asked the Minister of Land Management, Water and Status of Stateless Persons of 1954, Article 22(i) Sanitation Services: read with Convention of 1951 which states that (i) when Batswana can expect to receive plot they have an equal right to elementary education certificates under the National Land Registration and subsection 2 of the same Article 22(ii) that Project to be used as collateral as it has always affords them the right to education other than been propagated by the Government; elementary education;

Hansard No 193 5 Monday 25th March 2019 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

(ii) how many of them have received Government HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… sponsorship for tertiary education in the last 10 years; and if none, why. MR KGATHI: Okay. Then in that case, I think the appropriate Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND Science and Technology is better placed, if you can SECURITY (MR KGATHI): Mr Speaker, my mandate direct the question to him because I may end up mixing relates to the refugees not stateless persons. In the past up policy in his ministry. ten (10) years, one hundred and twenty-one (121) HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further supplementary. refugee children qualified for tertiary education. Thirty- four (34) of them managed to proceed to tertiary schools MR SPEAKER: Last one Honourable Molebatsi. while eighty-seven (87) did not get sponsorship to go to tertiary schools. On the 34 students who went to tertiary, MR MOLEBATSI: Further supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. Are foreigners… twenty-five (25) were sponsored by the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) while nine HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… (9) were self-sponsored. MR MOLEBATSI: … and refugees the same according There are no refugees who received the Government to you, Minister? sponsorship for tertiary education as the Government HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… does not provide education sponsorship for foreigners. Mr Speaker, basic elementary education is from pre- MR KGATHI: I do not understand the question, do the primary to primary level; that is Standard 7 and the foreigners and refugees… refugees in Botswana are accorded elementary education through the primary schools situated in Dukwi Refugee HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Ask him to explain to Camp. They are fully sponsored for basic education; you. Form 5 and the Government provides refugees with MR KGATHI: … what you mean. Please clarify so that education beyond the elementary level provided for, I can understand and answer accordingly Mr Speaker. in the 1951 United Nations Convention relating to the status of refugees. MR SPEAKER: I heard him earlier say foreigners and refugees. The object of Article 22.2 of the Convention is that the refugees must be given the same treatment as other MR KGATHI: Are you correcting him? foreigners, and that the contracting States must have MR SPEAKER: I heard him asking earlier; foreigners recognised the school certificates they possess at the and refugees. time they are granted refugee status. In Botswana, the refugees are not denied access to education beyond MR KGATHI: No, they are not the same in that case. elementary level and the school certificates they bring HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further supplementary. with them at the time they seek asylum are recognised, subject to the evaluation by the competent qualifications MR SPEAKER: I said that was the last one, now you authority. are coming again. Leave it you will ask him outside.

I thank you Mr Speaker. LABOUR INSPECTION AT MENDEL WELDING AND ENGINEERING MR NKAIGWA: Supplementary. Thank you Mr MR H. G. NKAIGWA (GABORONE NORTH): Speaker. I would like to understand this Minister, if asked the Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity Government was to take a position to say we will and Skills Development to state: support these young people until they attain their tertiary education, do you not think that this will be of benefit to (i) when the last labour inspection was done at the country rather than to have them do Form Five and Mendel Welding and Engineering; pass and not have sponsorship for tertiary education? (ii) if he is aware that employees are working under MR KGATHI: I do not know what you mean when you compromised health and safety conditions; and say Government takes ‘position,’ do you mean to say, ‘if if so, what is being done to protect the lives of Government can help?’ employees;

6 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

(iii) what is being done to protect employees from (iii) I am not aware of any verbal abuse endured by the verbal abuse they continue to endure from employees from the Managing Director of the the Managing Director as reported to the District company. The Acting Commissioner of Labour Labour Office; and has confirmed that the Labour Office does not have a report relating to verbal abuse of employees (iv) what is being done to protect the health and safety by the Managing Director. Furthermore, the issue of some employees who had their mouths affected was not raised during the recent labour inspection after using galvanized material without proper conducted at the company. care and safety precautions. (iv) Mr Speaker, working on galvanized material can MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR affect workers health. Due to inadequate protective PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT equipment, some employees who were affected by (MR MABEO): Thank you very much Mr Speaker and fumes and gases from galvanized material were good afternoon! taken for medical examinations, after which they Mr Speaker, were issued with certificates of fitness which indicated that their health was not affected. (i) the last labour inspection at Mendel Welding & However, the employer was advised to carry out Engineering (Pty) Ltd was conducted on 11th and periodic medical examination on employees. 12th November 2018. Furthermore, management was instructed to provide appropriate personal protective equipment In addition, factory inspection was carried out on 7th according to the nature of work. They were also November 2018, and a follow up inspection on 26th instructed to adhere to the health and safety February 2019. regulations. I thank you Mr Speaker. (ii) During the factory inspection, the following gaps where identified:- MR NKAIGWA: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you Minister. Minister, why does your (a) Personal protective clothing was not appropriate Ministry only do inspections after we have brought or in line with the processes of welding and questions to Parliament? Do you not realise that the lives fabrication, cutting, painting, assembling or of Batswana and employees are in danger, from all the installation of ferrous and non-ferrous metal; findings that you got after you heard what I said about Mendel Engineering? (b) The kitchen was next to the toilet compromising the health of the workers, but I must indicate that MR MABEO: Thank you very much Mr Speaker. Let the employer when we revisited the factory, he me indicate that I must admit that we are very thin on was relocating the kitchen; the ground, our numbers of inspectors are very low as compared to the industry out there. Therefore, sometimes (c) Poor housekeeping which led to metal cuts was we are slow to go to the industry. However, there are not kept safely; cases that we do observe with our regular inspections of (d) Electrical cables criss-crossing the floor; and other industries. I thank you Mr Speaker.

(e) Some of the electrical cables were damaged, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. posing the risk of electrocution. MR SPEAKER: Last one. We do not have time. The employer was advised to provide flames resistance MR SEGOKGO: Supplementary. Thank you Mr overalls, and to replace them when necessary. The Speaker. Minister, the periodic health inspections that employer has provided bins for safe keeping of metal are conducted are don after how long and who sets this cuts. With regard to damaged electrical cables, the timeframe? Is it you or the company owners? factory inspectors confiscated them for disposal. Furthermore, the employer was advised to attend to a MR MABEO: Mr Speaker, we have our own schedule situation where cables were criss-crossing the floor. The that we come up with at the ministry. However, whenever Acting Director of Occupational Health and Safety will there are cases brought up by Honourable Members like make a follow up on this issue by 5th April 2019. this, we hasten to address them. I thank you Mr Speaker.

Hansard No 193 7 Monday 25th March 2019 STATEMENT TO PARLIAMENT ON THE IMPLICATIONS OF BREXIT ON THE REPUBLIC OF BOTSWANA

APPOINTMENT OF JUDGES DURING THE without an alternative trade arrangement with UK, trade LAST TEN YEARS of SACU plus Mozambique and the UK will be disrupted as the current concessional trade terms under the EU- DR P. BUTALE (GABORONE CENTRAL): asked SADC EPA will no longer be applicable to trade between the Minister of Defence, Justice and Security to state UK as well as SACU and Mozambique. Consequently, the number of: SACU and Mozambique decided to negotiate a Trade (i) new Judges appointed during the last 10 years; and Agreement with the UK to avoid disruption to trade, in anticipation of Brexit on 29th March 2019. (ii) those appointed from within and outside of the With the advent of Brexit, there will be once again Administration of Justice respectively. no legal basis for trading with UK, necessitating an Agreement to be concluded between the UK, SACU and MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND Mozambique if the terms of trade under the EU-SADC SECURITY (MR KGATHI): Thank you. Mr Speaker, EPA are to be maintained and to avoid disruption. This 26 new Judges were appointed to the High Court bench roll over of the EPA has been agreed back in July of 2017 during the last 10 years. Six of these Judges appointed and the negotiations were started and have been ongoing during the above period were from the Administration with the singular purpose of avoiding trade disruptions of Justice while 20 were appointed from outside the by making the necessary technical amendments to the Administration of Justice. Agreement with UK operable. DR P. BUTALE: Supplementary. Thank you Mr The negotiations for this alternative Trade Agreement Speaker. Thank you Minister for that answer. What were initiated, like I said in July 2017 and were premised occasions this fast desperation number, does it mean that on the overarching principle of rolling-over EPA to the you are completely disregarding experienced people within the Administration of Justice in search for people extent possible, in order once again to avoid cliff- outside, or is it because there is lack of requisite skills edge. However, in this regard we went ahead to sign and expertise within the Administration of Justice? a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) in August 2018 to show commitment to the negotiations and the MR KGATHI: I think you are oversimplifying the continuity of our trade. whole thing because right from the basis, those who are shortlisted, there is a pre requisite experience level that Mr Speaker, it is important that we feel this negotiation is set. The assumption is that almost everyone on the because the agreement will afford all Botswana exports, shortlist has met the preliminary requirements, then the except for arms and ammunition, duty-free and quota- rest of the detail in terms of the qualifications needed free access into the UK in return for zero or reduced for one to become a Judge, will proceed to the Judicial tariff duties for agreed imports. Service Commission (JSC) for consideration. THE UPDATE MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Members. To date, I can safely state that approximately 95 per Order! Order Honourable Members! cent of the text has been agreed and stabilised. There has been some legal scribing to this text. However, the STATEMENT TO PARLIAMENT ON THE IMPLICATIONS OF BREXIT ON Agreement could not be concluded in our last meeting THE REPUBLIC OF BOTSWANA after several Joint Senior Trade Officials Meeting due to fundamental policy differences on cumulation of MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, TRADE AND EU materials and processing and on the transition for INDUSTRY (MS KENEWENDO): Mr Speaker, as Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures (SPS), and these from 10th October 2016, Botswana, together with her discussions were subsequently elevated to the Ministers Southern African Customs Union (SACU) colleagues and level for guidance. Consequently, the relevant SACU, Mozambique, have been trading with the United Mozambique and UK Ministers engaged on a telephone Kingdom (UK) under the European Union-SADC conference in March 2019 with a view to unlocking Economic Partnership Agreement (EU-SADC EPA). the impasse on the UK-SACU and Mozambique However, following the UK’s decision to exit the Economic Partnership Agreement (UK-SACUM EU commonly referred to as Brexit, it came to light that EPA) negotiations. Unfortunately, the Ministerial

8 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 STATEMENT TO PARLIAMENT ON THE IMPLICATIONS OF BREXIT ON THE REPUBLIC OF BOTSWANA

engagement could not make headway as the two Parties In lieu of the above stated divergences, the Parties had no meeting of minds on the issues of cumulation have agreed to continue to engage with a view to and sanitary and phytosanitary standards provisions. find an amicable solution that takes into account the However, continuous dialogue will continue with the interests of both Parties, promotes mutually beneficial view to finding common ground. trade, including regional integration in SACU and Mozambique as was originally intended with the EPA. With regard to cumulation, in order to benefit from the preferential tariff rates offered by the trade agreement, Quickly Mr Speaker, to state what is at stake for a UK exporter must prove that the product meets the Botswana; our findings show that Botswana’s major Rules of Origin in the agreement and as such the product exports to UK are diamonds contributing 50 per cent is actually from or has had sufficient work having been of the exports in 2017 and 2018; beef at 40.4 per cent done in the UK. This applies in the same manner to and the next top three they range somewhere between SACU and Mozambique products going the other way. P38 million to P1 million. In the same period Botswana These rules of origin exist to ensure that the benefit of exported 157 product lines to the UK. preferential access in terms of a free trade agreement goes to the intended country party to the agreement, and On the other hand, imports to Botswana are fairly not to non-Parties. diversified, with over 1 939 product lines being imported from UK. Opportunity for further diversification SACU plus Mozambique re-emphasised that as per the initial understanding and agreed terms of reference, the remains with total 7 910 lines that the UK can export parties are to roll-over the EPA and not to renegotiate to Botswana. the terms of the EPA and in that regard the EPA does not We are concerned Mr Speaker; I should state that the provide for full cumulation with EU material, especially in cases where the EU material is subject to a higher request for UK for unrestricted cumulation of 1 126 duty when exported to SACU and Mozambique, than lines would ideally attract duty when imported into when the material is exported from the UK. SACU and Botswana. Products using these inputs would ideally be Mozambique are unable to give any better treatment to subject to tariff duties from UK, but should we give full the UK than the EU as this will open the block up to new cumulation, then there will be no tariffs duties and we issues with the EU. risk Mr Speaker an influx.

On SPS matters, and these are particularly important to On the whole, if an Agreement is not reached with UK Botswana, SPS on the other hand refers to standards that upon Brexit, exports from Botswana to the UK will are contained in rules and protocols for plant and animal be subjected to trade under terms extended to other products aimed at preserving health and bio-security. World Trade Organization (WTO) members, opening One of the main arguments for Brexit is the need to Botswana to stiffer competition from more competitive strengthen the UK’s sovereignty for it to be able to make members and WTO terms will affect only 5 of 157 its own rules. That said, there is a transitionary period product lines being exported to the UK and one tariff where EU legislation that was operative before UK exits line in particular interest to Botswana is beef which the EU will form part of their domestic law and SPS contributed around 13.25 per cent exports to UK in measures and legislation is one of the main interests 2017 and 2018 respectively, will face very high day one given that they have a direct impact on our agricultural tariffs. exports. Mr Speaker, SACU plus Mozambique and UK’s differences have been narrowed down in particular I would like to conclude by saying Mr Speaker, that to SPS down to timeframes for continued recognition while we have been working on a timeline of March 29th, of SPS import requirements to ensure that there is there has been progress in the United Kingdom (UK), time provision for compliance adjustments and that they have gone through Parliament and have rejected compliance to new UK rules will not be costlier than the deal that the Prime Minister Theresa May took to compliance to EU rules. Parliament and subsequently have approved or have Mr Speaker, it is of paramount importance to Botswana voted for the extension of Article 50 which determines as an exporter of agricultural products, beef to be the withdrawal of the UK. What we are looking at, at specific, to have certainty of what the applicable rules this particular moment is what the European Union are post Brexit and these are some of the issues that we (EU) says, they have given an extension until 22nd May have been seeking clarity on before we can conclude 2019, but the European Council agrees to an extension and sign the agreement until 12th April 2019 and expects the United Kingdom to

Hansard No 193 9 Monday 25th March 2019 STATEMENT TO PARLIAMENT ON THE IMPLICATIONS OF BREXIT ON THE REPUBLIC OF BOTSWANA

indicate a way forward before this date for consideration. On the second one, I would like to clarify there that the What this essentially means to us is that it has bought us EPA will continue. Our trade with the EU will not be more time Mr Speaker to negotiate with the UK and to affected by this new agreement, what we are however, conclude our agreement by the 11th of April, 2019. keeping an eye on, is should they not agree, then how do we deal with EU products that accumulated with UK I want to conclude once again Mr Speaker, saying that products. So we are keeping an eye on that including Botswana as a member state and as a coordinator and how we deal with SACU + Mozambique products that co-chair of these negotiations, remains very committed accumulated with EU products going into the UK. So to these negotiations and to reaching an agreement those are the issues that we are keeping an eye on and that takes into account the interests of both parties we have left an open door to re-negotiate with the EU that ensures no trade disruption between the parties should there be a hard BREXIT. I thank you Mr Speaker. and promotes mutually beneficial trade, including encouraging regional integration of Southern African MR GAOLATHE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you Customs Union (SACU) and Mozambique. I thank you Honourable Minister of Trade. I just thought I should Mr Speaker. indicate that I have had the privilege of interacting with your team during our Public Accounts Committee (PAC) MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Minister. and I am pleased with their work and their progress. I Honourable Members, I will now allow short questions thought I should commend your ministry for the work and elucidations. that you are doing. There are one or two questions that DR P. BUTALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you I would like clarity on in terms of how much progress Minister. Let us also take the opportunity to applaud you is being made. The first is SACU itself, that there had for the efforts you are making to ensure that the interests been an impasse and I would like to know whether there of our country are protected. I just wanted to get a feel is still that impasse around the agreement on the revenue of the situation starting from SACU and Mozambique. sharing formula, how long that impasse has been going I know that in the past when we had the Economic on and for how long do you think it will continue in that Partnership Agreement (EPA) negotiations, the division space? started from within us, emanating from the fact that South Africa was viewed differently by the EU, because The second is, as I do understand that the regional they felt they are more industrialised and therefore they agreement with EU, EU had some sort of provision were not ready to give them the same concessions they of a fund to assist SACU countries to find or devise were ready to give to other SACU members; is that a ways to raise revenues and to prove competitiveness in point of contention or that is not the case now? That is some of those sectors. I would like to know in terms the first point. of this envisaged agreement with the UK whether there The other point I wanted to ask you is that have you is talk around some sort of fund by the UK for the made a proposition to the UK to allow SACU and same, which is assisting ways to improve revenue and Mozambique to carve their own path in terms of future competitiveness? relations of agreements with the EU because they are exiting, so that we are not stuck to them or in the sense The last one is I do know that Scotland has been very that if they take a hard BREXIT, we are going to have to unhappy and agitating around what the UK is doing and fall onto the hard BREXIT? has been threatening to insist on another referendum which might land them back to the EU. I would like MS KENEWENDO: Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank to know from your point of view whether Scotland is a you Honourable Member. On the first point I can country that you are monitoring and whether it is worth happily state that we have been a united block in these monitoring in the first place. negotiations. There are some bilateral issues that South Africa has to deal with and they have been removed MS KENEWENDO: Thank you Mr Speaker. I would from the core issues that we are dealing with. It is for like to start off by thanking the Honourable Member for issues including how they deal with wine and whisky recognising the work that my team is doing and also and where they have the intra-industry issues, but other thank them in addition because they have really been than that our position has been very clear, we have been hard at work in relation to these negotiations and others. quite united even in how we deal with the negotiations On the SACU impasse Mr Speaker, especially on when we are called upon individually. revenue sharing formula, I would like to politely decline

10 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 STATEMENT TO PARLIAMENT ON THE IMPLICATIONS OF BREXIT ON THE REPUBLIC OF BOTSWANA

to speak on it because that is an area that is specifically union. We have rules and regulations that we use to for Ministry of Finance and Economic Development, but protect our businesses and economy so that they are not I can state that we have been engaging, our discussions mishandled. This dumping; there is a WTO measure have been very vibrant and there are a few areas of which allows us to use our laws to stop dumping, but progress. you have to prove that it is dumping. I believe what you are talking about is having an influx and of flooding of On the EU: for the EPA they had the European products. We have several things that we can use in infant Development Fund (EDF) which assisted on industry protection and so forth. Policies are at hand, competitiveness and with the UK there is talk around but in our negotiation we ensure first that our interest capacity building, competitiveness and also developing are met, and then we protect our economies so that we the value chains, ensuring that the products that are confirm that what we are doing will benefit us and will eventually exported to the UK have some value added to benefit our trade partner. So, that is where I concluded a level of above 40 per cent. Those are still preliminary Mr Speaker, when I reached my conclusion saying, we talks and we will see how it goes on the agenda that gets as Botswana and as chair of these negotiations, we are stated in the trade agreement. Any political movement, determined to reaching an agreement that takes into including a referendum is worth watching. It is worth account the interest of both parties that ensures no trade watching because it would have implications once again disruption between the parties and promotes mutually on how we trade with the UK, the amount of trade that beneficial trade. We emphasize that issue there. Thank we have with the UK as a whole and with Scotland as you Mr Speaker. an individual. So any movements in that area really are worth noting as well as any issues, dealing with the HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… United States of America (US) or China and so forth are worth noting. We are looking at them Honourable MR SPEAKER: Oh! Honourable Seretse you failed to Member, I can confirm that. Thank you Mr Speaker. control yourself. I ask that you be the last one. Time is not on our side. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Ntlhaile, I request you to be the last one. MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR SERETSE): MR NTLHAILE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I thank the Thank you Speaker. We should thank the Minister for Minister for giving us an update on the events in England bringing this issue to Parliament. Most of us see it on regarding her intention to separate from other countries. television and it seems as if it does not concern us, you have brought it closer to us so that we see that these Minister as we take steps to have trade relations with issues affect us. Like she said, the whites started well Britain and the European Union(EU), are we looking at with us that the agreement that was made with EU, will this differently, such that going forward, we do not find be put on the other side and we continue without any Botswana being a dumping ground for goods from these obstacle. We are now surprised that when their problems countries? This is because these countries have a huge mount, they want to create problems for us. We say... market and they want us to rely on them as opposed to looking inward country and region wise. Are we looking HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Inaudible)… at the fact that, the agreements that we are trying to have MR SERETSE: …no, to encourage... do not put us at a disadvantage, will they be looking at the fact that we do not become a dumping ground. Those HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… countries continue to dump their goods, thus collapsing MR SERETSE: …Okay, we encourage you to stand our companies that are trying to give us goods? Yes sir, firm in those two issues you are looking at, they are very thank you. important. I believe that like Honourable Butale has MS KENEWENDO: Thank you Mr Speaker. I have said, when it comes to these issues we differ, I am happy we are one today. When you have managed we will hear already explained that, that is one of the reasons why on the radio that you have succeeded. I thank you very we are not agreeing. If we look at accumulation, we much. have to have specific product line that we have agreed on that they are duty free, quarto free, so it does not MS KENEWENDO: Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank become come all. On top of that, as the Southern African you Honourable Member. We will continue working Customs Union (SACU) we have our own customs hard. I think it was important for us to just keep you

Hansard No 193 11 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

updated especially given that the original exit date was Development. The question for consideration this March 29th so that we as leaders are able to explain to afternoon is that the Sum of Seven Hundred and Forty- others what is Botswana’s position, how things are going Five Million, Three Hundred and Fifty-Seven Thousand, and when we conclude we will see if it is necessary to Eight Hundred and Thirty Pula (P745, 357,830) for once again give an update. We wanted you not to be in Organization number 2600 in the schedule stand part the dark. Thank you Honourable Member that you are of the schedule, and the revised total estimated costs with us and supporting us in this delicate issue. Thank for sub organization and organization number 2600 in you. the Development Fund Estimates stand part of those estimates. Order! Honourable Members, when the House HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… adjourned last week Thursday, Honourable Mabeo was MR SPEAKER: Honourable Tshireletso, oh! on the floor presenting his budget proposals. He still has 14 minutes, 35 seconds, please conclude and move. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR (MS TSHIRELETSO): No, it is the last one. I wanted PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT to ask him who the leadership is in this programme of (MR MABEO): Thank you very much Mr Chairperson. Southern African Development Committee (SADC)? Mr Chairperson when the House adjourned last week Which country is the Chairperson, and for us to know Thursday, I was still talking about the issuance of work whether from their agreement they should take the permits, juts to indicate that; in relation to issuance of mandate from their Member of Parliament or not? I want work permits, a total of 8,550 long term applications to thank you Minister for briefing Parliament. were processed between April 2018 and January 2019. 81 per cent of these applications were approved. In MS KENEWENDO: Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker the same vein, a total 3,556 emergency applications as the representative for Botswana in these negotiations, were received including 141 carried forward from I am the Chairperson and Botswana is the Chair of the the previous year. 141 Exemption Certificates were negotiations. I get my mandate as the Chairperson from processed and approved which translates to 100 per the Ministers of SACU plus Mozambique. The processes cent. The average approval rate for Work Permits is 91 of how they get their mandates varies. Others get their mandate from Executive, others from Parliament. What per cent. The turnaround time is still a challenge and the remains is, we agreed as the negotiating block to inform ministry is working on improving its process efficiency our people on what is happening, what is holding up the by automating the process. To this end, the transition negotiations, what is the status and what would be the of processing of work permits from the Ministry of impact. Thank you Mr Speaker. Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs (MNIG) to the Ministry of Employment, Labour Productivity ASSEMBLY IN COMMITTEE and Skills Development (MELSD) is progressing (CHAIRPERSON in the Chair) smoothly, and the Immigration Act is being reviewed to further expedite effectiveness of the two ministries in APPROPRIATION (2019/2020) BILL, 2019 (NO. 1 processing of work and residence permits. OF 2019) Mr Chairperson, on retrenchments, 30 companies …Silence… retrenched 399 employees from April 2018 to January ORGANISATION 2600-MINISTRY 2019. The most affected sector was the manufacturing OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR industry with a total of 212 employees retrenched. In PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS compliance with Section 25 of the Employment Act, DEVELOPMENT 132 companies submitted notifications of intention to retrench for various reasons. This might result in further (Resumed Debate) retrenchment of employees.

MR CHAIRPERSON (MR MOLATLHEGI): Order! Mr Chairperson, the process of amending labour laws is Honourable Members, we are back at the Committee progressing well. The laws considered for amendment of Supply, Organization number 2600, The Ministry are the Employment Act, Trade Disputes Act, Trade of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Unions and Employers’ Organisations Act and Public

12 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

Service Act. The rationale for their amendment is to; Mr Chairperson, in an effort to transform and increase address gaps in the Acts, facilitate doing business, access to vocational education, the ministry has reviewed incorporate the various decisions of the courts into the curricula with active participation of employers to the laws and to align the Acts with the International align it to Botswana National Qualifications Framework. Labour Standards that Botswana has ratified. A tripartite Institutions have been rationalised taking into account committee made up of representatives of Government, regional competitive advantage, availability of resources employers and workers was established to spearhead the as well as promotion of value chains. All institutions process, and substantive work is ongoing. are undergoing refurbishment. The ministry has also adopted Modularised Competency Based Training Mr Chairperson, my ministry in collaboration with for long term programmes. In addition, counselling employers, workers through ILO facilitation has at institution level and character building programme developed Decent Work Country Programme 2019- intended to ensure holistic development of students and 2023. The programme seeks to promote the pillars responsible citizens, have been introduced. of Employment Creation, Social Protection, Social Dialogue and Rights at work. The programme is at final Mr Chairperson, a total of 17,798 trainees have stages of completion. been enrolled in vocational training institutions for 28 programmes offered across 35 brigades and four Mr Chairperson, from April 2018 to January 2019, 991 technical colleges throughout the country, with 13,843 cases were registered for compensation for injuries being first year trainees and 3,955 continuing students. incurred and occupational diseases contacted in line of The latter have been enrolled in old programmes duty or for the death related to such injuries or diseases. that they had initially been pursuing. In terms of Settlement rate of these cases stands at 19.7 per cent, accreditation, my ministry is working around the depicting low settlement. This low performance is clock, with facilitation of the Botswana Qualifications mainly attributed to queries by Insurance Companies and employers seeking further assessment and opinion Authority (BQA). Concerted efforts have been made to from specialists, which takes time. My ministry intends ensure that institutions meet the basic requirements for to review the Compensation Act to deal with this accreditation. ambiguity. Mr Chairperson, the Construction Industry Trust Fund Benefits paid out to the 584 claims settled amounted (CITF) continues to provide responsive Competency to Fifteen Million, Four Hundred and Twenty-Four Based Modular Training (CBMT) to provide short Thousand, Nine Hundred and Thirty-Seven Pula Eighty- term training and recognition of prior learning. New Nine Thebe (P15,424,937.89). Out of this amount, programmes such as Hydraulics and Pneumatics, Government paid Four Million, Seven Hundred and Programmable Logic Control and Mechatronics were Sixty-Six Thousand, Four Hundred and Thirty-Five Pula introduced to meet the demands and challenges posed (P4,766,435) to settle 138 claims out of 886 registered by several sectors of the economy. cases and the remaining sectors have settled 446 claims Short term skills training programmes are offered out of a total of 2,075 at a cost of Ten Million, Six through our main Centre in Gaborone, Kazungula, Tsau, Hundred and Fifty-Eight Thousand, Five Hundred and Moreomaoto and Chadibe. Two Pula Eighty-Nine Thebe (P10,658,502.89). Mr Chairperson, the ministry has made strategic Mr Chairperson, the low settlement rate has been noted partnerships with the following institutions; German with concern as a challenge presented by the outdated Mechanical Engineering Industry Association (Verband Workers Compensation Act as it does not state the period Deutscher Maschinen- und Anlagenbau e.V, referred to to be taken to provide payments. However, my ministry as “VDMA”) and the Professional Training Solutions has completed consultation with relevant stakeholders GmbH to cooperate and promote skills development and permission to review the Act is being sought from through dual vocational training in the areas of Government. Programmable Logic Control (PLC), Hydraulics and The draft National Occupational Health and Safety Mechatronics; Debswana Jwaneng Mine to conduct Policy has been finalised and was deferred by Cabinet Recognition of Prior Learning (RPL) and on the for further consultation with Ministry of Health and job training during construction of their community Wellness. projects; Botswana Institute for Technology, Research

Hansard No 193 13 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

and Innovation (BITRI) in the construction of bio gas Department of Skills Development digesters in a United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) sponsored project to promote the use of cow I propose Five Hundred and Forty-Six Million, Seven dung (boloko) gas as an alternative energy source. Hundred and Fifty-Seven Thousand, Three Hundred and Forty Pula (P546, 757,340.00). In terms of improving productivity and work ethic, a comprehensive approach to effect a sustainable and Development Budget impactful improvement has been adopted. To this Mr Chairperson, I propose Eighty-Three Million Pula effect, the ministry has developed a draft Productivity (P83, 000,000.00). Improvement Blueprint to guide efforts for improvement and key among the proposals is the development of Mr Chairperson, in addition to that, a sum of Fifty Million National Productivity Improvement Strategy. Pula (P50, 000,000.00) is requested for establishment of rapid skills centres at Phitshane Molopo, Khakhea, Mr Chairperson, in an endeavor to facilitate the private Ncojane, Shakawe, Sojwe and Bokspits as well as sector to improve productivity, my ministry through maintenance of vocational facilities at Kang, Serowe, Botswana National Productivity Centre (BNPC), is Maun and Jwaneng including staff houses at Bobonong, collaborating with Botswana Investment Trade Centre Marobela and Matsheng brigades. (BITC) to assist Small Medium Enterprises (SMEs) with productivity improvement initiatives and processes. CONCLUSION

PROPOSED MINISTRY BUDGET FOR 2019/2020 In conclusion, Mr Chairperson, I request that the sum of FINANCIAL YEAR Seven Hundred and Forty-Five Million, Three Hundred and Fifty-Seven Thousand, Eight Hundred and Thirty Mr Chairperson, allow me to present budget proposals Pula (P745, 357,830.00) under the Recurrent Budget under my ministry for the financial year 2019/2020 for for Organisation 2600 be approved and stand part of the both Recurrent and Development expenditures. Schedule of Appropriation (2019/2020) Bill, 2019 (No. Recurrent Budget 1 of 2019); and that the sum of Eighty-Three Million Pula (P83, 000,000.00) for Organisation 2600 under the Mr Chairperson, I propose a budget allocation for Development Budget be approved and stand part of those 2019/2020 of Seven Hundred and Forty-Five Million, estimates for the financial year 2019/2020. I therefore Three Hundred and Fifty-Seven Thousand, Eight move accordingly. I thank you Mr Chairperson. Hundred and Thirty Pula (P745, 357,830.00) reflecting an increase of 10 per cent compared to 2018/2019 MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Honourable Mabeo. allocation. Order! Honourable Members, let me remind you that I will be calling the Minister to respond at 1635 hours Ministry Headquarters and the question will be put at 1705 hours. If most of Mr Chairperson, I propose the sum of One Hundred you want to debate, you can reduce your time to five and Thirty-Three Million, Fifty-Four Thousand, Six minutes. If you each debate for 10 minutes, only six Hundred and Seventy Pula (P133, 054,670.00) to be people will manage to debate for 10 minutes while the allocated to headquarters. seventh one will get only eight minutes. It is up to you.

Department of Labour and Social Security MR BATSHU (NKANGE): Thank you Mr Chairperson. Let me start off by indicating that Honourable Mabeo’s Mr Chairperson, for the Department of Labour and ministry is one of the important ministries in our country Social Security, I request Fifty-Two Million, Five especially looking at our economy. My concern … Hundred and Thirty-Seven Thousand, Five Hundred and Thirty Pula (P52, 537,530.00). MR MAELE: On a point of procedure Mr Chairperson. Okay, you have corrected sir, sorry. I wanted to say that Department of Occupational Health and Safety Honourable Batshu had agreed to five minutes.

I propose Thirteen Million, Eight Thousand, Two MR CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Honourable Maele. Hundred and Ninety Pula (P13, 008,290.00). Proceed Honourable Batshu.

14 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

MR BATSHU: My concern is that although this ministry a Government which takes itself seriously and desires has a number of responsibilities, the budget allocated is progress. That is why I am requesting that by NDP very low. What worries me all the more is that, there 11Mid-Term Review, Tutume Brigade should be funded is shortage of staff in this ministry. Evidence that there for refurbishment. New buildings should be constructed is shortage of staff is shown by projects which are not where students will be taught in, in these modern days. implemented despite the best intentions to implement. They should also be motivated with relevant equipment. It is rumoured that Construction Industry Trust Fund Let me commend this ministry for working with trade (CITF) is being transferred to Nkange Brigade. We hope unions last year. Our differences do not mean that we that it will be transferred to Nkange Brigade as soon as should not hold consultation meetings. I trust that we possible. will continue with the same spirit. The last point Mr Chairperson is on late payment of The other thing that I want to commend this ministry salaries, especially to private security companies. for, is its aim to transform vocational training centres. We expect that as this law will be amended, it will be Those are good intentions. The only problem is that strongly enforced. If it has not been given teeth yet, those intentions are not taking shape the way Batswana Botswana employees should be paid on time. Thank and even I wish them to happen. What I am saying is you. that, the new curricula up to now has not arrived. When you get to brigades, you will find that most of the time HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ah! ...(Inaudible)… the students are kept busy with boot camp instead of ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL learning. The problem is that the courses have not GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT been aligned properly and accreditation as the Minister (MS TSHIRELETSO): What is so surprising, do mentioned. My request to Government is to assist this you not think it is befitting that women should be ministry so that the arrangement to transform vocational given an opportunity too? Thank you my favourite and training centres and brigades may be done quickly so Honourable Chairperson. I support the Minister. I want that the students who might lose interest may start to appreciate the fact that work permits are done on time. regaining hope that their courses will commence soon. My point on the issue of work permits is that, when they Another point is about lecturers who used to teach in are released, there should be a thorough assessment brigades. Some come to our offices because there is concerning the different chefs on Indian, Chinese confusion of whether they will be employed or they and Portuguese cuisine, they should not be hired on have been fired. That requires an explanation. permanent basis. Their permit should be renewed every five years. They should teach our people so that they With the brief time I have, let me focus on Tutume too may know how to prepare this food, in future we Brigade. Tutume Brigade is one of the first brigades in will be able to reduce the number of chefs we import Botswana. Its workmanship was not up to par because to our country. I was hoping I could touch that one Mr the bricks were of low quality. Those buildings are Chairperson and ask that you react to it quickly so that damaged. That is why in the questions that I have been they can start training our people… asking the Minister, they were more or less to alert the Minister to look into Tutume brigade. It is desolate, the MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Markus, that door. buildings are impaired. I had asked that even if you can send your delegate, atleast find time to go and see that MS TSHIRELETSO: Mr Chairperson, our people situation first hand, it is bad. should not continue being waitresses forever and ever amen. you will find that they never specialize on The good thing is that we have undeveloped land at being chefs. The other point that I want to raise is my Tutume Brigade. I request that as we come for Mid- dissatisfaction about some people from certain countries Term Review of National Development Plan (NDP) 11, you should come up with a Motion which calls for who are not paying our people well even-though they refurbishment of Tutume Brigade soon and I will support work on Sundays. They work for the whole week, whole you. Those rundown buildings even those who built month but their salary is very low. We should also find them like Van Rensburg, if they could be resurrected, out their motive to come here, whether it is to come and they will be appalled at the situation. I believe that we are take advantage of our people or to create employment.

Hansard No 193 15 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

These workers are faced with challenges, there are no Lastly, we should speed up the idea of providing work toilets where they are working, also they are not allowed permits, residence permits and permanent residence to use cellphones or to communicate with anyone or to in one area. People should not go back and forth go near the till. I want us to look into such things. eventhough we have one government. I was just adding on that one because you will find that an individual will If we give out permits, we should consider whether the be applying for a work permit at Honourable Mabeo’s money that they are making is saved in our commercial ministry and there he will be sent to Honourable Ngaka banks because it seems like they save their money in Ngaka’s ministry. I would not take much time so that their pockets not at the banks. other members could use it. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

I would also talk about retrenchment. Nowadays we talk MR NKAIGWA (GABORONE NORTH): Thank you of manufacturing. In countries such as Mauritius, they Mr Chairperson. The Umbrella for Democratic Change do not have the mining sector but they are rich when (UDC) Government is advocating for a living wage it comes to the manufacturing sector. They employ a which will provide a decent standard of living for all lot of people through this sector. If we are not going to Batswana, which shall take into consideration … buy locally produced products, we are going to continue having high rate of unemployment. MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Kenewendo…

I was also advocating for the rights of the workers that MR NKAIGWA: …the cost of living. Many Batswana with the current minimum wage, it does not cater well they should be respected. The private sector does not for their needs. In my own area; in the Ledumang and want to change, according to them they are sticking to Block 8 area, the cheapest house for rental is around the minimum wage to pay the workers. P800 to P1500; a single room Honourable Kgathi. I talked about how dilapidated the brigades are. The Having a minimum wage as it is currently at, it does Madiba brigade has produced a lot of graduates who not cater for the cost of living for our people, hence in hold higher posts at their workplaces. Mr Chairperson agreement with the UDC Government that time has come for this country to realize that indeed there is a you know, you went to Madiba, the brigade was… need for a living wage for all Batswana; for all workers MR CHAIRPERSON: No, I do not know… in this country. P3000 will indeed cater for inflation pressures and for the groceries and rentals that you have HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… to endure on a monthly basis.

MS TSHIRELETSO: I will leave that one… Honourable Minister, time has come for us to review the Employment Act. We cannot have an Employment HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… Act that is being abusive to our own people, whereby workers are employed on one to three months’ contracts. HONOURABLE MEMBER: He was schooling in We can no longer have one-month contract; a person Zola. had to work for over 10 to 15 years on a one-month MS TSHIRELETSO: No, I know that he went to contract. Honourable Mokaila’s ministry, Civil Aviation Madiba Senior, and the Madiba brigade was just next Authority of Botswana (CAAB) in the Airport have door. There is nothing left there, everything is dilapidated been employing labourers who work at the Airport on and that really shows that nobody cares about these one month to six months contracts for the past 10 to 15 brigades. Just like Honourable Batshu was saying, the years, and this Government believes that it is normal government has divorced itself from them eventhough to do that because the Employment Act provides that they produced good results for us. The builders, welders indeed they can employ employees on those one month and others can be hired by Batswana. Nowadays there contracts… are a lot of buildings that are being constructed. I do have a project that I am doing and the contractor that HONOURABLE MEMBER: Correction. I have hired has employed about 13 people. So if MR NKAIGWA: No, there is nothing to correct, I am we are not going to give the brigades the chance and telling you, that is my constituency … concentrate on secondary and tertiary schools, we are not doing ourselves justice. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)…

16 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

MR NKAIGWA: Engagement of foreigners; we have issue licences. As for issues between the employer and seen foreigners being engaged where there are local the employee such as late payments, they fall under skills. I have seen even in retailers like Choppies to give the Ministry which has been presenting. I receive calls an example, whereby positions that locals are supposed from employees who are ill-treated by their employers to be engaged in, we have foreigners being engaged on every week. So Minister, I stand to tell you that I will those particular positions. I came to this Parliament to support you. After conducting inspections, give me the report to you also about Haskins and Sons PTY (Ltd) to names of private security companies that ill-treat their the effect that there is a guy at Haskins and Sons who employees, I will cancel the licences of such companies have been employed by Haskins and Sons for over 10 because we do not believe that our children should work years, and the only change has been the name of the in unfavourable conditions where they do not have position, but the guy has been doing the same work. I uniforms and lack equipment needed in their job. When told you that this guy who is still at Haskins; and as I they think that they will get their severance benefits, am speaking to you right now, he is still employed by they are dismissed from work. I am waiting Minister, so Haskins but he does not have a work permit. that I support you. We have many names, but we want to deal with this situation. There is a need to recognize all unions, Botswana Federation of Public Sector Union (BOFEPUSU) is Secondly Minister, I want to say, you have a hand in not recognized by the Employment Act. There is a need supporting the Ministry of Agriculture since you are to embrace all unions in the Employment Act, hence the Minister issuing permits. I urge you to look at the the need to review the Employment Act. There is also permits that allow farmers to hire foreigners who want a need Honourable Minister, to review the Trade and Disputes Act, with the ruling of the Court of Appeal, to work at the farms. When a country is developing; it is there is a need for you to rush it because employees are a development trend, there are jobs that local people do losing jobs as we speak, and they are being fired without not want to do, but let us allow those who do not mind notices. Those that are in probation, it is worse, they doing those jobs to come here. The payment for permits are just being fired by their employers because of the is high, reduce this amount so that we can be able to loophole in the Trade and Disputes Act. I have said even develop agriculture. before this House that there is a need for us to empower our District Labour Offices, let these labour offices be DR BUTALE: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. Thank District Labour Court so that they can be empowered you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I am confused by to handle matters. There is no need for the employees this issue of security companies` employees who are to be waiting for cases to go to the Industrial Courts ill-treated by their employers that we talk about every which you know very well that it takes longer for cases now and then in this House; the Minister responsible for to be heard by the Industrial Court. So, it is good for us licensing says he is waiting for the Minister whom these to decentralise cases and empower our District Labour securities fall under to come and seek help from him. Offices to become District Labour Courts. It is like these are Ministers from two different states. There is a lot of abuse by employers on the employees, What does this mean to the discussions that we engage and it takes time for you to act on those issues because in here in Parliament while they are both here listening there are no routine inspections on companies. You only to these concerns? do inspections on companies when we bring matters to this Parliament, hence the need for you to have a routine MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Member, why are schedule of inspection of companies. There is also you asking me because I am not on the floor? You could abuse Honourable Minister, by auditing companies in this country; young graduates, young accountants who have asked the Minister and sought correction. Let him graduate each and every year, they are being abused and debate, you will also have the chance to debate. Proceed paid peanuts by these auditing companies. So, there is a Honourable Kgathi. need for you to put an eye in these auditing companies. I thank you. MR KGATHI: Mr Chairperson, he is afraid because I am going to cancel his security company licence. He can MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND see that now Ministers are serious and they are going to SECURITY (MR KGATHI): Mr Chairperson, I want to deal with him; we are going to do that. I am not going talk about security guards or private security companies to discriminate whether it is a Butale licence or not. So, and their concerns. My ministry’s responsibility is to pay your employees.

Hansard No 193 17 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

I also would like to say, you can support agriculture by MR MAKGALEMELE: Most of the parents do not assessing the money paid. I want to thank you on the have money to send their children to where they have programme, ‘character building’. I have heard some been admitted like Gantsi and other places. I request Members of Parliament indicating that you are ill- that you address this point because it has brought sorrow treating the youth, but this is a powerful programme, to most parents in my constituency; they were happy just like boot camps. Work on that, and I can assure you that children have been admitted at brigades, but it is that the Ministry of Defence will stand by you because now difficult for children to go to school. We have tried there are a lot of values on ‘character building’ that the to request the social welfare department to go and assess youth learn from soldiers. What they are saying is just to them to decide if they can be assisted or not. However, appeal to the voters since this is an elections year, 2019. most of the assessments showed that they cannot be categorised as destitute people despite the fact that Align inspections to do with compliance with the parents are unable to send them to school. Something Employment Act. Go to Bobirwa constituency, Mashatu that was a good intention on your part becomes negative farms. Minister, workers at these farms need to be to us as leaders in such areas. checked regularly. Come up with a programme that will ensure that reports from inspections go to a central The second issue that I want to talk about is the place, maybe to the Commissioner of Labour so that Construction Industries Trust Fund (CITF). Minister, they can be able to have a holistic picture of the whole I believe that CITF at this point in time equips many country, what emerging problems are there. Employees youth to venture into businesses because they are at Tuli Block are crying. Come to their rescue. offered short courses which sharpens skills that they already have. My problem is that, there are few CITF Bobonong Brigade; Minister, explain what your centres across the country. We used to have CITF in intentions are about Bobonong Brigade. We want to Mahalapye, and it was relocated. So I wonder where see the brigades’ students so that we can help you on the youth around Mahalapye-Shoshong will access it. It the programme which we promised to assist you on. was such that once they have sharpened their skills, they We have people who were trained with a lot of money could form construction and maintenance companies and have retired. These people can be utilised like we or cooperatives, but if they do not have access to an are saying retired police officers and soldiers are going institution such as CITF, they lose opportunities. to guide students at the brigades. When you respond, I wish to hear you cite Bobonong brigade, resource this Lastly, I will talk about character building. I commend brigade because it has shortage of resources due to lack you for that. In addition to that, we should look at other of funds. I will check on them and I will ask them if programs like Scripture Union (SU), boy’s scouts and Minister Mabeo has ever been there. Thank you. many more where they can be engaged. All these will assist our children who are in brigades to deal with ASSISTANT MINISTER OF YOUTH different life challenges. EMPOWERMENT, SPORT AND CULTURE DEVELOPMENT (MR MAKGALEMELE): Moreover, there are some Batswana who wrote about Thank you Mr Chairperson. Let me first indicate that I the issue of character building like Mr Raphel Sikwane support your proposal and it is commendable that you who noted that it is in fact achievable. In your efforts have increased the numbers of students that you have to expand the programme of character building, writers admitted at brigades this year and in addition to this, you who are also influential as well as teachers like Mr have increased the number of programmes that they do. Raphel Sikwane, you must collaborate with them so that At the end of these, I believe that most of them can help we can find out how they can assist. the youth create employment opportunities and even There are other organisations including a particular employ others. We have complaints at my constituency one in South Korea, it is called International Youth in Shoshong Honourable Mabeo. Most of the parents Federation which specialises in character building. If whose children have been admitted are unable to send only we can devise ways through which we can focus them to brigades where they have been admitted. on character building, it would be possible to collect different ideas so as to assist the youth Sir. MR CHAIRPERSON: Order! Honourable Makgalemele, I think you are 20. Order! Proceed, I did Mr Chairperson, with those words, I support the not see the other Member who has curled up in the chair. Minister. Thank you.

18 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

MR SALAKAE (GHANZI NORTH): Thank you Mr people of Okavango will tell you that, “we do not have Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, if a person was to come a representative and there are no jobs where we come to this House from South Africa, Namibia or Zimbabwe, from.” I will then tell them that the problem is that they he/she could wonder who the leaders are and who are are working for a company which cannot give them jobs members of opposition because everyone is crying from which is Domkrag, anyway, we will find a place for you so that we can stay until November 2019, we could every side. At times when I stand, I wonder if those change that. who are quiet, are they doing so just so they can listen to us. But when they stand, they also cry, Government Brigades; I was looking at Page 3 Honourable Minister. employees also wonder whether they are the solution Although we cried about brigades, you only managed to in such a solution. I am saying this because of poor address the issue of Okavango. That is why I wonder, do relations. People are crying at Choppies, in the security you as Ministers ever listen when we talk? Everybody companies, just everywhere including in Parliament here cried about brigades in their constituencies but the from the leaders. What are we supposed to do, please Minister managed to maintain Okavango alone. Which tell me? That is why we suspect that a time has come for means that the Minister does not hear other things that us to hand over to others, perhaps they will not cry and we say. I also wonder if they record them properly … offer solutions instead. I realised that, that is why you do not want to broadcast these things in television because HONOURABLE MEMBER: May I correct him Batswana will wonder what happened to you because please. you are crying and there is no solution. This morning, MR SALAKAE: … let me quote, “maintenance of staff someone said this to me, “it is said that you are going houses for these brigades has been deferred to 2019 and to discuss Honourable Mabeo’s ministry in Parliament, 2020.” We are in 2019 and it is deferred once again. I ask him to talk to the police because they are refusing to do not understand if English is the barrier or I am the pay our severance benefits and gratuity. Where should one who is lost because we are now in 2019/2020 today. we go?” I believe that if Honourable Mabeo could Perhaps you thought that you wrote 2020 to 2021. It stand and cry on behalf of his ministry, then you would makes me wonder Mr Chairperson, when will our wonder what we should do.I was ... representatives stand up and address these issues which trouble Batswana because they are in a serious pain. I HONOURABLE MEMBER: Order Mr Speaker! can see that you are faking tears. Let us look for those who will listen to Batswana as well as assist them. MR SALAKAE: I am running out of time. Issues of brigades are caused by people who lost in MR MABEO: Mr Chairperson, I think Honourable elections, people like Honourable Kgathi who believe Salakae must focus on what has to be done. We are here that as members of Domkrag, that is all which they can as a department so that we can listen to you, you must offer Batswana. It is really painful. come up with solutions as a way of helping us, instead of letting him cry as well as telling us that people are MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Salakae, who is crying. Kgathi?

MR CHAIRPERSON: They say that you must stop MR SALAKAE: Honourable Madundwane Shaw crying Honourable Salakae. Kgathi. MR CHAIRPERSON: Ok, Proceed. MR SALAKAE: Yes Sir. The solution is to give others a chance so that we can know who to cry to. Now if we MR SALAKAE: Let us be serious Honourable are all crying here and others are also crying that side... members, we are telling our children that they should apply… I plead with the Minister to collaborate with the police because he is now asking us to bring solutions. The HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Mr Special Constables are crying Honourable Minister Chairperson. because their gratuity is not payed. MR SALAKAE: … to brigades so that they can acquire In Ghanzi, they are crying more because of the skills which can aid their survival, but now they spend people who come from Honourable Bagalatia Arone’s their time doing about turn, turn to the right, turn to the constituency. If you go to Ghanzi labour offices, the left …

Hansard No 193 19 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND think you must look at your charges, I honestly believe COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): Point of P3,000 which is a combination of your P1,500 and the order. You were correcting Honourable member because other P1,500 for work and residence permit, I think it is you asked him who Kgathi is. The problem is; he said too much. that it is Honourable Kgathi and went on to call him with a name that is not his, saying Honourable Madundwane MADAM CHAIRPERSON (MS KOKORWE): Kgathi on the microphone. So, you must withdraw that Order! Honourable Minister, we do not have a quorum, because that is not his name. we have 19 members.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)...... Silence... MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Stop going out because MS MAKGATO: No, we are talking about the you are wasting time for debate. Honourable Makgato, procedure of this House. We have names which are you were on the floor. registered here and we do not have Madundwane… MS MAKGATO: I was on the floor Madam MR CHAIRPERSON: I did not hear him saying Chairperson. I was talking about him revisiting his Madundwane. Did you say so Sir? charges, so that he can respond to the perceived issues MS MAKGATO: …and it was once addressed of private sector, who believe that this market is very specifically about Madundwane in Parliament. expensive in terms of getting permits and so forth. I think you can look at that. MR CHAIRPERSON: I did not hear him saying Madundwane. Did you say so Sir? I also want to talk about the brigade which is in Chadibe. First of all, I thank you for having considered us about MR SALAKAE: Yes, I said so because he told me that, that brigade. When I was at the constituency recently that it is his name. they said you should increase other trades over and above what you have because when we were opening HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... it we said there would be others. So we have not yet MR CHAIRPERSON: No, that is not his name. started the second or third phase. They also said they miss you, that you should come and visit them. They MR SALAKAE: I withdraw. were very happy to have you when you were there during the opening. So if they could see you in person, The issues at Choppies, Spar, security; just go to the they would be very happy so that they would give you front of labour offices and ask what the problem is with advise. So, I hope you will visit them so that you can people who ran from Okavango. You should also stop talk. I would like you to visit our farms, my issues are crying; how can we tell you why people are crying similar to that of Honourable Kgathi. There are farms while you on the other hand are also crying. No ways! along the Limpopo areas. Often our people who work MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND there raise issues of labour at Dikgotla meetings that COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): Thank they are ill-treated. So my request is that as a Minister you very much Mr Chairperson. I stand to support the you visit all those farms such as Matlakalancheke along Honourable Member here for his Motion. This is a Martins drift and Sherwood. Your office in Palapye goes ministry that I really like and I also enjoyed working there at times, but I think they are saying, now they need with him as an Assistant Minister while working with the Minister himself to come and see them. So that is the permits. I want to encourage you to continue to reform request I bring forth. this ministry further, to try and improve the turn-around The last issue I know that it has already been raised but times for work permits. I want you to allow us as women this issue will make some to lose elections. Security in Botswana to employ maids just as men are permitted companies; and it makes me sad to be standing in this to employ herdboys. Men realised that it is difficult to Parliament talking about businesses owned by Batswana. deal with the work at the cattle post and they decided to Everywhere you reserve a business for Batswana, the employ herdboys . Even us as women, when we meet, standard drops. Is the simplest business of all called we talk about the issues of shortage of maids, so they security, all they have to do is pay employees. They are should also be allowed to have work permits. I also not paying employees.

20 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

MINISTER OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY (MR OLOPENG): On a point of elucidation. Thank MR KWEREPE: Or the woman, thank you Honourable. you Madam Chairperson. Thank you Honourable for However, the majority are men. So, it is difficult to work yielding. My question is since we have heard enough in an environment where you are not able to see your complaints about security companies, what action wife or husband. should we take before this House adjourns? The second issue regarding security companies has MS MAKGATO: We should advise the Minister. Since already been discussed by my colleagues; Minister majority of us are advising him so that he can take action. you should look into this issue, we are complaining, Sitting here, I am saying all these security companies employees of these security companies are complaining. which commit transgressions should be blacklisted The most painful part is that most of these security because security companies are no longer security. companies are owned by Batswana, but after getting Their level of training; when they post a security officer the money they do not pay their employees. There are at your place, training of that person is zero, they do not complaints every single day. I once visited one village train them. One security officer once said to me, “My called Sepopa and there are complaints, even today sister, they just recruited me from Zola at a drinking spot employees are complaining because they are not paid. so that I can come and guard this place.” He was saying Minister please assess to see if it is still necessary to that as he was posted in that post and he was being continue awarding these security companies tenders honest. So I think we must take it seriously, you must looking at the way they are exploiting our people. look at it. They must vet these people because otherwise I am also thankful for the improvement of the relationship they are the ones who are going to commit crimes. They between the Government and unions. This is something must buy these children or workers uniform and have we have to be grateful for Minister. I wanted to be brief, working times and overtime, as they are in this sector it thank you. does not mean that just because they are Batswana they can do as they like. We must have a standard. Thank you MR MMOLOTSI (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): very much. Thank you very much Madam Chairperson. Minister you have to seriously take action concerning your ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION ministry. Honourable Members have just complained (MR KWEREPE): Let me thank you and agree with about security companies and every one should be the Minister’s budget proposal. Let me also thank him as concerned because security companies are exploiting he is one the people who heeded my request to build the Batswana. In Botswana if there are companies that do Construction Industry Trust Fund (CITF) at Tsau which not pay people and underpays them after a long time I think will realise your objectives written in paragraph is security companies. The painful thing is that these 24 of skill development. Minister I implore you to visit security companies are contracted by Government and my constituency at tourists camps; the conflict between they are paid every month whereas they are failing to pay the employers and employees needs you in person so people. My worry is that when these jobs are advertised that you can see what is happening in those tourists when security companies tender for these jobs I do not camps and if the conditions are conducive for both the understand if they do not add escalation costs because employers and employees. when you increase salaries they do not because they say they did not put that into consideration when tendering. Minister as you are aware they are looking after tourists So it means security companies employees will continue there by taking them on wildlife tours involving very to stick to the same salaries because they say “when dangerous animals like lions and elephants. They we prepared the tender document we were looking at travel through rivers infested with hippopotamuses and this figure.” So you will find that security company crocodiles. I do not want to ruin the way they raised employees are in trouble. their complaints so Minister I implore you to pay them a visit at their camps in Ngami when Parliament adjourns Another issue is that they are those who have guard so that you can listen to their complaints. One of their dogs and those who do not so you will find that those painful complaints are that their spouses are not allowed who patrol with guard dogs are paid less yet they are to visit them so that man will stay there for countless walking around with dangerous creatures. Those dogs months; he only goes home after… are heavier than the security officer yet he is paid less

Hansard No 193 21 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

and they are paid after a long time. Minister you have MR MOLEFE (MAHALAPYE WEST): I thank you to look into these things, a security officer has to be Madam Chairperson. Honourable Minister, let me start paid for his core duty and an allowance for patrolling by thanking you for your budget presentation. I am with a dog which is very dangerous because if it can be rising here to support you. Madam Chairperson, what I set free and it kills a person, the security officer would have observed in the Minister’s request, considering the be in trouble. So Minister you have to look into these importance of his ministry, skills development, and the conditions of service because I realise that the current roles under your ministry; considering the lack of jobs, employers harass Batswana and make fun of them. we are still short of experts. On that note Honourable When Labour calls them for mediation, they do not Minister, I believe the funds you have requested are too come; they do not care because they know their case minimal and would not enable you to embark on your would be referred to the Industrial Court. When the case projects more effectively. is transferred to Industrial Court it is going to take a long time and the employer would be hoping that is in I am encouraging you to continue with the talks that you the process the employee would die or something would have started with the unions; you should be the eyes happen, and the poor person would litigate regarding and the Government’s spokesperson, because you are the monies for two to three years, awaiting the case to Government; continue working with unions. Continue to be heard at the Industrial Court, so that they would be respect, and administer the various agreements that the paid. So Minister, these things are not working for us; unions and federations have. By so doing Honourable offering their service and when they are supposed to Minister, it would assist us with productivity because receive what is due to them, that does not happen, hence employees would work passionately on their daily they would have to go to the Industrial Court which duties. would take forever to assist that person. I would like to commend you for the programme you In the issues regarding skills development Minister, I have already started regarding skills training centres. As think you are aware that we have graduates that have the other Members have already said, Minister, let these various skills, and they are not employed. That being skills training centres grow; we should not see them at the case, I think it is time for you to find out how many a level of brigades where one level of training would be of them have Humanities, Social Work, and so forth; done, without any growth. Since they are skills training centres Honourable Minister; let me advise that even from there check for Master’s degree courses that are those who do not have minimum entry requirements that available, and upon completion of these they might be are needed at these centres; those who are already semi- able to get jobs. Maybe if those who did Humanities are skilled; we have Batswana whom when we talk about many, and you have observed that in the marketing field plumbing, they know how a pipe should be levelled; there are many job opportunities, you could admit them they know how to connect a pipe, yet they have never for a Master’s Degree in Marketing Management or been to any specialised or programmed training. About Strategic Management. Just so that these students would those ones Minister, let there be a place where your be able to study for something that upon completion ministry or centres can accommodate them, so that one they would be able to get jobs, otherwise I foresee these could manage to go to a centre like the one in Chadibe, students getting old without getting jobs. or whichever, and say “I am a brick layer, but I do not Honourable Minister, the other thing is that those have any certificates, I would like to be profiled, and expatriates who are assisting us with certain skills registered, and be tested to find out whether I know how that we need in Botswana, please do not make them to mix the cement and lay the bricks properly.” Then suffer regarding the renewal of their work permits; do they would be able to be certificated by these centres not make them suffer by denying them work permits. in your ministry Honourable Minister. That would Let us consider how they are needed where they are really help us as Batswana. If I may give an example, working, and issue work permits to them so that they in Mahalapye we had a water reticulation project, and would continue assisting us because our economy is those two companies had employed Batswana from still growing; hence it still needs expatriates here and Mahalapye and the surrounding villages; they were there. Let us ensure that we assist these people at the about 800 or so in number. Most of them were semi- appropriate time, and not make them disgruntled to the skilled labour. As we speak, they have gone back to their extent of them relocating to better countries than ours. homes, but when you engage them, they know how to

22 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

fit a gauge valve for a 900mm pipe; they know how it things, especially because this is one of the important is flushed, how it should be tied. Such skills that they ministries, considering issues of job protection and job have acquired for two years when they were working employment. Last time I asked a question as to why it for the companies that were doing plumbing that side was not imperative for major private companies and the Minister, are skills which if such a person could be Government to employ psychologists that would assist taken and profiled, tested and given a certificate ora in protecting those who are already working, and address document stating that they had previously worked in the consequences of what happens when someone loses a plumbing environment; that they know how to tie a their job. They would assist us with readiness to work gauge valve, or whatever (sennanne); that could really and protection, as well as what might happen when assist Batswana in future, Minister. someone leaves their job. We saw some people taking their own lives because they were retrenched from BCL The Honourable Members have also talked about work and Tati Nickel. So what can happen if such legislation permits. Minister, we can see that regarding work could be put in place; and at the same time it would be permits your ministry is… assisting in creating employment.

MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND The other thing that I would like to point out to you COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): Point Honourable Minister is that, let your ministry go out of order. Madam Speaker, I just wanted to say the to people, instead of being confined to the offices; it Honourable Member should correct his statement. I has to carry out inspections. We have to see branded think he did not hear what he said; he said “whatever” Government vehicles from your ministry, going around (sennanne). We cannot use such a word in Parliament, showing that something is happening. Inspections sir; so he should correct that. private security companies and the private sector pay MADAM CHAIRPERSON: What is going on with employees very late. The work ethics are low. the word sennanne? Honourable please correct, I do not know what that sennanne is. In addition, there is a law that allows an individual to be employed for six months, and then after that their MR MOLEFE: Thank you Madam Chairperson. contract is renewed. Companies are taking advantage of “Etcetera, etcetera,” I was just giving an example the Act. Honourable Minister, this is slavery. There is saying… no person who can only be hired for six months; what HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… do you expect me to do in six months if I am not at Ipelegeng? MR MOLEFE: I was talking about training categories or various job categories Madam Chairperson. I was Labour laws are also not obeyed. Retrenchments are talking about things like electricity, so anyway let not done in a proper way. There should be an intense me not say “whatever” (sennanne). When someone training offered to the employer and the employees so is a labourer, and a company is awarded a tender for that people can know their rights when they are hired. connecting electricity, they employ a labourer to Some of these things are caused by the fact that people connect those lines. I did not want to differentiate between the various job categories hence the use of the do not know their rights but the more the people are word “whatever.” informed of their rights, you cannot disrespect them anyhow. Work permits Madam Chairperson; as we have already advised you Minister, they take long. Let us make a People from fire… request here that when a work permit is rejected, you HONOURABLE MEMBER: What is Fire? should go and check where the applicant is working and confirm whether or not where they are working, there MR BILLY: The Fire Department, firemen who are locals who are doing job shadowing. You should extinguish fire under the management of Councils. also take a note of that. I thank you Madam Chairperson. Honourable Minister, their salary gaps are scary. MR BILLY (FRANCISTOWN EAST): I thank When is the 2012 Scheme of Fire Service going to be you Madam Chairperson. Let me support my implemented? When is it going to be implemented to try colleague, but in so doing let me talk about a few to amend the salary gaps among the employees?

Hansard No 193 23 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

Their Conditions of Service are also not appealing MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is he saying that you because they work under harsh conditions, having to are a clown? Where does he get that? combat and extinguish fire in industrial places and bush fires. They sometimes have to extinguish fires which MR SERETSE: He is saying that the Minister is a are caused by chemicals with no proper protective clown. clothing. I am suggesting that you should pay attention MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Honourable. to that situation. Stop calling others clowns.

Last time when we talked about Essential Services, the MR RANTUANA: Madam Chairperson, I was saying Fire Department was also mentioned and among their that Character Building course is a joke. We cannot talk rights was the right to free accommodation and shift about Character Building while people are busy learning allowances. So, I want to understand why they are still in classrooms. Why can this Character Building not be not given those rights. Minister, that can improve this availed in all schools if at all… department. HONOURABLE MEMBER:…(Inaudible)… In short, I request that this ministry should stay clear from offices. It should have branded cars to show that it MR RANTUANA: Yes, if at all it is a necessity. is existing and it is alive. Thank you sir. MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Is it the one where MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Rantuana children parade? there are only two minutes. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Yes! That one. MR RANTUANA (RAMOTSWA): Two minutes! Oh MR RANTUANA: That one. You also saw that there is man! Thank you Madam Chairperson. Two minutes is no seriousness in that. too short a time. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR RANTUANA: When the brigades moved to… MR RANTUANA: This department of Vocational Education is misplaced, it is in the wrong Ministry. It HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… should have been taken seriously by being moved to Tertiary Education. Right now it is being taken lightly, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Laughter!)… it was announced that something is going to be carried MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Leader of out, what building was that? the House, you cannot say that I am out of order while HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… going outside.

MR RANTUANA: Character Building is just games, it LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): does not show that Vocational Education is being taken Point of order. Madam Chairperson there is a saying seriously. If you were at Tertiary Education, you could in Setswana which goes “loso logolo ke ditshego” have seen the benefits similar to those at Botho College meaning that sometimes people can laugh even amidst and these fly by night universities which take a lot of serious issues. If you can look at politics of this era our money… and other politics and read books, they will tell you that there is deficiency of character in all various scopes of HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. the leadership of the world. So, Character Building is MR RANTUANA: Who are you calling to order? very critical and the most important thing in life. People are saying that it is a game just because they do not HONOURABLE MEMBER: You! understand these things. So, Character Building lacks in MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND leadership everywhere. HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR SERETSE): MADAM CHAIRPERSON: I thought that you were Point of order. No, Madam Chairperson, please call the going to respond to the left turn, right turn. Honourable Member to order so that he can stop saying that the Minister is a clown. MR TSOGWANE: No! Madam Chairperson.

24 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

MADAM CHAIRPERSON: …(Laughter!)… Okay! to pass time for first year students, but for the purpose Proceed Honourable. of contributing to empowerment of youth in different aspects of psychosocial and entrepreneurial skills MR RANTUANA: Thank you Madam Chairperson. It Madam Chairperson. They should understand it in that depends on who is doing the Character Building as well aspect. as if he portrays it. There is a problem if it is going to be taught by someone who does not have it. Madam Honourable Batshu was talking about Tutume Brigade, Chairperson, people… the brigade was maintained under Economic Stimulus Programme (ESP). However, there is still a contentious MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Time up. issue between the contractor and Ministry of Basic MR RANTUANA: …people are suffering in companies Education, and we hope to continue with maintenance especially those who work by the roads. after the issue is resolved and closed.

MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Your time is up. Honourable Tshireletso talked about Madiba, saying Madiba was also maintained under ESP. The buildings MR RANTUANA: … I do not know if they are ever are old, but some expansion projects resumed in tested on whether the dust in the roads where they 2019/2020 financial year. We built a new kitchen and work… ablution block, construction is ongoing. MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Yes, We heard you. Time Honourable Makgalemele, in appreciation of the fact is up. that allowance provided to brigades students is only MR RANTUANA: Are they ever tested Madam P300. Honourable Members you will notice that it is a Chairperson? small amount of money. The ministry is trying to review if that allowance can be increased so that students can MADAM CHAIRPERSON: we heard you Honourable. be able to pay for their accommodation. I think it was Thank you. Honourable Minister it is now time for you still Honourable Makgalemele who said that children to respond. are admitted at far away schools. What I want to say MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR is that, I think as parents we should remember that it is PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT time for us to contribute to the education of our children. (MR MABEO): I am grateful that time moved fast We are assessing their challenges, like have been saying when this clown was still debating. Thank you Madam Chairperson. Let me thank all the Honourable Members that we want to increase their allowance. who contributed to my submission. Just quickly Madam Honourable Salakae, terms and conditions of service for Chairperson, let me respond to individual members. the police. Those are governed by the Police Act, and I Honourable Batshu, he talked about brigades, just to say take it that Honourable Kgathi was listening to that. all brigades are undergoing refurbishment. However, Madam Chairperson, we have to note that most of the Honourable Nkaigwa, all registered trade unions are brigades were dilapidated. I believe that we should not recognised. That is why the likes of Botswana Federation forget that those brigades were very old. of Public Service Unions (BOFEPUSU) engages any consultative structures involving Government Procurement of tools is on going Madam Chairperson and delivery has been made in all institutions, but not employers and the workers. all tools were ordered. We are still working on those Honourable Kgathi, I welcome his comment that we ones. Indeed Madam Chairperson, there is shortage of need to be closer to the people. Let me indicate that staff and the ministry has engaged temporary staff le rationalisation exercise is ongoing to ensure permanency we are trying, we send staff to rural areas to go and of staff. educate on employment. You know that even on radio we are available. Honourable Kgathi’s issue on security There is this Character Building which seems like a lot companies, we are working on it. As you know that they of Honourable Members here do not understand what are regulated from Honourable Kgathi’s ministry and it is. Citing my friend who is in front of me. Let me the employment of those security companies fall under point out that Character Building was not introduced my ministry, whenever there are numerous complaints

Hansard No 193 25 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2600: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply (Resumed Debate)

against a certain company, we note it. Then we pass it when companies do not follow the regulations you note to Honourable Kgathi because he is the one who can them. Please confirm if there are some which you have deregister these companies if they are not following the once referred to Honourable Kgathi’s ministry because regulations. he was adamant that he is waiting for you and it seems as if you are the one who is not doing the needful on In an effort to promote agriculture, Government reduced these cases. application fees for temporary permit which is valid for six months, from a thousand Pula to P500. I think in that MR MABEO: Madam Chairperson, I want to confirm area we have tried. Honourable Makgato, the process of that we do not just note them, we do this after we go and working is caused by the extensive manual processing appreciate the situation. Honourable Member, there are of the applications, and my ministry has budgeted companies we have referred to Honourable Kgathi. It for automation of the process of making permits this is an ongoing process just as you continue to complain financial year, 2019/2020. On the one that we should about the security companies which are not paying its allow women to engage non-citizens as housekeepers people. like we do with herdsmen, the issue would be considered Honourable Member. However, we will have to consult Madam Chairperson, let me go back to the issue raised with the unions on those issues or the stakeholders, but by Honourable Makgato. She said that we should reduce it is a reasonable request. work permits and residence fees. I must confirm that these are some of the things that we are looking into. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND I remember that in the last High Level Consultative COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): On a point Council (HLCC) if not the one before, we talked about of clarification. I want to ask my colleague if he has ever these issues being some of the impediments, and we involved trade unions when negotiating for herdsmen resolved that the impediments which are there need to that today when we talk about maids he then says he will be dealt with. It is an issue that is on the table to attract talk to the unions? investors of value to our country.

MR MABEO: There is a reason why I do not take Several Members have expressed concern about certain clarifications. As we move on, you have heard conditions of employment in security companies. I the way that Honourable Members have been speaking believe that investigations have been carried out by on our cooperation with the unions and therefore it is the ministry on this matter. The investigations have imperative to notify them and all the stakeholders of revealed that these companies are contracted by various any change. Let me yield for my colleague, he has long organisations and public entities, including Government called for clarification. and maybe even some in this room. I must indicate that after these companies provide service, payment to them MR NTLHAILE: On a point of clarification. Thank for the service rendered is delayed. Yes, of course some you Minister. Minister, I heard you earlier saying that pay late but there are some who are paid late by their the police salaries are handled by the relevant ministry. employers. I want to encourage employers to pay their Do you not think that it is important for your ministry workers on time so that they can also pay those who are to offer advice when the salary structure of the police also in their payroll on time. is reviewed? There should not be a lot of difference between Special Constable and Constable in terms of Dispute resolution; Honourable Nkaigwa, the current salaries because the difference is quite substantial. I mediation process is the international best practice, want you to look into that issue Minister. unfortunately he is not here. District labour offices were in the past operating as labour courts, of the level of MR MABEO: Thank you Honourable Member. That Magistrate Grade 2. Orders were binding, the system was is true Honourable Member. Truth be told, we do not changed to align with international standards in 2004. A operate in silos as ministries. We also advice each other new system was introduced where parties participated at the Cabinet. I will take your advice. and owned the mediation outcome. The role of the labour DR P. BUTALE: On a point of clarification. Thank offices is to facilitate dialogue amongst the parties. you Madam Chairperson. Thank you Minister. maybe The parties resolved their disputes by participating let me refer you back to the statement you made that actively in the process. Where amicable solution was not possible, adjudication of labour disputes by the

26 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2700: MINISTRY OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY - Committee of Supply

Industrial Court was deemed appropriate, particularly the Public Service Act, the Employment Act and others because people who preside over our trade disputes at under that ministry. I would like to commend the unions Industrial Court are trained in law. I believe that you and I hope that in June when we will be going for the will tell him my colleagues. ILO conference we will go there united.

Honourable Kgathi also talked about work permits for In the past, we saw the President being supportive and agriculture. Just to say, my ministry in conjunction with the salaries were even increased. I believe that these are Ministry of Agriculture, have agreed on a reduced fee some of the things that really motivate workers. This like I have said of those referred to as seasonal workers. country is for us all and no one can claim to own a larger I believe that I have addressed it and that the permit part of it than others, therefore we should remain united is valid for six months. This has assisted the sector to going forward. recruit non-citizens during critical seasons like harvest time. Having said that Madam Chairperson and thanked the unions profusely, I want to move Madam Chairperson. Another one Madam Chairperson is about … Madam Chairperson, I request that the sum of Seven Hundred and Forty-Five Million, Three Hundred and MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Quorum! Fifty-Seven Thousand, Eight Hundred and Thirty Pula …Silence… (P745, 357,830.00) under the Recurrent Budget for Organisation 2600 be approved and stand part of the MR NTLHAILE: On a point of order Madam Schedule of Appropriation (2019/2020) Bill, 2019 (No. Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, just a reminder to 1 of 2019); and that the sum of Eighty-Three Million the Honourable Minister before he moves, I believe Pula (P83, 000,000.00) for Organisation 2600 under he should check the Ministry of Local Government the Development Budget be approved and stand part because it is not complying. It has hired Batswana under of those estimates for the financial year 2019/2020. I the Ipelegeng programme and these people have not therefore move accordingly Madam Chairperson. I been provided with protective clothing, considering that thank you. nowadays they have been given roles that they did not do in the past. I think we cannot keep encouraging the Question put and agreed to. companies to abide while the Government is not doing ORGANISATION 2700: MINISTRY OF what the law requires them to do. TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, MADAM CHAIRPERSON: No, stop arguing more so SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY that you are debating about a different ministry. MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Order! Order! We are doing Tertiary Education, Research, Science and MR NTLHAILE: I am addressing the Minister of Technology. 2 hours 25 minutes is allocated for this Employment and this matter falls under him. He should organisation and I shall call upon the Honourable see to it that the Ministry abides by the law. The people Minister to reply to the debate at 1545 hours tomorrow working under the Ipelegeng programme should be and the question will be put at 1615 hours. provided with protective clothing, otherwise this House will be out of order. I thank you Madam Chairperson if MINISTER OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, it will ignore that important factor. RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY (MR OLOPENG): Thank you very much Madam MR MABEO. We hear you Honourable Member. Like Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, I distributed I have already stated, our ministry is not the only one my presentation last week Friday and I take it that that is responsible for that programme, however we Honourable Members have gone through this great shall note that down. presentation. Now this is time for me to summarise my presentation as follows; Madam Chairperson, I will conclude by thanking the tripartite; unions, the government and International Madam Chairperson, it is my pleasure today to present Labour Organisation (ILO) with the Labour Law Review to this Honourable House my ministry Budget Estimates Committee that is in service right now. I am saying this for the financial year 2019/2020. As you are aware, because it is doing a very good job morespecially with the ministry’s mandate is to transform the economy

Hansard No 193 27 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2700: MINISTRY OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY - Committee of Supply

from resource based to knowledge based which is to Accountancy College (BAC) through its Industry be achieved through improving quality and relevance Skills Centre, trained over 300 young people in the of education and training, improving performance in ICT industry, and also up-skilled over 60 employees research and innovation, as well as promoting public who serve in the telecommunications industry. The safety and security in the use of nuclear technologies. Botswana International University of Science and Technology (BIUST) trained 765 teachers in ICT. In On that note Madam Chairperson, before I proceed addition, they offered entrepreneurship training to 42 with my presentation on the budget proposal, allow Youth Development Fund beneficiaries and 36 Palapye me to start by apprising this Honourable House on the Rovers Scouts. The University of Botswana’s Faculty ministry’s performance on some of the major activities. of Business in collaboration with the Frankfurt School Human Resource Development of Finance and Management trained Botswana Women Entrepreneurs with funding from the European Union. The National Human Resource Development Plan has Furthermore, the Botswana Accountancy College in been completed and Human Resource Development partnership with Botswana Investment and Trade Centre Council (HRDC) is currently consulting stakeholders, (BITC) co-sponsored young entrepreneurs’ competition both in public and private sector on the draft plan. The dubbed “Investment Battlefield.” plan will subsequently be submitted to Cabinet for final approval and adoption as a national document guiding Madam Chairperson, the ministry sponsored 13 490 human capital development in Botswana. The high-level new students in the financial year 2018/2019 compared impact of implementing this plan is to produce globally to 11 998 for the year 2017/2018. Currently, the total competitive human resources that will use their skills to number of students under Government Sponsorship is drive the transformation of this country to a high-level 35, 777 which include 522 students placed externally. income status as envisaged in Vision 2036. The areas that have been prioritised for training are health, engineering, professional accounting, finance Madam Chairperson, the Human Resource Development and business. Council continues to organise skills fair and career clinics to augment the efforts of career guidance and The ministry has initiated a project to update the counselling in our schools. We are beginning to see a Students Loan Management System (SLMS). The shift from Social Sciences programmes to Science and project commenced in February 2019 and is planned Technology programmes as reflected in the Annual for completion in August 2019. The upgraded system is Tertiary Education Statistics produced by the HRDC. expected to assist with management of the student loan On the same note, Botswana International University of information. The ultimate result will be improvements Science and Technology (BIUST) and the University of in the various students’ loan services, including loan Botswana (UB) continue to organise and host the annual recoveries. events such as the Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics Festival commonly known as Madam Chairperson, following the transformation STEM Festivals, the National Mathematics Science of the Botswana College of Open Distance Learning Fair, the International Junior Science Olympiad and (BOCODOL) into the Botswana Open University Science Sects. All these are geared towards stimulating (BOU) in December 2017, the university progressed stakeholder’s interest in Science, Technology, with development of institutional structures and Engineering and Mathematics (STEM). I am pleased to policy instruments to guide its governance at Council, report that the universities are also actively involved in Senate and Administrative levels. The Botswana the development and enhancement of STEM curricula Open University has also advanced its digital flagship through their membership in the National Science Panel. programme by institutionalising online services through which a single academic is able to simultaneously Madam Chairperson, the ministry through its various institutions continues to undertake skills development provide instruction in multiple sites. The University programmes that are targeted at re-tooling and/or has enrolled 2, 458 tertiary students in addition to over up-skilling various groups of people to capacitate 12 000 at general education level. A School of Science them for the world of work and self-empowerment. and Technology has been established to enhance the During the academic year 2018/2019, the Botswana University programmes diversification drive.

28 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2700: MINISTRY OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY - Committee of Supply

Madam Chairperson, as previously reported, the Research, Science, Technology and Innovation Botswana Education and Training system is transiting to one based on the National Credit and Qualification Madam Chairperson, in order to make strides in research Framework (NCQF). The implementation of the NCQF and innovation, it is important that different players be commenced in January 2017. The transition process accorded the opportunity to contribute towards shaping of the various levels of education and training is in the national research and innovation agenda. It is against three stages. The first stage involves the registration this background that my ministry continues to engage and accreditation of Education and Training Providers the private sector as a critical stakeholder in research (ETPs), and was scheduled to complete at the end of and innovation. December 2018 for Technical and Vocational Education Madam Chairperson, the Botswana Innovation Fund and Training (TVET) and Higher Education, while for is one avenue through which Government provides Basic Education it is scheduled to close in December support for improved performance in innovation. The 2020. Fund places emphasis on facilitation of local intellectual Madam Chairperson, that being said, out of the 307 property development and registration, innovative applications for registration and accreditation of ETPs solutions at prototype development, technology transfer received by the Botswana Qualifications Authority and pre-commercialisation. Madam Chairperson, (BQA), a total of 120 ETPs have been registered and the projects shall be implemented over a period not accredited while the rest are at different stages of the exceeding 24 months. A second call for proposal registration and accreditation processes. A total of has already been made, and the evaluation process is nine applications for registration and accreditation of ongoing. It is estimated that P16 million will be used to awarding bodies were received, of which six have been fund successful projects. registered. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… Madam Chairperson, it has become increasingly evident that the Botswana Qualifications Authority’s MR OLOPENG: Relax Honourable Members, I still mandate is overloaded. The organisation is expected to have some time. So let me educate you a bit. undertake registration of qualifications, evaluation of qualifications, registrations and accreditation of ETPs Madam Chairperson, the Botswana Innovation Hub for all subsystems (General Education, Technical and through its flagship Technology Entrepreneurship Vocational Education and Higher Education) registration Programme provides interventions for innovative and accreditation of assessors and moderators. In some and technology oriented start-up companies. Madam jurisdictions, this mandate is undertaken by different Chairperson, during the 2018/2019 financial year, institutions. There is therefore, an urgent need to revisit the Botswana Institute for Technology Research and the mandate of BQA for efficient implementation of the National Credit and Qualifications Framework. Innovation (BITRI) engaged in various research and innovation projects. These include development Madam Chairperson, the other challenge relates to of innovation systems, technologies and mobile misalignment between the BQA Act and those of applications for health and education sectors. The professional bodies such as the Botswana Health Professional Council (BHPC), Engineers Registration application of these tools will assist in re-defining the Board (ERB) and Architects Registration Council approach to teaching and learning as well as delivery (ARC). This has resulted in professional bodies not and management of health services. The school recognising some learning programmes accredited management system developed by BITRI is currently by BQA. There are also instances where qualification being used by Bakgatle Community Junior Secondary recognised by professional bodies were adjudged as School to enhance school management processes. not meeting BQA accreditation standards. This leads to graduates being unable to register, and hence not Madam Chairperson, another significant project been employable. BQA is currently engaging professional delivered by BITRI is the Kgalagadi Sand Building bodies with the view to harmonise processes. At systems Block (KSBB) project which is being implemented in level, there is a need to review the relevant Acts in order collaboration with the Poverty Eradication Office at to do away with any contradictions. Office of the President.

Hansard No 193 29 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2700: MINISTRY OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY - Committee of Supply

Madam Chairperson, I am pleased to report that 2019/2020 amounts to P4,743,125,547 (Four Billion, (BIUST) has made noticeable progress in development Seven Hundred and Forty-Three Million, One Hundred of high quality research and innovation that can be and Twenty-Five Thousand, Five Hundred and Forty- transformed into tangible products. The University’s Seven Pula). This comprises for P4,514,909,070 (Four recent research achievements include the production of Billion, Five Hundred and Forty Million, Nine Hundred soap using cow tallow sourced from the Botswana Meat and Nine Thousand and Seventy Pula) for the Recurrent Commission (BMC); I hope Honourable Ralotsia will Budget, and P202,216,477 (Two Hundred and Two keep BMC running. The University has also embarked Million, Two Hundred and Sixteen Thousand, Four upon a coal-to-liquid project. This entails converting Hundred and Seventy-Seven) for the Development coal into multiple streams of fuel and other by-products Budget. such as oil and asphalt. Madam Chairperson, the sum of P1,895,367,930 (One My ministry has started the process of infusing Billion, Eight Hundred and Ninety-Five Million, Three indigenous and traditional knowledge into the national Hundred and Sixty-Seven Thousand, Nine Hundred research agenda. The Indigenous Knowledge System and Thirty Pula) of the Recurrent Budget is proposed Strategy will be finalised during the financial year under this Head. Out of this provision, an amount of 2019/2020. The strategy will strengthen the contribution P1,770,537,070 (One Billion, Seven Hundred and of indigenous knowledge systems to social and Seventy Million, Five Hundred and Thirty-Seven economic development in the country. The University Thousand and Seventy Pula) is allocated to the eight of Botswana hosted the Indigenous Knowledge and parastatals and it is distributed as follows; very, very Data Conference which brought together practitioners important, I would not want to skip this part. University and experts from the region and beyond. The ministry of Botswana, P908 million; Botswana International will develop a database on our indigenous knowledge, University of Science and Technology, P438,306,570; products and services during the coming financial year. Botswana Open University, P159,272,550; Botswana Institute for Technology Research and Innovation Madam Chairperson, the subject of intellectual (BITRI), P89,549,480; Botswana Qualifications property is critical if we are to compete in the sphere of research and innovation. We have prioritised capacity Authority, P74,921,070; Human Resource Development development in intellectual property management, Council, P49,125,380; Botswana Innovation Hub, patent development as well as registration of trademarks P26,923,860; and Botswana Accountancy College, starting from the coming financial year 2019/2020. I am P23,668,160. Madam Chairperson, for the Department also pleased to report that my ministry will continue to of Tertiary Education, I request an amount of promote awareness of intellectual property, rights, most P2,251,615,210; recurrent budget for Tertiary Education innovators and inventors. Madam Chairperson, on public – Financing. The Department of Tertiary Training and safety and security in the use of nuclear technology. Technical Education, P365,615,040. The Department of Botswana continues to strive to ensure accountability Research, Science and Technology, P13,730,220. The for all radiation sources and nuclear material within Radiation Protection Inspectorate, P14,580,670. her borders. Regulatory activities have been intensified to minimise the risk of radiation exposure to the Madam Chairperson, that concludes my presentation public. Statutory inspections, monitoring of workers, of the 2019/2020 Recurrent and Development Budget environment and border surveillance continue to be the Proposal for the Ministry of Tertiary Education, cornerstone of ensuring nuclear and radiation safety. Research and Technology. I therefore move that the sum Madam Chairperson, in order to be at par with emerging of P4,514,909,070 for the Recurrent Budget be approved global developments, this year, we will review the and stand part of the Schedule of the 2019/2020 Integrated Nuclear Security Support Plan 2016/2018 Appropriation Bill, 2019 (Bill No. 1 of 2019) for Head for the country in collaboration with the International 2700, and P202,216,477 in the Development Fund Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and a new three-year Estimates be approved and form part of those estimates. plan will be developed. Madam Chairperson, I thank you. I move accordingly.

Madam Chairperson, I shall now turn to the budget MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Honourable proposal for the financial year 2019/2020. Madam Minister. Order! Order! The question for consideration Chairperson, the proposed budget for the financial year this afternoon is that the sum of P4,514,909,070 for

30 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2700: MINISTRY OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY - Committee of Supply

Organisation Number 2700 in the Schedule, stand part to make sure that we train these young people for the of the Schedule and the Revised Total Estimated costs world, not necessarily for the country but for the world. for the Sub-Organisations in Organisation Number 2700 If they are able to be trained up to PhD levels, let us do in the Development Fund Estimates stand part of those that. estimates. With regard to the University of Botswana (UB), let me start with the students. I think the allowance should be MR KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): increased Honourable Olopeng. In the past, I think it was Thank you Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, P1.900, it was reduced, and recently it was increased by we live in the era of the fourth industrial revolution P200. I think you have to review this tertiary education and we should position ourselves as a country. I do not allowance, it is very little. I do not have time, please understand why at this point in time, learners or pupils correct when you respond. at secondary schools are not yet provided with tablets. I think it is something that we need to consider. Personally, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. I learnt computers after completing my Form 5 and I do MR KEORAPETSE: What clarification? No! no! not think that any young person should meet a computer Madam Chairperson, I think there is no time, you are after finishing their O’ Levels in this day and age. I think going to have 30 minutes to respond. it is very important that in this positioning of ourselves in the era of the fourth industrial revolution, we need to HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, one second. consider that it is very, very important to increase our MINISTER OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, budget for research and development because there is RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY positive correlation between spending in research and (MR OLOPENG): Thank you Honourable Member. development and the size of the economy of the country Are you referring to only UB, because you have said or the level of development. when it comes to University of Botswana, and you talked of allowance increase? If you look at how the top countries spend, relative to their Gross Domestic Product (GDP) on research MR KEORAPETSE: No, student allowances for all and development, I think they are currently led by the tertiary institutions, they must be increased. Also for United States (US), followed by China, Japan – Japan Student Representative Councils (SRCs), empower them. When we were students at UB, the SRC was in fact is spending 3.1 per cent of their GDP in research running a bar, canteen and other ventures, but today’s and development. When you at the number of patents SRCs are disempowered. We have people running registered in these countries, you will find that there businesses at UB, Botswana Accountancy College are many. It is very important that we start reviewing (BAC), Botswana International University of Science how much we spend on research and development, and Technology (BIUST), but we do not have students how many patents we register as a country because engaged in businesses. I think you need to empower as I have said, it is important. We cannot achieve high them, give them back their bar and canteen and open income status and the knowledge economy when we that 411. It is important that that bar is open so that it do not invest in research and development. I think will reduce the risk of students going outside and getting you should consider that there are many unemployed drunk outside campus. graduates. Create incentives and make it attractive for Review the salaries of University of Botswana these young men and women to study postgraduate academics. Look at the disparity between UB and programmes; MAs, MScs, PhDs. Most of these tertiary BIUST. I am not saying there is anything wrong with institutions still have foreigners teaching there, not that paying BIUST Professors well, but they should not there is anything wrong with them; we have Ghanaians, be any disparity between somebody working at UB, Zambians, Nigerians because especially when you Botswana University of Agriculture and Natural look at Ghana, the way they have invested in education Resources (BUAN), somebody working .., because and train their people all the way to PhD and Masters’ these universities are all owned by the Government. Degree levels. That is why they ended up teaching in Most of them, I am not much interested in the fly-by- most of our universities. I think it is very important night institutions, some of them operating in shopping

Hansard No 193 31 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2700: MINISTRY OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY - Committee of Supply

complexes, but I am talking about serious universities Vocational education; I think as Honourable Rantuana like UB, BIUST, BUAN, BAC and so forth. Look at the was saying, the technical colleges and brigades are salaries of academics. misplaced under the Ministry of Employment, Labour and Skills Development, Honourable Mabeo’s ministry. Seven per cent salary increment, why are you refusing They must relocate to Ministry of Tertiary Education, the seven per cent in respect of UB? I think UB Research, Science and Technology. academics and support staff are owed this seven per cent. The seven per cent ought to be paid to them, I do Fly-by-night tertiary institutions; no! Madam not think it is fair to not pay this seven per cent. Please Chairperson, we cried so much that our tears dried. when you respond, talk about this seven per cent. These institutions are profit driven, they have unqualified staff, they have unaccredited programmes. Sometimes It is important to also look at the research output from they talk about provisional accreditations, they have both BIUST and UB, and other tertiary institutions. no teaching materials, equipment and machinery. One Create incentives for research; for instance, if somebody of my friends whom we schooled together in Political publishes a book, a journal article or engages in research, Science, was teaching Business Management at one of create incentives, make it attractive for academics these fly-by-night institutions. It is terrible. I think we to engage in research and development because the need actually a Commission of Inquiry to audit these research output is very low and it does not carry much institutions. I thank you Madam Chairperson. weight in terms of impact in the society or economy. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, In Selebi Phikwe, we are still waiting for the relocation of TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR GOYA): Thank the Department of Mining and Geological Engineering you Madam Chairperson. Let me thank Honourable (DMGE) from BIUST to Selebi Phikwe, to create Minister Olopeng for the proposal he presented in this Phikwe BIUST campus. Parliament has approved that Parliament. Motion, you said it is a process, but we need that process to be expedited. Let me first indicate that I agree with proposal he presented so that he can be given the funds he requests. For UB again, Lekalake Dispensation; there are currently Madam Chairperson, I want to say Honourable problems in the Lekalake Dispensation, in terms of Olopeng’s ministry should monitor the results of its implementation but there should not supposed to students from senior secondary schools. In other words be any problem. What am I talking about Lekalake we cannot have the same cut-off rate although a lot of Dispensation, it is a principle that in a department, students from senior secondary schools did not pass you can all become Professors. It should not be run but the budget allocated towards tertiary education is like a Government department where you say there is the same as last year’s. We should be governed by the no post for Director, it has been filled. The university numbers of students from Cambridge, we should drop set up must be operated such that if all academics the cut-off point so that we can absorb a large number. publish, do research and all necessary activities, they Madam Chairperson, I wonder how cut-off points are should be able to become Professors. You should not made in the country such that another institution can apply for professorship and be told that there are no set cut-of point at 30, 32, 34 and 36 whereas we are posts. It is unheard of in running universities. If you one? Why not give that responsibility to Honourable go to universities such as University of Cape Town Olopeng’s ministry so that they control the cut-off points (UCT), you may find one department that is manned rather than having different ones Madam Chairperson? by… everyone in the department is a Professor. I know MR KEORAPETSE: Clarification. I think in some for a fact that some academics at UB have applied for cases it is a question of quality and availability of Associate Professorship, but they have been told to wait spaces. If UB requires 40 points for Political Science because there are no posts. This is not a Government course and that you should have passed in the following department where you say we only have four principal subject, what can you do if the fly-by-nights institutions officers, three Chiefs and one Director. No, it isa want 30 points? university. If you are at the level of … otherwise, you run the risk of these people going to other universities, MR GOYA: Exactly, I want us to also control these fly- they will recruit them and give them Professor title. You by-night institutions. If the fly-by-night set their own must go to UB and ask about Lekalake Dispensation, it requirements, and the other institution sets its own there is very important. is no control in the country. What I want is that there

32 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2700: MINISTRY OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY - Committee of Supply

should be an institution which will be able to control you are talking about should be wired in a way that it these cut-off points in this country unlike the current interfaces with the Botswana Unified Revenue Service situation. At the end of the day we have to achieve (BURS) systems so that when someone starts working quality that we want to achieve in the country. That is the BURS system can be able to pick his employment what I am saying. If right now University of Botswana details. That way it will be easier to follow that person (UB) sees the quality of education we want, and sets and recover the funds and pay it back so that it can be a certain cut off points, let it be. It should not be in a used to sponsor other children Madam Chairperson. way that when UB sets a cut-off point for a programme, another fly- by-night institution will set its own cut off I also want to talk about Botswana Institute for points for the same programme. No, let us see that we Technology, Research and Innovation (BITRI); BITRI is control these things Minister Olopeng. a research institution, at the same time it is a manufacture. No! BITRI should only focus on research and let us Minister, I want to say that the funds that you are being have other institutions manufacture the good research given, the government should not bank at your ministry is has presented. They cannot be a research institution by sponsoring students with the hope that they will pay and the manufacturers at the same. Minister, stand back the funds when they start working and from there up and help BITRI to focus on research only. Madam we continue you allocate some funds to your ministry. That fund was supposed to be a revolving credit, are you Chairperson, we have so many research institutions in doing enough to recover those funds from the students our country but no funds are being allocated to research. who have been sponsored? Your proposal does not give We are not giving them enough funds to research for us any hope regarding that. I had expected to see an the country. I can tell you that developed countries income and expenditure report from your institution, and developing countries like Botswana are being that in terms of the revolving fund for the last financial developed by research. They carry out a lot of research, year, this is the amount that we have recovered from it is the driving force of their economies. Their countries young people who completed school. When a student are moving forward just because of research Madam completes his studies abroad and finds a job there, he Chairperson. We cannot compete with other countries is told to come back home to the same country where in the world if we are not taking research seriously in there are no job opportunities. Why do you not allow this country. So I request an increase on the funds which those children to work there so that when they work we are being allocated to research so that we can be able to can be able to follow them to repay the money that we thoroughly research about things which happen in our sponsored them for their education? This is what we are country Madam Chairperson. supposed to be doing instead of stopping children from working there so that they can be able to pay us. When Minister Olopeng, at this Recovery Unit that I am they pay us, they allow us to sponsor more students talking about, come up with an incentive whereby instead of using other funds which you request every the officers that are recovering can be incentivised to year from the government. Minister Olopeng, I was recover more. In fact, we should copy what BURS is saying that when students who completed studies find doing. I believe that even today BURS is given a targets jobs abroad, let them work there. Do not force them to and incentives that differ according to how much they come here because there are no jobs. For instance, when have recovered. That thing motivates people to even a student completes his studies at South Africa and get work hard so that they can recover. I personally believe absorbed in a private hospital with a salary of R43 000, that there is private sector in the country which can you will still force him to come to Botswana and receive recover the funds which are being owed by students who P12 000 a month, what is that? P12 000! While someone were sponsored, take the entire outstanding loan book is offered R43 000, no, let us see how we can fix this situation Mr Chairperson and Minister Olopeng. and give it to the private sector. There are businesses whose duty is to follow the debts and debtors. This duty Even to get the money back that we have sponsored, should not be done by the government, we should assign Minister, allow me to clarify something for you it to the private sector. We should give them debtor’s regarding people in this country even those who are contacts and how much we are being owed and leave working. For those who work in the country, Student the recovering process to them. From there we should Loan Management System (SLMS) system which give them a certain percentage, out of 100 per cent that

Hansard No 193 33 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2700: MINISTRY OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY - Committee of Supply

they recover we can maybe pay them only 10 per cent, Member. Honourable Mabeo has 40 brigades, are the they give us the 90 per cent. Madam Chairperson and children who you are talking about not the ones who Minister Olopeng, we can only manage to recover these will have to go and do technical training at brigades, funds if we can do that. That is all that I wanted to say. because they have went as far as Form 2, Form 3, even Thank you. Standard 7, did he also say that he will admit them?

MR MOSWAANE (FRANCISTOWN WEST): MR MOSWAANE: Yes sir, the truth of the matter is Thank you Madam Chairperson. I want to take this that I am talking about Honourable Mabeo’s children at chance and comment on the proposal that was presented brigades, they are not able to access brigades. Nobody by the Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science believes in them and they have also given up on life. and Technology. I will focus on our daily livelihoods You wonder if you failed to go to college, you failed which we wonder if we will ever find solutions to the to go to brigade and then, though I do not want to say challenges we are facing in Botswana. We have a it that way, you end up drilling with soldiers the whole proper procedure from primary education to secondary. day. If you find yourself unfortunate at Junior Certificate or Cambridge, let me call it that way, your life ends when HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!) … you do not do well at those levels. You do not have a MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR farm, you did not do well as school, you will not harvest PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT anything. (MR MABEO): Clarification. Thank you Madam Chairperson. Thank you Honourable Moswaane. I do Minister, like my fellow Honourable Member has not remember well if Honourable Moswaane was here already mentioned the technical colleges, your colleges when I was presenting because I said in my Committee are very big, taking Francistown College of Technical of Supply speech that I have increased enrolment of and Vocational Education (FCTVE) at Francistown students at brigades from the normal 10 000 up to 20 as an example. Minister, this college has a carrying 000. He is now saying the children are at home useless. capacity of 2500 students but it has been admitting less I wanted to let you know that we have increased the than 500 students in the past years. The major concern number. is that it is not easy for students who completed form 3 and from 5 to be admitted there. When you go and MR MOSWAANE: Honourable Mabeo, I am here to ask what the problem could be, you will be told that the assist you in Parliament. From primary education, we budget does not permit even when you clearly know that know we offload to secondary and there are enough the proposal has been approved in parliament to go and facilities. From secondary now it is brigades or tertiary sponsor students for technical and vocational training. and they are unable to cater for the number from Minister, find time and visit these colleges in person secondary. So you are talking of 20 000, I am talking of like I know you, go and see if government services are 700 000. Check it properly. being implemented because the statistics show that out HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… of the 2 million population of Botswana, you might find that 700 000 people did not do well at school and are MR MOSWAANE: Hey! They are in search of hopeless about life. I am looking at the fact that most livelihood. What are you saying? How can they just boy children who failed secondary studies cannot do survive on Chibuku and marijuana? Ah ah! anything except to roam the streets. When they try to If I had power, I would source some funds somewhere find schools, there will be no vacant spaces and points in Botswana and build 20 brigades. It is just that, they will also not be enough. A boy child who will be good have nowhere else to go but brigade. When you go to at mechanical work would be expected to have higher other countries like Cuba, people are forced to enrol for points. You will be told that you will not be admitted if courses that will bring them income. They are looking you did not pass Mathematics even though you know at that, if they give an individual choice, he or she will how to repair vehicles. You cannot be admitted. become useless and become Government’s burden MINISTER OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, when they reach 25/26. When they reach 40, they get RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY funds from Government now as destitutes. So we have (MR OLOPENG): On a point of clarification. Thank to avoid that because if we cannot take them there, the you Madam Chairperson, thank you Honourable Government is going to continue bearing the burden.

34 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2700: MINISTRY OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY - Committee of Supply

That is what I am trying to explain that you should My concern is that we have a nation that has been trained consider that when we offload primary to secondary we at primary level, secondary level and progressing on have enough facilities, but from secondary to brigade to tertiary is hard maybe you can consult a traditional and tertiary, we do not have enough facilities and they doctor to assist you that is when you can manage. are always empty. Take Matsitama brigade for example, We need to look into this situation Minister. I know it admits only 24 trainee mechanic. Ah ah! 200 students that Government has good intentions, it is just that having applied and you cannot at least admit 100. That implementation is very slow. is my concern that our children are turning out to be useless and orphans when we have a Government. That MR MABEO: Order! Madam Chairperson, now the is what I want you to consider that we should do the Honourable Member has fixed his gaze on me but these best we can. issues fall under Honourable Olopeng’s ministry. Ask him to reduce this eye contact. Again in brigades, they are promised living allowance MR MOSWAANE: I have heard him but Honourable which they never ever get. You are told that ‘do you Olopeng has his responsibility and you also have to think the Government should do everything for you, shoulder yours and your big smile encourages me why not talk to your parents?’ Whereas the parents too. I am therefore forced to focus on you to explain continue to pay tax and they are not even paid enough my concerns. With those words, let us ensure that our and we start arguing using the technicalities of the lives children benefit from the resources of our country but of people. No, our Government has chosen to take care most of all they should get education because if they are of our people. Moreover, we will treat them for free and educated and they start suffering, we will blame them. we will provide them with free education so that they We will tell them that they were educated and therefore become a developed nation living a stress free life. they have to make efforts. However, the majority of them in our constituencies, at the villages, these children Other issues concern Chamber of Mines. Hey are intelligent, we only need to increase budget to assist Honourable Members! Chamber of Mines is a sad story. them. Thank you Madam Chairperson. It goes around contributing funds to companies and it DR P. BUTALE (GABORONE CENTRAL): Thank takes children and promises to train them for four years you Madam Chairperson. Thank you Minister for and after two years, they part ways with children citing your presentation. I want to begin my presentation budgetary constraints. When the students report that by highlighting Minister what I heard some members they were not taught well and want to progress, they will talking about, which is that, there are some institutions of be tossed between Chamber of Mines and Government higher learning that I would love to see being realigned and they will be told that Chamber of Mines has reported or being taken to your ministry. I have said it before in that it is financially constrained and no decision is taken this House that we have Institutes of Health Sciences to counter that situation. They no longer trust that they (IHS), that I have since learned from Government that will complete their courses. It seems Chamber of Mines they will be taken to your ministry. This misalignment of IHSs across the country have negatively impacted on is an endless pit where funds are misused. Minister, you the quality of education because they are completely should look into that to find if we are well represented disregarded in the Ministry of Health where they are. The there because only one person’s name keeps popping up Minister has given a very clear explanation in the past as if there is no board. When something is mentioned, that if he was to choose between buying an ambulance Chief Executive Officer (CEO) is the only one cited. We and taking a lecturer to go and do PhD, the choice has need to be mindful of that. already been made, because his main issue is providing health care services. So please hasten to make sure that We should try by all means to increase brigades’ facilities you implement that resolution because our IHSs, more and atleast use our funds on them. The reason why it especially the one that holds in my constituency is in a is said that Zimbabweans are educated is because they very worrying situation or condition. I have articulated the issues thereof before in this House. have access to tertiary, brigade, whatever. Everyone gets an opportunity to go to tertiary. Batswana can be taught There is also the Roads Training Centre in Maruapula, knitting, can be trained in mechanics, electrical skills which the staff there has been in limbo for a long time, and so on but our facilities are not up to standard and I because they were told at one point that they are being ask that we increase them in number. transferred to Botswana International University of

Hansard No 193 35 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2700: MINISTRY OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY - Committee of Supply

Science and Technology (BIUST). Minister Mokaila projects, that still cannot get funding to pursue their who was there in the past said, now they are considering research. So, I think you need to rethink your approach taking them to your ministry. So follow up and tell me and even your appreciation of what a knowledge based next time or when you respond where these issues are economy is, and what kind of skills sets that knowledge because it is grossly unfair to keep members of staff in based economy is going to require. such uncertainty because they cannot even plan their lives. They do not know where they belong. I think in Madam Chairperson, I want to speak about Tertiary Education. I want to zoom in on the University of terms of policy, the attention that they get and resources, Botswana (UB), because it falls in my constituency it is also reflected that you have indeed forgotten about and the issues thereof are very painful to see that this them in the whole governance system. Government seems to be hell-bent on ensuring that this I also want Madam Chairperson to agree with the pride of Batswana, this institution that came about from Minister that indeed the Botswana Qualifications a huge sacrifice by Batswana, even the ones that had Authority (BQA) mandate is too broad or to go with nothing contributed the little that they had. It seems your chosen words, overloaded. I agree and I think that very clear, that your Government is hell-bent on seeing this whole issue is a crisis for me. The fact that we have the end of the UB. I will tell you why; today we talk young people who are being given very questionable about financial constraints at the UB, and your assistant spoke to us and told us that you are unable to execute tuition in our schools, the quality and the standard of the or implement some directives that talk about salary courses that we give to our children, our young people adjustments in Government because the UB is facing is really worrisome. Minister, when you tell Parliament very serious financial constraints, and he says you have that some Education Training Providers (ETPs) are at no answer, you are not intending to do anything about it, various stages of registration and accreditation, I wonder and yet you are losing very critical… what you are talking about because our young people go through these bogus institutions, they lose years of their HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification Dr. lives and when they come out they cannot go anywhere. DR P. BUTALE: I really hope you will not take too Minister I think you need to really reconcile this and much time. Please! treat it as a crisis, because our young people are being condemned to a very bleak future by the decisions that HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR your Government takes. TSOGWANE): Clarification. I will not derail you rather. My clarification Dr is that you use big worse to You have also alluded to this misalignment between stress your points, words such as hell-bent. Do you not the Botswana Qualifications Authority (BQA) and have soft words that you could add in your vocabulary? Professional Bodies. I am really shocked that it appears that this is a very recent discovery by yourself as a HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… ministry. It would have been only logical in my world DR P. BUTALE: Well it was just …(Laughter!)… I think that you would have reconciled the two from the word I am very limited in the vocabulary there, because I am go. The fact that you are talking about an engagement trying to show how hurt I am, and sometimes when you now when the damage is at the level at which it is today, use some of these words that is when you get attention, it is very difficult. like I seem to have gotten your attention. I want to say Madam Chairperson, with regard to Research, Science the fact that you are unable to invest in the UB, right and Technology, I want to say Minister, as the Alliance now as we speak the university has had to let go of … of Progressive (AP) we have consistently said in this to my knowledge, the only Hematologist that is there in House that, we are not investing adequately in research. this country. You have had to let go of the Hematologist We talk very casually about transforming to a knowledge because you want his salary to be used to pay a couple of lectures, and you talking about medical school at the economy, yet we do not follow that up in terms of the UB, research and about knowledge economy, yet you investment in research and technology. We still have are unable and unwilling to invest in the right skills sets. today, students that have difficulties in just acquiring research permits in the sciences, they still go through Today when we talk here, we are talking about so much difficulty to get those things. There are still infrastructure at the UB that has not been maintained students in the sciences for example, with very unique for the past 10 years. From buildings to machines at

36 Hansard No 193 Monday 25th March 2019 ORGANISATION 2700: MINISTRY OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY - Committee of Supply

the Faculty of Science Laboratories. Some scientists HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… have been lost to UB either to Botswana International MR KEORAPETSE: Smile is just too wide. I do not University of Science and Technology (BIUST) or know what could be done about that. to Botswana Institute for Technology Research and Innovation (BITRI), because of lack of availability of MADAM CHAIRPERSON: What can we do these machines that are critical to the education that is considering that I cannot go there and check what he provided at the UB. You are unwilling to invest in it, yet is doing? you speak so casually about knowledge economy, yet at MR KEORAPETSE: Why can you not send him out the UB, which is the pride of Batswana, is going down. Madam Chairperson? You have Sir Ketumile Masire Hospital there, and if you continue in this trajectory of not providing enough MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Sir! resources to maintain these things, it will fall apart. MR KEORAPETSE: Why can you not send him out Minister, I have spoken about the failure to incentivize so that he goes and watch outside? performance at the UB, and the fact that the council resolved not to reward, not to pay the P34 million that is MADAM CHAIRPERSON: …(Laughter!)… No, just required, to pay the Performance Management System sit down, he is not disturbing me in any way. (PMS) rewards, which was taken down from about over MR SEGOKGO: Thank you Madam Chairperson. P50 million. I am saying to you Minister, if you are That is commendable to have the International Nuclear serious about retaining the skills sets that you require Security Support Plan (INSSP) in a country to be in a knowledge based economy, you will go back and reviewed. reconsider your decision on PMS and on this issue MR SALAKAE: Procedure. I thank you. Very quickly. around the salaries and implementation of the directives. I did not hear your ruling. Are you saying it is acceptable I also want to say Minister, that it is really bad, it is to watch movies in parliament just like Honourable cruel for us to be thinking that the allowances that we Molale is doing? pay students, that we cut from P1,900 to the current MADAM CHAIRPERSON: No! How do I know that mega…, that you are paying students will be adequate he is watching a movie? today. I want to appeal to you Minister that, can we at MR SALAKAE: We are telling you that he is watching least restore the allowances to at least P1,900? If we a movie. cannot increase it can we at least restore it to the P1,900, because we said we are reducing it because of the then MADAM CHAIRPERSON: You always watch your economic crisis? We have since increases salaries for cellphones. workers and for politicians, but we are forgetting these MR SALAKAE: So, is it okay? allowance. Can we please take it to P1,900? I thank you. MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Sit down. MR SEGOKGO (TLOKWENG): Thank you Madam HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Chairperson. Let me start off by speaking about the International Atomic Energy Agency Review (IAEA) MADAM CHAIRPERSON: Order! Order! You, why that the Minister spoke of, that indeed it is a welcomed are you standing? The Honourable Member is standing. development. I should think it is only proper that we do recognize the impact that the other bodies outside of our MOTION Government actually do help. ADJOURNMENT

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Thank you Madam Speaker. As you have demanded, I MADAM CHAIRPERSON: What! What is your request that this House do now adjourn. problem? Question put and agreed to. MR KEORAPETSE: Procedure. I am looking at Honourable Molale, and it seems like he is watching a The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 6:00 p.m. until very interesting movie in his cellphone. Tuesday 26th March, 2019 at 2:00 p.m.

Hansard No 193 37 HANSARD RECORDERS Mr. T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Ms T. Rantsebele, Mr M. Buti, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi, Ms N. Mokoka, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms Z. Molemi

HANSARD EDITORS Ms K. Nyanga, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms G. Lekopanye Ms T. Mokhure, Ms B. Ratshipa

HANSARD TRANSLATORS Ms B. Ntisetsang, Ms. M. Sekao, Ms. M. Rabotsima, Ms. B. Mosinyi, Ms. V. Nkwane, Ms. N. Kerobale, Ms K. Alepeng, Ms T. Motsau, Ms O. Phesodi

HANSARD LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B. B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae

38 Hansard No 193