University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Archives/Special Collections
I van Dodge Memoir
D664. Dodge, Ivan (1915-1988) Memoir 2 vols., 99 pp.
Dodge, visually impaired Bluegrass musician, discusses his childhood on a farm in rural Loami, Illinois: family life, home entertainments and holiday celebrations, his loss of sight, early musical training and influences, education at the Illinois School for the Blind, early radio programming, and ham radios. He also discusses his career in music, performances, children's concerts, radio appearances, other musicians, work as a music instructor and deejay, musical styles and innovations in technology. The lyrics to a number of songs are in-cluded in the memoir and references are made to Jimmy Rogers, Louis Armstrong, Peter Frampton, and Johnny Cash.
Interview by Deborah Brothers, 1984 OPEN See collateral file: interivewer's notes and newspaper clipping about Dodge.
Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407
© 1984 University of Illinois Board of Trustees Table of Contents
Born in Fbral hami. Farm Life ...... 1 Fducation at Illinois School for the Blind ...... 3 Early Wic Trabing/Anecdotes of School ...... 5 Family Background and Farrn Routines ...... 8 Holidays ...... 11 Aunt Hester Dodge. Early Fbsical Influaces ...... 12 Farm Life ...... 14 Family lktertaimmt ...... 17 Ehilding a Crystal Radio Set and Early Radio Programring ....17 Early Career Aspirations ...... 19 lhsical Influences ...... 20 Career Training at Jacksomil le School ...... 24 First Jobs ...... 25 First Band (bicmkrs) ...... 26 Buying First Hause in bami ...... 28 Brother and Sisters ...... 30 Street Musicians in St. Louis king War ...... 31 Playing on WLDS . Jacksonville ...... 32 Birth and First Mamries ...... 32 kmries ofLouis Rodenberg ...... 35 Life at School ...... 36 Graduation in 1936; Hand Injury ...... 42 Joins Band Called Rhythn Rangers ...... 46 WLDS Wio Spot With Prairie Sweethearts ...... 46
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Traveling Alone d With Bands Playing Radio Shows ...... 50 kaming Other Ins tmts ...... 51 Meeting Wife- to-be ...... 53
Working as a Dee-Jay ...... 55 Selling Blair Products and Playing at Prairie 'Land Opry .....59 Playing Children's Concerts ...... 60
Problems With Eyes ...... 63 Visual Mmmies ...... 66 Mabel Mge. Backgraund ...... 68 Member of American Federation of bbsicians ...... 70 Differences in Radio Programming of 1930s and 1940s and&~~ent...... 71 Playing for Special Occasions ...... 73 Mermry Process ...... 75 Howard Simns. Friend and Co-musician for Forty Years ...... 76 Jimny Rogers. Red Foley Earliest "Famus" Influence on Ivan ...... 78 Ivan as Msic Instructor ...... 80 Ham Radio as Hobby ...... 84 Preserving Past bic Styles ...... 87 New Technology and bit Innovation ...... 88 Camposing Wsic and Flrst mic Memrries ...... 90 WSSR and "Bluegrass Breakdm" ...... 92 Personalbic Style ...... 93 Ivan Dodge's Original Music ...... 95 Final Thougrhts ard Philosophies ...... 96
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Preface
This rtmuscwipt is the product of a tape-recorded interview conducted by Deborah Ekothers fbr the Oral History Office, Sangamon State University during the autmm of 1984. The tapes -re transcribed and edited by Deborah Brothers. Ivan Lee Dodge ws born July 1, 1915 in rural bani, Illinois. A forceps delivery injured his eyes at birth ard left him with partial vision. Ivan' s sight gradually degenerated until he became completely blird , in his early twmties. Ivan's parents, Ross and Mary, farmed for a living. Until the age of eight, Ivan lived in Loami, gathering eggs, paping water, listening to the victrola and learning to play harmonica. T3e continued this msical interest at Jacksonville School for the Blind, where he received all of his formal education fran 1923 until 1936. Braille wic notation and lessons Ere not his style homer, and at fourteen, he began playing guitar by ear. He later added tenor banjo, mandolin and fiddle to his repetoire. For hstfifty years, Ivan Dodge has dehis living by kis music. Jk is a piano tuner and private rmsic instructor by trade, but the real heart of Ivan Dodge lies in performing. He has been a member of several area country and folk bands, and played on countless stages and radio staths. As a song writer and performing musician, Ivan offers a merrroir full of vivid stories and detail. He has been both witness and participant to the gcowth of local country ad folk music perforrrrers ad the radio technology boom-- fran crystal sets to a mxrleting dia industry. Ivan ad his wife Nbel make their hare in herly. They are active in their church and take pride in their yard full of flowrs. Ivan frequently plays children's concerts and guest appearances on WSSR radio station's program, "Bluegrass Breakdown." Deborah Brothers ms raised in southern Illinois ad graduated fran Southern Illinois kiversity at Carbondale with a Bachelor's Degree in Ch- ad Photography. She received a Master of Arts in Carmunication fran Sargamon State kiversity in 1985. She is active in researching and documenting the experiences of visual and performing artists.
Readers of the oral history mmir should bear in mid that it is a transcript of the spoken mrd, and that the intervier, narrator and editor sought to preserve the informal, conversational style that is inherent: in such historical sources. Sangartxm State University is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the mamir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.
The manuscript may be read, quoted ad cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mchanical, withaut permission in writing Erm the Oral History Office, Sangamon State University, Springfield, Illinois, 62708. Ivan Dodge's original rmsic on the tapes is protected by copyright law. It may be enjoyed by listening to the tapes, homer, any requests to reproduce or use it armst be directed to the composer.
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Dodge, Fall 1984, Waverly, Illinois. Deborah Brothers , Interviewr .
Q: Ivan, muld you tell ne there you =re born? A: At bami, Illhis.
Q: 01 a farm? A: Yes, it ms on a farm. Q: Rural Route?
A: Rural Route b.
Q: And *en w that? A: July lst, 1915.
Q: How long did you live on the farm? A: I lived there £ran that date until about 1936.
Q: With your parents, both parents? A: (long pause)
Q: Or ytxlr ma? (pause) bm and dad? A: Yea.
Q: Did you have brothers or sisters? A: Well I had--- sisters. Ard then a half-brother . Q: Wethey younger or older? A: My sisters are younger, ~11they all three are punger than I am. My father died. My mthe~remrried. Ad so my younger brother, he ws their child, my mother and step- father. Q: Yes. Did you have particular chores to do vhen you were a little kid on the farm?
A: Yes, oh yes. I used to pnnp water for the stock and pt out feed.
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Q: Did yrm have a lot of cows or pigs? A: Fbstly hogs. FJe never had so many cows as vie did hogs.
Q: Yes? 'Ihey -11 real good. (laughs)
A: Oh yes, I haw. (laughs)
Q: So did you have to slop h,give them food and stuff? A: Yes.
Q: You could see then catldn' t you? 01: had partial sight? A: I had partial vision. Q: So, you hew *en to stay amy £ran the big pigs? You bet. I never got in there with the big hogs anywy. I've heard stories here they can really tear -body up. Yes, I wtxlld say. Did you have other things to do besides that? Well, I used to help with the chickens too, yuu know. Collect eggs? Yes. Did pu ever get pecked? A: k,not too rmch. (laughter) I got flogged a couple of times fran the chickens, hens. I'll tell p,they're very sensitive about wing their chickens, I found that out. Q: How did ycru find that out? A: kll, I just ms picking up a chicken to look at it one day, the hens didn't like the idea at all. Q: Md it peck you?
A: Did it ever. It flew all aver E too. (laughs)
Q: Did you have any other animals on the farm? A: bk hd horses. Q: Did you ride?
A: Yes, some. And then, I used to go visit my uncle in the smmrtim,
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Dodge 3
down here at Waverly . My cowin had a pony. I got to *we I could ride it.
Q: htkind was it, a Shetland?
A: Shetland. But you know, the hything, it muld let TE catch it &en it ddn't my cousin.
Q: So it likd you better than yow cousin. (laws)
A: Well, I don't how hther it MAS that, or vhether it sensed there ms somthing wrong with my eyes, or something, you know. Anhals can sense things like that.
Q: Yes. Wll when you say that yau had partial sight, you man you could see colours . . . A: Colors, yes. Colors and maybe a little bit of big print, if it was real big, kt it mid have to be real large.
Q: Did the doctors ever say dy, was it like that fran birth? A: They said it ms an eye injury. he to an eye injury at birth. Ad, the eye kept, mt do you call it, degenerating for sotre reason. It kept going dohill. beof them told me that Fn time, I'd lose my si&t. So it did not care as a shock, I was glad of that. Yes.
IlPzew it wscaning. So did you learn braille?
Yes, oh yes. I got all my education in braille. Ard that was where? Illinois School for the Blind then. At Jacksonville.
So how old =re you whm you started there? Eight. I started in 1923.
Ebw big ws that place then? Hawmany students, do you know?
Three-humired and sonnething.
ewe your classes large? Yes, some of them =re pretty large as I remmber.
What did you take there?
Well of course, from the start, they started me at kindergarten
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Dodge 4
on up. And then of course the first few grades =re about like a mml school, I msm you had your reading, spellimg of course, aru3 aritbtic , and hglish, and so forth. And then after I got up a few years, they started giving us Mustrial tnxlrk of different kinds. I took bruslmking and dwrk sum. Q: Did you like making, Flhat did pumaEce, furniture and things like that? A: Yes. I kid of liked it.
Q: Glho took yau to school, how did pu get there? A: My parents took me in the car aver there. Of course I stayed there at night, it was a residential . . . Q: Oh, So you cam hcnrz on wderds? A: QI wekends about twice a month usually . Lib I told Bill [Bill kwyl a while ago, if the ather ws bad I told than not to caare after m. Well, the roads =re a little different then, than FJhat they are now. ( lau&s Q: Were they mostly dirt roads? A: They had a dirt rod as far as ktes, then of course they hd the highwy fTm there to Jacksonville, through New Berlin ad on through. had an old We1 T Ford at that tb.
E.iaw old it, about &at year? It w about a 1923.
So it w pretty new'?
Yes, it tkls a pretty new car.
What: w your favorite subject in school? I don't how. I liked English pretty mll, a lot of students didn't. Different: storiea , literature? Yes, literature. Poetry, and I kind of likd to write canpositiuns. Yea?
Maybe that's why I liked to write rmsk later, write songs. Ib yrru rawdxr ane of yasr first poems?
Let me see. I was trying to think. I rnade up sort of a comical poem. ws a real cold Spring, it ms in my and it WIS still real cold. So, (~~)I wrote this sort of satire-poem, I guess you'd call it. [Recites PO-1
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Mge
'01blow ye chilly winds of my Fhen there should be a tamer day. When each little crocus and dafydilly Comes forth, and then gets chillyl" (laughs) Saraethhg like that. I can't ranember how the rest of it tent. That ws abut the general idea of it. Q: About how old were pu whm you wrote that?
Q: That: is pretty god. A: I know the class got a kick out of it at the the. Q: So d-a taught there? Do yrxl remember teachers . . . A: kll let's see. The first teacher I had, my kidergarten teacher ws Miss Eckert, Helen Eckert. Then my first grade teacher ms Irene Fritch. my sword grade teacher ms Ehma Rainer. bw the last I heard of her, sh~was still livimg, she's over a hudrad years old, Etrma Rainer. Q: M where is she living? A: Jar:ksonville. (long pause) I don' t know tlhether she ever passed awy or not, ht the last I hew, she's getting my up there. She cane £ran Fngland originally. Q: *re did yum family care £ran? A: Well, part of than frcsn Kentucky. And I think the others from Missouri, originally.
Q: So they =re pioneer En3 of people? A: Yes, oh yes. Maybe that's &re I get that nusic at, liking bluegrass and all that. Q: ks the guitar the first instrunent that you played? A: Well, if yrxl don't count the hamnica. I used to get hmnicas for Christmas I was a youngster, they =re pretty cheap back then. I'd usually get about three or fax. (laslghs) Q: Different keys I guess. (lau&s) A: Yes. Q: So you started playing harmonica &en you =re just a little-bitty W? A: Yes, I ws just about five ox six years old, probably. Sewhere back in there.
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Dodge
Q: Were you mkhg up your ommsic then? A: No, just mstly playing dxit I heard at that tine. Q: Did pu have any nusic at Jacksonville, at the school? A: Yes. I took piano for awhile. But, I never did care mxh to read my mic. Braille nusic, pu've got to mrize it a masure at a time. You haw I mean you can't read it and play it both at the sam tire. Q: Because ywneed both hads to play. A: Yes. That's right. I feud out I could do better learning it by ear. Q: But did you take lessons for awhile? A: Yes, I tell them that, "I plays than the way that I hears than." That is just about the truth too. Q: Do you remember dm taught you lessons? A: Yes. Ethel -1. She ms a blind teacher. She ws a student there ard went on and becam a teacher.
Q: bben you first started to w3hool in Jacksonville, and you hew you'd be living there, vas that pretty frightening?
A: Yes. First--the first mnth I wuld say, wis the hardest, actually. Then after that, wild horses couldn't have kept m away, you how hat I mean, I liked it.
Q: You had a lot of friends there. A: Yes. I think that ws it. When I began to make &ids. It takes about a mnth for you to get used to everybody ad for than to get used to you* Q: Did you get into a lot of -8s there? A: Yes, s-ths. Q: Do you ramher anything in particular? A: I cdd tell pu several. (laughter) I rdrone tim that, just because they'd told us there ms not to be any beer or liquor on the grounds, me ard a friend of mine m--w used to have parties. Now they wed to let us do that on kiday nights. k had a group w called the T-GI-F club. lbank-Goodness-It's-Friday club. We'd celebrate. I& wld go out and buy same lunch meat and make sdwiches, you knaw get the bread . . . Q: (pause) You mst have been older then. A: Yes ve Ere at that tine. Anyhow, rn thought it wuld be smart to . . . = emptied up a jar of pickles, so that is all ve had. I& took this jar
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Dodge 7
down t~ the tavern and had a guy fill it up with beer. 3nugglcd it in. Oh boy* Q: Did you get caught?
A: No. No. Ohlet's see, Idon'tlaww. Iwas trying to thinkof something. I did of course, a few things like everybody else. I don't how as I ever did anything real bad. Q: Always hd your conscimce there? A: Yes. I nwer liked to steal frm anybody, for example, or anything lib that. I wis just sarre little trick like, on Hallowen maybe mnring the teacher's desk mvhere it oughtn't to be. (laughs) Sane deal 1ik that. Qle thing KE did do, trre ad another guy one th. bk had a chapel there. bk swiped, m did--borrow a guy's alarm clock. set it to go off during chapel service. ( laughter ) Q: &at did the minister do? A : They finally found out vho did it. They questioned werybody . They didn't do a dmle lot to us for that. Usually they didn't if you didn't desaoy any property.
Q: So yau wmt to school there until you ere 20? Is that right, I thght I heard p say 12 years. A: Yes. ktually, I was almst 21 because I left there in 1936, Spring of 1936. Q: So dter playimg harmonica, you picked up &it, guitar?
A: kitar. I WLS about 14 when I started that. Q: *re did you get it? A: My folks got it for Christmas. They didn't think I wuld stay with it.
Q: You'd never played before, right? A: No. 'Ihey kept asldng rrre FJhat I wanted thou& that fall, for &isms. I said, "I wmt a &tar ." Ad so, I ca~honu3 for Thanksgiving and they said, 'Well, htdo you mt?" and I said, "I still want a guitar." They said, 'Well that's the first time you ever made up your mid. You usually change your mind half-a-dozen times, you rmst wmt that pretty bad" ad I said, "yes, I do .'I So I got that. I told them I quit playing it after I mre it out. It was a little, $3.98 one that they got.
Q: %ere did they get one that cheap? A: bntgmery Ward. You could get than in those days, of course-at that tb, you could get a dlGibson for $28.00.
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Q: And now they run about dmt? A: BE cheapest Gibson is abut tm-krundred isn't it Bill, or do you how? 0: (Bill Wry) Yes, almst three-hurdred . A: That's hat I thou&t, satnething like that. Martin is likewise. That dlMartin is real qensive. I how a fried of mine got a Wtin V-18 in 1946 even, now this shows yau the difference. It ws ninety-five dollars. That same guitar today sells for one-thousad . Q: That's cmzy. A: Yes.
Q: Did ytxl start writing rmsic as soon as you started playing? A: No, oh no, see--I played swwal years where I played just FJhat samebody else had written. I don't how, I finally decided, 'k11 FJhY not?" SO, I started to write a tune or tw. I've never written a whole lot of them, but I do came up with one every once-in-a-while.
Q: I 'm going to stop wight here.
of Side One, Tape me
Q: The other day when VE Ere talking, I didn't get enough information about yous farm life. I wanted to go back ard to ask you about your parent's ms,yaur parents. I didn't ask you anything about that. They Ere kyand Ross. Yes. (long pause) Ad Ross ws pur father? Yes, ~s. You said he did . . . Yes.
How old =re ytxl?
I was quite a--I guess about the teens &.en he passed away. Yes. And your mther remarried a man . . . Yes. Patterson.
Pat texson? Yes. About 1938, along in there.
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Dodge 9
Q: bhat was his first name?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you like best about the farm, Ivan? A: Well--1, oh ynu asked m the billion dollar question. I think one thing, the country eats. (laughter) Really thou&, I could get out-in the air you haw. I could do little jobs, like help- ard.
A: Like putting feed out for the horses and things like that. Q: Yes.
A: See, now wery horse has a certain stall that they will go to. I man--ym gut the feed in that horse's stall arrd you can depend on it that he'll go there.
A: Yes. And the ones they mxk, they plt out mre feed, about twice as rrwh as they do for the ones that they're not wrking. Things like that. Those are things htyou have to bwon a farm. I could panp the mter-- of course then we didn't have mtors ard stuff like that on the farm like they've gt today. Yau had to plrnp it up by had. Q: Right. Did your horses do a lot of the mrk arourd the farm? A: Yes. Back in those days, my folks plda lot even with horses.
Q: Ard what year w this probably? A: mtil way up in the 1930fs, mid-thirties even beyond. There Ere a few tractors in the mi&borhod ht not everybody had than. Q: Yes. bw long tJould it tak approximately, do you kow, to plow an acre with a horse? A: I really don't how. I never thmght about it. I 'd probably say about anhour or tw at least.
Q: 'Ihat quickly? That is interesting. So the plows, ere they the mtal plows, or the steel plows that you held on to? A: bs. 'key Ere metal. They had several kinds, they hd d~tyou call the cultivators, like for corn they'd have three or four shovels on than, see they'd b spacd .
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Q: Yes.
Q: (pause) Ad get severdl at ome?
A: Yes. See that's why yau could go mer than pretty quick that way.
Q: Did you ever plow with the horse? A: M11, not too rmch myself, 1 couldn't see of couxse to keep than in the right, without somebody helping a little bit. Naw d~tI did do one time, they used to sbk the corn by hand too you how. And, of course they'd set the horse, my folks sm of them dd,whoever ws shucking the corn mid be in the wagon. They'd get the things lined out. All I'd have to do is to go straight forwrd with it then, I 'd drive the horse *ile they shcked the corn ~t~sin the fall. Q: That ww probably fun.
A: Yes, R didn't get to go very far, you'd just start up and they'd say "stop" or 'fdma", they'd sbk that batch of corn. Then, I 'd mean out. I used to help a little bit with that once-in-a-d-dle.
Q: Yes. I how £ran t.krat yrxl wesaying the other day, ad then ham what you've said today, it sourds like--you really like brses.
A: Oh yes. I really did, back then, 0: (Mabel Dodge) Now it ' s the guitar. (laughter)
A: Yau don't see themrmch Sept in horse shows today. It seaas odd that the horse rides in a trailer or -thing talay fran place to place. Back then, they used to plll it. (laughter) Q: That's a switch.
A: Yes, it sure is.
Q: &at was your favorite season around the farm? A: I liked fall, I still do. Fall is my favorite season. Q: Any particular reason?
A: I don't how. It's just a-seems like there is more to do or samething in the fall of the yeas. h the Earmit ms the harvest ad when they shuck the corn. Of course, bringing in the panpkins and things, and . . . Q: Did yrru came jack o'lantems? A: Ch yes, yes. (laughter) I'll tell you a fumy thhg. A cousin of mine and I one time, I = visiting them. bk m& a jack o'lantem. We was going to put a candle in it and FR coulh' t find a candle, so w got a
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Dodge 11
bunch of papers, and just plt than in there and set them on fire . . . (laughter) I'll tell pu the smke rolled out of that thing! It sure looked like a devil or same ldnd of damn with all that smak rolling out of its eyes ard ears. (laughter)
Q: About how old =re you &en you did that? A: I think= =re abut ten.
Q: You didn't realize it wld cawh on fire? A: & no, w dd. . . AS luck hd it, it didn't burn through the thing, it seems like it ddhave. Yes, e had it out in the back porch. (la.@@ Q: Lucky you had it autside. Did PUT parents Eird out about that? A: Oh yes, they fdout about it. 'Ihey didn't-they made us gut it out of course. Q: Wat =re blidays generally like? Did you spend them at the farm or did you go to a grandparent's be? A: kll, sametimes my grandparents, sornetimes--at my uxle's. Christmas wis nearly alms spent at my grandparent ' s . Which--your m's ox . . . Yes. Arad what =re their nares? Their ' s ms Werwd. Where did they live? They lived out close to bd there.
And you spent &isbras there usually? Yes.
Did yrm go wer mistmas We and sped the night?
Yes sorrratixnes. Then me-in-a-Aile, FR mld go dow to sarne of my mles' . Q: Those =re your mrm's brothers or . . . A: Well scmths it ws the Dodge Family. Q: Your dad's?
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bs. Where did they live? They lived out south of Waverly here.
EW . . . (long pause) Did ycru generally see both sets of gradparent's arourd Chrism Yes, usually. (pause) And have a big turkey dinner?
A: Well, they never had so nuch turkey as they do today, kt R had chickens and stuff, good things. It sedlike mrky at mistmas is a custom that's colme in, naw they had it at Thanksgiving, even back when I w young,but.. . 0: (Mabel Wge) Not so nuch at Christmas. A: Not so rmch at Christmas it seans like to me, in this area. Of course, they might have had it other places, I don' t know. Q: (pause) Did you raise the turkeys that you mld eat at TZlanksgiving? A: mnt usually, aunt and uncle usually raised k.
A: hle Bill Dodge, and his wife Hester. We alwiys called her "Hessie". Imidentally , she had a lot of influence on my early music too. She vaa guitar picker.
A: Yes. Uncle Bill played dolinand she used to play guitar. Q: Ad they played together? A: Yes. And then he quit playing mandolin after she died. But then . . . In fact, she's the one that I borrowd the dolin frrm to learn. Q: So s-tirnes *en you spent blidays with k,did they play? A: &1 yes. My other uncle played guitar, kleJohn. They'd always- (pause) have some little deal a-going.
Q: khy did yau say that Hester had influeme aver you more so than your mles, just because she played guitar?
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A: Yes. She sbda a few extra licks on there. She cane from Gntwky near the Tennessee border, I don't remember the tom but it ms s~l~l~vhere in kntucky . Arad so, I started out just learning guitar on my ow, you how.. . 0: (Mabel Dodge) At school, wasn't it?
A: At school, ad a Mdy of mine too w helping m out: with it. Then she [Aunt Hester] helped ne out too, like I say. She had a little extra lick that she almys got in there, and I wndered how she got it so she showed m on there. Q: Can pu describe what you man by that for people dm may not how &at "licks" are?
A: &ery guitarist if you notice, dsdifferent.
0: (Mabel Dodge) Different tone? A: Different tones, wll its like-you hit the bass like this. Say you are playing something, if you haw anything about nusic, in 214 thfor exanple--instead of just going "one-tw, one-tw" something like that see--a little back lick with yous hands. "one-ad-tw". . . Q: And you mld just st- it like, back the other wqf? A: Yes. Back, back. See, it gives you a little extra tone there, it's not the same old plhk-plank, pu how. (laughter) That's one thing about my playkg you'll £id out on different songs it varies, I like to vary my style, I don't like to . . . I can tell you a god example. Jonny Cash, me of the first records he made, he had an electric guitar player that just mt--he had a kid of hystyle, ''plunk plunk plunk plunk. " That ms all right for one song, but if pu listened to a *le album, by the time you got through that album it'd begin to get mnotonous. Q: Yes. And did he keep, he alwys did that same lick? A: Yes, that same lkk just about. If you listen to Johnny Cash's early records ym'll fird out that that's true. Ard that's d-mt I man. I like to change it a5ou.d so that it sounds different. Q: So did yuur Aunt Hessie, did she have different styles? A: Yes she did. She had a . . . Q: Anrl so she shod them to you? A: Yes. Q: Do you laow how she pickd up her nusic? A: Just picked it up £ran smof hex family, I guess. She never took any lessons, she told me that she'd never . . .
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0: (Mabel Dodge) Was she a pretty good player Ivan?
A: Oh yes, not bad! Pretty god player ad singer.
Q: Did she play other instnmmts? A: She cwld play the banjo, five-string banjo and the guitar. She sang such songs as "Baxbary Allen" and . . . Q: Oh, the old ballads.
A: Ballads, yes. I guess they just learned than fian one another dm there in the, kid of the hill district I guess it MAS like. Ran the my she talksd . She, ~11,that ' s the my they just learned than, like I said, fian each other.
Q: Wen is the first time you wer saw or heard a mmtain dulcimer? A: Well, I heard of it about mtyyears ago. I saw one about fifteen years ago here in town. A fried of mine here, Gladys Sanders her narrae is, sa~of hex folks in Tennessee sent her one--made it and sent it to her. And so she braught it over here for me to see. Q: Could she play?
Q: That's going to be nice on the tape. (leter) We talked about country eats on the farm. Can w get back to that. Wtws your favorite cauntry eat? A: Ham mat and biscuits and gravy. Mashed potatoes (laughs) and . . . Q: A lot of them, huh?
Q: Lhat kid of stove did your mm cook on? A: An old coal stave to begin with. Q: Yes?
A: Let's see, &at ms the KMUE of that thing? The Parma I think or somthing like that, old Panama coal stave.
Q: htdid it look lib? A: Well let's see if I can describe it. Kind of a square contraption with lids on the top. It had an men with a great big themter in the middle of it to tell you the twrature. And, it hd a reservoir for wter. You opened up a little trap door on the top of the stove ad that tas the place for water.
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Q: And that was for . . .
A : Yas had to fill it up by hand you know. You'd bring in water and pour in it. It muld heat that water then. Q: And then, that was just your hot water or ws that to make . . . A: Well that was for yaur hot water if yau wanted to h;ash . . . Q: To do dishes?
A: Do your dishes, yes.
Q: Did you not have indoor plding? A: No. We had a . . . Q: (pause) Did you have a well? A: Yes, a ~11ard a cistern both.
Q: What's the difference-can pu tell me exactly ata cistern is? A: The cistern is walled-up did and it catches rainmter, &re a el1 is brick-walled . 'Ihe wter runs in thxaugh the gourd see? The cistern, the mter doesn't run in thraugh the grd-if in a cistern that starts happening they go to investigate, there is a leak in it smmbre. Q: Okay. So it just catches rainvar.
A: It just catches rainwater, yes. They usually have a gutter pipe or samething running dom £ran the top of the house. To catch water. Q: I've head that rainwater is softer. A: It is. The wAl-v&er runs thrm& the grdd gets minerals in it. Q: Did your rmm and you use the different water for different things? A: Oh yes. See the -11-mter ws drinking mter and cooking mter. Your rainwater was for wshing things in. 0: (Mabel) Or take baths in. A: Take baths and such.
Q: How did yrxl take baths?
0: (Mabel) I think w have all experimced sane of that. (laughter) Q: Did you have an irdoor coal stave, &at kid of heat did your house hwe?
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A: Coal heater. The first one w? had w8 a Round Oak, they called it. Just a raurd coal stove. Awl then later got a d heater. It looM like a, oh I don' t know bw to describe it. A big tank looking thing. It WB a Z.ng mod heater. But you could throw great big pieces of md in that thing, it mid really heat up, oh boy.
Q: Can yau give rn a description of your heat the tine you ere small? A: kt's see, it was a tm-story hause, it had four roans domstaiss and three upstairs. Axld a closet domstairs and tm upstairs. The upstairs was mostly bedrooms of course. Ihe downstairs ma the living roan and the kitchen ad then a couple of spare roans.
That sods like a large he.
Yes, it WM fairly. What did your: father do for a living? He--mstly famhg and one thing ard another. (pause) Odd jobs too. A repairman? Yes. htabout your m, did she spend a lot of time doing housmrk? Oh yes, cpite a lot of it. Did you learn how to cook when pu ere small?
Sorrre. I can cook sare things, of course I'm not an qrt. (laughs) Ws that something that boys generally weren't taught, or girls =re taught mre? A: Girls mre taught cooking mre usually. A boy once-in-a-*ile dd take it up on his om sarretbs . 0: (Mabel) They do now here at school.
A: They do now here at school, yes. But then, cooking mstly wis learned at hate, I think. 0: (Mabel) Live and learn is the best my. A: Yes.
Q: Was yrmr mn a god cook? A: &1 yes, pretty fair!
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Q: I think it mid be hard to cook on one of bsecoal stoves. A: Yes, it ddbe now. (laughs) You had to watch it and not fire it up too rmch far sate things. Then you had to time everything. Bread for qle,harrvrnade bread you baksd it for an hour. Q: How did your parmts met, do you how'? A: I don't how. Q: They never talked about it? A: Not too much.
Q: QI a typical evening at hane, what did you do? A: Well, lots of tbs, my parents played cards.
Q: Any particular gaw?
A: Qh like the, what is it, 500 Rmay, ard they played a little bit of pinochle.
Q: bhat did you kids do?
A: We had some games PE sometimes played, I alwys liked one they called carwans. Q: Yes, kind of like pool? A: kthing of the sort. I used to like to play it. Oh, I liked my nusic ad they used to play the . . . 0: (Mabel) Did you ever play checkers? A: Yes, they used to like to play checkers and dom3.m~.
Q: So you kad a radio?
A: Yes R had an old battery set, the first one. k11 I made one too, I made sam crystal sets back--in those days. You just used headphones on them though. Q: How did you go about making a radio? A: Well, I fdsam instructions in a boy scout ma1. It told me haw to wind the coils so many turn see and . . . Q: Wat coils?
A: bkll you have to have a coil see?
Q: Ih you =an a wire?
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A: We11 yes. Q: (laughs) You have to get pretty basic with m about this. A: You mud a coil then they usd a little giam they called a crystal-- it was a galena rock. And it had a little needle thing that sat on it, a cat's shisker , that made the contact see? And . . . Q: (laughs) It wasn't a real cat's shislcer? A: No, it w a fine wire, fine wire. You find the sensitive spot on this crystal. How that set didn't use any batteries at all. It wrkd off of the electricity in the air for the stations. The coverage ws very lirmited . I cmld get the Springfield stations at that time, WAX and WCVS up there.
Q: bhat did they play on the stations mstly then? A: Qllllte a variety of things, but they had melive rmsic. &en the local stations had live mic at that th.
Q: So they brought performers in? A: Yes. They brought pezfontlers in, and they muld have guitar players ad things. Che of them had a--little program kind of modeled after Nashville. kqhody mted to go up there and play, wll they could go up there and get on to play and sing som songs.
Q: Wmyou say Naslwille, do you mean the Grand Ole Opry?
A: Grand Ole Opry yes, that's what I 'm talking abut. I wnt up there to the radio station a few ths after I started learning to play. Q: To listen or to play? A: To play.
0 : (Mabel) Did you have to register? A: No, no. Just go up there ard tell them. Q: So ddpu say on the radio then, they played a lot mre local and country than classical nusic?
A: Well, they played a mixture. Pop music too. Of course R didn' t have no such thing as Rock and Roll, it w~zsmstly jazz. Even swing hadn't cam in yet. htthey called "swing" rmsic didn't cane in until about 1935, along in there. Benny Goodman ard all than. Q: So jazz . . . A: Jazz was the first kird of poplar nusic I listened to. Q: Cb you rdrparticular artists?
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A: & y~slike Paul Whiteman, for example. Ad Duke Ellhgtm and Cab Callomy. Oh a lot of those like that. Q: Did yrm like that?
A: Yes I like jazz, I still do a little bit. Q: Well there are mydifferent kids . A: Yes, I think what was really poplar then ms how as "dixieland" jazz. There w.s a group called the Dixieland Five. 'Ilhen Louie Armstrong and his Hnt Five, that was the first group he had. . be(pause) he recorded for mny a year. Later though, he changed his style. He came out with those songs, '!Hello Dolly" ard 'h"and all those. Q: Pbre Ekoadmy style.
A : Brdmy, yes. Oh ard then about 193 1 there ws a brand new group cane out called the Mills Brothers. Q: (l-ter) Did you like h?
A: & yes, I still like b.The big deal back then with than, was imitating orchestra instruments. They Ere very god at it. Now later, in the late 1960's and early 19701s, they didn't do that. That: wis just the thbg that kid of plt than over, a nwelty. They started it, then other coloured groups especially startd doing that too. They ere the masters at it in my opinion. If yrxl ever get the chance, in a library where they go way back like that, find some of those Mills Brothers records, they're wrth listening to, 1'11 tell you.
Q: Wen you wxe real. small, *at did you think you wted to be when you got bigger?
A: I had several things. Of course sane of than later I realized I couldn't. After learning a little bit about autoroobiles, I thou&t I wted to be a garage 11~3~hanic.In fact I did learn a little of it, anyway. But caxs =re rmch simpler then than they are now. I don't how about these electronic ignitions and thhgs like that at all. I played a joke on my folks one time. They got a new carborator in the mail, and I just mt uut and put it on the car. So, they =re looking aoud for that new carburetor ard its box; my zrrm said, '%Well I know that new carburetor came day, *ere is it?"
I let than look, and then pretty soon, I started laughing. They hew something ms up and said, 'by son, what do how about this?" So I said, "Did you ever think of looking on the car?" So they mt out ard checked and =re quite surprised that it ms on the car already. (laughter)
Q: They had a Ford right? A: Yes. (laughter)
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Q: That's goad.
A: Yes, those old cars like that, I used to kid of know how things mrkd on than. I cleaned the spark plugs on than an3 different things.
Q: So ytxl liked doing that. A: Yes and electrical mrk. I still like to fool around with electronics.
Q: Were there other things ycrll about?
A : Clh, maybe--one tkI thought I ddlike to be a doctor. I think the reason is, I lxd a friend, one of our family doctors that I likd pretty well, that might have inspired that.
A: Wilcox. Seems like his first was Red. Anyhow, he ws a doctor at bd for myyears. But then I don't know, by the tim I got into the teens I kind of got the idea that I might like to play the guitar. I got the folks finally persuaded to get m one for &isms.
Fd of Side One, Tape Tm
A: In 1924, Vernon Dalhart recorded 'The Weck of the Old 97", and that ws sugqmsedly the first country song that ever w recorded. That got ITE pretty -11 interested.
Q: FJhat was that about, 'The Wreck of the Old 97"? A: Oh, you never heard that?
A: Don't pu haw that's the one Johnny Cash brought back here recently. 'They gave him his orders at bnroe , Virginia, said Pete, you're way behind tk." Well, mld you mt to plt that an the tape? Q: Sure, do p wnt to play it? A: Yes. I Q: Great. kll, I'll put it on pause. (recorder turned off for a rmnent) Okay. So ncrw w're just going to hear the song, 'The Wreck of the Old 97".
(Harmnica starts up, and then guitar. Ivan starts to sing.) They gave him his orders at hoe, Virginia Saying, 'Tete, pu're my behid th." This is not 38, but it's old 97 You rmst put her into Center on time.
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He turned ardand said to his black greasy firanan, ''Shave1 in a little mre coal. Now vihen rn cross that mite Oak muntain You can wtCh old 97 roll ." It's a mighty rough road bcm Lynchburg to Danville A-lying on a three mile grade. It was on htgde that he lost his airbrakes Ard p see hta jqhe made.
He was going down great, mking ninety miles an hour His whistle broke into a scream. (harmonica sounds) * w.s fod in the wreck with his hand on the throttle And scalded b death with the stem.
Then a telegran cane to Washhgton city This is how it read, 'The brave engineer that run Old 97, Is lying over Danville dead. " Now ladies you rmst take this mrning A lesson you may learn. Never speak hard mrds to you true loving husbad He may leave p,ad never return.
Q: That' s great. That is really god. I like the my you have to stop in the middle there ard play the . . .
A: ?hat is almst a duplicate of the arrangement of that song. Of course, his voice is a little higher than mine, so I sing it in a little lo~rkey but, the basic idea ms just like that. That is the my he started it out wen, that introduction I had on there, see. *re he blew on the harmonica a little bit, and hit the guitar a couple of licks. I put that in there a-psrpse to shaw you Aat it sourded like. (laughter) Q: So is this song a reference to an actual . . . A: That wis a real train on the Southern railroad. It ws wrecked in 1903, actually. And I dont t how d~owrote the song, nobody else how either, because they've had severd lawsuits over the deal. And Vernon Dalhart recorded it for Victor in 1924. It sedlike they began to get interested in collecting old ballads.
The WLS Barn Wein mago had started up along about that same time. mat got . . . Q: %is ms a program on fhradio? A: Yes, on station WLS (rocking chair creaks) in Chicago. Ard they called it the WLS Barn Dance on Sabxday night. EJow it was on before Nasbille's @and Ole Opry, about a year and a half.
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Q: really?
A: Yes. A lot of those programs began to care on at that the. The WLS Bam Danx and then Naskille's &and Ole Ogry ard-they had one dom at Wheeling, West Virginia a little later. But this is all what started what rn hear about country rmsic. Country msic was largely, oh they didn't call it bluegrass then, but it that type. Of caurse, electrical instruments wren't invented yet. It was banjos, fiddles, guitars, harrmmicas, all various . . . Q: (pause) All played acoustically. A: Yes. Nght. Ihat's right.
0: (Mabel) The best bard is a violin, mardolin, guitar and banjo.
Q: Well atis that: device arod your neck that you have on now? A: That's a harmonica holder, see that? Q: Yes. That is pretty nifty, I like that.
A: Yes. The first one I ever heard of using om like that ws a fellow by tihe name of Walter Peterson. Now he ws on this WLS Barn heI ws telling yrm about. He played the harmonica ard guitar at the sam time.
Q: So they had to care up with $-thing so that you could do that. A: So that you could do it. (lau&ter) I don't how *ether he made that thhg himself or what ht, he ws the first one I ever knew of to use one. Q: Is there any other early song--you said that song got you going. A: Yes, that song got m going on the idea.
Q: Did you like haw it sourded , or atit said or botA? A: Yes. 1 did. Ard that wm in 1924. I got my guitar in 1929 . . . 0: (Mabel) Your first one?
A: Yes, in 1929. Another thing that helped after that ws Jhmy Ragers, a singer at that th. There are tw Jinmy Rogers, one of them is still living. The one that wrote "Honeyed" and all that. You may have heard those songs. l3ut the other Jimny *es the one they called "hrica's blue yodeller . (l-ter) That inspired m. Q: Blue ydeller? A: Yes. Q: Or blues yodeller?
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A: Blue ydeller they called it. bt it ms blues songs. Oh, let IIE see. (begins playing guitar ad singing) 'T" is for Texas. 'T"'s for Tennessee. 'T" is for Terns. IT" 's for Tennessee. 'T" is for Thelma. The gal that' s dea wreck out of me. (@=ls
I£ you don't want ICE mama, you sure don't have to stall. If you don't mt me mamn, yrxl duxe don't have to stall. I can get mre mmn, than a passenger train can haul. (ydols) (laughter)
Going where the water tastes like cherry wine. Going where the wter tastes like cherry wine. This doggone Georgia tater, tastes like turpentine. (laughter atld yodelling) I'd rather drink ddywter , sleep in a hollow log. I'd rather drink mddy mter, sleep in a hollow log. Than to be my dam here in Atlanta, Treated like a dirty dog. (yodels Going to buy m a shotgun, with a big long shiny barrel. Going to buy me a shotgp, with a big long shiny barrel. Going to shoot that rder, that stole away my girl. (dels) Q: So tAey called him h blue @elk because he yodelld the blues songs? A. Yes that's sight. Q: Is that song by Jimrry Rogers? A: Yes. %t was called the "Blue Yodel Number be" (laughter) so that msthwebeen.. . Q: So he had a whole series! A: & yes, he had a lot of th. J3e was of course, a br- on the railroad train. IXle to ill health, he had tuberculosis ad had to quit his railroad mk. So he had played his guitar, but I guess he had nwer taken it seriously until he got into bad health. Soaoebdy said, 'Well why don't you go up and record?'' So he decided he muld do that. It ms smthing he could still do. In fact, one of his album he deis on the day he died. Q: My goodness.
A: Yes. by 24th, 1933 I think it was. He had an album that he recorded that day. They said that he ms pretty sick at that time. They plt a cot up in the studio at Victor, and he'd record a couple of manbers and then have to lay dom and rest dle.
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A: I heard that albm and you wuld never haw it by his singing. I hope I sing that good the last day I live! Q: (laughs) Oh boy, that is hard to believe. A: Yes. Well I'll tell p,the albthat's got it on it is the 'Train Whistle Blues" album, you'll find those facts--it is all on the cover, this infonwtion. Q: Yes. So when you tent off to school in Jacksonville, Rre you a1low.d to listen to the radio?
A: Oh yes, they never restricted us on it. In fact, I had my om radio don there. I took my little crystal set dom there, and then later on, in 1933, I got ahold of an electric set. They let me have that. It was a, I think a five tube. It ms nuch better, boy I ms really proud of that. Q: Yau pt better reception?
A: & yes. Sure, it had a dydc speaker on it and everything. Yes it ws pretty nice. By that time, they'd gotten radios pretty good by 1933, you haw what I man, pretty decent sourd. The first battery sets to cane out, you've probably seen pictures of than, they had a Imm thing for a speaker . . . Q: Yes.
A: %IE of those, -11 I don't know, mayb I could give you an imitation. (guts hands arourd mth and begins talking to sdlike old radio) 'They sod sorething like this here see, like an old, old song." (laughter)
A: Yes, sorething like that. Didn't have rruch bass, the itars sowded like they ere being played over a telephone or something ff-'ike that. Q: Ib you r-er hearing Roosevelt on the radio? A: Oh yes, lots of tin~s,kanklin D.
Q: Yes.
A: See that ms, he ms elected in 1932, he took office in 1933, yes. Q: Did yrxl listen to scm of his fireside . . . A: Yes, fireside, he ms the first president: to introduce that type of address, I think he called them fireside talks. He ms quite a man. Q: I've forgotten £ran the other day, &en did pu get out of school?
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A: 1936. Yes. Q: Wtkind of careers did the teachers generdly talk to the kids about going into when yocl ere in school?
A: kll, all the way dmthe line you might say. Law, FR had a class in c~~rmerciallaw. Of cause, industrial arts like piano tuning ad dimking. The girls took up sewing of different kids. 0: (Mabel) They called it '!handicrafts".
A: Yes. And basket making, you had all sorts of different things like that. k had ax regular subjects tm like English, algebra, history and . . Q: (pause) Hut did they give you certain courses to help make you mre self-sufficient?
A: Ftight, that's right. Things that blid people could do like I say, piano-tuning. The only difference is, w just didn't have our sight. For writing w hd to use some sort of braille . . . Q: Like with a stylus? A: Yes, a plate and stylus. Q: So d~enyou got out of school in 1936, what: did you do? A: The very first thing, I tuned pianos around the country and just did &atever I could. I gotm some brushes and things and Ihad armte. I got a We1 A Ford in the 19301s, and my cousin druve it for E. I mld go plxes and tune pianos and peddle brushes.
Q: What cousin w this? A: Uncle Bill's boy, Wayne. Q: Were ympretty close? A: Yes. Yes.
Q: k he near pur age? A: A few years youn%er, but not too rmch difference. He got killed then in Okinawa, in brld Wr 11. Q: You wxe like a hller Brwh kind of person? A: Well, sort of on that idea. But I had other things I sold, needles and things like that.
Q: Where all did you go?
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A: Springfield and different toms like that.
Q: ks the Model A pretty dewable? A: Q1 yes, the We1 A was a pretty good old car to get ardin, they me. .Q: What kid of gas mileage did you . . .
Q: Yea? A: Yes. See, it had a little four-cylinder mtor Ln it.
Q: About how fast could you go?
Q: Did you take it that fast? A: Fb. bk hew, I knew I had to take care of it. I couldn't just get another one lib these kids do days. (laughs) I didn't hot rod it, because if I burn4 it up . . . Q: That w the eruj. of yciur cax. A: Yes. Q: Were there speed limits? A: Yes. There =re speed limits, ht not like they benow. There *re a few years where you could drive almst any speed, you know. Sorrre of these cars like Cadillacs ard some of them, decars that muld go my up wer a hundred miles an haur. I say, they've limited it dom to 55, &at's the use of putting all that speed on there anyway? Q: 1 So how rmny years or mths did you do that? [have a brush route]
A: Ch, I don't how. but until the the of krld W&r 11, and then my cousin ~~entinto the army ad that m . . .
A: Yes, they drafted him and he had to go. Q: So do you remanber the atltlomcement that Rnosevelt made that said . . . A: Seems like I can, course they had a draft before the Japs hit Pearl Harbor. Of course after that, fAey exterded it right amy.
I mt into a band then, after my cousin got drafted. That was in the early 19401s, so I vast around the country with the band for a~ile.
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Q: htWS the name of the gasp? A: The "Musicmakexs", the first one.
Q: bho was in that, Ivan? A: bkll, there was myself ad a couple of guys fran Peoria--Wlter Ellison I think ws one guy's name, ard let's see, Jimq SJri&t w.s in there with us £or awhile. I don't how if he ws in that first one or not.
Q: But you played guitar? A: atitar and tenor banjo with that group. Q: What did the others play? A: k had a fiddle and a bass. Later on, one of the guys got ahold of an electric guitar and he tried to play it ard then he turnd it over to m. So, I played lead guitar then for awhile.
A: A little bit. (laughs) At that the, a lot of bands were set up that way. They ddjust have one electric @tar, he w.s the lead guy. Oh, if I can give you an example-~11, I can give you an example of &at our them song ralike. Q: Oh great.
A: The strange part of this ms, this was sort of a sad-country band, but the therre song w got from Harry Jams.
A: He had a song called the 'Wskmakers" you how. It sounded . . . (begins playLng guitar, htmmtal piece) Q: 'kat sods real familiar, that ~ldy. A: (laughs) Yes. Q: 'Ihat's nice. When yt>u said you vant all wer, where did ywu go? A: All the my fran here to Kansas City ad ard.
Q: So, did you play in clubs or bars? A: Baws yes, anphre w could get. Q: Anywhere you could get a job. A: h-re vie could get a job. We got out there, w got sponsors. FJe had a hotel ad a restaurant for sponsors. [in Kansas City]
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Q: I4-awere they? A: See, by that w got a roan there at night.
Q: So yau didn't have to pay for that. A: k. And tlxm the restaurant paid for our mals.
Q: Oh, that's good.
A: 'Iherr dutwer else m could make ms ours. Q: Yes. A: If rn got dance jobs or &atever. Q: That sounds like a pretty good deal.
A: It WB. Now m played there [Kansas City] fox awhile. 'ken the mr kid of began to break the band up arrd so . . . Q: (pause) And so sane of the people dm Ere in your band writ? A: Yes. Ad then I had to go back harne.
Q: hnyau ~ntback home, *ere did you go? A: I mt back to the folks. Then I wx~twith a, dm~mam got married the second tb, I lived with an aunt then for awhile.
A: Aunt Belle Undermod. She took care of me. She wsnever marrid.
Q: Oh yes? Ard she liked it that my.
A: CQl yes, she liked it that wy. (laughter) Q: What did she do for a living? A: Back in her younger days, she just did Imusewrk and washing. Then of course, they didn't have laurdramts and all that sort of stuff like you've got now. People wuld bring their wshimg to her, and she mld do it for than. Q: Did she have a wringer msher? A: Yes, an old-type wringer washer run by hand. I used to run it for her sameths. I helped her out all I could.
Q: Then she just hung the clothes on the line? A: h the line, yes. In fact, I bought my hare while she ms taking care of IE. She ms renting a house, so I bought a huuse then for us to live in.
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mere WS that? At bard. That was the first Weyou bought? Yes, that ms the first home I Wt. men was that? In 1939. Ebw much did you pay? Ei&t-Mrad dollars. (lau@) Really? Yes, m kidding.
That's amazing. Howbig was it? I had four rooms upstairs, it ms a split-lwel deal. kt's see, the dining roan, kitchen and the, it had a bathroan in it! kt, yau had to pwnp the wter by hand still into it, but at least it had a bathroan and a bathtub.
A: Yes. Well, that would be a seven roan house.
Q: Did you have a big yard? A: Yes, a nice yard there.
Q: About how big was it? A: About like this one I imgine.
Q: That is about what, a lot or a lot ard a half? A: A lot and a half, it goes back quite a mys.
Q: So ytxl paid $800, boy. Did your atme in with you then? A: Yes she did. She lived there until she died Iln 1944. Ad then, my folks wed in with me then. My stepfather admother rmved .
Q: Was ywr house closer to tom? A: I was right in town. In the meantime, my stepfather had gone to wrk at Allis-Mmrs in Springfield. Well . . . (long pause) he figured he'd be better off with a steady job, in the factory. k wrked there until he retired.
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Q: What did he do there? Work on the assembly line? A: Assembly line, yes, I heard him tell about pltting tanks on smof tl-E Bquipnent , tractors.
A: Yes. Q: So then they wed in with you? A: Yes.
Q: Were they gettimg older? A: Yes and then they lived with me there, and then they cehere with me in 1947. Q: To this house?
A: Yes. They lived here until Mabel ad I got married in 1955. Then they left ad writ to Riverton.
Q: You had a sister and brother, is that right? A: I have tm sisters. Q: And a brother. A: A brother, yes. Q: &at do they do, end up doing? A: My sisters both got marrid.
Q: bhat =re their nanes? A: Betty ard htty. Q: kticia? A: No, just ktty , LET-T-Y. Q: wre they twins? A: Yes.
Q: &re there a lot of twins in pur family? A: No, not too my, although my sister Betty had twins later. Q: So they got wried, do they live around here?
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A: Letty lives in Jacksonville. Her nam is Clark. And Betty lives in . . . 0: (Mabel) chathan.
Q: Ad what is her last nam?
Q: And your brother, uhat did he end up doing? A: J3e mrked for an autambile company here for a long the. Barney's Auto Parts in Springfield. I don' t how hthe is doing right now, he lives up near mago. Q: a. So you bought the hse ard what did you do while you were living there, k your aunt lived with you?
A: kll, I trial to keep things together. That WAS the the I had to go aut arrl play on the streets or anywhere for akile there, because--wrk ms had fx~get. It ms hard to get a partner, that tms my big trouble, to go with noe. Q: Because the mr ws going on? A: Going on, yes. &rerybody who ms about my age had been drafted. Q: Yes. So Aat did you have to do?
A: I just mnt out and mrked by myself then, what I could do. I wen played on the streets ad tried to make it.
Q: *re was that? A: Pbstly in the St. usarea.
Q: Ebw did you go about doing that? A: I'd get on the bus and go dmthere, see. I had a fried dom there that I ddstay with in St. Ws,East St. Wsand araund.
Q: So ycw =re a street mssician in the heaxt of downtom or where? A: Anywhere. (laughs) I 'd change my spot though, every day or tm . Q: Ws that a good aperime for you? A: C01 yes, yes I think in a way, it w not too bad. Q: Seans like youmight . . .
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A: I'd rather have wrkd for somebody, I 'd have felt better about it, but I had rn do vhat I cdd do.
Q: We. So ywu didn't have any bad experimes with that? A: No, not tOO bad, not really. Q: So, you cane back. A: Mter the mr was over, I got kind of back into the band business once again, reorganid an outfit. We mt aver to Jacksonville ad played, in 1948, over at the radio station there every Saturday afternoon.
Q: What station ws that? A: w.
Q: So yl~uhad a regular spot on there? A: Yes. Ebery Saturday.
Q: They Ere still doing a lot of live broadcasting? A: Quite a bit, even afer the w. In fact, they did mtil . . .
End of Side M, Tape Tb
Q: Ivan, do yrxl know &re yrxlr father Ross ms born? A: No. All I know is he lived arourd this area in Wezly. He is hied I think in Petersburg , sorewhere up in there. Q: Ard how about yaur mther, My? A: %e was born over at bani, wer in that area, and she's burid aver there at Sulpher Springs Cemetery at hami.
Q: Do you knaJ haw old your parents =re tJhen you ere born? A: Man ws nineteen. How old my father ms, I don't how. Q: kt he mm't a whole lot older than her? A: No, no they wesdt close.
Q: You mxe their first child, wren' t you? A: Yes, I 'm the oldest.
Q: Were you born at harne?
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Dodge
A: Yes. Q: Did your ran have a rnid-wife, doctor or both? A: They had the doctor, you how the fdlydoctor. Ard then there ms a . . . but I don't think the mmn was a mid-wife, she was just a wanan in our ne~borhoodwho came d stayed with people a lot like that.
A: Cora Lynn. We all called her "&andma Lynn", everybody in the neigjhborhod, she was grandma to everybody.
Q: (laughs) Did she help with all the births? A: Yes. She muld just go in and help anything, any sichss, she ms . . . she was another person that took in washing. Of case, they didn't have laudromats at that time, I guess a wmn could make a little living. Q: Did they [your parents] have a story abut pu that they liked to tell? A: Chthhg when I started learning to talk, they said that I started saying things backwards. lhey mld tell DE sane wrd and I muld say it backds. Q: Gmpletely hackwards?
A: %11 I don' t know, same arrangmt. (pause) They had a thbreaking me of that habit I guess. Q: Do you how of a specific vle? A: %re ww a little girl in our neighborhood about my age. C~E of the things they taught m to say, I ledto say her m. Dorothy F'it;chu vim her ~IE,but I mld say it backds, I'd say, "F'itchu Dorothy". (laughter) Why, I don' t how.
Q: Maybe you just liked to tease than.
A: kybe, I don't how why, that's before I can raaember, as far back as I can renrember is about 1919. Q: You ddhave been about *at, four?
A: Four, yes. Let's see, one of the things I can recall though, my uncle came hane Ercm World War I. km what I fiml out, that ms the latter part of Decanter, 1918, so I guess I ws about % I suppose at that time.
Q: Wat do you ranember about that?
A: I rmanber how tickled werybody was to see him cane hane. He got in there ard grabbed m up ard picked IIE up. He ww tickled to see me.
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Q: Jk gave p~a big lug? A: Yes he did, I rdrthat. Of course I didn't urderstd dwit it was all about, why there ws so uuh exitmt. Q: Did ymt have a lot of the fdly there? A: Apparently. Let's see, another thhg I r&r is Chrism of 1919. Zhe same uncle was Santa Claus.
A: Wle Barton. lhcle Barton Ibdge. Jle did then, in October of 1920. I don't know, wll, he wasn't in any battles . . . I'll tell yau a funny thing happened with him, they said. Jk got cxrer there and got on &--up to go into battle, and at 11 o'clock that rmming they declared the Armistice. Q:... %at was the first time he had had to go to the front lines or dmtever A: Yes. k just had gotten wer there ready to go into it. 'Ilzen he didn't have to go. ?hat is so lucky.
Yes. My other uncle msn't quite so lucky, he PELS in it.
bho Kas that? Tam. Tan Dodge? Yes. Did he get hurt or anything?
Yes, he got wmrded, he got a shoulder munded. He ms in the hospital for aAile. So he didn't get borne until about May, 1919. Q: Yes? Did yrm ldds aliays have saneone sJho muld play Santa for you? A: Yes. Ekery year ie used to have a Qlristl~lasdinner and they had a &risbnas tree. Sme of the family, srmebody wuld play Santa Claus. Q: Did p haw it was the fdly, or did yrxt think it w really . . . A: I didn't how the differeme, then. Oh, I don't how, I wasn't too old really, six or seven, hnI learned there really wtsn't such a thing. lhey make a big deal out of not telling kids there is na such thing as Santa Claus ard all that. Well, I don t rdrlosing any sleep dxn I fad aut t-he difference. (lqjhter)
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Q: Yes, it's not the most traumatic thing that a kid could learn. A: No, not hardly. Later on, I played it a few tks. Q: Did you?
A: C& yes. I almys kind of enjoyed it, got a kick out of it. In fact, I did it one tlme for the Baptist kchat bard. I wre colored glasses you how, I had my sleigh bell rod all that-mth- stuffed in my shirt to nuke TIE look Eat. So, I got up there and I said, 730, Ho, Ho. bnder if I could get one of you young fellers or girls to came up here and read fm old Santa. Yau how he's been out in the cold air and the fiost had got on his glasses ad he can't see.'' I got it wer that way pu haw. I had somebody care up ard read the nanaes ard pass out the presents. (laughter) Hd a big old bag and . . . Q: (pause) Saunds like a lot of fun.
A: Yes, it was. That ms in the forties, the 1940's I think, I did that. Q: You =re eight right, dwn you started school? A: Right, 1923. Q: Wdid your parents find out about the school? A: I don't elmctly how. I guess they knew about it, being close to Jacksonville here. Zhey hew about the school for the deaf and the school for the blu, ard of caurse the state hos ital and things like that. I hew about than before I went to JacksomiP le. Q: Were you educated at hane before that? A: Pb, no. My fixst 8chooling ms there at Jacksorwille.
Q: Had yau ever been away fran h before? A: No. It sas rough I'll tell you, the first mnth. After that they couldn't have dragged m away with wild horses. I got to *re I liked it.
Q: Do yrxt ranember a teacher there named, I guess really he wrkl in the print shop, nataed wsRodenberg? A: Yes, Louis Rodenberg, I sure do, you bet.
Q: Can ycxl tell UE sai~of ywur impressions of him?
A: Oh, he MIS a mder£ul man! In fact, he ent to Paris in 1929, they had saaoe kind of international conferee in braille, and he mt over there to that conference. He invented a lot of things concerning braille writing. Of course, Iauis Braille really invented the braille systm, but Louis Rodenberg inventad a lot of improvmts.
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Q: I was reading that he ms one of the fixst people to do the braille music notation a line at a tine . . . A: Right, right that's absolutely correct, oh yes. Q: Bar by bar, I guess it ws?
A: Mex bar, over bar, yes. See the my rn do that, let's see if I can explain . . . like here ddbe one masuse that wld be for the treble see, the right hand. We11 then your left hand is right below-that 's the way the braille nmusic is written see? Q: Yes, it would be lik the right hard is treble and the left hand is bass?
A: Ehss, yes. That's the way they write it. Q: Did yau kmw him, Ivan?
A: Oh yes, very -11. Q: (pause) Ws he a nice person? (la@) A: Yes, oh yes, old Louis ws a nice person. He had his ideas and you couldn't convince him any different. WIC, all in all, he a nice fellow.
Q: Did you go to school there when the swimning pool ms built? A: Yes, that was hilt in 1928 and 1929. They opened it up for use in the fall of 1929.
Q: Did you get to swim? A: Ch yes, yes. I& really tbught e had something then. Wl1 it ms. Q: Yes it ws.
A: Pretty nice pool. It was Wows ad heated, you could swim in it Fn the winter, all year arourd . Q: Did yau know haw to swim before then? A: No. I learned mst of it right there.
Q: Had ytru ever been swinmhg before? A: A little bit, paddling, ardin shallow water like in a creek or wrmAe'1:e. But, I had nwer been taught anything really abut swirrsrdng. Q: Rat. Lbn yau mt to school, =re your classes segregated by sex? A: Nil, they started out in the lmr grades, kidergarten, first and
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secd grade, boys and girls were together. Then, dusing grade school they =re segregated, boys ad girls separated. Then in high scbl, FR got back bgether again. I don't know why they did that. Q: Did anyone ever give reasons as to why . . . A: Bb, no. I don't rdrany reason. Q: Did you have a strict schadule, do certain things at certain tines? A: Yes. Certain t-s . At that time, they used forty-mimzte periods for classes, 8:30, 9:10 and so on. Q: lhat time did you have to get up in the mming? A: Six-forty-five. They had a steam whistle that blew for the different time periods. They blew that twice in the m>M,getting up time. That KELS the first tirae they blew the whistle, d they blew it twice.
Q: A steam histle? A: Yes.
Q: The kind that you plll? A: They'd plll a chain wer in the boiler house, and that blew that vhistle. Saunded smthing like a train d&stle.
Q: It's a pretty high pi~hisn't it? A: Yes, it ~n~nt(makes noise of tJhistle) s-thing like that. (laughter) Yes, that muld get us out of bed. %en the next period was breakfast at 7 :00 o 'clock. lk got out of there usually about 7 :30. Then E had until 8:30 to do dmt jobs w had to do, make our beds, any clean- up. After w got older dm~w shaved ard other good things, w'd do than at that tlme. Classes started at 8:30. Like I say, 8:30, 9:10, 10:20 I believe and so on. bk had a chapel service when I first went there. Q: Every day?
A : Yes. I dm' t think mybody could have said it ms denaminational . It just a--they had a prayer ad then e usually sang sam songs. They Ere not necessarily religious songs a1 though sometimes re did . Satnetirnes they =re ballads--I imagine SUJE of than they wuldn't allow us to s* today, 'Old Black Joe" and sane of thm. And sang another one about, "tis qtm Venice wters", like that. That ws one I liked. Oh, let s see, I was trying to think o same mre of those songs that we used to sing. A lot of them are kind of semi-classics I think. Q: Yes. Well "Old Black Joe" is a Stephen Foster song . . .
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A: Yes it is. We sqa lot of his. What ws that one I used to like so well too . . .
A: "Beautiful heanoer", yes, I almys loved that. Q: That is a pretty song.
A : You kww, I 've got a song I ws mndering if you'd ever heard, "City of New Orleans"? Q: Yes. A: I've got one wrd thou&, I 'd like somebody to tell me. Q: I've got Steve Goodman singing that. A: Have you? Q: Yes.
A: Well what does he say, I guess it's in the second part of the first verse, just before it says, 'The train pllls out from Kankakee"?
Q: "All along the Southbound Olyssey". A: Wyssey. Well that's atI thou@ it said. Well what the heck's an dys=y?
A: Yes. I ought to h,but I . . . Q: (pause) Qlyssey is a trip . . . A: A trip, oh! That's htJb~r ws talking about. Q: Exactly. An odyssey is a special trip, that has a lot of ~zleaning.
A: A special wip, yes. b11 that's htI though he said, kt I didn't how ard I as trying to associate it with . . .hrmsn't it that, wasn't it Ulysses that was alwys making than trips?
A: I remember one time the guy gave him a bag of wind and his soldiers o ed it up and it mt up in all directions. (lwter) Then I think tpfunniest one of those stories I rwember reading rru, here Ulysses mnt into a cave and he told his enmy his nae MAS "k Man". Ulysses started beating up on him or took his stick didn't he, plt it ~JI the fire and started kumhg him. Ad this guy said, '% Man will kill rre, No Man will kill me ." And the people said, 'Well if no m is with you, you rmst be by yselfI" (lwter)
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Q: Right, I rdrthat. A: I used to like to read those stories, I loved them.
Q: Mythology, those kinds of things? 'Ihose stories are nice. A: Yes. htwas that, let's see now, the Illid ad the . . . Q: (pause) Illisd ad the Qiyssey.
A: bhat was that Illiad about now? Q: (laughs) Well, it's been a long time since I read any of those, you're putting m on the spot here. This is supposed to be my interview with yat. A: (lau*) Oh I 'm sorry. I should' t have gotten into all that but I just mndered. bk got started on that, it just caare up. Q: I'll have to do extra research or samething to keep up with ym, to refresh my rmmry. A: I lave to read thou&. Q: Yes, I do too. A: I love poetry and things lik that. I guess that is why I 1ik rmsic. Q: (pause) All rQht Ivan. Now we're going to get back to the questions. (laughter) Was the atrmsphere of Jacksonville school pretty relaxed or ms it.. . A: I think it was--=I1 they =re not too bad. Of course, they didn't just let us do as e pleased, and I don't think--ell (long pause) Q: All in all?
A: All in all, I'd say it wasn't too bad. Now example on Saturdays, WE could go uptowz, E could do our shopping. Well, for that mttex, after school m the ~ekdaysif we wmted to. Q: So you Ere given pretty free reign? A: Yes. bk used to go out for dkson wekends or do whatever w mnted to. We =re not restricted in that--& ve Ere out of class, our time was pretty much our om.
Q: I was reading, looking thraugh em^ of that stuff in the T3istorical Library, and I saw s- little flyers fran, back before you =re born. I guess it was right dmn the school was first starting, in the 1800's. They gave annual concerts. Did they still do that dm you mt there?
A: I haven't heard about that for years, but they did *en I was there. Ch yes, I used t;o look forwad to that, too. In fact, I ms in on sarae of them, especially in the choruses. Now, I never did any solos that I w-er
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in the annual concert, but I did do SWE with the chorus. Of course, at that tiroe, they ddn' t have let me play my guitar. (laugh) Q: You don't think so? A; Fb. In fact, I don't rdrtoo rmch of anything like folk rmsic or country or whatever, until about 1930, 1933 or 1934. They used to have &at they called a literary society, d Louis Waller ard myself and a guy by the e of Joseph Mth-ad a couple of other guys, Anderson, EXrerett Anderson I think it was on bass, vie had a little, they called it a "hillbilly" bard then. Ard so, one of the guys in the literary society askd us to play. That brought mixed reactions. Sonae of the members in the society said, 'a,='re going hick nuw."
A: &It m played the concert mywy and htdo you how? 7lm mnths later they asked us to come back.
A: yes, they did. I guess as a dole, it produced a pretty good response. Q: beyou a umiber of the literary society? A: No, I wasn't a umber of it. As it happened, they invited the band in. k did became ttlanbers later, after that. Q: Did they have dances?
A: Yes, oh yes. Ww I could tell you sor~thingthere again. I got my first fling at poplar mic, I think that w in 1933 also. A fried of mine named Russell FammmrfA played the guitar with the school dame orchestra, kt he w.s also leaning ph. Ard he mted to change to piano rather than guitar. So he said, 'Well Dodge, I think I can do it. " Jle said, "If I help you with the chords on the popllar songs, mid you try plaring guitar with the school orchestxa?" I said, ''well, I ' 11 try it." I ww glad aftemrds that I did. Because in later years, that opened up a broader field fbr E. If sotrebody asks you if you can play, and what pu can play, ad if you can go in with a wide range of rmsic that you can play, your chances then sametimes is mhbetter.
Q: Right. So did p play sor~tirnesfor the dances?
A: ah yes. &ti1 I left school, I played with the orchestra off and on.
Q: Did you have a girlfriend there? A: & yes. 1 M tm (laughter) that I can recall. heof them died. Q: You m dxn ynu -re in school, young?
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A: Yes, ra&r young. I rdly tbu&t a lot of her. Her nane ms Alice Hammd. She died during one ~urrmer vacation, she got pneumnia sm~howor another. They say in the sumner, *en you get pnemmnia it is redly rN* Q: Wl there FRX~'t a lot of antibiotics in use then. A: No. No. See that w in 1928, I think. Sawhere along in there. And then later on, I had another girlfriend. In fact, I ~ntwith her wen after I got out of school, she ws a year or hm behind n~ in school. So I went with her, we11 lets see, w mttogether until 1939, I guess. We finally split up, FR decided we couldn't make it.
Q: was that?
Wyntress, her maiden narc ms Wyntress Ebh. Wyntress? Yes. W-Y-N-T-R-E-S- S . Well that's an unusual name.
Yes. And her last name ms the sau~as the vice-president's. (laughs) Yes, the vice-president nuw. Yes. Bush. You just decided that it msn't meant to be?
Yes. There one thing, she w not averly ford of my guitar. She did not care too umh for country nusic. Ard I didn't give it up. I didn't mt to give it up, so . . . Q: bhat did she like? A: bstly pop. Of course, rock and roll Mn't been invented yet. bhat she didn't realize was that I liked pop too, I played in bands and things. Eut she just couldn't see the cmtry music part of it. Q: Can you think of anything, like when they muld have malor special events [at the school], can you think of anything unusual or funny that happened ? A: Ull let's see.
Q: Any mishap or sanething. A: There was the time that I put the alarm clock in the organ. (laughter) Let's see if I can think of anything else. Of course, w used to have the anrwal cmerts, and the gym d-dbitions.
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Dodp
Q: ht=re those? A: They mld denonstrate &.at the blind people could do. Uke traveling rings . . . Q: &, like gymastir=s?
A: Oymnastics, yes. All of the-parallel bars and those things. Q: Did you do that? A: Yes. Q: Did you like it? A: Yes I Wrd of likd to do that. Q: It rmst be unusual, Iwas thinking, that rmst feel unusual to fly araund in the air like that, and not be able to see. I don't how, I can't phrase it right . . .
A : Yes it is, I Zaww atpu man. Clh, some of the boys got very proficient at the things.
Q: Did you go to your c-mt? A: Yes. Q: You grduated in 1936.
Q: bwmany ere in yow class? A: kt me see, I '11 have to count than. I think there =re about fifteen, if I rdrright. Q: Did pur family cane wer for that? A: Yes. Q: Did they visit the school very of ten? A: Oh yes, thy could c- quite often. I was fortmate there, in that. And, I could p hare mre often. Now I felt sorry for saw of those kids, like that care fran Wago. They'd go dom there at Chrisbms, then they muldn't get to go b until summ som of than. Of course, I guess they didn't have the trains or anything like they do day, *re they could hegtten hmbe as easy, you know htI man. I know sa~of tb wuld go hame at kistmas, then they wuld stay until sumaer. 'ken, they wid cane back in the fall and they ddn't ham until Christmas the.
Of caurse, they dmst had it madatory that you had to go ham for Chrisms. I think they shut the school dmmstly. I jmagine they had to keep a little heat to keep the pipes £ran keezhg, no doubt.
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Q: Did you feel scared or sad as you got bwards the end of school? A: I don't kww if I can say I emtly felt sad or scared, kt I will say I felt a little bit of, what is that, nostalgia or something, that it wis coming to an esd. Of cmse, there are mid feelings there, you know p are going to go in to something else, or hope you are anyway. Q: Yes. Did you do anything special personally adccnmncemnt?
A: Let rrre see. I believe I did help mite the class poem, me and another frid of mine.
Q: Do yrxl reaaember it? A:. . No.. I can't raaember too mhof it. Then we wrote up, R drew up the
End of Side One, Tape Wee
A : Yes, about the class will, E willed everything. I dontt how, one guy couldn't nearly sing a note. So e willed to sanebody else his outstarding ability to sing and dl that, I don't know. (laughter) It ms comical. Then that pan e *as talking about, it said sate- about 'With great pride, they'll all step aside, for tihe seniors of 36 , I can remember that part of it.
Q: Do you ranember the speeches, *at anybody said? A: I was just trying to wemember, it's been . . . Q: It's been a long time. A: A long tim ago, yes that's right. Q: Did you feel prepared to go on dter school? A: kll, yes, I guess I did really.
Q: Did you know what you =re going to do? A: Not exactly, no. I'll tell you for dile, I didn't do anything--I had a crippled hand, there see those fingers? Q: How did that happen?
A: Just before I left school I s-k it on a iano wire. I was helping to re-strring an old piano ard they hadn't taken t%e old strings off. Ole of tbem flipped EE on the fimger. men the string caw off of the pin, the broken coil came off of the pin, it flipped my finger. It stuck it, I didn' t think too rmch about it. It txd out, I had a bne felon.
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Q: Yes, it lwks almst like the first joint is missing. A: Mtssimg, yes that's right. Oh it vies . . . 0: (Mabel) You ws go- to school then? A: Yes I ws, I sure wis. 0: (Mabel) They took care of it then didn't they?
A: Oh yes, the doctor there took care of IE that sumar;r of 1936. Q: That was dter you graduated? A: Yes, but he mnt ahead and took care of E, he told me to cane back anymy. He said. . . Q: How long did it take for that to heal? A: Several mnths .
A: Yes, it's gram a nail. I didn't know at the time dxther I was going, ta ever be able to play my guitar again tm wlell or not. Q: You rmst have been depressed. A: &, I was. Then I got me a steel, you how a Hawaiian guitar with a slide bar. Q: rJot a @a1 steel?
A : lk they didn' t have than then. This ms just a plain one. You know, it wsn't even electric. Electric guitars didn't come in until the late 1930's an*.
0 : (Mabel) I don't think they have as goad a tone as a flat top, do pu? A: For my use I alwys used a flat top of course, for folk singing. Q: Did Jacksonville have people that helped sbdents find mrk? A: Yes, they did to a certain extent, although I think, mre so later. 'Ihey got caunselors , they nwer hEd such a thing as a counselor hen I was there, as such.
Of course, later on now they have developed this, let's see, IAW, Illinois Association of bbrkers for the Blind, I think. Now people who take stad training hr example . . .
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A: Stand training, you know to operate news stands ad fdstands, ms like that. Q: Yes.
A: Ebery once in a bile you'll see a blind person like in the past office or somewhere, I don't hw, there are several around Springfield I think. There used to be one in the courthouse up there. 0: (Mabel) In Jacksonville? A: &11, in Springfield too. Yes there ws one in the courthouse in Jacksonville. Q: Did your class have reunions? A: fJot too many. bbw they have the almmi reunion, so I guess they just ixorporated it in that. Q: Wave you been to those? A: Yes, every tm yeam they have the ald.
Q: You usually mak it wer Eor that?
A: Yes, somths.
Q: After your finger healed, &at did you do? A: I tuned pianos. I playecl a little bit in nusic. Q: Right. I remember same of that e talked abuut the other day. Was the only place you got your training in tuning pims at Jacksonville?
A: N3, I'll tell you I mt there. Then, in 1949, I wmt up to Chicago and took an extra came in it.
Q: *re was that?
A: At xhat ws then called the Industrial Home for the Blind. It was at 19th and Marshall up there. I don't think it's there anyrmre. I think they tore that all dm, they're wer on Wabash or sorimhere wer there. Q: How long of a course wis that? A: 'Ihat ws abut a three or four mnth, a brush-up course. The basic things abtkrniag I already hew. They shod m same extra things. Q: kll didn' t they hwe new machines . . . A: Yes, new e@-t then too.
Q: Yes. So E talked the othes day about sane of the things that you did duringtheW.. .
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A: Yes, I played with bands mostly dux- that time.
Q: Ard then you started to tell m a little bit about a regular spot that you had on WLDS?
A: ah yes. For about tw years I+E had that Saturday afternoon, Saturday Jamboree.
Q: And that ws your Wicmalcer band? A: b. The Wicmker bard nas out in Kansas City. Q: So tJho was this? A: The Rhyth Rangers =re the ones in Jacksonville. That ms August &ow arrd Newton Johnson and Harold Meyer and myself. Harold on the bass, August =s on the violin, fiddle w called it. Newton ws guitar player and I played mandolin, mstly . 0: (Mabel) I never knewhimthen. (la~ghs) Q: Yes. So for tw years you played in Jacksorzville on Saturdays?
A: There yes, on Saturdays.
Q: You played other places ardthough didn't you?
A : & yes. In the mantime, why I played in nightclubs and htever.
Q: Did the Rhytb Rangers travel a lot out of the Springfield area? A: Saw. Yes w traveled ardin this area and played. 0: (Mabel) Wer better conditions than what they are now. A: Yes. bk played some at a little spot wer here at New Berlin called 'The Harbor Lights". And, then down ardsouth of here, &at is it they called that place, down south of Hettick, "Silver Won".
A: South of Hettick, Illinois. Q: Oh, I thaught you said, t'heheadachel'. (laughs) A: k11, it's the same. (laughs) No, I said Hettick, H-ET-T-I-GK I think it is. Ihat 's do= ardPalmyra, dom south there. Then they had another place they called, 'Reeder Amtion".
Q: Har did you get started on the Jacksonville radio station? A: As ym how, a blind rnan started that, that was my fortaer tuning instructor.
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Q: We station you =an? A: Yes. kbart Stevenson. Hobart Stevenson, he and a guy, Milton Edge who WH in the pocery business, ard a guy by the name of Karfeyer started that station, the three of than. So I hew Mr. Stwenson. 'Ihen, my cousins kind of wanted to get on the air.
A : %e Prairie kethearts, they callad than. kby CTm and Bett Lou Jhddm w her girlfriend. So they wted a bard. I& mt dom th re to talk, they said yes, wll they'd let us an. k played one program and the response uxs good. So ME just . . . Q: (panxse) So you played with these two wmm singing or . . . A: What ws one of the ones? bk did it as a mio. What was one of the soqs PE used to sing so rmch, it was a Hank Snow song . . . (pause)
Q: Maybe it will C~IEto ym later. A: Maybe. a,of course, "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" R did that around Qlristms of 1949. See, I WM~up to Chicago ard took that course, and then I cane back and played with b. They played tJhile I was gone. Then I ca~back ard got back with than again. (pause) That one song ms, "I heYou So bh, It Hurts *It. I never dl1 Eorget that, IE did it all the time.
A fellow by the name of Floyd Tilhhad a band at that time, ard that was a real poplar song. Q: Do ymrdr it?
A: Oh yes.
Q: I30 pu want to play it? A: Yes. I'll get my guitar.
Q: (tape turned off for a minute) Okay, I 've got it band back on now. So this is, "I Lave You So bh'Ihat It Hurts"? A: "It Hwts m",yes. (begins tuning guitar and st- notes)
Q: You did this with The Praixie hthearts? A: Yes. W sang that. They sang the hammy in the back, see? Q: Okay. A: (begins to play) I love you so mh, it hurts me . . .
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Q: 'Ihat 's okay, e've got a lot of tape. A: el1 I've got to, I've pt to find sanething. (plays different chord progressions) There. That s what I'm looking for. Okay let's sta~t.
I lme you so rasch, it hrts ~~le Darling, that's why I'm so blue. I'm so &aid t;o go to bed at night, Afraid of losing you. I love you so rmch, it ktsnae Ard there's nothing I can do. I want to hold you my dear For wer ard ever. I lme you SO rmch, it hurts nne so. I lave you so rmch, it ktsme And there's nothing I can do. I mtto hold you my dear For ever and wer. I lwe you so mch, it hats me so.
Q: Ihilt's a nice song. A: Well it's . . . Q: (pause) Who wrote that? A: Floyd Tillm. He ms quite popular at that particular the. That kid of ms the start of the, you how now you'll hear the male vocalist and then you'll hear, usudly a couple of female singers in the backgrd, they =re kind of starting aut that type of nusic in 1949. Of course, w were trying it out too. Let's see, WEhad a couple of songs like that R used to do. (begins playing ard singing) Till the stars in the sky cease to shine, Till the sard in the desert grows cold, Till the last petals fall fran the roses, Ard the silver in youl: hair turns back to gold. Till the sun and the mon hide in darhess. Ard B mit for that great light to shine. Oh my darling that' s how long I will luve you, Till the end of the mrld, you'll be mine. (repeats second verse)
Q: W, you get fancy at the end there! (laughs) A: Yes. (laughs)
Q: That is nice! Do you think that, those tvm songs are what I muld call romantic . . .
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Dodge
A: Yes, I think so. Q: bhre those just the popular songs of the time or did y seek out songs that Ere like that? A: 'hey =re kind of poplar at that time, and you know, e lmkd for good ones. That is what w wnted ws good songs. We did country -icy but everything w did, R tried to get the best, in anything. bbther it ms pop or country or atever, we trial to fid . . . Q: %at do pu man by the best? A: &w wexything that is country, you've got good and bad in it. You've got s- that are hardly fit to sing for one reason or another.
A: Well I was just trying to think of samthbg that is not too rmch as a song . . . then of course you have smvery beautiful things lih w mas talkkg about that "City of New Orleans", that is a ver beautihl song. I don't know it mll emu& to try it yet though, I'd raXe r practice on it a little bit, because I just learned it. Q: ell, when you say god and bad do yrxl man mral? A: frbral yes, and rmsical quality, you how &at I man? Eke that song there, that had srme very nice hammy in it. Q: Yes. So you just sought qgality? A: Yes. Q: Did you all tend to agree on htsongs you mted to do? A: Pretty mch, yes I think so.
Q: %w long did the three of pu sing together? A: That w during a tw year period. Then my cousin had to go out on maternity leave, so she never csne back rmch anpre, she got married and then her first baby w~lsborn. She didn't caback into it too mhthen. Betty Lou stayed with us dile ard finally, she gtmarried. Her boyfrierd was werseas, then he cam b on furlough and they mt and got married out of state here, I rean d-erever he ms at. 'Ihen the boys, w played together for quite a*ile. In the =tine, this MsWler that I mentiond, dmIn Centralia, he and I went out and did same playing ad.He wmt withth one thto Kansas City. In fact, back just before the war, he was with me then, some. Q: You man in the early 1940's or during the Korean . . . A: In the early 19401s, yes. And h,in 1946 he got wried1 So he established him a, he liked to sell things like brom ad stuff, so he
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established him a brow route in Centralia. J3e still played, but he said he muld rather have his time at home with his wife, then it wasn't long they had a little girl born. J3e said he ddrather spend that time with his wife ad fmily instead of trying to go out ad play. Then I stayed on with these other guys, Auggie Brown, kwton Johnson and them. Then later on, I mt another guy about 1950, his m ws Ted Bettis. I still kind of played with i3m sarae band, Ixlt I wnt with Td kttis sane too. Ard w played together for awhile, then he died. He had leuketda. But I always wid ta keep on going.
hrhg the fifties I played dom at the Herrin station a little *ile. Dom in Herrin, Illinois. I played on the mrnings. Q: Did yw live dom there? A: No, I just boarded dom there with a friend of mine. I kept my address up here, I wuld run back and forth. Q: The call raanbers for that station . . . A: Henin is WJPF, Herrin, Illinois.
Q: Yes, that is not too far frm *re I was born and raised. A: *re ere yuu born? Q: Harrisburg. Did you ever play arourd there?
A: &1 yes, WEEQ, Harrisbng. Q: Yes. (laughs) So is that what you did mstly, play on radio stations? A: Oh yes, I traveled ardatii played where I could. Saretirnes I just . . . once in a while I ddtake off by myself even and just go off and play. Q: Yes. Wen you did a lot of traveling, did you suffer fim vhat you hear a lot of people dm do a lot of traveling suffer from? Did you get really lonesome . . . A: & yes, sanaetks. -the. I got kid of tired of living out of a suitcase too, you know. Q: Is there anything in particular about those years and expriences that sticks out in yaus mind?
A: I dm't know, I used to have some pretty fumy experiences -tines. There w one tim, I think I told you about the hs broke down, and I played hr the people on the bus. I think I had mre fun doing that than if I ddhave made my engagemnt. (laghter) You hm, things like that, that ere totally unexpected.
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Q: Do you like for things to happen like that? A: Yes, I don't misd. I've had things, one tirne, I rant to a program and they said they wre going to have a star there. I kept wndering wh~it MIS, and I got out there. What do you know, it ms m! (laughter)
Q: htprwan was WS?
A: It trkls a school program wer here you how, they got me elver here and said I w a big star, and I said, '%hatdo you man?" I got second place that night. 'Ihere ws a classical singer fran Auburn that got first place. I think she deserved it, really. She vas god. That's one thing I can say, I think, if I was ever in a contest or anything whoever wm it, they wm it. I WIS never jealous or anything lik that. Q: So bw abut Fur finger, did pu ever have any problem with it after that? A: U11, I'll show you there is one that I can't do. The orily 9,I hd to change my methods. For exanple, making this C chord, now here s the wy YQU should do it, like that see (pts hand on guitar and £om C chord) . Q: Right, with that finger on the third string. A: Yes, but I can't do it with that finger because it gets to mrkFng on that other string. So I had to take and use this finger and then put my thud^ up there see?
Q : Hght , and use your ring finger. by, that is different. A: t it r.I guess it's all in detemination, if yau mt it . . . I found wt later that I 'm not the only one that has such problems . A real professional, oh man, he is a professional, Django Reinhart, a Belgian gypsy, got his fhger--I don' t laow ðer it got cut off or what, injured in an accident. Anyhow, he can't use it, lxlt he is still one of the mst terrific @tar players oh-& is else. Q: kbn did you hear of him? A: Ch, my back in the thirties. But they had some records of his at WSSR, because I heard one of them. Django Reinhart ard a violinist, a French violinist, Stephan Grapelli and Django's brother, Joseph. I don't how who the others =re nuw, but I remarher those three offlnand. Of caurse, that Stephan Qapelli, he is a real violinist. They play mostly Psnerican jazz music like Duke Ellington, oh can they play it! Q: So you played harmonica first, then guitar. Wen did you pick up your other ins-ts?
A: k11, banjo, tenor banjo I learned to chord a little bit on it in 1932. The mardolin in 1933, and the Hadian guitar in the latter part of 1936 when my finger got injured.
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for him. And then he died, kggie died, kggie l3ram. There's not many fiddlers left here in our area anpre. Q: So you picked it up. A: I picked it up, yes. Q: So, after you botlght yaur house and came here in W;?verly, d~ydid you pick Waverly? A: &r band, most of the rest of than lived here then.
Q: That was--I need to clarify the year here, that IW &en? A: ?hat was in 1947. In fact, August Brown's widow still lives back of me here. Q: Ch really?
A: Yes. So that's how close E lived together. In fact, w used to run back d forth when he ws living. my, we'd be wer here one time, he'd play my fiddle and, I 'd have my guitar. bk 'd go over to his house, we didn't have far to go (laughter) if w wnted to practice. Q: So that's basically the reason yt>u lived in FJaverly? A: In Wavesly, yes. hami see, w too far amy frm everything, no hs service, not anythmg like that. bk had bus service to Jacksonville when I med here.
Q: Oh, Werly did? A: Yes. Q: Wen did they discontinue that?
A: In the late fifties sanetine. It ws dter I -S married. My wife and I used to go to Jacksonville wery ome in a bile on the bus. They don't have that anpre. 0: (Mabel) I've got arthritis so bad in my joints, I can hardly walk.
A: Yes, she can't mlk like she used to be able to, IE used to go places. Q: &ll, let's hear about that. J3ow did you ad Mbel meet? A: Well, naw this Newton Johnson I told you about, guitar player, used to play with us, wed--he lived in Jacksonville. k11 then, her stepfather played the violin do- there.
A: Yes. 'Ihey used to get together just for a jam session . . .
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0: (Mabel) mir=al h the hune. A: Amsical in the b.So that's how rn n~t,at one of those jam sesshns then.
Q: Wtyear did ytxl met? A: In 1954. So e got to writing, corresponding by letter. I got to go wer there visiting. So I got to where I brought her aver here a tine or tm, I think £os--v&ner roast one time e had, a family ~inerroast.
Rd of Side M, Tape Three
Q: Okay, so yrnt brought Mabel back here with you, ard yau: lbm and stepdad were living here then?
A: Yes, they wxe living here then. QE thing led to another and w decided to get married, February 13, 1954. 0: (Makl) Starting our 30th year, that's a long time. Q: Did you propose? A: I think I did. Q: You don't remanber?
Q: So there wsn't really a get4om-on-your-hees proposal? A: Ch no, no, no. I just asked her if she muld mrry me, and she said Ityes.It
Q: Did you go anydme on a ~ipafter ymgot married? A: Oh yes, -11 not Imnsdiately, but w did later. Q: mre did pu go?
0: (Mabel) East St. Louis.
A: Yes, East St. Ms. k had saw &ids do- there, so e decided to go ard visit them. Q: Did you* your guitar? A : (laughter) Oh yes, they mld probably have run rrre off if I hadn' t . Some of than played.
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Q: So what abut, I mted to ask you about the radio stations. Did pu ever mrk for a radio station other than just playing on there? A: m,rmstly that is what I did, just play on there. (pause) I did do a little bit of dee-jam, I didn't have to plt records on though, saraebody else did that. Q: Where ms that? A: 'Ihat ms at KMX, Kansas City.
A: That was back in about 1941, I ddsay. Q: Jbw did yaz get involved in that? A: lhey fotrnd out that I could talk and sing (laughter). And then, I'd just do jokes ad tell and . . . Q: Did you have a regular sbw?
A: Yes, a ~31:ningshow. 'The old hillbilly boy with his wake-=-up d get-cup show here in the early mming ." Then, I 'd play a few on the gui~and there another amoumer that if I played records, he'd pt them on for ITE see? Then the transcriptions, ad my anmmcenaents yc~z know. [the other ammxer muld read for him] Q: So what did you call yourself on the radio? A: el1 I used an asdnam as ke Irving. Oh, Lee Irving that hillbilly boy, th~&-em-upget-em-up boy, "You guys get up out of that bed, you're going to be late for mrk, and you don't want to do that.'' Q: What time did yaur show start? A: About 5:30. Yes, thy used to bethe country music real early in the mming, because farmers ddheaw it I guess.
Q: Yes. So Lee Irving, how did yrm care up with that narrre? A: Well, a guy, my English teacher for years xhen I w in school, called me "Irving" for stme odd reason. Q: Instead of "Ivan"? A: Yes. (lmghter) And so I told a guy that one time. I was playing with this little group, this Wicmaker group, ad he told rae he says, 'kit a minute. Yow middle na~~is Lee isn' t it?" I said, "Yeah. " 'You know," he says, "that's a good name for you, Lee Irving .I' So, I mt by tht for along tk.
Q: So that was your nicm?
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A: Nickname, yes. Then, 'Pete, the Lone Cowhand", that's htI vent by aver at Jacksorwille . Yes, pu'd go to Jacksomille and mbdy knew who Ivan Mge was, but you'd talk about "Pete, the Lone CdmxI,'' ~11they knew right awiy &o wetalking about.
Q: (laughs) So dm gave you that rime? A: I don't how it just kid of care about. See, my nickname ws Pete when I was a yrmng;ster. kdhere even, some people even call m Pete.
Q: Hcrw did that get started, do you know? A: My uncle didn't like the name that my nmn IE *en I was young, so he said, "If you're going to call him that, I'll call him Wheelbarrel Pete.'' Then it got shortened down just to Pete.
Now this "lone cow" business car^ Ay, they wnted, sa~people to do an E;M show one time, just an experimental one on Jacksonville. It ms WLDS ad W FM. They Ere just installing the FM and they wanted somebody to do an experimental show. So UE and fihe girls [Praire kethearts] volunteered. So this me guy said, 'all, E got tm cowgirls ard a lone cotJhand." So, they thought that was good, Pete, the bne (3dxa-d. (laughter) Q: Well, your show in Kansas City, how long did that last? A: It didn't last too long because I had to go b.The band kind of broke up, and I had to go back hoaae then. The Japs hit Pearl Harbor and that just about finished our group over there so . . . I enjoyed it really. Q: So you haven't done any dee-jaying she then? A: Dee-jaying, not nuch. kept one tbin Chicago, w had Ma, I'll tell you 1 was taking that course. [piano tuning] Of course, this MIS not on a radio station, they had an intercom up there, rigged up with a phonograph on it.
Q: Like t;odayts ''Mu&'' in the building? A: Yes, in the building. Ard in the mming, I 'd get on there and I'd, I did learn to run that record player. I 'd play the records, they had same of the wrappers labeled in braille so I could find them. I could tell jokes and throw switches and talk and, I'd have SXE characters. Oh the, "Clem Corntassle" he was always a--oh, he'd tell m I didn't shg the song right, see--Clem Corntassle see, that ms nr; .
A: So I'd say, "I guess you haw how it ought to be course me, wuld caout with sa-~real hamny version7'" o it. OE ofOf the outstarding oms ms Winter bderland". (laughter) Q: Cen you do it as Clem Corntassle?
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A: Yes. (begins st&% 0: (Mabel) Ivan, sing that hyrm for us then. A: Yes, w'll do that later, I'm going to do this now. See, I'll sing it like it ought to be, then I '11 show yrxl how this thing mrks out.
A: (sings 'Winter Woderlard" with @tax, regular style) Sle bells ring, are you list*? In 2 lane, snow is glistening. It's a beautiful sight, We're happy tonight, Wking in a wintex derlard.
Far away is a bluebird. Here to stay, is a new bird. He sings a lwe song, As E go along, Walking in a winter wnderld .
In the madow PE can hild a snm. And pretend that he is Parson Brm. He'll say, "Are you x~larried?" We'll say, 'No man. &It you can do the job ken you're in town." hter on, we'll conspire. As w dream, by the fire. To face unafraid, the plans that w've made. Walking in a winter wnderland.
(stops singing ard begins to talk as "Clem Comtassle") (Clem) "Hey Mr. Ivan Dodge sir. rJow you don' t how how to sing that there song. " (Ivan) "Now what's the matter with thE! my I sing that Clem, just *at do you think's wrong with it?"
(Clem) '!Now here, jut let ITE sbw you bw it aught to go."
(Ivan) "Oh, I don't how if they'd wnt to hear yas sing or not."
(Clem) "I've pt my sbtgun with UE here, if you don't let n~ sing, then I 'rn going to shoot you ." (Ivan) "Uh oh. %11 due to conditions bepd my control, I guess I'll have to let him do it."
(Begins fxplay 'Winter Wrderlard" as Clem. The guitar wrk is mch famier , ard the speed is increased greatly. Sings in Clm's voice. )
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Sleighbells ring, air ya listenin' In the lane, snow is glistenin ' . It's a beautiful sight, We're happy tonight. Walking in a winter mnderland . Fax away, is a bluebird. Here to stay, is a new bird. He sings a lave song, As w go along. Walking in a winter wderland . In the dersvie can kild a snowan. And pretend that he is Parson Brown. He'll say, "Air yclu mmried?" We'll say, 'No m. kt you sure got the job nhen your in tom." (fancy guitar licks, stops playing)
(Clan) '&y there Mr. Dodge. Ib you how why a slick sidewalk is like music?" (Ivan) 'k, I give up Clan. ht's the ansmr?"
(Clem) "Cause if ya don't see sharp, you'll sure be flat. (laughs) Ain't that a dilly?"
(begins playing &tar to finish song as Clem) Later on, we'll perspire, As w dream by the Eire. To face unafraid, them plans that wz- de. Wal- in a winter wderlard, Not in the springtime. Walking in a winter wrderlard, Not in the scnrmer. Walking in a winter mrderland , Not in the autalEn. (Ivan) "Autaam? What in the mrld?"
(Clem) "A-U-T-A-M-&N, don't that spell autamen?" Walking, in a winter wdexld. Cha, cha, cha. Q: (lau&ter) That's great.
A: I used to do things like that. Q: a. (laughs) Did you have than all rolling on the floor? A: Oh, -11, they'd get a kick out of it. Then I'd do one mre song or play soroe records. Of course, they hew dmt e had there in the records. I'd male up smre silly stories. (laughter) But, I had "Dilly Dodge's
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Scrapbook". 'Ihey ought to have scrapped it, but she they didn't, I '11 read you an exerpt fian it. (pretends to pick up scrapbook anl read frm it) Page 96, at the bottom and page 97 at the top. Chapter X-V-1-1-1. Called, "Dilly Dodge's Mzzy Definitions." Ad, first of all, &re is a place called "dere." Everybody says they're going, 'howhere." lk11 there ain't no such a place as that. I can prove that. Because to be no &re, pu'd have to be *ere sonewhere isn't. Another thing ='re always talking abut is "yesterday." Naw yesterday is the the &en today ws tcmrrow. And what is tamraw? Tomr>rrow is the tim dxm day will be yesterday.
Q: So yar just pull that stuff off the top of your head?
A: (laughter) Well, that was the reason they had IW do that. I could just get up there and blab off like that. Wle I was changing records I 'd cam off with sa~thbglike that. Q: I think I 'd like to take a little break here. (recorder tudoff for a few minutes) In 1955, ymgot married. How about jobs ever since then? A: I've kin3 of wrW ardin the rmsic business and the piano tuning business, just any little thhg like htI could do. bk sold Blair products here for avhile. Q: Is that like hyor sawthing lik that? A: &way, sm~thimglike that. W had shaving creams and all kinds of different things. 0: (Mabel) Cosmetks. A: Cosaaetics, yes. My wife ad I took that project on.
0: (Mabel) That ws th Blair capany.
A: hk started that in 1960. 0: (Mabel) In 1923.
0: (Mabel) 1923. A: No, we start4 the Blair canpany in 1960, my dear. Ard lcept it going until about the erd of the 1970's. Q: 'Ihat's a long time, about twnty years? A: Yes. The ca;npany got t~ where they mted bigger orders ad all that sM£, and I don't how. Of course, I was here in a little tom, w couldn' t sdbigger orders. They finally . . . then we did that, ad like I say, I
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Ibdge 60
did anything I could do like that. I still played around, anpheee I could pick up a job. I played Prairieland Opry in 1976.
Q: What was that?
A: At that time it ms kind of a little show, you know like Nashville has dom there, only on a smaller scale. Dom here, out of Westo there is a building, right on the south side of Mxlesto as pu go out of tom practically. A guy converted a sale bam over to have shows in it. I played there, started out Valentine' s Day of 1976. I played with than until October of that year, ad then I mt into the hospital for gallbladder surgery. Q: (pause) So then pu didn't go back with than? A: I didn't go back. (pause) I don't know, I guess he fdsabody he 1W better, Aile I was gone. (laughs) So, I wnt out and played some dmes then with another graup called the Unpredictables. Q: (l-) Nice name. Have you ever done special concerts for kids? bhen did yau start doing that, I man.
A: I don't how. Somewhere back in the 19301s, really. Q: Did you just start doing it . . . A: k11 at the country schools. They had country schools see, and then they wxld have these maetings every so often, the FTA, Parent Teachers' Associatim.
A: lhey ddhave little programs ad =times they muld have programs for children, ym know. Nm I like kids, I really do, I enjoy them. I think, even this mrnhg, a little three year old . . . the family had just wed into tom and she has just recently deup to au;. She carne ard sat dom on my lap this morning, just before class. Qle of the ladies came along ad said, "Is that your new bayfriend?" She shook her head, "Yes ." I got a kick out of that, that ws pretty cute. She can talk quite a bit q... Q: This is at church? A: Yes. I just really enjoy that. 0: (Mabel) When w found your little boy's tractor here, Ivan said, 'Well I'll bet that belongs to Joel. " Because he has been the only one that w here.
A: Yes, w enjoyed king him wew here too, by the way. Q: (turned the tape off for a few dnutes) What are scare of pur favorite mgs kr kids?
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A: Off-had, one I lwe is "Puff the Magic Dragon."
Q: Yes, that's a nice song. A: And, I get to go back and get some of the ones that I heard lik, "How hhIs That Ihggie In The WFrdadt' I let than do the dog barking along withue on it. Oh, things like that. Q: Do you ever sing songs for them that you hew hmyou =re a kid? A: Yes. kt's see, "Baa Baa Black Sheep Have You Any bol?" Sametbs I sing that.
Q: Jhw about, 'The Chmolate Ice-Cream Come" song. Where did that cm from? A: Red Foley . He first introduced that on the radio and I heard it. I said, "Oh, I bet the kids mld like that." So I listened in. I think I got a record of it finally, I got ahold of a record of it. Down at the radio station. Q: In Jacksonville? A: Yes, in Jacksonville. I lead it don there. I was right, it turned out to be quite a hit with all the yaungsters weqwhere. That's one I've got that very few singers that I haw of have got it. And 'little Sir kho." Q: Yes, uhat is the origin of that one? A: It was a powla song, about 1941. Abut the dance orchestras and everything played it, had different arrangmts of it. 0: (Mabel) There's another one, 'Zittle Red eon." A: Yes, 'Won't You Ride In My Little Red Wagon?" That's another goad me.
Q: Wauld ycu like to do one of those? A: Yes, *ich one wuld you like to hear do you think? Q: Well, I like 'The holate Ice-Cream Cone" best. A: Yes, everybody likes that. You laow when I was dmat that Prairieland Opry, the guy that ran the concession stad, that was one of his favorite songs, he was almys vimting . . .(starts playing) My rimmy said of I 'd be good She'd send me to the store. She said she'd bake sare gingerbread If I wuld swep the floor. She said if I wdd rdw the beds And watch the telephone,
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She mld send me out to buy A chocolate ice-cream cone. SO I did, the things she said. Ad then she desaxe gingerbread. I went out, just me alone, Ard got my cholate ice-crearn cone. Coming hare I stubbed my toe Upon a big old stone. Need I tell yau that I dropped, My chocolate ice-cream cone? A little puppy came along, And took a great big lick. So I hit that man old dog, with just a little stick. He bit IIE, &re I sit dm. And he chased me all over tom. Now I'm lost. Can't find my home. Iln account of that chocolate ice-crem cone. Ck.1 account of that chocolate, chocolate, chocolate Ice-cream cone. Q: I like that one.
A: Yes, it seans like everyone does. 0: (Mabel) Play that 'Tittle Red won" song, Ivan. A: Okay. Oh mn't you ride in my little red wagon? I'd lave to plll yau dom the street. I bet all the kids will be jealous, When they see my plapte so s-et. Hold tight till m cane to the hilltop, Then ='re going to coast: dom the hill, You and me.
Oh m't you ride in my little red won? You are my s-theart you see.
Hold tight till 'fn~cane to the hilltop, Then w're going to coast dow the hill, You and E. Oh wn't you ride in my little red wagon? You are my s~ethartyou see. Q: How important is playing in front of an audience--kll, I wss dmt I man is, do p prefer to play for a live audience as opposed to playing on the radio? A: Either one. Lbt I mean is, as long as I 'm entertaining people. Of course, I like the live dimes, I like &, the combination of both.
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Like doing a live radio show in front of an audience, mthing of that sort, I don't mid. I like it.
Q: Do ytxl have a favorite audience, a Eavorite type of dience? A: Well, I don't how. All things for all reasons. I lik to play kid's prograns, I lik to go out to nursing bsand play for elderly people, s-thing like that, I enjoy that. I think it's because I 'm bringing happiness to sanebody else, that's the big thing. Q: It makes you happy too? A: Yes, thatts what I man. It says, "if you gtve", vhat is that, smething about, "if pu give, yau get it back." Scm~thinglike that it says in the Bible. Of cmse, I am a Christian. Now I don't go adand . . . I'm not--trying here to prmte any particular doctrine or anything, bt I antelling you I am a kistian and I believe in the Christian principles, you know what 1 mean? I try to do what is right by every-body. I'm not saying I don't rnake mistakes, I do. I'm just saying that I am trying to do ht's right. Q: You go to church pretty often, don't you? A: Yes. Q: Jbw important is that?
A: That s pretty important to TE . I go twice on Sunday, and on Wednesday night, usually.
Q: We you been a rrmber of tihe church that you go to now for a long time?
A : Almost thirty years, I guess. Q: That's a pretty long time. A: Yes.
0: (Mabel) We cane here in 1955 and join& the church in 1956.
A: See that mld be, mty-eight years at least. Pretty close to thirty. See, I was going there in 1954, before I transferred my mahership over.
End of Side Qle, Tape Four
Q: When rn first spoke about your blindness, you said it was an accident at pm birth. And, I 've been thiddng abut that. I 've been wnderimg- did the doctor use forceps or something?
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A: Yes. They thought that axrehaw bseinstmmnts injured the eye, it just started an injury there. Wer the years it, seaas to have gotten mrse until my sight--well, one eye is plunb gone, see, this eye? Q: Yes. A: It got painful. It got to mlling up and very painful, and I had to have it taken out.
Q: Ch, so it's been rwed? A: Yes. But the wrst part of it ws , that's the one that I used to see out of a little bit. Q: Yes? A: Ch, that didn't bother me now, I'll tell you. I'm glad the doctor told me, he told me he said, "That injury, the way that is, in thyour sight will go ." So I 'm gl4 I knew it. When it came, I didn' t lose any sleep arer it, it was no shock, I hew it ws coming.
Q: As a small child you did have partial sight. A: Yes. Q: Did ytnu: family talk to you any about it, or how did you haw it ws different than &at other people could see? A: Well, they told rre mthimg, that I was partly blid. And I went to the doctor. Ncrw, the fixst trip, I don't remember, but I rdrgoing when I was four years old at the, Dr. Prince at Springfield. Q: Yes.
A: And they said at four, that there ws nothing that they could do.
Q: Yes? htkid of adjustmnts besides your schooling in Jacksonville did your Earmlly mike? A: I really don't how, other than the schooling, I mean, of course they aied to make things as god as they cdd for m. Q: Yes.
A: In wery my. hy information &y could find out, anything they could do to help. They =re willing. Hmwer, that the bad part, before I went to school, they tried to do tm much. They didn' t tarow either see, didn't Zsncrw things like that. They didn't have e schooling, counseling and all the things like they've got now, axyj I tEL tht parents Med to urderstsand . They thou&t they Ere doing rwt, and really, they =re werdoing it. Q: ney didn't let yau do as msch for purself as you should have?
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A: M, and I cane hre and they =re quite surprised. For emnple, up to the tinu; that I vent to school, I could hardly dress myself, what I man is, they just never bo~redto have re do it because . . . Q: (pause) Probably easier or satething.
A: Yes. And then *en I cane hme they wxe quite surprised that first rwrning when I got up and I cam dom all dressed. Q: It rmst hebeen a shock tx them, as dlas one to you to go avay Eran b,it mjst have been the sane my for pur mm.
A: Ch yes, it ms no doubt, it ws a shack for than. They wid to hide it & they left me at school, ht I could tell. It wmid ththat . .
Q: (pawe) Well they wren't . . . A: I think that after they saw I ws going to be pretty w11 satisfied, they felt better abut it too. Q: Did youx nmm learn hw to use a stylus or anything, so she could write you letters? A: No, no she never did.
Q: Did yau talk on the phcme?
A: Yes. Of course they hd b gp to the neighbor's to call, because w didn't have a telephone in those days, but the school had phones, of course. Q: Did you ever use a cane or a dog? A: Oh yes, I've got a cane here, a white cane. It's, I'll tell you here in a minute, fiberglass . Q: wh@n did you get that? A : Let ' s see. Right after I was married. I had a dencane before ad it got pretty w11 beat up, so I got this fiberglass one. It's a nice one, it'll last a lifetbne.
Q: Can pu explain, simply how to use the cane?
A: Well, 05 couzae the white cane, it's &it@ with red on It, see? Ad the wy I use it is I just carry it along in my hand and kind of use it to mtch for hqs ahead of re. Yau're supposed to take your cane here and do them like this.
Q: Really? Swing it right to left, or left to right, just in a circular pattern?
A: Yes, in bent of you, sort of, ad tap it on the mlk to see if there's any obstacles that wy.
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Q: Right.
A: It will let you know Fn advance. And then that too, people can see it. People are very nice. I learned sar~things frm another blinl friend, he said, "If you're in the city, ad gou need he17 at a crossing, raise that cane straight up in the air like that, so they 11 see it. When that cane goes up it will attract attention." I found out it did, it wrks very nice.
Q: So you have done that before? A: Yes. Q: Have ymever had a frightening experience, ox *re you =re lost or saraething? A: Oh, I've been lost a few times. Q: Wt did you do?
A: I just keep t-sying rn get straightened out. If I see a swted person, if one c-s along, I'll ask than to help JTE maybe. Try to get it straightened out. lChe best thing to do is, if you're lost don't try to hide it. It's better to tell the truth about these kid of things. Just say, 'Wdyou please tellm *ere I am?" or 'Which my do I go to get to the sidewalk?" or htwer. You can ask people like that and they're very nice. Q: Yes. Did ytru ever use a dog? A: No.
Q: Did you eyer mt om? A: Wll, I'll tell you the reason. kw I'm mt against them. They're nice. Iht here, they ddn't be very practical. The cost mld be mre that the benefits. Q: Wtdo you man, the upkeep of the dog? A: Yes. Yes. Now if you can get one of those dogs, you have to off to like, New Jersey ad bain than. Q: Yee. A: Fbw they're fine, a friend of mine dm is a salesman--lives in, St. Louis, the dog is very nice for him. See, he travels all the th, and walks, And it's very nice, it's wxlexful. Eut as I say now, here it ddn't be too practical. Q: b you have, a lot of visual mries? A: Oh yes. Yes, I can ramher htgem things look like, and hcrw in the sumer the leaves mld cane out and be green. The trees, I could look up in the trees ard see that, yau know. Then this tlmz of year, wll,
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Dodge 67
right before this time of year--you might say it mld have been abut last wek. h those leaves turn colors you know, in October. I used to lwe that time of year, oh that ws wderhll Q: So color is a very big part . . . A:... Yes. And I can ramikr kat red, blue and yellow, all the colors and Q: (pause) I think that is very interesting, because yaur howe is very colorful . A: Well thank you.
Q: You have these bright red slipcavexs that axe so pretty, and then all the fleers.
A: Yes, I like flowers inside. These of course hide are artificial, but E have real flowrs out &re.
Q: C& yes. They're beautiful. A: The rose of Sharon's are out in front. In the sumrrer they are really nice. The peonies are over here on this side in the comer here by the porch. (mtbns wLth are) Q: Ch the West side.
A: QI the West. Zhen w have the lilacs, purple lilacs. I want to get sclrae fall flo~rs. Maybe saae for the back yard. I'd like to get sate marigolds I think.
Q: ah, I ms going to ask you samething and it just slipped right out of my heal. I'm going to put the recorder on pause for a minute until I remaher. (recorder off) When pu meet so;rrutone, for the first th, this is probably going to sdlike a silly question, but I've just been wondering. Do ylxl get a physical description of them in your head? A: Yes. Q: Ran their voice? A: Yes. For example, I imagine pu are about, five foot, about five foot six? Q: A little taller than that. A: Five-foot-six or eight inches, derealong like that. Q: Yes. (laqjhs)
A: OE course I get a picture. 1 can tell when you're standing up, when you're talking, just about what your height ddbe.
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Q: Yes.
A: hein a fieI get a fooling. A girl will have a, wll girls in particular but boys too, a little-bitty, a dlvoice soroetims, I'll have her pictured as a little-bitty girl, and maybe she's pretty god size. (laq#ter) I w trying to think of a singer who is an example of that. I can't tihi& of it. t is r . . . Oh ~11,maybe I'll think of it pretty soon. She has a very dlvoice you laww, Tamny Wynette. I almys tb@t she ms a little-bitty girl, but I guess she's not so small either, fran atthey say, oh she's not real big ht . . . Q: (pause) When did you first notice, this ms a gradual thing with losing your sight. A: Yes. Q: bhen wld you say that you . . . [had no sight left at all] A: Abut 1940 or 1941, sanewhere along in there. Q: Ad when did you have the operation? A: 'Ihat later, about 1959, that vas after I ws married even. The doctor said, "Don't do anything about it until it gets to paining you," so I just . . . (shakes head) Q: Yoll said you etMabel in 1954, 1 wanted to ask you saw questions about her if she wddn't mid?
Q: What wsher maiden m? A: Harm. H-A-M-M, Harm. Q: And what -re her parent's names? A: finroe and, no not Pbnroe, Oscar. That was her grandpa that was finroe. Oscar and Eliza Ham. Q: Did Mabel grow up in Jacksonville? A: Yes. Q: Was she born blind also? A: W. She wrked for Swift and Company dom at Jacksonville. Seet3hed like she started up a staimy arrj, there ww a fire-door, ard satebody on the other side, they didn't know she ws caning up, they phed the door open and it hit her in the side of the head. Now her blindness is due to optic nenre danage. I don't know &at it did. Q: So she ws older then?
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Ibdge
A: Ch yes.
A: Yes,
Q: Ib yrxl know how old? A: Around 18, sanehre along in there. Q: So &at did she do then? She ms too old to go to school. A: To the school, yes. Well, they had hme teachers, one c- and twt her the braille and a few tihiqs like that. Q: Ad vihat is this Shift place yau =re talking about? A:... That w a packing canpany at Jacksonville. Haven't you heard of eat Q: & yes. Swift lunch mat?
A: hnch mtand all that, yes. They had it all. In fact they had httew even. I haw she told roe one tim about wrapping butter for than. I don't Wdc that is there any more. Q: I don't how.
A: I don't know either. They ha3. quite an operation, they had a place in tow there, d they had a slaughterhouse out in the country where they did their butchering, you how, out East of Jacksonville, Swift and Campany.
Q: So Mabel's father, Oscar, ~ikl~a msician ad that's how you rnet her, is that right? A: k11, it ms her stepfather that ms the rmsician. Q: Oh, what was his m? A: Henm= was Fred Wyer . Q: Is Eiabel a musician also? A: No. She sings sonu;. bk can't sing harmony thgh because, when w start singFng hammy if I start to take tenor, ox whatever, she'll try to sing &at I do. (laughs) Q: %at is a favorite quality htMbel has, that attracted you to her? A: I just ws, she m cpik friendly ard wll it ws just that--& her voice, and everything in general, her personality . . . Q: You hit it off?
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Dodge
A: Yes, w hit it off right my. (laughter)
Q: bthow lrmch money, on the average, do you think your bands made from playing at, say a tmern, for one night? A: Oh, of course back then, the scale ws quite a bit lower than it is now. I don' t how, sometimes five or ten dollars a night. That doen' t sew like rmch now, kt it ms then.
Q: This ddbe lih in the 19301s? A: Oh, the 1930's and 19401s, yes, LRt's see. Union scale ms $3.00 an how I think, it finally got up to that.
Q: So yrru Ere a membes of the union? A: Yes, I was a mernber of the union at one time.
Q: Wit is the nau~of that union? A: The American Federation of Wsicians . Wlt , I 'm nat Fn it now because the wrk dropped off , and you how d-mt that mans? Q: Yes.
A: Seems lik now the guys that like to play ard, pu know like E, I don't think they, any of them is in the union as mch. Q: So, ms it a real strong thing at one the? A: Well . . . Q: kaund here? A: A little bit, but 1'11 tell pu, one of the reasons, in Jacksonville when grxl played on the radio yrxl almst had to be a naembex of the don to get anything over the radio. Sanrebody could cane along and hq you off.
Q: Oh really? A: Yes. Q: Did you wex know of that happening to someone? A: No, it never happened to m. Maybe it did to sans of the others.
Q: So yrw =re, in fact, ahst forced to join?
A: Yes, that's right. QE time Idid remember, I WAS in a little bard R cam att kre and started playing and, I: wasn't in the union yet. Q: T2lis w about when?
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A: Ch, way back h about, 1948. Anyhow, the guy, he thought m *re union, so he told us he'd pay us so mh. He fdout k~ *rent t , and he cut cxlr pay down. He said, 'We're wen." He used sotne wrds I wn't use here, d said, "You're d-lucky that e even paid yrxl anything. You're supposed to belo% to the union." We said, 'Well, ve didn't it!" The only thing vie done w just, well VE mt awty and forgot about it. Q: Yes?
A: kt later on, I got into it then. I had a card in it for awhile. Back in the old days, in the l94O1s, why, this Pbicmaker bad band hd, WE registered it att as '!hillbillies", althou& w didn't play strictly hillbilly stuff. kause, if VE registered out as hillbillies, VE didn't have to go into the union. Q: Ch really?
Q: But there WIS a registration process, can pu explain that? A: If yrxl played sameubre, see, like on a radio station or anything, if you registered with any union, ell, the local, as '!hillbillies", they didn't require ycxl to join. I don't how, for sareason, they didn't want to join. (lmater) Well now, I heard something here the other day, you've heard this popular song, 'Misty"? Q: Yes.
A: W11, the wy plays by ear that composed it. They said he MIS singing it on an airplane one day, it real cloudy ad misty ad everything, and he started a ~UME@ this song. He got hane and he, mll, I don't how, I think he plays the piano or scsnething ad he played it for another guy that wrote it do= for him, and he got the song plblished and everything. Wit: he w telling that he couldn't get into the union or anything because he cddn' t read rtllsic . I didn' t know that. Of course, they nwer asked m that here. I mt in at Virden over here, I think it's 354.
A: ha1. Yes. I was a mrhr of 354 for a &ile. I 've got nothing against it as far as that goes, lxtt like I say, right now it's of no use to me anpre. If I get back into SUE great big paying job, but I don't think that is going to happen nw.
The wa this is set up anylmre, seems like *at we don't have mymore, w don't be vhat I used to call the middle-class musicians. It's either the big-times or nothing. (laughter) Q: Well you think there used to be a lot mre . . .
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A: Ch yes there ms a rniddle grourd, see? A lot of these local stations like, WEMB Springfield, now they have country records all the tb.
A: k11 back in the old days, a lot of these little stations had live talent on them. Q: Right. A: 'Ihere ws a station aver here in lhscola, WDZ, its . . .
A: Yes, it ms then. It's been roved to Decatur now. They play records all the tlsrre. kll they had a staff almst as big a Nashville, it wis almst a little Nashville there.
Q: YOU man the Grad Ole Opry? A: Yes, almost like that. They had quite a lh-up of talent of their om. Q: It sounds like that ddbe a really god way to use pur local people. A: It dd! That's why I don't derstard why it's gone out as mch as it has. And then you had in addition, ezh one of these groups had a lot of their om songs and the stars see, brought in their om songs. It ms where you heard samething different. mays, it's just a standard-- everyrtrere you turn you get the artist, like Kenny Rogers and all them. Why they're all right, I ve got nothing against them, but I'm just sayLng that mt yuu get is a . . . (long pause)
A: ?he sane thing, every station, it don't male any difference. You might as wll just listen to WFMB, or KUSA St. Louis, or whatever, you get the same lihing. Q: Do yau see that as becmhg a big problem? A: well. Q: Or just mre . . . A: No xwre than it ever has been. Q: I mean, br yrmr rmsicians especially. If everyone is hearing the sane thing all the th.
A: Yes, I wder about that too, like this little girl that is with ne now playing . . .
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Q: Yes? A: I wish that there *re mre opportunities for her.
Q: Right, t;o get on the air, you man? A; Right. kt I muldn't mt to take her into taverns or same places like that, golly. I saw enough of that. I can identify with the guy, dmt is it, Credence Clearwter Rwival? He said, "Stuck in Wai, Again." lhat song said sane- about '%by thsI've had to play where the pople sat there drunk. I can identify with that one. I've seen emu& of it.
Q: Did that used to bother you? A: &--it did quite a bit, more than I 'd like to have admitted at the time, It just, it wasn't the kid of life that I really wanted, you how.
Q: You probably would rather have people that are paying mre attention.
A: Paying paore attention, yes. Nciw the audieme yesterday WB wderf~l, for example.
Q: At the school happening? [AuIxsrn School of Folk Arts] A: Yes, they really liked it, you know. But those guys wha~they get in tkre ard get about half-loded, they don't care vhat you're playing. (laughter Q: Did you ever have anybody 'bow you off the stage or anything? A: No, I don't think I ever had them do that exactly, but I've had them ccmplain once in a *ile--that w =re too draggy or something a litle bit. kt I don't believe that they wer booted me plurnb off the stage. (laughter) Q: So ere you wer hired to play for holiday parties like &ism? A: Oh yes1 Sure, yes. All Ws, p nae it, I've done it. Thanksgiving, Hallowen . . . Q: Well since its so near Hallmeen, do you have a song that fits? A: Oh yes1 (laughter) I've got a good one for that.
Q : 1 t So this is a song that, &at ' s the narole of this song? A: Oh, I call it the "kst Song,"--there ms a guy by the name of Salty Holmes, used to play on radio station WLS, he cane at with this . . .
A: Ch, about 1936 I think to begin with. And then I picked it up, and I do scm~ad libbing in it as ylxz see when I get there. See, the second verse is mstly talking.
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Q: Okay. A: hd you can just ad lib it. Yau can string it out there. If I got a good audience, I can string it out there. (laughter) Here we go. (begins to play, gives "dcxmnicl' lau&) Was a dark ad stormy night, All the stars -re out of sight. I ws passing by the graveyard on the hill. The ghosts came out to play, I thought I heard one say, ttI got yw, I'm gonna keep you, I always will." (Fn a low gravel-voice) I got you where I want you. I'm gonna keep &re I got you. You're the one that stole my great-grandma. (lau&hs) I told you that I 'd get you, if I saw you, now I got you. You're the one that shot (hits guitar), my great-grandma. (laughs and goes back to regular voice) It ms on that very sam ni&t, tcm old tom-cats started to fight. This is how it all did sdto m, (hisses) (still playing guitar, begins to talk) I didn't like than old cats a-fighting, no sir. And I tell you I didn't like than old ghosties, neither. So I looked down at my big old feet, ad I said, "Feet, carae on, do your duty ad carry ne safely hame." Well, I let out a-running, oh I was really, oh I ms laying them dom, boy, whew! I must have been going about a Wred miles an hour. Well I looked back and there was that old ghost. £kwas a-cdng too, he was a-mmhg, hw! He mst have been doing about a hudxed mLles an hour. Well e run and E run, I expect it vies ten or fifteen Miles anyway, it sea& like that to re. Pretty soon I began breathing kind of hard. (pants) You how, kind of out of breath. I Looked back and there ms that old @st right behhd E though. And I said, "Hey buddy. I'm getting kind of tired. When are e going to sit down and rest?" Well you know, that old *st lookd at m real mean. Smoke was caning out his eyes, his nose and mth. He laughed great big he said, (gives demonic laugh) Then he says, (starts singing in low gravel-voice) "I've got , where I want you. I'm gonna Epyou where I got you. You're the one, that stole my great-grand=. (dmonic laugh and howls) I told you that I'd get ya. If I saw you mw, BOO! Now. Got you. You're the one that shot (hits guitar), My great-grardma."
Good night kiddies.
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Q: (lau&ter) I don't know bw you got through that song wltmt laughin%. Oh, that's really sanething. Lb you remher ycru first sang that song? A: Probably back in the 19401s, 1936 or the 19401s, somahere along in there. Q: lhen did you add that little ad lib part? Right fran the beginning? A: No, I kid of added it as I mt. Like I say, the bigger the audience I had, the mre I'd string it out. (laughter)
Q: Your mryis so mrderkl. Can you estimate how mmy songs you how? A: No. Don't have any idea, my up in the thousands, no doubt. Q: Yes.
A: Besldes what I laww here, I 'm songleadex at our church, and I have a god myof the hyrrns in that hymnbook--1 have to do then frm mamry, because I can't read thern.
A: I remember one minister came there to preach a revival, he says, 'That's the first time I ever saw a songleader lead withut a songbook." (l-ter) I can tell you what page mst of than are on. Some of than I can't.
Q: Lkl1 have you mrked at--rmmry exrercises or something? A: No, it's mre that I've just done that this my all my life, just that's my system fran the start. I never did just, like you say, take any memory exewcises or anything, unless R got them at school. Q: Did yau have them at school? A: Well ---just learned to rananber thhgs and, they always taught us like this. Now take your clothes, when you take thm off , plt than in the wardrobe, hang them up where they belong. You'll almys know &ere they're at. Q: Yes. A: And that' s right, I 've fdout that order-being orderly about putting away yuur things, is . . . (pause) Q: (pause) Alwys doing things the same way.
A: The sam way, pretty rmch. That wy you can get to *re you can have a pretty goal idea &ere you can go right in--I mt my suit, I can go right in ad get it.
Q: What about like, association, do you we a lot of that?
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A: Yes, association and things. Somtimes I can ramher telephone hers, if I've got sorrrethhg I can associate it with. Like a date or scm~thing. %rebody's namber maybe has got 1-9-2-4 on the d of it, -11 I think of the year 1924.
Q: Yes. The other day yau mtioned you played with, he's up there in the picture on the wall, his name is Howd?
Q: You said you played together for aver forty years? A: Yes.
Q: That ' s a long parmership. A: In 1937 we mt. And he passed amy in 1977, so that's . . . Q: (pause) So how, &ere did yau met him? A: Xhrough my cousins. They lived betwen here and MAesto. cousin lived not far frau then, so. He took UE over there and he saYs?''Now I want YOU to hear a guy. A man and his dad, they both play fiddle. I'd like for you to hear than." My cousin played a little bit on the banjo at that time.
Q: What cousin?
A: George kbble. He's dead now. Jle could just play a few chords on a banjo, you b,he vasn't a real expert at it, but he could play enough to kind of play rhythn with a violin or something. So, he and I usd to sit arbad pick a little bit together, so he took me over there, to the Sim's. Then Howard got to where he'd like, him and his dad both liked to take m places with them to play.
Q: Yes? And in the picbne, he's playing fiddle. A: That's right.
Q: Is that hthe played mstly? A: Yes. Yes. kbstly fiddle. He could play a little on the dolin, pretty good dolin player. Q: Wtabout that picture? Where is that? A: Shelbyville, 1968. He won wer there that year. Q: &, that was a contest? A: Yes. No, I don't have a mxls~he. It looks like it, they say.
Q: It does.
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A: I don't know what that is, a shadw or samething. I never did ear a mustache, I don't like them. Q: I think ='re running out of ta~.I'm going to go ahead and flip it wer .
End of Side One, Tape Five
Q: So WE *rere talk* about Homrd Sinms . You rationed his dad played too, &at ws his dad s nme? A: Henry. k all called him "Uncle Henry."
Q: How ccsae? A: I don't know, it got startd and so . . . he could really play. They played differently. Naw Howad took a few lessons on the violin, but his dad never did. He played entirely by ear. So they had a kird of different3 style.
Homd WLS very good on mltzes, for example, that ms one of his outstanding things. He could play the others. kt, he could play saole very pretty waltzes. Wcle Henry ms almw mre the hoedm and schottische, all that sort . . . (pause) Q: Yes. A: Another diffkrence, now Howard muldn' t play for a dance, but Uncle Henry wild. Q: Howard aldn't play for a dance?
A: Fb. Sme way he, I don't hmwd~therit ms due to a re digious belief or what. He jusi didn't mnt to, ht kleJ&my -Id and he'd tell--they'd want him to play for a dance, 'Well, if you' 11 go up and get Ivan 1'11 play.'' He wmted ICE on that rythym, on that guitar. Q: Yes. Well that's really hy. Did you wer talk to Howard about it?
A: Yes. I go to the sate ch~~~chhe did hhe ws living, The First Qurch of kist. It was just his belief, he . . . Q: Did he say it vas because of religion? A: Yes.
Q: He didn't think it was right for people to dance? A: Dance, no.
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Q: So he just played f.or his om enjoyment? A: (3x1 enjoyment, and entertairmmt. Ncrw he mld go to fiddler's contests, or picnics yat how. Anything like that he'd play.
Q: Well for instance, if he mt to saplace and he w playing, and wmebody would start darrcing, ddhe . . . A: Oh he would quit! Q: He really dd?
A: Yes, he'd turn his back on them, mddn't even look at h. Q: My goodness. So that happened a lot of times? A: Yes, a couple of times. E'bst places though, they invited him, they hew he ddn't and they just didn't pay any attention to it. But mw, when his dad was living, in that case they'd bite his dad instead of him. I how that, because it happad. (later) Q: Yes. Wthmus rmsicians have influenced pu the mat? A: Well . . . that's pretty hard to say, because at different periods of the-Vernon Dalhat, for ertzmrple. Bill Rintz had a Vernon Dalhart record on yesterday of the train wreck. Sorrrething about "royal palm." Of course the one I knew best ms 'The Wreck of the Old '97." and 'The Wreck of Old #9 ," I think, and a couple of others. 'The Wkeck'of Old Altoma." Q: Yes? Did he write almst aclusively about . , . A: Trains, it seemed so. A lot of then, quite a lot of songs. Q: Yes.
A : Ad then, JayRogers, of course. Q: I think w 've talked about both of these people. A: Yes. Jimay of course, was a brakanan on the train, railroad. And, you Icnow, w I telling you about those songs he wrote about, I 've got a correction to make. I thought it ason the last day he lived, but it ms tm days before he died. [that he recorded his last album]
Q: Right, yes, I ramber you -re saying that. A: Bill Eic~Ed that alhm I ras telling pu about. Zhat 'Train Whistle Blues ' album. He played tm selectiom from it yesterday in fact. 'Ihat "Down Below the knLine," and '~ssissippiDelta Blues." Q: Yes. This ws on Bill's show, on the radio?
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A: yes. mey wxe in-bemen aur mmibers, Heather ad m, yesterday see. He played records to give us a little break once-in-a-while.
Q: So he [Jhny Rogers] recorded that tw days bekre he died? A: Yes. Those tw songs, 'The Mississippi Delta Blues" and "Below the Dimn Line'' both.
Q: Well that makes m feel a little better. I could just (lau*) hardly imgine this poor man in there on the day he died, singing in the studio.
A: Yes. Well as it was, they had to set up a cot for him--he'd record a song or tw, d then lay dom and rest and caback. He had a lot of guts, I guess you'd say, to get up and do that you how, feeling that bad. Q: Definitely.
A: (Ih man, that was sorething. He uust have really luved it. Q: what other rmsicians influenced you?
A: Let Is see, Red Foley had his influence I guess on x~le some. Q: Is this in the style of playing? A: Yes, mt.I got a song that I like, Red Foley sings, about my grits. Q: Yes? Did you mt to do it? A: Yes. You'll almst have to have been in the South to appreciate this one. I really love thnse h&y grits too, boy, that's a . . . so I can appreciate this one. (begins) Pass ne them, hhygrits. And a piece of that sugar-cured ham. Give E a bowl of grits gravy. You're looking at a happy man. I can see magnolias, d azaleas in bloan. Let me up at that table, give me lots of elbow man. Ad pass me than, my-£rid-hoe-cakes, Good old black-eyed peas. Give me a hayrack full of biscuits, Make my coffee black if you please. If yw fed m, ala Dixie In a style so grand b're going to have yourself A mtghw ~PPYman- (begins talking) Hey now boys, c- on. Pass rte them Mygrits. You how, a geat big slice of tshat big old, yau haw,
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Sugar-cured ham. Oh, I tell yau. You do that, You're go- to have yourself Qle mi&ty happy man. Yes sir. You Imow, and *en I'm eating Stuff like that, I cam just,smell them molias and azaleas in blocrm. ktme up to that table, scoot way over there. Come on, give tw lots of, elbow rocm. (begins s-ing) Pass me than, Manmy-fried-hoe-cakes , and them goal old black-eyed peas. Hayrack full of biscuits, make my coffee black if you please. If you feed m, ala Dixie, in a style so grand. You're going to have yourself, a mL&ty happy man. With sorgun molasses, You're going to have yourself, a mighty hppy man. Q: So that's Red Foley? A: Yes.
Q: me na~of that is '!Hominy Grits?" A: 'MyGrits," yes.
Q: So did you like that song because it ms about food, or you like it because of the my he played it? (later) A: Mll, both of them. A canbination of both. It was a real good job he did, a nice job of doing it. And, like I say, it ms about good old Southern cooking, oh boy. God thing I ate dinner a tjhile ago. (laughs) But I love that kid of eating, oh boy1
Q: How did you primarily make your living in the 19501s? A: I txlned pianos and just playd what I could. Anything I could get. I sold, dlre and Mabel sold Blair prdwts.
Q: Ard that stated in 19601
A: Right, 1960. Different things.
Q: Ws that just in Werly that you did that? A: Anywhere that 1 could get custurers. Sonretimes now, in my piano tuning jobs, peaple ddcame after nre. They still do sclmetbs.
Q: So, hen did you start giving rmsic lessons? A: Well, let's see. I've been teaching them I guess, a little bit off and an, ever since I was able to play. Abmt a couple of years after I lead to play. I think I started at, 35 cents a lesson, I believe was the price for the first ones I ever gave. Sme kids in Tad, I lived wex there
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then, they wanted to learn the guitar. There Ere not myteachers at that tbunless you'd go clear to Springfield or sawhere. They said, 'Well m wish e had a guitar teacher in this town,'' so . . .
Q: That's &at ytxl became. A: %at 's &at I became. I started helping thern aut. Like I say, I think I got 35 cents a lesson, or sarething like that. Q: Ib yau have a basic style that you use, to begin with? When you're tear:hing, or . . . A: Yes. I teach than the very simple--the scales, like the C scale, I shaw than where C is. (plays a C scale on the guitar) Ard the, simple chords. Like the easiest chord on the guitar for example is the G chord, like that (plays it while naming off notes). So I take it kan there. I kitad of wakh about the first five or ten lessons to see how they're going to do, if they're going to like it. Q: If hyare sticking with it? A: Sticking with it. Whether they want to go on. Like this girl that I'm teaching now, Heather--I don't think there is a chord on there now she doesn't haw, I mean, she learns them. Lhat she can do, of course e couldn't do it on the bluegrass progrm, E go in a little on the classics.
Q: &1 really?
A: I don' t how whether I can show you. There is a song called 'kresque," you've probably heard it. Wlt the trick is, you play the sat^ chord in three or four positions, now I'll have to vhistle it, I hope they mn't mid. I hope somebody don't serd ICE a package of bird seed here. (lau&ter) To show you, to illustrate my point here. (begins mistling and playing ''Humresque'')
Q: So you're *istling the melody &ile you're chording on the guitar? A: Yes. Just to have samethhg to go with, to show you. Ebt w play that. She plays the part I was playing on the guitar, while I play the dolin, the part I was playing. Ard she can just take that right through. 'Ihere is even om part h the middle, &ere it goes, (begins playing and laPrming). It's got minor chords in it and everything, and she can go right thmugh it.
Q: So ymhave taught the kids to pick it up by ear?
A: Well, I teach then notes too, if they mt to learn them. Of course, I didn't have to teach her that, she's had piano so she how notes. Q: This is Heather Brown, right? A: Yes.
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Q: How long has she been taking . . . A: A yeax ad about, three or four mnths. Q: PJow &re is she firm? A: Here in Waverly. That is out north of tom. Q: She is not a relation to August Brow that you used to play with, is she?
A : Yes, a cwsh somhow or another. Yes, in fact, they can both trace their mestars back fran kethose Brow came over £ran Gemmy in the 1800's. And way back, the tm mn ere brothers. Of course it's scattered out now, what I man is, it's spread out . . . Q: You man their ancestors, Heather Brown ad August Brown ' s , they =re brothers ? A: Yes, back there. Of course they'd be third or fourth cousins by now, I m. Sawwhere along in there.
Q: Me11 that is interesting though--that you muld be giving lessons to samebody, a relative of s-one that yrxl played with a lot. A: Right. Yes, that's right. Q: Jbw did you treet her? A: It seems lilce somebody told than about m, they had somebody teaching her, I think at one of the nusic stores. They just didn't sea to be getting anyhere. They ddgo in to take lessons, he muldn' t be there, or scmthing, d they said, '%ll that isn't getting us anywhere," so they decided to ccsne to E. They wre msch mre satisfied.
I don't lOZCPW htthe problem wts exactly. I don't like to say anything abut anybody else anyway, I just . . .
Q: Have yau ever had a sixdent that progressed so quickly it WE hard to hep up with thm? A: Ihat' s *at I 've got right now. (laughter) Yes, she progresses real quick. I've had several like that, though. I had a boy by the name of Brent Rawlings, he wuld lean it just that same my.
Q: So has anybody ww gone on to do a lot with it, or has it just been mre . . . A: k11, let's see. Yes, there is one boy. His narre is Bill Hodson. His father is now the city clerk here in kerly. Anyhow, he wmt on with it, he taught at, he is a Catholic tbugh, and he ms away from here at another tom. Jk taught then, guitar there.
Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Ivan Dodge
Q: You man at a Catholic church or school? A: Yes. Lkre he wmt. He is sMying I think, for sane degree in the priestbood, I don't how. I don't derstand . . . Q: He's probably in seminary.
A: Seminary, yes. hw, he took his @tar with him d he ws teaching there at the same time. Oh let's see, what others. CXle of them mt into rdio and played a ddle. Played on the radio stations. Q: Do you enjoy teaching?
A: Ch yes, I lwe it. Q: Yes?
A: Especially vhen pu get a plpil who can really learn. Srmetimes I get one I hstfeel sorry for. I love every one of my pupils thou&. I have seen same of than, they wanted to so bad and, they just didn't have it. As one of my friends said, "You've got to have it here (pints to heart), before yuu can . . . tt
A: Yes. And that's true.
Q: What do yuu think is most important then, the desire to mt to leam, or nabxal talent? A: A little of both. I know people that wnt to leam and can't. I've got a cousin that I've tried to teach, he wnted to learn to play the banjo. So, I tried to teach him, ard I thought, Well, maybe it's my fault ." I didn't Sean to be getting anywhere with him. Q: Yes? A: So, I sent himup to a guy in Springfield, 1 thinkhe stillrmlghtbe there, he's getting up in years tho.@ if he's there, Charles MacNeil. He teaches banjo and guitar and all this, so I sent him to kNeil. It took hh about three lessons ard he [MacNeill said, "Lb you have anything you'd rather do than play that banjo?" He [cwsin] said, 'Well I like to ride horses." We [&Neil] said, 'Well that's what you'd better do ." Q: (laughs) Oh no! A: Yes, he simply didn't have it. (laughter)
Q: %at a way to be told.
A: That's what he told him, I guess that's as good a my, told him he ws just =sting time with it, in other words. He ws good with horses, I'll say that.
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Q: (lilllghs) I know we viere talking off & tape recorder Thursday, about you being a ham radio operator. A: Yes.
Q: I mted t;o fird out how you got started on that. A: In school, I guess in our scout manual, they had the Wrse code ad a little bit of information there. I think it ws either there or in a book £ran the library they had. Another fried and I, re got interested and his rime was Russell Farnswrth. k ledthe EJbrse code and we'd sent code to each other, one thing ard amtiher, practicing. So e got this little book called, '%w to Make a Crystal Set." Q: Right. I r& you told rn about that.
A: About bw rn wind the coil. and all that, so E vent dmto the dimestore and fad a galena crystal, as they called them. bk assanbled one of those things d it mxked. k cauld get Sprm$f£ield, that rss the only station that ms there at the tb. WTAX ant even on. Then it care on in 1930, and that gave us another one. kt that kind of got us interested. Gradually over the years then, he got his license, his amateur license, and--I didn't get beuntil after the war. After WWII, but I kept my interest up. And, I had a short-we receiver for a number of years wen before that. After MImy interest revived in it, and I thought, ''Well I'm just going to bone up on that code and go down there ad get my license .I' So, in 1950, I got ready far the test. I fottnd out fran the FCC, dxn they =re going to have it. It w on August the loth, 1950. I had my--stepbrother take E to this electric train, electric car, in Auburn. lhey called it the ITS, Illinois Terminal Systan. So I boarded that, mt to St. Trruis, took my &ite cane with me.
Went down to St. Louis and found out &ere the building ms down there. The Wtnzus €milding, I believe it as, on the sixth floor. I wnt dom there axd I had my application all filled out kfore I left, presented it, ad the guy said, "All right." Took m in, sat me down. I had a little portable typewriter with me, ard so, I got all set. He plt the phones on my heal ad started to cranking out the code to me, ad I copied her dom. Q: Yes? A: I had to take the other test orally. They'd ask you questions about, dut this or that is usd fox, ard of course, a lot of technical things pu know, about the radio. And dut do you know? I passed it. Got a Class B license.
Q: Wll, ao then you could serd code mssages out, but not voice? A: Some voice, a little bit limited on the voice with the Class B. I r+mt a couple of years later, and got dmt they call Mvanced Class. That's *t I've got now. Then I could go abut on any of it.
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Q: So have you talked with a lot of people all wer? A: All over the mrld.
A: Yes, practically.
Q: Ibw do you go about making a contact far my? just go wer there ard wtch for it. If you hear scmbody callingA: "'z t they call, "c-q ," that means anybody can anser . Anybody cares to an,swr. Well, sa~tbsI 'd p~tout a "c-ql' and sarnebody wuld cane back to me. Q: Yes? I had that one time, I did that and a fellow I faund out: ws in =st Gemmy came back. (laughs) Q: W. bk11 what do you talk about?
A: Everything in general.. FJhatever they mt to talk about. Sm~thsS~R tell a little bit about our country, and dmt *'re doing.
Q: That is amazing that you could reach sc~lebodythat far. A: Yes, you can do it.
Q: Wave you ever ansmred an awgency call, or heard one? A: Yes. A truck driver one time, they =re looking for smebody. He ws in Iow, and he got appendicitis, I think, or mthing. He ms trying to get a message back h,and so I, it ws at Hettic or Palmyra. So I took tbe message and sent it on to his fdly there.
Also, there WAS one, scm pple in California that ere catching the train back there. There ms a dea~in the fdly in Werly, and so, they ere looking for sc-rmeone back here to get a rressage in that they =re carming, in by train. A guy out in Nebraska said, "c-q Waverly , Illinois, hrwer that is." So I carre in and I answered. I said, "Did I hear tJhat I think I did?" Another guy here said, "Yeah, the guy called WJP, *ich is Wexly, Illhis.It So then, I took the mssage ad they gave me the address here. I twk the mssage and I got Mabel, at that time she could hear better than she does now. So I got her ard told her FJhat the mssage ms. It was just, 'Ve will be arriving in by train, have somebody at Springfield to met us at such-ard-such time," 7:45 h next everhg, or sarething. 1 called him back and said, '%Well, your rnessage has been delivered, thy will be there to meet them." Q: It rmst be pretty suprising to sit down and hear somebody say, 'Wwerly , Illinois. " (laughter)
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A: Yes, it is.
Q: So ytxlr call name is ztually a nmbex? A: Yes, W9, -11 every amteur bas a call of sm~kind. Mine is WP. And the way that, w can maEGe up any phonetics that w mt to, one of my friends gave m letters for my call, '7.Javerly1s nine little green peppers." (laughter) I still go by that.
Q: D;, you know why he ceup with that? A: b. mly it ms just the call letters, yrm know, WLGP . . . Q: Right. So when citizen band radios started up, did that create any interfereme or . . . A: bb. They don't bother us.
Q: kre pu ever interested in tbse? A: Somewhat. I 've listened to than, d in people's hares I 've talked on the citizen band. he time, I was with a fried of mine, frm cxrer here at Franklin. Mbel and I =re going over there for dinner, they invited us wer one Sunday. His wife is also a c-q operator, and she had cme tund on in the house, m =re cOmFng over in the car. k got about half way there, he says, "Say, I 'm driving this car. Wdyou like to call and tell Tarraine I'm coming?'' He called -elf "Ironsides" because he drives a bulldozer. I said 'This is Ironsides to base, e 're arriving, have the dinner ready." She came back and said, "Okay." Said, 'Wk'll be there, and will beit ready." So that was nice, R cauld report back and forth.
Q: F$-y are ham radios called '!ham1' radios? A: It's a term £or amateur operator. Lik ham actors, you see. Q: Okay. Do you know tlhy that particular bard originated?
A: Well, errperimatal. By getting these hm~on the air, as they call them, used UI be not so true anpre-they used to make a lot of their om equi~t.Of course, a lot of people did back then, back in the early 1930 s d 1920's. Soarrt people even made their ow radios.
Q: Right.
A: The ~e~tencouraged that because people wuld get on there and try new things. Sam guy ddsax, "I've got a new idea, I'm going to build this up and see if it mrks. You how, if it did, then that was someting new. Q: Yes. A: A lot of new equiprent originated right in the ham band, that's here the guys wuld make it d test it out.
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Q: Yes. Speaking of new things. Are there new things that you hear now on the radio in music that yrxl like a lot? A: & yes, sure.
A: k11 let lrre see, the styles they've changed sanewhat wer the years. heof the things that I like a lot that has care about in the last few years is the Chet Atkins style of guitar playing. Q: Yes?
A: There was tm fellows d~okid of, it's kind of developed mer the last few years as Pkrle Travis and Qmt Atkjns in particular, Jerry Reed, there's several others that have developed this style. They play the mlody and the chords at the same time, they use the thuub pick. (begins playing guitar) They play ~~companimentwith one finger and pick the lead, see, (plays . Q: Okay. A: I'll play a little of it, called the ''CarrnonbaI.1 Rag." (plays Cannonball Rag, instnmmtal) Q: Boy, your fingers mre just flying on that1 A: (lau&s) Yes. Yw have to keep wing on that one.
Q: SO was that an older style that some people haire brought back? A: Yes, I think it is, really, then they brought it back ard it's really becaare popllar. Q: What about styles that maybe haven't been as preserved . . . are there any that yau can think of that are maybe starting to die off? A: Yes. T!re was one hre tky tunel the guitar altogether different (begins re-tuning guitar). That's &at they call a--this is a real old W. A neighbor of mine used to play this, way back years ago. They call it, "Spanish Fardango." It sounds sarethbg like this. (plays "Spanish Fandango" )
End of Side W, Tape Five
Q: That sounds kind of like a waltz tempo. A: el1 sort of, yes, it's a broken the. Sanething like that (begins to play sonre of the song again), it wuld be a one-tm-three, like that . . . Q: So that is some- that isn't done?
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A: Not msch anpre. Peter kqton did a little bit of that. Ik had a tune called, htwas it, "A Penny for Your Thmghts" or sane- like that. ktE see if I can do that. I got to *ere I could play this once. (begins playing guitar) I think this wts just tw or three years ago that he care out with Ws, ht like I say, it uses the same tuning, open G. That is htthis is called, open Gchard tuning. Q Okay, right.
A: (plays Franpton piece on guitar) Sathing like that. Q: Wow1 Well, ycru mentioned Peter Frarnpton, so you utlisten to current rmsic other than dmt is on country statians?
A: Oh yes. I try to keep up on everything a little bit. Q: So, have you listened d a lot of hat they call, New %ve , or Punk Rock? A: Scrme of it, Michael Jackson for example, I 've heard him. Q: Wtdo you think about that kind of music? A: W11 of course I like cmntry music better, kt I can listen to it. 1 try to be open-minded about everything. I listen to sae of--Sylvia for example, I guess she is a country singer mre, I like Sylvia and Tamrrry Wynette. Well that TqWynette, she's days "standing by her man," I get a kick out of that. (laughs) Oh, dl the way from that to, I don't care for real hard rock too rmch.
A lot of it now, I've been tyyhg to find aut one thing. htin the wrld, in this rock music I hear smthing every once in a while there's a hysourd in there, there'll be a big flick on the dm,bangety-bang-bang then they' 11 go "Cbf , oof , oo, oo ." (laughter) What's that supposed to be? Q: I have no idea. A: I don't either, I can't flsd anybody else that knows either, wnder what they . . . Q: I don't know, unless it mld be sane kind of synthesizer. A: bthhg. Now I heax that there and I wnder if they do it with their voice or if they, sane of them sourd like they do, ad then others it sdsmre like an instmmmt of sakird. Q: Well there are a lot of songs now that are done by using synthesizers. A: Yes, they have those synthesizers and all sorts of us. Q: lhere is so mch you can do with that. A: SoIIle of than wen, I've heard smof than sound lik they Ere ccdng thrmgh the wire you know, wh whmh wh wh woh (laughter).
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Q: Have yuu heard a lot about cmpter rmsic? A: No, I don't knowrmch about that. I've heard that they can do i. I tbu&t they carrposed it by carrplter.
A: I don' t knrxJ *ether they play it by complter or not. 1 don't how that whabut it. Q: IJow important do yau it is to preserve past nusic?
A: Oh, I like it. I think it's a god thing. Of course, maybe I'm a sentimentalist, I don' t know. You'd be suprised at what I have here. I 've got HaFJaiian rrmsic that wiis recorded in 1918. (laughs) It's kind of scratchy, but I like to hear it every once in a kile, they have some pretty good ideas. Q: Personally, do ynu think that people =re mre Wative in the past withnusic than they arenow? A: kll maybe in same wys-I tell you, one reason probably, they had to be. They didn't have, wll here now for example, Jimmy Rogers that e =re talking about. W don't rdize bwmuch of pioneers those guys really =re, see? tk got programs, I can c- in here, I can sit dom and listen, '%lr I'm gorma get TE sane ideas now, on *at I want to play in songs ." 1'11 sit dom and listen to the radio, and I'll hear son~thing. &ll now here, these guys didn't have that. Q: Right.
A: They had to mb up htthey, that's &y JmRogers had his om style of playing because, he probably never heard too mch other &at ms awdhis own locality. Because the radios, I can remkr ken there was no such thing as a radio in every hare, the phonograph vas largely the center, or the player piano or wtw other--means .
Q: Ri&t. Well, do you think saething has been lost, because of tecblogy or...
A: Well, some of it, there is scmbe art that has been lost, like w =re talking about a classical style of banjo that yrm never hear rmch anymre. Bill Rintz played a record the other day that Dale Evans brou&t dom £ran Bloomington. It wits a very classical style--they =re using, the guy ms playing all sorts of (bgins s- minor stylized chords) . Q: This ww on the banjo? A: Yes. hd picking chords like that see? (contimes playing) See, like that. I was very classical. I don't how htthe song ms, but: you could take my song and play it in a chord style like that. That was pretty. But you don't hear it mxch anymre.
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Q: Yes?
A: Let's see, I used to play a song on the guitar like that, called "Song of the Islds," a Hakian song--&at key did I play that in, F, I think. (begins playing guitar, "Song of the Islands, instnmmtal) Like I say, I hate to see that kid of rmsk go out. Ard then there's another style I used to play-*ere you played the mldy and the accmpanhmt at the sane time, with a straight pick. Here, I'll play an old poplar song, "I hd a Drean." kt's see if I can this mrk, it will SOU& almost like tm guitars if I make this wrk, sorneths its . . . (begins playing "I had a Dream")
A: Yes it is, but I don't how why they don't play like that anyme.
Q: Wen was that ppular?
A: Oh, in the 1930ts, mid-1930ts, along in there. The guy used to play it an banjos axld guitars both. I used to play another one 1ik that, it was Duke Ellington's %cd Indigo."
Q: Oh, that's beautiful. A: (plays ''bod Indigo" on guitar)
Q: That's really interesting. Wtdo yrm think is the mst exrsiting-either hearing new music, or wll-lwed songs, or playing, or composing? A: k11, a little bit of all of it. I think that is variety. Like I said one time, smthing about, I told one of my friends and I think he had a point--1 said maybe I ou&t ta stick to one instrument, and really learn it, ad forget about the rest of then, he says, "If you did, you'd get so bored with it, ytxl wuldn' t knaw atto do. You need that variety."
Q: you feel like that's true? A: I think it is--really. I like to cmpse once in a &le, learn new things, new songs. Q: Yes. Has plrsuing rmsic always been -thing that, just becue you liked music YOU did it? Or has it been mre like inside you, a mtivating. Idnd of thing inside pu--that it ~iassaething you had to do--it had to cotrre out? A: A canbination of both. I lwe rmsic , I always he, ever since I can renlembes . We had the old phonograph when I twa youngster, why, I just lwed t~ hear the records that w had.
Q: You mean, at yaur he? A: Yes.
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Q: I30 yrxl have a lot of mries of sitting d listening . . . A: Oh ~s . There was (lau&s) , I tell you, this is funny now. There ms one song by a choir or smthing, d the phonographs at that tine of case =re very-a little different than what: they are now. We didn't hwe stereos and stereo records. Q: Yes?
A: %is one--the choir, when they wuld sing, "land of the txue where e live and' you how, it w real loud. It mld vibrate. When I w a little kid, that scarad ne to death. (laughter) They'd pt that on, and FJhen it got to that part, I'd run for tall timber. (laughter) I can laugh about it now. I didn't realize then it was a hpm of comfort, you couldn't have told rrre that then. There w just a monster in that box, trying to c- out after me. But most of thern I liked.
Q: Ib you rdranything in particular? A: 0&, let's see.
Q: Anythie your rmm likd? A: Yes. Ch yes, e always had, all the my fran sentimntal ballads all the my dom the line. There used to be one, '%hen You 're Gone, I Wn't Forget You." I still have that record, by the my, original copy of it, its an old Victor.
Q: Did you have a victrola, is that what it ms? A: Yes. me, PE first had a table del. I had a portable later that I took to school with me. Q: Yes.
A: And then va got this one. Mm papered [mllpapered] a fellow's house--I kid of mted it. He had it in his hause there, I saw it d liked it. Of course it had a rotor in it then. But m~ almys had, same End of a victrola.
Q: You said your mxn papered a guy's he? A: Yes. Q: You mean to get it for you? A: Yes. Yea. J3e gave her the victrola then.
Q: So, the one that you originally had, the one yous rrrrm and dad had, tas itthe~thatyou~?
A: &, they all =re.
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Q: lhey all -re. A: All except, you can see on the side of that cabinet there tihere the crank used to go in.
Q: Oh, so this is the one right here? A: Yes. Zhat's the om she papered the house for.
Q: &1 boy. Yes, I see on the side right here. A: That Zenith sitting on top, that's one I got later-that portable one. It's about, I think about 1952, sonmihere along in there. It still plays pretty god. Q: Yes? A: I keep it because it's got 78 on it. Q: Yes. A: They say sarne of the new ones don't have it. Q: 'Ihat's right, they don't. A: But I '11 tell you, I think Bill said they =re talking about it, I don't knrYw if they did, but they said they =re going to dss out on a lot of the old jazz classics if they don' t. Q: Yes. Bill Rintz or Bill Mry? A: Well, let's see *ich one was it? (laughter)
Q: QE ow the other.
A: CkLe of them. We viere talking about it yesterday morning [at WSSR radio station] and they =re both in there at the saroe th, so--Fbrry and Rintz both. kt I could see that, because a lot of bke Ellington and--Louie Armstrong ad a lot of than, they recorded on 78's. Q: So you keep up a lot with they younger micians? A: Oh yes. I try to. Q: How did pu first treet up with than, just &am playing at places? A: Yes, lots of ths. Q: Did p meet Bill Rintz before you started listening to his program? A: Yes. I met him through Floras W, up in Springfield. Floras got my name frm some other guy, they Ere looking for rmsiciarrs. kster God, an instmmmtal repairman or scamthing, in Spring£ield , he hew me. He 'd done some mrk for m. In fact, he firred this guitar one time for m.
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Q: Yes.
A: Anymy, Floras said, "I want sornebod to la sarzle old-time rmsic, lik fiddle -ic ind stuff, to accompany m.' &I& the thefiddle. Lester God mld him about TIE so he called me up out here axd wanted to know. I told him about myself a little bit, ad he came after rrre then, ard e ford a goup. Floras Iamb, Bill Rintz , Bob %enson, and Tim kKean--dm else ws in that? They called them the Sangarm Valley Hoedomers . (laughter)
Q: About Fjhen was this?
A: kt1975, nine years ago. And so that's where I got acquainted with Bill Fbtz. They wxe sta~tingto plt bluegrass music on WSSR at that time. I imagine "Bluegrass Breakdown," the program, is about nine or ten years old.
Q: I think it is, yes. A: Zhat's about the th.
Q: lhat is the longest that you have wer used one particular instmment?
A: Let KIE see. I've had this one [guitar]since 1959. Q: So, mty-five years. A: fS Hawaiian guitar I 've had since 1946, I have the dolin that I 've had ske 1942. (lau&tex)
Q: This is probably silly, fnst do you get attached to the ones you used for so long?
A: ah yes, you sure do. ?his old guitar here, for example, I vmuldn' t take a farm in Tex;as for this thing. It's kind of beat up maybe, bt it sods good and that one little problan I mtioned a kile ago, that one little string, I don't think its kt- anything anFy. But I can get samebody to plt a little bit of plastic mad in that notch. That's ht's happed. It's vibrating, and kird of mm. Q: Yes. A: I don' t imagine, if it didn't interfere with the tapes vie made before, because it's been that way for a kile.
Q: bht mild ylru say is your personal playing style? A: Mainly I'm sort of--a little bit of cambination of Jimny Rogers--I we the bass run style that Jimny Rogers did.
Q: ht's the bass run style? A: Like (plays guitar) putting those runs in wherever you can in the song. And, I use a little bit of Carter fdly. (plays)
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Q: So. Just fccm hearing you play a lot, I wuld say that although your picking styles differ, you seem to lik ones that mea lot. A: Yes. I do. I like rn mealong, that's right. Wlt slow style, I like to do FkLat they call a Wstern, &at they call Wstern. Now this is txue Western rmsic. Zhey call it today "Country-Western," but a lot of it isn't kstern. Now this is a =stern song in my opinion. (begins playing) Ridkg down the canyon To see the sun go dom. A picture that no artist ere could paint. Wte-faced cattle lowing Ck.l the rmuntain-side, I hear a coyote for its mate. Cactus plants are blooming Sagebrush everywhere, Granite spires starding all asd. I'll tell you folks its heaven To p riding down the trail When that setting sun goes dom. When evening chores are cwer At tshe ranchhouse on the plains, All I've got to do is lay ar:OUIY;Z. I saddle up my pony And ride on dmthe trail, To mtch the setting sun go dow. Cactus plants are bloaning Sagebrush everywhere, Granite spires starding all arourd . I'll tell you folks its heaven To g~ riding dam the trail Lhm the setting sun goes dowl. (yodellimg follows) Q: What wu the name of that one?
Q: Who did that? A: The Sons of the Pioneers, I'm sure.
A: 1936, I 'm sure. %*ere along in there.
Q: Do people still ask to hear those kinds of songs? A: They sure do! If yrm get ardthe right places they do. Oh yes, The Sons of the Pioneers have reissued sare of their albums, they tell UE.
Q: You've written several songs, htws probably the first song that you wrote?
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A: C&, let mt think. Zhe first one I wrote, I think ms--I called it 'Then You Will Come Back to Me." ktm see if I can . . . (begins playing) They tell rt~today that you're leming Srmehaw I can't tell you why. Wlt metheart, my poor heart is grieving So mch that I can't help kt cry. After you're gone, your love will limger on Although you're far gone firm me. 1'11 still love you, and always be true No rnatter &re you my be. Someday the dark clouds will care dear, Ard bring on the rain, wait axd see. And when yau find you're all alone Then ycxl will cmre back to me.
If ever you need me my darlin' I will be waiting right here. Cause I will always lave you No ~natterwhat happens my dear. After you're gone, you luve will linger an Although you're far gone frcm me. I'll still be true, ad still lave you No mattex here pu may be. Smday the dark clouds will care dear, And bring on the rain, =it ad see. Ard hyau fixd, you're all along, Then you will cam back to m. (yodelling) (c) Ivan Dodge Q: Wen do you think yau wrote that one? A: In 1934, samhere back. See, yodelling ms quite popllar at that the. Q: You've written, w11 I guess I'll ask ym this first. Khen you're writ*, do you sit dom ad start picking wsout ox . . . A: Scrmetimes , it may cane different ~ys,I man, one time I even dread abut a song.
Q: Now I've done that too, but &en I wake up I can never rder it. But you rambered it ~IXI yuu wke up?
A: bst of it, yes. Q: Yau've written songs fbr fiddle and mardolin also, haven' t you? A: Yes, several of them. I had one I called 'The Werly Waltz ," there's not a copy of it anywhere, not that I heard of, I never wen wrote it dm, I just played it. It got to be qpite a poplar song around this area.
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Wer there, Where we wlk the golden streets. Wer there, Our lwed ones R will met. With our Savior, Forever VE will be. What a blessed happy day for yau and me! (c) Ivan Mge
Rd of Side he, Tape Six
A: In 1954, I was wanting to get married, so this was part of the proposal I guess, in sort of a way. But anyhaw, I wrote this song along about Christmas time in 1954. I did have this song copywrited, by th way. It vas on a radio station or tm around the country. Q: So, it was a record? A: b, it taasn't a record. A couple of artists just did it, played it. (begins playing ad tuning the guitar) lky days told nae not to use baling wire. ( laughter) Q: Yes, right.
I werheard scm frierds of mine Discussing plans so gay. Presents that they hopd to get Qn mrry Wistmas Day. I had tbu&ht it over, Ard it seems to me, If I could get my Urristmas wish Here's &at it wmld be.
Now I could be so happy With a gift or tm, And all I want for mistmas Is y-0-u. Gingerbread or candy, May be swxt that's true. They could nwer be half so met As y-0-u.
I wrote to dear old Santa Claus Up in North Pole latit, And I said, "dear Santa Claw, Would yau led a helping hand?" If you'll make U.E happy, dear, kistmis wish'll carae true. All I want £or ChrisWm Is y-0-u.
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I've st a great big Christmas tree Lights that shine so bright. But I ndmy om true lwe To always hold me tight.
So if you make me happy, dear, &istixu wish cam true. All I want for Christmas, Is y-0-u. (c) Ivan Dodge Q: That's wtdewfull A: It nust have wrked .
Q : It rmst have wxked . You mt mried tm mths later. A: Yes. Q: I knew you viere rmre romantic than &at you =re letting on the other day, that's great. A: (laughter) Q: Well, I think--are there my other songs of pas that you wuld like to do now?
A: Let's see. Did I do the one "Yesterday Was Yesterday?"
Q: No, yrxl didn't. A: Fbw that came about, I played on a pr-ram called 'Prairieland Opry ," dom there South of Weato. A guy, he bouglrt a sale bam, (begins stnnmdng @tar) he converted it wer and made a place &ewe he could have programs, ycru knw* Q: You mean live or on the air? A: Yes live. Q: And this was . . . A: And I was playing on there, this ms in 1976. I was playing with tm or thee bands at once, Floras Lanb art then on the Prairieland Opry . See all the guys did. All that group but Floras, =re playing with different--= had the Sangam~lValley Ibedomers. Part of that group, Tim IMhn and Bill Rintz, I don't know hther Bob ms in on that or not, they =re playing in a grasp callad the F'irmegans Wake. Ard they played mstly Irish wic and so 5xth.
Q: lhat was Bill Ebrry d John Van Qnaan. A: And Bill Rintz and those. That's the one. FJas it John Oberman?
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Q: John Van Orman. A: Yes. Anyhow, I was down there at this opry. =re all talking one Surebody ms talking about mrrying about tarorrow, and I said, wrry abut tomrrow, " ad m of the other guys said, 'Yes, ~'11just let it take care of itself ." So that's *re, I don't how, samehow that kind of sbxk with nae and I started lnmdng a tune on the my hare, so here's what cam out. (starts playing) Now this has got a little bit of . . . Ever since you left re, I just sit around. I thought I never wuld get over you. All my grief d mrrying did little goal I found, So I decided htt I 'm goma do. I'll not sit at hmre alone like all those tines before. I think it's time I cam dom £ran ray shelf. Yesterday ws yesterday, today is here at hand, Ard toaaorrow can take care of itself. Alas, I have to face it. Our love affair is through. There's no use in hoping, it can never be. I'll have to £id rn -one else to take the place of ymt. Ufe I how, uut still go on for me. So I wn't sit at hrme alone lik all those times before. Perhaps I'll fird true love with saneone else, Yesterday was yesterday, day is here at hand, And t011l~I:rowcan take care of itself. Tamrrrow can t& care of itself. (c) Ivan Dodge Q: I have heard that one before. Well Ivan, ='re getting to the erd. A: Of crurse I keep up now, I like things like Atme way's "Snowbird," and yau know, sathings like that.
Q: Do you have any final thghts on gour rmsic, on ynur life? A: I'd have to see. I don't how exept, I still say that I enjoy helping other peuple and the rmsic I do. I enjoy that and I interd to stay active as long as possible, &at I is, I may have to give it up, sdaydue b--I hope I don't get it, but arthritis ad things like that I knaJ it's happenad ta others. I have thought a little bit about that for example, if my hand got to where I couldn't play a guitar maybe I could mnage an autoharp or sathing +re you can push the buttons to make the tones.
Q: Right, the chords.
A: But in any case I don't intend to give up. As long as I don't have to.
Q: Well it's definitely going to remain a big part of your life. A: Qf my life, yes. Qle ayor other, no doubt. Q: Ivan, thank you so rruch. This has been wnderful. A: m11, you're wlcam. Ivan Dodge Memoir - Archives/Special Colelctions - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS IW of Interview