Interview with Patricia Ewert

Interviewed by Priscilla Cleveland North Central Minnesota Historical Center

Interviewed on May 5, 1980 at the North Minnesota Historical Center City, Minnesota

PC: This is Priscilla Cleveland of the North Central Minnesota Historical Center and I'm talking with Patty Ewert and it's May 5, 1980. Patty, would you like to just give us some of your background information? Ewert PE: I was born and raised in Bemidji. I'm almost twenty-five years old. I went to school at Bemidji Junior and Senior High. After high school, I worked around and decided what I wanted to do. I didn't want to go to school right away. I was twenty-one when I became pregnant and the father decided we were not going to get married. And so that's when I called the Welfare Department to get some help there because I decided to keep thePatricia baby and I just knew that I couldn't financially take care of that side of the--my pride was not going to stand in the way of keeping my baby clean-clothed and in clothes, [laughter] so that's when I came in.Society with PC: Were you pregnant when you moved here?

PE: Yes.

PC: Was it difficult at all for you to get help? WereHistorical they very receptive to you?

PE: I think just being--just goinginterview into that old building gave me a creepy feeling. I remember the furniture was kind of, you know, gross and...

PC: This was when it was still down in the old library? history PE: Yes, yes! Where it is now, I've only been in there once or twice and it's a lot more pleasant. But just kind of a dark, greyMinnesota building. I almost turned around and I thought: Wait a minute, just-- another thing being pregnant and not being married too, it wasn't. It's getting better accepted now. But evenOral three years ago, it was really frowned on. But I went in and I still felt like people were-- who I went to see was like, you know, in control of this money and I was at their mercy,. I didn't get on it right away because I was working at the time through Minnecep and I wanted to work until that program was done. And I still have [unclear] and I explained all this and so that everything was fine and she told me when I was going to start receiving my checks. Explained the procedure and all that. I think the hardest thing was when she asked me if I knew who the father was, like I was hopping around in the sack with different guys. Just the way--she probably didn't mean anything by it, but just by saying "Do you know who the father is?" really gave me a low opinion of

1 myself. That was a hard decision whether or not to state the father's name. I thought, should I go ahead and say the father's name and maybe have some legal hassles or should I put myself down and say I don't know. So...

PC: That's a hard decision isn't it?

PE: I put unknown first and I didn't feel too good about that. After the baby was born--because I didn't want to have anything to do with him anyway--and after the baby was born, I had to sign a paternity suit so the father would start paying. And I stated his name and we got things going [unclear] this past fall. So it was a year and a half or so from when I signed that paper until I actually went to court. He wasn't there. [unclear]

PC: So you're not receiving any child support? Ewert PE: No, he pays directly to the county. He pays like fifty dollars a month or so. But I think right now I'm--well I'm getting married in June and my fiancé is just like Jessie's daddy. She calls him daddy and he's just fallen into that role very easily. And the question has come up, well, should he adopt her, or--being that I'm still in school--him not adopt her and still get some money for her, you know. And we've discussed this and we thought, well, no moneyPatricia is worth this, you know, because she's getting to be--she'll be three years old and she'll know the name difference. And we just decided that we don't care how much money it is; it's not worth it becauseSociety we know we'll be able to make it someway anyway. So we want to get thosewith procedures done. And I just can't wait for the day I go down there and say I am off. [Laughter]

PC: Oh wow! Getting back to when you first went down, were you really put off by the forms that you had to fill out? Was that scary? Historical PE: Um, that's been quite a while ago. It's been three years nos. I guess I've never liked forms anyway. I just thought that reallyinterview it wasn't any of their business. Don't they trust me? Just think why do they need all this information. I just hated saying well, I'll just do this for the money. You know, it's like [unclear].

PC: Since you've historybeen on for a while now, do you have any better understanding of why they need you to furnish that on those forms? Minnesota PE: Oh, yes, yes. Well again, I wasn't attending school yet and I think since I've been attending classes hereOral at BSU[Bemidji State University] the last couple of years, I've become better educated and I understand the formalities and the reasoning behind. It's not just the welfare department. I mean it's everything that you've got to do this, and I understand more so now than before.

PC: Specifically what programs are you on?

PE: Well, I'm on Medical Assistance and I am on the AFDC [Aid to Families with Dependent Children] and then also, I get child care paid by the county. One nice thing about that--it's nice

2 anyway, but I don't have to sign any papers stating if my child was there at a certain time. They just deal--the people at the day care deal with people in the Social Service. I have nothing to do with that interaction at all. And that's kind of nice, you know, because I feel like when I brought her there and I said well here is the papers from the Social Services. [Unclear] They have other children under that program too, but I still felt there's a pink form right there, you know, saying that I don't have enough money pay for this. But they never have me any feedback and said oh, another one or [unclear]. But I just, you know, for myself, would rather write then out a check every week, but then I guess it's just that pride, you know.

PC: So at least for yourself, despite popular opinion, it's not fun being on welfare and getting it all free?

PE: No, no! I kind of just can't wait 'til I get off. I just--even like the red tape you've got to go through, through financial aides, too, here at school, it's just, you know, they Ewertsay you're making too much money or something. You can't get this or that. You write back to them and say no. I'm on this, I'm on that, but when I get done with this, I'm going to be paying Uncle Sam back. That's the only kind of sense of relief I have is that I know that I'll be paying this back, you know, because I want to and I really think it's a good program. All the programs that are available. It's just that--I think it's better now since they got a different building. It wasPatricia just that building. You know, you have to cross the big highway where people can see you. Where it's kind a--there's not too much action down where they are now. You can just walk in and out andSociety people aren't stopping the cars at the crosswalk or something, watching you go into withthe welfare department. So I just think it's a lot better since they got better facilities, nicer looking facilities.

PC: That makes a lot of difference. I know just the fact that it sat there all by itself and...

PE: Yes. Historical

PC: ...there was no way that youinterview could ever in your mind justify going into that building for any other reason or in crossing the street for any other reason.

PE: Yes, there was nothing else there. history PC: Just to go there. Have you ever requested any kind of help that you were denied? Minnesota PE: No. Um, yes, I don't really know of all the services that they have available. Just usually--like I heard aboutOral the child care by word of mouth or something on campus. And I went down there and they said, yes, you know I just--I didn't have to have any documents about what I got through school. I felt really trusted. They took my word for it. Maybe they called the school to see what I got, but this what do you get, you know. They wrote down, oh yes. Here's a paper. Pick out a day care you want to bring your child to. It just gave you responsibility, you know, It felt really good. They're not going to say, hello, send your kid here. It's just here's a list of the licensed places. We recommend this or that, but the choice is yours. It wasn't a facility for welfare kids or something. That was a good experience I had with the social service.

PC: When you went in, when you were still pregnant and you talked with the financial worker, were you then referred to the social worker?

PE: I requested to talk to somebody because I had asked about housing or something and the financial worker gave me a name to see somebody who was a social workers and I made an appointment and I really didn't get anything out of it. I had done everything she had told me to do like look in the paper, go to the lower income apartments and put your thing in there, and I had done all that anyway. And I guess I assumed that I would get more help, that they would have more housing lists or something. I don't know. I guess I was just expecting more. I felt like an idiot actually when they said, "Oh look in the papers." [Laughter]

PC: Did you have any kind of plans for once the baby as born; what you were going to do? Did they ever ask you, "Do you need help?" "Do you know what you're doing?" Ewert

PE: No, none whatsoever. It's just fill out your little income form every month and that was fine. You get your check. There was no questions asked. "Are you going to school?" "Are you going to work?" There was nothing ever. Patricia PC: Even when you went to the social worker, they didn't? Society PE: I only saw her once. That was about the housingwith thing and that was kind of--my opinion just really went down. I just thought [laughter]--what helped me the most, I think, was I went back on Minnecep and worked here at school in the records office. And my supervisor, I think, was more of a help that the social services. He really encouraged me to go to school. And when I had told them about it, to see if that would affect my grant from the AFDC, there was not encouragement, that's a good idea. They said no it wouldn't affect it, butHistorical just bring all your paper work down here. And so everything I get my money for school and any papers that have to with anything financial aid stuff, I make sure I go down there so theyinterview can xerox all this stuff off. And a couple of times I didn't go down there and they never asked for them, because when I went down there other times, they said, "Well, you're really on the ball. Hardly anybody comes in there with all this information and stuff." And so I just slipped a couple of times and there was no questions. They called me about it or anything. Becausehistory I guess, for myself, I wanted to see if it was really worth my time going down there dong this. Minnesota PC: Yes, right. Oral PE: Because I keep all the papers anyway and I thought if they needed them, sure I'll bring them down. But there was no--they never called me or wrote or anything what I was getting. So then I just king of wonder what's going on down there.

PC: Right. When you went to talk with the social worker, even through it was just about housing, there was no kind of concern about directing you into some kind of--or even finding out where you were at as plans. How you were handling having a child and being a single parent?

PE: No, huh ah. There was nothing. I guess I don't know if they were just considering my age. I was twenty-one and I was an adult. Maybe they thought I could handle having a child. But I was still going through a lot of things, being a social outcast. There was never, I never felt any concern from the welfare department at all. That could have something to do with he way I come off too. Maybe I came off very confident in myself. I guess maybe I said that because maybe I thought that's what they wanted to hear.

PC: Yes.

PE: Because I never considered myself a welfare case, your stereotyped welfare person. I always made sure that myself and my girl always looked neat and clean. I guess I did that. I didn't want anybody to know and ah... Ewert PC: That's interesting. [Laughter]

PE: So...

PC: The one--when you were talking earlier--the one programPatricia that you said that you weren't eligible for was food stamps? Society

PE: I was eligible during the summer months, but itwith came out to I was getting--I would pay eighty dollars for a hundred dollars worth of food stamps, and no way could my little girl and I eat that much in one month, especially in the summer months. And so I just thought, "Why am I?" I have to go to the grocery with these food stamps, and I don't hardly use them up anyway, and so I just kind of thought, "Well, I'll just forget about that program and just go in there with my cash instead." But the one good thing about it was I had thatHistorical money kind of put away for food. I couldn't buy anything else with it, so it was kind of like you little envelope system where you've got the envelopes for gas and all this otherinterview stuff and I couldn't buy gas or clothes or anything else with that. So it was good in a way because I had that money for food. But when I started going to school again in the fall, I wasn't eligible because--quote, unquote--I had too much money for going to school. They considered my grant and my loan and my AFDC all in one lump sum there, so then I heard, "She's makinghistory too much money."

PC: Without discrediting Minnesotaany of the expenses involved?

PE: Well,Oral the--the school, yes, but the don't knock off for car payments and there is no way I could have gotten around school or bringing my little girl to the sitter or anything without that. They knocked off--this was the thing that I couldn't figure out. They knocked off when I was paying for child care as long as I had the receipts, but they never told me that I could be eligible for free child care, to get under that program, and that's where I think these systems together there, everybody knows about that, because somebody that goes into the food stamp office may never go into social service office, and if they could be eligible for food stamps, they're probably eligible for other things, too. I think it would be very helpful if the person, the worker there could tell this person

5 what else they're eligible for.

PC: So there was a time when you weren't receiving child care and you were just paying that out of your grant money?

PE: Yes.

PC: How was that?

PE: It was tight, very tight. I had--there was no other way. I had to depend on my parents for some assistance from them. They got a lot of --well, my mom let me wash at her place for free. I didn't have to go to the laundermat and that saved me five bucks a week right there because my little girl was in diapers and I had real diapers for her. And I ate at least three meals a week at the house. My mom would sometimes just bring over different things that she Ewertmakes, or she would stop at the grocery store and bring me coffee or care packages all the time. I was constantly borrowing from them and until I'd get my grant money and then I could pay them back and then toward the end of the month, I'd have to borrow another twenty bucks and just keep working them. I wouldn't attend classes when I knew I couldn't pay the baby sitter. Sometimes I would bring my daughter to school with me, but that didn't work out too good.Patricia She was only a year and a half old then; didn't want to sit still. You just start taking money out of what you put away for different things. You got to just sit down and make your list of priorities. AmSociety I going to eat this week or am I going to go to school? [Laughter] One or the other.with

PC: How much do you receive for a grant for the two of you?

PE: From the welfare department? Historical PC: Yes. interview PE: Three hundred twenty one a month.

PC: Now, if you had no one to borrow money from, if you didn't have your folks who could help you out when thingshistory were getting tough and --like you say--drop off care packages, with the expenses that you have, do you think there's any possible that you could live anywhere near a decent life, you know, to Minnesotapay your rent and phone and lights and heat and eat and buy the clothes you need? Oral PE: No way! No way! I couldn't make it at all. I just--I know I couldn't. Going to school helps some because I get money for that because I have another dependent. I would have to have a roommate. There's no way I could find a place just for my daughter and I, that we could afford. There's just no way I could live; there's no place. I'd have to find a place that was for rent for a hundred dollars a month plus utilities, and just run around sweaters and boots to keep the heat down. I can see why the people that are on welfare are stereotyped like that because I can see why it would be hard. I know I wouldn't be able to make it without my family. And I guess that's

6 another reason why I stayed here. Because of--not just so I could depend on them for some things, but that I like to stay close because times get tough and I don't know where else to go. And I just thing that eventually I'd have to give up my home. That I just couldn't make it. Otherwise something would happen. Start driving or something, you know. So I just--I don't think that we could survive. Not with the cost of living.

PC: So that helps you understand maybe other people who do manipulate the system to get more out of it and then not always uncaring and dishonest people, but just simply because they can't make it on what's given to them, okay. On, the one part we didn't talk about was the medical assistance.

PE: I think it's a great program. I don't know what I would--I don't think I'd have nay teeth left. My daughter, she's been in at least once a month. Right now, well I've had--she' almost three and I've had her in the emergency room five times. She's accident prone. Climbing out of the crib: broken collar bone. When you're on medical assistance, you don't think twice.Ewert You think of your child, okay, let's go, but I have a tendency to sit and think, "Can I afford this emergency room bill?" I don't think--I hate to say it, but there's--I don't think I would bring her in as often as I do, because right now it's just I think of her first. It's not thinking of the money first, because that whole incident right there was over a hundred dollars with x-rays and a brace thing and all this, and I just thought and I just couldn't have made it there. She fell downPatricia and she broke her ankle. At least there was nothing, just x-rays and the cost of that was still about fifty dollars there, but didn't have to wear anything. Had a bad reaction from cats. When somebodySociety is breaking out in hives, you never know what's going to happen. with

PC: Right, right.

PE: [Unclear] Yes, I'm just thinking I can make it until she's nine. I can't wait until she goes to school, all the scratches she'll come home with.Historical [Laughter] But just things you don't think twice; you just bring them in. [Unclear] probably not. interview PC: What is you understanding of the purposes of welfare as a whole? Not any program specifically.

PE: I think of welfarehistory as being kind of the nature of what our country stands for as for helping people who can't really--there is no other way that they would be able to survive. And I've never had, um--I remember whenMinnesota I was younger, hearing other people say, "Oh, they're on welfare," thinking of them as lower people. And I had--in high school, I always lived a comfortable life with my parentsOral in middle class. I had a lot of friends who were not as fortunate as I was. There were-- just lived with their mother or something on welfare. I never had looked down on anybody and I think, basically, that's just what our country stands for. I mean we're helping everybody else, you know; why not help our own. I don't look t it as--for myself--I don't look at it as really something that's free and take advantage of. I think of it as just an aid for me for a few years so I can get on my feet and get a new life. And then in turn, I'll be paying that back so that they can help somebody else. I guess it's kind of like social security type thing, you know. We're paying, you know, for the people that are on now and then depend on the young people. That's kind of what they way I--for

7 myself--the way I look at it. And then yet, there is some people that their outlook is that they'll always be on it. You know, there's probably no other way for them and I still think that's really good because what are we supposed to do with people who cannot work you know, that they have to stay home. You shut them out in the cold.

PC: Right.

PE: But I just have a positive outlook on things. I don't think that many people could survive without it.

PC: Amongst the people you know in your family, do they accept you, accept you being on--was it hard for them?

PE: Oh yes. My mom has a little joke. Whenever I get any mail or anythingEwert from the welfare department: "Oh, you got a letter from Uncle Sam again." And says, when I get my check or something, "You got another check from your rich uncle," or something. It's--she's just joking around. It's not a cut or anything. She thing's it's good too, because she knows that I couldn't really survive without that. Patricia PC: What do you--oh, I guess you sort of answered that before. I was going to say, do you think you would have done if welfare had not been available to you? Society with PE: I would either have been living under the same roof as my family--my mother and father-- which I don't think would have worked out at all, or I probably would have--I have a history of chemical dependency. I am a reformed addict and I think eventually I probably would have gone back to that. And it's about been five years now since I went off the stuff. It just--that was the way I dealt with things when there was no other wayHistorical out. This would have been one thing that would have been a help for me that I could have seen. And that's probably what would have happened. My daughter would have been raisedinterview by my parents or else [unclear]. So they've actually kind of saved me, you know. So...

PC: Oh well, I think we've almost run through all the question we had. Only one more. Would you recommend goinghistory on AFDC to other people in you position? Can you think of any time where you wouldn't When it wouldn't be good for someone? Minnesota PE: I recommend it to a few of my friends--single parents. Most of them are on it anyway and they have the Oralsame outlook as I do. When they get out of school, they can't wait to have a job and won't depend on it anymore. I've told people about AFDC and about the other programs that are available. I don't think there would be really anybody. If I think that somebody is in need...

My thoughts back together. I just think that--it's hard to think of an example for something like this. I think the only person that I wouldn't recommend it to is if they didn't have a need for it. And if they found out about if and went down there, I think that the social worker or financial worker-- somebody down there--would tell them that no, they're not allowed. But, I guess just people that

8 don't really need it. You know, that they have other outlet available.

PC: This is sort of projecting and maybe not possible, but if you weren't getting married, what do you think you would do? Would you stay on the program and go to work or just go to work, after you were out of school?

PE: After I got out of school, I would probably, if it was possible, need to get like free child care, but by that time, Jessie would probably be in Head Start or something like that. But I think if I would get a job, I would probably get one that would be above their guidelines--the state funding chart--what I would get for a year, hopefully. [Laughter]

PC: Yes, right.

PE: Probably working at Gibson's or something like that. But I think if I wouldn'tEwert get a job that I could make ends meet and I would still be eligible for something, I would still take it because I want the best for my child. You know, I want her needs met. Not that I want to spoil her or anything, but I want her to have nice clothes and good food to eat and a good roof over her head-- the things that she needs. And if that's going to--I don't want my pride to stand in the way there either. I basically--when a decision like that come up, I thinkPatricia about her and what she needs, and that usually gives me the answer. Society PC: A couple of times you made references to thewith stereotyp e AFDC person. How do you see yourself in relation to that? What sort of conflicts d you have over that?

PE: I was used to a pretty comfortable style of living. I had not everything that I wanted, but I had my needs met. But I learned--one thing I learned how to do is to be a good consumer; how to shop for those bargains, getting things off season--basically,Historical clothes--and to me, that's very important in my life is to have nice clothes, and people are very surprised. I shop around and I wait for things to go on sale and I don't think I've everinterview really paid full price for anything. [Laughter] And I just, you know, I wait for those things and...

PC: That's great. history PE: I've got charge accounts so I can do that, you know, if I don't have the cash then. To me that's really worth it. I guess I don'tMinnesota want to look like what people think is a welfare person, dirty. I don't think of a welfare person like that, because I know a lot of people on it and they don't look all scrungy andOral smell and holey clothes or anything like and live in dumps. But um, I just-- I guess I kind of know a could [unclear] I don't dress like a typical person and I don't want my child with a slimy nose and straggly hair and dirty clothes. But I feel very fortunate, too, that I do have a family that will help out. That they can afford to do that, too. My mother's very good about that. Find something for my little girl--an outfit or something. Knowing how to sew helps, too.

PC: Yes, right. That's true. If you were still on when your daughter was older, would you tell her how you got your money?

PE: If she'd ask where's that check coming from, I'd probably tell her because I'm, even though she's only three, I'm very honest with her. She came up and says, "Mommy, where's my dad?" This is before I met my fiancé and I didn't expect this question for at least another year, and I just, you know, I told her. I said, "He lives a long ways away." "Oh, okay" and she toddled off. If I would have said, "You don't have a dad," she's "Oh my God. I am the only kid who doesn't have a father." I would tell her honestly, just like I've saved pictures of her biological father in case there is some questions. I've talked this over with my fiancé. I've said, "You know you'll always be her dad." But I've always put myself in her place. If I found out today that the father that I know is not really my biological father, I'd have a curiosity just to see what he looked like. Maybe not to go seek him out, but to have a picture of him to see what he looks like. But I'm not one to cover up, because that would reflect on her and she would feel ashamed or something. Not that I want her to feel proud, you know, that we're on. "Hey, we're on welfare." [Laughter] Get a t-shirt with that on or something. But just, I don't really hide things from her, things that she can understand.Ewert

PC: Well, sort of in wrapping up, do you have any last things to say?

PE: Any last words: No, I just--I'm really glad that there's programs like that. I guess, in one way, I'm not proud to go to that office and ask, but in another way,Patricia I kind of try to cover that up by the clothes I wear. Try not to look the part. Inside I, the same thing. There's two sides. Like well, it's not like I deserve this money. It's just that it's just an aid. I lookSociety at it as an aid just to help me through this [unclear]. But I think that is a healthy outlookwith on it. Not just stay on for life or sad to get off of it or anything.

PC: I think so. Right! Sort of like taking cough medicine to get over a cold or something. You really don't like the cough medicine, but it would sure be nice to get over the cold. Well, thanks a lot. I really appreciate your sharing. I think it willHistorical be really valuable for someone who has no idea what it is like to be on welfare. Who has never talked with anyone or known anyone. I think there's just some good feelings came acrossinterview on how you see yourself and how it makes you feel.

PE: I think the attitude of some of my friends or acquaintances here on campus might change in they knew. It's even--when they find out that I have a daughter, they kind of back off a little. You know, they're really shocked. Oh, you're not married? Yes! [Laughter] Sometimes, I think it's fun to do that, you know,history shock people, the shock treatment. [Laughter] I think it would surprise people. I think especially Minnesotathe typical student, the traditional student on campus comes from a pretty good background. They got their new car for graduation and they don't really have to worry about anybody Oralelse. They find something like this out, they just kind of back off.

PC: Sometimes I think that's true. They just have no way of relating it to their own lives. It's just something that is to forgoing, you know, and all the have to reflect back on are just stereotypes; what your read in the paper, all the controversy, the jokes, and what they're heard their parents say, which often is what they heard their parents say...

PE: Or if they've known one person that was that stereotype, they're all that way.

PC: Right. So you almost can't blame them because they really have no way of knowing anything. It's not that they have no way, but they really have nothing in their background to tell them anything else other than this person has--there's something wrong here.

PE: It's like another face of people of something--welfare people. [Laughter]

PC: Well, I just thank you again.

PE: Yes, thank you.

Ewert

Patricia Society with

Historical interview

history Minnesota Oral