In this month’s MAGAZINE Section: Make ready for COMIC BOOK CREATOR, the new voice of the comics medium! TwoMorrows is proud to debut our newest magazine, Comic Book Creator, devoted to the work and careers of the men and women who draw, write, edit, and publish comics, focusing always on the artists and not the artifacts, the creators and not the characters. Behind an ALEX ROSS cover painting, our frantic FIRST ISSUE features an investigation of the oft despicable treatment JACK KIRBY endured from the very business he helped establish. From being cheated out of royalties in the ’40s and bullied in the ’80s by the publisher he made great, to his estate’s current fight for equitable recognition against an entertainment monolith where his characters have generated billions of dollars, we present Kirby’s cautionary tale in the eternal struggle for creator’s rights. Plus, CBC #1 interviews artist ALEX ROSS and writer KURT BUSIEK, spotlights the last years of writer/artist FRANK ROBBINS, remembers comics historian LES DANIELS, sports a color gallery of WILL EISNER’s Valentines to his beloved, showcases a joint talk between NEAL ADAMS and DENNIS O’NEIL on their unfor- gettable collaborations, as well as throws a whole kit’n’caboodle of other creator-centric items atcha! Join us for the start of a new era as TwoMorrows welcomes back former Comic Book Artist editor Jon B. Cooke, who helms the all-new, all-color COMIC BOOK CREATOR! 80 pgs. • All-color • Quarterly WHY HAVEN’T IF JACK’S HEIRS KIRBYMADE ONE MEASELY THIN DIME OUT OF THE BILLIONS$ OF DOLLARS GENERATED BY HIS CREATIONS HOLLYWOODIN MOTION PICTURES? IS KING COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 35 and the Curious Case of the COUNTERFEIT Even after the team of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby suffered the indignity of being cheated out of royalties for their creation of Captain America, insult was added to injury when, CREATORS Secrets Behind the Comics scans courtesy of Javier Hernandez. in 1947, Timely publisher Martin Goodman is publically given credit for originating the “Sentinel of Liberty” by a guy who certainly knew better — Stan Lee!

imultaneous to the appearance of his article, “There’s Money in Comics,” in the November 1947 issue of Writer’s Digest, GEE, BUCKY, YOU woulD THINK OUR Stan Lee’s booklet, Secrets Behind the Comics, PUBLISHER would STRIVE TO an inside look by the editor and art director of BE like “honest ABE” HERE Timely Comics on how funnybooks are created, and tell the truth about is published by Famous Enterprises. Included in who created us, right? the 100-page pamphlet is a focus on “exactly how Captain America was created.” Well, not “exactly.” Bizarrely, Timely YOU BET, CAP! publisher Martin Goodman is cited as the YET SOMETIMES that creator of the star-spangled hero and — hasn’t been the case! BUT EVERY RED-BLOODED, surprise! — there is no mention of Cap’s TRUE PATRIOT KNOWS real creators, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. we were created This revisionism is particularly odd because, as any Marvel fan worth his/her salt knows, the author of the tract was hired in his initial comics job by the very ©2013 the respective copyright holder. same Joe Simon (then Timely’s first editor) and Stan functioned as a “gofer” for both Joe and Jack. In 1985, much to Kirby’s chagrin, the Cannon Group lists Stan Lee as creator of Captain America in movie trade publication advertisements (trum- peting the eventually aborted film version).

NOT COOL: Variety’s Cannes film festival supplement included this ad which featured an erroneous acknowledge- ment giving Stan Lee credit for creating Captain America.

Left: Relettered detail from Captain America Comics #9 (Dec. 1941). Sub-Mariner and omics covers ©2013 Marvel Characters, Inc. Bucky, Captain America, Human Torch, “Secrets Behind the Comics” editorial material ©2013 respective copyright holder. Art by Jack Kirby & Joe Simon. ©2013 Marvel Characters, Inc. Ullor maximusto optatemo ilit landiorum natecto doluptae. Agnis ut alis maios vel eum voluptas ea vene maximus volupta et ea ne porro te vendant magnisi tionem. niatiassi quatur, te pe inimus volupidisti Sa cum eaqui derfero blab ipsustium eos re, sitat id quatia sitatis exernatas et aut acipsa estibust exerest aut quam ventis fugit oditate rest, seque pro velique lique ium voluptatur, illaccae. Ga. Boratescimus voluptatis et velit alignam faccae niendiorem sequas magnam re arum vent expernaturis vendigenis magnis doluptatis sae nossum ad dit dolum nus dolecat estest, si consequ es et volorio nsedit rere aut ese nimolorrum asperae. It occusda nat. 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Gitat fugiti doloria et moluptateste voluptas quiatus et ad et am doluptatus et aut re maximpor accaboria dolorpor si dis si omnihite non rem viduscia dolupit etustot atempore, ut re dendips anihici dolorem odicium in- ilis voloris magnisint volorepero et que ellores aut quis natur a doluptatur, quas custi rempore hendit vollent lis eum fugit voloreiunt estio. Et aliquo voluptatus mint et volut arci aut eaquis velit lisquid elibusc iatent quam, cia pa et hiliquatur assimus eat velendusam fugit quo quod min nonecus min aligendiam velignam sitatur? Tum ut oditet earum et lantia dolupta tiuntius rehent unt earum ea consedis dolupta dolest, ommo velendi gnimodi simento aut faces arum facimet escipsunto te doloremperum fugiatiis natet assunt tatemqu ibeaquiam, apernate pa nihilit reictem volorem adi renis quo odit etur alignis auta imilign ihicil incto dis aut ium rehenis intusdam qui tem. fugiatur audignatem hilloreperum sequae mo quam, odi atem. Rio eum utam by Jon B. Cooke • Intro Art by Alex Ross Hita sinus et volestis sit ipsus eossit fugitemperum fuga. Nam cone do- fugia comnihilis accatet dernat. with Patrick Ford luptat la auta aut doluptatur, ex era qui doloribusda dit, tectis as ariberi tem Libus. Aliae nit, earuptatem quiam et aut voluptat lam, eturem quistis se- 36 #1 • Spring 2013 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 37 which once spawned some dateline: aushenker crazy, impossible contortions in super-hero books such as Power Man and Ghost Rider, and stirred up Marvel’s letter columns (pro and con) for The Mexican Sunset of the Boston-born artist. By all accounts, Robbins was always professional, albeit uneasy, drawing the “Marvel Way.” In an interview with Frank Robbins Jim Shooter in Back Issue #20 (for this writer’s piece on The Fran Rowe Robbins and friends discuss the final years of the renowned artist/writer Human Fly), the former Marvel editor-in-chief admitted that by MICHAEL AUSHENKER CBC Associate Editor because the books were there. I knew about Johnny Hazard Robbins did not really fit in and Scorchy Smith. But I didn’t know about any of the other aesthetically with the Marvel In the 1970s, polarizing artist Frank Robbins stuff [such as The Invaders, The Human Fly, etc.]. house style. And yet, based simultaneously astounded and repelled I was so unaware about how popular he had on Robbins’ reputation as mainstream comic book readers with his been.” a syndicated strip artist, anatomically flipped-out work on such “The other painters down there Shooter was moved to make series as Captain America and The knew [Frank] as a painter,” said sure he continued to get work, Invaders at Marvel, and DC’s The longtime Archie Comics artist Stan as his eccentric brilliance Shadow and Detective Comics (in Goldberg. “He didn’t stress it that pored through his super-hero which he created Man-Bat). The much that he had a career in work. Robbins had many late artist brought to such features comics. He didn’t make a big deal high-powered fans within the as The Human Fly and “Legion about it.” Bullpen, including Marvel’s art of Monsters” a cartoony flair he What Robbins was not through director, the legendary artist had developed while working on with, however, was the arts, with of Amazing Spider-Man, John the syndicated comic strip Johnny which the dynamic artist had a Romita. Batman, Man-Bat ©2013 DC Comics. Hazard, heavily inspired by mentor lifelong love affair. Depicting life as “He was just as much a The Robbins enjoyed San Above left: With writer Denny figure Milton Caniff. Robbins even he saw it around his quaint Mexican fan as anybody else,” Gold- Miguel’s laid-back pace. O’Neil, Frank Robbins obviously wrote classic stories for other artists, village, Robbins took to the canvas with berg said. “Everybody walked The Shadow ©2013 Condé Nast. had a ball drawing the adven- such as his famous brushstrokes that remained unapologeti- everywhere,” Fran recalled. “We can go to all the restaurants and clubs within 10-15 tures of The Shadow (here the Batman #250 campfire cally, unmistakably Robbins-style, even if his cover of #5, June-July 1974). tale, “The Batman subject matter had switched from a pair of human minutes.” It seems natural that Robbins turned to painting in Above: Frank was also a fine Nobody Knows,” torches combating Nazi man-monsters to the graceful, poet- Located four and one-half miles northwest of Mexico comics writer, as evidenced by and a few “Unknown ic grandiosity of a matador or a ballet dancer in motion. City, the small town of San Miguel de Allende was, appro- retirement. What may not be as expected is that Robbins was, in his widow’s words, “the musical guru of the City of his creation of Man-Bat. Here’s Soldier” missions, If anyone writes priately, something of an artist’s colony when Frank Robbins the splash to Detective Comics San Miguel.” Robbins enjoyed jazz, pop and opera, and he and as an artist, he a coffee table book settled down circa 1989. #429, Nov. ’72, also drawn by took some throwaway about the man, it “He was extremely happy in Mexico,” Stan Goldberg had myriad albums in the collection of the local library there, Robbins. Below: As artist, licensed properties, should be titled Love said. “He was part of the community down there.” where they remain still. Music, after all, was an intrinsic part Robbins had a memorable run such as Marvel’s Man It or Hate It: The Art Still friends today with Fran Rowe Robbins, Goldberg re- of his artistic process when creating comic books. on The Invaders. Here is his From Atlantis, and of Frank Robbins. members socializing with a very happy couple while visiting “When he was drawing, when he was cartooning, he entry for The Mighty Marvel breathed animated Flamboyant and Mexico in February 1994. Bicentennial Calendar (1976) life into these other- colorful, Robbins’ “She was a teacher from upstate New York who had featuring that title’s Golden Age wise rote comic-book late-period art, while stopped teaching and moved down there,” Goldberg said of heroes. Above: A self-caricature by adaptations of B-level more abstract than Rowe. cartoonist Franklin Robbins. entertainment prop- his Marvel or DC When Robbins met Fran, she was staging play readings erties. output, retains the and directing theater in San Miguel. But understand figurative elasticity “I taught English there,” she said. “I met Frank while I this: By the time was directing a play reading of Amadeus.” Frank Robbins In the late 1980s, Robbins had been healing from the retired to Mexico, death of his longtime life partner when his path crossed Fran in the late 1980s, Rowe’s. frank robbins: the final years the final robbins: frank where he spent “His wife had died two years before I met him,” his sec- his final five years, ond wife recalled. “We were together for about five years. he was done with We had a wonderful marriage. It was a big loss when he comics. Done. As in: died, let me tell you.” Never looking back It was only in 2011 when Fran Robbins finally packed it up again. and moved back to the United States, due to health reasons “When he finally connected to atmospheric conditions in Mexico. retired, he retired. “I was there for 21 years,” she said. “Unfortunately, at Right top and middle: Fran That was it!” Fran 6,500 feet, the air is very thin… I had to move back to sea Rowe Robbins and Frank Rowe Robbins,’ level. I didn’t want to leave, but I had to.” Robbins during their 1980s-90s his widow, told Now a resident of Vero Beach in Florida’s West Palm Mexican romance and marriage Comic Book Creator (courtesy of Fran). Bottom Beach, Fran sounds misty-eyed for her previous life south of right: Renowned Archie car- in an exclusive the border. toonist Stan Goldberg and his interview this past “We had a gorgeous Casa de los Padres, built in 1710. A friend Frank Robbins, Mexico, October. “Frank Colonial house with a patio and garden, and 20-30 foot ceil- 1994 (courtesy of Stan and his very rarely talked ings,” she recalled. The house had a courtyard and shared son Bennett). about cartooning. I the wall with the adjacent Oratorio Church. “When we knew about Batman looked out the bedroom, we saw these gorgeous towers.” Captain America & Bucky ©2013 Marvel Characters, Inc. Sub-Mariner, Toro, The Human Torch,

10 #1 • Spring 2013 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 11 Johnny Hazard ©2013 King Features Syndicate. All paintings ©2013 the Estate of Franklin Robbins. listened to music,” Clockwise from above: Paint- Fran Robbins said. ings by Frank Robbins include “It was, in general, michael aushenker “Club Mama Mia,” “Dancer,” classical music. “Loss of Youth,” and “¡Hay His knowledge Toro!,” all rendered during his was very exten- Mexican years. Please visit sive. He knew all www.frankrobbinsartist.com the pop singers: for many more lovely examples. Frank Sinatra, Courtesy of Fran Rowe Robbins. perhaps detached from the industry, Fran Robbins suggests, about three years before Frank died.” Rosemary Clooney, Above: Perhaps Frank Robbins’ Mel Torme… He had to do with an ugly episode taking place in the years Fran shakes her head musing over the episode. greatest claim to fame is his knew all of them, before his death. “A cartoonist,” she pondered rhetorically. “Why would long-running syndicated adven- the clubs in New “Frank had a bad situation with a stalker,” Fran said. anyone want to stalk a cartoonist?” ture comic strip Johnny Hazard. York City, Harry “This stalker followed him from New York to Mexico. Frank Here is his Dec. 3, 1961 Sunday. Belafonte. He really kept the envelopes and photos. He was frightened. He was Courtesy of Heritage Auctions knew music.” scared. The guy got a hold of his phone number and Frank Below: Prior to Johnny Hazard, Robbins’ had to change his number. This man was suggesting all Franklin “Frank” Robbins entered the world on Septem- Frank worked as comic strip daily life centered these revisions to Frank’s work and had all these characters ber 9, 1917 in Boston. He started drawing when he was just artist on the renowned Noel around music he came up with that he wanted to discussed with Frank.” three years old. Growing up in a New England settlement Sickles’ creation, Sorchy Smith, appreciation. The intrusion on Robbins’ privacy escalated until,“all of a house, he learned about Michelangelo and Leonardo da between 1939-44. The original “In the after- sudden, he just stopped, either he was put in an institution or Vinci. He discovered drawing.” art, dated March 22 (year unde- noon, they had he died,” Fran theorized. “The things we got in the mail were “He knew how to make gesso,” Fran Robbins said. “He termined), is inscribed to fellow comida — a dinner all postmarked from Dallas. Then he showed up in Mexico.” knew how to make his own paints. He went to art school, he cartoonist Gill Fox! Courtesy of in the middle of the day,” Fran said. “In the afternoon, he lis- Robbins enjoyed contemporary films as well. Fran continued, “It was scary. It was hairy for about sev- was very classically trained. In the height of the Depression, Heritage Auctions. tened to music for two hours. He would just sit there, smoke “We went to the movies often,” she continued. “There en years. There was nothing the cops could do. It stopped when this was considered frivolous. He ended up support- years the final robbins: frank a pipe, and listen to music.” was only one theatre. There were a lot of movies on televi- Goldberg recalled how Robbins also enjoyed a glass of sion that he was able to tape… He loved Hitchcock, John mescal, “the poor man’s tequila with the worm at the bottom Ford, Orson Welles, Chaplin. He liked Spielberg, Scorsese, of the glass.” Billy Wilder. He loved all the Italian movie actors. He thought Point of interest: “All the houses [in San Miguel], they the most beautiful actress was Ava Gardner. He thought she utilized their roofs,” Goldberg said. So it was not uncommon was more beautiful than Elizabeth Taylor. He loved Marilyn to have an after-dinner drink with Robbins on the roof of his Monroe, especially in films such as [Wilder’s] Some Like It house. Hot. Frank was a big buff.” “People don’t realize this,” Goldberg said, “but Frank The one medium he did not indulge in during his final was not only a great artist, he was a great fencer, a great years? The one he made his name on. inventor, he loved classical music. He was a true renais- “He very rarely talked about his own work,” Fran Robbins sance man.” said. “[Artistically], he was interested in bodies in motion. It Robbins was also a passionate cinephile. “He read a lot isn’t just simple lines. It’s a lot of it was action.” and he watched movies,” his second wife reported. “We had Beyond meeting with the occasional cartoonist, such as tapes of 600 to 700 movies. He loved Kurosawa. He had a col- Goldberg, who would sweep through town, Robbins stayed lection of Japanese armor. He loved Fellini, Italian directors, clear of the comic book world, including conventions and foreign, Goddard, the noir films. He loved them all.” cartoonist events, by the early ‘90s. Part of the reason he Scorchy Smith ©2013 Associated Press News Features. 12 #1 • Spring 2013 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 13 michael aushenker

ing his mother by the time he was 14. She worked for a hat was a very private guy. He was a cartoonist’s cartoonist. He Goldberg spent some time with Frank a mere nine create a similar aviation-adventure strip, Johnny Hazard, on Batman ©2013 DC Comics. Johnny Hazard ©2013 King Features Syndicate. Above spread: Photos from the maker. Then they moved to New York and he started to do was low key and laid back. If one were to be asked about months before the Johnny Hazard cartoonist passed away. which Robbins enjoyed a decades-long run that overlapped late Jud Hurd’s unforgettable other things that were impressive. He painted billboards in a him, they couldn’t talk about it.” When Goldberg arrived at Robbins’ home, he found Frank with his mainstream comic-book work. magazine, Cartoonist PROfiles, movie theater. Lobby paintings at Radio City Music Hall. He When asked if Robbins had much of a sense of humor or on his shortwave radio. It was via that shortwave where “he By the late 1960s, Robbins had landed at DC Comics, issues #8 and 42, which also did the murals.” personality, Hasen shot back with an emphatic “No!” and heard that Jack Kirby had died,” Goldberg reported. where he initially wrote and later drew a number of features included features on Frank Of Jewish descent, Robbins did not connect profoundly then laughed. In general, Goldberg learned, Robbins had moved to into the mid-’70s. Though Goldberg said “Frank didn’t like Robbins. These pix capture the with his heritage beyond the most casual of ways. “Frank was a marvelous painter!” Goldberg said. “He Mexico because “he wanted to be left alone. He had a very DC,” Robbins produced impressive scripts for Batman, The prolific artist/writer simultane- “He was a cultural Jew,” Fran Robbins said of her late was a great artist. Hasen, his dear friend, said that Frank close-knit handful of people as a gringo living his life down Flash and Superboy, as well as contributing some knockout ously working on his “Batman” husband. Of course, in the immigrant-driven world of comics’ Robbins one of the greatest artists, it’s just too bad he had in Mexico.” Yet Robbins was by no means aloof. He just artwork on Batman, Detective Comics, The Shadow, and for features and syndicated daily comic strip Johnny Hazard. Golden Age, many of his closest cartoonist friends were to be a Milton Caniff clone,” Goldberg said. “He could have yearned to socialize amid a different scene. the mystery anthology titles. When Robbins cold-called DC’s Courtesy of John Heebink. Jewish. “He wasn’t a religious Jew at all, but he was a hu- been his own man. He was that great. In my eyes, he was Goldberg remembers the Bohemian environs inside competition in 1974 to ask if they could use his help, Marvel manist. He studied at the National Academy of Design, then great.” Robbins’ Mexican hacenda.“He painted big paintings of jazz production manager John Verpoorten reportedly said, “How designed murals for a children’s studio at NBC. Even when The late Jerry Robinson, co-creator of the Batman musicians,” the cartoonist remembered. “He had pictures on fast can you get over here?” he was young, he had a talent. He was a prodigy, obviously.” mythos, was another close friend of Robbins. “Frank and him the wall that he did when he was seven and eight years old.” Robbins transitioned to Marvel with early work that

Robbins seemed to be very much a product of his times. were very, very, very close,” Goldberg said. “Jerry told me Goldberg remains agog trying to describe the impression included art for “Morbius the Living Vampire,” Power Man, years the final robbins: frank “He used to smoke cigarettes,” Fran said. “That was a the story, the first official job in ‘38, ‘39, for Look magazine, Robbins’ monster canvases had on him. “It would explode Ghost Rider and Captain America before joining writer Roy time when everyone smoked. He used to use a long cigarette was a job that Frank was supposed to do but he was very off of the wall,” Goldberg said. “It’s hard to describe his Thomas for a lengthy stay as penciller on The Invaders holder. The last twenty years of his life, he didn’t smoke busy. So he passed it onto Jerry. Jerry remembered that style. It wasn’t his Milton Caniff style, that’s for sure. He had (roughly dividing the issues with another Caniff disciple, Lee cigarettes.” he gave him his first very big professional job. Robbins also that drummer, he captured him in three or four shots in one Elias), and collaborating with writer Bill Mantlo on short-lived Robbins, whom many editors and colleagues accused of worked with Alex Toth. Robin Snyder asked Alex Toth to do a painting.” books Man from Atlantis and The Human Fly (the latter for aping Caniff, befriended his hero. “Milt Caniff was a friend,” whole feature on Robbins.” The kinetic motion of the figures, the color pallette, and which Elias also drew issues). Producing his daily comic Fran Robbins said. “He really admired Caniff. Who didn’t?” the multiple, quasi-Cubist depictions of figures strayed from strip even as he pumped out a prolific monthly comic-book Something of a mystery man in the comic book indus- Robbins’ relatively ham-strung renditions of superheroes output, Robbins wrapped up Johnny Hazard in 1977 (after a try, Robbins rarely socialized with other cartoonists, a fact colored in Ben-Day dots. Robbins’ latter artwork might be 33-year or so run!) while still employed by Marvel. reinforced by the reality that Robbins, like most of his ilk, Stan Goldberg and his wife love to travel. And so, in compared to something akin to Marcel Duchamp’s seminal Despite being something of a square peg during the freelanced from home. Two artists whom did consider Rob- February of 1994, the Goldbergs passed through San Miguel 1912 canvas “Nude Descending a Staircase, No. 2.” Bronze Age’s super-hero comic-book scene — as, again, bins friends included Golden Age comics artist and Dondi while on vacation in Mexico. The Archie cartoonist had “He would’ve loved to have been a serious painter but Robbins was both loved and loathed by comic book fandom co-creator Irwin Hasen and Goldberg. heard Robbins lived in the village, so he found a phone direc- he had to make a living,” Goldberg said. Hence, a career in during the 1970s — Goldberg insists Robbins did not leave tory, took a stab, and bingo! “There, in English, there it was: comics. As a first-time syndicated cartoonist, Robbins took the industry angry. “He wasn’t bitter, [just resigned],” Gold- “He was a very, very private serious man,” Hasen, who ‘Franklin Robbins,’” Goldberg exclaimed. over Scorchy Smith in 1939 after Bert Christman (co-creator berg opined. As if to ask himself, “Why am I knocking myself knew Robbins from National Cartoonist Society meetings When Goldberg reached out to Robbins, the former of DC’s Sandman soon thereafter) left the legendary Noel out here?” decades ago, told CBC last October. “Very little can be said recalled, “He knew I was a cartoonist in town and he said, Sickles-created strip. Robbins’ run on Scorchy proved so about him. He was a great inventor and a great artist. He ‘How fast can you come over?’ impressive, King Features Syndicate hired him in 1944 to

14 #1 • Spring 2013 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 15 within ten or 15 minutes. What took time for him was just going to operate at 5:00 in the morning. He had so much pain. looking at it and deciding what he was going to do with it. I went and I tried to get him a shot of morphine. That’s the The whole image was there already.” only thing that might have helped. He had a heart attack and He also simultaneously worked on multiple paintings. he died.” “He’d get an idea for something else, so he’d put the other A contributor in his death could have been that medi- painting aside and work on another one,” she said. cal care in Mexico was, perhaps, not as sophisticated or In San Miguel, Frank and Fran lived a good life together. advanced as that of his native U.S., and that not enough “We used to go out and socialize with musicians a lot,” she people were staffed at San Miguel’s facility. “This was a very recalled. tiny hospital,” Fran recalled. “His doctor was there. He died Another little-known fact about Robbins: he was some- while his doctor was at dinner.” thing of an electronics whiz. Right after he heard that Robbins had died, Goldberg sent “We had a sound system that was second to none,” Fran an obituary he wrote to the local newspaper in San Miguel. Robbins recalled. “He created a single cone speaker that Goldberg did not attend the funeral and it was unlikely he was astonishing. It was very pure sound, very clear. wonder- could have even if he had tried, as the burial happened very ful, wonderful. he knew a lot about sound. He had boxes and soon after Robbins’ demise. boxes of research about sound. “There’s a law in Mexico,” Fran Robbins explained, “He did a lot of recording for the library, tape to tape, CD “[that] you’re buried within a day after you die. After 24 to tape. People would donate their collections to the local hours, you’re buried. I think that’s true in a lot of warm library.” As did Frank. He lent his collection to the librarian countries.” there, Theresa Malakoff. Robbins’ widow describes her late husband’s funeral “His real contribution to the town was a musical one,” as intimate and tasteful. “There was some music that was Robbins’ wife said. “He always did my music, my sound played,” she said. “We had a little get together at the house effects. He also was the one with the expertise.” afterwards. It was just so fast and shocking.” Man-Thing, Ghost Rider, Morbius, and Werewolf By Night ©2013 Marvel Characters, Inc. Fran can still picture the poster Robbins did for her chari- Frank Robbins was buried in the Panteon. ty production of the musical play Guys and Dolls. “There is an English section there and he has a crypt,” “He did a drawing for Ibsen’s The Ghosts, a play that Fran revealed. “There were many people I talked to after takes place in this isolated Scandanavian place. He created Frank died. There were some really nice tributes to him in a big mountain on an icy blue field.” cartoonist magazines, weeklies, annuals. I was very grateful “I went to a party at his house when the production was for the outpouring.” over,” Goldberg recalled. “[Fran] invited many people over to “He was the best at what he did,” Goldberg said of the the house.” great 20th-century cartoonist he called his friend. “The ener- The Robbinses were an active couple. “We did a lot of gy, the action,” despite the fact that many compared his style walking there and swimming,” she said. “There was a very too much to Caniff’s for his comic-book work to be taken as good pool. we had a hot springs there. There were some seriously. “When you’re the first guy doing it, and then Frank tennis courts. He didn’t play tennis. but mostly what people comes along it’s always the first guy.” do was walk.” Goldberg feels blessed he got the opportunity to spend To the second and final Mrs. Robbins, Frank seemed to some time with Robbins, an artist he so admired, mere be just short of a super-hero. “He was an expert marksman,” months before the Invaders artist died. Fran said. “He had an air gun. He was a fencer. He could “No question!” Goldberg said emphatically. “I have been The Human Fly ©2013 the respective copyright holder. also shoot arrows. He was a good swimmer. He was truly a very fortunate that I got to go to this little town for 20 years Retiring in Mexico hardly came out of the blue for Frank Renaissance man.” and I had this chance to spend time with this idol of mine.” Above: Yeah, if you’re a Robbins. “He used to vacation in Mexico for many, many As detached as Robbins had become regarding his dedicated Aushenker reader, years,” said Fran Robbins. When he finally settled down in profession in his final year on this planet, perhaps the whole you no doubt know he’s an San Miguel, he felt at home among the vibrant regulars at damn thing mattered just a smidgen, in the end. unabashed Human Fly freak and Mama Mia, a restaurant and music club in town which fed Frank Robbins passed away on November 28, 1994. “He was great with me,” Goldberg said. “It’s strange. He Michael Aushenker, associate editor of Comic Book Creator, is writer/ likely have already seen this his imagination. Unfortunately, it was a death that could have been avoided. didn’t want to get involved in comics, but he asked me a lot cartoonist behind the “El Gato, Crime Mangler” series, “Those Unstop- Above: Steve Gan ably inks treasure, Frank Robbins pencils “There were a lot of artists there, photographers, a lot “He had a kidney stone,” Fran Robbins said. “We went to the of questions [about what was going on in the industry].” pable Rogues,” and “Silly Goose” (CartoonFlophouse.com), and he has Frank Robbins on the opening for an unpublished Human of ex-pats,” she said of the mix of Americans, Canadians, emergency room. He had an attack around 7 p.m. They were written issues of Bart Simpson (Bongo) and Gumby’s Gang Starring Pokey page of Marvel Premiere #28 Fly cover, which appeared in French and Germans living in On September 8-15, 2012, the Bordello Gallery in San (Gumby). The first article he ever wrote was forBack Issue on The Human (Feb. 1976), which introduced Michael’s definitive article, Miguel presented a posthumous exhibition of Robbins’ paint- Fly ( #20), and Aushenker is cartoonist and editor of the forthcoming that team terrible, the Legion “The Human Fly: Pretty Fly for town. “He did a really inter- ings. They can also be viewed at and/or purchased through comic book The New Adventures of the Human Fly. A Human Fly movie is of Monsters! a Real Guy,” gracing our sister esting painting of Mama Mia. FrankRobbinsArtist.com. also in development. Visit www.thehumanflymovie.com. magazine Back Issue’s #20 (Feb. He painted Don Clay playing 2007) ish. We wanted to share the congas. He painted Peta not only to plug our Associate Glen, with her blond hair, with Editor’s previous work, but also a glass of scotch on top of as an example of Frank Robbins’ the piano, a lot of musicians simulataneously charming and smoking… you can just feel exasperating anatomy, with very atmosphere. They were arms and legs akimbo, often regulars. They were people bent at fantastical angles! who either were retired or Inset Right: Frank Robbins that just sort of floated into contributed this hand-lettered San Miguel and never left. mini-autobiography for a Guys who escaped the Viet- National Cartoonist Society an- nam draft. They sort of settled nual. Courtesy of John Heebink in and had a sympathetic community there.” Fran remembers watching her late husband attack the canvas with gusto. “He was very fast,” she said. “When he painted big pictures too, he worked on a grid. He could put it on a grid Johnny Hazard ©2013 King Features Syndicate. 16 #1 • Spring 2013 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 17 irving on the inside An Evening With

Denny & Neal Right Courtesy of Heritage Auctions, a layout for the cover The legendary Adams-O’Neil comics team discuss social relevancy in their ’70s work of the first Green Lantern/Green Arrow collection published by Christopher: No, he’s going to be photographing because Paperback Library in 1972. Note he’s a shutterbug… they subsequently swapped Neal: Ohhh. the back and front covers for Seth: He does the talking and I take the pictures. the printed edition. Also check out the ultimately unused Christopher: I do the writing and he creates the pictures. cover blurb, “Comix That Give a [To Dennis and Neal] You guys can relate, right? [laughter] Damn!” You’ll find the unused Anyway, Seth and I started a website called GraphicNYC cover art, featuring a different four or five years ago and the culmination of our artist-writ- rendition of Dr. Martin Luther er-creator profiles is Leaping Tall Buildings: The Origins King, Jr., on a following page. of American Comics, which has about 50 or 60 creators, Art, of course, is by Neal at least, including these two handsome gentlemen sitting Adams. right next to me: Denny O’Neil and Neal Adams. [applause]

Let’s get started. Do you want to try and make some time for ©2013 DC Comics. questions? Then there’s going to be a quick signing with Neal and Denny. Okay. They need no introduction but I am going to introduce them anyway. Dennis O’Neil was born in 1939, the same year that Batman first swooped over the rooftops of Gotham City in Detective Comics #27. While working as a newspaper reporter in Cape Girardeau, Michigan — Dennis O’Neil: Missouri. Christopher: Missouri? Oh! I’m ashamed! I’m sorry. Inset left: Covers for the first Neal: Scratch that out. Batman and Green Lantern Christopher: I don’t have a pen, unfortunately. I’ll just use O’Neil/Adams collaborations, my fingernail. [Neal hands him a pen] Thank you. Okay: Cape samples – every week I had more samples – so they got him on the phone. And Joe Simon Photo ©2013 Seth Kushner. Detective Comics #395 (Jan. Girardeau, Missouri. says, “Kid, I’m going to do you a big favor: I’m not going to use your work.” [laughter] “It’s good but get a real job doing something real. There won’t be comic books in a year.” ’70) and GL #76 (Apr. ’70). Moderated by CHRISTOPHER IRVING CBC Contributing Editor A meeting with upcoming comic book writer and editor Below: Detail from the Neal Above: Dennis O’Neil, writer Roy Thomas led Denny to move to New York to write comics. Christopher: I actually asked about that because, besides being the hand on our cover (left), and Neal Adams, artist, Adams (pencils) and Berni When writer Dennis O’Neil and artist Neal Adams teamed He started writing for Marvel and then became a mainstay at [of Leaping Tall Buildings] – we have a very special guest. [To audience shake hands at the Big Event in Wrightson (inks) Batman #241 up in the early 1970s, their take on Batman restored the Dark Charlton Comics. He later went to DC Comics in 1968 with his member] Emily? Can you please stand? Joe Simon’s granddaughter (May ’72) cover. (Yep, Ye Ed this portrait by Seth Kushner. Knight to his brooding roots, and established the version Emily came here. Everyone give her a round of applause. C’mon, All photos of the talk are used [Charlton] editor Dick Giordano. confesses to flopping the art!) that is reflected in the recent films. Just as importantly, everybody! [applause] with his kind permission. Neal Adams brought an unprecedented sense of realism they introduced social relevance into super-hero comics to super-hero art of the 1960s, stemming out of his prior work Neal: [To Emily] Your grandpa told me he was going to do with Green Lantern/Green Arrow, most famously with the in advertising and also his artwork on the Ben Casey comic me a favor by not giving me work and he said, ‘Kid, you’re drug abuse issues, in the process elevating super-heroes strip — not going to understand it now, but this is the biggest to a more adult, earthbound level. A former crime reporter, Neal: And Archie. favor anybody could do for you. Comics will not exist O’Neil brought real-world grit to the genre, while Adams’ Christopher: That’s right. How many Archie stories did in America in a year.” [laughter] So the guys at Ar- art style and design elicited both a breaktaking realism and you do? chie gave me Archie pages to do. Pitiful. “Comics dynamism rarely found in the super-hero comic book. O’Neil Neal: Just some pages. Just a few. are doomed!” [laughter] I love your grandpa! I dennis o’neil & neal adams edited the Batman line at DC for a number of years. Adams Christopher: Real quick: Just as an aside. Neal, who did just want you to understand that he didn’t give continues to draw and write comics, most recently with DC’s you meet with when you first went to Archie? me work. ©2013 DC Comics. Batman: Odyssey series, and is currently Neal: His name is Gorelick. Victor Christopher: So, I — drawing The First X-Men for Marvel, Gorelick. Neal: Wait a second! I have an end to the co-written with Christos Gage. Leaping Christopher: There was someone story! [laughter] Tall Buildings: The Origins of American else working there who first warned you Christopher: Please, Neal! Comics (Powerhouse Publishing) writer away from comics. Neal: It’s a great story. [To Emily] You’re Inset right: Seth Kushner’s Christopher Irving and photographer Neal: You’re talking about Joe Simon? hearing this for the first time, right? After photo of Joe Simon’s drawing Seth Kushner, and Housing Works Book- I didn’t meet Joe Simon. They called awhile I became Neal Adams. It took me hand and a certain Big Apple store Café reunited O’Neil and Adams him on the phone because they took a bunch of years. You know, the guy in landmark grace the cover of for a special benefit panel on social pity on me because I was such a sad the white hat on the horse who saved his and writer Christopher relevancy in comics. This talk took place case. I went up there three or four times everybody’s career and all the rest of it. Irving’s smash tome, Leaping before an audience on July 17, 2012, at because Jack Kirby and Joe Simon were So Joe Simon, your grandpa, comes up to Tall Buildings: The Origins of the SoHo café. doing The Adventures of the Fly and “The DC Comics and he’s heard of my reputation the American Comics, available Shield.” I didn’t go up there to work for with original art and all the rest of it. He says, in bookstores and comic shops Christopher Irving: Seth and I — Archie; I went there to see Jack Kirby. “Neal, I’ve got to talk to you about this. I’m and via their publisher at www. Seth, say hello to the people. Joe Simon didn’t come in though they trying to get the rights back for Captain America powerhousebooks.com. Many Seth Kushner: Hello. Thanks for but I don’t know what process to follow. You’re thanks to our chums for the said he would come in every Thursday, coming tonight. obviously know more than anybody on earth ©2013 DC Comics. words and pictures here! but he didn’t come in. I came in every Neal Adams: about it, so how do I do that?” I said, “Come on to Doesn’t Seth get a chair? week to try to get work and I brought my ©2013 DC Comics. ©2013 Christopher Irving & Seth Kushner. 18 #1 • Spring 2013 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 19 leaving, right? And he thanked me and I realized, stopped Dennis: When I wrote “Secret of the Waiting Graves,” the him, and said, “Mr. Simon, can I buy you a second cup of mission, as I chose to take it, was to do something better. coffee? I have another story to tell you.” [chuckles] “You Comics had been, kind of half-heartedly, trying to follow turned me down when I was a teenager.” “No!” [laughter] the path of the Adam West TV show, which was a comedic Okay, that was it. take on super-heroes and Batman. Satirical. And I had no Christopher: That’s a great story. So, leading up to quarrel with that. That’s a way to interpret it but I don’t think January 1970’s issue of Detective Comics [#395], “The Secret very many of the comic-book guys really got camp. I talked of the Waiting Graves,” which teamed up Denny and Neal in to Stan Lee the morning after the first show and I asked the first of their atmospheric and very gothic Batman tales. him what he thought of it and he said, “I liked the little bit of Neal had previously drawn Batman in The Brave and the animation in the beginning, but the rest of it, no.” But, none- Bold, including an issue which had the newly redesigned theless, because it was having a positive effect on sales, Green Arrow, courtesy of Mr. Adams here. A question I have the comic-book guys tried to do camp. But then it was over for you, Neal, is: You worked primarily with writer Bob Haney like that. The TV show lasted two years as a semi-weekly on The Brave and the Bold. serialized thing and then it limped into its third year and it Neal: Right. was cut. Julie said we’re obviously going to continue to Christopher: How was your work with Bob different from publish Batman (though Detective Comics may have been on your work with Denny? a slippery slope at that point). So, what I thought we did was Neal: I was not used to comics being written realistically. simply take it back to what Bill Finger and Bob Kane did in I was used to comics being written in that ’50s style. I was 1939. [To Chris] Detective #27 was May 1939, by the way, also aware of Dick Giordano bringing Denny O’Neil to DC Comics the same month I was born. [laughter] ©2013 DC Comics. but I was not aware of his history and how he got to things. Neal: Wouldn’t you also say Jerry Robinson? But in talking with Denny, it seemed to me he was a child Dennis: I was being polite. [chuckles] You could add a few of the ’60s – the marching on Washington and the Chicago other names in there. Seven trial – and he seemed to be into that stuff. Bob Haney Christopher: [Deadpan] It wasn’t all Bob Kane? was into comics and he did terrific stories. All I asked him to Neal: No. want Bob Kane to draw comic books for too long; he’s just do was to make the stories happen at night and I put a better Dennis: Are there any Time-Warner executives in the going to draw crap. Then he’s going to hire ghosts to draw Above: Finals panels for the cape on Batman and gave him a realistic anatomy. I had a crowd? [laughter] crap, so you get a lot of crap. Then they’re going to try to first collaboration of Dennis great time working with Bob, but my goal was to work with [To Neal] What you and I did was… strongly implicit in save it and then the TV show came along and they did crap. O’Neil and Neal Adams, “The Secret of the Waiting Graves,” Julie Schwartz, the science-fiction editor-god of DC Comics. Batman, after the first issue, after the origin… but wasn’t So the question was with Julie Schwartz, how do we avoid Detective Comics #395 (Jan. He said, “I got this guy, Denny O’Neil, whom I am stealing very much to emphasize. I got the idea from reading an doing crap? Maybe we should get some talented people to 1970). from Dick Giordano.” I said, “Is he going to write that stupid essay by Alfred Bester. Does anybody in this room not know do it. Du’oh! [rising laughter] So they did and we didn’t do Batman I see on television? Because that’s not what I want who Alfred Bester was? You can go to hell if you don’t. crap any more. I mean it really comes down to that. Denny to do.” Julie said, “No. He writes realistically.” [laughter] and I picked up where Jerry Robinson had left off. We did I don’t think we did clown-villains for five or six stories, Christopher: No pressure. the same Batman. We can’t say we did a better Batman, we did we, Denny? Finally, we did The Joker. He wrote realistic Dennis: Arguably, Bester was the best science-fiction didn’t even do a more original Batman. We basically did The stories about people and events that had nothing to do with writer in the 20th century and he was a guy who got his start Batman. The Mad Hatter or Two-Face or Clay-Man, or whatever in comics. He wrote an essay for Science-Fiction Writers I remember Julie Schwartz, before we started this little christopher irving the hell that was; he wrote stories about people. He wrote of America magazine about writing for obsessed charac- partnership, stopped me in the hallway when I was doing stories that delved into the Orson Welles-type character that ters. I read that and realized that’s the psychological key to Batman in The Brave and the Bold and ask, “Why do you you might find in good, classic drama. He wrote “The Secret Batman: He’s never gotten over seeing his parents killed. I think you know how to do Batman and we don’t?” I said, of the Waiting Graves,” about flowers that keep you young. don’t think I would have come up with that if Bill Finger had “Julie, it’s really not just me — it’s me and just about every He wrote comics stories that other people didn’t do because not written that seventh story [“The Batman Wars Against kid in America. The only people who don’t seem to know Poster ©2013 Seth Kushner & Christopher Irving. Batman DC Comics. he came from a place that really wasn’t that comic-book the Dirigible of Doom,” Detective Comics #33, which contains what Batman is all about is you guys here at DC Comics.” the coffee room.” We went to the coffee room and I gave genre. Not that he didn’t understand it; he’s written super-he- the origin of the character], it was always strongly implicit, [laughter] Above: Poster for the charity him the phone numbers and cards of two lawyers, neither ro characters most of his life. But he had that gritty, realistic but not very much explicit and then gone for years at a time. Dennis: Among other things, they were trying to duck the event as designed by Seth of whom charge money — I know, this is fantasy, right? style that you wanted to see in Batman. [To Neal] So what you and I did was… I kind of have a false heat that came with the witch hunts. There was no such Kushner (and, natch, featuring [laughter] — I gave him these cards and I gave him some Christopher: Denny, what was it like to work with Neal memory, but this is what is should have been— thing as an attempt at, say, consistency at characterization. the shutterbug’s pix, as well). advice, like sending bills to people who you think owe money as compared to, say, Irv Novick, who was also drawing Neal: We went back to the origin and tried to pick it up after The best tool I had when I was editing Batman was the bible, to you and they will send it to the accounting department and Batman? Jerry Robinson let it go and it went to hell. I mean, you don’t which originally when I first wrote it was about four pages the accounting department and now with writers and — are there any accountants my assistants adding to it, here? Accountants have glue it’s currently 30 pages and on their fingers. So if you they’re still using it. Part of it dennis o’neil & neal adams send them a bill, they can’t was, “Look, this is the ball- throw it away. They try to park I’m asking you to play in. throw it away but they can’t Batman does not fight aliens! do it. Because they think one Batman does not time-travel day, ten years later, someone or fight dinosaurs! Here’s the will come and say, “Do you ballpark. Anything I haven’t have a bill from that guy?” say you can’t do, do.” Noth- And they go, “Oh, shit.” So ing like that was ever on the they can’t throw a bill away. radar for a comic book editor You’re going to pile them up before. So Julie Schwartz with these bills and they’;re did a Batman and Murray going to have to pay them Boltinoff did, allowing for eventually or else there’s just sameness in the costume, in Left inset: Batman’s origin going to be this big pile. terms of characterization, a is revealed in this Batman #1 So, anyway, I have this very different Batman. Some (Spr. 1940) page. Art by Bob Right inset: Bob Kane’s long talk with Joe Simon. of them were trying to follow, Kane, words by Bill Finger; and iconic Detective Comics #33 Your grandfather is this very I think, the lead of Mort penciller Neal Adams’s take of same, from Batman #232 (June (Sept. 1939) cover and the tall guy and I look up to him Weisinger’s Superman, what 1971). Script by Denny O’Neil; Neal Adams homage cover, in many ways. So we have I like to think of as “sci- inks by Dick Giordano. Batman #227 (Dec. 1970). this conversation and we’re ence-fiction light.” Y’know, ©2013 DC Comics. ©2013 DC Comics. 20 #1 • Spring 2013 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 21 Neal keeps talking about quality — as well he should — issues at that point. [Actually Gil Kane penciled the previous but [chuckles] was anyone really worried about that at the eight issues, GL #68-75, Dick Dillin #67, Mike Sekowsky 64-66, time? I don’t remember anybody using that word. and Jack Sparling #62-63.—YCE.] Neal: They might have been worried about it if they had Dennis: Was he really? read the comic books but they did not. From editorial on up, Neal: Jack Sparling was working on it. A whole bunch of they didn’t read the comic books. That’s why we got away guys. That’s why it was going down the tubes. It missed Gil with so much. I had a guy come to me with a letter from the Kane. [to audience] Do you know who Gil Kane was? [ap- governor of Florida saying — we had just done a Green Lan- plause and cheers] Green Lantern had lost Gil Kane because tern/Green Arrow story [“And a Child Shall Destroy Them,” Gil Kane had gone on to do Blackmark, the graphic novel. GL #83 (April-May 1971)]— and the governor wrote, “You He was gone and they were willing to give it to anyone who caricaturized Spiro Agnew, the Vice-President of the United wanted it and walked into Julie’s office. I went in and I said, States, in your comic book and made a fool of him! If you “Julie, before you cancel this damn book, how about letting ever do this again, I will see to it that any DC Comics are not me do a few issues?” He said, “I’ve got an idea, kid. I’m go- distributed in the state of Florida.” [laughter] ing to get Denny.” So he got Denny to do it. And, by the way, Dennis: Oh, how things have changed! apparently the Green Arrow character I did in The Brave and Neal: We had already done it. We weren’t going to do a the Bold [“The Senator’s Been Shot,” #83 (Aug.-Sept. 1969)]? second one. So, kind of an empty threat. But the people at Apparently fans loved it but it had no place to go, so I guess DC above editorial, they are the people who came in to me Julie kind of opted it and threw him in with Green Lantern. ©2013 Seth Kushner. with the letter and said, “What’s this about?” “Ahhh, we Dennis: No, that was me. Because we needed a dialectic. publicity people said, “Green Arrow” was obviously an made fun of Spiro Agnew in this comic book. Didn’t you read Neal: Another green guy. [laughs] Above: From left, moderator attempt to cash in on Batman’s popularity. He had a kid it?” [laughter] “Oh!” They had no idea. That’s how we got Dennis: We needed somebody— Christopher Irving, writer Dennis sidekick, he had an arrow car and an arrow cave (yeah, it away with all that shit. Neal: We want to use the Toad. [laughter] It’s not easy O’Neil and artist Neal Adams Dennis: Julius Schwartz didn’t really feel that there was being green. was just all a coincidence). But he had no characterization at their July 2012 talk. Photo by any obligation to let his boss know. One of the articles of Dennis: The Green Goblin belonged to another company, ever, he had no backstory; we didn’t know anything about Seth Kushner. faith is that you could not have a continued story and once so what were we going to do? That was a minus, actually, him other than he had this kid sidekick and he shot arrows a year he did a “Justice League Meets the Justice Society” that they were both green. The idea was, “We’re going to do that were sometimes gimmicky. So he could be anything we [two-parter]. So I asked him, “One of the first things I was stories about real problems. That’s a given. Hal is going to wanted him to be, and that made him an ideal candidate to told is that I can’t do continued stories.” He said, “I didn’t ask be the best cop who ever lived. I was living in this neigh- be the guy who would argue with Green Lantern. for permission.” And I’m sure he didn’t tell anybody where borhood [SoHo] at the time and I was a hippy, and I didn’t Neal: Grist for the mill. we were going with Green Lantern/Green Arrow. Our job have any great love for the boys in blue. But I had known a Christopher: One question I have for you, Denny: When I was: Save the book. It was floundering. “Do what you want.” couple of cops who were really, really good guys. So that’s interviewed you in ’09 for GraphicNYC, you had talked about The first guy [from DC who] was interviewed [about GL/GA] Hal. His problem would have been that he takes his orders your time in the Navy and how you used to be a little more by the Village Voice — Neal wasn’t mentioned, I wasn’t men- from somebody else. He believes in authority, and if there’s conservative. I always wondered, because Green Lantern/ tioned, Julie wasn’t mentioned — I bet the son of a bitch had one thing I didn’t believe in when I was 27 years old, it was Green Arrow is so much about Green Lantern’s discovery no idea what that reporter was talking about! [laughter] Then authority, and if there’s one thing I don’t believe in when I’m that there are grays rather than black-&-whites, how much we began to actually get publicity. We got invited places and 73, it’s authority. [laughter, applause] We needed somebody of your time with the Navy did you tap into when you were we became respectable. to provide a dialetic. writing that? christopher irving Neal: Carmine got invited to tour all around the country to Neal: I, on the other hand, Dennis: First of all, I do radio interviews as if he did it. [chuckles] am a cop. So that applause should admit that I was The Human Fly ©2013 the respective copyright holder. Dennis: Do you think he knew? was out of order. [laughter] probably the worst sailor in Neal: He had no idea. Poor Carmine. I love Carmine. Dennis: [Chuckles] And the entire history of the Unit- Dennis: We just saw him three weeks ago. In Florida. I don’t expect to get home ed States Navy. As for my Neal: I love Carmine. Carmine is a great guy. He didn’t read without handcuffs tonight. conservative background, the comic books. We needed somebody to be my high school girlfriend is Dennis: It was the Peter Principle. the voice of the count- sitting right here. Maryfran, was I a conservative guy Inset left & below: Original

©2013 DC Comics. Christopher: When Julie put you two together for Green er-culture. Neal had done to date on Friday night? I cover art intended for the first Lantern/Green Arrow, who’s idea was it to team the two a sensational job — even volume of Paperback Library’s silly stories about time travel and story after story after story was unbearable! I was a heroes up? And why make it a book about America? Why before I thought I was ever Green Lantern/Green Arrow Above: Unfinished and about poor, numbskull, blind Lois Lane trying to find out who make it socially relevant? going to be involved with Catholic goody two-shoes, (obviously) unused cover for The collection, featuring a version Superman really was. [laughter] She should have moved a Neal: Julie. Green Arrow, I saw The go-to-confession-and- Brave and the Bold #85 (Aug.- of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., little lock of hair. [laughter] Dennis: Well, it was, “This book is in sales trouble.” A lot Brave and the Bold and mass-three-times-a-week- Sept. 1969), which featured and-obey-the-rules kind of that was altered when finally I’m not as down on that stuff as Neal is. I don’t enjoy it of guys wanted to get the assignment for Superman; I want- “Oh my God, this is what used as the book’s back cover Neal Adams’s brilliant redesign guy. And it wasn’t working dennis o’neil & neal adams but I kind of understand what they were trying to do was ed a book that was failing or iffy or needed help, because this character is supposed art. Kudos to Heritage Auctions. of The Green Arrow. Art by for me. But in the Navy, and appropriate for what was the time and place. And nobody that meant that fewer people were going to be looking over to look like! He looks like Below is the actual cover. (obviously) Neal Adams. through encounters after Courtesy of Heritage Auctions. knew how to edit comics! I was a comic book editor for 27 your shoulder. So, with that, I had done some (my vocabulary a tough guy, for one thing, years and I don’t remember anybody giving me instruction. falters here) relevant material in a story for Charlton which not like a paper doll. The the Navy — well, I never Dick Giordano was close to a genius in that he could suck people still sometimes mention, called “Children of Doom” other thing about him was had any doubt that racism good work out of me when I was working at Charlton for [“Can This Be Tomorrow?” Charlton Premiere #2 (Nov. 1967)]. that there was very little was wrong and that we four bucks a page. Weezy [Louise] Simonson was like that. [I also did] something for Julie Schwartz based on that river baggage. He was created needed to integrate this Some of them just had a way to do it. One poor woman was in Ohio that caught fire [“Come Slowly Death, Come Slyly,” in 1940, allegedly by Mort country. I think I got that pulled off the street. She helped her husband write a couple Justice League of America #79 (Mar. 1970)]. And I was an Weisinger. There is a movie from the Superman radio of comic book stories and someone wanted her husband to active dude. I was married to a Catholic Worker at the time serial called The Green show. When I was about relocate to New York and he brought his wife – it was sort (and nobody knows what Catholic Workers are and that’s Archer, which was shot in seven, they did what I now of an old-fashioned marriage – and she had seven comic okay; if you don’t know who Alfred Bester is, you don’t know Westchester County [New know as a public service book titles plunked on her desk and was told, “You’re editing Catholic Workers). Anyway, I was going on peace marches York], and I kind of sat announcement in which Su- these.” And that was it! She had no editorial experience, and stuff, and this was a chance to do that. through half of it. perman explained to us kids damned little writing experience. (I had edited a news maga- [To Neal] I don’t know if you know this, but I wrote [“No Christopher: [Lead – the gang – “Hey, gang! zine, I had helped edit books and had edited lots of different Evil Shall Escape My Sight,” GL #76 (Apr. 1970)] assuming Gil actor] Victory Jory, right? Some stuff called melatonin makes some skin dark and kinds of things. Comics are the hardest by far.) So this poor [Kane] would do the art. Dennis: Yeah. ©2013 DC Comics. woman was just off the deep end of the pier and try and Neal: Actually, Julie kept secrets. Christopher: I sat some skin light. And that’s swim. By the time she reaized she was sinking, she came Dennis: Yeah, he did. When I looked at the splash page through, like, maybe a third the only difference in peo- to Mike Carlin and I and asked for help, but it was too late. from the proofs— of it. Not so good. ple.” And that stuck. That’s the kind of business it was. Loosey-goosey. Neal: By the way, Gil was off of that [title] for about five Dennis: Despite what Though my parents ©2013 DC Comics. 22 #1 • Spring 2013 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 23 thing happens to him, he’s got drug addiction for the City of New York, and we both handed zombies are the walking dead. So you cannot show a corpse someone to take over.” Julie in our treatments and they rejected both of us. This was walking, but if he sits still, he can have somebody eating him. says, “Well, he already has a one time where Denny and I really agree. They didn’t like [laughter] In other words, it was written without any regard guy.” I say, “I’m sorry, Julie, it because we were blaming society, parents, and shit like for comics as a possible art form, much less as a decent way I don’t read all the comic that; we should have been blaming the kids for becoming of communicating. And with damn little regard for the English books. Who does he have?” drug-addicted. But that didn’t make any sense, because they language and very little for the history of literature. “It’s this guy named Guy would send us to Phoenix House and the guys at Phoenix Neal: So we had great comic books like Mr. District At- Gardner.” And he pulled out a House would say, “You guys don’t know what you’re talking torney, My Greatest Adventure, and my favorite, Pat Boone comic book and it’s this blond about.” So we learned a little about drug addiction. I was comics. guy from the Midwest who’s even [unintelligible 40:01] important. Anyway, so I figure Dennis: You like it, too? I love it! [laughter] It was a big a gym teacher. “So, Julie, this — that cover that you saw? I went home and I drew it, and I favorite of yours, right, Mare? guy comes to earth with this handed it in to Julie. Julie goes, “Wha--hah! Whoa! We can’t Neal: It was drawn by Bob Oksner. He kept himself in bread ring and he’s going to find the do that.” He said, “We can’t do that!” I said, “Julie, we can and butter for two years doing that thing. bravest man on earth. And he do this. We can figure out a way.” I took it into Carmine, who Dennis: Well, they were desperate. Another Julie skips over Bruce Wayne and understood it but “you can’t do that.” I took it to the execu- Schwartz story is when cowboys were a big thing. Other he skips over Superman, and tives of the company. “You can’t do that.” I go over to Marvel companies were doing well with Roy Rogers and Hopalong all these other guys, and he to visit Johnny Romita, a friend of mine. [Whispers] “Come Cassidy and Gene Autry, so they send one of the suits out to goes to a test pilot. I can buy here! You know what Stan’s doing?” “What?” “He had me Hollywood to get someone we can license. And he comes that. Not too bad. Sure. Fine. drawing a guy popping pills and walking off a roof.” I was the back and says, “Boys, you ready for this? I got it. Jimmy Now he goes out again and president of the drug association in the Bronx. It had been a Wakely comics! finds this white Anglo-Saxon nunnery but they closed it down to make a drug association. Neal: Did you ever hear of Jimmy Wakely? [No response] Protestant gym teacher. I walked guys with their noses running from 42nd Street all There’s a reason. [laughter] Ahhh, I don’t think that’s right. the way up to the Bronx to get them off [drugs] and into the Christopher: Who was Jimmy Wakely? It doesn’t make sense to me. institutions. I know something about drug addiction. I never Neal: He was a cowboy. Above & right: Shaun Clancy, I don’t get it.” Julie says, heard of a guy popping pills and walking off a roof. Maybe it Dennis: He was an imitation of an imitation of an imitation who’ll be a regular contributor “What don’t you get?” Well, happened. Possible! Within the realm of possibility. But Stan of Roy Rogers. He was a guy with a guitar and two six-guns to CBC starting next issue, Julie, you gotta understand, will tell you he doesn’t know anything about drug addiction, and he sang. Only he didn’t shoot people, he kinda shot at kindly shared scans of this is a New York Jew. He’s got but he did this. What happened was the Comics Code sent it them. [laughter] 1972 Comics Code Authority to be liberal. Automatically, back, so what’s Stan going to do? He went to his uncle, who Christopher: The Comics Code wouldn’t let him shoot pamphlet that featured the if you’re born a New York was the publisher, and he got permission to run it without the people. revisions made to the presen- Jew, gotta be liberal. Right? little seal on it. Really? I come back two weeks later. “Tommy, Dennis: God forbid if I should ever apologize for the Below left & below: Neal tation of drugs and addiction in Am I kiddin’? That’s the way what happened to that comic book?” “Nothing.” Nobody Comics Code, but remember it was created to keep the Feds Adams cover art for Green the funnybooks. Thanks, S.C.! it is. So he doesn’t want even noticed. Nobody missed the seal. The distributors off the back of people who were in a dead panic. If you read Lantern #85 (Dec. ’71-Jan. me questioning him. “Julie, distributed the comic books. At DC Comics, the shit was David Hadju’s The Ten Cent Plague — it’s a fine book and a ’72). Left is the unused cover; below the cover art of the used there’s many kinds of people hitting the fan. Because this was a voluntary, self-regulat- magnificent job of research — and what I learned was that version. Latter courtesy of Scott on the earth.” “What do you ing organization run by the comic book companies and DC virtually overnight 800 people lost their jobs because of the Williams. Former? Gee, I think want to do?” Comics had that Green Lantern cover in their drawer, saying, witch hunts. And most of them never worked at their disci- we used it in Comic Book Artist christopher irving Okay, let’s put it this way: “We can’t publish that.” Within two weeks the Comics Code pline again. So these guys had mortgages, kids, and bills, were shanty Irish, blue collar people, they had somehow Vol. 1, #1, so it’s been so long, I Ever watch the Olympics? Ever see three white guys up on was changed. Two weeks. And right now the Comics Code and thought of themselves – a lot of them were veterans — forgot! Apologies, amigo! escaped being bigoted themselves, though bigotry was all the stand, all together? I mean, archery maybe… [laughter] is obsolete. I wish we could take credit for it, but it was Stan decent, God-fearing Americans and suddenly they’re being around us. So I grew up believing in that and then, in the Dennis: Golf! Lee. Navy (but more through other encounters), I came to believe Neal: Maybe swimming, but you know… It doesn’t make Dennis: [To Neal] Didn’t we had no business to be in Vietnam. I don’t think I would any sense. “What do you want to do?” “Well… Asian. they ask you to change the ever call myself a pacifist but I thought that war was wrong Black…” “You want to do a black Green Lantern, don’t drawing? and we should get the hell out. And everything kind of flowed you?” “Well, Asian would be okay. We’ve already insulted Neal: Yes, they changed it to from there. I have probably edged two inches closer to the the entire culture by calling this character “Pieface,” this take the fixin’s off the cover, Above: Steve Gan ably inks conservative — I can no longer be a total pacifist; there are Oriental guy. the spoon and the rubber Frank Robbins on the opening times when we have to defend ourselves because that guy Dennis: He was an Eskimo. tube. page of Marvel Premiere #28 out there thinks he is not going to go to heaven unless he Neal: Let’s pull one out of the fire. Maybe we can do that. Dennis: And, yet, the scene (Feb. 1976), which introduced kills me. And he believes that with his whole heart and I have “Okay, fine. We’ll do another one. You gonna draw it?” “If that it’s taken from inside the that team terrible, the Legion no choice other than to defend myself. But most wars suck. Denny writes it.” “Fine.” So I get this script from Denny — I comic is untouched, right? of Monsters! Don’t get me started… [laughter] dearly love Denny — and I read the first page. There’s this That’s one of the many things I Christopher: Onto our next topic: In 1971, Stan Lee did an guy, he’s an architect, he’s out of work, makes sense, he’s loved about the Comics Code: dennis o’neil & neal adams anti-drug issues of Amazing Spider-Man. [#96-97 (May, June black. (Like – heh – architects are liable to be out of work It wasn’t consistent. For all 1971). [unintelligible 34:09] The Department of Health, in the ‘60s. Not a good thing, right?) And his name is Lincoln my ostensible rebelliousness, I believe, had asked him to address the drug problem. This Washington. [laughter] So I hunt down Denny and go, “Den- tell me what the rules are and is how he handled it: Basically someone pops pills, falls of ny, this isn’t your writing, right?” Denny says, “No, Julie.” I will follow the rules or will ledge and Spider-Man saves them — [laughter] I go to Julie, “Lincoln Washington?” [laughter] walk away. I’m not going to Neal: Happens every day. He says, “I know lots of guys with those kinds of names.” fight ’cha. Christopher: All the time. I think they were caffeine pills. [laughter] I said, “Julie, that’s a slave name. If you do that, Neal: [To Dennis] Did you I’m not sure. [unintelligible 34:31] every black guy in America is going to write a letter to you ever read that thing? Dennis: Mogul will destroy you! and tell you to go fuck yourself.” [laughter] “What do you Dennis: The Code? Yeah, I Christopher: The portal. So, the Comics Code, which want to call him?” “A name! John Stewart. How about that?” debated it with [Code adminis- was the censorship board at the time — they no longer How would I know he would become a comedian on late trator] Len Darvin. exist. They did not want Stan to publish this issue but he night television? We hadn’t been down to Muhammad Ali Neal: You can’t use the word went ahead and published it without the Comics Code. Now, yet, so it turned out to be a [NON-STARTER? 39:03] and, “crime” on the cover of a with the Green Lantern/Green Arrow’s anti-drug issues [GL of course, we did the two-part drug story, which Julie was comic book. #85 (Aug.-Sept. 1971) and #86 (Oct.-Nov.)] with the sidekick not supposed to do. Dennis: Roy Thomas has (tragically named Speedy) — The other story is this: We’re not supposed to do the best example. You can’t ©2013 DC Comics. Neal: Wait a second! I got a story to tell you. drugs and, by now, we’re winding down. We had taken on use zombies, but you can Christopher: That’s what I’m waiting for. over-population (a questionable subject, I suppose), and use ghouls. He looked it up Neal: So I go to Julie Schwartz and I say, “Julie, Green we had very little area left to go, except drug addiction. and found out that ghouls are Lantern ought to have a back-up. Somebody who, if some- Denny and I had both been asked to write a thing about people who eat corpses and

24 #1 • Spring 2013 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 25 on Green Lantern/Green Arrow (one you’ve already spoken book convention and Julie Schwartz went up to my son and worth of Superman, [#233 (Jan. ’71)-238 (June), 240 (July)-242 of). The first is the inker, Dick Giordano, who was also a says, “Your father dyes his hair!” [laughs] What we should (Sept.), 244 (Nov.)] which DC Comics was kind enough to famed comic book editor and artist. Up on the wall here know about Julie Schwartz is that as a teenager wrote to print with hardcovers [Superman: Kryptonite Nevermore (DC (though I can’t quite see it), on the lower left-hand corner — all the great science-fiction writers in the country and they Comics Classics Library), 2009]… The birdcage lining ended this is a house ad from DC celebrating the Shazam Awards were not used to fans and they were not used to doing good up in hardcovers. [chuckles] It was an interesting year. It won by Green Lantern/Green Arrow. In the upper right, we business for themselves; and with Mort Weisinger, the two was hard. I was able to do a Batman story in about three have Mr. O’Neil followed by Mr. Adams. Beneath it on the of them became agents for science-fiction writers. And all days, three working sessions. The thought process took lower left-hand, we have Dick himself. Neal, what did Dick those science-fictions books that you may love, as we love longer on Superman. Eventually I figured out I do not identify Giordano bring to your artwork that no other inker could? science-fiction books, as many of them were agented by with god characters and, at his pinnacle, Superman was Neal: What did Dick Giordano bring? He slopped his ink Julie Schwartz or Mort Weisinger, they represented that God. My favorite Superman panel of all time is he blows out all over and made a lousy mess of it. Disgusting! He should teenage insanity that fans turn into editorship or whatever it a star. [laughter] “Okay, God, top that!” I don’t identify with have been ashamed. [laughter] is, they represented people, like, the best — Alfred Bester. In omnipotent characters. Dennis: Well, he was always drunk! [laughter] my mind, they put Bester and Julie Schwartz together with Neal: Superman is a stupid character. When you get right Neal: No, Dick was probably one of the best inkers in the all those great writers. down to it, he’s a fucking alien. He comes from another field. I didn’t have to go in and break his knuckles every once Dennis: If you wanted to make a triumvirate, you could add planet. He’s probably got two asses. in a while. He did a great job inking my stuff and he learned Ray Bradbury, another of Julie’s discoveries as a kid in Los Dennis: With the various romances, you wonder — could that I really, truly drew shit under that stuff and he learned to Angeles. anybody in this room mate with a chrysanthemum? Because draw better so that he could ink my work. He came out of it Neal: Ray Bradbury! Represented by Julie Schwartz. This is the odds would be about the same that for one to mate with a very good and popular artist in his own right, drawing his not a small guy. Comic books was how you get past the bad somebody from a different galaxy. own stuff. I have been very lucky. It’s a different period now, times. Neal: Human being mating with marshmallows… So far but early in my career, think about it: I had Roy Thomas and Dennis: Well, by the time he was 25, it was how Neal de- I’ve done X-Men, and Batman with Denny, and Green Lan- Denny O’Neil as my writers, and I had Dick Giordano and scribed: Mort had already gone to work for DC but Julie was tern/Green Arrow. I did a Batman recently and I’m working Tom Palmer as my inkers — the two best inkers in the field the guy in the country who handled science-fiction writers. on an X-Men called First X-Men — the X-Men before the inking for me and the two best writers writing for me. So I Christopher: We have time for maybe one or two ques- X-Men. was as lucky as a pig in shit. tions before Neal and Denny sign some books. Let me see I was talking to Grant Morrison at dinner last night and I Dennis: I just realized I am sitting between the two people some hands. Mr. Haspiel in the black T-shirt. said, “Wouldn’t it be cool in a story if someone took Super- [Seth Kushner and Neal Adams] who have ever made me Dennis: Dean! Yo! We have an Emmy-winner with us! man’s DNA (like you could get a needle in him!) and discover look good. Really, even at 30 years old, I wasn’t that good Dean Haspiel: You’re both such great storytellers on your that he was human. Wouldn’t that be interesting? That he looking, but the photo you guys published [the poster for the own. In terms of process together, do you work full-script? really was a super-man? event] — wow! I was showing that to everybody. I never, And the second part of that question is what did you learn Audience member: Would you two ever work together never looked that good. [laughter] from each other working together and name one virtue — again? Neal: I remember coming down from DC Comics with that Neal: Got it! Let me tell you my half, okay? Any time I work Neal: Sure, we would. We love each other. He’s a nice picture. “Who’s this guy? I wanna talk to him.” with a writer, I always do what he has on the page. If I write, writer. Dennis: And they looked at me and said, “Nah, not him.” I expect the artist to do what I have on the page. So, when I Dennis: Make me an offer. Christopher: Well, I can’t take any credit for the picture, give myself over to a writer, I try as much as I can to tell that Christopher: One more question. but Mr. Kushner can. And the second unsung hero, whom we story, every part of it and as much of it as I can. Audience member: [A question about more realistic have already spoken of at great length, was Julius Schwartz. Denny wrote a page, like half a page, in Green Lantern/ depictions of people artistically.] christopher irving What did Julie bring to Green Lantern/Green Arrow and Green Arrow, right? He described this page with Speedy Neal: I think we’re moving into a time where we’re getting Batman that no other —? being taken out by the cops, and these two drug addicts, one better and better artists. Part of it I take a certain responsi- Neal: What did Julie bring to Green Lantern. Julie con- of them was unconscious, and Green Lantern was doing this bility for and a fine amount of ego — what a lousy thing to stantly said to me — and you have to understand that Julie and doing that. Denny was writing this thing and he wrote say, “a fine amount of ego”… I say to other artists who are is a mentor for many artists, science-fiction writers, comic about a half a page of description, most of which I didn’t in college or learning to be artists, “You know, it’s a great book writers — and the thing I remember most that Julie quite need, and so at the end, realizing he had written all of medium to be in, so no matter how skilled you are, it actually Schwartz said to me was, “Adams, get the fuck out of my this, he wrote, “And, oh yeah, throw in a couple of rhinoc- is a good place to be.” So we have a generation of artists office! Get the fuck out!” “Oh, okay, Julie.” That’s how I eroses.” [laughter] So I did. [laughter] The statue in the now — and a generation of writers — who beat the hell remember Julie. [laughter] foreground. And he came to me later and said, “I didn’t really out of any previous generation of artists or writers. We are Dennis: He was, for a writer, an ideal editor because, first mean that.” [laughter] taking over the world. You didn’t expect that answer, did you? of all, he never intruded his own ego into the process. His Dennis: We did not work collaboratively. I wrote a script Rembrandt, Michelangelo… we’ve had good artists forever, goal was, “How good can we make this story, right here and and gave it to Julie Schwartz and time passed. I saw a proof. we just haven’t had them in comics. now, given what our limitations and resources are?” But but what was great about those years for me was: I could Audience member: I want to know the secret. I want to Below: After the talk, the group posed for a final pic. called the scum, the creators of juvenile delinquency. never, “I want you to write the story I would have written.” trust him. If I asked for something, that’s what I would get. know if it was Dick or you— From left, Dennis O’Neil, Neal Above: Neal Adams drew this Neal: Toilet paper. I think I usually saw him on Thursday morning and I had the A lot of the Comic Book 101 stuff, like an establishing Neal: Draw like a son of a bitch. Adams, Christopher Irving, dennis o’neil & neal adams DC Comics house ad trumpeting Dennis: Yeah. They panicked. Of course, they panicked! thing pretty much parsed out in my head; it was going to be shot, he gives me a stoop of a Brooklyn brownstone and Dennis: It’s sad but Neal isn’t going to teach you how to their win at the first annual Amanda Bullock (director of Neal: I’m sure you guys understand this, because at a a very short visit. It was going to be, “Okay, Batman is going that’s well-established and we don’t have to worry about it. draw and I’m not going to teach you how to write. You’re public programming at Housing banquet for the Academy of certain time in our country we were going after communists to do this, this and this,” and I’d leave, go home and write the Other artists I have worked with would not have bothered, going to do that for yourself by applying your Comic Book Arts, featured in Works Bookstore Cafe), and and, once that was done, and it kinda got turned around, script. If the cupboard was bare, Julie would talk until I had because, yeah, it’s just a stoop of a brownstone. But for me, posterior to a hard surface for a given number Seth Kushner. October1971 titles. people’s lives were ruined, and Congress had a little extra enough to get started and, after a while, experience could location is character. It’s very important that things look like of hours a week and doing it until you’re good at it. energy left over, so they attacked comic books. Communists, take over. You can write the first few scenes and maybe what they are. That and the body comic books! They both start with “c.” [chuckles] experience will take over from there. So, what I’ve just language of the actors in the ©2013 Seth Kushner. Dennis: I think it was really, mostly — Joe McCarthy described, what seemed to me to be most important was his story Neal always got right. And over in the House [of Representatives] was getting a lot of own lack of ego. He and Stan: I don’t know if we’d be here that was a great gift. publicity by lying — lying, lying! — authority figure lying? without them. Between them, they re-invented super-heroes Christopher: We have time Yeah. I think [U.S. Senator] Estes Kefauver [Democrat from at a time when the field desperately needed re-inventing. But for one more question. Tennessee] saw that he had a chance to make himself a Julie’s ego never got in the way and, despite his very gruff Audience member: Did you viable Presidential candidate — manner — Neal’s imitation was pretty good — I really think ever thing of redoing Superman Neal: See, this is why I worked with him on Green Lantern. he did have the proverbial heart of gold. For the last year or in a more down-to-earth — Just pull that string: Rrrrwwwwaaarrr! There he goes. so of his life, I made a point of going up there on Thursday Neal: Are you talking to Denny Dennis: So, about a mile from here, Kefauver convened mornings — I was teaching a course on editing for the com- or myself? an inquiry into the “comic book menace.” Out of that came pany and I would choose to teach it on Thursday morning so Audience member: Both Mad magazine, so it wasn’t a total disaster. But that’s what I I could spend 30 minutes with Julie, just talking about stuff, of you. think it was all about: Political opportunism and a total lack nothing in particular. A very nice man. Christopher: Denny did do on conscience. Neal: These very nice stories about the very nice Julie Superman. Christopher: There are two unsung heroes who worked Schwartz? The last time I saw Julie Schwartz was at a comic Dennis: Yeah, I did a year’s

26 #1 • Spring 2013 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 27 in memoriam Les Daniels The Incomplete History Celebrating the writer/historian who gave the world much more than he got

by JON B. COOKE CBC Editor volupta voluptas sundae id exped etur, si nations editaque suntorumque nessint et officiis utasper rorero tectota quis- Es ant odistiae sit inullam landit, ut quas cus voloreribus sero bearchi ligenda muscipi enimi, soleniaepe et opti quae etur reped etur? voluptatis exceate ntiisquodis etusciunde vellam quiaspi Emolum que dignimus issit porem quaecto tatatus demodignis qui tem qui blabore, tore con reptin prae et et entiam quatum qui solorese de nonseque corunt ma volor volorestiam ut lit od ullorer speratem hiciam, consequi aut sapiderum que velese volessit, vid quia pliam nit quo ent odit eum que vellesed que eumqui doluptat rest volorum re non quam in con re con cullum as eaquatas quam sum conse- con rem faceribea plam resectotat. quatem hilliti adi cus acestium Udit peria possequam nobis nest rero maximaxim fac- quaes simaior endust prae cuptat. ommolorerit landus ventem. Dollectorio. Eprehen tiosand aesequidus am vel ex Ota peles nessimus mi, ipsan- eaquam esecta sunti utem abo. Nam, ium fugiam sendis ent imus quunt esciaspedit am, quaspit rest, es inia qui is dolore, volore susam, te perrunt. cum, sitatur ma soloresciis Quia nonsequ odigenis aut que in re maio. Rorendis core reria debis quis es erempor pellantur aut as aut eos auteceaqui non eatur? eicipic aborit, aut esequam, Latqui as ipsa verspis a imusani omnihitae re di doluptas sectemporae parum am eum mos ut pel ipiciatisi od que et, coria solor modisquis diam ad lam, con re latur solo molorae quia que volupti stissitatur aliquae premo exceprae rehenie volupic totaquiatio odit, ndistem rem aut qui non possit ipsam, sim hilit aut imillan odicidus. dionsequam iliciatiis sus vit atus expla atemo min ex exceper Xerchic tassendi con eo- ciisquae aut doloratem quam, officiet quo molorep erum- ssi arcim hil int, il mi, occum quam harum re nis doloressit, iscid quiae duntota ducium rendit optatis commos sit etus venimpo runturi orecatur autem quas endi ad eos si desti alit, tempelectore doluptius. ducipitiunt enda volorenis pora dit peria nihicip samust re Ic tempedis as maximus aut volendiam, ad qui doluptiustem utem ipsant aliqui vendes pligendit fuga. Am commodi simodia nobit vid quamus et aut rat. ciendel idebis exero te volo- Eque ipsaperias in con nimet minveliquis remolorerum et rum sectemp orisquid etus. et aut pa impero dit aliqui alique doluptatem isquae verro Consero vitianda dolendis tem re voloris iduntias as volor sume volore sin cus. ut la volut volorectis et et Et aborepercid et uta voluptat aspero deles dolore dolore- exernat ionsequ atisquiat hent. landaes truptatio id mostemo Onessi ommos as re si ipsam simet, culpa vendunt, utem. luptus. Nam ut volor seque apis molores trumquibus niasimus eatis Dio omnis ni sintiae pro inulparum et et que nis voloreh enderuptium hit et ut landell tenimaio et eos re ex eum aborent pores plia auda eicid molorehent laudand enihic te nis dolor aut veriaep tatibus, nis dest, net fugia dit quatur suntiis dolupta turitas invendae

Photo ©2013 Seth Kushner. sit, qui illacimint odi reperum corum eum recturit harionse doluptatiae pelestiasi occae vid ipsande rernatia de es estia sequi cone perum fugiatur, sa molendicitae simolup taquos eum volorepellit pero qui bea Inset right: Seth Kushner’s doluptae lautestium nobisciis excepudaest, cus ulparum et suntio comnis enis ipsamusam, comnis que pa vellanihilic te photo of Joe Simon’s drawing incium enda con et volupiendit, inci blabore rem. Rehendel es coreict atiumqui volore volupta quunt quas vel min porep- hand and a certain Big Apple ide verrum eatur sinienimin con et que nus ut volor aut la ta consequates eum qui dolenis exerruntion non pel iuntium landmark grace the cover of volestist, ut volorup tatemolore ommodit dolectur? quunt rernatinctur alitasp eriandi sincil estium que voluptam his and writer Christopher Hil maio imus explicatur aces dolupic idelignam si beatem aut ipid modit dit harcid ex evendeb itatis doluptaspit quam Irving’s smash tome, Leaping eos net lab iur, officiet esedignihic temporu ptatem qui auditaspedit in rem vernatus dolessi mendit andioremquis Tall Buildings: The Origins of sitatatius, voluptatest rehenis di audist, quatur magnatus esti re, sinci si consed que rehendae volut molorestotas ex- the American Comics, available exerovition cum velibus danimag natendipsame porepere ceaqu atiumquatet etus nonsecae estio. Ut aceratquia derit in bookstores and comic shops nist quatur? aliquatem illut alit aut di omnihil min rerum quunda pratqui and via their publisher at www. Aspist alit ducium illam harios re ad eiciur reptatur am non consedis et officipitam, suntet pereptae volum veratecabo. powerhousebooks.com. Many Alis et doluptas iunt quam evenderum apiciistio cor rehen- thanks to our chums for the rerchil luptat. words and pictures here! Parum et ullabo. Lanihicil illessit aut laceror mos ellupta dem doluptation cus sit omnia que verio tempel magnima dolorib usande placi totaquis as ditium eos es si des dolo- gnisto te vid ut quam isi am nonsedione veniend iciisci rumet molum exerecestio veliqui bustius nus res eosaect atiusam num faccabori ulparum ratur sus everionetur alicia emoluptat laturio occusan daestibus sim et di des autem suntemo luptatis antem aut eum eosapitas aligend untiur ad untiusanim laut et as secupta tquati rem volorest maiorro mossequid quam, cuptiat ionsequos et quae corerio. Latqui offictur, commoluptas doluptati tectem. Is sit enis eatiis et as ipsa verspis a imusani omnihitae re di doluptas Portrait by Cortney Skinner

28 #1 • Spring 2013 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 29 Coming into his third decade of comic book super-stardom, the artist reflects on the illusion of realism, keeping old school in the digital age, and the call of independence

Comic Book Creator: It qui nus et laudignam nonsedi tatende lluptam, sumque Man-Thing, Ghost Rider, Morbius, and Werewolf By Night ©2013 Marvel Characters, Inc. ut in re adignatur, atem dolor sunte cuptatiandes expera inture dunt. Above: Steve Gan ably inks velenem eati dellenis raeriorum es CBC: It qui nus et ut in re adignatur, Frank Robbins on the opening nus quis eum es et la corempo- atem dolor sunte velenem eati page of Marvel Premiere #28 ria voluptios milibusam estor dellenis raeriorum es nus (Feb. 1976), which introduced Nelson Alexander Ross is in coasting mode. renimpos reiciduntur aligend Alex: Debitaspelis et venecus that team terrible, the Legion ipienda nonseri autem dolor et maios ea aborrov idignimus, of Monsters! am, temporerunt.. offictur re et inusam, officipid Though urged by frequent collaborator and friend Alex Ross: Debitaspelis et maximin venitation re num venecus et maios ea aborrov non nonem invelecabor idignimus, offictur re et sandelit ut velest aut is inusam, officipid maximin ve- doluptasim facepudit mod Kurt Busiek, among others, to focus on creator- nitation re num non nonem molorem lam, quiam estrum invelecabor sandelit ut velest que nossi nam es repudio aut is doluptasim facepudit experumquia non repedit mod molorem lam, quiam es- odis et intur? Ullorro tem di owned material — and nagged by his own desire trum que nossi nam es repudio susant as in et aliquo experumquia non repedit odis et oditatem hici blab ini intur? Ullorro tem di susant as in et sam quas ut rem qui to produce the Great American Graphic Novel aliquo oditatem hici blab ini sam quas doloratem acerrovit re, ut rem qui doloratem acerrovit re, vent, vent, ut quo estem eium ut quo estem eium voloren tendam id et, voloren tendam id et, quae plit quae plit fuga. Ut omni doloruptate non pera aut fuga. Ut omni doloruptate non pera — the artist is hesitant to risk all in the face of am et que net laudignam nonsedi tatende lluptam, sumque aut am et que net laudignam nonsedi tatende cuptatiandes expera inture dunt. lluptam, sumque cuptatiandes expera inture CBC: It qui nus et ut in re adignatur, atem dolor sunte velen- dunt. em eati dellenis raeriorum es nus CBC: It qui nus et ut in re adignatur, a sluggish economy and fickle comics medium, Alex: Debitaspelis et venecus et maios ea aborrov idignimus, atem dolor sunte velenem eati dellenis offictur re et inusam, officipid maximin venitation re num non raeriorum es nus nonem invelecabor sandelit ut velest aut is doluptasim facepudit Alex: Debitaspelis et venecus et mod molorem lam, quiam estrum que nossi nam es repudio maios ea aborrov idignimus, offictur choosing, for the moment, to play it safe. experumquia non repedit odis et intur? Ullorro tem di susant as re et inusam, officipid maximin in et aliquo oditatem hici blab ini sam quas ut rem qui dolor- venitation re num non nonem atem acerrovit re, vent, ut quo estem eium voloren tendam id invelecabor sandelit ut velest But the examples of Kirby, Adams, and Ware et, quae plit fuga. Ut omni doloruptate non pera aut am et que aut is doluptasim facepudit net laudignam nonsedi tatende lluptam, sumque cuptatiandes mod molorem lam, quiam estrum expera inture dunt. que nossi nam es repudio experumquia non CBC: It qui nus et ut in re adignatur, atem dolor sunte velen- repedit odis et intur? Ullorro tem di susant as continuet qui nus et ut in re to adignatur, entice atem dolor the sunte velenemambitions tem di susant asof in et aliquo Alex oditatem hici Ross. blab ini sam quas em eati dellenis raeriorum es nus in et aliquo oditatem hici blab ini sam quas eati dellenis raeriorum es nus quis eum es et la corempo- ut rem qui doloratem acerrovit re, vent, ut quo estem eium Alex: Debitaspelis et venecus et maios ea aborrov idignimus, ut rem qui doloratem acerrovit re, ria voluptios milibusam estor renimpos reiciduntur aligend voloren tendam id et, quae plit fuga. Ut omni doloruptate non offictur re et inusam, officipid maximin venitation re num non vent, ut quo estem eium voloren ipienda nonseri autem dolor am, temporerunt. pera aut am et que net laudignam nonsedi tatende lluptam, nonem invelecabor sandelit ut velest aut is doluptasim facepudit tendam id et, quae plit fuga. Ut Debitaspelis et venecus et maios ea aborrov idignimus, sumque cuptatiandes expera inture dunt. mod molorem lam, quiam estrum que nossi nam es repudio omni doloruptate non pera aut offictur re et inusam, officipid maximin venitation re num Em voles repreprae non reribus tiumqui optatusandi dolor- experumquia non repedit odis et intur? Ullorro tem di susant as am et que net laudignam nonsedi non nonem invelecabor sandelit ut velest aut is doluptasim ia tecepuditas auda eumqui qui rersper uptat. in et aliquo oditatem hici blab ini sam quas ut rem qui doloratem tatende lluptam, sumque cupta- facepudit mod molorem lam, quiam estrum que nossi nam Loreped ut optatquia sam, sime estecum sus nosa illaut acerrovit re, vent, ut quo estem eium voloren tendam id et, tiandes expera inture dunt. es repudio experumquia non repedit odis et intur? Ullorro optiur rerum ut pedia et volorem sinusti oreptus—YCE. quae plit fuga. Ut omni doloruptate non pera aut am et que net Transcribed by Brian K. Morris • Portrait by Seth Kushner 30 Interview conducted#1 • Spring by 2013 Jon • COMIC B. BOOK Cooke CREATOR COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 31 , Astro Citys

The Art of Writing Comic Books and Revitalized Life in the Age of Marvels

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Rio eum utam fugia comnihilis accatet dernat. arum facimet escipsunto te dolor- Ullor maximusto Libus. Aliae nit, earuptatem quiam et aut voluptat lam, Libus. Aliae nit, earuptatem quiam et aut voluptat lam, emperum fugiatiis natet assunt optatemo ilit landiorum eturem quistis seque nestesciet aliquos tibearum fuga. Andit eturem quistis seque nestesciet aliquos tibearum fuga. Andit etur alignis auta imilign ihicil incto eum voluptas ea vene apienis et aut alique atum rerum aut re vellabore preped apienis et aut alique atum rerum aut re vellabore preped que dis aut ium rehenis intusdam maximus que non nis num ium comnisci vidi sunto non nis num ium comnisci vidi sunto volenda velique ped qui tem. Hita sinus et volestis sit volupta nia- volenda velique ped maio tem. Et fugitem maio tem. Et fugitem veles pa quam soloria dit quam dignita ipsus eossit fugitemperum fuga. tiassi quatur, veles pa quam soloria dit quam dignita tiustotatius de omnit audant ilia qui quatiurit asi dolorehenem Nam cone doluptat la auta aut te pe inimus tiustotatius de omnit audant ilia qui quatiurit lacipicabore ilis voloris magnisint volorepero et que ellores doluptatur, ex volupidisti re, asi dolorehenem lacipicabore ilis voloris aut quis natur a doluptatur, sum es everfer feruptiis ad quia sitat id quatia sita- magnisint volorepero et que ellores aut quis simet liquis dolorer unducipsamus excerfero max- tis exernatas et aut natur a doluptatur, sum es everfer feruptiis im suntinusam re magnissit harit as eicit parciatur fugit oditate rest, seque ad quia simet liquis dolorer unducipsamus sa sita nulluptur, ipsantium entur adio. Aquunde pro velique lique voluptatis et excerfero maxim suntinusam re magnissit que di dolupta veliae. Ut qui conetur? velit alignam faccae niendiorem ven- harit as eicit parciatur sa sita nulluptur, ip- Dam voluptatios asperum veliaepuda sa do- digenis magnis doluptatis sae nossum ad santium entur adio. Aquunde que di dolupta luptat aut plignisqui sequi con rem sundit quodicipis Right top and middle: Fran es et volorio nsedit rere aut ese nimolorrum veliae. Ut qui conetur? aut ea aped eum vel estis ma essim harum harci Rowe Robbins and Frank volores tectatur as ut aut fuga. Ibus aut Dam voluptatios asperum veliaepuda ilis autae sum delest, odit, simust ex exeriost, ute Interview conducted by Robbins during their 1980s-90s aspic tentiisquam, ius voluptatia voloreicit, sa doluptat aut plignisqui sequi con rem magnam is apid quidi conseque re sit quam voluptin- K.R.B. Mexican romance and marriage si abore, sitibea consequatem viduscia sundit quodicipis aut ea aped eum vel estis tios ani odis sequatur rem ulparci entiis eatures ditiis (courtesy of Fran). Bottom Jon B. Cooke General Delivery dolupit etustot atempore, ut re dendips ani- ma essim harum harci ilis autae sum delest, eos eate consect otatibe rnatest volupti oriorit, in et, il right: Renowned Archie car- esedi rate ius alis reptur? Astro City toonist Stan Goldberg and his hici dolorem odicium incia pa et hiliquatur odit, simust ex exeriost, ute magnam is apid Transcribed by assimus eat velendusam fugit quo quod min quidi conseque re sit quam voluptintios ani Pudions equiat volores con nias sequi nobitas friend Frank Robbins, Mexico, exerum re plit, consern atibusa seque pero eliqui ilicto U.S.A. 1994 (courtesy of Stan and his nonecus min rehent unt earum ea consedis odis sequatur rem ulparci entiis eatures dolupta dolest, ommo velendi gnimodi simento tatemqu ditiis eos eate consect otatibe rnatest volupti oriorit, in et, il des eatquid minulla cerrum ea nonsequat quameni sse- Brian K. Morris ibeaquiam, apernate pa nihilit reictem volorem adi renis quo esedi rate ius alis reptur? dis inci officimus restiatur as non nonet utecull uptiosto Portrait by odit fugiatur audignatem hilloreperum sequae mo quam, odi Pudions equiat volores con nias sequi nobitas exerum ditaquia quo quo et imus et ad ma dolupta vidusci magnis atem. Rio eum utam fugia comnihilis accatet dernat. re plit, consern atibusa seque pero eliqui ilicto des eatquid re int veni dit ullita volesci issitae eatur resecae experi bea Barbara R. Kesel 32 #1 • Spring 2013 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2013 • #1 33