University of California, Berkeley Unified School District, Bay Area Social Planning Council, League of Women Voters, 1956-70

Home , Frank Merriam, Paul Peek (politician), Thomas Kuchel, Whitaker and Baxter

The Bancroft Library University of California/Berkeley Regional Oral History Office

Earl Warren Oral Hlstory Project

THE GOVERNOR AND THE PUBLIC, THE PRESS, AND THE LEGISLATURE

Marguerite Gallagher Administrative Procedures in Earl Warren8s Office, 1938-1953 Verne Scoggins Observations on California Affairs by Governor Earl Warren's Press Secretary Beach Vasey Governor Warren and the Legislature

Interviews Conducted by Amelia Fry and Gabrielle Morris

Copy NO. - 01973 by The Regents of the University of California This manuscript is made available for research purposes. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the written permission of the Director of The Bancroft Library of the University of California at Berkeley.

Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to the Regional Oral ist tor^ Office, 486 Library, and should include identification of the specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the passages, and identification of the user. INTRODUCTION

The present volume of the Earl Warren Series contains the recollections of Marguerite Gallagher, Verne Scoggins, and Beach Vasey, and is largely concerned wlth the external relations of the governor's office of the State of California, 1943-53 Ever since Plato's Republic, writers have scrutinized the built-in paradoxes that reside in the functions of a head of state, Just as the dichotomies have continued to impede the management processes of even the most capable public executives, questions about the phenomena still fascinate the inquiring minds of scholars, For instance, how does the chief executive of a large, complex state set up his office to provide efficient handling of masses of mail, of legislative programs and thousands of bills, and of press relations, without eroding his vote-getting aura of personal concern for each individual and each problem? Nor is that the only contradiction inherent in a governor's office. There is the challenge, on one hand, of administering the budget, the departments, and the personnel of the executive branch--a job of constant decision-making, presumably based on a struggle for up-to-the-minute and reliable data on the operations for which he is ultimately responsible. And on the other hand, there is the duty of a political salesman to sense and to sell to the voters the acceptable ways in which his administration is giving the public what it wants. What is virtue in one job can be a liability in the other, and therein lies the juggleras act which governors perform with varying degrees of success and political survivorship. It was with these and related questions in mind that the interviewers tape recorded Verne Scoggins, Beach Vasey, and Marguerite Gallagher as representative of the aspects of public relations, legislation, and office administration respectively, Their vantage points reveal some of the operations of one unusually popular governor in one post-World War I1 state, Their accounts can be valuable chiefly as personal views from the inside out, and as such may provide one more clue in the scholars' perennial search for criteria and methodology of public administration , Gallagher recalls fifteen years wlth Warren, first in the attorney general's office, later helping William Sweigert set up the governor's office, and then taking charge of pmcessipg phe growing volume of correspondence f ram the public dealing with Warren' s legislative proposals and also his natianal polltical aspirations . Seoggins describes the highly effective press relations operation he maintained and shares his wider perspective on vo%er response to Warren and changing political currents. Vasey legislative secretary from 1944 to 1953, sketches his work with the legislature which was funneled through this one individual to officially maintain the separation between executive and legislative branches of government. These memoirs provide a good view of the details of operation of the governor's office, which was considerably expanded in size, and systematized for greater efficiency during these years. Other aspects of the many responsibilities of the executive function are dealt with in %he memoirs of Helen Re MacGregor, William S. Mailllard, Merrell F. Small, and William T. Sweigert. Taken as a whole, the interviews with Warren's personal staff give a sense of a smoothly-functioning team, the members of which not only worked well together, but also engoyed each other as individuals and shared Warren's sense of the high purpose of government. The friends and associates began a custom of reunion dinners with Chief Justice and Mrs. Warren in 1954, In 1970, Helen MacGregor recalls that William Mailliard commented "that his life had been enriched and motiva%ed because it had touched Earl Warren's." "In retrospect," she added, "I think we had our Camelot to a greater degree rthan the Kennedy administration) ." Some who have disagreed with Warren philosophically or on specific issues have commented that members of his immediate staff would contribute to the record only the favorable aspects of his administration . Although there is little negative comment in these interviews, the narrators' loyalty and competent hard work can be said to be marks of Warren's ability to inspire such devotion and his skill in matching people to responsibilities. Others who served for a time in the execntive suite had died by the time of this research progect or were otherwise unavailable; only one declined to be interviewed about his role in Warren's admini stration. Amelia Re Fry, Director Gabrielle Morris, Intervi ewer-Editor 4 April 1973 Earl Warren Era Oral Hlstory Regional Oral History Project Off ice 486 The Bancroft Library Uni versit y of calif ornia/~erkeley The Banoroft Library University of California/Berkeley Regional Oral Hfstory Off ice Earl Warren Oral History Project

Marguerite Gallagher ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES IN EARL WAFEEN8S OFFICE, 1938-1953

An Interview Conducted by Amelia R, Fry

@1973 by The Regents of the University of California TABLE OF CONTENTS -- Marguerite Gallagher

INTERVIEW HISTORY

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL 1 S OFFICE 1 -Routine of the Off ice Responsibilities of the Off ice

I1 THE GOVERNOR 1 S OFFICE Off ice Manual Developed by William Sweigert 8 Alleged "Buggingt' of the Governor's Off ice : 19h3 10 The ~iihtfor Health Insurance The Job of Administrative Ass istant : Correspondenc e Works for the National Republican Party on the l9&8 and 1952 Presidential Campaigns The Republican Conventions Coat inuing Political Work between Campai~ns - -- INDEX INTERVIEW HISTORY

Marguerite Gallagher was chosen not only to provide a view of the governor's office operations, but also to relate the changes that occurred inside the attorney general's office before and after Earl Warren assumed that office in 1938, In addition, her presence as the California delegation's Girl Friday in the Republican conventions, in presidential campaigns, and in the gubernatorial contests added a bonus of information on political activities. Her reminiscences were tape recorded in the afternoon on January 25, 1972, in her neat, well-appointed house in Sacra- mento. Her friendliness and good disposition are probably two reasons why she was welcome to work under several governors, and her efficient attention to the task at hand exemplified her value as one who could handle a myriad of tasks on campaign trains or in the governor's office. We moved steadily through an outline of queries and answers, and when it was clear that neither her memory nor available papers at hand (she had kept none) could add more, we drew the interview to a close. Yet it was a pleasant conversation, easily paced, and not hurried. Later, Miss Gallagher checked over the transcript, making several clarifications and additions, deleting only a few passages here and there that failed to add information. At our request, she hunted up a photograph of herself and, with a mild protest ("I carefully avoid having pictures taken because they always depress me! ") she sent it to us for the frontispiece. She also contributed several other group photographs of the governor's staff, which will be deposited in the photograph files of the Earl Warren Collection of the Emcroft Library. Amelia Fry Director, &rl Warren ProJect

22 February 1973 Regional Oral History Office 486 The Bancroft Library University of Calif omia, Berkeley mte of Interview: January 25, 1972

I THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE

Fry: You told me that you started in 1926 in the attorney general's office in San Francisco, and then trans- ,ferred to Sacramento in -- Gallagher: Thirty-four, I thfnk ft was. Fry: Just before Earl Warren became attorney' general? Gallagher: Four years before Earl Warren became the attorney general. I was a legal secretary. Fry: Did this mean that you helped with civil -and criminal? Gallagher: I was a secretary, a legal secretary. I did all the things a legal secretary does, I was secretary to several of the attorneys, and there were a succession of them who handled the criminal briefs, and I took dictation from them; I did typfng, I typed the briefs, I did all the things a legal secretary does, Fry: This was under U.S. Webb, then. Gallagher: Yes. And in Sacramento I was working with Jess Hession, who was the deputy in charge of the Sacra- mento office, I worked for any number of deputies during those years, because they changed, you know, Young men would come fn and work for a whfle, Judge rThomas Francis] McBride -- do you know Judge Mc~ride? Fry: Yes, I do, Gallagherr Tom was a law student at that time, and he would Gallagherr come in during his vacation and work in the attorney general's office and then he went into the Naay and when he came out of the Navy he finished law school,

Fry : Was that during the time that Earl Warren was attorney general when Tom McBride would come in? Gallagherr Tom started during General Webb's time but continued with General Warren until going into service,

Routine of the Office

Fry: Can you describe the changes that the 1934 constitutional amendments made in the attorney general's office in Sacramento? What did this mean in terms of the actual day-to-day functioning, to have more responsibility put on the attorney general's office? Did it become a more comprehensive office? Jlagher: Yes, it did. It grew, That was the beginning of 1939 when Warren became attorney general, When I came to work in the Sacramento office there were just three girls in the office including myself and four men, but then later the staff was increased. Before that it was just like a regular law office. I mean there was not too much contact with departments or anything of that sort r but after that, with the increased responsibilities of the office, it grew and it continued to grow. But I have to say that there wasn't too much change in the way we did things until -- let's see, Governor Warren became attorney general in '39 -- that's when the real changes began. That's when we began to really docket everything. Before that docketing had been rather hit and miss, but after that we haa sheets that we had to make out on every case that would eventually go to San Francisco to be put into a permanent docket. Our files became more complete. The office was run in a much more businesslike fashion.

Fry : Did you know /-William To)/ Sweigert when he was in the attorney general's office? Gallagher: No. Fry: Did the Sacramento office concern itself with the measures that at that time were going through the legislature pertaining to law enforcement? Gallagherr No, not that I was aware of. No, legislative proposals would originate in San Francisco, and of course the head of the office here would do whatever was necessary for the contacts.

Fry r Who was head here?

Gallagher: Jess Hession. He had formerly been district attorney of Inyo County. Fry: So what was the main purpose of the Sacramento office?

Gallaghert Well, the department heads would come over and ask for opinions. The attorney general rendered opinions on departmental matters and one of the Sacramento attorneys represented the Reclamation Board, attended the Reclamation Board meetings t the Sacramento office handled all the affairs of the Reclamation Board. Each deputy had certain departments assigned to him and the departmental people would come to him with their problems. But an official opinion had to have the signature of the attorney general, so a draft of it would have to go down to San Francisco, and I suspicion that if there was any controversy about it it was the subject of discussion down there as well as with the attorneys here. But Sacramento wasn't a very active office. It is now; it's a terrifically active office now, but then it was just sort of a little off-shoot of the San Francisco office.

Fry r Are you talking about under U.S. Webb?

Gallagher: Yes.

Fry r Then how did Warren use the Sacramento office?

Gallagher: He enlarged it right away. We had more people and we were working harder, avld of course the attorney general had, as you say, been given more authority under the constitutional amendment so that there Gallagher: was more work to do, more varied work, Our records were more orderly, but all of that had to channel down through San Francisco. Of course changes like that donat come overnight. I mean, they can't, Particularly where you have a civil service personnel as the attorney general had, and as the governorms office didn't have, You can go into the governor's office and say, wYou're going to do this and that and the other, l' but it is a little different in the attorney general's office,

Fry r As I understand it James H. Oakley came in to head up the civil side of the office, is that right? Gallagher: Yes.

Fry r But I donwt know what Robert Ihrrison did, Gallagher: Mr. Harrison was never up here, He was the head of the San Francisco office. Re was chief deputy.

Fry : And he was the office manager? Gallagherr No, he wasn't the office manager. That was R. Lee Chamberlain. Mr. Harrison handled the legal end of the office,

Fry r I see, so that Bob Harrison was sort of the executive of the office, is that correct? Gallagher: He was the chief deputy under U.S. Webb, and E. B. Power was the assistant attorney general; he's the man I worked for down there. And then I understand that when Mr. Harrison retired, he became connected with Hastings College of Law.

Fry r Were you connected with any special issues during Earl Warren's attorney general days? The most spectacular were the gambling ships, I believe, Gallagher: No. That all was handled out of San Francisco by Warren Olney, Helen MacGregor, Oscar Jahnsen, Ray McCarthy, and others in San Francisco, We were very remote from all that. We had nothing to do with it Responsibilities of the Office

Fry r During the period of Earl Warren's attorney generalship he and Olson had some disagreements on some things like the role of the dtate guard, and things like this. Now since you were up here in Sacramento, were yon an informed observer of anything like that? Gallagher: No, that was all between the two. Fry s And sometimes I think through the press rather than through direct contact. Gallagherr Yes. My duties in the attorney general's office had nothing to do with legislation. In fact we were always told by both Webb and Warren that the farther we kept away from the legislature the better, because that was a separate branch of the government. That was nothing we had anything to do with. So we were across the street in the Library and Courts Building and our lives were there. We did our work there, and it was very rarely that a legislator would even come to the attorney general's office. Most of our contact would be with the department heads and with the courts that were there, with the appellate and 8upreme a'ourts, because we were filing briefs with them all the time. The dupreme court would come up from San Francisco and sit twice a year in Sacramento, and the Appellate &ourt was here all the time. So, really, when you say, "What did the attorney- general's- office in Sacramento do?" it was a regular legal office, without my obvious contact with politics. Now, there's no doubt in my mind that the head men had some contact through the attorney general with the legislators. They would certainly be in contact with them, but as far as we were concerned, nothing went through our hands.

Fry: I wondered if you noted a developing change in atmosphere in the office after Warren took over. One thing I'm thinking about as a 'for instance8 which the chief justice tells us himself is that he was a pretty severe task master, that he wanted Fry: things done and done on time. At least in the district attorney's office. Did you notice any changes like that in the attorney general's office? Gallagher: Yes, the ship tightened up, in other words. rkughter] But we got more help and there was never anything unusual expected of us; however, we were supposed to do what we were supposed to do. I1 THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE

Fry: We might just start with the governorqs first setting up office and go chronologically from there. Gallagher: In the attorney general's office, in 1942 after he had won the governorship, they set about setting up the staff, Now I had never met Judge Sweigert at that time, I knew Helen MacGregor, the $tovernor0a personal secretary, because whenever the attorney general would come up to Sacramento, Helen and the driver and some of his aides would come so I knew them, but never had met either Verne Scoggins or Bill Sweige&e At that time, we were kept very aloof from politics, we had nothing to do with what went on over across the street, and the campaign was conducted chiefly from San Francisco, so we were pretty much novices, Judge Sweige& (then Mr. ~weiaert)came up to Sacramento to interview people, -The previous Sunday Helen MacGregor had called me at home and asked me if I would be willing to go over to the governor8s office from the attorney general" office, I said, "Well, that sounded awfully interesting ," Of course I was flattered and would like to, She said, "Well, Mr. Sweigert will be up to interview yon," They were holding the interviews back in the 'supreme court chambers, and two or three of us had been selected to go over, and when it came my turn to go in I said, nI really feel flattered that you-e asked me to go, I thfnk it's going to be awfully interesting! He said, "Interesting! It's gohg to be a lot of damned hard work!" rLaughterJ Which is exactly what it was,

They had selected the staff very carefully, Gal her: And when the day came to-_go in, we moved-- into the governor's office. I suppose you have been told this, but all the files had been removed except for the constitutional documents that had to stay there, like the extradition files and things on which there had to be some sort of a record. But everything else was out, and so we had to start from scratch.

Fry : What would have been left there?

Gallagherr Well, all the unofficial files that accumulate in a governor's office, correspondence, department files, everything was gone . There was nothing left

Off ice Manual Developed by William Sweigert

Gallagher: So we had to start from scratch and set up files and Judge Sweigert was really the one who set up the routines. He developed an office manual which was by far the best I have ever seen, and I've seen plenty of them. It spelled out in detail what each one of us was supposed to do, because none of us knew. There was one person from the previous adminis- stration who had been kept on -- Mrs. Alice Anderson -- and she was eventually made the office supervisor. Originally she was working in the extradition files, and I think largely she was kept because she did have a knowledge of the extradition procedures which were more or less new to anyone coming in there. But after she had worked wlth the administration a little while, they realized she was so completely non-political and such a devoted public servant that she was retained, and eventually was the office supervisor and was there for many, many years in that capacity. She was a very valued and valuable employee. Shers retired now and living up at Newcastle. Well, they started in with this manual, and as I say, each desk was outlined; for instance, the receptionist was told just exactly how people were Gallagher: to be received and what they were to be told: how the governor's calendar was to be handled: every imaginable detail was gone into with great thoroughness. So when the office was set up it was good, it was fine. Everybody knew what they were supposed to do and they did it. Fry: Did you work with Mr. Sweigart on this? Gallagher: Yes, I worked on the actual preparation of it, but it was his, and I imagine in collaboration with Verne Scoggins who knew the press part of it, and Helen NacGregor who knew the office part of it, and Mr. Sweigert, who just has the kind of mind that takes care of detail in everyway. So in this way we had a very beautifully comprehensive office manual to go by, but it was still awfully tough sledding, because we were all new at it, you see.

Fry: How did you end up as Bill Sweigert8s executive secretary? Looks like he came up and interviewed YOU and took YOU -- Gallagher: [Laughter] No he didn't! He just got me by chance, &nd I got him by lucky chance. The day that the governor was inaugurated the office was open to people coming in, and each one of us was given a desk to take the phone calls, because many people were calling. At that time the governor's office was in the corner of the old building where the secretary of state is now, and way down at the extreme southwestern end of the first floor was this big, long office -- the previous executive secretary had sat here. And secretary had a desk right here, so I got this desk, and Mae Sullivan, who was secretary to the state architect, had been borrowed to man the other desk, and Mae and I were old friends, so we had a great time. That was the old executive secretary's desk where she was, and that s where Mr. Sweigert eventually was going to sit, but Mae answered the phones there and I answered the phones at the other desk. And everybody was being ushered in to see the governor Gallagher: and Mrs. Warren, and the receptions were being held, so we took care of the phone calls. When that was over and the day was almost done, Mae was to go upstairs and help get the filing straightened out, and Mr: Sweigert came back from the governor's office and he said, "You just stay there." rhughter) So I stayed there. I was his secretary for years. He'was the executive secretary to the governor, and I was his secretary. Fry: I had in my notes that your title was also -- Gallagher: My title eventually was administrative assistant. As I progressed, you see, I became an administrative assistant. But I went in as secretary to the executive secretary.

Alleged "Bwaina" of the Governor's Officer 19163

Fry: There was quite a lot made in the papers about that time r194-31 of what was either listening devices or sedretarial dictating devices rfound in the governores offices. ] Gallagher: We never were sure. There was something found, and they were very, very quiet about it. Have they talked to you at all about Oscar Jahnsen?

Fry: Yes.

Gallagherr And Ray McCarthy? Ray McCarthy was the governores driver. He was very close to him. He lives up in Sierra City, now. But I don't think he was with him too long, I think he went over to another department. But Oscar was the one I think who did the investigating on this. And they did find some sort of a device but we never knew what it was -- exactly what it was or whether it was still recording at the time -- I never heard. It could have been a connection between the executive secretary's office and Governor Olsones office, you how. Fry : The newspaper account that I read showed pictures of it and I think it said some of the wires led upstairs to a room where there were typists, and then some of them did lead to conference rooms in the governor's suite, It made a pretty dramatic thing. Gallaghert Yes, it was a dramatic thing, but I honestly donmt think that they ever found there was any sinister plot to it -- I donvt know, It was kept very hush- hush. You understand that we were just brand new employees in here, and nobody knew who to trust or what or anything, and there was not an air of suspicion bat an air of discretion, let us say, so when it became known that there had been some sort of device discovered it was very, very hush-hush. Really, none of us knew too much about it,

The Fight for Health Insurance

Fry: Then Earl Warren had his message to the legislature, whfch even that early was pretty fraught with social improvements, Sweigert helped him write that, as I understand it, Is that correct? Gallagher: Yes, bat we are talking about the 1945 message. I think that Judge Sweigert was responsible for many of the progressive ideas in it, I don't mean to say that he put them into the governorvs head; I thfnk they were there; I thfnk that the governor*s that type of person, but I thfnk Judge Sweigert was able to put them in the forms where they eventually reached the legislature. I know that he worked very hard with the governor and with Verne Scoggins] on many of the messages to the legislaE ure. It was in a way a joint effort, but I always felt that Judge Sweigert was the mainspring of the thing, Fry s This would be something, then, that Ivdwant to ask Judge Sweigert a lot of questions on? Gallagherr Yes. Fry: He'd be able to tell us a lot about how the various Fry: programs developed in welfare and health insurance and labor legislation? Gallagher: Particularly in health insurance. I have the feeling that the governor and Judge Sweigert talked a great deal about that before it was finally put into words and presented to the legislature, and it received an awful dressing down, It was terrible,

Fry: They had a lot going against them, didn't they? Gallagherr Yes, and there was a long road to go, and what then was practf cally unheard of is now just run of the mill.

Fry : You mean the idea of pre-paid health insurance?

Gallagher: Yes, the President is proposing catastrophic Lnsurance now, and this is exactly what Governor Warren was proposing -- catastrophic insurance, Of course it was true -- it was true in my own family -- my father was ill and by the time he was gone there was nothing left from all that heed worked for all of his life. That's always been true of so many families, and this is what the governor was thinking about rather tha.n even the medical program we have today, nothing as advanced as that; he was thinking of the terrible illnesses that can sap every cent in a family. Fry: He finally got it through as a labor measure, but it took a lot of -- Gallagher: Oh, it took a lot of time. That first time was really bad. Fry: What was it lfke in the governor's office during the life of that first bill in 19457 Were you in a position to be aware of delegations to the gover- nor, any pressures that -- Gallagher: No, I wasn't, because you see those things would all be handled in the legislative office and there was a separate legislative secretary, His name was Laurence Carr, He was such a fine boy, He went into the Navy and he had two brothers, Gallagherr They come from a big family up at Redding, their father was a judge. One of the brothers, Francis, is with the PG&E and James Carr has had a distinguished public service record.

Fryt I guess Beach Vakey was there probably for the longest -- Gallagherr Yes, I think so.

Fry1 -- in the legislature. Was Carr there for this filrst big push for health legislation 5n 19431 Gallaghert No. Burdette Daniels was Legislative 4ecretary then. Carr was called into the Navy and then Chamberlain came, I think, and then Burdette Daniels. And then Vasey was there for a long, long time.

Fry : Did Sweigert work with the legislature or help legislative secretaries at all in the health insurace fight? Gallagher: I think that the secretaries -- and by "the secretariesw1% referring to Helen MacGregor, Bill Sweigert, Verne Scoggins, and I think that they all met and discussed legislation with the governor and the legislative secretary. I think it was a joint thing, but I think that the legislative secretary was usually the actual contact with the legislators; but Mr. Sweigert did testify on health insurance. Now, sometimes legislators would come in and talk to the executive secretary on a specific thing, but the program as outlined by the governor, which is what I think you mean, was carried f omard by the leg1slat1 ve secretary,

Fry: In the health insurance bout, particularly in the early session on it, did Sweigert actually testify and really go to bat? And if so, was this his usual way of helping aut with the governor's legislative program? How far did he go? Gallagher: He testified before the Assembly Public Health Committee. There was a doctor, Dr. Nathan Sinai, who came out here from the East who was a specialist, Fry: Oh, Dr. Nathan Sinai . Gallagher: Dr. Sinai was a specialist on health insurance, and he testified on behalf of the governorg~sbill.

Fry: Committee of the whole? Gallagher: No. The Assembly Public Health Committee, but it was held in the assembly chambers with practically every member of the legislature In attendance and they just killed the bill. But I donet think that that day any of the governora,s secretaries testified.

Fry : Well, normally would they?

Gallagher: NO. I would feel that unless they were invited specifically by the legislature to testify, that the legislative body would feel that that was an infringement of their prerogatives and their prbvince. ' I've never known of a secretary going up and testifying just simply to testify -- unless they were specifically invited, and I donat remember Judge Sweigert ever testifying on anything but the health insurance bill, I think that Dr. Sinai carried most of the load,

Fry: I see.

Gallagher: Now, Judge Sweigert can correct me on that if I'm wrong, but I don' t think so.

The Job of Administrative Assistant: Correspondence

Gallagher: In my role as the administrative assistant, I scanned all of the outgoing mail for various -- well, for policy, statements of policy, and for typo- graphical errors, for neatness, how the things were set up, and the things that needed the governores personal attention were routed into him for signature. Now this I donet know whether I ought to say or not, but all the others I signed his name to! Fry: Iam sure that every executive does that.

Gallagherr Now, you know, they have a machine that does that. Fry r With real ink in it? Gallagher Yes. Well, Dick [Richard) Tuck was great for all these innovations, and he tried to get one of these machfnes that would do thfs, but it wasn't very SUCC~SS~U~.

Fry r For r~overnor"Pat" Edmund G .I Brown? Gallagher: Yes. I did that job until I quit which was in the second year of Governor Brownt s administration, €19603 and it really was pretty rugged, Well, it wasn8 so rugged after a while because we got these typing machines. Three machines were going in a separate room, and of course we had loads and loads of form letters that had to be answered. You had to have a form. But these machines -- you've seen them -- you just type in the name and address and salutation and then it just phsst, and then does it again. Of course, with those all I had to check was the name and address or whether it said, "Dear Sir," or "Dear whoever it was" and sign it, But a large part of my work was that between campaigns. Scanning the mail -- Fry: Did Warren use many form letters for answers?

Gallagher: NO, not so many, We did have some forms. We had forms when we would get a great influx of mail on some particular subject, We had to have forms. It was the only way you could handle it. But those were all hand-written forms, Each one was separately typed. Well, first of all, they set up a very, very fine mail distrfbuting center. A11 the mail came into this one office, was opened, was what we called "green-slipped" and routed to the secretary who would handle it. A great deal of this was routed to the correspondence unit, because if hundreds of letters came in on one particular subject, there had to be an appropriate form to answer them. Now, we had a woman in charge of' the steno- graphic unit who would go through this mail and mark, "use fom A on this, or form B" -- these forms Gallagher: had been developed to meet the particular situation involved. And these would all be hand typed and hand signed by me with the governort s name,

Fry: I have an idea. Let me check it out with you and you tell me If it8s right. But maybe yon' re the person who would look over outgoing mail and notice who it was to and check it to be sure it didn't have any politically embarrassing statements for that particular person. Was that you?

Gallaghert Of course a thing of that kind would have been dictated by a secretary, and so the chances were that there were very few instances. However, there were a few instances where young men would come into the office and be being broken in, For instance, young men who were traveling with the governor who didn't know too much about the situations that existed, where I would have some knowledge. I would be able to correct it and send a letter back and ask him if he would change this, that or the other.

Fry: I haven't run across any political goofs that happened accidentally that way in the office or any particular hue and outcry or misunderstanding or anything like that. Gallagher: I don't think there were any. I think Helen MacGregor handled most of that before I did, because it was well on into the governores third term, you see, by the time Jim rJames H.] Wley was appointed that I got into ehis branch of the thing.

Works for the National Republican Parts on the 1948 and 1952 Presidential Campaigns

Fry: You worked in the presidential campaigns, as I recall? Gallagher: Eventually, after Judge Sweigert was appointed to the bench, James Oakley came over as executive secretary to the governokgs office. You knew that? I was his secretary. And then when Mr. Oakley was Gallagher: was appointed to the bench, Verne Scoggins asked for me to come back in his office adstart to handle political files. And then I was given an office of my own and that's when I was made administrative assistant. I worked with the campaign offices to this extent. I kept track of all the things that they were doing, you know, that had to do with our office. 1 never worked in ayof the campaigns except the 1948 and the 1952. In 1948 I went off the state payroll and went on the Republican -Ylational payroll and went on a tour with the campaign train all over the country. Then in '52 I went back to Chicago and helped set up the campaign office before the rest of them came.

Fry : An advance man. I wanted to ask you something about the 1948 train in which Warren was campaigning for Thomas E.] Dewey. The information we get on this Ls that Warren was wanting to say more and Dewey was saying, "No, don't say anythlng ." Mary Ellen on the train in the press corps) mentioned toLeary me 6-hat there was a particular speech which Warren made finally in a labor city -- it could have been Philadelphia or it could have been Detroit -- in which Warren finally laid down his labor philosophy. I was over at the State Archives this morning and I think I've found the right speech, the one at Detroit# Do you remember this? The press looked upon it at that time as a very significant speech in which Warren finally went ahead and dealt with a live issue. Gallagher: Yes, that was the interpretation that was put on it. Now I don't think there was anything deliberate done about it. I don't think it was deliberately done. Maybe it just got to the point where he just felt he had to say something. I think there were things he wanted to say because I know I did most of the typing on those speeches. I'd go back in the morning to the car where Governor Warren and Bill Sweigert and sometimes Senator William F.] Knowland, or whoever was involved in &-he thing would be working, and they'd work over the speeches and then I'd go type them and they'd work

*Copy in Earl Warren Archive in The Bancroft Library. Gallagher: over the speeches and then go type them and they'd go back for corrections, and I bow most of the time a lot of material gat knocked out of there that the Chief Justice wanted to put in,

Fry : Well, I was wondering about this speech because in it Warren gave a history of labor legislation, and he deplored the fact that we had been so long without a labor and management policy in the United States, Then he comes up to the Taft-Rartley Bill, which was the big issue, and he says, "If it's not fair I'll change it," AND TEEN he says, 'If I thought the Taft-Hartley law or any other law struck at the fundamental rights of workers to organize or to bargain collectively, or to use their full economic strength to improve their lot, I would fight it with every fiber in my body," And then he goes on to say, "the Republican platform pledges us to this and I know Tom Dewey will do it," Do you remember that? Gallagher: I remember the gist of the thing, I donat remember the exact wording, and I remember the furor that was caused at that time, too, Fry r That's what I want to know, about the furor, Gallagher: Well, I don't know that there was any open break, We had a man traveling with us from Governor Dewey's office, and I didn't thlnk he was very pleased with it, but there was never any outward break that I knew of, but the newspapers were full of it.

Fry: I wondered if there were any changes made on monitoring Warrenos speeches before he gave them after that. rbughter] Gallagherr Oh, I don't think so, I don't know, Maybe this man from Dewey's office monitored all of his speeches, but I don't think so because they'd rush them -- theyod pull them out of' my typewriter and rush them in to get them on the mimeograph to put them on the press car, you know, before weed get into a city where Warren was speaking, Fry: I remember that Mary Ellen Leary told me that the press was always in a state of mild dyspepsia Fry: because the speeches never got off the mimeograph machine until just before they pulled into a place. rkughter] Gallagherr That s right, because they'd all be working and revising and then theyed bring them in and dash them out, and theyed take them in and put them on the mimeograph. Talk about dyspepsia, I practically had an ulcer by the time I got back. rkughter] It wasn't a fun trip, believe me. Oh,-it was. I mean it was marvelous. I wouldnet have missed the experience for anything. But it was hard work.

Fry: I have the schedule of that train and it looks like it was not for anyone who might have had a weak heart !

Gallagher a rLaughter] It wasn't for a sissy. Fry: And V.I.Paes getting on and off -- Gallagher: Oh, by the hundreds, yes. And then we'd get into the city and have a reception and we'd have to get dressed up quickly and go. One thing I remember about that trip that I must tell you, because I've thought about it so often, was Senator rEverett Ma] Dirksen coming in and sitting on my-desk and dictating something to me. And at that time, you know, he was not the figure that he eventually became . He had that plume of blond hair then and that resonant voice, and Ied look at him sometimes on teleoision and think, "He sat on my desk and called me Marguerite." [Laughter] Fry: With the same oleaginous delivery, I bet. [Laughter]

Gallagher r Exactly! Fry: Did you come back to the convention in 1952 by train?

GallagherI No, I flew back.

Fry: Because you had to be there before the others?

Gallagher: Yes, I flew back with Archie rArchibald M. Jr.] Mull, who is an attorney here-in town, Archie and Gallagherr his wife and I flew back to Chicago together and we were at the Hilton and I set up the offices, And then the rest of' them, the delegation came by train a few days later. And then I worked in the office,

Fry: The delegation was kind of badly split at that point, Gallagherr Yes. I worked with Ron Button [A. Ronald Button]. Do you know him? Fry: I only know he was there. Gallagher: I worked with him on the platform committee, which was very interesting. I dldnwtdo any of the actual work, but I was with him during the actual debate on the platform committee.

Fry: What was his position then? Gallagherr He was n.atlona1 committeeman from California, Later he was California state treasurer. Fry: Was it in the platform committee that the fight occurred on the seating of the delegation for -- the Texas delegation was either Eisenhower or Taft. Gallagher: No, I don't, I can't tell you, but that was in the feredentials "Wmmittee -- not the platform Bommittee, Fry: Another question in my mind is Bl11 know land*^ role there. It was a very complicated 5.icture to piece together, but there were the Taft forces and the Eisenhower forces and the Warren forces, all in the microcosm of the California delegation, Bill Knowland was loyal to Earl Warren right down to the last minute -- but as an alternative, as a second loyalty -- was he a Taft man or an Eisenhower man? Gallagher: I don't know,

Fry: What I'm trying to tie down was whether there was a definite offer made to him to be a running mate with Taft, Gallagher: Of course, those things you donot know. Those things are very secretly qone, don'~t you think?

Fry: At the time, yes. Gallagher: At the time they're not matters of general knowledge, and then after the thing is accomplished it doesn't make too much difference. But I donuat know, I just donl1>$ know.

Fry: There is a historican back at Harvard whoos trying to write a book on the 1952 campaign, and he sent me all kinds of questions on this that's opened up new things to wonder about for us. It would be good to get them down. That was one of them. Gallagher: Of course, when I first tamd to you and told you that I didn't see where I could fit into thfs, I really meant it because I was always more concerned with mechanical operations of the office and of any campaign than in the policy part of it. I wasn'ft close enough.

The Republican Conventions

Fry: In the presidential nominating conventions, I suppose your job would be to keep people sorted out and assigned to the right places. What else would you be doing? You got the hotel rooms, right2

Gallagher: No, those things were all taken care of. No, we set up the files, and the first thing I did was to set up a card file assigning to each person in the organization whom they were going to contact and what they were going to do and all that sort of thing, you see, and kept mechanical track of all that. Fry: Wait a mlnute, contact for what? Gallagher: Well, you contact everybody in the other delegations, you know, to get their feeling about things.

Fry r Oh, I see. Gallagher: And two or three people can't be doing the same things, or going to the same person, and so those things all have to be worked out mechanically, and that is a pretty time-consumLng job in itself,

Fry: You tried to select the people who already knew somebody in another delegation? Gallagher: T$mt1s right, or there might be some indication that they might be interested as a second choice, or something of that kind. Because most of them have a favorite son,

Fry: What about tabulations, then, straws in the wind and things like this? Gallaghert They weren't havldled by us.

Fry: Who were they handled by? Was there a political staff? Gallagher: In '52 they would have been handled by men like Ron Button and rJames 8.1 Americh,

Fry: So, their job was to keep track of who might vote for Earl Warren in case of a deadlock between Taft and Eisenhower? Gallagher: Well, it was these men who were on the governor8s team who were doing all this, you know, going down and mixing with all these people, The only time that I was out of the office, actually, was if the governor was speaking -- like when they presented the Republican platform I was in the auditorium, but otherwise I was in the office all the time,

Fry r Well, what about the development of the platform, itself, Were you in on those discussions? Gallagher: I was in on some of those discussions, yes, and there was a great deal of controversy about them,

Fry : Wasnst that the year that the Republicans came out for FEPC on ciwl rights? Gallagher: I think so, yes, and I think there was quite a fight in the platform committee about that. I think so.

Continuing Political Work between Campaigns

Gallagher: During the presidential campaigns, I was off' the state payroll. But when I was working in the governor's office, the only political work I did was to keep track of what the campaign offices were doing, and lists of people who were interested, I mean, the . Attorneys Committee for the Election sf Earl Warren as President, who was on that, who was in charge of this and that and the other thing, and the correspondence; Then after the campaigns I would have the material that the governor needed to make up his statement that he had to make to the secretary of State, campaign contributions and all that sort of thing.

Fry : Oh yes, !I have a copy of your handiwork here. Between elections you were the person who was politically acute enough to keep things going. Verne Scoggins said that we shouldn*~tOver- emphasise the importance of the formal political campaigns of Earl Warren for governor, because after all he had such efforts going on between elections so that by the time a campaign came along it was never really difficult. Re had his llBeports to the Peoplen once a month on radio and things like this . Gallagher: That's right, and he was working on these things all the time, so it wasn't a matter of just sitting down and saying, "What can we promise this time?" because they were continuing programs that were 'being implemented all the time. It would be to improve the program.

Fry: What about 1950 when he ran against Roosevelt? Gallagher: In 1950 I was doing the kind of work I was telling you I was doing -- keeping in touch with the campaign work -- I think that's when Ron Button came into the picture and came up here and set up a campaign office. Fry: - By up here, you mean Sacramento? Gallagher: Sacramento. He came up from Los Angeles, because I know I went around with him to try and find a place for a campaign office and we finally located one. Fry: Did you hear anything about a possible problem with campaign '*jFunding in $50, or anything like ithat? I think there was a changing pattern of his support at that point, because he pretty well alienated the oil industry and doctors and other associated sectors of the public?

Gallagher: No. If they had any difficulty I never knew it. Fry: He almost got both nominations that -bime, too, but not quite. Gallagher: Not qufte, and then they did away with cross filing,

Fry: In these reports which you helped pull together on campaign expense and income, those were the donations that were made to Earl Warren in Sacramento, Is that right? I'm trying to figure out how to read these because it was only part of them that were required to be reported. Gallagherr Just those that were directly given to the governor are required to be reported. But for instance, if a lawyer.4~ committee sets up a "lawger8s committee for Earl Warren, and people are contributing to tha-b fund, the governor doesn't have to report that because he has no actual knowledge of it.

Fry: The monies that were collected in southern California and those in the San Francisco office of northern California, were those considered separate sort of things? Gallagher: If they were in the campaign office, they were all reported in the one report, They had to be at the end of the campaign,

Fry: Does that also include the southern California campaign office?

Gallagher: Yes, everything, Fry r But then it was the Republican Women for Earl Warren, and Democrats for Earl Warren, and hbor for Earl Warren, all these committees then would not necessarily report. Gallagher: No, you see, because that money was given to them to work with, and not directly to the governor. That8Is always the way the reports were made up.

Fry: Was that true for primaries and the election? Gallagherr I think so, Double check me with somebody on it, but I think SO,

Fry: Did you people in the office see Mrs. Warren very much? Gallagherr Well, after they moved Up here we saw quite a good deal of her, one of the girls was assigned eventually to go over and work in the mansion with her because she had so much correspondence. You know, so many people wrote to her she c0n1dn'~t possibly handle it. She was very gracious and very sweet with all of us. In fact, all the first ladies have been,

Fry a Oh, I wanted to ask you too, if you have any papers or reports that Judge Sweigert and I could work with? Gallagher: Nothing, not a thing. I didnee take a thing away from the office with me, In fact, all the official papers were impounded, you know. I mean they were put under lock and key for I think ten years or something like that, More than that, I did have a few of Governor Knight's papers which I eventually sent to him because he left them in my care. But no, nothing from the other administration. I'm not a saver of things. I think there were probably lots of things I could have saved, but I don't know for whom. They'd be interesting to someone like you, yes, that% true, but you don't think at the time that youare probably living in history and that someone would enjoy knowing about it some day!

Transcriber and Final Typist: Gloria Dolan INDEX -- Narguerite Gallagher

Anderson, Alice 8 Arnerich, James A. 22 Assembly Public Health Committee 13-14 attorney general 1-6

Brown, Edmund G. 15 Button, A. Ronald 20, 22-23

Carr, Francis 13 Carr, James 13 Carr, Laurence 12-13 Chamberlain, R. Lee 4 Chamberlain, Richard 13 civil rights 22 civil service 4 constitution, California 1-3, 8 courts j

Daniels, Burdette 13 Dewey, Thomas 17-18 Dirksen, Everett 19

Eisenhower, D. D. 22 extradition 8

f inmce , campaign 23-25 governor, office of 8-13 correspondence 14-16, 23, 25

Harrison, Robert 4 health insurance 12-14 Hession, Jess 1, 3 Jahnsen, Oscar 4, 10

Knight, Goodwin 25 Knowland, William F. 17, 20 labor 17-18 Leary, Mary Ellen 17-18 legislature, California 3, 5, 11-14

MacGregor, Helen 4, 7, 13, 16 McBride, Thomas Francis 1-2 McCarthy, Ray 4, 10 Mull, Archibald 19 national campaigns (1948 & 1952) 16-23 newspapers 10-11, 17-16

Oakley, James 4, 16 Olney, Warren 4 Olson, Culbert 5, 10 politics 5, 7-8, 16-23 Power, E, Be 4

Reclamation Board, California 3 Republican party 17-23 Roosevelt, James 23

Scoggins, Verne '7, 11, 13, 17, 23 Sinai, Nathan 13-14 Sullivan, Mae 9-10 Sweigert, William 2, 7-14, 16-17, 25

Taft-Hartley Act 18 Taft, Robert 20, 22 Tuck, Richard 15

Vasey, Beach 13 Warren, Earl attorney general 1-5 governor 7, 9-15 national campaigns 17-23 Warren, Nina (Mrs. Earl) 10, 25 Webb, U.S. 1-5 Amelia R. Fry

Instructor, freshman English at University of Illinois and at Hiram College. Reporter, suburban daily newspaper, 1966-67.

Author of articles in professional and popular journals; instructor, summer Oral History Institute, University of Vermont, 1975, 1976, and oral history workshops for Oral His tory Association and historical agencies ; consultant to other oral history projects; oral history editor, Journal of Library ~istory,1969-1974 ; secretary, the Oral History~ssociation,1970-1973. . Gabrielle Morris

B.A. in economics, Connecticut College, New London; independent study in journalism, creative writing.

Historian, U.S. Air Force in England, covering Berlin Air Lift, military agreements, personnel studies, 1951-52.

Chief of radio, TV, public relations, major New England department store; copy chief, network radio and TV station in Hartford, Connec- ticut ; freelance theatrical publicity and historical articles, 1953-55.

Research, interviewing, editing, community planning in child guidance, mental health, school planning, civic unrest, for University of California, Berkeley Unified School District, Bay Area Social Planning Council, League of Women Voters, 1956-70.

Research, interviewing, editing on state administration, civic affairs, and industry, Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library, University of California at Berkeley, 1970-present. The Bancroft Library University of California, Berkeley Regional Oral History Office

Earl Warren Oral History Project

Verne Scoggins

OBSERVATIONS ON CALIFORNIA AFFAIRS BY

GOVERNOR EARL WARREN'S PRESS SECRETARY

An Interview Conducted by

Gabrielle Morris

@ 1973 by The Regents of the University of California TABLE OF CONTENTS - Verne Scoggins

INTERVIEW HISTORY

I THE OLSON ADMINISTRATION

II WARREN'S USE OF THE POLITICAL PROCESS Campaigning for Governor Welfare Politics National Republican Platforms Warren and the People Postwar Pressures Presidential Campaigns I11 THE OFFICE OF THE GOVERNOR Med ia Relations Governors' Conferences Population Growth First Term Matters Warren 's Image IV ELEMENTS OF CALIFORNIA POLITICAL CAMPAIGNING Cross -Filing Nonpartisanship and Campaign Structure Political Importance of Newspapers Dealing with Opposition Campaigning from Strength California Water Problems Public Relations and Organization V A JOURNALIST'S CAREER The Stockton Record Public Utilities Commissioner: 1953-1955 Postal Service Reorpanization Campaign Consultant Warren's Appointment as Chief Justice Public Relations Sampler

PARTIAL LIST OF MATERIALS WRITTEN BY VERNE SCOGGINS

INDEX INTERVIEW HISTORY

Verne Scoggins was interviewed by the Regional Oral History Office in order to preserve a record of his extensive knowledge of the theory and practise of political public relations covering more than forty years; a career he began as a representative of The Stockton Record's distinguished publisher, Irving Martin, Sr.; continuing as press secretary and campaign coordinator for Governor Earl Warren throughout his administration; and subsequently as a consultant on a number of significant political campaigns; in addition to service as a Public Utilities Commissioner and regional director of the U.S. Post Office Department.

Conduct of the Interview: Two tape-recorded interviews were held with Scoggins, on December 7,1970, and January 14, 1971, in his handsome apartment on Cathedral Hill, with a sweeping view of San Francisco from which he enjoyed showing the visitor progress in the changing skyline. A small terrace filled with flourishing potted plants recalled his youth in the Central Valley farm country and his lifelong associations with agricultural leaders. A brusque, businesslike but not unfriendly man, Scoggins carefully prepared his answers to selected questions on topics which had been discussed at a preliminary meeting. He did considerable tightening up of the manuscript when he received the rough-edited transcript of the interviews, but also added a number of passages describing activities about which the interviewer had not questioned him. The interviews contain a number of effective, succinct statements on the general influences at work in California's economic and political life and the procedures involved in planning and carrying out a political campaign, but are cautious in comments about individuals and sensitive issues.

Scoggins was delegated by Martin to work on Warren's first campaign for governor in 1942. Warren not only took him to Sacramento to help set up the governor's office as press secretary, but also appointed Scoggins as an interim Highway Commissioner in January, 1943, a holding operation during investigation of alleged violation of wartime rationing by the previous administration's commission. Although he is modest about his contributions to Warren's policy decisions, another influential journalist commented that "Verne was on the inside soon after Warren went to Sacramento."

During succeeding election years, Scoggins went off the state payroll and onto Governor Warren's campaign staff. He provided the greatest detail in discussing Warren's first campaign for and first term as governor. Although specific questions were raised, the 1946 and 1950 campaigns and subsequent terms are mentioned almost incidentally, giving the impression that, from Scoggins' point of view, things were running smoothly and became a matter of the recipe as before. The 1948 and 1952 presidential elections are discussed briefly, with interesting data on the mechanics of national campaigns.

In this memoir, politics is visible as a contin- uous process periodically punctuated by elections which are, in turn, indicators of the current status of that political process. For instance, Warren's speeches, many of which were drafted by Scoggins and which he quoted in the interview, reflect the cumulative political effectiveness of maintaining constant contact with the electorate through the day-to-day activites of governing. Scoggins is an excellent exponent of these and other specific techniques in the practise of skilled public relations, from the details of a small city campaign to the tapestry of national socio-economic realities. With his long view of public affairs, Scoggins cautions us against being unduly influenced by dramatic appearances, pointing out that emphasis on the emotional aspects of events is a basic tool of politics, and also of the media.

Trained as a newspaperman when the press was the major communications medium and publishers were major intellectual and civic leaders, Scoggins drew interesting comparisions with the development of radio and television and their impact on campaigning. The tape recorder, too, appeared to cause him some reservations. He seemed to most enjoy a final, unrecorded, session with the interviewer, scheduled to supply additional illustrative anecdotes.. On a sunny morning in April, 1972, sitting at a card table piled with the pages of his edited interview manuscript, he discussed the implications of each of a series of written questions, challenging assumptions in the interviewer's questions and in turn responding to her requests for clarification, then rapidly typing a brisk answer that summarized the whole conversation.

To illustrate the major phases of his work with Earl Warren, Scoggins selected a series of photographs from his personal files for inclusion in the manuscript. He preferred this means of presenting his own photograph, rather than the customary formal frontispeice. He also donated to the Warren archive a generous selection of press releases and campaign materials, including his advance man's handbook from 1948, campaign position papers, and national convention memorabilia. A full file of Warren's speeches during the vice-presidential campaign train trip is among the papers of reporter Mary Ellen Leary in The Bancroft Library.

Gabrielle Morris, Interviewer Regional Oral History Office

7 July 1972 486 The Bancroft Library University of California at Berkeley C. VERNE SCOGGXNS (his background) 1333 GOUGH STREET PUBLIC REMTIDNS CONSULTANT SAN FRANCISCO wid.^ experience in statewide and national political campaigns, legislative presentations, corporate communicalions and natural resource cleveLcpment projects. Frequently associated with Whitaker and Baxter, public relations firm, in California, Washington D.C., and other st.ates.

- Statewide campaign to increase state bond interest limitation. - Organizing Washington, D.C. office for grape grower anti-boycott national campai-gn. - Statewide campaign against property tax limitation. - Sta.tei(ride campaign in behalf of a merit selection plan for ju.dicia1 appointnznts . - Campaign for San Francisco International Airport bond Issue. - Introduction of Western Opera Theater, a. San Francisco Opera Co. subsidiary, to ~esternstates audiences and schools. - Washington, D.C. based campaign to develop national SU~FO~~for a consti-tational amendment permittins states to apportion one house of a state legislatv.re on a basis other than population alone. (the Dirksen Amendment ) -. Statewide campaFgn to win approval of the California Constitutional Revision Comnission rewrite of the State Constitution. - Campaign "L acquaint public ?:ith ?Jestern Pacific Railrozd Co. reasons 5'cr bt'anting to discontinue the Zephjr train betv~een Chicago a,nd San Francisco. - Anti-featherbedding initiative campaign in behalf of California rail-roads. - State~videcampaign to defeat Los Angeles plan for reapportionment of stat2 legislature.

..---~956-61- Regional Director, United States Post Office Depa-rtment , Chief postal. official. in states of Californiz, Nevada, Eawaii and the mandated Pacific Islands. Helped activate the Hoover Conmission recon~endationsto decentralize and regionalize the nation's postal system. -1953-55 - Member, California Public Utiltties Co~mission. Practical experience with California regulatory problems as they relate to utility and industrial growth. 1943-53 - Governor s Office, CaliZornia. News and public relations secretary snd canpaign coordinator for Governor Earl Warren. - MemSer, Califcrrlia State Highwa,y. Co~missionduring formative days of freeway system,

California. Ne~~~spapeirrnan-- Reporter, poli,t;ical editor, editorial writer and assistant to publisher, Stockton Record. Free lance mscazinz writer on westem farm, marketing and water resource p~.obZerns. Date of Interview: December 7, 1970

I THE OLSON ADMINISTRATION

Morris: First I'd like to ask,what was the political atmosphere in Cali- fornia in 1942 when Warren was elected governor? Then I 'd like to ask, how -did he get elected? Scoggins: To best answer such questions, it's rather essential, I think, to try to understand some of the specific, overlapping happenings of the day. In other words, some of the political currents and cross- currents that preceded as well as surrounded the year 1942.

To start with, 1942 was a serious period of World War 11. California was actually a staging area and a theatre of war. It was a period of phenomenal national expenditure, unprecedented shifts in population and of rapid recovery from an economic depression. Rising state revenues brought on by war-induced economic expansion were becoming a consideration. It was obviously a period demanding both action and planning.

I think the prevailing emotion at the moment was really well expressed by Earl Warren in his 1943 inaugural address to the state legislature. In his opening paragraphs he said, and I quote: 've meet here today under circumstances which strip the occasion of all gloss and pompous ceremony. We meet as men and women assembled to undertake an emergency task, a task which for fulfill- ment will require that adherence to unity of purpose which we find in our fighting men as they respond to the call to their battle stations. 11

To this, he (I think significantly) added, and I quote, "I feel that you legislators sitting before me will rise to a man in seconding the declaraction that we must not leave these halls without a record of accomplishment in keeping with need. I know we are in agreement in the abstract thought that we have a patriotic duty to perform, but more than that, I believe we are in agreement that we must immediately remove all mental barriers and get to work."

Morris: What didhemeanby "mentalbarriers?" Scoggins: mat's about the best question you could ask. Certainly no analysis of things as they were in 1942 could be considered complete if it did not include recognition of at least some of the accumulated political, social and economic influences that had been and were still interfering with legislative progress. I'd list some of them as: the carry-over influence of the national Democratic landslide of 1932; the Upton Sinclair Production for Use campaign; the Ham and Eggs campaigns; the battles over relief administration policy; the regimenting of unemployed,and numbers of lesser social proposals that still had apparent appea.1 to un- measured blocs of voters in Southern California. And, added to the general list should be the influence of the newly existing split between the AFL and the CIO.

Raging at full tilt through all these months was an open and almost daily clash, at all levels of government, over two existing governmental theories--state direction versus home rule, with a dash of federalism thrown in for good measure. Day in and day out the challenge was being raised over whether the legislature or the governor really represented the people and just how seriously the voices of cities and counties should be considered. The focal point much of the time was the relief program which had taken a political toll during the administrations of both Governor Merriam and Governor Olson. In their time both of these governors provoked the fury of county supervisors and the home rule groups. Olson's election victory over Merriam strengthened his attitude. He was highly conscious of the Production-For-Use bloc, the Ham and Eggs contingent, the Roosevelt policy of centralizing power and his own varied campaign experiences. He demanded a bigger and better State Relief Administration instead of decentralization, He added fuel, as you can well imagine, to the explosive question of whether the legislative majority should rule. His opponents possessed the power to muster a legislative majority but Olson, of course, possessed the power of veto. Debate over issues often raged until two and three o'clock in the morning. Sometimes the legislature was able to override a veto but more often deadlocks occurred, The number of bills the Olson threat of veto held back is countless and added materially to the frustration and delay.

Morris: Would you saywelfare policies and costswere the cause of most of the political difficulties?

Scoggins: Along with the accompanying tax problem. Even Economy Bloc leadership often had trouble agreeing on tax policy but the noisy deadlocks developed chiefly over the issue of who would administer the programs,

It might help in the understanding of this seemingly ever- present political problem to go back a few years before 1942 and have a look at some of the foundations of the dispute, Back in Scoggins: 1937, for example, the county supervisors of the state goaded the legislature into approving a bill which would have returned relief administration to the counties. Governor Frank Merriam agonized for a time and then vetoed the bill. Olson, then a state senator, voted with the legislative majority to return relief administration to the counties.

The State Relief Administration grew by leaps and bounds in the years to follow. It got itself entangled in charges of being left-wing or communist-dominated and was regularly investigated by legislative committees which continued to recommend that relief in all its forms should be administered by the counties with the state coordinating the program. Olson by this time had displaced Merriam as governor and become an ardent supporter of state control. The legislative majority retaliated by refusing to make large lump sum appropriations to SRA. It resorted to the practice of prolonging its sessions through the process of recesses and kept up a constant investigation which led to some SRA workers going to jail for defiance of the legislature and to the advance of a belief that the SRA appropriations could be cut without serious injury. The real issue was who was going to run the SRA. Even though subsequent elections have changed some of the emphasis, I think it can be said the issue has lived on through the years.

Morris: The issue must have really plagued Olson through all his years in office?

Scoggins: That is very true. It was plaguing everybody in those days and particularly because little tangible was happening even after long and emotional legislative battles. In general Olson was caught in a transition period when national political battles were developing over efforts to end or modify numerous depression- created programs. There just wasn't my such thing as status quo.

Morris: Was there more severe unemployment in California than in other parts of the country?

Scoggins: It might have been argued, but I wouldn 't agree. By the end of Olson's term employment was on the upgrade because of rapidly expanding war-induced industrial production. Each improvement opened the door for a battle over the amounts that should be expended for relief and what new programs should be inaugurated.

Morris : I see. It was nationa.1 level versus state level versus county 1eveLhighlighted by temptations arising from improving state income . Scoggins: That's about it. Olson was caught in a political adjustment phenomenon which in itself was being accentuated by a constant Scoggins: increase in Southern California's voting strength. The dominant groups he attempted to speak for were constantly changing from what they were when they first sent him to the state senate and then on to the governorship. He was a Democrat and proud of it,but those were days when his party was both growing and changing. In the face of this he made what I think was his biggest political mistake. He thought the Democratic nomination would be tantamount to election and he was wrong. Hundreds of thousands of middle-of-the-road Democrats just wouldn't follow him any longer.

Morris: What caused these changes in Democratic thinking? Scoggins: The constant increase in numbers of registered Democrats, the existence of new jobs which tended to erase a lot of depression thinking, growth and job factors which turned a lot of Democrats into middle-of-the-roaders in their economic thinking and an underlying concern with war issues. I1 WARREN'S USE OF WE POLITICAL PROCESS

Campaigning for Governor

Morris: This was going into the election of 1942. Olson apparently faced changes that he wasn't as familiar with as he might have been.

Scoggins: A governor can be familiar with many things he can't do much about. That was one of his problems.

Morris: Okay. So that brings us down to the '42 election. Can we bring Earl Warren into the picture? He was already attorney general.

Scoggins: Yes, Earl Warren came into this a.tmosphere from the position of attorney general. I think anyone would have conceded he could easily have been re-elected attorney general if he had desired, but after long deliberation, and a couple of disagreements with Olson over state procedures, he chose otherwise. I think his words addressed to the legislature at the time of his ina.uguration spell out his personal motivation. It should be remembered the attorney general of California in many instances serves as the attorney for the governor's office as well as other offices,so he was not unfamiliar with what was going on in most areas of concern.

But to continue to talk about the 1942 campaign, I think we can start by saying specific knowledge and sincerity of purpose are not the only things required to get a man's governorship race underway. The state still had a Democratic governor who wanted to be re-elected and there were few Democratic aspirants to challenge him. At the same time the state was not lacking in aggressive people in the Republican pa.rty who had their own ideas about what the party should be doing. Actually, however, there was no shining light in the party who could step forward and automatically don the mantle of Republican nominee. On Scoggins: balance it could be said Warren came the closest because of his attorney general victory.

Morris: Then Warren was really the choice of the Republican party?

Scoggins: As time for filing approached,the realists began to advance the argument that the Republican who could beat Governor Olson would be the Republican who could split the dominant Democratic vote. 'ihis certainly was my view and I know it was the view of Irving arti in and his publisher associates. It was recognized that many Democrats no longer liked Olson and had less liking for his noisy supporters. There was known latent support for anyone who was believed to be a man who could get the legislative processes moving again.

Warren was slow to get into the race but when he did he hoisted a banner that fitted the Republican victory need. He entered the campaign as a Republican nonpartisan candidate, using the then-existing California election law which permitted cross-filing. He filed for the Republican and Democratic party nominations. Olson filed for only the Democratic nomination and did so deliberately in the face of the fact that Warren had a specific advantage over any other possible Republican candidate. He had been elected attorney general of the state after winning the Republican, Democrat and Progressive party primary nominations.

Morris: All three?

Scoggins: All three of them. In campaign circles in 1942'it soon became generally conceded that Earl Warren had the Republican nomination in the bag and would win the governorship if he could split the Democratic vote in keeping with potentials.

Morris: Let me interrupt right there and ask your explanation of how Earl Warren had such phenomenal success in his campaign for attorney general of California?

Scoggins: Well, actually Warren's emergence on the state political scene was the outcome of a series of events that probably could only have happened in the California of that day. It was really due to a combination of circumstances. As a young attorney he took a job in the city attorney's office in Oakland and attracted enough-attention-to be given a job in the Alameda County district < - attorney's office by the veteran district attorney Ezra DeCoto. When DeCoto decided to retire,Warren had the votes on the county board of supervisors to win the district attorney appointment. As district attorney he won national attention with his prosecution of a number of public officials involved in graft and in general built a reputation for being able as well as courageous. Scoggins: The story began to spread that if veteran Attorney General U. S. Webb ever decided to retire,Warren would be a logical choice as his successor. Webb had held the job since almost the turn of the century and no one, not even Warren, was anxious to challenge him. As a matter of fact,Warren and Webb became quite friendly.

Then in 1938 Webb finally decided to retire. No district attorney or attorney in the state was as well known and had the publicized background of Warren. No one had a brighter record in regard to fearless prosecution. No one stood higher in the Republican party (he had been national committee chairman) and it must be remembered California was essentially a Republican state in those days. Just as no one had wanted to challenge Webb for the attorney general's job, Warren found an almost clear path open for himself. He filed for the Republican, Democrat and Progressive party nominations and won them all even though the Democrats made great headway in winning other offices.

Morris: Let me ask, where did you fit into the Warren campaign picture in 19k?

Scoggins: My boss in those days was Irving Martin, Sr., publisher of the Stockton Record and chairman of the Earl Warren campaign.

Morris: Statewide ?

Scoggins: At the moment we are talking about it was pretty much of a Northern Ca.lifornia-directed activity. Southern California was being probed for Warren support. Mr. Martin had served in the same campaign capacity in the campaigns of Governors C. C. Young and Hiram Johnson and was anything but an amateur in analyzing political issues and trends. My particular contribution to the first campaign came largely from my background of having, as a newspaper man, covered the state legislature for several years and having not only editorial experience, but having been an area campaign manager in several state-wide campaigns and at one time a traveling campaign secretary for Governor C. C. Young. And so I was called upon to submit campaign suggestions. Some of them I later on saw Earl Warren follow and others I heard no more of, but that was ever thus in a campaign.

Incidentally, C. C. Young was the governor who created the first California budget and a cabinet or department system of management under that budget. One of my early chores for Young was to try to see that each cabinet member learned to have something newsworthy to say at each cabinet meeting. In other words, create a sounding board for state policy and progress reports. Morris: You must have had a pretty close association with Warren then, before he ran for governor? When did you meet him?

Scoggins: My meeting him resulted from activities in Sacramento. As attorney general he had an office in Sacramento and numerous press contacts. Through this and his association with Irving Martin,I got to know him fairly well before he entered the governor contest.

Morris: In other words while he was attorney general?

Scoggins: Yes, while he was attorney general and thinking about running for governor.

Morris: In your political reporting had you any special interest in his - ac&i$ties in Alameda County? -

Scoggins: Not really. We didn't attempt to serve Oakland newswise but we did follow the general news,for we had circulation that bordered the Oakland Tribune which was his hometown paper at the time. He really had a great friend in the Oakland Wibune.

Morris: Back in the thirties he was active in the California Republican Assembly, wasn't he?

Scoggins: While he was in Oakland he was active, along with the Knowlands, in many Republican groups. His Republican Assembly activity contributed to his statewide acquaintanceship and developed a nucleus for him that lasted for years. As district attorney he became widely known among law enforcement officers and won national recognition for his work as a vigorous prosecutor. As attorney general he likewise attracted national attention and built many friendships that lasted for years. His many activities in fraternal groups and charity drives likewise provided statewide acquaintanceships.

Morris: Were these some of the things Mr. Martin thought looked promising in a candidate for governor?

Scoggins: Mr. Martin was doing what everybody was doing, analyzing the problem and trying to find the man who could best face up to the things that had to be done in Sacramento. Earl Warren's background was,of course carefully analyzed by all leaders of those times. In summary, I think they usually concluded that Earl Warren had a lot of things going for him. As I have said, he was widely known fraternally in the state, nationally known as an attorney and as a highly successful prosecutor. He had a recognized working knowledge of many things that were happening in the state which added authority to his assertions. And he was running at a time when conditions in Sacramento were ripe Scoggins: for a change and ripe for the type of leadership which he could obviously provide. In a way it could be said the situation and the circumstances were a.lmost made to order for the Warren candidacy.

In addition to all this, he was blessed with a. family that rounded out his campaign image in an exceptional manner. Once seen, the photos of the Warren family were long remembered. In fact it later was sometimes sadly lamented by his opponents that: 'be might beat Warren, but we can't beat his family."

Morris: All those beautiful girls!

Scoggins: That's really not a bad thing to have said about a candidate's home life and background. It rounds out an image that can easily attract lasting voter support in a wide spectrum of society.

Morris: Wasn't there a radio debate between Warren and Olson? Was this a usual campaign technique? Did you feel it was successful for Warren?

Scoggins: At the very beginning of the 1942 campaign, I believe there was a debate between Warren and Olson, but only one, as far as I can recall. My own position was against such debates and I made it known. I have never been one for wanting to help build an audience for an opponent and in addition to that there are too many things that can go wrong in a debate that have no purpose insofar as an issue is concerned.

Morris: You mentioned Earl Warren's decision to have a nonpartisan campaign. I gather that not everybody was in agreement with the idea?

Scoggins: That's quite true. Actually there were several areas of opposition and apathy in regard to Earl Warren in existence at the time. There was opposition and some reticence among a number of Republicans and business people, particularly in Southern California., who didn't believe he would be just their kind of a Republican. Some of them felt so deeply that they practically removed themselves from the 1942 primary campaign. They took a position that virtually meant they would rather see the office lost to their party than lose their own position in the party structure. Some of this carried on into the final campaign. Warren's use of both Republicans and Democrats on campaign committees and in statewide publicity came as quite a shock to some of them. But, it certainly proved a tool that cut away large numbers of supporters from Olson. Morris: Were there other types of opposition?

Scoggins: Yes, there were several reactions that had to be considered. There were those, and some of them were also very prominent in business and Republican circles, who rather liked, under the circumstances, the fact that as long as Olson was governor no real controversial legislation could be pushed through the legislature. In their conv6rsations they took the position that they didn't know what Earl Warren would do but they did know what Olson couldn't do. !hey felt they had the liberals checked. They had been able to upset the liberal Democrat speakership in the state assembly and dramatized their achievement by having the new speaker, Gordon Garland, a conservative Democrat, symbolically sever all connections with the governor's office by tearing the telephone at the speaker's desk out by the roots.

Morris: 'Ibis was while Olson was governor?

Scoggins: Olson was governor. Assemblyman Paul Peek, a Southern California liberalDemocrat, was the ousted speaker of the assembly. The new speaker who replaced Peek was, as I have said, a conservative Democrat. Republicans didn't have enough members in the assembly to elect a speaker but their votes proved enough to tip the scales for a conservative Democrat. Quite naturally some of the people who had influence enough in the assembly to oust a speaker in mid-session weren't particuarly anxious to see this ground lost.

Peek, incidentally, was given a secretary of state appointment by Olson and just before Olson left office he gave Peek a court of appeals appointment. Should I comment that politics wa.s realistic even in those days.

M0rri.s: And while this was going on,the Warren campaign was beginning to take shape?

Scoggins: It was really the rank and file and the press that gave Earl Warren his first real encouragement and strengthened his belief his campaign could best succeed on the basis of nonpartisanship. 'Ihis meantgeneralizing on party issues, attacking Olson for his failure to produce results in Sacramento and calling for a new approa& to wartime problems. This strategy won Warren nearly as many Democratic votes in the 1942 primary campaign as Olson received, and since he had 90 per cent of the Republican votes, mere mathematics made the final race look easy if Warren continued his nonpartisan emphasis.

Morris: That's quite an impressive primary campaign. What were some of the newspapers urging him to continue this nonpartisan approach? Scoggins: Well, I think most editors at the time were convinced that there had to be a change in Sacramento and had pretty well analyzed Earl Warren in the light of what was needed as well as his public service record. This in itself had a tendency to promote a nonpartisan approach. I might add that Warren's nonpartisan approach also served him well in his later campaigns, even though it never failed to irritate some of the Republican leaders and often caused despair in official Democratic party leadership circles. It consistently brought him thousands of middle-of-the-road Democratic votes and it brought him the repeated support of many otherwise Democratic- minded editors and publishers, such, for example, as the McClatchey papers in Sacramento, Modesto and Presno, the Woodland Democrat and the Santa Barbara Press. And it added many labor leaders to his list. He always had strong rank and file labor support. In fact, we used to say, I%o one is for Earl Warren except the people ." Morris: Did the bickering between various groups of Republicans continue all through his years in elective office? How did he feel about it? Scoggins: Unless things got real personal he was never bothered by such bickering. He sort of considered the source, thought he understood why, and continued in his own way. In his later years as governor I heard him answer such a question by saying: '30 man can be governor for nine years and not make enemies. I've made qy share and for various reasons. t1 Personally I wouldn't try to enumerate those reasons, but I can say many of them stem from his conviction that in that particular period of strife caused by wartime and postwar needs there was need for action that could be best accomplished by nonpartisan effort. When he told legislators at the outset: "I want to work with you" he really upset a lot of political plans. In that inau- . gural address he said: I1In rising to the normal responsibility imposed upon us, it is obvious that we mst cut out all the dry rot of petty politics, partisan jockeying, inaction, dictatorial stub- bornness and opportunistic thinking. We must seek with singleness of purpose to make every use of the tools, to close the niches of weakness and harden the resistance to the impacts to come. 11

For politicians with patronage and favors in mind there can be both disappointment and frustration in that array of words. lheir true meaning quickly spread among the rank and file voters in both parties, however, and Warren was the beneficiary. Four yeys later the Earl Warren campaign billboards voiced a simple plea: %e- elect a Good Governor ." The results were extrremly pleasing on election day and especially pleasing to me, because the slogan was one I had coined. Welfare Politics

Morris: You have given emphasis to the f'rustrations and problems caused the legislature and a parade of governors by social welfare programs. Did Earl Warren offer a f'resh approach to the overall problem?

Scoggins: Yes, I think he did and in two ways. He started out by taking the position the people of California did not want a partisan social welfare program. Repeatedly he asserted the people do not want human mistery made the subject of politics and that 11they want sound programs based on the needs of recipients and the ability of the state to pay." He held resolutely to this position in his campaign against Olson and throughout the years to follow as he sought to broaden government's concern with social welfare problems.

Morris: In other words it became sort of a Warren campaign creed?

Scoggins: I remember he carried the sa.me message into the annual Governors' Conference in 1949 at Colorado Springs. First he reminded the governors of those days when the concept of governmentts obligation to relieve distress was limited to the "alms house" for the poor, the "pest house" for those whose illness adversely affected the public health and the "insane asylum" "not for cure but to protect society from the mentally ill.If As an administrator with experience he told the governors the subject of social welfare must cut across most problems in government and involved inter- governmental relations as well as relations between government and the individual. And, he warned the governors to expect welfare change just as they must come to expect day to day changes in all phases of American life.

Morris: You mentioned he changed things in two ways. What was the other?

Scoggins: The other relates to what he did to head off partisan socialwelfare programs. On this subject he could be provoked into using some pretty strong language. When George McLain and his pension group began to make pressure demands upon Warren and the , legislature they soon found they were tangling with a buzz saw. There was no question but what McLain had an emotionalized following of elderly people whom he had convinced he could help increase their pensions, and that these old people were keeping McLain well financed through small weekly and monthly donations. McLain was quite a showman and he strutted his way around capitol corridors in great fashion. At one time, for example, he had a daily radio program out of Sacramento in which he told his listeners what he was doing in Sacramento in their behalf. I recall interfering with one of his stunts which was to enter the reception room to Scoggins: the governor's office and record a portion of his program as "coming direct f'rom the governor's office. " The day finally came when Warren as governor tangled with McLain and no punches were pulled. For example, Warren announced: f II want to say to the citizens of the state that I was working for old age pensions long before George McLain ever conceived the idea of shaving his living off pension payments to our older citizens. It was not the George McLains who developed our old age assistance programs. It was thousands of earnest people who recognized the unhappy plight of our older citizens in our highly industrialized economy and considered pension action an obligation of society. I will continue to be among those working for the liberalization of the pension program until every citizen is entitled to a pension on arriving at the statutory age as a matter of right based on the contribution he has made. I made this statement when I first ran for governor and I have kept it in my thoughts and in my actions ever since.I1

Morris: Did the issue break out again in later campaigns?

Scoggins: I think as far as Warren is concerned it hit its all time high in 1950 when James Roosevelt decided to try to unseat Warren. Roosevelt and George McLain teamed up to put pressure on Warren. Here was part of Warren's comeback:

IfMr. Roosevelt, in his quest for political power, has allied himself with one George McLain, an unsavory character who has lived off the recipients of old age assistance without doing an honest day's work for years. Together they are deceiv- ing the old people by telling them what they will do for them and what I will not do for them. It is cruel beyond description to terrorize people in these circumstances. In their joi*bid for political power Mr. Roosevelt and Mr. McLain care nothing for the peace of mind of these elderly people or the stability of our state. Their purpose is to discredit me in the eyes of elderly citizens and to further the money-making schemes of George McLain which can only flourish through the generating of fear and f'rustration among the old people of our state."

I think you will agree that language such as that, and there was quite a lot of it, had an influence in legislative halls as well as among voters.

Morris: Yes, I think that establishes Warren's viewpoint in regard to pensions; now what about civil defense? Can you clarify the disagreements between Warren and Olson in regard to civil defense programs ?

Scoggins: Warren's position was much the same as he expressed in regard to socialwelfare. He protested a partisan approach to both Scoggins: problems and in both instances it attracted him support. Olson, in a campaign year, was preparing to name his supporters to the newly created civil defense jobs. Warren contended the entire state was involved and that broad representation was needed. The legislature and most city and county government officials gave him support. It was his recognition of the need to have city and county governments fully participating in the program that led to his naming of Richard Graves to the position of leadership in civil defense activities. Graves was long active in the affairs of the League of California Cities. Graves later sought the Democratic nomination for governor.

National Republican Platforms

Morris: Nowlet's talkaboutWarrenasaRepublican. So farwehave talked about his nonpartisan campaigns.

Scoggins: Well, Earl Warren was always Republican enough to carefully study his party's platform, national as well as state. More than once I've heard him refer a noisy Republican critic of a position he had taken to the language to be found in the Republican party platform. It has to be remembered he helped write a few platforms in his time and keynoted a Republican national convention.

Morris: The platform is an interesting document, but there are people who think it is very difficult for a candidate to speak to it or later live by it because it's not meant to be a practical political document. Isn't Warren unusual in having tried to live by a platform?

Scoggins: The wording in platforms is always a. compromise and in this platforms are realistic. They are an approach to what political leaders believe is wanted by the people and what can be made to increase in popular appeal and withstand opposition attack. When a conservative fails to read some of the liberal words in his own party's platform he just isn't realistically keeping pace with his party. There is always change in the making. I've helped write a few platforms myself and I know that word and issue selection becomes a challenge.

Morris: But most politicians don't seem to feel bound by all those practical compromises.

Scoggins: No, there is no fixed set of rules that applies to all politicians. To them politics is a very serious business. There is an old saying that you can't be a statesman unless you get Scoggins: elected so that many stretch a point insofar as the platform is concerned but it still serves as a guideline. I'll admit, however, that it is often used as a point of departure by some of the hope- fuls striving for publicity. Morris: Could we talk a little bit about some of the specific undertakings during the Earl Warren Administration?

Warren and the People

Scoggins: Yes, but before commenting on specific issues I would like to wrap up in his own words some of the governor's thinking regarding those years of activity. I've quoted some of the statements he made in 1943. Now I'd like to quote from statements he made in 1953, when his service as governor was ending. You may find the comparison interesting. In September of 1953, he issued a statement in which he saSd, and I quote, "I will not be a candidate for the governor next year, and the people of California should be the first to know the fact, in order to have ample time for the selection of my successor. %is decision is based on my firm and long-standing belief that periodic change in an administration is essential to the continued health of our representative government. It sharpens the interest of people in their electoral processes, it kindles new ambitions and releases new energies, and opens the doors of opportunity for others to serve. It broadens the base upon which our institutions stand. " Those words, along with some naturally prideful expressions of personal satisfaction in servicesrendered, were Earl Warren's fare- well to elective office in California. But let me also read another statement of his delivered later in that same year of 1953. It was our practice during his years as governor to utilize what we called a "Report to the ~eople,"released to the press, radio and TV, and by mail to interested and concerned parties whose letters of inquiry might be on the governor's desk. Each month the governor would engage in a set question and answer program over a radio network. The subject matter would deal with the governor 's position on current matters confronting either the legislature or the governor 's administration. He was the first California governor to make such widespread use of radio. It came free and was most welcome, just as were the TV question and answer programs which you might say he later pioneered. In those days, neither radio nor TV had introduced the confrontation and retort format which later came along. He had a much easier time getting his message across than some of the current politicians do.

Well anyway, the governor was due in San Francisco on the evening of October 2, 1953, for what would amount to his last Scoggins: report of this nature. Timewise, it was after he had publicly announced, and I quote: ti he President has designated me as Chief Justice of the United States, and I have wired him my humble acceptance." Suggested copy had been prepared for him to follow during his radio-television appearance, and we started on our way to San Francisco by automobile. The point of this little story is that we hadn't traveled many miles before he pulled out pencil and paper and began seriously recording his thoughts, paragraph by paragraph. Needless to say, I had no copies of his talk for the news media when we arrived at the broadcast studio. 1'11 read now some of the language which I managed to hand to the press later that night.

He started with, "My fellow Ca.lifornians. For many years, I've made a report to you each month over this network concern- ing the affairs of your state government. Tonight as I leave the service of the state to assume national office, I conclude these reports by endeavoring to say goodbye to my associa.tes who served both you and me so well throughout the years, and to you who made it possible by your suff'rage for us to serve you." The governor then launched into an expression of his tremendous appreciation of voter understanding of his efforts and purposes. He then proceeded to summarize the results of his years of leadership as follows:

%ext January, it will be eleven years since I became governor. It has been a period of growth and enormous problems. We've been obliged to provide the governmental services for more than four million people who came to us during that period. It meant schools, highways, colleges, hospitals, correctional institutions, and water development. All of these facilities cost money, but we must have them and it is a truism, that we pay for them whether we have them or not. We pay for highways we don't have by congestion, accidents and deaths. We pay for schools we don't have in retarded young lives, and we pay for hospitals we don't have in human misery. We pay for water we don't develop in blighted crops and restricted industry. The construction of such facilities not only costs money, but they provoke opposition From people who refuse to admit the necessity of keeping pace with growth. There have been times when it appeared that we would fail in our efforts to supply these facilities for those who need them. But each time we would take the issue to the people, merely by getting the facts to them. Each time the people understood and created the public sentiment essential to get the job done. As I leave the Governorship tonight, I look back on those fights and those accomplishments with satisfaction. I can report Scoggins: to you in the aggregate these accomplishments represent a governmental plant worthy of this great state. I suggest you visit them. You will be proud of your part in building them. It

In this illuminative spur-of-the-moment report, I think several things are readily apparent. One of them is that he believed in talking to the people about their own state government problems. mere were two other points which I think worthy of emphasis. One was a firm insistence that it would be necessary to keep pace with future growth and expansion. The other was the importance of considering the human elements involved in growth. He asked, and I quote, i id you ever stop to consider what a peaceful migration this has been? Four million people have come to us without any confusion or discord whatso- ever. They are our neighbors. They are our townsmen, our fellow Californians. Where on earth have so many people been integrated into a commonwealth in so short a time? It's a tribute to the industry and good will of both our new and our old residents. II

Morris: That's a very remarkable speech,, particularly since, as you said, it was written off the cuff riding down f'rom Sacramento.

Scoggins: It was written not in too good a light--just sitting in the back of the car writing.

Morris: 'Ihat's a remarkable talent. Did he often write a speech like that? With that ease?

Scoggins: He had a practice of having a piece of paper and a pencil handy. When he got an idea. he put it down, put it in his pocket. It popped up later in most instances.

Morris: He savedhisgoodideas! [~aughter]

Scoggins: That's right!

Morris: From that speech, it seems that the problem of growth and respon- siveness to the citizens of California was part of the governor's thinking throughout his period of service in California. Postwar Pressures

Scoggins: That's very true. You'll find recognition of the growth problem in his initial utterances as governor and I've just read his final utterance on the subject. He left no doubt but what he believed party power must be made to enhance the dignity and well- being of individual citizens and he was deadly serious in his pursuit of those objectives. In fact he thought so much about it that he developed a rather surprising measure of population expectations.

Several times he boosted the population predictions sent to him by his own Department of Finance. His private measuring stick, for your information, was a poll taken of where the men and women serving in the military in California wanted to live when the war was over. California. at the time was filled with training centers and staging area facilities and hundreds of thousands of out-of-staters were having their first taste of the year-round life and climate of the state. Of special significance to the governor was what thousands of these people had to say about bringing their families to California as soon as they could. The governor became convinced that this exposure to the state, along with the industrial job development that was under way, would win many new and permanent residents for the state. His conviction began to be reflected not only in his predictions but in his warnings to cities, counties and the legislature and just about anyone else who would listen. He used to wind up most such remarks by warning that there would be thousands of young and vigorous men and women coming and that:'ve have to be ready for them if we're going to use them to build a better state. 11

Morris: When you say his own private measuring stick, was this an actual opinion survey that was done?

Scoggins: It was made in connection with an over-all activity which he inaugurated to find out what this state could do industrially by way of employment, and thus relieve unemployment conditions when the wa.r was over.

Morris: Who did this survey for him?

Scoggins: This was part of the work of the Reconstruction and Re-em~lo~ment Commission headed for a time by Alexander Heron. Staff members went out and talked to servicemen on duty in California.

Morris: That's a nugget we ha.dn9t picked up before. Wa.s this done periodica,lly? Scoggins: I don't recall how many times, but it was done enough so that if convinced us in the governor's office that it would be pretty hard to exaggerate the percentage of people who were going to stay,and that the population trend in California would be going up for many years to come. I remember we had one survey report in which a serviceman from the midwest said, "1'm never going to walk through snow again to milk a cow. 11

Morris: What about Alexander Heron's background and contribution to state government?

Scoggins: Heron was an associate of C. C. Young in Berkeley before Young became governor. Young, who had been lieutenant governor, brought him to Sacramento to work on the project of developing the first formal budget for the state. Irving Martin, the Stockton publisher, was named to the then-existing three-man board of control to help give public relations direction to the project. When government was finally departmentalized, Heron became director of finance.

By nature Heron was an organizer, not a politician. He encountered personality difficulties and left state service to enter corporate organization activity. When, years later, a man with his organization ability and experience was needed to guide the planning of postwar reconstruction and employment programs Heron became first choice for the job. The fact that he was at the time a colonel in the army provided no obstacle in the path of the argument that the state needed a fully experienced man to develop a postwar program in which the military itself would be greatly concerned. Again Heron did a great job of getting things started and again he ran into philosophical difficulties with the legislature and again retired from government service and went back to corporate activities.

It should be realized tha.t in government when any man a.ttempts to introduce a lot of advanced thinking and planning he ha.s a fight on his hands. With Warren's help Heron did a lot of important work but little of it wa.s accomplished without resistance in legislakive committees and often on the floor of the legislature. Actually Heron laid the groundwork for some very essential research activities which 1a.ter proved extremely valuable to employers, labor unions and everyone else concerned with full employment and the improvement of services.

Morris: One more question on Warren's concern for the people: a number of people commenting on Warren say that this was a matter of political motivation rather than human concern for citizens, that he did this as a vote-getting technique. Scoggins: I don't know how I could comment further on his purpose. His whole record in life is one of being a man who liked people. He earned his own way. He is known as a family man. He was proud of his community services and his many associations throughout the state and the nation. I would say he was interested in people far more than most.

Morris: The fact that it was politically an effective device is inci- dental?

Scoggins: That sounds like an assumption that he was following a political gimmick or something. I think there is far too much sincerity in the man to be labeled as having a friendship as a gimmick. He was a friendly man and is a friendly man. It should not be forgotten that under Warren California became the first large state to inaugurate programs of off-the-job and disability insurance for working people. In fact his list of such credits is unmatched and very little of it was won without fights which tested his concern for people.

Morris: Okay. That was, you know, what we wanted--your evaluation.

As a man who devoted years to trying to acquaint voters with Governor Warren's thinking regarding major problems, I wonder if you would take a few minutes and try to summarize or illustrate his philosophical approach to problems of government?

Scoggins: That's a large order but I think I can quickly recite a few points of significance. As you know he gained a national reputation for trying to improve public health programs. His basic contention in this regard was that we should never stop thinking about humanitarian programs. He contended the longer human be- ings are on this earth the better life should become. He would argue it can never become better if people are indifferent to the future. In every field of public endeavor he would emphasize we cannot permit our institutions to become unduly crowded or run down at the heel. The thought was consistently applied to hospitals, education, prisons, resource development, recreation and all the rest.

Morris: Did he have a, philosophical answer in regard to medical care?

Scoggins: While governor he was often charged with being an advocate of "socia.lized medicine. tt In answer he would flatly declare : ItI do not believe in socialized medicine. I do not believe in socia.lizing anything because I do not believe in socialism. " He would then often add: either do I believe in calling every proposal to bring good medical care within the economic reach of families of modest incomes socialized medicine." He would Scoggins: go on and assert the rich can pay for the cost of good medical care and that in many states the really poor could get good care. His argument was in behalf of the family that is self- sustaining on a modest income and does not want to accept charity.

His line of thinking naturally brought him criticism in conservative circles and here again he had a ready answer. He would point out that President Herbert Hoover recognized the problems of the high cost of medical care for people of modest means by naming a special commission headed by former Secretary of Interior and president of Stanford University, Dr. Ray Lyman Wilbur and that as far back as 1932 warnings were being made public that something would have to be done about the problem.

With this groundwork established Warren would often go on and recite the wording of Republican national platforms on the subject . The 1944 platform, for example, went into considerable detail in calling for studies and action on a wide range of social and health subjects. Warren's conclusion was that it seemed to him a.11 this recognition of the problem was a sufficient mandate to states that had Republican administrations to try to do something. To the medical profession criticism he would answer in this manner: "it is not sufficient to say that America has developed the finest medica.1 care in the world--even though this is true. We still must find a way to make it accessible to all of our people.It He would declare: I believe it is the responsibility of the states to undertake to help doctors, hospitals and the public they serve in the solution of what up to the present time has been an insoluble problem. I have never held out my proposals as the only solution. I have contended only that it is my proposal until someone offers a. better one."

One more point in regard to conservative Republican criticism of this position--in a press conference in New York in which he was being pressed to give answer to charges that he was too liberal to be a Republican, Warren finally recalled that even Senator Taft had advocated a good many things at one time or another that he (warren) was being condemned for supporting on the grounds that they were too New Dealish. He went on to point out to the newsmen that everything they had been mention- ing had been advocated in the Republican platforms of 1940, 1944 and 1948 and would likely be mentioned in the 1952 platform and so on. His challenge was that "the only thing we have to do is convince people that whoever is going to carry that platform forward honestly believes in those things and will do those things if elected president /

Morris: It seems evident that he voiced the same position no matter where he was. Scoggins: I think what I have been saying can serve as a general delinea- tion of the Warren philosophy that found expression in so many social welfare undertakings. It also explains why he found such satisfactions in his victories over opponents who tried to block his sick benefits, disability and other protective programs for workers and his persistent efforts to have state, county and city governments keep pace with population growth.

Morris: You have made it rather clear he was persistent in purpose.

Scoggins: He was. During the 1950 campaign against Roosevelt he declared: ItI am proud of California's progress in the field of human welfare during my tenure as governor. It has been our practice to a.ssist the needy in the state--first on the basis of humanitarian considerations, second on the basis of actual need and third on the basis of a.bility to pay. I take pride that California. has administered its public welfare programs in line with the most progressive thought and methods with the object of helping people help themselves. 'I

In 1952, in a speech in San Francisco, Warren summarized his activities in this manner: "we have tried to conserve and develop every human and natural resource in our state. We have tried to serve our children, the aging, the unfortunate, our farmers, our working people, our business men and women. We have advanced the cause of public health, of water conservation in all its aspects, the preservation of forests, the protection of our soil. It has been a very complex and sometimes baffling job, but we have proposed affirmative programs in each of these fields.

As to the criticism of his programs Warren declared: here is a wide area of honest disagreement, but none for hatred or vilification where there is honesty on both sides. 11

Presidential Campaigns

Morris: During all those years of service as governor Warren also made an increasingly strong appearance on the national scene, first as a leader among governors and then at national Republican conventions. Did the same kind of intra-party opposition that was visible in California Republican circles follow him into the national field?

Scoggins: Politics being what it is I think it can be said he encountered certain opposition f'rom those who did not like him for "Cali- fornia reasons" and those who didn't like him for political reasons, generated by those who themselves had partisan Scoggins: political ambitions. Anyway, back in 1944 he provided some answers to that question by having attracted enough national attention to himself to be considered "Mr. Republican of the west" just as Tom Dewey, governor of New York, was considered "Mr. Republican of the East." In that year he was pushed forward as a prospective candidate for the Republican nomination for vice president. He was the Tom Dewey faction's choice, but it was something Warren didn't really want. I well recall it required some agility and fast footwork to have his ref'usal accepted, let alone understood.

I can remember preparing a press release at the convention in Chicago in which a "thank you,but no" type of letter was sent to the Oregon delegation which had publicly asked permission to place his name in nomination for vice president. There were those in his delegation who kept insisting he accept. Some of them actually got so stirred up they demanded that I withdraw the press release. Happily J. R. Knowland, publisher of the Oakland Tribune, and several others helped calm things down before the matter became too public. The release was distributed and as Warren used to say, 'pou can't unring a bell."

Incidentally, before Warren faced and overrode his delegation on the Oregon matter he had already given Bill Henry, -Los Angeles Times columnist and na.tiona.1 radio commentator, a firm statement reiterating his decision not to be a candidate. My press release and Bill ~enry'stape did the trick. The Oregon delegation kept quiet.

That Oregon letter was subjected to the closest scrutiny and later given almost as many interpretations as there were syndicated political writers. Probably the most accurate interpretation was the simplest--the war was still on and Warren thought his job as governor of California was more important at the moment than using his energy to campaign for the right to preside over the United States Senate. This I know. His decision was made after listening to some pretty strong arg~ments~including the accusation that he was being disloyal to his party.

In Philadelphia in 1948 the pressures got much heavier and Warren finally agreed to a Dewey-Warren ticket which was, in a way, about the same thing as had been proposed in 1944 except for the Democratic opponent. As you reca.11, it developed into a ticket tha.t didn't fare too well. Incidentally Truman, who won, a.nd Warren, who was defeated, demonstrated a lot of respect for one another in the years that followed. Sometimes even this upset some of Warren 's California opponents . Morris: How was that? Scoggins: I remember one time riding with the governor from Sacramento to Davis to allow the governor to board a train and say, 'hello, and welcome to California," to Truman, who was passing through the state in his role as President of the United States. You'd have been amazed at the telephone calls and the mail we received criticizing the governor for that action. He, of course, considered that he had extended only the normal courtesy which a state governor owes the president of the United States, and the criticism didn't bother him a bit.

Morris: Would this be in 1948, during that campaign, or was this incidentally, between elections?

Scoggins: You mean his meeting with Truman? No, not '48, but I don't recall the exact time. They met many times in their official positions.

Morris: One other aspect of this: Going into a national convention, did the California Republicans *om the various factions join forces in the hope to have a California nominee? In other words, was the California delegation unanimous?

Scoggins: In 1944, I don't think there was the slightest question but what the delegation unanimously wanted him to advance politically. In fact they held several meetings and demanded he become a candidate for the vice-presidential nomination. As I have said earlier, Warren had considerable difficulty stopping the matter from getting to the convention floor. He had about the same type of loyalty being expressed for him by the delegation that went to Philadelphia in 1948, but there were exceptions readily apparent in the 1952 delegation. That was the year he made a pitch for the presidential nomination and Nixon made his move to head off Warren and win the vice-presidential nomination as a reward. Nixon boarded the Warren- pledged convention train between Sacramento and Chicago and made a personal solicita.tion for support. When the train arrived in Chicago,there was Chotiner and a big display of Nixon banners.

Morris: What about his possibility of being nominated as the Republican party presidential candidate? It is often speculated that if such and such had been done a little differently Warren would have won the nomination. Did he really want the presidency all along?

Scoggins: Well, he made an open bid for the nomination and campaigned in several states for delegates, so I guess that part of your question is answered. I can remember his campaigning in Milwaukee and other Wisconsin communities in the dead of winter. He developed some influential support in spite of the snow and he did the same in other states. As to the other part of your question, I can only say he didntt want the vice-presidency in 1944. He accepted the nomination in 1948 after doing considerable more than shadow- boxing in regard to the presidency and he was in there pitching for the top job in 1952. Morris: What about his position as California's favorite son?

Scoggins: In California for many years Republican unity was maintained by having the highest ranking Republican head the California delegation to the national convention. Technically, the delegation was pledged to the "favorite son" until released. Having been the favorite son and the spokesman for the delegation on a number of occasions, Warren had more than a speaking acquaintance with national candidates and their ambitions. He had many conversa- tions during those years with the leading aspirants and was conver- sant over the years with what was being done for Willkie, Dewey, Taft, Eisenhower, Bicker, Stassen and all the rest. In connection with his established position, he followed a practice of releasing the delegates from their commitments to him as soon as possible after organization of the delegation. Some of the realists in politics have criticized him for this because it destroyed forced organizational unity and as in the case of Nixon, permitted opponents to bore from within.

Morris: You were on the scene during many of these events. You mentioned traveling into Wisconsin in midwinter. Did you travel with Warren during the Dewey-Warren campaign?

Scoggins: Yes, that was in 1948. Both the Dewey and the Warren campaign leadership organized campa.ign trains. I was on the Warren train and, if memory serves me right, we went into 32 states.

Morris: Did Warren handle the western states?

Scoggins: No, it wasn't that simple. He went places where it was thought his presence would not only help unite the party, but also attract some Democratic support. After touring the eastern states such as New York and Pennsylvania he even went into Georgia and Missouri, but naturally the western states were carefully covered. He got into Colorado, Nebraska, Minnesota, Montana, Idaho, Washington and Oregon and all the rest. In the meantime Dewey was covering the eastern states and touching base at all the big cities in the country. He made a trip through the west just as Warren made a trip through the east. As for California, the Warren train traveled it from north to south and the Dewey train came in from Arizona and traveled it from south to north.

Morris: WouB you describe a campaign train for the record? People in the future are not going to remember or will have never been able to see a campaign train.

Scoggins: I would say that the Warren train and the Dewey train of 1948 were just about the last of the whistle-stop type of campaign trains. Trains are still used for short trips where depots are convenient Scoggins: to crowd centers but, by and large, the airport has been a replace- ment. You can fly into a community, have your strpporters meet the plane, shake hands, make a. speech, and repeat the performance in half a dozen communities the same day.

Use of the train went back into Lincoln's time and then some. Railroad yards were in the center of towns and easy to reach and the rear platform on the last car of the train was a point of vantage. The usual practi-ce was to speak from the rear car at all small towns and at noon and in the evening leave the car for a hotel or auditorium for a key speech. With the introduction of radio and television, the facilities of these off-train appearances took on more and more importance. Candidates started taking along electronics experts and a special podium for installation in auditoriums or banquet halls. We used them in 1948.

Morris: mere was the matter of planning ahead as well as actual details of train operation.

Scoggins: To run a campaign train properly required many, many people with special abilities.* It required advance men and the exercise of judgment as to where a stop should be made, who in the community should be recognized, where the speech would be made, where people on the train would eat and sleep, and what types of publicity could be developed to increase the crowds. It required a special group on the train to service the candidate in every way, special cars for the press and other media, along with a speech and news release production center. It required telegraph service for the press and it required a contingentto receive and welcome VIP groups who needed to ride with the candidate, usually from the train stop just ahead of their home town. This permitted them to meet the candidate before he made his bow in their community.

Incidentally, this riding a campaign train gets to be an obsession with some people. To keep the train from getting over- loaded with such VIP groups, we used a ticket system to gain entrance to the train. The tickets were passed out by the advance agents in keeping with local decisions. Several times we rechecked the admission tickets of some of those aboard and found extra people had come aboard with printed reproductions of our tickets. All I can add is that most of them had to stand up to reach their home town and be seen getting off the train.

* The advance man's manual prepared by Dudley W. Frost for this campaign is in the Earl Warren Archive of Bancroft Library. Mr. Scoggins believes it is the first such handbook ever prepared. Scoggins: In the Dewey-Warren campaign we also maintained a. personal connection between the two trains. I remember talking state senator T. H. DeLap of Richmond into representing the Warren train on the Dewey train. Such contact was necessary just as it was necessary to have someone on the Warren train gather up newspapers at stations during the night and have a news summary ready for the candidate and his close advisors to read when they awoke. We had a New York public relations expert who volunteered for this job and he did an excellent job, with some loss of sleep. Much of the work on such trains is volunteer and I might add those who are paid have to perform in a dedicated manner for time schedules are tough.

Morris: Tnis was all for the vice-presidential candida.te?

Scoggins: Yes, we used automobiles and buses largely for the governor campaigns. We would have a bus for the news media and a facility for the governor and his working staff and the VIP groups. How- ever, in California no governor can avoid the use of an airplane, because he virtually must be in both ends of the state at the same time. It's a common occurrence to have a breakfast meeting in one city, luncheon in another and dinner in another and then fly on to sleep in a fourth place in order to be ready for a breakfast session.

Morris: Was Warren using a plane in the forties?

Scoggins: Yes, but particularly in the fifties. He was a hard-working campaigner. He never seemed to tire in those days and could sleep all night in the back of his car while his driver was taking him from one place to another where airports were lacking. I think it can be said he wore out several traveling secretaries.

Morris: Remarkable good health. Thatts a great asset, I should think.

Scoggins: It was a great asset and he had others. You've heard me mention that it used to be laughingly said: 'you might beat Warren, but you can't beat his family." His girls and boys and their pictures constituted a lot of help in a campaign.

Morris: Did the children and Mrs. Warren take an active role?

Scoggins: No, only in photographs. Mrs. Warren, while he was running in those governor races, and later on for that matter, stayed pretty largely out of the push and haul of a campaign. Her theory of campaigning was to take care of him and let him go get the votes. She stayed strictly away from the usual campaign speculation and gossip. Actually, I can recall that Warren himself rather resented the exploitation of his family in any way, even in the use of family pictures which we introduced into the first campaign with Scoggins: real success. I guess it was Leo Carrillo, the famous movie star and close friend of the family, who probably did the most to reconcile the situation. He knew publicity when he saw it and he could talk to the family as individuals or as a unit.

Morris: It was an innovation in campaigning to have the wife and family in the picture, wasn't it?

Scoggins: It certainly was an innovation for a candidate to have that many attractive youngsters who could be photographed for campaign purposes. Morris: In terms of current politics?

Scoggins: It's a common practice today. You never see a candidate filing for office today without his family around him. That was not the case in those days. They didn't have TV cameras watching every move as they do now.

Morris: Was this one of your campaign contributions back then?

Scoggins: I don't know that it was my contribution but I certainly agreed with it and the results proved extremely helpful in rqy work during those years of directing publicity.

Morris: Here's a quick question I'd like you to answer. What about Leo Carrillo and the Warren campaign?

Scoggins: Leo was extremely helpful in the Warren campaigns. Aside from acting and taking care of his varied business affairs, he found politics a real challenge and real fun, not as a candidate, of course, but as a vote attractor. He'd do anything from lead a parade to stand on a corner and attract a crowd for the candidate. I remember going through the Mother Lode country with Leo and Warren during Warren's first campaign for governor. In the small towns Warren would walk the streets shaking hands. Leo, in full western garb, would walk ahead a block or so and try to attract and hold a group of people until Warren could catch up and make a short speech. It worked like a charm, Warren never lost the warm support of the Mother Lode people.

And Leo did more for the Warrens, He gave help and identification to the entire family at political affairs and became sort of a cheer leader at conventions. He set sort of a campaign pattern for the actor George Murphy who carried his political exposure thus gained on to the winning of the United States Senatorship. Murphy was of course a Republican. It might surprise you, but Leo Carrillo was a Democrat and came into the Warren campaigns a.s a recognized Democrat, In his campaign utterances Scoggins: Leo was always entertaining. One of his gags was to mention his Mexican ancestry and report that the community in which he was speaking was safe for Warren because he had just visited all his Carrillo cousins, the real pioneers of the area, and they had told him so. 111 OFFICE OF W GOVERNOR

Morris: Could we talk about your role as press secretary for Governor Warren? We're interested also in how Warren set up his office as governor and how it functioned. Did you go to Sacramento straight from the campaign of 'k?

Scoggins: When the campaign was over, I finished up my work for the newspaper and went to work trying to help Warren prepare for his inauguration. He had cleared the way with my publisher, Mr. Martin, so I was soon available. Martin's instructions were: "Go help him."

Morris: That must have been a hectic two months?

Scoggins: It was a busy period, devoted largely to preparing necessary things that had to be said and done such as the inaugural message, the budget message, the development of a schedule and of course getting an office organized. We started from scratch personnel-wise . Morris: There were no hold-overs f'rom the Olson administration?

Scoggins: Only one.

Morris: Would that have been Alice Anderson?

Scoggins: Yes, she was a very able woman and the only one around us who knew where all the permanent files were. Some of the routine business of a governor's office goes on even at the peak of a transition period. It made me appreciative of the fact that William Sweigert and Helen MacGregor, the two other secretaries, were both attorneys and both out of Warren's attorney general off ice.

Morris: You mentioned as an aside before we started that the inaugural address was drafted in f'ront of a fireplace. Where? Scoggins: At my home in Stockton. !he outline was developed there and consultations occurred wherever Warren might be. The final drafts were typed by a girl in the attorney general's office who was preparing to join the governor's staff as secretary to William Sweigert.

mere is one little story about staffing up the governor's office that might interest you. We suddenly realized that we lacked a receptionist so I scouted around and decided to ask the help of a Stockton woman then living in Sacramento. I called her home on New Year's Eve and asked her if she could show up the next day and help us out, at least temporarily. She did and she proved so good she went all the way through the Warren administration, all the way through the Governor Knight administration and most of the way through the Governor Brown administration. When she retired a few years ago, I went to her retirement party and,do you know, people laughed when I related that she had been hired as a temporary employee.

Morris: She stayed for 20 years. Oh, that's marvelous. What was the office organizational chart like back in those days?

Scoggins: We opened the office with William Sweigert, Helen MacGregor, Laurence Carr and myself as secretaries, Sweigert came from the attorney general's office in San Francisco, Helen, an attorney, had been with Warren for many years. Carr was a Redding attorney and, of course, I was a Stockton newspaperman. That was the geography of the office at the start, but Carr was called into military service a short time later and was replaced by Burdette Daniels, a Los Angeles attorney.

Sweigert handled office management, extraditions and the legal work of the office. Helen MacGregor handled the governor's personal office details. Daniels handled contacts with the legislature and I was kept busy with writing, and with press and public relations problems in general. It wasn't long, however, before the ever- increasing demands upon the office forced additional appointments. Sweigert was given a young attorney to help with extradition and appointment matters. I was given an able newsman off the Associated Press service as an assistant, and a traveling secretary for the governor was employed. The typist pool under Mrs. Anderson was also increased to try to keep pace with the heavy volume of mail. We felt at the time this growth in office staff was merely keeping pace with need. Every governor since has had to make similar enlargements to meet demands. The White House in Washington has had to do the same thing. People seem to want more from government administrators now than they used to, and of course, there are more people to serve. Media Relations

Morris: It must have been kind of an interesting situation for you to be on the other side of the desk, having been a political reporter for many years? Scoggins: I don't know as I had any particular problem in adjustment insofar as the press was concerned. A story's a story and our job was to get it out. That's what the press wanted and we tried to oblige, although I will admit that until we got more help it was often a day and night job along with all the other things we had to do.

Morris: What about press conferences, which are now quite a political tool? Having or not having a press conference is often commented on.

Scoggins: We introduced regular press conferences, starting with one a week. Warren wasn't too keen about formal press conferences at the start, but he certainly learned to appreciate them later on. The reason he wasn't too aware of their necessity was that as district attorney he had had only a couple of papers to deal with, As attorney general he usually developed the type of news that could quickly be gotten rid of with wire services or a few local papers. As governor he learned that in Sacramento you have a highly competitive news, radio and TV situation that thrives on questions and some of them are not always friendly. This has to be recognized by any governor and be dealt with in realistic fashion, Morris: When you say "highly competitive" what do you mean?

Scoggins: The whole thing is competitive. Every newsman is out in search of an exclusive. Radio commentators and newsmen compete, newspaper reporters compete, TV reporters compete, special writers compete, and the wire services compete not only with themselves but with all the other services,

Morris: In other words, they're each trying for an exclusive angle, therefore you have a press conference to treat everybody equally?

Scoggins: That's right, One of the biggest headaches any press secretary has is caused by trying to avoid obviously handing out something to favorites.

Morris: How do you get into that kind of a spot, which would be very awlward? Scoggins: It's quite easy unless you are on your guard. A reporter comes in and asks a question, for example, about something that is Scoggins: really hot news. You might be just preparing a release on the subject. He wants to have it as an exclusive, naturally, and he asks for it.

Morris: Beforeyougetittypedandhandedout?

Scoggins: mat's right and you can't blame him for trying, can you? Then there were also those who wanted to interview the governor every day and those who cooked up special questions they wanted the governor to answer personally and exclusively. It's really a job trying to be fair and get along with everyone. I had a couple of general rules which worked out pretty well while I was there. If a reporter on his own had developed something that was obviously exclusive, he got to see the governor as soon as possible. Also, if the reporter had a special question from his editor or his publisher he got in immediately for a personal answer from the governor. In short, we recognized personal enterprise and we always tried to help the reporter who was under special orders from his boss, but the subject matter had to be genuine.

Morris: Were you putting out press releases daily? Scoggins: Oh, there's never a day but what a story can be developed. During a legislative session there is a constant flow of paperwork in regard to bills the governor signed or vetoed.

Morris: Was there a legislative press office too?

Scoggins: We had a legislative secretary in the governor's office who cleared all his material through the office press department.

Morris: I was thinking of the legislature as a separate part of the government.

Scoggins: Legislators have many ways of reaching the public. Committees issue releases, committee chairmen grant interviews, the authors of bills grant interviews as well as make speeches on the floor. They have a lot of publicity machinery available and the governor has absolutely nothing to do with it, nor, in my opinion should he want anything to do with it.

Morris: Would this sometimes put you in a spot where you were issuing releases or the governor was making a statement on one side of an issue while legislators were putting out opposing publicity? Scoggins: It requires considerable skill for a governor to meet such situations and maintain his cool during long and hectic legislative sessions. The flow of opposing statements and releases is constant, particularly since the television camera is so available to those both with and sometimes without something to say. Earl Warren met this situation (he didn't have the television problem) by carefully Scoggins: avoiding argument insofar as individual legislators or authors were concerned. He carefully addressed his remarks to the general public and stuck to his program and the issue under consideration. He called it "going to the people" and it worked. If the immediate available forum didn't afford an opportunity to present the merits of the case with which he was concerned, he stood his ground and waited for an opening to occur. He didn't engage in name-calling, quick answers or threats of purge. He had what might be called a great sense of timing, Morris: Lettsget backtonewspapersfor amoment. Wouldyousaythat over the years the role of the press has changed in regard to political affairs?

Scoggins: Oh, I'd say quite definitely compared with press activity during the Warren years in Sacramento. For one thing, there are fewer papers of competing influence to deal with. Most cities have only one paper and few more than two and many of the papers are part of chains of papers. In those days, for example, San Francisco had three aggressive papers, Los Angeles had three papers, Oakland two and an independent paper was to be found in practically every other city. All wanted news service of some kind from the state capitol. TV, as I have said, was in its infancy and had small but growing influence. Radio demands were on the increase but not on the charge and countercharge debate type of conf'rontation that is today's format. Three wire services, each with several men, covered the capital for their newspaper membership. Today there are but two such services. I think there has been a notable increase in special feature writers during the years and also many legislators now employ publicity men to prepare weekly newsletters for the papers in their district.

In summary, I would say the mlume of words flowing out of Sacramento is much greater today than it was then and,of course, television has been the greatest new contributor. I also believe that more writers in those days presented news as news rather than commentary. In other words, there was less editorializing in the original presentation of news. This of course doesn't mean the big papers didn't play stories in keeping with their policy just as they do today but it was usually done with by-line stories.

Morris: Your comment then is that the media presents more opinion today than it did then?

Scoggins: I think that is true. Writers back in those days came a little closer to following actual news reporting and quote identification. They were less inclined to give space and time to interpretation and comment. We kept a steady flow of things for them to report going their way and they carried the news to the editors who did their own editorializing. Morris: Do you credit television and radio with causing most of the change ?

Scoggins: That 's probably true. With TV conf'rontations and radio confront a- tions you get a back and forth exchange that is seldom possible in newspapers in a single edition, yet I would say newspapers are still ahead in depth coverage. We just didn't have that much TV and radio to deal with in those days, but we did have some tremendous press conferences. In fact those were days when the press resented having microphones around during interviews.

Morris: When you say microphones do you mean room microphones as well?

Scoggins: No, they conceded that everyone in the room should hear but they wanted no live broadcasts. They insisted on calling it a press conference, not a radio-news press conference. lheywanted, and I underline, a press conference.

Morris: That's interesting.

Scoggins: Well, wasn't it a normal position for them to take at the time? If you are going to have a press conference and every radio station in the state is broadcasting it before you as a newsman can even get ugstairs to your typewriter--(laughter). That's been the growth and the change of the media. They've had their battles between themselves, some of which faded a bit when newspapers began to operate TV and radio stations as well as their presses. The political publicity man or public relations man has, of course, had to adjust to the situation.

I can also recall that in eastern cities, where we were sometimes campaigning, we'd have press conference time disputes. Dif- ferent parts of the country would want certain things done at a certain time so they would get a news break. TV and radio have added to the importance of this consideration. Then there was the problem of picture-taking. The still cameramen wanted instant special treatment. The movie newsreel people demanded special treatment and back of them were the color picture people who always had to take a lot of extra time because color wasn't what it is today as far as technology is concerned. You never could quite get them all satisfied because their time requirements were all different. That again was one of the problems of a press or public relations secretary in those days and it still is today. Morris: To coordinate all these things? How?

I1 Scoggins: Hold somebody's hand and tell somebody else "wait a minute.

Morris: You mentioned that you had set up some early television political presentations, not on an encounter or conffontation basis,and that you made use of television when it first became available. Scoggins: I've already mentioned the radio "~eportto the People" which we put on each month and that we later had a !N "~eportto the ~eople." We were assigned some well-known TV or radio personality to ask the questions. I remember Chet Huntley was the ques- tioner on several shows. That was long before he left the West Coast for New York. In national political activity we utilized in New York and other cities the time offerings of the networks whenever the opportunity afforded. lhey weren't very large networks but their time offerings were of increasing value.

Morris: When you say "time offerings" was this part of a news program?

Scoggins: It was a form of public information service both individual stations and networks were developing. &ey still render the service but of course on a more extensive and elaborate basis.

Morris: Without charge?

Scoggins: Yes, but that means usually your adversary gets equal time.

Morris: What did you have to work with in the early days of television?

Scoggins: It was a great day for charts, for still visuals and things of that type, plus prepared questions and answers. My regular endeavor was to go out and find two or three friendly newsmen who were knowledgeable people insofar as Warren was concerned and have them come in and ask the governor questions. Our programs were at least animated to that extent. I remember we did this once in Grand Central Station in Mew York while one of its upper lofts was being used for the first CBS TV political presentations in the area.

Morris: lhose were the early TV studios?

Scoggins: Yes, that was back in the late forties. Warren was really somewhat of a pioneer in such endeavors and I think it served him well. It took a lot of work, even in those days, to get yourself known.

Governorst Conferences

Morris: Was Warren in the East much in that eriod just before he was nominated for vice president in 1948.B

Scoggins: He went East rather frequently in those days but for several reasons. He received many invitations to make speeches both to Republican groups and other groups. He regularly attended the annual conferences of state governors and after 1944 he sat in on numerous Republican conferences. Morris: What was a governors' conference like in those days?

Scoggins: Mot much different than today. It was a tremendous sounding board for governors with national ambitions. It helped increase the stature of Dewey, Wicker, and half a dozen other governors who later became United States Senators. It was a good place for any governor to get a comprehensive understanding of the factional and sectional problems and issues of the day. Back in those days the South had spokesmen such as Talmadge. Dewey was in the foref'ront among the East Coast governors and Warren was recognized as the West Coast leader.

Morris: Were there separate conferences for Republican governors and Democratic governors?

Scoggins: Governors met at other times for regional conferences and party conferences but the big governors' conference was a combination of everything. It attracted the greatest number of political writers of any event in between conventions. It lent itself as a sounding board for comment on most of the issues of the day. But, by and large, this activity took place outside the conference hall for the governors had a rule that their official actions had to be unanimous. lhis had nothing to do, of course, with what went on in hotel lobbies, at parties or before radio and TV mikes. Really, it was a wonderful place to evaluate national thought as expressed through sectional leaders.

Morris: I've looked at a couple of the published proceedings of those conferences and Warren seems to have been quite active--

Scoggins: He usually made at least one speech at those affairs and was very active in the executive sessions which were not open to the press. nese developed, during the war years, into very important sessions. I remember one, back at Mackinac Island on Lake Michigan, where George Marshall and some of the ranking military leaders of the day went into a private huddle with the governors and told them of our status in the war in Europe and what was about to happen.

Morris: In other words, I get the feeling that the practical aspects of governing and the political aspects run side by side.

Scoggins: I believe the conferences were a fine training ground for Earl Warren and the other governors because it exposed them to just about every type of issue and philosophy that was then existing in the country, and gave them a chance to measure the abilities of men who were making the decisions in the various states. Needless to say these conferences had some influence on what Warren did about war-induced problems in his state. Incidentally, Scoggins: in evaluating this Warren exposure to state problems on a national scale it shouldn't be overlooked that as a district attorney and an attorney general he had been a leader in their national organizations and learned much of national legal problems. It was rather interesting to travel with Warren during those years. When you walked through a hotel lobby you would often find him recognized and greeted by someone who had been active with him in those organizations. The same thing could be said of old-time graduates of the University of California. They seemed to pop up everywhere.

Just as an example of what such wide contacts might mean, let's take Warren's friend James Duff, one-time attorney general and later governor of Pennsylvania. You might imagine that Duff could be helpful during the 1948 Republican convention in Philadelphia. He was.

Another benefit of such contacts came in the year Governor Bricker of Ohio started a drive for the presidential nomination. In the course of 1944 events, he came to California and to Sacramento to talk to Warren. I received a telephone call *om Warren one Sunday morning and was asked to go to the office and keep Bricker entertained until Warren could arrive. While waiting, I walked Bricker through the beautiful capitol park, chat- ting about politics as we walked. Later in comparing notes with Warren we both concluded Bricker would settle for the vice- presidential nomination. The hunch came in mighty handy later on at the convention in Chicago. When Dewey and others putthe heat on Warren to accept the vice presidency nomination Warren had something to offer beside a flat "no." He could suggest that Bricker might be receptive. Bricker was, and was nominated.

Population Growth

Morris: Would you say those governorst conferences influenced some of Warren's thinking about the need for postwar planning in Cali- f orni a?

Scoggins: I don't think anyone could be exposed to such presentations of national and sectional thinking without being able to apply or adapt some of the information to local problems, especially the war-induced problems involving population and future employment. My little story of Warren's measuring the thinking of military personnel fits the picture. Hindsight shows how correct he was. Determined leadership was required to keep things pointed toward employment, recreation, education and general services for all the people. It meant fighting for more schools, more highways, more and better health services. It meant trying to keep the Scoggins: state legislature looking forward and willing to launch new programs . Morris: Not all of this was new to California was it? The state had to deal with an influx of Arkies and Okies &om the dust bowls just before this war period, didn't it?

Scoggins: Way back in my student days I think they told us the world population movement was ever westward. Historically, there has been a constant movement of people to California since the gold rush days of 1849. National and world catastrophies have only tended to increase the movement. The Okies and Arkies were absorbed with ease after a few short years but the wartime influx was another story. People came in each month at a rate that required the immediate creation of new service facilities equal to those of a fairly large community. Within a dozen years more people had moved to California than lived at the time in almost forty of the states of the union. They stayed and more kept coming. Soon the staters population marched right on past New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania and all the rest. I might add California, at the same time, acquired all the problems of other big states and began to encounter some new ones of its own origin.

Morris: The task then has been to keep services and jobs in balance with demand.

Scoggins: Throughout the years and up to the war, there was a constant effort by the state's leadership to increase industrialization and bring about a better balance in the economy which was largely agricultural. Wartime needs did the trick. There was a constant call for workers to man wartime industrial plants, shipbuilding plants, airplane factories and other war-related industries. It was when all this development was considered as the potential work force for the future that serious thoughts about the need for planning arose.

Morris: That's a question that never occurred to me just that way before. Were there already aircraft and shipbuilding industries in Cali- fornia before the war?

Scoggins: We had such plants in the state, but they were as nothing compared with what the war brought. Gigantic plants and yards came into existence almost overnight and train loads of people from everywhere came to man them. What California had before the war was a required nucleus. It had the climate to use in aircraft research, manufacture and training. It had harbors and it had lots of open space for military use, such as numerous small fields for training military fliers. Actually every part of the state got involved. Morris: When the United States went into the war on a combatant status, California seems to have felt a much stronger sense of emergency and immediacy than many other geographical parts of the country. This must have had an effect on the political scene, too?

Scoggins: There was a feeling in the state in those days that you wouldn't have found to the same degree in Iowa or Missouri or the mountain states. The state is relatively close to the Hawaiian Islands insofar as economics and friendships are concerned. In addition, it was aware of incidents such as shells tossed at Santa Barbara and Mrebombs being directed at forest areas in Oregon and Washington. There was enough being reported in the daily press to keep people stirred up to a degree unequaled in the Midwest. Likewise, California was a tremendous staging area. The military was obvious. It was through California that men and material moved into the Pacific. The ports all along the West Coast were full of ships carrying the necessities of all-out conflict to the Pacific. So, you had a people being aroused by what they could see as well as read.

Morris: Civil defense became a political issue didn't it?

Scoggins: Haw it was to be run, how the structure was to function became a political issue, yes.

First Term Matters

Morris: Here is something else I wish you would comment on: what was the reason for Governor Warren appointing you and William Sweigert and Helen MacGregor to the State Highway Commission soon after he was sworn in as governor?

Scoggins: The simple answer is he wanted control of the commission.

Morris: There must have been a reason.

Scoggins: There was. In a period of transitiw, a governor must be alert to what old boards may do in issuing new contracts, making new commitments and such. Both the highway commission and the prison board were acting up at the time and Warren wasn't taking any chances.

Morris: Was the appointment of the director of public works involved?

Scoggins: It was to the extent that Warren's choice for the post wasn't the type of man who could work well with the old commission. Scoggins: There wouldnet have been much sense in appointing as famous an engineer as Charles Purcell to the directorship and not allowing him to exercise his known abilities. Some of the commissioners had been tied in closely with the Olson campaign and others had ideas about highways and taxes that differed from those advanced by Warren and Purcell.

Morris: They served at the governor's pleasure didn't they?

Scoggins: They served until replaced and Warren didnet have time to reach out and select replacements and then educate the replacements as to the problems.*

Morris: But is it usual for a governor to name members of his immediate staff to such commissions?

Scoggins: It may appear unusual, but any governor has to have people around him he can use in such instances. We served long enough for Purcell to get his programs underway and new commissioners to be selected, It was a period when the department had many dealings with the governor's office, for the freeway program wa.s beginning to jell and a gasoline tax increase was in the making.

Morris: Did the prison situation have as many frustrations as the highway problem?

Scoggins: They were both extremely complicated. While the gasoline tax fight led to Warren being called a communist, a. socialist and tax gouger, and a lot of other names inspired by political opponents, the prison fight was not without its own brand of name- calling, Prison fights, you may have noticed, are usually newspaper headline fights. For some reason the press, the sob sisters and the do-gooders cut loose the moment something is reported wrong with a prison. Ihe situation has a habit of reoccurring every few years, Warren inherited a running battle on the subject. He decided he couldn't do much about it until some laws had been changed. He called for an entire reorganization of the prison system and the introduction of trained penolo- gists into key spots. It was a long legislative fight and one during which the press was constantly filled with allegations of prison abuses and inefficiencies and charges of prison politics.

Morris: Senator Charles Deuelrs name is one that comes up frequently in regard to prison legislation.

Scoggins: Yes, Senator Deuel was the real life saver, He was chairman of

* See California --Blue Book for 1946 and 1950 for members of state boards and commissions. Scoggins: the senate committee and he had the tough job of trying to keep a highly emotionalized atmosphere sufficiently clear for legislators to see what was being undertaken. He was the man who eventuallyworked out the compromises that were required. Some of the arguments lasted all night. Burdette Daniels of our office maintained almost around the clock contact with him. When it was all over they named the Deuel Institution at Tracy after him.

Morris: I thought he was probably the man. What was his background?

Scoggins: He was publisher of a newspaper at Chico as well as being a veteran legislator and a Democrat.

Morris: What about Burdette Daniels? He helped the Warren admininistra- tion in many ways didn't he?

Scoggins: Burdette Daniels, an able attorney, and long-time friend of Earl Warren, performed many important tasks. His first association with Earl Warren was in the attorney general's office under Warren. Later he practiced law in Los Angeles with his brothers. Then he came into the governor's office as legislative secretary. Beyond this he was an able and practical campaigner. He worked closely with me in several campaigns and after he left the governor's office to resume private law practice, he did a lot of advance travel work for Warren in Wisconsin, Oregon, and a lot of other places. He was appointed to a judgeship in Los Angeles and served with distinction until his death.

Morris: Any other legislative battles you want to mention?

Scoggins: We had another one that lasted for months and that had to do with Warren's determination to bring about improvement in mental hospitals. It took money and, even though tax revenues were increasing, the legislators were reluctant to build needed hospital facilities. It was a situation that needed dramatizing. I can remember Warren going to the big mental hospital at Stock- ton and announcing that a long wing on the main building was being closed for safety and humane reasons. He sparked a discussion that rearranged priorities and led to legislative action. And, here again, I give the press credit for creating the atmosphere which encouraged legislakive action.

Morris: There is another question I want to ask about the governor' s office. Haw did you arrange it when you took off the press coordinating hat and put on the campaign coordinating hat?

Scoggins: Normally, I directed my work toward supplying the governor with his needs and that's a chore any state employee in my position Scoggins: would have to do. Beyond that, I saw to it that research men were hired by the campaign leaders and that the timing of campaign activities coincided with Warren' s thinking. When I went into national campaigns, I went off the state payroll and was paid by either the Republican National Committee or f'rom the candidate's campaign f'und. I did work for both Dewey and Eisenhower as well as Warren under these arrangements.

Morris: It all sounds very complex but it must have worked smoothly. You must have had some good people in the right places?

Scoggins: I had some pretty good researchers who could come up with a choice in needed answers in a hurry. I usually tried to keep one that was a liberal and one that was a conservative so we had a cross-section to consider. In national campaigns one gets a lot of volunteer help in this regard and it is important to the candidate to have several viewpoints to consider. I remember flying into Chicago one time to give Eisenhower some of our California thoughts in regard to water and natural resource development. I had dinner with him and then we started to work. I soon discovered he had done this very same thing with others. He was reaching for a cross-section of opinion. A couple of hours later he was broadcasting a special program for western states voters with parts of all our efforts in his speech. Incidentally, in those days Eisenhower was learning to read handwritten promptings on the wall and not refer to notes on his desk. We've come a long way in the development of aids to a speaker since those days.

Warren's Image

Morris: In the midst of all this political activity hm would you describe Warren's image?

Scoggins: I think it is natural to say that when Warren was elected attorney general with the Republican, Democrat and Progressive party nominations, many of his f'riends looked upon him as a natural for governor. Many Republican leaders in both ends of the state agreed that he was really, because of his victories, the titular head of their party and should be so recognized. The course of legislative events as well as political events during the clos- ing months of the Olson administration also increased his stature. Conservative interests in the state had become so f'rightened by Olson and his militant supporters that Warren looked like a savior to many of them. Some of those same interests turned against him, however, when, as governor, he forced through a Scoggins: gasoline tax to provide f'unds for freeway construction. They tried to beat him for the Republican nomination at the next election and failing in that they followed him around the United States opposing his efforts to line up support for the presidential nomination. Warren's most significant support in those days was to be found in rank and file Republican and conservative Democrat circles. lheir support continued on through the years of his service to the state. h-esident a?lman viewed the situation once and announced 'warren's a Democrat and don't know it." It was a tough situation for any Warren opponent to deal with, insofar as California was concerned. There was some meaning in the saying: "~obodyis for Warren except the people." In later years Warren himself had an answer to your image question that met with qy satisfaction insofar as right wing, middle of the road, or left wing inclinations are concerned. He would say on occasion:

"1f by right of center you mean turning the clock back on social progress or social justice, in other words, being a reactionary, I would not so classify wself . "1f by left of center you mean being enamored of foreign ideologies, centralization of power or managed economy, I would not qualify.

"On the other hand," he would say, "if by center is meant the middle of the road where a person can make some progress each day by facing the problems of the day, with faith that every American problem can be solved for the benefit of the people--all of them without distinction-- according to the principles and procedures of America, I would like to be so classified." Anyone who worked closely with Warren in those days heard him say at least once: 11I believe by nature I'm a conservative, but I do like progress. Perhaps I could classify myself in the words of Lincoln who once said: 'I'm a slow walker, but I never walk backwards.'" To this he would usually add: "I like to feel that I've made some progress each day, even though I walk slowly." I think this can always be said of Warren: he made a sharp distinction between acceptance of social progress and socialism. I think the years that have followed with all the bitter criticism and right wing shouts of impeachment have proved not only the soundness of his position but that the position itself has been understood. IV ELESIENTS OF POISTICAL CAMPAIGNING IN CALIFORNIA

Morris: Let's go back to Warren's campaigns for the governorship. How much of this position was understood?

Scoggins: Earl Warren in his gubernatorial campaigns really didn't have much trouble with extremes. In fact he invited the extremist opposition to identify itself. At the opening of each campaign, he sought the opportunity to label them for what they were and then went on his way. Having long been recognized as a vigorous district attorney and state attorney general and active in the American Legion, he had no problems with communist or so-called "far out, left wing" labels. They just didn't fit his background as the public analyzed his record.

To add to all this, Warren kept his position in regard to extremists clear at the opening of each campaign in Southern California by publicly denouncing any support that might be said to be coming to him from both the so-called left or right wing noisy extremists. I still remember how the Los Angeles Times and Los Angeles Examiner used to play up his statement: "I don't want them in my campaign." The demagogues always answered with words of condemnation and that was what we wanted. Inci- dentally, that's a rather comfortable position from which to start campaigning for the middle-of-the-road votes which it was known would dominate the election.

Morris: Do you remember any of the names this strategy was used on?

Scoggins: About the only one I can think of at the moment is Gerald L. K. Smith. Most of them, like Smith, had what might be called a semi- religious following and were ceaseless in their activities.

Date of Interview: January 14, 1971

Morris: mere are a number of people whose names turn up in Republican politics over many years who we'd like to ask you about in relation to Warren's career. Murray Chotiner is one I have in mind. Scoggins: Chotiner is a professional organizer who had long been active in Republican politics, chiefly in Southern California and with Nixon in particular. He was actually identified with but one Warren campaign and after that was sometimes identified with Southern CaJLfornia Republic an groups that either lent assistance to Warren or opposed Warren. He did leg work for Nixon whenever Warren and Nixon crossed swords. Insofar as Warren was concerned, things cooled quickly when Chotiner wanted a voice in patronage dispensing. From then on, I guess the best way to describe what happened is to quote the mutual position Chotiner and I both openly maintained: "If you want to get along with Chotiner (or ~co~gins),leave him alone." Anyway, he had nothing to say about Warren campaigns except when some Southern California faction wanted him to help or try to harm.

Morris: I want to ask who some of the other opponents were, but first can I have some names of people whom Warren consulted?

Scoggins: I can recall a few, but, of course at this late date, I know 1'11 overlook a good many. Each had his special place and each made his contribution to one of the campaigns. Among newspapermen for example, there was J. R. Knowland, publisher of the Oakland Tribune and his son, William Knowland, who later became a United States Senator by Warren appointment. There was, as I have mentioned, Irving Martin, publisher of the Stockton Record and Thomas Storke,publisher of the Santa Barbara Press; James Guthrie, publisher of the San Bernardino Sun; Paul Leake, publisher of the Woodland Democrat; Kyle Palmer and Norman Chandler of the -Los Edmruld Coblentz of the Hearst organization and actually many others including Eleanor McClatchey and Walter Jones of the ~c~latche~newspapers which joined him inhis second campaign and have never faltered since.

Morris: In other words Warren had some ardent newspaper support. How about campaign leaders within the party?

Scoggins: Well, there were Republican committeemen such as Ed Shattuck, Ron Button, McIntyre Faries, William Reichel, Gordon Richmond, and again I must say many others. And there were men such as Murray Draper, Tom Coakley, Vic Hansen, Ford Chatters, Bernard Brennan, Ray Haight and Ward Mailliard who were out front as campaign officials. !Ihese were all men who wanted to see Earl Warren as governor whether he pushed nonpartisanism or not. Most of them later wanted to see him president or at least vice president . In looking back and trying to recall people who were active leaders in Warren campaigns, it must be remembered that even in his first campaign for governor he had experienced leadership in every county. mese were the people who had worked so success- fully to win him an overwhelming victory for attorney general and Scoggins: they were both Republican and Democrat in registration. It was a common occurrence in those days to have a man or woman come into a county campaign headquarters, display a "thank you" letter fromwarren for work done in the attorney general campaign, and then ask for something to do in the governor campaign. As I have mentioned before, among these were attorneys, law enforcement people, civic leaders, University of California graduates, fraternal leaders, and many others who had somewhere along the line had contact with Warren.

Morris: Now, how about some of those who opposed Warren and why?

Scoggins: Here again memory must be tested, but I can mention a few. For example, there was John A. Smith, president of the Independent Petroleum Association. Along with William B. Keck, president of Superior Oiland others, he led a two-pronged fight for years against Warren. At one time, they stirred up the old guard Republicans to the point where they induced Tom Werdel, a state legislator, to seek to take the Republican nomination away from Warren. They lost, but they kept on and followed Warren into national politics, fighting him all the way.

Morris: Why were Smith, and his associates, so determined to stop Warren?

Scoggins: The first real public explosion came when Warren backed a gasoline tax increase. Warren was determined the state must keep pace with highway needs. The oil companies gave leadership to the opposition and a bitter legislative fight developed, but Warren won. Smith and his associates renounced Warren for all time to come and charged him with "gouging the tqayers." To this they later added the charge that he had abandoned Republi- canism and had aided and abetted communism.

Morris: Who were some of the others in this anti-Warren movement?

Scoggins: Smith and his associates provided most of the means for the attack but each phase had its leader. Loyd Wright, Los Angeles attorney and national bar association leader, was the chief spokesman in the abandonment of Republicanism issue. Jack Neyland, San Francisco attorney, University of California regent and Hemst attorney, touched off the "soft on communism issue." Smith and Keck gave leadership to all they could convince that Warren was trying to "ram socialist policies dmCaliforniat s throat." In this they had some help from a share of the Cali- fornia medical profession. The hard-core right was openly opposed to every social welfare measure Warren advocated, but each confrontation found Warren with more labor and middle-of- the-road support. Actually, they helped Warren at the polls.

Morris: Did Warren have some sort of an inner circle of advisors that he leaned on? Scoggins: I don't think it can be said he had an "inner circlett gang. ~e'sthe type of person who wants to make his own analysis and make it from all the facts he himself can gather. At the start of his political career, there is no question but what the Knmlands had great influence and the support of the Oakland Tribune and the influence of the Knmlands in Republican affairs gave him the needed lift. After that, using the telephone and a list of "helpers" of the type I gave you a few moments ago, he was on his way. It was a case of "keeping in touchtt and he had the contacts required in every part of the state to get needed evaluations and facts. In San Francisco, for example, Jesse Steinhart, long a prominent Republican attorney, was always ready to help. Steinhart, in fact, was one of the first to urge Warren to run for governor. Many of the early conferences were held in his office. There were others in every county and in every level of activity who were ready to volunteer their efforts. lhis reminds me that Earl Warren was possessed of an exbraordinary memory for names and faces. I've seen him amaze old acquaintances on many occasions.

Morris: You mentioned earlier that Warren filed for both Republican and Democratic nominations when he first ran for governor and then in 1946, of course, he won the nomination of both major political parties. Hm did the cross-filing procedure work? Scoggins: Well, for many years, California had a direct primary law which permitted candidates to file for more than one party nomination with one reservation, a legal reservation, that if the candidate did not win the nomination of his own party, he could not use the nomination of any other party he might win. Morris: Did that ever happen? Could a candidate ever actually win the wrong nomination?

Scoggins: Yes, it happened a number of times in legislative races. I recall one gubernatorial contest. Mayor James Rolph of San Francisco sought both the Republican and Democratic nominations for governor. He lost the Republican nomination. Since he was a Republican, he was eliminated from the final contest. He tried again a few years later and won his party's nomination, and went on to victory at the general election. Incidentally, this cross-filing system came into existence back around 1915, while Hiram Johnson was governor. In advocating cross-filing, he argued that it prevents candidates from Scoggins: being handpicked by a few party leaders and leaves the power of nomination and election strictly in the hands of the voters.

During his later years in public service, Johnson put the system to special use in a personal election campaign. He was seeking re-election to the United States Senate, and a powerful group of Republicans, some f'rom out of state, wanted him retired. They raised such a fuss, that Johnson let it be known that if things didn't quiet down he would switch parties and file for the Progressive party nomination, and thus have his name on the general election ballot in spite of his Republican opponents. Numbers of his supporters actually switched to the Progressive party to insure his primary election success, but it was not necessary. lhings calmed down and Johnson won the Republican nomination and re-election. It should be remembered that Hiram Johnson built quite a name for himself while governor, as being an opponent of party wheels and corporate domination of government. !The initiative and the referendum were also part of his program as was the public utilities commission. Some of those Johnson supporters showed up in the Warren campaign.

Morris: But there was some pretty deep-rooted opposition to cross- filing,wasntt there?

Scoggins: That's right, it never let up. Party bosses fought it at the start and were in at its finish. Incidentally, it was a system never really understood, let alone appreciated, by Eastern machine politicians or Eastern newspapermen for that matter. It was rather difficult, to say the least, for an Eastern writer, accustomed to dealing with party organizations and back-room party bosses, to explain to his readers that out in California anyone could submit his name as a partisan nomination aspirant, regardless of what party bosses wanted. Nothing could be done about it, either. It was an accepted procedure at the time and commonly used by state legislators and congressmen.

The state of mind regarding cross-filing was rather well illustrated when James Roosevelt, a product of Eastern partisan concepts, moved to California and decided to run for governor in 1950. He started out by attacking the cross-filing system and Warren nonpartisanship. A few weeks later he announced he would seek both the Democrat and Republican nominations. This sudden Roosevelt change of direction caused Earl Warren to remark, "It reminds me of the politician who said that there are times when we must rise above principle. 11

Morris: The cross-filing system was only eliminated fairly recently. What finally brought it to an end? Scoggins: I guess you could say the bosses finally won. Cross-filing had its real heyday in the days when a Republican nomination was tantamount to election in many districts. As the years rolled by and the state grew in population, and in national political influence and power, particularly in party conventions, the pressure for a strong party organization in the state increased steadily. In those same years, the state became heavily Demo- cratic in registration.

The argument which Jimmy Roosevelt brou@t West with him, in regard to a strong party organization in the state working with a strong national party organization, began to take hold, even though it had done him no good in his race. In fact, when he raised the issue, he did himself harm. In those days the average California voter rather resented Eastern politicians coming to the state to try to tell him how to vote. Voters were likely to call such visiting politicians carpet-baggers and often suggested publicly that such visitors go back home across the Sierras and Rockies and stay there.

Morris: Was this charge made against Jimmy Roosevelt?

Scoggins: It was made against people who came out to talk for him. I know we used to rather hope some of his most controversial supporters on the national scene would come this way, so we would have a new issue and another sounding board.

Nonpartisanship and Campaign Structure

Morris: How did Earl Warren, who was after all a Republican, meet the criticism of being nonpartisan after he won both the Republican and Democratic nominations?

Scoggins: Well, there were naturally several such questions he had to face. As I mentioned, he usually, wherever he went, had to answer the question about cross-filing, particularly when an out-of-stater was asking the questions. It was hard for some to understand that cross-filing was something Californians had been doing for years, and that Warren was merely following the California system that was open to him.

When asked what his relation with the Democratic party was, he would assert: "I'm in no sense a member of the Democratic party. I've never professed to be. I've never had an organization within the Democratic party to support any candidacy of mine .'I 'Po this he would often add: "1've merely submitted my name to the people as is the custom under our statutes, and the Scoggins: Democrats have been generous enough to give me their nomination. II His answer to Republicans was usually couched in language such as: "1f re-elected, I will continue to run the office inde- pendently, surrounding myself with the best people available to me, regardless of politics. I am, as you know, a Republican, but I shall make no appeal to blind partisanship, or follow any other divisive tactics."

His constant emphasis was that what we needed to preserve in the state was unity, instead of factionalism, and good will instead of prejudice. It fitted in with what was apparently the popular belief of the day. I repeat, probably the simplest way to describe his political position at the time was to call him an independent Republican backed by middle -of -the-roader s. As far as voters are concerned, I think Warren's successes at the polls made it rather clear that the middle-of-the-roaders in both major parties liked his emphasis upon what the parties had in common rather than their differences, and liked his calling for a united attack on social, finance, welfare, plant development, and all the rest of the problems of the day. This policy gained special vote significance when Warren would say to other Republicans as he opened a campaign, ')We're Republicans. Let's let the people be the judge of the record we have made."

This was the thinking behind the 1946 re-election campaign slogan, "~e-electa Good Governor. " This leads me to remark that it is quite incorrect to think that at any time vast numbers of either Republicans or Democrats were blindly opposed to Earl Warren while he was governor. The election results refute this of course, but more than that, there were leaders in every level of the economy who sincerely believed that in view of the needed war effort and postwar effort, and the threats, and the near successes, of such movements as "End Poverty in ~alifornia,""Ham and Eggs," and the rest of the depression-produced emotionalism, the time had come for some real nonpartisan corrective effort. In fact, one of the state's most famous financidl leaders, A. P. Giannini, founder of the Bank of America, is credited with turning around the thinking of his associates by remarking, "YOU can't tell me these poverty plans would get so many votes if some changes aren't in order." As time went on, it became clear that Earl Warren identified best with those who thought in terms of progress and innovation. I think this, in a nutshell, explains why Warren had so little trouble being re-elected in 1946.

But on this question of Republicanism, let me mention a special point in regard to Warren's regularity. It shouldn't be overlooked that he appointed a former Republican state chairman Scoggins: and national committeeman, William F. Knowland, to the United States Senate, and later named Thomas Kuchel, who had also been the state Republican chairman, to the state controllership and then to the United States Senate.

The chief criticism against Warren when it came to appointments was that he refused to be bound by the wishes of either the county or the state central committees, and occasionally a Democrat got recognized. He often provoked considerable bitter- ness in this regard when appointing judges. But he held to this independent course regardless: Having been a district attorney and an attorney general, he had his own ideas in regard to judgeship qualifications. I have a little story to tell in regard to the depth of consideration involved in some of the appointment pressures a governor's office has to withstand.

I was visited one day by an elective office holder who asked that I urge the governor to appoint one of his constituents to a statewide board. I listened to his entire story, and then asked, "ht don't you know that this man has traveled around the state criticizing the governor?" His answer was quite complete: "yes," he said, "but he has always been for me and this appointment would help me at home ." Morris: This must have made it rather difficult to put together a campaign organization, if there were these differences of how you go about doing politica1 things.

Scoggins: I think you must start by realizing that it had to be a Warren- for-Governor campaign from start to finish. Ihe Democratic party machinery wouldn't be about to help a Republican win the Demo- cratic nomination, and the Republican party machinery had to engage itself in trying to build and elect a ticket of Republi- cans. Warren was his own campaign manager when it came to setting the tone and philosophy of his campaigns.

Morris: How was a campaign organized?

Scoggins: Tfie Warren campaign organization activities were left pretty largely to Warren committee direction, with one committee in Northern California, and one in Southern California, so that local leadership would be recognized and better utilized. These committees were headed by men who could keep the door open for all who wanted to join in the movement. As a result, Democrats as well as Republicans were given places of prominence in the campaign. Democrats-for-Warren committees were formed, as well as numerous committees of veterans, of professional groups, of women, of business and farm, and labor groups and so on.

Politicians being what they are, it wasn't always easy to get the door open and adequately spread campaign responsibility Scoggins: around, but in the last analysis, those who objected were usually circumvented or just plain ignored, and enthusiastic rank-and-file organizers given their head.

The structure of the statewide organization included counties and cities with their own chairmen, their own women's groups and other units, all with a concern over developing and publicizing cross-section support. Quite frequently, the county or the city leadership would actually be co-chairmen, one a Democrat and one a Republican. An effort was always made, wherever possible, to see that the leadership was identified with community affairs and comity leadership, rather than just known for partisan activity.

When each campaign was over, Warren publicly thanked and disbanded his entire campaign organization. He never tried to build a year-around political machine that could dominate state politics. He quickly and firmly turned aside all such suggestions. As a result he had plenty of advisers in every county, but no official or campaign organization spokesman. When campaign time came around again, he started af'resh by opening the door for all who liked what he had done and was trying to do and then concentrated on the campaign task at hand--the acquaintance of additional voters with campaign facts as he saw them.

Morris: That sounds as if you trusted pretty much to the media to lay the groundwork for each campaign.

Scoggins: In a sense that's true, just as much then as today. We struggled each day throughout the year to tell the public, through the media, what the governor was doing and thinking and then at campaign time we served up the same information in summary form.

I wouldn't want you to overlook the fact, however, that each month the governor made a radio and part of the time a television "~eportto the ~euple"and that cupies of these reports went to key leaders in each county. These reports, in the hands of former campaign leaders, became campaign guides long before a campaign was formally launched. There were people in every community who knew how to discuss an issue from the governor 's viewpoint. Morris: But you say they were not organized as units of a permanent campaign structure?

Scoggins: No, they were rated as friends, or interested and concerned individuals. Campaign organization started with the creation of Northern California and Southern California committees and the opening of necessary campaign headquarters, first statewide and then by areas, counties and cities. Campaign literature and Scoggins: materials were prepared by professionals working under the direction of the Northern California and Southern California leadership subject to review by the governor and his personal staff. It was often said Warren ran his own campaigns and in a sense that is very true, particularly in relation to when, where and how policy statements were made.

Political Importance of Newspapers

Morris: What about the influence of newspapers on candidates and elections in general, back in the '20's and '30's and up into the Warren years?

Scoggins: I would say that then, just as now, a candidate for a statewide office would do well to try to get some time before the Cali- fornia Newspaper ~ublishers'Association convention. And he should make the rounds of the big newspapers and get acquainted with the policy makers. Nothing has changed in this respect, but there has been one change. CdLifornia, in those days, had many strong-minded editors and publishers who were independent in their approach to politics. It can be said that when they ganged up, they made it tough for any candidate they disapproved of, even though that candidate might be backed by the ~esst ~apers,the San Francisco Chronicle, the Los ~n~ilesTimes and the Oakland Tribune.

Naturally, most political observers watched to see what the hi.g city papers were planning, but there were also those who wisely tried to evaluate the intentions and influence of such papers as the Sacramento Bee, Stockton Record, Fresno Republican (under Chester Rowell), Bakersfield Californian and similar independent papers in San Bernardino, Pasadena, Long Beach, Santa Barbara, San Jose, Santa Rosa and elsewhere.

Support from any strong combination of these papers could often tilt the scale in an all-out fight. It had proven so in Hiram Johnsonrs figkt to oust the ra.ilroads from control of the state legislature. Any strong combination of such papers often made the special difference when the candidate happened to be from Northern California, for in those days Southern California didn't have the dominant vote total it has since come to possess. There was often an advantage in being f'rom Northern California, just as there is an advantage in being from Southern California today. Incidentally, in those days most newspapers had a more or less sustained interest in the governor's office. Governor Friend Richardson had been a newspaperman as had Governor Frank Merrian and they kept up their contacts, although neither could claim unwavering press support of the type Warren attracted during most Scoggins: of his years of service in the "corner office ." Morris: Did the good press continue through his second and third terms?

Scoggins: I think you can say that, insofar as his governorship campaigns were concerned, Warren always had exceptional press support. It was only when national aspects were introduced that any real deflection occurred and that was toward the end of his Cali- fornia service. As a matter of fact, when Jimmy Roosevelt was running against Warren in 1950 he became so frustrated in his efforts to win editorial support that he charged the California press with being controlled. Warren's comeback was: here 's one newspaper in California whose opposition I rejoice in and that the communist People's World. I deserve that opposition because I have earned it. I hope the relationship will continue."

When elected in 1942, Warren had to quickly become, as I have said, accustomed to dealing with more competitive newsmen than ever before, including wire services and feature service representatives and staff writers from the major papers. It's quite a step for any public figure to move from having to deal only with a handful of newsmen on an occasional basis and having to deal with dozens of seasoned newsmen from many cities and services all demanding daily contact.

By the time he went to Washington D.C. as chief justice, he had many friends in the Washington press corps as well as Sacramento, but there, as in Sacramento, he had to learn the rules of the game. He learned that when there could be an instant replay on a national scale of any chance word or cliche he might drop, extra precautions had to be taken. He had to break some of his informal habits and as a consequence his press contacts and press conferences became few and far between. In other words being chief justice was far different from being governor insofar as his personal contacts, wishes and habits were concerned. He was operating from a different kind of a podium.

Morris: Were there any particular lines of thinking in which California newspapers differed?

Scoggins: In a state such as California, there was bound to be. I have already mentioned the North versus South feeling. There was also the big paper versus little paper feeling. I've known the little papers in an area to gang up and defeat the big papers. It could be done much easier than today, because other media is now also having an influence.

Morris: What about newspaper chains? That is, groups of newspapers published under the same ownership? Scoggins: Chain newspaper ownership has increased in recent years along with radio and television influence. In those days the Hearst chain was the chief chain in the state with papers in both San Francisco and Los Angeles and for a time in Oakland. For years the Hearsts had both a morning and an evening paper in both Los Angeles and San Francisco and they usually fought editorially with their competition. Today there is only one Hearst paper left in each of these cities and in each case their competition is one paper--a paper larger in circulation. What happened to newspapers in Sacramento, the state capitol, pretty well tells the story of what has happened in general. Ihe -%cramento Bee dominates the af'ternoon field and its-ownership extends to the Fresno Bee and the Modesto Bee along with numbers of radio and TV stations. Ihe morning field is dominated by the Sacramento Union and it is owned by the same people who control the newspapers in San Diego and a number of smaller communities in Southern California. Ownership of the newspapers in San Jose, Pasadena and Long Beach is now the same. And so the story goes-- fewer owners and fewer papers and only one paper in most communities and everywhere strong competition with television and radio. Morris: Just how would you explain the following Warren enlisted among the press?

Scoggins: Probably the quickest answer I could give you is that he had a natural flair for expressing himself in terms newspapermen could understand and use. But there was more to it than that, for actual exposure to the press is required. I have already mentioned that men he ran for governor he already had a long personal acquaintance with the San Francisco Bay Area press. As district attorney of Alameda County he had handled some highly sensational and newsworthy cases. Ihen, as attorney general he had offices in San Francisco and Sacramento and here again he had handled some highly publicized cases. On the basis of his record in public service and his f'riendly nature he was fairly well received by press policy makers but it required an actual push in press circles to get the ball rolling for the governorship campaign, and that was one of the chores performed by Irving Martin, Sr., of the Stockton Record, who incidentally had performed the same service when C. C. Young was running for governor. One of his aides in this regard was Assemblyman Ford Chatters, a publisher at Lindsay and active leader in the California Newspaper Pub- lishers' Association. The argument advanced to the publishers was that Earl Warren had two unequaled things going for him. One was his known practical understanding of, and his experience with, many statewide problems, particularly legal problems. The other was the often Scoggins: expressed belief that he possessed the ability to link his broad e~erienceeffectively to a new, fresh and independent approach to problems in Sacramento.

With memories of the hassles during the Merriam and 01son administrations still very fYesh in the public mind, as well as in the minds of editors, the idea of a fresh approach took hold. Warren made good copy with his appeals for greater war effort, his guarantee to work with the legislature, his call for better planning and greater financial preparation for the postwar period and for better schools, better hospitals, new social programs and all the rest. With the help of the media, these objectives became spelled out so clearly that their voter influence carried on into all Warren campaigns.

By and large I would say he had a press that was very receptive to the story he had to tell.

Morris: What are some of the changes that have occurred in state campaign publicity methods during recent years?

Scoggins: TV exposure for the candidate and short, snappy, dramatic com- mercials are the chief innovations. As a generalization, it can be said the day of centering attention on newspapers is over. You have to use more than newspapers as a campaign outlet or you will lack needed coverage and exposure. In particular, you have to have the money and be able to develop good gimmicks for TV use. Skpocketing operating costs and TV and radio competition have taken their toll of newspapers, and editorial influence isn't what it used to be. But, let me also say I still wouldn't want to be a candidate without newspaper support, at least to the extent of open news columns. When it comes to regular ballot issues, the initiatives and referendums, there is still nothing better than those little front page boxes that recommend a "yes" or "no," especially when the recommendation is your way.

Morris: Have those little boxes been used for many years? Did you assist in furthering the technique in your own newspaper years?

Scoggins: At the Stockton Record, where I started, we always gave a yes or no recommendation on the f'ront page just before election day, in addition to editorial discussion on the editorial page. Thousands of the little boxes were cut out by subscribers and taken to the polls just as they are today. The strength of such recommendations arises from the fact that many voters haven't had the same depth of discussion over issues as they have over candidates. They are sincerely looking for suggestions and advice and really want to know what the paper thinks. Incidentally, most labor unions now follow a similar procedure and distribute hundreds of Scoggins: little cards containing labor's recommendations in regard to candidates as well as issues.

Morris: Would you say the issues then were more complex than those of today?

Scoggins: I wouldn't say more complex but I would say we seem to have more of them today. &e basic subject matter really hasn't changed a lot, only the emphasis.

Dealing with Opposition

Morris: You mentioned the communist paper, the People's World. What did the issue of communism amount to in Warren' s governorship? What kind of effect did this have in terms of voter reaction and the legislature?

Scoggins: &at's a question that can be answered in several ways. As a law enforcement officer with years of experience, Warren knew a lot about the realities of communism in the state and he made no secret of his feelings. Maybe this little story will illustrate.

A Democratic newspaper publisher once started a televised interview in Los Angeles by saying, I1Governor, you have been supported by every political party at one time or another--"

The governor interrupted with the declaration, "1n the first place, every party in California has not supported me. There is one party that has been militantly opposed to me ever since I have been in politics and that's the Communist party. I never have had any support from them."

In both his state and national-level utterances, Warren took the position that his administration would have no trouble with communism in government. He used to say, "We have no leftist wing, and the communists will be unalterably opposed to us as we are unalterably opposed to them."

He once told a large audience, "I take the position that if we never temporize with communist sympathizers, never seek their favor at election time, never coddle them for support they will never be in a position to bore from within. I have taken this position for years and I know it works."

He often characterized comrmxnism as a fierce ideology with adherents possessed of fanatical zeal. It is true, however, that during his years as governor he was sometimes called a communist Scoggins: by emotionalized opponents to some of his programs, particularly his social welfare proposals. In answer he relied on his long record of public service and kept his cool, as the mdern saying goes. The use of the word communist for name-calling purposes was rather common in those days among people who resented and feared change but it was not a thing of concern to the Warren administration.

Morris: I'm thinking of the health and medical care controversy. It was used often in that fight wasn't it?

Scoggins: Yes, but by professionals and extremists.

Morris: Would you say it was name-calling rather than people actually thinking that the proposals were related to the Communist party?

Scoggins: I can imagine some of the most highly emotionalized opponents thought some of the proposals were communist-inspired, but certainly the legislature didn't, and certainly the voters at large didn't, because they turned around and re-elected Warren and most of his legislation was enacted in one form or another and has long since been copied elsewhere. Of course, his professional opponents knew better but said otherwise and some of them managed to make a living out of such opposition for several years thereafter.

Morris: It was really more of a political device to slow down legislation and change the direction of public policy? It's still a device rather commonly used,isntt it?

Scoggins: If one lives long enough one sees many things repeat themselves. I can remember some of Southern California's politicians, I have mentioned a few earlier, who kept calling Warren a socialist and a communist because he wouldn't change course in accordance with their wishes. A number of Richard Nixon's supporters were out front in the activity. Maybe you have been reading lately how some of California's right wing Republicans are now charging that President Nixon is being influenced by communists and socialists. Times may change but political practices have a way of adapting to the times.

Morris: I want to ask you some questions about Arthur Samish, the man who built himself such a spectacular reputation as a lobbyist in Sacramento. Warren has been quoted as saying "in matters that affect his clients, Samish is more pawerf'ul than the governor." What did he mean by that?

Scoggins: The statement really originated with Samish and was highly publicized in Collier's magazine, but Warren at the moment Scoggins: would have had to agree. It requires some understanding of lobby methods to understand why. Samish came into power by learning from practical experience as a legislative employee just what can and does happen to legislative bills. His next step was to find clients who were willing to finance his lobby activities and, let me say that after he proved his effectiveness he attracted the biggest of clients when they were desperate.

I think it has to be conceded that a smart lobbyist with adequate finances can within a few years become a power around any legislative body. He spends his money helping elect candidates and helping defeat others. He spends money doing favors for legislators and their families. He spends money in all ways that will advance his cause, whether it be to win support for or defeat a bill. But Samish added a refinement to all this. He set out to gain control of committees that would be handling proposed legislation in which his clients would be interested. This narrowed the odds. If he didn't like a bill or favored a bill or wanted a bill amended so it would be more to his liking, he only had to influence a few people. All that is required is a majority of the committeemen voting or he could see to it that a quorum is lacking so no action could be taken. It must be remembered that until the committee sends the bill to the floor of the house there isn't much anyone else can do about it except try to influence members of the committee. Samish always had a working association with key committee members and, being well versed in the tricks of the trade, he didn't lose many battles in the arena in which he operated.

Morris: Samish is also quoted as saying he didn't care who was governor as long as he (~amish)could m the legislature. Did Samish lobbying affect Warren's legislative programs?

Scoggins: First, let me say, Samish didn't actually try to run the legislature. He only tried to block and direct all activities that were distasteful to his clients, and force approval of those measures which his clients desired. He really didn't tangle very often with Warren and when he did it was always with the question in mind whether he could get the legislators to override the governor's veto.

Morris: Well, for instance, Samish says he gave advice on the 1947 highway gas tax bill so that it finally passed. Do you recall what the details of this might have been?

Scoggins: I don't recall what he refers to but he has been writing books about his activities so maybe the explanation is in print. I can venture this though--a number of Samish friends around the Scoggins: legislature were in favor of the highway tax bill. It would have been only being realistic if some of them asked his help in sounding out or influencing legislators who were not com- mitted. No one in Sacramento had more listening posts or a better reporting service than Samish and his guess as to what might happen was at least an "educated guess." Incidentally, he had men constantly checking hotel lobbies, restaurants and bars to see what was going on and who was talking to who. It's safe to say he always knew where his committee votes were. Let's say if they weren't present, they were accounted for.

There is no question but what a lobbyist who specializes in as many aspects of lobbying as did Samish will soon have a tremendous influence in legislative halls but they still come and go It's possible to get too big and get caught in a wave of resentment. Politics is full of such stories. Yet, I am not one who will say that lobbyists are not needed. They are. Somebody has to make the presentations for the various groups. Somebody has to keep legislators reminded of current developments and local wishes. Somebody has to help the media make known there are two sides. How it's done spells the difference. Samish spent a lifetime ferreting out all the tricks and special influences. Most lobbyists expend their energies in trying to acquaint legislators with arguments and viewpoints. Yet, there are always lobbyists and lobbies with ambitions and they never give up trying to be "boss." The Southern Pacific Company was given a lesson at the polls by Governor Hiram Johnson many years ago and lost control. Through the years, however, there has been no let-up in the struggle to elect candidates and control committees and votes. Look, for example, at the hundreds of lobbyists registered in Sacramento today. Observe the activities of organized labor, teachers, utilities, oil companies, realtors, farmers and all the rest, including the partisan leadership. It was ever thus and can be expected to continue wherever legislative bodies meet.

Earl Warren had once worked in the legislative halls and was not unaware of the strength of lobbyists. He knew that when the chips were down Elmer Bromley spoke for the utilities; Charles Stevens for the oil interests; Vince Kennedy for the retailers; Walter Little for the railroads; Frank Agnew for insurance; Monroe Butler for the independent oil group. The list was long. And he also knew that Samish was in the lobbying business and paid to take many stands, while also representing the liquor and gambling interests. But Warren also knew that when those chips were down he could usually take his story to the press and the public and win at the very least a favorable compromise, particularly in budget fights which involved the treatment of growth problems. And, of course, he still had as his ace card the right to veto and that is a powerful card in any game. Scoggins: Incidentally, I was rather amused recently to hear Governor Ronald Reagan size up a long legislative battle which he had just come through by commenting: ItI wonder just what the ten commandments would have looked like if Moses had been forced to get them through a legislature?"

Morris: Did Warren, as governor, taken an official position in regard to lobbying?

Scoggins: He signed a number of bills designed to improve and strengthen lobby control laws. In commenting on his formal approval of four such bills he said: ItI am convinced these bills will add substantial strength and give needed improvement to our state laws regulating lobbying practices. These changes will put Cali- fornia in the forefront of those states that have enacted lobby legislation, In fact, I know of no state that has lobby laws as comprehensive as these. It has taken a long time to accomplish this result. For exactly 100 years California was without lobby legislation. The influences against it were too great even to get a start."

The bills which Warren signed set up standards and procedures for both lobbyists and legislators to follow and created penalties for violations. The bills were the result of his special message to the legislature asking for "reasonable regulations for those who spend money to affect legislation or other official action."

Morris: From your expertise as a public relations man in both public and private service, could you evaluate some of the other types of opposition to Warren? How seriously did you take them?

Scoggins: That's a rather large-sized question, but there is one bit of what might be called political philosophy that I think I should include in my answer.

There is a tendency in politics for commentators and others to deliberately or otherwise, foster conclusions and headlines that are sweeping in nature when the actual facts at hand deal with or justify only one minor phase of what the public is being asked to assume. This is one of the controversies surrounding TV interviewers in particular today.

It is logical to assume that anyone in politics makes enemies, but to assume that large blocs of new and lasting haters are developed every time a confrontation over a controversial issue takes place is not in keeping with realism. Furthermore, the public seldom really gets led astray by the extravagances of extremists. This is something every successful politician has to learn in one way or another. Thatts what I learned in regard to name-calling use of the word communism. Scoggins: Most politicians in legislative halls, for example, soon develop a sense of caution against popping off at opponents on anything but an issue on partisan level. The reason is simple. The hea.d- line gained may prove costly later on. You just don't get too rough personally with someone whose mte you are going to need on another matter tomorrow. Sometime read the Congressional Record in Washington, D.C., for the purpose of seeing how one Senator calls another names during a debate without getting obviously personal. Some of the phraseology used is downright clever and it still permits the combatants to at least nod to each other in the hall as they leave.

The same considerations apply to group reactions. When someone says labor is against a certain candidate, the trucking interests are against him, the banks are against him, oil is against him, agriculture is against him, and so on, it is well to thinktwice in a diversified state the size of California before you accept the statement as fact rather than campaign propaganda. I remember Earl Warren being booed at a statewide labor convention. It made headlines, but that was the year Earl Warren received his biggest labor vote. The noise of a few made the headline, but it had little influence on the election result. In situations such as this, Warren's comment was usually, "We'll go by the scoreboard, not the noise."

Morris: That's a rather apt expression. Was it typical of the governor?

Scoggins: It was. He could talk football and baseball with the best of them, and had great respect for the finality of the scoreboard.

There were many who opposed Warren proposals in the legislature and elsewhere but it didn't mean all or even many of them differed with him on every issue. His enemies who exposed themselves through bitter attacks usually found his office a poor sounding board for he kept right on telling his own story and not reflecting theirs. Warren wasn't one to fail to recognize when it would be a mistake to be diverted into coment on personalities rather than issues.

Anyway, I think you will find that men and women with the capacity to understand how government functions in this country can debate issue after issue without getting over-exercised and emotionalized by critical headlines inspired by extremists and TV interviewers. It is a truism that extremists often hurt themselves more vote-wise than they do their intended victims. It's only when the things said emerge as actual carrrpaign issues that the chips really go down. Naturally, a man who seeks re-election must build a public record for himself and keep it out in front, but if he's really smart that record will be a lot Scoggins: deeper than just a bunch of contrived headlines.

I think also it's always worth remembering in politics that when a voter enters his voting booth and has a choice to make, how he elrpresses that choice has special significance. Fre- quently he votes not so much for the candidate who gets his "X" but against the other candidate. In a sense, the candidate who wins is sometimes reaping his victory from the combined votes of those who think they can tolerate him and those who just can't stand his opponent.

Campaigning from Strength

Scoggins: It takes a lot of careful campaigning to attract and hold positive votes. It's much easier to direct campaign effort toward tearing down an opponent. If the Warren campaigns prove anything, I think they prove a campaign's benefits are much more lasting when a candidate spends most of his time selling himself and what he stands for, particularly if he can relate to popular hopes and needs. This doesn't mean, of course, that he shouldn't have something to say about his opponents' record and views when such declarations are timely. The question of when- is of course one of the major decisions constantly confronting any campaign grow.

Morris: When you say 'when,' you mean the decision of when to say something? How were decisions such as timing made during Warren's campaigns?

Scoggins: It usually wound up with Warren considering all suggestions and then making the decision as to both when and how. My own recommendations often reflected two lessons I learned as a newspaperman.

Back in the days when I started writing editorials I remember getting exercised and writing a strong editorial. I took it to the publisher because it involved a change in the paper's policy. He read it and said: "ltts very good, but do you think your readers are ready for it?" It taught me quite a lesson. You can come up with a great big editorial in the newspaper, but if the public's not aware of its significance and ready for it you have wasted your space and your ammunition. &e candidate has to protect his ammunition in the same way. That's why one has to analyze and not be misled by false issues or shallow issues. That's what I meant when I mentioned a candidate, such as Warren, having to use his own judgment of how, when and where, since he will be the person responsible for any answer or defense that needs to be made. Scoggins: The other lesson I learned was from Governor Frank Merriam. Regardless-of the time of day or night a question might be asked Memiam, he never stopped with a "no comment" or completely negative response. He somehow always seemed to have a new story to offer, tha.t was often better than the one for which you were probing.

Earl Warren had much the same capa.city. He knew Arll well the importance of having something to say to a news-hungry press corps. He usually could top his opponent with clarifying details or introduce something new to take the play away from his opponent. One thing was certain in those days, people working around Earl Warren had to be able to come up with facts and come up with them quickly. Morris: You mean to supply him with necessary information? Scoggins: mat is terribly important for state as well as national leadership. A candidate or an administrator must have his homework done and be ready. Somebody has to get the material ready for his study and use. That's why the staffs of presidents and governors have been increasing in size. A candidate can't spend too much time reading answers in front of a TV camera. He has to know the answers and answer quickly.

Morris: On the question of timing, how do you provide, as a team, for last minute or changing developments ? Occasionally, don t things come up from the opposition or sudden local, state or national developments that force some changes?

Scoggins: There is never anything static in a campaign. New things have to be introduced constantly or interest would decline. But, what those new things are must be carefully analyzed. There are a number of questions that have to be considered. For example, who says what is being proposed is important? Kas the public become sufficiently aware of what is being talked about to make a comment by the candidate worth while? Is the proposal bound to increase in significance even if ignored? Are you being led astray by your opponent or some self-serving group that is trying to build an issue or a headline? Cantt someone other than the candidate dispose of the matter?

Morris: Howdiddecisions 1ikethatdevelopbe~eenWarrenandyouand other people working closely with him on the campaign? Scoggins: By discussion. After you've been throu a few such sessions, you learn to automatically disregard an completely leave out - P of serious consideration many things that don't fit your campaign goals.

Morris: Ah. The things that dontt fit your own goa.1~. This would be in regard to charges which a rival candidate might make. What about Morris: larger issues that are introduced, such as federal legislative proposals or international developments?

Scoggins: Fortunately, in those days governors didn't try to run the United States. If an issue had an iniernational flavor, a governor had a perfect out by saying that's something that Washington is going to have to settle, not the governor of Cali- fornia." As for things1that developed in Washington that would affect the state of California or its counties or cities, that was something else.

CaJLfornia Water Problems

Morris: What about the water issue, which had been a major fact of political life in California for many years? It was closely tied to Washington thinking as well. Would a governor's actions in one term, for example, glve him a base on which to use water as an issue in his campaign?

Scoggins: Any action he would take would become part of his record. He couldntt escape that. All official California appearances and all submissions to federal agencies had to be cleared with the governor so, whether he liked it or not, he had to assume responsibility for building a record.

Morris: Will you try to recall what your impressions were in regard to the water issue back in the *30ts and '40's?

Scoggins: I think it was increasingly recognized all during that period that if California didn't develop its water resources it would be denying its people a successful future. It was generally understood that the state had to have more water development if it was to have expansion in agriculture, expansion of industry and the proper serving of the hordes of people pouring into the state. The need for development was pretty well sold but the question of who would do the building and how the projects would be financed was wide open for discussion. During much of the period, there was a national economic depression which was turning many eyes to Washington for help. The depression gave strength to the argument that federal help at the time would increase employment as well as help build californiats future.

Morris: Who had been building most of the projects?

Scoggins: Historically, I guess you could say, there were water projects in the state financed by just about every method available rang- ing from private and individual expenditure to federal government expenditure. The first projects got underway when miners as Scoggins: individuals and as groups diverted water for their purely local needs. Dams were built to increase the supply and service the mining communities and hydraulic activities. The next step was to store water for power development, agricultural use, for community uses and infant industries. Progress in these various areas called for larger and larger storage facilities and more and more miles of canals and pipelines and power lines. And then a new influence began to be exerted. United States Army engineers and the United States Bureau of Reclamation began to take a hand in planning and in the partial financing of certain projects on the strength of the argument that flood control and navigation were both matters of national concern.

Both bs Angeles and San Francisco contributed to the agitation by reaching out hundreds of miles for domestic water. bs Angeles first reached into Inyo county and diverted the flow of a stream, claimed by farmers, into a huge pipeline to serve its fast growing business and residential areas. San Francisco reached out across the state and into the high Sierras for water in a national park and piped it across the San Joaquin Valley, the Coast Range mountains and on to the San Francisco Bay peninsula. Then Oakland came along and built its pipeline from the Sierra foothills across the San Joaquin Valley and delta and on into the Oakland hills reservoirs.

Los Angeles in the meantime was reaching out for Colorado River water, some of which was claimed by Mexico as well as by Arizona and Utah and, for that matter, every state that even had a large Colorado River tributary. %ere are many attorneys and engineers who have spent their lives battling over the claims surrounding this water. Here again you find the federal government, cities and irrigation districts and power companies sharing in the costs and arguing for supplemental supplies or preferred positions. I am sure you know that water disputes over the years have led to numerous physical encounters as well as court encounters. Likewise federal law insistence on federal money being used only where small farms are involved (the 160-acre limitation) has produced a lifetime of debates in legislative halls.

Morris: You haven't mentioned the Central Valley Project? Scoggins: I'm coming to that. The Central Valley Project turned the spot- light onto one of the deeper issues involving California water. The controversy was really over whether the federal government or the people of California would have control of the water. Public ownership finally won out insofar as the Central Valley Project itself was concerned. There were two facts that really tipped the scale. One was that the project would make vast amounts of Scoggins: publicly owned power for sale, and the other was federal officials constantly pressing forward with the argument that rapid development was in the national interest and the federal government was ready and willing to put up the money and put people to work. Looking back now, I would say California would still be arguing the question if it hadn't been for those two timely arguments,

The next big fight over water came when it was recognized that there were still vast acreages in the San Joaquin Valley in need of water. They couldn't be served by the Central Valley Project and new facilities would be required. Southern Cali- fornia tied into this demand and urged that all sights be raised and a project undertaken that would move most of Northern Cali- fornia's surplus water over the Tehachapi Mountains and into Southern California, This proposal, as you know, provoked years of controversy and is still under the constant fire of those groups who want no more dams or physical changes in the state, Every governor since back in Olson's day--Warren, Knight, Brown, and Reagan--has made a contribution to the project.

Morris: You participated in some of those campaigns yourself, didn't you?

Scoggins: Yes, I helped in the publicity for several of them, but maybe if I relate just one experience it will illustrate just how confusing and frustrating such projects can become. lhis starts back in the time Goodwin Knight was governor, An influential group of landowners on the west side of the San Joaquin Valley decided they would create a water district and seek any surplus water that could be brought their way. They had the land and they had a plan to pump water out of the San Joaquin-Sacramento River delta and store it in a reservoir that could meet their needs, The plan called for building what is now known as the San Luis Reservoir.

My initial job as a public relations consultant in regard to the project was to prepare the material that had been assembled in a manner that would tell the San Luis Project story in the proper places. This included convincing other areas in need of water that the project would not hurt them. It included efforts to convince Southern California water leaders that the project would not dim their prospects for getting Northern California water. It included convincing state and federal officials of the feasibility of the project from the public acceptance standpoint as well as cost and usage standpoints. Well, to cut a long story short, what started out as the dream of a group of San Joaquin Valley landowners, in dire need of water, became a unit of a much greater project in which the State of California, the United States government and numerous water user groups and power users acquired a physical as well as a financial interest, Water that Scoggins: goes through the San Luis Reservoir not only goes to the land of my former clients, but goes on to other San Joaquin Valley lands and over mountains to Southern California, No more complex water project has ever been constructed,*

Such a project obviously calls for unmeasurable vision, patience and persistence plus downright able political leadership, But all that has happened hasn't yet settled the issue, Southern California wants more water and Northern California is growing more reluctant to divert its surpluses, In addition, there are increasingly noisy groups that want to halt all water development, dam construction and water diversion, New values are being raised for consideration,

It all started with mining, agriculture, power, and community values, Then the federal government joined in adding the values of flood control and navigation, Today recreation and pollution control are winning increasing recognition as measurable values, The argument hasn 't ended, . Ihe fights continue and I am sure governors will be facing the issue for years to come,

Morris: What was the role of Ed Hyatt and Bob Edmonston, the state engineers in Warren's administration, in this maze of state and federal and private interest in water planning?

Scoggins: The Hyatt and Edmonston water studies stimulated policy determinations, Iheir facts and figures pointed up potentialities but it must be remembered many other determinations had to be made before policy could be enunciated--such as financing, use priorities, future expectations and general economic atmosphere. Policy, in governmental projects, is then made by the legislature and the governor,

Public Relations and Organization

Morris: We'vementionedFordChatters, He seems tohavebeenactive in a number of campaigns, including those of Earl Warren, Can you tell me what his role was?

Scoggins: Ford Chatters was a very able newspaper owner at Lindsay and a distinguished state assemblyman from that area,

* Samples of this material are in the Earl Warren Archive in Bancroft Library, Scoggins: He was, for example, the author of the state income tax bill used as the tax compromise when labor stalled a sales tax bill. 5is was back in Governor Rolph's time. He was active in middle- of -the-road Republican circles and the California Newspaper Publisherst Association. He was a rather close friend of Irving Martin of Stockton and Clem Whitaker, Sr., who handled publicity for many campaigns. It was rather natural, therefore, that when either Martin or Whitaker wanted to know what was going on in the San Joaquin Valley they would check with Chatters, among others. If Chatters was really interested he would devote time to finding out and he naturally became an important contact and a valuable adjunct to any campaign. He served in all of Warrent s campaigns and he later served for many years as a member of the California State Personnel Board by Warren appointment.

Morris: Just what is it men like Ford Chatters do in a campaign?

Scoggins: Well, there is a formula that has to be filled in every campaign. It requires a lot of men and women and most of them volunteer. You have to have people who can talk with newspaper editors and writers. You have to have people who can talk to TV and radio executives. You have to have people who can approach fraternal leaders, business leaders, educators, labor leaders, women's groups, professional groups and all the rest. It cannot be done by the same person for the doors just don't open automatically. It requires a selective diversity of personalities. And, to be performed best it requires experience. Ford Chatters was the type of man who could enter a lot of doors, but more than that he could make personnel suggestions and he knew how to follow through with programs. Incidentally, the best contact work is usually performed by volunteers.

Morris: And why does a volunteer volunteer?

Scoggins: For several reasons. He may be so full of idealism that he thinks something good just has to happen. He might want a change very badly and be determined to defeat the incumbent. He might, for many reasons, think the candidate he is supporting is not only the best candidate but the hope of the future. Or he might be looking for a future job. Whatever the reason, if it embodies enthusiasm it can be utilized.

Morris: What you are saying applies to all campaigns? Scoggins: Yes, whenever you get enough people interested in a cause it is the volunteers that usually bring the victory. Warren had an ability, a marked ability, to attract people who were idealistic enough to want changes and better government. It was really the volunteers in labor, business, agriculture, the professions, and all the rest who delivered the victory punch. It was his Scoggins: recognition of this that made him give so many "Reports to the people" and hold regular news conferences, It was men like Chatters in every area who helped stir up enthusiasm, made "grass roots" suggestions and the necessary rechecks.

Morris: How about travel? When Warren was campaigning did you travel with him much?

Scoggins: I personally seldom traveled with the governor when he was actually campaigning in the state. I stayed chiefly in Sacramento or Los Angeles . Morris: What I am really thinking about is who's sitting in the fiddle of the web keeping things going?

Scoggins: Well, actually there were many webs. In any big campaign one has to learn to delegate both work and responsibility.

Morris: You delegate, but to do it effectively you must know what man or woman is best for the specific task. In other words,who can best see a certain person, make the most appropriate speech for the occasion and so on.

Scoggins: Maybe I should have said you select people who can and will accept responsibility and in turn delegate work and responsibility, Morris: But somebody has to sit there and know all the facts about what is going on, Scoggins: Actually there are several phases of activity during a campaign and no one person knows all the details, Tne what, when and where involving a candidate's personal activities is one type of consideration. The budget and the financing is another type of consideration. The publicity and advertising is another and finally there is the question of organization.

Morris: Let's talk about organization for a moment.

Scoggins: Well, in the case of Warren, a Northern California and a Southern California headquarters were established. From out of these offices worked publicity people, contact people and professional organizers. Since the object in any such campaign is to stir up action at the precinct level, the need to delegate is understood..

Morris: How do you go about getting the campaign down to the precinct level?

Scoggins: To really succeed there are several things that have to be done. How far you go is always limited by the amount of money available. Scoggins: These days W gets the big bite out of the budget, the press and literature come next, and organization trails along as best it can. 0rganiza.tion at the precinct level can only be accomplished through wholesale delegation of responsibility and close supervision of small units. You see it develop with considerable efficiency in city and county elections but it is hard to achieve in statewide elections unless there is an emotional push behind the efforts.

Morris: How did you proceed in the Warren campaigns?

Scoggins: First off,the Northern and Southern headquarters dispatched trained peuple to visit media representatives and open some doors for publicity. Where possible, Warren himself visited with editors and publishers. Next the organization people started making the rounds. When possible they would delegate area campaign responsibility, name city, county and group chairmen and in general pass along campaign philosophy. Incidentally, it was always necessary to try to line up some finances in each area to take care of part-time paid workers, campaign offices and minor expenses. Advertising and literature would be prepared and paid for from the general campaign headquarters but the various local headquarters were involved in distribution. As I said before, there were always many webs, The people in the center of each conferred with their counterparts mostly by telephone. The Northern California and the Southern California headquarters likewise conferred and both reported to the candidate in regard to stratem and schedules, Actually, I guess you could say that the only person in the center of the web in a Warren campaign was Warren himself and he carried on in his own way while leaning heavily on all the other web sitters, be the web large or small, The only way to do otherwise would have been to build a political machine such as you find in some of the Eastern states and Warren was dead set against domineering partisan or personal machines,

Morris: I'm still interested in the process of delegation.

Scoggins: Well, after a few campaigns a professional knows just where to turn,in theory. His task is to find someone to do it in reality. For example you send a man into a county or a city, take Merced County, for example. He knows that there are certain people in Merced County who must be contacted. He also knows that failure to contact some of them will be harmful because people who feel slighted are always a problem. And, he knows he is going to have to trust the judgment of local people when it comes to making campaign assignments and that it can't be done overnight. He has to work out the answers to many questions. There are publishers to be visited. Who can do it best? There are women in the county who are prominent in statewide groups. Who can best contact them? There are veteran party workers to be invited into Scoggins: the campaign. Who can do it best? Who can best keep state campaign headquarters alert to local issues and problems? Who can help get a local campaign office going?

Once these and numerous other questions have been put in the hopper for serious consideration, local leadership is selected and that leadership is charged with accepting responsibility for delegation as well as work. It's a task of finding somebody who knows somebody and then getting them both to work finding somebody else who will do the same thing. The deeper you can dig into each precinct the better your chances on election day. In my own experience in this kind of work, I have always marveled at the ease with which people can be enlisted when they think the cause is worthy. me professional campaigner's job, of course, is to get to them with the campaign story.

Morris: What about the cost of all this campaigning? Political campaign costs have become a matter of national concern.

Scoggins: The years I have been talking about were years when there weren't so many people in the state to try to influence and a monstrous W bill hadn't yet been heard of. We could do for a few hundred thousand dollars what takes millions now. State law then, as now, called for the formation of official campaign committees and the filing of collection and expenditure reports with the secretary of state but the amounts involved today are fantastic compared with then. More money was spent in the last mayor race in San Francisco than was used in those days to elect most statewide officers.

Morris: Have you any other comparisons you can think of?

Scoggins: Today you can easily lose a race if you don't have TV exposure. The cost for this one phase of campaigning is prohibitive insofar as an ordinary candidate is concerned. mat's why Congress has concerned itself with the problem. But in those days we used newspapers, billboards and literature for candidate exposure. It was a generous campaign that could offer two or three ads to all the papers in the state with a few more ads going to large papers and papers in areas where the going was particularly tough. Candidates in those days were not expected to be two places at once as they are today. That's what air travel has done for campaigning. Warren was one of the first to really use an airplane in California campaigning. It means he could often speak in opposite ends of the state the same day. It also meant he could keep the media doubly busy reporting developments.

Morris: There is another person I would like to ask about because I know ' you worked with him and he gained considerable stature in national Morris: public relations circles and that is Clem Whitaker, Sr. Could you describe him for me physically?

Scoggins: Well, he was tall and slender, prematurely gray and fairly sharp featured. He never had to really worry about weight and he had a lot of physical drive.

Morris: He introduced some innovations into the public relations business didn't he?

Scoggins: Yes, he pioneered, in a large sense, nationally, the use of professional public relations people in connection with candidates and issues. 'Ihere were others around the country who eventually came to offer much the same service but he was the real pioneer in offering a package service for a campaign. There were very few firms operating then that could so quickly and professionally produce literature, speeches, billboards, advertising copy and campaign guides.

Morris: How did he get his start?

Scoggins: When I first knew him he was a Sacramento correspondent for the San Francisco Examiner, a Hearst paper. He got into the statewide field in two ways. Back in the C. C. Young administration there were publishers who expressed a willingness to publish more details of Governor young's accomplishments if copy was provided. Whitaker was induced to launch a special news service with the copy offered to all papers. He succeeded rather well with this venture; then along came Senator John McColl, Senator George Hatfield and others and offered him a publicity job promoting the Central Valley Project. He did so well that he decided to make such campaigns his career. He sold his news agency and moved to San Francisco where he retained his prominence by issuing a weekly news clip sheet sent to all newspapers in the state. 'Ihe clip sheet was of course made possible by his clients and he lined up some of the biggest, including utilities and business groups.

Morris: And then came his big break?

Scoggins: That's right. When Warren first ran for governor Whitaker handled some of his publicity and his Northern California advertising. Warren didn't like his publicity style, however, and they didn't work too well together. They had no f'urther association and later on some of Whitaker's clients led the fight to oust Warren.

But Whitaker's real break came when Warren told California doctors and the legislature some kind of a medical insurance plan was necessary and probably inevitable. Whitaker got the California Medical Association account and the fight was on. Warren kept Scoggins: saying "our major purpose is to spread the catastrophic cost of medical care among all the people of the state." Whitaker's spokesmen introduced phrases such as "socialized medicine" and termed the proposal socialist and communist inspired. In fact they went so far as to have opponents of the plan say a vote against it was a vote against Stalin. Whitaker and his clients actually succeeded in delaying most of the Warren plan. In doing so Whitaker attracted the attention of the American Medical Association and was employed to operate on a national basis. His acti~tiesin California had been financed to a large extent by mandatory assessments on every member of the California Medical Association. Now he had mandatory assessments on every member of the American Medical Association as his support. He moved to Chicago and launched one of the biggest public pressure campaigns yet undertaken in the country. It took form through newspapers, advertising, billboards, lobbyists and letter writing. I knew many members of his staff at the time and he had some real producers.

Morris: The firm name at the time was Whitaker and Baxter. Who was the Baxter ?

Scoggins: Leone Baxker was Whitaker's wife (she was an associate of Senator John McColl back in the water campaign days) and they formed a partnership to continue on in the publicity field. After the big "socialized medicine" battles, Whitaker slowly retired. The clip sheet, the advertising business and the campaign accounts were sold to a group headed by Clem Whitaker, Jr. and the name of Whitaker and Baxter continues. Morris: Does the Whitaker and Baxter operation of today resemble that of the medical campaign days?

Scoggins: It hasn't a bonanza account such as the American Medical Associa- tion to pour in money in any needed amount but it still renders many specialized services. It has good art and copy producers, widespread contacts and some long-standing clients of prominence. It has in recent years handled the Senator Robert Griffin campaign in Michigan, various public relations activities for Senator Everett Dirksen, a dozen or more hotly contested California ballot issues, a number of California and Nemda local campaigns, and rendered special counseling and project services for dozens of California's major business and industrial groups. In other words, it has kept busy. I have served as a consultant and organizer on a number of its projects myself. Management responsibility rests with Clem Whitaker, Jr., who was well trained by his father.

Incidentally, we used the word pioneer a little bit ago. Let me read what the firm has to say on the subject: Scoggins: "Whitaker and Baxter pioneered the concept of providing a continuing service of professional campaign management by a qualified and permanently staffed firm, as opposed to the 'in and out' management services of individuals rewarded by political appointment. --- The firm handles local as well as statewide ballot proposals and candidates and specializes in political public relations counseling for industries, associations and committees with problems at all levels of government--local, state and national."

Morris: In Warren's campaigns, was there a system for keeping track of voting patterns, changes, trends, election analysis? Was this used in campaign planning? How did you keep track of public opinion on issues that Warren was particularly interested in?

Scoggins: This was back in the days before polls of the type now used. We relied most on analysis of newspaper editorials, knowledge of legislative attitudes, contacts with issue or area leaders, evaluation of group support, and knowledge of responses and trends. Morris: I should say so. Some people get cross when I a,sk this, but did you go to journalism school or did you learn on the job?

Scoggins: I learned in what is often called the "hard way." Journalism school? There were only about two of them in the country that had a reputation in those days, and they were beyond my reach. So I went the route *om police reporting, to feature writing, to political writing and editorial writing, to publisher's representative. men I quit newspapering as such and went. to Sacramento and started almost twenty years of public life--state and federal.

The Stockton Record

Mbrris: Let's get back to newspapering. You really started newspapering in Stockton?

Scoggins: Tnat's right. In my high school days I had been a correspondent for the Sacramento Bee, the Oakland Tribune and the Stockton Record. Later the Stockton Record offered me a job that looked good and I started work. &e first title I achieved was that of "farm editor." We put out a weekly farm section as part of the Saturday issue. I can tell you now we used to fill up a lot of columns with special articles written by professor friends at Davis.

Morris: You mentioned you were the publisher's representative just before leaving newspaper work. I'm not quite sure what that means. Scoggins: It means that on many matters you speak for the publisher.

Morris: You mean both inside and outside the publishing area?

Scoggins: It was largely a matter of giving voice to the publisher's intentions and decisions. For example, I remember one time talking to two candidates for the United States Senate in one day, Senator William Gibbs McAdoo came to town and I went to breakfast with him. He wanted to know how he stood in the community. I told him that unless he came to grips with the old folks1 pension issue he would likely lose the nomination. All I was doing was advocating he face up to the issue so that voters would know he was concerned. He didn't believe such action was required. He got beat by Sheridan Downey who went on to win in November. Dmey also came to see me that day. I told him we couldn't be for him because he was deliberately misleading the pension groups and the Tuwnsend groups and doing so in a manner which we could not approve. All this was just one of the functions of a publisher1s representative as we practiced it in Stockton. V A JOURNALIST'S CAREER

Morris: Could I ask you how you happened to go into journalism and become a newspaperman?

Scoggins: How I happened to? Beyond the fact that I liked to write and opportunities seemed to constantly develop, I really don't know. Back in my high school days I wrote as the local correspondent for two or three daily newspapers, managed the school paper, and did all those things that a guy does under those conditions.

Morris: I would say only a few people do--only one a year in each high school.

Scoggins: Well, I guess those were my years. Morris: Was this in Stockton?

Scoggins: I was born in Stockton but I went to grade and high school in Lodi and then f'ussed around for a time at the University Farm at Davis. In a sense I was a dropout, but I can report that my last classroom work, as such, was at the American Management School in New York.

Morris: From your experiences at Lodi and at Davis, you learned to know California as an agricultural state as a boy?

Scoggins: I grew up in the middle of agriculturalundertakings. My summer jobs when I was a youngster were pretty largely working for big f'ruit companies or agricultural enterprises. I remember straw- bossing crews of fruit pickers when I was still in my teens.

I started writing agricultural articles for national farm magazines while I was in high school and at the University Farm at Davis I found a bonanza of material. I used to get the latest reports on tests and experiments, take a few pictures with m;y old Graflex and sell the material to magazines. It helped pay school costs. Morris: If you went almost directly from high school to a newspaper, the people on the paper must have had a fairly large influence on your ideas as a young man?

Scoggins: !Che publisher of the Stockton Record had a real influence on me as did many others Icein contact with. For instance at Davis I met Forsyth Hunt, dean of the College of Agriculture. He was always a good adviser as was former Governor C. C. Young and Tully C. Knoles, president of the College of Pacific, and many others. One thing I learned as a newspaper correspondent while in high school was that being a reporter is a quick way to get acquainted and become known and find out what makes a town click. It helps to build contacts.

Morris: ForsythHunt? That's ahandsomename.

Scoggins: Dean Hunt--a great gentleman. He wanted me to develop as a farm writer and for a time I did. I traveled around quite a bit doing magazine articles. He steered me into a lot of good subjects.

Morris: Whatwere good agricultural stories in those days? Do you remember ?

Scoggins: Davis in those days was one of the leading experimental stations in the world in the fields of agronomy, horticulture and animal husbandry. There was always a market for a good personalized story about new methods, new harvesting machinery, new fertilizers, chemicals and the results of breeding and production research and development. Hoards Dairyman might be interested in a report, with pictures, about what the university was doing with its Jersey or Guernsey herd. The Country Gentleman might be interested in newly developed methods for propagating flower seeds or bulbs. !Che Americk~~ruitGrower Magazine might be interested in a story and pictures of some new cherry harvesting equipment. The list was iong and the opportunities were plentiful, until a world war came along and cut the supply of paper and raised costs to the point where such magazines began to contract or go out of business. Some of my writing associates in those days are still writing such material and finding themselves features in national magazines, but here again the entire market is changing. Some have written books with considerable success. Public Utilities Commissioner: 1953-1955

Morris: You continued on in public service after your years with Governor Warren. You became a member of the California Public Utilities Commission before Governor Warren went to Washington?

Scoggins: Yes, just before Warren left the state, he appointed me to membership on the public utilities commission and my appointment was confirmed by the state senate and acknowledged by Governor Goodwin Knight when he succeeded Warren in office. It was an interesting experience.

Morris: As a commissioner, did you carry out some of the ideas of growth that you had worked out with Warren?

Scoggins: Growth was naturally having an influence on the commission. You can't introduce four million people into a state in such a short time and keep on ,accepting thousands more each month without affecting every governmental activity. I-had had a vote on the California Highway Commission when the freeway programs were beginning to arbitrarily route through traffic off of Main Street. Now I had a vote on such questions as who would pay for grade separations over railroad tracks, what rules and considerations should govern truck rates, power rates, water rates and many other service activities. It was a rather common expression of Earl Warren and all the rest of us in those days that the stream of events was so strong you had to mim your best to keep even.

Morris: Can you give me a specific illustration?

Scoggins: Well, I could tell a San Francisco Bay Area story involving trucks. I remember holding a long series of hearings in which trucking companies in the San Francisco Bay Area formally sought to demonstrate that earlier concepts of regulation of their industry were hurting everyone much more than they were helping. It required months of legal forensics, but the record finally showed that most of the truckers were operating under commission permits that still reflected routes and areas of service of the horse and dray days.

Morris: Will you explain that a little more?

Scoggins: If I remember right there were thirty-three San Francisco trucking firms asking the legal right to use the famous bridges and make deliveries to other Bay Area cities. They really didn't have much difficulty proving that the thrust of business and industry was away from the confines of the old horse and dray permit limita- tions and had reached the point where it was harming the truckers as well as restricting needed services. I mention this only to Scoggins: show that failure to recognize growth and change can be harmful in many ways. I remember emphasizing this point in an address before the Commonwealth Club of California back in 1954. My point was that regulatory orderliness and efficiency were calling for changes in statutes as well as commission orders. I cited what automobiles were causing to happen in suburbs, how gadget inventions were often overtaxing electric supply lines, how planes and buses were causing a startling decline in the use of trains, and how natural gas being piped into the state was changing the energy outlook. Likewise, I pointed out that the commission had to help generate an atmosphere in which utility companies could market the securities needed to pay for all the needed developments . Morris: But you were only on the commission a short time. How come?

Scoggins: I was appointed to fill a vacancy that existed in a normal six- year term.

Morris: Didyouwant tocontinue?

Scoggins: It wasn't something I would fight for and,looking back now, I'm glad I changed course.

Postal Service Reorganization

Morris: What was your next public service?

Scoggins: Upon leaving the commission I found myself busy with public relations job offers, particularly in the field of water development. But before I really got started along came an offer to help reorganize the United States Post Office Department. Fifteen men were selected to create regions and bring about a general department reorganization. It was President Eisenhower's deter- minakion that his administration should make a serious effort to follow the Hoover Commission's recommendations in regard to management of the postal service. Like everyone else we soon found the personnel problem to be tied in with congressional politics and unions but we did a.ccomplish a lot in bringing order to financial procedures and in breaking down age-old customs and procedures in the handling, routing and delivery of mail. Actually, I guess we exposed more faults in need of correction than we actually corrected, but we laid a groundwork for service progress that will eventually be appreciated. I spent six years in this work and, f'rankly, I learned a lot about Washington bureaucracy, government unions, congressional blundering and, let's say, politics in general. At the same time, I learned to Scoggins: sincerely respect the loyalty and desire to serve of the great rank and file of the postal service employees who, unfortunately, had little or no voice in what was going on. Morris: And when that was over, you went back into the public relations business?

Scoggins: From which I am now trying to retire and Live happily ever after.

Morris: What was your last campaign activity? Scoggins: It may surprise you but it was drawing a series of cartoons opposing Proposition 9, the environmental measure on the June 1972 state ballot. Whit aker and Baxter are handling the campaign. Morris: And where did that capability come from?

Scoggins: Back in my newspaper days, I was in charge of the editorial page for some time and that included working with the cartoonist. I did none of the drawing, but I had something to say about the subject matter and the approach and it was fun. Now that I have the time, I find I really like to sketch and draw cartoons.

Campaign Consultant

Morris: In ye biography, that nice one page summary, you say that a number of campaigns that you worked on after you left government service were in connection with Whitaker and Baxber. How does this work? Scoggins: The firm of Whitaker and Baxter is a professional service organization that, in accordance with needs, staffs itself with specialists either as employees or associates. As I have said before, it has excellent facilities for coordinating research, for artwork and literature preparation, for publicity and for general organization activity. In my association with Whitaker, we have worked together on specific projects. My value was, of course, the contribution I could make through my wide acquaintance in Washington and in California in general, plus my knowledge of campaign procedures and general publicity requirements. I functioned in the role of consultant on many subjects, but chiefly as the coordinator of organization efforts. Morris: Then you worked with both Clem Whitaker, Sr . and Clem Whitaker, Jr .?

Scoggins: Yes, but not in the same sense. When I was a newspaperman, I sometimes worked with Clem, Sr . in developing publicity and Scoggins: contacts for someone my boss, Irving Martin of the Stockton Record,was interested in. It was Martin who really got Clem, Sr. started in general publicity work. Morris: How was that?

Scoggins: Back in the days when C. C. Young was governor and Irving Martin was his campaign coordinator, a number of publishers who were strong Young boosters decided there was a need for more detailed stories about Young's accomplishments. mey agreed to pay for such stories if they were well written and contained information of general interest that the regular wire services lack space for in the daily rush of news gathering. Clem, Sr. was selected to develop such a service. With this start he built what was known as the California Feature Service. When he left Sacramento and opened offices in San Francisco, he sold the news service but took along the name California Feature Service,which he turned into a clip sheet service for all newspapers and other media. !Be service which includes suggested editorials as well as news and comment is supplied for nothhg insofar as users are concerned. Whitaker and Baxter clients foot the bill. Use of the material extends from one end of the state to the other. In campaign periods, I have known forty or fifty newspapers to make use of one of the suggested editorials. It's still a valuable piece of property for Clem Whitaker today. Anyone who has watched initiative and referendum campaigns in the state knows the clip sheet makes a real contribution in the interest of Whitaker and Baxter clients,for it provides campaign background to the media that is professionally prepared and timed. To fully understand this, put yourself in the place of a weekly or small tm newspaperman who wants to take a firm position on an issue. Hand him a well-prepared campai~story or a well thowt out editorial that he can agree with and he is very likely to use the argument in his own material if he doesn't use the material as is.

Morris: I notice that you have been associated with Whitaker and Baxber in several initiative and referendum campaigns in California and in campaigns directed from both Washington and Chicago. What function did you perform? Scoggins: Chiefly organization. On occasion, I have sat in a Washington office and coordinated the development of a nationwide paper organization that could make itself felt in congress. At the same time, I helped Clem, Jr. and his staff unfold strong publicity and lobby canrpaigns under the banner of the national organization thus created. We did this a couple of times for projects in which Senator Everett Dirksen was vitally interested and in connection with several other national issues. Warren's Appointment as Chief Justice

Morris: Back in the days when Governor Warren was being considered for appointment as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, did you have any specsal part in, or awacreness of, what was going on?

Scoggins: No more than the awareness that comes from knowing who was tallring to whom. I could relate one little story in this category that might be of interest to you. During those days when speculation over President Eisenhower's pending action in regard to the Supreme Court appointment was in the press daily, Warren decided not to forego a hunting trip to the islands off Santa Barbara. It was that time of year and he decided it would do no harm to be away from Sacramento in spite of all the appointment gossip in Washing- ton, D .C. To protect him we set up a signal system in case he was needed,for there were no telephones on the island. We flew to Ventura where he was met by Mayor McCarty and his party and they all went out to the island. I returned to Sacramento with the knowledge that communication with the governor could be established by calling Mayor McCarty's office and by radio shipdo-shore telephone contact could be made with the hunting party. The message would be "you are needed back in Ventura. " In Sacramento a call came through from Herbert Brawnell, Attorney General, and the man who handled Eisenhower's appointment details. I1Verne, I'm flying to Sacramento. w ill the governor be there?" A call to Ventura started the message to the hunters. Warren came ashore and started for Sacramento to meet Brownell, who was to land at a military air base near Sacramento. Ihe two men sat unnoticed for hours in Brownell's plane. Then Brawnell took off for Washington, DOC,, and Warren's driver picked him up and took him to the governor's mansion. The press, and no one for sure knew what was happening, It was Besident Eisenhower's story and he broke it in his own way. Warren received the Eisenhower telegram and made public his answering telegram and that was that. It wasn't much later that a press release was distributed which read in part: "1. Governor Warren will be in Washington Monday to take his oath when the Supreme Court of the United States convenes. 2. ~e *u resign as Governor as of midnight Sunday October 4th. 3. He will go to Washington alone. Mrs. Warren will remain in Sacramento to close the mansion and take care of family matters. 4. me Governor will live in a hotel in Washington until Mrs. Warren can join him. 5. Governor Warren will confer immediately with Lt . Gov. Goodwin Knight. He will offer to place himself at Knight's disposal to acquaint him with office details and current State problems. I1 Public Relations Sampler

Morris: In our discussion so far we have developed a rather impressive list of your activities as a newspaperman, public official, and public relations specialist. Have we missed any undertakings that might further point up the multiplicity of activities engaged in by a man with such a public and semi- public career? Scoggins: Public relations work during the past thirty or forty years has changed in many ways insofar as tools and methods are concerned but, basically, I mu18 say the opportunities for such work are much the same. For example, looking back I recall once handling publicity for a campaign to sell the merits of the Sacramento- San Joaquin Delta potato to the Western market. We had several growers pour enough nitrogen fertilizer onto the rich Delta peat soil to produce world potato production records and then had community celebrations honoring the achievement, Idaho- produced potatoes were, of course, the villain.

I can also recall being a part of the publicity activity that brought the Jumping Frog Jubilee into existence at Angels Camp in Calaveras County, the setting for Mark Twain's story, "The Jumping Frog of ~alaveras," What a field day we had dream- ing up ways of linking the romance of the gold rush days with modern mass entertainment requirements. It was fun to help revive tales about Poverty Flat, Sandy Bar, Poker Flat, Red Gulch and all the rest. Writers are still doing the same thing for the annual celebrations. Jumping Frog contests are now held in many states as proof that the idea caught on. Morris: That Mother bde area is really filled with historic tales end romantic legends, isn't it? Scoggins: To me it is one of California's most scenic and picturesque attractions. Back in those days I had almost equal fun being a part of the drive to have the old town of Columbia turned into a state park. Columbia's old buildings were extremely well preserved and it was determined its store fronts and all should be completely preserved. The state legislature enacted the necessary acquisition law early in the Warren administration. Columbia had once, back in the gold rush days, made a bid to become the state capitol so we decided it would be proper to have the governor sign the acquisition bill into law at an appropriate place in Columbia. High ranking judicial, legislative, and administrative officials journeyed to Columbia to witness the signing. It turned into quite a celebration. Morris: What about other activities you engaged in, in connection with agriculture?

Scoans: Well, there was the time I went to San Jose and handled publicity in a determined effort to save the image of the California Prune and Apricot Growers Association, a statewide cooperative that was under heavy economic pressure and hampered by serious membership discouragement. It required a change in membership attitude, a change in management and a strong re- entry into the national prune market to keep the cooperative ship afloat. We did it.

With the prune experience behind me,I found it natural to be helping the raisin grower cooperative wlth some of its problems and this led into helping growers with their water projects.

Another activity back in those years was in behalf of the chain stores. The state legislature had enacted a law taxing chain,stores in a manner designed to curtail their expansion. me chain stores banded together for a referendum campaign. Farmers in those days had little friendship for chain store markets. My job was to find out why and give direction to efforts to change or break down the resistance. We made a careful survey of farmer thought in various parts of the state, using chiefly college business management students on vacation as in-depth interviewers. The results became a guide to our campaign approach. We won the election in both city and rural areas. The composite of farmer thinking which we developed became a factor in later campaigps in other states mere the chain store issue arose.

I could go on relating other ways in which a public relations man kept busy but it would only be repetitive of what many other pubUc relations men have done. mere was one other activity which I will mention, however. When Pearl Harbor was bombed by the Japanese I soon found miyself invited to be a part of General DeWitt 's public relations imformation program. The Western Defense Command created a wartime Civil Control Admin- istration which in turn used public relations men to measure and influence public understanding of what was going on. My work included visits to numbers of Japanese relocation centers and reporting my findings to those advising General DeWitt. I interviewed a good many Japanese-American young people and learned much of their thinking under such forced conditions. Likewise I checked into the losses and problems of older people who just couldn't understand what it was all about. I remember one young girl, born and raised in a San Joquin Valley farming community. She lost her mind. She had been a brilliant student, never learned to speak Japanese and just couldn't stand spending her days and nights with people who were speaking only Japanese. Scoggins: She just went to pieces under the strain even though she was moved to another center,

I can assure you that some of the things I encountered left a lasting impression, but I guess it was ever thus when things are done under wartime pressures,

Transriber: Jane West Final Typist: Beverly Heinrichs PARTIAL LIST OF MATERIALS WRITTEN BY VERNE SCOGGINS

The total volume of Verne Scoggins' product as press officer for Governor Warren was considerable. The majority of this material is in the State Archives in Sacramento. Some press releases may be found in subject files in the Earl Warren Archive in The Bancroft Library. In addition, Scoggins donated the following drafts and pamphlets which give a sampling of his declarative, fact-filled, candid style over the years, and which may be read in The Bancroft Library. .

1. "Earl Warren (His Stand) ," draft for 1948 convention pamphlet (?), 4 pages.

2. "Earl Warren for President," 1948 convention pamphlet, with pictures, 10 pages.

3. Position papers on nine years' accomplishments under Governor Warren. Topics: finance, water, agriculture, education, public health, labor, worker insurance programs, social welfare, veterans affairs, mental health, prisons, youth, recreation, natural resources. Binder, 58 pages, prepared in August-September, 1951.

4. "I have decided to enter the presidential primary in the State of Wisconsin," press statement by Governor Warren, February 19, 1952.

5. "Earl Warren (A Biography) ,I1 draft for 1952 convention (?), 8 pages.

6. "It Happened in California. The story of a state, its Governor, Earl Warren, and 11 years of history-making growth and expansion. This pamphlet printed and distributed at private expense by a group of friends of Earl Warren," September 1, 1953.

7. "The San Luis Project, a report on the plans, the problems and the prospects confronting the sponsors of this water project," Fresno, California, October 29, 1955.

And the following miscellany:

8. Odd requests and correspondence, 1942-52, 3 pages. INDEX -- Verne Scoggins

Agnew, Frank, 61 agriculture, 16, 39, 77, 79, 86 Alameda County, 6, 8 American Federation of Labor (An)-; 2 7 American Fruit Grower Magazine, 79 American Legion, 45 American Management School, 77 American Medical Association, 75 Anderson, Alice, 30-31 appointments made by Warren, 14, 31, 40-41, 46, 51-52, 80 Associated Press, 31

Bank of America, 51 Bakersfield Californian, 54 Baxter, Leone, 75 bosses, political, 49-50 Brennan, Bernard, 46 Bromley, Elmer, 61 Brown, Edmund G. (Pat), 25, 37-38 . Brownell, Herbert, 84 Butler, Monroe, 61 Button, Ron, 46

California State- Attorney General, 5, 7 Department of Corrections, 40 Department of Finance, 18-19 Department of Public Works, 40 Highway Commission, 40 Personnel Board, 70 Public Utilities Commission, 49, 80-81 Reconstruction & Re-employment Commission, 18-19 Relief Administration (SRA.), 2-3 California Feature Service, 83 California Medical Association, 74 California Newspaper Publishers' A,ssn., 54, 56 California Prune and Apricot Growers' Assn., 86 California Republican Assembly, 8 campaigns, 42-43, 45-46, 48, 52-54, 63, 70, 72-73, 83 campaigns, (1932), 2; (1938), 7; (1940), 21; (1942), 1, 5-10, 14, 30, 47, 74; (1944), 21, 23, 38; (1946), 51; (1948), 21, 23-26, 36, 48; (1950), 13, 22, 55; (1952), 21, 24 campaign trains, 25-27 Carr, Lawrence, 31 Carrillo, Leo, 28 Central Valley Project, 67, 68, 74 chain stores, 86 Chandler, Norman, 46 Chatters, Ford, 46, 56, 69, 70-71 Chotiner, Murray, 24, 45-46 civil defense, 13-14, 40 Coakley, Tom, 46 Coblentz, Edmund, 46 College of the Pacific, 79 Columbia Broadcasting System (CBS), 36 Columbia State Park, 85 Commonwealth Club of California, 81 communism, 3, 41, 45, 47, 55, 58, 62, 75 Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO), 2 Congressional Record, 63 Country Gentleman, The, 79 cross-filing, 6, 48-50

Daniels, Burdette, 31, 42 Decoto, Ezra, 6 DeLap, T.H. Democratic party, 2, 4-5, 7, 9-10, 44, 50, 52 depression (1930~)~3-4, 39, 51, 66 Deuel, Charles, 41 Deuel Vocational Institute, 42 Dewey, Thomas E., 23, 25, 37, 43 DeWitt, John L., 86 Dirksen, Everett, 75, 83 disability insurance, 20, 22 Downey, Sheridan, 78 Duff, James, 38

Economy Bloc, 2 Edmonston, Bob, 69 education, 16, 20, 38 Eisenhower, Dwight D., 25, 43, 84 elections, 4, 6, 48-49, 64, 72, 83 employment, 18, 38 End- Poverty in California movement (EPIC), 51 environmental protection, 22, 82 Faries, McIntyre, 46 finance, campaign, 71-73 finance, state, 1, 7, 16, 18-19, 41, 51, 57, 70, 86 Fresno Bee, 56 - - Fresno Republican, 54 Frost, Dudley W., 26 gasoline tax, 41, 44, 47, 60-61 Giannini, A.P., 51 Gold Rush (California), 85 Governors' Conferences, U.S., 12, 36-37 Graves, Richard, 14 Griffin, Robert, 75 Guthrie, James, 46

Haight , Ray, 46 Ham & Eggs movement, 2, 51 Hansen, Vic, 46 Hatfield, George, 74 health insurance, 20-21, 59, 74 Hearst, William Randolph, 46, 54 Hearst newspapers, 56 Henry, Bill, 23 Heron, Alexander, 18-19 highways, 44, 47, 60-61, 80 Hoards Dairyman, 79 Hoover, Herbert, 21 Hoover Commission, 81 hospitals, 20 Hunt, Forsyth, 79 Huntley, Chet, 36 Hyatt, Ed, 69

Independent Petroleum Association, 47 industry, 16, 18, 39, 75 irrigation districts, 67

Japanese-Americans, 86 Japanese relocation, 86 Johnson, Hiram, 7, 48-49, 54, 61 Jones, Walter, 46 judges, appointment of, 10, 42, 52 Jumping Frog Jubilee, 85 Keck, William B., 47 Kennedy, Vince, 61 Knight, Goodwin, 31, 68, 84 Knoles, Tully C., 79 Knowland, Joseph R., 8, 23, 46, 48 Knowland, William, 8, 46, 48, 52 Kuchel, Thomas, 52 labor unions, 11, 19, 57-58, 63, 70 law enforcement, 8 League of California Cities, 14 Leake, Paul, 46 legislature, California, 2-3, 5, 7, 10, 12, 14, 19, 33, 39, 41, 54, 58-61, 70, 74, 85-86 Little, Walter, 61 lobbying, 60-62 local government, 2-3, 14, 53 Los Angeles Examiner, 45 Los Angeles Times, 23, 45-46, 54

MacGregor, Helen, 30-31, 40 Mailliard, Ward, 46 Marshall, George, 37 Martin, Irving, Sr., 6-8, 19, 30, 46, 56, 70, 83 McAdoo, William Gibbs, 78 McC-tchey, C.K., 11 McClatchey, Eleanor, 46 McColl, John, 74-75 McLain, George, 12-13 medical profession, 47, 74 mental health, 12 mental hospitals, 42 Merriam, Frank, 2-3, 54, 57, 64 Mexican-Americans, 29 Modesto Bee, 56 Mother Lode, 28, 85 Murphy, George, 28

New Deal, 21 newspapers, political role of, 6-7, 10, 27, 32-34, 53-57, 70, 72, 74, 78 Neylan, John F., 47 Nixon, Richard M., 24-25, 46, 59 nonpartisanship, 6, 9-13, 46, 49-51 Oakland, city and attorney, 6 Oakland Tribune, 8, 23, 46, 54, 78 oil companies, 47 old-age pensions, 78 Olson, Culbert, 2-6, 9-10, 12-14, 43, 57, 68 opposition to Warren, 21-22, 41, 43-44, 46-47, 58-59, 63

Palmer, Kyle, 46 patronage, 46 Peek, Paul, 10 People's World, 55, 58 platform, Republican, 14, 21 politics, 1, 6, 10, 12, 14-15, 18-20, 24, 40, 43, 45, 47, 49-50, 53, 62-64, 78; group, 8, 70; legislative, 2, 10; lobbying, 60-62; national, 3, 14, 22-23, 25, 36-38, 47, 50, 55, 81; non-partisan, 6, 9-13, 46, 49-51; patronage, 46; public relations in, (see public relations); sectional, 4, 7, 9, 37, 45, 68, 71-72 polls, political, 1, 8, 51, 76, 86 pollution control, 69 population, 18-19, 22, 38-39 poverty plans, 51 prisons, 20, 41 Production-for-Use campaign, 2 Progressive party, 6-7, 49 protective legislation, 22 public health, 12, 16, 20, 22, 38 public power, 67 public relations, political, 7, 9, 15, 19-20, 26-28, 32-36, 42, 45, 53, 55-57, 59, 61-65, 68, 70-76, 81-83, 85-86 public utilities, 67, 74, 80 Public Utilities Commission, 49, 80-81 Purcell, Charles, 41 radio, political role of, 9, 12, 15, 26, 34-37, 53, 56-57, 70 railroads, 54, 80 Reagan, Ronald, 62, 68 Reconstruction and Re-employment Commission, 18 recreation, 20, 38 Reichel, William, 46 Republican National Committee, 7, 43 Republican party, 5-7, 9-11, 14, 21-24, 36, 43-46, 52, 70 resource development, 20 Richardson, Friend, 54 Richmond, Gordon, 46 Rolph, James, 48, 70 Roosevelt, Franklin D., 2 Roosevelt, James, 13, 22, 49-50, 55 Rowell, Chester, 54

Sacramento Bee, 54, 56, 78 '-Sacramento union, 56 ' 1 Samish, Arthur, 60-61 I San Bernardino Sun, 46 San ~rancisTGXr6nicle~54 San FGnc-iscoExaminer', 74 - San Luis Reservoir, 68-69 Santa Barbara press, 11, 46 -. - - - . . . r- - ' T ---I -- I ._- ' L - -- < ------Shattuck, Ed, 46 Sinclair, Upton, 2 Smith, Gerald L.K. , 45 Smith, John A., 47 social welfare, 2-3, 12-13, 22, 47, 51, 78 socialism, 41, 44, 47, 75 socialized medicine, 20, 75 Southern Pacific Railroad, 61 Stanford University, 21 Stassen, Harold, 25 Steinhart, Jesse, 48 Stevens, Charles, 61 Stockton Record, 7, 46, 54, 56-57, 78-79 Stockton State Hospital, 42 Storke, Thomas, 46 Superior Oil Co., 47 Sweigert, William, 30-31, 40

Taft, Robert, 21 television, political role of, 15, 26, 32-37, 43, 56-57, 62, 70, 72-73 taxes, 70, 86 Townsend plan, 78 trucking, 80 Truman, Harry S., 23-24, 44

unemployment, 1-3, 18 unemployment compensation, 20 United States Government Army, 19 Army Corps of Engineers, 67 Bureau of Reclamation, 67 Civil Control Administration, 86 Congress, 23, 73, 81 Postal Service, 81 Senate, 23 University of California, 38, 47; Davis campus, 77, 79

voting (see elections), 4, 57-59, 64

Warren family, 9, 27 Warren, Earl, 1, passim; opposition to, 9-10, 21-22, 41, 43-44, 46-47, 58-59, 63; speeches of, 1, 11, 12-13, 15-18, 22, 44 Warren, Mrs. Nine, 27 water, 16, 22, 43, 66-69, 80-86 Webb, U.S., 7 Werdel, Tom, 47 Western Defense Command, 86 Whitaker, Clem, Jr., 75, 82-83 Whitaker, Clem, Sr., 70, 74-75, 82-83 Whitaker & Baxter, Inc., 75, 82-83 Wilbur, Dr. Ray Lyman, 21 Willkie , Wendell, 25 women's groups (for Warren), 53, 70 Woodland Democrat, 11, 46 World War 11, 1, 4, 10, 11, 18, 23, 37, 39, 40, 51, 57, 79, 86-87 Wright, Loyd, 47

Young, C.C., 7, 19, 56, 74, 79, 83 Gabrielle Morris

B.A. in economics, Connecticut College, New London ; independent study in journalism , creative' writing.

Historian, U.S. Air Force in England, covering Berlin Air Lift, military agreements, personnel studies, 1951-52.

Chief of radio, TV, public relations, major New England department store; copy chief , network radio and TV station in Hartford, Connec- ticut ; freelance theatrical publicity and historical articles, 1953-55.

Earl Warren Oral Ellstory Project

Beach Vasey

GOViBJ!TOR WARBEN AND THE LEGISLATURE

An Interview Conducted by Amelia Fry and Gabrielle Morris

@ 1973 by The Regents of The University of California TABLE OF CONTENTS -- Beach Vasey

INTERVIEW HISTORY

I BACKGROUND AND CAlU3ER IN LOS ANGELES COUNTY

I1 APPOINTMENT AS LEGISLATIVE SECRETARY TO THE GOVERNOR

I11 DUTIES OF A LEGISLATIVE SECRETARY

IV PROCESSINGBILLS

V OTHER DUTIES

VI LOBBIES AND LEGISLATION

VII REMINISCING ABOUT PEOPLE AROUND GOVERNOR WARREN

VIII JUSTICE WARREN - - REAPPORTIONMENT AND CRIMINAL LAW

IX SUPPLEMENTARY REMARKS ON LEGISLATION AND THE GOVERNOR 'S OFFICE

INDEX HISTORY

Beach Vasey was interviewed by the Regional Oral History Office in order to record his observations of the office of the governor of the state of California, in which he served as legislative secretary to Earl Warren from 1944 until the governor assumed his responslbilities as Chief Justice in 1953. Juage Vasey was interviewed in his bright and spacious Superior Court chambers high in the federal court building overlooking downtown Los Angeles, an area considerably changed from that which he knew as a young deputy county counsel in the late 1930s. A first interview was conducted on Iiky 6, 1970, by Amelia Fry, project director for the Earl Warren Oral History Tro Sect. Additional questions which arose as the project developed led to a follow-up interview conducted on October 21, 19'70, by Gabrielle Morris, vshose particular concern has been the administrative departments of California government. A spare, cautious but cordial man, Judge Vasey cheerfully made time at the edges of a busy court schedule to contribute his share to the story of Earl Warren's innovations and accomplishments in the admini stration of California stace government. The interview is part of an oral history series which includes memoirs of almost every individual tvho was on Warren's immediate staff, providing a composite view of the operation and impact of the office of governor during Warren's administration. Judge Vasey reviewed the transcribed, edited manuscript and made a few minor changes. Technical difficulties in the recording of the second interview unfortunately resulted in the loss of some details of his replies.

Gabrielle Morris Interviewer-Mitor Regional Oral History Office

29 August 1972 466 The Bancroft Library University of California, Berkeley (Interview 1 - May 6, 1970)

I BACKGROUND AND CAEEER IN LOS &'JGZLZ!S COUNTY

Fry: Why don't you tell me where you were born, where you went to school, and run through your vita as you might for Who's -Who. Vasey: I am in Who's Who in the West. 7 was born in Lexoy, Illinois, on February 23, 1904. Fry: LeRoy, Illinois. That's pretty far from California. Did you go to school there? Vasey: I started in school there, but I had most of my education in public schools in New biexico, because, in 1911, my family moved to Cimarron, New filexicoo We lived there until I graduated from high school in Raton, Mew ?(exico. It was just fifty years ago -- in 1920. Fry: So you were too young for World War I? Vasey: That's right. I was just starting hish school at the time of World War I. Then we moved to Long Beach, California, after I graduated from high school. I've lived here ever since, with the exception of the time we were in Sacramento. Fry: What did your father do? Vasey: He was a banker. I entered USC as a freshman in the fall of 1920, graduated with an AmBo in '24, and a J.D. from law school in '26. In the fall of '26, I was admitted to the bar and was in private practice in Long Beach until 1928. Then I went in as deputy city attorney in the city attorneyDs office in Long Beach.

Fry: I~lasit difficult to make mol?ey in private practlice then? Vasey: It was even more difficult than it is now, it was pretty slow. If I ha?ETFlived at home with my parents I would have beenpretty hungry.

Fry : Yes, that's the way it was around Oakland in those days too.

Vasey: In 1932, I became a deputy countg counsel. Fry: Had you always been interested in politics? Is that why you went to law school?

Vasey : No. I wanted to be a,lawyer. I had no interest in politics at all,

Fry : Were you appointed deputy city attorney?

Vasey: Yes, I .was appointed by city attorney Nowland -P!. Reid. lihen I was in that office, an interestling case involving the Los Angeles Athletic Club and the City of Long Beach* came along. The Pacific Coast Club down there tried to make the city remove the municipal auditorium because it was eroding the beach in front of their club. .They went after the city to force the city to do away with their auditorium. That was a =ther important case, as you can imagineo It would have been rather disas- trous had I lost it. TI$$ an early case. 6y name appears on that. It-as actually decided after I had left the /----. /----. city attorney's office. ---..._ -I Fry: Then you became --deputy, county counsel. . Vasey : The county counsel who appointed me was Zverett Mattoon.

Fry: In that position, what did you do? Did you work with the ~oarmSupervisors? ----- Vasey: Oh, I had several different assignments, I advised

GLos Angeles Athletic Club vs. City of Long Beach. 128 California Appellate Reports 427, Dec. 1932. Vasey: county departments as to the law, I did a good deal of litigation, and I advised all the school districts in the county except the Los Angeles district. One man in the office had Los Angeles, and I had all the rest of them at one time. At different times, I also was the legal adviser for the County Planning Commission and the County Housing Authority.

Fry: Far1 Warren as D.A. rvas doing about the same thins for Alameda County that you were doing for Los Angeles County. Vasey: I should imagine.

Fry : Did you bump into him?

Vasey: Not in connection with my work. I did meet him, however. Warren and Everett Nattoon were good friends, and he visited here. I met him in the office when he was District Attorney and I was a dsputy ~ountycounsel. He was seeing Everett 3attoon socially so far as I know. And that's when I first met Earl Warren. Fry: Is Msttoon around now? Vasey: Rattoon is dead.

- Fry: ,You had bee-. to Sacramento, I JSU%.SSL- Vasey: Oh, --yes. I was the representative for the Eoard of Supgr3.sors in Sacramento, first as an.assistar-t to Hal Kennedy, who later became County Counsel; after that, as the man in charge of the Sacra~~lerlto office during legislative sessions, for the county. Fry: When you were county counsel, working with the Planning Commission, some interesting cases must have developed because that was the period when L.A. was really beginning to burgeon,

Vas ey : This was not the city of Los Angeles, of course, this was the County of Los Angeles. It was outside the city limits.

Fry: County lands were beginning to be developed as a part of the city, right? Vasey: I was in the oounty counsel's office for 12 years, from '32 to '44. Fry: Do you have any special stories about that? We're interested in Los Angeles history too. Vasey: I tried a case involving the application of the county zoning ordinance in what is called Temple City, which is on the east side of the county* Judge Swain had held the county ordinance invalid, I carried it clear to the State Supreme Court and got the Supreme Court to sustain it, as applied to a man who was doing a plumbing business frox his front yard In at residential district. Se was using it for storage of pipe, and bathtubs, and so forth, right in a residential district, Judge Swain had held he had a right to do it, that tEF-- ordinance couldn't prevent him from doing it, i had to take it clear to the State Supreme Court. We won in the Supreme Court.

Fry: That still holds, doesn't it? Vasey: Oh yes. It was rather interesting that Judge Swain in the trial court decided against me, and held it was invalid. The three judges on the District Court of Appeal decided in my favor, and held it was valid. It went to the State Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court, by a four-to-three decision held that the ordinance was invalid as applied to this particular man, So I wrote a petition for rehearing, in which my main point was that the Supreme Court has said that where reasonable minds may differ, the zoning ordinance must be upheld, I wrote a petition for rehearing arguing: he now have a judicial determination that all the planning conmissioners, five supervisors, three judges of the Court of Appeal, and three judses of the Supreme Court do not have reasonable minds, because they differ, and if reasonable minds may differ, you (the State Supreme Court) uphold the ordinance. You've overthrown the ordinance, therefore all these people do not have reasonable minds. I went to the c~untycounsel and said, "Do I dare put that in a brief?" and he says, "So ahead." Vasey: One Justice of the Supreme Court changed his mind, and I won it four to three. The most interesting case I handled in the county counsel's office representing the County Housing Authority was the test case which determined the constitutionality of the Housing Authority's law in California. I had a part in the briefs on that one. It's in the books under Housing Authority of the County of Los Angeles vs. Dockweiler.*

Fry: Tdhat was that about? Vasey: That was merely a test case to determine the constitutionality of the housing authority's law that the le%islature had enacted. Before we could borrow money from the Federal Housing Administration, or enter into any contracts, we had to be sure that the law was constitutional, that there was such a thing as the County Housing Authority. This was a test case to determine that. We worked together with the City Housing Authority in Los Angeles, and with San Francisco. But the test case involved the L.A. County Zousing Authority, so Everett Piattoon and I were the attorneys of record in the case.

*8ousing Authority of the County of Los Angeles vs. Dockweiler Cal. 94 Pac. (2nd) 794, 19390 I1 APFOINTMZNT AS LEGISLATIVE SECRETARY TO TYZ GOVEEFNOR

Fry: How did you become legislative secretary to Governor Warren? Vasey: I was in Sacramento attending a legislative session when I learned that Burdette Daniels, who was then the legislative secretary, was going to resign and come down here with his brother, Zarl Daniels. One of my jobs, you know, was to listen to all the ;rum6r88n~yTf~ndout -what was going on. The '-red '-red to me, "Well, who's had more experience than I've had in legislative work?" I thought I'd go over and see Bill Sweigert and ask them if they wanted a volunteer. Then I said, "Oh, I'm not interested. No," And I didn't even go over, A few weeks or months later, 9ick Graves, who then was representative of the League of California Cities, came over and said, "What would i'nduce you to go into the Goverr,oros office as .a secretary?" That was the first indication I had that I was even being considered, Fry: And what did you say? Vasey: I said, "Well, I've got a civil service job with the caunty and I don't know whether I'd be interested, but I'll talk to him," Graves said, "Don't talk to him unless you can go, because if Earl Warren gets his hooks on you, draft you and drag you right in,"

Fry: You can't say no. --

Vasey: I spent about the most miserable -..week~~ ~--I've ever 'Jasey: spent in my life trying to decide whether to give up a civil service position with a stake in retirement, chance for advancement, work that I liked, to go up to Sacramento. When I left the house in the morning, my wife said, "You're going to see the Governor today; what are you going to tell him?" I said, "I haven't the foggiest idea," I went to my office, which was over in this old county building that's ,being torn -soon, and I didn't do a thing for the county thatmorning, I just couldn't get my-mind on anything. I went - over to the Governor's office in the state building in a daze. I went into this waiting room, and I sat there, and I was miserable. I didn't know what I was going to tell the Governor. And I thought, "This is a fine thing, going to see the Governor and not know whether you're going to say yes or no." And while I was sitting there, if somebody had turned the light on in a dark room it wouldn't have been any more of an illuminating experience. Just as plain as could be it came to me, "You didn't apply for the job as a deputy City attorney. It was offered to you, and you took it. You didn't apply for the job of dtputy county counsel. It was offered to you, and you took it. do you stop now? Why don't you realize, when -_an opportunity's offered to you . . ." I was as caln when I went in to the Governor, I knew I was going to say "Yss," Well, take the Siblical story about Saul on the way to Damascus. It describes exactly the illurnin- ation that came to my mind, just like that, It's not historically interestm, but to my mind it's one of the most interesti~-rexperienceslove ever had. And I went in and I said, "I'd be delighted," And the Governor says, "I'm delighted. We'll have a good time together." - ,- Fry: Do ou remember when-- you-. started to work as lsgis5 ative secretary? Vasey: I went there in OctobeF of 1944. I don't remenber the date. You see, he-ecame Governor on January first,- 1943, and he had two legislative secretaries before mee 111 DUTIES OF A LEGISLATIVE S3CBSTABY

Fry: '&at were your duties in the Governor's office? Vasey: My position was, as you know, legislative secretary. I was the liaison man between the Governor and forty senators and eighty assemblymen. I had the responsibility of organizing, not necessarily of initiating, but at least of organizing the Governor's legislative program for each legislative session. I did that by interviewing the v~rious department heads, and of course, the Governor, and making suggestions to the Governor about items that he could include in his legislative prograa, Usually the legislative program would be set forth in his opening address to the Legislature. Of course Verne Scoggins had the duty of preparing the speech, but I would give him what the Governor had told me was going to be his legislative program after I had made my suggestions-. Then ,I had the responsibility of interpreting the Governor's position on pending legislation to members of the legislature, makin3 it possible for those members of the leqislature who wanted to see the Governor to do so as expeditiously as possible, shepherding his legislative prosrzrns through the legislature, and doing what I could to get them introduced and carried through. Of course, that didn't include the state budget, because the state budget was handled by the Department of Finance. I'm talking about legislation: highway program bills, health insurance, which you've undoubtedly heard about, Fry: Oh, I hope you can talk a lot about that. Vasey: [Laughter] That was quite a battle,

Fry: And it's a fascinating battle. Vasey: We didn't win that one, but we won the highwzy battle twice.

Fry: What do you mean by twice? I have to talk to Oliver Carter about that. Vasey: There were two different efforts on the highway, One, we got it started; and the other --

Fry: Vasey: Yes. It was later. Really, we got enough to support it and make it. So there were two separate legislative efforts and they were really difficult fights both tiaes.

Fry: You had some prstty powerful adversaries in the oil companies who were frightened at the prospects of taxing gasoline to pay for freeways. Vasey: Oh, we did. We had to make some concessions, We didn't get everything we wanted. Fry: what didn't you get? Vasey: Well, the utilities moved in, for one thing, and insisted that all the utility lines that were in state highways had always had revocable permits. And any time the state changed a state highway, aiit madto do was say to the telephone company or The gas company, "Move your lines, we're going to raise the grade here, or change it." Yell, the utilities lobby was strong enough to get a provision in this legislation that whenever the state wanted to change any of their lines for the construction of a freeway, the state had to pay for it,!And that was a concession we had to make. --_-\ Also, we had to make some concessions to the truckers on diesel fuel. -Who was the utility lobbyist then? Vasey: Well, it would depend on whether it was the telephone company or the gas company, or various water companies. It would not be any one person. -Same in-h-ii loBby 9-d then there were one or two cases, lncludlng certaln items In the state highway system, too ...one or two members of the legislature would say, \"I'11 give you -- - Fry: Do you mean the route of it. What -the .-- legislators say? Vasey: Well, they would say, "I would be very much interested in such-and-such a route being included in the state highway system."

Fry: "If you want my support -- "

Vas ey: Well, they didn't always make it quite that bzld! We had some good friends who were supporting the program for its merits. And we had some others who weren't sympathetic to it at all. And it was close enough that we couldn't have everythins we wanted.

Fry: I found soxe poetic justice last night at the La>-. Tines library.. I was going through the clippings for '47. !$asn't that when the first highway bill went through? Vasey: I couldn't tell you from memory. It sou~dsri,sht. Fry: At sny rate, there was this story about the bill gotting through finally, and in the szme quarter of the year there was an anti-smog bill signed, for southern California. It enabled a smog control board to be set up here. Vasey: Just for Los Angeles. Yes.

Fry: Well, that's poetic enough. [Laughter]

Vas ey : It's getting to be, now, fasQl_~gbleto belittle freeways and say they are a blight on the "ecologg," which is the important word nowadays, but wouldn't /- welbe_-- in a mess if we didn't have any? Fry: Yes. Besides, I guess the freeways you were Fry : putting in then were just the basic systems. There weren't any nonstop roads then between major population centers . Vasey: Well, there were none at all, you see. There was not a one. In California there wasn't a mile of it. And of course, we even had to get legislation through to pernit cutting off access to public highways. Up to that time the law said that you couldn't cut off the access. So everybody who had frontage on a city street, a county road, or a state highway, had rights to go on or off of that an.ywhere onto his property. We had to get all that law changed, as well as financing the state highways. As you say, the oil companies fought it, the truckers did too, and the utilities did, -untll they got their pound of flesh out of it. Fry : ?3id you maintain liaison with particular interest groups? I was the liaison with the counties and the cities in California, in other words, with the League of California Cities and the Supervisor's Association. The counties did not have an organization like the League of California Cities, which comprehended all officers. The counties had a Supervisors' Association, a Treasurers' Association, a Recordersn Association, and so on. And I was the liaison with all those county officers and with the League of California Cities.

Fry : You were on the receiving end of what you had been dishing out when you were a county counsel. IV PROCESSING BILLS

Vasey: Let me tell you how we handled the processing of bills. There were folders in our file for every bill that came down. And I would routinely send out to the attorney general and the 1,egislative counGl- a request for a summary of what the bill did. Then I would ask everybody I could think of that had any interest in the bill for recomenda- tions, I would send out a form request for a repcrt from them, Now that would include the lobbyists in Sacramento, Of course it would always include the League of Cities or the county officers' associations and anybody else that I thought wculd have any recommendations on a bill, It was my job, before the last day for the Governor to act on the bill, to prepare a report on it. Incidentally, that was a nightmare because I was always afraid, you know, that I'd miss the deadline. There were hundreds of bills, and the pressure -- it was a nightmare, I would prepare a summary, We had a regular form for it, and I'd try to gebl33oiled down to one page, but, of course, sometTms it was impossible. I would summarize the legislative counsel's and the attorney general's legal interprstation of what the bill would accomplish; summarize the recommendations for and against the bill, Some- times we would have thousands of letters on a bill, and sometimes we'd have none, Vasey: Then I also made my recommendations as to whether the Governor should sign or veto the billD Early in my time up there I learned that I had to make that recommendation. Once I had taken a bill in on which I'd said the arguments for the bill are so and so, the arguments against the bill are so and so, and stopped there. Ky procedure was always to take this pile of files in and s~acrossfrom the Governor while he was reading Ee cane to this one and he said, "Do you want me to sign this bill or don't you?" I said, "Governor, I can make a good argument for either side." Governor Warren said, "That's not what you're here for. You make a recommendation." Now, he didn't always follow my recommendation, but I was told in no uncertain terms that I was to make a recommendation, "yes" or "no, " on every bill that came down.

Fry: Row was your batting aver~ge? Vasey: Oh, I never kept statistics. It's easy to say it was very high because on nine-tenths of the bills it was obvious. It was less than ten percent of the bills that there was controversy about. So on that basis you build up a very high batting average. It's on the controversisl bills that you might lower your score. Now, the pressure toward the last six or eight weeks of the legislative session was such that I could not possibly make these sumaries all myself. So I had a great many attorneys in the various state departments who would come in and work with me at nights, after their stint in the daytime in their own departments. But I had to read everything that they did. If I didn' t , dictate it myself, I had to read it after it was typed up, and then I had to make my own recommendation comment at the end, on every bill, without except ion. I , 1 '!

Fry : Were these men matched up with bills that concern\,eaL . their respective departments? Vasey: Not necessarily. I would assign them, ant! if I could give them one in which I thought they had particular expertise I would do so, but I wasn't always able to do that. Now for instance, one of the men that helped me was Ed Nichols, who is now court commissio_rler here in this building. At that time he was administrative advisor for the Department of Mental Hygiene. Well, if it worked out so I c5ii13, I would sive him every bill in that department, because he would have particular background and expertise on it. Another man that worked for me quite a while was Ralph Klepps, who is now the administrative officer for the Judicial Council in the state building in San Framisco. And he, at that time, had the grand title of chief of the Division of Administrative Procedures in the Department of Professional and Vocational Standards, which is quite a title. Fry: Can you, just parenthetically, tell xe, whether an administrative advisor was the lagal counsel for a depart~ent? Vasey: It was a rather polite name to use fcr the attorney for the various de~rtnents. You lnentioned the law broadening the azharity-- of the attorney general; since the attorney gsneral was the advisor for all these various departments, the departxents couldn't - have a legal advisor, so they had an administrative--. advisor.

Fry : And usually he was a lawyer -- Vasey: It was surprising how often he was z lawyer.

Fry: And then he helped them with their legislative problems. Vasey: 3d Nichols did that for the Department of i(~e9tal Hygiene. If you're interested in mental hygiene, he would have a great deal of information about it, and background. Fry: Do you happen to have those summary reports on the bills in your personal files? Vasey: They were all in the files in Sacramento.

Fry: Those are closed.

Vas ey: I left a few days before the office was closed, but they destroyed an awful lot of files. Some archivist from the state archives went through and made some deterzination as to what was of historical significance, and what was not. And then some of that was sealed. I don' t remember for how long. I don't guess the time's run out yet. Aren't there other files that weren't sealed? Fry: I think by mistake they all got under seal.* Vasey: Oh, they did! Fry: Yes, even the public speeches files, and newspaper releases and things like this. Vasey: I've forgotten now, what was the period of tine it was sealed for?

Fry: Well, originally it was sealed for twenty years, -.--.but the first period has passed and the seal has --been extended. Vasey: Well, twenty years hasn't passed since he ceased to be governor, but some of the files are over twenty years old now. And I don't know what they destroyed and what they kept. I had no part in that. But we did have a file of every bill that came downcfrom the legislature, whether he signed it or vetoed it.

Fry: Well, that'll be very valuable some day, because I know it's just not available anywhere else.

Vas ey: Fiy name' s on everyone.- of them. Now I didn't --

-- - -Vubiic XToTmation files were released shortly after this interview. Fry: I wish we could flip through them and then talk about them on tape. Too bad we can't do that, Vasey: You'd have to take a year off!

Fry: I don't mean every one, but you know, you could select the important Ones, Vasey: But there would be a lot of stuff in there that I mdnlt remember. As a matter of fact, one of =.things that used to astonish me was when I'd take a bill into the Governor and make a report to him, He'd say, "Well now, wait a minute. Two years ago there was a bill like this, and you said so-and-so." And I'd say, "Did I?! And he would say, "Yes." And I would go back and look in the files, and sure -Xi55Ggh, I had. r---. Fry: I 've heard he remembered people' s .---ges . He had an incredible memory. Did he also remember points and issues, and things like that? Vasey: Yes, but on people's names, he was absolutely fantastic. He was unbelievable. When he appointed Frank Charvatt of Long Beach to the Long Beach municipal court, he had never met Frank. He didn't know him. I knew him, and at a meeting of the gtate bar in the Biltmore Hotel down here, Frank came to me and said, "I would sure like to have you introduce me to the Governor, so I can thaAnk him." So we deliberately waited until the line had passed away so we could have a few minutes. As we walked sup, Frank said to me, "Now you tell him that I'm the man he appointed a few months ago to the municipal court in Long Beach." I didn't say anything to Frank but I made up my mind I was going to show Frank something. So I just went up and said, "Governor, I want you to meet Frank Charvatt. " Frank started to say, "Well, I'm the man you -- " The Governor said, "Oh yes, I remember you. I appointed you to the Wnicipal Cmrt in Long Beach.

You were strongly recommended by -0" and he named off about five people. Frank stood there with his mouth open. I knew the Governor could do it, but Frank di&"€T- Fry: This really was pretty consistent behavior on his part?

Vasey: Oh, yes. He absolutely astonished me with his memory for names.

Fry: So he didn't have any trouble remembering legislators, I guess. Vasey: Oh, he could remember legislators'names in fine shape.

Fry: But you did have the usual card file in your office of legislators and also of people all over the state? Vasey: He had a fantastic card file of people all over the state that he'd ever had contact with. And of course his Christmas card list was fantastic. They spent hours addressing those things. V OTHER

Fry : Did you have any responsibilities with regard to getting out publicity before a bill was signed? Vasey: Not publicity, I would call the legislators and that kind of thing, but publicity, press relations or anything like that always went to Verne Scoggins. Scoggins also had the responsibility of the press dinner. During the regular session the Governor would put on a dinner for the press and the members of the Legislature at the mansion. I had nothing to do with the press dinner, but I had a great deal to do with the legislative dinner. It was a very pleasant assignment -- getting the invitations out and making arrangements. We had to split it, because we couldn't take them all at once, so it took two times for the assembly and one dinner for the senate, I would try and see that it was equally divided, and that the invitations were there, and find out how many were coming so I could tell Mrs. Warren. Then I'd always be there to do whatever I could to help things aiong, for instance, giving Mrs, Warren the names of the ile~islatorsas-they came in. And incidentally, I made a mistake once, and it was rather embarrassing, I stood by at the door as they came in, I stood just behind her as unobtrusively as possible, and as I saw the legislators coming up, I'd give the names, Once I gave the wrong name, and she used it, and it didn't go over very well. Vas ey : -She was a very gracious lady, but she did let me know that that was embarrassing to her, and it was. Fry: Well, we can't all have elephant memories like Earl Warren. [Laughter] I was going to ask you about Oliver Carter. Was he one of the important men to carry the ball on highway legislation? Vasey: He was one of the senators who was in on the matter. He had more to do with it than a good many other sGia3ZFs. Fry: Who else worked on the highway legislation? Vasey: Of course, we had to work with Randolph Collier extensively, because he was the chairman of the committee. Vasey: I had a great number of dealings with Oliver Carter on many bills. Some of them :maybe-were bill s - that he was interested in, and not the Governor, and vice versa. Now, Senator deLap,, from Contra Costa County, was one of the Governor's main standbys in the senate. Fry: Do you know if he's still around? Vasey: I do not know. He would not be a young man now,

Fry: Do you mean he carried the ball for legislgtion? Vasey: He was very helpful to the Governor, and he helped in many of our bills. He was a good friend of the Governor.

Fry : How was he a good friend? Was he one of his football buddies, or anything like that? He would always support the Governor in all his .aampaig~s,..-I. I think that his natural bent was along the same line as the Governor's: in other words he was a moderate, or a moderate-liberal, or in that range where the Governor was. Vasey: And then, of course, in the assembly, one of the Governor's best friends was A1 Wollenberg, who is now a federal judge in San Francisco. His father was director of Social Welfare.

\ Fry: ~ n was donee out with a bit of initiative legislation.* Now how did you let that pass? aught er] VaS: didn't control the Legislatureo I Just tried ------to influence them a little now and then. It's kind of like my son going down the Grand Canyon on a raft: you can't control things but you may lend a little help in guiding the boat down; but you can't control it.

Fry: That's a marvelous metaphor. I bet that's just the way you felt too!

Vasey: I don't think it would be desirable if the gmernor could control the Legislature.

Fry: No, of course it wouldn't. Vasey: I think the legislature should be independent. Fry: Well, of course that episode with welfare only lasted for just a little while. Vasey: Yes, that was when Myrtle Williams was named in the amendment. That was not a happy tine for us, while she was up there.

Fry: When did you notice right-wing opposition coning in? Vasey: Before I ever went to Sacramento, during the

"Charles Wollenberg was appointed Director of the State Department of Social Welfare by Governor Warren. In November, 1948, an initiative propo- sisition, #4, appeared on the ballot, and was approved by the voters. Among other matters, Proposition #4 specifically named Myrtle Williams as head of the Social Welfare Department. Vasey: Governor's first campiign, there was some unhappiness on the right. And of course, the right got more unhappy and more unhappy as time went along; the health insurance bill was a big factor in that unhappiness.

Fry: Well, by 1950 or '51 there was a definite organized effort by the Thomas Werdel faction to put Warren out of the governorship. I wondered if -- Vasey: Their only trouble was, they never had anyplace else to go.

Fry: Well, if they managed to get more people in the legislature, they could have given you some problems on bills. Did they gain more strength in the lagislature as time went on?

Vasey: No, not to an appreciable extent5 There might have been a little fluctuation>ut they were not a major factor. The right wing was more vocal and more difficult to deal with as a political factor outside the Legislature than it was in the membership of the Legislature itself. But in those days, the Governor always had a lot of Democratic support, both in the lagislature and in the electorate; witness the time he took the Democratic nomination as well as the Republican.

Fry: You were a Republican, weren't you? Vasey: Yes. Sweigert was a Democrat, but I was always a Republican.

Fry: Which didn't really mean too much, I've discovered, Vasey: Warren didn't even ask me.

Fry: He didn't? Books on California government, describing the operation and effects of the,crossfiling system, say that partisanship lined up along special interest lines because party lines had become quite weak. Nowadays, by contmst, we do get votes massing roughly on Republican or Demo- cratic lines. Vasey: Well, as witness the tax bill just this last week, when all the Republicans voted one way and the Democrats didn't vote at all. Nothing like that ever happened while we were there.

Fry : Do you think it could have happened? Or were allegiances based on something else besides party, perhaps on interest groups such as oil, attitudes about medicine, and -- Vasey: Let me say that the only time that I can remember that they 1-d on a straight party line was in organizing- houses -- electing the speaker, electing the President pro tem of the senate, etc. Then they voted on a straight party line, but that was the exception, not the rule. Fry: Yes. I guess I thought that was a little curiousp that we organized our Legislature that way when any legislator could run on both party tickets. Vasey: That's the way Congress is organized, of courser- And even in those days --

Fry: I know, but in Congress, the members really run on a party platform. The members in our Legislature didn't necessarily get their campaign money from their party. They were supported from sources that had little to do with party lines. You've described your position to me as the umpire in Warrenr s office, because you were liaison man. You were the one who had to screen the people who wanted to come in and see Earl Warren. There must have been fantastic numbers of people who always wanted appointments with him; sooneror-later- it looks like yo&-xdd -almost be near_ly-.every@om's enemy. -1 Vasey: It's a fine place to make enemies, I would say, Yes. I congratulate myself that I got away without making too many.

Fry r Did you have any system in deciding who got to talk to him about certain bills?

Vasey: Well, I tried to get every legislator in that Vas ey: wanted to. It mightme a few days to do it, but I never deliberately'med to keep anybody out unless they were overdoing it, or coming in too often. In other words, I'd give everybody an audience that wanted one. I wasn't always successful, but I didn't just deliberately say, "Well the sheep can go here, and the goats can go there."

Fry : Did you keep the calendar for this, or did you deal with the calendar people -- Vasey: Oh no. I would deal wit-~ girl who was working under Helen MacGregorls -vision as to the Governor's calendar. And I would go in and I would usually have to consult with the Governor too, but sometimes just with the girl. Eut if it was somebody I had some doubt about, I would consult with the Governor and say, "So and so wants to see you." I know the greatest surprise I had was when Arthur H. Samish wanted to see the Governor. I didn't think the Governor would see Arthur Samish, but he did.

Fry : O~~YOUdidn't get to sit in on that, did you? I =mer what he wanted to see him about. Vasey: I wasn't there. But I did know about the appointment being set up. I only remember once that Samish ever came in to see the Governor,-just onceo

Fry: You wouldn't remember when that was, would you?

Vasey: No. And you mentioned the difficulties that we had with Sam Collins. We had some difficulties with another dpeaker before him. That was Charlie Lyons. You know, Charlie Lyons didn't see eye to eye with the Governor, particularly in gambling bills. But on many things he didn't see eye to eye with the Governor.

Fry: Did you have to deal directly with things like getting a bill assigned to the right commmee- or anything like this? Vasey: No. That was internal activities of the Legisla- ture, and we had nothing to do with that. If I'd tried to interfere with that, I would have been thrown out unceremoniously.

Fry : Oh. I thought some of the lobbyists sometimes managed -- Vasey: I think maybe they do. But the Legislature- -was (I shouldn't say what it is now) somewhat jealous of its prerogatives, you know, For instance, if I came into the assembly chamber, I never stayed very long because I never wanted to be accused of spying on the Legislature. I never wanted to be accused of lobbyieon the floor of the 4ssembly, _ or anythin,o2-thEkind. And the same was true of the Senate, There's a feeling that "Xe are the legislative, and that's the executive,branch of government, and we deal=*e1re supposed to, but we're not being pushed amnd by the governor." And that's all right. I didn't object to thato I thought that was a perfectly legitimate feeling. I respected it. So I was careful to observe that. I would drop in. Occasionally I had to. I had to see the clerk of the assembly or maybe some member would send for me and ask for some information. I would go over, but I left as soon as I could. Fry: Well, then, you'd just have to leave this to the different heads of committees where you had a friend. Vasey: Yes, And .if the committee chairman wasn't friendly, I would talk to some other member of the committee that would .be friendly, and let then know what the Governor was advocating. And frequently the members would come and ask me what the Governor's viewpoint was, because often the Governor's program was such that they couldn't all get in every time they wanted to, you know. And then he might be out of town for a day or two or three. I had to interpret the Governor's viewpoint on things, Sometimes I hoped that I was interpreting correctly, Fry: Well, you never did have any evidence to the contrary, did you? Vasey: Well, what I mean is, often I would know very definitely. The Governor would have talked either to the press in my presence (I attended all the press conferences just to get the Governor's viewpoint and thinking on things) or he would talk .tope,------or I would ask htm. But sometimes something \came up that I had not talked to the Governor about, and sometimes I had to answer before I could talk to the Gov.ernor. And on those occasions I just had to rely upon my general background on his thinking and hope that I would be correct.

Fry: Did you go on any of Earl Warren's campaigns with him? Vasey: No. I was usually the one who was kept in Sacramento to mind the store. My assignment, almost always, was to be in charge of the Governor's office in Sacramento when he went on one of thesewpaign/-- tours. I didn't travel with him, eiaer campaigning or otherwise, except on special occasions. Now, sometimes when he came to southern California, I came with him, because I was the only secretary in ,the office from Southern California. Then, as you know, he opened the office here (in L.A.), usually during the month of August. He stayed out at the Uplifter's ranch, and I was nearly always the one in charge of the office here. It was in Santa Monica. I never went out there, because I always was in the office in Los Angeles, because nobody else wanted to come to Southern California, and I coveted the chance to come down here. Fry: Did you get involved in the successful legislative efforts to reorganize the a.ttorney general' s office in 19361 Vasey: In '36, no.

Fry: Sometimes local political groups get involved in such issues. Vasey: My first legislative session was '39. In other words, it was the first session when'culbert Olson was governor. Fry: Some of the county counsels were active in that campaign to give the ttorney eneral more power. Vasey: I remember, but I had nothing to do with it. VI: LOBBIES AND LEGISLATION

Fry : What would you say was the largest and most powerful lobby in the legislature that you had to deal with?

Vasey r Well, having been through the health insurance fight, I would say the medical lobby was very powerful; and the teacher's lobby was very powerful. And then of course, the labor lobby was ce3Eainly-- not impotent, by any manner of means. They carried quite a clout.

Fry : When you say labor lobby, do you mean Cornelius Haggerty? Y~S? Incidentally, he is a charming gentleman Vasey: ------__- __._ .whom I liked veryryrymucC~. ------Fry : I met him in Washington. Vasey: I don't know how he is now, but I used to enjoy very muchtmy dealings with him. I still liked him whether we were on the same side or opposite sides.

Fry : Kaybe you can give me some advice on what to discuss with Mr. Haggerty next time I see him. We have a whole legislative period, starting from 1943 to cover. Wasn't there a time around '46 or '47 where he and Warren were on opposite sides of the "Hot Cargo" bill, or the jurisdictional strike legislation? Vasey: There were individual issues on which they didn't see eye to eye, but I don't think you could ever say there was a period when they were antagonistic Vasey : to each other. Warren didn't put the labor ring in his nose and let labor lead him around, but he was on a very friendly basis with organized labor,

Fry: Were those two the only controversies between--- - them, or were there some that I donet knowlabout?- Vasey: Here's one place where my memory won't bring it up right now, But there were just indivZua1 issues, not general disagreements. 2_

Fry: He and Haggerty stayed on pretty good terms?

Vasey : Oh, I think so. As far as I know, Fry: Did he have Haggerty's general support in elections? Vasey: I think you could say yes.

Fry t Okay, Because if something is sensitive, I need to know It before I pop the question to hr. Baggerty, Vasey: Well, if he's the same as he used to be, he would be very frank about it.

Fry : He seems to be very fond of Earl Warren.

Vasey : Oh, I felt he was. Then Ernest Webb, in the Department of Industrial Relations, he is a prominent labor man yet. He was also in the Brown administration. He was another labor man that Warren appointed to office. You see, Xaggerty

never didawork for the GoVernor. I mean,--he was - always with labor, but gel55 was in the bdministration.. I know him very well, I've seen him a few times recently. He was very friendly and he was in the Governor's cabinet.

Frv~ mat about the CIO wing s_.la_bar? . - . .- Vasey: They were not as "close to the throne" shall we say? You understand what I mean when I say it that way? They were not nearly as close although they had the Governor's ear any time. Fry: Well, the things they printed at the time, looked like they were kind of antagonistic. Vasey: Oh, they were not nearly as close. No, they were critical. They were much more to the left than the A.F. of L. was in those days. Inasmuch as they were rivals of the A.F. of L. instead of--- being combined as they are now (like the football leames for instance*" ?they couldn't "me too" every-g eoLsSTd.

Fry : That 's right. Vasey: They had to have issues.

Fry : You were listing the lobbies and you mentioned medical, teachers, and labor as some of the more powerful ones, Do you know anybody--_ to __suggest that we could talk to who represents the-eachers' lobby? -\ ______------Vasey : The lobbyist for what was then called ATOu, ---- which was the Affiliated Teachers of LO~Angeles, was Ray Zberhart, who is now dead. (Incidentally, Bay Eberhart's the father of Mrs, Evelle Younger and Judge Zeigler of the Superior Court here. Those were his two daughters.)

Fry: Did we have California Teachers Association then?

Vasey : Yes, we had CTA. And I can just see the man who was lobbyist. His name is Arthur Cory,

Fry : Now, on the medical lobby, Whitaker and Eaxter ran a lot of campaigns.

- Vasey: They conductedcampaigns,/bu~w~eadtha. -- lobbyist in Sacramento. Now he didn't register as lobbyist for the California Xedical Association; he registered as lobbyist for the "Public Health League," but it was another name for the California Medical Association. I don't have any idea where he is now, but he was always th~reTKr-that,*------, - _ _ - - Then of course there were many powerful lobbies up there that we didn't meet as often

*In 1971, Mr. Bead was still director of the League's - - San Francisco office, . . --- Vasey: as that. The truckers had a powerful lobby. Most of the professions did too, you know. The osteopaths had a lobby up there, for instance. In the medical fight, the osteopaths were on our side, and the medical doctors were against us. Fry: I noticed that Warren signed a bill removing the requirement/ ]that osteopaths be listed as osteopathic physicians.- In other words they could be listed just as plain medical doctors. .--- Vasey: They didn't have to say ,ma ' Fry: I wondered if that bill was an indication that Warren was a friend of the osteopaths' lobby. Vasey: They supported him in the health insurance fight, which of course made him feel very kindly to them. Their lobbyist was not an osteopath. And he is very much alive. He's retired now, but he would be the person to talk to.

Fry : Wasn't Barbara Armstrong in on the health legislation?

Vasey : Yes. She was up there in Sacramento occasionally. Xany people were involved to a greater or lesser extent. Barbara Armstrong from the University who wrote the book in family law in California'Yye's; - I met her up there in Sacramento in that co-niction, and of course there were all kinds of people that we dealt with in that area.

-. ---. ...--..- - -- .. ------0 have a separate bill on health Fry: __-.---- .. _ ~.~.._. ___- _ ~ - ... legislation? Vasey: I have a hazy recollection that they did.

Fry: Well, we have amassed a J3-tof material on health legislation. - Vasey: It's been seventeen years since I've been down here, and that was long before I left Sacramento, so the details are hard to remember.

Fry: And not only that, but Warren kept trying, didn't he? In every session? Vasey: Yes. But of course that one session was the big one.

Fry: Did it ever get out of committee again? Vasey: No, I don't think it ever did.

Fry: Were you surprised at the outcome? Vasey: Of that health bill fight? Not as soon as the doctors refused to support it. Of course Warren went down and talked to the doctors about it before he ever introduced it. And during the depression, the doctors themselves introduced such a bill. But then, you see, when the Governor introduced it there was no depression on anymore. The doctors weren't interested anymore.

Fry : Well, when he went down and talked to them, did they sound like they were going to back it?

Vasey : No, they just said they would take it under sub- mission and let us know. I attended that luncheon meeting in San Francisco with him. They didn't commit themselves then. They discussed it after we left. Fry: Who were the doctors in that meeting? -- Vasey: Oh, heavens, I don't know. 'T'ere~~ave been thirty-f ive men there, none of whom T-T+ver -3et before nor ever saw again, probably. They were the executive council. Fry : For CKA, right? I was wondering if you had anything to do with lobbying legislation, the Collier bill or the Sherwin bill? Vasey: Yes, the Governor was interested in lobbying legislation, and I remember I had some work to do in preparing it, and ln encouraging its passage through the legislature.

Fry: Yes. One of the bills, especially, Warren liked, but then part of it got amended. It was the Sherwin bill. Vaseg: I don't remember the details now, but I do remember Vasey: that he didn't get everything he wanted. Well, it put him in a position of trying to dictate to the legislature something that they thought was their business, not the governor's business. He was interested in the lobbying bills. Be was interested in some anti-gambling bills, too, You remember his background as attorney general and the ruckus with the gambling ships? Well, Governor Warren sponsored the bill that finally went through the legislature making mere possession of slot machines an offense.TEefor5-that it was legal to possess a slot machine, but illegal to use it for gambling. And then, before my time up there, he organized the Adult Authority and made very extensive changes in the administration of state prisons. VII RENI NISCING ABOUT PEOPLE AROUND GOVERNOR SdARREN

Vasey: Judge Wollenberg was very much involved in trying to get the health legislation passed,

Fry : Yes, we are about to interview him on the health insurance bills.

Vasey : That should be a very interesting experience. He's a very personable, very interesting individual. I like him very much.

Fry : Judge Wollenberg also told me to be sure to come and see you.

Vas ey : Oh. Yes, we always got along fine together. I liked him and I hope he liked me. I think he did. Of course he was one of the closest to the Governor in the assembly. I mean, he and the Governor were very friendly, and he supported the Governor qnd the Governor supported him regxlarly. Fry: But he wasn't there after about '47 or so.

------. - --- - Vasey : No But you see, /he_carried the GovVernorrr8s-bud~et as dhairman of the Assembly Ways and Means Committee. And then he was succeeded by Karvin Sherwin from Alameda County, who later had misfortunes. You remember he was Superior Court j~dgeand then had income tax problems. I could not have been more surprised. I still can't understand it.

Fry : I don't understand why Warren appointed Wollenberg Fry : to the j'udiciary. Didn't he need him in the assembly?

Vasey : Yes. He kind of pulled my right hand man right out from under me.

Fry : Do you know who carried the Governor's bills in the assembly after Wollenberg became a judge. Vasey: Well, Plarvin Sherwin carried the Governoros budget bill, which meant he was the chairman of the Ways and Neans Committee of the assembly. You see, traditionally at that time, (I don't know what it is now) the only consultation with the governor as to committee chairmen was as to the chairman of Ways and Means, because. ---he had- to car=-the Governor' s budget bill. - &d-.s~.bskk~~allanbwand Marvin Sherwin were appointed chairman of Ways and Means with the Governor's blessing. And all the time that Sherwin was an assemblyman, I would have trusted him with anything. Well, as a matter of fact, even when he was judge, we'd go to judges1 conference meetings once a year, and my wife and I nearly always made it a point to have dinner with the Sherwins' at least once during the meetings. That's the reason I say I couldn't have been more astonished, when he was prosecuted for income tax evasion.-It just -- Fry : Eaybe he looked at -it-as a game, you know. Vasey : It was so contrary to any conception I had of him, that.1 just couldn't believe it. I wouldn't have been any more surprised if Wollenberg had been prosecuted.

Fry : And that's a pretty funny idea! Warren had a lot of problems with Sam Collins, and I suppose some of those problems also fell in your lap. Vasey: Oh, yes. I knew some of those problems, because that was in my department, Sam Collins was from Orange county, and conservative. He properly represented his district, but his district didn't Vasey: see eye to eye with the Governor. But I think he reflected his district.

Fry : Well, what kind of a man was he? Was he obstreperous?

Vasey: Well, from m~ viewpoint he was obstreperous, but I don't know whether you'd say he was or not. He approached things sometimes in a sort of a joking manner. Some of the things he did I thought he was doing them because he felt it was fun. It's kind of fun sometimes to poke a stick in the spokes of a wheel, and things like that, you kncw. --_ Fry : When they were hearing the health'insu-ce bill;di&'t €Ee5Te5rF~naCo~te8 he wBof e7 - -

Vasey: They did once.

Fry : And wasn't it Sam Collins who brought up the fact that one of your main advisors was a veterinarian? Vasey: Yes. We knew that. That's the man we brought from back east, from Ohio or someplace.

Fry : He was from Piichigan. Vasey: Dr. Nathan Sinai. He was supposed to be the expert, and had done a tremendous study on it. He would have been unimpeachable as a source if he hadn't had that veterinarian's degree; but he had the veterinarian's degree.

Fry : Did you think that really affected the progress of the legislation in the committee? Vasey: I doubt it

Fry : That's becoming an apocryphal story, that Collins' revelation of his veterinarian's degree chansed everything. Vasey: But it was no surprise to us. We knew about the whole thing before it ever came, but he was the authority. Fry : He was a very good public health authority at that time and quite respected. Vasey: Yes. He was very well respected and he certainly had a fund of information and knew his stuff; and he was very articulate. But, he just had one too many degrees, If he hadn't had that degree, he would have been nuch more effective, I think. Or atzeast he would not have been subject to the ridicule that Sam Collins put upon him. But that was discussed at great length in our office, before he was ever put before this committee.

Fry: Was the League of California Cities particularly powerful at that time? Vasey: Yes. They had very considerable influence on matters affecting cities. And the County Supervisors' Association, I would say,- was almost on a par with them, And of course, --having come from both a city and a county background, I had some interest in the views of both of them.

Fry: You probably knew most of those people, too. Vasey: Oh yes. I knew, of course, all the supervisors from Los Angeles, and many others from southern California. I attended many mestings of the Supmisors' Association as a deputy county counsel, paF€Tcularly after I went to the Legislature, I have appeared on their program at the end of legislative sessions, before I was in the governor's office, giving a summary of legislation affecting counties. Now, we used to divide that up, Dick Chamberlain, who was later Superior Court judge in Alameda County, represented the district attorney of Alamemounty, and he usually handled most of the criminal law bills affecting counties; and then I handled most of them that had to do with the civil side. And then after Dick Chamberlain, I worked with Frank Coakley, who became district attorney of Alameda County later, and who, incidentally, would be a valuable man for you to talk to. Fry: We had just one session with him so far.

Vasey : Oh, I worked with Frank very much on the same basis as I had before Tht with Dick Chamberlain. If they had something inthe civil field, they would come to me and I would work with them. If I had something in the criminal field, I would always go to them and they would help me out. Fry: Is there anything special, any particular legislation, that I should ask Chamberlain or Coakley about?

Vasey : They would have a very good background in any bills in the field of criminal law that were passed during this time probably. They sponsored many of them. Fry: Well, Coakley wasn't doing this when you were in the governor's office? Vasey: I think he probably had at least one-or tmsessions in Sacramento, before he pcame the distric_t attorney himself in Alameda County. My only objection to Frank Coakley was that he worked too hard. I'd go sound asleep and at 2:00 in the morning he'd call me up and say, "Well now, what do you think about this?" He's one of the hardest working fellows.

Fry : I'm glad you warned us! We will be sure and set our sesiSiUns in the morning? --. ._ Vasey: I don't know:xboXhis habits now that he's older. I don't knowFbX3e was a hard worker, and conscientious. Gee, he was conscientious. Of course he's a brother of Tom Coakley, who is now on the Court of Appeals in Sacramento.

At that time Tom Coakley was in private practice in San Francisco, but he was a great supporter of the Governor's, and he was consulted on many things. And then the Governor appointed him, you see, as Superior Court judge in Kariposa County, when Andy Schottky was advanced from Superior Court d udge to the Court of Appeals. &nd--- now, Coakley's on the Court of Appeals. Fry : Had he also been in the Governor's office? Vasey: He was one of the Governor's advisors and close friends, but he was not on the payroll.

Fry : What would he have been an advisor about? General matters or special things?

Vasey : I have participated with him in connection with judicial appointments in San Francisco, that type of thing. And then there was Jesse Steinhart, who was a great confidant of the Governor. I suppose he's dead now. He would be an awfully old man if he alisn Fry : Yes, he is dead. Did Steinhart also-___ participate in conferences and appointments? -----__CZ Vasey: Yes. I've sat in on conferences and appoint=ntts when he was there. b

Fry : Well, are you telling me that their participation was unusually significant? I guess there were hundreds of people that Warren got advice from on appointments.

Vasey : Any governor has to certain people on whom he can rely for informawn.

Fry : And they actually checked it out and reported to him? Vasey: Oh yes. I think they were consulted on most of the judicial appointments, and maybe appointments of other people. But you see, I didn't handle the appointments as such. Now, on appointments in southern California, particularly in Los hgeles, often the Governor would ask me something, but- ,In the office 'it was Jim Welsh. Have you talkeZ -- wmJim Welsh? Last I knew he was Kunicipal Court Jddge in San Francisco. He was in charge of appointments; that is, he had charge of keeping all the files and records on prospects for appointment to judiciary, to fair boards, what have you. And he had the primary responsibility for that, but I Vasey: would be consulted frequently, particularly in Los Angeles County, because I was the only one from gouthern California. So, often something would come up about people I knew down there. Fry.: Did men like Steinhart and Tom Coakley ever come in as advisors on legislation? Vasey: Not to me. Whether '%s- overn nor talked to them or not, I don't know, bmdidn't talk with them about anything. Fry: Well, you probably would have been in on any conferences. Vasey: I think I would have. I was in on conferences on appointments in San Francisco -- not regularly; it just happened that I was down there with the Governor a time or two in Jesse Steinhart's office. I've seen Coakley in Sacramento occasionalLy.

In southern California, do you have Frank Belcher's name? Frank Belcher is an attorney here in L.A. who was friendly with the Governor and was frequently consulted on appointments. Earl Daniels is gone; and Burdette Daniels is gone.

Fry: Were they brothers? Vasey: Yes. They were men that the Governor had confidence in, that he talked to down here.

Fry : About appointments? These appointments, I guess, were something that were always with you. A constant process. Vasey: Oh yes. You had vacancies in the judiciary going on all the time. And then of course the number of judges in the counties were increasing. For instance, when I came on the court down here in Los Angeles there were eighteen at that time. Now there's a bill in the legislature to increase the number of judges in this county by7wenty- seven., Now just imagine the job it's s- to be if that bill passes. Reagan's going to have to dig up twenty-seven men. -- Fryl-----wF=,that will be a happy job, with elections -ng -ng up! Vasey: It wasn't original with Warren, but he frequently said that every time you make an appointment you make a hundred enemies and one ingrate. I think there's something to that!

Fry: I noticed in flipping through the L.A. Times files that from tine to time the number of judges -- city judges in L.A. and Superior Court judges -- were increased; but once when they wanted to increase it by quite a few, Warren vetoed the bill. Vasey: That was municipal c'ourts. There was a bill deter- mining the number of judges in each of the municipal court districts in Los Angeles County, and it was padded a little bit. There were some political friends of the supervisors and so forth. It was padded for their particular benefit. And the Governor vetoed that one. Later a bill withx- lesser number was passed, which he signed. ---

Fry : I thought maybe that might have been the cause, bu4 of course those things aren't explained in the newspaper. Vasey: In connection with the number of judges needed, he always relied very heavily on the Judicial Council and their statistics. The Judicial Council very largely keeps very detailed statistics on dispositions per judge, filings and all that type of thing. You Faxi compare them all over the state. On any b-li that came down increasing the number of judges, either municipal or superior court, why I always got a recommendation from the Judicial Council. For instance on the bill now, in this county, the bill now reads twenty-seven additional judges. The Judicial Council gave a figure of twenty-one. Now, what effect that'll have I don't know. Eut that's the situation. Our court feels that we need more than twenty-seven." So twenty-seven is in between

*The legislature subsequently passed this bill providing for 15 new judges. Vaseyr the Judicial ~oun~tland what this court feels. Of course that had nothing to do with what you're working on, but that's just an illustration.

Fry: Going back to this bill you and I were talking about, in which the municipal judges were to be increased, it would be tempting for the governor to go ahead and sign it because it would give him some more people to appoint. Vasey: Not Earl Warren. Ze wouldn't be tempted by that. It's true that many governors would be, but I don't think that would tempt Earl Warren a bit. XI11 CHIEl? JUSTICE WARREN : WPPORTIONXZNT AND CRIMINAL LAW

Fry: You were aware of Warren's thinking. Do you think he changed when he got to X~upreme___. Court? Vasey: Do you really want me to answer that question? On the record?

Fry: Well, if you don't mind. This is the big question about %rl Warren. There are three theories, you know. One is thab yes, he changed drastically. And then there's one that he was like this all along, really, but he never did have a chance to show it until he got to the Supreme Court. And then there's one of the gradual growth theory, where he just eventually evolved. Vasey: There arestwo fields in which I did not anticipate the position he would take on the Court any more than I think Eisenhower anticipated some of the things he did on the Court. One is in the field of criminal law, and the other's in the field of reapportionment.

Fry: I can see why you feel that on reapportionment, because this was exactly opposite to what he was saying when he was governor.

Vasey: I have argued it with him on more than one occasion, saying that I'm from Los Angeles County and I am a second rate citizen in the state of California. It takes 356 of me to equal one voter in Alpine County, Vasey: and I don't like it. He said, "That's the finest thing in the state of California. We need it." I'm not letting any secrets out, because there are public speeches that you've read. But I've argued that very point with him.

Fry r Well, now, you see? Your arguments finally sank in. You were really surprised about that? [Laughter]

Vas ey: Yes.

Fry 1 And then in criminal law, you're referring -- Well, I'm not asking you to talk about specific cases on the Supreme Court if you feel it is improper. I just wonder if -- since you've already placed him as a "liberal" governor, if in general you don't feel that there was too much -- Vasey: His liberalism was more perhaps in some other fields than in the field of criminal law. He still was a former attorney general and a former district attorney in some respects.

Fry: When he was governor? Vas ey: Yes. But I don't think anybody's ever said that about him as Chief Justice. . Fry: Is there any legislation that you remember when he was governor on criminal law? Vasey: Yes. One that stands out in my mind very definitely. That was one that Iiayor Yorty, as an assemblyman, got through, that revised the definition of legal insanity. You probably are familiar with that. In fact that's quite a controversial thing in the whole criminal law: the so-called aughton on Rule that we follow in California as to what is criminal. insanity. And Yorty got a bil1,through to change that to what seemed to me more in keeping with modern psychological thought. And the Governor vetoed it. And there was one that I lost, because I recommended he sign it.

Fry: And Yorty's bill would have loosened up the definition? Vasey: It would have changed it. You see, the M'Naughton &Ile is that the party knows the difference between right and wrong and some other elements, And this Yorty bill was to make it to come more within the concept of uncontrollable impulse and that type of thing. I've forgotten the exact wording of it, but it was along that line. I recommended that the Governor sign the thing despite the fact that the District Attorneys Association asked him to veto it. And he vetoed it. Now, I would have to go into the library to find the exact year and what; the bill did. You may have it. That has been always in my mind as an example of the difference=ween him as governor and his position on the Supreme Court. Of course, the Court did not decide this exact question, but it reflects generally his approach to criminal law. You see, on a bill like that, I would always get the recommendation of the DiXmict Attorneys' Association, because that affecw the prosecution of felony cases, And in this case they asked him to veto it, and he did. And the fact that Yorty was the author of it has always been additionally interesting to me. Fry: Well, was Yorty a conservative Democrat then? Vasey: I just don't know how you label Yorty. Then or now.

Fry: But he wasn't too different?

Vasey : Shall we say he was 'pllyunpredictable then and now. -

Fry: He's predictable now, what do you mean? You know he's going to run in every election1 [~aughter] Well, this has been very pleasant, and I hope I've been of some assistance to you.

Fry : Oh, you certainly have. I had no idea the interview would be this good. (Interview 2 - October 21, 1970)

IX SUPPLEMENTARY REMABKS ON LEGISLATION AND THZ GOVERNOR' S OFF1 CE

You mentioned in the earlier interview that Dick Graves asked you about joining the Governor's staff. What was Graves' role, and the League of California Cities', in the development of Warren's legislative program? -the League, of course, was made up of representatives of all the big cities, and some of the smaller ones, too, working on things the cities were interested in. They provided a lot of information and statistics. In working on the legislative session, we often asked their help.

Norris : As the executive, was Dick Graves' office in Sacramento?

Vasey : I don't know where the office was. Graves was up in Sacramento the whole tirne during every legislative session. Now they-ve an office in Los Angeles, I believe. And there's' one in Berkeley.

Vasey : I haven't seen him in years. Don't even know where he is.

Morris : 9e lives here, in Be1 Air.

Vasey : Does he! I'd like to see him. Didn't he go back east a while ago?

Morris : Yes, he was working on urban redevelopment in the Philadelphia area. Vasey: Is he still working?

Morris : Oh, yes. I talked with him yesterday. He was on his way to San Francisco for some meetings. He and Warren were very close, weren't they? Vasey: Yes.

Morris : And then Graves also ran for governor. Vasey: 'Yes, he did. Korris: How did that come about? Vasey: I donqt really recall. He ran as a Democrat.

Korri s : Yes, in 1954, against Goodwin Knight. We will be interviewing him, and will hope to get the rest of the story. There was also a Supervisors' Association you worked with. Do you remember the name of their executive? Vasey: Not at the moment.

Morris : How did they relate to your office? Vasey: Well, there was the Supervisors' Association and other county officers' groups, Sometimes, of course, the supervisors and the cities were on opposite sides of issues, when it came to sharing of state-funds,which level of government was going to get how much. And then, some cities and counties had their own representatives in Sacramento, in addition to the League. I remember Bill Neal was the city of Los Angeles representative, and Richard Chamberlain and Frank Coakley whoa I mentioned before.

Morris : How did these types of groups differ from what might be called the corporate lobbies? Vasey: Primarily, the corporate ones have more money. We, speaking of when I was a county representative in Sacramento, saw our work as being for the benefit of all the people. Vasey: We made it a point to stay aloof from the industry groups. Norris: There was a lot of concern about lobbying during Warren's administration, wasn't there? Vasey: It's always of some concern. We were all registered as legislative representatives. At one time, you know, the California Constitution had a provision in it against lobbying. [Laughs] Rorris: Did it! Vasey: It was right there in the Constitution. Morris: Leo Katcher, in his political biography of Warren, comments that in 1945 the GoVsor's- proposed bills for the first time were an interrelated package that made a program. Did this come about by cha%e, or did you and Warren talk this through as rmatter of policy? Vasey: I was not aware of Katcher's comment. If that8s so, I consider it a great compliment. Certainly, there was much discussion in preparation for a legislative session. I went to all the departments and found out what they were working on, what bills they wanted to introduce, and then brought the material back to the Governor. We would talk it over, and out of the whole mass, and talking with other people, he would select the ones he himself wanted to support. Xorris: I brought along a copy of the 1945 budget message. It includss these items for major increases in controllable expenses -- good schools and colleges,. high standards of public,health and industrial safety, humane hospitals and correctional institutions. This, I assume, would be what is meant by a "program?"

Vasey: Well, the budget message, of course, was not my department. That was solely the responsibility of the Department of Finance. Morris: The budget would be based on the legislative program, wouldn 't it? Vasey: Yes, but the budget message was drawn up by the very able and talented director of Finance, James Dean.

Morris : He is spoken of highly by many of our inter- viewees. Since he is no longer with us, could you give us some description of him?

Vasey : He was one of the most outstanding of a number of fine people Warren brought to Sacramento. I found him a pleasure to work with -- one of several people I felt a close relationship,-1 to, There were a number of warm, lasting frie>ships made in those days.

Morris : In preparing a budget message, did Finance figure the amount of income to be expected, relative costs of programs, and determine how much money could be spent by each department? In other words, were there priorities in those days, and did Finance make the allocation decisions?

Vasey : Yes. Thers is never enough money to do everything. Dean would work it through with each department and there would be an eventual compromise. Finance is the most powerful state department. They have many operating activities in addition to the budget, probably had one of the largest staffs. Dean himself was before the legislature often, He, and his top civil service assistant, a man by the name of Fred Links.

That's a name I 've been looking for, to begin interviewing about developments in the Department of Finance. Vasey: He's retired now. For many years he had a home in Sacramento and a beautiful place at Lake 'Tahoe,

Morri s: Referring for a minute to the 1945 health insurance fight, did you ever know a Los Angeles physican, Louis J. Regan? Dr. Cline, who was also at that December 1944 meeting of the California Xedical Association Council, said that a few months later, Warren asked Dr. Regan to bring Dr. Cline to Morris: Sacramento to talk about the health insurance bill, Cline thought this odd, because he was not acquainted#lth-~r. Regan, but had been a spokesman at the December meeting, Vasey: I haven't met Dr. Regan, but I was at that December meeting, Morrist At that meeting, Dr. Cline recalls that Warren promised to wait until after the CMA House of Delegates met to oonsider the health insurance legislative program. Dr. Cline's comment was that the CMA executives felt this was a serious lack of good faith on Warren's parto Vaseyt I remember that they were going to take it to their House of Delegates, but I don't recall Warren agreeing to wait on his announcement, Morrist Senator deLap is often referred to as a staunch supporter of Warren's legislation, He and Warren were both high degree Masons in the Bay Area -- would they have known each other through Masonic affairs? Vasey: I'm not a Mason myself, so I wouldn'tknow of any Masonic relationship between them, Morris: DeLap had been in the legislature quite a while at that point, hand't he? Vasey: Yes, he was a senior member of the senate, He was a strong legislator and quite free of self- interest. He was a member of the Judiciary Committee, which had a number of fine lawyers on it -- Senator Rich and the elder Carter. I used to go to their meetings from time to time, just to listen. There would be remarkable detailed, lucid discussion of fine legal points, He had a law firm in Martinez, too -- Tinning and deLap, it was called, \ Morris: Senator Salsman told us that he and deLap and three or four other senators used to meet for Piorris: lunch with the Governor every week during the 1950 session to discuss how various bills were doing. Would you remember who the other members were? Vasey: I did not attend those meetings, but my recollection is that it was not always the ;same ,group of senators, and that it was more1- casual than weekly. Korris: I thought it was interesting that these informal groups didn't begin until so late in Warren's administration. was there a similar assembly lunch group? Vasey: Possibly. The only group meetings I was involved with were the annual dinners for the legislature. There was one also for the press -- Verne Scoggins handled that. I handled all the details of invitations and regrets for the one for the senators and two for assemblymen.

Itorris: All the assemblymen wouldn't fit into one hotel? _-___C_--Vasey: These were always held at the Governor's Xansion. $jorris: What a nice gesture. That's a beautiful old house. Vasey: Not in very good repair, though. The front steps were falling down. Mrs. Warren threw up hsr hands the first time she saw it.

?;orris: It must have been repaired somewhat, now that it is open to the public as a museum. It looks as if different governor's wives each decorated a room in the style of her particular years. They blend together remarkably well. Vasey: One time one of the guests who happened to be a contractor looked atIttzihd -&he house couldn't be duplicated today=>re are no craftsmen to do some of the kinds of work. Korris: That must be some of the carved moldings and decorated ceilings. Vasey: Dinner was served buffet style from the dining room. They had small tables -- larger than card table size -- set up in the three main rooms and in the wide main hall. Morris: Did any legislators ever come to you, as legislative secretary, to ask for Warren's help in their election campaigns? Vasey: I don't recall any specific instances of anyone coming in and asking the Governor to make a speech in support of their election or anything like that. Personally, I think it's difficult, if not impossible, for one man's success in politics to rub off on another. Or, for that matter, to defeat someone indirectly that way. Roosevelt tried it -- I'm speaking now of Franklin -- and didn't succeed. And I don't think Nixon is going to be successful in using Agnew to try and defeat some Senators." Piorris: I was thinking positively, of the campaign devices of having a picture taken with iJarren, or getting him to appear in public with a candidate. Did anyone come to you for help in things like that? Vasey: Oh, as to that, people were always coming in to have their picture taken with him. And Warren was quite willing to be seen with them in their home territory. Verne Scoggins knows much more about the political aspects of the governor's office than I do. He is the person to talk to about that. In fact, I've never been to a political convention in my life. When Warren went off to a convention, I was the one who stayed home minding the store. He was gone fairly often, at Governors' Conferences and other things. This had its difficulties, becaxse when he was gone, I was working for the lieutenant governor. iviorris: This made a difference in your work?

*Taped during 1970 off-year election campaign. Vasey: Oh, yes. The lieutenant governor was Frederick Houser, and then later, Goodwin Knight. They had ideas of their own.

IWrris : The lieutenant governor was not bound by Warren's policies? They had no agreements on how things were to be done? Vasey: Remember, they'were elected individually, not as a team. The lieutenant governor could do as he wished, sign bills, veto them, grant pardons.

Korris : That's a good point to remember. Pop Small talks about several members of the Governor's staff meeting with Warren to brainstorm the content of major addresseso How did this come about? Vasey: It was already going on when I joined the staff in 1944. I assumed it was a natural thing -- the best way to get the advantage of all the brains and information you can. Yes, there were many talk sessionso As to writing speeches, different people wrote different ones, and some of them Warren wrote himself.

Morris : You've filled in a number of thoughts for us. Thank you. Are there any other comments you'd like to make? Vasey: Only to say that the real legacy of working for Warren was the friendships, the quality of people I knew and worked with.

Norris : Not only were you a remarkable group then, but so many of you have kept right on being active in public service. Maybe we should have a reunion. Vasey: That's a fine ideal

Transcriber: Jane West Final Typist: Gloria Do1a.n INDEX - Beach Vasey

Adult Authority 32 Affiliated Teachers of Los Angeles AFL-CIO 28-30 Agnew, Spiro T. 51 Armstrong, Barbara Assembly, California 18, 20, 23-4, 33, 50 Assembly Ways and Means Committee 33-34 Attorney General (California) 12, 14, 25-26, 32

Belcher, Frank 39 Brown, Edmund G. 28 budget, state 33, 47-48

California Ear Association 16 California Medical Association 29-31, 49 California State Adult Authority 32 California State Department of Finance 8, 47-48 Department of Industrial Relations 28 Department of Mental Hygiene 14 Department of Professional and Vocational Standards 14 Department of Social Welfare 20 California State Fair Boards 38 California Teachers Association 29 Carter, Jesse W. 49 Carter, Oliver 9, 19 Chamberlain, Richard 36-37, 46 Charvatt, Frank 16 Coakley, Frank 36-37, 46 Coakley, Thomas 37, 39 Collier, Randolph 19 Collins, Sam 23, 34-36 Cory, Arthur 29 County Supervisors' Association 11, 36, 46 Courts 16, 34, 36-43 District Court of Appeals 4 Superior 33, 40 Supreme Court (California) 4-5 Supreme Court (US) 42-43 Daniels, Burdette 6, 39 Daniels, Earl 6, 39 Dean, James 48 delap, To H. 19, 49 Democratic Party 21 Distriot Attorneys' Association 44

Eberhart, Ray 29 Eisenhower, Dwight D. 42 gambling 32

Graves, Richard 6, 45-46

Haggerty, Cornelius 27-28 health insurance, 1945 27, 30-32, 35-36, 48-49 Houser, Frederick F. 52

Judicial Council (California) 14, 40-41

Katcher, Leo 47 Kennedy, Hal 3 Klepps, Ralph 14 Knight, Goodwin 46-52

League of California Cities 6, 11-12, 36, 45-46 legislation, state 8-11, 19-21, 27-32, 43+57+7, 49 35, -- -- processing 12-15, 23, 34 Legislative Counsel 12 Links, Fred 48 lobbying 9-12, 22-24, 27-32, 36, 46-47 Los Angeles city & county government 2-5 Los Anueles Times 10, 40 Lyons, Charles 23

MacGregor, Helen 23 Masonic Order 49 Mattoon, Everett 2-3, 5 M'Naughton Rule 43-44 Neal, William 46 Nichols, Ed 14 Nixon, Bichard 51

Olson, Culbert 25 partisan politics 20-22 Public Health League 29

Read, Ben 29 Reagan, Ronald 39 reapportionment (California) 42-43 Began, Dr, Louis J. 48-49 Reid, Nowland M, 2 Republican Party 21 Bich, William 49 Roosevelt, Franklin D. 51

Salsman, Byrl 49 Samish, Arthur He 23 Schottky, Andrew 37-38 Scoggins, Verne 8, 18, 50-51 Senate (California) 18-19, 24, 49-50 Sherwin, Marvin 33-34 Sinai, Dr, Nathan 35-36 Small, Me P. 52 Steinhart, Jesse 38-39 Swain, Judge 4 Sweigert, ~illiam 6, 21

United States Supreme Court 42-43 University of California 30 University of Southern California 1

Warren, Earl 3, 6-7, 12-13, 18-19, 22-24, 28 appointments 38-41 campaigns 21, 25 legislation 30-35, 46-51 Supreme Court 42-43 Warren, Nina (Mrs. Earl) 18-19, 50 Webb, Ernest 28 Welsh, James 38 Werdel, Thomas 21 Whitaker & Baxter, Inc. 29 Williams, Myrtle 20 Wollenberg, Alfred 20, 33-34 Wollenberg, Charles 20

Yorty, Sam 43-44 Younger, Mrs. Evelle 29

Zeigler, Judge 29 Amelia R. Fry

Graduated from the University of Oklahoma, B.A. in psychology and English, M.A. in educational psychology and English, University of Illinois; additional work, University of Chicago, California State University at Hayward. Instructor, freshman English at University of Illinois and at Hiram College. Reporter, suburban daily newspaper, 1966-67.

Interviewer, Regional Oral History Office, 1959--; conducted interview series on University history, woman suffrage, the history of conservation and forestry, public administration and politics. Director, Earl Warren Era Oral History Project, documenting governmental/political history of California 1925-1953; director, Goodwin Knight-Edmund G. Brown Era Project. Author of articles in professional and popular journals; instructor, summer Oral History Institute, University of Vermont, 1975, 1976, and oral history workshops for Oral History. Association and historical agencies; consultant to other oral history projects; oral history editor, Journal of Library History, 1969-1974; secretary, the Oral ~istory~ssociation,1970-1973. Gabrielle Morris

B.A. in economics, Connecticut College, New London ;independent study in journalism , creative writing.

Historian, U.S. Air Force in England, covering Berlin Air Lift,'military agreements, personnel studies, 1951-52.

Research, interviewing, editing on state administration, civic affairs, and industry, Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library, University of California at Berkeley, 1970-present.