Dáil Éireann

DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COMHCHOISTE UM SHLÁINTE JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH Dé Céadaoin, 6 Feabhra 2019 Wednesday, 6 February 2019 The Joint Committee met at 9 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly, Senator Colm Burke, Deputy Bernard J. Durkan, Senator Keith Swanick. Deputy Alan Kelly, Deputy Margaret Murphy O’Mahony, Deputy Kate O’Connell, In attendance: Deputies Boyd Barrett, John Brassil, Jack Chambers, Lisa Chambers, David Cullinane and Jonathan O’Brien and Senator Fintan Warfield. DEPUTY MICHAEL HARTY IN THE CHAIR. 1 JH Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion Chairman: The purpose of this meeting is to allow the Minister and his officials and the interim director general of the HSE and her staff to update members on key healthcare issues. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Minister for Health, Deputy Simon Harris, who is accompanied by the Ministers of State, Deputies Catherine Byrne and Jim Daly. From the Department of Health, I welcome Mr. Jim Breslin, Secretary General. I also welcome the new interim director general of the HSE, Ms Anne O’Connor, who is accompanied by Mr. Liam Woods, Mr. Dean Sullivan and Dr. Peter McKenna. I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defa- mation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Any opening statements made to the committee may be published on its website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Any opening statements that have been made to the committee may be published on its website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite the Minister to make his opening statement. Minister for Health (Deputy Simon Harris): I thank the Chairman for having me and my team appear before the Joint Committee on Health this morning. I look forward to having an opportunity to answer questions on a wide range of issues. I have circulated an opening statement but with the agreement of the committee, I would like to comment at the outset on a few issues related to the National Children’s Hospital and then the Chairman can decide whether I should read the rest of my opening statement or to take it as read. I would like to update the committee on four matters relating to the National Children’s Hospital this morning. First, I wish to confirm that yesterday evening I took the decision to ap- point Mr. Fred Barry as the new chairperson of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board. Mr. Barry has a wealth of experience in delivering major capital projects, particularly in his role as CEO of the National Roads Authority. It is recognised across the House that the National Roads Authority is one of the State agencies that has done a very good job in bringing in many capital projects. Mr. Barry’s record shows him to be a man who went into that agency and really ensured that projects came in on time and on budget. I am very grateful to Mr. Barry for agreeing to take up the role. I think his long track record with the National Roads Authority 2 6 FEBRUARY 2019 coupled with his professional experience and qualifications leaves him very well placed to lead this entity and all its legal responsibilities at what is a crucial time for this landmark project for children’s health care in our country. We had a long discussion on the next issue, the PwC investigation into the spiralling costs and its terms of reference at our previous committee meeting and at other engagements the committee has had with officials. I, of course, heard from members of this committee, from members of the Committee of Public Accounts and from others that there was a view that the terms of reference needed to be made robust and more comprehensive. I have listened very carefully to the committee’s suggestions on that and I have tried to meet them in the revised ver- sion which was also published yesterday evening. This review will now deal with the account- ability of relevant key parties, functions and roles. Obviously any sanctions to be applied to any individuals or people in roles will be a matter for Government, be it by way of the contracts we have with such organisations or by issues regarding board appointments and the likes. It is important that it will also examine the role of the Department of Health and the HSE in terms of making sure that we are comprehensive about roles and responsibilities. Crucially, and this is an issue that Deputy Donnelly raised with me last Tuesday and again this week, which is the importance of PwC also looking at cost mitigation and value for money. On the suggestion of Deputy Donnelly and others, I have also included that in the terms of reference for PwC. My third point relates to the reference in the media this morning to potential cost pressures being highlighted at an earlier stage. Of course, this should not be news to anybody at this committee because by my count the issue of the €61 million of potential cost pressures has been discussed at this committee and at the PAC on at least 11 occasions from a quick tot I did of the transcripts this morning. Far from the figure being concealed, it is explicitly referenced in a briefing note that I provided to this committee in advance of my attendance here last week. This is a very different situation and I need colleagues to be clear on that. There were cost pressures emerging in 2017 but the development board had been told in no uncertain terms that it was important to take measures to mitigate that, that we were not seeking additional Exchequer funding at that stage and that there were a number of things, including some of the suggestions I have heard from members of this committee, including descoping that had to be considered is a very different situation from the one we found ourselves in at the end of August of last year when it became apparent to me that there was going to be a need to apprise Government of its options and indeed to seek a substantial additional amount of Exchequer funding as well. The fourth and final issue is what was going on between August and December. I am some- what frustrated at the characterisation I have heard of this. I have heard a characterisation that the Minister knew in August and nothing happened until November. Nothing could be further from the truth and the paper trail and testimony from my officials, from members of the Na- tional Paediatric Hospital Development Board, from the HSE and from my own mouth at this committee last week show that not to be the case. When we talk about August, we are talking about 27 August, effectively the end of August and start of the September where I became aware of the potential significant cost increase. The Secretary General made it clear to this committee that he was on leave until the start of Septem- ber. We are talking about roughly the start of September when it became clear that there was a significant emerging capital issue. We then had a situation whereby there was a significant level of negotiation ongoing with commercial entities to try to drive down the cost, exactly what one would expect the National Paediatric Hospital Development board to do as the legal entity that had the contracts and the only legal entity, by the way, that could negotiate. Neither the De- 3 JH partment nor I could negotiate. The legal power in respect of the contract and the negotiations rested with and rest today with the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board. The commercial process of negotiation was going on. I need to be clear that this idea that I and I alone knew about the good manufacturing process, GMP, facility does not stand up to any scrutiny. A Government decision was made when the Fine Gael and Labour parties were in government and I believe it was the right decision that the procurement process should be two phased, that Phase A would be in respect of the excavation works and Phase B would be the substantive works. It was always going to be essential that before one could award a contract for Phase B, there had to be the finalisation of the GMP facility.

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