BRITISH-IRISH INTER- PARLIAMENTARY BODY COMHLACHT IDIR- PHARLAIMINTEACH NA BREATAINE AGUS NA hÉIREANN _________________________ TWENTY-NINTH PLENARY CONFERENCE 18 and 19 October 2004 Chepstow, Monmouthshire _______________________ OFFICIAL REPORT (Final Revised Edition) (Produced by the British-Irish Parliamentary Reporting Association) Suggested amendments or corrections will be considered by the British-Irish Parliamentary Reporting Association. They should be sent to: The Editor Room 248 Parliament Buildings Stormont Belfast BT4 3XX Tel: 028 90521135 e-mail: [email protected] to arrive no later than 3 December 2004 IN ATTENDANCE CO-CHAIRMEN Mr David Winnick MP Mr Séamus Kirk TD (Acting) MEMBERS AND ASSOCIATE MEMBERS Mr Harry Barnes MP The Lord Glentoran CBE DL Senator Paschal Mooney Senator Paul Bradford Mr Dominic Grieve MP Mr Arthur Morgan TD Mr Johnny Brady TD Mr John Griffiths AM Senator Francie O’Brien Rt Hon the Lord Brooke Deputy Graham Guille Mr William O’Brien MP of Sutton Mandeville CH Senator Paul Coghlan The Baroness Harris of Richmond Mr Jim O’Keeffe TD Dr Jerry Cowley TD Senator Brian Hayes Mr Ned O’Keeffe TD Mr Bruce Crawford MSP Ms Cecilia Keaveney TD Mr Séamus Pattison TD Mr Seymour Crawford TD Mr Andy King MP Mr Chris Ruane MP Mr Tony Cunningham MP Dr Dai Lloyd AM Senator Brendan Ryan Dr Jimmy Devins TD Mr Elfyn Llwyd MP Mr Joe Sherlock TD Deputy Maurice Dubras Rt Hon Andrew Mackay MP The Lord Smith of Clifton The Lord Dubs Dr John Marek AM The Lord Temple-Morris Ms Helen Eadie MSP Rt Hon Michael Mates MP Mr Gareth Thomas MP Mr John Ellis TD Rt Hon Sir Brian Mawhinney MP Deputy Mike Torode Mr Jeff Ennis MP Mrs Rosemary McKenna MP CBE Mr Murray Tosh MSP Senator Geraldine Feeney Mr Michael McMahon MSP Mr Robert Walter MP Mr Donald J Gelling CBE MLC Mr Kevin McNamara MP Senator Mary White Mr Mike German AM Mr David Melding AM Senator Diarmuid Wilson Mr Jim Glennon TD ALSO IN ATTENDANCE (FOR ALL OR PART OF PROCEEDINGS) The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr Paul Murphy MP The Minister for Health and Social Services, National Assembly for Wales, Ms Jane Hutt AM The President of the Nordic Council, Mr Gabriel Romanus STEERING COMMITTEE Co-Chairmen Mr David Winnick MP Members Mr Kevin McNamara MP Mr Séamus Kirk TD Mr Michael Mates MP Mr Jim O’Keeffe TD OFFICIALS Joint Clerks Ms Alda Barry, British Clerk Mr John Hamilton, Irish Clerk Clerks of the Devolved Institutions Ms Alison Dickie Mr Peter Kellam Committee Clerks to the Body Committee A: Sovereign Matters Ms Maeve Clery Mr Huw Yardley Committee B: European Affairs Mr Mike Clark Mr David Keating Committee C: Economic Ms Maeve Clery Mr Mike Hennessy Committee D: Environmental and Social Ms Audrey Nelson Mr David Keating Secretariat Mrs Veronica Carr Sir Michael Davies KCB Miss Amanda Hay Mrs Andrea Pull Media Adviser Mr Mike Burns British-Irish Parliamentary Dr Bronagh Allison Reporting Association reporting team Mr James Galbraith for 29th Plenary Meeting Dr Meinir Harris Mr Simon Tierney Ms Aoibhinn Treanor Ms Vivien Wilson As has been said at our meetings there has been a very welcome BRITISH-IRISH improvement in relations between our Islands and between our INTER-PARLIAMENTARY Parliamentarians and the atmosphere that prevailed in the early years has changed so much for the better and for the benefit of all. BODY The work of the Body has played a significant role in this process. I hope that in the near future the Body will be working again with its full membership from its constituent parliaments and assemblies. It has been a great pleasure working as Co-Chairman with David Winnick, with all Members of the Steering Committee and COMHLACHT with the full membership of the Body and I appreciate that co-operation and support. I commend the Joint Clerks and all the IDIR-PHARLAIMINTEACH Secretariat for their first-class work over the years. NA BREATAINE AGUS NA I regret that I am unable to attend in Chepstow due to HÉIREANN Departmental commitments but I hope to meet with the Body at the next Plenary in Ireland in early Spring. With kindest regards.” TWENTY-NINTH PLENARY I am sure that we should respond — or I should do so — CONFERENCE and send him our congratulations on appointment to the Government. Pending the appointment of a new Irish Co-Chairman, Mr Séamus Kirk TD will be Acting Co-Chairman for Monday 18 October 2004 the session with your approval. That is unanimous, you see, Séamus. The Body met at 9.37 am. I have to inform the Body that, in accordance with rule 2(a), the following Associate Members have accepted the invitation of the Steering Committee to assume the powers and responsibilities of Members for the whole of PLENARY BUSINESS the session: from Ireland, Senator Paul Bradford, Senator Paul Coghlan, Senator Geraldine Feeney, Mr Ned O’Keeffe The Co-Chairman (Mr David Winnick MP): Ihave TD, Senator Mary White and Senator Diarmuid Wilson; a few announcements to make, but, in welcoming you, I am from the United Kingdom, Mr Dominic Grieve MP, sure that we all agree that we are delighted to be in Wales. Baroness Harris of Richmond, Mr Andy King MP and Mr Gareth Thomas MP; from Scotland, Mr Bruce I remind everyone to turn off pagers, bleepers, mobile Crawford MSP, Ms Helen Eadie MSP and Mr Michael phones and any other form of the latest technology that McMahon MSP; from the States of Jersey, Deputy could interfere with our proceedings. Nor is it our practice Maurice Dubras; and from the States of Guernsey, for newspapers to be read, any more than it would be in our Deputy Graham Guille. respective places of work. I also remind Members that the Body’s proceedings do not attract parliamentary privilege. I also inform Members that at the conclusion of item 4 there will be a group photograph for which we would No new Members have been appointed to the Body like everyone to be present at 3.30 pm. since the previous plenary. I take this opportunity to congratulate my former Co-Chairman Brendan Smith TD who has been appointed to Government, as well as former Members Tony Killeen TD and Conor Lenihan ADOPTION OF PROPOSED TD, who have also been made Ministers. PROGRAMME OF BUSINESS I shall read a letter from former Co-Chairman Smith, who, as I say, is now a Minister of State, to Séamus Kirk, The Co-Chairman (Mr David Winnick MP): The the Acting Co-Chairman. He wrote: proposed Programme of Business has been duly “Dear Seamus circulated. I move that the proposed order of business be adopted. I wish to convey to you, Co-Chairman David and all your colleagues on the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body every good Programme of Business agreed. wishes for the 29th Plenary in Chepstow. I am quite sure that you will have a successful meeting and that your deliberations will be fruitful. As a Member of the Body since 1993 and Co-Chairman since 2002 I have the fondest memories of politicians from different traditions and backgrounds working together in a very constructive and positive manner. 1 Monday 18 October 2004 RECENT POLITICAL DEVELOPMENTS welfare and other issues. The sooner we have the elected Members of the Assembly back doing their work, the better. The Co-Chairman (Mr David Winnick MP): The first 9.45 am item on the agenda — the debate on the political motion — will take most, if not all, of the morning. However, there are two major stumbling blocks: the Normally the majority of those present wish to speak, continued existence of the IRA and the fact that and while it is neither my intention nor Séamus’s to apply paramilitaries on both sides are still endorsing vigilante a time limit at this stage, we urge earlier speakers not to groups in their communities. There is much less violence, speak for too long. Otherwise those who are reluctant to but the level is still unacceptable with knee-cappings, speak at the beginning of the proceedings may start to shootings and beatings, and somehow we must get a grip put their hands up at a rather late stage, and although we on that problem. It is mostly for the IRA to say that the war welcome those Members’ contributions, a time limit is over and that it will not be involved in any form of may have to be introduced. Therefore a maximum time military action ever again. If we could get over that hurdle, limit of six minutes is fair, and I may have to take action in everything else that depends on that would follow. the case of anyone who speaks for more than 20 minutes. It is so easy to say that there are faults on both sides Mr Michael Mates MP: I beg to move but on the whole, since the Good Friday Agreement, the Government and the Irish Government have delivered That the Body notes the recent talks held at Leeds Castle between what they promised — the prisoners are all released, Prime Minister Tony Blair, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern and the parties; and more concessions are being made to people on the looks forward to the further discussions planned proving fruitful and to the restoration of the powers devolved under the Good Friday run. Yet, behind all of that, aside from two important but Agreement; notes the intensification of contacts by both Governments largely symbolic destructions of weapons, the IRA has with all parties, including the recent meeting between the Democratic not moved.