Dáil Éireann

DÁIL ÉIREANN AN ROGHCHOISTE UM THITHÍOCHT, PLEANÁIL AGUS RIALTAS ÁITIÚIL SELECT COMMITTEE ON HOUSING, PLANNING AND LOCAL GOVERN- MENT Dé Céadaoin, 15 Samhain 2017 Wednesday, 15 November 2017 Tháinig an Roghchoiste le chéile ag 9 a.m. The Select Committee met at 9 a.m. Comhaltaí a bhí i láthair / Members present: Teachtaí Dála / Deputies Mick Barry,* Pat Casey, Damien English (Minister of State at the De- partment of Housing, Planning and Local Government), Eoghan Murphy (Minister for Housing, Plan- ning and Local Government), Fergus O’Dowd, Eoin Ó Broin, John Paul Phelan (Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Lo- cal Government). * In éagmais / In the absence of Deputy Ruth Coppinger. Teachta / Deputy Maria Bailey sa Chathaoir / in the Chair. 1 SHPLG Estimates for Public Services 2017 Vote 34 - Housing, Planning and Local Government (Revised) Chairman: In accordance with standard procedures agreed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges for paperless committees, all documentation for the meeting has been circulated to members on the document database. The purpose of today’s meeting is to consider the further Revised Estimates for 2017 for the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Govern- ment, referred by the Dáil to this committee on 17 October. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, and the Ministers of State, Deputies Damien English and John Paul Phelan, and all the officials from the Department. As previously agreed by members, the format for today’s meeting will see members given five minutes to ask questions, with five minutes for a response. I will call members in the order in which they indicate they wish to speak. In accordance with Standing Order 184, discussion for this part of the meeting should be confined to the items constituting the Supplementary Estimate, which will conclude at 10.15 a.m. Would the Minister like to make an opening statement? Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government (Deputy Eoghan Murphy): I welcome the opportunity to discuss with the select committee this morning my Department’s further Revised Estimate for 2017. I am accompanied by Ministers of State Deputies Damien English and John Paul Phelan and Department officials Mr. John McCarthy, Ms Mary Hurley, Ms Maria Graham, Ms Lorraine O’Donohue, Mr. David Walsh, Mr. Maurice Coughlan, Ms Theresa Donohue and Ms Janet Jacobs. The 2017 Revised Estimate for my Department was published last December and was con- sidered in select committee last March. That Estimate is now being revised to do two things: first, to take account of the transfer of community functions from my Department to the newly established Department of Rural and Community Development, under the leadership of my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Michael Ring; and second, to reflect the Government decision on the future funding model for Irish Water and the planned refund of water charge payments made by domestic customers. I will take the community transfer element first. On 14 June 2017, the Taoiseach announced his intention to establish a new Department to undertake responsibilities in relation to rural and community development matter, to be led by Deputy Michael Ring. This has resulted in the transfer of community-related functions from my Department and of associated spending subheads from its Vote. The two community business units which have transferred to the new Department cover: community and voluntary supports and programmes, and social inclusion and communities. These business units have a budget of €77.5 million for 2017, including administration costs. The transfer comprises a total of €67 million in current expenditure and €10.5 million in capital expenditure, together with appropriations-in-aid amounting to €6.3 million. I have circulated with my statement a table that summarises the financial transfers, which in accordance with established practice cover all spending in the areas concerned in the full year 2017. In addition, the relevant staff implementing these programmes have moved to work in the new Department. 2 15 NOVEMBER 2017 Moving on to the funding for Irish Water, the new Estimate for 2017 also reflects the Gov- ernment decision on the future funding model for Irish Water and the planned refunds to domestic customers. The Water Services Bill 2017, currently in the Seanad, provides for the repeal of the 2014 domestic water charging regime and introduces a new programme focused on the promotion of water conservation, under which a levy will apply in certain circumstances for usage of water above a reasonable threshold. In making these changes, provision is made in the Bill for the extinguishing of liabilities under the current regime and the making of refunds to the 990,000 customers who paid in accordance with the 2014 Act. This will give rise to a new funding model for Irish Water which is underpinned by the Bill. The Bill thus reflects the recommendations of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Future Funding of Domestic Water Services, which were adopted by both Houses last April. Accordingly, a provision of some €293 million for payment to Irish Water has been made in the Revised Estimate, in programme B - water services. This figure includes the €173 million needed to pay refunds to the 990,000 domestic customers. There are also administrative costs associated with the refund process, estimated to amount to almost €5.9 million. A further €114 million is being provided to cover the additional funding required by Irish Water arising from the extension of the suspension of domestic water charges to the end of 2017. In conclusion, following the transfer of community functions and the making of the new provisions for Irish Water, the gross budget for my Department in 2017 now stands at €1.995 billion. Taking into account the changes in those two programme areas, this represents an in- crease of €215 million on the Revised Estimate published last December. I am of course happy to discuss the details with the committee. Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: I thank the Minister. I know it is too late to change this but some of us have a concern that the transfer of the final bits of community out of his Department, particularly those that relate to community development functions within urban local authority areas, could have a detrimental impact on the delivery of those services. I am aware that ultimately, that is not a decision for the Minister or his Department. I wish to put on record, however, that a lot of us would have preferred to see those functions remain in the Department that deals with local government, particularly because they are now also tied up with the local community development committees and the social inclusion committee activation programme. The Revised Estimates basically have three elements: The transfer of the funds for those final remaining bits of community from the Minister’s Department to the other Department; the additional funding for refunds; and the funding for Irish Water for this year. Can the Minister confirm that I am correct with a “Yes” or “No” answer? I know that is what he has just said, but I would like it to be very clear. In terms of the additional money for the refunds and for the funding of Irish Water, can the Minister confirm the source of that funding? It is obviously not coming from within the original Estimate for his Department. Deputy Eoghan Murphy: In respect of the Deputy’s concern about the transfer of the community function to the new Department under the Minister, Deputy Michael Ring, and that urban element of it, the Minister, Deputy Ring, and I have a very close working relationship. We both deal with local authorities. Local government comes under my Department but given the role that the Minister, Deputy Ring, has in the new Department, local authorities will be key to that. We have a very close working relationship. In any transfer of functions there is always some difficulty; whenever a new Department is being set up it takes a bit of time. Staff have to relocate. All of that sometimes creates delays or difficulties but we are doing our best to make 3 SHPLG sure that we work together and that there will be minimal disruption to any funds or activities that are transferring from my Department out that of the Minister, Deputy Ring. In respect of the Deputy’s questions about what we are doing with the Revised Estimate, yes, it is about transferring the funding, staff and responsibilities for community into the new Department. It is also providing those amounts for the payments of refunds to be made, the administrative costs for those payments and the additional money that must be expended because of the continued suspension of water charges for this year, which was not previously allocated. As for where the money is coming from to do that, it is additional Exchequer funding that is available. In other words, it is taxpayer funding. Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: I thank the Minister for his comment on the transfer of the community function. Although we will not have responsibility for the new Department there may be a role for this committee to invite in the Minister, Deputy Ring, maybe once a year or so, to discuss the management of those elements. The only reason I am saying this is since the re- structuring of the old community development programmes from Pobal by the former Minister, Commissioner Phil Hogan, they are much more integrated into the local authority structure and policy. We had a very interesting discussion here yesterday about rates. Part of the difficulty with rates is that they are split between two Departments, Housing, Planning and Local Government and Justice and Equality.

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